[Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy

[Martin John Packer]

In my view this normative dimension has to be central to any account of human ontogenesis. I think Tomasello, and collaborators such as Hannes Rakoczy, are on the right track here, but in my view they don't draw some necessary distinctions. Children don't simply deal with, and come to understand, different kinds of norms, any more than they do different kinds of roles. It seems to me that we need to distinguish among the customary use of artifacts, taken for granted social conventions, institutional rules and roles, and the deontological aspect of living in complex systems of institutions. This is the sequence, in my view, in which children develop an understanding of the social world in which they live. 

Martin

On Mar 21, 2015, at 9:02 PM, Helen Harper <helen.harper@bigpond.com> wrote:

> I’m intrigued by Michael Tomasello’s discussion here about children taking on normative behaviours, and the idea that they come to represent a group or a culture through those behaviours.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtf2btmfPgw <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtf2btmfPgw>
> 
> I wonder if this is consistent with your view Andy?
> Helen
> 
>> On 22 Mar 2015, at 10:08 am, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>> 
>> p. 365, "The Child's Psyche":
>> 
>> "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not to buy it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests a schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks for a toy to be bought. These requests have a different sense not only for its parents but above all for the child itself."
>> 
>> I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is little to do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the normative series of roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as well as the modern life of a child.
>> 
>> Andy
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>> 
>> 
>> Peg Griffin wrote:
>>> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's "Problems in the Development of Mind:"  A child not yet going to school and a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy pencils or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need for the older one.   I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not just in my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural institutions impact one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and then there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual.
>>> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this might be in the Leontiev book.  Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far away from the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! ] Peg
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>