From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Dec 1 08:09:03 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 08:09:03 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an educationbe?" In-Reply-To: <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com> Alfredo, A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to learn (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active force in learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the concepts (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky school: 1) As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out with the help of an adult, it is NOT independent 2) People can independently bring about collaborative (intermental action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist within the Vygotsky school. To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. As Zackerman says: Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the adult disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and purpose. The key question shifts to become: What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY structure (intermental) action. I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School exploration of developmental paths. Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration of others. Note that both alternatives are offering the key to answering -what is education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into this open question Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an educationbe?" Alfredo, ? WHAT is education. This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing stream. On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of (intermental) collaboration. Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of intermental collaboration. Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to *endure*. What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving adult as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a thing of inherent value. THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school age). So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next period emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and *enduring* form of collaboration. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education be?" Hi all, I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue 3 lead article. ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal reading of 3 articles:? Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's reading of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, has to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most importantly, ?the question is also about what education could instead be as possibility, as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are necessary: we need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as much as we need a notion of what a good education could be. Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading for the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I think we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article (recently mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition brings in is, in my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for connecting the two questions posed above, the one on the facts of education and the one on possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter question on possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability to learn is. She writes: "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what abilities children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular developmental potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm in childhood development" Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and the desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are *educability* and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies in the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for many reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on age that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses the connection between communication and generalization, a connection that became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and generalization, in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the "internalisation" way of languaging it). The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. Alfredo From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Dec 1 12:21:42 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 12:21:42 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com> References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> Alfredo, Since you opened a new thread for the Zukerman article -in particular ? I will highlight a central question from page 17 that is organizing the article for the reader?s ability to respond. The last paragraph on page 17 opens with: Just what is learning collaboration? The answer given: It can be (understood) in two ways. It can be seen as a sort of scaffolding temporarily needed for mental development ? until children aquire the ability to apply scientific concepts INDEPENDENTLY, to frame and solve problems demanding theoretical thinking without the help of a teacher. However, learning collaboration can also be (interpreted) not as an ancillary developmental tool, not as an EXTERNAL removable support created in the course of building the mental ediface, but as an important part of this ediface, as A VALUABLE ABILITY ESSENTIAL TO HUMANS AT ANY POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE. It is this 2nd version of (learning collaboration) as a valuable (intermental ability) that continues and is universal, that this paper is highlighting for our further inquiry into Just what is learning collaboration? As an aspect of answering, Just what is education? A four way back and forth co-generation of genetic phenomenology Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: December 1, 2016 8:09 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to learn (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active force in learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the concepts (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky school: 1) As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out with the help of an adult, it is NOT independent 2) People can independently bring about? collaborative (intermental action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist within the Vygotsky school. To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. As Zackerman says: Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the adult disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and purpose. The key question shifts to become: What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY structure (intermental) action. I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School exploration of developmental paths. Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration of others. Note that both alternatives ?are offering the key to answering -what is education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into this open question Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an educationbe?" Alfredo, ? WHAT is education. This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing stream. On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of (intermental) collaboration. Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of intermental collaboration. Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to *endure*. What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving adult as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a thing of inherent value. THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school age). So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next period emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and *enduring* form of collaboration. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education be?" Hi all, I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue 3 lead article. ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal reading of 3 articles:? Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's reading of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, has to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most importantly, ?the question is also about what education could instead be as possibility, as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are necessary: we need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as much as we need a notion of what a good education could be. Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading for the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I think we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article (recently mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition brings in is, in my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for connecting the two questions posed above, the one on the facts of education and the one on possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter question on possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability to learn is. She writes: "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what abilities children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular developmental potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm in childhood development" Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and the desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are *educability* and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies in the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for many reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on age that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses the connection between communication and generalization, a connection that became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and generalization, in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the "internalisation" way of languaging it). The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. Alfredo From carrie.allen@sri.com Thu Dec 1 13:19:52 2016 From: carrie.allen@sri.com (carrie.allen@sri.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 21:19:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> Hi all, Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in regarding other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and science. First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying to suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow ideas about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There are certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s work at Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s work at the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young people in the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who utilize the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced ways of being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means by which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not entirely sure how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. -- CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. STEM Researcher SRI International Center for Technology in Learning (650) 859-5262 Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 Skype: carrie.allen_9 On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com" wrote: So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our inquiry. This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of learning. Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Edward Wall Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started Larry There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I?m not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a teacher at one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the evidence isn?t clear) Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is put off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according to some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this is a bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling for the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). Ed > On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: > > The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it possible we are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation that were not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or incarnate deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. > If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural imaginaries) that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture well-being? > > Exemplary models that point in a certain direction > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Huw Lloyd > Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > > Alfredo, > > Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems inherent > in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues can be > transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that can be > achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for "good > behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real problem > solving. For "real" education, we would need something like Davydov's > system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". There > are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important > implications. > > Best, > Huw > > > > On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > >> Huw, >> >> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, social) >> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the formation >> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all educational >> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather should be >> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, *pathological* (or >> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and >> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some young >> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was Mike who >> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question is, will >> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the double bind >> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only include the >> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a higher order >> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to grow >> rather than come to stall). >> >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Huw Lloyd >> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >> >> Alfredo, >> >> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is another >> matter. >> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, because there >> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is educational -- >> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an Illich >> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it just >> takes a different course. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >> >>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates to this >>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to >>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, that >>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between two, >> not >>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and >> Phillip's >>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as all we >> do. >>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have wonderfully >>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in maths, >> but >>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever that >> best >>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and context that >>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives and >>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it so that >>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, according >>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a hollowed-out >>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had illusion >>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities to >>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but also a >>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown in >> people >>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we have a >>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? Not just >>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. >>> >>> Alfredo >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of White, Phillip >>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>> >>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these >> examples >>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at where she >> is >>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a looking >> back >>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then setting a >>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, so >> yeah, >>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of present >>> activities to attain future goals. >>> >>> >>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you". >>> >>> >>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely on >> their >>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all about >>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people like me >>> do. >>> >>> >>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in this >>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. >>> >>> >>> phillip >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of David Kellogg >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>> >>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty mental >>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles I have >> a >>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing rather >> than >>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is >>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense of some >>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on tenses, and >> the >>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in and out >> of >>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. >>> >>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the way >> the >>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see >>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at what the >>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this simply >>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take simple >> present >>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it because >>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the >> figured >>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is youth? >>> >>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very much a >>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" you >> often >>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". >>> >>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? >>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to find >> out >>> if anybody really cares. >>> >>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: both >> the >>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of statistical >>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the morning >> after >>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of those >> black >>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but couldn't be >>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class voters" who >>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North Carolina >>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently knowing how >>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented as >>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would be >> part >>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that use >>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the impossible >>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times without >> any >>> memory at all). >>> >>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together you >> notice >>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your >> question, >>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend to >> change >>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On the one >>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too wholly >>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of these >> moments >>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in >> itself. >>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and objects >> in >>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Macquarie University >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>> wrote: >>> >>>> David, >>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this topic, >> but >>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection between >>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged?interactants >> view >>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is >> largely >>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians as >>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be interesting >> to >>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each >> other >>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of connecting >>> the >>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to >> clarify >>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential elections, >> and >>>> what not. >>>> >>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and Halliday on >>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in ?basic >>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has said >>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As you?d >>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what he >>> calls >>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain is >>> more >>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he analyzes >> tense >>>> and aspect. >>>> >>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar has a >>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage based, >>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I think >>> there >>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m not >>> smart >>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection must >> be >>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? ethnographers >> are >>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is raising >>> this >>>> issue. >>>> >>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with the >>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that the >>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may say >> that >>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school was >>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I got to >>> the >>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin under >>> the >>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in Chapter 8 >> of >>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. >>>> >>>> I?ll end it there. >>>> >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Henry: >>>>> >>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and >>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the >>>> different >>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker somehow >>> sees >>>> it >>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space within >>>> space). >>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and >>>> happenings. >>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's >>>> temporally >>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that >>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either >> proleptically >>> or >>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article we >>> are >>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three >> weeks >>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into >> the >>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has been >>>> (past) >>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. >>>>> >>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me >> that >>>> the >>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That is, >> the >>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more and >>>> less >>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example in >>>> this >>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the >> task >>>> of >>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, the >>>> scope, >>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science identities >> and >>>> the >>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this >>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed out a >>>> little >>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the damn >>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing the >>>> other: >>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some task >>> that >>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space >> and >>>> not >>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way you >>> dig >>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. >>>>> >>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the >>>> article: >>>>> >>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans", >>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP classes) >>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or what >>>> Eckhart >>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', >>> 'gangbangers') >>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and what >>> they >>>>> think about themselves) >>>>> >>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are >>>> probably >>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really do >>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). Different >>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of the >>>> school >>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers and >>>> groups >>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's >>> always >>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the >> data >>>> is >>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against what >> is >>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of >>>>> intervention is. >>>>> >>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured by >>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that just >> an >>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words (although >>> maybe >>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds for >>>> hope? >>>>> >>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own >>>> *history*, >>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* it >>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances existing >>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of all >>> dead >>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living." >>>>> >>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a >>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Macquarie University >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> All, >>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I >> wanted >>>> to >>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera John-Steiner >> and >>>> her >>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating Mathematics: >>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers to >>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within these >>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and >> Reuben?s >>>> book >>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real (working) >>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we call >>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching of >>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and could >> be >>>>>> relevant to this discussion. >>>>>> Henry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Margaret >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave it >> to >>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous term >>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments about >>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place of >>>>>> identity. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of >> "model >>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM subjects >>> would >>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with >> identifying >>>>>> with >>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to find >>>> out" >>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is >>>>>> foregrounded >>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background >> social >>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at the >>>> role >>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about >>>> unknowns. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set of >>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such that >>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable within >>> these >>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with the >>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < >>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for the >>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed Out.? >>> We >>>>>> also >>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream of >>>>>>>> thinking here! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas about >>> the >>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we would >> like >>> to >>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students >> were >>>>>> making >>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them >>> through >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured >>> worlds >>>>>> are >>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us >> reflected >>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty >> serious >>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what >> theories >>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of >> ?exemplars? >>>> we >>>>>>>> might turn to. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < >> lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably sens >> as >>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning and >>>>>> sense) >>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. >>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of (hollowed-out) >>>> meaning >>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for >>>> developing a >>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. >>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of >> social >>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about improving >>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of the >>>> study >>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary >>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, can >>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section (identity-in-context) >>> to >>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured worlds). >>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of history-in-person. >>> That >>>> is >>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of person >>> one >>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. >>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the >>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries (figured >>>>>> worlds) >>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local practices >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially and >>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are >>>>>> recognized >>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological >>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* to >>>>>> *what* >>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we >> take. >>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn >>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper ethical >>>> turn >>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. >>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as well >>> as >>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as >>> beacons >>>> of >>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the >> neoliberal >>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from >> their >>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From: mike cole >>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM >>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >> Re-started >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might send >>> them >>>>>>>>> here: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web >> site >>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to implement. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < >>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and >>> Science >>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret >>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so during the >>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I shared >>> the >>>>>>>>>> link >>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion to a >>>> halt >>>>>>>>>> until >>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret and >>>> Carrie >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, but I >>>> also >>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves as >>> soon >>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a discussion >> of >>> an >>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An >> American >>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" >>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark day >>> for >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some >> grounds >>>> for >>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home >> now, >>>> as >>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of >> mind" >>>> and >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal >>>>>>>>>> organisation of >>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to >> Trump's >>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of everyday >>>> life. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on >> women's >>>>>>>>>> scholar >>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to the >>>>>>>>>> discussions >>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I >> hope >>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 >>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of those >>>> still >>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins us >>> next >>>>>>>>>> week! >>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole >>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 >>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would be >>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance at >> the >>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade >> into >>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have until >>> next >>>>>>>>>> week >>>>>>>>>> to think about it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to >> catch >>>> up! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that the >>> data >>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was the >>>>>>>>>> processes >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the >>>>>> externally >>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study using >>>>>>>>>> theories >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your >>> position. >>>> as >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if you >> are >>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point (in >>> the >>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the >>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I >>>> think >>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it could >>> be >>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the adult >>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? that >> this >>>>>>>>>> narrative >>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather >> could >>>> be >>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in >> particular >>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american >> education >>>>>>>>>> began? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen >> study, >>>> what >>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, >>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow >>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning and >>>>>>>>>> sense. I >>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes >> *direction* >>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of depends >>> on >>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. >>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you and >>> me) >>>>>>>>>> way of >>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical >> ways >>> of >>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the >>> *historical-in-person*. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the description >> of >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing >>> circumstances* >>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The article says: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other >>> Sociocultural >>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that >> is, >>>>>>>>>> learning >>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a >>> particular >>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not stable or >>> fixed. >>>>>> As >>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too may >>> the >>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & Skinner, >>>>>> 1997). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity processes >>> that >>>>>>>>>> start >>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are *external* >>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the >>> importance >>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or primordially >> to >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a gap >> in >>>> our >>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* >> and >>>>>>>>>> highly >>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in actual*ity. >>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the >>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, >>> unsure >>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" >>>> questions >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be working >>> on. >>>> In >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a moment >>> which >>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big >>> Bang. >>>>>> But >>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start >> (the >>>> Big >>>>>>>>>> Bang >>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention the >>>> origins >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> life). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just >>>> thoughtfully >>>>>>>>>> sent >>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper leaves a >>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>> big >>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap is >>>>>> largely >>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, >> 'identity' >>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to be >>>>>>>>>> sustained." >>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good student, >>> though >>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest, >>>>>>>>>> excitement, >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." (193) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm >>> confident', >>>>>>>>>> 'I'm >>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted in >> the >>>>>>>>>> context >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, their >>>>>>>>>> statements >>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for >>> being >>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity >> characteristics >>> of >>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, >> do >>> it >>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." >> (193) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by >>>> society", >>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context of >>> the >>>>>>>>>> figured >>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to go >>>>>> against >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's >>> views >>>> as >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that contradicts >>> my >>>>>>>>>> data: >>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the >>> theory >>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also >> don't >>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I think >> the >>>>>> word >>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and >> engagement >>>> as >>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter easily, >> do >>>> the >>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than >> others >>>> and >>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is >>>> actually >>>>>>>>>> "I" >>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking >>> about, >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation >> between >>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the activity >> at >>>>>> hand >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world of >>>>>>>>>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a good >>>>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in >> both >>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky >>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a >>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and "you" >>>>>>>>>> relationship >>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I >> can >>>> make >>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, >>>>>>>>>> particularly >>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number and >> a >>>>>> class >>>>>>>>>> over >>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the >>> interpersonal >>>>>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me like a >>>>>> strange >>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) somewhere >>>> between >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I >>>> think >>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can >> probably >>>> find >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the >>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to >>>> (Vygotsky) >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language at >>> one >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) the >>>> moment >>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying clauses >>>> ("I'm >>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can >> pull >>>> this >>>>>>>>>> off") >>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, >> which >>> is >>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< >>> http://www.tandfonline >>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful >> paper >>>>>>>>>> (which >>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and >>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret >>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science >>>>>>>>>> Education >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the >>> whole >>>>>>>>>> issue, >>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie together >>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity in >>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> case). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after US >>>>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). >>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I >>>>>>>>>>>> share the link>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also attach it >> as >>>>>>>>>> PDF. >>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Thu Dec 1 14:23:22 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 22:23:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com>, <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> Message-ID: <1480631001028.60427@iped.uio.no> Thanks Carrie for contributing. In Spanish we say "mejor tarde que nunca." I take the freedom, and in case we had not yet enough papers to read, of attaching an article by Angela Calabrese Barton, since you mention her work as an example. W-M Roth, who co-supervised my PhD thesis, often referred me to her when writing for/thinking about science education. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of carrie.allen@sri.com Sent: 01 December 2016 22:19 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started Hi all, Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in regarding other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and science. First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying to suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow ideas about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There are certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s work at Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s work at the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young people in the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who utilize the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced ways of being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means by which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not entirely sure how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. -- CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. STEM Researcher SRI International Center for Technology in Learning (650) 859-5262 Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 Skype: carrie.allen_9 On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com" wrote: So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our inquiry. This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of learning. Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Edward Wall Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started Larry There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I?m not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a teacher at one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the evidence isn?t clear) Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is put off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according to some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this is a bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling for the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). Ed > On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: > > The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it possible we are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation that were not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or incarnate deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. > If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural imaginaries) that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture well-being? > > Exemplary models that point in a certain direction > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Huw Lloyd > Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > > Alfredo, > > Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems inherent > in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues can be > transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that can be > achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for "good > behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real problem > solving. For "real" education, we would need something like Davydov's > system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". There > are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important > implications. > > Best, > Huw > > > > On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > >> Huw, >> >> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, social) >> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the formation >> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all educational >> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather should be >> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, *pathological* (or >> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and >> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some young >> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was Mike who >> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question is, will >> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the double bind >> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only include the >> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a higher order >> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to grow >> rather than come to stall). >> >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Huw Lloyd >> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >> >> Alfredo, >> >> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is another >> matter. >> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, because there >> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is educational -- >> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an Illich >> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it just >> takes a different course. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >> >>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates to this >>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to >>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, that >>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between two, >> not >>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and >> Phillip's >>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as all we >> do. >>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have wonderfully >>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in maths, >> but >>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever that >> best >>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and context that >>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives and >>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it so that >>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, according >>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a hollowed-out >>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had illusion >>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities to >>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but also a >>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown in >> people >>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we have a >>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? Not just >>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. >>> >>> Alfredo >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of White, Phillip >>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>> >>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these >> examples >>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at where she >> is >>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a looking >> back >>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then setting a >>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, so >> yeah, >>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of present >>> activities to attain future goals. >>> >>> >>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you". >>> >>> >>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely on >> their >>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all about >>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people like me >>> do. >>> >>> >>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in this >>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. >>> >>> >>> phillip >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of David Kellogg >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>> >>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty mental >>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles I have >> a >>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing rather >> than >>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is >>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense of some >>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on tenses, and >> the >>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in and out >> of >>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. >>> >>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the way >> the >>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see >>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at what the >>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this simply >>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take simple >> present >>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it because >>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the >> figured >>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is youth? >>> >>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very much a >>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" you >> often >>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". >>> >>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? >>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to find >> out >>> if anybody really cares. >>> >>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: both >> the >>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of statistical >>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the morning >> after >>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of those >> black >>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but couldn't be >>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class voters" who >>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North Carolina >>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently knowing how >>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented as >>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would be >> part >>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that use >>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the impossible >>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times without >> any >>> memory at all). >>> >>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together you >> notice >>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your >> question, >>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend to >> change >>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On the one >>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too wholly >>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of these >> moments >>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in >> itself. >>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and objects >> in >>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Macquarie University >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>> wrote: >>> >>>> David, >>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this topic, >> but >>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection between >>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged?interactants >> view >>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is >> largely >>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians as >>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be interesting >> to >>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each >> other >>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of connecting >>> the >>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to >> clarify >>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential elections, >> and >>>> what not. >>>> >>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and Halliday on >>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in ?basic >>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has said >>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As you?d >>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what he >>> calls >>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain is >>> more >>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he analyzes >> tense >>>> and aspect. >>>> >>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar has a >>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage based, >>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I think >>> there >>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m not >>> smart >>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection must >> be >>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? ethnographers >> are >>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is raising >>> this >>>> issue. >>>> >>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with the >>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that the >>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may say >> that >>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school was >>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I got to >>> the >>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin under >>> the >>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in Chapter 8 >> of >>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. >>>> >>>> I?ll end it there. >>>> >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Henry: >>>>> >>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and >>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the >>>> different >>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker somehow >>> sees >>>> it >>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space within >>>> space). >>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and >>>> happenings. >>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's >>>> temporally >>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that >>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either >> proleptically >>> or >>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article we >>> are >>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three >> weeks >>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into >> the >>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has been >>>> (past) >>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. >>>>> >>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me >> that >>>> the >>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That is, >> the >>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more and >>>> less >>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example in >>>> this >>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the >> task >>>> of >>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, the >>>> scope, >>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science identities >> and >>>> the >>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this >>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed out a >>>> little >>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the damn >>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing the >>>> other: >>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some task >>> that >>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space >> and >>>> not >>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way you >>> dig >>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. >>>>> >>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the >>>> article: >>>>> >>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans", >>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP classes) >>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or what >>>> Eckhart >>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', >>> 'gangbangers') >>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and what >>> they >>>>> think about themselves) >>>>> >>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are >>>> probably >>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really do >>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). Different >>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of the >>>> school >>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers and >>>> groups >>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's >>> always >>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the >> data >>>> is >>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against what >> is >>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of >>>>> intervention is. >>>>> >>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured by >>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that just >> an >>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words (although >>> maybe >>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds for >>>> hope? >>>>> >>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own >>>> *history*, >>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* it >>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances existing >>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of all >>> dead >>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living." >>>>> >>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a >>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Macquarie University >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> All, >>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I >> wanted >>>> to >>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera John-Steiner >> and >>>> her >>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating Mathematics: >>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers to >>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within these >>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and >> Reuben?s >>>> book >>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real (working) >>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we call >>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching of >>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and could >> be >>>>>> relevant to this discussion. >>>>>> Henry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Margaret >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave it >> to >>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous term >>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments about >>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place of >>>>>> identity. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of >> "model >>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM subjects >>> would >>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with >> identifying >>>>>> with >>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to find >>>> out" >>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is >>>>>> foregrounded >>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background >> social >>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at the >>>> role >>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about >>>> unknowns. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set of >>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such that >>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable within >>> these >>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with the >>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < >>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for the >>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed Out.? >>> We >>>>>> also >>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream of >>>>>>>> thinking here! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas about >>> the >>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we would >> like >>> to >>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students >> were >>>>>> making >>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them >>> through >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured >>> worlds >>>>>> are >>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us >> reflected >>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty >> serious >>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what >> theories >>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of >> ?exemplars? >>>> we >>>>>>>> might turn to. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < >> lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably sens >> as >>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning and >>>>>> sense) >>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. >>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of (hollowed-out) >>>> meaning >>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for >>>> developing a >>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. >>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of >> social >>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about improving >>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of the >>>> study >>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary >>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, can >>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section (identity-in-context) >>> to >>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured worlds). >>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of history-in-person. >>> That >>>> is >>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of person >>> one >>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. >>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the >>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries (figured >>>>>> worlds) >>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local practices >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially and >>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are >>>>>> recognized >>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological >>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* to >>>>>> *what* >>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we >> take. >>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn >>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper ethical >>>> turn >>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. >>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as well >>> as >>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as >>> beacons >>>> of >>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the >> neoliberal >>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from >> their >>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From: mike cole >>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM >>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >> Re-started >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might send >>> them >>>>>>>>> here: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web >> site >>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to implement. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < >>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and >>> Science >>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret >>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so during the >>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I shared >>> the >>>>>>>>>> link >>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion to a >>>> halt >>>>>>>>>> until >>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret and >>>> Carrie >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, but I >>>> also >>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves as >>> soon >>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a discussion >> of >>> an >>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An >> American >>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" >>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark day >>> for >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some >> grounds >>>> for >>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home >> now, >>>> as >>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of >> mind" >>>> and >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal >>>>>>>>>> organisation of >>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to >> Trump's >>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of everyday >>>> life. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on >> women's >>>>>>>>>> scholar >>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to the >>>>>>>>>> discussions >>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I >> hope >>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 >>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of those >>>> still >>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins us >>> next >>>>>>>>>> week! >>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole >>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 >>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would be >>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance at >> the >>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade >> into >>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have until >>> next >>>>>>>>>> week >>>>>>>>>> to think about it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to >> catch >>>> up! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that the >>> data >>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was the >>>>>>>>>> processes >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the >>>>>> externally >>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study using >>>>>>>>>> theories >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your >>> position. >>>> as >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if you >> are >>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point (in >>> the >>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the >>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I >>>> think >>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it could >>> be >>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the adult >>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? that >> this >>>>>>>>>> narrative >>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather >> could >>>> be >>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in >> particular >>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american >> education >>>>>>>>>> began? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen >> study, >>>> what >>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, >>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow >>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning and >>>>>>>>>> sense. I >>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes >> *direction* >>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of depends >>> on >>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. >>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you and >>> me) >>>>>>>>>> way of >>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical >> ways >>> of >>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the >>> *historical-in-person*. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the description >> of >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing >>> circumstances* >>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The article says: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other >>> Sociocultural >>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that >> is, >>>>>>>>>> learning >>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a >>> particular >>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not stable or >>> fixed. >>>>>> As >>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too may >>> the >>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & Skinner, >>>>>> 1997). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity processes >>> that >>>>>>>>>> start >>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are *external* >>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the >>> importance >>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or primordially >> to >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a gap >> in >>>> our >>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* >> and >>>>>>>>>> highly >>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in actual*ity. >>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the >>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, >>> unsure >>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" >>>> questions >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be working >>> on. >>>> In >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a moment >>> which >>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big >>> Bang. >>>>>> But >>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start >> (the >>>> Big >>>>>>>>>> Bang >>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention the >>>> origins >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> life). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just >>>> thoughtfully >>>>>>>>>> sent >>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper leaves a >>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>> big >>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap is >>>>>> largely >>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, >> 'identity' >>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to be >>>>>>>>>> sustained." >>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good student, >>> though >>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest, >>>>>>>>>> excitement, >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." (193) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm >>> confident', >>>>>>>>>> 'I'm >>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted in >> the >>>>>>>>>> context >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, their >>>>>>>>>> statements >>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for >>> being >>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity >> characteristics >>> of >>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, >> do >>> it >>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." >> (193) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by >>>> society", >>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context of >>> the >>>>>>>>>> figured >>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to go >>>>>> against >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's >>> views >>>> as >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that contradicts >>> my >>>>>>>>>> data: >>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the >>> theory >>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also >> don't >>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I think >> the >>>>>> word >>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and >> engagement >>>> as >>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter easily, >> do >>>> the >>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than >> others >>>> and >>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is >>>> actually >>>>>>>>>> "I" >>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking >>> about, >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation >> between >>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the activity >> at >>>>>> hand >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world of >>>>>>>>>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a good >>>>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in >> both >>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky >>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a >>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and "you" >>>>>>>>>> relationship >>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I >> can >>>> make >>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, >>>>>>>>>> particularly >>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number and >> a >>>>>> class >>>>>>>>>> over >>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the >>> interpersonal >>>>>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me like a >>>>>> strange >>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) somewhere >>>> between >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I >>>> think >>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can >> probably >>>> find >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the >>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to >>>> (Vygotsky) >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language at >>> one >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) the >>>> moment >>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying clauses >>>> ("I'm >>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can >> pull >>>> this >>>>>>>>>> off") >>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, >> which >>> is >>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< >>> http://www.tandfonline >>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful >> paper >>>>>>>>>> (which >>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and >>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret >>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science >>>>>>>>>> Education >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the >>> whole >>>>>>>>>> issue, >>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie together >>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity in >>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> case). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after US >>>>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). >>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I >>>>>>>>>>>> share the link>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also attach it >> as >>>>>>>>>> PDF. >>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Science_education_in_urban_settings_Seeking_new_wa (1).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 175473 bytes Desc: Science_education_in_urban_settings_Seeking_new_wa (1).pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161201/63083f02/attachment.pdf From helenaworthen@gmail.com Thu Dec 1 14:44:40 2016 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 14:44:40 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> Message-ID: <33681DD3-4A40-411A-95D2-347322551F5F@gmail.com> Carrie, and others on xmcc: I?ve been watching the term ?neoliberal? float past in recent weeks. An example of the ways that I?ve seen it being used is in Carrie?s most recent message: ??. that disrupt the neoliberal model and normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young people in the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who utilize the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, questions, interests.? It sounds as if these frameworks - the math and science in these models - are what is disrupting the neoliberal model. They enable students to make sense of the world in a way that is an alternative to the neoliberal model. Discourse like this makes me want to suggest a film for shared viewing: The Measure of a Man, directed by Stephane Brize, 2016. This film works carefully and thoroughly through the whole experience of a middle-aged white man who is trying to live in a country (France) that has given itself away pretty entirely to neoliberalism. Each slow turn of the plot opens up another dimension of how the neoliberal model is experienced by someone who, under a different model, would have lived quite differently. Amazingly, the film doesn?t leave out anything that I can think of. One of its messages is how totalized the neoliberal model can be made in its operation. There are of course sections that speak to education and training. Has anyone else seen this film? Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com Berkeley, CA 94707 Blog about US and Viet Nam: helenaworthen.wordpress.com > On Dec 1, 2016, at 1:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote: > > Hi all, > > Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in regarding other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and science. First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying to suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow ideas about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There are certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s work at Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s work at the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young people in the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who utilize the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced ways of being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means by which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not entirely sure how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. > > > -- > > CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. > STEM Researcher > SRI International > Center for Technology in Learning > > > (650) 859-5262 > Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 > Skype: carrie.allen_9 > > On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com" wrote: > > So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. > This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our inquiry. > This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of learning. > > Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Edward Wall > Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > > Larry > > There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I?m not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics > > 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) > 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a teacher at one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). > 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 > 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the evidence isn?t clear) > > Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is put off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according to some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this is a bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling for the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). > > Ed > >> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: >> >> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it possible we are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation that were not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or incarnate deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. >> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural imaginaries) that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture well-being? >> >> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction >> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> From: Huw Lloyd >> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >> >> Alfredo, >> >> Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems inherent >> in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues can be >> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that can be >> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for "good >> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real problem >> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like Davydov's >> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". There >> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important >> implications. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> >> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >> >>> Huw, >>> >>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, social) >>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the formation >>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all educational >>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather should be >>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, *pathological* (or >>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and >>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some young >>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was Mike who >>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question is, will >>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the double bind >>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only include the >>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a higher order >>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to grow >>> rather than come to stall). >>> >>> Alfredo >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd >>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>> >>> Alfredo, >>> >>> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is another >>> matter. >>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, because there >>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is educational -- >>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an Illich >>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it just >>> takes a different course. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> wrote: >>> >>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates to this >>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to >>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, that >>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between two, >>> not >>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and >>> Phillip's >>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as all we >>> do. >>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have wonderfully >>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in maths, >>> but >>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever that >>> best >>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and context that >>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives and >>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it so that >>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, according >>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a hollowed-out >>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had illusion >>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities to >>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but also a >>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown in >>> people >>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we have a >>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? Not just >>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. >>>> >>>> Alfredo >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> on behalf of White, Phillip >>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>> >>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these >>> examples >>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at where she >>> is >>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a looking >>> back >>>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then setting a >>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, so >>> yeah, >>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of present >>>> activities to attain future goals. >>>> >>>> >>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you". >>>> >>>> >>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely on >>> their >>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all about >>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people like me >>>> do. >>>> >>>> >>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in this >>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. >>>> >>>> >>>> phillip >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> on behalf of David Kellogg >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>> >>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty mental >>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles I have >>> a >>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing rather >>> than >>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is >>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense of some >>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on tenses, and >>> the >>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in and out >>> of >>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. >>>> >>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the way >>> the >>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see >>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at what the >>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this simply >>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take simple >>> present >>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it because >>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the >>> figured >>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is youth? >>>> >>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very much a >>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" you >>> often >>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". >>>> >>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? >>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to find >>> out >>>> if anybody really cares. >>>> >>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: both >>> the >>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of statistical >>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the morning >>> after >>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of those >>> black >>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but couldn't be >>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class voters" who >>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North Carolina >>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently knowing how >>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented as >>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would be >>> part >>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that use >>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the impossible >>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times without >>> any >>>> memory at all). >>>> >>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together you >>> notice >>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your >>> question, >>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend to >>> change >>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On the one >>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too wholly >>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of these >>> moments >>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in >>> itself. >>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and objects >>> in >>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Macquarie University >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> David, >>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this topic, >>> but >>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection between >>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged?interactants >>> view >>>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is >>> largely >>>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians as >>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be interesting >>> to >>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each >>> other >>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of connecting >>>> the >>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to >>> clarify >>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential elections, >>> and >>>>> what not. >>>>> >>>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and Halliday on >>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in ?basic >>>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has said >>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As you?d >>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what he >>>> calls >>>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain is >>>> more >>>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he analyzes >>> tense >>>>> and aspect. >>>>> >>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar has a >>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage based, >>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I think >>>> there >>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m not >>>> smart >>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection must >>> be >>>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? ethnographers >>> are >>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is raising >>>> this >>>>> issue. >>>>> >>>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with the >>>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that the >>>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may say >>> that >>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school was >>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I got to >>>> the >>>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin under >>>> the >>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in Chapter 8 >>> of >>>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. >>>>> >>>>> I?ll end it there. >>>>> >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Henry: >>>>>> >>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and >>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the >>>>> different >>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker somehow >>>> sees >>>>> it >>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space within >>>>> space). >>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and >>>>> happenings. >>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's >>>>> temporally >>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that >>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either >>> proleptically >>>> or >>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article we >>>> are >>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three >>> weeks >>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into >>> the >>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has been >>>>> (past) >>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. >>>>>> >>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me >>> that >>>>> the >>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That is, >>> the >>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more and >>>>> less >>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example in >>>>> this >>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the >>> task >>>>> of >>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, the >>>>> scope, >>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science identities >>> and >>>>> the >>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this >>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed out a >>>>> little >>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the damn >>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing the >>>>> other: >>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some task >>>> that >>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space >>> and >>>>> not >>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way you >>>> dig >>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. >>>>>> >>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the >>>>> article: >>>>>> >>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans", >>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP classes) >>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or what >>>>> Eckhart >>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', >>>> 'gangbangers') >>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and what >>>> they >>>>>> think about themselves) >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are >>>>> probably >>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really do >>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). Different >>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of the >>>>> school >>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers and >>>>> groups >>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's >>>> always >>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the >>> data >>>>> is >>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against what >>> is >>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of >>>>>> intervention is. >>>>>> >>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured by >>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that just >>> an >>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words (although >>>> maybe >>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds for >>>>> hope? >>>>>> >>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own >>>>> *history*, >>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* it >>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances existing >>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of all >>>> dead >>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living." >>>>>> >>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a >>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> All, >>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I >>> wanted >>>>> to >>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera John-Steiner >>> and >>>>> her >>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating Mathematics: >>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers to >>>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within these >>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and >>> Reuben?s >>>>> book >>>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real (working) >>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we call >>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching of >>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and could >>> be >>>>>>> relevant to this discussion. >>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Margaret >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave it >>> to >>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous term >>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments about >>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place of >>>>>>> identity. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of >>> "model >>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM subjects >>>> would >>>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with >>> identifying >>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to find >>>>> out" >>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is >>>>>>> foregrounded >>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background >>> social >>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at the >>>>> role >>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about >>>>> unknowns. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set of >>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such that >>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable within >>>> these >>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with the >>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < >>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for the >>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed Out.? >>>> We >>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream of >>>>>>>>> thinking here! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas about >>>> the >>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we would >>> like >>>> to >>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students >>> were >>>>>>> making >>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them >>>> through >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured >>>> worlds >>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us >>> reflected >>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty >>> serious >>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what >>> theories >>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of >>> ?exemplars? >>>>> we >>>>>>>>> might turn to. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < >>> lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably sens >>> as >>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning and >>>>>>> sense) >>>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. >>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of (hollowed-out) >>>>> meaning >>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for >>>>> developing a >>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. >>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of >>> social >>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about improving >>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of the >>>>> study >>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary >>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, can >>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section (identity-in-context) >>>> to >>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured worlds). >>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of history-in-person. >>>> That >>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of person >>>> one >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. >>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the >>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries (figured >>>>>>> worlds) >>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local practices >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially and >>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are >>>>>>> recognized >>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological >>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* to >>>>>>> *what* >>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we >>> take. >>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn >>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper ethical >>>>> turn >>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. >>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as well >>>> as >>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as >>>> beacons >>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the >>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from >>> their >>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole >>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>> Re-started >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might send >>>> them >>>>>>>>>> here: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web >>> site >>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to implement. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < >>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and >>>> Science >>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret >>>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so during the >>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I shared >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> link >>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion to a >>>>> halt >>>>>>>>>>> until >>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret and >>>>> Carrie >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, but I >>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves as >>>> soon >>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a discussion >>> of >>>> an >>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An >>> American >>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" >>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark day >>>> for >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some >>> grounds >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home >>> now, >>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of >>> mind" >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>> organisation of >>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to >>> Trump's >>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of everyday >>>>> life. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on >>> women's >>>>>>>>>>> scholar >>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to the >>>>>>>>>>> discussions >>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I >>> hope >>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of those >>>>> still >>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins us >>>> next >>>>>>>>>>> week! >>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would be >>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance at >>> the >>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade >>> into >>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have until >>>> next >>>>>>>>>>> week >>>>>>>>>>> to think about it. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to >>> catch >>>>> up! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that the >>>> data >>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was the >>>>>>>>>>> processes >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the >>>>>>> externally >>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study using >>>>>>>>>>> theories >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your >>>> position. >>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if you >>> are >>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point (in >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the >>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I >>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it could >>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the adult >>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? that >>> this >>>>>>>>>>> narrative >>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather >>> could >>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in >>> particular >>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american >>> education >>>>>>>>>>> began? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen >>> study, >>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, >>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow >>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning and >>>>>>>>>>> sense. I >>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes >>> *direction* >>>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of depends >>>> on >>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. >>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you and >>>> me) >>>>>>>>>>> way of >>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical >>> ways >>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the >>>> *historical-in-person*. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the description >>> of >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing >>>> circumstances* >>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The article says: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other >>>> Sociocultural >>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that >>> is, >>>>>>>>>>> learning >>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a >>>> particular >>>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not stable or >>>> fixed. >>>>>>> As >>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too may >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & Skinner, >>>>>>> 1997). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity processes >>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> start >>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are *external* >>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the >>>> importance >>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or primordially >>> to >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a gap >>> in >>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* >>> and >>>>>>>>>>> highly >>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in actual*ity. >>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the >>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, >>>> unsure >>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" >>>>> questions >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be working >>>> on. >>>>> In >>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a moment >>>> which >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big >>>> Bang. >>>>>>> But >>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start >>> (the >>>>> Big >>>>>>>>>>> Bang >>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention the >>>>> origins >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> life). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just >>>>> thoughtfully >>>>>>>>>>> sent >>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper leaves a >>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>>> big >>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap is >>>>>>> largely >>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, >>> 'identity' >>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to be >>>>>>>>>>> sustained." >>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good student, >>>> though >>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest, >>>>>>>>>>> excitement, >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." (193) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm >>>> confident', >>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm >>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted in >>> the >>>>>>>>>>> context >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, their >>>>>>>>>>> statements >>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for >>>> being >>>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity >>> characteristics >>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, >>> do >>>> it >>>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." >>> (193) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by >>>>> society", >>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context of >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> figured >>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to go >>>>>>> against >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's >>>> views >>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that contradicts >>>> my >>>>>>>>>>> data: >>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the >>>> theory >>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also >>> don't >>>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I think >>> the >>>>>>> word >>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and >>> engagement >>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter easily, >>> do >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than >>> others >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is >>>>> actually >>>>>>>>>>> "I" >>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking >>>> about, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation >>> between >>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the activity >>> at >>>>>>> hand >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world of >>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a good >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in >>> both >>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky >>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a >>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and "you" >>>>>>>>>>> relationship >>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I >>> can >>>>> make >>>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, >>>>>>>>>>> particularly >>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number and >>> a >>>>>>> class >>>>>>>>>>> over >>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the >>>> interpersonal >>>>>>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me like a >>>>>>> strange >>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) somewhere >>>>> between >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I >>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can >>> probably >>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the >>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to >>>>> (Vygotsky) >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language at >>>> one >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) the >>>>> moment >>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying clauses >>>>> ("I'm >>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can >>> pull >>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> off") >>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, >>> which >>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< >>>> http://www.tandfonline >>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful >>> paper >>>>>>>>>>> (which >>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and >>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), >>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret >>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science >>>>>>>>>>> Education >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the >>>> whole >>>>>>>>>>> issue, >>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie together >>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity in >>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>> case). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after US >>>>>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). >>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I >>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also attach it >>> as >>>>>>>>>>> PDF. >>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > > > > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Thu Dec 1 16:19:27 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 00:19:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com>, <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no> Larry, this way of articulating a Vygotskian approach to learning as NOT something that simply first is external and that then becomes internal, is one of the things that most attracted me from this paper. The competences and cognitive functions that Galina describes are intermental through and through, even when she talks of a "happy end" where the competence to initiate collaboration is interiorized?. This resonates quite well with an argument that Michael R. and myself have been advancing recently referring to the inter-intrasubjectivity (see e.g., MCA perezhivanie issue), although critical readers will note that we advance the argument in a way much more metaphorical than Galina's reported experiments (and being metaphorical is a fair critique, though being so may also be a good way to move forward to new concrete research programs). Another thing I like is that the article raises a question of distinguishing (or not) between relations of learner and a skilled person (may we say, an apprenticeship?) on the one hand, and between learner and *teacher* on the other. An advantage of this approach is that it allows tracing those genetic lines of development that are specific to teaching (teaching/learning) situations of the kind western schools and middle class parents sometimes exercise exhibiting and generating expectations of learning to think and solve problems independently. Alfredo ________________________________ From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 01 December 2016 21:21 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, Since you opened a new thread for the Zukerman article -in particular ? I will highlight a central question from page 17 that is organizing the article for the reader?s ability to respond. The last paragraph on page 17 opens with: Just what is learning collaboration? The answer given: It can be (understood) in two ways. It can be seen as a sort of scaffolding temporarily needed for mental development ? until children aquire the ability to apply scientific concepts INDEPENDENTLY, to frame and solve problems demanding theoretical thinking without the help of a teacher. However, learning collaboration can also be (interpreted) not as an ancillary developmental tool, not as an EXTERNAL removable support created in the course of building the mental ediface, but as an important part of this ediface, as A VALUABLE ABILITY ESSENTIAL TO HUMANS AT ANY POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE. It is this 2nd version of (learning collaboration) as a valuable (intermental ability) that continues and is universal, that this paper is highlighting for our further inquiry into Just what is learning collaboration? As an aspect of answering, Just what is education? A four way back and forth co-generation of genetic phenomenology Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: December 1, 2016 8:09 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to learn (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active force in learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the concepts (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky school: 1) As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out with the help of an adult, it is NOT independent 2) People can independently bring about collaborative (intermental action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist within the Vygotsky school. To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. As Zackerman says: Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the adult disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and purpose. The key question shifts to become: What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY structure (intermental) action. I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School exploration of developmental paths. Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration of others. Note that both alternatives are offering the key to answering -what is education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into this open question Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an educationbe?" Alfredo, ? WHAT is education. This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing stream. On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of (intermental) collaboration. Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of intermental collaboration. Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to *endure*. What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving adult as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a thing of inherent value. THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school age). So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next period emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and *enduring* form of collaboration. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education be?" Hi all, I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue 3 lead article. ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal reading of 3 articles: Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's reading of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, has to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most importantly, ?the question is also about what education could instead be as possibility, as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are necessary: we need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as much as we need a notion of what a good education could be. Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading for the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I think we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article (recently mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition brings in is, in my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for connecting the two questions posed above, the one on the facts of education and the one on possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter question on possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability to learn is. She writes: "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what abilities children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular developmental potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm in childhood development" Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and the desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are *educability* and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies in the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for many reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on age that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses the connection between communication and generalization, a connection that became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and generalization, in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the "internalisation" way of languaging it). The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. Alfredo From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Dec 1 17:23:07 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 17:23:07 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: <33681DD3-4A40-411A-95D2-347322551F5F@gmail.com> References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> <33681DD3-4A40-411A-95D2-347322551F5F@gmail.com> Message-ID: "The measure of a man" is on Netflix, at least, Helena. I think its a great way to generate more discussion of neoliberalism and education that Margaret and Carrie's article has stirred up. I have been seeing it as the intensification/codification/digitalized/nanoized/ of patterns evident in the period dating from, say, the end of the Johnson administration. But quantity can convert into quality (so they say), so identifying those special qualities or configurations of them, would be very useful. Carrie --- Thanks for sending the suggestions for successful counter-examples in the form of locally implemented alternative models. It seems important to collect such examples in order to understand both how to put them together and how to sustain/diffuse them in the face of overwhelming pressure toward commodification of education. And as Alfredo wrote (but in my dialect :-)) ) , "it ain't over 'til its over." Helena's idea of watching a film embodying her understanding of neoliberalism seems like a way to get greater understanding of each other when discussing our polysemic interests. The Zuckerman article seems to speak directly into these concerns. So thanks for starting such an interesting discussion!! mike On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Helena Worthen wrote: > Carrie, and others on xmcc: > > I?ve been watching the term ?neoliberal? float past in recent weeks. An > example of the ways that I?ve seen it being used is in Carrie?s most recent > message: > > ??. that disrupt the neoliberal model and normalized conceptions of math > and science, and that engage young people in the practices of the > disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and science in these > models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of the world, and > students in these models are positioned as those who utilize the resources > and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, questions, interests.? > > It sounds as if these frameworks - the math and science in these models - > are what is disrupting the neoliberal model. They enable students to make > sense of the world in a way that is an alternative to the neoliberal model. > > Discourse like this makes me want to suggest a film for shared viewing: > The Measure of a Man, directed by Stephane Brize, 2016. This film works > carefully and thoroughly through the whole experience of a middle-aged > white man who is trying to live in a country (France) that has given itself > away pretty entirely to neoliberalism. Each slow turn of the plot opens up > another dimension of how the neoliberal model is experienced by someone > who, under a different model, would have lived quite differently. > Amazingly, the film doesn?t leave out anything that I can think of. One of > its messages is how totalized the neoliberal model can be made in its > operation. There are of course sections that speak to education and > training. > > Has anyone else seen this film? > > Helena > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > Berkeley, CA 94707 > Blog about US and Viet Nam: helenaworthen.wordpress.com > > > > > On Dec 1, 2016, at 1:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in regarding > other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and science. > First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying to > suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow ideas > about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There are > certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s work at > Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s work at > the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and > normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young people in > the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and > science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of > the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who utilize > the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, > questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced ways of > being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means by > which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not entirely sure > how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are > ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. > > > > > > -- > > > > CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. > > STEM Researcher > > SRI International > > Center for Technology in Learning > > > > > > (650) 859-5262 > > Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 > > Skype: carrie.allen_9 > > > > On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of > lpscholar2@gmail.com" lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a > particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. > > This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes > approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our > inquiry. > > This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of learning. > > > > Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be > foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > From: Edward Wall > > Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > > > > Larry > > > > There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I?m > not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics > > > > 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) > > 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a teacher at > one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). > > 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 > > 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the > Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the evidence > isn?t clear) > > > > Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is put > off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; > however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey > recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according to > some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this is a > bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling for > the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). > > > > Ed > > > >> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: > >> > >> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates > (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it possible we > are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or > historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation that were > not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or incarnate > deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. > >> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural imaginaries) > that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture well-being? > >> > >> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction > >> > >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >> > >> From: Huw Lloyd > >> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >> > >> Alfredo, > >> > >> Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems > inherent > >> in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues can be > >> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that can be > >> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for "good > >> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real > problem > >> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like Davydov's > >> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". There > >> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important > >> implications. > >> > >> Best, > >> Huw > >> > >> > >> > >> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Huw, > >>> > >>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, social) > >>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the > formation > >>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all educational > >>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather should be > >>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, *pathological* > (or > >>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and > >>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some young > >>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was Mike > who > >>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question is, > will > >>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the double > bind > >>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only include the > >>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a higher > order > >>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to grow > >>> rather than come to stall). > >>> > >>> Alfredo > >>> ________________________________________ > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd > >>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>> > >>> Alfredo, > >>> > >>> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is > another > >>> matter. > >>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, because > there > >>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is educational > -- > >>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an Illich > >>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it just > >>> takes a different course. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> Huw > >>> > >>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates to > this > >>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to > >>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, that > >>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between > two, > >>> not > >>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and > >>> Phillip's > >>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as all > we > >>> do. > >>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have wonderfully > >>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in maths, > >>> but > >>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever that > >>> best > >>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and context > that > >>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives and > >>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it so > that > >>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, > according > >>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a > hollowed-out > >>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had > illusion > >>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities to > >>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but > also a > >>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown in > >>> people > >>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we > have a > >>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? Not > just > >>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. > >>>> > >>>> Alfredo > >>>> ________________________________________ > >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu> > >>>> on behalf of White, Phillip > >>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>>> > >>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these > >>> examples > >>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at where > she > >>> is > >>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a looking > >>> back > >>>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then setting > a > >>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, so > >>> yeah, > >>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of present > >>>> activities to attain future goals. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you". > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely on > >>> their > >>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all > about > >>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people > like me > >>>> do. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in > this > >>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> phillip > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu> > >>>> on behalf of David Kellogg > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>>> > >>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty > mental > >>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles I > have > >>> a > >>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing rather > >>> than > >>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is > >>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense of > some > >>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on tenses, > and > >>> the > >>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in and > out > >>> of > >>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. > >>>> > >>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the way > >>> the > >>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see > >>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at what > the > >>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this > simply > >>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take simple > >>> present > >>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it > because > >>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the > >>> figured > >>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is youth? > >>>> > >>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very > much a > >>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" you > >>> often > >>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". > >>>> > >>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? > >>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to > find > >>> out > >>>> if anybody really cares. > >>>> > >>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: > both > >>> the > >>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of > statistical > >>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the morning > >>> after > >>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of those > >>> black > >>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but couldn't > be > >>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class voters" > who > >>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North > Carolina > >>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently knowing > how > >>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented as > >>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would be > >>> part > >>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that use > >>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the > impossible > >>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times without > >>> any > >>>> memory at all). > >>>> > >>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together you > >>> notice > >>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your > >>> question, > >>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend to > >>> change > >>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On the > one > >>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too > wholly > >>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of these > >>> moments > >>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in > >>> itself. > >>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and > objects > >>> in > >>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. > >>>> > >>>> David Kellogg > >>>> Macquarie University > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> David, > >>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this topic, > >>> but > >>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection between > >>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged?interactants > >>> view > >>>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is > >>> largely > >>>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians as > >>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be interesting > >>> to > >>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each > >>> other > >>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of > connecting > >>>> the > >>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to > >>> clarify > >>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential elections, > >>> and > >>>>> what not. > >>>>> > >>>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and Halliday > on > >>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in ?basic > >>>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has > said > >>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As you?d > >>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what he > >>>> calls > >>>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain > is > >>>> more > >>>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he analyzes > >>> tense > >>>>> and aspect. > >>>>> > >>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar has > a > >>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage > based, > >>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I think > >>>> there > >>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m not > >>>> smart > >>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection must > >>> be > >>>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? ethnographers > >>> are > >>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is raising > >>>> this > >>>>> issue. > >>>>> > >>>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with the > >>>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that > the > >>>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may say > >>> that > >>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school > was > >>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I got > to > >>>> the > >>>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin > under > >>>> the > >>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in Chapter 8 > >>> of > >>>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. > >>>>> > >>>>> I?ll end it there. > >>>>> > >>>>> Henry > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Henry: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and > >>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the > >>>>> different > >>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker somehow > >>>> sees > >>>>> it > >>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space within > >>>>> space). > >>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and > >>>>> happenings. > >>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's > >>>>> temporally > >>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that > >>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either > >>> proleptically > >>>> or > >>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article we > >>>> are > >>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three > >>> weeks > >>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into > >>> the > >>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has been > >>>>> (past) > >>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me > >>> that > >>>>> the > >>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That is, > >>> the > >>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more > and > >>>>> less > >>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example > in > >>>>> this > >>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the > >>> task > >>>>> of > >>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, the > >>>>> scope, > >>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science identities > >>> and > >>>>> the > >>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this > >>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed out a > >>>>> little > >>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the damn > >>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing the > >>>>> other: > >>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some task > >>>> that > >>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space > >>> and > >>>>> not > >>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way you > >>>> dig > >>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the > >>>>> article: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans", > >>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP classes) > >>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or what > >>>>> Eckhart > >>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', > >>>> 'gangbangers') > >>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and what > >>>> they > >>>>>> think about themselves) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are > >>>>> probably > >>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really do > >>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). > Different > >>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of the > >>>>> school > >>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers and > >>>>> groups > >>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's > >>>> always > >>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the > >>> data > >>>>> is > >>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against what > >>> is > >>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of > >>>>>> intervention is. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured by > >>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that just > >>> an > >>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words (although > >>>> maybe > >>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds for > >>>>> hope? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own > >>>>> *history*, > >>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* > it > >>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances > existing > >>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of all > >>>> dead > >>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a > >>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>>> Macquarie University > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> All, > >>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I > >>> wanted > >>>>> to > >>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera John-Steiner > >>> and > >>>>> her > >>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating Mathematics: > >>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers to > >>>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within > these > >>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and > >>> Reuben?s > >>>>> book > >>>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real (working) > >>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we call > >>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching > of > >>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and could > >>> be > >>>>>>> relevant to this discussion. > >>>>>>> Henry > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Dear Margaret > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave it > >>> to > >>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous term > >>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments > about > >>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place of > >>>>>>> identity. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of > >>> "model > >>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM subjects > >>>> would > >>>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with > >>> identifying > >>>>>>> with > >>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to > find > >>>>> out" > >>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is > >>>>>>> foregrounded > >>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background > >>> social > >>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at > the > >>>>> role > >>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about > >>>>> unknowns. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set of > >>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such > that > >>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable within > >>>> these > >>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with the > >>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Best, > >>>>>>>> Huw > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < > >>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for the > >>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed Out.? > >>>> We > >>>>>>> also > >>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream > of > >>>>>>>>> thinking here! > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas > about > >>>> the > >>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we would > >>> like > >>>> to > >>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students > >>> were > >>>>>>> making > >>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them > >>>> through > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured > >>>> worlds > >>>>>>> are > >>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us > >>> reflected > >>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty > >>> serious > >>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what > >>> theories > >>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of > >>> ?exemplars? > >>>>> we > >>>>>>>>> might turn to. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < > >>> lpscholar2@gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably sens > >>> as > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning > and > >>>>>>> sense) > >>>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. > >>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of (hollowed-out) > >>>>> meaning > >>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for > >>>>> developing a > >>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. > >>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of > >>> social > >>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about improving > >>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of the > >>>>> study > >>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary > >>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, can > >>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section > (identity-in-context) > >>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured worlds). > >>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of history-in-person. > >>>> That > >>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of > person > >>>> one > >>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. > >>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the > >>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries > (figured > >>>>>>> worlds) > >>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local practices > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially and > >>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are > >>>>>>> recognized > >>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological > >>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* > to > >>>>>>> *what* > >>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we > >>> take. > >>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn > >>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper > ethical > >>>>> turn > >>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. > >>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as > well > >>>> as > >>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as > >>>> beacons > >>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the > >>> neoliberal > >>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from > >>> their > >>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole > >>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM > >>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>> Re-started > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might send > >>>> them > >>>>>>>>>> here: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web > >>> site > >>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to > implement. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> mike > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > >>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and > >>>> Science > >>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret > >>>>> Eisenhart > >>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so during > the > >>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I > shared > >>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> link > >>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion to > a > >>>>> halt > >>>>>>>>>>> until > >>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret and > >>>>> Carrie > >>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, but > I > >>>>> also > >>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves as > >>>> soon > >>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a discussion > >>> of > >>>> an > >>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An > >>> American > >>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" > >>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark > day > >>>> for > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some > >>> grounds > >>>>> for > >>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home > >>> now, > >>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>> Mike > >>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of > >>> mind" > >>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>> that > >>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal > >>>>>>>>>>> organisation of > >>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to > >>> Trump's > >>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of > everyday > >>>>> life. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on > >>> women's > >>>>>>>>>>> scholar > >>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to the > >>>>>>>>>>> discussions > >>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I > >>> hope > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>> >>>>>>> edu> > >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 > >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of those > >>>>> still > >>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins us > >>>> next > >>>>>>>>>>> week! > >>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>> >>>>>>> edu> > >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 > >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would be > >>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance at > >>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade > >>> into > >>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have until > >>>> next > >>>>>>>>>>> week > >>>>>>>>>>> to think about it. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to > >>> catch > >>>>> up! > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> mike > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip > >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that the > >>>> data > >>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was the > >>>>>>>>>>> processes > >>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the > >>>>>>> externally > >>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study using > >>>>>>>>>>> theories > >>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your > >>>> position. > >>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>> you > >>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if you > >>> are > >>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point > (in > >>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> case > >>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the > >>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but > I > >>>>> think > >>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it > could > >>>> be > >>>>>>>>>>> traced > >>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the adult > >>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? that > >>> this > >>>>>>>>>>> narrative > >>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather > >>> could > >>>>> be > >>>>>>>>>>> traced > >>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in > >>> particular > >>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american > >>> education > >>>>>>>>>>> began? > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen > >>> study, > >>>>> what > >>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> phillip > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow > >>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning > and > >>>>>>>>>>> sense. I > >>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes > >>> *direction* > >>>>>>>>>>> within > >>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of > depends > >>>> on > >>>>>>>>>>> where > >>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. > >>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you and > >>>> me) > >>>>>>>>>>> way of > >>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical > >>> ways > >>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>> being > >>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the > >>>> *historical-in-person*. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the description > >>> of > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing > >>>> circumstances* > >>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> The article says: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other > >>>> Sociocultural > >>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that > >>> is, > >>>>>>>>>>> learning > >>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a > >>>> particular > >>>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not stable or > >>>> fixed. > >>>>>>> As > >>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too may > >>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & > Skinner, > >>>>>>> 1997). > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity processes > >>>> that > >>>>>>>>>>> start > >>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are *external* > >>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the > >>>> importance > >>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or primordially > >>> to > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a gap > >>> in > >>>>> our > >>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* > >>> and > >>>>>>>>>>> highly > >>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in actual*ity. > >>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the > >>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, > >>>> unsure > >>>>>>>>>>> where > >>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" > >>>>> questions > >>>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be working > >>>> on. > >>>>> In > >>>>>>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a moment > >>>> which > >>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big > >>>> Bang. > >>>>>>> But > >>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start > >>> (the > >>>>> Big > >>>>>>>>>>> Bang > >>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention the > >>>>> origins > >>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>> life). > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just > >>>>> thoughtfully > >>>>>>>>>>> sent > >>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper leaves > a > >>>>>>> really > >>>>>>>>>>> big > >>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap is > >>>>>>> largely > >>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, > >>> 'identity' > >>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to be > >>>>>>>>>>> sustained." > >>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good student, > >>>> though > >>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest, > >>>>>>>>>>> excitement, > >>>>>>>>>>> or > >>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." (193) > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm > >>>> confident', > >>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted in > >>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> context > >>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, their > >>>>>>>>>>> statements > >>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for > >>>> being > >>>>>>>>>>> good > >>>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity > >>> characteristics > >>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>> being > >>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, > >>> do > >>>> it > >>>>>>>>>>> without > >>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." > >>> (193) > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by > >>>>> society", > >>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context > of > >>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> figured > >>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to go > >>>>>>> against > >>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's > >>>> views > >>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that > contradicts > >>>> my > >>>>>>>>>>> data: > >>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the > >>>> theory > >>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also > >>> don't > >>>>>>>>>>> believe > >>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I think > >>> the > >>>>>>> word > >>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and > >>> engagement > >>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>> much > >>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter easily, > >>> do > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> work > >>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than > >>> others > >>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>> get > >>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is > >>>>> actually > >>>>>>>>>>> "I" > >>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking > >>>> about, > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation > >>> between > >>>>>>>>>>> their > >>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the activity > >>> at > >>>>>>> hand > >>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world > of > >>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal > >>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a good > >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity > >>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in > >>> both > >>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky > >>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a > >>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and "you" > >>>>>>>>>>> relationship > >>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I > >>> can > >>>>> make > >>>>>>>>>>> up > >>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, > >>>>>>>>>>> particularly > >>>>>>>>>>> if > >>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number and > >>> a > >>>>>>> class > >>>>>>>>>>> over > >>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the > >>>> interpersonal > >>>>>>>>>>> somehow > >>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me like a > >>>>>>> strange > >>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) somewhere > >>>>> between > >>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but > I > >>>>> think > >>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can > >>> probably > >>>>> find > >>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the > >>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to > >>>>> (Vygotsky) > >>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language at > >>>> one > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) the > >>>>> moment > >>>>>>>>>>> when > >>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying > clauses > >>>>> ("I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can > >>> pull > >>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>> off") > >>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, > >>> which > >>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>> now > >>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< > >>>> http://www.tandfonline > >>>>> . > >>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful > >>> paper > >>>>>>>>>>> (which > >>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and > >>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), > >>>>>>>>>>> we > >>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret > >>>> Eisenhart > >>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science > >>>>>>>>>>> Education > >>>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the > >>>> whole > >>>>>>>>>>> issue, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie together > >>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity > in > >>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>> case). > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after US > >>>>>>>>>>> elections > >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). > >>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I > >>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link >>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 > >>>>>>>>> . > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also attach it > >>> as > >>>>>>>>>>> PDF. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Dec 1 17:24:27 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 17:24:27 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> <33681DD3-4A40-411A-95D2-347322551F5F@gmail.com> Message-ID: PS-- the film has a rating of 1, the lowest I have ever seen. Hmmmmmmm, might it have to do with the pain of the message, or is it just bad acting? Gotta take a look. mike On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 5:23 PM, mike cole wrote: > "The measure of a man" is on Netflix, at least, Helena. I think its a > great way to generate more discussion of neoliberalism and education that > Margaret and Carrie's article has stirred up. I have been seeing it as the > intensification/codification/digitalized/nanoized/ of patterns evident in > the period dating from, say, the end of the Johnson administration. But > quantity can convert into quality (so they say), so identifying those > special qualities or configurations of them, would be very useful. > > Carrie --- Thanks for sending the suggestions for successful > counter-examples in the form of locally implemented alternative models. It > seems important to collect such examples in order to understand both how to > put them together and how to sustain/diffuse them in the face of > overwhelming pressure toward commodification > of education. > > And as Alfredo wrote (but in my dialect :-)) ) , "it ain't over 'til its > over." > > Helena's idea of watching a film embodying her understanding of > neoliberalism > seems like a way to get greater understanding of each other when > discussing our polysemic interests. > > The Zuckerman article seems to speak directly into these concerns. > > So thanks for starting such an interesting discussion!! > > mike > > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Helena Worthen > wrote: > >> Carrie, and others on xmcc: >> >> I?ve been watching the term ?neoliberal? float past in recent weeks. An >> example of the ways that I?ve seen it being used is in Carrie?s most recent >> message: >> >> ??. that disrupt the neoliberal model and normalized conceptions of math >> and science, and that engage young people in the practices of the >> disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and science in these >> models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of the world, and >> students in these models are positioned as those who utilize the resources >> and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, questions, interests.? >> >> It sounds as if these frameworks - the math and science in these models - >> are what is disrupting the neoliberal model. They enable students to make >> sense of the world in a way that is an alternative to the neoliberal model. >> >> Discourse like this makes me want to suggest a film for shared viewing: >> The Measure of a Man, directed by Stephane Brize, 2016. This film works >> carefully and thoroughly through the whole experience of a middle-aged >> white man who is trying to live in a country (France) that has given itself >> away pretty entirely to neoliberalism. Each slow turn of the plot opens up >> another dimension of how the neoliberal model is experienced by someone >> who, under a different model, would have lived quite differently. >> Amazingly, the film doesn?t leave out anything that I can think of. One of >> its messages is how totalized the neoliberal model can be made in its >> operation. There are of course sections that speak to education and >> training. >> >> Has anyone else seen this film? >> >> Helena >> >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> Berkeley, CA 94707 >> Blog about US and Viet Nam: helenaworthen.wordpress.com >> >> >> >> > On Dec 1, 2016, at 1:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote: >> > >> > Hi all, >> > >> > Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in regarding >> other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and science. >> First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying to >> suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow ideas >> about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There are >> certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s work at >> Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s work at >> the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and >> normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young people in >> the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and >> science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of >> the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who utilize >> the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, >> questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced ways of >> being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means by >> which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not entirely sure >> how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are >> ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. >> > STEM Researcher >> > SRI International >> > Center for Technology in Learning >> > >> > >> > (650) 859-5262 >> > Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 >> > Skype: carrie.allen_9 >> > >> > On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of >> lpscholar2@gmail.com" > lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a >> particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. >> > This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes >> approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our >> inquiry. >> > This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of learning. >> > >> > Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be >> foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. >> > >> > >> > Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> > >> > From: Edward Wall >> > Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM >> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >> > >> > Larry >> > >> > There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I?m >> not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics >> > >> > 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) >> > 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a teacher >> at one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). >> > 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 >> > 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the >> Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the evidence >> isn?t clear) >> > >> > Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is put >> off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; >> however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey >> recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according to >> some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this is a >> bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling for >> the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). >> > >> > Ed >> > >> >> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates >> (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it possible we >> are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or >> historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation that were >> not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or incarnate >> deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. >> >> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural imaginaries) >> that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture well-being? >> >> >> >> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction >> >> >> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> >> >> From: Huw Lloyd >> >> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM >> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >> >> >> >> Alfredo, >> >> >> >> Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems >> inherent >> >> in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues can be >> >> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that can be >> >> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for "good >> >> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real >> problem >> >> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like Davydov's >> >> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". >> There >> >> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important >> >> implications. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Huw >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Huw, >> >>> >> >>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, social) >> >>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the >> formation >> >>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all educational >> >>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather should >> be >> >>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, *pathological* >> (or >> >>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and >> >>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some young >> >>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was >> Mike who >> >>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question is, >> will >> >>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the double >> bind >> >>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only include >> the >> >>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a higher >> order >> >>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to grow >> >>> rather than come to stall). >> >>> >> >>> Alfredo >> >>> ________________________________________ >> >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > du> >> >>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd >> >>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 >> >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >> >>> >> >>> Alfredo, >> >>> >> >>> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is >> another >> >>> matter. >> >>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, because >> there >> >>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is >> educational -- >> >>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an Illich >> >>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it just >> >>> takes a different course. >> >>> >> >>> Best, >> >>> Huw >> >>> >> >>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates to >> this >> >>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to >> >>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, that >> >>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between >> two, >> >>> not >> >>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and >> >>> Phillip's >> >>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as all >> we >> >>> do. >> >>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have >> wonderfully >> >>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in >> maths, >> >>> but >> >>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever >> that >> >>> best >> >>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and context >> that >> >>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives and >> >>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it so >> that >> >>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, >> according >> >>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a >> hollowed-out >> >>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had >> illusion >> >>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities to >> >>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but >> also a >> >>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown in >> >>> people >> >>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we >> have a >> >>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? Not >> just >> >>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. >> >>>> >> >>>> Alfredo >> >>>> ________________________________________ >> >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > du> >> >>>> on behalf of White, Phillip >> >>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 >> >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >> >>>> >> >>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these >> >>> examples >> >>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at where >> she >> >>> is >> >>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a looking >> >>> back >> >>>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then >> setting a >> >>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, so >> >>> yeah, >> >>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of >> present >> >>>> activities to attain future goals. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you". >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely on >> >>> their >> >>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all >> about >> >>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people >> like me >> >>>> do. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in >> this >> >>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> phillip >> >>>> >> >>>> ________________________________ >> >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > du> >> >>>> on behalf of David Kellogg >> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM >> >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >> >>>> >> >>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty >> mental >> >>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles I >> have >> >>> a >> >>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing >> rather >> >>> than >> >>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is >> >>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense of >> some >> >>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on tenses, >> and >> >>> the >> >>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in and >> out >> >>> of >> >>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. >> >>>> >> >>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the >> way >> >>> the >> >>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see >> >>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at what >> the >> >>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this >> simply >> >>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take simple >> >>> present >> >>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it >> because >> >>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the >> >>> figured >> >>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is youth? >> >>>> >> >>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very >> much a >> >>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" you >> >>> often >> >>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". >> >>>> >> >>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? >> >>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to >> find >> >>> out >> >>>> if anybody really cares. >> >>>> >> >>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: >> both >> >>> the >> >>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of >> statistical >> >>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the morning >> >>> after >> >>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of those >> >>> black >> >>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but >> couldn't be >> >>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class voters" >> who >> >>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North >> Carolina >> >>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently >> knowing how >> >>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented as >> >>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would be >> >>> part >> >>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that >> use >> >>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the >> impossible >> >>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times >> without >> >>> any >> >>>> memory at all). >> >>>> >> >>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together you >> >>> notice >> >>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your >> >>> question, >> >>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend to >> >>> change >> >>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On the >> one >> >>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too >> wholly >> >>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of these >> >>> moments >> >>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in >> >>> itself. >> >>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and >> objects >> >>> in >> >>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. >> >>>> >> >>>> David Kellogg >> >>>> Macquarie University >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> David, >> >>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this topic, >> >>> but >> >>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection >> between >> >>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged?interactants >> >>> view >> >>>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is >> >>> largely >> >>>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians as >> >>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be >> interesting >> >>> to >> >>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each >> >>> other >> >>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of >> connecting >> >>>> the >> >>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to >> >>> clarify >> >>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential elections, >> >>> and >> >>>>> what not. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and Halliday >> on >> >>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in >> ?basic >> >>>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has >> said >> >>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As >> you?d >> >>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what >> he >> >>>> calls >> >>>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain >> is >> >>>> more >> >>>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he analyzes >> >>> tense >> >>>>> and aspect. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar >> has a >> >>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage >> based, >> >>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I think >> >>>> there >> >>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m not >> >>>> smart >> >>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection >> must >> >>> be >> >>>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? ethnographers >> >>> are >> >>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is >> raising >> >>>> this >> >>>>> issue. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with the >> >>>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that >> the >> >>>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may say >> >>> that >> >>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school >> was >> >>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I got >> to >> >>>> the >> >>>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin >> under >> >>>> the >> >>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in Chapter >> 8 >> >>> of >> >>>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I?ll end it there. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Henry >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Henry: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and >> >>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the >> >>>>> different >> >>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker somehow >> >>>> sees >> >>>>> it >> >>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space within >> >>>>> space). >> >>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and >> >>>>> happenings. >> >>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's >> >>>>> temporally >> >>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that >> >>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either >> >>> proleptically >> >>>> or >> >>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article >> we >> >>>> are >> >>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three >> >>> weeks >> >>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into >> >>> the >> >>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has >> been >> >>>>> (past) >> >>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me >> >>> that >> >>>>> the >> >>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That is, >> >>> the >> >>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more >> and >> >>>>> less >> >>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example >> in >> >>>>> this >> >>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the >> >>> task >> >>>>> of >> >>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, the >> >>>>> scope, >> >>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science identities >> >>> and >> >>>>> the >> >>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this >> >>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed out >> a >> >>>>> little >> >>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the >> damn >> >>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing the >> >>>>> other: >> >>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some task >> >>>> that >> >>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space >> >>> and >> >>>>> not >> >>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way >> you >> >>>> dig >> >>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the >> >>>>> article: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans", >> >>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP classes) >> >>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or what >> >>>>> Eckhart >> >>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', >> >>>> 'gangbangers') >> >>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and >> what >> >>>> they >> >>>>>> think about themselves) >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are >> >>>>> probably >> >>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really >> do >> >>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). >> Different >> >>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of the >> >>>>> school >> >>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers and >> >>>>> groups >> >>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's >> >>>> always >> >>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the >> >>> data >> >>>>> is >> >>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against what >> >>> is >> >>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of >> >>>>>> intervention is. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured by >> >>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that >> just >> >>> an >> >>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words (although >> >>>> maybe >> >>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds >> for >> >>>>> hope? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own >> >>>>> *history*, >> >>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* >> it >> >>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances >> existing >> >>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of >> all >> >>>> dead >> >>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living." >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a >> >>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> David Kellogg >> >>>>>> Macquarie University >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD > > >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> All, >> >>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I >> >>> wanted >> >>>>> to >> >>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera John-Steiner >> >>> and >> >>>>> her >> >>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating Mathematics: >> >>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers to >> >>>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within >> these >> >>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and >> >>> Reuben?s >> >>>>> book >> >>>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real (working) >> >>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we call >> >>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching >> of >> >>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and could >> >>> be >> >>>>>>> relevant to this discussion. >> >>>>>>> Henry >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd > > >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Dear Margaret >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave it >> >>> to >> >>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous term >> >>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments >> about >> >>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place of >> >>>>>>> identity. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of >> >>> "model >> >>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM subjects >> >>>> would >> >>>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with >> >>> identifying >> >>>>>>> with >> >>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to >> find >> >>>>> out" >> >>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is >> >>>>>>> foregrounded >> >>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background >> >>> social >> >>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at >> the >> >>>>> role >> >>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about >> >>>>> unknowns. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set >> of >> >>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such >> that >> >>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable within >> >>>> these >> >>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with >> the >> >>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Best, >> >>>>>>>> Huw >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < >> >>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for >> the >> >>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed >> Out.? >> >>>> We >> >>>>>>> also >> >>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream >> of >> >>>>>>>>> thinking here! >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas >> about >> >>>> the >> >>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we would >> >>> like >> >>>> to >> >>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students >> >>> were >> >>>>>>> making >> >>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them >> >>>> through >> >>>>>>> the >> >>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured >> >>>> worlds >> >>>>>>> are >> >>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us >> >>> reflected >> >>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty >> >>> serious >> >>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what >> >>> theories >> >>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of >> >>> ?exemplars? >> >>>>> we >> >>>>>>>>> might turn to. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < >> >>> lpscholar2@gmail.com >> >>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably >> sens >> >>> as >> >>>>>>> this >> >>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning >> and >> >>>>>>> sense) >> >>>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. >> >>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of (hollowed-out) >> >>>>> meaning >> >>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for >> >>>>> developing a >> >>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. >> >>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of >> >>> social >> >>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about improving >> >>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of >> the >> >>>>> study >> >>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary >> >>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, >> can >> >>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section >> (identity-in-context) >> >>>> to >> >>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured >> worlds). >> >>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of history-in-person. >> >>>> That >> >>>>> is >> >>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of >> person >> >>>> one >> >>>>>>> is >> >>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. >> >>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the >> >>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries >> (figured >> >>>>>>> worlds) >> >>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local practices >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially >> and >> >>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are >> >>>>>>> recognized >> >>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological >> >>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* >> to >> >>>>>>> *what* >> >>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we >> >>> take. >> >>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn >> >>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper >> ethical >> >>>>> turn >> >>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. >> >>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as >> well >> >>>> as >> >>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as >> >>>> beacons >> >>>>> of >> >>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the >> >>> neoliberal >> >>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from >> >>> their >> >>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole >> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM >> >>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >> >>> Re-started >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might send >> >>>> them >> >>>>>>>>>> here: >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web >> >>> site >> >>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to >> implement. >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> mike >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < >> >>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> >> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion: >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and >> >>>> Science >> >>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret >> >>>>> Eisenhart >> >>>>>>>>>>> and >> >>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so during >> the >> >>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I >> shared >> >>>> the >> >>>>>>>>>>> link >> >>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion >> to a >> >>>>> halt >> >>>>>>>>>>> until >> >>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret >> and >> >>>>> Carrie >> >>>>>>>>>>> the >> >>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, >> but I >> >>>>> also >> >>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves >> as >> >>>> soon >> >>>>>>> as >> >>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a discussion >> >>> of >> >>>> an >> >>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An >> >>> American >> >>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" >> >>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark >> day >> >>>> for >> >>>>>>> the >> >>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some >> >>> grounds >> >>>>> for >> >>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home >> >>> now, >> >>>>> as >> >>>>>>>>>>> Mike >> >>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of >> >>> mind" >> >>>>> and >> >>>>>>>>>>> that >> >>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal >> >>>>>>>>>>> organisation of >> >>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to >> >>> Trump's >> >>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of >> everyday >> >>>>> life. >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on >> >>> women's >> >>>>>>>>>>> scholar >> >>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to the >> >>>>>>>>>>> discussions >> >>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I >> >>> hope >> >>>>>>> this >> >>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >> >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >> >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >>>> > >>>>>>> edu> >> >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil >> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 >> >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of >> those >> >>>>> still >> >>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins >> us >> >>>> next >> >>>>>>>>>>> week! >> >>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >> >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >> >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >>>> > >>>>>>> edu> >> >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole >> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 >> >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would be >> >>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance at >> >>> the >> >>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade >> >>> into >> >>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have >> until >> >>>> next >> >>>>>>>>>>> week >> >>>>>>>>>>> to think about it. >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to >> >>> catch >> >>>>> up! >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> mike >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that >> the >> >>>> data >> >>>>>>> in >> >>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was the >> >>>>>>>>>>> processes >> >>>>>>>>>>> of >> >>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the >> >>>>>>> externally >> >>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study >> using >> >>>>>>>>>>> theories >> >>>>>>>>>>> of >> >>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your >> >>>> position. >> >>>>> as >> >>>>>>>>>>> you >> >>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if you >> >>> are >> >>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point >> (in >> >>>> the >> >>>>>>>>>>> case >> >>>>>>>>>>> of >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the >> >>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, >> but I >> >>>>> think >> >>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it >> could >> >>>> be >> >>>>>>>>>>> traced >> >>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the adult >> >>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? that >> >>> this >> >>>>>>>>>>> narrative >> >>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather >> >>> could >> >>>>> be >> >>>>>>>>>>> traced >> >>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in >> >>> particular >> >>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american >> >>> education >> >>>>>>>>>>> began? >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen >> >>> study, >> >>>>> what >> >>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> phillip >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM >> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow >> >>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning >> and >> >>>>>>>>>>> sense. I >> >>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes >> >>> *direction* >> >>>>>>>>>>> within >> >>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of >> depends >> >>>> on >> >>>>>>>>>>> where >> >>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you >> and >> >>>> me) >> >>>>>>>>>>> way of >> >>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical >> >>> ways >> >>>> of >> >>>>>>>>>>> being >> >>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the >> >>>> *historical-in-person*. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the description >> >>> of >> >>>>> the >> >>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing >> >>>> circumstances* >> >>>>>>> as >> >>>>>>>>>>> the >> >>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> The article says: >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other >> >>>> Sociocultural >> >>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that >> >>> is, >> >>>>>>>>>>> learning >> >>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a >> >>>> particular >> >>>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not stable or >> >>>> fixed. >> >>>>>>> As >> >>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too >> may >> >>>> the >> >>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & >> Skinner, >> >>>>>>> 1997). >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity processes >> >>>> that >> >>>>>>>>>>> start >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are *external* >> >>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the >> >>>> importance >> >>>>> of >> >>>>>>>>>>> the >> >>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or primordially >> >>> to >> >>>>> the >> >>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a gap >> >>> in >> >>>>> our >> >>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* >> >>> and >> >>>>>>>>>>> highly >> >>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in >> actual*ity. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM >> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, >> >>>> unsure >> >>>>>>>>>>> where >> >>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" >> >>>>> questions >> >>>>>>>>>>> in >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be >> working >> >>>> on. >> >>>>> In >> >>>>>>>>>>> this >> >>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a moment >> >>>> which >> >>>>>>> is >> >>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big >> >>>> Bang. >> >>>>>>> But >> >>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start >> >>> (the >> >>>>> Big >> >>>>>>>>>>> Bang >> >>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention the >> >>>>> origins >> >>>>>>>>>>> of >> >>>>>>>>>>>> life). >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just >> >>>>> thoughtfully >> >>>>>>>>>>> sent >> >>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper >> leaves a >> >>>>>>> really >> >>>>>>>>>>> big >> >>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap >> is >> >>>>>>> largely >> >>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, >> >>> 'identity' >> >>>>> is >> >>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to be >> >>>>>>>>>>> sustained." >> >>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good student, >> >>>> though >> >>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest, >> >>>>>>>>>>> excitement, >> >>>>>>>>>>> or >> >>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." >> (193) >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm >> >>>> confident', >> >>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm >> >>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted in >> >>> the >> >>>>>>>>>>> context >> >>>>>>>>>>> of >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, >> their >> >>>>>>>>>>> statements >> >>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for >> >>>> being >> >>>>>>>>>>> good >> >>>>>>>>>>> in >> >>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity >> >>> characteristics >> >>>> of >> >>>>>>>>>>> being >> >>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, >> >>> do >> >>>> it >> >>>>>>>>>>> without >> >>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." >> >>> (193) >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by >> >>>>> society", >> >>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context >> of >> >>>> the >> >>>>>>>>>>> figured >> >>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to >> go >> >>>>>>> against >> >>>>>>>>>>> the >> >>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's >> >>>> views >> >>>>> as >> >>>>>>>>>>> a >> >>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that >> contradicts >> >>>> my >> >>>>>>>>>>> data: >> >>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the >> >>>> theory >> >>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also >> >>> don't >> >>>>>>>>>>> believe >> >>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I think >> >>> the >> >>>>>>> word >> >>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and >> >>> engagement >> >>>>> as >> >>>>>>>>>>> much >> >>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter easily, >> >>> do >> >>>>> the >> >>>>>>>>>>> work >> >>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than >> >>> others >> >>>>> and >> >>>>>>>>>>> get >> >>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is >> >>>>> actually >> >>>>>>>>>>> "I" >> >>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking >> >>>> about, >> >>>>>>> and >> >>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation >> >>> between >> >>>>>>>>>>> their >> >>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the >> activity >> >>> at >> >>>>>>> hand >> >>>>>>>>>>> and >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world >> of >> >>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal >> >>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a good >> >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity >> >>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in >> >>> both >> >>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky >> >>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a >> >>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and >> "you" >> >>>>>>>>>>> relationship >> >>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I >> >>> can >> >>>>> make >> >>>>>>>>>>> up >> >>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, >> >>>>>>>>>>> particularly >> >>>>>>>>>>> if >> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number >> and >> >>> a >> >>>>>>> class >> >>>>>>>>>>> over >> >>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the >> >>>> interpersonal >> >>>>>>>>>>> somehow >> >>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me like >> a >> >>>>>>> strange >> >>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) somewhere >> >>>>> between >> >>>>>>>>>>> the >> >>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, >> but I >> >>>>> think >> >>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can >> >>> probably >> >>>>> find >> >>>>>>>>>>> the >> >>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the >> >>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to >> >>>>> (Vygotsky) >> >>>>>>>>>>> the >> >>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language >> at >> >>>> one >> >>>>>>> and >> >>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) the >> >>>>> moment >> >>>>>>>>>>> when >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying >> clauses >> >>>>> ("I'm >> >>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can >> >>> pull >> >>>>> this >> >>>>>>>>>>> off") >> >>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, >> >>> which >> >>>> is >> >>>>>>>>>>> now >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< >> >>>> http://www.tandfonline >> >>>>> . >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful >> >>> paper >> >>>>>>>>>>> (which >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and >> >>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), >> >>>>>>>>>>> we >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret >> >>>> Eisenhart >> >>>>>>>>>>> and >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science >> >>>>>>>>>>> Education >> >>>>>>>>>>> in >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the >> >>>> whole >> >>>>>>>>>>> issue, >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie >> together >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity >> in >> >>>>> this >> >>>>>>>>>>>> case). >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after >> US >> >>>>>>>>>>> elections >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). >> >>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link> >>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 >> >>>>>>>>> . >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also attach >> it >> >>> as >> >>>>>>>>>>> PDF. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Thu Dec 1 18:39:47 2016 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 18:39:47 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> <33681DD3-4A40-411A-95D2-347322551F5F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <62C9002E-8C9E-437A-BA35-5D1A9E49D816@gmail.com> I can understand giving it 1. We might want it ask if it is art. It is not a documentary. yes, please take a look. Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com Berkeley, CA 94707 Blog about US and Viet Nam: helenaworthen.wordpress.com > On Dec 1, 2016, at 5:24 PM, mike cole wrote: > > PS-- the film has a rating of 1, the lowest I have ever seen. > > Hmmmmmmm, might it have to do with the pain of the message, or is it just > bad > acting? Gotta take a look. > mike > > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 5:23 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> "The measure of a man" is on Netflix, at least, Helena. I think its a >> great way to generate more discussion of neoliberalism and education that >> Margaret and Carrie's article has stirred up. I have been seeing it as the >> intensification/codification/digitalized/nanoized/ of patterns evident in >> the period dating from, say, the end of the Johnson administration. But >> quantity can convert into quality (so they say), so identifying those >> special qualities or configurations of them, would be very useful. >> >> Carrie --- Thanks for sending the suggestions for successful >> counter-examples in the form of locally implemented alternative models. It >> seems important to collect such examples in order to understand both how to >> put them together and how to sustain/diffuse them in the face of >> overwhelming pressure toward commodification >> of education. >> >> And as Alfredo wrote (but in my dialect :-)) ) , "it ain't over 'til its >> over." >> >> Helena's idea of watching a film embodying her understanding of >> neoliberalism >> seems like a way to get greater understanding of each other when >> discussing our polysemic interests. >> >> The Zuckerman article seems to speak directly into these concerns. >> >> So thanks for starting such an interesting discussion!! >> >> mike >> >> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Helena Worthen >> wrote: >> >>> Carrie, and others on xmcc: >>> >>> I?ve been watching the term ?neoliberal? float past in recent weeks. An >>> example of the ways that I?ve seen it being used is in Carrie?s most recent >>> message: >>> >>> ??. that disrupt the neoliberal model and normalized conceptions of math >>> and science, and that engage young people in the practices of the >>> disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and science in these >>> models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of the world, and >>> students in these models are positioned as those who utilize the resources >>> and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, questions, interests.? >>> >>> It sounds as if these frameworks - the math and science in these models - >>> are what is disrupting the neoliberal model. They enable students to make >>> sense of the world in a way that is an alternative to the neoliberal model. >>> >>> Discourse like this makes me want to suggest a film for shared viewing: >>> The Measure of a Man, directed by Stephane Brize, 2016. This film works >>> carefully and thoroughly through the whole experience of a middle-aged >>> white man who is trying to live in a country (France) that has given itself >>> away pretty entirely to neoliberalism. Each slow turn of the plot opens up >>> another dimension of how the neoliberal model is experienced by someone >>> who, under a different model, would have lived quite differently. >>> Amazingly, the film doesn?t leave out anything that I can think of. One of >>> its messages is how totalized the neoliberal model can be made in its >>> operation. There are of course sections that speak to education and >>> training. >>> >>> Has anyone else seen this film? >>> >>> Helena >>> >>> >>> Helena Worthen >>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>> Berkeley, CA 94707 >>> Blog about US and Viet Nam: helenaworthen.wordpress.com >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 1, 2016, at 1:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in regarding >>> other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and science. >>> First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying to >>> suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow ideas >>> about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There are >>> certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s work at >>> Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s work at >>> the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and >>> normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young people in >>> the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and >>> science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of >>> the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who utilize >>> the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, >>> questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced ways of >>> being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means by >>> which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not entirely sure >>> how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are >>> ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. >>>> STEM Researcher >>>> SRI International >>>> Center for Technology in Learning >>>> >>>> >>>> (650) 859-5262 >>>> Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 >>>> Skype: carrie.allen_9 >>>> >>>> On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of >>> lpscholar2@gmail.com" >> lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a >>> particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. >>>> This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes >>> approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our >>> inquiry. >>>> This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of learning. >>>> >>>> Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be >>> foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>> >>>> From: Edward Wall >>>> Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>> >>>> Larry >>>> >>>> There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I?m >>> not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics >>>> >>>> 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) >>>> 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a teacher >>> at one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). >>>> 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 >>>> 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the >>> Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the evidence >>> isn?t clear) >>>> >>>> Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is put >>> off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; >>> however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey >>> recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according to >>> some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this is a >>> bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling for >>> the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> >>>>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates >>> (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it possible we >>> are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or >>> historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation that were >>> not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or incarnate >>> deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. >>>>> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural imaginaries) >>> that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture well-being? >>>>> >>>>> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>> >>>>> From: Huw Lloyd >>>>> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems >>> inherent >>>>> in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues can be >>>>> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that can be >>>>> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for "good >>>>> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real >>> problem >>>>> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like Davydov's >>>>> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". >>> There >>>>> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important >>>>> implications. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Huw, >>>>>> >>>>>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, social) >>>>>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the >>> formation >>>>>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all educational >>>>>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather should >>> be >>>>>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, *pathological* >>> (or >>>>>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and >>>>>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some young >>>>>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was >>> Mike who >>>>>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question is, >>> will >>>>>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the double >>> bind >>>>>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only include >>> the >>>>>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a higher >>> order >>>>>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to grow >>>>>> rather than come to stall). >>>>>> >>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> du> >>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd >>>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>>> >>>>>> Alfredo, >>>>>> >>>>>> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is >>> another >>>>>> matter. >>>>>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, because >>> there >>>>>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is >>> educational -- >>>>>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an Illich >>>>>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it just >>>>>> takes a different course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Huw >>>>>> >>>>>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates to >>> this >>>>>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to >>>>>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, that >>>>>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between >>> two, >>>>>> not >>>>>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and >>>>>> Phillip's >>>>>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as all >>> we >>>>>> do. >>>>>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have >>> wonderfully >>>>>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in >>> maths, >>>>>> but >>>>>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever >>> that >>>>>> best >>>>>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and context >>> that >>>>>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives and >>>>>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it so >>> that >>>>>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, >>> according >>>>>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a >>> hollowed-out >>>>>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had >>> illusion >>>>>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities to >>>>>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but >>> also a >>>>>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown in >>>>>> people >>>>>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we >>> have a >>>>>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? Not >>> just >>>>>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> du> >>>>>>> on behalf of White, Phillip >>>>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these >>>>>> examples >>>>>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at where >>> she >>>>>> is >>>>>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a looking >>>>>> back >>>>>>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then >>> setting a >>>>>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, so >>>>>> yeah, >>>>>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of >>> present >>>>>>> activities to attain future goals. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely on >>>>>> their >>>>>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all >>> about >>>>>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people >>> like me >>>>>>> do. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in >>> this >>>>>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> du> >>>>>>> on behalf of David Kellogg >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty >>> mental >>>>>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles I >>> have >>>>>> a >>>>>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing >>> rather >>>>>> than >>>>>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is >>>>>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense of >>> some >>>>>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on tenses, >>> and >>>>>> the >>>>>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in and >>> out >>>>>> of >>>>>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the >>> way >>>>>> the >>>>>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see >>>>>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at what >>> the >>>>>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this >>> simply >>>>>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take simple >>>>>> present >>>>>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it >>> because >>>>>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the >>>>>> figured >>>>>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is youth? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very >>> much a >>>>>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" you >>>>>> often >>>>>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? >>>>>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to >>> find >>>>>> out >>>>>>> if anybody really cares. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: >>> both >>>>>> the >>>>>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of >>> statistical >>>>>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the morning >>>>>> after >>>>>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of those >>>>>> black >>>>>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but >>> couldn't be >>>>>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class voters" >>> who >>>>>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North >>> Carolina >>>>>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently >>> knowing how >>>>>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented as >>>>>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would be >>>>>> part >>>>>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that >>> use >>>>>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the >>> impossible >>>>>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times >>> without >>>>>> any >>>>>>> memory at all). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together you >>>>>> notice >>>>>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your >>>>>> question, >>>>>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend to >>>>>> change >>>>>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On the >>> one >>>>>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too >>> wholly >>>>>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of these >>>>>> moments >>>>>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in >>>>>> itself. >>>>>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and >>> objects >>>>>> in >>>>>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David, >>>>>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this topic, >>>>>> but >>>>>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection >>> between >>>>>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged?interactants >>>>>> view >>>>>>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is >>>>>> largely >>>>>>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians as >>>>>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be >>> interesting >>>>>> to >>>>>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each >>>>>> other >>>>>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of >>> connecting >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to >>>>>> clarify >>>>>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential elections, >>>>>> and >>>>>>>> what not. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and Halliday >>> on >>>>>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in >>> ?basic >>>>>>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has >>> said >>>>>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As >>> you?d >>>>>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what >>> he >>>>>>> calls >>>>>>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain >>> is >>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he analyzes >>>>>> tense >>>>>>>> and aspect. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar >>> has a >>>>>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage >>> based, >>>>>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I think >>>>>>> there >>>>>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m not >>>>>>> smart >>>>>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection >>> must >>>>>> be >>>>>>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? ethnographers >>>>>> are >>>>>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is >>> raising >>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> issue. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with the >>>>>>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that >>> the >>>>>>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may say >>>>>> that >>>>>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school >>> was >>>>>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I got >>> to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin >>> under >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in Chapter >>> 8 >>>>>> of >>>>>>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I?ll end it there. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Henry: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and >>>>>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the >>>>>>>> different >>>>>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker somehow >>>>>>> sees >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space within >>>>>>>> space). >>>>>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and >>>>>>>> happenings. >>>>>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's >>>>>>>> temporally >>>>>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that >>>>>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either >>>>>> proleptically >>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article >>> we >>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three >>>>>> weeks >>>>>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has >>> been >>>>>>>> (past) >>>>>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me >>>>>> that >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That is, >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more >>> and >>>>>>>> less >>>>>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example >>> in >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the >>>>>> task >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, the >>>>>>>> scope, >>>>>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science identities >>>>>> and >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this >>>>>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed out >>> a >>>>>>>> little >>>>>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the >>> damn >>>>>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing the >>>>>>>> other: >>>>>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some task >>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space >>>>>> and >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way >>> you >>>>>>> dig >>>>>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the >>>>>>>> article: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans", >>>>>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP classes) >>>>>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or what >>>>>>>> Eckhart >>>>>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', >>>>>>> 'gangbangers') >>>>>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and >>> what >>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> think about themselves) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are >>>>>>>> probably >>>>>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really >>> do >>>>>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). >>> Different >>>>>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of the >>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers and >>>>>>>> groups >>>>>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's >>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the >>>>>> data >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against what >>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of >>>>>>>>> intervention is. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured by >>>>>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that >>> just >>>>>> an >>>>>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words (although >>>>>>> maybe >>>>>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds >>> for >>>>>>>> hope? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own >>>>>>>> *history*, >>>>>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* >>> it >>>>>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances >>> existing >>>>>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of >>> all >>>>>>> dead >>>>>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a >>>>>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I >>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera John-Steiner >>>>>> and >>>>>>>> her >>>>>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating Mathematics: >>>>>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers to >>>>>>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within >>> these >>>>>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and >>>>>> Reuben?s >>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real (working) >>>>>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we call >>>>>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching >>> of >>>>>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and could >>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> relevant to this discussion. >>>>>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd >>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Dear Margaret >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave it >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous term >>>>>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments >>> about >>>>>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place of >>>>>>>>>> identity. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of >>>>>> "model >>>>>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM subjects >>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with >>>>>> identifying >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to >>> find >>>>>>>> out" >>>>>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is >>>>>>>>>> foregrounded >>>>>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background >>>>>> social >>>>>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at >>> the >>>>>>>> role >>>>>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about >>>>>>>> unknowns. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set >>> of >>>>>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such >>> that >>>>>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable within >>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with >>> the >>>>>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < >>>>>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for >>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed >>> Out.? >>>>>>> We >>>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream >>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> thinking here! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas >>> about >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we would >>>>>> like >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students >>>>>> were >>>>>>>>>> making >>>>>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them >>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured >>>>>>> worlds >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us >>>>>> reflected >>>>>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty >>>>>> serious >>>>>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what >>>>>> theories >>>>>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of >>>>>> ?exemplars? >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>> might turn to. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < >>>>>> lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably >>> sens >>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning >>> and >>>>>>>>>> sense) >>>>>>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of (hollowed-out) >>>>>>>> meaning >>>>>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for >>>>>>>> developing a >>>>>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of >>>>>> social >>>>>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about improving >>>>>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of >>> the >>>>>>>> study >>>>>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary >>>>>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, >>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section >>> (identity-in-context) >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured >>> worlds). >>>>>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of history-in-person. >>>>>>> That >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of >>> person >>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. >>>>>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries >>> (figured >>>>>>>>>> worlds) >>>>>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local practices >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially >>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are >>>>>>>>>> recognized >>>>>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological >>>>>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* >>> to >>>>>>>>>> *what* >>>>>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we >>>>>> take. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn >>>>>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper >>> ethical >>>>>>>> turn >>>>>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as >>> well >>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as >>>>>>> beacons >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the >>>>>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from >>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>> Re-started >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might send >>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>> here: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web >>>>>> site >>>>>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to >>> implement. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < >>>>>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and >>>>>>> Science >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret >>>>>>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so during >>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I >>> shared >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> link >>>>>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion >>> to a >>>>>>>> halt >>>>>>>>>>>>>> until >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret >>> and >>>>>>>> Carrie >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, >>> but I >>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves >>> as >>>>>>> soon >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a discussion >>>>>> of >>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An >>>>>> American >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark >>> day >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some >>>>>> grounds >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home >>>>>> now, >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of >>>>>> mind" >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> organisation of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to >>>>>> Trump's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of >>> everyday >>>>>>>> life. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on >>>>>> women's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> scholar >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I >>>>>> hope >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of >>> those >>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins >>> us >>>>>>> next >>>>>>>>>>>>>> week! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance at >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade >>>>>> into >>>>>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have >>> until >>>>>>> next >>>>>>>>>>>>>> week >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to think about it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to >>>>>> catch >>>>>>>> up! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that >>> the >>>>>>> data >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> processes >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the >>>>>>>>>> externally >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study >>> using >>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your >>>>>>> position. >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if you >>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point >>> (in >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, >>> but I >>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it >>> could >>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the adult >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? that >>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrative >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather >>>>>> could >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in >>>>>> particular >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american >>>>>> education >>>>>>>>>>>>>> began? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen >>>>>> study, >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning >>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes >>>>>> *direction* >>>>>>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of >>> depends >>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you >>> and >>>>>>> me) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> way of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical >>>>>> ways >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the >>>>>>> *historical-in-person*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the description >>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing >>>>>>> circumstances* >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article says: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other >>>>>>> Sociocultural >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that >>>>>> is, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> learning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a >>>>>>> particular >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not stable or >>>>>>> fixed. >>>>>>>>>> As >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too >>> may >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & >>> Skinner, >>>>>>>>>> 1997). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity processes >>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> start >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are *external* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the >>>>>>> importance >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or primordially >>>>>> to >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a gap >>>>>> in >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> highly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in >>> actual*ity. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, >>>>>>> unsure >>>>>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" >>>>>>>> questions >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be >>> working >>>>>>> on. >>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a moment >>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big >>>>>>> Bang. >>>>>>>>>> But >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start >>>>>> (the >>>>>>>> Big >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bang >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention the >>>>>>>> origins >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just >>>>>>>> thoughtfully >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper >>> leaves a >>>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>>>>>> big >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap >>> is >>>>>>>>>> largely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, >>>>>> 'identity' >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sustained." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good student, >>>>>>> though >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> excitement, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." >>> (193) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm >>>>>>> confident', >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted in >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> context >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, >>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> statements >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for >>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity >>>>>> characteristics >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, >>>>>> do >>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." >>>>>> (193) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by >>>>>>>> society", >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context >>> of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> figured >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to >>> go >>>>>>>>>> against >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's >>>>>>> views >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that >>> contradicts >>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> data: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the >>>>>>> theory >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also >>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I think >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> word >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and >>>>>> engagement >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter easily, >>>>>> do >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than >>>>>> others >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is >>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "I" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking >>>>>>> about, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation >>>>>> between >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the >>> activity >>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> hand >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world >>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a good >>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in >>>>>> both >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and >>> "you" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> relationship >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I >>>>>> can >>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly >>>>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number >>> and >>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> class >>>>>>>>>>>>>> over >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the >>>>>>> interpersonal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me like >>> a >>>>>>>>>> strange >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) somewhere >>>>>>>> between >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, >>> but I >>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can >>>>>> probably >>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to >>>>>>>> (Vygotsky) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language >>> at >>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) the >>>>>>>> moment >>>>>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying >>> clauses >>>>>>>> ("I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can >>>>>> pull >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> off") >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, >>>>>> which >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< >>>>>>> http://www.tandfonline >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful >>>>>> paper >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret >>>>>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Education >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the >>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie >>> together >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity >>> in >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after >>> US >>>>>>>>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 >>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also attach >>> it >>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PDF. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Dec 1 19:37:25 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:37:25 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no> References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com>, <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> Alfredo, How accepted is this perspective of the Vygotskian legacy as being (intermental) through and through? The metaphor (turtles all the way down) comes to mind? This perspective opens up the ideal or the possible of learning collaboration as involving a spectrum or a layering of developmental periods that emphasize a (merging quality) but emphasizes that all the periods continue to be alive and animated. This includes the original receptivity marking the infants gestures, and imitation, and play/imaginal and learning activity as all active ingredients creating the personality. To later become reflective and acquire some degree of volition over these earlier more primordial deeper layers/spectrum of merged abilities as secondary phenomena of learning collaboration seems to occur as a derivative experience (after the experience of merger). Opens up the question of central lines for further inquiry in the back and forth. This term (intermental) seems to be a key notion for opening locked doors Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 4:19 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, this way of articulating a Vygotskian approach to?learning as?NOT?something that?simply?first is external?and?that then becomes internal, is one of the things that most attracted me from this paper. The competences and cognitive functions that Galina describes are intermental through and through,?even when?she talks of a "happy end" where the competence to initiate collaboration?is interiorized?.?This resonates quite well with?an argument that Michael R.?and myself have been advancing recently referring to the inter-intrasubjectivity?(see e.g., MCA perezhivanie issue), although critical readers will note that?we advance the argument?in a way much more metaphorical than Galina's reported experiments?(and being metaphorical?is a?fair critique, though being so may ?also be a good way to move forward to new concrete research programs).? Another thing I like is that the article?raises a question of distinguishing (or not) between relations of learner and a skilled person (may we say, an apprenticeship?) on the one hand, and between learner and *teacher* on the other. An advantage of this approach is that it allows tracing those genetic lines of development that are specific to teaching (teaching/learning) situations of the kind western schools and middle class parents sometimes exercise exhibiting and generating expectations of learning to think and solve problems independently. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 01 December 2016 21:21 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" ? Alfredo, Since you opened a new thread for the Zukerman article -in particular ? I will highlight ?a central question from page 17 that is organizing the article for the reader?s ability to respond. ? The last paragraph on page 17 opens with: ? Just what is learning collaboration? ? The answer given: ? It can be (understood) in two ways. It can be seen as a sort of scaffolding temporarily needed for mental development ? until children aquire the ability to apply scientific concepts INDEPENDENTLY, to frame and solve problems demanding theoretical thinking without the help of a teacher. However, learning collaboration can also be (interpreted) not as an ancillary developmental tool, not as an EXTERNAL removable support created in the course of building the mental ediface, but as an important part of this ediface, as? A VALUABLE ABILITY ESSENTIAL TO HUMANS AT ANY POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE. ? It is this 2nd version of (learning collaboration) as a valuable (intermental ability) that continues and is universal, that this paper is highlighting for our further inquiry into ? Just what is learning collaboration? As an aspect of answering, Just what is education? A four way back and forth co-generation of genetic phenomenology ? Sent from my Windows 10 phone ? From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: December 1, 2016 8:09 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" ? Alfredo, A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to learn (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active force in learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. ? Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the concepts (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky school: 1)????? As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out with the help of an adult, it is NOT independent 2)????? People can independently bring about? collaborative (intermental action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. ? A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist within the Vygotsky school. To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. As Zackerman says: Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the adult disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. ? This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and purpose. The key question shifts to become: What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY structure (intermental) action. ? I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School exploration of developmental paths. Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration of others. Note that both alternatives ?are offering the key to answering -what is education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into this open question ? ? ? Sent from my Windows 10 phone ? From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an educationbe?" ? Alfredo, ? WHAT is education. This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing stream. ? On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of (intermental) collaboration. Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of intermental collaboration. Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to *endure*. What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving adult as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a thing of inherent value. ? THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school age). So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. ? This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next period emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and *enduring* form of collaboration. ? Sent from my Windows 10 phone ? From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education be?" ? Hi all, ? ? I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue 3 lead article. ? ? ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal reading of 3 articles:? Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's reading of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. ? ? A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, has to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most importantly, ?the question is also about what education could instead be as possibility, as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are necessary: we need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as much as we need a notion of what a good education could be. ? ? Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading for the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I think we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article (recently mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition brings in is, in my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for connecting the two questions posed above, the one on the facts of education and the one on possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter question on possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability to learn is. She writes: ? ? "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what abilities children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular developmental potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm in childhood development" ? Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and the desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are *educability* and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies in the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. ? ? I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for many reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on age that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses the connection between communication and generalization, a connection that became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and generalization, in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the "internalisation" way of languaging it). ? ? The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. ? Alfredo ? ? ? ? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DE9C3EFC514A472FA625F367AA88797F.png Type: image/png Size: 234 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161201/cc75d3cf/attachment.png From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Thu Dec 1 21:40:46 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 05:40:46 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com>, <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no>, <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no> Larry, how accepted one view on Vygotsky is, is something many others in this list know better than me. When I began reading Vygotsky, many here had already bee studying his original works for 30 years... I know, however, that it is easy to simplify matters one way or another. It is quite common, for example, to find published papers where Vygotskian concepts are used in ways that effectively reify cognitivist views that cognitive science itself has been trying to get rid off for long time now. Perhaps the question is not so much about how accepted a version of a legacy is, and perhaps less so how accurate that version is with the original intention, but how generative this version is for whatever we find useful pursuing. A view where joint action leads to freedom in the generation of future joint action (the turtles all the way down), and not independently of it, seems to me more promising than other versions. Although many things in this article are surely debatable, it certainly offers an original and appealing view on what independence, or becoming and independent learner means. Vygotskian historians have noted that Vygotsky often referred to Bacon's aphorism "natura parendo vincitur"... In G.Zuckerman's article, mastering one's relation to others is achieved by becoming subject and subjecting to those relations. Alfredo ________________________________ From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 02 December 2016 04:37 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, How accepted is this perspective of the Vygotskian legacy as being (intermental) through and through? The metaphor (turtles all the way down) comes to mind? This perspective opens up the ideal or the possible of learning collaboration as involving a spectrum or a layering of developmental periods that emphasize a (merging quality) but emphasizes that all the periods continue to be alive and animated. This includes the original receptivity marking the infants gestures, and imitation, and play/imaginal and learning activity as all active ingredients creating the personality. To later become reflective and acquire some degree of volition over these earlier more primordial deeper layers/spectrum of merged abilities as secondary phenomena of learning collaboration seems to occur as a derivative experience (after the experience of merger). Opens up the question of central lines for further inquiry in the back and forth. This term (intermental) seems to be a key notion for opening locked doors Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 4:19 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, this way of articulating a Vygotskian approach to learning as NOT something that simply first is external and that then becomes internal, is one of the things that most attracted me from this paper. The competences and cognitive functions that Galina describes are intermental through and through, even when she talks of a "happy end" where the competence to initiate collaboration is interiorized?. This resonates quite well with an argument that Michael R. and myself have been advancing recently referring to the inter-intrasubjectivity (see e.g., MCA perezhivanie issue), although critical readers will note that we advance the argument in a way much more metaphorical than Galina's reported experiments (and being metaphorical is a fair critique, though being so may also be a good way to move forward to new concrete research programs). Another thing I like is that the article raises a question of distinguishing (or not) between relations of learner and a skilled person (may we say, an apprenticeship?) on the one hand, and between learner and *teacher* on the other. An advantage of this approach is that it allows tracing those genetic lines of development that are specific to teaching (teaching/learning) situations of the kind western schools and middle class parents sometimes exercise exhibiting and generating expectations of learning to think and solve problems independently. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 01 December 2016 21:21 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, Since you opened a new thread for the Zukerman article -in particular ? I will highlight a central question from page 17 that is organizing the article for the reader?s ability to respond. The last paragraph on page 17 opens with: Just what is learning collaboration? The answer given: It can be (understood) in two ways. It can be seen as a sort of scaffolding temporarily needed for mental development ? until children aquire the ability to apply scientific concepts INDEPENDENTLY, to frame and solve problems demanding theoretical thinking without the help of a teacher. However, learning collaboration can also be (interpreted) not as an ancillary developmental tool, not as an EXTERNAL removable support created in the course of building the mental ediface, but as an important part of this ediface, as A VALUABLE ABILITY ESSENTIAL TO HUMANS AT ANY POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE. It is this 2nd version of (learning collaboration) as a valuable (intermental ability) that continues and is universal, that this paper is highlighting for our further inquiry into Just what is learning collaboration? As an aspect of answering, Just what is education? A four way back and forth co-generation of genetic phenomenology Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: December 1, 2016 8:09 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to learn (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active force in learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the concepts (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky school: 1) As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out with the help of an adult, it is NOT independent 2) People can independently bring about collaborative (intermental action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist within the Vygotsky school. To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. As Zackerman says: Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the adult disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and purpose. The key question shifts to become: What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY structure (intermental) action. I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School exploration of developmental paths. Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration of others. Note that both alternatives are offering the key to answering -what is education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into this open question Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an educationbe?" Alfredo, ? WHAT is education. This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing stream. On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of (intermental) collaboration. Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of intermental collaboration. Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to *endure*. What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving adult as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a thing of inherent value. THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school age). So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next period emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and *enduring* form of collaboration. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education be?" Hi all, I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue 3 lead article. ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal reading of 3 articles: Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's reading of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, has to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most importantly, ?the question is also about what education could instead be as possibility, as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are necessary: we need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as much as we need a notion of what a good education could be. Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading for the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I think we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article (recently mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition brings in is, in my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for connecting the two questions posed above, the one on the facts of education and the one on possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter question on possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability to learn is. She writes: "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what abilities children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular developmental potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm in childhood development" Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and the desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are *educability* and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies in the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for many reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on age that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses the connection between communication and generalization, a connection that became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and generalization, in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the "internalisation" way of languaging it). The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. Alfredo -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DE9C3EFC514A472FA625F367AA88797F.png Type: image/png Size: 234 bytes Desc: DE9C3EFC514A472FA625F367AA88797F.png Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161202/e8649f6c/attachment.png From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Thu Dec 1 21:50:40 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 05:50:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: <62C9002E-8C9E-437A-BA35-5D1A9E49D816@gmail.com> References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> <33681DD3-4A40-411A-95D2-347322551F5F@gmail.com> , <62C9002E-8C9E-437A-BA35-5D1A9E49D816@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1480658264896.53311@iped.uio.no> 1 star in netflix makes it even more attractive to me. Will try to watch it! Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Helena Worthen Sent: 02 December 2016 03:39 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started I can understand giving it 1. We might want it ask if it is art. It is not a documentary. yes, please take a look. Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com Berkeley, CA 94707 Blog about US and Viet Nam: helenaworthen.wordpress.com > On Dec 1, 2016, at 5:24 PM, mike cole wrote: > > PS-- the film has a rating of 1, the lowest I have ever seen. > > Hmmmmmmm, might it have to do with the pain of the message, or is it just > bad > acting? Gotta take a look. > mike > > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 5:23 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> "The measure of a man" is on Netflix, at least, Helena. I think its a >> great way to generate more discussion of neoliberalism and education that >> Margaret and Carrie's article has stirred up. I have been seeing it as the >> intensification/codification/digitalized/nanoized/ of patterns evident in >> the period dating from, say, the end of the Johnson administration. But >> quantity can convert into quality (so they say), so identifying those >> special qualities or configurations of them, would be very useful. >> >> Carrie --- Thanks for sending the suggestions for successful >> counter-examples in the form of locally implemented alternative models. It >> seems important to collect such examples in order to understand both how to >> put them together and how to sustain/diffuse them in the face of >> overwhelming pressure toward commodification >> of education. >> >> And as Alfredo wrote (but in my dialect :-)) ) , "it ain't over 'til its >> over." >> >> Helena's idea of watching a film embodying her understanding of >> neoliberalism >> seems like a way to get greater understanding of each other when >> discussing our polysemic interests. >> >> The Zuckerman article seems to speak directly into these concerns. >> >> So thanks for starting such an interesting discussion!! >> >> mike >> >> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Helena Worthen >> wrote: >> >>> Carrie, and others on xmcc: >>> >>> I?ve been watching the term ?neoliberal? float past in recent weeks. An >>> example of the ways that I?ve seen it being used is in Carrie?s most recent >>> message: >>> >>> ??. that disrupt the neoliberal model and normalized conceptions of math >>> and science, and that engage young people in the practices of the >>> disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and science in these >>> models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of the world, and >>> students in these models are positioned as those who utilize the resources >>> and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, questions, interests.? >>> >>> It sounds as if these frameworks - the math and science in these models - >>> are what is disrupting the neoliberal model. They enable students to make >>> sense of the world in a way that is an alternative to the neoliberal model. >>> >>> Discourse like this makes me want to suggest a film for shared viewing: >>> The Measure of a Man, directed by Stephane Brize, 2016. This film works >>> carefully and thoroughly through the whole experience of a middle-aged >>> white man who is trying to live in a country (France) that has given itself >>> away pretty entirely to neoliberalism. Each slow turn of the plot opens up >>> another dimension of how the neoliberal model is experienced by someone >>> who, under a different model, would have lived quite differently. >>> Amazingly, the film doesn?t leave out anything that I can think of. One of >>> its messages is how totalized the neoliberal model can be made in its >>> operation. There are of course sections that speak to education and >>> training. >>> >>> Has anyone else seen this film? >>> >>> Helena >>> >>> >>> Helena Worthen >>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>> Berkeley, CA 94707 >>> Blog about US and Viet Nam: helenaworthen.wordpress.com >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 1, 2016, at 1:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in regarding >>> other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and science. >>> First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying to >>> suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow ideas >>> about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There are >>> certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s work at >>> Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s work at >>> the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and >>> normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young people in >>> the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and >>> science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of >>> the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who utilize >>> the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, >>> questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced ways of >>> being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means by >>> which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not entirely sure >>> how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are >>> ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. >>>> STEM Researcher >>>> SRI International >>>> Center for Technology in Learning >>>> >>>> >>>> (650) 859-5262 >>>> Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 >>>> Skype: carrie.allen_9 >>>> >>>> On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of >>> lpscholar2@gmail.com" >> lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a >>> particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. >>>> This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes >>> approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our >>> inquiry. >>>> This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of learning. >>>> >>>> Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be >>> foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>> >>>> From: Edward Wall >>>> Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>> >>>> Larry >>>> >>>> There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I?m >>> not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics >>>> >>>> 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) >>>> 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a teacher >>> at one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). >>>> 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 >>>> 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the >>> Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the evidence >>> isn?t clear) >>>> >>>> Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is put >>> off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; >>> however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey >>> recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according to >>> some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this is a >>> bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling for >>> the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> >>>>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates >>> (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it possible we >>> are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or >>> historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation that were >>> not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or incarnate >>> deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. >>>>> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural imaginaries) >>> that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture well-being? >>>>> >>>>> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>> >>>>> From: Huw Lloyd >>>>> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems >>> inherent >>>>> in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues can be >>>>> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that can be >>>>> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for "good >>>>> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real >>> problem >>>>> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like Davydov's >>>>> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". >>> There >>>>> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important >>>>> implications. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Huw, >>>>>> >>>>>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, social) >>>>>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the >>> formation >>>>>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all educational >>>>>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather should >>> be >>>>>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, *pathological* >>> (or >>>>>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and >>>>>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some young >>>>>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was >>> Mike who >>>>>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question is, >>> will >>>>>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the double >>> bind >>>>>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only include >>> the >>>>>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a higher >>> order >>>>>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to grow >>>>>> rather than come to stall). >>>>>> >>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> du> >>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd >>>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>>> >>>>>> Alfredo, >>>>>> >>>>>> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is >>> another >>>>>> matter. >>>>>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, because >>> there >>>>>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is >>> educational -- >>>>>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an Illich >>>>>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it just >>>>>> takes a different course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Huw >>>>>> >>>>>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates to >>> this >>>>>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to >>>>>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, that >>>>>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between >>> two, >>>>>> not >>>>>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and >>>>>> Phillip's >>>>>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as all >>> we >>>>>> do. >>>>>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have >>> wonderfully >>>>>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in >>> maths, >>>>>> but >>>>>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever >>> that >>>>>> best >>>>>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and context >>> that >>>>>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives and >>>>>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it so >>> that >>>>>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, >>> according >>>>>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a >>> hollowed-out >>>>>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had >>> illusion >>>>>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities to >>>>>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but >>> also a >>>>>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown in >>>>>> people >>>>>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we >>> have a >>>>>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? Not >>> just >>>>>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> du> >>>>>>> on behalf of White, Phillip >>>>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these >>>>>> examples >>>>>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at where >>> she >>>>>> is >>>>>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a looking >>>>>> back >>>>>>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then >>> setting a >>>>>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, so >>>>>> yeah, >>>>>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of >>> present >>>>>>> activities to attain future goals. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely on >>>>>> their >>>>>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all >>> about >>>>>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people >>> like me >>>>>>> do. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in >>> this >>>>>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> du> >>>>>>> on behalf of David Kellogg >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty >>> mental >>>>>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles I >>> have >>>>>> a >>>>>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing >>> rather >>>>>> than >>>>>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is >>>>>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense of >>> some >>>>>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on tenses, >>> and >>>>>> the >>>>>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in and >>> out >>>>>> of >>>>>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the >>> way >>>>>> the >>>>>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see >>>>>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at what >>> the >>>>>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this >>> simply >>>>>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take simple >>>>>> present >>>>>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it >>> because >>>>>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the >>>>>> figured >>>>>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is youth? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very >>> much a >>>>>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" you >>>>>> often >>>>>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? >>>>>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to >>> find >>>>>> out >>>>>>> if anybody really cares. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: >>> both >>>>>> the >>>>>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of >>> statistical >>>>>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the morning >>>>>> after >>>>>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of those >>>>>> black >>>>>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but >>> couldn't be >>>>>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class voters" >>> who >>>>>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North >>> Carolina >>>>>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently >>> knowing how >>>>>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented as >>>>>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would be >>>>>> part >>>>>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that >>> use >>>>>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the >>> impossible >>>>>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times >>> without >>>>>> any >>>>>>> memory at all). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together you >>>>>> notice >>>>>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your >>>>>> question, >>>>>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend to >>>>>> change >>>>>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On the >>> one >>>>>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too >>> wholly >>>>>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of these >>>>>> moments >>>>>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in >>>>>> itself. >>>>>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and >>> objects >>>>>> in >>>>>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David, >>>>>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this topic, >>>>>> but >>>>>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection >>> between >>>>>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged?interactants >>>>>> view >>>>>>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is >>>>>> largely >>>>>>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians as >>>>>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be >>> interesting >>>>>> to >>>>>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each >>>>>> other >>>>>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of >>> connecting >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to >>>>>> clarify >>>>>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential elections, >>>>>> and >>>>>>>> what not. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and Halliday >>> on >>>>>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in >>> ?basic >>>>>>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has >>> said >>>>>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As >>> you?d >>>>>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what >>> he >>>>>>> calls >>>>>>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain >>> is >>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he analyzes >>>>>> tense >>>>>>>> and aspect. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar >>> has a >>>>>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage >>> based, >>>>>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I think >>>>>>> there >>>>>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m not >>>>>>> smart >>>>>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection >>> must >>>>>> be >>>>>>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? ethnographers >>>>>> are >>>>>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is >>> raising >>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> issue. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with the >>>>>>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that >>> the >>>>>>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may say >>>>>> that >>>>>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school >>> was >>>>>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I got >>> to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin >>> under >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in Chapter >>> 8 >>>>>> of >>>>>>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I?ll end it there. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Henry: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and >>>>>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the >>>>>>>> different >>>>>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker somehow >>>>>>> sees >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space within >>>>>>>> space). >>>>>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and >>>>>>>> happenings. >>>>>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's >>>>>>>> temporally >>>>>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that >>>>>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either >>>>>> proleptically >>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article >>> we >>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three >>>>>> weeks >>>>>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has >>> been >>>>>>>> (past) >>>>>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me >>>>>> that >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That is, >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more >>> and >>>>>>>> less >>>>>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example >>> in >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the >>>>>> task >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, the >>>>>>>> scope, >>>>>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science identities >>>>>> and >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this >>>>>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed out >>> a >>>>>>>> little >>>>>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the >>> damn >>>>>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing the >>>>>>>> other: >>>>>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some task >>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space >>>>>> and >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way >>> you >>>>>>> dig >>>>>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the >>>>>>>> article: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans", >>>>>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP classes) >>>>>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or what >>>>>>>> Eckhart >>>>>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', >>>>>>> 'gangbangers') >>>>>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and >>> what >>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> think about themselves) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are >>>>>>>> probably >>>>>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really >>> do >>>>>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). >>> Different >>>>>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of the >>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers and >>>>>>>> groups >>>>>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's >>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the >>>>>> data >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against what >>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of >>>>>>>>> intervention is. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured by >>>>>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that >>> just >>>>>> an >>>>>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words (although >>>>>>> maybe >>>>>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds >>> for >>>>>>>> hope? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own >>>>>>>> *history*, >>>>>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* >>> it >>>>>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances >>> existing >>>>>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of >>> all >>>>>>> dead >>>>>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a >>>>>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I >>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera John-Steiner >>>>>> and >>>>>>>> her >>>>>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating Mathematics: >>>>>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers to >>>>>>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within >>> these >>>>>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and >>>>>> Reuben?s >>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real (working) >>>>>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we call >>>>>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching >>> of >>>>>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and could >>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> relevant to this discussion. >>>>>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd >>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Dear Margaret >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave it >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous term >>>>>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments >>> about >>>>>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place of >>>>>>>>>> identity. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of >>>>>> "model >>>>>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM subjects >>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with >>>>>> identifying >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to >>> find >>>>>>>> out" >>>>>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is >>>>>>>>>> foregrounded >>>>>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background >>>>>> social >>>>>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at >>> the >>>>>>>> role >>>>>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about >>>>>>>> unknowns. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set >>> of >>>>>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such >>> that >>>>>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable within >>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with >>> the >>>>>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < >>>>>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for >>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed >>> Out.? >>>>>>> We >>>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream >>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> thinking here! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas >>> about >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we would >>>>>> like >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students >>>>>> were >>>>>>>>>> making >>>>>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them >>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured >>>>>>> worlds >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us >>>>>> reflected >>>>>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty >>>>>> serious >>>>>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what >>>>>> theories >>>>>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of >>>>>> ?exemplars? >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>> might turn to. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < >>>>>> lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably >>> sens >>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning >>> and >>>>>>>>>> sense) >>>>>>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of (hollowed-out) >>>>>>>> meaning >>>>>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for >>>>>>>> developing a >>>>>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of >>>>>> social >>>>>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about improving >>>>>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of >>> the >>>>>>>> study >>>>>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary >>>>>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, >>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section >>> (identity-in-context) >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured >>> worlds). >>>>>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of history-in-person. >>>>>>> That >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of >>> person >>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. >>>>>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries >>> (figured >>>>>>>>>> worlds) >>>>>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local practices >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially >>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are >>>>>>>>>> recognized >>>>>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological >>>>>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* >>> to >>>>>>>>>> *what* >>>>>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we >>>>>> take. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn >>>>>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper >>> ethical >>>>>>>> turn >>>>>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as >>> well >>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as >>>>>>> beacons >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the >>>>>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from >>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>> Re-started >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might send >>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>> here: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web >>>>>> site >>>>>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to >>> implement. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < >>>>>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and >>>>>>> Science >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret >>>>>>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so during >>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I >>> shared >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> link >>>>>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion >>> to a >>>>>>>> halt >>>>>>>>>>>>>> until >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret >>> and >>>>>>>> Carrie >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, >>> but I >>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves >>> as >>>>>>> soon >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a discussion >>>>>> of >>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An >>>>>> American >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark >>> day >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some >>>>>> grounds >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home >>>>>> now, >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of >>>>>> mind" >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> organisation of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to >>>>>> Trump's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of >>> everyday >>>>>>>> life. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on >>>>>> women's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> scholar >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I >>>>>> hope >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of >>> those >>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins >>> us >>>>>>> next >>>>>>>>>>>>>> week! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance at >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade >>>>>> into >>>>>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have >>> until >>>>>>> next >>>>>>>>>>>>>> week >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to think about it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to >>>>>> catch >>>>>>>> up! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that >>> the >>>>>>> data >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> processes >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the >>>>>>>>>> externally >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study >>> using >>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your >>>>>>> position. >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if you >>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point >>> (in >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, >>> but I >>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it >>> could >>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the adult >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? that >>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrative >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather >>>>>> could >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in >>>>>> particular >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american >>>>>> education >>>>>>>>>>>>>> began? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen >>>>>> study, >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning >>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes >>>>>> *direction* >>>>>>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of >>> depends >>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you >>> and >>>>>>> me) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> way of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical >>>>>> ways >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the >>>>>>> *historical-in-person*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the description >>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing >>>>>>> circumstances* >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article says: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other >>>>>>> Sociocultural >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that >>>>>> is, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> learning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a >>>>>>> particular >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not stable or >>>>>>> fixed. >>>>>>>>>> As >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too >>> may >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & >>> Skinner, >>>>>>>>>> 1997). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity processes >>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> start >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are *external* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the >>>>>>> importance >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or primordially >>>>>> to >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a gap >>>>>> in >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> highly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in >>> actual*ity. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, >>>>>>> unsure >>>>>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" >>>>>>>> questions >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be >>> working >>>>>>> on. >>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a moment >>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big >>>>>>> Bang. >>>>>>>>>> But >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start >>>>>> (the >>>>>>>> Big >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bang >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention the >>>>>>>> origins >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just >>>>>>>> thoughtfully >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper >>> leaves a >>>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>>>>>> big >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap >>> is >>>>>>>>>> largely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, >>>>>> 'identity' >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sustained." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good student, >>>>>>> though >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> excitement, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." >>> (193) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm >>>>>>> confident', >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted in >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> context >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, >>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> statements >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for >>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity >>>>>> characteristics >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, >>>>>> do >>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." >>>>>> (193) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by >>>>>>>> society", >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context >>> of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> figured >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to >>> go >>>>>>>>>> against >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's >>>>>>> views >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that >>> contradicts >>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> data: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the >>>>>>> theory >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also >>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I think >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> word >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and >>>>>> engagement >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter easily, >>>>>> do >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than >>>>>> others >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is >>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "I" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking >>>>>>> about, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation >>>>>> between >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the >>> activity >>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> hand >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world >>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a good >>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in >>>>>> both >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and >>> "you" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> relationship >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I >>>>>> can >>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly >>>>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number >>> and >>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> class >>>>>>>>>>>>>> over >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the >>>>>>> interpersonal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me like >>> a >>>>>>>>>> strange >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) somewhere >>>>>>>> between >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, >>> but I >>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can >>>>>> probably >>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to >>>>>>>> (Vygotsky) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language >>> at >>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) the >>>>>>>> moment >>>>>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying >>> clauses >>>>>>>> ("I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can >>>>>> pull >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> off") >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, >>>>>> which >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< >>>>>>> http://www.tandfonline >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful >>>>>> paper >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret >>>>>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Education >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the >>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie >>> together >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity >>> in >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after >>> US >>>>>>>>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 >>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also attach >>> it >>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PDF. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> From carrie.allen@sri.com Fri Dec 2 06:24:02 2016 From: carrie.allen@sri.com (carrie.allen@sri.com) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 14:24:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: <1480658264896.53311@iped.uio.no> References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> <33681DD3-4A40-411A-95D2-347322551F5F@gmail.com> <62C9002E-8C9E-437A-BA35-5D1A9E49D816@gmail.com> <1480658264896.53311@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <9CB1D2F6-42B3-4BA2-AE38-81BE59E64133@sri.com> Thanks, everyone. And yes, thanks, Helena, for this suggestion! -- CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. STEM Researcher SRI International Center for Technology in Learning (650) 859-5262 Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 Skype: carrie.allen_9 On 12/1/16, 9:50 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil" wrote: 1 star in netflix makes it even more attractive to me. Will try to watch it! Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Helena Worthen Sent: 02 December 2016 03:39 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started I can understand giving it 1. We might want it ask if it is art. It is not a documentary. yes, please take a look. Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com Berkeley, CA 94707 Blog about US and Viet Nam: helenaworthen.wordpress.com > On Dec 1, 2016, at 5:24 PM, mike cole wrote: > > PS-- the film has a rating of 1, the lowest I have ever seen. > > Hmmmmmmm, might it have to do with the pain of the message, or is it just > bad > acting? Gotta take a look. > mike > > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 5:23 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> "The measure of a man" is on Netflix, at least, Helena. I think its a >> great way to generate more discussion of neoliberalism and education that >> Margaret and Carrie's article has stirred up. I have been seeing it as the >> intensification/codification/digitalized/nanoized/ of patterns evident in >> the period dating from, say, the end of the Johnson administration. But >> quantity can convert into quality (so they say), so identifying those >> special qualities or configurations of them, would be very useful. >> >> Carrie --- Thanks for sending the suggestions for successful >> counter-examples in the form of locally implemented alternative models. It >> seems important to collect such examples in order to understand both how to >> put them together and how to sustain/diffuse them in the face of >> overwhelming pressure toward commodification >> of education. >> >> And as Alfredo wrote (but in my dialect :-)) ) , "it ain't over 'til its >> over." >> >> Helena's idea of watching a film embodying her understanding of >> neoliberalism >> seems like a way to get greater understanding of each other when >> discussing our polysemic interests. >> >> The Zuckerman article seems to speak directly into these concerns. >> >> So thanks for starting such an interesting discussion!! >> >> mike >> >> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Helena Worthen >> wrote: >> >>> Carrie, and others on xmcc: >>> >>> I?ve been watching the term ?neoliberal? float past in recent weeks. An >>> example of the ways that I?ve seen it being used is in Carrie?s most recent >>> message: >>> >>> ??. that disrupt the neoliberal model and normalized conceptions of math >>> and science, and that engage young people in the practices of the >>> disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and science in these >>> models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of the world, and >>> students in these models are positioned as those who utilize the resources >>> and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, questions, interests.? >>> >>> It sounds as if these frameworks - the math and science in these models - >>> are what is disrupting the neoliberal model. They enable students to make >>> sense of the world in a way that is an alternative to the neoliberal model. >>> >>> Discourse like this makes me want to suggest a film for shared viewing: >>> The Measure of a Man, directed by Stephane Brize, 2016. This film works >>> carefully and thoroughly through the whole experience of a middle-aged >>> white man who is trying to live in a country (France) that has given itself >>> away pretty entirely to neoliberalism. Each slow turn of the plot opens up >>> another dimension of how the neoliberal model is experienced by someone >>> who, under a different model, would have lived quite differently. >>> Amazingly, the film doesn?t leave out anything that I can think of. One of >>> its messages is how totalized the neoliberal model can be made in its >>> operation. There are of course sections that speak to education and >>> training. >>> >>> Has anyone else seen this film? >>> >>> Helena >>> >>> >>> Helena Worthen >>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>> Berkeley, CA 94707 >>> Blog about US and Viet Nam: helenaworthen.wordpress.com >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 1, 2016, at 1:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in regarding >>> other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and science. >>> First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying to >>> suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow ideas >>> about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There are >>> certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s work at >>> Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s work at >>> the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and >>> normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young people in >>> the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and >>> science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of >>> the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who utilize >>> the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, >>> questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced ways of >>> being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means by >>> which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not entirely sure >>> how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are >>> ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. >>>> STEM Researcher >>>> SRI International >>>> Center for Technology in Learning >>>> >>>> >>>> (650) 859-5262 >>>> Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 >>>> Skype: carrie.allen_9 >>>> >>>> On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of >>> lpscholar2@gmail.com" >> lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a >>> particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. >>>> This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes >>> approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our >>> inquiry. >>>> This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of learning. >>>> >>>> Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be >>> foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>> >>>> From: Edward Wall >>>> Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>> >>>> Larry >>>> >>>> There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I?m >>> not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics >>>> >>>> 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) >>>> 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a teacher >>> at one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). >>>> 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 >>>> 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the >>> Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the evidence >>> isn?t clear) >>>> >>>> Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is put >>> off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; >>> however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey >>> recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according to >>> some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this is a >>> bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling for >>> the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> >>>>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates >>> (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it possible we >>> are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or >>> historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation that were >>> not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or incarnate >>> deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. >>>>> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural imaginaries) >>> that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture well-being? >>>>> >>>>> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>> >>>>> From: Huw Lloyd >>>>> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems >>> inherent >>>>> in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues can be >>>>> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that can be >>>>> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for "good >>>>> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real >>> problem >>>>> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like Davydov's >>>>> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". >>> There >>>>> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important >>>>> implications. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Huw, >>>>>> >>>>>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, social) >>>>>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the >>> formation >>>>>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all educational >>>>>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather should >>> be >>>>>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, *pathological* >>> (or >>>>>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and >>>>>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some young >>>>>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was >>> Mike who >>>>>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question is, >>> will >>>>>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the double >>> bind >>>>>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only include >>> the >>>>>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a higher >>> order >>>>>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to grow >>>>>> rather than come to stall). >>>>>> >>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> du> >>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd >>>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>>> >>>>>> Alfredo, >>>>>> >>>>>> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is >>> another >>>>>> matter. >>>>>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, because >>> there >>>>>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is >>> educational -- >>>>>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an Illich >>>>>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it just >>>>>> takes a different course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Huw >>>>>> >>>>>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates to >>> this >>>>>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to >>>>>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, that >>>>>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between >>> two, >>>>>> not >>>>>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and >>>>>> Phillip's >>>>>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as all >>> we >>>>>> do. >>>>>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have >>> wonderfully >>>>>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in >>> maths, >>>>>> but >>>>>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever >>> that >>>>>> best >>>>>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and context >>> that >>>>>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives and >>>>>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it so >>> that >>>>>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, >>> according >>>>>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a >>> hollowed-out >>>>>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had >>> illusion >>>>>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities to >>>>>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but >>> also a >>>>>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown in >>>>>> people >>>>>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we >>> have a >>>>>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? Not >>> just >>>>>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> du> >>>>>>> on behalf of White, Phillip >>>>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these >>>>>> examples >>>>>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at where >>> she >>>>>> is >>>>>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a looking >>>>>> back >>>>>>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then >>> setting a >>>>>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, so >>>>>> yeah, >>>>>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of >>> present >>>>>>> activities to attain future goals. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely on >>>>>> their >>>>>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all >>> about >>>>>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people >>> like me >>>>>>> do. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in >>> this >>>>>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> du> >>>>>>> on behalf of David Kellogg >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty >>> mental >>>>>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles I >>> have >>>>>> a >>>>>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing >>> rather >>>>>> than >>>>>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is >>>>>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense of >>> some >>>>>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on tenses, >>> and >>>>>> the >>>>>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in and >>> out >>>>>> of >>>>>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the >>> way >>>>>> the >>>>>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see >>>>>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at what >>> the >>>>>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this >>> simply >>>>>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take simple >>>>>> present >>>>>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it >>> because >>>>>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the >>>>>> figured >>>>>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is youth? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very >>> much a >>>>>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" you >>>>>> often >>>>>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? >>>>>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to >>> find >>>>>> out >>>>>>> if anybody really cares. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: >>> both >>>>>> the >>>>>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of >>> statistical >>>>>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the morning >>>>>> after >>>>>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of those >>>>>> black >>>>>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but >>> couldn't be >>>>>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class voters" >>> who >>>>>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North >>> Carolina >>>>>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently >>> knowing how >>>>>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented as >>>>>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would be >>>>>> part >>>>>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that >>> use >>>>>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the >>> impossible >>>>>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times >>> without >>>>>> any >>>>>>> memory at all). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together you >>>>>> notice >>>>>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your >>>>>> question, >>>>>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend to >>>>>> change >>>>>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On the >>> one >>>>>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too >>> wholly >>>>>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of these >>>>>> moments >>>>>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in >>>>>> itself. >>>>>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and >>> objects >>>>>> in >>>>>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David, >>>>>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this topic, >>>>>> but >>>>>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection >>> between >>>>>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged?interactants >>>>>> view >>>>>>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is >>>>>> largely >>>>>>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians as >>>>>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be >>> interesting >>>>>> to >>>>>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each >>>>>> other >>>>>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of >>> connecting >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to >>>>>> clarify >>>>>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential elections, >>>>>> and >>>>>>>> what not. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and Halliday >>> on >>>>>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in >>> ?basic >>>>>>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has >>> said >>>>>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As >>> you?d >>>>>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what >>> he >>>>>>> calls >>>>>>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain >>> is >>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he analyzes >>>>>> tense >>>>>>>> and aspect. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar >>> has a >>>>>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage >>> based, >>>>>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I think >>>>>>> there >>>>>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m not >>>>>>> smart >>>>>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection >>> must >>>>>> be >>>>>>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? ethnographers >>>>>> are >>>>>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is >>> raising >>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> issue. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with the >>>>>>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that >>> the >>>>>>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may say >>>>>> that >>>>>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school >>> was >>>>>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I got >>> to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin >>> under >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in Chapter >>> 8 >>>>>> of >>>>>>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I?ll end it there. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Henry: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and >>>>>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the >>>>>>>> different >>>>>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker somehow >>>>>>> sees >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space within >>>>>>>> space). >>>>>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and >>>>>>>> happenings. >>>>>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's >>>>>>>> temporally >>>>>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that >>>>>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either >>>>>> proleptically >>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article >>> we >>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three >>>>>> weeks >>>>>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has >>> been >>>>>>>> (past) >>>>>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me >>>>>> that >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That is, >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more >>> and >>>>>>>> less >>>>>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example >>> in >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the >>>>>> task >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, the >>>>>>>> scope, >>>>>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science identities >>>>>> and >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this >>>>>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed out >>> a >>>>>>>> little >>>>>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the >>> damn >>>>>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing the >>>>>>>> other: >>>>>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some task >>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space >>>>>> and >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way >>> you >>>>>>> dig >>>>>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the >>>>>>>> article: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans", >>>>>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP classes) >>>>>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or what >>>>>>>> Eckhart >>>>>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', >>>>>>> 'gangbangers') >>>>>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and >>> what >>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> think about themselves) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are >>>>>>>> probably >>>>>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really >>> do >>>>>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). >>> Different >>>>>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of the >>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers and >>>>>>>> groups >>>>>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's >>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the >>>>>> data >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against what >>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of >>>>>>>>> intervention is. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured by >>>>>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that >>> just >>>>>> an >>>>>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words (although >>>>>>> maybe >>>>>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds >>> for >>>>>>>> hope? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own >>>>>>>> *history*, >>>>>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* >>> it >>>>>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances >>> existing >>>>>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of >>> all >>>>>>> dead >>>>>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a >>>>>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I >>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera John-Steiner >>>>>> and >>>>>>>> her >>>>>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating Mathematics: >>>>>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers to >>>>>>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within >>> these >>>>>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and >>>>>> Reuben?s >>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real (working) >>>>>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we call >>>>>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching >>> of >>>>>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and could >>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> relevant to this discussion. >>>>>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd >>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Dear Margaret >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave it >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous term >>>>>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments >>> about >>>>>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place of >>>>>>>>>> identity. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of >>>>>> "model >>>>>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM subjects >>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with >>>>>> identifying >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to >>> find >>>>>>>> out" >>>>>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is >>>>>>>>>> foregrounded >>>>>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background >>>>>> social >>>>>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at >>> the >>>>>>>> role >>>>>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about >>>>>>>> unknowns. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set >>> of >>>>>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such >>> that >>>>>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable within >>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with >>> the >>>>>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < >>>>>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for >>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed >>> Out.? >>>>>>> We >>>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream >>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> thinking here! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas >>> about >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we would >>>>>> like >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students >>>>>> were >>>>>>>>>> making >>>>>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them >>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured >>>>>>> worlds >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us >>>>>> reflected >>>>>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty >>>>>> serious >>>>>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what >>>>>> theories >>>>>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of >>>>>> ?exemplars? >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>> might turn to. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < >>>>>> lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably >>> sens >>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning >>> and >>>>>>>>>> sense) >>>>>>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of (hollowed-out) >>>>>>>> meaning >>>>>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for >>>>>>>> developing a >>>>>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of >>>>>> social >>>>>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about improving >>>>>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of >>> the >>>>>>>> study >>>>>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary >>>>>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, >>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section >>> (identity-in-context) >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured >>> worlds). >>>>>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of history-in-person. >>>>>>> That >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of >>> person >>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. >>>>>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries >>> (figured >>>>>>>>>> worlds) >>>>>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local practices >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially >>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are >>>>>>>>>> recognized >>>>>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological >>>>>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* >>> to >>>>>>>>>> *what* >>>>>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we >>>>>> take. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn >>>>>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper >>> ethical >>>>>>>> turn >>>>>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as >>> well >>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as >>>>>>> beacons >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the >>>>>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from >>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>> Re-started >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might send >>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>> here: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web >>>>>> site >>>>>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to >>> implement. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < >>>>>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and >>>>>>> Science >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret >>>>>>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so during >>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I >>> shared >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> link >>>>>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion >>> to a >>>>>>>> halt >>>>>>>>>>>>>> until >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret >>> and >>>>>>>> Carrie >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, >>> but I >>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves >>> as >>>>>>> soon >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a discussion >>>>>> of >>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An >>>>>> American >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark >>> day >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some >>>>>> grounds >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home >>>>>> now, >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of >>>>>> mind" >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> organisation of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to >>>>>> Trump's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of >>> everyday >>>>>>>> life. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on >>>>>> women's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> scholar >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I >>>>>> hope >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of >>> those >>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins >>> us >>>>>>> next >>>>>>>>>>>>>> week! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance at >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade >>>>>> into >>>>>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have >>> until >>>>>>> next >>>>>>>>>>>>>> week >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to think about it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to >>>>>> catch >>>>>>>> up! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that >>> the >>>>>>> data >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> processes >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the >>>>>>>>>> externally >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study >>> using >>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your >>>>>>> position. >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if you >>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point >>> (in >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, >>> but I >>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it >>> could >>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the adult >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? that >>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrative >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather >>>>>> could >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in >>>>>> particular >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american >>>>>> education >>>>>>>>>>>>>> began? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen >>>>>> study, >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning >>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes >>>>>> *direction* >>>>>>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of >>> depends >>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you >>> and >>>>>>> me) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> way of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical >>>>>> ways >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the >>>>>>> *historical-in-person*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the description >>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing >>>>>>> circumstances* >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article says: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other >>>>>>> Sociocultural >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that >>>>>> is, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> learning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a >>>>>>> particular >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not stable or >>>>>>> fixed. >>>>>>>>>> As >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too >>> may >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & >>> Skinner, >>>>>>>>>> 1997). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity processes >>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> start >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are *external* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the >>>>>>> importance >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or primordially >>>>>> to >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a gap >>>>>> in >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> highly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in >>> actual*ity. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, >>>>>>> unsure >>>>>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" >>>>>>>> questions >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be >>> working >>>>>>> on. >>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a moment >>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big >>>>>>> Bang. >>>>>>>>>> But >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start >>>>>> (the >>>>>>>> Big >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bang >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention the >>>>>>>> origins >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just >>>>>>>> thoughtfully >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper >>> leaves a >>>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>>>>>> big >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap >>> is >>>>>>>>>> largely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, >>>>>> 'identity' >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sustained." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good student, >>>>>>> though >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> excitement, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." >>> (193) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm >>>>>>> confident', >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted in >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> context >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, >>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> statements >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for >>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity >>>>>> characteristics >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, >>>>>> do >>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." >>>>>> (193) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by >>>>>>>> society", >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context >>> of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> figured >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to >>> go >>>>>>>>>> against >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's >>>>>>> views >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that >>> contradicts >>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> data: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the >>>>>>> theory >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also >>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I think >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> word >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and >>>>>> engagement >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter easily, >>>>>> do >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than >>>>>> others >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is >>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "I" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking >>>>>>> about, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation >>>>>> between >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the >>> activity >>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> hand >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world >>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a good >>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in >>>>>> both >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and >>> "you" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> relationship >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I >>>>>> can >>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly >>>>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number >>> and >>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> class >>>>>>>>>>>>>> over >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the >>>>>>> interpersonal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me like >>> a >>>>>>>>>> strange >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) somewhere >>>>>>>> between >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, >>> but I >>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can >>>>>> probably >>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to >>>>>>>> (Vygotsky) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language >>> at >>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) the >>>>>>>> moment >>>>>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying >>> clauses >>>>>>>> ("I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can >>>>>> pull >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> off") >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, >>>>>> which >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< >>>>>>> http://www.tandfonline >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful >>>>>> paper >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret >>>>>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Education >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the >>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie >>> together >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity >>> in >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after >>> US >>>>>>>>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 >>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also attach >>> it >>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PDF. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Dec 2 07:26:37 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 07:26:37 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no> References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com>, <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no>, <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com> Alfredo, The resonance of your answer is harmonic with my question and feels so gestating and co-generative. Learning collaboration as joint action leading [orienting receptively] to freedom in the opening of future joint action [all the way down]. Mastering one?s *relations* TO OTHERS is achieved [an ability Zukerman would say] by becoming subject AND SUBJECTING TO those relations. At the heart of our inquiries is *relations* in their polyphonic manifestations. What has just occurred here and now as an example [an exemplar?] of being carried along by the *subject matter* developing what *we* mean. Con/vivial - con/verse/ation - all the way down. MITSEIN as well-being-in-the-world- WITH- others [abbreviated or shortened to *well-being* An original and very appealing view/image on WHAT independence, or BECOMING an independent learner - means I feel heard and inspired and grateful in this spirit [value?] of friendship and fellowship unfolding in the back and forth across perspectives Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 9:40 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry,? how accepted one view on Vygotsky is, is something many others in this list know better than me. When I began reading Vygotsky, many here had already bee studying his original works for 30 years...? I know, however, that it is easy to simplify matters one way or another. It is quite common, for example, to find published papers where Vygotskian concepts are used in ways that effectively reify cognitivist views that cognitive science itself has been trying to get rid off for long time now.? Perhaps the question is not so much about how accepted a version of a legacy is, and perhaps less so how accurate that version is with the original intention, but how generative this version is for whatever we find useful pursuing. A view where joint action leads to?freedom in the generation of?future joint action?(the turtles all the way down), and not independently of it,?seems to me more promising than other versions. Although many things in this article are surely debatable, it certainly offers an original and appealing view on what independence, or becoming and independent learner?means. Vygotskian historians have noted that Vygotsky?often referred to Bacon's aphorism "natura?parendo vincitur"... In G.Zuckerman's article,?mastering one's relation to others is achieved by becoming?subject and?subjecting to those relations. Alfredo? From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 02 December 2016 04:37 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" ? Alfredo, How accepted is this perspective of the Vygotskian legacy as being (intermental) through and through? The metaphor (turtles all the way down) comes to mind? ? This perspective opens up the ideal or the possible of learning collaboration as involving a spectrum or a layering of developmental periods that emphasize a (merging quality) but emphasizes that all the periods continue to be alive and animated. This includes the original receptivity marking the infants gestures, and imitation, and play/imaginal and learning activity as all active ?ingredients creating the personality. To later become reflective and acquire some degree of volition over these earlier ?more primordial deeper layers/spectrum of merged abilities as secondary phenomena of? learning collaboration seems to occur as a derivative experience (after the experience of merger). Opens up the question of central lines for further inquiry in the back and forth. ? This term (intermental) seems to be a key notion for opening locked doors ? Sent from my Windows 10 phone ? From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 4:19 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" ? Larry, this way of articulating a Vygotskian approach to?learning as?NOT?something that?simply?first is external?and?that then becomes internal, is one of the things that most attracted me from this paper. The competences and cognitive functions that Galina describes are intermental through and through,?even when?she talks of a "happy end" where the competence to initiate collaboration?is interiorized?.?This resonates quite well with?an argument that Michael R.?and myself have been advancing recently referring to the inter-intrasubjectivity?(see e.g., MCA perezhivanie issue), although critical readers will note that?we advance the argument?in a way much more metaphorical than Galina's reported experiments?(and being metaphorical?is a?fair critique, though being so may ?also be a good way to move forward to new concrete research programs).? ? Another thing I like is that the article?raises a question of distinguishing (or not) between relations of learner and a skilled person (may we say, an apprenticeship?) on the one hand, and between learner and *teacher* on the other. An advantage of this approach is that it allows tracing those genetic lines of development that are specific to teaching (teaching/learning) situations of the kind western schools and middle class parents sometimes exercise exhibiting and generating expectations of learning to think and solve problems independently. ? Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 01 December 2016 21:21 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" ? Alfredo, Since you opened a new thread for the Zukerman article -in particular ? I will highlight ?a central question from page 17 that is organizing the article for the reader?s ability to respond. ? The last paragraph on page 17 opens with: ? Just what is learning collaboration? ? The answer given: ? It can be (understood) in two ways. It can be seen as a sort of scaffolding temporarily needed for mental development ? until children aquire the ability to apply scientific concepts INDEPENDENTLY, to frame and solve problems demanding theoretical thinking without the help of a teacher. However, learning collaboration can also be (interpreted) not as an ancillary developmental tool, not as an EXTERNAL removable support created in the course of building the mental ediface, but as an important part of this ediface, as? A VALUABLE ABILITY ESSENTIAL TO HUMANS AT ANY POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE. ? It is this 2nd version of (learning collaboration) as a valuable (intermental ability) that continues and is universal, that this paper is highlighting for our further inquiry into ? Just what is learning collaboration? As an aspect of answering, Just what is education? A four way back and forth co-generation of genetic phenomenology ? Sent from my Windows 10 phone ? From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: December 1, 2016 8:09 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" ? Alfredo, A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to learn (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active force in learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. ? Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the concepts (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky school: 1)????? As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out with the help of an adult, it is NOT independent 2)????? People can independently bring about? collaborative (intermental action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. ? A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist within the Vygotsky school. To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. As Zackerman says: Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the adult disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. ? This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and purpose. The key question shifts to become: What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY structure (intermental) action. ? I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School exploration of developmental paths. Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration of others. Note that both alternatives ?are offering the key to answering -what is education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into this open question ? ? ? Sent from my Windows 10 phone ? From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an educationbe?" ? Alfredo, ? WHAT is education. This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing stream. ? On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of (intermental) collaboration. Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of intermental collaboration. Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to *endure*. What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving adult as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a thing of inherent value. ? THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school age). So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. ? This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next period emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and *enduring* form of collaboration. ? Sent from my Windows 10 phone ? From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education be?" ? Hi all, ? ? I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue 3 lead article. ? ? ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal reading of 3 articles:? Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's reading of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. ? ? A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, has to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most importantly, ?the question is also about what education could instead be as possibility, as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are necessary: we need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as much as we need a notion of what a good education could be. ? ? Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading for the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I think we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article (recently mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition brings in is, in my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for connecting the two questions posed above, the one on the facts of education and the one on possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter question on possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability to learn is. She writes: ? ? "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what abilities children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular developmental potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm in childhood development" ? Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and the desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are *educability* and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies in the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. ? ? I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for many reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on age that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses the connection between communication and generalization, a connection that became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and generalization, in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the "internalisation" way of languaging it). ? ? The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. ? Alfredo ? ? ? ? ? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DB450E0D09E34D118BA1B7DFA208408C.png Type: image/png Size: 161 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161202/5322816f/attachment.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: F8EAF4AE8FEC4E74B2E470B2327578B5.png Type: image/png Size: 212 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161202/5322816f/attachment-0001.png From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Dec 2 10:05:16 2016 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 11:05:16 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: <1480658264896.53311@iped.uio.no> References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> <33681DD3-4A40-411A-95D2-347322551F5F@gmail.com> <62C9002E-8C9E-437A-BA35-5D1A9E49D816@gmail.com> <1480658264896.53311@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <6BC9CC70-7604-4AF0-8216-84DBFA1EC143@gmail.com> I just looked at Netflix. I read 3.5 stars out of five. I wonder if the stars are ?personalized?, based on one?s viewing history? Henry > On Dec 1, 2016, at 10:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > 1 star in netflix makes it even more attractive to me. Will try to watch it! > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Helena Worthen > Sent: 02 December 2016 03:39 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > > I can understand giving it 1. We might want it ask if it is art. It is not a documentary. > yes, please take a look. > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > Berkeley, CA 94707 > Blog about US and Viet Nam: helenaworthen.wordpress.com > > > >> On Dec 1, 2016, at 5:24 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> PS-- the film has a rating of 1, the lowest I have ever seen. >> >> Hmmmmmmm, might it have to do with the pain of the message, or is it just >> bad >> acting? Gotta take a look. >> mike >> >> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 5:23 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> "The measure of a man" is on Netflix, at least, Helena. I think its a >>> great way to generate more discussion of neoliberalism and education that >>> Margaret and Carrie's article has stirred up. I have been seeing it as the >>> intensification/codification/digitalized/nanoized/ of patterns evident in >>> the period dating from, say, the end of the Johnson administration. But >>> quantity can convert into quality (so they say), so identifying those >>> special qualities or configurations of them, would be very useful. >>> >>> Carrie --- Thanks for sending the suggestions for successful >>> counter-examples in the form of locally implemented alternative models. It >>> seems important to collect such examples in order to understand both how to >>> put them together and how to sustain/diffuse them in the face of >>> overwhelming pressure toward commodification >>> of education. >>> >>> And as Alfredo wrote (but in my dialect :-)) ) , "it ain't over 'til its >>> over." >>> >>> Helena's idea of watching a film embodying her understanding of >>> neoliberalism >>> seems like a way to get greater understanding of each other when >>> discussing our polysemic interests. >>> >>> The Zuckerman article seems to speak directly into these concerns. >>> >>> So thanks for starting such an interesting discussion!! >>> >>> mike >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Helena Worthen >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Carrie, and others on xmcc: >>>> >>>> I?ve been watching the term ?neoliberal? float past in recent weeks. An >>>> example of the ways that I?ve seen it being used is in Carrie?s most recent >>>> message: >>>> >>>> ??. that disrupt the neoliberal model and normalized conceptions of math >>>> and science, and that engage young people in the practices of the >>>> disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and science in these >>>> models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of the world, and >>>> students in these models are positioned as those who utilize the resources >>>> and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, questions, interests.? >>>> >>>> It sounds as if these frameworks - the math and science in these models - >>>> are what is disrupting the neoliberal model. They enable students to make >>>> sense of the world in a way that is an alternative to the neoliberal model. >>>> >>>> Discourse like this makes me want to suggest a film for shared viewing: >>>> The Measure of a Man, directed by Stephane Brize, 2016. This film works >>>> carefully and thoroughly through the whole experience of a middle-aged >>>> white man who is trying to live in a country (France) that has given itself >>>> away pretty entirely to neoliberalism. Each slow turn of the plot opens up >>>> another dimension of how the neoliberal model is experienced by someone >>>> who, under a different model, would have lived quite differently. >>>> Amazingly, the film doesn?t leave out anything that I can think of. One of >>>> its messages is how totalized the neoliberal model can be made in its >>>> operation. There are of course sections that speak to education and >>>> training. >>>> >>>> Has anyone else seen this film? >>>> >>>> Helena >>>> >>>> >>>> Helena Worthen >>>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>>> Berkeley, CA 94707 >>>> Blog about US and Viet Nam: helenaworthen.wordpress.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 1, 2016, at 1:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in regarding >>>> other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and science. >>>> First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying to >>>> suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow ideas >>>> about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There are >>>> certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s work at >>>> Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s work at >>>> the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and >>>> normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young people in >>>> the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and >>>> science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of >>>> the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who utilize >>>> the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, >>>> questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced ways of >>>> being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means by >>>> which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not entirely sure >>>> how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are >>>> ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. >>>>> STEM Researcher >>>>> SRI International >>>>> Center for Technology in Learning >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> (650) 859-5262 >>>>> Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 >>>>> Skype: carrie.allen_9 >>>>> >>>>> On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of >>>> lpscholar2@gmail.com" >>> lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a >>>> particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. >>>>> This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes >>>> approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our >>>> inquiry. >>>>> This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of learning. >>>>> >>>>> Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be >>>> foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>> >>>>> From: Edward Wall >>>>> Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>> >>>>> Larry >>>>> >>>>> There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I?m >>>> not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics >>>>> >>>>> 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) >>>>> 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a teacher >>>> at one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). >>>>> 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 >>>>> 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the >>>> Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the evidence >>>> isn?t clear) >>>>> >>>>> Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is put >>>> off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; >>>> however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey >>>> recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according to >>>> some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this is a >>>> bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling for >>>> the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). >>>>> >>>>> Ed >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates >>>> (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it possible we >>>> are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or >>>> historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation that were >>>> not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or incarnate >>>> deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. >>>>>> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural imaginaries) >>>> that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture well-being? >>>>>> >>>>>> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Huw Lloyd >>>>>> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>>> >>>>>> Alfredo, >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems >>>> inherent >>>>>> in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues can be >>>>>> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that can be >>>>>> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for "good >>>>>> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real >>>> problem >>>>>> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like Davydov's >>>>>> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". >>>> There >>>>>> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important >>>>>> implications. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Huw >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Huw, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, social) >>>>>>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the >>>> formation >>>>>>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all educational >>>>>>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather should >>>> be >>>>>>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, *pathological* >>>> (or >>>>>>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and >>>>>>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some young >>>>>>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was >>>> Mike who >>>>>>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question is, >>>> will >>>>>>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the double >>>> bind >>>>>>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only include >>>> the >>>>>>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a higher >>>> order >>>>>>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to grow >>>>>>> rather than come to stall). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> du> >>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd >>>>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alfredo, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is >>>> another >>>>>>> matter. >>>>>>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, because >>>> there >>>>>>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is >>>> educational -- >>>>>>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an Illich >>>>>>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it just >>>>>>> takes a different course. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates to >>>> this >>>>>>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to >>>>>>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, that >>>>>>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between >>>> two, >>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and >>>>>>> Phillip's >>>>>>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as all >>>> we >>>>>>> do. >>>>>>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have >>>> wonderfully >>>>>>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in >>>> maths, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever >>>> that >>>>>>> best >>>>>>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and context >>>> that >>>>>>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives and >>>>>>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it so >>>> that >>>>>>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, >>>> according >>>>>>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a >>>> hollowed-out >>>>>>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had >>>> illusion >>>>>>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities to >>>>>>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but >>>> also a >>>>>>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown in >>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we >>>> have a >>>>>>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? Not >>>> just >>>>>>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> du> >>>>>>>> on behalf of White, Phillip >>>>>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 >>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these >>>>>>> examples >>>>>>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at where >>>> she >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a looking >>>>>>> back >>>>>>>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then >>>> setting a >>>>>>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, so >>>>>>> yeah, >>>>>>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of >>>> present >>>>>>>> activities to attain future goals. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely on >>>>>>> their >>>>>>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all >>>> about >>>>>>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people >>>> like me >>>>>>>> do. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in >>>> this >>>>>>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> du> >>>>>>>> on behalf of David Kellogg >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM >>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty >>>> mental >>>>>>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles I >>>> have >>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing >>>> rather >>>>>>> than >>>>>>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is >>>>>>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense of >>>> some >>>>>>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on tenses, >>>> and >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in and >>>> out >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the >>>> way >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see >>>>>>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at what >>>> the >>>>>>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this >>>> simply >>>>>>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take simple >>>>>>> present >>>>>>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it >>>> because >>>>>>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the >>>>>>> figured >>>>>>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is youth? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very >>>> much a >>>>>>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" you >>>>>>> often >>>>>>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? >>>>>>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to >>>> find >>>>>>> out >>>>>>>> if anybody really cares. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: >>>> both >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of >>>> statistical >>>>>>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the morning >>>>>>> after >>>>>>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of those >>>>>>> black >>>>>>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but >>>> couldn't be >>>>>>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class voters" >>>> who >>>>>>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North >>>> Carolina >>>>>>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently >>>> knowing how >>>>>>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented as >>>>>>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would be >>>>>>> part >>>>>>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that >>>> use >>>>>>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the >>>> impossible >>>>>>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times >>>> without >>>>>>> any >>>>>>>> memory at all). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together you >>>>>>> notice >>>>>>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your >>>>>>> question, >>>>>>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend to >>>>>>> change >>>>>>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On the >>>> one >>>>>>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too >>>> wholly >>>>>>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of these >>>>>>> moments >>>>>>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in >>>>>>> itself. >>>>>>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and >>>> objects >>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> David, >>>>>>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this topic, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection >>>> between >>>>>>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged?interactants >>>>>>> view >>>>>>>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is >>>>>>> largely >>>>>>>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians as >>>>>>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be >>>> interesting >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each >>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of >>>> connecting >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to >>>>>>> clarify >>>>>>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential elections, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> what not. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and Halliday >>>> on >>>>>>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in >>>> ?basic >>>>>>>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has >>>> said >>>>>>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As >>>> you?d >>>>>>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what >>>> he >>>>>>>> calls >>>>>>>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain >>>> is >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he analyzes >>>>>>> tense >>>>>>>>> and aspect. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar >>>> has a >>>>>>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage >>>> based, >>>>>>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I think >>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m not >>>>>>>> smart >>>>>>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection >>>> must >>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? ethnographers >>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is >>>> raising >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> issue. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with the >>>>>>>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that >>>> the >>>>>>>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may say >>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school >>>> was >>>>>>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I got >>>> to >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin >>>> under >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in Chapter >>>> 8 >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I?ll end it there. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Henry: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and >>>>>>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the >>>>>>>>> different >>>>>>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker somehow >>>>>>>> sees >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space within >>>>>>>>> space). >>>>>>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and >>>>>>>>> happenings. >>>>>>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's >>>>>>>>> temporally >>>>>>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that >>>>>>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either >>>>>>> proleptically >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article >>>> we >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three >>>>>>> weeks >>>>>>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has >>>> been >>>>>>>>> (past) >>>>>>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me >>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That is, >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more >>>> and >>>>>>>>> less >>>>>>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example >>>> in >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the >>>>>>> task >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, the >>>>>>>>> scope, >>>>>>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science identities >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this >>>>>>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed out >>>> a >>>>>>>>> little >>>>>>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the >>>> damn >>>>>>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing the >>>>>>>>> other: >>>>>>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some task >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way >>>> you >>>>>>>> dig >>>>>>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the >>>>>>>>> article: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans", >>>>>>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP classes) >>>>>>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or what >>>>>>>>> Eckhart >>>>>>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', >>>>>>>> 'gangbangers') >>>>>>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and >>>> what >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> think about themselves) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are >>>>>>>>> probably >>>>>>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really >>>> do >>>>>>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). >>>> Different >>>>>>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of the >>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers and >>>>>>>>> groups >>>>>>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's >>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the >>>>>>> data >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against what >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of >>>>>>>>>> intervention is. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured by >>>>>>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that >>>> just >>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words (although >>>>>>>> maybe >>>>>>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds >>>> for >>>>>>>>> hope? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own >>>>>>>>> *history*, >>>>>>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* >>>> it >>>>>>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances >>>> existing >>>>>>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of >>>> all >>>>>>>> dead >>>>>>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a >>>>>>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I >>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera John-Steiner >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> her >>>>>>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating Mathematics: >>>>>>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers to >>>>>>>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within >>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and >>>>>>> Reuben?s >>>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real (working) >>>>>>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we call >>>>>>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching >>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and could >>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> relevant to this discussion. >>>>>>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd >>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Margaret >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave it >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous term >>>>>>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments >>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place of >>>>>>>>>>> identity. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of >>>>>>> "model >>>>>>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM subjects >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with >>>>>>> identifying >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to >>>> find >>>>>>>>> out" >>>>>>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is >>>>>>>>>>> foregrounded >>>>>>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background >>>>>>> social >>>>>>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at >>>> the >>>>>>>>> role >>>>>>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about >>>>>>>>> unknowns. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set >>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such >>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable within >>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < >>>>>>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed >>>> Out.? >>>>>>>> We >>>>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream >>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking here! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas >>>> about >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we would >>>>>>> like >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students >>>>>>> were >>>>>>>>>>> making >>>>>>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them >>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured >>>>>>>> worlds >>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us >>>>>>> reflected >>>>>>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty >>>>>>> serious >>>>>>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what >>>>>>> theories >>>>>>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of >>>>>>> ?exemplars? >>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>> might turn to. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < >>>>>>> lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably >>>> sens >>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning >>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> sense) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of (hollowed-out) >>>>>>>>> meaning >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for >>>>>>>>> developing a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of >>>>>>> social >>>>>>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about improving >>>>>>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of >>>> the >>>>>>>>> study >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary >>>>>>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, >>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section >>>> (identity-in-context) >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured >>>> worlds). >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of history-in-person. >>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of >>>> person >>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries >>>> (figured >>>>>>>>>>> worlds) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local practices >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially >>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are >>>>>>>>>>> recognized >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* >>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> *what* >>>>>>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we >>>>>>> take. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper >>>> ethical >>>>>>>>> turn >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as >>>> well >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as >>>>>>>> beacons >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the >>>>>>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from >>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>> Re-started >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might send >>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>>> here: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web >>>>>>> site >>>>>>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to >>>> implement. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < >>>>>>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and >>>>>>>> Science >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret >>>>>>>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so during >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I >>>> shared >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> link >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion >>>> to a >>>>>>>>> halt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret >>>> and >>>>>>>>> Carrie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, >>>> but I >>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves >>>> as >>>>>>>> soon >>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a discussion >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An >>>>>>> American >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark >>>> day >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some >>>>>>> grounds >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home >>>>>>> now, >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of >>>>>>> mind" >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> organisation of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to >>>>>>> Trump's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of >>>> everyday >>>>>>>>> life. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on >>>>>>> women's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scholar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I >>>>>>> hope >>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of >>>> those >>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins >>>> us >>>>>>>> next >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> week! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance at >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade >>>>>>> into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have >>>> until >>>>>>>> next >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> week >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to think about it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to >>>>>>> catch >>>>>>>>> up! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that >>>> the >>>>>>>> data >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> processes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the >>>>>>>>>>> externally >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study >>>> using >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your >>>>>>>> position. >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if you >>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point >>>> (in >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, >>>> but I >>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it >>>> could >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the adult >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? that >>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrative >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather >>>>>>> could >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in >>>>>>> particular >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american >>>>>>> education >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> began? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen >>>>>>> study, >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning >>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes >>>>>>> *direction* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of >>>> depends >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you >>>> and >>>>>>>> me) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical >>>>>>> ways >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the >>>>>>>> *historical-in-person*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the description >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing >>>>>>>> circumstances* >>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article says: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other >>>>>>>> Sociocultural >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that >>>>>>> is, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> learning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a >>>>>>>> particular >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not stable or >>>>>>>> fixed. >>>>>>>>>>> As >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too >>>> may >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & >>>> Skinner, >>>>>>>>>>> 1997). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity processes >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> start >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are *external* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the >>>>>>>> importance >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or primordially >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a gap >>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> highly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in >>>> actual*ity. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, >>>>>>>> unsure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" >>>>>>>>> questions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be >>>> working >>>>>>>> on. >>>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a moment >>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big >>>>>>>> Bang. >>>>>>>>>>> But >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start >>>>>>> (the >>>>>>>>> Big >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bang >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention the >>>>>>>>> origins >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just >>>>>>>>> thoughtfully >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper >>>> leaves a >>>>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> big >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap >>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> largely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, >>>>>>> 'identity' >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sustained." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good student, >>>>>>>> though >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> excitement, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." >>>> (193) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm >>>>>>>> confident', >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted in >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> context >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, >>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statements >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for >>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity >>>>>>> characteristics >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, >>>>>>> do >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." >>>>>>> (193) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by >>>>>>>>> society", >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context >>>> of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figured >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to >>>> go >>>>>>>>>>> against >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's >>>>>>>> views >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that >>>> contradicts >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> data: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the >>>>>>>> theory >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also >>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I think >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> word >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and >>>>>>> engagement >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter easily, >>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than >>>>>>> others >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is >>>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "I" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking >>>>>>>> about, >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation >>>>>>> between >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the >>>> activity >>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>> hand >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world >>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a good >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in >>>>>>> both >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and >>>> "you" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relationship >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number >>>> and >>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> class >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the >>>>>>>> interpersonal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me like >>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> strange >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) somewhere >>>>>>>>> between >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, >>>> but I >>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can >>>>>>> probably >>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to >>>>>>>>> (Vygotsky) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language >>>> at >>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) the >>>>>>>>> moment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying >>>> clauses >>>>>>>>> ("I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can >>>>>>> pull >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off") >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, >>>>>>> which >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< >>>>>>>> http://www.tandfonline >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful >>>>>>> paper >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret >>>>>>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Education >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the >>>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie >>>> together >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity >>>> in >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after >>>> US >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 >>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also attach >>>> it >>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PDF. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > > > From smago@uga.edu Fri Dec 2 12:51:18 2016 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 20:51:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] pavlovian humor Message-ID: I?m working in Mexico this week, and heard a talk this morning by Rodrigo Ramos- Z??iga, a neuroscientist of some repute in these parts. During his talk he showed a slide of Pavlov in the lab, recording notes while a dog responded to a stimulus. Rodrigo observed that Pavlov thought that by ringing a bell, he was producing a reaction in the dog; but the dog thought that by salivating, he was causing the old man to start writing things in his notebook. Dr. med. Rodrigo Ramos-Z??iga. Depto. Neurociencias. Instituto de Investigaci?n en Neurociencias Traslacionales. Universidad de Guadalajara. Rodrigo Ramos-Z??iga M.D. Ph.D. Chairman Dept. Neurosciences. University of Guadalajara. M?xico. From smago@uga.edu Fri Dec 2 12:59:22 2016 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 20:59:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] more from Mexico Message-ID: There's a rumor circulating that now that the Americans have elected Trump to build the wall, the Mexicans are going to elect El Chapo to dig the tunnel. From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Fri Dec 2 15:00:07 2016 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 23:00:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com> References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com>, <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no>, <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no>, <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: everyone - having read Zukerman's paper on how young school children learn to learn, it seems to me that the teaching strategies she promotes will not come close to alleviating the problem of neoliberalism and the hollowing out of students. as stated on page 2, "... schoolchildren must to able to compute, read, write, and, by the way, learn. This occurred in the late 1970's in the face of one in a series of technological revolutions confronting manufacturers with a new need for lifelong training." so there is the core proleptic goal of neoliberal education - students are to be educated to meet the needs of business. in my own experience of teaching - from kindergarten to graduate school - the child who is described as an independent learner is actually a compliant child. and certainly in Zukerman's examples, these children are also learning to be compliant - they are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate for the classroom. in point of fact, the last elementary school i was in for fifteen years - 2001 - 2016 - the type of teaching and questioning strategies promoted by Zukerman were practiced in every classroom. and teachers were explicitly evaluated on how close them came to a rather common mantra: Never do for a child that she can do herself. and, yes, all answers elicited through open questions were written so that all could see, and then analysed and evaluated by the students. as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning and social practices, at core there is always an ideology. here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to authority. phillip ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 8:26 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, The resonance of your answer is harmonic with my question and feels so gestating and co-generative. Learning collaboration as joint action leading [orienting receptively] to freedom in the opening of future joint action [all the way down]. Mastering one?s *relations* TO OTHERS is achieved [an ability Zukerman would say] by becoming subject AND SUBJECTING TO those relations. At the heart of our inquiries is *relations* in their polyphonic manifestations. What has just occurred here and now as an example [an exemplar?] of being carried along by the *subject matter* developing what *we* mean. Con/vivial - con/verse/ation - all the way down. MITSEIN as well-being-in-the-world- WITH- others [abbreviated or shortened to *well-being* An original and very appealing view/image on WHAT independence, or BECOMING an independent learner - means I feel heard and inspired and grateful in this spirit [value?] of friendship and fellowship unfolding in the back and forth across perspectives Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 9:40 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, how accepted one view on Vygotsky is, is something many others in this list know better than me. When I began reading Vygotsky, many here had already bee studying his original works for 30 years... I know, however, that it is easy to simplify matters one way or another. It is quite common, for example, to find published papers where Vygotskian concepts are used in ways that effectively reify cognitivist views that cognitive science itself has been trying to get rid off for long time now. Perhaps the question is not so much about how accepted a version of a legacy is, and perhaps less so how accurate that version is with the original intention, but how generative this version is for whatever we find useful pursuing. A view where joint action leads to freedom in the generation of future joint action (the turtles all the way down), and not independently of it, seems to me more promising than other versions. Although many things in this article are surely debatable, it certainly offers an original and appealing view on what independence, or becoming and independent learner means. Vygotskian historians have noted that Vygotsky often referred to Bacon's aphorism "natura parendo vincitur"... In G.Zuckerman's article, mastering one's relation to others is achieved by becoming subject and subjecting to those relations. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 02 December 2016 04:37 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, How accepted is this perspective of the Vygotskian legacy as being (intermental) through and through? The metaphor (turtles all the way down) comes to mind? This perspective opens up the ideal or the possible of learning collaboration as involving a spectrum or a layering of developmental periods that emphasize a (merging quality) but emphasizes that all the periods continue to be alive and animated. This includes the original receptivity marking the infants gestures, and imitation, and play/imaginal and learning activity as all active ingredients creating the personality. To later become reflective and acquire some degree of volition over these earlier more primordial deeper layers/spectrum of merged abilities as secondary phenomena of learning collaboration seems to occur as a derivative experience (after the experience of merger). Opens up the question of central lines for further inquiry in the back and forth. This term (intermental) seems to be a key notion for opening locked doors Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 4:19 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, this way of articulating a Vygotskian approach to learning as NOT something that simply first is external and that then becomes internal, is one of the things that most attracted me from this paper. The competences and cognitive functions that Galina describes are intermental through and through, even when she talks of a "happy end" where the competence to initiate collaboration is interiorized. This resonates quite well with an argument that Michael R. and myself have been advancing recently referring to the inter-intrasubjectivity (see e.g., MCA perezhivanie issue), although critical readers will note that we advance the argument in a way much more metaphorical than Galina's reported experiments (and being metaphorical is a fair critique, though being so may also be a good way to move forward to new concrete research programs). Another thing I like is that the article raises a question of distinguishing (or not) between relations of learner and a skilled person (may we say, an apprenticeship?) on the one hand, and between learner and *teacher* on the other. An advantage of this approach is that it allows tracing those genetic lines of development that are specific to teaching (teaching/learning) situations of the kind western schools and middle class parents sometimes exercise exhibiting and generating expectations of learning to think and solve problems independently. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 01 December 2016 21:21 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, Since you opened a new thread for the Zukerman article -in particular ? I will highlight a central question from page 17 that is organizing the article for the reader?s ability to respond. The last paragraph on page 17 opens with: Just what is learning collaboration? The answer given: It can be (understood) in two ways. It can be seen as a sort of scaffolding temporarily needed for mental development ? until children aquire the ability to apply scientific concepts INDEPENDENTLY, to frame and solve problems demanding theoretical thinking without the help of a teacher. However, learning collaboration can also be (interpreted) not as an ancillary developmental tool, not as an EXTERNAL removable support created in the course of building the mental ediface, but as an important part of this ediface, as A VALUABLE ABILITY ESSENTIAL TO HUMANS AT ANY POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE. It is this 2nd version of (learning collaboration) as a valuable (intermental ability) that continues and is universal, that this paper is highlighting for our further inquiry into Just what is learning collaboration? As an aspect of answering, Just what is education? A four way back and forth co-generation of genetic phenomenology Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: December 1, 2016 8:09 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to learn (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active force in learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the concepts (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky school: 1) As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out with the help of an adult, it is NOT independent 2) People can independently bring about collaborative (intermental action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist within the Vygotsky school. To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. As Zackerman says: Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the adult disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and purpose. The key question shifts to become: What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY structure (intermental) action. I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School exploration of developmental paths. Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration of others. Note that both alternatives are offering the key to answering -what is education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into this open question Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an educationbe?" Alfredo, ? WHAT is education. This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing stream. On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of (intermental) collaboration. Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of intermental collaboration. Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to *endure*. What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving adult as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a thing of inherent value. THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school age). So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next period emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and *enduring* form of collaboration. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education be?" Hi all, I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue 3 lead article. ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal reading of 3 articles: Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's reading of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, has to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most importantly, ?the question is also about what education could instead be as possibility, as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are necessary: we need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as much as we need a notion of what a good education could be. Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading for the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I think we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article (recently mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition brings in is, in my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for connecting the two questions posed above, the one on the facts of education and the one on possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter question on possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability to learn is. She writes: "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what abilities children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular developmental potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm in childhood development" Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and the desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are *educability* and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies in the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for many reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on age that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses the connection between communication and generalization, a connection that became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and generalization, in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the "internalisation" way of languaging it). The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. Alfredo From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Fri Dec 2 15:34:44 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 23:34:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com>, <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no>, <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no>, <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com>, Message-ID: <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no> Phillip, interesting thoughts. ?Made me think of my ongoing experience at an elementary school (below). I also felt uneasy in the way Zukerman phrased some aspects of teaching/learning, and most of all, I did not understand why she talked about students learning, but not about teachers learning: teachers do also learn and develop (change!) in and through teaching/learning situations (and become better or worse teachers). But there is something concerning "compliance" that I do not get from your argument. You say that in Galina's examples, "children are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate" ... and then I wonder, is not this inherent to any educational situation? This is certainly what happens in many homes, including my own. Indeed, deeming something appropriate seems to be necessary to be able to decide what kind of education we want, right? Or should we deem as inappropriate that people expect other people to do what they feel/believe is appropriate? But yes, another question is, what type of relations do we want to engage into, what culture do we want?. After all, if the model is science (which in Zukerman's case, who follows Davydov, seems to be), is not science the product of the same (increasingly globalised) history from which neoliberalism, comunism or putinism also are products? I am everyday working as an assistant in an arts-based elementary school here in Canada and I witness and participate in enforcing practicesm that have very little to do with the progressist ideas explicitly endorsed by the school. Even though I do not want to part-take in them, it really takes a lot of work to break free from the inertia of the tasks, which are (unawarely) designed so as to require enforcement. It is a very visceral situation, being there with kids I love, and yet finding myself doing precisely what I do not want to do. I am caught in the situation. What do I need to do to break from it? I think first is the work of becoming aware not only of the fact, but the conditions that sustain the fact: the task. Next, I guess I have to realise that changing myself as an educator requires changing the tasks. We are currently working on a reflective process in which I hope to bring awareness and change to the whole staff. Does this process resemble science? Alfredo ________________________________ From: White, Phillip Sent: 03 December 2016 00:00 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" everyone - having read Zukerman's paper on how young school children learn to learn, it seems to me that the teaching strategies she promotes will not come close to alleviating the problem of neoliberalism and the hollowing out of students. as stated on page 2, "... schoolchildren must to able to compute, read, write, and, by the way, learn. This occurred in the late 1970's in the face of one in a series of technological revolutions confronting manufacturers with a new need for lifelong training." so there is the core proleptic goal of neoliberal education - students are to be educated to meet the needs of business. in my own experience of teaching - from kindergarten to graduate school - the child who is described as an independent learner is actually a compliant child. and certainly in Zukerman's examples, these children are also learning to be compliant - they are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate for the classroom. in point of fact, the last elementary school i was in for fifteen years - 2001 - 2016 - the type of teaching and questioning strategies promoted by Zukerman were practiced in every classroom. and teachers were explicitly evaluated on how close them came to a rather common mantra: Never do for a child that she can do herself. and, yes, all answers elicited through open questions were written so that all could see, and then analysed and evaluated by the students. as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning and social practices, at core there is always an ideology. here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to authority. phillip ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 8:26 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, The resonance of your answer is harmonic with my question and feels so gestating and co-generative. Learning collaboration as joint action leading [orienting receptively] to freedom in the opening of future joint action [all the way down]. Mastering one?s *relations* TO OTHERS is achieved [an ability Zukerman would say] by becoming subject AND SUBJECTING TO those relations. At the heart of our inquiries is *relations* in their polyphonic manifestations. What has just occurred here and now as an example [an exemplar?] of being carried along by the *subject matter* developing what *we* mean. Con/vivial - con/verse/ation - all the way down. MITSEIN as well-being-in-the-world- WITH- others [abbreviated or shortened to *well-being* An original and very appealing view/image on WHAT independence, or BECOMING an independent learner - means I feel heard and inspired and grateful in this spirit [value?] of friendship and fellowship unfolding in the back and forth across perspectives Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 9:40 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, how accepted one view on Vygotsky is, is something many others in this list know better than me. When I began reading Vygotsky, many here had already bee studying his original works for 30 years... I know, however, that it is easy to simplify matters one way or another. It is quite common, for example, to find published papers where Vygotskian concepts are used in ways that effectively reify cognitivist views that cognitive science itself has been trying to get rid off for long time now. Perhaps the question is not so much about how accepted a version of a legacy is, and perhaps less so how accurate that version is with the original intention, but how generative this version is for whatever we find useful pursuing. A view where joint action leads to freedom in the generation of future joint action (the turtles all the way down), and not independently of it, seems to me more promising than other versions. Although many things in this article are surely debatable, it certainly offers an original and appealing view on what independence, or becoming and independent learner means. Vygotskian historians have noted that Vygotsky often referred to Bacon's aphorism "natura parendo vincitur"... In G.Zuckerman's article, mastering one's relation to others is achieved by becoming subject and subjecting to those relations. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 02 December 2016 04:37 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, How accepted is this perspective of the Vygotskian legacy as being (intermental) through and through? The metaphor (turtles all the way down) comes to mind? This perspective opens up the ideal or the possible of learning collaboration as involving a spectrum or a layering of developmental periods that emphasize a (merging quality) but emphasizes that all the periods continue to be alive and animated. This includes the original receptivity marking the infants gestures, and imitation, and play/imaginal and learning activity as all active ingredients creating the personality. To later become reflective and acquire some degree of volition over these earlier more primordial deeper layers/spectrum of merged abilities as secondary phenomena of learning collaboration seems to occur as a derivative experience (after the experience of merger). Opens up the question of central lines for further inquiry in the back and forth. This term (intermental) seems to be a key notion for opening locked doors Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 4:19 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, this way of articulating a Vygotskian approach to learning as NOT something that simply first is external and that then becomes internal, is one of the things that most attracted me from this paper. The competences and cognitive functions that Galina describes are intermental through and through, even when she talks of a "happy end" where the competence to initiate collaboration is interiorized. This resonates quite well with an argument that Michael R. and myself have been advancing recently referring to the inter-intrasubjectivity (see e.g., MCA perezhivanie issue), although critical readers will note that we advance the argument in a way much more metaphorical than Galina's reported experiments (and being metaphorical is a fair critique, though being so may also be a good way to move forward to new concrete research programs). Another thing I like is that the article raises a question of distinguishing (or not) between relations of learner and a skilled person (may we say, an apprenticeship?) on the one hand, and between learner and *teacher* on the other. An advantage of this approach is that it allows tracing those genetic lines of development that are specific to teaching (teaching/learning) situations of the kind western schools and middle class parents sometimes exercise exhibiting and generating expectations of learning to think and solve problems independently. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 01 December 2016 21:21 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, Since you opened a new thread for the Zukerman article -in particular ? I will highlight a central question from page 17 that is organizing the article for the reader?s ability to respond. The last paragraph on page 17 opens with: Just what is learning collaboration? The answer given: It can be (understood) in two ways. It can be seen as a sort of scaffolding temporarily needed for mental development ? until children aquire the ability to apply scientific concepts INDEPENDENTLY, to frame and solve problems demanding theoretical thinking without the help of a teacher. However, learning collaboration can also be (interpreted) not as an ancillary developmental tool, not as an EXTERNAL removable support created in the course of building the mental ediface, but as an important part of this ediface, as A VALUABLE ABILITY ESSENTIAL TO HUMANS AT ANY POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE. It is this 2nd version of (learning collaboration) as a valuable (intermental ability) that continues and is universal, that this paper is highlighting for our further inquiry into Just what is learning collaboration? As an aspect of answering, Just what is education? A four way back and forth co-generation of genetic phenomenology Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: December 1, 2016 8:09 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to learn (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active force in learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the concepts (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky school: 1) As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out with the help of an adult, it is NOT independent 2) People can independently bring about collaborative (intermental action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist within the Vygotsky school. To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. As Zackerman says: Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the adult disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and purpose. The key question shifts to become: What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY structure (intermental) action. I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School exploration of developmental paths. Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration of others. Note that both alternatives are offering the key to answering -what is education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into this open question Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an educationbe?" Alfredo, ? WHAT is education. This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing stream. On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of (intermental) collaboration. Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of intermental collaboration. Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to *endure*. What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving adult as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a thing of inherent value. THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school age). So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next period emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and *enduring* form of collaboration. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education be?" Hi all, I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue 3 lead article. ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal reading of 3 articles: Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's reading of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, has to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most importantly, ?the question is also about what education could instead be as possibility, as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are necessary: we need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as much as we need a notion of what a good education could be. Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading for the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I think we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article (recently mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition brings in is, in my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for connecting the two questions posed above, the one on the facts of education and the one on possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter question on possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability to learn is. She writes: "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what abilities children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular developmental potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm in childhood development" Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and the desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are *educability* and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies in the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for many reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on age that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses the connection between communication and generalization, a connection that became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and generalization, in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the "internalisation" way of languaging it). The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. Alfredo From ewall@umich.edu Fri Dec 2 15:47:15 2016 From: ewall@umich.edu (Edward Wall) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 17:47:15 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> Message-ID: <1DE83503-218D-4E0B-BD80-C4852B990209@umich.edu> Carrie My read of Barton?s publications is that she is using the Maker movement as a platform as regards issues of equity and science taken broadly. Is this a fair read or are there other important factors I am missing?? My read of a nice paper published by Jessica Thompson and others in TCR is that she sees what she terms as 'rigor and responsiveness? as the key element. In my words - not hers - key is respect for the discipline (rigor) and key is respect for each other (responsiveness). Is this a fair read or are there other important factors I am missing? Megan Bang seems less in the the science/math loop although she just may not have published much in this area. I did see one paper that, one might say, addressed what some would term ethnomathematics. However, I see nothing in the work of these researchers in the discipline of mathematics per se. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction? Here is why I?m asking. Just assume that I am a dumb mathematics educator (which I am - smile) and I wish to help those I teach (which I do) - i.e. those who will be elementary and secondary mathematics teachers - in somehow implementing something like rigor and responsiveness.? I do understand that curriculum and teaching are intertwined, but I also know that teachers enact curriculum and may or may not choose make room for responsiveness (that was also a point in the Thompson article). Now it is possible that all my students will, on their own and in their own classrooms, develop substantial notions of rigor and responsiveness, but it is possible that some might struggle. What experiences might I and others design to help those that struggle; for instance, what constitutes rigor (one can certainly be under or over rigorous). Likewise, what constitutes responsiveness (one certainly doesn?t need to talk to be responsive). Often people such as I do have relations with those, say, in mathematics, child development, and educational philosophy (among others). But, perhaps you don?t see this as happening in the college classroom, but during teaching itself. This still raises the interesting question as to what should occur in the college classroom (although some would just abolish such classrooms, perhaps understandably). Maybe it is too soon to ask such a question, but until it is answered in some pragmatic fashion, dumb mathematics educators such as myself will continue muddle to the benefit of none and, perhaps, detriment of all. Ed Wall > On Dec 1, 2016, at 3:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote: > > Hi all, > > Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in regarding other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and science. First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying to suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow ideas about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There are certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s work at Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s work at the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young people in the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who utilize the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced ways of being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means by which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not entirely sure how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. > > > -- > > CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. > STEM Researcher > SRI International > Center for Technology in Learning > > > (650) 859-5262 > Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 > Skype: carrie.allen_9 > > On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com" wrote: > > So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. > This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our inquiry. > This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of learning. > > Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Edward Wall > Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > > Larry > > There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I?m not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics > > 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) > 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a teacher at one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). > 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 > 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the evidence isn?t clear) > > Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is put off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according to some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this is a bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling for the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). > > Ed > >> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: >> >> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it possible we are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation that were not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or incarnate deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. >> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural imaginaries) that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture well-being? >> >> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction >> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> From: Huw Lloyd >> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >> >> Alfredo, >> >> Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems inherent >> in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues can be >> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that can be >> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for "good >> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real problem >> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like Davydov's >> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". There >> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important >> implications. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> >> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >> >>> Huw, >>> >>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, social) >>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the formation >>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all educational >>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather should be >>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, *pathological* (or >>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and >>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some young >>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was Mike who >>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question is, will >>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the double bind >>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only include the >>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a higher order >>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to grow >>> rather than come to stall). >>> >>> Alfredo >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd >>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>> >>> Alfredo, >>> >>> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is another >>> matter. >>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, because there >>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is educational -- >>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an Illich >>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it just >>> takes a different course. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> wrote: >>> >>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates to this >>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to >>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, that >>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between two, >>> not >>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and >>> Phillip's >>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as all we >>> do. >>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have wonderfully >>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in maths, >>> but >>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever that >>> best >>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and context that >>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives and >>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it so that >>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, according >>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a hollowed-out >>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had illusion >>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities to >>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but also a >>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown in >>> people >>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we have a >>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? Not just >>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. >>>> >>>> Alfredo >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> on behalf of White, Phillip >>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>> >>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these >>> examples >>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at where she >>> is >>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a looking >>> back >>>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then setting a >>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, so >>> yeah, >>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of present >>>> activities to attain future goals. >>>> >>>> >>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you". >>>> >>>> >>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely on >>> their >>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all about >>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people like me >>>> do. >>>> >>>> >>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in this >>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. >>>> >>>> >>>> phillip >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> on behalf of David Kellogg >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>> >>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty mental >>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles I have >>> a >>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing rather >>> than >>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is >>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense of some >>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on tenses, and >>> the >>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in and out >>> of >>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. >>>> >>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the way >>> the >>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see >>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at what the >>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this simply >>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take simple >>> present >>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it because >>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the >>> figured >>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is youth? >>>> >>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very much a >>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" you >>> often >>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". >>>> >>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? >>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to find >>> out >>>> if anybody really cares. >>>> >>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: both >>> the >>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of statistical >>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the morning >>> after >>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of those >>> black >>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but couldn't be >>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class voters" who >>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North Carolina >>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently knowing how >>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented as >>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would be >>> part >>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that use >>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the impossible >>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times without >>> any >>>> memory at all). >>>> >>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together you >>> notice >>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your >>> question, >>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend to >>> change >>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On the one >>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too wholly >>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of these >>> moments >>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in >>> itself. >>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and objects >>> in >>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Macquarie University >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> David, >>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this topic, >>> but >>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection between >>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged?interactants >>> view >>>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is >>> largely >>>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians as >>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be interesting >>> to >>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each >>> other >>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of connecting >>>> the >>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to >>> clarify >>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential elections, >>> and >>>>> what not. >>>>> >>>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and Halliday on >>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in ?basic >>>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has said >>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As you?d >>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what he >>>> calls >>>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain is >>>> more >>>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he analyzes >>> tense >>>>> and aspect. >>>>> >>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar has a >>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage based, >>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I think >>>> there >>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m not >>>> smart >>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection must >>> be >>>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? ethnographers >>> are >>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is raising >>>> this >>>>> issue. >>>>> >>>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with the >>>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that the >>>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may say >>> that >>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school was >>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I got to >>>> the >>>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin under >>>> the >>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in Chapter 8 >>> of >>>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. >>>>> >>>>> I?ll end it there. >>>>> >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Henry: >>>>>> >>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and >>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the >>>>> different >>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker somehow >>>> sees >>>>> it >>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space within >>>>> space). >>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and >>>>> happenings. >>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's >>>>> temporally >>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that >>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either >>> proleptically >>>> or >>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article we >>>> are >>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three >>> weeks >>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into >>> the >>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has been >>>>> (past) >>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. >>>>>> >>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me >>> that >>>>> the >>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That is, >>> the >>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more and >>>>> less >>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example in >>>>> this >>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the >>> task >>>>> of >>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, the >>>>> scope, >>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science identities >>> and >>>>> the >>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this >>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed out a >>>>> little >>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the damn >>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing the >>>>> other: >>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some task >>>> that >>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space >>> and >>>>> not >>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way you >>>> dig >>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. >>>>>> >>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the >>>>> article: >>>>>> >>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans", >>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP classes) >>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or what >>>>> Eckhart >>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', >>>> 'gangbangers') >>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and what >>>> they >>>>>> think about themselves) >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are >>>>> probably >>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really do >>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). Different >>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of the >>>>> school >>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers and >>>>> groups >>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's >>>> always >>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the >>> data >>>>> is >>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against what >>> is >>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of >>>>>> intervention is. >>>>>> >>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured by >>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that just >>> an >>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words (although >>>> maybe >>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds for >>>>> hope? >>>>>> >>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own >>>>> *history*, >>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* it >>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances existing >>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of all >>>> dead >>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living." >>>>>> >>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a >>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> All, >>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I >>> wanted >>>>> to >>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera John-Steiner >>> and >>>>> her >>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating Mathematics: >>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers to >>>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within these >>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and >>> Reuben?s >>>>> book >>>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real (working) >>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we call >>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching of >>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and could >>> be >>>>>>> relevant to this discussion. >>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Margaret >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave it >>> to >>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous term >>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments about >>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place of >>>>>>> identity. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of >>> "model >>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM subjects >>>> would >>>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with >>> identifying >>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to find >>>>> out" >>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is >>>>>>> foregrounded >>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background >>> social >>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at the >>>>> role >>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about >>>>> unknowns. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set of >>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such that >>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable within >>>> these >>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with the >>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < >>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for the >>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed Out.? >>>> We >>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream of >>>>>>>>> thinking here! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas about >>>> the >>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we would >>> like >>>> to >>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students >>> were >>>>>>> making >>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them >>>> through >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured >>>> worlds >>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us >>> reflected >>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty >>> serious >>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what >>> theories >>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of >>> ?exemplars? >>>>> we >>>>>>>>> might turn to. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < >>> lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably sens >>> as >>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning and >>>>>>> sense) >>>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. >>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of (hollowed-out) >>>>> meaning >>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for >>>>> developing a >>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. >>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of >>> social >>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about improving >>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of the >>>>> study >>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary >>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, can >>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section (identity-in-context) >>>> to >>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured worlds). >>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of history-in-person. >>>> That >>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of person >>>> one >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. >>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the >>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries (figured >>>>>>> worlds) >>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local practices >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially and >>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are >>>>>>> recognized >>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological >>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* to >>>>>>> *what* >>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we >>> take. >>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn >>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper ethical >>>>> turn >>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. >>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as well >>>> as >>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as >>>> beacons >>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the >>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from >>> their >>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole >>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>> Re-started >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might send >>>> them >>>>>>>>>> here: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web >>> site >>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to implement. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < >>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and >>>> Science >>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret >>>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so during the >>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I shared >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> link >>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion to a >>>>> halt >>>>>>>>>>> until >>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret and >>>>> Carrie >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, but I >>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves as >>>> soon >>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a discussion >>> of >>>> an >>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An >>> American >>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" >>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark day >>>> for >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some >>> grounds >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home >>> now, >>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of >>> mind" >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>> organisation of >>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to >>> Trump's >>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of everyday >>>>> life. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on >>> women's >>>>>>>>>>> scholar >>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to the >>>>>>>>>>> discussions >>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I >>> hope >>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of those >>>>> still >>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins us >>>> next >>>>>>>>>>> week! >>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would be >>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance at >>> the >>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade >>> into >>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have until >>>> next >>>>>>>>>>> week >>>>>>>>>>> to think about it. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to >>> catch >>>>> up! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that the >>>> data >>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was the >>>>>>>>>>> processes >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the >>>>>>> externally >>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study using >>>>>>>>>>> theories >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your >>>> position. >>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if you >>> are >>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point (in >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the >>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I >>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it could >>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the adult >>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? that >>> this >>>>>>>>>>> narrative >>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather >>> could >>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in >>> particular >>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american >>> education >>>>>>>>>>> began? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen >>> study, >>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, >>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow >>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning and >>>>>>>>>>> sense. I >>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes >>> *direction* >>>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of depends >>>> on >>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. >>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you and >>>> me) >>>>>>>>>>> way of >>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical >>> ways >>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the >>>> *historical-in-person*. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the description >>> of >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing >>>> circumstances* >>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The article says: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other >>>> Sociocultural >>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that >>> is, >>>>>>>>>>> learning >>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a >>>> particular >>>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not stable or >>>> fixed. >>>>>>> As >>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too may >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & Skinner, >>>>>>> 1997). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity processes >>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> start >>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are *external* >>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the >>>> importance >>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or primordially >>> to >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a gap >>> in >>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* >>> and >>>>>>>>>>> highly >>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in actual*ity. >>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the >>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, >>>> unsure >>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" >>>>> questions >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be working >>>> on. >>>>> In >>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a moment >>>> which >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big >>>> Bang. >>>>>>> But >>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start >>> (the >>>>> Big >>>>>>>>>>> Bang >>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention the >>>>> origins >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> life). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just >>>>> thoughtfully >>>>>>>>>>> sent >>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper leaves a >>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>>> big >>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap is >>>>>>> largely >>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, >>> 'identity' >>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to be >>>>>>>>>>> sustained." >>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good student, >>>> though >>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest, >>>>>>>>>>> excitement, >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." (193) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm >>>> confident', >>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm >>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted in >>> the >>>>>>>>>>> context >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, their >>>>>>>>>>> statements >>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for >>>> being >>>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity >>> characteristics >>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, >>> do >>>> it >>>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." >>> (193) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by >>>>> society", >>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context of >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> figured >>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to go >>>>>>> against >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's >>>> views >>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that contradicts >>>> my >>>>>>>>>>> data: >>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the >>>> theory >>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also >>> don't >>>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I think >>> the >>>>>>> word >>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and >>> engagement >>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter easily, >>> do >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than >>> others >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is >>>>> actually >>>>>>>>>>> "I" >>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking >>>> about, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation >>> between >>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the activity >>> at >>>>>>> hand >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world of >>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a good >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in >>> both >>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky >>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a >>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and "you" >>>>>>>>>>> relationship >>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I >>> can >>>>> make >>>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, >>>>>>>>>>> particularly >>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number and >>> a >>>>>>> class >>>>>>>>>>> over >>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the >>>> interpersonal >>>>>>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me like a >>>>>>> strange >>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) somewhere >>>>> between >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I >>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can >>> probably >>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the >>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to >>>>> (Vygotsky) >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language at >>>> one >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) the >>>>> moment >>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying clauses >>>>> ("I'm >>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can >>> pull >>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> off") >>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, >>> which >>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< >>>> http://www.tandfonline >>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful >>> paper >>>>>>>>>>> (which >>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and >>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), >>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret >>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science >>>>>>>>>>> Education >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the >>>> whole >>>>>>>>>>> issue, >>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie together >>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity in >>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>> case). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after US >>>>>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). >>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I >>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also attach it >>> as >>>>>>>>>>> PDF. >>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > > > > From ewall@umich.edu Fri Dec 2 16:09:51 2016 From: ewall@umich.edu (Edward Wall) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 18:09:51 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [Sysfling] Research in Subject-matter Teaching and Learning (RISTAL) References: Message-ID: <355B4266-2DC3-44AE-BA5A-17C1A23E8C96@umich.edu> Just got this. It seems that Margaret and Carrie?s paper might be an appropriate response to this. Ed Wall > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Mary Schleppegrell > Subject: [Sysfling] Fwd: Research in Subject-matter Teaching and Learning (RISTAL) > Date: December 2, 2016 at 8:17:30 AM CST > To: sysfling@cardiff.ac.uk > > FYI > > Dear colleagues, > > We wish to announce that the Association for ?Fachdidaktik? (GFD; www.fachdidaktik.org ) and the University of Vienna are launching a new scholarly, peer-reviewed journal called Research in Subject-matter Teaching and Learning (RISTAL; www.ristal.org ). We are currently accepting submissions for the first issue, which is scheduled to appear in autumn 2017. > > If you would be so kind, please forward this announcement to colleagues in your field who are interested in fostering comparative perspectives and a productive exchange of ideas among researchers in subject-matter education around the world. > > You may find further information at www.ristal.org . > > > Prof. Dr. Martin Rothgangel (editor-in-chief) > > > > University of Vienna > Institute for Religious Education > Schenkenstr. 8-10 > A-1010 Vienna, Austria > Tel.: +43-1-4277-32904 > E-mail: martin.rothgangel@univie.ac.at > Web: etfrp.univie.ac.at > > > > > > -- > Mary J. Schleppegrell > Professor, School of Education > University of Michigan > 610 E. University Ave. > Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1259 > > office: 734-647-2449 > fax: 734-763-1368 > mjschlep@umich.edu > > _______________________________________________ > Sysfling mailing list > Sysfling@cardiff.ac.uk > https://mailman.cf.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/sysfling From mvshea@gmail.com Fri Dec 2 16:11:12 2016 From: mvshea@gmail.com (molly shea) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 16:11:12 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: <1DE83503-218D-4E0B-BD80-C4852B990209@umich.edu> References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> <1DE83503-218D-4E0B-BD80-C4852B990209@umich.edu> Message-ID: Hi Ed, Megan Bang and Doug Medin wrote an excellent book on Science Education: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/whos-asking *Overview* The answers to scientific questions depend on who?s asking, because the questions asked and the answers sought reflect the cultural values and orientations of the questioner. These values and orientations are most often those of Western science. In Who?s Asking?, Douglas Medin and Megan Bang argue that despite the widely held view that science is objective, value-neutral, and acultural, scientists do not shed their cultures at the laboratory or classroom door; their practices reflect their values, belief systems, and worldviews. Medin and Bang argue further that scientist diversity?the participation of researchers and educators with different cultural orientations?provides new perspectives and leads to more effective science and better science education. Medin and Bang compare Native American and European American orientations toward the natural world and apply these findings to science education. The European American model, they find, sees humans as separated from nature; the Native American model sees humans as part of a natural ecosystem. Medin and Bang then report on the development of ecologically oriented and community-based science education programs on the Menominee reservation in Wisconsin and at the American Indian Center of Chicago. Medin and Bang?s novel argument for scientist diversity also has important implications for questions of minority underrepresentation in science. Thanks, Molly Shea On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > Carrie > > My read of Barton?s publications is that she is using the Maker > movement as a platform as regards issues of equity and science taken > broadly. Is this a fair read or are there other important factors I am > missing?? > > My read of a nice paper published by Jessica Thompson and others in > TCR is that she sees what she terms as 'rigor and responsiveness? as the > key element. In my words - not hers - key is respect for the discipline > (rigor) and key is respect for each other (responsiveness). Is this a fair > read or are there other important factors I am missing? > > Megan Bang seems less in the the science/math loop although she just > may not have published much in this area. I did see one paper that, one > might say, addressed what some would term ethnomathematics. > > However, I see nothing in the work of these researchers in the discipline > of mathematics per se. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction? > > Here is why I?m asking. Just assume that I am a dumb mathematics educator > (which I am - smile) and I wish to help those I teach (which I do) - i.e. > those who will be elementary and secondary mathematics teachers - in > somehow implementing something like rigor and responsiveness.? I do > understand that curriculum and teaching are intertwined, but I also know > that teachers enact curriculum and may or may not choose make room for > responsiveness (that was also a point in the Thompson article). Now it is > possible that all my students will, on their own and in their own > classrooms, develop substantial notions of rigor and responsiveness, but it > is possible that some might struggle. What experiences might I and others > design to help those that struggle; for instance, what constitutes rigor > (one can certainly be under or over rigorous). Likewise, what constitutes > responsiveness (one certainly doesn?t need to talk to be responsive). Often > people such as I do have relations with those, say, in mathematics, child > development, and educational philosophy (among others). But, perhaps you > don?t see this as happening in the college classroom, but during teaching > itself. This still raises the interesting question as to what should occur > in the college classroom (although some would just abolish such classrooms, > perhaps understandably). Maybe it is too soon to ask such a question, but > until it is answered in some pragmatic fashion, dumb mathematics educators > such as myself will continue muddle to the benefit of none and, perhaps, > detriment of all. > > Ed Wall > > > > > On Dec 1, 2016, at 3:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in regarding > other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and science. > First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying to > suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow ideas > about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There are > certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s work at > Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s work at > the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and > normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young people in > the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and > science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of > the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who utilize > the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, > questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced ways of > being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means by > which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not entirely sure > how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are > ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. > > > > > > -- > > > > CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. > > STEM Researcher > > SRI International > > Center for Technology in Learning > > > > > > (650) 859-5262 > > Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 > > Skype: carrie.allen_9 > > > > On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of > lpscholar2@gmail.com" lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a > particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. > > This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes > approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our > inquiry. > > This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of learning. > > > > Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be > foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > From: Edward Wall > > Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > > > > Larry > > > > There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I?m > not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics > > > > 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) > > 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a teacher at > one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). > > 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 > > 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the > Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the evidence > isn?t clear) > > > > Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is put > off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; > however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey > recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according to > some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this is a > bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling for > the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). > > > > Ed > > > >> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: > >> > >> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates > (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it possible we > are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or > historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation that were > not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or incarnate > deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. > >> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural imaginaries) > that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture well-being? > >> > >> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction > >> > >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >> > >> From: Huw Lloyd > >> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >> > >> Alfredo, > >> > >> Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems > inherent > >> in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues can be > >> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that can be > >> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for "good > >> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real > problem > >> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like Davydov's > >> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". There > >> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important > >> implications. > >> > >> Best, > >> Huw > >> > >> > >> > >> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Huw, > >>> > >>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, social) > >>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the > formation > >>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all educational > >>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather should be > >>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, *pathological* > (or > >>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and > >>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some young > >>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was Mike > who > >>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question is, > will > >>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the double > bind > >>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only include the > >>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a higher > order > >>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to grow > >>> rather than come to stall). > >>> > >>> Alfredo > >>> ________________________________________ > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd > >>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>> > >>> Alfredo, > >>> > >>> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is > another > >>> matter. > >>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, because > there > >>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is educational > -- > >>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an Illich > >>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it just > >>> takes a different course. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> Huw > >>> > >>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates to > this > >>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to > >>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, that > >>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between > two, > >>> not > >>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and > >>> Phillip's > >>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as all > we > >>> do. > >>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have wonderfully > >>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in maths, > >>> but > >>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever that > >>> best > >>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and context > that > >>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives and > >>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it so > that > >>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, > according > >>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a > hollowed-out > >>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had > illusion > >>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities to > >>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but > also a > >>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown in > >>> people > >>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we > have a > >>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? Not > just > >>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. > >>>> > >>>> Alfredo > >>>> ________________________________________ > >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu> > >>>> on behalf of White, Phillip > >>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>>> > >>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these > >>> examples > >>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at where > she > >>> is > >>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a looking > >>> back > >>>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then setting > a > >>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, so > >>> yeah, > >>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of present > >>>> activities to attain future goals. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you". > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely on > >>> their > >>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all > about > >>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people > like me > >>>> do. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in > this > >>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> phillip > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu> > >>>> on behalf of David Kellogg > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>>> > >>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty > mental > >>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles I > have > >>> a > >>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing rather > >>> than > >>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is > >>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense of > some > >>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on tenses, > and > >>> the > >>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in and > out > >>> of > >>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. > >>>> > >>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the way > >>> the > >>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see > >>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at what > the > >>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this > simply > >>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take simple > >>> present > >>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it > because > >>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the > >>> figured > >>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is youth? > >>>> > >>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very > much a > >>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" you > >>> often > >>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". > >>>> > >>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? > >>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to > find > >>> out > >>>> if anybody really cares. > >>>> > >>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: > both > >>> the > >>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of > statistical > >>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the morning > >>> after > >>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of those > >>> black > >>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but couldn't > be > >>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class voters" > who > >>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North > Carolina > >>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently knowing > how > >>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented as > >>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would be > >>> part > >>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that use > >>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the > impossible > >>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times without > >>> any > >>>> memory at all). > >>>> > >>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together you > >>> notice > >>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your > >>> question, > >>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend to > >>> change > >>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On the > one > >>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too > wholly > >>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of these > >>> moments > >>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in > >>> itself. > >>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and > objects > >>> in > >>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. > >>>> > >>>> David Kellogg > >>>> Macquarie University > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> David, > >>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this topic, > >>> but > >>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection between > >>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged?interactants > >>> view > >>>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is > >>> largely > >>>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians as > >>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be interesting > >>> to > >>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each > >>> other > >>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of > connecting > >>>> the > >>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to > >>> clarify > >>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential elections, > >>> and > >>>>> what not. > >>>>> > >>>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and Halliday > on > >>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in ?basic > >>>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has > said > >>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As you?d > >>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what he > >>>> calls > >>>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain > is > >>>> more > >>>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he analyzes > >>> tense > >>>>> and aspect. > >>>>> > >>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar has > a > >>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage > based, > >>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I think > >>>> there > >>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m not > >>>> smart > >>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection must > >>> be > >>>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? ethnographers > >>> are > >>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is raising > >>>> this > >>>>> issue. > >>>>> > >>>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with the > >>>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that > the > >>>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may say > >>> that > >>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school > was > >>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I got > to > >>>> the > >>>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin > under > >>>> the > >>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in Chapter 8 > >>> of > >>>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. > >>>>> > >>>>> I?ll end it there. > >>>>> > >>>>> Henry > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Henry: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and > >>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the > >>>>> different > >>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker somehow > >>>> sees > >>>>> it > >>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space within > >>>>> space). > >>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and > >>>>> happenings. > >>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's > >>>>> temporally > >>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that > >>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either > >>> proleptically > >>>> or > >>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article we > >>>> are > >>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three > >>> weeks > >>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into > >>> the > >>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has been > >>>>> (past) > >>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me > >>> that > >>>>> the > >>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That is, > >>> the > >>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more > and > >>>>> less > >>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example > in > >>>>> this > >>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the > >>> task > >>>>> of > >>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, the > >>>>> scope, > >>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science identities > >>> and > >>>>> the > >>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this > >>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed out a > >>>>> little > >>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the damn > >>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing the > >>>>> other: > >>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some task > >>>> that > >>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space > >>> and > >>>>> not > >>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way you > >>>> dig > >>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the > >>>>> article: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans", > >>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP classes) > >>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or what > >>>>> Eckhart > >>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', > >>>> 'gangbangers') > >>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and what > >>>> they > >>>>>> think about themselves) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are > >>>>> probably > >>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really do > >>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). > Different > >>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of the > >>>>> school > >>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers and > >>>>> groups > >>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's > >>>> always > >>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the > >>> data > >>>>> is > >>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against what > >>> is > >>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of > >>>>>> intervention is. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured by > >>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that just > >>> an > >>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words (although > >>>> maybe > >>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds for > >>>>> hope? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own > >>>>> *history*, > >>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* > it > >>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances > existing > >>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of all > >>>> dead > >>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a > >>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>>> Macquarie University > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> All, > >>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I > >>> wanted > >>>>> to > >>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera John-Steiner > >>> and > >>>>> her > >>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating Mathematics: > >>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers to > >>>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within > these > >>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and > >>> Reuben?s > >>>>> book > >>>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real (working) > >>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we call > >>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching > of > >>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and could > >>> be > >>>>>>> relevant to this discussion. > >>>>>>> Henry > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Dear Margaret > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave it > >>> to > >>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous term > >>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments > about > >>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place of > >>>>>>> identity. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of > >>> "model > >>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM subjects > >>>> would > >>>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with > >>> identifying > >>>>>>> with > >>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to > find > >>>>> out" > >>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is > >>>>>>> foregrounded > >>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background > >>> social > >>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at > the > >>>>> role > >>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about > >>>>> unknowns. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set of > >>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such > that > >>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable within > >>>> these > >>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with the > >>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Best, > >>>>>>>> Huw > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < > >>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for the > >>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed Out.? > >>>> We > >>>>>>> also > >>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream > of > >>>>>>>>> thinking here! > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas > about > >>>> the > >>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we would > >>> like > >>>> to > >>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students > >>> were > >>>>>>> making > >>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them > >>>> through > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured > >>>> worlds > >>>>>>> are > >>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us > >>> reflected > >>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty > >>> serious > >>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what > >>> theories > >>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of > >>> ?exemplars? > >>>>> we > >>>>>>>>> might turn to. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < > >>> lpscholar2@gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably sens > >>> as > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning > and > >>>>>>> sense) > >>>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. > >>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of (hollowed-out) > >>>>> meaning > >>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for > >>>>> developing a > >>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. > >>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of > >>> social > >>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about improving > >>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of the > >>>>> study > >>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary > >>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, can > >>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section > (identity-in-context) > >>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured worlds). > >>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of history-in-person. > >>>> That > >>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of > person > >>>> one > >>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. > >>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the > >>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries > (figured > >>>>>>> worlds) > >>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local practices > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially and > >>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are > >>>>>>> recognized > >>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological > >>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* > to > >>>>>>> *what* > >>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we > >>> take. > >>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn > >>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper > ethical > >>>>> turn > >>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. > >>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as > well > >>>> as > >>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as > >>>> beacons > >>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the > >>> neoliberal > >>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from > >>> their > >>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole > >>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM > >>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>> Re-started > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might send > >>>> them > >>>>>>>>>> here: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web > >>> site > >>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to > implement. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> mike > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > >>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and > >>>> Science > >>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret > >>>>> Eisenhart > >>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so during > the > >>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I > shared > >>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> link > >>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion to > a > >>>>> halt > >>>>>>>>>>> until > >>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret and > >>>>> Carrie > >>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, but > I > >>>>> also > >>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves as > >>>> soon > >>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a discussion > >>> of > >>>> an > >>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An > >>> American > >>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" > >>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark > day > >>>> for > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some > >>> grounds > >>>>> for > >>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home > >>> now, > >>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>> Mike > >>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of > >>> mind" > >>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>> that > >>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal > >>>>>>>>>>> organisation of > >>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to > >>> Trump's > >>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of > everyday > >>>>> life. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on > >>> women's > >>>>>>>>>>> scholar > >>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to the > >>>>>>>>>>> discussions > >>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I > >>> hope > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>> >>>>>>> edu> > >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 > >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of those > >>>>> still > >>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins us > >>>> next > >>>>>>>>>>> week! > >>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>> >>>>>>> edu> > >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 > >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would be > >>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance at > >>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade > >>> into > >>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have until > >>>> next > >>>>>>>>>>> week > >>>>>>>>>>> to think about it. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to > >>> catch > >>>>> up! > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> mike > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip > >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that the > >>>> data > >>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was the > >>>>>>>>>>> processes > >>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the > >>>>>>> externally > >>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study using > >>>>>>>>>>> theories > >>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your > >>>> position. > >>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>> you > >>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if you > >>> are > >>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point > (in > >>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> case > >>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the > >>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but > I > >>>>> think > >>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it > could > >>>> be > >>>>>>>>>>> traced > >>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the adult > >>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? that > >>> this > >>>>>>>>>>> narrative > >>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather > >>> could > >>>>> be > >>>>>>>>>>> traced > >>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in > >>> particular > >>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american > >>> education > >>>>>>>>>>> began? > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen > >>> study, > >>>>> what > >>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> phillip > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow > >>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning > and > >>>>>>>>>>> sense. I > >>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes > >>> *direction* > >>>>>>>>>>> within > >>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of > depends > >>>> on > >>>>>>>>>>> where > >>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. > >>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you and > >>>> me) > >>>>>>>>>>> way of > >>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical > >>> ways > >>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>> being > >>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the > >>>> *historical-in-person*. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the description > >>> of > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing > >>>> circumstances* > >>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> The article says: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other > >>>> Sociocultural > >>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that > >>> is, > >>>>>>>>>>> learning > >>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a > >>>> particular > >>>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not stable or > >>>> fixed. > >>>>>>> As > >>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too may > >>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & > Skinner, > >>>>>>> 1997). > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity processes > >>>> that > >>>>>>>>>>> start > >>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are *external* > >>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the > >>>> importance > >>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or primordially > >>> to > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a gap > >>> in > >>>>> our > >>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* > >>> and > >>>>>>>>>>> highly > >>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in actual*ity. > >>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the > >>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, > >>>> unsure > >>>>>>>>>>> where > >>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" > >>>>> questions > >>>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be working > >>>> on. > >>>>> In > >>>>>>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a moment > >>>> which > >>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big > >>>> Bang. > >>>>>>> But > >>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start > >>> (the > >>>>> Big > >>>>>>>>>>> Bang > >>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention the > >>>>> origins > >>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>> life). > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just > >>>>> thoughtfully > >>>>>>>>>>> sent > >>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper leaves > a > >>>>>>> really > >>>>>>>>>>> big > >>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap is > >>>>>>> largely > >>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, > >>> 'identity' > >>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to be > >>>>>>>>>>> sustained." > >>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good student, > >>>> though > >>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest, > >>>>>>>>>>> excitement, > >>>>>>>>>>> or > >>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." (193) > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm > >>>> confident', > >>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted in > >>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> context > >>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, their > >>>>>>>>>>> statements > >>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for > >>>> being > >>>>>>>>>>> good > >>>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity > >>> characteristics > >>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>> being > >>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, > >>> do > >>>> it > >>>>>>>>>>> without > >>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." > >>> (193) > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by > >>>>> society", > >>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context > of > >>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> figured > >>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to go > >>>>>>> against > >>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's > >>>> views > >>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that > contradicts > >>>> my > >>>>>>>>>>> data: > >>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the > >>>> theory > >>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also > >>> don't > >>>>>>>>>>> believe > >>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I think > >>> the > >>>>>>> word > >>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and > >>> engagement > >>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>> much > >>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter easily, > >>> do > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> work > >>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than > >>> others > >>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>> get > >>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is > >>>>> actually > >>>>>>>>>>> "I" > >>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking > >>>> about, > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation > >>> between > >>>>>>>>>>> their > >>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the activity > >>> at > >>>>>>> hand > >>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world > of > >>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal > >>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a good > >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity > >>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in > >>> both > >>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky > >>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a > >>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and "you" > >>>>>>>>>>> relationship > >>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I > >>> can > >>>>> make > >>>>>>>>>>> up > >>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, > >>>>>>>>>>> particularly > >>>>>>>>>>> if > >>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number and > >>> a > >>>>>>> class > >>>>>>>>>>> over > >>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the > >>>> interpersonal > >>>>>>>>>>> somehow > >>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me like a > >>>>>>> strange > >>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) somewhere > >>>>> between > >>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but > I > >>>>> think > >>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can > >>> probably > >>>>> find > >>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the > >>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to > >>>>> (Vygotsky) > >>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language at > >>>> one > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) the > >>>>> moment > >>>>>>>>>>> when > >>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying > clauses > >>>>> ("I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can > >>> pull > >>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>> off") > >>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, > >>> which > >>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>> now > >>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< > >>>> http://www.tandfonline > >>>>> . > >>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful > >>> paper > >>>>>>>>>>> (which > >>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and > >>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), > >>>>>>>>>>> we > >>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret > >>>> Eisenhart > >>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science > >>>>>>>>>>> Education > >>>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the > >>>> whole > >>>>>>>>>>> issue, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie together > >>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity > in > >>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>> case). > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after US > >>>>>>>>>>> elections > >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). > >>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I > >>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link >>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 > >>>>>>>>> . > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also attach it > >>> as > >>>>>>>>>>> PDF. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From ewall@umich.edu Fri Dec 2 16:15:40 2016 From: ewall@umich.edu (Edward Wall) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 18:15:40 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> <1DE83503-218D-4E0B-BD80-C4852B990209@umich.edu> Message-ID: <4941A004-42BE-4BFE-9162-A277710F31ED@umich.edu> Molly This does look like an excellent book. I was just looking at her article and missed this. Many thanks!! Ed > On Dec 2, 2016, at 6:11 PM, molly shea wrote: > > Hi Ed, > > Megan Bang and Doug Medin wrote an excellent book on Science Education: > https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/whos-asking > > *Overview* > The answers to scientific questions depend on who?s asking, because the > questions asked and the answers sought reflect the cultural values and > orientations of the questioner. These values and orientations are most > often those of Western science. In Who?s Asking?, Douglas Medin and Megan > Bang argue that despite the widely held view that science is objective, > value-neutral, and acultural, scientists do not shed their cultures at the > laboratory or classroom door; their practices reflect their values, belief > systems, and worldviews. Medin and Bang argue further that scientist > diversity?the participation of researchers and educators with different > cultural orientations?provides new perspectives and leads to more effective > science and better science education. > > Medin and Bang compare Native American and European American orientations > toward the natural world and apply these findings to science education. The > European American model, they find, sees humans as separated from nature; > the Native American model sees humans as part of a natural ecosystem. Medin > and Bang then report on the development of ecologically oriented and > community-based science education programs on the Menominee reservation in > Wisconsin and at the American Indian Center of Chicago. Medin and Bang?s > novel argument for scientist diversity also has important implications for > questions of minority underrepresentation in science. > > Thanks, > Molly Shea > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > >> Carrie >> >> My read of Barton?s publications is that she is using the Maker >> movement as a platform as regards issues of equity and science taken >> broadly. Is this a fair read or are there other important factors I am >> missing?? >> >> My read of a nice paper published by Jessica Thompson and others in >> TCR is that she sees what she terms as 'rigor and responsiveness? as the >> key element. In my words - not hers - key is respect for the discipline >> (rigor) and key is respect for each other (responsiveness). Is this a fair >> read or are there other important factors I am missing? >> >> Megan Bang seems less in the the science/math loop although she just >> may not have published much in this area. I did see one paper that, one >> might say, addressed what some would term ethnomathematics. >> >> However, I see nothing in the work of these researchers in the discipline >> of mathematics per se. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction? >> >> Here is why I?m asking. Just assume that I am a dumb mathematics educator >> (which I am - smile) and I wish to help those I teach (which I do) - i.e. >> those who will be elementary and secondary mathematics teachers - in >> somehow implementing something like rigor and responsiveness.? I do >> understand that curriculum and teaching are intertwined, but I also know >> that teachers enact curriculum and may or may not choose make room for >> responsiveness (that was also a point in the Thompson article). Now it is >> possible that all my students will, on their own and in their own >> classrooms, develop substantial notions of rigor and responsiveness, but it >> is possible that some might struggle. What experiences might I and others >> design to help those that struggle; for instance, what constitutes rigor >> (one can certainly be under or over rigorous). Likewise, what constitutes >> responsiveness (one certainly doesn?t need to talk to be responsive). Often >> people such as I do have relations with those, say, in mathematics, child >> development, and educational philosophy (among others). But, perhaps you >> don?t see this as happening in the college classroom, but during teaching >> itself. This still raises the interesting question as to what should occur >> in the college classroom (although some would just abolish such classrooms, >> perhaps understandably). Maybe it is too soon to ask such a question, but >> until it is answered in some pragmatic fashion, dumb mathematics educators >> such as myself will continue muddle to the benefit of none and, perhaps, >> detriment of all. >> >> Ed Wall >> >> >> >>> On Dec 1, 2016, at 3:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in regarding >> other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and science. >> First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying to >> suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow ideas >> about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There are >> certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s work at >> Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s work at >> the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and >> normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young people in >> the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and >> science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of >> the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who utilize >> the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, >> questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced ways of >> being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means by >> which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not entirely sure >> how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are >> ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. >>> STEM Researcher >>> SRI International >>> Center for Technology in Learning >>> >>> >>> (650) 859-5262 >>> Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 >>> Skype: carrie.allen_9 >>> >>> On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of >> lpscholar2@gmail.com" > lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a >> particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. >>> This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes >> approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our >> inquiry. >>> This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of learning. >>> >>> Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be >> foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. >>> >>> >>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>> >>> From: Edward Wall >>> Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I?m >> not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics >>> >>> 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) >>> 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a teacher at >> one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). >>> 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 >>> 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the >> Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the evidence >> isn?t clear) >>> >>> Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is put >> off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; >> however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey >> recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according to >> some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this is a >> bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling for >> the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). >>> >>> Ed >>> >>>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates >> (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it possible we >> are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or >> historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation that were >> not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or incarnate >> deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. >>>> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural imaginaries) >> that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture well-being? >>>> >>>> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction >>>> >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>> >>>> From: Huw Lloyd >>>> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>> >>>> Alfredo, >>>> >>>> Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems >> inherent >>>> in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues can be >>>> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that can be >>>> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for "good >>>> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real >> problem >>>> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like Davydov's >>>> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". There >>>> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important >>>> implications. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Huw >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Huw, >>>>> >>>>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, social) >>>>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the >> formation >>>>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all educational >>>>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather should be >>>>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, *pathological* >> (or >>>>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and >>>>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some young >>>>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was Mike >> who >>>>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question is, >> will >>>>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the double >> bind >>>>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only include the >>>>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a higher >> order >>>>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to grow >>>>> rather than come to stall). >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd >>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo, >>>>> >>>>> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is >> another >>>>> matter. >>>>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, because >> there >>>>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is educational >> -- >>>>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an Illich >>>>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it just >>>>> takes a different course. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates to >> this >>>>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to >>>>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, that >>>>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between >> two, >>>>> not >>>>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and >>>>> Phillip's >>>>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as all >> we >>>>> do. >>>>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have wonderfully >>>>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in maths, >>>>> but >>>>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever that >>>>> best >>>>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and context >> that >>>>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives and >>>>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it so >> that >>>>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, >> according >>>>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a >> hollowed-out >>>>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had >> illusion >>>>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities to >>>>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but >> also a >>>>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown in >>>>> people >>>>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we >> have a >>>>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? Not >> just >>>>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > edu> >>>>>> on behalf of White, Phillip >>>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>>> >>>>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these >>>>> examples >>>>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at where >> she >>>>> is >>>>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a looking >>>>> back >>>>>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then setting >> a >>>>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, so >>>>> yeah, >>>>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of present >>>>>> activities to attain future goals. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you". >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely on >>>>> their >>>>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all >> about >>>>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people >> like me >>>>>> do. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in >> this >>>>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> phillip >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > edu> >>>>>> on behalf of David Kellogg >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>>>> >>>>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty >> mental >>>>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles I >> have >>>>> a >>>>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing rather >>>>> than >>>>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is >>>>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense of >> some >>>>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on tenses, >> and >>>>> the >>>>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in and >> out >>>>> of >>>>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the way >>>>> the >>>>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see >>>>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at what >> the >>>>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this >> simply >>>>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take simple >>>>> present >>>>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it >> because >>>>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the >>>>> figured >>>>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is youth? >>>>>> >>>>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very >> much a >>>>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" you >>>>> often >>>>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". >>>>>> >>>>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? >>>>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to >> find >>>>> out >>>>>> if anybody really cares. >>>>>> >>>>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: >> both >>>>> the >>>>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of >> statistical >>>>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the morning >>>>> after >>>>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of those >>>>> black >>>>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but couldn't >> be >>>>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class voters" >> who >>>>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North >> Carolina >>>>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently knowing >> how >>>>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented as >>>>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would be >>>>> part >>>>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that use >>>>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the >> impossible >>>>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times without >>>>> any >>>>>> memory at all). >>>>>> >>>>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together you >>>>> notice >>>>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your >>>>> question, >>>>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend to >>>>> change >>>>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On the >> one >>>>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too >> wholly >>>>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of these >>>>> moments >>>>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in >>>>> itself. >>>>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and >> objects >>>>> in >>>>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> David, >>>>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this topic, >>>>> but >>>>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection between >>>>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged?interactants >>>>> view >>>>>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is >>>>> largely >>>>>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians as >>>>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be interesting >>>>> to >>>>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each >>>>> other >>>>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of >> connecting >>>>>> the >>>>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to >>>>> clarify >>>>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential elections, >>>>> and >>>>>>> what not. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and Halliday >> on >>>>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in ?basic >>>>>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has >> said >>>>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As you?d >>>>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what he >>>>>> calls >>>>>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain >> is >>>>>> more >>>>>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he analyzes >>>>> tense >>>>>>> and aspect. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar has >> a >>>>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage >> based, >>>>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I think >>>>>> there >>>>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m not >>>>>> smart >>>>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection must >>>>> be >>>>>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? ethnographers >>>>> are >>>>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is raising >>>>>> this >>>>>>> issue. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with the >>>>>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that >> the >>>>>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may say >>>>> that >>>>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school >> was >>>>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I got >> to >>>>>> the >>>>>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin >> under >>>>>> the >>>>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in Chapter 8 >>>>> of >>>>>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I?ll end it there. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Henry: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and >>>>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the >>>>>>> different >>>>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker somehow >>>>>> sees >>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space within >>>>>>> space). >>>>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and >>>>>>> happenings. >>>>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's >>>>>>> temporally >>>>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that >>>>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either >>>>> proleptically >>>>>> or >>>>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article we >>>>>> are >>>>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three >>>>> weeks >>>>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into >>>>> the >>>>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has been >>>>>>> (past) >>>>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me >>>>> that >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That is, >>>>> the >>>>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more >> and >>>>>>> less >>>>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example >> in >>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the >>>>> task >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, the >>>>>>> scope, >>>>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science identities >>>>> and >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this >>>>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed out a >>>>>>> little >>>>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the damn >>>>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing the >>>>>>> other: >>>>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some task >>>>>> that >>>>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space >>>>> and >>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way you >>>>>> dig >>>>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the >>>>>>> article: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans", >>>>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP classes) >>>>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or what >>>>>>> Eckhart >>>>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', >>>>>> 'gangbangers') >>>>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and what >>>>>> they >>>>>>>> think about themselves) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are >>>>>>> probably >>>>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really do >>>>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). >> Different >>>>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of the >>>>>>> school >>>>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers and >>>>>>> groups >>>>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's >>>>>> always >>>>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the >>>>> data >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against what >>>>> is >>>>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of >>>>>>>> intervention is. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured by >>>>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that just >>>>> an >>>>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words (although >>>>>> maybe >>>>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds for >>>>>>> hope? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own >>>>>>> *history*, >>>>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* >> it >>>>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances >> existing >>>>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of all >>>>>> dead >>>>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a >>>>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I >>>>> wanted >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera John-Steiner >>>>> and >>>>>>> her >>>>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating Mathematics: >>>>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers to >>>>>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within >> these >>>>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and >>>>> Reuben?s >>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real (working) >>>>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we call >>>>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching >> of >>>>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and could >>>>> be >>>>>>>>> relevant to this discussion. >>>>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dear Margaret >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave it >>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous term >>>>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments >> about >>>>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place of >>>>>>>>> identity. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of >>>>> "model >>>>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM subjects >>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with >>>>> identifying >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to >> find >>>>>>> out" >>>>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is >>>>>>>>> foregrounded >>>>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background >>>>> social >>>>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at >> the >>>>>>> role >>>>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about >>>>>>> unknowns. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set of >>>>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such >> that >>>>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable within >>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with the >>>>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < >>>>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for the >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed Out.? >>>>>> We >>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream >> of >>>>>>>>>>> thinking here! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas >> about >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we would >>>>> like >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students >>>>> were >>>>>>>>> making >>>>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them >>>>>> through >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured >>>>>> worlds >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us >>>>> reflected >>>>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty >>>>> serious >>>>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what >>>>> theories >>>>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of >>>>> ?exemplars? >>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>> might turn to. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < >>>>> lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably sens >>>>> as >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning >> and >>>>>>>>> sense) >>>>>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. >>>>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of (hollowed-out) >>>>>>> meaning >>>>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for >>>>>>> developing a >>>>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. >>>>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of >>>>> social >>>>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about improving >>>>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of the >>>>>>> study >>>>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary >>>>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, can >>>>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section >> (identity-in-context) >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured worlds). >>>>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of history-in-person. >>>>>> That >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of >> person >>>>>> one >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. >>>>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the >>>>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries >> (figured >>>>>>>>> worlds) >>>>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local practices >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially and >>>>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are >>>>>>>>> recognized >>>>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological >>>>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* >> to >>>>>>>>> *what* >>>>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we >>>>> take. >>>>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn >>>>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper >> ethical >>>>>>> turn >>>>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. >>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as >> well >>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as >>>>>> beacons >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the >>>>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from >>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>> Re-started >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might send >>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>> here: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web >>>>> site >>>>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to >> implement. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < >>>>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and >>>>>> Science >>>>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret >>>>>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so during >> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I >> shared >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> link >>>>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion to >> a >>>>>>> halt >>>>>>>>>>>>> until >>>>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret and >>>>>>> Carrie >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, but >> I >>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves as >>>>>> soon >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a discussion >>>>> of >>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An >>>>> American >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" >>>>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark >> day >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some >>>>> grounds >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home >>>>> now, >>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of >>>>> mind" >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>>>> organisation of >>>>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to >>>>> Trump's >>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of >> everyday >>>>>>> life. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on >>>>> women's >>>>>>>>>>>>> scholar >>>>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions >>>>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I >>>>> hope >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> >>>>>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of those >>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins us >>>>>> next >>>>>>>>>>>>> week! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> >>>>>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would be >>>>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance at >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade >>>>> into >>>>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have until >>>>>> next >>>>>>>>>>>>> week >>>>>>>>>>>>> to think about it. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to >>>>> catch >>>>>>> up! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that the >>>>>> data >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was the >>>>>>>>>>>>> processes >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the >>>>>>>>> externally >>>>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study using >>>>>>>>>>>>> theories >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your >>>>>> position. >>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if you >>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point >> (in >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but >> I >>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it >> could >>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the adult >>>>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? that >>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>> narrative >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather >>>>> could >>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in >>>>> particular >>>>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american >>>>> education >>>>>>>>>>>>> began? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen >>>>> study, >>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning >> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> sense. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes >>>>> *direction* >>>>>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of >> depends >>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you and >>>>>> me) >>>>>>>>>>>>> way of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical >>>>> ways >>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the >>>>>> *historical-in-person*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the description >>>>> of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing >>>>>> circumstances* >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article says: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other >>>>>> Sociocultural >>>>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that >>>>> is, >>>>>>>>>>>>> learning >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a >>>>>> particular >>>>>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not stable or >>>>>> fixed. >>>>>>>>> As >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too may >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & >> Skinner, >>>>>>>>> 1997). >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity processes >>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> start >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are *external* >>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the >>>>>> importance >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or primordially >>>>> to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a gap >>>>> in >>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> highly >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in actual*ity. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, >>>>>> unsure >>>>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" >>>>>>> questions >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be working >>>>>> on. >>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a moment >>>>>> which >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big >>>>>> Bang. >>>>>>>>> But >>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start >>>>> (the >>>>>>> Big >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bang >>>>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention the >>>>>>> origins >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> life). >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just >>>>>>> thoughtfully >>>>>>>>>>>>> sent >>>>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper leaves >> a >>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>>>>> big >>>>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap is >>>>>>>>> largely >>>>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, >>>>> 'identity' >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to be >>>>>>>>>>>>> sustained." >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good student, >>>>>> though >>>>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest, >>>>>>>>>>>>> excitement, >>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." (193) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm >>>>>> confident', >>>>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted in >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> context >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, their >>>>>>>>>>>>> statements >>>>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for >>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity >>>>> characteristics >>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, >>>>> do >>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." >>>>> (193) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by >>>>>>> society", >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context >> of >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> figured >>>>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to go >>>>>>>>> against >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's >>>>>> views >>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that >> contradicts >>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>>> data: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the >>>>>> theory >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also >>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I think >>>>> the >>>>>>>>> word >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and >>>>> engagement >>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter easily, >>>>> do >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than >>>>> others >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is >>>>>>> actually >>>>>>>>>>>>> "I" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking >>>>>> about, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation >>>>> between >>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the activity >>>>> at >>>>>>>>> hand >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world >> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a good >>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in >>>>> both >>>>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and "you" >>>>>>>>>>>>> relationship >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I >>>>> can >>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, >>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly >>>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number and >>>>> a >>>>>>>>> class >>>>>>>>>>>>> over >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the >>>>>> interpersonal >>>>>>>>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me like a >>>>>>>>> strange >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) somewhere >>>>>>> between >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but >> I >>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can >>>>> probably >>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to >>>>>>> (Vygotsky) >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language at >>>>>> one >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) the >>>>>>> moment >>>>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying >> clauses >>>>>>> ("I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can >>>>> pull >>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>> off") >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, >>>>> which >>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< >>>>>> http://www.tandfonline >>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful >>>>> paper >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and >>>>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), >>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret >>>>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science >>>>>>>>>>>>> Education >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the >>>>>> whole >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie together >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity >> in >>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after US >>>>>>>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). >>>>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 >>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also attach it >>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> PDF. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Dec 2 16:43:01 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 16:43:01 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: <4941A004-42BE-4BFE-9162-A277710F31ED@umich.edu> References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> <1DE83503-218D-4E0B-BD80-C4852B990209@umich.edu> <4941A004-42BE-4BFE-9162-A277710F31ED@umich.edu> Message-ID: Turns out that the Medin and Bang book has been reviewed right here in our very own journal. A "must read" book for all sorts of reasons. mike On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > Molly > > This does look like an excellent book. I was just looking at her > article and missed this. > > Many thanks!! > > Ed > > > On Dec 2, 2016, at 6:11 PM, molly shea wrote: > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > Megan Bang and Doug Medin wrote an excellent book on Science Education: > > https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/whos-asking > > > > *Overview* > > The answers to scientific questions depend on who?s asking, because the > > questions asked and the answers sought reflect the cultural values and > > orientations of the questioner. These values and orientations are most > > often those of Western science. In Who?s Asking?, Douglas Medin and Megan > > Bang argue that despite the widely held view that science is objective, > > value-neutral, and acultural, scientists do not shed their cultures at > the > > laboratory or classroom door; their practices reflect their values, > belief > > systems, and worldviews. Medin and Bang argue further that scientist > > diversity?the participation of researchers and educators with different > > cultural orientations?provides new perspectives and leads to more > effective > > science and better science education. > > > > Medin and Bang compare Native American and European American orientations > > toward the natural world and apply these findings to science education. > The > > European American model, they find, sees humans as separated from nature; > > the Native American model sees humans as part of a natural ecosystem. > Medin > > and Bang then report on the development of ecologically oriented and > > community-based science education programs on the Menominee reservation > in > > Wisconsin and at the American Indian Center of Chicago. Medin and Bang?s > > novel argument for scientist diversity also has important implications > for > > questions of minority underrepresentation in science. > > > > Thanks, > > Molly Shea > > > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > > > >> Carrie > >> > >> My read of Barton?s publications is that she is using the Maker > >> movement as a platform as regards issues of equity and science taken > >> broadly. Is this a fair read or are there other important factors I am > >> missing?? > >> > >> My read of a nice paper published by Jessica Thompson and others in > >> TCR is that she sees what she terms as 'rigor and responsiveness? as the > >> key element. In my words - not hers - key is respect for the discipline > >> (rigor) and key is respect for each other (responsiveness). Is this a > fair > >> read or are there other important factors I am missing? > >> > >> Megan Bang seems less in the the science/math loop although she just > >> may not have published much in this area. I did see one paper that, one > >> might say, addressed what some would term ethnomathematics. > >> > >> However, I see nothing in the work of these researchers in the > discipline > >> of mathematics per se. Perhaps you could point me in the right > direction? > >> > >> Here is why I?m asking. Just assume that I am a dumb mathematics > educator > >> (which I am - smile) and I wish to help those I teach (which I do) - > i.e. > >> those who will be elementary and secondary mathematics teachers - in > >> somehow implementing something like rigor and responsiveness.? I do > >> understand that curriculum and teaching are intertwined, but I also know > >> that teachers enact curriculum and may or may not choose make room for > >> responsiveness (that was also a point in the Thompson article). Now it > is > >> possible that all my students will, on their own and in their own > >> classrooms, develop substantial notions of rigor and responsiveness, > but it > >> is possible that some might struggle. What experiences might I and > others > >> design to help those that struggle; for instance, what constitutes rigor > >> (one can certainly be under or over rigorous). Likewise, what > constitutes > >> responsiveness (one certainly doesn?t need to talk to be responsive). > Often > >> people such as I do have relations with those, say, in mathematics, > child > >> development, and educational philosophy (among others). But, perhaps you > >> don?t see this as happening in the college classroom, but during > teaching > >> itself. This still raises the interesting question as to what should > occur > >> in the college classroom (although some would just abolish such > classrooms, > >> perhaps understandably). Maybe it is too soon to ask such a question, > but > >> until it is answered in some pragmatic fashion, dumb mathematics > educators > >> such as myself will continue muddle to the benefit of none and, perhaps, > >> detriment of all. > >> > >> Ed Wall > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Dec 1, 2016, at 3:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in regarding > >> other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and science. > >> First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying to > >> suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow ideas > >> about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There are > >> certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s > work at > >> Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s work > at > >> the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and > >> normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young > people in > >> the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math > and > >> science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense > of > >> the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who > utilize > >> the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, > >> questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced ways > of > >> being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means by > >> which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not entirely > sure > >> how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are > >> ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. > >>> STEM Researcher > >>> SRI International > >>> Center for Technology in Learning > >>> > >>> > >>> (650) 859-5262 > >>> Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 > >>> Skype: carrie.allen_9 > >>> > >>> On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of > >> lpscholar2@gmail.com" >> lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a > >> particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. > >>> This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes > >> approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our > >> inquiry. > >>> This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of learning. > >>> > >>> Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be > >> foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. > >>> > >>> > >>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>> > >>> From: Edward Wall > >>> Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>> > >>> Larry > >>> > >>> There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I?m > >> not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics > >>> > >>> 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) > >>> 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a teacher at > >> one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). > >>> 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 > >>> 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the > >> Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the > evidence > >> isn?t clear) > >>> > >>> Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is put > >> off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; > >> however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey > >> recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according to > >> some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this > is a > >> bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling > for > >> the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). > >>> > >>> Ed > >>> > >>>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: > >>>> > >>>> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates > >> (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it possible > we > >> are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or > >> historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation that > were > >> not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or incarnate > >> deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. > >>>> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural imaginaries) > >> that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture well-being? > >>>> > >>>> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>>> > >>>> From: Huw Lloyd > >>>> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>>> > >>>> Alfredo, > >>>> > >>>> Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems > >> inherent > >>>> in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues can be > >>>> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that can > be > >>>> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for > "good > >>>> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real > >> problem > >>>> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like Davydov's > >>>> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". > There > >>>> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important > >>>> implications. > >>>> > >>>> Best, > >>>> Huw > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Huw, > >>>>> > >>>>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, social) > >>>>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the > >> formation > >>>>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all educational > >>>>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather should > be > >>>>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, *pathological* > >> (or > >>>>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and > >>>>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some young > >>>>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was > Mike > >> who > >>>>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question is, > >> will > >>>>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the double > >> bind > >>>>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only include > the > >>>>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a higher > >> order > >>>>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to > grow > >>>>> rather than come to stall). > >>>>> > >>>>> Alfredo > >>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu > >>> > >>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd > >>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 > >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>>>> > >>>>> Alfredo, > >>>>> > >>>>> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is > >> another > >>>>> matter. > >>>>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, because > >> there > >>>>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is > educational > >> -- > >>>>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an Illich > >>>>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it > just > >>>>> takes a different course. > >>>>> > >>>>> Best, > >>>>> Huw > >>>>> > >>>>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates to > >> this > >>>>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to > >>>>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, that > >>>>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between > >> two, > >>>>> not > >>>>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and > >>>>> Phillip's > >>>>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as all > >> we > >>>>> do. > >>>>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have > wonderfully > >>>>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in > maths, > >>>>> but > >>>>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever > that > >>>>> best > >>>>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and context > >> that > >>>>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives > and > >>>>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it so > >> that > >>>>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, > >> according > >>>>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a > >> hollowed-out > >>>>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had > >> illusion > >>>>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities to > >>>>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but > >> also a > >>>>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown in > >>>>> people > >>>>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we > >> have a > >>>>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? Not > >> just > >>>>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> edu> > >>>>>> on behalf of White, Phillip > >>>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>>>>> > >>>>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these > >>>>> examples > >>>>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at where > >> she > >>>>> is > >>>>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a > looking > >>>>> back > >>>>>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then > setting > >> a > >>>>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, > so > >>>>> yeah, > >>>>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of > present > >>>>>> activities to attain future goals. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely on > >>>>> their > >>>>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all > >> about > >>>>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people > >> like me > >>>>>> do. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in > >> this > >>>>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> phillip > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> edu> > >>>>>> on behalf of David Kellogg > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty > >> mental > >>>>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles I > >> have > >>>>> a > >>>>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing > rather > >>>>> than > >>>>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is > >>>>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense of > >> some > >>>>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on tenses, > >> and > >>>>> the > >>>>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in and > >> out > >>>>> of > >>>>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the > way > >>>>> the > >>>>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see > >>>>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at what > >> the > >>>>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this > >> simply > >>>>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take simple > >>>>> present > >>>>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it > >> because > >>>>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the > >>>>> figured > >>>>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is youth? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very > >> much a > >>>>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" you > >>>>> often > >>>>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? > >>>>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to > >> find > >>>>> out > >>>>>> if anybody really cares. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: > >> both > >>>>> the > >>>>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of > >> statistical > >>>>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the > morning > >>>>> after > >>>>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of > those > >>>>> black > >>>>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but > couldn't > >> be > >>>>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class voters" > >> who > >>>>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North > >> Carolina > >>>>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently > knowing > >> how > >>>>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented > as > >>>>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would > be > >>>>> part > >>>>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that > use > >>>>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the > >> impossible > >>>>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times > without > >>>>> any > >>>>>> memory at all). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together you > >>>>> notice > >>>>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your > >>>>> question, > >>>>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend to > >>>>> change > >>>>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On the > >> one > >>>>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too > >> wholly > >>>>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of these > >>>>> moments > >>>>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in > >>>>> itself. > >>>>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and > >> objects > >>>>> in > >>>>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>>> Macquarie University > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD > > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> David, > >>>>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this > topic, > >>>>> but > >>>>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection > between > >>>>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged?interactants > >>>>> view > >>>>>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is > >>>>> largely > >>>>>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians as > >>>>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be > interesting > >>>>> to > >>>>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each > >>>>> other > >>>>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of > >> connecting > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to > >>>>> clarify > >>>>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential > elections, > >>>>> and > >>>>>>> what not. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and Halliday > >> on > >>>>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in > ?basic > >>>>>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has > >> said > >>>>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As > you?d > >>>>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what > he > >>>>>> calls > >>>>>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain > >> is > >>>>>> more > >>>>>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he analyzes > >>>>> tense > >>>>>>> and aspect. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar > has > >> a > >>>>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage > >> based, > >>>>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I > think > >>>>>> there > >>>>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m > not > >>>>>> smart > >>>>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection > must > >>>>> be > >>>>>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? > ethnographers > >>>>> are > >>>>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is > raising > >>>>>> this > >>>>>>> issue. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with > the > >>>>>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that > >> the > >>>>>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may say > >>>>> that > >>>>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school > >> was > >>>>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I got > >> to > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin > >> under > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in > Chapter 8 > >>>>> of > >>>>>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I?ll end it there. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Henry > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Henry: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and > >>>>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the > >>>>>>> different > >>>>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker > somehow > >>>>>> sees > >>>>>>> it > >>>>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space > within > >>>>>>> space). > >>>>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and > >>>>>>> happenings. > >>>>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's > >>>>>>> temporally > >>>>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that > >>>>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either > >>>>> proleptically > >>>>>> or > >>>>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article > we > >>>>>> are > >>>>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three > >>>>> weeks > >>>>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has > been > >>>>>>> (past) > >>>>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me > >>>>> that > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That > is, > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more > >> and > >>>>>>> less > >>>>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example > >> in > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the > >>>>> task > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, > the > >>>>>>> scope, > >>>>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science > identities > >>>>> and > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this > >>>>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed > out a > >>>>>>> little > >>>>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the > damn > >>>>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing > the > >>>>>>> other: > >>>>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some > task > >>>>>> that > >>>>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space > >>>>> and > >>>>>>> not > >>>>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way > you > >>>>>> dig > >>>>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the > >>>>>>> article: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans", > >>>>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP > classes) > >>>>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or > what > >>>>>>> Eckhart > >>>>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', > >>>>>> 'gangbangers') > >>>>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and > what > >>>>>> they > >>>>>>>> think about themselves) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are > >>>>>>> probably > >>>>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really > do > >>>>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). > >> Different > >>>>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of > the > >>>>>>> school > >>>>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers > and > >>>>>>> groups > >>>>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's > >>>>>> always > >>>>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the > >>>>> data > >>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against > what > >>>>> is > >>>>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of > >>>>>>>> intervention is. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured > by > >>>>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that > just > >>>>> an > >>>>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words > (although > >>>>>> maybe > >>>>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds > for > >>>>>>> hope? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own > >>>>>>> *history*, > >>>>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* > >> it > >>>>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances > >> existing > >>>>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of > all > >>>>>> dead > >>>>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living." > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a > >>>>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>>>>> Macquarie University > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD < > hshonerd@gmail.com> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> All, > >>>>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I > >>>>> wanted > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera > John-Steiner > >>>>> and > >>>>>>> her > >>>>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating > Mathematics: > >>>>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers > to > >>>>>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within > >> these > >>>>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and > >>>>> Reuben?s > >>>>>>> book > >>>>>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real (working) > >>>>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we > call > >>>>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching > >> of > >>>>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and > could > >>>>> be > >>>>>>>>> relevant to this discussion. > >>>>>>>>> Henry > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd < > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Dear Margaret > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave > it > >>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous > term > >>>>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments > >> about > >>>>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place > of > >>>>>>>>> identity. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of > >>>>> "model > >>>>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM > subjects > >>>>>> would > >>>>>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with > >>>>> identifying > >>>>>>>>> with > >>>>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to > >> find > >>>>>>> out" > >>>>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is > >>>>>>>>> foregrounded > >>>>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background > >>>>> social > >>>>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at > >> the > >>>>>>> role > >>>>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about > >>>>>>> unknowns. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set > of > >>>>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such > >> that > >>>>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable > within > >>>>>> these > >>>>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with > the > >>>>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Best, > >>>>>>>>>> Huw > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < > >>>>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for > the > >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed > Out.? > >>>>>> We > >>>>>>>>> also > >>>>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream > >> of > >>>>>>>>>>> thinking here! > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas > >> about > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we would > >>>>> like > >>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students > >>>>> were > >>>>>>>>> making > >>>>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them > >>>>>> through > >>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured > >>>>>> worlds > >>>>>>>>> are > >>>>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us > >>>>> reflected > >>>>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty > >>>>> serious > >>>>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what > >>>>> theories > >>>>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of > >>>>> ?exemplars? > >>>>>>> we > >>>>>>>>>>> might turn to. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < > >>>>> lpscholar2@gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably > sens > >>>>> as > >>>>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning > >> and > >>>>>>>>> sense) > >>>>>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. > >>>>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of > (hollowed-out) > >>>>>>> meaning > >>>>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for > >>>>>>> developing a > >>>>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. > >>>>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of > >>>>> social > >>>>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about improving > >>>>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of > the > >>>>>>> study > >>>>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary > >>>>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, > can > >>>>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section > >> (identity-in-context) > >>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured > worlds). > >>>>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of > history-in-person. > >>>>>> That > >>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of > >> person > >>>>>> one > >>>>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. > >>>>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the > >>>>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries > >> (figured > >>>>>>>>> worlds) > >>>>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local > practices > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are > >>>>>>>>> recognized > >>>>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological > >>>>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* > >> to > >>>>>>>>> *what* > >>>>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we > >>>>> take. > >>>>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn > >>>>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper > >> ethical > >>>>>>> turn > >>>>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as > >> well > >>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as > >>>>>> beacons > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the > >>>>> neoliberal > >>>>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from > >>>>> their > >>>>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>> Re-started > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might > send > >>>>>> them > >>>>>>>>>>>> here: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web > >>>>> site > >>>>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to > >> implement. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> mike > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > >>>>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and > >>>>>> Science > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret > >>>>>>> Eisenhart > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so during > >> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I > >> shared > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> link > >>>>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion > to > >> a > >>>>>>> halt > >>>>>>>>>>>>> until > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret > and > >>>>>>> Carrie > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, > but > >> I > >>>>>>> also > >>>>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves > as > >>>>>> soon > >>>>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a > discussion > >>>>> of > >>>>>> an > >>>>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An > >>>>> American > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark > >> day > >>>>>> for > >>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some > >>>>> grounds > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home > >>>>> now, > >>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike > >>>>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of > >>>>> mind" > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> that > >>>>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal > >>>>>>>>>>>>> organisation of > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to > >>>>> Trump's > >>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of > >> everyday > >>>>>>> life. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on > >>>>> women's > >>>>>>>>>>>>> scholar > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to > the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I > >>>>> hope > >>>>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> edu> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of > those > >>>>>>> still > >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins > us > >>>>>> next > >>>>>>>>>>>>> week! > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> edu> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would > be > >>>>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance > at > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade > >>>>> into > >>>>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have > until > >>>>>> next > >>>>>>>>>>>>> week > >>>>>>>>>>>>> to think about it. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to > >>>>> catch > >>>>>>> up! > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> mike > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip > >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that > the > >>>>>> data > >>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was > the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> processes > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the > >>>>>>>>> externally > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study > using > >>>>>>>>>>>>> theories > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your > >>>>>> position. > >>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> you > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if you > >>>>> are > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point > >> (in > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> case > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, > but > >> I > >>>>>>> think > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it > >> could > >>>>>> be > >>>>>>>>>>>>> traced > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the > adult > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? that > >>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>>> narrative > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather > >>>>> could > >>>>>>> be > >>>>>>>>>>>>> traced > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in > >>>>> particular > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american > >>>>> education > >>>>>>>>>>>>> began? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen > >>>>> study, > >>>>>>> what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> phillip > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning > >> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sense. I > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes > >>>>> *direction* > >>>>>>>>>>>>> within > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of > >> depends > >>>>>> on > >>>>>>>>>>>>> where > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you > and > >>>>>> me) > >>>>>>>>>>>>> way of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical > >>>>> ways > >>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>> being > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the > >>>>>> *historical-in-person*. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the > description > >>>>> of > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing > >>>>>> circumstances* > >>>>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article says: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other > >>>>>> Sociocultural > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that > >>>>> is, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> learning > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a > >>>>>> particular > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not stable or > >>>>>> fixed. > >>>>>>>>> As > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too > may > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & > >> Skinner, > >>>>>>>>> 1997). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity > processes > >>>>>> that > >>>>>>>>>>>>> start > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are > *external* > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the > >>>>>> importance > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or > primordially > >>>>> to > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a > gap > >>>>> in > >>>>>>> our > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* > >>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> highly > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in > actual*ity. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, > >>>>>> unsure > >>>>>>>>>>>>> where > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" > >>>>>>> questions > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be > working > >>>>>> on. > >>>>>>> In > >>>>>>>>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a > moment > >>>>>> which > >>>>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big > >>>>>> Bang. > >>>>>>>>> But > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start > >>>>> (the > >>>>>>> Big > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bang > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention > the > >>>>>>> origins > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> life). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just > >>>>>>> thoughtfully > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sent > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper > leaves > >> a > >>>>>>>>> really > >>>>>>>>>>>>> big > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap > is > >>>>>>>>> largely > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, > >>>>> 'identity' > >>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to > be > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sustained." > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good student, > >>>>>> though > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> excitement, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> or > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." > (193) > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm > >>>>>> confident', > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted in > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> context > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, > their > >>>>>>>>>>>>> statements > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for > >>>>>> being > >>>>>>>>>>>>> good > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity > >>>>> characteristics > >>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>> being > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work > quickly, > >>>>> do > >>>>>> it > >>>>>>>>>>>>> without > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." > >>>>> (193) > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by > >>>>>>> society", > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context > >> of > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> figured > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to > go > >>>>>>>>> against > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's > >>>>>> views > >>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that > >> contradicts > >>>>>> my > >>>>>>>>>>>>> data: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the > >>>>>> theory > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also > >>>>> don't > >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I > think > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>>> word > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and > >>>>> engagement > >>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> much > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter > easily, > >>>>> do > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> work > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than > >>>>> others > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> get > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is > >>>>>>> actually > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "I" > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking > >>>>>> about, > >>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation > >>>>> between > >>>>>>>>>>>>> their > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the > activity > >>>>> at > >>>>>>>>> hand > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world > >> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a > good > >>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in > >>>>> both > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and > "you" > >>>>>>>>>>>>> relationship > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I > >>>>> can > >>>>>>> make > >>>>>>>>>>>>> up > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly > >>>>>>>>>>>>> if > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number > and > >>>>> a > >>>>>>>>> class > >>>>>>>>>>>>> over > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the > >>>>>> interpersonal > >>>>>>>>>>>>> somehow > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me > like a > >>>>>>>>> strange > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) > somewhere > >>>>>>> between > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, > but > >> I > >>>>>>> think > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can > >>>>> probably > >>>>>>> find > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to > >>>>>>> (Vygotsky) > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language > at > >>>>>> one > >>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) > the > >>>>>>> moment > >>>>>>>>>>>>> when > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying > >> clauses > >>>>>>> ("I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can > >>>>> pull > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>>> off") > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, > >>>>> which > >>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>>> now > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< > >>>>>> http://www.tandfonline > >>>>>>> . > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful > >>>>> paper > >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), > >>>>>>>>>>>>> we > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret > >>>>>> Eisenhart > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Education > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the > >>>>>> whole > >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie > together > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity > >> in > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after > US > >>>>>>>>>>>>> elections > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link >>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 > >>>>>>>>>>> . > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also attach > it > >>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> PDF. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Confronting the Home Field Disadvantage.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 285774 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161202/bac1f4ff/attachment.pdf From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Dec 2 16:58:13 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 16:58:13 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [Sysfling] Research in Subject-matter Teaching and Learning (RISTAL) In-Reply-To: <355B4266-2DC3-44AE-BA5A-17C1A23E8C96@umich.edu> References: <355B4266-2DC3-44AE-BA5A-17C1A23E8C96@umich.edu> Message-ID: Response in what sense, Ed? Still pondering your questions about rigor and responsiveness. Hope to watch the movie tonight. mike On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 4:09 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > Just got this. It seems that Margaret and Carrie?s paper might be an > appropriate response to this. > > Ed Wall > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > From: Mary Schleppegrell > > Subject: [Sysfling] Fwd: Research in Subject-matter Teaching and > Learning (RISTAL) > > Date: December 2, 2016 at 8:17:30 AM CST > > To: sysfling@cardiff.ac.uk > > > > FYI > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > We wish to announce that the Association for ?Fachdidaktik? (GFD; > www.fachdidaktik.org ) and the University > of Vienna are launching a new scholarly, peer-reviewed journal called > Research in Subject-matter Teaching and Learning (RISTAL; www.ristal.org < > http://www.ristal.org/>). We are currently accepting submissions for the > first issue, which is scheduled to appear in autumn > 2017. > > > > If you would be so kind, please forward this announcement to colleagues > in your field who are interested in fostering comparative perspectives and > a productive exchange of ideas among researchers in subject-matter > education around the world. > > > > You may find further information at www.ristal.org < > http://www.ristal.org/>. > > > > > > Prof. Dr. Martin Rothgangel (editor-in-chief) > > > > > > > > University of Vienna > > Institute for Religious Education > > Schenkenstr. 8-10 > > A-1010 Vienna, Austria > > Tel.: +43-1-4277-32904 > > E-mail: martin.rothgangel@univie.ac.at univie.ac.at> > > Web: etfrp.univie.ac.at > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Mary J. Schleppegrell > > Professor, School of Education > > University of Michigan > > 610 E. University Ave. > > Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1259 > > > > office: 734-647-2449 > > fax: 734-763-1368 > > mjschlep@umich.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sysfling mailing list > > Sysfling@cardiff.ac.uk > > https://mailman.cf.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/sysfling > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Dec 2 17:29:03 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 17:29:03 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_Zavershneva_E=2E_=282014=29=2E_The_problem_of_c?= =?utf-8?q?onsciousness_in_Vygotsky=E2=80=99s=2E=2E=2E_-_Academia?= =?utf-8?q?=2Eedu?= In-Reply-To: <01000158c195f986-0994553e-79da-4e60-b966-5248b67f065d-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <01000158c195f986-0994553e-79da-4e60-b966-5248b67f065d-000000@email.amazonses.com> Message-ID: To those who have not been introduced to her work, this doorway into the work of Ekaterina Zavershena might prove a thought provoking key. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Academia.edu Weekly Digest Date: Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 2:09 PM Subject: Zavershneva E. (2014). The problem of consciousness in Vygotsky?s... - Academia.edu To: lchcmike@gmail.com [image: Academia.edu] *TOP PAPERS FROM YOUR NEWSFEED* [image: Ekaterina Zavershneva] *Ekaterina Zavershneva* Bookmarked by Peter E Jones Zavershneva E. (2014). The problem of consciousness in Vygotsky?s cultural-historical psychology In: Yasnitsky, A., van der Veer, R., & Ferrari, M. (Eds.) // The Cambridge Handbook of Cultural-Historical Psychology. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, 2014. P. 63?100. *Download * *Bookmark * [image: Manolis Dafermos] *Manolis Dafermos* Bookmarked by Peter E Jones Critical Reflection on the Reception of Vygotsky's Theory in the International Academic Communities This paper is an attempt to analyze various types of the reception of Vygotsky's theory in the international academic communities. The paper develops a critical analysis of three widespread theoretical frameworks of interpretation of Vygotsky's theory: cognitivism, culturalism, cultural historical activity theory. It is argues that fragmented readings of particular ideas of Vygotsky, without enough understanding of the theoretical programme in which these ideas have been included dominates in North-Atlantic research. The paper proposes the reconstruction of the theoretical programme of... *Download * *Bookmark * [image: Ekaterina Zavershneva] *Ekaterina Zavershneva* Bookmarked by Peter E Jones ?????????? ?.?. (2015?). ????????????? ? ????????? ???? ? ?????? ???????????? ????????? ?????? ?.?. ?????????? ????????????? ?.?. ?????????? ? ????????? ???? ??????????????? ? ????????? ??? ???????? ? ?. ???????, ?. ??????? ? ?. ???????. ??????? ?????????? ???? ??? ?????????????? ????? ????????? ??????????? ?? ????????? ????????????, ??????????? ??????? ??????? ?.?. ?????????? ? 1932?1935 ??., ?????? ??????? ?????????????? ? ??????? ??????????? ?????????-???????????? ?????????? (???? ???????? ???????, ?????????? ????????????, ?????). ???????????? ?????? ??????? ?????????? ????, ???????? ????? ????? ?????????? ??? ???????? ? ???????, ?????????? ??? ???? ? ???????? ?????????? ???????????? ????????. *Download * *Bookmark * [image: Nikolai Veresov] *Nikolai Veresov* Bookmarked by Joao Batista Martins Irvine, S., Davidson, C., Veresov, N., Adams, M., Devi, A. (2015). Lenses and Lessons: Using three different research perspectives in early childhood education research. Cultural-historical psychology, 11 (3), 75-85. In contemporary Western research, collaboration is held in high esteem. This developing practice is chall lenging particularly for researchers who follow varying theoretical approaches. However although a challengg ing endeavour, when viewing the one data set with different lenses, there are various lessons that can be shared. A key aspect of this paper is involved researchers' different analytical perspectives in one data set to learn more about each other's research insights, rather than become instant expert in other's approaches. The interview data reported in this paper originates from... *Download * *Bookmark * [image: Nikolai Veresov] *Nikolai Veresov* Bookmarked by Joao Batista Martins Barbosa Nasciutti, F., Veresov, N., Falcao de Aragao, A. M. (2016). The group as a source of development: rethinking professional development in a collaborative perspective. Outlines - critical practice studies, 17 (1), 86-108 Since the later decades of the 20 th century, Brazilian psychologists have been questioning a theoretical and interventional model in educational contexts, which consider psychological phenomena apart from their cultural contexts, in order to develop an approach based on a contextualized viewpoint. Despite progress having been made in educational psychology, as a result of this critical paradigm, this area still has problems to overcome: Psychologists are becoming increasingly separate from schools, and it is now common to find psychologists who are professionally unprepared to perform in... *Download * *Bookmark * [image: Nikolai Veresov] *Nikolai Veresov* Bookmarked by Joao Batista Martins Veresov, N. (2015). Experimental-genetic method and the psychology of consciousness: in search of the lost (article 2).Cultural-historical psychology, 11 (1), 117-126, (In Russian). ISSN: 2224-8935 *Download * *Bookmark * [image: Andy Blunden] *Andy Blunden* Bookmarked by Joao Batista Martins An ontology of social life An outline of an ontology of human social life which posits artefacts, actions and activities as the most fundamental kinds of entity which exist, the substrate for norms, ideals and concepts which constitute the subject matter of social theory and philosophy. *Download * *Bookmark * [image: Robert Ricco] *Robert Ricco* California State University, San Bernardino , Psychology , Faculty Member Dual systems competence - procedural processing: A relational developmental systems approach to reasoning Many current psychological models of reasoning minimize the role of deductive processes in human thought. In the present paper, we argue that deduction is an important part of ordinary cognition and we propose that a dual systems competence-procedural processing model conceptualized within relational developmental systems theory offers the most coherent and productive framework for integrating and explaining the sometimes conflicting findings on the development of deductive reasoning across the lifespan. This model invokes a distinction that is quite similar to, though not identical with,... *Download * *Bookmark * [image: Stephen J. Cowley] *Stephen J. Cowley* Bookmarked by Peter E Jones Distributed Language: Using differences to create differences 1 In viewing language as multi-scale coordination , a distributed view challenges central postulates of linguistics. It not only denies that language is essentially 'symbolic' but also that verbal patterns are represented inside minds or brains. Rather, language is, at once, collective, individual and constitutive of the feeling of thinking. It is distributed between us. Those pursuing this view have made two major advances. First, language is traced to, not a neural faculty, but a history of interactivity. Second, humans because humans constantly cope with lack of understanding, they have... *Download * *Bookmark * [image: Michele Filippini] *Michele Filippini* Bookmarked by Colin Barker (english) Using Gramsci: A New Approach, Pluto Press, London-New York, 2016. This is a new approach to one of the greatest political theorists, Antonio Gramsci. Gramsci?s Prison Notebooks are one of the most popular Marxist texts available and continue to inspire readers across the world. In Using Gramsci, Michele Filippini proposes a new approach based on the analysis of previously ignored concepts in his works, creating a book which stands apart. Including chapters on ideology, the individual, collective organisms, society, crisis and temporality, Using Gramsci offers a new pattern in Gramscian studies aimed to speak to the broader audience of social sciences... *Download * *Bookmark * Academia, 251 Kearny St., Suite 520, San Francisco, CA, 94108 Unsubscribe Privacy Policy Terms of Service ? 2016 Academia From ewall@umich.edu Fri Dec 2 17:50:29 2016 From: ewall@umich.edu (Edward Wall) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 19:50:29 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Sysfling] Research in Subject-matter Teaching and Learning (RISTAL) In-Reply-To: References: <355B4266-2DC3-44AE-BA5A-17C1A23E8C96@umich.edu> Message-ID: Mike It would seem that a journal whose focus is truly subject matter teaching and learning would be open to thoughtfully considering what this would look like in other than a neo-libberal curriculum for all the reasons Margaret and Carrie bring up in their paper.I know of a number of people on the editorial board and they are among those with a lot of influence in high school curricula and beyond. Some of them, I think, would appreciate what Margaret and Carrie have to say. Ed > On Dec 2, 2016, at 6:58 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Response in what sense, Ed? > > Still pondering your questions about rigor and responsiveness. > > Hope to watch the movie tonight. > > mike > > > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 4:09 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > >> Just got this. It seems that Margaret and Carrie?s paper might be an >> appropriate response to this. >> >> Ed Wall >> >> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> From: Mary Schleppegrell >>> Subject: [Sysfling] Fwd: Research in Subject-matter Teaching and >> Learning (RISTAL) >>> Date: December 2, 2016 at 8:17:30 AM CST >>> To: sysfling@cardiff.ac.uk >>> >>> FYI >>> >>> Dear colleagues, >>> >>> We wish to announce that the Association for ?Fachdidaktik? (GFD; >> www.fachdidaktik.org ) and the University >> of Vienna are launching a new scholarly, peer-reviewed journal called >> Research in Subject-matter Teaching and Learning (RISTAL; www.ristal.org < >> http://www.ristal.org/>). We are currently accepting submissions for the >> first issue, which is scheduled to appear in autumn >> 2017. >>> >>> If you would be so kind, please forward this announcement to colleagues >> in your field who are interested in fostering comparative perspectives and >> a productive exchange of ideas among researchers in subject-matter >> education around the world. >>> >>> You may find further information at www.ristal.org < >> http://www.ristal.org/>. >>> >>> >>> Prof. Dr. Martin Rothgangel (editor-in-chief) >>> >>> >>> >>> University of Vienna >>> Institute for Religious Education >>> Schenkenstr. 8-10 >>> A-1010 Vienna, Austria >>> Tel.: +43-1-4277-32904 >>> E-mail: martin.rothgangel@univie.ac.at > univie.ac.at> >>> Web: etfrp.univie.ac.at >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Mary J. Schleppegrell >>> Professor, School of Education >>> University of Michigan >>> 610 E. University Ave. >>> Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1259 >>> >>> office: 734-647-2449 >>> fax: 734-763-1368 >>> mjschlep@umich.edu >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sysfling mailing list >>> Sysfling@cardiff.ac.uk >>> https://mailman.cf.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/sysfling >> >> From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Dec 2 19:48:49 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2016 03:48:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Sysfling] Research in Subject-matter Teaching and Learning (RISTAL) In-Reply-To: References: <355B4266-2DC3-44AE-BA5A-17C1A23E8C96@umich.edu> Message-ID: Aha. Got it. I agree. Looks like a great venue for several xmca participants. They declare theie oppeness to multiple approaches, I guess Time will tell. Mike On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 5:52 PM Edward Wall wrote: > Mike > > > > It would seem that a journal whose focus is truly subject matter > teaching and learning would be open to thoughtfully considering what this > would look like in other than a neo-libberal curriculum for all the reasons > Margaret and Carrie bring up in their paper.I know of a number of people on > the editorial board and they are among those with a lot of influence in > high school curricula and beyond. Some of them, I think, would appreciate > what Margaret and Carrie have to say. > > > > Ed > > > > > On Dec 2, 2016, at 6:58 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > Response in what sense, Ed? > > > > > > Still pondering your questions about rigor and responsiveness. > > > > > > Hope to watch the movie tonight. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 4:09 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > > > > > >> Just got this. It seems that Margaret and Carrie?s paper might be an > > >> appropriate response to this. > > >> > > >> Ed Wall > > >> > > >> > > >>> Begin forwarded message: > > >>> > > >>> From: Mary Schleppegrell > > >>> Subject: [Sysfling] Fwd: Research in Subject-matter Teaching and > > >> Learning (RISTAL) > > >>> Date: December 2, 2016 at 8:17:30 AM CST > > >>> To: sysfling@cardiff.ac.uk > > >>> > > >>> FYI > > >>> > > >>> Dear colleagues, > > >>> > > >>> We wish to announce that the Association for ?Fachdidaktik? (GFD; > > >> www.fachdidaktik.org ) and the University > > >> of Vienna are launching a new scholarly, peer-reviewed journal called > > >> Research in Subject-matter Teaching and Learning (RISTAL; > www.ristal.org < > > >> http://www.ristal.org/>). We are currently accepting submissions for > the > > >> first issue, which is scheduled to appear in autumn > > >> 2017. > > >>> > > >>> If you would be so kind, please forward this announcement to colleagues > > >> in your field who are interested in fostering comparative perspectives > and > > >> a productive exchange of ideas among researchers in subject-matter > > >> education around the world. > > >>> > > >>> You may find further information at www.ristal.org < > > >> http://www.ristal.org/>. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Prof. Dr. Martin Rothgangel (editor-in-chief) > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> University of Vienna > > >>> Institute for Religious Education > > >>> Schenkenstr. 8-10 > > >>> A-1010 Vienna, Austria > > >>> Tel.: +43-1-4277-32904 > > >>> E-mail: martin.rothgangel@univie.ac.at > >> univie.ac.at> > > >>> Web: etfrp.univie.ac.at > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> Mary J. Schleppegrell > > >>> Professor, School of Education > > >>> University of Michigan > > >>> 610 E. University Ave. > > >>> Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1259 > > >>> > > >>> office: 734-647-2449 > > >>> fax: 734-763-1368 > > >>> mjschlep@umich.edu > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Sysfling mailing list > > >>> Sysfling@cardiff.ac.uk > > >>> https://mailman.cf.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/sysfling > > >> > > >> > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Dec 3 06:09:06 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 06:09:06 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no> References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com>, <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no>, <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no>, <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com>, <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <5842d21a.0370630a.6214.05f6@mx.google.com> Phillip, Alfredo, and others focused on Zuckerman?s article which orients and moves us to transition to the concept of intermental learning collaboration all the way down. Is her model (inherently) neoliberal or is her model being *put* in the service of the neoliberal? The model she presents of layers and merging of layers that may be put in the service of more dialogical intermental education as learning collaboration. A key term is *able to learn* and on page 23 & 24 she unpacks what this means: In her words ? when learning goes beyond *infecting* someone an ability the way that toddlers learn to talk, dress, and play. (LP -layer 2 the imitative) Here is Zuckerman?s explication of going beyond layer 2 as merger or fusion with layer 4 that is developing: ? Teachers are also needed by learners so that, on the boundary between learning and doing, between orientation and doing, learners can be (held back) in a state of orientation and not allowed to pursue a result (LP ? end) without paying attention to the way that result is being (attained). Teachers have only one demand: For children to clarify in their own minds whether or not they have assimilated the (means) of action or need to continue their learning. In other words the focus of joint learner-teacher action (LP -intermental) is the boundary of the learner?s competence and the means for *crossing* that boundary (LP ? together). Learning to go beyond the boundary of one?s own capabilities, beyond the boundary of a particular situation ? THAT IS the meaning of being *able to learn* This model of being able to learn may be put in the service of neoliberalism. However is that inherently so? My turn is up. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 2, 2016 3:40 PM To: White, Phillip; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Phillip, interesting thoughts. ?Made me think of my ongoing experience at an elementary school (below). I also felt uneasy in the way Zukerman phrased some aspects of teaching/learning, and most of all, I did not understand why she talked about students learning, but not about teachers learning: teachers do also learn and develop (change!) in and through teaching/learning situations (and become better or worse teachers). But there is something concerning "compliance" that I do not get from your argument. You say that in Galina's examples, "children are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate" ... and then I wonder, is not this inherent to any educational situation? This is certainly what happens in many homes, including my own. Indeed, deeming something appropriate seems to be necessary to be able to decide what kind of education we want, right? Or should we deem as inappropriate that people expect other people to do what they feel/believe is appropriate? But yes, another question is, what type of relations do we want to engage into, what culture do we want?. After all, if the model is science (which in Zukerman's case, who follows Davydov, seems to be), is not science the product of the same (increasingly globalised) history from which neoliberalism, comunism or putinism also are products? I am everyday working as an assistant in an arts-based elementary school here in Canada and I witness and participate in enforcing practicesm that have very little to do with the progressist ideas explicitly endorsed by the school. Even though I do not want to part-take in them, it really takes a lot of work to break free from the inertia of the tasks, which are (unawarely) designed so as to require enforcement. It is a very visceral situation, being there with kids I love, and yet finding myself doing precisely what I do not want to do. I am caught in the situation. What do I need to do to break from it? I think first is the work of becoming aware not only of the fact, but the conditions that sustain the fact: the task. Next, I guess I have to realise that changing myself as an educator requires changing the tasks. We are currently working on a reflective process in which I hope to bring awareness and change to the whole staff. Does this process resemble science? Alfredo ________________________________ From: White, Phillip Sent: 03 December 2016 00:00 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" everyone - having read Zukerman's paper on how young school children learn to learn, it seems to me that the teaching strategies she promotes will not come close to alleviating the problem of neoliberalism and the hollowing out of students. as stated on page 2, "... schoolchildren must to able to compute, read, write, and, by the way, learn. This occurred in the late 1970's in the face of one in a series of technological revolutions confronting manufacturers with a new need for lifelong training." so there is the core proleptic goal of neoliberal education - students are to be educated to meet the needs of business. in my own experience of teaching - from kindergarten to graduate school - the child who is described as an independent learner is actually a compliant child. and certainly in Zukerman's examples, these children are also learning to be compliant - they are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate for the classroom. in point of fact, the last elementary school i was in for fifteen years - 2001 - 2016 - the type of teaching and questioning strategies promoted by Zukerman were practiced in every classroom. and teachers were explicitly evaluated on how close them came to a rather common mantra: Never do for a child that she can do herself. and, yes, all answers elicited through open questions were written so that all could see, and then analysed and evaluated by the students. as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning and social practices, at core there is always an ideology. here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to authority. phillip ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 8:26 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, The resonance of your answer is harmonic with my question and feels so gestating and co-generative. Learning collaboration as joint action leading [orienting receptively] to freedom in the opening of future joint action [all the way down]. Mastering one?s *relations* TO OTHERS is achieved [an ability Zukerman would say] by becoming subject AND SUBJECTING TO those relations. At the heart of our inquiries is *relations* in their polyphonic manifestations. What has just occurred here and now as an example [an exemplar?] of being carried along by the *subject matter* developing what *we* mean. Con/vivial - con/verse/ation - all the way down. MITSEIN as well-being-in-the-world- WITH- others [abbreviated or shortened to *well-being* An original and very appealing view/image on WHAT independence, or BECOMING an independent learner - means I feel heard and inspired and grateful in this spirit [value?] of friendship and fellowship unfolding in the back and forth across perspectives Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 9:40 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, how accepted one view on Vygotsky is, is something many others in this list know better than me. When I began reading Vygotsky, many here had already bee studying his original works for 30 years... I know, however, that it is easy to simplify matters one way or another. It is quite common, for example, to find published papers where Vygotskian concepts are used in ways that effectively reify cognitivist views that cognitive science itself has been trying to get rid off for long time now. Perhaps the question is not so much about how accepted a version of a legacy is, and perhaps less so how accurate that version is with the original intention, but how generative this version is for whatever we find useful pursuing. A view where joint action leads to freedom in the generation of future joint action (the turtles all the way down), and not independently of it, seems to me more promising than other versions. Although many things in this article are surely debatable, it certainly offers an original and appealing view on what independence, or becoming and independent learner means. Vygotskian historians have noted that Vygotsky often referred to Bacon's aphorism "natura parendo vincitur"... In G.Zuckerman's article, mastering one's relation to others is achieved by becoming subject and subjecting to those relations. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 02 December 2016 04:37 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, How accepted is this perspective of the Vygotskian legacy as being (intermental) through and through? The metaphor (turtles all the way down) comes to mind? This perspective opens up the ideal or the possible of learning collaboration as involving a spectrum or a layering of developmental periods that emphasize a (merging quality) but emphasizes that all the periods continue to be alive and animated. This includes the original receptivity marking the infants gestures, and imitation, and play/imaginal and learning activity as all active ingredients creating the personality. To later become reflective and acquire some degree of volition over these earlier more primordial deeper layers/spectrum of merged abilities as secondary phenomena of learning collaboration seems to occur as a derivative experience (after the experience of merger). Opens up the question of central lines for further inquiry in the back and forth. This term (intermental) seems to be a key notion for opening locked doors Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 4:19 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, this way of articulating a Vygotskian approach to learning as NOT something that simply first is external and that then becomes internal, is one of the things that most attracted me from this paper. The competences and cognitive functions that Galina describes are intermental through and through, even when she talks of a "happy end" where the competence to initiate collaboration is interiorized. This resonates quite well with an argument that Michael R. and myself have been advancing recently referring to the inter-intrasubjectivity (see e.g., MCA perezhivanie issue), although critical readers will note that we advance the argument in a way much more metaphorical than Galina's reported experiments (and being metaphorical is a fair critique, though being so may also be a good way to move forward to new concrete research programs). Another thing I like is that the article raises a question of distinguishing (or not) between relations of learner and a skilled person (may we say, an apprenticeship?) on the one hand, and between learner and *teacher* on the other. An advantage of this approach is that it allows tracing those genetic lines of development that are specific to teaching (teaching/learning) situations of the kind western schools and middle class parents sometimes exercise exhibiting and generating expectations of learning to think and solve problems independently. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 01 December 2016 21:21 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, Since you opened a new thread for the Zukerman article -in particular ? I will highlight a central question from page 17 that is organizing the article for the reader?s ability to respond. The last paragraph on page 17 opens with: Just what is learning collaboration? The answer given: It can be (understood) in two ways. It can be seen as a sort of scaffolding temporarily needed for mental development ? until children aquire the ability to apply scientific concepts INDEPENDENTLY, to frame and solve problems demanding theoretical thinking without the help of a teacher. However, learning collaboration can also be (interpreted) not as an ancillary developmental tool, not as an EXTERNAL removable support created in the course of building the mental ediface, but as an important part of this ediface, as A VALUABLE ABILITY ESSENTIAL TO HUMANS AT ANY POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE. It is this 2nd version of (learning collaboration) as a valuable (intermental ability) that continues and is universal, that this paper is highlighting for our further inquiry into Just what is learning collaboration? As an aspect of answering, Just what is education? A four way back and forth co-generation of genetic phenomenology Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: December 1, 2016 8:09 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to learn (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active force in learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the concepts (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky school: 1) As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out with the help of an adult, it is NOT independent 2) People can independently bring about collaborative (intermental action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist within the Vygotsky school. To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. As Zackerman says: Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the adult disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and purpose. The key question shifts to become: What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY structure (intermental) action. I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School exploration of developmental paths. Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration of others. Note that both alternatives are offering the key to answering -what is education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into this open question Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an educationbe?" Alfredo, ? WHAT is education. This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing stream. On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of (intermental) collaboration. Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of intermental collaboration. Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to *endure*. What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving adult as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a thing of inherent value. THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school age). So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next period emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and *enduring* form of collaboration. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education be?" Hi all, I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue 3 lead article. ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal reading of 3 articles: Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's reading of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, has to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most importantly, ?the question is also about what education could instead be as possibility, as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are necessary: we need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as much as we need a notion of what a good education could be. Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading for the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I think we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article (recently mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition brings in is, in my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for connecting the two questions posed above, the one on the facts of education and the one on possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter question on possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability to learn is. She writes: "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what abilities children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular developmental potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm in childhood development" Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and the desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are *educability* and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies in the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for many reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on age that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses the connection between communication and generalization, a connection that became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and generalization, in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the "internalisation" way of languaging it). The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. Alfredo From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Dec 3 07:42:13 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 07:42:13 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: <1480631001028.60427@iped.uio.no> References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com>, <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> <1480631001028.60427@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <5842e7ee.9807620a.c90cd.18ea@mx.google.com> Alfredo, You mentioned becoming a subject of learning is to become (subjected to) as a relational notion. Ed adds the component of (subject matter) and the focus (orientation) toward rigor. So three term: Being/becoming a subject of learning Being/becoming subjected to learning Being/becoming *involved* (immersed) and carried along by the subject matter. Now the term *rigor* seems close to developing *resolute* orientations towards a subject matter and becoming subject to the subject matter. However play as a layer merging or fusing has a different relation to (subject matter) that may not be so *resolute* and still continues to have subjects be subjected to the subject matter through imaginal intermental (means). To acquire *rigor* in and for a subject matter may require being (carried away intermentally within the play of the subject matter). Loosing one?s self WITHIN the subject matter playfully on the way to acquiring rigor. The elements of attachment (layer 1) imitation (layer 2) and play (layer 3) as ONGOING factors/aspects within porous fluid dynamic permeable layers. This puts in question the meaning of the word *central* line as overtaking earlier more primordial, lines. A more fluid and open orientation of (means) of engagement through joint action within intermental learning collaboration. Attachment, imitation, and play remaining animated *through* intermental ongoing joint action leading to joint action in a new key Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 2:28 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started Thanks Carrie for contributing. In Spanish we say "mejor tarde que nunca." I take the freedom, and in case we had not yet enough papers to read, of attaching an article by Angela Calabrese Barton, since you mention her work as an example. W-M Roth, who co-supervised my PhD thesis, often referred me to her when writing for/thinking about science education. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of carrie.allen@sri.com Sent: 01 December 2016 22:19 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started Hi all, Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in regarding other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and science. First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying to suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow ideas about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There are certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s work at Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s work at the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young people in the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who utilize the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced ways of being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means by which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not entirely sure how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. -- CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. STEM Researcher SRI International Center for Technology in Learning (650) 859-5262 Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 Skype: carrie.allen_9 On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com" wrote: So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our inquiry. This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of learning. Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Edward Wall Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started Larry There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I?m not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a teacher at one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the evidence isn?t clear) Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is put off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according to some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this is a bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling for the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). Ed > On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: > > The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it possible we are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation that were not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or incarnate deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. > If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural imaginaries) that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture well-being? > > Exemplary models that point in a certain direction > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Huw Lloyd > Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > > Alfredo, > > Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems inherent > in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues can be > transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that can be > achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for "good > behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real problem > solving. For "real" education, we would need something like Davydov's > system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". There > are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important > implications. > > Best, > Huw > > > > On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > >> Huw, >> >> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, social) >> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the formation >> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all educational >> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather should be >> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, *pathological* (or >> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and >> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some young >> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was Mike who >> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question is, will >> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the double bind >> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only include the >> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a higher order >> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to grow >> rather than come to stall). >> >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Huw Lloyd >> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >> >> Alfredo, >> >> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is another >> matter. >> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, because there >> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is educational -- >> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an Illich >> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it just >> takes a different course. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >> >>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates to this >>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to >>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, that >>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between two, >> not >>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and >> Phillip's >>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as all we >> do. >>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have wonderfully >>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in maths, >> but >>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever that >> best >>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and context that >>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives and >>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it so that >>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, according >>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a hollowed-out >>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had illusion >>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities to >>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but also a >>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown in >> people >>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we have a >>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? Not just >>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. >>> >>> Alfredo >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of White, Phillip >>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>> >>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these >> examples >>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at where she >> is >>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a looking >> back >>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then setting a >>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, so >> yeah, >>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of present >>> activities to attain future goals. >>> >>> >>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you". >>> >>> >>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely on >> their >>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all about >>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people like me >>> do. >>> >>> >>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in this >>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. >>> >>> >>> phillip >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of David Kellogg >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>> >>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty mental >>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles I have >> a >>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing rather >> than >>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is >>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense of some >>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on tenses, and >> the >>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in and out >> of >>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. >>> >>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the way >> the >>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see >>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at what the >>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this simply >>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take simple >> present >>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it because >>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the >> figured >>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is youth? >>> >>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very much a >>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" you >> often >>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". >>> >>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? >>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to find >> out >>> if anybody really cares. >>> >>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: both >> the >>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of statistical >>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the morning >> after >>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of those >> black >>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but couldn't be >>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class voters" who >>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North Carolina >>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently knowing how >>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented as >>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would be >> part >>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that use >>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the impossible >>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times without >> any >>> memory at all). >>> >>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together you >> notice >>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your >> question, >>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend to >> change >>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On the one >>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too wholly >>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of these >> moments >>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in >> itself. >>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and objects >> in >>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Macquarie University >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>> wrote: >>> >>>> David, >>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this topic, >> but >>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection between >>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged?interactants >> view >>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is >> largely >>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians as >>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be interesting >> to >>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each >> other >>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of connecting >>> the >>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to >> clarify >>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential elections, >> and >>>> what not. >>>> >>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and Halliday on >>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in ?basic >>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has said >>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As you?d >>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what he >>> calls >>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain is >>> more >>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he analyzes >> tense >>>> and aspect. >>>> >>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar has a >>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage based, >>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I think >>> there >>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m not >>> smart >>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection must >> be >>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? ethnographers >> are >>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is raising >>> this >>>> issue. >>>> >>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with the >>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that the >>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may say >> that >>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school was >>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I got to >>> the >>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin under >>> the >>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in Chapter 8 >> of >>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. >>>> >>>> I?ll end it there. >>>> >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Henry: >>>>> >>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and >>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the >>>> different >>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker somehow >>> sees >>>> it >>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space within >>>> space). >>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and >>>> happenings. >>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's >>>> temporally >>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that >>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either >> proleptically >>> or >>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article we >>> are >>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three >> weeks >>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into >> the >>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has been >>>> (past) >>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. >>>>> >>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me >> that >>>> the >>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That is, >> the >>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more and >>>> less >>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example in >>>> this >>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the >> task >>>> of >>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, the >>>> scope, >>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science identities >> and >>>> the >>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this >>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed out a >>>> little >>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the damn >>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing the >>>> other: >>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some task >>> that >>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space >> and >>>> not >>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way you >>> dig >>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. >>>>> >>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the >>>> article: >>>>> >>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans", >>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP classes) >>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or what >>>> Eckhart >>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', >>> 'gangbangers') >>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and what >>> they >>>>> think about themselves) >>>>> >>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are >>>> probably >>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really do >>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). Different >>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of the >>>> school >>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers and >>>> groups >>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's >>> always >>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the >> data >>>> is >>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against what >> is >>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of >>>>> intervention is. >>>>> >>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured by >>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that just >> an >>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words (although >>> maybe >>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds for >>>> hope? >>>>> >>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own >>>> *history*, >>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* it >>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances existing >>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of all >>> dead >>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living." >>>>> >>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a >>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Macquarie University >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> All, >>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I >> wanted >>>> to >>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera John-Steiner >> and >>>> her >>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating Mathematics: >>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers to >>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within these >>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and >> Reuben?s >>>> book >>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real (working) >>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we call >>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching of >>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and could >> be >>>>>> relevant to this discussion. >>>>>> Henry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Margaret >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave it >> to >>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous term >>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments about >>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place of >>>>>> identity. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of >> "model >>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM subjects >>> would >>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with >> identifying >>>>>> with >>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to find >>>> out" >>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is >>>>>> foregrounded >>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background >> social >>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at the >>>> role >>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about >>>> unknowns. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set of >>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such that >>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable within >>> these >>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with the >>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < >>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for the >>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed Out.? >>> We >>>>>> also >>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream of >>>>>>>> thinking here! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas about >>> the >>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we would >> like >>> to >>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students >> were >>>>>> making >>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them >>> through >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured >>> worlds >>>>>> are >>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us >> reflected >>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty >> serious >>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what >> theories >>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of >> ?exemplars? >>>> we >>>>>>>> might turn to. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < >> lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably sens >> as >>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning and >>>>>> sense) >>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. >>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of (hollowed-out) >>>> meaning >>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for >>>> developing a >>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. >>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of >> social >>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about improving >>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of the >>>> study >>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary >>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, can >>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section (identity-in-context) >>> to >>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured worlds). >>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of history-in-person. >>> That >>>> is >>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of person >>> one >>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. >>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the >>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries (figured >>>>>> worlds) >>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local practices >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially and >>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are >>>>>> recognized >>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological >>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* to >>>>>> *what* >>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we >> take. >>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn >>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper ethical >>>> turn >>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. >>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as well >>> as >>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as >>> beacons >>>> of >>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the >> neoliberal >>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from >> their >>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From: mike cole >>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM >>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >> Re-started >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might send >>> them >>>>>>>>> here: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web >> site >>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to implement. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < >>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and >>> Science >>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret >>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so during the >>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I shared >>> the >>>>>>>>>> link >>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion to a >>>> halt >>>>>>>>>> until >>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret and >>>> Carrie >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, but I >>>> also >>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves as >>> soon >>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a discussion >> of >>> an >>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An >> American >>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" >>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark day >>> for >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some >> grounds >>>> for >>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home >> now, >>>> as >>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of >> mind" >>>> and >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal >>>>>>>>>> organisation of >>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to >> Trump's >>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of everyday >>>> life. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on >> women's >>>>>>>>>> scholar >>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to the >>>>>>>>>> discussions >>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I >> hope >>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 >>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of those >>>> still >>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins us >>> next >>>>>>>>>> week! >>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole >>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 >>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would be >>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance at >> the >>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade >> into >>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have until >>> next >>>>>>>>>> week >>>>>>>>>> to think about it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to >> catch >>>> up! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that the >>> data >>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was the >>>>>>>>>> processes >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the >>>>>> externally >>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study using >>>>>>>>>> theories >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your >>> position. >>>> as >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if you >> are >>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point (in >>> the >>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the >>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I >>>> think >>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it could >>> be >>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the adult >>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? that >> this >>>>>>>>>> narrative >>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather >> could >>>> be >>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in >> particular >>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american >> education >>>>>>>>>> began? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen >> study, >>>> what >>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, >>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow >>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning and >>>>>>>>>> sense. I >>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes >> *direction* >>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of depends >>> on >>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. >>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you and >>> me) >>>>>>>>>> way of >>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical >> ways >>> of >>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the >>> *historical-in-person*. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the description >> of >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing >>> circumstances* >>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The article says: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other >>> Sociocultural >>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that >> is, >>>>>>>>>> learning >>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a >>> particular >>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not stable or >>> fixed. >>>>>> As >>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too may >>> the >>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & Skinner, >>>>>> 1997). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity processes >>> that >>>>>>>>>> start >>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are *external* >>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the >>> importance >>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or primordially >> to >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a gap >> in >>>> our >>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* >> and >>>>>>>>>> highly >>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in actual*ity. >>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the >>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, >>> unsure >>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" >>>> questions >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be working >>> on. >>>> In >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a moment >>> which >>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big >>> Bang. >>>>>> But >>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start >> (the >>>> Big >>>>>>>>>> Bang >>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention the >>>> origins >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> life). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just >>>> thoughtfully >>>>>>>>>> sent >>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper leaves a >>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>> big >>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap is >>>>>> largely >>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, >> 'identity' >>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to be >>>>>>>>>> sustained." >>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good student, >>> though >>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest, >>>>>>>>>> excitement, >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." (193) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm >>> confident', >>>>>>>>>> 'I'm >>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted in >> the >>>>>>>>>> context >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, their >>>>>>>>>> statements >>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for >>> being >>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity >> characteristics >>> of >>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, >> do >>> it >>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." >> (193) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by >>>> society", >>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context of >>> the >>>>>>>>>> figured >>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to go >>>>>> against >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's >>> views >>>> as >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that contradicts >>> my >>>>>>>>>> data: >>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the >>> theory >>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also >> don't >>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I think >> the >>>>>> word >>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and >> engagement >>>> as >>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter easily, >> do >>>> the >>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than >> others >>>> and >>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is >>>> actually >>>>>>>>>> "I" >>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking >>> about, >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation >> between >>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the activity >> at >>>>>> hand >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world of >>>>>>>>>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a good >>>>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in >> both >>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky >>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a >>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and "you" >>>>>>>>>> relationship >>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I >> can >>>> make >>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, >>>>>>>>>> particularly >>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number and >> a >>>>>> class >>>>>>>>>> over >>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the >>> interpersonal >>>>>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me like a >>>>>> strange >>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) somewhere >>>> between >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I >>>> think >>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can >> probably >>>> find >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the >>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to >>>> (Vygotsky) >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language at >>> one >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) the >>>> moment >>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying clauses >>>> ("I'm >>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can >> pull >>>> this >>>>>>>>>> off") >>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, >> which >>> is >>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< >>> http://www.tandfonline >>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful >> paper >>>>>>>>>> (which >>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and >>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret >>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science >>>>>>>>>> Education >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the >>> whole >>>>>>>>>> issue, >>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie together >>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity in >>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> case). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after US >>>>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). >>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I >>>>>>>>>>>> share the link>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also attach it >> as >>>>>>>>>> PDF. >>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Sat Dec 3 09:08:02 2016 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 17:08:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: <5842d21a.0370630a.6214.05f6@mx.google.com> References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com>, <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no>, <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no>, <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com>, <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no>, <5842d21a.0370630a.6214.05f6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: dear all - it was not my intention to suggest that the model for teaching is in itself neoliberal, but rather the author's stated goal for my these teaching strategies are necessary. check out Foucault's "Discipline and Punish", particularly the section on disciplined bodies. but no, this model is not inherently so. like all tools, it can be used for different goals. a hammer can be used to construct the frame of a house, or commit murder. phillip ________________________________ From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 7:09:06 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; White, Phillip; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Phillip, Alfredo, and others focused on Zuckerman?s article which orients and moves us to transition to the concept of intermental learning collaboration all the way down. Is her model (inherently) neoliberal or is her model being *put* in the service of the neoliberal? The model she presents of layers and merging of layers that may be put in the service of more dialogical intermental education as learning collaboration. A key term is *able to learn* and on page 23 & 24 she unpacks what this means: In her words ? when learning goes beyond *infecting* someone an ability the way that toddlers learn to talk, dress, and play. (LP -layer 2 the imitative) Here is Zuckerman?s explication of going beyond layer 2 as merger or fusion with layer 4 that is developing: ? Teachers are also needed by learners so that, on the boundary between learning and doing, between orientation and doing, learners can be (held back) in a state of orientation and not allowed to pursue a result (LP ? end) without paying attention to the way that result is being (attained). Teachers have only one demand: For children to clarify in their own minds whether or not they have assimilated the (means) of action or need to continue their learning. In other words the focus of joint learner-teacher action (LP -intermental) is the boundary of the learner?s competence and the means for *crossing* that boundary (LP ? together). Learning to go beyond the boundary of one?s own capabilities, beyond the boundary of a particular situation ? THAT IS the meaning of being *able to learn* This model of being able to learn may be put in the service of neoliberalism. However is that inherently so? My turn is up. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 2, 2016 3:40 PM To: White, Phillip; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Phillip, interesting thoughts. ?Made me think of my ongoing experience at an elementary school (below). I also felt uneasy in the way Zukerman phrased some aspects of teaching/learning, and most of all, I did not understand why she talked about students learning, but not about teachers learning: teachers do also learn and develop (change!) in and through teaching/learning situations (and become better or worse teachers). But there is something concerning "compliance" that I do not get from your argument. You say that in Galina's examples, "children are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate" ... and then I wonder, is not this inherent to any educational situation? This is certainly what happens in many homes, including my own. Indeed, deeming something appropriate seems to be necessary to be able to decide what kind of education we want, right? Or should we deem as inappropriate that people expect other people to do what they feel/believe is appropriate? But yes, another question is, what type of relations do we want to engage into, what culture do we want?. After all, if the model is science (which in Zukerman's case, who follows Davydov, seems to be), is not science the product of the same (increasingly globalised) history from which neoliberalism, comunism or putinism also are products? I am everyday working as an assistant in an arts-based elementary school here in Canada and I witness and participate in enforcing practicesm that have very little to do with the progressist ideas explicitly endorsed by the school. Even though I do not want to part-take in them, it really takes a lot of work to break free from the inertia of the tasks, which are (unawarely) designed so as to require enforcement. It is a very visceral situation, being there with kids I love, and yet finding myself doing precisely what I do not want to do. I am caught in the situation. What do I need to do to break from it? I think first is the work of becoming aware not only of the fact, but the conditions that sustain the fact: the task. Next, I guess I have to realise that changing myself as an educator requires changing the tasks. We are currently working on a reflective process in which I hope to bring awareness and change to the whole staff. Does this process resemble science? Alfredo ________________________________ From: White, Phillip Sent: 03 December 2016 00:00 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" everyone - having read Zukerman's paper on how young school children learn to learn, it seems to me that the teaching strategies she promotes will not come close to alleviating the problem of neoliberalism and the hollowing out of students. as stated on page 2, "... schoolchildren must to able to compute, read, write, and, by the way, learn. This occurred in the late 1970's in the face of one in a series of technological revolutions confronting manufacturers with a new need for lifelong training." so there is the core proleptic goal of neoliberal education - students are to be educated to meet the needs of business. in my own experience of teaching - from kindergarten to graduate school - the child who is described as an independent learner is actually a compliant child. and certainly in Zukerman's examples, these children are also learning to be compliant - they are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate for the classroom. in point of fact, the last elementary school i was in for fifteen years - 2001 - 2016 - the type of teaching and questioning strategies promoted by Zukerman were practiced in every classroom. and teachers were explicitly evaluated on how close them came to a rather common mantra: Never do for a child that she can do herself. and, yes, all answers elicited through open questions were written so that all could see, and then analysed and evaluated by the students. as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning and social practices, at core there is always an ideology. here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to authority. phillip ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 8:26 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, The resonance of your answer is harmonic with my question and feels so gestating and co-generative. Learning collaboration as joint action leading [orienting receptively] to freedom in the opening of future joint action [all the way down]. Mastering one?s *relations* TO OTHERS is achieved [an ability Zukerman would say] by becoming subject AND SUBJECTING TO those relations. At the heart of our inquiries is *relations* in their polyphonic manifestations. What has just occurred here and now as an example [an exemplar?] of being carried along by the *subject matter* developing what *we* mean. Con/vivial - con/verse/ation - all the way down. MITSEIN as well-being-in-the-world- WITH- others [abbreviated or shortened to *well-being* An original and very appealing view/image on WHAT independence, or BECOMING an independent learner - means I feel heard and inspired and grateful in this spirit [value?] of friendship and fellowship unfolding in the back and forth across perspectives Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 9:40 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, how accepted one view on Vygotsky is, is something many others in this list know better than me. When I began reading Vygotsky, many here had already bee studying his original works for 30 years... I know, however, that it is easy to simplify matters one way or another. It is quite common, for example, to find published papers where Vygotskian concepts are used in ways that effectively reify cognitivist views that cognitive science itself has been trying to get rid off for long time now. Perhaps the question is not so much about how accepted a version of a legacy is, and perhaps less so how accurate that version is with the original intention, but how generative this version is for whatever we find useful pursuing. A view where joint action leads to freedom in the generation of future joint action (the turtles all the way down), and not independently of it, seems to me more promising than other versions. Although many things in this article are surely debatable, it certainly offers an original and appealing view on what independence, or becoming and independent learner means. Vygotskian historians have noted that Vygotsky often referred to Bacon's aphorism "natura parendo vincitur"... In G.Zuckerman's article, mastering one's relation to others is achieved by becoming subject and subjecting to those relations. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 02 December 2016 04:37 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, How accepted is this perspective of the Vygotskian legacy as being (intermental) through and through? The metaphor (turtles all the way down) comes to mind? This perspective opens up the ideal or the possible of learning collaboration as involving a spectrum or a layering of developmental periods that emphasize a (merging quality) but emphasizes that all the periods continue to be alive and animated. This includes the original receptivity marking the infants gestures, and imitation, and play/imaginal and learning activity as all active ingredients creating the personality. To later become reflective and acquire some degree of volition over these earlier more primordial deeper layers/spectrum of merged abilities as secondary phenomena of learning collaboration seems to occur as a derivative experience (after the experience of merger). Opens up the question of central lines for further inquiry in the back and forth. This term (intermental) seems to be a key notion for opening locked doors Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 4:19 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, this way of articulating a Vygotskian approach to learning as NOT something that simply first is external and that then becomes internal, is one of the things that most attracted me from this paper. The competences and cognitive functions that Galina describes are intermental through and through, even when she talks of a "happy end" where the competence to initiate collaboration is interiorized. This resonates quite well with an argument that Michael R. and myself have been advancing recently referring to the inter-intrasubjectivity (see e.g., MCA perezhivanie issue), although critical readers will note that we advance the argument in a way much more metaphorical than Galina's reported experiments (and being metaphorical is a fair critique, though being so may also be a good way to move forward to new concrete research programs). Another thing I like is that the article raises a question of distinguishing (or not) between relations of learner and a skilled person (may we say, an apprenticeship?) on the one hand, and between learner and *teacher* on the other. An advantage of this approach is that it allows tracing those genetic lines of development that are specific to teaching (teaching/learning) situations of the kind western schools and middle class parents sometimes exercise exhibiting and generating expectations of learning to think and solve problems independently. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 01 December 2016 21:21 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, Since you opened a new thread for the Zukerman article -in particular ? I will highlight a central question from page 17 that is organizing the article for the reader?s ability to respond. The last paragraph on page 17 opens with: Just what is learning collaboration? The answer given: It can be (understood) in two ways. It can be seen as a sort of scaffolding temporarily needed for mental development ? until children aquire the ability to apply scientific concepts INDEPENDENTLY, to frame and solve problems demanding theoretical thinking without the help of a teacher. However, learning collaboration can also be (interpreted) not as an ancillary developmental tool, not as an EXTERNAL removable support created in the course of building the mental ediface, but as an important part of this ediface, as A VALUABLE ABILITY ESSENTIAL TO HUMANS AT ANY POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE. It is this 2nd version of (learning collaboration) as a valuable (intermental ability) that continues and is universal, that this paper is highlighting for our further inquiry into Just what is learning collaboration? As an aspect of answering, Just what is education? A four way back and forth co-generation of genetic phenomenology Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: December 1, 2016 8:09 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to learn (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active force in learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the concepts (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky school: 1) As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out with the help of an adult, it is NOT independent 2) People can independently bring about collaborative (intermental action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist within the Vygotsky school. To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. As Zackerman says: Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the adult disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and purpose. The key question shifts to become: What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY structure (intermental) action. I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School exploration of developmental paths. Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration of others. Note that both alternatives are offering the key to answering -what is education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into this open question Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an educationbe?" Alfredo, ? WHAT is education. This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing stream. On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of (intermental) collaboration. Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of intermental collaboration. Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to *endure*. What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving adult as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a thing of inherent value. THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school age). So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next period emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and *enduring* form of collaboration. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education be?" Hi all, I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue 3 lead article. ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal reading of 3 articles: Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's reading of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, has to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most importantly, ?the question is also about what education could instead be as possibility, as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are necessary: we need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as much as we need a notion of what a good education could be. Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading for the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I think we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article (recently mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition brings in is, in my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for connecting the two questions posed above, the one on the facts of education and the one on possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter question on possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability to learn is. She writes: "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what abilities children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular developmental potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm in childhood development" Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and the desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are *educability* and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies in the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for many reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on age that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses the connection between communication and generalization, a connection that became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and generalization, in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the "internalisation" way of languaging it). The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. 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/*++*++-(3023)-*++*++/ cologique termsconditions ngel 4dbe typo3temp 43ec linktop ______@@@***+++++>>>++++ 15mm autriche bty 2f29 landingpages 16h00 462a NEWSCLICK lancement lightlink deuteronomy CRF PostTable vareN Cucamonga 4af6 Reisezeitraum ***--///++--**++*-*+$S05****---+++*///--/++-*$ zodiaco ingenier fundraisers sekund 89010 SOUSTITRE ficiant rhoncus habra m4y onglet angleterre inshop partag cristobal simp presumed monarch From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Sat Dec 3 11:43:23 2016 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 19:43:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no> References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com>, <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no>, <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no>, <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com>, , <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Alfred - yes, absolutely children are expected to demonstrated behaviours elicited by the teachers. that's the core structure of all institutions, authorities expect demonstrations of their goals, regardless of ideology. i think that we practitioner of CHAT too easily forget the historical aspects of activity theory. people can only do what they know how to do - and what they know how to do is often what is the deep structure of 'hidden curriculums', which are found in all cultural activities. hence revolutions eat their young, and the return to stability is a practice of the old ways wrapped in a new vocabulary that supports the new authorities. deep change is highly incremental. yes, classrooms don't appear to be the same as classrooms of one hundred years ago, much less two hundred years ago. however, remember that Harvard was founded to educate those destined for the clergy, the judiciary and the mercantile class. phillip ________________________________ From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 4:34:44 PM To: White, Phillip; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Phillip, interesting thoughts. ?Made me think of my ongoing experience at an elementary school (below). I also felt uneasy in the way Zukerman phrased some aspects of teaching/learning, and most of all, I did not understand why she talked about students learning, but not about teachers learning: teachers do also learn and develop (change!) in and through teaching/learning situations (and become better or worse teachers). But there is something concerning "compliance" that I do not get from your argument. You say that in Galina's examples, "children are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate" ... and then I wonder, is not this inherent to any educational situation? This is certainly what happens in many homes, including my own. Indeed, deeming something appropriate seems to be necessary to be able to decide what kind of education we want, right? Or should we deem as inappropriate that people expect other people to do what they feel/believe is appropriate? But yes, another question is, what type of relations do we want to engage into, what culture do we want?. After all, if the model is science (which in Zukerman's case, who follows Davydov, seems to be), is not science the product of the same (increasingly globalised) history from which neoliberalism, comunism or putinism also are products? I am everyday working as an assistant in an arts-based elementary school here in Canada and I witness and participate in enforcing practicesm that have very little to do with the progressist ideas explicitly endorsed by the school. Even though I do not want to part-take in them, it really takes a lot of work to break free from the inertia of the tasks, which are (unawarely) designed so as to require enforcement. It is a very visceral situation, being there with kids I love, and yet finding myself doing precisely what I do not want to do. I am caught in the situation. What do I need to do to break from it? I think first is the work of becoming aware not only of the fact, but the conditions that sustain the fact: the task. Next, I guess I have to realise that changing myself as an educator requires changing the tasks. We are currently working on a reflective process in which I hope to bring awareness and change to the whole staff. Does this process resemble science? Alfredo ________________________________ From: White, Phillip Sent: 03 December 2016 00:00 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" everyone - having read Zukerman's paper on how young school children learn to learn, it seems to me that the teaching strategies she promotes will not come close to alleviating the problem of neoliberalism and the hollowing out of students. as stated on page 2, "... schoolchildren must to able to compute, read, write, and, by the way, learn. This occurred in the late 1970's in the face of one in a series of technological revolutions confronting manufacturers with a new need for lifelong training." so there is the core proleptic goal of neoliberal education - students are to be educated to meet the needs of business. in my own experience of teaching - from kindergarten to graduate school - the child who is described as an independent learner is actually a compliant child. and certainly in Zukerman's examples, these children are also learning to be compliant - they are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate for the classroom. in point of fact, the last elementary school i was in for fifteen years - 2001 - 2016 - the type of teaching and questioning strategies promoted by Zukerman were practiced in every classroom. and teachers were explicitly evaluated on how close them came to a rather common mantra: Never do for a child that she can do herself. and, yes, all answers elicited through open questions were written so that all could see, and then analysed and evaluated by the students. as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning and social practices, at core there is always an ideology. here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to authority. phillip ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 8:26 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, The resonance of your answer is harmonic with my question and feels so gestating and co-generative. Learning collaboration as joint action leading [orienting receptively] to freedom in the opening of future joint action [all the way down]. Mastering one?s *relations* TO OTHERS is achieved [an ability Zukerman would say] by becoming subject AND SUBJECTING TO those relations. At the heart of our inquiries is *relations* in their polyphonic manifestations. What has just occurred here and now as an example [an exemplar?] of being carried along by the *subject matter* developing what *we* mean. Con/vivial - con/verse/ation - all the way down. MITSEIN as well-being-in-the-world- WITH- others [abbreviated or shortened to *well-being* An original and very appealing view/image on WHAT independence, or BECOMING an independent learner - means I feel heard and inspired and grateful in this spirit [value?] of friendship and fellowship unfolding in the back and forth across perspectives Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 9:40 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, how accepted one view on Vygotsky is, is something many others in this list know better than me. When I began reading Vygotsky, many here had already bee studying his original works for 30 years... I know, however, that it is easy to simplify matters one way or another. It is quite common, for example, to find published papers where Vygotskian concepts are used in ways that effectively reify cognitivist views that cognitive science itself has been trying to get rid off for long time now. Perhaps the question is not so much about how accepted a version of a legacy is, and perhaps less so how accurate that version is with the original intention, but how generative this version is for whatever we find useful pursuing. A view where joint action leads to freedom in the generation of future joint action (the turtles all the way down), and not independently of it, seems to me more promising than other versions. Although many things in this article are surely debatable, it certainly offers an original and appealing view on what independence, or becoming and independent learner means. Vygotskian historians have noted that Vygotsky often referred to Bacon's aphorism "natura parendo vincitur"... In G.Zuckerman's article, mastering one's relation to others is achieved by becoming subject and subjecting to those relations. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 02 December 2016 04:37 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, How accepted is this perspective of the Vygotskian legacy as being (intermental) through and through? The metaphor (turtles all the way down) comes to mind? This perspective opens up the ideal or the possible of learning collaboration as involving a spectrum or a layering of developmental periods that emphasize a (merging quality) but emphasizes that all the periods continue to be alive and animated. This includes the original receptivity marking the infants gestures, and imitation, and play/imaginal and learning activity as all active ingredients creating the personality. To later become reflective and acquire some degree of volition over these earlier more primordial deeper layers/spectrum of merged abilities as secondary phenomena of learning collaboration seems to occur as a derivative experience (after the experience of merger). Opens up the question of central lines for further inquiry in the back and forth. This term (intermental) seems to be a key notion for opening locked doors Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 4:19 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, this way of articulating a Vygotskian approach to learning as NOT something that simply first is external and that then becomes internal, is one of the things that most attracted me from this paper. The competences and cognitive functions that Galina describes are intermental through and through, even when she talks of a "happy end" where the competence to initiate collaboration is interiorized. This resonates quite well with an argument that Michael R. and myself have been advancing recently referring to the inter-intrasubjectivity (see e.g., MCA perezhivanie issue), although critical readers will note that we advance the argument in a way much more metaphorical than Galina's reported experiments (and being metaphorical is a fair critique, though being so may also be a good way to move forward to new concrete research programs). Another thing I like is that the article raises a question of distinguishing (or not) between relations of learner and a skilled person (may we say, an apprenticeship?) on the one hand, and between learner and *teacher* on the other. An advantage of this approach is that it allows tracing those genetic lines of development that are specific to teaching (teaching/learning) situations of the kind western schools and middle class parents sometimes exercise exhibiting and generating expectations of learning to think and solve problems independently. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 01 December 2016 21:21 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, Since you opened a new thread for the Zukerman article -in particular ? I will highlight a central question from page 17 that is organizing the article for the reader?s ability to respond. The last paragraph on page 17 opens with: Just what is learning collaboration? The answer given: It can be (understood) in two ways. It can be seen as a sort of scaffolding temporarily needed for mental development ? until children aquire the ability to apply scientific concepts INDEPENDENTLY, to frame and solve problems demanding theoretical thinking without the help of a teacher. However, learning collaboration can also be (interpreted) not as an ancillary developmental tool, not as an EXTERNAL removable support created in the course of building the mental ediface, but as an important part of this ediface, as A VALUABLE ABILITY ESSENTIAL TO HUMANS AT ANY POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE. It is this 2nd version of (learning collaboration) as a valuable (intermental ability) that continues and is universal, that this paper is highlighting for our further inquiry into Just what is learning collaboration? As an aspect of answering, Just what is education? A four way back and forth co-generation of genetic phenomenology Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: December 1, 2016 8:09 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to learn (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active force in learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the concepts (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky school: 1) As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out with the help of an adult, it is NOT independent 2) People can independently bring about collaborative (intermental action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist within the Vygotsky school. To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. As Zackerman says: Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the adult disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and purpose. The key question shifts to become: What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY structure (intermental) action. I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School exploration of developmental paths. Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration of others. Note that both alternatives are offering the key to answering -what is education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into this open question Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an educationbe?" Alfredo, ? WHAT is education. This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing stream. On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of (intermental) collaboration. Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of intermental collaboration. Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to *endure*. What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving adult as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a thing of inherent value. THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school age). So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next period emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and *enduring* form of collaboration. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education be?" Hi all, I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue 3 lead article. ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal reading of 3 articles: Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's reading of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, has to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most importantly, ?the question is also about what education could instead be as possibility, as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are necessary: we need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as much as we need a notion of what a good education could be. Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading for the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I think we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article (recently mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition brings in is, in my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for connecting the two questions posed above, the one on the facts of education and the one on possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter question on possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability to learn is. She writes: "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what abilities children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular developmental potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm in childhood development" Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and the desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are *educability* and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies in the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for many reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on age that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses the connection between communication and generalization, a connection that became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and generalization, in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the "internalisation" way of languaging it). The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. Alfredo From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Dec 3 12:23:03 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 12:23:03 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what wouldaneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com>, <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no>, <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no>, <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com>, <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no>, <5842d21a.0370630a.6214.05f6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <584329bf.02c4620a.5fcc6.3dd6@mx.google.com> Phillip, I recently came across a reference to Foucault saying that the relational movement back and forth occurs between (tradition and oblivion). With Mike?s reference to Benjamin?s angel looking back at history and being blown toward what can feel like oblivion, there is still the image of the angel between. This movement/transition seems to express powerful currents in which the angel seems transfixed. Is Foucault saying the answer lies in moving between tradition and oblivion and not becoming transfixed in either polarity? Each in the other? Resuming the Zuckerman focus on (able to learn through learning collaboration). She is positing the virtue of a teacher whose relation to a learner is to (hold back) the learner from moving to an end product and refocus on orientating to (the means) necessary for boundary crossing. The means are intermental. (mitsein). Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: White, Phillip Sent: December 3, 2016 9:08 AM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what wouldaneducationbe?" dear all ?- ?it was not my intention to suggest that the model for teaching is in itself neoliberal, but rather the author's stated goal for my these teaching strategies are necessary. check out Foucault's "Discipline and Punish", particularly the section on disciplined bodies. ? but no, this model is not inherently so. ? like all tools, it can be used for different goals. ?a hammer can be used to construct the frame of a house, or commit murder. phillip From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 7:09:06 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; White, Phillip; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" ? Phillip, Alfredo, and others focused on Zuckerman?s article which orients and moves us to transition to the concept of intermental learning collaboration all the way down. Is her model (inherently) neoliberal or is her model being *put* in the service of the neoliberal? The model she presents ?of layers and merging of layers that may be put in the service of more dialogical intermental education as learning collaboration. A key term is *able to learn* and on page 23 & 24 she unpacks what this means: In her words ? when learning goes beyond *infecting* someone an ability the way that toddlers learn to talk, dress, and play. (LP -layer 2 the imitative) Here is Zuckerman?s explication of going beyond layer 2 as merger or fusion with layer 4 that is developing: ? Teachers ?are also needed by learners so that, on ?the boundary between learning and doing, between orientation and doing, learners can be (held back) in a state of orientation and not allowed to pursue a result (LP ? end) without paying attention to the way that result is being (attained). Teachers have only one demand: For children to clarify in their own minds whether or not they have assimilated the (means) of action or need to continue their learning. In other words the focus of joint learner-teacher action (LP -intermental) is the boundary of the learner?s competence and the means for *crossing* that boundary (LP ? together). Learning to go beyond the boundary of one?s own capabilities, beyond the boundary of a particular situation ? THAT IS the meaning of being *able to learn* This model of being able to learn may be put in the service of neoliberalism. However is that inherently so? My turn is up. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 2, 2016 3:40 PM To: White, Phillip; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Phillip, interesting thoughts. ?Made me think of my ongoing experience at an elementary school (below). I also felt uneasy in the way Zukerman phrased some aspects of teaching/learning, and most of all, I did not understand why she talked about students learning, but not about teachers learning: teachers do also learn and develop (change!) in and through teaching/learning situations (and become better or worse teachers). But there is something concerning "compliance" that I do not get from your argument. You say that in Galina's examples, "children are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate"? ... and then I wonder, is not this inherent to any educational situation? This is certainly what happens in many homes, including my own. Indeed, deeming something appropriate seems to be necessary to be able to decide what kind of education we want, right? Or should we deem as inappropriate that people expect other people to do what they feel/believe is appropriate? But yes, another question is, what type of relations do we want to engage into, what culture do we want?. After all, if the model is science (which in Zukerman's case, who follows Davydov, seems to be), is not science the product of the same (increasingly globalised) history from which neoliberalism, comunism or putinism also are products? I am everyday working as an assistant in an arts-based elementary school here in Canada and I witness and participate in enforcing practicesm that have very little to do with the progressist ideas explicitly endorsed by the school. Even though I do not want to part-take in them, it really takes a lot of work to break free from the inertia of the tasks, which are (unawarely) designed so as to require enforcement. It is a very visceral situation, being there with kids I love, and yet finding myself doing precisely what I do not want to do. I am caught in the situation. What do I need to do to break from it? I think first is the work of becoming aware not only of the fact, but the conditions that sustain the fact: the task. Next, I guess I have to realise that changing myself as an educator requires changing the tasks. We are currently working on a reflective process in which I hope to bring awareness and change to the whole staff. Does this process resemble science? Alfredo ________________________________ From: White, Phillip Sent: 03 December 2016 00:00 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" everyone? -? having read Zukerman's paper on how young school children learn to learn, it seems to me that the teaching strategies she promotes will not come close to alleviating the problem of neoliberalism and the hollowing out of students.? as stated on page 2, "... schoolchildren must to able to compute, read, write, and, by the way, learn.? This occurred in the late 1970's in the face of one in a series of technological revolutions confronting manufacturers with a new need for lifelong training." so there is the core proleptic goal of neoliberal education - students are to be educated to meet the needs of business. in my own experience of teaching - from kindergarten to graduate school - the child who is described as an independent learner is actually a compliant child.? and certainly in Zukerman's examples, these children are also learning to be compliant - they are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate for the classroom. in point of fact, the last elementary school i was in for fifteen years - 2001 - 2016 - the type of teaching and questioning strategies promoted by Zukerman were practiced in every classroom.? and teachers were explicitly evaluated on how close them came to a rather common mantra: Never do for a child that she can do herself.? and, yes, all answers elicited through open questions were written so that all could see, and then analysed and evaluated by the students. as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning and social practices, at core there is always an ideology. here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to authority. phillip ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 8:26 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, The resonance of your answer is harmonic with my question and feels so gestating and co-generative. Learning collaboration as joint action leading [orienting receptively] to freedom in the opening of future joint action [all the way down]. Mastering one?s *relations* TO OTHERS is achieved [an ability Zukerman would say]? by becoming subject AND SUBJECTING TO those relations. At the heart of our inquiries is *relations* in their polyphonic manifestations. What has just occurred here and now as an example [an exemplar?] of being carried along by the *subject matter* developing what *we* mean. Con/vivial? -? con/verse/ation?? - all the way down. MITSEIN as well-being-in-the-world- WITH- others [abbreviated or shortened to *well-being* An original and very appealing view/image on WHAT independence, or BECOMING an independent learner - means I feel heard and inspired and grateful in this spirit [value?] of friendship and fellowship unfolding in the back and forth across perspectives Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 9:40 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, how accepted one view on Vygotsky is, is something many others in this list know better than me. When I began reading Vygotsky, many here had already bee studying his original works for 30 years... I know, however, that it is easy to simplify matters one way or another. It is quite common, for example, to find published papers where Vygotskian concepts are used in ways that effectively reify cognitivist views that cognitive science itself has been trying to get rid off for long time now. Perhaps the question is not so much about how accepted a version of a legacy is, and perhaps less so how accurate that version is with the original intention, but how generative this version is for whatever we find useful pursuing. A view where joint action leads to freedom in the generation of future joint action (the turtles all the way down), and not independently of it, seems to me more promising than other versions. Although many things in this article are surely debatable, it certainly offers an original and appealing view on what independence, or becoming and independent learner means. Vygotskian historians have noted that Vygotsky often referred to Bacon's aphorism "natura parendo vincitur"... In G.Zuckerman's article, mastering one's relation to others is achieved by becoming subject and subjecting to those relations. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 02 December 2016 04:37 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, How accepted is this perspective of the Vygotskian legacy as being (intermental) through and through? The metaphor (turtles all the way down) comes to mind? This perspective opens up the ideal or the possible of learning collaboration as involving a spectrum or a layering of developmental periods that emphasize a (merging quality) but emphasizes that all the periods continue to be alive and animated. This includes the original receptivity marking the infants gestures, and imitation, and play/imaginal and learning activity as all active? ingredients creating the personality. To later become reflective and acquire some degree of volition over these earlier? more primordial deeper layers/spectrum of merged abilities as secondary phenomena of? learning collaboration seems to occur as a derivative experience (after the experience of merger). Opens up the question of central lines for further inquiry in the back and forth. This term (intermental) seems to be a key notion for opening locked doors Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 4:19 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, this way of articulating a Vygotskian approach to learning as NOT something that simply first is external and that then becomes internal, is one of the things that most attracted me from this paper. The competences and cognitive functions that Galina describes are intermental through and through, even when she talks of a "happy end" where the competence to initiate collaboration is interiorized. This resonates quite well with an argument that Michael R. and myself have been advancing recently referring to the inter-intrasubjectivity (see e.g., MCA perezhivanie issue), although critical readers will note that we advance the argument in a way much more metaphorical than Galina's reported experiments (and being metaphorical is a fair critique, though being so may? also be a good way to move forward to new concrete research programs). Another thing I like is that the article raises a question of distinguishing (or not) between relations of learner and a skilled person (may we say, an apprenticeship?) on the one hand, and between learner and *teacher* on the other. An advantage of this approach is that it allows tracing those genetic lines of development that are specific to teaching (teaching/learning) situations of the kind western schools and middle class parents sometimes exercise exhibiting and generating expectations of learning to think and solve problems independently. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 01 December 2016 21:21 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, Since you opened a new thread for the Zukerman article -in particular ? I will highlight? a central question from page 17 that is organizing the article for the reader?s ability to respond. The last paragraph on page 17 opens with: Just what is learning collaboration? The answer given: It can be (understood) in two ways. It can be seen as a sort of scaffolding temporarily needed for mental development ? until children aquire the ability to apply scientific concepts INDEPENDENTLY, to frame and solve problems demanding theoretical thinking without the help of a teacher. However, learning collaboration can also be (interpreted) not as an ancillary developmental tool, not as an EXTERNAL removable support created in the course of building the mental ediface, but as an important part of this ediface, as? A VALUABLE ABILITY ESSENTIAL TO HUMANS AT ANY POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE. It is this 2nd version of (learning collaboration) as a valuable (intermental ability) that continues and is universal, that this paper is highlighting for our further inquiry into Just what is learning collaboration? As an aspect of answering, Just what is education? A four way back and forth co-generation of genetic phenomenology Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: December 1, 2016 8:09 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to learn (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active force in learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the concepts (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky school: 1)????? As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out with the help of an adult, it is NOT independent 2)????? People can independently bring about? collaborative (intermental action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist within the Vygotsky school. To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. As Zackerman says: Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the adult disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and purpose. The key question shifts to become: What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY structure (intermental) action. I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School exploration of developmental paths. Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration of others. Note that both alternatives? are offering the key to answering -what is education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into this open question Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an educationbe?" Alfredo, ? WHAT is education. This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing stream. On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of (intermental) collaboration. Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of intermental collaboration. Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to *endure*. What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving adult as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a thing of inherent value. THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school age). So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next period emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and *enduring* form of collaboration. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education be?" Hi all, I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue 3 lead article. ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal reading of 3 articles:? Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's reading of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, has to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most importantly, ?the question is also about what education could instead be as possibility, as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are necessary: we need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as much as we need a notion of what a good education could be. Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading for the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I think we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article (recently mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition brings in is, in my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for connecting the two questions posed above, the one on the facts of education and the one on possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter question on possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability to learn is. She writes: "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what abilities children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular developmental potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm in childhood development" Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and the desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are *educability* and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies in the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for many reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on age that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses the connection between communication and generalization, a connection that became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and generalization, in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the "internalisation" way of languaging it). The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. Alfredo -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DB2302417F184EF2A25C14133C65283C.png Type: image/png Size: 234 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161203/7cbd41b3/attachment.png From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Sat Dec 3 15:24:40 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 23:24:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com>, <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no>, <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no>, <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com>, , <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no>, Message-ID: <1480807479742.14918@iped.uio.no> Harvard was founded to educate the clergy, great point! Thanks! Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of White, Phillip Sent: 03 December 2016 20:43 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfred - yes, absolutely children are expected to demonstrated behaviours elicited by the teachers. that's the core structure of all institutions, authorities expect demonstrations of their goals, regardless of ideology. i think that we practitioner of CHAT too easily forget the historical aspects of activity theory. people can only do what they know how to do - and what they know how to do is often what is the deep structure of 'hidden curriculums', which are found in all cultural activities. hence revolutions eat their young, and the return to stability is a practice of the old ways wrapped in a new vocabulary that supports the new authorities. deep change is highly incremental. yes, classrooms don't appear to be the same as classrooms of one hundred years ago, much less two hundred years ago. however, remember that Harvard was founded to educate those destined for the clergy, the judiciary and the mercantile class. phillip ________________________________ From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 4:34:44 PM To: White, Phillip; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Phillip, interesting thoughts. ?Made me think of my ongoing experience at an elementary school (below). I also felt uneasy in the way Zukerman phrased some aspects of teaching/learning, and most of all, I did not understand why she talked about students learning, but not about teachers learning: teachers do also learn and develop (change!) in and through teaching/learning situations (and become better or worse teachers). But there is something concerning "compliance" that I do not get from your argument. You say that in Galina's examples, "children are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate" ... and then I wonder, is not this inherent to any educational situation? This is certainly what happens in many homes, including my own. Indeed, deeming something appropriate seems to be necessary to be able to decide what kind of education we want, right? Or should we deem as inappropriate that people expect other people to do what they feel/believe is appropriate? But yes, another question is, what type of relations do we want to engage into, what culture do we want?. After all, if the model is science (which in Zukerman's case, who follows Davydov, seems to be), is not science the product of the same (increasingly globalised) history from which neoliberalism, comunism or putinism also are products? I am everyday working as an assistant in an arts-based elementary school here in Canada and I witness and participate in enforcing practicesm that have very little to do with the progressist ideas explicitly endorsed by the school. Even though I do not want to part-take in them, it really takes a lot of work to break free from the inertia of the tasks, which are (unawarely) designed so as to require enforcement. It is a very visceral situation, being there with kids I love, and yet finding myself doing precisely what I do not want to do. I am caught in the situation. What do I need to do to break from it? I think first is the work of becoming aware not only of the fact, but the conditions that sustain the fact: the task. Next, I guess I have to realise that changing myself as an educator requires changing the tasks. We are currently working on a reflective process in which I hope to bring awareness and change to the whole staff. Does this process resemble science? Alfredo ________________________________ From: White, Phillip Sent: 03 December 2016 00:00 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" everyone - having read Zukerman's paper on how young school children learn to learn, it seems to me that the teaching strategies she promotes will not come close to alleviating the problem of neoliberalism and the hollowing out of students. as stated on page 2, "... schoolchildren must to able to compute, read, write, and, by the way, learn. This occurred in the late 1970's in the face of one in a series of technological revolutions confronting manufacturers with a new need for lifelong training." so there is the core proleptic goal of neoliberal education - students are to be educated to meet the needs of business. in my own experience of teaching - from kindergarten to graduate school - the child who is described as an independent learner is actually a compliant child. and certainly in Zukerman's examples, these children are also learning to be compliant - they are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate for the classroom. in point of fact, the last elementary school i was in for fifteen years - 2001 - 2016 - the type of teaching and questioning strategies promoted by Zukerman were practiced in every classroom. and teachers were explicitly evaluated on how close them came to a rather common mantra: Never do for a child that she can do herself. and, yes, all answers elicited through open questions were written so that all could see, and then analysed and evaluated by the students. as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning and social practices, at core there is always an ideology. here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to authority. phillip ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 8:26 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, The resonance of your answer is harmonic with my question and feels so gestating and co-generative. Learning collaboration as joint action leading [orienting receptively] to freedom in the opening of future joint action [all the way down]. Mastering one?s *relations* TO OTHERS is achieved [an ability Zukerman would say] by becoming subject AND SUBJECTING TO those relations. At the heart of our inquiries is *relations* in their polyphonic manifestations. What has just occurred here and now as an example [an exemplar?] of being carried along by the *subject matter* developing what *we* mean. Con/vivial - con/verse/ation - all the way down. MITSEIN as well-being-in-the-world- WITH- others [abbreviated or shortened to *well-being* An original and very appealing view/image on WHAT independence, or BECOMING an independent learner - means I feel heard and inspired and grateful in this spirit [value?] of friendship and fellowship unfolding in the back and forth across perspectives Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 9:40 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, how accepted one view on Vygotsky is, is something many others in this list know better than me. When I began reading Vygotsky, many here had already bee studying his original works for 30 years... I know, however, that it is easy to simplify matters one way or another. It is quite common, for example, to find published papers where Vygotskian concepts are used in ways that effectively reify cognitivist views that cognitive science itself has been trying to get rid off for long time now. Perhaps the question is not so much about how accepted a version of a legacy is, and perhaps less so how accurate that version is with the original intention, but how generative this version is for whatever we find useful pursuing. A view where joint action leads to freedom in the generation of future joint action (the turtles all the way down), and not independently of it, seems to me more promising than other versions. Although many things in this article are surely debatable, it certainly offers an original and appealing view on what independence, or becoming and independent learner means. Vygotskian historians have noted that Vygotsky often referred to Bacon's aphorism "natura parendo vincitur"... In G.Zuckerman's article, mastering one's relation to others is achieved by becoming subject and subjecting to those relations. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 02 December 2016 04:37 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, How accepted is this perspective of the Vygotskian legacy as being (intermental) through and through? The metaphor (turtles all the way down) comes to mind? This perspective opens up the ideal or the possible of learning collaboration as involving a spectrum or a layering of developmental periods that emphasize a (merging quality) but emphasizes that all the periods continue to be alive and animated. This includes the original receptivity marking the infants gestures, and imitation, and play/imaginal and learning activity as all active ingredients creating the personality. To later become reflective and acquire some degree of volition over these earlier more primordial deeper layers/spectrum of merged abilities as secondary phenomena of learning collaboration seems to occur as a derivative experience (after the experience of merger). Opens up the question of central lines for further inquiry in the back and forth. This term (intermental) seems to be a key notion for opening locked doors Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 4:19 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, this way of articulating a Vygotskian approach to learning as NOT something that simply first is external and that then becomes internal, is one of the things that most attracted me from this paper. The competences and cognitive functions that Galina describes are intermental through and through, even when she talks of a "happy end" where the competence to initiate collaboration is interiorized. This resonates quite well with an argument that Michael R. and myself have been advancing recently referring to the inter-intrasubjectivity (see e.g., MCA perezhivanie issue), although critical readers will note that we advance the argument in a way much more metaphorical than Galina's reported experiments (and being metaphorical is a fair critique, though being so may also be a good way to move forward to new concrete research programs). Another thing I like is that the article raises a question of distinguishing (or not) between relations of learner and a skilled person (may we say, an apprenticeship?) on the one hand, and between learner and *teacher* on the other. An advantage of this approach is that it allows tracing those genetic lines of development that are specific to teaching (teaching/learning) situations of the kind western schools and middle class parents sometimes exercise exhibiting and generating expectations of learning to think and solve problems independently. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 01 December 2016 21:21 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, Since you opened a new thread for the Zukerman article -in particular ? I will highlight a central question from page 17 that is organizing the article for the reader?s ability to respond. The last paragraph on page 17 opens with: Just what is learning collaboration? The answer given: It can be (understood) in two ways. It can be seen as a sort of scaffolding temporarily needed for mental development ? until children aquire the ability to apply scientific concepts INDEPENDENTLY, to frame and solve problems demanding theoretical thinking without the help of a teacher. However, learning collaboration can also be (interpreted) not as an ancillary developmental tool, not as an EXTERNAL removable support created in the course of building the mental ediface, but as an important part of this ediface, as A VALUABLE ABILITY ESSENTIAL TO HUMANS AT ANY POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE. It is this 2nd version of (learning collaboration) as a valuable (intermental ability) that continues and is universal, that this paper is highlighting for our further inquiry into Just what is learning collaboration? As an aspect of answering, Just what is education? A four way back and forth co-generation of genetic phenomenology Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: December 1, 2016 8:09 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to learn (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active force in learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the concepts (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky school: 1) As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out with the help of an adult, it is NOT independent 2) People can independently bring about collaborative (intermental action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist within the Vygotsky school. To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. As Zackerman says: Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the adult disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and purpose. The key question shifts to become: What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY structure (intermental) action. I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School exploration of developmental paths. Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration of others. Note that both alternatives are offering the key to answering -what is education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into this open question Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an educationbe?" Alfredo, ? WHAT is education. This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing stream. On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of (intermental) collaboration. Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of intermental collaboration. Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to *endure*. What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving adult as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a thing of inherent value. THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school age). So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next period emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and *enduring* form of collaboration. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education be?" Hi all, I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue 3 lead article. ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal reading of 3 articles: Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's reading of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, has to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most importantly, ?the question is also about what education could instead be as possibility, as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are necessary: we need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as much as we need a notion of what a good education could be. Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading for the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I think we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article (recently mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition brings in is, in my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for connecting the two questions posed above, the one on the facts of education and the one on possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter question on possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability to learn is. She writes: "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what abilities children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular developmental potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm in childhood development" Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and the desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are *educability* and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies in the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for many reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on age that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses the connection between communication and generalization, a connection that became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and generalization, in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the "internalisation" way of languaging it). The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. Alfredo From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Dec 3 15:52:15 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 15:52:15 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: <1480807479742.14918@iped.uio.no> References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com> <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no> <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no> <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com> <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no> <1480807479742.14918@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: ????????? ?? ? ???????, ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ??-?????????, ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??-????????? ?? ???? ??? ???, ?? ?? ?????????? ???????? ?????????, ?? ??????? ???? ????? ????. ? ???? ?????? ??-?????? ????? ??????, ?? ? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????????? ??????? ??-?? ??? ?????, ??????????? ?? ??????? ? ?????? ??????? Velham. ???? ????????? ???????????, ??????? ?? ????? ?? ??????, ????? ???????? ??. ???? ??, ?? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ?????, ? ? ?????? ??? ?????????, ????? ???????? ?? ???????. ?????????? ????? ????? ????? ??????????, ?? ? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ??????? ???????????? ??? ?? ???????? ???????? ????????. ?? ?????? ??????. ?? ??????? ????, ?? ??????????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ??????? ?????. (? ???? ?? ??????? ????? ? ??????? Google Translate, ??????? ?????? ?????????? ??????? ??????). ?? ????? ?? ?????????? ???????????? ? ???????? ??????????? ? ????????? ???????, ??? ??? ????????. ???? ? ??? ???? PDF ??????????? ???????, ?? ????? ?? ?? ????????? ???? ? ????, ????? ????????? ????????????? ???? ? ????????? ??????. ??? ?????? ???? ? ???????? !! (in English it reads like this): Galya- Do I understand correctly that you can READ English, but it is very difficult for you to WRITE English?? If that is the case, there is no real difficulty at least between us. I can read Russian pretty well, but I am used to writing it only in latin letters because of all the time spent on communication as part of the Velham project. There are some comments you might want to respond to. If so, send your response to me in Russian and I will do my best to get them translated. The discussion could become very interesting, but also it could become too difficult to maintain or evoke no interest. We will have to see. At least feel free always to write to me in Russian. (I am writing in Russian via google translate which is doing a reasonably good job). You might try using in reverse and lets see how it works. If you have a PDF of the Russian publication, could you send it? I want to check word usage in some places. How nice to be in contact!! Warmest regards, mike On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Harvard was founded to educate the clergy, great point! Thanks! > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of White, Phillip > Sent: 03 December 2016 20:43 > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would > aneducationbe?" > > Alfred - yes, absolutely children are expected to demonstrated behaviours > elicited by the teachers. that's the core structure of all institutions, > authorities expect demonstrations of their goals, regardless of ideology. > > > i think that we practitioner of CHAT too easily forget the historical > aspects of activity theory. people can only do what they know how to do - > and what they know how to do is often what is the deep structure of 'hidden > curriculums', which are found in all cultural activities. hence > revolutions eat their young, and the return to stability is a practice of > the old ways wrapped in a new vocabulary that supports the new authorities. > > > deep change is highly incremental. yes, classrooms don't appear to be the > same as classrooms of one hundred years ago, much less two hundred years > ago. however, remember that Harvard was founded to educate those destined > for the clergy, the judiciary and the mercantile class. > > > phillip > > ________________________________ > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 4:34:44 PM > To: White, Phillip; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would > aneducationbe?" > > > Phillip, interesting thoughts. ?Made me think of my ongoing experience at > an elementary school (below). > > > I also felt uneasy in the way Zukerman phrased some aspects of > teaching/learning, and most of all, I did not understand why she talked > about students learning, but not about teachers learning: teachers do also > learn and develop (change!) in and through teaching/learning situations > (and become better or worse teachers). But there is something concerning > "compliance" that I do not get from your argument. You say that in Galina's > examples, "children are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that > the teacher deems appropriate" ... and then I wonder, is not this inherent > to any educational situation? This is certainly what happens in many homes, > including my own. Indeed, deeming something appropriate seems to be > necessary to be able to decide what kind of education we want, right? Or > should we deem as inappropriate that people expect other people to do what > they feel/believe is appropriate? > > > But yes, another question is, what type of relations do we want to engage > into, what culture do we want?. After all, if the model is science (which > in Zukerman's case, who follows Davydov, seems to be), is not science the > product of the same (increasingly globalised) history from which > neoliberalism, comunism or putinism also are products? > > > I am everyday working as an assistant in an arts-based elementary school > here in Canada and I witness and participate in enforcing practicesm that > have very little to do with the progressist ideas explicitly endorsed by > the school. Even though I do not want to part-take in them, it really takes > a lot of work to break free from the inertia of the tasks, which are > (unawarely) designed so as to require enforcement. It is a very visceral > situation, being there with kids I love, and yet finding myself doing > precisely what I do not want to do. I am caught in the situation. What do I > need to do to break from it? I think first is the work of becoming aware > not only of the fact, but the conditions that sustain the fact: the task. > Next, I guess I have to realise that changing myself as an educator > requires changing the tasks. We are currently working on a reflective > process in which I hope to bring awareness and change to the whole staff. > Does this process resemble science? > > > Alfredo > > ________________________________ > From: White, Phillip > Sent: 03 December 2016 00:00 > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would > aneducationbe?" > > > everyone - having read Zukerman's paper on how young school children > learn to learn, it seems to me that the teaching strategies she promotes > will not come close to alleviating the problem of neoliberalism and the > hollowing out of students. as stated on page 2, "... schoolchildren must > to able to compute, read, write, and, by the way, learn. This occurred in > the late 1970's in the face of one in a series of technological revolutions > confronting manufacturers with a new need for lifelong training." > > > so there is the core proleptic goal of neoliberal education - students are > to be educated to meet the needs of business. > > > in my own experience of teaching - from kindergarten to graduate school - > the child who is described as an independent learner is actually a > compliant child. and certainly in Zukerman's examples, these children are > also learning to be compliant - they are expected to demonstrate learning > behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate for the classroom. > > > in point of fact, the last elementary school i was in for fifteen years - > 2001 - 2016 - the type of teaching and questioning strategies promoted by > Zukerman were practiced in every classroom. and teachers were explicitly > evaluated on how close them came to a rather common mantra: Never do for a > child that she can do herself. and, yes, all answers elicited through open > questions were written so that all could see, and then analysed and > evaluated by the students. > > > as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning > and social practices, at core there is always an ideology. > > > here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. > > > in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. > > > both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to > authority. > > > phillip > > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 8:26 AM > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would > aneducationbe?" > > Alfredo, > The resonance of your answer is harmonic with my question and feels so > gestating and co-generative. Learning collaboration as joint action leading > [orienting receptively] to freedom in the opening of future joint action > [all the way down]. > Mastering one?s *relations* TO OTHERS is achieved [an ability Zukerman > would say] by becoming subject AND SUBJECTING TO those relations. > At the heart of our inquiries is *relations* in their polyphonic > manifestations. > > What has just occurred here and now as an example [an exemplar?] of being > carried along by the *subject matter* developing what *we* mean. > > Con/vivial - con/verse/ation - all the way down. > > MITSEIN as well-being-in-the-world- WITH- others [abbreviated or shortened > to *well-being* > > An original and very appealing view/image on WHAT independence, or > BECOMING an independent learner - means > > I feel heard and inspired and grateful in this spirit [value?] of > friendship and fellowship unfolding in the back and forth across > perspectives > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > Sent: December 1, 2016 9:40 PM > To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would > aneducationbe?" > > Larry, > how accepted one view on Vygotsky is, is something many others in this > list know better than me. When I began reading Vygotsky, many here had > already bee studying his original works for 30 years... > > I know, however, that it is easy to simplify matters one way or another. > It is quite common, for example, to find published papers where Vygotskian > concepts are used in ways that effectively reify cognitivist views that > cognitive science itself has been trying to get rid off for long time now. > > Perhaps the question is not so much about how accepted a version of a > legacy is, and perhaps less so how accurate that version is with the > original intention, but how generative this version is for whatever we find > useful pursuing. A view where joint action leads to freedom in the > generation of future joint action (the turtles all the way down), and not > independently of it, seems to me more promising than other versions. > Although many things in this article are surely debatable, it certainly > offers an original and appealing view on what independence, or becoming and > independent learner means. Vygotskian historians have noted that Vygotsky > often referred to Bacon's aphorism "natura parendo vincitur"... In > G.Zuckerman's article, mastering one's relation to others is achieved by > becoming subject and subjecting to those relations. > > Alfredo > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > Sent: 02 December 2016 04:37 > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would > aneducationbe?" > > Alfredo, > How accepted is this perspective of the Vygotskian legacy as being > (intermental) through and through? > The metaphor (turtles all the way down) comes to mind? > > This perspective opens up the ideal or the possible of learning > collaboration as involving a spectrum or a layering of developmental > periods that emphasize a (merging quality) but emphasizes that all the > periods continue to be alive and animated. This includes the original > receptivity marking the infants gestures, and imitation, and play/imaginal > and learning activity as all active ingredients creating the personality. > To later become reflective and acquire some degree of volition over these > earlier more primordial deeper layers/spectrum of merged abilities as > secondary phenomena of learning collaboration seems to occur as a > derivative experience (after the experience of merger). > Opens up the question of central lines for further inquiry in the back and > forth. > > This term (intermental) seems to be a key notion for opening locked doors > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > Sent: December 1, 2016 4:19 PM > To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would > aneducationbe?" > > Larry, this way of articulating a Vygotskian approach to learning as NOT > something that simply first is external and that then becomes internal, is > one of the things that most attracted me from this paper. The competences > and cognitive functions that Galina describes are intermental through and > through, even when she talks of a "happy end" where the competence to > initiate collaboration is interiorized. This resonates quite well with an > argument that Michael R. and myself have been advancing recently referring > to the inter-intrasubjectivity (see e.g., MCA perezhivanie issue), although > critical readers will note that we advance the argument in a way much more > metaphorical than Galina's reported experiments (and being metaphorical is > a fair critique, though being so may also be a good way to move forward to > new concrete research programs). > > Another thing I like is that the article raises a question of > distinguishing (or not) between relations of learner and a skilled person > (may we say, an apprenticeship?) on the one hand, and between learner and > *teacher* on the other. An advantage of this approach is that it allows > tracing those genetic lines of development that are specific to teaching > (teaching/learning) situations of the kind western schools and middle class > parents sometimes exercise exhibiting and generating expectations of > learning to think and solve problems independently. > > Alfredo > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > Sent: 01 December 2016 21:21 > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would > aneducationbe?" > > Alfredo, > Since you opened a new thread for the Zukerman article -in particular ? > I will highlight a central question from page 17 that is organizing the > article for the reader?s ability to respond. > > The last paragraph on page 17 opens with: > > Just what is learning collaboration? > > The answer given: > > It can be (understood) in two ways. It can be seen as a sort of > scaffolding temporarily needed for mental development ? until children > aquire the ability to apply scientific concepts INDEPENDENTLY, to frame and > solve problems demanding theoretical thinking without the help of a > teacher. However, learning collaboration can also be (interpreted) not as > an ancillary developmental tool, not as an EXTERNAL removable support > created in the course of building the mental ediface, but as an important > part of this ediface, as A VALUABLE ABILITY ESSENTIAL TO HUMANS AT ANY > POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE. > > It is this 2nd version of (learning collaboration) as a valuable > (intermental ability) that continues and is universal, that this paper is > highlighting for our further inquiry into > > Just what is learning collaboration? As an aspect of answering, > Just what is education? > A four way back and forth co-generation of genetic phenomenology > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > Sent: December 1, 2016 8:09 AM > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would > aneducationbe?" > > Alfredo, > A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from > educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to learn > (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active force in > learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. > > Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn > independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the concepts > (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky > school: > 1) As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out with > the help of an adult, it is NOT independent > 2) People can independently bring about collaborative (intermental > action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. > > A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of > learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist > within the Vygotsky school. > To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of > intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. > As Zackerman says: > Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act > without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an > action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the adult > disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats > independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. > > This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and > purpose. The key question shifts to become: > What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY structure > (intermental) action. > > I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School > exploration of developmental paths. > Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as > interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration of > others. > Note that both alternatives are offering the key to answering -what is > education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into > this open question > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an > educationbe?" > > Alfredo, > ? WHAT is education. > This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing > stream. > > On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of (intermental) > collaboration. > Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of > intermental collaboration. > Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to > *endure*. > What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: > The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving adult > as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, > protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a thing > of inherent value. > > THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 > periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school > age). > So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. > > This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next period > emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and *enduring* form > of collaboration. > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education > be?" > > Hi all, > > > I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" > thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue 3 > lead article. > > > ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal > reading of 3 articles: Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science > identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's reading > of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. > > > A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, has > to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most importantly, > ?the question is also about what education could instead be as possibility, > as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are necessary: we > need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as much as we need a > notion of what a good education could be. > > > Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading for > the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I think > we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article (recently > mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition brings in is, in > my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for connecting the > two questions posed above, the one on the facts of education and the one on > possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter question on > possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability to learn is. > She writes: > > > "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of > which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a > question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what abilities > children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical > psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular developmental > potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for > the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm in > childhood development" > > Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and the > desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' > self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are *educability* > and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies in > the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of > learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. > > > I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for many > reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian > perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of > individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage > and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, > but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on age > that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses the > connection between communication and generalization, a connection that > became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of > Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the > non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and generalization, > in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the > "internalisation" way of languaging it). > > > The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational > ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Sat Dec 3 16:00:48 2016 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 00:00:48 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: <1480807479742.14918@iped.uio.no> References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com>, <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no>, <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no>, <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com>, , <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no>, , <1480807479742.14918@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <20161204000047.5955728.17827.17446@ucdenver.edu> By the way, your question about how to begin change in your children 's school - check out action research. Phillip Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. Original Message From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 4:30 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Reply To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Harvard was founded to educate the clergy, great point! Thanks! Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of White, Phillip Sent: 03 December 2016 20:43 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfred - yes, absolutely children are expected to demonstrated behaviours elicited by the teachers. that's the core structure of all institutions, authorities expect demonstrations of their goals, regardless of ideology. i think that we practitioner of CHAT too easily forget the historical aspects of activity theory. people can only do what they know how to do - and what they know how to do is often what is the deep structure of 'hidden curriculums', which are found in all cultural activities. hence revolutions eat their young, and the return to stability is a practice of the old ways wrapped in a new vocabulary that supports the new authorities. deep change is highly incremental. yes, classrooms don't appear to be the same as classrooms of one hundred years ago, much less two hundred years ago. however, remember that Harvard was founded to educate those destined for the clergy, the judiciary and the mercantile class. phillip ________________________________ From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 4:34:44 PM To: White, Phillip; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Phillip, interesting thoughts. ?Made me think of my ongoing experience at an elementary school (below). I also felt uneasy in the way Zukerman phrased some aspects of teaching/learning, and most of all, I did not understand why she talked about students learning, but not about teachers learning: teachers do also learn and develop (change!) in and through teaching/learning situations (and become better or worse teachers). But there is something concerning "compliance" that I do not get from your argument. You say that in Galina's examples, "children are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate" ... and then I wonder, is not this inherent to any educational situation? This is certainly what happens in many homes, including my own. Indeed, deeming something appropriate seems to be necessary to be able to decide what kind of education we want, right? Or should we deem as inappropriate that people expect other people to do what they feel/believe is appropriate? But yes, another question is, what type of relations do we want to engage into, what culture do we want?. After all, if the model is science (which in Zukerman's case, who follows Davydov, seems to be), is not science the product of the same (increasingly globalised) history from which neoliberalism, comunism or putinism also are products? I am everyday working as an assistant in an arts-based elementary school here in Canada and I witness and participate in enforcing practicesm that have very little to do with the progressist ideas explicitly endorsed by the school. Even though I do not want to part-take in them, it really takes a lot of work to break free from the inertia of the tasks, which are (unawarely) designed so as to require enforcement. It is a very visceral situation, being there with kids I love, and yet finding myself doing precisely what I do not want to do. I am caught in the situation. What do I need to do to break from it? I think first is the work of becoming aware not only of the fact, but the conditions that sustain the fact: the task. Next, I guess I have to realise that changing myself as an educator requires changing the tasks. We are currently working on a reflective process in which I hope to bring awareness and change to the whole staff. Does this process resemble science? Alfredo ________________________________ From: White, Phillip Sent: 03 December 2016 00:00 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" everyone - having read Zukerman's paper on how young school children learn to learn, it seems to me that the teaching strategies she promotes will not come close to alleviating the problem of neoliberalism and the hollowing out of students. as stated on page 2, "... schoolchildren must to able to compute, read, write, and, by the way, learn. This occurred in the late 1970's in the face of one in a series of technological revolutions confronting manufacturers with a new need for lifelong training." so there is the core proleptic goal of neoliberal education - students are to be educated to meet the needs of business. in my own experience of teaching - from kindergarten to graduate school - the child who is described as an independent learner is actually a compliant child. and certainly in Zukerman's examples, these children are also learning to be compliant - they are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate for the classroom. in point of fact, the last elementary school i was in for fifteen years - 2001 - 2016 - the type of teaching and questioning strategies promoted by Zukerman were practiced in every classroom. and teachers were explicitly evaluated on how close them came to a rather common mantra: Never do for a child that she can do herself. and, yes, all answers elicited through open questions were written so that all could see, and then analysed and evaluated by the students. as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning and social practices, at core there is always an ideology. here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to authority. phillip ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 8:26 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, The resonance of your answer is harmonic with my question and feels so gestating and co-generative. Learning collaboration as joint action leading [orienting receptively] to freedom in the opening of future joint action [all the way down]. Mastering one?s *relations* TO OTHERS is achieved [an ability Zukerman would say] by becoming subject AND SUBJECTING TO those relations. At the heart of our inquiries is *relations* in their polyphonic manifestations. What has just occurred here and now as an example [an exemplar?] of being carried along by the *subject matter* developing what *we* mean. Con/vivial - con/verse/ation - all the way down. MITSEIN as well-being-in-the-world- WITH- others [abbreviated or shortened to *well-being* An original and very appealing view/image on WHAT independence, or BECOMING an independent learner - means I feel heard and inspired and grateful in this spirit [value?] of friendship and fellowship unfolding in the back and forth across perspectives Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 9:40 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, how accepted one view on Vygotsky is, is something many others in this list know better than me. When I began reading Vygotsky, many here had already bee studying his original works for 30 years... I know, however, that it is easy to simplify matters one way or another. It is quite common, for example, to find published papers where Vygotskian concepts are used in ways that effectively reify cognitivist views that cognitive science itself has been trying to get rid off for long time now. Perhaps the question is not so much about how accepted a version of a legacy is, and perhaps less so how accurate that version is with the original intention, but how generative this version is for whatever we find useful pursuing. A view where joint action leads to freedom in the generation of future joint action (the turtles all the way down), and not independently of it, seems to me more promising than other versions. Although many things in this article are surely debatable, it certainly offers an original and appealing view on what independence, or becoming and independent learner means. Vygotskian historians have noted that Vygotsky often referred to Bacon's aphorism "natura parendo vincitur"... In G.Zuckerman's article, mastering one's relation to others is achieved by becoming subject and subjecting to those relations. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 02 December 2016 04:37 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, How accepted is this perspective of the Vygotskian legacy as being (intermental) through and through? The metaphor (turtles all the way down) comes to mind? This perspective opens up the ideal or the possible of learning collaboration as involving a spectrum or a layering of developmental periods that emphasize a (merging quality) but emphasizes that all the periods continue to be alive and animated. This includes the original receptivity marking the infants gestures, and imitation, and play/imaginal and learning activity as all active ingredients creating the personality. To later become reflective and acquire some degree of volition over these earlier more primordial deeper layers/spectrum of merged abilities as secondary phenomena of learning collaboration seems to occur as a derivative experience (after the experience of merger). Opens up the question of central lines for further inquiry in the back and forth. This term (intermental) seems to be a key notion for opening locked doors Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 4:19 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, this way of articulating a Vygotskian approach to learning as NOT something that simply first is external and that then becomes internal, is one of the things that most attracted me from this paper. The competences and cognitive functions that Galina describes are intermental through and through, even when she talks of a "happy end" where the competence to initiate collaboration is interiorized. This resonates quite well with an argument that Michael R. and myself have been advancing recently referring to the inter-intrasubjectivity (see e.g., MCA perezhivanie issue), although critical readers will note that we advance the argument in a way much more metaphorical than Galina's reported experiments (and being metaphorical is a fair critique, though being so may also be a good way to move forward to new concrete research programs). Another thing I like is that the article raises a question of distinguishing (or not) between relations of learner and a skilled person (may we say, an apprenticeship?) on the one hand, and between learner and *teacher* on the other. An advantage of this approach is that it allows tracing those genetic lines of development that are specific to teaching (teaching/learning) situations of the kind western schools and middle class parents sometimes exercise exhibiting and generating expectations of learning to think and solve problems independently. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 01 December 2016 21:21 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, Since you opened a new thread for the Zukerman article -in particular ? I will highlight a central question from page 17 that is organizing the article for the reader?s ability to respond. The last paragraph on page 17 opens with: Just what is learning collaboration? The answer given: It can be (understood) in two ways. It can be seen as a sort of scaffolding temporarily needed for mental development ? until children aquire the ability to apply scientific concepts INDEPENDENTLY, to frame and solve problems demanding theoretical thinking without the help of a teacher. However, learning collaboration can also be (interpreted) not as an ancillary developmental tool, not as an EXTERNAL removable support created in the course of building the mental ediface, but as an important part of this ediface, as A VALUABLE ABILITY ESSENTIAL TO HUMANS AT ANY POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE. It is this 2nd version of (learning collaboration) as a valuable (intermental ability) that continues and is universal, that this paper is highlighting for our further inquiry into Just what is learning collaboration? As an aspect of answering, Just what is education? A four way back and forth co-generation of genetic phenomenology Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: December 1, 2016 8:09 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to learn (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active force in learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the concepts (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky school: 1) As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out with the help of an adult, it is NOT independent 2) People can independently bring about collaborative (intermental action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist within the Vygotsky school. To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. As Zackerman says: Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the adult disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and purpose. The key question shifts to become: What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY structure (intermental) action. I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School exploration of developmental paths. Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration of others. Note that both alternatives are offering the key to answering -what is education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into this open question Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an educationbe?" Alfredo, ? WHAT is education. This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing stream. On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of (intermental) collaboration. Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of intermental collaboration. Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to *endure*. What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving adult as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a thing of inherent value. THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school age). So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next period emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and *enduring* form of collaboration. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education be?" Hi all, I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue 3 lead article. ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal reading of 3 articles: Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's reading of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, has to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most importantly, ?the question is also about what education could instead be as possibility, as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are necessary: we need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as much as we need a notion of what a good education could be. Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading for the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I think we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article (recently mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition brings in is, in my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for connecting the two questions posed above, the one on the facts of education and the one on possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter question on possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability to learn is. She writes: "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what abilities children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular developmental potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm in childhood development" Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and the desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are *educability* and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies in the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for many reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on age that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses the connection between communication and generalization, a connection that became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and generalization, in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the "internalisation" way of languaging it). The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. Alfredo From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Dec 3 16:07:29 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 16:07:29 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com> <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no> <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no> <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com> <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no> <1480807479742.14918@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Dear Colleagues -- My apologies for sending a message intended for Galina Tsukerman to the list, but there it is in two languages. Delete if it you are not interested. If you are, some context. When people began to show interest in Galina's paper I was afraid that it would go unnoticed because the publishers had messed up the print edition, and it was impossible to find the work in a TOC. And secondly, I thought both it and the paper that accompanies it relevant to the questions and suggestions being stimulated by Margaret and Carrie's paper. I forwarded comments to Galina who wrote to say that while she can read English she cannot write it. I offered to find a way to get her Russian answers translated but opined (and opine) that the discussion might get very complicated if people showed a lot of interested. We'll see how such communication develops, if it does. By way of explanation. mike On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 3:52 PM, mike cole wrote: > ????????? ?? ? ???????, ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ??-?????????, ?? ??? ????? > ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??-????????? ?? ???? ??? ???, ?? ?? ?????????? > ???????? ?????????, ?? ??????? ???? ????? ????. > ? ???? ?????? ??-?????? ????? ??????, ?? ? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? > ?????????? ??????? ??-?? ??? ?????, ??????????? ?? ??????? ? ?????? ??????? > Velham. > > ???? ????????? ???????????, ??????? ?? ????? ?? ??????, ????? ???????? ??. > ???? ??, ?? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ?????, ? ? ?????? ??? > ?????????, ????? ???????? ?? ???????. ?????????? ????? ????? ????? > ??????????, ?? ? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ??????? > ???????????? ??? ?? ???????? ???????? ????????. ?? ?????? ??????. > > ?? ??????? ????, ?? ??????????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ??????? ?????. (? > ???? ?? ??????? ????? ? ??????? Google Translate, ??????? ?????? ?????????? > ??????? ??????). ?? ????? ?? ?????????? ???????????? ? ???????? ??????????? > ? ????????? ???????, ??? ??? ????????. > > ???? ? ??? ???? PDF ??????????? ???????, ?? ????? ?? ?? ????????? ???? ? > ????, ????? ????????? ????????????? ???? ? ????????? ??????. > > ??? ?????? ???? ? ???????? !! > > (in English it reads like this): > > Galya- > > Do I understand correctly that you can READ English, but it is very > difficult for you to WRITE English?? If that is the case, there is no real > difficulty at least between us. > I can read Russian pretty well, but I am used to writing it only in latin > letters because of all the time spent on communication as part of the > Velham project. > > There are some comments you might want to respond to. If so, send your > response to me in Russian and I will do my best to get them translated. The > discussion could become very interesting, but also it could become too > difficult > to maintain or evoke no interest. We will have to see. > > At least feel free always to write to me in Russian. (I am writing in > Russian via google translate which is doing a reasonably good job). You > might try using in reverse and lets see how it works. > > If you have a PDF of the Russian publication, could you send it? I want to > check word usage in some places. > > How nice to be in contact!! > > Warmest regards, > > mike > > On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > >> Harvard was founded to educate the clergy, great point! Thanks! >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of White, Phillip >> Sent: 03 December 2016 20:43 >> To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would >> aneducationbe?" >> >> Alfred - yes, absolutely children are expected to demonstrated behaviours >> elicited by the teachers. that's the core structure of all institutions, >> authorities expect demonstrations of their goals, regardless of ideology. >> >> >> i think that we practitioner of CHAT too easily forget the historical >> aspects of activity theory. people can only do what they know how to do - >> and what they know how to do is often what is the deep structure of 'hidden >> curriculums', which are found in all cultural activities. hence >> revolutions eat their young, and the return to stability is a practice of >> the old ways wrapped in a new vocabulary that supports the new authorities. >> >> >> deep change is highly incremental. yes, classrooms don't appear to be >> the same as classrooms of one hundred years ago, much less two hundred >> years ago. however, remember that Harvard was founded to educate those >> destined for the clergy, the judiciary and the mercantile class. >> >> >> phillip >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil >> Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 4:34:44 PM >> To: White, Phillip; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would >> aneducationbe?" >> >> >> Phillip, interesting thoughts. ?Made me think of my ongoing experience at >> an elementary school (below). >> >> >> I also felt uneasy in the way Zukerman phrased some aspects of >> teaching/learning, and most of all, I did not understand why she talked >> about students learning, but not about teachers learning: teachers do also >> learn and develop (change!) in and through teaching/learning situations >> (and become better or worse teachers). But there is something concerning >> "compliance" that I do not get from your argument. You say that in Galina's >> examples, "children are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that >> the teacher deems appropriate" ... and then I wonder, is not this inherent >> to any educational situation? This is certainly what happens in many homes, >> including my own. Indeed, deeming something appropriate seems to be >> necessary to be able to decide what kind of education we want, right? Or >> should we deem as inappropriate that people expect other people to do what >> they feel/believe is appropriate? >> >> >> But yes, another question is, what type of relations do we want to engage >> into, what culture do we want?. After all, if the model is science (which >> in Zukerman's case, who follows Davydov, seems to be), is not science the >> product of the same (increasingly globalised) history from which >> neoliberalism, comunism or putinism also are products? >> >> >> I am everyday working as an assistant in an arts-based elementary school >> here in Canada and I witness and participate in enforcing practicesm that >> have very little to do with the progressist ideas explicitly endorsed by >> the school. Even though I do not want to part-take in them, it really takes >> a lot of work to break free from the inertia of the tasks, which are >> (unawarely) designed so as to require enforcement. It is a very visceral >> situation, being there with kids I love, and yet finding myself doing >> precisely what I do not want to do. I am caught in the situation. What do I >> need to do to break from it? I think first is the work of becoming aware >> not only of the fact, but the conditions that sustain the fact: the task. >> Next, I guess I have to realise that changing myself as an educator >> requires changing the tasks. We are currently working on a reflective >> process in which I hope to bring awareness and change to the whole staff. >> Does this process resemble science? >> >> >> Alfredo >> >> ________________________________ >> From: White, Phillip >> Sent: 03 December 2016 00:00 >> To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would >> aneducationbe?" >> >> >> everyone - having read Zukerman's paper on how young school children >> learn to learn, it seems to me that the teaching strategies she promotes >> will not come close to alleviating the problem of neoliberalism and the >> hollowing out of students. as stated on page 2, "... schoolchildren must >> to able to compute, read, write, and, by the way, learn. This occurred in >> the late 1970's in the face of one in a series of technological revolutions >> confronting manufacturers with a new need for lifelong training." >> >> >> so there is the core proleptic goal of neoliberal education - students >> are to be educated to meet the needs of business. >> >> >> in my own experience of teaching - from kindergarten to graduate school - >> the child who is described as an independent learner is actually a >> compliant child. and certainly in Zukerman's examples, these children are >> also learning to be compliant - they are expected to demonstrate learning >> behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate for the classroom. >> >> >> in point of fact, the last elementary school i was in for fifteen years - >> 2001 - 2016 - the type of teaching and questioning strategies promoted by >> Zukerman were practiced in every classroom. and teachers were explicitly >> evaluated on how close them came to a rather common mantra: Never do for a >> child that she can do herself. and, yes, all answers elicited through open >> questions were written so that all could see, and then analysed and >> evaluated by the students. >> >> >> as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning >> and social practices, at core there is always an ideology. >> >> >> here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. >> >> >> in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. >> >> >> both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to >> authority. >> >> >> phillip >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com >> Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 8:26 AM >> To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would >> aneducationbe?" >> >> Alfredo, >> The resonance of your answer is harmonic with my question and feels so >> gestating and co-generative. Learning collaboration as joint action leading >> [orienting receptively] to freedom in the opening of future joint action >> [all the way down]. >> Mastering one?s *relations* TO OTHERS is achieved [an ability Zukerman >> would say] by becoming subject AND SUBJECTING TO those relations. >> At the heart of our inquiries is *relations* in their polyphonic >> manifestations. >> >> What has just occurred here and now as an example [an exemplar?] of being >> carried along by the *subject matter* developing what *we* mean. >> >> Con/vivial - con/verse/ation - all the way down. >> >> MITSEIN as well-being-in-the-world- WITH- others [abbreviated or >> shortened to *well-being* >> >> An original and very appealing view/image on WHAT independence, or >> BECOMING an independent learner - means >> >> I feel heard and inspired and grateful in this spirit [value?] of >> friendship and fellowship unfolding in the back and forth across >> perspectives >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil >> Sent: December 1, 2016 9:40 PM >> To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would >> aneducationbe?" >> >> Larry, >> how accepted one view on Vygotsky is, is something many others in this >> list know better than me. When I began reading Vygotsky, many here had >> already bee studying his original works for 30 years... >> >> I know, however, that it is easy to simplify matters one way or another. >> It is quite common, for example, to find published papers where Vygotskian >> concepts are used in ways that effectively reify cognitivist views that >> cognitive science itself has been trying to get rid off for long time now. >> >> Perhaps the question is not so much about how accepted a version of a >> legacy is, and perhaps less so how accurate that version is with the >> original intention, but how generative this version is for whatever we find >> useful pursuing. A view where joint action leads to freedom in the >> generation of future joint action (the turtles all the way down), and not >> independently of it, seems to me more promising than other versions. >> Although many things in this article are surely debatable, it certainly >> offers an original and appealing view on what independence, or becoming and >> independent learner means. Vygotskian historians have noted that Vygotsky >> often referred to Bacon's aphorism "natura parendo vincitur"... In >> G.Zuckerman's article, mastering one's relation to others is achieved by >> becoming subject and subjecting to those relations. >> >> Alfredo >> >> From: lpscholar2@gmail.com >> Sent: 02 December 2016 04:37 >> To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would >> aneducationbe?" >> >> Alfredo, >> How accepted is this perspective of the Vygotskian legacy as being >> (intermental) through and through? >> The metaphor (turtles all the way down) comes to mind? >> >> This perspective opens up the ideal or the possible of learning >> collaboration as involving a spectrum or a layering of developmental >> periods that emphasize a (merging quality) but emphasizes that all the >> periods continue to be alive and animated. This includes the original >> receptivity marking the infants gestures, and imitation, and play/imaginal >> and learning activity as all active ingredients creating the personality. >> To later become reflective and acquire some degree of volition over these >> earlier more primordial deeper layers/spectrum of merged abilities as >> secondary phenomena of learning collaboration seems to occur as a >> derivative experience (after the experience of merger). >> Opens up the question of central lines for further inquiry in the back >> and forth. >> >> This term (intermental) seems to be a key notion for opening locked doors >> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil >> Sent: December 1, 2016 4:19 PM >> To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would >> aneducationbe?" >> >> Larry, this way of articulating a Vygotskian approach to learning as NOT >> something that simply first is external and that then becomes internal, is >> one of the things that most attracted me from this paper. The competences >> and cognitive functions that Galina describes are intermental through and >> through, even when she talks of a "happy end" where the competence to >> initiate collaboration is interiorized. This resonates quite well with an >> argument that Michael R. and myself have been advancing recently referring >> to the inter-intrasubjectivity (see e.g., MCA perezhivanie issue), although >> critical readers will note that we advance the argument in a way much more >> metaphorical than Galina's reported experiments (and being metaphorical is >> a fair critique, though being so may also be a good way to move forward to >> new concrete research programs). >> >> Another thing I like is that the article raises a question of >> distinguishing (or not) between relations of learner and a skilled person >> (may we say, an apprenticeship?) on the one hand, and between learner and >> *teacher* on the other. An advantage of this approach is that it allows >> tracing those genetic lines of development that are specific to teaching >> (teaching/learning) situations of the kind western schools and middle class >> parents sometimes exercise exhibiting and generating expectations of >> learning to think and solve problems independently. >> >> Alfredo >> >> From: lpscholar2@gmail.com >> Sent: 01 December 2016 21:21 >> To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would >> aneducationbe?" >> >> Alfredo, >> Since you opened a new thread for the Zukerman article -in particular ? >> I will highlight a central question from page 17 that is organizing the >> article for the reader?s ability to respond. >> >> The last paragraph on page 17 opens with: >> >> Just what is learning collaboration? >> >> The answer given: >> >> It can be (understood) in two ways. It can be seen as a sort of >> scaffolding temporarily needed for mental development ? until children >> aquire the ability to apply scientific concepts INDEPENDENTLY, to frame and >> solve problems demanding theoretical thinking without the help of a >> teacher. However, learning collaboration can also be (interpreted) not as >> an ancillary developmental tool, not as an EXTERNAL removable support >> created in the course of building the mental ediface, but as an important >> part of this ediface, as A VALUABLE ABILITY ESSENTIAL TO HUMANS AT ANY >> POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE. >> >> It is this 2nd version of (learning collaboration) as a valuable >> (intermental ability) that continues and is universal, that this paper is >> highlighting for our further inquiry into >> >> Just what is learning collaboration? As an aspect of answering, >> Just what is education? >> A four way back and forth co-generation of genetic phenomenology >> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> From: lpscholar2@gmail.com >> Sent: December 1, 2016 8:09 AM >> To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would >> aneducationbe?" >> >> Alfredo, >> A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from >> educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to learn >> (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active force in >> learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. >> >> Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn >> independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the concepts >> (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky >> school: >> 1) As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out >> with the help of an adult, it is NOT independent >> 2) People can independently bring about collaborative (intermental >> action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. >> >> A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of >> learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist >> within the Vygotsky school. >> To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of >> intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. >> As Zackerman says: >> Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act >> without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an >> action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the adult >> disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats >> independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. >> >> This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and >> purpose. The key question shifts to become: >> What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY >> structure (intermental) action. >> >> I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School >> exploration of developmental paths. >> Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as >> interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration of >> others. >> Note that both alternatives are offering the key to answering -what is >> education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into >> this open question >> >> >> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> From: lpscholar2@gmail.com >> Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM >> To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an >> educationbe?" >> >> Alfredo, >> ? WHAT is education. >> This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing >> stream. >> >> On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of (intermental) >> collaboration. >> Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of >> intermental collaboration. >> Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to >> *endure*. >> What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: >> The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving >> adult as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, >> protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a thing >> of inherent value. >> >> THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 >> periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school >> age). >> So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. >> >> This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next >> period emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and >> *enduring* form of collaboration. >> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil >> Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education >> be?" >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" >> thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue 3 >> lead article. >> >> >> ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal >> reading of 3 articles: Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science >> identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's reading >> of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. >> >> >> A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, >> has to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most >> importantly, ?the question is also about what education could instead be as >> possibility, as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are >> necessary: we need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as much >> as we need a notion of what a good education could be. >> >> >> Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading >> for the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I >> think we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article >> (recently mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition brings >> in is, in my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for >> connecting the two questions posed above, the one on the facts of education >> and the one on possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter >> question on possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability to >> learn is. She writes: >> >> >> "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of >> which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a >> question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what abilities >> children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical >> psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular developmental >> potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for >> the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm in >> childhood development" >> >> Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and the >> desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' >> self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are *educability* >> and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies in >> the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of >> learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. >> >> >> I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for >> many reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian >> perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of >> individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage >> and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, >> but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on age >> that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses the >> connection between communication and generalization, a connection that >> became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of >> Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the >> non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and generalization, >> in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the >> "internalisation" way of languaging it). >> >> >> The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational >> ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. >> >> Alfredo >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Dec 3 17:56:19 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 01:56:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com> <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no> <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no> <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com> <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no> <1480807479742.14918@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Thanks for your efforts, Mike. It's not clear to me that these two papers have been read (in the sense of consciously and carefully). They are difficult papers due to many references (both explicitly and implicitly) to this area of research. I am glad to have read them as they elaborate upon dynamics which I have puzzled over for areas in which Davydov et al tailed off (at least for the English translations). Galina's elaboration offers a succinct and elegant development to those formulations. I shall find time to look at Galina's JREEP 45.3 papers too. But what is current, the JREEP 53 papers are from a year 2000 publication? Best, Huw On 4 December 2016 at 00:07, mike cole wrote: > Dear Colleagues -- My apologies for sending a message intended for Galina > Tsukerman to the list, but there it is in two languages. Delete if it you > are not interested. If you are, some context. > > When people began to show interest in Galina's paper I was afraid that it > would go unnoticed because the publishers had messed up the print edition, > and it was impossible to find the work in a TOC. And secondly, I thought > both it and the paper that accompanies it relevant to the questions and > suggestions being stimulated by Margaret and Carrie's paper. > > I forwarded comments to Galina who wrote to say that while she can read > English she cannot write it. I offered to find a way to get her Russian > answers translated but opined (and opine) that the discussion might get > very complicated if people showed a lot of interested. We'll see how such > communication develops, if it does. > > By way of explanation. > > mike > > On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 3:52 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > ????????? ?? ? ???????, ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ??-?????????, ?? ??? ????? > > ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??-????????? ?? ???? ??? ???, ?? ?? ?????????? > > ???????? ?????????, ?? ??????? ???? ????? ????. > > ? ???? ?????? ??-?????? ????? ??????, ?? ? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? > > ?????????? ??????? ??-?? ??? ?????, ??????????? ?? ??????? ? ?????? > ??????? > > Velham. > > > > ???? ????????? ???????????, ??????? ?? ????? ?? ??????, ????? ???????? > ??. > > ???? ??, ?? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ?????, ? ? ?????? ??? > > ?????????, ????? ???????? ?? ???????. ?????????? ????? ????? ????? > > ??????????, ?? ? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ??????? > > ???????????? ??? ?? ???????? ???????? ????????. ?? ?????? ??????. > > > > ?? ??????? ????, ?? ??????????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ??????? ?????. (? > > ???? ?? ??????? ????? ? ??????? Google Translate, ??????? ?????? > ?????????? > > ??????? ??????). ?? ????? ?? ?????????? ???????????? ? ???????? > ??????????? > > ? ????????? ???????, ??? ??? ????????. > > > > ???? ? ??? ???? PDF ??????????? ???????, ?? ????? ?? ?? ????????? ???? ? > > ????, ????? ????????? ????????????? ???? ? ????????? ??????. > > > > ??? ?????? ???? ? ???????? !! > > > > (in English it reads like this): > > > > Galya- > > > > Do I understand correctly that you can READ English, but it is very > > difficult for you to WRITE English?? If that is the case, there is no > real > > difficulty at least between us. > > I can read Russian pretty well, but I am used to writing it only in latin > > letters because of all the time spent on communication as part of the > > Velham project. > > > > There are some comments you might want to respond to. If so, send your > > response to me in Russian and I will do my best to get them translated. > The > > discussion could become very interesting, but also it could become too > > difficult > > to maintain or evoke no interest. We will have to see. > > > > At least feel free always to write to me in Russian. (I am writing in > > Russian via google translate which is doing a reasonably good job). You > > might try using in reverse and lets see how it works. > > > > If you have a PDF of the Russian publication, could you send it? I want > to > > check word usage in some places. > > > > How nice to be in contact!! > > > > Warmest regards, > > > > mike > > > > On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > > >> Harvard was founded to educate the clergy, great point! Thanks! > >> Alfredo > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> on behalf of White, Phillip > >> Sent: 03 December 2016 20:43 > >> To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would > >> aneducationbe?" > >> > >> Alfred - yes, absolutely children are expected to demonstrated > behaviours > >> elicited by the teachers. that's the core structure of all > institutions, > >> authorities expect demonstrations of their goals, regardless of > ideology. > >> > >> > >> i think that we practitioner of CHAT too easily forget the historical > >> aspects of activity theory. people can only do what they know how to > do - > >> and what they know how to do is often what is the deep structure of > 'hidden > >> curriculums', which are found in all cultural activities. hence > >> revolutions eat their young, and the return to stability is a practice > of > >> the old ways wrapped in a new vocabulary that supports the new > authorities. > >> > >> > >> deep change is highly incremental. yes, classrooms don't appear to be > >> the same as classrooms of one hundred years ago, much less two hundred > >> years ago. however, remember that Harvard was founded to educate those > >> destined for the clergy, the judiciary and the mercantile class. > >> > >> > >> phillip > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > >> Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 4:34:44 PM > >> To: White, Phillip; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would > >> aneducationbe?" > >> > >> > >> Phillip, interesting thoughts. ?Made me think of my ongoing experience > at > >> an elementary school (below). > >> > >> > >> I also felt uneasy in the way Zukerman phrased some aspects of > >> teaching/learning, and most of all, I did not understand why she talked > >> about students learning, but not about teachers learning: teachers do > also > >> learn and develop (change!) in and through teaching/learning situations > >> (and become better or worse teachers). But there is something concerning > >> "compliance" that I do not get from your argument. You say that in > Galina's > >> examples, "children are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that > >> the teacher deems appropriate" ... and then I wonder, is not this > inherent > >> to any educational situation? This is certainly what happens in many > homes, > >> including my own. Indeed, deeming something appropriate seems to be > >> necessary to be able to decide what kind of education we want, right? Or > >> should we deem as inappropriate that people expect other people to do > what > >> they feel/believe is appropriate? > >> > >> > >> But yes, another question is, what type of relations do we want to > engage > >> into, what culture do we want?. After all, if the model is science > (which > >> in Zukerman's case, who follows Davydov, seems to be), is not science > the > >> product of the same (increasingly globalised) history from which > >> neoliberalism, comunism or putinism also are products? > >> > >> > >> I am everyday working as an assistant in an arts-based elementary school > >> here in Canada and I witness and participate in enforcing practicesm > that > >> have very little to do with the progressist ideas explicitly endorsed by > >> the school. Even though I do not want to part-take in them, it really > takes > >> a lot of work to break free from the inertia of the tasks, which are > >> (unawarely) designed so as to require enforcement. It is a very visceral > >> situation, being there with kids I love, and yet finding myself doing > >> precisely what I do not want to do. I am caught in the situation. What > do I > >> need to do to break from it? I think first is the work of becoming aware > >> not only of the fact, but the conditions that sustain the fact: the > task. > >> Next, I guess I have to realise that changing myself as an educator > >> requires changing the tasks. We are currently working on a reflective > >> process in which I hope to bring awareness and change to the whole > staff. > >> Does this process resemble science? > >> > >> > >> Alfredo > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: White, Phillip > >> Sent: 03 December 2016 00:00 > >> To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would > >> aneducationbe?" > >> > >> > >> everyone - having read Zukerman's paper on how young school children > >> learn to learn, it seems to me that the teaching strategies she promotes > >> will not come close to alleviating the problem of neoliberalism and the > >> hollowing out of students. as stated on page 2, "... schoolchildren > must > >> to able to compute, read, write, and, by the way, learn. This occurred > in > >> the late 1970's in the face of one in a series of technological > revolutions > >> confronting manufacturers with a new need for lifelong training." > >> > >> > >> so there is the core proleptic goal of neoliberal education - students > >> are to be educated to meet the needs of business. > >> > >> > >> in my own experience of teaching - from kindergarten to graduate school > - > >> the child who is described as an independent learner is actually a > >> compliant child. and certainly in Zukerman's examples, these children > are > >> also learning to be compliant - they are expected to demonstrate > learning > >> behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate for the classroom. > >> > >> > >> in point of fact, the last elementary school i was in for fifteen years > - > >> 2001 - 2016 - the type of teaching and questioning strategies promoted > by > >> Zukerman were practiced in every classroom. and teachers were > explicitly > >> evaluated on how close them came to a rather common mantra: Never do > for a > >> child that she can do herself. and, yes, all answers elicited through > open > >> questions were written so that all could see, and then analysed and > >> evaluated by the students. > >> > >> > >> as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of > learning > >> and social practices, at core there is always an ideology. > >> > >> > >> here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. > >> > >> > >> in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. > >> > >> > >> both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to > >> authority. > >> > >> > >> phillip > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > >> Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 8:26 AM > >> To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would > >> aneducationbe?" > >> > >> Alfredo, > >> The resonance of your answer is harmonic with my question and feels so > >> gestating and co-generative. Learning collaboration as joint action > leading > >> [orienting receptively] to freedom in the opening of future joint action > >> [all the way down]. > >> Mastering one?s *relations* TO OTHERS is achieved [an ability Zukerman > >> would say] by becoming subject AND SUBJECTING TO those relations. > >> At the heart of our inquiries is *relations* in their polyphonic > >> manifestations. > >> > >> What has just occurred here and now as an example [an exemplar?] of > being > >> carried along by the *subject matter* developing what *we* mean. > >> > >> Con/vivial - con/verse/ation - all the way down. > >> > >> MITSEIN as well-being-in-the-world- WITH- others [abbreviated or > >> shortened to *well-being* > >> > >> An original and very appealing view/image on WHAT independence, or > >> BECOMING an independent learner - means > >> > >> I feel heard and inspired and grateful in this spirit [value?] of > >> friendship and fellowship unfolding in the back and forth across > >> perspectives > >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > >> > >> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > >> Sent: December 1, 2016 9:40 PM > >> To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would > >> aneducationbe?" > >> > >> Larry, > >> how accepted one view on Vygotsky is, is something many others in this > >> list know better than me. When I began reading Vygotsky, many here had > >> already bee studying his original works for 30 years... > >> > >> I know, however, that it is easy to simplify matters one way or another. > >> It is quite common, for example, to find published papers where > Vygotskian > >> concepts are used in ways that effectively reify cognitivist views that > >> cognitive science itself has been trying to get rid off for long time > now. > >> > >> Perhaps the question is not so much about how accepted a version of a > >> legacy is, and perhaps less so how accurate that version is with the > >> original intention, but how generative this version is for whatever we > find > >> useful pursuing. A view where joint action leads to freedom in the > >> generation of future joint action (the turtles all the way down), and > not > >> independently of it, seems to me more promising than other versions. > >> Although many things in this article are surely debatable, it certainly > >> offers an original and appealing view on what independence, or becoming > and > >> independent learner means. Vygotskian historians have noted that > Vygotsky > >> often referred to Bacon's aphorism "natura parendo vincitur"... In > >> G.Zuckerman's article, mastering one's relation to others is achieved by > >> becoming subject and subjecting to those relations. > >> > >> Alfredo > >> > >> From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > >> Sent: 02 December 2016 04:37 > >> To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would > >> aneducationbe?" > >> > >> Alfredo, > >> How accepted is this perspective of the Vygotskian legacy as being > >> (intermental) through and through? > >> The metaphor (turtles all the way down) comes to mind? > >> > >> This perspective opens up the ideal or the possible of learning > >> collaboration as involving a spectrum or a layering of developmental > >> periods that emphasize a (merging quality) but emphasizes that all the > >> periods continue to be alive and animated. This includes the original > >> receptivity marking the infants gestures, and imitation, and > play/imaginal > >> and learning activity as all active ingredients creating the > personality. > >> To later become reflective and acquire some degree of volition over > these > >> earlier more primordial deeper layers/spectrum of merged abilities as > >> secondary phenomena of learning collaboration seems to occur as a > >> derivative experience (after the experience of merger). > >> Opens up the question of central lines for further inquiry in the back > >> and forth. > >> > >> This term (intermental) seems to be a key notion for opening locked > doors > >> > >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >> > >> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > >> Sent: December 1, 2016 4:19 PM > >> To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would > >> aneducationbe?" > >> > >> Larry, this way of articulating a Vygotskian approach to learning as NOT > >> something that simply first is external and that then becomes internal, > is > >> one of the things that most attracted me from this paper. The > competences > >> and cognitive functions that Galina describes are intermental through > and > >> through, even when she talks of a "happy end" where the competence to > >> initiate collaboration is interiorized. This resonates quite well with > an > >> argument that Michael R. and myself have been advancing recently > referring > >> to the inter-intrasubjectivity (see e.g., MCA perezhivanie issue), > although > >> critical readers will note that we advance the argument in a way much > more > >> metaphorical than Galina's reported experiments (and being metaphorical > is > >> a fair critique, though being so may also be a good way to move > forward to > >> new concrete research programs). > >> > >> Another thing I like is that the article raises a question of > >> distinguishing (or not) between relations of learner and a skilled > person > >> (may we say, an apprenticeship?) on the one hand, and between learner > and > >> *teacher* on the other. An advantage of this approach is that it allows > >> tracing those genetic lines of development that are specific to teaching > >> (teaching/learning) situations of the kind western schools and middle > class > >> parents sometimes exercise exhibiting and generating expectations of > >> learning to think and solve problems independently. > >> > >> Alfredo > >> > >> From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > >> Sent: 01 December 2016 21:21 > >> To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would > >> aneducationbe?" > >> > >> Alfredo, > >> Since you opened a new thread for the Zukerman article -in particular ? > >> I will highlight a central question from page 17 that is organizing the > >> article for the reader?s ability to respond. > >> > >> The last paragraph on page 17 opens with: > >> > >> Just what is learning collaboration? > >> > >> The answer given: > >> > >> It can be (understood) in two ways. It can be seen as a sort of > >> scaffolding temporarily needed for mental development ? until children > >> aquire the ability to apply scientific concepts INDEPENDENTLY, to frame > and > >> solve problems demanding theoretical thinking without the help of a > >> teacher. However, learning collaboration can also be (interpreted) not > as > >> an ancillary developmental tool, not as an EXTERNAL removable support > >> created in the course of building the mental ediface, but as an > important > >> part of this ediface, as A VALUABLE ABILITY ESSENTIAL TO HUMANS AT ANY > >> POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE. > >> > >> It is this 2nd version of (learning collaboration) as a valuable > >> (intermental ability) that continues and is universal, that this paper > is > >> highlighting for our further inquiry into > >> > >> Just what is learning collaboration? As an aspect of answering, > >> Just what is education? > >> A four way back and forth co-generation of genetic phenomenology > >> > >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >> > >> From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > >> Sent: December 1, 2016 8:09 AM > >> To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would > >> aneducationbe?" > >> > >> Alfredo, > >> A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from > >> educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to > learn > >> (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active > force in > >> learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. > >> > >> Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn > >> independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the > concepts > >> (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the > Vygotsky > >> school: > >> 1) As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out > >> with the help of an adult, it is NOT independent > >> 2) People can independently bring about collaborative (intermental > >> action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. > >> > >> A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of > >> learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist > >> within the Vygotsky school. > >> To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of > >> intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. > >> As Zackerman says: > >> Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act > >> without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an > >> action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the > adult > >> disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats > >> independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. > >> > >> This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and > >> purpose. The key question shifts to become: > >> What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY > >> structure (intermental) action. > >> > >> I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School > >> exploration of developmental paths. > >> Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as > >> interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration > of > >> others. > >> Note that both alternatives are offering the key to answering -what is > >> education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into > >> this open question > >> > >> > >> > >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >> > >> From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > >> Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM > >> To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an > >> educationbe?" > >> > >> Alfredo, > >> ? WHAT is education. > >> This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing > >> stream. > >> > >> On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of > (intermental) > >> collaboration. > >> Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of > >> intermental collaboration. > >> Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to > >> *endure*. > >> What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: > >> The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving > >> adult as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, > >> protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a > thing > >> of inherent value. > >> > >> THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 > >> periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school > >> age). > >> So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. > >> > >> This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next > >> period emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and > >> *enduring* form of collaboration. > >> > >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >> > >> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > >> Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education > >> be?" > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> > >> I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" > >> thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue > 3 > >> lead article. > >> > >> > >> ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal > >> reading of 3 articles: Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science > >> identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's > reading > >> of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. > >> > >> > >> A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, > >> has to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most > >> importantly, ?the question is also about what education could instead > be as > >> possibility, as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are > >> necessary: we need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as > much > >> as we need a notion of what a good education could be. > >> > >> > >> Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading > >> for the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I > >> think we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article > >> (recently mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition > brings > >> in is, in my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for > >> connecting the two questions posed above, the one on the facts of > education > >> and the one on possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter > >> question on possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability > to > >> learn is. She writes: > >> > >> > >> "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of > >> which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a > >> question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what > abilities > >> children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical > >> psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular > developmental > >> potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for > >> the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm > in > >> childhood development" > >> > >> Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and > the > >> desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' > >> self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are > *educability* > >> and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies > in > >> the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of > >> learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. > >> > >> > >> I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for > >> many reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian > >> perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of > >> individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage > >> and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, > >> but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on > age > >> that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses > the > >> connection between communication and generalization, a connection that > >> became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of > >> Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the > >> non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and > generalization, > >> in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the > >> "internalisation" way of languaging it). > >> > >> > >> The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational > >> ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. > >> > >> Alfredo > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Sat Dec 3 20:56:24 2016 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 04:56:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what wouldaneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: <584329bf.02c4620a.5fcc6.3dd6@mx.google.com> References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com>, <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no>, <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no>, <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com>, <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no>, <5842d21a.0370630a.6214.05f6@mx.google.com> , <584329bf.02c4620a.5fcc6.3dd6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Larry, i have no idea what Foucault means here in the reference you came across. my regrets, phillip ________________________________ From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 1:23:03 PM To: White, Phillip; Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what wouldaneducationbe?" Phillip, I recently came across a reference to Foucault saying that the relational movement back and forth occurs between (tradition and oblivion). With Mike?s reference to Benjamin?s angel looking back at history and being blown toward what can feel like oblivion, there is still the image of the angel between. This movement/transition seems to express powerful currents in which the angel seems transfixed. Is Foucault saying the answer lies in moving between tradition and oblivion and not becoming transfixed in either polarity? Each in the other? Resuming the Zuckerman focus on (able to learn through learning collaboration). She is positing the virtue of a teacher whose relation to a learner is to (hold back) the learner from moving to an end product and refocus on orientating to (the means) necessary for boundary crossing. The means are intermental. (mitsein). Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: White, Phillip Sent: December 3, 2016 9:08 AM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what wouldaneducationbe?" dear all - it was not my intention to suggest that the model for teaching is in itself neoliberal, but rather the author's stated goal for my these teaching strategies are necessary. check out Foucault's "Discipline and Punish", particularly the section on disciplined bodies. but no, this model is not inherently so. like all tools, it can be used for different goals. a hammer can be used to construct the frame of a house, or commit murder. phillip From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 7:09:06 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; White, Phillip; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Phillip, Alfredo, and others focused on Zuckerman?s article which orients and moves us to transition to the concept of intermental learning collaboration all the way down. Is her model (inherently) neoliberal or is her model being *put* in the service of the neoliberal? The model she presents of layers and merging of layers that may be put in the service of more dialogical intermental education as learning collaboration. A key term is *able to learn* and on page 23 & 24 she unpacks what this means: In her words ? when learning goes beyond *infecting* someone an ability the way that toddlers learn to talk, dress, and play. (LP -layer 2 the imitative) Here is Zuckerman?s explication of going beyond layer 2 as merger or fusion with layer 4 that is developing: ? Teachers are also needed by learners so that, on the boundary between learning and doing, between orientation and doing, learners can be (held back) in a state of orientation and not allowed to pursue a result (LP ? end) without paying attention to the way that result is being (attained). Teachers have only one demand: For children to clarify in their own minds whether or not they have assimilated the (means) of action or need to continue their learning. In other words the focus of joint learner-teacher action (LP -intermental) is the boundary of the learner?s competence and the means for *crossing* that boundary (LP ? together). Learning to go beyond the boundary of one?s own capabilities, beyond the boundary of a particular situation ? THAT IS the meaning of being *able to learn* This model of being able to learn may be put in the service of neoliberalism. However is that inherently so? My turn is up. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 2, 2016 3:40 PM To: White, Phillip; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Phillip, interesting thoughts. ?Made me think of my ongoing experience at an elementary school (below). I also felt uneasy in the way Zukerman phrased some aspects of teaching/learning, and most of all, I did not understand why she talked about students learning, but not about teachers learning: teachers do also learn and develop (change!) in and through teaching/learning situations (and become better or worse teachers). But there is something concerning "compliance" that I do not get from your argument. You say that in Galina's examples, "children are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate" ... and then I wonder, is not this inherent to any educational situation? This is certainly what happens in many homes, including my own. Indeed, deeming something appropriate seems to be necessary to be able to decide what kind of education we want, right? Or should we deem as inappropriate that people expect other people to do what they feel/believe is appropriate? But yes, another question is, what type of relations do we want to engage into, what culture do we want?. After all, if the model is science (which in Zukerman's case, who follows Davydov, seems to be), is not science the product of the same (increasingly globalised) history from which neoliberalism, comunism or putinism also are products? I am everyday working as an assistant in an arts-based elementary school here in Canada and I witness and participate in enforcing practicesm that have very little to do with the progressist ideas explicitly endorsed by the school. Even though I do not want to part-take in them, it really takes a lot of work to break free from the inertia of the tasks, which are (unawarely) designed so as to require enforcement. It is a very visceral situation, being there with kids I love, and yet finding myself doing precisely what I do not want to do. I am caught in the situation. What do I need to do to break from it? I think first is the work of becoming aware not only of the fact, but the conditions that sustain the fact: the task. Next, I guess I have to realise that changing myself as an educator requires changing the tasks. We are currently working on a reflective process in which I hope to bring awareness and change to the whole staff. Does this process resemble science? Alfredo ________________________________ From: White, Phillip Sent: 03 December 2016 00:00 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" everyone - having read Zukerman's paper on how young school children learn to learn, it seems to me that the teaching strategies she promotes will not come close to alleviating the problem of neoliberalism and the hollowing out of students. as stated on page 2, "... schoolchildren must to able to compute, read, write, and, by the way, learn. This occurred in the late 1970's in the face of one in a series of technological revolutions confronting manufacturers with a new need for lifelong training." so there is the core proleptic goal of neoliberal education - students are to be educated to meet the needs of business. in my own experience of teaching - from kindergarten to graduate school - the child who is described as an independent learner is actually a compliant child. and certainly in Zukerman's examples, these children are also learning to be compliant - they are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate for the classroom. in point of fact, the last elementary school i was in for fifteen years - 2001 - 2016 - the type of teaching and questioning strategies promoted by Zukerman were practiced in every classroom. and teachers were explicitly evaluated on how close them came to a rather common mantra: Never do for a child that she can do herself. and, yes, all answers elicited through open questions were written so that all could see, and then analysed and evaluated by the students. as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning and social practices, at core there is always an ideology. here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to authority. phillip ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 8:26 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, The resonance of your answer is harmonic with my question and feels so gestating and co-generative. Learning collaboration as joint action leading [orienting receptively] to freedom in the opening of future joint action [all the way down]. Mastering one?s *relations* TO OTHERS is achieved [an ability Zukerman would say] by becoming subject AND SUBJECTING TO those relations. At the heart of our inquiries is *relations* in their polyphonic manifestations. What has just occurred here and now as an example [an exemplar?] of being carried along by the *subject matter* developing what *we* mean. Con/vivial - con/verse/ation - all the way down. MITSEIN as well-being-in-the-world- WITH- others [abbreviated or shortened to *well-being* An original and very appealing view/image on WHAT independence, or BECOMING an independent learner - means I feel heard and inspired and grateful in this spirit [value?] of friendship and fellowship unfolding in the back and forth across perspectives Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 9:40 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, how accepted one view on Vygotsky is, is something many others in this list know better than me. When I began reading Vygotsky, many here had already bee studying his original works for 30 years... I know, however, that it is easy to simplify matters one way or another. It is quite common, for example, to find published papers where Vygotskian concepts are used in ways that effectively reify cognitivist views that cognitive science itself has been trying to get rid off for long time now. Perhaps the question is not so much about how accepted a version of a legacy is, and perhaps less so how accurate that version is with the original intention, but how generative this version is for whatever we find useful pursuing. A view where joint action leads to freedom in the generation of future joint action (the turtles all the way down), and not independently of it, seems to me more promising than other versions. Although many things in this article are surely debatable, it certainly offers an original and appealing view on what independence, or becoming and independent learner means. Vygotskian historians have noted that Vygotsky often referred to Bacon's aphorism "natura parendo vincitur"... In G.Zuckerman's article, mastering one's relation to others is achieved by becoming subject and subjecting to those relations. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 02 December 2016 04:37 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, How accepted is this perspective of the Vygotskian legacy as being (intermental) through and through? The metaphor (turtles all the way down) comes to mind? This perspective opens up the ideal or the possible of learning collaboration as involving a spectrum or a layering of developmental periods that emphasize a (merging quality) but emphasizes that all the periods continue to be alive and animated. This includes the original receptivity marking the infants gestures, and imitation, and play/imaginal and learning activity as all active ingredients creating the personality. To later become reflective and acquire some degree of volition over these earlier more primordial deeper layers/spectrum of merged abilities as secondary phenomena of learning collaboration seems to occur as a derivative experience (after the experience of merger). Opens up the question of central lines for further inquiry in the back and forth. This term (intermental) seems to be a key notion for opening locked doors Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 4:19 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, this way of articulating a Vygotskian approach to learning as NOT something that simply first is external and that then becomes internal, is one of the things that most attracted me from this paper. The competences and cognitive functions that Galina describes are intermental through and through, even when she talks of a "happy end" where the competence to initiate collaboration is interiorized. This resonates quite well with an argument that Michael R. and myself have been advancing recently referring to the inter-intrasubjectivity (see e.g., MCA perezhivanie issue), although critical readers will note that we advance the argument in a way much more metaphorical than Galina's reported experiments (and being metaphorical is a fair critique, though being so may also be a good way to move forward to new concrete research programs). Another thing I like is that the article raises a question of distinguishing (or not) between relations of learner and a skilled person (may we say, an apprenticeship?) on the one hand, and between learner and *teacher* on the other. An advantage of this approach is that it allows tracing those genetic lines of development that are specific to teaching (teaching/learning) situations of the kind western schools and middle class parents sometimes exercise exhibiting and generating expectations of learning to think and solve problems independently. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 01 December 2016 21:21 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, Since you opened a new thread for the Zukerman article -in particular ? I will highlight a central question from page 17 that is organizing the article for the reader?s ability to respond. The last paragraph on page 17 opens with: Just what is learning collaboration? The answer given: It can be (understood) in two ways. It can be seen as a sort of scaffolding temporarily needed for mental development ? until children aquire the ability to apply scientific concepts INDEPENDENTLY, to frame and solve problems demanding theoretical thinking without the help of a teacher. However, learning collaboration can also be (interpreted) not as an ancillary developmental tool, not as an EXTERNAL removable support created in the course of building the mental ediface, but as an important part of this ediface, as A VALUABLE ABILITY ESSENTIAL TO HUMANS AT ANY POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE. It is this 2nd version of (learning collaboration) as a valuable (intermental ability) that continues and is universal, that this paper is highlighting for our further inquiry into Just what is learning collaboration? As an aspect of answering, Just what is education? A four way back and forth co-generation of genetic phenomenology Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: December 1, 2016 8:09 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to learn (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active force in learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the concepts (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky school: 1) As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out with the help of an adult, it is NOT independent 2) People can independently bring about collaborative (intermental action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist within the Vygotsky school. To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. As Zackerman says: Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the adult disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and purpose. The key question shifts to become: What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY structure (intermental) action. I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School exploration of developmental paths. Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration of others. Note that both alternatives are offering the key to answering -what is education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into this open question Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an educationbe?" Alfredo, ? WHAT is education. This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing stream. On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of (intermental) collaboration. Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of intermental collaboration. Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to *endure*. What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving adult as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a thing of inherent value. THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school age). So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next period emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and *enduring* form of collaboration. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education be?" Hi all, I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue 3 lead article. ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal reading of 3 articles: Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's reading of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, has to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most importantly, ?the question is also about what education could instead be as possibility, as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are necessary: we need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as much as we need a notion of what a good education could be. Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading for the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I think we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article (recently mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition brings in is, in my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for connecting the two questions posed above, the one on the facts of education and the one on possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter question on possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability to learn is. She writes: "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what abilities children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular developmental potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm in childhood development" Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and the desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are *educability* and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies in the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for many reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on age that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses the connection between communication and generalization, a connection that became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and generalization, in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the "internalisation" way of languaging it). The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. Alfredo -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DB2302417F184EF2A25C14133C65283C.png Type: image/png Size: 234 bytes Desc: DB2302417F184EF2A25C14133C65283C.png Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161204/82e8c71c/attachment.png From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Dec 3 23:57:01 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 23:57:01 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "whatwouldaneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com>, <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no>, <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no>, <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com>, <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no>, <5842d21a.0370630a.6214.05f6@mx.google.com> , <584329bf.02c4620a.5fcc6.3dd6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5843cc66.0174630a.59290.e004@mx.google.com> Here is the quote from Stephen H Watson, in his book Tradition(s) Refiguring Community and Virtue in Classical German Thought. Thus we can see how closely the problem of interpretation accompanies the question of traditionality (as such). We stand then not only, to use Ardent?s terms, between past and future, but equally, again to use Foucault?s terms, (between tradition and oblivion), divided between remembrance and anticipation, coherence and critique, the canons of tradition and the demands for creative invention and current relevance. This may be going off track from the Zuckerman article, so i will pause and turn back to the Vygotsky School and its tradition(s) exploring the intermental being worked out by Margaret and Carrie. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: White, Phillip Sent: December 3, 2016 8:56 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "whatwouldaneducationbe?" Larry, i have no idea what Foucault means here in the reference you came across. my regrets, phillip From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 1:23:03 PM To: White, Phillip; Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what wouldaneducationbe?" ? Phillip, I recently came across a reference to ?Foucault saying that the relational movement back and forth ?occurs between (tradition and oblivion). With Mike?s reference to Benjamin?s angel looking back at history? ?and being blown toward what can feel like oblivion, there is still the image of the angel between. ?This movement/transition seems to express powerful currents in which the angel seems transfixed. Is Foucault saying the answer lies in moving between tradition and oblivion and not becoming transfixed? in either polarity? Each in the other? Resuming the Zuckerman focus on (able to learn through learning collaboration). She is positing the virtue of a teacher whose relation to a learner is to (hold back) ?the learner from moving to an end product and refocus on orientating to (the means) necessary for boundary crossing. The means are intermental. (mitsein). Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: White, Phillip Sent: December 3, 2016 9:08 AM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what wouldaneducationbe?" dear all ?- ?it was not my intention to suggest that the model for teaching is in itself neoliberal, but rather the author's stated goal for my these teaching strategies are necessary. check out Foucault's "Discipline and Punish", particularly the section on disciplined bodies. ? but no, this model is not inherently so. ? like all tools, it can be used for different goals. ?a hammer can be used to construct the frame of a house, or commit murder. phillip From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 7:09:06 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; White, Phillip; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" ? Phillip, Alfredo, and others focused on Zuckerman?s article which orients and moves us to transition to the concept of intermental learning collaboration all the way down. Is her model (inherently) neoliberal or is her model being *put* in the service of the neoliberal? The model she presents ?of layers and merging of layers that may be put in the service of more dialogical intermental education as learning collaboration. A key term is *able to learn* and on page 23 & 24 she unpacks what this means: In her words ? when learning goes beyond *infecting* someone an ability the way that toddlers learn to talk, dress, and play. (LP -layer 2 the imitative) Here is Zuckerman?s explication of going beyond layer 2 as merger or fusion with layer 4 that is developing: ? Teachers ?are also needed by learners so that, on ?the boundary between learning and doing, between orientation and doing, learners can be (held back) in a state of orientation and not allowed to pursue a result (LP ? end) without paying attention to the way that result is being (attained). Teachers have only one demand: For children to clarify in their own minds whether or not they have assimilated the (means) of action or need to continue their learning. In other words the focus of joint learner-teacher action (LP -intermental) is the boundary of the learner?s competence and the means for *crossing* that boundary (LP ? together). Learning to go beyond the boundary of one?s own capabilities, beyond the boundary of a particular situation ? THAT IS the meaning of being *able to learn* This model of being able to learn may be put in the service of neoliberalism. However is that inherently so? My turn is up. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 2, 2016 3:40 PM To: White, Phillip; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Phillip, interesting thoughts. ?Made me think of my ongoing experience at an elementary school (below). I also felt uneasy in the way Zukerman phrased some aspects of teaching/learning, and most of all, I did not understand why she talked about students learning, but not about teachers learning: teachers do also learn and develop (change!) in and through teaching/learning situations (and become better or worse teachers). But there is something concerning "compliance" that I do not get from your argument. You say that in Galina's examples, "children are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate"? ... and then I wonder, is not this inherent to any educational situation? This is certainly what happens in many homes, including my own. Indeed, deeming something appropriate seems to be necessary to be able to decide what kind of education we want, right? Or should we deem as inappropriate that people expect other people to do what they feel/believe is appropriate? But yes, another question is, what type of relations do we want to engage into, what culture do we want?. After all, if the model is science (which in Zukerman's case, who follows Davydov, seems to be), is not science the product of the same (increasingly globalised) history from which neoliberalism, comunism or putinism also are products? I am everyday working as an assistant in an arts-based elementary school here in Canada and I witness and participate in enforcing practicesm that have very little to do with the progressist ideas explicitly endorsed by the school. Even though I do not want to part-take in them, it really takes a lot of work to break free from the inertia of the tasks, which are (unawarely) designed so as to require enforcement. It is a very visceral situation, being there with kids I love, and yet finding myself doing precisely what I do not want to do. I am caught in the situation. What do I need to do to break from it? I think first is the work of becoming aware not only of the fact, but the conditions that sustain the fact: the task. Next, I guess I have to realise that changing myself as an educator requires changing the tasks. We are currently working on a reflective process in which I hope to bring awareness and change to the whole staff. Does this process resemble science? Alfredo ________________________________ From: White, Phillip Sent: 03 December 2016 00:00 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" everyone? -? having read Zukerman's paper on how young school children learn to learn, it seems to me that the teaching strategies she promotes will not come close to alleviating the problem of neoliberalism and the hollowing out of students.? as stated on page 2, "... schoolchildren must to able to compute, read, write, and, by the way, learn.? This occurred in the late 1970's in the face of one in a series of technological revolutions confronting manufacturers with a new need for lifelong training." so there is the core proleptic goal of neoliberal education - students are to be educated to meet the needs of business. in my own experience of teaching - from kindergarten to graduate school - the child who is described as an independent learner is actually a compliant child.? and certainly in Zukerman's examples, these children are also learning to be compliant - they are expected to demonstrate learning behaviours that the teacher deems appropriate for the classroom. in point of fact, the last elementary school i was in for fifteen years - 2001 - 2016 - the type of teaching and questioning strategies promoted by Zukerman were practiced in every classroom.? and teachers were explicitly evaluated on how close them came to a rather common mantra: Never do for a child that she can do herself.? and, yes, all answers elicited through open questions were written so that all could see, and then analysed and evaluated by the students. as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning and social practices, at core there is always an ideology. here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to authority. phillip ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 8:26 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, The resonance of your answer is harmonic with my question and feels so gestating and co-generative. Learning collaboration as joint action leading [orienting receptively] to freedom in the opening of future joint action [all the way down]. Mastering one?s *relations* TO OTHERS is achieved [an ability Zukerman would say]? by becoming subject AND SUBJECTING TO those relations. At the heart of our inquiries is *relations* in their polyphonic manifestations. What has just occurred here and now as an example [an exemplar?] of being carried along by the *subject matter* developing what *we* mean. Con/vivial? -? con/verse/ation?? - all the way down. MITSEIN as well-being-in-the-world- WITH- others [abbreviated or shortened to *well-being* An original and very appealing view/image on WHAT independence, or BECOMING an independent learner - means I feel heard and inspired and grateful in this spirit [value?] of friendship and fellowship unfolding in the back and forth across perspectives Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 9:40 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, how accepted one view on Vygotsky is, is something many others in this list know better than me. When I began reading Vygotsky, many here had already bee studying his original works for 30 years... I know, however, that it is easy to simplify matters one way or another. It is quite common, for example, to find published papers where Vygotskian concepts are used in ways that effectively reify cognitivist views that cognitive science itself has been trying to get rid off for long time now. Perhaps the question is not so much about how accepted a version of a legacy is, and perhaps less so how accurate that version is with the original intention, but how generative this version is for whatever we find useful pursuing. A view where joint action leads to freedom in the generation of future joint action (the turtles all the way down), and not independently of it, seems to me more promising than other versions. Although many things in this article are surely debatable, it certainly offers an original and appealing view on what independence, or becoming and independent learner means. Vygotskian historians have noted that Vygotsky often referred to Bacon's aphorism "natura parendo vincitur"... In G.Zuckerman's article, mastering one's relation to others is achieved by becoming subject and subjecting to those relations. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 02 December 2016 04:37 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, How accepted is this perspective of the Vygotskian legacy as being (intermental) through and through? The metaphor (turtles all the way down) comes to mind? This perspective opens up the ideal or the possible of learning collaboration as involving a spectrum or a layering of developmental periods that emphasize a (merging quality) but emphasizes that all the periods continue to be alive and animated. This includes the original receptivity marking the infants gestures, and imitation, and play/imaginal and learning activity as all active? ingredients creating the personality. To later become reflective and acquire some degree of volition over these earlier? more primordial deeper layers/spectrum of merged abilities as secondary phenomena of? learning collaboration seems to occur as a derivative experience (after the experience of merger). Opens up the question of central lines for further inquiry in the back and forth. This term (intermental) seems to be a key notion for opening locked doors Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 1, 2016 4:19 PM To: lpscholar2@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Larry, this way of articulating a Vygotskian approach to learning as NOT something that simply first is external and that then becomes internal, is one of the things that most attracted me from this paper. The competences and cognitive functions that Galina describes are intermental through and through, even when she talks of a "happy end" where the competence to initiate collaboration is interiorized. This resonates quite well with an argument that Michael R. and myself have been advancing recently referring to the inter-intrasubjectivity (see e.g., MCA perezhivanie issue), although critical readers will note that we advance the argument in a way much more metaphorical than Galina's reported experiments (and being metaphorical is a fair critique, though being so may? also be a good way to move forward to new concrete research programs). Another thing I like is that the article raises a question of distinguishing (or not) between relations of learner and a skilled person (may we say, an apprenticeship?) on the one hand, and between learner and *teacher* on the other. An advantage of this approach is that it allows tracing those genetic lines of development that are specific to teaching (teaching/learning) situations of the kind western schools and middle class parents sometimes exercise exhibiting and generating expectations of learning to think and solve problems independently. Alfredo From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: 01 December 2016 21:21 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, Since you opened a new thread for the Zukerman article -in particular ? I will highlight? a central question from page 17 that is organizing the article for the reader?s ability to respond. The last paragraph on page 17 opens with: Just what is learning collaboration? The answer given: It can be (understood) in two ways. It can be seen as a sort of scaffolding temporarily needed for mental development ? until children aquire the ability to apply scientific concepts INDEPENDENTLY, to frame and solve problems demanding theoretical thinking without the help of a teacher. However, learning collaboration can also be (interpreted) not as an ancillary developmental tool, not as an EXTERNAL removable support created in the course of building the mental ediface, but as an important part of this ediface, as? A VALUABLE ABILITY ESSENTIAL TO HUMANS AT ANY POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE. It is this 2nd version of (learning collaboration) as a valuable (intermental ability) that continues and is universal, that this paper is highlighting for our further inquiry into Just what is learning collaboration? As an aspect of answering, Just what is education? A four way back and forth co-generation of genetic phenomenology Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: December 1, 2016 8:09 AM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" Alfredo, A central notion of the article hinges on when a person shifts from educability (being the ready objects of education) TO the ability to learn (being able to exercise subjectivity/agency and becoming an active force in learning activity -becoming a subject of learning. Now in order to pinpoint the birth of a subject (able to learn independently) this paper examines two possible relations of the concepts (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky school: 1)????? As long as an action remains (intermental) and is carried out with the help of an adult, it is NOT independent 2)????? People can independently bring about? collaborative (intermental action) that they are NOT able to carry out individually. A lot (hinges) on these two contrasting notions of being a subject of learning and carrying out something independently. Both versions exist within the Vygotsky school. To put the (value) on the intermental is to also play with notions of intercorporeality and intersubjectivity. As Zackerman says: Children?s independence is usually understood as the ability to act without an adult?s help as the end of the (int?riorisation) of an action.... When this occurs, their (intermental) interaction with the adult disappears, having served its purpose. This INTERPRETATION treats independent action as synonymous with (intramental) action. This paper questions this sens of (independence) as a concept, goal, and purpose. The key question shifts to become: What enables the emergence of a child?s ability to INDEPENDENTLY structure (intermental) action. I will pause with this open question at the heart of the Vygotsky School exploration of developmental paths. Where does (independence) exist? ? intramental phenomena as interiorization or intermental phenomena as enlisting the collaboration of others. Note that both alternatives? are offering the key to answering -what is education? May need a transversal back and forth to inquire deeper into this open question Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: November 30, 2016 5:04 PM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an educationbe?" Alfredo, ? WHAT is education. This fourth paper contributing to our emerging answer in the flowing stream. On page 9 see figure 1 on periodization of leading forms of (intermental) collaboration. Notice that earlier forms are continuing as *enduring* forms of intermental collaboration. Therefore the leading intermental collaboration of infancy continues to *endure*. What is this enduring quality from infancy? The chart says: The immediate-emotional communication between the child and a loving adult as a UNIVERSAL source of warmth, care, understanding, benevolence, protection, and the acceptance of the child?s unique existence as a thing of inherent value. THIS universal intermental collaboration EXTENDS into the other 3 periodization?s. (early childhood, preschool childhood, and young school age). So indicates the diagram of periodization on page 9. This awareness may become lost or misplaced as we focus on the next period emerging which *merges* with this earliest intermental and *enduring* form of collaboration. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: November 30, 2016 12:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would an education be?" Hi all, I am responding to Larry's last post on the "social science is busted" thread, and in continuation with the discussions sparked by MCA's Issue 3 lead article. ?In those discussions, we have come to, as Larry puts it, a transversal reading of 3 articles:? Margaret and Carrie's on hollowed out science identities, Peter's on practical concepts, and Lave and McDermott's reading of Marx's estranged labor in terms of estranged learning. A common thread tying the 3 articles together, as Larry identifies it, has to do with ?the question, *what is education?* Perhaps most importantly, ?the question is also about what education could instead be as possibility, as a *desirable* possibility. Obviously both questions are necessary: we need to have a notion of what goes on in schools now as much as we need a notion of what a good education could be. Now, while reading 3 articles transversely already is a lot of reading for the regular mortal (though nothing uncommon for the scholar avis), I think we would gain a lot by adding Galina Zuckerman's recent article (recently mentioned by Mike) to the reading list. What this addition brings in is, in my view, what to me sounds like the initial step needed for connecting the two questions posed above, the one on the facts of education and the one on possibilities. Zuckerman does so connecting the latter question on possibilities to a scientific inquiry into what the ability to learn is. She writes: "The question of what values to prioritize, particularly the question of which abilities should be developed in children of a given age, is not a question for science. Developmental psychology can tell us what abilities children are capable of developing at a particular age. Pedagogical psychology can instruct us in how to actualize a particular developmental potential: what educational and childrearing conditions are required for the achievement of potential developmental abilities to become the norm in childhood development" Taking a route that goes across this intersection of the possible and the desirable, and reflecting on common reform efforts to foster students' self-regulation and their ability to learn, Galina asks: are *educability* and *the ability to learn* the same thing? For her, the difference lies in the following: to be easily educable students need to become objects of learning; to become able to learn, they need to become subjects. I think Galina's article will proof relevant to many in this list for many reasons. One such reason is that she takes a thoroughly Vygotskian perspective on these matters, and I love that she never speaks of individual skills or knowledge but keeps talking of ability to engage and/or initiate interaction. Her approach is not only non-individualist, but also developmental: it takes into account many of the concerns on age that have been raised in recent xMCA discussions. And it even discusses the connection between communication and generalization, a connection that became relevant to this list few weeks ago, when David K. shared one of Vygotsky's last lectures (by the way, here Galina makes a case for the non-adequacy of distinguishing the two, communication and generalization, in terms of an external/internal dichotomy; she explicitly rejects the "internalisation" way of languaging it). The article is attached and shared here as part of xmca's ?educational ?mission and is to be used for that purpose ?only. Alfredo -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 9BFDAEBF3B6349D9A5F8BEA9400EED4F.png Type: image/png Size: 213 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161203/b1cedbf5/attachment.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: BF079603FB6648998BD472D98165A7B3.png Type: image/png Size: 310 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161203/b1cedbf5/attachment-0001.png From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Dec 4 11:14:13 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 11:14:13 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: <4941A004-42BE-4BFE-9162-A277710F31ED@umich.edu> References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> <1DE83503-218D-4E0B-BD80-C4852B990209@umich.edu> <4941A004-42BE-4BFE-9162-A277710F31ED@umich.edu> Message-ID: Hi Molly -- The messages have comes frequently and complexly I missed a real response to your call to examine the positive models provided by Megan that stretched from classroom to community groups and look for all the world like great science education. A positive alternative. Phillip mentioned a school he work for 15 years that appeared, from the brief description, to embody the kinds of principles being invoked here as an alternative to the neo-liberal model of education-as-commodity. I am wondering, Phillip, if there is any description of the conditions that made the creation of an alternative educational practice in a command-and-control political economy possible? What conditions sustained them? I would add the Salt Lake City school written about by Barbara Rogoff and colleagues as an institutionalized alternative. I also think the lines of research that Carrie (I believe) referred to as models are important but I am always curious about the infrastructure that enables those models to happen in in the first place and the process of repair/renewal/keeping on keeping on. This is the line that my colleagues and followed in the FifthDimension and subsequent projects. Here there appear to be a number of candidates. I guess this is a question about the social ecology of an alternative form of education that embodies the values that go along with a socio-cultural-historical-activity sort a theory. This interest goes along with Phillip's earlier comment as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning and soocial practices, at core there is always an ideology. here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to authority. So the question becomes, i think, is how are we to understand local sociocultural ecologies that permit us to carry out the kind of education we think maximizes the kind of values that organize our image of our children's future worlds. Galina faced that problem under soviet rule and under oligarchic capitalism, we face it under Trumpism. The folks in Singapore live it. In short: Under what conditions is it possible to institutionalize alternatives? mike (Apologies for font messups) On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > Molly > > This does look like an excellent book. I was just looking at her > article and missed this. > > Many thanks!! > > Ed > > > On Dec 2, 2016, at 6:11 PM, molly shea wrote: > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > Megan Bang and Doug Medin wrote an excellent book on Science Education: > > https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/whos-asking > > > > *Overview* > > The answers to scientific questions depend on who?s asking, because the > > questions asked and the answers sought reflect the cultural values and > > orientations of the questioner. These values and orientations are most > > often those of Western science. In Who?s Asking?, Douglas Medin and Megan > > Bang argue that despite the widely held view that science is objective, > > value-neutral, and acultural, scientists do not shed their cultures at > the > > laboratory or classroom door; their practices reflect their values, > belief > > systems, and worldviews. Medin and Bang argue further that scientist > > diversity?the participation of researchers and educators with different > > cultural orientations?provides new perspectives and leads to more > effective > > science and better science education. > > > > Medin and Bang compare Native American and European American orientations > > toward the natural world and apply these findings to science education. > The > > European American model, they find, sees humans as separated from nature; > > the Native American model sees humans as part of a natural ecosystem. > Medin > > and Bang then report on the development of ecologically oriented and > > community-based science education programs on the Menominee reservation > in > > Wisconsin and at the American Indian Center of Chicago. Medin and Bang?s > > novel argument for scientist diversity also has important implications > for > > questions of minority underrepresentation in science. > > > > Thanks, > > Molly Shea > > > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > > > >> Carrie > >> > >> My read of Barton?s publications is that she is using the Maker > >> movement as a platform as regards issues of equity and science taken > >> broadly. Is this a fair read or are there other important factors I am > >> missing?? > >> > >> My read of a nice paper published by Jessica Thompson and others in > >> TCR is that she sees what she terms as 'rigor and responsiveness? as the > >> key element. In my words - not hers - key is respect for the discipline > >> (rigor) and key is respect for each other (responsiveness). Is this a > fair > >> read or are there other important factors I am missing? > >> > >> Megan Bang seems less in the the science/math loop although she just > >> may not have published much in this area. I did see one paper that, one > >> might say, addressed what some would term ethnomathematics. > >> > >> However, I see nothing in the work of these researchers in the > discipline > >> of mathematics per se. Perhaps you could point me in the right > direction? > >> > >> Here is why I?m asking. Just assume that I am a dumb mathematics > educator > >> (which I am - smile) and I wish to help those I teach (which I do) - > i.e. > >> those who will be elementary and secondary mathematics teachers - in > >> somehow implementing something like rigor and responsiveness.? I do > >> understand that curriculum and teaching are intertwined, but I also know > >> that teachers enact curriculum and may or may not choose make room for > >> responsiveness (that was also a point in the Thompson article). Now it > is > >> possible that all my students will, on their own and in their own > >> classrooms, develop substantial notions of rigor and responsiveness, > but it > >> is possible that some might struggle. What experiences might I and > others > >> design to help those that struggle; for instance, what constitutes rigor > >> (one can certainly be under or over rigorous). Likewise, what > constitutes > >> responsiveness (one certainly doesn?t need to talk to be responsive). > Often > >> people such as I do have relations with those, say, in mathematics, > child > >> development, and educational philosophy (among others). But, perhaps you > >> don?t see this as happening in the college classroom, but during > teaching > >> itself. This still raises the interesting question as to what should > occur > >> in the college classroom (although some would just abolish such > classrooms, > >> perhaps understandably). Maybe it is too soon to ask such a question, > but > >> until it is answered in some pragmatic fashion, dumb mathematics > educators > >> such as myself will continue muddle to the benefit of none and, perhaps, > >> detriment of all. > >> > >> Ed Wall > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Dec 1, 2016, at 3:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in regarding > >> other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and science. > >> First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying to > >> suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow ideas > >> about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There are > >> certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s > work at > >> Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s work > at > >> the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and > >> normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young > people in > >> the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math > and > >> science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense > of > >> the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who > utilize > >> the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, > >> questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced ways > of > >> being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means by > >> which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not entirely > sure > >> how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are > >> ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. > >>> STEM Researcher > >>> SRI International > >>> Center for Technology in Learning > >>> > >>> > >>> (650) 859-5262 > >>> Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 > >>> Skype: carrie.allen_9 > >>> > >>> On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of > >> lpscholar2@gmail.com" >> lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a > >> particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. > >>> This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes > >> approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our > >> inquiry. > >>> This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of learning. > >>> > >>> Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be > >> foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. > >>> > >>> > >>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>> > >>> From: Edward Wall > >>> Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>> > >>> Larry > >>> > >>> There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I?m > >> not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics > >>> > >>> 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) > >>> 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a teacher at > >> one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). > >>> 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 > >>> 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the > >> Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the > evidence > >> isn?t clear) > >>> > >>> Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is put > >> off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; > >> however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey > >> recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according to > >> some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this > is a > >> bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling > for > >> the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). > >>> > >>> Ed > >>> > >>>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: > >>>> > >>>> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates > >> (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it possible > we > >> are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or > >> historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation that > were > >> not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or incarnate > >> deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. > >>>> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural imaginaries) > >> that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture well-being? > >>>> > >>>> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>>> > >>>> From: Huw Lloyd > >>>> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>>> > >>>> Alfredo, > >>>> > >>>> Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems > >> inherent > >>>> in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues can be > >>>> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that can > be > >>>> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for > "good > >>>> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real > >> problem > >>>> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like Davydov's > >>>> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". > There > >>>> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important > >>>> implications. > >>>> > >>>> Best, > >>>> Huw > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Huw, > >>>>> > >>>>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, social) > >>>>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the > >> formation > >>>>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all educational > >>>>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather should > be > >>>>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, *pathological* > >> (or > >>>>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and > >>>>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some young > >>>>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was > Mike > >> who > >>>>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question is, > >> will > >>>>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the double > >> bind > >>>>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only include > the > >>>>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a higher > >> order > >>>>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to > grow > >>>>> rather than come to stall). > >>>>> > >>>>> Alfredo > >>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu > >>> > >>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd > >>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 > >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>>>> > >>>>> Alfredo, > >>>>> > >>>>> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is > >> another > >>>>> matter. > >>>>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, because > >> there > >>>>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is > educational > >> -- > >>>>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an Illich > >>>>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it > just > >>>>> takes a different course. > >>>>> > >>>>> Best, > >>>>> Huw > >>>>> > >>>>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates to > >> this > >>>>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to > >>>>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, that > >>>>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between > >> two, > >>>>> not > >>>>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and > >>>>> Phillip's > >>>>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as all > >> we > >>>>> do. > >>>>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have > wonderfully > >>>>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in > maths, > >>>>> but > >>>>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever > that > >>>>> best > >>>>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and context > >> that > >>>>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives > and > >>>>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it so > >> that > >>>>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, > >> according > >>>>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a > >> hollowed-out > >>>>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had > >> illusion > >>>>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities to > >>>>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but > >> also a > >>>>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown in > >>>>> people > >>>>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we > >> have a > >>>>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? Not > >> just > >>>>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> edu> > >>>>>> on behalf of White, Phillip > >>>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>>>>> > >>>>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these > >>>>> examples > >>>>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at where > >> she > >>>>> is > >>>>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a > looking > >>>>> back > >>>>>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then > setting > >> a > >>>>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, > so > >>>>> yeah, > >>>>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of > present > >>>>>> activities to attain future goals. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely on > >>>>> their > >>>>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all > >> about > >>>>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people > >> like me > >>>>>> do. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in > >> this > >>>>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> phillip > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> edu> > >>>>>> on behalf of David Kellogg > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty > >> mental > >>>>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles I > >> have > >>>>> a > >>>>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing > rather > >>>>> than > >>>>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is > >>>>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense of > >> some > >>>>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on tenses, > >> and > >>>>> the > >>>>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in and > >> out > >>>>> of > >>>>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the > way > >>>>> the > >>>>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see > >>>>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at what > >> the > >>>>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this > >> simply > >>>>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take simple > >>>>> present > >>>>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it > >> because > >>>>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the > >>>>> figured > >>>>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is youth? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very > >> much a > >>>>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" you > >>>>> often > >>>>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? > >>>>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to > >> find > >>>>> out > >>>>>> if anybody really cares. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: > >> both > >>>>> the > >>>>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of > >> statistical > >>>>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the > morning > >>>>> after > >>>>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of > those > >>>>> black > >>>>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but > couldn't > >> be > >>>>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class voters" > >> who > >>>>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North > >> Carolina > >>>>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently > knowing > >> how > >>>>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented > as > >>>>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would > be > >>>>> part > >>>>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that > use > >>>>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the > >> impossible > >>>>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times > without > >>>>> any > >>>>>> memory at all). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together you > >>>>> notice > >>>>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your > >>>>> question, > >>>>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend to > >>>>> change > >>>>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On the > >> one > >>>>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too > >> wholly > >>>>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of these > >>>>> moments > >>>>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in > >>>>> itself. > >>>>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and > >> objects > >>>>> in > >>>>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>>> Macquarie University > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD > > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> David, > >>>>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this > topic, > >>>>> but > >>>>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection > between > >>>>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged?interactants > >>>>> view > >>>>>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is > >>>>> largely > >>>>>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians as > >>>>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be > interesting > >>>>> to > >>>>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each > >>>>> other > >>>>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of > >> connecting > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to > >>>>> clarify > >>>>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential > elections, > >>>>> and > >>>>>>> what not. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and Halliday > >> on > >>>>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in > ?basic > >>>>>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has > >> said > >>>>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As > you?d > >>>>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what > he > >>>>>> calls > >>>>>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain > >> is > >>>>>> more > >>>>>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he analyzes > >>>>> tense > >>>>>>> and aspect. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar > has > >> a > >>>>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage > >> based, > >>>>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I > think > >>>>>> there > >>>>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m > not > >>>>>> smart > >>>>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection > must > >>>>> be > >>>>>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? > ethnographers > >>>>> are > >>>>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is > raising > >>>>>> this > >>>>>>> issue. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with > the > >>>>>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that > >> the > >>>>>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may say > >>>>> that > >>>>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school > >> was > >>>>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I got > >> to > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin > >> under > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in > Chapter 8 > >>>>> of > >>>>>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I?ll end it there. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Henry > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Henry: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and > >>>>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the > >>>>>>> different > >>>>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker > somehow > >>>>>> sees > >>>>>>> it > >>>>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space > within > >>>>>>> space). > >>>>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and > >>>>>>> happenings. > >>>>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's > >>>>>>> temporally > >>>>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that > >>>>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either > >>>>> proleptically > >>>>>> or > >>>>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article > we > >>>>>> are > >>>>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three > >>>>> weeks > >>>>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has > been > >>>>>>> (past) > >>>>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me > >>>>> that > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That > is, > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more > >> and > >>>>>>> less > >>>>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example > >> in > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the > >>>>> task > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, > the > >>>>>>> scope, > >>>>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science > identities > >>>>> and > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this > >>>>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed > out a > >>>>>>> little > >>>>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the > damn > >>>>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing > the > >>>>>>> other: > >>>>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some > task > >>>>>> that > >>>>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space > >>>>> and > >>>>>>> not > >>>>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way > you > >>>>>> dig > >>>>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the > >>>>>>> article: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans", > >>>>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP > classes) > >>>>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or > what > >>>>>>> Eckhart > >>>>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', > >>>>>> 'gangbangers') > >>>>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and > what > >>>>>> they > >>>>>>>> think about themselves) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are > >>>>>>> probably > >>>>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really > do > >>>>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). > >> Different > >>>>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of > the > >>>>>>> school > >>>>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers > and > >>>>>>> groups > >>>>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's > >>>>>> always > >>>>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the > >>>>> data > >>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against > what > >>>>> is > >>>>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of > >>>>>>>> intervention is. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured > by > >>>>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that > just > >>>>> an > >>>>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words > (although > >>>>>> maybe > >>>>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds > for > >>>>>>> hope? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own > >>>>>>> *history*, > >>>>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* > >> it > >>>>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances > >> existing > >>>>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of > all > >>>>>> dead > >>>>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living." > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a > >>>>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>>>>> Macquarie University > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD < > hshonerd@gmail.com> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> All, > >>>>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I > >>>>> wanted > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera > John-Steiner > >>>>> and > >>>>>>> her > >>>>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating > Mathematics: > >>>>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers > to > >>>>>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within > >> these > >>>>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and > >>>>> Reuben?s > >>>>>>> book > >>>>>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real (working) > >>>>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we > call > >>>>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching > >> of > >>>>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and > could > >>>>> be > >>>>>>>>> relevant to this discussion. > >>>>>>>>> Henry > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd < > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Dear Margaret > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave > it > >>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous > term > >>>>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments > >> about > >>>>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place > of > >>>>>>>>> identity. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of > >>>>> "model > >>>>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM > subjects > >>>>>> would > >>>>>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with > >>>>> identifying > >>>>>>>>> with > >>>>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to > >> find > >>>>>>> out" > >>>>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is > >>>>>>>>> foregrounded > >>>>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background > >>>>> social > >>>>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at > >> the > >>>>>>> role > >>>>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about > >>>>>>> unknowns. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set > of > >>>>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such > >> that > >>>>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable > within > >>>>>> these > >>>>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with > the > >>>>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Best, > >>>>>>>>>> Huw > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < > >>>>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for > the > >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed > Out.? > >>>>>> We > >>>>>>>>> also > >>>>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream > >> of > >>>>>>>>>>> thinking here! > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas > >> about > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we would > >>>>> like > >>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students > >>>>> were > >>>>>>>>> making > >>>>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them > >>>>>> through > >>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured > >>>>>> worlds > >>>>>>>>> are > >>>>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us > >>>>> reflected > >>>>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty > >>>>> serious > >>>>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what > >>>>> theories > >>>>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of > >>>>> ?exemplars? > >>>>>>> we > >>>>>>>>>>> might turn to. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < > >>>>> lpscholar2@gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably > sens > >>>>> as > >>>>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning > >> and > >>>>>>>>> sense) > >>>>>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. > >>>>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of > (hollowed-out) > >>>>>>> meaning > >>>>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for > >>>>>>> developing a > >>>>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. > >>>>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of > >>>>> social > >>>>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about improving > >>>>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of > the > >>>>>>> study > >>>>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary > >>>>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, > can > >>>>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section > >> (identity-in-context) > >>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured > worlds). > >>>>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of > history-in-person. > >>>>>> That > >>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of > >> person > >>>>>> one > >>>>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. > >>>>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the > >>>>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries > >> (figured > >>>>>>>>> worlds) > >>>>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local > practices > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are > >>>>>>>>> recognized > >>>>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological > >>>>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* > >> to > >>>>>>>>> *what* > >>>>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we > >>>>> take. > >>>>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn > >>>>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper > >> ethical > >>>>>>> turn > >>>>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as > >> well > >>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as > >>>>>> beacons > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the > >>>>> neoliberal > >>>>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from > >>>>> their > >>>>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>> Re-started > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might > send > >>>>>> them > >>>>>>>>>>>> here: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web > >>>>> site > >>>>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to > >> implement. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> mike > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > >>>>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and > >>>>>> Science > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret > >>>>>>> Eisenhart > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so during > >> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I > >> shared > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> link > >>>>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion > to > >> a > >>>>>>> halt > >>>>>>>>>>>>> until > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret > and > >>>>>>> Carrie > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, > but > >> I > >>>>>>> also > >>>>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves > as > >>>>>> soon > >>>>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a > discussion > >>>>> of > >>>>>> an > >>>>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An > >>>>> American > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark > >> day > >>>>>> for > >>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some > >>>>> grounds > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home > >>>>> now, > >>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike > >>>>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of > >>>>> mind" > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> that > >>>>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal > >>>>>>>>>>>>> organisation of > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to > >>>>> Trump's > >>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of > >> everyday > >>>>>>> life. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on > >>>>> women's > >>>>>>>>>>>>> scholar > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to > the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I > >>>>> hope > >>>>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> edu> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of > those > >>>>>>> still > >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins > us > >>>>>> next > >>>>>>>>>>>>> week! > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> edu> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would > be > >>>>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance > at > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade > >>>>> into > >>>>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have > until > >>>>>> next > >>>>>>>>>>>>> week > >>>>>>>>>>>>> to think about it. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to > >>>>> catch > >>>>>>> up! > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> mike > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip > >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that > the > >>>>>> data > >>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was > the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> processes > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the > >>>>>>>>> externally > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study > using > >>>>>>>>>>>>> theories > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your > >>>>>> position. > >>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> you > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if you > >>>>> are > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point > >> (in > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> case > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, > but > >> I > >>>>>>> think > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it > >> could > >>>>>> be > >>>>>>>>>>>>> traced > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the > adult > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? that > >>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>>> narrative > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather > >>>>> could > >>>>>>> be > >>>>>>>>>>>>> traced > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in > >>>>> particular > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american > >>>>> education > >>>>>>>>>>>>> began? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen > >>>>> study, > >>>>>>> what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> phillip > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning > >> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sense. I > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes > >>>>> *direction* > >>>>>>>>>>>>> within > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of > >> depends > >>>>>> on > >>>>>>>>>>>>> where > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you > and > >>>>>> me) > >>>>>>>>>>>>> way of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical > >>>>> ways > >>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>> being > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the > >>>>>> *historical-in-person*. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the > description > >>>>> of > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing > >>>>>> circumstances* > >>>>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article says: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other > >>>>>> Sociocultural > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that > >>>>> is, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> learning > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a > >>>>>> particular > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not stable or > >>>>>> fixed. > >>>>>>>>> As > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too > may > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & > >> Skinner, > >>>>>>>>> 1997). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity > processes > >>>>>> that > >>>>>>>>>>>>> start > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are > *external* > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the > >>>>>> importance > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or > primordially > >>>>> to > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a > gap > >>>>> in > >>>>>>> our > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* > >>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> highly > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in > actual*ity. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, > >>>>>> unsure > >>>>>>>>>>>>> where > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" > >>>>>>> questions > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be > working > >>>>>> on. > >>>>>>> In > >>>>>>>>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a > moment > >>>>>> which > >>>>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big > >>>>>> Bang. > >>>>>>>>> But > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start > >>>>> (the > >>>>>>> Big > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bang > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention > the > >>>>>>> origins > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> life). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just > >>>>>>> thoughtfully > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sent > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper > leaves > >> a > >>>>>>>>> really > >>>>>>>>>>>>> big > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap > is > >>>>>>>>> largely > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, > >>>>> 'identity' > >>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to > be > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sustained." > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good student, > >>>>>> though > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> excitement, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> or > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." > (193) > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm > >>>>>> confident', > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted in > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> context > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, > their > >>>>>>>>>>>>> statements > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for > >>>>>> being > >>>>>>>>>>>>> good > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity > >>>>> characteristics > >>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>> being > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work > quickly, > >>>>> do > >>>>>> it > >>>>>>>>>>>>> without > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." > >>>>> (193) > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by > >>>>>>> society", > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context > >> of > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> figured > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to > go > >>>>>>>>> against > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's > >>>>>> views > >>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that > >> contradicts > >>>>>> my > >>>>>>>>>>>>> data: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the > >>>>>> theory > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also > >>>>> don't > >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I > think > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>>> word > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and > >>>>> engagement > >>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> much > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter > easily, > >>>>> do > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> work > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than > >>>>> others > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> get > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is > >>>>>>> actually > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "I" > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking > >>>>>> about, > >>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation > >>>>> between > >>>>>>>>>>>>> their > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the > activity > >>>>> at > >>>>>>>>> hand > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world > >> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a > good > >>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in > >>>>> both > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and > "you" > >>>>>>>>>>>>> relationship > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I > >>>>> can > >>>>>>> make > >>>>>>>>>>>>> up > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly > >>>>>>>>>>>>> if > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number > and > >>>>> a > >>>>>>>>> class > >>>>>>>>>>>>> over > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the > >>>>>> interpersonal > >>>>>>>>>>>>> somehow > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me > like a > >>>>>>>>> strange > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) > somewhere > >>>>>>> between > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, > but > >> I > >>>>>>> think > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can > >>>>> probably > >>>>>>> find > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to > >>>>>>> (Vygotsky) > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language > at > >>>>>> one > >>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) > the > >>>>>>> moment > >>>>>>>>>>>>> when > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying > >> clauses > >>>>>>> ("I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can > >>>>> pull > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>>> off") > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, > >>>>> which > >>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>>> now > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< > >>>>>> http://www.tandfonline > >>>>>>> . > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful > >>>>> paper > >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), > >>>>>>>>>>>>> we > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret > >>>>>> Eisenhart > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Education > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the > >>>>>> whole > >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie > together > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity > >> in > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after > US > >>>>>>>>>>>>> elections > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link >>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 > >>>>>>>>>>> . > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also attach > it > >>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> PDF. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Dec 4 11:49:39 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 11:49:39 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: <645FFF84-9252-4FFE-BCA3-991697BEA51B@gmail.com> References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> <1DE83503-218D-4E0B-BD80-C4852B990209@umich.edu> <645FFF84-9252-4FFE-BCA3-991697BEA51B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Margaret, Carry, Molli, Phillip et al -- I forwarded part of our discussion to Noah Finkelstein, a former LCHC member who ended up with a degree in laser physics and a predilection for teaching physics, perhaps consistent with his career as a stand up comic at Yale as an undergrad. His background is discernable here: http://spot.colorado.edu/~finkelsn/. It his business to create alternative models and scale them in higher ed as well as in the organization of classrooms at the precollege level. Here is his quick reply. It speaks to the issues that have developed around and following Margaret and Carrie's paper. I think. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Noah Finkelstein Date: Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started To: mike cole Heya Mike, Hmmm... Great discussion... Yes there are great exemplars of classrooms / educational environments that empower students (develop not only content mastery (in a substantive / authentic way), but also develop identity, belief systems about the field and their roles in it, and how the disciplines themselves might be broadened/ include issues of social justice, civic engagement ) I do like the references to Benezet (early 1900's), Bang, and Barton.. I use all of these... As for case studies/ videos... Hmm... hmmm... I might be able to find examples from our 5D version (PISEC ), and there are some great examples of this work in more formal physics environments (e.g. Modeling Instruction in high schools, and the adaptation / expansion to university environments . I can likely track down videos of this environment that captures examples of students authoring their educational experiences/ environments) There is a movement in physics and other STEM fields to build this in to the physics spaces/ structures, e.g. the SCALE-UP efforts (these of course don't ensure the more progressive approaches but they sure help) To me, while we find examples, the questions is really about institutional structures around sustaining and scaling such approaches. (You've taught me well... though it leaves me with more than a lifetime of work, I fear). Restricting myself (artificially) to higher education and largely to research university environments, we are starting to make progress in a few ways: 1) building networks and movements to support these ends. The APLU has taken this on in mathematics (Advancing Mathematics Pathways for Student Success, building on the Carnegie work here), and I'm very involved in AAU and APLU efforts in building systemic infrastructure for transforming STEM education. A, perhaps the, major challenge here is how well intentioned work to take things to scale in sustainable manner might be co-opted as described by the AP Calculus efforts described Nov 15 post (or any number of other institutionalized movements) In fact there are so many efforts in STEM education advancement (AAU, APLU, NSEC, BVA, ASCN, AACU/ PKAL, OSTP, AAAS, and others) we're now considering a meta-network structure. 2) developing models for institutional transformation. A variety of researchers (Kezar, Elrod, Beach, Henderson and I) have been starting to examine how these cultural institutions (universities) shift to create value and sustain these types of educational approaches. I can point to a few pieces as helpful (e.g. Kezar or Henderson or Corbo ). What is intriguing is that while these models go beyond what has been historically been used from organizational change theorists, and business models, they probably do not attend enough to how these movements get co-opted by broader instiutional / society structures (e.g. moves towards 'efficiency' and 'return on investment' which are starting to drive national dialogs) My initial thoughts for a Saturday morning. ?..... N On Dec 2, 2016, at 5:44 PM, mike cole wrote: This discussion is begging your intervention or that of some of your students. What might you post for people to consider, preferably video? mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Edward Wall Date: Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:47 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Carrie My read of Barton?s publications is that she is using the Maker movement as a platform as regards issues of equity and science taken broadly. Is this a fair read or are there other important factors I am missing?? My read of a nice paper published by Jessica Thompson and others in TCR is that she sees what she terms as 'rigor and responsiveness? as the key element. In my words - not hers - key is respect for the discipline (rigor) and key is respect for each other (responsiveness). Is this a fair read or are there other important factors I am missing? Megan Bang seems less in the the science/math loop although she just may not have published much in this area. I did see one paper that, one might say, addressed what some would term ethnomathematics. However, I see nothing in the work of these researchers in the discipline of mathematics per se. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction? Here is why I?m asking. Just assume that I am a dumb mathematics educator (which I am - smile) and I wish to help those I teach (which I do) - i.e. those who will be elementary and secondary mathematics teachers - in somehow implementing something like rigor and responsiveness.? I do understand that curriculum and teaching are intertwined, but I also know that teachers enact curriculum and may or may not choose make room for responsiveness (that was also a point in the Thompson article). Now it is possible that all my students will, on their own and in their own classrooms, develop substantial notions of rigor and responsiveness, but it is possible that some might struggle. What experiences might I and others design to help those that struggle; for instance, what constitutes rigor (one can certainly be under or over rigorous). Likewise, what constitutes responsiveness (one certainly doesn?t need to talk to be responsive). Often people such as I do have relations with those, say, in mathematics, child development, and educational philosophy (among others). But, perhaps you don?t see this as happening in the college classroom, but during teaching itself. This still raises the interesting question as to what should occur in the college classroom (although some would just abolish such classrooms, perhaps understandably). Maybe it is too soon to ask such a question, but until it is answered in some pragmatic fashion, dumb mathematics educators such as myself will continue muddle to the benefit of none and, perhaps, detriment of all. Ed Wall > On Dec 1, 2016, at 3:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote: > > Hi all, > > Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in regarding other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and science. First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying to suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow ideas about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There are certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s work at Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s work at the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young people in the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math and science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense of the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who utilize the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced ways of being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means by which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not entirely sure how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. > > > -- > > CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. > STEM Researcher > SRI International > Center for Technology in Learning > > > (650) 859-5262 > Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 > Skype: carrie.allen_9 > > On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com" wrote: > > So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. > This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our inquiry. > This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of learning. > > Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Edward Wall > Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > > Larry > > There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I?m not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics > > 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) > 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a teacher at one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). > 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 > 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the evidence isn?t clear) > > Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is put off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according to some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this is a bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling for the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). > > Ed > >> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: >> >> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it possible we are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation that were not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or incarnate deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. >> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural imaginaries) that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture well-being? >> >> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction >> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> From: Huw Lloyd >> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >> >> Alfredo, >> >> Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems inherent >> in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues can be >> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that can be >> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for "good >> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real problem >> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like Davydov's >> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". There >> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important >> implications. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> >> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >> >>> Huw, >>> >>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, social) >>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the formation >>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all educational >>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather should be >>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, *pathological* (or >>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and >>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some young >>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was Mike who >>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question is, will >>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the double bind >>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only include the >>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a higher order >>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to grow >>> rather than come to stall). >>> >>> Alfredo >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd >>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>> >>> Alfredo, >>> >>> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is another >>> matter. >>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, because there >>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is educational -- >>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an Illich >>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it just >>> takes a different course. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> wrote: >>> >>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates to this >>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to >>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, that >>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between two, >>> not >>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and >>> Phillip's >>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as all we >>> do. >>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have wonderfully >>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in maths, >>> but >>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever that >>> best >>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and context that >>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives and >>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it so that >>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, according >>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a hollowed-out >>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had illusion >>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities to >>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but also a >>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown in >>> people >>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we have a >>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? Not just >>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. >>>> >>>> Alfredo >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> on behalf of White, Phillip >>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>> >>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these >>> examples >>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at where she >>> is >>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a looking >>> back >>>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then setting a >>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, so >>> yeah, >>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of present >>>> activities to attain future goals. >>>> >>>> >>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you". >>>> >>>> >>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely on >>> their >>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all about >>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people like me >>>> do. >>>> >>>> >>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in this >>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. >>>> >>>> >>>> phillip >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> on behalf of David Kellogg >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started >>>> >>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty mental >>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles I have >>> a >>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing rather >>> than >>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is >>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense of some >>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on tenses, and >>> the >>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in and out >>> of >>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. >>>> >>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the way >>> the >>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see >>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at what the >>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this simply >>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take simple >>> present >>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it because >>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the >>> figured >>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is youth? >>>> >>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very much a >>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" you >>> often >>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". >>>> >>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? >>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to find >>> out >>>> if anybody really cares. >>>> >>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: both >>> the >>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of statistical >>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the morning >>> after >>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of those >>> black >>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but couldn't be >>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class voters" who >>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North Carolina >>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently knowing how >>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented as >>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would be >>> part >>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that use >>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the impossible >>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times without >>> any >>>> memory at all). >>>> >>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together you >>> notice >>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your >>> question, >>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend to >>> change >>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On the one >>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too wholly >>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of these >>> moments >>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in >>> itself. >>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and objects >>> in >>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Macquarie University >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> David, >>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this topic, >>> but >>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection between >>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged?interactants >>> view >>>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is >>> largely >>>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians as >>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be interesting >>> to >>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each >>> other >>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of connecting >>>> the >>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to >>> clarify >>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential elections, >>> and >>>>> what not. >>>>> >>>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and Halliday on >>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in ?basic >>>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has said >>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As you?d >>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what he >>>> calls >>>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain is >>>> more >>>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he analyzes >>> tense >>>>> and aspect. >>>>> >>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar has a >>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage based, >>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I think >>>> there >>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m not >>>> smart >>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection must >>> be >>>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? ethnographers >>> are >>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is raising >>>> this >>>>> issue. >>>>> >>>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with the >>>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that the >>>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may say >>> that >>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school was >>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I got to >>>> the >>>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin under >>>> the >>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in Chapter 8 >>> of >>>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. >>>>> >>>>> I?ll end it there. >>>>> >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Henry: >>>>>> >>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and >>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the >>>>> different >>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker somehow >>>> sees >>>>> it >>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space within >>>>> space). >>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and >>>>> happenings. >>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's >>>>> temporally >>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that >>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either >>> proleptically >>>> or >>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article we >>>> are >>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three >>> weeks >>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into >>> the >>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has been >>>>> (past) >>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. >>>>>> >>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me >>> that >>>>> the >>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That is, >>> the >>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more and >>>>> less >>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example in >>>>> this >>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the >>> task >>>>> of >>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, the >>>>> scope, >>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science identities >>> and >>>>> the >>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this >>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed out a >>>>> little >>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the damn >>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing the >>>>> other: >>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some task >>>> that >>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space >>> and >>>>> not >>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way you >>>> dig >>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. >>>>>> >>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the >>>>> article: >>>>>> >>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans", >>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP classes) >>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or what >>>>> Eckhart >>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', >>>> 'gangbangers') >>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and what >>>> they >>>>>> think about themselves) >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are >>>>> probably >>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really do >>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). Different >>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of the >>>>> school >>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers and >>>>> groups >>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's >>>> always >>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the >>> data >>>>> is >>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against what >>> is >>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of >>>>>> intervention is. >>>>>> >>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured by >>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that just >>> an >>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words (although >>>> maybe >>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds for >>>>> hope? >>>>>> >>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own >>>>> *history*, >>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* it >>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances existing >>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of all >>>> dead >>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living." >>>>>> >>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a >>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> All, >>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I >>> wanted >>>>> to >>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera John-Steiner >>> and >>>>> her >>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating Mathematics: >>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers to >>>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within these >>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and >>> Reuben?s >>>>> book >>>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real (working) >>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we call >>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching of >>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and could >>> be >>>>>>> relevant to this discussion. >>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Margaret >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave it >>> to >>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous term >>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments about >>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place of >>>>>>> identity. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of >>> "model >>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM subjects >>>> would >>>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with >>> identifying >>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to find >>>>> out" >>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is >>>>>>> foregrounded >>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background >>> social >>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at the >>>>> role >>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about >>>>> unknowns. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set of >>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such that >>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable within >>>> these >>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with the >>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < >>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for the >>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed Out.? >>>> We >>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream of >>>>>>>>> thinking here! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas about >>>> the >>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we would >>> like >>>> to >>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students >>> were >>>>>>> making >>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them >>>> through >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured >>>> worlds >>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us >>> reflected >>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty >>> serious >>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what >>> theories >>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of >>> ?exemplars? >>>>> we >>>>>>>>> might turn to. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < >>> lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably sens >>> as >>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning and >>>>>>> sense) >>>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. >>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of (hollowed-out) >>>>> meaning >>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for >>>>> developing a >>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. >>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of >>> social >>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about improving >>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of the >>>>> study >>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary >>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, can >>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section (identity-in-context) >>>> to >>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured worlds). >>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of history-in-person. >>>> That >>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of person >>>> one >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. >>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the >>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries (figured >>>>>>> worlds) >>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local practices >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially and >>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are >>>>>>> recognized >>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological >>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* to >>>>>>> *what* >>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we >>> take. >>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn >>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper ethical >>>>> turn >>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. >>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as well >>>> as >>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as >>>> beacons >>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the >>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from >>> their >>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole >>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>> Re-started >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might send >>>> them >>>>>>>>>> here: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web >>> site >>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to implement. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < >>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and >>>> Science >>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret >>>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so during the >>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I shared >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> link >>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion to a >>>>> halt >>>>>>>>>>> until >>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret and >>>>> Carrie >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, but I >>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves as >>>> soon >>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a discussion >>> of >>>> an >>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An >>> American >>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" >>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark day >>>> for >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some >>> grounds >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home >>> now, >>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of >>> mind" >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>> organisation of >>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to >>> Trump's >>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of everyday >>>>> life. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on >>> women's >>>>>>>>>>> scholar >>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to the >>>>>>>>>>> discussions >>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I >>> hope >>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of those >>>>> still >>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins us >>>> next >>>>>>>>>>> week! >>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>>>> edu> >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would be >>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance at >>> the >>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade >>> into >>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have until >>>> next >>>>>>>>>>> week >>>>>>>>>>> to think about it. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to >>> catch >>>>> up! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that the >>>> data >>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was the >>>>>>>>>>> processes >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the >>>>>>> externally >>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study using >>>>>>>>>>> theories >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your >>>> position. >>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if you >>> are >>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point (in >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the >>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I >>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it could >>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the adult >>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? that >>> this >>>>>>>>>>> narrative >>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather >>> could >>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> traced >>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in >>> particular >>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american >>> education >>>>>>>>>>> began? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen >>> study, >>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> phillip >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, >>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow >>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning and >>>>>>>>>>> sense. I >>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes >>> *direction* >>>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of depends >>>> on >>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. >>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you and >>>> me) >>>>>>>>>>> way of >>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical >>> ways >>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the >>>> *historical-in-person*. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the description >>> of >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing >>>> circumstances* >>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The article says: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other >>>> Sociocultural >>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that >>> is, >>>>>>>>>>> learning >>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a >>>> particular >>>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not stable or >>>> fixed. >>>>>>> As >>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too may >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & Skinner, >>>>>>> 1997). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity processes >>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> start >>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are *external* >>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the >>>> importance >>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or primordially >>> to >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a gap >>> in >>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* >>> and >>>>>>>>>>> highly >>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in actual*ity. >>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the >>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, >>>> unsure >>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" >>>>> questions >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be working >>>> on. >>>>> In >>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a moment >>>> which >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big >>>> Bang. >>>>>>> But >>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start >>> (the >>>>> Big >>>>>>>>>>> Bang >>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention the >>>>> origins >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> life). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just >>>>> thoughtfully >>>>>>>>>>> sent >>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper leaves a >>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>>> big >>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap is >>>>>>> largely >>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, >>> 'identity' >>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to be >>>>>>>>>>> sustained." >>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good student, >>>> though >>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest, >>>>>>>>>>> excitement, >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." (193) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm >>>> confident', >>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm >>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted in >>> the >>>>>>>>>>> context >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, their >>>>>>>>>>> statements >>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for >>>> being >>>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity >>> characteristics >>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, >>> do >>>> it >>>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." >>> (193) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by >>>>> society", >>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context of >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> figured >>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to go >>>>>>> against >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's >>>> views >>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that contradicts >>>> my >>>>>>>>>>> data: >>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the >>>> theory >>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also >>> don't >>>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I think >>> the >>>>>>> word >>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and >>> engagement >>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter easily, >>> do >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than >>> others >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is >>>>> actually >>>>>>>>>>> "I" >>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking >>>> about, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation >>> between >>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the activity >>> at >>>>>>> hand >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world of >>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal >>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a good >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in >>> both >>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky >>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a >>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and "you" >>>>>>>>>>> relationship >>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I >>> can >>>>> make >>>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, >>>>>>>>>>> particularly >>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number and >>> a >>>>>>> class >>>>>>>>>>> over >>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the >>>> interpersonal >>>>>>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me like a >>>>>>> strange >>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) somewhere >>>>> between >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I >>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can >>> probably >>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the >>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to >>>>> (Vygotsky) >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language at >>>> one >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) the >>>>> moment >>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying clauses >>>>> ("I'm >>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can >>> pull >>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> off") >>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, >>> which >>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< >>>> http://www.tandfonline >>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful >>> paper >>>>>>>>>>> (which >>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and >>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), >>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret >>>> Eisenhart >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science >>>>>>>>>>> Education >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the >>>> whole >>>>>>>>>>> issue, >>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie together >>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity in >>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>> case). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after US >>>>>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). >>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I >>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also attach it >>> as >>>>>>>>>>> PDF. >>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Dec 4 12:01:07 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 12:01:07 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> <1DE83503-218D-4E0B-BD80-C4852B990209@umich.edu> <4941A004-42BE-4BFE-9162-A277710F31ED@umich.edu> Message-ID: <5844761d.107b630a.62c19.568c@mx.google.com> Mike, Working from memory and hea say the model of community nursing care in Finland (I think) is an alternative that may be possible. In a single local community the 12 health care nurses decided to organize themselves in a learning collaborative with no hierarchical structure. A core principal was that each patient was asigned to only two nurses, one of whom would visit them in their homes. Is one nurse was absent the other was available. >From this model, slowly other local communities of health care nurses chose to organize in this fashion or style. Now, approximately 70 percent of the health care community hubs follow this model without hierarchy. The leadership comes from within each pod of 12 nurses. Each pod can post how they have implemented a change and the other pods are invited to seminars (if interest is generated). No pod is required to make the changes modeled but if persuaded by example (exemplar) they have the autonomy to also make a similar change. What is significant is how this non-heirarchical model (with the intermental as a core organizing principle) spread to become the dominant (normal, taken for granted) model of community public health care community outreach and was elected by each community care team of 12 nurses. I think it was Finland, but am quite sure it was a Scandinavian country. Obviously, the government trusted and funded this alternative model of service delivery. Others may know more. Bernie Saunders was pushing for opening local public community health hubs and could if elected have acknowledged this experiment in non-hierarchical organization. Could there be lessons to learn for creating non-hierarchical local school hubs. Seems an impossible dream, however the stuff of dreams is the source of .. Objective reality Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: mike cole Sent: December 4, 2016 11:17 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started Hi Molly -- The messages have comes frequently and complexly I missed a real response to your call to examine the positive models provided by Megan that stretched from classroom to community groups and look for all the world like great science education. A positive alternative. Phillip mentioned a school he work for 15 years that appeared, from the brief description, to embody the kinds of principles being invoked here as an alternative to the neo-liberal model of education-as-commodity. I am wondering, Phillip, if there is any description of the conditions that made the creation of an alternative educational practice in a command-and-control political economy possible? What conditions sustained them? I would add the Salt Lake City school written about by Barbara Rogoff and colleagues as an institutionalized alternative. I also think the lines of research that Carrie (I believe) referred to as models are important but I am always curious about the infrastructure that enables those models to happen in in the first place and the process of repair/renewal/keeping on keeping on. This is the line that my colleagues and followed in the FifthDimension and subsequent projects. Here there appear to be a number of candidates. I guess this is a question about the social ecology of an alternative form of education that embodies the values that go along with a socio-cultural-historical-activity sort a theory. This interest goes along with Phillip's earlier comment as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning and soocial practices, at core there is always an ideology. here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to authority. So the question becomes, i think, is how are we to understand local sociocultural ecologies that permit us to carry out the kind of education we think maximizes the kind of values that organize our image of our children's future worlds. Galina faced that problem under soviet rule and under oligarchic capitalism, we face it under Trumpism. The folks in Singapore live it. In short: Under what conditions is it possible to institutionalize alternatives? mike (Apologies for font messups) On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > Molly > > This does look like an excellent book. I was just looking at her > article and missed this. > > Many thanks!! > > Ed > > > On Dec 2, 2016, at 6:11 PM, molly shea wrote: > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > Megan Bang and Doug Medin wrote an excellent book on Science Education: > > https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/whos-asking > > > > *Overview* > > The answers to scientific questions depend on who?s asking, because the > > questions asked and the answers sought reflect the cultural values and > > orientations of the questioner. These values and orientations are most > > often those of Western science. In Who?s Asking?, Douglas Medin and Megan > > Bang argue that despite the widely held view that science is objective, > > value-neutral, and acultural, scientists do not shed their cultures at > the > > laboratory or classroom door; their practices reflect their values, > belief > > systems, and worldviews. Medin and Bang argue further that scientist > > diversity?the participation of researchers and educators with different > > cultural orientations?provides new perspectives and leads to more > effective > > science and better science education. > > > > Medin and Bang compare Native American and European American orientations > > toward the natural world and apply these findings to science education. > The > > European American model, they find, sees humans as separated from nature; > > the Native American model sees humans as part of a natural ecosystem. > Medin > > and Bang then report on the development of ecologically oriented and > > community-based science education programs on the Menominee reservation > in > > Wisconsin and at the American Indian Center of Chicago. Medin and Bang?s > > novel argument for scientist diversity also has important implications > for > > questions of minority underrepresentation in science. > > > > Thanks, > > Molly Shea > > > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > > > >> Carrie > >> > >> My read of Barton?s publications is that she is using the Maker > >> movement as a platform as regards issues of equity and science taken > >> broadly. Is this a fair read or are there other important factors I am > >> missing?? > >> > >> My read of a nice paper published by Jessica Thompson and others in > >> TCR is that she sees what she terms as 'rigor and responsiveness? as the > >> key element. In my words - not hers - key is respect for the discipline > >> (rigor) and key is respect for each other (responsiveness). Is this a > fair > >> read or are there other important factors I am missing? > >> > >> Megan Bang seems less in the the science/math loop although she just > >> may not have published much in this area. I did see one paper that, one > >> might say, addressed what some would term ethnomathematics. > >> > >> However, I see nothing in the work of these researchers in the > discipline > >> of mathematics per se. Perhaps you could point me in the right > direction? > >> > >> Here is why I?m asking. Just assume that I am a dumb mathematics > educator > >> (which I am - smile) and I wish to help those I teach (which I do) - > i.e. > >> those who will be elementary and secondary mathematics teachers - in > >> somehow implementing something like rigor and responsiveness.? I do > >> understand that curriculum and teaching are intertwined, but I also know > >> that teachers enact curriculum and may or may not choose make room for > >> responsiveness (that was also a point in the Thompson article). Now it > is > >> possible that all my students will, on their own and in their own > >> classrooms, develop substantial notions of rigor and responsiveness, > but it > >> is possible that some might struggle. What experiences might I and > others > >> design to help those that struggle; for instance, what constitutes rigor > >> (one can certainly be under or over rigorous). Likewise, what > constitutes > >> responsiveness (one certainly doesn?t need to talk to be responsive). > Often > >> people such as I do have relations with those, say, in mathematics, > child > >> development, and educational philosophy (among others). But, perhaps you > >> don?t see this as happening in the college classroom, but during > teaching > >> itself. This still raises the interesting question as to what should > occur > >> in the college classroom (although some would just abolish such > classrooms, > >> perhaps understandably). Maybe it is too soon to ask such a question, > but > >> until it is answered in some pragmatic fashion, dumb mathematics > educators > >> such as myself will continue muddle to the benefit of none and, perhaps, > >> detriment of all. > >> > >> Ed Wall > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Dec 1, 2016, at 3:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in regarding > >> other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and science. > >> First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying to > >> suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow ideas > >> about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There are > >> certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s > work at > >> Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s work > at > >> the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and > >> normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young > people in > >> the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. Math > and > >> science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making sense > of > >> the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who > utilize > >> the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, > >> questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced ways > of > >> being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means by > >> which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not entirely > sure > >> how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are > >> ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. > >>> STEM Researcher > >>> SRI International > >>> Center for Technology in Learning > >>> > >>> > >>> (650) 859-5262 > >>> Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 > >>> Skype: carrie.allen_9 > >>> > >>> On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of > >> lpscholar2@gmail.com" >> lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a > >> particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. > >>> This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes > >> approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our > >> inquiry. > >>> This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of learning. > >>> > >>> Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be > >> foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. > >>> > >>> > >>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>> > >>> From: Edward Wall > >>> Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>> > >>> Larry > >>> > >>> There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I?m > >> not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics > >>> > >>> 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) > >>> 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a teacher at > >> one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). > >>> 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 > >>> 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the > >> Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the > evidence > >> isn?t clear) > >>> > >>> Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is put > >> off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; > >> however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey > >> recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according to > >> some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this > is a > >> bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling > for > >> the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). > >>> > >>> Ed > >>> > >>>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: > >>>> > >>>> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates > >> (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it possible > we > >> are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or > >> historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation that > were > >> not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or incarnate > >> deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. > >>>> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural imaginaries) > >> that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture well-being? > >>>> > >>>> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>>> > >>>> From: Huw Lloyd > >>>> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>>> > >>>> Alfredo, > >>>> > >>>> Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems > >> inherent > >>>> in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues can be > >>>> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that can > be > >>>> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for > "good > >>>> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real > >> problem > >>>> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like Davydov's > >>>> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". > There > >>>> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important > >>>> implications. > >>>> > >>>> Best, > >>>> Huw > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Huw, > >>>>> > >>>>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, social) > >>>>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the > >> formation > >>>>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all educational > >>>>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather should > be > >>>>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, *pathological* > >> (or > >>>>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and > >>>>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some young > >>>>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was > Mike > >> who > >>>>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question is, > >> will > >>>>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the double > >> bind > >>>>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only include > the > >>>>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a higher > >> order > >>>>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to > grow > >>>>> rather than come to stall). > >>>>> > >>>>> Alfredo > >>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu > >>> > >>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd > >>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 > >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>>>> > >>>>> Alfredo, > >>>>> > >>>>> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is > >> another > >>>>> matter. > >>>>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, because > >> there > >>>>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is > educational > >> -- > >>>>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an Illich > >>>>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it > just > >>>>> takes a different course. > >>>>> > >>>>> Best, > >>>>> Huw > >>>>> > >>>>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates to > >> this > >>>>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to > >>>>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, that > >>>>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between > >> two, > >>>>> not > >>>>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and > >>>>> Phillip's > >>>>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as all > >> we > >>>>> do. > >>>>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have > wonderfully > >>>>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in > maths, > >>>>> but > >>>>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever > that > >>>>> best > >>>>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and context > >> that > >>>>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives > and > >>>>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it so > >> that > >>>>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, > >> according > >>>>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a > >> hollowed-out > >>>>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had > >> illusion > >>>>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities to > >>>>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but > >> also a > >>>>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown in > >>>>> people > >>>>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we > >> have a > >>>>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? Not > >> just > >>>>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> edu> > >>>>>> on behalf of White, Phillip > >>>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>>>>> > >>>>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these > >>>>> examples > >>>>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at where > >> she > >>>>> is > >>>>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a > looking > >>>>> back > >>>>>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then > setting > >> a > >>>>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, > so > >>>>> yeah, > >>>>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of > present > >>>>>> activities to attain future goals. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely on > >>>>> their > >>>>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all > >> about > >>>>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people > >> like me > >>>>>> do. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in > >> this > >>>>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> phillip > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> edu> > >>>>>> on behalf of David Kellogg > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty > >> mental > >>>>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles I > >> have > >>>>> a > >>>>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing > rather > >>>>> than > >>>>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is > >>>>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense of > >> some > >>>>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on tenses, > >> and > >>>>> the > >>>>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in and > >> out > >>>>> of > >>>>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the > way > >>>>> the > >>>>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see > >>>>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at what > >> the > >>>>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this > >> simply > >>>>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take simple > >>>>> present > >>>>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it > >> because > >>>>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the > >>>>> figured > >>>>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is youth? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very > >> much a > >>>>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" you > >>>>> often > >>>>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? > >>>>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to > >> find > >>>>> out > >>>>>> if anybody really cares. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: > >> both > >>>>> the > >>>>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of > >> statistical > >>>>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the > morning > >>>>> after > >>>>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of > those > >>>>> black > >>>>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but > couldn't > >> be > >>>>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class voters" > >> who > >>>>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North > >> Carolina > >>>>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently > knowing > >> how > >>>>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented > as > >>>>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would > be > >>>>> part > >>>>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that > use > >>>>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the > >> impossible > >>>>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times > without > >>>>> any > >>>>>> memory at all). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together you > >>>>> notice > >>>>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your > >>>>> question, > >>>>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend to > >>>>> change > >>>>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On the > >> one > >>>>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too > >> wholly > >>>>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of these > >>>>> moments > >>>>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in > >>>>> itself. > >>>>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and > >> objects > >>>>> in > >>>>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>>> Macquarie University > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD > > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> David, > >>>>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this > topic, > >>>>> but > >>>>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection > between > >>>>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged?interactants > >>>>> view > >>>>>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is > >>>>> largely > >>>>>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians as > >>>>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be > interesting > >>>>> to > >>>>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each > >>>>> other > >>>>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of > >> connecting > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to > >>>>> clarify > >>>>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential > elections, > >>>>> and > >>>>>>> what not. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and Halliday > >> on > >>>>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in > ?basic > >>>>>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has > >> said > >>>>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As > you?d > >>>>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what > he > >>>>>> calls > >>>>>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain > >> is > >>>>>> more > >>>>>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he analyzes > >>>>> tense > >>>>>>> and aspect. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar > has > >> a > >>>>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage > >> based, > >>>>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I > think > >>>>>> there > >>>>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m > not > >>>>>> smart > >>>>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection > must > >>>>> be > >>>>>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? > ethnographers > >>>>> are > >>>>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is > raising > >>>>>> this > >>>>>>> issue. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with > the > >>>>>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that > >> the > >>>>>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may say > >>>>> that > >>>>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school > >> was > >>>>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I got > >> to > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin > >> under > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in > Chapter 8 > >>>>> of > >>>>>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I?ll end it there. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Henry > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Henry: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and > >>>>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the > >>>>>>> different > >>>>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker > somehow > >>>>>> sees > >>>>>>> it > >>>>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space > within > >>>>>>> space). > >>>>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and > >>>>>>> happenings. > >>>>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's > >>>>>>> temporally > >>>>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that > >>>>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either > >>>>> proleptically > >>>>>> or > >>>>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article > we > >>>>>> are > >>>>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three > >>>>> weeks > >>>>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has > been > >>>>>>> (past) > >>>>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me > >>>>> that > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That > is, > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more > >> and > >>>>>>> less > >>>>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example > >> in > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the > >>>>> task > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, > the > >>>>>>> scope, > >>>>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science > identities > >>>>> and > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this > >>>>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed > out a > >>>>>>> little > >>>>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the > damn > >>>>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing > the > >>>>>>> other: > >>>>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some > task > >>>>>> that > >>>>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space > >>>>> and > >>>>>>> not > >>>>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way > you > >>>>>> dig > >>>>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the > >>>>>>> article: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans", > >>>>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP > classes) > >>>>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or > what > >>>>>>> Eckhart > >>>>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', > >>>>>> 'gangbangers') > >>>>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and > what > >>>>>> they > >>>>>>>> think about themselves) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are > >>>>>>> probably > >>>>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really > do > >>>>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). > >> Different > >>>>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of > the > >>>>>>> school > >>>>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers > and > >>>>>>> groups > >>>>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's > >>>>>> always > >>>>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the > >>>>> data > >>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against > what > >>>>> is > >>>>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of > >>>>>>>> intervention is. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured > by > >>>>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that > just > >>>>> an > >>>>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words > (although > >>>>>> maybe > >>>>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds > for > >>>>>>> hope? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own > >>>>>>> *history*, > >>>>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* > >> it > >>>>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances > >> existing > >>>>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of > all > >>>>>> dead > >>>>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living." > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a > >>>>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>>>>> Macquarie University > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD < > hshonerd@gmail.com> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> All, > >>>>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I > >>>>> wanted > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera > John-Steiner > >>>>> and > >>>>>>> her > >>>>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating > Mathematics: > >>>>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers > to > >>>>>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within > >> these > >>>>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and > >>>>> Reuben?s > >>>>>>> book > >>>>>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real (working) > >>>>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we > call > >>>>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching > >> of > >>>>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and > could > >>>>> be > >>>>>>>>> relevant to this discussion. > >>>>>>>>> Henry > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd < > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Dear Margaret > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave > it > >>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous > term > >>>>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments > >> about > >>>>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place > of > >>>>>>>>> identity. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of > >>>>> "model > >>>>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM > subjects > >>>>>> would > >>>>>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with > >>>>> identifying > >>>>>>>>> with > >>>>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to > >> find > >>>>>>> out" > >>>>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is > >>>>>>>>> foregrounded > >>>>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background > >>>>> social > >>>>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at > >> the > >>>>>>> role > >>>>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about > >>>>>>> unknowns. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set > of > >>>>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such > >> that > >>>>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable > within > >>>>>> these > >>>>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with > the > >>>>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Best, > >>>>>>>>>> Huw > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < > >>>>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for > the > >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed > Out.? > >>>>>> We > >>>>>>>>> also > >>>>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream > >> of > >>>>>>>>>>> thinking here! > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas > >> about > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we would > >>>>> like > >>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students > >>>>> were > >>>>>>>>> making > >>>>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them > >>>>>> through > >>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured > >>>>>> worlds > >>>>>>>>> are > >>>>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us > >>>>> reflected > >>>>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty > >>>>> serious > >>>>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what > >>>>> theories > >>>>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of > >>>>> ?exemplars? > >>>>>>> we > >>>>>>>>>>> might turn to. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < > >>>>> lpscholar2@gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably > sens > >>>>> as > >>>>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning > >> and > >>>>>>>>> sense) > >>>>>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. > >>>>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of > (hollowed-out) > >>>>>>> meaning > >>>>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for > >>>>>>> developing a > >>>>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. > >>>>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of > >>>>> social > >>>>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about improving > >>>>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of > the > >>>>>>> study > >>>>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary > >>>>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, > can > >>>>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section > >> (identity-in-context) > >>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured > worlds). > >>>>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of > history-in-person. > >>>>>> That > >>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of > >> person > >>>>>> one > >>>>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. > >>>>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the > >>>>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries > >> (figured > >>>>>>>>> worlds) > >>>>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local > practices > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are > >>>>>>>>> recognized > >>>>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological > >>>>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* > >> to > >>>>>>>>> *what* > >>>>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we > >>>>> take. > >>>>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn > >>>>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper > >> ethical > >>>>>>> turn > >>>>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as > >> well > >>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as > >>>>>> beacons > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the > >>>>> neoliberal > >>>>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from > >>>>> their > >>>>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>> Re-started > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might > send > >>>>>> them > >>>>>>>>>>>> here: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web > >>>>> site > >>>>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to > >> implement. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> mike > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > >>>>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and > >>>>>> Science > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret > >>>>>>> Eisenhart > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so during > >> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I > >> shared > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> link > >>>>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion > to > >> a > >>>>>>> halt > >>>>>>>>>>>>> until > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret > and > >>>>>>> Carrie > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, > but > >> I > >>>>>>> also > >>>>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves > as > >>>>>> soon > >>>>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a > discussion > >>>>> of > >>>>>> an > >>>>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An > >>>>> American > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark > >> day > >>>>>> for > >>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some > >>>>> grounds > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home > >>>>> now, > >>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike > >>>>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of > >>>>> mind" > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> that > >>>>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal > >>>>>>>>>>>>> organisation of > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to > >>>>> Trump's > >>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of > >> everyday > >>>>>>> life. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on > >>>>> women's > >>>>>>>>>>>>> scholar > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to > the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I > >>>>> hope > >>>>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> edu> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of > those > >>>>>>> still > >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins > us > >>>>>> next > >>>>>>>>>>>>> week! > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> edu> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would > be > >>>>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance > at > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade > >>>>> into > >>>>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have > until > >>>>>> next > >>>>>>>>>>>>> week > >>>>>>>>>>>>> to think about it. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to > >>>>> catch > >>>>>>> up! > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> mike > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip > >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that > the > >>>>>> data > >>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was > the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> processes > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the > >>>>>>>>> externally > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study > using > >>>>>>>>>>>>> theories > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your > >>>>>> position. > >>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> you > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if you > >>>>> are > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point > >> (in > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> case > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, > but > >> I > >>>>>>> think > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it > >> could > >>>>>> be > >>>>>>>>>>>>> traced > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the > adult > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? that > >>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>>> narrative > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather > >>>>> could > >>>>>>> be > >>>>>>>>>>>>> traced > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in > >>>>> particular > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american > >>>>> education > >>>>>>>>>>>>> began? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen > >>>>> study, > >>>>>>> what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> phillip > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning > >> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sense. I > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes > >>>>> *direction* > >>>>>>>>>>>>> within > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of > >> depends > >>>>>> on > >>>>>>>>>>>>> where > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you > and > >>>>>> me) > >>>>>>>>>>>>> way of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical > >>>>> ways > >>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>> being > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the > >>>>>> *historical-in-person*. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the > description > >>>>> of > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing > >>>>>> circumstances* > >>>>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article says: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other > >>>>>> Sociocultural > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that > >>>>> is, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> learning > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a > >>>>>> particular > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not stable or > >>>>>> fixed. > >>>>>>>>> As > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too > may > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & > >> Skinner, > >>>>>>>>> 1997). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity > processes > >>>>>> that > >>>>>>>>>>>>> start > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are > *external* > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the > >>>>>> importance > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or > primordially > >>>>> to > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a > gap > >>>>> in > >>>>>>> our > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* > >>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> highly > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in > actual*ity. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, > >>>>>> unsure > >>>>>>>>>>>>> where > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" > >>>>>>> questions > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be > working > >>>>>> on. > >>>>>>> In > >>>>>>>>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a > moment > >>>>>> which > >>>>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big > >>>>>> Bang. > >>>>>>>>> But > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start > >>>>> (the > >>>>>>> Big > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bang > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention > the > >>>>>>> origins > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> life). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just > >>>>>>> thoughtfully > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sent > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper > leaves > >> a > >>>>>>>>> really > >>>>>>>>>>>>> big > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap > is > >>>>>>>>> largely > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, > >>>>> 'identity' > >>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to > be > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sustained." > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good student, > >>>>>> though > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> excitement, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> or > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." > (193) > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm > >>>>>> confident', > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted in > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> context > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, > their > >>>>>>>>>>>>> statements > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for > >>>>>> being > >>>>>>>>>>>>> good > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity > >>>>> characteristics > >>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>> being > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work > quickly, > >>>>> do > >>>>>> it > >>>>>>>>>>>>> without > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." > >>>>> (193) > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by > >>>>>>> society", > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context > >> of > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> figured > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to > go > >>>>>>>>> against > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's > >>>>>> views > >>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that > >> contradicts > >>>>>> my > >>>>>>>>>>>>> data: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the > >>>>>> theory > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also > >>>>> don't > >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I > think > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>>> word > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and > >>>>> engagement > >>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> much > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter > easily, > >>>>> do > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> work > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than > >>>>> others > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> get > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is > >>>>>>> actually > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "I" > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking > >>>>>> about, > >>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation > >>>>> between > >>>>>>>>>>>>> their > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the > activity > >>>>> at > >>>>>>>>> hand > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world > >> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a > good > >>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in > >>>>> both > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and > "you" > >>>>>>>>>>>>> relationship > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I > >>>>> can > >>>>>>> make > >>>>>>>>>>>>> up > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly > >>>>>>>>>>>>> if > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number > and > >>>>> a > >>>>>>>>> class > >>>>>>>>>>>>> over > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the > >>>>>> interpersonal > >>>>>>>>>>>>> somehow > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me > like a > >>>>>>>>> strange > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) > somewhere > >>>>>>> between > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, > but > >> I > >>>>>>> think > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can > >>>>> probably > >>>>>>> find > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to > >>>>>>> (Vygotsky) > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language > at > >>>>>> one > >>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) > the > >>>>>>> moment > >>>>>>>>>>>>> when > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying > >> clauses > >>>>>>> ("I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can > >>>>> pull > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>>> off") > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, > >>>>> which > >>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>>> now > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< > >>>>>> http://www.tandfonline > >>>>>>> . > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful > >>>>> paper > >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), > >>>>>>>>>>>>> we > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret > >>>>>> Eisenhart > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Education > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the > >>>>>> whole > >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie > together > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity > >> in > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after > US > >>>>>>>>>>>>> elections > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link >>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 > >>>>>>>>>>> . > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also attach > it > >>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> PDF. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > From mvshea@gmail.com Sun Dec 4 12:26:36 2016 From: mvshea@gmail.com (molly shea) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 12:26:36 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> <1DE83503-218D-4E0B-BD80-C4852B990209@umich.edu> <4941A004-42BE-4BFE-9162-A277710F31ED@umich.edu> Message-ID: Hi Mike, Thanks for the email. I think the Margaret and Carrie's paper did a great job of defining and describing the fall out of neoliberal schooling conditions. The study found "so-called ?high-achieving? students learning-to-the-tests (i.e., to make high grades) and struggling to maintain ?good student? identities based in compliant behavior and mundane activities." The mundane activities is the part that seems so pernicious. You can almost image being in the interviews with some of the brightest women and men asking "why are we here? what is the point?". The wonder of math and science become narrowly focused on future oriented achievement and future oriented identities that suggest someday this stuff won't be so mundane. However I think some alternative sites of learning math and science sustain themselves on 1) a better understanding of the history and the people that constructed and construct the discipline; 2) a better sense of wonderment (Heidegger) about the possibilities to be surprised, confused, and curious about how and why the world has become the multiple things that it is or seems to be; and 3) institutional support that can see a shared value with these alternative paths. Your Fifth Dimension is an example of taking up a kind of ambiguity and curiosity and unsettled ideas (Medin and Bang discuss this in detail on their own terms). Carrie and Margaret's paper does a nice job of describing the absence of that wonderment or curiosity. Something they suggest the institutionalized neoliberal education for working class kids has all but left behind for a march towards progress through test scores and the improvements of economic security for those who possess merit in the schooling system. Private schools seem to be a refuge for the wealthy. Susan Jurow and I discuss how those who want to institutionalize alternatives must consider the reorganizing of scales to consider how other forms of becoming can emerge--forms that work towards equity. I am not sure there are many answers in this quick email, but it is something I am very interested in understanding and would love to hear other's thoughts. Thanks, Molly On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 11:14 AM, mike cole wrote: > Hi Molly -- > > The messages have comes frequently and complexly I missed a real response > to > your call to examine the positive models provided by Megan that stretched > from classroom to community groups and look for all the world like great > science education. A positive alternative. > > Phillip mentioned a school he work for 15 years that appeared, from the > brief description, to embody the kinds of principles being invoked here as > an alternative to the neo-liberal model of education-as-commodity. I am > wondering, Phillip, if there is any description of the conditions that made > the creation of an alternative educational practice in a > command-and-control political economy possible? What conditions sustained > them? > > I would add the Salt Lake City school written about by Barbara Rogoff and > colleagues as an institutionalized alternative. > > I also think the lines of research that Carrie (I believe) referred to as > models are important but I am always curious about the infrastructure that > enables those models to happen in in the first place and the process of > repair/renewal/keeping on keeping on. This is the line that my colleagues > and followed in the FifthDimension and subsequent projects. Here there > appear to be a number of candidates. > > I guess this is a question about the social ecology of an alternative form > of education that embodies the values that go along with a > socio-cultural-historical-activity sort a theory. This interest goes along > with Phillip's earlier comment > > as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning > and > > soocial practices, at core there is always an ideology. > > here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. > > in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. > > both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to > authority. > > > So the question becomes, i think, is how are we to understand local > sociocultural ecologies that permit us to carry out the kind of education > we think maximizes the kind of values that organize our image of our > children's future worlds. > > Galina faced that problem under soviet rule and under oligarchic > capitalism, we face it under Trumpism. The folks in Singapore live it. > > In short: Under what conditions is it possible to institutionalize > alternatives? > > mike > (Apologies for font messups) > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > > > Molly > > > > This does look like an excellent book. I was just looking at her > > article and missed this. > > > > Many thanks!! > > > > Ed > > > > > On Dec 2, 2016, at 6:11 PM, molly shea wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > > > Megan Bang and Doug Medin wrote an excellent book on Science Education: > > > https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/whos-asking > > > > > > *Overview* > > > The answers to scientific questions depend on who?s asking, because the > > > questions asked and the answers sought reflect the cultural values and > > > orientations of the questioner. These values and orientations are most > > > often those of Western science. In Who?s Asking?, Douglas Medin and > Megan > > > Bang argue that despite the widely held view that science is objective, > > > value-neutral, and acultural, scientists do not shed their cultures at > > the > > > laboratory or classroom door; their practices reflect their values, > > belief > > > systems, and worldviews. Medin and Bang argue further that scientist > > > diversity?the participation of researchers and educators with different > > > cultural orientations?provides new perspectives and leads to more > > effective > > > science and better science education. > > > > > > Medin and Bang compare Native American and European American > orientations > > > toward the natural world and apply these findings to science education. > > The > > > European American model, they find, sees humans as separated from > nature; > > > the Native American model sees humans as part of a natural ecosystem. > > Medin > > > and Bang then report on the development of ecologically oriented and > > > community-based science education programs on the Menominee reservation > > in > > > Wisconsin and at the American Indian Center of Chicago. Medin and > Bang?s > > > novel argument for scientist diversity also has important implications > > for > > > questions of minority underrepresentation in science. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Molly Shea > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > > > > > >> Carrie > > >> > > >> My read of Barton?s publications is that she is using the Maker > > >> movement as a platform as regards issues of equity and science taken > > >> broadly. Is this a fair read or are there other important factors I am > > >> missing?? > > >> > > >> My read of a nice paper published by Jessica Thompson and others > in > > >> TCR is that she sees what she terms as 'rigor and responsiveness? as > the > > >> key element. In my words - not hers - key is respect for the > discipline > > >> (rigor) and key is respect for each other (responsiveness). Is this a > > fair > > >> read or are there other important factors I am missing? > > >> > > >> Megan Bang seems less in the the science/math loop although she > just > > >> may not have published much in this area. I did see one paper that, > one > > >> might say, addressed what some would term ethnomathematics. > > >> > > >> However, I see nothing in the work of these researchers in the > > discipline > > >> of mathematics per se. Perhaps you could point me in the right > > direction? > > >> > > >> Here is why I?m asking. Just assume that I am a dumb mathematics > > educator > > >> (which I am - smile) and I wish to help those I teach (which I do) - > > i.e. > > >> those who will be elementary and secondary mathematics teachers - in > > >> somehow implementing something like rigor and responsiveness.? I do > > >> understand that curriculum and teaching are intertwined, but I also > know > > >> that teachers enact curriculum and may or may not choose make room for > > >> responsiveness (that was also a point in the Thompson article). Now it > > is > > >> possible that all my students will, on their own and in their own > > >> classrooms, develop substantial notions of rigor and responsiveness, > > but it > > >> is possible that some might struggle. What experiences might I and > > others > > >> design to help those that struggle; for instance, what constitutes > rigor > > >> (one can certainly be under or over rigorous). Likewise, what > > constitutes > > >> responsiveness (one certainly doesn?t need to talk to be responsive). > > Often > > >> people such as I do have relations with those, say, in mathematics, > > child > > >> development, and educational philosophy (among others). But, perhaps > you > > >> don?t see this as happening in the college classroom, but during > > teaching > > >> itself. This still raises the interesting question as to what should > > occur > > >> in the college classroom (although some would just abolish such > > classrooms, > > >> perhaps understandably). Maybe it is too soon to ask such a question, > > but > > >> until it is answered in some pragmatic fashion, dumb mathematics > > educators > > >> such as myself will continue muddle to the benefit of none and, > perhaps, > > >> detriment of all. > > >> > > >> Ed Wall > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> On Dec 1, 2016, at 3:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Hi all, > > >>> > > >>> Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in > regarding > > >> other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and science. > > >> First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying > to > > >> suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow > ideas > > >> about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There are > > >> certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s > > work at > > >> Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s work > > at > > >> the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and > > >> normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young > > people in > > >> the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. > Math > > and > > >> science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making > sense > > of > > >> the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who > > utilize > > >> the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, > > >> questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced > ways > > of > > >> being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means by > > >> which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not entirely > > sure > > >> how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are > > >> ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> > > >>> CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. > > >>> STEM Researcher > > >>> SRI International > > >>> Center for Technology in Learning > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> (650) 859-5262 > > >>> Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 > > >>> Skype: carrie.allen_9 > > >>> > > >>> On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of > > >> lpscholar2@gmail.com" > >> lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a > > >> particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. > > >>> This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes > > >> approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of > our > > >> inquiry. > > >>> This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of > learning. > > >>> > > >>> Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be > > >> foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > >>> > > >>> From: Edward Wall > > >>> Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM > > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > > >>> > > >>> Larry > > >>> > > >>> There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I?m > > >> not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics > > >>> > > >>> 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) > > >>> 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a teacher > at > > >> one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). > > >>> 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 > > >>> 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the > > >> Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the > > evidence > > >> isn?t clear) > > >>> > > >>> Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is > put > > >> off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; > > >> however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey > > >> recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according to > > >> some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this > > is a > > >> bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling > > for > > >> the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). > > >>> > > >>> Ed > > >>> > > >>>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates > > >> (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it > possible > > we > > >> are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or > > >> historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation that > > were > > >> not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or > incarnate > > >> deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. > > >>>> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural > imaginaries) > > >> that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture > well-being? > > >>>> > > >>>> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction > > >>>> > > >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > >>>> > > >>>> From: Huw Lloyd > > >>>> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM > > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > > >>>> > > >>>> Alfredo, > > >>>> > > >>>> Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems > > >> inherent > > >>>> in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues can > be > > >>>> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that can > > be > > >>>> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for > > "good > > >>>> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real > > >> problem > > >>>> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like > Davydov's > > >>>> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". > > There > > >>>> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important > > >>>> implications. > > >>>> > > >>>> Best, > > >>>> Huw > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Huw, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, > social) > > >>>>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the > > >> formation > > >>>>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all educational > > >>>>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather > should > > be > > >>>>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, > *pathological* > > >> (or > > >>>>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and > > >>>>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some > young > > >>>>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was > > Mike > > >> who > > >>>>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question is, > > >> will > > >>>>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the > double > > >> bind > > >>>>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only include > > the > > >>>>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a > higher > > >> order > > >>>>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to > > grow > > >>>>> rather than come to stall). > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Alfredo > > >>>>> ________________________________________ > > >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > edu > > >>> > > >>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd > > >>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 > > >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Alfredo, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is > > >> another > > >>>>> matter. > > >>>>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, > because > > >> there > > >>>>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is > > educational > > >> -- > > >>>>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an Illich > > >>>>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it > > just > > >>>>> takes a different course. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Best, > > >>>>> Huw > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > > >>>>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates > to > > >> this > > >>>>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to > > >>>>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, > that > > >>>>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between > > >> two, > > >>>>> not > > >>>>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and > > >>>>> Phillip's > > >>>>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as > all > > >> we > > >>>>> do. > > >>>>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have > > wonderfully > > >>>>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in > > maths, > > >>>>> but > > >>>>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever > > that > > >>>>> best > > >>>>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and > context > > >> that > > >>>>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives > > and > > >>>>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it > so > > >> that > > >>>>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, > > >> according > > >>>>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a > > >> hollowed-out > > >>>>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had > > >> illusion > > >>>>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities > to > > >>>>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but > > >> also a > > >>>>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown > in > > >>>>> people > > >>>>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we > > >> have a > > >>>>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? > Not > > >> just > > >>>>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Alfredo > > >>>>>> ________________________________________ > > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >> edu> > > >>>>>> on behalf of White, Phillip > > >>>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 > > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > Re-started > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these > > >>>>> examples > > >>>>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at > where > > >> she > > >>>>> is > > >>>>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a > > looking > > >>>>> back > > >>>>>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then > > setting > > >> a > > >>>>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, > > so > > >>>>> yeah, > > >>>>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of > > present > > >>>>>> activities to attain future goals. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you". > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely > on > > >>>>> their > > >>>>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all > > >> about > > >>>>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people > > >> like me > > >>>>>> do. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in > > >> this > > >>>>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> phillip > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> ________________________________ > > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >> edu> > > >>>>>> on behalf of David Kellogg > > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM > > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > Re-started > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty > > >> mental > > >>>>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles > I > > >> have > > >>>>> a > > >>>>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing > > rather > > >>>>> than > > >>>>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is > > >>>>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense > of > > >> some > > >>>>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on > tenses, > > >> and > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in > and > > >> out > > >>>>> of > > >>>>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the > > way > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see > > >>>>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at > what > > >> the > > >>>>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this > > >> simply > > >>>>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take > simple > > >>>>> present > > >>>>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it > > >> because > > >>>>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the > > >>>>> figured > > >>>>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is > youth? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very > > >> much a > > >>>>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" > you > > >>>>> often > > >>>>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? > > >>>>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to > > >> find > > >>>>> out > > >>>>>> if anybody really cares. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: > > >> both > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of > > >> statistical > > >>>>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the > > morning > > >>>>> after > > >>>>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of > > those > > >>>>> black > > >>>>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but > > couldn't > > >> be > > >>>>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class > voters" > > >> who > > >>>>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North > > >> Carolina > > >>>>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently > > knowing > > >> how > > >>>>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented > > as > > >>>>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would > > be > > >>>>> part > > >>>>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that > > use > > >>>>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the > > >> impossible > > >>>>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times > > without > > >>>>> any > > >>>>>> memory at all). > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together > you > > >>>>> notice > > >>>>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your > > >>>>> question, > > >>>>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend > to > > >>>>> change > > >>>>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On > the > > >> one > > >>>>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too > > >> wholly > > >>>>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of > these > > >>>>> moments > > >>>>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in > > >>>>> itself. > > >>>>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and > > >> objects > > >>>>> in > > >>>>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> David Kellogg > > >>>>>> Macquarie University > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD < > hshonerd@gmail.com > > > > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> David, > > >>>>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this > > topic, > > >>>>> but > > >>>>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection > > between > > >>>>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as > staged?interactants > > >>>>> view > > >>>>>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is > > >>>>> largely > > >>>>>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians > as > > >>>>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be > > interesting > > >>>>> to > > >>>>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold > each > > >>>>> other > > >>>>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of > > >> connecting > > >>>>>> the > > >>>>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to > > >>>>> clarify > > >>>>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential > > elections, > > >>>>> and > > >>>>>>> what not. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and > Halliday > > >> on > > >>>>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in > > ?basic > > >>>>>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he > has > > >> said > > >>>>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As > > you?d > > >>>>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating > what > > he > > >>>>>> calls > > >>>>>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal > domain > > >> is > > >>>>>> more > > >>>>>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he > analyzes > > >>>>> tense > > >>>>>>> and aspect. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar > > has > > >> a > > >>>>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage > > >> based, > > >>>>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I > > think > > >>>>>> there > > >>>>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m > > not > > >>>>>> smart > > >>>>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection > > must > > >>>>> be > > >>>>>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? > > ethnographers > > >>>>> are > > >>>>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is > > raising > > >>>>>> this > > >>>>>>> issue. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with > > the > > >>>>>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that > > >> the > > >>>>>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may > say > > >>>>> that > > >>>>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in > school > > >> was > > >>>>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I > got > > >> to > > >>>>>> the > > >>>>>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin > > >> under > > >>>>>> the > > >>>>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in > > Chapter 8 > > >>>>> of > > >>>>>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> I?ll end it there. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Henry > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com> > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Henry: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and > > >>>>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the > > >>>>>>> different > > >>>>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker > > somehow > > >>>>>> sees > > >>>>>>> it > > >>>>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space > > within > > >>>>>>> space). > > >>>>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and > > >>>>>>> happenings. > > >>>>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's > > >>>>>>> temporally > > >>>>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine > that > > >>>>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either > > >>>>> proleptically > > >>>>>> or > > >>>>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this > article > > we > > >>>>>> are > > >>>>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or > three > > >>>>> weeks > > >>>>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you > into > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has > > been > > >>>>>>> (past) > > >>>>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to > me > > >>>>> that > > >>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That > > is, > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply > more > > >> and > > >>>>>>> less > > >>>>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for > example > > >> in > > >>>>>>> this > > >>>>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: > the > > >>>>> task > > >>>>>>> of > > >>>>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, > > the > > >>>>>>> scope, > > >>>>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science > > identities > > >>>>> and > > >>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this > > >>>>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed > > out a > > >>>>>>> little > > >>>>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the > > damn > > >>>>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing > > the > > >>>>>>> other: > > >>>>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some > > task > > >>>>>> that > > >>>>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental > space > > >>>>> and > > >>>>>>> not > > >>>>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way > > you > > >>>>>> dig > > >>>>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of > the > > >>>>>>> article: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement > plans", > > >>>>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP > > classes) > > >>>>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or > > what > > >>>>>>> Eckhart > > >>>>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', > > >>>>>> 'gangbangers') > > >>>>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and > > what > > >>>>>> they > > >>>>>>>> think about themselves) > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they > are > > >>>>>>> probably > > >>>>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they > really > > do > > >>>>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). > > >> Different > > >>>>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of > > the > > >>>>>>> school > > >>>>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers > > and > > >>>>>>> groups > > >>>>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. > It's > > >>>>>> always > > >>>>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all > the > > >>>>> data > > >>>>>>> is > > >>>>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against > > what > > >>>>> is > > >>>>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of > > >>>>>>>> intervention is. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured > > by > > >>>>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that > > just > > >>>>> an > > >>>>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words > > (although > > >>>>>> maybe > > >>>>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds > > for > > >>>>>>> hope? > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their > own > > >>>>>>> *history*, > > >>>>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not > make* > > >> it > > >>>>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances > > >> existing > > >>>>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of > > all > > >>>>>> dead > > >>>>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the > living." > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And > it's a > > >>>>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> David Kellogg > > >>>>>>>> Macquarie University > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD < > > hshonerd@gmail.com> > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> All, > > >>>>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I > > >>>>> wanted > > >>>>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera > > John-Steiner > > >>>>> and > > >>>>>>> her > > >>>>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating > > Mathematics: > > >>>>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers > > to > > >>>>>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within > > >> these > > >>>>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and > > >>>>> Reuben?s > > >>>>>>> book > > >>>>>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real > (working) > > >>>>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we > > call > > >>>>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The > Teaching > > >> of > > >>>>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and > > could > > >>>>> be > > >>>>>>>>> relevant to this discussion. > > >>>>>>>>> Henry > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd < > > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Dear Margaret > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave > > it > > >>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous > > term > > >>>>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments > > >> about > > >>>>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place > > of > > >>>>>>>>> identity. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of > > >>>>> "model > > >>>>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM > > subjects > > >>>>>> would > > >>>>>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with > > >>>>> identifying > > >>>>>>>>> with > > >>>>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to > > >> find > > >>>>>>> out" > > >>>>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is > > >>>>>>>>> foregrounded > > >>>>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background > > >>>>> social > > >>>>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing > at > > >> the > > >>>>>>> role > > >>>>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out > about > > >>>>>>> unknowns. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied > set > > of > > >>>>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such > > >> that > > >>>>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable > > within > > >>>>>> these > > >>>>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with > > the > > >>>>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Best, > > >>>>>>>>>> Huw > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < > > >>>>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for > > the > > >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed > > Out.? > > >>>>>> We > > >>>>>>>>> also > > >>>>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the > stream > > >> of > > >>>>>>>>>>> thinking here! > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas > > >> about > > >>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we > would > > >>>>> like > > >>>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the > students > > >>>>> were > > >>>>>>>>> making > > >>>>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them > > >>>>>> through > > >>>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and > figured > > >>>>>> worlds > > >>>>>>>>> are > > >>>>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us > > >>>>> reflected > > >>>>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty > > >>>>> serious > > >>>>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what > > >>>>> theories > > >>>>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of > > >>>>> ?exemplars? > > >>>>>>> we > > >>>>>>>>>>> might turn to. > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < > > >>>>> lpscholar2@gmail.com > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably > > sens > > >>>>> as > > >>>>>>>>> this > > >>>>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within > meaning > > >> and > > >>>>>>>>> sense) > > >>>>>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of > > (hollowed-out) > > >>>>>>> meaning > > >>>>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for > > >>>>>>> developing a > > >>>>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of > > >>>>> social > > >>>>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about > improving > > >>>>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of > > the > > >>>>>>> study > > >>>>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary > > >>>>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, > > can > > >>>>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section > > >> (identity-in-context) > > >>>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured > > worlds). > > >>>>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of > > history-in-person. > > >>>>>> That > > >>>>>>> is > > >>>>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of > > >> person > > >>>>>> one > > >>>>>>>>> is > > >>>>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in > the > > >>>>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries > > >> (figured > > >>>>>>>>> worlds) > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local > > practices > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially > > and > > >>>>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players > are > > >>>>>>>>> recognized > > >>>>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical > psychological > > >>>>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving > meaning* > > >> to > > >>>>>>>>> *what* > > >>>>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we > > >>>>> take. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn > > >>>>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper > > >> ethical > > >>>>>>> turn > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as > > >> well > > >>>>>> as > > >>>>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as > > >>>>>> beacons > > >>>>>>> of > > >>>>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the > > >>>>> neoliberal > > >>>>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from > > >>>>> their > > >>>>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM > > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > >>>>> Re-started > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might > > send > > >>>>>> them > > >>>>>>>>>>>> here: > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to > web > > >>>>> site > > >>>>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to > > >> implement. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> mike > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > > >>>>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for > discussion: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math > and > > >>>>>> Science > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by > Margaret > > >>>>>>> Eisenhart > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so > during > > >> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I > > >> shared > > >>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> link > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion > > to > > >> a > > >>>>>>> halt > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> until > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret > > and > > >>>>>>> Carrie > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, > > but > > >> I > > >>>>>>> also > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce > themselves > > as > > >>>>>> soon > > >>>>>>>>> as > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a > > discussion > > >>>>> of > > >>>>>> an > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An > > >>>>> American > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a > dark > > >> day > > >>>>>> for > > >>>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some > > >>>>> grounds > > >>>>>>> for > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's > home > > >>>>> now, > > >>>>>>> as > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state > of > > >>>>> mind" > > >>>>>>> and > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> that > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> organisation of > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to > > >>>>> Trump's > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of > > >> everyday > > >>>>>>> life. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on > > >>>>> women's > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> scholar > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to > > the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without > halts, I > > >>>>> hope > > >>>>>>>>> this > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> edu> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of > > those > > >>>>>>> still > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she > joins > > us > > >>>>>> next > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> week! > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> edu> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would > > be > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance > > at > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to > wade > > >>>>> into > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have > > until > > >>>>>> next > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> week > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> to think about it. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries > to > > >>>>> catch > > >>>>>>> up! > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> mike > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that > > the > > >>>>>> data > > >>>>>>>>> in > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was > > the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> processes > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to > the > > >>>>>>>>> externally > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study > > using > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> theories > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your > > >>>>>> position. > > >>>>>>> as > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> you > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if > you > > >>>>> are > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this > point > > >> (in > > >>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> case > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, > > but > > >> I > > >>>>>>> think > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it > > >> could > > >>>>>> be > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> traced > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the > > adult > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? > that > > >>>>> this > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> narrative > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but > rather > > >>>>> could > > >>>>>>> be > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> traced > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in > > >>>>> particular > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american > > >>>>> education > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> began? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen > > >>>>> study, > > >>>>>>> what > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> phillip > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the > shallow > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of > meaning > > >> and > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sense. I > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes > > >>>>> *direction* > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> within > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of > > >> depends > > >>>>>> on > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> where > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you > > and > > >>>>>> me) > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> way of > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and > historical > > >>>>> ways > > >>>>>> of > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> being > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the > > >>>>>> *historical-in-person*. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the > > description > > >>>>> of > > >>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing > > >>>>>> circumstances* > > >>>>>>>>> as > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article says: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other > > >>>>>> Sociocultural > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* > that > > >>>>> is, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> learning > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a > > >>>>>> particular > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not stable > or > > >>>>>> fixed. > > >>>>>>>>> As > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too > > may > > >>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & > > >> Skinner, > > >>>>>>>>> 1997). > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity > > processes > > >>>>>> that > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> start > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are > > *external* > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the > > >>>>>> importance > > >>>>>>> of > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or > > primordially > > >>>>> to > > >>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a > > gap > > >>>>> in > > >>>>>>> our > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the > *external* > > >>>>> and > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> highly > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in > > actual*ity. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of > the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few > days, > > >>>>>> unsure > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> where > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to > start" > > >>>>>>> questions > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be > > working > > >>>>>> on. > > >>>>>>> In > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> this > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a > > moment > > >>>>>> which > > >>>>>>>>> is > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the > Big > > >>>>>> Bang. > > >>>>>>>>> But > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to > start > > >>>>> (the > > >>>>>>> Big > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bang > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention > > the > > >>>>>>> origins > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> life). > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just > > >>>>>>> thoughtfully > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sent > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper > > leaves > > >> a > > >>>>>>>>> really > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> big > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this > gap > > is > > >>>>>>>>> largely > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, > > >>>>> 'identity' > > >>>>>>> is > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to > > be > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sustained." > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good > student, > > >>>>>> though > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal > interest, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> excitement, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> or > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." > > (193) > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm > > >>>>>> confident', > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted > in > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> context > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, > > their > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> statements > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system > for > > >>>>>> being > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> good > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity > > >>>>> characteristics > > >>>>>> of > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> being > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work > > quickly, > > >>>>> do > > >>>>>> it > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> without > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." > > >>>>> (193) > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given > by > > >>>>>>> society", > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the > context > > >> of > > >>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> figured > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems > to > > go > > >>>>>>>>> against > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as > Lowena's > > >>>>>> views > > >>>>>>> as > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> a > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that > > >> contradicts > > >>>>>> my > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> data: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that > the > > >>>>>> theory > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also > > >>>>> don't > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I > > think > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>> word > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and > > >>>>> engagement > > >>>>>>> as > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> much > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter > > easily, > > >>>>> do > > >>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> work > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than > > >>>>> others > > >>>>>>> and > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> get > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) > is > > >>>>>>> actually > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "I" > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are > talking > > >>>>>> about, > > >>>>>>>>> and > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation > > >>>>> between > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> their > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the > > activity > > >>>>> at > > >>>>>>>>> hand > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured > world > > >> of > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a > > good > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue > in > > >>>>> both > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and > > "you" > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> relationship > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity > (I > > >>>>> can > > >>>>>>> make > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> up > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> if > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number > > and > > >>>>> a > > >>>>>>>>> class > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> over > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the > > >>>>>> interpersonal > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> somehow > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me > > like a > > >>>>>>>>> strange > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) > > somewhere > > >>>>>>> between > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, > > but > > >> I > > >>>>>>> think > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can > > >>>>> probably > > >>>>>>> find > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and > the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to > > >>>>>>> (Vygotsky) > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" > language > > at > > >>>>>> one > > >>>>>>>>> and > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) > > the > > >>>>>>> moment > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> when > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying > > >> clauses > > >>>>>>> ("I'm > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I > can > > >>>>> pull > > >>>>>>> this > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> off") > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, > > >>>>> which > > >>>>>> is > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> now > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< > > >>>>>> http://www.tandfonline > > >>>>>>> . > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful > > >>>>> paper > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> we > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret > > >>>>>> Eisenhart > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining > Science > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Education > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as > the > > >>>>>> whole > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie > > together > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of > identity > > >> in > > >>>>>>> this > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case). > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion > ?after > > US > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> elections > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us > busy). > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link > >>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 > > >>>>>>>>>>> . > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also > attach > > it > > >>>>> as > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> PDF. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Shea_Learning in Equity-Oriented Scale-Making Projects.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 262360 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161204/f87b06a9/attachment.pdf From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Dec 4 13:08:39 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 13:08:39 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> <1DE83503-218D-4E0B-BD80-C4852B990209@umich.edu> <4941A004-42BE-4BFE-9162-A277710F31ED@umich.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for forwarding the paper and the additional comments, Molly. The more concrete examples we have to work with, including their pre-histories and later fates, the better for understanding how to connect our theories with concrete instantiations. Working simultaneously at different "levels" of the sociopoliticalculturaleconomic system in which our model activities are embedded seems an inescapable methodological requirement. A tall order. Noah Finkelstein's work appears to be taking on that tall task. Larry -- How would you imagine the Finnish nursing care model would be reconfigured if the object of activity were learning to divide fractions and the participants were a bunch of 9-10 year olds and a forty year old teacher in a classroom where the seats are bolted down and keeping order is THE over-riding requirement? mike On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 12:26 PM, molly shea wrote: > Hi Mike, > Thanks for the email. I think the Margaret and Carrie's paper did a great > job of defining and describing the fall out of neoliberal schooling > conditions. The study found "so-called ?high-achieving? students > learning-to-the-tests (i.e., to make high grades) and struggling to > maintain ?good student? identities based in compliant behavior and mundane > activities." The mundane activities is the part that seems so pernicious. > You can almost image being in the interviews with some of the brightest > women and men asking "why are we here? what is the point?". The wonder of > math and science become narrowly focused on future oriented achievement and > future oriented identities that suggest someday this stuff won't be so > mundane. > > However I think some alternative sites of learning math and science sustain > themselves on 1) a better understanding of the history and the people that > constructed and construct the discipline; 2) a better sense of wonderment > (Heidegger) about the possibilities to be surprised, confused, and curious > about how and why the world has become the multiple things that it is or > seems to be; and 3) institutional support that can see a shared value with > these alternative paths. Your Fifth Dimension is an example of taking up a > kind of ambiguity and curiosity and unsettled ideas (Medin and Bang discuss > this in detail on their own terms). Carrie and Margaret's paper does a nice > job of describing the absence of that wonderment or curiosity. Something > they suggest the institutionalized neoliberal education for working class > kids has all but left behind for a march towards progress through test > scores and the improvements of economic security for those who possess > merit in the schooling system. Private schools seem to be a refuge for the > wealthy. Susan Jurow and I discuss how those who want to institutionalize > alternatives must consider the reorganizing of scales to consider how other > forms of becoming can emerge--forms that work towards equity. I am not sure > there are many answers in this quick email, but it is something I am very > interested in understanding and would love to hear other's thoughts. > > Thanks, > Molly > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 11:14 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > Hi Molly -- > > > > The messages have comes frequently and complexly I missed a real response > > to > > your call to examine the positive models provided by Megan that stretched > > from classroom to community groups and look for all the world like great > > science education. A positive alternative. > > > > Phillip mentioned a school he work for 15 years that appeared, from the > > brief description, to embody the kinds of principles being invoked here > as > > an alternative to the neo-liberal model of education-as-commodity. I am > > wondering, Phillip, if there is any description of the conditions that > made > > the creation of an alternative educational practice in a > > command-and-control political economy possible? What conditions sustained > > them? > > > > I would add the Salt Lake City school written about by Barbara Rogoff and > > colleagues as an institutionalized alternative. > > > > I also think the lines of research that Carrie (I believe) referred to as > > models are important but I am always curious about the infrastructure > that > > enables those models to happen in in the first place and the process of > > repair/renewal/keeping on keeping on. This is the line that my colleagues > > and followed in the FifthDimension and subsequent projects. Here there > > appear to be a number of candidates. > > > > I guess this is a question about the social ecology of an alternative > form > > of education that embodies the values that go along with a > > socio-cultural-historical-activity sort a theory. This interest goes > along > > with Phillip's earlier comment > > > > as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning > > and > > > > soocial practices, at core there is always an ideology. > > > > here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. > > > > in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. > > > > both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to > > authority. > > > > > > So the question becomes, i think, is how are we to understand local > > sociocultural ecologies that permit us to carry out the kind of education > > we think maximizes the kind of values that organize our image of our > > children's future worlds. > > > > Galina faced that problem under soviet rule and under oligarchic > > capitalism, we face it under Trumpism. The folks in Singapore live it. > > > > In short: Under what conditions is it possible to institutionalize > > alternatives? > > > > mike > > (Apologies for font messups) > > > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > > > > > Molly > > > > > > This does look like an excellent book. I was just looking at her > > > article and missed this. > > > > > > Many thanks!! > > > > > > Ed > > > > > > > On Dec 2, 2016, at 6:11 PM, molly shea wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > > > > > Megan Bang and Doug Medin wrote an excellent book on Science > Education: > > > > https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/whos-asking > > > > > > > > *Overview* > > > > The answers to scientific questions depend on who?s asking, because > the > > > > questions asked and the answers sought reflect the cultural values > and > > > > orientations of the questioner. These values and orientations are > most > > > > often those of Western science. In Who?s Asking?, Douglas Medin and > > Megan > > > > Bang argue that despite the widely held view that science is > objective, > > > > value-neutral, and acultural, scientists do not shed their cultures > at > > > the > > > > laboratory or classroom door; their practices reflect their values, > > > belief > > > > systems, and worldviews. Medin and Bang argue further that scientist > > > > diversity?the participation of researchers and educators with > different > > > > cultural orientations?provides new perspectives and leads to more > > > effective > > > > science and better science education. > > > > > > > > Medin and Bang compare Native American and European American > > orientations > > > > toward the natural world and apply these findings to science > education. > > > The > > > > European American model, they find, sees humans as separated from > > nature; > > > > the Native American model sees humans as part of a natural ecosystem. > > > Medin > > > > and Bang then report on the development of ecologically oriented and > > > > community-based science education programs on the Menominee > reservation > > > in > > > > Wisconsin and at the American Indian Center of Chicago. Medin and > > Bang?s > > > > novel argument for scientist diversity also has important > implications > > > for > > > > questions of minority underrepresentation in science. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Molly Shea > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > > > > > > > >> Carrie > > > >> > > > >> My read of Barton?s publications is that she is using the Maker > > > >> movement as a platform as regards issues of equity and science taken > > > >> broadly. Is this a fair read or are there other important factors I > am > > > >> missing?? > > > >> > > > >> My read of a nice paper published by Jessica Thompson and others > > in > > > >> TCR is that she sees what she terms as 'rigor and responsiveness? as > > the > > > >> key element. In my words - not hers - key is respect for the > > discipline > > > >> (rigor) and key is respect for each other (responsiveness). Is this > a > > > fair > > > >> read or are there other important factors I am missing? > > > >> > > > >> Megan Bang seems less in the the science/math loop although she > > just > > > >> may not have published much in this area. I did see one paper that, > > one > > > >> might say, addressed what some would term ethnomathematics. > > > >> > > > >> However, I see nothing in the work of these researchers in the > > > discipline > > > >> of mathematics per se. Perhaps you could point me in the right > > > direction? > > > >> > > > >> Here is why I?m asking. Just assume that I am a dumb mathematics > > > educator > > > >> (which I am - smile) and I wish to help those I teach (which I do) - > > > i.e. > > > >> those who will be elementary and secondary mathematics teachers - in > > > >> somehow implementing something like rigor and responsiveness.? I do > > > >> understand that curriculum and teaching are intertwined, but I also > > know > > > >> that teachers enact curriculum and may or may not choose make room > for > > > >> responsiveness (that was also a point in the Thompson article). Now > it > > > is > > > >> possible that all my students will, on their own and in their own > > > >> classrooms, develop substantial notions of rigor and responsiveness, > > > but it > > > >> is possible that some might struggle. What experiences might I and > > > others > > > >> design to help those that struggle; for instance, what constitutes > > rigor > > > >> (one can certainly be under or over rigorous). Likewise, what > > > constitutes > > > >> responsiveness (one certainly doesn?t need to talk to be > responsive). > > > Often > > > >> people such as I do have relations with those, say, in mathematics, > > > child > > > >> development, and educational philosophy (among others). But, perhaps > > you > > > >> don?t see this as happening in the college classroom, but during > > > teaching > > > >> itself. This still raises the interesting question as to what should > > > occur > > > >> in the college classroom (although some would just abolish such > > > classrooms, > > > >> perhaps understandably). Maybe it is too soon to ask such a > question, > > > but > > > >> until it is answered in some pragmatic fashion, dumb mathematics > > > educators > > > >> such as myself will continue muddle to the benefit of none and, > > perhaps, > > > >> detriment of all. > > > >> > > > >> Ed Wall > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> On Dec 1, 2016, at 3:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> Hi all, > > > >>> > > > >>> Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in > > regarding > > > >> other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and > science. > > > >> First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying > > to > > > >> suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow > > ideas > > > >> about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There > are > > > >> certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s > > > work at > > > >> Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s > work > > > at > > > >> the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and > > > >> normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young > > > people in > > > >> the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. > > Math > > > and > > > >> science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making > > sense > > > of > > > >> the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who > > > utilize > > > >> the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, > > > >> questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced > > ways > > > of > > > >> being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means > by > > > >> which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not > entirely > > > sure > > > >> how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are > > > >> ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> -- > > > >>> > > > >>> CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. > > > >>> STEM Researcher > > > >>> SRI International > > > >>> Center for Technology in Learning > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> (650) 859-5262 > > > >>> Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 > > > >>> Skype: carrie.allen_9 > > > >>> > > > >>> On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf > of > > > >> lpscholar2@gmail.com" > > >> lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a > > > >> particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. > > > >>> This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes > > > >> approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of > > our > > > >> inquiry. > > > >>> This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of > > learning. > > > >>> > > > >>> Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be > > > >> foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > >>> > > > >>> From: Edward Wall > > > >>> Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM > > > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > Re-started > > > >>> > > > >>> Larry > > > >>> > > > >>> There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities > (I?m > > > >> not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics > > > >>> > > > >>> 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) > > > >>> 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a > teacher > > at > > > >> one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). > > > >>> 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 > > > >>> 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the > > > >> Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the > > > evidence > > > >> isn?t clear) > > > >>> > > > >>> Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is > > put > > > >> off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; > > > >> however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey > > > >> recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according > to > > > >> some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, > this > > > is a > > > >> bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of > schooling > > > for > > > >> the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). > > > >>> > > > >>> Ed > > > >>> > > > >>>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates > > > >> (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it > > possible > > > we > > > >> are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or > > > >> historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation > that > > > were > > > >> not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or > > incarnate > > > >> deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. > > > >>>> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural > > imaginaries) > > > >> that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture > > well-being? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > >>>> > > > >>>> From: Huw Lloyd > > > >>>> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM > > > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > Re-started > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Alfredo, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems > > > >> inherent > > > >>>> in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues > can > > be > > > >>>> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that > can > > > be > > > >>>> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for > > > "good > > > >>>> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real > > > >> problem > > > >>>> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like > > Davydov's > > > >>>> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". > > > There > > > >>>> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important > > > >>>> implications. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Best, > > > >>>> Huw > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no > > > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> Huw, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, > > social) > > > >>>>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the > > > >> formation > > > >>>>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all > educational > > > >>>>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather > > should > > > be > > > >>>>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, > > *pathological* > > > >> (or > > > >>>>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and > > > >>>>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some > > young > > > >>>>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was > > > Mike > > > >> who > > > >>>>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question > is, > > > >> will > > > >>>>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the > > double > > > >> bind > > > >>>>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only > include > > > the > > > >>>>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a > > higher > > > >> order > > > >>>>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to > > > grow > > > >>>>> rather than come to stall). > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Alfredo > > > >>>>> ________________________________________ > > > >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > edu > > > >>> > > > >>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd > > > >>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 > > > >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > Re-started > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Alfredo, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is > > > >> another > > > >>>>> matter. > > > >>>>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, > > because > > > >> there > > > >>>>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is > > > educational > > > >> -- > > > >>>>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an > Illich > > > >>>>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it > > > just > > > >>>>> takes a different course. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Best, > > > >>>>> Huw > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > > > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates > > to > > > >> this > > > >>>>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach > to > > > >>>>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, > > that > > > >>>>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation > between > > > >> two, > > > >>>>> not > > > >>>>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and > > > >>>>> Phillip's > > > >>>>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as > > all > > > >> we > > > >>>>> do. > > > >>>>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have > > > wonderfully > > > >>>>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in > > > maths, > > > >>>>> but > > > >>>>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can > (whatever > > > that > > > >>>>> best > > > >>>>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and > > context > > > >> that > > > >>>>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop > motives > > > and > > > >>>>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it > > so > > > >> that > > > >>>>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, > > > >> according > > > >>>>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a > > > >> hollowed-out > > > >>>>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had > > > >> illusion > > > >>>>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide > opportunities > > to > > > >>>>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, > but > > > >> also a > > > >>>>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had > grown > > in > > > >>>>> people > > > >>>>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do > we > > > >> have a > > > >>>>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? > > Not > > > >> just > > > >>>>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Alfredo > > > >>>>>> ________________________________________ > > > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > >> edu> > > > >>>>>> on behalf of White, Phillip > > > >>>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 > > > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > Re-started > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't > these > > > >>>>> examples > > > >>>>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at > > where > > > >> she > > > >>>>> is > > > >>>>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a > > > looking > > > >>>>> back > > > >>>>>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then > > > setting > > > >> a > > > >>>>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and > stuff, > > > so > > > >>>>> yeah, > > > >>>>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of > > > present > > > >>>>>> activities to attain future goals. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than > "you". > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused > merely > > on > > > >>>>> their > > > >>>>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is > all > > > >> about > > > >>>>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old > people > > > >> like me > > > >>>>>> do. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data > in > > > >> this > > > >>>>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> phillip > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> ________________________________ > > > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > >> edu> > > > >>>>>> on behalf of David Kellogg > > > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM > > > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > Re-started > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty > > > >> mental > > > >>>>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss > articles > > I > > > >> have > > > >>>>> a > > > >>>>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing > > > rather > > > >>>>> than > > > >>>>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else > is > > > >>>>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense > > of > > > >> some > > > >>>>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on > > tenses, > > > >> and > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in > > and > > > >> out > > > >>>>> of > > > >>>>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at > the > > > way > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we > see > > > >>>>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at > > what > > > >> the > > > >>>>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this > > > >> simply > > > >>>>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take > > simple > > > >>>>> present > > > >>>>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is > it > > > >> because > > > >>>>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and > the > > > >>>>> figured > > > >>>>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is > > youth? > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is > very > > > >> much a > > > >>>>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" > > you > > > >>>>> often > > > >>>>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? > > > >>>>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want > to > > > >> find > > > >>>>> out > > > >>>>>> if anybody really cares. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to > readers: > > > >> both > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of > > > >> statistical > > > >>>>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the > > > morning > > > >>>>> after > > > >>>>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of > > > those > > > >>>>> black > > > >>>>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but > > > couldn't > > > >> be > > > >>>>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class > > voters" > > > >> who > > > >>>>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North > > > >> Carolina > > > >>>>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently > > > knowing > > > >> how > > > >>>>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually > presented > > > as > > > >>>>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself > would > > > be > > > >>>>> part > > > >>>>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models > that > > > use > > > >>>>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the > > > >> impossible > > > >>>>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times > > > without > > > >>>>> any > > > >>>>>> memory at all). > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together > > you > > > >>>>> notice > > > >>>>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on > your > > > >>>>> question, > > > >>>>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend > > to > > > >>>>> change > > > >>>>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On > > the > > > >> one > > > >>>>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too > > > >> wholly > > > >>>>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of > > these > > > >>>>> moments > > > >>>>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, > in > > > >>>>> itself. > > > >>>>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and > > > >> objects > > > >>>>> in > > > >>>>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> David Kellogg > > > >>>>>> Macquarie University > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD < > > hshonerd@gmail.com > > > > > > > >>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> David, > > > >>>>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this > > > topic, > > > >>>>> but > > > >>>>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection > > > between > > > >>>>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as > > staged?interactants > > > >>>>> view > > > >>>>>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben > is > > > >>>>> largely > > > >>>>>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working > mathematicians > > as > > > >>>>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be > > > interesting > > > >>>>> to > > > >>>>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold > > each > > > >>>>> other > > > >>>>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of > > > >> connecting > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media > to > > > >>>>> clarify > > > >>>>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential > > > elections, > > > >>>>> and > > > >>>>>>> what not. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and > > Halliday > > > >> on > > > >>>>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in > > > ?basic > > > >>>>>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he > > has > > > >> said > > > >>>>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As > > > you?d > > > >>>>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating > > what > > > he > > > >>>>>> calls > > > >>>>>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal > > domain > > > >> is > > > >>>>>> more > > > >>>>>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he > > analyzes > > > >>>>> tense > > > >>>>>>> and aspect. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive > grammar > > > has > > > >> a > > > >>>>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is > usage > > > >> based, > > > >>>>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I > > > think > > > >>>>>> there > > > >>>>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though > I?m > > > not > > > >>>>>> smart > > > >>>>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the > connection > > > must > > > >>>>> be > > > >>>>>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? > > > ethnographers > > > >>>>> are > > > >>>>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is > > > raising > > > >>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>> issue. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates > with > > > the > > > >>>>>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say > that > > > >> the > > > >>>>>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may > > say > > > >>>>> that > > > >>>>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in > > school > > > >> was > > > >>>>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I > > got > > > >> to > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at > Austin > > > >> under > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in > > > Chapter 8 > > > >>>>> of > > > >>>>>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> I?ll end it there. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> Henry > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg < > > dkellogg60@gmail.com> > > > >>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Henry: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and > > > >>>>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with > the > > > >>>>>>> different > > > >>>>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker > > > somehow > > > >>>>>> sees > > > >>>>>>> it > > > >>>>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space > > > within > > > >>>>>>> space). > > > >>>>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings > and > > > >>>>>>> happenings. > > > >>>>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: > it's > > > >>>>>>> temporally > > > >>>>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine > > that > > > >>>>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either > > > >>>>> proleptically > > > >>>>>> or > > > >>>>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this > > article > > > we > > > >>>>>> are > > > >>>>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or > > three > > > >>>>> weeks > > > >>>>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you > > into > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article > has > > > been > > > >>>>>>> (past) > > > >>>>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems > to > > me > > > >>>>> that > > > >>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. > That > > > is, > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply > > more > > > >> and > > > >>>>>>> less > > > >>>>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for > > example > > > >> in > > > >>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: > > the > > > >>>>> task > > > >>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the > domain, > > > the > > > >>>>>>> scope, > > > >>>>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science > > > identities > > > >>>>> and > > > >>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this > > > >>>>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed > > > out a > > > >>>>>>> little > > > >>>>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill > the > > > damn > > > >>>>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without > doing > > > the > > > >>>>>>> other: > > > >>>>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some > > > task > > > >>>>>> that > > > >>>>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental > > space > > > >>>>> and > > > >>>>>>> not > > > >>>>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the > way > > > you > > > >>>>>> dig > > > >>>>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of > > the > > > >>>>>>> article: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement > > plans", > > > >>>>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP > > > classes) > > > >>>>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or > > > what > > > >>>>>>> Eckhart > > > >>>>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', > > > >>>>>> 'gangbangers') > > > >>>>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves > and > > > what > > > >>>>>> they > > > >>>>>>>> think about themselves) > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they > > are > > > >>>>>>> probably > > > >>>>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they > > really > > > do > > > >>>>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). > > > >> Different > > > >>>>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings > of > > > the > > > >>>>>>> school > > > >>>>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of > teachers > > > and > > > >>>>>>> groups > > > >>>>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. > > It's > > > >>>>>> always > > > >>>>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all > > the > > > >>>>> data > > > >>>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against > > > what > > > >>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point > of > > > >>>>>>>> intervention is. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are > figured > > > by > > > >>>>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is > that > > > just > > > >>>>> an > > > >>>>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words > > > (although > > > >>>>>> maybe > > > >>>>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real > grounds > > > for > > > >>>>>>> hope? > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their > > own > > > >>>>>>> *history*, > > > >>>>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not > > make* > > > >> it > > > >>>>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances > > > >> existing > > > >>>>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition > of > > > all > > > >>>>>> dead > > > >>>>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the > > living." > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And > > it's a > > > >>>>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> David Kellogg > > > >>>>>>>> Macquarie University > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD < > > > hshonerd@gmail.com> > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> All, > > > >>>>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, > but I > > > >>>>> wanted > > > >>>>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera > > > John-Steiner > > > >>>>> and > > > >>>>>>> her > > > >>>>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating > > > Mathematics: > > > >>>>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which > refers > > > to > > > >>>>>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable > within > > > >> these > > > >>>>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and > > > >>>>> Reuben?s > > > >>>>>>> book > > > >>>>>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real > > (working) > > > >>>>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we > > > call > > > >>>>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The > > Teaching > > > >> of > > > >>>>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and > > > could > > > >>>>> be > > > >>>>>>>>> relevant to this discussion. > > > >>>>>>>>> Henry > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd < > > > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Dear Margaret > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I > leave > > > it > > > >>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous > > > term > > > >>>>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by > arguments > > > >> about > > > >>>>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the > place > > > of > > > >>>>>>>>> identity. > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity > of > > > >>>>> "model > > > >>>>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM > > > subjects > > > >>>>>> would > > > >>>>>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with > > > >>>>> identifying > > > >>>>>>>>> with > > > >>>>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness > to > > > >> find > > > >>>>>>> out" > > > >>>>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity > is > > > >>>>>>>>> foregrounded > > > >>>>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as > background > > > >>>>> social > > > >>>>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing > > at > > > >> the > > > >>>>>>> role > > > >>>>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out > > about > > > >>>>>>> unknowns. > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied > > set > > > of > > > >>>>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, > such > > > >> that > > > >>>>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable > > > within > > > >>>>>> these > > > >>>>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal > with > > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Best, > > > >>>>>>>>>> Huw > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < > > > >>>>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you > for > > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed > > > Out.? > > > >>>>>> We > > > >>>>>>>>> also > > > >>>>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the > > stream > > > >> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>> thinking here! > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? > ideas > > > >> about > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we > > would > > > >>>>> like > > > >>>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the > > students > > > >>>>> were > > > >>>>>>>>> making > > > >>>>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted > them > > > >>>>>> through > > > >>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and > > figured > > > >>>>>> worlds > > > >>>>>>>>> are > > > >>>>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us > > > >>>>> reflected > > > >>>>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some > pretty > > > >>>>> serious > > > >>>>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what > > > >>>>> theories > > > >>>>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of > > > >>>>> ?exemplars? > > > >>>>>>> we > > > >>>>>>>>>>> might turn to. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < > > > >>>>> lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense > (preferably > > > sens > > > >>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within > > meaning > > > >> and > > > >>>>>>>>> sense) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of > > > (hollowed-out) > > > >>>>>>> meaning > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for > > > >>>>>>> developing a > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work > of > > > >>>>> social > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about > > improving > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications > of > > > the > > > >>>>>>> study > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* > to, > > > can > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section > > > >> (identity-in-context) > > > >>>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured > > > worlds). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of > > > history-in-person. > > > >>>>>> That > > > >>>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of > > > >> person > > > >>>>>> one > > > >>>>>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries > > > >> (figured > > > >>>>>>>>> worlds) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local > > > practices > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as > socially > > > and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players > > are > > > >>>>>>>>> recognized > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical > > psychological > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving > > meaning* > > > >> to > > > >>>>>>>>> *what* > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) > we > > > >>>>> take. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper > > > >> ethical > > > >>>>>>> turn > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to > as > > > >> well > > > >>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue > as > > > >>>>>> beacons > > > >>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the > > > >>>>> neoliberal > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts > from > > > >>>>> their > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple > imaginaries > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > > >>>>> Re-started > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might > > > send > > > >>>>>> them > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> here: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to > > web > > > >>>>> site > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to > > > >> implement. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> mike > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > > > >>>>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for > > discussion: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math > > and > > > >>>>>> Science > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by > > Margaret > > > >>>>>>> Eisenhart > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so > > during > > > >> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I > > > >> shared > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> link > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the > discussion > > > to > > > >> a > > > >>>>>>> halt > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> until > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent > Margaret > > > and > > > >>>>>>> Carrie > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch > up, > > > but > > > >> I > > > >>>>>>> also > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce > > themselves > > > as > > > >>>>>> soon > > > >>>>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a > > > discussion > > > >>>>> of > > > >>>>>> an > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An > > > >>>>> American > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a > > dark > > > >> day > > > >>>>>> for > > > >>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer > some > > > >>>>> grounds > > > >>>>>>> for > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's > > home > > > >>>>> now, > > > >>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state > > of > > > >>>>> mind" > > > >>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> that > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a > neoliberal > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> organisation of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to > > > >>>>> Trump's > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of > > > >> everyday > > > >>>>>>> life. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background > on > > > >>>>> women's > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> scholar > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant > to > > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without > > halts, I > > > >>>>> hope > > > >>>>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> edu> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of > > > those > > > >>>>>>> still > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she > > joins > > > us > > > >>>>>> next > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> week! > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> edu> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret > would > > > be > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick > glance > > > at > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to > > wade > > > >>>>> into > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have > > > until > > > >>>>>> next > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> week > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> to think about it. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries > > to > > > >>>>> catch > > > >>>>>>> up! > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> mike > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out > that > > > the > > > >>>>>> data > > > >>>>>>>>> in > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which > was > > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> processes > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to > > the > > > >>>>>>>>> externally > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study > > > using > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> theories > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your > > > >>>>>> position. > > > >>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> you > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if > > you > > > >>>>> are > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this > > point > > > >> (in > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> case > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh > grade, > > > but > > > >> I > > > >>>>>>> think > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that > it > > > >> could > > > >>>>>> be > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> traced > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the > > > adult > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? > > that > > > >>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> narrative > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but > > rather > > > >>>>> could > > > >>>>>>> be > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> traced > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in > > > >>>>> particular > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american > > > >>>>> education > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> began? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the > Eisenhart/Allen > > > >>>>> study, > > > >>>>>>> what > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> phillip > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the > > shallow > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of > > meaning > > > >> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sense. I > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes > > > >>>>> *direction* > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> within > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of > > > >> depends > > > >>>>>> on > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> where > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal > (you > > > and > > > >>>>>> me) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> way of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and > > historical > > > >>>>> ways > > > >>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> being > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the > > > >>>>>> *historical-in-person*. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the > > > description > > > >>>>> of > > > >>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing > > > >>>>>> circumstances* > > > >>>>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article says: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other > > > >>>>>> Sociocultural > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* > > that > > > >>>>> is, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> learning > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a > > > >>>>>> particular > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not > stable > > or > > > >>>>>> fixed. > > > >>>>>>>>> As > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so > too > > > may > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & > > > >> Skinner, > > > >>>>>>>>> 1997). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity > > > processes > > > >>>>>> that > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> start > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are > > > *external* > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the > > > >>>>>> importance > > > >>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or > > > primordially > > > >>>>> to > > > >>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving > a > > > gap > > > >>>>> in > > > >>>>>>> our > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the > > *external* > > > >>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> highly > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in > > > actual*ity. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few > > days, > > > >>>>>> unsure > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> where > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to > > start" > > > >>>>>>> questions > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be > > > working > > > >>>>>> on. > > > >>>>>>> In > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a > > > moment > > > >>>>>> which > > > >>>>>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the > > Big > > > >>>>>> Bang. > > > >>>>>>>>> But > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to > > start > > > >>>>> (the > > > >>>>>>> Big > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bang > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to > mention > > > the > > > >>>>>>> origins > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> life). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just > > > >>>>>>> thoughtfully > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sent > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper > > > leaves > > > >> a > > > >>>>>>>>> really > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> big > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this > > gap > > > is > > > >>>>>>>>> largely > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, > > > >>>>> 'identity' > > > >>>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others > to > > > be > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sustained." > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good > > student, > > > >>>>>> though > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal > > interest, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> excitement, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> or > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." > > > (193) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm > > > >>>>>> confident', > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are > interpreted > > in > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> context > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, > > > their > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> statements > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system > > for > > > >>>>>> being > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> good > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity > > > >>>>> characteristics > > > >>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> being > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work > > > quickly, > > > >>>>> do > > > >>>>>> it > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> without > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an > A." > > > >>>>> (193) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given > > by > > > >>>>>>> society", > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the > > context > > > >> of > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> figured > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems > > to > > > go > > > >>>>>>>>> against > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as > > Lowena's > > > >>>>>> views > > > >>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> a > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that > > > >> contradicts > > > >>>>>> my > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> data: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that > > the > > > >>>>>> theory > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I > also > > > >>>>> don't > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I > > > think > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>> word > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and > > > >>>>> engagement > > > >>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> much > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter > > > easily, > > > >>>>> do > > > >>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> work > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster > than > > > >>>>> others > > > >>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> get > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) > > is > > > >>>>>>> actually > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "I" > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are > > talking > > > >>>>>> about, > > > >>>>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a > relation > > > >>>>> between > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> their > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the > > > activity > > > >>>>> at > > > >>>>>>>>> hand > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured > > world > > > >> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a > > > good > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue > > in > > > >>>>> both > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation > become a > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and > > > "you" > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> relationship > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my > identity > > (I > > > >>>>> can > > > >>>>>>> make > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> up > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own > history, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> if > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a > number > > > and > > > >>>>> a > > > >>>>>>>>> class > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> over > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the > > > >>>>>> interpersonal > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> somehow > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me > > > like a > > > >>>>>>>>> strange > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) > > > somewhere > > > >>>>>>> between > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh > grade, > > > but > > > >> I > > > >>>>>>> think > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can > > > >>>>> probably > > > >>>>>>> find > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back > to > > > >>>>>>> (Vygotsky) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" > > language > > > at > > > >>>>>> one > > > >>>>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and > (Halliday) > > > the > > > >>>>>>> moment > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> when > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying > > > >> clauses > > > >>>>>>> ("I'm > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I > > can > > > >>>>> pull > > > >>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> off") > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for > discussion, > > > >>>>> which > > > >>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> now > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< > > > >>>>>> http://www.tandfonline > > > >>>>>>> . > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's > colourful > > > >>>>> paper > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> we > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by > Margaret > > > >>>>>> Eisenhart > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining > > Science > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Education > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as > > the > > > >>>>>> whole > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie > > > together > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of > > identity > > > >> in > > > >>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion > > ?after > > > US > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> elections > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us > > busy). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link > > >>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 > > > >>>>>>>>>>> . > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also > > attach > > > it > > > >>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> PDF. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > From smago@uga.edu Mon Dec 5 02:43:36 2016 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 10:43:36 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Request from Piaget Society In-Reply-To: <0AEFCF32-619A-4D5C-BAF6-D64C5F4C6C30@northwestern.edu> References: <0AEFCF32-619A-4D5C-BAF6-D64C5F4C6C30@northwestern.edu> Message-ID: From: Carol D Lee [mailto:cdlee@northwestern.edu] Hi All, The Piaget Society is sponsoring an innovative conference on Technologies and Human Development. The conference is being organized by Colette Dauite of CUNY and me. We are writing to see if you would circulate the attached call on your listserves , networks, and through other venues you think would be interested. The deadline for submitting proposals is December 15th, 2016. We have a stellar group of invited keynotes: PLENARY SPEAKERS Michael Cole (University of California, San Diego) & Roy Pea (Stanford University) The living hand of the past: Re-covering the role of technology in human development Kris Guitierrez (University of California, Berkeley) Las Redes and El Pueblo M?gico: Access equality in trans-pedagogical spaces Isabela Granic (Radboud University, Nijmegen) Video games that promote emotional resilience in children and youth Nichole Pinkard (DePaul University, Chicago) The digital youth network: Partnerships for adolescent and community development across time and space Below is a brief description of the focus of the conference: Contemporary theories define human development as an interactive process. Some theories emphasize interpersonal interactions; others focus on individual-societal interactions; and others address interactions via flexible technologies. Drawing on all of those traditions, one of the most intriguing theoretical proposals is that symbolic systems?words, toys, digital devices?are technologies. Such technologies are created in culture, mediate human interactions, and transform culture and development. It is in this symbolic sense that social media, apps, interactive games, and other digital tools become meaningful?in process and in consequence. With such a theoretical foundation to guide research and practice, the invited program for JPS 2017 focuses on the concept ?technology,? in particular digital media, their uses, and impacts in human culture and development. Offering an analytic lens that will not become obsolete with the next new widget, this symposium examines symbol systems and their manifestations. As symbol systems, technologies are stable enough for shared understanding, yet amenable to use and transformation by children, adolescents, and adults across cultural contexts and for diverse purposes. Learning and development with games, social media, digital archives, word processors, and more can, thus, be studied as cultural tools in contexts of practice. We present this generative understanding of technology and human development by scholars with a diverse range of histories, perspectives, and research projects. The conference is more than the invited program, which sets the scene for a wide range of topics, issues, and research questions relevant to cognitive, social, and emotional, and language development. The organizers enthusiastically invite submissions by established and emerging scholars, policy makers, and practitioners working on projects relevant to any aspect of human development. Thanks. Carol Carol D. Lee, Ph.D Edwina S. Tarry Professor of Education and Social Policy Northwestern University 2120 Campus Drive Evanston, ILL 60208 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: JPS2017-Call-for-Papers-3 copy.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 861824 bytes Desc: JPS2017-Call-for-Papers-3 copy.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161205/101c6cbd/attachment-0001.pdf From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Dec 5 09:02:57 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 09:02:57 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com> <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no> <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no> <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com> <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no> <1480807479742.14918@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Dear Colleagues -- Here is my quick translation of Galina's response to my invitation to join the discussion of her paper. (Note that she refers to reflexive thinking which is the topic of a second paper I am not sure everyone has obtained). I would emphasize her point that this work was written in the 1980's, published in 2000, and available to us only now in English. These temporal facts and their implications in terms of judgments about the political context of the work ought to be kept in mind when interpreting aspects of the text. Speaking personally, Phillip's comments about the common values across different systems of state sponsored mass education provide a reasonable interpretive framework. Here are Galina's comments: Michael - I send you a book file, part of which has been translated and is now being discussed. I am of two minds about participating in the discussion. Do I want to participate in the discussion? Yes and no. Yes, because I have never tired of learning. No, because I am tired of the socio-political myths that gradually sinks discussion. With regard to the politics. El'konin and Davydov were and remain dissidents both in relation to their own times, and in the new millennium; and in their personal behavior and professional accomplishments are important for me, because I love these people and their ideas. The book *How do younger school children learn to learn?* (from which the article was selected). It was published in 2000 and written in the late 80s. Is it outdated? Yes and no. Obsolete are the specific examples of learning situations I used to illustrate various pedagogical ideas. But the specific instructional situations described, as a rule, were recorded on the day of testing: the result of the main lessons from a good teacher - an understanding of how today's ideas could be implemented better, fuller, and more clearly remain useful. What has not aged are ideas about interpsychic action, illustrated by these learning situations. At present I will mention only two: 1) Education always introduces asymmetries into development, supporting some potential opportunities and age not supporting others. The dream of all-round harmonious development is unattainable due to the specific relationship of instruction and development. 2) For the *reflexive development* of the child, interaction with adults who are familiar and knowledgeable about the subject matter needs to be supplemented by interaction with peers who do not know the answers and are not more knowledgeable. This [dual necessity] is on the one hand, well known and repeatedly demonstrated, but on the other hand, it is constantly ignored. For me, this is important because it makes re-think one of the most quoted sayings of Vygotsky: "Zone of Proximal Development - is the distance between the level of a child's actual development as determined by the tasks presented that are accomplished independently, and the level of potential development, determined by means of a procedure in which problems are solved under the leadership of adults or in collaboration with more knowledgeable peers." ?Is this another way of formulating Ed Wall's idea of rigor and responsiveness in pedagogical terms? Sort of like modes and relations of production one might say. mike? ? 21-kak-mlsch-uchatsa_2000.pdf ? > >>> >>> From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Dec 5 09:31:05 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 10:31:05 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Yip Harburg Message-ID: Just came across this nice story on blacklisted lyricist Yip Harburg ("Somewhere Over the Rainbow," "Brother, Can you Spare a Dime?"). Seems relevant to the times: https://www.democracynow.org/2016/11/25/a_tribute_to_blacklisted_lyricist_yip ?Cheers, Greg? -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Dec 5 10:44:01 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 10:44:01 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> <1DE83503-218D-4E0B-BD80-C4852B990209@umich.edu> <4941A004-42BE-4BFE-9162-A277710F31ED@umich.edu> Message-ID: <5845b573.c40d620a.8f6ee.ad86@mx.google.com> Mike, Is it possible to reverse the order of your question and to imagine this 40 year old teacher who as a member of a particular public school is presented with an already existing model of organized schooling [along the lines of the Finnish nursing model]. The school personnel then have the option to also follow this model where the teachers have no hierarchical leadership. This would mean the teachers together must take the curriculum [their object in the same way the nurses take as their object a mandate to offer community health care] and decide how to teach fractions. No guarantee that the non-hierarchically organized school would not continue teaching fractions the same old way, but they as teachers would be able to decide to teach in an alternative way. For example they could decide to ask Molly Shea to give inservice to their learning collaborative [and have the freedom to decide this on their own. This recognizes the state as still supplying the funding as distributing the curriculum, [fractions] but I can imagine the question being generated why teaching fractions to our school community is not working as intended. The key shift in organizational structure of community health at the neighbourhood level began in one model instance. No other neighbourhood health team was compelled to enact this non-hierarchical model, but they had the option to follow this model. What is significant is that this model has become the dominant taken for granted way of offering community health care and each patient now sees only two nurses. So... the premise that I am starting from is that the state grants the possibility for a school to elect to operate in this way. That 40 year old teacher would have elected to be a member of this alternative structure, opening the possibility [the not yet but could be] potential of a true learning collaborative that decides how to implement the curriculum. At this point a huge leap of imagination, but we do have a living example in the re-organization of one country?s community health teams Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: mike cole Sent: December 4, 2016 1:11 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Noah Finkelstein Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started Thanks for forwarding the paper and the additional comments, Molly. The more concrete examples we have to work with, including their pre-histories and later fates, the better for understanding how to connect our theories with concrete instantiations. Working simultaneously at different "levels" of the sociopoliticalculturaleconomic system in which our model activities are embedded seems an inescapable methodological requirement. A tall order. Noah Finkelstein's work appears to be taking on that tall task. Larry -- How would you imagine the Finnish nursing care model would be reconfigured if the object of activity were learning to divide fractions and the participants were a bunch of 9-10 year olds and a forty year old teacher in a classroom where the seats are bolted down and keeping order is THE over-riding requirement? mike On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 12:26 PM, molly shea wrote: > Hi Mike, > Thanks for the email. I think the Margaret and Carrie's paper did a great > job of defining and describing the fall out of neoliberal schooling > conditions. The study found "so-called ?high-achieving? students > learning-to-the-tests (i.e., to make high grades) and struggling to > maintain ?good student? identities based in compliant behavior and mundane > activities." The mundane activities is the part that seems so pernicious. > You can almost image being in the interviews with some of the brightest > women and men asking "why are we here? what is the point?". The wonder of > math and science become narrowly focused on future oriented achievement and > future oriented identities that suggest someday this stuff won't be so > mundane. > > However I think some alternative sites of learning math and science sustain > themselves on 1) a better understanding of the history and the people that > constructed and construct the discipline; 2) a better sense of wonderment > (Heidegger) about the possibilities to be surprised, confused, and curious > about how and why the world has become the multiple things that it is or > seems to be; and 3) institutional support that can see a shared value with > these alternative paths. Your Fifth Dimension is an example of taking up a > kind of ambiguity and curiosity and unsettled ideas (Medin and Bang discuss > this in detail on their own terms). Carrie and Margaret's paper does a nice > job of describing the absence of that wonderment or curiosity. Something > they suggest the institutionalized neoliberal education for working class > kids has all but left behind for a march towards progress through test > scores and the improvements of economic security for those who possess > merit in the schooling system. Private schools seem to be a refuge for the > wealthy. Susan Jurow and I discuss how those who want to institutionalize > alternatives must consider the reorganizing of scales to consider how other > forms of becoming can emerge--forms that work towards equity. I am not sure > there are many answers in this quick email, but it is something I am very > interested in understanding and would love to hear other's thoughts. > > Thanks, > Molly > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 11:14 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > Hi Molly -- > > > > The messages have comes frequently and complexly I missed a real response > > to > > your call to examine the positive models provided by Megan that stretched > > from classroom to community groups and look for all the world like great > > science education. A positive alternative. > > > > Phillip mentioned a school he work for 15 years that appeared, from the > > brief description, to embody the kinds of principles being invoked here > as > > an alternative to the neo-liberal model of education-as-commodity. I am > > wondering, Phillip, if there is any description of the conditions that > made > > the creation of an alternative educational practice in a > > command-and-control political economy possible? What conditions sustained > > them? > > > > I would add the Salt Lake City school written about by Barbara Rogoff and > > colleagues as an institutionalized alternative. > > > > I also think the lines of research that Carrie (I believe) referred to as > > models are important but I am always curious about the infrastructure > that > > enables those models to happen in in the first place and the process of > > repair/renewal/keeping on keeping on. This is the line that my colleagues > > and followed in the FifthDimension and subsequent projects. Here there > > appear to be a number of candidates. > > > > I guess this is a question about the social ecology of an alternative > form > > of education that embodies the values that go along with a > > socio-cultural-historical-activity sort a theory. This interest goes > along > > with Phillip's earlier comment > > > > as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning > > and > > > > soocial practices, at core there is always an ideology. > > > > here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. > > > > in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. > > > > both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to > > authority. > > > > > > So the question becomes, i think, is how are we to understand local > > sociocultural ecologies that permit us to carry out the kind of education > > we think maximizes the kind of values that organize our image of our > > children's future worlds. > > > > Galina faced that problem under soviet rule and under oligarchic > > capitalism, we face it under Trumpism. The folks in Singapore live it. > > > > In short: Under what conditions is it possible to institutionalize > > alternatives? > > > > mike > > (Apologies for font messups) > > > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > > > > > Molly > > > > > > This does look like an excellent book. I was just looking at her > > > article and missed this. > > > > > > Many thanks!! > > > > > > Ed > > > > > > > On Dec 2, 2016, at 6:11 PM, molly shea wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > > > > > Megan Bang and Doug Medin wrote an excellent book on Science > Education: > > > > https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/whos-asking > > > > > > > > *Overview* > > > > The answers to scientific questions depend on who?s asking, because > the > > > > questions asked and the answers sought reflect the cultural values > and > > > > orientations of the questioner. These values and orientations are > most > > > > often those of Western science. In Who?s Asking?, Douglas Medin and > > Megan > > > > Bang argue that despite the widely held view that science is > objective, > > > > value-neutral, and acultural, scientists do not shed their cultures > at > > > the > > > > laboratory or classroom door; their practices reflect their values, > > > belief > > > > systems, and worldviews. Medin and Bang argue further that scientist > > > > diversity?the participation of researchers and educators with > different > > > > cultural orientations?provides new perspectives and leads to more > > > effective > > > > science and better science education. > > > > > > > > Medin and Bang compare Native American and European American > > orientations > > > > toward the natural world and apply these findings to science > education. > > > The > > > > European American model, they find, sees humans as separated from > > nature; > > > > the Native American model sees humans as part of a natural ecosystem. > > > Medin > > > > and Bang then report on the development of ecologically oriented and > > > > community-based science education programs on the Menominee > reservation > > > in > > > > Wisconsin and at the American Indian Center of Chicago. Medin and > > Bang?s > > > > novel argument for scientist diversity also has important > implications > > > for > > > > questions of minority underrepresentation in science. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Molly Shea > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > > > > > > > >> Carrie > > > >> > > > >> My read of Barton?s publications is that she is using the Maker > > > >> movement as a platform as regards issues of equity and science taken > > > >> broadly. Is this a fair read or are there other important factors I > am > > > >> missing?? > > > >> > > > >> My read of a nice paper published by Jessica Thompson and others > > in > > > >> TCR is that she sees what she terms as 'rigor and responsiveness? as > > the > > > >> key element. In my words - not hers - key is respect for the > > discipline > > > >> (rigor) and key is respect for each other (responsiveness). Is this > a > > > fair > > > >> read or are there other important factors I am missing? > > > >> > > > >> Megan Bang seems less in the the science/math loop although she > > just > > > >> may not have published much in this area. I did see one paper that, > > one > > > >> might say, addressed what some would term ethnomathematics. > > > >> > > > >> However, I see nothing in the work of these researchers in the > > > discipline > > > >> of mathematics per se. Perhaps you could point me in the right > > > direction? > > > >> > > > >> Here is why I?m asking. Just assume that I am a dumb mathematics > > > educator > > > >> (which I am - smile) and I wish to help those I teach (which I do) - > > > i.e. > > > >> those who will be elementary and secondary mathematics teachers - in > > > >> somehow implementing something like rigor and responsiveness.? I do > > > >> understand that curriculum and teaching are intertwined, but I also > > know > > > >> that teachers enact curriculum and may or may not choose make room > for > > > >> responsiveness (that was also a point in the Thompson article). Now > it > > > is > > > >> possible that all my students will, on their own and in their own > > > >> classrooms, develop substantial notions of rigor and responsiveness, > > > but it > > > >> is possible that some might struggle. What experiences might I and > > > others > > > >> design to help those that struggle; for instance, what constitutes > > rigor > > > >> (one can certainly be under or over rigorous). Likewise, what > > > constitutes > > > >> responsiveness (one certainly doesn?t need to talk to be > responsive). > > > Often > > > >> people such as I do have relations with those, say, in mathematics, > > > child > > > >> development, and educational philosophy (among others). But, perhaps > > you > > > >> don?t see this as happening in the college classroom, but during > > > teaching > > > >> itself. This still raises the interesting question as to what should > > > occur > > > >> in the college classroom (although some would just abolish such > > > classrooms, > > > >> perhaps understandably). Maybe it is too soon to ask such a > question, > > > but > > > >> until it is answered in some pragmatic fashion, dumb mathematics > > > educators > > > >> such as myself will continue muddle to the benefit of none and, > > perhaps, > > > >> detriment of all. > > > >> > > > >> Ed Wall > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> On Dec 1, 2016, at 3:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> Hi all, > > > >>> > > > >>> Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in > > regarding > > > >> other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and > science. > > > >> First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying > > to > > > >> suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow > > ideas > > > >> about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There > are > > > >> certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s > > > work at > > > >> Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s > work > > > at > > > >> the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and > > > >> normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young > > > people in > > > >> the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. > > Math > > > and > > > >> science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making > > sense > > > of > > > >> the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who > > > utilize > > > >> the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, > > > >> questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced > > ways > > > of > > > >> being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means > by > > > >> which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not > entirely > > > sure > > > >> how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are > > > >> ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> -- > > > >>> > > > >>> CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. > > > >>> STEM Researcher > > > >>> SRI International > > > >>> Center for Technology in Learning > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> (650) 859-5262 > > > >>> Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 > > > >>> Skype: carrie.allen_9 > > > >>> > > > >>> On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf > of > > > >> lpscholar2@gmail.com" > > >> lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a > > > >> particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. > > > >>> This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes > > > >> approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of > > our > > > >> inquiry. > > > >>> This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of > > learning. > > > >>> > > > >>> Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be > > > >> foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > >>> > > > >>> From: Edward Wall > > > >>> Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM > > > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > Re-started > > > >>> > > > >>> Larry > > > >>> > > > >>> There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities > (I?m > > > >> not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics > > > >>> > > > >>> 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) > > > >>> 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a > teacher > > at > > > >> one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). > > > >>> 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 > > > >>> 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the > > > >> Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the > > > evidence > > > >> isn?t clear) > > > >>> > > > >>> Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is > > put > > > >> off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; > > > >> however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey > > > >> recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according > to > > > >> some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, > this > > > is a > > > >> bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of > schooling > > > for > > > >> the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). > > > >>> > > > >>> Ed > > > >>> > > > >>>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates > > > >> (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it > > possible > > > we > > > >> are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or > > > >> historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation > that > > > were > > > >> not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or > > incarnate > > > >> deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. > > > >>>> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural > > imaginaries) > > > >> that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture > > well-being? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > >>>> > > > >>>> From: Huw Lloyd > > > >>>> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM > > > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > Re-started > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Alfredo, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems > > > >> inherent > > > >>>> in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues > can > > be > > > >>>> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that > can > > > be > > > >>>> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for > > > "good > > > >>>> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real > > > >> problem > > > >>>> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like > > Davydov's > > > >>>> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". > > > There > > > >>>> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important > > > >>>> implications. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Best, > > > >>>> Huw > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no > > > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> Huw, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, > > social) > > > >>>>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the > > > >> formation > > > >>>>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all > educational > > > >>>>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather > > should > > > be > > > >>>>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, > > *pathological* > > > >> (or > > > >>>>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and > > > >>>>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some > > young > > > >>>>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was > > > Mike > > > >> who > > > >>>>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question > is, > > > >> will > > > >>>>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the > > double > > > >> bind > > > >>>>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only > include > > > the > > > >>>>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a > > higher > > > >> order > > > >>>>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to > > > grow > > > >>>>> rather than come to stall). > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Alfredo > > > >>>>> ________________________________________ > > > >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > edu > > > >>> > > > >>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd > > > >>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 > > > >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > Re-started > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Alfredo, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is > > > >> another > > > >>>>> matter. > > > >>>>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, > > because > > > >> there > > > >>>>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is > > > educational > > > >> -- > > > >>>>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an > Illich > > > >>>>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it > > > just > > > >>>>> takes a different course. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Best, > > > >>>>> Huw > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > > > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates > > to > > > >> this > > > >>>>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach > to > > > >>>>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, > > that > > > >>>>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation > between > > > >> two, > > > >>>>> not > > > >>>>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and > > > >>>>> Phillip's > > > >>>>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as > > all > > > >> we > > > >>>>> do. > > > >>>>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have > > > wonderfully > > > >>>>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in > > > maths, > > > >>>>> but > > > >>>>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can > (whatever > > > that > > > >>>>> best > > > >>>>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and > > context > > > >> that > > > >>>>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop > motives > > > and > > > >>>>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it > > so > > > >> that > > > >>>>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, > > > >> according > > > >>>>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a > > > >> hollowed-out > > > >>>>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had > > > >> illusion > > > >>>>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide > opportunities > > to > > > >>>>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, > but > > > >> also a > > > >>>>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had > grown > > in > > > >>>>> people > > > >>>>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do > we > > > >> have a > > > >>>>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? > > Not > > > >> just > > > >>>>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Alfredo > > > >>>>>> ________________________________________ > > > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > >> edu> > > > >>>>>> on behalf of White, Phillip > > > >>>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 > > > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > Re-started > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't > these > > > >>>>> examples > > > >>>>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at > > where > > > >> she > > > >>>>> is > > > >>>>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a > > > looking > > > >>>>> back > > > >>>>>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then > > > setting > > > >> a > > > >>>>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and > stuff, > > > so > > > >>>>> yeah, > > > >>>>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of > > > present > > > >>>>>> activities to attain future goals. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than > "you". > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused > merely > > on > > > >>>>> their > > > >>>>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is > all > > > >> about > > > >>>>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old > people > > > >> like me > > > >>>>>> do. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data > in > > > >> this > > > >>>>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> phillip > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> ________________________________ > > > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > >> edu> > > > >>>>>> on behalf of David Kellogg > > > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM > > > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > Re-started > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty > > > >> mental > > > >>>>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss > articles > > I > > > >> have > > > >>>>> a > > > >>>>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing > > > rather > > > >>>>> than > > > >>>>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else > is > > > >>>>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense > > of > > > >> some > > > >>>>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on > > tenses, > > > >> and > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in > > and > > > >> out > > > >>>>> of > > > >>>>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at > the > > > way > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we > see > > > >>>>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at > > what > > > >> the > > > >>>>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this > > > >> simply > > > >>>>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take > > simple > > > >>>>> present > > > >>>>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is > it > > > >> because > > > >>>>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and > the > > > >>>>> figured > > > >>>>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is > > youth? > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is > very > > > >> much a > > > >>>>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" > > you > > > >>>>> often > > > >>>>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? > > > >>>>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want > to > > > >> find > > > >>>>> out > > > >>>>>> if anybody really cares. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to > readers: > > > >> both > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of > > > >> statistical > > > >>>>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the > > > morning > > > >>>>> after > > > >>>>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of > > > those > > > >>>>> black > > > >>>>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but > > > couldn't > > > >> be > > > >>>>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class > > voters" > > > >> who > > > >>>>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North > > > >> Carolina > > > >>>>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently > > > knowing > > > >> how > > > >>>>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually > presented > > > as > > > >>>>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself > would > > > be > > > >>>>> part > > > >>>>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models > that > > > use > > > >>>>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the > > > >> impossible > > > >>>>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times > > > without > > > >>>>> any > > > >>>>>> memory at all). > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together > > you > > > >>>>> notice > > > >>>>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on > your > > > >>>>> question, > > > >>>>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend > > to > > > >>>>> change > > > >>>>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On > > the > > > >> one > > > >>>>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too > > > >> wholly > > > >>>>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of > > these > > > >>>>> moments > > > >>>>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, > in > > > >>>>> itself. > > > >>>>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and > > > >> objects > > > >>>>> in > > > >>>>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> David Kellogg > > > >>>>>> Macquarie University > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD < > > hshonerd@gmail.com > > > > > > > >>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> David, > > > >>>>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this > > > topic, > > > >>>>> but > > > >>>>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection > > > between > > > >>>>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as > > staged?interactants > > > >>>>> view > > > >>>>>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben > is > > > >>>>> largely > > > >>>>>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working > mathematicians > > as > > > >>>>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be > > > interesting > > > >>>>> to > > > >>>>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold > > each > > > >>>>> other > > > >>>>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of > > > >> connecting > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media > to > > > >>>>> clarify > > > >>>>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential > > > elections, > > > >>>>> and > > > >>>>>>> what not. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and > > Halliday > > > >> on > > > >>>>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in > > > ?basic > > > >>>>>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he > > has > > > >> said > > > >>>>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As > > > you?d > > > >>>>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating > > what > > > he > > > >>>>>> calls > > > >>>>>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal > > domain > > > >> is > > > >>>>>> more > > > >>>>>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he > > analyzes > > > >>>>> tense > > > >>>>>>> and aspect. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive > grammar > > > has > > > >> a > > > >>>>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is > usage > > > >> based, > > > >>>>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I > > > think > > > >>>>>> there > > > >>>>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though > I?m > > > not > > > >>>>>> smart > > > >>>>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the > connection > > > must > > > >>>>> be > > > >>>>>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? > > > ethnographers > > > >>>>> are > > > >>>>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is > > > raising > > > >>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>> issue. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates > with > > > the > > > >>>>>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say > that > > > >> the > > > >>>>>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may > > say > > > >>>>> that > > > >>>>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in > > school > > > >> was > > > >>>>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I > > got > > > >> to > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at > Austin > > > >> under > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in > > > Chapter 8 > > > >>>>> of > > > >>>>>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> I?ll end it there. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> Henry > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg < > > dkellogg60@gmail.com> > > > >>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Henry: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and > > > >>>>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with > the > > > >>>>>>> different > > > >>>>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker > > > somehow > > > >>>>>> sees > > > >>>>>>> it > > > >>>>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space > > > within > > > >>>>>>> space). > > > >>>>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings > and > > > >>>>>>> happenings. > > > >>>>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: > it's > > > >>>>>>> temporally > > > >>>>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine > > that > > > >>>>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either > > > >>>>> proleptically > > > >>>>>> or > > > >>>>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this > > article > > > we > > > >>>>>> are > > > >>>>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or > > three > > > >>>>> weeks > > > >>>>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you > > into > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article > has > > > been > > > >>>>>>> (past) > > > >>>>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems > to > > me > > > >>>>> that > > > >>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. > That > > > is, > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply > > more > > > >> and > > > >>>>>>> less > > > >>>>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for > > example > > > >> in > > > >>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: > > the > > > >>>>> task > > > >>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the > domain, > > > the > > > >>>>>>> scope, > > > >>>>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science > > > identities > > > >>>>> and > > > >>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this > > > >>>>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed > > > out a > > > >>>>>>> little > > > >>>>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill > the > > > damn > > > >>>>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without > doing > > > the > > > >>>>>>> other: > > > >>>>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some > > > task > > > >>>>>> that > > > >>>>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental > > space > > > >>>>> and > > > >>>>>>> not > > > >>>>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the > way > > > you > > > >>>>>> dig > > > >>>>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of > > the > > > >>>>>>> article: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement > > plans", > > > >>>>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP > > > classes) > > > >>>>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or > > > what > > > >>>>>>> Eckhart > > > >>>>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', > > > >>>>>> 'gangbangers') > > > >>>>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves > and > > > what > > > >>>>>> they > > > >>>>>>>> think about themselves) > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they > > are > > > >>>>>>> probably > > > >>>>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they > > really > > > do > > > >>>>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). > > > >> Different > > > >>>>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings > of > > > the > > > >>>>>>> school > > > >>>>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of > teachers > > > and > > > >>>>>>> groups > > > >>>>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. > > It's > > > >>>>>> always > > > >>>>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all > > the > > > >>>>> data > > > >>>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against > > > what > > > >>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point > of > > > >>>>>>>> intervention is. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are > figured > > > by > > > >>>>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is > that > > > just > > > >>>>> an > > > >>>>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words > > > (although > > > >>>>>> maybe > > > >>>>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real > grounds > > > for > > > >>>>>>> hope? > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their > > own > > > >>>>>>> *history*, > > > >>>>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not > > make* > > > >> it > > > >>>>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances > > > >> existing > > > >>>>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition > of > > > all > > > >>>>>> dead > > > >>>>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the > > living." > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And > > it's a > > > >>>>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> David Kellogg > > > >>>>>>>> Macquarie University > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD < > > > hshonerd@gmail.com> > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> All, > > > >>>>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, > but I > > > >>>>> wanted > > > >>>>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera > > > John-Steiner > > > >>>>> and > > > >>>>>>> her > > > >>>>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating > > > Mathematics: > > > >>>>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which > refers > > > to > > > >>>>>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable > within > > > >> these > > > >>>>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and > > > >>>>> Reuben?s > > > >>>>>>> book > > > >>>>>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real > > (working) > > > >>>>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we > > > call > > > >>>>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The > > Teaching > > > >> of > > > >>>>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and > > > could > > > >>>>> be > > > >>>>>>>>> relevant to this discussion. > > > >>>>>>>>> Henry > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd < > > > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Dear Margaret > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I > leave > > > it > > > >>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous > > > term > > > >>>>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by > arguments > > > >> about > > > >>>>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the > place > > > of > > > >>>>>>>>> identity. > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity > of > > > >>>>> "model > > > >>>>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM > > > subjects > > > >>>>>> would > > > >>>>>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with > > > >>>>> identifying > > > >>>>>>>>> with > > > >>>>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness > to > > > >> find > > > >>>>>>> out" > > > >>>>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity > is > > > >>>>>>>>> foregrounded > > > >>>>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as > background > > > >>>>> social > > > >>>>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing > > at > > > >> the > > > >>>>>>> role > > > >>>>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out > > about > > > >>>>>>> unknowns. > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied > > set > > > of > > > >>>>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, > such > > > >> that > > > >>>>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable > > > within > > > >>>>>> these > > > >>>>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal > with > > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Best, > > > >>>>>>>>>> Huw > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < > > > >>>>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you > for > > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed > > > Out.? > > > >>>>>> We > > > >>>>>>>>> also > > > >>>>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the > > stream > > > >> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>> thinking here! > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? > ideas > > > >> about > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we > > would > > > >>>>> like > > > >>>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the > > students > > > >>>>> were > > > >>>>>>>>> making > > > >>>>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted > them > > > >>>>>> through > > > >>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and > > figured > > > >>>>>> worlds > > > >>>>>>>>> are > > > >>>>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us > > > >>>>> reflected > > > >>>>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some > pretty > > > >>>>> serious > > > >>>>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what > > > >>>>> theories > > > >>>>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of > > > >>>>> ?exemplars? > > > >>>>>>> we > > > >>>>>>>>>>> might turn to. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < > > > >>>>> lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense > (preferably > > > sens > > > >>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within > > meaning > > > >> and > > > >>>>>>>>> sense) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of > > > (hollowed-out) > > > >>>>>>> meaning > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for > > > >>>>>>> developing a > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work > of > > > >>>>> social > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about > > improving > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications > of > > > the > > > >>>>>>> study > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* > to, > > > can > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section > > > >> (identity-in-context) > > > >>>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured > > > worlds). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of > > > history-in-person. > > > >>>>>> That > > > >>>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of > > > >> person > > > >>>>>> one > > > >>>>>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries > > > >> (figured > > > >>>>>>>>> worlds) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local > > > practices > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as > socially > > > and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players > > are > > > >>>>>>>>> recognized > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical > > psychological > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving > > meaning* > > > >> to > > > >>>>>>>>> *what* > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) > we > > > >>>>> take. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper > > > >> ethical > > > >>>>>>> turn > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to > as > > > >> well > > > >>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue > as > > > >>>>>> beacons > > > >>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the > > > >>>>> neoliberal > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts > from > > > >>>>> their > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple > imaginaries > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > > >>>>> Re-started > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might > > > send > > > >>>>>> them > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> here: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to > > web > > > >>>>> site > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to > > > >> implement. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> mike > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > > > >>>>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for > > discussion: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math > > and > > > >>>>>> Science > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by > > Margaret > > > >>>>>>> Eisenhart > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so > > during > > > >> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I > > > >> shared > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> link > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the > discussion > > > to > > > >> a > > > >>>>>>> halt > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> until > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent > Margaret > > > and > > > >>>>>>> Carrie > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch > up, > > > but > > > >> I > > > >>>>>>> also > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce > > themselves > > > as > > > >>>>>> soon > > > >>>>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a > > > discussion > > > >>>>> of > > > >>>>>> an > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An > > > >>>>> American > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a > > dark > > > >> day > > > >>>>>> for > > > >>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer > some > > > >>>>> grounds > > > >>>>>>> for > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's > > home > > > >>>>> now, > > > >>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state > > of > > > >>>>> mind" > > > >>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> that > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a > neoliberal > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> organisation of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to > > > >>>>> Trump's > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of > > > >> everyday > > > >>>>>>> life. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background > on > > > >>>>> women's > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> scholar > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant > to > > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without > > halts, I > > > >>>>> hope > > > >>>>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> edu> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of > > > those > > > >>>>>>> still > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she > > joins > > > us > > > >>>>>> next > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> week! > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> edu> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret > would > > > be > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick > glance > > > at > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to > > wade > > > >>>>> into > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have > > > until > > > >>>>>> next > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> week > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> to think about it. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries > > to > > > >>>>> catch > > > >>>>>>> up! > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> mike > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out > that > > > the > > > >>>>>> data > > > >>>>>>>>> in > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which > was > > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> processes > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to > > the > > > >>>>>>>>> externally > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study > > > using > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> theories > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your > > > >>>>>> position. > > > >>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> you > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if > > you > > > >>>>> are > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this > > point > > > >> (in > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> case > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh > grade, > > > but > > > >> I > > > >>>>>>> think > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that > it > > > >> could > > > >>>>>> be > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> traced > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the > > > adult > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? > > that > > > >>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> narrative > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but > > rather > > > >>>>> could > > > >>>>>>> be > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> traced > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in > > > >>>>> particular > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american > > > >>>>> education > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> began? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the > Eisenhart/Allen > > > >>>>> study, > > > >>>>>>> what > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> phillip > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the > > shallow > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of > > meaning > > > >> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sense. I > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes > > > >>>>> *direction* > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> within > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of > > > >> depends > > > >>>>>> on > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> where > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal > (you > > > and > > > >>>>>> me) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> way of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and > > historical > > > >>>>> ways > > > >>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> being > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the > > > >>>>>> *historical-in-person*. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the > > > description > > > >>>>> of > > > >>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing > > > >>>>>> circumstances* > > > >>>>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article says: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other > > > >>>>>> Sociocultural > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* > > that > > > >>>>> is, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> learning > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a > > > >>>>>> particular > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not > stable > > or > > > >>>>>> fixed. > > > >>>>>>>>> As > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so > too > > > may > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & > > > >> Skinner, > > > >>>>>>>>> 1997). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity > > > processes > > > >>>>>> that > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> start > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are > > > *external* > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the > > > >>>>>> importance > > > >>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or > > > primordially > > > >>>>> to > > > >>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving > a > > > gap > > > >>>>> in > > > >>>>>>> our > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the > > *external* > > > >>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> highly > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in > > > actual*ity. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few > > days, > > > >>>>>> unsure > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> where > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to > > start" > > > >>>>>>> questions > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be > > > working > > > >>>>>> on. > > > >>>>>>> In > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a > > > moment > > > >>>>>> which > > > >>>>>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the > > Big > > > >>>>>> Bang. > > > >>>>>>>>> But > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to > > start > > > >>>>> (the > > > >>>>>>> Big > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bang > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to > mention > > > the > > > >>>>>>> origins > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> life). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just > > > >>>>>>> thoughtfully > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sent > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper > > > leaves > > > >> a > > > >>>>>>>>> really > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> big > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this > > gap > > > is > > > >>>>>>>>> largely > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, > > > >>>>> 'identity' > > > >>>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others > to > > > be > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sustained." > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good > > student, > > > >>>>>> though > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal > > interest, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> excitement, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> or > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." > > > (193) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm > > > >>>>>> confident', > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are > interpreted > > in > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> context > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, > > > their > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> statements > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system > > for > > > >>>>>> being > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> good > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity > > > >>>>> characteristics > > > >>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> being > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work > > > quickly, > > > >>>>> do > > > >>>>>> it > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> without > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an > A." > > > >>>>> (193) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given > > by > > > >>>>>>> society", > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the > > context > > > >> of > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> figured > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems > > to > > > go > > > >>>>>>>>> against > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as > > Lowena's > > > >>>>>> views > > > >>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> a > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that > > > >> contradicts > > > >>>>>> my > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> data: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that > > the > > > >>>>>> theory > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I > also > > > >>>>> don't > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I > > > think > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>> word > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and > > > >>>>> engagement > > > >>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> much > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter > > > easily, > > > >>>>> do > > > >>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> work > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster > than > > > >>>>> others > > > >>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> get > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) > > is > > > >>>>>>> actually > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "I" > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are > > talking > > > >>>>>> about, > > > >>>>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a > relation > > > >>>>> between > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> their > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the > > > activity > > > >>>>> at > > > >>>>>>>>> hand > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured > > world > > > >> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a > > > good > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue > > in > > > >>>>> both > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation > become a > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and > > > "you" > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> relationship > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my > identity > > (I > > > >>>>> can > > > >>>>>>> make > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> up > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own > history, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> if > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a > number > > > and > > > >>>>> a > > > >>>>>>>>> class > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> over > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the > > > >>>>>> interpersonal > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> somehow > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me > > > like a > > > >>>>>>>>> strange > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) > > > somewhere > > > >>>>>>> between > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh > grade, > > > but > > > >> I > > > >>>>>>> think > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can > > > >>>>> probably > > > >>>>>>> find > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back > to > > > >>>>>>> (Vygotsky) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" > > language > > > at > > > >>>>>> one > > > >>>>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and > (Halliday) > > > the > > > >>>>>>> moment > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> when > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying > > > >> clauses > > > >>>>>>> ("I'm > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I > > can > > > >>>>> pull > > > >>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> off") > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for > discussion, > > > >>>>> which > > > >>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> now > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< > > > >>>>>> http://www.tandfonline > > > >>>>>>> . > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's > colourful > > > >>>>> paper > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> we > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by > Margaret > > > >>>>>> Eisenhart > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining > > Science > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Education > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as > > the > > > >>>>>> whole > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie > > > together > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of > > identity > > > >> in > > > >>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion > > ?after > > > US > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> elections > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us > > busy). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link > > >>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 > > > >>>>>>>>>>> . > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also > > attach > > > it > > > >>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> PDF. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Dec 5 11:18:22 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 11:18:22 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> <1DE83503-218D-4E0B-BD80-C4852B990209@umich.edu> <4941A004-42BE-4BFE-9162-A277710F31ED@umich.edu> Message-ID: <5845bd81.1d8a620a.ea283.ba95@mx.google.com> Mike, Is it possible to reverse the order of your question and to imagine this 40 year old teacher who as a member of a particular public school is presented with an already existing model of organized schooling [along the lines of the Finnish nursing model]. The school personnel then have the option to also follow this model where the teachers have no hierarchical leadership. This would mean the teachers together must take the curriculum [their object in the same way the nurses take as their object a mandate to offer community health care] and decide how to teach fractions. No guarantee that the non-hierarchically organized school would not continue teaching fractions the same old way, but they as teachers would be able to decide to teach in an alternative way. For example they could decide to ask Molly Shea to give inservice to their learning collaborative [and have the freedom to decide this on their own. This recognizes the state as still supplying the funding as distributing the curriculum, [fractions] but I can imagine the question being generated why teaching fractions to our school community is not working as intended. The key shift in organizational structure of community health at the neighbourhood level began in one model instance. No other neighbourhood health team was compelled to enact this non-hierarchical model, but they had the option to follow this model. What is significant is that this model has become the dominant taken for granted way of offering community health care and each patient now sees only two nurses. So... the premise that I am starting from is that the state grants the possibility for a school to elect to operate in this way. That 40 year old teacher would have elected to be a member of this alternative structure, opening the possibility [the not yet but could be] potential of a true learning collaborative that decides how to implement the curriculum. At this point a huge leap of imagination, but we do have a living example in the re-organization of one country?s community health teams Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: mike cole Sent: December 4, 2016 1:11 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Noah Finkelstein Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started Thanks for forwarding the paper and the additional comments, Molly. The more concrete examples we have to work with, including their pre-histories and later fates, the better for understanding how to connect our theories with concrete instantiations. Working simultaneously at different "levels" of the sociopoliticalculturaleconomic system in which our model activities are embedded seems an inescapable methodological requirement. A tall order. Noah Finkelstein's work appears to be taking on that tall task. Larry -- How would you imagine the Finnish nursing care model would be reconfigured if the object of activity were learning to divide fractions and the participants were a bunch of 9-10 year olds and a forty year old teacher in a classroom where the seats are bolted down and keeping order is THE over-riding requirement? mike On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 12:26 PM, molly shea wrote: > Hi Mike, > Thanks for the email. I think the Margaret and Carrie's paper did a great > job of defining and describing the fall out of neoliberal schooling > conditions. The study found "so-called ?high-achieving? students > learning-to-the-tests (i.e., to make high grades) and struggling to > maintain ?good student? identities based in compliant behavior and mundane > activities." The mundane activities is the part that seems so pernicious. > You can almost image being in the interviews with some of the brightest > women and men asking "why are we here? what is the point?". The wonder of > math and science become narrowly focused on future oriented achievement and > future oriented identities that suggest someday this stuff won't be so > mundane. > > However I think some alternative sites of learning math and science sustain > themselves on 1) a better understanding of the history and the people that > constructed and construct the discipline; 2) a better sense of wonderment > (Heidegger) about the possibilities to be surprised, confused, and curious > about how and why the world has become the multiple things that it is or > seems to be; and 3) institutional support that can see a shared value with > these alternative paths. Your Fifth Dimension is an example of taking up a > kind of ambiguity and curiosity and unsettled ideas (Medin and Bang discuss > this in detail on their own terms). Carrie and Margaret's paper does a nice > job of describing the absence of that wonderment or curiosity. Something > they suggest the institutionalized neoliberal education for working class > kids has all but left behind for a march towards progress through test > scores and the improvements of economic security for those who possess > merit in the schooling system. Private schools seem to be a refuge for the > wealthy. Susan Jurow and I discuss how those who want to institutionalize > alternatives must consider the reorganizing of scales to consider how other > forms of becoming can emerge--forms that work towards equity. I am not sure > there are many answers in this quick email, but it is something I am very > interested in understanding and would love to hear other's thoughts. > > Thanks, > Molly > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 11:14 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > Hi Molly -- > > > > The messages have comes frequently and complexly I missed a real response > > to > > your call to examine the positive models provided by Megan that stretched > > from classroom to community groups and look for all the world like great > > science education. A positive alternative. > > > > Phillip mentioned a school he work for 15 years that appeared, from the > > brief description, to embody the kinds of principles being invoked here > as > > an alternative to the neo-liberal model of education-as-commodity. I am > > wondering, Phillip, if there is any description of the conditions that > made > > the creation of an alternative educational practice in a > > command-and-control political economy possible? What conditions sustained > > them? > > > > I would add the Salt Lake City school written about by Barbara Rogoff and > > colleagues as an institutionalized alternative. > > > > I also think the lines of research that Carrie (I believe) referred to as > > models are important but I am always curious about the infrastructure > that > > enables those models to happen in in the first place and the process of > > repair/renewal/keeping on keeping on. This is the line that my colleagues > > and followed in the FifthDimension and subsequent projects. Here there > > appear to be a number of candidates. > > > > I guess this is a question about the social ecology of an alternative > form > > of education that embodies the values that go along with a > > socio-cultural-historical-activity sort a theory. This interest goes > along > > with Phillip's earlier comment > > > > as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning > > and > > > > soocial practices, at core there is always an ideology. > > > > here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism. > > > > in russia it was communism, and now Putinism. > > > > both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to > > authority. > > > > > > So the question becomes, i think, is how are we to understand local > > sociocultural ecologies that permit us to carry out the kind of education > > we think maximizes the kind of values that organize our image of our > > children's future worlds. > > > > Galina faced that problem under soviet rule and under oligarchic > > capitalism, we face it under Trumpism. The folks in Singapore live it. > > > > In short: Under what conditions is it possible to institutionalize > > alternatives? > > > > mike > > (Apologies for font messups) > > > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > > > > > Molly > > > > > > This does look like an excellent book. I was just looking at her > > > article and missed this. > > > > > > Many thanks!! > > > > > > Ed > > > > > > > On Dec 2, 2016, at 6:11 PM, molly shea wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > > > > > Megan Bang and Doug Medin wrote an excellent book on Science > Education: > > > > https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/whos-asking > > > > > > > > *Overview* > > > > The answers to scientific questions depend on who?s asking, because > the > > > > questions asked and the answers sought reflect the cultural values > and > > > > orientations of the questioner. These values and orientations are > most > > > > often those of Western science. In Who?s Asking?, Douglas Medin and > > Megan > > > > Bang argue that despite the widely held view that science is > objective, > > > > value-neutral, and acultural, scientists do not shed their cultures > at > > > the > > > > laboratory or classroom door; their practices reflect their values, > > > belief > > > > systems, and worldviews. Medin and Bang argue further that scientist > > > > diversity?the participation of researchers and educators with > different > > > > cultural orientations?provides new perspectives and leads to more > > > effective > > > > science and better science education. > > > > > > > > Medin and Bang compare Native American and European American > > orientations > > > > toward the natural world and apply these findings to science > education. > > > The > > > > European American model, they find, sees humans as separated from > > nature; > > > > the Native American model sees humans as part of a natural ecosystem. > > > Medin > > > > and Bang then report on the development of ecologically oriented and > > > > community-based science education programs on the Menominee > reservation > > > in > > > > Wisconsin and at the American Indian Center of Chicago. Medin and > > Bang?s > > > > novel argument for scientist diversity also has important > implications > > > for > > > > questions of minority underrepresentation in science. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Molly Shea > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Edward Wall wrote: > > > > > > > >> Carrie > > > >> > > > >> My read of Barton?s publications is that she is using the Maker > > > >> movement as a platform as regards issues of equity and science taken > > > >> broadly. Is this a fair read or are there other important factors I > am > > > >> missing?? > > > >> > > > >> My read of a nice paper published by Jessica Thompson and others > > in > > > >> TCR is that she sees what she terms as 'rigor and responsiveness? as > > the > > > >> key element. In my words - not hers - key is respect for the > > discipline > > > >> (rigor) and key is respect for each other (responsiveness). Is this > a > > > fair > > > >> read or are there other important factors I am missing? > > > >> > > > >> Megan Bang seems less in the the science/math loop although she > > just > > > >> may not have published much in this area. I did see one paper that, > > one > > > >> might say, addressed what some would term ethnomathematics. > > > >> > > > >> However, I see nothing in the work of these researchers in the > > > discipline > > > >> of mathematics per se. Perhaps you could point me in the right > > > direction? > > > >> > > > >> Here is why I?m asking. Just assume that I am a dumb mathematics > > > educator > > > >> (which I am - smile) and I wish to help those I teach (which I do) - > > > i.e. > > > >> those who will be elementary and secondary mathematics teachers - in > > > >> somehow implementing something like rigor and responsiveness.? I do > > > >> understand that curriculum and teaching are intertwined, but I also > > know > > > >> that teachers enact curriculum and may or may not choose make room > for > > > >> responsiveness (that was also a point in the Thompson article). Now > it > > > is > > > >> possible that all my students will, on their own and in their own > > > >> classrooms, develop substantial notions of rigor and responsiveness, > > > but it > > > >> is possible that some might struggle. What experiences might I and > > > others > > > >> design to help those that struggle; for instance, what constitutes > > rigor > > > >> (one can certainly be under or over rigorous). Likewise, what > > > constitutes > > > >> responsiveness (one certainly doesn?t need to talk to be > responsive). > > > Often > > > >> people such as I do have relations with those, say, in mathematics, > > > child > > > >> development, and educational philosophy (among others). But, perhaps > > you > > > >> don?t see this as happening in the college classroom, but during > > > teaching > > > >> itself. This still raises the interesting question as to what should > > > occur > > > >> in the college classroom (although some would just abolish such > > > classrooms, > > > >> perhaps understandably). Maybe it is too soon to ask such a > question, > > > but > > > >> until it is answered in some pragmatic fashion, dumb mathematics > > > educators > > > >> such as myself will continue muddle to the benefit of none and, > > perhaps, > > > >> detriment of all. > > > >> > > > >> Ed Wall > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> On Dec 1, 2016, at 3:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> Hi all, > > > >>> > > > >>> Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in > > regarding > > > >> other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and > science. > > > >> First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying > > to > > > >> suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow > > ideas > > > >> about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There > are > > > >> certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton?s > > > work at > > > >> Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson?s and Megan Bang?s > work > > > at > > > >> the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and > > > >> normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young > > > people in > > > >> the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways. > > Math > > > and > > > >> science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making > > sense > > > of > > > >> the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who > > > utilize > > > >> the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems, > > > >> questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced > > ways > > > of > > > >> being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means > by > > > >> which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I?m not > entirely > > > sure > > > >> how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are > > > >> ?living? ? being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> -- > > > >>> > > > >>> CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D. > > > >>> STEM Researcher > > > >>> SRI International > > > >>> Center for Technology in Learning > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> (650) 859-5262 > > > >>> Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2 > > > >>> Skype: carrie.allen_9 > > > >>> > > > >>> On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf > of > > > >> lpscholar2@gmail.com" > > >> lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a > > > >> particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play. > > > >>> This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes > > > >> approaches. This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of > > our > > > >> inquiry. > > > >>> This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of > > learning. > > > >>> > > > >>> Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be > > > >> foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > >>> > > > >>> From: Edward Wall > > > >>> Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM > > > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > Re-started > > > >>> > > > >>> Larry > > > >>> > > > >>> There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities > (I?m > > > >> not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics > > > >>> > > > >>> 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools) > > > >>> 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a > teacher > > at > > > >> one. If there is any interest I?ll see if I can dig up the title). > > > >>> 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929 > > > >>> 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the > > > >> Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ?neoliberal' (however, the > > > evidence > > > >> isn?t clear) > > > >>> > > > >>> Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is > > put > > > >> off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade; > > > >> however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey > > > >> recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according > to > > > >> some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, > this > > > is a > > > >> bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of > schooling > > > for > > > >> the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off). > > > >>> > > > >>> Ed > > > >>> > > > >>>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates > > > >> (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it > > possible > > > we > > > >> are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or > > > >> historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation > that > > > were > > > >> not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or > > incarnate > > > >> deeply historical and ethical orientations and practices. > > > >>>> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural > > imaginaries) > > > >> that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture > > well-being? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > >>>> > > > >>>> From: Huw Lloyd > > > >>>> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM > > > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > Re-started > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Alfredo, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Yes, they're pathological. I am merely saying that the problems > > > >> inherent > > > >>>> in the pathology can be edifying. No, I don't think the issues > can > > be > > > >>>> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that > can > > > be > > > >>>> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for > > > "good > > > >>>> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real > > > >> problem > > > >>>> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like > > Davydov's > > > >>>> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education". > > > There > > > >>>> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important > > > >>>> implications. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Best, > > > >>>> Huw > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no > > > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> Huw, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional, > > social) > > > >>>>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the > > > >> formation > > > >>>>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all > educational > > > >>>>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather > > should > > > be > > > >>>>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them, > > *pathological* > > > >> (or > > > >>>>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and > > > >>>>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some > > young > > > >>>>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was > > > Mike > > > >> who > > > >>>>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question > is, > > > >> will > > > >>>>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the > > double > > > >> bind > > > >>>>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only > include > > > the > > > >>>>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a > > higher > > > >> order > > > >>>>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to > > > grow > > > >>>>> rather than come to stall). > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Alfredo > > > >>>>> ________________________________________ > > > >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > edu > > > >>> > > > >>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd > > > >>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54 > > > >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > Re-started > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Alfredo, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> The 'zone' is always present. Whether it is recognised or not is > > > >> another > > > >>>>> matter. > > > >>>>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, > > because > > > >> there > > > >>>>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is > > > educational > > > >> -- > > > >>>>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another. So (from an > Illich > > > >>>>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it > > > just > > > >>>>> takes a different course. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Best, > > > >>>>> Huw > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > > > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates > > to > > > >> this > > > >>>>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach > to > > > >>>>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, > > that > > > >>>>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation > between > > > >> two, > > > >>>>> not > > > >>>>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and > > > >>>>> Phillip's > > > >>>>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as > > all > > > >> we > > > >>>>> do. > > > >>>>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have > > > wonderfully > > > >>>>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in > > > maths, > > > >>>>> but > > > >>>>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can > (whatever > > > that > > > >>>>> best > > > >>>>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and > > context > > > >> that > > > >>>>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop > motives > > > and > > > >>>>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it > > so > > > >> that > > > >>>>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, > > > >> according > > > >>>>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a > > > >> hollowed-out > > > >>>>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had > > > >> illusion > > > >>>>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide > opportunities > > to > > > >>>>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, > but > > > >> also a > > > >>>>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had > grown > > in > > > >>>>> people > > > >>>>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do > we > > > >> have a > > > >>>>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? > > Not > > > >> just > > > >>>>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Alfredo > > > >>>>>> ________________________________________ > > > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > >> edu> > > > >>>>>> on behalf of White, Phillip > > > >>>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29 > > > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > Re-started > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't > these > > > >>>>> examples > > > >>>>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at > > where > > > >> she > > > >>>>> is > > > >>>>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a > > > looking > > > >>>>> back > > > >>>>>> at what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then > > > setting > > > >> a > > > >>>>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and > stuff, > > > so > > > >>>>> yeah, > > > >>>>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of > > > present > > > >>>>>> activities to attain future goals. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than > "you". > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused > merely > > on > > > >>>>> their > > > >>>>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is > all > > > >> about > > > >>>>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old > people > > > >> like me > > > >>>>>> do. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data > in > > > >> this > > > >>>>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> phillip > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> ________________________________ > > > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > >> edu> > > > >>>>>> on behalf of David Kellogg > > > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM > > > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > Re-started > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty > > > >> mental > > > >>>>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss > articles > > I > > > >> have > > > >>>>> a > > > >>>>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing > > > rather > > > >>>>> than > > > >>>>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else > is > > > >>>>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense > > of > > > >> some > > > >>>>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on > > tenses, > > > >> and > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in > > and > > > >> out > > > >>>>> of > > > >>>>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at > the > > > way > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we > see > > > >>>>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at > > what > > > >> the > > > >>>>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this > > > >> simply > > > >>>>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take > > simple > > > >>>>> present > > > >>>>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is > it > > > >> because > > > >>>>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and > the > > > >>>>> figured > > > >>>>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is > > youth? > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is > very > > > >> much a > > > >>>>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" > > you > > > >>>>> often > > > >>>>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I". > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself? > > > >>>>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want > to > > > >> find > > > >>>>> out > > > >>>>>> if anybody really cares. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to > readers: > > > >> both > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of > > > >> statistical > > > >>>>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the > > > morning > > > >>>>> after > > > >>>>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of > > > those > > > >>>>> black > > > >>>>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but > > > couldn't > > > >> be > > > >>>>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class > > voters" > > > >> who > > > >>>>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North > > > >> Carolina > > > >>>>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently > > > knowing > > > >> how > > > >>>>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually > presented > > > as > > > >>>>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself > would > > > be > > > >>>>> part > > > >>>>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models > that > > > use > > > >>>>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the > > > >> impossible > > > >>>>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times > > > without > > > >>>>> any > > > >>>>>> memory at all). > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together > > you > > > >>>>> notice > > > >>>>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on > your > > > >>>>> question, > > > >>>>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend > > to > > > >>>>> change > > > >>>>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On > > the > > > >> one > > > >>>>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too > > > >> wholly > > > >>>>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of > > these > > > >>>>> moments > > > >>>>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, > in > > > >>>>> itself. > > > >>>>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and > > > >> objects > > > >>>>> in > > > >>>>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> David Kellogg > > > >>>>>> Macquarie University > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD < > > hshonerd@gmail.com > > > > > > > >>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> David, > > > >>>>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this > > > topic, > > > >>>>> but > > > >>>>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection > > > between > > > >>>>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as > > staged?interactants > > > >>>>> view > > > >>>>>>> themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben > is > > > >>>>> largely > > > >>>>>>> about how differently math is ?staged? by working > mathematicians > > as > > > >>>>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be > > > interesting > > > >>>>> to > > > >>>>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold > > each > > > >>>>> other > > > >>>>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of > > > >> connecting > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media > to > > > >>>>> clarify > > > >>>>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential > > > elections, > > > >>>>> and > > > >>>>>>> what not. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and > > Halliday > > > >> on > > > >>>>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in > > > ?basic > > > >>>>>>> domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he > > has > > > >> said > > > >>>>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As > > > you?d > > > >>>>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating > > what > > > he > > > >>>>>> calls > > > >>>>>>> ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal > > domain > > > >> is > > > >>>>>> more > > > >>>>>>> closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he > > analyzes > > > >>>>> tense > > > >>>>>>> and aspect. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive > grammar > > > has > > > >> a > > > >>>>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is > usage > > > >> based, > > > >>>>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I > > > think > > > >>>>>> there > > > >>>>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though > I?m > > > not > > > >>>>>> smart > > > >>>>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the > connection > > > must > > > >>>>> be > > > >>>>>>> made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? > > > ethnographers > > > >>>>> are > > > >>>>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is > > > raising > > > >>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>> issue. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates > with > > > the > > > >>>>>>> ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say > that > > > >> the > > > >>>>>>> hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may > > say > > > >>>>> that > > > >>>>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in > > school > > > >> was > > > >>>>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I > > got > > > >> to > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>> ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at > Austin > > > >> under > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in > > > Chapter 8 > > > >>>>> of > > > >>>>>>> Vera?s and Reuben?s book. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> I?ll end it there. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> Henry > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg < > > dkellogg60@gmail.com> > > > >>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Henry: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and > > > >>>>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with > the > > > >>>>>>> different > > > >>>>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker > > > somehow > > > >>>>>> sees > > > >>>>>>> it > > > >>>>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space > > > within > > > >>>>>>> space). > > > >>>>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings > and > > > >>>>>>> happenings. > > > >>>>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: > it's > > > >>>>>>> temporally > > > >>>>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine > > that > > > >>>>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either > > > >>>>> proleptically > > > >>>>>> or > > > >>>>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this > > article > > > we > > > >>>>>> are > > > >>>>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or > > three > > > >>>>> weeks > > > >>>>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you > > into > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article > has > > > been > > > >>>>>>> (past) > > > >>>>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems > to > > me > > > >>>>> that > > > >>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. > That > > > is, > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply > > more > > > >> and > > > >>>>>>> less > > > >>>>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for > > example > > > >> in > > > >>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: > > the > > > >>>>> task > > > >>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the > domain, > > > the > > > >>>>>>> scope, > > > >>>>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science > > > identities > > > >>>>> and > > > >>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this > > > >>>>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed > > > out a > > > >>>>>>> little > > > >>>>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill > the > > > damn > > > >>>>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without > doing > > > the > > > >>>>>>> other: > > > >>>>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some > > > task > > > >>>>>> that > > > >>>>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental > > space > > > >>>>> and > > > >>>>>>> not > > > >>>>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the > way > > > you > > > >>>>>> dig > > > >>>>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of > > the > > > >>>>>>> article: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement > > plans", > > > >>>>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP > > > classes) > > > >>>>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or > > > what > > > >>>>>>> Eckhart > > > >>>>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds', 'burnouts', > > > >>>>>> 'gangbangers') > > > >>>>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves > and > > > what > > > >>>>>> they > > > >>>>>>>> think about themselves) > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they > > are > > > >>>>>>> probably > > > >>>>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they > > really > > > do > > > >>>>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). > > > >> Different > > > >>>>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings > of > > > the > > > >>>>>>> school > > > >>>>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of > teachers > > > and > > > >>>>>>> groups > > > >>>>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. > > It's > > > >>>>>> always > > > >>>>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all > > the > > > >>>>> data > > > >>>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against > > > what > > > >>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point > of > > > >>>>>>>> intervention is. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are > figured > > > by > > > >>>>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is > that > > > just > > > >>>>> an > > > >>>>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words > > > (although > > > >>>>>> maybe > > > >>>>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real > grounds > > > for > > > >>>>>>> hope? > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their > > own > > > >>>>>>> *history*, > > > >>>>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not > > make* > > > >> it > > > >>>>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances > > > >> existing > > > >>>>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition > of > > > all > > > >>>>>> dead > > > >>>>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the > > living." > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And > > it's a > > > >>>>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> David Kellogg > > > >>>>>>>> Macquarie University > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD < > > > hshonerd@gmail.com> > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> All, > > > >>>>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, > but I > > > >>>>> wanted > > > >>>>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera > > > John-Steiner > > > >>>>> and > > > >>>>>>> her > > > >>>>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating > > > Mathematics: > > > >>>>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which > refers > > > to > > > >>>>>>>>> ?identities of independence and finding out sustainable > within > > > >> these > > > >>>>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and > > > >>>>> Reuben?s > > > >>>>>>> book > > > >>>>>>>>> contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real > > (working) > > > >>>>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we > > > call > > > >>>>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The > > Teaching > > > >> of > > > >>>>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and > > > could > > > >>>>> be > > > >>>>>>>>> relevant to this discussion. > > > >>>>>>>>> Henry > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd < > > > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Dear Margaret > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I > leave > > > it > > > >>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points. > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous > > > term > > > >>>>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by > arguments > > > >> about > > > >>>>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political. > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the > place > > > of > > > >>>>>>>>> identity. > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity > of > > > >>>>> "model > > > >>>>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM > > > subjects > > > >>>>>> would > > > >>>>>>>>>> relate to. On this, I would point to the importance with > > > >>>>> identifying > > > >>>>>>>>> with > > > >>>>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness > to > > > >> find > > > >>>>>>> out" > > > >>>>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know). > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity > is > > > >>>>>>>>> foregrounded > > > >>>>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as > background > > > >>>>> social > > > >>>>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing > > at > > > >> the > > > >>>>>>> role > > > >>>>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out > > about > > > >>>>>>> unknowns. > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied > > set > > > of > > > >>>>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, > such > > > >> that > > > >>>>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable > > > within > > > >>>>>> these > > > >>>>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal > with > > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions. > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Best, > > > >>>>>>>>>> Huw > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart < > > > >>>>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you > for > > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed > > > Out.? > > > >>>>>> We > > > >>>>>>>>> also > > > >>>>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the > > stream > > > >> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>> thinking here! > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? > ideas > > > >> about > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data. On this topic, we > > would > > > >>>>> like > > > >>>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the > > students > > > >>>>> were > > > >>>>>>>>> making > > > >>>>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted > them > > > >>>>>> through > > > >>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and > > figured > > > >>>>>> worlds > > > >>>>>>>>> are > > > >>>>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us > > > >>>>> reflected > > > >>>>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some > pretty > > > >>>>> serious > > > >>>>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what > > > >>>>> theories > > > >>>>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of > > > >>>>> ?exemplars? > > > >>>>>>> we > > > >>>>>>>>>>> might turn to. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" < > > > >>>>> lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense > (preferably > > > sens > > > >>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within > > meaning > > > >> and > > > >>>>>>>>> sense) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> of this month?s article. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of > > > (hollowed-out) > > > >>>>>>> meaning > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for > > > >>>>>>> developing a > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work > of > > > >>>>> social > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about > > improving > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications > of > > > the > > > >>>>>>> study > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* > to, > > > can > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section > > > >> (identity-in-context) > > > >>>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured > > > worlds). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of > > > history-in-person. > > > >>>>>> That > > > >>>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of > > > >> person > > > >>>>>> one > > > >>>>>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries > > > >> (figured > > > >>>>>>>>> worlds) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local > > > practices > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as > socially > > > and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players > > are > > > >>>>>>>>> recognized > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical > > psychological > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving > > meaning* > > > >> to > > > >>>>>>>>> *what* > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) > we > > > >>>>> take. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper > > > >> ethical > > > >>>>>>> turn > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to > as > > > >> well > > > >>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue > as > > > >>>>>> beacons > > > >>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the > > > >>>>> neoliberal > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts > from > > > >>>>> their > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple > imaginaries > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > > >>>>> Re-started > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo-- > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might > > > send > > > >>>>>> them > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> here: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to > > web > > > >>>>> site > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to > > > >> implement. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> mike > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > > > >>>>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for > > discussion: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math > > and > > > >>>>>> Science > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by > > Margaret > > > >>>>>>> Eisenhart > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so > > during > > > >> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I > > > >> shared > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> link > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the > discussion > > > to > > > >> a > > > >>>>>>> halt > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> until > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent > Margaret > > > and > > > >>>>>>> Carrie > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch > up, > > > but > > > >> I > > > >>>>>>> also > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce > > themselves > > > as > > > >>>>>> soon > > > >>>>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a > > > discussion > > > >>>>> of > > > >>>>>> an > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An > > > >>>>> American > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy" > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a > > dark > > > >> day > > > >>>>>> for > > > >>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer > some > > > >>>>> grounds > > > >>>>>>> for > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's > > home > > > >>>>> now, > > > >>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state > > of > > > >>>>> mind" > > > >>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> that > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a > neoliberal > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> organisation of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to > > > >>>>> Trump's > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of > > > >> everyday > > > >>>>>>> life. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background > on > > > >>>>> women's > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> scholar > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant > to > > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without > > halts, I > > > >>>>> hope > > > >>>>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> edu> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48 > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of > > > those > > > >>>>>>> still > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she > > joins > > > us > > > >>>>>> next > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> week! > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> edu> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32 > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret > would > > > be > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick > glance > > > at > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to > > wade > > > >>>>> into > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have > > > until > > > >>>>>> next > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> week > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> to think about it. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries > > to > > > >>>>> catch > > > >>>>>>> up! > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> mike > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ... > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out > that > > > the > > > >>>>>> data > > > >>>>>>>>> in > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which > was > > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> processes > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to > > the > > > >>>>>>>>> externally > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study > > > using > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> theories > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories. or so i understand your > > > >>>>>> position. > > > >>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> you > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well? it seems as if > > you > > > >>>>> are > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this > > point > > > >> (in > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> case > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh > grade, > > > but > > > >> I > > > >>>>>>> think > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that > it > > > >> could > > > >>>>>> be > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> traced > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the > > > adult > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools? > > that > > > >>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> narrative > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but > > rather > > > >>>>> could > > > >>>>>>> be > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> traced > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in > > > >>>>> particular > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american > > > >>>>> education > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> began? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the > Eisenhart/Allen > > > >>>>> study, > > > >>>>>>> what > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> phillip > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the > > shallow > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of > > meaning > > > >> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sense. I > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes > > > >>>>> *direction* > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> within > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of > > > >> depends > > > >>>>>> on > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> where > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal > (you > > > and > > > >>>>>> me) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> way of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and > > historical > > > >>>>> ways > > > >>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> being > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the > > > >>>>>> *historical-in-person*. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the > > > description > > > >>>>> of > > > >>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing > > > >>>>>> circumstances* > > > >>>>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article says: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other > > > >>>>>> Sociocultural > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* > > that > > > >>>>> is, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> learning > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a > > > >>>>>> particular > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> context. Identities conceived in this way are not > stable > > or > > > >>>>>> fixed. > > > >>>>>>>>> As > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so > too > > > may > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & > > > >> Skinner, > > > >>>>>>>>> 1997). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity > > > processes > > > >>>>>> that > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> start > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are > > > *external* > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the > > > >>>>>> importance > > > >>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or > > > primordially > > > >>>>> to > > > >>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving > a > > > gap > > > >>>>> in > > > >>>>>>> our > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the > > *external* > > > >>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> highly > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in > > > actual*ity. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others... > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few > > days, > > > >>>>>> unsure > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> where > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to > > start" > > > >>>>>>> questions > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be > > > working > > > >>>>>> on. > > > >>>>>>> In > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a > > > moment > > > >>>>>> which > > > >>>>>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the > > Big > > > >>>>>> Bang. > > > >>>>>>>>> But > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to > > start > > > >>>>> (the > > > >>>>>>> Big > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bang > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to > mention > > > the > > > >>>>>>> origins > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> life). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just > > > >>>>>>> thoughtfully > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sent > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper > > > leaves > > > >> a > > > >>>>>>>>> really > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> big > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this > > gap > > > is > > > >>>>>>>>> largely > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, > > > >>>>> 'identity' > > > >>>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others > to > > > be > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sustained." > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> b) "It is notable that this construction of a good > > student, > > > >>>>>> though > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal > > interest, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> excitement, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> or > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." > > > (193) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm > > > >>>>>> confident', > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are > interpreted > > in > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> context > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, > > > their > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> statements > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system > > for > > > >>>>>> being > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> good > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity > > > >>>>> characteristics > > > >>>>>> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> being > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work > > > quickly, > > > >>>>> do > > > >>>>>> it > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> without > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an > A." > > > >>>>> (193) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given > > by > > > >>>>>>> society", > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the > > context > > > >> of > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> figured > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems > > to > > > go > > > >>>>>>>>> against > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as > > Lowena's > > > >>>>>> views > > > >>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> a > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that > > > >> contradicts > > > >>>>>> my > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> data: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that > > the > > > >>>>>> theory > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I > also > > > >>>>> don't > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I > > > think > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>> word > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and > > > >>>>> engagement > > > >>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> much > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter > > > easily, > > > >>>>> do > > > >>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> work > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster > than > > > >>>>> others > > > >>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> get > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) > > is > > > >>>>>>> actually > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "I" > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are > > talking > > > >>>>>> about, > > > >>>>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a > relation > > > >>>>> between > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> their > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand or between the > > > activity > > > >>>>> at > > > >>>>>>>>> hand > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured > > world > > > >> of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a > > > good > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue > > in > > > >>>>> both > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation > become a > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and > > > "you" > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> relationship > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my > identity > > (I > > > >>>>> can > > > >>>>>>> make > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> up > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own > history, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> if > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a > number > > > and > > > >>>>> a > > > >>>>>>>>> class > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> over > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the > > > >>>>>> interpersonal > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> somehow > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me > > > like a > > > >>>>>>>>> strange > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) > > > somewhere > > > >>>>>>> between > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh > grade, > > > but > > > >> I > > > >>>>>>> think > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can > > > >>>>> probably > > > >>>>>>> find > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back > to > > > >>>>>>> (Vygotsky) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" > > language > > > at > > > >>>>>> one > > > >>>>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and > (Halliday) > > > the > > > >>>>>>> moment > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> when > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying > > > >> clauses > > > >>>>>>> ("I'm > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I > > can > > > >>>>> pull > > > >>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> off") > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it"). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for > discussion, > > > >>>>> which > > > >>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> now > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages< > > > >>>>>> http://www.tandfonline > > > >>>>>>> . > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's > colourful > > > >>>>> paper > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis), > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> we > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by > Margaret > > > >>>>>> Eisenhart > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining > > Science > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Education > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as > > the > > > >>>>>> whole > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie > > > together > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of > > identity > > > >> in > > > >>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion > > ?after > > > US > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> elections > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us > > busy). > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link > > >>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039 > > > >>>>>>>>>>> . > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also > > attach > > > it > > > >>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> PDF. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read! > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Dec 5 11:50:05 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 11:50:05 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started In-Reply-To: <5845bd81.1d8a620a.ea283.ba95@mx.google.com> References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> <581892be.a18e420a.e8c1b.91c5@mx.google.com> <1478048037834.30258@iped.uio.no> <1478731123911.34663@iped.uio.no> <58260f6e.8c13620a.15aad.dbbc@mx.google.com> <2BD9CC83-EA02-4830-B8C0-76BC78FAFBFB@colorado.edu> <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com> <1479368272828.93794@iped.uio.no> <1479406265608.19906@iped.uio.no> <582e1ba4.c7cc620a.3c64e.b199@mx.google.com> <582e7283.84cf620a.c9f5a.302f@mx.google.com> <84A1931F-3DD7-4228-9BF3-1E494727736E@sri.com> <1DE83503-218D-4E0B-BD80-C4852B990209@umich.edu> <4941A004-42BE-4BFE-9162-A277710F31ED@umich.edu> <5845bd81.1d8a620a.ea283.ba95@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Sure Larry - its possible to imagine things starting totally bottom up and seeking to retain horizontality. I believe that the Scandanavian playworlds group operates in that manner. A sort of "epidemiology" of practices approach. I assume that at its best, it is this sort of local initiative that the charter schools movement is supposed to be about. "Its best" appears swamped by ideological concerns that are part of the problem, not part of the solution, methinks. mike PS-- I have cut off the long tail trailing this thread. On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:18 AM, wrote: > Mike, > Is it possible to reverse the order of your question and to imagine this > 40 year old teacher who as a member of a particular public school is > presented with an already existing model of organized schooling [along the > lines of the Finnish nursing model]. The school personnel then have the > option to also follow this model where the teachers have no hierarchical > leadership. This would mean the teachers together must take the curriculum > [their object in the same way the nurses take as their object a mandate to > offer community health care] and decide how to teach fractions. No > guarantee that the non-hierarchically organized school would not continue > teaching fractions the same old way, but they as teachers would be able to > decide to teach in an alternative way. For example they could decide to ask > Molly Shea to give inservice to their learning collaborative [and have the > freedom to decide this on their own. This recognizes the state as still > supplying the funding as distributing the curriculum, [fractions] but I can > imagine the question being generated why teaching fractions to our school > community is not working as intended. > The key shift in organizational structure of community health at the > neighbourhood level began in one model instance. No other neighbourhood > health team was compelled to enact this non-hierarchical model, but they > had the option to follow this model. What is significant is that this model > has become the dominant taken for granted way of offering community health > care and each patient now sees only two nurses. > > So... the premise that I am starting from is that the state grants the > possibility for a school to elect to operate in this way. That 40 year old > teacher would have elected to be a member of this alternative structure, > opening the possibility [the not yet but could be] potential of a true > learning collaborative that decides how to implement the curriculum. > At this point a huge leap of imagination, but we do have a living example > in the re-organization of one country?s community health teams > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: mike cole > Sent: December 4, 2016 1:11 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: Noah Finkelstein > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started > > Thanks for forwarding the paper and the additional comments, Molly. > The more concrete examples we have to work with, including their > pre-histories and later fates, the better for understanding how to connect > our theories with concrete instantiations. Working simultaneously at > different "levels" of the sociopoliticalculturaleconomic system in which > our model activities are embedded seems an inescapable methodological > requirement. A tall order. Noah Finkelstein's work appears to be taking on > that tall task. > > Larry -- How would you imagine the Finnish nursing care model would be > reconfigured if the object of activity were learning to divide fractions > and the participants were a bunch of 9-10 year olds and a forty year old > teacher in a classroom where the seats are bolted down and keeping order is > THE over-riding requirement? > > > > > > > > mike > > On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 12:26 PM, molly shea wrote: > > > Hi Mike, > > Thanks for the email. I think the Margaret and Carrie's paper did a great > > job of defining and describing the fall out of neoliberal schooling > > conditions. The study found "so-called ?high-achieving? students > > learning-to-the-tests (i.e., to make high grades) and struggling to > > maintain ?good student? identities based in compliant behavior and > mundane > > activities." The mundane activities is the part that seems so pernicious. > > You can almost image being in the interviews with some of the brightest > > women and men asking "why are we here? what is the point?". The wonder of > > math and science become narrowly focused on future oriented achievement > and > > future oriented identities that suggest someday this stuff won't be so > > mundane. > > > > However I think some alternative sites of learning math and science > sustain > > themselves on 1) a better understanding of the history and the people > that > > constructed and construct the discipline; 2) a better sense of wonderment > > (Heidegger) about the possibilities to be surprised, confused, and > curious > > about how and why the world has become the multiple things that it is or > > seems to be; and 3) institutional support that can see a shared value > with > > these alternative paths. Your Fifth Dimension is an example of taking up > a > > kind of ambiguity and curiosity and unsettled ideas (Medin and Bang > discuss > > this in detail on their own terms). Carrie and Margaret's paper does a > nice > > job of describing the absence of that wonderment or curiosity. Something > > they suggest the institutionalized neoliberal education for working class > > kids has all but left behind for a march towards progress through test > > scores and the improvements of economic security for those who possess > > merit in the schooling system. Private schools seem to be a refuge for > the > > wealthy. Susan Jurow and I discuss how those who want to institutionalize > > alternatives must consider the reorganizing of scales to consider how > other > > forms of becoming can emerge--forms that work towards equity. I am not > sure > > there are many answers in this quick email, but it is something I am very > > interested in understanding and would love to hear other's thoughts. > > > > Thanks, > > Molly > > > > > > > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Dec 5 13:18:51 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 13:18:51 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?b?RndkOiBb0JrRg9C70YzRgtGD0YDQvdC+LdC40YHRgtC+0YDQuNGH?= =?utf-8?b?0LXRgdC60LDRjyDQv9GB0LjRhdC+0LvQvtCz0LjRjyAvIEN1bHR1cmFs?= =?utf-8?q?-historical_psychology=5D_Timeline_Photos?= In-Reply-To: <1151962648174591-564569043580624@groups.facebook.com> References: <1151962648174591-564569043580624@groups.facebook.com> <1151962648174591-564569043580624@groups.facebook.com> Message-ID: Our Modern world ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Boris Meshcheryakov Date: Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 12:19 PM Boris Meshcheryakov posted in ?????????-???????????? ?????????? / Cultural-historical psychology . Boris Meshcheryakov December 5 at 12:19pm Like Comment Share Facebook Boris Meshcheryakov posted in ?????????-???????????? ?????????? / Cultural-historical psychology . Boris Meshcheryakov December 5 at 12:19pm Like Comment Share View on Facebook Edit Email Settings Reply to this email to comment on this post. This message was sent to lchcmike@gmail.com. If you don't want to receive these emails from Facebook in the future, please unsubscribe . Facebook, Inc., Attention: Community Support, 1 Hacker Way, Menlo Park, CA 94025 From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Dec 6 04:39:37 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 12:39:37 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com> <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no> <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no> <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com> <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no> <1480807479742.14918@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Well, here is a speculative question which may interest Galina: to what degree is "voice" (situated identity and active orientation towards particular role-meanings) considered in the platform (the group sustaining their inquiry) established? >From one perspective it does not matter too much whether it is considered, so long as the students attend and respond to the imagery they experience. Does one even try to distinguish "active persona" on a scientific/repeatable basis? On the other hand it may lend further leverage into discerning the conflicts and associations between "voice". E.g. whether the direct (rather than group-mediated) voice of the teacher does not directly block the students creative and reflexive consideration, but rather that it powerfully evokes a particular formalised voice on the part of the student. The consideration was that this might be an appropriate way to link dialogical (i.e. Bakhtin) considerations to the cognitive aspects of AT and (perhaps) the implicit thought modes accompanying them. As I see it, this still supports the adult-child participations, particularly with respect to directives, e.g. the short verb phrases commonly acquired by infants/toddlers. At home we have a delightful phrase that moved from a caution to mocking (which I think may have been started by our youngest) which is "Tell-you-off!" it is full off mock reprimand and gruffly spoken when someone isn't following the script (toddlers love scripts). Another thought I had regarding platforms was that when I was at primary/middle school computers were practically shunned by adults, which was brilliant. Not only could one devote lots of uninterrupted time to building things that worked out of one's imagination, the adults would nod approvingly and say to themselves that the child was learning "computer skills". Micro-computers at that juncture not only provided an operating system platform (usually manifesting as a little blinking cursor, inviting you to write a program) they established a social space/platform too. But not only that, the computer housed the reflections of one's ideas which, just like one's attention, could be brought to life in an instant. Best, Huw On 5 December 2016 at 17:02, mike cole wrote: > Dear Colleagues -- Here is my quick translation of Galina's response to my > invitation to join the discussion of her paper. (Note that she refers to > reflexive thinking which is the topic of a second paper I am not sure > everyone has obtained). > > I would emphasize her point that this work was written in the 1980's, > published in 2000, and available to us only now in English. These temporal > facts and their implications in terms of judgments about the political > context of the work ought to be kept in mind when interpreting aspects of > the text. Speaking personally, Phillip's comments about the common values > across different systems of state sponsored mass education provide a > reasonable interpretive framework. > > Here are Galina's comments: > > Michael - > > I send you a book file, part of which has been translated and is now being > discussed. I am of two minds about participating in the discussion. Do I > want to participate in the discussion? Yes and no. Yes, because I have > never tired of learning. No, because I am tired of the socio-political > myths that gradually sinks discussion. > > > > With regard to the politics. El'konin and Davydov were and remain > dissidents both in relation to their own times, and in the new millennium; > and in their personal behavior and professional accomplishments are > important for me, because I love these people and their ideas. > > > > The book *How do younger school children learn to learn?* (from which the > article was selected). It was published in 2000 and written in the late > 80s. Is it outdated? Yes and no. Obsolete are the specific examples of > learning situations I used to illustrate various pedagogical ideas. But the > specific instructional situations described, as a rule, were recorded on > the day of testing: the result of the main lessons from a good teacher - an > understanding of how today's ideas could be implemented better, fuller, and > more clearly remain useful. What has not aged are ideas about interpsychic > action, illustrated by these learning situations. At present I will mention > only two: > > > > 1) Education always introduces asymmetries into development, supporting > some potential opportunities and age not supporting others. The dream of > all-round harmonious development is unattainable due to the specific > relationship of instruction and development. > > > > 2) For the *reflexive development* of the child, interaction with adults > who are familiar and knowledgeable about the subject matter needs to be > supplemented by interaction with peers who do not know the answers and are > not more knowledgeable. This [dual necessity] is on the one hand, well > known and repeatedly demonstrated, but on the other hand, it is constantly > ignored. For me, this is important because it makes re-think one of the > most quoted sayings of Vygotsky: "Zone of Proximal Development - is the > distance between the level of a child's actual development as determined by > the tasks presented that are accomplished independently, and the level of > potential development, determined by means of a procedure in which problems > are solved under the leadership of adults or in collaboration with more > knowledgeable peers." > > > > ?Is this another way of formulating Ed Wall's idea of rigor and > responsiveness in pedagogical terms? Sort of like modes and relations of > production one might say. > > mike? > > ? > 21-kak-mlsch-uchatsa_2000.pdf > view?usp=drive_web> > ? > > > > >>> > >>> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Dec 6 08:06:26 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 08:06:26 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what wouldaneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com> <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no> <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no> <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com> <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no> <1480807479742.14918@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <5846e21c.c315620a.54d80.2b95@mx.google.com> Huw, You mention how toddlers love scripts. They also seem to love (pairings) which are an example of (overlaying). EXAMPLE: The relationship of shoes to one another as an illustration of pairing. The toddler, finding a left shoe is upset because she cannot find her shoes. The toddler does not see *a* shoe, she sees *the* left shoe. Whether this is pre-linguistic i will put aside to focus on the overlaying as pairing phenomena. The Zuckerman article explores the theme of layers (stages) that leave traces that may be *dormant* but able to reawaken through attachment (level 1) imitation/repetition (level 2) play (level 3 including playworlds) and learning to learn ability (level 4). The Zuckerman article is exploring the (overlaying) expression of these *traces* that may be *dormant* but nevertheless continue to function and continue to *institute* new forms of meaning. The question of (voices) in the Zuckerman article focuses on honouring the young child?s voice which calls to the adult and orients or moves the adult as a (pairing/overlaying). The child?s voice is taking the lead, and the adult (voice) overlays with the child?s ? in response. This child?s voice may be expressing attachment, imitation, play or learning ability. Merleau-Ponty may have something to add to this exploration of overlayering of developmental stages if we substitute the word (psychology) where M-P uses the word (philosophy): Philosophy/psychology is not a rupture with the world, not a coinciding (coincidence) with it, but it is not the alteration of rupture and coincidence either .... Philosophy/psychology does not decompose our relationship with the world into real elements, or even into ideal references, which would make it an ideal object, but it (discerns) articulations in the world, it awakens in it regular relations of ? PREPOSSESSION, OF RECAPITULATION, OF OVERLAPPING (d?enjambement), which are as (dormant) in our ontological landscape, subsist there only in the form of (traces) and nevertheless continue to function there, continue to (institute) the new there. To abbreviate: The concept of layers in the Zukerman article (in four layers discerned as stages) and the notion of overlayering may be intimately related. The example of the toddler who when locating the left shoe does not notice *a* shoe but awakens the search for my shoe(s). I hope that overlapping is clear in exploring the intermental and the ability of the young school child to engage the adult as an *ability to learn* emerging from the ability to attach, ability to imitate, and ability to play, that may be dormant, but leave traces that continue to function to *institute* the new. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Huw Lloyd Sent: December 6, 2016 4:41 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what wouldaneducationbe?" Well, here is a speculative question which may interest Galina: to what degree is "voice" (situated identity and active orientation towards particular role-meanings) considered in the platform (the group sustaining their inquiry) established? >From one perspective it does not matter too much whether it is considered, so long as the students attend and respond to the imagery they experience. Does one even try to distinguish "active persona" on a scientific/repeatable basis? On the other hand it may lend further leverage into discerning the conflicts and associations between "voice". E.g. whether the direct (rather than group-mediated) voice of the teacher does not directly block the students creative and reflexive consideration, but rather that it powerfully evokes a particular formalised voice on the part of the student. The consideration was that this might be an appropriate way to link dialogical (i.e. Bakhtin) considerations to the cognitive aspects of AT and (perhaps) the implicit thought modes accompanying them. As I see it, this still supports the adult-child participations, particularly with respect to directives, e.g. the short verb phrases commonly acquired by infants/toddlers. At home we have a delightful phrase that moved from a caution to mocking (which I think may have been started by our youngest) which is "Tell-you-off!" it is full off mock reprimand and gruffly spoken when someone isn't following the script (toddlers love scripts). Another thought I had regarding platforms was that when I was at primary/middle school computers were practically shunned by adults, which was brilliant. Not only could one devote lots of uninterrupted time to building things that worked out of one's imagination, the adults would nod approvingly and say to themselves that the child was learning "computer skills". Micro-computers at that juncture not only provided an operating system platform (usually manifesting as a little blinking cursor, inviting you to write a program) they established a social space/platform too. But not only that, the computer housed the reflections of one's ideas which, just like one's attention, could be brought to life in an instant. Best, Huw On 5 December 2016 at 17:02, mike cole wrote: > Dear Colleagues -- Here is my quick translation of Galina's response to my > invitation to join the discussion of her paper. (Note that she refers to > reflexive thinking which is the topic of a second paper I am not sure > everyone has obtained). > > I would emphasize her point that this work was written in the 1980's, > published in 2000, and available to us only now in English. These temporal > facts and their implications in terms of judgments about the political > context of the work ought to be kept in mind when interpreting aspects of > the text. Speaking personally, Phillip's comments about the common values > across different systems of state sponsored mass education provide a > reasonable interpretive framework. > > Here are Galina's comments: > > Michael - > > I send you a book file, part of which has been translated and is now being > discussed. I am of two minds about participating in the discussion. Do I > want to participate in the discussion? Yes and no. Yes, because I have > never tired of learning. No, because I am tired of the socio-political > myths that gradually sinks discussion. > > > > With regard to the politics. El'konin and Davydov were and remain > dissidents both in relation to their own times, and in the new millennium; > and in their personal behavior and professional accomplishments are > important for me, because I love these people and their ideas. > > > > The book *How do younger school children learn to learn?* (from which the > article was selected). It was published in 2000 and written in the late > 80s. Is it outdated? Yes and no. Obsolete are the specific examples of > learning situations I used to illustrate various pedagogical ideas. But the > specific instructional situations described, as a rule, were recorded on > the day of testing: the result of the main lessons from a good teacher - an > understanding of how today's ideas could be implemented better, fuller, and > more clearly remain useful. What has not aged are ideas about interpsychic > action, illustrated by these learning situations. At present I will mention > only two: > > > > 1) Education always introduces asymmetries into development, supporting > some potential opportunities and age not supporting others. The dream of > all-round harmonious development is unattainable due to the specific > relationship of instruction and development. > > > > 2) For the *reflexive development* of the child, interaction with adults > who are familiar and knowledgeable about the subject matter needs to be > supplemented by interaction with peers who do not know the answers and are > not more knowledgeable. This [dual necessity] is on the one hand, well > known and repeatedly demonstrated, but on the other hand, it is constantly > ignored. For me, this is important because it makes re-think one of the > most quoted sayings of Vygotsky: "Zone of Proximal Development - is the > distance between the level of a child's actual development as determined by > the tasks presented that are accomplished independently, and the level of > potential development, determined by means of a procedure in which problems > are solved under the leadership of adults or in collaboration with more > knowledgeable peers." > > > > ?Is this another way of formulating Ed Wall's idea of rigor and > responsiveness in pedagogical terms? Sort of like modes and relations of > production one might say. > > mike? > > ? > 21-kak-mlsch-uchatsa_2000.pdf > view?usp=drive_web> > ? > > > > >>> > >>> > From smago@uga.edu Tue Dec 6 11:26:46 2016 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 19:26:46 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Social Therapeutics Online course Message-ID: Lois Holzman has put together this online course. Please share widely! P -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SocialTherapeuticsAPerformatoryPracticalCriticalApproach.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 150140 bytes Desc: SocialTherapeuticsAPerformatoryPracticalCriticalApproach.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161206/051a0695/attachment.pdf From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Dec 6 17:06:23 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 01:06:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what wouldaneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: <5846e21c.c315620a.54d80.2b95@mx.google.com> References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com> <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no> <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no> <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com> <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no> <1480807479742.14918@iped.uio.no> <5846e21c.c315620a.54d80.2b95@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Larry, Regarding the distinction of four layers, I understand these to be indices of differentiation concomitant with psychological development (i.e. Vygotsky's genesis of functional systems) or as Galina wrote: "rather than replacing the previous developmental stage, the new one merges with it". This does not mean that they cannot ever be treated in separation, however, as this structuring is conceived of as being somewhat dynamic, hence we have different conscious states through a day's cycle. Elkonin's stages paper may be of help. With respect to basic maternal relations, for example, I personally relate this to active orientation, which is compatible with the object of activity in activity theory, but as the child grows up one expects to see much more cognitive structure permeating that orientation, with greater scope for re-orienting. https://www.marxists.org/archive/elkonin/works/1971/stages.htm https://www.academia.edu/24660557/Active_Orientation Best, Huw On 6 December 2016 at 16:06, wrote: > Huw, > > You mention how toddlers love scripts. They also seem to love (pairings) > which are an example of (overlaying). > > EXAMPLE: The relationship of shoes to one another as an illustration of > pairing. The toddler, finding a left shoe is upset because she cannot find > her shoes. The toddler does not see **a** shoe, she sees **the** left > shoe. Whether this is pre-linguistic i will put aside to focus on the > overlaying as pairing phenomena. > > > > The Zuckerman article explores the theme of layers (stages) that leave > traces that may be **dormant** but able to reawaken through attachment > (level 1) imitation/repetition (level 2) play (level 3 including > playworlds) and learning to learn ability (level 4). > > > > The Zuckerman article is exploring the (overlaying) expression of these * > *traces** that may be **dormant** but nevertheless continue to function > and continue to **institute** new forms of meaning. > > > > The question of (voices) in the Zuckerman article focuses on honouring the > young child?s voice which calls to the adult and orients or moves the adult > as a (pairing/overlaying). The child?s voice is taking the lead, and the > adult (voice) overlays with the child?s ? in response. > > This child?s voice may be expressing attachment, imitation, play or > learning ability. > > Merleau-Ponty may have something to add to this exploration of > overlayering of developmental stages if we substitute the word (psychology) > where M-P uses the word (philosophy): > > > > Philosophy/psychology is not a rupture with the world, not a coinciding > (coincidence) with it, but it is not the alteration of rupture and > coincidence either .... Philosophy/psychology does not decompose our > relationship with the world into real elements, or even into ideal > references, which would make it an ideal object, but it (discerns) > articulations in the world, it awakens in it regular relations of ? > PREPOSSESSION, OF RECAPITULATION, OF OVERLAPPING (d?enjambement), which are > as (dormant) in our ontological landscape, subsist there only in the form > of (traces) and nevertheless continue to function there, continue to > (institute) the new there. > > > > To abbreviate: The concept of layers in the Zukerman article (in four > layers discerned as stages) and the notion of overlayering may be > intimately related. > > The example of the toddler who when locating the left shoe does not notice > **a** shoe but awakens the search for my shoe(s). > > > > I hope that overlapping is clear in exploring the intermental and the > ability of the young school child to engage the adult as an **ability to > learn** emerging from the ability to attach, ability to imitate, and > ability to play, that may be dormant, but leave traces that continue to > function to **institute** the new. > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > *From: *Huw Lloyd > *Sent: *December 6, 2016 4:41 AM > *To: *eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what > wouldaneducationbe?" > > > > Well, here is a speculative question which may interest Galina: to what > > degree is "voice" (situated identity and active orientation towards > > particular role-meanings) considered in the platform (the group sustaining > > their inquiry) established? > > > > >From one perspective it does not matter too much whether it is considered, > > so long as the students attend and respond to the imagery they experience. > > Does one even try to distinguish "active persona" on a > > scientific/repeatable basis? > > > > On the other hand it may lend further leverage into discerning the > > conflicts and associations between "voice". E.g. whether the direct > > (rather than group-mediated) voice of the teacher does not directly block > > the students creative and reflexive consideration, but rather that it > > powerfully evokes a particular formalised voice on the part of the student. > > The consideration was that this might be an appropriate way to link > > dialogical (i.e. Bakhtin) considerations to the cognitive aspects of AT and > > (perhaps) the implicit thought modes accompanying them. > > > > As I see it, this still supports the adult-child participations, > > particularly with respect to directives, e.g. the short verb phrases > > commonly acquired by infants/toddlers. At home we have a delightful phrase > > that moved from a caution to mocking (which I think may have been started > > by our youngest) which is "Tell-you-off!" it is full off mock reprimand and > > gruffly spoken when someone isn't following the script (toddlers love > > scripts). > > > > Another thought I had regarding platforms was that when I was at > > primary/middle school computers were practically shunned by adults, which > > was brilliant. Not only could one devote lots of uninterrupted time to > > building things that worked out of one's imagination, the adults would nod > > approvingly and say to themselves that the child was learning "computer > > skills". Micro-computers at that juncture not only provided an operating > > system platform (usually manifesting as a little blinking cursor, inviting > > you to write a program) they established a social space/platform too. But > > not only that, the computer housed the reflections of one's ideas which, > > just like one's attention, could be brought to life in an instant. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > On 5 December 2016 at 17:02, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Dear Colleagues -- Here is my quick translation of Galina's response to > my > > > invitation to join the discussion of her paper. (Note that she refers to > > > reflexive thinking which is the topic of a second paper I am not sure > > > everyone has obtained). > > > > > > I would emphasize her point that this work was written in the 1980's, > > > published in 2000, and available to us only now in English. These > temporal > > > facts and their implications in terms of judgments about the political > > > context of the work ought to be kept in mind when interpreting aspects of > > > the text. Speaking personally, Phillip's comments about the common values > > > across different systems of state sponsored mass education provide a > > > reasonable interpretive framework. > > > > > > Here are Galina's comments: > > > > > > Michael - > > > > > > I send you a book file, part of which has been translated and is now > being > > > discussed. I am of two minds about participating in the discussion. Do I > > > want to participate in the discussion? Yes and no. Yes, because I have > > > never tired of learning. No, because I am tired of the socio-political > > > myths that gradually sinks discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > With regard to the politics. El'konin and Davydov were and remain > > > dissidents both in relation to their own times, and in the new > millennium; > > > and in their personal behavior and professional accomplishments are > > > important for me, because I love these people and their ideas. > > > > > > > > > > > > The book *How do younger school children learn to learn?* (from which the > > > article was selected). It was published in 2000 and written in the late > > > 80s. Is it outdated? Yes and no. Obsolete are the specific examples of > > > learning situations I used to illustrate various pedagogical ideas. But > the > > > specific instructional situations described, as a rule, were recorded on > > > the day of testing: the result of the main lessons from a good teacher - > an > > > understanding of how today's ideas could be implemented better, fuller, > and > > > more clearly remain useful. What has not aged are ideas about > interpsychic > > > action, illustrated by these learning situations. At present I will > mention > > > only two: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Education always introduces asymmetries into development, supporting > > > some potential opportunities and age not supporting others. The dream of > > > all-round harmonious development is unattainable due to the specific > > > relationship of instruction and development. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) For the *reflexive development* of the child, interaction with adults > > > who are familiar and knowledgeable about the subject matter needs to be > > > supplemented by interaction with peers who do not know the answers and > are > > > not more knowledgeable. This [dual necessity] is on the one hand, well > > > known and repeatedly demonstrated, but on the other hand, it is > constantly > > > ignored. For me, this is important because it makes re-think one of the > > > most quoted sayings of Vygotsky: "Zone of Proximal Development - is the > > > distance between the level of a child's actual development as determined > by > > > the tasks presented that are accomplished independently, and the level of > > > potential development, determined by means of a procedure in which > problems > > > are solved under the leadership of adults or in collaboration with more > > > knowledgeable peers." > > > > > > > > > > > > ?Is this another way of formulating Ed Wall's idea of rigor and > > > responsiveness in pedagogical terms? Sort of like modes and relations of > > > production one might say. > > > > > > mike? > > > > > > ? > > > 21-kak-mlsch-uchatsa_2000.pdf > > > > > view?usp=drive_web> > > > ? > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > > > > From feine@duq.edu Wed Dec 7 14:45:09 2016 From: feine@duq.edu (Elizabeth Fein) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 17:45:09 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Call for Papers: Society for Qualitative Inquiry in Psychology 2017 Conference Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Attached please find the Call for Papers for the 2017 Conference of the Society for Qualitative Inquiry in Psychology (SQIP), to be held May 24th and 25th at Fordham University's Lincoln Center campus in New York City. We are looking forward to a very exciting event. At this time we are inviting proposals for: - Symposia consisting of 3 - 5 papers on a particular topic - Individual papers which we will group into symposia - Posters for our poster session(s) For those who are interested in putting together an organized symposium, you can post ideas on the Conference Discussion Forum on the SQIP blog: http://qualpsy.org/events/2017-conference/2017-interest-forum/ We hope to see you in May! Best, Elizabeth -- Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Psychology Duquesne University -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SQIP 2017 Call for Papers Final.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1011986 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161207/7531b7aa/attachment-0001.pdf From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Wed Dec 7 14:53:58 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 22:53:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Social Therapeutics Online course In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1481151237970.26819@iped.uio.no> Shared! Thanks, Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky Sent: 06 December 2016 20:26 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) Subject: [Xmca-l] Social Therapeutics Online course Lois Holzman has put together this online course. Please share widely! P From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Dec 8 10:01:59 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 10:01:59 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Jaakko Virkkunen uploaded a paper In-Reply-To: <01000158df9744ec-b8d13d5c-bb07-4fdb-afa6-a6f82c2cac13-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <01000158df9744ec-b8d13d5c-bb07-4fdb-afa6-a6f82c2cac13-000000@email.amazonses.com> Message-ID: Jaakko has posted a paper that should be interesting to MCA readers. Link below. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Academia.edu Date: Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 9:59 AM Subject: Jaakko Virkkunen uploaded a paper To: lchcmike@gmail.com [image: Academia.edu] *Jaakko Virkkunen just uploaded a paper:* [image: Jaakko Virkkunen] *Jaakko Virkkunen* University of Helsinki , Faculty of behavioral sciences , Emeritus Finding a concept that integrates specialists' know-how - the case of a special school for handicapped and neurologically ill children VIEW PAPER P.S. A study recently published in *PLOS ONE* found that papers uploaded to Academia.edu receive a 69% boost in citations over 5 years. See the study and data here . Academia, 251 Kearny St., Suite 520, San Francisco, CA, 94108 Unsubscribe Privacy Policy Terms of Service ? 2016 Academia From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Thu Dec 8 12:05:37 2016 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2016 15:05:37 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: VERY URGENT - A STATE BY STATE HISTORY OF RACE AND RACISM IN THE UNITED STATES - CALL FOR CONTRIBUTORS Message-ID: Fyi... Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: "Race, Gender & Class Journal" Date: 12/8/16 2:21 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Subject: VERY URGENT - A STATE BY STATE HISTORY OF RACE AND RACISM IN THE UNITED STATES - CALL FOR CONTRIBUTORS ?FOR YOUR INFORMATION Jean Ait Belkhir, Ph.D., Professor of Sociology Founder-Editor, Race, Gender, & Class journal Southern University at New Orleans Arts & Sces Dpt. - NC Room 417 6801 Press Drive New Orleans, LA 70126-1049? O: 504?286-5231 E: jbelkhir.rgc@gmail.com Christiane Charlemaine, Ph.D. RGC Managing Editor E: ccharlemaine@earhlink.net From: patreidmer@aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:03 PM To: Jean Belkhir; Race, Gender & Class Journal; ccharlemaine@earhlink.net Subject: A State by State History of Race and Racism in the United States - Call for Contributors ? Subject: A State by State History of Race and Racism in the United States - Call for Contributors Folks, Please circulate freely. ?I am especially interested in identifying?scholars who can write on the South and Midwest. ?Thanks. pat __________________________________________________ Dr. Patricia Reid-Merritt Distinguished Professor?of Social Work and Africana Studies Stockton University 101 Vera King Farris Drive Galloway, NJ 08205 P: 609.652.4609 pat.reid-merritt?@stockton.edu ? ? ? ? Call for Contributors - Please Circulate Freely! ? A State by State History of Race and Racism in the United States (A two-volume set, Greenwood Imprints) ? Patricia Reid-Merritt, Editor Distinguished Professor, Stockton University ? (Editor - Race in America: How a Pseudoscientific Concept Shaped Human Interaction, Praeger, 2017) ? ? ?????????In the 21st century, it is easy for some students and readers to believe that racism is a thing of the past; in reality, old wounds have yet to heal, and new forms of racism are taking shape. Racism has played a role in American society since the founding of the nation, in spite of the words "all men are created equal" within the Declaration of Independence.? A state by state?analysis?adopts the "in your own backyard" approach and brings issues surrounding race and racism closer to home.??? ? To be published under Greewnwood Imprints,?A?State by State History of Race and Racism in the United States?is intended for advanced high school, college students, and general interest readers who wish to explore racial and ethnic minority issues by state. ?Each chapter (7k-9k words) explores the history of race relations in each of the 50 states and will include a chronology, historical overview, topical essays, and a bibliography. ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? We are seeking contributing authors who can provide a clear, concise and? carefully researched historical narrative.?? Must be able to write for a broad audience and meet the publication submission deadline (spring, 2017).???? If you are interested in being a part of this bold and exciting project, please send an email identifying your state interest, along with a brief bio/resume to the editor (Pat.Reid-Merritt@stockton.edu).? We welcome your contribution and participation in the on-going conversations on race and racism in America.????Thank you for your interest.??Feel free to share this call with interested colleagues! ? NOTICE: This message, including all attachments transmitted with it, is intended solely for the use of the Addressee(s) and may contain information that is PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL, and/or EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this communication in error, please destroy all copies of the message, whether in electronic or hard copy format, as well as attachments and immediately contact the sender by replying to this email or contact the sender at the telephone numbers listed above. Thank you! From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Dec 9 08:12:36 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 08:12:36 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Postdoctoral Researcher in Developmental Psychology Position at Loyola University Chicago In-Reply-To: <04e6f959cf4b47929adbff80451d8358@mbxls1.adms.luc.edu> References: <04e6f959cf4b47929adbff80451d8358@mbxls1.adms.luc.edu> Message-ID: Perhaps appropriate for someone you know. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Haden, Catherine Date: Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 7:55 AM Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Postdoctoral Researcher in Developmental Psychology Position at Loyola University Chicago To: "cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org" Dear members, I?m writing to advertise the following postdoctoral position: *Postdoctoral Researcher in Developmental Psychology* Loyola University Chicago (LUC), College of Arts and Sciences, Department of Psychology, invites applications for a full-time postdoctoral researcher who will work with Dr. Catherine Haden and her colleagues at Northwestern University, Chicago Children's Museum, and Evanston Public Library on a federally-funded project examining how engineering experts engage young children and families in STEM activities in libraries and museums ( https://www.imls.gov/grants/awarded/mg-77-16-0118-16). The postdoctoral researcher will engage in work that connects with psychology, education, and learning sciences that has scientific and practical impacts. With high levels of support and guidance from Dr. Haden and her team, the postdoctoral fellow will gain skills, knowledge, and experience that constitute excellent preparation for a scientific career path. More information about the position and application instructions can be found at www.careers.luc.edu/applicants/Central?quickFind=59369 Review of applications ongoing and will continue until the position is filled. Thank you, Catherine A. Haden, Ph.D. Professor Department of Psychology Loyola University Chicago 1032 West Sheridan Road Chicago, IL 60660 Direct Phone (773) 508-8226 View our research team website: http://www.luc.edu/childrensmemory _______________________________________________ To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) To subscribe or unsubscribe from the listserv, visit: http://lists.cogdevsoc.org/listinfo.cgi/cogdevsoc-cogdevsoc.org From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Dec 9 08:25:03 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 16:25:03 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what would aneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com> <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no> <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no> <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com> <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no> <1480807479742.14918@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Phillip sent me a few papers pertaining to social identities, which can be related to the question. But I should like to say that this is not what I had in mind. The point of interest, really, is what is the block in creative engagement when the students do not engage in this specifically structured group work, i.e. when they are responding directly to the teacher. In the teacher-oriented work we have, I am presuming, goals to respond to the teachers requests in particular ways. In the group-mediated work we have, I am also presuming, goals concerning work upon interpretation of the task, checking with each other, criticism, agreement etc. It is the tone of these various modes of orientation and engagement I am referring to and the subtleties with which they may be switched between, merged, or redeployed from one context to another. For example, could this be a product of the teacher's authority for orchestrating the structured setting, such that the obligation to conform to the settings overlooked by the teacher prevent the students from direct interpretation and criticism? Best, Huw On 6 December 2016 at 12:39, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Well, here is a speculative question which may interest Galina: to what > degree is "voice" (situated identity and active orientation towards > particular role-meanings) considered in the platform (the group sustaining > their inquiry) established? > > From one perspective it does not matter too much whether it is considered, > so long as the students attend and respond to the imagery they experience. > Does one even try to distinguish "active persona" on a > scientific/repeatable basis? > > On the other hand it may lend further leverage into discerning the > conflicts and associations between "voice". E.g. whether the direct > (rather than group-mediated) voice of the teacher does not directly block > the students creative and reflexive consideration, but rather that it > powerfully evokes a particular formalised voice on the part of the student. > The consideration was that this might be an appropriate way to link > dialogical (i.e. Bakhtin) considerations to the cognitive aspects of AT and > (perhaps) the implicit thought modes accompanying them. > > As I see it, this still supports the adult-child participations, > particularly with respect to directives, e.g. the short verb phrases > commonly acquired by infants/toddlers. At home we have a delightful phrase > that moved from a caution to mocking (which I think may have been started > by our youngest) which is "Tell-you-off!" it is full off mock reprimand and > gruffly spoken when someone isn't following the script (toddlers love > scripts). > > Another thought I had regarding platforms was that when I was at > primary/middle school computers were practically shunned by adults, which > was brilliant. Not only could one devote lots of uninterrupted time to > building things that worked out of one's imagination, the adults would nod > approvingly and say to themselves that the child was learning "computer > skills". Micro-computers at that juncture not only provided an operating > system platform (usually manifesting as a little blinking cursor, inviting > you to write a program) they established a social space/platform too. But > not only that, the computer housed the reflections of one's ideas which, > just like one's attention, could be brought to life in an instant. > > Best, > Huw > > On 5 December 2016 at 17:02, mike cole wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues -- Here is my quick translation of Galina's response to my >> invitation to join the discussion of her paper. (Note that she refers to >> reflexive thinking which is the topic of a second paper I am not sure >> everyone has obtained). >> >> I would emphasize her point that this work was written in the 1980's, >> published in 2000, and available to us only now in English. These temporal >> facts and their implications in terms of judgments about the political >> context of the work ought to be kept in mind when interpreting aspects of >> the text. Speaking personally, Phillip's comments about the common values >> across different systems of state sponsored mass education provide a >> reasonable interpretive framework. >> >> Here are Galina's comments: >> >> Michael - >> >> I send you a book file, part of which has been translated and is now being >> discussed. I am of two minds about participating in the discussion. Do I >> want to participate in the discussion? Yes and no. Yes, because I have >> never tired of learning. No, because I am tired of the socio-political >> myths that gradually sinks discussion. >> >> >> >> With regard to the politics. El'konin and Davydov were and remain >> dissidents both in relation to their own times, and in the new millennium; >> and in their personal behavior and professional accomplishments are >> important for me, because I love these people and their ideas. >> >> >> >> The book *How do younger school children learn to learn?* (from which the >> article was selected). It was published in 2000 and written in the late >> 80s. Is it outdated? Yes and no. Obsolete are the specific examples of >> learning situations I used to illustrate various pedagogical ideas. But >> the >> specific instructional situations described, as a rule, were recorded on >> the day of testing: the result of the main lessons from a good teacher - >> an >> understanding of how today's ideas could be implemented better, fuller, >> and >> more clearly remain useful. What has not aged are ideas about interpsychic >> action, illustrated by these learning situations. At present I will >> mention >> only two: >> >> >> >> 1) Education always introduces asymmetries into development, supporting >> some potential opportunities and age not supporting others. The dream of >> all-round harmonious development is unattainable due to the specific >> relationship of instruction and development. >> >> >> >> 2) For the *reflexive development* of the child, interaction with adults >> who are familiar and knowledgeable about the subject matter needs to be >> supplemented by interaction with peers who do not know the answers and are >> not more knowledgeable. This [dual necessity] is on the one hand, well >> known and repeatedly demonstrated, but on the other hand, it is constantly >> ignored. For me, this is important because it makes re-think one of the >> most quoted sayings of Vygotsky: "Zone of Proximal Development - is the >> distance between the level of a child's actual development as determined >> by >> the tasks presented that are accomplished independently, and the level of >> potential development, determined by means of a procedure in which >> problems >> are solved under the leadership of adults or in collaboration with more >> knowledgeable peers." >> >> >> >> ?Is this another way of formulating Ed Wall's idea of rigor and >> responsiveness in pedagogical terms? Sort of like modes and relations of >> production one might say. >> >> mike? >> >> ? >> 21-kak-mlsch-uchatsa_2000.pdf >> > c/view?usp=drive_web> >> ? >> >> > >> >>> >> >>> >> > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Dec 9 10:32:27 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 10:32:27 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [MCA] Uploaded Spencer conference proposal, Measuring educational quality and improvement in dialogi... In-Reply-To: <1359657430719866-218137061538581@groups.facebook.com> References: <1359657430719866-218137061538581@groups.facebook.com> <1359657430719866-218137061538581@groups.facebook.com> Message-ID: Seems like a neat idea of a conference. Good luck with that Spencer grant, Eugene. And it appears you have found a way to both post on xmca and unsubscribe at the same time! You must be that ????????? we used to hear about. :-) mike On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 8:56 AM, Eugene Matusov wrote: > Eugene Matusov uploaded a file in MCA . Eugene Matusov December 9 > at 8:55am Dear Dialogic Pedagogy practitioner and/or scholar? A group of > volunteers is working on a Spencer conference grant proposal for a > mini-conference tentatively titled ?Evaluating and measuring educational > quality and improvement in dialogic pedagogy? that, if funded, will occur > during the XVI International Bakhtin Conference that will be held in > Shanghai, China, 6-10 September 2017 (https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/bakhtin). > We want to check how many people will be interested in coming to this > mini-conference and present a paper on one or several following themes: 1. > Issues of and approaches to defining the qualities of education in dialogic > pedagogy; 2. Issues of and approaches to ensuring quality education in > dialogic pedagogy; 3. Issues of and approaches to measurement and > quantification in dialogic pedagogy and their role in defining quality > education; 4. Dialogue, democratization, cultural relevancy, marginalized > identities, social justice, and ownership in defining and pursuing quality > of education. We plan to award presenters with $2,500 travel award. > Attached is our detailed conference proposal. If you are interested please > email to me (Eugene, ematusov@udel.edu) your intent and very tentative > title of your possible proposal (or proposals) AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. By > sending this intent, you are NOT obligated or committed to anything. We > just want to identify interested participants for the proposal. Feel free > to provide your feedback, comments, suggestions, and questions about our > Spencer conference grant proposal. Thanks, Eugene Spencer conference > proposal, Measuring educational quality and improvement in dialogic > pedagogy, draft#3, 2016-12-09.docx Like Comment > > > > > Facebook > > > > > Eugene Matusov > > uploaded a file in MCA > > . > > > Eugene Matusov > December 9 at 8:55am > > Dear Dialogic Pedagogy practitioner and/or scholar? > > A group of volunteers is working on a Spencer conference grant proposal > for a mini-conference tentatively titled ?Evaluating and measuring > educational quality and improvement in dialogic pedagogy? that, if funded, > will occur during the XVI International Bakhtin Conference that will be > held in Shanghai, China, 6-10 September 2017 ( > https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/bakhtin). We want to check how many people > will be interested in coming to this mini-conference and present a paper on > one or several following themes: > 1. Issues of and approaches to defining the qualities of education in > dialogic pedagogy; > 2. Issues of and approaches to ensuring quality education in dialogic > pedagogy; > 3. Issues of and approaches to measurement and quantification in dialogic > pedagogy and their role in defining quality education; > 4. Dialogue, democratization, cultural relevancy, marginalized identities, > social justice, and ownership in defining and pursuing quality of > education. > We plan to award presenters with $2,500 travel award. Attached is our > detailed conference proposal. > > If you are interested please email to me (Eugene, ematusov@udel.edu) your > intent and very tentative title of your possible proposal (or proposals) AS > SOON AS POSSIBLE. By sending this intent, you are NOT obligated or > committed to anything. We just want to identify interested participants for > the proposal. > > Feel free to provide your feedback, comments, suggestions, and questions > about our Spencer conference grant proposal. > > Thanks, > > Eugene > Spencer conference proposal, Measuring educational quality and improvement > in dialogic pedagogy, draft#3, 2016-12-09.docx > > > Like > > > Comment > > > > > > > View on Facebook > > > > Edit Email Settings > > > > > Reply to this email to comment on this post. > > > > This message was sent to lchcmike@gmail.com. If you don't want to receive > these emails from Facebook in the future, please unsubscribe > > . > Facebook, Inc., Attention: Community Support, 1 Hacker Way, Menlo Park, CA > 94025 > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Dec 9 14:47:03 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 14:47:03 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] The Fifth International Luria Memorial Congress. Message-ID: Jena Glozman has asked that information about this conference be distributed. Attached. mike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: First information letter-eng.doc Type: application/msword Size: 549376 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161209/890a26bd/attachment.doc From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Dec 11 08:53:22 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 08:53:22 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what wouldaneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com> <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no> <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no> <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com> <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no> <1480807479742.14918@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <584d849e.0b57620a.853fe.e875@mx.google.com> Huw, Your question concerning (voice) and switching between teacher directed goals (her intent to teach mathematics knowledge as structured work) and the (voice) of group mediated work working to interpret the task, checking with each other, criticism, agreement, etc. This back and forth movement framed as two contrasting orientations each expressing their own *tone*. The subtleties in which they can be switched between, merged, fused, (LP -overlayed?) and redeployed from one context to another. What may be overlooked is the teacher?s voice and tone structuring through *orchestrating* the setting such that there is an implicit obligation to conform to the teacher?s voice? Your point of interest (LP ? theme?) concerns the block in creative engagement when the students are obliged to orient to the teacher?s style and voice and tone. What I do not hear in this exploration of shifting orientations expressed through teacher voice and group oriented voice is the voice of the individual (person) whose orientation could be withdrawn from the (scene) drowned out by both the teacher voice and the group mediated voice. To hear his/her tentative voice requires what Winnicott called a *holding* environment. Others orient to the expression ? hearing the other into voice. In the various modes of subtle orientation and engagement we return to the notion of development as *overlayering* of the attachment voice, imitation voice, playful voice, and the learning voice. Question?: when are these multiple voices merging & fusing and infecting each other and when is there distance through overlaying within the multiple orientations. The image that comes to mind that captures my addition to various voices is of two hands clasping. One adult and one a child?s. The question left unsaid in this image; Who is leading who. I imagine the small hand leading the adult hand. This image can extend to voices, and vision and perceiving in general. Are schools responsible for this *level* or *layer* of orientation of voices? My bias is to answer - yes Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Huw Lloyd Sent: December 9, 2016 8:27 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what wouldaneducationbe?" Phillip sent me a few papers pertaining to social identities, which can be related to the question. But I should like to say that this is not what I had in mind. The point of interest, really, is what is the block in creative engagement when the students do not engage in this specifically structured group work, i.e. when they are responding directly to the teacher. In the teacher-oriented work we have, I am presuming, goals to respond to the teachers requests in particular ways. In the group-mediated work we have, I am also presuming, goals concerning work upon interpretation of the task, checking with each other, criticism, agreement etc. It is the tone of these various modes of orientation and engagement I am referring to and the subtleties with which they may be switched between, merged, or redeployed from one context to another. For example, could this be a product of the teacher's authority for orchestrating the structured setting, such that the obligation to conform to the settings overlooked by the teacher prevent the students from direct interpretation and criticism? Best, Huw On 6 December 2016 at 12:39, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Well, here is a speculative question which may interest Galina: to what > degree is "voice" (situated identity and active orientation towards > particular role-meanings) considered in the platform (the group sustaining > their inquiry) established? > > From one perspective it does not matter too much whether it is considered, > so long as the students attend and respond to the imagery they experience. > Does one even try to distinguish "active persona" on a > scientific/repeatable basis? > > On the other hand it may lend further leverage into discerning the > conflicts and associations between "voice". E.g. whether the direct > (rather than group-mediated) voice of the teacher does not directly block > the students creative and reflexive consideration, but rather that it > powerfully evokes a particular formalised voice on the part of the student. > The consideration was that this might be an appropriate way to link > dialogical (i.e. Bakhtin) considerations to the cognitive aspects of AT and > (perhaps) the implicit thought modes accompanying them. > > As I see it, this still supports the adult-child participations, > particularly with respect to directives, e.g. the short verb phrases > commonly acquired by infants/toddlers. At home we have a delightful phrase > that moved from a caution to mocking (which I think may have been started > by our youngest) which is "Tell-you-off!" it is full off mock reprimand and > gruffly spoken when someone isn't following the script (toddlers love > scripts). > > Another thought I had regarding platforms was that when I was at > primary/middle school computers were practically shunned by adults, which > was brilliant. Not only could one devote lots of uninterrupted time to > building things that worked out of one's imagination, the adults would nod > approvingly and say to themselves that the child was learning "computer > skills". Micro-computers at that juncture not only provided an operating > system platform (usually manifesting as a little blinking cursor, inviting > you to write a program) they established a social space/platform too. But > not only that, the computer housed the reflections of one's ideas which, > just like one's attention, could be brought to life in an instant. > > Best, > Huw > > On 5 December 2016 at 17:02, mike cole wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues -- Here is my quick translation of Galina's response to my >> invitation to join the discussion of her paper. (Note that she refers to >> reflexive thinking which is the topic of a second paper I am not sure >> everyone has obtained). >> >> I would emphasize her point that this work was written in the 1980's, >> published in 2000, and available to us only now in English. These temporal >> facts and their implications in terms of judgments about the political >> context of the work ought to be kept in mind when interpreting aspects of >> the text. Speaking personally, Phillip's comments about the common values >> across different systems of state sponsored mass education provide a >> reasonable interpretive framework. >> >> Here are Galina's comments: >> >> Michael - >> >> I send you a book file, part of which has been translated and is now being >> discussed. I am of two minds about participating in the discussion. Do I >> want to participate in the discussion? Yes and no. Yes, because I have >> never tired of learning. No, because I am tired of the socio-political >> myths that gradually sinks discussion. >> >> >> >> With regard to the politics. El'konin and Davydov were and remain >> dissidents both in relation to their own times, and in the new millennium; >> and in their personal behavior and professional accomplishments are >> important for me, because I love these people and their ideas. >> >> >> >> The book *How do younger school children learn to learn?* (from which the >> article was selected). It was published in 2000 and written in the late >> 80s. Is it outdated? Yes and no. Obsolete are the specific examples of >> learning situations I used to illustrate various pedagogical ideas. But >> the >> specific instructional situations described, as a rule, were recorded on >> the day of testing: the result of the main lessons from a good teacher - >> an >> understanding of how today's ideas could be implemented better, fuller, >> and >> more clearly remain useful. What has not aged are ideas about interpsychic >> action, illustrated by these learning situations. At present I will >> mention >> only two: >> >> >> >> 1) Education always introduces asymmetries into development, supporting >> some potential opportunities and age not supporting others. The dream of >> all-round harmonious development is unattainable due to the specific >> relationship of instruction and development. >> >> >> >> 2) For the *reflexive development* of the child, interaction with adults >> who are familiar and knowledgeable about the subject matter needs to be >> supplemented by interaction with peers who do not know the answers and are >> not more knowledgeable. This [dual necessity] is on the one hand, well >> known and repeatedly demonstrated, but on the other hand, it is constantly >> ignored. For me, this is important because it makes re-think one of the >> most quoted sayings of Vygotsky: "Zone of Proximal Development - is the >> distance between the level of a child's actual development as determined >> by >> the tasks presented that are accomplished independently, and the level of >> potential development, determined by means of a procedure in which >> problems >> are solved under the leadership of adults or in collaboration with more >> knowledgeable peers." >> >> >> >> ?Is this another way of formulating Ed Wall's idea of rigor and >> responsiveness in pedagogical terms? Sort of like modes and relations of >> production one might say. >> >> mike? >> >> ? >> 21-kak-mlsch-uchatsa_2000.pdf >> > c/view?usp=drive_web> >> ? >> >> > >> >>> >> >>> >> > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Dec 11 10:34:29 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 10:34:29 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "whatwouldaneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: <584d849e.0b57620a.853fe.e875@mx.google.com> References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com> <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no> <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no> <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com> <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no> <1480807479742.14918@iped.uio.no> <584d849e.0b57620a.853fe.e875@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <584d9c50.159b620a.66d36.e520@mx.google.com> Huw, I downloaded your paper (Active Orientation) from academia.edu. On page 2/3 you state?: In more quiescent moments we may find ourselves reflecting or merely recollecting with no apparent conscious purpose; we may perhaps simply appreciate the recollective imagery, to devote our attention to noticing it, or simply to remark at it. YET, under such circumstances, thoughts still arise IN RELATION TO active orientations. It is this relation of two types of orientation with two differing styles and tones each in relation to the other that seems a central back and forth in our ways of orienting Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: December 11, 2016 8:53 AM To: Huw Lloyd; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "whatwouldaneducationbe?" Huw, Your question concerning (voice) and switching between teacher directed goals (her intent to teach mathematics? knowledge as structured work) and the (voice) of group mediated work working to interpret the task, checking with each other, criticism, agreement, etc. This back and forth movement framed as two contrasting orientations each expressing their own *tone*. The subtleties in which they can be switched between, merged, fused, (LP -overlayed?) and redeployed from one context to another. What may be overlooked is the teacher?s voice and tone structuring through *orchestrating* the setting such that there is an implicit obligation to conform to the teacher?s voice? Your point of interest (LP ? theme?) concerns the block in creative engagement when the students are obliged to orient to the teacher?s style and voice and tone. What I do not hear in this exploration of shifting orientations expressed through teacher voice and group oriented voice is the voice of the individual (person) whose orientation could be withdrawn from the (scene) drowned out by both the teacher voice and the group mediated voice. To hear his/her tentative voice requires what Winnicott called a *holding* environment. Others orient to the expression ? hearing the other into voice. In the various modes of subtle orientation and engagement we return to the notion of development as *overlayering* of the attachment voice, imitation voice, playful voice, and the learning voice. Question?: when are these multiple voices merging & fusing and infecting each other and when is there distance through overlaying within the multiple orientations. The image that comes to mind that captures my addition to various voices ?is of two hands clasping. One adult and one a child?s. The question left unsaid in this image; Who is leading who. I imagine the small hand leading the adult hand. This image can extend to voices, and vision and perceiving in general. Are schools responsible for this *level* or *layer* of orientation of voices? My bias is to answer - yes Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Huw Lloyd Sent: December 9, 2016 8:27 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what wouldaneducationbe?" Phillip sent me a few papers pertaining to social identities, which can be related to the question.? But I should like to say that this is not what I had in mind. The point of interest, really, is what is the block in creative engagement when the students do not engage in this specifically structured group work, i.e. when they are responding directly to the teacher. In the teacher-oriented work we have, I am presuming, goals to respond to the teachers requests in particular ways.? In the group-mediated work we have, I am also presuming, goals concerning work upon interpretation of the task, checking with each other, criticism, agreement etc.? It is the tone of these various modes of orientation and engagement I am referring to and the subtleties with which they may be switched between, merged, or redeployed from one context to another. For example, could this be a product of the teacher's authority for orchestrating the structured setting, such that the obligation to conform to the settings overlooked by the teacher prevent the students from direct interpretation and criticism? Best, Huw On 6 December 2016 at 12:39, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Well, here is a speculative question which may interest Galina: to what > degree is "voice" (situated identity and active orientation towards > particular role-meanings) considered in the platform (the group sustaining > their inquiry) established? > > From one perspective it does not matter too much whether it is considered, > so long as the students attend and respond to the imagery they experience. > Does one even try to distinguish "active persona" on a > scientific/repeatable basis? > > On the other hand it may lend further leverage into discerning the > conflicts and associations between "voice".? E.g. whether the direct > (rather than group-mediated) voice of the teacher does not directly block > the students creative and reflexive consideration, but rather that it > powerfully evokes a particular formalised voice on the part of the student. > The consideration was that this might be an appropriate way to link > dialogical (i.e. Bakhtin) considerations to the cognitive aspects of AT and > (perhaps) the implicit thought modes accompanying them. > > As I see it, this still supports the adult-child participations, > particularly with respect to directives, e.g. the short verb phrases > commonly acquired by infants/toddlers.? At home we have a delightful phrase > that moved from a caution to mocking (which I think may have been started > by our youngest) which is "Tell-you-off!" it is full off mock reprimand and > gruffly spoken when someone isn't following the script (toddlers love > scripts). > > Another thought I had regarding platforms was that when I was at > primary/middle school computers were practically shunned by adults, which > was brilliant. Not only could one devote lots of uninterrupted time to > building things that worked out of one's imagination, the adults would nod > approvingly and say to themselves that the child was learning "computer > skills".? Micro-computers at that juncture not only provided an operating > system platform (usually manifesting as a little blinking cursor, inviting > you to write a program) they established a social space/platform too.? But > not only that, the computer housed the reflections of one's ideas which, > just like one's attention, could be brought to life in an instant. > > Best, > Huw > > On 5 December 2016 at 17:02, mike cole wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues -- Here is my quick translation of Galina's response to my >> invitation to join the discussion of her paper. (Note that she refers to >> reflexive thinking which is the topic of a second paper I am not sure >> everyone has obtained). >> >> I would emphasize her point that this work was written in the 1980's, >> published in 2000, and available to us only now in English. These temporal >> facts and their implications in terms of judgments about the political >> context of the work ought to be kept in mind when interpreting aspects of >> the text. Speaking personally, Phillip's comments about the common values >> across different systems of state sponsored mass education provide a >> reasonable interpretive framework. >> >> Here are Galina's comments: >> >> Michael - >> >> I send you a book file, part of which has been translated and is now being >> discussed. I am of two minds about participating in the discussion. Do I >> want to participate in the discussion? Yes and no. Yes, because I have >> never tired of learning. No, because I am tired of the socio-political >> myths that gradually sinks discussion. >> >> >> >> With regard to the politics. El'konin and Davydov were and remain >> dissidents both in relation to their own times, and in the new millennium; >> and in their personal behavior and professional accomplishments are >> important for me, because I love these people and their ideas. >> >> >> >> The book *How do younger school children learn to learn?* (from which the >> article was selected). It was published in 2000 and written in the late >> 80s. Is it outdated? Yes and no. Obsolete are the specific examples of >> learning situations I used to illustrate various pedagogical ideas. But >> the >> specific instructional situations described, as a rule, were recorded on >> the day of testing: the result of the main lessons from a good teacher - >> an >> understanding of how today's ideas could be implemented better, fuller, >> and >> more clearly remain useful. What has not aged are ideas about interpsychic >> action, illustrated by these learning situations. At present I will >> mention >> only two: >> >> >> >> 1) Education always introduces asymmetries into development, supporting >> some potential opportunities and age not supporting others. The dream of >> all-round harmonious development is unattainable due to the specific >> relationship of instruction and development. >> >> >> >> 2) For the *reflexive development* of the child, interaction with adults >> who are familiar and knowledgeable about the subject matter needs to be >> supplemented by interaction with peers who do not know the answers and are >> not more knowledgeable. This [dual necessity] is on the one hand, well >> known and repeatedly demonstrated, but on the other hand, it is constantly >> ignored. For me, this is important because it makes re-think one of the >> most quoted sayings of Vygotsky: "Zone of Proximal Development - is the >> distance between the level of a child's actual development as determined >> by >> the tasks presented that are accomplished independently, and the level of >> potential development, determined by means of a procedure in which >> problems >> are solved under the leadership of adults or in collaboration with more >> knowledgeable peers." >> >> >> >> ?Is this another way of formulating Ed Wall's idea of rigor and >> responsiveness in pedagogical terms? Sort of like modes and relations of >> production one might say. >> >> mike? >> >> ? >>? 21-kak-mlsch-uchatsa_2000.pdf >> > c/view?usp=drive_web> >> ? >> >> > >> >>> >> >>> >> > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Dec 11 15:14:20 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 23:14:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what wouldaneducationbe?" In-Reply-To: <584d849e.0b57620a.853fe.e875@mx.google.com> References: <1480537143154.57046@iped.uio.no> <583f7715.ce1d620a.466b4.8e8f@mx.google.com> <58404b36.829d630a.51de8.3312@mx.google.com> <5840866e.4564630a.ade96.6aab@mx.google.com> <1480637967487.77861@iped.uio.no> <5840ec8d.0896620a.87bc0.ebad@mx.google.com> <1480657244606.91178@iped.uio.no> <584192ad.8d02630a.6b3d7.b8c9@mx.google.com> <1480721684035.70303@iped.uio.no> <1480807479742.14918@iped.uio.no> <584d849e.0b57620a.853fe.e875@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Larry, by overlooked, I meant over-seeing rather than missing something. Sorry for any confusion. For the question I was pondering, I was concerned with the hypothesis of participating students, ones for whom the special working groups were productive, and considering why an appropriate orientation could not be sustained if they worked more directly with the teacher. E.g. whether this was a psychological and social constraint or more of a practical one. The other issues you mention are all relevant, it is merely that they weren't the focus of my thought-question. It is probably worth mentioning that the group work Galina has written about is not (to my mind) the same thing as what we often find in schools with respect to group work in conventional classrooms. For the groups Galina writes about there has been sustained work in establishing particular forms of conduct and orientation towards the group work, which is directed at genuine enquiry rather than a performance. Best, Huw On 11 December 2016 at 16:53, wrote: > Huw, > > Your question concerning (voice) and switching between teacher directed > goals (her intent to teach mathematics knowledge as structured work) and > the (voice) of group mediated work working to interpret the task, checking > with each other, criticism, agreement, etc. > > > > This back and forth movement framed as two contrasting orientations each > expressing their own **tone**. > > The subtleties in which they can be switched between, merged, fused, (LP > -overlayed?) and redeployed from one context to another. > > What may be overlooked is the teacher?s voice and tone structuring through > **orchestrating** the setting such that there is an implicit obligation > to conform to the teacher?s voice? > > Your point of interest (LP ? theme?) concerns the block in creative > engagement when the students are obliged to orient to the teacher?s style > and voice and tone. > > > > What I do not hear in this exploration of shifting orientations expressed > through teacher voice and group oriented voice is the voice of the > individual (person) whose orientation could be withdrawn from the (scene) > drowned out by both the teacher voice and the group mediated voice. > > > > To hear his/her tentative voice requires what Winnicott called a * > *holding** environment. Others orient to the expression ? hearing the > other into voice. > > > > In the various modes of subtle orientation and engagement we return to the > notion of development as **overlayering** of the attachment voice, > imitation voice, playful voice, and the learning voice. > > Question : when are these multiple voices merging & fusing and infecting > each other and when is there distance through overlaying within the > multiple orientations. > > > > The image that comes to mind that captures my addition to various voices > is of two hands clasping. One adult and one a child?s. The question left > unsaid in this image; > > Who is leading who. I imagine the small hand leading the adult hand. This > image can extend to voices, and vision and perceiving in general. > > Are schools responsible for this **level** or **layer** of orientation of > voices? > > My bias is to answer - yes > > > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > *From: *Huw Lloyd > *Sent: *December 9, 2016 8:27 AM > *To: *eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: Zuckerman's 2016 article and "what > wouldaneducationbe?" > > > > Phillip sent me a few papers pertaining to social identities, which can be > > related to the question. But I should like to say that this is not what I > > had in mind. > > > > The point of interest, really, is what is the block in creative engagement > > when the students do not engage in this specifically structured group work, > > i.e. when they are responding directly to the teacher. > > > > In the teacher-oriented work we have, I am presuming, goals to respond to > > the teachers requests in particular ways. In the group-mediated work we > > have, I am also presuming, goals concerning work upon interpretation of the > > task, checking with each other, criticism, agreement etc. It is the tone > > of these various modes of orientation and engagement I am referring to and > > the subtleties with which they may be switched between, merged, or > > redeployed from one context to another. For example, could this be a > > product of the teacher's authority for orchestrating the structured > > setting, such that the obligation to conform to the settings overlooked by > > the teacher prevent the students from direct interpretation and criticism? > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > On 6 December 2016 at 12:39, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > > > Well, here is a speculative question which may interest Galina: to what > > > degree is "voice" (situated identity and active orientation towards > > > particular role-meanings) considered in the platform (the group > sustaining > > > their inquiry) established? > > > > > > From one perspective it does not matter too much whether it is > considered, > > > so long as the students attend and respond to the imagery they > experience. > > > Does one even try to distinguish "active persona" on a > > > scientific/repeatable basis? > > > > > > On the other hand it may lend further leverage into discerning the > > > conflicts and associations between "voice". E.g. whether the direct > > > (rather than group-mediated) voice of the teacher does not directly block > > > the students creative and reflexive consideration, but rather that it > > > powerfully evokes a particular formalised voice on the part of the > student. > > > The consideration was that this might be an appropriate way to link > > > dialogical (i.e. Bakhtin) considerations to the cognitive aspects of AT > and > > > (perhaps) the implicit thought modes accompanying them. > > > > > > As I see it, this still supports the adult-child participations, > > > particularly with respect to directives, e.g. the short verb phrases > > > commonly acquired by infants/toddlers. At home we have a delightful > phrase > > > that moved from a caution to mocking (which I think may have been started > > > by our youngest) which is "Tell-you-off!" it is full off mock reprimand > and > > > gruffly spoken when someone isn't following the script (toddlers love > > > scripts). > > > > > > Another thought I had regarding platforms was that when I was at > > > primary/middle school computers were practically shunned by adults, which > > > was brilliant. Not only could one devote lots of uninterrupted time to > > > building things that worked out of one's imagination, the adults would > nod > > > approvingly and say to themselves that the child was learning "computer > > > skills". Micro-computers at that juncture not only provided an operating > > > system platform (usually manifesting as a little blinking cursor, > inviting > > > you to write a program) they established a social space/platform too. > But > > > not only that, the computer housed the reflections of one's ideas which, > > > just like one's attention, could be brought to life in an instant. > > > > > > Best, > > > Huw > > > > > > On 5 December 2016 at 17:02, mike cole wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Colleagues -- Here is my quick translation of Galina's response to > my > > >> invitation to join the discussion of her paper. (Note that she refers to > > >> reflexive thinking which is the topic of a second paper I am not sure > > >> everyone has obtained). > > >> > > >> I would emphasize her point that this work was written in the 1980's, > > >> published in 2000, and available to us only now in English. These > temporal > > >> facts and their implications in terms of judgments about the political > > >> context of the work ought to be kept in mind when interpreting aspects > of > > >> the text. Speaking personally, Phillip's comments about the common > values > > >> across different systems of state sponsored mass education provide a > > >> reasonable interpretive framework. > > >> > > >> Here are Galina's comments: > > >> > > >> Michael - > > >> > > >> I send you a book file, part of which has been translated and is now > being > > >> discussed. I am of two minds about participating in the discussion. Do I > > >> want to participate in the discussion? Yes and no. Yes, because I have > > >> never tired of learning. No, because I am tired of the socio-political > > >> myths that gradually sinks discussion. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> With regard to the politics. El'konin and Davydov were and remain > > >> dissidents both in relation to their own times, and in the new > millennium; > > >> and in their personal behavior and professional accomplishments are > > >> important for me, because I love these people and their ideas. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> The book *How do younger school children learn to learn?* (from which > the > > >> article was selected). It was published in 2000 and written in the late > > >> 80s. Is it outdated? Yes and no. Obsolete are the specific examples of > > >> learning situations I used to illustrate various pedagogical ideas. But > > >> the > > >> specific instructional situations described, as a rule, were recorded on > > >> the day of testing: the result of the main lessons from a good teacher - > > >> an > > >> understanding of how today's ideas could be implemented better, fuller, > > >> and > > >> more clearly remain useful. What has not aged are ideas about > interpsychic > > >> action, illustrated by these learning situations. At present I will > > >> mention > > >> only two: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> 1) Education always introduces asymmetries into development, supporting > > >> some potential opportunities and age not supporting others. The dream of > > >> all-round harmonious development is unattainable due to the specific > > >> relationship of instruction and development. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> 2) For the *reflexive development* of the child, interaction with adults > > >> who are familiar and knowledgeable about the subject matter needs to be > > >> supplemented by interaction with peers who do not know the answers and > are > > >> not more knowledgeable. This [dual necessity] is on the one hand, well > > >> known and repeatedly demonstrated, but on the other hand, it is > constantly > > >> ignored. For me, this is important because it makes re-think one of the > > >> most quoted sayings of Vygotsky: "Zone of Proximal Development - is the > > >> distance between the level of a child's actual development as determined > > >> by > > >> the tasks presented that are accomplished independently, and the level > of > > >> potential development, determined by means of a procedure in which > > >> problems > > >> are solved under the leadership of adults or in collaboration with more > > >> knowledgeable peers." > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ?Is this another way of formulating Ed Wall's idea of rigor and > > >> responsiveness in pedagogical terms? Sort of like modes and relations of > > >> production one might say. > > >> > > >> mike? > > >> > > >> ? > > >> 21-kak-mlsch-uchatsa_2000.pdf > > >> > >> c/view?usp=drive_web> > > >> ? > > >> > > >> > > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> > > > > > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Dec 12 09:09:35 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 09:09:35 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [ACYIG_Lifecourse] Double-edged agency: ambivalences, fluctuations and sub-currents across life-course trajectories In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This particular call for papers seems to hold potential interest for a number of xmca participants. If irrlevant, hit delete! mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jason Danely Date: Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:15 AM Subject: [ACYIG_Lifecourse] Double-edged agency: ambivalences, fluctuations and sub-currents across life-course trajectories To: acyig_lifecourse@binhost.com ? apologies for cross-posting ? Deadline for submission: 19 December 2017. http://nomadit.co.uk/cascaiuaes2017/suite/panels.php5?PanelID=5385 *Double-edged agency: ambivalences, fluctuations and sub-currents across life-course trajectories* Short Abstract Distributions of agency are commonly enabled, mediated and restricted with reference to phases, moments and events within trajectories through the life-course. This panel explores how these become framed in ways that enable, mediate or constrain agency, according to multiple influences. Long Abstract Anthropological theorizing has productively challenged received notions of agency, exploring the complexities of how it is distributed across the human and non-human (Latour), the present and the absent (Bille et al. 2010), resistance to and articulation with norms (Mahmood 2005). This panel focuses on how such distributions of agency are enabled, mediated and restricted with reference to trajectories through the life-course, through such phases as older age, adulthood, childhood or infancy, or moments and events such as illness, loss, parenthood, or retirement. Individuals' and groups' capacity to exercise agency fluctuates at these times in response to multiple influences (biographical, situational, ethical, material and institutional), attested to by the language of movement used in modern Western societies to describe such processes: 'moving on', 'leaving behind', 'progressing', 'backsliding', 'journey', 'emerging', 'getting stuck'. Papers might explore, but are not limited to, the following questions: ? How do social framings characterize agency and self-determination in such moments, events and phases as protective or dangerous, constraining or facilitating, valid or misleading? ? How do individuals and collectivities selectively embrace or contest such framings in specific settings? ? How might the life-course provide a metaphorical and symbolic language that speaks to questions of agency in other contexts (e.g. the infantilizing of particular social groups)? Relevant papers may speak to a range of fieldwork settings, including health, welfare, political participation, education and international development; we would also encourage papers that approach the topic from relevant theoretical perspectives on the contemporary politics of agency and movement. Convenors * David Orr (University of Sussex) d.orr@sussex.ac.uk * Sevasti-Melissa Nolas (University of Sussex) s.nolas@sussex.ac.uk Deadline for submissions 19th December 2016 -- Dr Sevasti-Melissa Nolas Senior Lecturer/Principal Investigator, ERC-funded Connectors Study Department of Social Work & Centre for Innovation and Research in Childhood & Youth (CIRCY) , University of Sussex Email: S.Nolas@sussex.ac.uk | Tel: 01273 678569 / 07989 330704 | Twitter: @smnolas | Skype: sevasti-melissa_nolas Latest papers: Nolas, S-M., Varvantakis, C. & Aruldoss, V. (2016) ?(Im)possible conversations? Activism, childhood and everyday life ?, *Journal of Social and Political Psychology*, 4(1), pp. 252-265. (Open Access). Sanders-McDonagh, E., Neville, L. & Nolas, S-M. (2016) ?from pillar to post: understanding the victimization of women and children who experience domestic violence in an age of austerity ?, *Feminist Review, *112, pp. 60-76. Full evaluation report here . Jason Danely *Senior Lecturer in Anthropology of JapanOxford Brookes UniversityOX3 0BP, UK* jdanely@brookes.ac.uk http://www.jasondanely.com Twitter @JasonDanely President, Association of Anthropology, Gerontology, and the Life Course (AAGE) Editorial Board *Anthropology & Aging *http://anthro-age.pitt.edu Co-Facilitator of the Life Course Collaborative Research Network *Aging and Loss: Mourning and Maturity in Contemporary Japan* , Jason Danely, 2014 Rutgers University Press _______________________________________________ ACYIG_Lifecourse mailing list ACYIG_Lifecourse@binhost.com https://lists.capalon.com/lists/listinfo/acyig_lifecourse From jherazo4@hotmail.com Mon Dec 12 09:30:04 2016 From: jherazo4@hotmail.com (jose david herazo) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 17:30:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] request for pdf Message-ID: Dear all, Does anybody on this list have a digital copy of Using the tool-kit of discourse in the activity of learning and teaching, by Gordon Wells. This piece was published in Mind Culture, and Activity in 1996. I have been unable to download it from my Univserity's library, since it only allows access to articles published from 1997. I would appreciate if you could send a copy. best, JOSE DAVID HERAZO Universidad de C?rdoba, Colombia From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Dec 12 10:06:08 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 10:06:08 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: request for pdf In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sure Jose David Herazo, here is a copy. What sort of research are you doing for which Gordon's ideas provide a potentially useful tool? mike cole On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 9:30 AM, jose david herazo wrote: > Dear all, > > > Does anybody on this list have a digital copy of Using the tool-kit of > discourse in the activity of learning and teaching tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/s15327884mca0302_2>, by Gordon Wells. > This piece was published in Mind Culture, and Activity in 1996. I have been > unable to download it from my Univserity's library, since it only allows > access to articles published from 1997. I would appreciate if you could > send a copy. > > > best, > > > JOSE DAVID HERAZO > > Universidad de C?rdoba, Colombia > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Using the Tool Kit of Discourse in the Activity of Learning and Teaching.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2489794 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161212/6ded8cdb/attachment-0001.pdf From jherazo4@hotmail.com Mon Dec 12 10:54:35 2016 From: jherazo4@hotmail.com (jose david herazo) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 18:54:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: request for pdf In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Thank you so much Mike (if I may). I'm working right now on a study (and manuscript) that compares an ESL teacher's realization of corrective feedback (CF) and dynamic assessment (DA) in a school classroom. I'm using activity theory as analytic framework. Dr. Well's ideas of interaction sequence, nuclear exchange, and bound exchange have been useful to estimate whether CF and DA differ in terms of mean sequence length. This as part of my analysis of mediation tools in teacher's discourse. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 12, 2016, at 1:10 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Sure Jose David Herazo, here is a copy. > What sort of research are you doing for which Gordon's ideas provide a > potentially useful tool? > > mike cole > > On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 9:30 AM, jose david herazo > wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> >> Does anybody on this list have a digital copy of Using the tool-kit of >> discourse in the activity of learning and teaching> tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/s15327884mca0302_2>, by Gordon Wells. >> This piece was published in Mind Culture, and Activity in 1996. I have been >> unable to download it from my Univserity's library, since it only allows >> access to articles published from 1997. I would appreciate if you could >> send a copy. >> >> >> best, >> >> >> JOSE DAVID HERAZO >> >> Universidad de C?rdoba, Colombia >> >> > From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Dec 12 11:17:25 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 11:17:25 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: request for pdf In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We'll look forward to an article about the work, Jose. Good luck with it. And congratulations to you and your colleagues for your president's Nobel Peace Prize. mike On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 10:54 AM, jose david herazo wrote: > Thank you so much Mike (if I may). > > I'm working right now on a study (and manuscript) that compares an ESL > teacher's realization of corrective feedback (CF) and dynamic assessment > (DA) in a school classroom. I'm using activity theory as analytic > framework. Dr. Well's ideas of interaction sequence, nuclear exchange, and > bound exchange have been useful to estimate whether CF and DA differ in > terms of mean sequence length. This as part of my analysis of mediation > tools in teacher's discourse. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Dec 12, 2016, at 1:10 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > Sure Jose David Herazo, here is a copy. > > What sort of research are you doing for which Gordon's ideas provide a > > potentially useful tool? > > > > mike cole > > > > On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 9:30 AM, jose david herazo > > > wrote: > > > >> Dear all, > >> > >> > >> Does anybody on this list have a digital copy of Using the tool-kit of > >> discourse in the activity of learning and teaching >> tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/s15327884mca0302_2>, by Gordon Wells. > >> This piece was published in Mind Culture, and Activity in 1996. I have > been > >> unable to download it from my Univserity's library, since it only allows > >> access to articles published from 1997. I would appreciate if you could > >> send a copy. > >> > >> > >> best, > >> > >> > >> JOSE DAVID HERAZO > >> > >> Universidad de C?rdoba, Colombia > >> > >> > > Teaching.pdf> > From smago@uga.edu Tue Dec 13 06:03:58 2016 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 14:03:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Peter Smagorinsky discusses his new book on autism-spectrum youth In-Reply-To: <1126664058117.1101246158194.1835.0.200831JL.1002@scheduler.constantcontact.com> References: <1126664058117.1101246158194.1835.0.200831JL.1002@scheduler.constantcontact.com> Message-ID: In case anyone?s interested in what is known as ?mental health,? Lois just released this podcast we did on a book that will allegedly be published soon, tho has been through a lot of delays in production. It runs a little over a half-hour. p From: Lois Holzman [mailto:melissaj@eastsideinstitute.ccsend.com] On Behalf Of Lois Holzman Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 8:32 AM To: Peter Smagorinsky Subject: Peter Smagorinsky discusses his new book on autism-spectrum youth Dear Friends, We are re-sending this email because there was an error in the link for the audio file. Happy listening! Melissa Dear Friends, I'm pleased to bring your attention to an important new book: Creativity and Community among Autism-Spectrum Youth: Creating Positive Social Updrafts through Play and Performance. Edited by Peter Smagorinsky, Distinguished Research Professor of English Education at the University of Georgia, the book contains chapters by practitioners and scholars who offer an alternative to the cognitive/behavioral and behaviorist approaches to working with Autism-spectrum youth. Many of the chapters are first-person narratives that paint vivid pictures of children and their families struggling to live their lives developmentally in a diagnostic and stigmatizing culture. Dr. Smagorinsky's own work challenges the disabling assumptions surrounding Autism and Asberger's. His chapter in Creativity and Community among Autism-Spectrum Youth pushes back with a Vygotskian/developmental framing of the issues facing the 'neurally atypical' and with what he's come to refer to his own "Asperger's Advantage." Earlier this year, I interviewed Dr Smagorinsky and got the 'back story' of the book-how he got interested in Autism; what in his career led him to Vygotsky; how he conceptualized the book and what he learned in writing and putting it together; how the invited contributors influenced his thinking on mental illness, diagnosis, human development, and play and performance. It's a conversation that I recorded and want to share with you. I invite you to listen HERE to our conversation - an intimate recounting that weaves together personal, political and intellectual history. You can also order the book here. All Best, Lois P.S. Here are a few highlights from our conversation... Listen here. - Much of the research on autism is heartbreaking. They take people with so much potential and turn them into smoldering heaps of disability.... - Vygotsky was concerned with creating new settings that were both discursive and material, and that's what I find useful. That's why he spoke to me. - If you haven't also created different material environments for kids, you've only created a different way of talking. You haven't transformed how people navigate their day. East Side Institute, 119 W 23 Street, Suite 902, New York, NY 10011 SafeUnsubscribe? smago@uga.edu Forward this email | Update Profile | About our service provider Sent by lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org in collaboration with [Constant Contact] Try it free today From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Dec 13 11:15:57 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 11:15:57 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] The Power of Money in Schools Message-ID: This article from today's NY times seems as if it worth considering in the context of neoliberalism and education. mike http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/12/nyregion/it-turns-out-spending-more-probably-does-improve-education.html?_r=0 From Peg.Griffin@att.net Tue Dec 13 12:43:06 2016 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 15:43:06 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Power of Money in Schools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006901d25581$823550c0$869ff240$@att.net> Thanks, Mike! (And folks can get the pdf if the go to the link and give an "edu" address.) PG -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:16 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] The Power of Money in Schools This article from today's NY times seems as if it worth considering in the context of neoliberalism and education. mike http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/12/nyregion/it-turns-out-spending-more-probably-does-improve-education.html?_r=0 From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Dec 15 08:15:22 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:15:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: RSF Bulletin: New Book: Abandoned Families; New Journal Issue: Big Data in Political Economy In-Reply-To: <300.0.15.50F.1D256E40AC15BB0.5C1D4@me-ss2-vsujbl.mailengine1.com> References: <300.0.15.50F.1D256E40AC15BB0.5C1D4@me-ss2-vsujbl.mailengine1.com> Message-ID: The summary of the book on abandoned families speaks to continuing discussion of the role of educational systems in creating social inequalities. FYI Mike ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Russell Sage Foundation Date: Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 7:01 AM Subject: RSF Bulletin: New Book: Abandoned Families; New Journal Issue: Big Data in Political Economy To: Click here to view this message in a browser . [image: RSF Bulletin] *New Book: Abandoned Families: Social Isolation in the Twenty-First Century* Education, employment, and home ownership have long been considered stepping stones to the middle class. But *Abandoned Families: Social Isolation in the Twenty-First Century* , a new book by social policy expert Kristin Seefeldt (University of Michigan), shows that many working families have access only to low-performing post-secondary education, poor-quality jobs, and housing in neighborhoods which offer few chances for upward mobility. Seefeldt, who conducted in-depth interviews over a six-year period with women in Detroit, documents the increasing social isolation of many low-income workers, particularly African Americans, and analyzes how failed institutions prevent them from achieving the American Dream of upward mobility. Seefeldt shows that while most of her respondents work, enroll in higher education, and seek out social safety net benefits in times of crisis, they primarily have access to subpar institutions, which hamper their efforts to get ahead. These include low-wage service sector jobs where workplace violations are common, for-profit schools and online programs that push them further into debt, and homes in depopulated neighborhoods that trap them with underwater mortgages. In addition, the 1996 federal welfare reform and other social safety net changes have made it more difficult for struggling families to receive public benefits that could reduce their economic hardships. At the same time, deregulation of the financial services sector has made it easier for them to access credit, albeit with bad terms. Taken together, these factors contribute to what Seefeldt calls the ?social abandonment? of vulnerable families. Read more and purchase a copy of the book. ------------------------------ *New RSF Journal Issue: Big Data in Political Economy* Rapid technological advances since the 1980s have revolutionized data gathering and changed the nature of many day-to-day transactions. Today, nearly every economic and financial transaction is recorded and can be linked to the individuals involved. This proliferation of ?big data? makes it possible for social scientists to analyze the spending behavior of millions of individuals and firms over long periods of time. In Volume 2, Issue 7 of *RSF: The Russell Sage Foundation Journal of the Social Sciences* , editors Atif Mian (Princeton University) and Howard Rosenthal (New York University) and a group of scholars highlight the possibilities and challenges of this data boom for the social sciences. Contributors explore how big data can provide new insights into such issues as social inequality, political polarization, and the influence of money in politics. They show how large-scale data sources provide unprecedented opportunities to study the links between politics and markets, particularly for analyzing campaign contributions and political participation. Download the open-access issue in full here. ------------------------------ *New Awards Approved in Core RSF Programs* Nine research projects in the RSF?s Behavioral Economics , Social Inequality , Race, Ethnicity, and Immigration , and Future of Work programs, and two projects in RSF?s special initiative on the Affordable Care Act were approved by the trustees at the foundation?s November 2016 board meeting. View a description of each award. ------------------------------ *Call for Papers for the RSF Journal: Criminal Justice Contact and Inequality* A forthcoming issue of the *RSF* journal , edited by Kristin Turney (University of California, Irvine) and Sara Wakefield (Rutgers University), seeks creative and rigorous papers from multiple disciplines and methodologies to explore the consequences of criminal justice contact for individuals, families, and communities. The editors encourage proposals for papers that reflect on how criminal justice contact creates, maintains, and exacerbates social inequalities in the United States. Papers that propose new methods for studying inequalities that are associated with the criminal justice system are also encouraged. The deadline for proposals is *January 15, 2017, at 5 p.m. ET*. Read the call for proposals and view submission guidelines. ------------------------------ *Early Career Behavioral Economics (ECBE) Conference* The third Early Career Behavioral Economics (ECBE) conference will be held at Carnegie Mellon University (Pittsburgh, PA) on June 16 ? 17, 2017. Applications will be accepted until *January 31, 2017*. This conference provides a platform for early career researchers to present papers and receive feedback from both peers and junior faculty members. The conference also promotes the development of a strong community of junior behavioral economics researchers. Read more about the conference and submit a proposal. ------------------------------ *Two Summer Research Training Opportunities:* *Summer Institute in Social Science Genomics* >From June 11?June 23, 2017, RSF will sponsor the second Summer Institute in Social Science Genomics, organized by Daniel Benjamin (University of Southern California) and David Cesarini (New York University), to be held at the Pepper Tree Inn in Santa Barbara, California. Applications will be accepted until *February 13, 2017*. This two-week workshop will introduce graduate students, postdoctoral fellows and early career faculty in economics, sociology, psychology, statistics, genetics, and other disciplines to the methods and analysis of genomic data in social science research. Read more about the program and submit an application. *Summer Institute in Computational Social Science* >From June 18 ? July 1, 2017, RSF will sponsor its first Summer Institute in Computational Social Science, organized by Christopher Bail (Duke University) and Matthew Salganik (Princeton University), to be held at Princeton University. Applications will be accepted until *February 17, 2017*. The Summer Institute will introduce graduate students, postdoctoral fellows and early career faculty in the social sciences and data sciences to computational social science, or the use of digital-age data sources and methods to conduct social research. The institute will address questions about access, privacy, and confidentiality that are raised by the emergence of these new data and methods. The institute will also introduce participants to a network of scholars with similar interests across disciplines. Read more about the program and submit an application. ------------------------------ *Upcoming Deadline Reminders* The deadline for letters of inquiry for funding in RSF?s core programs on Behavioral Economics; Future of Work; Race, Ethnicity, and Immigration; and Social Inequality is *January 9, 2017, at 2 p.m. ET*. View detailed guidelines on how to apply for funding. The deadline for letters of inquiry for funding in RSF?s special initiative on Integrating Biology and Social Science Knowledge (BioSS) is *January 9, 2017, at 2 p.m. ET*. In collaboration with the Ford Foundation, RSF invites proposals for innovative social science research that explores how biological mechanisms interact with the environment to influence individuals? social and economic outcomes. View detailed guidelines on how to apply for funding. ------------------------------ *Order RSF Books | Unsubscribe | Privacy Policy | Contact Us Russell Sage Foundation | 112 East 64th Street, New York, NY 10065 | (212) 750-6000* Update Profile / Unsubscribe From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Dec 15 11:28:01 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 11:28:01 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed Message-ID: <5852eedd.17df620a.e0dd.b637@mx.google.com> The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the article. Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that Gordon Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan and coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech AND in addition language as *a medium in which those above activities are SYMBOLICALLY REPRESENTED, providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated ideal mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech. This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual physical discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority given to the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge moment within the dual nature of language as both external and interior. Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all the way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon Wells is exploring. My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman article on the priority of the (intermental) For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells (The complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994) Loose threads being picked up Sent from my Windows 10 phone From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Dec 15 12:05:37 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 12:05:37 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed In-Reply-To: <5852eedd.17df620a.e0dd.b637@mx.google.com> References: <5852eedd.17df620a.e0dd.b637@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Those are all relevant questions, Larry. I have forwarded your msg to Galina in hopes that she will have time to respond for herself. It seems relevant, as you suggest, to send along Gordon's paper. The issue of the complementarity/relationship of Vygotsky & Halliday is a clear thread in this discourse and a preoccupation with some of us. Fine tapestry to be sewn there. :-) mike On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM, wrote: > The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the article. > > Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical > activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that Gordon > Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH > *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan and > coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech > > AND in addition language as > *a medium in which those above activities are SYMBOLICALLY REPRESENTED, > providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated ideal > mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech. > > This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual physical > discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority given to > the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge moment within > the dual nature of language as both external and interior. > > Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all the > way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon Wells is > exploring. > My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman article on > the priority of the (intermental) > > For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells (The > complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based > Theory of Learning, 1994) > Loose threads being picked up > > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Dec 15 12:20:26 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 12:20:26 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] The Measure of a Man Message-ID: Hi Helena -- I have started to watch the movie you recommended for thinking about neoliberalism and related issues. It is VERYwell made but it is so painful that I can only bring myself to watch it in small doses. From the very opening discussion with the bureaucrat about the logic of him losing his job and the dead end of retraining for non-existent jobs is excruciating. And then it gets worse when he starts getting bad financial advice, and then you learn this is a working class guy with a family who are each sturdy, decent people with difficult lives in good times..... and then you see the trailer house they live in and have to sell........ and its painful. But so far, its a 10 for quality and dramatic, intellectual value. Its there on Netflix for me. Are there people who cannot access it anywhere? It raises so many valuable issues. Just right for the Xmas holidays, to balance the multiple showings of "Its a wonderful life." mike From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Dec 15 12:56:23 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 12:56:23 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed In-Reply-To: References: <5852eedd.17df620a.e0dd.b637@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Here is the Gordon Wells article. On page 46 Wells says that Vygotsky takes external physical language use and in addition this language tool provides a medium in which those external activities are *symbolically represented* On page 48 Wells quotes Halliday to say : "it would be nearer the point to say that language *actively symbolizes* the social system representing *metaphorically *in its patterns of variation, the variation that characterizes human cultures .... It is this same twofold function of the linguistic system, its function both as *expression* of and *metaphor for* social processes, that lies behind thedynamics of the interrelation of language and social context..." The Zukerman article focuses on *intermental* dialogical processes. Hope to keep this tapestry weaving ongoing in the slow reading lane :- } to help with my apprenticeship On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 12:05 PM, mike cole wrote: > Those are all relevant questions, Larry. I have forwarded your msg to > Galina in hopes that she will have time to respond for herself. > > It seems relevant, as you suggest, to send along Gordon's paper. The issue > of the complementarity/relationship of Vygotsky & Halliday is a clear > thread in this discourse and a preoccupation with some of us. > Fine tapestry to be sewn there. :-) > mike > > > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM, wrote: > > > The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the > article. > > > > Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical > > activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that Gordon > > Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH > > *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan and > > coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech > > > > AND in addition language as > > *a medium in which those above activities are SYMBOLICALLY REPRESENTED, > > providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated ideal > > mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech. > > > > This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual physical > > discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority given > to > > the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge moment > within > > the dual nature of language as both external and interior. > > > > Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all the > > way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon Wells > is > > exploring. > > My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman article > on > > the priority of the (intermental) > > > > For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells (The > > complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based > > Theory of Learning, 1994) > > Loose threads being picked up > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DECEMBER 14 2016 WELLS GORDON XMCA Halliday and Vygotsky Contributions to a Language Based Theory of Learning .pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 3984276 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161215/c9577800/attachment-0001.pdf From helenaworthen@gmail.com Thu Dec 15 13:34:39 2016 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:34:39 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Measure of a Man In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Mike - Thanks for being brave and taking a look at this film. Because this is a fiction film, rather than a documentary, we can assume that the writers/director chose to show us what we see. At the beginning of the film the main character and his friends have just been laid off from some manufacturing job. He is a skilled machinist. They had a union and are considering suing the company for faking a bankruptcy, but our main character is exhausted and doesn?t have the will to proceed with the fight. He?s got some things going for him: he's a middle aged white male, married, with no serious health problems. And he?s in France, where compared to the US there is still a certain level of social welfare benefits. I think it is a useful touchstone for people on xmca to look at because it shows how totalizing the neoliberal agenda is. This is what life looks like when everything is for sale. It doesn?t affect just one aspect of life, like education, employment, housing, healthcare, government or transportation. It takes on a different face in each of these. The underlying rule of everything being for sale distorts each of these differently. Would this guy vote for Trump? Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com Berkeley, CA 94707 Blog about US and Viet Nam: helenaworthen.wordpress.com > On Dec 15, 2016, at 12:20 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Hi Helena -- > > I have started to watch the movie you recommended for thinking about > neoliberalism and related > issues. It is VERYwell made but it is so painful that I can only bring > myself to watch it in small > doses. From the very opening discussion with the bureaucrat about the logic > of him losing his job and the dead end of retraining for non-existent jobs > is excruciating. And then it gets worse when he starts getting bad > financial advice, and then you learn this is a working class guy with a > family who are each sturdy, decent people with difficult lives in good > times..... and then you see the trailer house they live in and have to > sell........ and its painful. > > But so far, its a 10 for quality and dramatic, intellectual value. > > Its there on Netflix for me. Are there people who cannot access it > anywhere? It raises so many > valuable issues. > > Just right for the Xmas holidays, to balance the multiple showings of "Its > a wonderful life." > > mike From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Dec 15 13:47:55 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 21:47:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed In-Reply-To: References: <5852eedd.17df620a.e0dd.b637@mx.google.com> Message-ID: By contrast Ilyenkov may be consulted regarding the traps of putting language first (reducing Vygotsky to language), which is pertinent to the school of notation etc. https://www.marxists.org/archive/ilyenkov/works/activity/index.htm Best, Huw On 15 December 2016 at 20:56, Larry Purss wrote: > Here is the Gordon Wells article. > > On page 46 Wells says that Vygotsky takes external physical language use > and in addition this language tool provides a medium in which those > external activities are *symbolically represented* > > On page 48 Wells quotes Halliday to say : "it would be nearer the point to > say that language *actively symbolizes* the social system representing > *metaphorically > *in its patterns of variation, the variation that characterizes human > cultures .... It is this same twofold function of the linguistic system, > its function both as *expression* of and *metaphor for* social processes, > that lies behind thedynamics of the interrelation of language and social > context..." > > The Zukerman article focuses on *intermental* dialogical processes. > Hope to keep this tapestry weaving ongoing in the slow reading lane :- } to > help with my apprenticeship > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 12:05 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Those are all relevant questions, Larry. I have forwarded your msg to > > Galina in hopes that she will have time to respond for herself. > > > > It seems relevant, as you suggest, to send along Gordon's paper. The > issue > > of the complementarity/relationship of Vygotsky & Halliday is a clear > > thread in this discourse and a preoccupation with some of us. > > Fine tapestry to be sewn there. :-) > > mike > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM, wrote: > > > > > The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems > to > > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > > interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the > > article. > > > > > > Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical > > > activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that Gordon > > > Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH > > > *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan and > > > coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech > > > > > > AND in addition language as > > > *a medium in which those above activities are SYMBOLICALLY > REPRESENTED, > > > providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated > ideal > > > mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech. > > > > > > This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual physical > > > discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority > given > > to > > > the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge moment > > within > > > the dual nature of language as both external and interior. > > > > > > Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all the > > > way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon Wells > > is > > > exploring. > > > My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman article > > on > > > the priority of the (intermental) > > > > > > For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells (The > > > complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language > Based > > > Theory of Learning, 1994) > > > Loose threads being picked up > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Dec 15 19:50:01 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 19:50:01 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Measure of a Man In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58536487.5d71630a.f0a6c.354e@mx.google.com> It does not seem to be on the Canadian netflix site. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: mike cole Sent: December 15, 2016 12:23 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] The Measure of a Man Hi Helena -- I have started to watch the movie you recommended for thinking about neoliberalism and related issues. It is VERYwell made but it is so painful that I can only bring myself to watch it in small doses. From the very opening discussion with the bureaucrat about the logic of him losing his job and the dead end of retraining for non-existent jobs is excruciating. And then it gets worse when he starts getting bad financial advice, and then you learn this is a working class guy with a family who are each sturdy, decent people with difficult lives in good times..... and then you see the trailer house they live in and have to sell........ and its painful. But so far, its a 10 for quality and dramatic, intellectual value. Its there on Netflix for me. Are there people who cannot access it anywhere? It raises so many valuable issues. Just right for the Xmas holidays, to balance the multiple showings of "Its a wonderful life." mike From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Dec 16 10:31:22 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 10:31:22 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Language Minority Students and Their Teachers In-Reply-To: <0100015908b6e59b-0b2c14e2-3eb4-459d-8ec2-ae5f36de17af-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <0100015908b6e59b-0b2c14e2-3eb4-459d-8ec2-ae5f36de17af-000000@email.amazonses.com> Message-ID: ?Dear Colleagues The lead article here makes a point that gets routinely overlooked in studies linking social class and school performance, in particular THE QUALITY OF INSTRUCTION. worth a look for those of you who are interested in such matters.I include only the final paragraph of a long, data filled article. mike mike? In light of the striking differences found between LM and non-LM students and their teachers, it is not surprising that LM students lag behind in school. The odds appear to be stacked against LM students on multiple levels. On top of their need to acquire English-language skills, LM students have to contend with disadvantages associated with low SES, living in urban settings, as well as having low-quality teachers who feel inadequately trained, and this limits their chances of school success. While educators and policymakers are unable to eradicate household and neighborhood poverty, there are a number of factors that are within their control, particularly teacher development and school quality, that would promote LM student achievement. In particular, teacher quality has received a great deal of attention recently in both the research and policy arenas, and it is important to ensure that the specific needs of LM students are not neglected. The findings that low-SES LM students face more disadvantages than their non-LM peers at home and in school, including unequal distribution of quality teachers, establishes a rationale for both more research and policies that can improve LM student outcomes. The common finding that LM students demonstrate academic underperformance is not surprising given the dire circumstances that they face with underprepared teachers; however, if educators are armed with the necessary knowledge and supports to provide LM students with a whole range of options for success, there is hope of helping them to reach academic and life milestones as fluent English or bilingual speakers, readers, and writers. : Teachers College Record Date: Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 9:38 AM Subject: Language Minority Students and Their Teachers To: Recipient [image: Title] [image: Subscribe Today] [image: transparent 13] Freely-Available This Week Articles Disadvantaged Language Minority Students and Their Teachers: A National Picture by Jennifer F. Samson & Nonie K. Lesaux Using data drawn from the Early Childhood Longitudinal Study-Kindergarten Cohort 1998-99, this study reports on differences between language minority (LM) and non-language minority students in their home backgrounds and their teachers' characteristics in kindergarten, first-, third-, and fifth- grade, generating a comprehensive national picture of the multiple disadvantages that LM students face in schools. A Randomized Controlled Trial of Professional Development for Interdisciplinary Civic Education: Impacts on Humanities Teachers and Their Students by Dennis J. Barr, Beth Boulay, Robert L. Selman, Rachel McCormick, Ethan Lowenstein, Beth Gamse, Melinda Fine & M. Brielle Leonard This article reports on a randomized controlled experiment examining the impact of a professional development intervention that helps teachers foster students' historical thinking skills, social and ethical reflection, and civic learning. Book Reviews Resisting Reform: Reclaiming Public Education through Grassroots Activism by Kjersti VanSlyke-Briggs, Elizabeth Bloom, and Danielle Boudet (Eds.) reviewed by Barbara Cozza ------------------------------ Understanding Life in School: From Academic Classroom to Outdoor Education by John Quay reviewed by Susan Engel ------------------------------ Untangling Urban Middle School Reform: Clashing Agendas for Literacy Standards and Student Success by Cynthia D. Urbanski reviewed by Penny B. Howell, Margaret Rintamaa & Jean Wolph ------------------------------ Leading Schools in Challenging Times: Eye to the Future by Bruce A. Jones & Anthony Rolle reviewed by David Edward DeMatthews & Becca Gregory ------------------------------ Child Advocacy and Early Childhood Education Policies in the Caribbean by Ilene R. Berson & Michael J. Berson (Eds.) reviewed by Saran Stewart Commentaries Causal Inference in State Accountability Plans: The Need for Best Practices by Anne Corinne Huggins-Manley, Sophie Cohn & Tiffany L. Fisher The purpose of this commentary is to present a systematic framework for comparing the standards for drawing causal inferences in educational research to the lack of standards for drawing causal inferences under state accountability plans. We aim to demonstrate that this framework encompasses many of the vast critiques of previous educational state accountability plans for estimating school and teacher effects on achievement, and hence offers a path to improvement for state accountability plans currently being developed under the Every Student Succeeds Act (ESSA). Education researcher Shaun Harper discusses his co-authored article, Surprise, Sensemaking, and Success in the First College Year: Black Undergraduate Men's Academic Adjustment Experiences . Watch and discuss this episode of The Voice on Vialogues . Editorial TCR Yearbooks - Call for Proposals by Gary Natriello The editors of the Teachers College Record announce a call for proposals for future TCR Yearbooks. post a comment Follow us on Twitter: @TCRecord ------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this newsletter, please browse to: https://www.tcrecord.org/MyAccount.asp?uid=100293&pwd=1384520 From smago@uga.edu Sat Dec 17 13:53:55 2016 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 21:53:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Mike Cole uploaded a paper In-Reply-To: <010001590e83a3b0-52c3b632-1f7b-4fe7-b6af-49c9fedeeec4-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <010001590e83a3b0-52c3b632-1f7b-4fe7-b6af-49c9fedeeec4-000000@email.amazonses.com> Message-ID: Mike?s been uploading stuff to Academia, in case you would like to catch up on his oeuvre. p From: Academia.edu [mailto:noreply@academia-mail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2016 3:40 PM To: Peter Smagorinsky Subject: Mike Cole uploaded a paper [Academia.edu] Mike Cole just uploaded a paper: [Mike Cole] Mike Cole University of California, San Diego, Communication, Emeritus Dialogues with Alexander Luria.doc VIEW PAPER P.S. A study recently published in PLOS ONE found that papers uploaded to Academia.edu receive a 69% boost in citations over 5 years. See the study and data here. Academia, 251 Kearny St., Suite 520, San Francisco, CA, 94108 Unsubscribe Privacy Policy Terms of Service ? 2016 Academia From hernandez.saca@gmail.com Sat Dec 17 14:13:39 2016 From: hernandez.saca@gmail.com (David Hernandez) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 16:13:39 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Mike Cole uploaded a paper In-Reply-To: References: <010001590e83a3b0-52c3b632-1f7b-4fe7-b6af-49c9fedeeec4-000000@email.amazonses.com> Message-ID: <7359BC80-0EC7-4294-9A91-74713C4AB7AA@gmail.com> Thank you for letting us know, Peter! Best, D ---------------------------------- Sent from my iPhone Please excuse any typos > On Dec 17, 2016, at 3:53 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > Mike?s been uploading stuff to Academia, in case you would like to catch up on his oeuvre. p > > From: Academia.edu [mailto:noreply@academia-mail.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2016 3:40 PM > To: Peter Smagorinsky > Subject: Mike Cole uploaded a paper > > [Academia.edu] > > > > Mike Cole just uploaded a paper: > > > > [Mike Cole] > > Mike Cole > > University of California, San Diego, Communication, Emeritus > > > > > Dialogues with Alexander Luria.doc > > > > > VIEW PAPER > > > > > P.S. A study recently published in PLOS ONE found that papers uploaded to Academia.edu receive a 69% boost in citations over 5 years. See the study and data here. > > > > > Academia, 251 Kearny St., Suite 520, San Francisco, CA, 94108 > Unsubscribe Privacy Policy Terms of Service ? 2016 Academia > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Dec 17 15:13:08 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 15:13:08 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Mike Cole uploaded a paper In-Reply-To: <7359BC80-0EC7-4294-9A91-74713C4AB7AA@gmail.com> References: <010001590e83a3b0-52c3b632-1f7b-4fe7-b6af-49c9fedeeec4-000000@email.amazonses.com> <7359BC80-0EC7-4294-9A91-74713C4AB7AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Not sure what caught Peter's attention, but I was intending to send this link to XMCA: luria.ucsd.edu/DVD . It is a copy of the digital recording of a set of interviews with students and colleagues of Alexander Luria, made to accompany the release of the second edition of the English translation of his autobiography. The best know of the interviews is with Jerry Bruner and Oliver Sacks, but the other are interesting as well. Somewhere early in the publication process, the publisher's copy of the interviews was corrupted and I thought they were lost. Recently I found them in some old LCHC files. mike PS-- Academia has a good deal of interesting materials by scholars familiar to, or participating in, xmca. On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 2:13 PM, David Hernandez wrote: > Thank you for letting us know, Peter! Best, D > ---------------------------------- > Sent from my iPhone > Please excuse any typos > > > On Dec 17, 2016, at 3:53 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > > Mike?s been uploading stuff to Academia, in case you would like to catch > up on his oeuvre. p > > > > From: Academia.edu [mailto:noreply@academia-mail.com] > > Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2016 3:40 PM > > To: Peter Smagorinsky > > Subject: Mike Cole uploaded a paper > > > > [Academia.edu] > > > > > > > > Mike Cole just uploaded a paper: > > > > > > > > [Mike Cole]< > https://ucsd.academia.edu/t/5vA-Lh7BYtu-bu484/MikeCole> academia.edu/t/5vA-Lh7BYtu-bu484/MikeCole> > > > > Mike Cole > > > > University of California, San Diego edu/t/5vA-Lh7BYtu-bu484/>, Communication academia.edu/t/5vA-Lh7BYtu-bu484/Departments/Communication/Documents>, > Emeritus > > > > > > > > Dialogues_with_Alexander_Luria.doc> > > Dialogues with Alexander Luria.doc academia.edu/t/5vA-Lh7BYtu-bu484/30498595/Dialogues_with_ > Alexander_Luria.doc> > > > > > > > > > > VIEW PAPER 30498595/Dialogues_with_Alexander_Luria.doc> > > > > > > > > > > P.S. A study recently published in PLOS ONE found that papers uploaded > to Academia.edu receive a 69% boost in citations over 5 years. See the > study and data here Discoverability_Citations_to_Articles_Posted_to_Academia.edu>. > > > > > > > > > > Academia, 251 Kearny St., Suite 520, San Francisco, CA, 94108 > > Unsubscribe emJpWTFRMnpSUGYyL2dmRE5RUTdnM3hxWGg5eUxJNlVsQVBkZmR1WmY0ND0t > LVNuY1V3eUtCZGNXbE5lbXNlOTZUcEE9PQ==--301a2eee5c9a14a1a2c633dd8903ab > ac126a0491/t/5vA-Lh7BYtu-bu484/settings?a=email-notifications> Privacy > Policy Terms of > Service ? 2016 > Academia > > > > > > > > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Dec 18 07:01:39 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 07:01:39 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Luria rememberance interviews Message-ID: Peter alters me to the fact that I gave an incorrect address for the video of the interviews about Luria. The correct address is luria.ucsd.edu/DVD. Apologies Thanks for the correction, Peter mike From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Sun Dec 18 10:58:08 2016 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 13:58:08 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] John Shotter Message-ID: <22B23273-9BA1-4018-B59E-18476CE8AACB@eastsideinstitute.org> I wanted those here to know that John Shotter passed away a few weeks ago after a long illness. He was a lovely and brilliant person and a friend of mine and other XMCA-ers. You can click here for a bit about and from John. Lois Lois Holzman Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy 119 West 23 St, suite 902 New York, NY 10011 Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 Fax +1.718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Social Media Facebook? | LinkedIn | Twitter Blogs Psychology Today | Psychology of Becoming | Mad in America Websites Lois Holzman | East Side?Institute | Performing the World All Stars Project From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Dec 18 11:43:52 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 11:43:52 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter In-Reply-To: <22B23273-9BA1-4018-B59E-18476CE8AACB@eastsideinstitute.org> References: <22B23273-9BA1-4018-B59E-18476CE8AACB@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: That is very sad news, Lois. John was a marvelous and modest scholar from whom we did and could learn a lot. There are some 480 entries of discussion involving John and his work accesible via lchc.ucsd.edu if you use the google search and Shotter as the search word. My eye fell on a paper by John about Wittgenstein and Vygotsky that made me think of Larry's meditations and concerns. Might someone curate those documents which seem to complement those available at John's website? It would be a gift to the group for sure: http://www.johnshotter.com/john-shotter-papers/ Darn mike On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Lois Holzman < lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > I wanted those here to know that John Shotter passed away a few weeks ago > after a long illness. He was a lovely and brilliant person and a friend of > mine and other XMCA-ers. You can click here 12/john-shotter-relational-becomings/> for a bit about and from John. > Lois > > Lois Holzman > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > 119 West 23 St, suite 902 > New York, NY 10011 > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > Social Media > Facebook | LinkedIn %20linkedin.com/pub/lois-holzman> | Twitter LoisHolzman> > Blogs > Psychology Today com/blog/conceptual-revolution>| Psychology of Becoming < > http://loisholzman.org/> | Mad in America author/lois/> > Websites > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute < > http://eastsideinstitute.org/> | Performing the World performingtheworld.org/> > All Stars Project > > > > From leifstrandberg.ab@telia.com Sun Dec 18 11:44:17 2016 From: leifstrandberg.ab@telia.com (Leif Strandberg) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 20:44:17 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter In-Reply-To: <22B23273-9BA1-4018-B59E-18476CE8AACB@eastsideinstitute.org> References: <22B23273-9BA1-4018-B59E-18476CE8AACB@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: <7DC8613F-952D-4CB7-B445-3CFB9D464DE9@telia.com> Lois, thanks for letting us know that John Shotter has passed away. It was thanks to you and your colleagues I started to read John Shotter in your book, Postmodern Psychologies from 2000. I loved his article on Wittgenstein, Voloshinov and Bakhtin. So thank John Shotter for your brilliant work, and once more, thank you Lois for telling us. Leif Strandberg Sweden 18 dec 2016 kl. 19:58 skrev Lois Holzman : > I wanted those here to know that John Shotter passed away a few weeks ago after a long illness. He was a lovely and brilliant person and a friend of mine and other XMCA-ers. You can click here for a bit about and from John. > Lois > > Lois Holzman > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > 119 West 23 St, suite 902 > New York, NY 10011 > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > Social Media > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > Blogs > Psychology Today | Psychology of Becoming | Mad in America > Websites > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > All Stars Project > > > From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Sun Dec 18 12:06:11 2016 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 15:06:11 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter In-Reply-To: References: <22B23273-9BA1-4018-B59E-18476CE8AACB@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: <3F34C2EA-92D7-47CF-ACF1-C3EFC7D1A609@eastsideinstitute.org> Thanks, Mike. I?ll definitely review those entries. For those interested, there are videos of John and others at a day event entitled ?Performing John Shotter: A Celebration of John shorter and his Work " at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3MzPGndE8 Lois Lois Holzman Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy 119 West 23 St, suite 902 New York, NY 10011 Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 Fax +1.718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Social Media Facebook? | LinkedIn | Twitter Blogs Psychology Today | Psychology of Becoming | Mad in America Websites Lois Holzman | East Side?Institute | Performing the World All Stars Project > On Dec 18, 2016, at 2:43 PM, mike cole wrote: > > That is very sad news, Lois. > John was a marvelous and modest scholar from whom we did and could > learn a lot. > > There are some 480 entries of discussion involving John and his work > accesible via lchc.ucsd.edu if you use the google search and Shotter as the > search word. My eye fell on a paper by John about Wittgenstein and Vygotsky > that made me think of Larry's meditations and concerns. > > Might someone curate those documents which seem to complement those > available at John's website? It would be a gift to the group for sure: > > http://www.johnshotter.com/john-shotter-papers/ > > Darn > mike > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Lois Holzman < > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > >> I wanted those here to know that John Shotter passed away a few weeks ago >> after a long illness. He was a lovely and brilliant person and a friend of >> mine and other XMCA-ers. You can click here > 12/john-shotter-relational-becomings/> for a bit about and from John. >> Lois >> >> Lois Holzman >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >> 119 West 23 St, suite 902 >> New York, NY 10011 >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >> Social Media >> Facebook | LinkedIn > %20linkedin.com/pub/lois-holzman> | Twitter > LoisHolzman> >> Blogs >> Psychology Today > com/blog/conceptual-revolution>| Psychology of Becoming < >> http://loisholzman.org/> | Mad in America > author/lois/> >> Websites >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute < >> http://eastsideinstitute.org/> | Performing the World > performingtheworld.org/> >> All Stars Project >> >> >> >> From bferholt@gmail.com Sun Dec 18 12:40:22 2016 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 15:40:22 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter In-Reply-To: <3F34C2EA-92D7-47CF-ACF1-C3EFC7D1A609@eastsideinstitute.org> References: <22B23273-9BA1-4018-B59E-18476CE8AACB@eastsideinstitute.org> <3F34C2EA-92D7-47CF-ACF1-C3EFC7D1A609@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: Thank you for this email, Lois. John was my teacher in several classes when I was 18 years old at Swarthmore college. After ten years as a preschool teacher I contacted him and told him my muddled ideas about children teaching adults through play, in relation to Vygotsky's work, and he said: "Go and think about these things with Mike Cole at LCHC!" John raised many people into academics, I think, and I still remember his interest when I shaved my head: "Ah -- when you change your haircut at 18, it must mean something!" I do not think many people could have helped me to have been both a preschool teacher and an academic in one lifetime. I will miss him very much. Beth On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Lois Holzman < lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > Thanks, Mike. I?ll definitely review those entries. > For those interested, there are videos of John and others at a day event > entitled ?Performing John Shotter: A Celebration of John shorter and his > Work " at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3MzPGndE8 < > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3MzPGndE8> > Lois > > > Lois Holzman > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > 119 West 23 St, suite 902 > New York, NY 10011 > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > Social Media > Facebook | LinkedIn %20linkedin.com/pub/lois-holzman> | Twitter LoisHolzman> > Blogs > Psychology Today com/blog/conceptual-revolution>| Psychology of Becoming < > http://loisholzman.org/> | Mad in America author/lois/> > Websites > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute < > http://eastsideinstitute.org/> | Performing the World performingtheworld.org/> > All Stars Project > > > > > On Dec 18, 2016, at 2:43 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > That is very sad news, Lois. > > John was a marvelous and modest scholar from whom we did and could > > learn a lot. > > > > There are some 480 entries of discussion involving John and his work > > accesible via lchc.ucsd.edu if you use the google search and Shotter as > the > > search word. My eye fell on a paper by John about Wittgenstein and > Vygotsky > > that made me think of Larry's meditations and concerns. > > > > Might someone curate those documents which seem to complement those > > available at John's website? It would be a gift to the group for sure: > > > > http://www.johnshotter.com/john-shotter-papers/ > > > > Darn > > mike > > > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Lois Holzman < > > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > > > >> I wanted those here to know that John Shotter passed away a few weeks > ago > >> after a long illness. He was a lovely and brilliant person and a friend > of > >> mine and other XMCA-ers. You can click here < > http://loisholzman.org/2016/ > >> 12/john-shotter-relational-becomings/> for a bit about and from John. > >> Lois > >> > >> Lois Holzman > >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > >> 119 West 23 St, suite 902 > >> New York, NY 10011 > >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > >> Social Media > >> Facebook | LinkedIn < > http://www. > >> %20linkedin.com/pub/lois-holzman> | Twitter >> LoisHolzman> > >> Blogs > >> Psychology Today >> com/blog/conceptual-revolution>| Psychology of Becoming < > >> http://loisholzman.org/> | Mad in America >> author/lois/> > >> Websites > >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute < > >> http://eastsideinstitute.org/> | Performing the World >> performingtheworld.org/> > >> All Stars Project > >> > >> > >> > >> > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Dec 18 13:36:54 2016 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 21:36:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter Message-ID: Back in 1975 or 76, as best as I can recall, I was working as a research assistant with Brian Foss at Bedford College, University of London. Someone overly trusting put me, wet behind the ears, in charge of the weekly invited speaker series. I had come across some of John Shotter?s writing, so I wrote him a letter, or phoned him (no email in those days), and invited him to visit. He bought a day return rail ticket from Nottingham to London, called the Shopper Special, and gave a delightful talk. We agreed to rename the ticket the Shotter Special. I?ve followed, and learned from, his work ever since. Martin From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Dec 18 14:50:25 2016 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 22:50:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter Message-ID: Back in 1975 or 76, as best as I can recall, I was working as a research assistant with Brian Foss at Bedford College, University of London. Someone overly trusting put me, wet behind the ears, in charge of the weekly invited speaker series. I had come across some of John Shotter?s writing, so I wrote him a letter, or phoned him (no email in those days), and invited him to visit. He bought a day return rail ticket from Nottingham to London, called the Shopper Special, and gave a delightful talk. We agreed to rename the ticket the Shotter Special. I?ve followed, and learned from, his work ever since. Martin From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Sun Dec 18 21:03:11 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 05:03:11 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter In-Reply-To: References: <22B23273-9BA1-4018-B59E-18476CE8AACB@eastsideinstitute.org> <3F34C2EA-92D7-47CF-ACF1-C3EFC7D1A609@eastsideinstitute.org>, Message-ID: <1482123790380.26460@iped.uio.no> Thanks for sharing the news, and the memories; Mike, I'll try to follow up on your suggestion regarding John's entries. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Beth Ferholt Sent: 18 December 2016 21:40 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter Thank you for this email, Lois. John was my teacher in several classes when I was 18 years old at Swarthmore college. After ten years as a preschool teacher I contacted him and told him my muddled ideas about children teaching adults through play, in relation to Vygotsky's work, and he said: "Go and think about these things with Mike Cole at LCHC!" John raised many people into academics, I think, and I still remember his interest when I shaved my head: "Ah -- when you change your haircut at 18, it must mean something!" I do not think many people could have helped me to have been both a preschool teacher and an academic in one lifetime. I will miss him very much. Beth On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Lois Holzman < lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > Thanks, Mike. I?ll definitely review those entries. > For those interested, there are videos of John and others at a day event > entitled ?Performing John Shotter: A Celebration of John shorter and his > Work " at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3MzPGndE8 < > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3MzPGndE8> > Lois > > > Lois Holzman > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > 119 West 23 St, suite 902 > New York, NY 10011 > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > Social Media > Facebook | LinkedIn %20linkedin.com/pub/lois-holzman> | Twitter LoisHolzman> > Blogs > Psychology Today com/blog/conceptual-revolution>| Psychology of Becoming < > http://loisholzman.org/> | Mad in America author/lois/> > Websites > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute < > http://eastsideinstitute.org/> | Performing the World performingtheworld.org/> > All Stars Project > > > > > On Dec 18, 2016, at 2:43 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > That is very sad news, Lois. > > John was a marvelous and modest scholar from whom we did and could > > learn a lot. > > > > There are some 480 entries of discussion involving John and his work > > accesible via lchc.ucsd.edu if you use the google search and Shotter as > the > > search word. My eye fell on a paper by John about Wittgenstein and > Vygotsky > > that made me think of Larry's meditations and concerns. > > > > Might someone curate those documents which seem to complement those > > available at John's website? It would be a gift to the group for sure: > > > > http://www.johnshotter.com/john-shotter-papers/ > > > > Darn > > mike > > > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Lois Holzman < > > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > > > >> I wanted those here to know that John Shotter passed away a few weeks > ago > >> after a long illness. He was a lovely and brilliant person and a friend > of > >> mine and other XMCA-ers. You can click here < > http://loisholzman.org/2016/ > >> 12/john-shotter-relational-becomings/> for a bit about and from John. > >> Lois > >> > >> Lois Holzman > >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > >> 119 West 23 St, suite 902 > >> New York, NY 10011 > >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > >> Social Media > >> Facebook | LinkedIn < > http://www. > >> %20linkedin.com/pub/lois-holzman> | Twitter >> LoisHolzman> > >> Blogs > >> Psychology Today >> com/blog/conceptual-revolution>| Psychology of Becoming < > >> http://loisholzman.org/> | Mad in America >> author/lois/> > >> Websites > >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute < > >> http://eastsideinstitute.org/> | Performing the World >> performingtheworld.org/> > >> All Stars Project > >> > >> > >> > >> > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From bealigorio@hotmail.com Mon Dec 19 01:10:41 2016 From: bealigorio@hotmail.com (Beatrice Ligorio) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 09:10:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter In-Reply-To: <1482123790380.26460@iped.uio.no> References: <22B23273-9BA1-4018-B59E-18476CE8AACB@eastsideinstitute.org> <3F34C2EA-92D7-47CF-ACF1-C3EFC7D1A609@eastsideinstitute.org>, , <1482123790380.26460@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Hi all, in 2009 on Qwerty there an interesting paper authored by Shotter. It is freely downloadable. You may be interested on it http://www.ckbg.org/qwerty/index.php/qwerty/article/view/45 Qwerty - Open and Interdisciplinary Journal of Technology ... www.ckbg.org This paper explores the move away from the idea of speech communication as a process of information transmission, and explores instead the role of the spontaneous ... Bea ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 5:03 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter Thanks for sharing the news, and the memories; Mike, I'll try to follow up on your suggestion regarding John's entries. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Beth Ferholt Sent: 18 December 2016 21:40 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter Thank you for this email, Lois. John was my teacher in several classes when I was 18 years old at Swarthmore college. After ten years as a preschool teacher I contacted him and told him my muddled ideas about children teaching adults through play, in relation to Vygotsky's work, and he said: "Go and think about these things with Mike Cole at LCHC!" John raised many people into academics, I think, and I still remember his interest when I shaved my head: "Ah -- when you change your haircut at 18, it must mean something!" I do not think many people could have helped me to have been both a preschool teacher and an academic in one lifetime. I will miss him very much. Beth On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Lois Holzman < lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > Thanks, Mike. I?ll definitely review those entries. > For those interested, there are videos of John and others at a day event > entitled ?Performing John Shotter: A Celebration of John shorter and his > Work " at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3MzPGndE8 < [https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.Vf31c332b576c88c83471344458a04d32&pid=Api] Performing John Shotter: A Celebration of John Shotter and ... www.youtube.com 8/10/2016 A day celebrating the brilliant creativity and observational gifts of John Shotter which have been and is so influential of systemic and dialogical... > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3MzPGndE8> [https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.Vf31c332b576c88c83471344458a04d32&pid=Api] Performing John Shotter: A Celebration of John Shotter and ... www.youtube.com 8/10/2016 A day celebrating the brilliant creativity and observational gifts of John Shotter which have been and is so influential of systemic and dialogical... > Lois > > > Lois Holzman > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > 119 West 23 St, suite 902 > New York, NY 10011 > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > Social Media > Facebook | LinkedIn Lois Holzman | Facebook www.facebook.com Lois Holzman is on Facebook. Join Facebook to connect with Lois Holzman and others you may know. Facebook gives people the power to share and makes the... > %20linkedin.com/pub/lois-holzman> | Twitter LoisHolzman> > Blogs > Psychology Today com/blog/conceptual-revolution>| Psychology of Becoming < > http://loisholzman.org/> | Mad in America author/lois/> > Websites > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute < > http://eastsideinstitute.org/> | Performing the World performingtheworld.org/> > All Stars Project > > > > > On Dec 18, 2016, at 2:43 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > That is very sad news, Lois. > > John was a marvelous and modest scholar from whom we did and could > > learn a lot. > > > > There are some 480 entries of discussion involving John and his work > > accesible via lchc.ucsd.edu if you use the google search and Shotter as > the > > search word. My eye fell on a paper by John about Wittgenstein and > Vygotsky > > that made me think of Larry's meditations and concerns. > > > > Might someone curate those documents which seem to complement those > > available at John's website? It would be a gift to the group for sure: > > > > http://www.johnshotter.com/john-shotter-papers/ > > > > Darn > > mike > > > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Lois Holzman < > > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > > > >> I wanted those here to know that John Shotter passed away a few weeks > ago > >> after a long illness. He was a lovely and brilliant person and a friend > of > >> mine and other XMCA-ers. You can click here < > http://loisholzman.org/2016/ > >> 12/john-shotter-relational-becomings/> for a bit about and from John. > >> Lois > >> > >> Lois Holzman > >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > >> 119 West 23 St, suite 902 > >> New York, NY 10011 > >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > >> Social Media > >> Facebook | LinkedIn < > http://www. > >> %20linkedin.com/pub/lois-holzman> | Twitter >> LoisHolzman> > >> Blogs > >> Psychology Today >> com/blog/conceptual-revolution>| Psychology of Becoming < > >> http://loisholzman.org/> | Mad in America >> author/lois/> > >> Websites > >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute < > >> http://eastsideinstitute.org/> | Performing the World >> performingtheworld.org/> > >> All Stars Project > >> > >> > >> > >> > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Mon Dec 19 07:22:33 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 15:22:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter In-Reply-To: References: <22B23273-9BA1-4018-B59E-18476CE8AACB@eastsideinstitute.org> <3F34C2EA-92D7-47CF-ACF1-C3EFC7D1A609@eastsideinstitute.org>, , <1482123790380.26460@iped.uio.no>, Message-ID: <1482160954603.6452@iped.uio.no> Thanks so much, Beatrice! Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Beatrice Ligorio Sent: 19 December 2016 10:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter Hi all, in 2009 on Qwerty there an interesting paper authored by Shotter. It is freely downloadable. You may be interested on it http://www.ckbg.org/qwerty/index.php/qwerty/article/view/45 Qwerty - Open and Interdisciplinary Journal of Technology ... www.ckbg.org This paper explores the move away from the idea of speech communication as a process of information transmission, and explores instead the role of the spontaneous ... Bea ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 5:03 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter Thanks for sharing the news, and the memories; Mike, I'll try to follow up on your suggestion regarding John's entries. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Beth Ferholt Sent: 18 December 2016 21:40 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter Thank you for this email, Lois. John was my teacher in several classes when I was 18 years old at Swarthmore college. After ten years as a preschool teacher I contacted him and told him my muddled ideas about children teaching adults through play, in relation to Vygotsky's work, and he said: "Go and think about these things with Mike Cole at LCHC!" John raised many people into academics, I think, and I still remember his interest when I shaved my head: "Ah -- when you change your haircut at 18, it must mean something!" I do not think many people could have helped me to have been both a preschool teacher and an academic in one lifetime. I will miss him very much. Beth On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Lois Holzman < lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > Thanks, Mike. I?ll definitely review those entries. > For those interested, there are videos of John and others at a day event > entitled ?Performing John Shotter: A Celebration of John shorter and his > Work " at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3MzPGndE8 < [https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.Vf31c332b576c88c83471344458a04d32&pid=Api] Performing John Shotter: A Celebration of John Shotter and ... www.youtube.com 8/10/2016 A day celebrating the brilliant creativity and observational gifts of John Shotter which have been and is so influential of systemic and dialogical... > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3MzPGndE8> [https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.Vf31c332b576c88c83471344458a04d32&pid=Api] Performing John Shotter: A Celebration of John Shotter and ... www.youtube.com 8/10/2016 A day celebrating the brilliant creativity and observational gifts of John Shotter which have been and is so influential of systemic and dialogical... > Lois > > > Lois Holzman > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > 119 West 23 St, suite 902 > New York, NY 10011 > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > Social Media > Facebook | LinkedIn Lois Holzman | Facebook www.facebook.com Lois Holzman is on Facebook. Join Facebook to connect with Lois Holzman and others you may know. Facebook gives people the power to share and makes the... > %20linkedin.com/pub/lois-holzman> | Twitter LoisHolzman> > Blogs > Psychology Today com/blog/conceptual-revolution>| Psychology of Becoming < > http://loisholzman.org/> | Mad in America author/lois/> > Websites > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute < > http://eastsideinstitute.org/> | Performing the World performingtheworld.org/> > All Stars Project > > > > > On Dec 18, 2016, at 2:43 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > That is very sad news, Lois. > > John was a marvelous and modest scholar from whom we did and could > > learn a lot. > > > > There are some 480 entries of discussion involving John and his work > > accesible via lchc.ucsd.edu if you use the google search and Shotter as > the > > search word. My eye fell on a paper by John about Wittgenstein and > Vygotsky > > that made me think of Larry's meditations and concerns. > > > > Might someone curate those documents which seem to complement those > > available at John's website? It would be a gift to the group for sure: > > > > http://www.johnshotter.com/john-shotter-papers/ > > > > Darn > > mike > > > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Lois Holzman < > > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > > > >> I wanted those here to know that John Shotter passed away a few weeks > ago > >> after a long illness. He was a lovely and brilliant person and a friend > of > >> mine and other XMCA-ers. You can click here < > http://loisholzman.org/2016/ > >> 12/john-shotter-relational-becomings/> for a bit about and from John. > >> Lois > >> > >> Lois Holzman > >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > >> 119 West 23 St, suite 902 > >> New York, NY 10011 > >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > >> Social Media > >> Facebook | LinkedIn < > http://www. > >> %20linkedin.com/pub/lois-holzman> | Twitter >> LoisHolzman> > >> Blogs > >> Psychology Today >> com/blog/conceptual-revolution>| Psychology of Becoming < > >> http://loisholzman.org/> | Mad in America >> author/lois/> > >> Websites > >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute < > >> http://eastsideinstitute.org/> | Performing the World >> performingtheworld.org/> > >> All Stars Project > >> > >> > >> > >> > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Dec 19 08:48:52 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 08:48:52 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Zukerman resumed In-Reply-To: References: <5852eedd.17df620a.e0dd.b637@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Dear Colleagues-- Here is a response to Larry's note of a few days ago from Galina Zuckerman. I will send along a copy of the Gordon's paper. Original message below. mike ---------------- I am extremely grateful to you and your colleagues for talking about interpsychic action. This is a difficult conversation, so let us move slowly. Today, I will answer only one fragment of the note from that wonderful co-conversationalist (I do not dare call him simply by the name of Larry - it's too familiar for Russian-speaking people). "The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own interiorized mental activity." Yes! Yes!!! However, is there any sense in raising the question of what is more important - interpsychic or intra-psychic? What's more important for walking - movement of the left or right foot? Those cultural means which I have already mastered are the primary conditions to enter the new interpsychic space that was closed to me before I have mastered a new cultural means... Also, there is no point in the question of what comes first - interpsychic or intrapsychic. In order to join the interpsychic action to meet a partner, I should have some margin of autonomy, initiative ... The Mobius strip is the best symbol of the relationship of INTER and INTRA in the development process, in which there is always a moment of SELF-development. I'm afraid to say more because I have not read neither the latest work of Gordon Wells' work, nor his work "The complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994." If you can send me a text, please do !!! I owe so much to this talented author; His book Dialogic inquiry opened for me new ways of research. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Galina Zuckerman Date: 2016-12-19 4:55 GMT-08:00 Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed To: mike cole ??????? ????! ? ??????????? ?????????? ??? ? ????? ???????? ?? ???????? ?? ???????????????? ????????. ??? ??????? ????????, ??????? ??????? ????????? ???????????. ??????? ? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ?????????????? ??????????? (?? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? Larry ? ??? ?????????????? ???????? ??? ??????? ??????????). The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own interiorized mental activity. ??! ??!!! ?????? ???? ?? ????? ? ?????????? ??????? ? ???, ??? ?????? ? ???????????????? ??? ????????????????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ? ???????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?????????? ????????, ??????? ? ??? ???????, ??? ? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ? ????? ???????????????? ????????????, ??????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????, ??? ? ??????? ????? ?????????? ????????? ????? ??? ?????? ? ??????? ? ???, ??? ???????? - ???????????????? ??? ????????????????. ??? ???? ????? ?????????????? ? ????????????????? ????????, ????? ??????????? ? ?????????, ? ?????? ???????? ?????-?? ??????? ?????????????????, ??????????????? ????? ??????? ? ?????? ?????? ????????? ????? ? ????? ? ???????? ????????, ? ??????? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ????????????. ????? ????????? ??????, ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ????????? ????? ??????? ??????, ?? ??? ?????? The complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994. ???? ?????, ???????? ??? ?????, ??????????!!! ? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???????????? ??????; ??? ????? *Dialogic* *inquiry* ??????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????????????. ?? ????, ?????? ??? ??????? ?????????? ??????????, ?? ?? ???? ?? ????????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????????? (??. ??????????). ????? ??????-?????? ???????! ???? ???????? On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:48 PM, mike cole wrote: > Dear Galina -- This is a serious response to your work and it would be > great if you could find time to respond, at least the first part where Larry > tries to summarize your view of the intermental. He is trying to be > helpful and build on what people are writing, and some help from you would > move the whole discussion along. We will worry about translation at this > end...... > > Bud' zdorova > > mike > > > mike > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: > Date: Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the article. > > Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical > activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that Gordon > Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH > *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan and > coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech > > AND in addition language as > *a medium in which those above activities are SYMBOLICALLY REPRESENTED, > providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated ideal > mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech. > > This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual physical > discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority given to > the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge moment within > the dual nature of language as both external and interior. > > Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all the > way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon Wells is > exploring. > My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman article on > the priority of the (intermental) > > For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells (The > complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based > Theory of Learning, 1994) > Loose threads being picked up > > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: kip_3_2016_elkonin.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 141834 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161219/d3b2638d/attachment.pdf From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Mon Dec 19 11:42:29 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 19:42:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Zukerman resumed In-Reply-To: References: <5852eedd.17df620a.e0dd.b637@mx.google.com> , Message-ID: <1482176550740.26385@iped.uio.no> Oh, I am so glad that this conversation is going on! Thanks Larry for your sustained effort to keep it going, to Mike for bringing the author in, and to professor Zuckerman for being so generous to join us. For those of you who, like me, had to go and do a search to see what a Mobius Strip was, see an illustration in this youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVsIAa2XNKc I really liked the analogy, because any single action on the strip has effects that manifest distinctly, yet as a unity, in each side of the strip, which very nicely illustrates how one single fact (that of social life) manifests both, and yet inherently united within a self-developing whole, as the individual and as the social. I would also like to add two articles by F. T. Mikhailov, who writes about inter-intrasubjectivity, and speaks of purposively volitional action and freedom (which I think is, at the end of the day, the heart of the reflection that professor Zuckerman's chapter speaks about) as "a single intra- and intersubjective affect of humane co-being." Mikhailov's approach in these papers is much less empirical, yet I think adds value and a beautifully inspiring lenses to approach not only the empirical questions that raise in our research, when we try to theorise and provide answers to general questions on [teaching-learning] and development, but also to our everyday being together with others, with my children and partner at home, with other teachers and children at the elementary school where I am working, etc... I think the power of being mindful to the irreducibly unity of the inter- and the intra- at every step is that, when I approach an other, I may wonder not how can I change (teach?) her or him, but how can I change US. This may seem obvious, yet it does not come automatically; there is (reflective!) work to be done. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: 19 December 2016 17:48 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Galina Zuckerman Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Zukerman resumed Dear Colleagues-- Here is a response to Larry's note of a few days ago from Galina Zuckerman. I will send along a copy of the Gordon's paper. Original message below. mike ---------------- I am extremely grateful to you and your colleagues for talking about interpsychic action. This is a difficult conversation, so let us move slowly. Today, I will answer only one fragment of the note from that wonderful co-conversationalist (I do not dare call him simply by the name of Larry - it's too familiar for Russian-speaking people). "The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own interiorized mental activity." Yes! Yes!!! However, is there any sense in raising the question of what is more important - interpsychic or intra-psychic? What's more important for walking - movement of the left or right foot? Those cultural means which I have already mastered are the primary conditions to enter the new interpsychic space that was closed to me before I have mastered a new cultural means... Also, there is no point in the question of what comes first - interpsychic or intrapsychic. In order to join the interpsychic action to meet a partner, I should have some margin of autonomy, initiative ... The Mobius strip is the best symbol of the relationship of INTER and INTRA in the development process, in which there is always a moment of SELF-development. I'm afraid to say more because I have not read neither the latest work of Gordon Wells' work, nor his work "The complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994." If you can send me a text, please do !!! I owe so much to this talented author; His book Dialogic inquiry opened for me new ways of research. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Galina Zuckerman Date: 2016-12-19 4:55 GMT-08:00 Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed To: mike cole ??????? ????! ? ??????????? ?????????? ??? ? ????? ???????? ?? ???????? ?? ???????????????? ????????. ??? ??????? ????????, ??????? ??????? ????????? ???????????. ??????? ? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ?????????????? ??????????? (?? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? Larry ? ??? ?????????????? ???????? ??? ??????? ??????????). The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own interiorized mental activity. ??! ??!!! ?????? ???? ?? ????? ? ?????????? ??????? ? ???, ??? ?????? ? ???????????????? ??? ????????????????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ? ???????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?????????? ????????, ??????? ? ??? ???????, ??? ? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ? ????? ???????????????? ????????????, ??????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????, ??? ? ??????? ????? ?????????? ????????? ????? ??? ?????? ? ??????? ? ???, ??? ???????? - ???????????????? ??? ????????????????. ??? ???? ????? ?????????????? ? ????????????????? ????????, ????? ??????????? ? ?????????, ? ?????? ???????? ?????-?? ??????? ?????????????????, ??????????????? ????? ??????? ? ?????? ?????? ????????? ????? ? ????? ? ???????? ????????, ? ??????? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ????????????. ????? ????????? ??????, ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ????????? ????? ??????? ??????, ?? ??? ?????? The complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994. ???? ?????, ???????? ??? ?????, ??????????!!! ? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???????????? ??????; ??? ????? *Dialogic* *inquiry* ??????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????????????. ?? ????, ?????? ??? ??????? ?????????? ??????????, ?? ?? ???? ?? ????????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????????? (??. ??????????). ????? ??????-?????? ???????! ???? ???????? On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:48 PM, mike cole wrote: > Dear Galina -- This is a serious response to your work and it would be > great if you could find time to respond, at least the first part where Larry > tries to summarize your view of the intermental. He is trying to be > helpful and build on what people are writing, and some help from you would > move the whole discussion along. We will worry about translation at this > end...... > > Bud' zdorova > > mike > > > mike > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: > Date: Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the article. > > Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical > activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that Gordon > Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH > *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan and > coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech > > AND in addition language as > *a medium in which those above activities are SYMBOLICALLY REPRESENTED, > providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated ideal > mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech. > > This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual physical > discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority given to > the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge moment within > the dual nature of language as both external and interior. > > Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all the > way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon Wells is > exploring. > My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman article on > the priority of the (intermental) > > For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells (The > complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based > Theory of Learning, 1994) > Loose threads being picked up > > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Mikhailov 2004 Object Oriented Activity Whose.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 286437 bytes Desc: Mikhailov 2004 Object Oriented Activity Whose.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161219/0fc8cdf1/attachment-0002.pdf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Mikhailov 2006 Problems of the Method of Cultural Historical Psychology.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 262351 bytes Desc: Mikhailov 2006 Problems of the Method of Cultural Historical Psychology.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161219/0fc8cdf1/attachment-0003.pdf From smago@uga.edu Mon Dec 19 12:01:04 2016 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 20:01:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] http://luria.ucsd.edu/DVD/ Message-ID: http://luria.ucsd.edu/DVD/ I've begun listening to this set of podcasts. It's fascinating. I've read the volume and am familiar with the issues, but hearing them again both reinforces what I think I knew, and adds a very personal layer to understanding Luria's career. Highly recommended. From victor@kfar-hanassi.org.il Mon Dec 19 13:36:06 2016 From: victor@kfar-hanassi.org.il (Victor Friedlander) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 23:36:06 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter In-Reply-To: <1482160954603.6452@iped.uio.no> References: <22B23273-9BA1-4018-B59E-18476CE8AACB@eastsideinstitute.org> <3F34C2EA-92D7-47CF-ACF1-C3EFC7D1A609@eastsideinstitute.org> <1482123790380.26460@iped.uio.no> <1482160954603.6452@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: John Shotter was the scholar I most wanted to meet. Thanks for the advice on accessing his writings and lectures. *Victor Friedlander* "--do nothing you are expected to do, do everything no one would expect you to do, keep cover, shoot straight -- and never let up." Victor Friedlander On 19 December 2016 at 17:22, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Thanks so much, Beatrice! > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Beatrice Ligorio > Sent: 19 December 2016 10:10 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter > > Hi all, in 2009 on Qwerty there an interesting paper authored by Shotter. > It is freely downloadable. You may be interested on it > > http://www.ckbg.org/qwerty/index.php/qwerty/article/view/45 > > Qwerty - Open and Interdisciplinary Journal of Technology ...< > http://www.ckbg.org/qwerty/index.php/qwerty/article/view/45> > www.ckbg.org > This paper explores the move away from the idea of speech communication as > a process of information transmission, and explores instead the role of the > spontaneous ... > > > > > Bea > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 5:03 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter > > Thanks for sharing the news, and the memories; Mike, I'll try to follow up > on your suggestion regarding John's entries. > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Beth Ferholt > Sent: 18 December 2016 21:40 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: John Shotter > > Thank you for this email, Lois. John was my teacher in several classes > when I was 18 years old at Swarthmore college. After ten years as a > preschool teacher I contacted him and told him my muddled ideas about > children teaching adults through play, in relation to Vygotsky's work, and > he said: "Go and think about these things with Mike Cole at LCHC!" > > John raised many people into academics, I think, and I still remember his > interest when I shaved my head: "Ah -- when you change your haircut at 18, > it must mean something!" I do not think many people could have helped me > to have been both a preschool teacher and an academic in one lifetime. I > will miss him very much. > > Beth > > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Lois Holzman < > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > > > Thanks, Mike. I?ll definitely review those entries. > > For those interested, there are videos of John and others at a day event > > entitled ?Performing John Shotter: A Celebration of John shorter and his > > Work " at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3MzPGndE8 < > [https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.Vf31c332b576c88c83471344458a04d32&pid=Api > ] > > Performing John Shotter: A Celebration of John Shotter and ...< > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3MzPGndE8> > www.youtube.com > 8/10/2016 A day celebrating the brilliant creativity and observational > gifts of John Shotter which have been and is so influential of systemic and > dialogical... > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3MzPGndE8> > [https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.Vf31c332b576c88c83471344458a04d32&pid=Api > ] > > Performing John Shotter: A Celebration of John Shotter and ...< > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3MzPGndE8> > www.youtube.com > 8/10/2016 A day celebrating the brilliant creativity and observational > gifts of John Shotter which have been and is so influential of systemic and > dialogical... > > > > > Lois > > > > > > Lois Holzman > > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > 119 West 23 St, suite 902 > > New York, NY 10011 > > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > Social Media > > Facebook | LinkedIn < > http://www. > [https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-1/c15.0.160. > 160/p160x160/580293_10151859077893927_280919087_n.jpg?oh= > 3ed9e8a9c13490025db98881290afba2&oe=58B01A4E] facebook.com/lois.holzman.5> > > Lois Holzman | Facebook > www.facebook.com > Lois Holzman is on Facebook. Join Facebook to connect with Lois Holzman > and others you may know. Facebook gives people the power to share and makes > the... > > > > > %20linkedin.com/pub/lois-holzman> | Twitter > LoisHolzman> > > Blogs > > Psychology Today > com/blog/conceptual-revolution>| Psychology of Becoming < > > http://loisholzman.org/> | Mad in America > author/lois/> > > Websites > > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute < > > http://eastsideinstitute.org/> | Performing the World > performingtheworld.org/> > > All Stars Project > > > > > > > > > On Dec 18, 2016, at 2:43 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > That is very sad news, Lois. > > > John was a marvelous and modest scholar from whom we did and could > > > learn a lot. > > > > > > There are some 480 entries of discussion involving John and his work > > > accesible via lchc.ucsd.edu if you use the google search and Shotter > as > > the > > > search word. My eye fell on a paper by John about Wittgenstein and > > Vygotsky > > > that made me think of Larry's meditations and concerns. > > > > > > Might someone curate those documents which seem to complement those > > > available at John's website? It would be a gift to the group for sure: > > > > > > http://www.johnshotter.com/john-shotter-papers/ > > > > > > Darn > > > mike > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Lois Holzman < > > > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > > > > > >> I wanted those here to know that John Shotter passed away a few weeks > > ago > > >> after a long illness. He was a lovely and brilliant person and a > friend > > of > > >> mine and other XMCA-ers. You can click here < > > http://loisholzman.org/2016/ > > >> 12/john-shotter-relational-becomings/> for a bit about and from John. > > >> Lois > > >> > > >> Lois Holzman > > >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > >> 119 West 23 St, suite 902 > > >> New York, NY 10011 > > >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > >> Social Media > > >> Facebook | LinkedIn < > > http://www. > > >> %20linkedin.com/pub/lois-holzman> | Twitter > >> LoisHolzman> > > >> Blogs > > >> Psychology Today > >> com/blog/conceptual-revolution>| Psychology of Becoming < > > >> http://loisholzman.org/> | Mad in America < > http://www.madinamerica.com/ > > >> author/lois/> > > >> Websites > > >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute < > > >> http://eastsideinstitute.org/> | Performing the World > >> performingtheworld.org/> > > >> All Stars Project > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Assistant Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Dec 19 13:49:26 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 13:49:26 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Zukerman resumed In-Reply-To: <1482176550740.26385@iped.uio.no> References: <5852eedd.17df620a.e0dd.b637@mx.google.com> , <1482176550740.26385@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <58585605.04386b0a.37b79.7982@mx.google.com> Galina, Alfredo, In the spirit of moving slowly, travelling through the mobius strip as a single inter/ intrasubjective affect of (our) co-being i want to highlight the way Galina introduces this subject matter on page 3 and 4 of the article in exploring the birth of a subject (able to learn). This in contrast to a student who is an object of learning. Here is the way Galina clearly lays out the theme of the birth of the subject of learning?: In order to pinpoint the birth of a subject able to learn independently, we examine two possible relations of the set of concepts (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky School?: 1) As long as an action remains intermental and is carried out with the help of an adult, it is not independent 2) People can independently bring about a collaborative, intermental action, that they are unable to carry out individually. The definition of independent in the 1st set of relations between interpsychic action and independent action as freedom from external influence, compulsion, support, and assistance ....the capacity for independent action judgement, initiative, decisiveness, points to the narrowness and impoverishment of this concept (independence) when it is understood as merely the result of mastering an action that becomes independent action. The 2nd set of relations conceives a person independently bringing about an intermental collaboration in order to get assistance to carry out an action the person is not able to do individually. As i read through this article i kept these two possible contrasting set of relations in view in the developing nature of a subject of learning who is (able to learn). Keeping this topic of inter/intra mobius strip in the slow lane for further reflection. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 19, 2016 11:45 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Galina Zuckerman Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Zukerman resumed Oh, I am so glad that this conversation is going on! Thanks Larry for your sustained effort to keep it going, to Mike for bringing the author in, and to professor Zuckerman for being so generous to join us. For those of you who, like me, had to go and do a search to see what a Mobius Strip was, see an illustration in this youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVsIAa2XNKc I really liked the analogy, because any single action on the strip has effects that manifest distinctly, yet as a unity, in each side of the strip, which very nicely illustrates how one single fact (that of social life) manifests both, and yet inherently united within a self-developing whole, as the individual and as the social. I would also like to add two articles by F. T. Mikhailov, who writes about inter-intrasubjectivity, and speaks of purposively volitional action and freedom (which I think is, at the end of the day, the heart of the reflection that professor Zuckerman's chapter speaks about) as "a single intra- and intersubjective affect of humane co-being." Mikhailov's approach in these papers is much less empirical, yet I think adds value and a beautifully inspiring lenses to approach not only the empirical questions that raise in our research, when we try to theorise and provide answers to general questions on [teaching-learning] and development, but also to our everyday being together with others, with my children and partner at home, with other teachers and children at the elementary school where I am working, etc... I think the power of being mindful to the irreducibly unity of the inter- and the intra- at every step is that, when I approach an other, I may wonder not how can I change (teach?) her or him, but how can I change US. This may seem obvious, yet it does not come automatically; there is (reflective!) work to be done. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: 19 December 2016 17:48 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Galina Zuckerman Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Zukerman resumed Dear Colleagues-- Here is a response to Larry's note of a few days ago from Galina Zuckerman. I will send along a copy of the Gordon's paper. Original message below. mike ---------------- I am extremely grateful to you and your colleagues for talking about interpsychic action. This is a difficult conversation, so let us move slowly. Today, I will answer only one fragment of the note from that wonderful co-conversationalist (I do not dare call him simply by the name of Larry - it's too familiar for Russian-speaking people). "The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own interiorized mental activity." Yes! Yes!!! However, is there any sense in raising the question of what is more important - interpsychic or intra-psychic? What's more important for walking - movement of the left or right foot? Those cultural means which I have already mastered are the primary conditions to enter the new interpsychic space that was closed to me before I have mastered a new cultural means... Also, there is no point in the question of what comes first - interpsychic or intrapsychic. In order to join the interpsychic action to meet a partner, I should have some margin of autonomy, initiative ... The Mobius strip is the best symbol of the relationship of INTER and INTRA in the development process, in which there is always a moment of SELF-development. I'm afraid to say more because I have not read neither the latest work of Gordon Wells' work, nor his work "The complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994." If you can send me a text, please do !!! I owe so much to this talented author; His book Dialogic inquiry opened for me new ways of research. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Galina Zuckerman Date: 2016-12-19 4:55 GMT-08:00 Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed To: mike cole ??????? ????! ? ??????????? ?????????? ??? ? ????? ???????? ?? ???????? ?? ???????????????? ????????. ??? ??????? ????????, ??????? ??????? ????????? ???????????. ??????? ? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ?????????????? ??????????? (?? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? Larry ? ??? ?????????????? ???????? ??? ??????? ??????????). The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own interiorized mental activity. ??! ??!!! ?????? ???? ?? ????? ? ?????????? ??????? ? ???, ??? ?????? ? ???????????????? ??? ????????????????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ? ???????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?????????? ????????, ??????? ? ??? ???????, ??? ? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ? ????? ???????????????? ????????????, ??????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????, ??? ? ??????? ????? ?????????? ????????? ????? ??? ?????? ? ??????? ? ???, ??? ???????? - ???????????????? ??? ????????????????. ??? ???? ????? ?????????????? ? ????????????????? ????????, ????? ??????????? ? ?????????, ? ?????? ???????? ?????-?? ??????? ?????????????????, ??????????????? ????? ??????? ? ?????? ?????? ????????? ????? ? ????? ? ???????? ????????, ? ??????? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ????????????. ????? ????????? ??????, ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ????????? ????? ??????? ??????, ?? ??? ?????? The complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994. ???? ?????, ???????? ??? ?????, ??????????!!! ? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???????????? ??????; ??? ????? *Dialogic* *inquiry* ??????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????????????. ?? ????, ?????? ??? ??????? ?????????? ??????????, ?? ?? ???? ?? ????????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????????? (??. ??????????). ????? ??????-?????? ???????! ???? ???????? On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:48 PM, mike cole wrote: > Dear Galina -- This is a serious response to your work and it would be > great if you could find time to respond, at least the first part where Larry > tries to summarize your view of the intermental. He is trying to be > helpful and build on what people are writing, and some help from you would > move the whole discussion along. We will worry about translation at this > end...... > > Bud' zdorova > > mike > > > mike > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: > Date: Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the article. > > Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical > activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that Gordon > Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH > *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan and > coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech > > AND in addition language as > *a medium in which those above activities are SYMBOLICALLY REPRESENTED, > providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated ideal > mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech. > > This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual physical > discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority given to > the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge moment within > the dual nature of language as both external and interior. > > Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all the > way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon Wells is > exploring. > My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman article on > the priority of the (intermental) > > For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells (The > complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based > Theory of Learning, 1994) > Loose threads being picked up > > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Dec 19 14:04:12 2016 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 15:04:12 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed In-Reply-To: <1482176550740.26385@iped.uio.no> References: <5852eedd.17df620a.e0dd.b637@mx.google.com> <1482176550740.26385@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <39F282D8-7EE4-47AB-9B7A-6BC7D0D6E913@gmail.com> Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA This mobius metaphor came up some time ago on the chat. Most of us, myself included, wouldn?t have heard and visualized Bach?s Crab Cannon as a mobius strip, but it sure works as music. In the same way discourse wouldn?t be (consciously) heard that way either. Yet every dialog ?looks" both forward and backward at every moment, reprising/elaborating on previous turns, anticipating future turns. Henry > On Dec 19, 2016, at 12:42 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > Oh, I am so glad that this conversation is going on! Thanks Larry for your sustained effort to keep it going, to Mike for bringing the author in, and to professor Zuckerman for being so generous to join us. > > For those of you who, like me, had to go and do a search to see what a Mobius Strip was, see an illustration in this youtube video: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVsIAa2XNKc > > I really liked the analogy, because any single action on the strip has effects that manifest distinctly, yet as a unity, in each side of the strip, which very nicely illustrates how one single fact (that of social life) manifests both, and yet inherently united within a self-developing whole, as the individual and as the social. > > I would also like to add two articles by F. T. Mikhailov, who writes about inter-intrasubjectivity, and speaks of purposively volitional action and freedom (which I think is, at the end of the day, the heart of the reflection that professor Zuckerman's chapter speaks about) as "a single intra- and intersubjective affect of humane co-being." Mikhailov's approach in these papers is much less empirical, yet I think adds value and a beautifully inspiring lenses to approach not only the empirical questions that raise in our research, when we try to theorise and provide answers to general questions on [teaching-learning] and development, but also to our everyday being together with others, with my children and partner at home, with other teachers and children at the elementary school where I am working, etc... I think the power of being mindful to the irreducibly unity of the inter- and the intra- at every step is that, when I approach an other, I may wonder not how can I change (teach?) her or him, but how can I change US. This may seem obvious, yet it does not come automatically; there is (reflective!) work to be done. > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole > Sent: 19 December 2016 17:48 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: Galina Zuckerman > Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Zukerman resumed > > Dear Colleagues-- Here is a response to Larry's note of a few days ago from > Galina Zuckerman. I will send along a copy of the Gordon's paper. Original > message below. > > mike > ---------------- > I am extremely grateful to you and your colleagues for talking about > interpsychic action. This is a difficult conversation, so let us move > slowly. Today, I will answer only one fragment of the note from that > wonderful co-conversationalist (I do not dare call him simply by the name > of Larry - it's too familiar for Russian-speaking people). > > "The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > interiorized mental activity." > > Yes! Yes!!! However, is there any sense in raising the question of what is > more important - interpsychic or intra-psychic? What's more important for > walking - movement of the left or right foot? Those cultural means which I > have already mastered are the primary conditions to enter the new > interpsychic space that was closed to me before I have mastered a new > cultural means... > > Also, there is no point in the question of what comes first - interpsychic > or intrapsychic. In order to join the interpsychic action to meet a > partner, I should have some margin of autonomy, initiative ... > > The Mobius strip is the best symbol of the relationship of INTER and INTRA > in the development process, in which there is always a moment of > SELF-development. > > I'm afraid to say more because I have not read neither the latest work of > Gordon Wells' work, nor his work "The complimentary contributions of > Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994." If you > can send me a text, please do !!! I owe so much to this talented author; > His book Dialogic inquiry opened for me new ways of research. > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Galina Zuckerman > Date: 2016-12-19 4:55 GMT-08:00 > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed > To: mike cole > > > ??????? ????! > > > ? ??????????? ?????????? ??? ? ????? ???????? ?? ???????? ?? > ???????????????? ????????. ??? ??????? ????????, ??????? ??????? ????????? > ???????????. ??????? ? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ?????????????? > ??????????? (?? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? Larry ? ??? > ?????????????? ???????? ??? ??????? ??????????). > > > The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > interiorized mental activity. > > > ??! ??!!! ?????? ???? ?? ????? ? ?????????? ??????? ? ???, ??? ?????? ? > ???????????????? ??? ????????????????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ? ???????? > ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?????????? ????????, ??????? ? ??? ???????, ??? ? > ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ? ????? ???????????????? ????????????, > ??????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????, ??? ? ??????? ????? ?????????? > ????????? > > > ????? ??? ?????? ? ??????? ? ???, ??? ???????? - ???????????????? ??? > ????????????????. ??? ???? ????? ?????????????? ? ????????????????? > ????????, ????? ??????????? ? ?????????, ? ?????? ???????? ?????-?? ??????? > ?????????????????, ??????????????? > > > ????? ??????? ? ?????? ?????? ????????? ????? ? ????? ? ???????? ????????, > ? ??????? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ????????????. > > > ????? ????????? ??????, ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ????????? ????? ??????? > ??????, ?? ??? ?????? The complimentary contributions of Halliday and > Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994. ???? ?????, ???????? > ??? ?????, ??????????!!! ? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???????????? ??????; > ??? ????? *Dialogic* *inquiry* ??????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????????????. > > > ?? ????, ?????? ??? ??????? ?????????? ??????????, ?? ?? ???? ?? ????????? > ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????????? (??. ??????????). > > > ????? ??????-?????? ???????! > > ???? ???????? > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:48 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Dear Galina -- This is a serious response to your work and it would be >> great if you could find time to respond, at least the first part where Larry >> tries to summarize your view of the intermental. He is trying to be >> helpful and build on what people are writing, and some help from you would >> move the whole discussion along. We will worry about translation at this >> end...... >> >> Bud' zdorova >> >> mike >> >> >> mike >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: >> Date: Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >> >> The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons >> actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to >> put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own >> interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the article. >> >> Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical >> activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that Gordon >> Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH >> *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan and >> coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech >> >> AND in addition language as >> *a medium in which those above activities are SYMBOLICALLY REPRESENTED, >> providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated ideal >> mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech. >> >> This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual physical >> discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority given to >> the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge moment within >> the dual nature of language as both external and interior. >> >> Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all the >> way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon Wells is >> exploring. >> My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman article on >> the priority of the (intermental) >> >> For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells (The >> complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based >> Theory of Learning, 1994) >> Loose threads being picked up >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Dec 20 07:42:02 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 07:42:02 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Zukerman resumed In-Reply-To: <58585605.04386b0a.37b79.7982@mx.google.com> References: <5852eedd.17df620a.e0dd.b637@mx.google.com> , <1482176550740.26385@iped.uio.no> <58585605.04386b0a.37b79.7982@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5859516a.82dc620a.8f232.a0b3@mx.google.com> Galina, Alfredo, The video of the mobius strip as a way of orienting or proceeding in the back and forth supports my re-trieving the reading (co-conversation) on page 8 of the article where Galina lays out some similar terms?with similar meanings. Communication?: Collaboration Collaboration?: Joint action Joint action : Form of interaction. Therefore we can add the adjective (learning) to each of the above terms. Learning communication Learning collaboration Learning joint action Learning forms of interaction. With these synonyms in hand we can now turn to the question Galina asks on page 8. What does the diagram (figure 1) *add* to the Vygotsky school?s understanding of the periods of children?s mental development?. Notice page 9 where the figure 1 is labeled - (Periodization of leading ? and *enduring* forms of collaboration between children and an adult). The key word i am focussing on is *enduring*. As Galina emphasizes this figure highlights that leading forms of communication/collaboration/joint action/forms of interaction *are enduring*. Galina in her own words says: The wording regarding leading forms of interaction makes explicit an obvious fact that often *escapes attention*: The forms of collaboration children assimilate do not die off at the end of a given age once they have given rise to a particular n?oformation... Rather than replacing the previous developmental stage, the new one *merges* with it. The birth of new forms of collaboration equips children with new techniques for initiating previous forms of communication. The two terms (enduring) and (merging) i believe are key terms to focus on in this addition to the Vygotsky school. I have moved slowly, re-trieving and re-working and laying out for consideration a shift in accent, a new way of inclining into this body of work. It is my way through the mobius strip to engage as a co-conversationalist in the slow lane. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: December 19, 2016 1:49 PM To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Galina Zuckerman Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Zukerman resumed Galina, Alfredo, In the spirit of moving slowly, travelling through the mobius strip as a single inter/ intrasubjective affect of (our) co-being i want to highlight the way Galina introduces this subject matter on page 3 and 4 of the article in exploring the birth of a subject (able to learn). This in contrast to a student who is an object of learning. Here is the way Galina clearly lays out the theme of the birth of the subject of learning?: In order to pinpoint the birth of a subject able to learn independently, we examine two possible relations of the set of concepts (interpsychic action) and (independent action) existing within the Vygotsky School?: 1) As long as an action remains intermental and is carried out with the help of an adult, it is not independent 2) People can independently bring about a collaborative, intermental action, that they are unable to carry out individually. The definition of? independent in the 1st set of relations between interpsychic action and independent action as freedom from external influence, compulsion, support, and assistance ....the capacity for independent action judgement, initiative, decisiveness,? points to the narrowness and impoverishment of this concept (independence) when it is understood as merely the result of mastering an action that becomes independent action. The 2nd set of relations conceives a person independently bringing about an intermental collaboration in order to get assistance to carry out an action the person is not able to do individually. As i read through this article i kept these two possible contrasting set of relations in view in the developing nature of a subject of learning who is (able to learn). Keeping this topic of inter/intra mobius strip in the slow lane for further reflection. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: December 19, 2016 11:45 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Galina Zuckerman Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Zukerman resumed Oh, I am so glad that this conversation is going on! Thanks Larry for your sustained effort to keep it going, to Mike for bringing the author in, and to professor Zuckerman for being so generous to join us. For those of you who, like me, had to go and do a search to see what a Mobius Strip was, see an illustration in this youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVsIAa2XNKc I really liked the analogy, because any single action on the strip has effects that manifest distinctly, yet as a unity, in each side of the strip, which very nicely illustrates how one single fact (that of social life) manifests both, and yet inherently united within a self-developing whole, as the individual and as the social. I would also like to add two articles by F. T. Mikhailov, who writes about inter-intrasubjectivity, and speaks of purposively volitional action and freedom (which I think is, at the end of the day, the heart of the reflection that professor Zuckerman's chapter speaks about) as "a single intra- and intersubjective affect of humane co-being." Mikhailov's approach in these papers is much less empirical, yet I think adds value and a beautifully inspiring lenses to approach not only the empirical questions that raise in our research, when we try to theorise and provide answers to general questions on [teaching-learning] and development, but also to our everyday being together with others, with my children and partner at home, with other teachers and children at the elementary school where I am working, etc... I think the power of being mindful to the irreducibly unity of the inter- and the intra- at every step is that, when I approach an other, I may wonder not how can I change (teach?) her or him, but how can I change US. This may seem obvious, yet it does not come automatically; there is (reflective!) work to be done. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: 19 December 2016 17:48 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Galina Zuckerman Subject: [Xmca-l]? Fwd:? Zukerman resumed Dear Colleagues-- Here is a response to Larry's note of a few days ago from Galina Zuckerman. I will send along a copy of the Gordon's paper. Original message below. mike ---------------- I am extremely grateful to you and your colleagues for talking about interpsychic action. This is a difficult conversation, so let us move slowly. Today, I will answer only one fragment of the note from that wonderful co-conversationalist (I do not dare call him simply by the name of Larry - it's too familiar for Russian-speaking people). "The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own interiorized mental activity." Yes! Yes!!! However, is there any sense in raising the question of what is more important - interpsychic or intra-psychic? What's more important for walking - movement of the left or right foot? Those cultural means which I have already mastered are the primary conditions to enter the new interpsychic space that was closed to me before I have mastered a new cultural means... Also, there is no point in the question of what comes first - interpsychic or intrapsychic. In order to join the interpsychic action to meet a partner, I should have some margin of autonomy, initiative ... The Mobius strip is the best symbol of the relationship of INTER and INTRA in the development process, in which there is always a moment of SELF-development. I'm afraid to say more because I have not read neither the latest work of Gordon Wells' work, nor his work "The complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994." If you can send me a text, please do !!! I owe so much to this talented author; His book Dialogic inquiry opened for me new ways of research. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Galina Zuckerman Date: 2016-12-19 4:55 GMT-08:00 Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed To: mike cole ??????? ????! ? ??????????? ?????????? ??? ? ????? ???????? ?? ???????? ?? ???????????????? ????????. ??? ??????? ????????, ??????? ??????? ????????? ???????????. ??????? ? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ?????????????? ??????????? (?? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? Larry ? ??? ?????????????? ???????? ??? ??????? ??????????). The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own interiorized mental activity. ??! ??!!! ?????? ???? ?? ????? ? ?????????? ??????? ? ???, ??? ?????? ? ???????????????? ??? ????????????????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ? ???????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?????????? ????????, ??????? ? ??? ???????, ??? ? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ? ????? ???????????????? ????????????, ??????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????, ??? ? ??????? ????? ?????????? ????????? ????? ??? ?????? ? ??????? ? ???, ??? ???????? - ???????????????? ??? ????????????????. ??? ???? ????? ?????????????? ? ????????????????? ????????, ????? ??????????? ? ?????????, ? ?????? ???????? ?????-?? ??????? ?????????????????, ??????????????? ????? ??????? ? ?????? ?????? ????????? ????? ? ????? ? ???????? ????????, ? ??????? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ????????????. ????? ????????? ??????, ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ????????? ????? ??????? ??????, ?? ??? ?????? The complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994. ???? ?????, ???????? ??? ?????, ??????????!!! ? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???????????? ??????; ??? ????? *Dialogic* *inquiry* ??????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????????????. ?? ????, ?????? ??? ??????? ?????????? ??????????, ?? ?? ???? ?? ????????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????????? (??. ??????????). ????? ??????-?????? ???????! ???? ???????? On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:48 PM, mike cole wrote: > Dear Galina -- This is a serious response to your work and it would be > great if you could find time to respond, at least the first part where Larry > tries to summarize your view of the intermental. He is trying to be > helpful and build on what people are writing, and some help from you would > move the whole discussion along. We will worry about translation at this > end...... > > Bud' zdorova > > mike > > > mike > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: > Date: Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the article. > > Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical > activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that Gordon > Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH > *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan and > coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech > > AND in addition language as > *a medium in which those? above activities are SYMBOLICALLY REPRESENTED, > providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated ideal > mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech. > > This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual physical > discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority given to > the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge moment within > the dual nature of language as both external and interior. > > Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all the > way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon Wells is > exploring. > My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman article on > the priority of the (intermental) > > For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells (The > complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based > Theory of Learning, 1994) > Loose threads being picked up > > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Dec 20 09:38:20 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 09:38:20 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed In-Reply-To: <39F282D8-7EE4-47AB-9B7A-6BC7D0D6E913@gmail.com> References: <5852eedd.17df620a.e0dd.b637@mx.google.com> <1482176550740.26385@iped.uio.no> <39F282D8-7EE4-47AB-9B7A-6BC7D0D6E913@gmail.com> Message-ID: Nicely said, Henry. As schematized in your note, Larry, the use of the word, "independent" struck me rather forcefully. What does an "independent" human organism possibly mean when any state of independence is really a state of "suppressed" INTER-dependencies. No (wo)man is an island is literally true. Or non-existence. Isn't independence just what, in context, we attribute to particular forms of interdependence? We are always dealing with relations, most proximally relations between human beings and between human beings interacting as part of their local ecology. Anyway, the notion of independent seems to need bracketing. mike On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:04 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Check this out: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA> > > This mobius metaphor came up some time ago on the chat. Most of us, myself > included, wouldn?t have heard and visualized Bach?s Crab Cannon as a mobius > strip, but it sure works as music. In the same way discourse wouldn?t be > (consciously) heard that way either. Yet every dialog ?looks" both forward > and backward at every moment, reprising/elaborating on previous turns, > anticipating future turns. > > Henry > > > > On Dec 19, 2016, at 12:42 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > > Oh, I am so glad that this conversation is going on! Thanks Larry for > your sustained effort to keep it going, to Mike for bringing the author in, > and to professor Zuckerman for being so generous to join us. > > > > For those of you who, like me, had to go and do a search to see what a > Mobius Strip was, see an illustration in this youtube video: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVsIAa2XNKc > > > > I really liked the analogy, because any single action on the strip has > effects that manifest distinctly, yet as a unity, in each side of the > strip, which very nicely illustrates how one single fact (that of social > life) manifests both, and yet inherently united within a self-developing > whole, as the individual and as the social. > > > > I would also like to add two articles by F. T. Mikhailov, who writes > about inter-intrasubjectivity, and speaks of purposively volitional action > and freedom (which I think is, at the end of the day, the heart of the > reflection that professor Zuckerman's chapter speaks about) as "a single > intra- and intersubjective affect of humane co-being." Mikhailov's approach > in these papers is much less empirical, yet I think adds value and a > beautifully inspiring lenses to approach not only the empirical questions > that raise in our research, when we try to theorise and provide answers to > general questions on [teaching-learning] and development, but also to our > everyday being together with others, with my children and partner at home, > with other teachers and children at the elementary school where I am > working, etc... I think the power of being mindful to the irreducibly unity > of the inter- and the intra- at every step is that, when I approach an > other, I may wonder not how can I change (teach?) her or him, but how can I > change US. This may seem obvious, yet it does not come automatically; there > is (reflective!) work to be done. > > > > Alfredo > > > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > > Sent: 19 December 2016 17:48 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Cc: Galina Zuckerman > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Zukerman resumed > > > > Dear Colleagues-- Here is a response to Larry's note of a few days ago > from > > Galina Zuckerman. I will send along a copy of the Gordon's paper. > Original > > message below. > > > > mike > > ---------------- > > I am extremely grateful to you and your colleagues for talking about > > interpsychic action. This is a difficult conversation, so let us move > > slowly. Today, I will answer only one fragment of the note from that > > wonderful co-conversationalist (I do not dare call him simply by the name > > of Larry - it's too familiar for Russian-speaking people). > > > > "The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > interiorized mental activity." > > > > Yes! Yes!!! However, is there any sense in raising the question of what > is > > more important - interpsychic or intra-psychic? What's more important for > > walking - movement of the left or right foot? Those cultural means which > I > > have already mastered are the primary conditions to enter the new > > interpsychic space that was closed to me before I have mastered a new > > cultural means... > > > > Also, there is no point in the question of what comes first - > interpsychic > > or intrapsychic. In order to join the interpsychic action to meet a > > partner, I should have some margin of autonomy, initiative ... > > > > The Mobius strip is the best symbol of the relationship of INTER and > INTRA > > in the development process, in which there is always a moment of > > SELF-development. > > > > I'm afraid to say more because I have not read neither the latest work of > > Gordon Wells' work, nor his work "The complimentary contributions of > > Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994." If > you > > can send me a text, please do !!! I owe so much to this talented author; > > His book Dialogic inquiry opened for me new ways of research. > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Galina Zuckerman > > Date: 2016-12-19 4:55 GMT-08:00 > > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed > > To: mike cole > > > > > > ??????? ????! > > > > > > ? ??????????? ?????????? ??? ? ????? ???????? ?? ???????? ?? > > ???????????????? ????????. ??? ??????? ????????, ??????? ??????? > ????????? > > ???????????. ??????? ? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ?????????????? > > ??????????? (?? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? Larry ? ??? > > ?????????????? ???????? ??? ??????? ??????????). > > > > > > The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > interiorized mental activity. > > > > > > ??! ??!!! ?????? ???? ?? ????? ? ?????????? ??????? ? ???, ??? ?????? ? > > ???????????????? ??? ????????????????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ? ???????? > > ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?????????? ????????, ??????? ? ??? ???????, > ??? ? > > ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ? ????? ???????????????? ????????????, > > ??????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????, ??? ? ??????? ????? ?????????? > > ????????? > > > > > > ????? ??? ?????? ? ??????? ? ???, ??? ???????? - ???????????????? ??? > > ????????????????. ??? ???? ????? ?????????????? ? ????????????????? > > ????????, ????? ??????????? ? ?????????, ? ?????? ???????? ?????-?? > ??????? > > ?????????????????, ??????????????? > > > > > > ????? ??????? ? ?????? ?????? ????????? ????? ? ????? ? ???????? > ????????, > > ? ??????? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ????????????. > > > > > > ????? ????????? ??????, ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ????????? ????? ??????? > > ??????, ?? ??? ?????? The complimentary contributions of Halliday and > > Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994. ???? ?????, > ???????? > > ??? ?????, ??????????!!! ? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???????????? > ??????; > > ??? ????? *Dialogic* *inquiry* ??????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????????????. > > > > > > ?? ????, ?????? ??? ??????? ?????????? ??????????, ?? ?? ???? ?? > ????????? > > ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????????? (??. ??????????). > > > > > > ????? ??????-?????? ???????! > > > > ???? ???????? > > > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:48 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> Dear Galina -- This is a serious response to your work and it would be > >> great if you could find time to respond, at least the first part where > Larry > >> tries to summarize your view of the intermental. He is trying to be > >> helpful and build on what people are writing, and some help from you > would > >> move the whole discussion along. We will worry about translation at this > >> end...... > >> > >> Bud' zdorova > >> > >> mike > >> > >> > >> mike > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >> From: > >> Date: Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >> > >> > >> The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > >> actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to > >> put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > >> interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the > article. > >> > >> Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical > >> activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that Gordon > >> Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH > >> *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan and > >> coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech > >> > >> AND in addition language as > >> *a medium in which those above activities are SYMBOLICALLY REPRESENTED, > >> providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated ideal > >> mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech. > >> > >> This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual physical > >> discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority > given to > >> the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge moment > within > >> the dual nature of language as both external and interior. > >> > >> Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all the > >> way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon Wells > is > >> exploring. > >> My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman article > on > >> the priority of the (intermental) > >> > >> For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells (The > >> complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based > >> Theory of Learning, 1994) > >> Loose threads being picked up > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >> > >> > > Problems of the Method of Cultural Historical Psychology.pdf> > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Dec 20 12:21:41 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 05:21:41 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed In-Reply-To: References: <5852eedd.17df620a.e0dd.b637@mx.google.com> <1482176550740.26385@iped.uio.no> <39F282D8-7EE4-47AB-9B7A-6BC7D0D6E913@gmail.com> Message-ID: The "crab canon" plays a central role in Douglas Hofstadter's book on self-reflexivity in mathematics, graphic art and music "Godel Escher Bach", and it really should have been the sound track to the movie "Arrival", a ridiculous and contemptble attempt to do to linguistics and psychology what 'Star Trek" has done to physics. Instead there is this ponderous thumping and growling music which is designed to terrify and fill with foreboding (and which does very little except provide counterpoint to Amy Adams' heavy breathing). Like so much else in the movie, it contradicts its main message, which is that higher beings, by virtue of being higher, would not actually wish us ill; life forms which are capable of treating time synoptically, and regard events as related logically but not temporally, the way that we can treat elements of mathematics, or graphic art, or even music once it is written down, would see that there is nothing to be had out of division and conflict and everything to be had gained from collaboration, cooperation, and communciation: co-generalizations. When I read Galina Zukerman's two papers, I was struck by the attempt to formulate the neoformations for child development first and foremost in interpersonal and emotional terms. I agree completely that emotion is the "sputnik"of development: the alpha and the omega, the inseparable companion-god of the child's neoformations. I think that just like communication and cogeneralization, it has to be always present. But for that very reason, it isn't sufficient explanation for the neoformations themselves: it is is the one thing in development that is never new. Because emotion bred of interpersonal conflict is a "sputnik" (an inseparable companion) it cannot be a sputnik (that is, a new artificial moon). That is why "Arrival" is so deeply unsastifactory as a movie. It's not just the risible way in which the Sapir Whorf hypothesis is formulated ("The language you speak actually rewires your brain", a formulation far more suitable for a racialist linguistics than a cultural-historical one). It's that the message of unity is more than a little undermined by the idea white heterosexual academics are almost thwarted in their mission to help the aliens unite the human race by--who else?--Pakistanis, Sudanese, and Chinese. At the last minute, though, the "model minority" are swayed by an appeal to family values and emotions. Maybe that's why the makers of the movie eschewed the crab canon and instead focused on music that sounds vaguely like Wagner remixed by the guy who does the sound track for "Law and Order". Precisely thanks to the element of self-reflection, you get more linguistics and better psychology out of Larry's "crab canon" moebius strip. David Kellogg Macquarie University On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 2:38 AM, mike cole wrote: > Nicely said, Henry. > > As schematized in your note, Larry, the use of the word, "independent" > struck me rather forcefully. > > What does an "independent" human organism possibly mean when any state of > independence is really a state of "suppressed" INTER-dependencies. No > (wo)man is an island is literally true. Or non-existence. > > Isn't independence just what, in context, we attribute to particular forms > of interdependence? We are always dealing with relations, most proximally > relations between human beings and between human beings interacting as part > of their local ecology. > > Anyway, the notion of independent seems to need bracketing. > > mike > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:04 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > Check this out: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA > watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA> > > > > This mobius metaphor came up some time ago on the chat. Most of us, > myself > > included, wouldn?t have heard and visualized Bach?s Crab Cannon as a > mobius > > strip, but it sure works as music. In the same way discourse wouldn?t be > > (consciously) heard that way either. Yet every dialog ?looks" both > forward > > and backward at every moment, reprising/elaborating on previous turns, > > anticipating future turns. > > > > Henry > > > > > > > On Dec 19, 2016, at 12:42 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > > > > > Oh, I am so glad that this conversation is going on! Thanks Larry for > > your sustained effort to keep it going, to Mike for bringing the author > in, > > and to professor Zuckerman for being so generous to join us. > > > > > > For those of you who, like me, had to go and do a search to see what a > > Mobius Strip was, see an illustration in this youtube video: > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVsIAa2XNKc > > > > > > I really liked the analogy, because any single action on the strip has > > effects that manifest distinctly, yet as a unity, in each side of the > > strip, which very nicely illustrates how one single fact (that of social > > life) manifests both, and yet inherently united within a self-developing > > whole, as the individual and as the social. > > > > > > I would also like to add two articles by F. T. Mikhailov, who writes > > about inter-intrasubjectivity, and speaks of purposively volitional > action > > and freedom (which I think is, at the end of the day, the heart of the > > reflection that professor Zuckerman's chapter speaks about) as "a single > > intra- and intersubjective affect of humane co-being." Mikhailov's > approach > > in these papers is much less empirical, yet I think adds value and a > > beautifully inspiring lenses to approach not only the empirical questions > > that raise in our research, when we try to theorise and provide answers > to > > general questions on [teaching-learning] and development, but also to our > > everyday being together with others, with my children and partner at > home, > > with other teachers and children at the elementary school where I am > > working, etc... I think the power of being mindful to the irreducibly > unity > > of the inter- and the intra- at every step is that, when I approach an > > other, I may wonder not how can I change (teach?) her or him, but how > can I > > change US. This may seem obvious, yet it does not come automatically; > there > > is (reflective!) work to be done. > > > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of mike cole > > > Sent: 19 December 2016 17:48 > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Cc: Galina Zuckerman > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Zukerman resumed > > > > > > Dear Colleagues-- Here is a response to Larry's note of a few days ago > > from > > > Galina Zuckerman. I will send along a copy of the Gordon's paper. > > Original > > > message below. > > > > > > mike > > > ---------------- > > > I am extremely grateful to you and your colleagues for talking about > > > interpsychic action. This is a difficult conversation, so let us move > > > slowly. Today, I will answer only one fragment of the note from that > > > wonderful co-conversationalist (I do not dare call him simply by the > name > > > of Larry - it's too familiar for Russian-speaking people). > > > > > > "The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems > to > > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > > interiorized mental activity." > > > > > > Yes! Yes!!! However, is there any sense in raising the question of what > > is > > > more important - interpsychic or intra-psychic? What's more important > for > > > walking - movement of the left or right foot? Those cultural means > which > > I > > > have already mastered are the primary conditions to enter the new > > > interpsychic space that was closed to me before I have mastered a new > > > cultural means... > > > > > > Also, there is no point in the question of what comes first - > > interpsychic > > > or intrapsychic. In order to join the interpsychic action to meet a > > > partner, I should have some margin of autonomy, initiative ... > > > > > > The Mobius strip is the best symbol of the relationship of INTER and > > INTRA > > > in the development process, in which there is always a moment of > > > SELF-development. > > > > > > I'm afraid to say more because I have not read neither the latest work > of > > > Gordon Wells' work, nor his work "The complimentary contributions of > > > Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994." If > > you > > > can send me a text, please do !!! I owe so much to this talented > author; > > > His book Dialogic inquiry opened for me new ways of research. > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > From: Galina Zuckerman > > > Date: 2016-12-19 4:55 GMT-08:00 > > > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed > > > To: mike cole > > > > > > > > > ??????? ????! > > > > > > > > > ? ??????????? ?????????? ??? ? ????? ???????? ?? ???????? ?? > > > ???????????????? ????????. ??? ??????? ????????, ??????? ??????? > > ????????? > > > ???????????. ??????? ? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ?????????????? > > > ??????????? (?? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? Larry ? ??? > > > ?????????????? ???????? ??? ??????? ??????????). > > > > > > > > > The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems > to > > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > > interiorized mental activity. > > > > > > > > > ??! ??!!! ?????? ???? ?? ????? ? ?????????? ??????? ? ???, ??? ?????? ? > > > ???????????????? ??? ????????????????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ? ???????? > > > ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?????????? ????????, ??????? ? ??? ???????, > > ??? ? > > > ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ? ????? ???????????????? ????????????, > > > ??????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????, ??? ? ??????? ????? ?????????? > > > ????????? > > > > > > > > > ????? ??? ?????? ? ??????? ? ???, ??? ???????? - ???????????????? ??? > > > ????????????????. ??? ???? ????? ?????????????? ? ????????????????? > > > ????????, ????? ??????????? ? ?????????, ? ?????? ???????? ?????-?? > > ??????? > > > ?????????????????, ??????????????? > > > > > > > > > ????? ??????? ? ?????? ?????? ????????? ????? ? ????? ? ???????? > > ????????, > > > ? ??????? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ????????????. > > > > > > > > > ????? ????????? ??????, ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ????????? ????? ??????? > > > ??????, ?? ??? ?????? The complimentary contributions of Halliday and > > > Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994. ???? ?????, > > ???????? > > > ??? ?????, ??????????!!! ? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???????????? > > ??????; > > > ??? ????? *Dialogic* *inquiry* ??????? ??? ???? ????? ???? > ????????????. > > > > > > > > > ?? ????, ?????? ??? ??????? ?????????? ??????????, ?? ?? ???? ?? > > ????????? > > > ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????????? (??. ??????????). > > > > > > > > > ????? ??????-?????? ???????! > > > > > > ???? ???????? > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:48 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Galina -- This is a serious response to your work and it would be > > >> great if you could find time to respond, at least the first part where > > Larry > > >> tries to summarize your view of the intermental. He is trying to be > > >> helpful and build on what people are writing, and some help from you > > would > > >> move the whole discussion along. We will worry about translation at > this > > >> end...... > > >> > > >> Bud' zdorova > > >> > > >> mike > > >> > > >> > > >> mike > > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > >> From: > > >> Date: Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed > > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > >> > > >> > > >> The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > >> actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems > to > > >> put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > >> interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the > > article. > > >> > > >> Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical > > >> activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that > Gordon > > >> Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH > > >> *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan and > > >> coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech > > >> > > >> AND in addition language as > > >> *a medium in which those above activities are SYMBOLICALLY > REPRESENTED, > > >> providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated > ideal > > >> mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech. > > >> > > >> This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual physical > > >> discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority > > given to > > >> the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge moment > > within > > >> the dual nature of language as both external and interior. > > >> > > >> Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all > the > > >> way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon > Wells > > is > > >> exploring. > > >> My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman > article > > on > > >> the priority of the (intermental) > > >> > > >> For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells (The > > >> complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language > Based > > >> Theory of Learning, 1994) > > >> Loose threads being picked up > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > >> > > >> > > > > Problems of the Method of Cultural Historical Psychology.pdf> > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Dec 20 20:14:40 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 04:14:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed In-Reply-To: References: <5852eedd.17df620a.e0dd.b637@mx.google.com> <1482176550740.26385@iped.uio.no> <39F282D8-7EE4-47AB-9B7A-6BC7D0D6E913@gmail.com> Message-ID: An appropriate remark here, perhaps, is that the use of language and the logical mode of expression may all be beneficially bracketed. "Independent" is valid and useful in the context of a distinction made using formal logic applied to appearances. Yet it is less appropriate when construing phenomena genetically (because 'independent' in this sense merely locates where certain aspects of historically distributed situated activity are housed). But when I assert that "Galina's student dialogues are special kinds of dialogues different to that of conventional understandings of classroom dialogue", I am making a hierarchical (specialisation) distinction (due to the additional constraints) using formal logic about a platform that is considered as a key contribution towards a genetically conceived mode of collaboration and development. In other words, I use formal logic to point out aspects of genetic logic. I say that language may be bracketed too because an important raw material of interest is the image that stems from the orientation to problems (which the dialogues are about) -- effectively the same sort of thing (but more complex) that arises as an after-image from looking at a bright light. I suspect this may be a problem for linguaphiles, because they may have acquired a predilection for jumping on any unclothed thought (image) and dressing it up in words prior to admitting it to consciousness. A key point of real problem-oriented activity is the disciplining, organising, and attendance to this image formation and its gentle coaxing (imagination) which is structured by a genuine encounter with a problem and not merely a verbalised problem. In more mature forms imagination can take on the structure of a relational space that is navigated. Without this discipline, all one can really do is associate, "oh, this reminds of x" etc or fashion things upon the basis of attributes, in which there is little distinction between unicorns and rhinos. To access this imagination all one really needs to do is to contemplate a complex (multi-dimensional) action -- one which requires weighing up, balancing or finding a way through. The dialogue and its special rules help to magnify that process and make it available for reflection. Best, Huw On 20 December 2016 at 17:38, mike cole wrote: > Nicely said, Henry. > > As schematized in your note, Larry, the use of the word, "independent" > struck me rather forcefully. > > What does an "independent" human organism possibly mean when any state of > independence is really a state of "suppressed" INTER-dependencies. No > (wo)man is an island is literally true. Or non-existence. > > Isn't independence just what, in context, we attribute to particular forms > of interdependence? We are always dealing with relations, most proximally > relations between human beings and between human beings interacting as part > of their local ecology. > > Anyway, the notion of independent seems to need bracketing. > > mike > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:04 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > Check this out: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA > watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA> > > > > This mobius metaphor came up some time ago on the chat. Most of us, > myself > > included, wouldn?t have heard and visualized Bach?s Crab Cannon as a > mobius > > strip, but it sure works as music. In the same way discourse wouldn?t be > > (consciously) heard that way either. Yet every dialog ?looks" both > forward > > and backward at every moment, reprising/elaborating on previous turns, > > anticipating future turns. > > > > Henry > > > > > > > On Dec 19, 2016, at 12:42 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > > > > > Oh, I am so glad that this conversation is going on! Thanks Larry for > > your sustained effort to keep it going, to Mike for bringing the author > in, > > and to professor Zuckerman for being so generous to join us. > > > > > > For those of you who, like me, had to go and do a search to see what a > > Mobius Strip was, see an illustration in this youtube video: > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVsIAa2XNKc > > > > > > I really liked the analogy, because any single action on the strip has > > effects that manifest distinctly, yet as a unity, in each side of the > > strip, which very nicely illustrates how one single fact (that of social > > life) manifests both, and yet inherently united within a self-developing > > whole, as the individual and as the social. > > > > > > I would also like to add two articles by F. T. Mikhailov, who writes > > about inter-intrasubjectivity, and speaks of purposively volitional > action > > and freedom (which I think is, at the end of the day, the heart of the > > reflection that professor Zuckerman's chapter speaks about) as "a single > > intra- and intersubjective affect of humane co-being." Mikhailov's > approach > > in these papers is much less empirical, yet I think adds value and a > > beautifully inspiring lenses to approach not only the empirical questions > > that raise in our research, when we try to theorise and provide answers > to > > general questions on [teaching-learning] and development, but also to our > > everyday being together with others, with my children and partner at > home, > > with other teachers and children at the elementary school where I am > > working, etc... I think the power of being mindful to the irreducibly > unity > > of the inter- and the intra- at every step is that, when I approach an > > other, I may wonder not how can I change (teach?) her or him, but how > can I > > change US. This may seem obvious, yet it does not come automatically; > there > > is (reflective!) work to be done. > > > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of mike cole > > > Sent: 19 December 2016 17:48 > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Cc: Galina Zuckerman > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Zukerman resumed > > > > > > Dear Colleagues-- Here is a response to Larry's note of a few days ago > > from > > > Galina Zuckerman. I will send along a copy of the Gordon's paper. > > Original > > > message below. > > > > > > mike > > > ---------------- > > > I am extremely grateful to you and your colleagues for talking about > > > interpsychic action. This is a difficult conversation, so let us move > > > slowly. Today, I will answer only one fragment of the note from that > > > wonderful co-conversationalist (I do not dare call him simply by the > name > > > of Larry - it's too familiar for Russian-speaking people). > > > > > > "The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems > to > > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > > interiorized mental activity." > > > > > > Yes! Yes!!! However, is there any sense in raising the question of what > > is > > > more important - interpsychic or intra-psychic? What's more important > for > > > walking - movement of the left or right foot? Those cultural means > which > > I > > > have already mastered are the primary conditions to enter the new > > > interpsychic space that was closed to me before I have mastered a new > > > cultural means... > > > > > > Also, there is no point in the question of what comes first - > > interpsychic > > > or intrapsychic. In order to join the interpsychic action to meet a > > > partner, I should have some margin of autonomy, initiative ... > > > > > > The Mobius strip is the best symbol of the relationship of INTER and > > INTRA > > > in the development process, in which there is always a moment of > > > SELF-development. > > > > > > I'm afraid to say more because I have not read neither the latest work > of > > > Gordon Wells' work, nor his work "The complimentary contributions of > > > Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994." If > > you > > > can send me a text, please do !!! I owe so much to this talented > author; > > > His book Dialogic inquiry opened for me new ways of research. > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > From: Galina Zuckerman > > > Date: 2016-12-19 4:55 GMT-08:00 > > > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed > > > To: mike cole > > > > > > > > > ??????? ????! > > > > > > > > > ? ??????????? ?????????? ??? ? ????? ???????? ?? ???????? ?? > > > ???????????????? ????????. ??? ??????? ????????, ??????? ??????? > > ????????? > > > ???????????. ??????? ? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ?????????????? > > > ??????????? (?? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? Larry ? ??? > > > ?????????????? ???????? ??? ??????? ??????????). > > > > > > > > > The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems > to > > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > > interiorized mental activity. > > > > > > > > > ??! ??!!! ?????? ???? ?? ????? ? ?????????? ??????? ? ???, ??? ?????? ? > > > ???????????????? ??? ????????????????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ? ???????? > > > ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?????????? ????????, ??????? ? ??? ???????, > > ??? ? > > > ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ? ????? ???????????????? ????????????, > > > ??????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????, ??? ? ??????? ????? ?????????? > > > ????????? > > > > > > > > > ????? ??? ?????? ? ??????? ? ???, ??? ???????? - ???????????????? ??? > > > ????????????????. ??? ???? ????? ?????????????? ? ????????????????? > > > ????????, ????? ??????????? ? ?????????, ? ?????? ???????? ?????-?? > > ??????? > > > ?????????????????, ??????????????? > > > > > > > > > ????? ??????? ? ?????? ?????? ????????? ????? ? ????? ? ???????? > > ????????, > > > ? ??????? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ????????????. > > > > > > > > > ????? ????????? ??????, ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ????????? ????? ??????? > > > ??????, ?? ??? ?????? The complimentary contributions of Halliday and > > > Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994. ???? ?????, > > ???????? > > > ??? ?????, ??????????!!! ? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???????????? > > ??????; > > > ??? ????? *Dialogic* *inquiry* ??????? ??? ???? ????? ???? > ????????????. > > > > > > > > > ?? ????, ?????? ??? ??????? ?????????? ??????????, ?? ?? ???? ?? > > ????????? > > > ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????????? (??. ??????????). > > > > > > > > > ????? ??????-?????? ???????! > > > > > > ???? ???????? > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:48 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Galina -- This is a serious response to your work and it would be > > >> great if you could find time to respond, at least the first part where > > Larry > > >> tries to summarize your view of the intermental. He is trying to be > > >> helpful and build on what people are writing, and some help from you > > would > > >> move the whole discussion along. We will worry about translation at > this > > >> end...... > > >> > > >> Bud' zdorova > > >> > > >> mike > > >> > > >> > > >> mike > > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > >> From: > > >> Date: Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed > > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > >> > > >> > > >> The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > >> actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems > to > > >> put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > >> interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the > > article. > > >> > > >> Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical > > >> activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that > Gordon > > >> Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH > > >> *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan and > > >> coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech > > >> > > >> AND in addition language as > > >> *a medium in which those above activities are SYMBOLICALLY > REPRESENTED, > > >> providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated > ideal > > >> mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech. > > >> > > >> This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual physical > > >> discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority > > given to > > >> the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge moment > > within > > >> the dual nature of language as both external and interior. > > >> > > >> Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all > the > > >> way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon > Wells > > is > > >> exploring. > > >> My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman > article > > on > > >> the priority of the (intermental) > > >> > > >> For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells (The > > >> complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language > Based > > >> Theory of Learning, 1994) > > >> Loose threads being picked up > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > >> > > >> > > > > Problems of the Method of Cultural Historical Psychology.pdf> > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 09:19:28 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 09:19:28 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed In-Reply-To: References: <5852eedd.17df620a.e0dd.b637@mx.google.com> <1482176550740.26385@iped.uio.no> <39F282D8-7EE4-47AB-9B7A-6BC7D0D6E913@gmail.com> Message-ID: <585ab9c0.171f620a.c3263.5b4e@mx.google.com> Mike, Huw, Galina, The schematization i developed was by following Galina?s reasoning of the meaning of (independence). Mike, your focus on the SUPPRESSION of the actuality of inter-dependence in all notions of (independence) as background context seems to lie at the heart of Galina?s article. In my reading her article i imagine her RE-treiving this essential truth that (independence) is actually suppressing the truth of OUR inter-dependence. (intermental). This inter-dependence includes the proximal events (microgenesis) and also i read the article as endorsing the inter-dependence of the four lines of development that interweave within ENDURING relationships that she calls (merging) but i prefer the term (overlapping) relations. Overlapping lines of development indicate all four lines remain distinct needs or desires in ongoing social situations of development. Galina?s article articulates the careful approach required to honour all four distinct inter-dependent lines of development.There seems to be a back and forth movement, an ongoing RE-TREIVAL in the sense of the mobius strip. Now different theories/models seem to emphasize or prioritize one or the other lines of development as being central as a person (independently) is enlisting learning collaboration (communication/joint action/ forms of interaction). Developing the ability to learn as a subject of learning can be elaborated within each distinct line of development that together -interdependently ? overlap. As Galina emphasizes the development of *trust* as inter-dependence requires honouring all four lines of development as they *emerge* in our ongoing relations. Shifting focus to Huw?s addition, introduces another aspect -the priority of the image- to this overlapping ontogenetic inter-depence playing out in our microgenetic proximal relations. The dialogues are *about* the image (as prior). By staying in the slow lane i am bracketing or suppressing the fourth line of development in order to light up the three previous developing lines that the child carries into the classroom on the 1st day of school. If we move too quickly to the fourth line of development we may suppress the vitality and aliveness of the other 3 lines of development. When this happens it becomes necessary to RE -trieve what has been suppressed (withdrawn). The image of the crab manor mobius strip is an image of back and forth RE-trieval and re-suming (lighting up) kinds of independent learning development in place prior to arrival on the 1st day of school. Establishing this actuality is the gift and message that Galina?s article articulates and lays out clearly for her readers to understand (grounding). Moving slowly, back and forth, musically. Merleau-ponty?s image is the mobius strip (singing) the world. Re-turning, re-trieving, re-suming, are images played out in Galina?s exploration of learning the ability to learn as a fourth line of development which requires and makes place (honours) the inter-dependence of the three previous developing lines of development. Galina mentions that when we collapse or suppress the prior three lines of development in schooling situations, emphasizing just reading, writing, content subjects and the fourth line of development we generate (school neurosis). Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Huw Lloyd Sent: December 20, 2016 8:17 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Galina Zuckerman Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed An appropriate remark here, perhaps, is that the use of language and the logical mode of expression may all be beneficially bracketed. "Independent" is valid and useful in the context of a distinction made using formal logic applied to appearances. Yet it is less appropriate when construing phenomena genetically (because 'independent' in this sense merely locates where certain aspects of historically distributed situated activity are housed). But when I assert that "Galina's student dialogues are special kinds of dialogues different to that of conventional understandings of classroom dialogue", I am making a hierarchical (specialisation) distinction (due to the additional constraints) using formal logic about a platform that is considered as a key contribution towards a genetically conceived mode of collaboration and development. In other words, I use formal logic to point out aspects of genetic logic. I say that language may be bracketed too because an important raw material of interest is the image that stems from the orientation to problems (which the dialogues are about) -- effectively the same sort of thing (but more complex) that arises as an after-image from looking at a bright light. I suspect this may be a problem for linguaphiles, because they may have acquired a predilection for jumping on any unclothed thought (image) and dressing it up in words prior to admitting it to consciousness. A key point of real problem-oriented activity is the disciplining, organising, and attendance to this image formation and its gentle coaxing (imagination) which is structured by a genuine encounter with a problem and not merely a verbalised problem. In more mature forms imagination can take on the structure of a relational space that is navigated. Without this discipline, all one can really do is associate, "oh, this reminds of x" etc or fashion things upon the basis of attributes, in which there is little distinction between unicorns and rhinos. To access this imagination all one really needs to do is to contemplate a complex (multi-dimensional) action -- one which requires weighing up, balancing or finding a way through. The dialogue and its special rules help to magnify that process and make it available for reflection. Best, Huw On 20 December 2016 at 17:38, mike cole wrote: > Nicely said, Henry. > > As schematized in your note, Larry, the use of the word, "independent" > struck me rather forcefully. > > What does an "independent" human organism possibly mean when any state of > independence is really a state of "suppressed" INTER-dependencies. No > (wo)man is an island is literally true. Or non-existence. > > Isn't independence just what, in context, we attribute to particular forms > of interdependence? We are always dealing with relations, most proximally > relations between human beings and between human beings interacting as part > of their local ecology. > > Anyway, the notion of independent seems to need bracketing. > > mike > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:04 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > Check this out: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA > watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA> > > > > This mobius metaphor came up some time ago on the chat. Most of us, > myself > > included, wouldn?t have heard and visualized Bach?s Crab Cannon as a > mobius > > strip, but it sure works as music. In the same way discourse wouldn?t be > > (consciously) heard that way either. Yet every dialog ?looks" both > forward > > and backward at every moment, reprising/elaborating on previous turns, > > anticipating future turns. > > > > Henry > > > > > > > On Dec 19, 2016, at 12:42 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > > > > > Oh, I am so glad that this conversation is going on! Thanks Larry for > > your sustained effort to keep it going, to Mike for bringing the author > in, > > and to professor Zuckerman for being so generous to join us. > > > > > > For those of you who, like me, had to go and do a search to see what a > > Mobius Strip was, see an illustration in this youtube video: > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVsIAa2XNKc > > > > > > I really liked the analogy, because any single action on the strip has > > effects that manifest distinctly, yet as a unity, in each side of the > > strip, which very nicely illustrates how one single fact (that of social > > life) manifests both, and yet inherently united within a self-developing > > whole, as the individual and as the social. > > > > > > I would also like to add two articles by F. T. Mikhailov, who writes > > about inter-intrasubjectivity, and speaks of purposively volitional > action > > and freedom (which I think is, at the end of the day, the heart of the > > reflection that professor Zuckerman's chapter speaks about) as "a single > > intra- and intersubjective affect of humane co-being." Mikhailov's > approach > > in these papers is much less empirical, yet I think adds value and a > > beautifully inspiring lenses to approach not only the empirical questions > > that raise in our research, when we try to theorise and provide answers > to > > general questions on [teaching-learning] and development, but also to our > > everyday being together with others, with my children and partner at > home, > > with other teachers and children at the elementary school where I am > > working, etc... I think the power of being mindful to the irreducibly > unity > > of the inter- and the intra- at every step is that, when I approach an > > other, I may wonder not how can I change (teach?) her or him, but how > can I > > change US. This may seem obvious, yet it does not come automatically; > there > > is (reflective!) work to be done. > > > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of mike cole > > > Sent: 19 December 2016 17:48 > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Cc: Galina Zuckerman > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Zukerman resumed > > > > > > Dear Colleagues-- Here is a response to Larry's note of a few days ago > > from > > > Galina Zuckerman. I will send along a copy of the Gordon's paper. > > Original > > > message below. > > > > > > mike > > > ---------------- > > > I am extremely grateful to you and your colleagues for talking about > > > interpsychic action. This is a difficult conversation, so let us move > > > slowly. Today, I will answer only one fragment of the note from that > > > wonderful co-conversationalist (I do not dare call him simply by the > name > > > of Larry - it's too familiar for Russian-speaking people). > > > > > > "The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems > to > > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > > interiorized mental activity." > > > > > > Yes! Yes!!! However, is there any sense in raising the question of what > > is > > > more important - interpsychic or intra-psychic? What's more important > for > > > walking - movement of the left or right foot? Those cultural means > which > > I > > > have already mastered are the primary conditions to enter the new > > > interpsychic space that was closed to me before I have mastered a new > > > cultural means... > > > > > > Also, there is no point in the question of what comes first - > > interpsychic > > > or intrapsychic. In order to join the interpsychic action to meet a > > > partner, I should have some margin of autonomy, initiative ... > > > > > > The Mobius strip is the best symbol of the relationship of INTER and > > INTRA > > > in the development process, in which there is always a moment of > > > SELF-development. > > > > > > I'm afraid to say more because I have not read neither the latest work > of > > > Gordon Wells' work, nor his work "The complimentary contributions of > > > Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994." If > > you > > > can send me a text, please do !!! I owe so much to this talented > author; > > > His book Dialogic inquiry opened for me new ways of research. > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > From: Galina Zuckerman > > > Date: 2016-12-19 4:55 GMT-08:00 > > > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed > > > To: mike cole > > > > > > > > > ??????? ????! > > > > > > > > > ? ??????????? ?????????? ??? ? ????? ???????? ?? ???????? ?? > > > ???????????????? ????????. ??? ??????? ????????, ??????? ??????? > > ????????? > > > ???????????. ??????? ? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ?????????????? > > > ??????????? (?? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? Larry ? ??? > > > ?????????????? ???????? ??? ??????? ??????????). > > > > > > > > > The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems > to > > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > > interiorized mental activity. > > > > > > > > > ??! ??!!! ?????? ???? ?? ????? ? ?????????? ??????? ? ???, ??? ?????? ? > > > ???????????????? ??? ????????????????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ? ???????? > > > ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?????????? ????????, ??????? ? ??? ???????, > > ??? ? > > > ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ? ????? ???????????????? ????????????, > > > ??????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????, ??? ? ??????? ????? ?????????? > > > ????????? > > > > > > > > > ????? ??? ?????? ? ??????? ? ???, ??? ???????? - ???????????????? ??? > > > ????????????????. ??? ???? ????? ?????????????? ? ????????????????? > > > ????????, ????? ??????????? ? ?????????, ? ?????? ???????? ?????-?? > > ??????? > > > ?????????????????, ??????????????? > > > > > > > > > ????? ??????? ? ?????? ?????? ????????? ????? ? ????? ? ???????? > > ????????, > > > ? ??????? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ????????????. > > > > > > > > > ????? ????????? ??????, ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ????????? ????? ??????? > > > ??????, ?? ??? ?????? The complimentary contributions of Halliday and > > > Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994. ???? ?????, > > ???????? > > > ??? ?????, ??????????!!! ? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???????????? > > ??????; > > > ??? ????? *Dialogic* *inquiry* ??????? ??? ???? ????? ???? > ????????????. > > > > > > > > > ?? ????, ?????? ??? ??????? ?????????? ??????????, ?? ?? ???? ?? > > ????????? > > > ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????????? (??. ??????????). > > > > > > > > > ????? ??????-?????? ???????! > > > > > > ???? ???????? > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:48 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Galina -- This is a serious response to your work and it would be > > >> great if you could find time to respond, at least the first part where > > Larry > > >> tries to summarize your view of the intermental. He is trying to be > > >> helpful and build on what people are writing, and some help from you > > would > > >> move the whole discussion along. We will worry about translation at > this > > >> end...... > > >> > > >> Bud' zdorova > > >> > > >> mike > > >> > > >> > > >> mike > > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > >> From: > > >> Date: Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed > > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > >> > > >> > > >> The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > >> actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems > to > > >> put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > >> interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the > > article. > > >> > > >> Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical > > >> activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that > Gordon > > >> Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH > > >> *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan and > > >> coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech > > >> > > >> AND in addition language as > > >> *a medium in which those above activities are SYMBOLICALLY > REPRESENTED, > > >> providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated > ideal > > >> mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech. > > >> > > >> This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual physical > > >> discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority > > given to > > >> the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge moment > > within > > >> the dual nature of language as both external and interior. > > >> > > >> Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all > the > > >> way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon > Wells > > is > > >> exploring. > > >> My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman > article > > on > > >> the priority of the (intermental) > > >> > > >> For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells (The > > >> complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language > Based > > >> Theory of Learning, 1994) > > >> Loose threads being picked up > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > >> > > >> > > > > Problems of the Method of Cultural Historical Psychology.pdf> > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Dec 21 13:04:16 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:04:16 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed In-Reply-To: <585ab9c0.171f620a.c3263.5b4e@mx.google.com> References: <5852eedd.17df620a.e0dd.b637@mx.google.com> <1482176550740.26385@iped.uio.no> <39F282D8-7EE4-47AB-9B7A-6BC7D0D6E913@gmail.com> <585ab9c0.171f620a.c3263.5b4e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Here is Galina's reply to the discussion before David's, Huw's and Larry's notes. I do not vouch for a couple of parts of the translation. Its the best that I could manage. The quotation from Buber in particular is just back translation. Happy winter Soltice, Galina! mike ......................... You raise immediately a lot of important issues, each of which requires unhurried reflection. Let me start with my favorite issues --- the idea in normal development no age period ceases to exist. This is not my idea, I received it as a gift from the great Erik Erikson, who wrote that no age crisis should be resolved definitively, that the problem of each crisis, the main choice at every age -- is [really] the work of a lifetime, and it is this work helps any normally developing person to continue his/her own movements himself, the search for oneself. [Not sure or translation here! - MC Yes, Mike, of course ?What does an" independent "human organism possibly mean when any state of independence is really a state of" suppressed "INTER-dependencies. <...> Is not independence just what, in context, we attribute to particular forms of interdependence? We are always dealing with relations, most proximally relations between human beings and between human beings interacting as part of their local ecology. However, this understanding of oneself as a being woven from human relations, co-created in these relations and creatomg these very relations is complicated by the creative idea of the uniqueness and intrinsic value of the human "I" that is, to my taste, was best expressed by Martin Buber: Rabbi Zusya, before his death said: "In the world to come will they ask me, why didnt you become Moses? Will they ask me, ' why you were not Zeus'?" The same idea was expressed by Buber greater detail, but vaguely: "Each of us has to follow their own path, to open something that belongs only to him, to do what no one before him did not commit. Each person brings to the world something new, something unique and unprecedented. Everyone in Israel must know and remember that he is the only one of its kind, because he has no equal in the world. After all, if not so, and I would have been here exactly the kind of person you would not need it in the world, and therefore he would not be born here at this time. This unique one has to bring to perfection. For as long as there is this, and postponed the coming of the Messiah ... (Martin Buber. Human Path) So, we are again confronted with the contradictions of the relations of together and and individually. But now I'm not talking about the beginning point, the birth of human ability, but of the directions of this development. And with this turn of thought proper scientific perspective merges with the deeply personal, existential. As in Alfredo's meditation: ?The power of being mindful to the irreducibly unity of the inter- and the intra- at every step is that, when I approach an other, I may wonder not how can I change (teach?) Her or him, but how can I change US. This may seem obvious, yet it does not come automatically; there is (reflective!) work to be done. ? Congratulations to all on today's holiday - the winter solstice: the planet has turned back to the light! With thanks, Galina On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 9:19 AM, wrote: > Mike, Huw, Galina, > The schematization i developed was by following Galina?s reasoning of the > meaning of (independence). > Mike, your focus on the SUPPRESSION of the actuality of inter-dependence > in all notions of (independence) as background context seems to lie at the > heart of Galina?s article. In my reading her article i imagine her > RE-treiving this essential truth that (independence) is actually > suppressing the truth of OUR inter-dependence. (intermental). > > This inter-dependence includes the proximal events (microgenesis) and also > i read the article as endorsing the inter-dependence of the four lines of > development that interweave within ENDURING relationships that she calls > (merging) but i prefer the term (overlapping) relations. Overlapping lines > of development indicate all four lines remain distinct needs or desires in > ongoing social situations of development. Galina?s article articulates the > careful approach required to honour all four distinct inter-dependent lines > of development.There seems to be a back and forth movement, an ongoing > RE-TREIVAL in the sense of the mobius strip. Now different theories/models > seem to emphasize or prioritize one or the other lines of development as > being central as a person (independently) is enlisting learning > collaboration (communication/joint action/ forms of interaction). > Developing the ability to learn as a subject of learning can be elaborated > within each distinct line of development that together -interdependently ? > overlap. As Galina emphasizes the development of *trust* as > inter-dependence requires honouring all four lines of development as they > *emerge* in our ongoing relations. > > Shifting focus to Huw?s addition, introduces another aspect -the priority > of the image- to this overlapping ontogenetic inter-depence playing out in > our microgenetic proximal relations. The dialogues are *about* the image > (as prior). > > By staying in the slow lane i am bracketing or suppressing the fourth line > of development in order to light up the three previous developing lines > that the child carries into the classroom on the 1st day of school. If we > move too quickly to the fourth line of development we may suppress the > vitality and aliveness of the other 3 lines of development. When this > happens it becomes necessary to RE -trieve what has been suppressed > (withdrawn). > The image of the crab manor mobius strip is an image of back and forth > RE-trieval and re-suming (lighting up) kinds of independent learning > development in place prior to arrival on the 1st day of school. > Establishing this actuality is the gift and message that Galina?s article > articulates and lays out clearly for her readers to understand (grounding). > > Moving slowly, back and forth, musically. Merleau-ponty?s image is the > mobius strip (singing) the world. Re-turning, re-trieving, re-suming, are > images played out in Galina?s exploration of learning the ability to learn > as a fourth line of development which requires and makes place (honours) > the inter-dependence of the three previous developing lines of development. > > Galina mentions that when we collapse or suppress the prior three lines of > development in schooling situations, emphasizing just reading, writing, > content subjects and the fourth line of development we generate (school > neurosis). > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Huw Lloyd > Sent: December 20, 2016 8:17 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: Galina Zuckerman > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed > > An appropriate remark here, perhaps, is that the use of language and the > logical mode of expression may all be beneficially bracketed. > "Independent" is valid and useful in the context of a distinction made > using formal logic applied to appearances. Yet it is less appropriate when > construing phenomena genetically (because 'independent' in this sense > merely locates where certain aspects of historically distributed situated > activity are housed). But when I assert that "Galina's student dialogues > are special kinds of dialogues different to that of conventional > understandings of classroom dialogue", I am making a hierarchical > (specialisation) distinction (due to the additional constraints) using > formal logic about a platform that is considered as a key contribution > towards a genetically conceived mode of collaboration and development. In > other words, I use formal logic to point out aspects of genetic logic. > > I say that language may be bracketed too because an important raw material > of interest is the image that stems from the orientation to problems (which > the dialogues are about) -- effectively the same sort of thing (but more > complex) that arises as an after-image from looking at a bright light. I > suspect this may be a problem for linguaphiles, because they may have > acquired a predilection for jumping on any unclothed thought (image) and > dressing it up in words prior to admitting it to consciousness. A key > point of real problem-oriented activity is the disciplining, organising, > and attendance to this image formation and its gentle coaxing (imagination) > which is structured by a genuine encounter with a problem and not merely a > verbalised problem. In more mature forms imagination can take on the > structure of a relational space that is navigated. Without this > discipline, all one can really do is associate, "oh, this reminds of x" etc > or fashion things upon the basis of attributes, in which there is little > distinction between unicorns and rhinos. > > To access this imagination all one really needs to do is to contemplate a > complex (multi-dimensional) action -- one which requires weighing up, > balancing or finding a way through. The dialogue and its special rules help > to magnify that process and make it available for reflection. > > Best, > Huw > > > On 20 December 2016 at 17:38, mike cole wrote: > > > Nicely said, Henry. > > > > As schematized in your note, Larry, the use of the word, "independent" > > struck me rather forcefully. > > > > What does an "independent" human organism possibly mean when any state of > > independence is really a state of "suppressed" INTER-dependencies. No > > (wo)man is an island is literally true. Or non-existence. > > > > Isn't independence just what, in context, we attribute to particular > forms > > of interdependence? We are always dealing with relations, most > proximally > > relations between human beings and between human beings interacting as > part > > of their local ecology. > > > > Anyway, the notion of independent seems to need bracketing. > > > > mike > > > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:04 PM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > > > Check this out: > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA > > watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA> > > > > > > This mobius metaphor came up some time ago on the chat. Most of us, > > myself > > > included, wouldn?t have heard and visualized Bach?s Crab Cannon as a > > mobius > > > strip, but it sure works as music. In the same way discourse wouldn?t > be > > > (consciously) heard that way either. Yet every dialog ?looks" both > > forward > > > and backward at every moment, reprising/elaborating on previous turns, > > > anticipating future turns. > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 19, 2016, at 12:42 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Oh, I am so glad that this conversation is going on! Thanks Larry for > > > your sustained effort to keep it going, to Mike for bringing the author > > in, > > > and to professor Zuckerman for being so generous to join us. > > > > > > > > For those of you who, like me, had to go and do a search to see what > a > > > Mobius Strip was, see an illustration in this youtube video: > > > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVsIAa2XNKc > > > > > > > > I really liked the analogy, because any single action on the strip > has > > > effects that manifest distinctly, yet as a unity, in each side of the > > > strip, which very nicely illustrates how one single fact (that of > social > > > life) manifests both, and yet inherently united within a > self-developing > > > whole, as the individual and as the social. > > > > > > > > I would also like to add two articles by F. T. Mikhailov, who writes > > > about inter-intrasubjectivity, and speaks of purposively volitional > > action > > > and freedom (which I think is, at the end of the day, the heart of the > > > reflection that professor Zuckerman's chapter speaks about) as "a > single > > > intra- and intersubjective affect of humane co-being." Mikhailov's > > approach > > > in these papers is much less empirical, yet I think adds value and a > > > beautifully inspiring lenses to approach not only the empirical > questions > > > that raise in our research, when we try to theorise and provide answers > > to > > > general questions on [teaching-learning] and development, but also to > our > > > everyday being together with others, with my children and partner at > > home, > > > with other teachers and children at the elementary school where I am > > > working, etc... I think the power of being mindful to the irreducibly > > unity > > > of the inter- and the intra- at every step is that, when I approach an > > > other, I may wonder not how can I change (teach?) her or him, but how > > can I > > > change US. This may seem obvious, yet it does not come automatically; > > there > > > is (reflective!) work to be done. > > > > > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu > > > > > > on behalf of mike cole > > > > Sent: 19 December 2016 17:48 > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > Cc: Galina Zuckerman > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Zukerman resumed > > > > > > > > Dear Colleagues-- Here is a response to Larry's note of a few days > ago > > > from > > > > Galina Zuckerman. I will send along a copy of the Gordon's paper. > > > Original > > > > message below. > > > > > > > > mike > > > > ---------------- > > > > I am extremely grateful to you and your colleagues for talking about > > > > interpsychic action. This is a difficult conversation, so let us move > > > > slowly. Today, I will answer only one fragment of the note from that > > > > wonderful co-conversationalist (I do not dare call him simply by the > > name > > > > of Larry - it's too familiar for Russian-speaking people). > > > > > > > > "The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems > > to > > > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > > > interiorized mental activity." > > > > > > > > Yes! Yes!!! However, is there any sense in raising the question of > what > > > is > > > > more important - interpsychic or intra-psychic? What's more important > > for > > > > walking - movement of the left or right foot? Those cultural means > > which > > > I > > > > have already mastered are the primary conditions to enter the new > > > > interpsychic space that was closed to me before I have mastered a new > > > > cultural means... > > > > > > > > Also, there is no point in the question of what comes first - > > > interpsychic > > > > or intrapsychic. In order to join the interpsychic action to meet a > > > > partner, I should have some margin of autonomy, initiative ... > > > > > > > > The Mobius strip is the best symbol of the relationship of INTER and > > > INTRA > > > > in the development process, in which there is always a moment of > > > > SELF-development. > > > > > > > > I'm afraid to say more because I have not read neither the latest > work > > of > > > > Gordon Wells' work, nor his work "The complimentary contributions of > > > > Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994." > If > > > you > > > > can send me a text, please do !!! I owe so much to this talented > > author; > > > > His book Dialogic inquiry opened for me new ways of research. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > From: Galina Zuckerman > > > > Date: 2016-12-19 4:55 GMT-08:00 > > > > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed > > > > To: mike cole > > > > > > > > > > > > ??????? ????! > > > > > > > > > > > > ? ??????????? ?????????? ??? ? ????? ???????? ?? ???????? ?? > > > > ???????????????? ????????. ??? ??????? ????????, ??????? ??????? > > > ????????? > > > > ???????????. ??????? ? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ?????????????? > > > > ??????????? (?? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? Larry ? ??? > > > > ?????????????? ???????? ??? ??????? ??????????). > > > > > > > > > > > > The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems > > to > > > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > > > interiorized mental activity. > > > > > > > > > > > > ??! ??!!! ?????? ???? ?? ????? ? ?????????? ??????? ? ???, ??? > ?????? ? > > > > ???????????????? ??? ????????????????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ? > ???????? > > > > ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?????????? ????????, ??????? ? ??? ???????, > > > ??? ? > > > > ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ? ????? ???????????????? > ????????????, > > > > ??????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????, ??? ? ??????? ????? ?????????? > > > > ????????? > > > > > > > > > > > > ????? ??? ?????? ? ??????? ? ???, ??? ???????? - ???????????????? ??? > > > > ????????????????. ??? ???? ????? ?????????????? ? ????????????????? > > > > ????????, ????? ??????????? ? ?????????, ? ?????? ???????? ?????-?? > > > ??????? > > > > ?????????????????, ??????????????? > > > > > > > > > > > > ????? ??????? ? ?????? ?????? ????????? ????? ? ????? ? ???????? > > > ????????, > > > > ? ??????? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ????????????. > > > > > > > > > > > > ????? ????????? ??????, ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ????????? ????? ??????? > > > > ??????, ?? ??? ?????? The complimentary contributions of Halliday and > > > > Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994. ???? ?????, > > > ???????? > > > > ??? ?????, ??????????!!! ? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???????????? > > > ??????; > > > > ??? ????? *Dialogic* *inquiry* ??????? ??? ???? ????? ???? > > ????????????. > > > > > > > > > > > > ?? ????, ?????? ??? ??????? ?????????? ??????????, ?? ?? ???? ?? > > > ????????? > > > > ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????????? (??. ??????????). > > > > > > > > > > > > ????? ??????-?????? ???????! > > > > > > > > ???? ???????? > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:48 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > >> Dear Galina -- This is a serious response to your work and it would > be > > > >> great if you could find time to respond, at least the first part > where > > > Larry > > > >> tries to summarize your view of the intermental. He is trying to be > > > >> helpful and build on what people are writing, and some help from you > > > would > > > >> move the whole discussion along. We will worry about translation at > > this > > > >> end...... > > > >> > > > >> Bud' zdorova > > > >> > > > >> mike > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> mike > > > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > >> From: > > > >> Date: Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM > > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed > > > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > > >> actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and > seems > > to > > > >> put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > > >> interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the > > > article. > > > >> > > > >> Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical > > > >> activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that > > Gordon > > > >> Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH > > > >> *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan and > > > >> coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech > > > >> > > > >> AND in addition language as > > > >> *a medium in which those above activities are SYMBOLICALLY > > REPRESENTED, > > > >> providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated > > ideal > > > >> mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech. > > > >> > > > >> This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual > physical > > > >> discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority > > > given to > > > >> the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge moment > > > within > > > >> the dual nature of language as both external and interior. > > > >> > > > >> Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all > > the > > > >> way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon > > Wells > > > is > > > >> exploring. > > > >> My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman > > article > > > on > > > >> the priority of the (intermental) > > > >> > > > >> For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells > (The > > > >> complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language > > Based > > > >> Theory of Learning, 1994) > > > >> Loose threads being picked up > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > Problems of the Method of Cultural Historical Psychology.pdf> > > > > > > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Dec 21 17:24:23 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 01:24:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed In-Reply-To: References: <5852eedd.17df620a.e0dd.b637@mx.google.com> <1482176550740.26385@iped.uio.no> <39F282D8-7EE4-47AB-9B7A-6BC7D0D6E913@gmail.com> <585ab9c0.171f620a.c3263.5b4e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: For anyone who has been contemplating the two areas of interest I have been questioning (orientation vs acted role with respect to 'voice'; peers vs teacher focused collaboration) Galina's paper "Child?Adult Interaction That Creates a Zone of Proximal Development" (2007, JREEP 45:3) provides some (supportive) elaboration (p. 49 & 51). I have a minor quibble with perhaps an inadvertent presentation of traditional education as constituting an educational choice as path of development (p.62). This, to my mind, undermines a technical consideration of development with respect to re-organisations that are made possible through the student's initiative. I would not call a process that expands and becomes more efficient, but that doesn't reorganise, a developmental process in the spirit of developmental education. On this basis, I would also consider it to be a surprising outcome that a traditionally educational process could move much beyond the inculcation of formal logic, because richer logics entail construed relations that I believe would be difficult to arrive at (i.e. understand) without a student's own initiative. Best, Huw On 21 December 2016 at 21:04, mike cole wrote: > Here is Galina's reply to the discussion before David's, Huw's and Larry's > notes. I do not vouch for a couple of parts of the translation. Its the > best that I could manage. The quotation from Buber in particular is just > back translation. > > Happy winter Soltice, Galina! > > mike > ......................... > You raise immediately a lot of important issues, each of which requires > unhurried reflection. Let me start with my favorite issues --- the idea in > normal development no age period ceases to exist. This is not my idea, I > received it as a gift from the great Erik Erikson, who wrote that no age > crisis should be resolved definitively, that the problem of each crisis, > the main choice at every age -- is [really] the work of a lifetime, and it > is this work helps any normally developing person to continue his/her own > movements himself, the search for oneself. [Not sure or translation here! - > MC > > Yes, Mike, of course ?What does an" independent "human organism possibly > mean when any state of independence is really a state of" suppressed > "INTER-dependencies. <...> Is not independence just what, in context, we > attribute to particular forms of interdependence? We are always dealing > with relations, most proximally relations between human beings and between > human beings interacting as part of their local ecology. > > However, this understanding of oneself as a being woven from human > relations, co-created in these relations and creatomg these very relations > is complicated by the creative idea of the uniqueness and intrinsic value > of the human "I" that is, to my taste, was best expressed by Martin Buber: > > Rabbi Zusya, before his death said: "In the world to come will they ask > me, why didnt you become Moses? Will they ask me, ' why you were not Zeus'?" > > The same idea was expressed by Buber greater detail, but vaguely: > "Each of us has to follow their own path, to open something that belongs > only to him, to do what no one before him did not commit. Each person > brings to the world something new, something unique and unprecedented. > Everyone in Israel must know and remember that he is the only one of its > kind, because he has no equal in the world. After all, if not so, and I > would have been here exactly the kind of person you would not need it in > the world, and therefore he would not be born here at this time. This > unique one has to bring to perfection. For as long as there is this, and > postponed the coming of the Messiah ... (Martin Buber. Human Path) > > So, we are again confronted with the contradictions of the relations of > together and and individually. But now I'm not talking about the beginning > point, the birth of human ability, but of the directions of this > development. And with this turn of thought proper scientific perspective > merges with the deeply personal, existential. As in Alfredo's meditation: > ?The power of being mindful to the irreducibly unity of the inter- and the > intra- at every step is that, when I approach an other, I may wonder not > how can I change (teach?) Her or him, but how can I change US. This may > seem obvious, yet it does not come automatically; there is (reflective!) > work to be done. ? > > > Congratulations to all on today's holiday - the winter solstice: the > planet has turned back to the light! > > With thanks, > Galina > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 9:19 AM, wrote: > >> Mike, Huw, Galina, >> The schematization i developed was by following Galina?s reasoning of the >> meaning of (independence). >> Mike, your focus on the SUPPRESSION of the actuality of inter-dependence >> in all notions of (independence) as background context seems to lie at the >> heart of Galina?s article. In my reading her article i imagine her >> RE-treiving this essential truth that (independence) is actually >> suppressing the truth of OUR inter-dependence. (intermental). >> >> This inter-dependence includes the proximal events (microgenesis) and >> also i read the article as endorsing the inter-dependence of the four >> lines of development that interweave within ENDURING relationships that she >> calls (merging) but i prefer the term (overlapping) relations. Overlapping >> lines of development indicate all four lines remain distinct needs or >> desires in ongoing social situations of development. Galina?s article >> articulates the careful approach required to honour all four distinct >> inter-dependent lines of development.There seems to be a back and forth >> movement, an ongoing RE-TREIVAL in the sense of the mobius strip. Now >> different theories/models seem to emphasize or prioritize one or the other >> lines of development as being central as a person (independently) is >> enlisting learning collaboration (communication/joint action/ forms of >> interaction). Developing the ability to learn as a subject of learning can >> be elaborated within each distinct line of development that together >> -interdependently ? overlap. As Galina emphasizes the development of >> *trust* as inter-dependence requires honouring all four lines of >> development as they *emerge* in our ongoing relations. >> >> Shifting focus to Huw?s addition, introduces another aspect -the priority >> of the image- to this overlapping ontogenetic inter-depence playing out in >> our microgenetic proximal relations. The dialogues are *about* the image >> (as prior). >> >> By staying in the slow lane i am bracketing or suppressing the fourth >> line of development in order to light up the three previous developing >> lines that the child carries into the classroom on the 1st day of school. >> If we move too quickly to the fourth line of development we may suppress >> the vitality and aliveness of the other 3 lines of development. When this >> happens it becomes necessary to RE -trieve what has been suppressed >> (withdrawn). >> The image of the crab manor mobius strip is an image of back and forth >> RE-trieval and re-suming (lighting up) kinds of independent learning >> development in place prior to arrival on the 1st day of school. >> Establishing this actuality is the gift and message that Galina?s article >> articulates and lays out clearly for her readers to understand (grounding). >> >> Moving slowly, back and forth, musically. Merleau-ponty?s image is the >> mobius strip (singing) the world. Re-turning, re-trieving, re-suming, are >> images played out in Galina?s exploration of learning the ability to learn >> as a fourth line of development which requires and makes place (honours) >> the inter-dependence of the three previous developing lines of development. >> >> Galina mentions that when we collapse or suppress the prior three lines >> of development in schooling situations, emphasizing just reading, writing, >> content subjects and the fourth line of development we generate (school >> neurosis). >> >> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> From: Huw Lloyd >> Sent: December 20, 2016 8:17 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: Galina Zuckerman >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed >> >> An appropriate remark here, perhaps, is that the use of language and the >> logical mode of expression may all be beneficially bracketed. >> "Independent" is valid and useful in the context of a distinction made >> using formal logic applied to appearances. Yet it is less appropriate when >> construing phenomena genetically (because 'independent' in this sense >> merely locates where certain aspects of historically distributed situated >> activity are housed). But when I assert that "Galina's student dialogues >> are special kinds of dialogues different to that of conventional >> understandings of classroom dialogue", I am making a hierarchical >> (specialisation) distinction (due to the additional constraints) using >> formal logic about a platform that is considered as a key contribution >> towards a genetically conceived mode of collaboration and development. In >> other words, I use formal logic to point out aspects of genetic logic. >> >> I say that language may be bracketed too because an important raw material >> of interest is the image that stems from the orientation to problems >> (which >> the dialogues are about) -- effectively the same sort of thing (but more >> complex) that arises as an after-image from looking at a bright light. I >> suspect this may be a problem for linguaphiles, because they may have >> acquired a predilection for jumping on any unclothed thought (image) and >> dressing it up in words prior to admitting it to consciousness. A key >> point of real problem-oriented activity is the disciplining, organising, >> and attendance to this image formation and its gentle coaxing >> (imagination) >> which is structured by a genuine encounter with a problem and not merely a >> verbalised problem. In more mature forms imagination can take on the >> structure of a relational space that is navigated. Without this >> discipline, all one can really do is associate, "oh, this reminds of x" >> etc >> or fashion things upon the basis of attributes, in which there is little >> distinction between unicorns and rhinos. >> >> To access this imagination all one really needs to do is to contemplate a >> complex (multi-dimensional) action -- one which requires weighing up, >> balancing or finding a way through. The dialogue and its special rules >> help >> to magnify that process and make it available for reflection. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> On 20 December 2016 at 17:38, mike cole wrote: >> >> > Nicely said, Henry. >> > >> > As schematized in your note, Larry, the use of the word, "independent" >> > struck me rather forcefully. >> > >> > What does an "independent" human organism possibly mean when any state >> of >> > independence is really a state of "suppressed" INTER-dependencies. No >> > (wo)man is an island is literally true. Or non-existence. >> > >> > Isn't independence just what, in context, we attribute to particular >> forms >> > of interdependence? We are always dealing with relations, most >> proximally >> > relations between human beings and between human beings interacting as >> part >> > of their local ecology. >> > >> > Anyway, the notion of independent seems to need bracketing. >> > >> > mike >> > >> > On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:04 PM, HENRY SHONERD >> wrote: >> > >> > > Check this out: >> > > >> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA > > > watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA> >> > > >> > > This mobius metaphor came up some time ago on the chat. Most of us, >> > myself >> > > included, wouldn?t have heard and visualized Bach?s Crab Cannon as a >> > mobius >> > > strip, but it sure works as music. In the same way discourse wouldn?t >> be >> > > (consciously) heard that way either. Yet every dialog ?looks" both >> > forward >> > > and backward at every moment, reprising/elaborating on previous turns, >> > > anticipating future turns. >> > > >> > > Henry >> > > >> > > >> > > > On Dec 19, 2016, at 12:42 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < >> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> >> > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Oh, I am so glad that this conversation is going on! Thanks Larry >> for >> > > your sustained effort to keep it going, to Mike for bringing the >> author >> > in, >> > > and to professor Zuckerman for being so generous to join us. >> > > > >> > > > For those of you who, like me, had to go and do a search to see >> what a >> > > Mobius Strip was, see an illustration in this youtube video: >> > > > >> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVsIAa2XNKc >> > > > >> > > > I really liked the analogy, because any single action on the strip >> has >> > > effects that manifest distinctly, yet as a unity, in each side of the >> > > strip, which very nicely illustrates how one single fact (that of >> social >> > > life) manifests both, and yet inherently united within a >> self-developing >> > > whole, as the individual and as the social. >> > > > >> > > > I would also like to add two articles by F. T. Mikhailov, who writes >> > > about inter-intrasubjectivity, and speaks of purposively volitional >> > action >> > > and freedom (which I think is, at the end of the day, the heart of the >> > > reflection that professor Zuckerman's chapter speaks about) as "a >> single >> > > intra- and intersubjective affect of humane co-being." Mikhailov's >> > approach >> > > in these papers is much less empirical, yet I think adds value and a >> > > beautifully inspiring lenses to approach not only the empirical >> questions >> > > that raise in our research, when we try to theorise and provide >> answers >> > to >> > > general questions on [teaching-learning] and development, but also to >> our >> > > everyday being together with others, with my children and partner at >> > home, >> > > with other teachers and children at the elementary school where I am >> > > working, etc... I think the power of being mindful to the irreducibly >> > unity >> > > of the inter- and the intra- at every step is that, when I approach an >> > > other, I may wonder not how can I change (teach?) her or him, but how >> > can I >> > > change US. This may seem obvious, yet it does not come automatically; >> > there >> > > is (reflective!) work to be done. >> > > > >> > > > Alfredo >> > > > >> > > > ________________________________________ >> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> > > >> > > on behalf of mike cole >> > > > Sent: 19 December 2016 17:48 >> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > > > Cc: Galina Zuckerman >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Zukerman resumed >> > > > >> > > > Dear Colleagues-- Here is a response to Larry's note of a few days >> ago >> > > from >> > > > Galina Zuckerman. I will send along a copy of the Gordon's paper. >> > > Original >> > > > message below. >> > > > >> > > > mike >> > > > ---------------- >> > > > I am extremely grateful to you and your colleagues for talking about >> > > > interpsychic action. This is a difficult conversation, so let us >> move >> > > > slowly. Today, I will answer only one fragment of the note from that >> > > > wonderful co-conversationalist (I do not dare call him simply by the >> > name >> > > > of Larry - it's too familiar for Russian-speaking people). >> > > > >> > > > "The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons >> > > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and >> seems >> > to >> > > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own >> > > > interiorized mental activity." >> > > > >> > > > Yes! Yes!!! However, is there any sense in raising the question of >> what >> > > is >> > > > more important - interpsychic or intra-psychic? What's more >> important >> > for >> > > > walking - movement of the left or right foot? Those cultural means >> > which >> > > I >> > > > have already mastered are the primary conditions to enter the new >> > > > interpsychic space that was closed to me before I have mastered a >> new >> > > > cultural means... >> > > > >> > > > Also, there is no point in the question of what comes first - >> > > interpsychic >> > > > or intrapsychic. In order to join the interpsychic action to meet a >> > > > partner, I should have some margin of autonomy, initiative ... >> > > > >> > > > The Mobius strip is the best symbol of the relationship of INTER and >> > > INTRA >> > > > in the development process, in which there is always a moment of >> > > > SELF-development. >> > > > >> > > > I'm afraid to say more because I have not read neither the latest >> work >> > of >> > > > Gordon Wells' work, nor his work "The complimentary contributions of >> > > > Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, >> 1994." If >> > > you >> > > > can send me a text, please do !!! I owe so much to this talented >> > author; >> > > > His book Dialogic inquiry opened for me new ways of research. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> > > > From: Galina Zuckerman >> > > > Date: 2016-12-19 4:55 GMT-08:00 >> > > > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed >> > > > To: mike cole >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ??????? ????! >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ? ??????????? ?????????? ??? ? ????? ???????? ?? ???????? ?? >> > > > ???????????????? ????????. ??? ??????? ????????, ??????? ??????? >> > > ????????? >> > > > ???????????. ??????? ? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ?????????????? >> > > > ??????????? (?? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? Larry ? ??? >> > > > ?????????????? ???????? ??? ??????? ??????????). >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons >> > > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and >> seems >> > to >> > > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own >> > > > interiorized mental activity. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ??! ??!!! ?????? ???? ?? ????? ? ?????????? ??????? ? ???, ??? >> ?????? ? >> > > > ???????????????? ??? ????????????????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ? >> ???????? >> > > > ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?????????? ????????, ??????? ? ??? >> ???????, >> > > ??? ? >> > > > ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ? ????? ???????????????? >> ????????????, >> > > > ??????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????, ??? ? ??????? ????? >> ?????????? >> > > > ????????? >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ????? ??? ?????? ? ??????? ? ???, ??? ???????? - ???????????????? >> ??? >> > > > ????????????????. ??? ???? ????? ?????????????? ? ????????????????? >> > > > ????????, ????? ??????????? ? ?????????, ? ?????? ???????? ?????-?? >> > > ??????? >> > > > ?????????????????, ??????????????? >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ????? ??????? ? ?????? ?????? ????????? ????? ? ????? ? ???????? >> > > ????????, >> > > > ? ??????? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ????????????. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ????? ????????? ??????, ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ????????? ????? ??????? >> > > > ??????, ?? ??? ?????? The complimentary contributions of Halliday >> and >> > > > Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994. ???? ?????, >> > > ???????? >> > > > ??? ?????, ??????????!!! ? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???????????? >> > > ??????; >> > > > ??? ????? *Dialogic* *inquiry* ??????? ??? ???? ????? ???? >> > ????????????. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ?? ????, ?????? ??? ??????? ?????????? ??????????, ?? ?? ???? ?? >> > > ????????? >> > > > ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????????? (??. ??????????). >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ????? ??????-?????? ???????! >> > > > >> > > > ???? ???????? >> > > > >> > > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:48 PM, mike cole wrote: >> > > > >> > > >> Dear Galina -- This is a serious response to your work and it >> would be >> > > >> great if you could find time to respond, at least the first part >> where >> > > Larry >> > > >> tries to summarize your view of the intermental. He is trying to be >> > > >> helpful and build on what people are writing, and some help from >> you >> > > would >> > > >> move the whole discussion along. We will worry about translation at >> > this >> > > >> end...... >> > > >> >> > > >> Bud' zdorova >> > > >> >> > > >> mike >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> mike >> > > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> > > >> From: >> > > >> Date: Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM >> > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed >> > > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons >> > > >> actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and >> seems >> > to >> > > >> put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own >> > > >> interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the >> > > article. >> > > >> >> > > >> Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical >> > > >> activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that >> > Gordon >> > > >> Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH >> > > >> *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan >> and >> > > >> coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech >> > > >> >> > > >> AND in addition language as >> > > >> *a medium in which those above activities are SYMBOLICALLY >> > REPRESENTED, >> > > >> providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated >> > ideal >> > > >> mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech. >> > > >> >> > > >> This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual >> physical >> > > >> discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority >> > > given to >> > > >> the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge >> moment >> > > within >> > > >> the dual nature of language as both external and interior. >> > > >> >> > > >> Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all >> > the >> > > >> way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon >> > Wells >> > > is >> > > >> exploring. >> > > >> My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman >> > article >> > > on >> > > >> the priority of the (intermental) >> > > >> >> > > >> For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells >> (The >> > > >> complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language >> > Based >> > > >> Theory of Learning, 1994) >> > > >> Loose threads being picked up >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > > > > > Problems of the Method of Cultural Historical Psychology.pdf> >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Dec 22 10:05:00 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 10:05:00 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed In-Reply-To: References: <5852eedd.17df620a.e0dd.b637@mx.google.com> <1482176550740.26385@iped.uio.no> <39F282D8-7EE4-47AB-9B7A-6BC7D0D6E913@gmail.com> <585ab9c0.171f620a.c3263.5b4e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <585c15d4.8a38620a.749ff.f84b@mx.google.com> Galina, Happy winter solstice as the planet is t*turning back* to the light. This image of the light returning compliments the other image of the Mobius strip as *re-vealing* a truth that shows up through the back and forth temporal dimensions [future, past present]. Your reflective response to Mike in 7 paragraphs is carrying forward a theme imaging both the turning back to the light and the continuing re-trieval through the Mobius strip. The theme of the deeply personal existential person in relation with the proper scientific perspective. I want to move through what may seem to be mere repetition [or mirroring] but in fact is retrieval and resumption to the truths embodied in your 7 paragraphs. This close reading [keeping proximal] as itself a method of engagement that expresses your abiding theme. What can be referred to as a slow reading in the slow lane. *paragraph 1: Your favorite issues that in normal development no age ceases to exist. A gift from Erik Erikson that reverberates and continues through your work [and play]. This insight [bringing to light] you received as a gift RE-cognizing that no crisis is RE-solved definitively. Each stage continues to circulate as the work [and play] of a lifetime. AND this work [and play] of a lifetime is both learning collaboration [communication, joint action, forms of interaction] with the search for oneself [the deeply personal, existential]. The continual play of the Mobius strip. *paragraph 2: Galina RE-produces Mike?s paragraph in its entirety. However this is NOT mere RE-petition because it is now placed in a new context [social situation of the developing theme]. The Mobius strip playing out. The need to bracket [independence] as a notion that needs to be RE-thought as for example in these 8 paragraphs. A movement of RE-joining and RE-trieval as articulating the mystery of the existential depths. *paragraph 3: The opening of this 3rd paragraph with [however] RE-flecting back to paragraph 2 [understanding oneself AS a being woven from human relations, CO-created in these relations & creating these very relations] and then adding the RE-cognition of the creative idea of the uniqueness and INTRINSIC value of the human *I* that was best expressed by Martin Buber. This brings in the Judaic tradition [the prophetic tradition] and is a possible line to follow. The notion of G_d as having withdrawn from the world and it is our human(ity) that will RE-call us back to *our* true nature. *paragraph 4: Offering as exemplar the say of Rabbi Zusya: ?In the world to come will they ask you, why did you not become Moses? Will they ask, why did you not become Zeus?? This question speaks for itself and as exemplary needs no explanation *paragraph 5: Rabbi Zusya?s same idea was expressed by Buber [within the Judaic prophetic tradition]. This path as abbreviated to *the human path* as meaning something very distinct for Martin Buber. We bring our unique existential deeply personal [self] to the world at *this particular* time [a prophetic time] and to understand Martin Buber & Rabbi Zusya [and possibly Vygotsky] we must RE-trieve and RE-join this prophetic tradition for *our* time. *paragraph 7: Opens with ?so? and continues with ?we are? AGAIN [once again as if for the 1st time] CON-fronted with the CON-tradictions of the relations of together & individually. But there is a shift in focus, no longer talking about the birth of human ability but rather a RE-focusing on the *directions of this development*. And with THIS *turn* of thought proper scientific perspective *merges with* the deeply personal existential. The question BE-coming no longer how can I change [teach] her or him but how can *I* change *us*. This is the true *human path*. Galina mentions this may seem obvious, however I suggest this obviousness may be concealed or suppressed and does not *come* naturally or automatically into the world. There is work [and play] *to be* done [furture tense]. This work to be done requires RE-flectivity, RE-trieval, RE-sumption, of what has been suppressed. That the existential *I* and the existential *us* reside in a space created through the *human path*. On this solstice, when light is RE-turning to the world I wanted to travel on a slow walk with Galina as she brings her *message* into our world. When reading her article articulating the human path through developmental stages as a message bringing gifts at this season. Benjamin?s Angel seeing history as one calamity after another may require the RE-trieval of the spirit Galina is articulating as the *human path* in which human[ity] is RE-born. Happy winter solstice to each of us at this darkest time. Thank *you* all for this opportunity to RE-engage with this deeply personal and properly scientific theme. Larry Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: mike cole Sent: December 21, 2016 1:07 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Galina Zuckerman Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed Here is Galina's reply to the discussion before David's, Huw's and Larry's notes. I do not vouch for a couple of parts of the translation. Its the best that I could manage. The quotation from Buber in particular is just back translation. Re-cognizing that Happy winter Soltice, Galina! mike ......................... You raise immediately a lot of important issues, each of which requires unhurried reflection. Let me start with my favorite issues --- the idea in normal development no age period ceases to exist. This is not my idea, I received it as a gift from the great Erik Erikson, who wrote that no age crisis should be resolved definitively, that the problem of each crisis, the main choice at every age -- is [really] the work of a lifetime, and it is this work helps any normally developing person to continue his/her own movements himself, the search for oneself. [Not sure or translation here! - MC Yes, Mike, of course ?What does an" independent "human organism possibly mean when any state of independence is really a state of" suppressed "INTER-dependencies. <...> Is not independence just what, in context, we attribute to particular forms of interdependence? We are always dealing with relations, most proximally relations between human beings and betweensya human beings interacting as part of their local ecology. However, this understanding of oneself as a being woven from human relations, co-created in these relations and creatomg these very relations is complicated by the creative idea of the uniqueness and intrinsic value of the human "I" that is, to my taste, was best expressed by Martin Buber: Rabbi Zusya, before his death said: "In the world to come will they ask me, why didnt you become Moses? Will they ask me, ' why you were not Zeus'?" The same idea was expressed by Buber greater detail, but vaguely: "Each of us has to follow their own path, to open something that belongs only to him, to do what no one before him did not commit. Each person brings to the world something new, something unique and unprecedented. Everyone in Israel must know and remember that he is the only one of its kind, because he has no equal in the world. After all, if not so, and I would have been here exactly the kind of person you would not need it in the world, and therefore he would not be born here at this time. This unique one has to bring to perfection. For as long as there is this, and postponed the coming of the Messiah ... (Martin Buber. Human Path) So, we are again confronted with the contradictions of the relations of together and and individually. But now I'm not talking about the beginning point, the birth of human ability, but of the directions of this development. And with this turn of thought proper scientific perspective merges with the deeply personal, existential. As in Alfredo's meditation: ?The power of being mindful to the irreducibly unity of the inter- and the intra- at every step is that, when I approach an other, I may wonder not how can I change (teach?) Her or him, but how can I change US. This may seem obvious, yet it does not come automatically; there is (reflective!) work to be done. ? Congratulations to all on today's holiday - the winter solstice: the planet has turned back to the light! With thanks, Galina On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 9:19 AM, wrote: > Mike, Huw, Galina, > The schematization i developed was by following Galina?s reasoning of the > meaning of (independence). > Mike, your focus on the SUPPRESSION of the actuality of inter-dependence > in all notions of (independence) as background context seems to lie at the > heart of Galina?s article. In my reading her article i imagine her > RE-treiving this essential truth that (independence) is actually > suppressing the truth of OUR inter-dependence. (intermental). > > This inter-dependence includes the proximal events (microgenesis) and also > i read the article as endorsing the inter-dependence of the four lines of > development that interweave within ENDURING relationships that she calls > (merging) but i prefer the term (overlapping) relations. Overlapping lines > of development indicate all four lines remain distinct needs or desires in > ongoing social situations of development. Galina?s article articulates the > careful approach required to honour all four distinct inter-dependent lines > of development.There seems to be a back and forth movement, an ongoing > RE-TREIVAL in the sense of the mobius strip. Now different theories/models > seem to emphasize or prioritize one or the other lines of development as > being central as a person (independently) is enlisting learning > collaboration (communication/joint action/ forms of interaction). > Developing the ability to learn as a subject of learning can be elaborated > within each distinct line of development that together -interdependently ? > overlap. As Galina emphasizes the development of *trust* as > inter-dependence requires honouring all four lines of development as they > *emerge* in our ongoing relations. > > Shifting focus to Huw?s addition, introduces another aspect -the priority > of the image- to this overlapping ontogenetic inter-depence playing out in > our microgenetic proximal relations. The dialogues are *about* the image > (as prior). > > By staying in the slow lane i am bracketing or suppressing the fourth line > of development in order to light up the three previous developing lines > that the child carries into the classroom on the 1st day of school. If we > move too quickly to the fourth line of development we may suppress the > vitality and aliveness of the other 3 lines of development. When this > happens it becomes necessary to RE -trieve what has been suppressed > (withdrawn). > The image of the crab manor mobius strip is an image of back and forth > RE-trieval and re-suming (lighting up) kinds of independent learning > development in place prior to arrival on the 1st day of school. > Establishing this actuality is the gift and message that Galina?s article > articulates and lays out clearly for her readers to understand (grounding). > > Moving slowly, back and forth, musically. Merleau-ponty?s image is the > mobius strip (singing) the world. Re-turning, re-trieving, re-suming, are > images played out in Galina?s exploration of learning the ability to learn > as a fourth line of development which requires and makes place (honours) > the inter-dependence of the three previous developing lines of development. > > Galina mentions that when we collapse or suppress the prior three lines of > development in schooling situations, emphasizing just reading, writing, > content subjects and the fourth line of development we generate (school > neurosis). > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Huw Lloyd > Sent: December 20, 2016 8:17 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: Galina Zuckerman > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed > > An appropriate remark here, perhaps, is that the use of language and the > logical mode of expression may all be beneficially bracketed. > "Independent" is valid and useful in the context of a distinction made > using formal logic applied to appearances. Yet it is less appropriate when > construing phenomena genetically (because 'independent' in this sense > merely locates where certain aspects of historically distributed situated > activity are housed). But when I assert that "Galina's student dialogues > are special kinds of dialogues different to that of conventional > understandings of classroom dialogue", I am making a hierarchical > (specialisation) distinction (due to the additional constraints) using > formal logic about a platform that is considered as a key contribution > towards a genetically conceived mode of collaboration and development. In > other words, I use formal logic to point out aspects of genetic logic. > > I say that language may be bracketed too because an important raw material > of interest is the image that stems from the orientation to problems (which > the dialogues are about) -- effectively the same sort of thing (but more > complex) that arises as an after-image from looking at a bright light. I > suspect this may be a problem for linguaphiles, because they may have > acquired a predilection for jumping on any unclothed thought (image) and > dressing it up in words prior to admitting it to consciousness. A key > point of real problem-oriented activity is the disciplining, organising, > and attendance to this image formation and its gentle coaxing (imagination) > which is structured by a genuine encounter with a problem and not merely a > verbalised problem. In more mature forms imagination can take on the > structure of a relational space that is navigated. Without this > discipline, all one can really do is associate, "oh, this reminds of x" etc > or fashion things upon the basis of attributes, in which there is little > distinction between unicorns and rhinos. > > To access this imagination all one really needs to do is to contemplate a > complex (multi-dimensional) action -- one which requires weighing up, > balancing or finding a way through. The dialogue and its special rules help > to magnify that process and make it available for reflection. > > Best, > Huw > > > On 20 December 2016 at 17:38, mike cole wrote: > > > Nicely said, Henry. > > > > As schematized in your note, Larry, the use of the word, "independent" > > struck me rather forcefully. > > > > What does an "independent" human organism possibly mean when any state of > > independence is really a state of "suppressed" INTER-dependencies. No > > (wo)man is an island is literally true. Or non-existence. > > > > Isn't independence just what, in context, we attribute to particular > forms > > of interdependence? We are always dealing with relations, most > proximally > > relations between human beings and between human beings interacting as > part > > of their local ecology. > > > > Anyway, the notion of independent seems to need bracketing. > > > > mike > > > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:04 PM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > > > Check this out: > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA > > watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA> > > > > > > This mobius metaphor came up some time ago on the chat. Most of us, > > myself > > > included, wouldn?t have heard and visualized Bach?s Crab Cannon as a > > mobius > > > strip, but it sure works as music. In the same way discourse wouldn?t > be > > > (consciously) heard that way either. Yet every dialog ?looks" both > > forward > > > and backward at every moment, reprising/elaborating on previous turns, > > > anticipating future turns. > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 19, 2016, at 12:42 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Oh, I am so glad that this conversation is going on! Thanks Larry for > > > your sustained effort to keep it going, to Mike for bringing the author > > in, > > > and to professor Zuckerman for being so generous to join us. > > > > > > > > For those of you who, like me, had to go and do a search to see what > a > > > Mobius Strip was, see an illustration in this youtube video: > > > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVsIAa2XNKc > > > > > > > > I really liked the analogy, because any single action on the strip > has > > > effects that manifest distinctly, yet as a unity, in each side of the > > > strip, which very nicely illustrates how one single fact (that of > social > > > life) manifests both, and yet inherently united within a > self-developing > > > whole, as the individual and as the social. > > > > > > > > I would also like to add two articles by F. T. Mikhailov, who writes > > > about inter-intrasubjectivity, and speaks of purposively volitional > > action > > > and freedom (which I think is, at the end of the day, the heart of the > > > reflection that professor Zuckerman's chapter speaks about) as "a > single > > > intra- and intersubjective affect of humane co-being." Mikhailov's > > approach > > > in these papers is much less empirical, yet I think adds value and a > > > beautifully inspiring lenses to approach not only the empirical > questions > > > that raise in our research, when we try to theorise and provide answers > > to > > > general questions on [teaching-learning] and development, but also to > our > > > everyday being together with others, with my children and partner at > > home, > > > with other teachers and children at the elementary school where I am > > > working, etc... I think the power of being mindful to the irreducibly > > unity > > > of the inter- and the intra- at every step is that, when I approach an > > > other, I may wonder not how can I change (teach?) her or him, but how > > can I > > > change US. This may seem obvious, yet it does not come automatically; > > there > > > is (reflective!) work to be done. > > > > > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu > > > > > > on behalf of mike cole > > > > Sent: 19 December 2016 17:48 > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > Cc: Galina Zuckerman > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Zukerman resumed > > > > > > > > Dear Colleagues-- Here is a response to Larry's note of a few days > ago > > > from > > > > Galina Zuckerman. I will send along a copy of the Gordon's paper. > > > Original > > > > message below. > > > > > > > > mike > > > > ---------------- > > > > I am extremely grateful to you and your colleagues for talking about > > > > interpsychic action. This is a difficult conversation, so let us move > > > > slowly. Today, I will answer only one fragment of the note from that > > > > wonderful co-conversationalist (I do not dare call him simply by the > > name > > > > of Larry - it's too familiar for Russian-speaking people). > > > > > > > > "The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems > > to > > > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > > > interiorized mental activity." > > > > > > > > Yes! Yes!!! However, is there any sense in raising the question of > what > > > is > > > > more important - interpsychic or intra-psychic? What's more important > > for > > > > walking - movement of the left or right foot? Those cultural means > > which > > > I > > > > have already mastered are the primary conditions to enter the new > > > > interpsychic space that was closed to me before I have mastered a new > > > > cultural means... > > > > > > > > Also, there is no point in the question of what comes first - > > > interpsychic > > > > or intrapsychic. In order to join the interpsychic action to meet a > > > > partner, I should have some margin of autonomy, initiative ... > > > > > > > > The Mobius strip is the best symbol of the relationship of INTER and > > > INTRA > > > > in the development process, in which there is always a moment of > > > > SELF-development. > > > > > > > > I'm afraid to say more because I have not read neither the latest > work > > of > > > > Gordon Wells' work, nor his work "The complimentary contributions of > > > > Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994." > If > > > you > > > > can send me a text, please do !!! I owe so much to this talented > > author; > > > > His book Dialogic inquiry opened for me new ways of research. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > From: Galina Zuckerman > > > > Date: 2016-12-19 4:55 GMT-08:00 > > > > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed > > > > To: mike cole > > > > > > > > > > > > ??????? ????! > > > > > > > > > > > > ? ??????????? ?????????? ??? ? ????? ???????? ?? ???????? ?? > > > > ???????????????? ????????. ??? ??????? ????????, ??????? ??????? > > > ????????? > > > > ???????????. ??????? ? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ?????????????? > > > > ??????????? (?? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? Larry ? ??? > > > > ?????????????? ???????? ??? ??????? ??????????). > > > > > > > > > > > > The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems > > to > > > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > > > interiorized mental activity. > > > > > > > > > > > > ??! ??!!! ?????? ???? ?? ????? ? ?????????? ??????? ? ???, ??? > ?????? ? > > > > ???????????????? ??? ????????????????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ? > ???????? > > > > ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?????????? ????????, ??????? ? ??? ???????, > > > ??? ? > > > > ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ? ????? ???????????????? > ????????????, > > > > ??????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????, ??? ? ??????? ????? ?????????? > > > > ????????? > > > > > > > > > > > > ????? ??? ?????? ? ??????? ? ???, ??? ???????? - ???????????????? ??? > > > > ????????????????. ??? ???? ????? ?????????????? ? ????????????????? > > > > ????????, ????? ??????????? ? ?????????, ? ?????? ???????? ?????-?? > > > ??????? > > > > ?????????????????, ??????????????? > > > > > > > > > > > > ????? ??????? ? ?????? ?????? ????????? ????? ? ????? ? ???????? > > > ????????, > > > > ? ??????? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ????????????. > > > > > > > > > > > > ????? ????????? ??????, ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ????????? ????? ??????? > > > > ??????, ?? ??? ?????? The complimentary contributions of Halliday and > > > > Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994. ???? ?????, > > > ???????? > > > > ??? ?????, ??????????!!! ? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???????????? > > > ??????; > > > > ??? ????? *Dialogic* *inquiry* ??????? ??? ???? ????? ???? > > ????????????. > > > > > > > > > > > > ?? ????, ?????? ??? ??????? ?????????? ??????????, ?? ?? ???? ?? > > > ????????? > > > > ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????????? (??. ??????????). > > > > > > > > > > > > ????? ??????-?????? ???????! > > > > > > > > ???? ???????? > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:48 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > >> Dear Galina -- This is a serious response to your work and it would > be > > > >> great if you could find time to respond, at least the first part > where > > > Larry > > > >> tries to summarize your view of the intermental. He is trying to be > > > >> helpful and build on what people are writing, and some help from you > > > would > > > >> move the whole discussion along. We will worry about translation at > > this > > > >> end...... > > > >> > > > >> Bud' zdorova > > > >> > > > >> mike > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> mike > > > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > >> From: > > > >> Date: Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM > > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed > > > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons > > > >> actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and > seems > > to > > > >> put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one?s own > > > >> interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the > > > article. > > > >> > > > >> Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical > > > >> activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that > > Gordon > > > >> Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH > > > >> *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan and > > > >> coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech > > > >> > > > >> AND in addition language as > > > >> *a medium in which those above activities are SYMBOLICALLY > > REPRESENTED, > > > >> providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated > > ideal > > > >> mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech. > > > >> > > > >> This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual > physical > > > >> discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority > > > given to > > > >> the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge moment > > > within > > > >> the dual nature of language as both external and interior. > > > >> > > > >> Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all > > the > > > >> way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon > > Wells > > > is > > > >> exploring. > > > >> My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman > > article > > > on > > > >> the priority of the (intermental) > > > >> > > > >> For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells > (The > > > >> complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language > > Based > > > >> Theory of Learning, 1994) > > > >> Loose threads being picked up > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > Problems of the Method of Cultural Historical Psychology.pdf> > > > > > > > > > > From shirinvossoughi@gmail.com Tue Dec 27 11:45:33 2016 From: shirinvossoughi@gmail.com (Shirin Vossoughi) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 13:45:33 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] post doc position Message-ID: Dear all, I'm writing to share the announcement for a post doc position at Northwestern that may be of interest to folks in XMCA. Please feel free to email me if you have any questions. Thank you, Shirin -- Shirin Vossoughi Assistant Professor School of Education & Social Policy | Northwestern University http://www.sesp.northwestern.edu/profile/?p=22753&/ShirinVossoughi/ 424 298 7573 <(424)%20298-7573> (cell) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Postdoc Position_Northwestern.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 61690 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161227/0489eb24/attachment.pdf From shirinvossoughi@gmail.com Tue Dec 27 17:06:08 2016 From: shirinvossoughi@gmail.com (Shirin Vossoughi) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 19:06:08 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] *corrected* announcement Message-ID: One of the dates on the original announcement was one year off -- here is the corrected version Thanks, Shirin -- Shirin Vossoughi Assistant Professor School of Education & Social Policy | Northwestern University http://www.sesp.northwestern.edu/profile/?p=22753&/ShirinVossoughi/ 424 298 7573 <(424)%20298-7573> (cell) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Postdoc Position_Northwestern.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 60070 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161227/21f91b48/attachment.pdf