From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Sun Nov 1 07:27:55 2015 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 12:27:55 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of Louisville Message-ID: Dear colleagues, An illustration of the way administration should NOT run a university. Excuses should not be accepted, this university president should resign. http://chronicle.com/blogs/ticker/u-of-louisville-apologizes-after-president-is-photographed-in-stereotypical-mexican-costume/106211 David From j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca Sun Nov 1 08:31:18 2015 From: j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca (Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 16:31:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] In-Reply-To: <6ce840cbf660664483f1af5cd46f9f5d.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> References: <6ce840cbf660664483f1af5cd46f9f5d.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Artin!! :) On 2015-10-31, at 10:32 AM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > I join Ana and Andy, in thanking you, Jen and all, for your contributions. > The titles look great and I am looking forward to the discussions. All > the best, ag > > ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion > From: "Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer" > Date: Sat, October 31, 2015 11:36 am > To: ablunden@mira.net > "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Cc: "W. Douglas Baker" > "Negar Amini" > "Wendy Turgeon" > "Hendricks, Christina" > "Weber, Barbara" > "Judith Green" > "M. Dobber" > "M. van der Veen" > "Daniel Anderson" > "H.J.M. van Oers" > "Susan Gardner" > "Peter Costello" > "Natalie Fletcher" > "Claire Alkouatli" > "Kym Maclaren" > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for this, Andy, and thanks go to the lead editor Barbara Weber on > this issue as well! > > For folks who would like to know more about it, the editorial is also > available for free. There are 6 articles and 6 commentaries-we were > working toward a more dialogic feel-that move across and between > philosophy, psychology, and education. In addition, we were able to > include a book review on Jan Derry's fascinating book, Vygotsky, > philosophy and education. > > Our intention was to look at intersections of philosophy, psychology, and > education and we were very fortunate to locate authors with both similar > intentions and outstanding research to contribute. The congratulations go > to them: > > Wendy Turgeon > Christina Hendricks > Eva Marsal > Chiel van der Veen, Claudia van Kruistum, & Sarah Michaels > Marjolein Dobber & Bert van Oers > Claire Alkouatli, Negar Amini, and Jen > Kim Skinner > Doug Baker & Judith Green > Kym Maclaren > Peter Costello > Susan Gardner & Daniel Anderson > Natalie Fletcher > Arthur Wolf > > Thanks to everyone! > > Now, on to discussions of Kim Skinner's article!! > > Best - jen > > > > On 2015-10-30, at 10:17 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Looks like a stunning issue, Jen! >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> On 31/10/2015 2:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> Jennifer and Kim, >>> This months article is sure to generate conversation. >>> The 2nd paragraph on page 358 caught my attention. >>> "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for their >>> claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority and >>> reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on reasoning >>> increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue transformed through >>> group members practising in dialogue with each other." >>> >>> The question this generates concerns the notion of *space* of reasons. I >>> hear a transfiguration from *foundational rule based* space TO *dialogical >>> space* OF reasons. >>> >>> However are there other possible *spaces* of reason beyond either >>> foundational or dialogical *spaces* of reason. For example *situational >>> spaces* or *creative spaces* OF reason. >>> Using a dramatical metaphor or table metaphor could the dialogical *space >>> of reasons* be a particular type of situation as answer to foundational >>> rule based reason, but the deeper truth is that we are setting the table >>> for multiple fluid "spaces* of reasoning. To justify claims may be deeply >>> implicated WITHIN plural notions of *spaces*. >>> Not either foundational or dialogical *spaces* but expanding to multiple >>> mixtures of various notions of reasons. >>> This in no way questions dialogical spaces of reason [as thinking] but >>> invites deeper exploration to how we orient to these multiple *spaces* >>> [each of which offers justifications.] >>> >>> To describe justification as re- semblance to a board game focuses >>> attention on the RULES of the game. THIS is a norm based image of >>> reasoning justifying moving *points* on the board as preconceived >>> grid. Situational *spaces* of reason are more creative *spaces* of >>> justification that are also historically implicated but more open to >>> novelty. >>> The question of justification is complicated and the relation of the 4 >>> types of justification far more entangled than reason [foundational or >>> dialogical] overcoming the other 3 types assumes. >>> >>> The orientation moving away from foundational spaces of reason to >>> dialogical spaces of reason is a profound transfiguration. It opens the >>> space of reason to creative novelty. It is possible to continue going >>> deeper to explore the profound depth of situations as *spaces* of reason. >>> >>> This months journal is moving across traditions and authorities and >>> experiences. The concept of *situational* spaces is the Pragmatic >>> tradition. Philosophical hermeneutics uses the concept *spaces of play*. >>> Are concepts merely *resources* or do they exhibit other characteristics?. >>> Dewey explored two notions of "have" >>> A possessive "have" and a relational "have" [We have a friend]. We cannot >>> possess *spaces* These *third* spaces have us and we *undergo* experiences >>> WITHIN these spaces. >>> >>> The *space* of reasons also has this quality of being more than > "resources" >>> to use in our practices of justification. Reasons are more than tools of >>> self management and self discipline. They are also *spaces* which have us. >>> >>> Reason is being re-thought and re-worked and will need multiple *settings* >>> to stage this activity. The space of reasons as dialogical is one >>> particular and valid and true space of justification. It is not the only >>> space. >>> Generating notions of *situations* and *spaces of play* and *zones* are >>> speaking this multi-verse being acted out as dramas. >>> >>> The after school setting created a particular situation opening up a >>> particular stage like *space* for generating particular types of >>> justification. It was a *third* space in which the dialogical comes to the >>> foreground. Ground is a fluid concept as is the concept of *concrete* >>> experience. Creative worlds emerge or unfold within these *spaces* but > they >>> are not fundamentally grounded or permanently rule based. These worlds are >>> foregrounded and backgrounded within particular situations [spaces of > play] >>> but they are primarily unknown on their way to be/coming known without > end. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < >>> j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear XMCAers, >>>> >>>> The special issue of Mind, Culture, and Activity on Engaged Philosophical >>>> Inquiry is up and running. >>>> >>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current >>>> >>>> Kim Skinner, author of Acts of thinking: At school but not during school, >>>> has graciously agreed to make herself available for dialogue about her >>>> article on XMCA. >>>> >>>> If you have a moment to access and review the article, perhaps we can >>>> begin discussion early or mid next week? >>>> >>>> Best to all, jen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > Professor Emeritus, > University of Illinois at Chicago > College of Education M/C 147 > 1040 W. Harrison St. > Chicago, IL 60607 > > From dkirsh@lsu.edu Sun Nov 1 09:35:20 2015 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 17:35:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of Louisville In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why is this a put-down, rather than a celebration of Mexican culture? David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2015 9:28 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of Louisville Dear colleagues, An illustration of the way administration should NOT run a university. Excuses should not be accepted, this university president should resign. http://chronicle.com/blogs/ticker/u-of-louisville-apologizes-after-president-is-photographed-in-stereotypical-mexican-costume/106211 David From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Nov 1 09:51:10 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 17:51:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of Louisville In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: David K, Your question about why this is a put down is really hard to believe. But OK, think about it this way: If they were in blackface and holding watermelons, would you get it then? Annalisa From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Sun Nov 1 10:14:27 2015 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 15:14:27 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of Louisville In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On addition to what Annalisa points out, they dressed like that for a halloween party. If they would have dressed themselves as Hassidic jews or devoted muslims for, I insist, a Halloween party, that would have been antisemitic or islamophobic. So, Mexicans are scary Halloween monsters? Something to be afraid of? And certainly they don't look like they are celebrating Mexican culture, but using cartoon-like Mexican symbols as an aside of whatever they intended to be doing at that moment. Very insensitive when you have Trump treating Mexico and immigrants like a public enemy or the plague and even Latin origin candidates giving away their roots for the sake of political power. That university president should leave his post, he is dishonoring academe as a whole by remaining in his position. On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > David K, > > Your question about why this is a put down is really hard to believe. > > But OK, think about it this way: If they were in blackface and holding > watermelons, would you get it then? > > Annalisa > > > From dkirsh@lsu.edu Sun Nov 1 10:26:10 2015 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:26:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of Louisville In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, David and Annalisa. I agree with the examples of blackface, Hassidic Jews, and devout Muslims. But this is about nuance, not about open-and-shut universal principles. I live in the Southern U.S., and while aware of the politics you speak of, I'm not sure it translates into cultural vilification, per se. Perhaps that's why these university folks, who wouldn't think of dressing in blackface or as Hassidic Jews or devout Muslims thought it would be okay to dress in folkloric Mexican costumes. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2015 12:14 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of Louisville On addition to what Annalisa points out, they dressed like that for a halloween party. If they would have dressed themselves as Hassidic jews or devoted muslims for, I insist, a Halloween party, that would have been antisemitic or islamophobic. So, Mexicans are scary Halloween monsters? Something to be afraid of? And certainly they don't look like they are celebrating Mexican culture, but using cartoon-like Mexican symbols as an aside of whatever they intended to be doing at that moment. Very insensitive when you have Trump treating Mexico and immigrants like a public enemy or the plague and even Latin origin candidates giving away their roots for the sake of political power. That university president should leave his post, he is dishonoring academe as a whole by remaining in his position. On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > David K, > > Your question about why this is a put down is really hard to believe. > > But OK, think about it this way: If they were in blackface and holding > watermelons, would you get it then? > > Annalisa > > > From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Sun Nov 1 10:55:13 2015 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 15:55:13 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of Louisville In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear David, I don't see an issue of nuance here. What I see is that they just are obviously insensitive to Mexican culture. Cultural vilification in this case originates from the lack of attention on behalf of university authorities to the symbolic nature of cultural symbols and their evident degradation to the status of pretended funny costumes for a party totally unrelated to the culture associated to those costumes. I could grant some empathy to uneducated college first year students, not to a president that is responsible of their education. David On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:26 PM, David H Kirshner wrote: > Thanks, David and Annalisa. > > I agree with the examples of blackface, Hassidic Jews, and devout Muslims. > But this is about nuance, not about open-and-shut universal principles. > I live in the Southern U.S., and while aware of the politics you speak of, > I'm not sure it translates into cultural vilification, per se. > Perhaps that's why these university folks, who wouldn't think of dressing > in blackface or as Hassidic Jews or devout Muslims thought it would be okay > to dress in folkloric Mexican costumes. > > David > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss > Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2015 12:14 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of > Louisville > > On addition to what Annalisa points out, they dressed like that for a > halloween party. If they would have dressed themselves as Hassidic jews or > devoted muslims for, I insist, a Halloween party, that would have been > antisemitic or islamophobic. So, Mexicans are scary Halloween monsters? > Something to be afraid of? And certainly they don't look like they are > celebrating Mexican culture, but using cartoon-like Mexican symbols as an > aside of whatever they intended to be doing at that moment. > Very insensitive when you have Trump treating Mexico and immigrants like a > public enemy or the plague and even Latin origin candidates giving away > their roots for the sake of political power. > That university president should leave his post, he is dishonoring academe > as a whole by remaining in his position. > > > > On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > > > David K, > > > > Your question about why this is a put down is really hard to believe. > > > > But OK, think about it this way: If they were in blackface and holding > > watermelons, would you get it then? > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > From dkirsh@lsu.edu Sun Nov 1 12:05:45 2015 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:05:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of Louisville In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, What we see is obvious invocation of symbols of Mexican culture. Insensitivity resides in the nuance of cultural resonances, not in the invocation of symbols, per se, of course. In this case, the costuming was with respect to folkloric traditions of Mexico, not to active garb of a religious or ethnic community. What you and Annalisa are reflecting in your blanket condemnation of this university president is a tradition of cultural interpretation of our own community, not a set of moral principles. We do better as an academic community when we scrutinize our own cultural practices, and not just those of others. When I asked "Why is this a put-down, rather than a celebration of Mexican culture" it's because I can easily imagine regimes of interpretation where that would be the case. My cultural antennae did not signal alarm at the picture, as they would if the image were of people in blackface or in Hassidic or Muslim garb, or if the Mexican depiction had been degenerate, with dirty and torn folkloric costuming. I wonder if we have any of Mexican scholars on our list who could share their experience of the image. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2015 12:55 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of Louisville Dear David, I don't see an issue of nuance here. What I see is that they just are obviously insensitive to Mexican culture. Cultural vilification in this case originates from the lack of attention on behalf of university authorities to the symbolic nature of cultural symbols and their evident degradation to the status of pretended funny costumes for a party totally unrelated to the culture associated to those costumes. I could grant some empathy to uneducated college first year students, not to a president that is responsible of their education. David On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:26 PM, David H Kirshner wrote: > Thanks, David and Annalisa. > > I agree with the examples of blackface, Hassidic Jews, and devout Muslims. > But this is about nuance, not about open-and-shut universal principles. > I live in the Southern U.S., and while aware of the politics you speak > of, I'm not sure it translates into cultural vilification, per se. > Perhaps that's why these university folks, who wouldn't think of > dressing in blackface or as Hassidic Jews or devout Muslims thought it > would be okay to dress in folkloric Mexican costumes. > > David > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David > xmca-l-bounces+Preiss > Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2015 12:14 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. > of Louisville > > On addition to what Annalisa points out, they dressed like that for a > halloween party. If they would have dressed themselves as Hassidic > jews or devoted muslims for, I insist, a Halloween party, that would > have been antisemitic or islamophobic. So, Mexicans are scary Halloween monsters? > Something to be afraid of? And certainly they don't look like they are > celebrating Mexican culture, but using cartoon-like Mexican symbols as > an aside of whatever they intended to be doing at that moment. > Very insensitive when you have Trump treating Mexico and immigrants > like a public enemy or the plague and even Latin origin candidates > giving away their roots for the sake of political power. > That university president should leave his post, he is dishonoring > academe as a whole by remaining in his position. > > > > On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > > > David K, > > > > Your question about why this is a put down is really hard to believe. > > > > But OK, think about it this way: If they were in blackface and > > holding watermelons, would you get it then? > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Sun Nov 1 12:20:13 2015 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 17:20:13 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of Louisville In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, David, the photo caused problems within the same university up to the point that they had to apologise to their own academic community, specially to those of Latino background. Even their own students found the picture problematic: http://www.louisvillecardinal.com/2015/10/what-what-what-are-you-wearing-ramsey-goes-racist/ So, there was self-scrutiny of this president action, and it was also condemnation (by his very own community). They didn't need me, as a Chilean, to tell them so. What I only added is that this president should resign his post, but that is my opinion only, of course. On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 5:05 PM, David H Kirshner wrote: > David, > What we see is obvious invocation of symbols of Mexican culture. > Insensitivity resides in the nuance of cultural resonances, not in the > invocation of symbols, per se, of course. > In this case, the costuming was with respect to folkloric traditions of > Mexico, not to active garb of a religious or ethnic community. > What you and Annalisa are reflecting in your blanket condemnation of this > university president is a tradition of cultural interpretation of our own > community, not a set of moral principles. > We do better as an academic community when we scrutinize our own cultural > practices, and not just those of others. > When I asked "Why is this a put-down, rather than a celebration of Mexican > culture" it's because I can easily imagine regimes of interpretation where > that would be the case. My cultural antennae did not signal alarm at the > picture, as they would if the image were of people in blackface or in > Hassidic or Muslim garb, or if the Mexican depiction had been degenerate, > with dirty and torn folkloric costuming. > I wonder if we have any of Mexican scholars on our list who could share > their experience of the image. > David > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss > Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2015 12:55 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of > Louisville > > Dear David, > I don't see an issue of nuance here. What I see is that they just are > obviously insensitive to Mexican culture. Cultural vilification in this > case originates from the lack of attention on behalf of university > authorities to the symbolic nature of cultural symbols and their evident > degradation to the status of pretended funny costumes for a party totally > unrelated to the culture associated to those costumes. I could grant some > empathy to uneducated college first year students, not to a president that > is responsible of their education. > David > > On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:26 PM, David H Kirshner wrote: > > > Thanks, David and Annalisa. > > > > I agree with the examples of blackface, Hassidic Jews, and devout > Muslims. > > But this is about nuance, not about open-and-shut universal principles. > > I live in the Southern U.S., and while aware of the politics you speak > > of, I'm not sure it translates into cultural vilification, per se. > > Perhaps that's why these university folks, who wouldn't think of > > dressing in blackface or as Hassidic Jews or devout Muslims thought it > > would be okay to dress in folkloric Mexican costumes. > > > > David > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David > > xmca-l-bounces+Preiss > > Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2015 12:14 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. > > of Louisville > > > > On addition to what Annalisa points out, they dressed like that for a > > halloween party. If they would have dressed themselves as Hassidic > > jews or devoted muslims for, I insist, a Halloween party, that would > > have been antisemitic or islamophobic. So, Mexicans are scary Halloween > monsters? > > Something to be afraid of? And certainly they don't look like they are > > celebrating Mexican culture, but using cartoon-like Mexican symbols as > > an aside of whatever they intended to be doing at that moment. > > Very insensitive when you have Trump treating Mexico and immigrants > > like a public enemy or the plague and even Latin origin candidates > > giving away their roots for the sake of political power. > > That university president should leave his post, he is dishonoring > > academe as a whole by remaining in his position. > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > > > > > > David K, > > > > > > Your question about why this is a put down is really hard to believe. > > > > > > But OK, think about it this way: If they were in blackface and > > > holding watermelons, would you get it then? > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Nov 1 12:50:31 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:50:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of Louisville In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <69D75D2C-C2FC-4900-B1FC-FC81CD47577E@uniandes.edu.co> I happened to have lunch on Friday at a shopping mall here in Bogot?. I quickly found myself surrounded by ghouls and vampires (watching a vampire eat a hamburger, fake blood dripping down her chin, I found rather fascinating!), but I was surprised by a number of people wearing sombreros. Then the sound of a mariachi band floated up from below. Then a woman passed by made up as La Catrina. My conclusion was that association with the Mexican Day of the Dead has become an alternative to the commercial Halloween that is now common not just in the USA but many other countries. But perhaps I was wrong. I took some photos... Martin [cid:7882FC03-8EF5-4B7F-9056-55964FF4CFB2] [cid:300E2D0E-A023-4F6A-AE3F-BEF36D54A9A2] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PHOTO_20151030_130255.jpg Type: image/jpg Size: 834175 bytes Desc: PHOTO_20151030_130255.jpg Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151101/f4ea4cb3/attachment-0002.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PHOTO_20151030_125510.jpg Type: image/jpg Size: 704300 bytes Desc: PHOTO_20151030_125510.jpg Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151101/f4ea4cb3/attachment-0003.jpg From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Nov 1 13:53:55 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 14:53:55 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of Louisville In-Reply-To: <69D75D2C-C2FC-4900-B1FC-FC81CD47577E@uniandes.edu.co> References: <69D75D2C-C2FC-4900-B1FC-FC81CD47577E@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Martin and all, Here in Albuquerque El Dia de los Muertos has a strong presence during Halloween. Had the president and each of his staff at the Univerisity of Louisville put on face paint depicting a skull, I am guessing they would have been construed as commemorating the Day of the Dead, rather than poking at a stereotype of the lazy Mexican. The image below is used by Gustavo Arellano in his weekly syndicated column Ask a Mexican in lampooning stereotypes of Mexicans. He is not above lampooning Mexicans. Nobody?s perfect. I am reminded of who can appropriately use the N word (and where and when) without risking push back. It?s about face, power and credibility. I was living in Oakland California, where the Black Panther Party was founded in the late 60s. ?Pig? was coined by the party to identify cops. The cops appropriated the term in talking of themselves, thereby taking some of the sting out of being called pigs. Perhaps some of you remember Tom Wolfe?s book, Radical Chic and Maumauing The Flak Catchers, which the current brouhaha at the University of Louisville reminds me of. Henry On Nov 1, 2015, at 1:50 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > I happened to have lunch on Friday at a shopping mall here in Bogot?. I quickly found myself surrounded by ghouls and vampires (watching a vampire eat a hamburger, fake blood dripping down her chin, I found rather fascinating!), but I was surprised by a number of people wearing sombreros. Then the sound of a mariachi band floated up from below. Then a woman passed by made up as La Catrina. My conclusion was that association with the Mexican Day of the Dead has become an alternative to the commercial Halloween that is now common not just in the USA but many other countries. But perhaps I was wrong. > > I took some photos... > > Martin > > [cid:7882FC03-8EF5-4B7F-9056-55964FF4CFB2] > > [cid:300E2D0E-A023-4F6A-AE3F-BEF36D54A9A2] From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Nov 1 14:43:10 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 22:43:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of Louisville In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Hi again, For me the problem is that this isn't Mexican cultural dress. In fact if we want to go totally deconstructionist, why are they all wearing the same kinds of hats, the same kinds of mustaches, the same kinds of dress? These are the signs of the stereotype of the Lazy Mexican. Mexicans are anything but lazy. If you look around in the fields where many harvest our food, they don't look anything like lazy. I'm not sure what the message is to have all these administrators dress up as Lazy Mexicans is supposed to mean. Even if it is for Halloween, which is a pagan holiday originally called Samhain? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samhain It wasn't until Christian conquest of the pagans that it become All Saints Day, or Dia de Los Muertos. Which now has been appropriated into Halloween with trick or treats and horror. Given the material aspect of capitalism, it sort of makes sense that the spirits are transformed into dead bodies and zombies? and now Lazy Mexicans? Oh well. Kind regards, Annalsia From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Nov 1 15:08:55 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 23:08:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of Louisville In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <19541D56-1881-42EA-B254-CB4FF3C52683@uniandes.edu.co> Yes, talking of stereotypes it is unfortunate that many people associate Mexicans with agricultural workers. I lived for a year in Mexico City, and didn't meet a single agricultural worker! Martin On Nov 1, 2015, at 5:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi again, > > For me the problem is that this isn't Mexican cultural dress. In fact if we want to go totally deconstructionist, why are they all wearing the same kinds of hats, the same kinds of mustaches, the same kinds of dress? > > These are the signs of the stereotype of the Lazy Mexican. Mexicans are anything but lazy. If you look around in the fields where many harvest our food, they don't look anything like lazy. > > I'm not sure what the message is to have all these administrators dress up as Lazy Mexicans is supposed to mean. Even if it is for Halloween, which is a pagan holiday originally called Samhain? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samhain > > It wasn't until Christian conquest of the pagans that it become All Saints Day, or Dia de Los Muertos. > > Which now has been appropriated into Halloween with trick or treats and horror. Given the material aspect of capitalism, it sort of makes sense that the spirits are transformed into dead bodies and zombies? and now Lazy Mexicans? > > Oh well. > > Kind regards, > > Annalsia From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Nov 1 15:25:45 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 23:25:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of Louisville In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: Martin, What you say is very true. Unfortunately if we are going to take the construction of the Lazy Mexican at face value, and most of our contact in the US is with agricultural workers, or workers in restaurants, or nannies, and housekeepers, who don't look anything like this... then where does this construct come from? None of these people are lazy! They work! and when they work, they work hard. Of course many Mexican Americans are even educated and professionally successful. How about that. So are they the lazy ones? The takeaway is Mexicans are not lazy. So where does the construct come from, and why is that construct used as a signifier of "Mexican cultural dress"? I don't recall German immigrants being cast as lazy. Nor Vietnamese or Chinese immigrants. It really makes no sense. Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Nov 1 15:48:30 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 15:48:30 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] 4 experiencing fans Message-ID: Those interested in the later work of Feodor Vasiliuk on perezhivanie/experiencing, here is new material free. http://www.tandfonline.com/author/Vasilyuk%2C+F mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Sun Nov 1 15:56:53 2015 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:56:53 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Stereotyping Latin America and Mexico at the U. of Louisville In-Reply-To: <19541D56-1881-42EA-B254-CB4FF3C52683@uniandes.edu.co> References: <19541D56-1881-42EA-B254-CB4FF3C52683@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Well, I am sorry to say that el d?a de los muertos is a very different tradition than halloween. Just for starters: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-cubias/dia-de-los-muertos-is-not_b_6056734.html And the attire of el dia de los muertos does not involve mostly sombreros and moustaches. http://education.nationalgeographic.com/media/dia-de-los-muertos/ http://intelligenttravel.nationalgeographic.com/2014/10/28/video-day-of-the-dead-in-oaxaca/ Not surprised, Martin, that you saw that strange mixture in a mall in Bogota. I would not be surprised to see the same in a Santiago mall. (And aren't malls a reflection of North American influence in Latin America?). Here, our own day of the death is hugely different than halloween and now halloween is very popular (mostly about children picking candies from neighbours). Yet, a mall is not a university and does not intend to educate and foster understanding of cultural differences. Quite the contrary, the mall intends to eliminate those differences to promote consumerism. So, I would not use a mall as a standard to judge the way a university president should act. Let me say that I am not myself a radical, as many may have inferred by my years long email history in this list. I just think that USA-Latin American understanding is one of the main challenges we face in the 21st century for obvious reasons and I am tired of seeing how the incredible cultural diversity and multiple contributions that Latin America make are reduced to stereotypes. At the end of the day, it is not Latin America the one that loses, anyway. On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 8:08 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Yes, talking of stereotypes it is unfortunate that many people associate > Mexicans with agricultural workers. I lived for a year in Mexico City, and > didn't meet a single agricultural worker! > > Martin > > On Nov 1, 2015, at 5:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > > > Hi again, > > > > For me the problem is that this isn't Mexican cultural dress. In fact if > we want to go totally deconstructionist, why are they all wearing the same > kinds of hats, the same kinds of mustaches, the same kinds of dress? > > > > These are the signs of the stereotype of the Lazy Mexican. Mexicans are > anything but lazy. If you look around in the fields where many harvest our > food, they don't look anything like lazy. > > > > I'm not sure what the message is to have all these administrators dress > up as Lazy Mexicans is supposed to mean. Even if it is for Halloween, which > is a pagan holiday originally called Samhain? > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samhain > > > > It wasn't until Christian conquest of the pagans that it become All > Saints Day, or Dia de Los Muertos. > > > > Which now has been appropriated into Halloween with trick or treats and > horror. Given the material aspect of capitalism, it sort of makes sense > that the spirits are transformed into dead bodies and zombies? and now Lazy > Mexicans? > > > > Oh well. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalsia > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Nov 1 16:24:07 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 00:24:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mike, Thanks so much for these links! Both articles look really interesting. Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Nov 1 17:13:07 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 17:13:07 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The next issue is looking very interesting too, Annalisa. I do not know if they will release it or not Mike On Sunday, November 1, 2015, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Mike, > > Thanks so much for these links! > > Both articles look really interesting. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From bferholt@gmail.com Sun Nov 1 18:14:34 2015 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 21:14:34 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: THANKS! Beth On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 6:48 PM, mike cole wrote: > Those interested in the later work of Feodor Vasiliuk on > perezhivanie/experiencing, here is new material free. > > http://www.tandfonline.com/author/Vasilyuk%2C+F > > mike > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From ablunden@mira.net Sun Nov 1 23:01:28 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 18:01:28 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> The material in the second, longer article, would be of very great interest for any xmca-ers who are counsellor or psychotherapists. It is, amongst other things, a pretty comprehensive manual for psychotherapy. It is also particularly interesting in its effort to place Soviet psychology in the context of the history of psychology worldwide and the various traditions current today (including the Christian tradition). And of course lots about perezhivanie, a.k.a. experiencing. There are some efforts to systematise that I am not so sure about, in particular a complex concept of "mental image" (or representation). The systematic material is very condensed and hard to follow. But it is very challenging and stimulating. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 2/11/2015 1:14 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > THANKS! Beth > > On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 6:48 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Those interested in the later work of Feodor Vasiliuk on >> perezhivanie/experiencing, here is new material free. >> >> http://www.tandfonline.com/author/Vasilyuk%2C+F >> >> mike >> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> > > From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Nov 1 23:50:49 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 07:50:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> References: , <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> Message-ID: Unfortunately, Andy, that 2nd article is locked down. Kind regards, Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Mon Nov 2 02:17:42 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 21:17:42 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: References: , <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> Message-ID: <56373846.8070500@mira.net> The article I am referring to is at http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10610405.2015.1064721 People might be interested in the concept of "psychotherapeutic reliance" for example. The reliance is the process within the patient which the therapist relies upon to resolve the problem, thus separating the technique used by the therapist from the process within the subject which is being relied upon in designing the technique. In pre-Freudian days when the method was hypnosis, the reliance is *suggestibility*. FOr Freudian psychotherapy, the reliance is *awareness*. For Psychodrama, the reliance is *spontaneity*. For Behavioural Therapy, the reliance is *learning*. For Vasilyuk's "Co-experiencing" therapy the reliance is *perezhivanie*, and he goes on to describe the main characteristics of perezhivanie. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 2/11/2015 6:50 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Unfortunately, Andy, that 2nd article is locked down. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From rguzzo@mpc.com.br Mon Nov 2 02:57:14 2015 From: rguzzo@mpc.com.br (Raquel Guzzo) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 08:57:14 -0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: <56373846.8070500@mira.net> References: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> <56373846.8070500@mira.net> Message-ID: Great ! Thank you > On 2 Nov 2015, at 08:17, Andy Blunden wrote: > > The article I am referring to is at > http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10610405.2015.1064721 > People might be interested in the concept of "psychotherapeutic reliance" for example. > The reliance is the process within the patient which the therapist relies upon to resolve the problem, thus separating the technique used by the therapist from the process within the subject which is being relied upon in designing the technique. > In pre-Freudian days when the method was hypnosis, the reliance is *suggestibility*. > FOr Freudian psychotherapy, the reliance is *awareness*. > For Psychodrama, the reliance is *spontaneity*. > For Behavioural Therapy, the reliance is *learning*. > For Vasilyuk's "Co-experiencing" therapy the reliance is *perezhivanie*, and he goes on to describe the main characteristics of perezhivanie. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> On 2/11/2015 6:50 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> Unfortunately, Andy, that 2nd article is locked down. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> > From smago@uga.edu Mon Nov 2 03:19:19 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 11:19:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> References: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> Message-ID: Is Christianity such a monolith that it can be viewed as a single tradition? Vygotsky positioned it as such in the 1920s, and as a devoted Communist, it may have appeared to him that way (hard to say in such provincial societies what was and wasn't available to their vision). But surely not now, given how many Christian denominations there are and how they stand in contrast to one another. I say this as an atheist with no dog in this fight, just a resistance to overgeneralization. p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 2:01 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans The material in the second, longer article, would be of very great interest for any xmca-ers who are counsellor or psychotherapists. It is, amongst other things, a pretty comprehensive manual for psychotherapy. It is also particularly interesting in its effort to place Soviet psychology in the context of the history of psychology worldwide and the various traditions current today (including the Christian tradition). And of course lots about perezhivanie, a.k.a. experiencing. There are some efforts to systematise that I am not so sure about, in particular a complex concept of "mental image" (or representation). The systematic material is very condensed and hard to follow. But it is very challenging and stimulating. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 2/11/2015 1:14 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > THANKS! Beth > > On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 6:48 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Those interested in the later work of Feodor Vasiliuk on >> perezhivanie/experiencing, here is new material free. >> >> http://www.tandfonline.com/author/Vasilyuk%2C+F >> >> mike >> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> > > From NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au Mon Nov 2 03:20:16 2015 From: NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au (Nektarios Alexi) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 11:20:16 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: <56373846.8070500@mira.net> References: , <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> , <56373846.8070500@mira.net> Message-ID: <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> Attach is the article that is locked. I have only read the first article from the list and hoping to read the other two by tomorrow sometime. I have a sense that Vasilyuk work is a good answer against the postmodern attitude of many psychotherapists and counsellors today and especially in Australia. Is funny though that narrative therapists in Australia and especially Michael White was thinking that is applying Vygotsky's ideas in his work (i don't think he ever read his work properly). Vasilyuk I think is shocking by giving such an unexpected perspective to the word *perezhivanie*. Another shocking perspective of Vygotsky and against the postmodern attitudes of many psychotherapists today comes from the Thesis of Levykh Michael where he gives an amazing description of the word (leachnost) which the english translation is personality. Find his thesis in the following link http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176________________________________________ Best Wishes, Nektarios From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 7:49 PM To: Annalisa Aguilar; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans The article I am referring to is at http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10610405.2015.1064721 People might be interested in the concept of "psychotherapeutic reliance" for example. The reliance is the process within the patient which the therapist relies upon to resolve the problem, thus separating the technique used by the therapist from the process within the subject which is being relied upon in designing the technique. In pre-Freudian days when the method was hypnosis, the reliance is *suggestibility*. FOr Freudian psychotherapy, the reliance is *awareness*. For Psychodrama, the reliance is *spontaneity*. For Behavioural Therapy, the reliance is *learning*. For Vasilyuk's "Co-experiencing" therapy the reliance is *perezhivanie*, and he goes on to describe the main characteristics of perezhivanie. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 2/11/2015 6:50 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Unfortunately, Andy, that 2nd article is locked down. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: A historical methodological analysis of psychotherapeutic reliances.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 296499 bytes Desc: A historical methodological analysis of psychotherapeutic reliances.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151102/992ddb92/attachment.pdf From NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au Mon Nov 2 03:23:58 2015 From: NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au (Nektarios Alexi) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 11:23:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: References: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net>, Message-ID: <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA11211A3@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> Peter in the Christian orthodox tradition the sense that Orthodox Christianity is the continuation of the first Christian community and that all other denominations have simply departed from the original church(Orthodox church) is very strong. ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 8:50 PM To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans Is Christianity such a monolith that it can be viewed as a single tradition? Vygotsky positioned it as such in the 1920s, and as a devoted Communist, it may have appeared to him that way (hard to say in such provincial societies what was and wasn't available to their vision). But surely not now, given how many Christian denominations there are and how they stand in contrast to one another. I say this as an atheist with no dog in this fight, just a resistance to overgeneralization. p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 2:01 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans The material in the second, longer article, would be of very great interest for any xmca-ers who are counsellor or psychotherapists. It is, amongst other things, a pretty comprehensive manual for psychotherapy. It is also particularly interesting in its effort to place Soviet psychology in the context of the history of psychology worldwide and the various traditions current today (including the Christian tradition). And of course lots about perezhivanie, a.k.a. experiencing. There are some efforts to systematise that I am not so sure about, in particular a complex concept of "mental image" (or representation). The systematic material is very condensed and hard to follow. But it is very challenging and stimulating. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 2/11/2015 1:14 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > THANKS! Beth > > On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 6:48 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Those interested in the later work of Feodor Vasiliuk on >> perezhivanie/experiencing, here is new material free. >> >> http://www.tandfonline.com/author/Vasilyuk%2C+F >> >> mike >> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> > > From smago@uga.edu Mon Nov 2 03:48:17 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 11:48:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA11211A3@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> References: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net>, <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA11211A3@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> Message-ID: No argument here, which is why I resist the generalization. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Nektarios Alexi Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 6:24 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; ablunden@mira.net Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans Peter in the Christian orthodox tradition the sense that Orthodox Christianity is the continuation of the first Christian community and that all other denominations have simply departed from the original church(Orthodox church) is very strong. ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 8:50 PM To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans Is Christianity such a monolith that it can be viewed as a single tradition? Vygotsky positioned it as such in the 1920s, and as a devoted Communist, it may have appeared to him that way (hard to say in such provincial societies what was and wasn't available to their vision). But surely not now, given how many Christian denominations there are and how they stand in contrast to one another. I say this as an atheist with no dog in this fight, just a resistance to overgeneralization. p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 2:01 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans The material in the second, longer article, would be of very great interest for any xmca-ers who are counsellor or psychotherapists. It is, amongst other things, a pretty comprehensive manual for psychotherapy. It is also particularly interesting in its effort to place Soviet psychology in the context of the history of psychology worldwide and the various traditions current today (including the Christian tradition). And of course lots about perezhivanie, a.k.a. experiencing. There are some efforts to systematise that I am not so sure about, in particular a complex concept of "mental image" (or representation). The systematic material is very condensed and hard to follow. But it is very challenging and stimulating. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 2/11/2015 1:14 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > THANKS! Beth > > On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 6:48 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Those interested in the later work of Feodor Vasiliuk on >> perezhivanie/experiencing, here is new material free. >> >> http://www.tandfonline.com/author/Vasilyuk%2C+F >> >> mike >> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> > > From ablunden@mira.net Mon Nov 2 04:04:36 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 23:04:36 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA11211A3@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> References: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net>, <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA11211A3@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> Message-ID: <56375154.2000203@mira.net> and my summary of Vasilyuk was of course very abbreviated. The point for him is specifically continuity with the Russian Orthodox Church, not "Christianity" in general. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 2/11/2015 10:23 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: > Peter in the Christian orthodox tradition the sense that Orthodox Christianity is the continuation of the first Christian community and that all other denominations have simply departed from the original church(Orthodox church) is very strong. > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] > Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 8:50 PM > To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > Is Christianity such a monolith that it can be viewed as a single tradition? Vygotsky positioned it as such in the 1920s, and as a devoted Communist, it may have appeared to him that way (hard to say in such provincial societies what was and wasn't available to their vision). But surely not now, given how many Christian denominations there are and how they stand in contrast to one another. > > I say this as an atheist with no dog in this fight, just a resistance to overgeneralization. p > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 2:01 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > The material in the second, longer article, would be of very great interest for any xmca-ers who are counsellor or psychotherapists. It is, amongst other things, a pretty comprehensive manual for psychotherapy. It is also particularly interesting in its effort to place Soviet psychology in the context of the history of psychology worldwide and the various traditions current today (including the Christian tradition). And of course lots about perezhivanie, a.k.a. experiencing. > There are some efforts to systematise that I am not so sure about, in particular a complex concept of "mental image" (or representation). The systematic material is very condensed and hard to follow. But it is very challenging and stimulating. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 2/11/2015 1:14 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote: >> THANKS! Beth >> >> On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 6:48 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Those interested in the later work of Feodor Vasiliuk on >>> perezhivanie/experiencing, here is new material free. >>> >>> http://www.tandfonline.com/author/Vasilyuk%2C+F >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>> >> > > > From ablunden@mira.net Mon Nov 2 04:14:35 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 23:14:35 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> References: , <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> , <56373846.8070500@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> Message-ID: <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> The long trail of spaces at the end of the URL may cause people to get a bad link, Alex. Try http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176 Why do you say Vasilyuk gives such a *shocking* perspective on perezhivanie, Alex? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 2/11/2015 10:20 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: > Attach is the article that is locked. I have only read the first article from the list and hoping to read the other two by tomorrow sometime. I have a sense that Vasilyuk work is a good answer against the postmodern attitude of many psychotherapists and counsellors today and especially in Australia. Is funny though that narrative therapists in Australia and especially Michael White was thinking that is applying Vygotsky's ideas in his work (i don't think he ever read his work properly). Vasilyuk I think is shocking by giving such an unexpected perspective to the word *perezhivanie*. Another shocking perspective of Vygotsky and against the postmodern attitudes of many psychotherapists today comes from the Thesis of Levykh Michael where he gives an amazing description of the word (leachnost) which the english translation is personality. > > Find his thesis in the following link http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176________________________________________ > > Best Wishes, > Nektarios > > > From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 7:49 PM > To: Annalisa Aguilar; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > The article I am referring to is at > http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10610405.2015.1064721 > People might be interested in the concept of > "psychotherapeutic reliance" for example. > The reliance is the process within the patient which the > therapist relies upon to resolve the problem, thus > separating the technique used by the therapist from the > process within the subject which is being relied upon in > designing the technique. > In pre-Freudian days when the method was hypnosis, the > reliance is *suggestibility*. > FOr Freudian psychotherapy, the reliance is *awareness*. > For Psychodrama, the reliance is *spontaneity*. > For Behavioural Therapy, the reliance is *learning*. > For Vasilyuk's "Co-experiencing" therapy the reliance is > *perezhivanie*, and he goes on to describe the main > characteristics of perezhivanie. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 2/11/2015 6:50 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> Unfortunately, Andy, that 2nd article is locked down. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> From laure.kloetzer@gmail.com Mon Nov 2 04:50:49 2015 From: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com (Laure Kloetzer) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 13:50:49 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> References: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> <56373846.8070500@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Would some of you that have a translation in English or French of Vygotsky's seminal work on *The Tragedy of Hamlet* kindly share it on this list ? I am sorry I can not find any. Thank you so much for your support, Best LK 2015-11-02 13:14 GMT+01:00 Andy Blunden : > The long trail of spaces at the end of the URL may cause people to get a > bad link, Alex. > Try http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176 > > Why do you say Vasilyuk gives such a *shocking* perspective on > perezhivanie, Alex? > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 2/11/2015 10:20 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: > >> Attach is the article that is locked. I have only read the first article >> from the list and hoping to read the other two by tomorrow sometime. I have >> a sense that Vasilyuk work is a good answer against the postmodern attitude >> of many psychotherapists and counsellors today and especially in Australia. >> Is funny though that narrative therapists in Australia and especially >> Michael White was thinking that is applying Vygotsky's ideas in his work >> (i don't think he ever read his work properly). Vasilyuk I think is >> shocking by giving such an unexpected perspective to the word >> *perezhivanie*. Another shocking perspective of Vygotsky and against the >> postmodern attitudes of many psychotherapists today comes from the Thesis >> of Levykh Michael where he gives an amazing description of the word >> (leachnost) which the english translation is personality. >> >> Find his thesis in the following link >> http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176________________________________________ >> >> Best Wishes, >> Nektarios >> >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf >> of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] >> Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 7:49 PM >> To: Annalisa Aguilar; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans >> >> The article I am referring to is at >> http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10610405.2015.1064721 >> People might be interested in the concept of >> "psychotherapeutic reliance" for example. >> The reliance is the process within the patient which the >> therapist relies upon to resolve the problem, thus >> separating the technique used by the therapist from the >> process within the subject which is being relied upon in >> designing the technique. >> In pre-Freudian days when the method was hypnosis, the >> reliance is *suggestibility*. >> FOr Freudian psychotherapy, the reliance is *awareness*. >> For Psychodrama, the reliance is *spontaneity*. >> For Behavioural Therapy, the reliance is *learning*. >> For Vasilyuk's "Co-experiencing" therapy the reliance is >> *perezhivanie*, and he goes on to describe the main >> characteristics of perezhivanie. >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> On 2/11/2015 6:50 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >>> Unfortunately, Andy, that 2nd article is locked down. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> > From ablunden@mira.net Mon Nov 2 05:07:44 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 00:07:44 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: References: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> <56373846.8070500@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> Message-ID: <56376020.3030207@mira.net> https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1925/art8.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 2/11/2015 11:50 PM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > Would some of you that have a translation in English or > French of Vygotsky's seminal work on /The Tragedy of > Hamlet/ kindly share it on this list ? I am sorry I can > not find any. > Thank you so much for your support, > Best > LK > > 2015-11-02 13:14 GMT+01:00 Andy Blunden >: > > The long trail of spaces at the end of the URL may > cause people to get a bad link, Alex. > Try http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176 > > Why do you say Vasilyuk gives such a *shocking* > perspective on perezhivanie, Alex? > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > On 2/11/2015 10:20 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: > > Attach is the article that is locked. I have only > read the first article from the list and hoping to > read the other two by tomorrow sometime. I have a > sense that Vasilyuk work is a good answer against > the postmodern attitude of many psychotherapists > and counsellors today and especially in Australia. > Is funny though that narrative therapists in > Australia and especially Michael White was > thinking that is applying Vygotsky's ideas in his > work (i don't think he ever read his work > properly). Vasilyuk I think is shocking by giving > such an unexpected perspective to the word > *perezhivanie*. Another shocking perspective of > Vygotsky and against the postmodern attitudes of > many psychotherapists today comes from the Thesis > of Levykh Michael where he gives an amazing > description of the word (leachnost) which the > english translation is personality. > > Find his thesis in the following link > http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176________________________________________ > > Best Wishes, > Nektarios > > > From: > xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu > > [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu > ] on behalf of > Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net > ] > Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 7:49 PM > To: Annalisa Aguilar; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > The article I am referring to is at > http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10610405.2015.1064721 > People might be interested in the concept of > "psychotherapeutic reliance" for example. > The reliance is the process within the patient > which the > therapist relies upon to resolve the problem, thus > separating the technique used by the therapist > from the > process within the subject which is being relied > upon in > designing the technique. > In pre-Freudian days when the method was hypnosis, the > reliance is *suggestibility*. > FOr Freudian psychotherapy, the reliance is > *awareness*. > For Psychodrama, the reliance is *spontaneity*. > For Behavioural Therapy, the reliance is *learning*. > For Vasilyuk's "Co-experiencing" therapy the > reliance is > *perezhivanie*, and he goes on to describe the main > characteristics of perezhivanie. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > On 2/11/2015 6:50 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Unfortunately, Andy, that 2nd article is > locked down. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Nov 2 08:19:44 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 16:19:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: <56376020.3030207@mira.net> References: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> <56373846.8070500@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> , <56376020.3030207@mira.net> Message-ID: Hi Andy, No, actually I was talking about the second article on the list which was the one I thought you meant. That one is locked down. It is titled, "An Historical-Methodological Analysis of Psychotherapeutic Reliances" [http://www.tandfonline.com/na101/home/literatum/publisher/tandf/journals/covergifs/mrpo20/cover.jpg] An Historical-Methodological Analysis of Psychotherapeutic ... www.tandfonline.com Each psychotherapeutic approach is determined not only by its technique and theory but also by its general philosophy. While this philosophy has many aspects ... By happenstance, the gods have provided me a copy. Kind regards, Annalisa From NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au Mon Nov 2 15:18:43 2015 From: NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au (Nektarios Alexi) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 23:18:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> References: , <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> , <56373846.8070500@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local>, <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> Message-ID: <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121202@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> Hi Andy, It might be that only now after trying to read and understand Vygotsky's work for the last 4 years I might started having a sense what perezhivanie really is (so it might be that firstly I am shocked by realizing the depth and breath of this russian word) by reading Vasilyuk commentaries. Also I am talking from the perspective of many Australians, so call postmodern psychotherapists or otherwise call narrative psychotherapists, that their main teacher was Michael White, who claims in his books that he uses Vygotsky's idea of scaffolding to help people to restructure their narratives and as a consequence of that to overcome their mental health issues. I do not think that the way Vasilyuk understands Vygotsky has any simillarity with the way that many narrative psychotherapists might have understood Vygotsky, so I think for any postmodern thinker who claims to be a follower of Vygotsky it might be a bit shocking to read how Vasilyuk interprets many of the basic concepts of Vygotsky's work. Best Wishes, Nektarios ________________________________ From: Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 9:44 PM To: Nektarios Alexi; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Annalisa Aguilar Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans The long trail of spaces at the end of the URL may cause people to get a bad link, Alex. Try http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176 Why do you say Vasilyuk gives such a *shocking* perspective on perezhivanie, Alex? Andy ________________________________ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 2/11/2015 10:20 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: Attach is the article that is locked. I have only read the first article from the list and hoping to read the other two by tomorrow sometime. I have a sense that Vasilyuk work is a good answer against the postmodern attitude of many psychotherapists and counsellors today and especially in Australia. Is funny though that narrative therapists in Australia and especially Michael White was thinking that is applying Vygotsky's ideas in his work (i don't think he ever read his work properly). Vasilyuk I think is shocking by giving such an unexpected perspective to the word *perezhivanie*. Another shocking perspective of Vygotsky and against the postmodern attitudes of many psychotherapists today comes from the Thesis of Levykh Michael where he gives an amazing description of the word (leachnost) which the english translation is personality. Find his thesis in the following link http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176________________________________________ Best Wishes, Nektarios From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 7:49 PM To: Annalisa Aguilar; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans The article I am referring to is at http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10610405.2015.1064721 People might be interested in the concept of "psychotherapeutic reliance" for example. The reliance is the process within the patient which the therapist relies upon to resolve the problem, thus separating the technique used by the therapist from the process within the subject which is being relied upon in designing the technique. In pre-Freudian days when the method was hypnosis, the reliance is *suggestibility*. FOr Freudian psychotherapy, the reliance is *awareness*. For Psychodrama, the reliance is *spontaneity*. For Behavioural Therapy, the reliance is *learning*. For Vasilyuk's "Co-experiencing" therapy the reliance is *perezhivanie*, and he goes on to describe the main characteristics of perezhivanie. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 2/11/2015 6:50 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Unfortunately, Andy, that 2nd article is locked down. Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Nov 2 15:42:18 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 15:42:18 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121202@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> References: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> <56373846.8070500@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121202@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> Message-ID: Nektarios--- Where does LSV use the term, scaffolding? Hmmmmm. mike On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: > Hi Andy, > > > > It might be that only now after trying to read and understand Vygotsky's > work for the last 4 years I might started having a sense what perezhivanie > really is (so it might be that firstly I am shocked by realizing the depth > and breath of this russian word) by reading Vasilyuk commentaries. Also I > am talking from the perspective of many Australians, so call postmodern > psychotherapists or otherwise call narrative psychotherapists, that their > main teacher was Michael White, who claims in his books that he uses > Vygotsky's idea of scaffolding to help people to restructure their > narratives and as a consequence of that to overcome their mental health > issues. I do not think that the way Vasilyuk understands Vygotsky has any > simillarity with the way that many narrative psychotherapists might have > understood Vygotsky, so I think for any postmodern thinker who claims to be > a follower of Vygotsky it might be a bit shocking to read how Vasilyuk > interprets many of the basic concepts of Vygotsky's work. > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > Nektarios > > ________________________________ > From: Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 9:44 PM > To: Nektarios Alexi; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Annalisa Aguilar > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > The long trail of spaces at the end of the URL may cause people to get a > bad link, Alex. > Try http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176 > > Why do you say Vasilyuk gives such a *shocking* perspective on > perezhivanie, Alex? > Andy > ________________________________ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 2/11/2015 10:20 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: > > Attach is the article that is locked. I have only read the first article > from the list and hoping to read the other two by tomorrow sometime. I have > a sense that Vasilyuk work is a good answer against the postmodern attitude > of many psychotherapists and counsellors today and especially in Australia. > Is funny though that narrative therapists in Australia and especially > Michael White was thinking that is applying Vygotsky's ideas in his work > (i don't think he ever read his work properly). Vasilyuk I think is > shocking by giving such an unexpected perspective to the word > *perezhivanie*. Another shocking perspective of Vygotsky and against the > postmodern attitudes of many psychotherapists today comes from the Thesis > of Levykh Michael where he gives an amazing description of the word > (leachnost) which the english translation is personality. > > Find his thesis in the following link > http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176________________________________________ > > Best Wishes, > Nektarios > > > From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu> > [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu>] on behalf of > Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 7:49 PM > To: Annalisa Aguilar; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > The article I am referring to is at > http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10610405.2015.1064721 > People might be interested in the concept of > "psychotherapeutic reliance" for example. > The reliance is the process within the patient which the > therapist relies upon to resolve the problem, thus > separating the technique used by the therapist from the > process within the subject which is being relied upon in > designing the technique. > In pre-Freudian days when the method was hypnosis, the > reliance is *suggestibility*. > FOr Freudian psychotherapy, the reliance is *awareness*. > For Psychodrama, the reliance is *spontaneity*. > For Behavioural Therapy, the reliance is *learning*. > For Vasilyuk's "Co-experiencing" therapy the reliance is > *perezhivanie*, and he goes on to describe the main > characteristics of perezhivanie. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 2/11/2015 6:50 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Andy, that 2nd article is locked down. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au Mon Nov 2 15:54:30 2015 From: NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au (Nektarios Alexi) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 23:54:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: References: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> <56373846.8070500@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121202@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local>, Message-ID: <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121220@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> I have not seen it my self at any of Vygotskys work but Michael White in one of his books claims he uses the idea of scaffolding that is taken from Vygotsky's work for psychotherapeutic practice.Thats why I have said that it could be that Michael White never read Vygotsky. He might read some interpretations of Vygotsky from other scholars but not the original work of Vygotksy. I remember when I got interviewed for a couple counselling position and got asked whom are my favourite writers and said that one is Vygotsky (that was 3 years ago) the respond was "oh yes we know Vygotsky, Michael White the father of narrative therapy he uses his idea of scaffolding in his theories for counseling" since then to be honest I was thinking that scaffolding was Vygotksys concept:) ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of mike cole [mcole@ucsd.edu] Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2015 9:16 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans Nektarios--- Where does LSV use the term, scaffolding? Hmmmmm. mike On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: > Hi Andy, > > > > It might be that only now after trying to read and understand Vygotsky's > work for the last 4 years I might started having a sense what perezhivanie > really is (so it might be that firstly I am shocked by realizing the depth > and breath of this russian word) by reading Vasilyuk commentaries. Also I > am talking from the perspective of many Australians, so call postmodern > psychotherapists or otherwise call narrative psychotherapists, that their > main teacher was Michael White, who claims in his books that he uses > Vygotsky's idea of scaffolding to help people to restructure their > narratives and as a consequence of that to overcome their mental health > issues. I do not think that the way Vasilyuk understands Vygotsky has any > simillarity with the way that many narrative psychotherapists might have > understood Vygotsky, so I think for any postmodern thinker who claims to be > a follower of Vygotsky it might be a bit shocking to read how Vasilyuk > interprets many of the basic concepts of Vygotsky's work. > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > Nektarios > > ________________________________ > From: Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 9:44 PM > To: Nektarios Alexi; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Annalisa Aguilar > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > The long trail of spaces at the end of the URL may cause people to get a > bad link, Alex. > Try http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176 > > Why do you say Vasilyuk gives such a *shocking* perspective on > perezhivanie, Alex? > Andy > ________________________________ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 2/11/2015 10:20 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: > > Attach is the article that is locked. I have only read the first article > from the list and hoping to read the other two by tomorrow sometime. I have > a sense that Vasilyuk work is a good answer against the postmodern attitude > of many psychotherapists and counsellors today and especially in Australia. > Is funny though that narrative therapists in Australia and especially > Michael White was thinking that is applying Vygotsky's ideas in his work > (i don't think he ever read his work properly). Vasilyuk I think is > shocking by giving such an unexpected perspective to the word > *perezhivanie*. Another shocking perspective of Vygotsky and against the > postmodern attitudes of many psychotherapists today comes from the Thesis > of Levykh Michael where he gives an amazing description of the word > (leachnost) which the english translation is personality. > > Find his thesis in the following link > http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176________________________________________ > > Best Wishes, > Nektarios > > > From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu> > [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu>] on behalf of > Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 7:49 PM > To: Annalisa Aguilar; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > The article I am referring to is at > http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10610405.2015.1064721 > People might be interested in the concept of > "psychotherapeutic reliance" for example. > The reliance is the process within the patient which the > therapist relies upon to resolve the problem, thus > separating the technique used by the therapist from the > process within the subject which is being relied upon in > designing the technique. > In pre-Freudian days when the method was hypnosis, the > reliance is *suggestibility*. > FOr Freudian psychotherapy, the reliance is *awareness*. > For Psychodrama, the reliance is *spontaneity*. > For Behavioural Therapy, the reliance is *learning*. > For Vasilyuk's "Co-experiencing" therapy the reliance is > *perezhivanie*, and he goes on to describe the main > characteristics of perezhivanie. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 2/11/2015 6:50 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Andy, that 2nd article is locked down. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Mon Nov 2 16:14:54 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 00:14:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: References: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> <56373846.8070500@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121202@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> Message-ID: <6FFFB27E-3921-4410-87CD-394C8985FC64@uniandes.edu.co> But Mike, there's a whole Wikipedia page devoted to this! Martin On Nov 2, 2015, at 6:42 PM, mike cole wrote: > Nektarios--- Where does LSV use the term, scaffolding? Hmmmmm. > mike > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Nektarios Alexi > wrote: > >> Hi Andy, >> >> >> >> It might be that only now after trying to read and understand Vygotsky's >> work for the last 4 years I might started having a sense what perezhivanie >> really is (so it might be that firstly I am shocked by realizing the depth >> and breath of this russian word) by reading Vasilyuk commentaries. Also I >> am talking from the perspective of many Australians, so call postmodern >> psychotherapists or otherwise call narrative psychotherapists, that their >> main teacher was Michael White, who claims in his books that he uses >> Vygotsky's idea of scaffolding to help people to restructure their >> narratives and as a consequence of that to overcome their mental health >> issues. I do not think that the way Vasilyuk understands Vygotsky has any >> simillarity with the way that many narrative psychotherapists might have >> understood Vygotsky, so I think for any postmodern thinker who claims to be >> a follower of Vygotsky it might be a bit shocking to read how Vasilyuk >> interprets many of the basic concepts of Vygotsky's work. >> >> >> >> Best Wishes, >> >> >> >> Nektarios >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] >> Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 9:44 PM >> To: Nektarios Alexi; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Annalisa Aguilar >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans >> >> The long trail of spaces at the end of the URL may cause people to get a >> bad link, Alex. >> Try http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176 >> >> Why do you say Vasilyuk gives such a *shocking* perspective on >> perezhivanie, Alex? >> Andy >> ________________________________ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> On 2/11/2015 10:20 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: >> >> Attach is the article that is locked. I have only read the first article >> from the list and hoping to read the other two by tomorrow sometime. I have >> a sense that Vasilyuk work is a good answer against the postmodern attitude >> of many psychotherapists and counsellors today and especially in Australia. >> Is funny though that narrative therapists in Australia and especially >> Michael White was thinking that is applying Vygotsky's ideas in his work >> (i don't think he ever read his work properly). Vasilyuk I think is >> shocking by giving such an unexpected perspective to the word >> *perezhivanie*. Another shocking perspective of Vygotsky and against the >> postmodern attitudes of many psychotherapists today comes from the Thesis >> of Levykh Michael where he gives an amazing description of the word >> (leachnost) which the english translation is personality. >> >> Find his thesis in the following link >> http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176________________________________________ >> >> Best Wishes, >> Nektarios >> >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu> xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu> >> [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu> xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu>] on behalf of >> Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] >> Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 7:49 PM >> To: Annalisa Aguilar; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans >> >> The article I am referring to is at >> http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10610405.2015.1064721 >> People might be interested in the concept of >> "psychotherapeutic reliance" for example. >> The reliance is the process within the patient which the >> therapist relies upon to resolve the problem, thus >> separating the technique used by the therapist from the >> process within the subject which is being relied upon in >> designing the technique. >> In pre-Freudian days when the method was hypnosis, the >> reliance is *suggestibility*. >> FOr Freudian psychotherapy, the reliance is *awareness*. >> For Psychodrama, the reliance is *spontaneity*. >> For Behavioural Therapy, the reliance is *learning*. >> For Vasilyuk's "Co-experiencing" therapy the reliance is >> *perezhivanie*, and he goes on to describe the main >> characteristics of perezhivanie. >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> On 2/11/2015 6:50 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> >> Unfortunately, Andy, that 2nd article is locked down. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Mon Nov 2 16:19:56 2015 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 00:19:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121220@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> References: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> <56373846.8070500@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121202@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local>, , <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121220@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> Message-ID: as it turns out, Alexi, wikipedia sez influences on michael white (who is reported to have died in san diego in 2008) are: Influences While early influences included those of systems theory and cybernetics (Gregory Bateson),[7] White's main work drew on a wide range of sources, including literary theory (Jerome Bruner), cultural anthropology (Clifford Geertz, Barbara Myerhoff, Victor Turner), non-structuralist psychology (William James, Lev Vygotsky) and French critical / post-structuralist philosophy (Jacques Derrida, Gilles Deleuze and Michel Foucault).[8] so, probably white got the notion of scaffolding from jerome bruner, who has promoted the theory or scaffolding. phillip ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+phillip.white=ucdenver.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Nektarios Alexi Sent: Monday, November 2, 2015 4:54 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans I have not seen it my self at any of Vygotskys work but Michael White in one of his books claims he uses the idea of scaffolding that is taken from Vygotsky's work for psychotherapeutic practice.Thats why I have said that it could be that Michael White never read Vygotsky. He might read some interpretations of Vygotsky from other scholars but not the original work of Vygotksy. I remember when I got interviewed for a couple counselling position and got asked whom are my favourite writers and said that one is Vygotsky (that was 3 years ago) the respond was "oh yes we know Vygotsky, Michael White the father of narrative therapy he uses his idea of scaffolding in his theories for counseling" since then to be honest I was thinking that scaffolding was Vygotksys concept:) From NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au Mon Nov 2 16:24:53 2015 From: NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au (Nektarios Alexi) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 00:24:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: References: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> <56373846.8070500@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121202@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local>, , <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121220@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local>, Message-ID: <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121236@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> Yes Philip I thought it would be from Brunner who got the idea of scaffolding but in one of his books he claims that this idea is from Vygotsky. ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of White, Phillip [Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu] Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2015 9:51 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans as it turns out, Alexi, wikipedia sez influences on michael white (who is reported to have died in san diego in 2008) are: Influences While early influences included those of systems theory and cybernetics (Gregory Bateson),[7] White's main work drew on a wide range of sources, including literary theory (Jerome Bruner), cultural anthropology (Clifford Geertz, Barbara Myerhoff, Victor Turner), non-structuralist psychology (William James, Lev Vygotsky) and French critical / post-structuralist philosophy (Jacques Derrida, Gilles Deleuze and Michel Foucault).[8] so, probably white got the notion of scaffolding from jerome bruner, who has promoted the theory or scaffolding. phillip ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+phillip.white=ucdenver.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Nektarios Alexi Sent: Monday, November 2, 2015 4:54 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans I have not seen it my self at any of Vygotskys work but Michael White in one of his books claims he uses the idea of scaffolding that is taken from Vygotsky's work for psychotherapeutic practice.Thats why I have said that it could be that Michael White never read Vygotsky. He might read some interpretations of Vygotsky from other scholars but not the original work of Vygotksy. I remember when I got interviewed for a couple counselling position and got asked whom are my favourite writers and said that one is Vygotsky (that was 3 years ago) the respond was "oh yes we know Vygotsky, Michael White the father of narrative therapy he uses his idea of scaffolding in his theories for counseling" since then to be honest I was thinking that scaffolding was Vygotksys concept:) From NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au Mon Nov 2 16:30:03 2015 From: NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au (Nektarios Alexi) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 00:30:03 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121236@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> References: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> <56373846.8070500@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121202@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local>, , <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121220@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local>, , <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121236@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> Message-ID: <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121245@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> I googled and just found the following abstract In his most recent writings Michael White made extensive reference to the work of Russian psychologist Lev Vygotsky, taking up several Vygotskian concepts (e.g., scaffolding) into a re-visioning of his narrative conversations maps. We used observational coding to test White's newly formulated scaffolding conversations map against actual process in therapy with children, and the current paper is a qualitative report of our findings. We found that most speech turns were codable at some level of the map, that children responded to therapists' scaffolding, and that therapists and children tended to proceed through the steps of the map in single-session therapy. These findings demonstrate that White's model of therapy is observable and suggest that change occurred at the level of language over the session. This study lays the foundation for future research regarding potential links between White's process and therapeutic outcomes. Read More: http://guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/jsyt.2010.29.4.74?journalCode=jsyt ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Nektarios Alexi [NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au] Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2015 9:57 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans Yes Philip I thought it would be from Brunner who got the idea of scaffolding but in one of his books he claims that this idea is from Vygotsky. ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of White, Phillip [Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu] Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2015 9:51 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans as it turns out, Alexi, wikipedia sez influences on michael white (who is reported to have died in san diego in 2008) are: Influences While early influences included those of systems theory and cybernetics (Gregory Bateson),[7] White's main work drew on a wide range of sources, including literary theory (Jerome Bruner), cultural anthropology (Clifford Geertz, Barbara Myerhoff, Victor Turner), non-structuralist psychology (William James, Lev Vygotsky) and French critical / post-structuralist philosophy (Jacques Derrida, Gilles Deleuze and Michel Foucault).[8] so, probably white got the notion of scaffolding from jerome bruner, who has promoted the theory or scaffolding. phillip ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+phillip.white=ucdenver.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Nektarios Alexi Sent: Monday, November 2, 2015 4:54 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans I have not seen it my self at any of Vygotskys work but Michael White in one of his books claims he uses the idea of scaffolding that is taken from Vygotsky's work for psychotherapeutic practice.Thats why I have said that it could be that Michael White never read Vygotsky. He might read some interpretations of Vygotsky from other scholars but not the original work of Vygotksy. I remember when I got interviewed for a couple counselling position and got asked whom are my favourite writers and said that one is Vygotsky (that was 3 years ago) the respond was "oh yes we know Vygotsky, Michael White the father of narrative therapy he uses his idea of scaffolding in his theories for counseling" since then to be honest I was thinking that scaffolding was Vygotksys concept:) From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Nov 2 16:49:17 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 16:49:17 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121245@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> References: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> <56373846.8070500@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121202@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121220@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121236@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121245@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> Message-ID: Hi Niktarios --- The difficulty of separating what LSV wrote from later interpretations that get read back on to him is pervasive and probably unavoidable. Even those who read his Russian texts do not agree on interpretation. The difficulty is compounded for us non-Russians because of translation difficulties (to which I have contributed -- see mca article on obuchenie) but it is also a result of people reading secondary sources and assuming that the writer's position, even when s/he draws upon LSV, is equivalent to LSV. Scaffolding is one of those innovations that seems to stick around tenaciously, despite criticism. I think its great that the perezhivanie discussion has led to issues of therapy which have much less hold in the US, it seems, than other parts of the world.. Lois Holtzman's writings on the topic are a clear exception. For those with this kind of interest, it provides an opening for finding out who else in xmca land is similarly inclined. mike On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 4:30 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: > I googled and just found the following abstract > > > In his most recent writings Michael White made extensive reference to the > work of Russian psychologist Lev Vygotsky, taking up several Vygotskian > concepts (e.g., scaffolding) into a re-visioning of his narrative > conversations maps. We used observational coding to test White's newly > formulated scaffolding conversations map against actual process in therapy > with children, and the current paper is a qualitative report of our > findings. We found that most speech turns were codable at some level of the > map, that children responded to therapists' scaffolding, and that > therapists and children tended to proceed through the steps of the map in > single-session therapy. These findings demonstrate that White's model of > therapy is observable and suggest that change occurred at the level of > language over the session. This study lays the foundation for future > research regarding potential links between White's process and therapeutic > outcomes. > > Read More: > http://guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/jsyt.2010.29.4.74?journalCode=jsyt > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu > [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of > Nektarios Alexi [NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au] > Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2015 9:57 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > Yes Philip I thought it would be from Brunner who got the idea of > scaffolding but in one of his books he claims that this idea is from > Vygotsky. > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu > [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of > White, Phillip [Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2015 9:51 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > as it turns out, Alexi, wikipedia sez influences on michael white (who is > reported to have died in san diego in 2008) are: > > Influences > While early influences included those of systems theory and cybernetics > (Gregory Bateson),[7] White's main work drew on a wide range of sources, > including literary theory (Jerome Bruner), cultural anthropology (Clifford > Geertz, Barbara Myerhoff, Victor Turner), non-structuralist psychology > (William James, Lev Vygotsky) and French critical / post-structuralist > philosophy (Jacques Derrida, Gilles Deleuze and Michel Foucault).[8] > > so, probably white got the notion of scaffolding from jerome bruner, who > has promoted the theory or scaffolding. > > phillip > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+phillip.white=ucdenver.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of > Nektarios Alexi > Sent: Monday, November 2, 2015 4:54 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > I have not seen it my self at any of Vygotskys work but Michael White in > one of his books claims he uses the idea of scaffolding that is taken from > Vygotsky's work for psychotherapeutic practice.Thats why I have said that > it could be that Michael White never read Vygotsky. He might read some > interpretations of Vygotsky from other scholars but not the original work > of Vygotksy. > > I remember when I got interviewed for a couple counselling position and > got asked whom are my favourite writers and said that one is Vygotsky (that > was 3 years ago) the respond was "oh yes we know Vygotsky, Michael White > the father of narrative therapy he uses his idea of scaffolding in his > theories for counseling" since then to be honest I was thinking that > scaffolding was Vygotksys concept:) > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From ablunden@mira.net Mon Nov 2 16:57:35 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 11:57:35 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121202@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> References: , <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> , <56373846.8070500@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local>, <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121202@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> Message-ID: <5638067F.5060708@mira.net> So we have seen how the work of "Chinese whispers" can substitute for interpretation, Alex. I doubt if any English speaker, who cannot read Russian, could possibly gain an idea of what Vygotsky meant by "perezhivanie" on the basis of English translations of Vygotsky's writings. The make-do translation of "lived experience" only serves to convince people that they need enquire no further. Perezhivanie is a word in the Russian language however, so however Vygotsky integrated the concept into his theory, the concept does exist in Russian culture, and is available for Vasilyuk and others to use. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 3/11/2015 10:18 AM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > It might be that only now after trying to read and > understand Vygotsky's work for the last 4 years I might > started having a sense what perezhivanie really is (so it > might be that firstly I am shocked by realizing the depth > and breath of this russian word) by reading Vasilyuk > commentaries. Also I am talking from the perspective of > many Australians, so call postmodern psychotherapists or > otherwise call narrative psychotherapists, that their main > teacher was Michael White, who claims in his books that he > uses Vygotsky's idea of scaffolding to help people to > restructure their narratives and as a consequence of that > to overcome their mental health issues. I do not think > that the way Vasilyuk understands Vygotsky has any > simillarity with the way that many narrative > psychotherapists might have understood Vygotsky, so I > think for any postmodern thinker who claims to be a > follower of Vygotsky it might be a bit shocking to read > how Vasilyuk interprets many of the basic concepts of > Vygotsky's work. > > Best Wishes, > > Nektarios > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > *Sent:* Monday, 2 November 2015 9:44 PM > *To:* Nektarios Alexi; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; > Annalisa Aguilar > *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > The long trail of spaces at the end of the URL may cause > people to get a bad link, Alex. > Try http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176 > > Why do you say Vasilyuk gives such a *shocking* > perspective on perezhivanie, Alex? > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 2/11/2015 10:20 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: >> Attach is the article that is locked. I have only read the first article from the list and hoping to read the other two by tomorrow sometime. I have a sense that Vasilyuk work is a good answer against the postmodern attitude of many psychotherapists and counsellors today and especially in Australia. Is funny though that narrative therapists in Australia and especially Michael White was thinking that is applying Vygotsky's ideas in his work (i don't think he ever read his work properly). Vasilyuk I think is shocking by giving such an unexpected perspective to the word *perezhivanie*. Another shocking perspective of Vygotsky and against the postmodern attitudes of many psychotherapists today comes from the Thesis of Levykh Michael where he gives an amazing description of the word (leachnost) which the english translation is personality. >> >> Find his thesis in the following linkhttp://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176________________________________________ >> >> Best Wishes, >> Nektarios >> >> >> From:xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] >> Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 7:49 PM >> To: Annalisa Aguilar; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans >> >> The article I am referring to is at >> http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10610405.2015.1064721 >> People might be interested in the concept of >> "psychotherapeutic reliance" for example. >> The reliance is the process within the patient which the >> therapist relies upon to resolve the problem, thus >> separating the technique used by the therapist from the >> process within the subject which is being relied upon in >> designing the technique. >> In pre-Freudian days when the method was hypnosis, the >> reliance is *suggestibility*. >> FOr Freudian psychotherapy, the reliance is *awareness*. >> For Psychodrama, the reliance is *spontaneity*. >> For Behavioural Therapy, the reliance is *learning*. >> For Vasilyuk's "Co-experiencing" therapy the reliance is >> *perezhivanie*, and he goes on to describe the main >> characteristics of perezhivanie. >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> On 2/11/2015 6:50 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> Unfortunately, Andy, that 2nd article is locked down. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> > From NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au Mon Nov 2 18:02:09 2015 From: NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au (Nektarios Alexi) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 02:02:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: <5638067F.5060708@mira.net> References: , <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> , <56373846.8070500@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local>, <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121202@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local>, <5638067F.5060708@mira.net> Message-ID: <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112127F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> I have just finished reading the article of Vasilyuk "An Historical-Methodological Analysis of Psychotherapeutic Reliances" This article is clearly an apologetical article of a deep Christian orthodox believer and practitioner and I think it can only make sense to readers that have some background in the readings of the Fathers of the Church and more specifically the collection of texts of Philokallia which is the summit of the experience of the Christian hermits and ascets of Eastern christianity. >From the notes at the end of the article: 10. ??The doctrine of theosis is the central topic of Byzantine theology and the entire experience of Eastern Christianity? (Archbishop Vasil). . . . The doctrine of Theosis is the most maximalist and audacious ?religious ideal? that can be imagined? (Khoruzhii, 1995, pp. 123?24). Otherwise the main point of this article it might make absolutely no sense. Nektarios ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2015 10:29 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans So we have seen how the work of "Chinese whispers" can substitute for interpretation, Alex. I doubt if any English speaker, who cannot read Russian, could possibly gain an idea of what Vygotsky meant by "perezhivanie" on the basis of English translations of Vygotsky's writings. The make-do translation of "lived experience" only serves to convince people that they need enquire no further. Perezhivanie is a word in the Russian language however, so however Vygotsky integrated the concept into his theory, the concept does exist in Russian culture, and is available for Vasilyuk and others to use. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 3/11/2015 10:18 AM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > It might be that only now after trying to read and > understand Vygotsky's work for the last 4 years I might > started having a sense what perezhivanie really is (so it > might be that firstly I am shocked by realizing the depth > and breath of this russian word) by reading Vasilyuk > commentaries. Also I am talking from the perspective of > many Australians, so call postmodern psychotherapists or > otherwise call narrative psychotherapists, that their main > teacher was Michael White, who claims in his books that he > uses Vygotsky's idea of scaffolding to help people to > restructure their narratives and as a consequence of that > to overcome their mental health issues. I do not think > that the way Vasilyuk understands Vygotsky has any > simillarity with the way that many narrative > psychotherapists might have understood Vygotsky, so I > think for any postmodern thinker who claims to be a > follower of Vygotsky it might be a bit shocking to read > how Vasilyuk interprets many of the basic concepts of > Vygotsky's work. > > Best Wishes, > > Nektarios > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > *Sent:* Monday, 2 November 2015 9:44 PM > *To:* Nektarios Alexi; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; > Annalisa Aguilar > *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > The long trail of spaces at the end of the URL may cause > people to get a bad link, Alex. > Try http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176 > > Why do you say Vasilyuk gives such a *shocking* > perspective on perezhivanie, Alex? > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 2/11/2015 10:20 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: >> Attach is the article that is locked. I have only read the first article from the list and hoping to read the other two by tomorrow sometime. I have a sense that Vasilyuk work is a good answer against the postmodern attitude of many psychotherapists and counsellors today and especially in Australia. Is funny though that narrative therapists in Australia and especially Michael White was thinking that is applying Vygotsky's ideas in his work (i don't think he ever read his work properly). Vasilyuk I think is shocking by giving such an unexpected perspective to the word *perezhivanie*. Another shocking perspective of Vygotsky and against the postmodern attitudes of many psychotherapists today comes from the Thesis of Levykh Michael where he gives an amazing description of the word (leachnost) which the english translation is personality. >> >> Find his thesis in the following linkhttp://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176________________________________________ >> >> Best Wishes, >> Nektarios >> >> >> From:xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] >> Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 7:49 PM >> To: Annalisa Aguilar; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans >> >> The article I am referring to is at >> http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10610405.2015.1064721 >> People might be interested in the concept of >> "psychotherapeutic reliance" for example. >> The reliance is the process within the patient which the >> therapist relies upon to resolve the problem, thus >> separating the technique used by the therapist from the >> process within the subject which is being relied upon in >> designing the technique. >> In pre-Freudian days when the method was hypnosis, the >> reliance is *suggestibility*. >> FOr Freudian psychotherapy, the reliance is *awareness*. >> For Psychodrama, the reliance is *spontaneity*. >> For Behavioural Therapy, the reliance is *learning*. >> For Vasilyuk's "Co-experiencing" therapy the reliance is >> *perezhivanie*, and he goes on to describe the main >> characteristics of perezhivanie. >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> On 2/11/2015 6:50 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> Unfortunately, Andy, that 2nd article is locked down. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Nov 2 20:01:48 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 20:01:48 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112127F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> References: , <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> , <56373846.8070500@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local>, <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121202@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local>, <5638067F.5060708@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112127F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> Message-ID: <563831d4.81f2440a.180c7.634b@mx.google.com> The question of reading vygotsky's own words (1st voice) in contrast with reading others interpretations of vygotsky's 1st order voice is the shift to 2nd order voice ( the reflective ABOUT voice). In this months journal we will be exploring Kim Skinner's article. I am also referring to another article in this months journal written by Kym Maclaren titled *The Magic Happens Inside Out* This article captures the radically different *experience* of encountering (and undergoing) *first order voice* in contrast to *second order voice* (the about voice). I believe Maclaren is indicating (MARKING) a profound shift in character of voice that is moving from a place of "unknowing" 1st order voice which opens to sociality in contrast to the 2nd order voice which expresses what was previously spoken within 1st order voice. I am now *marking* out a space within THIS particular dialogical thread as an encounter that may or may not be noticed or accepted as an invitation. It is not in the form of a dis-pute. This is not a place of *discovery* (which implies it was already given and is now being revealed). This is not a place of *construction* implying designs and blueprints to bring into form what has been pre-conceived and designed. The quality of 1st order voice is a quality of genesis (birth) of something novel within what is given. Something emerging into our *situations* (spaces of sociality). Kym Maclaren's article expresses the *magic* of this space when she portrays prison inmates and university students sharing a project exploring the magic of 1st order voice that transfigures philosophy, psychology, and pedagogy. The intent of this months journal is to open a place for (and) of creative passionate dialogical 1st order voices The intent is to create a particular quality and character OF *experience* -----Original Message----- From: "Nektarios Alexi" Sent: ?2015-?11-?02 6:03 PM To: "ablunden@mira.net" ; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans I have just finished reading the article of Vasilyuk "An Historical-Methodological Analysis of Psychotherapeutic Reliances" This article is clearly an apologetical article of a deep Christian orthodox believer and practitioner and I think it can only make sense to readers that have some background in the readings of the Fathers of the Church and more specifically the collection of texts of Philokallia which is the summit of the experience of the Christian hermits and ascets of Eastern christianity. >From the notes at the end of the article: 10. ??The doctrine of theosis is the central topic of Byzantine theology and the entire experience of Eastern Christianity? (Archbishop Vasil). . . . The doctrine of Theosis is the most maximalist and audacious ?religious ideal? that can be imagined? (Khoruzhii, 1995, pp. 123?24). Otherwise the main point of this article it might make absolutely no sense. Nektarios ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2015 10:29 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans So we have seen how the work of "Chinese whispers" can substitute for interpretation, Alex. I doubt if any English speaker, who cannot read Russian, could possibly gain an idea of what Vygotsky meant by "perezhivanie" on the basis of English translations of Vygotsky's writings. The make-do translation of "lived experience" only serves to convince people that they need enquire no further. Perezhivanie is a word in the Russian language however, so however Vygotsky integrated the concept into his theory, the concept does exist in Russian culture, and is available for Vasilyuk and others to use. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 3/11/2015 10:18 AM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > It might be that only now after trying to read and > understand Vygotsky's work for the last 4 years I might > started having a sense what perezhivanie really is (so it > might be that firstly I am shocked by realizing the depth > and breath of this russian word) by reading Vasilyuk > commentaries. Also I am talking from the perspective of > many Australians, so call postmodern psychotherapists or > otherwise call narrative psychotherapists, that their main > teacher was Michael White, who claims in his books that he > uses Vygotsky's idea of scaffolding to help people to > restructure their narratives and as a consequence of that > to overcome their mental health issues. I do not think > that the way Vasilyuk understands Vygotsky has any > simillarity with the way that many narrative > psychotherapists might have understood Vygotsky, so I > think for any postmodern thinker who claims to be a > follower of Vygotsky it might be a bit shocking to read > how Vasilyuk interprets many of the basic concepts of > Vygotsky's work. > > Best Wishes, > > Nektarios > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > *Sent:* Monday, 2 November 2015 9:44 PM > *To:* Nektarios Alexi; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; > Annalisa Aguilar > *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > The long trail of spaces at the end of the URL may cause > people to get a bad link, Alex. > Try http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176 > > Why do you say Vasilyuk gives such a *shocking* > perspective on perezhivanie, Alex? > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 2/11/2015 10:20 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: >> Attach is the article that is locked. I have only read the first article from the list and hoping to read the other two by tomorrow sometime. I have a sense that Vasilyuk work is a good answer against the postmodern attitude of many psychotherapists and counsellors today and especially in Australia. Is funny though that narrative therapists in Australia and especially Michael White was thinking that is applying Vygotsky's ideas in his work (i don't think he ever read his work properly). Vasilyuk I think is shocking by giving such an unexpected perspective to the word *perezhivanie*. Another shocking perspective of Vygotsky and against the postmodern attitudes of many psychotherapists today comes from the Thesis of Levykh Michael where he gives an amazing description of the word (leachnost) which the english translation is personality. >> >> Find his thesis in the following linkhttp://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176________________________________________ >> >> Best Wishes, >> Nektarios >> >> >> From:xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] >> Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 7:49 PM >> To: Annalisa Aguilar; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans >> >> The article I am referring to is at >> http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10610405.2015.1064721 >> People might be interested in the concept of >> "psychotherapeutic reliance" for example. >> The reliance is the process within the patient which the >> therapist relies upon to resolve the problem, thus >> separating the technique used by the therapist from the >> process within the subject which is being relied upon in >> designing the technique. >> In pre-Freudian days when the method was hypnosis, the >> reliance is *suggestibility*. >> FOr Freudian psychotherapy, the reliance is *awareness*. >> For Psychodrama, the reliance is *spontaneity*. >> For Behavioural Therapy, the reliance is *learning*. >> For Vasilyuk's "Co-experiencing" therapy the reliance is >> *perezhivanie*, and he goes on to describe the main >> characteristics of perezhivanie. >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> On 2/11/2015 6:50 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> Unfortunately, Andy, that 2nd article is locked down. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Nov 2 20:09:38 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 20:09:38 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: <563831d4.81f2440a.180c7.634b@mx.google.com> References: , <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> , <56373846.8070500@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local>, <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121202@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local>, <5638067F.5060708@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112127F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <563831d4.81f2440a.180c7.634b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <563833ad.ec44440a.85e36.7b47@mx.google.com> One further thought. When Michael White uses the concept *scaffolding* he is marking a place of Bruner's 1st order voice. It is a mis-step to refer scaffolding to vygotsky (which is 2nd order voice). As Bruner searched for a concept he imagined a scaffold and it was his 1st order voice that was the magic bringing this image to sociality. -----Original Message----- From: "Lplarry" Sent: ?2015-?11-?02 8:02 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ; "ablunden@mira.net" Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans The question of reading vygotsky's own words (1st voice) in contrast with reading others interpretations of vygotsky's 1st order voice is the shift to 2nd order voice ( the reflective ABOUT voice). In this months journal we will be exploring Kim Skinner's article. I am also referring to another article in this months journal written by Kym Maclaren titled *The Magic Happens Inside Out* This article captures the radically different *experience* of encountering (and undergoing) *first order voice* in contrast to *second order voice* (the about voice). I believe Maclaren is indicating (MARKING) a profound shift in character of voice that is moving from a place of "unknowing" 1st order voice which opens to sociality in contrast to the 2nd order voice which expresses what was previously spoken within 1st order voice. I am now *marking* out a space within THIS particular dialogical thread as an encounter that may or may not be noticed or accepted as an invitation. It is not in the form of a dis-pute. This is not a place of *discovery* (which implies it was already given and is now being revealed). This is not a place of *construction* implying designs and blueprints to bring into form what has been pre-conceived and designed. The quality of 1st order voice is a quality of genesis (birth) of something novel within what is given. Something emerging into our *situations* (spaces of sociality). Kym Maclaren's article expresses the *magic* of this space when she portrays prison inmates and university students sharing a project exploring the magic of 1st order voice that transfigures philosophy, psychology, and pedagogy. The intent of this months journal is to open a place for (and) of creative passionate dialogical 1st order voices The intent is to create a particular quality and character OF *experience* From: Nektarios Alexi Sent: ?2015-?11-?02 6:03 PM To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans I have just finished reading the article of Vasilyuk "An Historical-Methodological Analysis of Psychotherapeutic Reliances" This article is clearly an apologetical article of a deep Christian orthodox believer and practitioner and I think it can only make sense to readers that have some background in the readings of the Fathers of the Church and more specifically the collection of texts of Philokallia which is the summit of the experience of the Christian hermits and ascets of Eastern christianity. >From the notes at the end of the article: 10. ??The doctrine of theosis is the central topic of Byzantine theology and the entire experience of Eastern Christianity? (Archbishop Vasil). . . . The doctrine of Theosis is the most maximalist and audacious ?religious ideal? that can be imagined? (Khoruzhii, 1995, pp. 123?24). Otherwise the main point of this article it might make absolutely no sense. Nektarios ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2015 10:29 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans So we have seen how the work of "Chinese whispers" can substitute for interpretation, Alex. I doubt if any English speaker, who cannot read Russian, could possibly gain an idea of what Vygotsky meant by "perezhivanie" on the basis of English translations of Vygotsky's writings. The make-do translation of "lived experience" only serves to convince people that they need enquire no further. Perezhivanie is a word in the Russian language however, so however Vygotsky integrated the concept into his theory, the concept does exist in Russian culture, and is available for Vasilyuk and others to use. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 3/11/2015 10:18 AM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > It might be that only now after trying to read and > understand Vygotsky's work for the last 4 years I might > started having a sense what perezhivanie really is (so it > might be that firstly I am shocked by realizing the depth > and breath of this russian word) by reading Vasilyuk > commentaries. Also I am talking from the perspective of > many Australians, so call postmodern psychotherapists or > otherwise call narrative psychotherapists, that their main > teacher was Michael White, who claims in his books that he > uses Vygotsky's idea of scaffolding to help people to > restructure their narratives and as a consequence of that > to overcome their mental health issues. I do not think > that the way Vasilyuk understands Vygotsky has any > simillarity with the way that many narrative > psychotherapists might have understood Vygotsky, so I > think for any postmodern thinker who claims to be a > follower of Vygotsky it might be a bit shocking to read > how Vasilyuk interprets many of the basic concepts of > Vygotsky's work. > > Best Wishes, > > Nektarios > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > *Sent:* Monday, 2 November 2015 9:44 PM > *To:* Nektarios Alexi; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; > Annalisa Aguilar > *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > The long trail of spaces at the end of the URL may cause > people to get a bad link, Alex. > Try http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176 > > Why do you say Vasilyuk gives such a *shocking* > perspective on perezhivanie, Alex? > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 2/11/2015 10:20 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: >> Attach is the article that is locked. I have only read the first article from the list and hoping to read the other two by tomorrow sometime. I have a sense that Vasilyuk work is a good answer against the postmodern attitude of many psychotherapists and counsellors today and especially in Australia. Is funny though that narrative therapists in Australia and especially Michael White was thinking that is applying Vygotsky's ideas in his work (i don't think he ever read his work properly). Vasilyuk I think is shocking by giving such an unexpected perspective to the word *perezhivanie*. Another shocking perspective of Vygotsky and against the postmodern attitudes of many psychotherapists today comes from the Thesis of Levykh Michael where he gives an amazing description of the word (leachnost) which the english translation is personality. >> >> Find his thesis in the following linkhttp://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176________________________________________ >> >> Best Wishes, >> Nektarios >> >> >> From:xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] >> Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 7:49 PM >> To: Annalisa Aguilar; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans >> >> The article I am referring to is at >> http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10610405.2015.1064721 >> People might be interested in the concept of >> "psychotherapeutic reliance" for example. >> The reliance is the process within the patient which the >> therapist relies upon to resolve the problem, thus >> separating the technique used by the therapist from the >> process within the subject which is being relied upon in >> designing the technique. >> In pre-Freudian days when the method was hypnosis, the >> reliance is *suggestibility*. >> FOr Freudian psychotherapy, the reliance is *awareness*. >> For Psychodrama, the reliance is *spontaneity*. >> For Behavioural Therapy, the reliance is *learning*. >> For Vasilyuk's "Co-experiencing" therapy the reliance is >> *perezhivanie*, and he goes on to describe the main >> characteristics of perezhivanie. >> Andy [The entire original message is not included.] From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Tue Nov 3 06:36:13 2015 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 09:36:13 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: References: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> <56373846.8070500@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121202@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121220@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121236@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121245@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> Message-ID: Hi All, In a series of emails to Professor Bruner I wrote when writing about the history of Vygotsky's legacy in the USA I asked him: * "When did you first come up with the notion of scaffolding? Was it connected to an observation out of your own experience in research or a personal experience?"* Here is his reply. On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Jerome S Bruner wrote: * Just one of those "labelling intuitions" that came out of the blue! jb* Robert Lake On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 7:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > Hi Niktarios --- The difficulty of separating what LSV wrote from later > interpretations that get read back on to him is pervasive and probably > unavoidable. Even those who read his Russian texts do not agree on > interpretation. > > The difficulty is compounded for us non-Russians because of translation > difficulties (to which I have contributed -- see mca article on obuchenie) > but it is also a result of people reading secondary sources and assuming > that the writer's position, even when s/he draws upon LSV, is equivalent to > LSV. > > Scaffolding is one of those innovations that seems to stick around > tenaciously, despite criticism. > > I think its great that the perezhivanie discussion has led to issues of > therapy which have much less hold in the US, it seems, than other parts of > the world.. Lois Holtzman's writings on the topic are a clear exception. > For those with this kind of interest, it provides an opening for finding > out who else in xmca land is similarly inclined. > > mike > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 4:30 PM, Nektarios Alexi < > NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au> > wrote: > > > I googled and just found the following abstract > > > > > > In his most recent writings Michael White made extensive reference to the > > work of Russian psychologist Lev Vygotsky, taking up several Vygotskian > > concepts (e.g., scaffolding) into a re-visioning of his narrative > > conversations maps. We used observational coding to test White's newly > > formulated scaffolding conversations map against actual process in > therapy > > with children, and the current paper is a qualitative report of our > > findings. We found that most speech turns were codable at some level of > the > > map, that children responded to therapists' scaffolding, and that > > therapists and children tended to proceed through the steps of the map in > > single-session therapy. These findings demonstrate that White's model of > > therapy is observable and suggest that change occurred at the level of > > language over the session. This study lays the foundation for future > > research regarding potential links between White's process and > therapeutic > > outcomes. > > > > Read More: > > > http://guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/jsyt.2010.29.4.74?journalCode=jsyt > > > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu > > [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf > of > > Nektarios Alexi [NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au] > > Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2015 9:57 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > > > Yes Philip I thought it would be from Brunner who got the idea of > > scaffolding but in one of his books he claims that this idea is from > > Vygotsky. > > > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu > > [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf > of > > White, Phillip [Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu] > > Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2015 9:51 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > > > as it turns out, Alexi, wikipedia sez influences on michael white (who is > > reported to have died in san diego in 2008) are: > > > > Influences > > While early influences included those of systems theory and cybernetics > > (Gregory Bateson),[7] White's main work drew on a wide range of sources, > > including literary theory (Jerome Bruner), cultural anthropology > (Clifford > > Geertz, Barbara Myerhoff, Victor Turner), non-structuralist psychology > > (William James, Lev Vygotsky) and French critical / post-structuralist > > philosophy (Jacques Derrida, Gilles Deleuze and Michel Foucault).[8] > > > > so, probably white got the notion of scaffolding from jerome bruner, who > > has promoted the theory or scaffolding. > > > > phillip > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces+phillip.white=ucdenver.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf > of > > Nektarios Alexi > > Sent: Monday, November 2, 2015 4:54 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > > > I have not seen it my self at any of Vygotskys work but Michael White in > > one of his books claims he uses the idea of scaffolding that is taken > from > > Vygotsky's work for psychotherapeutic practice.Thats why I have said that > > it could be that Michael White never read Vygotsky. He might read some > > interpretations of Vygotsky from other scholars but not the original work > > of Vygotksy. > > > > I remember when I got interviewed for a couple counselling position and > > got asked whom are my favourite writers and said that one is Vygotsky > (that > > was 3 years ago) the respond was "oh yes we know Vygotsky, Michael White > > the father of narrative therapy he uses his idea of scaffolding in his > > theories for counseling" since then to be honest I was thinking that > > scaffolding was Vygotksys concept:) > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > -- Robert Lake Ed.D. Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Nov 3 07:37:37 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 07:37:37 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: References: <56370A48.4000103@mira.net> <56373846.8070500@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA112118F@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <563753AB.6020501@mira.net> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121202@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121220@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121236@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAAA1121245@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> Message-ID: Robert, let's focus in on this *just* Just one of those labelling *intuitions* that arrived out of the blue. My question is if it arrived *within* the blue? Andy mentioned the label *living experience*. I want to offer Vincent Colipietro's 1st order voice [genesis or natality] exploring this theme of *just intuitions OF* He is marking an aspect of Peirce's notion of *living experience* [which has a SEMBLANCE to Vygotsky's notions] " But it is other facets of Peirce?s preoccupation with growth that I want to consider here. While *methodeutic *captures Peirce?s focal preoccupation with offering a normative account of objective inquiry, in the context of an evolutionary cosmology, speculative rhetoric conveys the still largely unrealized potential of his philosophical imagination, inasmuch as this imagination is evident in his vision of a thoroughly generalized conception of rhetoric (see, however, Bird, 1959; also Santaella, 1999, esp. pp. 388?90). According to Peirce, ?the woof and warp of all thought and all research is symbols, and the life of thought and science is the life inherent in symbols? (CP 2.220). Symbols cannot function apart from other modes of signification, so a detailed, nuanced, and comprehensive account of the various modes of signification is required for doing justice to scientific investigation (or objective inquiry). However, the execution of this task requires unblinking recognition of the vital character, the irrepressible life, inherent in our experimental practices (see, e.g., CP 1.234?5). But, from Peirce?s perspective, the very forms of living beings grow (not just those organisms themselves): by complex processes involving chance and catastrophe, compulsive attractions and alluring radiance, fierce struggle and cherishing concern, the forms of life themselves evolve." Robert, what Colipietro is saying expressing his 1st order voice is the need for unblinking recognition of the vital character [anima character] the irrepressible life INHERENT [in other words *within*] our experimental practices. I do not know if Vasilyuk's notions have a family *semblance* to this exploration of "living experience" within a *space of play* [situations] but I speculate it does. Larry On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 6:36 AM, Robert Lake wrote: > Hi All, > In a series of emails to Professor Bruner I wrote when writing > about the history of Vygotsky's legacy in the USA I asked him: > > > > * "When did you first come up with the notion of scaffolding? Was > it connected to an observation out of your own experience in research or a > personal experience?"* > > > Here is his reply. > On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Jerome S Bruner wrote: > > * Just one of those "labelling intuitions" that came out of the blue! > jb* > > Robert Lake > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 7:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Hi Niktarios --- The difficulty of separating what LSV wrote from later > > interpretations that get read back on to him is pervasive and probably > > unavoidable. Even those who read his Russian texts do not agree on > > interpretation. > > > > The difficulty is compounded for us non-Russians because of translation > > difficulties (to which I have contributed -- see mca article on > obuchenie) > > but it is also a result of people reading secondary sources and assuming > > that the writer's position, even when s/he draws upon LSV, is equivalent > to > > LSV. > > > > Scaffolding is one of those innovations that seems to stick around > > tenaciously, despite criticism. > > > > I think its great that the perezhivanie discussion has led to issues of > > therapy which have much less hold in the US, it seems, than other parts > of > > the world.. Lois Holtzman's writings on the topic are a clear exception. > > For those with this kind of interest, it provides an opening for finding > > out who else in xmca land is similarly inclined. > > > > mike > > > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 4:30 PM, Nektarios Alexi < > > NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au> > > wrote: > > > > > I googled and just found the following abstract > > > > > > > > > In his most recent writings Michael White made extensive reference to > the > > > work of Russian psychologist Lev Vygotsky, taking up several Vygotskian > > > concepts (e.g., scaffolding) into a re-visioning of his narrative > > > conversations maps. We used observational coding to test White's newly > > > formulated scaffolding conversations map against actual process in > > therapy > > > with children, and the current paper is a qualitative report of our > > > findings. We found that most speech turns were codable at some level of > > the > > > map, that children responded to therapists' scaffolding, and that > > > therapists and children tended to proceed through the steps of the map > in > > > single-session therapy. These findings demonstrate that White's model > of > > > therapy is observable and suggest that change occurred at the level of > > > language over the session. This study lays the foundation for future > > > research regarding potential links between White's process and > > therapeutic > > > outcomes. > > > > > > Read More: > > > > > > http://guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/jsyt.2010.29.4.74?journalCode=jsyt > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf > > of > > > Nektarios Alexi [NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au] > > > Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2015 9:57 AM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > > > > > Yes Philip I thought it would be from Brunner who got the idea of > > > scaffolding but in one of his books he claims that this idea is from > > > Vygotsky. > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf > > of > > > White, Phillip [Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu] > > > Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2015 9:51 AM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > > > > > as it turns out, Alexi, wikipedia sez influences on michael white (who > is > > > reported to have died in san diego in 2008) are: > > > > > > Influences > > > While early influences included those of systems theory and cybernetics > > > (Gregory Bateson),[7] White's main work drew on a wide range of > sources, > > > including literary theory (Jerome Bruner), cultural anthropology > > (Clifford > > > Geertz, Barbara Myerhoff, Victor Turner), non-structuralist psychology > > > (William James, Lev Vygotsky) and French critical / post-structuralist > > > philosophy (Jacques Derrida, Gilles Deleuze and Michel Foucault).[8] > > > > > > so, probably white got the notion of scaffolding from jerome bruner, > who > > > has promoted the theory or scaffolding. > > > > > > phillip > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces+phillip.white=ucdenver.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf > > of > > > Nektarios Alexi > > > Sent: Monday, November 2, 2015 4:54 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans > > > > > > I have not seen it my self at any of Vygotskys work but Michael White > in > > > one of his books claims he uses the idea of scaffolding that is taken > > from > > > Vygotsky's work for psychotherapeutic practice.Thats why I have said > that > > > it could be that Michael White never read Vygotsky. He might read some > > > interpretations of Vygotsky from other scholars but not the original > work > > > of Vygotksy. > > > > > > I remember when I got interviewed for a couple counselling position and > > > got asked whom are my favourite writers and said that one is Vygotsky > > (that > > > was 3 years ago) the respond was "oh yes we know Vygotsky, Michael > White > > > the father of narrative therapy he uses his idea of scaffolding in his > > > theories for counseling" since then to be honest I was thinking that > > > scaffolding was Vygotksys concept:) > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > -- > Robert Lake Ed.D. > Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake > P. O. Box 8144 > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > Statesboro, GA 30460 > *He not busy being born is busy dying.* > Bob Dylan (1964). > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Nov 3 23:40:53 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 23:40:53 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, I access the 2nd article by Vasilyuk but I am curious that there is a silence concerning the focus on suffering and where experience ends prayer begins. This place of mystery after the suffering of having *fallen away from ... [and] now returning to the source. Hamlet and Ophelia AS symbolic incarnations of the *mythic* narrative. THIS neo-Platonic mytheme which streams through Western ways of *addressing* suffering through SILENCE. In the beginning is the word is better understood as *in the beginning was the 1st order word*. The article by Kym Maclaren on this 1st order word which has its genesis in silence [the gap or *ma*]. The KEY is *prayer* as answer to suffering. THIS is the *open space* of silence. The open space of the 1st order word which is being born in this *situation* The 1st order word is INHERENT within this situation [this space of play]. I suggest we take Vasilyuk AT *his word* and *hear* what he is saying here. Why the *silence*?? On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:48 PM, mike cole wrote: > Those interested in the later work of Feodor Vasiliuk on > perezhivanie/experiencing, here is new material free. > > http://www.tandfonline.com/author/Vasilyuk%2C+F > > mike > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Wed Nov 4 04:36:46 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2015 07:36:46 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Sociology Editorial Board CfA - Deadline Approaching Message-ID: Sent on a Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note? II
-------- Original message --------
From: Sophie Jaques
Date:11/04/2015 5:59 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: pmocombe@mocombeian.com
Subject: Sociology Editorial Board CfA - Deadline Approaching
Sociology Editorial Board: Call for Applications **Apologies for cross-posting** Dear Colleagues, Sociology is seeking 4 new members to join its Editorial Board and serve from January 2016 to end of December 2018. Full details, as well as an application form, can be found on the BSA website: http://www.britsoc.co.uk/publications/pubsvacancies.aspx The deadline for applications is Thursday 12 November 2015, 5pm GMT. Criteria for Application Prospective Editorial Board members must: ? be nominated by a current BSA member ? be a BSA member or join the BSA at time of nomination ? have experience of being published in refereed journals ? have refereed a minimum of three articles for peer-review journals ? not be members of the Work, employment and society Editorial Board ? be based at a UK institution Nominations are accepted from any area or specialism within sociology. We welcome applications from any cultural or academic background to contribute to the diversity of research published by the journal. This Call for Applications is open to UK-based academics only; unfortunately, applicants based at international institutions are not eligible for the Editorial Board. Please contact Sophie Jaques, BSA Publications Assistant, via sociology.journal@britsoc.org.uk for further information. ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by TSG Cloud Based Mail Security. For more information please visit http://www.tsg.com/product/anti-virus-anti-spam ______________________________________________________________________ From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Nov 4 07:57:14 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 07:57:14 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Further comments of Vasiliuk The new psychology is an active, understanding, humanitarian psychology THAT *incarnates* a new SUBJECT MATTER *as* a LIVING THOU. This subject matter which is now coming into formation in Russia since the 1980's. I am *marking* this concept [subject matter] that is prior to subjectivity as the *space of play* [or situation] The KEY is living experience *AND* silence. [prayer as a way of marking silence as this OPEN SPACE. On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 11:40 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Mike, > I access the 2nd article by Vasilyuk but I am curious that there is a > silence concerning the focus on suffering and where experience ends prayer > begins. This place of mystery after the suffering of having *fallen away > from ... [and] now returning to the source. Hamlet and Ophelia AS symbolic > incarnations of the *mythic* narrative. > THIS neo-Platonic mytheme which streams through Western ways of > *addressing* suffering through SILENCE. > In the beginning is the word is better understood as *in the beginning was > the 1st order word*. > The article by Kym Maclaren on this 1st order word which has its genesis > in silence [the gap or *ma*]. > The KEY is *prayer* as answer to suffering. THIS is the *open space* of > silence. The open space of the 1st order word which is being born in this > *situation* The 1st order word is INHERENT within this situation [this > space of play]. > > I suggest we take Vasilyuk AT *his word* and *hear* what he is saying here. > > Why the *silence*?? > > On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:48 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Those interested in the later work of Feodor Vasiliuk on >> perezhivanie/experiencing, here is new material free. >> >> http://www.tandfonline.com/author/Vasilyuk%2C+F >> >> mike >> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> > > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Wed Nov 4 07:57:25 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2015 10:57:25 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fw: Black Male Academic Achievement Gap is Subject of Scholarly Book Talk Message-ID: <260otbried1jylk89ku94dpo.1446652645976@email.android.com> Sent on a Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note? II
-------- Original message --------
From: "Hannibal, Desmond"
Date:11/03/2015 5:21 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: pmocombe@mocombeian.com
Subject: Fw: Black Male Academic Achievement Gap is Subject of Scholarly Book Talk
See attached promotion of your upcoming book talk. Thanks Desmond Hannibal Programs & Exhibits Section Coordinator African-American Research Library and Cultural Center Broward County Library 954-357-6224 Fax: 954-357-6257 E-mail: dhannibal@browardlibrary.org African-American Research Library and Cultural Center Broward County Library 2650 Sistrunk Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33311 From: Vinik, Steve Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2015 11:28 AM To: Hannibal, Desmond Subject: Black Male Academic Achievement Gap is Subject of Scholarly Book Talk African-American Research Library & Cultural Center 2650 Sistrunk Blvd., Fort Lauderdale, FL 33311 Welcome Desk: 954-357-6210 Date: November 4, 2015 Contact: Steve Vinik, 954-357-6190, svinik@broward.org Black Male Academic Achievement Gap is Subject of Book Talk BROWARD COUNTY, FL ? On Saturday, November 21, 2015 from 1 to 5:30PM, academic author Paul C. Mocombe will discuss his book on the achievement gap in Black Urban America and the United Kingdom?Jesus and the Streets, co-written with Carol Tomlin and Victoria Showunmi. The book talk will be held at the African-American Research Library and Cultural Center (AARLCC), 2650 Sistrunk Blvd., Fort Lauderdale. The subtitle of Jesus and the Streets is: The Loci of Causality for the Intra-Racial Gender Academic Achievement Gap in Black Urban America and the United Kingdom. In this book, the authors take opposition to other, popular theories of why black males do poorly in academics. The authors note that urban black males in the United States and United Kingdom achieve their status, social mobility and economic gain on the streets and from participating in athletics and entertainment, while black females achieve their status in the black church and through education. Says the author, ?Jesus and the Streets offers a more appropriate structural Marxian hermeneutical framework for contextualizing, conceptualizing, and evaluating the locus of causality for the black male/female intra-racial gender academic achievement gap in the United States of America and the United Kingdom.? The African-American Research Library and Cultural Center is located at 2650 Sistrunk Blvd., Fort Lauderdale, FL 33311. Call the Welcome Desk at 954-357-6210. For more information about Broward County Libraries, visit broward.org/library. Steve Vinik, Programming/Exhibits African-American Research Library and Cultural Center 2650 Sistrunk Blvd., Fort Lauderdale, FL 33311 954-357-6190 Fax: 954-357-6257 www.broward.org/library Virtual Tour of AARLCC Under Florida law, most e-mail messages to or from Broward County employees or officials are public records, available to any person upon request, absent an exemption. Therefore, any e-mail message to or from the County, inclusive of e-mail addresses contained therein, may be subject to public disclosure. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26220 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151104/b5f4ef4a/attachment.jpg From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Nov 4 12:39:35 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 12:39:35 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: 4 experiencing fans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <563a6d25.899c420a.ee9db.ffff840f@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- From: "Larry Purss" Sent: ?2015-?11-?04 7:57 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] 4 experiencing fans Further comments of Vasiliuk The new psychology is an active, understanding, humanitarian psychology THAT *incarnates* a new SUBJECT MATTER *as* a LIVING THOU. This subject matter which is now coming into formation in Russia since the 1980's. I am *marking* this concept [subject matter] that is prior to subjectivity as the *space of play* [or situation] The KEY is living experience *AND* silence. [prayer as a way of marking silence as this OPEN SPACE. On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 11:40 PM, Larry Purss wrote: Mike, I access the 2nd article by Vasilyuk but I am curious that there is a silence concerning the focus on suffering and where experience ends prayer begins. This place of mystery after the suffering of having *fallen away from ... [and] now returning to the source. Hamlet and Ophelia AS symbolic incarnations of the *mythic* narrative. THIS neo-Platonic mytheme which streams through Western ways of *addressing* suffering through SILENCE. In the beginning is the word is better understood as *in the beginning was the 1st order word*. The article by Kym Maclaren on this 1st order word which has its genesis in silence [the gap or *ma*]. The KEY is *prayer* as answer to suffering. THIS is the *open space* of silence. The open space of the 1st order word which is being born in this *situation* The 1st order word is INHERENT within this situation [this space of play]. I suggest we take Vasilyuk AT *his word* and *hear* what he is saying here. Why the *silence*?? On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:48 PM, mike cole wrote: Those interested in the later work of Feodor Vasiliuk on perezhivanie/experiencing, here is new material free. http://www.tandfonline.com/author/Vasilyuk%2C+F mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From rolfsteier@gmail.com Thu Nov 5 05:09:39 2015 From: rolfsteier@gmail.com (Rolf Steier) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 14:09:39 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] PhD Position, University of Oslo Message-ID: The available PhD position will be connected to the theme *User perspectives and cultural citizenship. *Research in this theme will study how diverse participatory models facilitate new knowledge practices when collections, archives and databases are opened to the public. Contrasting cases are planned for the doctoral study, in the domains of biodiversity-citizen science and narrative archives-collective memory, respectively. The PhD candidate will work with a team of senior researchers, programmers, and experts from science and cultural heritage organizations to develop and analyze innovative designs for user participation in cultural heritage databases and archives. The objective is to better understand the implications of user participation in expert knowledge systems for policy and practice in the cultural sector. Contact Palmyre Pierroux (palmyre.pierroux@iped.uio.no) for more information. Announcement here: http://www.finn.no/finn/job/fulltime/object?finnkode=66766518 From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Nov 5 16:17:24 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:17:24 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] CoExperiencing as a Philosophy of Practice. Message-ID: Vasilyuk is developing the *philosophy of Practice* as a psychotechnical *system*. He says in his historical outline of the different *basic foundations* on which psychology has relied [from suggestibility to *becoming aware* to *emancipation* to reliance on learning to reliance on experiencing to the current reliance on experiencing [as existential/humanistic] which is intersecting with todays reliance on productively producing internal psychological transformations oriented to enriching the meaning of being. Vasilyuk says the task exploring the changing reliances of psychology as a practice is not to describe the *factual* history of psychology and the reliances of psychotherapy but to elicit the logic of history. In other words to *listen* to the evolving IMPLICIT plot that gives meaning and direction to the subsequent acts of the development of psychology. (page 11) One of the key elements Vasilyuk identifies is the concept of *cultural mediation of experiences*. He says: Historically cumulative experiencings with standard situations crystallize in various SYMBOLIC FORMS; when a person experiences crises, his consciousness might get connected to these symbolic forms, an so the process of experiencing, without losing its personality-oriented uniqueness, gains ADDITIONAL DEPTH AND PRODUCTIVITY. (page 18). It is this additional depth and productivity as symbolic that Vasilyuk is generating within his evolving implicit *plot* oriented to transforming psychology in order to enrich the meaning of being. This is also the theme Vasilyuk is relying on in his other article *Prayer, Silence, and Psychotherapy*. This is the living symbol of prayer on the boundary of experiencing and silence/stillness. Here is Vygotsky exploring the *depth* of symbolism in his own words: Ophelia's tragedy [a personification] is exactly LIKE a lyrical accompaniment, that towers over the entire play, which is full of the dreadful torment of INEXPRESSIBILITY, of the most profound dark, mysterious, and SACRED melodies that in some incomprehensible and miraculous way REVEAL AND EMBODY what is most exciting, most allusive, and touchingly important, what is DEEPEST AND DARKEST, but what is most tragic that is OVERCOME and enlightened, and what IS MOST MYSTICAL in the entire play. Thus tragedy turns into PRAYER .... as though with an oblational and expiatory and PRAYERFUL light, it gives religious illumination to the tragedy." (page 61 of Vasilyuk's article.) Vasiliuk then comments: "No matter how much the devotees of Marxist materialism try to conceal Vygotsky's religiosity from themselves and us, it is perfectly obvious that THESE words [LP -1st order words] could only have been written by a person with deep personal EXPERIENCE with prayer." (page 61). To sum up, I am MARKING [for orientation purposes] the concept of *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT of coexperiencing psychotherapy AS philosophy of practice. I believe that the same *symbolic gravity* can be expressed through changing images. The plot of "falling away from* and *returning to* can be expressed in multiple symbols such as turning away from God, turning away from the natural sublime, turning away from one's true authentic self, These images are expressing different *reliances* but are sharing the same symbolic plot as the cultural mediation of experiencing. The IMPLICIT deepening of coexperience that is now emerging in Russia since the 1980's that Vasilyuk is plotting may be implicitly enveloped in this same mytheme of falling away from *the source* and then the return to this *source. The book *The Religious and Romantic Roots of Psychoanalysis* by Suzanne Kirschner has plotted this particular myth flowing through Western ways of experiencing the meaning of being. She is tracing the roots of the emergence of Freudian psychoanalysis but it is the more general philosophy of practice as including this KEY ELEMENT of cultural mediation as deepening coexperiences that I am highlighting. As Vasilyuk says: the task is to LISTEN FOR *the evolving IMPLICIT plot that gives meaning and direction to the subsequent acts of the *development* of psychology [including the KEY symbolic element that *deepens* experience beyond the personal existential. Larry From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Nov 5 17:00:09 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:00:09 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: CoExperiencing as a Philosophy of Practice. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Larry-- Thanks for your continuing explication of your reading of Vasiliuk. Putting aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy for a moment, I am totally behind the delaration that *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT", plus co-experiencing as the necessary condition for that cultural mediation. mike On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Vasilyuk is developing the *philosophy of Practice* as a psychotechnical > *system*. > He says in his historical outline of the different *basic foundations* on > which psychology has relied [from suggestibility to *becoming aware* to > *emancipation* to reliance on learning to reliance on experiencing to the > current reliance on experiencing [as existential/humanistic] which is > intersecting with todays reliance on productively producing internal > psychological transformations oriented to enriching the meaning of being. > > Vasilyuk says the task exploring the changing reliances of psychology as a > practice is not to describe the *factual* history of psychology and the > reliances of psychotherapy but to elicit the logic of history. In other > words to *listen* to the evolving IMPLICIT plot that gives meaning and > direction to the subsequent acts of the development of psychology. (page > 11) > > One of the key elements Vasilyuk identifies is the concept of *cultural > mediation of experiences*. He says: > Historically cumulative experiencings with standard situations crystallize > in various SYMBOLIC FORMS; when a person experiences crises, his > consciousness might get connected to these symbolic forms, an so the > process of experiencing, without losing its personality-oriented > uniqueness, gains ADDITIONAL DEPTH AND PRODUCTIVITY. (page 18). > > It is this additional depth and productivity as symbolic that Vasilyuk is > generating within his evolving implicit *plot* oriented to transforming > psychology in order to enrich the meaning of being. This is also the theme > Vasilyuk is relying on in his other article *Prayer, Silence, and > Psychotherapy*. This is the living symbol of prayer on the boundary of > experiencing and silence/stillness. > > Here is Vygotsky exploring the *depth* of symbolism in his own words: > > Ophelia's tragedy [a personification] is exactly LIKE a lyrical > accompaniment, that towers over the entire play, which is full of the > dreadful torment of INEXPRESSIBILITY, of the most profound dark, > mysterious, and SACRED melodies that in some incomprehensible and > miraculous way REVEAL AND EMBODY what is most exciting, most allusive, and > touchingly important, what is DEEPEST AND DARKEST, but what is most tragic > that is OVERCOME and enlightened, and what IS MOST MYSTICAL in the entire > play. Thus tragedy turns into PRAYER .... as though with an oblational and > expiatory and PRAYERFUL light, it gives religious illumination to the > tragedy." (page 61 of Vasilyuk's article.) > > Vasiliuk then comments: "No matter how much the devotees of Marxist > materialism try to conceal Vygotsky's religiosity from themselves and us, > it is perfectly obvious that THESE words [LP -1st order words] could only > have been written by a person with deep personal EXPERIENCE with prayer." > (page 61). > > To sum up, I am MARKING [for orientation purposes] the concept of > *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT of coexperiencing > psychotherapy AS philosophy of practice. I believe that the same *symbolic > gravity* can be expressed through changing images. The plot of "falling > away from* and *returning to* can be expressed in multiple symbols such > as turning away from God, turning away from the natural sublime, turning > away from one's true authentic self, These images are expressing different > *reliances* but are sharing the same symbolic plot as the cultural > mediation of experiencing. The IMPLICIT deepening of coexperience that is > now emerging in Russia since the 1980's that Vasilyuk is plotting may be > implicitly enveloped in this same mytheme of falling away from *the source* > and then the return to this *source. > > The book *The Religious and Romantic Roots of Psychoanalysis* by Suzanne > Kirschner has plotted this particular myth flowing through Western ways of > experiencing the meaning of being. She is tracing the roots of the > emergence of Freudian psychoanalysis but it is the more general philosophy > of practice as including this KEY ELEMENT of cultural mediation as > deepening coexperiences that I am highlighting. > As Vasilyuk says: the task is to LISTEN FOR *the evolving IMPLICIT > plot that gives meaning and direction to the subsequent acts of the > *development* of psychology [including the KEY symbolic element that > *deepens* experience beyond the personal existential. > > Larry > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Nov 5 19:58:02 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 19:58:02 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: CoExperiencing as a Philosophy of Practice. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, the declaration that cultural mediation [in particular the symbolic level] is a key element can put aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy and turn to Vygotsky's own way of including this symbolic level of coexperiencing. Listen for the implicit movement marking the felt sense of having *fallen away* from a *source* and then finding one's way back to the *source* [and in this return entering *deeper* levels. I am referring to page 62 of Vasiliyuk's article "Prayer Silence, Psychotherapy". Vygotsky is exploring a *deeper* layer for experiencing suffering. Not a hedonistic flight from suffering, not masochistic consolation, not routine platitudes [always a silver lining] but a spiritual sublimation of sorrow. Elevating and deepening into the layer of experiencing the *source* by transforming this suffering by return to the eternal. Vygotsky images his life as *my star* in the heavens *marked* by sorrow. His personal life and his Jewish life *marked* by sorrow. BUT this star is IN THE HEAVENS. So the meaning of suffering [the falling away from the source] is not in fleeing from the suffering but in returning to the *source* [the eternal, the deepest layer of consciousness] . The meaning is *found* in the ELEVATION of suffering, elevtion on the wing OF A PRAYER TO GOD. The transformation of suffering IN GOD. Vygotsky's metaphor is a personal particular *image* expressing a deeply felt layer of experience. But within the particular unique felt image there is a general [not universal] plot [mytheme] that is historically traceable developing symbolic cultural imaginary. The plot can shift what is *source* [God, sublime, the *self*] and this can be historically traced[including the work of experiencing the authentic true *self* in psychology]. Suzanne Kirschner has traced these transformations in this myth from religious origins, transformed within the Romantic movement, and shifting into psychological theories today. The point I am offering is that Vygotsky as Vasilyuk his project was touched by this mytheme. Peirce in his speculative musings, also was pulled into this mytheme. I am not suggesting this plot is fundamental or foundational but the yearning for this plot to be universal envelops and embodies us into this particular myth and is experienced as a deeply felt *truth*. It is only one of the *key elements* but it is a significant one of the keys to the philosophy of practice. The shift to secular themes [such as naturalism] does not change the underlying plot structure but does change the images that *have us*. Vygotsky saw his *star* ELEVATED to the heavens that transforms suffering which is the experience existing within a symbolic truth, On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 5:00 PM, mike cole wrote: > Hi Larry-- > > Thanks for your continuing explication of your reading of Vasiliuk. Putting > aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy for a moment, I am totally behind > the delaration > that *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT", plus > co-experiencing as the necessary condition for that cultural mediation. > > mike > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Vasilyuk is developing the *philosophy of Practice* as a psychotechnical > > *system*. > > He says in his historical outline of the different *basic foundations* on > > which psychology has relied [from suggestibility to *becoming aware* to > > *emancipation* to reliance on learning to reliance on experiencing to > the > > current reliance on experiencing [as existential/humanistic] which is > > intersecting with todays reliance on productively producing internal > > psychological transformations oriented to enriching the meaning of being. > > > > Vasilyuk says the task exploring the changing reliances of psychology as > a > > practice is not to describe the *factual* history of psychology and the > > reliances of psychotherapy but to elicit the logic of history. In other > > words to *listen* to the evolving IMPLICIT plot that gives meaning and > > direction to the subsequent acts of the development of psychology. (page > > 11) > > > > One of the key elements Vasilyuk identifies is the concept of *cultural > > mediation of experiences*. He says: > > Historically cumulative experiencings with standard situations > crystallize > > in various SYMBOLIC FORMS; when a person experiences crises, his > > consciousness might get connected to these symbolic forms, an so the > > process of experiencing, without losing its personality-oriented > > uniqueness, gains ADDITIONAL DEPTH AND PRODUCTIVITY. (page 18). > > > > It is this additional depth and productivity as symbolic that Vasilyuk is > > generating within his evolving implicit *plot* oriented to transforming > > psychology in order to enrich the meaning of being. This is also the > theme > > Vasilyuk is relying on in his other article *Prayer, Silence, and > > Psychotherapy*. This is the living symbol of prayer on the boundary of > > experiencing and silence/stillness. > > > > Here is Vygotsky exploring the *depth* of symbolism in his own words: > > > > Ophelia's tragedy [a personification] is exactly LIKE a lyrical > > accompaniment, that towers over the entire play, which is full of the > > dreadful torment of INEXPRESSIBILITY, of the most profound dark, > > mysterious, and SACRED melodies that in some incomprehensible and > > miraculous way REVEAL AND EMBODY what is most exciting, most allusive, > and > > touchingly important, what is DEEPEST AND DARKEST, but what is most > tragic > > that is OVERCOME and enlightened, and what IS MOST MYSTICAL in the entire > > play. Thus tragedy turns into PRAYER .... as though with an oblational > and > > expiatory and PRAYERFUL light, it gives religious illumination to the > > tragedy." (page 61 of Vasilyuk's article.) > > > > Vasiliuk then comments: "No matter how much the devotees of Marxist > > materialism try to conceal Vygotsky's religiosity from themselves and us, > > it is perfectly obvious that THESE words [LP -1st order words] could > only > > have been written by a person with deep personal EXPERIENCE with prayer." > > (page 61). > > > > To sum up, I am MARKING [for orientation purposes] the concept of > > *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT of > coexperiencing > > psychotherapy AS philosophy of practice. I believe that the same > *symbolic > > gravity* can be expressed through changing images. The plot of "falling > > away from* and *returning to* can be expressed in multiple symbols such > > as turning away from God, turning away from the natural sublime, turning > > away from one's true authentic self, These images are expressing > different > > *reliances* but are sharing the same symbolic plot as the cultural > > mediation of experiencing. The IMPLICIT deepening of coexperience that is > > now emerging in Russia since the 1980's that Vasilyuk is plotting may be > > implicitly enveloped in this same mytheme of falling away from *the > source* > > and then the return to this *source. > > > > The book *The Religious and Romantic Roots of Psychoanalysis* by Suzanne > > Kirschner has plotted this particular myth flowing through Western ways > of > > experiencing the meaning of being. She is tracing the roots of the > > emergence of Freudian psychoanalysis but it is the more general > philosophy > > of practice as including this KEY ELEMENT of cultural mediation as > > deepening coexperiences that I am highlighting. > > As Vasilyuk says: the task is to LISTEN FOR *the evolving IMPLICIT > > plot that gives meaning and direction to the subsequent acts of the > > *development* of psychology [including the KEY symbolic element that > > *deepens* experience beyond the personal existential. > > > > Larry > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Nov 6 15:03:13 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 15:03:13 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: CoExperiencing as a Philosophy of Practice. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought I would add the last paragraph of Alex Kozulin's review of Vasiliyuk's book. By choosing the literary model of human experiencing, Vasilyuk affirms his adherence to the humanistic, rather than scientific approach to human psychology. His work can also be seen as a blueprint for the future convergence of humanistic psychology with Vygotsky?s cultural-historical theory of human development . This premonition that some new convergence is on the horizon. The coming intersection forming a hybrid character. Do others agree that we may be moving in the direction of a *literary model*? The discussion of White's narrative approach [using Bruner's notion of scaffolding] may be an example. Vasilyuk's key understanding as expressed in his concept of consciousness that has two essential aspects [and their relations] *stratigraphy* as layered registers of depth or height. Each *layer* is a life-world. *structure* of the smallest molecule as unit of consciousness IS a *mental image* A mental image having the structure of the two magnetic poles and the dynamic of consciousness moving within this dynamic *image* like the flow of plasma. Depth of layers AND mental images interact generating consciousness. Vasilyuk's philosophy of practice as 1st order word that is originating within the liminal spaces on the boundaries OF humanistic THEORY and cultural historical THEORY of human development. Consciousness as the originating site of meaning-GENERATION forming within co-experiencing *situations*. In other words situated consciousness as working experience. This is a fragment but does express a *tone* On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:58 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Mike, the declaration that cultural mediation [in particular the symbolic > level] is a key element can put aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy > and turn to Vygotsky's own way of including this symbolic level of > coexperiencing. Listen for the implicit movement marking the felt sense of > having *fallen away* from a *source* and then finding one's way back to the > *source* [and in this return entering *deeper* levels. I am referring to > page 62 of Vasiliyuk's article "Prayer Silence, Psychotherapy". > > Vygotsky is exploring a *deeper* layer for experiencing suffering. Not a > hedonistic flight from suffering, not masochistic consolation, not routine > platitudes [always a silver lining] but a spiritual sublimation of sorrow. > Elevating and deepening into the layer of experiencing the *source* by > transforming this suffering by return to the eternal. > Vygotsky images his life as *my star* in the heavens *marked* by sorrow. > His personal life and his Jewish life *marked* by sorrow. BUT this star is > IN THE HEAVENS. So the meaning of suffering [the falling away from the > source] is not in fleeing from the suffering but in returning to the > *source* [the eternal, the deepest layer of consciousness] . The meaning is > *found* in the ELEVATION of suffering, elevtion on the wing OF A PRAYER TO > GOD. The transformation of suffering IN GOD. > > Vygotsky's metaphor is a personal particular *image* expressing a deeply > felt layer of experience. But within the particular unique felt image there > is a general [not universal] plot [mytheme] that is historically > traceable developing symbolic cultural imaginary. > > The plot can shift what is *source* [God, sublime, the *self*] and this > can be historically traced[including the work of experiencing the authentic > true *self* in psychology]. > > Suzanne Kirschner has traced these transformations in this myth from > religious origins, transformed within the Romantic movement, and shifting > into psychological theories today. > > The point I am offering is that Vygotsky as Vasilyuk his project was > touched by this mytheme. Peirce in his speculative musings, also was pulled > into this mytheme. > > I am not suggesting this plot is fundamental or foundational but the > yearning for this plot to be universal envelops and embodies us into this > particular myth and is experienced as a deeply felt *truth*. It is only one > of the *key elements* but it is a significant one of the keys to the > philosophy of practice. > The shift to secular themes [such as naturalism] does not change the > underlying plot structure but does change the images that *have us*. > Vygotsky saw his *star* ELEVATED to the heavens that transforms suffering > which is the experience existing within a symbolic truth, > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 5:00 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Hi Larry-- >> >> Thanks for your continuing explication of your reading of Vasiliuk. >> Putting >> aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy for a moment, I am totally behind >> the delaration >> that *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT", plus >> co-experiencing as the necessary condition for that cultural mediation. >> >> mike >> >> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >> >> > Vasilyuk is developing the *philosophy of Practice* as a psychotechnical >> > *system*. >> > He says in his historical outline of the different *basic foundations* >> on >> > which psychology has relied [from suggestibility to *becoming aware* to >> > *emancipation* to reliance on learning to reliance on experiencing to >> the >> > current reliance on experiencing [as existential/humanistic] which is >> > intersecting with todays reliance on productively producing internal >> > psychological transformations oriented to enriching the meaning of >> being. >> > >> > Vasilyuk says the task exploring the changing reliances of psychology >> as a >> > practice is not to describe the *factual* history of psychology and the >> > reliances of psychotherapy but to elicit the logic of history. In other >> > words to *listen* to the evolving IMPLICIT plot that gives meaning and >> > direction to the subsequent acts of the development of psychology. (page >> > 11) >> > >> > One of the key elements Vasilyuk identifies is the concept of *cultural >> > mediation of experiences*. He says: >> > Historically cumulative experiencings with standard situations >> crystallize >> > in various SYMBOLIC FORMS; when a person experiences crises, his >> > consciousness might get connected to these symbolic forms, an so the >> > process of experiencing, without losing its personality-oriented >> > uniqueness, gains ADDITIONAL DEPTH AND PRODUCTIVITY. (page 18). >> > >> > It is this additional depth and productivity as symbolic that Vasilyuk >> is >> > generating within his evolving implicit *plot* oriented to transforming >> > psychology in order to enrich the meaning of being. This is also the >> theme >> > Vasilyuk is relying on in his other article *Prayer, Silence, and >> > Psychotherapy*. This is the living symbol of prayer on the boundary of >> > experiencing and silence/stillness. >> > >> > Here is Vygotsky exploring the *depth* of symbolism in his own words: >> > >> > Ophelia's tragedy [a personification] is exactly LIKE a lyrical >> > accompaniment, that towers over the entire play, which is full of the >> > dreadful torment of INEXPRESSIBILITY, of the most profound dark, >> > mysterious, and SACRED melodies that in some incomprehensible and >> > miraculous way REVEAL AND EMBODY what is most exciting, most allusive, >> and >> > touchingly important, what is DEEPEST AND DARKEST, but what is most >> tragic >> > that is OVERCOME and enlightened, and what IS MOST MYSTICAL in the >> entire >> > play. Thus tragedy turns into PRAYER .... as though with an oblational >> and >> > expiatory and PRAYERFUL light, it gives religious illumination to the >> > tragedy." (page 61 of Vasilyuk's article.) >> > >> > Vasiliuk then comments: "No matter how much the devotees of Marxist >> > materialism try to conceal Vygotsky's religiosity from themselves and >> us, >> > it is perfectly obvious that THESE words [LP -1st order words] could >> only >> > have been written by a person with deep personal EXPERIENCE with >> prayer." >> > (page 61). >> > >> > To sum up, I am MARKING [for orientation purposes] the concept of >> > *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT of >> coexperiencing >> > psychotherapy AS philosophy of practice. I believe that the same >> *symbolic >> > gravity* can be expressed through changing images. The plot of "falling >> > away from* and *returning to* can be expressed in multiple symbols such >> > as turning away from God, turning away from the natural sublime, turning >> > away from one's true authentic self, These images are expressing >> different >> > *reliances* but are sharing the same symbolic plot as the cultural >> > mediation of experiencing. The IMPLICIT deepening of coexperience that >> is >> > now emerging in Russia since the 1980's that Vasilyuk is plotting may be >> > implicitly enveloped in this same mytheme of falling away from *the >> source* >> > and then the return to this *source. >> > >> > The book *The Religious and Romantic Roots of Psychoanalysis* by Suzanne >> > Kirschner has plotted this particular myth flowing through Western ways >> of >> > experiencing the meaning of being. She is tracing the roots of the >> > emergence of Freudian psychoanalysis but it is the more general >> philosophy >> > of practice as including this KEY ELEMENT of cultural mediation as >> > deepening coexperiences that I am highlighting. >> > As Vasilyuk says: the task is to LISTEN FOR *the evolving IMPLICIT >> > plot that gives meaning and direction to the subsequent acts of the >> > *development* of psychology [including the KEY symbolic element that >> > *deepens* experience beyond the personal existential. >> > >> > Larry >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Nov 6 17:15:27 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 17:15:27 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: CoExperiencing as a Philosophy of Practice. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Larry, I strongly believe that there is a convergence of humanities and social/behavioral sciences going on as one thread of academic discourse congenial to CHAT. A real good location for pursuing it is. The Comm dept at UCSD, if we add the arts as part off the mix. That's my story at least. :-) Mike On Friday, November 6, 2015, Larry Purss wrote: > I thought I would add the last paragraph of Alex Kozulin's review of > Vasiliyuk's book. > > By choosing the literary model of human experiencing, Vasilyuk affirms his > adherence to the humanistic, rather than scientific approach to human > psychology. His work can also be seen as a blueprint for the future > convergence of humanistic psychology with Vygotsky?s cultural-historical > theory of human development . > > This premonition that some new convergence is on the horizon. The coming > intersection forming a hybrid character. > Do others agree that we may be moving in the direction of a *literary > model*? > The discussion of White's narrative approach [using Bruner's notion of > scaffolding] may be an example. > > Vasilyuk's key understanding as expressed in his concept of consciousness > that has two essential aspects [and their relations] > *stratigraphy* as layered registers of depth or height. Each *layer* is a > life-world. > *structure* of the smallest molecule as unit of consciousness IS a *mental > image* A mental image having the structure of the two magnetic poles and > the dynamic of consciousness moving within this dynamic *image* like the > flow of plasma. Depth of layers AND mental images interact generating > consciousness. > > Vasilyuk's philosophy of practice as 1st order word that is originating > within the liminal spaces on the boundaries OF humanistic THEORY and > cultural historical THEORY of human development. > > Consciousness as the originating site of meaning-GENERATION forming within > co-experiencing *situations*. In other words situated consciousness as > working experience. > > This is a fragment but does express a *tone* > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:58 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > Mike, the declaration that cultural mediation [in particular the symbolic > > level] is a key element can put aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy > > and turn to Vygotsky's own way of including this symbolic level of > > coexperiencing. Listen for the implicit movement marking the felt sense > of > > having *fallen away* from a *source* and then finding one's way back to > the > > *source* [and in this return entering *deeper* levels. I am referring to > > page 62 of Vasiliyuk's article "Prayer Silence, Psychotherapy". > > > > Vygotsky is exploring a *deeper* layer for experiencing suffering. Not a > > hedonistic flight from suffering, not masochistic consolation, not > routine > > platitudes [always a silver lining] but a spiritual sublimation of > sorrow. > > Elevating and deepening into the layer of experiencing the *source* by > > transforming this suffering by return to the eternal. > > Vygotsky images his life as *my star* in the heavens *marked* by sorrow. > > His personal life and his Jewish life *marked* by sorrow. BUT this star > is > > IN THE HEAVENS. So the meaning of suffering [the falling away from the > > source] is not in fleeing from the suffering but in returning to the > > *source* [the eternal, the deepest layer of consciousness] . The meaning > is > > *found* in the ELEVATION of suffering, elevtion on the wing OF A PRAYER > TO > > GOD. The transformation of suffering IN GOD. > > > > Vygotsky's metaphor is a personal particular *image* expressing a deeply > > felt layer of experience. But within the particular unique felt image > there > > is a general [not universal] plot [mytheme] that is historically > > traceable developing symbolic cultural imaginary. > > > > The plot can shift what is *source* [God, sublime, the *self*] and this > > can be historically traced[including the work of experiencing the > authentic > > true *self* in psychology]. > > > > Suzanne Kirschner has traced these transformations in this myth from > > religious origins, transformed within the Romantic movement, and shifting > > into psychological theories today. > > > > The point I am offering is that Vygotsky as Vasilyuk his project was > > touched by this mytheme. Peirce in his speculative musings, also was > pulled > > into this mytheme. > > > > I am not suggesting this plot is fundamental or foundational but the > > yearning for this plot to be universal envelops and embodies us into this > > particular myth and is experienced as a deeply felt *truth*. It is only > one > > of the *key elements* but it is a significant one of the keys to the > > philosophy of practice. > > The shift to secular themes [such as naturalism] does not change the > > underlying plot structure but does change the images that *have us*. > > Vygotsky saw his *star* ELEVATED to the heavens that transforms suffering > > which is the experience existing within a symbolic truth, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 5:00 PM, mike cole > > wrote: > > > >> Hi Larry-- > >> > >> Thanks for your continuing explication of your reading of Vasiliuk. > >> Putting > >> aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy for a moment, I am totally behind > >> the delaration > >> that *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT", plus > >> co-experiencing as the necessary condition for that cultural mediation. > >> > >> mike > >> > >> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > >> > >> > Vasilyuk is developing the *philosophy of Practice* as a > psychotechnical > >> > *system*. > >> > He says in his historical outline of the different *basic foundations* > >> on > >> > which psychology has relied [from suggestibility to *becoming aware* > to > >> > *emancipation* to reliance on learning to reliance on experiencing to > >> the > >> > current reliance on experiencing [as existential/humanistic] which is > >> > intersecting with todays reliance on productively producing internal > >> > psychological transformations oriented to enriching the meaning of > >> being. > >> > > >> > Vasilyuk says the task exploring the changing reliances of psychology > >> as a > >> > practice is not to describe the *factual* history of psychology and > the > >> > reliances of psychotherapy but to elicit the logic of history. In > other > >> > words to *listen* to the evolving IMPLICIT plot that gives meaning and > >> > direction to the subsequent acts of the development of psychology. > (page > >> > 11) > >> > > >> > One of the key elements Vasilyuk identifies is the concept of > *cultural > >> > mediation of experiences*. He says: > >> > Historically cumulative experiencings with standard situations > >> crystallize > >> > in various SYMBOLIC FORMS; when a person experiences crises, his > >> > consciousness might get connected to these symbolic forms, an so the > >> > process of experiencing, without losing its personality-oriented > >> > uniqueness, gains ADDITIONAL DEPTH AND PRODUCTIVITY. (page 18). > >> > > >> > It is this additional depth and productivity as symbolic that Vasilyuk > >> is > >> > generating within his evolving implicit *plot* oriented to > transforming > >> > psychology in order to enrich the meaning of being. This is also the > >> theme > >> > Vasilyuk is relying on in his other article *Prayer, Silence, and > >> > Psychotherapy*. This is the living symbol of prayer on the boundary of > >> > experiencing and silence/stillness. > >> > > >> > Here is Vygotsky exploring the *depth* of symbolism in his own words: > >> > > >> > Ophelia's tragedy [a personification] is exactly LIKE a lyrical > >> > accompaniment, that towers over the entire play, which is full of the > >> > dreadful torment of INEXPRESSIBILITY, of the most profound dark, > >> > mysterious, and SACRED melodies that in some incomprehensible and > >> > miraculous way REVEAL AND EMBODY what is most exciting, most allusive, > >> and > >> > touchingly important, what is DEEPEST AND DARKEST, but what is most > >> tragic > >> > that is OVERCOME and enlightened, and what IS MOST MYSTICAL in the > >> entire > >> > play. Thus tragedy turns into PRAYER .... as though with an oblational > >> and > >> > expiatory and PRAYERFUL light, it gives religious illumination to the > >> > tragedy." (page 61 of Vasilyuk's article.) > >> > > >> > Vasiliuk then comments: "No matter how much the devotees of Marxist > >> > materialism try to conceal Vygotsky's religiosity from themselves and > >> us, > >> > it is perfectly obvious that THESE words [LP -1st order words] could > >> only > >> > have been written by a person with deep personal EXPERIENCE with > >> prayer." > >> > (page 61). > >> > > >> > To sum up, I am MARKING [for orientation purposes] the concept of > >> > *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT of > >> coexperiencing > >> > psychotherapy AS philosophy of practice. I believe that the same > >> *symbolic > >> > gravity* can be expressed through changing images. The plot of > "falling > >> > away from* and *returning to* can be expressed in multiple symbols > such > >> > as turning away from God, turning away from the natural sublime, > turning > >> > away from one's true authentic self, These images are expressing > >> different > >> > *reliances* but are sharing the same symbolic plot as the cultural > >> > mediation of experiencing. The IMPLICIT deepening of coexperience that > >> is > >> > now emerging in Russia since the 1980's that Vasilyuk is plotting may > be > >> > implicitly enveloped in this same mytheme of falling away from *the > >> source* > >> > and then the return to this *source. > >> > > >> > The book *The Religious and Romantic Roots of Psychoanalysis* by > Suzanne > >> > Kirschner has plotted this particular myth flowing through Western > ways > >> of > >> > experiencing the meaning of being. She is tracing the roots of the > >> > emergence of Freudian psychoanalysis but it is the more general > >> philosophy > >> > of practice as including this KEY ELEMENT of cultural mediation as > >> > deepening coexperiences that I am highlighting. > >> > As Vasilyuk says: the task is to LISTEN FOR *the evolving IMPLICIT > >> > plot that gives meaning and direction to the subsequent acts of the > >> > *development* of psychology [including the KEY symbolic element that > >> > *deepens* experience beyond the personal existential. > >> > > >> > Larry > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >> > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From ablunden@mira.net Fri Nov 6 18:04:18 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2015 13:04:18 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: CoExperiencing as a Philosophy of Practice. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <563D5C22.3020802@mira.net> and I think there is a dire need for such a convergence as well. One of the contributing factors to the anti-science currents which can lead to great medical, political and social problems is antipathy to one particular, dominant *style* of science, and I think entanglement between science and the arts promotes a broader feel for different styles of science. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 7/11/2015 12:15 PM, mike cole wrote: > Larry, I strongly believe that there is a convergence of humanities and > social/behavioral sciences going on as one thread of academic discourse > congenial to CHAT. A real good location for pursuing it is. The Comm dept > at UCSD, if we add the arts as part off the mix. > That's my story at least. :-) > > Mike > > On Friday, November 6, 2015, Larry Purss wrote: > >> I thought I would add the last paragraph of Alex Kozulin's review of >> Vasiliyuk's book. >> >> By choosing the literary model of human experiencing, Vasilyuk affirms his >> adherence to the humanistic, rather than scientific approach to human >> psychology. His work can also be seen as a blueprint for the future >> convergence of humanistic psychology with Vygotsky?s cultural-historical >> theory of human development . >> >> This premonition that some new convergence is on the horizon. The coming >> intersection forming a hybrid character. >> Do others agree that we may be moving in the direction of a *literary >> model*? >> The discussion of White's narrative approach [using Bruner's notion of >> scaffolding] may be an example. >> >> Vasilyuk's key understanding as expressed in his concept of consciousness >> that has two essential aspects [and their relations] >> *stratigraphy* as layered registers of depth or height. Each *layer* is a >> life-world. >> *structure* of the smallest molecule as unit of consciousness IS a *mental >> image* A mental image having the structure of the two magnetic poles and >> the dynamic of consciousness moving within this dynamic *image* like the >> flow of plasma. Depth of layers AND mental images interact generating >> consciousness. >> >> Vasilyuk's philosophy of practice as 1st order word that is originating >> within the liminal spaces on the boundaries OF humanistic THEORY and >> cultural historical THEORY of human development. >> >> Consciousness as the originating site of meaning-GENERATION forming within >> co-experiencing *situations*. In other words situated consciousness as >> working experience. >> >> This is a fragment but does express a *tone* >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:58 PM, Larry Purss > > wrote: >> >>> Mike, the declaration that cultural mediation [in particular the symbolic >>> level] is a key element can put aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy >>> and turn to Vygotsky's own way of including this symbolic level of >>> coexperiencing. Listen for the implicit movement marking the felt sense >> of >>> having *fallen away* from a *source* and then finding one's way back to >> the >>> *source* [and in this return entering *deeper* levels. I am referring to >>> page 62 of Vasiliyuk's article "Prayer Silence, Psychotherapy". >>> >>> Vygotsky is exploring a *deeper* layer for experiencing suffering. Not a >>> hedonistic flight from suffering, not masochistic consolation, not >> routine >>> platitudes [always a silver lining] but a spiritual sublimation of >> sorrow. >>> Elevating and deepening into the layer of experiencing the *source* by >>> transforming this suffering by return to the eternal. >>> Vygotsky images his life as *my star* in the heavens *marked* by sorrow. >>> His personal life and his Jewish life *marked* by sorrow. BUT this star >> is >>> IN THE HEAVENS. So the meaning of suffering [the falling away from the >>> source] is not in fleeing from the suffering but in returning to the >>> *source* [the eternal, the deepest layer of consciousness] . The meaning >> is >>> *found* in the ELEVATION of suffering, elevtion on the wing OF A PRAYER >> TO >>> GOD. The transformation of suffering IN GOD. >>> >>> Vygotsky's metaphor is a personal particular *image* expressing a deeply >>> felt layer of experience. But within the particular unique felt image >> there >>> is a general [not universal] plot [mytheme] that is historically >>> traceable developing symbolic cultural imaginary. >>> >>> The plot can shift what is *source* [God, sublime, the *self*] and this >>> can be historically traced[including the work of experiencing the >> authentic >>> true *self* in psychology]. >>> >>> Suzanne Kirschner has traced these transformations in this myth from >>> religious origins, transformed within the Romantic movement, and shifting >>> into psychological theories today. >>> >>> The point I am offering is that Vygotsky as Vasilyuk his project was >>> touched by this mytheme. Peirce in his speculative musings, also was >> pulled >>> into this mytheme. >>> >>> I am not suggesting this plot is fundamental or foundational but the >>> yearning for this plot to be universal envelops and embodies us into this >>> particular myth and is experienced as a deeply felt *truth*. It is only >> one >>> of the *key elements* but it is a significant one of the keys to the >>> philosophy of practice. >>> The shift to secular themes [such as naturalism] does not change the >>> underlying plot structure but does change the images that *have us*. >>> Vygotsky saw his *star* ELEVATED to the heavens that transforms suffering >>> which is the experience existing within a symbolic truth, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 5:00 PM, mike cole > >> wrote: >>>> Hi Larry-- >>>> >>>> Thanks for your continuing explication of your reading of Vasiliuk. >>>> Putting >>>> aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy for a moment, I am totally behind >>>> the delaration >>>> that *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT", plus >>>> co-experiencing as the necessary condition for that cultural mediation. >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Larry Purss > > wrote: >>>>> Vasilyuk is developing the *philosophy of Practice* as a >> psychotechnical >>>>> *system*. >>>>> He says in his historical outline of the different *basic foundations* >>>> on >>>>> which psychology has relied [from suggestibility to *becoming aware* >> to >>>>> *emancipation* to reliance on learning to reliance on experiencing to >>>> the >>>>> current reliance on experiencing [as existential/humanistic] which is >>>>> intersecting with todays reliance on productively producing internal >>>>> psychological transformations oriented to enriching the meaning of >>>> being. >>>>> Vasilyuk says the task exploring the changing reliances of psychology >>>> as a >>>>> practice is not to describe the *factual* history of psychology and >> the >>>>> reliances of psychotherapy but to elicit the logic of history. In >> other >>>>> words to *listen* to the evolving IMPLICIT plot that gives meaning and >>>>> direction to the subsequent acts of the development of psychology. >> (page >>>>> 11) >>>>> >>>>> One of the key elements Vasilyuk identifies is the concept of >> *cultural >>>>> mediation of experiences*. He says: >>>>> Historically cumulative experiencings with standard situations >>>> crystallize >>>>> in various SYMBOLIC FORMS; when a person experiences crises, his >>>>> consciousness might get connected to these symbolic forms, an so the >>>>> process of experiencing, without losing its personality-oriented >>>>> uniqueness, gains ADDITIONAL DEPTH AND PRODUCTIVITY. (page 18). >>>>> >>>>> It is this additional depth and productivity as symbolic that Vasilyuk >>>> is >>>>> generating within his evolving implicit *plot* oriented to >> transforming >>>>> psychology in order to enrich the meaning of being. This is also the >>>> theme >>>>> Vasilyuk is relying on in his other article *Prayer, Silence, and >>>>> Psychotherapy*. This is the living symbol of prayer on the boundary of >>>>> experiencing and silence/stillness. >>>>> >>>>> Here is Vygotsky exploring the *depth* of symbolism in his own words: >>>>> >>>>> Ophelia's tragedy [a personification] is exactly LIKE a lyrical >>>>> accompaniment, that towers over the entire play, which is full of the >>>>> dreadful torment of INEXPRESSIBILITY, of the most profound dark, >>>>> mysterious, and SACRED melodies that in some incomprehensible and >>>>> miraculous way REVEAL AND EMBODY what is most exciting, most allusive, >>>> and >>>>> touchingly important, what is DEEPEST AND DARKEST, but what is most >>>> tragic >>>>> that is OVERCOME and enlightened, and what IS MOST MYSTICAL in the >>>> entire >>>>> play. Thus tragedy turns into PRAYER .... as though with an oblational >>>> and >>>>> expiatory and PRAYERFUL light, it gives religious illumination to the >>>>> tragedy." (page 61 of Vasilyuk's article.) >>>>> >>>>> Vasiliuk then comments: "No matter how much the devotees of Marxist >>>>> materialism try to conceal Vygotsky's religiosity from themselves and >>>> us, >>>>> it is perfectly obvious that THESE words [LP -1st order words] could >>>> only >>>>> have been written by a person with deep personal EXPERIENCE with >>>> prayer." >>>>> (page 61). >>>>> >>>>> To sum up, I am MARKING [for orientation purposes] the concept of >>>>> *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT of >>>> coexperiencing >>>>> psychotherapy AS philosophy of practice. I believe that the same >>>> *symbolic >>>>> gravity* can be expressed through changing images. The plot of >> "falling >>>>> away from* and *returning to* can be expressed in multiple symbols >> such >>>>> as turning away from God, turning away from the natural sublime, >> turning >>>>> away from one's true authentic self, These images are expressing >>>> different >>>>> *reliances* but are sharing the same symbolic plot as the cultural >>>>> mediation of experiencing. The IMPLICIT deepening of coexperience that >>>> is >>>>> now emerging in Russia since the 1980's that Vasilyuk is plotting may >> be >>>>> implicitly enveloped in this same mytheme of falling away from *the >>>> source* >>>>> and then the return to this *source. >>>>> >>>>> The book *The Religious and Romantic Roots of Psychoanalysis* by >> Suzanne >>>>> Kirschner has plotted this particular myth flowing through Western >> ways >>>> of >>>>> experiencing the meaning of being. She is tracing the roots of the >>>>> emergence of Freudian psychoanalysis but it is the more general >>>> philosophy >>>>> of practice as including this KEY ELEMENT of cultural mediation as >>>>> deepening coexperiences that I am highlighting. >>>>> As Vasilyuk says: the task is to LISTEN FOR *the evolving IMPLICIT >>>>> plot that gives meaning and direction to the subsequent acts of the >>>>> *development* of psychology [including the KEY symbolic element that >>>>> *deepens* experience beyond the personal existential. >>>>> >>>>> Larry >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>> >>> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Nov 6 21:41:00 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 21:41:00 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: CoExperiencing as a Philosophy of Practice. In-Reply-To: <563D5C22.3020802@mira.net> References: <563D5C22.3020802@mira.net> Message-ID: To move back to a particular example exploring this hybrid coexperiencing in a liminal place. Vasiliuk on page 32 [of coexperiencing article] is defining what is simultaneously a *topic* and a *subject matter* and an *explanatory model*. Vasiliuk writes: A *problem* must be regarded not as a natural *thing* that the client *has* before and independently of psychotherapy and that he brings in ready-made form to the psychotherapy session. A *problem* is a *symbolic object* that is building up during the psychotherapeutic process ITSELF. It is defined simultaneously as a *topic* that is being dialogically being agreed upon in communication between the client and the psychotherapist , AS a *subject matter* of their joint activity upon that which they are agreeing upon, AND as an *explanatory model* for the client's complaints that they are gaining an agreement on ..." I hear Vasiliuk's voice as marking what Merleau-Ponty conceives of as 1st order dialogue. I marked the word *ITSELF* to highlight this place where the *topic* the *subject matter* and the *explanatory model* con/verge. Moving back to the general this process of convergence is occurring across multiple *subject matters* as philosophy of practice. On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > and I think there is a dire need for such a convergence as well. > One of the contributing factors to the anti-science currents which can > lead to great medical, political and social problems is antipathy to one > particular, dominant *style* of science, and I think entanglement between > science and the arts promotes a broader feel for different styles of > science. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > On 7/11/2015 12:15 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Larry, I strongly believe that there is a convergence of humanities and >> social/behavioral sciences going on as one thread of academic discourse >> congenial to CHAT. A real good location for pursuing it is. The Comm dept >> at UCSD, if we add the arts as part off the mix. >> That's my story at least. :-) >> >> Mike >> >> On Friday, November 6, 2015, Larry Purss wrote: >> >> I thought I would add the last paragraph of Alex Kozulin's review of >>> Vasiliyuk's book. >>> >>> By choosing the literary model of human experiencing, Vasilyuk affirms >>> his >>> adherence to the humanistic, rather than scientific approach to human >>> psychology. His work can also be seen as a blueprint for the future >>> convergence of humanistic psychology with Vygotsky?s cultural-historical >>> theory of human development . >>> >>> This premonition that some new convergence is on the horizon. The coming >>> intersection forming a hybrid character. >>> Do others agree that we may be moving in the direction of a *literary >>> model*? >>> The discussion of White's narrative approach [using Bruner's notion of >>> scaffolding] may be an example. >>> >>> Vasilyuk's key understanding as expressed in his concept of >>> consciousness >>> that has two essential aspects [and their relations] >>> *stratigraphy* as layered registers of depth or height. Each *layer* is a >>> life-world. >>> *structure* of the smallest molecule as unit of consciousness IS a >>> *mental >>> image* A mental image having the structure of the two magnetic poles and >>> the dynamic of consciousness moving within this dynamic *image* like the >>> flow of plasma. Depth of layers AND mental images interact generating >>> consciousness. >>> >>> Vasilyuk's philosophy of practice as 1st order word that is originating >>> within the liminal spaces on the boundaries OF humanistic THEORY and >>> cultural historical THEORY of human development. >>> >>> Consciousness as the originating site of meaning-GENERATION forming >>> within >>> co-experiencing *situations*. In other words situated consciousness as >>> working experience. >>> >>> This is a fragment but does express a *tone* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:58 PM, Larry Purss >> > wrote: >>> >>> Mike, the declaration that cultural mediation [in particular the symbolic >>>> level] is a key element can put aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy >>>> and turn to Vygotsky's own way of including this symbolic level of >>>> coexperiencing. Listen for the implicit movement marking the felt sense >>>> >>> of >>> >>>> having *fallen away* from a *source* and then finding one's way back to >>>> >>> the >>> >>>> *source* [and in this return entering *deeper* levels. I am referring >>>> to >>>> page 62 of Vasiliyuk's article "Prayer Silence, Psychotherapy". >>>> >>>> Vygotsky is exploring a *deeper* layer for experiencing suffering. Not >>>> a >>>> hedonistic flight from suffering, not masochistic consolation, not >>>> >>> routine >>> >>>> platitudes [always a silver lining] but a spiritual sublimation of >>>> >>> sorrow. >>> >>>> Elevating and deepening into the layer of experiencing the *source* by >>>> transforming this suffering by return to the eternal. >>>> Vygotsky images his life as *my star* in the heavens *marked* by sorrow. >>>> His personal life and his Jewish life *marked* by sorrow. BUT this star >>>> >>> is >>> >>>> IN THE HEAVENS. So the meaning of suffering [the falling away from the >>>> source] is not in fleeing from the suffering but in returning to the >>>> *source* [the eternal, the deepest layer of consciousness] . The meaning >>>> >>> is >>> >>>> *found* in the ELEVATION of suffering, elevtion on the wing OF A PRAYER >>>> >>> TO >>> >>>> GOD. The transformation of suffering IN GOD. >>>> >>>> Vygotsky's metaphor is a personal particular *image* expressing a >>>> deeply >>>> felt layer of experience. But within the particular unique felt image >>>> >>> there >>> >>>> is a general [not universal] plot [mytheme] that is historically >>>> traceable developing symbolic cultural imaginary. >>>> >>>> The plot can shift what is *source* [God, sublime, the *self*] and this >>>> can be historically traced[including the work of experiencing the >>>> >>> authentic >>> >>>> true *self* in psychology]. >>>> >>>> Suzanne Kirschner has traced these transformations in this myth from >>>> religious origins, transformed within the Romantic movement, and >>>> shifting >>>> into psychological theories today. >>>> >>>> The point I am offering is that Vygotsky as Vasilyuk his project was >>>> touched by this mytheme. Peirce in his speculative musings, also was >>>> >>> pulled >>> >>>> into this mytheme. >>>> >>>> I am not suggesting this plot is fundamental or foundational but the >>>> yearning for this plot to be universal envelops and embodies us into >>>> this >>>> particular myth and is experienced as a deeply felt *truth*. It is only >>>> >>> one >>> >>>> of the *key elements* but it is a significant one of the keys to the >>>> philosophy of practice. >>>> The shift to secular themes [such as naturalism] does not change the >>>> underlying plot structure but does change the images that *have us*. >>>> Vygotsky saw his *star* ELEVATED to the heavens that transforms >>>> suffering >>>> which is the experience existing within a symbolic truth, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 5:00 PM, mike cole >>> > >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Larry-- >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your continuing explication of your reading of Vasiliuk. >>>>> Putting >>>>> aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy for a moment, I am totally >>>>> behind >>>>> the delaration >>>>> that *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT", plus >>>>> co-experiencing as the necessary condition for that cultural mediation. >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Larry Purss >>>> >>>> > wrote: >>> >>>> Vasilyuk is developing the *philosophy of Practice* as a >>>>>> >>>>> psychotechnical >>> >>>> *system*. >>>>>> He says in his historical outline of the different *basic foundations* >>>>>> >>>>> on >>>>> >>>>>> which psychology has relied [from suggestibility to *becoming aware* >>>>>> >>>>> to >>> >>>> *emancipation* to reliance on learning to reliance on experiencing to >>>>>> >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> current reliance on experiencing [as existential/humanistic] which is >>>>>> intersecting with todays reliance on productively producing internal >>>>>> psychological transformations oriented to enriching the meaning of >>>>>> >>>>> being. >>>>> >>>>>> Vasilyuk says the task exploring the changing reliances of psychology >>>>>> >>>>> as a >>>>> >>>>>> practice is not to describe the *factual* history of psychology and >>>>>> >>>>> the >>> >>>> reliances of psychotherapy but to elicit the logic of history. In >>>>>> >>>>> other >>> >>>> words to *listen* to the evolving IMPLICIT plot that gives meaning and >>>>>> direction to the subsequent acts of the development of psychology. >>>>>> >>>>> (page >>> >>>> 11) >>>>>> >>>>>> One of the key elements Vasilyuk identifies is the concept of >>>>>> >>>>> *cultural >>> >>>> mediation of experiences*. He says: >>>>>> Historically cumulative experiencings with standard situations >>>>>> >>>>> crystallize >>>>> >>>>>> in various SYMBOLIC FORMS; when a person experiences crises, his >>>>>> consciousness might get connected to these symbolic forms, an so the >>>>>> process of experiencing, without losing its personality-oriented >>>>>> uniqueness, gains ADDITIONAL DEPTH AND PRODUCTIVITY. (page 18). >>>>>> >>>>>> It is this additional depth and productivity as symbolic that Vasilyuk >>>>>> >>>>> is >>>>> >>>>>> generating within his evolving implicit *plot* oriented to >>>>>> >>>>> transforming >>> >>>> psychology in order to enrich the meaning of being. This is also the >>>>>> >>>>> theme >>>>> >>>>>> Vasilyuk is relying on in his other article *Prayer, Silence, and >>>>>> Psychotherapy*. This is the living symbol of prayer on the boundary of >>>>>> experiencing and silence/stillness. >>>>>> >>>>>> Here is Vygotsky exploring the *depth* of symbolism in his own words: >>>>>> >>>>>> Ophelia's tragedy [a personification] is exactly LIKE a lyrical >>>>>> accompaniment, that towers over the entire play, which is full of the >>>>>> dreadful torment of INEXPRESSIBILITY, of the most profound dark, >>>>>> mysterious, and SACRED melodies that in some incomprehensible and >>>>>> miraculous way REVEAL AND EMBODY what is most exciting, most allusive, >>>>>> >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>>> touchingly important, what is DEEPEST AND DARKEST, but what is most >>>>>> >>>>> tragic >>>>> >>>>>> that is OVERCOME and enlightened, and what IS MOST MYSTICAL in the >>>>>> >>>>> entire >>>>> >>>>>> play. Thus tragedy turns into PRAYER .... as though with an oblational >>>>>> >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>>> expiatory and PRAYERFUL light, it gives religious illumination to the >>>>>> tragedy." (page 61 of Vasilyuk's article.) >>>>>> >>>>>> Vasiliuk then comments: "No matter how much the devotees of Marxist >>>>>> materialism try to conceal Vygotsky's religiosity from themselves and >>>>>> >>>>> us, >>>>> >>>>>> it is perfectly obvious that THESE words [LP -1st order words] could >>>>>> >>>>> only >>>>> >>>>>> have been written by a person with deep personal EXPERIENCE with >>>>>> >>>>> prayer." >>>>> >>>>>> (page 61). >>>>>> >>>>>> To sum up, I am MARKING [for orientation purposes] the concept of >>>>>> *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT of >>>>>> >>>>> coexperiencing >>>>> >>>>>> psychotherapy AS philosophy of practice. I believe that the same >>>>>> >>>>> *symbolic >>>>> >>>>>> gravity* can be expressed through changing images. The plot of >>>>>> >>>>> "falling >>> >>>> away from* and *returning to* can be expressed in multiple symbols >>>>>> >>>>> such >>> >>>> as turning away from God, turning away from the natural sublime, >>>>>> >>>>> turning >>> >>>> away from one's true authentic self, These images are expressing >>>>>> >>>>> different >>>>> >>>>>> *reliances* but are sharing the same symbolic plot as the cultural >>>>>> mediation of experiencing. The IMPLICIT deepening of coexperience that >>>>>> >>>>> is >>>>> >>>>>> now emerging in Russia since the 1980's that Vasilyuk is plotting may >>>>>> >>>>> be >>> >>>> implicitly enveloped in this same mytheme of falling away from *the >>>>>> >>>>> source* >>>>> >>>>>> and then the return to this *source. >>>>>> >>>>>> The book *The Religious and Romantic Roots of Psychoanalysis* by >>>>>> >>>>> Suzanne >>> >>>> Kirschner has plotted this particular myth flowing through Western >>>>>> >>>>> ways >>> >>>> of >>>>> >>>>>> experiencing the meaning of being. She is tracing the roots of the >>>>>> emergence of Freudian psychoanalysis but it is the more general >>>>>> >>>>> philosophy >>>>> >>>>>> of practice as including this KEY ELEMENT of cultural mediation as >>>>>> deepening coexperiences that I am highlighting. >>>>>> As Vasilyuk says: the task is to LISTEN FOR *the evolving IMPLICIT >>>>>> plot that gives meaning and direction to the subsequent acts of the >>>>>> *development* of psychology [including the KEY symbolic element that >>>>>> *deepens* experience beyond the personal existential. >>>>>> >>>>>> Larry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Nov 7 09:04:59 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 09:04:59 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: CoExperiencing as a Philosophy of Practice. In-Reply-To: References: <563D5C22.3020802@mira.net> Message-ID: I hope my sending reports on my trying to understand the *work of experiencing* and the *work of coexperiencing* may be helpful as a particular aspect of CHAT. I am finding Vasiliuk's way of com/posing his understanding is a way in to multiple layers of psychology. On page 33 he has a section exploring *the Semiotics of Psychotherapeutic Situation and the Psychotechnics of Understanding*. In this section he outlines an orientation that is the opposite of *manipulation* [understanding IN ORDER TO do something - influence, cure, correction]. Vasiliuk is marking an approach that develops a particular type of *equipment* [equipped with psychotherapeutic *schemes* IN ORDER TO *respond* to the client's entire, complex, dynamic streams of *symbolization*. This focus on *response* as coexperiencing understanding that is the opposite of *manipulation*. THIS response style is Vasiliuk's psychotherapeutic *reliance* meaning the focus of the work of experiencing and coexperiencing. In Vasiliuk's own words: "In putting THIS reliance [topic, subject matter -LP] into practice, the therapist does everything to understand the patient and to give him THIS understanding rather than try to understand in order to do something - influence, cure, or correct. Psychotherapeutic understanding CREATES an intensified dialogic FIELD that, in accordance with the "silence principle" (Kop'ev, 1992) appeals to the patients freddom - his freedom of expression, of will, of self-awareness" I believe THIS reliance [as a type of understanding] within the work of coexperiencing [AND SILENCE] is the layer of consciousness that I am marking and amplifying. THIS reliance is the opposite of *manipulation* and *incarnates* a different type of *situation* [field] Larry On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 9:41 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > To move back to a particular example exploring this hybrid coexperiencing > in a liminal place. > Vasiliuk on page 32 [of coexperiencing article] is defining what is > simultaneously a *topic* and a *subject matter* and an *explanatory model*. > > Vasiliuk writes: > > A *problem* must be regarded not as a natural *thing* that the client > *has* before and independently of psychotherapy and that he brings in > ready-made form to the psychotherapy session. A *problem* is a *symbolic > object* that is building up during the psychotherapeutic process ITSELF. > It is defined simultaneously as a *topic* that is being dialogically being > agreed upon in communication between the client and the psychotherapist , > AS a *subject matter* of their joint activity upon that which they are > agreeing upon, AND as an *explanatory model* for the client's complaints > that they are gaining an agreement on ..." > > I hear Vasiliuk's voice as marking what Merleau-Ponty conceives of as 1st > order dialogue. I marked the word *ITSELF* to highlight this place where > the *topic* the *subject matter* and the *explanatory model* con/verge. > > Moving back to the general this process of convergence is occurring across > multiple *subject matters* as philosophy of practice. > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> and I think there is a dire need for such a convergence as well. >> One of the contributing factors to the anti-science currents which can >> lead to great medical, political and social problems is antipathy to one >> particular, dominant *style* of science, and I think entanglement between >> science and the arts promotes a broader feel for different styles of >> science. >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> On 7/11/2015 12:15 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Larry, I strongly believe that there is a convergence of humanities and >>> social/behavioral sciences going on as one thread of academic discourse >>> congenial to CHAT. A real good location for pursuing it is. The Comm dept >>> at UCSD, if we add the arts as part off the mix. >>> That's my story at least. :-) >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> On Friday, November 6, 2015, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>> I thought I would add the last paragraph of Alex Kozulin's review of >>>> Vasiliyuk's book. >>>> >>>> By choosing the literary model of human experiencing, Vasilyuk affirms >>>> his >>>> adherence to the humanistic, rather than scientific approach to human >>>> psychology. His work can also be seen as a blueprint for the future >>>> convergence of humanistic psychology with Vygotsky?s cultural-historical >>>> theory of human development . >>>> >>>> This premonition that some new convergence is on the horizon. The >>>> coming >>>> intersection forming a hybrid character. >>>> Do others agree that we may be moving in the direction of a *literary >>>> model*? >>>> The discussion of White's narrative approach [using Bruner's notion of >>>> scaffolding] may be an example. >>>> >>>> Vasilyuk's key understanding as expressed in his concept of >>>> consciousness >>>> that has two essential aspects [and their relations] >>>> *stratigraphy* as layered registers of depth or height. Each *layer* is >>>> a >>>> life-world. >>>> *structure* of the smallest molecule as unit of consciousness IS a >>>> *mental >>>> image* A mental image having the structure of the two magnetic poles >>>> and >>>> the dynamic of consciousness moving within this dynamic *image* like >>>> the >>>> flow of plasma. Depth of layers AND mental images interact generating >>>> consciousness. >>>> >>>> Vasilyuk's philosophy of practice as 1st order word that is originating >>>> within the liminal spaces on the boundaries OF humanistic THEORY and >>>> cultural historical THEORY of human development. >>>> >>>> Consciousness as the originating site of meaning-GENERATION forming >>>> within >>>> co-experiencing *situations*. In other words situated consciousness as >>>> working experience. >>>> >>>> This is a fragment but does express a *tone* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:58 PM, Larry Purss >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Mike, the declaration that cultural mediation [in particular the >>>>> symbolic >>>>> level] is a key element can put aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy >>>>> and turn to Vygotsky's own way of including this symbolic level of >>>>> coexperiencing. Listen for the implicit movement marking the felt sense >>>>> >>>> of >>>> >>>>> having *fallen away* from a *source* and then finding one's way back to >>>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>>> *source* [and in this return entering *deeper* levels. I am referring >>>>> to >>>>> page 62 of Vasiliyuk's article "Prayer Silence, Psychotherapy". >>>>> >>>>> Vygotsky is exploring a *deeper* layer for experiencing suffering. >>>>> Not a >>>>> hedonistic flight from suffering, not masochistic consolation, not >>>>> >>>> routine >>>> >>>>> platitudes [always a silver lining] but a spiritual sublimation of >>>>> >>>> sorrow. >>>> >>>>> Elevating and deepening into the layer of experiencing the *source* by >>>>> transforming this suffering by return to the eternal. >>>>> Vygotsky images his life as *my star* in the heavens *marked* by >>>>> sorrow. >>>>> His personal life and his Jewish life *marked* by sorrow. BUT this star >>>>> >>>> is >>>> >>>>> IN THE HEAVENS. So the meaning of suffering [the falling away from the >>>>> source] is not in fleeing from the suffering but in returning to the >>>>> *source* [the eternal, the deepest layer of consciousness] . The >>>>> meaning >>>>> >>>> is >>>> >>>>> *found* in the ELEVATION of suffering, elevtion on the wing OF A PRAYER >>>>> >>>> TO >>>> >>>>> GOD. The transformation of suffering IN GOD. >>>>> >>>>> Vygotsky's metaphor is a personal particular *image* expressing a >>>>> deeply >>>>> felt layer of experience. But within the particular unique felt image >>>>> >>>> there >>>> >>>>> is a general [not universal] plot [mytheme] that is historically >>>>> traceable developing symbolic cultural imaginary. >>>>> >>>>> The plot can shift what is *source* [God, sublime, the *self*] and this >>>>> can be historically traced[including the work of experiencing the >>>>> >>>> authentic >>>> >>>>> true *self* in psychology]. >>>>> >>>>> Suzanne Kirschner has traced these transformations in this myth from >>>>> religious origins, transformed within the Romantic movement, and >>>>> shifting >>>>> into psychological theories today. >>>>> >>>>> The point I am offering is that Vygotsky as Vasilyuk his project was >>>>> touched by this mytheme. Peirce in his speculative musings, also was >>>>> >>>> pulled >>>> >>>>> into this mytheme. >>>>> >>>>> I am not suggesting this plot is fundamental or foundational but the >>>>> yearning for this plot to be universal envelops and embodies us into >>>>> this >>>>> particular myth and is experienced as a deeply felt *truth*. It is only >>>>> >>>> one >>>> >>>>> of the *key elements* but it is a significant one of the keys to the >>>>> philosophy of practice. >>>>> The shift to secular themes [such as naturalism] does not change the >>>>> underlying plot structure but does change the images that *have us*. >>>>> Vygotsky saw his *star* ELEVATED to the heavens that transforms >>>>> suffering >>>>> which is the experience existing within a symbolic truth, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 5:00 PM, mike cole >>>> > >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Larry-- >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your continuing explication of your reading of Vasiliuk. >>>>>> Putting >>>>>> aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy for a moment, I am totally >>>>>> behind >>>>>> the delaration >>>>>> that *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT", plus >>>>>> co-experiencing as the necessary condition for that cultural >>>>>> mediation. >>>>>> >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Larry Purss >>>>> >>>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Vasilyuk is developing the *philosophy of Practice* as a >>>>>>> >>>>>> psychotechnical >>>> >>>>> *system*. >>>>>>> He says in his historical outline of the different *basic >>>>>>> foundations* >>>>>>> >>>>>> on >>>>>> >>>>>>> which psychology has relied [from suggestibility to *becoming aware* >>>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>> >>>>> *emancipation* to reliance on learning to reliance on experiencing to >>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>>> current reliance on experiencing [as existential/humanistic] which is >>>>>>> intersecting with todays reliance on productively producing internal >>>>>>> psychological transformations oriented to enriching the meaning of >>>>>>> >>>>>> being. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Vasilyuk says the task exploring the changing reliances of psychology >>>>>>> >>>>>> as a >>>>>> >>>>>>> practice is not to describe the *factual* history of psychology and >>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>>> >>>>> reliances of psychotherapy but to elicit the logic of history. In >>>>>>> >>>>>> other >>>> >>>>> words to *listen* to the evolving IMPLICIT plot that gives meaning and >>>>>>> direction to the subsequent acts of the development of psychology. >>>>>>> >>>>>> (page >>>> >>>>> 11) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One of the key elements Vasilyuk identifies is the concept of >>>>>>> >>>>>> *cultural >>>> >>>>> mediation of experiences*. He says: >>>>>>> Historically cumulative experiencings with standard situations >>>>>>> >>>>>> crystallize >>>>>> >>>>>>> in various SYMBOLIC FORMS; when a person experiences crises, his >>>>>>> consciousness might get connected to these symbolic forms, an so the >>>>>>> process of experiencing, without losing its personality-oriented >>>>>>> uniqueness, gains ADDITIONAL DEPTH AND PRODUCTIVITY. (page 18). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is this additional depth and productivity as symbolic that >>>>>>> Vasilyuk >>>>>>> >>>>>> is >>>>>> >>>>>>> generating within his evolving implicit *plot* oriented to >>>>>>> >>>>>> transforming >>>> >>>>> psychology in order to enrich the meaning of being. This is also the >>>>>>> >>>>>> theme >>>>>> >>>>>>> Vasilyuk is relying on in his other article *Prayer, Silence, and >>>>>>> Psychotherapy*. This is the living symbol of prayer on the boundary >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> experiencing and silence/stillness. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here is Vygotsky exploring the *depth* of symbolism in his own words: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ophelia's tragedy [a personification] is exactly LIKE a lyrical >>>>>>> accompaniment, that towers over the entire play, which is full of the >>>>>>> dreadful torment of INEXPRESSIBILITY, of the most profound dark, >>>>>>> mysterious, and SACRED melodies that in some incomprehensible and >>>>>>> miraculous way REVEAL AND EMBODY what is most exciting, most >>>>>>> allusive, >>>>>>> >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>>> touchingly important, what is DEEPEST AND DARKEST, but what is most >>>>>>> >>>>>> tragic >>>>>> >>>>>>> that is OVERCOME and enlightened, and what IS MOST MYSTICAL in the >>>>>>> >>>>>> entire >>>>>> >>>>>>> play. Thus tragedy turns into PRAYER .... as though with an >>>>>>> oblational >>>>>>> >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>>> expiatory and PRAYERFUL light, it gives religious illumination to the >>>>>>> tragedy." (page 61 of Vasilyuk's article.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Vasiliuk then comments: "No matter how much the devotees of Marxist >>>>>>> materialism try to conceal Vygotsky's religiosity from themselves and >>>>>>> >>>>>> us, >>>>>> >>>>>>> it is perfectly obvious that THESE words [LP -1st order words] could >>>>>>> >>>>>> only >>>>>> >>>>>>> have been written by a person with deep personal EXPERIENCE with >>>>>>> >>>>>> prayer." >>>>>> >>>>>>> (page 61). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To sum up, I am MARKING [for orientation purposes] the concept of >>>>>>> *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT of >>>>>>> >>>>>> coexperiencing >>>>>> >>>>>>> psychotherapy AS philosophy of practice. I believe that the same >>>>>>> >>>>>> *symbolic >>>>>> >>>>>>> gravity* can be expressed through changing images. The plot of >>>>>>> >>>>>> "falling >>>> >>>>> away from* and *returning to* can be expressed in multiple symbols >>>>>>> >>>>>> such >>>> >>>>> as turning away from God, turning away from the natural sublime, >>>>>>> >>>>>> turning >>>> >>>>> away from one's true authentic self, These images are expressing >>>>>>> >>>>>> different >>>>>> >>>>>>> *reliances* but are sharing the same symbolic plot as the cultural >>>>>>> mediation of experiencing. The IMPLICIT deepening of coexperience >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> >>>>>> is >>>>>> >>>>>>> now emerging in Russia since the 1980's that Vasilyuk is plotting may >>>>>>> >>>>>> be >>>> >>>>> implicitly enveloped in this same mytheme of falling away from *the >>>>>>> >>>>>> source* >>>>>> >>>>>>> and then the return to this *source. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The book *The Religious and Romantic Roots of Psychoanalysis* by >>>>>>> >>>>>> Suzanne >>>> >>>>> Kirschner has plotted this particular myth flowing through Western >>>>>>> >>>>>> ways >>>> >>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>>> experiencing the meaning of being. She is tracing the roots of the >>>>>>> emergence of Freudian psychoanalysis but it is the more general >>>>>>> >>>>>> philosophy >>>>>> >>>>>>> of practice as including this KEY ELEMENT of cultural mediation as >>>>>>> deepening coexperiences that I am highlighting. >>>>>>> As Vasilyuk says: the task is to LISTEN FOR *the evolving IMPLICIT >>>>>>> plot that gives meaning and direction to the subsequent acts of the >>>>>>> *development* of psychology [including the KEY symbolic element that >>>>>>> *deepens* experience beyond the personal existential. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Larry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Nov 7 18:33:44 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 02:33:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: CoExperiencing as a Philosophy of Practice. In-Reply-To: <563D5C22.3020802@mira.net> References: <563D5C22.3020802@mira.net> Message-ID: >From what I can discern, the convergence of units here make for an interesting problem. It seems it would be something like "the consciousness of goal formation". Best, Huw On 7 November 2015 at 02:04, Andy Blunden wrote: > and I think there is a dire need for such a convergence as well. > One of the contributing factors to the anti-science currents which can > lead to great medical, political and social problems is antipathy to one > particular, dominant *style* of science, and I think entanglement between > science and the arts promotes a broader feel for different styles of > science. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > On 7/11/2015 12:15 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Larry, I strongly believe that there is a convergence of humanities and >> social/behavioral sciences going on as one thread of academic discourse >> congenial to CHAT. A real good location for pursuing it is. The Comm dept >> at UCSD, if we add the arts as part off the mix. >> That's my story at least. :-) >> >> Mike >> >> On Friday, November 6, 2015, Larry Purss wrote: >> >> I thought I would add the last paragraph of Alex Kozulin's review of >>> Vasiliyuk's book. >>> >>> By choosing the literary model of human experiencing, Vasilyuk affirms >>> his >>> adherence to the humanistic, rather than scientific approach to human >>> psychology. His work can also be seen as a blueprint for the future >>> convergence of humanistic psychology with Vygotsky?s cultural-historical >>> theory of human development . >>> >>> This premonition that some new convergence is on the horizon. The coming >>> intersection forming a hybrid character. >>> Do others agree that we may be moving in the direction of a *literary >>> model*? >>> The discussion of White's narrative approach [using Bruner's notion of >>> scaffolding] may be an example. >>> >>> Vasilyuk's key understanding as expressed in his concept of >>> consciousness >>> that has two essential aspects [and their relations] >>> *stratigraphy* as layered registers of depth or height. Each *layer* is a >>> life-world. >>> *structure* of the smallest molecule as unit of consciousness IS a >>> *mental >>> image* A mental image having the structure of the two magnetic poles and >>> the dynamic of consciousness moving within this dynamic *image* like the >>> flow of plasma. Depth of layers AND mental images interact generating >>> consciousness. >>> >>> Vasilyuk's philosophy of practice as 1st order word that is originating >>> within the liminal spaces on the boundaries OF humanistic THEORY and >>> cultural historical THEORY of human development. >>> >>> Consciousness as the originating site of meaning-GENERATION forming >>> within >>> co-experiencing *situations*. In other words situated consciousness as >>> working experience. >>> >>> This is a fragment but does express a *tone* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:58 PM, Larry Purss >> > wrote: >>> >>> Mike, the declaration that cultural mediation [in particular the symbolic >>>> level] is a key element can put aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy >>>> and turn to Vygotsky's own way of including this symbolic level of >>>> coexperiencing. Listen for the implicit movement marking the felt sense >>>> >>> of >>> >>>> having *fallen away* from a *source* and then finding one's way back to >>>> >>> the >>> >>>> *source* [and in this return entering *deeper* levels. I am referring >>>> to >>>> page 62 of Vasiliyuk's article "Prayer Silence, Psychotherapy". >>>> >>>> Vygotsky is exploring a *deeper* layer for experiencing suffering. Not >>>> a >>>> hedonistic flight from suffering, not masochistic consolation, not >>>> >>> routine >>> >>>> platitudes [always a silver lining] but a spiritual sublimation of >>>> >>> sorrow. >>> >>>> Elevating and deepening into the layer of experiencing the *source* by >>>> transforming this suffering by return to the eternal. >>>> Vygotsky images his life as *my star* in the heavens *marked* by sorrow. >>>> His personal life and his Jewish life *marked* by sorrow. BUT this star >>>> >>> is >>> >>>> IN THE HEAVENS. So the meaning of suffering [the falling away from the >>>> source] is not in fleeing from the suffering but in returning to the >>>> *source* [the eternal, the deepest layer of consciousness] . The meaning >>>> >>> is >>> >>>> *found* in the ELEVATION of suffering, elevtion on the wing OF A PRAYER >>>> >>> TO >>> >>>> GOD. The transformation of suffering IN GOD. >>>> >>>> Vygotsky's metaphor is a personal particular *image* expressing a >>>> deeply >>>> felt layer of experience. But within the particular unique felt image >>>> >>> there >>> >>>> is a general [not universal] plot [mytheme] that is historically >>>> traceable developing symbolic cultural imaginary. >>>> >>>> The plot can shift what is *source* [God, sublime, the *self*] and this >>>> can be historically traced[including the work of experiencing the >>>> >>> authentic >>> >>>> true *self* in psychology]. >>>> >>>> Suzanne Kirschner has traced these transformations in this myth from >>>> religious origins, transformed within the Romantic movement, and >>>> shifting >>>> into psychological theories today. >>>> >>>> The point I am offering is that Vygotsky as Vasilyuk his project was >>>> touched by this mytheme. Peirce in his speculative musings, also was >>>> >>> pulled >>> >>>> into this mytheme. >>>> >>>> I am not suggesting this plot is fundamental or foundational but the >>>> yearning for this plot to be universal envelops and embodies us into >>>> this >>>> particular myth and is experienced as a deeply felt *truth*. It is only >>>> >>> one >>> >>>> of the *key elements* but it is a significant one of the keys to the >>>> philosophy of practice. >>>> The shift to secular themes [such as naturalism] does not change the >>>> underlying plot structure but does change the images that *have us*. >>>> Vygotsky saw his *star* ELEVATED to the heavens that transforms >>>> suffering >>>> which is the experience existing within a symbolic truth, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 5:00 PM, mike cole >>> > >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Larry-- >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your continuing explication of your reading of Vasiliuk. >>>>> Putting >>>>> aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy for a moment, I am totally >>>>> behind >>>>> the delaration >>>>> that *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT", plus >>>>> co-experiencing as the necessary condition for that cultural mediation. >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Larry Purss >>>> >>>> > wrote: >>> >>>> Vasilyuk is developing the *philosophy of Practice* as a >>>>>> >>>>> psychotechnical >>> >>>> *system*. >>>>>> He says in his historical outline of the different *basic foundations* >>>>>> >>>>> on >>>>> >>>>>> which psychology has relied [from suggestibility to *becoming aware* >>>>>> >>>>> to >>> >>>> *emancipation* to reliance on learning to reliance on experiencing to >>>>>> >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> current reliance on experiencing [as existential/humanistic] which is >>>>>> intersecting with todays reliance on productively producing internal >>>>>> psychological transformations oriented to enriching the meaning of >>>>>> >>>>> being. >>>>> >>>>>> Vasilyuk says the task exploring the changing reliances of psychology >>>>>> >>>>> as a >>>>> >>>>>> practice is not to describe the *factual* history of psychology and >>>>>> >>>>> the >>> >>>> reliances of psychotherapy but to elicit the logic of history. In >>>>>> >>>>> other >>> >>>> words to *listen* to the evolving IMPLICIT plot that gives meaning and >>>>>> direction to the subsequent acts of the development of psychology. >>>>>> >>>>> (page >>> >>>> 11) >>>>>> >>>>>> One of the key elements Vasilyuk identifies is the concept of >>>>>> >>>>> *cultural >>> >>>> mediation of experiences*. He says: >>>>>> Historically cumulative experiencings with standard situations >>>>>> >>>>> crystallize >>>>> >>>>>> in various SYMBOLIC FORMS; when a person experiences crises, his >>>>>> consciousness might get connected to these symbolic forms, an so the >>>>>> process of experiencing, without losing its personality-oriented >>>>>> uniqueness, gains ADDITIONAL DEPTH AND PRODUCTIVITY. (page 18). >>>>>> >>>>>> It is this additional depth and productivity as symbolic that Vasilyuk >>>>>> >>>>> is >>>>> >>>>>> generating within his evolving implicit *plot* oriented to >>>>>> >>>>> transforming >>> >>>> psychology in order to enrich the meaning of being. This is also the >>>>>> >>>>> theme >>>>> >>>>>> Vasilyuk is relying on in his other article *Prayer, Silence, and >>>>>> Psychotherapy*. This is the living symbol of prayer on the boundary of >>>>>> experiencing and silence/stillness. >>>>>> >>>>>> Here is Vygotsky exploring the *depth* of symbolism in his own words: >>>>>> >>>>>> Ophelia's tragedy [a personification] is exactly LIKE a lyrical >>>>>> accompaniment, that towers over the entire play, which is full of the >>>>>> dreadful torment of INEXPRESSIBILITY, of the most profound dark, >>>>>> mysterious, and SACRED melodies that in some incomprehensible and >>>>>> miraculous way REVEAL AND EMBODY what is most exciting, most allusive, >>>>>> >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>>> touchingly important, what is DEEPEST AND DARKEST, but what is most >>>>>> >>>>> tragic >>>>> >>>>>> that is OVERCOME and enlightened, and what IS MOST MYSTICAL in the >>>>>> >>>>> entire >>>>> >>>>>> play. Thus tragedy turns into PRAYER .... as though with an oblational >>>>>> >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>>> expiatory and PRAYERFUL light, it gives religious illumination to the >>>>>> tragedy." (page 61 of Vasilyuk's article.) >>>>>> >>>>>> Vasiliuk then comments: "No matter how much the devotees of Marxist >>>>>> materialism try to conceal Vygotsky's religiosity from themselves and >>>>>> >>>>> us, >>>>> >>>>>> it is perfectly obvious that THESE words [LP -1st order words] could >>>>>> >>>>> only >>>>> >>>>>> have been written by a person with deep personal EXPERIENCE with >>>>>> >>>>> prayer." >>>>> >>>>>> (page 61). >>>>>> >>>>>> To sum up, I am MARKING [for orientation purposes] the concept of >>>>>> *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT of >>>>>> >>>>> coexperiencing >>>>> >>>>>> psychotherapy AS philosophy of practice. I believe that the same >>>>>> >>>>> *symbolic >>>>> >>>>>> gravity* can be expressed through changing images. The plot of >>>>>> >>>>> "falling >>> >>>> away from* and *returning to* can be expressed in multiple symbols >>>>>> >>>>> such >>> >>>> as turning away from God, turning away from the natural sublime, >>>>>> >>>>> turning >>> >>>> away from one's true authentic self, These images are expressing >>>>>> >>>>> different >>>>> >>>>>> *reliances* but are sharing the same symbolic plot as the cultural >>>>>> mediation of experiencing. The IMPLICIT deepening of coexperience that >>>>>> >>>>> is >>>>> >>>>>> now emerging in Russia since the 1980's that Vasilyuk is plotting may >>>>>> >>>>> be >>> >>>> implicitly enveloped in this same mytheme of falling away from *the >>>>>> >>>>> source* >>>>> >>>>>> and then the return to this *source. >>>>>> >>>>>> The book *The Religious and Romantic Roots of Psychoanalysis* by >>>>>> >>>>> Suzanne >>> >>>> Kirschner has plotted this particular myth flowing through Western >>>>>> >>>>> ways >>> >>>> of >>>>> >>>>>> experiencing the meaning of being. She is tracing the roots of the >>>>>> emergence of Freudian psychoanalysis but it is the more general >>>>>> >>>>> philosophy >>>>> >>>>>> of practice as including this KEY ELEMENT of cultural mediation as >>>>>> deepening coexperiences that I am highlighting. >>>>>> As Vasilyuk says: the task is to LISTEN FOR *the evolving IMPLICIT >>>>>> plot that gives meaning and direction to the subsequent acts of the >>>>>> *development* of psychology [including the KEY symbolic element that >>>>>> *deepens* experience beyond the personal existential. >>>>>> >>>>>> Larry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Nov 7 18:37:53 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 02:37:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: CoExperiencing as a Philosophy of Practice. In-Reply-To: References: <563D5C22.3020802@mira.net> Message-ID: And a concurrent albeit perhaps more down-to-earth consideration is how is such a research body administered? Is that why Andy is referring to the arts, particularly? Best, Huw On 8 November 2015 at 02:33, Huw Lloyd wrote: > From what I can discern, the convergence of units here make for an > interesting problem. It seems it would be something like "the > consciousness of goal formation". > > Best, > Huw > > On 7 November 2015 at 02:04, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> and I think there is a dire need for such a convergence as well. >> One of the contributing factors to the anti-science currents which can >> lead to great medical, political and social problems is antipathy to one >> particular, dominant *style* of science, and I think entanglement between >> science and the arts promotes a broader feel for different styles of >> science. >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> On 7/11/2015 12:15 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Larry, I strongly believe that there is a convergence of humanities and >>> social/behavioral sciences going on as one thread of academic discourse >>> congenial to CHAT. A real good location for pursuing it is. The Comm dept >>> at UCSD, if we add the arts as part off the mix. >>> That's my story at least. :-) >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> On Friday, November 6, 2015, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>> I thought I would add the last paragraph of Alex Kozulin's review of >>>> Vasiliyuk's book. >>>> >>>> By choosing the literary model of human experiencing, Vasilyuk affirms >>>> his >>>> adherence to the humanistic, rather than scientific approach to human >>>> psychology. His work can also be seen as a blueprint for the future >>>> convergence of humanistic psychology with Vygotsky?s cultural-historical >>>> theory of human development . >>>> >>>> This premonition that some new convergence is on the horizon. The >>>> coming >>>> intersection forming a hybrid character. >>>> Do others agree that we may be moving in the direction of a *literary >>>> model*? >>>> The discussion of White's narrative approach [using Bruner's notion of >>>> scaffolding] may be an example. >>>> >>>> Vasilyuk's key understanding as expressed in his concept of >>>> consciousness >>>> that has two essential aspects [and their relations] >>>> *stratigraphy* as layered registers of depth or height. Each *layer* is >>>> a >>>> life-world. >>>> *structure* of the smallest molecule as unit of consciousness IS a >>>> *mental >>>> image* A mental image having the structure of the two magnetic poles >>>> and >>>> the dynamic of consciousness moving within this dynamic *image* like >>>> the >>>> flow of plasma. Depth of layers AND mental images interact generating >>>> consciousness. >>>> >>>> Vasilyuk's philosophy of practice as 1st order word that is originating >>>> within the liminal spaces on the boundaries OF humanistic THEORY and >>>> cultural historical THEORY of human development. >>>> >>>> Consciousness as the originating site of meaning-GENERATION forming >>>> within >>>> co-experiencing *situations*. In other words situated consciousness as >>>> working experience. >>>> >>>> This is a fragment but does express a *tone* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:58 PM, Larry Purss >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Mike, the declaration that cultural mediation [in particular the >>>>> symbolic >>>>> level] is a key element can put aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy >>>>> and turn to Vygotsky's own way of including this symbolic level of >>>>> coexperiencing. Listen for the implicit movement marking the felt sense >>>>> >>>> of >>>> >>>>> having *fallen away* from a *source* and then finding one's way back to >>>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>>> *source* [and in this return entering *deeper* levels. I am referring >>>>> to >>>>> page 62 of Vasiliyuk's article "Prayer Silence, Psychotherapy". >>>>> >>>>> Vygotsky is exploring a *deeper* layer for experiencing suffering. >>>>> Not a >>>>> hedonistic flight from suffering, not masochistic consolation, not >>>>> >>>> routine >>>> >>>>> platitudes [always a silver lining] but a spiritual sublimation of >>>>> >>>> sorrow. >>>> >>>>> Elevating and deepening into the layer of experiencing the *source* by >>>>> transforming this suffering by return to the eternal. >>>>> Vygotsky images his life as *my star* in the heavens *marked* by >>>>> sorrow. >>>>> His personal life and his Jewish life *marked* by sorrow. BUT this star >>>>> >>>> is >>>> >>>>> IN THE HEAVENS. So the meaning of suffering [the falling away from the >>>>> source] is not in fleeing from the suffering but in returning to the >>>>> *source* [the eternal, the deepest layer of consciousness] . The >>>>> meaning >>>>> >>>> is >>>> >>>>> *found* in the ELEVATION of suffering, elevtion on the wing OF A PRAYER >>>>> >>>> TO >>>> >>>>> GOD. The transformation of suffering IN GOD. >>>>> >>>>> Vygotsky's metaphor is a personal particular *image* expressing a >>>>> deeply >>>>> felt layer of experience. But within the particular unique felt image >>>>> >>>> there >>>> >>>>> is a general [not universal] plot [mytheme] that is historically >>>>> traceable developing symbolic cultural imaginary. >>>>> >>>>> The plot can shift what is *source* [God, sublime, the *self*] and this >>>>> can be historically traced[including the work of experiencing the >>>>> >>>> authentic >>>> >>>>> true *self* in psychology]. >>>>> >>>>> Suzanne Kirschner has traced these transformations in this myth from >>>>> religious origins, transformed within the Romantic movement, and >>>>> shifting >>>>> into psychological theories today. >>>>> >>>>> The point I am offering is that Vygotsky as Vasilyuk his project was >>>>> touched by this mytheme. Peirce in his speculative musings, also was >>>>> >>>> pulled >>>> >>>>> into this mytheme. >>>>> >>>>> I am not suggesting this plot is fundamental or foundational but the >>>>> yearning for this plot to be universal envelops and embodies us into >>>>> this >>>>> particular myth and is experienced as a deeply felt *truth*. It is only >>>>> >>>> one >>>> >>>>> of the *key elements* but it is a significant one of the keys to the >>>>> philosophy of practice. >>>>> The shift to secular themes [such as naturalism] does not change the >>>>> underlying plot structure but does change the images that *have us*. >>>>> Vygotsky saw his *star* ELEVATED to the heavens that transforms >>>>> suffering >>>>> which is the experience existing within a symbolic truth, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 5:00 PM, mike cole >>>> > >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Larry-- >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your continuing explication of your reading of Vasiliuk. >>>>>> Putting >>>>>> aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy for a moment, I am totally >>>>>> behind >>>>>> the delaration >>>>>> that *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT", plus >>>>>> co-experiencing as the necessary condition for that cultural >>>>>> mediation. >>>>>> >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Larry Purss >>>>> >>>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Vasilyuk is developing the *philosophy of Practice* as a >>>>>>> >>>>>> psychotechnical >>>> >>>>> *system*. >>>>>>> He says in his historical outline of the different *basic >>>>>>> foundations* >>>>>>> >>>>>> on >>>>>> >>>>>>> which psychology has relied [from suggestibility to *becoming aware* >>>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>> >>>>> *emancipation* to reliance on learning to reliance on experiencing to >>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>>> current reliance on experiencing [as existential/humanistic] which is >>>>>>> intersecting with todays reliance on productively producing internal >>>>>>> psychological transformations oriented to enriching the meaning of >>>>>>> >>>>>> being. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Vasilyuk says the task exploring the changing reliances of psychology >>>>>>> >>>>>> as a >>>>>> >>>>>>> practice is not to describe the *factual* history of psychology and >>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>>> >>>>> reliances of psychotherapy but to elicit the logic of history. In >>>>>>> >>>>>> other >>>> >>>>> words to *listen* to the evolving IMPLICIT plot that gives meaning and >>>>>>> direction to the subsequent acts of the development of psychology. >>>>>>> >>>>>> (page >>>> >>>>> 11) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One of the key elements Vasilyuk identifies is the concept of >>>>>>> >>>>>> *cultural >>>> >>>>> mediation of experiences*. He says: >>>>>>> Historically cumulative experiencings with standard situations >>>>>>> >>>>>> crystallize >>>>>> >>>>>>> in various SYMBOLIC FORMS; when a person experiences crises, his >>>>>>> consciousness might get connected to these symbolic forms, an so the >>>>>>> process of experiencing, without losing its personality-oriented >>>>>>> uniqueness, gains ADDITIONAL DEPTH AND PRODUCTIVITY. (page 18). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is this additional depth and productivity as symbolic that >>>>>>> Vasilyuk >>>>>>> >>>>>> is >>>>>> >>>>>>> generating within his evolving implicit *plot* oriented to >>>>>>> >>>>>> transforming >>>> >>>>> psychology in order to enrich the meaning of being. This is also the >>>>>>> >>>>>> theme >>>>>> >>>>>>> Vasilyuk is relying on in his other article *Prayer, Silence, and >>>>>>> Psychotherapy*. This is the living symbol of prayer on the boundary >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> experiencing and silence/stillness. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here is Vygotsky exploring the *depth* of symbolism in his own words: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ophelia's tragedy [a personification] is exactly LIKE a lyrical >>>>>>> accompaniment, that towers over the entire play, which is full of the >>>>>>> dreadful torment of INEXPRESSIBILITY, of the most profound dark, >>>>>>> mysterious, and SACRED melodies that in some incomprehensible and >>>>>>> miraculous way REVEAL AND EMBODY what is most exciting, most >>>>>>> allusive, >>>>>>> >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>>> touchingly important, what is DEEPEST AND DARKEST, but what is most >>>>>>> >>>>>> tragic >>>>>> >>>>>>> that is OVERCOME and enlightened, and what IS MOST MYSTICAL in the >>>>>>> >>>>>> entire >>>>>> >>>>>>> play. Thus tragedy turns into PRAYER .... as though with an >>>>>>> oblational >>>>>>> >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>>> expiatory and PRAYERFUL light, it gives religious illumination to the >>>>>>> tragedy." (page 61 of Vasilyuk's article.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Vasiliuk then comments: "No matter how much the devotees of Marxist >>>>>>> materialism try to conceal Vygotsky's religiosity from themselves and >>>>>>> >>>>>> us, >>>>>> >>>>>>> it is perfectly obvious that THESE words [LP -1st order words] could >>>>>>> >>>>>> only >>>>>> >>>>>>> have been written by a person with deep personal EXPERIENCE with >>>>>>> >>>>>> prayer." >>>>>> >>>>>>> (page 61). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To sum up, I am MARKING [for orientation purposes] the concept of >>>>>>> *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT of >>>>>>> >>>>>> coexperiencing >>>>>> >>>>>>> psychotherapy AS philosophy of practice. I believe that the same >>>>>>> >>>>>> *symbolic >>>>>> >>>>>>> gravity* can be expressed through changing images. The plot of >>>>>>> >>>>>> "falling >>>> >>>>> away from* and *returning to* can be expressed in multiple symbols >>>>>>> >>>>>> such >>>> >>>>> as turning away from God, turning away from the natural sublime, >>>>>>> >>>>>> turning >>>> >>>>> away from one's true authentic self, These images are expressing >>>>>>> >>>>>> different >>>>>> >>>>>>> *reliances* but are sharing the same symbolic plot as the cultural >>>>>>> mediation of experiencing. The IMPLICIT deepening of coexperience >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> >>>>>> is >>>>>> >>>>>>> now emerging in Russia since the 1980's that Vasilyuk is plotting may >>>>>>> >>>>>> be >>>> >>>>> implicitly enveloped in this same mytheme of falling away from *the >>>>>>> >>>>>> source* >>>>>> >>>>>>> and then the return to this *source. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The book *The Religious and Romantic Roots of Psychoanalysis* by >>>>>>> >>>>>> Suzanne >>>> >>>>> Kirschner has plotted this particular myth flowing through Western >>>>>>> >>>>>> ways >>>> >>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>>> experiencing the meaning of being. She is tracing the roots of the >>>>>>> emergence of Freudian psychoanalysis but it is the more general >>>>>>> >>>>>> philosophy >>>>>> >>>>>>> of practice as including this KEY ELEMENT of cultural mediation as >>>>>>> deepening coexperiences that I am highlighting. >>>>>>> As Vasilyuk says: the task is to LISTEN FOR *the evolving IMPLICIT >>>>>>> plot that gives meaning and direction to the subsequent acts of the >>>>>>> *development* of psychology [including the KEY symbolic element that >>>>>>> *deepens* experience beyond the personal existential. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Larry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Sat Nov 7 19:15:28 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 14:15:28 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: CoExperiencing as a Philosophy of Practice. In-Reply-To: References: <563D5C22.3020802@mira.net> Message-ID: <563EBE50.8040502@mira.net> I think that the traditional arrangement of departments and research centres is not in itself problematic. It does require an openness to individual's having diverse CVs and arguments drawing on different traditions. Wilhelm Wundt would hopefully still be able to get a job in a Psychology department. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 8/11/2015 1:37 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > And a concurrent albeit perhaps more down-to-earth > consideration is how is such a research body > administered? Is that why Andy is referring to the arts, > particularly? > > Best, > Huw > > On 8 November 2015 at 02:33, Huw Lloyd > > wrote: > > From what I can discern, the convergence of units here > make for an interesting problem. It seems it would be > something like "the consciousness of goal formation". > > Best, > Huw > > On 7 November 2015 at 02:04, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > and I think there is a dire need for such a > convergence as well. > One of the contributing factors to the > anti-science currents which can lead to great > medical, political and social problems is > antipathy to one particular, dominant *style* of > science, and I think entanglement between science > and the arts promotes a broader feel for different > styles of science. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > On 7/11/2015 12:15 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Larry, I strongly believe that there is a > convergence of humanities and > social/behavioral sciences going on as one > thread of academic discourse > congenial to CHAT. A real good location for > pursuing it is. The Comm dept > at UCSD, if we add the arts as part off the mix. > That's my story at least. :-) > > Mike > > On Friday, November 6, 2015, Larry Purss > > wrote: > > I thought I would add the last paragraph > of Alex Kozulin's review of > Vasiliyuk's book. > > By choosing the literary model of human > experiencing, Vasilyuk affirms his > adherence to the humanistic, rather than > scientific approach to human > psychology. His work can also be seen as a > blueprint for the future > convergence of humanistic psychology with > Vygotsky?s cultural-historical > theory of human development . > > This premonition that some new > convergence is on the horizon. The coming > intersection forming a hybrid character. > Do others agree that we may be moving in > the direction of a *literary > model*? > The discussion of White's narrative > approach [using Bruner's notion of > scaffolding] may be an example. > > Vasilyuk's key understanding as > expressed in his concept of consciousness > that has two essential aspects [and their > relations] > *stratigraphy* as layered registers of > depth or height. Each *layer* is a > life-world. > *structure* of the smallest molecule as > unit of consciousness IS a *mental > image* A mental image having the > structure of the two magnetic poles and > the dynamic of consciousness moving within > this dynamic *image* like the > flow of plasma. Depth of layers AND > mental images interact generating > consciousness. > > Vasilyuk's philosophy of practice as 1st > order word that is originating > within the liminal spaces on the > boundaries OF humanistic THEORY and > cultural historical THEORY of human > development. > > Consciousness as the originating site of > meaning-GENERATION forming within > co-experiencing *situations*. In other > words situated consciousness as > working experience. > > This is a fragment but does express a *tone* > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:58 PM, Larry > Purss > > wrote: > > Mike, the declaration that cultural > mediation [in particular the symbolic > level] is a key element can put aside > psychoanalysis and psychotherapy > and turn to Vygotsky's own way of > including this symbolic level of > coexperiencing. Listen for the > implicit movement marking the felt sense > > of > > having *fallen away* from a *source* > and then finding one's way back to > > the > > *source* [and in this return entering > *deeper* levels. I am referring to > page 62 of Vasiliyuk's article "Prayer > Silence, Psychotherapy". > > Vygotsky is exploring a *deeper* > layer for experiencing suffering. Not a > hedonistic flight from suffering, not > masochistic consolation, not > > routine > > platitudes [always a silver lining] > but a spiritual sublimation of > > sorrow. > > Elevating and deepening into the layer > of experiencing the *source* by > transforming this suffering by return > to the eternal. > Vygotsky images his life as *my star* > in the heavens *marked* by sorrow. > His personal life and his Jewish life > *marked* by sorrow. BUT this star > > is > > IN THE HEAVENS. So the meaning of > suffering [the falling away from the > source] is not in fleeing from the > suffering but in returning to the > *source* [the eternal, the deepest > layer of consciousness] . The meaning > > is > > *found* in the ELEVATION of suffering, > elevtion on the wing OF A PRAYER > > TO > > GOD. The transformation of suffering > IN GOD. > > Vygotsky's metaphor is a personal > particular *image* expressing a deeply > felt layer of experience. But within > the particular unique felt image > > there > > is a general [not universal] plot > [mytheme] that is historically > traceable developing symbolic > cultural imaginary. > > The plot can shift what is *source* > [God, sublime, the *self*] and this > can be historically traced[including > the work of experiencing the > > authentic > > true *self* in psychology]. > > Suzanne Kirschner has traced these > transformations in this myth from > religious origins, transformed within > the Romantic movement, and shifting > into psychological theories today. > > The point I am offering is that > Vygotsky as Vasilyuk his project was > touched by this mytheme. Peirce in his > speculative musings, also was > > pulled > > into this mytheme. > > I am not suggesting this plot is > fundamental or foundational but the > yearning for this plot to be universal > envelops and embodies us into this > particular myth and is experienced as > a deeply felt *truth*. It is only > > one > > of the *key elements* but it is a > significant one of the keys to the > philosophy of practice. > The shift to secular themes [such as > naturalism] does not change the > underlying plot structure but does > change the images that *have us*. > Vygotsky saw his *star* ELEVATED to > the heavens that transforms suffering > which is the experience existing > within a symbolic truth, > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 5:00 PM, mike > cole > > > wrote: > > Hi Larry-- > > Thanks for your continuing > explication of your reading of > Vasiliuk. > Putting > aside psychoanalysis and > psychotherapy for a moment, I am > totally behind > the delaration > that *cultural mediation OF > experience* which is a KEY > ELEMENT", plus > co-experiencing as the necessary > condition for that cultural mediation. > > mike > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:17 PM, > Larry Purss > > > wrote: > > Vasilyuk is developing the > *philosophy of Practice* as a > > psychotechnical > > *system*. > He says in his historical > outline of the different > *basic foundations* > > on > > which psychology has relied > [from suggestibility to > *becoming aware* > > to > > *emancipation* to reliance on > learning to reliance on > experiencing to > > the > > current reliance on > experiencing [as > existential/humanistic] which is > intersecting with todays > reliance on productively > producing internal > psychological transformations > oriented to enriching the > meaning of > > being. > > Vasilyuk says the task > exploring the changing > reliances of psychology > > as a > > practice is not to describe > the *factual* history of > psychology and > > the > > reliances of psychotherapy but > to elicit the logic of history. In > > other > > words to *listen* to the > evolving IMPLICIT plot that > gives meaning and > direction to the subsequent > acts of the development of > psychology. > > (page > > 11) > > One of the key elements > Vasilyuk identifies is the > concept of > > *cultural > > mediation of experiences*. He > says: > Historically cumulative > experiencings with standard > situations > > crystallize > > in various SYMBOLIC FORMS; > when a person experiences > crises, his > consciousness might get > connected to these symbolic > forms, an so the > process of experiencing, > without losing its > personality-oriented > uniqueness, gains ADDITIONAL > DEPTH AND PRODUCTIVITY. (page 18). > > It is this additional depth > and productivity as symbolic > that Vasilyuk > > is > > generating within his evolving > implicit *plot* oriented to > > transforming > > psychology in order to enrich > the meaning of being. This is > also the > > theme > > Vasilyuk is relying on in his > other article *Prayer, > Silence, and > Psychotherapy*. This is the > living symbol of prayer on the > boundary of > experiencing and > silence/stillness. > > Here is Vygotsky exploring the > *depth* of symbolism in his > own words: > > Ophelia's tragedy [a > personification] is exactly > LIKE a lyrical > accompaniment, that towers > over the entire play, which is > full of the > dreadful torment of > INEXPRESSIBILITY, of the most > profound dark, > mysterious, and SACRED > melodies that in some > incomprehensible and > miraculous way REVEAL AND > EMBODY what is most exciting, > most allusive, > > and > > touchingly important, what is > DEEPEST AND DARKEST, but what > is most > > tragic > > that is OVERCOME and > enlightened, and what IS MOST > MYSTICAL in the > > entire > > play. Thus tragedy turns into > PRAYER .... as though with an > oblational > > and > > expiatory and PRAYERFUL light, > it gives religious > illumination to the > tragedy." (page 61 of > Vasilyuk's article.) > > Vasiliuk then comments: "No > matter how much the devotees > of Marxist > materialism try to conceal > Vygotsky's religiosity from > themselves and > > us, > > it is perfectly obvious that > THESE words [LP -1st order > words] could > > only > > have been written by a person > with deep personal EXPERIENCE with > > prayer." > > (page 61). > > To sum up, I am MARKING [for > orientation purposes] the > concept of > *cultural mediation OF > experience* which is a KEY > ELEMENT of > > coexperiencing > > psychotherapy AS philosophy of > practice. I believe that the same > > *symbolic > > gravity* can be expressed > through changing images. The > plot of > > "falling > > away from* and *returning to* > can be expressed in multiple > symbols > > such > > as turning away from God, > turning away from the natural > sublime, > > turning > > away from one's true authentic > self, These images are expressing > > different > > *reliances* but are sharing > the same symbolic plot as the > cultural > mediation of experiencing. The > IMPLICIT deepening of > coexperience that > > is > > now emerging in Russia since > the 1980's that Vasilyuk is > plotting may > > be > > implicitly enveloped in this > same mytheme of falling away > from *the > > source* > > and then the return to this > *source. > > The book *The Religious and > Romantic Roots of > Psychoanalysis* by > > Suzanne > > Kirschner has plotted this > particular myth flowing > through Western > > ways > > of > > experiencing the meaning of > being. She is tracing the > roots of the > emergence of Freudian > psychoanalysis but it is the > more general > > philosophy > > of practice as including this > KEY ELEMENT of cultural > mediation as > deepening coexperiences that I > am highlighting. > As Vasilyuk says: the task is > to LISTEN FOR *the evolving > IMPLICIT > plot that gives meaning and > direction to the subsequent > acts of the > *development* of psychology > [including the KEY symbolic > element that > *deepens* experience beyond > the personal existential. > > Larry > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to > deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst > Boesch > > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Nov 8 07:14:19 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 15:14:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: CoExperiencing as a Philosophy of Practice. In-Reply-To: <563EBE50.8040502@mira.net> References: <563D5C22.3020802@mira.net> <563EBE50.8040502@mira.net> Message-ID: >From my observations, what we generally have are departments basing their work on either discourse (description) or correlative measures. These are inadequate to the job. From what I can gather, this is primarily due to administration. Best, Huw On 8 November 2015 at 03:15, Andy Blunden wrote: > I think that the traditional arrangement of departments and research > centres is not in itself problematic. It does require an openness to > individual's having diverse CVs and arguments drawing on different > traditions. Wilhelm Wundt would hopefully still be able to get a job in a > Psychology department. > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 8/11/2015 1:37 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > And a concurrent albeit perhaps more down-to-earth consideration is how is > such a research body administered? Is that why Andy is referring to the > arts, particularly? > > Best, > Huw > > On 8 November 2015 at 02:33, Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> From what I can discern, the convergence of units here make for an >> interesting problem. It seems it would be something like "the >> consciousness of goal formation". >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> On 7 November 2015 at 02:04, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> and I think there is a dire need for such a convergence as well. >>> One of the contributing factors to the anti-science currents which can >>> lead to great medical, political and social problems is antipathy to one >>> particular, dominant *style* of science, and I think entanglement between >>> science and the arts promotes a broader feel for different styles of >>> science. >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> On 7/11/2015 12:15 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> Larry, I strongly believe that there is a convergence of humanities and >>>> social/behavioral sciences going on as one thread of academic discourse >>>> congenial to CHAT. A real good location for pursuing it is. The Comm >>>> dept >>>> at UCSD, if we add the arts as part off the mix. >>>> That's my story at least. :-) >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> On Friday, November 6, 2015, Larry Purss wrote: >>>> >>>> I thought I would add the last paragraph of Alex Kozulin's review of >>>>> Vasiliyuk's book. >>>>> >>>>> By choosing the literary model of human experiencing, Vasilyuk affirms >>>>> his >>>>> adherence to the humanistic, rather than scientific approach to human >>>>> psychology. His work can also be seen as a blueprint for the future >>>>> convergence of humanistic psychology with Vygotsky?s >>>>> cultural-historical >>>>> theory of human development . >>>>> >>>>> This premonition that some new convergence is on the horizon. The >>>>> coming >>>>> intersection forming a hybrid character. >>>>> Do others agree that we may be moving in the direction of a *literary >>>>> model*? >>>>> The discussion of White's narrative approach [using Bruner's notion of >>>>> scaffolding] may be an example. >>>>> >>>>> Vasilyuk's key understanding as expressed in his concept of >>>>> consciousness >>>>> that has two essential aspects [and their relations] >>>>> *stratigraphy* as layered registers of depth or height. Each *layer* >>>>> is a >>>>> life-world. >>>>> *structure* of the smallest molecule as unit of consciousness IS a >>>>> *mental >>>>> image* A mental image having the structure of the two magnetic poles >>>>> and >>>>> the dynamic of consciousness moving within this dynamic *image* like >>>>> the >>>>> flow of plasma. Depth of layers AND mental images interact generating >>>>> consciousness. >>>>> >>>>> Vasilyuk's philosophy of practice as 1st order word that is originating >>>>> within the liminal spaces on the boundaries OF humanistic THEORY and >>>>> cultural historical THEORY of human development. >>>>> >>>>> Consciousness as the originating site of meaning-GENERATION forming >>>>> within >>>>> co-experiencing *situations*. In other words situated consciousness as >>>>> working experience. >>>>> >>>>> This is a fragment but does express a *tone* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:58 PM, Larry Purss >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Mike, the declaration that cultural mediation [in particular the >>>>>> symbolic >>>>>> level] is a key element can put aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy >>>>>> and turn to Vygotsky's own way of including this symbolic level of >>>>>> coexperiencing. Listen for the implicit movement marking the felt >>>>>> sense >>>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> >>>>>> having *fallen away* from a *source* and then finding one's way back >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> *source* [and in this return entering *deeper* levels. I am >>>>>> referring to >>>>>> page 62 of Vasiliyuk's article "Prayer Silence, Psychotherapy". >>>>>> >>>>>> Vygotsky is exploring a *deeper* layer for experiencing suffering. >>>>>> Not a >>>>>> hedonistic flight from suffering, not masochistic consolation, not >>>>>> >>>>> routine >>>>> >>>>>> platitudes [always a silver lining] but a spiritual sublimation of >>>>>> >>>>> sorrow. >>>>> >>>>>> Elevating and deepening into the layer of experiencing the *source* by >>>>>> transforming this suffering by return to the eternal. >>>>>> Vygotsky images his life as *my star* in the heavens *marked* by >>>>>> sorrow. >>>>>> His personal life and his Jewish life *marked* by sorrow. BUT this >>>>>> star >>>>>> >>>>> is >>>>> >>>>>> IN THE HEAVENS. So the meaning of suffering [the falling away from >>>>>> the >>>>>> source] is not in fleeing from the suffering but in returning to the >>>>>> *source* [the eternal, the deepest layer of consciousness] . The >>>>>> meaning >>>>>> >>>>> is >>>>> >>>>>> *found* in the ELEVATION of suffering, elevtion on the wing OF A >>>>>> PRAYER >>>>>> >>>>> TO >>>>> >>>>>> GOD. The transformation of suffering IN GOD. >>>>>> >>>>>> Vygotsky's metaphor is a personal particular *image* expressing a >>>>>> deeply >>>>>> felt layer of experience. But within the particular unique felt image >>>>>> >>>>> there >>>>> >>>>>> is a general [not universal] plot [mytheme] that is historically >>>>>> traceable developing symbolic cultural imaginary. >>>>>> >>>>>> The plot can shift what is *source* [God, sublime, the *self*] and >>>>>> this >>>>>> can be historically traced[including the work of experiencing the >>>>>> >>>>> authentic >>>>> >>>>>> true *self* in psychology]. >>>>>> >>>>>> Suzanne Kirschner has traced these transformations in this myth from >>>>>> religious origins, transformed within the Romantic movement, and >>>>>> shifting >>>>>> into psychological theories today. >>>>>> >>>>>> The point I am offering is that Vygotsky as Vasilyuk his project was >>>>>> touched by this mytheme. Peirce in his speculative musings, also was >>>>>> >>>>> pulled >>>>> >>>>>> into this mytheme. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am not suggesting this plot is fundamental or foundational but the >>>>>> yearning for this plot to be universal envelops and embodies us into >>>>>> this >>>>>> particular myth and is experienced as a deeply felt *truth*. It is >>>>>> only >>>>>> >>>>> one >>>>> >>>>>> of the *key elements* but it is a significant one of the keys to the >>>>>> philosophy of practice. >>>>>> The shift to secular themes [such as naturalism] does not change the >>>>>> underlying plot structure but does change the images that *have us*. >>>>>> Vygotsky saw his *star* ELEVATED to the heavens that transforms >>>>>> suffering >>>>>> which is the experience existing within a symbolic truth, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 5:00 PM, mike cole >>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Larry-- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for your continuing explication of your reading of Vasiliuk. >>>>>>> Putting >>>>>>> aside psychoanalysis and psychotherapy for a moment, I am totally >>>>>>> behind >>>>>>> the delaration >>>>>>> that *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT", >>>>>>> plus >>>>>>> co-experiencing as the necessary condition for that cultural >>>>>>> mediation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Larry Purss >>>>>> >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Vasilyuk is developing the *philosophy of Practice* as a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> psychotechnical >>>>> >>>>>> *system*. >>>>>>>> He says in his historical outline of the different *basic >>>>>>>> foundations* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> which psychology has relied [from suggestibility to *becoming aware* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>> >>>>>> *emancipation* to reliance on learning to reliance on experiencing to >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> current reliance on experiencing [as existential/humanistic] which >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> intersecting with todays reliance on productively producing internal >>>>>>>> psychological transformations oriented to enriching the meaning of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> being. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Vasilyuk says the task exploring the changing reliances of >>>>>>>> psychology >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> as a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> practice is not to describe the *factual* history of psychology and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> reliances of psychotherapy but to elicit the logic of history. In >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> other >>>>> >>>>>> words to *listen* to the evolving IMPLICIT plot that gives meaning and >>>>>>>> direction to the subsequent acts of the development of psychology. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> (page >>>>> >>>>>> 11) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> One of the key elements Vasilyuk identifies is the concept of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> *cultural >>>>> >>>>>> mediation of experiences*. He says: >>>>>>>> Historically cumulative experiencings with standard situations >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> crystallize >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in various SYMBOLIC FORMS; when a person experiences crises, his >>>>>>>> consciousness might get connected to these symbolic forms, an so the >>>>>>>> process of experiencing, without losing its personality-oriented >>>>>>>> uniqueness, gains ADDITIONAL DEPTH AND PRODUCTIVITY. (page 18). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is this additional depth and productivity as symbolic that >>>>>>>> Vasilyuk >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> generating within his evolving implicit *plot* oriented to >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> transforming >>>>> >>>>>> psychology in order to enrich the meaning of being. This is also the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> theme >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Vasilyuk is relying on in his other article *Prayer, Silence, and >>>>>>>> Psychotherapy*. This is the living symbol of prayer on the boundary >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> experiencing and silence/stillness. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here is Vygotsky exploring the *depth* of symbolism in his own >>>>>>>> words: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ophelia's tragedy [a personification] is exactly LIKE a lyrical >>>>>>>> accompaniment, that towers over the entire play, which is full of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> dreadful torment of INEXPRESSIBILITY, of the most profound dark, >>>>>>>> mysterious, and SACRED melodies that in some incomprehensible and >>>>>>>> miraculous way REVEAL AND EMBODY what is most exciting, most >>>>>>>> allusive, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> touchingly important, what is DEEPEST AND DARKEST, but what is most >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> tragic >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> that is OVERCOME and enlightened, and what IS MOST MYSTICAL in the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> entire >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> play. Thus tragedy turns into PRAYER .... as though with an >>>>>>>> oblational >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> expiatory and PRAYERFUL light, it gives religious illumination to >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> tragedy." (page 61 of Vasilyuk's article.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Vasiliuk then comments: "No matter how much the devotees of Marxist >>>>>>>> materialism try to conceal Vygotsky's religiosity from themselves >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> us, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> it is perfectly obvious that THESE words [LP -1st order words] >>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> only >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> have been written by a person with deep personal EXPERIENCE with >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> prayer." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (page 61). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To sum up, I am MARKING [for orientation purposes] the concept of >>>>>>>> *cultural mediation OF experience* which is a KEY ELEMENT of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> coexperiencing >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> psychotherapy AS philosophy of practice. I believe that the same >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> *symbolic >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gravity* can be expressed through changing images. The plot of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> "falling >>>>> >>>>>> away from* and *returning to* can be expressed in multiple symbols >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> such >>>>> >>>>>> as turning away from God, turning away from the natural sublime, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> turning >>>>> >>>>>> away from one's true authentic self, These images are expressing >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> different >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *reliances* but are sharing the same symbolic plot as the cultural >>>>>>>> mediation of experiencing. The IMPLICIT deepening of coexperience >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> now emerging in Russia since the 1980's that Vasilyuk is plotting >>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> be >>>>> >>>>>> implicitly enveloped in this same mytheme of falling away from *the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> source* >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and then the return to this *source. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The book *The Religious and Romantic Roots of Psychoanalysis* by >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Suzanne >>>>> >>>>>> Kirschner has plotted this particular myth flowing through Western >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> ways >>>>> >>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> experiencing the meaning of being. She is tracing the roots of the >>>>>>>> emergence of Freudian psychoanalysis but it is the more general >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> philosophy >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of practice as including this KEY ELEMENT of cultural mediation as >>>>>>>> deepening coexperiences that I am highlighting. >>>>>>>> As Vasilyuk says: the task is to LISTEN FOR *the evolving IMPLICIT >>>>>>>> plot that gives meaning and direction to the subsequent acts of the >>>>>>>> *development* of psychology [including the KEY symbolic element that >>>>>>>> *deepens* experience beyond the personal existential. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Larry >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Nov 8 10:14:10 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 10:14:10 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Doing Philosophy with kids Message-ID: Kim et al-- I have long been interested in the philosophy for children ideas of Lipmann and Mathews, as well as the potentials of afterschool activities as a space in which to enrich children's experiences with the stuff being crammed at them in school, so it was especially interesting to see the two combined. The collation of ideas from discursive psychology and Vygotskian, as well as the toolkit of methods seems to be very helpful in understanding what was transpiring. But I came away with a few questions. Re afterschool. A major question I had as I started the paper was how successful a "doing philosophy" club would be for 9-10 year olds (which I assume 4th graders to be). In our work we have always focused on the voluntary nature of participation, so kids have to want to come. Seemed like quite a challenge! Am I right that about half the kids dropped out by session 7 or was it that attendance fluctuated a lot so that you just happened to have few kids on sessions 7 and 19? With respect to the question of opportunities to learn that you raise in the introduction, what should we make of this? Only some kids like doing philosopy? And of those who liked it, were opportunities differentially taken up by different kids? It was hard for me to follow. I have a question about the use of the term, activity, which is very often brings me grief when reading Vygotsky and many others because the term seems to be polysemic within texts. For example, "The expression doing philosophy signals philosophy as an activity, like doing work (Wittgenstein) vs : "I considered an event as a set of activities bound together by a common theme or purpose." Would it be doing an injustice to your thinking to refer to events as (collective) actions that are bound together by the common activity of doing philosophy"? I was impressed after reading through the paper how importantly it contrasts with standard education where the most problematic thing a teacher can do is to assert that s/he does not know the answer to a question or that there is no right answer. It seems as if embedding a "doing philosophy" curriculum in schools that can survive in the very different set of the ground rules of transmissiong, direct-instruction regimes is to embed it in the language arts/literacy part of the curriculum, which in different ways by Mathews and Lipman. Below is one of my favorite examples of philosophy in the preschool using a book and author for whom so many core philosophical issues appear in appealing form. Thanks for the informative article. mike ----------------- The Kindergartners in Vivian Paley?s classroom are discussing the story by Leo Leoni of Tico, a wingless bird who is cared for by his black-winged friends. In the story, the wishingbird visits Tico one night and grants him a wish. Tico wishes for golden wings. When his friends see his golden wings in the morning, they are angry. They abandon him because he wants to be better than they are. Tico is upset by his friends? rejection and wants to gain readmission to the group. He discovers that he can exchange his golden feathers for black ones by performing good deeds. When at last he has replaced all the golden feathers with black ones, he is granted readmission by the flock, whose members comment, ?Now you are just like us? (Leoni, 1964). *Teacher:* I don?t think it?s fair that Tico has to give up his golden wings. *Lisa:* It is fair. See, he was nicer when he didn?t have any wings. They didn?t like him when he had gold. *Wally:* He thinks he?s better if he has golden wings. *Eddie:* He is better. *Jill:* But he?s not supposed to be better. The wishingbird was wrong to give him those wings. *Deana:* She has to give him his wish. He?s the one who shouldn?t have asked for golden wings. *Wally:* He could put black wings on top of the golden wings and try to trick them. *Deana:* They?d sneak up and see the gold. He should just give every bird one golden feather and keep one for himself. *Teacher:* Why can?t he decide for himself what kind of wings he wants? *Wally:* He has to decide to have black wings. (Paley, 1981, pp. 25?26) -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Nov 8 11:35:48 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 11:35:48 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Congratulations Men Message-ID: I have learned from my Russian colleagues that today is the International Day honoring Men, which I am told is celebrated in 70 countries including the US (Wikipedia so testifies). But I have never heard of it! Just me, or is this not a generally recognized holiday in the U.S.? mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Sun Nov 8 11:43:45 2015 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:43:45 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: May it be a post-Soviet replacement for Great October Revolution, which is unjustly liquidated and whose liquidation left the whole humanity deeply hopeless about future... On 8 November 2015 at 21:35, mike cole wrote: > I have learned from my Russian colleagues that today is the International > Day honoring Men, which I am told is celebrated in 70 countries including > the US (Wikipedia so testifies). But I have never heard of it! Just me, or > is this > not a generally recognized holiday in the U.S.? > mike > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From bella.kotik@gmail.com Sun Nov 8 11:47:38 2015 From: bella.kotik@gmail.com (Bella Kotik-Friedgut) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:47:38 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Never heard about it in Russia too, it was October revolution day and now there is some need to find another reason to celebrate because people are used to have holidays in the beginning of November Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 9:35 PM, mike cole wrote: > I have learned from my Russian colleagues that today is the International > Day honoring Men, which I am told is celebrated in 70 countries including > the US (Wikipedia so testifies). But I have never heard of it! Just me, or > is this > not a generally recognized holiday in the U.S.? > mike > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From rakahu@utu.fi Sun Nov 8 11:58:37 2015 From: rakahu@utu.fi (Rauno Huttunen) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 19:58:37 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, In Finland it is Father's Day. Rauno Huttunen L?hetetty iPadista > mike cole kirjoitti 8.11.2015 kello 21.37: > > I have learned from my Russian colleagues that today is the International > Day honoring Men, which I am told is celebrated in 70 countries including > the US (Wikipedia so testifies). But I have never heard of it! Just me, or > is this > not a generally recognized holiday in the U.S.? > mike > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From hans.knutagard@ingressus.se Sun Nov 8 12:04:09 2015 From: hans.knutagard@ingressus.se (=?utf-8?Q?Hans_Knutag=C3=A5rd?=) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:04:09 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In Sweden we celebrate Fathers day evry year the Sunday in November between the 8 and 14. It started 1931 as a respons to Mother's day in May (in Sweden). > 8 nov. 2015 kl. 20:58 skrev Rauno Huttunen : > > Hello, > > In Finland it is Father's Day. > > Rauno Huttunen > > L?hetetty iPadista > >> mike cole kirjoitti 8.11.2015 kello 21.37: >> >> I have learned from my Russian colleagues that today is the International >> Day honoring Men, which I am told is celebrated in 70 countries including >> the US (Wikipedia so testifies). But I have never heard of it! Just me, or >> is this >> not a generally recognized holiday in the U.S.? >> mike >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Nov 8 16:51:33 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:51:33 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues -Here is the latest word on International Mens day and its presence in the United States thanks to a hint about checking Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Men%27s_Day. Is it just me, or does anyone out there think that some thought should be giving to gender neutral holidays instead of the normative order? For example, how about a Parents Day and a Grandparents day. With time off and a little family time, whatever that family might be. mike On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Hans Knutag?rd wrote: > In Sweden we celebrate Fathers day evry year the Sunday in November > between the 8 and 14. It started 1931 as a respons to Mother's day in May > (in Sweden). > > > 8 nov. 2015 kl. 20:58 skrev Rauno Huttunen : > > > > Hello, > > > > In Finland it is Father's Day. > > > > Rauno Huttunen > > > > L?hetetty iPadista > > > >> mike cole kirjoitti 8.11.2015 kello 21.37: > >> > >> I have learned from my Russian colleagues that today is the > International > >> Day honoring Men, which I am told is celebrated in 70 countries > including > >> the US (Wikipedia so testifies). But I have never heard of it! Just me, > or > >> is this > >> not a generally recognized holiday in the U.S.? > >> mike > >> > >> -- > >> > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From ablunden@mira.net Sun Nov 8 16:55:38 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 11:55:38 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <563FEF0A.8050306@mira.net> I think the point is that holidays have *always* been fixed to reinforce the normative order. The only exception I know is May Day, which is not a holiday here in Oz. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 9/11/2015 11:51 AM, mike cole wrote: > Dear Colleagues -Here is the latest word on International Mens day and its > presence in the United States thanks to a hint about checking Wikipedia: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Men%27s_Day. > > Is it just me, or does anyone out there think that some thought should be > giving to gender neutral holidays instead of the normative order? For > example, how about a Parents Day and a Grandparents day. With time off and > a little family time, whatever that family might be. > > mike > > On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Hans Knutag?rd > wrote: >> In Sweden we celebrate Fathers day evry year the Sunday in November >> between the 8 and 14. It started 1931 as a respons to Mother's day in May >> (in Sweden). >> >>> 8 nov. 2015 kl. 20:58 skrev Rauno Huttunen : >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> In Finland it is Father's Day. >>> >>> Rauno Huttunen >>> >>> L?hetetty iPadista >>> >>>> mike cole kirjoitti 8.11.2015 kello 21.37: >>>> >>>> I have learned from my Russian colleagues that today is the >> International >>>> Day honoring Men, which I am told is celebrated in 70 countries >> including >>>> the US (Wikipedia so testifies). But I have never heard of it! Just me, >> or >>>> is this >>>> not a generally recognized holiday in the U.S.? >>>> mike >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >> > From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Nov 8 17:13:26 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 01:13:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men In-Reply-To: <563FEF0A.8050306@mira.net> References: , <563FEF0A.8050306@mira.net> Message-ID: Hello wonderful XMCArs! Many good points made about a Men's day (and its legitimacy...) I'd say how about a Human day? And then we might have Non-human day? We already have an Earth day? So then that would leave maybe an Ocean day, a Sky day, a Fire day and maybe... an Ether day? Then we'll have all the elements covered? Also such holidays are non-sectarian, non-gendered, so it shouldn't be controversial. At least this is my hope to all the doubting Thomases out there. Kind regards, Annalisa From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Nov 8 17:17:22 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 01:17:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men In-Reply-To: <563FEF0A.8050306@mira.net> References: <563FEF0A.8050306@mira.net> Message-ID: I don't know. The best thing that I can think of that is consonant with the media of 'a day' is the recognition of the cultural notion of time. Putting it in that context, is does seem the case that some of long-standing holy-days do implicate certain constants (relative to our cultures and their histories), e.g. the equinoctes. Generally I have an aversion to such artifices as celebratory days, but I think I might participate in something like a children's day, thereby encouraging some reflection on at least a generational timescale in contrast to the 24hour/5year media-politicking. Best, Huw On 9 November 2015 at 00:55, Andy Blunden wrote: > I think the point is that holidays have *always* been fixed to reinforce > the normative order. The only exception I know is May Day, which is not a > holiday here in Oz. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > On 9/11/2015 11:51 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues -Here is the latest word on International Mens day and its >> presence in the United States thanks to a hint about checking Wikipedia: >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Men%27s_Day. >> >> Is it just me, or does anyone out there think that some thought should be >> giving to gender neutral holidays instead of the normative order? For >> example, how about a Parents Day and a Grandparents day. With time off and >> a little family time, whatever that family might be. >> >> mike >> >> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Hans Knutag?rd < >> hans.knutagard@ingressus.se >> >>> wrote: >>> In Sweden we celebrate Fathers day evry year the Sunday in November >>> between the 8 and 14. It started 1931 as a respons to Mother's day in May >>> (in Sweden). >>> >>> 8 nov. 2015 kl. 20:58 skrev Rauno Huttunen : >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> In Finland it is Father's Day. >>>> >>>> Rauno Huttunen >>>> >>>> L?hetetty iPadista >>>> >>>> mike cole kirjoitti 8.11.2015 kello 21.37: >>>>> >>>>> I have learned from my Russian colleagues that today is the >>>>> >>>> International >>> >>>> Day honoring Men, which I am told is celebrated in 70 countries >>>>> >>>> including >>> >>>> the US (Wikipedia so testifies). But I have never heard of it! Just me, >>>>> >>>> or >>> >>>> is this >>>>> not a generally recognized holiday in the U.S.? >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Sun Nov 8 17:21:31 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 12:21:31 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men In-Reply-To: References: <563FEF0A.8050306@mira.net> Message-ID: <563FF51B.3010309@mira.net> IN his book on teaching deaf/blind kids, A. Meshcheryakov says they used teh celebration of national holidays as a way of imparting a sense of time. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 9/11/2015 12:17 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > I don't know. The best thing that I can think of that is > consonant with the media of 'a day' is the recognition of > the cultural notion of time. Putting it in that context, > is does seem the case that some of long-standing holy-days > do implicate certain constants (relative to our cultures > and their histories), e.g. the equinoctes. > > Generally I have an aversion to such artifices as > celebratory days, but I think I might participate in > something like a children's day, thereby encouraging some > reflection on at least a generational timescale in > contrast to the 24hour/5year media-politicking. > > Best, > Huw > > > > > > > On 9 November 2015 at 00:55, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > I think the point is that holidays have *always* been > fixed to reinforce the normative order. The only > exception I know is May Day, which is not a holiday > here in Oz. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > On 9/11/2015 11:51 AM, mike cole wrote: > > Dear Colleagues -Here is the latest word on > International Mens day and its > presence in the United States thanks to a hint > about checking Wikipedia: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Men%27s_Day. > > Is it just me, or does anyone out there think that > some thought should be > giving to gender neutral holidays instead of the > normative order? For > example, how about a Parents Day and a > Grandparents day. With time off and > a little family time, whatever that family might be. > > mike > > On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Hans Knutag?rd > > > wrote: > In Sweden we celebrate Fathers day evry year > the Sunday in November > between the 8 and 14. It started 1931 as a > respons to Mother's day in May > (in Sweden). > > 8 nov. 2015 kl. 20:58 skrev Rauno Huttunen > >: > > Hello, > > In Finland it is Father's Day. > > Rauno Huttunen > > L?hetetty iPadista > > mike cole > kirjoitti > 8.11.2015 kello 21.37: > > I have learned from my Russian > colleagues that today is the > > International > > Day honoring Men, which I am told is > celebrated in 70 countries > > including > > the US (Wikipedia so testifies). But I > have never heard of it! Just me, > > or > > is this > not a generally recognized holiday in > the U.S.? > mike > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to > deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Nov 8 17:31:23 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 01:31:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men In-Reply-To: <563FF51B.3010309@mira.net> References: <563FEF0A.8050306@mira.net> <563FF51B.3010309@mira.net> Message-ID: And, if I recall correctly, a sense of specialness of the day in conjunction with a community-wide collective activity (cleaning the rooms, including moving heavy furniture to do so). Huw On 9 November 2015 at 01:21, Andy Blunden wrote: > IN his book on teaching deaf/blind kids, A. Meshcheryakov says they used > teh celebration of national holidays as a way of imparting a sense of time. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 9/11/2015 12:17 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> I don't know. The best thing that I can think of that is consonant with >> the media of 'a day' is the recognition of the cultural notion of time. >> Putting it in that context, is does seem the case that some of >> long-standing holy-days do implicate certain constants (relative to our >> cultures and their histories), e.g. the equinoctes. >> >> Generally I have an aversion to such artifices as celebratory days, but I >> think I might participate in something like a children's day, thereby >> encouraging some reflection on at least a generational timescale in >> contrast to the 24hour/5year media-politicking. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 9 November 2015 at 00:55, Andy Blunden > ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> I think the point is that holidays have *always* been >> fixed to reinforce the normative order. The only >> exception I know is May Day, which is not a holiday >> here in Oz. >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> On 9/11/2015 11:51 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues -Here is the latest word on >> International Mens day and its >> presence in the United States thanks to a hint >> about checking Wikipedia: >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Men%27s_Day. >> >> Is it just me, or does anyone out there think that >> some thought should be >> giving to gender neutral holidays instead of the >> normative order? For >> example, how about a Parents Day and a >> Grandparents day. With time off and >> a little family time, whatever that family might be. >> >> mike >> >> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Hans Knutag?rd >> > >> >> wrote: >> In Sweden we celebrate Fathers day evry year >> the Sunday in November >> between the 8 and 14. It started 1931 as a >> respons to Mother's day in May >> (in Sweden). >> >> 8 nov. 2015 kl. 20:58 skrev Rauno Huttunen >> >: >> >> Hello, >> >> In Finland it is Father's Day. >> >> Rauno Huttunen >> >> L?hetetty iPadista >> >> mike cole > > kirjoitti >> 8.11.2015 kello 21.37: >> >> I have learned from my Russian >> colleagues that today is the >> >> International >> >> Day honoring Men, which I am told is >> celebrated in 70 countries >> >> including >> >> the US (Wikipedia so testifies). But I >> have never heard of it! Just me, >> >> or >> >> is this >> not a generally recognized holiday in >> the U.S.? >> mike >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to >> deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Nov 8 17:53:31 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:53:31 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men In-Reply-To: References: <563FEF0A.8050306@mira.net> <563FF51B.3010309@mira.net> Message-ID: I was thinking about a children's day, too, Huw. When I was a kid, Nov. 11th was Armistice Day. Then it became Memorial Day, now it is Veterans day. Benjamin's picture of the Angel of History "to a T" as we blokes say. Mike PS- All is not gloom vis a vis Nov. 11th. It is the day I met my wife! :-) On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > And, if I recall correctly, a sense of specialness of the day in > conjunction with a community-wide collective activity (cleaning the rooms, > including moving heavy furniture to do so). > > Huw > > On 9 November 2015 at 01:21, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > IN his book on teaching deaf/blind kids, A. Meshcheryakov says they used > > teh celebration of national holidays as a way of imparting a sense of > time. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > On 9/11/2015 12:17 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > >> I don't know. The best thing that I can think of that is consonant with > >> the media of 'a day' is the recognition of the cultural notion of time. > >> Putting it in that context, is does seem the case that some of > >> long-standing holy-days do implicate certain constants (relative to our > >> cultures and their histories), e.g. the equinoctes. > >> > >> Generally I have an aversion to such artifices as celebratory days, but > I > >> think I might participate in something like a children's day, thereby > >> encouraging some reflection on at least a generational timescale in > >> contrast to the 24hour/5year media-politicking. > >> > >> Best, > >> Huw > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 9 November 2015 at 00:55, Andy Blunden >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > >> > >> I think the point is that holidays have *always* been > >> fixed to reinforce the normative order. The only > >> exception I know is May Day, which is not a holiday > >> here in Oz. > >> Andy > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> On 9/11/2015 11:51 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> > >> Dear Colleagues -Here is the latest word on > >> International Mens day and its > >> presence in the United States thanks to a hint > >> about checking Wikipedia: > >> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Men%27s_Day. > >> > >> Is it just me, or does anyone out there think that > >> some thought should be > >> giving to gender neutral holidays instead of the > >> normative order? For > >> example, how about a Parents Day and a > >> Grandparents day. With time off and > >> a little family time, whatever that family might be. > >> > >> mike > >> > >> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Hans Knutag?rd > >> >> > >> > >> wrote: > >> In Sweden we celebrate Fathers day evry year > >> the Sunday in November > >> between the 8 and 14. It started 1931 as a > >> respons to Mother's day in May > >> (in Sweden). > >> > >> 8 nov. 2015 kl. 20:58 skrev Rauno Huttunen > >> >: > >> > >> Hello, > >> > >> In Finland it is Father's Day. > >> > >> Rauno Huttunen > >> > >> L?hetetty iPadista > >> > >> mike cole >> > kirjoitti > >> 8.11.2015 kello 21.37: > >> > >> I have learned from my Russian > >> colleagues that today is the > >> > >> International > >> > >> Day honoring Men, which I am told is > >> celebrated in 70 countries > >> > >> including > >> > >> the US (Wikipedia so testifies). But I > >> have never heard of it! Just me, > >> > >> or > >> > >> is this > >> not a generally recognized holiday in > >> the U.S.? > >> mike > >> > >> -- > >> > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to > >> deal as a natural science with an > >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Nov 8 18:16:58 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 02:16:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men In-Reply-To: References: <563FEF0A.8050306@mira.net> <563FF51B.3010309@mira.net> Message-ID: This one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelus_Novus I felt it was from Klee immediately, seeing a lion and phoenix chimera. A good emblem for sure. But, by the way, I was thinking predominantly one's own childhood as the idea with a bridge to the children now. So, for the universally minded it is so. Huw On 9 November 2015 at 01:53, mike cole wrote: > I was thinking about a children's day, too, Huw. > > When I was a kid, Nov. 11th was Armistice Day. Then it became Memorial Day, > now it is Veterans day. Benjamin's picture of the Angel of History "to a T" > as we > blokes say. > > Mike > PS- All is not gloom vis a vis Nov. 11th. It is the day I met my wife! :-) > > On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > And, if I recall correctly, a sense of specialness of the day in > > conjunction with a community-wide collective activity (cleaning the > rooms, > > including moving heavy furniture to do so). > > > > Huw > > > > On 9 November 2015 at 01:21, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > > IN his book on teaching deaf/blind kids, A. Meshcheryakov says they > used > > > teh celebration of national holidays as a way of imparting a sense of > > time. > > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > On 9/11/2015 12:17 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > > > >> I don't know. The best thing that I can think of that is consonant > with > > >> the media of 'a day' is the recognition of the cultural notion of > time. > > >> Putting it in that context, is does seem the case that some of > > >> long-standing holy-days do implicate certain constants (relative to > our > > >> cultures and their histories), e.g. the equinoctes. > > >> > > >> Generally I have an aversion to such artifices as celebratory days, > but > > I > > >> think I might participate in something like a children's day, thereby > > >> encouraging some reflection on at least a generational timescale in > > >> contrast to the 24hour/5year media-politicking. > > >> > > >> Best, > > >> Huw > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On 9 November 2015 at 00:55, Andy Blunden > >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > > >> > > >> I think the point is that holidays have *always* been > > >> fixed to reinforce the normative order. The only > > >> exception I know is May Day, which is not a holiday > > >> here in Oz. > > >> Andy > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> *Andy Blunden* > > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >> > > >> > > >> On 9/11/2015 11:51 AM, mike cole wrote: > > >> > > >> Dear Colleagues -Here is the latest word on > > >> International Mens day and its > > >> presence in the United States thanks to a hint > > >> about checking Wikipedia: > > >> > > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Men%27s_Day. > > >> > > >> Is it just me, or does anyone out there think that > > >> some thought should be > > >> giving to gender neutral holidays instead of the > > >> normative order? For > > >> example, how about a Parents Day and a > > >> Grandparents day. With time off and > > >> a little family time, whatever that family might be. > > >> > > >> mike > > >> > > >> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Hans Knutag?rd > > >> > >> > > >> > > >> wrote: > > >> In Sweden we celebrate Fathers day evry year > > >> the Sunday in November > > >> between the 8 and 14. It started 1931 as a > > >> respons to Mother's day in May > > >> (in Sweden). > > >> > > >> 8 nov. 2015 kl. 20:58 skrev Rauno Huttunen > > >> >: > > >> > > >> Hello, > > >> > > >> In Finland it is Father's Day. > > >> > > >> Rauno Huttunen > > >> > > >> L?hetetty iPadista > > >> > > >> mike cole > >> > kirjoitti > > >> 8.11.2015 kello 21.37: > > >> > > >> I have learned from my Russian > > >> colleagues that today is the > > >> > > >> International > > >> > > >> Day honoring Men, which I am told is > > >> celebrated in 70 countries > > >> > > >> including > > >> > > >> the US (Wikipedia so testifies). But I > > >> have never heard of it! Just me, > > >> > > >> or > > >> > > >> is this > > >> not a generally recognized holiday in > > >> the U.S.? > > >> mike > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to > > >> deal as a natural science with an > > >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Nov 8 18:18:10 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 02:18:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men In-Reply-To: References: <563FEF0A.8050306@mira.net> <563FF51B.3010309@mira.net> Message-ID: Erm, the chimera performing a sanctifying act, I meant to say. V. nice. Huw On 9 November 2015 at 02:16, Huw Lloyd wrote: > This one? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelus_Novus > > I felt it was from Klee immediately, seeing a lion and phoenix chimera. A > good emblem for sure. But, by the way, I was thinking predominantly one's > own childhood as the idea with a bridge to the children now. So, for the > universally minded it is so. > > Huw > > > On 9 November 2015 at 01:53, mike cole wrote: > >> I was thinking about a children's day, too, Huw. >> >> When I was a kid, Nov. 11th was Armistice Day. Then it became Memorial >> Day, >> now it is Veterans day. Benjamin's picture of the Angel of History "to a >> T" >> as we >> blokes say. >> >> Mike >> PS- All is not gloom vis a vis Nov. 11th. It is the day I met my wife! >> :-) >> >> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >> > And, if I recall correctly, a sense of specialness of the day in >> > conjunction with a community-wide collective activity (cleaning the >> rooms, >> > including moving heavy furniture to do so). >> > >> > Huw >> > >> > On 9 November 2015 at 01:21, Andy Blunden wrote: >> > >> > > IN his book on teaching deaf/blind kids, A. Meshcheryakov says they >> used >> > > teh celebration of national holidays as a way of imparting a sense of >> > time. >> > > Andy >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > > *Andy Blunden* >> > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> > > On 9/11/2015 12:17 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: >> > > >> > >> I don't know. The best thing that I can think of that is consonant >> with >> > >> the media of 'a day' is the recognition of the cultural notion of >> time. >> > >> Putting it in that context, is does seem the case that some of >> > >> long-standing holy-days do implicate certain constants (relative to >> our >> > >> cultures and their histories), e.g. the equinoctes. >> > >> >> > >> Generally I have an aversion to such artifices as celebratory days, >> but >> > I >> > >> think I might participate in something like a children's day, thereby >> > >> encouraging some reflection on at least a generational timescale in >> > >> contrast to the 24hour/5year media-politicking. >> > >> >> > >> Best, >> > >> Huw >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On 9 November 2015 at 00:55, Andy Blunden > > > >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> I think the point is that holidays have *always* been >> > >> fixed to reinforce the normative order. The only >> > >> exception I know is May Day, which is not a holiday >> > >> here in Oz. >> > >> Andy >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >> *Andy Blunden* >> > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On 9/11/2015 11:51 AM, mike cole wrote: >> > >> >> > >> Dear Colleagues -Here is the latest word on >> > >> International Mens day and its >> > >> presence in the United States thanks to a hint >> > >> about checking Wikipedia: >> > >> >> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Men%27s_Day. >> > >> >> > >> Is it just me, or does anyone out there think that >> > >> some thought should be >> > >> giving to gender neutral holidays instead of the >> > >> normative order? For >> > >> example, how about a Parents Day and a >> > >> Grandparents day. With time off and >> > >> a little family time, whatever that family might be. >> > >> >> > >> mike >> > >> >> > >> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Hans Knutag?rd >> > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> wrote: >> > >> In Sweden we celebrate Fathers day evry year >> > >> the Sunday in November >> > >> between the 8 and 14. It started 1931 as a >> > >> respons to Mother's day in May >> > >> (in Sweden). >> > >> >> > >> 8 nov. 2015 kl. 20:58 skrev Rauno Huttunen >> > >> >: >> > >> >> > >> Hello, >> > >> >> > >> In Finland it is Father's Day. >> > >> >> > >> Rauno Huttunen >> > >> >> > >> L?hetetty iPadista >> > >> >> > >> mike cole > > >> > kirjoitti >> > >> 8.11.2015 kello 21.37: >> > >> >> > >> I have learned from my Russian >> > >> colleagues that today is the >> > >> >> > >> International >> > >> >> > >> Day honoring Men, which I am told is >> > >> celebrated in 70 countries >> > >> >> > >> including >> > >> >> > >> the US (Wikipedia so testifies). But I >> > >> have never heard of it! Just me, >> > >> >> > >> or >> > >> >> > >> is this >> > >> not a generally recognized holiday in >> > >> the U.S.? >> > >> mike >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > >> >> > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to >> > >> deal as a natural science with an >> > >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> > > From kskinner@lsu.edu Sun Nov 8 19:04:30 2015 From: kskinner@lsu.edu (Kim Skinner) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:04:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] In-Reply-To: References: <6ce840cbf660664483f1af5cd46f9f5d.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu>, Message-ID: Hi Larry, I appreciate your comments and agree with your complication of "space" and "reasons." The philosophy club was indeed much more than a dialogic space, though in this particular manuscript I did focus on the words of the teacher and children. The use and function of the physical space, for example, was transformed after school by the teacher and children when they moved furniture to sit in a circle on the floor and created anchor charts as artifacts and reminders of the differentiated utility of this space after the last bell. I agree that by focusing on the rules seems counterintuitive as it was, after all, the "rules" of school discourse the teacher was trying to escape. However, as the philosophy club only met once a week, the "new rules" were important reminders for both the children and the teacher who transitioned from the school day IRE discourse to a peer led whole group conversation with the ringing of a bell. While the ground rules appear to delimit practices, in actuality their explicitness opened up this creative, situational, and dialogic space. Kim Kim Skinner, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Literacy Studies Louisiana State University School of Education 226 Peabody Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803 225.578.6709 ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+kskinner=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer Sent: Sunday, November 1, 2015 10:31 AM To: Goncu, Artin Cc: Activity eXtended Mind Culture Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Thanks Artin!! :) On 2015-10-31, at 10:32 AM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > I join Ana and Andy, in thanking you, Jen and all, for your contributions. > The titles look great and I am looking forward to the discussions. All > the best, ag > > ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion > From: "Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer" > Date: Sat, October 31, 2015 11:36 am > To: ablunden@mira.net > "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Cc: "W. Douglas Baker" > "Negar Amini" > "Wendy Turgeon" > "Hendricks, Christina" > "Weber, Barbara" > "Judith Green" > "M. Dobber" > "M. van der Veen" > "Daniel Anderson" > "H.J.M. van Oers" > "Susan Gardner" > "Peter Costello" > "Natalie Fletcher" > "Claire Alkouatli" > "Kym Maclaren" > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for this, Andy, and thanks go to the lead editor Barbara Weber on > this issue as well! > > For folks who would like to know more about it, the editorial is also > available for free. There are 6 articles and 6 commentaries-we were > working toward a more dialogic feel-that move across and between > philosophy, psychology, and education. In addition, we were able to > include a book review on Jan Derry's fascinating book, Vygotsky, > philosophy and education. > > Our intention was to look at intersections of philosophy, psychology, and > education and we were very fortunate to locate authors with both similar > intentions and outstanding research to contribute. The congratulations go > to them: > > Wendy Turgeon > Christina Hendricks > Eva Marsal > Chiel van der Veen, Claudia van Kruistum, & Sarah Michaels > Marjolein Dobber & Bert van Oers > Claire Alkouatli, Negar Amini, and Jen > Kim Skinner > Doug Baker & Judith Green > Kym Maclaren > Peter Costello > Susan Gardner & Daniel Anderson > Natalie Fletcher > Arthur Wolf > > Thanks to everyone! > > Now, on to discussions of Kim Skinner's article!! > > Best - jen > > > > On 2015-10-30, at 10:17 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Looks like a stunning issue, Jen! >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> On 31/10/2015 2:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> Jennifer and Kim, >>> This months article is sure to generate conversation. >>> The 2nd paragraph on page 358 caught my attention. >>> "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for their >>> claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority and >>> reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on reasoning >>> increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue transformed through >>> group members practising in dialogue with each other." >>> >>> The question this generates concerns the notion of *space* of reasons. I >>> hear a transfiguration from *foundational rule based* space TO *dialogical >>> space* OF reasons. >>> >>> However are there other possible *spaces* of reason beyond either >>> foundational or dialogical *spaces* of reason. For example *situational >>> spaces* or *creative spaces* OF reason. >>> Using a dramatical metaphor or table metaphor could the dialogical *space >>> of reasons* be a particular type of situation as answer to foundational >>> rule based reason, but the deeper truth is that we are setting the table >>> for multiple fluid "spaces* of reasoning. To justify claims may be deeply >>> implicated WITHIN plural notions of *spaces*. >>> Not either foundational or dialogical *spaces* but expanding to multiple >>> mixtures of various notions of reasons. >>> This in no way questions dialogical spaces of reason [as thinking] but >>> invites deeper exploration to how we orient to these multiple *spaces* >>> [each of which offers justifications.] >>> >>> To describe justification as re- semblance to a board game focuses >>> attention on the RULES of the game. THIS is a norm based image of >>> reasoning justifying moving *points* on the board as preconceived >>> grid. Situational *spaces* of reason are more creative *spaces* of >>> justification that are also historically implicated but more open to >>> novelty. >>> The question of justification is complicated and the relation of the 4 >>> types of justification far more entangled than reason [foundational or >>> dialogical] overcoming the other 3 types assumes. >>> >>> The orientation moving away from foundational spaces of reason to >>> dialogical spaces of reason is a profound transfiguration. It opens the >>> space of reason to creative novelty. It is possible to continue going >>> deeper to explore the profound depth of situations as *spaces* of reason. >>> >>> This months journal is moving across traditions and authorities and >>> experiences. The concept of *situational* spaces is the Pragmatic >>> tradition. Philosophical hermeneutics uses the concept *spaces of play*. >>> Are concepts merely *resources* or do they exhibit other characteristics?. >>> Dewey explored two notions of "have" >>> A possessive "have" and a relational "have" [We have a friend]. We cannot >>> possess *spaces* These *third* spaces have us and we *undergo* experiences >>> WITHIN these spaces. >>> >>> The *space* of reasons also has this quality of being more than > "resources" >>> to use in our practices of justification. Reasons are more than tools of >>> self management and self discipline. They are also *spaces* which have us. >>> >>> Reason is being re-thought and re-worked and will need multiple *settings* >>> to stage this activity. The space of reasons as dialogical is one >>> particular and valid and true space of justification. It is not the only >>> space. >>> Generating notions of *situations* and *spaces of play* and *zones* are >>> speaking this multi-verse being acted out as dramas. >>> >>> The after school setting created a particular situation opening up a >>> particular stage like *space* for generating particular types of >>> justification. It was a *third* space in which the dialogical comes to the >>> foreground. Ground is a fluid concept as is the concept of *concrete* >>> experience. Creative worlds emerge or unfold within these *spaces* but > they >>> are not fundamentally grounded or permanently rule based. These worlds are >>> foregrounded and backgrounded within particular situations [spaces of > play] >>> but they are primarily unknown on their way to be/coming known without > end. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < >>> j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear XMCAers, >>>> >>>> The special issue of Mind, Culture, and Activity on Engaged Philosophical >>>> Inquiry is up and running. >>>> >>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current >>>> >>>> Kim Skinner, author of Acts of thinking: At school but not during school, >>>> has graciously agreed to make herself available for dialogue about her >>>> article on XMCA. >>>> >>>> If you have a moment to access and review the article, perhaps we can >>>> begin discussion early or mid next week? >>>> >>>> Best to all, jen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > Professor Emeritus, > University of Illinois at Chicago > College of Education M/C 147 > 1040 W. Harrison St. > Chicago, IL 60607 > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Nov 8 19:10:23 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:10:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men In-Reply-To: References: <563FEF0A.8050306@mira.net> <563FF51B.3010309@mira.net> Message-ID: And who was it that said that the child is the father of the man -- maybe I read that from Ilyenkov? Huw On 9 November 2015 at 02:18, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Erm, the chimera performing a sanctifying act, I meant to say. V. nice. > > Huw > > On 9 November 2015 at 02:16, Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> This one? >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelus_Novus >> >> I felt it was from Klee immediately, seeing a lion and phoenix chimera. >> A good emblem for sure. But, by the way, I was thinking predominantly >> one's own childhood as the idea with a bridge to the children now. So, for >> the universally minded it is so. >> >> Huw >> >> >> On 9 November 2015 at 01:53, mike cole wrote: >> >>> I was thinking about a children's day, too, Huw. >>> >>> When I was a kid, Nov. 11th was Armistice Day. Then it became Memorial >>> Day, >>> now it is Veterans day. Benjamin's picture of the Angel of History "to a >>> T" >>> as we >>> blokes say. >>> >>> Mike >>> PS- All is not gloom vis a vis Nov. 11th. It is the day I met my wife! >>> :-) >>> >>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Huw Lloyd >>> wrote: >>> >>> > And, if I recall correctly, a sense of specialness of the day in >>> > conjunction with a community-wide collective activity (cleaning the >>> rooms, >>> > including moving heavy furniture to do so). >>> > >>> > Huw >>> > >>> > On 9 November 2015 at 01:21, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> > >>> > > IN his book on teaching deaf/blind kids, A. Meshcheryakov says they >>> used >>> > > teh celebration of national holidays as a way of imparting a sense of >>> > time. >>> > > Andy >>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> > > *Andy Blunden* >>> > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> > > On 9/11/2015 12:17 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: >>> > > >>> > >> I don't know. The best thing that I can think of that is consonant >>> with >>> > >> the media of 'a day' is the recognition of the cultural notion of >>> time. >>> > >> Putting it in that context, is does seem the case that some of >>> > >> long-standing holy-days do implicate certain constants (relative to >>> our >>> > >> cultures and their histories), e.g. the equinoctes. >>> > >> >>> > >> Generally I have an aversion to such artifices as celebratory days, >>> but >>> > I >>> > >> think I might participate in something like a children's day, >>> thereby >>> > >> encouraging some reflection on at least a generational timescale in >>> > >> contrast to the 24hour/5year media-politicking. >>> > >> >>> > >> Best, >>> > >> Huw >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> On 9 November 2015 at 00:55, Andy Blunden >> >> > >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >>> > >> >>> > >> I think the point is that holidays have *always* been >>> > >> fixed to reinforce the normative order. The only >>> > >> exception I know is May Day, which is not a holiday >>> > >> here in Oz. >>> > >> Andy >>> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> > >> *Andy Blunden* >>> > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> On 9/11/2015 11:51 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> > >> >>> > >> Dear Colleagues -Here is the latest word on >>> > >> International Mens day and its >>> > >> presence in the United States thanks to a hint >>> > >> about checking Wikipedia: >>> > >> >>> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Men%27s_Day. >>> > >> >>> > >> Is it just me, or does anyone out there think that >>> > >> some thought should be >>> > >> giving to gender neutral holidays instead of the >>> > >> normative order? For >>> > >> example, how about a Parents Day and a >>> > >> Grandparents day. With time off and >>> > >> a little family time, whatever that family might be. >>> > >> >>> > >> mike >>> > >> >>> > >> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Hans Knutag?rd >>> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> wrote: >>> > >> In Sweden we celebrate Fathers day evry year >>> > >> the Sunday in November >>> > >> between the 8 and 14. It started 1931 as a >>> > >> respons to Mother's day in May >>> > >> (in Sweden). >>> > >> >>> > >> 8 nov. 2015 kl. 20:58 skrev Rauno Huttunen >>> > >> >: >>> > >> >>> > >> Hello, >>> > >> >>> > >> In Finland it is Father's Day. >>> > >> >>> > >> Rauno Huttunen >>> > >> >>> > >> L?hetetty iPadista >>> > >> >>> > >> mike cole >> > >> > kirjoitti >>> > >> 8.11.2015 kello 21.37: >>> > >> >>> > >> I have learned from my Russian >>> > >> colleagues that today is the >>> > >> >>> > >> International >>> > >> >>> > >> Day honoring Men, which I am told is >>> > >> celebrated in 70 countries >>> > >> >>> > >> including >>> > >> >>> > >> the US (Wikipedia so testifies). But I >>> > >> have never heard of it! Just me, >>> > >> >>> > >> or >>> > >> >>> > >> is this >>> > >> not a generally recognized holiday in >>> > >> the U.S.? >>> > >> mike >>> > >> >>> > >> -- >>> > >> >>> > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to >>> > >> deal as a natural science with an >>> > >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>> >> >> > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Nov 8 19:24:10 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 19:24:10 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men In-Reply-To: References: <563FEF0A.8050306@mira.net> <563FF51B.3010309@mira.net> Message-ID: Try Wordsworth, Huw, re child-man (aka grownup). The Benjamin is really amazing. That's it. How he saw this in Klee is amazing...... to me. mike On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 7:10 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > And who was it that said that the child is the father of the man -- maybe I > read that from Ilyenkov? > > Huw > > > > On 9 November 2015 at 02:18, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > Erm, the chimera performing a sanctifying act, I meant to say. V. nice. > > > > Huw > > > > On 9 November 2015 at 02:16, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > >> This one? > >> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelus_Novus > >> > >> I felt it was from Klee immediately, seeing a lion and phoenix chimera. > >> A good emblem for sure. But, by the way, I was thinking predominantly > >> one's own childhood as the idea with a bridge to the children now. So, > for > >> the universally minded it is so. > >> > >> Huw > >> > >> > >> On 9 November 2015 at 01:53, mike cole wrote: > >> > >>> I was thinking about a children's day, too, Huw. > >>> > >>> When I was a kid, Nov. 11th was Armistice Day. Then it became Memorial > >>> Day, > >>> now it is Veterans day. Benjamin's picture of the Angel of History "to > a > >>> T" > >>> as we > >>> blokes say. > >>> > >>> Mike > >>> PS- All is not gloom vis a vis Nov. 11th. It is the day I met my wife! > >>> :-) > >>> > >>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Huw Lloyd > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> > And, if I recall correctly, a sense of specialness of the day in > >>> > conjunction with a community-wide collective activity (cleaning the > >>> rooms, > >>> > including moving heavy furniture to do so). > >>> > > >>> > Huw > >>> > > >>> > On 9 November 2015 at 01:21, Andy Blunden wrote: > >>> > > >>> > > IN his book on teaching deaf/blind kids, A. Meshcheryakov says they > >>> used > >>> > > teh celebration of national holidays as a way of imparting a sense > of > >>> > time. > >>> > > Andy > >>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > > *Andy Blunden* > >>> > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>> > > On 9/11/2015 12:17 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > >> I don't know. The best thing that I can think of that is > consonant > >>> with > >>> > >> the media of 'a day' is the recognition of the cultural notion of > >>> time. > >>> > >> Putting it in that context, is does seem the case that some of > >>> > >> long-standing holy-days do implicate certain constants (relative > to > >>> our > >>> > >> cultures and their histories), e.g. the equinoctes. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Generally I have an aversion to such artifices as celebratory > days, > >>> but > >>> > I > >>> > >> think I might participate in something like a children's day, > >>> thereby > >>> > >> encouraging some reflection on at least a generational timescale > in > >>> > >> contrast to the 24hour/5year media-politicking. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Best, > >>> > >> Huw > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> On 9 November 2015 at 00:55, Andy Blunden >>> >>> > >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > >>> > >> > >>> > >> I think the point is that holidays have *always* been > >>> > >> fixed to reinforce the normative order. The only > >>> > >> exception I know is May Day, which is not a holiday > >>> > >> here in Oz. > >>> > >> Andy > >>> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > >> *Andy Blunden* > >>> > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> On 9/11/2015 11:51 AM, mike cole wrote: > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Dear Colleagues -Here is the latest word on > >>> > >> International Mens day and its > >>> > >> presence in the United States thanks to a hint > >>> > >> about checking Wikipedia: > >>> > >> > >>> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Men%27s_Day. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Is it just me, or does anyone out there think that > >>> > >> some thought should be > >>> > >> giving to gender neutral holidays instead of the > >>> > >> normative order? For > >>> > >> example, how about a Parents Day and a > >>> > >> Grandparents day. With time off and > >>> > >> a little family time, whatever that family might be. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> mike > >>> > >> > >>> > >> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Hans Knutag?rd > >>> > >> >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> wrote: > >>> > >> In Sweden we celebrate Fathers day evry year > >>> > >> the Sunday in November > >>> > >> between the 8 and 14. It started 1931 as a > >>> > >> respons to Mother's day in May > >>> > >> (in Sweden). > >>> > >> > >>> > >> 8 nov. 2015 kl. 20:58 skrev Rauno Huttunen > >>> > >> >: > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Hello, > >>> > >> > >>> > >> In Finland it is Father's Day. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Rauno Huttunen > >>> > >> > >>> > >> L?hetetty iPadista > >>> > >> > >>> > >> mike cole >>> > >> > kirjoitti > >>> > >> 8.11.2015 kello 21.37: > >>> > >> > >>> > >> I have learned from my Russian > >>> > >> colleagues that today is the > >>> > >> > >>> > >> International > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Day honoring Men, which I am told is > >>> > >> celebrated in 70 countries > >>> > >> > >>> > >> including > >>> > >> > >>> > >> the US (Wikipedia so testifies). But I > >>> > >> have never heard of it! Just me, > >>> > >> > >>> > >> or > >>> > >> > >>> > >> is this > >>> > >> not a generally recognized holiday in > >>> > >> the U.S.? > >>> > >> mike > >>> > >> > >>> > >> -- > >>> > >> > >>> > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to > >>> > >> deal as a natural science with an > >>> > >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >>> > >> > >> > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From kskinner@lsu.edu Sun Nov 8 20:01:13 2015 From: kskinner@lsu.edu (Kim Skinner) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 04:01:13 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Doing Philosophy with kids In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mike, By your questions I see I need to provide even more background for this study, which I did find challenging in the space an article-length manuscript provides. This study took place in a Texas public school where remedial after school offerings were plentiful and often mandatory for certain children but non-remedial opportunities were scarce and short-lived. The philosophy club was announced to the grade 4 students at a beginning of the year assembly and touted as an opportunity for children to talk and think together as participants in philosophical conversations once a week, after school. As the only school in this district for grade 4 and 5 students, 210 grade 4 students attended this school. The philosophy club was open to all students and the first twenty signed parental permission slips were granted entry. (A similar offering for grade 3 and 4 students in a nearby school district admitted 30 students but the office had to time stamp the returned permission slips and create a waiting list as 62 were returned the first day.) What we found was both students and parents had considerable interest in unique after school learning opportunities when admission was open and without cost. Attendance did fluctuate slightly over time, primarily due to a few children being required by the principal to attend remedial after school sessions due to poor grades in either reading or math. While all of the children's responses were not included in this article, as I cited in my full-length study, there was differential take-up of learning opportunities by the child participants. In Informal interviews with several key participants, some children expressed difficulty not focusing on the "right answer" and one child admitted he was uncomfortable voicing his ideas and preferred to write them in his reflection journals. The children had the opportunity to respond orally and in writing each session, though I did not include the reflection journal data in this manuscript. Thank you for sharing the P4C example from a preschool classroom. Children's literature as a stimulus for philosophical conversation often yields such fabulous results! Kim Kim Skinner, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Literacy Studies Louisiana State University School of Education 226 Peabody Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803 225.578.6709 ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+kskinner=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 12:14 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Doing Philosophy with kids Kim et al-- I have long been interested in the philosophy for children ideas of Lipmann and Mathews, as well as the potentials of afterschool activities as a space in which to enrich children's experiences with the stuff being crammed at them in school, so it was especially interesting to see the two combined. The collation of ideas from discursive psychology and Vygotskian, as well as the toolkit of methods seems to be very helpful in understanding what was transpiring. But I came away with a few questions. Re afterschool. A major question I had as I started the paper was how successful a "doing philosophy" club would be for 9-10 year olds (which I assume 4th graders to be). In our work we have always focused on the voluntary nature of participation, so kids have to want to come. Seemed like quite a challenge! Am I right that about half the kids dropped out by session 7 or was it that attendance fluctuated a lot so that you just happened to have few kids on sessions 7 and 19? With respect to the question of opportunities to learn that you raise in the introduction, what should we make of this? Only some kids like doing philosopy? And of those who liked it, were opportunities differentially taken up by different kids? It was hard for me to follow. I have a question about the use of the term, activity, which is very often brings me grief when reading Vygotsky and many others because the term seems to be polysemic within texts. For example, "The expression doing philosophy signals philosophy as an activity, like doing work (Wittgenstein) vs : "I considered an event as a set of activities bound together by a common theme or purpose." Would it be doing an injustice to your thinking to refer to events as (collective) actions that are bound together by the common activity of doing philosophy"? I was impressed after reading through the paper how importantly it contrasts with standard education where the most problematic thing a teacher can do is to assert that s/he does not know the answer to a question or that there is no right answer. It seems as if embedding a "doing philosophy" curriculum in schools that can survive in the very different set of the ground rules of transmissiong, direct-instruction regimes is to embed it in the language arts/literacy part of the curriculum, which in different ways by Mathews and Lipman. Below is one of my favorite examples of philosophy in the preschool using a book and author for whom so many core philosophical issues appear in appealing form. Thanks for the informative article. mike ----------------- The Kindergartners in Vivian Paley?s classroom are discussing the story by Leo Leoni of Tico, a wingless bird who is cared for by his black-winged friends. In the story, the wishingbird visits Tico one night and grants him a wish. Tico wishes for golden wings. When his friends see his golden wings in the morning, they are angry. They abandon him because he wants to be better than they are. Tico is upset by his friends? rejection and wants to gain readmission to the group. He discovers that he can exchange his golden feathers for black ones by performing good deeds. When at last he has replaced all the golden feathers with black ones, he is granted readmission by the flock, whose members comment, ?Now you are just like us? (Leoni, 1964). *Teacher:* I don?t think it?s fair that Tico has to give up his golden wings. *Lisa:* It is fair. See, he was nicer when he didn?t have any wings. They didn?t like him when he had gold. *Wally:* He thinks he?s better if he has golden wings. *Eddie:* He is better. *Jill:* But he?s not supposed to be better. The wishingbird was wrong to give him those wings. *Deana:* She has to give him his wish. He?s the one who shouldn?t have asked for golden wings. *Wally:* He could put black wings on top of the golden wings and try to trick them. *Deana:* They?d sneak up and see the gold. He should just give every bird one golden feather and keep one for himself. *Teacher:* Why can?t he decide for himself what kind of wings he wants? *Wally:* He has to decide to have black wings. (Paley, 1981, pp. 25?26) -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From glassman.13@osu.edu Sun Nov 8 20:22:55 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 04:22:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men In-Reply-To: References: <563FEF0A.8050306@mira.net> <563FF51B.3010309@mira.net> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9C126AD@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> True story, the English is cleaned up to protect the innocent My first year of graduate school there were two female physicists who had just come over from China who I had become friendly with. One morning I hear a knock on my door. There stands one of the physicists "Where do we get our tickets?" She asks me. "What?" I say. "Our tickets. Me and my roommate want to know where we get our movie tickets." "Movie tickets?" She nods her head excitedly. "Why would you get movie tickets?" She looks at me like I'm an idiot. "Because it's international women's day." "International women's day? We don't have a women's day." "Of course you do," she said frustrated. "It's international. That's why they call it international women's day." "No, we don't have a women's day in the United States." "Women's day," she says insistent. "We get movie tickets. We don't have to work." "No," I say, "there is no women's day in the United States." Her eyes get wide. "Does that mean I'm supposed to go into my lab." "There's no women's day." She sighs and turns around - and says as she leaves (interestingly enough in English), "But I'm too old for children's day." I just didn't have the heart to tell her. Happy men's day everybody. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2015 10:24 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men Try Wordsworth, Huw, re child-man (aka grownup). The Benjamin is really amazing. That's it. How he saw this in Klee is amazing...... to me. mike On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 7:10 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > And who was it that said that the child is the father of the man -- > maybe I read that from Ilyenkov? > > Huw > > > > On 9 November 2015 at 02:18, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > Erm, the chimera performing a sanctifying act, I meant to say. V. nice. > > > > Huw > > > > On 9 November 2015 at 02:16, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > >> This one? > >> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelus_Novus > >> > >> I felt it was from Klee immediately, seeing a lion and phoenix chimera. > >> A good emblem for sure. But, by the way, I was thinking > >> predominantly one's own childhood as the idea with a bridge to the > >> children now. So, > for > >> the universally minded it is so. > >> > >> Huw > >> > >> > >> On 9 November 2015 at 01:53, mike cole wrote: > >> > >>> I was thinking about a children's day, too, Huw. > >>> > >>> When I was a kid, Nov. 11th was Armistice Day. Then it became > >>> Memorial Day, now it is Veterans day. Benjamin's picture of the > >>> Angel of History "to > a > >>> T" > >>> as we > >>> blokes say. > >>> > >>> Mike > >>> PS- All is not gloom vis a vis Nov. 11th. It is the day I met my wife! > >>> :-) > >>> > >>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Huw Lloyd > >>> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> > And, if I recall correctly, a sense of specialness of the day in > >>> > conjunction with a community-wide collective activity (cleaning > >>> > the > >>> rooms, > >>> > including moving heavy furniture to do so). > >>> > > >>> > Huw > >>> > > >>> > On 9 November 2015 at 01:21, Andy Blunden wrote: > >>> > > >>> > > IN his book on teaching deaf/blind kids, A. Meshcheryakov says > >>> > > they > >>> used > >>> > > teh celebration of national holidays as a way of imparting a > >>> > > sense > of > >>> > time. > >>> > > Andy > >>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > > *Andy Blunden* > >>> > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 9/11/2015 12:17 PM, Huw > >>> > > Lloyd wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > >> I don't know. The best thing that I can think of that is > consonant > >>> with > >>> > >> the media of 'a day' is the recognition of the cultural > >>> > >> notion of > >>> time. > >>> > >> Putting it in that context, is does seem the case that some > >>> > >> of long-standing holy-days do implicate certain constants > >>> > >> (relative > to > >>> our > >>> > >> cultures and their histories), e.g. the equinoctes. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Generally I have an aversion to such artifices as celebratory > days, > >>> but > >>> > I > >>> > >> think I might participate in something like a children's day, > >>> thereby > >>> > >> encouraging some reflection on at least a generational > >>> > >> timescale > in > >>> > >> contrast to the 24hour/5year media-politicking. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Best, > >>> > >> Huw > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> On 9 November 2015 at 00:55, Andy Blunden >>> >>> > >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > >>> > >> > >>> > >> I think the point is that holidays have *always* been > >>> > >> fixed to reinforce the normative order. The only > >>> > >> exception I know is May Day, which is not a holiday > >>> > >> here in Oz. > >>> > >> Andy > >>> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > >> *Andy Blunden* > >>> > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> On 9/11/2015 11:51 AM, mike cole wrote: > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Dear Colleagues -Here is the latest word on > >>> > >> International Mens day and its > >>> > >> presence in the United States thanks to a hint > >>> > >> about checking Wikipedia: > >>> > >> > >>> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Men%27s_Day. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Is it just me, or does anyone out there think that > >>> > >> some thought should be > >>> > >> giving to gender neutral holidays instead of the > >>> > >> normative order? For > >>> > >> example, how about a Parents Day and a > >>> > >> Grandparents day. With time off and > >>> > >> a little family time, whatever that family might be. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> mike > >>> > >> > >>> > >> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Hans Knutag?rd > >>> > >> >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> wrote: > >>> > >> In Sweden we celebrate Fathers day evry year > >>> > >> the Sunday in November > >>> > >> between the 8 and 14. It started 1931 as a > >>> > >> respons to Mother's day in May > >>> > >> (in Sweden). > >>> > >> > >>> > >> 8 nov. 2015 kl. 20:58 skrev Rauno Huttunen > >>> > >> >: > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Hello, > >>> > >> > >>> > >> In Finland it is Father's Day. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Rauno Huttunen > >>> > >> > >>> > >> L?hetetty iPadista > >>> > >> > >>> > >> mike cole >>> > >> > kirjoitti > >>> > >> 8.11.2015 kello 21.37: > >>> > >> > >>> > >> I have learned from my Russian > >>> > >> colleagues that today is the > >>> > >> > >>> > >> International > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Day honoring Men, which I am told is > >>> > >> celebrated in 70 countries > >>> > >> > >>> > >> including > >>> > >> > >>> > >> the US (Wikipedia so testifies). But I > >>> > >> have never heard of it! Just me, > >>> > >> > >>> > >> or > >>> > >> > >>> > >> is this > >>> > >> not a generally recognized holiday in > >>> > >> the U.S.? > >>> > >> mike > >>> > >> > >>> > >> -- > >>> > >> > >>> > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to > >>> > >> deal as a natural science with an > >>> > >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with > >>> an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >>> > >> > >> > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From dkirsh@lsu.edu Sun Nov 8 20:53:10 2015 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 04:53:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] In-Reply-To: References: <6ce840cbf660664483f1af5cd46f9f5d.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu>, Message-ID: Kim, thanks for sharing your article with the list. Picking up on the passage Larry seized on: "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for their claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority and reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on reasoning increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue transformed through group members practising in dialogue with each other" (p. 358). I'm wondering, what was the engine driving progress. The ground rules can't be it, for they're far too general (taking turns, listening to others, thinking before you speak, etc.). For instance, with respect to reasoning, all the ground rules state is "Give reasons for your beliefs" (p. 355). But, citing one's experience or else arguing on the basis of authority is still giving reasons. So there must have been something beyond the ground rules at play. Are you regarding the evolution of processes of reasoning as a "natural" evolution (in some sense); if one persists in civil dialogue long enough, a certain kind of progress ensues, and that's what's been captured in your data? Or is the teacher exerting some subtle influence (beyond providing the ground rules) that has guided the increasing sophistication of the students? David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kim Skinner Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2015 9:05 PM To: Goncu, Artin; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Hi Larry, I appreciate your comments and agree with your complication of "space" and "reasons." The philosophy club was indeed much more than a dialogic space, though in this particular manuscript I did focus on the words of the teacher and children. The use and function of the physical space, for example, was transformed after school by the teacher and children when they moved furniture to sit in a circle on the floor and created anchor charts as artifacts and reminders of the differentiated utility of this space after the last bell. I agree that by focusing on the rules seems counterintuitive as it was, after all, the "rules" of school discourse the teacher was trying to escape. However, as the philosophy club only met once a week, the "new rules" were important reminders for both the children and the teacher who transitioned from the school day IRE discourse to a peer led whole group conversation with the ringing of a bell. While the ground rules appear to delimit practices, in actuality their explicitness opened up this creative, situational, and dialogic space. Kim Kim Skinner, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Literacy Studies Louisiana State University School of Education 226 Peabody Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803 225.578.6709 ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+kskinner=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer Sent: Sunday, November 1, 2015 10:31 AM To: Goncu, Artin Cc: Activity eXtended Mind Culture Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Thanks Artin!! :) On 2015-10-31, at 10:32 AM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > I join Ana and Andy, in thanking you, Jen and all, for your contributions. > The titles look great and I am looking forward to the discussions. > All the best, ag > > ---------------------------- Original Message > ---------------------------- > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion > From: "Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer" > Date: Sat, October 31, 2015 11:36 am > To: ablunden@mira.net > "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Cc: "W. Douglas Baker" > "Negar Amini" > "Wendy Turgeon" > "Hendricks, Christina" > "Weber, Barbara" > "Judith Green" > "M. Dobber" > "M. van der Veen" > "Daniel Anderson" > "H.J.M. van Oers" > "Susan Gardner" > "Peter Costello" > "Natalie Fletcher" > "Claire Alkouatli" > "Kym Maclaren" > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > Thanks for this, Andy, and thanks go to the lead editor Barbara Weber > on this issue as well! > > For folks who would like to know more about it, the editorial is also > available for free. There are 6 articles and 6 commentaries-we were > working toward a more dialogic feel-that move across and between > philosophy, psychology, and education. In addition, we were able to > include a book review on Jan Derry's fascinating book, Vygotsky, > philosophy and education. > > Our intention was to look at intersections of philosophy, psychology, > and education and we were very fortunate to locate authors with both > similar intentions and outstanding research to contribute. The > congratulations go to them: > > Wendy Turgeon > Christina Hendricks > Eva Marsal > Chiel van der Veen, Claudia van Kruistum, & Sarah Michaels Marjolein > Dobber & Bert van Oers Claire Alkouatli, Negar Amini, and Jen Kim > Skinner Doug Baker & Judith Green Kym Maclaren Peter Costello Susan > Gardner & Daniel Anderson Natalie Fletcher Arthur Wolf > > Thanks to everyone! > > Now, on to discussions of Kim Skinner's article!! > > Best - jen > > > > On 2015-10-30, at 10:17 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Looks like a stunning issue, Jen! >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> On 31/10/2015 2:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> Jennifer and Kim, >>> This months article is sure to generate conversation. >>> The 2nd paragraph on page 358 caught my attention. >>> "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for >>> their claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority >>> and reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on >>> reasoning increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue >>> transformed through group members practising in dialogue with each other." >>> >>> The question this generates concerns the notion of *space* of >>> reasons. I hear a transfiguration from *foundational rule based* >>> space TO *dialogical >>> space* OF reasons. >>> >>> However are there other possible *spaces* of reason beyond either >>> foundational or dialogical *spaces* of reason. For example >>> *situational >>> spaces* or *creative spaces* OF reason. >>> Using a dramatical metaphor or table metaphor could the dialogical >>> *space of reasons* be a particular type of situation as answer to >>> foundational rule based reason, but the deeper truth is that we are >>> setting the table for multiple fluid "spaces* of reasoning. To >>> justify claims may be deeply implicated WITHIN plural notions of *spaces*. >>> Not either foundational or dialogical *spaces* but expanding to >>> multiple mixtures of various notions of reasons. >>> This in no way questions dialogical spaces of reason [as thinking] >>> but invites deeper exploration to how we orient to these multiple >>> *spaces* [each of which offers justifications.] >>> >>> To describe justification as re- semblance to a board game focuses >>> attention on the RULES of the game. THIS is a norm based image of >>> reasoning justifying moving *points* on the board as preconceived >>> grid. Situational *spaces* of reason are more creative *spaces* of >>> justification that are also historically implicated but more open to >>> novelty. >>> The question of justification is complicated and the relation of the >>> 4 types of justification far more entangled than reason >>> [foundational or dialogical] overcoming the other 3 types assumes. >>> >>> The orientation moving away from foundational spaces of reason to >>> dialogical spaces of reason is a profound transfiguration. It opens >>> the space of reason to creative novelty. It is possible to continue >>> going deeper to explore the profound depth of situations as *spaces* of reason. >>> >>> This months journal is moving across traditions and authorities and >>> experiences. The concept of *situational* spaces is the Pragmatic >>> tradition. Philosophical hermeneutics uses the concept *spaces of play*. >>> Are concepts merely *resources* or do they exhibit other characteristics?. >>> Dewey explored two notions of "have" >>> A possessive "have" and a relational "have" [We have a friend]. We >>> cannot possess *spaces* These *third* spaces have us and we >>> *undergo* experiences WITHIN these spaces. >>> >>> The *space* of reasons also has this quality of being more than > "resources" >>> to use in our practices of justification. Reasons are more than >>> tools of self management and self discipline. They are also *spaces* which have us. >>> >>> Reason is being re-thought and re-worked and will need multiple >>> *settings* to stage this activity. The space of reasons as >>> dialogical is one particular and valid and true space of >>> justification. It is not the only space. >>> Generating notions of *situations* and *spaces of play* and *zones* >>> are speaking this multi-verse being acted out as dramas. >>> >>> The after school setting created a particular situation opening up a >>> particular stage like *space* for generating particular types of >>> justification. It was a *third* space in which the dialogical comes >>> to the foreground. Ground is a fluid concept as is the concept of >>> *concrete* experience. Creative worlds emerge or unfold within these >>> *spaces* but > they >>> are not fundamentally grounded or permanently rule based. These >>> worlds are foregrounded and backgrounded within particular >>> situations [spaces of > play] >>> but they are primarily unknown on their way to be/coming known >>> without > end. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < >>> j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear XMCAers, >>>> >>>> The special issue of Mind, Culture, and Activity on Engaged >>>> Philosophical Inquiry is up and running. >>>> >>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current >>>> >>>> Kim Skinner, author of Acts of thinking: At school but not during >>>> school, has graciously agreed to make herself available for >>>> dialogue about her article on XMCA. >>>> >>>> If you have a moment to access and review the article, perhaps we >>>> can begin discussion early or mid next week? >>>> >>>> Best to all, jen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > Professor Emeritus, > University of Illinois at Chicago > College of Education M/C 147 > 1040 W. Harrison St. > Chicago, IL 60607 > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Nov 8 23:00:44 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 00:00:44 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9C126AD@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <563FEF0A.8050306@mira.net> <563FF51B.3010309@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9C126AD@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: RE: children's day, would this do: http://www.un.org/en/events/childrenday/ ? 12 days and counting... How to celebrate? -greg On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 9:22 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > True story, the English is cleaned up to protect the innocent > > My first year of graduate school there were two female physicists who had > just come over from China who I had become friendly with. One morning I > hear a knock on my door. There stands one of the physicists > > "Where do we get our tickets?" She asks me. > > "What?" I say. > > "Our tickets. Me and my roommate want to know where we get our movie > tickets." > > "Movie tickets?" She nods her head excitedly. "Why would you get movie > tickets?" > > She looks at me like I'm an idiot. "Because it's international women's > day." > > "International women's day? We don't have a women's day." > > "Of course you do," she said frustrated. "It's international. That's why > they call it international women's day." > > "No, we don't have a women's day in the United States." > > "Women's day," she says insistent. "We get movie tickets. We don't have > to work." > > "No," I say, "there is no women's day in the United States." > > Her eyes get wide. "Does that mean I'm supposed to go into my lab." > > "There's no women's day." > > She sighs and turns around - and says as she leaves (interestingly enough > in English), "But I'm too old for children's day." > > I just didn't have the heart to tell her. > > Happy men's day everybody. > > Michael > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On > Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2015 10:24 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congratulations Men > > Try Wordsworth, Huw, re child-man (aka grownup). > > The Benjamin is really amazing. That's it. How he saw this in Klee is > amazing...... to me. > mike > > On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 7:10 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > And who was it that said that the child is the father of the man -- > > maybe I read that from Ilyenkov? > > > > Huw > > > > > > > > On 9 November 2015 at 02:18, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > > > Erm, the chimera performing a sanctifying act, I meant to say. V. > nice. > > > > > > Huw > > > > > > On 9 November 2015 at 02:16, Huw Lloyd > > wrote: > > > > > >> This one? > > >> > > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelus_Novus > > >> > > >> I felt it was from Klee immediately, seeing a lion and phoenix > chimera. > > >> A good emblem for sure. But, by the way, I was thinking > > >> predominantly one's own childhood as the idea with a bridge to the > > >> children now. So, > > for > > >> the universally minded it is so. > > >> > > >> Huw > > >> > > >> > > >> On 9 November 2015 at 01:53, mike cole wrote: > > >> > > >>> I was thinking about a children's day, too, Huw. > > >>> > > >>> When I was a kid, Nov. 11th was Armistice Day. Then it became > > >>> Memorial Day, now it is Veterans day. Benjamin's picture of the > > >>> Angel of History "to > > a > > >>> T" > > >>> as we > > >>> blokes say. > > >>> > > >>> Mike > > >>> PS- All is not gloom vis a vis Nov. 11th. It is the day I met my > wife! > > >>> :-) > > >>> > > >>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Huw Lloyd > > >>> > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > And, if I recall correctly, a sense of specialness of the day in > > >>> > conjunction with a community-wide collective activity (cleaning > > >>> > the > > >>> rooms, > > >>> > including moving heavy furniture to do so). > > >>> > > > >>> > Huw > > >>> > > > >>> > On 9 November 2015 at 01:21, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > >>> > > > >>> > > IN his book on teaching deaf/blind kids, A. Meshcheryakov says > > >>> > > they > > >>> used > > >>> > > teh celebration of national holidays as a way of imparting a > > >>> > > sense > > of > > >>> > time. > > >>> > > Andy > > >>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> > > *Andy Blunden* > > >>> > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 9/11/2015 12:17 PM, Huw > > >>> > > Lloyd wrote: > > >>> > > > > >>> > >> I don't know. The best thing that I can think of that is > > consonant > > >>> with > > >>> > >> the media of 'a day' is the recognition of the cultural > > >>> > >> notion of > > >>> time. > > >>> > >> Putting it in that context, is does seem the case that some > > >>> > >> of long-standing holy-days do implicate certain constants > > >>> > >> (relative > > to > > >>> our > > >>> > >> cultures and their histories), e.g. the equinoctes. > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> Generally I have an aversion to such artifices as celebratory > > days, > > >>> but > > >>> > I > > >>> > >> think I might participate in something like a children's day, > > >>> thereby > > >>> > >> encouraging some reflection on at least a generational > > >>> > >> timescale > > in > > >>> > >> contrast to the 24hour/5year media-politicking. > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> Best, > > >>> > >> Huw > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> On 9 November 2015 at 00:55, Andy Blunden > >>> > >>> > >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> I think the point is that holidays have *always* been > > >>> > >> fixed to reinforce the normative order. The only > > >>> > >> exception I know is May Day, which is not a holiday > > >>> > >> here in Oz. > > >>> > >> Andy > > >>> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> > >> *Andy Blunden* > > >>> > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> On 9/11/2015 11:51 AM, mike cole wrote: > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> Dear Colleagues -Here is the latest word on > > >>> > >> International Mens day and its > > >>> > >> presence in the United States thanks to a hint > > >>> > >> about checking Wikipedia: > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Men%27s_Day > . > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> Is it just me, or does anyone out there think that > > >>> > >> some thought should be > > >>> > >> giving to gender neutral holidays instead of the > > >>> > >> normative order? For > > >>> > >> example, how about a Parents Day and a > > >>> > >> Grandparents day. With time off and > > >>> > >> a little family time, whatever that family might be. > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> mike > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Hans Knutag?rd > > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> wrote: > > >>> > >> In Sweden we celebrate Fathers day evry year > > >>> > >> the Sunday in November > > >>> > >> between the 8 and 14. It started 1931 as a > > >>> > >> respons to Mother's day in May > > >>> > >> (in Sweden). > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> 8 nov. 2015 kl. 20:58 skrev Rauno Huttunen > > >>> > >> >: > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> Hello, > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> In Finland it is Father's Day. > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> Rauno Huttunen > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> L?hetetty iPadista > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> mike cole > >>> > >> > kirjoitti > > >>> > >> 8.11.2015 kello 21.37: > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> I have learned from my Russian > > >>> > >> colleagues that today is the > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> International > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> Day honoring Men, which I am told is > > >>> > >> celebrated in 70 countries > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> including > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> the US (Wikipedia so testifies). But I > > >>> > >> have never heard of it! Just me, > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> or > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> is this > > >>> > >> not a generally recognized holiday in > > >>> > >> the U.S.? > > >>> > >> mike > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> -- > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to > > >>> > >> deal as a natural science with an > > >>> > >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> > > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with > > >>> an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From smago@uga.edu Mon Nov 9 03:24:54 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:24:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: New opportunity in Didactics of the Economic and Social Sciences In-Reply-To: <20151109090902.53846220B1@mr86.researchgate.net> References: <20151109090902.53846220B1@mr86.researchgate.net> Message-ID: Interesting looking job: From: ResearchGate [mailto:no-reply@researchgate.net] Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 4:09 AM To: Peter Smagorinsky Subject: New opportunity in Didactics of the Economic and Social Sciences [ResearchGate] For more information and details on how to apply, please click on the "View" button. [Tenure Track/ Tenure...] Tenure Track/ Tenured Full Time Position - Didactics of the Economic and Social Sciences Universit? catholique de Louvain Belgium View Is your department hiring? Find your next colleague on ResearchGate. Post a job now. View all jobs This message was sent to smago@uga.edu. To make sure you receive our updates, add ResearchGate to your address book or safe list. See instructions If you don't want to receive these emails from ResearchGate in the future, please unsubscribe. ResearchGate GmbH, Invalidenstr. 115, 10115 Berlin, Germany. See our Privacy Policy and Terms & Conditions. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Nov 9 07:09:01 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 07:09:01 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] How Benjamin saw the angel in klee Message-ID: <5640b71f.e288440a.fd90e.7d36@mx.google.com> Mike, The question you posed, how Benjamin saw the truth of historical consciousness through klee's *image* opens a topic, a subject matter, and a question of method. Method for vasilyuk explores the salience of *response* and *address*. So klee's angel generated a coexperiencing response within benjamin's awareness that oriented Benjamin to a particular *tradition* which put into question "historical materialism". The quotation marks indicate historical materialism AS INTERPRETED normatively in 1939. Klee's angel ( or should we say benjamin's angel emerged while Benjamin was composing his thesis on history. The angel was thesis 12. The thesis were generated from the conflict generated when Hitler and stalin made a pact. This crisis shattered benjamin's trust in historical materialism as an approach, and threw Benjamin back (or return to) benjamin's earlier orientation to the mystery of metaphysics (and silence). Klees' image (now benjamin's image was coexperienced by Hannah ardent when Benjamin sent her the thesis. Hannah orients to the natality and birth of meaning and Hannah sent her experience of the angel to adorno who was deeply moved by klee and Benjamin and ardent's iimage of the angel. Adorno wrote a book, it was translated into English and this angel entered the culture and was carried to Wikipedia. Huw coexperienced this angel and shared it on XMCA. Mike questioned the genesis of benjamin's generative image and I am tracing its lineage through traditions OF justification. If this is a type of reflection and logic, and reason then this approach has a RELIANCE within topics, subject matters, and methods AS traditions. This tradition leads back to Vico and this breath of history is blowing the angel of history through the spaces and situations here and now as I com/pose this RESPONSE (with reliance being within a tradition which includes STILLNESS and SILENCE). Larry From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Nov 9 08:54:44 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:54:44 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Doing Philosophy with kids In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the extra info, Kim. More interesting questions than mine have appeared. I'll be interested to see how the discussion proceeds. mike On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 8:01 PM, Kim Skinner wrote: > Hi Mike, > > By your questions I see I need to provide even more background for this > study, which I did find challenging in the space an article-length > manuscript provides. This study took place in a Texas public school where > remedial after school offerings were plentiful and > often mandatory for certain children but non-remedial opportunities were > scarce and short-lived. The philosophy club was announced to > the grade 4 students at a beginning of the year assembly and touted as an > opportunity for children to talk and think together > as participants in philosophical conversations once a week, after school. > As the only school in this district for grade 4 and 5 students, 210 grade 4 > students attended this school. The philosophy club was open to all students > and the first twenty signed parental permission slips were granted entry. > (A similar offering for grade 3 and 4 students in a nearby school district > admitted 30 students but the office had to time stamp the returned > permission slips and create a waiting list as 62 were returned the first > day.) What we found was both students and parents had considerable interest > in unique after school learning opportunities when admission was open and > without cost. > > Attendance did fluctuate slightly over time, primarily due to a few > children being required by the principal to attend remedial after school > sessions due to poor grades in either reading or math. While all of the > children's responses were not included in this article, as I cited in my > full-length study, > there was differential take-up of learning opportunities by the child > participants. In Informal interviews with several key participants, some > children expressed difficulty not focusing on the "right answer" and one > child admitted he was uncomfortable voicing his ideas and preferred to > write them > in his reflection journals. The children had the opportunity to respond > orally and in writing each session, though I did not include the reflection > journal data in this manuscript. > > Thank you for sharing the P4C example from a preschool classroom. > Children's literature as a stimulus for philosophical conversation often > yields such fabulous results! > Kim > > > > Kim Skinner, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor, Literacy Studies > Louisiana State University > School of Education > 226 Peabody Hall > Baton Rouge, LA 70803 > 225.578.6709 > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+kskinner=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > > Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 12:14 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Doing Philosophy with kids > > Kim et al-- > > > > I have long been interested in the philosophy for children ideas of Lipmann > and Mathews, as well as the potentials of afterschool activities as a space > in which to enrich children's experiences with the stuff being crammed at > them in school, so it was especially interesting to see the two combined. > The collation of ideas from discursive psychology and Vygotskian, as well > as the toolkit of methods seems to be very helpful in understanding what > was transpiring. > > > > But I came away with a few questions. > > > > Re afterschool. A major question I had as I started the paper was how > successful a "doing philosophy" club would be for 9-10 year olds (which I > assume 4th graders to be). In our work we have always focused on the > voluntary nature of participation, so kids have to want to come. Seemed > like quite a challenge! > > > > Am I right that about half the kids dropped out by session 7 or was it that > attendance fluctuated a lot so that you just happened to have few kids on > sessions 7 and 19? With respect to the question of opportunities to learn > that you raise in the introduction, what should we make of this? Only some > kids like doing philosopy? And of those who liked it, > > were opportunities differentially taken up by different kids? It was hard > for me to follow. > > > > I have a question about the use of the term, activity, which is very often > brings me grief when reading Vygotsky and many others because the term > seems to be polysemic within > > texts. For example, > > "The expression doing philosophy signals philosophy as an activity, like > doing work (Wittgenstein) vs : "I considered an event as a set of > activities bound together by a common theme or purpose." > > > > Would it be doing an injustice to your thinking to refer to events as > (collective) actions that are bound together by the common activity of > doing philosophy"? > > > > I was impressed after reading through the paper how importantly it > contrasts with standard education where the most problematic thing a > teacher can do is to assert that s/he does not know the answer to a > question or that there is no right answer. It seems as if embedding a > "doing philosophy" curriculum in schools that can survive in the very > different set of the ground rules of transmissiong, direct-instruction > regimes is to embed it in the language arts/literacy part of the > curriculum, which in different ways by Mathews and Lipman. > > > > Below is one of my favorite examples of philosophy in the preschool using > a book and author for whom so many core philosophical issues appear in > appealing form. > > > > Thanks for the informative article. > > mike > > ----------------- > > The Kindergartners in Vivian Paley?s classroom are discussing the story by > Leo Leoni of Tico, a wingless bird who is cared for by his black-winged > friends. In the story, the wishingbird visits Tico one night and grants him > a wish. Tico wishes for golden wings. When his friends see his golden wings > in the morning, they are angry. They abandon him because he wants to be > better than they are. Tico is upset by his friends? rejection and wants to > gain readmission to the group. He discovers that he can exchange his golden > feathers for black ones by performing good deeds. When at last he has > replaced all the golden feathers with black ones, he is granted readmission > by the flock, whose members comment, ?Now you are just like us? (Leoni, > 1964). > > *Teacher:* I don?t think it?s fair that Tico has to give up his golden > wings. > > *Lisa:* It is fair. See, he was nicer when he didn?t have any wings. They > didn?t like him when he had gold. > > *Wally:* He thinks he?s better if he has golden wings. > > *Eddie:* He is better. > > *Jill:* But he?s not supposed to be better. The wishingbird was wrong to > give him those wings. > > *Deana:* She has to give him his wish. He?s the one who shouldn?t have > asked for golden wings. > > *Wally:* He could put black wings on top of the golden wings and try to > trick them. > > *Deana:* They?d sneak up and see the gold. He should just give every bird > one golden feather and keep one for himself. > > *Teacher:* Why can?t he decide for himself what kind of wings he wants? > > *Wally:* He has to decide to have black wings. > > (Paley, 1981, pp. 25?26) > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Nov 9 09:10:25 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 09:10:25 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: How Benjamin saw the angel in klee In-Reply-To: <5640b71f.e288440a.fd90e.7d36@mx.google.com> References: <5640b71f.e288440a.fd90e.7d36@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Very interesting history, Larry. Thanks a lot. I encountered Benjamin's passage while teaching long before I saw the Klee painting. The passage immediately resonated with me. For one thing, it corresponded to the notion of the retrospective construction of meaning, for another it corresponded to each of the following two thinkers whose work I came upon in the course of my education while teaching in a comm department. Kierkegaard: "Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." E.G. Boring, early/mid-20th century American psychologist on this topic, which Boring conducted research on: To be aware of a conscious datum is to be sure that it has passed. The nearest actual approach to immediate introspection is early retrospection. The experience described, if there be any such, is always just past; the description is present. However, if I ask myself how I know the description is present, I find myself describing the processes that made up the description; the original describing is past. . . Experience itself is at the end of the introspective rainbow. The rainbow may have an end and the end may be somewhere; yet I seem never to get to it. (Boring, 1933/1963, p. 228). Note the implications of these ideas if you believe as I do that joint, mediated, activity is at the core of human psychological functioning. Some of these implications can be found in a paper called "remembering the future" http://lchc.ucsd.edu/People/MCole/Cole_Remembering%20the%20Future0001.pdf mike mike On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 7:09 AM, Lplarry wrote: > Mike, > The question you posed, how Benjamin saw the truth of historical > consciousness through klee's *image* opens a topic, a subject matter, and a > question of method. > Method for vasilyuk explores the salience of *response* and *address*. > So klee's angel generated a coexperiencing response within benjamin's > awareness that oriented Benjamin to a particular *tradition* which put into > question "historical materialism". > The quotation marks indicate historical materialism AS INTERPRETED > normatively in 1939. > Klee's angel ( or should we say benjamin's angel emerged while Benjamin > was composing his thesis on history. The angel was thesis 12. > The thesis were generated from the conflict generated when Hitler and > stalin made a pact. > This crisis shattered benjamin's trust in historical materialism as an > approach, and threw Benjamin back (or return to) benjamin's earlier > orientation to the mystery of metaphysics (and silence). > > Klees' image (now benjamin's image was coexperienced by Hannah ardent when > Benjamin sent her the thesis. Hannah orients to the natality and birth of > meaning and Hannah sent her experience of the angel to adorno who was > deeply moved by klee and Benjamin and ardent's iimage of the angel. > Adorno wrote a book, it was translated into English and this angel entered > the culture and was carried to Wikipedia. Huw coexperienced this angel and > shared it on XMCA. Mike questioned the genesis of benjamin's generative > image and I am tracing its lineage through traditions OF justification. > If this is a type of reflection and logic, and reason then this approach > has a RELIANCE within topics, subject matters, and methods AS traditions. > > This tradition leads back to Vico and this breath of history is blowing > the angel of history through the spaces and situations here and now as I > com/pose this RESPONSE (with reliance being within a tradition which > includes STILLNESS and SILENCE). > Larry -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From smago@uga.edu Mon Nov 9 09:40:09 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 17:40:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: CNN Breaking News In-Reply-To: References: <721224930.4664.1447086495430.JavaMail.cmutil@cmfspdiprod2> Message-ID: A pretty amazing story, well worth reading about. Tim Wolfe, president of the University of Missouri system, announced in a news conference that he was resigning from his post amid a controversy regarding race relations. From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Nov 9 09:56:48 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 09:56:48 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CNN Breaking News In-Reply-To: References: <721224930.4664.1447086495430.JavaMail.cmutil@cmfspdiprod2> Message-ID: Yes, Peter. Really amazing and heartening. mike On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > A pretty amazing story, well worth reading about. > > Tim Wolfe, president of the University of Missouri system, announced in a > news conference that he was resigning from his post< > http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/09/us/missouri-football-players-protest-president-resigns/index.html> > amid a controversy regarding race relations. > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From ConneryMC@cwu.edu Mon Nov 9 10:03:43 2015 From: ConneryMC@cwu.edu (Mary Connery) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 18:03:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CNN Breaking News In-Reply-To: References: <721224930.4664.1447086495430.JavaMail.cmutil@cmfspdiprod2> , Message-ID: Wow! There was just a story in the NY Times about it yesterday. Thanks for sharing! Dr. Cathrene Connery On Nov 9, 2015, at 9:41 AM, "Peter Smagorinsky" wrote: > A pretty amazing story, well worth reading about. > > Tim Wolfe, president of the University of Missouri system, announced in a news conference that he was resigning from his post amid a controversy regarding race relations. From kskinner@lsu.edu Mon Nov 9 11:01:08 2015 From: kskinner@lsu.edu (Kim Skinner) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 19:01:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] In-Reply-To: References: <6ce840cbf660664483f1af5cd46f9f5d.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu>, , Message-ID: Hi David, Children participating in philosophical discussion learn to continually question, challenge, and evaluate... So yes, it was the discursive interactions "over time" that was key. While the ground rules may seem nebulous in list form, it was the interactions of participants over time that changed the children's discourse. For example, enactment of "Think before you speak" played out as a directive by the teacher, such as "Wait! Think about it," followed by almost a minute of silence before any discussion began. You are correct in assuming that the teacher reinforced student responses that modeled "what counts as" developing philosophical practices, such as, building on other's ideas, asking follow-up questions, providing reasons, ... much like Yackel and Cobb's discussion of sociomathematical norms that the teacher influenced through encouragement and attention. Related to your own depiction of a genres approach to notions of learning, the teacher's practice could be characterized as enculturation, where the learning goal was the children's acquisition of the disposition of a philosopher, to learn to think for oneself and with others. Though posted rules for discussion do reduce the degrees of freedom for participants, this acculturationist teacher used engagement with the rules as scaffolding until participating in a philosophical conversation became normative for the children. I appreciate your comments! Kim Kim Skinner, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Literacy Studies Louisiana State University School of Education 226 Peabody Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803 225.578.6709 ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+kskinner=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David H Kirshner Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 10:53 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Kim, thanks for sharing your article with the list. Picking up on the passage Larry seized on: "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for their claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority and reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on reasoning increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue transformed through group members practising in dialogue with each other" (p. 358). I'm wondering, what was the engine driving progress. The ground rules can't be it, for they're far too general (taking turns, listening to others, thinking before you speak, etc.). For instance, with respect to reasoning, all the ground rules state is "Give reasons for your beliefs" (p. 355). But, citing one's experience or else arguing on the basis of authority is still giving reasons. So there must have been something beyond the ground rules at play. Are you regarding the evolution of processes of reasoning as a "natural" evolution (in some sense); if one persists in civil dialogue long enough, a certain kind of progress ensues, and that's what's been captured in your data? Or is the teacher exerting some subtle influence (beyond providing the ground rules) that has guided the increasing sophistication of the students? David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kim Skinner Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2015 9:05 PM To: Goncu, Artin; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Hi Larry, I appreciate your comments and agree with your complication of "space" and "reasons." The philosophy club was indeed much more than a dialogic space, though in this particular manuscript I did focus on the words of the teacher and children. The use and function of the physical space, for example, was transformed after school by the teacher and children when they moved furniture to sit in a circle on the floor and created anchor charts as artifacts and reminders of the differentiated utility of this space after the last bell. I agree that by focusing on the rules seems counterintuitive as it was, after all, the "rules" of school discourse the teacher was trying to escape. However, as the philosophy club only met once a week, the "new rules" were important reminders for both the children and the teacher who transitioned from the school day IRE discourse to a peer led whole group conversation with the ringing of a bell. While the ground rules appear to delimit practices, in actuality their explicitness opened up this creative, situational, and dialogic space. Kim Kim Skinner, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Literacy Studies Louisiana State University School of Education 226 Peabody Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803 225.578.6709 ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+kskinner=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer Sent: Sunday, November 1, 2015 10:31 AM To: Goncu, Artin Cc: Activity eXtended Mind Culture Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Thanks Artin!! :) On 2015-10-31, at 10:32 AM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > I join Ana and Andy, in thanking you, Jen and all, for your contributions. > The titles look great and I am looking forward to the discussions. > All the best, ag > > ---------------------------- Original Message > ---------------------------- > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion > From: "Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer" > Date: Sat, October 31, 2015 11:36 am > To: ablunden@mira.net > "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Cc: "W. Douglas Baker" > "Negar Amini" > "Wendy Turgeon" > "Hendricks, Christina" > "Weber, Barbara" > "Judith Green" > "M. Dobber" > "M. van der Veen" > "Daniel Anderson" > "H.J.M. van Oers" > "Susan Gardner" > "Peter Costello" > "Natalie Fletcher" > "Claire Alkouatli" > "Kym Maclaren" > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > Thanks for this, Andy, and thanks go to the lead editor Barbara Weber > on this issue as well! > > For folks who would like to know more about it, the editorial is also > available for free. There are 6 articles and 6 commentaries-we were > working toward a more dialogic feel-that move across and between > philosophy, psychology, and education. In addition, we were able to > include a book review on Jan Derry's fascinating book, Vygotsky, > philosophy and education. > > Our intention was to look at intersections of philosophy, psychology, > and education and we were very fortunate to locate authors with both > similar intentions and outstanding research to contribute. The > congratulations go to them: > > Wendy Turgeon > Christina Hendricks > Eva Marsal > Chiel van der Veen, Claudia van Kruistum, & Sarah Michaels Marjolein > Dobber & Bert van Oers Claire Alkouatli, Negar Amini, and Jen Kim > Skinner Doug Baker & Judith Green Kym Maclaren Peter Costello Susan > Gardner & Daniel Anderson Natalie Fletcher Arthur Wolf > > Thanks to everyone! > > Now, on to discussions of Kim Skinner's article!! > > Best - jen > > > > On 2015-10-30, at 10:17 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Looks like a stunning issue, Jen! >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> On 31/10/2015 2:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> Jennifer and Kim, >>> This months article is sure to generate conversation. >>> The 2nd paragraph on page 358 caught my attention. >>> "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for >>> their claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority >>> and reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on >>> reasoning increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue >>> transformed through group members practising in dialogue with each other." >>> >>> The question this generates concerns the notion of *space* of >>> reasons. I hear a transfiguration from *foundational rule based* >>> space TO *dialogical >>> space* OF reasons. >>> >>> However are there other possible *spaces* of reason beyond either >>> foundational or dialogical *spaces* of reason. For example >>> *situational >>> spaces* or *creative spaces* OF reason. >>> Using a dramatical metaphor or table metaphor could the dialogical >>> *space of reasons* be a particular type of situation as answer to >>> foundational rule based reason, but the deeper truth is that we are >>> setting the table for multiple fluid "spaces* of reasoning. To >>> justify claims may be deeply implicated WITHIN plural notions of *spaces*. >>> Not either foundational or dialogical *spaces* but expanding to >>> multiple mixtures of various notions of reasons. >>> This in no way questions dialogical spaces of reason [as thinking] >>> but invites deeper exploration to how we orient to these multiple >>> *spaces* [each of which offers justifications.] >>> >>> To describe justification as re- semblance to a board game focuses >>> attention on the RULES of the game. THIS is a norm based image of >>> reasoning justifying moving *points* on the board as preconceived >>> grid. Situational *spaces* of reason are more creative *spaces* of >>> justification that are also historically implicated but more open to >>> novelty. >>> The question of justification is complicated and the relation of the >>> 4 types of justification far more entangled than reason >>> [foundational or dialogical] overcoming the other 3 types assumes. >>> >>> The orientation moving away from foundational spaces of reason to >>> dialogical spaces of reason is a profound transfiguration. It opens >>> the space of reason to creative novelty. It is possible to continue >>> going deeper to explore the profound depth of situations as *spaces* of reason. >>> >>> This months journal is moving across traditions and authorities and >>> experiences. The concept of *situational* spaces is the Pragmatic >>> tradition. Philosophical hermeneutics uses the concept *spaces of play*. >>> Are concepts merely *resources* or do they exhibit other characteristics?. >>> Dewey explored two notions of "have" >>> A possessive "have" and a relational "have" [We have a friend]. We >>> cannot possess *spaces* These *third* spaces have us and we >>> *undergo* experiences WITHIN these spaces. >>> >>> The *space* of reasons also has this quality of being more than > "resources" >>> to use in our practices of justification. Reasons are more than >>> tools of self management and self discipline. They are also *spaces* which have us. >>> >>> Reason is being re-thought and re-worked and will need multiple >>> *settings* to stage this activity. The space of reasons as >>> dialogical is one particular and valid and true space of >>> justification. It is not the only space. >>> Generating notions of *situations* and *spaces of play* and *zones* >>> are speaking this multi-verse being acted out as dramas. >>> >>> The after school setting created a particular situation opening up a >>> particular stage like *space* for generating particular types of >>> justification. It was a *third* space in which the dialogical comes >>> to the foreground. Ground is a fluid concept as is the concept of >>> *concrete* experience. Creative worlds emerge or unfold within these >>> *spaces* but > they >>> are not fundamentally grounded or permanently rule based. These >>> worlds are foregrounded and backgrounded within particular >>> situations [spaces of > play] >>> but they are primarily unknown on their way to be/coming known >>> without > end. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < >>> j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear XMCAers, >>>> >>>> The special issue of Mind, Culture, and Activity on Engaged >>>> Philosophical Inquiry is up and running. >>>> >>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current >>>> >>>> Kim Skinner, author of Acts of thinking: At school but not during >>>> school, has graciously agreed to make herself available for >>>> dialogue about her article on XMCA. >>>> >>>> If you have a moment to access and review the article, perhaps we >>>> can begin discussion early or mid next week? >>>> >>>> Best to all, jen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > Professor Emeritus, > University of Illinois at Chicago > College of Education M/C 147 > 1040 W. Harrison St. > Chicago, IL 60607 > > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Nov 9 11:34:39 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 19:34:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CNN Breaking News In-Reply-To: References: <721224930.4664.1447086495430.JavaMail.cmutil@cmfspdiprod2> , , Message-ID: I heard a story on the PBS radio channel just now, and I learned that the Missouri university would have had to pay Brigham Young ONE MILLION dollars for forfeiting the upcoming football game. THAT is likely why the President stepped down. Not because of the intrinsic issues, of course, but for the cost to the university. Apparently the climate was pretty bad there. With plenty of deniers, In the story the said there were students throwing cotton balls in front of AA organizations. Now all incoming students are going to get diversity training. The world needs diversity training, actually. From kskinner@lsu.edu Mon Nov 9 11:44:29 2015 From: kskinner@lsu.edu (Kim Skinner) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 19:44:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] In-Reply-To: References: <6ce840cbf660664483f1af5cd46f9f5d.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu>, , Message-ID: Hi David, Children participating in philosophical discussion learn to continually question, challenge, and evaluate... So yes, it was the discursive interactions "over time" that was key. While the ground rules may seem nebulous in list form, it was the interactions of participants over time that changed the children's discourse. For example, enactment of "Think before you speak" played out as a directive by the teacher, such as "Wait! Think about it," followed by almost a minute of silence before any discussion began. You are correct in assuming that the teacher reinforced student responses that modeled "what counts as" developing philosophical practices, such as, building on other's ideas, asking follow-up questions, providing reasons, ... much like Yackel and Cobb's discussion of sociomathematical norms that the teacher influenced through encouragement and attention. Related to your own depiction of a genres approach to notions of learning, the teacher's practice could be characterized as enculturation, where the learning goal was the children's acquisition of the disposition of a philosopher, to learn to think for oneself and with others. Though posted rules for discussion do reduce the degrees of freedom for participants, this acculturationist teacher used engagement with the rules as scaffolding until participating in a philosophical conversation became normative for the children. I appreciate your comments! Kim Kim Skinner, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Literacy Studies Louisiana State University School of Education 226 Peabody Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803 225.578.6709 ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+kskinner=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David H Kirshner Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 10:53 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Kim, thanks for sharing your article with the list. Picking up on the passage Larry seized on: "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for their claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority and reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on reasoning increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue transformed through group members practising in dialogue with each other" (p. 358). I'm wondering, what was the engine driving progress. The ground rules can't be it, for they're far too general (taking turns, listening to others, thinking before you speak, etc.). For instance, with respect to reasoning, all the ground rules state is "Give reasons for your beliefs" (p. 355). But, citing one's experience or else arguing on the basis of authority is still giving reasons. So there must have been something beyond the ground rules at play. Are you regarding the evolution of processes of reasoning as a "natural" evolution (in some sense); if one persists in civil dialogue long enough, a certain kind of progress ensues, and that's what's been captured in your data? Or is the teacher exerting some subtle influence (beyond providing the ground rules) that has guided the increasing sophistication of the students? David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kim Skinner Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2015 9:05 PM To: Goncu, Artin; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Hi Larry, I appreciate your comments and agree with your complication of "space" and "reasons." The philosophy club was indeed much more than a dialogic space, though in this particular manuscript I did focus on the words of the teacher and children. The use and function of the physical space, for example, was transformed after school by the teacher and children when they moved furniture to sit in a circle on the floor and created anchor charts as artifacts and reminders of the differentiated utility of this space after the last bell. I agree that by focusing on the rules seems counterintuitive as it was, after all, the "rules" of school discourse the teacher was trying to escape. However, as the philosophy club only met once a week, the "new rules" were important reminders for both the children and the teacher who transitioned from the school day IRE discourse to a peer led whole group conversation with the ringing of a bell. While the ground rules appear to delimit practices, in actuality their explicitness opened up this creative, situational, and dialogic space. Kim Kim Skinner, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Literacy Studies Louisiana State University School of Education 226 Peabody Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803 225.578.6709 ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+kskinner=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer Sent: Sunday, November 1, 2015 10:31 AM To: Goncu, Artin Cc: Activity eXtended Mind Culture Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Thanks Artin!! :) > On 2015-10-31, at 10:32 AM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > I join Ana and Andy, in thanking you, Jen and all, for your contributions. > The titles look great and I am looking forward to the discussions. > All the best, ag > > ---------------------------- Original Message > ---------------------------- > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion > From: "Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer" > Date: Sat, October 31, 2015 11:36 am > To: ablunden@mira.net > "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Cc: "W. Douglas Baker" > "Negar Amini" > "Wendy Turgeon" > "Hendricks, Christina" > "Weber, Barbara" > "Judith Green" > "M. Dobber" > "M. van der Veen" > "Daniel Anderson" > "H.J.M. van Oers" > "Susan Gardner" > "Peter Costello" > "Natalie Fletcher" > "Claire Alkouatli" > "Kym Maclaren" > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > Thanks for this, Andy, and thanks go to the lead editor Barbara Weber > on this issue as well! > > For folks who would like to know more about it, the editorial is also > available for free. There are 6 articles and 6 commentaries-we were > working toward a more dialogic feel-that move across and between > philosophy, psychology, and education. In addition, we were able to > include a book review on Jan Derry's fascinating book, Vygotsky, > philosophy and education. > > Our intention was to look at intersections of philosophy, psychology, > and education and we were very fortunate to locate authors with both > similar intentions and outstanding research to contribute. The > congratulations go to them: > > Wendy Turgeon > Christina Hendricks > Eva Marsal > Chiel van der Veen, Claudia van Kruistum, & Sarah Michaels Marjolein > Dobber & Bert van Oers Claire Alkouatli, Negar Amini, and Jen Kim > Skinner Doug Baker & Judith Green Kym Maclaren Peter Costello Susan > Gardner & Daniel Anderson Natalie Fletcher Arthur Wolf > > Thanks to everyone! > > Now, on to discussions of Kim Skinner's article!! > > Best - jen > > > >> On 2015-10-30, at 10:17 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Looks like a stunning issue, Jen! >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> On 31/10/2015 2:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> Jennifer and Kim, >>> This months article is sure to generate conversation. >>> The 2nd paragraph on page 358 caught my attention. >>> "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for >>> their claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority >>> and reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on >>> reasoning increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue >>> transformed through group members practising in dialogue with each other." >>> >>> The question this generates concerns the notion of *space* of >>> reasons. I hear a transfiguration from *foundational rule based* >>> space TO *dialogical >>> space* OF reasons. >>> >>> However are there other possible *spaces* of reason beyond either >>> foundational or dialogical *spaces* of reason. For example >>> *situational >>> spaces* or *creative spaces* OF reason. >>> Using a dramatical metaphor or table metaphor could the dialogical >>> *space of reasons* be a particular type of situation as answer to >>> foundational rule based reason, but the deeper truth is that we are >>> setting the table for multiple fluid "spaces* of reasoning. To >>> justify claims may be deeply implicated WITHIN plural notions of *spaces*. >>> Not either foundational or dialogical *spaces* but expanding to >>> multiple mixtures of various notions of reasons. >>> This in no way questions dialogical spaces of reason [as thinking] >>> but invites deeper exploration to how we orient to these multiple >>> *spaces* [each of which offers justifications.] >>> >>> To describe justification as re- semblance to a board game focuses >>> attention on the RULES of the game. THIS is a norm based image of >>> reasoning justifying moving *points* on the board as preconceived >>> grid. Situational *spaces* of reason are more creative *spaces* of >>> justification that are also historically implicated but more open to >>> novelty. >>> The question of justification is complicated and the relation of the >>> 4 types of justification far more entangled than reason >>> [foundational or dialogical] overcoming the other 3 types assumes. >>> >>> The orientation moving away from foundational spaces of reason to >>> dialogical spaces of reason is a profound transfiguration. It opens >>> the space of reason to creative novelty. It is possible to continue >>> going deeper to explore the profound depth of situations as *spaces* of reason. >>> >>> This months journal is moving across traditions and authorities and >>> experiences. The concept of *situational* spaces is the Pragmatic >>> tradition. Philosophical hermeneutics uses the concept *spaces of play*. >>> Are concepts merely *resources* or do they exhibit other characteristics?. >>> Dewey explored two notions of "have" >>> A possessive "have" and a relational "have" [We have a friend]. We >>> cannot possess *spaces* These *third* spaces have us and we >>> *undergo* experiences WITHIN these spaces. >>> >>> The *space* of reasons also has this quality of being more than > "resources" >>> to use in our practices of justification. Reasons are more than >>> tools of self management and self discipline. They are also *spaces* which have us. >>> >>> Reason is being re-thought and re-worked and will need multiple >>> *settings* to stage this activity. The space of reasons as >>> dialogical is one particular and valid and true space of >>> justification. It is not the only space. >>> Generating notions of *situations* and *spaces of play* and *zones* >>> are speaking this multi-verse being acted out as dramas. >>> >>> The after school setting created a particular situation opening up a >>> particular stage like *space* for generating particular types of >>> justification. It was a *third* space in which the dialogical comes >>> to the foreground. Ground is a fluid concept as is the concept of >>> *concrete* experience. Creative worlds emerge or unfold within these >>> *spaces* but > they >>> are not fundamentally grounded or permanently rule based. These >>> worlds are foregrounded and backgrounded within particular >>> situations [spaces of > play] >>> but they are primarily unknown on their way to be/coming known >>> without > end. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < >>> j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear XMCAers, >>>> >>>> The special issue of Mind, Culture, and Activity on Engaged >>>> Philosophical Inquiry is up and running. >>>> >>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current >>>> >>>> Kim Skinner, author of Acts of thinking: At school but not during >>>> school, has graciously agreed to make herself available for >>>> dialogue about her article on XMCA. >>>> >>>> If you have a moment to access and review the article, perhaps we >>>> can begin discussion early or mid next week? >>>> >>>> Best to all, jen > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > Professor Emeritus, > University of Illinois at Chicago > College of Education M/C 147 > 1040 W. Harrison St. > Chicago, IL 60607 From dkirsh@lsu.edu Mon Nov 9 14:48:14 2015 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 22:48:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] In-Reply-To: References: <6ce840cbf660664483f1af5cd46f9f5d.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu>, , Message-ID: Thanks, Kim. The discursive practices you cite--building on other's ideas, asking follow-up questions, providing reasons--seem like general norms of civil discourse, rather than philosophical practices, per se. Could your discursive goals have been met with discussion focused on literature or history or other content areas, or are the practices sought specifically philosophical, in some sense? My sense from reading your paper is that the philosophical heart of the discussions is by no means incidental. If that's the case, and if your answer, above, is that the discursive practices achieved are not specifically practices of philosophical discourse, then what is the basis for your focus on philosophical conversations? David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kim Skinner Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 1:44 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Hi David, Children participating in philosophical discussion learn to continually question, challenge, and evaluate... So yes, it was the discursive interactions "over time" that was key. While the ground rules may seem nebulous in list form, it was the interactions of participants over time that changed the children's discourse. For example, enactment of "Think before you speak" played out as a directive by the teacher, such as "Wait! Think about it," followed by almost a minute of silence before any discussion began. You are correct in assuming that the teacher reinforced student responses that modeled "what counts as" developing philosophical practices, such as, building on other's ideas, asking follow-up questions, providing reasons, ... much like Yackel and Cobb's discussion of sociomathematical norms that the teacher influenced through encouragement and attention. Related to your own depiction of a genres approach to notions of learning, the teacher's practice could be characterized as enculturation, where the learning goal was the children's acquisition of the disposition of a philosopher, to learn to think for oneself and with others. Though posted rules for discussion do reduce the degrees of freedom for participants, this acculturationist teacher used engagement with the rules as scaffolding until participating in a philosophical conversation became normative for the children. I appreciate your comments! Kim Kim Skinner, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Literacy Studies Louisiana State University School of Education 226 Peabody Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803 225.578.6709 ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+kskinner=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David H Kirshner Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 10:53 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Kim, thanks for sharing your article with the list. Picking up on the passage Larry seized on: "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for their claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority and reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on reasoning increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue transformed through group members practising in dialogue with each other" (p. 358). I'm wondering, what was the engine driving progress. The ground rules can't be it, for they're far too general (taking turns, listening to others, thinking before you speak, etc.). For instance, with respect to reasoning, all the ground rules state is "Give reasons for your beliefs" (p. 355). But, citing one's experience or else arguing on the basis of authority is still giving reasons. So there must have been something beyond the ground rules at play. Are you regarding the evolution of processes of reasoning as a "natural" evolution (in some sense); if one persists in civil dialogue long enough, a certain kind of progress ensues, and that's what's been captured in your data? Or is the teacher exerting some subtle influence (beyond providing the ground rules) that has guided the increasing sophistication of the students? David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kim Skinner Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2015 9:05 PM To: Goncu, Artin; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Hi Larry, I appreciate your comments and agree with your complication of "space" and "reasons." The philosophy club was indeed much more than a dialogic space, though in this particular manuscript I did focus on the words of the teacher and children. The use and function of the physical space, for example, was transformed after school by the teacher and children when they moved furniture to sit in a circle on the floor and created anchor charts as artifacts and reminders of the differentiated utility of this space after the last bell. I agree that by focusing on the rules seems counterintuitive as it was, after all, the "rules" of school discourse the teacher was trying to escape. However, as the philosophy club only met once a week, the "new rules" were important reminders for both the children and the teacher who transitioned from the school day IRE discourse to a peer led whole group conversation with the ringing of a bell. While the ground rules appear to delimit practices, in actuality their explicitness opened up this creative, situational, and dialogic space. Kim Kim Skinner, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Literacy Studies Louisiana State University School of Education 226 Peabody Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803 225.578.6709 ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+kskinner=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer Sent: Sunday, November 1, 2015 10:31 AM To: Goncu, Artin Cc: Activity eXtended Mind Culture Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Thanks Artin!! :) > On 2015-10-31, at 10:32 AM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > I join Ana and Andy, in thanking you, Jen and all, for your contributions. > The titles look great and I am looking forward to the discussions. > All the best, ag > > ---------------------------- Original Message > ---------------------------- > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion > From: "Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer" > Date: Sat, October 31, 2015 11:36 am > To: ablunden@mira.net > "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Cc: "W. Douglas Baker" > "Negar Amini" > "Wendy Turgeon" > "Hendricks, Christina" > "Weber, Barbara" > "Judith Green" > "M. Dobber" > "M. van der Veen" > "Daniel Anderson" > "H.J.M. van Oers" > "Susan Gardner" > "Peter Costello" > "Natalie Fletcher" > "Claire Alkouatli" > "Kym Maclaren" > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > Thanks for this, Andy, and thanks go to the lead editor Barbara Weber > on this issue as well! > > For folks who would like to know more about it, the editorial is also > available for free. There are 6 articles and 6 commentaries-we were > working toward a more dialogic feel-that move across and between > philosophy, psychology, and education. In addition, we were able to > include a book review on Jan Derry's fascinating book, Vygotsky, > philosophy and education. > > Our intention was to look at intersections of philosophy, psychology, > and education and we were very fortunate to locate authors with both > similar intentions and outstanding research to contribute. The > congratulations go to them: > > Wendy Turgeon > Christina Hendricks > Eva Marsal > Chiel van der Veen, Claudia van Kruistum, & Sarah Michaels Marjolein > Dobber & Bert van Oers Claire Alkouatli, Negar Amini, and Jen Kim > Skinner Doug Baker & Judith Green Kym Maclaren Peter Costello Susan > Gardner & Daniel Anderson Natalie Fletcher Arthur Wolf > > Thanks to everyone! > > Now, on to discussions of Kim Skinner's article!! > > Best - jen > > > >> On 2015-10-30, at 10:17 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Looks like a stunning issue, Jen! >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> On 31/10/2015 2:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> Jennifer and Kim, >>> This months article is sure to generate conversation. >>> The 2nd paragraph on page 358 caught my attention. >>> "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for >>> their claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority >>> and reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on >>> reasoning increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue >>> transformed through group members practising in dialogue with each other." >>> >>> The question this generates concerns the notion of *space* of >>> reasons. I hear a transfiguration from *foundational rule based* >>> space TO *dialogical >>> space* OF reasons. >>> >>> However are there other possible *spaces* of reason beyond either >>> foundational or dialogical *spaces* of reason. For example >>> *situational >>> spaces* or *creative spaces* OF reason. >>> Using a dramatical metaphor or table metaphor could the dialogical >>> *space of reasons* be a particular type of situation as answer to >>> foundational rule based reason, but the deeper truth is that we are >>> setting the table for multiple fluid "spaces* of reasoning. To >>> justify claims may be deeply implicated WITHIN plural notions of *spaces*. >>> Not either foundational or dialogical *spaces* but expanding to >>> multiple mixtures of various notions of reasons. >>> This in no way questions dialogical spaces of reason [as thinking] >>> but invites deeper exploration to how we orient to these multiple >>> *spaces* [each of which offers justifications.] >>> >>> To describe justification as re- semblance to a board game focuses >>> attention on the RULES of the game. THIS is a norm based image of >>> reasoning justifying moving *points* on the board as preconceived >>> grid. Situational *spaces* of reason are more creative *spaces* of >>> justification that are also historically implicated but more open to >>> novelty. >>> The question of justification is complicated and the relation of the >>> 4 types of justification far more entangled than reason >>> [foundational or dialogical] overcoming the other 3 types assumes. >>> >>> The orientation moving away from foundational spaces of reason to >>> dialogical spaces of reason is a profound transfiguration. It opens >>> the space of reason to creative novelty. It is possible to continue >>> going deeper to explore the profound depth of situations as *spaces* of reason. >>> >>> This months journal is moving across traditions and authorities and >>> experiences. The concept of *situational* spaces is the Pragmatic >>> tradition. Philosophical hermeneutics uses the concept *spaces of play*. >>> Are concepts merely *resources* or do they exhibit other characteristics?. >>> Dewey explored two notions of "have" >>> A possessive "have" and a relational "have" [We have a friend]. We >>> cannot possess *spaces* These *third* spaces have us and we >>> *undergo* experiences WITHIN these spaces. >>> >>> The *space* of reasons also has this quality of being more than > "resources" >>> to use in our practices of justification. Reasons are more than >>> tools of self management and self discipline. They are also *spaces* which have us. >>> >>> Reason is being re-thought and re-worked and will need multiple >>> *settings* to stage this activity. The space of reasons as >>> dialogical is one particular and valid and true space of >>> justification. It is not the only space. >>> Generating notions of *situations* and *spaces of play* and *zones* >>> are speaking this multi-verse being acted out as dramas. >>> >>> The after school setting created a particular situation opening up a >>> particular stage like *space* for generating particular types of >>> justification. It was a *third* space in which the dialogical comes >>> to the foreground. Ground is a fluid concept as is the concept of >>> *concrete* experience. Creative worlds emerge or unfold within these >>> *spaces* but > they >>> are not fundamentally grounded or permanently rule based. These >>> worlds are foregrounded and backgrounded within particular >>> situations [spaces of > play] >>> but they are primarily unknown on their way to be/coming known >>> without > end. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < >>> j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear XMCAers, >>>> >>>> The special issue of Mind, Culture, and Activity on Engaged >>>> Philosophical Inquiry is up and running. >>>> >>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current >>>> >>>> Kim Skinner, author of Acts of thinking: At school but not during >>>> school, has graciously agreed to make herself available for >>>> dialogue about her article on XMCA. >>>> >>>> If you have a moment to access and review the article, perhaps we >>>> can begin discussion early or mid next week? >>>> >>>> Best to all, jen > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > Professor Emeritus, > University of Illinois at Chicago > College of Education M/C 147 > 1040 W. Harrison St. > Chicago, IL 60607 From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Nov 9 17:01:05 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 17:01:05 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Volunteer Mentoring and XMCA Message-ID: Dear Colleagues- I come to you with a problem. As journal editors, those of us engaged in the publication process of producing MCA pretty often receive submissions that are simply sent to the wrong place or are going about their research in a manner that will not be understood or appreciated by the readership that has accumulated. My PhD thesis on probability learning would if into this category, as well as standard research using cause effect, experimental methods with no consciousness of their difficulties. But sometimes there are exceptions. They are very problematic in some way, but are often from very junior people, just feeling their way. In those cases, informally, we have all undertaken special efforts to provide extra rounds of interaction before submission, or suggested other venues, and helped the person find them. The problem is, we are few in number, we cannot expect reviewers to take on such a burden. They already do a ton of work as it is. An education to read. So what to do, and when to do it? I have no answer to the general problem. But I do have a case of a young third world student who is badly in need of long distance tutoring in order for her to convert the work she has done into something publishable. This person is very junior and her English is not wonderful, but she had done a conventional piece of work that she needs to polish up a lot more than she is currently doing, or it is not publishable. In this case, the work has to be legible to standard psychology. The topic is the relationship between diagnosed learning disabilities and violence among youth who are living in violent circumstances. She lives in such circumstances. My life will not allow me to take on this case. But maybe someone out there would be interested in such engagement. If so, please write to me privately at lchcmike@ucsd.edu mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From helenaworthen@gmail.com Mon Nov 9 23:02:54 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:02:54 +0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Volunteer Mentoring and XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3262BDFB-4F69-4FF5-8881-75FCEA154C0F@gmail.com> MIke, let me give it a try. Joe and I are currently in Vietnam teaching labor studies courses to students at Ton Duc Thang University, a technical school supported by the Vietnam General Confederation of Labor, the union here. Our students are first generation students. There is big pressure for the faculty to do research and publish. Desperation, in fact. But this is what we're in the middle of. So pass it along. Helena PS I've been keeping a blog on this and would enjoy comments. A lot of it is about the education system here, although there's some tourist stuff. Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Nov 10, 2015, at 8:01 AM, mike cole wrote: > Dear Colleagues- I come to you with a problem. > > As journal editors, those of us engaged in the publication process of > producing MCA pretty often receive submissions that are simply sent to the > wrong place or are going about their research in a manner that will not be > understood or appreciated by the readership that has accumulated. My PhD > thesis on probability learning would if into this category, as well as > standard research using cause effect, experimental methods with no > consciousness of their difficulties. > > But sometimes there are exceptions. They are very problematic in some way, > but are often from very junior people, just feeling their way. In those > cases, informally, we have all undertaken special efforts to provide extra > rounds of interaction before submission, or suggested other venues, and > helped the person find them. > > The problem is, we are few in number, we cannot expect reviewers to take on > such a burden. They already do > a ton of work as it is. An education to read. > > So what to do, and when to do it? I have no answer to the general problem. > But I do have a case of a young third world student who is badly in need of > long distance tutoring in order for her to convert the work she has done > into something publishable. This person is very junior and her English is > not wonderful, but she had done a conventional piece of work that she needs > to polish up a lot more than she is currently doing, or it is not > publishable. > In this case, the work has to be legible to standard psychology. The topic > is the relationship between diagnosed learning disabilities and violence > among youth who are living in violent circumstances. She lives in such > circumstances. > > My life will not allow me to take on this case. But maybe someone out there > would be interested in such engagement. > > If so, please write to me privately at > lchcmike@ucsd.edu > > mike > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From smago@uga.edu Tue Nov 10 02:45:51 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:45:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CNN Breaking News In-Reply-To: References: <721224930.4664.1447086495430.JavaMail.cmutil@cmfspdiprod2> , , Message-ID: I think this story is about a whole lot more than the $1million they'd forfeit if they cancelled Saturday's football game. http://onlineathens.com/local-news/2015-11-09/university-missouri-president-chancellor-leave-over-race-tension Their football program brought in $83 million last year (http://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/sec/university-of-missouri/article8564105.html). Most universities are paying out much more just in fired coach salaries. I think this is a real story of a group of students taking action to change social policies through dramatic action. Power to the Players! -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 2:35 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CNN Breaking News I heard a story on the PBS radio channel just now, and I learned that the Missouri university would have had to pay Brigham Young ONE MILLION dollars for forfeiting the upcoming football game. THAT is likely why the President stepped down. Not because of the intrinsic issues, of course, but for the cost to the university. Apparently the climate was pretty bad there. With plenty of deniers, In the story the said there were students throwing cotton balls in front of AA organizations. Now all incoming students are going to get diversity training. The world needs diversity training, actually. From smago@uga.edu Tue Nov 10 03:21:58 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:21:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] more on mizzou Message-ID: Jay Bookman is the Voice of Reason for the Atlanta region. I think this essay is on target about the Missouri football players' rebellion against rampant racism on campus. Congratulations to these kids for standing up for themselves and for human rights on campus. http://jaybookman.blog.myajc.com/2015/11/09/so-32-football-players-can-force-a-university-president-to-quit/ From ablunden@mira.net Tue Nov 10 06:46:41 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 01:46:41 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Volunteer Mentoring and XMCA In-Reply-To: <3262BDFB-4F69-4FF5-8881-75FCEA154C0F@gmail.com> References: <3262BDFB-4F69-4FF5-8881-75FCEA154C0F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56420351.9040001@mira.net> Helena's blog: https://helenaworthen.wordpress.com/ Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 10/11/2015 6:02 PM, Helena Worthen wrote: > MIke, let me give it a try. Joe and I are currently in Vietnam teaching labor studies courses to students at Ton Duc Thang University, a technical school supported by the Vietnam General Confederation of Labor, the union here. Our students are first generation students. There is big pressure for the faculty to do research and publish. Desperation, in fact. But this is what we're in the middle of. So pass it along. > > Helena > > PS I've been keeping a blog on this and would enjoy comments. A lot of it is about the education system here, although there's some tourist stuff. > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > > > On Nov 10, 2015, at 8:01 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues- I come to you with a problem. >> >> As journal editors, those of us engaged in the publication process of >> producing MCA pretty often receive submissions that are simply sent to the >> wrong place or are going about their research in a manner that will not be >> understood or appreciated by the readership that has accumulated. My PhD >> thesis on probability learning would if into this category, as well as >> standard research using cause effect, experimental methods with no >> consciousness of their difficulties. >> >> But sometimes there are exceptions. They are very problematic in some way, >> but are often from very junior people, just feeling their way. In those >> cases, informally, we have all undertaken special efforts to provide extra >> rounds of interaction before submission, or suggested other venues, and >> helped the person find them. >> >> The problem is, we are few in number, we cannot expect reviewers to take on >> such a burden. They already do >> a ton of work as it is. An education to read. >> >> So what to do, and when to do it? I have no answer to the general problem. >> But I do have a case of a young third world student who is badly in need of >> long distance tutoring in order for her to convert the work she has done >> into something publishable. This person is very junior and her English is >> not wonderful, but she had done a conventional piece of work that she needs >> to polish up a lot more than she is currently doing, or it is not >> publishable. >> In this case, the work has to be legible to standard psychology. The topic >> is the relationship between diagnosed learning disabilities and violence >> among youth who are living in violent circumstances. She lives in such >> circumstances. >> >> My life will not allow me to take on this case. But maybe someone out there >> would be interested in such engagement. >> >> If so, please write to me privately at >> lchcmike@ucsd.edu >> >> mike >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > From kskinner@lsu.edu Tue Nov 10 06:47:10 2015 From: kskinner@lsu.edu (Kim Skinner) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:47:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] In-Reply-To: References: <6ce840cbf660664483f1af5cd46f9f5d.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu>, , , Message-ID: Hi David, Great question! While there are other forms of discourse with components similar to philosophical conversation, they differ in several distinct ways. In this context, the topics for each discussion were chosen after the teacher read a children's literature text with a controversial theme. The teacher modeled the selection of discussion questions for the children initially but over time the children self-selected the questions...Questions such as What is fair? Why do people go to war? Is war ever good? What is good art? These are a few of the many questions the children chose over the course of the year. So, while there are other discourses, like O'Connor's accountable talk, with similar formats, they differ in stimulus, in purpose, and in outcome. Kim Kim Skinner, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Literacy Studies Louisiana State University School of Education 226 Peabody Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803 225.578.6709 ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+kskinner=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David H Kirshner Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:48 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Thanks, Kim. The discursive practices you cite--building on other's ideas, asking follow-up questions, providing reasons--seem like general norms of civil discourse, rather than philosophical practices, per se. Could your discursive goals have been met with discussion focused on literature or history or other content areas, or are the practices sought specifically philosophical, in some sense? My sense from reading your paper is that the philosophical heart of the discussions is by no means incidental. If that's the case, and if your answer, above, is that the discursive practices achieved are not specifically practices of philosophical discourse, then what is the basis for your focus on philosophical conversations? David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kim Skinner Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 1:44 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Hi David, Children participating in philosophical discussion learn to continually question, challenge, and evaluate... So yes, it was the discursive interactions "over time" that was key. While the ground rules may seem nebulous in list form, it was the interactions of participants over time that changed the children's discourse. For example, enactment of "Think before you speak" played out as a directive by the teacher, such as "Wait! Think about it," followed by almost a minute of silence before any discussion began. You are correct in assuming that the teacher reinforced student responses that modeled "what counts as" developing philosophical practices, such as, building on other's ideas, asking follow-up questions, providing reasons, ... much like Yackel and Cobb's discussion of sociomathematical norms that the teacher influenced through encouragement and attention. Related to your own depiction of a genres approach to notions of learning, the teacher's practice could be characterized as enculturation, where the learning goal was the children's acquisition of the disposition of a philosopher, to learn to think for oneself and with others. Though posted rules for discussion do reduce the degrees of freedom for participants, this acculturationist teacher used engagement with the rules as scaffolding until participating in a philosophical conversation became normative for the children. I appreciate your comments! Kim Kim Skinner, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Literacy Studies Louisiana State University School of Education 226 Peabody Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803 225.578.6709 ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+kskinner=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David H Kirshner Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 10:53 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Kim, thanks for sharing your article with the list. Picking up on the passage Larry seized on: "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for their claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority and reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on reasoning increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue transformed through group members practising in dialogue with each other" (p. 358). I'm wondering, what was the engine driving progress. The ground rules can't be it, for they're far too general (taking turns, listening to others, thinking before you speak, etc.). For instance, with respect to reasoning, all the ground rules state is "Give reasons for your beliefs" (p. 355). But, citing one's experience or else arguing on the basis of authority is still giving reasons. So there must have been something beyond the ground rules at play. Are you regarding the evolution of processes of reasoning as a "natural" evolution (in some sense); if one persists in civil dialogue long enough, a certain kind of progress ensues, and that's what's been captured in your data? Or is the teacher exerting some subtle influence (beyond providing the ground rules) that has guided the increasing sophistication of the students? David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kim Skinner Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2015 9:05 PM To: Goncu, Artin; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Hi Larry, I appreciate your comments and agree with your complication of "space" and "reasons." The philosophy club was indeed much more than a dialogic space, though in this particular manuscript I did focus on the words of the teacher and children. The use and function of the physical space, for example, was transformed after school by the teacher and children when they moved furniture to sit in a circle on the floor and created anchor charts as artifacts and reminders of the differentiated utility of this space after the last bell. I agree that by focusing on the rules seems counterintuitive as it was, after all, the "rules" of school discourse the teacher was trying to escape. However, as the philosophy club only met once a week, the "new rules" were important reminders for both the children and the teacher who transitioned from the school day IRE discourse to a peer led whole group conversation with the ringing of a bell. While the ground rules appear to delimit practices, in actuality their explicitness opened up this creative, situational, and dialogic space. Kim Kim Skinner, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Literacy Studies Louisiana State University School of Education 226 Peabody Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803 225.578.6709 ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+kskinner=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer Sent: Sunday, November 1, 2015 10:31 AM To: Goncu, Artin Cc: Activity eXtended Mind Culture Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Thanks Artin!! :) > On 2015-10-31, at 10:32 AM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > I join Ana and Andy, in thanking you, Jen and all, for your contributions. > The titles look great and I am looking forward to the discussions. > All the best, ag > > ---------------------------- Original Message > ---------------------------- > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion > From: "Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer" > Date: Sat, October 31, 2015 11:36 am > To: ablunden@mira.net > "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Cc: "W. Douglas Baker" > "Negar Amini" > "Wendy Turgeon" > "Hendricks, Christina" > "Weber, Barbara" > "Judith Green" > "M. Dobber" > "M. van der Veen" > "Daniel Anderson" > "H.J.M. van Oers" > "Susan Gardner" > "Peter Costello" > "Natalie Fletcher" > "Claire Alkouatli" > "Kym Maclaren" > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > Thanks for this, Andy, and thanks go to the lead editor Barbara Weber > on this issue as well! > > For folks who would like to know more about it, the editorial is also > available for free. There are 6 articles and 6 commentaries-we were > working toward a more dialogic feel-that move across and between > philosophy, psychology, and education. In addition, we were able to > include a book review on Jan Derry's fascinating book, Vygotsky, > philosophy and education. > > Our intention was to look at intersections of philosophy, psychology, > and education and we were very fortunate to locate authors with both > similar intentions and outstanding research to contribute. The > congratulations go to them: > > Wendy Turgeon > Christina Hendricks > Eva Marsal > Chiel van der Veen, Claudia van Kruistum, & Sarah Michaels Marjolein > Dobber & Bert van Oers Claire Alkouatli, Negar Amini, and Jen Kim > Skinner Doug Baker & Judith Green Kym Maclaren Peter Costello Susan > Gardner & Daniel Anderson Natalie Fletcher Arthur Wolf > > Thanks to everyone! > > Now, on to discussions of Kim Skinner's article!! > > Best - jen > > > >> On 2015-10-30, at 10:17 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Looks like a stunning issue, Jen! >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> On 31/10/2015 2:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> Jennifer and Kim, >>> This months article is sure to generate conversation. >>> The 2nd paragraph on page 358 caught my attention. >>> "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for >>> their claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority >>> and reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on >>> reasoning increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue >>> transformed through group members practising in dialogue with each other." >>> >>> The question this generates concerns the notion of *space* of >>> reasons. I hear a transfiguration from *foundational rule based* >>> space TO *dialogical >>> space* OF reasons. >>> >>> However are there other possible *spaces* of reason beyond either >>> foundational or dialogical *spaces* of reason. For example >>> *situational >>> spaces* or *creative spaces* OF reason. >>> Using a dramatical metaphor or table metaphor could the dialogical >>> *space of reasons* be a particular type of situation as answer to >>> foundational rule based reason, but the deeper truth is that we are >>> setting the table for multiple fluid "spaces* of reasoning. To >>> justify claims may be deeply implicated WITHIN plural notions of *spaces*. >>> Not either foundational or dialogical *spaces* but expanding to >>> multiple mixtures of various notions of reasons. >>> This in no way questions dialogical spaces of reason [as thinking] >>> but invites deeper exploration to how we orient to these multiple >>> *spaces* [each of which offers justifications.] >>> >>> To describe justification as re- semblance to a board game focuses >>> attention on the RULES of the game. THIS is a norm based image of >>> reasoning justifying moving *points* on the board as preconceived >>> grid. Situational *spaces* of reason are more creative *spaces* of >>> justification that are also historically implicated but more open to >>> novelty. >>> The question of justification is complicated and the relation of the >>> 4 types of justification far more entangled than reason >>> [foundational or dialogical] overcoming the other 3 types assumes. >>> >>> The orientation moving away from foundational spaces of reason to >>> dialogical spaces of reason is a profound transfiguration. It opens >>> the space of reason to creative novelty. It is possible to continue >>> going deeper to explore the profound depth of situations as *spaces* of reason. >>> >>> This months journal is moving across traditions and authorities and >>> experiences. The concept of *situational* spaces is the Pragmatic >>> tradition. Philosophical hermeneutics uses the concept *spaces of play*. >>> Are concepts merely *resources* or do they exhibit other characteristics?. >>> Dewey explored two notions of "have" >>> A possessive "have" and a relational "have" [We have a friend]. We >>> cannot possess *spaces* These *third* spaces have us and we >>> *undergo* experiences WITHIN these spaces. >>> >>> The *space* of reasons also has this quality of being more than > "resources" >>> to use in our practices of justification. Reasons are more than >>> tools of self management and self discipline. They are also *spaces* which have us. >>> >>> Reason is being re-thought and re-worked and will need multiple >>> *settings* to stage this activity. The space of reasons as >>> dialogical is one particular and valid and true space of >>> justification. It is not the only space. >>> Generating notions of *situations* and *spaces of play* and *zones* >>> are speaking this multi-verse being acted out as dramas. >>> >>> The after school setting created a particular situation opening up a >>> particular stage like *space* for generating particular types of >>> justification. It was a *third* space in which the dialogical comes >>> to the foreground. Ground is a fluid concept as is the concept of >>> *concrete* experience. Creative worlds emerge or unfold within these >>> *spaces* but > they >>> are not fundamentally grounded or permanently rule based. These >>> worlds are foregrounded and backgrounded within particular >>> situations [spaces of > play] >>> but they are primarily unknown on their way to be/coming known >>> without > end. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < >>> j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear XMCAers, >>>> >>>> The special issue of Mind, Culture, and Activity on Engaged >>>> Philosophical Inquiry is up and running. >>>> >>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current >>>> >>>> Kim Skinner, author of Acts of thinking: At school but not during >>>> school, has graciously agreed to make herself available for >>>> dialogue about her article on XMCA. >>>> >>>> If you have a moment to access and review the article, perhaps we >>>> can begin discussion early or mid next week? >>>> >>>> Best to all, jen > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > Professor Emeritus, > University of Illinois at Chicago > College of Education M/C 147 > 1040 W. Harrison St. > Chicago, IL 60607 From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Nov 10 07:54:09 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 07:54:09 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Volunteer Mentoring and XMCA In-Reply-To: <3262BDFB-4F69-4FF5-8881-75FCEA154C0F@gmail.com> References: <3262BDFB-4F69-4FF5-8881-75FCEA154C0F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Marvelous, Helena! If you have skype we might chat. First I will send oyu the abstract and will be glad to work with you to see if this can be shaped into something for a journal like journal of learning disabilities. After you get the abstract, lets be in touch to see if it is too far a reach, and if not, how to get it done with as little strain as possible. mike On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 11:02 PM, Helena Worthen wrote: > MIke, let me give it a try. Joe and I are currently in Vietnam teaching > labor studies courses to students at Ton Duc Thang University, a technical > school supported by the Vietnam General Confederation of Labor, the union > here. Our students are first generation students. There is big pressure for > the faculty to do research and publish. Desperation, in fact. But this is > what we're in the middle of. So pass it along. > > Helena > > PS I've been keeping a blog on this and would enjoy comments. A lot of it > is about the education system here, although there's some tourist stuff. > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > > > On Nov 10, 2015, at 8:01 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > Dear Colleagues- I come to you with a problem. > > > > As journal editors, those of us engaged in the publication process of > > producing MCA pretty often receive submissions that are simply sent to > the > > wrong place or are going about their research in a manner that will not > be > > understood or appreciated by the readership that has accumulated. My PhD > > thesis on probability learning would if into this category, as well as > > standard research using cause effect, experimental methods with no > > consciousness of their difficulties. > > > > But sometimes there are exceptions. They are very problematic in some > way, > > but are often from very junior people, just feeling their way. In those > > cases, informally, we have all undertaken special efforts to provide > extra > > rounds of interaction before submission, or suggested other venues, and > > helped the person find them. > > > > The problem is, we are few in number, we cannot expect reviewers to take > on > > such a burden. They already do > > a ton of work as it is. An education to read. > > > > So what to do, and when to do it? I have no answer to the general > problem. > > But I do have a case of a young third world student who is badly in need > of > > long distance tutoring in order for her to convert the work she has done > > into something publishable. This person is very junior and her English is > > not wonderful, but she had done a conventional piece of work that she > needs > > to polish up a lot more than she is currently doing, or it is not > > publishable. > > In this case, the work has to be legible to standard psychology. The > topic > > is the relationship between diagnosed learning disabilities and violence > > among youth who are living in violent circumstances. She lives in such > > circumstances. > > > > My life will not allow me to take on this case. But maybe someone out > there > > would be interested in such engagement. > > > > If so, please write to me privately at > > lchcmike@ucsd.edu > > > > mike > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From smago@uga.edu Tue Nov 10 09:12:08 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:12:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: ARLE News In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Rijlaarsdam, Gert [mailto:G.C.W.Rijlaarsdam@uva.nl] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 12:11 PM To: Peter Smagorinsky Subject: ARLE News [Logo ARLE - International association for research in l1 education] Members information November 2015 ARLE (fka IAIMTE) Dear ARLE member, Here are three ARLE items to notice 1. ARLE conference (11th International conference) will be held in Tallinn, Estonia, organized by Krista Kerge (Tallinn), Helin Puksand (Tallinn) and Kersti Lepaj?e (Tartu). Dates: 14 June 2017 (Preconference PhD candidates), 15-17 June 2017. Note that the weekdays are different from earlier conferences: in 2017 the conference runs from Wednesday (Pre-conference) until Saturday. When you include the Saturday night in your schedule, flight tariffs are cheaper . 2. Special issues L1 Educational Studies in Language and Literature Please check the journal's website which presents a call for the Role of Writing in Literature Education (deadline November 15th) and Executive functions and children?s literacy development (deadline December 15th). 3. The preparation for the new ARLE website are almost completed. we now search for an ARLE member who wants to serve the community as webmaster. If interested, please contact Gert Rijlaarsdam. Kind regards, [cid:image002.jpg@01D11BE1.AD859760] Prof. Dr Irene Pieper, chair of ARLE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 7072 bytes Desc: image001.png Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151110/aa9a556d/attachment.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2548 bytes Desc: image002.jpg Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151110/aa9a556d/attachment.jpg From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Nov 10 09:18:54 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:18:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CNN Breaking News In-Reply-To: References: <721224930.4664.1447086495430.JavaMail.cmutil@cmfspdiprod2> , , , Message-ID: Hello Peter, First, I agree with you 1000% this story is a lot more than about 1 million dollars to forfeit to Brigham Young, and I'm kind of surprised that my post was taken that way. I think the point I was making, which apparently was too subtle or ironic, is that in order for the university to do anything about the true nature of the problem, it had to be hit significantly in the pocketbook, rather than doing the right thing from the start. In addition as you point out, which only emphasizes my point, the idea of not only paying $1 million in forfeiture but the FEAR of jeopardizing $83 million was likely motivation to spend (perhaps?) $1 million in diversity training, and boot the President. For me, this has on its face the look of "doing something" but it is a kind of "doing something" that doesn't appear authentic. That is, addressing grievances of the students who have been hurt by racism in everyday activities on campus. Let me explain better: I applaud the actions of the football players, to be sure. What they did was superbly cool. At the same time, the action creates a kind of class division between the football players and student activists who where fighting on the ground from the start, resulting in a hunger strike by one student. The football players should have not had to threaten to strike at all. I hope that my point is clearer now. Am I happy that this happened? Yes? Could it mean that professional black football players might follow suit and use a strike as a ploy to provide more attention to Black Lives Matter? that would be interesting, and welcome, but unlikely because they would likely be punished economically in return. College football players have the power that they have in this instance because they are not being paid to play football. The question for me is: why do these kinds of activism have to even exist when on its face it's pretty clear what change must be with or without the activism? Kind regards, Annalisa From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Nov 10 09:39:41 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:39:41 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CNN Breaking News Message-ID: The LA clippers' players ?could learn a lot from these young brothers! Sent on a Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note? II
-------- Original message --------
From: Peter Smagorinsky
Date:11/10/2015 5:45 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CNN Breaking News
I think this story is about a whole lot more than the $1million they'd forfeit if they cancelled Saturday's football game. http://onlineathens.com/local-news/2015-11-09/university-missouri-president-chancellor-leave-over-race-tension Their football program brought in $83 million last year (http://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/sec/university-of-missouri/article8564105.html). Most universities are paying out much more just in fired coach salaries. I think this is a real story of a group of students taking action to change social policies through dramatic action. Power to the Players! -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 2:35 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CNN Breaking News I heard a story on the PBS radio channel just now, and I learned that the Missouri university would have had to pay Brigham Young ONE MILLION dollars for forfeiting the upcoming football game. THAT is likely why the President stepped down. Not because of the intrinsic issues, of course, but for the cost to the university. Apparently the climate was pretty bad there. With plenty of deniers, In the story the said there were students throwing cotton balls in front of AA organizations. Now all incoming students are going to get diversity training. The world needs diversity training, actually. From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Tue Nov 10 11:21:53 2015 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:21:53 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Halloween, Yale and other complications Message-ID: And so it goes with Halloween... It seems that this holiday is becoming a college issue. Here, a college master (I never liked the term because of the slavery implications it has), got in trouble because it did something different than the other university president: she asked the students to think independently. And the students were, of course, disgusted because of the request. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intolerance-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/ From smago@uga.edu Tue Nov 10 12:09:29 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:09:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In case anyone's interested, I recently was a guest on the Atlanta NPR station, talking about political correctness (the implicit theme of David's article on Yale). 2015 WABE (NPR) 90.5FM Atlanta: College PC Culture: It?s Not About Offending But Respecting http://news.wabe.org/post/college-pc-culture-it-s-not-about-offending-respecting -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Halloween, Yale and other complications And so it goes with Halloween... It seems that this holiday is becoming a college issue. Here, a college master (I never liked the term because of the slavery implications it has), got in trouble because it did something different than the other university president: she asked the students to think independently. And the students were, of course, disgusted because of the request. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intolerance-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/ From dkirsh@lsu.edu Tue Nov 10 16:25:29 2015 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 00:25:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] In-Reply-To: References: <6ce840cbf660664483f1af5cd46f9f5d.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu>, , , Message-ID: Kim, I want to note the disjunction between the purported goals of the study--"building on other's ideas, asking follow-up questions, providing reasons"--that are general practices of civil (or perhaps academic) discourse, and the motives regarding philosophy, which relate to fostering children's interest in pursuing certain, specifically philosophical, topics: "The teacher modeled the selection of discussion questions for the children initially but over time the children self-selected the questions." What guided the decisions to forefront the former set of goals in your framing of the MCA article? (...and in the broader study as well)? In both cases, what is the cultural work being attempted; i.e., what are the cultural locations of the students in relation to the cultures being promoted? Is the goal instrumental--to provide cultural resources that may be called upon (or not) in engagements within the broader culture (this seems more likely for the first agenda)? Or is the goal to influence cultural self-identity (as seems more likely for the second agenda)? A full crossdisciplinary analysis would pursue such questions. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kim Skinner Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 8:47 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Hi David, Great question! While there are other forms of discourse with components similar to philosophical conversation, they differ in several distinct ways. In this context, the topics for each discussion were chosen after the teacher read a children's literature text with a controversial theme. The teacher modeled the selection of discussion questions for the children initially but over time the children self-selected the questions...Questions such as What is fair? Why do people go to war? Is war ever good? What is good art? These are a few of the many questions the children chose over the course of the year. So, while there are other discourses, like O'Connor's accountable talk, with similar formats, they differ in stimulus, in purpose, and in outcome. Kim Kim Skinner, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Literacy Studies Louisiana State University School of Education 226 Peabody Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803 225.578.6709 ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+kskinner=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David H Kirshner Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:48 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Thanks, Kim. The discursive practices you cite--building on other's ideas, asking follow-up questions, providing reasons--seem like general norms of civil discourse, rather than philosophical practices, per se. Could your discursive goals have been met with discussion focused on literature or history or other content areas, or are the practices sought specifically philosophical, in some sense? My sense from reading your paper is that the philosophical heart of the discussions is by no means incidental. If that's the case, and if your answer, above, is that the discursive practices achieved are not specifically practices of philosophical discourse, then what is the basis for your focus on philosophical conversations? David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kim Skinner Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 1:44 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Hi David, Children participating in philosophical discussion learn to continually question, challenge, and evaluate... So yes, it was the discursive interactions "over time" that was key. While the ground rules may seem nebulous in list form, it was the interactions of participants over time that changed the children's discourse. For example, enactment of "Think before you speak" played out as a directive by the teacher, such as "Wait! Think about it," followed by almost a minute of silence before any discussion began. You are correct in assuming that the teacher reinforced student responses that modeled "what counts as" developing philosophical practices, such as, building on other's ideas, asking follow-up questions, providing reasons, ... much like Yackel and Cobb's discussion of sociomathematical norms that the teacher influenced through encouragement and attention. Related to your own depiction of a genres approach to notions of learning, the teacher's practice could be characterized as enculturation, where the learning goal was the children's acquisition of the disposition of a philosopher, to learn to think for oneself and with others. Though posted rules for discussion do reduce the degrees of freedom for participants, this acculturationist teacher used engagement with the rules as scaffolding until participating in a philosophical conversation became normative for the children. I appreciate your comments! Kim Kim Skinner, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Literacy Studies Louisiana State University School of Education 226 Peabody Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803 225.578.6709 ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+kskinner=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David H Kirshner Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 10:53 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Kim, thanks for sharing your article with the list. Picking up on the passage Larry seized on: "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for their claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority and reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on reasoning increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue transformed through group members practising in dialogue with each other" (p. 358). I'm wondering, what was the engine driving progress. The ground rules can't be it, for they're far too general (taking turns, listening to others, thinking before you speak, etc.). For instance, with respect to reasoning, all the ground rules state is "Give reasons for your beliefs" (p. 355). But, citing one's experience or else arguing on the basis of authority is still giving reasons. So there must have been something beyond the ground rules at play. Are you regarding the evolution of processes of reasoning as a "natural" evolution (in some sense); if one persists in civil dialogue long enough, a certain kind of progress ensues, and that's what's been captured in your data? Or is the teacher exerting some subtle influence (beyond providing the ground rules) that has guided the increasing sophistication of the students? David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kim Skinner Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2015 9:05 PM To: Goncu, Artin; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Hi Larry, I appreciate your comments and agree with your complication of "space" and "reasons." The philosophy club was indeed much more than a dialogic space, though in this particular manuscript I did focus on the words of the teacher and children. The use and function of the physical space, for example, was transformed after school by the teacher and children when they moved furniture to sit in a circle on the floor and created anchor charts as artifacts and reminders of the differentiated utility of this space after the last bell. I agree that by focusing on the rules seems counterintuitive as it was, after all, the "rules" of school discourse the teacher was trying to escape. However, as the philosophy club only met once a week, the "new rules" were important reminders for both the children and the teacher who transitioned from the school day IRE discourse to a peer led whole group conversation with the ringing of a bell. While the ground rules appear to delimit practices, in actuality their explicitness opened up this creative, situational, and dialogic space. Kim Kim Skinner, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Literacy Studies Louisiana State University School of Education 226 Peabody Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803 225.578.6709 ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+kskinner=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer Sent: Sunday, November 1, 2015 10:31 AM To: Goncu, Artin Cc: Activity eXtended Mind Culture Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Re: Article for Discussion] Thanks Artin!! :) > On 2015-10-31, at 10:32 AM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > I join Ana and Andy, in thanking you, Jen and all, for your contributions. > The titles look great and I am looking forward to the discussions. > All the best, ag > > ---------------------------- Original Message > ---------------------------- > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion > From: "Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer" > Date: Sat, October 31, 2015 11:36 am > To: ablunden@mira.net > "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Cc: "W. Douglas Baker" > "Negar Amini" > "Wendy Turgeon" > "Hendricks, Christina" > "Weber, Barbara" > "Judith Green" > "M. Dobber" > "M. van der Veen" > "Daniel Anderson" > "H.J.M. van Oers" > "Susan Gardner" > "Peter Costello" > "Natalie Fletcher" > "Claire Alkouatli" > "Kym Maclaren" > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > Thanks for this, Andy, and thanks go to the lead editor Barbara Weber > on this issue as well! > > For folks who would like to know more about it, the editorial is also > available for free. There are 6 articles and 6 commentaries-we were > working toward a more dialogic feel-that move across and between > philosophy, psychology, and education. In addition, we were able to > include a book review on Jan Derry's fascinating book, Vygotsky, > philosophy and education. > > Our intention was to look at intersections of philosophy, psychology, > and education and we were very fortunate to locate authors with both > similar intentions and outstanding research to contribute. The > congratulations go to them: > > Wendy Turgeon > Christina Hendricks > Eva Marsal > Chiel van der Veen, Claudia van Kruistum, & Sarah Michaels Marjolein > Dobber & Bert van Oers Claire Alkouatli, Negar Amini, and Jen Kim > Skinner Doug Baker & Judith Green Kym Maclaren Peter Costello Susan > Gardner & Daniel Anderson Natalie Fletcher Arthur Wolf > > Thanks to everyone! > > Now, on to discussions of Kim Skinner's article!! > > Best - jen > > > >> On 2015-10-30, at 10:17 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Looks like a stunning issue, Jen! >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> On 31/10/2015 2:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> Jennifer and Kim, >>> This months article is sure to generate conversation. >>> The 2nd paragraph on page 358 caught my attention. >>> "Ethnographic evidence showed the children's justifications for >>> their claims fell into four categories: experience, text, authority >>> and reasoning. .... over time, justification for claims based on >>> reasoning increased. The nature and the content of the dialogue >>> transformed through group members practising in dialogue with each other." >>> >>> The question this generates concerns the notion of *space* of >>> reasons. I hear a transfiguration from *foundational rule based* >>> space TO *dialogical >>> space* OF reasons. >>> >>> However are there other possible *spaces* of reason beyond either >>> foundational or dialogical *spaces* of reason. For example >>> *situational >>> spaces* or *creative spaces* OF reason. >>> Using a dramatical metaphor or table metaphor could the dialogical >>> *space of reasons* be a particular type of situation as answer to >>> foundational rule based reason, but the deeper truth is that we are >>> setting the table for multiple fluid "spaces* of reasoning. To >>> justify claims may be deeply implicated WITHIN plural notions of *spaces*. >>> Not either foundational or dialogical *spaces* but expanding to >>> multiple mixtures of various notions of reasons. >>> This in no way questions dialogical spaces of reason [as thinking] >>> but invites deeper exploration to how we orient to these multiple >>> *spaces* [each of which offers justifications.] >>> >>> To describe justification as re- semblance to a board game focuses >>> attention on the RULES of the game. THIS is a norm based image of >>> reasoning justifying moving *points* on the board as preconceived >>> grid. Situational *spaces* of reason are more creative *spaces* of >>> justification that are also historically implicated but more open to >>> novelty. >>> The question of justification is complicated and the relation of the >>> 4 types of justification far more entangled than reason >>> [foundational or dialogical] overcoming the other 3 types assumes. >>> >>> The orientation moving away from foundational spaces of reason to >>> dialogical spaces of reason is a profound transfiguration. It opens >>> the space of reason to creative novelty. It is possible to continue >>> going deeper to explore the profound depth of situations as *spaces* of reason. >>> >>> This months journal is moving across traditions and authorities and >>> experiences. The concept of *situational* spaces is the Pragmatic >>> tradition. Philosophical hermeneutics uses the concept *spaces of play*. >>> Are concepts merely *resources* or do they exhibit other characteristics?. >>> Dewey explored two notions of "have" >>> A possessive "have" and a relational "have" [We have a friend]. We >>> cannot possess *spaces* These *third* spaces have us and we >>> *undergo* experiences WITHIN these spaces. >>> >>> The *space* of reasons also has this quality of being more than > "resources" >>> to use in our practices of justification. Reasons are more than >>> tools of self management and self discipline. They are also *spaces* which have us. >>> >>> Reason is being re-thought and re-worked and will need multiple >>> *settings* to stage this activity. The space of reasons as >>> dialogical is one particular and valid and true space of >>> justification. It is not the only space. >>> Generating notions of *situations* and *spaces of play* and *zones* >>> are speaking this multi-verse being acted out as dramas. >>> >>> The after school setting created a particular situation opening up a >>> particular stage like *space* for generating particular types of >>> justification. It was a *third* space in which the dialogical comes >>> to the foreground. Ground is a fluid concept as is the concept of >>> *concrete* experience. Creative worlds emerge or unfold within these >>> *spaces* but > they >>> are not fundamentally grounded or permanently rule based. These >>> worlds are foregrounded and backgrounded within particular >>> situations [spaces of > play] >>> but they are primarily unknown on their way to be/coming known >>> without > end. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < >>> j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear XMCAers, >>>> >>>> The special issue of Mind, Culture, and Activity on Engaged >>>> Philosophical Inquiry is up and running. >>>> >>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current >>>> >>>> Kim Skinner, author of Acts of thinking: At school but not during >>>> school, has graciously agreed to make herself available for >>>> dialogue about her article on XMCA. >>>> >>>> If you have a moment to access and review the article, perhaps we >>>> can begin discussion early or mid next week? >>>> >>>> Best to all, jen > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > Professor Emeritus, > University of Illinois at Chicago > College of Education M/C 147 > 1040 W. Harrison St. > Chicago, IL 60607 From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Tue Nov 10 16:58:06 2015 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:58:06 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the link, Peter! I will hear it. It is curious how Halloween became a mirror of how difficult is to deal with cultural and other differences. When is a costume celebratory and when is a costume offensive? There is not clear-cut line. One wears a costume because one is borrowing other (living or dead) person?s identity to play a game. Indeed, wearing a costume always involves some sort of pretense. I pretend to be somebody else as a part of an activity that intends to be non-serious and involves and agreed (or collaborative) suspension of the rules regulating social life. Problem is we all take our (cultural, other) identities quite seriously. Yet, if we don't suspend the serious rules we adhere to build our identities at some point in our daily lives there is no chance at all to make a costume party. And if we can?t make a costume party, we may become not only boring but eventually fundamentalist. Therefore, there has to be room to play, to make a costume party, at least in a society that allows for some difference. Question remains, how far can we go in this game so it does not become an aggression instead of a celebration of difference. If we set up rules, as some people made at Yale, we kill the party. If we don?t, we risk an identity conflict. There is no clear way out of this. On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > In case anyone's interested, I recently was a guest on the Atlanta NPR > station, talking about political correctness (the implicit theme of David's > article on Yale). > 2015 WABE (NPR) 90.5FM Atlanta: College PC Culture: It?s Not About > Offending But Respecting > http://news.wabe.org/post/college-pc-culture-it-s-not-about-offending-respecting > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:22 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Halloween, Yale and other complications > > And so it goes with Halloween... It seems that this holiday is becoming a > college issue. Here, a college master (I never liked the term because of > the slavery implications it has), got in trouble because it did something > different than the other university president: she asked the students to > think independently. And the students were, of course, disgusted because of > the request. > > > http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intolerance-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/ > > From ben.devane@gmail.com Tue Nov 10 18:27:21 2015 From: ben.devane@gmail.com (Ben DeVane) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:27:21 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, I have some awareness of the literature on play, and I have to object to your characterization. I would invite correction, but most contemporary literature on the anthropology or sociology does not view play as a complete or even thorough "suspension of the rules regulating social life". In fact, the rules of social life are often thoroughly embedded in play, albeit altered in some way. Gary Alan Fine's work on live-action role play does an excellent job of examining the layers of "nested identities" that are made manifest in such play, and my colleague Thomas Malaby explores the blurred lines between work and play in contemporary games in depth (drawing on Ortner's work on Himalayan mountaineering). Your example of the costume party serves to illustrate the point: All rules are not suspended. At a costume party, one cannot crudely insult the other guests, abuse the furniture, be careless with one's drink, or grope the other guests, without being ejected for misconduct. (I include groping because 'in-character' sexual harassment is an infamous problem in live-action role-playing games). And if one were to show up with a costume crudely mocking a number of participants, one might expect said partygoers to give voice to their displeasure. If one were to show up at a Yale housemaster's Halloween party in costume as an oblivious, overpaid, and unqualified residential hall administrator, I doubt one would be warmly received. In said example, the resulting lecture would likely tackle the topic of civility instead of "thinking for one's self". Ben P.S. No rules were "set up" at Yale. Only educational materials about cultural sensitivity were distributed. On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:58 PM, David Preiss wrote: > Thanks for the link, Peter! I will hear it. > > > > It is curious how Halloween became a mirror of how difficult is to deal > with cultural and other differences. > > When is a costume celebratory and when is a costume offensive? There is not > clear-cut line. > > One wears a costume because one is borrowing other (living or dead) > person?s identity to play a game. Indeed, wearing a costume always involves > some sort of pretense. I pretend to be somebody else as a part of an > activity that intends to be non-serious and involves and agreed (or > collaborative) suspension of the rules regulating social life. > > Problem is we all take our (cultural, other) identities quite seriously. > Yet, if we don't suspend the serious rules we adhere to build our > identities at some point in our daily lives there is no chance at all to > make a costume party. And if we can?t make a costume party, we may become > not only boring but eventually fundamentalist. > > Therefore, there has to be room to play, to make a costume party, at least > in a society that allows for some difference. > > Question remains, how far can we go in this game so it does not become an > aggression instead of a celebration of difference. If we set up rules, as > some people made at Yale, we kill the party. If we don?t, we risk an > identity conflict. There is no clear way out of this. > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > In case anyone's interested, I recently was a guest on the Atlanta NPR > > station, talking about political correctness (the implicit theme of > David's > > article on Yale). > > 2015 WABE (NPR) 90.5FM Atlanta: College PC Culture: It?s Not About > > Offending But Respecting > > > http://news.wabe.org/post/college-pc-culture-it-s-not-about-offending-respecting > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:22 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Halloween, Yale and other complications > > > > And so it goes with Halloween... It seems that this holiday is becoming a > > college issue. Here, a college master (I never liked the term because of > > the slavery implications it has), got in trouble because it did something > > different than the other university president: she asked the students to > > think independently. And the students were, of course, disgusted because > of > > the request. > > > > > > > http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intolerance-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/ > > > > > -- *********************** Ben DeVane, Ph.D Assistant Professor Psychological & Quantitative Foundations University of Iowa *********************** From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Tue Nov 10 21:47:38 2015 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 05:47:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Doing Philosophy with kids In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <1447220856862.29596@iped.uio.no> Hi Kim, and thanks for sharing your work. I enjoyed the read and I share here thoughts and questions that I came upon while reading it. As others have mentioned, I felt that your study positively testifies to the possibility of developing cultures of wonder and dialogue in education. In this regard, your article (at least to me) describes a history of success, of how those ground rules designed to afford such culture were adopted by the group of learners. However, that successful aspect also let me wondering about the tensions and difficulties, and the work that must have been involved in solving those. First, I was wondering to what extent and of which quality difficulties and tensions arose in the process. In an e-mail you mention that there were some difficulties, someone having troubles to not focus on the "right answer". Did you have experiences concerning how these kind of troubles were managed in situ? I was wondering on the kind of work that it took to move from one culture of (e.g.) finding right answers, to another of philosophizing with others. (not sure if this connects to David's questions about the specific domain of philosophy versus the "civil" or "academic" discourse ). Second, and related to the first, I was thinking that, for things to work out, the community of adult/learners studied must have had already some competences/resources for this to happen. So one could wonder which features of the "looking for the right answer" culture, or of their everyday schooling, may have also made it possible the new culture to emerge. You put emphasis on the rules as resource, but I guess there may be some mechanisms, some work, that makes it possible for those ground rules (as they are written or read aloud) to to actually become functional as part of the community (the rules cannot account for the adoption of the rules). Were there aspects of the traditional schooling culture that you could observe at work and working fine for this? These were my thoughts/questions, perhaps already addressed in the conversation. In any case, thanks for sharing your work. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: 09 November 2015 17:54 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Doing Philosophy with kids Thanks for the extra info, Kim. More interesting questions than mine have appeared. I'll be interested to see how the discussion proceeds. mike On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 8:01 PM, Kim Skinner wrote: > Hi Mike, > > By your questions I see I need to provide even more background for this > study, which I did find challenging in the space an article-length > manuscript provides. This study took place in a Texas public school where > remedial after school offerings were plentiful and > often mandatory for certain children but non-remedial opportunities were > scarce and short-lived. The philosophy club was announced to > the grade 4 students at a beginning of the year assembly and touted as an > opportunity for children to talk and think together > as participants in philosophical conversations once a week, after school. > As the only school in this district for grade 4 and 5 students, 210 grade 4 > students attended this school. The philosophy club was open to all students > and the first twenty signed parental permission slips were granted entry. > (A similar offering for grade 3 and 4 students in a nearby school district > admitted 30 students but the office had to time stamp the returned > permission slips and create a waiting list as 62 were returned the first > day.) What we found was both students and parents had considerable interest > in unique after school learning opportunities when admission was open and > without cost. > > Attendance did fluctuate slightly over time, primarily due to a few > children being required by the principal to attend remedial after school > sessions due to poor grades in either reading or math. While all of the > children's responses were not included in this article, as I cited in my > full-length study, > there was differential take-up of learning opportunities by the child > participants. In Informal interviews with several key participants, some > children expressed difficulty not focusing on the "right answer" and one > child admitted he was uncomfortable voicing his ideas and preferred to > write them > in his reflection journals. The children had the opportunity to respond > orally and in writing each session, though I did not include the reflection > journal data in this manuscript. > > Thank you for sharing the P4C example from a preschool classroom. > Children's literature as a stimulus for philosophical conversation often > yields such fabulous results! > Kim > > > > Kim Skinner, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor, Literacy Studies > Louisiana State University > School of Education > 226 Peabody Hall > Baton Rouge, LA 70803 > 225.578.6709 > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+kskinner=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > > Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 12:14 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Doing Philosophy with kids > > Kim et al-- > > > > I have long been interested in the philosophy for children ideas of Lipmann > and Mathews, as well as the potentials of afterschool activities as a space > in which to enrich children's experiences with the stuff being crammed at > them in school, so it was especially interesting to see the two combined. > The collation of ideas from discursive psychology and Vygotskian, as well > as the toolkit of methods seems to be very helpful in understanding what > was transpiring. > > > > But I came away with a few questions. > > > > Re afterschool. A major question I had as I started the paper was how > successful a "doing philosophy" club would be for 9-10 year olds (which I > assume 4th graders to be). In our work we have always focused on the > voluntary nature of participation, so kids have to want to come. Seemed > like quite a challenge! > > > > Am I right that about half the kids dropped out by session 7 or was it that > attendance fluctuated a lot so that you just happened to have few kids on > sessions 7 and 19? With respect to the question of opportunities to learn > that you raise in the introduction, what should we make of this? Only some > kids like doing philosopy? And of those who liked it, > > were opportunities differentially taken up by different kids? It was hard > for me to follow. > > > > I have a question about the use of the term, activity, which is very often > brings me grief when reading Vygotsky and many others because the term > seems to be polysemic within > > texts. For example, > > "The expression doing philosophy signals philosophy as an activity, like > doing work (Wittgenstein) vs : "I considered an event as a set of > activities bound together by a common theme or purpose." > > > > Would it be doing an injustice to your thinking to refer to events as > (collective) actions that are bound together by the common activity of > doing philosophy"? > > > > I was impressed after reading through the paper how importantly it > contrasts with standard education where the most problematic thing a > teacher can do is to assert that s/he does not know the answer to a > question or that there is no right answer. It seems as if embedding a > "doing philosophy" curriculum in schools that can survive in the very > different set of the ground rules of transmissiong, direct-instruction > regimes is to embed it in the language arts/literacy part of the > curriculum, which in different ways by Mathews and Lipman. > > > > Below is one of my favorite examples of philosophy in the preschool using > a book and author for whom so many core philosophical issues appear in > appealing form. > > > > Thanks for the informative article. > > mike > > ----------------- > > The Kindergartners in Vivian Paley?s classroom are discussing the story by > Leo Leoni of Tico, a wingless bird who is cared for by his black-winged > friends. In the story, the wishingbird visits Tico one night and grants him > a wish. Tico wishes for golden wings. When his friends see his golden wings > in the morning, they are angry. They abandon him because he wants to be > better than they are. Tico is upset by his friends? rejection and wants to > gain readmission to the group. He discovers that he can exchange his golden > feathers for black ones by performing good deeds. When at last he has > replaced all the golden feathers with black ones, he is granted readmission > by the flock, whose members comment, ?Now you are just like us? (Leoni, > 1964). > > *Teacher:* I don?t think it?s fair that Tico has to give up his golden > wings. > > *Lisa:* It is fair. See, he was nicer when he didn?t have any wings. They > didn?t like him when he had gold. > > *Wally:* He thinks he?s better if he has golden wings. > > *Eddie:* He is better. > > *Jill:* But he?s not supposed to be better. The wishingbird was wrong to > give him those wings. > > *Deana:* She has to give him his wish. He?s the one who shouldn?t have > asked for golden wings. > > *Wally:* He could put black wings on top of the golden wings and try to > trick them. > > *Deana:* They?d sneak up and see the gold. He should just give every bird > one golden feather and keep one for himself. > > *Teacher:* Why can?t he decide for himself what kind of wings he wants? > > *Wally:* He has to decide to have black wings. > > (Paley, 1981, pp. 25?26) > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Nov 11 07:13:31 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 07:13:31 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] The value of Philosophy: xmca and the GOP Message-ID: ?Kim et al-- One of the big applause lines at the GOP debate last night came from Marco Rubio. Declaring (falsely) that welders earn more than philosophers, he got his applause by declaring "We need more welders and less philosophers" (qouted from memory). Given the high value placed on critical thinking, never mind the ground rules of civil discourse, our admiration for children-as-philosophers, among xmca participants, the applause might give one pause. A reminder of the centrality of values in the organization of educational activities. Hmmmmm mike? -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From smago@uga.edu Wed Nov 11 07:28:58 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:28:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The value of Philosophy: xmca and the GOP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, the "need more welders" line has been around conservative circles for a while now, part of conservative anti-intellectualism. I wrote a response to one a little while back at http://getschooled.blog.myajc.com/2015/02/09/opinion-issue-isnt-welding-vs-chaucer-its-how-to-remove-barriers-to-college/ -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10:14 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] The value of Philosophy: xmca and the GOP ?Kim et al-- One of the big applause lines at the GOP debate last night came from Marco Rubio. Declaring (falsely) that welders earn more than philosophers, he got his applause by declaring "We need more welders and less philosophers" (qouted from memory). Given the high value placed on critical thinking, never mind the ground rules of civil discourse, our admiration for children-as-philosophers, among xmca participants, the applause might give one pause. A reminder of the centrality of values in the organization of educational activities. Hmmmmm mike? -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From smago@uga.edu Wed Nov 11 07:04:21 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:04:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] support your local JoLLE! Message-ID: https://dar.uga.edu/funder/campaigns/community-engaged-literacies-jolleuga/ Dear friends and others, the Journal of Language and Literacy Education is hoping to generate new funds for our Winter Conference through the fundraiser at this link. All green money is welcome, in any amount. Please consider making a donation to help us expand the possibilities for our big even, coming your way January 29-31, 2016, at the Georgia Conference Center. http://jolle.coe.uga.edu/conference/ [http://www.mdhc.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Thank-You-Wordle.jpg] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18402 bytes Desc: image001.jpg Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151111/c7197506/attachment.jpg From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Wed Nov 11 07:51:38 2015 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:51:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Doing Philosophy with kids In-Reply-To: <1447220856862.29596@iped.uio.no> References: , , <1447220856862.29596@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Alfredo, and Kim - like you, Alfredo, Kim's work was a pleasure to read. in part it took me back to the mid-1970's when i used Harry Stottlemeier's Discovery, along with the teacher's guide that Lipman wrote, within the school day to work on problems of philosophy with my class of nine, ten and eleven years old students. (i was teaching in a non-graded elementary school where students were grouped in multi-ages.) in elementary school every discipline taught is by its very nature multi-disciplinary. it's just part and parcel of the fluidity of working with children where the daily can become unusual and the unusual become daily. boundaries are always pressed and reconstituted - it's for this that so many teachers find teaching so intellectually and emotionally exhausting. so the questions about discourse being civil or academic or or or or ... can be more easily answered through the lens of Wittgenstein, with his understanding of language as a kind of game bound within contextual rules - and, for example, the anxiety over 'right answers' is an anxiety reflecting uncertainty regarding the rules. Alfredo, you're so right when you wrote: "Second, and related to the first, I was thinking that, for things to work out, the community of adult/learners studied must have had already some competences/resources for this to happen. So one could wonder which features of the 'looking for the right answer' culture, or of their everyday schooling, may have also made it possible the new culture to emerge." much is going to depend upon the teacher. i've witnessed teachers refuse to teach elementary science that it hands-on experiential based, precisely because the outcomes of the science experiments couldn't always be the "right answer". Kim, you've already noted that your narrative was limited by the constraints of the article length. i've no doubt that a great deal of singular student revelations and innovations occurred that you of necessity had to cut out. phillip From Peg.Griffin@att.net Wed Nov 11 08:20:26 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:20:26 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The value of Philosophy: xmca and the GOP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005d01d11c9c$e08df290$a1a9d7b0$@att.net> Kim, Mike, Peter, Yes! Yes! Yes! My reaction for Rubio was sort of sticking out an intellectual tongue: I wanted to send him a crate of Studs Terkel's book "Working," You've given me impetus to aim for something a tad more useful. Peg PS Thinking about the false dichotomy in addition to non-facts, do you think Rubio knows about the read-alouds for workers in the cigar-making workshops in Cuba? -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10:29 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The value of Philosophy: xmca and the GOP Mike, the "need more welders" line has been around conservative circles for a while now, part of conservative anti-intellectualism. I wrote a response to one a little while back at http://getschooled.blog.myajc.com/2015/02/09/opinion-issue-isnt-welding-vs-chaucer-its-how-to-remove-barriers-to-college/ -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10:14 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] The value of Philosophy: xmca and the GOP ?Kim et al-- One of the big applause lines at the GOP debate last night came from Marco Rubio. Declaring (falsely) that welders earn more than philosophers, he got his applause by declaring "We need more welders and less philosophers" (qouted from memory). Given the high value placed on critical thinking, never mind the ground rules of civil discourse, our admiration for children-as-philosophers, among xmca participants, the applause might give one pause. A reminder of the centrality of values in the organization of educational activities. Hmmmmm mike? -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Nov 11 08:25:35 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:25:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The value of Philosophy: xmca and the GOP In-Reply-To: <005d01d11c9c$e08df290$a1a9d7b0$@att.net> References: <005d01d11c9c$e08df290$a1a9d7b0$@att.net> Message-ID: We need more pegs in the world. :) Huw On 11 November 2015 at 16:20, Peg Griffin wrote: > Kim, Mike, Peter, > Yes! Yes! Yes! > My reaction for Rubio was sort of sticking out an intellectual tongue: I > wanted to send him a crate of Studs Terkel's book "Working," > You've given me impetus to aim for something a tad more useful. > Peg > > PS Thinking about the false dichotomy in addition to non-facts, do you > think Rubio knows about the read-alouds for workers in the cigar-making > workshops in Cuba? > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter > Smagorinsky > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10:29 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The value of Philosophy: xmca and the GOP > > Mike, the "need more welders" line has been around conservative circles > for a while now, part of conservative anti-intellectualism. I wrote a > response to one a little while back at > http://getschooled.blog.myajc.com/2015/02/09/opinion-issue-isnt-welding-vs-chaucer-its-how-to-remove-barriers-to-college/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10:14 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] The value of Philosophy: xmca and the GOP > > ?Kim et al-- One of the big applause lines at the GOP debate last night > came from Marco Rubio. Declaring (falsely) that welders earn more than > philosophers, he got his applause by declaring "We need more welders and > less philosophers" (qouted from memory). > > Given the high value placed on critical thinking, never mind the ground > rules of civil discourse, our admiration for children-as-philosophers, > among xmca participants, the applause might give one pause. A reminder of > the centrality of values in the organization of educational activities. > > Hmmmmm > > mike? > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Nov 11 08:36:30 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:36:30 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Doing Philosophy with kids In-Reply-To: References: , , <1447220856862.29596@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <56436eaf.a36f440a.544ba.ffff9be1@mx.google.com> I would like to also bring to the fore the understanding of *values* within philosophy. C I Lewis in 1926 wrote: The validity of cognition is inseparable test of which it consists in some valuable result of the action which it serves to guide. Knowledge - so the pragmatist conceives - is for the sake of action; and action is directed toward realization of what is valuable. If there should be no valid judgments of value, then action would be pointless or merely capricious, and cognition would be altogether lacking in significance. This is the question of (meaning). Lewis distinguished *terminating* and *non-terminating* judgments meant to differentiate the present meaning from the possible meaning OF linguistic expressions and thus re/assess critically the dichotomies of FACTUAL judgement and VALUE judgement. Lewis thesis is that value judgments operate in the entire area of normativity, INCLUDING, the logical determinations of what is coherence and cogency, as well as definitions of truth. In this spirit. I bring in Kym Maclaren's article which showed prisoners and university students could develop a shared *space* as a place of 1st order *voice* and this action was transformative. The values are explicit. Larry -----Original Message----- From: "White, Phillip" Sent: ?2015-?11-?11 7:52 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Doing Philosophy with kids Alfredo, and Kim - like you, Alfredo, Kim's work was a pleasure to read. in part it took me back to the mid-1970's when i used Harry Stottlemeier's Discovery, along with the teacher's guide that Lipman wrote, within the school day to work on problems of philosophy with my class of nine, ten and eleven years old students. (i was teaching in a non-graded elementary school where students were grouped in multi-ages.) in elementary school every discipline taught is by its very nature multi-disciplinary. it's just part and parcel of the fluidity of working with children where the daily can become unusual and the unusual become daily. boundaries are always pressed and reconstituted - it's for this that so many teachers find teaching so intellectually and emotionally exhausting. so the questions about discourse being civil or academic or or or or ... can be more easily answered through the lens of Wittgenstein, with his understanding of language as a kind of game bound within contextual rules - and, for example, the anxiety over 'right answers' is an anxiety reflecting uncertainty regarding the rules. Alfredo, you're so right when you wrote: "Second, and related to the first, I was thinking that, for things to work out, the community of adult/learners studied must have had already some competences/resources for this to happen. So one could wonder which features of the 'looking for the right answer' culture, or of their everyday schooling, may have also made it possible the new culture to emerge." much is going to depend upon the teacher. i've witnessed teachers refuse to teach elementary science that it hands-on experiential based, precisely because the outcomes of the science experiments couldn't always be the "right answer". Kim, you've already noted that your narrative was limited by the constraints of the article length. i've no doubt that a great deal of singular student revelations and innovations occurred that you of necessity had to cut out. phillip From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Nov 11 09:09:40 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 10:09:40 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The value of Philosophy: xmca and the GOP In-Reply-To: References: <005d01d11c9c$e08df290$a1a9d7b0$@att.net> Message-ID: Yes, false dichotomy is troubling. I support the part of this argument that is suggesting that welders' labor (and the welders' themselves) should be valued just as highly as philosopher's labor. Notwithstanding the local (i.e. U.S.) politics, seems like there is a good old Marxist argument buried in there about the trouble with valuing mental over manual labor, no? -greg On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 9:25 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > We need more pegs in the world. :) > > Huw > > On 11 November 2015 at 16:20, Peg Griffin wrote: > > > Kim, Mike, Peter, > > Yes! Yes! Yes! > > My reaction for Rubio was sort of sticking out an intellectual tongue: I > > wanted to send him a crate of Studs Terkel's book "Working," > > You've given me impetus to aim for something a tad more useful. > > Peg > > > > PS Thinking about the false dichotomy in addition to non-facts, do you > > think Rubio knows about the read-alouds for workers in the cigar-making > > workshops in Cuba? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter > > Smagorinsky > > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10:29 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The value of Philosophy: xmca and the GOP > > > > Mike, the "need more welders" line has been around conservative circles > > for a while now, part of conservative anti-intellectualism. I wrote a > > response to one a little while back at > > > http://getschooled.blog.myajc.com/2015/02/09/opinion-issue-isnt-welding-vs-chaucer-its-how-to-remove-barriers-to-college/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10:14 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] The value of Philosophy: xmca and the GOP > > > > ?Kim et al-- One of the big applause lines at the GOP debate last night > > came from Marco Rubio. Declaring (falsely) that welders earn more than > > philosophers, he got his applause by declaring "We need more welders and > > less philosophers" (qouted from memory). > > > > Given the high value placed on critical thinking, never mind the ground > > rules of civil discourse, our admiration for children-as-philosophers, > > among xmca participants, the applause might give one pause. A reminder of > > the centrality of values in the organization of educational activities. > > > > Hmmmmm > > > > mike? > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From kskinner@lsu.edu Wed Nov 11 09:44:22 2015 From: kskinner@lsu.edu (Kim Skinner) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:44:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Doing Philosophy with kids In-Reply-To: <56436eaf.a36f440a.544ba.ffff9be1@mx.google.com> References: , , <1447220856862.29596@iped.uio.no> , <56436eaf.a36f440a.544ba.ffff9be1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Mike, Alfredo, Phillip, and Larry, As Mike noted, Rubio's quip "We need more welders and less philosophers" has generated much conversation about what is and isn't valued by our society. The erupting discussion reminds me of an annual survey of literacy leaders conducted by Jack Cassidy, a former ILA president, to gauge "what's hot and what's not" in reading education each year. He adds an additional strand to this survey titled "What should be hot." I argue that teaching philosophy and learning to philosophize "should be hot" but is not. (Maybe "children-as-welders" clubs will start popping up around the country now!) It was so nice to hear from Phillip who conducted P4C sessions in an elementary school when Philosophy for Children was first introduced into the US education landscape in the '70s. Phillip, thank you for your comments; your insider's understanding of my world was so welcome. For the article, I focused on an aspect of the community's transformation that the ground rules, as tools, enabled...tools as a critical component but only one ingredient of the mixture. As is always true in education, it's the teacher, it's the teacher, it's the teacher. Knowledge, resources, expertise,...yes. But it's the teacher's passion for fostering critical, creative, and caring thinking that determines the extent of the results. Kim Kim Skinner, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Literacy Studies Louisiana State University School of Education 226 Peabody Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803 225.578.6709 ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+kskinner=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Lplarry Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10:36 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Doing Philosophy with kids I would like to also bring to the fore the understanding of *values* within philosophy. C I Lewis in 1926 wrote: The validity of cognition is inseparable test of which it consists in some valuable result of the action which it serves to guide. Knowledge - so the pragmatist conceives - is for the sake of action; and action is directed toward realization of what is valuable. If there should be no valid judgments of value, then action would be pointless or merely capricious, and cognition would be altogether lacking in significance. This is the question of (meaning). Lewis distinguished *terminating* and *non-terminating* judgments meant to differentiate the present meaning from the possible meaning OF linguistic expressions and thus re/assess critically the dichotomies of FACTUAL judgement and VALUE judgement. Lewis thesis is that value judgments operate in the entire area of normativity, INCLUDING, the logical determinations of what is coherence and cogency, as well as definitions of truth. In this spirit. I bring in Kym Maclaren's article which showed prisoners and university students could develop a shared *space* as a place of 1st order *voice* and this action was transformative. The values are explicit. Larry -----Original Message----- From: "White, Phillip" Sent: ?2015-?11-?11 7:52 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Doing Philosophy with kids Alfredo, and Kim - like you, Alfredo, Kim's work was a pleasure to read. in part it took me back to the mid-1970's when i used Harry Stottlemeier's Discovery, along with the teacher's guide that Lipman wrote, within the school day to work on problems of philosophy with my class of nine, ten and eleven years old students. (i was teaching in a non-graded elementary school where students were grouped in multi-ages.) in elementary school every discipline taught is by its very nature multi-disciplinary. it's just part and parcel of the fluidity of working with children where the daily can become unusual and the unusual become daily. boundaries are always pressed and reconstituted - it's for this that so many teachers find teaching so intellectually and emotionally exhausting. so the questions about discourse being civil or academic or or or or ... can be more easily answered through the lens of Wittgenstein, with his understanding of language as a kind of game bound within contextual rules - and, for example, the anxiety over 'right answers' is an anxiety reflecting uncertainty regarding the rules. Alfredo, you're so right when you wrote: "Second, and related to the first, I was thinking that, for things to work out, the community of adult/learners studied must have had already some competences/resources for this to happen. So one could wonder which features of the 'looking for the right answer' culture, or of their everyday schooling, may have also made it possible the new culture to emerge." much is going to depend upon the teacher. i've witnessed teachers refuse to teach elementary science that it hands-on experiential based, precisely because the outcomes of the science experiments couldn't always be the "right answer". Kim, you've already noted that your narrative was limited by the constraints of the article length. i've no doubt that a great deal of singular student revelations and innovations occurred that you of necessity had to cut out. phillip From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Nov 11 10:43:25 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (greg.a.thompson@gmail.com) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:43:25 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63E8B566-663F-454A-A285-C4C1F6C86149@gmail.com> Stanton wortham has done interesting work on role playing in the classroom and how the identities of the roles bleed into the identities of the role players. -Greg Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 10, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Ben DeVane wrote: > > David, > > I have some awareness of the literature on play, and I have to object to > your characterization. I would invite correction, but most contemporary > literature on the anthropology or sociology does not view play as a > complete or even thorough "suspension of the rules regulating social life". > In fact, the rules of social life are often thoroughly embedded in play, > albeit altered in some way. Gary Alan Fine's work on live-action role play > does an excellent job of examining the layers of "nested identities" that > are made manifest in such play, and my colleague Thomas Malaby explores the > blurred lines between work and play in contemporary games in depth (drawing > on Ortner's work on Himalayan mountaineering). > > Your example of the costume party serves to illustrate the point: All rules > are not suspended. At a costume party, one cannot crudely insult the other > guests, abuse the furniture, be careless with one's drink, or grope the > other guests, without being ejected for misconduct. (I include groping > because 'in-character' sexual harassment is an infamous problem in > live-action role-playing games). And if one were to show up with a costume > crudely mocking a number of participants, one might expect said partygoers > to give voice to their displeasure. > > If one were to show up at a Yale housemaster's Halloween party in costume > as an oblivious, overpaid, and unqualified residential hall administrator, > I doubt one would be warmly received. In said example, the resulting > lecture would likely tackle the topic of civility instead of "thinking for > one's self". > > Ben > > P.S. No rules were "set up" at Yale. Only educational materials about > cultural sensitivity were distributed. > >> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:58 PM, David Preiss wrote: >> >> Thanks for the link, Peter! I will hear it. >> >> >> >> It is curious how Halloween became a mirror of how difficult is to deal >> with cultural and other differences. >> >> When is a costume celebratory and when is a costume offensive? There is not >> clear-cut line. >> >> One wears a costume because one is borrowing other (living or dead) >> person?s identity to play a game. Indeed, wearing a costume always involves >> some sort of pretense. I pretend to be somebody else as a part of an >> activity that intends to be non-serious and involves and agreed (or >> collaborative) suspension of the rules regulating social life. >> >> Problem is we all take our (cultural, other) identities quite seriously. >> Yet, if we don't suspend the serious rules we adhere to build our >> identities at some point in our daily lives there is no chance at all to >> make a costume party. And if we can?t make a costume party, we may become >> not only boring but eventually fundamentalist. >> >> Therefore, there has to be room to play, to make a costume party, at least >> in a society that allows for some difference. >> >> Question remains, how far can we go in this game so it does not become an >> aggression instead of a celebration of difference. If we set up rules, as >> some people made at Yale, we kill the party. If we don?t, we risk an >> identity conflict. There is no clear way out of this. >> >> >>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: >>> >>> In case anyone's interested, I recently was a guest on the Atlanta NPR >>> station, talking about political correctness (the implicit theme of >> David's >>> article on Yale). >>> 2015 WABE (NPR) 90.5FM Atlanta: College PC Culture: It?s Not About >>> Offending But Respecting >> http://news.wabe.org/post/college-pc-culture-it-s-not-about-offending-respecting >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>> xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:22 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Halloween, Yale and other complications >>> >>> And so it goes with Halloween... It seems that this holiday is becoming a >>> college issue. Here, a college master (I never liked the term because of >>> the slavery implications it has), got in trouble because it did something >>> different than the other university president: she asked the students to >>> think independently. And the students were, of course, disgusted because >> of >>> the request. >> http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intolerance-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/ > > > > -- > > *********************** > Ben DeVane, Ph.D > Assistant Professor > Psychological & Quantitative Foundations > University of Iowa > *********************** From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Wed Nov 11 11:33:17 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:33:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications In-Reply-To: <63E8B566-663F-454A-A285-C4C1F6C86149@gmail.com> References: <63E8B566-663F-454A-A285-C4C1F6C86149@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311038501B8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> I have just been reading a lovely book by Barbara Ehrenreich - 'Dancing in the streets: a history of collective joy' which deals with the familiar arguments about the role of carnival as an opportunity to play with the rules and constraints of everyday life - a culturally important function for playfulness. Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sent: 11 November 2015 18:43 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications Stanton wortham has done interesting work on role playing in the classroom and how the identities of the roles bleed into the identities of the role players. -Greg Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 10, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Ben DeVane wrote: > > David, > > I have some awareness of the literature on play, and I have to object > to your characterization. I would invite correction, but most > contemporary literature on the anthropology or sociology does not view > play as a complete or even thorough "suspension of the rules regulating social life". > In fact, the rules of social life are often thoroughly embedded in > play, albeit altered in some way. Gary Alan Fine's work on live-action > role play does an excellent job of examining the layers of "nested > identities" that are made manifest in such play, and my colleague > Thomas Malaby explores the blurred lines between work and play in > contemporary games in depth (drawing on Ortner's work on Himalayan mountaineering). > > Your example of the costume party serves to illustrate the point: All > rules are not suspended. At a costume party, one cannot crudely insult > the other guests, abuse the furniture, be careless with one's drink, > or grope the other guests, without being ejected for misconduct. (I > include groping because 'in-character' sexual harassment is an > infamous problem in live-action role-playing games). And if one were > to show up with a costume crudely mocking a number of participants, > one might expect said partygoers to give voice to their displeasure. > > If one were to show up at a Yale housemaster's Halloween party in > costume as an oblivious, overpaid, and unqualified residential hall > administrator, I doubt one would be warmly received. In said example, > the resulting lecture would likely tackle the topic of civility > instead of "thinking for one's self". > > Ben > > P.S. No rules were "set up" at Yale. Only educational materials about > cultural sensitivity were distributed. > >> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:58 PM, David Preiss wrote: >> >> Thanks for the link, Peter! I will hear it. >> >> >> >> It is curious how Halloween became a mirror of how difficult is to >> deal with cultural and other differences. >> >> When is a costume celebratory and when is a costume offensive? There >> is not clear-cut line. >> >> One wears a costume because one is borrowing other (living or dead) >> person?s identity to play a game. Indeed, wearing a costume always >> involves some sort of pretense. I pretend to be somebody else as a >> part of an activity that intends to be non-serious and involves and >> agreed (or >> collaborative) suspension of the rules regulating social life. >> >> Problem is we all take our (cultural, other) identities quite seriously. >> Yet, if we don't suspend the serious rules we adhere to build our >> identities at some point in our daily lives there is no chance at all >> to make a costume party. And if we can?t make a costume party, we may >> become not only boring but eventually fundamentalist. >> >> Therefore, there has to be room to play, to make a costume party, at >> least in a society that allows for some difference. >> >> Question remains, how far can we go in this game so it does not >> become an aggression instead of a celebration of difference. If we >> set up rules, as some people made at Yale, we kill the party. If we >> don?t, we risk an identity conflict. There is no clear way out of this. >> >> >>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: >>> >>> In case anyone's interested, I recently was a guest on the Atlanta >>> NPR station, talking about political correctness (the implicit theme >>> of >> David's >>> article on Yale). >>> 2015 WABE (NPR) 90.5FM Atlanta: College PC Culture: It?s Not About >>> Offending But Respecting >> http://news.wabe.org/post/college-pc-culture-it-s-not-about-offending >> -respecting >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>> xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David >>> xmca-l-bounces+Preiss >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:22 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Halloween, Yale and other complications >>> >>> And so it goes with Halloween... It seems that this holiday is >>> becoming a college issue. Here, a college master (I never liked the >>> term because of the slavery implications it has), got in trouble >>> because it did something different than the other university >>> president: she asked the students to think independently. And the >>> students were, of course, disgusted because >> of >>> the request. >> http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intoleran >> ce-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/ > > > > -- > > *********************** > Ben DeVane, Ph.D > Assistant Professor > Psychological & Quantitative Foundations University of Iowa > *********************** ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From glassman.13@osu.edu Wed Nov 11 11:42:23 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:42:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311038501B8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <63E8B566-663F-454A-A285-C4C1F6C86149@gmail.com> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311038501B8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9C18075@CIO-TNC-D1MBX11.osuad.osu.edu> Hi Rod I have been rethinking the idea of Carnival in the context of swarm intelligence and the types of turns it can take, like how celebrations after sports events can turn very dark very quickly. It is interesting that carnival in the United States often has very dark connotations. There was recently an exploration by American Horror Story into this dark side of carnival Almost always it is portrayed in very dark color. The carnival barker is not a very good character. Clowns really are scary. Has anybody explore the two sides of carnival? Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rod Parker-Rees Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 2:33 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications I have just been reading a lovely book by Barbara Ehrenreich - 'Dancing in the streets: a history of collective joy' which deals with the familiar arguments about the role of carnival as an opportunity to play with the rules and constraints of everyday life - a culturally important function for playfulness. Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sent: 11 November 2015 18:43 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications Stanton wortham has done interesting work on role playing in the classroom and how the identities of the roles bleed into the identities of the role players. -Greg Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 10, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Ben DeVane wrote: > > David, > > I have some awareness of the literature on play, and I have to object > to your characterization. I would invite correction, but most > contemporary literature on the anthropology or sociology does not view > play as a complete or even thorough "suspension of the rules regulating social life". > In fact, the rules of social life are often thoroughly embedded in > play, albeit altered in some way. Gary Alan Fine's work on live-action > role play does an excellent job of examining the layers of "nested > identities" that are made manifest in such play, and my colleague > Thomas Malaby explores the blurred lines between work and play in > contemporary games in depth (drawing on Ortner's work on Himalayan mountaineering). > > Your example of the costume party serves to illustrate the point: All > rules are not suspended. At a costume party, one cannot crudely insult > the other guests, abuse the furniture, be careless with one's drink, > or grope the other guests, without being ejected for misconduct. (I > include groping because 'in-character' sexual harassment is an > infamous problem in live-action role-playing games). And if one were > to show up with a costume crudely mocking a number of participants, > one might expect said partygoers to give voice to their displeasure. > > If one were to show up at a Yale housemaster's Halloween party in > costume as an oblivious, overpaid, and unqualified residential hall > administrator, I doubt one would be warmly received. In said example, > the resulting lecture would likely tackle the topic of civility > instead of "thinking for one's self". > > Ben > > P.S. No rules were "set up" at Yale. Only educational materials about > cultural sensitivity were distributed. > >> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:58 PM, David Preiss wrote: >> >> Thanks for the link, Peter! I will hear it. >> >> >> >> It is curious how Halloween became a mirror of how difficult is to >> deal with cultural and other differences. >> >> When is a costume celebratory and when is a costume offensive? There >> is not clear-cut line. >> >> One wears a costume because one is borrowing other (living or dead) >> person?s identity to play a game. Indeed, wearing a costume always >> involves some sort of pretense. I pretend to be somebody else as a >> part of an activity that intends to be non-serious and involves and >> agreed (or >> collaborative) suspension of the rules regulating social life. >> >> Problem is we all take our (cultural, other) identities quite seriously. >> Yet, if we don't suspend the serious rules we adhere to build our >> identities at some point in our daily lives there is no chance at all >> to make a costume party. And if we can?t make a costume party, we may >> become not only boring but eventually fundamentalist. >> >> Therefore, there has to be room to play, to make a costume party, at >> least in a society that allows for some difference. >> >> Question remains, how far can we go in this game so it does not >> become an aggression instead of a celebration of difference. If we >> set up rules, as some people made at Yale, we kill the party. If we >> don?t, we risk an identity conflict. There is no clear way out of this. >> >> >>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: >>> >>> In case anyone's interested, I recently was a guest on the Atlanta >>> NPR station, talking about political correctness (the implicit theme >>> of >> David's >>> article on Yale). >>> 2015 WABE (NPR) 90.5FM Atlanta: College PC Culture: It?s Not About >>> Offending But Respecting >> http://news.wabe.org/post/college-pc-culture-it-s-not-about-offending >> -respecting >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>> xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David >>> xmca-l-bounces+Preiss >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:22 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Halloween, Yale and other complications >>> >>> And so it goes with Halloween... It seems that this holiday is >>> becoming a college issue. Here, a college master (I never liked the >>> term because of the slavery implications it has), got in trouble >>> because it did something different than the other university >>> president: she asked the students to think independently. And the >>> students were, of course, disgusted because >> of >>> the request. >> http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intoleran >> ce-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/ > > > > -- > > *********************** > Ben DeVane, Ph.D > Assistant Professor > Psychological & Quantitative Foundations University of Iowa > *********************** ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From smago@uga.edu Wed Nov 11 12:40:12 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:40:12 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311038501B8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <63E8B566-663F-454A-A285-C4C1F6C86149@gmail.com> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311038501B8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: While searching to see if Ehrenreich drew on Bakhtin for her understanding of Carnival (apparently not), I came across the following, which might interest those who want to explore this topic: https://books.google.com/books?id=8HmOAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=Barbara+Ehrenreich+-+%27Dancing+in+the+streets:+a+history+of+collective+joy%27+carnival+bakhtin&source=bl&ots=uJvA6riXI6&sig=M2jNF_zso8Pl0GjL1lz-9HemVkI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDUQ6AEwA2oVChMIwZry75yJyQIVzJUeCh3CNAEC#v=onepage&q=Barbara%20Ehrenreich%20-%20'Dancing%20in%20the%20streets%3A%20a%20history%20of%20collective%20joy'%20carnival%20bakhtin&f=false -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rod Parker-Rees Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 2:33 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications I have just been reading a lovely book by Barbara Ehrenreich - 'Dancing in the streets: a history of collective joy' which deals with the familiar arguments about the role of carnival as an opportunity to play with the rules and constraints of everyday life - a culturally important function for playfulness. Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sent: 11 November 2015 18:43 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications Stanton wortham has done interesting work on role playing in the classroom and how the identities of the roles bleed into the identities of the role players. -Greg Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 10, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Ben DeVane wrote: > > David, > > I have some awareness of the literature on play, and I have to object > to your characterization. I would invite correction, but most > contemporary literature on the anthropology or sociology does not view > play as a complete or even thorough "suspension of the rules regulating social life". > In fact, the rules of social life are often thoroughly embedded in > play, albeit altered in some way. Gary Alan Fine's work on live-action > role play does an excellent job of examining the layers of "nested > identities" that are made manifest in such play, and my colleague > Thomas Malaby explores the blurred lines between work and play in > contemporary games in depth (drawing on Ortner's work on Himalayan mountaineering). > > Your example of the costume party serves to illustrate the point: All > rules are not suspended. At a costume party, one cannot crudely insult > the other guests, abuse the furniture, be careless with one's drink, > or grope the other guests, without being ejected for misconduct. (I > include groping because 'in-character' sexual harassment is an > infamous problem in live-action role-playing games). And if one were > to show up with a costume crudely mocking a number of participants, > one might expect said partygoers to give voice to their displeasure. > > If one were to show up at a Yale housemaster's Halloween party in > costume as an oblivious, overpaid, and unqualified residential hall > administrator, I doubt one would be warmly received. In said example, > the resulting lecture would likely tackle the topic of civility > instead of "thinking for one's self". > > Ben > > P.S. No rules were "set up" at Yale. Only educational materials about > cultural sensitivity were distributed. > >> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:58 PM, David Preiss wrote: >> >> Thanks for the link, Peter! I will hear it. >> >> >> >> It is curious how Halloween became a mirror of how difficult is to >> deal with cultural and other differences. >> >> When is a costume celebratory and when is a costume offensive? There >> is not clear-cut line. >> >> One wears a costume because one is borrowing other (living or dead) >> person?s identity to play a game. Indeed, wearing a costume always >> involves some sort of pretense. I pretend to be somebody else as a >> part of an activity that intends to be non-serious and involves and >> agreed (or >> collaborative) suspension of the rules regulating social life. >> >> Problem is we all take our (cultural, other) identities quite seriously. >> Yet, if we don't suspend the serious rules we adhere to build our >> identities at some point in our daily lives there is no chance at all >> to make a costume party. And if we can?t make a costume party, we may >> become not only boring but eventually fundamentalist. >> >> Therefore, there has to be room to play, to make a costume party, at >> least in a society that allows for some difference. >> >> Question remains, how far can we go in this game so it does not >> become an aggression instead of a celebration of difference. If we >> set up rules, as some people made at Yale, we kill the party. If we >> don?t, we risk an identity conflict. There is no clear way out of this. >> >> >>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: >>> >>> In case anyone's interested, I recently was a guest on the Atlanta >>> NPR station, talking about political correctness (the implicit theme >>> of >> David's >>> article on Yale). >>> 2015 WABE (NPR) 90.5FM Atlanta: College PC Culture: It?s Not About >>> Offending But Respecting >> http://news.wabe.org/post/college-pc-culture-it-s-not-about-offending >> -respecting >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>> xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David >>> xmca-l-bounces+Preiss >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:22 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Halloween, Yale and other complications >>> >>> And so it goes with Halloween... It seems that this holiday is >>> becoming a college issue. Here, a college master (I never liked the >>> term because of the slavery implications it has), got in trouble >>> because it did something different than the other university >>> president: she asked the students to think independently. And the >>> students were, of course, disgusted because >> of >>> the request. >> http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intoleran >> ce-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/ > > > > -- > > *********************** > Ben DeVane, Ph.D > Assistant Professor > Psychological & Quantitative Foundations University of Iowa > *********************** ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Nov 11 14:45:07 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:45:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] [Lchc-l] Portfolio website Message-ID: Hi there, Sorry for double posting, but I learned about this website which may prove doubly interesting! It's a portfolio website but sort of a hybrid for filling that gap between graduation and finding employment, so there's a recruiting angle too. Unfortunately, most of the affiliated as employers seem to be largely corporate. I hope that changes so there are postings for non-profits or other non-corporate career pathways. Still, I think it's an interesting development for students as a vehicle to encapsulate one's school projects in a little more meaningful way than LinkedIn, for example. The company was started by a UCSD Alumnus, btw. Please peruse: https://portfolium.com/ Kind regards, Annalisa From joe.glick@gmail.com Wed Nov 11 14:51:10 2015 From: joe.glick@gmail.com (JAG) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:51:10 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The value of Philosophy: xmca and the GOP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: RE: Rubio Children as welders? This has already been debunked (NYT 11/11) On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 10:13 AM, mike cole wrote: > ?Kim et al-- One of the big applause lines at the GOP debate last night > came from Marco Rubio. Declaring (falsely) that welders earn more than > philosophers, he got his applause by declaring "We need more welders and > less philosophers" (qouted from memory). > > Given the high value placed on critical thinking, never mind the ground > rules of civil discourse, our admiration > for children-as-philosophers, among xmca participants, the applause might > give one pause. A reminder of the centrality of values in the organization > of educational activities. > > Hmmmmm > > mike? > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Wed Nov 11 19:38:06 2015 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 00:38:06 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications In-Reply-To: References: <63E8B566-663F-454A-A285-C4C1F6C86149@gmail.com> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311038501B8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thanks to all for following up on my random thoughts. I agree with you, Ben. Maybe the notion of carnival/party was closer to what I thought than that of play. And I agree that rules are never entirely suspended. That's what makes the issue interesting. How far can you go when you party without ruining the party? That said, the whole sequence of events at Yale is telling and it says more about other on-going issues (being a minority in a mainstream elitist institution, the role of mentors in undergraduate education, and the tensions between freedom of speech and political correctness) than about how to dress on halloween. David On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > While searching to see if Ehrenreich drew on Bakhtin for her understanding > of Carnival (apparently not), I came across the following, which might > interest those who want to explore this topic: > > https://books.google.com/books?id=8HmOAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=Barbara+Ehrenreich+-+%27Dancing+in+the+streets:+a+history+of+collective+joy%27+carnival+bakhtin&source=bl&ots=uJvA6riXI6&sig=M2jNF_zso8Pl0GjL1lz-9HemVkI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDUQ6AEwA2oVChMIwZry75yJyQIVzJUeCh3CNAEC#v=onepage&q=Barbara%20Ehrenreich%20-%20'Dancing%20in%20the%20streets%3A%20a%20history%20of%20collective%20joy'%20carnival%20bakhtin&f=false > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rod > Parker-Rees > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 2:33 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications > > I have just been reading a lovely book by Barbara Ehrenreich - 'Dancing in > the streets: a history of collective joy' which deals with the familiar > arguments about the role of carnival as an opportunity to play with the > rules and constraints of everyday life - a culturally important function > for playfulness. > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] > On Behalf Of greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > Sent: 11 November 2015 18:43 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications > > Stanton wortham has done interesting work on role playing in the classroom > and how the identities of the roles bleed into the identities of the role > players. > -Greg > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Nov 10, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Ben DeVane wrote: > > > > David, > > > > I have some awareness of the literature on play, and I have to object > > to your characterization. I would invite correction, but most > > contemporary literature on the anthropology or sociology does not view > > play as a complete or even thorough "suspension of the rules regulating > social life". > > In fact, the rules of social life are often thoroughly embedded in > > play, albeit altered in some way. Gary Alan Fine's work on live-action > > role play does an excellent job of examining the layers of "nested > > identities" that are made manifest in such play, and my colleague > > Thomas Malaby explores the blurred lines between work and play in > > contemporary games in depth (drawing on Ortner's work on Himalayan > mountaineering). > > > > Your example of the costume party serves to illustrate the point: All > > rules are not suspended. At a costume party, one cannot crudely insult > > the other guests, abuse the furniture, be careless with one's drink, > > or grope the other guests, without being ejected for misconduct. (I > > include groping because 'in-character' sexual harassment is an > > infamous problem in live-action role-playing games). And if one were > > to show up with a costume crudely mocking a number of participants, > > one might expect said partygoers to give voice to their displeasure. > > > > If one were to show up at a Yale housemaster's Halloween party in > > costume as an oblivious, overpaid, and unqualified residential hall > > administrator, I doubt one would be warmly received. In said example, > > the resulting lecture would likely tackle the topic of civility > > instead of "thinking for one's self". > > > > Ben > > > > P.S. No rules were "set up" at Yale. Only educational materials about > > cultural sensitivity were distributed. > > > >> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:58 PM, David Preiss > wrote: > >> > >> Thanks for the link, Peter! I will hear it. > >> > >> > >> > >> It is curious how Halloween became a mirror of how difficult is to > >> deal with cultural and other differences. > >> > >> When is a costume celebratory and when is a costume offensive? There > >> is not clear-cut line. > >> > >> One wears a costume because one is borrowing other (living or dead) > >> person?s identity to play a game. Indeed, wearing a costume always > >> involves some sort of pretense. I pretend to be somebody else as a > >> part of an activity that intends to be non-serious and involves and > >> agreed (or > >> collaborative) suspension of the rules regulating social life. > >> > >> Problem is we all take our (cultural, other) identities quite seriously. > >> Yet, if we don't suspend the serious rules we adhere to build our > >> identities at some point in our daily lives there is no chance at all > >> to make a costume party. And if we can?t make a costume party, we may > >> become not only boring but eventually fundamentalist. > >> > >> Therefore, there has to be room to play, to make a costume party, at > >> least in a society that allows for some difference. > >> > >> Question remains, how far can we go in this game so it does not > >> become an aggression instead of a celebration of difference. If we > >> set up rules, as some people made at Yale, we kill the party. If we > >> don?t, we risk an identity conflict. There is no clear way out of this. > >> > >> > >>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Peter Smagorinsky > wrote: > >>> > >>> In case anyone's interested, I recently was a guest on the Atlanta > >>> NPR station, talking about political correctness (the implicit theme > >>> of > >> David's > >>> article on Yale). > >>> 2015 WABE (NPR) 90.5FM Atlanta: College PC Culture: It?s Not About > >>> Offending But Respecting > >> http://news.wabe.org/post/college-pc-culture-it-s-not-about-offending > >> -respecting > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>> xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David > >>> xmca-l-bounces+Preiss > >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:22 PM > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Halloween, Yale and other complications > >>> > >>> And so it goes with Halloween... It seems that this holiday is > >>> becoming a college issue. Here, a college master (I never liked the > >>> term because of the slavery implications it has), got in trouble > >>> because it did something different than the other university > >>> president: she asked the students to think independently. And the > >>> students were, of course, disgusted because > >> of > >>> the request. > >> http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intoleran > >> ce-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/ > > > > > > > > -- > > > > *********************** > > Ben DeVane, Ph.D > > Assistant Professor > > Psychological & Quantitative Foundations University of Iowa > > *********************** > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > > From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Wed Nov 11 19:42:59 2015 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 00:42:59 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The value of Philosophy: xmca and the GOP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: During the last three presidential elections (including this one), the GOP debates have became a curious mixture of reality show, bad comedy and pseudo-surrealism. It would be fun to watch if those guys on tv were not running to control one of the biggest nuclear arsenals on earth. On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 7:51 PM, JAG wrote: > RE: Rubio > > Children as welders? > > This has already been debunked (NYT 11/11) > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 10:13 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > ?Kim et al-- One of the big applause lines at the GOP debate last night > > came from Marco Rubio. Declaring (falsely) that welders earn more than > > philosophers, he got his applause by declaring "We need more welders and > > less philosophers" (qouted from memory). > > > > Given the high value placed on critical thinking, never mind the ground > > rules of civil discourse, our admiration > > for children-as-philosophers, among xmca participants, the applause might > > give one pause. A reminder of the centrality of values in the > organization > > of educational activities. > > > > Hmmmmm > > > > mike? > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > From vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp Wed Nov 11 20:18:13 2015 From: vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp (Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:18:13 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9C18075@CIO-TNC-D1MBX11.osuad.osu.edu> References: <63E8B566-663F-454A-A285-C4C1F6C86149@gmail.com> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311038501B8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9C18075@CIO-TNC-D1MBX11.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <56441305.4080002@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> Carnival is also associated with Mardi Gras and that in turn with Dionysian (as opposed to Apollonian) festival - which is exuberant, cathartic, and random - could be Serendipitous or could be fatal. Weaving together the literature and culture with primary and secondary education is a discourse project which requires a framework. Mobs riots swarms, Maharishi effect. All these things cannot be plotted on a single line. Dropping in with a comment on the fly, Vandy Wilkinson n 2015/11/12 4:42, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hi Rod > > I have been rethinking the idea of Carnival in the context of swarm intelligence and the types of turns it can take, like how celebrations after sports events can turn very dark very quickly. It is interesting that carnival in the United States often has very dark connotations. There was recently an exploration by American Horror Story into this dark side of carnival Almost always it is portrayed in very dark color. The carnival barker is not a very good character. Clowns really are scary. Has anybody explore the two sides of carnival? > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rod Parker-Rees > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 2:33 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications > > I have just been reading a lovely book by Barbara Ehrenreich - 'Dancing in the streets: a history of collective joy' which deals with the familiar arguments about the role of carnival as an opportunity to play with the rules and constraints of everyday life - a culturally important function for playfulness. > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > Sent: 11 November 2015 18:43 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications > > Stanton wortham has done interesting work on role playing in the classroom and how the identities of the roles bleed into the identities of the role players. > -Greg > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 10, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Ben DeVane wrote: >> >> David, >> >> I have some awareness of the literature on play, and I have to object >> to your characterization. I would invite correction, but most >> contemporary literature on the anthropology or sociology does not view >> play as a complete or even thorough "suspension of the rules regulating social life". >> In fact, the rules of social life are often thoroughly embedded in >> play, albeit altered in some way. Gary Alan Fine's work on live-action >> role play does an excellent job of examining the layers of "nested >> identities" that are made manifest in such play, and my colleague >> Thomas Malaby explores the blurred lines between work and play in >> contemporary games in depth (drawing on Ortner's work on Himalayan mountaineering). >> >> Your example of the costume party serves to illustrate the point: All >> rules are not suspended. At a costume party, one cannot crudely insult >> the other guests, abuse the furniture, be careless with one's drink, >> or grope the other guests, without being ejected for misconduct. (I >> include groping because 'in-character' sexual harassment is an >> infamous problem in live-action role-playing games). And if one were >> to show up with a costume crudely mocking a number of participants, >> one might expect said partygoers to give voice to their displeasure. >> >> If one were to show up at a Yale housemaster's Halloween party in >> costume as an oblivious, overpaid, and unqualified residential hall >> administrator, I doubt one would be warmly received. In said example, >> the resulting lecture would likely tackle the topic of civility >> instead of "thinking for one's self". >> >> Ben >> >> P.S. No rules were "set up" at Yale. Only educational materials about >> cultural sensitivity were distributed. >> >>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:58 PM, David Preiss wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for the link, Peter! I will hear it. >>> >>> >>> >>> It is curious how Halloween became a mirror of how difficult is to >>> deal with cultural and other differences. >>> >>> When is a costume celebratory and when is a costume offensive? There >>> is not clear-cut line. >>> >>> One wears a costume because one is borrowing other (living or dead) >>> person?s identity to play a game. Indeed, wearing a costume always >>> involves some sort of pretense. I pretend to be somebody else as a >>> part of an activity that intends to be non-serious and involves and >>> agreed (or >>> collaborative) suspension of the rules regulating social life. >>> >>> Problem is we all take our (cultural, other) identities quite seriously. >>> Yet, if we don't suspend the serious rules we adhere to build our >>> identities at some point in our daily lives there is no chance at all >>> to make a costume party. And if we can?t make a costume party, we may >>> become not only boring but eventually fundamentalist. >>> >>> Therefore, there has to be room to play, to make a costume party, at >>> least in a society that allows for some difference. >>> >>> Question remains, how far can we go in this game so it does not >>> become an aggression instead of a celebration of difference. If we >>> set up rules, as some people made at Yale, we kill the party. If we >>> don?t, we risk an identity conflict. There is no clear way out of this. >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: >>>> >>>> In case anyone's interested, I recently was a guest on the Atlanta >>>> NPR station, talking about political correctness (the implicit theme >>>> of >>> David's >>>> article on Yale). >>>> 2015 WABE (NPR) 90.5FM Atlanta: College PC Culture: It?s Not About >>>> Offending But Respecting >>> http://news.wabe.org/post/college-pc-culture-it-s-not-about-offending >>> -respecting >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>> xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David >>>> xmca-l-bounces+Preiss >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:22 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Halloween, Yale and other complications >>>> >>>> And so it goes with Halloween... It seems that this holiday is >>>> becoming a college issue. Here, a college master (I never liked the >>>> term because of the slavery implications it has), got in trouble >>>> because it did something different than the other university >>>> president: she asked the students to think independently. And the >>>> students were, of course, disgusted because >>> of >>>> the request. >>> http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intoleran >>> ce-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/ >> >> >> >> -- >> >> *********************** >> Ben DeVane, Ph.D >> Assistant Professor >> Psychological & Quantitative Foundations University of Iowa >> *********************** > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Nov 11 20:41:00 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:41:00 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Armistice/Veterans, what's in a name? Message-ID: A few days ago I commented on the names given to a national holiday on Nov 11 which, in the US, have changed during my life time from armistice day to memorial day to veterans day. I noted that the BBC has a big spread on Armistice day.... images of death, commemoration, grieving. On google, when I log in, there are pictures of a rainbow coalition of young adults in uniform, smiling.... at what? at how wonderful it will be to become a veteran? Why are they smiling, have they forgotten to anticipate the grieving? mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From Holli.Tonyan@csun.edu Wed Nov 11 22:49:41 2015 From: Holli.Tonyan@csun.edu (Tonyan, Holli A) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 06:49:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Armistice/Veterans, what's in a name? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I contribute seldom to this list and am a bit more of an observer, but Mike, your statements and questions prompted a contribution. You reminded me of my time in Australia when the history of 11/11 was so present in so many towns and cities and memorialized in many neighborhoods of Melbourne where I lived. The formal city memorial held a lovely ceremony and the city stopped to honor the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month. I understood the meaning of the day so much more clearly from just a few short years there than I had from all of my life in the US before those years. That may have been more true because I was an outsider there. Yet, I am struck at how the renaming you point to so erases the history of the day as also illustrated by the Google image and the many advertising campaigns that now so mark the holiday here in the US. NPR did a nice story about veterans' responses to the green light campaign Walmart has begun and the yellow ribbon campaigns. Many Veterans said they did not want to be memorialized, but wanted opportunities to provide leadership, support for the healing and grieving and opportunity for those who are not. So, you ask why are the Google vet faces smiling and we can also ask why there is so little memory of the grief and support for the grieving. Best wishes, Holli ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+holli.tonyan=csun.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 8:41 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Armistice/Veterans, what's in a name? A few days ago I commented on the names given to a national holiday on Nov 11 which, in the US, have changed during my life time from armistice day to memorial day to veterans day. I noted that the BBC has a big spread on Armistice day.... images of death, commemoration, grieving. On google, when I log in, there are pictures of a rainbow coalition of young adults in uniform, smiling.... at what? at how wonderful it will be to become a veteran? Why are they smiling, have they forgotten to anticipate the grieving? mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Thu Nov 12 01:58:09 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 04:58:09 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The value of Philosophy: xmca and the GOP Message-ID: It would be interesting to know how white people view the "black-skinned white man" (Frantz fanon's term)running on the Republican ticket. ?In many black circles he is the epitome of what carter g. Woodson refer to as "a miseducated negro" ?(overly religious in the religion of his former slavemaster, ignorant of his history, a false sense of self and identity, and a one-dimensional man). Juxtaposed against Obama who "appears" to struggle with a du boisian double consciousness, Carson is truly a by-product of American slavery. ?Do the two identities represent the liberalism and conservatism of the American body polity, or the absurd products of American slavery? Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: David Preiss Date: 11/11/2015 10:42 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The value of Philosophy: xmca and the GOP During the last three presidential elections (including this one), the GOP debates have became a curious mixture of reality show, bad comedy and pseudo-surrealism. It would be fun to watch if those guys on tv were not running to control one of the biggest nuclear arsenals on earth. On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 7:51 PM, JAG wrote: > RE: Rubio > > Children as welders? > > This has already been debunked (NYT 11/11) > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 10:13 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > ?Kim et al-- One of the big applause lines at the GOP debate last night > > came from Marco Rubio. Declaring (falsely) that welders earn more than > > philosophers, he got his applause by declaring "We need more welders and > > less philosophers" (qouted from memory). > > > > Given the high value placed on critical thinking, never mind the ground > > rules of civil discourse, our admiration > > for children-as-philosophers, among xmca participants, the applause might > > give one pause. A reminder of the centrality of values in the > organization > > of educational activities. > > > > Hmmmmm > > > > mike? > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Thu Nov 12 03:46:59 2015 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:46:59 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Armistice/Veterans, what's in a name? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: People is smiling because people forgot that war means people dying. For many countries now (USA, France, Russia, the UK) involvement in war has became an everyday matter and just a risk for a few professionally trained soldiers which do that as one does other job. On the other hand it can be carried out from home using drones from your office space after which you do your grocery shopping or sending superb planes which bomb villages using video-game like screens. Would a drone operator qualify as a war veteran in the same way than a WW2 veteran? Both suffer incredible damage but the former never "engaged physically" or immediately with its victims or put his physical life at stake. People smile in those countries because they are at war and they don't know it. On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 3:49 AM, Tonyan, Holli A wrote: > I contribute seldom to this list and am a bit more of an observer, but > Mike, your statements and questions prompted a contribution. You reminded > me of my time in Australia when the history of 11/11 was so present in so > many towns and cities and memorialized in many neighborhoods of Melbourne > where I lived. The formal city memorial held a lovely ceremony and the > city stopped to honor the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month. I > understood the meaning of the day so much more clearly from just a few > short years there than I had from all of my life in the US before those > years. That may have been more true because I was an outsider there. Yet, > I am struck at how the renaming you point to so erases the history of the > day as also illustrated by the Google image and the many advertising > campaigns that now so mark the holiday here in the US. NPR did a nice > story about veterans' responses to the green light campaign Walmart has > begun and the yellow ribbon campaigns. Many Veterans said they did not > want to be memorialized, but wanted opportunities to provide leadership, > support for the healing and grieving and opportunity for those who are not. > > So, you ask why are the Google vet faces smiling and we can also ask why > there is so little memory of the grief and support for the grieving. > > Best wishes, > Holli > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+holli.tonyan=csun.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike > cole > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 8:41 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Armistice/Veterans, what's in a name? > > A few days ago I commented on the names given to a national holiday on Nov > 11 which, in the US, have changed during my life time from armistice day to > memorial day to veterans day. I noted that the BBC has a big spread on > Armistice day.... images of death, commemoration, grieving. On google, when > I log in, there are pictures of a rainbow coalition of young adults in > uniform, smiling.... at what? at how wonderful it will be to become a > veteran? > Why are they smiling, have they forgotten to anticipate the grieving? > > mike > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Thu Nov 12 04:07:30 2015 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:07:30 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Armistice/Veterans, what's in a name? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This poem of Denise Levertov came handy to illustrate the point: https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/california-during-gulf-war And it was written in 1992.... On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:46 AM, David Preiss wrote: > People is smiling because people forgot that war means people dying. For > many countries now (USA, France, Russia, the UK) involvement in war has > became an everyday matter and just a risk for a few professionally trained > soldiers which do that as one does other job. On the other hand it can be > carried out from home using drones from your office space after which you > do your grocery shopping or sending superb planes which bomb villages using > video-game like screens. Would a drone operator qualify as a war veteran in > the same way than a WW2 veteran? Both suffer incredible damage but the > former never "engaged physically" or immediately with its victims or put > his physical life at stake. People smile in those countries because they > are at war and they don't know it. > > On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 3:49 AM, Tonyan, Holli A > wrote: > >> I contribute seldom to this list and am a bit more of an observer, but >> Mike, your statements and questions prompted a contribution. You reminded >> me of my time in Australia when the history of 11/11 was so present in so >> many towns and cities and memorialized in many neighborhoods of Melbourne >> where I lived. The formal city memorial held a lovely ceremony and the >> city stopped to honor the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month. I >> understood the meaning of the day so much more clearly from just a few >> short years there than I had from all of my life in the US before those >> years. That may have been more true because I was an outsider there. Yet, >> I am struck at how the renaming you point to so erases the history of the >> day as also illustrated by the Google image and the many advertising >> campaigns that now so mark the holiday here in the US. NPR did a nice >> story about veterans' responses to the green light campaign Walmart has >> begun and the yellow ribbon campaigns. Many Veterans said they did not >> want to be memorialized, but wanted opportunities to provide leadership, >> support for the healing and grieving and opportunity for those who are not. >> >> So, you ask why are the Google vet faces smiling and we can also ask why >> there is so little memory of the grief and support for the grieving. >> >> Best wishes, >> Holli >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces+holli.tonyan=csun.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of >> mike cole >> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 8:41 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Armistice/Veterans, what's in a name? >> >> A few days ago I commented on the names given to a national holiday on Nov >> 11 which, in the US, have changed during my life time from armistice day >> to >> memorial day to veterans day. I noted that the BBC has a big spread on >> Armistice day.... images of death, commemoration, grieving. On google, >> when >> I log in, there are pictures of a rainbow coalition of young adults in >> uniform, smiling.... at what? at how wonderful it will be to become a >> veteran? >> Why are they smiling, have they forgotten to anticipate the grieving? >> >> mike >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >> > From carolmacdon@gmail.com Thu Nov 12 07:58:35 2015 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:58:35 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Armistice/Veterans, what's in a name? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues Over the last two years I have read extensively on the First World War (started because I had to tutor a school child, and then I rapidly became fascinated). And then 2014 brought the BBC commemorations of 1914 to everybody's attention. It rapidly became a new type of war, siege warfare, and because for the first time, the civilian armies became involved. The casualty lists were so long because it was a very long war of attrition, until Germany came out from their defences in March 2018, and the war of movement picked up again. Semi-fictional books including, of course, the German "All quiet on the Western Front" reveal the effects it had on the soldiers themselves. So many saw many of their friends die. It was the first time that civilians really started to understand what war was about and how unglamorous it had become. And what a price there was to pay in young men's lives. It was the first time there were memorials to the fallen. (Not for the fallen in the Napoleonic wars a century earlier.) Although I fully agree that war has become depersonalised in many way, troops on the ground are still desperately affected - witness the lives of returning Iraq veterans, whose needs unfortunately are not taken seriously by society at large. Their visible scars of course, but also their psychological scars. Perhaps our remembrance must be for these men and women, here and now. And there is not a great deal for them to smile about. At least not that I know of. Carol On 12 November 2015 at 14:07, David Preiss wrote: > This poem of Denise Levertov came handy to illustrate the point: > > https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/california-during-gulf-war > > And it was written in 1992.... > > On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:46 AM, David Preiss > wrote: > > > People is smiling because people forgot that war means people dying. For > > many countries now (USA, France, Russia, the UK) involvement in war has > > became an everyday matter and just a risk for a few professionally > trained > > soldiers which do that as one does other job. On the other hand it can be > > carried out from home using drones from your office space after which you > > do your grocery shopping or sending superb planes which bomb villages > using > > video-game like screens. Would a drone operator qualify as a war veteran > in > > the same way than a WW2 veteran? Both suffer incredible damage but the > > former never "engaged physically" or immediately with its victims or put > > his physical life at stake. People smile in those countries because they > > are at war and they don't know it. > > > > On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 3:49 AM, Tonyan, Holli A > > wrote: > > > >> I contribute seldom to this list and am a bit more of an observer, but > >> Mike, your statements and questions prompted a contribution. You > reminded > >> me of my time in Australia when the history of 11/11 was so present in > so > >> many towns and cities and memorialized in many neighborhoods of > Melbourne > >> where I lived. The formal city memorial held a lovely ceremony and the > >> city stopped to honor the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month. > I > >> understood the meaning of the day so much more clearly from just a few > >> short years there than I had from all of my life in the US before those > >> years. That may have been more true because I was an outsider there. > Yet, > >> I am struck at how the renaming you point to so erases the history of > the > >> day as also illustrated by the Google image and the many advertising > >> campaigns that now so mark the holiday here in the US. NPR did a nice > >> story about veterans' responses to the green light campaign Walmart has > >> begun and the yellow ribbon campaigns. Many Veterans said they did not > >> want to be memorialized, but wanted opportunities to provide leadership, > >> support for the healing and grieving and opportunity for those who are > not. > >> > >> So, you ask why are the Google vet faces smiling and we can also ask why > >> there is so little memory of the grief and support for the grieving. > >> > >> Best wishes, > >> Holli > >> > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces+holli.tonyan=csun.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> on behalf of > >> mike cole > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 8:41 PM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Armistice/Veterans, what's in a name? > >> > >> A few days ago I commented on the names given to a national holiday on > Nov > >> 11 which, in the US, have changed during my life time from armistice day > >> to > >> memorial day to veterans day. I noted that the BBC has a big spread on > >> Armistice day.... images of death, commemoration, grieving. On google, > >> when > >> I log in, there are pictures of a rainbow coalition of young adults in > >> uniform, smiling.... at what? at how wonderful it will be to become a > >> veteran? > >> Why are they smiling, have they forgotten to anticipate the grieving? > >> > >> mike > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >> > >> > > > -- Carol A Macdonald PhD (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa Behind every gifted woman there is often a remarkable cat. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Nov 12 09:04:56 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:04:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Armistice/Veterans, what's in a name? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Without conflating it with our social ineffectiveness at politics (i.e. war), the notion of a smiling disposition is one that can be valued even though it may invite stupification too (i.e. a canalisation of consciousness according to the 'simple' present). It seems that we need and value the robust ability to get through difficult times, but that we don't want this robustness to inure ourselves to a lack of consciousness for possibilities. So we have a notion of "survival by smiling, and frown when you can afford to", which one might take as a philosophical disposition (if this is the 'bottom truth' of someone's experience). This isn't to say that 'green' soldiers' smiling is of the same quality, but perhaps in the training of such men and women it is considered an appropriate and natural form that is also compatible with the 'smiling disposition'. It is interesting how philosophical and political orientations (as a basis of orientation) go largely unexamined in all streams of life. Even to the extent that it is the intention to avoid examining them that seems to factor largely in many political disputes. Best, Huw On 12 November 2015 at 15:58, Carol Macdonald wrote: > Dear Colleagues > > Over the last two years I have read extensively on the First World War > (started because I had to tutor a school child, and then I rapidly became > fascinated). And then 2014 brought the BBC commemorations of 1914 to > everybody's attention. It rapidly became a new type of war, siege warfare, > and because for the first time, the civilian armies became involved. The > casualty lists were so long because it was a very long war of attrition, > until Germany came out from their defences in March 2018, and the war of > movement picked up again. > > Semi-fictional books including, of course, the German "All quiet on the > Western Front" reveal the effects it had on the soldiers themselves. So > many saw many of their friends die. It was the first time that civilians > really started to understand what war was about and how unglamorous it had > become. And what a price there was to pay in young men's lives. It was the > first time there were memorials to the fallen. (Not for the fallen in the > Napoleonic wars a century earlier.) > > Although I fully agree that war has become depersonalised in many way, > troops on the ground are still desperately affected - witness the lives of > returning Iraq veterans, whose needs unfortunately are not taken seriously > by society at large. Their visible scars of course, but also their > psychological scars. > > Perhaps our remembrance must be for these men and women, here and now. And > there is not a great deal for them to smile about. At least not that I know > of. > > Carol > > > On 12 November 2015 at 14:07, David Preiss wrote: > > > This poem of Denise Levertov came handy to illustrate the point: > > > > https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/california-during-gulf-war > > > > And it was written in 1992.... > > > > On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:46 AM, David Preiss > > wrote: > > > > > People is smiling because people forgot that war means people dying. > For > > > many countries now (USA, France, Russia, the UK) involvement in war has > > > became an everyday matter and just a risk for a few professionally > > trained > > > soldiers which do that as one does other job. On the other hand it can > be > > > carried out from home using drones from your office space after which > you > > > do your grocery shopping or sending superb planes which bomb villages > > using > > > video-game like screens. Would a drone operator qualify as a war > veteran > > in > > > the same way than a WW2 veteran? Both suffer incredible damage but the > > > former never "engaged physically" or immediately with its victims or > put > > > his physical life at stake. People smile in those countries because > they > > > are at war and they don't know it. > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 3:49 AM, Tonyan, Holli A < > Holli.Tonyan@csun.edu> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> I contribute seldom to this list and am a bit more of an observer, but > > >> Mike, your statements and questions prompted a contribution. You > > reminded > > >> me of my time in Australia when the history of 11/11 was so present in > > so > > >> many towns and cities and memorialized in many neighborhoods of > > Melbourne > > >> where I lived. The formal city memorial held a lovely ceremony and > the > > >> city stopped to honor the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month. > > I > > >> understood the meaning of the day so much more clearly from just a few > > >> short years there than I had from all of my life in the US before > those > > >> years. That may have been more true because I was an outsider there. > > Yet, > > >> I am struck at how the renaming you point to so erases the history of > > the > > >> day as also illustrated by the Google image and the many advertising > > >> campaigns that now so mark the holiday here in the US. NPR did a nice > > >> story about veterans' responses to the green light campaign Walmart > has > > >> begun and the yellow ribbon campaigns. Many Veterans said they did > not > > >> want to be memorialized, but wanted opportunities to provide > leadership, > > >> support for the healing and grieving and opportunity for those who are > > not. > > >> > > >> So, you ask why are the Google vet faces smiling and we can also ask > why > > >> there is so little memory of the grief and support for the grieving. > > >> > > >> Best wishes, > > >> Holli > > >> > > >> ________________________________________ > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces+holli.tonyan=csun.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >> on behalf of > > >> mike cole > > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 8:41 PM > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Armistice/Veterans, what's in a name? > > >> > > >> A few days ago I commented on the names given to a national holiday on > > Nov > > >> 11 which, in the US, have changed during my life time from armistice > day > > >> to > > >> memorial day to veterans day. I noted that the BBC has a big spread on > > >> Armistice day.... images of death, commemoration, grieving. On google, > > >> when > > >> I log in, there are pictures of a rainbow coalition of young adults in > > >> uniform, smiling.... at what? at how wonderful it will be to become a > > >> veteran? > > >> Why are they smiling, have they forgotten to anticipate the grieving? > > >> > > >> mike > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > Carol A Macdonald PhD (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > Behind every gifted woman there is often a remarkable cat. > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Nov 12 18:18:27 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 02:18:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The value of Philosophy: xmca and the GOP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I suspect a "du bosian" consciousness reflects a particular personality. Sure, we inhabit cultural tensions, but those of us who are "constantly trying to reconcile them" would be a rather small minority, I think. I know next to nothing of Carson, save a few guardian reports seemingly taking rather myopic perspectives, such as how he like to decorate his home. The only thing here that I stopped to reflect on really, is that the whole point of a biblical vs evolutionary rhetoric isn't really about ideas per se but about the desired fabric of communication. If one takes the view that orderliness is to be adhered to, then ideas can be rather superficial things. Perhaps Carson isn't living false cultural values but rather that these values are ones that he takes as a given and brings them together in a solid and dependable manner, because he firmly believes in order and regulation? Best, Huw On 12 November 2015 at 09:58, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > > > It would be interesting to know how white people view the "black-skinned > white man" (Frantz fanon's term)running on the Republican ticket. In many > black circles he is the epitome of what carter g. Woodson refer to as "a > miseducated negro" (overly religious in the religion of his former > slavemaster, ignorant of his history, a false sense of self and identity, > and a one-dimensional man). Juxtaposed against Obama who "appears" to > struggle with a du boisian double consciousness, Carson is truly a > by-product of American slavery. Do the two identities represent the > liberalism and conservatism of the American body polity, or the absurd > products of American slavery? > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: David Preiss > Date: 11/11/2015 10:42 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The value of Philosophy: xmca and the GOP > > During the last three presidential elections (including this one), the GOP > debates have became a curious mixture of reality show, bad comedy and > pseudo-surrealism. It would be fun to watch if those guys on tv were not > running to control one of the biggest nuclear arsenals on earth. > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 7:51 PM, JAG wrote: > > > RE: Rubio > > > > Children as welders? > > > > This has already been debunked (NYT 11/11) > > > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 10:13 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > ?Kim et al-- One of the big applause lines at the GOP debate last night > > > came from Marco Rubio. Declaring (falsely) that welders earn more than > > > philosophers, he got his applause by declaring "We need more welders > and > > > less philosophers" (qouted from memory). > > > > > > Given the high value placed on critical thinking, never mind the ground > > > rules of civil discourse, our admiration > > > for children-as-philosophers, among xmca participants, the applause > might > > > give one pause. A reminder of the centrality of values in the > > organization > > > of educational activities. > > > > > > Hmmmmm > > > > > > mike? > > > > > > -- > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Thu Nov 12 20:07:36 2015 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 01:07:36 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications In-Reply-To: <56441305.4080002@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> References: <63E8B566-663F-454A-A285-C4C1F6C86149@gmail.com> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311038501B8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9C18075@CIO-TNC-D1MBX11.osuad.osu.edu> <56441305.4080002@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: A very smart note on the Yale/Halloween divide: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/11/12/heres-what-my-yale-students-get-free-expression-and-anti-racism-arent-mutually-exclusive/ On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 1:18 AM, Wilkinson wrote: > Carnival is also associated with Mardi Gras and that in turn with > Dionysian (as opposed to Apollonian) festival - which is exuberant, > cathartic, and random - could be Serendipitous or could be fatal. > Weaving together the literature and culture with primary and secondary > education is a discourse project which requires a framework. > Mobs riots swarms, Maharishi effect. > All these things cannot be plotted on a single line. > Dropping in with a comment on the fly, > Vandy Wilkinson > > > n 2015/11/12 4:42, Glassman, Michael wrote: > >> Hi Rod >> >> I have been rethinking the idea of Carnival in the context of swarm >> intelligence and the types of turns it can take, like how celebrations >> after sports events can turn very dark very quickly. It is interesting >> that carnival in the United States often has very dark connotations. There >> was recently an exploration by American Horror Story into this dark side of >> carnival Almost always it is portrayed in very dark color. The carnival >> barker is not a very good character. Clowns really are scary. Has anybody >> explore the two sides of carnival? >> >> Michael >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >> Behalf Of Rod Parker-Rees >> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 2:33 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications >> >> I have just been reading a lovely book by Barbara Ehrenreich - 'Dancing >> in the streets: a history of collective joy' which deals with the familiar >> arguments about the role of carnival as an opportunity to play with the >> rules and constraints of everyday life - a culturally important function >> for playfulness. >> >> Rod >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] >> On Behalf Of greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >> Sent: 11 November 2015 18:43 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Halloween, Yale and other complications >> >> Stanton wortham has done interesting work on role playing in the >> classroom and how the identities of the roles bleed into the identities of >> the role players. >> -Greg >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Nov 10, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Ben DeVane wrote: >>> >>> David, >>> >>> I have some awareness of the literature on play, and I have to object >>> to your characterization. I would invite correction, but most >>> contemporary literature on the anthropology or sociology does not view >>> play as a complete or even thorough "suspension of the rules regulating >>> social life". >>> In fact, the rules of social life are often thoroughly embedded in >>> play, albeit altered in some way. Gary Alan Fine's work on live-action >>> role play does an excellent job of examining the layers of "nested >>> identities" that are made manifest in such play, and my colleague >>> Thomas Malaby explores the blurred lines between work and play in >>> contemporary games in depth (drawing on Ortner's work on Himalayan >>> mountaineering). >>> >>> Your example of the costume party serves to illustrate the point: All >>> rules are not suspended. At a costume party, one cannot crudely insult >>> the other guests, abuse the furniture, be careless with one's drink, >>> or grope the other guests, without being ejected for misconduct. (I >>> include groping because 'in-character' sexual harassment is an >>> infamous problem in live-action role-playing games). And if one were >>> to show up with a costume crudely mocking a number of participants, >>> one might expect said partygoers to give voice to their displeasure. >>> >>> If one were to show up at a Yale housemaster's Halloween party in >>> costume as an oblivious, overpaid, and unqualified residential hall >>> administrator, I doubt one would be warmly received. In said example, >>> the resulting lecture would likely tackle the topic of civility >>> instead of "thinking for one's self". >>> >>> Ben >>> >>> P.S. No rules were "set up" at Yale. Only educational materials about >>> cultural sensitivity were distributed. >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:58 PM, David Preiss >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks for the link, Peter! I will hear it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It is curious how Halloween became a mirror of how difficult is to >>>> deal with cultural and other differences. >>>> >>>> When is a costume celebratory and when is a costume offensive? There >>>> is not clear-cut line. >>>> >>>> One wears a costume because one is borrowing other (living or dead) >>>> person?s identity to play a game. Indeed, wearing a costume always >>>> involves some sort of pretense. I pretend to be somebody else as a >>>> part of an activity that intends to be non-serious and involves and >>>> agreed (or >>>> collaborative) suspension of the rules regulating social life. >>>> >>>> Problem is we all take our (cultural, other) identities quite seriously. >>>> Yet, if we don't suspend the serious rules we adhere to build our >>>> identities at some point in our daily lives there is no chance at all >>>> to make a costume party. And if we can?t make a costume party, we may >>>> become not only boring but eventually fundamentalist. >>>> >>>> Therefore, there has to be room to play, to make a costume party, at >>>> least in a society that allows for some difference. >>>> >>>> Question remains, how far can we go in this game so it does not >>>> become an aggression instead of a celebration of difference. If we >>>> set up rules, as some people made at Yale, we kill the party. If we >>>> don?t, we risk an identity conflict. There is no clear way out of this. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Peter Smagorinsky >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> In case anyone's interested, I recently was a guest on the Atlanta >>>>> NPR station, talking about political correctness (the implicit theme >>>>> of >>>>> >>>> David's >>>> >>>>> article on Yale). >>>>> 2015 WABE (NPR) 90.5FM Atlanta: College PC Culture: It?s Not About >>>>> Offending But Respecting >>>>> >>>> http://news.wabe.org/post/college-pc-culture-it-s-not-about-offending >>>> -respecting >>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>> xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David >>>>> xmca-l-bounces+Preiss >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:22 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Halloween, Yale and other complications >>>>> >>>>> And so it goes with Halloween... It seems that this holiday is >>>>> becoming a college issue. Here, a college master (I never liked the >>>>> term because of the slavery implications it has), got in trouble >>>>> because it did something different than the other university >>>>> president: she asked the students to think independently. And the >>>>> students were, of course, disgusted because >>>>> >>>> of >>>> >>>>> the request. >>>>> >>>> http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intoleran >>>> ce-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *********************** >>> Ben DeVane, Ph.D >>> Assistant Professor >>> Psychological & Quantitative Foundations University of Iowa >>> *********************** >>> >> >> ________________________________ >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >> >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for >> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the >> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the >> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. >> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not >> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts >> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails >> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility >> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its >> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied >> by an official order form. >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > From smago@uga.edu Fri Nov 13 09:02:54 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:02:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] psychology--still encased within the skull Message-ID: I was looking someone up and came across this image of psychology from the Psych dept at Michigan-Flint. It appears to be a brain thing only. hmmmmm [cid:image001.png@01D11E0B.1161A320] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 169868 bytes Desc: image001.png Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151113/f02fc45e/attachment.png From ConneryMC@cwu.edu Fri Nov 13 09:13:21 2015 From: ConneryMC@cwu.edu (Mary Connery) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:13:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: psychology--still encased within the skull In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Peter: The attachment did not come through. Could you resend? Many thanks, Cathrene Dr. Cathrene Connery On Nov 13, 2015, at 9:11 AM, "Peter Smagorinsky" wrote: > I was looking someone up and came across this image of psychology from the Psych dept at Michigan-Flint. It appears to be a brain thing only. hmmmmm > [cid:image001.png@01D11E0B.1161A320] From zamorskabeata@gmail.com Fri Nov 13 09:46:48 2015 From: zamorskabeata@gmail.com (Beata Zamorska) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:46:48 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] EUROPEAN DOCTORATE IN TEACHER EDUCATION Message-ID: <0B7FB3BD-CC93-4EEB-8E7D-A239D908E6E2@gmail.com> Dear Collegaues, I would like to bring to you attention an excellent opportunity for doctoral candidates - 15 fully founded (including benefits and mobility allowance) doctoral researcher positions (Early Stage Researchers) in the field of Teacher Education at 5 European universities including the University of Lower Silesia in Wroc?aw, Poland. I would appreciate it if you could bring this to the attention of potential candidates. With many thanks, Beata Zamorska EUROPEAN DOCTORATE IN TEACHER EDUCATION (EDITE) EDITE ? EJD PROGRAMME VACANCIES: 15 EARLY STAGE RESEARCHER POSITIONS AT FIVE EUROPEAN UNIVERSITIES APPLICATION DEADLINE: DECEMBER 4, 2015 The EDiTE project offers 15 full-time researcher positions in the field of Teacher Education at five universities (host universities) for well-motivated and excellent early stage researchers from Europe and other countries (under the condition that the funding authority approves the funding of all 15 ESR positions). The positions are financed from the European Union?s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under the Marie-Sklodowska-Curie grant agreement number 676452. Early Stage Researchers (ESRs) are invited to apply to pursue individual research projects at one of the five partner universities (E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest, Hungary; University of Innsbruck, Austria; University of Lisbon, Portugal; University of Lower Silesia, Wroclaw, Poland and Masaryk University, Brno, Czech Republic) in the framework of the joint EDiTE research program as employed researchers. They will also be enrolled in the EDiTE PhD programme at host universities. The overall term of employment is 36 months, which should be concluded by a successful research project with the awarding of the PhD title by the host institution and a joint EDiTE diploma by the EDiTE university consortium. From smago@uga.edu Fri Nov 13 09:46:42 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:46:42 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: psychology--still encased within the skull In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Mary Connery Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 12:13 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: psychology--still encased within the skull Hi Peter: The attachment did not come through. Could you resend? Many thanks, Cathrene Dr. Cathrene Connery On Nov 13, 2015, at 9:11 AM, "Peter Smagorinsky" wrote: > I was looking someone up and came across this image of psychology from > the Psych dept at Michigan-Flint. It appears to be a brain thing only. > hmmmmm [cid:image001.png@01D11E0B.1161A320] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 169868 bytes Desc: image001.png Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151113/64a20e8d/attachment.png From smago@uga.edu Fri Nov 13 09:48:59 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:48:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: psychology--still encased within the skull In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://www.umflint.edu/Psychology/faculty#accordion-psychology-department is where I got the image from, if you're having trouble with the attachment. p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 12:03 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) Subject: [Xmca-l] psychology--still encased within the skull I was looking someone up and came across this image of psychology from the Psych dept at Michigan-Flint. It appears to be a brain thing only. hmmmmm [cid:image001.png@01D11E0B.1161A320] From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Nov 13 09:51:13 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:51:13 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: psychology--still encased within the skull In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Any better? http://a.abcnews.com/images/Entertainment/ht_paul_schneggenburger_sleep_of_the_beloved_ss_b_h_lpl_130129_ssh.jpg Huw On 13 November 2015 at 17:02, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I was looking someone up and came across this image of psychology from the > Psych dept at Michigan-Flint. It appears to be a brain thing only. hmmmmm > [cid:image001.png@01D11E0B.1161A320] > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri Nov 13 10:14:08 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 11:14:08 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Psychology - escaped from within the skull Message-ID: A propos Peter's post, I thought others might appreciate this interview with Guy Claxton, author of *Intelligence in the Flesh: Why Your Mind Needs Your Body More Than It Thinks* http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/intelligence-flesh I thought it was a very thoughtful take on the important role of the body in thinking. My favorite was the fact that neurons responsible for grasping are activated when subjects are asked to evaluate the goodness of a sentence "he grasped the argument." Suggests to me that the body is involved in much more than "just" those things that we would normally call "bodily things"... -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Nov 13 17:01:43 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:01:43 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology - escaped from within the skull In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Apropos of Greg's post and grasping an argument, this wikipedia entry on enactivism indicates links to issues long under discussion on xmca. I take this point of view to be one championed by Zinchenko, Zaporozhets, and others of that generation of cultural-historical scholars in Russia, Ukraine, and.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enactivism mike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enactivism On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > A propos Peter's post, I thought others might appreciate this interview > with Guy Claxton, author of *Intelligence in the Flesh: Why Your Mind Needs > Your Body More Than It Thinks* > > http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/intelligence-flesh > > I thought it was a very thoughtful take on the important role of the body > in thinking. My favorite was the fact that neurons responsible for grasping > are activated when subjects are asked to evaluate the goodness of a > sentence "he grasped the argument." > > Suggests to me that the body is involved in much more than "just" those > things that we would normally call "bodily things"... > > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Nov 13 17:01:43 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:01:43 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology - escaped from within the skull In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Apropos of Greg's post and grasping an argument, this wikipedia entry on enactivism indicates links to issues long under discussion on xmca. I take this point of view to be one championed by Zinchenko, Zaporozhets, and others of that generation of cultural-historical scholars in Russia, Ukraine, and.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enactivism mike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enactivism On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > A propos Peter's post, I thought others might appreciate this interview > with Guy Claxton, author of *Intelligence in the Flesh: Why Your Mind Needs > Your Body More Than It Thinks* > > http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/intelligence-flesh > > I thought it was a very thoughtful take on the important role of the body > in thinking. My favorite was the fact that neurons responsible for grasping > are activated when subjects are asked to evaluate the goodness of a > sentence "he grasped the argument." > > Suggests to me that the body is involved in much more than "just" those > things that we would normally call "bodily things"... > > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Nov 13 17:48:43 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:48:43 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology - escaped from within the skull In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564692fe.22ae440a.36c34.ffffaacd@mx.google.com> Greg, mike, I happened to be reading an article I downloaded from academia.edu written by David Seamon titled (lived bodies, place, and phenomenology implications for human rights and environmental justice). The article uses the work of Jane Jacobs to develop the meaning of *place* related to *meaning*. Here is seamon defining (place): Phenomenologically, place can be defined as any environmental locus that draws human experiences, actions, and meanings together spatially.... >From a phenomenological perspective, place is NOT the material environment distinct from people related to it but rather, the indivisible, normally unnoticed phenomenon or person-or-people-experiencing-place. The article is exploring place justice as a key aspect of justifying actions. Larry -----Original Message----- From: "mike cole" Sent: ?2015-?11-?13 5:03 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Cc: "xmca-l@ucsd.edu" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology - escaped from within the skull Apropos of Greg's post and grasping an argument, this wikipedia entry on enactivism indicates links to issues long under discussion on xmca. I take this point of view to be one championed by Zinchenko, Zaporozhets, and others of that generation of cultural-historical scholars in Russia, Ukraine, and.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enactivism mike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enactivism On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > A propos Peter's post, I thought others might appreciate this interview > with Guy Claxton, author of *Intelligence in the Flesh: Why Your Mind Needs > Your Body More Than It Thinks* > > http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/intelligence-flesh > > I thought it was a very thoughtful take on the important role of the body > in thinking. My favorite was the fact that neurons responsible for grasping > are activated when subjects are asked to evaluate the goodness of a > sentence "he grasped the argument." > > Suggests to me that the body is involved in much more than "just" those > things that we would normally call "bodily things"... > > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Nov 13 17:48:43 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:48:43 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology - escaped from within the skull In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564692fe.22ae440a.36c34.ffffaacd@mx.google.com> Greg, mike, I happened to be reading an article I downloaded from academia.edu written by David Seamon titled (lived bodies, place, and phenomenology implications for human rights and environmental justice). The article uses the work of Jane Jacobs to develop the meaning of *place* related to *meaning*. Here is seamon defining (place): Phenomenologically, place can be defined as any environmental locus that draws human experiences, actions, and meanings together spatially.... >From a phenomenological perspective, place is NOT the material environment distinct from people related to it but rather, the indivisible, normally unnoticed phenomenon or person-or-people-experiencing-place. The article is exploring place justice as a key aspect of justifying actions. Larry -----Original Message----- From: "mike cole" Sent: ?2015-?11-?13 5:03 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Cc: "xmca-l@ucsd.edu" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology - escaped from within the skull Apropos of Greg's post and grasping an argument, this wikipedia entry on enactivism indicates links to issues long under discussion on xmca. I take this point of view to be one championed by Zinchenko, Zaporozhets, and others of that generation of cultural-historical scholars in Russia, Ukraine, and.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enactivism mike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enactivism On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > A propos Peter's post, I thought others might appreciate this interview > with Guy Claxton, author of *Intelligence in the Flesh: Why Your Mind Needs > Your Body More Than It Thinks* > > http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/intelligence-flesh > > I thought it was a very thoughtful take on the important role of the body > in thinking. My favorite was the fact that neurons responsible for grasping > are activated when subjects are asked to evaluate the goodness of a > sentence "he grasped the argument." > > Suggests to me that the body is involved in much more than "just" those > things that we would normally call "bodily things"... > > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Nov 16 18:28:56 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 18:28:56 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Paris and the Islamic State In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Perhaps of interest. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Scott Atran Date: Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 5:51 PM Subject: Paris and the Islamic State To: COG-SCI-REL-L@jiscmail.ac.uk Dear Colleagues FYI [image: Inline image 1] *Paris: The War ISIS Wants* *Scott Atran and Nafees Hamid * The shock produced by the multiple coordinated attacks in Paris on Friday?the scenes of indiscriminate bloodshed and terror on the streets, the outrage against Islamic extremism among the public, French President Francois Holland?s vow to be ?merciless? in the fight against the ?barbarians of the Islamic State??is, unfortunately, precisely what ISIS intended. For the greater the hostility toward Muslims in Europe and the deeper the West becomes involved in military action in the Middle East, the closer ISIS comes to its goal of creating and managing chaos. This is a strategy that has enabled it to confound far superior international forces, while enhancing its legitimacy in the eyes of its followers. The complexity of the French plot also suggests how successful ISIS has been at cultivating sources of support within the native populations of secular Western countries. Attacking ISIS in Syria will not contain this global movement, which now includes more than two thousand French citizens. As our own research has shown?in interviews with youth in Paris, London, and Barcelona, as well as with captured ISIS fighters in Iraq and Jabhat an-Nusra (al-Qaeda) fighters from Syria?simply treating the Islamic State as a form of ?terrorism? or ?violent extremism? masks the menace. Dismissing the group as ?nihilistic? reflects a dangerous avoidance of trying to comprehend, and deal with, its profoundly alluring mission to change and save the world. What many in the international community regard as acts of senseless, horrific violence are to ISIS?s followers part of an exalted campaign of purification through sacrificial killing and self-immolation. This is the purposeful violence that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the Islamic State?s self-anointed Caliph, has called ?the volcanoes of Jihad??creating an international jihadi archipelago that will eventually unite to destroy the present world to create a new-old world of universal justice and peace under the Prophet?s banner. Indeed, ISIS?s theatrical brutality?whether in the Middle East or now in Europe?is part of a conscious plan designed to instill among believers a sense of meaning that is sacred and sublime, while scaring the hell out of fence-sitters and enemies. This strategy was outlined in the 2004 manifesto *Idharat at Tawahoush*(The Management of Savagery), a tract written for ISIS?s precursor, the Iraqi branch of al-Qaeda;*tawahoush* comes from *wahsh* or ?beast,? so an animal-like state. Here are some of its main axioms: Diversify and widen the vexation strikes against the Crusader-Zionist enemy in every place in the Islamic world, and even outside of it if possible, so as to disperse the efforts of the alliance of the enemy and thus drain it to the greatest extent possible. To be effective, attacks should be launched against soft targets that cannot possibly be defended to any appreciable degree, leading to a debilitating security state: If a tourist resort that the Crusaders patronize?is hit, all of the tourist resorts in all of the states of the world will have to be secured by the work of additional forces, which are double the ordinary amount, and a huge increase in spending. Crucially, these tactics are also designed to appeal to disaffected young who tend to rebel against authority, are eager for for self-sacrifice, and are filled with energy and idealism that calls for ?moderation? ( *wasatiyyah*) only seek to suppress. The aim is to motivate crowds drawn from the masses to fly to the regions which we manage, particularly the youth? [For] the youth of the nation are closer to the innate nature [of humans] on account of the rebelliousness within them. Finally, these violent attacks should be used to draw the West as deeply and actively as possible into military conflict: Work to expose the weakness of America?s centralized power by pushing it to abandon the media psychological war and war by proxy until it fights directly. Eleven years later, ISIS is using this approach against America?s most important allies in Europe. For ISIS, causing chaos in France has special impetus. The first major military push by the Islamic State Caliphate in the summer of 2014 was to obliterate the international border between Syria and Iraq?a symbol of the arbitrary division of the Arab and Muslim world imposed by France and Great Britain after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, seat of the last Muslim Caliphate. And because the lights of Paris epitomize cultural secularism for the world and thus ?ignorance of divine guidance? (*jahiliyyah*), they must be extinguished until rekindled by God?s divine radiance (*an-Noor*). The fact that The EU?s replacement rate is 1.59 children per couple and the continent needs substantial levels of immigration to maintain a productive workforce?at a time where there is a refugee crisis and amid greater hostility to immigrants than ever?is another form of chaos the Islamic State is well-positioned to exploit. French authorities have found the passport, possibly doctored, of one Syrian national associated with the Paris attacks, as well as two fake Turkish passports, indicating that ISIS is taking advantage of Europe?s refugee crisis, and encouraging hostility and suspicion toward those legitimately seeking refuge in order to further drive a wedge between Muslims and European non-Muslims. Today, France has one of the largest Muslim minorities in Europe. French Muslims are also predominantly a social underclass, a legacy of France?s colonial past and indifference to its aftermath. For example, although just 7 to 8 percent of France?s population is Muslim, as much as 70 percent of the prison population is Muslim, a situation that has left a very large number of young French Muslims vulnerable to absorbing radical ideas in prison and out. Within this social landscape, ISIS finds success. France has contributed more foreign fighters to ISIS than any other Western country. One attacker at the Bataclan concert hall, where the highest number of people were killed, was twenty-nine-year-old Isma?l Omar Mostefa?, a French citizen of Algerian and Portuguese origin from the Paris area. He had a criminal record and had traveled to Syria for a few months between 2013 and 2014?a profile similar the two Kouachi brothers, also French nationals of Algerian origin living in Paris proper, who had trained with al-Qaeda?s affiliate in Yemen before carrying out the *Charlie Hebdo* attacks in Paris in January. Other presumed plotters of Friday?s attacks include two brothers, Salah Abdeslam Salah, twenty-six, who remains at large, and his brother Ibrahim, thirty-one, who detonated a suicide bomb near the Stade de France soccer stadium. Although French citizens, the Abdeslam brothers had been living in Molenbeek, a poor Brussels barrio populated by Arab immigrants. In the last year, weapons from that neighborhood have been linked to Parisian-born Amedy Coulilaby, a thirty-three-year-old of Malian descent who had been a jail buddy of one of the Kouachi brothers and who carried out the lethal January attack on a Kosher supermarket in Paris; and Mehdi Nemmouche, twenty-nine, a French national of Algerian origin who spent a over a year with ISIS in Syria and was responsible for the deadly shootings at the Jewish Museum of Belgium. Another of the Paris suicide bombers, twenty-year-old Bilal Hadfi, was also a French national who fought with the Islamic State before returning to Belgium, which has the highest per capita rate of jihadi volunteers from Europe. Two other Belgians, one of whom was eighteen, were also involved in the Paris attacks, as well as a twenty-seven-year-old Egyptian, Yousef Salahel. As with the 2004 Madrid train bombings and the 2005 London Underground bombings, what seems to be emerging from the fragmentary reports so far is that the Paris attacks were carried out by a loose network of family, friends, and fellow travelers who may have each followed their own, somewhat independent paths to radical Islam before joining up with ISIS. But their closely coordinated actions at multiple sites in Paris indicate a significant degree of training, collective planning, and command and control by the Islamic State (including via encrypted messages), under the likely direction of Abdelhamid Abaooud, known as Abu Omar, ?The Belgian,? a twenty-seven-year-old of Moroccan origin from Molenbeek, who is now in Syria. Such coordination has been facilitated by the very large contingent of French foreign fighters in Syria. In April, French Senator Jean-Pierre Suer said that 1,430 men and women from France had made their way to Iraq and Syria, up from just twenty as of 2012. About 20 percent of these people are converts. The latest report from West Point?s Center for Combating Terrorism , which has detailed records on 182 French fighters, notes that most are in their twenties. About 25 percent come from the Paris area, with the rest scattered over smaller regions throughout France. According toFrance?s Interior Ministry , 571 French citizens or residents are presently in Syria and Iraq, some with al-Qaeda affiliate Jabhat an-Nusra, but most with ISIS. More than 260 people are known to have returned to France, and more than 2,000 people from France have been directly implicated in the jihadi pipeline to and from the region, which extends across Europe: police have already made arrests in Belgium and Germany related to the Paris attacks, and traced the entry into Europe of one of the attackers, a Syrian national, through Greece. French counterterrorism surveillance data (FSPRT ) has identified 11,400 radical Islamists, 25 percent of whom are women and 16 percent minors?among the minors, females are in a majority. Legal proceedings are now underway against 646 people suspected of involvement in terrorist activity. French Prime Minister Manuel Valls conceded after Friday?s attacks that even keeping full track of those suspected of being prone to violent acts is practically impossible: around-the-clock surveillance of a single individual requires ten to twenty security agents, of which there are only 6,500 for all of France. Nor is it a matter of controlling the flow of people into France. France?s Center for the Prevention of Sectarian Drift Related to Islam (CPDSI) estimates that 90 percent of French citizens who have radical Islamist beliefs have French grandparents and 80 percent come from non-religious families. In fact, most Europeans who are drawn into jihad are ?born again? into radical religion by their social peers. In France, and in Europe more generally, more than three of every four recruits join the Islamic State together with friends, while only one in five do so with family members and very few through direct recruitment by strangers. Many of these young people identify with neither the country their parents come from nor the country in which they live. Other identities are weak and non-motivating. One woman in the Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois described her conversion as being like that of a transgender person who opts out of the gender assigned at birth: ?I was like a Muslim trapped in a Christian body,? she said. She believed she was only able to live fully as a Muslim with dignity in the Islamic State. For others who have struggled to find meaning in their lives, ISIS is a thrilling cause and call to action that promises glory and esteem in the eyes of friends, and through friends, eternal respect and remembrance in the wider world that many of them will never live to enjoy. A July 2014 poll by ICM Research suggested that more than one in four French youth of all creeds between the ages of eighteen and twenty-four have a favorable or very favorable opinion of ISIS. Even if these estimates are high, in our own interviews with young people in the vast and soulless housing projects of the Paris banlieues we found surprisingly wide tolerance or support for ISIS among young people who want to be rebels with a cause?who want, as they see it, to defend the oppressed. Yet the desire these young people in France express is not to be a ?devout Muslim? but to become a *mujahid*(?holy warrior?): to take the radical step, immediately satisfying and life-changing, to obtain meaning through self-sacrifice. Although feelings of marginalization and outrage may build over a long time, the transition from struggling identity to *mujahid* is often fast and furious. The death of six of the eight Paris attackers by suicide bombs and one in a hail of police bullets testifies to the sincerity of this commitment, as do the hundreds of French volunteer deaths in Syria and Iraq. As one twenty-four-year-old who joined Jabhat an-Nusra in Syria told us: They [Western society] teach us to work hard to buy a nice car and nice clothes but that isn?t happiness. I was a third-class human because I wasn?t integrated into a corrupted system. But I didn?t want to be a street gangster. So, I and my friends simply decided to go around and invite people to join Islam. The other Muslim groups in the city just talk. They think a true Muslim state will just rain from heaven on them without fighting and striving hard on the path of Allah. French converts from families of Christian origin are often the most vociferous defenders of the Islamic State. There?s something about joining someone else?s fight that makes one fierce. When we asked a former body builder from Epinay-sur-Seine, a northern suburb of Paris, why he converted to Islam he said that he had been in and out of jail, constantly getting into trouble. ?I was a mess, with nothing to me, until the idea of following the *mujahid*?s way gave me rules to live by?: to channel his energy into jihad and defend his Muslim brethren under attack from infidels in France and everywhere, ?from Palestine to Burma.? Because many foreign volunteers are marginal in their host countries, a pervasive belief among Western governments and NGOs is that offering would-be enlistees jobs or spouses or access to education could reduce violence and counter the Caliphate?s pull. But a still unpublished report by the World Bank shows no reliable relationship between increasing employment and reducing violence, suggesting that people with such opportunities are just as likely to be susceptible to jihadism. When I asked one World Bank representative why this was not published, he responded, ?Our clients [that is, governments] wouldn?t like it because they?ve got too much invested in the idea.? As research has shown with those who joined al-Qaeda, prior marriage does not seem to be a deterrent to those now volunteering for ISIS; and among the senior ranks of such groups, there are many who have had access to considerable education?especially in scientific fields such as engineering and medicine that require great discipline and a willingness to delay gratification. If people are ready to sacrifice their lives, then it is not likely that offers of greater material advantages will stop them. (In fact, our research shows that material incentives, or disincentives, often backfire and increase commitment by devoted actors). In its feckless ?Think Again Turn Away? social media program, the US State Department has tried to dissuade youth with mostly negative anonymous messaging. ?So DAESH wants to build a future, well is beheading a future you want, or someone controlling details of your diet and dress?? Can anyone not know that already? Does it really matter to those drawn to the cause despite, or even because of, such things? As one teenage girl from a Chicago suburb retorted to FBI agents who stopped her from flying to Syria: ?Well, what about the barrel bombings that kill thousands? Maybe if the beheading helps to stop that.? And for some, strict obedience provides freedom from uncertainty about what a good person is to do. By contrast, the Islamic State may spend hundreds of hours trying to enlist single individuals and groups of friends, empathizing instead of lecturing, to learn how to turn their personal frustrations and grievances into a universal theme of persecution against all Muslims, and thus translate anger and frustrated aspiration into moral outrage. From Syria, a young woman messages another: I know how hard it is to leave behind the mother and father you love, and not tell them until you are here, that you will always love them but that you were put on this earth to do more than be with or honor your parents. I know this will probably be the hardest thing you may ever have to do, but let me help you explain it to yourself and to them. And any serious engagement must be attuned to individuals and their networks, not to mass marketing of repetitive messages. Young people empathize with each other; they generally don?t lecture at one another. There are nearly fifty thousand Twitter accounts supporting ISIS, with an average of some one thousand followers each. In Amman last month, a former imam from the Islamic State told us: The young who came to us were not to be lectured at like witless children; they are for the most part understanding and compassionate, but misguided. We have to give them a better message, but a positive one to compete. Otherwise, they will be lost to Daesh. Some officials speaking for Western governments at the East Asia summit in Singapore last April argued that the Caliphate is traditional power politics masquerading as mythology. Research on those drawn to the cause show that this is a dangerous misconception. The Caliphate has re-emerged as a seductive mobilizing cause in the minds of many Muslims, from the Levant to Western Europe. As one imam in Barcelona involved in interfaith dialogue with Christians and Jews told us: ?I am against the violence of al-Qaeda and ISIS, but they have put our predicament in Europe and elsewhere on the map. Before, we were just ignored. And the Caliphate?. We dream of it like the Jews long dreamed of Zion. Maybe it can be a federation, like the European Union, of Muslim peoples. The Caliphate is here, in our hearts, even if we don?t know what real form it will finally take.? France, the United States, and our allies may opt for force of arms, with all of the unforeseen and unintended consequences that are likely to result from all-out war. But even if ISIS is destroyed, its message could still captivate many in coming generations. Until we recognize the passions this message is capable of stirring up among disaffected youth around the world, we risk strengthening them and contributing to the chaos that ISIS cherishes. November 16, 2015, 10:30 a.m. http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2015/nov/16/paris-attacks-isis-strategy-chaos/ -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 14816 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151116/9692db1c/attachment.png From ablunden@mira.net Mon Nov 16 19:05:42 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:05:42 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Paris and the Islamic State In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564A9986.4040502@mira.net> Thanks, Mike! Scott Atran is the best I know on this topic. His analysis is based on extensive field work amongst the populations which supply ISIS with their recruits and his ideas are of interest to CHAT. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 17/11/2015 1:28 PM, mike cole wrote: > Perhaps of interest. > mike > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Scott Atran > Date: Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 5:51 PM > Subject: Paris and the Islamic State > To: COG-SCI-REL-L@jiscmail.ac.uk > > > Dear Colleagues > > FYI > > [image: Inline image 1] > > *Paris: The War ISIS Wants* > > *Scott Atran > and Nafees > Hamid * > > > The shock produced by the multiple coordinated attacks in Paris on > Friday?the scenes of indiscriminate bloodshed and terror on the streets, > the outrage against Islamic extremism among the public, French President > Francois Holland?s vow to be ?merciless? in the fight against the > ?barbarians of the Islamic State??is, unfortunately, precisely what ISIS > intended. For the greater the hostility toward Muslims in Europe and the > deeper the West becomes involved in military action in the Middle East, the > closer ISIS comes to its goal of creating and managing chaos. > > This is a strategy that has enabled it to confound far superior > international forces, while enhancing its legitimacy in the eyes of its > followers. The complexity of the French plot also suggests how successful > ISIS has been at cultivating sources of support within the native > populations of secular Western countries. Attacking ISIS in Syria will not > contain this global movement, which now includes more than two thousand > French citizens. > > As our own research has shown?in interviews with youth in Paris, London, > and Barcelona, as well as with captured ISIS fighters in Iraq and Jabhat > an-Nusra (al-Qaeda) fighters from Syria?simply treating the Islamic State > as a form of ?terrorism? or ?violent extremism? masks the menace. > Dismissing the group as ?nihilistic? reflects a dangerous avoidance of > trying to comprehend, and deal with, its profoundly alluring mission to > change and save the world. What many in the international community regard > as acts of senseless, horrific violence are to ISIS?s followers part of an > exalted campaign of purification through sacrificial killing and > self-immolation. This is the purposeful violence that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, > the Islamic State?s self-anointed Caliph, has called ?the volcanoes of > Jihad??creating an international jihadi archipelago that will eventually > unite to destroy the present world to create a new-old world of universal > justice and peace under the Prophet?s banner. > > Indeed, ISIS?s theatrical brutality?whether in the Middle East or now in > Europe?is part of a conscious plan designed to instill among believers a > sense of meaning that is sacred and sublime, while scaring the hell out of > fence-sitters and enemies. This strategy was outlined in the 2004 > manifesto *Idharat > at Tawahoush*(The Management of Savagery), a tract written for ISIS?s > precursor, the Iraqi branch of al-Qaeda;*tawahoush* comes from *wahsh* or > ?beast,? so an animal-like state. Here are some of its main axioms: > > Diversify and widen the vexation strikes against the Crusader-Zionist enemy > in every place in the Islamic world, and even outside of it if possible, so > as to disperse the efforts of the alliance of the enemy and thus drain it > to the greatest extent possible. > > To be effective, attacks should be launched against soft targets that > cannot possibly be defended to any appreciable degree, leading to a > debilitating security state: > > If a tourist resort that the Crusaders patronize?is hit, all of the tourist > resorts in all of the states of the world will have to be secured by the > work of additional forces, which are double the ordinary amount, and a huge > increase in spending. > > Crucially, these tactics are also designed to appeal to disaffected young > who tend to rebel against authority, are eager for for self-sacrifice, and > are filled with energy and idealism that calls for ?moderation? ( > *wasatiyyah*) only seek to suppress. The aim is > > to motivate crowds drawn from the masses to fly to the regions which we > manage, particularly the youth? [For] the youth of the nation are closer to > the innate nature [of humans] on account of the rebelliousness within them. > > Finally, these violent attacks should be used to draw the West as deeply > and actively as possible into military conflict: > > Work to expose the weakness of America?s centralized power by pushing it to > abandon the media psychological war and war by proxy until it fights > directly. > > Eleven years later, ISIS is using this approach against America?s most > important allies in Europe. For ISIS, causing chaos in France has special > impetus. The first major military push by the Islamic State Caliphate in > the summer of 2014 was to obliterate the international border between Syria > and Iraq?a symbol of the arbitrary division of the Arab and Muslim world > imposed by France and Great Britain after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, > seat of the last Muslim Caliphate. And because the lights of Paris > epitomize cultural secularism for the world and thus ?ignorance of divine > guidance? (*jahiliyyah*), they must be extinguished until rekindled by > God?s divine radiance (*an-Noor*). > > The fact that The EU?s replacement rate is 1.59 children per couple and the > continent needs substantial levels of immigration to maintain a productive > workforce?at a time where there is a refugee crisis and amid greater > hostility to immigrants than ever?is another form of chaos the Islamic > State is well-positioned to exploit. French authorities have found the > passport, possibly doctored, of one Syrian national associated with the > Paris attacks, as well as two fake Turkish passports, indicating that ISIS > is taking advantage of Europe?s refugee crisis, and encouraging hostility > and suspicion toward those legitimately seeking refuge in order to further > drive a wedge between Muslims and European non-Muslims. > > Today, France has one of the largest Muslim minorities in Europe. French > Muslims are also predominantly a social underclass, a legacy of France?s > colonial past and indifference to its aftermath. For example, although just > 7 to 8 percent of France?s population is Muslim, as much as 70 percent of > the prison population is Muslim, a situation that has left a very large > number of young French Muslims vulnerable to absorbing radical ideas in > prison and out. Within this social landscape, ISIS finds success. France > has contributed more foreign fighters to ISIS than any other Western > country. > > One attacker at the Bataclan concert hall, where the highest number of > people were killed, was twenty-nine-year-old Isma?l Omar Mostefa?, a French > citizen of Algerian and Portuguese origin from the Paris area. He had a > criminal record and had traveled to Syria for a few months between 2013 and > 2014?a profile similar the two Kouachi brothers, also French nationals of > Algerian origin living in Paris proper, who had trained with al-Qaeda?s > affiliate in Yemen before carrying out the *Charlie Hebdo* attacks in Paris > in January. > > Other presumed plotters of Friday?s attacks include two brothers, Salah > Abdeslam Salah, twenty-six, who remains at large, and his brother Ibrahim, > thirty-one, who detonated a suicide bomb near the Stade de France soccer > stadium. Although French citizens, the Abdeslam brothers had been living in > Molenbeek, a poor Brussels barrio populated by Arab immigrants. In the last > year, weapons from that neighborhood have been linked to Parisian-born > Amedy Coulilaby, a thirty-three-year-old of Malian descent who had been a > jail buddy of one of the Kouachi brothers and who carried out the lethal > January attack on a Kosher supermarket in Paris; and Mehdi Nemmouche, > twenty-nine, a French national of Algerian origin who spent a over a year > with ISIS in Syria and was responsible for the deadly shootings at the > Jewish Museum of Belgium. Another of the Paris suicide bombers, > twenty-year-old Bilal Hadfi, was also a French national who fought with the > Islamic State before returning to Belgium, which has the highest per capita > rate of jihadi volunteers from Europe. Two other Belgians, one of whom was > eighteen, were also involved in the Paris attacks, as well as a > twenty-seven-year-old Egyptian, Yousef Salahel. > > As with the 2004 Madrid train bombings and the 2005 London Underground > bombings, what seems to be emerging from the fragmentary reports so far is > that the Paris attacks were carried out by a loose network of family, > friends, and fellow travelers who may have each followed their own, > somewhat independent paths to radical Islam before joining up with ISIS. > But their closely coordinated actions at multiple sites in Paris indicate a > significant degree of training, collective planning, and command and > control by the Islamic State (including via encrypted messages), under the > likely direction of Abdelhamid Abaooud, known as Abu Omar, ?The Belgian,? a > twenty-seven-year-old of Moroccan origin from Molenbeek, who is now in > Syria. > > Such coordination has been facilitated by the very large contingent of > French foreign fighters in Syria. In April, French Senator Jean-Pierre Suer > said > > that > 1,430 men and women from France had made their way to Iraq and Syria, up > from just twenty as of 2012. About 20 percent of these people are converts. > The latest report from West Point?s Center for Combating Terrorism > , > which has detailed records on 182 French fighters, notes that most are in > their twenties. About 25 percent come from the Paris area, with the rest > scattered over smaller regions throughout France. According toFrance?s > Interior Ministry > , > 571 French citizens or residents are presently in Syria and Iraq, some with > al-Qaeda affiliate Jabhat an-Nusra, but most with ISIS. More than 260 > people are known to have returned to France, and more than 2,000 people > from France have been directly implicated in the jihadi pipeline to and > from the region, which extends across Europe: police have already made > arrests in Belgium and Germany related to the Paris attacks, and traced the > entry into Europe of one of the attackers, a Syrian national, through > Greece. > > French counterterrorism surveillance data (FSPRT > ) > has identified 11,400 radical Islamists, 25 percent of whom are women and > 16 percent minors?among the minors, females are in a majority. Legal > proceedings are now underway against 646 people suspected of involvement in > terrorist activity. French Prime Minister Manuel Valls conceded after > Friday?s attacks that even keeping full track of those suspected of being > prone to violent acts is practically impossible: around-the-clock > surveillance of a single individual requires ten to twenty security agents, > of which there are only 6,500 for all of France. > > Nor is it a matter of controlling the flow of people into France. France?s > Center for the Prevention of Sectarian Drift Related to Islam (CPDSI) > estimates that 90 percent of French citizens who have radical Islamist > beliefs have French grandparents and 80 percent come from non-religious > families. In fact, most Europeans who are drawn into jihad are ?born again? > into radical religion by their social peers. In France, and in Europe more > generally, more than three of every four recruits join the Islamic State > together with friends, while only one in five do so with family members and > very few through direct recruitment by strangers. Many of these young > people identify with neither the country their parents come from nor the > country in which they live. Other identities are weak and non-motivating. > One woman in the Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois described her conversion > as being like that of a transgender person who opts out of the gender > assigned at birth: ?I was like a Muslim trapped in a Christian body,? she > said. She believed she was only able to live fully as a Muslim with dignity > in the Islamic State. > > For others who have struggled to find meaning in their lives, ISIS is a > thrilling cause and call to action that promises glory and esteem in the > eyes of friends, and through friends, eternal respect and remembrance in > the wider world that many of them will never live to enjoy. A July 2014 > poll by ICM > > Research > suggested that more than one in four French youth of all creeds between the > ages of eighteen and twenty-four have a favorable or very favorable opinion > of ISIS. Even if these estimates are high, in our own interviews with young > people in the vast and soulless housing projects of the Paris banlieues we > found surprisingly wide tolerance or support for ISIS among young people > who want to be rebels with a cause?who want, as they see it, to defend the > oppressed. > > Yet the desire these young people in France express is not to be a ?devout > Muslim? but to become a *mujahid*(?holy warrior?): to take the radical > step, immediately satisfying and life-changing, to obtain meaning through > self-sacrifice. Although feelings of marginalization and outrage may build > over a long time, the transition from struggling identity to *mujahid* is > often fast and furious. The death of six of the eight Paris attackers by > suicide bombs and one in a hail of police bullets testifies to the > sincerity of this commitment, as do the hundreds of French volunteer deaths > in Syria and Iraq. > > As one twenty-four-year-old who joined Jabhat an-Nusra in Syria told us: > > They [Western society] teach us to work hard to buy a nice car and nice > clothes but that isn?t happiness. I was a third-class human because I > wasn?t integrated into a corrupted system. But I didn?t want to be a street > gangster. So, I and my friends simply decided to go around and invite > people to join Islam. The other Muslim groups in the city just talk. They > think a true Muslim state will just rain from heaven on them without > fighting and striving hard on the path of Allah. > > French converts from families of Christian origin are often the most > vociferous defenders of the Islamic State. There?s something about joining > someone else?s fight that makes one fierce. When we asked a former body > builder from Epinay-sur-Seine, a northern suburb of Paris, why he converted > to Islam he said that he had been in and out of jail, constantly getting > into trouble. ?I was a mess, with nothing to me, until the idea of > following the *mujahid*?s way gave me rules to live by?: to channel his > energy into jihad and defend his Muslim brethren under attack from infidels > in France and everywhere, ?from Palestine to Burma.? > > Because many foreign volunteers are marginal in their host countries, a > pervasive belief among Western governments and NGOs is that offering > would-be enlistees jobs or spouses or access to education could reduce > violence and counter the Caliphate?s pull. But a still unpublished report > by the World Bank shows no reliable relationship between increasing > employment and reducing violence, suggesting that people with such > opportunities are just as likely to be susceptible to jihadism. When I > asked one World Bank representative why this was not published, he > responded, ?Our clients [that is, governments] wouldn?t like it because > they?ve got too much invested in the idea.? > > As research has shown with those who joined al-Qaeda, prior marriage does > not seem to be a deterrent to those now volunteering for ISIS; and among > the senior ranks of such groups, there are many who have had access to > considerable education?especially in scientific fields such as engineering > and medicine that require great discipline and a willingness to delay > gratification. If people are ready to sacrifice their lives, then it is not > likely that offers of greater material advantages will stop them. (In fact, > our research shows that material incentives, or disincentives, often > backfire and increase > commitment > by devoted actors). > > In its feckless ?Think Again Turn Away? social media program, the US State > Department has tried to dissuade youth with mostly negative anonymous > messaging. ?So DAESH wants to build a future, well is beheading a future > you want, or someone controlling details of your diet and dress?? Can > anyone not know that already? Does it really matter to those drawn to the > cause despite, or even because of, such things? As one teenage girl from a > Chicago suburb retorted to FBI agents who stopped her from flying to Syria: > ?Well, what about the barrel bombings that kill thousands? Maybe if the > beheading helps to stop that.? And for some, strict obedience provides > freedom from uncertainty about what a good person is to do. > > By contrast, the Islamic State may spend hundreds of hours trying to enlist > single individuals and groups of friends, empathizing instead of lecturing, > to learn how to turn their personal frustrations and grievances into a > universal theme of persecution against all Muslims, and thus translate > anger and frustrated aspiration into moral outrage. From Syria, a young > woman messages another: > > I know how hard it is to leave behind the mother and father you love, and > not tell them until you are here, that you will always love them but that > you were put on this earth to do more than be with or honor your parents. I > know this will probably be the hardest thing you may ever have to do, but > let me help you explain it to yourself and to them. > > And any serious engagement must be attuned to individuals and their > networks, not to mass marketing of repetitive messages. Young people > empathize with each other; they generally don?t lecture at one another. > There are nearly fifty thousand Twitter accounts supporting ISIS, with an > average of some one thousand followers each. > > In Amman last month, a former imam from the Islamic State told us: > > The young who came to us were not to be lectured at like witless children; > they are for the most part understanding and compassionate, but misguided. > We have to give them a better message, but a positive one to compete. > Otherwise, they will be lost to Daesh. > > Some officials speaking for Western governments at the East Asia summit in > Singapore last April argued that the Caliphate is traditional power > politics masquerading as mythology. Research on those drawn to the cause > show that this is a dangerous misconception. The Caliphate has re-emerged > as a seductive mobilizing cause in the minds of many Muslims, from the > Levant to Western Europe. As one imam in Barcelona involved in interfaith > dialogue with Christians and Jews told us: ?I am against the violence of > al-Qaeda and ISIS, but they have put our predicament in Europe and > elsewhere on the map. Before, we were just ignored. And the Caliphate?. We > dream of it like the Jews long dreamed of Zion. Maybe it can be a > federation, like the European Union, of Muslim peoples. The Caliphate is > here, in our hearts, even if we don?t know what real form it will finally > take.? > > France, the United States, and our allies may opt for force of arms, with > all of the unforeseen and unintended consequences that are likely to result > from all-out war. But even if ISIS is destroyed, its message could still > captivate many in coming generations. Until we recognize the passions this > message is capable of stirring up among disaffected youth around the world, > we risk strengthening them and contributing to the chaos that ISIS > cherishes. > > November 16, 2015, 10:30 a.m. > > http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2015/nov/16/paris-attacks-isis-strategy-chaos/ > > > > > From smago@uga.edu Tue Nov 17 03:11:47 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 11:11:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Paris and the Islamic State In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Mike. I came across the following this morning. I think it's important reading, in that it wonders why horrific events in Paris, which happen constantly in Baghdad and elsewhere in the Middle East, get worldwide sorrow and sympathy while Muslim communities attacked daily get little press or compassion at all. As world mourns Paris, many in Mideast see double-standard By SUSANNAH GEORGEASSOCIATED PRESS ? published Monday, November 16, 20150 comments BAGHDAD | Within hours of last week's Paris attacks, as outrage and sympathy flooded his social media feeds and filled the airwaves, Baghdad resident Ali al-Makhzomy updated his Facebook cover photo to read "solidarity" ? and his friends were shocked. "Everyone was like why are you posting about Paris and not about the attacks in Baghdad every day," the recent law school graduate said. "A lot of my friends said, 'OK, so you care more about them than you care about us?'" He had unintentionally tapped into frustration in Iraq, Lebanon and Syria with what many see as a double-standard: The world unites in outrage and sympathy when the Islamic State group kills Westerners, but pays little attention to the near-daily atrocities it carries out in the Middle East. The day before the Paris attacks, twin suicide bombers struck a southern Beirut suburb, killing at least 43 people, and on Friday a suicide bomber struck a funeral in Iraq, killing at least 21. Both attacks were claimed by the IS group and reported by major media outlets, but generated little interest outside the region, where the turmoil of recent years has made such events seem like a sadly regular occurrence. Baghdad has seen near-daily attacks in recent years, mainly targeting the security forces and the country's Shiite majority. Bombings killed an average of more than 90 civilians a month last year, according to Iraq Body Count, a U.K.-based group that documents civilian deaths in Iraq. The civil war in neighboring Syria has killed 250,000 people since 2011. There, government warplanes regularly carry out raids using so-called barrel bombs that demolish entire apartment blocks and insurgent groups shell government-held neighborhoods. Lebanon, however, had been relatively calm for the past year, leading many to feel that last week's tragedy was unfairly neglected. Many were angered by Facebook's deployment of a new feature in the wake of the Paris attacks that allowed users to check in and say they were safe. The feature was not available for the Beirut attacks. "'We' don't get a safe button on Facebook," Lebanese blogger Joey Ayoub wrote. "'We' don't get late night statements from the most powerful men and women alive and millions of online users." Facebook released a statement saying it had previously only used the Safety Check feature after natural disasters and said it would be used for "other serious and tragic incidents in the future." But it added that "during an ongoing crisis, like war or epidemic, Safety Check in its current form is not that useful for people: because there isn't a clear start or end point and, unfortunately, it's impossible to know when someone is truly 'safe.'" Al-Makhzomy said the feature wouldn't be quite as useful in Iraq. "In Baghdad it's not just like one attack," he said. "You would need to have a date on the safety check, like I'm safe from this one or that one. ... There are too many for just 'I'm Safe.'" In the U.S., social media shaming also played out on Facebook, Twitter and other channels in the aftermath of Paris over the use of a tool that shades profile photos to resemble the French flag. Other social media users object to a sea of vacation selfies at the Eiffel Tower being posted as a show of solidarity and an expression of "slacktivism," rather than true social justice commitment. "What happened in Paris is awful and my thoughts are with the families affected as well as our global leaders as they figure out what to do," said 33-year-old Jim Brown, a former U.S. Marine who lives in Fishers, Indiana. "That said, changing my avatar to the colors of the French flag is just an easy way for me feel like I did something while sitting on my butt in my suburban American home." Rosina Motta, 40, grew up near El Monte, California, where one of the Paris victims, 23-year-old Nohemi Gonzalez, lived. "I wanted to express myself but didn't want to have to delve into this long Facebook post like other people were doing, so I waited a couple of days and changed by Facebook profile picture using the flag tool," Motta said. The reaction from a couple friends was swift, including a fellow woman of color. "I was questioned by a couple of people why I wasn't posting about Beirut and Lebanon," said Motta, who lives in San Bernardino, about 50 miles (80 kilometers) east of Los Angeles. She was declared a "media sympathizer" for failing to name the local student whose death had moved her and not sharing the student's photo. The identity had not yet been formally released by officials, Motta said. "Some comments were race-related and called me out for defending the media when it took time for them to release her name. She is of Latin/Hispanic heritage and it became a 'brown' issue," said Motta, who is of Mexican heritage. "It is beyond ridiculous." Kelly Hayes, 34, is an activist of color in Chicago and a community engagement fellow for the progressive nonprofit Truth-out.org. She has received attention online in the aftermath of the Paris attacks for a Nov. 14 post on her year-old blog, Transformativespaces.org, urging an end to the "grief shaming" that is playing out on social media, as it has after other tragedies. Under the headline, "On the Violence in Paris: Stop the Grief Shaming," Hayes wrote that the issues of racism, uneven media coverage and the "seeming constancy of some violence" will not be overcome by "judgment or snark" on Facebook, Twitter and other online channels. "Moments of great empathy are not a social failing. If anything, they are an opportunity to build better and expand our collective compassion. Posts that more or less amount to, 'if you care about this, but didn't post about (insert tragedy here), I'm judging you' help nothing and heal nothing," Hayes wrote. For her trouble, she has received about 60,000 views and some backlash of her own. Does she think social media makes it too easy to over-simplify outrage and grief? "The last thing I would want to do is invalidate the feelings behind people expressing frustration, anger, because those come from a very real place," said Hayes, who is Native American. "We all express our grief differently." ___ Associated Press writer Leanne Italie in New York contributed to this report. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 9:29 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Paris and the Islamic State Perhaps of interest. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Scott Atran Date: Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 5:51 PM Subject: Paris and the Islamic State To: COG-SCI-REL-L@jiscmail.ac.uk Dear Colleagues FYI [image: Inline image 1] *Paris: The War ISIS Wants* *Scott Atran and Nafees Hamid * The shock produced by the multiple coordinated attacks in Paris on Friday?the scenes of indiscriminate bloodshed and terror on the streets, the outrage against Islamic extremism among the public, French President Francois Holland?s vow to be ?merciless? in the fight against the ?barbarians of the Islamic State??is, unfortunately, precisely what ISIS intended. For the greater the hostility toward Muslims in Europe and the deeper the West becomes involved in military action in the Middle East, the closer ISIS comes to its goal of creating and managing chaos. This is a strategy that has enabled it to confound far superior international forces, while enhancing its legitimacy in the eyes of its followers. The complexity of the French plot also suggests how successful ISIS has been at cultivating sources of support within the native populations of secular Western countries. Attacking ISIS in Syria will not contain this global movement, which now includes more than two thousand French citizens. As our own research has shown?in interviews with youth in Paris, London, and Barcelona, as well as with captured ISIS fighters in Iraq and Jabhat an-Nusra (al-Qaeda) fighters from Syria?simply treating the Islamic State as a form of ?terrorism? or ?violent extremism? masks the menace. Dismissing the group as ?nihilistic? reflects a dangerous avoidance of trying to comprehend, and deal with, its profoundly alluring mission to change and save the world. What many in the international community regard as acts of senseless, horrific violence are to ISIS?s followers part of an exalted campaign of purification through sacrificial killing and self-immolation. This is the purposeful violence that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the Islamic State?s self-anointed Caliph, has called ?the volcanoes of Jihad??creating an international jihadi archipelago that will eventually unite to destroy the present world to create a new-old world of universal justice and peace under the Prophet?s banner. Indeed, ISIS?s theatrical brutality?whether in the Middle East or now in Europe?is part of a conscious plan designed to instill among believers a sense of meaning that is sacred and sublime, while scaring the hell out of fence-sitters and enemies. This strategy was outlined in the 2004 manifesto *Idharat at Tawahoush*(The Management of Savagery), a tract written for ISIS?s precursor, the Iraqi branch of al-Qaeda;*tawahoush* comes from *wahsh* or ?beast,? so an animal-like state. Here are some of its main axioms: Diversify and widen the vexation strikes against the Crusader-Zionist enemy in every place in the Islamic world, and even outside of it if possible, so as to disperse the efforts of the alliance of the enemy and thus drain it to the greatest extent possible. To be effective, attacks should be launched against soft targets that cannot possibly be defended to any appreciable degree, leading to a debilitating security state: If a tourist resort that the Crusaders patronize?is hit, all of the tourist resorts in all of the states of the world will have to be secured by the work of additional forces, which are double the ordinary amount, and a huge increase in spending. Crucially, these tactics are also designed to appeal to disaffected young who tend to rebel against authority, are eager for for self-sacrifice, and are filled with energy and idealism that calls for ?moderation? ( *wasatiyyah*) only seek to suppress. The aim is to motivate crowds drawn from the masses to fly to the regions which we manage, particularly the youth? [For] the youth of the nation are closer to the innate nature [of humans] on account of the rebelliousness within them. Finally, these violent attacks should be used to draw the West as deeply and actively as possible into military conflict: Work to expose the weakness of America?s centralized power by pushing it to abandon the media psychological war and war by proxy until it fights directly. Eleven years later, ISIS is using this approach against America?s most important allies in Europe. For ISIS, causing chaos in France has special impetus. The first major military push by the Islamic State Caliphate in the summer of 2014 was to obliterate the international border between Syria and Iraq?a symbol of the arbitrary division of the Arab and Muslim world imposed by France and Great Britain after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, seat of the last Muslim Caliphate. And because the lights of Paris epitomize cultural secularism for the world and thus ?ignorance of divine guidance? (*jahiliyyah*), they must be extinguished until rekindled by God?s divine radiance (*an-Noor*). The fact that The EU?s replacement rate is 1.59 children per couple and the continent needs substantial levels of immigration to maintain a productive workforce?at a time where there is a refugee crisis and amid greater hostility to immigrants than ever?is another form of chaos the Islamic State is well-positioned to exploit. French authorities have found the passport, possibly doctored, of one Syrian national associated with the Paris attacks, as well as two fake Turkish passports, indicating that ISIS is taking advantage of Europe?s refugee crisis, and encouraging hostility and suspicion toward those legitimately seeking refuge in order to further drive a wedge between Muslims and European non-Muslims. Today, France has one of the largest Muslim minorities in Europe. French Muslims are also predominantly a social underclass, a legacy of France?s colonial past and indifference to its aftermath. For example, although just 7 to 8 percent of France?s population is Muslim, as much as 70 percent of the prison population is Muslim, a situation that has left a very large number of young French Muslims vulnerable to absorbing radical ideas in prison and out. Within this social landscape, ISIS finds success. France has contributed more foreign fighters to ISIS than any other Western country. One attacker at the Bataclan concert hall, where the highest number of people were killed, was twenty-nine-year-old Isma?l Omar Mostefa?, a French citizen of Algerian and Portuguese origin from the Paris area. He had a criminal record and had traveled to Syria for a few months between 2013 and 2014?a profile similar the two Kouachi brothers, also French nationals of Algerian origin living in Paris proper, who had trained with al-Qaeda?s affiliate in Yemen before carrying out the *Charlie Hebdo* attacks in Paris in January. Other presumed plotters of Friday?s attacks include two brothers, Salah Abdeslam Salah, twenty-six, who remains at large, and his brother Ibrahim, thirty-one, who detonated a suicide bomb near the Stade de France soccer stadium. Although French citizens, the Abdeslam brothers had been living in Molenbeek, a poor Brussels barrio populated by Arab immigrants. In the last year, weapons from that neighborhood have been linked to Parisian-born Amedy Coulilaby, a thirty-three-year-old of Malian descent who had been a jail buddy of one of the Kouachi brothers and who carried out the lethal January attack on a Kosher supermarket in Paris; and Mehdi Nemmouche, twenty-nine, a French national of Algerian origin who spent a over a year with ISIS in Syria and was responsible for the deadly shootings at the Jewish Museum of Belgium. Another of the Paris suicide bombers, twenty-year-old Bilal Hadfi, was also a French national who fought with the Islamic State before returning to Belgium, which has the highest per capita rate of jihadi volunteers from Europe. Two other Belgians, one of whom was eighteen, were also involved in the Paris attacks, as well as a twenty-seven-year-old Egyptian, Yousef Salahel. As with the 2004 Madrid train bombings and the 2005 London Underground bombings, what seems to be emerging from the fragmentary reports so far is that the Paris attacks were carried out by a loose network of family, friends, and fellow travelers who may have each followed their own, somewhat independent paths to radical Islam before joining up with ISIS. But their closely coordinated actions at multiple sites in Paris indicate a significant degree of training, collective planning, and command and control by the Islamic State (including via encrypted messages), under the likely direction of Abdelhamid Abaooud, known as Abu Omar, ?The Belgian,? a twenty-seven-year-old of Moroccan origin from Molenbeek, who is now in Syria. Such coordination has been facilitated by the very large contingent of French foreign fighters in Syria. In April, French Senator Jean-Pierre Suer said that 1,430 men and women from France had made their way to Iraq and Syria, up from just twenty as of 2012. About 20 percent of these people are converts. The latest report from West Point?s Center for Combating Terrorism , which has detailed records on 182 French fighters, notes that most are in their twenties. About 25 percent come from the Paris area, with the rest scattered over smaller regions throughout France. According toFrance?s Interior Ministry , 571 French citizens or residents are presently in Syria and Iraq, some with al-Qaeda affiliate Jabhat an-Nusra, but most with ISIS. More than 260 people are known to have returned to France, and more than 2,000 people from France have been directly implicated in the jihadi pipeline to and from the region, which extends across Europe: police have already made arrests in Belgium and Germany related to the Paris attacks, and traced the entry into Europe of one of the attackers, a Syrian national, through Greece. French counterterrorism surveillance data (FSPRT ) has identified 11,400 radical Islamists, 25 percent of whom are women and 16 percent minors?among the minors, females are in a majority. Legal proceedings are now underway against 646 people suspected of involvement in terrorist activity. French Prime Minister Manuel Valls conceded after Friday?s attacks that even keeping full track of those suspected of being prone to violent acts is practically impossible: around-the-clock surveillance of a single individual requires ten to twenty security agents, of which there are only 6,500 for all of France. Nor is it a matter of controlling the flow of people into France. France?s Center for the Prevention of Sectarian Drift Related to Islam (CPDSI) estimates that 90 percent of French citizens who have radical Islamist beliefs have French grandparents and 80 percent come from non-religious families. In fact, most Europeans who are drawn into jihad are ?born again? into radical religion by their social peers. In France, and in Europe more generally, more than three of every four recruits join the Islamic State together with friends, while only one in five do so with family members and very few through direct recruitment by strangers. Many of these young people identify with neither the country their parents come from nor the country in which they live. Other identities are weak and non-motivating. One woman in the Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois described her conversion as being like that of a transgender person who opts out of the gender assigned at birth: ?I was like a Muslim trapped in a Christian body,? she said. She believed she was only able to live fully as a Muslim with dignity in the Islamic State. For others who have struggled to find meaning in their lives, ISIS is a thrilling cause and call to action that promises glory and esteem in the eyes of friends, and through friends, eternal respect and remembrance in the wider world that many of them will never live to enjoy. A July 2014 poll by ICM Research suggested that more than one in four French youth of all creeds between the ages of eighteen and twenty-four have a favorable or very favorable opinion of ISIS. Even if these estimates are high, in our own interviews with young people in the vast and soulless housing projects of the Paris banlieues we found surprisingly wide tolerance or support for ISIS among young people who want to be rebels with a cause?who want, as they see it, to defend the oppressed. Yet the desire these young people in France express is not to be a ?devout Muslim? but to become a *mujahid*(?holy warrior?): to take the radical step, immediately satisfying and life-changing, to obtain meaning through self-sacrifice. Although feelings of marginalization and outrage may build over a long time, the transition from struggling identity to *mujahid* is often fast and furious. The death of six of the eight Paris attackers by suicide bombs and one in a hail of police bullets testifies to the sincerity of this commitment, as do the hundreds of French volunteer deaths in Syria and Iraq. As one twenty-four-year-old who joined Jabhat an-Nusra in Syria told us: They [Western society] teach us to work hard to buy a nice car and nice clothes but that isn?t happiness. I was a third-class human because I wasn?t integrated into a corrupted system. But I didn?t want to be a street gangster. So, I and my friends simply decided to go around and invite people to join Islam. The other Muslim groups in the city just talk. They think a true Muslim state will just rain from heaven on them without fighting and striving hard on the path of Allah. French converts from families of Christian origin are often the most vociferous defenders of the Islamic State. There?s something about joining someone else?s fight that makes one fierce. When we asked a former body builder from Epinay-sur-Seine, a northern suburb of Paris, why he converted to Islam he said that he had been in and out of jail, constantly getting into trouble. ?I was a mess, with nothing to me, until the idea of following the *mujahid*?s way gave me rules to live by?: to channel his energy into jihad and defend his Muslim brethren under attack from infidels in France and everywhere, ?from Palestine to Burma.? Because many foreign volunteers are marginal in their host countries, a pervasive belief among Western governments and NGOs is that offering would-be enlistees jobs or spouses or access to education could reduce violence and counter the Caliphate?s pull. But a still unpublished report by the World Bank shows no reliable relationship between increasing employment and reducing violence, suggesting that people with such opportunities are just as likely to be susceptible to jihadism. When I asked one World Bank representative why this was not published, he responded, ?Our clients [that is, governments] wouldn?t like it because they?ve got too much invested in the idea.? As research has shown with those who joined al-Qaeda, prior marriage does not seem to be a deterrent to those now volunteering for ISIS; and among the senior ranks of such groups, there are many who have had access to considerable education?especially in scientific fields such as engineering and medicine that require great discipline and a willingness to delay gratification. If people are ready to sacrifice their lives, then it is not likely that offers of greater material advantages will stop them. (In fact, our research shows that material incentives, or disincentives, often backfire and increase commitment by devoted actors). In its feckless ?Think Again Turn Away? social media program, the US State Department has tried to dissuade youth with mostly negative anonymous messaging. ?So DAESH wants to build a future, well is beheading a future you want, or someone controlling details of your diet and dress?? Can anyone not know that already? Does it really matter to those drawn to the cause despite, or even because of, such things? As one teenage girl from a Chicago suburb retorted to FBI agents who stopped her from flying to Syria: ?Well, what about the barrel bombings that kill thousands? Maybe if the beheading helps to stop that.? And for some, strict obedience provides freedom from uncertainty about what a good person is to do. By contrast, the Islamic State may spend hundreds of hours trying to enlist single individuals and groups of friends, empathizing instead of lecturing, to learn how to turn their personal frustrations and grievances into a universal theme of persecution against all Muslims, and thus translate anger and frustrated aspiration into moral outrage. From Syria, a young woman messages another: I know how hard it is to leave behind the mother and father you love, and not tell them until you are here, that you will always love them but that you were put on this earth to do more than be with or honor your parents. I know this will probably be the hardest thing you may ever have to do, but let me help you explain it to yourself and to them. And any serious engagement must be attuned to individuals and their networks, not to mass marketing of repetitive messages. Young people empathize with each other; they generally don?t lecture at one another. There are nearly fifty thousand Twitter accounts supporting ISIS, with an average of some one thousand followers each. In Amman last month, a former imam from the Islamic State told us: The young who came to us were not to be lectured at like witless children; they are for the most part understanding and compassionate, but misguided. We have to give them a better message, but a positive one to compete. Otherwise, they will be lost to Daesh. Some officials speaking for Western governments at the East Asia summit in Singapore last April argued that the Caliphate is traditional power politics masquerading as mythology. Research on those drawn to the cause show that this is a dangerous misconception. The Caliphate has re-emerged as a seductive mobilizing cause in the minds of many Muslims, from the Levant to Western Europe. As one imam in Barcelona involved in interfaith dialogue with Christians and Jews told us: ?I am against the violence of al-Qaeda and ISIS, but they have put our predicament in Europe and elsewhere on the map. Before, we were just ignored. And the Caliphate?. We dream of it like the Jews long dreamed of Zion. Maybe it can be a federation, like the European Union, of Muslim peoples. The Caliphate is here, in our hearts, even if we don?t know what real form it will finally take.? France, the United States, and our allies may opt for force of arms, with all of the unforeseen and unintended consequences that are likely to result from all-out war. But even if ISIS is destroyed, its message could still captivate many in coming generations. Until we recognize the passions this message is capable of stirring up among disaffected youth around the world, we risk strengthening them and contributing to the chaos that ISIS cherishes. November 16, 2015, 10:30 a.m. http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2015/nov/16/paris-attacks-isis-strategy-chaos/ -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Nov 17 14:32:07 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:32:07 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Paris and the Islamic State In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Part of the same mindset, Peter. Very discouraging. mike On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 3:11 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Thanks Mike. I came across the following this morning. I think it's > important reading, in that it wonders why horrific events in Paris, which > happen constantly in Baghdad and elsewhere in the Middle East, get > worldwide sorrow and sympathy while Muslim communities attacked daily get > little press or compassion at all. > > As world mourns Paris, many in Mideast see double-standard > By SUSANNAH GEORGEASSOCIATED PRESS ? published Monday, November 16, 20150 > comments > BAGHDAD | Within hours of last week's Paris attacks, as outrage and > sympathy flooded his social media feeds and filled the airwaves, Baghdad > resident Ali al-Makhzomy updated his Facebook cover photo to read > "solidarity" ? and his friends were shocked. > "Everyone was like why are you posting about Paris and not about the > attacks in Baghdad every day," the recent law school graduate said. "A lot > of my friends said, 'OK, so you care more about them than you care about > us?'" > He had unintentionally tapped into frustration in Iraq, Lebanon and Syria > with what many see as a double-standard: The world unites in outrage and > sympathy when the Islamic State group kills Westerners, but pays little > attention to the near-daily atrocities it carries out in the Middle East. > The day before the Paris attacks, twin suicide bombers struck a southern > Beirut suburb, killing at least 43 people, and on Friday a suicide bomber > struck a funeral in Iraq, killing at least 21. Both attacks were claimed by > the IS group and reported by major media outlets, but generated little > interest outside the region, where the turmoil of recent years has made > such events seem like a sadly regular occurrence. > Baghdad has seen near-daily attacks in recent years, mainly targeting the > security forces and the country's Shiite majority. Bombings killed an > average of more than 90 civilians a month last year, according to Iraq Body > Count, a U.K.-based group that documents civilian deaths in Iraq. > The civil war in neighboring Syria has killed 250,000 people since 2011. > There, government warplanes regularly carry out raids using so-called > barrel bombs that demolish entire apartment blocks and insurgent groups > shell government-held neighborhoods. > Lebanon, however, had been relatively calm for the past year, leading many > to feel that last week's tragedy was unfairly neglected. Many were angered > by Facebook's deployment of a new feature in the wake of the Paris attacks > that allowed users to check in and say they were safe. The feature was not > available for the Beirut attacks. > "'We' don't get a safe button on Facebook," Lebanese blogger Joey Ayoub > wrote. "'We' don't get late night statements from the most powerful men and > women alive and millions of online users." > Facebook released a statement saying it had previously only used the > Safety Check feature after natural disasters and said it would be used for > "other serious and tragic incidents in the future." > But it added that "during an ongoing crisis, like war or epidemic, Safety > Check in its current form is not that useful for people: because there > isn't a clear start or end point and, unfortunately, it's impossible to > know when someone is truly 'safe.'" > Al-Makhzomy said the feature wouldn't be quite as useful in Iraq. > "In Baghdad it's not just like one attack," he said. "You would need to > have a date on the safety check, like I'm safe from this one or that one. > ... There are too many for just 'I'm Safe.'" > In the U.S., social media shaming also played out on Facebook, Twitter and > other channels in the aftermath of Paris over the use of a tool that shades > profile photos to resemble the French flag. Other social media users object > to a sea of vacation selfies at the Eiffel Tower being posted as a show of > solidarity and an expression of "slacktivism," rather than true social > justice commitment. > "What happened in Paris is awful and my thoughts are with the families > affected as well as our global leaders as they figure out what to do," said > 33-year-old Jim Brown, a former U.S. Marine who lives in Fishers, Indiana. > "That said, changing my avatar to the colors of the French flag is just an > easy way for me feel like I did something while sitting on my butt in my > suburban American home." > Rosina Motta, 40, grew up near El Monte, California, where one of the > Paris victims, 23-year-old Nohemi Gonzalez, lived. > "I wanted to express myself but didn't want to have to delve into this > long Facebook post like other people were doing, so I waited a couple of > days and changed by Facebook profile picture using the flag tool," Motta > said. > The reaction from a couple friends was swift, including a fellow woman of > color. > "I was questioned by a couple of people why I wasn't posting about Beirut > and Lebanon," said Motta, who lives in San Bernardino, about 50 miles (80 > kilometers) east of Los Angeles. > She was declared a "media sympathizer" for failing to name the local > student whose death had moved her and not sharing the student's photo. The > identity had not yet been formally released by officials, Motta said. > "Some comments were race-related and called me out for defending the media > when it took time for them to release her name. She is of Latin/Hispanic > heritage and it became a 'brown' issue," said Motta, who is of Mexican > heritage. "It is beyond ridiculous." > Kelly Hayes, 34, is an activist of color in Chicago and a community > engagement fellow for the progressive nonprofit Truth-out.org. She has > received attention online in the aftermath of the Paris attacks for a Nov. > 14 post on her year-old blog, Transformativespaces.org, urging an end to > the "grief shaming" that is playing out on social media, as it has after > other tragedies. > Under the headline, "On the Violence in Paris: Stop the Grief Shaming," > Hayes wrote that the issues of racism, uneven media coverage and the > "seeming constancy of some violence" will not be overcome by "judgment or > snark" on Facebook, Twitter and other online channels. > "Moments of great empathy are not a social failing. If anything, they are > an opportunity to build better and expand our collective compassion. Posts > that more or less amount to, 'if you care about this, but didn't post about > (insert tragedy here), I'm judging you' help nothing and heal nothing," > Hayes wrote. > For her trouble, she has received about 60,000 views and some backlash of > her own. Does she think social media makes it too easy to over-simplify > outrage and grief? > "The last thing I would want to do is invalidate the feelings behind > people expressing frustration, anger, because those come from a very real > place," said Hayes, who is Native American. "We all express our grief > differently." > ___ > Associated Press writer Leanne Italie in New York contributed to this > report. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 9:29 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Paris and the Islamic State > > Perhaps of interest. > mike > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Scott Atran > Date: Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 5:51 PM > Subject: Paris and the Islamic State > To: COG-SCI-REL-L@jiscmail.ac.uk > > > Dear Colleagues > > FYI > > [image: Inline image 1] > > *Paris: The War ISIS Wants* > > *Scott Atran > and > Nafees Hamid < > http://www.nybooks.com/contributors/nafees-hamid/?tab=tab-blog>* > > > The shock produced by the multiple coordinated attacks in Paris on > Friday?the scenes of indiscriminate bloodshed and terror on the streets, > the outrage against Islamic extremism among the public, French President > Francois Holland?s vow to be ?merciless? in the fight against the > ?barbarians of the Islamic State??is, unfortunately, precisely what ISIS > intended. For the greater the hostility toward Muslims in Europe and the > deeper the West becomes involved in military action in the Middle East, the > closer ISIS comes to its goal of creating and managing chaos. > > This is a strategy that has enabled it to confound far superior > international forces, while enhancing its legitimacy in the eyes of its > followers. The complexity of the French plot also suggests how successful > ISIS has been at cultivating sources of support within the native > populations of secular Western countries. Attacking ISIS in Syria will not > contain this global movement, which now includes more than two thousand > French citizens. > > As our own research has shown?in interviews with youth in Paris, London, > and Barcelona, as well as with captured ISIS fighters in Iraq and Jabhat > an-Nusra (al-Qaeda) fighters from Syria?simply treating the Islamic State > as a form of ?terrorism? or ?violent extremism? masks the menace. > Dismissing the group as ?nihilistic? reflects a dangerous avoidance of > trying to comprehend, and deal with, its profoundly alluring mission to > change and save the world. What many in the international community regard > as acts of senseless, horrific violence are to ISIS?s followers part of an > exalted campaign of purification through sacrificial killing and > self-immolation. This is the purposeful violence that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, > the Islamic State?s self-anointed Caliph, has called ?the volcanoes of > Jihad??creating an international jihadi archipelago that will eventually > unite to destroy the present world to create a new-old world of universal > justice and peace under the Prophet?s banner. > > Indeed, ISIS?s theatrical brutality?whether in the Middle East or now in > Europe?is part of a conscious plan designed to instill among believers a > sense of meaning that is sacred and sublime, while scaring the hell out of > fence-sitters and enemies. This strategy was outlined in the 2004 manifesto > *Idharat at Tawahoush*(The Management of Savagery), a tract written for > ISIS?s precursor, the Iraqi branch of al-Qaeda;*tawahoush* comes from > *wahsh* or ?beast,? so an animal-like state. Here are some of its main > axioms: > > Diversify and widen the vexation strikes against the Crusader-Zionist > enemy in every place in the Islamic world, and even outside of it if > possible, so as to disperse the efforts of the alliance of the enemy and > thus drain it to the greatest extent possible. > > To be effective, attacks should be launched against soft targets that > cannot possibly be defended to any appreciable degree, leading to a > debilitating security state: > > If a tourist resort that the Crusaders patronize?is hit, all of the > tourist resorts in all of the states of the world will have to be secured > by the work of additional forces, which are double the ordinary amount, and > a huge increase in spending. > > Crucially, these tactics are also designed to appeal to disaffected young > who tend to rebel against authority, are eager for for self-sacrifice, and > are filled with energy and idealism that calls for ?moderation? ( > *wasatiyyah*) only seek to suppress. The aim is > > to motivate crowds drawn from the masses to fly to the regions which we > manage, particularly the youth? [For] the youth of the nation are closer to > the innate nature [of humans] on account of the rebelliousness within them. > > Finally, these violent attacks should be used to draw the West as deeply > and actively as possible into military conflict: > > Work to expose the weakness of America?s centralized power by pushing it > to abandon the media psychological war and war by proxy until it fights > directly. > > Eleven years later, ISIS is using this approach against America?s most > important allies in Europe. For ISIS, causing chaos in France has special > impetus. The first major military push by the Islamic State Caliphate in > the summer of 2014 was to obliterate the international border between Syria > and Iraq?a symbol of the arbitrary division of the Arab and Muslim world > imposed by France and Great Britain after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, > seat of the last Muslim Caliphate. And because the lights of Paris > epitomize cultural secularism for the world and thus ?ignorance of divine > guidance? (*jahiliyyah*), they must be extinguished until rekindled by > God?s divine radiance (*an-Noor*). > > The fact that The EU?s replacement rate is 1.59 children per couple and > the continent needs substantial levels of immigration to maintain a > productive workforce?at a time where there is a refugee crisis and amid > greater hostility to immigrants than ever?is another form of chaos the > Islamic State is well-positioned to exploit. French authorities have found > the passport, possibly doctored, of one Syrian national associated with the > Paris attacks, as well as two fake Turkish passports, indicating that ISIS > is taking advantage of Europe?s refugee crisis, and encouraging hostility > and suspicion toward those legitimately seeking refuge in order to further > drive a wedge between Muslims and European non-Muslims. > > Today, France has one of the largest Muslim minorities in Europe. French > Muslims are also predominantly a social underclass, a legacy of France?s > colonial past and indifference to its aftermath. For example, although just > 7 to 8 percent of France?s population is Muslim, as much as 70 percent of > the prison population is Muslim, a situation that has left a very large > number of young French Muslims vulnerable to absorbing radical ideas in > prison and out. Within this social landscape, ISIS finds success. France > has contributed more foreign fighters to ISIS than any other Western > country. > > One attacker at the Bataclan concert hall, where the highest number of > people were killed, was twenty-nine-year-old Isma?l Omar Mostefa?, a French > citizen of Algerian and Portuguese origin from the Paris area. He had a > criminal record and had traveled to Syria for a few months between 2013 and > 2014?a profile similar the two Kouachi brothers, also French nationals of > Algerian origin living in Paris proper, who had trained with al-Qaeda?s > affiliate in Yemen before carrying out the *Charlie Hebdo* attacks in Paris > in January. > > Other presumed plotters of Friday?s attacks include two brothers, Salah > Abdeslam Salah, twenty-six, who remains at large, and his brother Ibrahim, > thirty-one, who detonated a suicide bomb near the Stade de France soccer > stadium. Although French citizens, the Abdeslam brothers had been living in > Molenbeek, a poor Brussels barrio populated by Arab immigrants. In the last > year, weapons from that neighborhood have been linked to Parisian-born > Amedy Coulilaby, a thirty-three-year-old of Malian descent who had been a > jail buddy of one of the Kouachi brothers and who carried out the lethal > January attack on a Kosher supermarket in Paris; and Mehdi Nemmouche, > twenty-nine, a French national of Algerian origin who spent a over a year > with ISIS in Syria and was responsible for the deadly shootings at the > Jewish Museum of Belgium. Another of the Paris suicide bombers, > twenty-year-old Bilal Hadfi, was also a French national who fought with the > Islamic State before returning to Belgium, which has the highest per capita > rate of jihadi volunteers from Europe. Two other Belgians, one of whom was > eighteen, were also involved in the Paris attacks, as well as a > twenty-seven-year-old Egyptian, Yousef Salahel. > > As with the 2004 Madrid train bombings and the 2005 London Underground > bombings, what seems to be emerging from the fragmentary reports so far is > that the Paris attacks were carried out by a loose network of family, > friends, and fellow travelers who may have each followed their own, > somewhat independent paths to radical Islam before joining up with ISIS. > But their closely coordinated actions at multiple sites in Paris indicate > a significant degree of training, collective planning, and command and > control by the Islamic State (including via encrypted messages), under the > likely direction of Abdelhamid Abaooud, known as Abu Omar, ?The Belgian,? a > twenty-seven-year-old of Moroccan origin from Molenbeek, who is now in > Syria. > > Such coordination has been facilitated by the very large contingent of > French foreign fighters in Syria. In April, French Senator Jean-Pierre Suer > said < > http://news.yahoo.com/nearly-half-european-jihadists-syria-iraq-french-report-175845419.html > > > that > 1,430 men and women from France had made their way to Iraq and Syria, up > from just twenty as of 2012. About 20 percent of these people are converts. > The latest report from West Point?s Center for Combating Terrorism < > https://www.ctc.usma.edu/posts/ctc-perspectives-the-french-foreign-fighter-threat-in-context > >, > which has detailed records on 182 French fighters, notes that most are in > their twenties. About 25 percent come from the Paris area, with the rest > scattered over smaller regions throughout France. According toFrance?s > Interior Ministry < > http://api.fidji.lefigaro.fr/media/figaro/orig/2015/11/14/INF06ec3c2e-8adb-11e5-a10a-89234e47f14a-300x640.jpg > >, > 571 French citizens or residents are presently in Syria and Iraq, some > with al-Qaeda affiliate Jabhat an-Nusra, but most with ISIS. More than 260 > people are known to have returned to France, and more than 2,000 people > from France have been directly implicated in the jihadi pipeline to and > from the region, which extends across Europe: police have already made > arrests in Belgium and Germany related to the Paris attacks, and traced the > entry into Europe of one of the attackers, a Syrian national, through > Greece. > > French counterterrorism surveillance data (FSPRT > < > http://www.numerama.com/politique/129033-surveillance-modification-secrete-du-fichier-secret-fsprt.html > >) > has identified 11,400 radical Islamists, 25 percent of whom are women and > 16 percent minors?among the minors, females are in a majority. Legal > proceedings are now underway against 646 people suspected of involvement in > terrorist activity. French Prime Minister Manuel Valls conceded after > Friday?s attacks that even keeping full track of those suspected of being > prone to violent acts is practically impossible: around-the-clock > surveillance of a single individual requires ten to twenty security agents, > of which there are only 6,500 for all of France. > > Nor is it a matter of controlling the flow of people into France. France?s > Center for the Prevention of Sectarian Drift Related to Islam (CPDSI) > estimates that 90 percent of French citizens who have radical Islamist > beliefs have French grandparents and 80 percent come from non-religious > families. In fact, most Europeans who are drawn into jihad are ?born again? > into radical religion by their social peers. In France, and in Europe more > generally, more than three of every four recruits join the Islamic State > together with friends, while only one in five do so with family members and > very few through direct recruitment by strangers. Many of these young > people identify with neither the country their parents come from nor the > country in which they live. Other identities are weak and non-motivating. > One woman in the Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois described her conversion > as being like that of a transgender person who opts out of the gender > assigned at birth: ?I was like a Muslim trapped in a Christian body,? she > said. She believed she was only able to live fully as a Muslim with dignity > in the Islamic State. > > For others who have struggled to find meaning in their lives, ISIS is a > thrilling cause and call to action that promises glory and esteem in the > eyes of friends, and through friends, eternal respect and remembrance in > the wider world that many of them will never live to enjoy. A July 2014 > poll by ICM < > http://www.icmresearch.com/media-centre/press/isis-poll-for-rossiya-segodnya > > > Research > suggested that more than one in four French youth of all creeds between > the ages of eighteen and twenty-four have a favorable or very favorable > opinion of ISIS. Even if these estimates are high, in our own interviews > with young people in the vast and soulless housing projects of the Paris > banlieues we found surprisingly wide tolerance or support for ISIS among > young people who want to be rebels with a cause?who want, as they see it, > to defend the oppressed. > > Yet the desire these young people in France express is not to be a ?devout > Muslim? but to become a *mujahid*(?holy warrior?): to take the radical > step, immediately satisfying and life-changing, to obtain meaning through > self-sacrifice. Although feelings of marginalization and outrage may build > over a long time, the transition from struggling identity to *mujahid* is > often fast and furious. The death of six of the eight Paris attackers by > suicide bombs and one in a hail of police bullets testifies to the > sincerity of this commitment, as do the hundreds of French volunteer deaths > in Syria and Iraq. > > As one twenty-four-year-old who joined Jabhat an-Nusra in Syria told us: > > They [Western society] teach us to work hard to buy a nice car and nice > clothes but that isn?t happiness. I was a third-class human because I > wasn?t integrated into a corrupted system. But I didn?t want to be a street > gangster. So, I and my friends simply decided to go around and invite > people to join Islam. The other Muslim groups in the city just talk. They > think a true Muslim state will just rain from heaven on them without > fighting and striving hard on the path of Allah. > > French converts from families of Christian origin are often the most > vociferous defenders of the Islamic State. There?s something about joining > someone else?s fight that makes one fierce. When we asked a former body > builder from Epinay-sur-Seine, a northern suburb of Paris, why he converted > to Islam he said that he had been in and out of jail, constantly getting > into trouble. ?I was a mess, with nothing to me, until the idea of > following the *mujahid*?s way gave me rules to live by?: to channel his > energy into jihad and defend his Muslim brethren under attack from infidels > in France and everywhere, ?from Palestine to Burma.? > > Because many foreign volunteers are marginal in their host countries, a > pervasive belief among Western governments and NGOs is that offering > would-be enlistees jobs or spouses or access to education could reduce > violence and counter the Caliphate?s pull. But a still unpublished report > by the World Bank shows no reliable relationship between increasing > employment and reducing violence, suggesting that people with such > opportunities are just as likely to be susceptible to jihadism. When I > asked one World Bank representative why this was not published, he > responded, ?Our clients [that is, governments] wouldn?t like it because > they?ve got too much invested in the idea.? > > As research has shown with those who joined al-Qaeda, prior marriage does > not seem to be a deterrent to those now volunteering for ISIS; and among > the senior ranks of such groups, there are many who have had access to > considerable education?especially in scientific fields such as engineering > and medicine that require great discipline and a willingness to delay > gratification. If people are ready to sacrifice their lives, then it is not > likely that offers of greater material advantages will stop them. (In fact, > our research shows that material incentives, or disincentives, often > backfire and increase >commitment > by devoted actors). > > In its feckless ?Think Again Turn Away? social media program, the US State > Department has tried to dissuade youth with mostly negative anonymous > messaging. ?So DAESH wants to build a future, well is beheading a future > you want, or someone controlling details of your diet and dress?? Can > anyone not know that already? Does it really matter to those drawn to the > cause despite, or even because of, such things? As one teenage girl from a > Chicago suburb retorted to FBI agents who stopped her from flying to Syria: > ?Well, what about the barrel bombings that kill thousands? Maybe if the > beheading helps to stop that.? And for some, strict obedience provides > freedom from uncertainty about what a good person is to do. > > By contrast, the Islamic State may spend hundreds of hours trying to > enlist single individuals and groups of friends, empathizing instead of > lecturing, to learn how to turn their personal frustrations and grievances > into a universal theme of persecution against all Muslims, and thus > translate anger and frustrated aspiration into moral outrage. From Syria, a > young woman messages another: > > I know how hard it is to leave behind the mother and father you love, and > not tell them until you are here, that you will always love them but that > you were put on this earth to do more than be with or honor your parents. I > know this will probably be the hardest thing you may ever have to do, but > let me help you explain it to yourself and to them. > > And any serious engagement must be attuned to individuals and their > networks, not to mass marketing of repetitive messages. Young people > empathize with each other; they generally don?t lecture at one another. > There are nearly fifty thousand Twitter accounts supporting ISIS, with an > average of some one thousand followers each. > > In Amman last month, a former imam from the Islamic State told us: > > The young who came to us were not to be lectured at like witless children; > they are for the most part understanding and compassionate, but misguided. > We have to give them a better message, but a positive one to compete. > Otherwise, they will be lost to Daesh. > > Some officials speaking for Western governments at the East Asia summit in > Singapore last April argued that the Caliphate is traditional power > politics masquerading as mythology. Research on those drawn to the cause > show that this is a dangerous misconception. The Caliphate has re-emerged > as a seductive mobilizing cause in the minds of many Muslims, from the > Levant to Western Europe. As one imam in Barcelona involved in interfaith > dialogue with Christians and Jews told us: ?I am against the violence of > al-Qaeda and ISIS, but they have put our predicament in Europe and > elsewhere on the map. Before, we were just ignored. And the Caliphate?. We > dream of it like the Jews long dreamed of Zion. Maybe it can be a > federation, like the European Union, of Muslim peoples. The Caliphate is > here, in our hearts, even if we don?t know what real form it will finally > take.? > > France, the United States, and our allies may opt for force of arms, with > all of the unforeseen and unintended consequences that are likely to result > from all-out war. But even if ISIS is destroyed, its message could still > captivate many in coming generations. Until we recognize the passions this > message is capable of stirring up among disaffected youth around the world, > we risk strengthening them and contributing to the chaos that ISIS > cherishes. > > November 16, 2015, 10:30 a.m. > > > http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2015/nov/16/paris-attacks-isis-strategy-chaos/ > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From Tom.Martin@education.ox.ac.uk Wed Nov 18 10:58:45 2015 From: Tom.Martin@education.ox.ac.uk (Tom Martin) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:58:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Literature review of first-person studies of apprenticeship Message-ID: Dear all, Excuse me if this is question is a little off-topic, but knowing the interests of those reading XMCA, I thought that others might also benefit from this sort of thread. I'm doing a PhD in which I will become an apprentice to study learning in a community of practice/through LPP. There are quite a few other studies like this, the most obvious being those in Michael Coy's 1989 book 'Apprenticeship', along with Trevor Marchand's 'Minaret Building...' (2012), Eugene Cooper's 'Wood-carvers...' (1980), and others. My problem now is that it is difficult to conduct a complete review of studies like these because of the varied language that they use to describe themselves. For example, some describe themselves as ethnography, others as phenomenological inquiry; some describe apprenticeships, while others research very loose communities of skilled practitioners. No combination of search terms (I have tried "first-person", "apprenticeship", "experiential", "ethnography" etc in various combinations) results in convincingly comprehensive results - I am afraid I am missing large swathes of literature. My question is: Is anyone aware of recent edited collections of this type of work, or resources (database thesaurus terms, perhaps?) that would help in the search? I am also considering just 'crowd-sourcing' a list of publications, a strategy that might be of use to others if the list were made public. Curious to hear your thoughts, Tom ? Tom Martin Doctoral Candidate Dept. of Education, Oxford University @MartinCommaTom /MartinCommaTom From smago@uga.edu Wed Nov 18 11:08:39 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:08:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Literature review of first-person studies of apprenticeship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://methodenpool.uni-koeln.de/situierteslernen/Teaching%20As%20Learning.htm might be a start for more foundational work (including the references). -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Tom Martin Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 1:59 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Literature review of first-person studies of apprenticeship Dear all, Excuse me if this is question is a little off-topic, but knowing the interests of those reading XMCA, I thought that others might also benefit from this sort of thread. I'm doing a PhD in which I will become an apprentice to study learning in a community of practice/through LPP. There are quite a few other studies like this, the most obvious being those in Michael Coy's 1989 book 'Apprenticeship', along with Trevor Marchand's 'Minaret Building...' (2012), Eugene Cooper's 'Wood-carvers...' (1980), and others. My problem now is that it is difficult to conduct a complete review of studies like these because of the varied language that they use to describe themselves. For example, some describe themselves as ethnography, others as phenomenological inquiry; some describe apprenticeships, while others research very loose communities of skilled practitioners. No combination of search terms (I have tried "first-person", "apprenticeship", "experiential", "ethnography" etc in various combinations) results in convincingly comprehensive results - I am afraid I am missing large swathes of literature. My question is: Is anyone aware of recent edited collections of this type of work, or resources (database thesaurus terms, perhaps?) that would help in the search? I am also considering just 'crowd-sourcing' a list of publications, a strategy that might be of use to others if the list were made public. Curious to hear your thoughts, Tom ? Tom Martin Doctoral Candidate Dept. of Education, Oxford University @MartinCommaTom /MartinCommaTom From joe.glick@gmail.com Wed Nov 18 13:08:41 2015 From: joe.glick@gmail.com (JAG) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:08:41 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Literature review of first-person studies of apprenticeship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also Perret, J-F and Perret Clermont, A-N, 2011. *Apprenticeship in a changing trade. *Information AgePublishing:Charlotte, NC. It's part of a series edited by Jaan Valsiner. Though it's particular to Swiss watches and the needed changes in training and apprenticeship occasioned by transformation of the industry (think Apple Watch or even Swatch, compared to Rolex) it considers the issues of apprenticeship broadly. Sorry I don't have the URL. On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 2:08 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > http://methodenpool.uni-koeln.de/situierteslernen/Teaching%20As%20Learning.htm > might be a start for more foundational work (including the references). > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Tom Martin > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 1:59 PM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Literature review of first-person studies of > apprenticeship > > Dear all, > > Excuse me if this is question is a little off-topic, but knowing the > interests of those reading XMCA, I thought that others might also benefit > from this sort of thread. > > I'm doing a PhD in which I will become an apprentice to study learning in > a community of practice/through LPP. There are quite a few other studies > like this, the most obvious being those in Michael Coy's 1989 book > 'Apprenticeship', along with Trevor Marchand's 'Minaret Building...' > (2012), Eugene Cooper's 'Wood-carvers...' (1980), and others. > > My problem now is that it is difficult to conduct a complete review of > studies like these because of the varied language that they use to describe > themselves. For example, some describe themselves as ethnography, others as > phenomenological inquiry; some describe apprenticeships, while others > research very loose communities of skilled practitioners. No combination of > search terms (I have tried "first-person", "apprenticeship", > "experiential", "ethnography" etc in various combinations) results in > convincingly comprehensive results - I am afraid I am missing large swathes > of literature. > > My question is: Is anyone aware of recent edited collections of this type > of work, or resources (database thesaurus terms, perhaps?) that would help > in the search? I am also considering just 'crowd-sourcing' a list of > publications, a strategy that might be of use to others if the list were > made public. > > Curious to hear your thoughts, > Tom > > ? > > Tom Martin > Doctoral Candidate > Dept. of Education, Oxford University > > @MartinCommaTom > /MartinCommaTom > > From h2cmng@yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 18 14:07:25 2015 From: h2cmng@yahoo.co.uk (peter jones) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 22:07:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Literature review of first-person studies of apprenticeship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1441656269.11384261.1447884445828.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Tom I may be equally off-topic but could a corpus perspective provide some avenues....? LLT Vol5Num3 Kennedy: An Evaluation of Intermediate Students' Approaches to Corpus Investigation | ? | | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? | | LLT Vol5Num3 Kennedy: An Evaluation of Intermediate Students' Approaches to Corpus InvestigationThe CWIC Project: A Corpus for our Teaching and Learning Context2 | | | | View on llt.msu.edu | Preview by Yahoo | | | | ? | All best, Peter Jones Lancashire, UK Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care http://twitter.com/h2cm From: Peter Smagorinsky To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Wednesday, 18 November 2015, 19:08 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Literature review of first-person studies of apprenticeship http://methodenpool.uni-koeln.de/situierteslernen/Teaching%20As%20Learning.htm might be a start for more foundational work (including the references). -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Tom Martin Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 1:59 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Literature review of first-person studies of apprenticeship Dear all, Excuse me if this is question is a little off-topic, but knowing the interests of those reading XMCA, I thought that others might also benefit from this sort of thread. I'm doing a PhD in which I will become an apprentice to study learning in a community of practice/through LPP. There are quite a few other studies like this, the most obvious being those in Michael Coy's 1989 book 'Apprenticeship', along with Trevor Marchand's 'Minaret Building...' (2012), Eugene Cooper's 'Wood-carvers...' (1980), and others. My problem now is that it is difficult to conduct a complete review of studies like these because of the varied language that they use to describe themselves. For example, some describe themselves as ethnography, others as phenomenological inquiry; some describe apprenticeships, while others research very loose communities of skilled practitioners. No combination of search terms (I have tried "first-person", "apprenticeship", "experiential", "ethnography" etc in various combinations) results in convincingly comprehensive results - I am afraid I am missing large swathes of literature. My question is: Is anyone aware of recent edited collections of this type of work, or resources (database thesaurus terms, perhaps?) that would help in the search? I am also considering just 'crowd-sourcing' a list of publications, a strategy that might be of use to others if the list were made public. Curious to hear your thoughts, Tom ? Tom Martin Doctoral Candidate Dept. of Education, Oxford University @MartinCommaTom /MartinCommaTom From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Nov 19 02:27:58 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 10:27:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Literature review of first-person studies of apprenticeship In-Reply-To: <1441656269.11384261.1447884445828.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1441656269.11384261.1447884445828.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: According to the definition here , a corpus is determined by measures of external validity (i.e. representative of the field of inquiry). Its not clear to me how that can be productively applied to situating one's work/theory. For conceptual distinctions it seems that the opposite is more useful: to garner cases which exemplify useful differences. I would have thought that something like a contemporary version of "[psychological and] sociological paradigms" (e.g. Burrell & Morgan's volume) applied to the field of "the personal and social situation of apprenticeship" would be the order of the day. Though I am guessing that the work required to go through and grok something like that would not sit well with many a contemporary PhD (given the assumption that CHAT studied rigorously is a multi-year project). Best, Huw On 18 November 2015 at 22:07, peter jones wrote: > Hi Tom > I may be equally off-topic but could a corpus perspective provide some > avenues....? > LLT Vol5Num3 Kennedy: An Evaluation of Intermediate Students' Approaches > to Corpus Investigation > > | | > | | | | | | > | LLT Vol5Num3 Kennedy: An Evaluation of Intermediate Students' Approaches > to Corpus InvestigationThe CWIC Project: A Corpus for our Teaching and > Learning Context2 | > | | > | View on llt.msu.edu | Preview by Yahoo | > | | > | | > > > All best, > Peter Jones > Lancashire, UK > Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" > http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ > Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model > h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care > http://twitter.com/h2cm > From: Peter Smagorinsky > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Wednesday, 18 November 2015, 19:08 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Literature review of first-person studies of > apprenticeship > > > http://methodenpool.uni-koeln.de/situierteslernen/Teaching%20As%20Learning.htm > might be a start for more foundational work (including the references). > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Tom Martin > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 1:59 PM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Literature review of first-person studies of > apprenticeship > > Dear all, > > Excuse me if this is question is a little off-topic, but knowing the > interests of those reading XMCA, I thought that others might also benefit > from this sort of thread. > > I'm doing a PhD in which I will become an apprentice to study learning in > a community of practice/through LPP. There are quite a few other studies > like this, the most obvious being those in Michael Coy's 1989 book > 'Apprenticeship', along with Trevor Marchand's 'Minaret Building...' > (2012), Eugene Cooper's 'Wood-carvers...' (1980), and others. > > My problem now is that it is difficult to conduct a complete review of > studies like these because of the varied language that they use to describe > themselves. For example, some describe themselves as ethnography, others as > phenomenological inquiry; some describe apprenticeships, while others > research very loose communities of skilled practitioners. No combination of > search terms (I have tried "first-person", "apprenticeship", > "experiential", "ethnography" etc in various combinations) results in > convincingly comprehensive results - I am afraid I am missing large swathes > of literature. > > My question is: Is anyone aware of recent edited collections of this type > of work, or resources (database thesaurus terms, perhaps?) that would help > in the search? I am also considering just 'crowd-sourcing' a list of > publications, a strategy that might be of use to others if the list were > made public. > > Curious to hear your thoughts, > Tom > > ? > > Tom Martin > Doctoral Candidate > Dept. of Education, Oxford University > > @MartinCommaTom > /MartinCommaTom > > > > > From smago@uga.edu Thu Nov 19 17:01:48 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:01:48 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] http://jolle.coe.uga.edu/current-issue/ The Fall issue of JoLLE is now available online! Message-ID: http://jolle.coe.uga.edu/current-issue/ The Fall issue of JoLLE is now available online! From ConneryMC@cwu.edu Thu Nov 19 20:15:32 2015 From: ConneryMC@cwu.edu (Mary Connery) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 04:15:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: http://jolle.coe.uga.edu/current-issue/ The Fall issue of JoLLE is now available online! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Peter & Jolle staff: Thank you for what looks like another incredible edition of Jolle! Best wishes, Cathrene Dr. M. Cathrene Connery Department of Language, Literacy, & Special Education Central Washington University 400 E. University Way Ellensburg, WA 98926 509/ 963-2680 E-mail: connerymc@cwu.edu Skype address: cathrene.connery ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+connerymc=cwu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 5:01 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) Subject: [Xmca-l] http://jolle.coe.uga.edu/current-issue/ The Fall issue of JoLLE is now available online! http://jolle.coe.uga.edu/current-issue/ The Fall issue of JoLLE is now available online! From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Nov 22 15:57:55 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 15:57:55 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Qwerty_Special Issue_Vol. 11_2: Call for paper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Coleagues -- Qwerty is full of people who xmca readers might find interesting. And here is a call for papers. Seems like an opportunity. See below mike ---------- Forwarded messag Dear all, it is a pleasure to announce the new Qwerty Call for paper. Please see the attached file and disseminate it as much as you can. And if you could consider this call as a venue for your papers it would be very nice Thanks in advance Best regards Beatrice -- Hai ricevuto questo messaggio perch? sei iscritto al gruppo "QwertyScientificCommittee" di Google Gruppi. Per annullare l'iscrizione a questo gruppo e non ricevere pi? le sue email, invia un'email a scientificcommittee+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. Per postare in questo gruppo, invia un'email a scientificcommittee@googlegroups.com. Visita questo gruppo all'indirizzo http://groups.google.com/group/scientificcommittee. Per altre opzioni visita https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Qwerty_Special Issue_Vol. 11_2.