From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Oct 1 08:21:40 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 16:21:40 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] imagination and controlling the perception of visual illusions. Message-ID: I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation of a tube train: https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little interesting to discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception of the direction of the train. Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining that I can see an object within the train moving in the direction I wish, so that perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the perception of the train can be shuttled back and forth. I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London would influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at which the train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming into a platform would usually, I think, be going slower. Best, Huw From dkirsh@lsu.edu Thu Oct 1 09:01:10 2015 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 16:01:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visual illusions. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huw, That's the neatest thing I've seen in a long time. I have no idea what the underlying psychological process might be that enables this perceptual control of the train's direction, nor what its broader implications might be for our conceptual construction of the world. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2015 10:22 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] imagination and controlling the perception of visual illusions. I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation of a tube train: https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little interesting to discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception of the direction of the train. Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining that I can see an object within the train moving in the direction I wish, so that perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the perception of the train can be shuttled back and forth. I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London would influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at which the train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming into a platform would usually, I think, be going slower. Best, Huw From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Oct 1 09:05:36 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 10:05:36 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visual illusions. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lovely Huw! You say that the speed of the train suggests that it is going away. But why would you assume that a train would be coming into a platform from the right? (my experience with most CTA platforms in Chicago is that, from the perspective of a person standing on the platform, they enter from the left). It seems that you are entirely correct in suggesting that how we see things depends on culture (qua memories/experience/expectancies - e.g. from which direction a train enters a station - reminds me of an old story the German spy in England who was able to go unnoticed until, upon crossing an empty street, he looked to the left before crossing). Cheers, greg p.s. And thanks for this - I'll use it for my Anthro of Experience class since we have been doing visual perception! And I'm a sucker for a good illusion. This also seems an opportune time to remind all of Etienne and Mike's paper Minding the Gap. Their degradation of the stimulus example comes to mind as another nice example of perception being mediated by culture and history. On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation of a tube > train: > > > https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php > > Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little interesting to > discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception of the > direction of the train. > > Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining that I > can see an object within the train moving in the direction I wish, so that > perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the perception of the > train can be shuttled back and forth. > > I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London would > influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at which the > train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming into a > platform would usually, I think, be going slower. > > Best, > Huw > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Oct 1 09:18:52 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 09:18:52 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visual illusions. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Super interesting. Let me see if I can intrigue a perception expert. mike On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 9:05 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Lovely Huw! > > You say that the speed of the train suggests that it is going away. But why > would you assume that a train would be coming into a platform from the > right? (my experience with most CTA platforms in Chicago is that, from the > perspective of a person standing on the platform, they enter from the > left). > > It seems that you are entirely correct in suggesting that how we see things > depends on culture (qua memories/experience/expectancies - e.g. from which > direction a train enters a station - reminds me of an old story the German > spy in England who was able to go unnoticed until, upon crossing an empty > street, he looked to the left before crossing). > > Cheers, > greg > > p.s. And thanks for this - I'll use it for my Anthro of Experience class > since we have been doing visual perception! And I'm a sucker for a good > illusion. > This also seems an opportune time to remind all of Etienne and Mike's paper > Minding the Gap. Their degradation of the stimulus example comes to mind as > another nice example of perception being mediated by culture and history. > > > > On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation of a > tube > > train: > > > > > > > https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php > > > > Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little interesting to > > discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception of the > > direction of the train. > > > > Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining that I > > can see an object within the train moving in the direction I wish, so > that > > perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the perception of the > > train can be shuttled back and forth. > > > > I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London would > > influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at which the > > train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming into a > > platform would usually, I think, be going slower. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Oct 1 10:48:16 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 17:48:16 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visual illusions. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <582685FB-0551-4A40-87E7-BE29CF1ACD70@uniandes.edu.co> Because in England we drive on the other side of the street! I've never thought about it before, but my memory of Tube trains is that they come from the right. Martin On Oct 1, 2015, at 11:18 AM, mike cole wrote: >> You say that the speed of the train suggests that it is going away. But why >> would you assume that a train would be coming into a platform from the >> right? (my experience with most CTA platforms in Chicago is that, from the >> perspective of a person standing on the platform, they enter from the >> left). From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Oct 1 11:08:06 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 19:08:06 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visual illusions. In-Reply-To: <582685FB-0551-4A40-87E7-BE29CF1ACD70@uniandes.edu.co> References: <582685FB-0551-4A40-87E7-BE29CF1ACD70@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: In the London tube (underground) trains _can_ come from the right with respect to the platform -- at least, I do have memories of them doing so for _certain_ platforms. But on the whole I think they usually come from the left. With respect to the construction of this particular illusion, I think that the speed of the train is a function of the step in the image sequence, which is a function of a necessarily disparate gap between frames so that there is no obvious continuity of the people/distinct objects within the train. So I suspect the impression of the train speed is coincidental and not related to real speeds (other than not being too obviously fast). I haven't looked at it for long, but what I've found is that the train (for me) first goes away from the platform, it takes me a short while to bring it back the other way (maybe 5 seconds), then after a few seconds to switch to outbound again, and thereafter I'm able to switch it back and forth with relative immediacy aided with a bit of imagination. Best, Huw On 1 October 2015 at 18:48, Martin John Packer wrote: > Because in England we drive on the other side of the street! I've never > thought about it before, but my memory of Tube trains is that they come > from the right. > > Martin > > On Oct 1, 2015, at 11:18 AM, mike cole wrote: > > >> You say that the speed of the train suggests that it is going away. But > why > >> would you assume that a train would be coming into a platform from the > >> right? (my experience with most CTA platforms in Chicago is that, from > the > >> perspective of a person standing on the platform, they enter from the > >> left). > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Oct 1 11:11:02 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 18:11:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visual illusions. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A6C4216-DC8A-4B78-A593-22CEC4770E1E@uniandes.edu.co> Huw, Might this be an artifact of the digital encoding of the video? Could you head to a tube station and try it with a real train? :) Martin On Oct 1, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation of a tube > train: > > https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php > > Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little interesting to > discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception of the > direction of the train. > > Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining that I > can see an object within the train moving in the direction I wish, so that > perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the perception of the > train can be shuttled back and forth. > > I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London would > influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at which the > train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming into a > platform would usually, I think, be going slower. > > Best, > Huw From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Oct 1 11:13:52 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 19:13:52 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visual illusions. In-Reply-To: <2A6C4216-DC8A-4B78-A593-22CEC4770E1E@uniandes.edu.co> References: <2A6C4216-DC8A-4B78-A593-22CEC4770E1E@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: On 1 October 2015 at 19:11, Martin John Packer wrote: > Huw, > > Might this be an artifact of the digital encoding of the video? > > Could you head to a tube station and try it with a real train? :) > I suspect you'd need strobe lighting. Huw > > Martin > > On Oct 1, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation of a > tube > > train: > > > > > https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php > > > > Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little interesting to > > discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception of the > > direction of the train. > > > > Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining that I > > can see an object within the train moving in the direction I wish, so > that > > perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the perception of the > > train can be shuttled back and forth. > > > > I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London would > > influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at which the > > train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming into a > > platform would usually, I think, be going slower. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Oct 1 11:16:54 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 19:16:54 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visual illusions. In-Reply-To: References: <2A6C4216-DC8A-4B78-A593-22CEC4770E1E@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: On 1 October 2015 at 19:13, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > On 1 October 2015 at 19:11, Martin John Packer > wrote: > >> Huw, >> >> Might this be an artifact of the digital encoding of the video? >> >> Could you head to a tube station and try it with a real train? :) >> > > I suspect you'd need strobe lighting. > > Huw > E.g. https://vimeo.com/116582567 > > >> >> Martin >> >> On Oct 1, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >> > I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation of a >> tube >> > train: >> > >> > >> https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php >> > >> > Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little interesting to >> > discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception of the >> > direction of the train. >> > >> > Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining that >> I >> > can see an object within the train moving in the direction I wish, so >> that >> > perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the perception of >> the >> > train can be shuttled back and forth. >> > >> > I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London would >> > influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at which >> the >> > train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming into a >> > platform would usually, I think, be going slower. >> > >> > Best, >> > Huw >> >> >> > From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Thu Oct 1 11:20:10 2015 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 18:20:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visual illusions. In-Reply-To: References: <2A6C4216-DC8A-4B78-A593-22CEC4770E1E@uniandes.edu.co> , Message-ID: <20151001182008.5955728.16935.7507@ucdenver.edu> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. Original Message From: Huw Lloyd Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2015 12:19 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Reply To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visual illusions. On 1 October 2015 at 19:13, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > On 1 October 2015 at 19:11, Martin John Packer > wrote: > >> Huw, >> >> Might this be an artifact of the digital encoding of the video? >> >> Could you head to a tube station and try it with a real train? :) >> > > I suspect you'd need strobe lighting. > > Huw > E.g. https://vimeo.com/116582567 > > >> >> Martin >> >> On Oct 1, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >> > I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation of a >> tube >> > train: >> > >> > >> https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php >> > >> > Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little interesting to >> > discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception of the >> > direction of the train. >> > >> > Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining that >> I >> > can see an object within the train moving in the direction I wish, so >> that >> > perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the perception of >> the >> > train can be shuttled back and forth. >> > >> > I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London would >> > influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at which >> the >> > train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming into a >> > platform would usually, I think, be going slower. >> > >> > Best, >> > Huw >> >> >> > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Oct 1 11:27:36 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 18:27:36 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visual illusions. In-Reply-To: References: <2A6C4216-DC8A-4B78-A593-22CEC4770E1E@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <4824F9FE-003B-4844-B9A6-2C188194A0B0@uniandes.edu.co> So it's filling the gap again! :) Martin On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:16 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > On 1 October 2015 at 19:13, Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> >> >> On 1 October 2015 at 19:11, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >> >>> Huw, >>> >>> Might this be an artifact of the digital encoding of the video? >>> >>> Could you head to a tube station and try it with a real train? :) >>> >> >> I suspect you'd need strobe lighting. >> >> Huw >> > > E.g. > > https://vimeo.com/116582567 > > > >> >> >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: >>> >>>> I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation of a >>> tube >>>> train: >>>> >>>> >>> https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php >>>> >>>> Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little interesting to >>>> discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception of the >>>> direction of the train. >>>> >>>> Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining that >>> I >>>> can see an object within the train moving in the direction I wish, so >>> that >>>> perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the perception of >>> the >>>> train can be shuttled back and forth. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London would >>>> influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at which >>> the >>>> train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming into a >>>> platform would usually, I think, be going slower. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Huw >>> >>> >>> >> From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Oct 1 12:06:02 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 20:06:02 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visual illusions. In-Reply-To: <4824F9FE-003B-4844-B9A6-2C188194A0B0@uniandes.edu.co> References: <2A6C4216-DC8A-4B78-A593-22CEC4770E1E@uniandes.edu.co> <4824F9FE-003B-4844-B9A6-2C188194A0B0@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: On 1 October 2015 at 19:27, Martin John Packer wrote: > So it's filling the gap again! :) > Or minding it, yes. > > Martin > > On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:16 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > On 1 October 2015 at 19:13, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> On 1 October 2015 at 19:11, Martin John Packer > > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Huw, > >>> > >>> Might this be an artifact of the digital encoding of the video? > >>> > >>> Could you head to a tube station and try it with a real train? :) > >>> > >> > >> I suspect you'd need strobe lighting. > >> > >> Huw > >> > > > > E.g. > > > > https://vimeo.com/116582567 > > > > > > > >> > >> > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >>> > >>>> I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation of a > >>> tube > >>>> train: > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php > >>>> > >>>> Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little interesting > to > >>>> discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception of > the > >>>> direction of the train. > >>>> > >>>> Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining > that > >>> I > >>>> can see an object within the train moving in the direction I wish, so > >>> that > >>>> perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the perception of > >>> the > >>>> train can be shuttled back and forth. > >>>> > >>>> I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London > would > >>>> influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at which > >>> the > >>>> train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming into a > >>>> platform would usually, I think, be going slower. > >>>> > >>>> Best, > >>>> Huw > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu Oct 1 12:38:15 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 13:38:15 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visual illusions. In-Reply-To: References: <2A6C4216-DC8A-4B78-A593-22CEC4770E1E@uniandes.edu.co> <4824F9FE-003B-4844-B9A6-2C188194A0B0@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <6FDA5448-952A-4FEC-B452-AFD43F15B107@gmail.com> Something that has intrigued me, and may be relevant to the thread, has been how I can ?freeze? the movement of my overhead fans by voluntarily jerking my eyes back and forth as I gaze at the revolving fan blades. When I keep my eyes fixed, the blades blur. When I jerk my eyes back and forth, the blades seem to stop. Or so I perceive it. In the Pelaprat & Cole article (2011) on mending the gap, Etienne and Mike discuss saccadic eye movements as ?central to the perception of the world?. Henry > On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > On 1 October 2015 at 19:27, Martin John Packer > wrote: > >> So it's filling the gap again! :) >> > > Or minding it, yes. > > >> >> Martin >> >> On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:16 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >>> On 1 October 2015 at 19:13, Huw Lloyd wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 1 October 2015 at 19:11, Martin John Packer >> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Huw, >>>>> >>>>> Might this be an artifact of the digital encoding of the video? >>>>> >>>>> Could you head to a tube station and try it with a real train? :) >>>>> >>>> >>>> I suspect you'd need strobe lighting. >>>> >>>> Huw >>>> >>> >>> E.g. >>> >>> https://vimeo.com/116582567 >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation of a >>>>> tube >>>>>> train: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >> https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php >>>>>> >>>>>> Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little interesting >> to >>>>>> discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception of >> the >>>>>> direction of the train. >>>>>> >>>>>> Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining >> that >>>>> I >>>>>> can see an object within the train moving in the direction I wish, so >>>>> that >>>>>> perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the perception of >>>>> the >>>>>> train can be shuttled back and forth. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London >> would >>>>>> influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at which >>>>> the >>>>>> train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming into a >>>>>> platform would usually, I think, be going slower. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> >> >> From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Oct 1 13:33:56 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 21:33:56 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visual illusions. In-Reply-To: <6FDA5448-952A-4FEC-B452-AFD43F15B107@gmail.com> References: <2A6C4216-DC8A-4B78-A593-22CEC4770E1E@uniandes.edu.co> <4824F9FE-003B-4844-B9A6-2C188194A0B0@uniandes.edu.co> <6FDA5448-952A-4FEC-B452-AFD43F15B107@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1 October 2015 at 20:38, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Something that has intrigued me, and may be relevant to the thread, has > been how I can ?freeze? the movement of my overhead fans by voluntarily > jerking my eyes back and forth as I gaze at the revolving fan blades. When > I keep my eyes fixed, the blades blur. When I jerk my eyes back and forth, > the blades seem to stop. Or so I perceive it. In the Pelaprat & Cole > article (2011) on mending the gap, Etienne and Mike discuss saccadic eye > movements as ?central to the perception of the world?. > Which is possibly how the imagination trick works, Henry. By regulating eye movements through predicting where an imaginary object will be next. I expect Mike will be coming back with more detail. Best, Huw > Henry > > > On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > > On 1 October 2015 at 19:27, Martin John Packer > > wrote: > > > >> So it's filling the gap again! :) > >> > > > > Or minding it, yes. > > > > > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:16 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> > >>> On 1 October 2015 at 19:13, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 1 October 2015 at 19:11, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Huw, > >>>>> > >>>>> Might this be an artifact of the digital encoding of the video? > >>>>> > >>>>> Could you head to a tube station and try it with a real train? :) > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> I suspect you'd need strobe lighting. > >>>> > >>>> Huw > >>>> > >>> > >>> E.g. > >>> > >>> https://vimeo.com/116582567 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Martin > >>>>> > >>>>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Huw Lloyd > >> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation > of a > >>>>> tube > >>>>>> train: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little interesting > >> to > >>>>>> discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception of > >> the > >>>>>> direction of the train. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining > >> that > >>>>> I > >>>>>> can see an object within the train moving in the direction I wish, > so > >>>>> that > >>>>>> perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the perception > of > >>>>> the > >>>>>> train can be shuttled back and forth. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London > >> would > >>>>>> influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at > which > >>>>> the > >>>>>> train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming into > a > >>>>>> platform would usually, I think, be going slower. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Best, > >>>>>> Huw > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Oct 1 13:47:35 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 05:47:35 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of handwriting -- mobile app. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huw: I'm in Australia right now, talking at the annual national meeting of the Australian Systemic-Functional Linguistics Association (my other life is as a Hallidayan linguist). The "hook up" between orthography and phonology is, in my humble theoretical opinion, the hottest issue in literacy teaching bar none, for three reasons. a) Nether the "whole language" (teach only meaningful units) or the "phonics" approach has delivered the systemic mastery of "spounding" (spelling plus sounding) that lies behind mastery of orthography. (c.f. the "Reading Wars" in the USA). b) The theory of "realization" (that is, the idea that the relationship between meaning, wording, and sounding is stratal but not causal and not dualistic) is at one and the same time the most difficult concept to master in the whole of linguistics and the first thing you must "know" if you are going to read, and the best way I've found to teach it to children is not through reading but through writing and the best way I've found to teach it through writing is through deautomatizing it and making it once again a kind of drawing. c) Keyboards interfere with this process. But for kids today, writing without a computer is oxymoronic; it's writing on the air, or in the sand (which is how handwriting was taught in China for thousands of years, because paper was too expensive to waste on children). David Kellogg On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 5:24 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Huw, > I'll give my two cents on this (primarily in hopes of prodding someone else > to chime in). > 1. Don't know, but my sense is that most of what is developed for children > is not informed by anything but the simplest psychological theory. Most of > the time the litmus test is whether or not it will keep the kid engaged for > a few minutes so that the parent can run off and do XYZ. > 2. I would suggest making it so that people pay by providing their data to > be mined (you'll want to say it differently than that but you get the idea > - also, note that there is a question of how you can be sure that you are > tracking the right user - what if someone logs on as a user and then leaves > the app open and someone else plays with it? okay, that's a little bit of > cart before horse...). This might act as an incentive for do-gooder parents > who are interested in contributing to research. > 3. Can't help on this one. > 4. I can't imagine why not. > > Also, I wouldn't worry about the hedging that you do at the beginning, I > suspect it is unnecessary (even for this cynical bunch!). > > As a parent, I'm not sure that I would be terribly interested in a > handwriting app. And I fear that I would probably subject it to the litmus > test I mentioned above (will it keep my kids occupied for a spell?). > > Anyway, my two cents. > -greg > > > On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 6:13 AM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > Dear All > > > > I am writing a smart-phone / tablet application for practising > handwriting > > and related activities and have a few questions (below) which some of you > > may have some feeling for. > > > > The initial audience I had in mind for the application are children of > > adults owning ipads and the like. There are, I am aware, numerous issues > > and scope for criticism with respect to promoting this kind of > application > > and pastime. However, given that there is a young user base for > tablets, I > > reason that we might as well embrace the technology and try to put > forward > > some good products, rather than the 'pop the balloon' games that, I > > imagine, populate many of these mobile devices. I am currently at the > > stage of implementing the main psychological component of the > application, > > which will initially be reminiscent of experiments undertaken by > Gal'perin. > > > > What I am hoping for is to gather a large set of longitudinal > > transcriptions of writing fluency across a potentially rather wide user > > base (i.e anyone with a smart phone/tablet), in order to undertake a > robust > > microgenetic study of the development in handwriting and the analytical > > skills that accompany it. It is my also my thought that this study will > > serve as a good exemplary model for applying the genetic analysis that I > > have been sketching out. > > > > Given the challenges of implementing the application, I have not spent > much > > time trying to find out what presently exists within the apps domain or, > > indeed, whether the psychological research has begun to embrace such > > devices for collating data. > > > > Here are my questions: > > > > 1. What's already out there in the mobile apps world? Are they informed > > by any psychological theory? > > > > 2. Under what circumstances would you use or experiment with such an > > application? E.g. Does it need to be freely available or would a small > > cost be indicative of quality? > > > > 3. Are there any high profile studies of the psychology of handwriting > > that you would want, or expect, the application design to be informed by? > > Presently I am working along the lines delineated by Gal'perin, though I > > hope to return soon to see what Luria has written about this too. > > > > 4. Is this the sort of experiment that merits publication in a > particular > > journal? It is my hope that I will get several papers published from > this > > effort as a whole. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Oct 1 14:17:21 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 14:17:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visualillusions. In-Reply-To: <6FDA5448-952A-4FEC-B452-AFD43F15B107@gmail.com> References: <2A6C4216-DC8A-4B78-A593-22CEC4770E1E@uniandes.edu.co> <4824F9FE-003B-4844-B9A6-2C188194A0B0@uniandes.edu.co> <6FDA5448-952A-4FEC-B452-AFD43F15B107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <560da2f4.e7e4440a.d2610.6d22@mx.google.com> Henry, The saccadic eye movements indicating the centrality of minding the gap is literally a fact. The question which this fact opens is the factor of gaps within other event structures. For example when exploring structures being generated we imagine "bridges" linking and overcoming the gaps between. However minding the gap indicates the profound necessity of the gap ITSELF. If we fail to "mind" (or bridge) the gap is the gap still a constitutive aspect IN ITSELF? For example, with gesture, there is the rhythmic movement in relation to the other. However, besides the two participants moving in rhythm is the reality of the gap (or intervals) that "open" within the rhythmic gestures also another profoundly relevant factor in the ensuing rhythmic gestures? I am "reading" the concept "gap" as a key metaphor. Eric Fromm described western notions of God as residing in a person's beliefs (thoughts) of God. In contrast Buddhism and Taoism focus not on beliefs but on right "action". They also have sophisticated elaborations of the "gap". I have a hunch that there is something "beyond" our belief and beyond "bridging" that is continually opening gaps and intervals as new vistas within our acts. This something beyond our structurings has been called the "inner feeling" of the event (not to be confused with the "inner feeling" of a single person's mind. A concrete example is the structure of the concept "reading fluency". Three characteristics have been "identified in this concept (word accuracy - rate of words in a measured time - prosody or tone). I am suggesting this third characteristic -prosody/tone - is the "inner feeling" within the event of reading fluency. This has to do with rhythm and gaps. Are saccadic eye movements and the rhythm of prosody sharing a family resemblance (not an identity) that comes back to Dewey's notion of having an experience? Larry -----Original Message----- From: "HENRY SHONERD" Sent: ?2015-?10-?01 12:40 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visualillusions. Something that has intrigued me, and may be relevant to the thread, has been how I can ?freeze? the movement of my overhead fans by voluntarily jerking my eyes back and forth as I gaze at the revolving fan blades. When I keep my eyes fixed, the blades blur. When I jerk my eyes back and forth, the blades seem to stop. Or so I perceive it. In the Pelaprat & Cole article (2011) on mending the gap, Etienne and Mike discuss saccadic eye movements as ?central to the perception of the world?. Henry > On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > On 1 October 2015 at 19:27, Martin John Packer > wrote: > >> So it's filling the gap again! :) >> > > Or minding it, yes. > > >> >> Martin >> >> On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:16 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >>> On 1 October 2015 at 19:13, Huw Lloyd wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 1 October 2015 at 19:11, Martin John Packer >> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Huw, >>>>> >>>>> Might this be an artifact of the digital encoding of the video? >>>>> >>>>> Could you head to a tube station and try it with a real train? :) >>>>> >>>> >>>> I suspect you'd need strobe lighting. >>>> >>>> Huw >>>> >>> >>> E.g. >>> >>> https://vimeo.com/116582567 >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation of a >>>>> tube >>>>>> train: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >> https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php >>>>>> >>>>>> Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little interesting >> to >>>>>> discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception of >> the >>>>>> direction of the train. >>>>>> >>>>>> Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining >> that >>>>> I >>>>>> can see an object within the train moving in the direction I wish, so >>>>> that >>>>>> perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the perception of >>>>> the >>>>>> train can be shuttled back and forth. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London >> would >>>>>> influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at which >>>>> the >>>>>> train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming into a >>>>>> platform would usually, I think, be going slower. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> >> >> From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Oct 1 14:18:17 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 22:18:17 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of handwriting -- mobile app. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That all sounds rather encouraging, David. And I am agreement with the writing to read principle. Actually, I confess that half of my announcement is to help me get over the hump of completing the first development cycle, so thanks twice. I hope to have something to show within a month. As you're no doubt aware, the smart phones and tablets are operated by finger touch or with styluses. My application is presently coined 'Penmanship' because I am considering that it could be used to experiment with calligraphy, or foreign lettering too. It is quite interesting talking to people about it. A software developer I was talking to this summer thought it might also be useful for stroke victims as it turns out that his writing had changed since such an event. Also it is interesting reading about the history of handwriting (I am more ignorant of Orthography generally), in which it appears there was far less variation in writing style when handwriting was _the_ means of communicating via the written word. Incidentally, there are some other products I would like to produce too. Both software based and maybe some specific wooden learning products too. The ideas keep flooding in, but at some point soon I'll need more income... I'd love to find a way to fit learning Russian in too, though I'm also starting to think about how stigmatised Russia is becoming in the media. Best, Huw On 1 October 2015 at 21:47, David Kellogg wrote: > Huw: > > I'm in Australia right now, talking at the annual national meeting of the > Australian Systemic-Functional Linguistics Association (my other life is as > a Hallidayan linguist). The "hook up" between orthography and phonology is, > in my humble theoretical opinion, the hottest issue in literacy teaching > bar none, for three reasons. > > a) Nether the "whole language" (teach only meaningful units) or the > "phonics" approach has delivered the systemic mastery of "spounding" > (spelling plus sounding) that lies behind mastery of orthography. (c.f. the > "Reading Wars" in the USA). > > b) The theory of "realization" (that is, the idea that the relationship > between meaning, wording, and sounding is stratal but not causal and not > dualistic) is at one and the same time the most difficult concept to master > in the whole of linguistics and the first thing you must "know" if you are > going to read, and the best way I've found to teach it to children is not > through reading but through writing and the best way I've found to teach it > through writing is through deautomatizing it and making it once again a > kind of drawing. > > c) Keyboards interfere with this process. But for kids today, writing > without a computer is oxymoronic; it's writing on the air, or in the sand > (which is how handwriting was taught in China for thousands of years, > because paper was too expensive to waste on children). > > David Kellogg > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 5:24 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Huw, > > I'll give my two cents on this (primarily in hopes of prodding someone > else > > to chime in). > > 1. Don't know, but my sense is that most of what is developed for > children > > is not informed by anything but the simplest psychological theory. Most > of > > the time the litmus test is whether or not it will keep the kid engaged > for > > a few minutes so that the parent can run off and do XYZ. > > 2. I would suggest making it so that people pay by providing their data > to > > be mined (you'll want to say it differently than that but you get the > idea > > - also, note that there is a question of how you can be sure that you are > > tracking the right user - what if someone logs on as a user and then > leaves > > the app open and someone else plays with it? okay, that's a little bit of > > cart before horse...). This might act as an incentive for do-gooder > parents > > who are interested in contributing to research. > > 3. Can't help on this one. > > 4. I can't imagine why not. > > > > Also, I wouldn't worry about the hedging that you do at the beginning, I > > suspect it is unnecessary (even for this cynical bunch!). > > > > As a parent, I'm not sure that I would be terribly interested in a > > handwriting app. And I fear that I would probably subject it to the > litmus > > test I mentioned above (will it keep my kids occupied for a spell?). > > > > Anyway, my two cents. > > -greg > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 6:13 AM, Huw Lloyd > > wrote: > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > I am writing a smart-phone / tablet application for practising > > handwriting > > > and related activities and have a few questions (below) which some of > you > > > may have some feeling for. > > > > > > The initial audience I had in mind for the application are children of > > > adults owning ipads and the like. There are, I am aware, numerous > issues > > > and scope for criticism with respect to promoting this kind of > > application > > > and pastime. However, given that there is a young user base for > > tablets, I > > > reason that we might as well embrace the technology and try to put > > forward > > > some good products, rather than the 'pop the balloon' games that, I > > > imagine, populate many of these mobile devices. I am currently at the > > > stage of implementing the main psychological component of the > > application, > > > which will initially be reminiscent of experiments undertaken by > > Gal'perin. > > > > > > What I am hoping for is to gather a large set of longitudinal > > > transcriptions of writing fluency across a potentially rather wide user > > > base (i.e anyone with a smart phone/tablet), in order to undertake a > > robust > > > microgenetic study of the development in handwriting and the analytical > > > skills that accompany it. It is my also my thought that this study > will > > > serve as a good exemplary model for applying the genetic analysis that > I > > > have been sketching out. > > > > > > Given the challenges of implementing the application, I have not spent > > much > > > time trying to find out what presently exists within the apps domain > or, > > > indeed, whether the psychological research has begun to embrace such > > > devices for collating data. > > > > > > Here are my questions: > > > > > > 1. What's already out there in the mobile apps world? Are they > informed > > > by any psychological theory? > > > > > > 2. Under what circumstances would you use or experiment with such an > > > application? E.g. Does it need to be freely available or would a small > > > cost be indicative of quality? > > > > > > 3. Are there any high profile studies of the psychology of handwriting > > > that you would want, or expect, the application design to be informed > by? > > > Presently I am working along the lines delineated by Gal'perin, though > I > > > hope to return soon to see what Luria has written about this too. > > > > > > 4. Is this the sort of experiment that merits publication in a > > particular > > > journal? It is my hope that I will get several papers published from > > this > > > effort as a whole. > > > > > > Best, > > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Oct 1 14:32:19 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 06:32:19 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of handwriting -- mobile app. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huw-- In the summer of 2011 I found myself touring large areas of southern Gansu province in China, piloted by my rich brother in law in a big black Cadillac SUV with gold trimmings. One of the non-gold trimmings it had was a GPS device that would--I am not making this up--tell you in good Chinese where the nearest Chongqing Hot Pot restaurant was when you were tooling around virtually roadless grasslands inhabited by Tibetan herdsmen and only the very occasional Han settlement. The way my brother in law interfaced with this extraordinary contraption was by inputting Chinese characters written with his index fingernail on a touch screen. When I think about it, the optical illusion you mention (which must be related to the reason why wheels of cars seem to be going backwards in movies) seems tame in comparison. David Kellogg On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 6:18 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > That all sounds rather encouraging, David. And I am agreement with the > writing to read principle. Actually, I confess that half of my > announcement is to help me get over the hump of completing the first > development cycle, so thanks twice. I hope to have something to show > within a month. > > As you're no doubt aware, the smart phones and tablets are operated by > finger touch or with styluses. My application is presently coined > 'Penmanship' because I am considering that it could be used to experiment > with calligraphy, or foreign lettering too. It is quite interesting > talking to people about it. A software developer I was talking to this > summer thought it might also be useful for stroke victims as it turns out > that his writing had changed since such an event. Also it is interesting > reading about the history of handwriting (I am more ignorant of Orthography > generally), in which it appears there was far less variation in writing > style when handwriting was _the_ means of communicating via the written > word. > > Incidentally, there are some other products I would like to produce too. > Both software based and maybe some specific wooden learning products too. > The ideas keep flooding in, but at some point soon I'll need more > income... I'd love to find a way to fit learning Russian in too, though > I'm also starting to think about how stigmatised Russia is becoming in the > media. > > Best, > Huw > > > > On 1 October 2015 at 21:47, David Kellogg wrote: > > > Huw: > > > > I'm in Australia right now, talking at the annual national meeting of the > > Australian Systemic-Functional Linguistics Association (my other life is > as > > a Hallidayan linguist). The "hook up" between orthography and phonology > is, > > in my humble theoretical opinion, the hottest issue in literacy teaching > > bar none, for three reasons. > > > > a) Nether the "whole language" (teach only meaningful units) or the > > "phonics" approach has delivered the systemic mastery of "spounding" > > (spelling plus sounding) that lies behind mastery of orthography. (c.f. > the > > "Reading Wars" in the USA). > > > > b) The theory of "realization" (that is, the idea that the relationship > > between meaning, wording, and sounding is stratal but not causal and not > > dualistic) is at one and the same time the most difficult concept to > master > > in the whole of linguistics and the first thing you must "know" if you > are > > going to read, and the best way I've found to teach it to children is not > > through reading but through writing and the best way I've found to teach > it > > through writing is through deautomatizing it and making it once again a > > kind of drawing. > > > > c) Keyboards interfere with this process. But for kids today, writing > > without a computer is oxymoronic; it's writing on the air, or in the sand > > (which is how handwriting was taught in China for thousands of years, > > because paper was too expensive to waste on children). > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 5:24 AM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Huw, > > > I'll give my two cents on this (primarily in hopes of prodding someone > > else > > > to chime in). > > > 1. Don't know, but my sense is that most of what is developed for > > children > > > is not informed by anything but the simplest psychological theory. Most > > of > > > the time the litmus test is whether or not it will keep the kid engaged > > for > > > a few minutes so that the parent can run off and do XYZ. > > > 2. I would suggest making it so that people pay by providing their data > > to > > > be mined (you'll want to say it differently than that but you get the > > idea > > > - also, note that there is a question of how you can be sure that you > are > > > tracking the right user - what if someone logs on as a user and then > > leaves > > > the app open and someone else plays with it? okay, that's a little bit > of > > > cart before horse...). This might act as an incentive for do-gooder > > parents > > > who are interested in contributing to research. > > > 3. Can't help on this one. > > > 4. I can't imagine why not. > > > > > > Also, I wouldn't worry about the hedging that you do at the beginning, > I > > > suspect it is unnecessary (even for this cynical bunch!). > > > > > > As a parent, I'm not sure that I would be terribly interested in a > > > handwriting app. And I fear that I would probably subject it to the > > litmus > > > test I mentioned above (will it keep my kids occupied for a spell?). > > > > > > Anyway, my two cents. > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 6:13 AM, Huw Lloyd > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > I am writing a smart-phone / tablet application for practising > > > handwriting > > > > and related activities and have a few questions (below) which some of > > you > > > > may have some feeling for. > > > > > > > > The initial audience I had in mind for the application are children > of > > > > adults owning ipads and the like. There are, I am aware, numerous > > issues > > > > and scope for criticism with respect to promoting this kind of > > > application > > > > and pastime. However, given that there is a young user base for > > > tablets, I > > > > reason that we might as well embrace the technology and try to put > > > forward > > > > some good products, rather than the 'pop the balloon' games that, I > > > > imagine, populate many of these mobile devices. I am currently at > the > > > > stage of implementing the main psychological component of the > > > application, > > > > which will initially be reminiscent of experiments undertaken by > > > Gal'perin. > > > > > > > > What I am hoping for is to gather a large set of longitudinal > > > > transcriptions of writing fluency across a potentially rather wide > user > > > > base (i.e anyone with a smart phone/tablet), in order to undertake a > > > robust > > > > microgenetic study of the development in handwriting and the > analytical > > > > skills that accompany it. It is my also my thought that this study > > will > > > > serve as a good exemplary model for applying the genetic analysis > that > > I > > > > have been sketching out. > > > > > > > > Given the challenges of implementing the application, I have not > spent > > > much > > > > time trying to find out what presently exists within the apps domain > > or, > > > > indeed, whether the psychological research has begun to embrace such > > > > devices for collating data. > > > > > > > > Here are my questions: > > > > > > > > 1. What's already out there in the mobile apps world? Are they > > informed > > > > by any psychological theory? > > > > > > > > 2. Under what circumstances would you use or experiment with such an > > > > application? E.g. Does it need to be freely available or would a > small > > > > cost be indicative of quality? > > > > > > > > 3. Are there any high profile studies of the psychology of > handwriting > > > > that you would want, or expect, the application design to be informed > > by? > > > > Presently I am working along the lines delineated by Gal'perin, > though > > I > > > > hope to return soon to see what Luria has written about this too. > > > > > > > > 4. Is this the sort of experiment that merits publication in a > > > particular > > > > journal? It is my hope that I will get several papers published from > > > this > > > > effort as a whole. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Oct 1 18:05:05 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 19:05:05 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visualillusions. In-Reply-To: <560da2f4.e7e4440a.d2610.6d22@mx.google.com> References: <2A6C4216-DC8A-4B78-A593-22CEC4770E1E@uniandes.edu.co> <4824F9FE-003B-4844-B9A6-2C188194A0B0@uniandes.edu.co> <6FDA5448-952A-4FEC-B452-AFD43F15B107@gmail.com> <560da2f4.e7e4440a.d2610.6d22@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I like Henry's suggested modification of the title of Mike's paper: "Mending the gap" Huw, I assume you could do it without a strobe, just with a little video editing where you cut out most of the frames and just keep a frame every tenth of a second or so. Then our brains can do the mending. As for direction, I think it depends on whether the platforms are centrally located (i.e. between the two tracks) or peripherally located (i.e., on the "outside" of the tracks). -greg On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 3:17 PM, Lplarry wrote: > Henry, > The saccadic eye movements indicating the centrality of minding the gap is > literally a fact. > The question which this fact opens is the factor of gaps within other > event structures. > For example when exploring structures being generated we imagine > "bridges" linking and overcoming the gaps between. > However minding the gap indicates the profound necessity of the gap ITSELF. > If we fail to "mind" (or bridge) the gap is the gap still a constitutive > aspect IN ITSELF? > For example, with gesture, there is the rhythmic movement in relation to > the other. However, besides the two participants moving in rhythm is the > reality of the gap (or intervals) that "open" within the rhythmic gestures > also another profoundly relevant factor in the ensuing rhythmic gestures? > I am "reading" the concept "gap" as a key metaphor. > Eric Fromm described western notions of God as residing in a person's > beliefs (thoughts) of God. > In contrast Buddhism and Taoism focus not on beliefs but on right > "action". They also have sophisticated elaborations of the "gap". > I have a hunch that there is something "beyond" our belief and beyond > "bridging" that is continually opening gaps and intervals as new vistas > within our acts. > This something beyond our structurings has been called the "inner > feeling" of the event (not to be confused with the "inner feeling" of a > single person's mind. > > A concrete example is the structure of the concept "reading fluency". > Three characteristics have been "identified in this concept (word accuracy > - rate of words in a measured time - prosody or tone). > I am suggesting this third characteristic -prosody/tone - is the "inner > feeling" within the event of reading fluency. > This has to do with rhythm and gaps. > Are saccadic eye movements and the rhythm of prosody sharing a family > resemblance (not an identity) that comes back to Dewey's notion of having > an experience? > Larry > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "HENRY SHONERD" > Sent: ?2015-?10-?01 12:40 PM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of > visualillusions. > > Something that has intrigued me, and may be relevant to the thread, has > been how I can ?freeze? the movement of my overhead fans by voluntarily > jerking my eyes back and forth as I gaze at the revolving fan blades. When > I keep my eyes fixed, the blades blur. When I jerk my eyes back and forth, > the blades seem to stop. Or so I perceive it. In the Pelaprat & Cole > article (2011) on mending the gap, Etienne and Mike discuss saccadic eye > movements as ?central to the perception of the world?. > Henry > > > On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > > On 1 October 2015 at 19:27, Martin John Packer > > wrote: > > > >> So it's filling the gap again! :) > >> > > > > Or minding it, yes. > > > > > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:16 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> > >>> On 1 October 2015 at 19:13, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 1 October 2015 at 19:11, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Huw, > >>>>> > >>>>> Might this be an artifact of the digital encoding of the video? > >>>>> > >>>>> Could you head to a tube station and try it with a real train? :) > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> I suspect you'd need strobe lighting. > >>>> > >>>> Huw > >>>> > >>> > >>> E.g. > >>> > >>> https://vimeo.com/116582567 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Martin > >>>>> > >>>>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Huw Lloyd > >> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation > of a > >>>>> tube > >>>>>> train: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little interesting > >> to > >>>>>> discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception of > >> the > >>>>>> direction of the train. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining > >> that > >>>>> I > >>>>>> can see an object within the train moving in the direction I wish, > so > >>>>> that > >>>>>> perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the perception > of > >>>>> the > >>>>>> train can be shuttled back and forth. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London > >> would > >>>>>> influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at > which > >>>>> the > >>>>>> train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming into > a > >>>>>> platform would usually, I think, be going slower. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Best, > >>>>>> Huw > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Oct 2 06:19:27 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 14:19:27 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visualillusions. In-Reply-To: References: <2A6C4216-DC8A-4B78-A593-22CEC4770E1E@uniandes.edu.co> <4824F9FE-003B-4844-B9A6-2C188194A0B0@uniandes.edu.co> <6FDA5448-952A-4FEC-B452-AFD43F15B107@gmail.com> <560da2f4.e7e4440a.d2610.6d22@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Greg, Yes, I think that would work. Nevertheless, the clip demonstrates a means of applying a schema to construct an experiment employing variables of culture, imagination and perception. With respect to platforms for the tube in London, it looks like my memory is correct: http://anonw.com/2013/05/05/do-we-need-big-arrows-in-underground-stations/ Best, Huw On 2 October 2015 at 02:05, Greg Thompson wrote: > I like Henry's suggested modification of the title of Mike's paper: > "Mending the gap" > Huw, I assume you could do it without a strobe, just with a little video > editing where you cut out most of the frames and just keep a frame every > tenth of a second or so. Then our brains can do the mending. > As for direction, I think it depends on whether the platforms are centrally > located (i.e. between the two tracks) or peripherally located (i.e., on the > "outside" of the tracks). > > -greg > > On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 3:17 PM, Lplarry wrote: > > > Henry, > > The saccadic eye movements indicating the centrality of minding the gap > is > > literally a fact. > > The question which this fact opens is the factor of gaps within other > > event structures. > > For example when exploring structures being generated we imagine > > "bridges" linking and overcoming the gaps between. > > However minding the gap indicates the profound necessity of the gap > ITSELF. > > If we fail to "mind" (or bridge) the gap is the gap still a constitutive > > aspect IN ITSELF? > > For example, with gesture, there is the rhythmic movement in relation to > > the other. However, besides the two participants moving in rhythm is the > > reality of the gap (or intervals) that "open" within the rhythmic > gestures > > also another profoundly relevant factor in the ensuing rhythmic gestures? > > I am "reading" the concept "gap" as a key metaphor. > > Eric Fromm described western notions of God as residing in a person's > > beliefs (thoughts) of God. > > In contrast Buddhism and Taoism focus not on beliefs but on right > > "action". They also have sophisticated elaborations of the "gap". > > I have a hunch that there is something "beyond" our belief and beyond > > "bridging" that is continually opening gaps and intervals as new vistas > > within our acts. > > This something beyond our structurings has been called the "inner > > feeling" of the event (not to be confused with the "inner feeling" of a > > single person's mind. > > > > A concrete example is the structure of the concept "reading fluency". > > Three characteristics have been "identified in this concept (word > accuracy > > - rate of words in a measured time - prosody or tone). > > I am suggesting this third characteristic -prosody/tone - is the "inner > > feeling" within the event of reading fluency. > > This has to do with rhythm and gaps. > > Are saccadic eye movements and the rhythm of prosody sharing a family > > resemblance (not an identity) that comes back to Dewey's notion of having > > an experience? > > Larry > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "HENRY SHONERD" > > Sent: ?2015-?10-?01 12:40 PM > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of > > visualillusions. > > > > Something that has intrigued me, and may be relevant to the thread, has > > been how I can ?freeze? the movement of my overhead fans by voluntarily > > jerking my eyes back and forth as I gaze at the revolving fan blades. > When > > I keep my eyes fixed, the blades blur. When I jerk my eyes back and > forth, > > the blades seem to stop. Or so I perceive it. In the Pelaprat & Cole > > article (2011) on mending the gap, Etienne and Mike discuss saccadic eye > > movements as ?central to the perception of the world?. > > Henry > > > > > On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > > > > On 1 October 2015 at 19:27, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> So it's filling the gap again! :) > > >> > > > > > > Or minding it, yes. > > > > > > > > >> > > >> Martin > > >> > > >> On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:16 PM, Huw Lloyd > > wrote: > > >> > > >>> On 1 October 2015 at 19:13, Huw Lloyd > > wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On 1 October 2015 at 19:11, Martin John Packer < > > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > > >>> > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Huw, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Might this be an artifact of the digital encoding of the video? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Could you head to a tube station and try it with a real train? :) > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> I suspect you'd need strobe lighting. > > >>>> > > >>>> Huw > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> E.g. > > >>> > > >>> https://vimeo.com/116582567 > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Martin > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Huw Lloyd > > >> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation > > of a > > >>>>> tube > > >>>>>> train: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >> > > > https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little > interesting > > >> to > > >>>>>> discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception > of > > >> the > > >>>>>> direction of the train. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining > > >> that > > >>>>> I > > >>>>>> can see an object within the train moving in the direction I wish, > > so > > >>>>> that > > >>>>>> perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the perception > > of > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>> train can be shuttled back and forth. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London > > >> would > > >>>>>> influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at > > which > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>> train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming > into > > a > > >>>>>> platform would usually, I think, be going slower. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Best, > > >>>>>> Huw > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From bruce@dolphy.eclipse.co.uk Fri Oct 2 07:36:35 2015 From: bruce@dolphy.eclipse.co.uk (Bruce Robinson) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 15:36:35 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visualillusions. In-Reply-To: References: <2A6C4216-DC8A-4B78-A593-22CEC4770E1E@uniandes.edu.co> <4824F9FE-003B-4844-B9A6-2C188194A0B0@uniandes.edu.co> <6FDA5448-952A-4FEC-B452-AFD43F15B107@gmail.com> <560da2f4.e7e4440a.d2610.6d22@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <560E9673.4080306@dolphy.eclipse.co.uk> From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Oct 4 16:42:03 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 17:42:03 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visualillusions. In-Reply-To: <560da2f4.e7e4440a.d2610.6d22@mx.google.com> References: <2A6C4216-DC8A-4B78-A593-22CEC4770E1E@uniandes.edu.co> <4824F9FE-003B-4844-B9A6-2C188194A0B0@uniandes.edu.co> <6FDA5448-952A-4FEC-B452-AFD43F15B107@gmail.com> <560da2f4.e7e4440a.d2610.6d22@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Larry, As always, your post informs and inspires, though I doubt my own will be inspirational. I don?t mean it to be, even when how I say something seems to aspire to inspiration. Saccadic eye movements have especially been on my radar since I read that they are important to understanding both the cognitive grammar of Langacker and the gap minding of the CHAT. (Though Langacker devotes much less ink to it than the CHAT people.) It?s all about imagination. And CAN be about creativity, when imagination is disciplined and ethical. Or so I see it. Visual illusions are the key to magic. Misdirection. The idea that the world in our mind is simply a faithful, ?factual" replica of the world ?out there? is hard to shake. I would say that magic ranks up there with gesture as a generative metaphor for what it is to be and act as a human. I like the juxtaposition of structure and fluency, think it captures the connection between grammar and language use, grammar being usage based. You elaborate on reading fluency, but the idea is general, as you say: > "I have a hunch that there is something "beyond" our belief and beyond "bridging" that is continually opening gaps and intervals as new vistas within our acts. > This something beyond our structurings has been called the "inner feeling" of the event (not to be confused with the "inner feeling" of a single person's mind.? The idea of the ?'inner feeling? of the event? is intriguing. Would that relate in any way to inner speech, the way Vygotsky construes it? As in, how do I know what I am going to write until I?ve written it? I also like the juxtaposition of fluency and rhythm. Temporality. Somehow, the temporal domain seems to me to be the most basic of basic domains, even more basic than the spatial domain. Though I can?t prove it. It certainly feels that way to me. Does this go beyond the inner feeling in my individual mind? Henry > On Oct 1, 2015, at 3:17 PM, Lplarry wrote: > > Henry, > The saccadic eye movements indicating the centrality of minding the gap is literally a fact. > The question which this fact opens is the factor of gaps within other event structures. > For example when exploring structures being generated we imagine "bridges" linking and overcoming the gaps between. > However minding the gap indicates the profound necessity of the gap ITSELF. > If we fail to "mind" (or bridge) the gap is the gap still a constitutive aspect IN ITSELF? > For example, with gesture, there is the rhythmic movement in relation to the other. However, besides the two participants moving in rhythm is the reality of the gap (or intervals) that "open" within the rhythmic gestures also another profoundly relevant factor in the ensuing rhythmic gestures? > I am "reading" the concept "gap" as a key metaphor. > Eric Fromm described western notions of God as residing in a person's beliefs (thoughts) of God. > In contrast Buddhism and Taoism focus not on beliefs but on right "action". They also have sophisticated elaborations of the "gap". > I have a hunch that there is something "beyond" our belief and beyond "bridging" that is continually opening gaps and intervals as new vistas within our acts. > This something beyond our structurings has been called the "inner feeling" of the event (not to be confused with the "inner feeling" of a single person's mind. > > A concrete example is the structure of the concept "reading fluency". Three characteristics have been "identified in this concept (word accuracy - rate of words in a measured time - prosody or tone). > I am suggesting this third characteristic -prosody/tone - is the "inner feeling" within the event of reading fluency. > This has to do with rhythm and gaps. > Are saccadic eye movements and the rhythm of prosody sharing a family resemblance (not an identity) that comes back to Dewey's notion of having an experience? > Larry > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "HENRY SHONERD" > Sent: ?2015-?10-?01 12:40 PM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visualillusions. > > Something that has intrigued me, and may be relevant to the thread, has been how I can ?freeze? the movement of my overhead fans by voluntarily jerking my eyes back and forth as I gaze at the revolving fan blades. When I keep my eyes fixed, the blades blur. When I jerk my eyes back and forth, the blades seem to stop. Or so I perceive it. In the Pelaprat & Cole article (2011) on mending the gap, Etienne and Mike discuss saccadic eye movements as ?central to the perception of the world?. > Henry > >> On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >> On 1 October 2015 at 19:27, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >> >>> So it's filling the gap again! :) >>> >> >> Or minding it, yes. >> >> >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:16 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: >>> >>>> On 1 October 2015 at 19:13, Huw Lloyd wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 1 October 2015 at 19:11, Martin John Packer >>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Huw, >>>>>> >>>>>> Might this be an artifact of the digital encoding of the video? >>>>>> >>>>>> Could you head to a tube station and try it with a real train? :) >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I suspect you'd need strobe lighting. >>>>> >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>> >>>> E.g. >>>> >>>> https://vimeo.com/116582567 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Huw Lloyd >>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation of a >>>>>> tube >>>>>>> train: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little interesting >>> to >>>>>>> discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception of >>> the >>>>>>> direction of the train. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining >>> that >>>>>> I >>>>>>> can see an object within the train moving in the direction I wish, so >>>>>> that >>>>>>> perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the perception of >>>>>> the >>>>>>> train can be shuttled back and forth. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London >>> would >>>>>>> influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at which >>>>>> the >>>>>>> train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming into a >>>>>>> platform would usually, I think, be going slower. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Huw >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > > From gordonucsc@gmail.com Mon Oct 5 05:57:54 2015 From: gordonucsc@gmail.com (Gordon Wells) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 08:57:54 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Social Constructivist Articles on Education Message-ID: New downloadable *on-line book* on education from a social-constructivist perspective, edited by Thalia Dragonas, Kenneth J. Gergen, Sheila McNamee, Eleftheria Tseliou, consisting of chapters by scholars and activists from many different professional perspectives and many different countries. http://www.taosinstitute.net/education-as-social-construction Gordon Wells From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Oct 5 09:01:51 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 09:01:51 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Social Constructivist Articles on Education In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Gordon. The title got me thinking about in-struction vs con-struction. mike On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 5:57 AM, Gordon Wells wrote: > New downloadable *on-line book* on education from a social-constructivist > perspective, edited by Thalia Dragonas, Kenneth J. Gergen, Sheila McNamee, > Eleftheria Tseliou, consisting of chapters by scholars and activists from > many different professional perspectives and many different countries. > > > > http://www.taosinstitute.net/education-as-social-construction > Gordon Wells > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From blantonwe@gmail.com Mon Oct 5 11:04:13 2015 From: blantonwe@gmail.com (William Blanton) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 11:04:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Social Constructivist Articles on Education In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Gordon I was wondering where you were. I am now in Scottsdale, AZ. Bill Blanton On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 9:01 AM, mike cole wrote: > Thanks Gordon. > > The title got me thinking about in-struction vs con-struction. > mike > > On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 5:57 AM, Gordon Wells wrote: > > > New downloadable *on-line book* on education from a social-constructivist > > perspective, edited by Thalia Dragonas, Kenneth J. Gergen, Sheila > McNamee, > > Eleftheria Tseliou, consisting of chapters by scholars and activists from > > many different professional perspectives and many different countries. > > > > > > > > http://www.taosinstitute.net/education-as-social-construction > > Gordon Wells > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Oct 5 14:47:04 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 14:47:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visualillusions. In-Reply-To: References: <2A6C4216-DC8A-4B78-A593-22CEC4770E1E@uniandes.edu.co> <4824F9FE-003B-4844-B9A6-2C188194A0B0@uniandes.edu.co> <6FDA5448-952A-4FEC-B452-AFD43F15B107@gmail.com> <560da2f4.e7e4440a.d2610.6d22@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 4:42 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Larry, > As always, your post informs and inspires, though I doubt my own will be > inspirational. I don?t mean it to be, even when how I say something seems > to aspire to inspiration. > > Saccadic eye movements have especially been on my radar since I read that > they are important to understanding both the cognitive grammar of Langacker > and the gap minding of the CHAT. (Though Langacker devotes much less ink to > it than the CHAT people.) It?s all about imagination. And CAN be about > creativity, when imagination is disciplined and ethical. Or so I see it. > > Visual illusions are the key to magic. Misdirection. The idea that the > world in our mind is simply a faithful, ?factual" replica of the world ?out > there? is hard to shake. I would say that magic ranks up there with gesture > as a generative metaphor for what it is to be and act as a human. > > I like the juxtaposition of structure and fluency, think it captures the > connection between grammar and language use, grammar being usage based. You > elaborate on reading fluency, but the idea is general, as you say: > > "I have a hunch that there is something "beyond" our belief and beyond > "bridging" that is continually opening gaps and intervals as new vistas > within our acts. > > This something beyond our structurings has been called the "inner > feeling" of the event (not to be confused with the "inner feeling" of a > single person's mind.? > > The idea of the ?'inner feeling? of the event? is intriguing. Would that > relate in any way to inner speech, the way Vygotsky construes it? As in, > how do I know what I am going to write until I?ve written it? > > I also like the juxtaposition of fluency and rhythm. Temporality. Somehow, > the temporal domain seems to me to be the most basic of basic domains, even > more basic than the spatial domain. Though I can?t prove it. It certainly > feels that way to me. Does this go beyond the inner feeling in my > individual mind? > > Henry > > > > On Oct 1, 2015, at 3:17 PM, Lplarry wrote: > > > > Henry, > > The saccadic eye movements indicating the centrality of minding the gap > is literally a fact. > > The question which this fact opens is the factor of gaps within other > event structures. > > For example when exploring structures being generated we imagine > "bridges" linking and overcoming the gaps between. > > However minding the gap indicates the profound necessity of the gap > ITSELF. > > If we fail to "mind" (or bridge) the gap is the gap still a constitutive > aspect IN ITSELF? > > For example, with gesture, there is the rhythmic movement in relation to > the other. However, besides the two participants moving in rhythm is the > reality of the gap (or intervals) that "open" within the rhythmic gestures > also another profoundly relevant factor in the ensuing rhythmic gestures? > > I am "reading" the concept "gap" as a key metaphor. > > Eric Fromm described western notions of God as residing in a person's > beliefs (thoughts) of God. > > In contrast Buddhism and Taoism focus not on beliefs but on right > "action". They also have sophisticated elaborations of the "gap". > > I have a hunch that there is something "beyond" our belief and beyond > "bridging" that is continually opening gaps and intervals as new vistas > within our acts. > > This something beyond our structurings has been called the "inner > feeling" of the event (not to be confused with the "inner feeling" of a > single person's mind. > > > > A concrete example is the structure of the concept "reading fluency". > Three characteristics have been "identified in this concept (word accuracy > - rate of words in a measured time - prosody or tone). > > I am suggesting this third characteristic -prosody/tone - is the "inner > feeling" within the event of reading fluency. > > This has to do with rhythm and gaps. > > Are saccadic eye movements and the rhythm of prosody sharing a family > resemblance (not an identity) that comes back to Dewey's notion of having > an experience? > > Larry > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "HENRY SHONERD" > > Sent: ?2015-?10-?01 12:40 PM > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of > visualillusions. > > > > Something that has intrigued me, and may be relevant to the thread, has > been how I can ?freeze? the movement of my overhead fans by voluntarily > jerking my eyes back and forth as I gaze at the revolving fan blades. When > I keep my eyes fixed, the blades blur. When I jerk my eyes back and forth, > the blades seem to stop. Or so I perceive it. In the Pelaprat & Cole > article (2011) on mending the gap, Etienne and Mike discuss saccadic eye > movements as ?central to the perception of the world?. > > Henry > > > >> On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> > >> On 1 October 2015 at 19:27, Martin John Packer > > >> wrote: > >> > >>> So it's filling the gap again! :) > >>> > >> > >> Or minding it, yes. > >> > >> > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:16 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >>> > >>>> On 1 October 2015 at 19:13, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 1 October 2015 at 19:11, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Huw, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Might this be an artifact of the digital encoding of the video? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Could you head to a tube station and try it with a real train? :) > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I suspect you'd need strobe lighting. > >>>>> > >>>>> Huw > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> E.g. > >>>> > >>>> https://vimeo.com/116582567 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Martin > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Huw Lloyd > >>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation > of a > >>>>>> tube > >>>>>>> train: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>> > https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little > interesting > >>> to > >>>>>>> discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception > of > >>> the > >>>>>>> direction of the train. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining > >>> that > >>>>>> I > >>>>>>> can see an object within the train moving in the direction I wish, > so > >>>>>> that > >>>>>>> perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the perception > of > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>> train can be shuttled back and forth. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London > >>> would > >>>>>>> influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at > which > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>> train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming > into a > >>>>>>> platform would usually, I think, be going slower. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Best, > >>>>>>> Huw > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Oct 5 16:30:22 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 16:30:22 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visualillusions. In-Reply-To: References: <2A6C4216-DC8A-4B78-A593-22CEC4770E1E@uniandes.edu.co> <4824F9FE-003B-4844-B9A6-2C188194A0B0@uniandes.edu.co> <6FDA5448-952A-4FEC-B452-AFD43F15B107@gmail.com> <560da2f4.e7e4440a.d2610.6d22@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Henry, The notion of "inner feeling" within situations which is felt through participation in situations is a notion that is gestured towards in early hermeneutical writings. The assumption that the situation itself expresses a feeling which then becomes articulated. I believe Dewey's "Having an Experience" that is aesthetic is an example of articulating this phenomena. However the ordinary situation also has this character. The second aspect [notions of the temporal] I also am curious to explore further. The temporal domain in the saccadic movement of "minding the gap" is one example. I would also point to Fonagy's work on primary intersubjectivity and his central idea of "felt attunement between mother and infant. What is critical in his analysis is the centrality of MARKED affect. If the mother just mimics or copies the babies expressions [mirrors the baby's affect it produces extreme dis-stress and dis-regulation. However, if the mother "modulates" her responsiveness [changing the rhythm, amplifying or softening the tone etc. the infant is animated remaining engaged in the reciprocal felt "dance" of attunement. I read this as another aspect of "minding the gap" Finally I will give the example of scientism that holds an ideal of "repeatability" as producing a one to one relation. I wonder if the dis-tress culturally of the expectation of meeting "standards" that are measured and repeatable can be understood as analogous to the mirroring affect that creates extreme agitation in new born infants. The way our theories present different notions of the "structure" of temporality may be implicated in this pre-occupation with a "mechanical" mirroring notion of repeatability and representation and mimesis. I will offer one particular interpretation of temporality that may get beyond what Richard Bernstein calls Cartesian Anxiety. Cartesian anxiety is an either/or anxiety. EITHER there must exist some foundational objective criteria from which to proceed OR their is only free floating relativism and no way to determine the merits of different possibilities. Heiddeger's notion of a characteristic of temporality he calls "thrown possibility" The recognition that we are "thrown" into the "given" of our situations and cannot escape this reality as a primary material factor. Equally primary is that within this given we have the possibility to imagine the "not yet" possible [but could be] of future anticipation. The relation of determinate giveness [the thrown] and the equally indeterminate factor of the "not yet" imaginal seems to be a structure with potential to be further elaborated. I will summarize by saying "inner feeling" that occurs within situations [subject matter that matters] is a characteristic or quality that requires modulation using analogous terms such as [attunement, oscillation, resonance] indicating a felt reality that then becomes articulated AFTER the felt understanding is already present. This is an "intersubjective" notion that says the felt situation is prior to the unfolding of subjectivity. It is one approach attempting to go beyond what Richard Bernstein identifies as an either/or anxiety at the heart of modernism. Henry, I am not sure if any of this is relevant, but Joseph Weiss writes about these topics in his dissertation focusing on the work of Benjamin and Adorno so may have some relevance. I myself am way "over my head" on these topics and need a ZPL [learning] to assist in my quest. But this is what I am exploring with the guidance of this learning community Larry On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 4:42 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Larry, >> As always, your post informs and inspires, though I doubt my own will be >> inspirational. I don?t mean it to be, even when how I say something seems >> to aspire to inspiration. >> >> Saccadic eye movements have especially been on my radar since I read that >> they are important to understanding both the cognitive grammar of Langacker >> and the gap minding of the CHAT. (Though Langacker devotes much less ink to >> it than the CHAT people.) It?s all about imagination. And CAN be about >> creativity, when imagination is disciplined and ethical. Or so I see it. >> >> Visual illusions are the key to magic. Misdirection. The idea that the >> world in our mind is simply a faithful, ?factual" replica of the world ?out >> there? is hard to shake. I would say that magic ranks up there with gesture >> as a generative metaphor for what it is to be and act as a human. >> >> I like the juxtaposition of structure and fluency, think it captures the >> connection between grammar and language use, grammar being usage based. You >> elaborate on reading fluency, but the idea is general, as you say: >> > "I have a hunch that there is something "beyond" our belief and beyond >> "bridging" that is continually opening gaps and intervals as new vistas >> within our acts. >> > This something beyond our structurings has been called the "inner >> feeling" of the event (not to be confused with the "inner feeling" of a >> single person's mind.? >> >> The idea of the ?'inner feeling? of the event? is intriguing. Would that >> relate in any way to inner speech, the way Vygotsky construes it? As in, >> how do I know what I am going to write until I?ve written it? >> >> I also like the juxtaposition of fluency and rhythm. Temporality. >> Somehow, the temporal domain seems to me to be the most basic of basic >> domains, even more basic than the spatial domain. Though I can?t prove it. >> It certainly feels that way to me. Does this go beyond the inner feeling in >> my individual mind? >> >> Henry >> >> >> > On Oct 1, 2015, at 3:17 PM, Lplarry wrote: >> > >> > Henry, >> > The saccadic eye movements indicating the centrality of minding the gap >> is literally a fact. >> > The question which this fact opens is the factor of gaps within other >> event structures. >> > For example when exploring structures being generated we imagine >> "bridges" linking and overcoming the gaps between. >> > However minding the gap indicates the profound necessity of the gap >> ITSELF. >> > If we fail to "mind" (or bridge) the gap is the gap still a >> constitutive aspect IN ITSELF? >> > For example, with gesture, there is the rhythmic movement in relation >> to the other. However, besides the two participants moving in rhythm is the >> reality of the gap (or intervals) that "open" within the rhythmic gestures >> also another profoundly relevant factor in the ensuing rhythmic gestures? >> > I am "reading" the concept "gap" as a key metaphor. >> > Eric Fromm described western notions of God as residing in a person's >> beliefs (thoughts) of God. >> > In contrast Buddhism and Taoism focus not on beliefs but on right >> "action". They also have sophisticated elaborations of the "gap". >> > I have a hunch that there is something "beyond" our belief and beyond >> "bridging" that is continually opening gaps and intervals as new vistas >> within our acts. >> > This something beyond our structurings has been called the "inner >> feeling" of the event (not to be confused with the "inner feeling" of a >> single person's mind. >> > >> > A concrete example is the structure of the concept "reading fluency". >> Three characteristics have been "identified in this concept (word accuracy >> - rate of words in a measured time - prosody or tone). >> > I am suggesting this third characteristic -prosody/tone - is the "inner >> feeling" within the event of reading fluency. >> > This has to do with rhythm and gaps. >> > Are saccadic eye movements and the rhythm of prosody sharing a family >> resemblance (not an identity) that comes back to Dewey's notion of having >> an experience? >> > Larry >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: "HENRY SHONERD" >> > Sent: ?2015-?10-?01 12:40 PM >> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of >> visualillusions. >> > >> > Something that has intrigued me, and may be relevant to the thread, has >> been how I can ?freeze? the movement of my overhead fans by voluntarily >> jerking my eyes back and forth as I gaze at the revolving fan blades. When >> I keep my eyes fixed, the blades blur. When I jerk my eyes back and forth, >> the blades seem to stop. Or so I perceive it. In the Pelaprat & Cole >> article (2011) on mending the gap, Etienne and Mike discuss saccadic eye >> movements as ?central to the perception of the world?. >> > Henry >> > >> >> On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 1 October 2015 at 19:27, Martin John Packer < >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> So it's filling the gap again! :) >> >>> >> >> >> >> Or minding it, yes. >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Martin >> >>> >> >>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:16 PM, Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> On 1 October 2015 at 19:13, Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On 1 October 2015 at 19:11, Martin John Packer < >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co >> >>>> >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Huw, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Might this be an artifact of the digital encoding of the video? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Could you head to a tube station and try it with a real train? :) >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I suspect you'd need strobe lighting. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Huw >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> E.g. >> >>>> >> >>>> https://vimeo.com/116582567 >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Martin >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Huw Lloyd >> >>> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation >> of a >> >>>>>> tube >> >>>>>>> train: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>> >> https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little >> interesting >> >>> to >> >>>>>>> discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception >> of >> >>> the >> >>>>>>> direction of the train. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining >> >>> that >> >>>>>> I >> >>>>>>> can see an object within the train moving in the direction I >> wish, so >> >>>>>> that >> >>>>>>> perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the >> perception of >> >>>>>> the >> >>>>>>> train can be shuttled back and forth. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London >> >>> would >> >>>>>>> influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at >> which >> >>>>>> the >> >>>>>>> train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming >> into a >> >>>>>>> platform would usually, I think, be going slower. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Best, >> >>>>>>> Huw >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> > >> > >> >> >> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Oct 6 07:58:59 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 07:58:59 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception ofvisualillusions. In-Reply-To: References: <2A6C4216-DC8A-4B78-A593-22CEC4770E1E@uniandes.edu.co> <4824F9FE-003B-4844-B9A6-2C188194A0B0@uniandes.edu.co> <6FDA5448-952A-4FEC-B452-AFD43F15B107@gmail.com> <560da2f4.e7e4440a.d2610.6d22@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5613e1b9.0802430a.4cfe2.0be0@mx.google.com> A fragment from Joe Weiss that may carry this thread along The idealist insistence from Kant onward that freedom possesses a *higher order essentiality*, bifurcated from the impulsive moment of SENSUOUS pleasure, was not simply a mark of their theoretical shortcoming, it signified their complicity with the concept at the expense of the EROS of mimesis, the happiness of a subject-object intimacy that is prior to and co-extensive with the concept -----Original Message----- From: "HENRY SHONERD" Sent: ?2015-?10-?04 4:43 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception ofvisualillusions. Larry, As always, your post informs and inspires, though I doubt my own will be inspirational. I don?t mean it to be, even when how I say something seems to aspire to inspiration. Saccadic eye movements have especially been on my radar since I read that they are important to understanding both the cognitive grammar of Langacker and the gap minding of the CHAT. (Though Langacker devotes much less ink to it than the CHAT people.) It?s all about imagination. And CAN be about creativity, when imagination is disciplined and ethical. Or so I see it. Visual illusions are the key to magic. Misdirection. The idea that the world in our mind is simply a faithful, ?factual" replica of the world ?out there? is hard to shake. I would say that magic ranks up there with gesture as a generative metaphor for what it is to be and act as a human. I like the juxtaposition of structure and fluency, think it captures the connection between grammar and language use, grammar being usage based. You elaborate on reading fluency, but the idea is general, as you say: > "I have a hunch that there is something "beyond" our belief and beyond "bridging" that is continually opening gaps and intervals as new vistas within our acts. > This something beyond our structurings has been called the "inner feeling" of the event (not to be confused with the "inner feeling" of a single person's mind.? The idea of the ?'inner feeling? of the event? is intriguing. Would that relate in any way to inner speech, the way Vygotsky construes it? As in, how do I know what I am going to write until I?ve written it? I also like the juxtaposition of fluency and rhythm. Temporality. Somehow, the temporal domain seems to me to be the most basic of basic domains, even more basic than the spatial domain. Though I can?t prove it. It certainly feels that way to me. Does this go beyond the inner feeling in my individual mind? Henry > On Oct 1, 2015, at 3:17 PM, Lplarry wrote: > > Henry, > The saccadic eye movements indicating the centrality of minding the gap is literally a fact. > The question which this fact opens is the factor of gaps within other event structures. > For example when exploring structures being generated we imagine "bridges" linking and overcoming the gaps between. > However minding the gap indicates the profound necessity of the gap ITSELF. > If we fail to "mind" (or bridge) the gap is the gap still a constitutive aspect IN ITSELF? > For example, with gesture, there is the rhythmic movement in relation to the other. However, besides the two participants moving in rhythm is the reality of the gap (or intervals) that "open" within the rhythmic gestures also another profoundly relevant factor in the ensuing rhythmic gestures? > I am "reading" the concept "gap" as a key metaphor. > Eric Fromm described western notions of God as residing in a person's beliefs (thoughts) of God. > In contrast Buddhism and Taoism focus not on beliefs but on right "action". They also have sophisticated elaborations of the "gap". > I have a hunch that there is something "beyond" our belief and beyond "bridging" that is continually opening gaps and intervals as new vistas within our acts. > This something beyond our structurings has been called the "inner feeling" of the event (not to be confused with the "inner feeling" of a single person's mind. > > A concrete example is the structure of the concept "reading fluency". Three characteristics have been "identified in this concept (word accuracy - rate of words in a measured time - prosody or tone). > I am suggesting this third characteristic -prosody/tone - is the "inner feeling" within the event of reading fluency. > This has to do with rhythm and gaps. > Are saccadic eye movements and the rhythm of prosody sharing a family resemblance (not an identity) that comes back to Dewey's notion of having an experience? > Larry > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "HENRY SHONERD" > Sent: ?2015-?10-?01 12:40 PM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: imagination and controlling the perception of visualillusions. > > Something that has intrigued me, and may be relevant to the thread, has been how I can ?freeze? the movement of my overhead fans by voluntarily jerking my eyes back and forth as I gaze at the revolving fan blades. When I keep my eyes fixed, the blades blur. When I jerk my eyes back and forth, the blades seem to stop. Or so I perceive it. In the Pelaprat & Cole article (2011) on mending the gap, Etienne and Mike discuss saccadic eye movements as ?central to the perception of the world?. > Henry > >> On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >> On 1 October 2015 at 19:27, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >> >>> So it's filling the gap again! :) >>> >> >> Or minding it, yes. >> >> >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:16 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: >>> >>>> On 1 October 2015 at 19:13, Huw Lloyd wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 1 October 2015 at 19:11, Martin John Packer >>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Huw, >>>>>> >>>>>> Might this be an artifact of the digital encoding of the video? >>>>>> >>>>>> Could you head to a tube station and try it with a real train? :) >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I suspect you'd need strobe lighting. >>>>> >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>> >>>> E.g. >>>> >>>> https://vimeo.com/116582567 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 1, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Huw Lloyd >>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I came across this meme/advert on linkedin, which is an animation of a >>>>>> tube >>>>>>> train: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> https://buffer-pictures.s3.amazonaws.com/c2f41e8d32861d26bdecfc62f0d979e3.f009ceaeaf27dba4eb65f2ca247e9513.php >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ignoring the glib annotation, it did seem to be a little interesting >>> to >>>>>>> discover if there was a reliable way to manipulate the perception of >>> the >>>>>>> direction of the train. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Interestingly, this is something that I find I can do by imagining >>> that >>>>>> I >>>>>>> can see an object within the train moving in the direction I wish, so >>>>>> that >>>>>>> perceived direction can be switched at will -- i.e. the perception of >>>>>> the >>>>>>> train can be shuttled back and forth. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not sure whether conditioning of memories of living in London >>> would >>>>>>> influence this (it is a London tube train). Also, the speed at which >>>>>> the >>>>>>> train is going suggests its going away, because a train coming into a >>>>>>> platform would usually, I think, be going slower. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Huw >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > > From smago@uga.edu Wed Oct 7 07:05:25 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 14:05:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Search Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: THIS IS A FORWARDED MESSAGE. PLEASE READ ITS CONTENTS CAREFULLY AND REPLY TO THE ORIGINAL SENDER RATHER THAN TO ME Dear Peter, Adrienne, David, Jerome, and Cecilia, I hope you are all well and I'm forwarding a new announcement for an Assistant Professorship in Higher Education with UNCC's Department of Educational Leadership if you could possibly distribute widely. It's a great department and Mark D'Amico (Associate Editor, Community College Review) is chairing the search. Sincerely, Spencer ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: D'Amico, Mark > Date: Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 9:36 AM Subject: Search Update To: Arthur Jackson >, Sandra Dika >, Spencer Salas > Cc: Alan Mabe >, Claudia Flowers > Colleagues, I am pleased to report that the search is on, and I encourage you to share the position announcement with anyone you think may be interested or any organization that may have a way to distribute it for us. Resources: * Link on the HR website: https://jobs.uncc.edu/postings/5641 * Link to Chronicle ad: https://chroniclevitae.com/jobs/0000903781-01 * Link to Higher Ed Jobs: https://www.higheredjobs.com/faculty/details.cfm?JobCode=176144362&Title=Assistant%20Professor%20of%20Educational%20Leadership--Higher%20Education * Link to Diverse ad: http://jobs.diversejobs.net/job/nc/charlotte/-assistant-professor-of-educational-leadership-A9401-3U9O * I also attached the PDF. Yesterday, I sent personal emails to colleagues at the following institutions: University of Nebraska, Ohio University, George Mason University, College of William and Mary, University of North Texas, Southern Illinois University, University of Alabama, University of Wyoming, Florida Atlantic University, Iowa State, Western Michigan University, UCLA, University of Georgia, Michigan State, University of Arkansas, NC State University, University of Houston, and the University of South Carolina. In less than a day, all but three have already responded. At least 6-7 indicated that they had already shared it with a particular student, and about half are planning to put the announcement on their program listservs. I also submitted the announcement to listservs for the Association for the Study of Higher Education and the Council for the Study of Community Colleges. I will begin monitoring the HR website soon and keep you posted as applications come it. Many thanks for your willingness to serve. Best, Mark -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark M. D'Amico, PhD Associate Professor of Educational Leadership Associate Editor and Book Review Editor, Community College Review UNC Charlotte | Dept. of Educational Leadership 9201 University City Blvd. | Charlotte, NC 28223 704-687-8539 | mmdamico@uncc.edu | http://edld.uncc.edu/directory/mark-damico -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Spencer Salas, Ph.D. Associate Professor/TESL Strand Coordinator, Ph.D. Curriculum and Instruction The University of North Carolina at Charlotte College of Education/Department of Middle, Secondary, and K-12 Education 9201 University City Blvd, Charlotte, NC 28223-0001 http://education.uncc.edu/directory/spencer-salas U.S. Latinos and Education Policy: Research-Based Directions for Change (2014) http://routledge-ny.com/books/details/9780415747837/ Vygotsky in 21st Century Society: Advances in Cultural Historical Theory and Praxis with Non-Dominant Communities (2011) http://www.peterlang.com/download/datasheet/58323/datasheet_311117.pdf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: UNC Charlotte Position Announcement.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 256234 bytes Desc: UNC Charlotte Position Announcement.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151007/ae07f6c1/attachment.pdf From smago@uga.edu Fri Oct 9 08:24:33 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:24:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] TESOL position at UGA! Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: TWLE asst_prof2016POST.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 72402 bytes Desc: TWLE asst_prof2016POST.docx Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151009/95dcb2d4/attachment.bin From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Oct 9 16:35:16 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 23:35:16 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] paper on models of addiction Message-ID: Hi happy Xmcars! I just finished reading this paper by Eugene Raikhel called "From the brain disease model to ecologies of addiction." (2015). I believe the author is Russian, though I am not sure. I found it in my academia.edu stream no less, likely because of my interest in models of mind. What I like about the paper is the author's integration of so many thinkers as well as his inclusion of pressures of capitalism into models for ecologies of addiction. The paper sort of stops suddenly in a kind of summation that (and I paraphrase), "we can all create a plural construct and discourse with the models that we have," without really explaining that too much, so that would be my only disappointment, hence a little anti-climactic. In any case, I thought this paper might resonate with members of this list. FWIW! [?] Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OutlookEmoji-?.png Type: image/png Size: 488 bytes Desc: =?utf-8?B?T3V0bG9va0Vtb2ppLfCfmIoucG5n?= Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151009/b3c98074/attachment-0001.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Raikhel_Re-Visioning_Psychiatry_2015.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1516191 bytes Desc: Raikhel_Re-Visioning_Psychiatry_2015.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151009/b3c98074/attachment-0001.pdf From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Oct 9 17:08:52 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:08:52 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Reflective Discourse on XMCA Message-ID: Dear Colleagues -- From its inception, one significant feature of xlchc/xmca was that conversations seems to go on for a while and kind of peter out (if they started at all) and it was rare for participants to return to consider what they had written before and what, perhaps, collectively, might be learned from the chatting. I liken the process to Vygotskian chaining. Interesting. Individuals display what they have taken away when they write later on, I often feel like a have learned a lot. But still, we seem to have no way to turn around to examine the results of a given conversation, no matter how exciting it seemed at the time. Thanks to Katie Simpson, the Comm Dept/LCHC grad student who assists in production of MCA, and thanks to the discussion that Rolf and Alfredo provided us in their discussion of the ideas of Leigh Star, maybe we have the beginnings of a socio-technical solution to what for me, at least, is a problem. What Katie has done is to peel away all the headers and present quoted messages in different threads that emerged during the discussion. Then she categorized these into Introduction & Conclusion Boundary Objects Space and Place Imagination I have no idea if anyone is interested in using these materials to revisit what we discussed earlier and perhaps to come up with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved. Do the three threads, now with the noisy pixels dissolved away, form any more general pattern? For me, for example, the role of imagination in relation to boundary objects has been very helpful. And others? I attach for now only the introduction. I am not sure which if any of the three sub-topics people might like to discuss or in what order. We have a while before the new and ever exciting issue of MCA comes out, so perhaps a time to pause, and reflect? mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Abridged - Intro&Conclusion.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 142595 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151009/cdc05395/attachment.bin From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Oct 9 22:34:41 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 05:34:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: paper on models of addiction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello again, Oddly, this appeared in my email box as well, today which seems to offer a refection of position to the previous paper I posted. http://aeon.co/magazine/psychology/why-cant-we-unite-neuroscience-and-psychiatry/ I'm not sure if this means I have mind on the brain, or mindbrain of the mind, but I hope you don't mind that I've posted it! Kind regards, Annalisa From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Oct 10 08:08:13 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:08:13 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: paper on models of addiction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Seems like another piece driven by subject-object dualism and in which the problem is the unanswerable question being asked. E.g., what makes the author think that depression exists in the brain? (maybe someone out there could put together a DCog analogue for Psychiatry? Distributed Psychiatry? or maybe Distributed Mental Illness?). -greg On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 11:34 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello again, > > Oddly, this appeared in my email box as well, today which seems to offer a > refection of position to the previous paper I posted. > > > http://aeon.co/magazine/psychology/why-cant-we-unite-neuroscience-and-psychiatry/ > > I'm not sure if this means I have mind on the brain, or mindbrain of the > mind, but I hope you don't mind that I've posted it! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Oct 10 08:52:04 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 08:52:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Boundary Objects Message-ID: Attached is the first set of discussion methods focused on the topic of boundary objects. Global warming has come to SD, it feel like the middle of August! mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Abridged - Boundary Object(s).docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 162260 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151010/b99ef15d/attachment.bin From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Oct 10 12:46:50 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 19:46:50 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: paper on models of addiction In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Greg, Exactly! The subject-object stance ties into the observation made by Raikhel in this paper and how the model of addiction as a brain disease affects how we actually treat victims of addiction, which of course are not only the addicts, but the society overall. According to Raikhel, this model also affects how projects are designed and funded. Does any of this sound familiar?? Then, how do we think about the person? as a "broken machine" who calculates incorrectly? or as a damaged product resulting from "bad" socialization? My interest is in exploring how there is an identifiable model of mind there. And then, how we act upon that model as if it were a real thing. Which may tie into ontological discussions, I don't know? An important point as well is also how models become reified in the mainstream layperson's understanding, which seems to be immediately commodified and reproducible. So that has to do with experts and novices and how they speak about the model. Kind regards, Annalisa From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Oct 10 13:03:09 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 14:03:09 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: paper on models of addiction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Annalisa, I missed the part by Raikhel. Looks like it was attached to a prior email. Perhaps you could offer a brief summary of that piece? Absolutely, this ties to ontology - what is this thing that we call "depression"? Long standing conversation about this kind of thing in psychological anthropology circles, but perhaps the full on ontological critique hasn't yet been applied to it? -greg On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > Exactly! The subject-object stance ties into the observation made by > Raikhel in this paper and how the model of addiction as a brain disease > affects how we actually treat victims of addiction, which of course are not > only the addicts, but the society overall. > > According to Raikhel, this model also affects how projects are designed > and funded. Does any of this sound familiar?? > > Then, how do we think about the person? as a "broken machine" who > calculates incorrectly? or as a damaged product resulting from "bad" > socialization? > > My interest is in exploring how there is an identifiable model of mind > there. And then, how we act upon that model as if it were a real thing. > Which may tie into ontological discussions, I don't know? > > An important point as well is also how models become reified in the > mainstream layperson's understanding, which seems to be immediately > commodified and reproducible. So that has to do with experts and novices > and how they speak about the model. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Oct 10 13:17:19 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 20:17:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: paper on models of addiction In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Greg, Yes, the paper was attached to the first of this subject header. It's a good read. At the moment I'm not free to make a synopsis, though I could try later? My reason for posting is again my interest in models of mind, but what I liked in it is Raikhel's observation of theory into practice, and those theories (he was on board with) seem to me to resonate a lot with CHAT. It also made me think of the paper we discussed last summer about the rehabilitation of that young woman who did the music video, and I'm sorry I can't recall the author at the moment. Please forgive me! So not only is it the question "what is depression?" but also "what is addiction?" And beneath all that, I might posit "What is self?" which Raikhel touched on too. Kind regards, From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sat Oct 10 15:58:21 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 22:58:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: paper on models of addiction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7FAFA1CA-389D-4908-A38C-F0421F2CEFEE@uniandes.edu.co> Ronald Laing: schizophrenia is the only sane way to live in a crazy world... Martin On Oct 10, 2015, at 10:08 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > (maybe someone out there could put together a DCog analogue for Psychiatry? > Distributed Psychiatry? or maybe Distributed Mental Illness?). > > -greg > From ablunden@mira.net Sat Oct 10 16:16:00 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 10:16:00 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Boundary Objects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56199C30.1050503@mira.net> Well done, Katie! That is a fine resource. Perhaps these will end up on a website somewhere, too! And Climate Change has hit this side of the Pacific as well, Mike, with 35degC in the first week of October, never before recorded. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 11/10/2015 2:52 AM, mike cole wrote: > Attached is the first set of discussion methods focused on the topic of > boundary objects. > Global warming has come to SD, it feel like the middle of August! > > mike > From bella.kotik@gmail.com Sun Oct 11 01:12:28 2015 From: bella.kotik@gmail.com (Bella Kotik-Friedgut) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 11:12:28 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Boundary Objects In-Reply-To: <56199C30.1050503@mira.net> References: <56199C30.1050503@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy dear! Many happy returns of that day! Good luck! Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:16 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Well done, Katie! That is a fine resource. Perhaps these will end up on a > website somewhere, too! > And Climate Change has hit this side of the Pacific as well, Mike, with > 35degC in the first week of October, never before recorded. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 11/10/2015 2:52 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> Attached is the first set of discussion methods focused on the topic of >> boundary objects. >> Global warming has come to SD, it feel like the middle of August! >> >> mike >> >> > From carolmacdon@gmail.com Mon Oct 12 01:52:33 2015 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:52:33 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Boundary Objects In-Reply-To: <56199C30.1050503@mira.net> References: <56199C30.1050503@mira.net> Message-ID: A heatwave here in South Africa, with Pretoria running at 35 degrees and water restrictions put into place. These temperatures virtually *never* happen here, and never for more than a day, and this is projected over 10 days. El Nino, you are not welcome here! On 11 October 2015 at 01:16, Andy Blunden wrote: > Well done, Katie! That is a fine resource. Perhaps these will end up on a > website somewhere, too! > And Climate Change has hit this side of the Pacific as well, Mike, with > 35degC in the first week of October, never before recorded. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > On 11/10/2015 2:52 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> Attached is the first set of discussion methods focused on the topic of >> boundary objects. >> Global warming has come to SD, it feel like the middle of August! >> >> mike >> >> > -- Carol A Macdonald PhD (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa Behind every gifted woman there is often a remarkable cat. From rolfsteier@gmail.com Tue Oct 13 05:00:52 2015 From: rolfsteier@gmail.com (Rolf Steier) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 14:00:52 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you for putting this together! I think this will be a great resource, and I'm particularly interested in looking back at the "space/ place" and "imagination" threads. rolf On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 2:08 AM, mike cole wrote: > Dear Colleagues -- From its inception, one significant feature of > xlchc/xmca was that conversations seems to go on for a while and kind of > peter out (if they started at all) and it was rare for participants to > return to consider what they had written before and what, perhaps, > collectively, might be learned from the chatting. I liken the process to > Vygotskian chaining. Interesting. Individuals display what they have taken > away when they write later on, I often > feel like a have learned a lot. > > But still, we seem to have no way to turn around to examine the results of > a given conversation, no matter how exciting it seemed at the time. > > Thanks to Katie Simpson, the Comm Dept/LCHC grad student who assists in > production of MCA, and thanks to the discussion that Rolf and Alfredo > provided us in their discussion of the ideas of Leigh Star, maybe we have > the beginnings of a socio-technical solution to what for me, at least, is a > problem. > > What Katie has done is to peel away all the headers and present quoted > messages in different threads that > emerged during the discussion. Then she categorized these into > Introduction & Conclusion > Boundary Objects > Space and Place > Imagination > > I have no idea if anyone is interested in using these materials to revisit > what we discussed earlier and perhaps to > come up with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved. > Do the three threads, now with the > noisy pixels dissolved away, form any more general pattern? For me, for > example, the role of imagination in relation to boundary objects has been > very helpful. And others? > > I attach for now only the introduction. I am not sure which if any of the > three sub-topics people might like to discuss or in what order. > > We have a while before the new and ever exciting issue of MCA comes out, > so perhaps a time to pause, and reflect? > > mike > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Oct 13 08:43:41 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 08:43:41 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Rolf-- >From the evidence so far, reflection in the form we have piloted has not proven a compelling activity for mca-o-phytes. I will post the remaining two topics and lets see if any public discussion follows. Perhaps the lack of collective reflection has deeper roots than the difficulty of pulling together the relevant pieces in a single, quasi-organized file. mike On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 5:00 AM, Rolf Steier wrote: > Thank you for putting this together! I think this will be a great > resource, and I'm particularly interested in looking back at the "space/ > place" and "imagination" threads. > rolf > > On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 2:08 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues -- From its inception, one significant feature of >> xlchc/xmca was that conversations seems to go on for a while and kind of >> peter out (if they started at all) and it was rare for participants to >> return to consider what they had written before and what, perhaps, >> collectively, might be learned from the chatting. I liken the process to >> Vygotskian chaining. Interesting. Individuals display what they have taken >> away when they write later on, I often >> feel like a have learned a lot. >> >> But still, we seem to have no way to turn around to examine the results >> of a given conversation, no matter how exciting it seemed at the time. >> >> Thanks to Katie Simpson, the Comm Dept/LCHC grad student who assists in >> production of MCA, and thanks to the discussion that Rolf and Alfredo >> provided us in their discussion of the ideas of Leigh Star, maybe we have >> the beginnings of a socio-technical solution to what for me, at least, is a >> problem. >> >> What Katie has done is to peel away all the headers and present quoted >> messages in different threads that >> emerged during the discussion. Then she categorized these into >> Introduction & Conclusion >> Boundary Objects >> Space and Place >> Imagination >> >> I have no idea if anyone is interested in using these materials to >> revisit what we discussed earlier and perhaps to >> come up with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved. >> Do the three threads, now with the >> noisy pixels dissolved away, form any more general pattern? For me, for >> example, the role of imagination in relation to boundary objects has been >> very helpful. And others? >> >> I attach for now only the introduction. I am not sure which if any of the >> three sub-topics people might like to discuss or in what order. >> >> We have a while before the new and ever exciting issue of MCA comes out, >> so perhaps a time to pause, and reflect? >> >> mike >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >> >> > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Abridged - Space&Place.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 145248 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151013/65e0cb33/attachment.bin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Abridged - Imagination.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 129401 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151013/65e0cb33/attachment-0001.bin From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Tue Oct 13 08:58:33 2015 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:58:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> Hi all, thanks a lot for putting this together. I sometimes struggle searching in the e-mail threads to recover some discussions, and I've been copying and pasting into word documents to keep track of ideas. This practice has proven useful to me, the thread that you and Katie have made now available for example having been a source of ideas for some of the things that I am working on now. So I find this initiative very compelling. But I also anticipate that it takes time to go through the thread. I guess we should expect different dynamics to emerge when someone posts an e-mail with some points and then others respond, as compared to when the e-mail is a larger thread of ideas having emerged during a long discussion. So, perhaps we do not yet know what reflection of the kind you are making possible looks like. I'll surely need some time to go through the thread and further contribute to the interesting topics. But I am in for it. Thanks, Alfredo ________________________________ From: lchcmike@gmail.com on behalf of mike cole Sent: 13 October 2015 17:43 To: Rolf Steier Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Alfredo Jornet Gil; Geoffrey C. Bowker Subject: Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA Hi Rolf-- >From the evidence so far, reflection in the form we have piloted has not proven a compelling activity for mca-o-phytes. I will post the remaining two topics and lets see if any public discussion follows. Perhaps the lack of collective reflection has deeper roots than the difficulty of pulling together the relevant pieces in a single, quasi-organized file. mike On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 5:00 AM, Rolf Steier > wrote: Thank you for putting this together! I think this will be a great resource, and I'm particularly interested in looking back at the "space/ place" and "imagination" threads. rolf On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 2:08 AM, mike cole > wrote: Dear Colleagues -- From its inception, one significant feature of xlchc/xmca was that conversations seems to go on for a while and kind of peter out (if they started at all) and it was rare for participants to return to consider what they had written before and what, perhaps, collectively, might be learned from the chatting. I liken the process to Vygotskian chaining. Interesting. Individuals display what they have taken away when they write later on, I often feel like a have learned a lot. But still, we seem to have no way to turn around to examine the results of a given conversation, no matter how exciting it seemed at the time. Thanks to Katie Simpson, the Comm Dept/LCHC grad student who assists in production of MCA, and thanks to the discussion that Rolf and Alfredo provided us in their discussion of the ideas of Leigh Star, maybe we have the beginnings of a socio-technical solution to what for me, at least, is a problem. What Katie has done is to peel away all the headers and present quoted messages in different threads that emerged during the discussion. Then she categorized these into Introduction & Conclusion Boundary Objects Space and Place Imagination I have no idea if anyone is interested in using these materials to revisit what we discussed earlier and perhaps to come up with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved. Do the three threads, now with the noisy pixels dissolved away, form any more general pattern? For me, for example, the role of imagination in relation to boundary objects has been very helpful. And others? I attach for now only the introduction. I am not sure which if any of the three sub-topics people might like to discuss or in what order. We have a while before the new and ever exciting issue of MCA comes out, so perhaps a time to pause, and reflect? mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Oct 13 09:50:47 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 09:50:47 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Yes, Alfredo, I have had the same thought. Since each of us "moves on" constantly, it can be difficult to "stop and reflect" because it means (in this case) taking the time to re-read the collected parts of the discussion and then to be able (possibly) to be able to abstract new insights from it. Our academic lives, especially in the current circumstances (which can only expect to get worse in this regard) are nano-managed and evaluated on an externally imposed time scale. PS-- And then, of course, there is the question of personal relevance. I am particularly interest at the moment in the issue of imagination, others will have other priorities. Experiments of this sort can be instructive, regardless of outcome. Time will tell! mike On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:58 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Hi all, > > > thanks a lot for putting this together. I sometimes struggle searching in > the e-mail threads to recover some discussions, and I've been copying and > pasting into word documents to keep track of > ideas. This practice has proven useful to me, the thread that you and Katie > have made now available for example having been a source of ideas for some > of the things that I am working on now. So I find this initiative very > compelling. But I also anticipate that it takes time to go through the > thread. I guess we should expect different dynamics to emerge when someone > posts an e-mail with some points and then others respond, as compared > to when the e-mail is a larger thread of ideas having emerged during a long > discussion. So, perhaps we do not yet know what reflection of the kind you > are making possible looks like. I'll surely need some time to go through > the thread and further contribute to the interesting topics. But I am in > for it. > > > Thanks, > > Alfredo > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* lchcmike@gmail.com on behalf of mike cole < > mcole@ucsd.edu> > *Sent:* 13 October 2015 17:43 > *To:* Rolf Steier > *Cc:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Alfredo Jornet Gil; Geoffrey C. > Bowker > *Subject:* Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > Hi Rolf-- > > From the evidence so far, reflection in the form we have piloted has not > proven a compelling activity for mca-o-phytes. I will post the remaining > two topics and lets see if any public discussion follows. Perhaps the lack > of collective reflection has deeper roots than the difficulty of pulling > together the relevant pieces in a single, quasi-organized file. > > mike > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 5:00 AM, Rolf Steier wrote: > >> Thank you for putting this together! I think this will be a great >> resource, and I'm particularly interested in looking back at the "space/ >> place" and "imagination" threads. >> rolf >> >> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 2:08 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Dear Colleagues -- From its inception, one significant feature of >>> xlchc/xmca was that conversations seems to go on for a while and kind of >>> peter out (if they started at all) and it was rare for participants to >>> return to consider what they had written before and what, perhaps, >>> collectively, might be learned from the chatting. I liken the process to >>> Vygotskian chaining. Interesting. Individuals display what they have taken >>> away when they write later on, I often >>> feel like a have learned a lot. >>> >>> But still, we seem to have no way to turn around to examine the results >>> of a given conversation, no matter how exciting it seemed at the time. >>> >>> Thanks to Katie Simpson, the Comm Dept/LCHC grad student who assists in >>> production of MCA, and thanks to the discussion that Rolf and Alfredo >>> provided us in their discussion of the ideas of Leigh Star, maybe we have >>> the beginnings of a socio-technical solution to what for me, at least, is a >>> problem. >>> >>> What Katie has done is to peel away all the headers and present quoted >>> messages in different threads that >>> emerged during the discussion. Then she categorized these into >>> Introduction & Conclusion >>> Boundary Objects >>> Space and Place >>> Imagination >>> >>> I have no idea if anyone is interested in using these materials to >>> revisit what we discussed earlier and perhaps to >>> come up with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved. >>> Do the three threads, now with the >>> noisy pixels dissolved away, form any more general pattern? For me, for >>> example, the role of imagination in relation to boundary objects has been >>> very helpful. And others? >>> >>> I attach for now only the introduction. I am not sure which if any of >>> the three sub-topics people might like to discuss or in what order. >>> >>> We have a while before the new and ever exciting issue of MCA comes out, >>> so perhaps a time to pause, and reflect? >>> >>> mike >>> >>> -- >>> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>> >>> >>> >> > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Oct 13 14:34:46 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:34:46 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> Mike, In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might ??come up with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved?. As you say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I can relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability of with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in time and place (from the here and now) and to the ?make believe? (?irrealis?). I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most people, if asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. Animals communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might be argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I would like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as the spatial, with displacement. Henry > On Oct 13, 2015, at 10:50 AM, mike cole wrote: > > Yes, Alfredo, I have had the same thought. Since each of us "moves on" > constantly, it can be difficult to "stop and reflect" because it means (in > this case) taking the time to re-read the collected parts of the discussion > and then to be able (possibly) to be able to abstract new insights from it. > Our academic lives, especially in the current circumstances (which can only > expect to get worse in this regard) are nano-managed and evaluated on an > externally imposed time scale. > > PS-- > And then, of course, there is the question of personal relevance. I am > particularly interest at the moment in the issue of imagination, others > will have other priorities. > Experiments of this sort can be instructive, regardless of outcome. > > Time will tell! > mike > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:58 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> >> thanks a lot for putting this together. I sometimes struggle searching in >> the e-mail threads to recover some discussions, and I've been copying and >> pasting into word documents to keep track of >> ideas. This practice has proven useful to me, the thread that you and Katie >> have made now available for example having been a source of ideas for some >> of the things that I am working on now. So I find this initiative very >> compelling. But I also anticipate that it takes time to go through the >> thread. I guess we should expect different dynamics to emerge when someone >> posts an e-mail with some points and then others respond, as compared >> to when the e-mail is a larger thread of ideas having emerged during a long >> discussion. So, perhaps we do not yet know what reflection of the kind you >> are making possible looks like. I'll surely need some time to go through >> the thread and further contribute to the interesting topics. But I am in >> for it. >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alfredo >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* lchcmike@gmail.com on behalf of mike cole < >> mcole@ucsd.edu> >> *Sent:* 13 October 2015 17:43 >> *To:* Rolf Steier >> *Cc:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Alfredo Jornet Gil; Geoffrey C. >> Bowker >> *Subject:* Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >> >> Hi Rolf-- >> >> From the evidence so far, reflection in the form we have piloted has not >> proven a compelling activity for mca-o-phytes. I will post the remaining >> two topics and lets see if any public discussion follows. Perhaps the lack >> of collective reflection has deeper roots than the difficulty of pulling >> together the relevant pieces in a single, quasi-organized file. >> >> mike >> >> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 5:00 AM, Rolf Steier wrote: >> >>> Thank you for putting this together! I think this will be a great >>> resource, and I'm particularly interested in looking back at the "space/ >>> place" and "imagination" threads. >>> rolf >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 2:08 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Colleagues -- From its inception, one significant feature of >>>> xlchc/xmca was that conversations seems to go on for a while and kind of >>>> peter out (if they started at all) and it was rare for participants to >>>> return to consider what they had written before and what, perhaps, >>>> collectively, might be learned from the chatting. I liken the process to >>>> Vygotskian chaining. Interesting. Individuals display what they have taken >>>> away when they write later on, I often >>>> feel like a have learned a lot. >>>> >>>> But still, we seem to have no way to turn around to examine the results >>>> of a given conversation, no matter how exciting it seemed at the time. >>>> >>>> Thanks to Katie Simpson, the Comm Dept/LCHC grad student who assists in >>>> production of MCA, and thanks to the discussion that Rolf and Alfredo >>>> provided us in their discussion of the ideas of Leigh Star, maybe we have >>>> the beginnings of a socio-technical solution to what for me, at least, is a >>>> problem. >>>> >>>> What Katie has done is to peel away all the headers and present quoted >>>> messages in different threads that >>>> emerged during the discussion. Then she categorized these into >>>> Introduction & Conclusion >>>> Boundary Objects >>>> Space and Place >>>> Imagination >>>> >>>> I have no idea if anyone is interested in using these materials to >>>> revisit what we discussed earlier and perhaps to >>>> come up with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved. >>>> Do the three threads, now with the >>>> noisy pixels dissolved away, form any more general pattern? For me, for >>>> example, the role of imagination in relation to boundary objects has been >>>> very helpful. And others? >>>> >>>> I attach for now only the introduction. I am not sure which if any of >>>> the three sub-topics people might like to discuss or in what order. >>>> >>>> We have a while before the new and ever exciting issue of MCA comes out, >>>> so perhaps a time to pause, and reflect? >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >> >> > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Tue Oct 13 15:08:57 2015 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 22:08:57 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> , <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> Henry, all, I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a software development company, and, observing a discussion between two developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to possibly create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, the developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but which nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin working on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes time and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" that you mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, very relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience of "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely here. Alfredo ________________________________ From: HENRY SHONERD Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA Mike, In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come up with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As you say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I can relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability of with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in time and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" ("irrealis"). I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most people, if asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. Animals communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might be argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I would like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as the spatial, with displacement. Henry From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Oct 13 15:45:16 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 23:45:16 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Alfredo, I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need qualification. Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with to-be-designed artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of things conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational paradigm would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the dawning realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, with respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which will be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. being paid to get something built. Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you may well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. Best, Huw On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Henry, all, > > > > I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a > software development company, and, observing a discussion between two > developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet > developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to possibly > create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one > alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, the > developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but which > nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin working > on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen > immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes time > and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" that you > mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, very > relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience of > "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely here. > > > Alfredo > > ________________________________ > From: HENRY SHONERD > Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > Mike, > In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come up > with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As you > say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I can > relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most > important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability of > with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in time > and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" ("irrealis"). > I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on > Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most people, if > asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. Animals > communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might be > argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I would > like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as the > spatial, with displacement. > > Henry > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Oct 13 16:03:05 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 00:03:05 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: On 13 October 2015 at 17:50, mike cole wrote: > Yes, Alfredo, I have had the same thought. Since each of us "moves on" > constantly, it can be difficult to "stop and reflect" because it means (in > this case) taking the time to re-read the collected parts of the discussion > and then to be able (possibly) to be able to abstract new insights from it. > Our academic lives, especially in the current circumstances (which can only > expect to get worse in this regard) are nano-managed and evaluated on an > externally imposed time scale. > Surely this is primarily a personality characteristic, i.e. the discovery that taking on difficult conceptual challenges yields rewards. During my 'formal' time of postgraduate research, I would hear from certain staff about postponing my interests, whilst they endeavoured to shoe-horn my research project into something trivial. That's institutions for you. In a similar vein, I am fairly convinced that the difficulty in doing good psychological research is that institutions are predominantly doing bad psychological research. "Stopping and reflecting" (and acting) in a sustained manner would be a threat to that. :) Best, Huw > > PS-- > And then, of course, there is the question of personal relevance. I am > particularly interest at the moment in the issue of imagination, others > will have other priorities. > Experiments of this sort can be instructive, regardless of outcome. > > Time will tell! > mike > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:58 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > thanks a lot for putting this together. I sometimes struggle searching in > > the e-mail threads to recover some discussions, and I've been copying and > > pasting into word documents to keep track of > > ideas. This practice has proven useful to me, the thread that you and > Katie > > have made now available for example having been a source of ideas for > some > > of the things that I am working on now. So I find this initiative very > > compelling. But I also anticipate that it takes time to go through the > > thread. I guess we should expect different dynamics to emerge when > someone > > posts an e-mail with some points and then others respond, as compared > > to when the e-mail is a larger thread of ideas having emerged during a > long > > discussion. So, perhaps we do not yet know what reflection of the kind > you > > are making possible looks like. I'll surely need some time to go through > > the thread and further contribute to the interesting topics. But I am in > > for it. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* lchcmike@gmail.com on behalf of mike cole < > > mcole@ucsd.edu> > > *Sent:* 13 October 2015 17:43 > > *To:* Rolf Steier > > *Cc:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Alfredo Jornet Gil; Geoffrey C. > > Bowker > > *Subject:* Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > > > Hi Rolf-- > > > > From the evidence so far, reflection in the form we have piloted has not > > proven a compelling activity for mca-o-phytes. I will post the remaining > > two topics and lets see if any public discussion follows. Perhaps the > lack > > of collective reflection has deeper roots than the difficulty of pulling > > together the relevant pieces in a single, quasi-organized file. > > > > mike > > > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 5:00 AM, Rolf Steier > wrote: > > > >> Thank you for putting this together! I think this will be a great > >> resource, and I'm particularly interested in looking back at the "space/ > >> place" and "imagination" threads. > >> rolf > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 2:08 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> > >>> Dear Colleagues -- From its inception, one significant feature of > >>> xlchc/xmca was that conversations seems to go on for a while and kind > of > >>> peter out (if they started at all) and it was rare for participants to > >>> return to consider what they had written before and what, perhaps, > >>> collectively, might be learned from the chatting. I liken the process > to > >>> Vygotskian chaining. Interesting. Individuals display what they have > taken > >>> away when they write later on, I often > >>> feel like a have learned a lot. > >>> > >>> But still, we seem to have no way to turn around to examine the results > >>> of a given conversation, no matter how exciting it seemed at the time. > >>> > >>> Thanks to Katie Simpson, the Comm Dept/LCHC grad student who assists in > >>> production of MCA, and thanks to the discussion that Rolf and Alfredo > >>> provided us in their discussion of the ideas of Leigh Star, maybe we > have > >>> the beginnings of a socio-technical solution to what for me, at least, > is a > >>> problem. > >>> > >>> What Katie has done is to peel away all the headers and present quoted > >>> messages in different threads that > >>> emerged during the discussion. Then she categorized these into > >>> Introduction & Conclusion > >>> Boundary Objects > >>> Space and Place > >>> Imagination > >>> > >>> I have no idea if anyone is interested in using these materials to > >>> revisit what we discussed earlier and perhaps to > >>> come up with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues > involved. > >>> Do the three threads, now with the > >>> noisy pixels dissolved away, form any more general pattern? For me, for > >>> example, the role of imagination in relation to boundary objects has > been > >>> very helpful. And others? > >>> > >>> I attach for now only the introduction. I am not sure which if any of > >>> the three sub-topics people might like to discuss or in what order. > >>> > >>> We have a while before the new and ever exciting issue of MCA comes > out, > >>> so perhaps a time to pause, and reflect? > >>> > >>> mike > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Oct 13 16:03:05 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 00:03:05 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: On 13 October 2015 at 17:50, mike cole wrote: > Yes, Alfredo, I have had the same thought. Since each of us "moves on" > constantly, it can be difficult to "stop and reflect" because it means (in > this case) taking the time to re-read the collected parts of the discussion > and then to be able (possibly) to be able to abstract new insights from it. > Our academic lives, especially in the current circumstances (which can only > expect to get worse in this regard) are nano-managed and evaluated on an > externally imposed time scale. > Surely this is primarily a personality characteristic, i.e. the discovery that taking on difficult conceptual challenges yields rewards. During my 'formal' time of postgraduate research, I would hear from certain staff about postponing my interests, whilst they endeavoured to shoe-horn my research project into something trivial. That's institutions for you. In a similar vein, I am fairly convinced that the difficulty in doing good psychological research is that institutions are predominantly doing bad psychological research. "Stopping and reflecting" (and acting) in a sustained manner would be a threat to that. :) Best, Huw > > PS-- > And then, of course, there is the question of personal relevance. I am > particularly interest at the moment in the issue of imagination, others > will have other priorities. > Experiments of this sort can be instructive, regardless of outcome. > > Time will tell! > mike > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:58 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > thanks a lot for putting this together. I sometimes struggle searching in > > the e-mail threads to recover some discussions, and I've been copying and > > pasting into word documents to keep track of > > ideas. This practice has proven useful to me, the thread that you and > Katie > > have made now available for example having been a source of ideas for > some > > of the things that I am working on now. So I find this initiative very > > compelling. But I also anticipate that it takes time to go through the > > thread. I guess we should expect different dynamics to emerge when > someone > > posts an e-mail with some points and then others respond, as compared > > to when the e-mail is a larger thread of ideas having emerged during a > long > > discussion. So, perhaps we do not yet know what reflection of the kind > you > > are making possible looks like. I'll surely need some time to go through > > the thread and further contribute to the interesting topics. But I am in > > for it. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* lchcmike@gmail.com on behalf of mike cole < > > mcole@ucsd.edu> > > *Sent:* 13 October 2015 17:43 > > *To:* Rolf Steier > > *Cc:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Alfredo Jornet Gil; Geoffrey C. > > Bowker > > *Subject:* Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > > > Hi Rolf-- > > > > From the evidence so far, reflection in the form we have piloted has not > > proven a compelling activity for mca-o-phytes. I will post the remaining > > two topics and lets see if any public discussion follows. Perhaps the > lack > > of collective reflection has deeper roots than the difficulty of pulling > > together the relevant pieces in a single, quasi-organized file. > > > > mike > > > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 5:00 AM, Rolf Steier > wrote: > > > >> Thank you for putting this together! I think this will be a great > >> resource, and I'm particularly interested in looking back at the "space/ > >> place" and "imagination" threads. > >> rolf > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 2:08 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> > >>> Dear Colleagues -- From its inception, one significant feature of > >>> xlchc/xmca was that conversations seems to go on for a while and kind > of > >>> peter out (if they started at all) and it was rare for participants to > >>> return to consider what they had written before and what, perhaps, > >>> collectively, might be learned from the chatting. I liken the process > to > >>> Vygotskian chaining. Interesting. Individuals display what they have > taken > >>> away when they write later on, I often > >>> feel like a have learned a lot. > >>> > >>> But still, we seem to have no way to turn around to examine the results > >>> of a given conversation, no matter how exciting it seemed at the time. > >>> > >>> Thanks to Katie Simpson, the Comm Dept/LCHC grad student who assists in > >>> production of MCA, and thanks to the discussion that Rolf and Alfredo > >>> provided us in their discussion of the ideas of Leigh Star, maybe we > have > >>> the beginnings of a socio-technical solution to what for me, at least, > is a > >>> problem. > >>> > >>> What Katie has done is to peel away all the headers and present quoted > >>> messages in different threads that > >>> emerged during the discussion. Then she categorized these into > >>> Introduction & Conclusion > >>> Boundary Objects > >>> Space and Place > >>> Imagination > >>> > >>> I have no idea if anyone is interested in using these materials to > >>> revisit what we discussed earlier and perhaps to > >>> come up with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues > involved. > >>> Do the three threads, now with the > >>> noisy pixels dissolved away, form any more general pattern? For me, for > >>> example, the role of imagination in relation to boundary objects has > been > >>> very helpful. And others? > >>> > >>> I attach for now only the introduction. I am not sure which if any of > >>> the three sub-topics people might like to discuss or in what order. > >>> > >>> We have a while before the new and ever exciting issue of MCA comes > out, > >>> so perhaps a time to pause, and reflect? > >>> > >>> mike > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Oct 13 16:38:35 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 17:38:35 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded naming? I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be named. A verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes when operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst the experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse generally? That would provide nice praxis. Respectfully, Henry > On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > Alfredo, > > I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need qualification. > Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with to-be-designed > artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of things > conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are > usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly > knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). > > Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational paradigm > would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the dawning > realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, with > respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft > requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which will > be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. being > paid to get something built. > > Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate > functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable > establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you may > well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. > > Best, > Huw > > On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > >> Henry, all, >> >> >> >> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a >> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two >> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet >> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to possibly >> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one >> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, the >> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but which >> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin working >> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen >> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes time >> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" that you >> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, very >> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience of >> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely here. >> >> >> Alfredo >> >> ________________________________ >> From: HENRY SHONERD >> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >> >> Mike, >> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come up >> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As you >> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I can >> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most >> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability of >> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in time >> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" ("irrealis"). >> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on >> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most people, if >> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. Animals >> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might be >> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I would >> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as the >> spatial, with displacement. >> >> Henry >> >> From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Wed Oct 14 07:44:00 2015 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:44:00 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> , <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> Huw, thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. The software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained sense of "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing paradigm. Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them to be able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also drawings, gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there was some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced makes me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported with respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings attention to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities (bodies). I am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the work of producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind of situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend to Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) that both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to orienting towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation alone, it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the materials offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of naming, of using words. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded naming? I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be named. A verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes when operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst the experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse generally? That would provide nice praxis. Respectfully, Henry > On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > Alfredo, > > I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need qualification. > Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with to-be-designed > artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of things > conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are > usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly > knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). > > Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational paradigm > would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the dawning > realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, with > respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft > requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which will > be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. being > paid to get something built. > > Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate > functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable > establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you may > well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. > > Best, > Huw > > On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > >> Henry, all, >> >> >> >> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a >> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two >> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet >> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to possibly >> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one >> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, the >> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but which >> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin working >> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen >> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes time >> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" that you >> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, very >> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience of >> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely here. >> >> >> Alfredo >> >> ________________________________ >> From: HENRY SHONERD >> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >> >> Mike, >> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come up >> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As you >> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I can >> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most >> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability of >> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in time >> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" ("irrealis"). >> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on >> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most people, if >> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. Animals >> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might be >> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I would >> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as the >> spatial, with displacement. >> >> Henry >> >> From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 14 07:46:17 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 07:46:17 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> Message-ID: Life is intervening between me and an answer to your first message and those that have followed, Henry. With luck I will get time to read back through the threads and the original article in order not to avoid comments that "replicate" as you put it above. In your initial note you pointed to the phenomenon of disPLACEment that Alfredo picked up on. My mind went immediately the relation between displacement and imagination (you have our "minding the gap" paper on imagination?). I see the same set of issues in your comment in this note that: And does this have anything to do with Huw?s conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get outside the box?? No displacement, no gap. No gap, nothing new, rather, we are at the "replication" end of Huw's continuum, as you refer to it. Back when I get my homework done. mike On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 4:38 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on > boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded naming? > I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated > movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be named. A > verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s > conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that > replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get > outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, > loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes when > operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst the > experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the > project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and > abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse > generally? That would provide nice praxis. > > Respectfully, > Henry > > > On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > > Alfredo, > > > > I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need qualification. > > Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with > to-be-designed > > artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of > things > > conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are > > usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly > > knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). > > > > Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational > paradigm > > would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the > dawning > > realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, > with > > respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft > > requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which > will > > be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. > being > > paid to get something built. > > > > Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate > > functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable > > establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you > may > > well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > >> Henry, all, > >> > >> > >> > >> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a > >> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two > >> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet > >> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to > possibly > >> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one > >> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, > the > >> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but > which > >> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin > working > >> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen > >> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes > time > >> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" that > you > >> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, > very > >> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience of > >> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely > here. > >> > >> > >> Alfredo > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: HENRY SHONERD > >> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker > >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > >> > >> Mike, > >> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come > up > >> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As you > >> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I > can > >> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most > >> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability > of > >> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in > time > >> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" > ("irrealis"). > >> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on > >> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most people, > if > >> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. > Animals > >> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might > be > >> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I > would > >> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as the > >> spatial, with displacement. > >> > >> Henry > >> > >> > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 14 07:50:30 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 07:50:30 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Alfredo Might it be that words are NEVER enough? That all comprehension of another's words require imagination? Its just that sometimes the gap to be filled falls within a kind of normative range that is a difference that does NOT make a difference, while others require sufficient discontinuity to require intentional/conscious effort to bridge in a *satisficing* way. mike On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:44 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Huw, > thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. The > software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained sense of > "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing paradigm. > Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them to be > able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being > designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just > (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also drawings, > gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there was > some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced makes > me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of > (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am > observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. > > Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported with > respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings attention > to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities (bodies). I > am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the > differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the work of > producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind of > situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend to > Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the > material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for > those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) that > both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift > involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to orienting > towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be > interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical > conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this > account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to > lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination > takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation alone, > it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the materials > offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of naming, > of using words. > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of > HENRY SHONERD > Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on > boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded naming? > I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated > movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be named. A > verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s > conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that > replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get > outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, > loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes when > operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst the > experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the > project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and > abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse > generally? That would provide nice praxis. > > Respectfully, > Henry > > > On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > > Alfredo, > > > > I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need qualification. > > Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with > to-be-designed > > artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of > things > > conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are > > usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly > > knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). > > > > Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational > paradigm > > would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the > dawning > > realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, > with > > respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft > > requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which > will > > be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. > being > > paid to get something built. > > > > Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate > > functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable > > establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you > may > > well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > >> Henry, all, > >> > >> > >> > >> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a > >> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two > >> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet > >> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to > possibly > >> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one > >> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, > the > >> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but > which > >> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin > working > >> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen > >> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes > time > >> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" that > you > >> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, > very > >> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience of > >> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely > here. > >> > >> > >> Alfredo > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: HENRY SHONERD > >> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker > >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > >> > >> Mike, > >> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come > up > >> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As you > >> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I > can > >> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most > >> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability > of > >> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in > time > >> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" > ("irrealis"). > >> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on > >> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most people, > if > >> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. > Animals > >> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might > be > >> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I > would > >> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as the > >> spatial, with displacement. > >> > >> Henry > >> > >> > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From Peg.Griffin@att.net Wed Oct 14 08:24:26 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:24:26 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <003b01d10694$6a058c50$3e10a4f0$@att.net> Mike, do you recall the juxtaposed triangles we used when we were analyzing Alejandro and Benny's reading with an adult? Here's how I recall it: Each figure had two incomplete equilateral triangles sharing a baseline, one with the apex up and the other with the apex down. The whole came out kind of like a diamond shape but, on the right side of the page, it was the sides didn't meet -- leaving the future open. The author, the teacher and the child put in what they could but where it went no-one could know... Another tidbit for the stone soup of ideas: you wrote "a difference that does not make a difference" -- briding form linguistics terminology we might call it "allo-meanings" (see allophones as the model). Peg -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:51 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA Alfredo Might it be that words are NEVER enough? That all comprehension of another's words require imagination? Its just that sometimes the gap to be filled falls within a kind of normative range that is a difference that does NOT make a difference, while others require sufficient discontinuity to require intentional/conscious effort to bridge in a *satisficing* way. mike On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:44 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Huw, > thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. > The software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained > sense of "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing paradigm. > Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them > to be able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby > being designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not > just (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also > drawings, gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, > and there was some form of imagination going on. So the distinction > you introduced makes me wonder how the situated work taking place > during a shift of > (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I > am observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. > > Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported > with respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings > attention to objects (materials) and their relation to our > sensitivities (bodies). I am thinking if this connection might be of > help to understand the differences between the work that minor > innovations involve and the work of producing major paradigm shifts. > Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind of situated social interactions > that we observe, we should (again) attend to Latour's discussion on > inter-objectivity, and see how the material-historical arrangements in > the setting set the conditions for those shifts to occur. At the level > of interaction, I can imagine (!) that both going through a minor > innovation and going through a major shift involve some movement from > not being aware of a possibility to orienting towards that very > possibility. Studying differences there would be interesting. But I > guess that the key lies in the prior historical conditions for the > innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this account, be a > form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to lend > themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination > takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation > alone, it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that > the materials offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of naming, of using words. > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of > HENRY SHONERD > Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on > boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded naming? > I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated > movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be > named. A verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do > with Huw?s conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one > end those that replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, > those that ?get outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very > nouny, Latinate, loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves > important purposes when operating on the generalization and > abstraction side of things, amongst the experts. But boundary objects > (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the project members are > strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and abstracting. Could > gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse generally? That would provide nice praxis. > > Respectfully, > Henry > > > On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > > Alfredo, > > > > I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need qualification. > > Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with > to-be-designed > > artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of > things > > conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are > > usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly > > knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). > > > > Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational > paradigm > > would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the > dawning > > realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). > > Also, > with > > respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft > > requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, > > which > will > > be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. > being > > paid to get something built. > > > > Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate > > functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable > > establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless > > you > may > > well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > wrote: > > > >> Henry, all, > >> > >> > >> > >> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work > >> in a software development company, and, observing a discussion > >> between two developers who talk about features of the software that > >> are not yet developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon > >> me that, to > possibly > >> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since > >> one alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name > >> it. So, > the > >> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but > which > >> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin > working > >> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen > >> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it > >> takes > time > >> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" > >> that > you > >> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the > >> imagining, > very > >> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the > >> salience of "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" > >> may be timely > here. > >> > >> > >> Alfredo > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: HENRY SHONERD > >> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker > >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > >> > >> Mike, > >> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might > >> "...come > up > >> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". > >> As you say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine > >> is that I > can > >> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most > >> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the > >> ability > of > >> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed > >> in > time > >> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" > ("irrealis"). > >> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on > >> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most > >> people, > if > >> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. > Animals > >> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It > >> might > be > >> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) > >> I > would > >> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as > >> the spatial, with displacement. > >> > >> Henry > >> > >> > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Oct 14 08:50:17 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:50:17 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Alfredo, Regarding "how the situated work taking place during a shift of (computational) paradigm would differ", generalising from my experience I usually see a breakdown in communication and an approach is taken in which the program is inched forward, perhaps akin to tacking to a coastline. What was a reasonable strategy for a quick solution transforms over time into an abuse of the language, such as 20 files consisting of nested if statements that are several hundred lines long used to parse text files. Depending upon the experience, common trigger scenarios might be: Object oriented programming. Inversion of control (using frameworks) Multithreaded programming. Functional programming But even when the language constructs are well known there can be disagreements concerning other basic representational and orientational constructs, such as what an event is, whether an input is interior or exterior to an encapsulation, whether value objects or identity objects are used, and whether the problem domain is actually articulated in the software. Regarding gesture, I would say that gestures index orientation mediated by conscious goals. So I would agree that gesture, rather than mere wording, helps to orient. But I would tend to disagree that gesture is 'foundational'. For me, orientation is king. It would be interesting to see if you make something else of it. Best, Huw On 14 October 2015 at 15:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Huw, > thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. The > software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained sense of > "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing paradigm. > Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them to be > able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being > designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just > (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also drawings, > gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there was > some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced makes > me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of > (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am > observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. > > Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported with > respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings attention > to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities (bodies). I > am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the > differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the work of > producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind of > situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend to > Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the > material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for > those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) that > both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift > involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to orienting > towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be > interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical > conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this > account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to > lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination > takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation alone, > it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the materials > offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of naming, > of using words. > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of > HENRY SHONERD > Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on > boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded naming? > I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated > movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be named. A > verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s > conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that > replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get > outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, > loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes when > operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst the > experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the > project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and > abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse > generally? That would provide nice praxis. > > Respectfully, > Henry > > > On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > > Alfredo, > > > > I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need qualification. > > Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with > to-be-designed > > artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of > things > > conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are > > usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly > > knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). > > > > Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational > paradigm > > would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the > dawning > > realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, > with > > respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft > > requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which > will > > be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. > being > > paid to get something built. > > > > Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate > > functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable > > establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you > may > > well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > >> Henry, all, > >> > >> > >> > >> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a > >> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two > >> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet > >> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to > possibly > >> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one > >> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, > the > >> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but > which > >> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin > working > >> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen > >> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes > time > >> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" that > you > >> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, > very > >> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience of > >> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely > here. > >> > >> > >> Alfredo > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: HENRY SHONERD > >> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker > >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > >> > >> Mike, > >> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come > up > >> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As you > >> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I > can > >> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most > >> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability > of > >> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in > time > >> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" > ("irrealis"). > >> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on > >> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most people, > if > >> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. > Animals > >> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might > be > >> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I > would > >> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as the > >> spatial, with displacement. > >> > >> Henry > >> > >> > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 14 08:49:49 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 08:49:49 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <003b01d10694$6a058c50$3e10a4f0$@att.net> References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> <003b01d10694$6a058c50$3e10a4f0$@att.net> Message-ID: That is a very useful reminder/suggestion, peg. I will look for the figure and post it, perhaps with a little text for con-text. thanks! mike On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:24 AM, Peg Griffin wrote: > Mike, do you recall the juxtaposed triangles we used when we were > analyzing Alejandro and Benny's reading with an adult? > Here's how I recall it: > Each figure had two incomplete equilateral triangles sharing a baseline, > one with the apex up and the other with the apex down. The whole came out > kind of like a diamond shape but, on the right side of the page, it was the > sides didn't meet -- leaving the future open. > The author, the teacher and the child put in what they could but where it > went no-one could know... > > Another tidbit for the stone soup of ideas: you wrote "a difference that > does not make a difference" -- briding form linguistics terminology we > might call it "allo-meanings" (see allophones as the model). > Peg > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike > cole > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:51 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > Alfredo > > Might it be that words are NEVER enough? That all comprehension of > another's words require imagination? Its just that sometimes the gap to be > filled falls within a kind of normative range that is a difference that > does NOT make a difference, while others require sufficient discontinuity > to require intentional/conscious effort to bridge in a *satisficing* way. > > mike > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:44 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > Huw, > > thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. > > The software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained > > sense of "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing > paradigm. > > Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them > > to be able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby > > being designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not > > just (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also > > drawings, gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, > > and there was some form of imagination going on. So the distinction > > you introduced makes me wonder how the situated work taking place > > during a shift of > > (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I > > am observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. > > > > Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported > > with respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings > > attention to objects (materials) and their relation to our > > sensitivities (bodies). I am thinking if this connection might be of > > help to understand the differences between the work that minor > > innovations involve and the work of producing major paradigm shifts. > > Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind of situated social interactions > > that we observe, we should (again) attend to Latour's discussion on > > inter-objectivity, and see how the material-historical arrangements in > > the setting set the conditions for those shifts to occur. At the level > > of interaction, I can imagine (!) that both going through a minor > > innovation and going through a major shift involve some movement from > > not being aware of a possibility to orienting towards that very > > possibility. Studying differences there would be interesting. But I > > guess that the key lies in the prior historical conditions for the > > innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this account, be a > > form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to lend > > themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination > > takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation > > alone, it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that > > the materials offer. And those possibilities, of course, include > possibilities of naming, of using words. > > > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of > > HENRY SHONERD > > Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > > > Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on > > boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded > naming? > > I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated > > movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be > > named. A verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do > > with Huw?s conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one > > end those that replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, > > those that ?get outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very > > nouny, Latinate, loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves > > important purposes when operating on the generalization and > > abstraction side of things, amongst the experts. But boundary objects > > (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the project members are > > strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and abstracting. Could > > gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse generally? That > would provide nice praxis. > > > > Respectfully, > > Henry > > > > > On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd > > wrote: > > > > > > Alfredo, > > > > > > I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need > qualification. > > > Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with > > to-be-designed > > > artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of > > things > > > conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are > > > usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly > > > knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). > > > > > > Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational > > paradigm > > > would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the > > dawning > > > realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). > > > Also, > > with > > > respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft > > > requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, > > > which > > will > > > be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. > > being > > > paid to get something built. > > > > > > Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate > > > functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable > > > establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless > > > you > > may > > > well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. > > > > > > Best, > > > Huw > > > > > > On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Henry, all, > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work > > >> in a software development company, and, observing a discussion > > >> between two developers who talk about features of the software that > > >> are not yet developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon > > >> me that, to > > possibly > > >> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since > > >> one alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name > > >> it. So, > > the > > >> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but > > which > > >> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin > > working > > >> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen > > >> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it > > >> takes > > time > > >> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" > > >> that > > you > > >> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the > > >> imagining, > > very > > >> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the > > >> salience of "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" > > >> may be timely > > here. > > >> > > >> > > >> Alfredo > > >> > > >> ________________________________ > > >> From: HENRY SHONERD > > >> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker > > >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > >> > > >> Mike, > > >> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might > > >> "...come > > up > > >> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". > > >> As you say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine > > >> is that I > > can > > >> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most > > >> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the > > >> ability > > of > > >> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed > > >> in > > time > > >> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" > > ("irrealis"). > > >> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on > > >> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most > > >> people, > > if > > >> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. > > Animals > > >> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It > > >> might > > be > > >> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) > > >> I > > would > > >> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as > > >> the spatial, with displacement. > > >> > > >> Henry > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Wed Oct 14 09:04:06 2015 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:04:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no>, Message-ID: <1444838646095.60751@iped.uio.no> Huw, thanks a lot! Your experiences is very valuable for what I am looking at now, really. I'll definitively keep you posted on what I get up to. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd Sent: 14 October 2015 17:50 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA Alfredo, Regarding "how the situated work taking place during a shift of (computational) paradigm would differ", generalising from my experience I usually see a breakdown in communication and an approach is taken in which the program is inched forward, perhaps akin to tacking to a coastline. What was a reasonable strategy for a quick solution transforms over time into an abuse of the language, such as 20 files consisting of nested if statements that are several hundred lines long used to parse text files. Depending upon the experience, common trigger scenarios might be: Object oriented programming. Inversion of control (using frameworks) Multithreaded programming. Functional programming But even when the language constructs are well known there can be disagreements concerning other basic representational and orientational constructs, such as what an event is, whether an input is interior or exterior to an encapsulation, whether value objects or identity objects are used, and whether the problem domain is actually articulated in the software. Regarding gesture, I would say that gestures index orientation mediated by conscious goals. So I would agree that gesture, rather than mere wording, helps to orient. But I would tend to disagree that gesture is 'foundational'. For me, orientation is king. It would be interesting to see if you make something else of it. Best, Huw On 14 October 2015 at 15:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Huw, > thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. The > software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained sense of > "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing paradigm. > Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them to be > able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being > designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just > (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also drawings, > gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there was > some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced makes > me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of > (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am > observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. > > Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported with > respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings attention > to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities (bodies). I > am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the > differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the work of > producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind of > situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend to > Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the > material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for > those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) that > both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift > involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to orienting > towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be > interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical > conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this > account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to > lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination > takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation alone, > it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the materials > offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of naming, > of using words. > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of > HENRY SHONERD > Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on > boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded naming? > I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated > movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be named. A > verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s > conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that > replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get > outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, > loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes when > operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst the > experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the > project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and > abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse > generally? That would provide nice praxis. > > Respectfully, > Henry > > > On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > > Alfredo, > > > > I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need qualification. > > Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with > to-be-designed > > artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of > things > > conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are > > usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly > > knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). > > > > Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational > paradigm > > would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the > dawning > > realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, > with > > respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft > > requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which > will > > be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. > being > > paid to get something built. > > > > Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate > > functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable > > establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you > may > > well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > >> Henry, all, > >> > >> > >> > >> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a > >> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two > >> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet > >> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to > possibly > >> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one > >> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, > the > >> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but > which > >> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin > working > >> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen > >> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes > time > >> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" that > you > >> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, > very > >> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience of > >> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely > here. > >> > >> > >> Alfredo > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: HENRY SHONERD > >> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker > >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > >> > >> Mike, > >> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come > up > >> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As you > >> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I > can > >> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most > >> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability > of > >> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in > time > >> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" > ("irrealis"). > >> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on > >> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most people, > if > >> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. > Animals > >> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might > be > >> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I > would > >> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as the > >> spatial, with displacement. > >> > >> Henry > >> > >> > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Oct 14 09:19:31 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:19:31 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <003b01d10694$6a058c50$3e10a4f0$@att.net> References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> <003b01d10694$6a058c50$3e10a4f0$@att.net> Message-ID: One from yesterday: the 'r' in a[r]fter. Though the written word clearly begins with an 'a', the 'r' sound seemed to dominate with the reading ending up with something like 'rifter'. So I seemed to have something like 'ah' -> 'r' -> 'rh'. Huw On 14 October 2015 at 16:24, Peg Griffin wrote: > Mike, do you recall the juxtaposed triangles we used when we were > analyzing Alejandro and Benny's reading with an adult? > Here's how I recall it: > Each figure had two incomplete equilateral triangles sharing a baseline, > one with the apex up and the other with the apex down. The whole came out > kind of like a diamond shape but, on the right side of the page, it was the > sides didn't meet -- leaving the future open. > The author, the teacher and the child put in what they could but where it > went no-one could know... > > Another tidbit for the stone soup of ideas: you wrote "a difference that > does not make a difference" -- briding form linguistics terminology we > might call it "allo-meanings" (see allophones as the model). > Peg > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike > cole > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:51 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > Alfredo > > Might it be that words are NEVER enough? That all comprehension of > another's words require imagination? Its just that sometimes the gap to be > filled falls within a kind of normative range that is a difference that > does NOT make a difference, while others require sufficient discontinuity > to require intentional/conscious effort to bridge in a *satisficing* way. > > mike > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:44 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > Huw, > > thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. > > The software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained > > sense of "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing > paradigm. > > Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them > > to be able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby > > being designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not > > just (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also > > drawings, gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, > > and there was some form of imagination going on. So the distinction > > you introduced makes me wonder how the situated work taking place > > during a shift of > > (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I > > am observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. > > > > Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported > > with respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings > > attention to objects (materials) and their relation to our > > sensitivities (bodies). I am thinking if this connection might be of > > help to understand the differences between the work that minor > > innovations involve and the work of producing major paradigm shifts. > > Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind of situated social interactions > > that we observe, we should (again) attend to Latour's discussion on > > inter-objectivity, and see how the material-historical arrangements in > > the setting set the conditions for those shifts to occur. At the level > > of interaction, I can imagine (!) that both going through a minor > > innovation and going through a major shift involve some movement from > > not being aware of a possibility to orienting towards that very > > possibility. Studying differences there would be interesting. But I > > guess that the key lies in the prior historical conditions for the > > innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this account, be a > > form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to lend > > themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination > > takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation > > alone, it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that > > the materials offer. And those possibilities, of course, include > possibilities of naming, of using words. > > > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of > > HENRY SHONERD > > Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > > > Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on > > boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded > naming? > > I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated > > movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be > > named. A verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do > > with Huw?s conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one > > end those that replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, > > those that ?get outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very > > nouny, Latinate, loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves > > important purposes when operating on the generalization and > > abstraction side of things, amongst the experts. But boundary objects > > (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the project members are > > strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and abstracting. Could > > gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse generally? That > would provide nice praxis. > > > > Respectfully, > > Henry > > > > > On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd > > wrote: > > > > > > Alfredo, > > > > > > I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need > qualification. > > > Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with > > to-be-designed > > > artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of > > things > > > conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are > > > usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly > > > knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). > > > > > > Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational > > paradigm > > > would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the > > dawning > > > realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). > > > Also, > > with > > > respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft > > > requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, > > > which > > will > > > be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. > > being > > > paid to get something built. > > > > > > Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate > > > functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable > > > establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless > > > you > > may > > > well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. > > > > > > Best, > > > Huw > > > > > > On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Henry, all, > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work > > >> in a software development company, and, observing a discussion > > >> between two developers who talk about features of the software that > > >> are not yet developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon > > >> me that, to > > possibly > > >> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since > > >> one alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name > > >> it. So, > > the > > >> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but > > which > > >> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin > > working > > >> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen > > >> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it > > >> takes > > time > > >> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" > > >> that > > you > > >> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the > > >> imagining, > > very > > >> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the > > >> salience of "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" > > >> may be timely > > here. > > >> > > >> > > >> Alfredo > > >> > > >> ________________________________ > > >> From: HENRY SHONERD > > >> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker > > >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > >> > > >> Mike, > > >> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might > > >> "...come > > up > > >> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". > > >> As you say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine > > >> is that I > > can > > >> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most > > >> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the > > >> ability > > of > > >> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed > > >> in > > time > > >> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" > > ("irrealis"). > > >> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on > > >> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most > > >> people, > > if > > >> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. > > Animals > > >> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It > > >> might > > be > > >> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) > > >> I > > would > > >> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as > > >> the spatial, with displacement. > > >> > > >> Henry > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Oct 14 09:55:18 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 09:55:18 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <1444838646095.60751@iped.uio.no> References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> <1444838646095.60751@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: I have been deeply engaged with the topic of boundary objects and notions of orientation. Here attached is a response. It is rather long and this is why it is sent as an attachment. I want to thank everyone for our shared voices. On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Huw, thanks a lot! Your experiences is very valuable for what I am looking > at now, really. I'll definitively keep you posted on what I get up to. > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Huw > Lloyd > Sent: 14 October 2015 17:50 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > Alfredo, > > Regarding "how the situated work taking place during a shift of > (computational) paradigm would differ", generalising from my experience I > usually see a breakdown in communication and an approach is taken in which > the program is inched forward, perhaps akin to tacking to a coastline. > > What was a reasonable strategy for a quick solution transforms over time > into an abuse of the language, such as 20 files consisting of nested if > statements that are several hundred lines long used to parse text files. > > Depending upon the experience, common trigger scenarios might be: > > Object oriented programming. > Inversion of control (using frameworks) > Multithreaded programming. > Functional programming > > But even when the language constructs are well known there can be > disagreements concerning other basic representational and orientational > constructs, such as what an event is, whether an input is interior or > exterior to an encapsulation, whether value objects or identity objects are > used, and whether the problem domain is actually articulated in the > software. > > Regarding gesture, I would say that gestures index orientation mediated by > conscious goals. So I would agree that gesture, rather than mere wording, > helps to orient. But I would tend to disagree that gesture is > 'foundational'. For me, orientation is king. It would be interesting to > see if you make something else of it. > > Best, > Huw > > > On 14 October 2015 at 15:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > Huw, > > thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. The > > software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained sense > of > > "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing paradigm. > > Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them to > be > > able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being > > designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just > > (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also > drawings, > > gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there was > > some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced > makes > > me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of > > (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am > > observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. > > > > Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported > with > > respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings > attention > > to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities (bodies). > I > > am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the > > differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the work > of > > producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind > of > > situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend to > > Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the > > material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for > > those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) > that > > both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift > > involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to orienting > > towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be > > interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical > > conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this > > account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to > > lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination > > takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation > alone, > > it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the > materials > > offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of > naming, > > of using words. > > > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of > > HENRY SHONERD > > Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > > > Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on > > boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded > naming? > > I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated > > movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be named. > A > > verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s > > conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that > > replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get > > outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, > > loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes > when > > operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst > the > > experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the > > project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and > > abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse > > generally? That would provide nice praxis. > > > > Respectfully, > > Henry > > > > > On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd > > wrote: > > > > > > Alfredo, > > > > > > I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need > qualification. > > > Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with > > to-be-designed > > > artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of > > things > > > conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are > > > usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly > > > knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). > > > > > > Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational > > paradigm > > > would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the > > dawning > > > realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, > > with > > > respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft > > > requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which > > will > > > be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. > > being > > > paid to get something built. > > > > > > Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate > > > functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable > > > establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you > > may > > > well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. > > > > > > Best, > > > Huw > > > > > > On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > > > > >> Henry, all, > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a > > >> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two > > >> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet > > >> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to > > possibly > > >> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one > > >> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, > > the > > >> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but > > which > > >> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin > > working > > >> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen > > >> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes > > time > > >> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" > that > > you > > >> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, > > very > > >> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience > of > > >> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely > > here. > > >> > > >> > > >> Alfredo > > >> > > >> ________________________________ > > >> From: HENRY SHONERD > > >> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker > > >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > >> > > >> Mike, > > >> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come > > up > > >> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As > you > > >> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I > > can > > >> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most > > >> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability > > of > > >> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in > > time > > >> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" > > ("irrealis"). > > >> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on > > >> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most > people, > > if > > >> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. > > Animals > > >> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might > > be > > >> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I > > would > > >> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as > the > > >> spatial, with displacement. > > >> > > >> Henry > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OCTOBER 10 2015 PURSS LARRY THE CHARACTER OF BOUNDARY OBJECTS 1.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 7532 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151014/ab88f609/attachment.bin From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Oct 14 10:09:10 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:09:10 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <1444838646095.60751@iped.uio.no> References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> <1444838646095.60751@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Huw, Does this work for you?: Gesture as basically acting. Doing. Orientation as basically thinking. Construal. Gesture and orientation are construed as being on a continuum. At the same time: Gesture is a proper subset of orientation. Alternativeky, orientation is ground for gesture. Langacker construes grammar as symbolic in nature, with phonological space a subset of semantic space. Keeping in mind that semantic space, meaning, is contextual, both spatially and temporally. Gesture is prototypically material, indexical. Orientation is prototypically cognitive and affective. Yet there is no non-arbitrary division (dichotomy) between gesture and orientation. I think I am in way over my head regarding set theory, but do any of your ?trigger scenarios? fall into a trap of dichotomization, where the participants in a project push for a checklist of properties to determine what an object actually is, rather than admit to fuzziness of categories? The work of Rosch comes to mind. I am also thinking of scientific and practical concepts and an article by Peter Smagorinsky about those ideas. Tentatively, Henry P.S. A vigorous nod to Peg and Huw regarding ?allos?, as in allophones. A great example of the the relationships between the concrete (phonetic realization of allophones) and the abstract (the phonemic unit that ?represents? the ?bundle? of allophones). The -etic and the -emic. Again, a continuum, rather than a simple dichotomy. I want to recognize that there are some lingusts who do not ascribe to phonemes at all, think that such an abstract representation is not required to model language, especially as it applies to the production and comprehension of language with computers. Again, over my head. > On Oct 14, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > Huw, thanks a lot! Your experiences is very valuable for what I am looking at now, really. I'll definitively keep you posted on what I get up to. > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd > Sent: 14 October 2015 17:50 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > Alfredo, > > Regarding "how the situated work taking place during a shift of > (computational) paradigm would differ", generalising from my experience I > usually see a breakdown in communication and an approach is taken in which > the program is inched forward, perhaps akin to tacking to a coastline. > > What was a reasonable strategy for a quick solution transforms over time > into an abuse of the language, such as 20 files consisting of nested if > statements that are several hundred lines long used to parse text files. > > Depending upon the experience, common trigger scenarios might be: > > Object oriented programming. > Inversion of control (using frameworks) > Multithreaded programming. > Functional programming > > But even when the language constructs are well known there can be > disagreements concerning other basic representational and orientational > constructs, such as what an event is, whether an input is interior or > exterior to an encapsulation, whether value objects or identity objects are > used, and whether the problem domain is actually articulated in the > software. > > Regarding gesture, I would say that gestures index orientation mediated by > conscious goals. So I would agree that gesture, rather than mere wording, > helps to orient. But I would tend to disagree that gesture is > 'foundational'. For me, orientation is king. It would be interesting to > see if you make something else of it. > > Best, > Huw > > > On 14 October 2015 at 15:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > >> Huw, >> thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. The >> software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained sense of >> "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing paradigm. >> Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them to be >> able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being >> designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just >> (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also drawings, >> gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there was >> some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced makes >> me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of >> (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am >> observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. >> >> Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported with >> respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings attention >> to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities (bodies). I >> am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the >> differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the work of >> producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind of >> situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend to >> Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the >> material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for >> those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) that >> both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift >> involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to orienting >> towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be >> interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical >> conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this >> account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to >> lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination >> takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation alone, >> it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the materials >> offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of naming, >> of using words. >> >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of >> HENRY SHONERD >> Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >> >> Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on >> boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded naming? >> I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated >> movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be named. A >> verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s >> conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that >> replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get >> outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, >> loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes when >> operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst the >> experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the >> project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and >> abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse >> generally? That would provide nice praxis. >> >> Respectfully, >> Henry >> >>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >>> >>> Alfredo, >>> >>> I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need qualification. >>> Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with >> to-be-designed >>> artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of >> things >>> conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are >>> usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly >>> knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). >>> >>> Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational >> paradigm >>> would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the >> dawning >>> realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, >> with >>> respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft >>> requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which >> will >>> be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. >> being >>> paid to get something built. >>> >>> Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate >>> functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable >>> establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you >> may >>> well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >>> >>>> Henry, all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a >>>> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two >>>> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet >>>> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to >> possibly >>>> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one >>>> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, >> the >>>> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but >> which >>>> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin >> working >>>> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen >>>> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes >> time >>>> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" that >> you >>>> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, >> very >>>> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience of >>>> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely >> here. >>>> >>>> >>>> Alfredo >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: HENRY SHONERD >>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker >>>> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>>> >>>> Mike, >>>> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come >> up >>>> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As you >>>> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I >> can >>>> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most >>>> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability >> of >>>> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in >> time >>>> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" >> ("irrealis"). >>>> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on >>>> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most people, >> if >>>> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. >> Animals >>>> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might >> be >>>> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I >> would >>>> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as the >>>> spatial, with displacement. >>>> >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Oct 14 11:06:00 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 19:06:00 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> <1444838646095.60751@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Hi Henry, I subscribe to a rather canonical interpretation of activity theory to which all of which we have been discussing fits. You're correct in stating that there is no non-arbitrary division, but then this applies to any phenomena when viewed from a genetic or dialectic approach. What we can look to, however, is that which originates and that which comes to govern. Best, Huw On 14 October 2015 at 18:09, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Huw, > Does this work for you?: > Gesture as basically acting. Doing. > Orientation as basically thinking. Construal. > Gesture and orientation are construed as being on a continuum. > At the same time: Gesture is a proper subset of orientation. > Alternativeky, orientation is ground for gesture. > Langacker construes grammar as symbolic in nature, with phonological space > a subset of semantic space. Keeping in mind that semantic space, meaning, > is contextual, both spatially and temporally. Gesture is prototypically > material, indexical. Orientation is prototypically cognitive and affective. > Yet there is no non-arbitrary division (dichotomy) between gesture and > orientation. > > I think I am in way over my head regarding set theory, but do any of your > ?trigger scenarios? fall into a trap of dichotomization, where the > participants in a project push for a checklist of properties to determine > what an object actually is, rather than admit to fuzziness of categories? > The work of Rosch comes to mind. I am also thinking of scientific and > practical concepts and an article by Peter Smagorinsky about those ideas. > > Tentatively, > Henry > > P.S. A vigorous nod to Peg and Huw regarding ?allos?, as in allophones. A > great example of the the relationships between the concrete (phonetic > realization of allophones) and the abstract (the phonemic unit that > ?represents? the ?bundle? of allophones). The -etic and the -emic. Again, a > continuum, rather than a simple dichotomy. I want to recognize that there > are some lingusts who do not ascribe to phonemes at all, think that such an > abstract representation is not required to model language, especially as it > applies to the production and comprehension of language with computers. > Again, over my head. > > > > > On Oct 14, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > > Huw, thanks a lot! Your experiences is very valuable for what I am > looking at now, really. I'll definitively keep you posted on what I get up > to. > > > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Huw > Lloyd > > Sent: 14 October 2015 17:50 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > > > Alfredo, > > > > Regarding "how the situated work taking place during a shift of > > (computational) paradigm would differ", generalising from my experience I > > usually see a breakdown in communication and an approach is taken in > which > > the program is inched forward, perhaps akin to tacking to a coastline. > > > > What was a reasonable strategy for a quick solution transforms over time > > into an abuse of the language, such as 20 files consisting of nested if > > statements that are several hundred lines long used to parse text files. > > > > Depending upon the experience, common trigger scenarios might be: > > > > Object oriented programming. > > Inversion of control (using frameworks) > > Multithreaded programming. > > Functional programming > > > > But even when the language constructs are well known there can be > > disagreements concerning other basic representational and orientational > > constructs, such as what an event is, whether an input is interior or > > exterior to an encapsulation, whether value objects or identity objects > are > > used, and whether the problem domain is actually articulated in the > > software. > > > > Regarding gesture, I would say that gestures index orientation mediated > by > > conscious goals. So I would agree that gesture, rather than mere > wording, > > helps to orient. But I would tend to disagree that gesture is > > 'foundational'. For me, orientation is king. It would be interesting to > > see if you make something else of it. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > On 14 October 2015 at 15:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > >> Huw, > >> thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. The > >> software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained > sense of > >> "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing > paradigm. > >> Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them > to be > >> able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being > >> designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just > >> (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also > drawings, > >> gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there was > >> some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced > makes > >> me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of > >> (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am > >> observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. > >> > >> Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported > with > >> respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings > attention > >> to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities > (bodies). I > >> am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the > >> differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the > work of > >> producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind > of > >> situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend > to > >> Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the > >> material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for > >> those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) > that > >> both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift > >> involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to orienting > >> towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be > >> interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical > >> conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this > >> account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need > to > >> lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination > >> takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation > alone, > >> it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the > materials > >> offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of > naming, > >> of using words. > >> > >> Alfredo > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> on behalf of > >> HENRY SHONERD > >> Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > >> > >> Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on > >> boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded > naming? > >> I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated > >> movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be > named. A > >> verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s > >> conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that > >> replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get > >> outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, > >> loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes > when > >> operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst > the > >> experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume > the > >> project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and > >> abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse > >> generally? That would provide nice praxis. > >> > >> Respectfully, > >> Henry > >> > >>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Alfredo, > >>> > >>> I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need > qualification. > >>> Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with > >> to-be-designed > >>> artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of > >> things > >>> conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are > >>> usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly > >>> knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). > >>> > >>> Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational > >> paradigm > >>> would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the > >> dawning > >>> realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, > >> with > >>> respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft > >>> requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which > >> will > >>> be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. > >> being > >>> paid to get something built. > >>> > >>> Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate > >>> functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable > >>> establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you > >> may > >>> well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> Huw > >>> > >>> On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Henry, all, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a > >>>> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two > >>>> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet > >>>> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to > >> possibly > >>>> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one > >>>> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, > >> the > >>>> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but > >> which > >>>> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin > >> working > >>>> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen > >>>> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes > >> time > >>>> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" > that > >> you > >>>> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, > >> very > >>>> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience > of > >>>> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely > >> here. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Alfredo > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> From: HENRY SHONERD > >>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker > >>>> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > >>>> > >>>> Mike, > >>>> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come > >> up > >>>> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As > you > >>>> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I > >> can > >>>> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most > >>>> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability > >> of > >>>> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in > >> time > >>>> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" > >> ("irrealis"). > >>>> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on > >>>> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most > people, > >> if > >>>> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. > >> Animals > >>>> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might > >> be > >>>> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I > >> would > >>>> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as > the > >>>> spatial, with displacement. > >>>> > >>>> Henry > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Wed Oct 14 11:18:55 2015 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:18:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> <1444838646095.60751@iped.uio.no>, Message-ID: <1444846734442.42602@iped.uio.no> If I were to set gesture and orientation along a continuum, as Henry suggests, and if I wanted to do so without falling back into a dichotomy, I would bring Ryle and his warnings on the concept of mind, and I would remark that orientation is an achievement, not a process. Orienting, as a process verb, is something that takes movement (and therefore time) to get achieved. Thus, in every occasion that someone orients to something, that orienting exists in and as a gesture, a gaze, a word, or a variety of those together. Before you do orient, there is not yet an orientation. Perhaps a disposition to do so, and one which is not inside you but with goes along with your circumstances. So, a way to dissolve the dichotomy that is implied saying that orientation is cognitive and gesture is material (as if cognition was not material and gesture not cognitive) may be to admit that orienting (thinking, cognizing) takes gesture, and other material things, to be achieved. It is in this sense that I think that notions of movement, such as Dewey's "an experience," are useful to think of what is foundational about thinking. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD Sent: 14 October 2015 19:09 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA Huw, Does this work for you?: Gesture as basically acting. Doing. Orientation as basically thinking. Construal. Gesture and orientation are construed as being on a continuum. At the same time: Gesture is a proper subset of orientation. Alternativeky, orientation is ground for gesture. Langacker construes grammar as symbolic in nature, with phonological space a subset of semantic space. Keeping in mind that semantic space, meaning, is contextual, both spatially and temporally. Gesture is prototypically material, indexical. Orientation is prototypically cognitive and affective. Yet there is no non-arbitrary division (dichotomy) between gesture and orientation. I think I am in way over my head regarding set theory, but do any of your ?trigger scenarios? fall into a trap of dichotomization, where the participants in a project push for a checklist of properties to determine what an object actually is, rather than admit to fuzziness of categories? The work of Rosch comes to mind. I am also thinking of scientific and practical concepts and an article by Peter Smagorinsky about those ideas. Tentatively, Henry P.S. A vigorous nod to Peg and Huw regarding ?allos?, as in allophones. A great example of the the relationships between the concrete (phonetic realization of allophones) and the abstract (the phonemic unit that ?represents? the ?bundle? of allophones). The -etic and the -emic. Again, a continuum, rather than a simple dichotomy. I want to recognize that there are some lingusts who do not ascribe to phonemes at all, think that such an abstract representation is not required to model language, especially as it applies to the production and comprehension of language with computers. Again, over my head. > On Oct 14, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > Huw, thanks a lot! Your experiences is very valuable for what I am looking at now, really. I'll definitively keep you posted on what I get up to. > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd > Sent: 14 October 2015 17:50 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > Alfredo, > > Regarding "how the situated work taking place during a shift of > (computational) paradigm would differ", generalising from my experience I > usually see a breakdown in communication and an approach is taken in which > the program is inched forward, perhaps akin to tacking to a coastline. > > What was a reasonable strategy for a quick solution transforms over time > into an abuse of the language, such as 20 files consisting of nested if > statements that are several hundred lines long used to parse text files. > > Depending upon the experience, common trigger scenarios might be: > > Object oriented programming. > Inversion of control (using frameworks) > Multithreaded programming. > Functional programming > > But even when the language constructs are well known there can be > disagreements concerning other basic representational and orientational > constructs, such as what an event is, whether an input is interior or > exterior to an encapsulation, whether value objects or identity objects are > used, and whether the problem domain is actually articulated in the > software. > > Regarding gesture, I would say that gestures index orientation mediated by > conscious goals. So I would agree that gesture, rather than mere wording, > helps to orient. But I would tend to disagree that gesture is > 'foundational'. For me, orientation is king. It would be interesting to > see if you make something else of it. > > Best, > Huw > > > On 14 October 2015 at 15:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > >> Huw, >> thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. The >> software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained sense of >> "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing paradigm. >> Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them to be >> able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being >> designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just >> (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also drawings, >> gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there was >> some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced makes >> me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of >> (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am >> observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. >> >> Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported with >> respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings attention >> to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities (bodies). I >> am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the >> differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the work of >> producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind of >> situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend to >> Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the >> material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for >> those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) that >> both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift >> involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to orienting >> towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be >> interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical >> conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this >> account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to >> lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination >> takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation alone, >> it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the materials >> offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of naming, >> of using words. >> >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of >> HENRY SHONERD >> Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >> >> Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on >> boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded naming? >> I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated >> movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be named. A >> verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s >> conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that >> replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get >> outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, >> loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes when >> operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst the >> experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the >> project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and >> abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse >> generally? That would provide nice praxis. >> >> Respectfully, >> Henry >> >>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >>> >>> Alfredo, >>> >>> I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need qualification. >>> Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with >> to-be-designed >>> artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of >> things >>> conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are >>> usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly >>> knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). >>> >>> Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational >> paradigm >>> would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the >> dawning >>> realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, >> with >>> respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft >>> requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which >> will >>> be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. >> being >>> paid to get something built. >>> >>> Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate >>> functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable >>> establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you >> may >>> well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >>> >>>> Henry, all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a >>>> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two >>>> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet >>>> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to >> possibly >>>> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one >>>> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, >> the >>>> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but >> which >>>> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin >> working >>>> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen >>>> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes >> time >>>> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" that >> you >>>> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, >> very >>>> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience of >>>> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely >> here. >>>> >>>> >>>> Alfredo >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: HENRY SHONERD >>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker >>>> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>>> >>>> Mike, >>>> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come >> up >>>> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As you >>>> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I >> can >>>> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most >>>> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability >> of >>>> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in >> time >>>> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" >> ("irrealis"). >>>> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on >>>> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most people, >> if >>>> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. >> Animals >>>> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might >> be >>>> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I >> would >>>> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as the >>>> spatial, with displacement. >>>> >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> > From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Oct 14 16:14:05 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:14:05 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> <1444838646095.60751@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <50D800A5-9C7D-4EE3-A2D2-73E78151D886@gmail.com> Thank you, Huw! That is very helpful. Henry > On Oct 14, 2015, at 12:06 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > Hi Henry, > > I subscribe to a rather canonical interpretation of activity theory to > which all of which we have been discussing fits. You're correct in stating > that there is no non-arbitrary division, but then this applies to any > phenomena when viewed from a genetic or dialectic approach. What we can > look to, however, is that which originates and that which comes to govern. > > Best, > Huw > > On 14 October 2015 at 18:09, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Huw, >> Does this work for you?: >> Gesture as basically acting. Doing. >> Orientation as basically thinking. Construal. >> Gesture and orientation are construed as being on a continuum. >> At the same time: Gesture is a proper subset of orientation. >> Alternativeky, orientation is ground for gesture. >> Langacker construes grammar as symbolic in nature, with phonological space >> a subset of semantic space. Keeping in mind that semantic space, meaning, >> is contextual, both spatially and temporally. Gesture is prototypically >> material, indexical. Orientation is prototypically cognitive and affective. >> Yet there is no non-arbitrary division (dichotomy) between gesture and >> orientation. >> >> I think I am in way over my head regarding set theory, but do any of your >> ?trigger scenarios? fall into a trap of dichotomization, where the >> participants in a project push for a checklist of properties to determine >> what an object actually is, rather than admit to fuzziness of categories? >> The work of Rosch comes to mind. I am also thinking of scientific and >> practical concepts and an article by Peter Smagorinsky about those ideas. >> >> Tentatively, >> Henry >> >> P.S. A vigorous nod to Peg and Huw regarding ?allos?, as in allophones. A >> great example of the the relationships between the concrete (phonetic >> realization of allophones) and the abstract (the phonemic unit that >> ?represents? the ?bundle? of allophones). The -etic and the -emic. Again, a >> continuum, rather than a simple dichotomy. I want to recognize that there >> are some lingusts who do not ascribe to phonemes at all, think that such an >> abstract representation is not required to model language, especially as it >> applies to the production and comprehension of language with computers. >> Again, over my head. >> >> >> >>> On Oct 14, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >>> >>> Huw, thanks a lot! Your experiences is very valuable for what I am >> looking at now, really. I'll definitively keep you posted on what I get up >> to. >>> >>> Alfredo >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Huw >> Lloyd >>> Sent: 14 October 2015 17:50 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>> >>> Alfredo, >>> >>> Regarding "how the situated work taking place during a shift of >>> (computational) paradigm would differ", generalising from my experience I >>> usually see a breakdown in communication and an approach is taken in >> which >>> the program is inched forward, perhaps akin to tacking to a coastline. >>> >>> What was a reasonable strategy for a quick solution transforms over time >>> into an abuse of the language, such as 20 files consisting of nested if >>> statements that are several hundred lines long used to parse text files. >>> >>> Depending upon the experience, common trigger scenarios might be: >>> >>> Object oriented programming. >>> Inversion of control (using frameworks) >>> Multithreaded programming. >>> Functional programming >>> >>> But even when the language constructs are well known there can be >>> disagreements concerning other basic representational and orientational >>> constructs, such as what an event is, whether an input is interior or >>> exterior to an encapsulation, whether value objects or identity objects >> are >>> used, and whether the problem domain is actually articulated in the >>> software. >>> >>> Regarding gesture, I would say that gestures index orientation mediated >> by >>> conscious goals. So I would agree that gesture, rather than mere >> wording, >>> helps to orient. But I would tend to disagree that gesture is >>> 'foundational'. For me, orientation is king. It would be interesting to >>> see if you make something else of it. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> >>> On 14 October 2015 at 15:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >>> >>>> Huw, >>>> thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. The >>>> software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained >> sense of >>>> "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing >> paradigm. >>>> Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them >> to be >>>> able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being >>>> designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just >>>> (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also >> drawings, >>>> gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there was >>>> some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced >> makes >>>> me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of >>>> (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am >>>> observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. >>>> >>>> Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported >> with >>>> respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings >> attention >>>> to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities >> (bodies). I >>>> am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the >>>> differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the >> work of >>>> producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind >> of >>>> situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend >> to >>>> Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the >>>> material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for >>>> those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) >> that >>>> both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift >>>> involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to orienting >>>> towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be >>>> interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical >>>> conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this >>>> account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need >> to >>>> lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination >>>> takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation >> alone, >>>> it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the >> materials >>>> offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of >> naming, >>>> of using words. >>>> >>>> Alfredo >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> on behalf of >>>> HENRY SHONERD >>>> Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>>> >>>> Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on >>>> boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded >> naming? >>>> I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated >>>> movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be >> named. A >>>> verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s >>>> conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that >>>> replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get >>>> outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, >>>> loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes >> when >>>> operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst >> the >>>> experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume >> the >>>> project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and >>>> abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse >>>> generally? That would provide nice praxis. >>>> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Henry >>>> >>>>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo, >>>>> >>>>> I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need >> qualification. >>>>> Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with >>>> to-be-designed >>>>> artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of >>>> things >>>>> conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are >>>>> usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly >>>>> knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). >>>>> >>>>> Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational >>>> paradigm >>>>> would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the >>>> dawning >>>>> realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, >>>> with >>>>> respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft >>>>> requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which >>>> will >>>>> be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. >>>> being >>>>> paid to get something built. >>>>> >>>>> Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate >>>>> functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable >>>>> establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you >>>> may >>>>> well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Henry, all, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a >>>>>> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two >>>>>> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet >>>>>> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to >>>> possibly >>>>>> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one >>>>>> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, >>>> the >>>>>> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but >>>> which >>>>>> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin >>>> working >>>>>> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen >>>>>> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes >>>> time >>>>>> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" >> that >>>> you >>>>>> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, >>>> very >>>>>> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience >> of >>>>>> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely >>>> here. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> From: HENRY SHONERD >>>>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike, >>>>>> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come >>>> up >>>>>> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As >> you >>>>>> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I >>>> can >>>>>> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most >>>>>> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability >>>> of >>>>>> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in >>>> time >>>>>> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" >>>> ("irrealis"). >>>>>> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on >>>>>> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most >> people, >>>> if >>>>>> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. >>>> Animals >>>>>> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might >>>> be >>>>>> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I >>>> would >>>>>> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as >> the >>>>>> spatial, with displacement. >>>>>> >>>>>> Henry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Oct 14 16:16:50 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:16:50 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> <1444838646095.60751@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Huw, Thank you! That is very helpful. Little by little. Henry > On Oct 14, 2015, at 12:06 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > Hi Henry, > > I subscribe to a rather canonical interpretation of activity theory to > which all of which we have been discussing fits. You're correct in stating > that there is no non-arbitrary division, but then this applies to any > phenomena when viewed from a genetic or dialectic approach. What we can > look to, however, is that which originates and that which comes to govern. > > Best, > Huw > > On 14 October 2015 at 18:09, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Huw, >> Does this work for you?: >> Gesture as basically acting. Doing. >> Orientation as basically thinking. Construal. >> Gesture and orientation are construed as being on a continuum. >> At the same time: Gesture is a proper subset of orientation. >> Alternativeky, orientation is ground for gesture. >> Langacker construes grammar as symbolic in nature, with phonological space >> a subset of semantic space. Keeping in mind that semantic space, meaning, >> is contextual, both spatially and temporally. Gesture is prototypically >> material, indexical. Orientation is prototypically cognitive and affective. >> Yet there is no non-arbitrary division (dichotomy) between gesture and >> orientation. >> >> I think I am in way over my head regarding set theory, but do any of your >> ?trigger scenarios? fall into a trap of dichotomization, where the >> participants in a project push for a checklist of properties to determine >> what an object actually is, rather than admit to fuzziness of categories? >> The work of Rosch comes to mind. I am also thinking of scientific and >> practical concepts and an article by Peter Smagorinsky about those ideas. >> >> Tentatively, >> Henry >> >> P.S. A vigorous nod to Peg and Huw regarding ?allos?, as in allophones. A >> great example of the the relationships between the concrete (phonetic >> realization of allophones) and the abstract (the phonemic unit that >> ?represents? the ?bundle? of allophones). The -etic and the -emic. Again, a >> continuum, rather than a simple dichotomy. I want to recognize that there >> are some lingusts who do not ascribe to phonemes at all, think that such an >> abstract representation is not required to model language, especially as it >> applies to the production and comprehension of language with computers. >> Again, over my head. >> >> >> >>> On Oct 14, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >>> >>> Huw, thanks a lot! Your experiences is very valuable for what I am >> looking at now, really. I'll definitively keep you posted on what I get up >> to. >>> >>> Alfredo >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Huw >> Lloyd >>> Sent: 14 October 2015 17:50 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>> >>> Alfredo, >>> >>> Regarding "how the situated work taking place during a shift of >>> (computational) paradigm would differ", generalising from my experience I >>> usually see a breakdown in communication and an approach is taken in >> which >>> the program is inched forward, perhaps akin to tacking to a coastline. >>> >>> What was a reasonable strategy for a quick solution transforms over time >>> into an abuse of the language, such as 20 files consisting of nested if >>> statements that are several hundred lines long used to parse text files. >>> >>> Depending upon the experience, common trigger scenarios might be: >>> >>> Object oriented programming. >>> Inversion of control (using frameworks) >>> Multithreaded programming. >>> Functional programming >>> >>> But even when the language constructs are well known there can be >>> disagreements concerning other basic representational and orientational >>> constructs, such as what an event is, whether an input is interior or >>> exterior to an encapsulation, whether value objects or identity objects >> are >>> used, and whether the problem domain is actually articulated in the >>> software. >>> >>> Regarding gesture, I would say that gestures index orientation mediated >> by >>> conscious goals. So I would agree that gesture, rather than mere >> wording, >>> helps to orient. But I would tend to disagree that gesture is >>> 'foundational'. For me, orientation is king. It would be interesting to >>> see if you make something else of it. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> >>> On 14 October 2015 at 15:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >>> >>>> Huw, >>>> thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. The >>>> software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained >> sense of >>>> "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing >> paradigm. >>>> Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them >> to be >>>> able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being >>>> designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just >>>> (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also >> drawings, >>>> gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there was >>>> some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced >> makes >>>> me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of >>>> (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am >>>> observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. >>>> >>>> Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported >> with >>>> respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings >> attention >>>> to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities >> (bodies). I >>>> am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the >>>> differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the >> work of >>>> producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind >> of >>>> situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend >> to >>>> Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the >>>> material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for >>>> those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) >> that >>>> both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift >>>> involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to orienting >>>> towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be >>>> interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical >>>> conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this >>>> account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need >> to >>>> lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination >>>> takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation >> alone, >>>> it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the >> materials >>>> offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of >> naming, >>>> of using words. >>>> >>>> Alfredo >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> on behalf of >>>> HENRY SHONERD >>>> Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>>> >>>> Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on >>>> boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded >> naming? >>>> I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated >>>> movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be >> named. A >>>> verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s >>>> conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that >>>> replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get >>>> outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, >>>> loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes >> when >>>> operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst >> the >>>> experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume >> the >>>> project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and >>>> abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse >>>> generally? That would provide nice praxis. >>>> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Henry >>>> >>>>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo, >>>>> >>>>> I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need >> qualification. >>>>> Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with >>>> to-be-designed >>>>> artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of >>>> things >>>>> conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are >>>>> usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly >>>>> knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). >>>>> >>>>> Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational >>>> paradigm >>>>> would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the >>>> dawning >>>>> realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, >>>> with >>>>> respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft >>>>> requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which >>>> will >>>>> be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. >>>> being >>>>> paid to get something built. >>>>> >>>>> Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate >>>>> functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable >>>>> establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you >>>> may >>>>> well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Henry, all, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a >>>>>> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two >>>>>> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet >>>>>> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to >>>> possibly >>>>>> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one >>>>>> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, >>>> the >>>>>> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but >>>> which >>>>>> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin >>>> working >>>>>> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen >>>>>> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes >>>> time >>>>>> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" >> that >>>> you >>>>>> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, >>>> very >>>>>> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience >> of >>>>>> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely >>>> here. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> From: HENRY SHONERD >>>>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike, >>>>>> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come >>>> up >>>>>> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As >> you >>>>>> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I >>>> can >>>>>> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most >>>>>> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability >>>> of >>>>>> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in >>>> time >>>>>> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" >>>> ("irrealis"). >>>>>> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on >>>>>> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most >> people, >>>> if >>>>>> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. >>>> Animals >>>>>> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might >>>> be >>>>>> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I >>>> would >>>>>> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as >> the >>>>>> spatial, with displacement. >>>>>> >>>>>> Henry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 14 17:07:34 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:07:34 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> <003b01d10694$6a058c50$3e10a4f0$@att.net> Message-ID: Peg et al -- Here is a set of representations using mediational triangles that underpin the method we called "question asking reading." The full, initial, (never published) text on which this is based can be found at http://lchc.ucsd.edu/People/NEWTECHN.pdf The first triangle represents the desired endpoint of the reading pedagogy The second two triangles show how the child's entering, fragmentary, understanding is juxtaposed with the adults mature understanding-- the first as simple juxtaposition,the second with overlap arising from instructional dialogue which reduces the gap between existing and desired end points. The third puts time/dynamics into this representation and indicates how all reading comprehension involves the bridging of the gap between the "mediated" and "direct" routes. Directly relevant to questions of displacement, gap filling, and imagination, although we used none of those terms at the time. Perhaps you can fill in, Peg, if mike On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:49 AM, mike cole > wrote: > That is a very useful reminder/suggestion, peg. I will look for the figure > and post it, perhaps with a little text for con-text. > > thanks! > mike > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:24 AM, Peg Griffin > wrote: > >> Mike, do you recall the juxtaposed triangles we used when we were >> analyzing Alejandro and Benny's reading with an adult? >> Here's how I recall it: >> Each figure had two incomplete equilateral triangles sharing a baseline, >> one with the apex up and the other with the apex down. The whole came out >> kind of like a diamond shape but, on the right side of the page, it was the >> sides didn't meet -- leaving the future open. >> The author, the teacher and the child put in what they could but where it >> went no-one could know... >> >> Another tidbit for the stone soup of ideas: you wrote "a difference that >> does not make a difference" -- briding form linguistics terminology we >> might call it "allo-meanings" (see allophones as the model). >> Peg >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin >> = >> att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu >> ] On Behalf Of >> mike cole >> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:51 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >> >> Alfredo >> >> Might it be that words are NEVER enough? That all comprehension of >> another's words require imagination? Its just that sometimes the gap to be >> filled falls within a kind of normative range that is a difference that >> does NOT make a difference, while others require sufficient discontinuity >> to require intentional/conscious effort to bridge in a *satisficing* way. >> >> mike >> >> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:44 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > >> wrote: >> >> > Huw, >> > thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. >> > The software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained >> > sense of "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of >> computing paradigm. >> > Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them >> > to be able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby >> > being designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not >> > just (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also >> > drawings, gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, >> > and there was some form of imagination going on. So the distinction >> > you introduced makes me wonder how the situated work taking place >> > during a shift of >> > (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I >> > am observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. >> > >> > Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported >> > with respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings >> > attention to objects (materials) and their relation to our >> > sensitivities (bodies). I am thinking if this connection might be of >> > help to understand the differences between the work that minor >> > innovations involve and the work of producing major paradigm shifts. >> > Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind of situated social interactions >> > that we observe, we should (again) attend to Latour's discussion on >> > inter-objectivity, and see how the material-historical arrangements in >> > the setting set the conditions for those shifts to occur. At the level >> > of interaction, I can imagine (!) that both going through a minor >> > innovation and going through a major shift involve some movement from >> > not being aware of a possibility to orienting towards that very >> > possibility. Studying differences there would be interesting. But I >> > guess that the key lies in the prior historical conditions for the >> > innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this account, be a >> > form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to lend >> > themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination >> > takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation >> > alone, it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that >> > the materials offer. And those possibilities, of course, include >> possibilities of naming, of using words. >> > >> > Alfredo >> > ________________________________________ >> > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> > > > on >> behalf of >> > HENRY SHONERD > > >> > Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 >> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >> > >> > Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on >> > boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded >> naming? >> > I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated >> > movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be >> > named. A verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do >> > with Huw?s conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one >> > end those that replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, >> > those that ?get outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very >> > nouny, Latinate, loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves >> > important purposes when operating on the generalization and >> > abstraction side of things, amongst the experts. But boundary objects >> > (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the project members are >> > strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and abstracting. Could >> > gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse generally? That >> would provide nice praxis. >> > >> > Respectfully, >> > Henry >> > >> > > On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd > > >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > Alfredo, >> > > >> > > I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need >> qualification. >> > > Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with >> > to-be-designed >> > > artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of >> > things >> > > conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are >> > > usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly >> > > knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). >> > > >> > > Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational >> > paradigm >> > > would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the >> > dawning >> > > realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). >> > > Also, >> > with >> > > respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft >> > > requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, >> > > which >> > will >> > > be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. >> > being >> > > paid to get something built. >> > > >> > > Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate >> > > functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable >> > > establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless >> > > you >> > may >> > > well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. >> > > >> > > Best, >> > > Huw >> > > >> > > On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> > > > > >> > wrote: >> > > >> > >> Henry, all, >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work >> > >> in a software development company, and, observing a discussion >> > >> between two developers who talk about features of the software that >> > >> are not yet developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon >> > >> me that, to >> > possibly >> > >> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since >> > >> one alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name >> > >> it. So, >> > the >> > >> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but >> > which >> > >> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin >> > working >> > >> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen >> > >> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it >> > >> takes >> > time >> > >> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" >> > >> that >> > you >> > >> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the >> > >> imagining, >> > very >> > >> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the >> > >> salience of "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" >> > >> may be timely >> > here. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Alfredo >> > >> >> > >> ________________________________ >> > >> From: HENRY SHONERD > > >> > >> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 >> > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > >> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker >> > >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >> > >> >> > >> Mike, >> > >> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might >> > >> "...come >> > up >> > >> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". >> > >> As you say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine >> > >> is that I >> > can >> > >> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most >> > >> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the >> > >> ability >> > of >> > >> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed >> > >> in >> > time >> > >> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" >> > ("irrealis"). >> > >> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on >> > >> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most >> > >> people, >> > if >> > >> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. >> > Animals >> > >> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It >> > >> might >> > be >> > >> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) >> > >> I >> > would >> > >> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as >> > >> the spatial, with displacement. >> > >> >> > >> Henry >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >> >> > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mcatriangles.doc Type: application/msword Size: 183808 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151014/6d35e522/attachment.doc From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Oct 14 17:43:36 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:43:36 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <1444846734442.42602@iped.uio.no> References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> <1444838646095.60751@iped.uio.no> <1444846734442.42602@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <86440C47-F5A4-4B36-8FAC-A9D4EA3255F8@gmail.com> Alfredo, I am messing up my emails! Darn it!! Anyway, thank you so much for moving the thing/process analysis along. It sharpens my own thinking. In the same direction: ?orientation" is a noun, but ?orient" a verb; ?cognition" a noun, ?cognize" a verb. Interestingly, ?gesture" can be either a noun or a verb, so the use of ?gesture? in your excellent article, for me, is particularly felicitous: Cognitive Grammar (Langacker) takes these ?material? objects (words as they are spelled or spoken) to be ways of evoking different construals of the same context, again keeping in mind the spatial and temporal complexity of any context. ?Gesture", for me, evokes both a noun and a verb. It also evokes signed language, full blown language, capable of great nuance, as cognitive as you can get. Can you imagine your article if the museum people had all been Deaf? Where would gesture leave off and cannonical symbolizing begin? On Dewey, Larry P. has posted something that moves this (macro)thread along. I am in the middle of reading it. Henry > On Oct 14, 2015, at 12:18 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > If I were to set gesture and orientation along a continuum, as Henry suggests, and if I wanted to do so without falling back into a dichotomy, I would bring Ryle and his warnings on the concept of mind, and I would remark that orientation is an achievement, not a process. Orienting, as a process verb, is something that takes movement (and therefore time) to get achieved. Thus, in every occasion that someone orients to something, that orienting exists in and as a gesture, a gaze, a word, or a variety of those together. Before you do orient, there is not yet an orientation. Perhaps a disposition to do so, and one which is not inside you but with goes along with your circumstances. So, a way to dissolve the dichotomy that is implied saying that orientation is cognitive and gesture is material (as if cognition was not material and gesture not cognitive) may be to admit that orienting (thinking, cognizing) takes gesture, and other material things, to be achieved. It is in this sense that I think that notions of movement, such as Dewey's "an experience," are useful to think of what is foundational about thinking. > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: 14 October 2015 19:09 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > Huw, > Does this work for you?: > Gesture as basically acting. Doing. > Orientation as basically thinking. Construal. > Gesture and orientation are construed as being on a continuum. > At the same time: Gesture is a proper subset of orientation. Alternativeky, orientation is ground for gesture. > Langacker construes grammar as symbolic in nature, with phonological space a subset of semantic space. Keeping in mind that semantic space, meaning, is contextual, both spatially and temporally. Gesture is prototypically material, indexical. Orientation is prototypically cognitive and affective. Yet there is no non-arbitrary division (dichotomy) between gesture and orientation. > > I think I am in way over my head regarding set theory, but do any of your ?trigger scenarios? fall into a trap of dichotomization, where the participants in a project push for a checklist of properties to determine what an object actually is, rather than admit to fuzziness of categories? The work of Rosch comes to mind. I am also thinking of scientific and practical concepts and an article by Peter Smagorinsky about those ideas. > > Tentatively, > Henry > > P.S. A vigorous nod to Peg and Huw regarding ?allos?, as in allophones. A great example of the the relationships between the concrete (phonetic realization of allophones) and the abstract (the phonemic unit that ?represents? the ?bundle? of allophones). The -etic and the -emic. Again, a continuum, rather than a simple dichotomy. I want to recognize that there are some lingusts who do not ascribe to phonemes at all, think that such an abstract representation is not required to model language, especially as it applies to the production and comprehension of language with computers. Again, over my head. > > > >> On Oct 14, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >> >> Huw, thanks a lot! Your experiences is very valuable for what I am looking at now, really. I'll definitively keep you posted on what I get up to. >> >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd >> Sent: 14 October 2015 17:50 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >> >> Alfredo, >> >> Regarding "how the situated work taking place during a shift of >> (computational) paradigm would differ", generalising from my experience I >> usually see a breakdown in communication and an approach is taken in which >> the program is inched forward, perhaps akin to tacking to a coastline. >> >> What was a reasonable strategy for a quick solution transforms over time >> into an abuse of the language, such as 20 files consisting of nested if >> statements that are several hundred lines long used to parse text files. >> >> Depending upon the experience, common trigger scenarios might be: >> >> Object oriented programming. >> Inversion of control (using frameworks) >> Multithreaded programming. >> Functional programming >> >> But even when the language constructs are well known there can be >> disagreements concerning other basic representational and orientational >> constructs, such as what an event is, whether an input is interior or >> exterior to an encapsulation, whether value objects or identity objects are >> used, and whether the problem domain is actually articulated in the >> software. >> >> Regarding gesture, I would say that gestures index orientation mediated by >> conscious goals. So I would agree that gesture, rather than mere wording, >> helps to orient. But I would tend to disagree that gesture is >> 'foundational'. For me, orientation is king. It would be interesting to >> see if you make something else of it. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> On 14 October 2015 at 15:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >> >>> Huw, >>> thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. The >>> software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained sense of >>> "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing paradigm. >>> Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them to be >>> able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being >>> designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just >>> (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also drawings, >>> gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there was >>> some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced makes >>> me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of >>> (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am >>> observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. >>> >>> Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported with >>> respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings attention >>> to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities (bodies). I >>> am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the >>> differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the work of >>> producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind of >>> situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend to >>> Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the >>> material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for >>> those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) that >>> both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift >>> involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to orienting >>> towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be >>> interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical >>> conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this >>> account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to >>> lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination >>> takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation alone, >>> it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the materials >>> offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of naming, >>> of using words. >>> >>> Alfredo >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of >>> HENRY SHONERD >>> Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>> >>> Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on >>> boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded naming? >>> I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated >>> movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be named. A >>> verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s >>> conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that >>> replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get >>> outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, >>> loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes when >>> operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst the >>> experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the >>> project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and >>> abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse >>> generally? That would provide nice praxis. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Henry >>> >>>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Alfredo, >>>> >>>> I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need qualification. >>>> Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with >>> to-be-designed >>>> artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of >>> things >>>> conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are >>>> usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly >>>> knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). >>>> >>>> Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational >>> paradigm >>>> would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the >>> dawning >>>> realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, >>> with >>>> respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft >>>> requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which >>> will >>>> be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. >>> being >>>> paid to get something built. >>>> >>>> Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate >>>> functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable >>>> establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you >>> may >>>> well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Huw >>>> >>>> On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Henry, all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a >>>>> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two >>>>> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet >>>>> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to >>> possibly >>>>> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one >>>>> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, >>> the >>>>> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but >>> which >>>>> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin >>> working >>>>> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen >>>>> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes >>> time >>>>> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" that >>> you >>>>> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, >>> very >>>>> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience of >>>>> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely >>> here. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: HENRY SHONERD >>>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker >>>>> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>>> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come >>> up >>>>> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As you >>>>> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I >>> can >>>>> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most >>>>> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability >>> of >>>>> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in >>> time >>>>> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" >>> ("irrealis"). >>>>> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on >>>>> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most people, >>> if >>>>> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. >>> Animals >>>>> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might >>> be >>>>> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I >>> would >>>>> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as the >>>>> spatial, with displacement. >>>>> >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > From Peg.Griffin@att.net Wed Oct 14 18:00:48 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 21:00:48 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> <003b01d10694$6a058c50$3e10a4f0$@att.net> Message-ID: <000f01d106e4$eefe5310$ccfaf930$@att.net> Wasn't it published in Russian, Mike? -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 8:08 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Reflective Discourse on XMCA Peg et al -- Here is a set of representations using mediational triangles that underpin the method we called "question asking reading." The full, initial, (never published) text on which this is based can be found at http://lchc.ucsd.edu/People/NEWTECHN.pdf The first triangle represents the desired endpoint of the reading pedagogy The second two triangles show how the child's entering, fragmentary, understanding is juxtaposed with the adults mature understanding-- the first as simple juxtaposition,the second with overlap arising from instructional dialogue which reduces the gap between existing and desired end points. The third puts time/dynamics into this representation and indicates how all reading comprehension involves the bridging of the gap between the "mediated" and "direct" routes. Directly relevant to questions of displacement, gap filling, and imagination, although we used none of those terms at the time. Perhaps you can fill in, Peg, if mike On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:49 AM, mike cole > wrote: > That is a very useful reminder/suggestion, peg. I will look for the > figure and post it, perhaps with a little text for con-text. > > thanks! > mike > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:24 AM, Peg Griffin > wrote: > >> Mike, do you recall the juxtaposed triangles we used when we were >> analyzing Alejandro and Benny's reading with an adult? >> Here's how I recall it: >> Each figure had two incomplete equilateral triangles sharing a >> baseline, one with the apex up and the other with the apex down. The >> whole came out kind of like a diamond shape but, on the right side of >> the page, it was the sides didn't meet -- leaving the future open. >> The author, the teacher and the child put in what they could but >> where it went no-one could know... >> >> Another tidbit for the stone soup of ideas: you wrote "a difference >> that does not make a difference" -- briding form linguistics >> terminology we might call it "allo-meanings" (see allophones as the model). >> Peg >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin >> = >> att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu >> ] On Behalf >> Of mike cole >> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:51 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >> >> Alfredo >> >> Might it be that words are NEVER enough? That all comprehension of >> another's words require imagination? Its just that sometimes the gap >> to be filled falls within a kind of normative range that is a >> difference that does NOT make a difference, while others require >> sufficient discontinuity to require intentional/conscious effort to bridge in a *satisficing* way. >> >> mike >> >> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:44 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> > > >> wrote: >> >> > Huw, >> > thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. >> > The software developers case that I mentioned is more on the >> > contained sense of "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a >> > shift of >> computing paradigm. >> > Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for >> > them to be able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature >> > thereby being designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", >> > included not just (technical, specialized) names already familiar >> > to them, but also drawings, gesturing, and performance. So, the >> > words were not enough, and there was some form of imagination going >> > on. So the distinction you introduced makes me wonder how the >> > situated work taking place during a shift of >> > (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that >> > I am observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. >> > >> > Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we >> > reported with respect to boundary objects is interesting here >> > because it brings attention to objects (materials) and their >> > relation to our sensitivities (bodies). I am thinking if this >> > connection might be of help to understand the differences between >> > the work that minor innovations involve and the work of producing major paradigm shifts. >> > Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind of situated social >> > interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend to Latour's >> > discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the >> > material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions >> > for those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can >> > imagine (!) that both going through a minor innovation and going >> > through a major shift involve some movement from not being aware of >> > a possibility to orienting towards that very possibility. Studying >> > differences there would be interesting. But I guess that the key >> > lies in the prior historical conditions for the innovation/shift to >> > emerge. Imagination may, in this account, be a form of perceiving >> > things that, to be so perceived, need to lend themselves to those >> > perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination takes place first as >> > performative work, and not as mental operation alone, it needs to >> > rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the materials >> > offer. And those possibilities, of course, include >> possibilities of naming, of using words. >> > >> > Alfredo >> > ________________________________________ >> > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> > > > on >> behalf of >> > HENRY SHONERD > > >> > Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 >> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >> > >> > Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article >> > (on boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture >> > preceded >> naming? >> > I mean that the boundary object started as >> > collaborative/coordinated movement. It was a perfomance before it >> > was a thing that could be named. A verb before it was a noun. And >> > does this have anything to do with Huw?s conjecture about a >> > continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that replicate >> > (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get >> > outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, >> > Latinate, loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves >> > important purposes when operating on the generalization and >> > abstraction side of things, amongst the experts. But boundary >> > objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the project members >> > are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and abstracting. >> > Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse >> > generally? That >> would provide nice praxis. >> > >> > Respectfully, >> > Henry >> > >> > > On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd > > >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > Alfredo, >> > > >> > > I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need >> qualification. >> > > Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with >> > to-be-designed >> > > artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category >> > > of >> > things >> > > conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they >> > > are usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like >> > > roughly knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). >> > > >> > > Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new >> > > computational >> > paradigm >> > > would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown >> > > (the >> > dawning >> > > realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). >> > > Also, >> > with >> > > respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft >> > > requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, >> > > which >> > will >> > > be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. >> > being >> > > paid to get something built. >> > > >> > > Naming is very important in software in order to try to >> > > communicate functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt >> > > be comfortable establishing agreement about naming before moving >> > > on. Nonetheless you >> > may >> > > well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. >> > > >> > > Best, >> > > Huw >> > > >> > > On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> > > > > >> > wrote: >> > > >> > >> Henry, all, >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> I am at this moment going through a video database on design >> > >> work in a software development company, and, observing a >> > >> discussion between two developers who talk about features of the >> > >> software that are not yet developed, but which could be, ??the >> > >> insight came upon me that, to >> > possibly >> > >> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it >> > >> since one alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had >> > >> to name it. So, >> > the >> > >> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist >> > >> but >> > which >> > >> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even >> > >> begin >> > working >> > >> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not >> > >> happen immediately, because they do not have a name for it. >> > >> Naming it takes >> > time >> > >> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" >> > >> that >> > you >> > >> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the >> > >> imagining, >> > very >> > >> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the >> > >> salience of "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" >> > >> may be timely >> > here. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Alfredo >> > >> >> > >> ________________________________ >> > >> From: HENRY SHONERD > > >> > >> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 >> > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > >> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker >> > >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >> > >> >> > >> Mike, >> > >> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might >> > >> "...come >> > up >> > >> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". >> > >> As you say, each chatter will have their own response to that. >> > >> Mine is that I >> > can >> > >> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the >> > >> most important property of language as a semiotic system. It is >> > >> the ability >> > of >> > >> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world >> > >> removed in >> > time >> > >> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" >> > ("irrealis"). >> > >> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour >> > >> on Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. >> > >> Most people, >> > if >> > >> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. >> > Animals >> > >> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It >> > >> might >> > be >> > >> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than >> > >> people.!) I >> > would >> > >> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well >> > >> as the spatial, with displacement. >> > >> >> > >> Henry >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >> >> > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From djwdoc@yahoo.com Wed Oct 14 22:58:04 2015 From: djwdoc@yahoo.com (Douglas Williams) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 05:58:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <1444846734442.42602@iped.uio.no> References: <1444846734442.42602@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <203607634.678216.1444888684595.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I will hazard a comment here and note that what you are describing is what I think is usually described as performing "business analysis" and developing "business rules," which is another way of describing the kind of memory palace that developers construct from functional requests, observation, interviews, etc., so that they can relate specific code objects, classes and methods to the fuzzier world of social interactions, organizational interactions, and group intentions that you're designing an application to address. Business rules are a set of postulates and theories about the groups and interactions for which you are designing; it's a kind of applied social science. Negotiation, between developers approaching these groups and interactions from different areas, and between developers and users, is pretty continuous--especially with Agile development, in which you spend a lot of time by design in negotiation. The problems you solve may create other problems. The metaphors of interaction you use may be wrong. Certainly imagination enters into the process. To develop something really useful, you have to think beyond existing practices, which are often a compromise, to the user goal. With that goal in mind, you can ignore what is, and create something different that provides a better affordance to achieve that goal, or perhaps merge related superficial goals into a deeper common goal. And in the process of interaction, designers and users create systems of interaction that evolve both of their tribes. It's entirely possible I'm missing the point of what you're trying to get at, or I'm seeing it simplistically, but that's what comes to my mind. Alan Kay of Xerox PARC famously said "the best way to predict the future is to invent it." But you can't invent the future without spending a good deal of time observing systems as they are, and then trying to see where intention is thwarted by poor design, or blocked by unnecessary barriers. Along those lines, if I'm not entirely wrong, maybe this would be a useful reference. http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2011004_steps11.pdf Doug From: Alfredo Jornet Gil To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:18 AM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA If I were to set gesture and orientation along a continuum, as Henry suggests, and if I wanted to do so without falling back into a dichotomy, I would bring Ryle and his warnings on the concept of mind, and I would remark that orientation is an achievement, not a process. Orienting, as a process verb, is something that takes movement (and therefore time) to get achieved. Thus, in every occasion that someone orients to something, that orienting exists in and as a gesture, a gaze, a word, or a variety of those together. Before you do orient, there is not yet an orientation. Perhaps a disposition to do so, and one which is not inside you but with goes along with your circumstances. So, a way to dissolve the dichotomy that is implied saying that orientation is cognitive and gesture is material (as if cognition was not material and gesture not cognitive) may be to admit that orienting (thinking, cognizing) takes gesture, and other material things, to be achieved. It is in this sense that I think that notions of movement, such as Dewey's "an experience," are useful to think of what is foundational about thinking. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD Sent: 14 October 2015 19:09 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA Huw, Does this work for you?: Gesture as basically acting. Doing. Orientation as basically thinking. Construal. Gesture and orientation are construed as being on a continuum. At the same time: Gesture is a proper subset of orientation. Alternativeky, orientation is ground for gesture. Langacker construes grammar as symbolic in nature, with phonological space a subset of semantic space. Keeping in mind that semantic space, meaning, is contextual, both spatially and temporally. Gesture is prototypically material, indexical. Orientation is prototypically cognitive and affective. Yet there is no non-arbitrary division (dichotomy) between gesture and orientation. I think I am in way over my head regarding set theory, but do any of your ?trigger scenarios? fall into a trap of dichotomization, where the participants in a project push for a checklist of properties to determine what an object actually is, rather than admit to fuzziness of categories? The work of Rosch comes to mind. I am also thinking of scientific and practical concepts and an article by Peter Smagorinsky about those ideas. Tentatively, Henry P.S. A vigorous nod to Peg and Huw regarding ?allos?, as in allophones. A great example of the the relationships between the concrete (phonetic realization of allophones) and the abstract (the phonemic unit that ?represents? the ?bundle? of allophones). The -etic and the -emic. Again, a continuum, rather than a simple dichotomy. I want to recognize that there are some lingusts who do not ascribe to phonemes at all, think that such an abstract representation is not required to model language, especially as it applies to the production and comprehension of language with computers. Again, over my head. > On Oct 14, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > Huw, thanks a lot! Your experiences is very valuable for what I am looking at now, really. I'll definitively keep you posted on what I get up to. > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd > Sent: 14 October 2015 17:50 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > Alfredo, > > Regarding "how the situated work taking place during a shift of > (computational) paradigm would differ", generalising from my experience I > usually see a breakdown in communication and an approach is taken in which > the program is inched forward, perhaps akin to tacking to a coastline. > > What was a reasonable strategy for a quick solution transforms over time > into an abuse of the language, such as 20 files consisting of nested if > statements that are several hundred lines long used to parse text files. > > Depending upon the experience, common trigger scenarios might be: > > Object oriented programming. > Inversion of control (using frameworks) > Multithreaded programming. > Functional programming > > But even when the language constructs are well known there can be > disagreements concerning other basic representational and orientational > constructs, such as what an event is, whether an input is interior or > exterior to an encapsulation, whether value objects or identity objects are > used, and whether the problem domain is actually articulated in the > software. > > Regarding gesture, I would say that gestures index orientation mediated by > conscious goals.? So I would agree that gesture, rather than mere wording, > helps to orient.? But I would tend to disagree that gesture is > 'foundational'.? For me, orientation is king.? It would be interesting to > see if you make something else of it. > > Best, > Huw > > > On 14 October 2015 at 15:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > >> Huw, >> thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. The >> software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained sense of >> "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing paradigm. >> Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them to be >> able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being >> designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just >> (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also drawings, >> gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there was >> some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced makes >> me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of >> (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am >> observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. >> >> Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported with >> respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings attention >> to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities (bodies). I >> am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the >> differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the work of >> producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind of >> situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend to >> Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the >> material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for >> those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) that >> both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift >> involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to orienting >> towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be >> interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical >> conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this >> account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to >> lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination >> takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation alone, >> it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the materials >> offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of naming, >> of using words. >> >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of >> HENRY SHONERD >> Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >> >> Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on >> boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded naming? >> I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated >> movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be named. A >> verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s >> conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that >> replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other,? those that ?get >> outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, >> loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes when >> operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst the >> experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the >> project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and >> abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse >> generally? That would provide nice praxis. >> >> Respectfully, >> Henry >> >>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >>> >>> Alfredo, >>> >>> I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need qualification. >>> Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with >> to-be-designed >>> artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of >> things >>> conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are >>> usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly >>> knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). >>> >>> Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational >> paradigm >>> would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the >> dawning >>> realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit).? Also, >> with >>> respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft >>> requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which >> will >>> be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. >> being >>> paid to get something built. >>> >>> Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate >>> functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable >>> establishing agreement about naming before moving on.? Nonetheless you >> may >>> well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >>> >>>> Henry, all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a >>>> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two >>>> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet >>>> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to >> possibly >>>> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one >>>> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, >> the >>>> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but >> which >>>> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin >> working >>>> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen >>>> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes >> time >>>> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" that >> you >>>> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, >> very >>>> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience of >>>> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely >> here. >>>> >>>> >>>> Alfredo >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: HENRY SHONERD >>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker >>>> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>>> >>>> Mike, >>>> In your original post on Oct 10, you? suggested that we might "...come >> up >>>> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As you >>>> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I >> can >>>> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most >>>> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability >> of >>>> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in >> time >>>> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" >> ("irrealis"). >>>> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on >>>> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most people, >> if >>>> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. >> Animals >>>> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might >> be >>>> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I >> would >>>> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as the >>>> spatial, with displacement. >>>> >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> > From smago@uga.edu Thu Oct 15 09:47:51 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 16:47:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: [DPJ] A new article was published by DPJ In-Reply-To: <0NW900MXHR19QP@smtp-prod-01.cssd.pitt.edu> References: <0NW900MXHR19QP@smtp-prod-01.cssd.pitt.edu> Message-ID: Of possible interest: -----Original Message----- From: Dialogic Pedagogy Journal [mailto:dpjournal@mail.pitt.edu] Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 11:58 AM To: Peter Smagorinsky Subject: [DPJ] A new article was published by DPJ Dear DPJ members, Dialogic Pedagogy: An International Online Journal has just published a new article: Lemberger, D. (2015). Dialogical Grammar: Varieties of Dialogue in Wittgenstein?s Methodology. Dialogic Pedagogy: An International Online Journal, 3. doi:http://dx.doi.org/10.5195/dpj.2015.132 DPJ Managing Editors for this article were: Manolis Dafermos Huili Hong We congratulate the author and the Managing Editors on this publication! We invite you to read the manuscript at: http://dpj.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/dpj1/article/view/132 Thanks for the continuing interest in our work, Eugene Matusov Ana Marjanovic-Shane Jim Cresswell Editors, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal ________________________________________________________________________ Dialogic Pedagogy: An International Online Journal http://dpj.pitt.edu/ From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Oct 15 11:02:37 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 11:02:37 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <000f01d106e4$eefe5310$ccfaf930$@att.net> References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> <003b01d10694$6a058c50$3e10a4f0$@att.net> <000f01d106e4$eefe5310$ccfaf930$@att.net> Message-ID: Yes.. I forgot that! There is a PDF somewhere I believe, but it should be oflittle. Interest to most mcaers. Mike On Wednesday, October 14, 2015, Peg Griffin wrote: > Wasn't it published in Russian, Mike? > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin =att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu > ] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 8:08 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > Peg et al -- Here is a set of representations using mediational triangles > that underpin the method we called "question asking reading." The full, > initial, (never published) text on which this is based can be found at > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/People/NEWTECHN.pdf > > The first triangle represents the desired endpoint of the reading pedagogy > The second two triangles show how the child's entering, fragmentary, > understanding is juxtaposed with the adults mature understanding-- the > first as simple juxtaposition,the second with overlap arising from > instructional dialogue which reduces the gap between existing and desired > end points. The third puts time/dynamics into this representation and > indicates how all reading comprehension involves the bridging of the gap > between the "mediated" and "direct" routes. > > Directly relevant to questions of displacement, gap filling, and > imagination, although we used none of those terms at the time. > > Perhaps you can fill in, Peg, if > mike > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:49 AM, mike cole > ');>> wrote: > > > That is a very useful reminder/suggestion, peg. I will look for the > > figure and post it, perhaps with a little text for con-text. > > > > thanks! > > mike > > > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:24 AM, Peg Griffin > > ');>> > wrote: > > > >> Mike, do you recall the juxtaposed triangles we used when we were > >> analyzing Alejandro and Benny's reading with an adult? > >> Here's how I recall it: > >> Each figure had two incomplete equilateral triangles sharing a > >> baseline, one with the apex up and the other with the apex down. The > >> whole came out kind of like a diamond shape but, on the right side of > >> the page, it was the sides didn't meet -- leaving the future open. > >> The author, the teacher and the child put in what they could but > >> where it went no-one could know... > >> > >> Another tidbit for the stone soup of ideas: you wrote "a difference > >> that does not make a difference" -- briding form linguistics > >> terminology we might call it "allo-meanings" (see allophones as the > model). > >> Peg > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >> ');> > [mailto: > >> xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin > >> = > >> att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> ');>] > On Behalf > >> Of mike cole > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:51 AM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > >> > >> Alfredo > >> > >> Might it be that words are NEVER enough? That all comprehension of > >> another's words require imagination? Its just that sometimes the gap > >> to be filled falls within a kind of normative range that is a > >> difference that does NOT make a difference, while others require > >> sufficient discontinuity to require intentional/conscious effort to > bridge in a *satisficing* way. > >> > >> mike > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:44 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >> > >> ');>> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Huw, > >> > thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. > >> > The software developers case that I mentioned is more on the > >> > contained sense of "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a > >> > shift of > >> computing paradigm. > >> > Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for > >> > them to be able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature > >> > thereby being designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", > >> > included not just (technical, specialized) names already familiar > >> > to them, but also drawings, gesturing, and performance. So, the > >> > words were not enough, and there was some form of imagination going > >> > on. So the distinction you introduced makes me wonder how the > >> > situated work taking place during a shift of > >> > (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that > >> > I am observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. > >> > > >> > Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we > >> > reported with respect to boundary objects is interesting here > >> > because it brings attention to objects (materials) and their > >> > relation to our sensitivities (bodies). I am thinking if this > >> > connection might be of help to understand the differences between > >> > the work that minor innovations involve and the work of producing > major paradigm shifts. > >> > Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind of situated social > >> > interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend to Latour's > >> > discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the > >> > material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions > >> > for those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can > >> > imagine (!) that both going through a minor innovation and going > >> > through a major shift involve some movement from not being aware of > >> > a possibility to orienting towards that very possibility. Studying > >> > differences there would be interesting. But I guess that the key > >> > lies in the prior historical conditions for the innovation/shift to > >> > emerge. Imagination may, in this account, be a form of perceiving > >> > things that, to be so perceived, need to lend themselves to those > >> > perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination takes place first as > >> > performative work, and not as mental operation alone, it needs to > >> > rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the materials > >> > offer. And those possibilities, of course, include > >> possibilities of naming, of using words. > >> > > >> > Alfredo > >> > ________________________________________ > >> > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >> ');> > >> > > >> ');>> on > >> behalf of > >> > HENRY SHONERD > >> ');>> > >> > Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 > >> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > >> > > >> > Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article > >> > (on boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture > >> > preceded > >> naming? > >> > I mean that the boundary object started as > >> > collaborative/coordinated movement. It was a perfomance before it > >> > was a thing that could be named. A verb before it was a noun. And > >> > does this have anything to do with Huw?s conjecture about a > >> > continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that replicate > >> > (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get > >> > outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, > >> > Latinate, loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves > >> > important purposes when operating on the generalization and > >> > abstraction side of things, amongst the experts. But boundary > >> > objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the project members > >> > are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and abstracting. > >> > Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse > >> > generally? That > >> would provide nice praxis. > >> > > >> > Respectfully, > >> > Henry > >> > > >> > > On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd > >> > ');>> > >> > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > Alfredo, > >> > > > >> > > I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need > >> qualification. > >> > > Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with > >> > to-be-designed > >> > > artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category > >> > > of > >> > things > >> > > conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they > >> > > are usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like > >> > > roughly knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). > >> > > > >> > > Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new > >> > > computational > >> > paradigm > >> > > would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown > >> > > (the > >> > dawning > >> > > realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). > >> > > Also, > >> > with > >> > > respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft > >> > > requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, > >> > > which > >> > will > >> > > be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, > i.e. > >> > being > >> > > paid to get something built. > >> > > > >> > > Naming is very important in software in order to try to > >> > > communicate functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt > >> > > be comfortable establishing agreement about naming before moving > >> > > on. Nonetheless you > >> > may > >> > > well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. > >> > > > >> > > Best, > >> > > Huw > >> > > > >> > > On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >> > > > >> ');>> > >> > wrote: > >> > > > >> > >> Henry, all, > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I am at this moment going through a video database on design > >> > >> work in a software development company, and, observing a > >> > >> discussion between two developers who talk about features of the > >> > >> software that are not yet developed, but which could be, ??the > >> > >> insight came upon me that, to > >> > possibly > >> > >> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it > >> > >> since one alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had > >> > >> to name it. So, > >> > the > >> > >> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist > >> > >> but > >> > which > >> > >> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even > >> > >> begin > >> > working > >> > >> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not > >> > >> happen immediately, because they do not have a name for it. > >> > >> Naming it takes > >> > time > >> > >> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" > >> > >> that > >> > you > >> > >> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the > >> > >> imagining, > >> > very > >> > >> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the > >> > >> salience of "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" > >> > >> may be timely > >> > here. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Alfredo > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> > >> From: HENRY SHONERD > >> ');>> > >> > >> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 > >> > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> > >> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker > >> > >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > >> > >> > >> > >> Mike, > >> > >> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might > >> > >> "...come > >> > up > >> > >> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". > >> > >> As you say, each chatter will have their own response to that. > >> > >> Mine is that I > >> > can > >> > >> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the > >> > >> most important property of language as a semiotic system. It is > >> > >> the ability > >> > of > >> > >> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world > >> > >> removed in > >> > time > >> > >> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" > >> > ("irrealis"). > >> > >> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour > >> > >> on Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. > >> > >> Most people, > >> > if > >> > >> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. > >> > Animals > >> > >> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It > >> > >> might > >> > be > >> > >> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than > >> > >> people.!) I > >> > would > >> > >> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well > >> > >> as the spatial, with displacement. > >> > >> > >> > >> Henry > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Fri Oct 16 11:21:33 2015 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 18:21:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <203607634.678216.1444888684595.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1444846734442.42602@iped.uio.no>, <203607634.678216.1444888684595.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1445019691847.97517@iped.uio.no> Dough, your description makes sense to me, and it seems entirely in line with what has been discussed so far. Doing business analysis and developing business rules seem adequate glosses of what developers do. The link you provide (thanks!) leads to a quite technical progress report on a software innovation project. I guess that a possible and interesting research focus, and one that I assume several here pursue, is to investigate how these after-the-fact descriptions that constitute the "memory palace" that you mention, relate to the prior historical and actual situated work that orients the participants and opens new horizons to them in situ, for the first time. What material and ideal conditions allow them to move on and come up with this descriptions/products? Relating code objects, classes, etc. to the "fuzzier world of social interactions", as you write, really reminds me to Leigh Star's concerns on formal categories and the lived work/experiences of falling inside or outside of them; a theme developed, for example, in Star & Bowker 1997 in MCA, as well as in their papers describing "residual categories." Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Douglas Williams Sent: 15 October 2015 07:58 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA I will hazard a comment here and note that what you are describing is what I think is usually described as performing "business analysis" and developing "business rules," which is another way of describing the kind of memory palace that developers construct from functional requests, observation, interviews, etc., so that they can relate specific code objects, classes and methods to the fuzzier world of social interactions, organizational interactions, and group intentions that you're designing an application to address. Business rules are a set of postulates and theories about the groups and interactions for which you are designing; it's a kind of applied social science. Negotiation, between developers approaching these groups and interactions from different areas, and between developers and users, is pretty continuous--especially with Agile development, in which you spend a lot of time by design in negotiation. The problems you solve may create other problems. The metaphors of interaction you use may be wrong. Certainly imagination enters into the process. To develop something really useful, you have to think beyond existing practices, which are often a compromise, to the user goal. With that goal in mind, you can ignore what is, and create something different that provides a better affordance to achieve that goal, or perhaps merge related superficial goals into a deeper common goal. And in the process of interaction, designers and users create systems of interaction that evolve both of their tribes. It's entirely possible I'm missing the point of what you're trying to get at, or I'm seeing it simplistically, but that's what comes to my mind. Alan Kay of Xerox PARC famously said "the best way to predict the future is to invent it." But you can't invent the future without spending a good deal of time observing systems as they are, and then trying to see where intention is thwarted by poor design, or blocked by unnecessary barriers. Along those lines, if I'm not entirely wrong, maybe this would be a useful reference. http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2011004_steps11.pdf Doug From: Alfredo Jornet Gil To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:18 AM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA If I were to set gesture and orientation along a continuum, as Henry suggests, and if I wanted to do so without falling back into a dichotomy, I would bring Ryle and his warnings on the concept of mind, and I would remark that orientation is an achievement, not a process. Orienting, as a process verb, is something that takes movement (and therefore time) to get achieved. Thus, in every occasion that someone orients to something, that orienting exists in and as a gesture, a gaze, a word, or a variety of those together. Before you do orient, there is not yet an orientation. Perhaps a disposition to do so, and one which is not inside you but with goes along with your circumstances. So, a way to dissolve the dichotomy that is implied saying that orientation is cognitive and gesture is material (as if cognition was not material and gesture not cognitive) may be to admit that orienting (thinking, cognizing) takes gesture, and other material things, to be achieved. It is in this sense that I think that notions of movement, such as Dewey's "an experience," are useful to think of what is foundational about thinking. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD Sent: 14 October 2015 19:09 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA Huw, Does this work for you?: Gesture as basically acting. Doing. Orientation as basically thinking. Construal. Gesture and orientation are construed as being on a continuum. At the same time: Gesture is a proper subset of orientation. Alternativeky, orientation is ground for gesture. Langacker construes grammar as symbolic in nature, with phonological space a subset of semantic space. Keeping in mind that semantic space, meaning, is contextual, both spatially and temporally. Gesture is prototypically material, indexical. Orientation is prototypically cognitive and affective. Yet there is no non-arbitrary division (dichotomy) between gesture and orientation. I think I am in way over my head regarding set theory, but do any of your ?trigger scenarios? fall into a trap of dichotomization, where the participants in a project push for a checklist of properties to determine what an object actually is, rather than admit to fuzziness of categories? The work of Rosch comes to mind. I am also thinking of scientific and practical concepts and an article by Peter Smagorinsky about those ideas. Tentatively, Henry P.S. A vigorous nod to Peg and Huw regarding ?allos?, as in allophones. A great example of the the relationships between the concrete (phonetic realization of allophones) and the abstract (the phonemic unit that ?represents? the ?bundle? of allophones). The -etic and the -emic. Again, a continuum, rather than a simple dichotomy. I want to recognize that there are some lingusts who do not ascribe to phonemes at all, think that such an abstract representation is not required to model language, especially as it applies to the production and comprehension of language with computers. Again, over my head. > On Oct 14, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > Huw, thanks a lot! Your experiences is very valuable for what I am looking at now, really. I'll definitively keep you posted on what I get up to. > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd > Sent: 14 October 2015 17:50 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > Alfredo, > > Regarding "how the situated work taking place during a shift of > (computational) paradigm would differ", generalising from my experience I > usually see a breakdown in communication and an approach is taken in which > the program is inched forward, perhaps akin to tacking to a coastline. > > What was a reasonable strategy for a quick solution transforms over time > into an abuse of the language, such as 20 files consisting of nested if > statements that are several hundred lines long used to parse text files. > > Depending upon the experience, common trigger scenarios might be: > > Object oriented programming. > Inversion of control (using frameworks) > Multithreaded programming. > Functional programming > > But even when the language constructs are well known there can be > disagreements concerning other basic representational and orientational > constructs, such as what an event is, whether an input is interior or > exterior to an encapsulation, whether value objects or identity objects are > used, and whether the problem domain is actually articulated in the > software. > > Regarding gesture, I would say that gestures index orientation mediated by > conscious goals. So I would agree that gesture, rather than mere wording, > helps to orient. But I would tend to disagree that gesture is > 'foundational'. For me, orientation is king. It would be interesting to > see if you make something else of it. > > Best, > Huw > > > On 14 October 2015 at 15:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > >> Huw, >> thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. The >> software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained sense of >> "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing paradigm. >> Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them to be >> able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being >> designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just >> (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also drawings, >> gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there was >> some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced makes >> me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of >> (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am >> observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. >> >> Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported with >> respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings attention >> to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities (bodies). I >> am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the >> differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the work of >> producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind of >> situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend to >> Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the >> material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for >> those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) that >> both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift >> involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to orienting >> towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be >> interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical >> conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this >> account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to >> lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination >> takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation alone, >> it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the materials >> offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of naming, >> of using words. >> >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of >> HENRY SHONERD >> Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >> >> Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on >> boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded naming? >> I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated >> movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be named. A >> verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s >> conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that >> replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get >> outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, >> loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes when >> operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst the >> experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the >> project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and >> abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse >> generally? That would provide nice praxis. >> >> Respectfully, >> Henry >> >>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >>> >>> Alfredo, >>> >>> I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need qualification. >>> Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with >> to-be-designed >>> artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of >> things >>> conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are >>> usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly >>> knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). >>> >>> Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational >> paradigm >>> would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the >> dawning >>> realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, >> with >>> respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft >>> requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which >> will >>> be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. >> being >>> paid to get something built. >>> >>> Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate >>> functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable >>> establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you >> may >>> well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >>> >>>> Henry, all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a >>>> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two >>>> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet >>>> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to >> possibly >>>> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one >>>> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, >> the >>>> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but >> which >>>> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin >> working >>>> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen >>>> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes >> time >>>> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" that >> you >>>> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, >> very >>>> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience of >>>> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely >> here. >>>> >>>> >>>> Alfredo >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: HENRY SHONERD >>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker >>>> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>>> >>>> Mike, >>>> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come >> up >>>> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As you >>>> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I >> can >>>> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most >>>> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability >> of >>>> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in >> time >>>> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" >> ("irrealis"). >>>> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on >>>> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most people, >> if >>>> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. >> Animals >>>> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might >> be >>>> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I >> would >>>> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as the >>>> spatial, with displacement. >>>> >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Fri Oct 16 11:28:16 2015 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 18:28:16 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> <1444838646095.60751@iped.uio.no>, Message-ID: <1445020095837.94572@iped.uio.no> Larry, I just read your notes and wanted to thank you. There are so many interesting things that I would not know how to begin addressing them (though I hope I'll get the chance soon). But I wanted to let you know that I thoroughly enjoyed the way you move us through a sort of inter-stelar travel in your text. I really like the way you treat different traditions of thinking as gravitational fields, where notions such as "objects" make sense only as part of a larger arrangement of concepts and ideas/discourses. The travel you describe certainly touches into some of what we (or at least I) experience when we move across literatures to try to achieve coherent and pragmatically productive ways of approaching the study of human practices. And it also helped me to better see and appreciate (at least fragments of) what others had contributed in prior discussions in the thread. So, thanks for that! Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Larry Purss Sent: 14 October 2015 18:55 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA I have been deeply engaged with the topic of boundary objects and notions of orientation. Here attached is a response. It is rather long and this is why it is sent as an attachment. I want to thank everyone for our shared voices. On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Huw, thanks a lot! Your experiences is very valuable for what I am looking > at now, really. I'll definitively keep you posted on what I get up to. > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Huw > Lloyd > Sent: 14 October 2015 17:50 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > Alfredo, > > Regarding "how the situated work taking place during a shift of > (computational) paradigm would differ", generalising from my experience I > usually see a breakdown in communication and an approach is taken in which > the program is inched forward, perhaps akin to tacking to a coastline. > > What was a reasonable strategy for a quick solution transforms over time > into an abuse of the language, such as 20 files consisting of nested if > statements that are several hundred lines long used to parse text files. > > Depending upon the experience, common trigger scenarios might be: > > Object oriented programming. > Inversion of control (using frameworks) > Multithreaded programming. > Functional programming > > But even when the language constructs are well known there can be > disagreements concerning other basic representational and orientational > constructs, such as what an event is, whether an input is interior or > exterior to an encapsulation, whether value objects or identity objects are > used, and whether the problem domain is actually articulated in the > software. > > Regarding gesture, I would say that gestures index orientation mediated by > conscious goals. So I would agree that gesture, rather than mere wording, > helps to orient. But I would tend to disagree that gesture is > 'foundational'. For me, orientation is king. It would be interesting to > see if you make something else of it. > > Best, > Huw > > > On 14 October 2015 at 15:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > Huw, > > thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. The > > software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained sense > of > > "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing paradigm. > > Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them to > be > > able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being > > designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just > > (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also > drawings, > > gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there was > > some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced > makes > > me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of > > (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am > > observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. > > > > Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported > with > > respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings > attention > > to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities (bodies). > I > > am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the > > differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the work > of > > producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind > of > > situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend to > > Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the > > material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for > > those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) > that > > both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift > > involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to orienting > > towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be > > interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical > > conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this > > account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to > > lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination > > takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation > alone, > > it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the > materials > > offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of > naming, > > of using words. > > > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of > > HENRY SHONERD > > Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > > > Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on > > boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded > naming? > > I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated > > movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be named. > A > > verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s > > conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that > > replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get > > outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, > > loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes > when > > operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst > the > > experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the > > project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and > > abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse > > generally? That would provide nice praxis. > > > > Respectfully, > > Henry > > > > > On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd > > wrote: > > > > > > Alfredo, > > > > > > I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need > qualification. > > > Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with > > to-be-designed > > > artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of > > things > > > conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are > > > usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly > > > knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). > > > > > > Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational > > paradigm > > > would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the > > dawning > > > realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, > > with > > > respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft > > > requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which > > will > > > be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. > > being > > > paid to get something built. > > > > > > Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate > > > functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable > > > establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you > > may > > > well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. > > > > > > Best, > > > Huw > > > > > > On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > > > > >> Henry, all, > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a > > >> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two > > >> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet > > >> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to > > possibly > > >> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one > > >> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, > > the > > >> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but > > which > > >> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin > > working > > >> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen > > >> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes > > time > > >> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" > that > > you > > >> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, > > very > > >> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience > of > > >> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely > > here. > > >> > > >> > > >> Alfredo > > >> > > >> ________________________________ > > >> From: HENRY SHONERD > > >> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker > > >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > >> > > >> Mike, > > >> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come > > up > > >> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As > you > > >> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I > > can > > >> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most > > >> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability > > of > > >> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in > > time > > >> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" > > ("irrealis"). > > >> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on > > >> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most > people, > > if > > >> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. > > Animals > > >> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might > > be > > >> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I > > would > > >> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as > the > > >> spatial, with displacement. > > >> > > >> Henry > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Oct 16 12:56:55 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:56:55 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <1445020095837.94572@iped.uio.no> References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> <1444838646095.60751@iped.uio.no> <1445020095837.94572@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <0C6CC0D3-1320-4C41-A454-34B6D131DFCA@gmail.com> Larry, I also had read your post, but didn?t realize how generative your gravity metaphor was! I was more focused on what you said about play mimesis and affordances. After reading Alfredo?s response to your post, I got the following from Wikipedia?s ?gravity?: "Gravity is most accurately described by the general theory of relativity (proposed by Albert Einstein in 1915) which describes gravity, not as a force, but as a consequence of the curvature of spacetime caused by the uneven distribution of mass/energy; and resulting in time dilation , where time lapses more slowly in strong gravitation.? then further on: ?...gravity has a negligible influence on the behavior of sub-atomic particles, and plays no role in determining the internal properties of everyday matter (but see quantum gravity ). On the other hand, gravity is the dominant force at the macroscopic scale ?. Out on a limb, it seems to me that psychology and sociology parallel the micro/macro distinction in physics. And note the problems of reconciling relativity theory of Einstein with probabalistic quantum theory. In other words, physics seems to have had the same problems as social science in reconciling the micro and macro. Henry > On Oct 16, 2015, at 12:28 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > Larry, I just read your notes and wanted to thank you. There are so many interesting things that I would not know how to begin addressing them (though I hope I'll get the chance soon). But I wanted to let you know that I thoroughly enjoyed the way you move us through a sort of inter-stelar travel in your text. I really like the way you treat different traditions of thinking as gravitational fields, where notions such as "objects" make sense only as part of a larger arrangement of concepts and ideas/discourses. The travel you describe certainly touches into some of what we (or at least I) experience when we move across literatures to try to achieve coherent and pragmatically productive ways of approaching the study of human practices. And it also helped me to better see and appreciate (at least fragments of) what others had contributed in prior discussions in the thread. So, thanks for that! > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Larry Purss > Sent: 14 October 2015 18:55 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > I have been deeply engaged with the topic of boundary objects and notions > of orientation. > Here attached is a response. > It is rather long and this is why it is sent as an attachment. > I want to thank everyone for our shared voices. > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > >> Huw, thanks a lot! Your experiences is very valuable for what I am looking >> at now, really. I'll definitively keep you posted on what I get up to. >> >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Huw >> Lloyd >> Sent: 14 October 2015 17:50 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >> >> Alfredo, >> >> Regarding "how the situated work taking place during a shift of >> (computational) paradigm would differ", generalising from my experience I >> usually see a breakdown in communication and an approach is taken in which >> the program is inched forward, perhaps akin to tacking to a coastline. >> >> What was a reasonable strategy for a quick solution transforms over time >> into an abuse of the language, such as 20 files consisting of nested if >> statements that are several hundred lines long used to parse text files. >> >> Depending upon the experience, common trigger scenarios might be: >> >> Object oriented programming. >> Inversion of control (using frameworks) >> Multithreaded programming. >> Functional programming >> >> But even when the language constructs are well known there can be >> disagreements concerning other basic representational and orientational >> constructs, such as what an event is, whether an input is interior or >> exterior to an encapsulation, whether value objects or identity objects are >> used, and whether the problem domain is actually articulated in the >> software. >> >> Regarding gesture, I would say that gestures index orientation mediated by >> conscious goals. So I would agree that gesture, rather than mere wording, >> helps to orient. But I would tend to disagree that gesture is >> 'foundational'. For me, orientation is king. It would be interesting to >> see if you make something else of it. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> On 14 October 2015 at 15:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >> >>> Huw, >>> thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. The >>> software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained sense >> of >>> "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing paradigm. >>> Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them to >> be >>> able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being >>> designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just >>> (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also >> drawings, >>> gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there was >>> some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced >> makes >>> me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of >>> (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am >>> observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. >>> >>> Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported >> with >>> respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings >> attention >>> to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities (bodies). >> I >>> am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the >>> differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the work >> of >>> producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind >> of >>> situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend to >>> Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the >>> material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for >>> those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) >> that >>> both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift >>> involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to orienting >>> towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be >>> interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical >>> conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this >>> account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to >>> lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination >>> takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation >> alone, >>> it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the >> materials >>> offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of >> naming, >>> of using words. >>> >>> Alfredo >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of >>> HENRY SHONERD >>> Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>> >>> Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on >>> boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded >> naming? >>> I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated >>> movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be named. >> A >>> verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s >>> conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that >>> replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get >>> outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, >>> loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes >> when >>> operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst >> the >>> experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the >>> project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and >>> abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse >>> generally? That would provide nice praxis. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Henry >>> >>>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Alfredo, >>>> >>>> I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need >> qualification. >>>> Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with >>> to-be-designed >>>> artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of >>> things >>>> conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are >>>> usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly >>>> knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). >>>> >>>> Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational >>> paradigm >>>> would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the >>> dawning >>>> realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, >>> with >>>> respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft >>>> requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which >>> will >>>> be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. >>> being >>>> paid to get something built. >>>> >>>> Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate >>>> functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable >>>> establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you >>> may >>>> well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Huw >>>> >>>> On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Henry, all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a >>>>> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two >>>>> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet >>>>> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to >>> possibly >>>>> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one >>>>> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, >>> the >>>>> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but >>> which >>>>> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin >>> working >>>>> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen >>>>> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes >>> time >>>>> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" >> that >>> you >>>>> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, >>> very >>>>> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience >> of >>>>> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely >>> here. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: HENRY SHONERD >>>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker >>>>> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>>> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come >>> up >>>>> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As >> you >>>>> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I >>> can >>>>> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most >>>>> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability >>> of >>>>> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in >>> time >>>>> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" >>> ("irrealis"). >>>>> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on >>>>> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most >> people, >>> if >>>>> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. >>> Animals >>>>> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might >>> be >>>>> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I >>> would >>>>> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as >> the >>>>> spatial, with displacement. >>>>> >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Oct 16 13:21:00 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:21:00 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <1445019691847.97517@iped.uio.no> References: <1444846734442.42602@iped.uio.no> <203607634.678216.1444888684595.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1445019691847.97517@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: I have to ask if anyone (besides me) out there has read Ed Catmull?s Creativity, Inc. I was reminded of it by Doug?s quote of Alan Kay quote: ?...the best way to predict the future is to invent it.? The book by Catmull is the ?autobiography? of Pixar, a great example of inventing the future. I bought the book because of the focus on creativity, brought spectaculary to my attention by my mentor Vera John-Steiner with her book Creative Collaboration published 15 years back and revisited by Andy Blunden?s edited Collaborative Projects (with pieces by Vera and Greg Thompson). What struck me about Creativity, Inc. was how Vygotskian, how Mind in Society, the Pixar project was construed by Catmull. And thanks to the interconnecting threads on boundary objects, I see the socio-cultural themes in Catmull?s book even more strongly. Leadership is distributed. Henry > On Oct 16, 2015, at 12:21 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > Dough, your description makes sense to me, and it seems entirely in line with what has been discussed so far. Doing business analysis and developing business rules seem adequate glosses of what developers do. The link you provide (thanks!) leads to a quite technical progress report on a software innovation project. I guess that a possible and interesting research focus, and one that I assume several here pursue, is to investigate how these after-the-fact descriptions that constitute the "memory palace" that you mention, relate to the prior historical and actual situated work that orients the participants and opens new horizons to them in situ, for the first time. What material and ideal conditions allow them to move on and come up with this descriptions/products? > > Relating code objects, classes, etc. to the "fuzzier world of social interactions", as you write, really reminds me to Leigh Star's concerns on formal categories and the lived work/experiences of falling inside or outside of them; a theme developed, for example, in Star & Bowker 1997 in MCA, as well as in their papers describing "residual categories." > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Douglas Williams > Sent: 15 October 2015 07:58 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > I will hazard a comment here and note that what you are describing is what I think is usually described as performing "business analysis" and developing "business rules," which is another way of describing the kind of memory palace that developers construct from functional requests, observation, interviews, etc., so that they can relate specific code objects, classes and methods to the fuzzier world of social interactions, organizational interactions, and group intentions that you're designing an application to address. > > Business rules are a set of postulates and theories about the groups and interactions for which you are designing; it's a kind of applied social science. Negotiation, between developers approaching these groups and interactions from different areas, and between developers and users, is pretty continuous--especially with Agile development, in which you spend a lot of time by design in negotiation. The problems you solve may create other problems. The metaphors of interaction you use may be wrong. Certainly imagination enters into the process. To develop something really useful, you have to think beyond existing practices, which are often a compromise, to the user goal. With that goal in mind, you can ignore what is, and create something different that provides a better affordance to achieve that goal, or perhaps merge related superficial goals into a deeper common goal. And in the process of interaction, designers and users create systems of interaction that evolve both of their tribes. > > It's entirely possible I'm missing the point of what you're trying to get at, or I'm seeing it simplistically, but that's what comes to my mind. Alan Kay of Xerox PARC famously said "the best way to predict the future is to invent it." But you can't invent the future without spending a good deal of time observing systems as they are, and then trying to see where intention is thwarted by poor design, or blocked by unnecessary barriers. > > Along those lines, if I'm not entirely wrong, maybe this would be a useful reference. > > http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2011004_steps11.pdf > Doug > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:18 AM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > If I were to set gesture and orientation along a continuum, as Henry suggests, and if I wanted to do so without falling back into a dichotomy, I would bring Ryle and his warnings on the concept of mind, and I would remark that orientation is an achievement, not a process. Orienting, as a process verb, is something that takes movement (and therefore time) to get achieved. Thus, in every occasion that someone orients to something, that orienting exists in and as a gesture, a gaze, a word, or a variety of those together. Before you do orient, there is not yet an orientation. Perhaps a disposition to do so, and one which is not inside you but with goes along with your circumstances. So, a way to dissolve the dichotomy that is implied saying that orientation is cognitive and gesture is material (as if cognition was not material and gesture not cognitive) may be to admit that orienting (thinking, cognizing) takes gesture, and other material things, to be achieved. It is in this sense that I think that notions of movement, such as Dewey's "an experience," are useful to think of what is foundational about thinking. > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: 14 October 2015 19:09 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > Huw, > Does this work for you?: > Gesture as basically acting. Doing. > Orientation as basically thinking. Construal. > Gesture and orientation are construed as being on a continuum. > At the same time: Gesture is a proper subset of orientation. Alternativeky, orientation is ground for gesture. > Langacker construes grammar as symbolic in nature, with phonological space a subset of semantic space. Keeping in mind that semantic space, meaning, is contextual, both spatially and temporally. Gesture is prototypically material, indexical. Orientation is prototypically cognitive and affective. Yet there is no non-arbitrary division (dichotomy) between gesture and orientation. > > I think I am in way over my head regarding set theory, but do any of your ?trigger scenarios? fall into a trap of dichotomization, where the participants in a project push for a checklist of properties to determine what an object actually is, rather than admit to fuzziness of categories? The work of Rosch comes to mind. I am also thinking of scientific and practical concepts and an article by Peter Smagorinsky about those ideas. > > Tentatively, > Henry > > P.S. A vigorous nod to Peg and Huw regarding ?allos?, as in allophones. A great example of the the relationships between the concrete (phonetic realization of allophones) and the abstract (the phonemic unit that ?represents? the ?bundle? of allophones). The -etic and the -emic. Again, a continuum, rather than a simple dichotomy. I want to recognize that there are some lingusts who do not ascribe to phonemes at all, think that such an abstract representation is not required to model language, especially as it applies to the production and comprehension of language with computers. Again, over my head. > > > >> On Oct 14, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >> >> Huw, thanks a lot! Your experiences is very valuable for what I am looking at now, really. I'll definitively keep you posted on what I get up to. >> >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd >> Sent: 14 October 2015 17:50 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >> >> Alfredo, >> >> Regarding "how the situated work taking place during a shift of >> (computational) paradigm would differ", generalising from my experience I >> usually see a breakdown in communication and an approach is taken in which >> the program is inched forward, perhaps akin to tacking to a coastline. >> >> What was a reasonable strategy for a quick solution transforms over time >> into an abuse of the language, such as 20 files consisting of nested if >> statements that are several hundred lines long used to parse text files. >> >> Depending upon the experience, common trigger scenarios might be: >> >> Object oriented programming. >> Inversion of control (using frameworks) >> Multithreaded programming. >> Functional programming >> >> But even when the language constructs are well known there can be >> disagreements concerning other basic representational and orientational >> constructs, such as what an event is, whether an input is interior or >> exterior to an encapsulation, whether value objects or identity objects are >> used, and whether the problem domain is actually articulated in the >> software. >> >> Regarding gesture, I would say that gestures index orientation mediated by >> conscious goals. So I would agree that gesture, rather than mere wording, >> helps to orient. But I would tend to disagree that gesture is >> 'foundational'. For me, orientation is king. It would be interesting to >> see if you make something else of it. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> On 14 October 2015 at 15:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >> >>> Huw, >>> thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. The >>> software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained sense of >>> "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing paradigm. >>> Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them to be >>> able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being >>> designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just >>> (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also drawings, >>> gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there was >>> some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced makes >>> me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of >>> (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am >>> observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. >>> >>> Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported with >>> respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings attention >>> to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities (bodies). I >>> am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the >>> differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the work of >>> producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind of >>> situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend to >>> Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the >>> material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for >>> those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) that >>> both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift >>> involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to orienting >>> towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be >>> interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical >>> conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this >>> account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to >>> lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination >>> takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation alone, >>> it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the materials >>> offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of naming, >>> of using words. >>> >>> Alfredo >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of >>> HENRY SHONERD >>> Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>> >>> Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on >>> boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded naming? >>> I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated >>> movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be named. A >>> verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s >>> conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that >>> replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get >>> outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, >>> loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes when >>> operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst the >>> experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the >>> project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and >>> abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse >>> generally? That would provide nice praxis. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Henry >>> >>>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Alfredo, >>>> >>>> I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need qualification. >>>> Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with >>> to-be-designed >>>> artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of >>> things >>>> conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are >>>> usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly >>>> knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). >>>> >>>> Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational >>> paradigm >>>> would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the >>> dawning >>>> realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, >>> with >>>> respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft >>>> requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which >>> will >>>> be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. >>> being >>>> paid to get something built. >>>> >>>> Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate >>>> functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable >>>> establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you >>> may >>>> well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Huw >>>> >>>> On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Henry, all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a >>>>> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two >>>>> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet >>>>> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to >>> possibly >>>>> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one >>>>> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, >>> the >>>>> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but >>> which >>>>> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin >>> working >>>>> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen >>>>> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes >>> time >>>>> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" that >>> you >>>>> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, >>> very >>>>> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience of >>>>> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely >>> here. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: HENRY SHONERD >>>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker >>>>> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>>> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come >>> up >>>>> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As you >>>>> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I >>> can >>>>> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most >>>>> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability >>> of >>>>> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in >>> time >>>>> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" >>> ("irrealis"). >>>>> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on >>>>> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most people, >>> if >>>>> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. >>> Animals >>>>> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might >>> be >>>>> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I >>> would >>>>> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as the >>>>> spatial, with displacement. >>>>> >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Oct 16 13:40:28 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:40:28 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <0C6CC0D3-1320-4C41-A454-34B6D131DFCA@gmail.com> References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> <1444838646095.60751@iped.uio.no> <1445020095837.94572@iped.uio.no> <0C6CC0D3-1320-4C41-A454-34B6D131DFCA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56215f10.0941440a.f829b.6ebf@mx.google.com> Alfredo, henry, I appreciate your responses to my going with a metaphor that I felt more than realized explicitly. I will share a strong image that I awoke from a dream that expressed by play on boundary objects. The image of a pencil drawing lines and marking boundaries followed by the other end of the pencil [the eraser] erasing the lines the graphite was marking. I will say it was a deeply moving image and I hesitate to say more. fascinatingLarry Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: HENRY SHONERD Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 12:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA Larry, I also had read your post, but didn?t realize how generative your gravity metaphor was! I was more focused on what you said about play mimesis and affordances. After reading Alfredo?s response to your post, I got the following from Wikipedia?s ?gravity?: "Gravity is most accurately described by the general theory of relativity (proposed by Albert Einstein in 1915) which describes gravity, not as a force, but as a consequence of the curvature of spacetime caused by the uneven distribution of mass/energy; and resulting in time dilation , where time lapses more slowly in strong gravitation.? then further on: ?...gravity has a negligible influence on the behavior of sub-atomic particles, and plays no role in determining the internal properties of everyday matter (but see quantum gravity ). On the other hand, gravity is the dominant force at the macroscopic scale ?. Out on a limb, it seems to me that psychology and sociology parallel the micro/macro distinction in physics. And note the problems of reconciling relativity theory of Einstein with probabalistic quantum theory. In other words, physics seems to have had the same problems as social science in reconciling the micro and macro. Henry > On Oct 16, 2015, at 12:28 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > Larry, I just read your notes and wanted to thank you. There are so many interesting things that I would not know how to begin addressing them (though I hope I'll get the chance soon). But I wanted to let you know that I thoroughly enjoyed the way you move us through a sort of inter-stelar travel in your text. I really like the way you treat different traditions of thinking as gravitational fields, where notions such as "objects" make sense only as part of a larger arrangement of concepts and ideas/discourses. The travel you describe certainly touches into some of what we (or at least I) experience when we move across literatures to try to achieve coherent and pragmatically productive ways of approaching the study of human practices. And it also helped me to better see and appreciate (at least fragments of) what others had contributed in prior discussions in the thread. So, thanks for that! > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Larry Purss > Sent: 14 October 2015 18:55 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > I have been deeply engaged with the topic of boundary objects and notions > of orientation. > Here attached is a response. > It is rather long and this is why it is sent as an attachment. > I want to thank everyone for our shared voices. > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > >> Huw, thanks a lot! Your experiences is very valuable for what I am looking >> at now, really. I'll definitively keep you posted on what I get up to. >> >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Huw >> Lloyd >> Sent: 14 October 2015 17:50 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >> >> Alfredo, >> >> Regarding "how the situated work taking place during a shift of >> (computational) paradigm would differ", generalising from my experience I >> usually see a breakdown in communication and an approach is taken in which >> the program is inched forward, perhaps akin to tacking to a coastline. >> >> What was a reasonable strategy for a quick solution transforms over time >> into an abuse of the language, such as 20 files consisting of nested if >> statements that are several hundred lines long used to parse text files. >> >> Depending upon the experience, common trigger scenarios might be: >> >> Object oriented programming. >> Inversion of control (using frameworks) >> Multithreaded programming. >> Functional programming >> >> But even when the language constructs are well known there can be >> disagreements concerning other basic representational and orientational >> constructs, such as what an event is, whether an input is interior or >> exterior to an encapsulation, whether value objects or identity objects are >> used, and whether the problem domain is actually articulated in the >> software. >> >> Regarding gesture, I would say that gestures index orientation mediated by >> conscious goals. So I would agree that gesture, rather than mere wording, >> helps to orient. But I would tend to disagree that gesture is >> 'foundational'. For me, orientation is king. It would be interesting to >> see if you make something else of it. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> On 14 October 2015 at 15:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >> >>> Huw, >>> thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. The >>> software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained sense >> of >>> "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing paradigm. >>> Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them to >> be >>> able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being >>> designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just >>> (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also >> drawings, >>> gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there was >>> some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced >> makes >>> me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of >>> (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am >>> observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. >>> >>> Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported >> with >>> respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings >> attention >>> to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities (bodies). >> I >>> am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the >>> differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the work >> of >>> producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind >> of >>> situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend to >>> Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the >>> material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for >>> those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) >> that >>> both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift >>> involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to orienting >>> towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be >>> interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical >>> conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this >>> account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to >>> lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination >>> takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation >> alone, >>> it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the >> materials >>> offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of >> naming, >>> of using words. >>> >>> Alfredo >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of >>> HENRY SHONERD >>> Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>> >>> Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on >>> boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded >> naming? >>> I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated >>> movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be named. >> A >>> verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s >>> conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that >>> replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get >>> outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, >>> loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes >> when >>> operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst >> the >>> experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the >>> project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and >>> abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse >>> generally? That would provide nice praxis. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Henry >>> >>>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Alfredo, >>>> >>>> I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need >> qualification. >>>> Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with >>> to-be-designed >>>> artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of >>> things >>>> conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are >>>> usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly >>>> knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). >>>> >>>> Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational >>> paradigm >>>> would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the >>> dawning >>>> realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, >>> with >>>> respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft >>>> requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which >>> will >>>> be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. >>> being >>>> paid to get something built. >>>> >>>> Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate >>>> functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable >>>> establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you >>> may >>>> well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Huw >>>> >>>> On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Henry, all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a >>>>> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two >>>>> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet >>>>> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to >>> possibly >>>>> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one >>>>> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, >>> the >>>>> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but >>> which >>>>> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin >>> working >>>>> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen >>>>> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes >>> time >>>>> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" >> that >>> you >>>>> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, >>> very >>>>> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience >> of >>>>> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely >>> here. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: HENRY SHONERD >>>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker >>>>> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>>> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come >>> up >>>>> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As >> you >>>>> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I >>> can >>>>> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most >>>>> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability >>> of >>>>> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in >>> time >>>>> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" >>> ("irrealis"). >>>>> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on >>>>> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most >> people, >>> if >>>>> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. >>> Animals >>>>> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might >>> be >>>>> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I >>> would >>>>> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as >> the >>>>> spatial, with displacement. >>>>> >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Oct 16 13:36:57 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 21:36:57 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <0C6CC0D3-1320-4C41-A454-34B6D131DFCA@gmail.com> References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> <1444838646095.60751@iped.uio.no> <1445020095837.94572@iped.uio.no> <0C6CC0D3-1320-4C41-A454-34B6D131DFCA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Henry, You might like Kurt Lewin's 1931 paper, "The Conflict Between Aristotelian and Galileian Modes of Thought in Contemporary Psychology". First link I found here . Best, Huw On 16 October 2015 at 20:56, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Larry, > I also had read your post, but didn?t realize how generative your gravity > metaphor was! I was more focused on what you said about play mimesis and > affordances. After reading Alfredo?s response to your post, I got the > following from Wikipedia?s ?gravity?: > > "Gravity is most accurately described by the general theory of relativity < > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_theory_of_relativity> (proposed by > Albert Einstein in 1915) > which describes gravity, not as a force, but as a consequence of the > curvature of spacetime caused > by the uneven distribution of mass/energy; and resulting in time dilation < > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation>, where time lapses more > slowly in strong gravitation.? > > then further on: > > ?...gravity has a negligible influence on the behavior of sub-atomic > particles, and plays no role in determining the internal properties of > everyday matter (but see quantum gravity < > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gravity>). On the other hand, > gravity is the dominant force at the macroscopic scale < > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macroscopic_scale>?. > > Out on a limb, it seems to me that psychology and sociology parallel the > micro/macro distinction in physics. And note the problems of reconciling > relativity theory of Einstein with probabalistic quantum theory. In other > words, physics seems to have had the same problems as social science in > reconciling the micro and macro. > > Henry > > > > > > On Oct 16, 2015, at 12:28 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > > Larry, I just read your notes and wanted to thank you. There are so many > interesting things that I would not know how to begin addressing them > (though I hope I'll get the chance soon). But I wanted to let you know that > I thoroughly enjoyed the way you move us through a sort of inter-stelar > travel in your text. I really like the way you treat different traditions > of thinking as gravitational fields, where notions such as "objects" make > sense only as part of a larger arrangement of concepts and > ideas/discourses. The travel you describe certainly touches into some of > what we (or at least I) experience when we move across literatures to try > to achieve coherent and pragmatically productive ways of approaching the > study of human practices. And it also helped me to better see and > appreciate (at least fragments of) what others had contributed in prior > discussions in the thread. So, thanks for that! > > > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of > Larry Purss > > Sent: 14 October 2015 18:55 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > > > I have been deeply engaged with the topic of boundary objects and notions > > of orientation. > > Here attached is a response. > > It is rather long and this is why it is sent as an attachment. > > I want to thank everyone for our shared voices. > > > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > wrote: > > > >> Huw, thanks a lot! Your experiences is very valuable for what I am > looking > >> at now, really. I'll definitively keep you posted on what I get up to. > >> > >> Alfredo > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> on behalf of > Huw > >> Lloyd > >> Sent: 14 October 2015 17:50 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > >> > >> Alfredo, > >> > >> Regarding "how the situated work taking place during a shift of > >> (computational) paradigm would differ", generalising from my experience > I > >> usually see a breakdown in communication and an approach is taken in > which > >> the program is inched forward, perhaps akin to tacking to a coastline. > >> > >> What was a reasonable strategy for a quick solution transforms over time > >> into an abuse of the language, such as 20 files consisting of nested if > >> statements that are several hundred lines long used to parse text files. > >> > >> Depending upon the experience, common trigger scenarios might be: > >> > >> Object oriented programming. > >> Inversion of control (using frameworks) > >> Multithreaded programming. > >> Functional programming > >> > >> But even when the language constructs are well known there can be > >> disagreements concerning other basic representational and orientational > >> constructs, such as what an event is, whether an input is interior or > >> exterior to an encapsulation, whether value objects or identity objects > are > >> used, and whether the problem domain is actually articulated in the > >> software. > >> > >> Regarding gesture, I would say that gestures index orientation mediated > by > >> conscious goals. So I would agree that gesture, rather than mere > wording, > >> helps to orient. But I would tend to disagree that gesture is > >> 'foundational'. For me, orientation is king. It would be interesting > to > >> see if you make something else of it. > >> > >> Best, > >> Huw > >> > >> > >> On 14 October 2015 at 15:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Huw, > >>> thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. > The > >>> software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained > sense > >> of > >>> "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing > paradigm. > >>> Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them > to > >> be > >>> able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being > >>> designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just > >>> (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also > >> drawings, > >>> gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there > was > >>> some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced > >> makes > >>> me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of > >>> (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am > >>> observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. > >>> > >>> Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported > >> with > >>> respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings > >> attention > >>> to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities > (bodies). > >> I > >>> am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the > >>> differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the > work > >> of > >>> producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind > >> of > >>> situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend > to > >>> Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the > >>> material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for > >>> those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) > >> that > >>> both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift > >>> involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to > orienting > >>> towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be > >>> interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical > >>> conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this > >>> account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need > to > >>> lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination > >>> takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation > >> alone, > >>> it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the > >> materials > >>> offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of > >> naming, > >>> of using words. > >>> > >>> Alfredo > >>> ________________________________________ > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>> on behalf of > >>> HENRY SHONERD > >>> Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > >>> > >>> Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on > >>> boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded > >> naming? > >>> I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated > >>> movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be > named. > >> A > >>> verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s > >>> conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those > that > >>> replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get > >>> outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, > >>> loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes > >> when > >>> operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst > >> the > >>> experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume > the > >>> project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and > >>> abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in > discourse > >>> generally? That would provide nice praxis. > >>> > >>> Respectfully, > >>> Henry > >>> > >>>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Alfredo, > >>>> > >>>> I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need > >> qualification. > >>>> Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with > >>> to-be-designed > >>>> artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of > >>> things > >>>> conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are > >>>> usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly > >>>> knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). > >>>> > >>>> Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational > >>> paradigm > >>>> would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the > >>> dawning > >>>> realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, > >>> with > >>>> respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft > >>>> requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which > >>> will > >>>> be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. > >>> being > >>>> paid to get something built. > >>>> > >>>> Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate > >>>> functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable > >>>> establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you > >>> may > >>>> well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. > >>>> > >>>> Best, > >>>> Huw > >>>> > >>>> On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Henry, all, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in > a > >>>>> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two > >>>>> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet > >>>>> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to > >>> possibly > >>>>> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since > one > >>>>> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. > So, > >>> the > >>>>> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but > >>> which > >>>>> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin > >>> working > >>>>> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen > >>>>> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes > >>> time > >>>>> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" > >> that > >>> you > >>>>> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, > >>> very > >>>>> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience > >> of > >>>>> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely > >>> here. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Alfredo > >>>>> > >>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>> From: HENRY SHONERD > >>>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 > >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > >>>>> > >>>>> Mike, > >>>>> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might > "...come > >>> up > >>>>> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As > >> you > >>>>> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that > I > >>> can > >>>>> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most > >>>>> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the > ability > >>> of > >>>>> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed > in > >>> time > >>>>> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" > >>> ("irrealis"). > >>>>> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on > >>>>> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most > >> people, > >>> if > >>>>> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. > >>> Animals > >>>>> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It > might > >>> be > >>>>> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I > >>> would > >>>>> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as > >> the > >>>>> spatial, with displacement. > >>>>> > >>>>> Henry > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Oct 16 16:12:03 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:12:03 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: <56215f10.0941440a.f829b.6ebf@mx.google.com> References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> <1444838646095.60751@iped.uio.no> <1445020095837.94572@iped.uio.no> <0C6CC0D3-1320-4C41-A454-34B6D131DFCA@gmail.com> <56215f10.0941440a.f829b.6ebf@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Larry, Excellent! Dreams. Surely they didn?t drop out of psychology when Freud dropped out of favor? Here you are sharing a dream with me and the others. Does that make the dreaming distributed? Would Greg T. have something to say from an anthropological perspective? It?s all I can do to not add ?dreamtime? to the subject line. Henry > On Oct 16, 2015, at 2:40 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > Alfredo, henry, > I appreciate your responses to my going with a metaphor that I felt more than realized explicitly. I will share a strong image that I awoke from a dream that expressed by play on boundary objects. The image of a pencil drawing lines and marking boundaries followed by the other end of the pencil [the eraser] erasing the lines the graphite was marking. I will say it was a deeply moving image and I hesitate to say more. > fascinatingLarry > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > From: HENRY SHONERD > Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 12:59 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > > Larry, > I also had read your post, but didn?t realize how generative your gravity metaphor was! I was more focused on what you said about play mimesis and affordances. After reading Alfredo?s response to your post, I got the following from Wikipedia?s ?gravity?: > > "Gravity is most accurately described by the general theory of relativity > (proposed by Albert Einstein > in 1915) which describes gravity, not as a force, but as a consequence of the curvature of spacetime > caused by the uneven distribution of mass/energy; and resulting in time dilation >, where time lapses more slowly in strong gravitation.? > > then further on: > > ?...gravity has a negligible influence on the behavior of sub-atomic particles, and plays no role in determining the internal properties of everyday matter (but see quantum gravity >). On the other hand, gravity is the dominant force at the macroscopic scale >?. > > Out on a limb, it seems to me that psychology and sociology parallel the micro/macro distinction in physics. And note the problems of reconciling relativity theory of Einstein with probabalistic quantum theory. In other words, physics seems to have had the same problems as social science in reconciling the micro and macro. > > Henry > > > > > > On Oct 16, 2015, at 12:28 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > > Larry, I just read your notes and wanted to thank you. There are so many interesting things that I would not know how to begin addressing them (though I hope I'll get the chance soon). But I wanted to let you know that I thoroughly enjoyed the way you move us through a sort of inter-stelar travel in your text. I really like the way you treat different traditions of thinking as gravitational fields, where notions such as "objects" make sense only as part of a larger arrangement of concepts and ideas/discourses. The travel you describe certainly touches into some of what we (or at least I) experience when we move across literatures to try to achieve coherent and pragmatically productive ways of approaching the study of human practices. And it also helped me to better see and appreciate (at least fragments of) what others had contributed in prior discussions in the thread. So, thanks for that! > > > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Larry Purss > > > Sent: 14 October 2015 18:55 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > > > > I have been deeply engaged with the topic of boundary objects and notions > > of orientation. > > Here attached is a response. > > It is rather long and this is why it is sent as an attachment. > > I want to thank everyone for our shared voices. > > > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > wrote: > > > >> Huw, thanks a lot! Your experiences is very valuable for what I am looking > >> at now, really. I'll definitively keep you posted on what I get up to. > >> > >> Alfredo > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> > on behalf of Huw > >> Lloyd > > >> Sent: 14 October 2015 17:50 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > >> > >> Alfredo, > >> > >> Regarding "how the situated work taking place during a shift of > >> (computational) paradigm would differ", generalising from my experience I > >> usually see a breakdown in communication and an approach is taken in which > >> the program is inched forward, perhaps akin to tacking to a coastline. > >> > >> What was a reasonable strategy for a quick solution transforms over time > >> into an abuse of the language, such as 20 files consisting of nested if > >> statements that are several hundred lines long used to parse text files. > >> > >> Depending upon the experience, common trigger scenarios might be: > >> > >> Object oriented programming. > >> Inversion of control (using frameworks) > >> Multithreaded programming. > >> Functional programming > >> > >> But even when the language constructs are well known there can be > >> disagreements concerning other basic representational and orientational > >> constructs, such as what an event is, whether an input is interior or > >> exterior to an encapsulation, whether value objects or identity objects are > >> used, and whether the problem domain is actually articulated in the > >> software. > >> > >> Regarding gesture, I would say that gestures index orientation mediated by > >> conscious goals. So I would agree that gesture, rather than mere wording, > >> helps to orient. But I would tend to disagree that gesture is > >> 'foundational'. For me, orientation is king. It would be interesting to > >> see if you make something else of it. > >> > >> Best, > >> Huw > >> > >> > >> On 14 October 2015 at 15:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Huw, > >>> thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. The > >>> software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained sense > >> of > >>> "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing paradigm. > >>> Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them to > >> be > >>> able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being > >>> designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just > >>> (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also > >> drawings, > >>> gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there was > >>> some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced > >> makes > >>> me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of > >>> (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am > >>> observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. > >>> > >>> Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported > >> with > >>> respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings > >> attention > >>> to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities (bodies). > >> I > >>> am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the > >>> differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the work > >> of > >>> producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind > >> of > >>> situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend to > >>> Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the > >>> material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for > >>> those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) > >> that > >>> both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift > >>> involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to orienting > >>> towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be > >>> interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical > >>> conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this > >>> account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need to > >>> lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination > >>> takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation > >> alone, > >>> it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the > >> materials > >>> offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of > >> naming, > >>> of using words. > >>> > >>> Alfredo > >>> ________________________________________ > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>> > on behalf of > >>> HENRY SHONERD > > >>> Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > >>> > >>> Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on > >>> boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded > >> naming? > >>> I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated > >>> movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be named. > >> A > >>> verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s > >>> conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those that > >>> replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get > >>> outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, > >>> loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes > >> when > >>> operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst > >> the > >>> experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume the > >>> project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and > >>> abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in discourse > >>> generally? That would provide nice praxis. > >>> > >>> Respectfully, > >>> Henry > >>> > >>>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd > > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Alfredo, > >>>> > >>>> I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need > >> qualification. > >>>> Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with > >>> to-be-designed > >>>> artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of > >>> things > >>>> conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are > >>>> usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly > >>>> knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). > >>>> > >>>> Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational > >>> paradigm > >>>> would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the > >>> dawning > >>>> realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, > >>> with > >>>> respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft > >>>> requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which > >>> will > >>>> be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. > >>> being > >>>> paid to get something built. > >>>> > >>>> Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate > >>>> functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable > >>>> establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you > >>> may > >>>> well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. > >>>> > >>>> Best, > >>>> Huw > >>>> > >>>> On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Henry, all, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in a > >>>>> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two > >>>>> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet > >>>>> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to > >>> possibly > >>>>> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since one > >>>>> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. So, > >>> the > >>>>> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but > >>> which > >>>>> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin > >>> working > >>>>> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen > >>>>> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes > >>> time > >>>>> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" > >> that > >>> you > >>>>> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, > >>> very > >>>>> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience > >> of > >>>>> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely > >>> here. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Alfredo > >>>>> > >>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>> From: HENRY SHONERD > > >>>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 > >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA > >>>>> > >>>>> Mike, > >>>>> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might "...come > >>> up > >>>>> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As > >> you > >>>>> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that I > >>> can > >>>>> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most > >>>>> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the ability > >>> of > >>>>> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed in > >>> time > >>>>> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" > >>> ("irrealis"). > >>>>> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on > >>>>> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most > >> people, > >>> if > >>>>> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. > >>> Animals > >>>>> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It might > >>> be > >>>>> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I > >>> would > >>>>> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as > >> the > >>>>> spatial, with displacement. > >>>>> > >>>>> Henry > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Oct 16 16:17:51 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:17:51 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <1444751912409.24119@iped.uio.no> <0C5654FA-3AAF-4AEA-A156-3808B375732B@gmail.com> <1444774136230.82637@iped.uio.no> <1BB9B265-AF53-4F36-8811-C0C439D63335@gmail.com> <1444833840529.39157@iped.uio.no> <1444838646095.60751@iped.uio.no> <1445020095837.94572@iped.uio.no> <0C6CC0D3-1320-4C41-A454-34B6D131DFCA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51598990-2F23-4987-88FF-61D8C9AA9793@gmail.com> Huw, I know I?m gonna like what you sent! The little I know of Lewin makes me think he is a big deal in both socio-cultural circles and neurological circles as well. Did Luria and Lewin know each other? Hmm? Henry > On Oct 16, 2015, at 2:36 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > Hi Henry, > > You might like Kurt Lewin's 1931 paper, "The Conflict Between Aristotelian > and Galileian Modes of Thought in Contemporary Psychology". > > First link I found here > > . > > Best, > Huw > > On 16 October 2015 at 20:56, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Larry, >> I also had read your post, but didn?t realize how generative your gravity >> metaphor was! I was more focused on what you said about play mimesis and >> affordances. After reading Alfredo?s response to your post, I got the >> following from Wikipedia?s ?gravity?: >> >> "Gravity is most accurately described by the general theory of relativity < >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_theory_of_relativity> (proposed by >> Albert Einstein in 1915) >> which describes gravity, not as a force, but as a consequence of the >> curvature of spacetime caused >> by the uneven distribution of mass/energy; and resulting in time dilation < >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation>, where time lapses more >> slowly in strong gravitation.? >> >> then further on: >> >> ?...gravity has a negligible influence on the behavior of sub-atomic >> particles, and plays no role in determining the internal properties of >> everyday matter (but see quantum gravity < >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gravity>). On the other hand, >> gravity is the dominant force at the macroscopic scale < >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macroscopic_scale>?. >> >> Out on a limb, it seems to me that psychology and sociology parallel the >> micro/macro distinction in physics. And note the problems of reconciling >> relativity theory of Einstein with probabalistic quantum theory. In other >> words, physics seems to have had the same problems as social science in >> reconciling the micro and macro. >> >> Henry >> >> >> >> >>> On Oct 16, 2015, at 12:28 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >>> >>> Larry, I just read your notes and wanted to thank you. There are so many >> interesting things that I would not know how to begin addressing them >> (though I hope I'll get the chance soon). But I wanted to let you know that >> I thoroughly enjoyed the way you move us through a sort of inter-stelar >> travel in your text. I really like the way you treat different traditions >> of thinking as gravitational fields, where notions such as "objects" make >> sense only as part of a larger arrangement of concepts and >> ideas/discourses. The travel you describe certainly touches into some of >> what we (or at least I) experience when we move across literatures to try >> to achieve coherent and pragmatically productive ways of approaching the >> study of human practices. And it also helped me to better see and >> appreciate (at least fragments of) what others had contributed in prior >> discussions in the thread. So, thanks for that! >>> >>> Alfredo >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of >> Larry Purss >>> Sent: 14 October 2015 18:55 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>> >>> I have been deeply engaged with the topic of boundary objects and notions >>> of orientation. >>> Here attached is a response. >>> It is rather long and this is why it is sent as an attachment. >>> I want to thank everyone for our shared voices. >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Huw, thanks a lot! Your experiences is very valuable for what I am >> looking >>>> at now, really. I'll definitively keep you posted on what I get up to. >>>> >>>> Alfredo >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> on behalf of >> Huw >>>> Lloyd >>>> Sent: 14 October 2015 17:50 >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>>> >>>> Alfredo, >>>> >>>> Regarding "how the situated work taking place during a shift of >>>> (computational) paradigm would differ", generalising from my experience >> I >>>> usually see a breakdown in communication and an approach is taken in >> which >>>> the program is inched forward, perhaps akin to tacking to a coastline. >>>> >>>> What was a reasonable strategy for a quick solution transforms over time >>>> into an abuse of the language, such as 20 files consisting of nested if >>>> statements that are several hundred lines long used to parse text files. >>>> >>>> Depending upon the experience, common trigger scenarios might be: >>>> >>>> Object oriented programming. >>>> Inversion of control (using frameworks) >>>> Multithreaded programming. >>>> Functional programming >>>> >>>> But even when the language constructs are well known there can be >>>> disagreements concerning other basic representational and orientational >>>> constructs, such as what an event is, whether an input is interior or >>>> exterior to an encapsulation, whether value objects or identity objects >> are >>>> used, and whether the problem domain is actually articulated in the >>>> software. >>>> >>>> Regarding gesture, I would say that gestures index orientation mediated >> by >>>> conscious goals. So I would agree that gesture, rather than mere >> wording, >>>> helps to orient. But I would tend to disagree that gesture is >>>> 'foundational'. For me, orientation is king. It would be interesting >> to >>>> see if you make something else of it. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Huw >>>> >>>> >>>> On 14 October 2015 at 15:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Huw, >>>>> thanks for the reflection, it brings a very interesting distinction. >> The >>>>> software developers case that I mentioned is more on the contained >> sense >>>> of >>>>> "unknown", as you mentioned, not involving a shift of computing >> paradigm. >>>>> Yet I could observe lots of work performed by the developers for them >> to >>>> be >>>>> able to do intelligible enough reference to the feature thereby being >>>>> designed. This work, which I glossed as "naming", included not just >>>>> (technical, specialized) names already familiar to them, but also >>>> drawings, >>>>> gesturing, and performance. So, the words were not enough, and there >> was >>>>> some form of imagination going on. So the distinction you introduced >>>> makes >>>>> me wonder how the situated work taking place during a shift of >>>>> (computational) paradigm would differ with respect to the one that I am >>>>> observing, that is, involving only a "minor" innovation. >>>>> >>>>> Henry's connection with the moving from verb to noun that we reported >>>> with >>>>> respect to boundary objects is interesting here because it brings >>>> attention >>>>> to objects (materials) and their relation to our sensitivities >> (bodies). >>>> I >>>>> am thinking if this connection might be of help to understand the >>>>> differences between the work that minor innovations involve and the >> work >>>> of >>>>> producing major paradigm shifts. Perhaps, more than a shift in the kind >>>> of >>>>> situated social interactions that we observe, we should (again) attend >> to >>>>> Latour's discussion on inter-objectivity, and see how the >>>>> material-historical arrangements in the setting set the conditions for >>>>> those shifts to occur. At the level of interaction, I can imagine (!) >>>> that >>>>> both going through a minor innovation and going through a major shift >>>>> involve some movement from not being aware of a possibility to >> orienting >>>>> towards that very possibility. Studying differences there would be >>>>> interesting. But I guess that the key lies in the prior historical >>>>> conditions for the innovation/shift to emerge. Imagination may, in this >>>>> account, be a form of perceiving things that, to be so perceived, need >> to >>>>> lend themselves to those perceptions and apprehensions. If imagination >>>>> takes place first as performative work, and not as mental operation >>>> alone, >>>>> it needs to rely upon the possibilities of manipulation that the >>>> materials >>>>> offer. And those possibilities, of course, include possibilities of >>>> naming, >>>>> of using words. >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> on behalf of >>>>> HENRY SHONERD >>>>> Sent: 14 October 2015 01:38 >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>>>> >>>>> Do I recall (and understand) correctly Alfredo?s and Rod?s article (on >>>>> boundary objects and building museum spaces) that gesture preceded >>>> naming? >>>>> I mean that the boundary object started as collaborative/coordinated >>>>> movement. It was a perfomance before it was a thing that could be >> named. >>>> A >>>>> verb before it was a noun. And does this have anything to do with Huw?s >>>>> conjecture about a continuum of kinds of projects, at one end those >> that >>>>> replicate (with minimal creativity) and, at the other, those that ?get >>>>> outside the box?? Academic discourse tends to be very nouny, Latinate, >>>>> loaded with bound morphemes. Such discourse serves important purposes >>>> when >>>>> operating on the generalization and abstraction side of things, amongst >>>> the >>>>> experts. But boundary objects (as observed by Alfredo and Rod) assume >> the >>>>> project members are strangers to one another?s way of generalizing and >>>>> abstracting. Could gesture then be ?rising to the concrete? in >> discourse >>>>> generally? That would provide nice praxis. >>>>> >>>>> Respectfully, >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Huw Lloyd >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Alfredo, >>>>>> >>>>>> I suspect the quality of the unknown thing here would need >>>> qualification. >>>>>> Experienced practitioners in software are often dealing with >>>>> to-be-designed >>>>>> artefacts, although these mostly fall into a more minor category of >>>>> things >>>>>> conforming to well-known conceptions or abstractions, hence they are >>>>>> usually only unknown in a rather contained sense (a bit like roughly >>>>>> knowing what kind of model you need to build out of lego). >>>>>> >>>>>> Contrary to this, computing problems entailing a new computational >>>>> paradigm >>>>>> would certainly throw such programmers into a genuine unknown (the >>>>> dawning >>>>>> realisation that one is working with a different kind of kit). Also, >>>>> with >>>>>> respect to requirements, the real unknowns are usually the soft >>>>>> requirements on agreeing what the problem is in the first place, which >>>>> will >>>>>> be largely governed by the social situation of said programmers, i.e. >>>>> being >>>>>> paid to get something built. >>>>>> >>>>>> Naming is very important in software in order to try to communicate >>>>>> functional intent, hence practitioners would no doubt be comfortable >>>>>> establishing agreement about naming before moving on. Nonetheless you >>>>> may >>>>>> well be identifying some form of design mediation at play too. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Huw >>>>>> >>>>>> On 13 October 2015 at 23:08, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Henry, all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am at this moment going through a video database on design work in >> a >>>>>>> software development company, and, observing a discussion between two >>>>>>> developers who talk about features of the software that are not yet >>>>>>> developed, but which could be, ??the insight came upon me that, to >>>>> possibly >>>>>>> create anything together (and there is no other way to do it since >> one >>>>>>> alone has not the tools/competence to do it), they had to name it. >> So, >>>>> the >>>>>>> developers were talking about something that does not yet exist but >>>>> which >>>>>>> nonetheless needs to be referred to in order for them to even begin >>>>> working >>>>>>> on it. And naming something that does not yet exits does not happen >>>>>>> immediately, because they do not have a name for it. Naming it takes >>>>> time >>>>>>> and space, that is, work. So, I think the notion of "displacement" >>>> that >>>>> you >>>>>>> mention, if it captures this work that talking does to the imagining, >>>>> very >>>>>>> relevant to what I am witnessing in my data. And, given the salience >>>> of >>>>>>> "place making" in the thread, the term "disPLACEment" may be timely >>>>> here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>> From: HENRY SHONERD >>>>>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:34 >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Cc: Alfredo Jornet Gil; Rolf Steier; Geoffrey C. Bowker >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Reflective Discourse on XMCA >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike, >>>>>>> In your original post on Oct 10, you suggested that we might >> "...come >>>>> up >>>>>>> with a deeper understanding of the interlocking issues involved". As >>>> you >>>>>>> say, each chatter will have their own response to that. Mine is that >> I >>>>> can >>>>>>> relate the three issues to displacement, which is arguably the most >>>>>>> important property of language as a semiotic system. It is the >> ability >>>>> of >>>>>>> with language to refer to and construe aspects of the world removed >> in >>>>> time >>>>>>> and place (from the here and now) and to the "make believe" >>>>> ("irrealis"). >>>>>>> I was reminded of this on re-reading an article by Bruno Latour on >>>>>>> Interobjectivity that Greg Thompson posted back on Aug 18. Most >>>> people, >>>>> if >>>>>>> asked, think of language primarily as something for communication. >>>>> Animals >>>>>>> communicate, but, as far as we know, do not displace. (Though It >> might >>>>> be >>>>>>> argued that animals do a better job of communicating than people.!) I >>>>> would >>>>>>> like to emphasize the importance of the temporal domain, as well as >>>> the >>>>>>> spatial, with displacement. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Oct 18 20:07:23 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 20:07:23 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving Message-ID: I found a segment of the American weekly TV program, 60 minutes, more than usually interesting this evening, and one segment in particular seemed to have a lot of relevance to many different interests of people on xmca. The topic was the the activities of the "Make a Wish Foundation." Of the very many issues that the program discusses, one which I found particularly interesting was the ability of the organized practice of communities raising money to give seriously ill children "a last wish" is one that has particular relevance to questions about the mechanisms of social solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, a relatively poor and out of the part of the US, people raise amazing amounts of money to provide special experience for kids who are dying of some disease that has not known current cure. What particularly caught my attention especially is the powerful effect that participation in the money raising and the ingenious social organization of the activities, has on community members across several generations, from peers to grandparents. In one sense, it seems that everything is so focuses on the individual kid that it is "just a manifestation of late capitalist individualism." If effects on the kids is interesting, but it is the reflected effect on the community pretty generally, and the emergence of strong personal bonds in particular that caught me most. Andy might find this interesting as an example of a project. mike http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ click on make a wish -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From ablunden@mira.net Sun Oct 18 20:58:26 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 14:58:26 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and developing an alternative concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a suitable unit of analysis was how I got started down the track I have been on ever since then, about 2003. What is the difference between community as in all people living in such and such town, and "real" community? Robert Putnam had assembled evidence that almost any collective activity fosters what he called "social capital." The problem was that he couldn't distinguish between the mafia taking root in a community and a community taking control of crime on its streets, etc. His classic "example" activity was the formation of choir groups, proven promoters of collective "wealth". Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > I found a segment of the American weekly TV program, 60 minutes, more than > usually interesting this evening, and one segment in particular > seemed to have a lot of relevance to many different interests of people on > xmca. The topic was the the activities of the "Make a Wish Foundation." > > Of the very many issues that the program discusses, one which I found > particularly interesting was the ability of the organized practice of > communities > raising money to give seriously ill children "a last wish" is one that has > particular relevance to questions about the mechanisms of social > solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, a relatively poor and out > of the part of the US, people raise amazing amounts of money to provide > special experience for kids who are dying of some disease that has not > known current cure. What particularly caught my attention especially is the > powerful effect that participation in the money raising and the ingenious > social organization of the activities, has on community members across > several generations, from peers to grandparents. In one sense, it seems > that everything is so focuses on the individual kid that it is "just a > manifestation of late capitalist individualism." If effects on the kids is > interesting, but it is the reflected effect on the community pretty > generally, and the emergence of strong personal bonds in particular that > caught me most. > > Andy might find this interesting as an example of a project. > > mike > > http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ click on make a wish > From daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com Mon Oct 19 03:51:42 2015 From: daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com (Daniel Hyman) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 06:51:42 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> Message-ID: Deal all, Naturally the mention of choral groups caught this musician's eye, and ear. Boix and Posner's article, http://dev.wcfia.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/96-04.pdf gives a highly readable overview of Putnam's "Making Democracy Work." Though I personally would quibble with the assertion that choristers do not go out on a limb for one another; if the music is challenging enough, that may often be the case. Cheers, Daniel On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 11:58 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and developing an alternative > concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a suitable unit of > analysis was how I got started down the track I have been on ever since > then, about 2003. What is the difference between community as in all people > living in such and such town, and "real" community? Robert Putnam had > assembled evidence that almost any collective activity fosters what he > called "social capital." The problem was that he couldn't distinguish > between the mafia taking root in a community and a community taking control > of crime on its streets, etc. His classic "example" activity was the > formation of choir groups, proven promoters of collective "wealth". > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> I found a segment of the American weekly TV program, 60 minutes, more than >> usually interesting this evening, and one segment in particular >> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many different interests of people on >> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the "Make a Wish Foundation." >> >> Of the very many issues that the program discusses, one which I found >> particularly interesting was the ability of the organized practice of >> communities >> raising money to give seriously ill children "a last wish" is one that has >> particular relevance to questions about the mechanisms of social >> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, a relatively poor and out >> of the part of the US, people raise amazing amounts of money to provide >> special experience for kids who are dying of some disease that has not >> known current cure. What particularly caught my attention especially is >> the >> powerful effect that participation in the money raising and the ingenious >> social organization of the activities, has on community members across >> several generations, from peers to grandparents. In one sense, it seems >> that everything is so focuses on the individual kid that it is "just a >> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." If effects on the kids is >> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on the community pretty >> generally, and the emergence of strong personal bonds in particular that >> caught me most. >> >> Andy might find this interesting as an example of a project. >> >> mike >> >> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ click on make a >> wish >> >> > From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Oct 19 08:23:56 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 08:23:56 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy & David Delighted to discuss choirs and adding that summary of Putnam is a gift, thanks. But I believe the make a wish story is worth the time to watch, as I said. I got a note from a colleague in South America who said 60 minutes was not available. To be clear, the program segment is on the Internet at. Cbsnews.com, or at least it is available on my iPad this morning. Feedback appreciated if anyone has the time. Mike On Monday, October 19, 2015, Daniel Hyman wrote: > Deal all, > > Naturally the mention of choral groups caught this musician's eye, and ear. > Boix and Posner's article, > http://dev.wcfia.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/96-04.pdf gives a highly > readable overview of Putnam's "Making Democracy Work." Though I personally > would quibble with the assertion that choristers do not go out on a limb > for one another; if the music is challenging enough, that may often be the > case. > > Cheers, > > Daniel > > On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 11:58 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > > Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and developing an alternative > > concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a suitable unit of > > analysis was how I got started down the track I have been on ever since > > then, about 2003. What is the difference between community as in all > people > > living in such and such town, and "real" community? Robert Putnam had > > assembled evidence that almost any collective activity fosters what he > > called "social capital." The problem was that he couldn't distinguish > > between the mafia taking root in a community and a community taking > control > > of crime on its streets, etc. His classic "example" activity was the > > formation of choir groups, proven promoters of collective "wealth". > > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> I found a segment of the American weekly TV program, 60 minutes, more > than > >> usually interesting this evening, and one segment in particular > >> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many different interests of people > on > >> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the "Make a Wish Foundation." > >> > >> Of the very many issues that the program discusses, one which I found > >> particularly interesting was the ability of the organized practice of > >> communities > >> raising money to give seriously ill children "a last wish" is one that > has > >> particular relevance to questions about the mechanisms of social > >> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, a relatively poor and > out > >> of the part of the US, people raise amazing amounts of money to provide > >> special experience for kids who are dying of some disease that has not > >> known current cure. What particularly caught my attention especially is > >> the > >> powerful effect that participation in the money raising and the > ingenious > >> social organization of the activities, has on community members across > >> several generations, from peers to grandparents. In one sense, it seems > >> that everything is so focuses on the individual kid that it is "just a > >> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." If effects on the kids > is > >> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on the community pretty > >> generally, and the emergence of strong personal bonds in particular that > >> caught me most. > >> > >> Andy might find this interesting as an example of a project. > >> > >> mike > >> > >> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ click on make a > >> wish > >> > >> > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From lemke.jay@gmail.com Mon Oct 19 09:13:49 2015 From: lemke.jay@gmail.com (Jay Lemke) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 09:13:49 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> Message-ID: For an interesting approach to "community", I'd recommend Edith Turner's "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor Turner's concept. JAY. Jay Lemke LCHC/Department of Communication University of California - San Diego www.jaylemke.com On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and developing an alternative > concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a suitable unit of > analysis was how I got started down the track I have been on ever since > then, about 2003. What is the difference between community as in all people > living in such and such town, and "real" community? Robert Putnam had > assembled evidence that almost any collective activity fosters what he > called "social capital." The problem was that he couldn't distinguish > between the mafia taking root in a community and a community taking control > of crime on its streets, etc. His classic "example" activity was the > formation of choir groups, proven promoters of collective "wealth". > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> I found a segment of the American weekly TV program, 60 minutes, more than >> usually interesting this evening, and one segment in particular >> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many different interests of people on >> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the "Make a Wish Foundation." >> >> Of the very many issues that the program discusses, one which I found >> particularly interesting was the ability of the organized practice of >> communities >> raising money to give seriously ill children "a last wish" is one that has >> particular relevance to questions about the mechanisms of social >> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, a relatively poor and out >> of the part of the US, people raise amazing amounts of money to provide >> special experience for kids who are dying of some disease that has not >> known current cure. What particularly caught my attention especially is >> the >> powerful effect that participation in the money raising and the ingenious >> social organization of the activities, has on community members across >> several generations, from peers to grandparents. In one sense, it seems >> that everything is so focuses on the individual kid that it is "just a >> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." If effects on the kids is >> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on the community pretty >> generally, and the emergence of strong personal bonds in particular that >> caught me most. >> >> Andy might find this interesting as an example of a project. >> >> mike >> >> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ click on make a >> wish >> >> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Oct 19 09:43:49 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 09:43:49 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> Message-ID: <56251ddb.25c5440a.58fda.5b36@mx.google.com> Jay, Do you have a specific article or book to recommend. The theme of communitas and choirs as places of communitas (through the ear) seem central to what mike is calling to our ways of orienting Larry -----Original Message----- From: "Jay Lemke" Sent: ?2015-?10-?19 9:17 AM To: "Andy Blunden" ; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving For an interesting approach to "community", I'd recommend Edith Turner's "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor Turner's concept. JAY. Jay Lemke LCHC/Department of Communication University of California - San Diego www.jaylemke.com On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and developing an alternative > concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a suitable unit of > analysis was how I got started down the track I have been on ever since > then, about 2003. What is the difference between community as in all people > living in such and such town, and "real" community? Robert Putnam had > assembled evidence that almost any collective activity fosters what he > called "social capital." The problem was that he couldn't distinguish > between the mafia taking root in a community and a community taking control > of crime on its streets, etc. His classic "example" activity was the > formation of choir groups, proven promoters of collective "wealth". > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> I found a segment of the American weekly TV program, 60 minutes, more than >> usually interesting this evening, and one segment in particular >> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many different interests of people on >> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the "Make a Wish Foundation." >> >> Of the very many issues that the program discusses, one which I found >> particularly interesting was the ability of the organized practice of >> communities >> raising money to give seriously ill children "a last wish" is one that has >> particular relevance to questions about the mechanisms of social >> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, a relatively poor and out >> of the part of the US, people raise amazing amounts of money to provide >> special experience for kids who are dying of some disease that has not >> known current cure. What particularly caught my attention especially is >> the >> powerful effect that participation in the money raising and the ingenious >> social organization of the activities, has on community members across >> several generations, from peers to grandparents. In one sense, it seems >> that everything is so focuses on the individual kid that it is "just a >> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." If effects on the kids is >> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on the community pretty >> generally, and the emergence of strong personal bonds in particular that >> caught me most. >> >> Andy might find this interesting as an example of a project. >> >> mike >> >> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ click on make a >> wish >> >> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Oct 19 09:51:52 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 09:51:52 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs ofgiving In-Reply-To: <56251ddb.25c5440a.58fda.5b36@mx.google.com> References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> <56251ddb.25c5440a.58fda.5b36@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <56251fbd.c471440a.366cc.4db9@mx.google.com> Jay, I just noticed wikepedia has a site exploring communitas as the place between structure and liminality. This may be a boundary space or boundary object where we experience the joy of communitas. It seems to have a semblance to space of play as mimesis Liminal antistructure in play with structure. Very pregnant and fertile possibility in the realm of the not yet but could be. Imaginal Larry -----Original Message----- From: "Lplarry" Sent: ?2015-?10-?19 9:44 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ; "Andy Blunden" Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs ofgiving Jay, Do you have a specific article or book to recommend. The theme of communitas and choirs as places of communitas (through the ear) seem central to what mike is calling to our ways of orienting Larry From: Jay Lemke Sent: ?2015-?10-?19 9:17 AM To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving For an interesting approach to "community", I'd recommend Edith Turner's "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor Turner's concept. JAY. Jay Lemke LCHC/Department of Communication University of California - San Diego www.jaylemke.com On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and developing an alternative > concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a suitable unit of > analysis was how I got started down the track I have been on ever since > then, about 2003. What is the difference between community as in all people > living in such and such town, and "real" community? Robert Putnam had > assembled evidence that almost any collective activity fosters what he > called "social capital." The problem was that he couldn't distinguish > between the mafia taking root in a community and a community taking control > of crime on its streets, etc. His classic "example" activity was the > formation of choir groups, proven promoters of collective "wealth". > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> I found a segment of the American weekly TV program, 60 minutes, more than >> usually interesting this evening, and one segment in particular >> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many different interests of people on >> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the "Make a Wish Foundation." >> >> Of the very many issues that the program discusses, one which I found >> particularly interesting was the ability of the organized practice of >> communities >> raising money to give seriously ill children "a last wish" is one that has >> particular relevance to questions about the mechanisms of social >> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, a relatively poor and out >> of the part of the US, people raise amazing amounts of money to provide >> special experience for kids who are dying of some disease that has not >> known current cure. What particularly caught my attention especially is >> the >> powerful effect that participation in the money raising and the ingenious >> social organization of the activities, has on community members across >> several generations, from peers to grandparents. In one sense, it seems >> that everything is so focuses on the individual kid that it is "just a >> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." If effects on the kids is >> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on the community pretty >> generally, and the emergence of strong personal bonds in particular that >> caught me most. >> >> Andy might find this interesting as an example of a project. >> >> mike >> >> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ click on make a >> wish >> >> > From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Oct 19 10:00:18 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:00:18 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> Message-ID: What did you make of the CBS segment, Jay? Does it provide useful example of principle of community's in Turner? Mike Mike On Monday, October 19, 2015, Jay Lemke wrote: > For an interesting approach to "community", I'd recommend Edith Turner's > "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor Turner's concept. > > JAY. > > > Jay Lemke > LCHC/Department of Communication > University of California - San Diego > www.jaylemke.com > > > On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > > Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and developing an alternative > > concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a suitable unit of > > analysis was how I got started down the track I have been on ever since > > then, about 2003. What is the difference between community as in all > people > > living in such and such town, and "real" community? Robert Putnam had > > assembled evidence that almost any collective activity fosters what he > > called "social capital." The problem was that he couldn't distinguish > > between the mafia taking root in a community and a community taking > control > > of crime on its streets, etc. His classic "example" activity was the > > formation of choir groups, proven promoters of collective "wealth". > > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> I found a segment of the American weekly TV program, 60 minutes, more > than > >> usually interesting this evening, and one segment in particular > >> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many different interests of people > on > >> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the "Make a Wish Foundation." > >> > >> Of the very many issues that the program discusses, one which I found > >> particularly interesting was the ability of the organized practice of > >> communities > >> raising money to give seriously ill children "a last wish" is one that > has > >> particular relevance to questions about the mechanisms of social > >> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, a relatively poor and > out > >> of the part of the US, people raise amazing amounts of money to provide > >> special experience for kids who are dying of some disease that has not > >> known current cure. What particularly caught my attention especially is > >> the > >> powerful effect that participation in the money raising and the > ingenious > >> social organization of the activities, has on community members across > >> several generations, from peers to grandparents. In one sense, it seems > >> that everything is so focuses on the individual kid that it is "just a > >> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." If effects on the kids > is > >> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on the community pretty > >> generally, and the emergence of strong personal bonds in particular that > >> caught me most. > >> > >> Andy might find this interesting as an example of a project. > >> > >> mike > >> > >> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ click on make a > >> wish > >> > >> > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Oct 19 10:03:55 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:03:55 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving Message-ID: And what did you make of that CBS segment, Larry? Seems to me that it displayed several examples of structure and liminality. But I may be misapplying the terms. Mike On Monday, October 19, 2015, Lplarry wrote: > Jay, > I just noticed wikepedia has a site exploring communitas as the place > between structure and liminality. > This may be a boundary space or boundary object where we experience the > joy of communitas. > It seems to have a semblance to space of play as mimesis > Liminal antistructure in play with structure. > Very pregnant and fertile possibility in the realm of the not yet but > could be. > Imaginal > Larry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Lplarry" > > Sent: ?2015-?10-?19 9:44 AM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >; "Andy Blunden" > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs > ofgiving > > Jay, > Do you have a specific article or book to recommend. > The theme of communitas and choirs as places of communitas (through the > ear) seem central to what mike is calling to our ways of orienting > Larry > > > From: Jay Lemke > Sent: ?2015-?10-?19 9:17 AM > To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of > giving > > > For an interesting approach to "community", I'd recommend Edith Turner's > "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor Turner's concept. > > JAY. > > > Jay Lemke > LCHC/Department of Communication > University of California - San Diego > www.jaylemke.com > > > On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > > Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and developing an alternative > > concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a suitable unit of > > analysis was how I got started down the track I have been on ever since > > then, about 2003. What is the difference between community as in all > people > > living in such and such town, and "real" community? Robert Putnam had > > assembled evidence that almost any collective activity fosters what he > > called "social capital." The problem was that he couldn't distinguish > > between the mafia taking root in a community and a community taking > control > > of crime on its streets, etc. His classic "example" activity was the > > formation of choir groups, proven promoters of collective "wealth". > > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> I found a segment of the American weekly TV program, 60 minutes, more > than > >> usually interesting this evening, and one segment in particular > >> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many different interests of people > on > >> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the "Make a Wish Foundation." > >> > >> Of the very many issues that the program discusses, one which I found > >> particularly interesting was the ability of the organized practice of > >> communities > >> raising money to give seriously ill children "a last wish" is one that > has > >> particular relevance to questions about the mechanisms of social > >> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, a relatively poor and > out > >> of the part of the US, people raise amazing amounts of money to provide > >> special experience for kids who are dying of some disease that has not > >> known current cure. What particularly caught my attention especially is > >> the > >> powerful effect that participation in the money raising and the > ingenious > >> social organization of the activities, has on community members across > >> several generations, from peers to grandparents. In one sense, it seems > >> that everything is so focuses on the individual kid that it is "just a > >> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." If effects on the kids > is > >> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on the community pretty > >> generally, and the emergence of strong personal bonds in particular that > >> caught me most. > >> > >> Andy might find this interesting as an example of a project. > >> > >> mike > >> > >> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ click on make a > >> wish > >> > >> > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From lemke.jay@gmail.com Mon Oct 19 10:42:14 2015 From: lemke.jay@gmail.com (Jay Lemke) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:42:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Structure" and "liminality" are terms from Victor Turner's theoretical analysis. His co-author and partner, Edith Turner, continued and deepened this work by examining in more depth and in different culture sites (the original work was mostly in Africa), a third term, "communitas". She has a book of this title, which overviews decades of this research. I would say her main thesis is that communities are capable of producing emergent collective phenomena which challenge Western assumptions about ontology. Will try to look at the CBS segment in a while. JAY. Jay Lemke LCHC/Department of Communication University of California - San Diego www.jaylemke.com On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 10:03 AM, mike cole wrote: > And what did you make of that CBS segment, Larry? > Seems to me that it displayed several examples of structure and liminality. > But I may be misapplying the terms. > > Mike > > On Monday, October 19, 2015, Lplarry wrote: > > > Jay, > > I just noticed wikepedia has a site exploring communitas as the place > > between structure and liminality. > > This may be a boundary space or boundary object where we experience the > > joy of communitas. > > It seems to have a semblance to space of play as mimesis > > Liminal antistructure in play with structure. > > Very pregnant and fertile possibility in the realm of the not yet but > > could be. > > Imaginal > > Larry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Lplarry" > > > Sent: ?2015-?10-?19 9:44 AM > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >; "Andy Blunden" > > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs > > ofgiving > > > > Jay, > > Do you have a specific article or book to recommend. > > The theme of communitas and choirs as places of communitas (through the > > ear) seem central to what mike is calling to our ways of orienting > > Larry > > > > > > From: Jay Lemke > > Sent: ?2015-?10-?19 9:17 AM > > To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of > > giving > > > > > > For an interesting approach to "community", I'd recommend Edith Turner's > > "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor Turner's concept. > > > > JAY. > > > > > > Jay Lemke > > LCHC/Department of Communication > > University of California - San Diego > > www.jaylemke.com > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > > > > Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > > > Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and developing an > alternative > > > concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a suitable unit of > > > analysis was how I got started down the track I have been on ever since > > > then, about 2003. What is the difference between community as in all > > people > > > living in such and such town, and "real" community? Robert Putnam had > > > assembled evidence that almost any collective activity fosters what he > > > called "social capital." The problem was that he couldn't distinguish > > > between the mafia taking root in a community and a community taking > > control > > > of crime on its streets, etc. His classic "example" activity was the > > > formation of choir groups, proven promoters of collective "wealth". > > > > > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > >> I found a segment of the American weekly TV program, 60 minutes, more > > than > > >> usually interesting this evening, and one segment in particular > > >> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many different interests of > people > > on > > >> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the "Make a Wish > Foundation." > > >> > > >> Of the very many issues that the program discusses, one which I found > > >> particularly interesting was the ability of the organized practice of > > >> communities > > >> raising money to give seriously ill children "a last wish" is one that > > has > > >> particular relevance to questions about the mechanisms of social > > >> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, a relatively poor and > > out > > >> of the part of the US, people raise amazing amounts of money to > provide > > >> special experience for kids who are dying of some disease that has not > > >> known current cure. What particularly caught my attention especially > is > > >> the > > >> powerful effect that participation in the money raising and the > > ingenious > > >> social organization of the activities, has on community members across > > >> several generations, from peers to grandparents. In one sense, it > seems > > >> that everything is so focuses on the individual kid that it is "just a > > >> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." If effects on the > kids > > is > > >> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on the community pretty > > >> generally, and the emergence of strong personal bonds in particular > that > > >> caught me most. > > >> > > >> Andy might find this interesting as an example of a project. > > >> > > >> mike > > >> > > >> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ click on make > a > > >> wish > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From lemke.jay@gmail.com Mon Oct 19 11:40:33 2015 From: lemke.jay@gmail.com (Jay Lemke) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 11:40:33 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have just watched the CBS segment on the Make a Wish Foundation. Because several moments in it brought tears to my eyes, I have been thinking about the emotional dimension of the events for various participants as well as for the viewers. The notion of Communitas as well as structure and liminality were part of Turner's analysis of ritual and community solidarity. The affective dimension of participation in community events which build emotional solidarity as well as ideational and material solidarity is important in this analysis. Consider the emotional difference between being a full participant in events like the announcement of the granting of a wish versus merely being a voyeur. The status of being a felt full participant may be constituted in part by being a donor, being a volunteer, being a leader, and this range of modes of participation is open to a whole community and helps to constitute a community within the community. It is a community of shared feeling inseparable from shared activity. Think about the feelings you may have had as a spectator of the video and try to imagine the feelings of being a direct participant. In relation to Mike's writing about timescales relevant to development, the video segment does connect personal histories, event histories, and the history of the local chapter of the foundation. I think this suggests interesting questions about how to formulate and describe the affective dimension of time scales beyond that of short-term events. It also raises questions about the role of our own emotions as researchers in understanding such phenomena. JAY. Jay Lemke LCHC/Department of Communication University of California - San Diego www.jaylemke.com On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 10:03 AM, mike cole wrote: > And what did you make of that CBS segment, Larry? > Seems to me that it displayed several examples of structure and liminality. > But I may be misapplying the terms. > > Mike > > On Monday, October 19, 2015, Lplarry wrote: > > > Jay, > > I just noticed wikepedia has a site exploring communitas as the place > > between structure and liminality. > > This may be a boundary space or boundary object where we experience the > > joy of communitas. > > It seems to have a semblance to space of play as mimesis > > Liminal antistructure in play with structure. > > Very pregnant and fertile possibility in the realm of the not yet but > > could be. > > Imaginal > > Larry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Lplarry" > > > Sent: ?2015-?10-?19 9:44 AM > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >; "Andy Blunden" > > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs > > ofgiving > > > > Jay, > > Do you have a specific article or book to recommend. > > The theme of communitas and choirs as places of communitas (through the > > ear) seem central to what mike is calling to our ways of orienting > > Larry > > > > > > From: Jay Lemke > > Sent: ?2015-?10-?19 9:17 AM > > To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of > > giving > > > > > > For an interesting approach to "community", I'd recommend Edith Turner's > > "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor Turner's concept. > > > > JAY. > > > > > > Jay Lemke > > LCHC/Department of Communication > > University of California - San Diego > > www.jaylemke.com > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > > > > Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > > > Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and developing an > alternative > > > concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a suitable unit of > > > analysis was how I got started down the track I have been on ever since > > > then, about 2003. What is the difference between community as in all > > people > > > living in such and such town, and "real" community? Robert Putnam had > > > assembled evidence that almost any collective activity fosters what he > > > called "social capital." The problem was that he couldn't distinguish > > > between the mafia taking root in a community and a community taking > > control > > > of crime on its streets, etc. His classic "example" activity was the > > > formation of choir groups, proven promoters of collective "wealth". > > > > > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > >> I found a segment of the American weekly TV program, 60 minutes, more > > than > > >> usually interesting this evening, and one segment in particular > > >> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many different interests of > people > > on > > >> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the "Make a Wish > Foundation." > > >> > > >> Of the very many issues that the program discusses, one which I found > > >> particularly interesting was the ability of the organized practice of > > >> communities > > >> raising money to give seriously ill children "a last wish" is one that > > has > > >> particular relevance to questions about the mechanisms of social > > >> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, a relatively poor and > > out > > >> of the part of the US, people raise amazing amounts of money to > provide > > >> special experience for kids who are dying of some disease that has not > > >> known current cure. What particularly caught my attention especially > is > > >> the > > >> powerful effect that participation in the money raising and the > > ingenious > > >> social organization of the activities, has on community members across > > >> several generations, from peers to grandparents. In one sense, it > seems > > >> that everything is so focuses on the individual kid that it is "just a > > >> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." If effects on the > kids > > is > > >> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on the community pretty > > >> generally, and the emergence of strong personal bonds in particular > that > > >> caught me most. > > >> > > >> Andy might find this interesting as an example of a project. > > >> > > >> mike > > >> > > >> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ click on make > a > > >> wish > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Mon Oct 19 11:49:26 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:49:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <083ADECA-4BC2-4A65-B10C-30AB6D0A748C@uniandes.edu.co> Who knew that 60 Minutes is available on the CBS website? My Sunday evenings will never be the same (or perhaps it will be Monday morning?). Mike, my thoughts about the Make A Wish segment are these: that it illustrates a particularly striking and moving example of a much broader, even ubiquitous, phenomenon, namely the way that families, and more broadly communities, make arrangements to provide experiences they consider valuable and formative for their children. Typically this would be done in a habitual manner, with little reflection and less attention. Here, with Make A Wish, the child is in extraordinary circumstances, and so the response is more visible, and more striking. Indeed, its noteworthiness is a component of its operation: publicity moves it forward, generating the interest that provides the donations that make possible the generous granting of a seemingly impossible desire. It is a fairytale that can come true, and so illustrate "the power of making a wish," and so while it cannot make the child well (a fact the segment itself highlights), it can perhaps increase their will to live, and it certainly is experienced as transformative for the adults who participate (it puts their own problems in perspective) and for other children of the community ("it plays a huge part in what our kids grow up to be"). If a wish is the hope for something seemingly unattainable, something impossible or at least impractical for the child and immediate family alone, it is something that a community can organize to arrange to have come true. This is obviously something that doesn't happen every day -- it's deliberately organized to happen once a year, or perhaps once in a lifetime -- but on a more mundane scale what *does* happen everyday is not different in kind or character. Martin On Oct 18, 2015, at 10:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > I found a segment of the American weekly TV program, 60 minutes, more than > usually interesting this evening, and one segment in particular > seemed to have a lot of relevance to many different interests of people on > xmca. The topic was the the activities of the "Make a Wish Foundation." > > Of the very many issues that the program discusses, one which I found > particularly interesting was the ability of the organized practice of > communities > raising money to give seriously ill children "a last wish" is one that has > particular relevance to questions about the mechanisms of social > solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, a relatively poor and out > of the part of the US, people raise amazing amounts of money to provide > special experience for kids who are dying of some disease that has not > known current cure. What particularly caught my attention especially is the > powerful effect that participation in the money raising and the ingenious > social organization of the activities, has on community members across > several generations, from peers to grandparents. In one sense, it seems > that everything is so focuses on the individual kid that it is "just a > manifestation of late capitalist individualism." If effects on the kids is > interesting, but it is the reflected effect on the community pretty > generally, and the emergence of strong personal bonds in particular that > caught me most. > > Andy might find this interesting as an example of a project. > > mike > > http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ click on make a wish > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From smago@uga.edu Mon Oct 19 13:05:45 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 20:05:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At Kenyon College in about 1972, I took a Shakespeare course from Fred Turner, who told us about growing up on the African Savannah while his parents did anthropological studies. Victor and Edith's son, it turned out. He became a science fiction novelist, which would surely count as challenging Western ontology. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Jay Lemke Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 1:42 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving "Structure" and "liminality" are terms from Victor Turner's theoretical analysis. His co-author and partner, Edith Turner, continued and deepened this work by examining in more depth and in different culture sites (the original work was mostly in Africa), a third term, "communitas". She has a book of this title, which overviews decades of this research. I would say her main thesis is that communities are capable of producing emergent collective phenomena which challenge Western assumptions about ontology. Will try to look at the CBS segment in a while. JAY. Jay Lemke LCHC/Department of Communication University of California - San Diego www.jaylemke.com On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 10:03 AM, mike cole wrote: > And what did you make of that CBS segment, Larry? > Seems to me that it displayed several examples of structure and liminality. > But I may be misapplying the terms. > > Mike > > On Monday, October 19, 2015, Lplarry wrote: > > > Jay, > > I just noticed wikepedia has a site exploring communitas as the > > place between structure and liminality. > > This may be a boundary space or boundary object where we experience > > the joy of communitas. > > It seems to have a semblance to space of play as mimesis Liminal > > antistructure in play with structure. > > Very pregnant and fertile possibility in the realm of the not yet > > but could be. > > Imaginal > > Larry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Lplarry" > > > Sent: ?2015-?10-?19 9:44 AM > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >; "Andy Blunden" > > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social > > springs ofgiving > > > > Jay, > > Do you have a specific article or book to recommend. > > The theme of communitas and choirs as places of communitas (through > > the > > ear) seem central to what mike is calling to our ways of orienting > > Larry > > > > > > From: Jay Lemke > > Sent: ?2015-?10-?19 9:17 AM > > To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs > > of giving > > > > > > For an interesting approach to "community", I'd recommend Edith > > Turner's "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor Turner's concept. > > > > JAY. > > > > > > Jay Lemke > > LCHC/Department of Communication > > University of California - San Diego www.jaylemke.com > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > > > > Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > > > Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and developing an > alternative > > > concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a suitable unit of > > > analysis was how I got started down the track I have been on ever since > > > then, about 2003. What is the difference between community as in all > > people > > > living in such and such town, and "real" community? Robert Putnam had > > > assembled evidence that almost any collective activity fosters what he > > > called "social capital." The problem was that he couldn't distinguish > > > between the mafia taking root in a community and a community taking > > control > > > of crime on its streets, etc. His classic "example" activity was the > > > formation of choir groups, proven promoters of collective "wealth". > > > > > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > >> I found a segment of the American weekly TV program, 60 minutes, more > > than > > >> usually interesting this evening, and one segment in particular > > >> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many different interests of > people > > on > > >> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the "Make a Wish > Foundation." > > >> > > >> Of the very many issues that the program discusses, one which I found > > >> particularly interesting was the ability of the organized practice of > > >> communities > > >> raising money to give seriously ill children "a last wish" is one that > > has > > >> particular relevance to questions about the mechanisms of social > > >> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, a relatively poor and > > out > > >> of the part of the US, people raise amazing amounts of money to > provide > > >> special experience for kids who are dying of some disease that has not > > >> known current cure. What particularly caught my attention especially > is > > >> the > > >> powerful effect that participation in the money raising and the > > ingenious > > >> social organization of the activities, has on community members across > > >> several generations, from peers to grandparents. In one sense, it > seems > > >> that everything is so focuses on the individual kid that it is "just a > > >> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." If effects on the > kids > > is > > >> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on the community pretty > > >> generally, and the emergence of strong personal bonds in particular > that > > >> caught me most. > > >> > > >> Andy might find this interesting as an example of a project. > > >> > > >> mike > > >> > > >> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ click on make > a > > >> wish > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From lemke.jay@gmail.com Mon Oct 19 14:10:31 2015 From: lemke.jay@gmail.com (Jay Lemke) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 14:10:31 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Might check out Fred's writing. From his blog: "I am philosophically interested in time, evolution, and self-organizing complex systems in game theory and economics. Shakespeare is my enduring literary obsession." -- most of his writing is poetry, leaning toward epic, and even a sci-fi epic poem. One novel evidently considering whether moral values, distinct from esthetic ones, are a necessity (in an imagined future civilization). -- wrote a diss on Shakespeare's theory of time in society! Jay Lemke LCHC/Department of Communication University of California - San Diego www.jaylemke.com On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:05 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > At Kenyon College in about 1972, I took a Shakespeare course from Fred > Turner, who told us about growing up on the African Savannah while his > parents did anthropological studies. Victor and Edith's son, it turned out. > He became a science fiction novelist, which would surely count as > challenging Western ontology. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Jay Lemke > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 1:42 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of > giving > > "Structure" and "liminality" are terms from Victor Turner's theoretical > analysis. His co-author and partner, Edith Turner, continued and deepened > this work by examining in more depth and in different culture sites (the > original work was mostly in Africa), a third term, "communitas". She has a > book of this title, which overviews decades of this research. I would say > her main thesis is that communities are capable of producing emergent > collective phenomena which challenge Western assumptions about ontology. > > Will try to look at the CBS segment in a while. > > JAY. > > > Jay Lemke > LCHC/Department of Communication > University of California - San Diego > www.jaylemke.com > > > On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 10:03 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > And what did you make of that CBS segment, Larry? > > Seems to me that it displayed several examples of structure and > liminality. > > But I may be misapplying the terms. > > > > Mike > > > > On Monday, October 19, 2015, Lplarry wrote: > > > > > Jay, > > > I just noticed wikepedia has a site exploring communitas as the > > > place between structure and liminality. > > > This may be a boundary space or boundary object where we experience > > > the joy of communitas. > > > It seems to have a semblance to space of play as mimesis Liminal > > > antistructure in play with structure. > > > Very pregnant and fertile possibility in the realm of the not yet > > > but could be. > > > Imaginal > > > Larry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "Lplarry" > > > > Sent: ?2015-?10-?19 9:44 AM > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > >; "Andy Blunden" > > > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social > > > springs ofgiving > > > > > > Jay, > > > Do you have a specific article or book to recommend. > > > The theme of communitas and choirs as places of communitas (through > > > the > > > ear) seem central to what mike is calling to our ways of orienting > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > From: Jay Lemke > > > Sent: ?2015-?10-?19 9:17 AM > > > To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs > > > of giving > > > > > > > > > For an interesting approach to "community", I'd recommend Edith > > > Turner's "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor Turner's > concept. > > > > > > JAY. > > > > > > > > > Jay Lemke > > > LCHC/Department of Communication > > > University of California - San Diego www.jaylemke.com > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > > > > Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and developing an > > alternative > > > > concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a suitable unit of > > > > analysis was how I got started down the track I have been on ever > since > > > > then, about 2003. What is the difference between community as in all > > > people > > > > living in such and such town, and "real" community? Robert Putnam had > > > > assembled evidence that almost any collective activity fosters what > he > > > > called "social capital." The problem was that he couldn't distinguish > > > > between the mafia taking root in a community and a community taking > > > control > > > > of crime on its streets, etc. His classic "example" activity was the > > > > formation of choir groups, proven promoters of collective "wealth". > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > >> I found a segment of the American weekly TV program, 60 minutes, > more > > > than > > > >> usually interesting this evening, and one segment in particular > > > >> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many different interests of > > people > > > on > > > >> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the "Make a Wish > > Foundation." > > > >> > > > >> Of the very many issues that the program discusses, one which I > found > > > >> particularly interesting was the ability of the organized practice > of > > > >> communities > > > >> raising money to give seriously ill children "a last wish" is one > that > > > has > > > >> particular relevance to questions about the mechanisms of social > > > >> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, a relatively poor > and > > > out > > > >> of the part of the US, people raise amazing amounts of money to > > provide > > > >> special experience for kids who are dying of some disease that has > not > > > >> known current cure. What particularly caught my attention especially > > is > > > >> the > > > >> powerful effect that participation in the money raising and the > > > ingenious > > > >> social organization of the activities, has on community members > across > > > >> several generations, from peers to grandparents. In one sense, it > > seems > > > >> that everything is so focuses on the individual kid that it is > "just a > > > >> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." If effects on the > > kids > > > is > > > >> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on the community pretty > > > >> generally, and the emergence of strong personal bonds in particular > > that > > > >> caught me most. > > > >> > > > >> Andy might find this interesting as an example of a project. > > > >> > > > >> mike > > > >> > > > >> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ click on > make > > a > > > >> wish > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Tue Oct 20 02:17:49 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 20:17:49 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> Message-ID: <562606BD.7030200@mira.net> I watched the story. I already knew about Make-a-Wish so it was no surprise, but Mike's point was of course the way MaW became a vehicle for a fantastic wave of building social fabric. XMCAers are all going to be interested in any idea which can lead to building this kind of *trust* in a community. Trust is basically what "social capital" is, but the point is only how does one go about *building* that trust? Robert Putnam says almost any doing-something-together will have this effect, and took choir groups as his typical example. Personally, I think MaW would do better than choir groups, but that's not the point. Putnam's own data in his original study in Italy actually showed that the best predictor of social capital was having a PCI local government, which was inconvenient for Putnam's theory, so he just excluded this from his results. The story this week in Australia has been about Tamworth, famous for an annual Country Music festival, but otherwise a typical remote outback town. It is now building a Pharmaceutical plant. How did this huge change happen? A young boy had bowel cancer and his mother, a good member of the Country Women's Association, discovered that cannabis was the only medication which relieved the pain and nausea the boy was suffering. She took up the cause. While illegally acquiring cannabis she started lobbying government to legalise medical cannabis and she won, though the whole business will take a year or so to implement. And Tamworth will be all set to market it. She has gathered a huge social movement and local support radiating out from Tamworth. My point. Make-a-Wish worked for North East Arkansas, partly because of one child who lived to champion it. Cannabis legalisation and production worked for Tamworth. As Myles Horton said: What you must do is go back, get a simple place, move in and you are there. The situation is there. You start with this and let it grow. You know your goal. It will build its own structure and take its own form. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 20/10/2015 4:00 AM, mike cole wrote: > What did you make of the CBS segment, Jay? Does it provide useful example > of principle of community's in Turner? > Mike > Mike > > On Monday, October 19, 2015, Jay Lemke wrote: > >> For an interesting approach to "community", I'd recommend Edith Turner's >> "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor Turner's concept. >> >> JAY. >> >> >> Jay Lemke >> LCHC/Department of Communication >> University of California - San Diego >> www.jaylemke.com >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: >> >>> Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. >>> Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and developing an alternative >>> concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a suitable unit of >>> analysis was how I got started down the track I have been on ever since >>> then, about 2003. What is the difference between community as in all >> people >>> living in such and such town, and "real" community? Robert Putnam had >>> assembled evidence that almost any collective activity fosters what he >>> called "social capital." The problem was that he couldn't distinguish >>> between the mafia taking root in a community and a community taking >> control >>> of crime on its streets, etc. His classic "example" activity was the >>> formation of choir groups, proven promoters of collective "wealth". >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> I found a segment of the American weekly TV program, 60 minutes, more >> than >>>> usually interesting this evening, and one segment in particular >>>> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many different interests of people >> on >>>> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the "Make a Wish Foundation." >>>> >>>> Of the very many issues that the program discusses, one which I found >>>> particularly interesting was the ability of the organized practice of >>>> communities >>>> raising money to give seriously ill children "a last wish" is one that >> has >>>> particular relevance to questions about the mechanisms of social >>>> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, a relatively poor and >> out >>>> of the part of the US, people raise amazing amounts of money to provide >>>> special experience for kids who are dying of some disease that has not >>>> known current cure. What particularly caught my attention especially is >>>> the >>>> powerful effect that participation in the money raising and the >> ingenious >>>> social organization of the activities, has on community members across >>>> several generations, from peers to grandparents. In one sense, it seems >>>> that everything is so focuses on the individual kid that it is "just a >>>> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." If effects on the kids >> is >>>> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on the community pretty >>>> generally, and the emergence of strong personal bonds in particular that >>>> caught me most. >>>> >>>> Andy might find this interesting as an example of a project. >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ click on make a >>>> wish >>>> >>>> > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Tue Oct 20 19:01:23 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 02:01:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Glyphosate & pathways to modern diseases Message-ID: This morning I happened upon the work of Stephanie Senneff, who is exposing the use of Roundup herbicide (Glyphosate) by agribusiness. The standard practice today in the US is for crops to be treated with Roundup right before harvest; a dead wheat plant is easier to cut down than a live one. Then the grains are processed without removal of the herbicide. The use of Roundup correlates alarmingly with the incidence of digestive disorders, cancer. and even autism. Other countries are starting to ban Roundup, but the US is holding out. I've attached slides that I think are easy to follow; published papers are available at . Pass the word. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SeneffHawaiiSummer2015.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 4109042 bytes Desc: SeneffHawaiiSummer2015.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151021/737b353e/attachment-0001.pdf From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Oct 20 20:57:27 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 20:57:27 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Glyphosate & pathways to modern diseases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56270d4c.8171440a.c6e74.389a@mx.google.com> Martin, This is one more example of the ecological poisoning of our home. I was wondering what others think of the movements that are forming to put ecology as a basic human right that is written into constitutions. This move allows people to bring their governments to court to determine if they have broken constitutional laws. This was done in Denmark and the government was found negligent. What do others think of this worldwide initiative? Larry -----Original Message----- From: "Martin John Packer" Sent: ?2015-?10-?20 7:06 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Glyphosate & pathways to modern diseases This morning I happened upon the work of Stephanie Senneff, who is exposing the use of Roundup herbicide (Glyphosate) by agribusiness. The standard practice today in the US is for crops to be treated with Roundup right before harvest; a dead wheat plant is easier to cut down than a live one. Then the grains are processed without removal of the herbicide. The use of Roundup correlates alarmingly with the incidence of digestive disorders, cancer. and even autism. Other countries are starting to ban Roundup, but the US is holding out. I've attached slides that I think are easy to follow; published papers are available at . Pass the word. Martin From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Tue Oct 20 21:29:54 2015 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:29:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Glyphosate & pathways to modern diseases In-Reply-To: <56270d4c.8171440a.c6e74.389a@mx.google.com> References: , <56270d4c.8171440a.c6e74.389a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1445401793641.90747@iped.uio.no> Thanks for the link, I totally agree that we should fight to put ecology as a basic human right. Indeed, I all the time wonder how to do our work as academics, and in particular those dealing with education, more relevant to that issue too. Should not we put ecology as a basic orientation into our work as well? In my dissertation, I referred to "ecological approaches" to define an epistemological position, and discussed it analytically. For my defense lecture, my opponents assigned me the topic: "Educational IMPLICATIONS of ecological approaches... ". I had focused on theorizing a lot, but when I was invited to think of implications I realized that the only way to move the ecological stance forth into actual practice, and not leaving it just for armchair discussion, was to make it a guiding principle to all aspects of life, including the purpose of education and of work. There are associations of concerned scientists, students, and I know many in xmca take an activist stance in their research. Still, I feel that, at least in departments of education such as mine, considerations of ecology and of how to contribute to an ecologically minded society should be of highest relevance, just as fostering "21th century skills" (which surprisingly do not tend to consider ecology much), seem to be have been for a while. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Lplarry Sent: 21 October 2015 05:57 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Glyphosate & pathways to modern diseases Martin, This is one more example of the ecological poisoning of our home. I was wondering what others think of the movements that are forming to put ecology as a basic human right that is written into constitutions. This move allows people to bring their governments to court to determine if they have broken constitutional laws. This was done in Denmark and the government was found negligent. What do others think of this worldwide initiative? Larry -----Original Message----- From: "Martin John Packer" Sent: ?2015-?10-?20 7:06 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Glyphosate & pathways to modern diseases This morning I happened upon the work of Stephanie Senneff, who is exposing the use of Roundup herbicide (Glyphosate) by agribusiness. The standard practice today in the US is for crops to be treated with Roundup right before harvest; a dead wheat plant is easier to cut down than a live one. Then the grains are processed without removal of the herbicide. The use of Roundup correlates alarmingly with the incidence of digestive disorders, cancer. and even autism. Other countries are starting to ban Roundup, but the US is holding out. I've attached slides that I think are easy to follow; published papers are available at . Pass the word. Martin From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Oct 20 23:47:15 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 23:47:15 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: <562606BD.7030200@mira.net> References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> <562606BD.7030200@mira.net> Message-ID: <56273521.21bf440a.128a9.5fe5@mx.google.com> Andy, The wisdom of Myles Norton. You must go back. Does this mean retreat or withdraw to a simple place? The question of the place being simple also seems relevant. Also the need for a goal. Is the type of goal required an *ethical* goal that is shared? THEN the movement and application will take its *own* form and structure once we have a place. It seems Myles Horton is trusting goals without blueprints that give pre/established answers. TRUSTING the place and the goals to open opportunities of possibility. A simple place -----Original Message----- From: "Andy Blunden" Sent: ?2015-?10-?20 2:18 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving I watched the story. I already knew about Make-a-Wish so it was no surprise, but Mike's point was of course the way MaW became a vehicle for a fantastic wave of building social fabric. XMCAers are all going to be interested in any idea which can lead to building this kind of *trust* in a community. Trust is basically what "social capital" is, but the point is only how does one go about *building* that trust? Robert Putnam says almost any doing-something-together will have this effect, and took choir groups as his typical example. Personally, I think MaW would do better than choir groups, but that's not the point. Putnam's own data in his original study in Italy actually showed that the best predictor of social capital was having a PCI local government, which was inconvenient for Putnam's theory, so he just excluded this from his results. The story this week in Australia has been about Tamworth, famous for an annual Country Music festival, but otherwise a typical remote outback town. It is now building a Pharmaceutical plant. How did this huge change happen? A young boy had bowel cancer and his mother, a good member of the Country Women's Association, discovered that cannabis was the only medication which relieved the pain and nausea the boy was suffering. She took up the cause. While illegally acquiring cannabis she started lobbying government to legalise medical cannabis and she won, though the whole business will take a year or so to implement. And Tamworth will be all set to market it. She has gathered a huge social movement and local support radiating out from Tamworth. My point. Make-a-Wish worked for North East Arkansas, partly because of one child who lived to champion it. Cannabis legalisation and production worked for Tamworth. As Myles Horton said: What you must do is go back, get a simple place, move in and you are there. The situation is there. You start with this and let it grow. You know your goal. It will build its own structure and take its own form. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 20/10/2015 4:00 AM, mike cole wrote: > What did you make of the CBS segment, Jay? Does it provide useful example > of principle of community's in Turner? > Mike > Mike > > On Monday, October 19, 2015, Jay Lemke wrote: > >> For an interesting approach to "community", I'd recommend Edith Turner's >> "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor Turner's concept. >> >> JAY. >> >> >> Jay Lemke >> LCHC/Department of Communication >> University of California - San Diego >> www.jaylemke.com >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: >> >>> Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. >>> Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and developing an alternative >>> concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a suitable unit of >>> analysis was how I got started down the track I have been on ever since >>> then, about 2003. What is the difference between community as in all >> people >>> living in such and such town, and "real" community? Robert Putnam had >>> assembled evidence that almost any collective activity fosters what he >>> called "social capital." The problem was that he couldn't distinguish >>> between the mafia taking root in a community and a community taking >> control >>> of crime on its streets, etc. His classic "example" activity was the >>> formation of choir groups, proven promoters of collective "wealth". >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> I found a segment of the American weekly TV program, 60 minutes, more >> than >>>> usually interesting this evening, and one segment in particular >>>> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many different interests of people >> on >>>> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the "Make a Wish Foundation." >>>> >>>> Of the very many issues that the program discusses, one which I found >>>> particularly interesting was the ability of the organized practice of >>>> communities >>>> raising money to give seriously ill children "a last wish" is one that >> has >>>> particular relevance to questions about the mechanisms of social >>>> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, a relatively poor and >> out >>>> of the part of the US, people raise amazing amounts of money to provide >>>> special experience for kids who are dying of some disease that has not >>>> known current cure. What particularly caught my attention especially is >>>> the >>>> powerful effect that participation in the money raising and the >> ingenious >>>> social organization of the activities, has on community members across >>>> several generations, from peers to grandparents. In one sense, it seems >>>> that everything is so focuses on the individual kid that it is "just a >>>> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." If effects on the kids >> is >>>> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on the community pretty >>>> generally, and the emergence of strong personal bonds in particular that >>>> caught me most. >>>> >>>> Andy might find this interesting as an example of a project. >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ click on make a >>>> wish >>>> >>>> > From ablunden@mira.net Wed Oct 21 01:09:37 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 19:09:37 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Moscow ISCAR summer University Message-ID: <56274841.1000800@mira.net> Here is the link to announcement of Moscow ISCAR summer University for PhD students and early career researchers. http://iscarschool.ru/?page_id=4744 Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 21 07:33:10 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 07:33:10 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: <56273521.21bf440a.128a9.5fe5@mx.google.com> References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> <562606BD.7030200@mira.net> <56273521.21bf440a.128a9.5fe5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: larry, Andy Does Horton's advice provide an explanation for the various phenomena on display in that video segment? I am a little lost here. mike On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Lplarry wrote: > Andy, > The wisdom of Myles Norton. > You must go back. Does this mean retreat or withdraw to a simple place? > The question of the place being simple also seems relevant. > Also the need for a goal. Is the type of goal required an *ethical* goal > that is shared? > THEN the movement and application will take its *own* form and structure > once we have a place. > It seems Myles Horton is trusting goals without blueprints that give > pre/established answers. > TRUSTING the place and the goals to open opportunities of possibility. A > simple place > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Andy Blunden" > Sent: ?2015-?10-?20 2:18 AM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of > giving > > I watched the story. > I already knew about Make-a-Wish so it was no surprise, but > Mike's point was of course the way MaW became a vehicle for > a fantastic wave of building social fabric. > XMCAers are all going to be interested in any idea which can > lead to building this kind of *trust* in a community. Trust > is basically what "social capital" is, but the point is only > how does one go about *building* that trust? Robert Putnam > says almost any doing-something-together will have this > effect, and took choir groups as his typical example. > Personally, I think MaW would do better than choir groups, > but that's not the point. Putnam's own data in his original > study in Italy actually showed that the best predictor of > social capital was having a PCI local government, which was > inconvenient for Putnam's theory, so he just excluded this > from his results. > The story this week in Australia has been about Tamworth, > famous for an annual Country Music festival, but otherwise a > typical remote outback town. It is now building a > Pharmaceutical plant. How did this huge change happen? A > young boy had bowel cancer and his mother, a good member of > the Country Women's Association, discovered that cannabis > was the only medication which relieved the pain and nausea > the boy was suffering. She took up the cause. While > illegally acquiring cannabis she started lobbying government > to legalise medical cannabis and she won, though the whole > business will take a year or so to implement. And Tamworth > will be all set to market it. She has gathered a huge social > movement and local support radiating out from Tamworth. > My point. Make-a-Wish worked for North East Arkansas, partly > because of one child who lived to champion it. Cannabis > legalisation and production worked for Tamworth. > As Myles Horton said: > > What you must do is go back, get a simple place, > move in and you are there. The situation is there. > You start with this and let it grow. You know your > goal. It will build its own structure and take its > own form. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 20/10/2015 4:00 AM, mike cole wrote: > > What did you make of the CBS segment, Jay? Does it provide useful example > > of principle of community's in Turner? > > Mike > > Mike > > > > On Monday, October 19, 2015, Jay Lemke wrote: > > > >> For an interesting approach to "community", I'd recommend Edith Turner's > >> "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor Turner's concept. > >> > >> JAY. > >> > >> > >> Jay Lemke > >> LCHC/Department of Communication > >> University of California - San Diego > >> www.jaylemke.com > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: > >> > >>> Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > >>> Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and developing an > alternative > >>> concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a suitable unit of > >>> analysis was how I got started down the track I have been on ever since > >>> then, about 2003. What is the difference between community as in all > >> people > >>> living in such and such town, and "real" community? Robert Putnam had > >>> assembled evidence that almost any collective activity fosters what he > >>> called "social capital." The problem was that he couldn't distinguish > >>> between the mafia taking root in a community and a community taking > >> control > >>> of crime on its streets, etc. His classic "example" activity was the > >>> formation of choir groups, proven promoters of collective "wealth". > >>> > >>> Andy > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>> > >>> On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>>> I found a segment of the American weekly TV program, 60 minutes, more > >> than > >>>> usually interesting this evening, and one segment in particular > >>>> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many different interests of > people > >> on > >>>> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the "Make a Wish > Foundation." > >>>> > >>>> Of the very many issues that the program discusses, one which I found > >>>> particularly interesting was the ability of the organized practice of > >>>> communities > >>>> raising money to give seriously ill children "a last wish" is one that > >> has > >>>> particular relevance to questions about the mechanisms of social > >>>> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, a relatively poor and > >> out > >>>> of the part of the US, people raise amazing amounts of money to > provide > >>>> special experience for kids who are dying of some disease that has not > >>>> known current cure. What particularly caught my attention especially > is > >>>> the > >>>> powerful effect that participation in the money raising and the > >> ingenious > >>>> social organization of the activities, has on community members across > >>>> several generations, from peers to grandparents. In one sense, it > seems > >>>> that everything is so focuses on the individual kid that it is "just a > >>>> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." If effects on the > kids > >> is > >>>> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on the community pretty > >>>> generally, and the emergence of strong personal bonds in particular > that > >>>> caught me most. > >>>> > >>>> Andy might find this interesting as an example of a project. > >>>> > >>>> mike > >>>> > >>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ click on > make a > >>>> wish > >>>> > >>>> > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From smago@uga.edu Wed Oct 21 08:36:34 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 15:36:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] omics international Message-ID: http://mentalhealth.conferenceseries.com/ does anyone know anything about omics? Thx,p From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 21 09:11:14 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 09:11:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Liliana Tolchinsky Introduces Cultura y Educacion: Culture and Education In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: These article, available today for free, should appeal to many of you. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Routledge Date: Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 2:01 AM Subject: Liliana Tolchinsky Introduces Cultura y Educacion: Culture and Education To: lchcmike@gmail.com Not displaying correctly? View in your browser: http://tandf.msgfocus.com/q/17Fc9SuiPocQxnqOrArFhY/wv Plain text version | Add to safe senders list *Cultura y Educaci?n: Culture and Education* Dear Colleague These selected articles reflect *Cultura y Educaci?n's* editorial scope. Articles delve into the educational fact throughout the lifespan, from nursery school through to university, in formal and informal settings. They examine different teaching-learning approaches in a diversity of learning areas and contents but special preference is given to studies that link culture and education with language and literacy. The articles also point at the possibility of publishing monographic issues with a set of articles addressing the same topic; and, illustrate the different types of articles that are accepted for publication: Research reports that present empirical or educational intervention studies; Teaching experiences, that discuss original educational activities duly evaluated, Project descriptions that describe educational projects that stand out for their innovative character and Position papers that argue for a relevant matter from a given perspective and in comparison with other perspectives on the same matter. Access the articles for free today and we hope that you enjoy reading the research. *Access the research* Yours Sincerely, Liliana Tolchinsky, Editor ------------------------------ *The Journal* *Cultura y Educaci?n* is a journal that delves into the educational fact as a permanent cultural construction throughout the life span, in diverse settings and through diverse teaching-learning mechanisms, linked to diverse social human organizations. The journal intends to closely relate theoretical and applied research, and will place special value on theoretical-methodological consistency in research and educational design processes. *Sign up to new issue alerts* [image: journal cover] [image: Share on Facebook] Share on Facebook [image: Share on Twitter] Share on Twitter [image: Forward to a friend] Forward to a friend *Cultura y Educacion *is the journal of Fundaci?n Infancia y Aprendizaje (FIA). *Included in the Thomson Reuters Social Sciences Citation Index?* *Submit your manuscript* follow us on Twitter | find us on Facebook | forward to a friend [image: Taylor & Francis imprints] *Sign up by subject area to receive news and offers straight to your inbox from the Taylor & Francis Group.* You will be able to update your details or unsubscribe at any time. We respect your privacy and will not disclose, rent or sell your email address to any outside organisations. Copyright ? 2015 Taylor & Francis, an Informa business. Taylor & Francis is a trading name of Informa UK Limited, registered in England under no. 1072954. Registered office: 5 Howick Place, London, SW1P 1WG. If you wish to unsubscribe, please click here . Please note this is an automated operation. [image: Powered by Adestra] -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From ablunden@mira.net Wed Oct 21 17:52:30 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:52:30 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> <562606BD.7030200@mira.net> <56273521.21bf440a.128a9.5fe5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5628334E.1070508@mira.net> Mike, it is a suggestion that the phenomena manifested by Make-a-Wish in NE Arkansas may not be portable, and that the kind of social change achieved requires other means in other places. After kind of touring the world, Horton went back, more or less, to his home territory to set up the base to use adult education as an instrument for social transformation. The merits of beginning from your own roots is one of the conclusions I drew from my years of ultraleft activity. In the 1970s, all over the world, people of my generation who had been radicalised in the mass movements of the 1960s abandoned the professions they would otherwise have joined after completing university and went to work in factories based on convictions that this was where social transformation could be achieved. A big mistake. Just like in many countries our opposite numbers left the cities and went into the countryside. Big mistake. This was not a mistake made by the woman who is the inspiration behind this obsession with Make-a-Wish in NE Arkansas. She was a child who got her real wish fulfilled and got better after being the subject of a Make-a-Wish project, and what she decided to do with her life was lots and lots of Make-a-Wish projects in her home town and surrounds. Good decision. Now, there is a strong sense of "Only in America" in this story. I am not much of a theologian, having been raised by Communists myself and never having been to Damascus. But I think it could only be in a country so utterly steeped in Christianity as rural U S of A that Make-a-Wish could so grip entire communities. In social democratic countries like Australia, Make-a-Wish has a life, but it is not a big thing and nor is any variety of philanthropy. When people want to do something to help there is a powerful reflex which says that the proper way to help is to get government or at the very least some kind of statutory authority to take on the problem in a permanent, universal commitment. Which does produce weird phenomena from time to time. Whenever there is a tsunami or a famine, Australians give billions on a personal basis and our governments give very little. Now this brings me to a puzzle which I have wrestled with most of my life without resolution. Almost everyone I see doing good, selfless community service, even including self-help and community development work, is motivated by religion. There are those of us who serve the community motivated by secular ideals, but we are really a small minority. This is a real conundrum for those of us motivated by secular ideals because we rely on the idea that secular ideals are powerful enough to motivate meaningful life-projects which are not self-serving. One of the attractions of Make-a-Wish is that it is a project-of-projects. In fact, most of the participants probably are not even conscious of an overall project, just "Make-a-Wish". None of the above goes to the key relation at the centre of each Make-a-Wish project, the sick child. I am sure a poet-psychologist could wax lyrical on that theme, but that's not for me. The ability of the sick child to cut through to the heart of every adult is surely universal. But Jane Jacobs rated the obligation upon any adult to come to the aid of any child on the pavement a key characteristic of a healthy city and I agree. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 22/10/2015 1:33 AM, mike cole wrote: > larry, Andy > > Does Horton's advice provide an explanation for the > various phenomena on display in that video segment? > > I am a little lost here. > mike > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Lplarry > > wrote: > > Andy, > The wisdom of Myles Norton. > You must go back. Does this mean retreat or withdraw > to a simple place? The question of the place being > simple also seems relevant. > Also the need for a goal. Is the type of goal required > an *ethical* goal that is shared? > THEN the movement and application will take its *own* > form and structure once we have a place. > It seems Myles Horton is trusting goals without > blueprints that give pre/established answers. > TRUSTING the place and the goals to open > opportunities of possibility. A simple place > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Andy Blunden" > > Sent: ?2015-?10-?20 2:18 AM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the > social springs of giving > > I watched the story. > I already knew about Make-a-Wish so it was no > surprise, but > Mike's point was of course the way MaW became a > vehicle for > a fantastic wave of building social fabric. > XMCAers are all going to be interested in any idea > which can > lead to building this kind of *trust* in a community. > Trust > is basically what "social capital" is, but the point > is only > how does one go about *building* that trust? Robert Putnam > says almost any doing-something-together will have this > effect, and took choir groups as his typical example. > Personally, I think MaW would do better than choir groups, > but that's not the point. Putnam's own data in his > original > study in Italy actually showed that the best predictor of > social capital was having a PCI local government, > which was > inconvenient for Putnam's theory, so he just excluded this > from his results. > The story this week in Australia has been about Tamworth, > famous for an annual Country Music festival, but > otherwise a > typical remote outback town. It is now building a > Pharmaceutical plant. How did this huge change happen? A > young boy had bowel cancer and his mother, a good > member of > the Country Women's Association, discovered that cannabis > was the only medication which relieved the pain and nausea > the boy was suffering. She took up the cause. While > illegally acquiring cannabis she started lobbying > government > to legalise medical cannabis and she won, though the whole > business will take a year or so to implement. And Tamworth > will be all set to market it. She has gathered a huge > social > movement and local support radiating out from Tamworth. > My point. Make-a-Wish worked for North East Arkansas, > partly > because of one child who lived to champion it. Cannabis > legalisation and production worked for Tamworth. > As Myles Horton said: > > What you must do is go back, get a simple place, > move in and you are there. The situation is there. > You start with this and let it grow. You know your > goal. It will build its own structure and take its > own form. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > On 20/10/2015 4:00 AM, mike cole wrote: > > What did you make of the CBS segment, Jay? Does it > provide useful example > > of principle of community's in Turner? > > Mike > > Mike > > > > On Monday, October 19, 2015, Jay Lemke > > wrote: > > > >> For an interesting approach to "community", I'd > recommend Edith Turner's > >> "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor > Turner's concept. > >> > >> JAY. > >> > >> > >> Jay Lemke > >> LCHC/Department of Communication > >> University of California - San Diego > >> www.jaylemke.com > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden > > >> > wrote: > >> > >>> Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > >>> Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and > developing an alternative > >>> concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a > suitable unit of > >>> analysis was how I got started down the track I > have been on ever since > >>> then, about 2003. What is the difference between > community as in all > >> people > >>> living in such and such town, and "real" > community? Robert Putnam had > >>> assembled evidence that almost any collective > activity fosters what he > >>> called "social capital." The problem was that he > couldn't distinguish > >>> between the mafia taking root in a community and a > community taking > >> control > >>> of crime on its streets, etc. His classic > "example" activity was the > >>> formation of choir groups, proven promoters of > collective "wealth". > >>> > >>> Andy > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >>> > >>> On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>>> I found a segment of the American weekly TV > program, 60 minutes, more > >> than > >>>> usually interesting this evening, and one segment > in particular > >>>> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many > different interests of people > >> on > >>>> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the > "Make a Wish Foundation." > >>>> > >>>> Of the very many issues that the program > discusses, one which I found > >>>> particularly interesting was the ability of the > organized practice of > >>>> communities > >>>> raising money to give seriously ill children "a > last wish" is one that > >> has > >>>> particular relevance to questions about the > mechanisms of social > >>>> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, > a relatively poor and > >> out > >>>> of the part of the US, people raise amazing > amounts of money to provide > >>>> special experience for kids who are dying of some > disease that has not > >>>> known current cure. What particularly caught my > attention especially is > >>>> the > >>>> powerful effect that participation in the money > raising and the > >> ingenious > >>>> social organization of the activities, has on > community members across > >>>> several generations, from peers to grandparents. > In one sense, it seems > >>>> that everything is so focuses on the individual > kid that it is "just a > >>>> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." > If effects on the kids > >> is > >>>> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on > the community pretty > >>>> generally, and the emergence of strong personal > bonds in particular that > >>>> caught me most. > >>>> > >>>> Andy might find this interesting as an example of > a project. > >>>> > >>>> mike > >>>> > >>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ > click on make a > >>>> wish > >>>> > >>>> > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural > science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Wed Oct 21 17:59:43 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 00:59:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: <5628334E.1070508@mira.net> References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> <562606BD.7030200@mira.net> <56273521.21bf440a.128a9.5fe5@mx.google.com> <5628334E.1070508@mira.net> Message-ID: I ran a fundraiser for my dying nephew. It meant so many things to so many people. But mainly it provided a rallying cry, a sword against the windmill of nature's indiscriminate hand. And for my brother and his wife it provided a purpose for their son and the means to survive the pitfalls of American healthcare. Made me think that spaces of grievance and hope are unique networks of adult and community learning. That is what Make a Wish does. It provides a little bit a hope in the face of a known and horrible destiny. On Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 8:53 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > Mike, it is a suggestion that the phenomena manifested by > Make-a-Wish in NE Arkansas may not be portable, and that the > kind of social change achieved requires other means in other > places. > After kind of touring the world, Horton went back, more or > less, to his home territory to set up the base to use adult > education as an instrument for social transformation. The > merits of beginning from your own roots is one of the > conclusions I drew from my years of ultraleft activity. In > the 1970s, all over the world, people of my generation who > had been radicalised in the mass movements of the 1960s > abandoned the professions they would otherwise have joined > after completing university and went to work in factories > based on convictions that this was where social > transformation could be achieved. A big mistake. Just like > in many countries our opposite numbers left the cities and > went into the countryside. Big mistake. > This was not a mistake made by the woman who is the > inspiration behind this obsession with Make-a-Wish in NE > Arkansas. She was a child who got her real wish fulfilled > and got better after being the subject of a Make-a-Wish > project, and what she decided to do with her life was lots > and lots of Make-a-Wish projects in her home town and > surrounds. Good decision. > Now, there is a strong sense of "Only in America" in this > story. I am not much of a theologian, having been raised by > Communists myself and never having been to Damascus. But I > think it could only be in a country so utterly steeped in > Christianity as rural U S of A that Make-a-Wish could so > grip entire communities. > In social democratic countries like Australia, Make-a-Wish > has a life, but it is not a big thing and nor is any variety > of philanthropy. When people want to do something to help > there is a powerful reflex which says that the proper way to > help is to get government or at the very least some kind of > statutory authority to take on the problem in a permanent, > universal commitment. Which does produce weird phenomena > from time to time. Whenever there is a tsunami or a famine, > Australians give billions on a personal basis and our > governments give very little. > Now this brings me to a puzzle which I have wrestled with > most of my life without resolution. Almost everyone I see > doing good, selfless community service, even including > self-help and community development work, is motivated by > religion. There are those of us who serve the community > motivated by secular ideals, but we are really a small > minority. This is a real conundrum for those of us motivated > by secular ideals because we rely on the idea that secular > ideals are powerful enough to motivate meaningful > life-projects which are not self-serving. > One of the attractions of Make-a-Wish is that it is a > project-of-projects. In fact, most of the participants > probably are not even conscious of an overall project, just > "Make-a-Wish". > None of the above goes to the key relation at the centre of > each Make-a-Wish project, the sick child. I am sure a > poet-psychologist could wax lyrical on that theme, but > that's not for me. The ability of the sick child to cut > through to the heart of every adult is surely universal. But > Jane Jacobs rated the obligation upon any adult to come to > the aid of any child on the pavement a key characteristic of > a healthy city and I agree. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 22/10/2015 1:33 AM, mike cole wrote: > > larry, Andy > > > > Does Horton's advice provide an explanation for the > > various phenomena on display in that video segment? > > > > I am a little lost here. > > mike > > > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Lplarry > > > wrote: > > > > Andy, > > The wisdom of Myles Norton. > > You must go back. Does this mean retreat or withdraw > > to a simple place? The question of the place being > > simple also seems relevant. > > Also the need for a goal. Is the type of goal required > > an *ethical* goal that is shared? > > THEN the movement and application will take its *own* > > form and structure once we have a place. > > It seems Myles Horton is trusting goals without > > blueprints that give pre/established answers. > > TRUSTING the place and the goals to open > > opportunities of possibility. A simple place > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Andy Blunden" > > > > Sent: ?2015-?10-?20 2:18 AM > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the > > social springs of giving > > > > I watched the story. > > I already knew about Make-a-Wish so it was no > > surprise, but > > Mike's point was of course the way MaW became a > > vehicle for > > a fantastic wave of building social fabric. > > XMCAers are all going to be interested in any idea > > which can > > lead to building this kind of *trust* in a community. > > Trust > > is basically what "social capital" is, but the point > > is only > > how does one go about *building* that trust? Robert Putnam > > says almost any doing-something-together will have this > > effect, and took choir groups as his typical example. > > Personally, I think MaW would do better than choir groups, > > but that's not the point. Putnam's own data in his > > original > > study in Italy actually showed that the best predictor of > > social capital was having a PCI local government, > > which was > > inconvenient for Putnam's theory, so he just excluded this > > from his results. > > The story this week in Australia has been about Tamworth, > > famous for an annual Country Music festival, but > > otherwise a > > typical remote outback town. It is now building a > > Pharmaceutical plant. How did this huge change happen? A > > young boy had bowel cancer and his mother, a good > > member of > > the Country Women's Association, discovered that cannabis > > was the only medication which relieved the pain and nausea > > the boy was suffering. She took up the cause. While > > illegally acquiring cannabis she started lobbying > > government > > to legalise medical cannabis and she won, though the whole > > business will take a year or so to implement. And Tamworth > > will be all set to market it. She has gathered a huge > > social > > movement and local support radiating out from Tamworth. > > My point. Make-a-Wish worked for North East Arkansas, > > partly > > because of one child who lived to champion it. Cannabis > > legalisation and production worked for Tamworth. > > As Myles Horton said: > > > > What you must do is go back, get a simple place, > > move in and you are there. The situation is there. > > You start with this and let it grow. You know your > > goal. It will build its own structure and take its > > own form. > > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > On 20/10/2015 4:00 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > What did you make of the CBS segment, Jay? Does it > > provide useful example > > > of principle of community's in Turner? > > > Mike > > > Mike > > > > > > On Monday, October 19, 2015, Jay Lemke > > > wrote: > > > > > >> For an interesting approach to "community", I'd > > recommend Edith Turner's > > >> "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor > > Turner's concept. > > >> > > >> JAY. > > >> > > >> > > >> Jay Lemke > > >> LCHC/Department of Communication > > >> University of California - San Diego > > >> www.jaylemke.com > > >> > > >> > > >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden > > > > >> > wrote: > > >> > > >>> Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > > >>> Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and > > developing an alternative > > >>> concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a > > suitable unit of > > >>> analysis was how I got started down the track I > > have been on ever since > > >>> then, about 2003. What is the difference between > > community as in all > > >> people > > >>> living in such and such town, and "real" > > community? Robert Putnam had > > >>> assembled evidence that almost any collective > > activity fosters what he > > >>> called "social capital." The problem was that he > > couldn't distinguish > > >>> between the mafia taking root in a community and a > > community taking > > >> control > > >>> of crime on its streets, etc. His classic > > "example" activity was the > > >>> formation of choir groups, proven promoters of > > collective "wealth". > > >>> > > >>> Andy > > >>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> *Andy Blunden* > > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > >>> > > >>> On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> I found a segment of the American weekly TV > > program, 60 minutes, more > > >> than > > >>>> usually interesting this evening, and one segment > > in particular > > >>>> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many > > different interests of people > > >> on > > >>>> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the > > "Make a Wish Foundation." > > >>>> > > >>>> Of the very many issues that the program > > discusses, one which I found > > >>>> particularly interesting was the ability of the > > organized practice of > > >>>> communities > > >>>> raising money to give seriously ill children "a > > last wish" is one that > > >> has > > >>>> particular relevance to questions about the > > mechanisms of social > > >>>> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, > > a relatively poor and > > >> out > > >>>> of the part of the US, people raise amazing > > amounts of money to provide > > >>>> special experience for kids who are dying of some > > disease that has not > > >>>> known current cure. What particularly caught my > > attention especially is > > >>>> the > > >>>> powerful effect that participation in the money > > raising and the > > >> ingenious > > >>>> social organization of the activities, has on > > community members across > > >>>> several generations, from peers to grandparents. > > In one sense, it seems > > >>>> that everything is so focuses on the individual > > kid that it is "just a > > >>>> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." > > If effects on the kids > > >> is > > >>>> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on > > the community pretty > > >>>> generally, and the emergence of strong personal > > bonds in particular that > > >>>> caught me most. > > >>>> > > >>>> Andy might find this interesting as an example of > > a project. > > >>>> > > >>>> mike > > >>>> > > >>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ > > click on make a > > >>>> wish > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural > > science with an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Oct 21 20:06:33 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 20:06:33 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> <562606BD.7030200@mira.net> <56273521.21bf440a.128a9.5fe5@mx.google.com> <5628334E.1070508@mira.net> Message-ID: <562850ff.44e5440a.940e2.248b@mx.google.com> Andy, I want to stay with Jane Jacobs, and her description of healthy cities. They are places where any adult would come to the aid of any child on the pavement. Levinas said we are called to respond to the face of the other. We can turn away but this is to retreat or withdraw from the call. Andy I believe you are pointing out that different traditions [religious and secular] can nurture our capacity to not turn away from the other. I hear this as a question [not an answer]. How central are *ethical* actions to healthy cities? We often say that discursive conversational, dialectical, dialogical orientations [which are not foundational a priori answers] are the places or spaces that generate ethical actions. However is it possible that the *ethical* is the central focus and our discursive, conversational, dialectical, dialogical actions are ways of expressing our shared *ethical* con - cerns. This fits with your understanding that because the USA is still oriented to the Christian *ethical* while Australia's *ethical* orientation is to turn to state solutions as ways to answer the *ethical* QUESTION. The dialogical, discursive conversational approaches are opening generative questions [in contrast to a priori blueprint answers]. Your question that both the secular and religious traditions can be vehicles which call us to respond [or turn away] leaves open how we come to understand, interpret, and apply *ethical* callings but is it possible to find common *ethical*goals which honor religious and secular orientations in a shared common sense? I will just mention as an aside that Habermas recently has been engaged with these questions moving beyond conversational rationality to re-engage the religious impulse. larry Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Greg Mcverry Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 6:02 PM To: ablunden@mira.net;eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity;mike cole Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving I ran a fundraiser for my dying nephew. It meant so many things to so many people. But mainly it provided a rallying cry, a sword against the windmill of nature's indiscriminate hand. And for my brother and his wife it provided a purpose for their son and the means to survive the pitfalls of American healthcare. Made me think that spaces of grievance and hope are unique networks of adult and community learning. That is what Make a Wish does. It provides a little bit a hope in the face of a known and horrible destiny. On Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 8:53 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > Mike, it is a suggestion that the phenomena manifested by > Make-a-Wish in NE Arkansas may not be portable, and that the > kind of social change achieved requires other means in other > places. > After kind of touring the world, Horton went back, more or > less, to his home territory to set up the base to use adult > education as an instrument for social transformation. The > merits of beginning from your own roots is one of the > conclusions I drew from my years of ultraleft activity. In > the 1970s, all over the world, people of my generation who > had been radicalised in the mass movements of the 1960s > abandoned the professions they would otherwise have joined > after completing university and went to work in factories > based on convictions that this was where social > transformation could be achieved. A big mistake. Just like > in many countries our opposite numbers left the cities and > went into the countryside. Big mistake. > This was not a mistake made by the woman who is the > inspiration behind this obsession with Make-a-Wish in NE > Arkansas. She was a child who got her real wish fulfilled > and got better after being the subject of a Make-a-Wish > project, and what she decided to do with her life was lots > and lots of Make-a-Wish projects in her home town and > surrounds. Good decision. > Now, there is a strong sense of "Only in America" in this > story. I am not much of a theologian, having been raised by > Communists myself and never having been to Damascus. But I > think it could only be in a country so utterly steeped in > Christianity as rural U S of A that Make-a-Wish could so > grip entire communities. > In social democratic countries like Australia, Make-a-Wish > has a life, but it is not a big thing and nor is any variety > of philanthropy. When people want to do something to help > there is a powerful reflex which says that the proper way to > help is to get government or at the very least some kind of > statutory authority to take on the problem in a permanent, > universal commitment. Which does produce weird phenomena > from time to time. Whenever there is a tsunami or a famine, > Australians give billions on a personal basis and our > governments give very little. > Now this brings me to a puzzle which I have wrestled with > most of my life without resolution. Almost everyone I see > doing good, selfless community service, even including > self-help and community development work, is motivated by > religion. There are those of us who serve the community > motivated by secular ideals, but we are really a small > minority. This is a real conundrum for those of us motivated > by secular ideals because we rely on the idea that secular > ideals are powerful enough to motivate meaningful > life-projects which are not self-serving. > One of the attractions of Make-a-Wish is that it is a > project-of-projects. In fact, most of the participants > probably are not even conscious of an overall project, just > "Make-a-Wish". > None of the above goes to the key relation at the centre of > each Make-a-Wish project, the sick child. I am sure a > poet-psychologist could wax lyrical on that theme, but > that's not for me. The ability of the sick child to cut > through to the heart of every adult is surely universal. But > Jane Jacobs rated the obligation upon any adult to come to > the aid of any child on the pavement a key characteristic of > a healthy city and I agree. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 22/10/2015 1:33 AM, mike cole wrote: > > larry, Andy > > > > Does Horton's advice provide an explanation for the > > various phenomena on display in that video segment? > > > > I am a little lost here. > > mike > > > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Lplarry > > > wrote: > > > > Andy, > > The wisdom of Myles Norton. > > You must go back. Does this mean retreat or withdraw > > to a simple place? The question of the place being > > simple also seems relevant. > > Also the need for a goal. Is the type of goal required > > an *ethical* goal that is shared? > > THEN the movement and application will take its *own* > > form and structure once we have a place. > > It seems Myles Horton is trusting goals without > > blueprints that give pre/established answers. > > TRUSTING the place and the goals to open > > opportunities of possibility. A simple place > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Andy Blunden" > > > > Sent: ?2015-?10-?20 2:18 AM > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the > > social springs of giving > > > > I watched the story. > > I already knew about Make-a-Wish so it was no > > surprise, but > > Mike's point was of course the way MaW became a > > vehicle for > > a fantastic wave of building social fabric. > > XMCAers are all going to be interested in any idea > > which can > > lead to building this kind of *trust* in a community. > > Trust > > is basically what "social capital" is, but the point > > is only > > how does one go about *building* that trust? Robert Putnam > > says almost any doing-something-together will have this > > effect, and took choir groups as his typical example. > > Personally, I think MaW would do better than choir groups, > > but that's not the point. Putnam's own data in his > > original > > study in Italy actually showed that the best predictor of > > social capital was having a PCI local government, > > which was > > inconvenient for Putnam's theory, so he just excluded this > > from his results. > > The story this week in Australia has been about Tamworth, > > famous for an annual Country Music festival, but > > otherwise a > > typical remote outback town. It is now building a > > Pharmaceutical plant. How did this huge change happen? A > > young boy had bowel cancer and his mother, a good > > member of > > the Country Women's Association, discovered that cannabis > > was the only medication which relieved the pain and nausea > > the boy was suffering. She took up the cause. While > > illegally acquiring cannabis she started lobbying > > government > > to legalise medical cannabis and she won, though the whole > > business will take a year or so to implement. And Tamworth > > will be all set to market it. She has gathered a huge > > social > > movement and local support radiating out from Tamworth. > > My point. Make-a-Wish worked for North East Arkansas, > > partly > > because of one child who lived to champion it. Cannabis > > legalisation and production worked for Tamworth. > > As Myles Horton said: > > > > What you must do is go back, get a simple place, > > move in and you are there. The situation is there. > > You start with this and let it grow. You know your > > goal. It will build its own structure and take its > > own form. > > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > On 20/10/2015 4:00 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > What did you make of the CBS segment, Jay? Does it > > provide useful example > > > of principle of community's in Turner? > > > Mike > > > Mike > > > > > > On Monday, October 19, 2015, Jay Lemke > > > wrote: > > > > > >> For an interesting approach to "community", I'd > > recommend Edith Turner's > > >> "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor > > Turner's concept. > > >> > > >> JAY. > > >> > > >> > > >> Jay Lemke > > >> LCHC/Department of Communication > > >> University of California - San Diego > > >> www.jaylemke.com > > >> > > >> > > >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden > > > > >> > wrote: > > >> > > >>> Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > > >>> Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and > > developing an alternative > > >>> concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a > > suitable unit of > > >>> analysis was how I got started down the track I > > have been on ever since > > >>> then, about 2003. What is the difference between > > community as in all > > >> people > > >>> living in such and such town, and "real" > > community? Robert Putnam had > > >>> assembled evidence that almost any collective > > activity fosters what he > > >>> called "social capital." The problem was that he > > couldn't distinguish > > >>> between the mafia taking root in a community and a > > community taking > > >> control > > >>> of crime on its streets, etc. His classic > > "example" activity was the > > >>> formation of choir groups, proven promoters of > > collective "wealth". > > >>> > > >>> Andy > > >>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> *Andy Blunden* > > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > >>> > > >>> On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> I found a segment of the American weekly TV > > program, 60 minutes, more > > >> than > > >>>> usually interesting this evening, and one segment > > in particular > > >>>> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many > > different interests of people > > >> on > > >>>> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the > > "Make a Wish Foundation." > > >>>> > > >>>> Of the very many issues that the program > > discusses, one which I found > > >>>> particularly interesting was the ability of the > > organized practice of > > >>>> communities > > >>>> raising money to give seriously ill children "a > > last wish" is one that > > >> has > > >>>> particular relevance to questions about the > > mechanisms of social > > >>>> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, > > a relatively poor and > > >> out > > >>>> of the part of the US, people raise amazing > > amounts of money to provide > > >>>> special experience for kids who are dying of some > > disease that has not > > >>>> known current cure. What particularly caught my > > attention especially is > > >>>> the > > >>>> powerful effect that participation in the money > > raising and the > > >> ingenious > > >>>> social organization of the activities, has on > > community members across > > >>>> several generations, from peers to grandparents. > > In one sense, it seems > > >>>> that everything is so focuses on the individual > > kid that it is "just a > > >>>> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." > > If effects on the kids > > >> is > > >>>> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on > > the community pretty > > >>>> generally, and the emergence of strong personal > > bonds in particular that > > >>>> caught me most. > > >>>> > > >>>> Andy might find this interesting as an example of > > a project. > > >>>> > > >>>> mike > > >>>> > > >>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ > > click on make a > > >>>> wish > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural > > science with an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Wed Oct 21 20:07:13 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:07:13 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: <562850ff.44e5440a.940e2.248b@mx.google.com> References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> <562606BD.7030200@mira.net> <56273521.21bf440a.128a9.5fe5@mx.google.com> <5628334E.1070508@mira.net> <562850ff.44e5440a.940e2.248b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <562852E1.5020200@mira.net> The great thing about Jane Jacobs, Larry, is that this arose as part of a practical struggle to defend her city against its destruction by corporatist interests. I think her works are of profound philosophical significance, but her concerns were very practical. And creating communities with "eyes on the street" as she put it, a simple matter of laying out streets and buildings. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 22/10/2015 2:06 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > Andy, > > I want to stay with Jane Jacobs, and her description of > healthy cities. They are places where any adult would come > to the aid of any child on the pavement. > > Levinas said we are called to respond to the face of the > other. We can turn away but this is to retreat or withdraw > from the call. > > Andy I believe you are pointing out that different > traditions [religious and secular] can nurture our > capacity to not turn away from the other. > > I hear this as a question [not an answer]. How central are > *ethical* actions to healthy cities? > > We often say that discursive conversational, dialectical, > dialogical orientations [which are not foundational a > priori answers] are the places or spaces that generate > ethical actions. > > However is it possible that the *ethical* is the central > focus and our discursive, conversational, dialectical, > dialogical actions are ways of expressing our shared > *ethical* con - cerns. > > This fits with your understanding that because the USA is > still oriented to the Christian *ethical* while > Australia's *ethical* orientation is to turn to state > solutions as ways to answer the *ethical* QUESTION. > > The dialogical, discursive conversational approaches are > opening generative questions [in contrast to a priori > blueprint answers]. > > Your question that both the secular and religious > traditions can be vehicles which call us to respond [or > turn away] leaves open how we come to understand, > interpret, and apply *ethical* callings but is it possible > to find common *ethical*goals which honor religious and > secular orientations in a shared common sense? > > I will just mention as an aside that Habermas recently has > been engaged with these questions moving beyond > conversational rationality to re-engage the religious impulse. > > larry > > Sent from Mail > for Windows 10 > > > *From: *Greg Mcverry > *Sent: *Wednesday, October 21, 2015 6:02 PM > *To: *ablunden@mira.net;eXtended Mind, Culture, > Activity;mike cole > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the > social springs of giving > > I ran a fundraiser for my dying nephew. It meant so many > things to so many > > people. > > But mainly it provided a rallying cry, a sword against the > windmill of > > nature's indiscriminate hand. And for my brother and his > wife it provided a > > purpose for their son and the means to survive the > pitfalls of American > > healthcare. > > Made me think that spaces of grievance and hope are unique > networks of > > adult and community learning. > > That is what Make a Wish does. It provides a little bit a > hope in the face > > of a known and horrible destiny. > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 8:53 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > Mike, it is a suggestion that the phenomena manifested by > > > Make-a-Wish in NE Arkansas may not be portable, and that the > > > kind of social change achieved requires other means in other > > > places. > > > After kind of touring the world, Horton went back, more or > > > less, to his home territory to set up the base to use adult > > > education as an instrument for social transformation. The > > > merits of beginning from your own roots is one of the > > > conclusions I drew from my years of ultraleft activity. In > > > the 1970s, all over the world, people of my generation who > > > had been radicalised in the mass movements of the 1960s > > > abandoned the professions they would otherwise have joined > > > after completing university and went to work in factories > > > based on convictions that this was where social > > > transformation could be achieved. A big mistake. Just like > > > in many countries our opposite numbers left the cities and > > > went into the countryside. Big mistake. > > > This was not a mistake made by the woman who is the > > > inspiration behind this obsession with Make-a-Wish in NE > > > Arkansas. She was a child who got her real wish fulfilled > > > and got better after being the subject of a Make-a-Wish > > > project, and what she decided to do with her life was lots > > > and lots of Make-a-Wish projects in her home town and > > > surrounds. Good decision. > > > Now, there is a strong sense of "Only in America" in this > > > story. I am not much of a theologian, having been raised by > > > Communists myself and never having been to Damascus. But I > > > think it could only be in a country so utterly steeped in > > > Christianity as rural U S of A that Make-a-Wish could so > > > grip entire communities. > > > In social democratic countries like Australia, Make-a-Wish > > > has a life, but it is not a big thing and nor is any variety > > > of philanthropy. When people want to do something to help > > > there is a powerful reflex which says that the proper way to > > > help is to get government or at the very least some kind of > > > statutory authority to take on the problem in a permanent, > > > universal commitment. Which does produce weird phenomena > > > from time to time. Whenever there is a tsunami or a famine, > > > Australians give billions on a personal basis and our > > > governments give very little. > > > Now this brings me to a puzzle which I have wrestled with > > > most of my life without resolution. Almost everyone I see > > > doing good, selfless community service, even including > > > self-help and community development work, is motivated by > > > religion. There are those of us who serve the community > > > motivated by secular ideals, but we are really a small > > > minority. This is a real conundrum for those of us motivated > > > by secular ideals because we rely on the idea that secular > > > ideals are powerful enough to motivate meaningful > > > life-projects which are not self-serving. > > > One of the attractions of Make-a-Wish is that it is a > > > project-of-projects. In fact, most of the participants > > > probably are not even conscious of an overall project, just > > > "Make-a-Wish". > > > None of the above goes to the key relation at the centre of > > > each Make-a-Wish project, the sick child. I am sure a > > > poet-psychologist could wax lyrical on that theme, but > > > that's not for me. The ability of the sick child to cut > > > through to the heart of every adult is surely universal. But > > > Jane Jacobs rated the obligation upon any adult to come to > > > the aid of any child on the pavement a key characteristic of > > > a healthy city and I agree. > > > > > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > On 22/10/2015 1:33 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > larry, Andy > > > > > > > > Does Horton's advice provide an explanation for the > > > > various phenomena on display in that video segment? > > > > > > > > I am a little lost here. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Lplarry > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Andy, > > > > The wisdom of Myles Norton. > > > > You must go back. Does this mean retreat or withdraw > > > > to a simple place? The question of the place being > > > > simple also seems relevant. > > > > Also the need for a goal. Is the type of goal required > > > > an *ethical* goal that is shared? > > > > THEN the movement and application will take its *own* > > > > form and structure once we have a place. > > > > It seems Myles Horton is trusting goals without > > > > blueprints that give pre/established answers. > > > > TRUSTING the place and the goals to open > > > > opportunities of possibility. A simple place > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: "Andy Blunden" > > > > > > > > Sent: ?2015-?10-?20 2:18 AM > > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the > > > > social springs of giving > > > > > > > > I watched the story. > > > > I already knew about Make-a-Wish so it was no > > > > surprise, but > > > > Mike's point was of course the way MaW became a > > > > vehicle for > > > > a fantastic wave of building social fabric. > > > > XMCAers are all going to be interested in any idea > > > > which can > > > > lead to building this kind of *trust* in a community. > > > > Trust > > > > is basically what "social capital" is, but the point > > > > is only > > > > how does one go about *building* that trust? > Robert Putnam > > > > says almost any doing-something-together will have > this > > > > effect, and took choir groups as his typical example. > > > > Personally, I think MaW would do better than choir > groups, > > > > but that's not the point. Putnam's own data in his > > > > original > > > > study in Italy actually showed that the best > predictor of > > > > social capital was having a PCI local government, > > > > which was > > > > inconvenient for Putnam's theory, so he just > excluded this > > > > from his results. > > > > The story this week in Australia has been about > Tamworth, > > > > famous for an annual Country Music festival, but > > > > otherwise a > > > > typical remote outback town. It is now building a > > > > Pharmaceutical plant. How did this huge change > happen? A > > > > young boy had bowel cancer and his mother, a good > > > > member of > > > > the Country Women's Association, discovered that > cannabis > > > > was the only medication which relieved the pain > and nausea > > > > the boy was suffering. She took up the cause. While > > > > illegally acquiring cannabis she started lobbying > > > > government > > > > to legalise medical cannabis and she won, though > the whole > > > > business will take a year or so to implement. And > Tamworth > > > > will be all set to market it. She has gathered a huge > > > > social > > > > movement and local support radiating out from > Tamworth. > > > > My point. Make-a-Wish worked for North East Arkansas, > > > > partly > > > > because of one child who lived to champion it. > Cannabis > > > > legalisation and production worked for Tamworth. > > > > As Myles Horton said: > > > > > > > > What you must do is go back, get a simple > place, > > > > move in and you are there. The situation > is there. > > > > You start with this and let it grow. You > know your > > > > goal. It will build its own structure and > take its > > > > own form. > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > On 20/10/2015 4:00 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > What did you make of the CBS segment, Jay? Does it > > > > provide useful example > > > > > of principle of community's in Turner? > > > > > Mike > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, October 19, 2015, Jay Lemke > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> For an interesting approach to "community", I'd > > > > recommend Edith Turner's > > > > >> "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor > > > > Turner's concept. > > > > >> > > > > >> JAY. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Jay Lemke > > > > >> LCHC/Department of Communication > > > > >> University of California - San Diego > > > > >> www.jaylemke.com > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden > > > > > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > > > > >>> Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and > > > > developing an alternative > > > > >>> concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a > > > > suitable unit of > > > > >>> analysis was how I got started down the track I > > > > have been on ever since > > > > >>> then, about 2003. What is the difference between > > > > community as in all > > > > >> people > > > > >>> living in such and such town, and "real" > > > > community? Robert Putnam had > > > > >>> assembled evidence that almost any collective > > > > activity fosters what he > > > > >>> called "social capital." The problem was that he > > > > couldn't distinguish > > > > >>> between the mafia taking root in a community and a > > > > community taking > > > > >> control > > > > >>> of crime on its streets, etc. His classic > > > > "example" activity was the > > > > >>> formation of choir groups, proven promoters of > > > > collective "wealth". > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Andy > > > > >>> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > >>> *Andy Blunden* > > > > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>>> I found a segment of the American weekly TV > > > > program, 60 minutes, more > > > > >> than > > > > >>>> usually interesting this evening, and one segment > > > > in particular > > > > >>>> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many > > > > different interests of people > > > > >> on > > > > >>>> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the > > > > "Make a Wish Foundation." > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Of the very many issues that the program > > > > discusses, one which I found > > > > >>>> particularly interesting was the ability of the > > > > organized practice of > > > > >>>> communities > > > > >>>> raising money to give seriously ill children "a > > > > last wish" is one that > > > > >> has > > > > >>>> particular relevance to questions about the > > > > mechanisms of social > > > > >>>> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, > > > > a relatively poor and > > > > >> out > > > > >>>> of the part of the US, people raise amazing > > > > amounts of money to provide > > > > >>>> special experience for kids who are dying of some > > > > disease that has not > > > > >>>> known current cure. What particularly caught my > > > > attention especially is > > > > >>>> the > > > > >>>> powerful effect that participation in the money > > > > raising and the > > > > >> ingenious > > > > >>>> social organization of the activities, has on > > > > community members across > > > > >>>> several generations, from peers to grandparents. > > > > In one sense, it seems > > > > >>>> that everything is so focuses on the individual > > > > kid that it is "just a > > > > >>>> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." > > > > If effects on the kids > > > > >> is > > > > >>>> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on > > > > the community pretty > > > > >>>> generally, and the emergence of strong personal > > > > bonds in particular that > > > > >>>> caught me most. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Andy might find this interesting as an example of > > > > a project. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> mike > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ > > > > click on make a > > > > >>>> wish > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural > > > > science with an > > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Thu Oct 22 03:45:07 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 06:45:07 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Seeking Editors for Cultural Sociology Journal Message-ID: Sent on a Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note? II
-------- Original message --------
From: Alison Danforth
Date:10/22/2015 6:09 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: pmocombe@mocombeian.com
Subject: Seeking Editors for Cultural Sociology Journal
*Apologies for cross-posting* Cultural Sociology: Seeking New Editors Would you like to edit a BSA journal? Are you interested in making a significant contribution to the development of Cultural Sociology? If yes, let us know! The BSA and SAGE would like to hear from Editorial Teams interested in editing the journal Cultural Sociology, for a 5-year period from April 2016 to March 2021. Cultural Sociology (CUS) is currently in its 9th year of publication, and is a respected journal with an international profile. It publishes 4 times a year, with regular special issues. The journal carries research in all areas of cultural sociology and the sociology of culture, and seeks to be a central forum for scholarly work in those areas globally. The editorial team will shape the future intellectual profile of the journal and will drive its development. In doing so, they will make an important contribution to the working of the BSA, to SAGE?s profile in sociology journal publishing, and to the wider discipline of sociology. For more information see the full Call for Expressions of Interest on the BSA website. Deadline for expressions of interest: 16 November 2015. ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by TSG Cloud Based Mail Security. For more information please visit http://www.tsg.com/product/anti-virus-anti-spam ______________________________________________________________________ From daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com Thu Oct 22 06:18:35 2015 From: daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com (Daniel Hyman) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 09:18:35 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: <5628334E.1070508@mira.net> References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> <562606BD.7030200@mira.net> <56273521.21bf440a.128a9.5fe5@mx.google.com> <5628334E.1070508@mira.net> Message-ID: Highly illuminating, Andy, thank you! A semantic quibble and a brief personal story: - "Go back" could mean, as well as "retreat" or "withdraw", "return". A subtle but key shade of meaning. - I have just returned to New York from a remarkable year in Kiev. Easily its most meaningful and rewarding aspect, was being invited to weekly services as cantor of the main Progressive synagogue in Ukraine, Atikva Tsentr. (No ordination, no problem.) Judaism is called a religion, but to my mind (and others') ill fits that category. Atikva is a vibrant cultural and social community. It stands, phoenix-like, within walking distance of Babiy Yar. I suppose one could call my affinity there "religious". Theology or faith per se, however, had very little to do with it. Belonging, thriving, making music and friends there, was a case of being both 5,000 miles from home, and right at home. Social capital emerged from thin air, every Saturday morning. On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Mike, it is a suggestion that the phenomena manifested by Make-a-Wish in > NE Arkansas may not be portable, and that the kind of social change > achieved requires other means in other places. > After kind of touring the world, Horton went back, more or less, to his > home territory to set up the base to use adult education as an instrument > for social transformation. The merits of beginning from your own roots is > one of the conclusions I drew from my years of ultraleft activity. In the > 1970s, all over the world, people of my generation who had been radicalised > in the mass movements of the 1960s abandoned the professions they would > otherwise have joined after completing university and went to work in > factories based on convictions that this was where social transformation > could be achieved. A big mistake. Just like in many countries our opposite > numbers left the cities and went into the countryside. Big mistake. > This was not a mistake made by the woman who is the inspiration behind > this obsession with Make-a-Wish in NE Arkansas. She was a child who got her > real wish fulfilled and got better after being the subject of a Make-a-Wish > project, and what she decided to do with her life was lots and lots of > Make-a-Wish projects in her home town and surrounds. Good decision. > Now, there is a strong sense of "Only in America" in this story. I am not > much of a theologian, having been raised by Communists myself and never > having been to Damascus. But I think it could only be in a country so > utterly steeped in Christianity as rural U S of A that Make-a-Wish could so > grip entire communities. > In social democratic countries like Australia, Make-a-Wish has a life, but > it is not a big thing and nor is any variety of philanthropy. When people > want to do something to help there is a powerful reflex which says that the > proper way to help is to get government or at the very least some kind of > statutory authority to take on the problem in a permanent, universal > commitment. Which does produce weird phenomena from time to time. Whenever > there is a tsunami or a famine, Australians give billions on a personal > basis and our governments give very little. > Now this brings me to a puzzle which I have wrestled with most of my life > without resolution. Almost everyone I see doing good, selfless community > service, even including self-help and community development work, is > motivated by religion. There are those of us who serve the community > motivated by secular ideals, but we are really a small minority. This is a > real conundrum for those of us motivated by secular ideals because we rely > on the idea that secular ideals are powerful enough to motivate meaningful > life-projects which are not self-serving. > One of the attractions of Make-a-Wish is that it is a project-of-projects. > In fact, most of the participants probably are not even conscious of an > overall project, just "Make-a-Wish". > None of the above goes to the key relation at the centre of each > Make-a-Wish project, the sick child. I am sure a poet-psychologist could > wax lyrical on that theme, but that's not for me. The ability of the sick > child to cut through to the heart of every adult is surely universal. But > Jane Jacobs rated the obligation upon any adult to come to the aid of any > child on the pavement a key characteristic of a healthy city and I agree. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 22/10/2015 1:33 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> larry, Andy >> >> Does Horton's advice provide an explanation for the various phenomena on >> display in that video segment? >> >> I am a little lost here. >> mike >> >> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Lplarry > lpscholar2@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Andy, >> The wisdom of Myles Norton. >> You must go back. Does this mean retreat or withdraw >> to a simple place? The question of the place being >> simple also seems relevant. >> Also the need for a goal. Is the type of goal required >> an *ethical* goal that is shared? >> THEN the movement and application will take its *own* >> form and structure once we have a place. >> It seems Myles Horton is trusting goals without >> blueprints that give pre/established answers. >> TRUSTING the place and the goals to open >> opportunities of possibility. A simple place >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Andy Blunden" > > >> Sent: ?2015-?10-?20 2:18 AM >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the >> social springs of giving >> >> I watched the story. >> I already knew about Make-a-Wish so it was no >> surprise, but >> Mike's point was of course the way MaW became a >> vehicle for >> a fantastic wave of building social fabric. >> XMCAers are all going to be interested in any idea >> which can >> lead to building this kind of *trust* in a community. >> Trust >> is basically what "social capital" is, but the point >> is only >> how does one go about *building* that trust? Robert Putnam >> says almost any doing-something-together will have this >> effect, and took choir groups as his typical example. >> Personally, I think MaW would do better than choir groups, >> but that's not the point. Putnam's own data in his >> original >> study in Italy actually showed that the best predictor of >> social capital was having a PCI local government, >> which was >> inconvenient for Putnam's theory, so he just excluded this >> from his results. >> The story this week in Australia has been about Tamworth, >> famous for an annual Country Music festival, but >> otherwise a >> typical remote outback town. It is now building a >> Pharmaceutical plant. How did this huge change happen? A >> young boy had bowel cancer and his mother, a good >> member of >> the Country Women's Association, discovered that cannabis >> was the only medication which relieved the pain and nausea >> the boy was suffering. She took up the cause. While >> illegally acquiring cannabis she started lobbying >> government >> to legalise medical cannabis and she won, though the whole >> business will take a year or so to implement. And Tamworth >> will be all set to market it. She has gathered a huge >> social >> movement and local support radiating out from Tamworth. >> My point. Make-a-Wish worked for North East Arkansas, >> partly >> because of one child who lived to champion it. Cannabis >> legalisation and production worked for Tamworth. >> As Myles Horton said: >> >> What you must do is go back, get a simple place, >> move in and you are there. The situation is there. >> You start with this and let it grow. You know your >> goal. It will build its own structure and take its >> own form. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> On 20/10/2015 4:00 AM, mike cole wrote: >> > What did you make of the CBS segment, Jay? Does it >> provide useful example >> > of principle of community's in Turner? >> > Mike >> > Mike >> > >> > On Monday, October 19, 2015, Jay Lemke >> > wrote: >> > >> >> For an interesting approach to "community", I'd >> recommend Edith Turner's >> >> "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor >> Turner's concept. >> >> >> >> JAY. >> >> >> >> >> >> Jay Lemke >> >> LCHC/Department of Communication >> >> University of California - San Diego >> >> www.jaylemke.com >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden >> >> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >>> Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. >> >>> Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and >> developing an alternative >> >>> concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a >> suitable unit of >> >>> analysis was how I got started down the track I >> have been on ever since >> >>> then, about 2003. What is the difference between >> community as in all >> >> people >> >>> living in such and such town, and "real" >> community? Robert Putnam had >> >>> assembled evidence that almost any collective >> activity fosters what he >> >>> called "social capital." The problem was that he >> couldn't distinguish >> >>> between the mafia taking root in a community and a >> community taking >> >> control >> >>> of crime on its streets, etc. His classic >> "example" activity was the >> >>> formation of choir groups, proven promoters of >> collective "wealth". >> >>> >> >>> Andy >> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>> *Andy Blunden* >> >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >>> >> >>> On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> I found a segment of the American weekly TV >> program, 60 minutes, more >> >> than >> >>>> usually interesting this evening, and one segment >> in particular >> >>>> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many >> different interests of people >> >> on >> >>>> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the >> "Make a Wish Foundation." >> >>>> >> >>>> Of the very many issues that the program >> discusses, one which I found >> >>>> particularly interesting was the ability of the >> organized practice of >> >>>> communities >> >>>> raising money to give seriously ill children "a >> last wish" is one that >> >> has >> >>>> particular relevance to questions about the >> mechanisms of social >> >>>> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, >> a relatively poor and >> >> out >> >>>> of the part of the US, people raise amazing >> amounts of money to provide >> >>>> special experience for kids who are dying of some >> disease that has not >> >>>> known current cure. What particularly caught my >> attention especially is >> >>>> the >> >>>> powerful effect that participation in the money >> raising and the >> >> ingenious >> >>>> social organization of the activities, has on >> community members across >> >>>> several generations, from peers to grandparents. >> In one sense, it seems >> >>>> that everything is so focuses on the individual >> kid that it is "just a >> >>>> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." >> If effects on the kids >> >> is >> >>>> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on >> the community pretty >> >>>> generally, and the emergence of strong personal >> bonds in particular that >> >>>> caught me most. >> >>>> >> >>>> Andy might find this interesting as an example of >> a project. >> >>>> >> >>>> mike >> >>>> >> >>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ >> click on make a >> >>>> wish >> >>>> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >> >> >> > From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu Oct 22 09:05:43 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:05:43 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> <562606BD.7030200@mira.net> <56273521.21bf440a.128a9.5fe5@mx.google.com> <5628334E.1070508@mira.net> Message-ID: <4A40A5D6-B58A-498F-B281-C628B18E4B0D@gmail.com> I am not Jewish, but rather Jew-ish, according to the Rabbi (a woman) of our congregation Nahalat Shalom (which means ?inheritance of peace?), a Jewish Renewal congregation here in Albuquerque. My wife, who is Jewish, and I joined the congregation because of our son, and probably would have remained lapsed Jew and Christian, respectively, except for him. This is not unusual for couples in the U.S. Amongst ?lapsed? couples, those with children are much more likely to go back to church than those without children. It?s very much about the children. Just as Make a Wish is. On the other hand, it?s worth pointing out how we in the U.S. love heroic measures, and put massive resources into saving lives, starving programs that focus on wellness, physically and mentally. Medical specialists (oncologists, for example) are paid vastly more than family docs. Henry > On Oct 22, 2015, at 7:18 AM, Daniel Hyman wrote: > > Highly illuminating, Andy, thank you! > > A semantic quibble and a brief personal story: > > - "Go back" could mean, as well as "retreat" or "withdraw", "return". A > subtle but key shade of meaning. > > - I have just returned to New York from a remarkable year in Kiev. Easily > its most meaningful and rewarding aspect, was being invited to weekly > services as cantor of the main Progressive synagogue in Ukraine, > Atikva Tsentr. (No ordination, no problem.) Judaism is called a religion, > but to my mind (and others') ill fits that category. Atikva is a vibrant > cultural and social community. It stands, phoenix-like, within walking > distance of Babiy Yar. I suppose one could call my affinity there > "religious". Theology or faith per se, however, had very little to do with > it. Belonging, thriving, making music and friends there, was a case of > being both 5,000 miles from home, and right at home. Social capital emerged > from thin air, every Saturday morning. > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Mike, it is a suggestion that the phenomena manifested by Make-a-Wish in >> NE Arkansas may not be portable, and that the kind of social change >> achieved requires other means in other places. >> After kind of touring the world, Horton went back, more or less, to his >> home territory to set up the base to use adult education as an instrument >> for social transformation. The merits of beginning from your own roots is >> one of the conclusions I drew from my years of ultraleft activity. In the >> 1970s, all over the world, people of my generation who had been radicalised >> in the mass movements of the 1960s abandoned the professions they would >> otherwise have joined after completing university and went to work in >> factories based on convictions that this was where social transformation >> could be achieved. A big mistake. Just like in many countries our opposite >> numbers left the cities and went into the countryside. Big mistake. >> This was not a mistake made by the woman who is the inspiration behind >> this obsession with Make-a-Wish in NE Arkansas. She was a child who got her >> real wish fulfilled and got better after being the subject of a Make-a-Wish >> project, and what she decided to do with her life was lots and lots of >> Make-a-Wish projects in her home town and surrounds. Good decision. >> Now, there is a strong sense of "Only in America" in this story. I am not >> much of a theologian, having been raised by Communists myself and never >> having been to Damascus. But I think it could only be in a country so >> utterly steeped in Christianity as rural U S of A that Make-a-Wish could so >> grip entire communities. >> In social democratic countries like Australia, Make-a-Wish has a life, but >> it is not a big thing and nor is any variety of philanthropy. When people >> want to do something to help there is a powerful reflex which says that the >> proper way to help is to get government or at the very least some kind of >> statutory authority to take on the problem in a permanent, universal >> commitment. Which does produce weird phenomena from time to time. Whenever >> there is a tsunami or a famine, Australians give billions on a personal >> basis and our governments give very little. >> Now this brings me to a puzzle which I have wrestled with most of my life >> without resolution. Almost everyone I see doing good, selfless community >> service, even including self-help and community development work, is >> motivated by religion. There are those of us who serve the community >> motivated by secular ideals, but we are really a small minority. This is a >> real conundrum for those of us motivated by secular ideals because we rely >> on the idea that secular ideals are powerful enough to motivate meaningful >> life-projects which are not self-serving. >> One of the attractions of Make-a-Wish is that it is a project-of-projects. >> In fact, most of the participants probably are not even conscious of an >> overall project, just "Make-a-Wish". >> None of the above goes to the key relation at the centre of each >> Make-a-Wish project, the sick child. I am sure a poet-psychologist could >> wax lyrical on that theme, but that's not for me. The ability of the sick >> child to cut through to the heart of every adult is surely universal. But >> Jane Jacobs rated the obligation upon any adult to come to the aid of any >> child on the pavement a key characteristic of a healthy city and I agree. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> On 22/10/2015 1:33 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> larry, Andy >>> >>> Does Horton's advice provide an explanation for the various phenomena on >>> display in that video segment? >>> >>> I am a little lost here. >>> mike >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Lplarry >> lpscholar2@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Andy, >>> The wisdom of Myles Norton. >>> You must go back. Does this mean retreat or withdraw >>> to a simple place? The question of the place being >>> simple also seems relevant. >>> Also the need for a goal. Is the type of goal required >>> an *ethical* goal that is shared? >>> THEN the movement and application will take its *own* >>> form and structure once we have a place. >>> It seems Myles Horton is trusting goals without >>> blueprints that give pre/established answers. >>> TRUSTING the place and the goals to open >>> opportunities of possibility. A simple place >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "Andy Blunden" >> > >>> Sent: ?2015-?10-?20 2:18 AM >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the >>> social springs of giving >>> >>> I watched the story. >>> I already knew about Make-a-Wish so it was no >>> surprise, but >>> Mike's point was of course the way MaW became a >>> vehicle for >>> a fantastic wave of building social fabric. >>> XMCAers are all going to be interested in any idea >>> which can >>> lead to building this kind of *trust* in a community. >>> Trust >>> is basically what "social capital" is, but the point >>> is only >>> how does one go about *building* that trust? Robert Putnam >>> says almost any doing-something-together will have this >>> effect, and took choir groups as his typical example. >>> Personally, I think MaW would do better than choir groups, >>> but that's not the point. Putnam's own data in his >>> original >>> study in Italy actually showed that the best predictor of >>> social capital was having a PCI local government, >>> which was >>> inconvenient for Putnam's theory, so he just excluded this >>> from his results. >>> The story this week in Australia has been about Tamworth, >>> famous for an annual Country Music festival, but >>> otherwise a >>> typical remote outback town. It is now building a >>> Pharmaceutical plant. How did this huge change happen? A >>> young boy had bowel cancer and his mother, a good >>> member of >>> the Country Women's Association, discovered that cannabis >>> was the only medication which relieved the pain and nausea >>> the boy was suffering. She took up the cause. While >>> illegally acquiring cannabis she started lobbying >>> government >>> to legalise medical cannabis and she won, though the whole >>> business will take a year or so to implement. And Tamworth >>> will be all set to market it. She has gathered a huge >>> social >>> movement and local support radiating out from Tamworth. >>> My point. Make-a-Wish worked for North East Arkansas, >>> partly >>> because of one child who lived to champion it. Cannabis >>> legalisation and production worked for Tamworth. >>> As Myles Horton said: >>> >>> What you must do is go back, get a simple place, >>> move in and you are there. The situation is there. >>> You start with this and let it grow. You know your >>> goal. It will build its own structure and take its >>> own form. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> On 20/10/2015 4:00 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>> What did you make of the CBS segment, Jay? Does it >>> provide useful example >>>> of principle of community's in Turner? >>>> Mike >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> On Monday, October 19, 2015, Jay Lemke >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> For an interesting approach to "community", I'd >>> recommend Edith Turner's >>>>> "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor >>> Turner's concept. >>>>> >>>>> JAY. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jay Lemke >>>>> LCHC/Department of Communication >>>>> University of California - San Diego >>>>> www.jaylemke.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden >>> >>> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. >>>>>> Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and >>> developing an alternative >>>>>> concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a >>> suitable unit of >>>>>> analysis was how I got started down the track I >>> have been on ever since >>>>>> then, about 2003. What is the difference between >>> community as in all >>>>> people >>>>>> living in such and such town, and "real" >>> community? Robert Putnam had >>>>>> assembled evidence that almost any collective >>> activity fosters what he >>>>>> called "social capital." The problem was that he >>> couldn't distinguish >>>>>> between the mafia taking root in a community and a >>> community taking >>>>> control >>>>>> of crime on its streets, etc. His classic >>> "example" activity was the >>>>>> formation of choir groups, proven promoters of >>> collective "wealth". >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I found a segment of the American weekly TV >>> program, 60 minutes, more >>>>> than >>>>>>> usually interesting this evening, and one segment >>> in particular >>>>>>> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many >>> different interests of people >>>>> on >>>>>>> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the >>> "Make a Wish Foundation." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of the very many issues that the program >>> discusses, one which I found >>>>>>> particularly interesting was the ability of the >>> organized practice of >>>>>>> communities >>>>>>> raising money to give seriously ill children "a >>> last wish" is one that >>>>> has >>>>>>> particular relevance to questions about the >>> mechanisms of social >>>>>>> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, >>> a relatively poor and >>>>> out >>>>>>> of the part of the US, people raise amazing >>> amounts of money to provide >>>>>>> special experience for kids who are dying of some >>> disease that has not >>>>>>> known current cure. What particularly caught my >>> attention especially is >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> powerful effect that participation in the money >>> raising and the >>>>> ingenious >>>>>>> social organization of the activities, has on >>> community members across >>>>>>> several generations, from peers to grandparents. >>> In one sense, it seems >>>>>>> that everything is so focuses on the individual >>> kid that it is "just a >>>>>>> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." >>> If effects on the kids >>>>> is >>>>>>> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on >>> the community pretty >>>>>>> generally, and the emergence of strong personal >>> bonds in particular that >>>>>>> caught me most. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy might find this interesting as an example of >>> a project. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ >>> click on make a >>>>>>> wish >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>> >>> >>> >>> >> From lemke.jay@gmail.com Thu Oct 22 09:26:34 2015 From: lemke.jay@gmail.com (Jay Lemke) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 09:26:34 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> <562606BD.7030200@mira.net> <56273521.21bf440a.128a9.5fe5@mx.google.com> <5628334E.1070508@mira.net> Message-ID: A follow-up thought about the question of religious motivation for altruistic participation in that Arkansas community. In small towns like that in that part of the US, it's fairly normal to have regular participation in church activities. Churches frequently organize philanthropic and community support activities such as visits to sick church members, help for families in need, and so on. I believe this develops a habitus or normal disposition for participating in such community activities. Although it would be common for people to justify their participation using religious language, I don't think we need to assume a direct religious motivation for participation such as with Make a Wish. It seems enough that people have developed the habit of participating in similar activities through lifelong churchgoing. Even the habit of putting a dollar in the collection plate on Sunday provides a template for putting a dollar in the Make a Wish collection box. I offered this observation because although it is important to assess the role of religious belief in altruistic behavior, I think we need to distinguish action based on such belief from habits of community solidarity that depend more on participation in the activities of a church community, which may not be specifically based in religious belief as such. JAY. Jay Lemke LCHC/Department of Communication University of California - San Diego www.jaylemke.com On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 6:18 AM, Daniel Hyman wrote: > Highly illuminating, Andy, thank you! > > A semantic quibble and a brief personal story: > > - "Go back" could mean, as well as "retreat" or "withdraw", "return". A > subtle but key shade of meaning. > > - I have just returned to New York from a remarkable year in Kiev. Easily > its most meaningful and rewarding aspect, was being invited to weekly > services as cantor of the main Progressive synagogue in Ukraine, > Atikva Tsentr. (No ordination, no problem.) Judaism is called a religion, > but to my mind (and others') ill fits that category. Atikva is a vibrant > cultural and social community. It stands, phoenix-like, within walking > distance of Babiy Yar. I suppose one could call my affinity there > "religious". Theology or faith per se, however, had very little to do with > it. Belonging, thriving, making music and friends there, was a case of > being both 5,000 miles from home, and right at home. Social capital emerged > from thin air, every Saturday morning. > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > Mike, it is a suggestion that the phenomena manifested by Make-a-Wish in > > NE Arkansas may not be portable, and that the kind of social change > > achieved requires other means in other places. > > After kind of touring the world, Horton went back, more or less, to his > > home territory to set up the base to use adult education as an instrument > > for social transformation. The merits of beginning from your own roots is > > one of the conclusions I drew from my years of ultraleft activity. In the > > 1970s, all over the world, people of my generation who had been > radicalised > > in the mass movements of the 1960s abandoned the professions they would > > otherwise have joined after completing university and went to work in > > factories based on convictions that this was where social transformation > > could be achieved. A big mistake. Just like in many countries our > opposite > > numbers left the cities and went into the countryside. Big mistake. > > This was not a mistake made by the woman who is the inspiration behind > > this obsession with Make-a-Wish in NE Arkansas. She was a child who got > her > > real wish fulfilled and got better after being the subject of a > Make-a-Wish > > project, and what she decided to do with her life was lots and lots of > > Make-a-Wish projects in her home town and surrounds. Good decision. > > Now, there is a strong sense of "Only in America" in this story. I am not > > much of a theologian, having been raised by Communists myself and never > > having been to Damascus. But I think it could only be in a country so > > utterly steeped in Christianity as rural U S of A that Make-a-Wish could > so > > grip entire communities. > > In social democratic countries like Australia, Make-a-Wish has a life, > but > > it is not a big thing and nor is any variety of philanthropy. When people > > want to do something to help there is a powerful reflex which says that > the > > proper way to help is to get government or at the very least some kind of > > statutory authority to take on the problem in a permanent, universal > > commitment. Which does produce weird phenomena from time to time. > Whenever > > there is a tsunami or a famine, Australians give billions on a personal > > basis and our governments give very little. > > Now this brings me to a puzzle which I have wrestled with most of my life > > without resolution. Almost everyone I see doing good, selfless community > > service, even including self-help and community development work, is > > motivated by religion. There are those of us who serve the community > > motivated by secular ideals, but we are really a small minority. This is > a > > real conundrum for those of us motivated by secular ideals because we > rely > > on the idea that secular ideals are powerful enough to motivate > meaningful > > life-projects which are not self-serving. > > One of the attractions of Make-a-Wish is that it is a > project-of-projects. > > In fact, most of the participants probably are not even conscious of an > > overall project, just "Make-a-Wish". > > None of the above goes to the key relation at the centre of each > > Make-a-Wish project, the sick child. I am sure a poet-psychologist could > > wax lyrical on that theme, but that's not for me. The ability of the sick > > child to cut through to the heart of every adult is surely universal. But > > Jane Jacobs rated the obligation upon any adult to come to the aid of any > > child on the pavement a key characteristic of a healthy city and I agree. > > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > On 22/10/2015 1:33 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> larry, Andy > >> > >> Does Horton's advice provide an explanation for the various phenomena on > >> display in that video segment? > >> > >> I am a little lost here. > >> mike > >> > >> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Lplarry >> lpscholar2@gmail.com>> wrote: > >> > >> Andy, > >> The wisdom of Myles Norton. > >> You must go back. Does this mean retreat or withdraw > >> to a simple place? The question of the place being > >> simple also seems relevant. > >> Also the need for a goal. Is the type of goal required > >> an *ethical* goal that is shared? > >> THEN the movement and application will take its *own* > >> form and structure once we have a place. > >> It seems Myles Horton is trusting goals without > >> blueprints that give pre/established answers. > >> TRUSTING the place and the goals to open > >> opportunities of possibility. A simple place > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: "Andy Blunden" >> > > >> Sent: ?2015-?10-?20 2:18 AM > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >> > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the > >> social springs of giving > >> > >> I watched the story. > >> I already knew about Make-a-Wish so it was no > >> surprise, but > >> Mike's point was of course the way MaW became a > >> vehicle for > >> a fantastic wave of building social fabric. > >> XMCAers are all going to be interested in any idea > >> which can > >> lead to building this kind of *trust* in a community. > >> Trust > >> is basically what "social capital" is, but the point > >> is only > >> how does one go about *building* that trust? Robert Putnam > >> says almost any doing-something-together will have this > >> effect, and took choir groups as his typical example. > >> Personally, I think MaW would do better than choir groups, > >> but that's not the point. Putnam's own data in his > >> original > >> study in Italy actually showed that the best predictor of > >> social capital was having a PCI local government, > >> which was > >> inconvenient for Putnam's theory, so he just excluded this > >> from his results. > >> The story this week in Australia has been about Tamworth, > >> famous for an annual Country Music festival, but > >> otherwise a > >> typical remote outback town. It is now building a > >> Pharmaceutical plant. How did this huge change happen? A > >> young boy had bowel cancer and his mother, a good > >> member of > >> the Country Women's Association, discovered that cannabis > >> was the only medication which relieved the pain and nausea > >> the boy was suffering. She took up the cause. While > >> illegally acquiring cannabis she started lobbying > >> government > >> to legalise medical cannabis and she won, though the whole > >> business will take a year or so to implement. And Tamworth > >> will be all set to market it. She has gathered a huge > >> social > >> movement and local support radiating out from Tamworth. > >> My point. Make-a-Wish worked for North East Arkansas, > >> partly > >> because of one child who lived to champion it. Cannabis > >> legalisation and production worked for Tamworth. > >> As Myles Horton said: > >> > >> What you must do is go back, get a simple place, > >> move in and you are there. The situation is there. > >> You start with this and let it grow. You know your > >> goal. It will build its own structure and take its > >> own form. > >> > >> Andy > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> On 20/10/2015 4:00 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> > What did you make of the CBS segment, Jay? Does it > >> provide useful example > >> > of principle of community's in Turner? > >> > Mike > >> > Mike > >> > > >> > On Monday, October 19, 2015, Jay Lemke > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> For an interesting approach to "community", I'd > >> recommend Edith Turner's > >> >> "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor > >> Turner's concept. > >> >> > >> >> JAY. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Jay Lemke > >> >> LCHC/Department of Communication > >> >> University of California - San Diego > >> >> www.jaylemke.com > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden > >> > >> > >> >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > >> >>> Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and > >> developing an alternative > >> >>> concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a > >> suitable unit of > >> >>> analysis was how I got started down the track I > >> have been on ever since > >> >>> then, about 2003. What is the difference between > >> community as in all > >> >> people > >> >>> living in such and such town, and "real" > >> community? Robert Putnam had > >> >>> assembled evidence that almost any collective > >> activity fosters what he > >> >>> called "social capital." The problem was that he > >> couldn't distinguish > >> >>> between the mafia taking root in a community and a > >> community taking > >> >> control > >> >>> of crime on its streets, etc. His classic > >> "example" activity was the > >> >>> formation of choir groups, proven promoters of > >> collective "wealth". > >> >>> > >> >>> Andy > >> >>> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >>> *Andy Blunden* > >> >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> >>> > >> >>> On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>> I found a segment of the American weekly TV > >> program, 60 minutes, more > >> >> than > >> >>>> usually interesting this evening, and one segment > >> in particular > >> >>>> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many > >> different interests of people > >> >> on > >> >>>> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the > >> "Make a Wish Foundation." > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Of the very many issues that the program > >> discusses, one which I found > >> >>>> particularly interesting was the ability of the > >> organized practice of > >> >>>> communities > >> >>>> raising money to give seriously ill children "a > >> last wish" is one that > >> >> has > >> >>>> particular relevance to questions about the > >> mechanisms of social > >> >>>> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, > >> a relatively poor and > >> >> out > >> >>>> of the part of the US, people raise amazing > >> amounts of money to provide > >> >>>> special experience for kids who are dying of some > >> disease that has not > >> >>>> known current cure. What particularly caught my > >> attention especially is > >> >>>> the > >> >>>> powerful effect that participation in the money > >> raising and the > >> >> ingenious > >> >>>> social organization of the activities, has on > >> community members across > >> >>>> several generations, from peers to grandparents. > >> In one sense, it seems > >> >>>> that everything is so focuses on the individual > >> kid that it is "just a > >> >>>> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." > >> If effects on the kids > >> >> is > >> >>>> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on > >> the community pretty > >> >>>> generally, and the emergence of strong personal > >> bonds in particular that > >> >>>> caught me most. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Andy might find this interesting as an example of > >> a project. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> mike > >> >>>> > >> >>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ > >> click on make a > >> >>>> wish > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Oct 22 09:43:06 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 16:43:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: <5628334E.1070508@mira.net> References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> <562606BD.7030200@mira.net> <56273521.21bf440a.128a9.5fe5@mx.google.com> <5628334E.1070508@mira.net> Message-ID: <9840925A-1B03-42EC-86A8-0AAE58E3D0BC@uniandes.edu.co> Andy, Make-A-Wish seems to have chapters in every US state, plus "39 affiliates, serving children in nearly 50 countries on five continents." Martin On Oct 21, 2015, at 7:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Mike, it is a suggestion that the phenomena manifested by Make-a-Wish in NE Arkansas may not be portable, and that the kind of social change achieved requires other means in other places. From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu Oct 22 13:37:17 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:37:17 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> <562606BD.7030200@mira.net> <56273521.21bf440a.128a9.5fe5@mx.google.com> <5628334E.1070508@mira.net> Message-ID: <79F39502-84F4-4F57-BF57-96E92AFEE29B@gmail.com> I agree with Jay from a Jew-ish perspective. My wife?s mom is a ?cultural" Jew, regularly attends services and maintains close ties with friends and an extended Jewish family. To the extent that she believes in a god, not much, she does not believe in the efficacy of prayer. To that watered-down religious motive for affiliation with ?her kind? I would add a well-earned persecution complex. Who can you trust? There are a lot of Christians, especially on the right of the political perspective, who believe they are persecuted for their beliefs. Not so well earned from my perspective, but they aren?t listening to me. On a lighter note, but still on the theme of religion, Senator Bernie Sanders (a Jew), who is running for President as a Democrat, has labeled himself a socialist. He also has said that we celebrate the birth of the biggest Jewish socialist of all time every year at Christmas. :) Henry > On Oct 22, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Jay Lemke wrote: > > A follow-up thought about the question of religious motivation for > altruistic participation in that Arkansas community. In small towns like > that in that part of the US, it's fairly normal to have regular > participation in church activities. Churches frequently organize > philanthropic and community support activities such as visits to sick > church members, help for families in need, and so on. > > I believe this develops a habitus or normal disposition for participating > in such community activities. Although it would be common for people to > justify their participation using religious language, I don't think we need > to assume a direct religious motivation for participation such as with Make > a Wish. It seems enough that people have developed the habit of > participating in similar activities through lifelong churchgoing. Even the > habit of putting a dollar in the collection plate on Sunday provides a > template for putting a dollar in the Make a Wish collection box. > > I offered this observation because although it is important to assess the > role of religious belief in altruistic behavior, I think we need to > distinguish action based on such belief from habits of community solidarity > that depend more on participation in the activities of a church community, > which may not be specifically based in religious belief as such. > > JAY. > > > Jay Lemke > LCHC/Department of Communication > University of California - San Diego > www.jaylemke.com > > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 6:18 AM, Daniel Hyman > wrote: > >> Highly illuminating, Andy, thank you! >> >> A semantic quibble and a brief personal story: >> >> - "Go back" could mean, as well as "retreat" or "withdraw", "return". A >> subtle but key shade of meaning. >> >> - I have just returned to New York from a remarkable year in Kiev. Easily >> its most meaningful and rewarding aspect, was being invited to weekly >> services as cantor of the main Progressive synagogue in Ukraine, >> Atikva Tsentr. (No ordination, no problem.) Judaism is called a religion, >> but to my mind (and others') ill fits that category. Atikva is a vibrant >> cultural and social community. It stands, phoenix-like, within walking >> distance of Babiy Yar. I suppose one could call my affinity there >> "religious". Theology or faith per se, however, had very little to do with >> it. Belonging, thriving, making music and friends there, was a case of >> being both 5,000 miles from home, and right at home. Social capital emerged >> from thin air, every Saturday morning. >> >> On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> Mike, it is a suggestion that the phenomena manifested by Make-a-Wish in >>> NE Arkansas may not be portable, and that the kind of social change >>> achieved requires other means in other places. >>> After kind of touring the world, Horton went back, more or less, to his >>> home territory to set up the base to use adult education as an instrument >>> for social transformation. The merits of beginning from your own roots is >>> one of the conclusions I drew from my years of ultraleft activity. In the >>> 1970s, all over the world, people of my generation who had been >> radicalised >>> in the mass movements of the 1960s abandoned the professions they would >>> otherwise have joined after completing university and went to work in >>> factories based on convictions that this was where social transformation >>> could be achieved. A big mistake. Just like in many countries our >> opposite >>> numbers left the cities and went into the countryside. Big mistake. >>> This was not a mistake made by the woman who is the inspiration behind >>> this obsession with Make-a-Wish in NE Arkansas. She was a child who got >> her >>> real wish fulfilled and got better after being the subject of a >> Make-a-Wish >>> project, and what she decided to do with her life was lots and lots of >>> Make-a-Wish projects in her home town and surrounds. Good decision. >>> Now, there is a strong sense of "Only in America" in this story. I am not >>> much of a theologian, having been raised by Communists myself and never >>> having been to Damascus. But I think it could only be in a country so >>> utterly steeped in Christianity as rural U S of A that Make-a-Wish could >> so >>> grip entire communities. >>> In social democratic countries like Australia, Make-a-Wish has a life, >> but >>> it is not a big thing and nor is any variety of philanthropy. When people >>> want to do something to help there is a powerful reflex which says that >> the >>> proper way to help is to get government or at the very least some kind of >>> statutory authority to take on the problem in a permanent, universal >>> commitment. Which does produce weird phenomena from time to time. >> Whenever >>> there is a tsunami or a famine, Australians give billions on a personal >>> basis and our governments give very little. >>> Now this brings me to a puzzle which I have wrestled with most of my life >>> without resolution. Almost everyone I see doing good, selfless community >>> service, even including self-help and community development work, is >>> motivated by religion. There are those of us who serve the community >>> motivated by secular ideals, but we are really a small minority. This is >> a >>> real conundrum for those of us motivated by secular ideals because we >> rely >>> on the idea that secular ideals are powerful enough to motivate >> meaningful >>> life-projects which are not self-serving. >>> One of the attractions of Make-a-Wish is that it is a >> project-of-projects. >>> In fact, most of the participants probably are not even conscious of an >>> overall project, just "Make-a-Wish". >>> None of the above goes to the key relation at the centre of each >>> Make-a-Wish project, the sick child. I am sure a poet-psychologist could >>> wax lyrical on that theme, but that's not for me. The ability of the sick >>> child to cut through to the heart of every adult is surely universal. But >>> Jane Jacobs rated the obligation upon any adult to come to the aid of any >>> child on the pavement a key characteristic of a healthy city and I agree. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> On 22/10/2015 1:33 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> larry, Andy >>>> >>>> Does Horton's advice provide an explanation for the various phenomena on >>>> display in that video segment? >>>> >>>> I am a little lost here. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Lplarry > >>> lpscholar2@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Andy, >>>> The wisdom of Myles Norton. >>>> You must go back. Does this mean retreat or withdraw >>>> to a simple place? The question of the place being >>>> simple also seems relevant. >>>> Also the need for a goal. Is the type of goal required >>>> an *ethical* goal that is shared? >>>> THEN the movement and application will take its *own* >>>> form and structure once we have a place. >>>> It seems Myles Horton is trusting goals without >>>> blueprints that give pre/established answers. >>>> TRUSTING the place and the goals to open >>>> opportunities of possibility. A simple place >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: "Andy Blunden" >>> > >>>> Sent: ?2015-?10-?20 2:18 AM >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>> > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the >>>> social springs of giving >>>> >>>> I watched the story. >>>> I already knew about Make-a-Wish so it was no >>>> surprise, but >>>> Mike's point was of course the way MaW became a >>>> vehicle for >>>> a fantastic wave of building social fabric. >>>> XMCAers are all going to be interested in any idea >>>> which can >>>> lead to building this kind of *trust* in a community. >>>> Trust >>>> is basically what "social capital" is, but the point >>>> is only >>>> how does one go about *building* that trust? Robert Putnam >>>> says almost any doing-something-together will have this >>>> effect, and took choir groups as his typical example. >>>> Personally, I think MaW would do better than choir groups, >>>> but that's not the point. Putnam's own data in his >>>> original >>>> study in Italy actually showed that the best predictor of >>>> social capital was having a PCI local government, >>>> which was >>>> inconvenient for Putnam's theory, so he just excluded this >>>> from his results. >>>> The story this week in Australia has been about Tamworth, >>>> famous for an annual Country Music festival, but >>>> otherwise a >>>> typical remote outback town. It is now building a >>>> Pharmaceutical plant. How did this huge change happen? A >>>> young boy had bowel cancer and his mother, a good >>>> member of >>>> the Country Women's Association, discovered that cannabis >>>> was the only medication which relieved the pain and nausea >>>> the boy was suffering. She took up the cause. While >>>> illegally acquiring cannabis she started lobbying >>>> government >>>> to legalise medical cannabis and she won, though the whole >>>> business will take a year or so to implement. And Tamworth >>>> will be all set to market it. She has gathered a huge >>>> social >>>> movement and local support radiating out from Tamworth. >>>> My point. Make-a-Wish worked for North East Arkansas, >>>> partly >>>> because of one child who lived to champion it. Cannabis >>>> legalisation and production worked for Tamworth. >>>> As Myles Horton said: >>>> >>>> What you must do is go back, get a simple place, >>>> move in and you are there. The situation is there. >>>> You start with this and let it grow. You know your >>>> goal. It will build its own structure and take its >>>> own form. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> On 20/10/2015 4:00 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>>> What did you make of the CBS segment, Jay? Does it >>>> provide useful example >>>>> of principle of community's in Turner? >>>>> Mike >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, October 19, 2015, Jay Lemke >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> For an interesting approach to "community", I'd >>>> recommend Edith Turner's >>>>>> "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor >>>> Turner's concept. >>>>>> >>>>>> JAY. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jay Lemke >>>>>> LCHC/Department of Communication >>>>>> University of California - San Diego >>>>>> www.jaylemke.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden >>>> >>>> >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. >>>>>>> Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and >>>> developing an alternative >>>>>>> concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a >>>> suitable unit of >>>>>>> analysis was how I got started down the track I >>>> have been on ever since >>>>>>> then, about 2003. What is the difference between >>>> community as in all >>>>>> people >>>>>>> living in such and such town, and "real" >>>> community? Robert Putnam had >>>>>>> assembled evidence that almost any collective >>>> activity fosters what he >>>>>>> called "social capital." The problem was that he >>>> couldn't distinguish >>>>>>> between the mafia taking root in a community and a >>>> community taking >>>>>> control >>>>>>> of crime on its streets, etc. His classic >>>> "example" activity was the >>>>>>> formation of choir groups, proven promoters of >>>> collective "wealth". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I found a segment of the American weekly TV >>>> program, 60 minutes, more >>>>>> than >>>>>>>> usually interesting this evening, and one segment >>>> in particular >>>>>>>> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many >>>> different interests of people >>>>>> on >>>>>>>> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the >>>> "Make a Wish Foundation." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of the very many issues that the program >>>> discusses, one which I found >>>>>>>> particularly interesting was the ability of the >>>> organized practice of >>>>>>>> communities >>>>>>>> raising money to give seriously ill children "a >>>> last wish" is one that >>>>>> has >>>>>>>> particular relevance to questions about the >>>> mechanisms of social >>>>>>>> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, >>>> a relatively poor and >>>>>> out >>>>>>>> of the part of the US, people raise amazing >>>> amounts of money to provide >>>>>>>> special experience for kids who are dying of some >>>> disease that has not >>>>>>>> known current cure. What particularly caught my >>>> attention especially is >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> powerful effect that participation in the money >>>> raising and the >>>>>> ingenious >>>>>>>> social organization of the activities, has on >>>> community members across >>>>>>>> several generations, from peers to grandparents. >>>> In one sense, it seems >>>>>>>> that everything is so focuses on the individual >>>> kid that it is "just a >>>>>>>> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." >>>> If effects on the kids >>>>>> is >>>>>>>> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on >>>> the community pretty >>>>>>>> generally, and the emergence of strong personal >>>> bonds in particular that >>>>>>>> caught me most. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andy might find this interesting as an example of >>>> a project. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ >>>> click on make a >>>>>>>> wish >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> From lemke.jay@gmail.com Thu Oct 22 14:03:21 2015 From: lemke.jay@gmail.com (Jay Lemke) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:03:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: <79F39502-84F4-4F57-BF57-96E92AFEE29B@gmail.com> References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> <562606BD.7030200@mira.net> <56273521.21bf440a.128a9.5fe5@mx.google.com> <5628334E.1070508@mira.net> <79F39502-84F4-4F57-BF57-96E92AFEE29B@gmail.com> Message-ID: A classic basis of community solidarity is, of course, persecution (or fear of it, justified or not) by outsiders. Or even just the perception of even a non-aggressive threat to the community's traditions and values by the arrival of (too many, as they see it) outsiders. Governments like to play on this fear. But it would be interesting to know how the immigration 'crisis' in the US (where it's not) and in the EU (where it might be in some places) has affected solidarity among traditional locals, particularly those NOT on the right wing fringe. Though clearly it must also be great for recruiting among nativists everywhere. Given that mass migrations of historic proportions are probably in humanity's near-term future (due to climate disruptions and their indirect effects, such as famines, floods, disease, civil unrest, etc.), this general phenomenon may come to play an ever larger role in community psychology. Apart from the reactions of the recipient communities (significant of course), there is also the interesting question of new solidarities produced among the migrating people on the move, and then in their new locations. Such solidarities, in unsettled conditions, may not necessarily be a good thing. JAY. Jay Lemke LCHC/Department of Communication University of California - San Diego www.jaylemke.com On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 1:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > I agree with Jay from a Jew-ish perspective. My wife?s mom is a ?cultural" > Jew, regularly attends services and maintains close ties with friends and > an extended Jewish family. To the extent that she believes in a god, not > much, she does not believe in the efficacy of prayer. To that watered-down > religious motive for affiliation with ?her kind? I would add a well-earned > persecution complex. Who can you trust? There are a lot of Christians, > especially on the right of the political perspective, who believe they are > persecuted for their beliefs. Not so well earned from my perspective, but > they aren?t listening to me. > > On a lighter note, but still on the theme of religion, Senator Bernie > Sanders (a Jew), who is running for President as a Democrat, has labeled > himself a socialist. He also has said that we celebrate the birth of the > biggest Jewish socialist of all time every year at Christmas. :) > Henry > > > > On Oct 22, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Jay Lemke wrote: > > > > A follow-up thought about the question of religious motivation for > > altruistic participation in that Arkansas community. In small towns like > > that in that part of the US, it's fairly normal to have regular > > participation in church activities. Churches frequently organize > > philanthropic and community support activities such as visits to sick > > church members, help for families in need, and so on. > > > > I believe this develops a habitus or normal disposition for participating > > in such community activities. Although it would be common for people to > > justify their participation using religious language, I don't think we > need > > to assume a direct religious motivation for participation such as with > Make > > a Wish. It seems enough that people have developed the habit of > > participating in similar activities through lifelong churchgoing. Even > the > > habit of putting a dollar in the collection plate on Sunday provides a > > template for putting a dollar in the Make a Wish collection box. > > > > I offered this observation because although it is important to assess the > > role of religious belief in altruistic behavior, I think we need to > > distinguish action based on such belief from habits of community > solidarity > > that depend more on participation in the activities of a church > community, > > which may not be specifically based in religious belief as such. > > > > JAY. > > > > > > Jay Lemke > > LCHC/Department of Communication > > University of California - San Diego > > www.jaylemke.com > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 6:18 AM, Daniel Hyman < > daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> Highly illuminating, Andy, thank you! > >> > >> A semantic quibble and a brief personal story: > >> > >> - "Go back" could mean, as well as "retreat" or "withdraw", "return". A > >> subtle but key shade of meaning. > >> > >> - I have just returned to New York from a remarkable year in Kiev. > Easily > >> its most meaningful and rewarding aspect, was being invited to weekly > >> services as cantor of the main Progressive synagogue in Ukraine, > >> Atikva Tsentr. (No ordination, no problem.) Judaism is called a > religion, > >> but to my mind (and others') ill fits that category. Atikva is a vibrant > >> cultural and social community. It stands, phoenix-like, within walking > >> distance of Babiy Yar. I suppose one could call my affinity there > >> "religious". Theology or faith per se, however, had very little to do > with > >> it. Belonging, thriving, making music and friends there, was a case of > >> being both 5,000 miles from home, and right at home. Social capital > emerged > >> from thin air, every Saturday morning. > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > >> > >>> Mike, it is a suggestion that the phenomena manifested by Make-a-Wish > in > >>> NE Arkansas may not be portable, and that the kind of social change > >>> achieved requires other means in other places. > >>> After kind of touring the world, Horton went back, more or less, to his > >>> home territory to set up the base to use adult education as an > instrument > >>> for social transformation. The merits of beginning from your own roots > is > >>> one of the conclusions I drew from my years of ultraleft activity. In > the > >>> 1970s, all over the world, people of my generation who had been > >> radicalised > >>> in the mass movements of the 1960s abandoned the professions they would > >>> otherwise have joined after completing university and went to work in > >>> factories based on convictions that this was where social > transformation > >>> could be achieved. A big mistake. Just like in many countries our > >> opposite > >>> numbers left the cities and went into the countryside. Big mistake. > >>> This was not a mistake made by the woman who is the inspiration behind > >>> this obsession with Make-a-Wish in NE Arkansas. She was a child who got > >> her > >>> real wish fulfilled and got better after being the subject of a > >> Make-a-Wish > >>> project, and what she decided to do with her life was lots and lots of > >>> Make-a-Wish projects in her home town and surrounds. Good decision. > >>> Now, there is a strong sense of "Only in America" in this story. I am > not > >>> much of a theologian, having been raised by Communists myself and never > >>> having been to Damascus. But I think it could only be in a country so > >>> utterly steeped in Christianity as rural U S of A that Make-a-Wish > could > >> so > >>> grip entire communities. > >>> In social democratic countries like Australia, Make-a-Wish has a life, > >> but > >>> it is not a big thing and nor is any variety of philanthropy. When > people > >>> want to do something to help there is a powerful reflex which says that > >> the > >>> proper way to help is to get government or at the very least some kind > of > >>> statutory authority to take on the problem in a permanent, universal > >>> commitment. Which does produce weird phenomena from time to time. > >> Whenever > >>> there is a tsunami or a famine, Australians give billions on a personal > >>> basis and our governments give very little. > >>> Now this brings me to a puzzle which I have wrestled with most of my > life > >>> without resolution. Almost everyone I see doing good, selfless > community > >>> service, even including self-help and community development work, is > >>> motivated by religion. There are those of us who serve the community > >>> motivated by secular ideals, but we are really a small minority. This > is > >> a > >>> real conundrum for those of us motivated by secular ideals because we > >> rely > >>> on the idea that secular ideals are powerful enough to motivate > >> meaningful > >>> life-projects which are not self-serving. > >>> One of the attractions of Make-a-Wish is that it is a > >> project-of-projects. > >>> In fact, most of the participants probably are not even conscious of an > >>> overall project, just "Make-a-Wish". > >>> None of the above goes to the key relation at the centre of each > >>> Make-a-Wish project, the sick child. I am sure a poet-psychologist > could > >>> wax lyrical on that theme, but that's not for me. The ability of the > sick > >>> child to cut through to the heart of every adult is surely universal. > But > >>> Jane Jacobs rated the obligation upon any adult to come to the aid of > any > >>> child on the pavement a key characteristic of a healthy city and I > agree. > >>> > >>> Andy > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>> On 22/10/2015 1:33 AM, mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>>> larry, Andy > >>>> > >>>> Does Horton's advice provide an explanation for the various phenomena > on > >>>> display in that video segment? > >>>> > >>>> I am a little lost here. > >>>> mike > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Lplarry >> >>>> lpscholar2@gmail.com>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Andy, > >>>> The wisdom of Myles Norton. > >>>> You must go back. Does this mean retreat or withdraw > >>>> to a simple place? The question of the place being > >>>> simple also seems relevant. > >>>> Also the need for a goal. Is the type of goal required > >>>> an *ethical* goal that is shared? > >>>> THEN the movement and application will take its *own* > >>>> form and structure once we have a place. > >>>> It seems Myles Horton is trusting goals without > >>>> blueprints that give pre/established answers. > >>>> TRUSTING the place and the goals to open > >>>> opportunities of possibility. A simple place > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: "Andy Blunden" >>>> > > >>>> Sent: ?2015-?10-?20 2:18 AM > >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >>>> > > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the > >>>> social springs of giving > >>>> > >>>> I watched the story. > >>>> I already knew about Make-a-Wish so it was no > >>>> surprise, but > >>>> Mike's point was of course the way MaW became a > >>>> vehicle for > >>>> a fantastic wave of building social fabric. > >>>> XMCAers are all going to be interested in any idea > >>>> which can > >>>> lead to building this kind of *trust* in a community. > >>>> Trust > >>>> is basically what "social capital" is, but the point > >>>> is only > >>>> how does one go about *building* that trust? Robert Putnam > >>>> says almost any doing-something-together will have this > >>>> effect, and took choir groups as his typical example. > >>>> Personally, I think MaW would do better than choir groups, > >>>> but that's not the point. Putnam's own data in his > >>>> original > >>>> study in Italy actually showed that the best predictor of > >>>> social capital was having a PCI local government, > >>>> which was > >>>> inconvenient for Putnam's theory, so he just excluded this > >>>> from his results. > >>>> The story this week in Australia has been about Tamworth, > >>>> famous for an annual Country Music festival, but > >>>> otherwise a > >>>> typical remote outback town. It is now building a > >>>> Pharmaceutical plant. How did this huge change happen? A > >>>> young boy had bowel cancer and his mother, a good > >>>> member of > >>>> the Country Women's Association, discovered that cannabis > >>>> was the only medication which relieved the pain and nausea > >>>> the boy was suffering. She took up the cause. While > >>>> illegally acquiring cannabis she started lobbying > >>>> government > >>>> to legalise medical cannabis and she won, though the whole > >>>> business will take a year or so to implement. And Tamworth > >>>> will be all set to market it. She has gathered a huge > >>>> social > >>>> movement and local support radiating out from Tamworth. > >>>> My point. Make-a-Wish worked for North East Arkansas, > >>>> partly > >>>> because of one child who lived to champion it. Cannabis > >>>> legalisation and production worked for Tamworth. > >>>> As Myles Horton said: > >>>> > >>>> What you must do is go back, get a simple place, > >>>> move in and you are there. The situation is there. > >>>> You start with this and let it grow. You know your > >>>> goal. It will build its own structure and take its > >>>> own form. > >>>> > >>>> Andy > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>>> > >>>> On 20/10/2015 4:00 AM, mike cole wrote: > >>>>> What did you make of the CBS segment, Jay? Does it > >>>> provide useful example > >>>>> of principle of community's in Turner? > >>>>> Mike > >>>>> Mike > >>>>> > >>>>> On Monday, October 19, 2015, Jay Lemke > >>>> > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> For an interesting approach to "community", I'd > >>>> recommend Edith Turner's > >>>>>> "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor > >>>> Turner's concept. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> JAY. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Jay Lemke > >>>>>> LCHC/Department of Communication > >>>>>> University of California - San Diego > >>>>>> www.jaylemke.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > >>>>>>> Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and > >>>> developing an alternative > >>>>>>> concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a > >>>> suitable unit of > >>>>>>> analysis was how I got started down the track I > >>>> have been on ever since > >>>>>>> then, about 2003. What is the difference between > >>>> community as in all > >>>>>> people > >>>>>>> living in such and such town, and "real" > >>>> community? Robert Putnam had > >>>>>>> assembled evidence that almost any collective > >>>> activity fosters what he > >>>>>>> called "social capital." The problem was that he > >>>> couldn't distinguish > >>>>>>> between the mafia taking root in a community and a > >>>> community taking > >>>>>> control > >>>>>>> of crime on its streets, etc. His classic > >>>> "example" activity was the > >>>>>>> formation of choir groups, proven promoters of > >>>> collective "wealth". > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Andy > >>>>>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I found a segment of the American weekly TV > >>>> program, 60 minutes, more > >>>>>> than > >>>>>>>> usually interesting this evening, and one segment > >>>> in particular > >>>>>>>> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many > >>>> different interests of people > >>>>>> on > >>>>>>>> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the > >>>> "Make a Wish Foundation." > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Of the very many issues that the program > >>>> discusses, one which I found > >>>>>>>> particularly interesting was the ability of the > >>>> organized practice of > >>>>>>>> communities > >>>>>>>> raising money to give seriously ill children "a > >>>> last wish" is one that > >>>>>> has > >>>>>>>> particular relevance to questions about the > >>>> mechanisms of social > >>>>>>>> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, > >>>> a relatively poor and > >>>>>> out > >>>>>>>> of the part of the US, people raise amazing > >>>> amounts of money to provide > >>>>>>>> special experience for kids who are dying of some > >>>> disease that has not > >>>>>>>> known current cure. What particularly caught my > >>>> attention especially is > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> powerful effect that participation in the money > >>>> raising and the > >>>>>> ingenious > >>>>>>>> social organization of the activities, has on > >>>> community members across > >>>>>>>> several generations, from peers to grandparents. > >>>> In one sense, it seems > >>>>>>>> that everything is so focuses on the individual > >>>> kid that it is "just a > >>>>>>>> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." > >>>> If effects on the kids > >>>>>> is > >>>>>>>> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on > >>>> the community pretty > >>>>>>>> generally, and the emergence of strong personal > >>>> bonds in particular that > >>>>>>>> caught me most. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Andy might find this interesting as an example of > >>>> a project. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> mike > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ > >>>> click on make a > >>>>>>>> wish > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> > >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > From ablunden@mira.net Thu Oct 22 16:58:50 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:58:50 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> <562606BD.7030200@mira.net> <56273521.21bf440a.128a9.5fe5@mx.google.com> <5628334E.1070508@mira.net> Message-ID: <5629783A.5050007@mira.net> Yes of course, Jay. I don't know a term (rather than a whole sentence) to distinguish motivations which develop out of participation in a congregation along with entire communities from "I do this so I get into Heaven" (or something). But it is exactly as you say. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 23/10/2015 3:26 AM, Jay Lemke wrote: > A follow-up thought about the question of religious motivation for > altruistic participation in that Arkansas community. In small towns like > that in that part of the US, it's fairly normal to have regular > participation in church activities. Churches frequently organize > philanthropic and community support activities such as visits to sick > church members, help for families in need, and so on. > > I believe this develops a habitus or normal disposition for participating > in such community activities. Although it would be common for people to > justify their participation using religious language, I don't think we need > to assume a direct religious motivation for participation such as with Make > a Wish. It seems enough that people have developed the habit of > participating in similar activities through lifelong churchgoing. Even the > habit of putting a dollar in the collection plate on Sunday provides a > template for putting a dollar in the Make a Wish collection box. > > I offered this observation because although it is important to assess the > role of religious belief in altruistic behavior, I think we need to > distinguish action based on such belief from habits of community solidarity > that depend more on participation in the activities of a church community, > which may not be specifically based in religious belief as such. > > JAY. > > > Jay Lemke > LCHC/Department of Communication > University of California - San Diego > www.jaylemke.com > > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 6:18 AM, Daniel Hyman > wrote: > >> Highly illuminating, Andy, thank you! >> >> A semantic quibble and a brief personal story: >> >> - "Go back" could mean, as well as "retreat" or "withdraw", "return". A >> subtle but key shade of meaning. >> >> - I have just returned to New York from a remarkable year in Kiev. Easily >> its most meaningful and rewarding aspect, was being invited to weekly >> services as cantor of the main Progressive synagogue in Ukraine, >> Atikva Tsentr. (No ordination, no problem.) Judaism is called a religion, >> but to my mind (and others') ill fits that category. Atikva is a vibrant >> cultural and social community. It stands, phoenix-like, within walking >> distance of Babiy Yar. I suppose one could call my affinity there >> "religious". Theology or faith per se, however, had very little to do with >> it. Belonging, thriving, making music and friends there, was a case of >> being both 5,000 miles from home, and right at home. Social capital emerged >> from thin air, every Saturday morning. >> >> On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> Mike, it is a suggestion that the phenomena manifested by Make-a-Wish in >>> NE Arkansas may not be portable, and that the kind of social change >>> achieved requires other means in other places. >>> After kind of touring the world, Horton went back, more or less, to his >>> home territory to set up the base to use adult education as an instrument >>> for social transformation. The merits of beginning from your own roots is >>> one of the conclusions I drew from my years of ultraleft activity. In the >>> 1970s, all over the world, people of my generation who had been >> radicalised >>> in the mass movements of the 1960s abandoned the professions they would >>> otherwise have joined after completing university and went to work in >>> factories based on convictions that this was where social transformation >>> could be achieved. A big mistake. Just like in many countries our >> opposite >>> numbers left the cities and went into the countryside. Big mistake. >>> This was not a mistake made by the woman who is the inspiration behind >>> this obsession with Make-a-Wish in NE Arkansas. She was a child who got >> her >>> real wish fulfilled and got better after being the subject of a >> Make-a-Wish >>> project, and what she decided to do with her life was lots and lots of >>> Make-a-Wish projects in her home town and surrounds. Good decision. >>> Now, there is a strong sense of "Only in America" in this story. I am not >>> much of a theologian, having been raised by Communists myself and never >>> having been to Damascus. But I think it could only be in a country so >>> utterly steeped in Christianity as rural U S of A that Make-a-Wish could >> so >>> grip entire communities. >>> In social democratic countries like Australia, Make-a-Wish has a life, >> but >>> it is not a big thing and nor is any variety of philanthropy. When people >>> want to do something to help there is a powerful reflex which says that >> the >>> proper way to help is to get government or at the very least some kind of >>> statutory authority to take on the problem in a permanent, universal >>> commitment. Which does produce weird phenomena from time to time. >> Whenever >>> there is a tsunami or a famine, Australians give billions on a personal >>> basis and our governments give very little. >>> Now this brings me to a puzzle which I have wrestled with most of my life >>> without resolution. Almost everyone I see doing good, selfless community >>> service, even including self-help and community development work, is >>> motivated by religion. There are those of us who serve the community >>> motivated by secular ideals, but we are really a small minority. This is >> a >>> real conundrum for those of us motivated by secular ideals because we >> rely >>> on the idea that secular ideals are powerful enough to motivate >> meaningful >>> life-projects which are not self-serving. >>> One of the attractions of Make-a-Wish is that it is a >> project-of-projects. >>> In fact, most of the participants probably are not even conscious of an >>> overall project, just "Make-a-Wish". >>> None of the above goes to the key relation at the centre of each >>> Make-a-Wish project, the sick child. I am sure a poet-psychologist could >>> wax lyrical on that theme, but that's not for me. The ability of the sick >>> child to cut through to the heart of every adult is surely universal. But >>> Jane Jacobs rated the obligation upon any adult to come to the aid of any >>> child on the pavement a key characteristic of a healthy city and I agree. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> On 22/10/2015 1:33 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> larry, Andy >>>> >>>> Does Horton's advice provide an explanation for the various phenomena on >>>> display in that video segment? >>>> >>>> I am a little lost here. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Lplarry > >>> lpscholar2@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Andy, >>>> The wisdom of Myles Norton. >>>> You must go back. Does this mean retreat or withdraw >>>> to a simple place? The question of the place being >>>> simple also seems relevant. >>>> Also the need for a goal. Is the type of goal required >>>> an *ethical* goal that is shared? >>>> THEN the movement and application will take its *own* >>>> form and structure once we have a place. >>>> It seems Myles Horton is trusting goals without >>>> blueprints that give pre/established answers. >>>> TRUSTING the place and the goals to open >>>> opportunities of possibility. A simple place >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: "Andy Blunden" >>> > >>>> Sent: ?2015-?10-?20 2:18 AM >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>> > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the >>>> social springs of giving >>>> >>>> I watched the story. >>>> I already knew about Make-a-Wish so it was no >>>> surprise, but >>>> Mike's point was of course the way MaW became a >>>> vehicle for >>>> a fantastic wave of building social fabric. >>>> XMCAers are all going to be interested in any idea >>>> which can >>>> lead to building this kind of *trust* in a community. >>>> Trust >>>> is basically what "social capital" is, but the point >>>> is only >>>> how does one go about *building* that trust? Robert Putnam >>>> says almost any doing-something-together will have this >>>> effect, and took choir groups as his typical example. >>>> Personally, I think MaW would do better than choir groups, >>>> but that's not the point. Putnam's own data in his >>>> original >>>> study in Italy actually showed that the best predictor of >>>> social capital was having a PCI local government, >>>> which was >>>> inconvenient for Putnam's theory, so he just excluded this >>>> from his results. >>>> The story this week in Australia has been about Tamworth, >>>> famous for an annual Country Music festival, but >>>> otherwise a >>>> typical remote outback town. It is now building a >>>> Pharmaceutical plant. How did this huge change happen? A >>>> young boy had bowel cancer and his mother, a good >>>> member of >>>> the Country Women's Association, discovered that cannabis >>>> was the only medication which relieved the pain and nausea >>>> the boy was suffering. She took up the cause. While >>>> illegally acquiring cannabis she started lobbying >>>> government >>>> to legalise medical cannabis and she won, though the whole >>>> business will take a year or so to implement. And Tamworth >>>> will be all set to market it. She has gathered a huge >>>> social >>>> movement and local support radiating out from Tamworth. >>>> My point. Make-a-Wish worked for North East Arkansas, >>>> partly >>>> because of one child who lived to champion it. Cannabis >>>> legalisation and production worked for Tamworth. >>>> As Myles Horton said: >>>> >>>> What you must do is go back, get a simple place, >>>> move in and you are there. The situation is there. >>>> You start with this and let it grow. You know your >>>> goal. It will build its own structure and take its >>>> own form. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> On 20/10/2015 4:00 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>> > What did you make of the CBS segment, Jay? Does it >>>> provide useful example >>>> > of principle of community's in Turner? >>>> > Mike >>>> > Mike >>>> > >>>> > On Monday, October 19, 2015, Jay Lemke >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> For an interesting approach to "community", I'd >>>> recommend Edith Turner's >>>> >> "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor >>>> Turner's concept. >>>> >> >>>> >> JAY. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Jay Lemke >>>> >> LCHC/Department of Communication >>>> >> University of California - San Diego >>>> >> www.jaylemke.com >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden >>>> >>>> >>>> >> > wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>> Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. >>>> >>> Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and >>>> developing an alternative >>>> >>> concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a >>>> suitable unit of >>>> >>> analysis was how I got started down the track I >>>> have been on ever since >>>> >>> then, about 2003. What is the difference between >>>> community as in all >>>> >> people >>>> >>> living in such and such town, and "real" >>>> community? Robert Putnam had >>>> >>> assembled evidence that almost any collective >>>> activity fosters what he >>>> >>> called "social capital." The problem was that he >>>> couldn't distinguish >>>> >>> between the mafia taking root in a community and a >>>> community taking >>>> >> control >>>> >>> of crime on its streets, etc. His classic >>>> "example" activity was the >>>> >>> formation of choir groups, proven promoters of >>>> collective "wealth". >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Andy >>>> >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> I found a segment of the American weekly TV >>>> program, 60 minutes, more >>>> >> than >>>> >>>> usually interesting this evening, and one segment >>>> in particular >>>> >>>> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many >>>> different interests of people >>>> >> on >>>> >>>> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the >>>> "Make a Wish Foundation." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Of the very many issues that the program >>>> discusses, one which I found >>>> >>>> particularly interesting was the ability of the >>>> organized practice of >>>> >>>> communities >>>> >>>> raising money to give seriously ill children "a >>>> last wish" is one that >>>> >> has >>>> >>>> particular relevance to questions about the >>>> mechanisms of social >>>> >>>> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, >>>> a relatively poor and >>>> >> out >>>> >>>> of the part of the US, people raise amazing >>>> amounts of money to provide >>>> >>>> special experience for kids who are dying of some >>>> disease that has not >>>> >>>> known current cure. What particularly caught my >>>> attention especially is >>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>> powerful effect that participation in the money >>>> raising and the >>>> >> ingenious >>>> >>>> social organization of the activities, has on >>>> community members across >>>> >>>> several generations, from peers to grandparents. >>>> In one sense, it seems >>>> >>>> that everything is so focuses on the individual >>>> kid that it is "just a >>>> >>>> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." >>>> If effects on the kids >>>> >> is >>>> >>>> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on >>>> the community pretty >>>> >>>> generally, and the emergence of strong personal >>>> bonds in particular that >>>> >>>> caught me most. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Andy might find this interesting as an example of >>>> a project. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ >>>> click on make a >>>> >>>> wish >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Oct 23 12:07:39 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:07:39 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: <5629783A.5050007@mira.net> References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> <562606BD.7030200@mira.net> <56273521.21bf440a.128a9.5fe5@mx.google.com> <5628334E.1070508@mira.net> <5629783A.5050007@mira.net> Message-ID: <562a8581.c283440a.6865c.ffffb4e7@mx.google.com> Jay, The notion of community solidarity and habits. The question I have is how central are our shared "values" for expressing community solidarity. Andy has mentioned rules (and laws, standards, etc) as shared actions and assumptions that become more codified and more determined over time. Is it reasonable to say that it is our values as they are expressed within community solidarity that over time become more determined as rules and other formulated orientations? My question comes from my reading Richard Bernstein who is exploring our shared *values* as guiding our actions within community participation. Larry -----Original Message----- From: "Andy Blunden" Sent: ?2015-?10-?22 5:00 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving Yes of course, Jay. I don't know a term (rather than a whole sentence) to distinguish motivations which develop out of participation in a congregation along with entire communities from "I do this so I get into Heaven" (or something). But it is exactly as you say. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 23/10/2015 3:26 AM, Jay Lemke wrote: > A follow-up thought about the question of religious motivation for > altruistic participation in that Arkansas community. In small towns like > that in that part of the US, it's fairly normal to have regular > participation in church activities. Churches frequently organize > philanthropic and community support activities such as visits to sick > church members, help for families in need, and so on. > > I believe this develops a habitus or normal disposition for participating > in such community activities. Although it would be common for people to > justify their participation using religious language, I don't think we need > to assume a direct religious motivation for participation such as with Make > a Wish. It seems enough that people have developed the habit of > participating in similar activities through lifelong churchgoing. Even the > habit of putting a dollar in the collection plate on Sunday provides a > template for putting a dollar in the Make a Wish collection box. > > I offered this observation because although it is important to assess the > role of religious belief in altruistic behavior, I think we need to > distinguish action based on such belief from habits of community solidarity > that depend more on participation in the activities of a church community, > which may not be specifically based in religious belief as such. > > JAY. > > > Jay Lemke > LCHC/Department of Communication > University of California - San Diego > www.jaylemke.com > > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 6:18 AM, Daniel Hyman > wrote: > >> Highly illuminating, Andy, thank you! >> >> A semantic quibble and a brief personal story: >> >> - "Go back" could mean, as well as "retreat" or "withdraw", "return". A >> subtle but key shade of meaning. >> >> - I have just returned to New York from a remarkable year in Kiev. Easily >> its most meaningful and rewarding aspect, was being invited to weekly >> services as cantor of the main Progressive synagogue in Ukraine, >> Atikva Tsentr. (No ordination, no problem.) Judaism is called a religion, >> but to my mind (and others') ill fits that category. Atikva is a vibrant >> cultural and social community. It stands, phoenix-like, within walking >> distance of Babiy Yar. I suppose one could call my affinity there >> "religious". Theology or faith per se, however, had very little to do with >> it. Belonging, thriving, making music and friends there, was a case of >> being both 5,000 miles from home, and right at home. Social capital emerged >> from thin air, every Saturday morning. >> >> On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> Mike, it is a suggestion that the phenomena manifested by Make-a-Wish in >>> NE Arkansas may not be portable, and that the kind of social change >>> achieved requires other means in other places. >>> After kind of touring the world, Horton went back, more or less, to his >>> home territory to set up the base to use adult education as an instrument >>> for social transformation. The merits of beginning from your own roots is >>> one of the conclusions I drew from my years of ultraleft activity. In the >>> 1970s, all over the world, people of my generation who had been >> radicalised >>> in the mass movements of the 1960s abandoned the professions they would >>> otherwise have joined after completing university and went to work in >>> factories based on convictions that this was where social transformation >>> could be achieved. A big mistake. Just like in many countries our >> opposite >>> numbers left the cities and went into the countryside. Big mistake. >>> This was not a mistake made by the woman who is the inspiration behind >>> this obsession with Make-a-Wish in NE Arkansas. She was a child who got >> her >>> real wish fulfilled and got better after being the subject of a >> Make-a-Wish >>> project, and what she decided to do with her life was lots and lots of >>> Make-a-Wish projects in her home town and surrounds. Good decision. >>> Now, there is a strong sense of "Only in America" in this story. I am not >>> much of a theologian, having been raised by Communists myself and never >>> having been to Damascus. But I think it could only be in a country so >>> utterly steeped in Christianity as rural U S of A that Make-a-Wish could >> so >>> grip entire communities. >>> In social democratic countries like Australia, Make-a-Wish has a life, >> but >>> it is not a big thing and nor is any variety of philanthropy. When people >>> want to do something to help there is a powerful reflex which says that >> the >>> proper way to help is to get government or at the very least some kind of >>> statutory authority to take on the problem in a permanent, universal >>> commitment. Which does produce weird phenomena from time to time. >> Whenever >>> there is a tsunami or a famine, Australians give billions on a personal >>> basis and our governments give very little. >>> Now this brings me to a puzzle which I have wrestled with most of my life >>> without resolution. Almost everyone I see doing good, selfless community >>> service, even including self-help and community development work, is >>> motivated by religion. There are those of us who serve the community >>> motivated by secular ideals, but we are really a small minority. This is >> a >>> real conundrum for those of us motivated by secular ideals because we >> rely >>> on the idea that secular ideals are powerful enough to motivate >> meaningful >>> life-projects which are not self-serving. >>> One of the attractions of Make-a-Wish is that it is a >> project-of-projects. >>> In fact, most of the participants probably are not even conscious of an >>> overall project, just "Make-a-Wish". >>> None of the above goes to the key relation at the centre of each >>> Make-a-Wish project, the sick child. I am sure a poet-psychologist could >>> wax lyrical on that theme, but that's not for me. The ability of the sick >>> child to cut through to the heart of every adult is surely universal. But >>> Jane Jacobs rated the obligation upon any adult to come to the aid of any >>> child on the pavement a key characteristic of a healthy city and I agree. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> On 22/10/2015 1:33 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> larry, Andy >>>> >>>> Does Horton's advice provide an explanation for the various phenomena on >>>> display in that video segment? >>>> >>>> I am a little lost here. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Lplarry > >>> lpscholar2@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Andy, >>>> The wisdom of Myles Norton. >>>> You must go back. Does this mean retreat or withdraw >>>> to a simple place? The question of the place being >>>> simple also seems relevant. >>>> Also the need for a goal. Is the type of goal required >>>> an *ethical* goal that is shared? >>>> THEN the movement and application will take its *own* >>>> form and structure once we have a place. >>>> It seems Myles Horton is trusting goals without >>>> blueprints that give pre/established answers. >>>> TRUSTING the place and the goals to open >>>> opportunities of possibility. A simple place >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: "Andy Blunden" >>> > >>>> Sent: ?2015-?10-?20 2:18 AM >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>> > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the >>>> social springs of giving >>>> >>>> I watched the story. >>>> I already knew about Make-a-Wish so it was no >>>> surprise, but >>>> Mike's point was of course the way MaW became a >>>> vehicle for >>>> a fantastic wave of building social fabric. >>>> XMCAers are all going to be interested in any idea >>>> which can >>>> lead to building this kind of *trust* in a community. >>>> Trust >>>> is basically what "social capital" is, but the point >>>> is only >>>> how does one go about *building* that trust? Robert Putnam >>>> says almost any doing-something-together will have this >>>> effect, and took choir groups as his typical example. >>>> Personally, I think MaW would do better than choir groups, >>>> but that's not the point. Putnam's own data in his >>>> original >>>> study in Italy actually showed that the best predictor of >>>> social capital was having a PCI local government, >>>> which was >>>> inconvenient for Putnam's theory, so he just excluded this >>>> from his results. >>>> The story this week in Australia has been about Tamworth, >>>> famous for an annual Country Music festival, but >>>> otherwise a >>>> typical remote outback town. It is now building a >>>> Pharmaceutical plant. How did this huge change happen? A >>>> young boy had bowel cancer and his mother, a good >>>> member of >>>> the Country Women's Association, discovered that cannabis >>>> was the only medication which relieved the pain and nausea >>>> the boy was suffering. She took up the cause. While >>>> illegally acquiring cannabis she started lobbying >>>> government >>>> to legalise medical cannabis and she won, though the whole >>>> business will take a year or so to implement. And Tamworth >>>> will be all set to market it. She has gathered a huge >>>> social >>>> movement and local support radiating out from Tamworth. >>>> My point. Make-a-Wish worked for North East Arkansas, >>>> partly >>>> because of one child who lived to champion it. Cannabis >>>> legalisation and production worked for Tamworth. >>>> As Myles Horton said: >>>> >>>> What you must do is go back, get a simple place, >>>> move in and you are there. The situation is there. >>>> You start with this and let it grow. You know your >>>> goal. It will build its own structure and take its >>>> own form. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> On 20/10/2015 4:00 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>> > What did you make of the CBS segment, Jay? Does it >>>> provide useful example >>>> > of principle of community's in Turner? >>>> > Mike >>>> > Mike >>>> > >>>> > On Monday, October 19, 2015, Jay Lemke >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> For an interesting approach to "community", I'd >>>> recommend Edith Turner's >>>> >> "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor >>>> Turner's concept. >>>> >> >>>> >> JAY. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Jay Lemke >>>> >> LCHC/Department of Communication >>>> >> University of California - San Diego >>>> >> www.jaylemke.com >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden >>>> >>>> >>>> >> > wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>> Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. >>>> >>> Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and >>>> developing an alternative >>>> >>> concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a >>>> suitable unit of >>>> >>> analysis was how I got started down the track I >>>> have been on ever since >>>> >>> then, about 2003. What is the difference between >>>> community as in all >>>> >> people >>>> >>> living in such and such town, and "real" >>>> community? Robert Putnam had >>>> >>> assembled evidence that almost any collective >>>> activity fosters what he >>>> >>> called "social capital." The problem was that he >>>> couldn't distinguish >>>> >>> between the mafia taking root in a community and a >>>> community taking >>>> >> control >>>> >>> of crime on its streets, etc. His classic >>>> "example" activity was the >>>> >>> formation of choir groups, proven promoters of >>>> collective "wealth". >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Andy >>>> >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> I found a segment of the American weekly TV >>>> program, 60 minutes, more >>>> >> than >>>> >>>> usually interesting this evening, and one segment >>>> in particular >>>> >>>> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many >>>> different interests of people >>>> >> on >>>> >>>> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the >>>> "Make a Wish Foundation." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Of the very many issues that the program >>>> discusses, one which I found >>>> >>>> particularly interesting was the ability of the >>>> organized practice of >>>> >>>> communities >>>> >>>> raising money to give seriously ill children "a >>>> last wish" is one that >>>> >> has >>>> >>>> particular relevance to questions about the >>>> mechanisms of social >>>> >>>> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, >>>> a relatively poor and >>>> >> out >>>> >>>> of the part of the US, people raise amazing >>>> amounts of money to provide >>>> >>>> special experience for kids who are dying of some >>>> disease that has not >>>> >>>> known current cure. What particularly caught my >>>> attention especially is >>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>> powerful effect that participation in the money >>>> raising and the >>>> >> ingenious >>>> >>>> social organization of the activities, has on >>>> community members across >>>> >>>> several generations, from peers to grandparents. >>>> In one sense, it seems >>>> >>>> that everything is so focuses on the individual >>>> kid that it is "just a >>>> >>>> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." >>>> If effects on the kids >>>> >> is >>>> >>>> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on >>>> the community pretty >>>> >>>> generally, and the emergence of strong personal >>>> bonds in particular that >>>> >>>> caught me most. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Andy might find this interesting as an example of >>>> a project. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ >>>> click on make a >>>> >>>> wish >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > From lemke.jay@gmail.com Fri Oct 23 13:32:48 2015 From: lemke.jay@gmail.com (Jay Lemke) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:32:48 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of giving In-Reply-To: <562a8581.c283440a.6865c.ffffb4e7@mx.google.com> References: <56246A62.9080907@mira.net> <562606BD.7030200@mira.net> <56273521.21bf440a.128a9.5fe5@mx.google.com> <5628334E.1070508@mira.net> <5629783A.5050007@mira.net> <562a8581.c283440a.6865c.ffffb4e7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Larry, In my view, our actions are guided more by implicit or unconscious habitus, that is embodied dispositions, then by explicit rules or principles. I believe this is particularly true in the case of ordinary moral choices as opposed to unusual or difficult ones. It seems to me that it is an intellectual isolation more characteristic of people like us to believe that our actions are mostly guided by reasoning with principles. I believe that most of the time people act in terms of the first choice that naturally comes to mind (or body) or in terms of simple folk sayings that accompany and justify more than guide or motivate ordinary actions. This is not to say that we don't attempt to reason with principles in more complex unusual or difficult situations. In general, the dispositions of this kind and the ordinary life sayings or narratives are shared in a community. Historically, they may have first arisen as more explicit principles, but I am not sure whether this is generally true. Dispositions tend to arise from prior dispositions. Sometimes they represent sedimentations of earlier explicit and perhaps new (at the time) principles. Intellectual analysis tends to over emphasize explicit reasoning about choices and actions. In my view such reasoning is far more the exception than the rule. Even in the case of widely circulating shared discourses or narratives in a community it may often be the case that these are themselves the products of felt dispositions rather than the sources of shared community values. What the actual sources of shared community values may be seems to me to largely remain a mystery, in so far as values indeed are shared ? as I believe they are not nearly so much shared as ideologies would have us believe especially since the rise of modern nation states. I believe that we do not so much share values as we accommodate our different values to one another in the process of practical living in a community. The very idea of "values" seems to me to reify and make overly explicit what are experientially more rooted in feelings and less conscious dispositions. JAY. Jay Lemke LCHC/Department of Communication University of California - San Diego www.jaylemke.com On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 12:07 PM, Lplarry wrote: > Jay, > The notion of community solidarity and habits. > The question I have is how central are our shared "values" for expressing > community solidarity. > Andy has mentioned rules (and laws, standards, etc) as shared actions and > assumptions that become more codified and more determined over time. > Is it reasonable to say that it is our values as they are expressed within > community solidarity that over time become more determined as rules and > other formulated orientations? > My question comes from my reading Richard Bernstein who is exploring our > shared *values* as guiding our actions within community participation. > Larry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Andy Blunden" > Sent: ?2015-?10-?22 5:00 PM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the social springs of > giving > > Yes of course, Jay. I don't know a term (rather than a whole > sentence) to distinguish motivations which develop out of > participation in a congregation along with entire > communities from "I do this so I get into Heaven" (or > something). But it is exactly as you say. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 23/10/2015 3:26 AM, Jay Lemke wrote: > > A follow-up thought about the question of religious motivation for > > altruistic participation in that Arkansas community. In small towns like > > that in that part of the US, it's fairly normal to have regular > > participation in church activities. Churches frequently organize > > philanthropic and community support activities such as visits to sick > > church members, help for families in need, and so on. > > > > I believe this develops a habitus or normal disposition for participating > > in such community activities. Although it would be common for people to > > justify their participation using religious language, I don't think we > need > > to assume a direct religious motivation for participation such as with > Make > > a Wish. It seems enough that people have developed the habit of > > participating in similar activities through lifelong churchgoing. Even > the > > habit of putting a dollar in the collection plate on Sunday provides a > > template for putting a dollar in the Make a Wish collection box. > > > > I offered this observation because although it is important to assess the > > role of religious belief in altruistic behavior, I think we need to > > distinguish action based on such belief from habits of community > solidarity > > that depend more on participation in the activities of a church > community, > > which may not be specifically based in religious belief as such. > > > > JAY. > > > > > > Jay Lemke > > LCHC/Department of Communication > > University of California - San Diego > > www.jaylemke.com > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 6:18 AM, Daniel Hyman < > daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> Highly illuminating, Andy, thank you! > >> > >> A semantic quibble and a brief personal story: > >> > >> - "Go back" could mean, as well as "retreat" or "withdraw", "return". A > >> subtle but key shade of meaning. > >> > >> - I have just returned to New York from a remarkable year in Kiev. > Easily > >> its most meaningful and rewarding aspect, was being invited to weekly > >> services as cantor of the main Progressive synagogue in Ukraine, > >> Atikva Tsentr. (No ordination, no problem.) Judaism is called a > religion, > >> but to my mind (and others') ill fits that category. Atikva is a vibrant > >> cultural and social community. It stands, phoenix-like, within walking > >> distance of Babiy Yar. I suppose one could call my affinity there > >> "religious". Theology or faith per se, however, had very little to do > with > >> it. Belonging, thriving, making music and friends there, was a case of > >> being both 5,000 miles from home, and right at home. Social capital > emerged > >> from thin air, every Saturday morning. > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > >> > >>> Mike, it is a suggestion that the phenomena manifested by Make-a-Wish > in > >>> NE Arkansas may not be portable, and that the kind of social change > >>> achieved requires other means in other places. > >>> After kind of touring the world, Horton went back, more or less, to his > >>> home territory to set up the base to use adult education as an > instrument > >>> for social transformation. The merits of beginning from your own roots > is > >>> one of the conclusions I drew from my years of ultraleft activity. In > the > >>> 1970s, all over the world, people of my generation who had been > >> radicalised > >>> in the mass movements of the 1960s abandoned the professions they would > >>> otherwise have joined after completing university and went to work in > >>> factories based on convictions that this was where social > transformation > >>> could be achieved. A big mistake. Just like in many countries our > >> opposite > >>> numbers left the cities and went into the countryside. Big mistake. > >>> This was not a mistake made by the woman who is the inspiration behind > >>> this obsession with Make-a-Wish in NE Arkansas. She was a child who got > >> her > >>> real wish fulfilled and got better after being the subject of a > >> Make-a-Wish > >>> project, and what she decided to do with her life was lots and lots of > >>> Make-a-Wish projects in her home town and surrounds. Good decision. > >>> Now, there is a strong sense of "Only in America" in this story. I am > not > >>> much of a theologian, having been raised by Communists myself and never > >>> having been to Damascus. But I think it could only be in a country so > >>> utterly steeped in Christianity as rural U S of A that Make-a-Wish > could > >> so > >>> grip entire communities. > >>> In social democratic countries like Australia, Make-a-Wish has a life, > >> but > >>> it is not a big thing and nor is any variety of philanthropy. When > people > >>> want to do something to help there is a powerful reflex which says that > >> the > >>> proper way to help is to get government or at the very least some kind > of > >>> statutory authority to take on the problem in a permanent, universal > >>> commitment. Which does produce weird phenomena from time to time. > >> Whenever > >>> there is a tsunami or a famine, Australians give billions on a personal > >>> basis and our governments give very little. > >>> Now this brings me to a puzzle which I have wrestled with most of my > life > >>> without resolution. Almost everyone I see doing good, selfless > community > >>> service, even including self-help and community development work, is > >>> motivated by religion. There are those of us who serve the community > >>> motivated by secular ideals, but we are really a small minority. This > is > >> a > >>> real conundrum for those of us motivated by secular ideals because we > >> rely > >>> on the idea that secular ideals are powerful enough to motivate > >> meaningful > >>> life-projects which are not self-serving. > >>> One of the attractions of Make-a-Wish is that it is a > >> project-of-projects. > >>> In fact, most of the participants probably are not even conscious of an > >>> overall project, just "Make-a-Wish". > >>> None of the above goes to the key relation at the centre of each > >>> Make-a-Wish project, the sick child. I am sure a poet-psychologist > could > >>> wax lyrical on that theme, but that's not for me. The ability of the > sick > >>> child to cut through to the heart of every adult is surely universal. > But > >>> Jane Jacobs rated the obligation upon any adult to come to the aid of > any > >>> child on the pavement a key characteristic of a healthy city and I > agree. > >>> > >>> Andy > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>> On 22/10/2015 1:33 AM, mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>>> larry, Andy > >>>> > >>>> Does Horton's advice provide an explanation for the various phenomena > on > >>>> display in that video segment? > >>>> > >>>> I am a little lost here. > >>>> mike > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Lplarry >> >>>> lpscholar2@gmail.com>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Andy, > >>>> The wisdom of Myles Norton. > >>>> You must go back. Does this mean retreat or withdraw > >>>> to a simple place? The question of the place being > >>>> simple also seems relevant. > >>>> Also the need for a goal. Is the type of goal required > >>>> an *ethical* goal that is shared? > >>>> THEN the movement and application will take its *own* > >>>> form and structure once we have a place. > >>>> It seems Myles Horton is trusting goals without > >>>> blueprints that give pre/established answers. > >>>> TRUSTING the place and the goals to open > >>>> opportunities of possibility. A simple place > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: "Andy Blunden" >>>> > > >>>> Sent: ?2015-?10-?20 2:18 AM > >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >>>> > > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting to think about: the > >>>> social springs of giving > >>>> > >>>> I watched the story. > >>>> I already knew about Make-a-Wish so it was no > >>>> surprise, but > >>>> Mike's point was of course the way MaW became a > >>>> vehicle for > >>>> a fantastic wave of building social fabric. > >>>> XMCAers are all going to be interested in any idea > >>>> which can > >>>> lead to building this kind of *trust* in a community. > >>>> Trust > >>>> is basically what "social capital" is, but the point > >>>> is only > >>>> how does one go about *building* that trust? Robert Putnam > >>>> says almost any doing-something-together will have this > >>>> effect, and took choir groups as his typical example. > >>>> Personally, I think MaW would do better than choir groups, > >>>> but that's not the point. Putnam's own data in his > >>>> original > >>>> study in Italy actually showed that the best predictor of > >>>> social capital was having a PCI local government, > >>>> which was > >>>> inconvenient for Putnam's theory, so he just excluded this > >>>> from his results. > >>>> The story this week in Australia has been about Tamworth, > >>>> famous for an annual Country Music festival, but > >>>> otherwise a > >>>> typical remote outback town. It is now building a > >>>> Pharmaceutical plant. How did this huge change happen? A > >>>> young boy had bowel cancer and his mother, a good > >>>> member of > >>>> the Country Women's Association, discovered that cannabis > >>>> was the only medication which relieved the pain and nausea > >>>> the boy was suffering. She took up the cause. While > >>>> illegally acquiring cannabis she started lobbying > >>>> government > >>>> to legalise medical cannabis and she won, though the whole > >>>> business will take a year or so to implement. And Tamworth > >>>> will be all set to market it. She has gathered a huge > >>>> social > >>>> movement and local support radiating out from Tamworth. > >>>> My point. Make-a-Wish worked for North East Arkansas, > >>>> partly > >>>> because of one child who lived to champion it. Cannabis > >>>> legalisation and production worked for Tamworth. > >>>> As Myles Horton said: > >>>> > >>>> What you must do is go back, get a simple place, > >>>> move in and you are there. The situation is there. > >>>> You start with this and let it grow. You know your > >>>> goal. It will build its own structure and take its > >>>> own form. > >>>> > >>>> Andy > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>>> > >>>> On 20/10/2015 4:00 AM, mike cole wrote: > >>>> > What did you make of the CBS segment, Jay? Does it > >>>> provide useful example > >>>> > of principle of community's in Turner? > >>>> > Mike > >>>> > Mike > >>>> > > >>>> > On Monday, October 19, 2015, Jay Lemke > >>>> > wrote: > >>>> > > >>>> >> For an interesting approach to "community", I'd > >>>> recommend Edith Turner's > >>>> >> "Communitas". Ethnographic deepening of late Victor > >>>> Turner's concept. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> JAY. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Jay Lemke > >>>> >> LCHC/Department of Communication > >>>> >> University of California - San Diego > >>>> >> www.jaylemke.com > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Andy Blunden > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >> > wrote: > >>>> >> > >>>> >>> Yes, indeed I am interested, Mike. > >>>> >>> Critiquing the concept of "social capital" and > >>>> developing an alternative > >>>> >>> concept of "social solidarity" and searching for a > >>>> suitable unit of > >>>> >>> analysis was how I got started down the track I > >>>> have been on ever since > >>>> >>> then, about 2003. What is the difference between > >>>> community as in all > >>>> >> people > >>>> >>> living in such and such town, and "real" > >>>> community? Robert Putnam had > >>>> >>> assembled evidence that almost any collective > >>>> activity fosters what he > >>>> >>> called "social capital." The problem was that he > >>>> couldn't distinguish > >>>> >>> between the mafia taking root in a community and a > >>>> community taking > >>>> >> control > >>>> >>> of crime on its streets, etc. His classic > >>>> "example" activity was the > >>>> >>> formation of choir groups, proven promoters of > >>>> collective "wealth". > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> Andy > >>>> >>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>> >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> On 19/10/2015 2:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>> I found a segment of the American weekly TV > >>>> program, 60 minutes, more > >>>> >> than > >>>> >>>> usually interesting this evening, and one segment > >>>> in particular > >>>> >>>> seemed to have a lot of relevance to many > >>>> different interests of people > >>>> >> on > >>>> >>>> xmca. The topic was the the activities of the > >>>> "Make a Wish Foundation." > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> Of the very many issues that the program > >>>> discusses, one which I found > >>>> >>>> particularly interesting was the ability of the > >>>> organized practice of > >>>> >>>> communities > >>>> >>>> raising money to give seriously ill children "a > >>>> last wish" is one that > >>>> >> has > >>>> >>>> particular relevance to questions about the > >>>> mechanisms of social > >>>> >>>> solidarity. In small towns in northern Arkansas, > >>>> a relatively poor and > >>>> >> out > >>>> >>>> of the part of the US, people raise amazing > >>>> amounts of money to provide > >>>> >>>> special experience for kids who are dying of some > >>>> disease that has not > >>>> >>>> known current cure. What particularly caught my > >>>> attention especially is > >>>> >>>> the > >>>> >>>> powerful effect that participation in the money > >>>> raising and the > >>>> >> ingenious > >>>> >>>> social organization of the activities, has on > >>>> community members across > >>>> >>>> several generations, from peers to grandparents. > >>>> In one sense, it seems > >>>> >>>> that everything is so focuses on the individual > >>>> kid that it is "just a > >>>> >>>> manifestation of late capitalist individualism." > >>>> If effects on the kids > >>>> >> is > >>>> >>>> interesting, but it is the reflected effect on > >>>> the community pretty > >>>> >>>> generally, and the emergence of strong personal > >>>> bonds in particular that > >>>> >>>> caught me most. > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> Andy might find this interesting as an example of > >>>> a project. > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> mike > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/ > >>>> click on make a > >>>> >>>> wish > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> > >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > > > > From C.Barker@mmu.ac.uk Fri Oct 23 15:22:26 2015 From: C.Barker@mmu.ac.uk (C Barker) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 22:22:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?windows-1252?q?Manchester_Social_Movements_Conference_=96_Call?= =?windows-1252?q?_for_Papers?= Message-ID: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D6682758800189223E5C@exmb2> SOCIAL MOVEMENTS CONFERENCE - CALL FOR PAPERS >From 1995 to 2015, Manchester Metropolitan University hosted a series of very successful annual international conferences on 'ALTERNATIVE FUTURES and POPULAR PROTEST'. We're very happy to announce that the Twenty First AF&PP Conference will be held between Monday 21st and Wednesday 23rd March 2016. The Conference rubric will remain as in previous years. The aim is to explore the dynamics of popular movements, along with the ideas which animate their activists and supporters and which contribute to shaping their fate. Reflecting the inherent cross-disciplinary nature of the issues, previous participants (from over 60 countries) have come from such specialisms as sociology, politics, cultural studies, social psychology, economics, history and geography. The Manchester conferences have been notable for discovering a fruitful and friendly meeting ground between activism and academia. PRELIMINARY CALL FOR PAPERS We invite offers of papers relevant to the conference themes. Papers should address such matters as: * contemporary and historical social movements and popular protests * social movement theory * utopias and experiments * ideologies of collective action * etc. To offer a paper, please contact either of the conference convenors with a brief abstract: EITHER Colin Barker, email: c.barker@mmu.ac.uk OR Mike Tyldesley, Politics Section, HPP, Manchester Metropolitan University Geoffrey Manton Building, Rosamond Street West Manchester M15 6LL, England Tel: M. Tyldesley 0161 247 3460 email: m.tyldesley@mmu.ac.uk Fax: 0161 247 6769 (+44 161 247 6769) (Wherever possible, please use email, especially as Colin Barker is a retired gent. Surface mail and faxes should only be addressed to Mike Tyldesley) CONFERENCE PAPERS One way we organise this particular conference is that we ask those giving papers to supply them in advance, for inclusion on a CD of the complete papers which will be available from the conference opening. * Preferred method: send the paper to Colin Barker as an email attachment in MS Word. Any separate illustrations etc. should be sent separately, in .jpg format. * if this is impossible, post a copy of the text to Mike Tyldesley on a CD disk in MS Word format * Final date for receipt of abstracts: Monday 29th February 2016 * Final date for receipt of actual papers: Monday 7th March 2016 These are final dates. The earlier we receive abstracts, and actual papers, the better. CONFERENCE ARRANGEMENTS AND COSTS The conference will run from lunch-time Monday 21st March 2016 until after lunch on Wednesday 23rd March 2016. The conference cost will be inclusive of three lunches, teas/coffees and copies of the papers on CD. The full cost is ?140.00, with a cost of ?80.00 for students and the unwaged. We will circulate a Booking Form shortly. To register, please go to https://www.kxregistration.mmu.ac.uk/AlternativeFutures2016 and complete and send the form. (If you have problems ?clicking? on this URL, cut and paste this address directly into your browser. Please contact Mike Tyldesley if you encounter any difficulties.) You will be given two options; ?pay by Credit/Debit Card? or ?Pay by Invoice?. If you use the ?Pay by Invoice? option, please contact Mike Tyldesley (m.tyldesley@mmu.ac.uk ) immediately after you complete the form to let him know that you have done so and discuss your payment method with him. Hotels, hostels and dining out We can supply information about relatively cheap local hotels and hostels. Let us know if you would like this information. We cannot do hotel or hostel bookings for you. Conference participants will be invited to dine together at two local (and not too expensive) restaurants on the two conference evenings. Payment for dinners should not be made in advance, but directly to the restaurants on the night. Please feel free to circulate this to anyone who might be interested. Colin Barker Mike Tyldesley "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Sat Oct 24 15:34:38 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 18:34:38 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A___Manchester_Social_Movements_Conference_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=93_Call_for_Papers?= Message-ID: Sent on a Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note? II
-------- Original message --------
From: C Barker
Date:10/23/2015 6:22 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: C Barker
Subject: [Xmca-l] Manchester Social Movements Conference ? Call for Papers
SOCIAL MOVEMENTS CONFERENCE - CALL FOR PAPERS >From 1995 to 2015, Manchester Metropolitan University hosted a series of very successful annual international conferences on 'ALTERNATIVE FUTURES and POPULAR PROTEST'. We're very happy to announce that the Twenty First AF&PP Conference will be held between Monday 21st and Wednesday 23rd March 2016. The Conference rubric will remain as in previous years. The aim is to explore the dynamics of popular movements, along with the ideas which animate their activists and supporters and which contribute to shaping their fate. Reflecting the inherent cross-disciplinary nature of the issues, previous participants (from over 60 countries) have come from such specialisms as sociology, politics, cultural studies, social psychology, economics, history and geography. The Manchester conferences have been notable for discovering a fruitful and friendly meeting ground between activism and academia. PRELIMINARY CALL FOR PAPERS We invite offers of papers relevant to the conference themes. Papers should address such matters as: * contemporary and historical social movements and popular protests * social movement theory * utopias and experiments * ideologies of collective action * etc. To offer a paper, please contact either of the conference convenors with a brief abstract: EITHER Colin Barker, email: c.barker@mmu.ac.uk OR Mike Tyldesley, Politics Section, HPP, Manchester Metropolitan University Geoffrey Manton Building, Rosamond Street West Manchester M15 6LL, England Tel: M. Tyldesley 0161 247 3460 email: m.tyldesley@mmu.ac.uk Fax: 0161 247 6769 (+44 161 247 6769) (Wherever possible, please use email, especially as Colin Barker is a retired gent. Surface mail and faxes should only be addressed to Mike Tyldesley) CONFERENCE PAPERS One way we organise this particular conference is that we ask those giving papers to supply them in advance, for inclusion on a CD of the complete papers which will be available from the conference opening. * Preferred method: send the paper to Colin Barker as an email attachment in MS Word. Any separate illustrations etc. should be sent separately, in .jpg format. * if this is impossible, post a copy of the text to Mike Tyldesley on a CD disk in MS Word format * Final date for receipt of abstracts: Monday 29th February 2016 * Final date for receipt of actual papers: Monday 7th March 2016 These are final dates. The earlier we receive abstracts, and actual papers, the better. CONFERENCE ARRANGEMENTS AND COSTS The conference will run from lunch-time Monday 21st March 2016 until after lunch on Wednesday 23rd March 2016. The conference cost will be inclusive of three lunches, teas/coffees and copies of the papers on CD. The full cost is ?140.00, with a cost of ?80.00 for students and the unwaged. We will circulate a Booking Form shortly. To register, please go to https://www.kxregistration.mmu.ac.uk/AlternativeFutures2016 and complete and send the form. (If you have problems ?clicking? on this URL, cut and paste this address directly into your browser. Please contact Mike Tyldesley if you encounter any difficulties.) You will be given two options; ?pay by Credit/Debit Card? or ?Pay by Invoice?. If you use the ?Pay by Invoice? option, please contact Mike Tyldesley (m.tyldesley@mmu.ac.uk ) immediately after you complete the form to let him know that you have done so and discuss your payment method with him. Hotels, hostels and dining out We can supply information about relatively cheap local hotels and hostels. Let us know if you would like this information. We cannot do hotel or hostel bookings for you. Conference participants will be invited to dine together at two local (and not too expensive) restaurants on the two conference evenings. Payment for dinners should not be made in advance, but directly to the restaurants on the night. Please feel free to circulate this to anyone who might be interested. Colin Barker Mike Tyldesley "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Oct 24 19:30:06 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 11:30:06 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Life off grid - communitas? Message-ID: Is this a new form of communitas: http://lifeoffgrid.ca/ (link is to a 3 minute trailer for a movie about folks living life off the grid) Some of the folks seem to suggest so. Others maybe not so much. -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From bella.kotik@gmail.com Sun Oct 25 02:24:18 2015 From: bella.kotik@gmail.com (Bella Kotik-Friedgut) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 11:24:18 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] invitation to Portugal Message-ID: http://www.estorilvigotskyconference.com/index.php/en/2013-10-30-08-03-29/invitation Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Oct 26 16:27:05 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 23:27:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Life off grid - communitas? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That looks like a compelling film, Greg. Is 'off the grid' used metaphorically, i.e. is it about living away from societal norms, or is it principally about generating their own power etc? I have always thought it rather telling that the skills that society at large tends to value the most (finance, entertainment) are invariably the most useless when it comes to living within a small community. Maybe, maybe, this is because community is not something easily achieved outside of settings of co-dependence that are not mediated by money, qualifications etc. Then again, one has to ask about the nature of a production documenting a more independent way of living whilst simultaneously reconnecting with societal values by lugging a wide-lens camera around with homesteaders at one end of the camera and a series of official film selection committees at the other end of apparatus. Is there some kind of hipster quality to that, about being radically happy in the city centre or radically happy out in remote places, provided the umbilical chord isn't cut? Or is it more simply communities celebrating their existence and survival -- "we're here and we do things differently". Either way, what seems to be interesting for me here is the change in meaning for basic skills and community values that seem to go hand in hand with 'disconnecting'. Best, Huw On 25 October 2015 at 02:30, Greg Thompson wrote: > Is this a new form of communitas: > http://lifeoffgrid.ca/ > (link is to a 3 minute trailer for a movie about folks living life off the > grid) > Some of the folks seem to suggest so. Others maybe not so much. > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Oct 26 17:09:44 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 17:09:44 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Life off grid - communitas? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It turns out that Wednesday in LCHC we are discussing Latour's article on waiting for Gaia. I attach it for those interested. It raises Huw's concerns and multiplies them by a few terawatts. Just in time for Halloween! mike On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > That looks like a compelling film, Greg. Is 'off the grid' used > metaphorically, i.e. is it about living away from societal norms, or is it > principally about generating their own power etc? > > I have always thought it rather telling that the skills that society at > large tends to value the most (finance, entertainment) are invariably the > most useless when it comes to living within a small community. Maybe, > maybe, this is because community is not something easily achieved outside > of settings of co-dependence that are not mediated by money, qualifications > etc. > > Then again, one has to ask about the nature of a production documenting a > more independent way of living whilst simultaneously reconnecting with > societal values by lugging a wide-lens camera around with homesteaders at > one end of the camera and a series of official film selection committees at > the other end of apparatus. Is there some kind of hipster quality to that, > about being radically happy in the city centre or radically happy out in > remote places, provided the umbilical chord isn't cut? Or is it more > simply communities celebrating their existence and survival -- "we're here > and we do things differently". > > Either way, what seems to be interesting for me here is the change in > meaning for basic skills and community values that seem to go hand in hand > with 'disconnecting'. > > Best, > Huw > > On 25 October 2015 at 02:30, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Is this a new form of communitas: > > http://lifeoffgrid.ca/ > > (link is to a 3 minute trailer for a movie about folks living life off > the > > grid) > > Some of the folks seem to suggest so. Others maybe not so much. > > -greg > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: latour-gaia.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1439308 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151026/a771648a/attachment-0001.pdf From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Oct 27 07:55:32 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 07:55:32 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Life off grid - communitas? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, Huw, Greg, I have just read Latour's wonderful and provocative exploration of the disconnect between earth and earthlings and his sense that we have lost the sense of the *sublime* and must search for an answer in rearranging emerging assemblances imagined AS nodes, tapestries, and weaving strands of being/becoming. Latour wants to "bridge" the gap [the disconnect] with earthlings on one side and Gaia on the other side. Gaia's fundamental feature is that of the "trickster". Greg sent a link to living off the grid and asked if this expressed *communitas*? I experienced the examples as very heroic and trusting in being rugged individualism. I hope we can engage with this thread. I will point out that Latour emphasized there are no nodes, knots, weaves, and TAPESTRIES without the open spaces, and I want to call attention to this fact. My imaginal *spaces as places* asks if we must envision SHARED LOCAL PLACES where there exist *inter (-) mediate* assembled assemblances where the STRONG Ich [capital I] becomes the WEAK ich [small I] which opens up imaginal *third* spaces for *du* [intimate you]. Spaces of shared dialogue where Gaia as trickster/Hermes is honoured. A place of hope and dread with always a gap. The place of intervals and "ma". Latour is engendering grand narratives/myths with *disconnects* [as falling away from ...]. A neo-Platonic myth. Larry On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 5:09 PM, mike cole wrote: > It turns out that Wednesday in LCHC we are discussing Latour's article on > waiting for Gaia. I attach it for those interested. It raises Huw's > concerns and multiplies them by a few terawatts. > > Just in time for Halloween! > > mike > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > That looks like a compelling film, Greg. Is 'off the grid' used > > metaphorically, i.e. is it about living away from societal norms, or is > it > > principally about generating their own power etc? > > > > I have always thought it rather telling that the skills that society at > > large tends to value the most (finance, entertainment) are invariably the > > most useless when it comes to living within a small community. Maybe, > > maybe, this is because community is not something easily achieved outside > > of settings of co-dependence that are not mediated by money, > qualifications > > etc. > > > > Then again, one has to ask about the nature of a production documenting a > > more independent way of living whilst simultaneously reconnecting with > > societal values by lugging a wide-lens camera around with homesteaders at > > one end of the camera and a series of official film selection committees > at > > the other end of apparatus. Is there some kind of hipster quality to > that, > > about being radically happy in the city centre or radically happy out in > > remote places, provided the umbilical chord isn't cut? Or is it more > > simply communities celebrating their existence and survival -- "we're > here > > and we do things differently". > > > > Either way, what seems to be interesting for me here is the change in > > meaning for basic skills and community values that seem to go hand in > hand > > with 'disconnecting'. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > On 25 October 2015 at 02:30, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > > > > Is this a new form of communitas: > > > http://lifeoffgrid.ca/ > > > (link is to a 3 minute trailer for a movie about folks living life off > > the > > > grid) > > > Some of the folks seem to suggest so. Others maybe not so much. > > > -greg > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Oct 27 09:03:45 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 16:03:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Life off grid - communitas? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, but I disagree with the hook-ups with the capacity for the sublime wonder or notions of guilt and morality. These are experienced, for sure, but I think this is really something extra that is brought to the fray by those with the freedom and capacity to be sensitive and responsive towards it in their own idiosyncratic ways. There seems to a rather large matter of overlooking that the leviathon of 'humanity' is actually composed of architectures we have yet to understand. And, moreover, it is not the object of wonder that induces wonder, but rather the capacities and inclinations of the subject. The brief still point in the article (is it an article?) is the observation and reminder that a great many people are in thrall of the idea of unmediated knowledge, which is something to complement the usual anti-ideas of simplicity and description. If we live in virtual sanitised worlds in which the small problems of nature are kept at bay, we lose our sensitivity to anything of any greater power. For those people who have never elected to be curious, they really do not have an option other than to respond to that which is happening to them here and now. The underlying theme here seems to be, again, the disconnect between the (anti) idea of description (and discourse) and the notion that psychological developments that equate to the the realisation of powerful ideas such as mediated knowledge are dependent upon concrete activity, which is about facing reality. Huw On 27 October 2015 at 14:55, Larry Purss wrote: > Mike, Huw, Greg, > I have just read Latour's wonderful and provocative exploration of the > disconnect between earth and earthlings and his sense that we have lost the > sense of the *sublime* and must search for an answer in > rearranging emerging assemblances imagined AS nodes, tapestries, and > weaving strands of being/becoming. > > Latour wants to "bridge" the gap [the disconnect] with earthlings on one > side and Gaia on the other side. Gaia's fundamental feature is that of the > "trickster". > > Greg sent a link to living off the grid and asked if this expressed > *communitas*? I experienced the examples as very heroic and trusting in > being rugged individualism. > > I hope we can engage with this thread. I will point out that Latour > emphasized there are no nodes, knots, weaves, and TAPESTRIES without the > open spaces, and I want to call attention to this fact. My imaginal *spaces > as places* asks if we must envision SHARED LOCAL PLACES where there exist > *inter (-) mediate* assembled assemblances where the STRONG Ich [capital > I] becomes the WEAK ich [small I] which opens up imaginal *third* spaces > for *du* [intimate you]. Spaces of shared dialogue where Gaia as > trickster/Hermes is honoured. A place of hope and dread with always a gap. > The place of intervals and "ma". > Latour is engendering grand narratives/myths with *disconnects* [as falling > away from ...]. A neo-Platonic myth. > Larry > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 5:09 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > It turns out that Wednesday in LCHC we are discussing Latour's article on > > waiting for Gaia. I attach it for those interested. It raises Huw's > > concerns and multiplies them by a few terawatts. > > > > Just in time for Halloween! > > > > mike > > > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Huw Lloyd > > wrote: > > > > > That looks like a compelling film, Greg. Is 'off the grid' used > > > metaphorically, i.e. is it about living away from societal norms, or is > > it > > > principally about generating their own power etc? > > > > > > I have always thought it rather telling that the skills that society at > > > large tends to value the most (finance, entertainment) are invariably > the > > > most useless when it comes to living within a small community. Maybe, > > > maybe, this is because community is not something easily achieved > outside > > > of settings of co-dependence that are not mediated by money, > > qualifications > > > etc. > > > > > > Then again, one has to ask about the nature of a production > documenting a > > > more independent way of living whilst simultaneously reconnecting with > > > societal values by lugging a wide-lens camera around with homesteaders > at > > > one end of the camera and a series of official film selection > committees > > at > > > the other end of apparatus. Is there some kind of hipster quality to > > that, > > > about being radically happy in the city centre or radically happy out > in > > > remote places, provided the umbilical chord isn't cut? Or is it more > > > simply communities celebrating their existence and survival -- "we're > > here > > > and we do things differently". > > > > > > Either way, what seems to be interesting for me here is the change in > > > meaning for basic skills and community values that seem to go hand in > > hand > > > with 'disconnecting'. > > > > > > Best, > > > Huw > > > > > > On 25 October 2015 at 02:30, Greg Thompson > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Is this a new form of communitas: > > > > http://lifeoffgrid.ca/ > > > > (link is to a 3 minute trailer for a movie about folks living life > off > > > the > > > > grid) > > > > Some of the folks seem to suggest so. Others maybe not so much. > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Oct 27 10:07:41 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 10:07:41 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Life off grid - communitas? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huw, I noticed the juxtaposition of description/discourse AS [anti]idea on one side with mediated knowledge generating powerful ideas WITHIN concrete activities on the other side. I question whether *discourse* actually straddles this either/or divide. Locating concrete activity AND discourse on the same side as the location for engendering the development of mediated knowledge. [including the mediated understanding of types of *discourse* coursing through architectures] On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Yes, but I disagree with the hook-ups with the capacity for the sublime > wonder or notions of guilt and morality. These are experienced, for sure, > but I think this is really something extra that is brought to the fray by > those with the freedom and capacity to be sensitive and responsive towards > it in their own idiosyncratic ways. There seems to a rather large matter > of overlooking that the leviathon of 'humanity' is actually composed of > architectures we have yet to understand. And, moreover, it is not the > object of wonder that induces wonder, but rather the capacities and > inclinations of the subject. > > The brief still point in the article (is it an article?) is the observation > and reminder that a great many people are in thrall of the idea of > unmediated knowledge, which is something to complement the usual anti-ideas > of simplicity and description. > > If we live in virtual sanitised worlds in which the small problems of > nature are kept at bay, we lose our sensitivity to anything of any greater > power. For those people who have never elected to be curious, they really > do not have an option other than to respond to that which is happening to > them here and now. The underlying theme here seems to be, again, the > disconnect between the (anti) idea of description (and discourse) and the > notion that psychological developments that equate to the the realisation > of powerful ideas such as mediated knowledge are dependent upon concrete > activity, which is about facing reality. > > Huw > > > > On 27 October 2015 at 14:55, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Mike, Huw, Greg, > > I have just read Latour's wonderful and provocative exploration of the > > disconnect between earth and earthlings and his sense that we have lost > the > > sense of the *sublime* and must search for an answer in > > rearranging emerging assemblances imagined AS nodes, tapestries, and > > weaving strands of being/becoming. > > > > Latour wants to "bridge" the gap [the disconnect] with earthlings on one > > side and Gaia on the other side. Gaia's fundamental feature is that of > the > > "trickster". > > > > Greg sent a link to living off the grid and asked if this expressed > > *communitas*? I experienced the examples as very heroic and trusting in > > being rugged individualism. > > > > I hope we can engage with this thread. I will point out that Latour > > emphasized there are no nodes, knots, weaves, and TAPESTRIES without the > > open spaces, and I want to call attention to this fact. My imaginal > *spaces > > as places* asks if we must envision SHARED LOCAL PLACES where there exist > > *inter (-) mediate* assembled assemblances where the STRONG Ich [capital > > I] becomes the WEAK ich [small I] which opens up imaginal *third* spaces > > for *du* [intimate you]. Spaces of shared dialogue where Gaia as > > trickster/Hermes is honoured. A place of hope and dread with always a > gap. > > The place of intervals and "ma". > > Latour is engendering grand narratives/myths with *disconnects* [as > falling > > away from ...]. A neo-Platonic myth. > > Larry > > > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 5:09 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > It turns out that Wednesday in LCHC we are discussing Latour's article > on > > > waiting for Gaia. I attach it for those interested. It raises Huw's > > > concerns and multiplies them by a few terawatts. > > > > > > Just in time for Halloween! > > > > > > mike > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Huw Lloyd > > > wrote: > > > > > > > That looks like a compelling film, Greg. Is 'off the grid' used > > > > metaphorically, i.e. is it about living away from societal norms, or > is > > > it > > > > principally about generating their own power etc? > > > > > > > > I have always thought it rather telling that the skills that society > at > > > > large tends to value the most (finance, entertainment) are invariably > > the > > > > most useless when it comes to living within a small community. > Maybe, > > > > maybe, this is because community is not something easily achieved > > outside > > > > of settings of co-dependence that are not mediated by money, > > > qualifications > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > Then again, one has to ask about the nature of a production > > documenting a > > > > more independent way of living whilst simultaneously reconnecting > with > > > > societal values by lugging a wide-lens camera around with > homesteaders > > at > > > > one end of the camera and a series of official film selection > > committees > > > at > > > > the other end of apparatus. Is there some kind of hipster quality to > > > that, > > > > about being radically happy in the city centre or radically happy out > > in > > > > remote places, provided the umbilical chord isn't cut? Or is it more > > > > simply communities celebrating their existence and survival -- "we're > > > here > > > > and we do things differently". > > > > > > > > Either way, what seems to be interesting for me here is the change in > > > > meaning for basic skills and community values that seem to go hand in > > > hand > > > > with 'disconnecting'. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Huw > > > > > > > > On 25 October 2015 at 02:30, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Is this a new form of communitas: > > > > > http://lifeoffgrid.ca/ > > > > > (link is to a 3 minute trailer for a movie about folks living life > > off > > > > the > > > > > grid) > > > > > Some of the folks seem to suggest so. Others maybe not so much. > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Oct 27 10:31:44 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 17:31:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Life off grid - communitas? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well I would question that too, Larry. What makes you think it is either/or? It is possible to be interested in description without having ones purview limited by it. Best, Huw On 27 October 2015 at 17:07, Larry Purss wrote: > Huw, > I noticed the juxtaposition of description/discourse AS [anti]idea on one > side with mediated knowledge generating powerful ideas WITHIN concrete > activities on the other side. > > I question whether *discourse* actually straddles this either/or divide. > Locating concrete activity AND discourse on the same side as the location > for engendering the development of mediated knowledge. [including the > mediated understanding of types of *discourse* coursing through > architectures] > > On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > Yes, but I disagree with the hook-ups with the capacity for the sublime > > wonder or notions of guilt and morality. These are experienced, for > sure, > > but I think this is really something extra that is brought to the fray by > > those with the freedom and capacity to be sensitive and responsive > towards > > it in their own idiosyncratic ways. There seems to a rather large matter > > of overlooking that the leviathon of 'humanity' is actually composed of > > architectures we have yet to understand. And, moreover, it is not the > > object of wonder that induces wonder, but rather the capacities and > > inclinations of the subject. > > > > The brief still point in the article (is it an article?) is the > observation > > and reminder that a great many people are in thrall of the idea of > > unmediated knowledge, which is something to complement the usual > anti-ideas > > of simplicity and description. > > > > If we live in virtual sanitised worlds in which the small problems of > > nature are kept at bay, we lose our sensitivity to anything of any > greater > > power. For those people who have never elected to be curious, they > really > > do not have an option other than to respond to that which is happening to > > them here and now. The underlying theme here seems to be, again, the > > disconnect between the (anti) idea of description (and discourse) and the > > notion that psychological developments that equate to the the realisation > > of powerful ideas such as mediated knowledge are dependent upon concrete > > activity, which is about facing reality. > > > > Huw > > > > > > > > On 27 October 2015 at 14:55, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > > Mike, Huw, Greg, > > > I have just read Latour's wonderful and provocative exploration of the > > > disconnect between earth and earthlings and his sense that we have lost > > the > > > sense of the *sublime* and must search for an answer in > > > rearranging emerging assemblances imagined AS nodes, tapestries, and > > > weaving strands of being/becoming. > > > > > > Latour wants to "bridge" the gap [the disconnect] with earthlings on > one > > > side and Gaia on the other side. Gaia's fundamental feature is that of > > the > > > "trickster". > > > > > > Greg sent a link to living off the grid and asked if this expressed > > > *communitas*? I experienced the examples as very heroic and trusting in > > > being rugged individualism. > > > > > > I hope we can engage with this thread. I will point out that Latour > > > emphasized there are no nodes, knots, weaves, and TAPESTRIES without > the > > > open spaces, and I want to call attention to this fact. My imaginal > > *spaces > > > as places* asks if we must envision SHARED LOCAL PLACES where there > exist > > > *inter (-) mediate* assembled assemblances where the STRONG Ich > [capital > > > I] becomes the WEAK ich [small I] which opens up imaginal *third* > spaces > > > for *du* [intimate you]. Spaces of shared dialogue where Gaia as > > > trickster/Hermes is honoured. A place of hope and dread with always a > > gap. > > > The place of intervals and "ma". > > > Latour is engendering grand narratives/myths with *disconnects* [as > > falling > > > away from ...]. A neo-Platonic myth. > > > Larry > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 5:09 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > It turns out that Wednesday in LCHC we are discussing Latour's > article > > on > > > > waiting for Gaia. I attach it for those interested. It raises Huw's > > > > concerns and multiplies them by a few terawatts. > > > > > > > > Just in time for Halloween! > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Huw Lloyd < > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > That looks like a compelling film, Greg. Is 'off the grid' used > > > > > metaphorically, i.e. is it about living away from societal norms, > or > > is > > > > it > > > > > principally about generating their own power etc? > > > > > > > > > > I have always thought it rather telling that the skills that > society > > at > > > > > large tends to value the most (finance, entertainment) are > invariably > > > the > > > > > most useless when it comes to living within a small community. > > Maybe, > > > > > maybe, this is because community is not something easily achieved > > > outside > > > > > of settings of co-dependence that are not mediated by money, > > > > qualifications > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > Then again, one has to ask about the nature of a production > > > documenting a > > > > > more independent way of living whilst simultaneously reconnecting > > with > > > > > societal values by lugging a wide-lens camera around with > > homesteaders > > > at > > > > > one end of the camera and a series of official film selection > > > committees > > > > at > > > > > the other end of apparatus. Is there some kind of hipster quality > to > > > > that, > > > > > about being radically happy in the city centre or radically happy > out > > > in > > > > > remote places, provided the umbilical chord isn't cut? Or is it > more > > > > > simply communities celebrating their existence and survival -- > "we're > > > > here > > > > > and we do things differently". > > > > > > > > > > Either way, what seems to be interesting for me here is the change > in > > > > > meaning for basic skills and community values that seem to go hand > in > > > > hand > > > > > with 'disconnecting'. > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > On 25 October 2015 at 02:30, Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Is this a new form of communitas: > > > > > > http://lifeoffgrid.ca/ > > > > > > (link is to a 3 minute trailer for a movie about folks living > life > > > off > > > > > the > > > > > > grid) > > > > > > Some of the folks seem to suggest so. Others maybe not so much. > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Oct 27 10:54:35 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 10:54:35 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Life off grid - communitas? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562fba82.21bf440a.128a9.4394@mx.google.com> Yes. I will also bring in Andy's point from Jane Jacobs that we do start in the local places and have as a criteria of health shared values that we care for our children. To go off the grid may be one particular experimental project participating in concrete activities Where new ideas (mediated knowledge's) become architectures. However i propose these places have a sense of being SHARED local places with porous boundaries. Communitas. -----Original Message----- From: "Huw Lloyd" Sent: ?2015-?10-?27 10:37 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Life off grid - communitas? Well I would question that too, Larry. What makes you think it is either/or? It is possible to be interested in description without having ones purview limited by it. Best, Huw On 27 October 2015 at 17:07, Larry Purss wrote: > Huw, > I noticed the juxtaposition of description/discourse AS [anti]idea on one > side with mediated knowledge generating powerful ideas WITHIN concrete > activities on the other side. > > I question whether *discourse* actually straddles this either/or divide. > Locating concrete activity AND discourse on the same side as the location > for engendering the development of mediated knowledge. [including the > mediated understanding of types of *discourse* coursing through > architectures] > > On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > Yes, but I disagree with the hook-ups with the capacity for the sublime > > wonder or notions of guilt and morality. These are experienced, for > sure, > > but I think this is really something extra that is brought to the fray by > > those with the freedom and capacity to be sensitive and responsive > towards > > it in their own idiosyncratic ways. There seems to a rather large matter > > of overlooking that the leviathon of 'humanity' is actually composed of > > architectures we have yet to understand. And, moreover, it is not the > > object of wonder that induces wonder, but rather the capacities and > > inclinations of the subject. > > > > The brief still point in the article (is it an article?) is the > observation > > and reminder that a great many people are in thrall of the idea of > > unmediated knowledge, which is something to complement the usual > anti-ideas > > of simplicity and description. > > > > If we live in virtual sanitised worlds in which the small problems of > > nature are kept at bay, we lose our sensitivity to anything of any > greater > > power. For those people who have never elected to be curious, they > really > > do not have an option other than to respond to that which is happening to > > them here and now. The underlying theme here seems to be, again, the > > disconnect between the (anti) idea of description (and discourse) and the > > notion that psychological developments that equate to the the realisation > > of powerful ideas such as mediated knowledge are dependent upon concrete > > activity, which is about facing reality. > > > > Huw > > > > > > > > On 27 October 2015 at 14:55, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > > Mike, Huw, Greg, > > > I have just read Latour's wonderful and provocative exploration of the > > > disconnect between earth and earthlings and his sense that we have lost > > the > > > sense of the *sublime* and must search for an answer in > > > rearranging emerging assemblances imagined AS nodes, tapestries, and > > > weaving strands of being/becoming. > > > > > > Latour wants to "bridge" the gap [the disconnect] with earthlings on > one > > > side and Gaia on the other side. Gaia's fundamental feature is that of > > the > > > "trickster". > > > > > > Greg sent a link to living off the grid and asked if this expressed > > > *communitas*? I experienced the examples as very heroic and trusting in > > > being rugged individualism. > > > > > > I hope we can engage with this thread. I will point out that Latour > > > emphasized there are no nodes, knots, weaves, and TAPESTRIES without > the > > > open spaces, and I want to call attention to this fact. My imaginal > > *spaces > > > as places* asks if we must envision SHARED LOCAL PLACES where there > exist > > > *inter (-) mediate* assembled assemblances where the STRONG Ich > [capital > > > I] becomes the WEAK ich [small I] which opens up imaginal *third* > spaces > > > for *du* [intimate you]. Spaces of shared dialogue where Gaia as > > > trickster/Hermes is honoured. A place of hope and dread with always a > > gap. > > > The place of intervals and "ma". > > > Latour is engendering grand narratives/myths with *disconnects* [as > > falling > > > away from ...]. A neo-Platonic myth. > > > Larry > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 5:09 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > It turns out that Wednesday in LCHC we are discussing Latour's > article > > on > > > > waiting for Gaia. I attach it for those interested. It raises Huw's > > > > concerns and multiplies them by a few terawatts. > > > > > > > > Just in time for Halloween! > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Huw Lloyd < > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > That looks like a compelling film, Greg. Is 'off the grid' used > > > > > metaphorically, i.e. is it about living away from societal norms, > or > > is > > > > it > > > > > principally about generating their own power etc? > > > > > > > > > > I have always thought it rather telling that the skills that > society > > at > > > > > large tends to value the most (finance, entertainment) are > invariably > > > the > > > > > most useless when it comes to living within a small community. > > Maybe, > > > > > maybe, this is because community is not something easily achieved > > > outside > > > > > of settings of co-dependence that are not mediated by money, > > > > qualifications > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > Then again, one has to ask about the nature of a production > > > documenting a > > > > > more independent way of living whilst simultaneously reconnecting > > with > > > > > societal values by lugging a wide-lens camera around with > > homesteaders > > > at > > > > > one end of the camera and a series of official film selection > > > committees > > > > at > > > > > the other end of apparatus. Is there some kind of hipster quality > to > > > > that, > > > > > about being radically happy in the city centre or radically happy > out > > > in > > > > > remote places, provided the umbilical chord isn't cut? Or is it > more > > > > > simply communities celebrating their existence and survival -- > "we're > > > > here > > > > > and we do things differently". > > > > > > > > > > Either way, what seems to be interesting for me here is the change > in > > > > > meaning for basic skills and community values that seem to go hand > in > > > > hand > > > > > with 'disconnecting'. > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > On 25 October 2015 at 02:30, Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Is this a new form of communitas: > > > > > > http://lifeoffgrid.ca/ > > > > > > (link is to a 3 minute trailer for a movie about folks living > life > > > off > > > > > the > > > > > > grid) > > > > > > Some of the folks seem to suggest so. Others maybe not so much. > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Tue Oct 27 12:22:04 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 19:22:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Life off grid - communitas? In-Reply-To: <562fba82.21bf440a.128a9.4394@mx.google.com> References: <562fba82.21bf440a.128a9.4394@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <44F672F0-883E-453F-B4DA-58B1C6F4A49C@uniandes.edu.co> Well, if we're discussing Latour, we should consider his point that *all* views are local! :) Martin On Oct 27, 2015, at 12:54 PM, Lplarry wrote: > Yes. > I will also bring in Andy's point from Jane Jacobs that we do start in the local places and have as a criteria of health shared values that we care for our children. > To go off the grid may be one particular experimental project participating in concrete activities > Where new ideas (mediated knowledge's) become architectures. However i propose these places have a sense of being SHARED local places with porous boundaries. Communitas. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Huw Lloyd" > Sent: ?2015-?10-?27 10:37 AM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Life off grid - communitas? > > Well I would question that too, Larry. What makes you think it is > either/or? It is possible to be interested in description without having > ones purview limited by it. > > Best, > Huw > > On 27 October 2015 at 17:07, Larry Purss wrote: > >> Huw, >> I noticed the juxtaposition of description/discourse AS [anti]idea on one >> side with mediated knowledge generating powerful ideas WITHIN concrete >> activities on the other side. >> >> I question whether *discourse* actually straddles this either/or divide. >> Locating concrete activity AND discourse on the same side as the location >> for engendering the development of mediated knowledge. [including the >> mediated understanding of types of *discourse* coursing through >> architectures] >> >> On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >>> Yes, but I disagree with the hook-ups with the capacity for the sublime >>> wonder or notions of guilt and morality. These are experienced, for >> sure, >>> but I think this is really something extra that is brought to the fray by >>> those with the freedom and capacity to be sensitive and responsive >> towards >>> it in their own idiosyncratic ways. There seems to a rather large matter >>> of overlooking that the leviathon of 'humanity' is actually composed of >>> architectures we have yet to understand. And, moreover, it is not the >>> object of wonder that induces wonder, but rather the capacities and >>> inclinations of the subject. >>> >>> The brief still point in the article (is it an article?) is the >> observation >>> and reminder that a great many people are in thrall of the idea of >>> unmediated knowledge, which is something to complement the usual >> anti-ideas >>> of simplicity and description. >>> >>> If we live in virtual sanitised worlds in which the small problems of >>> nature are kept at bay, we lose our sensitivity to anything of any >> greater >>> power. For those people who have never elected to be curious, they >> really >>> do not have an option other than to respond to that which is happening to >>> them here and now. The underlying theme here seems to be, again, the >>> disconnect between the (anti) idea of description (and discourse) and the >>> notion that psychological developments that equate to the the realisation >>> of powerful ideas such as mediated knowledge are dependent upon concrete >>> activity, which is about facing reality. >>> >>> Huw >>> >>> >>> >>> On 27 October 2015 at 14:55, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>>> Mike, Huw, Greg, >>>> I have just read Latour's wonderful and provocative exploration of the >>>> disconnect between earth and earthlings and his sense that we have lost >>> the >>>> sense of the *sublime* and must search for an answer in >>>> rearranging emerging assemblances imagined AS nodes, tapestries, and >>>> weaving strands of being/becoming. >>>> >>>> Latour wants to "bridge" the gap [the disconnect] with earthlings on >> one >>>> side and Gaia on the other side. Gaia's fundamental feature is that of >>> the >>>> "trickster". >>>> >>>> Greg sent a link to living off the grid and asked if this expressed >>>> *communitas*? I experienced the examples as very heroic and trusting in >>>> being rugged individualism. >>>> >>>> I hope we can engage with this thread. I will point out that Latour >>>> emphasized there are no nodes, knots, weaves, and TAPESTRIES without >> the >>>> open spaces, and I want to call attention to this fact. My imaginal >>> *spaces >>>> as places* asks if we must envision SHARED LOCAL PLACES where there >> exist >>>> *inter (-) mediate* assembled assemblances where the STRONG Ich >> [capital >>>> I] becomes the WEAK ich [small I] which opens up imaginal *third* >> spaces >>>> for *du* [intimate you]. Spaces of shared dialogue where Gaia as >>>> trickster/Hermes is honoured. A place of hope and dread with always a >>> gap. >>>> The place of intervals and "ma". >>>> Latour is engendering grand narratives/myths with *disconnects* [as >>> falling >>>> away from ...]. A neo-Platonic myth. >>>> Larry >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 5:09 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>>> It turns out that Wednesday in LCHC we are discussing Latour's >> article >>> on >>>>> waiting for Gaia. I attach it for those interested. It raises Huw's >>>>> concerns and multiplies them by a few terawatts. >>>>> >>>>> Just in time for Halloween! >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Huw Lloyd < >> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> That looks like a compelling film, Greg. Is 'off the grid' used >>>>>> metaphorically, i.e. is it about living away from societal norms, >> or >>> is >>>>> it >>>>>> principally about generating their own power etc? >>>>>> >>>>>> I have always thought it rather telling that the skills that >> society >>> at >>>>>> large tends to value the most (finance, entertainment) are >> invariably >>>> the >>>>>> most useless when it comes to living within a small community. >>> Maybe, >>>>>> maybe, this is because community is not something easily achieved >>>> outside >>>>>> of settings of co-dependence that are not mediated by money, >>>>> qualifications >>>>>> etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Then again, one has to ask about the nature of a production >>>> documenting a >>>>>> more independent way of living whilst simultaneously reconnecting >>> with >>>>>> societal values by lugging a wide-lens camera around with >>> homesteaders >>>> at >>>>>> one end of the camera and a series of official film selection >>>> committees >>>>> at >>>>>> the other end of apparatus. Is there some kind of hipster quality >> to >>>>> that, >>>>>> about being radically happy in the city centre or radically happy >> out >>>> in >>>>>> remote places, provided the umbilical chord isn't cut? Or is it >> more >>>>>> simply communities celebrating their existence and survival -- >> "we're >>>>> here >>>>>> and we do things differently". >>>>>> >>>>>> Either way, what seems to be interesting for me here is the change >> in >>>>>> meaning for basic skills and community values that seem to go hand >> in >>>>> hand >>>>>> with 'disconnecting'. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Huw >>>>>> >>>>>> On 25 October 2015 at 02:30, Greg Thompson < >>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Is this a new form of communitas: >>>>>>> http://lifeoffgrid.ca/ >>>>>>> (link is to a 3 minute trailer for a movie about folks living >> life >>>> off >>>>>> the >>>>>>> grid) >>>>>>> Some of the folks seem to suggest so. Others maybe not so much. >>>>>>> -greg >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>>> >>>> >>> >> From j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca Fri Oct 30 09:44:05 2015 From: j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca (Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 16:44:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Article for Discussion Message-ID: <12DDE35C-CDC4-4515-9A01-C0CD07327199@mail.ubc.ca> Dear XMCAers, The special issue of Mind, Culture, and Activity on Engaged Philosophical Inquiry is up and running. http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current Kim Skinner, author of Acts of thinking: At school but not during school, has graciously agreed to make herself available for dialogue about her article on XMCA. If you have a moment to access and review the article, perhaps we can begin discussion early or mid next week? Best to all, jen From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Oct 30 20:56:52 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 20:56:52 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion In-Reply-To: <12DDE35C-CDC4-4515-9A01-C0CD07327199@mail.ubc.ca> References: <12DDE35C-CDC4-4515-9A01-C0CD07327199@mail.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Jennifer and Kim, This months article is sure to generate conversation. The 2nd paragraph on page 358 caught my attention. "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for their claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority and reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on reasoning increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue transformed through group members practising in dialogue with each other." The question this generates concerns the notion of *space* of reasons. I hear a transfiguration from *foundational rule based* space TO *dialogical space* OF reasons. However are there other possible *spaces* of reason beyond either foundational or dialogical *spaces* of reason. For example *situational spaces* or *creative spaces* OF reason. Using a dramatical metaphor or table metaphor could the dialogical *space of reasons* be a particular type of situation as answer to foundational rule based reason, but the deeper truth is that we are setting the table for multiple fluid "spaces* of reasoning. To justify claims may be deeply implicated WITHIN plural notions of *spaces*. Not either foundational or dialogical *spaces* but expanding to multiple mixtures of various notions of reasons. This in no way questions dialogical spaces of reason [as thinking] but invites deeper exploration to how we orient to these multiple *spaces* [each of which offers justifications.] To describe justification as re- semblance to a board game focuses attention on the RULES of the game. THIS is a norm based image of reasoning justifying moving *points* on the board as preconceived grid. Situational *spaces* of reason are more creative *spaces* of justification that are also historically implicated but more open to novelty. The question of justification is complicated and the relation of the 4 types of justification far more entangled than reason [foundational or dialogical] overcoming the other 3 types assumes. The orientation moving away from foundational spaces of reason to dialogical spaces of reason is a profound transfiguration. It opens the space of reason to creative novelty. It is possible to continue going deeper to explore the profound depth of situations as *spaces* of reason. This months journal is moving across traditions and authorities and experiences. The concept of *situational* spaces is the Pragmatic tradition. Philosophical hermeneutics uses the concept *spaces of play*. Are concepts merely *resources* or do they exhibit other characteristics?. Dewey explored two notions of "have" A possessive "have" and a relational "have" [We have a friend]. We cannot possess *spaces* These *third* spaces have us and we *undergo* experiences WITHIN these spaces. The *space* of reasons also has this quality of being more than "resources" to use in our practices of justification. Reasons are more than tools of self management and self discipline. They are also *spaces* which have us. Reason is being re-thought and re-worked and will need multiple *settings* to stage this activity. The space of reasons as dialogical is one particular and valid and true space of justification. It is not the only space. Generating notions of *situations* and *spaces of play* and *zones* are speaking this multi-verse being acted out as dramas. The after school setting created a particular situation opening up a particular stage like *space* for generating particular types of justification. It was a *third* space in which the dialogical comes to the foreground. Ground is a fluid concept as is the concept of *concrete* experience. Creative worlds emerge or unfold within these *spaces* but they are not fundamentally grounded or permanently rule based. These worlds are foregrounded and backgrounded within particular situations [spaces of play] but they are primarily unknown on their way to be/coming known without end. On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca> wrote: > Dear XMCAers, > > The special issue of Mind, Culture, and Activity on Engaged Philosophical > Inquiry is up and running. > > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current > > Kim Skinner, author of Acts of thinking: At school but not during school, > has graciously agreed to make herself available for dialogue about her > article on XMCA. > > If you have a moment to access and review the article, perhaps we can > begin discussion early or mid next week? > > Best to all, jen > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Fri Oct 30 22:17:56 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 16:17:56 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion In-Reply-To: References: <12DDE35C-CDC4-4515-9A01-C0CD07327199@mail.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <56344F04.90105@mira.net> Looks like a stunning issue, Jen! Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 31/10/2015 2:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Jennifer and Kim, > This months article is sure to generate conversation. > The 2nd paragraph on page 358 caught my attention. > "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for their > claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority and > reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on reasoning > increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue transformed through > group members practising in dialogue with each other." > > The question this generates concerns the notion of *space* of reasons. I > hear a transfiguration from *foundational rule based* space TO *dialogical > space* OF reasons. > > However are there other possible *spaces* of reason beyond either > foundational or dialogical *spaces* of reason. For example *situational > spaces* or *creative spaces* OF reason. > Using a dramatical metaphor or table metaphor could the dialogical *space > of reasons* be a particular type of situation as answer to foundational > rule based reason, but the deeper truth is that we are setting the table > for multiple fluid "spaces* of reasoning. To justify claims may be deeply > implicated WITHIN plural notions of *spaces*. > Not either foundational or dialogical *spaces* but expanding to multiple > mixtures of various notions of reasons. > This in no way questions dialogical spaces of reason [as thinking] but > invites deeper exploration to how we orient to these multiple *spaces* > [each of which offers justifications.] > > To describe justification as re- semblance to a board game focuses > attention on the RULES of the game. THIS is a norm based image of > reasoning justifying moving *points* on the board as preconceived > grid. Situational *spaces* of reason are more creative *spaces* of > justification that are also historically implicated but more open to > novelty. > The question of justification is complicated and the relation of the 4 > types of justification far more entangled than reason [foundational or > dialogical] overcoming the other 3 types assumes. > > The orientation moving away from foundational spaces of reason to > dialogical spaces of reason is a profound transfiguration. It opens the > space of reason to creative novelty. It is possible to continue going > deeper to explore the profound depth of situations as *spaces* of reason. > > This months journal is moving across traditions and authorities and > experiences. The concept of *situational* spaces is the Pragmatic > tradition. Philosophical hermeneutics uses the concept *spaces of play*. > Are concepts merely *resources* or do they exhibit other characteristics?. > Dewey explored two notions of "have" > A possessive "have" and a relational "have" [We have a friend]. We cannot > possess *spaces* These *third* spaces have us and we *undergo* experiences > WITHIN these spaces. > > The *space* of reasons also has this quality of being more than "resources" > to use in our practices of justification. Reasons are more than tools of > self management and self discipline. They are also *spaces* which have us. > > Reason is being re-thought and re-worked and will need multiple *settings* > to stage this activity. The space of reasons as dialogical is one > particular and valid and true space of justification. It is not the only > space. > Generating notions of *situations* and *spaces of play* and *zones* are > speaking this multi-verse being acted out as dramas. > > The after school setting created a particular situation opening up a > particular stage like *space* for generating particular types of > justification. It was a *third* space in which the dialogical comes to the > foreground. Ground is a fluid concept as is the concept of *concrete* > experience. Creative worlds emerge or unfold within these *spaces* but they > are not fundamentally grounded or permanently rule based. These worlds are > foregrounded and backgrounded within particular situations [spaces of play] > but they are primarily unknown on their way to be/coming known without end. > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < > j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca> wrote: > >> Dear XMCAers, >> >> The special issue of Mind, Culture, and Activity on Engaged Philosophical >> Inquiry is up and running. >> >> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current >> >> Kim Skinner, author of Acts of thinking: At school but not during school, >> has graciously agreed to make herself available for dialogue about her >> article on XMCA. >> >> If you have a moment to access and review the article, perhaps we can >> begin discussion early or mid next week? >> >> Best to all, jen >> >> >> >> > From anamshane@gmail.com Sat Oct 31 09:00:21 2015 From: anamshane@gmail.com (Ana Marjanovic-Shane) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 12:00:21 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion In-Reply-To: <56344F04.90105@mira.net> References: <12DDE35C-CDC4-4515-9A01-C0CD07327199@mail.ubc.ca> <56344F04.90105@mira.net> Message-ID: Jen, This is a great issue!!! Thanks a lot! Ana ___________________________________________ Ana Marjanovic-Shane Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal Associate Professor of Education Chestnut Hill College Philadelphia, PA e-mail: anamshane@gmail.com phone: +(267) 334-2905 On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 1:17 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Looks like a stunning issue, Jen! > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > On 31/10/2015 2:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > >> Jennifer and Kim, >> This months article is sure to generate conversation. >> The 2nd paragraph on page 358 caught my attention. >> "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for their >> claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority and >> reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on reasoning >> increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue transformed through >> group members practising in dialogue with each other." >> >> The question this generates concerns the notion of *space* of reasons. I >> hear a transfiguration from *foundational rule based* space TO *dialogical >> space* OF reasons. >> >> However are there other possible *spaces* of reason beyond either >> foundational or dialogical *spaces* of reason. For example *situational >> spaces* or *creative spaces* OF reason. >> Using a dramatical metaphor or table metaphor could the dialogical *space >> of reasons* be a particular type of situation as answer to foundational >> rule based reason, but the deeper truth is that we are setting the table >> for multiple fluid "spaces* of reasoning. To justify claims may be deeply >> implicated WITHIN plural notions of *spaces*. >> Not either foundational or dialogical *spaces* but expanding to multiple >> mixtures of various notions of reasons. >> This in no way questions dialogical spaces of reason [as thinking] but >> invites deeper exploration to how we orient to these multiple *spaces* >> [each of which offers justifications.] >> >> To describe justification as re- semblance to a board game focuses >> attention on the RULES of the game. THIS is a norm based image of >> reasoning justifying moving *points* on the board as preconceived >> grid. Situational *spaces* of reason are more creative *spaces* of >> justification that are also historically implicated but more open to >> novelty. >> The question of justification is complicated and the relation of the 4 >> types of justification far more entangled than reason [foundational or >> dialogical] overcoming the other 3 types assumes. >> >> The orientation moving away from foundational spaces of reason to >> dialogical spaces of reason is a profound transfiguration. It opens the >> space of reason to creative novelty. It is possible to continue going >> deeper to explore the profound depth of situations as *spaces* of reason. >> >> This months journal is moving across traditions and authorities and >> experiences. The concept of *situational* spaces is the Pragmatic >> tradition. Philosophical hermeneutics uses the concept *spaces of play*. >> Are concepts merely *resources* or do they exhibit other characteristics?. >> Dewey explored two notions of "have" >> A possessive "have" and a relational "have" [We have a friend]. We cannot >> possess *spaces* These *third* spaces have us and we *undergo* experiences >> WITHIN these spaces. >> >> The *space* of reasons also has this quality of being more than >> "resources" >> to use in our practices of justification. Reasons are more than tools of >> self management and self discipline. They are also *spaces* which have us. >> >> Reason is being re-thought and re-worked and will need multiple *settings* >> to stage this activity. The space of reasons as dialogical is one >> particular and valid and true space of justification. It is not the only >> space. >> Generating notions of *situations* and *spaces of play* and *zones* are >> speaking this multi-verse being acted out as dramas. >> >> The after school setting created a particular situation opening up a >> particular stage like *space* for generating particular types of >> justification. It was a *third* space in which the dialogical comes to the >> foreground. Ground is a fluid concept as is the concept of *concrete* >> experience. Creative worlds emerge or unfold within these *spaces* but >> they >> are not fundamentally grounded or permanently rule based. These worlds are >> foregrounded and backgrounded within particular situations [spaces of >> play] >> but they are primarily unknown on their way to be/coming known without >> end. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < >> j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca> wrote: >> >> Dear XMCAers, >>> >>> The special issue of Mind, Culture, and Activity on Engaged Philosophical >>> Inquiry is up and running. >>> >>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current >>> >>> Kim Skinner, author of Acts of thinking: At school but not during school, >>> has graciously agreed to make herself available for dialogue about her >>> article on XMCA. >>> >>> If you have a moment to access and review the article, perhaps we can >>> begin discussion early or mid next week? >>> >>> Best to all, jen >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > From j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca Sat Oct 31 09:36:29 2015 From: j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca (Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 16:36:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion In-Reply-To: <56344F04.90105@mira.net> References: <12DDE35C-CDC4-4515-9A01-C0CD07327199@mail.ubc.ca> <56344F04.90105@mira.net> Message-ID: Thanks for this, Andy, and thanks go to the lead editor Barbara Weber on this issue as well! For folks who would like to know more about it, the editorial is also available for free. There are 6 articles and 6 commentaries?we were working toward a more dialogic feel?that move across and between philosophy, psychology, and education. In addition, we were able to include a book review on Jan Derry's fascinating book, Vygotsky, philosophy and education. Our intention was to look at intersections of philosophy, psychology, and education and we were very fortunate to locate authors with both similar intentions and outstanding research to contribute. The congratulations go to them: Wendy Turgeon Christina Hendricks Eva Marsal Chiel van der Veen, Claudia van Kruistum, & Sarah Michaels Marjolein Dobber & Bert van Oers Claire Alkouatli, Negar Amini, and Jen Kim Skinner Doug Baker & Judith Green Kym Maclaren Peter Costello Susan Gardner & Daniel Anderson Natalie Fletcher Arthur Wolf Thanks to everyone! Now, on to discussions of Kim Skinner's article!! Best - jen On 2015-10-30, at 10:17 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Looks like a stunning issue, Jen! > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 31/10/2015 2:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >> Jennifer and Kim, >> This months article is sure to generate conversation. >> The 2nd paragraph on page 358 caught my attention. >> "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for their >> claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority and >> reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on reasoning >> increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue transformed through >> group members practising in dialogue with each other." >> >> The question this generates concerns the notion of *space* of reasons. I >> hear a transfiguration from *foundational rule based* space TO *dialogical >> space* OF reasons. >> >> However are there other possible *spaces* of reason beyond either >> foundational or dialogical *spaces* of reason. For example *situational >> spaces* or *creative spaces* OF reason. >> Using a dramatical metaphor or table metaphor could the dialogical *space >> of reasons* be a particular type of situation as answer to foundational >> rule based reason, but the deeper truth is that we are setting the table >> for multiple fluid "spaces* of reasoning. To justify claims may be deeply >> implicated WITHIN plural notions of *spaces*. >> Not either foundational or dialogical *spaces* but expanding to multiple >> mixtures of various notions of reasons. >> This in no way questions dialogical spaces of reason [as thinking] but >> invites deeper exploration to how we orient to these multiple *spaces* >> [each of which offers justifications.] >> >> To describe justification as re- semblance to a board game focuses >> attention on the RULES of the game. THIS is a norm based image of >> reasoning justifying moving *points* on the board as preconceived >> grid. Situational *spaces* of reason are more creative *spaces* of >> justification that are also historically implicated but more open to >> novelty. >> The question of justification is complicated and the relation of the 4 >> types of justification far more entangled than reason [foundational or >> dialogical] overcoming the other 3 types assumes. >> >> The orientation moving away from foundational spaces of reason to >> dialogical spaces of reason is a profound transfiguration. It opens the >> space of reason to creative novelty. It is possible to continue going >> deeper to explore the profound depth of situations as *spaces* of reason. >> >> This months journal is moving across traditions and authorities and >> experiences. The concept of *situational* spaces is the Pragmatic >> tradition. Philosophical hermeneutics uses the concept *spaces of play*. >> Are concepts merely *resources* or do they exhibit other characteristics?. >> Dewey explored two notions of "have" >> A possessive "have" and a relational "have" [We have a friend]. We cannot >> possess *spaces* These *third* spaces have us and we *undergo* experiences >> WITHIN these spaces. >> >> The *space* of reasons also has this quality of being more than "resources" >> to use in our practices of justification. Reasons are more than tools of >> self management and self discipline. They are also *spaces* which have us. >> >> Reason is being re-thought and re-worked and will need multiple *settings* >> to stage this activity. The space of reasons as dialogical is one >> particular and valid and true space of justification. It is not the only >> space. >> Generating notions of *situations* and *spaces of play* and *zones* are >> speaking this multi-verse being acted out as dramas. >> >> The after school setting created a particular situation opening up a >> particular stage like *space* for generating particular types of >> justification. It was a *third* space in which the dialogical comes to the >> foreground. Ground is a fluid concept as is the concept of *concrete* >> experience. Creative worlds emerge or unfold within these *spaces* but they >> are not fundamentally grounded or permanently rule based. These worlds are >> foregrounded and backgrounded within particular situations [spaces of play] >> but they are primarily unknown on their way to be/coming known without end. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < >> j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca> wrote: >> >>> Dear XMCAers, >>> >>> The special issue of Mind, Culture, and Activity on Engaged Philosophical >>> Inquiry is up and running. >>> >>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current >>> >>> Kim Skinner, author of Acts of thinking: At school but not during school, >>> has graciously agreed to make herself available for dialogue about her >>> article on XMCA. >>> >>> If you have a moment to access and review the article, perhaps we can >>> begin discussion early or mid next week? >>> >>> Best to all, jen >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > From j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca Sat Oct 31 09:38:25 2015 From: j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca (Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 16:38:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion In-Reply-To: References: <12DDE35C-CDC4-4515-9A01-C0CD07327199@mail.ubc.ca> <56344F04.90105@mira.net> Message-ID: Thanks Ana!! :) On 2015-10-31, at 9:00 AM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote: > Jen, > This is a great issue!!! Thanks a lot! > Ana > > ___________________________________________ > Ana Marjanovic-Shane > Deputy Editor-in-Chief, > Dialogic Pedagogy Journal > Associate Professor of Education > Chestnut Hill College > Philadelphia, PA > e-mail: anamshane@gmail.com > phone: +(267) 334-2905 > > On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 1:17 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Looks like a stunning issue, Jen! >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> On 31/10/2015 2:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >> >>> Jennifer and Kim, >>> This months article is sure to generate conversation. >>> The 2nd paragraph on page 358 caught my attention. >>> "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for their >>> claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority and >>> reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on reasoning >>> increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue transformed through >>> group members practising in dialogue with each other." >>> >>> The question this generates concerns the notion of *space* of reasons. I >>> hear a transfiguration from *foundational rule based* space TO *dialogical >>> space* OF reasons. >>> >>> However are there other possible *spaces* of reason beyond either >>> foundational or dialogical *spaces* of reason. For example *situational >>> spaces* or *creative spaces* OF reason. >>> Using a dramatical metaphor or table metaphor could the dialogical *space >>> of reasons* be a particular type of situation as answer to foundational >>> rule based reason, but the deeper truth is that we are setting the table >>> for multiple fluid "spaces* of reasoning. To justify claims may be deeply >>> implicated WITHIN plural notions of *spaces*. >>> Not either foundational or dialogical *spaces* but expanding to multiple >>> mixtures of various notions of reasons. >>> This in no way questions dialogical spaces of reason [as thinking] but >>> invites deeper exploration to how we orient to these multiple *spaces* >>> [each of which offers justifications.] >>> >>> To describe justification as re- semblance to a board game focuses >>> attention on the RULES of the game. THIS is a norm based image of >>> reasoning justifying moving *points* on the board as preconceived >>> grid. Situational *spaces* of reason are more creative *spaces* of >>> justification that are also historically implicated but more open to >>> novelty. >>> The question of justification is complicated and the relation of the 4 >>> types of justification far more entangled than reason [foundational or >>> dialogical] overcoming the other 3 types assumes. >>> >>> The orientation moving away from foundational spaces of reason to >>> dialogical spaces of reason is a profound transfiguration. It opens the >>> space of reason to creative novelty. It is possible to continue going >>> deeper to explore the profound depth of situations as *spaces* of reason. >>> >>> This months journal is moving across traditions and authorities and >>> experiences. The concept of *situational* spaces is the Pragmatic >>> tradition. Philosophical hermeneutics uses the concept *spaces of play*. >>> Are concepts merely *resources* or do they exhibit other characteristics?. >>> Dewey explored two notions of "have" >>> A possessive "have" and a relational "have" [We have a friend]. We cannot >>> possess *spaces* These *third* spaces have us and we *undergo* experiences >>> WITHIN these spaces. >>> >>> The *space* of reasons also has this quality of being more than >>> "resources" >>> to use in our practices of justification. Reasons are more than tools of >>> self management and self discipline. They are also *spaces* which have us. >>> >>> Reason is being re-thought and re-worked and will need multiple *settings* >>> to stage this activity. The space of reasons as dialogical is one >>> particular and valid and true space of justification. It is not the only >>> space. >>> Generating notions of *situations* and *spaces of play* and *zones* are >>> speaking this multi-verse being acted out as dramas. >>> >>> The after school setting created a particular situation opening up a >>> particular stage like *space* for generating particular types of >>> justification. It was a *third* space in which the dialogical comes to the >>> foreground. Ground is a fluid concept as is the concept of *concrete* >>> experience. Creative worlds emerge or unfold within these *spaces* but >>> they >>> are not fundamentally grounded or permanently rule based. These worlds are >>> foregrounded and backgrounded within particular situations [spaces of >>> play] >>> but they are primarily unknown on their way to be/coming known without >>> end. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < >>> j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca> wrote: >>> >>> Dear XMCAers, >>>> >>>> The special issue of Mind, Culture, and Activity on Engaged Philosophical >>>> Inquiry is up and running. >>>> >>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current >>>> >>>> Kim Skinner, author of Acts of thinking: At school but not during school, >>>> has graciously agreed to make herself available for dialogue about her >>>> article on XMCA. >>>> >>>> If you have a moment to access and review the article, perhaps we can >>>> begin discussion early or mid next week? >>>> >>>> Best to all, jen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> From goncu@uic.edu Sat Oct 31 10:32:15 2015 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 12:32:15 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Message-ID: <6ce840cbf660664483f1af5cd46f9f5d.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> I join Ana and Andy, in thanking you, Jen and all, for your contributions. The titles look great and I am looking forward to the discussions. All the best, ag ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion From: "Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer" Date: Sat, October 31, 2015 11:36 am To: ablunden@mira.net "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Cc: "W. Douglas Baker" "Negar Amini" "Wendy Turgeon" "Hendricks, Christina" "Weber, Barbara" "Judith Green" "M. Dobber" "M. van der Veen" "Daniel Anderson" "H.J.M. van Oers" "Susan Gardner" "Peter Costello" "Natalie Fletcher" "Claire Alkouatli" "Kym Maclaren" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for this, Andy, and thanks go to the lead editor Barbara Weber on this issue as well! For folks who would like to know more about it, the editorial is also available for free. There are 6 articles and 6 commentaries?we were working toward a more dialogic feel?that move across and between philosophy, psychology, and education. In addition, we were able to include a book review on Jan Derry's fascinating book, Vygotsky, philosophy and education. Our intention was to look at intersections of philosophy, psychology, and education and we were very fortunate to locate authors with both similar intentions and outstanding research to contribute. The congratulations go to them: Wendy Turgeon Christina Hendricks Eva Marsal Chiel van der Veen, Claudia van Kruistum, & Sarah Michaels Marjolein Dobber & Bert van Oers Claire Alkouatli, Negar Amini, and Jen Kim Skinner Doug Baker & Judith Green Kym Maclaren Peter Costello Susan Gardner & Daniel Anderson Natalie Fletcher Arthur Wolf Thanks to everyone! Now, on to discussions of Kim Skinner's article!! Best - jen On 2015-10-30, at 10:17 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Looks like a stunning issue, Jen! > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 31/10/2015 2:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >> Jennifer and Kim, >> This months article is sure to generate conversation. >> The 2nd paragraph on page 358 caught my attention. >> "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for their >> claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority and >> reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on reasoning >> increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue transformed through >> group members practising in dialogue with each other." >> >> The question this generates concerns the notion of *space* of reasons. I >> hear a transfiguration from *foundational rule based* space TO *dialogical >> space* OF reasons. >> >> However are there other possible *spaces* of reason beyond either >> foundational or dialogical *spaces* of reason. For example *situational >> spaces* or *creative spaces* OF reason. >> Using a dramatical metaphor or table metaphor could the dialogical *space >> of reasons* be a particular type of situation as answer to foundational >> rule based reason, but the deeper truth is that we are setting the table >> for multiple fluid "spaces* of reasoning. To justify claims may be deeply >> implicated WITHIN plural notions of *spaces*. >> Not either foundational or dialogical *spaces* but expanding to multiple >> mixtures of various notions of reasons. >> This in no way questions dialogical spaces of reason [as thinking] but >> invites deeper exploration to how we orient to these multiple *spaces* >> [each of which offers justifications.] >> >> To describe justification as re- semblance to a board game focuses >> attention on the RULES of the game. THIS is a norm based image of >> reasoning justifying moving *points* on the board as preconceived >> grid. Situational *spaces* of reason are more creative *spaces* of >> justification that are also historically implicated but more open to >> novelty. >> The question of justification is complicated and the relation of the 4 >> types of justification far more entangled than reason [foundational or >> dialogical] overcoming the other 3 types assumes. >> >> The orientation moving away from foundational spaces of reason to >> dialogical spaces of reason is a profound transfiguration. It opens the >> space of reason to creative novelty. It is possible to continue going >> deeper to explore the profound depth of situations as *spaces* of reason. >> >> This months journal is moving across traditions and authorities and >> experiences. The concept of *situational* spaces is the Pragmatic >> tradition. Philosophical hermeneutics uses the concept *spaces of play*. >> Are concepts merely *resources* or do they exhibit other characteristics?. >> Dewey explored two notions of "have" >> A possessive "have" and a relational "have" [We have a friend]. We cannot >> possess *spaces* These *third* spaces have us and we *undergo* experiences >> WITHIN these spaces. >> >> The *space* of reasons also has this quality of being more than "resources" >> to use in our practices of justification. Reasons are more than tools of >> self management and self discipline. They are also *spaces* which have us. >> >> Reason is being re-thought and re-worked and will need multiple *settings* >> to stage this activity. The space of reasons as dialogical is one >> particular and valid and true space of justification. It is not the only >> space. >> Generating notions of *situations* and *spaces of play* and *zones* are >> speaking this multi-verse being acted out as dramas. >> >> The after school setting created a particular situation opening up a >> particular stage like *space* for generating particular types of >> justification. It was a *third* space in which the dialogical comes to the >> foreground. Ground is a fluid concept as is the concept of *concrete* >> experience. Creative worlds emerge or unfold within these *spaces* but they >> are not fundamentally grounded or permanently rule based. These worlds are >> foregrounded and backgrounded within particular situations [spaces of play] >> but they are primarily unknown on their way to be/coming known without end. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < >> j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca> wrote: >> >>> Dear XMCAers, >>> >>> The special issue of Mind, Culture, and Activity on Engaged Philosophical >>> Inquiry is up and running. >>> >>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current >>> >>> Kim Skinner, author of Acts of thinking: At school but not during school, >>> has graciously agreed to make herself available for dialogue about her >>> article on XMCA. >>> >>> If you have a moment to access and review the article, perhaps we can >>> begin discussion early or mid next week? >>> >>> Best to all, jen >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > Artin Goncu, Ph.D http://www.artingoncu.com/ Professor Emeritus, University of Illinois at Chicago College of Education M/C 147 1040 W. Harrison St. Chicago, IL 60607