[Xmca-l] Re: CoExperiencing as a Philosophy of Practice.

[Huw Lloyd]

>From what I can discern, the convergence of units here make for an
interesting problem.  It seems it would be something like "the
consciousness of goal formation".

Best,
Huw

On 7 November 2015 at 02:04, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> and I think there is a dire need for such a convergence as well.
> One of the contributing factors to the anti-science currents which can
> lead to great medical, political and social problems is antipathy to one
> particular, dominant *style* of science, and I think entanglement between
> science and the arts promotes a broader feel for different styles of
> science.
> Andy
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>
> On 7/11/2015 12:15 PM, mike cole wrote:
>
>> Larry, I strongly believe that there is a convergence of humanities and
>> social/behavioral sciences going on as one thread of academic discourse
>> congenial to CHAT. A real good location for pursuing it is. The Comm dept
>> at UCSD, if we add the arts as part off the mix.
>> That's my story at least. :-)
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On Friday, November 6, 2015, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I thought I would add the last paragraph of Alex Kozulin's review of
>>> Vasiliyuk's book.
>>>
>>> By choosing the literary model of human experiencing, Vasilyuk affirms
>>> his
>>> adherence to the humanistic, rather than scientific approach to human
>>> psychology. His work can also be seen as a blueprint for the future
>>> convergence of humanistic psychology with Vygotsky’s cultural-historical
>>> theory of human development .
>>>
>>> This premonition that some  new convergence is on the horizon. The coming
>>> intersection forming a hybrid character.
>>> Do others agree that we may be moving in the direction of a *literary
>>> model*?
>>> The discussion of White's narrative approach [using Bruner's notion of
>>> scaffolding] may be an example.
>>>
>>>   Vasilyuk's key understanding as expressed in his concept of
>>> consciousness
>>> that has two essential aspects [and their relations]
>>> *stratigraphy* as layered registers of depth or height. Each *layer* is a
>>> life-world.
>>> *structure* of the smallest molecule as unit of consciousness IS a
>>> *mental
>>> image*  A mental image having the structure of the two magnetic poles and
>>> the dynamic of consciousness moving within this dynamic *image*  like the
>>> flow of plasma.  Depth of layers AND mental images interact generating
>>> consciousness.
>>>
>>> Vasilyuk's philosophy of practice as 1st order word that is originating
>>> within the liminal spaces on the boundaries OF humanistic THEORY and
>>> cultural historical THEORY of human development.
>>>
>>> Consciousness as the originating site of meaning-GENERATION forming
>>> within
>>> co-experiencing *situations*.  In other words situated consciousness as
>>> working experience.
>>>
>>> This is a fragment but does express a *tone*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:58 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com
>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Mike, the declaration that cultural mediation [in particular the symbolic
>>>> level] is a key element can put aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy
>>>> and turn to Vygotsky's own way of including this symbolic level of
>>>> coexperiencing. Listen for the implicit movement marking the felt sense
>>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>> having *fallen away* from a *source* and then finding one's way back to
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>> *source* [and in this return entering *deeper* levels.  I am referring
>>>> to
>>>> page 62 of Vasiliyuk's article "Prayer Silence, Psychotherapy".
>>>>
>>>> Vygotsky is exploring  a *deeper* layer for experiencing suffering. Not
>>>> a
>>>> hedonistic flight from suffering, not masochistic consolation, not
>>>>
>>> routine
>>>
>>>> platitudes [always a silver lining] but a spiritual sublimation of
>>>>
>>> sorrow.
>>>
>>>> Elevating and deepening into the layer of experiencing the *source* by
>>>> transforming this suffering by return to the eternal.
>>>> Vygotsky images his life as *my star* in the heavens *marked* by sorrow.
>>>> His personal life and his Jewish life *marked* by sorrow. BUT this star
>>>>
>>> is
>>>
>>>> IN THE HEAVENS.  So the meaning of suffering [the falling away from the
>>>> source] is not in fleeing from the suffering but in returning to the
>>>> *source* [the eternal, the deepest layer of consciousness] . The meaning
>>>>
>>> is
>>>
>>>> *found* in the ELEVATION of suffering, elevtion on the wing OF A PRAYER
>>>>
>>> TO
>>>
>>>> GOD. The transformation of suffering IN GOD.
>>>>
>>>> Vygotsky's metaphor is a personal particular  *image* expressing a
>>>> deeply
>>>> felt layer of experience. But within the particular unique felt image
>>>>
>>> there
>>>
>>>> is a general [not universal] plot [mytheme] that is historically
>>>> traceable developing  symbolic cultural imaginary.
>>>>
>>>> The plot can shift what is *source* [God, sublime, the *self*] and this
>>>> can be historically traced[including the work of experiencing the
>>>>
>>> authentic
>>>
>>>> true *self* in psychology].
>>>>
>>>>   Suzanne Kirschner has traced these transformations in this myth from
>>>> religious origins, transformed within the Romantic movement, and
>>>> shifting
>>>> into psychological theories today.
>>>>
>>>> The point I am offering is that Vygotsky as Vasilyuk his project was
>>>> touched by this mytheme. Peirce in his speculative musings, also was
>>>>
>>> pulled
>>>
>>>> into this mytheme.
>>>>
>>>> I am not suggesting this plot is fundamental or foundational but the
>>>> yearning for this plot to be universal envelops and embodies us into
>>>> this
>>>> particular myth and is experienced as a deeply felt *truth*. It is only
>>>>
>>> one
>>>
>>>> of the *key elements* but it is a significant one of the keys to the
>>>> philosophy of practice.
>>>> The shift to secular themes [such as naturalism] does not change the
>>>> underlying plot structure but does change the images that *have us*.
>>>> Vygotsky saw his *star* ELEVATED to the heavens that transforms
>>>> suffering
>>>> which is the experience existing within a symbolic truth,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 5:00 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
>>>> <javascript:;>>
>>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Larry--
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for your continuing explication of your reading of Vasiliuk.
>>>>> Putting
>>>>> aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy for a moment, I am totally
>>>>> behind
>>>>> the delaration
>>>>> that  *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT", plus
>>>>> co-experiencing as the necessary condition for that cultural mediation.
>>>>>
>>>>> mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Vasilyuk is developing the *philosophy of Practice* as a
>>>>>>
>>>>> psychotechnical
>>>
>>>> *system*.
>>>>>> He says in his historical outline of the different *basic foundations*
>>>>>>
>>>>> on
>>>>>
>>>>>> which psychology has relied [from suggestibility to *becoming aware*
>>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>
>>>> *emancipation* to reliance on learning  to reliance on experiencing to
>>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> current reliance on experiencing [as existential/humanistic] which is
>>>>>> intersecting with todays reliance on productively producing internal
>>>>>> psychological transformations oriented to enriching the meaning of
>>>>>>
>>>>> being.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Vasilyuk says the task exploring the changing reliances of psychology
>>>>>>
>>>>> as a
>>>>>
>>>>>> practice is not to describe the *factual* history of psychology and
>>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>
>>>> reliances of psychotherapy but to elicit the logic of history. In
>>>>>>
>>>>> other
>>>
>>>> words to *listen* to the evolving IMPLICIT plot that gives meaning and
>>>>>> direction to the subsequent acts of the development of psychology.
>>>>>>
>>>>> (page
>>>
>>>> 11)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One of the key elements Vasilyuk identifies is the concept of
>>>>>>
>>>>> *cultural
>>>
>>>> mediation of experiences*. He says:
>>>>>> Historically cumulative experiencings with standard situations
>>>>>>
>>>>> crystallize
>>>>>
>>>>>> in various SYMBOLIC FORMS; when a person experiences crises, his
>>>>>> consciousness might get connected to these symbolic forms, an so the
>>>>>> process of experiencing, without losing its personality-oriented
>>>>>> uniqueness, gains ADDITIONAL DEPTH AND PRODUCTIVITY. (page 18).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is this additional depth and productivity as symbolic that Vasilyuk
>>>>>>
>>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>>> generating within his evolving implicit *plot* oriented to
>>>>>>
>>>>> transforming
>>>
>>>> psychology in order to enrich the meaning of being.  This is also the
>>>>>>
>>>>> theme
>>>>>
>>>>>> Vasilyuk is relying on in his other article *Prayer, Silence, and
>>>>>> Psychotherapy*. This is the living symbol of prayer on the boundary of
>>>>>> experiencing and silence/stillness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is Vygotsky exploring the *depth* of symbolism in his own words:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ophelia's tragedy [a personification] is exactly LIKE a lyrical
>>>>>> accompaniment, that towers over the entire play, which is full of the
>>>>>> dreadful torment of INEXPRESSIBILITY, of the most profound dark,
>>>>>> mysterious, and SACRED melodies that in some incomprehensible and
>>>>>> miraculous way REVEAL AND EMBODY what is most exciting, most allusive,
>>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>> touchingly important, what is DEEPEST AND DARKEST, but what is most
>>>>>>
>>>>> tragic
>>>>>
>>>>>> that is OVERCOME and enlightened, and what IS MOST MYSTICAL in the
>>>>>>
>>>>> entire
>>>>>
>>>>>> play. Thus tragedy turns into PRAYER .... as though with an oblational
>>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>> expiatory and PRAYERFUL light, it gives religious illumination to the
>>>>>> tragedy." (page 61 of Vasilyuk's article.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vasiliuk then comments: "No matter how much the devotees of Marxist
>>>>>> materialism try to conceal Vygotsky's religiosity from themselves and
>>>>>>
>>>>> us,
>>>>>
>>>>>> it is perfectly obvious that THESE words [LP -1st order words]  could
>>>>>>
>>>>> only
>>>>>
>>>>>> have been written by a person with deep personal EXPERIENCE with
>>>>>>
>>>>> prayer."
>>>>>
>>>>>> (page 61).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To sum up, I am MARKING [for orientation purposes]  the concept of
>>>>>> *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT of
>>>>>>
>>>>> coexperiencing
>>>>>
>>>>>> psychotherapy AS philosophy of practice. I believe that the same
>>>>>>
>>>>> *symbolic
>>>>>
>>>>>> gravity* can be expressed through changing images. The plot of
>>>>>>
>>>>> "falling
>>>
>>>> away from* and *returning to* can be expressed in multiple symbols
>>>>>>
>>>>> such
>>>
>>>> as turning away from God, turning away from the natural sublime,
>>>>>>
>>>>> turning
>>>
>>>> away from one's true authentic self, These images are expressing
>>>>>>
>>>>> different
>>>>>
>>>>>> *reliances* but are sharing the same symbolic plot as the cultural
>>>>>> mediation of experiencing. The IMPLICIT deepening of coexperience that
>>>>>>
>>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>>> now emerging in Russia since the 1980's that Vasilyuk is plotting may
>>>>>>
>>>>> be
>>>
>>>> implicitly enveloped in this same mytheme of falling away from *the
>>>>>>
>>>>> source*
>>>>>
>>>>>> and then the return to this *source.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The book *The Religious and Romantic Roots of Psychoanalysis* by
>>>>>>
>>>>> Suzanne
>>>
>>>> Kirschner has plotted this particular myth flowing through Western
>>>>>>
>>>>> ways
>>>
>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>>> experiencing the meaning of being. She is tracing the roots of the
>>>>>> emergence of Freudian psychoanalysis but it is the more general
>>>>>>
>>>>> philosophy
>>>>>
>>>>>> of practice as including this KEY ELEMENT of cultural mediation as
>>>>>> deepening coexperiences that I am highlighting.
>>>>>> As Vasilyuk says: the task is to LISTEN FOR *the evolving IMPLICIT
>>>>>> plot that gives meaning and direction to the subsequent acts of the
>>>>>> *development* of psychology [including the KEY symbolic element that
>>>>>> *deepens* experience beyond the personal existential.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Larry
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>