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 358474 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151122/1de958a6/attachment.pdf From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Nov 23 20:16:00 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 20:16:00 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three Message-ID: the following observations might be of interest. I wonder if others have had similar experiences. The dynamics of language and the paths of mediation seem to be clear to me, but maybe that is just an illusory artifact of reporting on introspective reports. what, as Dr. Matusov is fond of asking, do you think? mike -------------------------------------------- Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I said, "Lets make that a part of the repetoir and my mind drifted to a search for other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. "Shi," I suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" Sheila replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has good shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." Then I thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into Russian. "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage soup, or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to myself, kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, even though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of course say cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from remembering the delicious smell of schi? My strong hunch is that, because I experienced WWII as a preschooler who became obsessed with the war. All during my boyood I read fictional and historical accounts of the war. In later years that war was depicted over and over again in films from the Guns of Navarone to Private Ryan's war in a manner that fit with my childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the SS, the Wermacht -- "krauts." To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to have retained this primitive, early, persistent, organizing image. Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of shi, I was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating the knowledge that kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbabe. Odd how mediation works. And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary for the definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard family,including many economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... ?darn!? -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Nov 23 20:25:08 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 20:25:08 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oops, i should have proof read before rushing off. here is a slightly cleaner text. Same ideas. :-) mike ------------- Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I said, "Lets make that a part of the repertoire and my mind drifted to a search for other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. "Shi," I suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" Sheila replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has good shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." Then I thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into Russian. "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage soup, or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to myself, kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, even though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of course say cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from remembering the delicious smell of schi? My strong hunch is that the answer lies with the fact that I experienced WWII as a preschooler who became obsessed with the war. All during my boyood I read countless fictional and historical accounts of the war. The, and in later years that war was depicted over and over again in films from the Guns of Navaronne to Private Ryan's war in a manner that fit with my childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the SS, the Wermacht -- "krauts." To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to have retained this primitive, early, persistent, organizing image. Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of shi, I was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating the knowledge that kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbage. Odd how mediation works. And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary for the definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard family,including many economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:16 PM, mike cole wrote: > the following observations might be of interest. I wonder if others have > had similar experiences. The dynamics of language and the paths of > mediation seem to be clear to me, but maybe that is just an illusory > artifact of reporting on introspective reports. > > what, as Dr. Matusov is fond of asking, do you think? > mike > -------------------------------------------- > Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. > > > > The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I said, > "Lets make that a part of the repetoir and my mind drifted to a search for > other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. "Shi," I > suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" Sheila > replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has good > shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." Then I > thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into Russian. > "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to > emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage > soup, or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to myself, > kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! > > > > I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never > connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, even > though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of course say > cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from > remembering the delicious smell of schi? > > > > My strong hunch is that, because I experienced WWII as a preschooler who > became obsessed with the war. All during my boyood I read fictional and > historical accounts of the war. In later years that war was depicted over > and over again in films from the Guns of Navarone to Private Ryan's war in > a manner that fit with my childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the SS, > the Wermacht -- "krauts." To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to have > retained this primitive, early, persistent, organizing image. > > > > Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of shi, I > was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating the > knowledge that > > kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbabe. > > > > Odd how mediation works. > > And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary for the > definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: > > > > > "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard family,including many > > economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... > > > ?darn!? > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From ablunden@mira.net Mon Nov 23 22:17:05 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:17:05 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <565400E1.2090205@mira.net> You've got a good head on your shoulders, Mike! andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 24/11/2015 3:25 PM, mike cole wrote: > Oops, i should have proof read before rushing off. here is a slightly > cleaner text. Same ideas. :-) > mike > ------------- > > Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. > > > > The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I said, > "Lets make that a part of the repertoire and my mind drifted to a search > for other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. "Shi," I > suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" Sheila > replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has good > shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." Then I > thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into Russian. > "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to > emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage soup, > or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to myself, > kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! > > > > I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never > connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, even > though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of course say > cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from > remembering the delicious smell of schi? > > > > My strong hunch is that the answer lies with the fact that I experienced > WWII as a preschooler who became obsessed with the war. All during my > boyood I read countless fictional and historical accounts of the war. The, > and in later years that war was depicted over and over again in films from > the Guns of Navaronne to Private Ryan's war in a manner that fit with my > childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the SS, the Wermacht -- "krauts." > To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to have retained this primitive, > early, persistent, organizing image. > > > > Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of shi, I > was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating the > knowledge that > > kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbage. > > > > Odd how mediation works. > > And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary for the > definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: > > > > "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard > family,including many > economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:16 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> the following observations might be of interest. I wonder if others have >> had similar experiences. The dynamics of language and the paths of >> mediation seem to be clear to me, but maybe that is just an illusory >> artifact of reporting on introspective reports. >> >> what, as Dr. Matusov is fond of asking, do you think? >> mike >> -------------------------------------------- >> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. >> >> >> >> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I said, >> "Lets make that a part of the repetoir and my mind drifted to a search for >> other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. "Shi," I >> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" Sheila >> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has good >> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." Then I >> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into Russian. >> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to >> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage >> soup, or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to myself, >> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! >> >> >> >> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never >> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, even >> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of course say >> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from >> remembering the delicious smell of schi? >> >> >> >> My strong hunch is that, because I experienced WWII as a preschooler who >> became obsessed with the war. All during my boyood I read fictional and >> historical accounts of the war. In later years that war was depicted over >> and over again in films from the Guns of Navarone to Private Ryan's war in >> a manner that fit with my childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the SS, >> the Wermacht -- "krauts." To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to have >> retained this primitive, early, persistent, organizing image. >> >> >> >> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of shi, I >> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating the >> knowledge that >> >> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbabe. >> >> >> >> Odd how mediation works. >> >> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary for the >> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: >> >> >> >> >> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard family,including many >> >> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... >> >> >> ?darn!? >> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >> >> > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Nov 24 08:31:17 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:31:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three In-Reply-To: <565400E1.2090205@mira.net> References: <565400E1.2090205@mira.net> Message-ID: I wouldn't have thought that a prior meaning blocks the path to the primary meaning necessarily. The norm, it seems, is that we are unaware of the etymological roots of words. And that unless one was practiced at questioning the structure of the word forms then a discovery is not really blocked as so much as never sought in the first place. Personally, it seems to me that when I enquire into an etymological meaning and find it consonant with a a more pervasive (though little understood) understanding, I take some temporary satisfaction in one more accounting in the reckoning against our stupid society. As for (sauer)kraut, I think we could say the same for the more contemporary neo-liberal. Both terms point back to the speaker (and artificer) of the word's confusions and sour-grapes which are projected onto the protagonist -- such is war and politics. Huw On 24 November 2015 at 06:17, Andy Blunden wrote: > You've got a good head on your shoulders, Mike! > andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > On 24/11/2015 3:25 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Oops, i should have proof read before rushing off. here is a slightly >> cleaner text. Same ideas. :-) >> mike >> ------------- >> >> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. >> >> >> >> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I said, >> "Lets make that a part of the repertoire and my mind drifted to a search >> for other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. "Shi," I >> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" Sheila >> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has good >> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." Then I >> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into Russian. >> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to >> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage soup, >> or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to myself, >> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! >> >> >> >> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never >> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, even >> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of course say >> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from >> remembering the delicious smell of schi? >> >> >> >> My strong hunch is that the answer lies with the fact that I experienced >> WWII as a preschooler who became obsessed with the war. All during my >> boyood I read countless fictional and historical accounts of the war. The, >> and in later years that war was depicted over and over again in films from >> the Guns of Navaronne to Private Ryan's war in a manner that fit with my >> childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the SS, the Wermacht -- >> "krauts." >> To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to have retained this primitive, >> early, persistent, organizing image. >> >> >> >> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of shi, I >> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating the >> knowledge that >> >> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbage. >> >> >> >> Odd how mediation works. >> >> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary for the >> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: >> >> >> >> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard >> family,including many >> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... >> >> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:16 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> the following observations might be of interest. I wonder if others have >>> had similar experiences. The dynamics of language and the paths of >>> mediation seem to be clear to me, but maybe that is just an illusory >>> artifact of reporting on introspective reports. >>> >>> what, as Dr. Matusov is fond of asking, do you think? >>> mike >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. >>> >>> >>> >>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I said, >>> "Lets make that a part of the repetoir and my mind drifted to a search >>> for >>> other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. "Shi," I >>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" Sheila >>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has good >>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." Then >>> I >>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into >>> Russian. >>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to >>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage >>> soup, or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to >>> myself, >>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! >>> >>> >>> >>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never >>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, even >>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of course say >>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from >>> remembering the delicious smell of schi? >>> >>> >>> >>> My strong hunch is that, because I experienced WWII as a preschooler who >>> became obsessed with the war. All during my boyood I read fictional and >>> historical accounts of the war. In later years that war was depicted over >>> and over again in films from the Guns of Navarone to Private Ryan's war >>> in >>> a manner that fit with my childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the >>> SS, >>> the Wermacht -- "krauts." To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to >>> have >>> retained this primitive, early, persistent, organizing image. >>> >>> >>> >>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of shi, I >>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating the >>> knowledge that >>> >>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbabe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Odd how mediation works. >>> >>> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary for the >>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard >>> family,including many >>> >>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... >>> >>> >>> ?darn!? >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Nov 24 10:33:07 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 18:33:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] interpretations of the history of ideas Message-ID: Apropos of cultural-historical conceptions, I've been reading a little of Arthur Lovejoy's approach to the history of ideas (1948). It makes for interesting reading, although I'm not particularly familiar with many of the references. However, one of the central pivots seems to be 'the genetic habit of mind', which, as far as I can discern is the idea behind the history of ideas... Best, Huw From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Nov 24 10:52:01 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 18:52:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Omar K. Moore Message-ID: I've been looking into Omar Moore's writings following a reference from one of Alan Kay's papers. There are some rather interesting parallels between his work and classic activity theory, which others might find interesting -- it helps to show just how difficult it is to put together a theory like activity theory. My access to papers is somewhat restricted at the moment, so if people have access to his papers I'd appreciate them being forwarded on (I'm assuming a 50 year old paper would be sharable). Attached is perhaps one of the more interesting ones. Best, Huw -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: moore_structure_of_personality.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2259708 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20151124/5a1471f6/attachment-0001.pdf From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Nov 24 12:04:32 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 12:04:32 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: interpretations of the history of ideas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5654c2e4.412a620a.12339.3df2@mx.google.com> Huw, could you say a little more on the (genetic) habit of mind. Mike wrote of the relation of image and word referring to (kraut). I am curious if this notion of (image) can extend to genetic habits of mind. These cultural images are shared and also mediate our ideas and images. In particular I have one image in mind. The image of having fallen away from and then returned to ... -----Original Message----- From: "Huw Lloyd" Sent: ?2015-?11-?24 10:34 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] interpretations of the history of ideas Apropos of cultural-historical conceptions, I've been reading a little of Arthur Lovejoy's approach to the history of ideas (1948). It makes for interesting reading, although I'm not particularly familiar with many of the references. However, one of the central pivots seems to be 'the genetic habit of mind', which, as far as I can discern is the idea behind the history of ideas... Best, Huw From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Tue Nov 24 13:19:37 2015 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 21:19:37 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three In-Reply-To: References: <565400E1.2090205@mira.net> Message-ID: To butt in again - surely 'sauer' also means 'acidic' - pickled cabbage? Tom Middlesbrough UK On 24 November 2015 at 16:31, Huw Lloyd wrote: > I wouldn't have thought that a prior meaning blocks the path to the primary > meaning necessarily. The norm, it seems, is that we are unaware of the > etymological roots of words. And that unless one was practiced at > questioning the structure of the word forms then a discovery is not really > blocked as so much as never sought in the first place. Personally, it > seems to me that when I enquire into an etymological meaning and find it > consonant with a a more pervasive (though little understood) understanding, > I take some temporary satisfaction in one more accounting in the reckoning > against our stupid society. > > As for (sauer)kraut, I think we could say the same for the more > contemporary neo-liberal. Both terms point back to the speaker (and > artificer) of the word's confusions and sour-grapes which are projected > onto the protagonist -- such is war and politics. > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > > On 24 November 2015 at 06:17, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > You've got a good head on your shoulders, Mike! > > andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > On 24/11/2015 3:25 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> Oops, i should have proof read before rushing off. here is a slightly > >> cleaner text. Same ideas. :-) > >> mike > >> ------------- > >> > >> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. > >> > >> > >> > >> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I > said, > >> "Lets make that a part of the repertoire and my mind drifted to a search > >> for other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. "Shi," > I > >> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" Sheila > >> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has good > >> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." > Then I > >> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into > Russian. > >> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to > >> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage > soup, > >> or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to myself, > >> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! > >> > >> > >> > >> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never > >> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, even > >> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of course > say > >> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from > >> remembering the delicious smell of schi? > >> > >> > >> > >> My strong hunch is that the answer lies with the fact that I experienced > >> WWII as a preschooler who became obsessed with the war. All during my > >> boyood I read countless fictional and historical accounts of the war. > The, > >> and in later years that war was depicted over and over again in films > from > >> the Guns of Navaronne to Private Ryan's war in a manner that fit with my > >> childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the SS, the Wermacht -- > >> "krauts." > >> To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to have retained this > primitive, > >> early, persistent, organizing image. > >> > >> > >> > >> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of shi, I > >> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating the > >> knowledge that > >> > >> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbage. > >> > >> > >> > >> Odd how mediation works. > >> > >> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary for > the > >> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: > >> > >> > >> > >> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard > >> family,including many > >> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... > >> > >> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:16 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> > >> the following observations might be of interest. I wonder if others have > >>> had similar experiences. The dynamics of language and the paths of > >>> mediation seem to be clear to me, but maybe that is just an illusory > >>> artifact of reporting on introspective reports. > >>> > >>> what, as Dr. Matusov is fond of asking, do you think? > >>> mike > >>> -------------------------------------------- > >>> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I > said, > >>> "Lets make that a part of the repetoir and my mind drifted to a search > >>> for > >>> other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. "Shi," I > >>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" Sheila > >>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has good > >>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." > Then > >>> I > >>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into > >>> Russian. > >>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to > >>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage > >>> soup, or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to > >>> myself, > >>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never > >>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, even > >>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of course > say > >>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from > >>> remembering the delicious smell of schi? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> My strong hunch is that, because I experienced WWII as a preschooler > who > >>> became obsessed with the war. All during my boyood I read fictional and > >>> historical accounts of the war. In later years that war was depicted > over > >>> and over again in films from the Guns of Navarone to Private Ryan's war > >>> in > >>> a manner that fit with my childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the > >>> SS, > >>> the Wermacht -- "krauts." To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to > >>> have > >>> retained this primitive, early, persistent, organizing image. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of shi, I > >>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating the > >>> knowledge that > >>> > >>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbabe. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Odd how mediation works. > >>> > >>> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary for > the > >>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard > >>> family,including many > >>> > >>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... > >>> > >>> > >>> ?darn!? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Nov 24 13:49:06 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 13:49:06 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three In-Reply-To: References: <565400E1.2090205@mira.net> Message-ID: The word, pickle, never occurred to me, Tom. Kisli I immediately equated with sour. It was the kraut part that I was opaque. That part of my example had nothing to do with etymology, Huw. My wife reminded me of it when I reported the first part. So complicated to communicate about such experiences. And of course open to multiple interpretations. Still, I like mine...of course! :-) Mike On Tuesday, November 24, 2015, Tom Richardson < tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > To butt in again - surely 'sauer' also means 'acidic' - pickled cabbage? > Tom > Middlesbrough UK > > On 24 November 2015 at 16:31, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > I wouldn't have thought that a prior meaning blocks the path to the > primary > > meaning necessarily. The norm, it seems, is that we are unaware of the > > etymological roots of words. And that unless one was practiced at > > questioning the structure of the word forms then a discovery is not > really > > blocked as so much as never sought in the first place. Personally, it > > seems to me that when I enquire into an etymological meaning and find it > > consonant with a a more pervasive (though little understood) > understanding, > > I take some temporary satisfaction in one more accounting in the > reckoning > > against our stupid society. > > > > As for (sauer)kraut, I think we could say the same for the more > > contemporary neo-liberal. Both terms point back to the speaker (and > > artificer) of the word's confusions and sour-grapes which are projected > > onto the protagonist -- such is war and politics. > > > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24 November 2015 at 06:17, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > > > You've got a good head on your shoulders, Mike! > > > andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > On 24/11/2015 3:25 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > >> Oops, i should have proof read before rushing off. here is a slightly > > >> cleaner text. Same ideas. :-) > > >> mike > > >> ------------- > > >> > > >> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I > > said, > > >> "Lets make that a part of the repertoire and my mind drifted to a > search > > >> for other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. > "Shi," > > I > > >> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" > Sheila > > >> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has > good > > >> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." > > Then I > > >> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into > > Russian. > > >> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to > > >> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage > > soup, > > >> or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to myself, > > >> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never > > >> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, > even > > >> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of course > > say > > >> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from > > >> remembering the delicious smell of schi? > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> My strong hunch is that the answer lies with the fact that I > experienced > > >> WWII as a preschooler who became obsessed with the war. All during my > > >> boyood I read countless fictional and historical accounts of the war. > > The, > > >> and in later years that war was depicted over and over again in films > > from > > >> the Guns of Navaronne to Private Ryan's war in a manner that fit with > my > > >> childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the SS, the Wermacht -- > > >> "krauts." > > >> To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to have retained this > > primitive, > > >> early, persistent, organizing image. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of shi, > I > > >> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating the > > >> knowledge that > > >> > > >> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbage. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Odd how mediation works. > > >> > > >> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary for > > the > > >> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard > > >> family,including many > > >> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... > > >> > > >> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:16 PM, mike cole > wrote: > > >> > > >> the following observations might be of interest. I wonder if others > have > > >>> had similar experiences. The dynamics of language and the paths of > > >>> mediation seem to be clear to me, but maybe that is just an illusory > > >>> artifact of reporting on introspective reports. > > >>> > > >>> what, as Dr. Matusov is fond of asking, do you think? > > >>> mike > > >>> -------------------------------------------- > > >>> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I > > said, > > >>> "Lets make that a part of the repetoir and my mind drifted to a > search > > >>> for > > >>> other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. "Shi," I > > >>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" > Sheila > > >>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has > good > > >>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." > > Then > > >>> I > > >>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into > > >>> Russian. > > >>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to > > >>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage > > >>> soup, or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to > > >>> myself, > > >>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never > > >>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, > even > > >>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of course > > say > > >>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from > > >>> remembering the delicious smell of schi? > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> My strong hunch is that, because I experienced WWII as a preschooler > > who > > >>> became obsessed with the war. All during my boyood I read fictional > and > > >>> historical accounts of the war. In later years that war was depicted > > over > > >>> and over again in films from the Guns of Navarone to Private Ryan's > war > > >>> in > > >>> a manner that fit with my childhood image of WW II German soldiers, > the > > >>> SS, > > >>> the Wermacht -- "krauts." To me, the image of the word kraut, seems > to > > >>> have > > >>> retained this primitive, early, persistent, organizing image. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of > shi, I > > >>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating the > > >>> knowledge that > > >>> > > >>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbabe. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Odd how mediation works. > > >>> > > >>> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary for > > the > > >>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard > > >>> family,including many > > >>> > > >>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ?darn!? > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> > > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Nov 24 13:56:04 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 21:56:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: interpretations of the history of ideas In-Reply-To: <5654c2e4.412a620a.12339.3df2@mx.google.com> References: <5654c2e4.412a620a.12339.3df2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: It means to habitually consider any thing in terms of its orgins, Larry, i.e. how such a thing has come to be. A technical idea, for instance, consists of notions in relation to problematic situations. It offers affords a precise solution to particular framed problems, but that can only really be understood by exposure to these problems as problems (without which one would not be appreciating the idea, but rather assimilating contents of the idea in terms of other ideas one understands). This is not Lovejoy's thesis, however. Technical and scientific ideas are not the delimited scope of his work. He writes about other social influences as ideas such as aspects of the Romantic movement. See the introductory chapter to his his most well-known publication, the great chain of being. Best, Huw On 24 November 2015 at 20:04, Lplarry wrote: > Huw, could you say a little more on the (genetic) habit of mind. > Mike wrote of the relation of image and word referring to (kraut). > I am curious if this notion of (image) can extend to genetic habits of > mind. These cultural images are shared and also mediate our ideas and > images. > In particular I have one image in mind. The image of having fallen away > from and then returned to ... > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Huw Lloyd" > Sent: ?2015-?11-?24 10:34 AM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] interpretations of the history of ideas > > Apropos of cultural-historical conceptions, I've been reading a little of > Arthur Lovejoy's approach to the history of ideas (1948). It makes for > interesting reading, although I'm not particularly familiar with many of > the references. However, one of the central pivots seems to be 'the > genetic habit of mind', which, as far as I can discern is the idea behind > the history of ideas... > > Best, > Huw > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Nov 24 14:11:24 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 22:11:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three In-Reply-To: References: <565400E1.2090205@mira.net> Message-ID: Now I am confused. How could a word's meaning not have anything to do with etymology? :) Huw On 24 November 2015 at 21:49, mike cole wrote: > The word, pickle, never occurred to me, Tom. Kisli I immediately equated > with sour. It was the kraut part that I was opaque. That part of my example > had nothing to do with etymology, Huw. My wife reminded me of it when I > reported the first part. > > So complicated to communicate about such experiences. And of course open to > multiple interpretations. Still, I like mine...of course! :-) > Mike > > On Tuesday, November 24, 2015, Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: > > > To butt in again - surely 'sauer' also means 'acidic' - pickled cabbage? > > Tom > > Middlesbrough UK > > > > On 24 November 2015 at 16:31, Huw Lloyd > > wrote: > > > > > I wouldn't have thought that a prior meaning blocks the path to the > > primary > > > meaning necessarily. The norm, it seems, is that we are unaware of the > > > etymological roots of words. And that unless one was practiced at > > > questioning the structure of the word forms then a discovery is not > > really > > > blocked as so much as never sought in the first place. Personally, it > > > seems to me that when I enquire into an etymological meaning and find > it > > > consonant with a a more pervasive (though little understood) > > understanding, > > > I take some temporary satisfaction in one more accounting in the > > reckoning > > > against our stupid society. > > > > > > As for (sauer)kraut, I think we could say the same for the more > > > contemporary neo-liberal. Both terms point back to the speaker (and > > > artificer) of the word's confusions and sour-grapes which are projected > > > onto the protagonist -- such is war and politics. > > > > > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24 November 2015 at 06:17, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > > > > > > You've got a good head on your shoulders, Mike! > > > > andy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > On 24/11/2015 3:25 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > >> Oops, i should have proof read before rushing off. here is a > slightly > > > >> cleaner text. Same ideas. :-) > > > >> mike > > > >> ------------- > > > >> > > > >> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I > > > said, > > > >> "Lets make that a part of the repertoire and my mind drifted to a > > search > > > >> for other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. > > "Shi," > > > I > > > >> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" > > Sheila > > > >> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has > > good > > > >> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." > > > Then I > > > >> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into > > > Russian. > > > >> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to > > > >> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage > > > soup, > > > >> or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to > myself, > > > >> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never > > > >> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, > > even > > > >> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of > course > > > say > > > >> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from > > > >> remembering the delicious smell of schi? > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> My strong hunch is that the answer lies with the fact that I > > experienced > > > >> WWII as a preschooler who became obsessed with the war. All during > my > > > >> boyood I read countless fictional and historical accounts of the > war. > > > The, > > > >> and in later years that war was depicted over and over again in > films > > > from > > > >> the Guns of Navaronne to Private Ryan's war in a manner that fit > with > > my > > > >> childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the SS, the Wermacht -- > > > >> "krauts." > > > >> To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to have retained this > > > primitive, > > > >> early, persistent, organizing image. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of > shi, > > I > > > >> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating > the > > > >> knowledge that > > > >> > > > >> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbage. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Odd how mediation works. > > > >> > > > >> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary > for > > > the > > > >> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard > > > >> family,including many > > > >> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... > > > >> > > > >> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:16 PM, mike cole > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> the following observations might be of interest. I wonder if others > > have > > > >>> had similar experiences. The dynamics of language and the paths of > > > >>> mediation seem to be clear to me, but maybe that is just an > illusory > > > >>> artifact of reporting on introspective reports. > > > >>> > > > >>> what, as Dr. Matusov is fond of asking, do you think? > > > >>> mike > > > >>> -------------------------------------------- > > > >>> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I > > > said, > > > >>> "Lets make that a part of the repetoir and my mind drifted to a > > search > > > >>> for > > > >>> other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. > "Shi," I > > > >>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" > > Sheila > > > >>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has > > good > > > >>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." > > > Then > > > >>> I > > > >>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into > > > >>> Russian. > > > >>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, > to > > > >>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual > cabbage > > > >>> soup, or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to > > > >>> myself, > > > >>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow > never > > > >>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, > > even > > > >>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of > course > > > say > > > >>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from > > > >>> remembering the delicious smell of schi? > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> My strong hunch is that, because I experienced WWII as a > preschooler > > > who > > > >>> became obsessed with the war. All during my boyood I read fictional > > and > > > >>> historical accounts of the war. In later years that war was > depicted > > > over > > > >>> and over again in films from the Guns of Navarone to Private Ryan's > > war > > > >>> in > > > >>> a manner that fit with my childhood image of WW II German soldiers, > > the > > > >>> SS, > > > >>> the Wermacht -- "krauts." To me, the image of the word kraut, seems > > to > > > >>> have > > > >>> retained this primitive, early, persistent, organizing image. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of > > shi, I > > > >>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating > the > > > >>> knowledge that > > > >>> > > > >>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbabe. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Odd how mediation works. > > > >>> > > > >>> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary > for > > > the > > > >>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard > > > >>> family,including many > > > >>> > > > >>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> ?darn!? > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> -- > > > >>> > > > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with > an > > > >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From ablunden@mira.net Tue Nov 24 15:57:18 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:57:18 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three In-Reply-To: References: <565400E1.2090205@mira.net> Message-ID: <5654F95E.4040907@mira.net> "Not have anything to do with" would not be quite right in my view. I have always believed that the study of a word's etymology sheds light on the concept it names, but mainly because it brings into relief the genesis of the concept itself and its interconnections - puts the frame back into the movie. But to say that the "original" meaning of a word is the "true" meaning of the word (or other symbol or practice) is called "the genetic fallacy." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 25/11/2015 9:11 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Now I am confused. How could a word's meaning not have anything to do with > etymology? :) > > Huw > > On 24 November 2015 at 21:49, mike cole wrote: > >> The word, pickle, never occurred to me, Tom. Kisli I immediately equated >> with sour. It was the kraut part that I was opaque. That part of my example >> had nothing to do with etymology, Huw. My wife reminded me of it when I >> reported the first part. >> >> So complicated to communicate about such experiences. And of course open to >> multiple interpretations. Still, I like mine...of course! :-) >> Mike >> >> On Tuesday, November 24, 2015, Tom Richardson < >> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >> >>> To butt in again - surely 'sauer' also means 'acidic' - pickled cabbage? >>> Tom >>> Middlesbrough UK >>> >>> On 24 November 2015 at 16:31, Huw Lloyd >> > wrote: >>> >>>> I wouldn't have thought that a prior meaning blocks the path to the >>> primary >>>> meaning necessarily. The norm, it seems, is that we are unaware of the >>>> etymological roots of words. And that unless one was practiced at >>>> questioning the structure of the word forms then a discovery is not >>> really >>>> blocked as so much as never sought in the first place. Personally, it >>>> seems to me that when I enquire into an etymological meaning and find >> it >>>> consonant with a a more pervasive (though little understood) >>> understanding, >>>> I take some temporary satisfaction in one more accounting in the >>> reckoning >>>> against our stupid society. >>>> >>>> As for (sauer)kraut, I think we could say the same for the more >>>> contemporary neo-liberal. Both terms point back to the speaker (and >>>> artificer) of the word's confusions and sour-grapes which are projected >>>> onto the protagonist -- such is war and politics. >>>> >>>> Huw >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 24 November 2015 at 06:17, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >>>>> You've got a good head on your shoulders, Mike! >>>>> andy >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>> >>>>> On 24/11/2015 3:25 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Oops, i should have proof read before rushing off. here is a >> slightly >>>>>> cleaner text. Same ideas. :-) >>>>>> mike >>>>>> ------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I >>>> said, >>>>>> "Lets make that a part of the repertoire and my mind drifted to a >>> search >>>>>> for other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. >>> "Shi," >>>> I >>>>>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" >>> Sheila >>>>>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has >>> good >>>>>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." >>>> Then I >>>>>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into >>>> Russian. >>>>>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to >>>>>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage >>>> soup, >>>>>> or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to >> myself, >>>>>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never >>>>>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, >>> even >>>>>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of >> course >>>> say >>>>>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from >>>>>> remembering the delicious smell of schi? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> My strong hunch is that the answer lies with the fact that I >>> experienced >>>>>> WWII as a preschooler who became obsessed with the war. All during >> my >>>>>> boyood I read countless fictional and historical accounts of the >> war. >>>> The, >>>>>> and in later years that war was depicted over and over again in >> films >>>> from >>>>>> the Guns of Navaronne to Private Ryan's war in a manner that fit >> with >>> my >>>>>> childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the SS, the Wermacht -- >>>>>> "krauts." >>>>>> To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to have retained this >>>> primitive, >>>>>> early, persistent, organizing image. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of >> shi, >>> I >>>>>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating >> the >>>>>> knowledge that >>>>>> >>>>>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbage. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Odd how mediation works. >>>>>> >>>>>> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary >> for >>>> the >>>>>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard >>>>>> family,including many >>>>>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:16 PM, mike cole >> > wrote: >>>>>> the following observations might be of interest. I wonder if others >>> have >>>>>>> had similar experiences. The dynamics of language and the paths of >>>>>>> mediation seem to be clear to me, but maybe that is just an >> illusory >>>>>>> artifact of reporting on introspective reports. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> what, as Dr. Matusov is fond of asking, do you think? >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I >>>> said, >>>>>>> "Lets make that a part of the repetoir and my mind drifted to a >>> search >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. >> "Shi," I >>>>>>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" >>> Sheila >>>>>>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has >>> good >>>>>>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." >>>> Then >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into >>>>>>> Russian. >>>>>>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, >> to >>>>>>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual >> cabbage >>>>>>> soup, or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to >>>>>>> myself, >>>>>>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow >> never >>>>>>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, >>> even >>>>>>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of >> course >>>> say >>>>>>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from >>>>>>> remembering the delicious smell of schi? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My strong hunch is that, because I experienced WWII as a >> preschooler >>>> who >>>>>>> became obsessed with the war. All during my boyood I read fictional >>> and >>>>>>> historical accounts of the war. In later years that war was >> depicted >>>> over >>>>>>> and over again in films from the Guns of Navarone to Private Ryan's >>> war >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> a manner that fit with my childhood image of WW II German soldiers, >>> the >>>>>>> SS, >>>>>>> the Wermacht -- "krauts." To me, the image of the word kraut, seems >>> to >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> retained this primitive, early, persistent, organizing image. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of >>> shi, I >>>>>>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating >> the >>>>>>> knowledge that >>>>>>> >>>>>>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbabe. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Odd how mediation works. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary >> for >>>> the >>>>>>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard >>>>>>> family,including many >>>>>>> >>>>>>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?darn!? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with >> an >>>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Nov 24 16:05:09 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:05:09 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three In-Reply-To: <5654F95E.4040907@mira.net> References: <565400E1.2090205@mira.net> <5654F95E.4040907@mira.net> Message-ID: of course etymology is central to word meaning. All I meant was that I was not examining the etymology or kisli, kraut or capusta, or for the matter cabbage. Teach me to post notes on introspective analysis and write casually about them! Pologize mike On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 3:57 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > "Not have anything to do with" would not be quite right in my view. I have > always believed that the study of a word's etymology sheds light on the > concept it names, but mainly because it brings into relief the genesis of > the concept itself and its interconnections - puts the frame back into the > movie. > But to say that the "original" meaning of a word is the "true" meaning of > the word (or other symbol or practice) is called "the genetic fallacy." > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 25/11/2015 9:11 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> Now I am confused. How could a word's meaning not have anything to do >> with >> etymology? :) >> >> Huw >> >> On 24 November 2015 at 21:49, mike cole wrote: >> >> The word, pickle, never occurred to me, Tom. Kisli I immediately equated >>> with sour. It was the kraut part that I was opaque. That part of my >>> example >>> had nothing to do with etymology, Huw. My wife reminded me of it when I >>> reported the first part. >>> >>> So complicated to communicate about such experiences. And of course open >>> to >>> multiple interpretations. Still, I like mine...of course! :-) >>> Mike >>> >>> On Tuesday, November 24, 2015, Tom Richardson < >>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >>> >>> To butt in again - surely 'sauer' also means 'acidic' - pickled cabbage? >>>> Tom >>>> Middlesbrough UK >>>> >>>> On 24 November 2015 at 16:31, Huw Lloyd >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I wouldn't have thought that a prior meaning blocks the path to the >>>>> >>>> primary >>>> >>>>> meaning necessarily. The norm, it seems, is that we are unaware of the >>>>> etymological roots of words. And that unless one was practiced at >>>>> questioning the structure of the word forms then a discovery is not >>>>> >>>> really >>>> >>>>> blocked as so much as never sought in the first place. Personally, it >>>>> seems to me that when I enquire into an etymological meaning and find >>>>> >>>> it >>> >>>> consonant with a a more pervasive (though little understood) >>>>> >>>> understanding, >>>> >>>>> I take some temporary satisfaction in one more accounting in the >>>>> >>>> reckoning >>>> >>>>> against our stupid society. >>>>> >>>>> As for (sauer)kraut, I think we could say the same for the more >>>>> contemporary neo-liberal. Both terms point back to the speaker (and >>>>> artificer) of the word's confusions and sour-grapes which are projected >>>>> onto the protagonist -- such is war and politics. >>>>> >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 24 November 2015 at 06:17, Andy Blunden >>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> You've got a good head on your shoulders, Mike! >>>>>> andy >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>>> >>>>>> On 24/11/2015 3:25 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Oops, i should have proof read before rushing off. here is a >>>>>>> >>>>>> slightly >>> >>>> cleaner text. Same ideas. :-) >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> ------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I >>>>>>> >>>>>> said, >>>>> >>>>>> "Lets make that a part of the repertoire and my mind drifted to a >>>>>>> >>>>>> search >>>> >>>>> for other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. >>>>>>> >>>>>> "Shi," >>>> >>>>> I >>>>> >>>>>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" >>>>>>> >>>>>> Sheila >>>> >>>>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has >>>>>>> >>>>>> good >>>> >>>>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." >>>>>>> >>>>>> Then I >>>>> >>>>>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into >>>>>>> >>>>>> Russian. >>>>> >>>>>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to >>>>>>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage >>>>>>> >>>>>> soup, >>>>> >>>>>> or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to >>>>>>> >>>>>> myself, >>> >>>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never >>>>>>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, >>>>>>> >>>>>> even >>>> >>>>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of >>>>>>> >>>>>> course >>> >>>> say >>>>> >>>>>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from >>>>>>> remembering the delicious smell of schi? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My strong hunch is that the answer lies with the fact that I >>>>>>> >>>>>> experienced >>>> >>>>> WWII as a preschooler who became obsessed with the war. All during >>>>>>> >>>>>> my >>> >>>> boyood I read countless fictional and historical accounts of the >>>>>>> >>>>>> war. >>> >>>> The, >>>>> >>>>>> and in later years that war was depicted over and over again in >>>>>>> >>>>>> films >>> >>>> from >>>>> >>>>>> the Guns of Navaronne to Private Ryan's war in a manner that fit >>>>>>> >>>>>> with >>> >>>> my >>>> >>>>> childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the SS, the Wermacht -- >>>>>>> "krauts." >>>>>>> To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to have retained this >>>>>>> >>>>>> primitive, >>>>> >>>>>> early, persistent, organizing image. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of >>>>>>> >>>>>> shi, >>> >>>> I >>>> >>>>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating >>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>> >>>> knowledge that >>>>>>> >>>>>>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbage. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Odd how mediation works. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary >>>>>>> >>>>>> for >>> >>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard >>>>>>> family,including many >>>>>>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:16 PM, mike cole >>>>>> >>>>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> the following observations might be of interest. I wonder if others >>>>>>> >>>>>> have >>>> >>>>> had similar experiences. The dynamics of language and the paths of >>>>>>>> mediation seem to be clear to me, but maybe that is just an >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> illusory >>> >>>> artifact of reporting on introspective reports. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> what, as Dr. Matusov is fond of asking, do you think? >>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> said, >>>>> >>>>>> "Lets make that a part of the repetoir and my mind drifted to a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> search >>>> >>>>> for >>>>>>>> other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Shi," I >>> >>>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sheila >>>> >>>>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> good >>>> >>>>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Then >>>>> >>>>>> I >>>>>>>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into >>>>>>>> Russian. >>>>>>>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>> >>>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> cabbage >>> >>>> soup, or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to >>>>>>>> myself, >>>>>>>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> never >>> >>>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> even >>>> >>>>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> course >>> >>>> say >>>>> >>>>>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from >>>>>>>> remembering the delicious smell of schi? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My strong hunch is that, because I experienced WWII as a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> preschooler >>> >>>> who >>>>> >>>>>> became obsessed with the war. All during my boyood I read fictional >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> and >>>> >>>>> historical accounts of the war. In later years that war was >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> depicted >>> >>>> over >>>>> >>>>>> and over again in films from the Guns of Navarone to Private Ryan's >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> war >>>> >>>>> in >>>>>>>> a manner that fit with my childhood image of WW II German soldiers, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>> >>>>> SS, >>>>>>>> the Wermacht -- "krauts." To me, the image of the word kraut, seems >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>> >>>>> have >>>>>>>> retained this primitive, early, persistent, organizing image. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> shi, I >>>> >>>>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>> >>>> knowledge that >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbabe. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Odd how mediation works. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> for >>> >>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard >>>>>>>> family,including many >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?darn!? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> an >>> >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> -- >>> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>> >>> > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Nov 24 17:27:20 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 01:27:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three In-Reply-To: <5654F95E.4040907@mira.net> References: <565400E1.2090205@mira.net> <5654F95E.4040907@mira.net> Message-ID: Quite so, Andy. But what concept is being used when someone refers to their "teacher", "manager" or "supervisor". These institutionalised terms have little to do with their authentic/innocent meanings. "Team lead" is surely on the way too, and presumably "mentor" is under assault (to the degree of its co-option in an institution). :) Huw On 24 November 2015 at 23:57, Andy Blunden wrote: > "Not have anything to do with" would not be quite right in my view. I have > always believed that the study of a word's etymology sheds light on the > concept it names, but mainly because it brings into relief the genesis of > the concept itself and its interconnections - puts the frame back into the > movie. > But to say that the "original" meaning of a word is the "true" meaning of > the word (or other symbol or practice) is called "the genetic fallacy." > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 25/11/2015 9:11 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> Now I am confused. How could a word's meaning not have anything to do >> with >> etymology? :) >> >> Huw >> >> On 24 November 2015 at 21:49, mike cole wrote: >> >> The word, pickle, never occurred to me, Tom. Kisli I immediately equated >>> with sour. It was the kraut part that I was opaque. That part of my >>> example >>> had nothing to do with etymology, Huw. My wife reminded me of it when I >>> reported the first part. >>> >>> So complicated to communicate about such experiences. And of course open >>> to >>> multiple interpretations. Still, I like mine...of course! :-) >>> Mike >>> >>> On Tuesday, November 24, 2015, Tom Richardson < >>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >>> >>> To butt in again - surely 'sauer' also means 'acidic' - pickled cabbage? >>>> Tom >>>> Middlesbrough UK >>>> >>>> On 24 November 2015 at 16:31, Huw Lloyd >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I wouldn't have thought that a prior meaning blocks the path to the >>>>> >>>> primary >>>> >>>>> meaning necessarily. The norm, it seems, is that we are unaware of the >>>>> etymological roots of words. And that unless one was practiced at >>>>> questioning the structure of the word forms then a discovery is not >>>>> >>>> really >>>> >>>>> blocked as so much as never sought in the first place. Personally, it >>>>> seems to me that when I enquire into an etymological meaning and find >>>>> >>>> it >>> >>>> consonant with a a more pervasive (though little understood) >>>>> >>>> understanding, >>>> >>>>> I take some temporary satisfaction in one more accounting in the >>>>> >>>> reckoning >>>> >>>>> against our stupid society. >>>>> >>>>> As for (sauer)kraut, I think we could say the same for the more >>>>> contemporary neo-liberal. Both terms point back to the speaker (and >>>>> artificer) of the word's confusions and sour-grapes which are projected >>>>> onto the protagonist -- such is war and politics. >>>>> >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 24 November 2015 at 06:17, Andy Blunden >>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> You've got a good head on your shoulders, Mike! >>>>>> andy >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>>> >>>>>> On 24/11/2015 3:25 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Oops, i should have proof read before rushing off. here is a >>>>>>> >>>>>> slightly >>> >>>> cleaner text. Same ideas. :-) >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> ------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I >>>>>>> >>>>>> said, >>>>> >>>>>> "Lets make that a part of the repertoire and my mind drifted to a >>>>>>> >>>>>> search >>>> >>>>> for other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. >>>>>>> >>>>>> "Shi," >>>> >>>>> I >>>>> >>>>>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" >>>>>>> >>>>>> Sheila >>>> >>>>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has >>>>>>> >>>>>> good >>>> >>>>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." >>>>>>> >>>>>> Then I >>>>> >>>>>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into >>>>>>> >>>>>> Russian. >>>>> >>>>>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to >>>>>>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage >>>>>>> >>>>>> soup, >>>>> >>>>>> or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to >>>>>>> >>>>>> myself, >>> >>>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never >>>>>>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, >>>>>>> >>>>>> even >>>> >>>>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of >>>>>>> >>>>>> course >>> >>>> say >>>>> >>>>>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from >>>>>>> remembering the delicious smell of schi? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My strong hunch is that the answer lies with the fact that I >>>>>>> >>>>>> experienced >>>> >>>>> WWII as a preschooler who became obsessed with the war. All during >>>>>>> >>>>>> my >>> >>>> boyood I read countless fictional and historical accounts of the >>>>>>> >>>>>> war. >>> >>>> The, >>>>> >>>>>> and in later years that war was depicted over and over again in >>>>>>> >>>>>> films >>> >>>> from >>>>> >>>>>> the Guns of Navaronne to Private Ryan's war in a manner that fit >>>>>>> >>>>>> with >>> >>>> my >>>> >>>>> childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the SS, the Wermacht -- >>>>>>> "krauts." >>>>>>> To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to have retained this >>>>>>> >>>>>> primitive, >>>>> >>>>>> early, persistent, organizing image. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of >>>>>>> >>>>>> shi, >>> >>>> I >>>> >>>>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating >>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>> >>>> knowledge that >>>>>>> >>>>>>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbage. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Odd how mediation works. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary >>>>>>> >>>>>> for >>> >>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard >>>>>>> family,including many >>>>>>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:16 PM, mike cole >>>>>> >>>>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> the following observations might be of interest. I wonder if others >>>>>>> >>>>>> have >>>> >>>>> had similar experiences. The dynamics of language and the paths of >>>>>>>> mediation seem to be clear to me, but maybe that is just an >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> illusory >>> >>>> artifact of reporting on introspective reports. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> what, as Dr. Matusov is fond of asking, do you think? >>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> said, >>>>> >>>>>> "Lets make that a part of the repetoir and my mind drifted to a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> search >>>> >>>>> for >>>>>>>> other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Shi," I >>> >>>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sheila >>>> >>>>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> good >>>> >>>>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Then >>>>> >>>>>> I >>>>>>>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into >>>>>>>> Russian. >>>>>>>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>> >>>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> cabbage >>> >>>> soup, or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to >>>>>>>> myself, >>>>>>>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> never >>> >>>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> even >>>> >>>>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> course >>> >>>> say >>>>> >>>>>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from >>>>>>>> remembering the delicious smell of schi? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My strong hunch is that, because I experienced WWII as a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> preschooler >>> >>>> who >>>>> >>>>>> became obsessed with the war. All during my boyood I read fictional >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> and >>>> >>>>> historical accounts of the war. In later years that war was >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> depicted >>> >>>> over >>>>> >>>>>> and over again in films from the Guns of Navarone to Private Ryan's >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> war >>>> >>>>> in >>>>>>>> a manner that fit with my childhood image of WW II German soldiers, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>> >>>>> SS, >>>>>>>> the Wermacht -- "krauts." To me, the image of the word kraut, seems >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>> >>>>> have >>>>>>>> retained this primitive, early, persistent, organizing image. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> shi, I >>>> >>>>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>> >>>> knowledge that >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbabe. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Odd how mediation works. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> for >>> >>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard >>>>>>>> family,including many >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?darn!? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> an >>> >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> -- >>> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>> >>> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Nov 24 17:43:25 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:43:25 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three In-Reply-To: References: <565400E1.2090205@mira.net> <5654F95E.4040907@mira.net> Message-ID: <56551251.0701620a.b2de5.6fd0@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- From: "mike cole" Sent: ?2015-?11-?24 4:07 PM To: "Andy Blunden" ; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three of course etymology is central to word meaning. All I meant was that I was not examining the etymology or kisli, kraut or capusta, or for the matter cabbage. Teach me to post notes on introspective analysis and write casually about them! Pologize mike On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 3:57 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > "Not have anything to do with" would not be quite right in my view. I have > always believed that the study of a word's etymology sheds light on the > concept it names, but mainly because it brings into relief the genesis of > the concept itself and its interconnections - puts the frame back into the > movie. > But to say that the "original" meaning of a word is the "true" meaning of > the word (or other symbol or practice) is called "the genetic fallacy." > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 25/11/2015 9:11 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> Now I am confused. How could a word's meaning not have anything to do >> with >> etymology? :) >> >> Huw >> >> On 24 November 2015 at 21:49, mike cole wrote: >> >> The word, pickle, never occurred to me, Tom. Kisli I immediately equated >>> with sour. It was the kraut part that I was opaque. That part of my >>> example >>> had nothing to do with etymology, Huw. My wife reminded me of it when I >>> reported the first part. >>> >>> So complicated to communicate about such experiences. And of course open >>> to >>> multiple interpretations. Still, I like mine...of course! :-) >>> Mike >>> >>> On Tuesday, November 24, 2015, Tom Richardson < >>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >>> >>> To butt in again - surely 'sauer' also means 'acidic' - pickled cabbage? >>>> Tom >>>> Middlesbrough UK >>>> >>>> On 24 November 2015 at 16:31, Huw Lloyd >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I wouldn't have thought that a prior meaning blocks the path to the >>>>> >>>> primary >>>> >>>>> meaning necessarily. The norm, it seems, is that we are unaware of the >>>>> etymological roots of words. And that unless one was practiced at >>>>> questioning the structure of the word forms then a discovery is not >>>>> >>>> really >>>> >>>>> blocked as so much as never sought in the first place. Personally, it >>>>> seems to me that when I enquire into an etymological meaning and find >>>>> >>>> it >>> >>>> consonant with a a more pervasive (though little understood) >>>>> >>>> understanding, >>>> >>>>> I take some temporary satisfaction in one more accounting in the >>>>> >>>> reckoning >>>> >>>>> against our stupid society. >>>>> >>>>> As for (sauer)kraut, I think we could say the same for the more >>>>> contemporary neo-liberal. Both terms point back to the speaker (and >>>>> artificer) of the word's confusions and sour-grapes which are projected >>>>> onto the protagonist -- such is war and politics. >>>>> >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 24 November 2015 at 06:17, Andy Blunden >>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> You've got a good head on your shoulders, Mike! >>>>>> andy >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>>> >>>>>> On 24/11/2015 3:25 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Oops, i should have proof read before rushing off. here is a >>>>>>> >>>>>> slightly >>> >>>> cleaner text. Same ideas. :-) >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> ------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I >>>>>>> >>>>>> said, >>>>> >>>>>> "Lets make that a part of the repertoire and my mind drifted to a >>>>>>> >>>>>> search >>>> >>>>> for other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. >>>>>>> >>>>>> "Shi," >>>> >>>>> I >>>>> >>>>>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" >>>>>>> >>>>>> Sheila >>>> >>>>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has >>>>>>> >>>>>> good >>>> >>>>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." >>>>>>> >>>>>> Then I >>>>> >>>>>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into >>>>>>> >>>>>> Russian. >>>>> >>>>>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to >>>>>>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage >>>>>>> >>>>>> soup, >>>>> >>>>>> or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to >>>>>>> >>>>>> myself, >>> >>>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never >>>>>>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, >>>>>>> >>>>>> even >>>> >>>>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of >>>>>>> >>>>>> course >>> >>>> say >>>>> >>>>>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from >>>>>>> remembering the delicious smell of schi? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My strong hunch is that the answer lies with the fact that I >>>>>>> >>>>>> experienced >>>> >>>>> WWII as a preschooler who became obsessed with the war. All during >>>>>>> >>>>>> my >>> >>>> boyood I read countless fictional and historical accounts of the >>>>>>> >>>>>> war. >>> >>>> The, >>>>> >>>>>> and in later years that war was depicted over and over again in >>>>>>> >>>>>> films >>> >>>> from >>>>> >>>>>> the Guns of Navaronne to Private Ryan's war in a manner that fit >>>>>>> >>>>>> with >>> >>>> my >>>> >>>>> childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the SS, the Wermacht -- >>>>>>> "krauts." >>>>>>> To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to have retained this >>>>>>> >>>>>> primitive, >>>>> >>>>>> early, persistent, organizing image. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of >>>>>>> >>>>>> shi, >>> >>>> I >>>> >>>>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating >>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>> >>>> knowledge that >>>>>>> >>>>>>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbage. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Odd how mediation works. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary >>>>>>> >>>>>> for >>> >>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard >>>>>>> family,including many >>>>>>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:16 PM, mike cole >>>>>> >>>>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> the following observations might be of interest. I wonder if others >>>>>>> >>>>>> have >>>> >>>>> had similar experiences. The dynamics of language and the paths of >>>>>>>> mediation seem to be clear to me, but maybe that is just an >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> illusory >>> >>>> artifact of reporting on introspective reports. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> what, as Dr. Matusov is fond of asking, do you think? >>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> said, >>>>> >>>>>> "Lets make that a part of the repetoir and my mind drifted to a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> search >>>> >>>>> for >>>>>>>> other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Shi," I >>> >>>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sheila >>>> >>>>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> good >>>> >>>>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Then >>>>> >>>>>> I >>>>>>>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into >>>>>>>> Russian. >>>>>>>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>> >>>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> cabbage >>> >>>> soup, or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to >>>>>>>> myself, >>>>>>>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> never >>> >>>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> even >>>> >>>>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> course >>> >>>> say >>>>> >>>>>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from >>>>>>>> remembering the delicious smell of schi? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My strong hunch is that, because I experienced WWII as a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> preschooler >>> >>>> who >>>>> >>>>>> became obsessed with the war. All during my boyood I read fictional >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> and >>>> >>>>> historical accounts of the war. In later years that war was >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> depicted >>> >>>> over >>>>> >>>>>> and over again in films from the Guns of Navarone to Private Ryan's >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> war >>>> >>>>> in >>>>>>>> a manner that fit with my childhood image of WW II German soldiers, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>> >>>>> SS, >>>>>>>> the Wermacht -- "krauts." To me, the image of the word kraut, seems >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>> >>>>> have >>>>>>>> retained this primitive, early, persistent, organizing image. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> shi, I >>>> >>>>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>> >>>> knowledge that >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbabe. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Odd how mediation works. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> for >>> >>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard >>>>>>>> family,including many >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?darn!? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> an >>> >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> -- >>> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>> >>> > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From ablunden@mira.net Tue Nov 24 17:58:23 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:58:23 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three In-Reply-To: References: <565400E1.2090205@mira.net> <5654F95E.4040907@mira.net> Message-ID: <565515BF.3020709@mira.net> I suppose I am talking about etymology as an insight into the institutions rather than the words. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 25/11/2015 12:27 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Quite so, Andy. But what concept is being used when > someone refers to their "teacher", "manager" or > "supervisor". These institutionalised terms have little > to do with their authentic/innocent meanings. "Team lead" > is surely on the way too, and presumably "mentor" is under > assault (to the degree of its co-option in an > institution). :) > > Huw > > On 24 November 2015 at 23:57, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > "Not have anything to do with" would not be quite > right in my view. I have always believed that the > study of a word's etymology sheds light on the concept > it names, but mainly because it brings into relief the > genesis of the concept itself and its interconnections > - puts the frame back into the movie. > But to say that the "original" meaning of a word is > the "true" meaning of the word (or other symbol or > practice) is called "the genetic fallacy." > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > On 25/11/2015 9:11 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > Now I am confused. How could a word's meaning not > have anything to do with > etymology? :) > > Huw > > On 24 November 2015 at 21:49, mike cole > > wrote: > > The word, pickle, never occurred to me, Tom. > Kisli I immediately equated > with sour. It was the kraut part that I was > opaque. That part of my example > had nothing to do with etymology, Huw. My wife > reminded me of it when I > reported the first part. > > So complicated to communicate about such > experiences. And of course open to > multiple interpretations. Still, I like > mine...of course! :-) > Mike > > On Tuesday, November 24, 2015, Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com > > wrote: > > To butt in again - surely 'sauer' also > means 'acidic' - pickled cabbage? > Tom > Middlesbrough UK > > On 24 November 2015 at 16:31, Huw Lloyd > > > wrote: > > I wouldn't have thought that a prior > meaning blocks the path to the > > primary > > meaning necessarily. The norm, it > seems, is that we are unaware of the > etymological roots of words. And that > unless one was practiced at > questioning the structure of the word > forms then a discovery is not > > really > > blocked as so much as never sought in > the first place. Personally, it > seems to me that when I enquire into > an etymological meaning and find > > it > > consonant with a a more pervasive > (though little understood) > > understanding, > > I take some temporary satisfaction in > one more accounting in the > > reckoning > > against our stupid society. > > As for (sauer)kraut, I think we could > say the same for the more > contemporary neo-liberal. Both terms > point back to the speaker (and > artificer) of the word's confusions > and sour-grapes which are projected > onto the protagonist -- such is war > and politics. > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > > On 24 November 2015 at 06:17, Andy > Blunden > > > wrote: > > You've got a good head on your > shoulders, Mike! > andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > On 24/11/2015 3:25 PM, mike cole > wrote: > > Oops, i should have proof read > before rushing off. here is a > > slightly > > cleaner text. Same ideas. :-) > mike > ------------- > > Two paths of mediated thought > through three languages. > > > > The topic arose because we > were eating an almost great > chiappino. I > > said, > > "Lets make that a part of the > repertoire and my mind drifted > to a > > search > > for other soups I love, but > have not experienced in a long > time. > > "Shi," > > I > > suggested. Shi is a soup made > from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" > > Sheila > > replied. "I was think we > should find a Russian > restaurant that has > > good > > shi," I responded. That way, > you could have something you > do like." > > Then I > > thought about the properties > of good shi and I code > switched into > > Russian. > > "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a > heavy emphasis on the word, > kisli, to > emphasize that is *sour * > kapusta in contrast with the > usual cabbage > > soup, > > or the kind of cabbage you > have in borscht. Then I thought to > > myself, > > kisli-sour ..... oh, the > *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! > > > > I remarked to Sheila that it > was remarkable that I had > somehow never > connected the word kraut, as > in sour kraut, with the word > cabbage, > > even > > though it you asked me what > sour kraut was made of, I would of > > course > > say > > cabbage. Why did I have to > discover that kraut means > cabbage from > remembering the delicious > smell of schi? > > > > My strong hunch is that the > answer lies with the fact that I > > experienced > > WWII as a preschooler who > became obsessed with the war. > All during > > my > > boyood I read countless > fictional and historical > accounts of the > > war. > > The, > > and in later years that war > was depicted over and over > again in > > films > > from > > the Guns of Navaronne to > Private Ryan's war in a manner > that fit > > with > > my > > childhood image of WW II > German soldiers, the SS, the > Wermacht -- > "krauts." > To me, the image of the word > kraut, seems to have retained this > > primitive, > > early, persistent, organizing > image. > > > > Because the word, kraut, was > already occupied, when I > thought of > > shi, > > I > > was, it seems, thinking > kisli/sour kapusta, without > incorporating > > the > > knowledge that > > kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbage. > > > > Odd how mediation works. > > And odd too, that my name is > Cole. If you look in the > dictionary > > for > > the > > definition of the word, cole, > you will find something like this: > > > > "any plant belonging to the > genus Brassica, of the mustard > family,including many > economically important > vegetables, such as > *cabbage.*....... > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:16 > PM, mike cole > > > wrote: > > the following observations > might be of interest. I wonder > if others > > have > > had similar experiences. > The dynamics of language > and the paths of > mediation seem to be clear > to me, but maybe that is > just an > > illusory > > artifact of reporting on > introspective reports. > > what, as Dr. Matusov is > fond of asking, do you think? > mike > -------------------------------------------- > Two paths of mediated > thought through three > languages. > > > > The topic arose because we > were eating an almost > great chiappino. I > > said, > > "Lets make that a part of > the repetoir and my mind > drifted to a > > search > > for > other soups I love, but > have not experienced in a > long time. > > "Shi," I > > suggested. Shi is a soup > made from saurkraut. "I > don't like shi" > > Sheila > > replied. "I was think we > should find a Russian > restaurant that has > > good > > shi," I responded. That > way, you could have > something you do like." > > Then > > I > thought about the > properties of good shi and > I code switched into > Russian. > "Kisli kapusta, I said, > with a heavy emphasis on > the word, kisli, > > to > > emphasize that is *sour * > kapusta in contrast with > the usual > > cabbage > > soup, or the kind of > cabbage you have in > borscht. Then I thought to > myself, > kisli-sour ..... oh, the > *kraut *part of shi means > cabbage! > > > > I remarked to Sheila that > it was remarkable that I > had somehow > > never > > connected the word kraut, > as in sour kraut, with the > word cabbage, > > even > > though it you asked me > what sour kraut was made > of, I would of > > course > > say > > cabbage. Why did I have to > discover that kraut means > cabbage from > remembering the delicious > smell of schi? > > > > My strong hunch is that, > because I experienced WWII > as a > > preschooler > > who > > became obsessed with the > war. All during my boyood > I read fictional > > and > > historical accounts of the > war. In later years that > war was > > depicted > > over > > and over again in films > from the Guns of Navarone > to Private Ryan's > > war > > in > a manner that fit with my > childhood image of WW II > German soldiers, > > the > > SS, > the Wermacht -- "krauts." > To me, the image of the > word kraut, seems > > to > > have > retained this primitive, > early, persistent, > organizing image. > > > > Because the word, kraut, > was already occupied, when > I thought of > > shi, I > > was, it seems, thinking > kisli/sour kapusta, > without incorporating > > the > > knowledge that > > kapusta =kraut--> > kraut=cabbabe. > > > > Odd how mediation works. > > And odd too, that my name > is Cole. If you look in > the dictionary > > for > > the > > definition of the word, > cole, you will find > something like this: > > > > > "any plant belonging to > the genus Brassica, of the > mustard > family,including many > > economically important > vegetables, such as > *cabbage.*....... > > > ?darn!? > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of > psychology to deal as a > natural science with > > an > > object that creates > history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a > natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Nov 24 18:00:38 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 18:00:38 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three In-Reply-To: References: <565400E1.2090205@mira.net> <5654F95E.4040907@mira.net> Message-ID: <5655165a.e9d9420a.93086.ffff8383@mx.google.com> Mike, This introspective analysis, generated from a space of reflection trails your deep knowledge of this question of three languages and how meaning is mediated. I will refer back to Andy when he offered 5 different ways we were using the concept (object). Mike, what I want to raise up is the way you introspectively related the word (kraut) to the image (kraut). Your reflection that this image from your youth dominated or amplified this particular idiosyncratic meaning leaving a recognition of a particular personal meaning. It is the way this relation of image meaning and word meaning which phenomenological analysis interanimates that I find a fascinating focus of inquiry -----Original Message----- From: "mike cole" Sent: ?2015-?11-?24 4:07 PM To: "Andy Blunden" ; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three of course etymology is central to word meaning. All I meant was that I was not examining the etymology or kisli, kraut or capusta, or for the matter cabbage. Teach me to post notes on introspective analysis and write casually about them! Pologize mike On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 3:57 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > "Not have anything to do with" would not be quite right in my view. I have > always believed that the study of a word's etymology sheds light on the > concept it names, but mainly because it brings into relief the genesis of > the concept itself and its interconnections - puts the frame back into the > movie. > But to say that the "original" meaning of a word is the "true" meaning of > the word (or other symbol or practice) is called "the genetic fallacy." > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 25/11/2015 9:11 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> Now I am confused. How could a word's meaning not have anything to do >> with >> etymology? :) >> >> Huw >> >> On 24 November 2015 at 21:49, mike cole wrote: >> >> The word, pickle, never occurred to me, Tom. Kisli I immediately equated >>> with sour. It was the kraut part that I was opaque. That part of my >>> example >>> had nothing to do with etymology, Huw. My wife reminded me of it when I >>> reported the first part. >>> >>> So complicated to communicate about such experiences. And of course open >>> to >>> multiple interpretations. Still, I like mine...of course! :-) >>> Mike >>> >>> On Tuesday, November 24, 2015, Tom Richardson < >>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote: >>> >>> To butt in again - surely 'sauer' also means 'acidic' - pickled cabbage? >>>> Tom >>>> Middlesbrough UK >>>> >>>> On 24 November 2015 at 16:31, Huw Lloyd >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I wouldn't have thought that a prior meaning blocks the path to the >>>>> >>>> primary >>>> >>>>> meaning necessarily. The norm, it seems, is that we are unaware of the >>>>> etymological roots of words. And that unless one was practiced at >>>>> questioning the structure of the word forms then a discovery is not >>>>> >>>> really >>>> >>>>> blocked as so much as never sought in the first place. Personally, it >>>>> seems to me that when I enquire into an etymological meaning and find >>>>> >>>> it >>> >>>> consonant with a a more pervasive (though little understood) >>>>> >>>> understanding, >>>> >>>>> I take some temporary satisfaction in one more accounting in the >>>>> >>>> reckoning >>>> >>>>> against our stupid society. >>>>> >>>>> As for (sauer)kraut, I think we could say the same for the more >>>>> contemporary neo-liberal. Both terms point back to the speaker (and >>>>> artificer) of the word's confusions and sour-grapes which are projected >>>>> onto the protagonist -- such is war and politics. >>>>> >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 24 November 2015 at 06:17, Andy Blunden >>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> You've got a good head on your shoulders, Mike! >>>>>> andy >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>>> >>>>>> On 24/11/2015 3:25 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Oops, i should have proof read before rushing off. here is a >>>>>>> >>>>>> slightly >>> >>>> cleaner text. Same ideas. :-) >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> ------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I >>>>>>> >>>>>> said, >>>>> >>>>>> "Lets make that a part of the repertoire and my mind drifted to a >>>>>>> >>>>>> search >>>> >>>>> for other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. >>>>>>> >>>>>> "Shi," >>>> >>>>> I >>>>> >>>>>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" >>>>>>> >>>>>> Sheila >>>> >>>>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has >>>>>>> >>>>>> good >>>> >>>>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." >>>>>>> >>>>>> Then I >>>>> >>>>>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into >>>>>>> >>>>>> Russian. >>>>> >>>>>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to >>>>>>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage >>>>>>> >>>>>> soup, >>>>> >>>>>> or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to >>>>>>> >>>>>> myself, >>> >>>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never >>>>>>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, >>>>>>> >>>>>> even >>>> >>>>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of >>>>>>> >>>>>> course >>> >>>> say >>>>> >>>>>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from >>>>>>> remembering the delicious smell of schi? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My strong hunch is that the answer lies with the fact that I >>>>>>> >>>>>> experienced >>>> >>>>> WWII as a preschooler who became obsessed with the war. All during >>>>>>> >>>>>> my >>> >>>> boyood I read countless fictional and historical accounts of the >>>>>>> >>>>>> war. >>> >>>> The, >>>>> >>>>>> and in later years that war was depicted over and over again in >>>>>>> >>>>>> films >>> >>>> from >>>>> >>>>>> the Guns of Navaronne to Private Ryan's war in a manner that fit >>>>>>> >>>>>> with >>> >>>> my >>>> >>>>> childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the SS, the Wermacht -- >>>>>>> "krauts." >>>>>>> To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to have retained this >>>>>>> >>>>>> primitive, >>>>> >>>>>> early, persistent, organizing image. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of >>>>>>> >>>>>> shi, >>> >>>> I >>>> >>>>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating >>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>> >>>> knowledge that >>>>>>> >>>>>>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbage. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Odd how mediation works. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary >>>>>>> >>>>>> for >>> >>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard >>>>>>> family,including many >>>>>>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:16 PM, mike cole >>>>>> >>>>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> the following observations might be of interest. I wonder if others >>>>>>> >>>>>> have >>>> >>>>> had similar experiences. The dynamics of language and the paths of >>>>>>>> mediation seem to be clear to me, but maybe that is just an >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> illusory >>> >>>> artifact of reporting on introspective reports. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> what, as Dr. Matusov is fond of asking, do you think? >>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> said, >>>>> >>>>>> "Lets make that a part of the repetoir and my mind drifted to a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> search >>>> >>>>> for >>>>>>>> other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Shi," I >>> >>>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sheila >>>> >>>>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> good >>>> >>>>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Then >>>>> >>>>>> I >>>>>>>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into >>>>>>>> Russian. >>>>>>>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>> >>>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> cabbage >>> >>>> soup, or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to >>>>>>>> myself, >>>>>>>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> never >>> >>>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> even >>>> >>>>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> course >>> >>>> say >>>>> >>>>>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from >>>>>>>> remembering the delicious smell of schi? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My strong hunch is that, because I experienced WWII as a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> preschooler >>> >>>> who >>>>> >>>>>> became obsessed with the war. All during my boyood I read fictional >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> and >>>> >>>>> historical accounts of the war. In later years that war was >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> depicted >>> >>>> over >>>>> >>>>>> and over again in films from the Guns of Navarone to Private Ryan's >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> war >>>> >>>>> in >>>>>>>> a manner that fit with my childhood image of WW II German soldiers, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>> >>>>> SS, >>>>>>>> the Wermacht -- "krauts." To me, the image of the word kraut, seems >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>> >>>>> have >>>>>>>> retained this primitive, early, persistent, organizing image. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> shi, I >>>> >>>>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>> >>>> knowledge that >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbabe. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Odd how mediation works. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And odd too, that my name is Cole. If you look in the dictionary >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> for >>> >>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard >>>>>>>> family,including many >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*....... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?darn!? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> an >>> >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> -- >>> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>> >>> > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch