From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sun Mar 1 00:19:23 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 08:19:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fw: Re: The world of freedom AND historical Ontology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2134770504.678494.1425197963340.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Larry, Be sure I'm keen on understanding you and I will succeed . I don't know about others but with me , as we have talked about , I'd rather you be brief and take into account what viewpoint the other is presenting you . No doubt you understand us and you're conscious of what you write and the connections you establish . It's my weakness that I'm not familiar with different terminologies . I usually concentrate on what Vygotsky gives us and that's not a so easy task . Thanks for the explications , Larry .? Truly From: Larry Purss To: Haydi Zulfei Cc: eXtended Culture Activity Sent: Saturday, 28 February 2015, 21:39:49 Subject: Re: Fw: [Xmca-l] Re: The world of freedom AND historical Ontology Haydi,Yes, I also sense a convergence between my jargon which is a hybrid mixing up of traditions traditions and what you have expressed as ways of acting in the world. I gave a rather long preamble because the notion of "freedom" seems central to where we are heading potentially.? I wanted to situate the two dominant notions of freedom [negative freedom AS autonomy] and [positive freedom as expression of authentic self] as contrasted with the third alternative [freedom as situated].? Then I introduced what seems central for "situated freedom" is "spaces" or "places" and showed how Heidegger's language of "fields" and "clearings" are ways of describing this key concept of "metaphorically" imagined spaces/places which have the possibility or potential to "come into form".? The ethical?indicates the way or approach?of orienting towards these not yet but could be places? as places of "situated freedom".? It is in the act of bringing "to life" [to actuality] these "living forms" that the subject attains "freedom".? Freedom is immanent within the crystallized and sedimented forms as normative [Gadamer's prejudices or prejudgements] which each of us "brings" to our conversations [spoken and written].? However, though our prejudices is where we begin,? [the always already existing] it is through expanding our "horizons" within the already given and the application of this expanded awareness?through bringing into form potential could be places/spaces that freedom emerges within these emerging third spaces. If this commentary is read as "jargon" or "wordy"I am trying to understand the relation of Vygotskian concepts ?as emerging situated concepts?[living thoughts] which?were emerging in a historically situated time at the opening of the 20th century and how these notions of?being-in-the-world?were "conditioned" by multiple streams of thought [crystalized, normative, and open-ended]?which influenced the?way scholars asked and answered questions?at that time?and are now the current?"conditions" [as living words] for getting our bearings as we ask new questions about how we "ought" to proceed AND what types or kinds of spaces/places to create in which to be free. [and become certain "kinds" of persons.This way of questioning our "subject matter" is ALWAYS an ethical question and returns us to our shared living world and how we are to "act" with "ethical guidance" and with others in our expanding "horizons" of possibility [the could be] On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 8:06 AM, Haydi Zulfei wrote: Sorry ! ... metamorphosed into an insect ... a la Koffka's "Metamorphasis" ! ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Haydi Zulfei To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Saturday, 28 February 2015, 14:43:50 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The world of freedom AND historical Ontology Larry, Truly speaking , I see nothing in the piece to disagree with . Just it's a matter of "jargon" which complicates a take for concepts as I read in Vygotsky's works . I fear being warned if I take it paragraph by paragraph . I can take your being in the world and your "historical ontology" as man wishing to live enthusiastically with hope and conscious behaviour and perseverance in removing obstacles in the way . Francine also clarified the difference between the two types of conscious behaviour. I became very happy when Francine exposed her view on Vygotsky . By "ideals" , I didn't mean the highly desired ; I meant the reflection of the real world onto the mind ; here it's a matter of drives and motives to life . Ethics come from social norms and what if alienation becomes the social indispensable norm . By "situated freedom" , I take it not something given , innate . But something you should fight for . I wouldn't like being in the world as Sartre and Camus liked to be . You ARE and you want to remain the so-called independent individual you have been and you're to be . What befalls the "stranger" , the "Outsider" is catastrophic . What might come from a human being who's been metamorphosed into an instinct because of social pressures , disasters , calamities , ... ?. What might come from a decrepit mutilated outcast who has to talk to his own shadow in solitude as our Hedaayat narrates in his "The Blind Owl" .? "Stylized Mode of Being" comes to my rescue , however . 1. Thinking and Speech and the formation of concepts , the crowning of the word .2. True ! Man's wrestling with Nature , with the entities in the world through what comes out of dialogues and negotiations .3. We have a saying "The action-free knowledgeable man is a tree unyielding" . The true scholar finds the core problem in social life , resolves contradictions if any , builds up the personality according to the personal sense he gets from the society via hereditary temperaments . I cannot think of ethics as something additive or detached . Teach me the genetics of ethics , please .? A good friend of ours , knowledgeable as he is , told me now it's not a matter of the beginnings . It's a matter of whether we are in the middle or the end . He is quite right . Now what is due is reciprocity , interaction and if you please , dialectics between the two . Each enriches the other , no linear movement .? The finishing paragraphs give me clue to what I could take from what you wrote purposefully . Larry ! You write so much and so long and I have always tried to understand you ; now more comfortable with your script . Thank you so much ! Best Wishes ? ? ? ? From: Larry Purss To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Friday, 27 February 2015, 21:55:20 Subject: [Xmca-l] The world of freedom AND historical Ontology ? Haydi and Francine have continued the conversation on the understanding of functions and the origin in actions and activity. Haydi commented, Man now had to take one very big step further , farther . To have ideals , to let them penetrate cycles of activities to provide products to satisfy needs because the richest , ripest talk will not satisfy life needs . I want to introduce a book by Robert Nichols titled "The World of Freedom: Heidegger, Foucault and the Politics of Historical Ontology". [2014] I got this book from Kindle for around $10. I bought it because of his clear statement on shifting to "ethical questions" [to have ideals that PENETRATE cycles of activities]. Robert is making a case that freedom can be "thought" through notions of "ontology" and "situated freedom" This way of formulating "freedom" critiques notions of freedom as understood in terms of "a property OF the individual subject. Robert is making the case that freedom is a "mode of being-in-the-world". He states that as a mode this "kind" of reciprocal interrelationship [as Simmel understands reciprocal] AND "stylized mode" of being. This being-in-the-world seeks to "disclose" the mutual interrelatedness of 3 aspects of being. 1] the acquisition of knowledge 2] the appearance of a domain of entities about which knowledge claims can be made and most centrally 3] the "ethical transformation" of the "subject" [matter] of knowledge. [see Gadamer for a notion of subject matter as such] Robert's book is an attempt to disclose this 3 part reciprocal interrelatedness through a "working out" of the possibilities and potential "projected" [ideally] within the worldly activities "of" disclosure. THIS activity "makes" a horizon of intelligibility possible and thus [as subject matter] the "field" or "clearing" ON WHICH self-recognition and self-formation take "place" To "be free" is NOT to detach oneself from this [subject matter] this "field" or "clearing" THROUGH an act of cognitive reflection. Robert Nichols is making a claim that the reciprocal interrelation of freedom and historical ontology does not disclose the subject matter by an act of "cognitive reflection" but to "be free" is to be in a "mode" of relation TO the "field" or "clearing". This means to "cultivate" a certain *ethical attitude of awareness WITHIN the activities of disclosure that constitute the ontological ground of the field or clearing ITSELF" * In other words, this ethical "style" or "mode" IS to "take care" of the "field or clearing" and through the care of this field one takes care of the "self" Haydi mentioned action and activity as primary. Robert's approach to these questions of "situated freedom" as occurring as activity and action "of disclosure" within "fields or clearings".? I will circle back to the centrality of the imaginal in imagining these fields and clearings as coming into formation that enact fundamental "ethical styles or stances or positions" This is a kind of "third space" which honours activity that is fundamentally ethical enactments existing by "being-in-the-world" Robert Nichols, by bringing Heidegger and Foucault into conversation, believes he can offer clarity the activity of disclosing the interrelation of freedom and historical ontology as "acts of care" of the "field or clearing" which nurtures or cultivates this "subject matter" as such. I chose this book as I try to get clarity on the multiple notions of "third spaces" that require ethical stances or styles or modes to bring into potential being the ideal forms that have the "power" to change the pre-reflective crystliized sedimented formations we are born into.This is a "genre" within the theme of "situated freedom" brought into awareness through the reciprocal interrelation of having Heidegger and Foucault in conversation with Robert Nichols [as an act of disclosure] Larry From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sun Mar 1 00:48:32 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 08:48:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sledgehammers in Mosul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1866950846.699228.1425199712238.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Bravo , Shirin !! We have been raised from the same root and we understand each other in full account but I'm sure Helena is sympathetic towards us . Of course , at times , there are slightly contemptuous allusions from other sides but we can be hopeful and dream of a global united front against the roots of disastrous acts . I'll send you a related poem off-list . ?? Truly From: Shirin Vossoughi To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Saturday, 28 February 2015, 21:46:22 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sledgehammers in Mosul Helena, What is the message here? Does the link speak for itself and what does it say? I am thinking about the "cultural vandalism" of the west in Iraq and other parts of the region, and of the complex history (in which the US has played a central role) that has led to what is being depicted in this story. I do not mean to re-inscribe simplified west vs. middle east narratives, but I do want to question how we are being asked to interpret such acts. In this clip, as in so much media coverage of the region, such practices are rooted in the uniquely anti-democratic or anti-free speech tendencies of Islam. As Said famously argued, "we" are thereby exalted as all the more democratic and free. I wish the Western experts lamenting the destruction of artifacts in this clip had as loudly and boldly lamented the destruction of life in the brutal wars that led to this mess. Shirin On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Helena Worthen wrote: > http://bcove.me/1yo9t5x9 > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > > From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sun Mar 1 01:33:55 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 09:33:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sledgehammers in Mosul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <794624010.694354.1425202435646.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> We'll be doing that , sure , me as his student really ! From: mike cole To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Saturday, 28 February 2015, 22:41:43 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sledgehammers in Mosul Shirin and Helen - Both of your remarks resonate with issues we are all thinking about. It resonates strongly with the Haydi/David interchange that David has summarized for us. I have been having similar thoughts regarding the destruction of the Eastern Ukraine. Is the task to reconcile Haydi and David's views of what is to be done? Both appear to require a lot of cooperative work if they are to be accomplished. mike On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:16 AM, Shirin Vossoughi < shirinvossoughi@gmail.com> wrote: > Helena, > What is the message here? Does the link speak for itself and what does it > say? I am thinking about the "cultural vandalism" of the west in Iraq and > other parts of the region, and of the complex history (in which the US has > played a central role) that has led to what is being depicted in this > story. I do not mean to re-inscribe simplified west vs. middle east > narratives, but I do want to question how we are being asked to interpret > such acts. In this clip, as in so much media coverage of the region, such > practices are rooted in the uniquely anti-democratic or anti-free speech > tendencies of Islam. As Said famously argued, "we" are thereby exalted as > all the more democratic and free. > I wish the Western experts lamenting the destruction of artifacts in this > clip had as loudly and boldly lamented the destruction of life in the > brutal wars that led to this mess. > Shirin > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Helena Worthen > wrote: > > > http://bcove.me/1yo9t5x9 > > > > > > Helena Worthen > > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sun Mar 1 01:49:25 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 09:49:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Polls are Open In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <246485293.704905.1425203365205.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Mike, David , in an off-list correspondence , told me that we are now ways away from the beginnings ; we should see if we are now in the middle or in the end . I considered it right . What remains for us to think about is whether reciprocity , interaction , maybe dialectics are things which could be agreed upon . What used to come up as muddy waters is now gone with the wind hopefully ! Thanks a lot ! From: mike cole To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Saturday, 28 February 2015, 22:30:29 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Polls are Open With all of the demands on everyone's time, Rob, knowing what and how to read as a means of pursuing one's projects is tough. Reviewers make judgment calls. Sometimes there is news there to excite you, sometimes to bore you, sometimes to irritate you. Hopefully there is something of use there for everyone. Lets see what the wisdom of the crowd tell us regarding choice of article and hope that the crowd will be interested enough in the results to join in the discussion! Hopefully the author can be talked into participating as well; providing authors with feedback in a hurry is our anachronistic form of social media.? :-) Meantime, there's that interesting discussion about the precedence of deed and word which is always interesting to think about. Hoping for a spot of your English rain here. mike mike On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:27 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > I knew that I was jumping to conclusions on the basis of one word, and > I'm quite sure it was tua non culpa, Mike; I shall have to read it now, > but my impression is that there is more than a little work on the skill > and art of medical diagnosis, and a continuing and healthy debate about > how it can be taught to would be doctors. > > Rob > > > On 28/02/2015 16:23, mike cole wrote: > >> Perhaps, Rob, like many contributors to this list and the journal, the >> authors are not native speakers of English and the editors and copy >> editors >> who worked on the ms thought that the abstract made it was clear that this >> was a paper about decision making. Residual misunderstandings are the >> editors' responsibility of course. Mea 1/4 culpa. >> >> I believe all the articles are worth discussion. Voting is the easy part, >> discussion a little more time consuming!? :-) >> mike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 8:01 AM, rjsp2 wrote: >> >>? I considered that, but it seems an odd way to put it. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 28/02/2015 14:37, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>? Rob-- Perhaps the the author meant understudied by social scientists of >>>> the >>>> type >>>> who publish in MCA? >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 2:03 AM, rjsp2 >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>? I won't say which one I voted for, but I didn't vote for the oncology >>>> >>>>> one - I couldn't get past the authors' description of it as an >>>>> understudied field. Oncology? Really? >>>>> >>>>> Rob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 28/02/2015 04:25, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>>>> >>>>>? Mike, >>>>> >>>>>> Thank you. I thought this would be tedious, but then: abstracts, not >>>>>> full >>>>>> articles! Then it got game-like. That of course is your intention. >>>>>> Anyway >>>>>> it all looks like expansion and third spaces. Fractally speaking. I >>>>>> did >>>>>> vote for the Dakota incident but all four of them look interesting. >>>>>> Free! >>>>>> Henry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>? ? On Feb 27, 2015, at 1:35 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>? Dear Colleagues, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The polls are now open for the first number of MCA for 2015. Check >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> abstracts and see what you would like to discuss. The winner >>>>>>> is made available free at the publishers. We'll arrange for that in a >>>>>>> week >>>>>>> or so when people have had a chance to check out the >>>>>>> abstracts and to make a choice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Click here? http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/poll.html and vote as >>>>>>> often >>>>>>> as you can.? :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>>>>> object >>>>>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>? ? -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC >>>>>> 000391), an >>>>>> >>>>> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland >>>>> (SC >>>>> 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the >>>>> Financial >>>>> Conduct Authority. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>? -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), >>> an >>> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland >>> (SC >>> 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial >>> Conduct Authority. >>> >>> >>> >> > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an > exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC > 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial > Conduct Authority. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sun Mar 1 08:25:32 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 16:25:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <467549048.1017643.1425227132736.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> ?The "cultural form of behavior" was the DEformation of "natural" direct reaching for the object(ive) by inclusion of extrasomatic stuff into an always hybrid act. Thank you , Mike ! From: mike cole To: Haydi Zulfei Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Saturday, 28 February 2015, 23:06:09 Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] (no subject) Hi Haydi- This note has been followed by a long thread of productive exchanges arising from yourdiscussion with David, so I will be brief, and be responsive in a more relevant way as questions arise. For me, the issue of "in the beginning of was the deed" arose first in connection with Dewey's critical analysis of the reflex arc concept (my university training is as a mid-20th century American behaviorist learning theorist - I am literally a third generation Skinnerian). That this critique came from as far back as Goethe for reasons broader than I could glimpse earlier in my life. So I really have no idea where you get the idea that "?I thought you and the majority of good colleagues here think of Vygotsky as ignoring the act altogether." In the first declaration of the idea of what it is now acceptable to call a cultural-historical theory of activity in English, Luria declared that the ur act of human beings was to act upon the world in a manner that that incorporates resources inherited extrasomatically, what I thinking of as culture, our second nature. In that early statement, in THAT beginning, it was clearly that "in the beginning is the deed." ?The "cultural form of behavior" was the DEformation of "natural" direct reaching for the object(ive) by inclusion of extrasomatic stuff into an always hybrid act. Your discussion with David is so full or things to think about, and the annotations by Larry and others equally so, that I am left with more than enough to keep me absent minded! thanks. mike On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 7:09 AM, Haydi Zulfei wrote: Mike, Maybe I've been speaking about something which is crystal-clear to you . I thought you and the majority of good colleagues here think of Vygotsky as ignoring the act altogether . It's always been my problem when reading Vygotsky . At times , while reading , I reach a point where I can see quite clearly , transparently that , as I said , Vygotsky took deed for granted . His favorite province was to do research on how child's development finds its way through conversion of functions a la benevolence of word and broader conceptions plus nuances and interplay with deed . As Francine talks so fluently and understandably about what Vygotsky intends to say about each problem , I decided to see how she thinks about this point . I think she came up with brilliant words in this respect .? And the tying with politics of the Day , I think , is the task before each of us . Prior to your message , I read Miguel's invitation for an act of social fibre . That , too , comes from the infiltration of capitalist rule within even the tiniest corner of people's social life . Macro-social anti-popular plannings of global transnational Capitalism requires our collective talk and deed , union and unison so that life might traverse more smoothly upon the path . Asia , Africa , Australia , Americas , far from dealing with the dim points which are to be found in each nation's history , should be on the alert against the threats which knows no boundary and no interruptions . Thanks so much !? From: mike cole To: Haydi Zulfei ; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Saturday, 28 February 2015, 2:34:52 Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] (no subject) I do not understand the central message of this note, Haydi.mike On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Haydi Zulfei wrote: I said the dominant province of Vygotsky's work ; that means all through his works , he uses terms and expressions which denote or connote "action" : behaviour , operation , activity , work as labour proper and these are not things which might escape your good attention .? Then denial of action is denial of what Vygotsky has taken for granted .? Vygotsky does have an unending love for word and literature , art in general ; Then we should not take him as being guilty because he either did not have time or he did not want to deal with the analysis of "action" .? In his "Higher Psychological Functions" , he first talks about an environment , he stresses that the environment necessitates use of tools even for the months-old child , then he elucidates in details the influence of speech upon each function . It's my assumption that Vygotsky implies that when everything is in place , that is , when by the blessings of speech , all functions are ripe and rich and replete with influences , then the gown-up , adolescent , adult , man becomes ready to go fully for transformations . And I don't mean : word ends , action begins ; no linear advancement . through zigs and zags , heading towards will be the agenda .? I ask : is that the case that you think that Vygotsky thought that with rich , ripe psychological functions a la speech influence , man was finished with everything to continue living ?? I'm afraid not ! Man now had to take one very big step further , farther . To have ideals , to let them penetrate cycles of activities to provide products to satisfy needs because the richest , ripest talk will not satisfy life needs .? Capitalism today though decaying , has opted for horrendous deeds and wants to go ahead with these deeds through futile talks . Destructive arsenals are not for defense as coming from rich beneficial talks ; they won't wait for the United Nations' benevolent tribunes nor for the written files therefrom , either .? The United Actions of all the oppressed peoples of the world may wayward another big disaster !! and that requires already agreed upon talks ; otherwise no deed will be a crowned one ! Cheers ? ? -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sun Mar 1 10:54:04 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 12:54:04 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development In-Reply-To: References: , <1023440842.2077149.1425053271508.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>, , , Message-ID: Message from Francine: Hi Mike, Good discussion in Luria'sThe Working Brain (1976) pp. -27 - 30. On page 30, Luria clearly stated his conclusion that brain activity operates as "complex functional systems." Luria's discussion of brain functions argues against the model of localized functions that was dominant in American neurology, at that time. He used some of the same examples (walking as a functional system) that he mentioned again in the passage from The Making of Mind (1979) that Mike Cole posted recently on XMCA. In Higher Cortical Functions (1962 in Russian), Luria refers to Vygotsky a dozen times, but there is no Vygotsky text in the bibliography - same thing in the 2013 publication of that same book. In The Working Brain (1976), there are four Vygotsky publications in the bibliography, including the 1960 publication of The Development of Higher Psychological Functions [Mike Cole has Luria's copy of this Vygotsky publication with extensive hand written commentary by Luria] > From: mcole@ucsd.edu > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:28:27 -0800 > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development > > Hi Francine--- I am certain you are correct about the importance of > contemporary work > on functional systems. But in so far as we are discussing these ideas in > light of Vygotsky's, > I thought the Luria fragment relevant. > > I have Luria's copy of LSV's "Development of higher psychological > functions" from 1960 and on every page of the article contained therein on > the study of localization of psychological functions, where a lot of > discussion of functional systems arises, there are the extensive notes of > someone who took the ideas very seriously. Given ARL's dim view of the way > American neuropsychology went about thinking about such matters, perhaps > such archania might prove useful. > > Certainly it would be fascinating to see a critical account of these ideas. > Perhaps in Elkhonin Goldberg's writings? > > mike > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 3:01 PM, larry smolucha > wrote: > > > Message from Francine: > > > > Mike, > > > > While it would be interesting to read Luria's writings on functional > > systems, his formulations have been greatly enhanced by contemporary > > neuroscience's use of the fMRI for brain imaging. I will look for something > > by a contemporary neurologist, as well. > > > > If my memory is correct, the first draft of the chapter that Larry > > Smolucha and I > > are writing for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and Creativity is due March > > 15th. > > We will write the section on neuropsychological systems now and I will look > > for a reference that XMCARs would be able to access now. > > > > > > > From: mcole@ucsd.edu > > > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:48:49 -0800 > > > To: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com; xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > proximal development > > > > > > I am way behind on this discussion and will not try to join it yet. But > > my > > > first step is to go back and read Luria on functional systems. This > > should > > > be your specialty, Francine. Do you have a summary chapter of some sort > > we > > > might read? Another great entry point is "Man with a Shattered World" > > that > > > has, in addition to Luria's own account, a set of mini-lectures by a > > brain > > > scientists who worked with Luria. That is, if this discussion is > > ongoing. > > > mike > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 8:07 AM, Haydi Zulfei < > > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Francine ! > > > > This is all brilliant , fantastic but just expressing the dominant > > > > province of Vygotsky's work the way I think which might be wrong . That > > > > dominant province is "word' and broader conceptions of "word" . > > > > Think of this please : > > > > "The experiment with the pictures indicates that a child of three sees > > > > separate objects and an older child thinks of the world as a system of > > > > effects. It develops that if one and the same picture (let us say, the > > > > prisoner in jail) is shown to a three-year-old, he will say, "a man, > > > > another man, a window, a mug, a bench," but for a preschool child it > > would > > > > be: '~ man is sitting, another is looking out the window and a mug > > is on > > > > the bench," We know that the opposite is true: both the > > three-year-old and > > > > the very young child resolve all the separate objects according to > > their > > > > functions, that is, they determine them through [actions]. For the > > child, > > > > it is [actions] that are primary. When we try to find the first, > > primary > > > > word, then we find that this is the name of an [action] and not an > > object; > > > > the child names a word that signifies an [action], then a word that > > > > signifies an object." > > > > > > > > "Summarizing the data, we come to this conclusion: a fatal > > contradiction > > > > has arisen between the development of thinking as presented by the > > story > > > > with the picture and everything that we know about the development of > > > > thinking from life. In both cases, the relations seem to be inverted. > > It is > > > > curious that all of these notions can be confirmed by experiments and > > > > facts. We can take a thousand children and show yet again that this is > > the > > > > case with the picture. It is an incontrovertible fact, but it must be > > > > interpreted differently." > > > > > > > > "Let us conduct an experiment because only experiments can give a > > > > definitive answer. There are several simple ways to do this that seem > > to me > > > > to be extremely clever. We will try to exclude the child's speech and > > we > > > > will try to get responses to the picture by some other means and not > > > > through words. If the proposition is true that the child does not > > think of > > > > the world as separate things but can say only separate words and cannot > > > > form their connections, then we will try to get along without words. We > > > > will ask two children not to tell a story, but to perform what the > > picture > > > > shows. It develops that the children's play about the picture > > > > sometimes lasts 20 or 30 minutes, and primarily and most of all in the > > > > play, those relations are captured that are in the picture. To put it > > more > > > > simply, if the child is asked to dramatize the picture and not to > > tell its > > > > story, then, according to the experiments of Stern, the four- or > > > > five-year-old child dramatizes the prison picture the way a > > twelve-year-old > > > > tells it. The child understands very well that the people are in jail: > > here > > > > the complex narration about how the people were caught, how they > > > > were taken, that one looks out the window, and that he wants to be > > free is > > > > added. Here a very complex narration is added about how the nanny was > > > > fined for not having a ticket on the trolley. In a word, we get a > > typical > > > > portrayal of what we see in the story of the twelve-year-old." > > > > > > > > The one screen rule has been breaking down many times by the initiators > > > > themselves . However , I end this portion here . > > > > From: larry smolucha > > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2015, 10:27:05 > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > > > proximal development > > > > > > > > Message from Francine" > > > > > > > > Hi Larry, > > > > > > > > Yes, I agree there is an way in which my perspective and Chaiklin's can > > > > be intertwined. First, my reading of Vygotsky is that higher functions > > are > > > > consciously directed, unlike elementary functions which are > > spontaneous. > > > > For Vygotsky all functions first exist (in animals, and in infants and > > > > preschoolers) > > > > as spontaneous processes of attention, perception, emotion, > > imagination, > > > > and > > > > realistic thinking. Through the process of the internalization of the > > > > verbal guidance > > > > of a more knowledgeable person, these functions become consciously > > directed > > > > attention, perception, emotions, imagination, and realistic thinking > > > > (i.e., become > > > > higher functions). > > > > > > > > But, there is also a training in cultural traditions of thinking (what > > > > Chaiklin calls > > > > functions) - in particular, realistic thinking can develop into several > > > > disciplines > > > > of logical/ analytical thinking such as Aristotelian logic, dialectical > > > > thinking, > > > > mathematics, and thinking in scientific concepts. An interesting > > question > > > > arises: > > > > Can someone think in scientific concepts but not be able to consciously > > > > direct > > > > their own thinking in scientific concepts? Such a person would have > > > > acquired > > > > higher level thinking in Chaiklin's use of the term but not in > > Vygotsky's > > > > use of > > > > the term 'higher functions'. Such a person would lack metacogntive > > > > awareness > > > > of how their own thought processes proceed. This would be a high level > > > > practitioner in a form of disciplinary thinking, who just robotically > > > > follows a > > > > procedural way of thinking. I think there are people like that. > > > > > > > > A second point to keep in mind, is that Vygotsky used the term higher > > > > psychological > > > > functions rather than higher mental functions. For the most part, the > > > > terms can be > > > > used inter-changeably. Higher psychological function is more > > appropriate > > > > when > > > > discussing consciously directed emotions. Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy > > is > > > > a practical application of Vygotsky and Luria's writings (by Donald > > > > Meichenbaum), that uses > > > > the verbal guidance of the therapist as a model for the client's > > self-talk > > > > to help the > > > > client control their own emotions and moods. Also, Vygotsky did say > > that > > > > different > > > > higher psychological functions can function together as psychological > > > > systems. > > > > > > > > I will look more closely at Gadamer's writings. If reciprocal > > interaction > > > > means > > > > that the cultural traditions are both internalized and changed by the > > > > individual - > > > > I agree. The latter part is the central point in my understanding of > > > > Vygotsky's theory of creativity. Through both internal dialogues > > > > (dialectics) and external conversations > > > > new ideas, art forms, inventions,emerge. > > > > > > > > Oh, one more point my understanding of the research on collaborative > > > > learning is that > > > > it is most effective when someone in the peer group knows something > > more > > > > than > > > > the others. That something more moves the group into the zone of > > proximal > > > > development. Peers might be at the same level in many areas, but as > > > > individuals > > > > they might have higher level skills that they can help the others > > acquire. > > > > For, example > > > > if a group is working on an original story, someone might be good at > > > > metaphorical > > > > thinking but not the best in grammar and spelling. Other people might > > be > > > > very good at grammar and/or spelling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 07:54:25 -0800 > > > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > > > proximal development > > > > > > > > > > Francine, > > > > > Your answer to my question moves me to return to the notion of > > > > "reciprocal > > > > > interaction" and my interest in Gadamer's philosophical > > hermeneutics. Is > > > > > it possible that Chaiklin's understanding of "functions" [as > > expressing > > > > > "traditions"] and your elaboration of Vygotsky's "functions" such as > > > > > "imagination and analytic thinking" are intertwined and that we can > > > > imagine > > > > > the person " a if" a weaver of tapesties that INCLUDE both > > understandings > > > > > of "functions" [crystallized and open-ended] The term "reciprocal > > > > > interaction" I am approaching as Simmel used this term. Francine, > > your > > > > > statement: > > > > > > > > > > "Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of > > > > consciously > > > > > directing > > > > > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for > > > > > creativity. > > > > > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions > > > > (such > > > > > as imagination > > > > > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > > > > > systems" > > > > > > > > > > I am asking if there is "space" or the possibility of opening a > > "zone" > > > > > where yours and Chaiklin's notions of "function" can mutually and > > > > > reciprocally enrich each "other" ? > > > > > > > > > > I look forward to reading your chapter [and book] > > > > > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 11:24 PM, larry smolucha < > > lsmolucha@hotmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > > > > > > > Seth Chaiklin in redefining Vygotsky's terminology (functions and > > zone > > > > of > > > > > > proximal > > > > > > development), creates a developmental model that is very static. > > > > Vygotsky, > > > > > > however, > > > > > > is very clear in describing a dynamic model of how elementary > > > > > > psychological functions > > > > > > develop into consciously directed higher psychological functions > > > > through > > > > > > the internalization > > > > > > of speech. This is very different from Chaiklin defining higher > > > > > > psychological (or mental) > > > > > > functions as higher level concepts involving more abstract > > thinking, > > > > such > > > > > > as scientific > > > > > > concepts - this is more like an cultural model of Piagetian > > concrete > > > > and > > > > > > formal operational > > > > > > thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you hit the mark when you said that Chaiklin's > > developmental > > > > model > > > > > > produces > > > > > > crystallized and sedimented psychological functions that are > > > > preordained > > > > > > by a particular > > > > > > culture. [This is different from Piaget's structuralist theory in > > which > > > > > > reasoning with scientific concepts naturally emerges at certain > > ages]. > > > > By > > > > > > making the term 'higher' simply refer to > > > > > > the higher skill level designated by a particular culture - it all > > > > becomes > > > > > > culturally relative. > > > > > > > > > > > > Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of > > > > consciously > > > > > > directing > > > > > > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows > > for > > > > > > creativity. > > > > > > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental > > functions > > > > (such > > > > > > as imagination > > > > > > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as > > psychological > > > > > > systems. > > > > > > This is exactly what contemporary neuroscience has found in its > > > > > > brain-imaging > > > > > > studies (fMRI) of the prefrontal neocortex. > > > > > > > > > > > > My husband (Larry Smolucha) and I are writing a chapter titled > > > > > > "Neuropsychological > > > > > > Systems of Cultural Creativity" for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and > > > > > > Creativity. > > > > > > Cathrene, Vera, and Ana suggested to their acquisitions editor that > > > > Larry > > > > > > and I expand > > > > > > that chapter into a book. (So yes indeed, I can cite my sources > > > > including > > > > > > Vygotsky's > > > > > > works in Russian or contemporary neuroscience.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:08:35 -0800 > > > > > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > > > > > proximal development > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seth Chaiklin's article has me reflecting on the meaning of > > > > "functions". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The article's concluding comment is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the analysis presented here, the zone of proximal > > > > > > development > > > > > > > refers to the maturing functions that are relevant to the next > > age > > > > period > > > > > > > and that enable performance in collaborative situations that > > could > > > > not be > > > > > > > achieved independently. These *functions* are not created in > > > > > > interaction, > > > > > > > rather interaction provides conditions for identifying their > > > > existence > > > > > > and > > > > > > > the extent to which they have developed." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I read this as indicating that the functions analyzed are > > > > "crystallized" > > > > > > or > > > > > > > "sedimented" forms that "objectively" exist as "generalized" > > > > structures. > > > > > > > Within "socially situated" settings individual persons will > > > > subjectively > > > > > > > move through a sequence of predictable "periods". Within modern > > > > social > > > > > > > situations "school" is a predictable social situation and it is > > the > > > > goal > > > > > > or > > > > > > > desire to develop "scientific concepts" in school settings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore functions described as "higher mental functions" exist > > in > > > > > > > particular historical social situations of development, not > > > > universally > > > > > > > applicable situations. To be more specific "scientific concepts > > > > function > > > > > > > within school situations of development. As Chaiklin writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It is important to recognize that these periods are not > > reflecting a > > > > > > > biological necessity (because of genetic or other organic > > sources), > > > > even > > > > > > > though the development of higher psychological functions (e.g. , > > > > > > > perception, voluntary memory, speech, thinking) are dependent on > > > > these > > > > > > > natural conditions. .... Similarly, none of the psychological > > > > functions > > > > > > are > > > > > > > 'pure' in the sense of a biologically given module or faculty." > > > > [page 7] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words there exists an "objective" zone [a general zone] > > > > which > > > > > > > Chaiklin clarifies as a tripartite constellation of "present > > age", > > > > > > > "maturing function", and "next age" AS "the objective zone of > > > > proximal > > > > > > > development" [page 7] This zone is objective in the sense that it > > > > does > > > > > > not > > > > > > > refer to any individual child, but reflects [mirrors] the > > > > psychological > > > > > > > functions that need to be formed during a given age period of > > > > development > > > > > > > [and in particular the higher scientific or school concepts > > > > developed in > > > > > > > school situations.] In order to approach the more abstract > > concepts > > > > > > [which > > > > > > > are going "higher"] psychological functions need to develop > > first in > > > > > > order > > > > > > > to move to the next "period" or situation of concept development > > > > [verbal > > > > > > > thought]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chaiklin then makes a clear statement of the characteristic of > > this > > > > > > > objective zone: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The 'objective' zone is not defined a priori, but reflects the > > > > > > structural > > > > > > > relationships that are *historically-constructed and objectively > > > > > > > constituted* in the historical period in which the child lives. > > One > > > > can > > > > > > say > > > > > > > that the zone for a given age period is normative, in that it > > > > > > > *reflects *[LP-mirrors] > > > > > > > the institutionalized demands and expectations that developed > > > > > > historically > > > > > > > in a particular societal *tradition of practice*. For example > > > > school age > > > > > > > children are expected to develop capabilities to reason with > > academic > > > > > > > (i.e., scientific) concepts. Individuals who do not develop this > > > > > > > *capability* can be said to *have* [LP - possess] a different > > > > > > intellectual > > > > > > > structure.... Reasoning with concepts is a specific > > manifestation of > > > > the > > > > > > > new-formations for this age ... " [page7] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words functions which develop are "new" formations > > which are > > > > > > > normative [ "crystallized" or "sedimented"]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The question that I am left with is the relation of these > > normative > > > > > > > functions existing within particular social situations of > > development > > > > > > when > > > > > > > the social situations that now exist become the object of deep > > > > > > questioning? > > > > > > > This type of reflection and speculation is entering the realm of > > > > "what > > > > > > > if". What if the "objective" zone of proximal development and > > its > > > > "new" > > > > > > > formations [crystallized, sedimented] itself becomes the > > "object" of > > > > > > > inquiry? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope my train of thought is coherent? Chaiklin's article > > brought > > > > > > clarity > > > > > > > to my understanding of "functions" as key concepts for > > understanding > > > > the > > > > > > > meaning and sense of ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Mar 1 15:39:02 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 23:39:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Quote from Marx & Engels collected works vol. 12 Message-ID: In Davydov's volume on generalization (p.119), he quotes Marx using the word "oilier". The citation is from Russian, but if anyone has the English this will be fine. Is this a correct quotation? Is oilier given a meaning or sense? "Every form of society has a certain industry which determines the place and the influence of all oilier industries, and whose relations therefore also determine the place and the influence of all other industries. This is a general illumination, in which all other colors disappear and which modifies them in their features. This is a special ether that determines the specific weight of everything real that is detected in it." For those interested, Davydov's volume can be found here: https://www.marxists.org/archive/davydov/generalization/generalization.pdf Thanks, Huw From ablunden@mira.net Sun Mar 1 15:46:54 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 10:46:54 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Quote from Marx & Engels collected works vol. 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54F3A4EE.8070402@mira.net> "Oilier" is "other" an OCR error Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Huw Lloyd wrote: > In Davydov's volume on generalization (p.119), he quotes Marx using the > word "oilier". The citation is from Russian, but if anyone has the English > this will be fine. Is this a correct quotation? Is oilier given a meaning > or sense? > > "Every form of society has a certain industry which determines the place > and the influence of all oilier industries, and whose relations therefore > also determine the place and the influence of all other industries. This > is a general illumination, in which all other colors disappear and which > modifies them in their features. This is a special ether that determines > the specific weight of everything real that is detected in it." > > For those interested, Davydov's volume can be found here: > https://www.marxists.org/archive/davydov/generalization/generalization.pdf > > Thanks, > Huw > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Mar 1 15:56:08 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 23:56:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Quote from Marx & Engels collected works vol. 12 In-Reply-To: <54F3A4EE.8070402@mira.net> References: <54F3A4EE.8070402@mira.net> Message-ID: That was my first impression, although it leaves the first sentence seemingly overly redundant. So, the first sentence appears to be simply saying, "there is a certain industry which determines the place and influence of other industries, which is established by the relations within this certain industry"? Huw On 1 March 2015 at 23:46, Andy Blunden wrote: > "Oilier" is "other" > an OCR error > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> In Davydov's volume on generalization (p.119), he quotes Marx using the >> word "oilier". The citation is from Russian, but if anyone has the >> English >> this will be fine. Is this a correct quotation? Is oilier given a >> meaning >> or sense? >> >> "Every form of society has a certain industry which determines the place >> and the influence of all oilier industries, and whose relations therefore >> also determine the place and the influence of all other industries. This >> is a general illumination, in which all other colors disappear and which >> modifies them in their features. This is a special ether that determines >> the specific weight of everything real that is detected in it." >> >> For those interested, Davydov's volume can be found here: >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/davydov/generalization/generalization. >> pdf >> >> Thanks, >> Huw >> >> >> >> > > From ablunden@mira.net Sun Mar 1 16:00:00 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 11:00:00 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Quote from Marx & Engels collected works vol. 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54F3A800.4030408@mira.net> Here's the context: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1859/critique-pol-economy/appx1.htm#p211 About 1/3 of the way down the paragraph beginning "Just as ..." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Huw Lloyd wrote: > In Davydov's volume on generalization (p.119), he quotes Marx using the > word "oilier". The citation is from Russian, but if anyone has the English > this will be fine. Is this a correct quotation? Is oilier given a meaning > or sense? > > "Every form of society has a certain industry which determines the place > and the influence of all oilier industries, and whose relations therefore > also determine the place and the influence of all other industries. This > is a general illumination, in which all other colors disappear and which > modifies them in their features. This is a special ether that determines > the specific weight of everything real that is detected in it." > > For those interested, Davydov's volume can be found here: > https://www.marxists.org/archive/davydov/generalization/generalization.pdf > > Thanks, > Huw > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Mar 1 16:11:06 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 00:11:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Quote from Marx & Engels collected works vol. 12 In-Reply-To: <54F3A800.4030408@mira.net> References: <54F3A800.4030408@mira.net> Message-ID: Thanks Andy, that helps. Huw On 2 March 2015 at 00:00, Andy Blunden wrote: > Here's the context: > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1859/ > critique-pol-economy/appx1.htm#p211 > About 1/3 of the way down the paragraph beginning "Just as ..." > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> In Davydov's volume on generalization (p.119), he quotes Marx using the >> word "oilier". The citation is from Russian, but if anyone has the >> English >> this will be fine. Is this a correct quotation? Is oilier given a >> meaning >> or sense? >> >> "Every form of society has a certain industry which determines the place >> and the influence of all oilier industries, and whose relations therefore >> also determine the place and the influence of all other industries. This >> is a general illumination, in which all other colors disappear and which >> modifies them in their features. This is a special ether that determines >> the specific weight of everything real that is detected in it." >> >> For those interested, Davydov's volume can be found here: >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/davydov/generalization/generalization. >> pdf >> >> Thanks, >> Huw >> >> >> >> > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Mar 1 16:18:56 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 09:18:56 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Destructive "Creativity" and "Creative Destruction" Message-ID: Every work of Beuys's that I've ever seen or even heard of requires enormous amounts of text to understand. So for example "How to Explain Pictures to a Dead Hare" is comprehensible without the action, while the action is incomprehensible without the explanation. Someone compared it to the Mona Lisa, and Beuys hastened to disagree. But I agree with the comparison: when we experience the Mona Lisa, we do so through the various elaborations, extensions, and explanations of the work we have experienced, and this is no less true than when we are experiencing the picture face to face than when we are looking at it in a book. Meaning lies elsewhere, and so it is more a piece of language than a piece of action. I think performance artists get even more frustrated with this distancing than other artists (because they like to think of their artwork as somehow more in your face and unmediated than cinema or theatre). So they do really stupid things, like this: http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2014/feb/18/ai-weiwei-han-urn-smash-miami-art As you can see, there is no difference--none whatsoever--between what Ai Weiwei is doing in China and what the IS is doing in Northern Iraq, except that maybe the IS has the brains to use fakes and unload the originals on the black market for cash. Destructive "creativity" is really just an inverted world--and when we put it back on its feet again, we just see the "creative destruction" of everyday life under capitalism. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Mar 1 16:57:49 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 00:57:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Destructive "Creativity" and "Creative Destruction" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1425257869888.84765@unm.edu> Hi David, It's interesting your claim, because I did not need enormous amounts of text to understand the work of Beuys. But I don't expect others to have the same access to it as I do. The discussion is likely more important of what follows from the performance, than the performance, which also becomes a part of the performance, as this post on the list serve also becomes a part of the performance. Also, the fact that the performance was re-performed by Marina Abramovic in 2005, which I think is really cool, shows that this performance act can continue without the originator. As Beuys discussed in the video link that Henry posted (but the part one, not part two), he has had a lifetime to form the work, if someone isn't familiar with that process, it may not be accessible. Art does require a context when it is too unfamiliar. That is the power of art, isn't it? That it frequently causes us to stretch in ways we are not familiar or may not be easy. I have to stretch all the time while trying to participate on this list. But that is because I have a different background than most here. I think that it was not Beuys to the Mona Lisa that was compared, but the photograph of him with the hare was compared to the Mona Lisa. I don't think that was planned, but he does hold his hands in a similar fashion as the Mona Lisa, and so it was said by someone else that this photo is the Mona Lisa of the 20th Century. Why that is said requires a lot of art-history context I suppose. Just like understanding Vygotsky requires a lot of Marxist context. So of course it makes sense that Beuys disagreed, because he wouldn't want the work to be pigeon-holed that way. He would want to continue the discussion and not end it at the Mona Lisa. In performance art, the action is more important than the language. Though there is a language that Beuys creates of his own, in terms of symbols and signs. What is powerful about his work (for me) is the way the affect is transmitted; it is not divorced from the action, as can happen with language, which can induce hyper-rationalism, something that Beuys's work comments upon implicitly, and in the case of "How to Explain Pictures to a Dead Hare" explicitly. Just like artists and writers and researchers, there are some who master their medium, in this case performance, better than others. So I kind of find it odd to group all performance artists into one group and say they do stupid things. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course. Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Mar 1 17:49:57 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 01:49:57 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Destructive "Creativity" and "Creative Destruction" In-Reply-To: <1425257869888.84765@unm.edu> References: , <1425257869888.84765@unm.edu> Message-ID: <1425260996251.53931@unm.edu> Hello esteemed xmcars, I'd also like to share this work of performance art: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eternal_Frame http://doughallstudio.com/1975-the-eternal-frame/ And then there is this artist who deals with the female body and gender (which may be a little challenging for you, so be forewarned!): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolee_Schneemann I recently went to see Citizen Four with my father. Laura Poitras, in light of this discussion, is, in my mind, a kind of performance artist. For that reason, I admire her courage, as I admire the courage of these other performance artists I've shared recently who use their bodies as the medium to make the statements they chose or choose to make. In Poitras's case, she is using her body to cross boundaries where we would prefer they are kept intact. Her body never appears in the films but we do hear her disembodied voice in the film so we know she is there present, making the decisions to film. I think this is somehow a little different than a typical filmmaking process, even for documentaries. The film footage becomes more than a traditional documentary of the historical content, since I already knew just from reading the papers most of the content in the film before I saw the film. Instead, the film becomes but a kind of document or evidence that boundaries have been crossed (Which boundaries are for you as the viewer to decide). Poitras's films are not Hollywood commodifications of preordained emotions. She is certainly using the language of film, yet her choices for editing is definitely influenced by Ernie Gehr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernie_Gehr) as an attempt (in my opinion) to push the viewer. All of this work above, while possibly incorporating text (language), would be quite difficult to do with just text. There is a visceral element that is at work in the work that transcends the word. The message (meaning) is more important than the medium (language). I'd be curious how the medium of performance art might be considered in light of activity theory? Certainly these artists were working within a community of others, and while it wasn't the only motivation in all cases, they were/are (generally) acting in reaction to capitalism and the commodification of art. I figured that this would be a crowd that would delight in that. Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Mar 1 21:23:10 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 21:23:10 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Destructive "Creativity" and "Creative Destruction" In-Reply-To: <1425260996251.53931@unm.edu> References: <1425257869888.84765@unm.edu> <1425260996251.53931@unm.edu> Message-ID: ANalissa One way to connect performance art and chat is through connections to drama and through drama. Stanislavskii and Eisenshtein play roles here in LSV's thinking, and many others. The line of work called play worlds would be another line of investigation. One thing that connects them is the Russian term, perzhivanie which is getting a big play these days. (Pun unintended) Mike On Sunday, March 1, 2015, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello esteemed xmcars, > > I'd also like to share this work of performance art: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eternal_Frame > http://doughallstudio.com/1975-the-eternal-frame/ > > And then there is this artist who deals with the female body and gender > (which may be a little challenging for you, so be forewarned!): > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolee_Schneemann > > I recently went to see Citizen Four with my father. Laura Poitras, in > light of this discussion, is, in my mind, a kind of performance artist. For > that reason, I admire her courage, as I admire the courage of these other > performance artists I've shared recently who use their bodies as the medium > to make the statements they chose or choose to make. In Poitras's case, she > is using her body to cross boundaries where we would prefer they are kept > intact. Her body never appears in the films but we do hear her disembodied > voice in the film so we know she is there present, making the decisions to > film. I think this is somehow a little different than a typical filmmaking > process, even for documentaries. > > The film footage becomes more than a traditional documentary of the > historical content, since I already knew just from reading the papers most > of the content in the film before I saw the film. Instead, the film becomes > but a kind of document or evidence that boundaries have been crossed (Which > boundaries are for you as the viewer to decide). > > Poitras's films are not Hollywood commodifications of preordained > emotions. She is certainly using the language of film, yet her choices for > editing is definitely influenced by Ernie Gehr ( > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernie_Gehr) as an attempt (in my opinion) > to push the viewer. > > All of this work above, while possibly incorporating text (language), > would be quite difficult to do with just text. There is a visceral element > that is at work in the work that transcends the word. The message (meaning) > is more important than the medium (language). > > I'd be curious how the medium of performance art might be considered in > light of activity theory? Certainly these artists were working within a > community of others, and while it wasn't the only motivation in all cases, > they were/are (generally) acting in reaction to capitalism and the > commodification of art. > > I figured that this would be a crowd that would delight in that. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Mar 1 22:35:14 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 23:35:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Destructive "Creativity" and "Creative Destruction" In-Reply-To: <1425260996251.53931@unm.edu> References: <, > <1425257869888.84765@unm.edu> <1425260996251.53931@unm.edu> Message-ID: <742747A4-E6FC-4278-B7D4-453DF6C49BF1@gmail.com> Annalisa, If you call Laura Poitras a performance artist, wouldn't you call Judy Chicago a performance artist? (I love her work. Lives in Belen.) Judy?s life certainly is a performance! What about that Georgia O?Keefe? Walt Whitman? Norman Mailer? Salinger seemed to spend his whole life avoiding the limelight, but, if anything, his non-performance was the perforrmance itself. Okay, Emily Dickinson? In life, she retreated from the world, but in death that retreat was the sun that has burned brightly ever since: ?I?m nobody. Who are you?? Which brings to mind the creativity of everyday life. (Shout out to Anna Stetsenko!) On stage everybody! Isn?t there a lot of performance artist in all of us? Henry > On Mar 1, 2015, at 6:49 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello esteemed xmcars, > > I'd also like to share this work of performance art: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eternal_Frame > http://doughallstudio.com/1975-the-eternal-frame/ > > And then there is this artist who deals with the female body and gender (which may be a little challenging for you, so be forewarned!): > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolee_Schneemann > > I recently went to see Citizen Four with my father. Laura Poitras, in light of this discussion, is, in my mind, a kind of performance artist. For that reason, I admire her courage, as I admire the courage of these other performance artists I've shared recently who use their bodies as the medium to make the statements they chose or choose to make. In Poitras's case, she is using her body to cross boundaries where we would prefer they are kept intact. Her body never appears in the films but we do hear her disembodied voice in the film so we know she is there present, making the decisions to film. I think this is somehow a little different than a typical filmmaking process, even for documentaries. > > The film footage becomes more than a traditional documentary of the historical content, since I already knew just from reading the papers most of the content in the film before I saw the film. Instead, the film becomes but a kind of document or evidence that boundaries have been crossed (Which boundaries are for you as the viewer to decide). > > Poitras's films are not Hollywood commodifications of preordained emotions. She is certainly using the language of film, yet her choices for editing is definitely influenced by Ernie Gehr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernie_Gehr) as an attempt (in my opinion) to push the viewer. > > All of this work above, while possibly incorporating text (language), would be quite difficult to do with just text. There is a visceral element that is at work in the work that transcends the word. The message (meaning) is more important than the medium (language). > > I'd be curious how the medium of performance art might be considered in light of activity theory? Certainly these artists were working within a community of others, and while it wasn't the only motivation in all cases, they were/are (generally) acting in reaction to capitalism and the commodification of art. > > I figured that this would be a crowd that would delight in that. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Mar 2 00:05:55 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 08:05:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Destructive "Creativity" and "Creative Destruction" In-Reply-To: References: <1425257869888.84765@unm.edu> <1425260996251.53931@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1425283554018.65418@unm.edu> Hi mike! Connections to drama and through drama. Have you something in mind when you think about Stanislavskii and Eisenshtein? I wondered about the acts of creating art that cannot be commodified, though? Has anyone considered performance art in a CHAT context? I can see perezhivanie as being important in terms of "imprinting a message in the viewer," for lack of a better way to say it. These performance artists are attempting to call attention to something visceral within a context (within us), to bring that into our awareness, which (we hope) gives substance to further discussion and consciousness raising. What is nice to know about "How to Explain Pictures to a Dead Hare" is that it cannot be sold at Christies for 100 million dollars, but it has a Bakhtinian quality of an utterance that stretches forward through history's future forevermore. Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Mar 2 00:38:23 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 08:38:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Destructive "Creativity" and "Creative Destruction" In-Reply-To: <742747A4-E6FC-4278-B7D4-453DF6C49BF1@gmail.com> References: <, > <1425257869888.84765@unm.edu> <1425260996251.53931@unm.edu>, <742747A4-E6FC-4278-B7D4-453DF6C49BF1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1425285501783.4086@unm.edu> Hi Henry, I was hasty in my explanation to depict Laura Poitras as a performance artist, but I forgot to say that she has had to remove herself from the space here so she could make the art there (Berlin). She has been stopped dozens of times at the border and treated badly for no good reason I can see; she may have to call herself a journalist to be pragmatic, but I consider her an artist who makes films. This is why I feel safe to call her a performance artist because the act of doing the film has become more important than the product of the film itself, in that sense. The film becomes more of a document of the act, much like the photograph of Beuys with the hare, and the filming of "How to Explain Pictures to a Dead Hare." She has had to transport her body over boundaries to get to the spaces where she can do the work. There is a physicality and weight to the work because I happened to know the context in which the movie was possible, which I learned from reading her articles in Der Spiegel and in NYT or watching interviews of her at Democracy Now. Granted, all artists use their bodies, but there is something similar in Poitras's work to other performance art works I mentioned earlier than to a typical documentary film, a kind of visceral courage, which has nothing to do with sensationalism of performance we typically see with the likes of Lady Gaga, for example, who only cares about selling records. I don't think Poitras was attempting to win an oscar. The film is not a Hollywood commodity. I was shocked that after winning the award, the film left town the next day. We had to drive an hour to see it. Usually films stick around because of the prestige of winning an oscar. So it's really not a commodity in more ways than one! I'm not sure about the other people you propose, Henry. I don't know if all artists are performers, but they do have to perform in their medium, that is certain. I feel circumspect about attributing an artist temperament to what I'm calling performance art. I think would be a mistake. I would called Judy Chicago an installation artist or conceptual artist rather than a performance artist. I like her work very much! Kind regards, Annalisa From smago@uga.edu Mon Mar 2 08:37:55 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 16:37:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Joshua Fishman, R.I.P. Message-ID: From: Rosalind Horowitz [mailto:Rosalind.Horowitz@utsa.edu] Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 11:34 AM To: Peter Smagorinsky Subject: Distribute to Listserv 2 March 2015 Dear Colleagues. Language, Culture, and Social Science experts across the world mourn the loss of Joshua Fishman, Professor Emeritus, Yeshiva University, New York. He was at the forefront of Bilingualism, Multilingualism, Language Preservation, Minorities and Language Shift and an advocate of Languages and Culture as a mark of Human Values. The history of Professor Fishman?s life is a history of the Sociology and Psychology of Language and human preservation of tradition and culture. Rosalind Horowitz Professor, The University of Texas?San Antonio From: Ofelia Garcia [ogarcia@gc.cuny.edu] Joshua A. Fishman (1926-2015) A beloved teacher and influential scholar, Joshua A. Fishman passed away peacefully in his Bronx home, on Monday evening, March 1, 2015. He was 88 years old. Joshua A. Fishman leaves behind his devoted wife of over 60 years, Gella Schweid Fishman, three sons and daughters-in-law, nine grandchildren and two great-grandchildren. But he also leaves behind thousands of students throughout the world who have learned much from him about sociology of language, the field he founded, and also about the possibility of being a generous and committed scholar to language minority communities. As he once said, his life was his work and his work was his life. Joshua A. Fishman, nicknamed Shikl, was born in Philadelphia PA on July 18, 1926. Yiddish was the language of his childhood home, and his father regularly asked his sister, Rukhl, and him: ?What did you do for Yiddish today?? The struggle for Yiddish in Jewish life was the impetus for his scholarly work. After graduating from the University of Pennsylvania with a Masters degree in 1947, he collaborated with his good friend, Max Weinreich, the doyen of Yiddish linguistics, on a translation of Weinreich?s history of Yiddish. And it was through Yiddish that he came to another one of his interests ??that of bilingualism. In 1948 he received a prize from the YIVO Institute for Yiddish Research for a monograph on bilingualism. Yiddish and bilingualism were interests he developed throughout his scholarly life. After earning a PhD in social psychology from Columbia University in 1953, Joshua Fishman worked as a researcher for the College Entrance Examination Board. This experience focused his interest on educational pursuits, which eventually led to another strand of his scholarly work ?? that on bilingual education. It was around this time that he taught what came to be the first sociology of language course at The City College of New York. In 1958, he was appointed associate professor of human relations and psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, and two years later, moved to Yeshiva University. At Yeshiva University he was professor of psychology and sociology, Dean of the Ferkauf Graduate School of Social Science and Humanities, Academic Vice President, and Distinguished University Research Professor of Social sciences. In 1988, he became Professor Emeritus and began to divide the year between New York and California where he became visiting professor of education and linguistics at Stanford University. In the course of his career, Fishman held visiting appointments at over a dozen universities in the USA, Israel, and the Philippines, and fellowships at the Center for Advanced study (Stanford), the East West Center (Hawai?i) the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton, the Netherlands Institute for Advanced Study, and the Israel Institute for Advanced Study. Throughout his long career Joshua A. Fishman has published close to one hundred books and over a thousand articles. He has not only been prolific, but his original and complex ideas have been very influential in the academy, as well as extremely useful to language minorities through the world. His first major study of sociology of language, Language Loyalty in the United States, was published in 1964. A year later, he published Yiddish in America. In 1968, he published the earliest major collection dealing with language policy and management, Language problems of developing nations. In the same year, he edited and published Readings in the sociology of language, a first attempt to define the new field. By the 1970s Joshua Fishman?s scholarship was recognized throughout the world for its importance and its relevance about the language issues prevalent in society. In 1973, he founded, and has since edited, The International Journal of the Sociology of Language, a journal of excellent international reputation. Joshua Fishman has also edited a related book series published by Mouton, Contributions to the Sociology of Language (CSL), with over 200 titles. In both of these endeavors Fishman has encouraged young scholars to research, write and publish, supporting and contributing to the academic careers of many throughout the world, especially in developing countries. For years he replied daily to letters and e-mails from students from all over the world. His greatest motivation has been dialoguing with many about the use of language in society and answering student questions. The world was his classroom. While conducting an impressive body of research, and being responsive to the many who asked for advice, Fishman traveled extensively, encouraging the activities of those seeking to preserve endangered languages. He will be remembered by the M?oris of New Zealand, the Catalans and Basques of Spain, the Navajo and other Native Americans, the speakers of Quechua and Aymara in South America, and many other minority language groups for his warmth and encouragement. For a quarter-century, he wrote a column on Yiddish sociolinguistics in every issue of the quarterly Afn Shvel. He also wrote regularly on Yiddish and general sociolinguistic topics for the weekly Forverts. Together with his wife Gella Fishman, he established the extensive five-generational "Fishman Family Archives" at Stanford University library. In 2004 he received the prestigious UNESCO Linguapax Award in Barcelona, Spain. Joshua Fishman?s prolific record of research and publication has continued until today, defining modern scholarship in bilingualism and multilingualism, bilingual and minority education, the relation of language and thought, the sociology and the social history of Yiddish, language policy and planning, language spread, language shift and maintenance, language and nationalism, language and ethnicity, post-imperial English, languages in New York, and ethnic, and national efforts to reverse language shift. His scholarly work with minority groups and with others engaged in the struggle to preserve their languages, cultures, and traditions has been inspired by a deep and heartfelt compassion that is always sustained by the markedly human tone of his most objective scholarly writing. _______________________________________________ Edling mailing list Edling@bunner.geol.lu.se http://bunner.geol.lu.se/mailman/listinfo/edling -- Myrna Goldstein, B.S.J., MATESL Founder, Director Are You in Your English File?? Second Language Learning Research Center Eilat, Israel, formerly of Milan, Italy e: myrnaenglishfile@gmail.com Skype: myinmi t: 00972 (0)53 5255360 From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Mar 2 08:53:45 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 08:53:45 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Destructive "Creativity" and "Creative Destruction" In-Reply-To: References: <1425257869888.84765@unm.edu> <1425260996251.53931@unm.edu> Message-ID: My apologies, Annalisa, for incorrectly spelling your name. My own form of dysgraphia. mike On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 9:23 PM, mike cole wrote: > ANalissa > > One way to connect performance art and chat is through connections to > drama and through drama. Stanislavskii and Eisenshtein play roles here in > LSV's thinking, and many others. The line of work called play worlds would > be another line of investigation. One thing that connects them is the > Russian term, perzhivanie which is getting a big play these days. > (Pun unintended) > Mike > > > On Sunday, March 1, 2015, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> Hello esteemed xmcars, >> >> I'd also like to share this work of performance art: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eternal_Frame >> http://doughallstudio.com/1975-the-eternal-frame/ >> >> And then there is this artist who deals with the female body and gender >> (which may be a little challenging for you, so be forewarned!): >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolee_Schneemann >> >> I recently went to see Citizen Four with my father. Laura Poitras, in >> light of this discussion, is, in my mind, a kind of performance artist. For >> that reason, I admire her courage, as I admire the courage of these other >> performance artists I've shared recently who use their bodies as the medium >> to make the statements they chose or choose to make. In Poitras's case, she >> is using her body to cross boundaries where we would prefer they are kept >> intact. Her body never appears in the films but we do hear her disembodied >> voice in the film so we know she is there present, making the decisions to >> film. I think this is somehow a little different than a typical filmmaking >> process, even for documentaries. >> >> The film footage becomes more than a traditional documentary of the >> historical content, since I already knew just from reading the papers most >> of the content in the film before I saw the film. Instead, the film becomes >> but a kind of document or evidence that boundaries have been crossed (Which >> boundaries are for you as the viewer to decide). >> >> Poitras's films are not Hollywood commodifications of preordained >> emotions. She is certainly using the language of film, yet her choices for >> editing is definitely influenced by Ernie Gehr ( >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernie_Gehr) as an attempt (in my opinion) >> to push the viewer. >> >> All of this work above, while possibly incorporating text (language), >> would be quite difficult to do with just text. There is a visceral element >> that is at work in the work that transcends the word. The message (meaning) >> is more important than the medium (language). >> >> I'd be curious how the medium of performance art might be considered in >> light of activity theory? Certainly these artists were working within a >> community of others, and while it wasn't the only motivation in all cases, >> they were/are (generally) acting in reaction to capitalism and the >> commodification of art. >> >> I figured that this would be a crowd that would delight in that. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Mon Mar 2 09:25:22 2015 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 12:25:22 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Joshua Fishman, R.I.P. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for sharing this Peter. Does anyone have an article of his to share with us? Robert L. On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > From: Rosalind Horowitz [mailto:Rosalind.Horowitz@utsa.edu] > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 11:34 AM > To: Peter Smagorinsky > Subject: Distribute to Listserv > > > > > 2 March 2015 > > Dear Colleagues. > > Language, Culture, and Social Science experts across the world > mourn the loss of Joshua Fishman, Professor Emeritus, Yeshiva University, > New York. > He was at the forefront of Bilingualism, Multilingualism, Language > Preservation, Minorities and Language Shift and an advocate of Languages > and Culture as a mark of Human Values. > The history of Professor Fishman?s life is a history of the Sociology and > Psychology of Language and human preservation of tradition and culture. > > Rosalind Horowitz > Professor, The University of Texas?San Antonio > > > > > > From: Ofelia Garcia [ogarcia@gc.cuny.edu] > > > Joshua A. Fishman (1926-2015) > > A beloved teacher and influential scholar, Joshua A. Fishman passed away > peacefully in his Bronx home, on Monday evening, March 1, 2015. He was 88 > years old. Joshua A. Fishman leaves behind his devoted wife of over 60 > years, Gella Schweid Fishman, three sons and daughters-in-law, nine > grandchildren and two great-grandchildren. But he also leaves behind > thousands of students throughout the world who have learned much from him > about sociology of language, the field he founded, and also about the > possibility of being a generous and committed scholar to language minority > communities. As he once said, his life was his work and his work was his > life. > > Joshua A. Fishman, nicknamed Shikl, was born in Philadelphia PA on July > 18, 1926. Yiddish was the language of his childhood home, and his father > regularly asked his sister, Rukhl, and him: ?What did you do for Yiddish > today?? The struggle for Yiddish in Jewish life was the impetus for his > scholarly work. After graduating from the University of Pennsylvania with a > Masters degree in 1947, he collaborated with his good friend, Max > Weinreich, the doyen of Yiddish linguistics, on a translation of > Weinreich?s history of Yiddish. And it was through Yiddish that he came to > another one of his interests ??that of bilingualism. In 1948 he received a > prize from the YIVO Institute for Yiddish Research for a monograph on > bilingualism. Yiddish and bilingualism were interests he developed > throughout his scholarly life. > > After earning a PhD in social psychology from Columbia University in 1953, > Joshua Fishman worked as a researcher for the College Entrance Examination > Board. This experience focused his interest on educational pursuits, which > eventually led to another strand of his scholarly work ?? that on bilingual > education. It was around this time that he taught what came to be the first > sociology of language course at The City College of New York. In 1958, he > was appointed associate professor of human relations and psychology at the > University of Pennsylvania, and two years later, moved to Yeshiva > University. At Yeshiva University he was professor of psychology and > sociology, Dean of the Ferkauf Graduate School of Social Science and > Humanities, Academic Vice President, and Distinguished University Research > Professor of Social sciences. In 1988, he became Professor Emeritus and > began to divide the year between New York and California where he became > visiting professor of education and linguistics at Stanford University. In > the course of his career, Fishman held visiting appointments at over a > dozen universities in the USA, Israel, and the Philippines, and fellowships > at the Center for Advanced study (Stanford), the East West Center (Hawai?i) > the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton, the Netherlands Institute > for Advanced Study, and the Israel Institute for Advanced Study. > > Throughout his long career Joshua A. Fishman has published close to one > hundred books and over a thousand articles. He has not only been prolific, > but his original and complex ideas have been very influential in the > academy, as well as extremely useful to language minorities through the > world. His first major study of sociology of language, Language Loyalty in > the United States, was published in 1964. A year later, he published > Yiddish in America. In 1968, he published the earliest major collection > dealing with language policy and management, Language problems of > developing nations. In the same year, he edited and published Readings in > the sociology of language, a first attempt to define the new field. > > By the 1970s Joshua Fishman?s scholarship was recognized throughout the > world for its importance and its relevance about the language issues > prevalent in society. In 1973, he founded, and has since edited, The > International Journal of the Sociology of Language, a journal of excellent > international reputation. Joshua Fishman has also edited a related book > series published by Mouton, Contributions to the Sociology of Language > (CSL), with over 200 titles. In both of these endeavors Fishman has > encouraged young scholars to research, write and publish, supporting and > contributing to the academic careers of many throughout the world, > especially in developing countries. For years he replied daily to letters > and e-mails from students from all over the world. His greatest motivation > has been dialoguing with many about the use of language in society and > answering student questions. The world was his classroom. > > While conducting an impressive body of research, and being responsive to > the many who asked for advice, Fishman traveled extensively, encouraging > the activities of those seeking to preserve endangered languages. He will > be remembered by the M?oris of New Zealand, the Catalans and Basques of > Spain, the Navajo and other Native Americans, the speakers of Quechua and > Aymara in South America, and many other minority language groups for his > warmth and encouragement. For a quarter-century, he wrote a column on > Yiddish sociolinguistics in every issue of the quarterly Afn Shvel. He also > wrote regularly on Yiddish and general sociolinguistic topics for the > weekly Forverts. Together with his wife Gella Fishman, he established the > extensive five-generational "Fishman Family Archives" at Stanford > University library. In 2004 he received the prestigious UNESCO Linguapax > Award in Barcelona, Spain. > > Joshua Fishman?s prolific record of research and publication has continued > until today, defining modern scholarship in bilingualism and > multilingualism, bilingual and minority education, the relation of language > and thought, the sociology and the social history of Yiddish, language > policy and planning, language spread, language shift and maintenance, > language and nationalism, language and ethnicity, post-imperial English, > languages in New York, and ethnic, and national efforts to reverse language > shift. > > His scholarly work with minority groups and with others engaged in the > struggle to preserve their languages, cultures, and traditions has been > inspired by a deep and heartfelt compassion that is always sustained by the > markedly human tone of his most objective scholarly writing. > > _______________________________________________ > Edling mailing list > Edling@bunner.geol.lu.se > http://bunner.geol.lu.se/mailman/listinfo/edling > > > > -- > Myrna Goldstein, B.S.J., MATESL > Founder, Director > Are You in Your English File?? > Second Language Learning Research Center > Eilat, Israel, formerly of Milan, Italy > e: myrnaenglishfile@gmail.com > Skype: myinmi > t: 00972 (0)53 5255360 > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 From arazfar@uic.edu Mon Mar 2 09:39:11 2015 From: arazfar@uic.edu (Aria Razfar) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 11:39:11 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Joshua Fishman, R.I.P. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <057e01d0550f$cbefdfb0$63cf9f10$@uic.edu> http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/jar/SIL/Fishman1.pdf Aria Razfar, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois at Chicago 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 Chicago, IL, 60607 Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd Tel: 312-413-8373 Fax: 312-996-8134 -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Lake Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 11:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Joshua Fishman, R.I.P. Thanks for sharing this Peter. Does anyone have an article of his to share with us? Robert L. On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > From: Rosalind Horowitz [mailto:Rosalind.Horowitz@utsa.edu] > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 11:34 AM > To: Peter Smagorinsky > Subject: Distribute to Listserv > > > > > 2 March 2015 > > Dear Colleagues. > > Language, Culture, and Social Science experts across the world mourn > the loss of Joshua Fishman, Professor Emeritus, Yeshiva University, > New York. > He was at the forefront of Bilingualism, Multilingualism, Language > Preservation, Minorities and Language Shift and an advocate of > Languages and Culture as a mark of Human Values. > The history of Professor Fishman?s life is a history of the Sociology > and Psychology of Language and human preservation of tradition and culture. > > Rosalind Horowitz > Professor, The University of Texas?San Antonio > > > > > > From: Ofelia Garcia [ogarcia@gc.cuny.edu] > > > Joshua A. Fishman (1926-2015) > > A beloved teacher and influential scholar, Joshua A. Fishman passed > away peacefully in his Bronx home, on Monday evening, March 1, 2015. > He was 88 years old. Joshua A. Fishman leaves behind his devoted wife > of over 60 years, Gella Schweid Fishman, three sons and > daughters-in-law, nine grandchildren and two great-grandchildren. But > he also leaves behind thousands of students throughout the world who > have learned much from him about sociology of language, the field he > founded, and also about the possibility of being a generous and > committed scholar to language minority communities. As he once said, > his life was his work and his work was his life. > > Joshua A. Fishman, nicknamed Shikl, was born in Philadelphia PA on > July 18, 1926. Yiddish was the language of his childhood home, and his > father regularly asked his sister, Rukhl, and him: ?What did you do > for Yiddish today?? The struggle for Yiddish in Jewish life was the > impetus for his scholarly work. After graduating from the University > of Pennsylvania with a Masters degree in 1947, he collaborated with > his good friend, Max Weinreich, the doyen of Yiddish linguistics, on a > translation of Weinreich?s history of Yiddish. And it was through > Yiddish that he came to another one of his interests ??that of > bilingualism. In 1948 he received a prize from the YIVO Institute for > Yiddish Research for a monograph on bilingualism. Yiddish and > bilingualism were interests he developed throughout his scholarly life. > > After earning a PhD in social psychology from Columbia University in > 1953, Joshua Fishman worked as a researcher for the College Entrance > Examination Board. This experience focused his interest on educational > pursuits, which eventually led to another strand of his scholarly work > ?? that on bilingual education. It was around this time that he taught > what came to be the first sociology of language course at The City > College of New York. In 1958, he was appointed associate professor of > human relations and psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, and > two years later, moved to Yeshiva University. At Yeshiva University he > was professor of psychology and sociology, Dean of the Ferkauf > Graduate School of Social Science and Humanities, Academic Vice > President, and Distinguished University Research Professor of Social > sciences. In 1988, he became Professor Emeritus and began to divide > the year between New York and California where he became visiting > professor of education and linguistics at Stanford University. In the > course of his career, Fishman held visiting appointments at over a > dozen universities in the USA, Israel, and the Philippines, and > fellowships at the Center for Advanced study (Stanford), the East West > Center (Hawai?i) the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton, the Netherlands Institute for Advanced Study, and the Israel Institute for Advanced Study. > > Throughout his long career Joshua A. Fishman has published close to > one hundred books and over a thousand articles. He has not only been > prolific, but his original and complex ideas have been very > influential in the academy, as well as extremely useful to language > minorities through the world. His first major study of sociology of > language, Language Loyalty in the United States, was published in > 1964. A year later, he published Yiddish in America. In 1968, he > published the earliest major collection dealing with language policy > and management, Language problems of developing nations. In the same > year, he edited and published Readings in the sociology of language, a first attempt to define the new field. > > By the 1970s Joshua Fishman?s scholarship was recognized throughout > the world for its importance and its relevance about the language > issues prevalent in society. In 1973, he founded, and has since > edited, The International Journal of the Sociology of Language, a > journal of excellent international reputation. Joshua Fishman has also > edited a related book series published by Mouton, Contributions to the > Sociology of Language (CSL), with over 200 titles. In both of these > endeavors Fishman has encouraged young scholars to research, write and > publish, supporting and contributing to the academic careers of many > throughout the world, especially in developing countries. For years he > replied daily to letters and e-mails from students from all over the > world. His greatest motivation has been dialoguing with many about the > use of language in society and answering student questions. The world was his classroom. > > While conducting an impressive body of research, and being responsive > to the many who asked for advice, Fishman traveled extensively, > encouraging the activities of those seeking to preserve endangered > languages. He will be remembered by the M?oris of New Zealand, the > Catalans and Basques of Spain, the Navajo and other Native Americans, > the speakers of Quechua and Aymara in South America, and many other > minority language groups for his warmth and encouragement. For a > quarter-century, he wrote a column on Yiddish sociolinguistics in > every issue of the quarterly Afn Shvel. He also wrote regularly on > Yiddish and general sociolinguistic topics for the weekly Forverts. > Together with his wife Gella Fishman, he established the extensive > five-generational "Fishman Family Archives" at Stanford University > library. In 2004 he received the prestigious UNESCO Linguapax Award in Barcelona, Spain. > > Joshua Fishman?s prolific record of research and publication has > continued until today, defining modern scholarship in bilingualism and > multilingualism, bilingual and minority education, the relation of > language and thought, the sociology and the social history of Yiddish, > language policy and planning, language spread, language shift and > maintenance, language and nationalism, language and ethnicity, > post-imperial English, languages in New York, and ethnic, and national > efforts to reverse language shift. > > His scholarly work with minority groups and with others engaged in the > struggle to preserve their languages, cultures, and traditions has > been inspired by a deep and heartfelt compassion that is always > sustained by the markedly human tone of his most objective scholarly writing. > > _______________________________________________ > Edling mailing list > Edling@bunner.geol.lu.se > http://bunner.geol.lu.se/mailman/listinfo/edling > > > > -- > Myrna Goldstein, B.S.J., MATESL > Founder, Director > Are You in Your English File?? > Second Language Learning Research Center Eilat, Israel, formerly of > Milan, Italy > e: myrnaenglishfile@gmail.com > Skype: myinmi > t: 00972 (0)53 5255360 > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Mar 2 09:49:07 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 09:49:07 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Joshua Fishman, R.I.P. In-Reply-To: <057e01d0550f$cbefdfb0$63cf9f10$@uic.edu> References: <057e01d0550f$cbefdfb0$63cf9f10$@uic.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for forwarding Peter, inquiring Robert, and providing article, Aria. The final paragraph of the article on the problem of disappearing languages, published 20 years ago, might resonate with xmca readers: Reversing language shift is a research field, it is an applied field, it is a cultural values field, it has new horizons, there are new things to do, things that are, if you like, differently focused than the ordinary school has been. And reversing language shift asks, ?What happens with the mother tongue before school, in school, out of school, and after school?? so that it can be passed on from one generation to another. I started with a good question and I am ending with a good question and that is the question. ?What are you going to do with the mother tongue before school, in school, out of school, and after school?? Because that determines its fate, whether it is going to become self-renewing. That is my question for you, no joke! On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 9:39 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: > http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/jar/SIL/Fishman1.pdf > > > Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture > Director of Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction > University of Illinois at Chicago > 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > Chicago, IL, 60607 > > Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action > Research (ELMSA) > www.elmsa.org > > Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > Tel: 312-413-8373 > Fax: 312-996-8134 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Lake > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 11:25 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Joshua Fishman, R.I.P. > > Thanks for sharing this Peter. Does anyone have an article of his to share > with us? > Robert L. > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > > > > > From: Rosalind Horowitz [mailto:Rosalind.Horowitz@utsa.edu] > > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 11:34 AM > > To: Peter Smagorinsky > > Subject: Distribute to Listserv > > > > > > > > > > 2 March 2015 > > > > Dear Colleagues. > > > > Language, Culture, and Social Science experts across the world mourn > > the loss of Joshua Fishman, Professor Emeritus, Yeshiva University, > > New York. > > He was at the forefront of Bilingualism, Multilingualism, Language > > Preservation, Minorities and Language Shift and an advocate of > > Languages and Culture as a mark of Human Values. > > The history of Professor Fishman?s life is a history of the Sociology > > and Psychology of Language and human preservation of tradition and > culture. > > > > Rosalind Horowitz > > Professor, The University of Texas?San Antonio > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Ofelia Garcia [ogarcia@gc.cuny.edu] > > > > > > Joshua A. Fishman (1926-2015) > > > > A beloved teacher and influential scholar, Joshua A. Fishman passed > > away peacefully in his Bronx home, on Monday evening, March 1, 2015. > > He was 88 years old. Joshua A. Fishman leaves behind his devoted wife > > of over 60 years, Gella Schweid Fishman, three sons and > > daughters-in-law, nine grandchildren and two great-grandchildren. But > > he also leaves behind thousands of students throughout the world who > > have learned much from him about sociology of language, the field he > > founded, and also about the possibility of being a generous and > > committed scholar to language minority communities. As he once said, > > his life was his work and his work was his life. > > > > Joshua A. Fishman, nicknamed Shikl, was born in Philadelphia PA on > > July 18, 1926. Yiddish was the language of his childhood home, and his > > father regularly asked his sister, Rukhl, and him: ?What did you do > > for Yiddish today?? The struggle for Yiddish in Jewish life was the > > impetus for his scholarly work. After graduating from the University > > of Pennsylvania with a Masters degree in 1947, he collaborated with > > his good friend, Max Weinreich, the doyen of Yiddish linguistics, on a > > translation of Weinreich?s history of Yiddish. And it was through > > Yiddish that he came to another one of his interests ??that of > > bilingualism. In 1948 he received a prize from the YIVO Institute for > > Yiddish Research for a monograph on bilingualism. Yiddish and > > bilingualism were interests he developed throughout his scholarly life. > > > > After earning a PhD in social psychology from Columbia University in > > 1953, Joshua Fishman worked as a researcher for the College Entrance > > Examination Board. This experience focused his interest on educational > > pursuits, which eventually led to another strand of his scholarly work > > ?? that on bilingual education. It was around this time that he taught > > what came to be the first sociology of language course at The City > > College of New York. In 1958, he was appointed associate professor of > > human relations and psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, and > > two years later, moved to Yeshiva University. At Yeshiva University he > > was professor of psychology and sociology, Dean of the Ferkauf > > Graduate School of Social Science and Humanities, Academic Vice > > President, and Distinguished University Research Professor of Social > > sciences. In 1988, he became Professor Emeritus and began to divide > > the year between New York and California where he became visiting > > professor of education and linguistics at Stanford University. In the > > course of his career, Fishman held visiting appointments at over a > > dozen universities in the USA, Israel, and the Philippines, and > > fellowships at the Center for Advanced study (Stanford), the East West > > Center (Hawai?i) the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton, the > Netherlands Institute for Advanced Study, and the Israel Institute for > Advanced Study. > > > > Throughout his long career Joshua A. Fishman has published close to > > one hundred books and over a thousand articles. He has not only been > > prolific, but his original and complex ideas have been very > > influential in the academy, as well as extremely useful to language > > minorities through the world. His first major study of sociology of > > language, Language Loyalty in the United States, was published in > > 1964. A year later, he published Yiddish in America. In 1968, he > > published the earliest major collection dealing with language policy > > and management, Language problems of developing nations. In the same > > year, he edited and published Readings in the sociology of language, a > first attempt to define the new field. > > > > By the 1970s Joshua Fishman?s scholarship was recognized throughout > > the world for its importance and its relevance about the language > > issues prevalent in society. In 1973, he founded, and has since > > edited, The International Journal of the Sociology of Language, a > > journal of excellent international reputation. Joshua Fishman has also > > edited a related book series published by Mouton, Contributions to the > > Sociology of Language (CSL), with over 200 titles. In both of these > > endeavors Fishman has encouraged young scholars to research, write and > > publish, supporting and contributing to the academic careers of many > > throughout the world, especially in developing countries. For years he > > replied daily to letters and e-mails from students from all over the > > world. His greatest motivation has been dialoguing with many about the > > use of language in society and answering student questions. The world > was his classroom. > > > > While conducting an impressive body of research, and being responsive > > to the many who asked for advice, Fishman traveled extensively, > > encouraging the activities of those seeking to preserve endangered > > languages. He will be remembered by the M?oris of New Zealand, the > > Catalans and Basques of Spain, the Navajo and other Native Americans, > > the speakers of Quechua and Aymara in South America, and many other > > minority language groups for his warmth and encouragement. For a > > quarter-century, he wrote a column on Yiddish sociolinguistics in > > every issue of the quarterly Afn Shvel. He also wrote regularly on > > Yiddish and general sociolinguistic topics for the weekly Forverts. > > Together with his wife Gella Fishman, he established the extensive > > five-generational "Fishman Family Archives" at Stanford University > > library. In 2004 he received the prestigious UNESCO Linguapax Award in > Barcelona, Spain. > > > > Joshua Fishman?s prolific record of research and publication has > > continued until today, defining modern scholarship in bilingualism and > > multilingualism, bilingual and minority education, the relation of > > language and thought, the sociology and the social history of Yiddish, > > language policy and planning, language spread, language shift and > > maintenance, language and nationalism, language and ethnicity, > > post-imperial English, languages in New York, and ethnic, and national > > efforts to reverse language shift. > > > > His scholarly work with minority groups and with others engaged in the > > struggle to preserve their languages, cultures, and traditions has > > been inspired by a deep and heartfelt compassion that is always > > sustained by the markedly human tone of his most objective scholarly > writing. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Edling mailing list > > Edling@bunner.geol.lu.se > > http://bunner.geol.lu.se/mailman/listinfo/edling > > > > > > > > -- > > Myrna Goldstein, B.S.J., MATESL > > Founder, Director > > Are You in Your English File?? > > Second Language Learning Research Center Eilat, Israel, formerly of > > Milan, Italy > > e: myrnaenglishfile@gmail.com > > Skype: myinmi > > t: 00972 (0)53 5255360 > > > > > > -- > > *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box > 8144 > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Mon Mar 2 09:54:00 2015 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 12:54:00 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Joshua Fishman, R.I.P. In-Reply-To: <057e01d0550f$cbefdfb0$63cf9f10$@uic.edu> References: <057e01d0550f$cbefdfb0$63cf9f10$@uic.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for this Ari. His conclusion (copied below) is spot on in this age of much ado about posthumanism. With all of the advantages of technology that we all enjoy and use constantly, reminders like this are more valuable for their rarity. *Robert* In conclusion I want to tell you something about my grandchildren. My wife engages in laptop publishing. She publishes in the Yiddish language for our grandchildren. But let me tell you, *the true lap top *here is my lap and her lap and the laps of the children?s mother and father. That is a bond with the language that will stay with them after we are long gone. That is the lap top of language. And if you want that language revived, you have to use your lap also with your children or your grandchildren or somebody else?s children or grandchildren. Adopt a grandchild. Adopt the grandparents. It is your lap that is part of the link to sanctity, the link to kinship, and the link to purpose. Now, in our affluent American society it turns out that one of my grandchildren already has an e-mail account. He writes messages to me to give to one of his cousins on the other coast. I go from coast to coast throughout the year because I have grandchildren on each coast. I have got to be sure that they sit on my lap during the year. So he writes to his cousin on the other coast on e-mail. He has to transliterate the Yiddish language into Roman characters because e-mail only works in Roman characters, and he makes a lot of mistakes in that. But it is recognizable. He is only seven, and the last e-mail I received was a little note saying, ?I have got a little mechanical bird. It speaks Yiddish. Ha, ha. That?s a joke.? So there are family building, there are culture building, and there are intimacy building prerequisites for language fostering, things that you have to do because no school is going to do them. However, the school can put that on the agenda of what has to be done. The school has intellectuals in it. The school has a building, a budget, a time, and a place. Now it has to put the life of the language, not just the literacy of the language, not just the grammar of the language, not just the lexicon of the language, but the life of the language in the home and the community on its agenda if the language is going to be passed along. Reversing language shift is a research field, it is an applied field, it is a cultural values field, it has new horizons, there are new things to do, things that are, if you like, differently focused than the ordinary school has been. And reversing language shift asks, ?What happens with the mother tongue before school, in school, out of school, and after school?? so that it can be passed on from one generation to another. I started with a good question and I am ending with a good question and that is the question. ?What are you going to do with the mother tongue before school, in school, out of school, and after school?? Because that determines its fate, whether it is going to become self-renewing. That is my question for you, no joke! On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Aria Razfar wrote: > http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/jar/SIL/Fishman1.pdf > > > Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture > Director of Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction > University of Illinois at Chicago > 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > Chicago, IL, 60607 > > Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action > Research (ELMSA) > www.elmsa.org > > Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > Tel: 312-413-8373 > Fax: 312-996-8134 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Lake > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 11:25 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Joshua Fishman, R.I.P. > > Thanks for sharing this Peter. Does anyone have an article of his to share > with us? > Robert L. > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > > > > > From: Rosalind Horowitz [mailto:Rosalind.Horowitz@utsa.edu] > > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 11:34 AM > > To: Peter Smagorinsky > > Subject: Distribute to Listserv > > > > > > > > > > 2 March 2015 > > > > Dear Colleagues. > > > > Language, Culture, and Social Science experts across the world mourn > > the loss of Joshua Fishman, Professor Emeritus, Yeshiva University, > > New York. > > He was at the forefront of Bilingualism, Multilingualism, Language > > Preservation, Minorities and Language Shift and an advocate of > > Languages and Culture as a mark of Human Values. > > The history of Professor Fishman?s life is a history of the Sociology > > and Psychology of Language and human preservation of tradition and > culture. > > > > Rosalind Horowitz > > Professor, The University of Texas?San Antonio > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Ofelia Garcia [ogarcia@gc.cuny.edu] > > > > > > Joshua A. Fishman (1926-2015) > > > > A beloved teacher and influential scholar, Joshua A. Fishman passed > > away peacefully in his Bronx home, on Monday evening, March 1, 2015. > > He was 88 years old. Joshua A. Fishman leaves behind his devoted wife > > of over 60 years, Gella Schweid Fishman, three sons and > > daughters-in-law, nine grandchildren and two great-grandchildren. But > > he also leaves behind thousands of students throughout the world who > > have learned much from him about sociology of language, the field he > > founded, and also about the possibility of being a generous and > > committed scholar to language minority communities. As he once said, > > his life was his work and his work was his life. > > > > Joshua A. Fishman, nicknamed Shikl, was born in Philadelphia PA on > > July 18, 1926. Yiddish was the language of his childhood home, and his > > father regularly asked his sister, Rukhl, and him: ?What did you do > > for Yiddish today?? The struggle for Yiddish in Jewish life was the > > impetus for his scholarly work. After graduating from the University > > of Pennsylvania with a Masters degree in 1947, he collaborated with > > his good friend, Max Weinreich, the doyen of Yiddish linguistics, on a > > translation of Weinreich?s history of Yiddish. And it was through > > Yiddish that he came to another one of his interests ??that of > > bilingualism. In 1948 he received a prize from the YIVO Institute for > > Yiddish Research for a monograph on bilingualism. Yiddish and > > bilingualism were interests he developed throughout his scholarly life. > > > > After earning a PhD in social psychology from Columbia University in > > 1953, Joshua Fishman worked as a researcher for the College Entrance > > Examination Board. This experience focused his interest on educational > > pursuits, which eventually led to another strand of his scholarly work > > ?? that on bilingual education. It was around this time that he taught > > what came to be the first sociology of language course at The City > > College of New York. In 1958, he was appointed associate professor of > > human relations and psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, and > > two years later, moved to Yeshiva University. At Yeshiva University he > > was professor of psychology and sociology, Dean of the Ferkauf > > Graduate School of Social Science and Humanities, Academic Vice > > President, and Distinguished University Research Professor of Social > > sciences. In 1988, he became Professor Emeritus and began to divide > > the year between New York and California where he became visiting > > professor of education and linguistics at Stanford University. In the > > course of his career, Fishman held visiting appointments at over a > > dozen universities in the USA, Israel, and the Philippines, and > > fellowships at the Center for Advanced study (Stanford), the East West > > Center (Hawai?i) the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton, the > Netherlands Institute for Advanced Study, and the Israel Institute for > Advanced Study. > > > > Throughout his long career Joshua A. Fishman has published close to > > one hundred books and over a thousand articles. He has not only been > > prolific, but his original and complex ideas have been very > > influential in the academy, as well as extremely useful to language > > minorities through the world. His first major study of sociology of > > language, Language Loyalty in the United States, was published in > > 1964. A year later, he published Yiddish in America. In 1968, he > > published the earliest major collection dealing with language policy > > and management, Language problems of developing nations. In the same > > year, he edited and published Readings in the sociology of language, a > first attempt to define the new field. > > > > By the 1970s Joshua Fishman?s scholarship was recognized throughout > > the world for its importance and its relevance about the language > > issues prevalent in society. In 1973, he founded, and has since > > edited, The International Journal of the Sociology of Language, a > > journal of excellent international reputation. Joshua Fishman has also > > edited a related book series published by Mouton, Contributions to the > > Sociology of Language (CSL), with over 200 titles. In both of these > > endeavors Fishman has encouraged young scholars to research, write and > > publish, supporting and contributing to the academic careers of many > > throughout the world, especially in developing countries. For years he > > replied daily to letters and e-mails from students from all over the > > world. His greatest motivation has been dialoguing with many about the > > use of language in society and answering student questions. The world > was his classroom. > > > > While conducting an impressive body of research, and being responsive > > to the many who asked for advice, Fishman traveled extensively, > > encouraging the activities of those seeking to preserve endangered > > languages. He will be remembered by the M?oris of New Zealand, the > > Catalans and Basques of Spain, the Navajo and other Native Americans, > > the speakers of Quechua and Aymara in South America, and many other > > minority language groups for his warmth and encouragement. For a > > quarter-century, he wrote a column on Yiddish sociolinguistics in > > every issue of the quarterly Afn Shvel. He also wrote regularly on > > Yiddish and general sociolinguistic topics for the weekly Forverts. > > Together with his wife Gella Fishman, he established the extensive > > five-generational "Fishman Family Archives" at Stanford University > > library. In 2004 he received the prestigious UNESCO Linguapax Award in > Barcelona, Spain. > > > > Joshua Fishman?s prolific record of research and publication has > > continued until today, defining modern scholarship in bilingualism and > > multilingualism, bilingual and minority education, the relation of > > language and thought, the sociology and the social history of Yiddish, > > language policy and planning, language spread, language shift and > > maintenance, language and nationalism, language and ethnicity, > > post-imperial English, languages in New York, and ethnic, and national > > efforts to reverse language shift. > > > > His scholarly work with minority groups and with others engaged in the > > struggle to preserve their languages, cultures, and traditions has > > been inspired by a deep and heartfelt compassion that is always > > sustained by the markedly human tone of his most objective scholarly > writing. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Edling mailing list > > Edling@bunner.geol.lu.se > > http://bunner.geol.lu.se/mailman/listinfo/edling > > > > > > > > -- > > Myrna Goldstein, B.S.J., MATESL > > Founder, Director > > Are You in Your English File?? > > Second Language Learning Research Center Eilat, Israel, formerly of > > Milan, Italy > > e: myrnaenglishfile@gmail.com > > Skype: myinmi > > t: 00972 (0)53 5255360 > > > > > > -- > > *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box > 8144 > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Mar 2 10:54:23 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 18:54:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Joshua Fishman, R.I.P. In-Reply-To: References: <057e01d0550f$cbefdfb0$63cf9f10$@uic.edu>, Message-ID: <1425322463605.63012@unm.edu> I love the way Dr. Fishman writes. If an artist creates a personal language through symbols and signs (in color and form), then each time an artist dies, that language dies? Which made me think that it isn't just enough to consider what is lost when a language dies, but also when a speaker of that language dies, as that individual's experiences no longer have a means to express themselves to us. And if the speaker wrote, then what was written is the full total of what that individual will ever say to us. Kind regards, Annalisa From vygotsky@unm.edu Mon Mar 2 11:00:23 2015 From: vygotsky@unm.edu (Vera John-Steiner) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 12:00:23 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Joshua Fishman, R.I.P. In-Reply-To: References: <057e01d0550f$cbefdfb0$63cf9f10$@uic.edu> Message-ID: <001101d0551b$25bee5d0$713cb170$@edu> Joshua Fishman was a gentle soul even as a dean. I was at Yeshiva University for close to a decade and shared a year-long course with him reflecting our shared interest in language and linguistics. He was passionate about Yiddish and always went home early on Friday afternoons even if a meeting was held at the Ford Foundation. He convinced me to do some work on bilingualism. And together we established an interdisciplinary program in Educational Linguistics. He was able to maintain a warm personal relationship even when faced with deep differences in politics. He was held in high regard by Navajo educators. Vera -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 10:49 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Joshua Fishman, R.I.P. Thanks for forwarding Peter, inquiring Robert, and providing article, Aria. The final paragraph of the article on the problem of disappearing languages, published 20 years ago, might resonate with xmca readers: Reversing language shift is a research field, it is an applied field, it is a cultural values field, it has new horizons, there are new things to do, things that are, if you like, differently focused than the ordinary school has been. And reversing language shift asks, ?What happens with the mother tongue before school, in school, out of school, and after school?? so that it can be passed on from one generation to another. I started with a good question and I am ending with a good question and that is the question. ?What are you going to do with the mother tongue before school, in school, out of school, and after school?? Because that determines its fate, whether it is going to become self-renewing. That is my question for you, no joke! On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 9:39 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: > http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/jar/SIL/Fishman1.pdf > > > Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of > Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois at > Chicago > 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > Chicago, IL, 60607 > > Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action > Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org > > Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > Tel: 312-413-8373 > Fax: 312-996-8134 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Lake > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 11:25 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Joshua Fishman, R.I.P. > > Thanks for sharing this Peter. Does anyone have an article of his to > share with us? > Robert L. > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > > > > > From: Rosalind Horowitz [mailto:Rosalind.Horowitz@utsa.edu] > > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 11:34 AM > > To: Peter Smagorinsky > > Subject: Distribute to Listserv > > > > > > > > > > 2 March 2015 > > > > Dear Colleagues. > > > > Language, Culture, and Social Science experts across the world mourn > > the loss of Joshua Fishman, Professor Emeritus, Yeshiva University, > > New York. > > He was at the forefront of Bilingualism, Multilingualism, Language > > Preservation, Minorities and Language Shift and an advocate of > > Languages and Culture as a mark of Human Values. > > The history of Professor Fishman?s life is a history of the > > Sociology and Psychology of Language and human preservation of > > tradition and > culture. > > > > Rosalind Horowitz > > Professor, The University of Texas?San Antonio > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Ofelia Garcia > > [ogarcia@gc.cuny.edu] > > > > > > Joshua A. Fishman (1926-2015) > > > > A beloved teacher and influential scholar, Joshua A. Fishman passed > > away peacefully in his Bronx home, on Monday evening, March 1, 2015. > > He was 88 years old. Joshua A. Fishman leaves behind his devoted > > wife of over 60 years, Gella Schweid Fishman, three sons and > > daughters-in-law, nine grandchildren and two great-grandchildren. > > But he also leaves behind thousands of students throughout the world > > who have learned much from him about sociology of language, the > > field he founded, and also about the possibility of being a generous > > and committed scholar to language minority communities. As he once > > said, his life was his work and his work was his life. > > > > Joshua A. Fishman, nicknamed Shikl, was born in Philadelphia PA on > > July 18, 1926. Yiddish was the language of his childhood home, and > > his father regularly asked his sister, Rukhl, and him: ?What did you > > do for Yiddish today?? The struggle for Yiddish in Jewish life was > > the impetus for his scholarly work. After graduating from the > > University of Pennsylvania with a Masters degree in 1947, he > > collaborated with his good friend, Max Weinreich, the doyen of > > Yiddish linguistics, on a translation of Weinreich?s history of > > Yiddish. And it was through Yiddish that he came to another one of > > his interests ??that of bilingualism. In 1948 he received a prize > > from the YIVO Institute for Yiddish Research for a monograph on > > bilingualism. Yiddish and bilingualism were interests he developed throughout his scholarly life. > > > > After earning a PhD in social psychology from Columbia University in > > 1953, Joshua Fishman worked as a researcher for the College Entrance > > Examination Board. This experience focused his interest on > > educational pursuits, which eventually led to another strand of his > > scholarly work ?? that on bilingual education. It was around this > > time that he taught what came to be the first sociology of language > > course at The City College of New York. In 1958, he was appointed > > associate professor of human relations and psychology at the > > University of Pennsylvania, and two years later, moved to Yeshiva > > University. At Yeshiva University he was professor of psychology and > > sociology, Dean of the Ferkauf Graduate School of Social Science and > > Humanities, Academic Vice President, and Distinguished University > > Research Professor of Social sciences. In 1988, he became Professor > > Emeritus and began to divide the year between New York and > > California where he became visiting professor of education and > > linguistics at Stanford University. In the course of his career, > > Fishman held visiting appointments at over a dozen universities in > > the USA, Israel, and the Philippines, and fellowships at the Center > > for Advanced study (Stanford), the East West Center (Hawai?i) the > > Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton, the > Netherlands Institute for Advanced Study, and the Israel Institute for > Advanced Study. > > > > Throughout his long career Joshua A. Fishman has published close to > > one hundred books and over a thousand articles. He has not only been > > prolific, but his original and complex ideas have been very > > influential in the academy, as well as extremely useful to language > > minorities through the world. His first major study of sociology of > > language, Language Loyalty in the United States, was published in > > 1964. A year later, he published Yiddish in America. In 1968, he > > published the earliest major collection dealing with language policy > > and management, Language problems of developing nations. In the same > > year, he edited and published Readings in the sociology of language, > > a > first attempt to define the new field. > > > > By the 1970s Joshua Fishman?s scholarship was recognized throughout > > the world for its importance and its relevance about the language > > issues prevalent in society. In 1973, he founded, and has since > > edited, The International Journal of the Sociology of Language, a > > journal of excellent international reputation. Joshua Fishman has > > also edited a related book series published by Mouton, Contributions > > to the Sociology of Language (CSL), with over 200 titles. In both of > > these endeavors Fishman has encouraged young scholars to research, > > write and publish, supporting and contributing to the academic > > careers of many throughout the world, especially in developing > > countries. For years he replied daily to letters and e-mails from > > students from all over the world. His greatest motivation has been > > dialoguing with many about the use of language in society and > > answering student questions. The world > was his classroom. > > > > While conducting an impressive body of research, and being > > responsive to the many who asked for advice, Fishman traveled > > extensively, encouraging the activities of those seeking to preserve > > endangered languages. He will be remembered by the M?oris of New > > Zealand, the Catalans and Basques of Spain, the Navajo and other > > Native Americans, the speakers of Quechua and Aymara in South > > America, and many other minority language groups for his warmth and > > encouragement. For a quarter-century, he wrote a column on Yiddish > > sociolinguistics in every issue of the quarterly Afn Shvel. He also > > wrote regularly on Yiddish and general sociolinguistic topics for the weekly Forverts. > > Together with his wife Gella Fishman, he established the extensive > > five-generational "Fishman Family Archives" at Stanford University > > library. In 2004 he received the prestigious UNESCO Linguapax Award > > in > Barcelona, Spain. > > > > Joshua Fishman?s prolific record of research and publication has > > continued until today, defining modern scholarship in bilingualism > > and multilingualism, bilingual and minority education, the relation > > of language and thought, the sociology and the social history of > > Yiddish, language policy and planning, language spread, language > > shift and maintenance, language and nationalism, language and > > ethnicity, post-imperial English, languages in New York, and ethnic, > > and national efforts to reverse language shift. > > > > His scholarly work with minority groups and with others engaged in > > the struggle to preserve their languages, cultures, and traditions > > has been inspired by a deep and heartfelt compassion that is always > > sustained by the markedly human tone of his most objective scholarly > writing. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Edling mailing list > > Edling@bunner.geol.lu.se > > http://bunner.geol.lu.se/mailman/listinfo/edling > > > > > > > > -- > > Myrna Goldstein, B.S.J., MATESL > > Founder, Director > > Are You in Your English File?? > > Second Language Learning Research Center Eilat, Israel, formerly of > > Milan, Italy > > e: myrnaenglishfile@gmail.com > > Skype: myinmi > > t: 00972 (0)53 5255360 > > > > > > -- > > *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of > Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia > Southern University > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. > Box > 8144 > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Mar 2 13:27:13 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 14:27:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Joshua Fishman, R.I.P.: Tikkun Olam In-Reply-To: <001101d0551b$25bee5d0$713cb170$@edu> References: <057e01d0550f$cbefdfb0$63cf9f10$@uic.edu> <001101d0551b$25bee5d0$713cb170$@edu> Message-ID: Vera, So I owe a lot to Joshua Fishman, since I am a graduate of the Educational Linguistics program at the University of New Mexico that you and he crafted. I had taught high school on the Navajo Reservation from 1977 to 1981 just prior to applying for the Ed Ling program that you and Spolsky had just established at UNM. Reading the article by Fishman that Aria sent us (Stabalizing Indigenous Languages) reminded me of all the reasons I wanted to do my doctoral work in Ed Ling. Fishman?s focus in the article on ?lap talk?, intergeneratiional connections profiled in the final paragraph Robert Lake sent us, seems right on the mark to me. When a language dies, the divide between grandparent and grandchild is especially traumatic for native people such as the Navajo. This is a wound in need of healing. The revival of Hebrew as a spoken language helped make Fishman (which he discusses in the article) and you are particularly passionate and effective proponents of indigenous language revival projects in here in New Mexico, some of which I have been deeply involved in. In May, Native American Community Academy, where I have been working lately, will be sending a group of students and staff to New Zealand to meet with the staff and students of the in-going Maori language project Fishman describes in the article from Aria. It is fair to say that Joshua and you are grandparents to these NACA students. Healing the wounds of modernity, tikkun olam. Whatever form a repaired world takes, it seems to me it needs to take into account the tribal origins of us all and the importance of ?lap talk?. How cool that Fishman and could be so warm, even when faced with deep differences in politics. How hopeful. Gratefully, Henry > On Mar 2, 2015, at 12:00 PM, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > > Joshua Fishman was a gentle soul even as a dean. I was at Yeshiva University for close to a decade and shared a year-long course with him reflecting our shared interest in language > and linguistics. He was passionate about Yiddish and always went home early on Friday afternoons even if a meeting was held at the Ford Foundation. He convinced me to do some work on bilingualism. And together we established an interdisciplinary program in Educational Linguistics. He was able to maintain a warm personal relationship even when faced with deep differences in politics. He was held in high regard by Navajo educators. > > Vera > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 10:49 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Joshua Fishman, R.I.P. > > Thanks for forwarding Peter, inquiring Robert, and providing article, Aria. > > > The final paragraph of the article on the problem of disappearing languages, published 20 years ago, might resonate with xmca readers: > > Reversing language shift is a research field, it is an applied field, it is a cultural values field, it has new horizons, there are new things to do, things that are, if you like, differently focused than the ordinary school has been. And reversing language shift asks, ?What happens with the mother tongue before school, in school, out of school, and after school?? so that it can be passed on from one generation to another. I started with a good question and I am ending with a good question and that is the question. > ?What are you going to do with the mother tongue before school, in school, out of school, and after school?? Because that determines its fate, whether it is going to become self-renewing. That is my question for you, no joke! > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 9:39 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: > >> http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/jar/SIL/Fishman1.pdf >> >> >> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois at >> Chicago >> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >> Chicago, IL, 60607 >> >> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action >> Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >> >> Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >> Tel: 312-413-8373 >> Fax: 312-996-8134 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Lake >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 11:25 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Joshua Fishman, R.I.P. >> >> Thanks for sharing this Peter. Does anyone have an article of his to >> share with us? >> Robert L. >> >> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> From: Rosalind Horowitz [mailto:Rosalind.Horowitz@utsa.edu] >>> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 11:34 AM >>> To: Peter Smagorinsky >>> Subject: Distribute to Listserv >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 2 March 2015 >>> >>> Dear Colleagues. >>> >>> Language, Culture, and Social Science experts across the world mourn >>> the loss of Joshua Fishman, Professor Emeritus, Yeshiva University, >>> New York. >>> He was at the forefront of Bilingualism, Multilingualism, Language >>> Preservation, Minorities and Language Shift and an advocate of >>> Languages and Culture as a mark of Human Values. >>> The history of Professor Fishman?s life is a history of the >>> Sociology and Psychology of Language and human preservation of >>> tradition and >> culture. >>> >>> Rosalind Horowitz >>> Professor, The University of Texas?San Antonio >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Ofelia Garcia >>> [ogarcia@gc.cuny.edu] >>> >>> >>> Joshua A. Fishman (1926-2015) >>> >>> A beloved teacher and influential scholar, Joshua A. Fishman passed >>> away peacefully in his Bronx home, on Monday evening, March 1, 2015. >>> He was 88 years old. Joshua A. Fishman leaves behind his devoted >>> wife of over 60 years, Gella Schweid Fishman, three sons and >>> daughters-in-law, nine grandchildren and two great-grandchildren. >>> But he also leaves behind thousands of students throughout the world >>> who have learned much from him about sociology of language, the >>> field he founded, and also about the possibility of being a generous >>> and committed scholar to language minority communities. As he once >>> said, his life was his work and his work was his life. >>> >>> Joshua A. Fishman, nicknamed Shikl, was born in Philadelphia PA on >>> July 18, 1926. Yiddish was the language of his childhood home, and >>> his father regularly asked his sister, Rukhl, and him: ?What did you >>> do for Yiddish today?? The struggle for Yiddish in Jewish life was >>> the impetus for his scholarly work. After graduating from the >>> University of Pennsylvania with a Masters degree in 1947, he >>> collaborated with his good friend, Max Weinreich, the doyen of >>> Yiddish linguistics, on a translation of Weinreich?s history of >>> Yiddish. And it was through Yiddish that he came to another one of >>> his interests ??that of bilingualism. In 1948 he received a prize >>> from the YIVO Institute for Yiddish Research for a monograph on >>> bilingualism. Yiddish and bilingualism were interests he developed throughout his scholarly life. >>> >>> After earning a PhD in social psychology from Columbia University in >>> 1953, Joshua Fishman worked as a researcher for the College Entrance >>> Examination Board. This experience focused his interest on >>> educational pursuits, which eventually led to another strand of his >>> scholarly work ?? that on bilingual education. It was around this >>> time that he taught what came to be the first sociology of language >>> course at The City College of New York. In 1958, he was appointed >>> associate professor of human relations and psychology at the >>> University of Pennsylvania, and two years later, moved to Yeshiva >>> University. At Yeshiva University he was professor of psychology and >>> sociology, Dean of the Ferkauf Graduate School of Social Science and >>> Humanities, Academic Vice President, and Distinguished University >>> Research Professor of Social sciences. In 1988, he became Professor >>> Emeritus and began to divide the year between New York and >>> California where he became visiting professor of education and >>> linguistics at Stanford University. In the course of his career, >>> Fishman held visiting appointments at over a dozen universities in >>> the USA, Israel, and the Philippines, and fellowships at the Center >>> for Advanced study (Stanford), the East West Center (Hawai?i) the >>> Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton, the >> Netherlands Institute for Advanced Study, and the Israel Institute for >> Advanced Study. >>> >>> Throughout his long career Joshua A. Fishman has published close to >>> one hundred books and over a thousand articles. He has not only been >>> prolific, but his original and complex ideas have been very >>> influential in the academy, as well as extremely useful to language >>> minorities through the world. His first major study of sociology of >>> language, Language Loyalty in the United States, was published in >>> 1964. A year later, he published Yiddish in America. In 1968, he >>> published the earliest major collection dealing with language policy >>> and management, Language problems of developing nations. In the same >>> year, he edited and published Readings in the sociology of language, >>> a >> first attempt to define the new field. >>> >>> By the 1970s Joshua Fishman?s scholarship was recognized throughout >>> the world for its importance and its relevance about the language >>> issues prevalent in society. In 1973, he founded, and has since >>> edited, The International Journal of the Sociology of Language, a >>> journal of excellent international reputation. Joshua Fishman has >>> also edited a related book series published by Mouton, Contributions >>> to the Sociology of Language (CSL), with over 200 titles. In both of >>> these endeavors Fishman has encouraged young scholars to research, >>> write and publish, supporting and contributing to the academic >>> careers of many throughout the world, especially in developing >>> countries. For years he replied daily to letters and e-mails from >>> students from all over the world. His greatest motivation has been >>> dialoguing with many about the use of language in society and >>> answering student questions. The world >> was his classroom. >>> >>> While conducting an impressive body of research, and being >>> responsive to the many who asked for advice, Fishman traveled >>> extensively, encouraging the activities of those seeking to preserve >>> endangered languages. He will be remembered by the M?oris of New >>> Zealand, the Catalans and Basques of Spain, the Navajo and other >>> Native Americans, the speakers of Quechua and Aymara in South >>> America, and many other minority language groups for his warmth and >>> encouragement. For a quarter-century, he wrote a column on Yiddish >>> sociolinguistics in every issue of the quarterly Afn Shvel. He also >>> wrote regularly on Yiddish and general sociolinguistic topics for the weekly Forverts. >>> Together with his wife Gella Fishman, he established the extensive >>> five-generational "Fishman Family Archives" at Stanford University >>> library. In 2004 he received the prestigious UNESCO Linguapax Award >>> in >> Barcelona, Spain. >>> >>> Joshua Fishman?s prolific record of research and publication has >>> continued until today, defining modern scholarship in bilingualism >>> and multilingualism, bilingual and minority education, the relation >>> of language and thought, the sociology and the social history of >>> Yiddish, language policy and planning, language spread, language >>> shift and maintenance, language and nationalism, language and >>> ethnicity, post-imperial English, languages in New York, and ethnic, >>> and national efforts to reverse language shift. >>> >>> His scholarly work with minority groups and with others engaged in >>> the struggle to preserve their languages, cultures, and traditions >>> has been inspired by a deep and heartfelt compassion that is always >>> sustained by the markedly human tone of his most objective scholarly >> writing. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Edling mailing list >>> Edling@bunner.geol.lu.se >>> http://bunner.geol.lu.se/mailman/listinfo/edling >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Myrna Goldstein, B.S.J., MATESL >>> Founder, Director >>> Are You in Your English File?? >>> Second Language Learning Research Center Eilat, Israel, formerly of >>> Milan, Italy >>> e: myrnaenglishfile@gmail.com >>> Skype: myinmi >>> t: 00972 (0)53 5255360 >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of >> Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia >> Southern University >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. >> Box >> 8144 >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >> Statesboro, GA 30460 >> >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > From cconnery@ithaca.edu Mon Mar 2 13:31:07 2015 From: cconnery@ithaca.edu (Cathrene Connery) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 21:31:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Joshua Fishman, R.I.P. In-Reply-To: <1425322463605.63012@unm.edu> References: <057e01d0550f$cbefdfb0$63cf9f10$@uic.edu>, , <1425322463605.63012@unm.edu> Message-ID: Wow, Annalisa. That was breathtaking! ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar [annalisa@unm.edu] Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 1:54 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Joshua Fishman, R.I.P. I love the way Dr. Fishman writes. If an artist creates a personal language through symbols and signs (in color and form), then each time an artist dies, that language dies? Which made me think that it isn't just enough to consider what is lost when a language dies, but also when a speaker of that language dies, as that individual's experiences no longer have a means to express themselves to us. And if the speaker wrote, then what was written is the full total of what that individual will ever say to us. Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Mar 2 15:01:08 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 15:01:08 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] "cultivating Minds Message-ID: Mike, I continued to explore Urs Furher's book that you mentioned on Simmel that would be potentially beneficial to follow. In my explorations I came across this article on the metaphor of "traces" or "footprints" in the XMCA archives. It was written in 1993 and is an interesting perspective on the metaphor of cultivation AS FOOTPRINTS. It is the third article in the newsletter. Urs is pointing to the reciprocal processes of "internalizing" and "externalizing" the inner "affective sense" of "place" through attachment to "home" and "vehicle" as concrete ways to form one's identity through attachment/security needs and autonomy needs. Larry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~$RCH 3 2015 BOESCH ERNST XMCA.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 162 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150302/acc2634c/attachment.bin From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Mar 2 15:23:05 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 15:23:05 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Amazing "coincidence" Larry--- I just wrote to Urs who I have not corresponded with for years as a result of going through his book on cultivating minds. It has a chapter on behavior settings as media for promoting children's development that has me re-thinking a number of issues. Among other things, there is a very interesting discussion of Roger Barker's research program. Very worth while I could not open that file you sent, but I found the link to the journal article. Its here: http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ja93v15n1.PDF There are a number of other interesting/relevant articles there. "The sound of the violin" is a favorite. Thanks for reminding us of Simmel. Today, March 1, was his birthday! Coincidence? mike On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Mike, > I continued to explore Urs Furher's book that you mentioned on Simmel that > would be potentially beneficial to follow. In my explorations I came across > this article on the metaphor of "traces" or "footprints" in the XMCA > archives. It was written in 1993 and is an interesting perspective on the > metaphor of cultivation AS FOOTPRINTS. It is the third article in the > newsletter. > Urs is pointing to the reciprocal processes of "internalizing" and > "externalizing" the inner "affective sense" of "place" through attachment > to "home" and "vehicle" as concrete ways to form one's identity through > attachment/security needs and autonomy needs. > Larry > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From s.franklin08@btinternet.com Mon Mar 2 13:29:14 2015 From: s.franklin08@btinternet.com (Shirley Franklin) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 21:29:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [EAL-Bilingual;3815] Sad news -- Joshua A. Fishman References: <980F8F76DEF5564CA1279D92119E205E172ECFB5@EX10-MBX-LIVE-B.open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <87438267-7DEB-47BA-8D29-804C293AD262@btinternet.com> : > > > From: Ofelia Garcia [ogarcia@gc.cuny.edu] > > Joshua A. Fishman (1926-2015) > > A beloved teacher and influential scholar, Joshua A. Fishman passed away peacefully in his Bronx home, on Monday evening, March 1, 2015. He was 88 years old. Joshua A. Fishman leaves behind his devoted wife of over 60 years, Gella Schweid Fishman, three sons and daughters-in-law, nine grandchildren and two great-grandchildren. But he also leaves behind thousands of students throughout the world who have learned much from him about sociology of language, the field he founded, and also about the possibility of being a generous and committed scholar to language minority communities. As he once said, his life was his work and his work was his life. > > Joshua A. Fishman, nicknamed Shikl, was born in Philadelphia PA on July 18, 1926. Yiddish was the language of his childhood home, and his father regularly asked his sister, Rukhl, and him: ?What did you do for Yiddish today?? The struggle for Yiddish in Jewish life was the impetus for his scholarly work. After graduating from the University of Pennsylvania with a Masters degree in 1947, he collaborated with his good friend, Max Weinreich, the doyen of Yiddish linguistics, on a translation of Weinreich?s history of Yiddish. And it was through Yiddish that he came to another one of his interests ??that of bilingualism. In 1948 he received a prize from the YIVO Institute for Yiddish Research for a monograph on bilingualism. Yiddish and bilingualism were interests he developed throughout his scholarly life. > > After earning a PhD in social psychology from Columbia University in 1953, Joshua Fishman worked as a researcher for the College Entrance Examination Board. This experience focused his interest on educational pursuits, which eventually led to another strand of his scholarly work ?? that on bilingual education. It was around this time that he taught what came to be the first sociology of language course at The City College of New York. In 1958, he was appointed associate professor of human relations and psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, and two years later, moved to Yeshiva University. At Yeshiva University he was professor of psychology and sociology, Dean of the Ferkauf Graduate School of Social Science and Humanities, Academic Vice President, and Distinguished University Research Professor of Social sciences. In 1988, he became Professor Emeritus and began to divide the year between New York and California where he became visiting professor of education and linguistics at Stanford University. In the course of his career, Fishman held visiting appointments at over a dozen universities in the USA, Israel, and the Philippines, and fellowships at the Center for Advanced study (Stanford), the East West Center (Hawai?i) the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton, the Netherlands Institute for Advanced Study, and the Israel Institute for Advanced Study. > > Throughout his long career Joshua A. Fishman has published close to one hundred books and over a thousand articles. He has not only been prolific, but his original and complex ideas have been very influential in the academy, as well as extremely useful to language minorities through the world. His first major study of sociology of language, Language Loyalty in the United States, was published in 1964. A year later, he published Yiddish in America. In 1968, he published the earliest major collection dealing with language policy and management, Language problems of developing nations. In the same year, he edited and publishedReadings in the sociology of language, a first attempt to define the new field. > > By the 1970s Joshua Fishman?s scholarship was recognized throughout the world for its importance and its relevance about the language issues prevalent in society. In 1973, he founded, and has since edited, The International Journal of the Sociology of Language, a journal of excellent international reputation. Joshua Fishman has also edited a related book series published by Mouton, Contributions to the Sociology of Language (CSL), with over 200 titles. In both of these endeavors Fishman has encouraged young scholars to research, write and publish, supporting and contributing to the academic careers of many throughout the world, especially in developing countries. For years he replied daily to letters and e-mails from students from all over the world. His greatest motivation has been dialoguing with many about the use of language in society and answering student questions. The world was his classroom. > > While conducting an impressive body of research, and being responsive to the many who asked for advice, Fishman traveled extensively, encouraging the activities of those seeking to preserve endangered languages. He will be remembered by the M?oris of New Zealand, the Catalans and Basques of Spain, the Navajo and other Native Americans, the speakers of Quechua and Aymara in South America, and many other minority language groups for his warmth and encouragement. For a quarter-century, he wrote a column on Yiddish sociolinguistics in every issue of the quarterly Afn Shvel. He also wrote regularly on Yiddish and general sociolinguistic topics for the weekly Forverts. Together with his wife Gella Fishman, he established the extensive five-generational "Fishman Family Archives" at Stanford University library. In 2004 he received the prestigious UNESCO Linguapax Award in Barcelona, Spain. > > Joshua Fishman?s prolific record of research and publication has continued until today, defining modern scholarship in bilingualism and multilingualism, bilingual and minority education, the relation of language and thought, the sociology and the social history of Yiddish, language policy and planning, language spread, language shift and maintenance, language and nationalism, language and ethnicity, post-imperial English, languages in New York, and ethnic, and national efforts to reverse language shift. > > His scholarly work with minority groups and with others engaged in the struggle to preserve their languages, cultures, and traditions has been inspired by a deep and heartfelt compassion that is always sustained by the markedly human tone of his most objective scholarly writing. > > > Dr. Charlotte Franson > > Deputy Chair NALDIC: www.naldic.org.uk > PhD Supervisor Canterbury Christ Church University: www.canterbury.ac.uk > > > > > > > > > > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. > > -- > This group is managed by NALDIC, the UK's EAL Professional Association. Please visit our website for further information: www.naldic.org.uk > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "EAL-bilingual" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to eal-bilingual+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send an email to eal-bilingual@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/eal-bilingual. > To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/eal-bilingual/980F8F76DEF5564CA1279D92119E205E172ECFB5%40EX10-MBX-LIVE-B.open.ac.uk. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Mar 2 19:47:01 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 19:47:01 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, I will follow further in Simmels and Urs Furher's footsteps as this theme also brings in Ernst Boesch's theory of "symbolic action" which was developed as a notion that all phenomena [including action] have both objective and symbolic "aspects". Boesch wrote: "This 'pervasiveness' of symbolism may be easy to grasp for a psychologist with psychoanalytic experience or with strong artistic tastes; in my case, however, although I believe myself to have a bit of both, this insight had much more 'rational' roots. ... I trace its inception back to the 1963 article 'Raum und Zeit als Valenzsysteme', in which I formulated, for the first time, the close *interrelatedness of 'valence' *[LP- worth/value ] and 'structure': the conceptual structuring of space depends, I said, upon the location of valences [worth/values] - it was the *'wish to return' *which led to the specification and stability of *places.*" [cited in "reasons For a Symbolic Concept of Action" in Culture and Psychology 1997 Volume 3(3): pages 423-431] I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" [multiple worths and values] as symbolic actions. Larry On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:23 PM, mike cole wrote: > Amazing "coincidence" Larry--- I just wrote to Urs who I have not > corresponded with for years as a result of going through his book on > cultivating minds. It has a chapter on behavior > settings as media for promoting children's development that has me > re-thinking a number of issues. Among other things, there is a very > interesting discussion of Roger Barker's research program. Very worth while > > I could not open that file you sent, but I found the link to the journal > article. Its here: > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ja93v15n1.PDF > > There are a number of other interesting/relevant articles there. "The sound > of the violin" is a favorite. > > Thanks for reminding us of Simmel. > Today, March 1, was his birthday! > Coincidence? > mike > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Mike, > > I continued to explore Urs Furher's book that you mentioned on Simmel > that > > would be potentially beneficial to follow. In my explorations I came > across > > this article on the metaphor of "traces" or "footprints" in the XMCA > > archives. It was written in 1993 and is an interesting perspective on the > > metaphor of cultivation AS FOOTPRINTS. It is the third article in the > > newsletter. > > Urs is pointing to the reciprocal processes of "internalizing" and > > "externalizing" the inner "affective sense" of "place" through attachment > > to "home" and "vehicle" as concrete ways to form one's identity through > > attachment/security needs and autonomy needs. > > Larry > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Mar 2 21:43:12 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 22:43:12 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> Larry and Mike, I think you guys are on to something. Thank goodness for valence, the salt of the earth according to the McGarrigles: KATE & ANNA MCGARRIGLE "NaCl" Just a little atom of Chlorine, valence minus one Swimming through the sea, digging the scene, just having fun She's not worried about the shape or size of her outside shell It's fun to ionize Just a little atom of Cl with an unfilled shell But somewhere in that sea lurks handsome Sodium With enough electrons on his outside shell plus that extra one Somewhere in this deep blue sea there's a negative For my extra energy Yes, somewhere in this foam my positive will find a home Then unsuspecting Chlorine felt a magnetic pull She looked down and her outside shell was full Sodium cried, "What a gas, be my bride And I'll change your name from Chlorine to chloride!" Now the sea evaporates to make the clouds for the rain and snow Leaving her chemical compounds in the absence of H2O But the crystals that wash upon the shore are happy ones So, if you never thought before Think of the love that you eat when you salt you meat! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI Henry > On Mar 2, 2015, at 8:47 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > Mike, > I will follow further in Simmels and Urs Furher's footsteps as this > theme also brings in Ernst Boesch's theory of "symbolic action" which was > developed as a notion that all phenomena [including action] have both > objective and symbolic "aspects". Boesch wrote: > > "This 'pervasiveness' of symbolism may be easy to grasp for a psychologist > with psychoanalytic experience or with strong artistic tastes; in my case, > however, although I believe myself to have a bit of both, this insight had > much more 'rational' roots. ... I trace its inception back to the 1963 > article 'Raum und Zeit als Valenzsysteme', in which I formulated, for the > first time, the close *interrelatedness of 'valence' *[LP- worth/value ] > and 'structure': the conceptual structuring of space depends, I said, upon > the location of valences [worth/values] - it was the *'wish to return' *which > led to the specification and stability of *places.*" [cited in "reasons > For a Symbolic Concept of Action" in Culture and Psychology 1997 > Volume 3(3): pages 423-431] > > I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all > following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" [multiple worths > and values] as symbolic actions. > > Larry > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:23 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Amazing "coincidence" Larry--- I just wrote to Urs who I have not >> corresponded with for years as a result of going through his book on >> cultivating minds. It has a chapter on behavior >> settings as media for promoting children's development that has me >> re-thinking a number of issues. Among other things, there is a very >> interesting discussion of Roger Barker's research program. Very worth while >> >> I could not open that file you sent, but I found the link to the journal >> article. Its here: >> >> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ja93v15n1.PDF >> >> There are a number of other interesting/relevant articles there. "The sound >> of the violin" is a favorite. >> >> Thanks for reminding us of Simmel. >> Today, March 1, was his birthday! >> Coincidence? >> mike >> >> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >> >>> Mike, >>> I continued to explore Urs Furher's book that you mentioned on Simmel >> that >>> would be potentially beneficial to follow. In my explorations I came >> across >>> this article on the metaphor of "traces" or "footprints" in the XMCA >>> archives. It was written in 1993 and is an interesting perspective on the >>> metaphor of cultivation AS FOOTPRINTS. It is the third article in the >>> newsletter. >>> Urs is pointing to the reciprocal processes of "internalizing" and >>> "externalizing" the inner "affective sense" of "place" through attachment >>> to "home" and "vehicle" as concrete ways to form one's identity through >>> attachment/security needs and autonomy needs. >>> Larry >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Mar 3 06:45:52 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 06:45:52 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Henry, Let's follow further the opening comment of the song [this is an "approach that has gone out of favour in the scientific world] Poetry as "metaphor" but not "mere" metaphor as the handmaiden of the "realistic" and the "conceptual" Rather "metaphor AS realistic" and also the reciprocal "the realistic AS metaphorical" Chemicals as personifications [anthro-morphisms] "attract" each other. I am "implicating" metaphor and valences AND rational conceptions as equal "partners" in "approaching" the notion of life as "vitality" [another notion that has gone out of fashion I am suggesting that this "theme" of "life" as vital/dead seems to "play" out and also "play" within internal/external "dramas". Daniel Stern most recent book is on the notion of "vitality" Also Heidegger's notion of "care and concern". Just saying - Larry On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 9:43 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Larry and Mike, > I think you guys are on to something. Thank goodness for valence, the salt > of the earth according to the McGarrigles: > > KATE & ANNA MCGARRIGLE > "NaCl" > Just a little atom of Chlorine, valence minus one > Swimming through the sea, digging the scene, just having fun > She's not worried about the shape or size of her outside shell > It's fun to ionize > Just a little atom of Cl with an unfilled shell > But somewhere in that sea lurks handsome Sodium > With enough electrons on his outside shell plus that extra one > Somewhere in this deep blue sea there's a negative > For my extra energy > Yes, somewhere in this foam my positive will find a home > Then unsuspecting Chlorine felt a magnetic pull > She looked down and her outside shell was full > Sodium cried, "What a gas, be my bride > And I'll change your name from Chlorine to chloride!" > Now the sea evaporates to make the clouds for the rain and snow > Leaving her chemical compounds in the absence of H2O > But the crystals that wash upon the shore are happy ones > So, if you never thought before > Think of the love that you eat when you salt you meat! > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI < > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI> > > Henry > > > > > > > > On Mar 2, 2015, at 8:47 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > Mike, > > I will follow further in Simmels and Urs Furher's footsteps as this > > theme also brings in Ernst Boesch's theory of "symbolic action" which was > > developed as a notion that all phenomena [including action] have both > > objective and symbolic "aspects". Boesch wrote: > > > > "This 'pervasiveness' of symbolism may be easy to grasp for a > psychologist > > with psychoanalytic experience or with strong artistic tastes; in my > case, > > however, although I believe myself to have a bit of both, this insight > had > > much more 'rational' roots. ... I trace its inception back to the 1963 > > article 'Raum und Zeit als Valenzsysteme', in which I formulated, for the > > first time, the close *interrelatedness of 'valence' *[LP- worth/value ] > > and 'structure': the conceptual structuring of space depends, I said, > upon > > the location of valences [worth/values] - it was the *'wish to return' > *which > > led to the specification and stability of *places.*" [cited in "reasons > > For a Symbolic Concept of Action" in Culture and Psychology 1997 > > Volume 3(3): pages 423-431] > > > > I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all > > following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" [multiple > worths > > and values] as symbolic actions. > > > > Larry > > > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:23 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> Amazing "coincidence" Larry--- I just wrote to Urs who I have not > >> corresponded with for years as a result of going through his book on > >> cultivating minds. It has a chapter on behavior > >> settings as media for promoting children's development that has me > >> re-thinking a number of issues. Among other things, there is a very > >> interesting discussion of Roger Barker's research program. Very worth > while > >> > >> I could not open that file you sent, but I found the link to the journal > >> article. Its here: > >> > >> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ja93v15n1.PDF > >> > >> There are a number of other interesting/relevant articles there. "The > sound > >> of the violin" is a favorite. > >> > >> Thanks for reminding us of Simmel. > >> Today, March 1, was his birthday! > >> Coincidence? > >> mike > >> > >> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > >> > >>> Mike, > >>> I continued to explore Urs Furher's book that you mentioned on Simmel > >> that > >>> would be potentially beneficial to follow. In my explorations I came > >> across > >>> this article on the metaphor of "traces" or "footprints" in the XMCA > >>> archives. It was written in 1993 and is an interesting perspective on > the > >>> metaphor of cultivation AS FOOTPRINTS. It is the third article in the > >>> newsletter. > >>> Urs is pointing to the reciprocal processes of "internalizing" and > >>> "externalizing" the inner "affective sense" of "place" through > attachment > >>> to "home" and "vehicle" as concrete ways to form one's identity through > >>> attachment/security needs and autonomy needs. > >>> Larry > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >> > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Mar 3 09:51:32 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 10:51:32 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8FF4CB36-A23B-4301-903A-E59FAD369C6F@gmail.com> Larry, I am mashing up serveral themes lately in the chat braid: Style and authenticity: Are they compatible? I am thinking about the discussion of performance art. Annalisa posted a radio podcast about professional wrestling. Is it fake, and if so, so what? it?s just entertainment. And makes lots of money. Your three definitions of FREEDOM come to mind (boiled way down, leaving just the salt): 1) autonomy, 2) expression of AUTHENTIC self, 3) collaborative/creaiive hoping. So, I see PLAY saving the day in that third, hopeful space, that sweet spot. Where people play at being both stylish and authentic. That would never go out of style. That would be vital. And wouldn?t be dreadfully boring. I look back at the previous paragraph and thought I might try to unpack it, but that would be even more arrogant than having written it in the first place. So, let?s just leave it there. Play with it. Come on, peeps, come out and play!! Snow has melted here in the Break Bad City, all mud puddle luscious. We?re high desert, so this is a real treat. Sorry can?t send some of our mud to Mike in San Diego. Henry > On Mar 3, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > Henry, > Let's follow further the opening comment of the song [this is an "approach > that has gone out of favour in the scientific world] Poetry as "metaphor" > but not "mere" metaphor as the handmaiden of the "realistic" and the > "conceptual" Rather "metaphor AS realistic" and also the reciprocal "the > realistic AS metaphorical" Chemicals as personifications > [anthro-morphisms] "attract" each other. > > I am "implicating" metaphor and valences AND rational conceptions as equal > "partners" in "approaching" the notion of life as "vitality" [another > notion that has gone out of fashion I am suggesting that this "theme" of > "life" as vital/dead seems to "play" out and also > "play" within internal/external "dramas". > Daniel Stern most recent book is on the notion of "vitality" Also > Heidegger's notion of "care and concern". > > Just saying - > > Larry > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 9:43 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Larry and Mike, >> I think you guys are on to something. Thank goodness for valence, the salt >> of the earth according to the McGarrigles: >> >> KATE & ANNA MCGARRIGLE >> "NaCl" >> Just a little atom of Chlorine, valence minus one >> Swimming through the sea, digging the scene, just having fun >> She's not worried about the shape or size of her outside shell >> It's fun to ionize >> Just a little atom of Cl with an unfilled shell >> But somewhere in that sea lurks handsome Sodium >> With enough electrons on his outside shell plus that extra one >> Somewhere in this deep blue sea there's a negative >> For my extra energy >> Yes, somewhere in this foam my positive will find a home >> Then unsuspecting Chlorine felt a magnetic pull >> She looked down and her outside shell was full >> Sodium cried, "What a gas, be my bride >> And I'll change your name from Chlorine to chloride!" >> Now the sea evaporates to make the clouds for the rain and snow >> Leaving her chemical compounds in the absence of H2O >> But the crystals that wash upon the shore are happy ones >> So, if you never thought before >> Think of the love that you eat when you salt you meat! >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI < >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI> >> >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 8:47 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>> Mike, >>> I will follow further in Simmels and Urs Furher's footsteps as this >>> theme also brings in Ernst Boesch's theory of "symbolic action" which was >>> developed as a notion that all phenomena [including action] have both >>> objective and symbolic "aspects". Boesch wrote: >>> >>> "This 'pervasiveness' of symbolism may be easy to grasp for a >> psychologist >>> with psychoanalytic experience or with strong artistic tastes; in my >> case, >>> however, although I believe myself to have a bit of both, this insight >> had >>> much more 'rational' roots. ... I trace its inception back to the 1963 >>> article 'Raum und Zeit als Valenzsysteme', in which I formulated, for the >>> first time, the close *interrelatedness of 'valence' *[LP- worth/value ] >>> and 'structure': the conceptual structuring of space depends, I said, >> upon >>> the location of valences [worth/values] - it was the *'wish to return' >> *which >>> led to the specification and stability of *places.*" [cited in "reasons >>> For a Symbolic Concept of Action" in Culture and Psychology 1997 >>> Volume 3(3): pages 423-431] >>> >>> I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all >>> following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" [multiple >> worths >>> and values] as symbolic actions. >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:23 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> Amazing "coincidence" Larry--- I just wrote to Urs who I have not >>>> corresponded with for years as a result of going through his book on >>>> cultivating minds. It has a chapter on behavior >>>> settings as media for promoting children's development that has me >>>> re-thinking a number of issues. Among other things, there is a very >>>> interesting discussion of Roger Barker's research program. Very worth >> while >>>> >>>> I could not open that file you sent, but I found the link to the journal >>>> article. Its here: >>>> >>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ja93v15n1.PDF >>>> >>>> There are a number of other interesting/relevant articles there. "The >> sound >>>> of the violin" is a favorite. >>>> >>>> Thanks for reminding us of Simmel. >>>> Today, March 1, was his birthday! >>>> Coincidence? >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Larry Purss >> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>>> I continued to explore Urs Furher's book that you mentioned on Simmel >>>> that >>>>> would be potentially beneficial to follow. In my explorations I came >>>> across >>>>> this article on the metaphor of "traces" or "footprints" in the XMCA >>>>> archives. It was written in 1993 and is an interesting perspective on >> the >>>>> metaphor of cultivation AS FOOTPRINTS. It is the third article in the >>>>> newsletter. >>>>> Urs is pointing to the reciprocal processes of "internalizing" and >>>>> "externalizing" the inner "affective sense" of "place" through >> attachment >>>>> to "home" and "vehicle" as concrete ways to form one's identity through >>>>> attachment/security needs and autonomy needs. >>>>> Larry >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >> >> From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Mar 3 13:58:42 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 06:58:42 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: <8FF4CB36-A23B-4301-903A-E59FAD369C6F@gmail.com> References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> <8FF4CB36-A23B-4301-903A-E59FAD369C6F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sometimes xmca reiterates. This isn't always a good thing; it's often because someone (usually me) wants to say the same thing a second time and just can't come up with a better way of saying it. But sometimes it's a good thing, either becuase the list as a whole has forgotten something it once knew or (better) there are new people who weren't here for the first part of the conversation, or (best of all) a thread has really turned into a kind of Moebius strip and is doubling back on itself, but in a way that brings something that was only implicit out and makes it explicit. All of which is an excuse for me to recycle the following posting, which I wrote many years ago when my friend the performance artist Shu Yang was last in Seoul. http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2010_11.dir/msg00242.html I think the point I'm trying to make here--but it is implicit and I will try to make it a little more explicit--is that we should have predicted all the sensationalist and EXHIBITIONISTIC excesses of today's performance art, simply from the fact that performance art is ART, and art in a bourgeois society will inevitably centre on the all-conquering, all-absorbing, all-obscuring individual. So today performance art sees the body as its main asset, but by doing this it has turned the body into its main obstacle. Seeing performance art as a projection of performance, the body denies performance art as an injection of art. If performance art wants to be art and not just performance, then it has to grasp the basic Vygotskyan principle that art is not the socialization of bodily feelings, but on the contrary, the individuation of a social feeling. That's what made Shu Yang's performance art, and the other performances mere performance. Reiterate xmca...sometimes. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 4 March 2015 at 02:51, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Larry, > I am mashing up serveral themes lately in the chat braid: > Style and authenticity: Are they compatible? I am thinking about the > discussion of performance art. Annalisa posted a radio podcast about > professional wrestling. Is it fake, and if so, so what? it?s just > entertainment. And makes lots of money. Your three definitions of FREEDOM > come to mind (boiled way down, leaving just the salt): 1) autonomy, 2) > expression of AUTHENTIC self, 3) collaborative/creaiive hoping. So, I see > PLAY saving the day in that third, hopeful space, that sweet spot. Where > people play at being both stylish and authentic. That would never go out of > style. That would be vital. And wouldn?t be dreadfully boring. > > I look back at the previous paragraph and thought I might try to unpack > it, but that would be even more arrogant than having written it in the > first place. So, let?s just leave it there. Play with it. Come on, peeps, > come out and play!! Snow has melted here in the Break Bad City, all mud > puddle luscious. We?re high desert, so this is a real treat. Sorry can?t > send some of our mud to Mike in San Diego. > Henry > > > > > On Mar 3, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > Henry, > > Let's follow further the opening comment of the song [this is an > "approach > > that has gone out of favour in the scientific world] Poetry as > "metaphor" > > but not "mere" metaphor as the handmaiden of the "realistic" and the > > "conceptual" Rather "metaphor AS realistic" and also the reciprocal "the > > realistic AS metaphorical" Chemicals as personifications > > [anthro-morphisms] "attract" each other. > > > > I am "implicating" metaphor and valences AND rational conceptions as > equal > > "partners" in "approaching" the notion of life as "vitality" [another > > notion that has gone out of fashion I am suggesting that this "theme" of > > "life" as vital/dead seems to "play" out and also > > "play" within internal/external "dramas". > > Daniel Stern most recent book is on the notion of "vitality" Also > > Heidegger's notion of "care and concern". > > > > Just saying - > > > > Larry > > > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 9:43 PM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > >> Larry and Mike, > >> I think you guys are on to something. Thank goodness for valence, the > salt > >> of the earth according to the McGarrigles: > >> > >> KATE & ANNA MCGARRIGLE > >> "NaCl" > >> Just a little atom of Chlorine, valence minus one > >> Swimming through the sea, digging the scene, just having fun > >> She's not worried about the shape or size of her outside shell > >> It's fun to ionize > >> Just a little atom of Cl with an unfilled shell > >> But somewhere in that sea lurks handsome Sodium > >> With enough electrons on his outside shell plus that extra one > >> Somewhere in this deep blue sea there's a negative > >> For my extra energy > >> Yes, somewhere in this foam my positive will find a home > >> Then unsuspecting Chlorine felt a magnetic pull > >> She looked down and her outside shell was full > >> Sodium cried, "What a gas, be my bride > >> And I'll change your name from Chlorine to chloride!" > >> Now the sea evaporates to make the clouds for the rain and snow > >> Leaving her chemical compounds in the absence of H2O > >> But the crystals that wash upon the shore are happy ones > >> So, if you never thought before > >> Think of the love that you eat when you salt you meat! > >> > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI < > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI> > >> > >> Henry > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 8:47 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > >>> > >>> Mike, > >>> I will follow further in Simmels and Urs Furher's footsteps as this > >>> theme also brings in Ernst Boesch's theory of "symbolic action" which > was > >>> developed as a notion that all phenomena [including action] have both > >>> objective and symbolic "aspects". Boesch wrote: > >>> > >>> "This 'pervasiveness' of symbolism may be easy to grasp for a > >> psychologist > >>> with psychoanalytic experience or with strong artistic tastes; in my > >> case, > >>> however, although I believe myself to have a bit of both, this insight > >> had > >>> much more 'rational' roots. ... I trace its inception back to the 1963 > >>> article 'Raum und Zeit als Valenzsysteme', in which I formulated, for > the > >>> first time, the close *interrelatedness of 'valence' *[LP- worth/value > ] > >>> and 'structure': the conceptual structuring of space depends, I said, > >> upon > >>> the location of valences [worth/values] - it was the *'wish to return' > >> *which > >>> led to the specification and stability of *places.*" [cited in > "reasons > >>> For a Symbolic Concept of Action" in Culture and Psychology 1997 > >>> Volume 3(3): pages 423-431] > >>> > >>> I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all > >>> following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" [multiple > >> worths > >>> and values] as symbolic actions. > >>> > >>> Larry > >>> > >>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:23 PM, mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>>> Amazing "coincidence" Larry--- I just wrote to Urs who I have not > >>>> corresponded with for years as a result of going through his book on > >>>> cultivating minds. It has a chapter on behavior > >>>> settings as media for promoting children's development that has me > >>>> re-thinking a number of issues. Among other things, there is a very > >>>> interesting discussion of Roger Barker's research program. Very worth > >> while > >>>> > >>>> I could not open that file you sent, but I found the link to the > journal > >>>> article. Its here: > >>>> > >>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ja93v15n1.PDF > >>>> > >>>> There are a number of other interesting/relevant articles there. "The > >> sound > >>>> of the violin" is a favorite. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks for reminding us of Simmel. > >>>> Today, March 1, was his birthday! > >>>> Coincidence? > >>>> mike > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Larry Purss > >> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Mike, > >>>>> I continued to explore Urs Furher's book that you mentioned on Simmel > >>>> that > >>>>> would be potentially beneficial to follow. In my explorations I came > >>>> across > >>>>> this article on the metaphor of "traces" or "footprints" in the XMCA > >>>>> archives. It was written in 1993 and is an interesting perspective on > >> the > >>>>> metaphor of cultivation AS FOOTPRINTS. It is the third article in > the > >>>>> newsletter. > >>>>> Urs is pointing to the reciprocal processes of "internalizing" and > >>>>> "externalizing" the inner "affective sense" of "place" through > >> attachment > >>>>> to "home" and "vehicle" as concrete ways to form one's identity > through > >>>>> attachment/security needs and autonomy needs. > >>>>> Larry > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >> object > >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>> > >> > >> > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Mar 3 15:32:29 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 16:32:29 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> <8FF4CB36-A23B-4301-903A-E59FAD369C6F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1514095B-BF29-4E25-9E9E-4692E7161963@gmail.com> David, Reiterate, if it resonates, I always say. I am really interested in what I take to be your subject line of your archived xmca post from November 2010: "Why is performance art?? The grammar in that question is longing for closure. My head swam. I was going to write a longer response, but I lost my way. What I ended up with most was how expansively fortunate that you went to see Shu Yang! I am most struck by how Shu Yang really was listening to the audience. Each and every one willing to engage with him. Shu Yang evoked a third space for, and used it for "an injection of art?. I take him at his word that he really would have stopped if no one had wanted to engage with him during his performance. The show must NOT go on just for performance?s sake. I am thinking about authenticity again. I love my one-track mind, but I?ll submit you to no more of it. Cheers, Henry I was going to write > On Mar 3, 2015, at 2:58 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Sometimes xmca reiterates. > > This isn't always a good thing; it's often because someone (usually me) > wants to say the same thing a second time and just can't come up with a > better way of saying it. But sometimes it's a good thing, either becuase > the list as a whole has forgotten something it once knew or (better) there > are new people who weren't here for the first part of the conversation, or > (best of all) a thread has really turned into a kind of Moebius strip and > is doubling back on itself, but in a way that brings something that was > only implicit out and makes it explicit. > > All of which is an excuse for me to recycle the following posting, which I > wrote many years ago when my friend the performance artist Shu Yang was > last in Seoul. > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2010_11.dir/msg00242.html > > I think the point I'm trying to make here--but it is implicit and I will > try to make it a little more explicit--is that we should have predicted all > the sensationalist and EXHIBITIONISTIC excesses of today's performance art, > simply from the fact that performance art is ART, and art in a bourgeois > society will inevitably centre on the all-conquering, all-absorbing, > all-obscuring individual. So today performance art sees the body as its > main asset, but by doing this it has turned the body into its main > obstacle. Seeing performance art as a projection of performance, the body > denies performance art as an injection of art. > > If performance art wants to be art and not just performance, then it has to > grasp the basic Vygotskyan principle that art is not the socialization of > bodily feelings, but on the contrary, the individuation of a social > feeling. That's what made Shu Yang's performance art, and the other > performances mere performance. > > Reiterate xmca...sometimes. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 4 March 2015 at 02:51, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Larry, >> I am mashing up serveral themes lately in the chat braid: >> Style and authenticity: Are they compatible? I am thinking about the >> discussion of performance art. Annalisa posted a radio podcast about >> professional wrestling. Is it fake, and if so, so what? it?s just >> entertainment. And makes lots of money. Your three definitions of FREEDOM >> come to mind (boiled way down, leaving just the salt): 1) autonomy, 2) >> expression of AUTHENTIC self, 3) collaborative/creaiive hoping. So, I see >> PLAY saving the day in that third, hopeful space, that sweet spot. Where >> people play at being both stylish and authentic. That would never go out of >> style. That would be vital. And wouldn?t be dreadfully boring. >> >> I look back at the previous paragraph and thought I might try to unpack >> it, but that would be even more arrogant than having written it in the >> first place. So, let?s just leave it there. Play with it. Come on, peeps, >> come out and play!! Snow has melted here in the Break Bad City, all mud >> puddle luscious. We?re high desert, so this is a real treat. Sorry can?t >> send some of our mud to Mike in San Diego. >> Henry >> >> >> >>> On Mar 3, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>> Henry, >>> Let's follow further the opening comment of the song [this is an >> "approach >>> that has gone out of favour in the scientific world] Poetry as >> "metaphor" >>> but not "mere" metaphor as the handmaiden of the "realistic" and the >>> "conceptual" Rather "metaphor AS realistic" and also the reciprocal "the >>> realistic AS metaphorical" Chemicals as personifications >>> [anthro-morphisms] "attract" each other. >>> >>> I am "implicating" metaphor and valences AND rational conceptions as >> equal >>> "partners" in "approaching" the notion of life as "vitality" [another >>> notion that has gone out of fashion I am suggesting that this "theme" of >>> "life" as vital/dead seems to "play" out and also >>> "play" within internal/external "dramas". >>> Daniel Stern most recent book is on the notion of "vitality" Also >>> Heidegger's notion of "care and concern". >>> >>> Just saying - >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 9:43 PM, HENRY SHONERD >> wrote: >>> >>>> Larry and Mike, >>>> I think you guys are on to something. Thank goodness for valence, the >> salt >>>> of the earth according to the McGarrigles: >>>> >>>> KATE & ANNA MCGARRIGLE >>>> "NaCl" >>>> Just a little atom of Chlorine, valence minus one >>>> Swimming through the sea, digging the scene, just having fun >>>> She's not worried about the shape or size of her outside shell >>>> It's fun to ionize >>>> Just a little atom of Cl with an unfilled shell >>>> But somewhere in that sea lurks handsome Sodium >>>> With enough electrons on his outside shell plus that extra one >>>> Somewhere in this deep blue sea there's a negative >>>> For my extra energy >>>> Yes, somewhere in this foam my positive will find a home >>>> Then unsuspecting Chlorine felt a magnetic pull >>>> She looked down and her outside shell was full >>>> Sodium cried, "What a gas, be my bride >>>> And I'll change your name from Chlorine to chloride!" >>>> Now the sea evaporates to make the clouds for the rain and snow >>>> Leaving her chemical compounds in the absence of H2O >>>> But the crystals that wash upon the shore are happy ones >>>> So, if you never thought before >>>> Think of the love that you eat when you salt you meat! >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI < >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI> >>>> >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 8:47 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>>> I will follow further in Simmels and Urs Furher's footsteps as this >>>>> theme also brings in Ernst Boesch's theory of "symbolic action" which >> was >>>>> developed as a notion that all phenomena [including action] have both >>>>> objective and symbolic "aspects". Boesch wrote: >>>>> >>>>> "This 'pervasiveness' of symbolism may be easy to grasp for a >>>> psychologist >>>>> with psychoanalytic experience or with strong artistic tastes; in my >>>> case, >>>>> however, although I believe myself to have a bit of both, this insight >>>> had >>>>> much more 'rational' roots. ... I trace its inception back to the 1963 >>>>> article 'Raum und Zeit als Valenzsysteme', in which I formulated, for >> the >>>>> first time, the close *interrelatedness of 'valence' *[LP- worth/value >> ] >>>>> and 'structure': the conceptual structuring of space depends, I said, >>>> upon >>>>> the location of valences [worth/values] - it was the *'wish to return' >>>> *which >>>>> led to the specification and stability of *places.*" [cited in >> "reasons >>>>> For a Symbolic Concept of Action" in Culture and Psychology 1997 >>>>> Volume 3(3): pages 423-431] >>>>> >>>>> I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all >>>>> following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" [multiple >>>> worths >>>>> and values] as symbolic actions. >>>>> >>>>> Larry >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:23 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Amazing "coincidence" Larry--- I just wrote to Urs who I have not >>>>>> corresponded with for years as a result of going through his book on >>>>>> cultivating minds. It has a chapter on behavior >>>>>> settings as media for promoting children's development that has me >>>>>> re-thinking a number of issues. Among other things, there is a very >>>>>> interesting discussion of Roger Barker's research program. Very worth >>>> while >>>>>> >>>>>> I could not open that file you sent, but I found the link to the >> journal >>>>>> article. Its here: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ja93v15n1.PDF >>>>>> >>>>>> There are a number of other interesting/relevant articles there. "The >>>> sound >>>>>> of the violin" is a favorite. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for reminding us of Simmel. >>>>>> Today, March 1, was his birthday! >>>>>> Coincidence? >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Larry Purss >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike, >>>>>>> I continued to explore Urs Furher's book that you mentioned on Simmel >>>>>> that >>>>>>> would be potentially beneficial to follow. In my explorations I came >>>>>> across >>>>>>> this article on the metaphor of "traces" or "footprints" in the XMCA >>>>>>> archives. It was written in 1993 and is an interesting perspective on >>>> the >>>>>>> metaphor of cultivation AS FOOTPRINTS. It is the third article in >> the >>>>>>> newsletter. >>>>>>> Urs is pointing to the reciprocal processes of "internalizing" and >>>>>>> "externalizing" the inner "affective sense" of "place" through >>>> attachment >>>>>>> to "home" and "vehicle" as concrete ways to form one's identity >> through >>>>>>> attachment/security needs and autonomy needs. >>>>>>> Larry >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>> object >>>>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Mar 3 15:36:35 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 23:36:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> <8FF4CB36-A23B-4301-903A-E59FAD369C6F@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <1425425795854.91811@unm.edu> David, You are right. There will be on a listserv reiterations, which is always a good thing. Not sometimes. And disagreements can also reiterate, which seems to be happening here. Is that a good thing? Not sure. I stand by my original statement which was something like: I am not able to group all performance artists into one group and reduce them as"doing" all the same things, and then call it stupid. I cannot do that. I can't do that with painters, with musicians, with photographers, with filmmakers, with sculptors, with printmakers, with dancers. You can, and you are, and you are free to do that. I'd like to say that calling something NOT ART, or someone NOT AN ARTIST is a predictable process of dismissing people as unqualified to do art. Just like dismissing marginalized people has not having a voice in political process. To comment about the argument about "What is Quality in Art?" is also a Very Old Theme in Art History, and Clement Greenberg is your guy for that. If you want to get into the conversations that have already been discussed on this you could perhaps visit Linda Nochlin's article "Why have there been no great women artists?" http://f.hypotheses.org/wp-content/blogs.dir/512/files/2012/01/whynogreatwomenartists_4.pdf I might choose to replace "women artists" with any other kind of artist who doesn't adhere to what is a "viable" artist in the hegemony of Western Art history and the essay would probably work, because it too is dealing with "What is the Quality of Art?" but from the standpoint of asking "WHO IS IT who says what is quality and what is NOT quality?". This essay was published in 1971, by the way. In any case, I actually see a value to what performance artists do. I will not change my position, no matter how much you try to discredit the art AND it's ok that you don't like it. That doesn't bother me at all. Performance artists are working in a space of non-commodification. I like that. They are using their bodies in their artwork, but they can elect not to do that. It's not a requirement. But I find that in the performance artists that do use their bodies there is a great deal of courage required and personal risk. It's not just about sensationalism, there is an activist mentality there. I like that too. For example, Abbie Hoffman throwing real and fake money onto the floor of the NYSE trading floor, was a political act, but it could be easily be performance art. Much of what he did was not unlike performance art. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbie_Hoffman Much of activism _performed_ in a creative way IS performance art. Which means NOT ONLY artists in your so-called bourgeois venues can do it. Perhaps THE POINT that artists who literally masturbate in their performances IS to CRITICALLY COMMENT upon what you actually don't like about narcissistic performance. But see, one would have to read up on Art History to know this. Everything requires a context. Kind regards, Annalisa From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Mar 3 16:26:15 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 17:26:15 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: <1425425795854.91811@unm.edu> References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> <8FF4CB36-A23B-4301-903A-E59FAD369C6F@gmail.com> <, > <1425425795854.91811@unm.edu> Message-ID: Hi Annalisa, I think that Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman are apt narratives to evoke that counterculture of a certain time (late 60s especially) in the U.S. Regarding their bodies, their physical bodies, both died at 52 but: Jerry was run over by a car. Abbie took his own life with phenobarbital and alcohol. I am reminded of what the great Joe Walsh of the Eagles said: ?When you?re living it, life is a mess, but when you look back, it?s a finely crafted nove.". For some. For Jerry, but not for Abbie. I was a grad student at UC Berkeley in the late 60s. For me, Jerry and Abbie were icons. As was Che, two years dead when I cut sugar cane with the Brigada Venceremos in Cuba. Cutting sugar cane in Cuba was a performance, well meaning, but with out too much ?injection of art?. I will get a bit confessional here: I could have gone either way, Jerry?s way or Abbie?s. I don?t know what this has to do with performance art, but i just get this warm feeling how lucky I am to be part of this chat. Authenticity with style! I?m nobody. How about you? Henry > On Mar 3, 2015, at 4:36 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > David, > > You are right. There will be on a listserv reiterations, which is always a good thing. Not sometimes. > > And disagreements can also reiterate, which seems to be happening here. Is that a good thing? Not sure. > > I stand by my original statement which was something like: I am not able to group all performance artists into one group and reduce them as"doing" all the same things, and then call it stupid. > > I cannot do that. I can't do that with painters, with musicians, with photographers, with filmmakers, with sculptors, with printmakers, with dancers. > > You can, and you are, and you are free to do that. > > I'd like to say that calling something NOT ART, or someone NOT AN ARTIST is a predictable process of dismissing people as unqualified to do art. Just like dismissing marginalized people has not having a voice in political process. > > To comment about the argument about "What is Quality in Art?" is also a Very Old Theme in Art History, and Clement Greenberg is your guy for that. If you want to get into the conversations that have already been discussed on this you could perhaps visit Linda Nochlin's article "Why have there been no great women artists?" > http://f.hypotheses.org/wp-content/blogs.dir/512/files/2012/01/whynogreatwomenartists_4.pdf > > I might choose to replace "women artists" with any other kind of artist who doesn't adhere to what is a "viable" artist in the hegemony of Western Art history and the essay would probably work, because it too is dealing with "What is the Quality of Art?" but from the standpoint of asking "WHO IS IT who says what is quality and what is NOT quality?". This essay was published in 1971, by the way. > > In any case, I actually see a value to what performance artists do. I will not change my position, no matter how much you try to discredit the art AND it's ok that you don't like it. That doesn't bother me at all. > > Performance artists are working in a space of non-commodification. I like that. They are using their bodies in their artwork, but they can elect not to do that. It's not a requirement. But I find that in the performance artists that do use their bodies there is a great deal of courage required and personal risk. It's not just about sensationalism, there is an activist mentality there. I like that too. > > For example, Abbie Hoffman throwing real and fake money onto the floor of the NYSE trading floor, was a political act, but it could be easily be performance art. Much of what he did was not unlike performance art. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbie_Hoffman > > Much of activism _performed_ in a creative way IS performance art. Which means NOT ONLY artists in your so-called bourgeois venues can do it. Perhaps THE POINT that artists who literally masturbate in their performances IS to CRITICALLY COMMENT upon what you actually don't like about narcissistic performance. > > But see, one would have to read up on Art History to know this. > > Everything requires a context. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Mar 3 17:12:52 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 01:12:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> <8FF4CB36-A23B-4301-903A-E59FAD369C6F@gmail.com> <, > <1425425795854.91811@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1425431574507.86013@unm.edu> Hi Henry, Sometimes the tool doesn't do justice to the message, and listservs (as tools for communication) are not excluded from that. And so I was a little lost in what your confessional is and unsure how that connects to What is Art, which was the topic I was discussing (and how that pertains to Performance Art). It is nice that you feel a personal attachment to Rubin and Hoffman and you loved them as your icons. There will be a time when no one will be alive to remember them and they will only be known as a wikipedia page. I'm not sure that there are many people like Hoffman in society at the moment who are challenging our notions of what is acceptable for the human race and the planet. And if they are, there is usually a process of monetizing it in some way. The only person I can think of right now is Medea Benjamin from Code Pink who might be an equivalent. Interestingly (speaking of wikipedia pages) it says about them: "Code Pink often uses intrusive, political street theater to publicize its positions. Favored methods include the use of puppets, effigies, over-sized heads, and fake blood, according to John J. Tierney in a publication of the conservative think tank, Capital Research Center." I find it interesting that a conservative think tank describes their "favored methods." That is a very strange phrase. The way I know them and has been most effective, which is how I know about them, is that they attend a hearing and they stand up and yell out their objections and their love for their country as they are being escorted out of the room. I never saw fake blood in these televised objections, but figure that is likely one element of many in their art palette in their "stage theater". When every country on the planet allows women in pink t-shirts to stand up and yell without arresting and/or maiming and/or killing them, it will be a great day indeed. I think I can say Hoffman's life could fill the Eagles song lyric, because time has a way of bringing out what is tragic and beautiful in the same place. Despair is a legitimate response to what was going on back then. Seems to me that you were threading the needle, and you have lived to tell it. I certainly hope you aren't taking the stance of General MacArthur about old soldiers fading away... Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Mar 3 18:09:24 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 18:09:24 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: <1425431574507.86013@unm.edu> References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> <8FF4CB36-A23B-4301-903A-E59FAD369C6F@gmail.com> <1425425795854.91811@unm.edu> <1425431574507.86013@unm.edu> Message-ID: Henry, I am interested in your question of the relation of "style" and "authenticity" and how they relate to "living in truth" [whatever "truth" means??] I have been linking Morten Nissen's work to Ernst Bloch and that led to Simmel and then through Mike's commentary to Urs Furher and that lead on to Ernst Boesch. I brought in the theme of "salon culture" and the labelling of Simmel as a "flaneur" who wrote "impressions" of the metropolis but who was often criticized for not being "systematic" The question of Simmel being focused on the "style" of the "essay" and therefore labelled not "rigorous" or "scientific" in his approach to sociology [and philosophy]. Henry, you "locating" your impressionistic years as Berkley in the mid 1960's is expressing a certain "style" [which I also lived through] and influences how we "understand" [and could be critiqued in a similar way to the style of "salon culture". Now the question of "authenticity" [living in truth] leads to the question "who gets to judge the authenticity of a person "living in truth" Is it tied to living "free"?? [and this concept opens the meaning of freedom as "autonomy/negative freedom" OR freedom as "expression/positive freedom" OR "third spaces/situated freedom" . Returning to Simmel. Is his focussing on "reciprocal interaction" too vague and unsystematic [not rigorous] or is this "style" an authentic way to approach human nature? I will offer a comment from David Frisby in his book "Georg Simmel": ".... that for a founding father Simmel seems curiously remote from organized sociology and seems to be a neglected figure. This impression, it is argued, may stem from a discrepancy between Simmel's *style* of thought and the prevailing sociological 'idiom' which has come to be dominated by detailed and refined empirical research and specialized modes of conceptualization that can only be used by professionals." [page 15] Frisby also states: "Simmel goes so far as to state in his "Sociology" that although the work is replete with actual empirical and historical example that illustrate his propositions, he could just as well used *fictitious ones*. In this respect , Simmel is the first sociologist to apply the philosophy of '*As-It' *to the sociological domain." [page 15] Henry, the question of the relation of "style" and "authenticity" is that yes there is a reciprocal relation, but this relation is always localized and to be "worked out". At least that is the "footsteps" I am "tracing" in this commentary. Larry On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Henry, > > Sometimes the tool doesn't do justice to the message, and listservs (as > tools for communication) are not excluded from that. > > And so I was a little lost in what your confessional is and unsure how > that connects to What is Art, which was the topic I was discussing (and how > that pertains to Performance Art). > > It is nice that you feel a personal attachment to Rubin and Hoffman and > you loved them as your icons. There will be a time when no one will be > alive to remember them and they will only be known as a wikipedia page. > > I'm not sure that there are many people like Hoffman in society at the > moment who are challenging our notions of what is acceptable for the human > race and the planet. And if they are, there is usually a process of > monetizing it in some way. > > The only person I can think of right now is Medea Benjamin from Code Pink > who might be an equivalent. Interestingly (speaking of wikipedia pages) it > says about them: > > "Code Pink often uses intrusive, political street theater to publicize its > positions. Favored methods include the use of puppets, effigies, over-sized > heads, and fake blood, according to John J. Tierney in a publication of the > conservative think tank, Capital Research Center." > > I find it interesting that a conservative think tank describes their > "favored methods." That is a very strange phrase. > > The way I know them and has been most effective, which is how I know about > them, is that they attend a hearing and they stand up and yell out their > objections and their love for their country as they are being escorted out > of the room. I never saw fake blood in these televised objections, but > figure that is likely one element of many in their art palette in their > "stage theater". > > When every country on the planet allows women in pink t-shirts to stand up > and yell without arresting and/or maiming and/or killing them, it will be a > great day indeed. > > I think I can say Hoffman's life could fill the Eagles song lyric, because > time has a way of bringing out what is tragic and beautiful in the same > place. Despair is a legitimate response to what was going on back then. > Seems to me that you were threading the needle, and you have lived to tell > it. > > I certainly hope you aren't taking the stance of General MacArthur about > old soldiers fading away... > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > From vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp Tue Mar 3 19:00:57 2015 From: vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp (valerie A. Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 12:00:57 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> <8FF4CB36-A23B-4301-903A-E59FAD369C6F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002701d05627$70faeaf0$52f0c0d0$@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> David, Thank you for the glimpse of the Moebius strip of XMCA history. I?m one of the participant readers who randomly drops in with a comment. XMCA continues to be vitally interesting to a list of great variety. Paradox is reiterative and fractal, Embedded in the extreme unique present Anywhere and everywhere. On paradox, then and now: *Zhuangzi* (3rd c. BC) Once upon a time, I, Chuang Chou, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, a veritable butterfly, enjoying itself to the full of its bent, and not knowing it was Chuang Chou. Suddenly I awoke, and came to myself, the veritable Chuang Chou. Now I do not know whether it was then I dreamt I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly dreaming I am a man. Between me and the butterfly there must be a difference. This is an instance of transformation. In the 2010 film *Inception*: The labyrinth of many layers took me many viewings, putting up with loud action sequences and incendiary CG scenes, to excavate the core: Cobb: You're waiting for a train. A train that'll take you far away. You know where you hope this train will take you. But you can't know for sure. Yet it doesn't matter. Now, tell me why? I would not have gotten "the message" had I not watched the film repeatedly. Consciousness, reality and virtual reality, represents itself in paradoxical images. Recall also, the play by Calderon *Life is a Dream* (1635) Vandy -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 6:59 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds Sometimes xmca reiterates. This isn't always a good thing; it's often because someone (usually me) wants to say the same thing a second time and just can't come up with a better way of saying it. But sometimes it's a good thing, either becuase the list as a whole has forgotten something it once knew or (better) there are new people who weren't here for the first part of the conversation, or (best of all) a thread has really turned into a kind of Moebius strip and is doubling back on itself, but in a way that brings something that was only implicit out and makes it explicit. All of which is an excuse for me to recycle the following posting, which I wrote many years ago when my friend the performance artist Shu Yang was last in Seoul. http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2010_11.dir/msg00242.html I think the point I'm trying to make here--but it is implicit and I will try to make it a little more explicit--is that we should have predicted all the sensationalist and EXHIBITIONISTIC excesses of today's performance art, simply from the fact that performance art is ART, and art in a bourgeois society will inevitably centre on the all-conquering, all-absorbing, all-obscuring individual. So today performance art sees the body as its main asset, but by doing this it has turned the body into its main obstacle. Seeing performance art as a projection of performance, the body denies performance art as an injection of art. If performance art wants to be art and not just performance, then it has to grasp the basic Vygotskyan principle that art is not the socialization of bodily feelings, but on the contrary, the individuation of a social feeling. That's what made Shu Yang's performance art, and the other performances mere performance. Reiterate xmca...sometimes. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 4 March 2015 at 02:51, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Larry, > I am mashing up serveral themes lately in the chat braid: > Style and authenticity: Are they compatible? I am thinking about the > discussion of performance art. Annalisa posted a radio podcast about > professional wrestling. Is it fake, and if so, so what? it?s just > entertainment. And makes lots of money. Your three definitions of > FREEDOM come to mind (boiled way down, leaving just the salt): 1) > autonomy, 2) expression of AUTHENTIC self, 3) collaborative/creaiive > hoping. So, I see PLAY saving the day in that third, hopeful space, > that sweet spot. Where people play at being both stylish and > authentic. That would never go out of style. That would be vital. And wouldn?t be dreadfully boring. > > I look back at the previous paragraph and thought I might try to > unpack it, but that would be even more arrogant than having written it > in the first place. So, let?s just leave it there. Play with it. Come > on, peeps, come out and play!! Snow has melted here in the Break Bad > City, all mud puddle luscious. We?re high desert, so this is a real > treat. Sorry can?t send some of our mud to Mike in San Diego. > Henry > > > > > On Mar 3, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > Henry, > > Let's follow further the opening comment of the song [this is an > "approach > > that has gone out of favour in the scientific world] Poetry as > "metaphor" > > but not "mere" metaphor as the handmaiden of the "realistic" and the > > "conceptual" Rather "metaphor AS realistic" and also the reciprocal > > "the realistic AS metaphorical" Chemicals as personifications > > [anthro-morphisms] "attract" each other. > > > > I am "implicating" metaphor and valences AND rational conceptions as > equal > > "partners" in "approaching" the notion of life as "vitality" > > [another notion that has gone out of fashion I am suggesting that > > this "theme" of "life" as vital/dead seems to "play" out and also > > "play" within internal/external "dramas". > > Daniel Stern most recent book is on the notion of "vitality" Also > > Heidegger's notion of "care and concern". > > > > Just saying - > > > > Larry > > > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 9:43 PM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > >> Larry and Mike, > >> I think you guys are on to something. Thank goodness for valence, > >> the > salt > >> of the earth according to the McGarrigles: > >> > >> KATE & ANNA MCGARRIGLE > >> "NaCl" > >> Just a little atom of Chlorine, valence minus one Swimming through > >> the sea, digging the scene, just having fun She's not worried about > >> the shape or size of her outside shell It's fun to ionize Just a > >> little atom of Cl with an unfilled shell But somewhere in that sea > >> lurks handsome Sodium With enough electrons on his outside shell > >> plus that extra one Somewhere in this deep blue sea there's a > >> negative For my extra energy Yes, somewhere in this foam my > >> positive will find a home Then unsuspecting Chlorine felt a > >> magnetic pull She looked down and her outside shell was full Sodium > >> cried, "What a gas, be my bride And I'll change your name from > >> Chlorine to chloride!" > >> Now the sea evaporates to make the clouds for the rain and snow > >> Leaving her chemical compounds in the absence of H2O But the > >> crystals that wash upon the shore are happy ones So, if you never > >> thought before Think of the love that you eat when you salt you > >> meat! > >> > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI < > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI> > >> > >> Henry > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 8:47 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > >>> > >>> Mike, > >>> I will follow further in Simmels and Urs Furher's footsteps as > >>> this theme also brings in Ernst Boesch's theory of "symbolic > >>> action" which > was > >>> developed as a notion that all phenomena [including action] have > >>> both objective and symbolic "aspects". Boesch wrote: > >>> > >>> "This 'pervasiveness' of symbolism may be easy to grasp for a > >> psychologist > >>> with psychoanalytic experience or with strong artistic tastes; in > >>> my > >> case, > >>> however, although I believe myself to have a bit of both, this > >>> insight > >> had > >>> much more 'rational' roots. ... I trace its inception back to the > >>> 1963 article 'Raum und Zeit als Valenzsysteme', in which I > >>> formulated, for > the > >>> first time, the close *interrelatedness of 'valence' *[LP- > >>> worth/value > ] > >>> and 'structure': the conceptual structuring of space depends, I > >>> said, > >> upon > >>> the location of valences [worth/values] - it was the *'wish to return' > >> *which > >>> led to the specification and stability of *places.*" [cited in > "reasons > >>> For a Symbolic Concept of Action" in Culture and Psychology 1997 > >>> Volume 3(3): pages 423-431] > >>> > >>> I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all > >>> following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" > >>> [multiple > >> worths > >>> and values] as symbolic actions. > >>> > >>> Larry > >>> > >>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:23 PM, mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>>> Amazing "coincidence" Larry--- I just wrote to Urs who I have not > >>>> corresponded with for years as a result of going through his book > >>>> on cultivating minds. It has a chapter on behavior settings as > >>>> media for promoting children's development that has me > >>>> re-thinking a number of issues. Among other things, there is a > >>>> very interesting discussion of Roger Barker's research program. > >>>> Very worth > >> while > >>>> > >>>> I could not open that file you sent, but I found the link to the > journal > >>>> article. Its here: > >>>> > >>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ja93v15n1.PDF > >>>> > >>>> There are a number of other interesting/relevant articles there. > >>>> "The > >> sound > >>>> of the violin" is a favorite. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks for reminding us of Simmel. > >>>> Today, March 1, was his birthday! > >>>> Coincidence? > >>>> mike > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Larry Purss > >>>> > >> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Mike, > >>>>> I continued to explore Urs Furher's book that you mentioned on > >>>>> Simmel > >>>> that > >>>>> would be potentially beneficial to follow. In my explorations I > >>>>> came > >>>> across > >>>>> this article on the metaphor of "traces" or "footprints" in the > >>>>> XMCA archives. It was written in 1993 and is an interesting > >>>>> perspective on > >> the > >>>>> metaphor of cultivation AS FOOTPRINTS. It is the third article > >>>>> in > the > >>>>> newsletter. > >>>>> Urs is pointing to the reciprocal processes of "internalizing" > >>>>> and "externalizing" the inner "affective sense" of "place" > >>>>> through > >> attachment > >>>>> to "home" and "vehicle" as concrete ways to form one's identity > through > >>>>> attachment/security needs and autonomy needs. > >>>>> Larry > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with > >>>> an > >> object > >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>> > >> > >> > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Mar 3 19:50:26 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 19:50:26 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [Isls-members] Announcing March 12 Webinar on Design-Based Implementation Research in Early Mathematics Learning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This webinar ought to be of interest to list members. Its topic overlaps a symposium at the learning sciences meeting last year, articles by Penuel, Engestrom and colleagues in MCA, and an upcoming issue of the J. of Learning Sciences within the general domain of the Webinar as I understand it. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: William Penuel Date: Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 3:14 PM Subject: [Isls-members] Announcing March 12 Webinar on Design-Based Implementation Research in Early Mathematics Learning To: "Isls-members@cc.gatech.edu" *Webinar: DBIR in Early Mathematics Learning* Please join *Research+Practice Collaboratory* Co-Principal Investigators Pam Buffington (EDC) and Bill Penuel (University of Colorado) for a presentation about a research approach among practitioners and researchers in which the (1) work is organized to address problems of practice from multiple stakeholders? perspectives, and (2) teams commit to collaborative design to investigate and solve those problems of practice. In this webinar this approach, Design-Based Implementation Research (DBIR), will be described in the context of an improvement effort in which all K-3 teachers and students are provided iPads to support learning and teaching. Discover how a broad set of education stakeholders, school and classroom leaders, mathematics education faculty and non-profit partners collaboratively investigate critical strategies and approaches designed to improve math learning and teaching in these classrooms. *When:* Thursday, March 12, 2015. 3:00?4:30 PM. Eastern Standard Time *Where: *Adobe Connect *To join the webinar: *Here is the link to the Adobe Connect Room: Please enter as Guest ? enter your full name http://edc.adobeconnect.com/rpcollab31215/. No sign ups necessary. *Research + Practice Collaboratory *engages researchers and practitioners around the country in an effort to address the long-standing gap between educational research and practice in STEM education. We are online at: http://researchandpractice.org. Funding for the Collaboratory from the National Science Foundation (DRL- 1238253). Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations expressed in this webinar are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of the National Science Foundation. ------------------------------------------------------- Bill Penuel Professor of Educational Psychology and Learning Sciences School of Education UCB 249 Boulder CO 80305 Email: william.penuel@colorado.edu Web: http://learndbir.org Twitter: @bpenuel, @LearnDBIR ------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Isls-members mailing list Isls-members@cc.gatech.edu https://mailman.cc.gatech.edu/mailman/listinfo/isls-members -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Mar 3 19:58:16 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 20:58:16 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: <1425431574507.86013@unm.edu> References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> <8FF4CB36-A23B-4301-903A-E59FAD369C6F@gmail.com> <, > <1425425795854.91811@unm.edu> <, > <1425431574507.86013@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, I AM confused about most things, and think that my email to you was on the ungrounded side. Most of all, comparing myself with Abbie, or Jerry is silly. I think I was maybe hinting at that. Embarassing; I am squirming a bit thinking about that. They took big risks tugging on Judge Hoffman?s beard at the trial of the Chicago 8. And they kept at it. And I also implied very strongly that it?s better to be hit by a car than commit suicide. I certainly cannot say that despair is not a legitimate response to what is going on whenever. That scares the hell out of me, but then so does the idea of doing what Jerry or Rubin did or Medea does. It?s hard to save the world when you?re caught between despair and stage fright. I agree with you that it?s good that we both threaded the needle until now. Again, I?m not sure what this has to do with performance art. And whose mind got cultivated. I?m drifing again. Henry > On Mar 3, 2015, at 6:12 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Henry, > > Sometimes the tool doesn't do justice to the message, and listservs (as tools for communication) are not excluded from that. > > And so I was a little lost in what your confessional is and unsure how that connects to What is Art, which was the topic I was discussing (and how that pertains to Performance Art). > > It is nice that you feel a personal attachment to Rubin and Hoffman and you loved them as your icons. There will be a time when no one will be alive to remember them and they will only be known as a wikipedia page. > > I'm not sure that there are many people like Hoffman in society at the moment who are challenging our notions of what is acceptable for the human race and the planet. And if they are, there is usually a process of monetizing it in some way. > > The only person I can think of right now is Medea Benjamin from Code Pink who might be an equivalent. Interestingly (speaking of wikipedia pages) it says about them: > > "Code Pink often uses intrusive, political street theater to publicize its positions. Favored methods include the use of puppets, effigies, over-sized heads, and fake blood, according to John J. Tierney in a publication of the conservative think tank, Capital Research Center." > > I find it interesting that a conservative think tank describes their "favored methods." That is a very strange phrase. > > The way I know them and has been most effective, which is how I know about them, is that they attend a hearing and they stand up and yell out their objections and their love for their country as they are being escorted out of the room. I never saw fake blood in these televised objections, but figure that is likely one element of many in their art palette in their "stage theater". > > When every country on the planet allows women in pink t-shirts to stand up and yell without arresting and/or maiming and/or killing them, it will be a great day indeed. > > I think I can say Hoffman's life could fill the Eagles song lyric, because time has a way of bringing out what is tragic and beautiful in the same place. Despair is a legitimate response to what was going on back then. Seems to me that you were threading the needle, and you have lived to tell it. > > I certainly hope you aren't taking the stance of General MacArthur about old soldiers fading away... > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Mar 3 20:15:16 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 04:15:16 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> <8FF4CB36-A23B-4301-903A-E59FAD369C6F@gmail.com> <1425425795854.91811@unm.edu> <1425431574507.86013@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1425442518281.99638@unm.edu> Hi Larry, Henry and esteemed others, I very much responded to what you wrote here: [Now the question of "authenticity" [living in truth] leads to the question "who gets to judge the authenticity of a person "living in truth" Is it tied to living "free"?? [and this concept opens the meaning of freedom as "autonomy/negative freedom" OR freedom as "expression/positive freedom" OR "third spaces/situated freedom" .] I value the discourse around what you point out above, Larry, and the question itself allows for a plural contribution, because I don't think there is a single answer. What I'm interested in is not finding that single answer, but hearing how Many Others answer the question (for themselves). For example, speaking to style and authenticity combined, I would say Valerie's response to this thread to be equal to mine which is equal to yours which is equal to Henry's which is equal to David's, etc. And yet they are all different, all authentic, each with a different style, and all true. (I can't imagine why anyone would (intentionally) post something that was not true, because that doesn't make any sense to me. I am also taking as a given that everyone on the list is free to express themselves ?even if that expression is silence? perhaps that is my prefigurative stance and where I'm operating from that we are all free.) I'm not sure there needs to be a job description for an authenticity judge necessarily, as people seem to select themselves to do that job and usually break up the party, if only because they break the spell. In any case, given all that, should we stop discussing because we can't come to a single, qualified answer? I hope not. It would be like going to an art gallery and seeing multiple versions of the same picture on the wall, even framed the exact same way. Kind regards, Annalisa From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Mar 3 20:18:53 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 21:18:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: <002701d05627$70faeaf0$52f0c0d0$@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> <8FF4CB36-A23B-4301-903A-E59FAD369C6F@gmail.com> <002701d05627$70faeaf0$52f0c0d0$@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: <068E20FC-1B84-4940-AB39-E12E967DD744@gmail.com> "?Qu? es la vida ? Un frenes?. ?Qu? es la vida? Una ilusi?n, una sombra, una ficci?n; y el mayor bien es peque?o; que toda la vida es sue?o , y los sue?os, sue?os son." > On Mar 3, 2015, at 8:00 PM, valerie A. Wilkinson wrote: > > David, > Thank you for the glimpse of the Moebius strip of XMCA history. > I?m one of the participant readers who randomly drops in with a comment. > XMCA continues to be vitally interesting to a list of great variety. > Paradox is reiterative and fractal, > Embedded in the extreme unique present > Anywhere and everywhere. > On paradox, then and now: > *Zhuangzi* (3rd c. BC) > Once upon a time, I, Chuang Chou, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, a veritable butterfly, enjoying itself to the full of its bent, and not knowing it was Chuang Chou. Suddenly I awoke, and came to myself, the veritable Chuang Chou. Now I do not know whether it was then I dreamt I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly dreaming I am a man. Between me and the butterfly there must be a difference. This is an instance of transformation. > > In the 2010 film *Inception*: > The labyrinth of many layers took me many viewings, putting up with loud action sequences and incendiary CG scenes, to excavate the core: > Cobb: You're waiting for a train. A train that'll take you far away. You know where you hope this train will take you. But you can't know for sure. Yet it doesn't matter. Now, tell me why? > I would not have gotten "the message" had I not watched the film repeatedly. > > Consciousness, reality and virtual reality, represents itself in paradoxical images. > Recall also, the play by Calderon *Life is a Dream* (1635) > Vandy > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg > Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 6:59 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds > > Sometimes xmca reiterates. > > This isn't always a good thing; it's often because someone (usually me) wants to say the same thing a second time and just can't come up with a better way of saying it. But sometimes it's a good thing, either becuase the list as a whole has forgotten something it once knew or (better) there are new people who weren't here for the first part of the conversation, or (best of all) a thread has really turned into a kind of Moebius strip and is doubling back on itself, but in a way that brings something that was only implicit out and makes it explicit. > > All of which is an excuse for me to recycle the following posting, which I wrote many years ago when my friend the performance artist Shu Yang was last in Seoul. > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2010_11.dir/msg00242.html > > I think the point I'm trying to make here--but it is implicit and I will try to make it a little more explicit--is that we should have predicted all the sensationalist and EXHIBITIONISTIC excesses of today's performance art, simply from the fact that performance art is ART, and art in a bourgeois society will inevitably centre on the all-conquering, all-absorbing, all-obscuring individual. So today performance art sees the body as its main asset, but by doing this it has turned the body into its main obstacle. Seeing performance art as a projection of performance, the body denies performance art as an injection of art. > > If performance art wants to be art and not just performance, then it has to grasp the basic Vygotskyan principle that art is not the socialization of bodily feelings, but on the contrary, the individuation of a social feeling. That's what made Shu Yang's performance art, and the other performances mere performance. > > Reiterate xmca...sometimes. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 4 March 2015 at 02:51, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Larry, >> I am mashing up serveral themes lately in the chat braid: >> Style and authenticity: Are they compatible? I am thinking about the >> discussion of performance art. Annalisa posted a radio podcast about >> professional wrestling. Is it fake, and if so, so what? it?s just >> entertainment. And makes lots of money. Your three definitions of >> FREEDOM come to mind (boiled way down, leaving just the salt): 1) >> autonomy, 2) expression of AUTHENTIC self, 3) collaborative/creaiive >> hoping. So, I see PLAY saving the day in that third, hopeful space, >> that sweet spot. Where people play at being both stylish and >> authentic. That would never go out of style. That would be vital. And wouldn?t be dreadfully boring. >> >> I look back at the previous paragraph and thought I might try to >> unpack it, but that would be even more arrogant than having written it >> in the first place. So, let?s just leave it there. Play with it. Come >> on, peeps, come out and play!! Snow has melted here in the Break Bad >> City, all mud puddle luscious. We?re high desert, so this is a real >> treat. Sorry can?t send some of our mud to Mike in San Diego. >> Henry >> >> >> >>> On Mar 3, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>> Henry, >>> Let's follow further the opening comment of the song [this is an >> "approach >>> that has gone out of favour in the scientific world] Poetry as >> "metaphor" >>> but not "mere" metaphor as the handmaiden of the "realistic" and the >>> "conceptual" Rather "metaphor AS realistic" and also the reciprocal >>> "the realistic AS metaphorical" Chemicals as personifications >>> [anthro-morphisms] "attract" each other. >>> >>> I am "implicating" metaphor and valences AND rational conceptions as >> equal >>> "partners" in "approaching" the notion of life as "vitality" >>> [another notion that has gone out of fashion I am suggesting that >>> this "theme" of "life" as vital/dead seems to "play" out and also >>> "play" within internal/external "dramas". >>> Daniel Stern most recent book is on the notion of "vitality" Also >>> Heidegger's notion of "care and concern". >>> >>> Just saying - >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 9:43 PM, HENRY SHONERD >> wrote: >>> >>>> Larry and Mike, >>>> I think you guys are on to something. Thank goodness for valence, >>>> the >> salt >>>> of the earth according to the McGarrigles: >>>> >>>> KATE & ANNA MCGARRIGLE >>>> "NaCl" >>>> Just a little atom of Chlorine, valence minus one Swimming through >>>> the sea, digging the scene, just having fun She's not worried about >>>> the shape or size of her outside shell It's fun to ionize Just a >>>> little atom of Cl with an unfilled shell But somewhere in that sea >>>> lurks handsome Sodium With enough electrons on his outside shell >>>> plus that extra one Somewhere in this deep blue sea there's a >>>> negative For my extra energy Yes, somewhere in this foam my >>>> positive will find a home Then unsuspecting Chlorine felt a >>>> magnetic pull She looked down and her outside shell was full Sodium >>>> cried, "What a gas, be my bride And I'll change your name from >>>> Chlorine to chloride!" >>>> Now the sea evaporates to make the clouds for the rain and snow >>>> Leaving her chemical compounds in the absence of H2O But the >>>> crystals that wash upon the shore are happy ones So, if you never >>>> thought before Think of the love that you eat when you salt you >>>> meat! >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI < >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI> >>>> >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 8:47 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>>> I will follow further in Simmels and Urs Furher's footsteps as >>>>> this theme also brings in Ernst Boesch's theory of "symbolic >>>>> action" which >> was >>>>> developed as a notion that all phenomena [including action] have >>>>> both objective and symbolic "aspects". Boesch wrote: >>>>> >>>>> "This 'pervasiveness' of symbolism may be easy to grasp for a >>>> psychologist >>>>> with psychoanalytic experience or with strong artistic tastes; in >>>>> my >>>> case, >>>>> however, although I believe myself to have a bit of both, this >>>>> insight >>>> had >>>>> much more 'rational' roots. ... I trace its inception back to the >>>>> 1963 article 'Raum und Zeit als Valenzsysteme', in which I >>>>> formulated, for >> the >>>>> first time, the close *interrelatedness of 'valence' *[LP- >>>>> worth/value >> ] >>>>> and 'structure': the conceptual structuring of space depends, I >>>>> said, >>>> upon >>>>> the location of valences [worth/values] - it was the *'wish to return' >>>> *which >>>>> led to the specification and stability of *places.*" [cited in >> "reasons >>>>> For a Symbolic Concept of Action" in Culture and Psychology 1997 >>>>> Volume 3(3): pages 423-431] >>>>> >>>>> I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all >>>>> following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" >>>>> [multiple >>>> worths >>>>> and values] as symbolic actions. >>>>> >>>>> Larry >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:23 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Amazing "coincidence" Larry--- I just wrote to Urs who I have not >>>>>> corresponded with for years as a result of going through his book >>>>>> on cultivating minds. It has a chapter on behavior settings as >>>>>> media for promoting children's development that has me >>>>>> re-thinking a number of issues. Among other things, there is a >>>>>> very interesting discussion of Roger Barker's research program. >>>>>> Very worth >>>> while >>>>>> >>>>>> I could not open that file you sent, but I found the link to the >> journal >>>>>> article. Its here: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ja93v15n1.PDF >>>>>> >>>>>> There are a number of other interesting/relevant articles there. >>>>>> "The >>>> sound >>>>>> of the violin" is a favorite. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for reminding us of Simmel. >>>>>> Today, March 1, was his birthday! >>>>>> Coincidence? >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Larry Purss >>>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike, >>>>>>> I continued to explore Urs Furher's book that you mentioned on >>>>>>> Simmel >>>>>> that >>>>>>> would be potentially beneficial to follow. In my explorations I >>>>>>> came >>>>>> across >>>>>>> this article on the metaphor of "traces" or "footprints" in the >>>>>>> XMCA archives. It was written in 1993 and is an interesting >>>>>>> perspective on >>>> the >>>>>>> metaphor of cultivation AS FOOTPRINTS. It is the third article >>>>>>> in >> the >>>>>>> newsletter. >>>>>>> Urs is pointing to the reciprocal processes of "internalizing" >>>>>>> and "externalizing" the inner "affective sense" of "place" >>>>>>> through >>>> attachment >>>>>>> to "home" and "vehicle" as concrete ways to form one's identity >> through >>>>>>> attachment/security needs and autonomy needs. >>>>>>> Larry >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with >>>>>> an >>>> object >>>>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Mar 3 20:26:01 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 20:26:01 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a long and challenging thread already, Larry. Making the connections between Boesch, Urs, Simmel,,,,,, is something I will have to think about. Feels like a family resemblence alright. But I wonder about the following conclusion: I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" [multiple worths and values] as symbolic actions. Might the similarity arise because symbolic actions are polysemic, and polyvalence is a part of polysemy of meaning? Where do the symbolic interactionists come into this story. Kenneth Burke, for example? next comes the poetry and music! mike On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 7:47 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Mike, > I will follow further in Simmels and Urs Furher's footsteps as this > theme also brings in Ernst Boesch's theory of "symbolic action" which was > developed as a notion that all phenomena [including action] have both > objective and symbolic "aspects". Boesch wrote: > > "This 'pervasiveness' of symbolism may be easy to grasp for a psychologist > with psychoanalytic experience or with strong artistic tastes; in my case, > however, although I believe myself to have a bit of both, this insight had > much more 'rational' roots. ... I trace its inception back to the 1963 > article 'Raum und Zeit als Valenzsysteme', in which I formulated, for the > first time, the close *interrelatedness of 'valence' *[LP- worth/value ] > and 'structure': the conceptual structuring of space depends, I said, upon > the location of valences [worth/values] - it was the *'wish to return' > *which > led to the specification and stability of *places.*" [cited in "reasons > For a Symbolic Concept of Action" in Culture and Psychology 1997 > Volume 3(3): pages 423-431] > > I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all > following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" [multiple worths > and values] as symbolic actions. > > Larry > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:23 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Amazing "coincidence" Larry--- I just wrote to Urs who I have not > > corresponded with for years as a result of going through his book on > > cultivating minds. It has a chapter on behavior > > settings as media for promoting children's development that has me > > re-thinking a number of issues. Among other things, there is a very > > interesting discussion of Roger Barker's research program. Very worth > while > > > > I could not open that file you sent, but I found the link to the journal > > article. Its here: > > > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ja93v15n1.PDF > > > > There are a number of other interesting/relevant articles there. "The > sound > > of the violin" is a favorite. > > > > Thanks for reminding us of Simmel. > > Today, March 1, was his birthday! > > Coincidence? > > mike > > > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > > > Mike, > > > I continued to explore Urs Furher's book that you mentioned on Simmel > > that > > > would be potentially beneficial to follow. In my explorations I came > > across > > > this article on the metaphor of "traces" or "footprints" in the XMCA > > > archives. It was written in 1993 and is an interesting perspective on > the > > > metaphor of cultivation AS FOOTPRINTS. It is the third article in the > > > newsletter. > > > Urs is pointing to the reciprocal processes of "internalizing" and > > > "externalizing" the inner "affective sense" of "place" through > attachment > > > to "home" and "vehicle" as concrete ways to form one's identity through > > > attachment/security needs and autonomy needs. > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Mar 3 20:26:38 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 20:26:38 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Very far out! That video of their performance is amazing. mike On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 9:43 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Larry and Mike, > I think you guys are on to something. Thank goodness for valence, the salt > of the earth according to the McGarrigles: > > KATE & ANNA MCGARRIGLE > "NaCl" > Just a little atom of Chlorine, valence minus one > Swimming through the sea, digging the scene, just having fun > She's not worried about the shape or size of her outside shell > It's fun to ionize > Just a little atom of Cl with an unfilled shell > But somewhere in that sea lurks handsome Sodium > With enough electrons on his outside shell plus that extra one > Somewhere in this deep blue sea there's a negative > For my extra energy > Yes, somewhere in this foam my positive will find a home > Then unsuspecting Chlorine felt a magnetic pull > She looked down and her outside shell was full > Sodium cried, "What a gas, be my bride > And I'll change your name from Chlorine to chloride!" > Now the sea evaporates to make the clouds for the rain and snow > Leaving her chemical compounds in the absence of H2O > But the crystals that wash upon the shore are happy ones > So, if you never thought before > Think of the love that you eat when you salt you meat! > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI < > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI> > > Henry > > > > > > > > On Mar 2, 2015, at 8:47 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > Mike, > > I will follow further in Simmels and Urs Furher's footsteps as this > > theme also brings in Ernst Boesch's theory of "symbolic action" which was > > developed as a notion that all phenomena [including action] have both > > objective and symbolic "aspects". Boesch wrote: > > > > "This 'pervasiveness' of symbolism may be easy to grasp for a > psychologist > > with psychoanalytic experience or with strong artistic tastes; in my > case, > > however, although I believe myself to have a bit of both, this insight > had > > much more 'rational' roots. ... I trace its inception back to the 1963 > > article 'Raum und Zeit als Valenzsysteme', in which I formulated, for the > > first time, the close *interrelatedness of 'valence' *[LP- worth/value ] > > and 'structure': the conceptual structuring of space depends, I said, > upon > > the location of valences [worth/values] - it was the *'wish to return' > *which > > led to the specification and stability of *places.*" [cited in "reasons > > For a Symbolic Concept of Action" in Culture and Psychology 1997 > > Volume 3(3): pages 423-431] > > > > I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all > > following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" [multiple > worths > > and values] as symbolic actions. > > > > Larry > > > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:23 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> Amazing "coincidence" Larry--- I just wrote to Urs who I have not > >> corresponded with for years as a result of going through his book on > >> cultivating minds. It has a chapter on behavior > >> settings as media for promoting children's development that has me > >> re-thinking a number of issues. Among other things, there is a very > >> interesting discussion of Roger Barker's research program. Very worth > while > >> > >> I could not open that file you sent, but I found the link to the journal > >> article. Its here: > >> > >> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ja93v15n1.PDF > >> > >> There are a number of other interesting/relevant articles there. "The > sound > >> of the violin" is a favorite. > >> > >> Thanks for reminding us of Simmel. > >> Today, March 1, was his birthday! > >> Coincidence? > >> mike > >> > >> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > >> > >>> Mike, > >>> I continued to explore Urs Furher's book that you mentioned on Simmel > >> that > >>> would be potentially beneficial to follow. In my explorations I came > >> across > >>> this article on the metaphor of "traces" or "footprints" in the XMCA > >>> archives. It was written in 1993 and is an interesting perspective on > the > >>> metaphor of cultivation AS FOOTPRINTS. It is the third article in the > >>> newsletter. > >>> Urs is pointing to the reciprocal processes of "internalizing" and > >>> "externalizing" the inner "affective sense" of "place" through > attachment > >>> to "home" and "vehicle" as concrete ways to form one's identity through > >>> attachment/security needs and autonomy needs. > >>> Larry > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >> > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Mar 3 20:30:51 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 04:30:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: <068E20FC-1B84-4940-AB39-E12E967DD744@gmail.com> References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> <8FF4CB36-A23B-4301-903A-E59FAD369C6F@gmail.com> <002701d05627$70faeaf0$52f0c0d0$@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp>, <068E20FC-1B84-4940-AB39-E12E967DD744@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1425443453524.89004@unm.edu> What is life? A donut; What is life? A hole, a crust, a glaze; and the best is a trifle; that all life is a bite until the donut is no more. From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Mar 3 20:35:12 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 20:35:12 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> <8FF4CB36-A23B-4301-903A-E59FAD369C6F@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have noted the same phenomenon, David. Sometimes we get into Vygotskian chaining but then the conversation may (or may not) become around again, and we actually see a spiral of development. My colleagues at UCSD have often done performance art that is collective...... for example, as part of a highly contentious protest against rascism at a frat party. The Occupy movement has/had (?) elements of performance art. Linking the issue to an individualist or collectivist theory of human consciousness was very helpful to me. mike On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 1:58 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Sometimes xmca reiterates. > > This isn't always a good thing; it's often because someone (usually me) > wants to say the same thing a second time and just can't come up with a > better way of saying it. But sometimes it's a good thing, either becuase > the list as a whole has forgotten something it once knew or (better) there > are new people who weren't here for the first part of the conversation, or > (best of all) a thread has really turned into a kind of Moebius strip and > is doubling back on itself, but in a way that brings something that was > only implicit out and makes it explicit. > > All of which is an excuse for me to recycle the following posting, which I > wrote many years ago when my friend the performance artist Shu Yang was > last in Seoul. > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2010_11.dir/msg00242.html > > I think the point I'm trying to make here--but it is implicit and I will > try to make it a little more explicit--is that we should have predicted all > the sensationalist and EXHIBITIONISTIC excesses of today's performance art, > simply from the fact that performance art is ART, and art in a bourgeois > society will inevitably centre on the all-conquering, all-absorbing, > all-obscuring individual. So today performance art sees the body as its > main asset, but by doing this it has turned the body into its main > obstacle. Seeing performance art as a projection of performance, the body > denies performance art as an injection of art. > > If performance art wants to be art and not just performance, then it has to > grasp the basic Vygotskyan principle that art is not the socialization of > bodily feelings, but on the contrary, the individuation of a social > feeling. That's what made Shu Yang's performance art, and the other > performances mere performance. > > Reiterate xmca...sometimes. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 4 March 2015 at 02:51, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > Larry, > > I am mashing up serveral themes lately in the chat braid: > > Style and authenticity: Are they compatible? I am thinking about the > > discussion of performance art. Annalisa posted a radio podcast about > > professional wrestling. Is it fake, and if so, so what? it?s just > > entertainment. And makes lots of money. Your three definitions of FREEDOM > > come to mind (boiled way down, leaving just the salt): 1) autonomy, 2) > > expression of AUTHENTIC self, 3) collaborative/creaiive hoping. So, I see > > PLAY saving the day in that third, hopeful space, that sweet spot. Where > > people play at being both stylish and authentic. That would never go out > of > > style. That would be vital. And wouldn?t be dreadfully boring. > > > > I look back at the previous paragraph and thought I might try to unpack > > it, but that would be even more arrogant than having written it in the > > first place. So, let?s just leave it there. Play with it. Come on, peeps, > > come out and play!! Snow has melted here in the Break Bad City, all mud > > puddle luscious. We?re high desert, so this is a real treat. Sorry can?t > > send some of our mud to Mike in San Diego. > > Henry > > > > > > > > > On Mar 3, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > > > Henry, > > > Let's follow further the opening comment of the song [this is an > > "approach > > > that has gone out of favour in the scientific world] Poetry as > > "metaphor" > > > but not "mere" metaphor as the handmaiden of the "realistic" and the > > > "conceptual" Rather "metaphor AS realistic" and also the reciprocal > "the > > > realistic AS metaphorical" Chemicals as personifications > > > [anthro-morphisms] "attract" each other. > > > > > > I am "implicating" metaphor and valences AND rational conceptions as > > equal > > > "partners" in "approaching" the notion of life as "vitality" [another > > > notion that has gone out of fashion I am suggesting that this "theme" > of > > > "life" as vital/dead seems to "play" out and also > > > "play" within internal/external "dramas". > > > Daniel Stern most recent book is on the notion of "vitality" Also > > > Heidegger's notion of "care and concern". > > > > > > Just saying - > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 9:43 PM, HENRY SHONERD > > wrote: > > > > > >> Larry and Mike, > > >> I think you guys are on to something. Thank goodness for valence, the > > salt > > >> of the earth according to the McGarrigles: > > >> > > >> KATE & ANNA MCGARRIGLE > > >> "NaCl" > > >> Just a little atom of Chlorine, valence minus one > > >> Swimming through the sea, digging the scene, just having fun > > >> She's not worried about the shape or size of her outside shell > > >> It's fun to ionize > > >> Just a little atom of Cl with an unfilled shell > > >> But somewhere in that sea lurks handsome Sodium > > >> With enough electrons on his outside shell plus that extra one > > >> Somewhere in this deep blue sea there's a negative > > >> For my extra energy > > >> Yes, somewhere in this foam my positive will find a home > > >> Then unsuspecting Chlorine felt a magnetic pull > > >> She looked down and her outside shell was full > > >> Sodium cried, "What a gas, be my bride > > >> And I'll change your name from Chlorine to chloride!" > > >> Now the sea evaporates to make the clouds for the rain and snow > > >> Leaving her chemical compounds in the absence of H2O > > >> But the crystals that wash upon the shore are happy ones > > >> So, if you never thought before > > >> Think of the love that you eat when you salt you meat! > > >> > > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI < > > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI> > > >> > > >> Henry > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 8:47 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Mike, > > >>> I will follow further in Simmels and Urs Furher's footsteps as this > > >>> theme also brings in Ernst Boesch's theory of "symbolic action" which > > was > > >>> developed as a notion that all phenomena [including action] have both > > >>> objective and symbolic "aspects". Boesch wrote: > > >>> > > >>> "This 'pervasiveness' of symbolism may be easy to grasp for a > > >> psychologist > > >>> with psychoanalytic experience or with strong artistic tastes; in my > > >> case, > > >>> however, although I believe myself to have a bit of both, this > insight > > >> had > > >>> much more 'rational' roots. ... I trace its inception back to the > 1963 > > >>> article 'Raum und Zeit als Valenzsysteme', in which I formulated, for > > the > > >>> first time, the close *interrelatedness of 'valence' *[LP- > worth/value > > ] > > >>> and 'structure': the conceptual structuring of space depends, I said, > > >> upon > > >>> the location of valences [worth/values] - it was the *'wish to > return' > > >> *which > > >>> led to the specification and stability of *places.*" [cited in > > "reasons > > >>> For a Symbolic Concept of Action" in Culture and Psychology 1997 > > >>> Volume 3(3): pages 423-431] > > >>> > > >>> I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all > > >>> following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" [multiple > > >> worths > > >>> and values] as symbolic actions. > > >>> > > >>> Larry > > >>> > > >>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:23 PM, mike cole wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Amazing "coincidence" Larry--- I just wrote to Urs who I have not > > >>>> corresponded with for years as a result of going through his book on > > >>>> cultivating minds. It has a chapter on behavior > > >>>> settings as media for promoting children's development that has me > > >>>> re-thinking a number of issues. Among other things, there is a very > > >>>> interesting discussion of Roger Barker's research program. Very > worth > > >> while > > >>>> > > >>>> I could not open that file you sent, but I found the link to the > > journal > > >>>> article. Its here: > > >>>> > > >>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ja93v15n1.PDF > > >>>> > > >>>> There are a number of other interesting/relevant articles there. > "The > > >> sound > > >>>> of the violin" is a favorite. > > >>>> > > >>>> Thanks for reminding us of Simmel. > > >>>> Today, March 1, was his birthday! > > >>>> Coincidence? > > >>>> mike > > >>>> > > >>>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Larry Purss > > >> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Mike, > > >>>>> I continued to explore Urs Furher's book that you mentioned on > Simmel > > >>>> that > > >>>>> would be potentially beneficial to follow. In my explorations I > came > > >>>> across > > >>>>> this article on the metaphor of "traces" or "footprints" in the > XMCA > > >>>>> archives. It was written in 1993 and is an interesting perspective > on > > >> the > > >>>>> metaphor of cultivation AS FOOTPRINTS. It is the third article in > > the > > >>>>> newsletter. > > >>>>> Urs is pointing to the reciprocal processes of "internalizing" and > > >>>>> "externalizing" the inner "affective sense" of "place" through > > >> attachment > > >>>>> to "home" and "vehicle" as concrete ways to form one's identity > > through > > >>>>> attachment/security needs and autonomy needs. > > >>>>> Larry > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> -- > > >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > >> object > > >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > >>>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Mar 3 20:40:33 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 20:40:33 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> <8FF4CB36-A23B-4301-903A-E59FAD369C6F@gmail.com> <1425425795854.91811@unm.edu> <1425431574507.86013@unm.edu> Message-ID: Larry--- Luria reported that Vygotsky was interested in demonstrations of phenomena of critical interest to him, such as children incorporating objects and people into their goal directed actions, but did not care much about big N studies. Experiments "pour voire" i think is how ARL referred to his attitude. Not unlike Simmel in that regard. mike On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 6:09 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Henry, > I am interested in your question of the relation of "style" and > "authenticity" and how they relate to "living in truth" [whatever "truth" > means??] > I have been linking Morten Nissen's work to Ernst Bloch and that led to > Simmel and then through Mike's commentary to Urs Furher and that lead on to > Ernst Boesch. > > I brought in the theme of "salon culture" and the labelling of Simmel as a > "flaneur" who wrote "impressions" of the metropolis but who was > often criticized for not being "systematic" > The question of Simmel being focused on the "style" of the "essay" and > therefore labelled not "rigorous" or "scientific" in his approach to > sociology [and philosophy]. > > Henry, you "locating" your impressionistic years as Berkley in the mid > 1960's is expressing a certain "style" [which I also lived through] and > influences how we "understand" [and could be critiqued in a similar way to > the style of "salon culture". > Now the question of "authenticity" [living in truth] leads to the question > "who gets to judge the authenticity of a person "living in truth" Is it > tied to living "free"?? [and this concept opens the meaning of freedom as > "autonomy/negative freedom" OR freedom as "expression/positive freedom" OR > "third spaces/situated freedom" . > > Returning to Simmel. Is his focussing on "reciprocal interaction" too > vague and unsystematic [not rigorous] or is this "style" an authentic way > to approach human nature? I will offer a comment from David Frisby in his > book "Georg Simmel": > > ".... that for a founding father Simmel seems curiously remote from > organized sociology and seems to be a neglected figure. This impression, > it is argued, may stem from a discrepancy between Simmel's *style* of > thought and the prevailing sociological 'idiom' which has come to be > dominated by detailed and refined empirical research and specialized modes > of conceptualization that can only be used by professionals." [page 15] > > Frisby also states: > > "Simmel goes so far as to state in his "Sociology" that although the work > is replete with actual empirical and historical example that illustrate his > propositions, he could just as well used *fictitious ones*. In this > respect , Simmel is the first sociologist to apply the philosophy of > '*As-It' > *to the sociological domain." [page 15] > > Henry, the question of the relation of "style" and "authenticity" is that > yes there is a reciprocal relation, but this relation is always localized > and to be "worked out". At least that is the "footsteps" I am "tracing" in > this commentary. > > Larry > > On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Hi Henry, > > > > Sometimes the tool doesn't do justice to the message, and listservs (as > > tools for communication) are not excluded from that. > > > > And so I was a little lost in what your confessional is and unsure how > > that connects to What is Art, which was the topic I was discussing (and > how > > that pertains to Performance Art). > > > > It is nice that you feel a personal attachment to Rubin and Hoffman and > > you loved them as your icons. There will be a time when no one will be > > alive to remember them and they will only be known as a wikipedia page. > > > > I'm not sure that there are many people like Hoffman in society at the > > moment who are challenging our notions of what is acceptable for the > human > > race and the planet. And if they are, there is usually a process of > > monetizing it in some way. > > > > The only person I can think of right now is Medea Benjamin from Code Pink > > who might be an equivalent. Interestingly (speaking of wikipedia pages) > it > > says about them: > > > > "Code Pink often uses intrusive, political street theater to publicize > its > > positions. Favored methods include the use of puppets, effigies, > over-sized > > heads, and fake blood, according to John J. Tierney in a publication of > the > > conservative think tank, Capital Research Center." > > > > I find it interesting that a conservative think tank describes their > > "favored methods." That is a very strange phrase. > > > > The way I know them and has been most effective, which is how I know > about > > them, is that they attend a hearing and they stand up and yell out their > > objections and their love for their country as they are being escorted > out > > of the room. I never saw fake blood in these televised objections, but > > figure that is likely one element of many in their art palette in their > > "stage theater". > > > > When every country on the planet allows women in pink t-shirts to stand > up > > and yell without arresting and/or maiming and/or killing them, it will > be a > > great day indeed. > > > > I think I can say Hoffman's life could fill the Eagles song lyric, > because > > time has a way of bringing out what is tragic and beautiful in the same > > place. Despair is a legitimate response to what was going on back then. > > Seems to me that you were threading the needle, and you have lived to > tell > > it. > > > > I certainly hope you aren't taking the stance of General MacArthur about > > old soldiers fading away... > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Mar 3 20:42:46 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 21:42:46 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: <1425442518281.99638@unm.edu> References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> <8FF4CB36-A23B-4301-903A-E59FAD369C6F@gmail.com> <1425425795854.91811@unm.edu> <1425431574507.86013@unm.edu> <, > <1425442518281.99638@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, Now I?m really lost. If my contributions to a thread are equal to David?s, things are even worse than I thought. Should I join a club that would take me as a member? I yearn for single answers, but am working very hard at appreciating complexity. So, I try to avoid self-righteousness when talking about truth, again a work in progress. What I?m saying is don?t encourage me. And stop making sense. Henry > On Mar 3, 2015, at 9:15 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Larry, Henry and esteemed others, > > I very much responded to what you wrote here: > > [Now the question of "authenticity" [living in truth] leads to the question "who gets to judge the authenticity of a person "living in truth" Is it tied to living "free"?? [and this concept opens the meaning of freedom as > "autonomy/negative freedom" OR freedom as "expression/positive freedom" OR > "third spaces/situated freedom" .] > > I value the discourse around what you point out above, Larry, and the question itself allows for a plural contribution, because I don't think there is a single answer. What I'm interested in is not finding that single answer, but hearing how Many Others answer the question (for themselves). > > For example, speaking to style and authenticity combined, I would say Valerie's response to this thread to be equal to mine which is equal to yours which is equal to Henry's which is equal to David's, etc. And yet they are all different, all authentic, each with a different style, and all true. > > (I can't imagine why anyone would (intentionally) post something that was not true, because that doesn't make any sense to me. I am also taking as a given that everyone on the list is free to express themselves ?even if that expression is silence? perhaps that is my prefigurative stance and where I'm operating from that we are all free.) > > I'm not sure there needs to be a job description for an authenticity judge necessarily, as people seem to select themselves to do that job and usually break up the party, if only because they break the spell. > > In any case, given all that, should we stop discussing because we can't come to a single, qualified answer? > > I hope not. > > It would be like going to an art gallery and seeing multiple versions of the same picture on the wall, even framed the exact same way. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Mar 3 20:44:04 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 21:44:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And a thousand clowns! > On Mar 3, 2015, at 9:26 PM, mike cole wrote: > > This is a long and challenging thread already, Larry. Making the > connections between > Boesch, Urs, Simmel,,,,,, is something I will have to think about. Feels > like a family resemblence alright. But I wonder about the following > conclusion: > > I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all > following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" [multiple worths > and values] as symbolic actions. > > Might the similarity arise because symbolic actions are polysemic, and > polyvalence is a part of > polysemy of meaning? > > Where do the symbolic interactionists come into this story. Kenneth Burke, > for example? > > next comes the poetry and music! > mike > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 7:47 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > >> Mike, >> I will follow further in Simmels and Urs Furher's footsteps as this >> theme also brings in Ernst Boesch's theory of "symbolic action" which was >> developed as a notion that all phenomena [including action] have both >> objective and symbolic "aspects". Boesch wrote: >> >> "This 'pervasiveness' of symbolism may be easy to grasp for a psychologist >> with psychoanalytic experience or with strong artistic tastes; in my case, >> however, although I believe myself to have a bit of both, this insight had >> much more 'rational' roots. ... I trace its inception back to the 1963 >> article 'Raum und Zeit als Valenzsysteme', in which I formulated, for the >> first time, the close *interrelatedness of 'valence' *[LP- worth/value ] >> and 'structure': the conceptual structuring of space depends, I said, upon >> the location of valences [worth/values] - it was the *'wish to return' >> *which >> led to the specification and stability of *places.*" [cited in "reasons >> For a Symbolic Concept of Action" in Culture and Psychology 1997 >> Volume 3(3): pages 423-431] >> >> I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all >> following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" [multiple worths >> and values] as symbolic actions. >> >> Larry >> >> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:23 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Amazing "coincidence" Larry--- I just wrote to Urs who I have not >>> corresponded with for years as a result of going through his book on >>> cultivating minds. It has a chapter on behavior >>> settings as media for promoting children's development that has me >>> re-thinking a number of issues. Among other things, there is a very >>> interesting discussion of Roger Barker's research program. Very worth >> while >>> >>> I could not open that file you sent, but I found the link to the journal >>> article. Its here: >>> >>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ja93v15n1.PDF >>> >>> There are a number of other interesting/relevant articles there. "The >> sound >>> of the violin" is a favorite. >>> >>> Thanks for reminding us of Simmel. >>> Today, March 1, was his birthday! >>> Coincidence? >>> mike >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Larry Purss >> wrote: >>> >>>> Mike, >>>> I continued to explore Urs Furher's book that you mentioned on Simmel >>> that >>>> would be potentially beneficial to follow. In my explorations I came >>> across >>>> this article on the metaphor of "traces" or "footprints" in the XMCA >>>> archives. It was written in 1993 and is an interesting perspective on >> the >>>> metaphor of cultivation AS FOOTPRINTS. It is the third article in the >>>> newsletter. >>>> Urs is pointing to the reciprocal processes of "internalizing" and >>>> "externalizing" the inner "affective sense" of "place" through >> attachment >>>> to "home" and "vehicle" as concrete ways to form one's identity through >>>> attachment/security needs and autonomy needs. >>>> Larry >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object >>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >> > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Mar 3 20:45:08 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 21:45:08 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> Message-ID: The the STEM crowd. A sexy bunch! > On Mar 3, 2015, at 9:26 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Very far out! That video of their performance is amazing. > mike > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 9:43 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Larry and Mike, >> I think you guys are on to something. Thank goodness for valence, the salt >> of the earth according to the McGarrigles: >> >> KATE & ANNA MCGARRIGLE >> "NaCl" >> Just a little atom of Chlorine, valence minus one >> Swimming through the sea, digging the scene, just having fun >> She's not worried about the shape or size of her outside shell >> It's fun to ionize >> Just a little atom of Cl with an unfilled shell >> But somewhere in that sea lurks handsome Sodium >> With enough electrons on his outside shell plus that extra one >> Somewhere in this deep blue sea there's a negative >> For my extra energy >> Yes, somewhere in this foam my positive will find a home >> Then unsuspecting Chlorine felt a magnetic pull >> She looked down and her outside shell was full >> Sodium cried, "What a gas, be my bride >> And I'll change your name from Chlorine to chloride!" >> Now the sea evaporates to make the clouds for the rain and snow >> Leaving her chemical compounds in the absence of H2O >> But the crystals that wash upon the shore are happy ones >> So, if you never thought before >> Think of the love that you eat when you salt you meat! >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI < >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI> >> >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 8:47 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>> Mike, >>> I will follow further in Simmels and Urs Furher's footsteps as this >>> theme also brings in Ernst Boesch's theory of "symbolic action" which was >>> developed as a notion that all phenomena [including action] have both >>> objective and symbolic "aspects". Boesch wrote: >>> >>> "This 'pervasiveness' of symbolism may be easy to grasp for a >> psychologist >>> with psychoanalytic experience or with strong artistic tastes; in my >> case, >>> however, although I believe myself to have a bit of both, this insight >> had >>> much more 'rational' roots. ... I trace its inception back to the 1963 >>> article 'Raum und Zeit als Valenzsysteme', in which I formulated, for the >>> first time, the close *interrelatedness of 'valence' *[LP- worth/value ] >>> and 'structure': the conceptual structuring of space depends, I said, >> upon >>> the location of valences [worth/values] - it was the *'wish to return' >> *which >>> led to the specification and stability of *places.*" [cited in "reasons >>> For a Symbolic Concept of Action" in Culture and Psychology 1997 >>> Volume 3(3): pages 423-431] >>> >>> I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all >>> following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" [multiple >> worths >>> and values] as symbolic actions. >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:23 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> Amazing "coincidence" Larry--- I just wrote to Urs who I have not >>>> corresponded with for years as a result of going through his book on >>>> cultivating minds. It has a chapter on behavior >>>> settings as media for promoting children's development that has me >>>> re-thinking a number of issues. Among other things, there is a very >>>> interesting discussion of Roger Barker's research program. Very worth >> while >>>> >>>> I could not open that file you sent, but I found the link to the journal >>>> article. Its here: >>>> >>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ja93v15n1.PDF >>>> >>>> There are a number of other interesting/relevant articles there. "The >> sound >>>> of the violin" is a favorite. >>>> >>>> Thanks for reminding us of Simmel. >>>> Today, March 1, was his birthday! >>>> Coincidence? >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Larry Purss >> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>>> I continued to explore Urs Furher's book that you mentioned on Simmel >>>> that >>>>> would be potentially beneficial to follow. In my explorations I came >>>> across >>>>> this article on the metaphor of "traces" or "footprints" in the XMCA >>>>> archives. It was written in 1993 and is an interesting perspective on >> the >>>>> metaphor of cultivation AS FOOTPRINTS. It is the third article in the >>>>> newsletter. >>>>> Urs is pointing to the reciprocal processes of "internalizing" and >>>>> "externalizing" the inner "affective sense" of "place" through >> attachment >>>>> to "home" and "vehicle" as concrete ways to form one's identity through >>>>> attachment/security needs and autonomy needs. >>>>> Larry >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Mar 3 20:46:13 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 21:46:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: <1425443453524.89004@unm.edu> References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> <8FF4CB36-A23B-4301-903A-E59FAD369C6F@gmail.com> <002701d05627$70faeaf0$52f0c0d0$@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> <, > <068E20FC-1B84-4940-AB39-E12E967DD744@gmail.com> <1425443453524.89004@unm.edu> Message-ID: <41513EB6-04F4-4507-9E7C-20704DBEA800@gmail.com> Like!!!!! > On Mar 3, 2015, at 9:30 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > What is life? A donut; > What is life? A hole, > a crust, a glaze; > and the best is a trifle; > that all life is a bite > until the donut is no more. > > From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Mar 3 20:58:59 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 04:58:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: <8B149B89-CFAC-46CA-BD5C-C83A28E2C4DE@gmail.com> <8FF4CB36-A23B-4301-903A-E59FAD369C6F@gmail.com> <1425425795854.91811@unm.edu> <1425431574507.86013@unm.edu> <, > <1425442518281.99638@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1425445141609.13734@unm.edu> Hi Henry and esteemed others, I was thinking about this notion of evaluating authenticity? I thought... if we accept something as authentic, do we ever even ask the question "Is this authentic?" It's only when we have a doubt that we ask the question. If we accept something as authentic, we never do ask that question. There is something M?bius-strippy about that, methinks... Oh... but maybe authenticity questions are asked perhaps when one is an antique appraiser from an auction house on the Antique Roadshow? Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Mar 3 22:13:11 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 22:13:11 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, Yes, I "sense" a family resemblance and I also agree that next comes the poetry and the music - AND the imaginal. Ernst Boesch noticing the "reciprocal interaction" of both "realistic action" and "symbolic action" as a "unity". The question of the particular way spaces/places emerge as both realistic AND symbolic/metaphorical phenomena. In Simmel's work sociology expressing the phenomena of "as - it". In Urs thoughts the emergence of spaces/places in how we "express" our sense of "home" and "vehicles" as polyvalent. In Boesch's work the equal power of the realistic and symbolic. In Bloch's work the potential power of "blues hope". This is the way Ernst Boesch expresses this "theme": [and also a particular "style" or an "approach"] ".... replacing a model of dualistic functioning - 'realistic' and 'symbolic' - by a unitary, but two dimensional one. On the one hand, we structure our experienced reality according to factual instrumental, spatio-temporal - i.e. 'realistic' qualities which allow social communication and coordination; but we also, and jointly, structure our experience in relation to situations and actions significant to our I-world relationship, thereby establishing a kind of biographical consistency. Denotational language, corresponding to the 'realistic' structuring of our world, relates to facts commonly understood and defined; thereby it became the language of the 'realist' or the 'rationalist', acceptable to science and publicly valued. In contrast, implicational language, necessarily variable according to situations and individuals, points at aspects of reality difficult to define, and thus would rather be the language of dreamers, poets, or neurotics. *Combining structure and valence*, denotation and connotation, concept and symbol, into two *equally important, and necessarily interdependent*, components of *action and perception* threatened the usual scientific discourse and the relatively *firm frontiers* between 'rationality' and 'symbolism' " [cited in Ernst Boesch "Reasons for a Symbolic Concept of Action" in Culture & Psychology 1997 Volume 3 (3), pages 423-431] The bold highlighting I have added to capture or grasp the recurring theme of "reciprocal interaction" as it "plays out" in our performances and dramas and scenes. Also to show that these various authors seem to be following path marked out through "footprints" or "traces" that express a "drive" towards life's vitality. Simmel's last book written in 1918 was focused on life as vitality [or the loss of vitality] On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 8:26 PM, mike cole wrote: > This is a long and challenging thread already, Larry. Making the > connections between > Boesch, Urs, Simmel,,,,,, is something I will have to think about. Feels > like a family resemblence alright. But I wonder about the following > conclusion: > > I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all > following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" [multiple worths > and values] as symbolic actions. > > Might the similarity arise because symbolic actions are polysemic, and > polyvalence is a part of > polysemy of meaning? > > Where do the symbolic interactionists come into this story. Kenneth Burke, > for example? > > next comes the poetry and music! > mike > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 7:47 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Mike, > > I will follow further in Simmels and Urs Furher's footsteps as this > > theme also brings in Ernst Boesch's theory of "symbolic action" which was > > developed as a notion that all phenomena [including action] have both > > objective and symbolic "aspects". Boesch wrote: > > > > "This 'pervasiveness' of symbolism may be easy to grasp for a > psychologist > > with psychoanalytic experience or with strong artistic tastes; in my > case, > > however, although I believe myself to have a bit of both, this insight > had > > much more 'rational' roots. ... I trace its inception back to the 1963 > > article 'Raum und Zeit als Valenzsysteme', in which I formulated, for the > > first time, the close *interrelatedness of 'valence' *[LP- worth/value ] > > and 'structure': the conceptual structuring of space depends, I said, > upon > > the location of valences [worth/values] - it was the *'wish to return' > > *which > > led to the specification and stability of *places.*" [cited in "reasons > > For a Symbolic Concept of Action" in Culture and Psychology 1997 > > Volume 3(3): pages 423-431] > > > > I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all > > following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" [multiple > worths > > and values] as symbolic actions. > > > > Larry > > > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:23 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Amazing "coincidence" Larry--- I just wrote to Urs who I have not > > > corresponded with for years as a result of going through his book on > > > cultivating minds. It has a chapter on behavior > > > settings as media for promoting children's development that has me > > > re-thinking a number of issues. Among other things, there is a very > > > interesting discussion of Roger Barker's research program. Very worth > > while > > > > > > I could not open that file you sent, but I found the link to the > journal > > > article. Its here: > > > > > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ja93v15n1.PDF > > > > > > There are a number of other interesting/relevant articles there. "The > > sound > > > of the violin" is a favorite. > > > > > > Thanks for reminding us of Simmel. > > > Today, March 1, was his birthday! > > > Coincidence? > > > mike > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Larry Purss > > wrote: > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > I continued to explore Urs Furher's book that you mentioned on Simmel > > > that > > > > would be potentially beneficial to follow. In my explorations I came > > > across > > > > this article on the metaphor of "traces" or "footprints" in the XMCA > > > > archives. It was written in 1993 and is an interesting perspective on > > the > > > > metaphor of cultivation AS FOOTPRINTS. It is the third article in > the > > > > newsletter. > > > > Urs is pointing to the reciprocal processes of "internalizing" and > > > > "externalizing" the inner "affective sense" of "place" through > > attachment > > > > to "home" and "vehicle" as concrete ways to form one's identity > through > > > > attachment/security needs and autonomy needs. > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Mar 3 22:51:47 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 06:51:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <1425451907072.92411@unm.edu> Dear Larry, [Did you mean to say "as-if" or "as-it"?] Also... as I attempt to follow your thread, with it's twist and turns, emphases, I responded to Boesch's apparent dichotomy of explicit and implicit. I'm not sure if I am correct to make that distinction, but I have. In any case, one aspect I become aware of in the quote you present is the absence of discourse surrounding feeling and affect (which seems to be my recent bang on a gong) and how these human experiences/interactions involving emotion are vital in both doing science and doing art. I'm not sure how one drives the tool of imagination, for example, without feeling and affect there. When we see with our eyes we rarely are conscious THAT we are using our eyes. We just see what we see without thinking much about it. Why is it not the same with feeling and affect? Here it is again, a grouping: dreamers, poets, and neurotics. Why this suspcious grouping? Perhaps that which is implied is just a different language that has its own coherency, it's own rationality, it's own reality. Why the assignment of "implied meaning" to these people? Why is the implied not present in the realistic? or the explicit in the symbolic? I am of the impression Boesch is pointing this question out but from a different angle than I when he says that they are separate but interdependent. Perhaps I'm not fully understanding the meaning (explicit and implicit) of polysemic and polyvalence, however why must rationality and symbolism be separate at all? Kind regards, Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Wed Mar 4 15:47:27 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 10:47:27 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] The Concepts of CHAT Message-ID: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> In January and February, I delivered 10 lectures on *The Concepts of CHAT* in Melbourne. I have edited them up into a series of videos, using the PowerPoint slides, subtitles and audience views to enhance the talking head. Shukla Sikder and Feiyan Chen did a great job in video recording the whole thing and the quality is good. The concepts covered are: Action, behaviour and consciousness; Genetic method; unity and dichotomy; Analysis by units and germ cell; Word meaning and artefact-mediated action, dual stimulation; Perezhivanie and catharsis, social situation of development, disability/compensation; Concepts during childhood; Spontaneous, true and actual concepts; the emotions; Activity: operations, actions and activities; Object of activity in Leontyev, Engestr?m and Vygotsky; Project as unit of social life. The videos and a link to the prescribed reading is at https://vimeo.com/groups/301100/ There's 10 hours of video there, so I don't expect reviews from xmca-ers, but anyone teaching CHAT might consider whether it meets some of your needs. I try to confine myself to what I know something about and as best I could, stayed away from issues of Psychology and Learning Science of which I am ignorant. Just the Concepts. Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Thu Mar 5 03:50:00 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 11:50:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sledgehammers in Mosul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2045952780.5613346.1425556200592.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Francine, This is not to be meant an intrusion because I'm back from a trip for eye therapy and I see as against the content of my off-list sincere message to you to the effect that you , in your turn , be more cautious vis-a-vis the Big Day's Politics of the Global Rush , we , in our turn , be more cautious and conscious of the fact that we've been KEPT backward and should try to restore our glorious history through peaceful co-existing means , you've been enflaming and intensifying the situation which is already bad enough for a peaceful co-existence . It's so shameless for me to recount the atrocities which befell us through acts of Capitalistic Rule because I keep respect for the people who are living under this rule at the Metropolis but are critic of it at least . What use if you say of the dim points in our history and I say of the dim points in your history , of the genocide of the local Indians , etc. ... What use if I say when the Middle Ages were little by little vanishing at the brim thin line of the horizon of History , Averros and Almaymonides talked of the NATURAL THEOLOGY which was enormously progressive at the time and provided a good atmosphere for Great Spinoza to go with it more perseveringly now that we are being savagely captivated on two sides the bigger Aryan brothers wanting us to either revolt or surrender to death , let alone , say of hundreds of known figures who made huge efforts to translate the Greek Cultural Heritage into other languages so that CULTURE might enjoy prosperous Transference . The big difference between us is that I refer to Rulers and Evils of a System but you explicitly talk of the ordinary people which amount to more than a billion but for SOME CAUSE which you do not mark have puffed off a tumor in one corner . ISIS , if there's no game with it , will be powdered off within a Day by the very same destructive Arsenal which in size of one millionth of it brought out the human terrible disaster in Hiroshima and Nakazaki .? Best Haydi ??? From: larry smolucha To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Sunday, 1 March 2015, 2:16:20 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sledgehammers in Mosul Message from Francine: Shirin, The polemic that such violence in the name of Islam is a response to European colonialism, capitalism, and the war in Iraq totally lacks credibility. There is no doubt that the war in Iraq created the opportunity for the rise of ISIS. But everyone knows that the animosity between Sunni and Shiite predates European and U.S. presence in the Middle East. The pillaging of Constantinople and the Basilica of Hagia Sophia was carried out by Turks in the name of Islam (in 1453). While many Muslims demand that the Temple Mount in Jerusalem and the land of Israel be returned to them, using the same logic how about returning Constantinople to the Europeans? This is now a post-Said world, thanks to ISIS. > From: shirinvossoughi@gmail.com > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:16:22 -0600 > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sledgehammers in Mosul > > Helena, > What is the message here? Does the link speak for itself and what does it > say? I am thinking about the "cultural vandalism" of the west in Iraq and > other parts of the region, and of the complex history (in which the US has > played a central role) that has led to what is being depicted in this > story. I do not mean to re-inscribe simplified west vs. middle east > narratives, but I do want to question how we are being asked to interpret > such acts. In this clip, as in so much media coverage of the region, such > practices are rooted in the uniquely anti-democratic or anti-free speech > tendencies of Islam. As Said famously argued, "we" are thereby exalted as > all the more democratic and free. > I wish the Western experts lamenting the destruction of artifacts in this > clip had as loudly and boldly lamented the destruction of life in the > brutal wars that led to this mess. > Shirin > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Helena Worthen > wrote: > > > http://bcove.me/1yo9t5x9 > > > > > > Helena Worthen > > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > > > > > ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Mar 5 06:19:41 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 06:19:41 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Little Evidence That Executive Function Interventions Boost Student Achievement In-Reply-To: <78.1259.415535.226122.68893773.1039@aeramail.org> References: <78.1259.415535.226122.68893773.1039@aeramail.org> Message-ID: Given the la la la about such interventions, journals on brain and education, etc., this is kind of interesting. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: AERA Communications Date: Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 6:00 AM Subject: Little Evidence That Executive Function Interventions Boost Student Achievement To: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu * For Immediate Release:* March 5, 2015 *Contact:* Tony Pals, tpals@aera.net office: (202) 238-3235 cell: (202) 288-9333 Bridget Jameson, bjameson@aera.net office: (202) 238-3233 *Study: Little Evidence That Executive Function Interventions Boost Student Achievement* *WASHINGTON, D.C., March 5, 2015?*Despite growing enthusiasm among educators and scholars about the potential of school-based executive function interventions to significantly increase student achievement, a federally funded meta-analysis of 25 years? worth of research finds no conclusive evidence that developing students? executive function skills leads to better academic performance, according to a new study published today in *Review of Educational Research*, a peer-reviewed journal of the American Educational Research Association. - VIDEO: Co-author Robin Jacob discusses key findings. The meta-analysis , by researchers Robin Jacob of the University of Michigan and Julia Parkinson of the American Institutes for Research, analyzed 67 studies published over the past 25 years on the link between executive function and achievement. The authors critically assessed whether improvements in executive function skills?the skills related to thoughtful planning, use of memory and attention, and ability to control impulses and resist distractions?lead to increases in reading and math achievement, as measured by standardized test scores, among school-age children from preschool through high school. More than half of the studies identified by the authors were published after 2010, reflecting the rapid increase in interest in the topic in recent years. While the authors found that previous research indicated a strong correlation between executive function and achievement, they found ?surprisingly little evidence? that the two are causally related. ?There?s a lot of evidence that executive function and achievement are highly correlated with one another, but there is not yet a resounding body of evidence that indicates that if you changed executive functioning skills by intervening in schools, that it would then lead to an improvement in achievement in children,? said Jacob. ?Although investing in executive function interventions has strong intuitive appeal, we should be wary of investing in these often expensive programs before we have a strong research base behind them.? ?Studies that explore the link between executive function and achievement abound, but what is striking about the body of research is how few attempts have been made to conduct rigorous analyses that would support a causal relationship,? said Jacob. The authors note that few studies have controlled for characteristics such as parental education, socioeconomic status, or IQ, although these characteristics have been found to be associated with the development of executive function. They found that even fewer studies have attempted randomized trials to rigorously assess the impact of interventions. ?Although the link between the two may well be causal, the link needs to be clearly established before programs designed to improve executive function in school-age children are taken to scale,? said Jacob. The meta-analysis provided several findings on the correlation between executive function and academic function: - The correlation is highly consistent whether measured at a single point in time or as a predictor of future achievement. - The correlation is approximately the same for different age groups?three-to-five year olds, six-to-11 year olds, and 12-to-18 year olds. - The correlation is about the same for achievement in both reading and math, countering the common assumption that executive function is more closely associated with success in math. - The correlation is consistent across subcomponents of executive function (inhibition, attention control, attention shifting, and working memory). *Funding* This research was supported by a grant from the Institute of Education Sciences at the U.S. Department of Education. *About AERA* *The **American Educational Research Association (AERA) **is the largest national professional organization devoted to the scientific study of education. Founded in 1916, AERA advances knowledge about education, encourages scholarly inquiry related to education, and promotes the use of research to improve education and serve the public good. Find AERA on **Facebook **and **Twitter* *.* This release is available online. ### ------------------------------ This email was sent to mcole@weber.ucsd.edu. You are receiving this email because of your association with AERA. Click the following link to change your preference or opt out of AERA emails: preferences American Educational Research Association 1430 K Street, NW, Suite 1200 Washington, DC 20005 www.aera.net -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Mar 5 11:46:11 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 12:46:11 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Concepts of CHAT In-Reply-To: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> Message-ID: Is there a website somewhere that these sorts of things can be archived? E.g., I just noticed that XMCA's (kinda clunky!) home page has links to videos from 2010 and 2008 but nothing more recent. http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ Seems a shame for this link only to appear on Andy's page and in this email that will soon be buried... Anyone have any ideas? -greg On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > In January and February, I delivered 10 lectures on *The Concepts of CHAT* > in Melbourne. > I have edited them up into a series of videos, using the PowerPoint > slides, subtitles and audience views to enhance the talking head. > Shukla Sikder and Feiyan Chen did a great job in video recording the whole > thing and the quality is good. > The concepts covered are: Action, behaviour and consciousness; Genetic > method; unity and dichotomy; Analysis by units and germ cell; Word > meaning and artefact-mediated action, dual stimulation; Perezhivanie and > catharsis, social situation of development, disability/compensation; > Concepts during childhood; Spontaneous, true and actual concepts; the > emotions; Activity: operations, actions and activities; Object of activity > in Leontyev, Engestr?m and Vygotsky; Project as unit of social life. > The videos and a link to the prescribed reading is at > https://vimeo.com/groups/301100/ > > There's 10 hours of video there, so I don't expect reviews from xmca-ers, > but anyone teaching CHAT might consider whether it meets some of your > needs. I try to confine myself to what I know something about and as best I > could, stayed away from issues of Psychology and Learning Science of which > I am ignorant. Just the Concepts. > > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Mar 5 13:53:16 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 13:53:16 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Concepts of CHAT In-Reply-To: References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> Message-ID: Now what to do about that clunky xmca web page? Any volunteers to provide the proper facilities? mike On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Is there a website somewhere that these sorts of things can be archived? > E.g., I just noticed that XMCA's (kinda clunky!) home page has links to > videos from 2010 and 2008 but nothing more recent. > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ > > Seems a shame for this link only to appear on Andy's page and in this email > that will soon be buried... > > Anyone have any ideas? > > -greg > > On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > In January and February, I delivered 10 lectures on *The Concepts of > CHAT* > > in Melbourne. > > I have edited them up into a series of videos, using the PowerPoint > > slides, subtitles and audience views to enhance the talking head. > > Shukla Sikder and Feiyan Chen did a great job in video recording the > whole > > thing and the quality is good. > > The concepts covered are: Action, behaviour and consciousness; Genetic > > method; unity and dichotomy; Analysis by units and germ cell; Word > > meaning and artefact-mediated action, dual stimulation; Perezhivanie and > > catharsis, social situation of development, disability/compensation; > > Concepts during childhood; Spontaneous, true and actual concepts; the > > emotions; Activity: operations, actions and activities; Object of > activity > > in Leontyev, Engestr?m and Vygotsky; Project as unit of social life. > > The videos and a link to the prescribed reading is at > > https://vimeo.com/groups/301100/ > > > > There's 10 hours of video there, so I don't expect reviews from xmca-ers, > > but anyone teaching CHAT might consider whether it meets some of your > > needs. I try to confine myself to what I know something about and as > best I > > could, stayed away from issues of Psychology and Learning Science of > which > > I am ignorant. Just the Concepts. > > > > Andy > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Thu Mar 5 14:35:22 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 16:35:22 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Little Evidence That Executive Function Interventions Boost Student Achievement In-Reply-To: References: <78.1259.415535.226122.68893773.1039@aeramail.org>, Message-ID: Message from Francine: Mike, Thanks for posting this review article. I gave ita quick read. Here's my critique of it: 1) The correlational data is strong, but proof of cause and effect is weak for outcomes measures based on standardized tests for 'normal' populations. 2) The review did not included studies of children diagnosed with attention deficit disorders. 3) A major research project in Britain was not included. If we accept these findings what we know is that there is no evidence that developing executive functions improves 'normal' children's scores on standardized achievement tests . >From what I saw the achievement tests used where the type known to correlate with IQ - card sorting, digits forward and backward. The conclusions specifically stated that the review did not look at outcome measures such as academic grades, truancy, etc. The review did not look at literacy in particular, which is the focus of many programs to develop executive functions. Excluding children diagnosed with attention deficit disorders excludes an extremely important population, where the strongest gains would be expected. > From: mcole@ucsd.edu > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 06:19:41 -0800 > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Little Evidence That Executive Function Interventions Boost Student Achievement > > Given the la la la about such interventions, journals on brain and > education, etc., this is kind of interesting. > mike > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: AERA Communications > Date: Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 6:00 AM > Subject: Little Evidence That Executive Function Interventions Boost > Student Achievement > To: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu > > > > * For Immediate Release:* > March 5, 2015 > > *Contact:* > Tony Pals, tpals@aera.net > > office: (202) 238-3235 > cell: (202) 288-9333 > Bridget Jameson, bjameson@aera.net > > office: (202) 238-3233 > > > *Study: Little Evidence That Executive Function Interventions Boost Student > Achievement* > > *WASHINGTON, D.C., March 5, 2015?*Despite growing enthusiasm among > educators and scholars about the potential of school-based executive > function interventions to significantly increase student achievement, a > federally funded meta-analysis of 25 years? worth of research finds no > conclusive evidence that developing students? executive function skills > leads to better academic performance, according to a new study published > today in *Review of Educational Research*, a peer-reviewed journal of the > American Educational Research Association. > > - VIDEO: Co-author Robin Jacob discusses key findings. > > > The meta-analysis > , > by researchers Robin Jacob of the University of Michigan and Julia > Parkinson of the American Institutes for Research, analyzed 67 studies > published over the past 25 years on the link between executive function and > achievement. The authors critically assessed whether improvements in > executive function skills?the skills related to thoughtful planning, use of > memory and attention, and ability to control impulses and resist > distractions?lead to increases in reading and math achievement, as measured > by standardized test scores, among school-age children from preschool > through high school. More than half of the studies identified by the > authors were published after 2010, reflecting the rapid increase in > interest in the topic in recent years. > > While the authors found that previous research indicated a strong > correlation between executive function and achievement, they found > ?surprisingly little evidence? that the two are causally related. > > ?There?s a lot of evidence that executive function and achievement are > highly correlated with one another, but there is not yet a resounding body > of evidence that indicates that if you changed executive functioning skills > by intervening in schools, that it would then lead to an improvement in > achievement in children,? said Jacob. ?Although investing in executive > function interventions has strong intuitive appeal, we should be wary of > investing in these often expensive programs before we have a strong > research base behind them.? > > ?Studies that explore the link between executive function and achievement > abound, but what is striking about the body of research is how few attempts > have been made to conduct rigorous analyses that would support a causal > relationship,? said Jacob. > > The authors note that few studies have controlled for characteristics such > as parental education, socioeconomic status, or IQ, although these > characteristics have been found to be associated with the development of > executive function. They found that even fewer studies have attempted > randomized trials to rigorously assess the impact of interventions. > > ?Although the link between the two may well be causal, the link needs to be > clearly established before programs designed to improve executive function > in school-age children are taken to scale,? said Jacob. > > The meta-analysis provided several findings on the correlation between > executive function and academic function: > > - The correlation is highly consistent whether measured at a single > point in time or as a predictor of future achievement. > > - The correlation is approximately the same for different age > groups?three-to-five year olds, six-to-11 year olds, and 12-to-18 year olds. > > - The correlation is about the same for achievement in both reading and > math, countering the common assumption that executive function is more > closely associated with success in math. > > - The correlation is consistent across subcomponents of executive > function (inhibition, attention control, attention shifting, and working > memory). > > *Funding* > This research was supported by a grant from the Institute of Education > Sciences at the U.S. Department of Education. > > *About AERA* > *The **American Educational Research Association (AERA) > > **is > the largest national professional organization devoted to the scientific > study of education. Founded in 1916, AERA advances knowledge about > education, encourages scholarly inquiry related to education, and promotes > the use of research to improve education and serve the public good. Find > AERA on **Facebook > > **and > **Twitter* > > *.* > > This release is available online. > > > ### > ------------------------------ > > This email was sent to mcole@weber.ucsd.edu. You are receiving this email > because of your association with AERA. Click the following link to change > your preference or opt out of AERA emails: preferences > > > American Educational Research Association > 1430 K Street, NW, Suite 1200 > Washington, DC 20005 > www.aera.net > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Mar 5 16:15:30 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 16:15:30 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [commfac] Lecturer Academic Year 2015-2016 (multiple positions) Dept. of Communication Job Reference #JPF00761 In-Reply-To: <7C515C763279BE49B195C473EB2F823B2B6FB15C@HSMBX01.AD.UCSD.EDU> References: <7C515C763279BE49B195C473EB2F823B2B6FB15C@HSMBX01.AD.UCSD.EDU> Message-ID: fyi ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Johnson, Renee Date: Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 2:05 PM Subject: [commfac] Lecturer Academic Year 2015-2016 (multiple positions) Dept. of Communication Job Reference #JPF00761 To: "commtemp@ucsd.edu" Cc: "commstaff-l@ucsd.edu" , "Horton, Silas" < shorton@ucsd.edu>, "commfac-l@ucsd.edu" *Lecturer Academic Year 2015-2016 (multiple positions) * *Reference #JPF00761* The Department of Communication (http://communication.ucsd.edu/) within the Division of Social Sciences at the University of California, San Diego is seeking to make an appointment at the Lecturer Academic Year (Unit 18-Non-Senate Faculty) level. Candidate's should have a Ph.D. (unless otherwise noted) and evidence of strong teaching experience. Responsibilities entail the effective instruction of students; teaching classes in accordance with course objectives and published schedules; advising students on academic matters and; maintaining an active interest in the advances/current thinking in her/his subject area. The Department of Communication at the University of California, San Diego is committed to academic excellence and diversity within the faculty, staff, and student body. Given that commitment, the department is interested in recruiting candidates who are committed to the highest standards of scholarship and professional activity and will make a strong and meaningful contribution to the development of a campus climate that supports equality and diversity. A complete description of the courses for which Lecturers are being sought may be found at http://communication.ucsd.edu Candidates *must identify the specific course or courses *they hope to teach when applying. Salary is commensurate with qualifications and based on University of California pay. *Application Open Date: Monday, March 9, 2015 & Application Close Date: Monday, March 30, 2015 * Submit Applications & Materials On Line: UCSD AP-On-Line-Recruit https://apol-recruit.ucsd.edu/apply/JPF00761 *Required Materials * 1. Cover Letter (Indicating courses being applied for and teaching experience relevant to course topic. If applying for COMM 146 or COMM 162 also provide proposed course topic and/or subject of "Advanced Studies") 2. CV (Short version relevant university teaching experience) 3. Teaching Evals (Within last 2 year period) 4. Applicants should summarize their past or potential contributions to diversity. For more information: http://facultyexcellence.ucsd.edu/c2d/index.html AA-EOE: The University of California is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. All qualified applicants will receive consideration for employment without regard to race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability, age or protected veteran status. Ren?e D. Johnson Academic Personnel Specialist Department of Communication #0503 Media Center and Communication Building University of California San Diego 9500 Gilman Drive, La Jolla, CA 92093-0503 Phone: (858) 534 0234 Fax: (858) 534 7315 rjohnson@ucsd.edu http://communication.ucsd.edu -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lecturer AY2015-2016.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 52908 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150305/53e890e0/attachment.pdf From ablunden@mira.net Thu Mar 5 16:23:54 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 11:23:54 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Concepts of CHAT In-Reply-To: References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> Message-ID: <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> A web page without an interested and active webmaster looking after and updating will always be a fossil. A volunteer to maintain the UCSD webpages has to be a part of the CHAT discussion AND an employee of UCSD with permissions on the server. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Now what to do about that clunky xmca web page? > Any volunteers to provide the proper facilities? > mike > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > Is there a website somewhere that these sorts of things can be > archived? > E.g., I just noticed that XMCA's (kinda clunky!) home page has > links to > videos from 2010 and 2008 but nothing more recent. > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ > > Seems a shame for this link only to appear on Andy's page and in > this email > that will soon be buried... > > Anyone have any ideas? > > -greg > > On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > In January and February, I delivered 10 lectures on *The > Concepts of CHAT* > > in Melbourne. > > I have edited them up into a series of videos, using the PowerPoint > > slides, subtitles and audience views to enhance the talking head. > > Shukla Sikder and Feiyan Chen did a great job in video recording > the whole > > thing and the quality is good. > > The concepts covered are: Action, behaviour and consciousness; > Genetic > > method; unity and dichotomy; Analysis by units and germ cell; Word > > meaning and artefact-mediated action, dual stimulation; > Perezhivanie and > > catharsis, social situation of development, disability/compensation; > > Concepts during childhood; Spontaneous, true and actual > concepts; the > > emotions; Activity: operations, actions and activities; Object > of activity > > in Leontyev, Engestr?m and Vygotsky; Project as unit of social life. > > The videos and a link to the prescribed reading is at > > https://vimeo.com/groups/301100/ > > > > There's 10 hours of video there, so I don't expect reviews from > xmca-ers, > > but anyone teaching CHAT might consider whether it meets some of > your > > needs. I try to confine myself to what I know something about > and as best I > > could, stayed away from issues of Psychology and Learning > Science of which > > I am ignorant. Just the Concepts. > > > > Andy > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Mar 5 17:22:31 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 17:22:31 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Concepts of CHAT In-Reply-To: <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> Message-ID: Any reason why xmca has to be located at LCHC? mike On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > A web page without an interested and active webmaster looking after and > updating will always be a fossil. > A volunteer to maintain the UCSD webpages has to be a part of the CHAT > discussion AND an employee of UCSD with permissions on the server. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: > >> Now what to do about that clunky xmca web page? >> Any volunteers to provide the proper facilities? >> mike >> >> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Greg Thompson > > wrote: >> >> Is there a website somewhere that these sorts of things can be >> archived? >> E.g., I just noticed that XMCA's (kinda clunky!) home page has >> links to >> videos from 2010 and 2008 but nothing more recent. >> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >> >> Seems a shame for this link only to appear on Andy's page and in >> this email >> that will soon be buried... >> >> Anyone have any ideas? >> >> -greg >> >> On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: >> >> > In January and February, I delivered 10 lectures on *The >> Concepts of CHAT* >> > in Melbourne. >> > I have edited them up into a series of videos, using the PowerPoint >> > slides, subtitles and audience views to enhance the talking head. >> > Shukla Sikder and Feiyan Chen did a great job in video recording >> the whole >> > thing and the quality is good. >> > The concepts covered are: Action, behaviour and consciousness; >> Genetic >> > method; unity and dichotomy; Analysis by units and germ cell; Word >> > meaning and artefact-mediated action, dual stimulation; >> Perezhivanie and >> > catharsis, social situation of development, disability/compensation; >> > Concepts during childhood; Spontaneous, true and actual >> concepts; the >> > emotions; Activity: operations, actions and activities; Object >> of activity >> > in Leontyev, Engestr?m and Vygotsky; Project as unit of social life. >> > The videos and a link to the prescribed reading is at >> > https://vimeo.com/groups/301100/ >> > >> > There's 10 hours of video there, so I don't expect reviews from >> xmca-ers, >> > but anyone teaching CHAT might consider whether it meets some of >> your >> > needs. I try to confine myself to what I know something about >> and as best I >> > could, stayed away from issues of Psychology and Learning >> Science of which >> > I am ignorant. Just the Concepts. >> > >> > Andy >> > -- >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> > *Andy Blunden* >> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ablunden@mira.net Thu Mar 5 18:06:31 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 13:06:31 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Concepts of CHAT In-Reply-To: References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> Message-ID: <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> It's basically a judgment about longevity, I think. Universities last forever, but sometimes the people who come after don't see the point of preserving old archives. (That's really true!). Volunteer sites, where active participants control the webpages last as long as the collective. How long will xmca live on after us? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Any reason why xmca has to be located at LCHC? > mike > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > A web page without an interested and active webmaster looking > after and updating will always be a fossil. > A volunteer to maintain the UCSD webpages has to be a part of the > CHAT discussion AND an employee of UCSD with permissions on the > server. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > mike cole wrote: > > Now what to do about that clunky xmca web page? > Any volunteers to provide the proper facilities? > mike > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Greg Thompson > > >> wrote: > > Is there a website somewhere that these sorts of things can be > archived? > E.g., I just noticed that XMCA's (kinda clunky!) home page has > links to > videos from 2010 and 2008 but nothing more recent. > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ > > Seems a shame for this link only to appear on Andy's page > and in > this email > that will soon be buried... > > Anyone have any ideas? > > -greg > > On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Andy Blunden > > >> wrote: > > > In January and February, I delivered 10 lectures on *The > Concepts of CHAT* > > in Melbourne. > > I have edited them up into a series of videos, using the > PowerPoint > > slides, subtitles and audience views to enhance the > talking head. > > Shukla Sikder and Feiyan Chen did a great job in video > recording > the whole > > thing and the quality is good. > > The concepts covered are: Action, behaviour and > consciousness; > Genetic > > method; unity and dichotomy; Analysis by units and germ > cell; Word > > meaning and artefact-mediated action, dual stimulation; > Perezhivanie and > > catharsis, social situation of development, > disability/compensation; > > Concepts during childhood; Spontaneous, true and actual > concepts; the > > emotions; Activity: operations, actions and activities; > Object > of activity > > in Leontyev, Engestr?m and Vygotsky; Project as unit of > social life. > > The videos and a link to the prescribed reading is at > > https://vimeo.com/groups/301100/ > > > > There's 10 hours of video there, so I don't expect > reviews from > xmca-ers, > > but anyone teaching CHAT might consider whether it meets > some of > your > > needs. I try to confine myself to what I know something > about > and as best I > > could, stayed away from issues of Psychology and Learning > Science of which > > I am ignorant. Just the Concepts. > > > > Andy > > -- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science > with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Mar 5 19:42:24 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 19:42:24 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Concepts of CHAT In-Reply-To: <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> Message-ID: Right, Andy. LCHC has been a major source of support for MCA because it started here. but it is an international journal, and whether it remains anchored at UCSD. The xmca discussion could or could not go on in any form imaginable. Whether or not there is sufficient interest and willingness of people to collaborate in such an effort is an open question. Like the future always is. As Alexander Luria wrote an eon ago in the last paragraph of his autobiography: "People come and go, but the creative sources of great historical events and important ideas and deeds remain." Its an optimistic view, but seems appropriate to the circumstances. mike On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > It's basically a judgment about longevity, I think. > Universities last forever, but sometimes the people who come after don't > see the point of preserving old archives. (That's really true!). > Volunteer sites, where active participants control the webpages last as > long as the collective. How long will xmca live on after us? > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: > >> Any reason why xmca has to be located at LCHC? mike >> >> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Andy Blunden > ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> A web page without an interested and active webmaster looking >> after and updating will always be a fossil. >> A volunteer to maintain the UCSD webpages has to be a part of the >> CHAT discussion AND an employee of UCSD with permissions on the >> server. >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> Now what to do about that clunky xmca web page? >> Any volunteers to provide the proper facilities? >> mike >> >> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Greg Thompson >> >> > >> wrote: >> >> Is there a website somewhere that these sorts of things can be >> archived? >> E.g., I just noticed that XMCA's (kinda clunky!) home page has >> links to >> videos from 2010 and 2008 but nothing more recent. >> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >> >> Seems a shame for this link only to appear on Andy's page >> and in >> this email >> that will soon be buried... >> >> Anyone have any ideas? >> >> -greg >> >> On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Andy Blunden >> >> >> wrote: >> >> > In January and February, I delivered 10 lectures on *The >> Concepts of CHAT* >> > in Melbourne. >> > I have edited them up into a series of videos, using the >> PowerPoint >> > slides, subtitles and audience views to enhance the >> talking head. >> > Shukla Sikder and Feiyan Chen did a great job in video >> recording >> the whole >> > thing and the quality is good. >> > The concepts covered are: Action, behaviour and >> consciousness; >> Genetic >> > method; unity and dichotomy; Analysis by units and germ >> cell; Word >> > meaning and artefact-mediated action, dual stimulation; >> Perezhivanie and >> > catharsis, social situation of development, >> disability/compensation; >> > Concepts during childhood; Spontaneous, true and actual >> concepts; the >> > emotions; Activity: operations, actions and activities; >> Object >> of activity >> > in Leontyev, Engestr?m and Vygotsky; Project as unit of >> social life. >> > The videos and a link to the prescribed reading is at >> > https://vimeo.com/groups/301100/ >> > >> > There's 10 hours of video there, so I don't expect >> reviews from >> xmca-ers, >> > but anyone teaching CHAT might consider whether it meets >> some of >> your >> > needs. I try to confine myself to what I know something >> about >> and as best I >> > could, stayed away from issues of Psychology and Learning >> Science of which >> > I am ignorant. Just the Concepts. >> > >> > Andy >> > -- >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> > *Andy Blunden* >> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> >> >> -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural >> science >> with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ablunden@mira.net Thu Mar 5 20:16:19 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 15:16:19 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Concepts of CHAT In-Reply-To: References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> Message-ID: <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> The compensation that our times gives for having melted everything into air is that Google can always find it, even if it is scattered to the four winds ... provided only that you know what you're looking for. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Right, Andy. > > LCHC has been a major source of support for MCA because it started > here. but it is an international journal, and whether it remains > anchored at UCSD. The xmca discussion > could or could not go on in any form imaginable. Whether or not there > is sufficient interest and willingness of people to collaborate in > such an effort is an open question. Like the future always is. > > As Alexander Luria wrote an eon ago in the last paragraph of his > autobiography: > > "People come and go, but the creative sources of great historical > events and important ideas and deeds remain." > > Its an optimistic view, but seems appropriate to the circumstances. > mike > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > It's basically a judgment about longevity, I think. > Universities last forever, but sometimes the people who come after > don't see the point of preserving old archives. (That's really > true!). > Volunteer sites, where active participants control the webpages > last as long as the collective. How long will xmca live on after us? > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > mike cole wrote: > > Any reason why xmca has to be located at LCHC? mike > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Andy Blunden > > >> wrote: > > A web page without an interested and active webmaster looking > after and updating will always be a fossil. > A volunteer to maintain the UCSD webpages has to be a part > of the > CHAT discussion AND an employee of UCSD with permissions > on the > server. > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > Now what to do about that clunky xmca web page? > Any volunteers to provide the proper facilities? > mike > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Greg Thompson > > > > > >>> wrote: > > Is there a website somewhere that these sorts of > things can be > archived? > E.g., I just noticed that XMCA's (kinda clunky!) > home page has > links to > videos from 2010 and 2008 but nothing more recent. > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ > > Seems a shame for this link only to appear on > Andy's page > and in > this email > that will soon be buried... > > Anyone have any ideas? > > -greg > > On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Andy Blunden > > > > >>> wrote: > > > In January and February, I delivered 10 lectures > on *The > Concepts of CHAT* > > in Melbourne. > > I have edited them up into a series of videos, > using the > PowerPoint > > slides, subtitles and audience views to enhance the > talking head. > > Shukla Sikder and Feiyan Chen did a great job in > video > recording > the whole > > thing and the quality is good. > > The concepts covered are: Action, behaviour and > consciousness; > Genetic > > method; unity and dichotomy; Analysis by units > and germ > cell; Word > > meaning and artefact-mediated action, dual > stimulation; Perezhivanie and > > catharsis, social situation of development, > disability/compensation; > > Concepts during childhood; Spontaneous, true > and actual > concepts; the > > emotions; Activity: operations, actions and > activities; > Object > of activity > > in Leontyev, Engestr?m and Vygotsky; Project as > unit of > social life. > > The videos and a link to the prescribed reading > is at > > https://vimeo.com/groups/301100/ > > > > There's 10 hours of video there, so I don't expect > reviews from > xmca-ers, > > but anyone teaching CHAT might consider whether > it meets > some of > your > > needs. I try to confine myself to what I know > something > about > and as best I > > could, stayed away from issues of Psychology and > Learning > Science of which > > I am ignorant. Just the Concepts. > > > > Andy > > -- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as > a natural science > with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science > with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > From djwdoc@yahoo.com Thu Mar 5 23:41:43 2015 From: djwdoc@yahoo.com (Douglas Williams) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 07:41:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hyper-text In-Reply-To: <8E0BA9EA-52BA-450C-87B9-2837BAD13563@gmail.com> References: <8E0BA9EA-52BA-450C-87B9-2837BAD13563@gmail.com> Message-ID: <661310901.5793516.1425627703505.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi-- Well, I could find the turns--more perhaps than was intended, for it speaks to me in many voices--so I will take up the talking stick again, if only to pose my question more clearly. The talking stick is a common symbol of being granted the right to speak to a council. But more than that, it was an embodiment of shared community beliefs--literally the narrative of humanity, being carried by the speaker as a magical totem of power of that community's experiences, as the speaker added to that narrative: The ornamentation of each stick all have meaning. In the LakotahTradition, red is for life, yellow is for knowledge, blue is forprayer and wisdom, white is for spirit, purple is for healing, orangeis for feeling kinship with all living things, black is for clarityand focus.The type of feathers and hide used on a Talking Stick are veryimportant as well. The Answering Feather is usually an Eagle Feather,which represents high ideals, truth as viewed from the expansiveeye of the eagle, and the freedom that comes from speaking totaltruth to the best of one's ability. The Answering Feather can alsobe the feather of a Turkey, the Peace Eagle of the south, whichbrings peaceful attitudes as well as the give and take necessaryin successful completion of disputes. In the Tribe that see Owlas good Medicine, the Owl feather may also be used to stop deceptionfrom entering the Sacred Space of the Council.The skins, hair or hides used in making a Talking Stick bringsthe abilities, talents, gifts and medicine of those creatures-beingsto council in a variety of ways. Buffalo brings abundance; Elk bringsphysical fitness and stamina; deer brings gentleness; rabbit bringsthe ability to listen with big ears; the hair from a horse's tailor mane brings perseverance and adds connection to the earth andto the spirits of the wind. If an illness of heart, mind, spirit,or body has affected the group gathering, snake skin may be wrappedaround the Talking Stick so that healing and transmuting of thosepoisons can occur. The Talking Stick is the tool that teaches eachof us to honor the Sacred Point of View of every living creature. These powers of the objects and creatures in the world around us, and the narratives of their being and our interactions with them, are in part in the associated characteristics of the parts, signs of these things whose presence invokes the whole. Pseudoconcepts, perhaps; thinking in complexes, as Vygotsky says, and something that we want the child to grow out of, and into the world of thought. But the really interesting thing for me that cognitive linguistics particularly explores is the degree to which these shared complexes--not necessarily verbal at all--underlie so thoroughly verbal interactions that it literally becomes impossible to imagine spoken or written speech existing without the network of social interactions and experiences that form the substrate of speech. Between the idiosyncratic complexes of Luria's mnemonist and the shattered complexes of Luria's heroic solder, attempting to link back together the patterns of associations that turn images and words into the instruments of metaphor and metonymy that are the warp and woof of words and ideas, there is a public thing, a common human creation of meaning, that I would like to see explored more, and perhaps that has been explored more in studies of which I'm ignorant--which is very likely. I have a feeling Luria's friend Eisenstein, with whom he interacted during Eisenstein's years of searching for a means of evoking the understanding of difficult ideas through images drawing on complexes, in part inspired Luria's interest in a man whose complexes were so rich and unique, and a man whose complexes were impoverished by traumatic brain injury; one man had too many forms of montage occurring simultaneously--a mind exploding with collisions--and the other had a mind that struggled to link hammers to nails, or what the word was for the image that flashed in his mind, or what the word meant that he could say and shape on his tongue, yet not call forth the image it invoked. And while I am deeply aware of a sense of intruding nonsequiturs at the symposium, nonetheless I feel a desire to drag in the world of complexes, because of their continuing power. It's been said of music that "the further music departs from the dance, the less musical it becomes." I have a feeling that is true of language, too, because it is the shared complexes that inform comprehension of meaning; and while my work takes me in other directions these days, in writing about the allegedly rigorous world of structured queries, I know at the core that these structured queries are meaningless without a deep understanding of intangible relationships. Silicon stones and precisely structured languages in computer cores only speak meaningfully when they are inhabited by the ghosts of fur, feathers, communities, dreams, inheritances, implications, and aggregations that are created by the interactions of humans around shared objects and activities.? So among the assembled learned here, I want to change the subject a moment from learning and words, to see if you know of new or old research in CHAT that explores the substrate of culture and its interaction with thought--perhaps papers, or a book or two, or a thought or two pulled out of the shadows. I think this world of complexes is something that interested Vygotsky too, beyond being a dominant phase of childhood development or primitive culture, and is a subject that in different circumstances, Vygotsky, Luria, and Eisenstein might have explored more--and perhaps had explored more in lost work, or work carried out by others--though in what scraps I've stumbled on here and there, what explorations there are seem shattered as Zasetsky's world was, occupying different disciplines, with linkages between them seen laboriously and soon forgotten--and these days, it seems, not most commonly discussed in the CHAT world. Yet the clearest articulation of these things begins with Thinking and Speech, and suggestive things such as Luria's books about the extremes of mind, which inform by example the world of complexes within which we exist, suggest to me that there is more to be found than I would know about, given my relatively hobbyist interest these days. Is there? So there it is, and the stick moves on. ?Regards,Doug From: HENRY SHONERD To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 8:31 AM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hyper-text Annalisa, I couldn?t find the turns between you and Doug regarding the ?talking stick?. Be that as it may, I was thinking that such an object would be like the one described in this little grad paper written by a Navajo teacher enrolled in a course on ESL methodology I taught for the Unversity of New Mexico a few years back. Henry > On Feb 27, 2015, at 9:13 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > In response to Doug, I'm thinking of the question (? la Jeopardy) > > What is a talking stick? > > :) From djwdoc@yahoo.com Fri Mar 6 00:13:22 2015 From: djwdoc@yahoo.com (Douglas Williams) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 08:13:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1130773622.5883745.1425629602776.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I'll interrupt the dialogue a moment (now that I've written my little piece) to say that this is kind of an answer to my question, yet not as systematic--not that it could be in this form--as one can find elsewhere, for example, Lakoff's Women, Fire,and Dangerous Things, or Turner's Death is the Mother of Beauty; Cog Ling. has done a lot of systemizing in this area.?But I'm not aware of a specific study in this field, beyond Vygotsky himself in The Psychology of Art, exploring the interaction of art, popular culture, and community in--let's say--dialogic self-pedagogy. Yet communities telling complex stories about themselves in symbolic interactions, and being transformed by them, is an awfully interesting topic. I apologize for the exhibitionistic interruption, though if it turns up a reference or two, perhaps that might be of shared interest... Regards,Doug From: mike cole To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 8:35 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds I have noted the same phenomenon, David. Sometimes we get into Vygotskian chaining but then the conversation may (or may not) become around again, and we actually see a spiral of development. My colleagues at UCSD have often done performance art that is collective...... for example, as part of a highly contentious protest against rascism at a frat party. The Occupy movement has/had (?)? elements of performance art. Linking the issue to an individualist or collectivist theory of human consciousness was very helpful to me. mike On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 1:58 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Sometimes xmca reiterates. > > This isn't always a good thing; it's often because someone (usually me) > wants to say the same thing a second time and just can't come up with a > better way of saying it. But sometimes it's a good thing, either becuase > the list as a whole has forgotten something it once knew or (better) there > are new people who weren't here for the first part of the conversation, or > (best of all) a thread has really turned into a kind of Moebius strip and > is doubling back on itself, but in a way that brings something that was > only implicit out and makes it explicit. > > All of which is an excuse for me to recycle the following posting, which I > wrote many years ago when my friend the performance artist Shu Yang was > last in Seoul. > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2010_11.dir/msg00242.html > > I think the point I'm trying to make here--but it is implicit and I will > try to make it a little more explicit--is that we should have predicted all > the sensationalist and EXHIBITIONISTIC excesses of today's performance art, > simply from the fact that performance art is ART, and art in a bourgeois > society will inevitably centre on the all-conquering, all-absorbing, > all-obscuring individual. So today performance art sees the body as its > main asset, but by doing this it has turned the body into its main > obstacle. Seeing performance art as a projection of performance, the body > denies performance art as an injection of art. > > If performance art wants to be art and not just performance, then it has to > grasp the basic Vygotskyan principle that art is not the socialization of > bodily feelings, but on the contrary, the individuation of a social > feeling. That's what made Shu Yang's performance art, and the other > performances mere performance. > > Reiterate xmca...sometimes. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 4 March 2015 at 02:51, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > Larry, > > I am mashing up serveral themes lately in the chat braid: > > Style and authenticity: Are they compatible? I am thinking about the > > discussion of performance art. Annalisa posted a radio podcast about > > professional wrestling. Is it fake, and if so, so what? it?s just > > entertainment. And makes lots of money. Your three definitions of FREEDOM > > come to mind (boiled way down, leaving just the salt): 1) autonomy, 2) > > expression of AUTHENTIC self, 3) collaborative/creaiive hoping. So, I see > > PLAY saving the day in that third, hopeful space, that sweet spot. Where > > people play at being both stylish and authentic. That would never go out > of > > style. That would be vital. And wouldn?t be dreadfully boring. > > > > I look back at the previous paragraph and thought I might try to unpack > > it, but that would be even more arrogant than having written it in the > > first place. So, let?s just leave it there. Play with it. Come on, peeps, > > come out and play!! Snow has melted here in the Break Bad City, all mud > > puddle luscious. We?re high desert, so this is a real treat. Sorry can?t > > send some of our mud to Mike in San Diego. > > Henry > > > > > > > > > On Mar 3, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > > > Henry, > > > Let's follow further the opening comment of the song [this is an > > "approach > > > that has gone out of favour in the scientific world]? Poetry as > > "metaphor" > > > but not "mere" metaphor as the handmaiden of the "realistic" and the > > > "conceptual"? Rather "metaphor AS realistic" and also the reciprocal > "the > > > realistic AS metaphorical"? Chemicals as personifications > > > [anthro-morphisms] "attract" each other. > > > > > > I am "implicating" metaphor and valences AND rational conceptions as > > equal > > > "partners" in "approaching" the notion of life as "vitality" [another > > > notion that has gone out of fashion? I am suggesting that this "theme" > of > > > "life" as vital/dead seems to "play" out and also > > > "play" within? internal/external "dramas". > > > Daniel Stern most recent book is on the notion of "vitality"? Also > > > Heidegger's notion of "care and concern". > > > > > > Just saying - > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 9:43 PM, HENRY SHONERD > > wrote: > > > > > >> Larry and Mike, > > >> I think you guys are on to something. Thank goodness for valence, the > > salt > > >> of the earth according to the McGarrigles: > > >> > > >> KATE & ANNA MCGARRIGLE > > >> "NaCl" > > >> Just a little atom of Chlorine, valence minus one > > >> Swimming through the sea, digging the scene, just having fun > > >> She's not worried about the shape or size of her outside shell > > >> It's fun to ionize > > >> Just a little atom of Cl with an unfilled shell > > >> But somewhere in that sea lurks handsome Sodium > > >> With enough electrons on his outside shell plus that extra one > > >> Somewhere in this deep blue sea there's a negative > > >> For my extra energy > > >> Yes, somewhere in this foam my positive will find a home > > >> Then unsuspecting Chlorine felt a magnetic pull > > >> She looked down and her outside shell was full > > >> Sodium cried, "What a gas, be my bride > > >> And I'll change your name from Chlorine to chloride!" > > >> Now the sea evaporates to make the clouds for the rain and snow > > >> Leaving her chemical compounds in the absence of H2O > > >> But the crystals that wash upon the shore are happy ones > > >> So, if you never thought before > > >> Think of the love that you eat when you salt you meat! > > >> > > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI < > > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI> > > >> > > >> Henry > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 8:47 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Mike, > > >>> I will follow further in Simmels and Urs Furher's footsteps as this > > >>> theme also brings in Ernst Boesch's theory of "symbolic action" which > > was > > >>> developed as a notion that all phenomena [including action] have both > > >>> objective and symbolic "aspects". Boesch wrote: > > >>> > > >>> "This 'pervasiveness' of symbolism may be easy to grasp for a > > >> psychologist > > >>> with psychoanalytic experience or with strong artistic tastes; in my > > >> case, > > >>> however, although I believe myself to have a bit of both, this > insight > > >> had > > >>> much more 'rational' roots. ... I trace its inception back to the > 1963 > > >>> article 'Raum und Zeit als Valenzsysteme', in which I formulated, for > > the > > >>> first time, the close *interrelatedness of 'valence' *[LP- > worth/value > > ] > > >>> and 'structure': the conceptual structuring of space depends, I said, > > >> upon > > >>> the location of valences [worth/values] - it was the *'wish to > return' > > >> *which > > >>> led to the specification and stability of *places.*"? [cited in > > "reasons > > >>> For a Symbolic Concept of Action" in Culture and Psychology 1997 > > >>> Volume 3(3): pages 423-431] > > >>> > > >>> I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all > > >>> following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" [multiple > > >> worths > > >>> and? values] as symbolic actions. > > >>> > > >>> Larry > > >>> > > >>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:23 PM, mike cole wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Amazing "coincidence" Larry--- I just wrote to Urs who I have not > > >>>> corresponded with for years as a result of going through his book on > > >>>> cultivating minds. It has a chapter on behavior > > >>>> settings as media for promoting children's development that has me > > >>>> re-thinking a number of issues. Among other things, there is a very > > >>>> interesting discussion of Roger Barker's research program. Very > worth > > >> while > > >>>> > > >>>> I could not open that file you sent, but I found the link to the > > journal > > >>>> article. Its here: > > >>>> > > >>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ja93v15n1.PDF > > >>>> > > >>>> There are a number of other interesting/relevant articles there. > "The > > >> sound > > >>>> of the violin" is a favorite. > > >>>> > > >>>> Thanks for reminding us of Simmel. > > >>>> Today, March 1, was his birthday! > > >>>> Coincidence? > > >>>> mike > > >>>> > > >>>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Larry Purss > > >> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Mike, > > >>>>> I continued to explore Urs Furher's book that you mentioned on > Simmel > > >>>> that > > >>>>> would be potentially beneficial to follow. In my explorations I > came > > >>>> across > > >>>>> this article on the metaphor of "traces" or "footprints" in the > XMCA > > >>>>> archives. It was written in 1993 and is an interesting perspective > on > > >> the > > >>>>> metaphor of cultivation AS FOOTPRINTS.? It is the third article in > > the > > >>>>> newsletter. > > >>>>> Urs is pointing to the reciprocal processes of "internalizing" and > > >>>>> "externalizing" the inner "affective sense" of "place" through > > >> attachment > > >>>>> to "home" and "vehicle" as concrete ways to form one's identity > > through > > >>>>> attachment/security needs and? autonomy needs. > > >>>>> Larry > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> -- > > >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > >> object > > >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > >>>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From djwdoc@yahoo.com Fri Mar 6 01:03:27 2015 From: djwdoc@yahoo.com (Douglas Williams) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 09:03:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: <1425425795854.91811@unm.edu> References: <1425425795854.91811@unm.edu> Message-ID: <168221934.5803891.1425632607229.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi-- For example, Abbie Hoffman throwing real and fake money onto the floor of the NYSE trading floor, was a political act, but it could be easily be performance art. Much of what he did was not unlike performance art. I think I would say that it was precisely performance art, which is to say that it was a kind of theater. If art is effectively art at all, then it is always a kind of political speech--not simply in an agitprop way, but in that it is about us--citizens in the city, and it speaks to us to tell us who we were, who we are, and whither we are going. The Oresteia is great art--and at the same time deeply political, in that it defines a certain idea about the nature of that society that produced the narrative, and selected that play as the instrument of Athens's contemplation of itself, in the festival that honored Dionysius, the god of submersing individuality into a collective whole. For art to have meaning, it has to touch the strings of images and behaviors and beliefs shared or understood in a society, which tend to be fairly obvious when viewed out of the context of sharing that system of identity, even in a landscape. (Critical Theory). Art only becomes art if it plays upon these strings of shared complexes, and the narratives around them: narratives of money exchanges and greed, of justice and injustice, of the good life, or the misspent life, or whatever themes the narrative presents in images, actions, or words. Great art usually is an advocate for or against a way of seeing, a way of feeling, a way of being. And by capturing us within its forms, we are made to see and feel things that we may not wish to see or feel; we are invaded by images, sounds, feelings. Art began as, and remains, though we pretend otherwise, and treat it as a commodity, a kind of mystery cult of possession. When we stop and engage with art, to the degree to which it evokes the complexes within which we move, all too often thoughtlessly, we find ourselves lost in identity with the themes of our society, and at the same time deeply in touch with ourselves or confronted by ourselves--and in this opening up of ourselves, we are reshaped and remolded by the experience, in lesser or greater ways. That is its power and its mystery, and its eternal value. Regards,Doug ? From: Annalisa Aguilar To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 3:36 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds David, You are right. There will be on a listserv reiterations, which is always a good thing. Not sometimes. And disagreements can also reiterate, which seems to be happening here. Is that a good thing? Not sure. I stand by my original statement which was something like:? I am not able to group all performance artists into one group and reduce them as"doing" all the same things, and then call it stupid. I cannot do that. I can't do that with painters, with musicians, with photographers, with filmmakers, with sculptors, with printmakers, with dancers. You can, and you are, and you are free to do that. I'd like to say that calling something NOT ART, or someone NOT AN ARTIST is a predictable process of dismissing people as unqualified to do art. Just like dismissing marginalized people has not having a voice in political process. To comment about the argument about "What is Quality in Art?" is also a Very Old Theme in Art History, and Clement Greenberg is your guy for that. If you want to get into the conversations that have already been discussed on this you could perhaps visit Linda Nochlin's article "Why have there been no great women artists?" http://f.hypotheses.org/wp-content/blogs.dir/512/files/2012/01/whynogreatwomenartists_4.pdf I might choose to replace "women artists" with any other kind of artist who doesn't adhere to what is a "viable" artist in the hegemony of Western Art history and the essay would probably work, because it too is dealing with "What is the Quality of Art?" but from the standpoint of asking "WHO IS IT who says what is quality and what is NOT quality?". This essay was published in 1971, by the way. In any case, I actually see a value to what performance artists do. I will not change my position, no matter how much you try to discredit the art AND it's ok that you don't like it. That doesn't bother me at all. Performance artists are working in a space of non-commodification. I like that. They are using their bodies in their artwork, but they can elect not to do that. It's not a requirement. But I find that in the performance artists that do use their bodies there is a great deal of courage required and personal risk. It's not just about sensationalism, there is an activist mentality there. I like that too. For example, Abbie Hoffman throwing real and fake money onto the floor of the NYSE trading floor, was a political act, but it could be easily be performance art. Much of what he did was not unlike performance art. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbie_Hoffman Much of activism _performed_ in a creative way IS performance art. Which means NOT ONLY artists in your so-called bourgeois venues can do it. Perhaps THE POINT that artists who literally masturbate in their performances IS to CRITICALLY COMMENT upon what you actually don't like about narcissistic performance. But see, one would have to read up on Art History to know this. Everything requires a context. Kind regards, Annalisa From djwdoc@yahoo.com Fri Mar 6 01:54:49 2015 From: djwdoc@yahoo.com (Douglas Williams) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 09:54:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1407905741.5811636.1425635689915.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi-- I want to highlight this (should be going to sleep, but I've been pulled in. _________ "Red is good color back in China. But it is also blood color, and it is flag color and it is revolution and it is earthquake, Sichuan earthquake. So many bloody stories. And today we hear other stories, bloody stories." ? Then he got down and used his face and body to PRINT the marks on the map, and finally smeared the marks all over his face, so that he looked like a Xi'an opera singer. And that was the end of the performance. ? Why is this performance art? Vygotsky says that it is not the case that individual bodies create individual minds and that individual minds then create individual emotions and when these are socialized they become art. ? It's much truer to say the exactly the opposite: there is a body of emotion which is already objective, already social, already cultural. And it's those emotions, and those alone, which the artist has to incarnate and individuate and in so doing reconceptualize. That's the peculiar "aesthetic contradiction" we find in performance art, or at least in performance ART. ? ___ It is art in that he represents China, in other words. His performance piece, to borrow from Hamlet, is the play in which he seeks to capture the conscience of his audience; he carries on his body the burden of their stories, of China's past. Stepping outside of his performance, when one of his audience members chooses to wear the Claudius mask, he provides a critical analysis. But the only part I object to is this:_________ Now, if that were ALL there was to the performance, then we would have to say it was a quite typical example of preconceptual thinking: a chain complex, like those described in Chapter Five, and like those shown in Paula's video _________ BUT: At what point is a chain complex merely a chain complex? "NaCl" has a philosophical argument: Its heroine, Chorine, is going to find herself irresistibly drawn to the opposite sex; that's chemistry. You (the heroine, Chlorine) are going to change your name, and your whole being is going to be lost in this new identity. And then you die, but out of you is born crystals of salt. Is this a tragedy? No, because this is the cycle of nature; and in a transformation out of the world of chemistry to our world, we are asked to be reminded of the love in these salt crystals that we ingest--it is we now who are become the salt of the earth, the support of our social order, being asked to live and love. That is poetry, not just complexes chained without an underlying thought. There is an argument there, an intention that is greater than the parts of nonsense from which it is built. Akira Kurusawa, in his great movie, Late Spring, tells the story of an old man whose daughter will not marry her fiance, because she cannot bear to leave her father alone, uncared for. He tells her that he is getting married, and asks her to leave his house, because two women cannot run the same house, and he wants her to make her new life with her husband, as he will make his new life with his wife. She apologizes to him for being selfish to want to stay with him. And then he tells a friend, after she has gone, that he only pretended he was getting married, and that he did not want to see his daughter deprived of a husband and a full life in caring for him. In what Kurusawa's best-known critic calls "nondiegetic" inserts, Kurusawa shows a succession of images of a nearby hillside, in which there are a few old trees among younger trees. As the film progresses, the old trees disappear, until only a very few remain. That, I would say, is diegesis in action, a chorus in the form of a montage over time. These are narratives that take on the same basic story from two different perspectives, each telling about life and meaning in the face of mortality. Each of them uses montages of collision to create new meaning out of parts that did not contain that meaning before their juxtaposition. And then there is this kind of poem: Side ShowVery sturdy rogues. Several have exploited your worlds. With no needs, and in no hurry to make use of their brilliant faculties and their knowledge of your conveniences. What ripe men! Eyes vacant like the summer night, red and black, tricolored, steel studded with gold stars; faces distorted, leaden, blanched, ablaze; burlesque hoarsenesses! The cruel strut of flashy finery! Some are young, - how would they look on Cherubin? - endowed with terrifying voices and some dangerous resources. They are sent buggering in the town, tricked out with nauseating luxury.O the most violent Paradise of the furious grimace! Not to be compared with your Fakirs and other theatrical buffooneries. In improvised costumes like something out of a bad dream, they enact heroic romances of brigands and of demigods, more inspiriting than history or religions have ever been. Chinese, Hottentots, gypsies, simpletons, hyenas, Molochs, old dementias, sinister demons, they combine popular maternal turns with bestial poses and caresses. They would interpret new plays, "romantic" songs. Master jugglers, they transform place and persons and have recourse to magnetic comedy. Eyes flame, blood sings, bones swell, tears and red trickles flow, Their clowning or their terror lasts a minute or entire months.I alone have the key to this savage side show. Regards,Doug From: David Kellogg To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 1:58 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "cultivating Minds Sometimes xmca reiterates. This isn't always a good thing; it's often because someone (usually me) wants to say the same thing a second time and just can't come up with a better way of saying it. But sometimes it's a good thing, either becuase the list as a whole has forgotten something it once knew or (better) there are new people who weren't here for the first part of the conversation, or (best of all) a thread has really turned into a kind of Moebius strip and is doubling back on itself, but in a way that brings something that was only implicit out and makes it explicit. All of which is an excuse for me to recycle the following posting, which I wrote many years ago when my friend the performance artist Shu Yang was last in Seoul. http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2010_11.dir/msg00242.html I think the point I'm trying to make here--but it is implicit and I will try to make it a little more explicit--is that we should have predicted all the sensationalist and EXHIBITIONISTIC excesses of today's performance art, simply from the fact that performance art is ART, and art in a bourgeois society will inevitably centre on the all-conquering, all-absorbing, all-obscuring individual. So today performance art sees the body as its main asset, but by doing this it has turned the body into its main obstacle. Seeing performance art as a projection of performance, the body denies performance art as an injection of art. If performance art wants to be art and not just performance, then it has to grasp the basic Vygotskyan principle that art is not the socialization of bodily feelings, but on the contrary, the individuation of a social feeling. That's what made Shu Yang's performance art, and the other performances mere performance. Reiterate xmca...sometimes. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 4 March 2015 at 02:51, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Larry, > I am mashing up serveral themes lately in the chat braid: > Style and authenticity: Are they compatible? I am thinking about the > discussion of performance art. Annalisa posted a radio podcast about > professional wrestling. Is it fake, and if so, so what? it?s just > entertainment. And makes lots of money. Your three definitions of FREEDOM > come to mind (boiled way down, leaving just the salt): 1) autonomy, 2) > expression of AUTHENTIC self, 3) collaborative/creaiive hoping. So, I see > PLAY saving the day in that third, hopeful space, that sweet spot. Where > people play at being both stylish and authentic. That would never go out of > style. That would be vital. And wouldn?t be dreadfully boring. > > I look back at the previous paragraph and thought I might try to unpack > it, but that would be even more arrogant than having written it in the > first place. So, let?s just leave it there. Play with it. Come on, peeps, > come out and play!! Snow has melted here in the Break Bad City, all mud > puddle luscious. We?re high desert, so this is a real treat. Sorry can?t > send some of our mud to Mike in San Diego. > Henry > > > > > On Mar 3, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > Henry, > > Let's follow further the opening comment of the song [this is an > "approach > > that has gone out of favour in the scientific world]? Poetry as > "metaphor" > > but not "mere" metaphor as the handmaiden of the "realistic" and the > > "conceptual"? Rather "metaphor AS realistic" and also the reciprocal "the > > realistic AS metaphorical"? Chemicals as personifications > > [anthro-morphisms] "attract" each other. > > > > I am "implicating" metaphor and valences AND rational conceptions as > equal > > "partners" in "approaching" the notion of life as "vitality" [another > > notion that has gone out of fashion? I am suggesting that this "theme" of > > "life" as vital/dead seems to "play" out and also > > "play" within? internal/external "dramas". > > Daniel Stern most recent book is on the notion of "vitality"? Also > > Heidegger's notion of "care and concern". > > > > Just saying - > > > > Larry > > > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 9:43 PM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > >> Larry and Mike, > >> I think you guys are on to something. Thank goodness for valence, the > salt > >> of the earth according to the McGarrigles: > >> > >> KATE & ANNA MCGARRIGLE > >> "NaCl" > >> Just a little atom of Chlorine, valence minus one > >> Swimming through the sea, digging the scene, just having fun > >> She's not worried about the shape or size of her outside shell > >> It's fun to ionize > >> Just a little atom of Cl with an unfilled shell > >> But somewhere in that sea lurks handsome Sodium > >> With enough electrons on his outside shell plus that extra one > >> Somewhere in this deep blue sea there's a negative > >> For my extra energy > >> Yes, somewhere in this foam my positive will find a home > >> Then unsuspecting Chlorine felt a magnetic pull > >> She looked down and her outside shell was full > >> Sodium cried, "What a gas, be my bride > >> And I'll change your name from Chlorine to chloride!" > >> Now the sea evaporates to make the clouds for the rain and snow > >> Leaving her chemical compounds in the absence of H2O > >> But the crystals that wash upon the shore are happy ones > >> So, if you never thought before > >> Think of the love that you eat when you salt you meat! > >> > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI < > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTzawl3OmI> > >> > >> Henry > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 8:47 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > >>> > >>> Mike, > >>> I will follow further in Simmels and Urs Furher's footsteps as this > >>> theme also brings in Ernst Boesch's theory of "symbolic action" which > was > >>> developed as a notion that all phenomena [including action] have both > >>> objective and symbolic "aspects". Boesch wrote: > >>> > >>> "This 'pervasiveness' of symbolism may be easy to grasp for a > >> psychologist > >>> with psychoanalytic experience or with strong artistic tastes; in my > >> case, > >>> however, although I believe myself to have a bit of both, this insight > >> had > >>> much more 'rational' roots. ... I trace its inception back to the 1963 > >>> article 'Raum und Zeit als Valenzsysteme', in which I formulated, for > the > >>> first time, the close *interrelatedness of 'valence' *[LP- worth/value > ] > >>> and 'structure': the conceptual structuring of space depends, I said, > >> upon > >>> the location of valences [worth/values] - it was the *'wish to return' > >> *which > >>> led to the specification and stability of *places.*"? [cited in > "reasons > >>> For a Symbolic Concept of Action" in Culture and Psychology 1997 > >>> Volume 3(3): pages 423-431] > >>> > >>> I am suggesting that Simmel, Urs Furher, and Ernst Boesch were all > >>> following in the footsteps of the concept of "polyvalence" [multiple > >> worths > >>> and? values] as symbolic actions. > >>> > >>> Larry > >>> > >>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:23 PM, mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>>> Amazing "coincidence" Larry--- I just wrote to Urs who I have not > >>>> corresponded with for years as a result of going through his book on > >>>> cultivating minds. It has a chapter on behavior > >>>> settings as media for promoting children's development that has me > >>>> re-thinking a number of issues. Among other things, there is a very > >>>> interesting discussion of Roger Barker's research program. Very worth > >> while > >>>> > >>>> I could not open that file you sent, but I found the link to the > journal > >>>> article. Its here: > >>>> > >>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ja93v15n1.PDF > >>>> > >>>> There are a number of other interesting/relevant articles there. "The > >> sound > >>>> of the violin" is a favorite. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks for reminding us of Simmel. > >>>> Today, March 1, was his birthday! > >>>> Coincidence? > >>>> mike > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Larry Purss > >> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Mike, > >>>>> I continued to explore Urs Furher's book that you mentioned on Simmel > >>>> that > >>>>> would be potentially beneficial to follow. In my explorations I came > >>>> across > >>>>> this article on the metaphor of "traces" or "footprints" in the XMCA > >>>>> archives. It was written in 1993 and is an interesting perspective on > >> the > >>>>> metaphor of cultivation AS FOOTPRINTS.? It is the third article in > the > >>>>> newsletter. > >>>>> Urs is pointing to the reciprocal processes of "internalizing" and > >>>>> "externalizing" the inner "affective sense" of "place" through > >> attachment > >>>>> to "home" and "vehicle" as concrete ways to form one's identity > through > >>>>> attachment/security needs and? autonomy needs. > >>>>> Larry > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >> object > >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>> > >> > >> > > > From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Fri Mar 6 02:33:26 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 10:33:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?You_can_catch=2C_but_you_can=E2=80=99t_contain_me?= Message-ID: <664379226.6686922.1425638007076.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Sonya Braxton.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 76682 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150306/d8ded41b/attachment.bin From rstarowi@berkeley.edu Fri Mar 6 07:00:02 2015 From: rstarowi@berkeley.edu (UCB) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 07:00:02 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Concepts of CHAT In-Reply-To: <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> Message-ID: <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> I'm Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 5, 2015, at 8:16 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > The compensation that our times gives for having melted everything into air is that Google can always find it, even if it is scattered to the four winds ... provided only that you know what you're looking for. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: >> Right, Andy. >> >> LCHC has been a major source of support for MCA because it started here. but it is an international journal, and whether it remains anchored at UCSD. The xmca discussion >> could or could not go on in any form imaginable. Whether or not there is sufficient interest and willingness of people to collaborate in such an effort is an open question. Like the future always is. >> >> As Alexander Luria wrote an eon ago in the last paragraph of his autobiography: >> >> "People come and go, but the creative sources of great historical events and important ideas and deeds remain." >> Its an optimistic view, but seems appropriate to the circumstances. >> mike >> >> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >> >> It's basically a judgment about longevity, I think. >> Universities last forever, but sometimes the people who come after >> don't see the point of preserving old archives. (That's really >> true!). >> Volunteer sites, where active participants control the webpages >> last as long as the collective. How long will xmca live on after us? >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> Any reason why xmca has to be located at LCHC? mike >> >> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Andy Blunden >> >> >> wrote: >> >> A web page without an interested and active webmaster looking >> after and updating will always be a fossil. >> A volunteer to maintain the UCSD webpages has to be a part >> of the >> CHAT discussion AND an employee of UCSD with permissions >> on the >> server. >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> Now what to do about that clunky xmca web page? >> Any volunteers to provide the proper facilities? >> mike >> >> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Greg Thompson >> > >> > > >> > >> > >>> wrote: >> >> Is there a website somewhere that these sorts of >> things can be >> archived? >> E.g., I just noticed that XMCA's (kinda clunky!) >> home page has >> links to >> videos from 2010 and 2008 but nothing more recent. >> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >> >> Seems a shame for this link only to appear on >> Andy's page >> and in >> this email >> that will soon be buried... >> >> Anyone have any ideas? >> >> -greg >> >> On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Andy Blunden >> >> > >> > > >>> wrote: >> >> > In January and February, I delivered 10 lectures >> on *The >> Concepts of CHAT* >> > in Melbourne. >> > I have edited them up into a series of videos, >> using the >> PowerPoint >> > slides, subtitles and audience views to enhance the >> talking head. >> > Shukla Sikder and Feiyan Chen did a great job in >> video >> recording >> the whole >> > thing and the quality is good. >> > The concepts covered are: Action, behaviour and >> consciousness; >> Genetic >> > method; unity and dichotomy; Analysis by units >> and germ >> cell; Word >> > meaning and artefact-mediated action, dual >> stimulation; Perezhivanie and >> > catharsis, social situation of development, >> disability/compensation; >> > Concepts during childhood; Spontaneous, true >> and actual >> concepts; the >> > emotions; Activity: operations, actions and >> activities; >> Object >> of activity >> > in Leontyev, Engestr?m and Vygotsky; Project as >> unit of >> social life. >> > The videos and a link to the prescribed reading >> is at >> > https://vimeo.com/groups/301100/ >> > >> > There's 10 hours of video there, so I don't expect >> reviews from >> xmca-ers, >> > but anyone teaching CHAT might consider whether >> it meets >> some of >> your >> > needs. I try to confine myself to what I know >> something >> about >> and as best I >> > could, stayed away from issues of Psychology and >> Learning >> Science of which >> > I am ignorant. Just the Concepts. >> > >> > Andy >> > -- >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > *Andy Blunden* >> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> >> >> -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as >> a natural science >> with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science >> with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From ablunden@mira.net Fri Mar 6 16:07:21 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2015 11:07:21 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Concepts of CHAT In-Reply-To: <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> Would be goods to see the rest of your message, Renee. Mike, here's what I think. Leave xmca where it is. If some future leader of LCHC wants to delete it, that will have to be handled at the time. To develop the xmca community, I suggest you take up an offer you have had for a website on a non-university server and a technical manager who can just issue server permissions or something. Such a role which would be inherited by whoever took over the responsibility for the server in the future. Fees would be modest in this instance and easily raised through this list. All xmca participants would be offered a blog on this site. blogging is something which is verging on being a skill which everyone should have, and it is very flexible. If half a dozen xmca participants could operate blogs then we'd have something. Nominate an xmca-er - someone like Huw, to manage the coordination of the pages, for example, an index of blogs, news, link to xmca archives, etc. - a minimal front page. That's my view. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ UCB wrote: > I'm > > Sent from my iPhone > > >> On Mar 5, 2015, at 8:16 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> The compensation that our times gives for having melted everything into air is that Google can always find it, even if it is scattered to the four winds ... provided only that you know what you're looking for. >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >>> Right, Andy. >>> >>> LCHC has been a major source of support for MCA because it started here. but it is an international journal, and whether it remains anchored at UCSD. The xmca discussion >>> could or could not go on in any form imaginable. Whether or not there is sufficient interest and willingness of people to collaborate in such an effort is an open question. Like the future always is. >>> >>> As Alexander Luria wrote an eon ago in the last paragraph of his autobiography: >>> >>> "People come and go, but the creative sources of great historical events and important ideas and deeds remain." >>> Its an optimistic view, but seems appropriate to the circumstances. >>> mike >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>> >>> It's basically a judgment about longevity, I think. >>> Universities last forever, but sometimes the people who come after >>> don't see the point of preserving old archives. (That's really >>> true!). >>> Volunteer sites, where active participants control the webpages >>> last as long as the collective. How long will xmca live on after us? >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Any reason why xmca has to be located at LCHC? mike >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Andy Blunden >>> >>> >> wrote: >>> >>> A web page without an interested and active webmaster looking >>> after and updating will always be a fossil. >>> A volunteer to maintain the UCSD webpages has to be a part >>> of the >>> CHAT discussion AND an employee of UCSD with permissions >>> on the >>> server. >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Now what to do about that clunky xmca web page? >>> Any volunteers to provide the proper facilities? >>> mike >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Greg Thompson >>> >> >>> >> > >>> >> >>> >> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Is there a website somewhere that these sorts of >>> things can be >>> archived? >>> E.g., I just noticed that XMCA's (kinda clunky!) >>> home page has >>> links to >>> videos from 2010 and 2008 but nothing more recent. >>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >>> >>> Seems a shame for this link only to appear on >>> Andy's page >>> and in >>> this email >>> that will soon be buried... >>> >>> Anyone have any ideas? >>> >>> -greg >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Andy Blunden >>> >>> > >>> >> >> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > In January and February, I delivered 10 lectures >>> on *The >>> Concepts of CHAT* >>> > in Melbourne. >>> > I have edited them up into a series of videos, >>> using the >>> PowerPoint >>> > slides, subtitles and audience views to enhance the >>> talking head. >>> > Shukla Sikder and Feiyan Chen did a great job in >>> video >>> recording >>> the whole >>> > thing and the quality is good. >>> > The concepts covered are: Action, behaviour and >>> consciousness; >>> Genetic >>> > method; unity and dichotomy; Analysis by units >>> and germ >>> cell; Word >>> > meaning and artefact-mediated action, dual >>> stimulation; Perezhivanie and >>> > catharsis, social situation of development, >>> disability/compensation; >>> > Concepts during childhood; Spontaneous, true >>> and actual >>> concepts; the >>> > emotions; Activity: operations, actions and >>> activities; >>> Object >>> of activity >>> > in Leontyev, Engestr?m and Vygotsky; Project as >>> unit of >>> social life. >>> > The videos and a link to the prescribed reading >>> is at >>> > https://vimeo.com/groups/301100/ >>> > >>> > There's 10 hours of video there, so I don't expect >>> reviews from >>> xmca-ers, >>> > but anyone teaching CHAT might consider whether >>> it meets >>> some of >>> your >>> > needs. I try to confine myself to what I know >>> something >>> about >>> and as best I >>> > could, stayed away from issues of Psychology and >>> Learning >>> Science of which >>> > I am ignorant. Just the Concepts. >>> > >>> > Andy >>> > -- >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> > *Andy Blunden* >>> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as >>> a natural science >>> with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science >>> with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Mar 6 16:21:25 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 16:21:25 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Concepts of CHAT In-Reply-To: <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> Message-ID: Thanks for the thoughts, Andy. I am not sure what it means to leave it where it is AND have a blog (hosted at UCSD?). And not sure how fees would be collected or who would agree, etc. How about you organize a committee of willing volunteers, include me as ex officio, and then come back to the list with a proposal? mike On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Would be goods to see the rest of your message, Renee. > Mike, here's what I think. > Leave xmca where it is. If some future leader of LCHC wants to delete it, > that will have to be handled at the time. > To develop the xmca community, I suggest you take up an offer you have had > for a website on a non-university server and a technical manager who can > just issue server permissions or something. Such a role which would be > inherited by whoever took over the responsibility for the server in the > future. Fees would be modest in this instance and easily raised through > this list. > All xmca participants would be offered a blog on this site. blogging is > something which is verging on being a skill which everyone should have, and > it is very flexible. > If half a dozen xmca participants could operate blogs then we'd have > something. > Nominate an xmca-er - someone like Huw, to manage the coordination of the > pages, for example, an index of blogs, news, link to xmca archives, etc. - > a minimal front page. > That's my view. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > UCB wrote: > >> I'm >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >>> On Mar 5, 2015, at 8:16 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> The compensation that our times gives for having melted everything into >>> air is that Google can always find it, even if it is scattered to the four >>> winds ... provided only that you know what you're looking for. >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Right, Andy. >>>> >>>> LCHC has been a major source of support for MCA because it started >>>> here. but it is an international journal, and whether it remains anchored >>>> at UCSD. The xmca discussion >>>> could or could not go on in any form imaginable. Whether or not there >>>> is sufficient interest and willingness of people to collaborate in such an >>>> effort is an open question. Like the future always is. >>>> >>>> As Alexander Luria wrote an eon ago in the last paragraph of his >>>> autobiography: >>>> >>>> "People come and go, but the creative sources of great historical >>>> events and important ideas and deeds remain." Its an optimistic view, but >>>> seems appropriate to the circumstances. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> It's basically a judgment about longevity, I think. >>>> Universities last forever, but sometimes the people who come after >>>> don't see the point of preserving old archives. (That's really >>>> true!). >>>> Volunteer sites, where active participants control the webpages >>>> last as long as the collective. How long will xmca live on after us? >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> Any reason why xmca has to be located at LCHC? mike >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Andy Blunden >>>> >>>> >> wrote: >>>> >>>> A web page without an interested and active webmaster looking >>>> after and updating will always be a fossil. >>>> A volunteer to maintain the UCSD webpages has to be a part >>>> of the >>>> CHAT discussion AND an employee of UCSD with permissions >>>> on the >>>> server. >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> ------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> Now what to do about that clunky xmca web page? >>>> Any volunteers to provide the proper facilities? >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Greg Thompson >>>> >>> >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Is there a website somewhere that these sorts of >>>> things can be >>>> archived? >>>> E.g., I just noticed that XMCA's (kinda clunky!) >>>> home page has >>>> links to >>>> videos from 2010 and 2008 but nothing more recent. >>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >>>> >>>> Seems a shame for this link only to appear on >>>> Andy's page >>>> and in >>>> this email >>>> that will soon be buried... >>>> >>>> Anyone have any ideas? >>>> >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Andy Blunden >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>> >>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > In January and February, I delivered 10 lectures >>>> on *The >>>> Concepts of CHAT* >>>> > in Melbourne. >>>> > I have edited them up into a series of videos, >>>> using the >>>> PowerPoint >>>> > slides, subtitles and audience views to enhance the >>>> talking head. >>>> > Shukla Sikder and Feiyan Chen did a great job in >>>> video >>>> recording >>>> the whole >>>> > thing and the quality is good. >>>> > The concepts covered are: Action, behaviour and >>>> consciousness; >>>> Genetic >>>> > method; unity and dichotomy; Analysis by units >>>> and germ >>>> cell; Word >>>> > meaning and artefact-mediated action, dual >>>> stimulation; Perezhivanie and >>>> > catharsis, social situation of development, >>>> disability/compensation; >>>> > Concepts during childhood; Spontaneous, true >>>> and actual >>>> concepts; the >>>> > emotions; Activity: operations, actions and >>>> activities; >>>> Object >>>> of activity >>>> > in Leontyev, Engestr?m and Vygotsky; Project as >>>> unit of >>>> social life. >>>> > The videos and a link to the prescribed reading >>>> is at >>>> > https://vimeo.com/groups/301100/ >>>> > >>>> > There's 10 hours of video there, so I don't expect >>>> reviews from >>>> xmca-ers, >>>> > but anyone teaching CHAT might consider whether >>>> it meets >>>> some of >>>> your >>>> > needs. I try to confine myself to what I know >>>> something >>>> about >>>> and as best I >>>> > could, stayed away from issues of Psychology and >>>> Learning >>>> Science of which >>>> > I am ignorant. Just the Concepts. >>>> > >>>> > Andy >>>> > -- >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> ------------------------------------------ >>>> > *Andy Blunden* >>>> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as >>>> a natural science >>>> with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural >>>> science >>>> with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ablunden@mira.net Fri Mar 6 16:27:55 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2015 11:27:55 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> Message-ID: <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> The whole idea of the blogs, etc., is that it would NOT be hosted at UCSD. If it is hosted at UCSD everything has to be done via a technician employed by UCSD who is not a participant in XMCA, or, is limited in its flexibility. Possibly there *are* software packages which could be installed on a UCSD server which could allow fairly free and easy use by xmca participants. But it has not happened so far. Perhaps the Wiki could be adapted to this purpose (i.e. to create a "home page" for xmca)? I'd like to hear Huw's view on this. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Thanks for the thoughts, Andy. I am not sure what it means to leave it > where it is AND have a blog (hosted at UCSD?). And not sure how fees > would be collected or who would agree, etc. > > How about you organize a committee of willing volunteers, include me > as ex officio, and then come back to the list with a proposal? > > mike > > > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Would be goods to see the rest of your message, Renee. > Mike, here's what I think. > Leave xmca where it is. If some future leader of LCHC wants to > delete it, that will have to be handled at the time. > To develop the xmca community, I suggest you take up an offer you > have had for a website on a non-university server and a technical > manager who can just issue server permissions or something. Such a > role which would be inherited by whoever took over the > responsibility for the server in the future. Fees would be modest > in this instance and easily raised through this list. > All xmca participants would be offered a blog on this site. > blogging is something which is verging on being a skill which > everyone should have, and it is very flexible. > If half a dozen xmca participants could operate blogs then we'd > have something. > Nominate an xmca-er - someone like Huw, to manage the coordination > of the pages, for example, an index of blogs, news, link to xmca > archives, etc. - a minimal front page. > That's my view. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > UCB wrote: > > I'm > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Mar 5, 2015, at 8:16 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > The compensation that our times gives for having melted > everything into air is that Google can always find it, > even if it is scattered to the four winds ... provided > only that you know what you're looking for. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > mike cole wrote: > > > Right, Andy. > > LCHC has been a major source of support for MCA > because it started here. but it is an international > journal, and whether it remains anchored at UCSD. The > xmca discussion > could or could not go on in any form imaginable. > Whether or not there is sufficient interest and > willingness of people to collaborate in such an effort > is an open question. Like the future always is. > > As Alexander Luria wrote an eon ago in the last > paragraph of his autobiography: > > "People come and go, but the creative sources of great > historical events and important ideas and deeds > remain." Its an optimistic view, but seems appropriate > to the circumstances. > mike > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Andy Blunden > > >> > wrote: > > It's basically a judgment about longevity, I think. > Universities last forever, but sometimes the people > who come after > don't see the point of preserving old archives. > (That's really > true!). > Volunteer sites, where active participants control > the webpages > last as long as the collective. How long will xmca > live on after us? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > Any reason why xmca has to be located at LCHC? mike > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Andy Blunden > > > > >>> wrote: > > A web page without an interested and active > webmaster looking > after and updating will always be a fossil. > A volunteer to maintain the UCSD webpages > has to be a part > of the > CHAT discussion AND an employee of UCSD > with permissions > on the > server. > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > Now what to do about that clunky xmca > web page? > Any volunteers to provide the proper > facilities? > mike > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Greg > Thompson > > > > > >> > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > Is there a website somewhere that > these sorts of > things can be > archived? > E.g., I just noticed that XMCA's > (kinda clunky!) > home page has > links to > videos from 2010 and 2008 but > nothing more recent. > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ > > Seems a shame for this link only to > appear on > Andy's page > and in > this email > that will soon be buried... > > Anyone have any ideas? > > -greg > > On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 4:47 PM, > Andy Blunden > > > >> > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > In January and February, I > delivered 10 lectures > on *The > Concepts of CHAT* > > in Melbourne. > > I have edited them up into a > series of videos, > using the > PowerPoint > > slides, subtitles and audience > views to enhance the > talking head. > > Shukla Sikder and Feiyan Chen did > a great job in > video > recording > the whole > > thing and the quality is good. > > The concepts covered are: Action, > behaviour and > consciousness; > Genetic > > method; unity and dichotomy; > Analysis by units > and germ > cell; Word > > meaning and artefact-mediated > action, dual > stimulation; Perezhivanie and > > catharsis, social situation of > development, > disability/compensation; > > Concepts during childhood; > Spontaneous, true > and actual > concepts; the > > emotions; Activity: operations, > actions and > activities; > Object > of activity > > in Leontyev, Engestr?m and > Vygotsky; Project as > unit of > social life. > > The videos and a link to the > prescribed reading > is at > > https://vimeo.com/groups/301100/ > > > > There's 10 hours of video there, > so I don't expect > reviews from > xmca-ers, > > but anyone teaching CHAT might > consider whether > it meets > some of > your > > needs. I try to confine myself to > what I know > something > about > and as best I > > could, stayed away from issues of > Psychology and > Learning > Science of which > > I am ignorant. Just the Concepts. > > > > Andy > > -- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of > psychology to deal as > a natural science > with an object that creates history. > Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to > deal as a natural science > with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural > science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Mar 7 14:45:47 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2015 22:45:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> Message-ID: Do you mean an XMCA homepage or a CHAT homepage? XMCA seems fine as a static entity, but a good CHAT 'homepage' should be something much more dynamic involving community based 'gardening'. The wiki does support fairly rich structures (consult the system help files), and a homepage on it could conceivably lead folk into discovering the modestly exciting power of a wiki to organise ideas and collective efforts. Huw On 7 March 2015 at 00:27, Andy Blunden wrote: > The whole idea of the blogs, etc., is that it would NOT be hosted at UCSD. > If it is hosted at UCSD everything has to be done via a technician > employed by UCSD who is not a participant in XMCA, or, is limited in its > flexibility. Possibly there *are* software packages which could be > installed on a UCSD server which could allow fairly free and easy use by > xmca participants. But it has not happened so far. Perhaps the Wiki could > be adapted to this purpose (i.e. to create a "home page" for xmca)? > I'd like to hear Huw's view on this. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: > >> Thanks for the thoughts, Andy. I am not sure what it means to leave it >> where it is AND have a blog (hosted at UCSD?). And not sure how fees would >> be collected or who would agree, etc. >> How about you organize a committee of willing volunteers, include me as >> ex officio, and then come back to the list with a proposal? >> >> mike >> >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Andy Blunden > ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> Would be goods to see the rest of your message, Renee. >> Mike, here's what I think. >> Leave xmca where it is. If some future leader of LCHC wants to >> delete it, that will have to be handled at the time. >> To develop the xmca community, I suggest you take up an offer you >> have had for a website on a non-university server and a technical >> manager who can just issue server permissions or something. Such a >> role which would be inherited by whoever took over the >> responsibility for the server in the future. Fees would be modest >> in this instance and easily raised through this list. >> All xmca participants would be offered a blog on this site. >> blogging is something which is verging on being a skill which >> everyone should have, and it is very flexible. >> If half a dozen xmca participants could operate blogs then we'd >> have something. >> Nominate an xmca-er - someone like Huw, to manage the coordination >> of the pages, for example, an index of blogs, news, link to xmca >> archives, etc. - a minimal front page. >> That's my view. >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> UCB wrote: >> >> I'm >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On Mar 5, 2015, at 8:16 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> The compensation that our times gives for having melted >> everything into air is that Google can always find it, >> even if it is scattered to the four winds ... provided >> only that you know what you're looking for. >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> Right, Andy. >> >> LCHC has been a major source of support for MCA >> because it started here. but it is an international >> journal, and whether it remains anchored at UCSD. The >> xmca discussion >> could or could not go on in any form imaginable. >> Whether or not there is sufficient interest and >> willingness of people to collaborate in such an effort >> is an open question. Like the future always is. >> >> As Alexander Luria wrote an eon ago in the last >> paragraph of his autobiography: >> >> "People come and go, but the creative sources of great >> historical events and important ideas and deeds >> remain." Its an optimistic view, but seems appropriate >> to the circumstances. >> mike >> >> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Andy Blunden >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> It's basically a judgment about longevity, I think. >> Universities last forever, but sometimes the people >> who come after >> don't see the point of preserving old archives. >> (That's really >> true!). >> Volunteer sites, where active participants control >> the webpages >> last as long as the collective. How long will xmca >> live on after us? >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> ------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> Any reason why xmca has to be located at LCHC? mike >> >> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Andy Blunden >> >> > >> > > >>> wrote: >> >> A web page without an interested and active >> webmaster looking >> after and updating will always be a fossil. >> A volunteer to maintain the UCSD webpages >> has to be a part >> of the >> CHAT discussion AND an employee of UCSD >> with permissions >> on the >> server. >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> Now what to do about that clunky xmca >> web page? >> Any volunteers to provide the proper >> facilities? >> mike >> >> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Greg >> Thompson >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > >> > >>>> wrote: >> >> Is there a website somewhere that >> these sorts of >> things can be >> archived? >> E.g., I just noticed that XMCA's >> (kinda clunky!) >> home page has >> links to >> videos from 2010 and 2008 but >> nothing more recent. >> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >> >> Seems a shame for this link only to >> appear on >> Andy's page >> and in >> this email >> that will soon be buried... >> >> Anyone have any ideas? >> >> -greg >> >> On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 4:47 PM, >> Andy Blunden >> > > > >> > > >> >> > >> > > > >> > >>>> wrote: >> >> > In January and February, I >> delivered 10 lectures >> on *The >> Concepts of CHAT* >> > in Melbourne. >> > I have edited them up into a >> series of videos, >> using the >> PowerPoint >> > slides, subtitles and audience >> views to enhance the >> talking head. >> > Shukla Sikder and Feiyan Chen did >> a great job in >> video >> recording >> the whole >> > thing and the quality is good. >> > The concepts covered are: Action, >> behaviour and >> consciousness; >> Genetic >> > method; unity and dichotomy; >> Analysis by units >> and germ >> cell; Word >> > meaning and artefact-mediated >> action, dual >> stimulation; Perezhivanie and >> > catharsis, social situation of >> development, >> disability/compensation; >> > Concepts during childhood; >> Spontaneous, true >> and actual >> concepts; the >> > emotions; Activity: operations, >> actions and >> activities; >> Object >> of activity >> > in Leontyev, Engestr?m and >> Vygotsky; Project as >> unit of >> social life. >> > The videos and a link to the >> prescribed reading >> is at >> > https://vimeo.com/groups/301100/ >> > >> > There's 10 hours of video there, >> so I don't expect >> reviews from >> xmca-ers, >> > but anyone teaching CHAT might >> consider whether >> it meets >> some of >> your >> > needs. I try to confine myself to >> what I know >> something >> about >> and as best I >> > could, stayed away from issues of >> Psychology and >> Learning >> Science of which >> > I am ignorant. Just the Concepts. >> > >> > Andy >> > -- >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > *Andy Blunden* >> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/ >> GregoryThompson >> >> >> >> >> -- It is the dilemma of >> psychology to deal as >> a natural science >> with an object that creates history. >> Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- It is the dilemma of psychology to >> deal as a natural science >> with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- It is the dilemma of psychology to >> deal as a natural >> science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Mar 7 14:59:19 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 07:59:19 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Why Computers Make So Little Difference Message-ID: In a recent interview, Chomsky was asked how computers would transform language. He scoffed a little, and remarked that he didn't think they would, at least not nearly as much as printing presses did. I am inclined to attribute this view to Chomsky's general anti-developmentalism, but on reflection, it occurs to me that there are three good reasons to suspect that so far, Chomsky's right. First of all, the printing press made it possible to create whole populations of literate people. The impact of computers has been much more restricted, simply because it requires a certain capital threshold to buy into that impact, and this threshold is denied to whole countries and to whole sections within even the most affluent countries. Secondly, the printing press made it possible to turn information into a printed commodity at a moment when the creation and distribution of commodities was a central neoformation in human productivity. The impact of computers has been--well, largely to create and distribute commodities. But this just isn't a neoformation any more, and it actually has the effect of atomizing and trivializing information in many cases, the way that putting a poem or even a good scientific book on a PPT atomizes and trivializes it. (Sometimes when I walk over to the stacks in the nearby library and look up a journal article, I take a moment to marvel at how much historical perspective--how many opportunities to learn things while looking up other things--I lose when I simply "hunt and peck" for articles I need on the iinternet.) Thirdly, and most importantly from a CHAT perspective: the priniting press changed our unit of analysis for language in a very fundamental way: meanings, wordings, and soundings became clearly distinct and differentiated for the first time. There isn't any comparable shift in the unit of analysis for language wrought by computers. For the illiterate, the printing press made it possible to abstract meanings from wordings and wordings from soundings for the first time: the distancing effect destroyed forever the illusion that words were simply names for actual objects and forced every literate person to think in terms of examples of concepts instead. Even for the literate, the printing press made it possible to see wordings and even soundings as made of interchangeable parts, and of meanings as examples of concepts that have to be built up from soundings and wordings. (As an idealist, Chomsky has a good grasp of this: he often points out that words like "river" only really refer to concepts within the mind, not to physical objects, and the correspondence of that concept to reality is really a coincidence and not a reflection of any kind--what he is not ready to accept is that that coincidence is carefully set up and stage managed by culture and history and not simply a product of evolution.) The computer actually obscures all this, not only by bringing graphics, sound, and text together again, but also by creating, on the semantic plane, the illusion of a single concrete virtual reality, when in fact all we really have are separate computers, which we can use to create that illusion by technical rather than imaginative means. We often think of the history of information as speeding up as it progresses, the way life appears to a man in his late middle age. But it is also possible to regard it as slowing down, the way life appears when we look at a small child, or, more generally, when we consider this history not as the creation of information but instead as the creation of potential. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From ablunden@mira.net Sat Mar 7 18:11:51 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 13:11:51 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> Message-ID: <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> Well, CHAT is a very broad church. A kind of x-xmca home page. But yes, let's say a CHAT home page. And I agree: "a good CHAT 'homepage' should be something much more dynamic involving community based 'gardening'." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Huw Lloyd wrote: > Do you mean an XMCA homepage or a CHAT homepage? > > XMCA seems fine as a static entity, but a good CHAT 'homepage' should > be something much more dynamic involving community based 'gardening'. > > The wiki does support fairly rich structures (consult the system help > files), and a homepage on it could conceivably lead folk into > discovering the modestly exciting power of a wiki to organise ideas > and collective efforts. > > Huw > > > On 7 March 2015 at 00:27, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > The whole idea of the blogs, etc., is that it would NOT be hosted > at UCSD. > If it is hosted at UCSD everything has to be done via a technician > employed by UCSD who is not a participant in XMCA, or, is limited > in its flexibility. Possibly there *are* software packages which > could be installed on a UCSD server which could allow fairly free > and easy use by xmca participants. But it has not happened so far. > Perhaps the Wiki could be adapted to this purpose (i.e. to create > a "home page" for xmca)? > I'd like to hear Huw's view on this. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > mike cole wrote: > > Thanks for the thoughts, Andy. I am not sure what it means to > leave it where it is AND have a blog (hosted at UCSD?). And > not sure how fees would be collected or who would agree, etc. > How about you organize a committee of willing volunteers, > include me as ex officio, and then come back to the list with > a proposal? > > mike > > > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Andy Blunden > > >> wrote: > > Would be goods to see the rest of your message, Renee. > Mike, here's what I think. > Leave xmca where it is. If some future leader of LCHC wants to > delete it, that will have to be handled at the time. > To develop the xmca community, I suggest you take up an > offer you > have had for a website on a non-university server and a > technical > manager who can just issue server permissions or > something. Such a > role which would be inherited by whoever took over the > responsibility for the server in the future. Fees would be > modest > in this instance and easily raised through this list. > All xmca participants would be offered a blog on this site. > blogging is something which is verging on being a skill which > everyone should have, and it is very flexible. > If half a dozen xmca participants could operate blogs then > we'd > have something. > Nominate an xmca-er - someone like Huw, to manage the > coordination > of the pages, for example, an index of blogs, news, link > to xmca > archives, etc. - a minimal front page. > That's my view. > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > UCB wrote: > > I'm > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 5, 2015, at 8:16 PM, Andy Blunden > > >> wrote: > > The compensation that our times gives for having > melted > everything into air is that Google can always find it, > even if it is scattered to the four winds ... provided > only that you know what you're looking for. > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > Right, Andy. > > LCHC has been a major source of support for MCA > because it started here. but it is an > international > journal, and whether it remains anchored at > UCSD. The > xmca discussion > could or could not go on in any form imaginable. > Whether or not there is sufficient interest and > willingness of people to collaborate in such > an effort > is an open question. Like the future always is. > > As Alexander Luria wrote an eon ago in the last > paragraph of his autobiography: > > "People come and go, but the creative sources > of great > historical events and important ideas and deeds > remain." Its an optimistic view, but seems > appropriate > to the circumstances. > mike > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Andy Blunden > > > > >>> > wrote: > > It's basically a judgment about longevity, > I think. > Universities last forever, but sometimes > the people > who come after > don't see the point of preserving old > archives. (That's really > true!). > Volunteer sites, where active participants > control > the webpages > last as long as the collective. How long > will xmca > live on after us? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > Any reason why xmca has to be located > at LCHC? mike > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Andy > Blunden > > > >> > > > > >>>> wrote: > > A web page without an interested > and active > webmaster looking > after and updating will always be a > fossil. > A volunteer to maintain the UCSD > webpages > has to be a part > of the > CHAT discussion AND an employee of UCSD > with permissions > on the > server. > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > Now what to do about that > clunky xmca > web page? > Any volunteers to provide the > proper > facilities? > mike > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:46 > AM, Greg > Thompson > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > Is there a website > somewhere that > these sorts of > things can be > archived? > E.g., I just noticed that > XMCA's > (kinda clunky!) > home page has > links to > videos from 2010 and 2008 but > nothing more recent. > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ > > Seems a shame for this link > only to > appear on > Andy's page > and in > this email > that will soon be buried... > > Anyone have any ideas? > > -greg > > On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 4:47 PM, > Andy Blunden > > > > >> > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > In January and February, I > delivered 10 lectures > on *The > Concepts of CHAT* > > in Melbourne. > > I have edited them up into a > series of videos, > using the > PowerPoint > > slides, subtitles and > audience > views to enhance the > talking head. > > Shukla Sikder and Feiyan > Chen did > a great job in > video > recording > the whole > > thing and the quality is > good. > > The concepts covered are: > Action, > behaviour and > consciousness; > Genetic > > method; unity and > dichotomy; Analysis by units > and germ > cell; Word > > meaning and artefact-mediated > action, dual > stimulation; Perezhivanie and > > catharsis, social > situation of > development, > disability/compensation; > > Concepts during > childhood; Spontaneous, true > and actual > concepts; the > > emotions; Activity: > operations, > actions and > activities; > Object > of activity > > in Leontyev, Engestr?m and > Vygotsky; Project as > unit of > social life. > > The videos and a link to the > prescribed reading > is at > > > https://vimeo.com/groups/301100/ > > > > There's 10 hours of video > there, > so I don't expect > reviews from > xmca-ers, > > but anyone teaching CHAT > might > consider whether > it meets > some of > your > > needs. I try to confine > myself to > what I know > something > about > and as best I > > could, stayed away from > issues of > Psychology and > Learning > Science of which > > I am ignorant. Just the > Concepts. > > > > Andy > > -- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of > psychology to deal as > a natural science > with an object that creates > history. > Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of > psychology to > deal as a natural science > with an object that creates history. > Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of > psychology to deal as a natural > science with an object that creates history. > Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science > with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Mar 7 18:17:30 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 02:17:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> , <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> Message-ID: <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> Andy and Huw, It seems like you have something in mind? Did you wish to unveil something? Kind regards, Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Sat Mar 7 20:58:52 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 15:58:52 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> , <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> Message-ID: <54FBD70C.5030001@mira.net> No, there is no hidden agenda here, Annalisa. http://marxismocritico.com/ is an example of how a great "community garden" could look, though, if each of those tabs had a different "owner." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Andy and Huw, > > It seems like you have something in mind? > > Did you wish to unveil something? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Mar 7 21:43:25 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 05:43:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: <1425793338779.7070@unm.edu> References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> , <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu>, <54FBD70C.5030001@mira.net>, <1425793338779.7070@unm.edu> Message-ID: <1425793404366.6718@unm.edu> Hi Andy, My apologies, I did not mean to sound suspicious, I sincerely thought you both had something in mind. The site you link to doesn't look like a garden to me. It looks like a regular website. How about these links below? The 1st site might be a drupal site, Drupal has something called "drupal planet" that will collect feeds, but I'm not sure how it works exactly. [A feed assembly site might be more like a garden? Then there is no need for permissions, just program the newsfeed and it sucks in links from various independent sites? Does wordpress do something like this?] The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sites below are wordpress sites. The 5th is site is using Open Journal. Not sure what the 6th is, but I couldn't resist to see what a real garden website might look like! :) http://www.knightfoundation.org/ http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2015/3/5/four-knight-fellows-how-community-shapes-creativity/ or https://sweden.se/ https://sweden.se/society/gender-equality-in-sweden/ or http://ilovetypography.com/ http://ilovetypography.com/2014/10/15/the-first-female-typographer/ or http://www.clouds365.com/ http://www.clouds365.com/6-22-14/ or http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/issue/view/13 http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.3.002 Of course, here is the bona fide garden site: http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/ http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/sustainability/ On that happy note... Cheers, Annalisa From glassman.13@osu.edu Sun Mar 8 07:07:07 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 14:07:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Hi David, My guess is that the primary impact of the printing press for many years was to keep a bunch of monks from developing carpel tunnel syndrome. I doubt anybody foresaw the large distribution systems of texts let alone the invention of public libraries. Maybe we are in a similar place with the Internet - although history seems to have sped up quite a bit. The idea of comparing the Internet to the printing press seems relatively new (perhaps I'm wrong) and I'm not sure how helpful it is. First because I don't know if that is that best of historical analogies, and second because I don't know how much we actually gain from historical analogies. People have compared it to the invention of the telephone, to the invention of the governor (the thing that maintains machines not Arnold Schwarzenegger), I think if Lewis Mumford were alive today he would compare it to the invention of the mechanical clock - just came off a big discussion about this and it is currently my favorite in the way it changes our conceptions of time, space, the way we work, the way we do leisure. The printing press and the Internet - Well similar impacts in that they both involve the distribution of information/knowledge Very different impacts in that the printing press is about the way we consume language while the Internet is more about the way we think. Opposite in that the printing press was used to individualize and reify text as knowledge while the Internet at least might (and at its best) id used to collectivize knowledge/information and make it more dynamic. Perhaps one of the most important philosophical lines of our time, I've got a horse right here....his name is Paul Revere....and the man does day it the weather's clear....can do....can do....the man says the horse can do. We choose our favorites, we listen to what its backers tells us, and if everything works out exactly as they tell us they think it will in the future....well, can do!! The reason the line is so great is the subtext - it almost never works out that way. We?re going to have to see where the Internet takes us. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2015 5:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Why Computers Make So Little Difference In a recent interview, Chomsky was asked how computers would transform language. He scoffed a little, and remarked that he didn't think they would, at least not nearly as much as printing presses did. I am inclined to attribute this view to Chomsky's general anti-developmentalism, but on reflection, it occurs to me that there are three good reasons to suspect that so far, Chomsky's right. First of all, the printing press made it possible to create whole populations of literate people. The impact of computers has been much more restricted, simply because it requires a certain capital threshold to buy into that impact, and this threshold is denied to whole countries and to whole sections within even the most affluent countries. Secondly, the printing press made it possible to turn information into a printed commodity at a moment when the creation and distribution of commodities was a central neoformation in human productivity. The impact of computers has been--well, largely to create and distribute commodities. But this just isn't a neoformation any more, and it actually has the effect of atomizing and trivializing information in many cases, the way that putting a poem or even a good scientific book on a PPT atomizes and trivializes it. (Sometimes when I walk over to the stacks in the nearby library and look up a journal article, I take a moment to marvel at how much historical perspective--how many opportunities to learn things while looking up other things--I lose when I simply "hunt and peck" for articles I need on the iinternet.) Thirdly, and most importantly from a CHAT perspective: the priniting press changed our unit of analysis for language in a very fundamental way: meanings, wordings, and soundings became clearly distinct and differentiated for the first time. There isn't any comparable shift in the unit of analysis for language wrought by computers. For the illiterate, the printing press made it possible to abstract meanings from wordings and wordings from soundings for the first time: the distancing effect destroyed forever the illusion that words were simply names for actual objects and forced every literate person to think in terms of examples of concepts instead. Even for the literate, the printing press made it possible to see wordings and even soundings as made of interchangeable parts, and of meanings as examples of concepts that have to be built up from soundings and wordings. (As an idealist, Chomsky has a good grasp of this: he often points out that words like "river" only really refer to concepts within the mind, not to physical objects, and the correspondence of that concept to reality is really a coincidence and not a reflection of any kind--what he is not ready to accept is that that coincidence is carefully set up and stage managed by culture and history and not simply a product of evolution.) The computer actually obscures all this, not only by bringing graphics, sound, and text together again, but also by creating, on the semantic plane, the illusion of a single concrete virtual reality, when in fact all we really have are separate computers, which we can use to create that illusion by technical rather than imaginative means. We often think of the history of information as speeding up as it progresses, the way life appears to a man in his late middle age. But it is also possible to regard it as slowing down, the way life appears when we look at a small child, or, more generally, when we consider this history not as the creation of information but instead as the creation of potential. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From smago@uga.edu Sun Mar 8 11:23:50 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 18:23:50 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: NYTimes: If an Algorithm Wrote This, How Would You Even Know? In-Reply-To: <7D27E386-9CBE-4B06-B7D5-B2ADACB149C3@uga.edu> References: <7D27E386-9CBE-4B06-B7D5-B2ADACB149C3@uga.edu> Message-ID: If speech is the tool of tools, what then is computer-generated speech? http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/08/opinion/sunday/if-an-algorithm-wrote-this-how-would-you-even-know.html?smid=nytcore-ipad-share&smprod=nytcore-ipad From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Mar 8 11:40:35 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (greg.a.thompson@gmail.com) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 12:40:35 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: <1425793404366.6718@unm.edu> References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> <54FBD70C.5030001@mira.net> <1425793338779.7070@unm.edu> <1425793404366.6718@unm.edu> Message-ID: <0DE004BA-1D95-47DD-8D35-2BC190C87952@gmail.com> Annalisa, very interesting sites. Might we call some of them para-sites since they don't really host content themselves but instead simply feed content from other sites? (Maybe someone else has already made that connection?). Anyway, it seems like it would be an easy thing to set up. And anyone could do it, right? So why not prototype it and see what works and what doesn't? And then refine as needed. Greg Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 7, 2015, at 10:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Hi Andy, > > My apologies, I did not mean to sound suspicious, I sincerely thought you both had something in mind. > > The site you link to doesn't look like a garden to me. It looks like a regular website. > > How about these links below? > > The 1st site might be a drupal site, Drupal has something called "drupal planet" that will collect feeds, but I'm not sure how it works exactly. > > [A feed assembly site might be more like a garden? Then there is no need for permissions, just program the newsfeed and it sucks in links from various independent sites? Does wordpress do something like this?] > > The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sites below are wordpress sites. > > The 5th is site is using Open Journal. > > Not sure what the 6th is, but I couldn't resist to see what a real garden website might look like! :) > > > http://www.knightfoundation.org/ > http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2015/3/5/four-knight-fellows-how-community-shapes-creativity/ > or > https://sweden.se/ > https://sweden.se/society/gender-equality-in-sweden/ > or > http://ilovetypography.com/ > http://ilovetypography.com/2014/10/15/the-first-female-typographer/ > or > http://www.clouds365.com/ > http://www.clouds365.com/6-22-14/ > or > http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/issue/view/13 > http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.3.002 > > Of course, here is the bona fide garden site: > > http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/ > http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/sustainability/ > > On that happy note... > > Cheers, > > Annalisa > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Mar 8 13:17:49 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 20:17:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: <0DE004BA-1D95-47DD-8D35-2BC190C87952@gmail.com> References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> <54FBD70C.5030001@mira.net> <1425793338779.7070@unm.edu> <1425793404366.6718@unm.edu> <0DE004BA-1D95-47DD-8D35-2BC190C87952@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8 March 2015 at 18:40, wrote: [...] > .Anyway, it seems like it would be an easy thing to set up. And anyone > could do it, right? > So why not prototype it and see what works and what doesn't? And then > refine as needed. > It is easy only to the extent that anyone could use their spontaneous notions of what is required. If they are persistent and thorough they will end up with some conceptions regarding how certain mistakes might be avoided. If they reflected on that process with equal thoroughness, then they might end up with some concepts with which to start the work all over again. So, no, it isn't easy. And it isn't actually cheap either. Huw > Greg > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 7, 2015, at 10:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > > > > Hi Andy, > > > > My apologies, I did not mean to sound suspicious, I sincerely thought > you both had something in mind. > > > > The site you link to doesn't look like a garden to me. It looks like a > regular website. > > > > How about these links below? > > > > The 1st site might be a drupal site, Drupal has something called "drupal > planet" that will collect feeds, but I'm not sure how it works exactly. > > > > [A feed assembly site might be more like a garden? Then there is no need > for permissions, just program the newsfeed and it sucks in links from > various independent sites? Does wordpress do something like this?] > > > > The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sites below are wordpress sites. > > > > The 5th is site is using Open Journal. > > > > Not sure what the 6th is, but I couldn't resist to see what a real > garden website might look like! :) > > > > > > http://www.knightfoundation.org/ > > > http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2015/3/5/four-knight-fellows-how-community-shapes-creativity/ > > or > > https://sweden.se/ > > https://sweden.se/society/gender-equality-in-sweden/ > > or > > http://ilovetypography.com/ > > http://ilovetypography.com/2014/10/15/the-first-female-typographer/ > > or > > http://www.clouds365.com/ > > http://www.clouds365.com/6-22-14/ > > or > > http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/issue/view/13 > > http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.3.002 > > > > Of course, here is the bona fide garden site: > > > > http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/ > > http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/sustainability/ > > > > On that happy note... > > > > Cheers, > > > > Annalisa > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Mar 8 14:34:07 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 15:34:07 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> <54FBD70C.5030001@mira.net> <1425793338779.7070@unm.edu> <1425793404366.6718@unm.edu> <0DE004BA-1D95-47DD-8D35-2BC190C87952@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ha! Huw, I was looking at another, much simpler way of doing a feed than what Annalisa had shown (and I don't really know how I got there since it doesn't seem to be included in Annalisa's email). I was looking at a Quora page but I seem to recall that there are other websites that will let you set up a page that will feed from other sites. The idea being that you can set up a page and determine multiple other sites that will feed to it (e.g., the XMCA home page, Andy's Vimeo page, etc.). Seems like there was even a feature that you can set so that it will regularly search the web and display new content that appears on the web (e.g., you could set a search term for "cultural historical activity theory" and there would be a section of the page that would display everything that is recent on the web that relates to those search terms). I know there is at least one site out there that can do this but I can't recall what it was called (I learned of it from Mike Wesch who used it for one of his classes). Huw or anyone else, do you know what I'm talking about? That was what I meant when I said that it would be minimal time to maintain and could be set up by anyone with minimal cost. But maybe that was all just a dream... -greg On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > On 8 March 2015 at 18:40, wrote: > [...] > > > .Anyway, it seems like it would be an easy thing to set up. And anyone > > could do it, right? > > So why not prototype it and see what works and what doesn't? And then > > refine as needed. > > > > It is easy only to the extent that anyone could use their spontaneous > notions of what is required. If they are persistent and thorough they will > end up with some conceptions regarding how certain mistakes might be > avoided. If they reflected on that process with equal thoroughness, then > they might end up with some concepts with which to start the work all over > again. > > So, no, it isn't easy. And it isn't actually cheap either. > > Huw > > > > Greg > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Mar 7, 2015, at 10:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Andy, > > > > > > My apologies, I did not mean to sound suspicious, I sincerely thought > > you both had something in mind. > > > > > > The site you link to doesn't look like a garden to me. It looks like a > > regular website. > > > > > > How about these links below? > > > > > > The 1st site might be a drupal site, Drupal has something called > "drupal > > planet" that will collect feeds, but I'm not sure how it works exactly. > > > > > > [A feed assembly site might be more like a garden? Then there is no > need > > for permissions, just program the newsfeed and it sucks in links from > > various independent sites? Does wordpress do something like this?] > > > > > > The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sites below are wordpress sites. > > > > > > The 5th is site is using Open Journal. > > > > > > Not sure what the 6th is, but I couldn't resist to see what a real > > garden website might look like! :) > > > > > > > > > http://www.knightfoundation.org/ > > > > > > http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2015/3/5/four-knight-fellows-how-community-shapes-creativity/ > > > or > > > https://sweden.se/ > > > https://sweden.se/society/gender-equality-in-sweden/ > > > or > > > http://ilovetypography.com/ > > > http://ilovetypography.com/2014/10/15/the-first-female-typographer/ > > > or > > > http://www.clouds365.com/ > > > http://www.clouds365.com/6-22-14/ > > > or > > > http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/issue/view/13 > > > http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.3.002 > > > > > > Of course, here is the bona fide garden site: > > > > > > http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/ > > > http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/sustainability/ > > > > > > On that happy note... > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Mar 8 14:54:25 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 21:54:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> <54FBD70C.5030001@mira.net> <1425793338779.7070@unm.edu> <1425793404366.6718@unm.edu> <0DE004BA-1D95-47DD-8D35-2BC190C87952@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well I wrote a server-side library to achieve a broader version of that 5 years ago. But that is peripheral to what Andy's question is about. Huw On 8 March 2015 at 21:34, Greg Thompson wrote: > Ha! Huw, I was looking at another, much simpler way of doing a feed than > what Annalisa had shown (and I don't really know how I got there since it > doesn't seem to be included in Annalisa's email). > > I was looking at a Quora page but I seem to recall that there are other > websites that will let you set up a page that will feed from other sites. > The idea being that you can set up a page and determine multiple other > sites that will feed to it (e.g., the XMCA home page, Andy's Vimeo page, > etc.). Seems like there was even a feature that you can set so that it will > regularly search the web and display new content that appears on the web > (e.g., you could set a search term for "cultural historical activity > theory" and there would be a section of the page that would display > everything that is recent on the web that relates to those search terms). > > I know there is at least one site out there that can do this but I can't > recall what it was called (I learned of it from Mike Wesch who used it for > one of his classes). > > Huw or anyone else, do you know what I'm talking about? > > That was what I meant when I said that it would be minimal time to maintain > and could be set up by anyone with minimal cost. > > But maybe that was all just a dream... > -greg > > > > On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > On 8 March 2015 at 18:40, wrote: > > [...] > > > > > .Anyway, it seems like it would be an easy thing to set up. And anyone > > > could do it, right? > > > So why not prototype it and see what works and what doesn't? And then > > > refine as needed. > > > > > > > It is easy only to the extent that anyone could use their spontaneous > > notions of what is required. If they are persistent and thorough they > will > > end up with some conceptions regarding how certain mistakes might be > > avoided. If they reflected on that process with equal thoroughness, then > > they might end up with some concepts with which to start the work all > over > > again. > > > > So, no, it isn't easy. And it isn't actually cheap either. > > > > Huw > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > On Mar 7, 2015, at 10:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Andy, > > > > > > > > My apologies, I did not mean to sound suspicious, I sincerely thought > > > you both had something in mind. > > > > > > > > The site you link to doesn't look like a garden to me. It looks like > a > > > regular website. > > > > > > > > How about these links below? > > > > > > > > The 1st site might be a drupal site, Drupal has something called > > "drupal > > > planet" that will collect feeds, but I'm not sure how it works exactly. > > > > > > > > [A feed assembly site might be more like a garden? Then there is no > > need > > > for permissions, just program the newsfeed and it sucks in links from > > > various independent sites? Does wordpress do something like this?] > > > > > > > > The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sites below are wordpress sites. > > > > > > > > The 5th is site is using Open Journal. > > > > > > > > Not sure what the 6th is, but I couldn't resist to see what a real > > > garden website might look like! :) > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.knightfoundation.org/ > > > > > > > > > > http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2015/3/5/four-knight-fellows-how-community-shapes-creativity/ > > > > or > > > > https://sweden.se/ > > > > https://sweden.se/society/gender-equality-in-sweden/ > > > > or > > > > http://ilovetypography.com/ > > > > http://ilovetypography.com/2014/10/15/the-first-female-typographer/ > > > > or > > > > http://www.clouds365.com/ > > > > http://www.clouds365.com/6-22-14/ > > > > or > > > > http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/issue/view/13 > > > > http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.3.002 > > > > > > > > Of course, here is the bona fide garden site: > > > > > > > > http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/ > > > > http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/sustainability/ > > > > > > > > On that happy note... > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Mar 8 15:16:23 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 22:16:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> <54FBD70C.5030001@mira.net> <1425793338779.7070@unm.edu> <1425793404366.6718@unm.edu> <0DE004BA-1D95-47DD-8D35-2BC190C87952@gmail.com> , Message-ID: <1425852983963.89505@unm.edu> Hello Huw, Greg, Andy, and esteemed others, I am sensitive to Huw's comments about the complexity of doing things, and his hesitancy to jump on a bandwagon of "something that is easy" is warranted. It is never easy. It requires much thought before making changes, particularly with such a venerable institution as the xmca list. In the case where there are volunteers, it is that much more difficult, because people's availability is unpredictable. Someone has to drive the tool, even if is the most simple process. And so understanding limitations there is also worth exploring and understanding. It does seem a worthwhile discussion to explore the question, "What is an XMCA homepage?" and what is the consensus of what we want it to do? Once that has been identified, it seems possible to narrow that down to smaller bite-sized steps and then proceed from there, which would entail shopping for tools that are out there and understanding what they can and cannot do. I see what might be happening here is fixation on the tool before knowing what we actually want to do. And so that is why I ask the question, "What is an XMCA homepage?" What is this supposed to do? What is it supposed to say (communicate) about XMCA? Then we might progress to discussing The How and The Who? (not the rock band, obviously??) Is that a fair place to start? Kind regards, Annalisa From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Sun Mar 8 15:21:30 2015 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (rjsp2) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 22:21:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> <54FBD70C.5030001@mira.net> <1425793338779.7070@unm.edu> <1425793404366.6718@unm.edu> <0DE004BA-1D95-47DD-8D35-2BC190C87952@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54FCCB6A.8040806@open.ac.uk> Scoop it perhaps http://www.scoop.it or paper li http://paper.li Rob On 08/03/2015 21:34, Greg Thompson wrote: > Ha! Huw, I was looking at another, much simpler way of doing a feed than > what Annalisa had shown (and I don't really know how I got there since it > doesn't seem to be included in Annalisa's email). > > I was looking at a Quora page but I seem to recall that there are other > websites that will let you set up a page that will feed from other sites. > The idea being that you can set up a page and determine multiple other > sites that will feed to it (e.g., the XMCA home page, Andy's Vimeo page, > etc.). Seems like there was even a feature that you can set so that it will > regularly search the web and display new content that appears on the web > (e.g., you could set a search term for "cultural historical activity > theory" and there would be a section of the page that would display > everything that is recent on the web that relates to those search terms). > > I know there is at least one site out there that can do this but I can't > recall what it was called (I learned of it from Mike Wesch who used it for > one of his classes). > > Huw or anyone else, do you know what I'm talking about? > > That was what I meant when I said that it would be minimal time to maintain > and could be set up by anyone with minimal cost. > > But maybe that was all just a dream... > -greg > > > > On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> On 8 March 2015 at 18:40, wrote: >> [...] >> >>> .Anyway, it seems like it would be an easy thing to set up. And anyone >>> could do it, right? >>> So why not prototype it and see what works and what doesn't? And then >>> refine as needed. >>> >> It is easy only to the extent that anyone could use their spontaneous >> notions of what is required. If they are persistent and thorough they will >> end up with some conceptions regarding how certain mistakes might be >> avoided. If they reflected on that process with equal thoroughness, then >> they might end up with some concepts with which to start the work all over >> again. >> >> So, no, it isn't easy. And it isn't actually cheap either. >> >> Huw >> >> >>> Greg >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Mar 7, 2015, at 10:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Andy, >>>> >>>> My apologies, I did not mean to sound suspicious, I sincerely thought >>> you both had something in mind. >>>> The site you link to doesn't look like a garden to me. It looks like a >>> regular website. >>>> How about these links below? >>>> >>>> The 1st site might be a drupal site, Drupal has something called >> "drupal >>> planet" that will collect feeds, but I'm not sure how it works exactly. >>>> [A feed assembly site might be more like a garden? Then there is no >> need >>> for permissions, just program the newsfeed and it sucks in links from >>> various independent sites? Does wordpress do something like this?] >>>> The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sites below are wordpress sites. >>>> >>>> The 5th is site is using Open Journal. >>>> >>>> Not sure what the 6th is, but I couldn't resist to see what a real >>> garden website might look like! :) >>>> >>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/ >>>> >> http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2015/3/5/four-knight-fellows-how-community-shapes-creativity/ >>>> or >>>> https://sweden.se/ >>>> https://sweden.se/society/gender-equality-in-sweden/ >>>> or >>>> http://ilovetypography.com/ >>>> http://ilovetypography.com/2014/10/15/the-first-female-typographer/ >>>> or >>>> http://www.clouds365.com/ >>>> http://www.clouds365.com/6-22-14/ >>>> or >>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/issue/view/13 >>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.3.002 >>>> >>>> Of course, here is the bona fide garden site: >>>> >>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/ >>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/sustainability/ >>>> >>>> On that happy note... >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>> > > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Mar 8 15:44:02 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 22:44:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: NYTimes: If an Algorithm Wrote This, How Would You Even Know? In-Reply-To: References: <7D27E386-9CBE-4B06-B7D5-B2ADACB149C3@uga.edu>, Message-ID: <1425854643513.237@unm.edu> Hi Peter, This is an intriguing article. Thanks for posting it. I think it passed the Turing test for me, because I thought the first example was written by a person because it didn't have that much data, and the other example had too much data, but then I was comparing them, so it's not a clean Turing test. I would like to clarify to the esteemed others on our beloved list that a feed is an automated script (which would live at XMCA server) that would ping other sites (like the way a radar works) and capture links from these offsite websites. These links (and perhaps a truncated blurb of text) would display on the xmca homepage, with the idea that there would be no need to control permissions on the server once the feed script was set up. At least that's the idea, it may be more complex than that (Huw??), but it is worth exploring because it means that any XMCA author could be in charge of one's own content, as a blog or any other digital content offsite from XMCA and the links would appear (ideally) at the XMCA homepage, making it a kind of clearinghouse for current events in the community in terms of other published content appearing on the web. Of course we might want to remember that this will likely generate more discussion in the wider community, which would be a good thing, but have we the server horsepower? Just asking... If any one is on Academia, this is happening when you get notifications that Andy has uploaded a new draft of a paper, for example (if one is following him there obviously. Andy has not become that ubiquitous just yet!!!) So instead of this feed appearing as an email (though it could do that), it appears as a list or stream at the XMCA website. Another thought: There is the possibility of creating filters and tags and this would enable the feed to create topical pages that list links there so that one isn't seeing a flood of unsorted links, but that they are grouped based upon their tags/filters. Of course this isn't computer generated text as is described in the NYT article, but I realized that non-technical folks may not understand what a feed is. So I thought I'd try explaining that. Anyone, please feel free to add to what I've said, I don't mind. Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Mar 8 16:18:08 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 16:18:08 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: NYTimes: If an Algorithm Wrote This, How Would You Even Know? In-Reply-To: <1425854643513.237@unm.edu> References: <7D27E386-9CBE-4B06-B7D5-B2ADACB149C3@uga.edu> <1425854643513.237@unm.edu> Message-ID: Could you folks who are discussing possible infrastructural improvements in xmca please create a thread called xmca infrastructural improvements, or whatever? The discussion is bleeding across headers and making difficult to track discussion threads, fragile as those tendrils tend to be. Trying to keep track on so cal mike On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Peter, > > This is an intriguing article. Thanks for posting it. I think it passed > the Turing test for me, because I thought the first example was written by > a person because it didn't have that much data, and the other example had > too much data, but then I was comparing them, so it's not a clean Turing > test. > > I would like to clarify to the esteemed others on our beloved list that a > feed is an automated script (which would live at XMCA server) that would > ping other sites (like the way a radar works) and capture links from these > offsite websites. These links (and perhaps a truncated blurb of text) would > display on the xmca homepage, with the idea that there would be no need to > control permissions on the server once the feed script was set up. > > At least that's the idea, it may be more complex than that (Huw??), but it > is worth exploring because it means that any XMCA author could be in charge > of one's own content, as a blog or any other digital content offsite from > XMCA and the links would appear (ideally) at the XMCA homepage, making it a > kind of clearinghouse for current events in the community in terms of other > published content appearing on the web. > > Of course we might want to remember that this will likely generate more > discussion in the wider community, which would be a good thing, but have we > the server horsepower? Just asking... > > If any one is on Academia, this is happening when you get notifications > that Andy has uploaded a new draft of a paper, for example (if one is > following him there obviously. Andy has not become that ubiquitous just > yet!!!) So instead of this feed appearing as an email (though it could do > that), it appears as a list or stream at the XMCA website. > > Another thought: There is the possibility of creating filters and tags and > this would enable the feed to create topical pages that list links there so > that one isn't seeing a flood of unsorted links, but that they are grouped > based upon their tags/filters. > > Of course this isn't computer generated text as is described in the NYT > article, but I realized that non-technical folks may not understand what a > feed is. So I thought I'd try explaining that. > > Anyone, please feel free to add to what I've said, I don't mind. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Mar 8 16:26:11 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 16:26:11 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] The polls will be closig Message-ID: LCHC appears to be offline at present for reasons unknown. Perhaps the heat of the discussion is too much for its tender ear. :-) Last time 'I looked about 50 people had voted for one or another of the "articles-for-discussion". If you have not voted and care to, do it in the day so that we can arrange for the article to be set free for discussion. I'll close the polls at the end of my working day tomorrow unless the outage becomes an outrage. mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Mar 8 16:30:28 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 23:30:28 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> Hi Michael, Comparing the Internet to the printing press, they possess similarities, but it would be like comparing a worldwide shipping system (with trucks, trains, and ships, and docks, and longshore men, etc) to an Ancient Egyptian chariot. Perhaps. I say that since only certain people could enjoy chariots, which required at least a horse and a driver; not everyone had a printing press, or a book, and few could read. Nothing about the printing press itself that predicts distribution. That is more the desire for knowledge, and at that time it was combined with the desire to know the Bible. Other content came later. And then the judgements of who was allowed to learn to read and to write (as well as to read and to write what). It is an interesting project to compare them, however. I would like to emphasize what you said, Michael, that we still don't know what the Internet is doing to us. It is still not clear how the tool will change us: how we will augment to tool and how it will change us in the M?bius strip kind of way. If it's OK, I would like to repeat something I said in the recent past that I think that even Marx (or Vygotsky) could predict the Internet. Seems Orwell was closer in some ways. In 1992, for example, I had no idea what the WWW was. In 1994 I learned about BBS, FTP, newsgroups, and email, though I know these tools were around a lot longer than when I learned of it. So if we can't know and we are here living through these developments in real time, how could Marx? How could Vygotsky? I believe there is a quality about these tools that does transcend their 19th and 20th century consciousnesses. Some things are going to be constant, say that humans still need food to eat. But do we need selfies? Do we need Facebook pages? I liked your Mumfordesque comparison to clocks and how they changed our sense of time, and their creation of boundaries where there are actually none (or there are just signifiers of: sun out/sun not out). Of course, the clock also changed how we sleep, since we can do things later by lamplight (and later by lightbulb) and so we go to sleep later than we used to. This is to point out that it isn't a tool in isolation that changes us, but in the environment in which it appears, as well as other historic and cultural realities and also how one tool interacts with other tools and importantly with the people who use them. I take it everyone here already knows that, so I don't meant to belabor that and give the impression that I think you don't! :) Kind regards, Annalisa From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Sun Mar 8 16:35:16 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 19:35:16 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: CALL FOR PAPERS: 14TH ANNUAL GLOBAL STUDIES CONFERENCE, Toledo, OH June 12-14, 2015 Message-ID: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: Carl Davidson
Date:03/08/2015 6:16 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: pmocombe@mocombeian.com
Subject: CALL FOR PAPERS: 14TH ANNUAL GLOBAL STUDIES CONFERENCE, Toledo, OH June 12-14, 2015
Global Studies Association, 14th Annual Conference GLOBALIZATION: THE URBAN CRISIS AND ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY The University of Toledo Toledo, OH June 12 - 14, 2015 Sponsored by: College of Languages, Literature, and Social Sciences, President's Commission on Global Initiative, and Center for International Studies and Programs To submit a 100-word abstract or a panel idea, send it in the body of an email to Jerry Harris at gharris234@comcast.net by May 10, 2015. Please include your full name and affiliation. All presentation topics will be considered. TO BE REMOVED FROM THIS LIST OF TWO ANNOUNCEMENTS PER YEAR, EMAIL CARLD717@GMAIL.COM See more information at http://www.net4dem.org/mayglobal Keynote Panels FRIDAY Special Film Screening of Shift Change Following discussion with directors Mellissa Young and Mark Dworkin Race and Class in the Solidarity Economy Jessica Gordon Nembhard Michael Peck Rob Witherell Economic Democracy as Political Strategy Carl Davidson Francis Shor Jerry Harris Keynote Panels SATURDAY Keynote Presentation Gar Alperovitz Globalization and the Urban Industrial Crisis: Detroit, Chicago and Gary Frank Hammer Ruth Needleman Dan Swinney From Protest to Resistance and Visionary Organizing?: Boggs Center (Keynote biographies listed on the web site) From ablunden@mira.net Sun Mar 8 16:47:56 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2015 10:47:56 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> <54FBD70C.5030001@mira.net> <1425793338779.7070@unm.edu> <1425793404366.6718@unm.edu> <0DE004BA-1D95-47DD-8D35-2BC190C87952@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54FCDFAC.2090903@mira.net> How would you implement a "community garden" to support MCA and xmca, Huw? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Huw Lloyd wrote: > Well I wrote a server-side library to achieve a broader version of that 5 > years ago. But that is peripheral to what Andy's question is about. > > Huw > > On 8 March 2015 at 21:34, Greg Thompson wrote: > > >> Ha! Huw, I was looking at another, much simpler way of doing a feed than >> what Annalisa had shown (and I don't really know how I got there since it >> doesn't seem to be included in Annalisa's email). >> >> I was looking at a Quora page but I seem to recall that there are other >> websites that will let you set up a page that will feed from other sites. >> The idea being that you can set up a page and determine multiple other >> sites that will feed to it (e.g., the XMCA home page, Andy's Vimeo page, >> etc.). Seems like there was even a feature that you can set so that it will >> regularly search the web and display new content that appears on the web >> (e.g., you could set a search term for "cultural historical activity >> theory" and there would be a section of the page that would display >> everything that is recent on the web that relates to those search terms). >> >> I know there is at least one site out there that can do this but I can't >> recall what it was called (I learned of it from Mike Wesch who used it for >> one of his classes). >> >> Huw or anyone else, do you know what I'm talking about? >> >> That was what I meant when I said that it would be minimal time to maintain >> and could be set up by anyone with minimal cost. >> >> But maybe that was all just a dream... >> -greg >> >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >> >>> On 8 March 2015 at 18:40, wrote: >>> [...] >>> >>> >>>> .Anyway, it seems like it would be an easy thing to set up. And anyone >>>> could do it, right? >>>> So why not prototype it and see what works and what doesn't? And then >>>> refine as needed. >>>> >>>> >>> It is easy only to the extent that anyone could use their spontaneous >>> notions of what is required. If they are persistent and thorough they >>> >> will >> >>> end up with some conceptions regarding how certain mistakes might be >>> avoided. If they reflected on that process with equal thoroughness, then >>> they might end up with some concepts with which to start the work all >>> >> over >> >>> again. >>> >>> So, no, it isn't easy. And it isn't actually cheap either. >>> >>> Huw >>> >>> >>> >>>> Greg >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 7, 2015, at 10:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>>> Hi Andy, >>>>> >>>>> My apologies, I did not mean to sound suspicious, I sincerely thought >>>>> >>>> you both had something in mind. >>>> >>>>> The site you link to doesn't look like a garden to me. It looks like >>>>> >> a >> >>>> regular website. >>>> >>>>> How about these links below? >>>>> >>>>> The 1st site might be a drupal site, Drupal has something called >>>>> >>> "drupal >>> >>>> planet" that will collect feeds, but I'm not sure how it works exactly. >>>> >>>>> [A feed assembly site might be more like a garden? Then there is no >>>>> >>> need >>> >>>> for permissions, just program the newsfeed and it sucks in links from >>>> various independent sites? Does wordpress do something like this?] >>>> >>>>> The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sites below are wordpress sites. >>>>> >>>>> The 5th is site is using Open Journal. >>>>> >>>>> Not sure what the 6th is, but I couldn't resist to see what a real >>>>> >>>> garden website might look like! :) >>>> >>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/ >>>>> >>>>> >> http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2015/3/5/four-knight-fellows-how-community-shapes-creativity/ >> >>>>> or >>>>> https://sweden.se/ >>>>> https://sweden.se/society/gender-equality-in-sweden/ >>>>> or >>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/ >>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/2014/10/15/the-first-female-typographer/ >>>>> or >>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/ >>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/6-22-14/ >>>>> or >>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/issue/view/13 >>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.3.002 >>>>> >>>>> Of course, here is the bona fide garden site: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/ >>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/sustainability/ >>>>> >>>>> On that happy note... >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Mar 8 19:49:54 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 20:49:54 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: <54FCDFAC.2090903@mira.net> References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> <54FBD70C.5030001@mira.net> <1425793338779.7070@unm.edu> <1425793404366.6718@unm.edu> <0DE004BA-1D95-47DD-8D35-2BC190C87952@gmail.com> <54FCDFAC.2090903@mira.net> Message-ID: Here is what I was talking about: http://www.netvibes.com/wesch#Digital_Ethnography This is a page/blog that was set up by Mike Wesch for a digital ethnography course that he taught. It was easy enough to set up the feeds for his course and then could add content where allowed. Note that there are additional tabs to click on for additional content. These can all be customized according to what you want to put up there. This kind of thing can be done on the cheap (Netvibes basic page is free) if anyone out there is interested in making it happen. If it fails, so be it, but it seems better than what I can find out there right now. Any takers? -greg On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > How would you implement a "community garden" to support MCA and xmca, Huw? > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> Well I wrote a server-side library to achieve a broader version of that 5 >> years ago. But that is peripheral to what Andy's question is about. >> >> Huw >> >> On 8 March 2015 at 21:34, Greg Thompson >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Ha! Huw, I was looking at another, much simpler way of doing a feed than >>> what Annalisa had shown (and I don't really know how I got there since it >>> doesn't seem to be included in Annalisa's email). >>> >>> I was looking at a Quora page but I seem to recall that there are other >>> websites that will let you set up a page that will feed from other sites. >>> The idea being that you can set up a page and determine multiple other >>> sites that will feed to it (e.g., the XMCA home page, Andy's Vimeo page, >>> etc.). Seems like there was even a feature that you can set so that it >>> will >>> regularly search the web and display new content that appears on the web >>> (e.g., you could set a search term for "cultural historical activity >>> theory" and there would be a section of the page that would display >>> everything that is recent on the web that relates to those search terms). >>> >>> I know there is at least one site out there that can do this but I can't >>> recall what it was called (I learned of it from Mike Wesch who used it >>> for >>> one of his classes). >>> >>> Huw or anyone else, do you know what I'm talking about? >>> >>> That was what I meant when I said that it would be minimal time to >>> maintain >>> and could be set up by anyone with minimal cost. >>> >>> But maybe that was all just a dream... >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Huw Lloyd >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 8 March 2015 at 18:40, wrote: >>>> [...] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> .Anyway, it seems like it would be an easy thing to set up. And anyone >>>>> could do it, right? >>>>> So why not prototype it and see what works and what doesn't? And then >>>>> refine as needed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> It is easy only to the extent that anyone could use their spontaneous >>>> notions of what is required. If they are persistent and thorough they >>>> >>>> >>> will >>> >>> >>>> end up with some conceptions regarding how certain mistakes might be >>>> avoided. If they reflected on that process with equal thoroughness, >>>> then >>>> they might end up with some concepts with which to start the work all >>>> >>>> >>> over >>> >>> >>>> again. >>>> >>>> So, no, it isn't easy. And it isn't actually cheap either. >>>> >>>> Huw >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Greg >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 7, 2015, at 10:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Andy, >>>>>> >>>>>> My apologies, I did not mean to sound suspicious, I sincerely thought >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> you both had something in mind. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> The site you link to doesn't look like a garden to me. It looks like >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> a >>> >>> >>>> regular website. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> How about these links below? >>>>>> >>>>>> The 1st site might be a drupal site, Drupal has something called >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> "drupal >>>> >>>> >>>>> planet" that will collect feeds, but I'm not sure how it works exactly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> [A feed assembly site might be more like a garden? Then there is no >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> need >>>> >>>> >>>>> for permissions, just program the newsfeed and it sucks in links from >>>>> various independent sites? Does wordpress do something like this?] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sites below are wordpress sites. >>>>>> >>>>>> The 5th is site is using Open Journal. >>>>>> >>>>>> Not sure what the 6th is, but I couldn't resist to see what a real >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> garden website might look like! :) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2015/3/5/ >>> four-knight-fellows-how-community-shapes-creativity/ >>> >>> >>>> or >>>>>> https://sweden.se/ >>>>>> https://sweden.se/society/gender-equality-in-sweden/ >>>>>> or >>>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/ >>>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/2014/10/15/the-first-female-typographer/ >>>>>> or >>>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/ >>>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/6-22-14/ >>>>>> or >>>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/issue/view/13 >>>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.3.002 >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, here is the bona fide garden site: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/ >>>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/sustainability/ >>>>>> >>>>>> On that happy note... >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Mar 8 19:55:52 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 20:55:52 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> <54FBD70C.5030001@mira.net> <1425793338779.7070@unm.edu> <1425793404366.6718@unm.edu> <0DE004BA-1D95-47DD-8D35-2BC190C87952@gmail.com> <54FCDFAC.2090903@mira.net> Message-ID: Sorry, I missed a word in the second paragraph. That was supposed to say "and then STUDENTS could add content where he allowed it". That is important. Also folks, please do correct me if I have any of the details about Netvibes wrong. I'm pretty ignorant... -greg On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 8:49 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Here is what I was talking about: > http://www.netvibes.com/wesch#Digital_Ethnography > > This is a page/blog that was set up by Mike Wesch for a digital > ethnography course that he taught. It was easy enough to set up the feeds > for his course and then could add content where allowed. > > Note that there are additional tabs to click on for additional content. > These can all be customized according to what you want to put up there. > > This kind of thing can be done on the cheap (Netvibes basic page is free) > if anyone out there is interested in making it happen. If it fails, so be > it, but it seems better than what I can find out there right now. > > Any takers? > > -greg > > On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> How would you implement a "community garden" to support MCA and xmca, Huw? >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >>> Well I wrote a server-side library to achieve a broader version of that 5 >>> years ago. But that is peripheral to what Andy's question is about. >>> >>> Huw >>> >>> On 8 March 2015 at 21:34, Greg Thompson >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Ha! Huw, I was looking at another, much simpler way of doing a feed than >>>> what Annalisa had shown (and I don't really know how I got there since >>>> it >>>> doesn't seem to be included in Annalisa's email). >>>> >>>> I was looking at a Quora page but I seem to recall that there are other >>>> websites that will let you set up a page that will feed from other >>>> sites. >>>> The idea being that you can set up a page and determine multiple other >>>> sites that will feed to it (e.g., the XMCA home page, Andy's Vimeo page, >>>> etc.). Seems like there was even a feature that you can set so that it >>>> will >>>> regularly search the web and display new content that appears on the web >>>> (e.g., you could set a search term for "cultural historical activity >>>> theory" and there would be a section of the page that would display >>>> everything that is recent on the web that relates to those search >>>> terms). >>>> >>>> I know there is at least one site out there that can do this but I can't >>>> recall what it was called (I learned of it from Mike Wesch who used it >>>> for >>>> one of his classes). >>>> >>>> Huw or anyone else, do you know what I'm talking about? >>>> >>>> That was what I meant when I said that it would be minimal time to >>>> maintain >>>> and could be set up by anyone with minimal cost. >>>> >>>> But maybe that was all just a dream... >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Huw Lloyd >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 8 March 2015 at 18:40, wrote: >>>>> [...] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> .Anyway, it seems like it would be an easy thing to set up. And anyone >>>>>> could do it, right? >>>>>> So why not prototype it and see what works and what doesn't? And then >>>>>> refine as needed. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> It is easy only to the extent that anyone could use their spontaneous >>>>> notions of what is required. If they are persistent and thorough they >>>>> >>>>> >>>> will >>>> >>>> >>>>> end up with some conceptions regarding how certain mistakes might be >>>>> avoided. If they reflected on that process with equal thoroughness, >>>>> then >>>>> they might end up with some concepts with which to start the work all >>>>> >>>>> >>>> over >>>> >>>> >>>>> again. >>>>> >>>>> So, no, it isn't easy. And it isn't actually cheap either. >>>>> >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Greg >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2015, at 10:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Andy, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My apologies, I did not mean to sound suspicious, I sincerely thought >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> you both had something in mind. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> The site you link to doesn't look like a garden to me. It looks like >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> a >>>> >>>> >>>>> regular website. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> How about these links below? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The 1st site might be a drupal site, Drupal has something called >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> "drupal >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> planet" that will collect feeds, but I'm not sure how it works >>>>>> exactly. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> [A feed assembly site might be more like a garden? Then there is no >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> need >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> for permissions, just program the newsfeed and it sucks in links from >>>>>> various independent sites? Does wordpress do something like this?] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sites below are wordpress sites. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The 5th is site is using Open Journal. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not sure what the 6th is, but I couldn't resist to see what a real >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> garden website might look like! :) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2015/3/5/ >>>> four-knight-fellows-how-community-shapes-creativity/ >>>> >>>> >>>>> or >>>>>>> https://sweden.se/ >>>>>>> https://sweden.se/society/gender-equality-in-sweden/ >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/ >>>>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/2014/10/15/the-first-female-typographer/ >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/ >>>>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/6-22-14/ >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/issue/view/13 >>>>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.3.002 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, here is the bona fide garden site: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/ >>>>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/sustainability/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On that happy note... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Mar 9 02:50:55 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 09:50:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: <54FCDFAC.2090903@mira.net> References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F8F39A.40309@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> <54FBD70C.5030001@mira.net> <1425793338779.7070@unm.edu> <1425793404366.6718@unm.edu> <0DE004BA-1D95-47DD-8D35-2BC190C87952@gmail.com> <54FCDFAC.2090903@mira.net> Message-ID: I don't think you'd need it to support MCA, Andy. MCA is a different project to that of communicating CHAT concepts, practices and resources. MCA endeavours to do a portion of that, in a particular way. XMCA usually reflects a certain impatience with that, it reflects a need to work over, discuss and critique the knowledge and concepts themselves rather than papers built out of a few personalised conceptions related to CHAT. MCA helps academics keep their publication count up and it helps to keep CHAT ideas in circulation within academic settings. But I am not convinced that CHAT can be successfully accommodated by educational institutions as we know them. So, the point is to take an educational project based on CHAT principles (which can often be taken as a scientific exposition of common good sense) and build a truer educational resource out of it. That kind of effort necessitates 'gardening' both for the production of resources and for their accommodation. Huw On 8 March 2015 at 23:47, Andy Blunden wrote: > How would you implement a "community garden" to support MCA and xmca, Huw? > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> Well I wrote a server-side library to achieve a broader version of that 5 >> years ago. But that is peripheral to what Andy's question is about. >> >> Huw >> >> On 8 March 2015 at 21:34, Greg Thompson >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Ha! Huw, I was looking at another, much simpler way of doing a feed than >>> what Annalisa had shown (and I don't really know how I got there since it >>> doesn't seem to be included in Annalisa's email). >>> >>> I was looking at a Quora page but I seem to recall that there are other >>> websites that will let you set up a page that will feed from other sites. >>> The idea being that you can set up a page and determine multiple other >>> sites that will feed to it (e.g., the XMCA home page, Andy's Vimeo page, >>> etc.). Seems like there was even a feature that you can set so that it >>> will >>> regularly search the web and display new content that appears on the web >>> (e.g., you could set a search term for "cultural historical activity >>> theory" and there would be a section of the page that would display >>> everything that is recent on the web that relates to those search terms). >>> >>> I know there is at least one site out there that can do this but I can't >>> recall what it was called (I learned of it from Mike Wesch who used it >>> for >>> one of his classes). >>> >>> Huw or anyone else, do you know what I'm talking about? >>> >>> That was what I meant when I said that it would be minimal time to >>> maintain >>> and could be set up by anyone with minimal cost. >>> >>> But maybe that was all just a dream... >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Huw Lloyd >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 8 March 2015 at 18:40, wrote: >>>> [...] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> .Anyway, it seems like it would be an easy thing to set up. And anyone >>>>> could do it, right? >>>>> So why not prototype it and see what works and what doesn't? And then >>>>> refine as needed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> It is easy only to the extent that anyone could use their spontaneous >>>> notions of what is required. If they are persistent and thorough they >>>> >>>> >>> will >>> >>> >>>> end up with some conceptions regarding how certain mistakes might be >>>> avoided. If they reflected on that process with equal thoroughness, >>>> then >>>> they might end up with some concepts with which to start the work all >>>> >>>> >>> over >>> >>> >>>> again. >>>> >>>> So, no, it isn't easy. And it isn't actually cheap either. >>>> >>>> Huw >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Greg >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 7, 2015, at 10:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Andy, >>>>>> >>>>>> My apologies, I did not mean to sound suspicious, I sincerely thought >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> you both had something in mind. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> The site you link to doesn't look like a garden to me. It looks like >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> a >>> >>> >>>> regular website. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> How about these links below? >>>>>> >>>>>> The 1st site might be a drupal site, Drupal has something called >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> "drupal >>>> >>>> >>>>> planet" that will collect feeds, but I'm not sure how it works exactly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> [A feed assembly site might be more like a garden? Then there is no >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> need >>>> >>>> >>>>> for permissions, just program the newsfeed and it sucks in links from >>>>> various independent sites? Does wordpress do something like this?] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sites below are wordpress sites. >>>>>> >>>>>> The 5th is site is using Open Journal. >>>>>> >>>>>> Not sure what the 6th is, but I couldn't resist to see what a real >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> garden website might look like! :) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2015/3/5/ >>> four-knight-fellows-how-community-shapes-creativity/ >>> >>> >>>> or >>>>>> https://sweden.se/ >>>>>> https://sweden.se/society/gender-equality-in-sweden/ >>>>>> or >>>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/ >>>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/2014/10/15/the-first-female-typographer/ >>>>>> or >>>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/ >>>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/6-22-14/ >>>>>> or >>>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/issue/view/13 >>>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.3.002 >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, here is the bona fide garden site: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/ >>>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/sustainability/ >>>>>> >>>>>> On that happy note... >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > From smago@uga.edu Mon Mar 9 04:14:59 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 11:14:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: NYTimes: If an Algorithm Wrote This, How Would You Even Know? In-Reply-To: <1425854643513.237@unm.edu> References: <7D27E386-9CBE-4B06-B7D5-B2ADACB149C3@uga.edu>, <1425854643513.237@unm.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Annalisa, always a fresh perspective when you post. I have no expertise in such matters so can only speculate. These algorithms presumably are all designed by people, so we can't quite eliminate human artifactual presence from their composition. When I get an announcement from a web page such as academia.edu, I'm not expecting a person to be sending it, but rather a computer-generated, fill-in-the-blanks form notice. These statements have been around since long before computers, e.g., boilerplate documents such as wills. I'm mostly interested in this story as an issue of mediation. On the user end, I can mediate my conduct in relation to the computer-produced messages; I can go to academia.edu and download an interesting article, or go to a website when someone posts to Facebook and I get an automated alert. No problem there; I don't care who or what wrote the message, and would consider it cost-ineffective to have a person sitting around writing them. The generation of a whole news story is different, and I'm still thinking about why--the greater complexity and reliability of the information are salient factors. But from the standpoint of mediation as a function of a speaker's generating thoughts "at the point of utterance" (a phrase I take from Arthur Applebee) through the process of speaking and thus articulating inner speech into verbal text: The computer-generated text doesn't seem to have that capacity, although my dim understanding of how these things work may blind me to feedback loops that may well affect how content is generated. Complicated stuff! People are integrating themselves with machines more and more as the technology improves, e.g., prosthetics with computers installed in them, and who knows what in terms of google glass and other innovations. Perhaps someone out there who understands technology can help clarify some of the issues. p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2015 6:44 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: NYTimes: If an Algorithm Wrote This, How Would You Even Know? Hi Peter, This is an intriguing article. Thanks for posting it. I think it passed the Turing test for me, because I thought the first example was written by a person because it didn't have that much data, and the other example had too much data, but then I was comparing them, so it's not a clean Turing test. I would like to clarify to the esteemed others on our beloved list that a feed is an automated script (which would live at XMCA server) that would ping other sites (like the way a radar works) and capture links from these offsite websites. These links (and perhaps a truncated blurb of text) would display on the xmca homepage, with the idea that there would be no need to control permissions on the server once the feed script was set up. At least that's the idea, it may be more complex than that (Huw??), but it is worth exploring because it means that any XMCA author could be in charge of one's own content, as a blog or any other digital content offsite from XMCA and the links would appear (ideally) at the XMCA homepage, making it a kind of clearinghouse for current events in the community in terms of other published content appearing on the web. Of course we might want to remember that this will likely generate more discussion in the wider community, which would be a good thing, but have we the server horsepower? Just asking... If any one is on Academia, this is happening when you get notifications that Andy has uploaded a new draft of a paper, for example (if one is following him there obviously. Andy has not become that ubiquitous just yet!!!) So instead of this feed appearing as an email (though it could do that), it appears as a list or stream at the XMCA website. Another thought: There is the possibility of creating filters and tags and this would enable the feed to create topical pages that list links there so that one isn't seeing a flood of unsorted links, but that they are grouped based upon their tags/filters. Of course this isn't computer generated text as is described in the NYT article, but I realized that non-technical folks may not understand what a feed is. So I thought I'd try explaining that. Anyone, please feel free to add to what I've said, I don't mind. Kind regards, Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Mon Mar 9 04:53:19 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2015 22:53:19 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> <54FBD70C.5030001@mira.net> <1425793338779.7070@unm.edu> <1425793404366.6718@unm.edu> <0DE004BA-1D95-47DD-8D35-2BC190C87952@gmail.com> <54FCDFAC.2090903@mira.net> Message-ID: <54FD89AF.3020407@mira.net> Well, the "X" in "XMCA" means eXtended, you know. But be that as it may, what software would you recommend for a low maintenance on-line community CHAT garden? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Huw Lloyd wrote: > I don't think you'd need it to support MCA, Andy. MCA is a different > project to that of communicating CHAT concepts, practices and resources. > MCA endeavours to do a portion of that, in a particular way. XMCA usually > reflects a certain impatience with that, it reflects a need to work over, > discuss and critique the knowledge and concepts themselves rather than > papers built out of a few personalised conceptions related to CHAT. > > MCA helps academics keep their publication count up and it helps to keep > CHAT ideas in circulation within academic settings. But I am not convinced > that CHAT can be successfully accommodated by educational institutions as > we know them. So, the point is to take an educational project based on > CHAT principles (which can often be taken as a scientific exposition of > common good sense) and build a truer educational resource out of it. That > kind of effort necessitates 'gardening' both for the production of > resources and for their accommodation. > > Huw > > > > On 8 March 2015 at 23:47, Andy Blunden wrote: > > >> How would you implement a "community garden" to support MCA and xmca, Huw? >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >> >>> Well I wrote a server-side library to achieve a broader version of that 5 >>> years ago. But that is peripheral to what Andy's question is about. >>> >>> Huw >>> >>> On 8 March 2015 at 21:34, Greg Thompson >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Ha! Huw, I was looking at another, much simpler way of doing a feed than >>>> what Annalisa had shown (and I don't really know how I got there since it >>>> doesn't seem to be included in Annalisa's email). >>>> >>>> I was looking at a Quora page but I seem to recall that there are other >>>> websites that will let you set up a page that will feed from other sites. >>>> The idea being that you can set up a page and determine multiple other >>>> sites that will feed to it (e.g., the XMCA home page, Andy's Vimeo page, >>>> etc.). Seems like there was even a feature that you can set so that it >>>> will >>>> regularly search the web and display new content that appears on the web >>>> (e.g., you could set a search term for "cultural historical activity >>>> theory" and there would be a section of the page that would display >>>> everything that is recent on the web that relates to those search terms). >>>> >>>> I know there is at least one site out there that can do this but I can't >>>> recall what it was called (I learned of it from Mike Wesch who used it >>>> for >>>> one of his classes). >>>> >>>> Huw or anyone else, do you know what I'm talking about? >>>> >>>> That was what I meant when I said that it would be minimal time to >>>> maintain >>>> and could be set up by anyone with minimal cost. >>>> >>>> But maybe that was all just a dream... >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Huw Lloyd >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 8 March 2015 at 18:40, wrote: >>>>> [...] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> .Anyway, it seems like it would be an easy thing to set up. And anyone >>>>>> could do it, right? >>>>>> So why not prototype it and see what works and what doesn't? And then >>>>>> refine as needed. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> It is easy only to the extent that anyone could use their spontaneous >>>>> notions of what is required. If they are persistent and thorough they >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> will >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> end up with some conceptions regarding how certain mistakes might be >>>>> avoided. If they reflected on that process with equal thoroughness, >>>>> then >>>>> they might end up with some concepts with which to start the work all >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> over >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> again. >>>>> >>>>> So, no, it isn't easy. And it isn't actually cheap either. >>>>> >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Greg >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2015, at 10:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Andy, >>>>>> >>>>>>> My apologies, I did not mean to sound suspicious, I sincerely thought >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> you both had something in mind. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> The site you link to doesn't look like a garden to me. It looks like >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> a >>>>>> >>>> >>>>> regular website. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> How about these links below? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The 1st site might be a drupal site, Drupal has something called >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> "drupal >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> planet" that will collect feeds, but I'm not sure how it works exactly. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> [A feed assembly site might be more like a garden? Then there is no >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> need >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> for permissions, just program the newsfeed and it sucks in links from >>>>>> various independent sites? Does wordpress do something like this?] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sites below are wordpress sites. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The 5th is site is using Open Journal. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not sure what the 6th is, but I couldn't resist to see what a real >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> garden website might look like! :) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2015/3/5/ >>>>>> >>>> four-knight-fellows-how-community-shapes-creativity/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> or >>>>> >>>>>>> https://sweden.se/ >>>>>>> https://sweden.se/society/gender-equality-in-sweden/ >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/ >>>>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/2014/10/15/the-first-female-typographer/ >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/ >>>>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/6-22-14/ >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/issue/view/13 >>>>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.3.002 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, here is the bona fide garden site: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/ >>>>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/sustainability/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On that happy note... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Mar 9 05:10:49 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 12:10:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: <54FD89AF.3020407@mira.net> References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F90BA7.8040807@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> <54FBD70C.5030001@mira.net> <1425793338779.7070@unm.edu> <1425793404366.6718@unm.edu> <0DE004BA-1D95-47DD-8D35-2BC190C87952@gmail.com> <54FCDFAC.2090903@mira.net> <54FD89AF.3020407@mira.net> Message-ID: The foswiki software. On 9 March 2015 at 11:53, Andy Blunden wrote: > Well, the "X" in "XMCA" means eXtended, you know. But be that as it may, > what software would you recommend for a low maintenance on-line community > CHAT garden? > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> I don't think you'd need it to support MCA, Andy. MCA is a different >> project to that of communicating CHAT concepts, practices and resources. >> MCA endeavours to do a portion of that, in a particular way. XMCA usually >> reflects a certain impatience with that, it reflects a need to work over, >> discuss and critique the knowledge and concepts themselves rather than >> papers built out of a few personalised conceptions related to CHAT. >> >> MCA helps academics keep their publication count up and it helps to keep >> CHAT ideas in circulation within academic settings. But I am not >> convinced >> that CHAT can be successfully accommodated by educational institutions as >> we know them. So, the point is to take an educational project based on >> CHAT principles (which can often be taken as a scientific exposition of >> common good sense) and build a truer educational resource out of it. That >> kind of effort necessitates 'gardening' both for the production of >> resources and for their accommodation. >> >> Huw >> >> >> >> On 8 March 2015 at 23:47, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> >> >>> How would you implement a "community garden" to support MCA and xmca, >>> Huw? >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> Huw Lloyd wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Well I wrote a server-side library to achieve a broader version of that >>>> 5 >>>> years ago. But that is peripheral to what Andy's question is about. >>>> >>>> Huw >>>> >>>> On 8 March 2015 at 21:34, Greg Thompson >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Ha! Huw, I was looking at another, much simpler way of doing a feed >>>>> than >>>>> what Annalisa had shown (and I don't really know how I got there since >>>>> it >>>>> doesn't seem to be included in Annalisa's email). >>>>> >>>>> I was looking at a Quora page but I seem to recall that there are other >>>>> websites that will let you set up a page that will feed from other >>>>> sites. >>>>> The idea being that you can set up a page and determine multiple other >>>>> sites that will feed to it (e.g., the XMCA home page, Andy's Vimeo >>>>> page, >>>>> etc.). Seems like there was even a feature that you can set so that it >>>>> will >>>>> regularly search the web and display new content that appears on the >>>>> web >>>>> (e.g., you could set a search term for "cultural historical activity >>>>> theory" and there would be a section of the page that would display >>>>> everything that is recent on the web that relates to those search >>>>> terms). >>>>> >>>>> I know there is at least one site out there that can do this but I >>>>> can't >>>>> recall what it was called (I learned of it from Mike Wesch who used it >>>>> for >>>>> one of his classes). >>>>> >>>>> Huw or anyone else, do you know what I'm talking about? >>>>> >>>>> That was what I meant when I said that it would be minimal time to >>>>> maintain >>>>> and could be set up by anyone with minimal cost. >>>>> >>>>> But maybe that was all just a dream... >>>>> -greg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Huw Lloyd >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 8 March 2015 at 18:40, wrote: >>>>>> [...] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> .Anyway, it seems like it would be an easy thing to set up. And >>>>>>> anyone >>>>>>> could do it, right? >>>>>>> So why not prototype it and see what works and what doesn't? And then >>>>>>> refine as needed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> It is easy only to the extent that anyone could use their spontaneous >>>>>> notions of what is required. If they are persistent and thorough they >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> will >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> end up with some conceptions regarding how certain mistakes might be >>>>>> avoided. If they reflected on that process with equal thoroughness, >>>>>> then >>>>>> they might end up with some concepts with which to start the work all >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> over >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> again. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, no, it isn't easy. And it isn't actually cheap either. >>>>>> >>>>>> Huw >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Greg >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2015, at 10:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Andy, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My apologies, I did not mean to sound suspicious, I sincerely >>>>>>>> thought >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> you both had something in mind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The site you link to doesn't look like a garden to me. It looks like >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> regular website. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How about these links below? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The 1st site might be a drupal site, Drupal has something called >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> "drupal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> planet" that will collect feeds, but I'm not sure how it works >>>>>>> exactly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [A feed assembly site might be more like a garden? Then there is no >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> need >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> for permissions, just program the newsfeed and it sucks in links from >>>>>>> various independent sites? Does wordpress do something like this?] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sites below are wordpress sites. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The 5th is site is using Open Journal. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Not sure what the 6th is, but I couldn't resist to see what a real >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> garden website might look like! :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2015/3/5/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> four-knight-fellows-how-community-shapes-creativity/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> or >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> https://sweden.se/ >>>>>>>> https://sweden.se/society/gender-equality-in-sweden/ >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/ >>>>>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/2014/10/15/the-first-female-typographer/ >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/ >>>>>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/6-22-14/ >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/issue/view/13 >>>>>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.3.002 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of course, here is the bona fide garden site: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/ >>>>>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/sustainability/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On that happy note... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > From ablunden@mira.net Mon Mar 9 05:19:03 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2015 23:19:03 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> <54FBD70C.5030001@mira.net> <1425793338779.7070@unm.edu> <1425793404366.6718@unm.edu> <0DE004BA-1D95-47DD-8D35-2BC190C87952@gmail.com> <54FCDFAC.2090903@mira.net> <54FD89AF.3020407@mira.net> Message-ID: <54FD8FB7.204@mira.net> OK, so we have one foswiki page on http://wiki.lchc.ucsd.edu/ already. Perhaps we could call for volunteers to create a couple more. A single plot does not a community garden make. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Huw Lloyd wrote: > The foswiki software. > > > On 9 March 2015 at 11:53, Andy Blunden wrote: > > >> Well, the "X" in "XMCA" means eXtended, you know. But be that as it may, >> what software would you recommend for a low maintenance on-line community >> CHAT garden? >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >> >>> I don't think you'd need it to support MCA, Andy. MCA is a different >>> project to that of communicating CHAT concepts, practices and resources. >>> MCA endeavours to do a portion of that, in a particular way. XMCA usually >>> reflects a certain impatience with that, it reflects a need to work over, >>> discuss and critique the knowledge and concepts themselves rather than >>> papers built out of a few personalised conceptions related to CHAT. >>> >>> MCA helps academics keep their publication count up and it helps to keep >>> CHAT ideas in circulation within academic settings. But I am not >>> convinced >>> that CHAT can be successfully accommodated by educational institutions as >>> we know them. So, the point is to take an educational project based on >>> CHAT principles (which can often be taken as a scientific exposition of >>> common good sense) and build a truer educational resource out of it. That >>> kind of effort necessitates 'gardening' both for the production of >>> resources and for their accommodation. >>> >>> Huw >>> >>> >>> >>> On 8 March 2015 at 23:47, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> How would you implement a "community garden" to support MCA and xmca, >>>> Huw? >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Huw Lloyd wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Well I wrote a server-side library to achieve a broader version of that >>>>> 5 >>>>> years ago. But that is peripheral to what Andy's question is about. >>>>> >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> On 8 March 2015 at 21:34, Greg Thompson >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Ha! Huw, I was looking at another, much simpler way of doing a feed >>>>>> than >>>>>> what Annalisa had shown (and I don't really know how I got there since >>>>>> it >>>>>> doesn't seem to be included in Annalisa's email). >>>>>> >>>>>> I was looking at a Quora page but I seem to recall that there are other >>>>>> websites that will let you set up a page that will feed from other >>>>>> sites. >>>>>> The idea being that you can set up a page and determine multiple other >>>>>> sites that will feed to it (e.g., the XMCA home page, Andy's Vimeo >>>>>> page, >>>>>> etc.). Seems like there was even a feature that you can set so that it >>>>>> will >>>>>> regularly search the web and display new content that appears on the >>>>>> web >>>>>> (e.g., you could set a search term for "cultural historical activity >>>>>> theory" and there would be a section of the page that would display >>>>>> everything that is recent on the web that relates to those search >>>>>> terms). >>>>>> >>>>>> I know there is at least one site out there that can do this but I >>>>>> can't >>>>>> recall what it was called (I learned of it from Mike Wesch who used it >>>>>> for >>>>>> one of his classes). >>>>>> >>>>>> Huw or anyone else, do you know what I'm talking about? >>>>>> >>>>>> That was what I meant when I said that it would be minimal time to >>>>>> maintain >>>>>> and could be set up by anyone with minimal cost. >>>>>> >>>>>> But maybe that was all just a dream... >>>>>> -greg >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Huw Lloyd >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 8 March 2015 at 18:40, wrote: >>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> .Anyway, it seems like it would be an easy thing to set up. And >>>>>>>> anyone >>>>>>>> could do it, right? >>>>>>>> So why not prototype it and see what works and what doesn't? And then >>>>>>>> refine as needed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is easy only to the extent that anyone could use their spontaneous >>>>>>> notions of what is required. If they are persistent and thorough they >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> will >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> end up with some conceptions regarding how certain mistakes might be >>>>>>> avoided. If they reflected on that process with equal thoroughness, >>>>>>> then >>>>>>> they might end up with some concepts with which to start the work all >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> over >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> again. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, no, it isn't easy. And it isn't actually cheap either. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Greg >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2015, at 10:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Andy, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My apologies, I did not mean to sound suspicious, I sincerely >>>>>>>>> thought >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> you both had something in mind. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The site you link to doesn't look like a garden to me. It looks like >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> regular website. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> How about these links below? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The 1st site might be a drupal site, Drupal has something called >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "drupal >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> planet" that will collect feeds, but I'm not sure how it works >>>>>>>> exactly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> [A feed assembly site might be more like a garden? Then there is no >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> for permissions, just program the newsfeed and it sucks in links from >>>>>>>> various independent sites? Does wordpress do something like this?] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sites below are wordpress sites. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The 5th is site is using Open Journal. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Not sure what the 6th is, but I couldn't resist to see what a real >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> garden website might look like! :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2015/3/5/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> four-knight-fellows-how-community-shapes-creativity/ >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://sweden.se/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://sweden.se/society/gender-equality-in-sweden/ >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/ >>>>>>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/2014/10/15/the-first-female-typographer/ >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/ >>>>>>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/6-22-14/ >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/issue/view/13 >>>>>>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.3.002 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of course, here is the bona fide garden site: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/ >>>>>>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/sustainability/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On that happy note... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Mar 9 05:23:06 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 12:23:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: <54FD8FB7.204@mira.net> References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> <54FBD70C.5030001@mira.net> <1425793338779.7070@unm.edu> <1425793404366.6718@unm.edu> <0DE004BA-1D95-47DD-8D35-2BC190C87952@gmail.com> <54FCDFAC.2090903@mira.net> <54FD89AF.3020407@mira.net> <54FD8FB7.204@mira.net> Message-ID: http://foswiki.org/About.ExampleSites On 9 March 2015 at 12:19, Andy Blunden wrote: > OK, so we have one foswiki page on http://wiki.lchc.ucsd.edu/ already. > Perhaps we could call for volunteers to create a couple more. > A single plot does not a community garden make. > > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> The foswiki software. >> >> >> On 9 March 2015 at 11:53, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> >> >>> Well, the "X" in "XMCA" means eXtended, you know. But be that as it may, >>> what software would you recommend for a low maintenance on-line community >>> CHAT garden? >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> Huw Lloyd wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> I don't think you'd need it to support MCA, Andy. MCA is a different >>>> project to that of communicating CHAT concepts, practices and resources. >>>> MCA endeavours to do a portion of that, in a particular way. XMCA >>>> usually >>>> reflects a certain impatience with that, it reflects a need to work >>>> over, >>>> discuss and critique the knowledge and concepts themselves rather than >>>> papers built out of a few personalised conceptions related to CHAT. >>>> >>>> MCA helps academics keep their publication count up and it helps to keep >>>> CHAT ideas in circulation within academic settings. But I am not >>>> convinced >>>> that CHAT can be successfully accommodated by educational institutions >>>> as >>>> we know them. So, the point is to take an educational project based on >>>> CHAT principles (which can often be taken as a scientific exposition of >>>> common good sense) and build a truer educational resource out of it. >>>> That >>>> kind of effort necessitates 'gardening' both for the production of >>>> resources and for their accommodation. >>>> >>>> Huw >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 8 March 2015 at 23:47, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> How would you implement a "community garden" to support MCA and xmca, >>>>> Huw? >>>>> Andy >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Huw Lloyd wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Well I wrote a server-side library to achieve a broader version of >>>>>> that >>>>>> 5 >>>>>> years ago. But that is peripheral to what Andy's question is about. >>>>>> >>>>>> Huw >>>>>> >>>>>> On 8 March 2015 at 21:34, Greg Thompson >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Ha! Huw, I was looking at another, much simpler way of doing a feed >>>>>>> than >>>>>>> what Annalisa had shown (and I don't really know how I got there >>>>>>> since >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> doesn't seem to be included in Annalisa's email). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was looking at a Quora page but I seem to recall that there are >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> websites that will let you set up a page that will feed from other >>>>>>> sites. >>>>>>> The idea being that you can set up a page and determine multiple >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> sites that will feed to it (e.g., the XMCA home page, Andy's Vimeo >>>>>>> page, >>>>>>> etc.). Seems like there was even a feature that you can set so that >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> regularly search the web and display new content that appears on the >>>>>>> web >>>>>>> (e.g., you could set a search term for "cultural historical activity >>>>>>> theory" and there would be a section of the page that would display >>>>>>> everything that is recent on the web that relates to those search >>>>>>> terms). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know there is at least one site out there that can do this but I >>>>>>> can't >>>>>>> recall what it was called (I learned of it from Mike Wesch who used >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> one of his classes). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Huw or anyone else, do you know what I'm talking about? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That was what I meant when I said that it would be minimal time to >>>>>>> maintain >>>>>>> and could be set up by anyone with minimal cost. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But maybe that was all just a dream... >>>>>>> -greg >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Huw Lloyd >>>>>> > >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 8 March 2015 at 18:40, wrote: >>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> .Anyway, it seems like it would be an easy thing to set up. And >>>>>>>>> anyone >>>>>>>>> could do it, right? >>>>>>>>> So why not prototype it and see what works and what doesn't? And >>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>> refine as needed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is easy only to the extent that anyone could use their >>>>>>>> spontaneous >>>>>>>> notions of what is required. If they are persistent and thorough >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> end up with some conceptions regarding how certain mistakes might be >>>>>>>> avoided. If they reflected on that process with equal thoroughness, >>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>> they might end up with some concepts with which to start the work >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> over >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, no, it isn't easy. And it isn't actually cheap either. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Greg >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2015, at 10:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Andy, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> My apologies, I did not mean to sound suspicious, I sincerely >>>>>>>>>> thought >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> you both had something in mind. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The site you link to doesn't look like a garden to me. It looks >>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> regular website. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> How about these links below? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The 1st site might be a drupal site, Drupal has something called >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "drupal >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> planet" that will collect feeds, but I'm not sure how it works >>>>>>>>> exactly. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [A feed assembly site might be more like a garden? Then there is >>>>>>>>>> no >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> for permissions, just program the newsfeed and it sucks in links >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> various independent sites? Does wordpress do something like this?] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sites below are wordpress sites. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The 5th is site is using Open Journal. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Not sure what the 6th is, but I couldn't resist to see what a real >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> garden website might look like! :) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2015/3/5/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> four-knight-fellows-how-community-shapes-creativity/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://sweden.se/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://sweden.se/society/gender-equality-in-sweden/ >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/ >>>>>>>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/2014/10/15/the-first-female- >>>>>>>>>> typographer/ >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/ >>>>>>>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/6-22-14/ >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/issue/view/13 >>>>>>>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.3.002 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of course, here is the bona fide garden site: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/ >>>>>>>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/sustainability/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On that happy note... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Mar 9 05:25:45 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 12:25:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> <54FBD70C.5030001@mira.net> <1425793338779.7070@unm.edu> <1425793404366.6718@unm.edu> <0DE004BA-1D95-47DD-8D35-2BC190C87952@gmail.com> <54FCDFAC.2090903@mira.net> <54FD89AF.3020407@mira.net> <54FD8FB7.204@mira.net> Message-ID: And the CHAT page on the link is here: http://wiki.lchc.ucsd.edu/CHAT/WebHome On 9 March 2015 at 12:23, Huw Lloyd wrote: > http://foswiki.org/About.ExampleSites > > On 9 March 2015 at 12:19, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> OK, so we have one foswiki page on http://wiki.lchc.ucsd.edu/ already. >> Perhaps we could call for volunteers to create a couple more. >> A single plot does not a community garden make. >> >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >>> The foswiki software. >>> >>> >>> On 9 March 2015 at 11:53, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Well, the "X" in "XMCA" means eXtended, you know. But be that as it may, >>>> what software would you recommend for a low maintenance on-line >>>> community >>>> CHAT garden? >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Huw Lloyd wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> I don't think you'd need it to support MCA, Andy. MCA is a different >>>>> project to that of communicating CHAT concepts, practices and >>>>> resources. >>>>> MCA endeavours to do a portion of that, in a particular way. XMCA >>>>> usually >>>>> reflects a certain impatience with that, it reflects a need to work >>>>> over, >>>>> discuss and critique the knowledge and concepts themselves rather than >>>>> papers built out of a few personalised conceptions related to CHAT. >>>>> >>>>> MCA helps academics keep their publication count up and it helps to >>>>> keep >>>>> CHAT ideas in circulation within academic settings. But I am not >>>>> convinced >>>>> that CHAT can be successfully accommodated by educational institutions >>>>> as >>>>> we know them. So, the point is to take an educational project based on >>>>> CHAT principles (which can often be taken as a scientific exposition of >>>>> common good sense) and build a truer educational resource out of it. >>>>> That >>>>> kind of effort necessitates 'gardening' both for the production of >>>>> resources and for their accommodation. >>>>> >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 8 March 2015 at 23:47, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> How would you implement a "community garden" to support MCA and xmca, >>>>>> Huw? >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Huw Lloyd wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Well I wrote a server-side library to achieve a broader version of >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> 5 >>>>>>> years ago. But that is peripheral to what Andy's question is about. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 8 March 2015 at 21:34, Greg Thompson >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ha! Huw, I was looking at another, much simpler way of doing a feed >>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>> what Annalisa had shown (and I don't really know how I got there >>>>>>>> since >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> doesn't seem to be included in Annalisa's email). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was looking at a Quora page but I seem to recall that there are >>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>> websites that will let you set up a page that will feed from other >>>>>>>> sites. >>>>>>>> The idea being that you can set up a page and determine multiple >>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>> sites that will feed to it (e.g., the XMCA home page, Andy's Vimeo >>>>>>>> page, >>>>>>>> etc.). Seems like there was even a feature that you can set so that >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> regularly search the web and display new content that appears on the >>>>>>>> web >>>>>>>> (e.g., you could set a search term for "cultural historical activity >>>>>>>> theory" and there would be a section of the page that would display >>>>>>>> everything that is recent on the web that relates to those search >>>>>>>> terms). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know there is at least one site out there that can do this but I >>>>>>>> can't >>>>>>>> recall what it was called (I learned of it from Mike Wesch who used >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> one of his classes). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Huw or anyone else, do you know what I'm talking about? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That was what I meant when I said that it would be minimal time to >>>>>>>> maintain >>>>>>>> and could be set up by anyone with minimal cost. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But maybe that was all just a dream... >>>>>>>> -greg >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Huw Lloyd < >>>>>>>> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 8 March 2015 at 18:40, wrote: >>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> .Anyway, it seems like it would be an easy thing to set up. And >>>>>>>>>> anyone >>>>>>>>>> could do it, right? >>>>>>>>>> So why not prototype it and see what works and what doesn't? And >>>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>>> refine as needed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It is easy only to the extent that anyone could use their >>>>>>>>> spontaneous >>>>>>>>> notions of what is required. If they are persistent and thorough >>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> end up with some conceptions regarding how certain mistakes might >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> avoided. If they reflected on that process with equal >>>>>>>>> thoroughness, >>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>> they might end up with some concepts with which to start the work >>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> over >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> again. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So, no, it isn't easy. And it isn't actually cheap either. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Greg >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2015, at 10:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Andy, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> My apologies, I did not mean to sound suspicious, I sincerely >>>>>>>>>>> thought >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> you both had something in mind. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The site you link to doesn't look like a garden to me. It looks >>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> regular website. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> How about these links below? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The 1st site might be a drupal site, Drupal has something called >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "drupal >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> planet" that will collect feeds, but I'm not sure how it works >>>>>>>>>> exactly. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> [A feed assembly site might be more like a garden? Then there is >>>>>>>>>>> no >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> for permissions, just program the newsfeed and it sucks in links >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> various independent sites? Does wordpress do something like this?] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sites below are wordpress sites. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The 5th is site is using Open Journal. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Not sure what the 6th is, but I couldn't resist to see what a >>>>>>>>>>> real >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> garden website might look like! :) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2015/3/5/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> four-knight-fellows-how-community-shapes-creativity/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://sweden.se/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://sweden.se/society/gender-equality-in-sweden/ >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/ >>>>>>>>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/2014/10/15/the-first-female- >>>>>>>>>>> typographer/ >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/ >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/6-22-14/ >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/issue/view/13 >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.3.002 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Of course, here is the bona fide garden site: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/ >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/sustainability/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On that happy note... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > From glassman.13@osu.edu Mon Mar 9 05:31:52 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 12:31:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> References: , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Hi Annalisa, I wonder if the role of culture is not so much in determining how we do use tools as into how we should be wary of using tools. Culture is by its nature I think centripetal in nature. Tools, especially such as the Internet tend to be centrifugal. Should we depend on culture to put constraints on our uses. There is a phrase I first heard two years ago that now I seem to hear every other week, "If you have a really good hammer, everything starts to look like a nail." Really good technologies start to make everything look like a nail it seems - especially in our medicine show society where we run towards the next barker/grafter before we are done cursing out the last for the damage he/she has done. I think in this sense Heidegger's "On the Question of Technology" is a profound mea culpa that every person working in technology should be forced to read and discuss on an annual basis - the dangers of becoming too enamored with the hammer. Culture has its own dangers thought that I think we also must own up to. It wants to stay a centripetal force, bring everything back in, keep things as they are. The (perhaps dialectical) relationship between tools and culture - I think Vygotsky caught the mood, these are the things both dreams and nightmares are made of. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2015 7:30 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference Hi Michael, Comparing the Internet to the printing press, they possess similarities, but it would be like comparing a worldwide shipping system (with trucks, trains, and ships, and docks, and longshore men, etc) to an Ancient Egyptian chariot. Perhaps. I say that since only certain people could enjoy chariots, which required at least a horse and a driver; not everyone had a printing press, or a book, and few could read. Nothing about the printing press itself that predicts distribution. That is more the desire for knowledge, and at that time it was combined with the desire to know the Bible. Other content came later. And then the judgements of who was allowed to learn to read and to write (as well as to read and to write what). It is an interesting project to compare them, however. I would like to emphasize what you said, Michael, that we still don't know what the Internet is doing to us. It is still not clear how the tool will change us: how we will augment to tool and how it will change us in the M?bius strip kind of way. If it's OK, I would like to repeat something I said in the recent past that I think that even Marx (or Vygotsky) could predict the Internet. Seems Orwell was closer in some ways. In 1992, for example, I had no idea what the WWW was. In 1994 I learned about BBS, FTP, newsgroups, and email, though I know these tools were around a lot longer than when I learned of it. So if we can't know and we are here living through these developments in real time, how could Marx? How could Vygotsky? I believe there is a quality about these tools that does transcend their 19th and 20th century consciousnesses. Some things are going to be constant, say that humans still need food to eat. But do we need selfies? Do we need Facebook pages? I liked your Mumfordesque comparison to clocks and how they changed our sense of time, and their creation of boundaries where there are actually none (or there are just signifiers of: sun out/sun not out). Of course, the clock also changed how we sleep, since we can do things later by lamplight (and later by lightbulb) and so we go to sleep later than we used to. This is to point out that it isn't a tool in isolation that changes us, but in the environment in which it appears, as well as other historic and cultural realities and also how one tool interacts with other tools and importantly with the people who use them. I take it everyone here already knows that, so I don't meant to belabor that and give the impression that I think you don't! :) Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Mar 9 08:49:01 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 08:49:01 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] LCHC back online, last day for polling Message-ID: ?The nice folks at UCSD found a glitch in their software and repaired it yesterday, so LCHC is online and you have vote on article for discussion at lchc.ucsd.edu/xmca We will be closing the polls at the end of the day and then arranging to make the chosen article available free on the journal website. mike? -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Mar 9 17:09:55 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 00:09:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu>, <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <1425946194298.23103@unm.edu> Hi Michael, First I want to apologize that in my previous email, I made some errors. Apparently, I seem to have a problem with double negatives either adding them in or leaving them out which provides the opposite meaning that I intended. Of course, just as in speech, we can correct ourselves on the list. I hope I can show myself not to be attempting perfection here but rather exploration, which is always not going to be well formed nor well polished. But what good thinking is? Just look at the work of Vygotsky and how much we ponder indefinitely, "What did he MEAN when he said THAT?" So... with regard to Marx and Vygotsky and their 19th and 20th century sensibilities and how their consciousnesses align with the development of the Internet [which feels strange to say, because I see consciousness as singular not plural, but OK that's a different debate all together. :) ]. First, I am not being dismissive of their contributions; I am not saying nothing that they say applies. I am merely saying what I think is obvious: that they could not anticipate what the Internet would do to us, because even we cannot. Likewise, I don't think we could be so bold as to say what technologies actually do to us to undertake deep space travel, if we ever were to be able to legitimately do that without our bodies turning into mole-like enigmas of flesh, held for light years in non-gravity metal rocket shipping containers. I know that Vint Cerf was working out how to sort out interplanetary IP addresses about 20 years ago, which I thought when I learned about it, to be very peculiar thing, as I don't believe that it's a problem yet. Maybe it's the Deep Space Boy Scout ethic. I don't know. I'm happy dealing with this lovely planet we find ourselves, and I am more concerned with the problems here on the surface (like the Fukushima crisis), than introducing new ones brought into our lives by intrepid space-travel fetishists, and these astronauts do not look like walking cooked spinach yet. Having said that, I'm OK with science fiction and science fantasy, and I do mourn the loss of Leonard Nimoy. Here's an aside: I wonder what Wittgenstein would have made of Mr. Spock. We know Ludwig loved American detective magazines. Would he have enjoyed Star Trek? Star Wars? Babylon 5? Battlestar Galactica? I do not know. But regards to the theory: we can employ the frameworks that we have inherited from Marx and Vygotsky (and other theorists), and apply them. Of course... the theories will shift as we use them. If they don't shift, then all problems do become nails, and so we perhaps should never consider our hammers always to be perfectly wrought tools, but instead prototypes that always beckon us to come up with a better design. Just like a theory is never finished, neither is a tool, or the meaning of a word. At some point, however our prototypes become "normalized" and then it becomes about reinventing wheels, or a better mousetrap, or the tool becomes free swag at the next specialty convention or conference, as with calculators, and then?landfill. Additionally, the problems that the tool was meant to solve suddenly becomes less troublesome, less magically solved, less novel in existence. In the tool's wake there are always behind it new problems caused by these new solutions, and we are back to the drawing board again and again and again. You remind me Michael that I have On the Question of Technology on my shelf and I need to read that. So thanks for reminding me. I'd like to recommend to the list a good book on Heidegger by Iain Thomson called, "Heidegger On Ontotheology: Technology and the Politics of Education" (2005). I did enjoy your thought sculpture of centrifugal internets and centripetal cultures. In answering your question, "Should we depend on culture to put constraints on our uses." The libertarian technocrats have it (from what I sense) that technology can solve all the problems that technology cause us, and we only live in a monoculture, so why should we constrain anything? Those of us concerned with the philosophy of design, know that this doesn't work but only sustains the same version of the problem just in a different device. If we shield our eyes while looking back on history, technology seems to create more complex realities than fostering simpler ones. There is more to it than that, but I'll leave that there for now. So this seems to indicate that culture is the only way to constrain our uses of the tool. I would offer however that instead of centrifugal vs centripetal, perhaps it is more a double helix whereby one side may appear to twist more intensely than the other, from a distance, when actually they are traveling in parallel, in a spiral, close up. So I don't see tools as inward pointing outward, and culture as outward pointing inward exactly, but I appreciate why you depict it that way. I also like the endeavor of rendering Vygotsky's dreams and asking what they were made of. Kind regards, Annalisa From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Mar 9 17:14:32 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 09:14:32 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Halliday says that the tape recorder is probably the second most important technological development in linguistics (the printing press, which he correctly ascribes to China and not to Gutenberg, is the first). It was with the printing press that private reading really became practical--reading became an intra-mental activity, a kind of socialized inner speech. But it was with the tape recorder that the clear distinctness (temporal and lexicogrammatical) between written and spoken speech became clear for the first time. Nevertheless, the tape recorder has had an impact on pedagogy that is almost negligible. In EFL, where I now work, it served to make a huge amount of money for the distributors of language laboratories. But language laboratories worked by fencing learners into cubicles, and replacing the subject-subject relation we find in natural language use with a subject-object relation which we find in crude versions of Activity Theory. There are now language laboratories lying unused in almost every major university on earth. Halliday ALSO says this: whenever we try to replace an evolved solution (like face to face pedagogy) with a designed or an invented one (like the language laboratory, or asynchronous CMC based instruction), the first attempt almost always fails. The reason why it fails is that it overemphasizes the hardware and underemphasizes the interface. The most spectacular example of this (according to Halliday) was the collapse of volitionally planned economy in the Soviet Union, but a counter-example is the way the land reform was carried out in China in the 1950s (when Halliday was there and in which he took an active part). David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 9 March 2015 at 21:31, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hi Annalisa, > > I wonder if the role of culture is not so much in determining how we do > use tools as into how we should be wary of using tools. Culture is by its > nature I think centripetal in nature. Tools, especially such as the > Internet tend to be centrifugal. Should we depend on culture to put > constraints on our uses. > > There is a phrase I first heard two years ago that now I seem to hear > every other week, "If you have a really good hammer, everything starts to > look like a nail." Really good technologies start to make everything look > like a nail it seems - especially in our medicine show society where we run > towards the next barker/grafter before we are done cursing out the last for > the damage he/she has done. > > I think in this sense Heidegger's "On the Question of Technology" is a > profound mea culpa that every person working in technology should be forced > to read and discuss on an annual basis - the dangers of becoming too > enamored with the hammer. > > Culture has its own dangers thought that I think we also must own up to. > It wants to stay a centripetal force, bring everything back in, keep things > as they are. The (perhaps dialectical) relationship between tools and > culture - I think Vygotsky caught the mood, these are the things both > dreams and nightmares are made of. > > Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2015 7:30 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference > > Hi Michael, > > Comparing the Internet to the printing press, they possess similarities, > but it would be like comparing a worldwide shipping system (with trucks, > trains, and ships, and docks, and longshore men, etc) to an Ancient > Egyptian chariot. Perhaps. I say that since only certain people could enjoy > chariots, which required at least a horse and a driver; not everyone had a > printing press, or a book, and few could read. Nothing about the printing > press itself that predicts distribution. That is more the desire for > knowledge, and at that time it was combined with the desire to know the > Bible. Other content came later. And then the judgements of who was allowed > to learn to read and to write (as well as to read and to write what). > > It is an interesting project to compare them, however. > > I would like to emphasize what you said, Michael, that we still don't know > what the Internet is doing to us. It is still not clear how the tool will > change us: how we will augment to tool and how it will change us in the > M?bius strip kind of way. > > If it's OK, I would like to repeat something I said in the recent past > that I think that even Marx (or Vygotsky) could predict the Internet. Seems > Orwell was closer in some ways. In 1992, for example, I had no idea what > the WWW was. In 1994 I learned about BBS, FTP, newsgroups, and email, > though I know these tools were around a lot longer than when I learned of > it. > > So if we can't know and we are here living through these developments in > real time, how could Marx? How could Vygotsky? I believe there is a quality > about these tools that does transcend their 19th and 20th century > consciousnesses. Some things are going to be constant, say that humans > still need food to eat. But do we need selfies? Do we need Facebook pages? > > I liked your Mumfordesque comparison to clocks and how they changed our > sense of time, and their creation of boundaries where there are actually > none (or there are just signifiers of: sun out/sun not out). Of course, the > clock also changed how we sleep, since we can do things later by lamplight > (and later by lightbulb) and so we go to sleep later than we used to. > > This is to point out that it isn't a tool in isolation that changes us, > but in the environment in which it appears, as well as other historic and > cultural realities and also how one tool interacts with other tools and > importantly with the people who use them. I take it everyone here already > knows that, so I don't meant to belabor that and give the impression that I > think you don't! :) > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Mon Mar 9 17:41:44 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 00:41:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> David, Don't computers make a difference by making possible what we are doing now? The printing press has largely been in the hands of a few. Computers, at least as they are today (who remembers mainframes?), make it possible for Everyman to not merely consume text, but also produce it. I find that pretty impressive. Martin On Mar 9, 2015, at 7:14 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Halliday says that the tape recorder is probably the second most important > technological development in linguistics (the printing press, which he > correctly ascribes to China and not to Gutenberg, is the first). It was > with the printing press that private reading really became > practical--reading became an intra-mental activity, a kind of socialized > inner speech. But it was with the tape recorder that the clear distinctness > (temporal and lexicogrammatical) between written and spoken speech became > clear for the first time. > > Nevertheless, the tape recorder has had an impact on pedagogy that is > almost negligible. In EFL, where I now work, it served to make a huge > amount of money for the distributors of language laboratories. But language > laboratories worked by fencing learners into cubicles, and replacing the > subject-subject relation we find in natural language use with a > subject-object relation which we find in crude versions of Activity Theory. > There are now language laboratories lying unused in almost every major > university on earth. > > Halliday ALSO says this: whenever we try to replace an evolved solution > (like face to face pedagogy) with a designed or an invented one (like the > language laboratory, or asynchronous CMC based instruction), the first > attempt almost always fails. The reason why it fails is that it > overemphasizes the hardware and underemphasizes the interface. The most > spectacular example of this (according to Halliday) was the collapse of > volitionally planned economy in the Soviet Union, but a counter-example is > the way the land reform was carried out in China in the 1950s (when > Halliday was there and in which he took an active part). > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 9 March 2015 at 21:31, Glassman, Michael wrote: > >> Hi Annalisa, >> >> I wonder if the role of culture is not so much in determining how we do >> use tools as into how we should be wary of using tools. Culture is by its >> nature I think centripetal in nature. Tools, especially such as the >> Internet tend to be centrifugal. Should we depend on culture to put >> constraints on our uses. >> >> There is a phrase I first heard two years ago that now I seem to hear >> every other week, "If you have a really good hammer, everything starts to >> look like a nail." Really good technologies start to make everything look >> like a nail it seems - especially in our medicine show society where we run >> towards the next barker/grafter before we are done cursing out the last for >> the damage he/she has done. >> >> I think in this sense Heidegger's "On the Question of Technology" is a >> profound mea culpa that every person working in technology should be forced >> to read and discuss on an annual basis - the dangers of becoming too >> enamored with the hammer. >> >> Culture has its own dangers thought that I think we also must own up to. >> It wants to stay a centripetal force, bring everything back in, keep things >> as they are. The (perhaps dialectical) relationship between tools and >> culture - I think Vygotsky caught the mood, these are the things both >> dreams and nightmares are made of. >> >> Michael >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar >> Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2015 7:30 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference >> >> Hi Michael, >> >> Comparing the Internet to the printing press, they possess similarities, >> but it would be like comparing a worldwide shipping system (with trucks, >> trains, and ships, and docks, and longshore men, etc) to an Ancient >> Egyptian chariot. Perhaps. I say that since only certain people could enjoy >> chariots, which required at least a horse and a driver; not everyone had a >> printing press, or a book, and few could read. Nothing about the printing >> press itself that predicts distribution. That is more the desire for >> knowledge, and at that time it was combined with the desire to know the >> Bible. Other content came later. And then the judgements of who was allowed >> to learn to read and to write (as well as to read and to write what). >> >> It is an interesting project to compare them, however. >> >> I would like to emphasize what you said, Michael, that we still don't know >> what the Internet is doing to us. It is still not clear how the tool will >> change us: how we will augment to tool and how it will change us in the >> M?bius strip kind of way. >> >> If it's OK, I would like to repeat something I said in the recent past >> that I think that even Marx (or Vygotsky) could predict the Internet. Seems >> Orwell was closer in some ways. In 1992, for example, I had no idea what >> the WWW was. In 1994 I learned about BBS, FTP, newsgroups, and email, >> though I know these tools were around a lot longer than when I learned of >> it. >> >> So if we can't know and we are here living through these developments in >> real time, how could Marx? How could Vygotsky? I believe there is a quality >> about these tools that does transcend their 19th and 20th century >> consciousnesses. Some things are going to be constant, say that humans >> still need food to eat. But do we need selfies? Do we need Facebook pages? >> >> I liked your Mumfordesque comparison to clocks and how they changed our >> sense of time, and their creation of boundaries where there are actually >> none (or there are just signifiers of: sun out/sun not out). Of course, the >> clock also changed how we sleep, since we can do things later by lamplight >> (and later by lightbulb) and so we go to sleep later than we used to. >> >> This is to point out that it isn't a tool in isolation that changes us, >> but in the environment in which it appears, as well as other historic and >> cultural realities and also how one tool interacts with other tools and >> importantly with the people who use them. I take it everyone here already >> knows that, so I don't meant to belabor that and give the impression that I >> think you don't! :) >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Mar 10 09:20:38 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 09:20:38 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: not to be missed: Al Maysles in Russia 1955 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Having just watched Fred Weizman's documentary about asylums I am not sure I look forward to seeing this, but... mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: DeeDee Halleck Date: Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 8:47 AM Subject: not to be missed: Al Maysles in Russia 1955 To: Mike Cole http://youtu.be/MiZezAjaVI4 -- http://www.deepdishwavesofchange.org -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From helenaworthen@gmail.com Tue Mar 10 09:43:21 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 09:43:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: not to be missed: Al Maysles in Russia 1955 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A6260CA-5767-46D6-9FA3-ADD65EF735DB@gmail.com> Can someone please comment on this film? A little background? Thanks -- H Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Mar 10, 2015, at 9:20 AM, mike cole wrote: > Having just watched Fred Weizman's documentary about asylums I am not sure > I look forward to seeing this, but... > > mike > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: DeeDee Halleck > Date: Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 8:47 AM > Subject: not to be missed: Al Maysles in Russia 1955 > To: Mike Cole > > > http://youtu.be/MiZezAjaVI4 > > -- > http://www.deepdishwavesofchange.org > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Mar 10 09:49:33 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 09:49:33 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: not to be missed: Al Maysles in Russia 1955 In-Reply-To: <2A6260CA-5767-46D6-9FA3-ADD65EF735DB@gmail.com> References: <2A6260CA-5767-46D6-9FA3-ADD65EF735DB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Helena--- Here is one source, but very general in the context of film history I believe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_and_David_Maysles I have asked DeeDee in what context she was sending it. mike On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Helena Worthen wrote: > Can someone please comment on this film? A little background? > > Thanks -- > > H > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Mar 10, 2015, at 9:20 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > Having just watched Fred Weizman's documentary about asylums I am not > sure > > I look forward to seeing this, but... > > > > mike > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: DeeDee Halleck > > Date: Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 8:47 AM > > Subject: not to be missed: Al Maysles in Russia 1955 > > To: Mike Cole > > > > > > http://youtu.be/MiZezAjaVI4 > > > > -- > > http://www.deepdishwavesofchange.org > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Mar 10 10:04:55 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 10:04:55 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: not to be missed: Al Maysles in Russia 1955 In-Reply-To: <2A6260CA-5767-46D6-9FA3-ADD65EF735DB@gmail.com> References: <2A6260CA-5767-46D6-9FA3-ADD65EF735DB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wow! It was totally different than what I anticipated. There are all sorts of things to say about the film. The year is 1955, two years after Stalin's death. It is not, relatively speaking, politically ideological. The "physiological=Pavlov=Brain" opposition to American "social relations/Freudian" emphasis obscures the political meaning of mental illness and the use of that category-theory by the state for purposes of social control. Interesting in the history of documentary film? Interesting for the categories of illness in curreny? Apologies if its just a diversion. mike On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Helena Worthen wrote: > Can someone please comment on this film? A little background? > > Thanks -- > > H > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Mar 10, 2015, at 9:20 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > Having just watched Fred Weizman's documentary about asylums I am not > sure > > I look forward to seeing this, but... > > > > mike > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: DeeDee Halleck > > Date: Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 8:47 AM > > Subject: not to be missed: Al Maysles in Russia 1955 > > To: Mike Cole > > > > > > http://youtu.be/MiZezAjaVI4 > > > > -- > > http://www.deepdishwavesofchange.org > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Mar 10 13:50:01 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 05:50:01 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: It's very easy to confuse the activities one is engaged in presently with modernity itself. But one of the great advantages of the documentary on Soviet psychiatry that is being passed around on another thread is that it shows just how wrong we are about the differences that make a difference. The documentary, where it treads on differences that make a difference at all, seems to wonder about which of two psychotechnologies holds the key to the future of treating mental illness: Pavlov...or Freud. But the difference that would and will make a difference was already there--in Russia if not in America--and it wasn't either one. Today, I think that everybody on this list probably has a better answer than either of the options we are offered, just by virtue of being on this list. So I guess I remain to be convinced that the computer-mediated communication that I'm engaged in is of the same world significance as the invention of the printing press. For one thing, it's not enough for an artifact to be invented; it has to be required for a definite social need whose satisfaction can transform social relations. The Chinese like to say that they gave four great inventions to world civilization (paper, the compass, gunpowder, and printing). Needham points out, though, that having invented paper, the Chinese used it for toilet tissue and playing cards; having invented the compass, they then virtually banned overseas travel; having invented gunpowder, they made fireworks with it to amuse children. Even printing--while the Chinese did invent movable type, they didn't have an alphabet, so it didn't have the same effect on the unit of analysis of language that printing had on the West. Finally, I am always a little surprised that people who utterly reject the attempt to model schools, hospitals, and even families as business enterprises are so willing to accept the analogy between commodity production and the production of text. I don't think that teachers are in the business of producing commodities: we are, as anybody with student debt can acknowledge, engaged in a much more primitive form of accumulation. Similarly, I think that when we "produce" text we don't exchange labor with capital or produce commodities, and when we "consume" text it has the curious property of continuing to exist in exactly the same form. So here too I think we are engaged in something much more ancient--in fact, a form of primitive communism. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 10 March 2015 at 09:41, Martin John Packer wrote: > David, > > Don't computers make a difference by making possible what we are doing > now? The printing press has largely been in the hands of a few. Computers, > at least as they are today (who remembers mainframes?), make it possible > for Everyman to not merely consume text, but also produce it. I find that > pretty impressive. > > Martin > > On Mar 9, 2015, at 7:14 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > > Halliday says that the tape recorder is probably the second most > important > > technological development in linguistics (the printing press, which he > > correctly ascribes to China and not to Gutenberg, is the first). It was > > with the printing press that private reading really became > > practical--reading became an intra-mental activity, a kind of socialized > > inner speech. But it was with the tape recorder that the clear > distinctness > > (temporal and lexicogrammatical) between written and spoken speech became > > clear for the first time. > > > > Nevertheless, the tape recorder has had an impact on pedagogy that is > > almost negligible. In EFL, where I now work, it served to make a huge > > amount of money for the distributors of language laboratories. But > language > > laboratories worked by fencing learners into cubicles, and replacing the > > subject-subject relation we find in natural language use with a > > subject-object relation which we find in crude versions of Activity > Theory. > > There are now language laboratories lying unused in almost every major > > university on earth. > > > > Halliday ALSO says this: whenever we try to replace an evolved solution > > (like face to face pedagogy) with a designed or an invented one (like the > > language laboratory, or asynchronous CMC based instruction), the first > > attempt almost always fails. The reason why it fails is that it > > overemphasizes the hardware and underemphasizes the interface. The most > > spectacular example of this (according to Halliday) was the collapse of > > volitionally planned economy in the Soviet Union, but a counter-example > is > > the way the land reform was carried out in China in the 1950s (when > > Halliday was there and in which he took an active part). > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > On 9 March 2015 at 21:31, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > > >> Hi Annalisa, > >> > >> I wonder if the role of culture is not so much in determining how we do > >> use tools as into how we should be wary of using tools. Culture is by > its > >> nature I think centripetal in nature. Tools, especially such as the > >> Internet tend to be centrifugal. Should we depend on culture to put > >> constraints on our uses. > >> > >> There is a phrase I first heard two years ago that now I seem to hear > >> every other week, "If you have a really good hammer, everything starts > to > >> look like a nail." Really good technologies start to make everything > look > >> like a nail it seems - especially in our medicine show society where we > run > >> towards the next barker/grafter before we are done cursing out the last > for > >> the damage he/she has done. > >> > >> I think in this sense Heidegger's "On the Question of Technology" is a > >> profound mea culpa that every person working in technology should be > forced > >> to read and discuss on an annual basis - the dangers of becoming too > >> enamored with the hammer. > >> > >> Culture has its own dangers thought that I think we also must own up to. > >> It wants to stay a centripetal force, bring everything back in, keep > things > >> as they are. The (perhaps dialectical) relationship between tools and > >> culture - I think Vygotsky caught the mood, these are the things both > >> dreams and nightmares are made of. > >> > >> Michael > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > >> Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2015 7:30 PM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference > >> > >> Hi Michael, > >> > >> Comparing the Internet to the printing press, they possess similarities, > >> but it would be like comparing a worldwide shipping system (with trucks, > >> trains, and ships, and docks, and longshore men, etc) to an Ancient > >> Egyptian chariot. Perhaps. I say that since only certain people could > enjoy > >> chariots, which required at least a horse and a driver; not everyone > had a > >> printing press, or a book, and few could read. Nothing about the > printing > >> press itself that predicts distribution. That is more the desire for > >> knowledge, and at that time it was combined with the desire to know the > >> Bible. Other content came later. And then the judgements of who was > allowed > >> to learn to read and to write (as well as to read and to write what). > >> > >> It is an interesting project to compare them, however. > >> > >> I would like to emphasize what you said, Michael, that we still don't > know > >> what the Internet is doing to us. It is still not clear how the tool > will > >> change us: how we will augment to tool and how it will change us in the > >> M?bius strip kind of way. > >> > >> If it's OK, I would like to repeat something I said in the recent past > >> that I think that even Marx (or Vygotsky) could predict the Internet. > Seems > >> Orwell was closer in some ways. In 1992, for example, I had no idea what > >> the WWW was. In 1994 I learned about BBS, FTP, newsgroups, and email, > >> though I know these tools were around a lot longer than when I learned > of > >> it. > >> > >> So if we can't know and we are here living through these developments in > >> real time, how could Marx? How could Vygotsky? I believe there is a > quality > >> about these tools that does transcend their 19th and 20th century > >> consciousnesses. Some things are going to be constant, say that humans > >> still need food to eat. But do we need selfies? Do we need Facebook > pages? > >> > >> I liked your Mumfordesque comparison to clocks and how they changed our > >> sense of time, and their creation of boundaries where there are actually > >> none (or there are just signifiers of: sun out/sun not out). Of course, > the > >> clock also changed how we sleep, since we can do things later by > lamplight > >> (and later by lightbulb) and so we go to sleep later than we used to. > >> > >> This is to point out that it isn't a tool in isolation that changes us, > >> but in the environment in which it appears, as well as other historic > and > >> cultural realities and also how one tool interacts with other tools and > >> importantly with the people who use them. I take it everyone here > already > >> knows that, so I don't meant to belabor that and give the impression > that I > >> think you don't! :) > >> > >> Kind regards, > >> > >> Annalisa > >> > >> > >> > > > From billkerr@gmail.com Tue Mar 10 14:41:37 2015 From: billkerr@gmail.com (Bill Kerr) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 08:41:37 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: hi David, others, I used to think about this question a lot. Here are some relevant links, sorry, I'm a little rushed presently and don't have time to leave a more substantial comment: http://edge.org/q2005/q05_8.html#kay Alan Kay was inventor of the first oops language and I think the first person to conceive of the laptop, once he heard of Moores law http://www.uh.edu/engines/indiana.htm What people said about books in 1498 A historical perspective (written in 1998) with suggestions about the future in the last few paragraphs I also remember that Socrates didn't like writing. Each generation resists the future, the older generation has to die out first. I think Thomas Kuhn said that. Socrates complained about writing. He felt it forced one to follow an argument rather than participate in it, and he disliked both its alienation and it persistence. He was unsettled by the idea that a manuscript travelled without the author, with whom no argument was possible. Worse, the author could die and never be talked away from the position taken in the writing. - Alan Kay: Computer, Networks and Education. Scientific American September 1991 On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 7:50 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > It's very easy to confuse the activities one is engaged in presently with > modernity itself. But one of the great advantages of the documentary on > Soviet psychiatry that is being passed around on another thread is that it > shows just how wrong we are about the differences that make a difference. > The documentary, where it treads on differences that make a difference at > all, seems to wonder about which of two psychotechnologies holds the key to > the future of treating mental illness: Pavlov...or Freud. But the > difference that would and will make a difference was already there--in > Russia if not in America--and it wasn't either one. Today, I think that > everybody on this list probably has a better answer than either of the > options we are offered, just by virtue of being on this list. > > So I guess I remain to be convinced that the computer-mediated > communication that I'm engaged in is of the same world significance as the > invention of the printing press. For one thing, it's not enough for an > artifact to be invented; it has to be required for a definite social need > whose satisfaction can transform social relations. The Chinese like to say > that they gave four great inventions to world civilization (paper, the > compass, gunpowder, and printing). Needham points out, though, that having > invented paper, the Chinese used it for toilet tissue and playing cards; > having invented the compass, they then virtually banned overseas travel; > having invented gunpowder, they made fireworks with it to amuse children. > Even printing--while the Chinese did invent movable type, they didn't have > an alphabet, so it didn't have the same effect on the unit of analysis of > language that printing had on the West. > > Finally, I am always a little surprised that people who utterly reject the > attempt to model schools, hospitals, and even families as business > enterprises are so willing to accept the analogy between commodity > production and the production of text. I don't think that teachers are in > the business of producing commodities: we are, as anybody with student debt > can acknowledge, engaged in a much more primitive form of accumulation. > Similarly, I think that when we "produce" text we don't exchange labor with > capital or produce commodities, and when we "consume" text it has the > curious property of continuing to exist in exactly the same form. So here > too I think we are engaged in something much more ancient--in fact, a form > of primitive communism. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 10 March 2015 at 09:41, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > > David, > > > > Don't computers make a difference by making possible what we are doing > > now? The printing press has largely been in the hands of a few. > Computers, > > at least as they are today (who remembers mainframes?), make it possible > > for Everyman to not merely consume text, but also produce it. I find that > > pretty impressive. > > > > Martin > > > > On Mar 9, 2015, at 7:14 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > > > > Halliday says that the tape recorder is probably the second most > > important > > > technological development in linguistics (the printing press, which he > > > correctly ascribes to China and not to Gutenberg, is the first). It was > > > with the printing press that private reading really became > > > practical--reading became an intra-mental activity, a kind of > socialized > > > inner speech. But it was with the tape recorder that the clear > > distinctness > > > (temporal and lexicogrammatical) between written and spoken speech > became > > > clear for the first time. > > > > > > Nevertheless, the tape recorder has had an impact on pedagogy that is > > > almost negligible. In EFL, where I now work, it served to make a huge > > > amount of money for the distributors of language laboratories. But > > language > > > laboratories worked by fencing learners into cubicles, and replacing > the > > > subject-subject relation we find in natural language use with a > > > subject-object relation which we find in crude versions of Activity > > Theory. > > > There are now language laboratories lying unused in almost every major > > > university on earth. > > > > > > Halliday ALSO says this: whenever we try to replace an evolved solution > > > (like face to face pedagogy) with a designed or an invented one (like > the > > > language laboratory, or asynchronous CMC based instruction), the first > > > attempt almost always fails. The reason why it fails is that it > > > overemphasizes the hardware and underemphasizes the interface. The most > > > spectacular example of this (according to Halliday) was the collapse of > > > volitionally planned economy in the Soviet Union, but a counter-example > > is > > > the way the land reform was carried out in China in the 1950s (when > > > Halliday was there and in which he took an active part). > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > On 9 March 2015 at 21:31, Glassman, Michael > wrote: > > > > > >> Hi Annalisa, > > >> > > >> I wonder if the role of culture is not so much in determining how we > do > > >> use tools as into how we should be wary of using tools. Culture is by > > its > > >> nature I think centripetal in nature. Tools, especially such as the > > >> Internet tend to be centrifugal. Should we depend on culture to put > > >> constraints on our uses. > > >> > > >> There is a phrase I first heard two years ago that now I seem to hear > > >> every other week, "If you have a really good hammer, everything > starts > > to > > >> look like a nail." Really good technologies start to make everything > > look > > >> like a nail it seems - especially in our medicine show society where > we > > run > > >> towards the next barker/grafter before we are done cursing out the > last > > for > > >> the damage he/she has done. > > >> > > >> I think in this sense Heidegger's "On the Question of Technology" is a > > >> profound mea culpa that every person working in technology should be > > forced > > >> to read and discuss on an annual basis - the dangers of becoming too > > >> enamored with the hammer. > > >> > > >> Culture has its own dangers thought that I think we also must own up > to. > > >> It wants to stay a centripetal force, bring everything back in, keep > > things > > >> as they are. The (perhaps dialectical) relationship between tools and > > >> culture - I think Vygotsky caught the mood, these are the things both > > >> dreams and nightmares are made of. > > >> > > >> Michael > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > > >> Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2015 7:30 PM > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference > > >> > > >> Hi Michael, > > >> > > >> Comparing the Internet to the printing press, they possess > similarities, > > >> but it would be like comparing a worldwide shipping system (with > trucks, > > >> trains, and ships, and docks, and longshore men, etc) to an Ancient > > >> Egyptian chariot. Perhaps. I say that since only certain people could > > enjoy > > >> chariots, which required at least a horse and a driver; not everyone > > had a > > >> printing press, or a book, and few could read. Nothing about the > > printing > > >> press itself that predicts distribution. That is more the desire for > > >> knowledge, and at that time it was combined with the desire to know > the > > >> Bible. Other content came later. And then the judgements of who was > > allowed > > >> to learn to read and to write (as well as to read and to write what). > > >> > > >> It is an interesting project to compare them, however. > > >> > > >> I would like to emphasize what you said, Michael, that we still don't > > know > > >> what the Internet is doing to us. It is still not clear how the tool > > will > > >> change us: how we will augment to tool and how it will change us in > the > > >> M?bius strip kind of way. > > >> > > >> If it's OK, I would like to repeat something I said in the recent past > > >> that I think that even Marx (or Vygotsky) could predict the Internet. > > Seems > > >> Orwell was closer in some ways. In 1992, for example, I had no idea > what > > >> the WWW was. In 1994 I learned about BBS, FTP, newsgroups, and email, > > >> though I know these tools were around a lot longer than when I learned > > of > > >> it. > > >> > > >> So if we can't know and we are here living through these developments > in > > >> real time, how could Marx? How could Vygotsky? I believe there is a > > quality > > >> about these tools that does transcend their 19th and 20th century > > >> consciousnesses. Some things are going to be constant, say that humans > > >> still need food to eat. But do we need selfies? Do we need Facebook > > pages? > > >> > > >> I liked your Mumfordesque comparison to clocks and how they changed > our > > >> sense of time, and their creation of boundaries where there are > actually > > >> none (or there are just signifiers of: sun out/sun not out). Of > course, > > the > > >> clock also changed how we sleep, since we can do things later by > > lamplight > > >> (and later by lightbulb) and so we go to sleep later than we used to. > > >> > > >> This is to point out that it isn't a tool in isolation that changes > us, > > >> but in the environment in which it appears, as well as other historic > > and > > >> cultural realities and also how one tool interacts with other tools > and > > >> importantly with the people who use them. I take it everyone here > > already > > >> knows that, so I don't meant to belabor that and give the impression > > that I > > >> think you don't! :) > > >> > > >> Kind regards, > > >> > > >> Annalisa > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Mar 10 16:36:03 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 23:36:03 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> , Message-ID: <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> Seven things I learned from What People Said About Books in 1498, by John H. Lienhard (http://www.uh.edu/engines/indiana.htm): 1. Sharing is a cultural invention, not a technological one. Sharing must be reinvented in each community and in each generation. 2. Caxton was not a cultural snob. 3. Margaret was one cool hipster. 4. Mennochio and I have a few things in common, but I hope to live to be an old woman and not charcoal on a stick. 5. I regret Lienhard's the analysis of Medieval scholars using Myers-Briggs. I wish that rubric would just die. 6. "We cannot have a clue as to what any technological future will be until we learn it from a new generation of users." <-- What he said!!! 7. We can only know what we know when we have an idea what we don't know. Which is why I love what he said about seeking our ignorance. And: "To impose is not to discover." Yeah. That. Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Mar 10 16:56:43 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 23:56:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Sharing and FOSS Message-ID: <1426031803962.59997@unm.edu> Hi esteemed others! Just happened upon this website, and thought I'd share! http://www.fosshub.com/ http://www.fosshub.com/about.html? Perhaps I impose so that you may discover? Kind regards, Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Tue Mar 10 22:59:31 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 16:59:31 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Can symbols help people learning to read? Message-ID: <54FFD9C3.3000508@mira.net> I am forwarding this message from a good friend who has a question about literacy education. If you know of research on this question, perhaps you could cc Mike B. in your reply. *** My sister is in the education field and she is looking for theory and research to refute an influential paper which claims introducing symbols to non-readers actually hampers their ability to develop literacy skills. The little I have read on AT and semiotics seems to at least indicate that under certain conditions, symbols can aid literacy. But I am looking for something specific and/or definite. *** Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi Tue Mar 10 23:07:58 2015 From: yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Engestr=F6m=2C_Yrj=F6_H_M=22?=) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 08:07:58 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Can symbols help people learning to read? In-Reply-To: <54FFD9C3.3000508@mira.net> References: <54FFD9C3.3000508@mira.net> Message-ID: <712B1364-861D-4FEB-B0B5-618061DB5C84@helsinki.fi> Andy, you might take a look at Kyosho Amano's chapter Improvement of schoolchildren's reading and writing ability through the formation of linguistic awareness in the volume Perspectives on Activity Theory (edited by Engestr?m, Miettinen & Punam?ki, 1999). Regards, Yrj? On Mar 11, 2015, at 7:59 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > I am forwarding this message from a good friend who has a question about literacy education. > If you know of research on this question, perhaps you could cc Mike B. in your reply. > *** > My sister is in the education field and she is looking for theory and research to refute an influential paper which claims introducing symbols to non-readers actually hampers their ability to develop literacy skills. The little I have read on AT and semiotics seems to at least indicate that under certain conditions, symbols can aid literacy. But I am looking for something specific and/or definite. > *** > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > From ablunden@mira.net Tue Mar 10 23:09:36 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:09:36 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Can symbols help people learning to read? In-Reply-To: <712B1364-861D-4FEB-B0B5-618061DB5C84@helsinki.fi> References: <54FFD9C3.3000508@mira.net> <712B1364-861D-4FEB-B0B5-618061DB5C84@helsinki.fi> Message-ID: <54FFDC20.6050008@mira.net> Thanks, Yrj?. I have that book. I'll scan the article for my friend. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Engestr?m, Yrj? H M wrote: > Andy, you might take a look at Kyosho Amano's chapter > > > Improvement of schoolchildren's reading and writing ability > through the formation of linguistic awareness > > > > in the volume /Perspectives on Activity Theory/ (edited by Engestr?m, > Miettinen & Punam?ki, 1999). > > Regards, > > Yrj? > > > On Mar 11, 2015, at 7:59 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> I am forwarding this message from a good friend who has a question >> about literacy education. >> If you know of research on this question, perhaps you could cc Mike >> B. in your reply. >> *** >> My sister is in the education field and she is looking for theory and >> research to refute an influential paper which claims introducing >> symbols to non-readers actually hampers their ability to develop >> literacy skills. The little I have read on AT and semiotics seems to >> at least indicate that under certain conditions, symbols can aid >> literacy. But I am looking for something specific and/or definite. >> *** >> Andy >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> > From carolmacdon@gmail.com Wed Mar 11 00:33:41 2015 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 09:33:41 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Can symbols help people learning to read? In-Reply-To: <54FFDC20.6050008@mira.net> References: <54FFD9C3.3000508@mira.net> <712B1364-861D-4FEB-B0B5-618061DB5C84@helsinki.fi> <54FFDC20.6050008@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, please Cc me in your reply to your friend. Thanks Carol On 11 March 2015 at 08:09, Andy Blunden wrote: > Thanks, Yrj?. I have that book. I'll scan the article for my friend. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Engestr?m, Yrj? H M wrote: > >> Andy, you might take a look at Kyosho Amano's chapter >> >> Improvement of schoolchildren's reading and writing ability >> through the formation of linguistic awareness >> > fnd&pg=PA183&dq=K.+Amano+perspectives+on+activity+ >> theory&ots=lZ1KOHx5lY&sig=zxCCJ0vaJD3ScfrgkEcInqaVItM> >> >> >> in the volume /Perspectives on Activity Theory/ (edited by Engestr?m, >> Miettinen & Punam?ki, 1999). >> >> Regards, >> >> Yrj? >> >> >> On Mar 11, 2015, at 7:59 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> I am forwarding this message from a good friend who has a question about >>> literacy education. >>> If you know of research on this question, perhaps you could cc Mike B. >>> in your reply. >>> *** >>> My sister is in the education field and she is looking for theory and >>> research to refute an influential paper which claims introducing symbols to >>> non-readers actually hampers their ability to develop literacy skills. The >>> little I have read on AT and semiotics seems to at least indicate that >>> under certain conditions, symbols can aid literacy. But I am looking for >>> something specific and/or definite. >>> *** >>> Andy >>> -- >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >> > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From ablunden@mira.net Wed Mar 11 02:33:27 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 20:33:27 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Can symbols help people learning to read? In-Reply-To: References: <54FFD9C3.3000508@mira.net> <712B1364-861D-4FEB-B0B5-618061DB5C84@helsinki.fi> <54FFDC20.6050008@mira.net> Message-ID: <55000BE7.4070501@mira.net> Scan of " Improvement of schoolchildren's reading and writing ability through the formation of linguistic awareness" by Kyoshi Amano from /Perspectives on Activity Theory/ (edited by Engestr?m, Miettinen & Punam?ki, 1999) attached. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Carol Macdonald wrote: > Andy, > please Cc me in your reply to your friend. > > Thanks > Carol > > On 11 March 2015 at 08:09, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Thanks, Yrj?. I have that book. I'll scan the article for my friend. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > Engestr?m, Yrj? H M wrote: > > Andy, you might take a look at Kyosho Amano's chapter > > Improvement of schoolchildren's reading and writing ability > through the formation of linguistic awareness > > > > > > in the volume /Perspectives on Activity Theory/ (edited by > Engestr?m, Miettinen & Punam?ki, 1999). > > Regards, > > Yrj? > > > On Mar 11, 2015, at 7:59 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > I am forwarding this message from a good friend who has a > question about literacy education. > If you know of research on this question, perhaps you > could cc Mike B. in your reply. > *** > My sister is in the education field and she is looking for > theory and research to refute an influential paper which > claims introducing symbols to non-readers actually hampers > their ability to develop literacy skills. The little I > have read on AT and semiotics seems to at least indicate > that under certain conditions, symbols can aid literacy. > But I am looking for something specific and/or definite. > *** > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > -- > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Amano-linguistic-awareness.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 776298 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150311/2c96bf3b/attachment-0001.pdf From smago@uga.edu Wed Mar 11 03:25:14 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 10:25:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Can symbols help people learning to read? In-Reply-To: <54FFD9C3.3000508@mira.net> References: <54FFD9C3.3000508@mira.net> Message-ID: http://www.amazon.com/Language-Stories-Literacy-Lessons-Carolyn/dp/0435082116 If by symbols you mean that drawings constitute a form a pre-writing, this book might help. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 2:00 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Mike B Subject: [Xmca-l] Can symbols help people learning to read? I am forwarding this message from a good friend who has a question about literacy education. If you know of research on this question, perhaps you could cc Mike B. in your reply. *** My sister is in the education field and she is looking for theory and research to refute an influential paper which claims introducing symbols to non-readers actually hampers their ability to develop literacy skills. The little I have read on AT and semiotics seems to at least indicate that under certain conditions, symbols can aid literacy. But I am looking for something specific and/or definite. *** Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From helen.harper@bigpond.com Wed Mar 11 06:10:55 2015 From: helen.harper@bigpond.com (Helen Harper) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 22:40:55 +0930 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Can symbols help people learning to read? In-Reply-To: <54FFD9C3.3000508@mira.net> References: <54FFD9C3.3000508@mira.net> Message-ID: <9D19DD68-5C10-4F09-A118-ADDB5DDF23E5@bigpond.com> Hi Andy, I'm a bit vague about what it is that we're refuting - what kinds of symbols are we talking about? So my contribution may be way off - it's more to do with 'struggling readers' than non-readers per se. I suggest a lovely little book by Max Kemp - very old now, but kind of timeless: Kemp, M. 1980. ?Examining Reading Processes.? Reading-language processes: assessment and teaching. Australian Reading Association. I like it as an explanation of the complexities that come into play when we learn to read. The bit about cueing systems is standard stuff, but I think we need to understand it as a basis for any conversation about reading. Am attaching an extract I copied a few years ago when I was teaching a course and I wanted the students to think about the cognitive load involved in learning to read. I think this was the limit of the number pages I could legally copy and distribute! Might not be specific enough for your friend's purposes, but it's a nice little piece to share anyway. Helen > On 11 Mar 2015, at 3:29 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > > I am forwarding this message from a good friend who has a question about literacy education. > If you know of research on this question, perhaps you could cc Mike B. in your reply. > *** > My sister is in the education field and she is looking for theory and research to refute an influential paper which claims introducing symbols to non-readers actually hampers their ability to develop literacy skills. The little I have read on AT and semiotics seems to at least indicate that under certain conditions, symbols can aid literacy. But I am looking for something specific and/or definite. > *** > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Mar 11 09:11:32 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 09:11:32 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> Message-ID: It is great to see this discussion broaden out temporally to take us back to the oldest of communications media we can manage. The question raised in this manner is more or less what we set out to explore when we created a Department of Communication at UCSD with checkered success. Very interesting to see the lists and previously unspeaking voices appear, almost as if a minicurriculum in "The history of human mediational means and their associated lifeworlds" were lurking out there in xmca-land. To help me understand just a corner of this vaste terrain, might you, David, expand on these comments: Nevertheless, the tape recorder has had an impact on pedagogy that is almost negligible. In EFL, where I now work, it served to make a huge amount of money for the distributors of language laboratories. But language laboratories worked by fencing learners into cubicles, and *replacing the* *subject-subject relation we find in natural language use with asubject-object relation which we find in crude versions of Activity Theory.* Given our ongoing discussions about the varieties of and attitudes toward different versions of "THE" Activity Theory, it would help me to understand clear examples of a crude version of AT and how it is applied alongside a subtle/better version of AT and how it is applied in a different way. I am conjecturing that if we could get some broad, "germ cell" understanding of the issue in bold above, it might serve as an analytic lens through which to view of the history of mediation and activity in human life. mike On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Seven things I learned from What People Said About Books in 1498, by John > H. Lienhard (http://www.uh.edu/engines/indiana.htm): > > 1. Sharing is a cultural invention, not a technological one. Sharing must > be reinvented in each community and in each generation. > > 2. Caxton was not a cultural snob. > > 3. Margaret was one cool hipster. > > 4. Mennochio and I have a few things in common, but I hope to live to be > an old woman and not charcoal on a stick. > > 5. I regret Lienhard's the analysis of Medieval scholars using > Myers-Briggs. I wish that rubric would just die. > > 6. "We cannot have a clue as to what any technological future will be > until we learn it from a new generation of users." <-- What he said!!! > > 7. We can only know what we know when we have an idea what we don't know. > Which is why I love what he said about seeking our ignorance. And: "To > impose is not to discover." Yeah. That. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Mar 11 09:42:41 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 16:42:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Can symbols help people learning to read? In-Reply-To: <54FFD9C3.3000508@mira.net> References: <54FFD9C3.3000508@mira.net> Message-ID: As has already been stated, it depends upon what one means by 'symbol' and it also depends upon how such symbols are introduced. For example, the set of graphemes constituting a written word may be referred to as a symbolic model of the phonemic structure of the word. With respect to picture-word correspondence, this could feasibly help with understanding the nature of words as referring to conceptions rather than the immediacy of things themselves in early development. When our first child was about 12 months, we used a photo album of everyday objects from around the house to help distinguish between the words and the objects referred to. One day I sat down and requested, in a purposeful tone, that he put my shoe on the trolley (I didn't use gestures) and was fairly gobsmacked when he simply set off and did it. This was at a time when he wasn't saying any recognisable words, let alone sentence sounds with predicates in them. Shoes were not part of his repertoire of toy objects, and the trolley wasn't being used (at the time) as a thing to carry other things with. It would still be difficult to demonstrate a clear link, but where I would theoretically place it is in relating the word to the conception of the object (the memory of the perception). This fits with the nature of my request, as the trolley was not in sight at the time (but it was one of the items in the album). Huw On 11 March 2015 at 05:59, Andy Blunden wrote: > I am forwarding this message from a good friend who has a question about > literacy education. > If you know of research on this question, perhaps you could cc Mike B. in > your reply. > *** > My sister is in the education field and she is looking for theory and > research to refute an influential paper which claims introducing symbols to > non-readers actually hampers their ability to develop literacy skills. The > little I have read on AT and semiotics seems to at least indicate that > under certain conditions, symbols can aid literacy. But I am looking for > something specific and/or definite. > *** > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Mar 11 10:08:07 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 10:08:07 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Can symbols help people learning to read? In-Reply-To: References: <54FFD9C3.3000508@mira.net> Message-ID: Huw-- Would you say that your son's action is evidence of the use of productive imagination? mike On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > As has already been stated, it depends upon what one means by 'symbol' and > it also depends upon how such symbols are introduced. > > For example, the set of graphemes constituting a written word may be > referred to as a symbolic model of the phonemic structure of the word. > > With respect to picture-word correspondence, this could feasibly help with > understanding the nature of words as referring to conceptions rather than > the immediacy of things themselves in early development. > > When our first child was about 12 months, we used a photo album of everyday > objects from around the house to help distinguish between the words and the > objects referred to. One day I sat down and requested, in a purposeful > tone, that he put my shoe on the trolley (I didn't use gestures) and was > fairly gobsmacked when he simply set off and did it. This was at a time > when he wasn't saying any recognisable words, let alone sentence sounds > with predicates in them. Shoes were not part of his repertoire of toy > objects, and the trolley wasn't being used (at the time) as a thing to > carry other things with. > > It would still be difficult to demonstrate a clear link, but where I would > theoretically place it is in relating the word to the conception of the > object (the memory of the perception). This fits with the nature of my > request, as the trolley was not in sight at the time (but it was one of the > items in the album). > > Huw > > > > On 11 March 2015 at 05:59, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > I am forwarding this message from a good friend who has a question about > > literacy education. > > If you know of research on this question, perhaps you could cc Mike B. in > > your reply. > > *** > > My sister is in the education field and she is looking for theory and > > research to refute an influential paper which claims introducing symbols > to > > non-readers actually hampers their ability to develop literacy skills. > The > > little I have read on AT and semiotics seems to at least indicate that > > under certain conditions, symbols can aid literacy. But I am looking for > > something specific and/or definite. > > *** > > Andy > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Mar 11 12:07:40 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 19:07:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Can symbols help people learning to read? In-Reply-To: References: <54FFD9C3.3000508@mira.net> Message-ID: On 11 March 2015 at 17:08, mike cole wrote: > Huw-- > > Would you say that your son's action is evidence of the use of productive > imagination? > mike > > That suggests a voluntary recollection, whereas I suspect it was more or less an involuntary image voluntarily acted upon. I wouldn't argue that they're not part of the same genetic process, but the phrase connotes that distinction for me. The main thing for me at the time was the evidence I was seeing regarding not underestimating what kinds of things he could respond to (within the context of an obviously important relationship). Huw > On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > As has already been stated, it depends upon what one means by 'symbol' > and > > it also depends upon how such symbols are introduced. > > > > For example, the set of graphemes constituting a written word may be > > referred to as a symbolic model of the phonemic structure of the word. > > > > With respect to picture-word correspondence, this could feasibly help > with > > understanding the nature of words as referring to conceptions rather than > > the immediacy of things themselves in early development. > > > > When our first child was about 12 months, we used a photo album of > everyday > > objects from around the house to help distinguish between the words and > the > > objects referred to. One day I sat down and requested, in a purposeful > > tone, that he put my shoe on the trolley (I didn't use gestures) and was > > fairly gobsmacked when he simply set off and did it. This was at a time > > when he wasn't saying any recognisable words, let alone sentence sounds > > with predicates in them. Shoes were not part of his repertoire of toy > > objects, and the trolley wasn't being used (at the time) as a thing to > > carry other things with. > > > > It would still be difficult to demonstrate a clear link, but where I > would > > theoretically place it is in relating the word to the conception of the > > object (the memory of the perception). This fits with the nature of my > > request, as the trolley was not in sight at the time (but it was one of > the > > items in the album). > > > > Huw > > > > > > > > On 11 March 2015 at 05:59, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > > I am forwarding this message from a good friend who has a question > about > > > literacy education. > > > If you know of research on this question, perhaps you could cc Mike B. > in > > > your reply. > > > *** > > > My sister is in the education field and she is looking for theory and > > > research to refute an influential paper which claims introducing > symbols > > to > > > non-readers actually hampers their ability to develop literacy skills. > > The > > > little I have read on AT and semiotics seems to at least indicate that > > > under certain conditions, symbols can aid literacy. But I am looking > for > > > something specific and/or definite. > > > *** > > > Andy > > > -- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Mar 11 14:52:03 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 06:52:03 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> Message-ID: Human language learning at the University of Chicago in the mid-seventies (which I did as an undergraduate in the Chinese department) was a lot like rodent maze-learning. You checked into the language laboratory for two hours of drilling almost every day. It went something like this: TAPE RECORDER: "Ni you shu mei you?--piao" (Do you have a book--a ticket) STUDENT: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) TAPE RECORDER: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) STUDENT: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) As you can see, there's a stimulus, a response, a reinforcement, and an a reinforcement of the reinforcement, just to be extra sure. That was from the educational psychology point of view then current, which Mike may well recognize from HIS undergraduate days. >From the early activity theory point of view, I take it what I was doing was something like this: I was the subject, the language laboratory was a tool/sign artefact, the correct model was the object upon which I was operating and the correct response was the outcome. The rules were that I was to do this five days a week, and there was a sign-in sheet delivered to a teaching assistant on a weekly basis. The community, therefore, did not include a professor, but it did include a fellow student paid minimum wage to supervise the language laboratory (I speak feelingly, I did it before I got a better paying job as a janitor), and I could glimpse of the tops of the heads of my classmates in other cubicles when I stood up to leave after two hours. Such was the division of labor. You can see this fairly crude version of AT in a lot of articles in MCA. In Vol. 15, No. 3, on p. 182, Wolff-Michael Roth uses it to lay out the A.N. Leontiev's prototypical primitive communism situation (the hunters and beaters). Iin vol. 15, No 4. on p. 327, Helena Worthen uses it to talk about teaching people to negotiate working conditions. In Vol. 16, No. 2, on p. 136, Norman Friesen uses something even more crude--the so-called speech circuit, from Saussure's 1911 Course in General Linguistics (complete with droopy lines connecting a speaker's mouth to a hearer's ear!) I take it that the model of language in ALL of these is basically that of my old language laboratory: the objects of language are essentially objects without minds, aspects of the environment to be acted upon in order to achieve particular outcomes, no different from a stone to be made into a tool, or a mastodon to be transformed into dinner. The problem is that this view of language is essentially that of your average psychotic serial killer. It doesn't capture the simple fact that the object of language is not an object at all, but rather a fellow subject--often--yea, if we believe Chomsky, most often, that is, in the vast majority of instances of language use we encounter in a single day--the object is actually myself. I think there are some uses of AT (even the Engestrom triangle) which very clearly DO take this into account. I have seen some versions of the Engestrom triangle where it is used to link two subjects and there is no object at all. In Vol. 13, No. 4, Katherine Brown and Jule Gomez de Garcia point out that even in the unnatural conditions of language use we find in a literacy classroom, the object of language use is always SHARED with other human subjects. In 1984, eight years after I'd left the University of Chicago, I found myself on a bus in Beijing. The bus was full as only Beijing buses could be in those days, and a scratchy din emanated from a tiny loudspeaker near where I was standing. I watched as people one by one got on the bus, pushed their way to the conductor, and bought a ticket, and only then did I realize that the loudspeaker was a human voice saying: "Mei piao mai piao, a! Mei piao mai piao, a!" In other words, "Do you have a ticket?" David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 12 March 2015 at 01:11, mike cole wrote: > It is great to see this discussion broaden out temporally to take us back > to the oldest of communications media we can manage. The question raised in > this manner is more or less what we set out to explore when we created a > Department of Communication at UCSD with checkered success. > > Very interesting to see the lists and previously unspeaking voices appear, > almost as if a minicurriculum in "The history of human mediational means > and their associated lifeworlds" were lurking out there in xmca-land. > > To help me understand just a corner of this vaste terrain, might you, > David, expand on these comments: > > Nevertheless, the tape recorder has had an impact on pedagogy that is > almost negligible. In EFL, where I now work, it served to make a huge > amount of money for the distributors of language laboratories. But language > laboratories worked by fencing learners into cubicles, and *replacing the* > > *subject-subject relation we find in natural language use with > asubject-object relation which we find in crude versions of Activity > Theory.* > > Given our ongoing discussions about the varieties of and attitudes toward > different versions of "THE" Activity Theory, it would help me to understand > clear examples of a crude version > of AT and how it is applied alongside a subtle/better version of AT and how > it is applied in a different way. > > I am conjecturing that if we could get some broad, "germ cell" > understanding of the issue in bold above, it might serve as an analytic > lens through which to view of the history of mediation and activity in > human life. > mike > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > Seven things I learned from What People Said About Books in 1498, by John > > H. Lienhard (http://www.uh.edu/engines/indiana.htm): > > > > 1. Sharing is a cultural invention, not a technological one. Sharing must > > be reinvented in each community and in each generation. > > > > 2. Caxton was not a cultural snob. > > > > 3. Margaret was one cool hipster. > > > > 4. Mennochio and I have a few things in common, but I hope to live to be > > an old woman and not charcoal on a stick. > > > > 5. I regret Lienhard's the analysis of Medieval scholars using > > Myers-Briggs. I wish that rubric would just die. > > > > 6. "We cannot have a clue as to what any technological future will be > > until we learn it from a new generation of users." <-- What he said!!! > > > > 7. We can only know what we know when we have an idea what we don't know. > > Which is why I love what he said about seeking our ignorance. And: "To > > impose is not to discover." Yeah. That. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Mar 11 15:57:46 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 16:57:46 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Can symbols help people learning to read? In-Reply-To: References: <54FFD9C3.3000508@mira.net> Message-ID: Huw, Sounds kinda like Tomasello's kids who put the "gazzer" in the barn. (did I get the term right?). Cool stuff all around! -greg On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > On 11 March 2015 at 17:08, mike cole wrote: > > > Huw-- > > > > Would you say that your son's action is evidence of the use of productive > > imagination? > > mike > > > > > That suggests a voluntary recollection, whereas I suspect it was more or > less an involuntary image voluntarily acted upon. I wouldn't argue that > they're not part of the same genetic process, but the phrase connotes that > distinction for me. > > The main thing for me at the time was the evidence I was seeing regarding > not underestimating what kinds of things he could respond to (within the > context of an obviously important relationship). > > Huw > > > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Huw Lloyd > > wrote: > > > > > As has already been stated, it depends upon what one means by 'symbol' > > and > > > it also depends upon how such symbols are introduced. > > > > > > For example, the set of graphemes constituting a written word may be > > > referred to as a symbolic model of the phonemic structure of the word. > > > > > > With respect to picture-word correspondence, this could feasibly help > > with > > > understanding the nature of words as referring to conceptions rather > than > > > the immediacy of things themselves in early development. > > > > > > When our first child was about 12 months, we used a photo album of > > everyday > > > objects from around the house to help distinguish between the words and > > the > > > objects referred to. One day I sat down and requested, in a purposeful > > > tone, that he put my shoe on the trolley (I didn't use gestures) and > was > > > fairly gobsmacked when he simply set off and did it. This was at a > time > > > when he wasn't saying any recognisable words, let alone sentence sounds > > > with predicates in them. Shoes were not part of his repertoire of toy > > > objects, and the trolley wasn't being used (at the time) as a thing to > > > carry other things with. > > > > > > It would still be difficult to demonstrate a clear link, but where I > > would > > > theoretically place it is in relating the word to the conception of the > > > object (the memory of the perception). This fits with the nature of my > > > request, as the trolley was not in sight at the time (but it was one of > > the > > > items in the album). > > > > > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11 March 2015 at 05:59, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > > > > I am forwarding this message from a good friend who has a question > > about > > > > literacy education. > > > > If you know of research on this question, perhaps you could cc Mike > B. > > in > > > > your reply. > > > > *** > > > > My sister is in the education field and she is looking for theory and > > > > research to refute an influential paper which claims introducing > > symbols > > > to > > > > non-readers actually hampers their ability to develop literacy > skills. > > > The > > > > little I have read on AT and semiotics seems to at least indicate > that > > > > under certain conditions, symbols can aid literacy. But I am looking > > for > > > > something specific and/or definite. > > > > *** > > > > Andy > > > > -- > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Mar 11 16:55:58 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:55:58 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> Message-ID: <31050926-2CED-4BD7-B0B5-B556EE967435@gmail.com> Hi David, I had spent years of deadening study of Spanish for four years in high school and the first two years of college, before my junior year in Madrid, where I really learned the language. I am convinced that my study of grammar prior to Madrid prepared me somewhat, but it was actually forcing myself to use it in Madrid that made the difference. From then on I really knew how the study of grammar and memorization of vocabulary could allow me to communicate, miraculously and joyously, with people all over the world, ON THEIR TURF. My son has found much the same in learning Spanish and Portuguese. He is now seriously considering becoming a court interpreter. One of the main strategies for preparing to do such a thing is ?shadowing?: repeating soto voce (under your breath) a stream of speech, say from a radio or television or movie. (Actually a strategy for some learners who have problems processing spoken language.) What I am saying is: I wonder how important the use of any technology, book or computer, depends on how a learner is motivated to actually put to use what he is learning with the technology. For example, the Bible, evidently has been a very important means to the learning of literacy. I think saving your soul would count as a motivator. Personally, language labs helped me a great deal in becoming fluent in Portuguese and French. But then I fell in love with my Brazilian teacher. And I knew I was going to have a blast in France. Moreover, the lab had more than repetition drills, and included substitution drills (requiring the learner to say a sentence with the correct form of a verb, or adjective, or noun). I know that computers make very interactive use of a target language in labs today. Though this was not possible in the 60s, I can recall imagining myself actually using the language on the street, so to speak, as I studied in the lab. I don?t think this disagrees with your main point that killing by drilling is deadening. But the motivation and imagination of the learner make a big difference. Henry > On Mar 11, 2015, at 3:52 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Human language learning at the University of Chicago in the mid-seventies > (which I did as an undergraduate in the Chinese department) was a lot like > rodent maze-learning. You checked into the language laboratory for two > hours of drilling almost every day. It went something like this: > > TAPE RECORDER: "Ni you shu mei you?--piao" (Do you have a book--a ticket) > STUDENT: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > TAPE RECORDER: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > STUDENT: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > > As you can see, there's a stimulus, a response, a reinforcement, and an a > reinforcement of the reinforcement, just to be extra sure. That was from > the educational psychology point of view then current, which Mike may well > recognize from HIS undergraduate days. > >> From the early activity theory point of view, I take it what I was doing > was something like this: I was the subject, the language laboratory was a > tool/sign artefact, the correct model was the object upon which I was > operating and the correct response was the outcome. The rules were that I > was to do this five days a week, and there was a sign-in sheet delivered to > a teaching assistant on a weekly basis. The community, therefore, did not > include a professor, but it did include a fellow student paid minimum wage > to supervise the language laboratory (I speak feelingly, I did it before I > got a better paying job as a janitor), and I could glimpse of the tops of > the heads of my classmates in other cubicles when I stood up to leave after > two hours. Such was the division of labor. > > You can see this fairly crude version of AT in a lot of articles in MCA. In > Vol. 15, No. 3, on p. 182, Wolff-Michael Roth uses it to lay out the A.N. > Leontiev's prototypical primitive communism situation (the hunters and > beaters). Iin vol. 15, No 4. on p. 327, Helena Worthen uses it to talk > about teaching people to negotiate working conditions. In Vol. 16, No. 2, > on p. 136, Norman Friesen uses something even more crude--the so-called > speech circuit, from Saussure's 1911 Course in General Linguistics > (complete with droopy lines connecting a speaker's mouth to a hearer's > ear!) I take it that the model of language in ALL of these is basically > that of my old language laboratory: the objects of language are essentially > objects without minds, aspects of the environment to be acted upon in order > to achieve particular outcomes, no different from a stone to be made into a > tool, or a mastodon to be transformed into dinner. > > The problem is that this view of language is essentially that of your > average psychotic serial killer. It doesn't capture the simple fact that > the object of language is not an object at all, but rather a fellow > subject--often--yea, if we believe Chomsky, most often, that is, in the > vast majority of instances of language use we encounter in a single > day--the object is actually myself. I think there are some uses of AT (even > the Engestrom triangle) which very clearly DO take this into account. I > have seen some versions of the Engestrom triangle where it is used to link > two subjects and there is no object at all. In Vol. 13, No. 4, Katherine > Brown and Jule Gomez de Garcia point out that even in the unnatural > conditions of language use we find in a literacy classroom, the object of > language use is always SHARED with other human subjects. > > In 1984, eight years after I'd left the University of Chicago, I found > myself on a bus in Beijing. The bus was full as only Beijing buses could be > in those days, and a scratchy din emanated from a tiny loudspeaker near > where I was standing. I watched as people one by one got on the bus, pushed > their way to the conductor, and bought a ticket, and only then did I > realize that the loudspeaker was a human voice saying: > > "Mei piao mai piao, a! Mei piao mai piao, a!" > > In other words, "Do you have a ticket?" > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > On 12 March 2015 at 01:11, mike cole wrote: > >> It is great to see this discussion broaden out temporally to take us back >> to the oldest of communications media we can manage. The question raised in >> this manner is more or less what we set out to explore when we created a >> Department of Communication at UCSD with checkered success. >> >> Very interesting to see the lists and previously unspeaking voices appear, >> almost as if a minicurriculum in "The history of human mediational means >> and their associated lifeworlds" were lurking out there in xmca-land. >> >> To help me understand just a corner of this vaste terrain, might you, >> David, expand on these comments: >> >> Nevertheless, the tape recorder has had an impact on pedagogy that is >> almost negligible. In EFL, where I now work, it served to make a huge >> amount of money for the distributors of language laboratories. But language >> laboratories worked by fencing learners into cubicles, and *replacing the* >> >> *subject-subject relation we find in natural language use with >> asubject-object relation which we find in crude versions of Activity >> Theory.* >> >> Given our ongoing discussions about the varieties of and attitudes toward >> different versions of "THE" Activity Theory, it would help me to understand >> clear examples of a crude version >> of AT and how it is applied alongside a subtle/better version of AT and how >> it is applied in a different way. >> >> I am conjecturing that if we could get some broad, "germ cell" >> understanding of the issue in bold above, it might serve as an analytic >> lens through which to view of the history of mediation and activity in >> human life. >> mike >> >> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >> wrote: >> >>> Seven things I learned from What People Said About Books in 1498, by John >>> H. Lienhard (http://www.uh.edu/engines/indiana.htm): >>> >>> 1. Sharing is a cultural invention, not a technological one. Sharing must >>> be reinvented in each community and in each generation. >>> >>> 2. Caxton was not a cultural snob. >>> >>> 3. Margaret was one cool hipster. >>> >>> 4. Mennochio and I have a few things in common, but I hope to live to be >>> an old woman and not charcoal on a stick. >>> >>> 5. I regret Lienhard's the analysis of Medieval scholars using >>> Myers-Briggs. I wish that rubric would just die. >>> >>> 6. "We cannot have a clue as to what any technological future will be >>> until we learn it from a new generation of users." <-- What he said!!! >>> >>> 7. We can only know what we know when we have an idea what we don't know. >>> Which is why I love what he said about seeking our ignorance. And: "To >>> impose is not to discover." Yeah. That. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Mar 11 16:58:49 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 23:58:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> , Message-ID: <1426118328942.70970@unm.edu> Hi, These examples of tape recorders in language labs verses automated recordings on buses seem to say a lot about contexts to me. Specifically environments (which include subject-objects, object-subjects, subjects, and objects). But ALSO not just environments and others: Affects and feelings and motivations, *too*. That all of these are exceptionally important to take into consideration when reading, listening, judging, and comparing, and then writing. Sometimes we skip steps, not intentionally, but also, not all the time. (I am learning about affects lately, thanks to a book Paul Mocombe recommended, BTW) Apparently an affect is like a wordless feeling; Something coming from the environment (which can be from another person or people, though I wonder if it's possible just from the environment without people, as well). Affect seems to be something unconscious. Feeling, however is more concrete, and therefore more conscious, and thus seated within our embodied experience in a different way than affect is embodied, whereby for a feeling, the affect has been transformed into a thought, but not a thought in the sense of a cerebral-thought, but a feeling-thought. Unfortunately my vocabulary fails me here. Hence: Affect + Transformation into thought = Feeling Trouble arises when affect isn't transformed. Perhaps tool use (such as when speaking or writing or reading, or baking lasagna, running, raking leaves, playing the saxophone) assists in this transformation. I can't help but include in this concept in this thread about the impact of computers. That much of the profile of computer usage, just like other tools, is how they transmit emotion to us, and how do we know (with certainty) what is authentic emotion in something like an email or a list serve post? Posts on listservs are not just words. Something does convey even if the sense is a shattered or muffled sense. What is lacking in the profile of this tool called a computer, is the means of repair that is usually done in the world without computers in the middle. Likely because there is not a stable context or environment in which to do that. Particularly where people are in different timezones. This feature is absent from the printing press and distribution of books, because the feedback loop was entirely different with many gatekeepers. Computers attached to a network has little friction (compared to 1400 transmissions of words in books). Even we see something similar in the cameras as apparatus (apparati?) A large format camera takes an entirely different photograph from a 35mm camera from a 2-? format camera. This has to do with lenses, f-stops, film speed, whether a tripod is required or not. One really understands this concept after using different cameras. The comparison can be made for those of us who used Instamatics and now use an iPhone to take pictures, so I don't mean to privilege this to only committed photogs. Since computers and the manner that they transmit affect and feeling can have such an impact on so many people, I'm not sure how that doesn't make a difference. Certainly, television has made a difference to us. It fired all the babysitters for example. Now the televisions are being fired in favor of video games, youTube, and other various preoccupations on the digital wave. Some researchers are saying that kids brains are being rewired from this ubiquitous use of computers. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but it does seem that kids take to playing with them in an easier fashion than their parents. I don't think we can therefore isolate words from our experience, but as you point out David, they that must be contextualized in the wider world. I am reading that as what you are saying. Of course I may have misunderstood your affect, feelings, and motivations, or you may also misunderstand mine. And so we cast ourselves into the void and hope for the best, giving the other the benefit of the doubt. We hope. Kind regards, Annalisa From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Mar 11 17:15:50 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 00:15:50 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> Message-ID: As with symbols, it's how you use artefacts (like computers) that counts. >From Papert and Kay, I would take two principal ideas: First (Papert), the dynamic nature of the computer to manifest phenomena like calculus. For example, the theoretical generative action behind the geometric circle can not only be conceived of as a string moved whilst held taught and held down at one end, but in the seemingly simpler anthropomorphic notion of repeatedly moving forward a set distance and then turning a set angle. Second (Kay), the treatment of a computational object (of design & implementation) as a virtual computer. Interestingly, both of these contributions can be understood as conforming to genetic/dialectical-materialist principles. But what we have had as a result of an industry of commercialisation is a massive imposition of formal logic onto these notions. Lienhard seems to take a similar view with respect to the macro influence of Gutenberg printing, but he didn't refer to any mediational influence, such as the capacity to maintain a sustained enquiry through the use of written language. He also didn't refer to the 16th century appearance of Galileo, which is often taken as a qualitative milestone in the divergence of science from Aristotelean thought, which may well have been derived from a sustained presentation and critique of Aristotelean concepts. A similar view can be seen when we study activity theory and its antecedents. Psychological development (as opposed to learning) in these approaches is deeply concerned with qualitative changes in generalisation, which is the manifestation of different kinds of logical thinking -- the ability to reflexively and voluntarily use memory according to different systems of practice. The psychologically special thing about language (and print) is how it can be used to interact with our memories. This is also, clearly, a property of computational devices, except it is not merely a mnemonic guide to our memories. The impression that I have of our collectively western society is that it is utterly swamped in formal logic and its mode of operation. Our schools and universities are probably the worst of all in this regard, such that even raising the notion of schooling based upon creative understanding seems to bewilder people (and small wonder that innovators in logic were also technical innovators, because it is necessary to create and design in order to learn how to think). When I was studying for my first degree (computing), I came across a rather fascinating book by Burrell & Morgan called Sociological Paradigms and Organisational Analysis. Later on, whilst I was studying personality and trying to figure out why the Jung-Myers-Briggs typology was better than other popular formulations, I kept thinking about the relationship between personality and those sociological paradigms (see page 29). At around that time, I would have put myself in the subjective camp of paradigms because I related to the fluidity and dynamism of the mode of communication and the objective paradigms were far too stale and dealing only with externalities. But what I didn't realise for quite a while was that objective approach was actually divisible into formal and genetic variants. And that is what I think most people who reject an interest in objects and objectivity overlook, because the genetic and dynamic view of objectivity incorporates the good qualities of both subjective idealism and positivist objectivity, but it requires theoretical knowledge (an understanding of how to create things) in order to get there. Huw On 11 March 2015 at 16:11, mike cole wrote: > It is great to see this discussion broaden out temporally to take us back > to the oldest of communications media we can manage. The question raised in > this manner is more or less what we set out to explore when we created a > Department of Communication at UCSD with checkered success. > > Very interesting to see the lists and previously unspeaking voices appear, > almost as if a minicurriculum in "The history of human mediational means > and their associated lifeworlds" were lurking out there in xmca-land. > > To help me understand just a corner of this vaste terrain, might you, > David, expand on these comments: > > Nevertheless, the tape recorder has had an impact on pedagogy that is > almost negligible. In EFL, where I now work, it served to make a huge > amount of money for the distributors of language laboratories. But language > laboratories worked by fencing learners into cubicles, and *replacing the* > > *subject-subject relation we find in natural language use with > asubject-object relation which we find in crude versions of Activity > Theory.* > > Given our ongoing discussions about the varieties of and attitudes toward > different versions of "THE" Activity Theory, it would help me to understand > clear examples of a crude version > of AT and how it is applied alongside a subtle/better version of AT and how > it is applied in a different way. > > I am conjecturing that if we could get some broad, "germ cell" > understanding of the issue in bold above, it might serve as an analytic > lens through which to view of the history of mediation and activity in > human life. > mike > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > Seven things I learned from What People Said About Books in 1498, by John > > H. Lienhard (http://www.uh.edu/engines/indiana.htm): > > > > 1. Sharing is a cultural invention, not a technological one. Sharing must > > be reinvented in each community and in each generation. > > > > 2. Caxton was not a cultural snob. > > > > 3. Margaret was one cool hipster. > > > > 4. Mennochio and I have a few things in common, but I hope to live to be > > an old woman and not charcoal on a stick. > > > > 5. I regret Lienhard's the analysis of Medieval scholars using > > Myers-Briggs. I wish that rubric would just die. > > > > 6. "We cannot have a clue as to what any technological future will be > > until we learn it from a new generation of users." <-- What he said!!! > > > > 7. We can only know what we know when we have an idea what we don't know. > > Which is why I love what he said about seeking our ignorance. And: "To > > impose is not to discover." Yeah. That. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From ablunden@mira.net Wed Mar 11 17:32:45 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:32:45 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> Message-ID: <5500DEAD.3030407@mira.net> So true, Huw! I think it deserves some reflection among CHAT theorists who take an interest in cultural development that when a non-literate community comes into contact with "civilisation" they actually meet two different things for the first time. (1) They come into contact with *civilisation*, a.k.a. institutions which have developed culture with the aid of the written word, and the interaction between the written word and technique, and the immensely productive spiral of development which has given us Mozart, Beethoven, Darwin, Einstein, and Harpo Marx. That is dialectical logic. (2) They come into contact with *bureaucracy*, which in its mission to manage the collective lives of very large numbers of people, has utilised the written word to break down the true concepts created by the culture into neat little pigeon holes for filing away, and is dedicated to inculcating the minds of our children into thinking in terms of taxonomy, rather than true concepts. That is formal logic. I think there is a lot of confusion between civilisation and bureaucracy, and consequently between true concepts (which nonliterate people have, albeit within a limited scope of experience) and pseudoconcepts (which are the great love of bureaucracy, the commercial world and positivist science.) Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Huw Lloyd wrote: > ... > > The impression that I have of our collectively western society is that it > is utterly swamped in formal logic and its mode of operation. Our schools > and universities are probably the worst of all in this regard, such that > even raising the notion of schooling based upon creative understanding > seems to bewilder people (and small wonder that innovators in logic were > also technical innovators, because it is necessary to create and design in > order to learn how to think). > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Mar 11 17:33:38 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 00:33:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Can symbols help people learning to read? In-Reply-To: References: <54FFD9C3.3000508@mira.net> Message-ID: I couldn't say, Greg. I'm not familiar with the anecdote. Huw On 11 March 2015 at 22:57, Greg Thompson wrote: > Huw, > Sounds kinda like Tomasello's kids who put the "gazzer" in the barn. (did I > get the term right?). > Cool stuff all around! > -greg > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > On 11 March 2015 at 17:08, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Huw-- > > > > > > Would you say that your son's action is evidence of the use of > productive > > > imagination? > > > mike > > > > > > > > That suggests a voluntary recollection, whereas I suspect it was more or > > less an involuntary image voluntarily acted upon. I wouldn't argue that > > they're not part of the same genetic process, but the phrase connotes > that > > distinction for me. > > > > The main thing for me at the time was the evidence I was seeing regarding > > not underestimating what kinds of things he could respond to (within the > > context of an obviously important relationship). > > > > Huw > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Huw Lloyd > > > wrote: > > > > > > > As has already been stated, it depends upon what one means by > 'symbol' > > > and > > > > it also depends upon how such symbols are introduced. > > > > > > > > For example, the set of graphemes constituting a written word may be > > > > referred to as a symbolic model of the phonemic structure of the > word. > > > > > > > > With respect to picture-word correspondence, this could feasibly help > > > with > > > > understanding the nature of words as referring to conceptions rather > > than > > > > the immediacy of things themselves in early development. > > > > > > > > When our first child was about 12 months, we used a photo album of > > > everyday > > > > objects from around the house to help distinguish between the words > and > > > the > > > > objects referred to. One day I sat down and requested, in a > purposeful > > > > tone, that he put my shoe on the trolley (I didn't use gestures) and > > was > > > > fairly gobsmacked when he simply set off and did it. This was at a > > time > > > > when he wasn't saying any recognisable words, let alone sentence > sounds > > > > with predicates in them. Shoes were not part of his repertoire of > toy > > > > objects, and the trolley wasn't being used (at the time) as a thing > to > > > > carry other things with. > > > > > > > > It would still be difficult to demonstrate a clear link, but where I > > > would > > > > theoretically place it is in relating the word to the conception of > the > > > > object (the memory of the perception). This fits with the nature of > my > > > > request, as the trolley was not in sight at the time (but it was one > of > > > the > > > > items in the album). > > > > > > > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11 March 2015 at 05:59, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > > > > > > I am forwarding this message from a good friend who has a question > > > about > > > > > literacy education. > > > > > If you know of research on this question, perhaps you could cc Mike > > B. > > > in > > > > > your reply. > > > > > *** > > > > > My sister is in the education field and she is looking for theory > and > > > > > research to refute an influential paper which claims introducing > > > symbols > > > > to > > > > > non-readers actually hampers their ability to develop literacy > > skills. > > > > The > > > > > little I have read on AT and semiotics seems to at least indicate > > that > > > > > under certain conditions, symbols can aid literacy. But I am > looking > > > for > > > > > something specific and/or definite. > > > > > *** > > > > > Andy > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Mar 11 18:00:39 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 01:00:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: <5500DEAD.3030407@mira.net> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> <5500DEAD.3030407@mira.net> Message-ID: Unfortunately that seems to tie in with my view that civilisation is the open regard for others and appreciation for the power of objective systems in contradistinction to bureaucratic power. I shall reflect on that. On 12 March 2015 at 00:32, Andy Blunden wrote: > So true, Huw! > I think it deserves some reflection among CHAT theorists who take an > interest in cultural development that when a non-literate community comes > into contact with "civilisation" they actually meet two different things > for the first time. > (1) They come into contact with *civilisation*, a.k.a. institutions which > have developed culture with the aid of the written word, and the > interaction between the written word and technique, and the immensely > productive spiral of development which has given us Mozart, Beethoven, > Darwin, Einstein, and Harpo Marx. That is dialectical logic. > (2) They come into contact with *bureaucracy*, which in its mission to > manage the collective lives of very large numbers of people, has utilised > the written word to break down the true concepts created by the culture > into neat little pigeon holes for filing away, and is dedicated to > inculcating the minds of our children into thinking in terms of taxonomy, > rather than true concepts. That is formal logic. > > I think there is a lot of confusion between civilisation and bureaucracy, > and consequently between true concepts (which nonliterate people have, > albeit within a limited scope of experience) and pseudoconcepts (which are > the great love of bureaucracy, the commercial world and positivist science.) > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> ... >> >> The impression that I have of our collectively western society is that it >> is utterly swamped in formal logic and its mode of operation. Our schools >> and universities are probably the worst of all in this regard, such that >> even raising the notion of schooling based upon creative understanding >> seems to bewilder people (and small wonder that innovators in logic were >> also technical innovators, because it is necessary to create and design in >> order to learn how to think). >> >> >> > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Mar 11 18:09:49 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 18:09:49 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> <5500DEAD.3030407@mira.net> Message-ID: This is a hopeful distinction: "the power of objective systems in contradistinction to bureaucratic power ?." mike? On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 6:00 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Unfortunately that seems to tie in with my view that civilisation is the > open regard for others and appreciation for the power of objective systems > in contradistinction to bureaucratic power. I shall reflect on that. > > > > On 12 March 2015 at 00:32, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > So true, Huw! > > I think it deserves some reflection among CHAT theorists who take an > > interest in cultural development that when a non-literate community comes > > into contact with "civilisation" they actually meet two different things > > for the first time. > > (1) They come into contact with *civilisation*, a.k.a. institutions which > > have developed culture with the aid of the written word, and the > > interaction between the written word and technique, and the immensely > > productive spiral of development which has given us Mozart, Beethoven, > > Darwin, Einstein, and Harpo Marx. That is dialectical logic. > > (2) They come into contact with *bureaucracy*, which in its mission to > > manage the collective lives of very large numbers of people, has utilised > > the written word to break down the true concepts created by the culture > > into neat little pigeon holes for filing away, and is dedicated to > > inculcating the minds of our children into thinking in terms of taxonomy, > > rather than true concepts. That is formal logic. > > > > I think there is a lot of confusion between civilisation and bureaucracy, > > and consequently between true concepts (which nonliterate people have, > > albeit within a limited scope of experience) and pseudoconcepts (which > are > > the great love of bureaucracy, the commercial world and positivist > science.) > > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > >> ... > >> > >> The impression that I have of our collectively western society is that > it > >> is utterly swamped in formal logic and its mode of operation. Our > schools > >> and universities are probably the worst of all in this regard, such that > >> even raising the notion of schooling based upon creative understanding > >> seems to bewilder people (and small wonder that innovators in logic were > >> also technical innovators, because it is necessary to create and design > in > >> order to learn how to think). > >> > >> > >> > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Mar 11 18:15:54 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 18:15:54 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for pushing this inquiry of mine another few paces up the hill, David. I believe I have all those issues of MCA to hand. I'll scout them out and consider them in light of the distinction between vulgar and less-vulgar forms of activity theory. But see if I have this straight. A vulgar AT person reduces mental life to a subject-object dualism in which the fact of an always present subject-subject (essential!) relationship is obliterated in one way or another. I expect that each of your examples will show problem in its own way, but the directionality of the reduction is clear. I believe that this is a common interpretation of Leontiev's form of AT. The Rubenshteinians' slogan was "All to the subject" in protest. I will start looking for the examples you picked out for us. Might you, as a further step, provide examples from published studies (not necessarily in MCA which denies any claim to AT-guru status!) that support non-reductionist versions of AT? Who should we be emulating? I'll stick with this topic, although the general issues of history of mediational means and their activity doppelgangers that others are dangling before us is very tempting. As I wrote previously, I think a common approach to making both subject-object/and subject-subject relations BOTH a part of our analyses would be a positive step. Then we might be able to complexify. hedgehog for now mike On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 2:52 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Human language learning at the University of Chicago in the mid-seventies > (which I did as an undergraduate in the Chinese department) was a lot like > rodent maze-learning. You checked into the language laboratory for two > hours of drilling almost every day. It went something like this: > > TAPE RECORDER: "Ni you shu mei you?--piao" (Do you have a book--a ticket) > STUDENT: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > TAPE RECORDER: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > STUDENT: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > > As you can see, there's a stimulus, a response, a reinforcement, and an a > reinforcement of the reinforcement, just to be extra sure. That was from > the educational psychology point of view then current, which Mike may well > recognize from HIS undergraduate days. > > >From the early activity theory point of view, I take it what I was doing > was something like this: I was the subject, the language laboratory was a > tool/sign artefact, the correct model was the object upon which I was > operating and the correct response was the outcome. The rules were that I > was to do this five days a week, and there was a sign-in sheet delivered to > a teaching assistant on a weekly basis. The community, therefore, did not > include a professor, but it did include a fellow student paid minimum wage > to supervise the language laboratory (I speak feelingly, I did it before I > got a better paying job as a janitor), and I could glimpse of the tops of > the heads of my classmates in other cubicles when I stood up to leave after > two hours. Such was the division of labor. > > You can see this fairly crude version of AT in a lot of articles in MCA. In > Vol. 15, No. 3, on p. 182, Wolff-Michael Roth uses it to lay out the A.N. > Leontiev's prototypical primitive communism situation (the hunters and > beaters). Iin vol. 15, No 4. on p. 327, Helena Worthen uses it to talk > about teaching people to negotiate working conditions. In Vol. 16, No. 2, > on p. 136, Norman Friesen uses something even more crude--the so-called > speech circuit, from Saussure's 1911 Course in General Linguistics > (complete with droopy lines connecting a speaker's mouth to a hearer's > ear!) I take it that the model of language in ALL of these is basically > that of my old language laboratory: the objects of language are essentially > objects without minds, aspects of the environment to be acted upon in order > to achieve particular outcomes, no different from a stone to be made into a > tool, or a mastodon to be transformed into dinner. > > The problem is that this view of language is essentially that of your > average psychotic serial killer. It doesn't capture the simple fact that > the object of language is not an object at all, but rather a fellow > subject--often--yea, if we believe Chomsky, most often, that is, in the > vast majority of instances of language use we encounter in a single > day--the object is actually myself. I think there are some uses of AT (even > the Engestrom triangle) which very clearly DO take this into account. I > have seen some versions of the Engestrom triangle where it is used to link > two subjects and there is no object at all. In Vol. 13, No. 4, Katherine > Brown and Jule Gomez de Garcia point out that even in the unnatural > conditions of language use we find in a literacy classroom, the object of > language use is always SHARED with other human subjects. > > In 1984, eight years after I'd left the University of Chicago, I found > myself on a bus in Beijing. The bus was full as only Beijing buses could be > in those days, and a scratchy din emanated from a tiny loudspeaker near > where I was standing. I watched as people one by one got on the bus, pushed > their way to the conductor, and bought a ticket, and only then did I > realize that the loudspeaker was a human voice saying: > > "Mei piao mai piao, a! Mei piao mai piao, a!" > > In other words, "Do you have a ticket?" > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > On 12 March 2015 at 01:11, mike cole wrote: > > > It is great to see this discussion broaden out temporally to take us back > > to the oldest of communications media we can manage. The question raised > in > > this manner is more or less what we set out to explore when we created a > > Department of Communication at UCSD with checkered success. > > > > Very interesting to see the lists and previously unspeaking voices > appear, > > almost as if a minicurriculum in "The history of human mediational means > > and their associated lifeworlds" were lurking out there in xmca-land. > > > > To help me understand just a corner of this vaste terrain, might you, > > David, expand on these comments: > > > > Nevertheless, the tape recorder has had an impact on pedagogy that is > > almost negligible. In EFL, where I now work, it served to make a huge > > amount of money for the distributors of language laboratories. But > language > > laboratories worked by fencing learners into cubicles, and *replacing > the* > > > > *subject-subject relation we find in natural language use with > > asubject-object relation which we find in crude versions of Activity > > Theory.* > > > > Given our ongoing discussions about the varieties of and attitudes toward > > different versions of "THE" Activity Theory, it would help me to > understand > > clear examples of a crude version > > of AT and how it is applied alongside a subtle/better version of AT and > how > > it is applied in a different way. > > > > I am conjecturing that if we could get some broad, "germ cell" > > understanding of the issue in bold above, it might serve as an analytic > > lens through which to view of the history of mediation and activity in > > human life. > > mike > > > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > > wrote: > > > > > Seven things I learned from What People Said About Books in 1498, by > John > > > H. Lienhard (http://www.uh.edu/engines/indiana.htm): > > > > > > 1. Sharing is a cultural invention, not a technological one. Sharing > must > > > be reinvented in each community and in each generation. > > > > > > 2. Caxton was not a cultural snob. > > > > > > 3. Margaret was one cool hipster. > > > > > > 4. Mennochio and I have a few things in common, but I hope to live to > be > > > an old woman and not charcoal on a stick. > > > > > > 5. I regret Lienhard's the analysis of Medieval scholars using > > > Myers-Briggs. I wish that rubric would just die. > > > > > > 6. "We cannot have a clue as to what any technological future will be > > > until we learn it from a new generation of users." <-- What he said!!! > > > > > > 7. We can only know what we know when we have an idea what we don't > know. > > > Which is why I love what he said about seeking our ignorance. And: "To > > > impose is not to discover." Yeah. That. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ablunden@mira.net Wed Mar 11 19:44:18 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 13:44:18 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> <5500DEAD.3030407@mira.net> Message-ID: <5500FD82.8040202@mira.net> That is a fair and interesting distinction, Huw. My only point is that culturally/historically the two arrive together along with large number of people living together. Think Jane Jacobs vs your average city planning bureaucrat! Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Huw Lloyd wrote: > Unfortunately that seems to tie in with my view that civilisation is > the open regard for others and appreciation for the power of objective > systems in contradistinction to bureaucratic power. I shall reflect > on that. > > > > On 12 March 2015 at 00:32, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > So true, Huw! > I think it deserves some reflection among CHAT theorists who take > an interest in cultural development that when a non-literate > community comes into contact with "civilisation" they actually > meet two different things for the first time. > (1) They come into contact with *civilisation*, a.k.a. > institutions which have developed culture with the aid of the > written word, and the interaction between the written word and > technique, and the immensely productive spiral of development > which has given us Mozart, Beethoven, Darwin, Einstein, and Harpo > Marx. That is dialectical logic. > (2) They come into contact with *bureaucracy*, which in its > mission to manage the collective lives of very large numbers of > people, has utilised the written word to break down the true > concepts created by the culture into neat little pigeon holes for > filing away, and is dedicated to inculcating the minds of our > children into thinking in terms of taxonomy, rather than true > concepts. That is formal logic. > > I think there is a lot of confusion between civilisation and > bureaucracy, and consequently between true concepts (which > nonliterate people have, albeit within a limited scope of > experience) and pseudoconcepts (which are the great love of > bureaucracy, the commercial world and positivist science.) > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > Huw Lloyd wrote: > > ... > > The impression that I have of our collectively western society > is that it > is utterly swamped in formal logic and its mode of operation. > Our schools > and universities are probably the worst of all in this regard, > such that > even raising the notion of schooling based upon creative > understanding > seems to bewilder people (and small wonder that innovators in > logic were > also technical innovators, because it is necessary to create > and design in > order to learn how to think). > > > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu Mar 12 09:05:15 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 10:05:15 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: <1426118328942.70970@unm.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> <, > <1426118328942.70970@unm.edu> Message-ID: <8DDDDDE1-78E8-4726-A7C3-7F41B62A4CC0@gmail.com> Hi Too, Annalisa has spilled some virtual ink pondering affect and feeling. I have struggled with the same issue. Andy, through Academia, has just made available his article. ?The Germ Cell of Vygotsky?s Science?, from which the following quote: "In each of the areas of psychological research into which Vygotsky went, his aim was to establish a unit of analysis. He was not always successful, and for example, his study of the emotions failed to arrive at a unit of analysis before his death in 1934.? How and why did Vygotsky fail? This question may be off-thread, or not. Henry P.S. Annalisa, you use the term ?repair?. Could you explain how that fits with affect and feeling? > On Mar 11, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi, > > These examples of tape recorders in language labs verses automated recordings on buses seem to say a lot about contexts to me. Specifically environments (which include subject-objects, object-subjects, subjects, and objects). > > But ALSO not just environments and others: Affects and feelings and motivations, *too*. > > That all of these are exceptionally important to take into consideration when reading, listening, judging, and comparing, and then writing. Sometimes we skip steps, not intentionally, but also, not all the time. > > (I am learning about affects lately, thanks to a book Paul Mocombe recommended, BTW) > > Apparently an affect is like a wordless feeling; Something coming from the environment (which can be from another person or people, though I wonder if it's possible just from the environment without people, as well). Affect seems to be something unconscious. Feeling, however is more concrete, and therefore more conscious, and thus seated within our embodied experience in a different way than affect is embodied, whereby for a feeling, the affect has been transformed into a thought, but not a thought in the sense of a cerebral-thought, but a feeling-thought. Unfortunately my vocabulary fails me here. > > Hence: Affect + Transformation into thought = Feeling > > Trouble arises when affect isn't transformed. Perhaps tool use (such as when speaking or writing or reading, or baking lasagna, running, raking leaves, playing the saxophone) assists in this transformation. > > I can't help but include in this concept in this thread about the impact of computers. That much of the profile of computer usage, just like other tools, is how they transmit emotion to us, and how do we know (with certainty) what is authentic emotion in something like an email or a list serve post? > > Posts on listservs are not just words. > > Something does convey even if the sense is a shattered or muffled sense. What is lacking in the profile of this tool called a computer, is the means of repair that is usually done in the world without computers in the middle. Likely because there is not a stable context or environment in which to do that. Particularly where people are in different timezones. > > This feature is absent from the printing press and distribution of books, because the feedback loop was entirely different with many gatekeepers. Computers attached to a network has little friction (compared to 1400 transmissions of words in books). > > Even we see something similar in the cameras as apparatus (apparati?) A large format camera takes an entirely different photograph from a 35mm camera from a 2-? format camera. This has to do with lenses, f-stops, film speed, whether a tripod is required or not. One really understands this concept after using different cameras. The comparison can be made for those of us who used Instamatics and now use an iPhone to take pictures, so I don't mean to privilege this to only committed photogs. > > Since computers and the manner that they transmit affect and feeling can have such an impact on so many people, I'm not sure how that doesn't make a difference. > > Certainly, television has made a difference to us. It fired all the babysitters for example. Now the televisions are being fired in favor of video games, youTube, and other various preoccupations on the digital wave. > > Some researchers are saying that kids brains are being rewired from this ubiquitous use of computers. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but it does seem that kids take to playing with them in an easier fashion than their parents. > > I don't think we can therefore isolate words from our experience, but as you point out David, they that must be contextualized in the wider world. I am reading that as what you are saying. > > Of course I may have misunderstood your affect, feelings, and motivations, or you may also misunderstand mine. > > And so we cast ourselves into the void and hope for the best, giving the other the benefit of the doubt. > > We hope. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Mar 12 09:24:28 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 09:24:28 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: <8DDDDDE1-78E8-4726-A7C3-7F41B62A4CC0@gmail.com> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> <1426118328942.70970@unm.edu> <8DDDDDE1-78E8-4726-A7C3-7F41B62A4CC0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Your query, Henry, returns us to the discussion of LSV's article on the environment from a couple of months ago and the concept of perezhivanie, the translation of which several experts are certain they know the proper interpretation. Unfortunately, they are not in agreement. (This is true of both Russian and English-writing scholars within and between language/culture communities) Vasiliuk's book, "The psychology of experiencing" is floating around in pdf form somewhere. His focus there is on perezhivanie. More recently he has been focused on this concept with respect to psychotherapy. I believe this work is being translated now, and is about to appear in English, but am not sure. mike On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:05 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Hi Too, > Annalisa has spilled some virtual ink pondering affect and feeling. I have > struggled with the same issue. Andy, through Academia, has just made > available his article. ?The Germ Cell of Vygotsky?s Science?, from which > the following quote: > > "In each of the areas of psychological research into which Vygotsky went, > his aim was to establish a unit of analysis. He was not always successful, > and for example, his study of the emotions failed to arrive at a unit of > analysis before his death in 1934.? > > How and why did Vygotsky fail? This question may be off-thread, or not. > > Henry > > P.S. Annalisa, you use the term ?repair?. Could you explain how that fits > with affect and feeling? > > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 11, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > These examples of tape recorders in language labs verses automated > recordings on buses seem to say a lot about contexts to me. Specifically > environments (which include subject-objects, object-subjects, subjects, and > objects). > > > > But ALSO not just environments and others: Affects and feelings and > motivations, *too*. > > > > That all of these are exceptionally important to take into consideration > when reading, listening, judging, and comparing, and then writing. > Sometimes we skip steps, not intentionally, but also, not all the time. > > > > (I am learning about affects lately, thanks to a book Paul Mocombe > recommended, BTW) > > > > Apparently an affect is like a wordless feeling; Something coming from > the environment (which can be from another person or people, though I > wonder if it's possible just from the environment without people, as well). > Affect seems to be something unconscious. Feeling, however is more > concrete, and therefore more conscious, and thus seated within our embodied > experience in a different way than affect is embodied, whereby for a > feeling, the affect has been transformed into a thought, but not a thought > in the sense of a cerebral-thought, but a feeling-thought. Unfortunately my > vocabulary fails me here. > > > > Hence: Affect + Transformation into thought = Feeling > > > > Trouble arises when affect isn't transformed. Perhaps tool use (such as > when speaking or writing or reading, or baking lasagna, running, raking > leaves, playing the saxophone) assists in this transformation. > > > > I can't help but include in this concept in this thread about the impact > of computers. That much of the profile of computer usage, just like other > tools, is how they transmit emotion to us, and how do we know (with > certainty) what is authentic emotion in something like an email or a list > serve post? > > > > Posts on listservs are not just words. > > > > Something does convey even if the sense is a shattered or muffled sense. > What is lacking in the profile of this tool called a computer, is the means > of repair that is usually done in the world without computers in the > middle. Likely because there is not a stable context or environment in > which to do that. Particularly where people are in different timezones. > > > > This feature is absent from the printing press and distribution of > books, because the feedback loop was entirely different with many > gatekeepers. Computers attached to a network has little friction (compared > to 1400 transmissions of words in books). > > > > Even we see something similar in the cameras as apparatus (apparati?) A > large format camera takes an entirely different photograph from a 35mm > camera from a 2-? format camera. This has to do with lenses, f-stops, film > speed, whether a tripod is required or not. One really understands this > concept after using different cameras. The comparison can be made for those > of us who used Instamatics and now use an iPhone to take pictures, so I > don't mean to privilege this to only committed photogs. > > > > Since computers and the manner that they transmit affect and feeling can > have such an impact on so many people, I'm not sure how that doesn't make a > difference. > > > > Certainly, television has made a difference to us. It fired all the > babysitters for example. Now the televisions are being fired in favor of > video games, youTube, and other various preoccupations on the digital wave. > > > > Some researchers are saying that kids brains are being rewired from this > ubiquitous use of computers. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but it > does seem that kids take to playing with them in an easier fashion than > their parents. > > > > I don't think we can therefore isolate words from our experience, but as > you point out David, they that must be contextualized in the wider world. I > am reading that as what you are saying. > > > > Of course I may have misunderstood your affect, feelings, and > motivations, or you may also misunderstand mine. > > > > And so we cast ourselves into the void and hope for the best, giving the > other the benefit of the doubt. > > > > We hope. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu Mar 12 09:48:50 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 10:48:50 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> <1426118328942.70970@unm.edu> <8DDDDDE1-78E8-4726-A7C3-7F41B62A4CC0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you, Mike, I looked into Vasiluk and found the following response on XMCA in November 2007 to you from Yordanka Valkanova on the meaning of ?perezhivanie?: "An analogous discussion to ours has taken place among the translators of Stanislavsky's works. Stanislavsky considered perezhivanie as a main concept of his system. He used the term in a different sense. He referred to the actor's 'living the role', or experiencing being the other and feeling the emotions of this other as his/her own. Although the meaning of Stanislavsky's perezhivanie is in a way distant from Vygotsky's concept, the discussion around its translation illustrates how difficult it is to express the meaning of this old Slavonic word into English.? I find all of the connections between Vygotsky and performance to be very interesting. Perizhivanie definitely has the sense of performance. And a unity of an external act and an internal thinking/feeling. Henry > On Mar 12, 2015, at 10:24 AM, mike cole wrote: > > Your query, Henry, returns us to the discussion of LSV's article on the > environment from a couple of months ago and the concept of perezhivanie, > the translation of which several experts are certain they know the proper > interpretation. Unfortunately, they are not in agreement. (This is true of > both Russian and English-writing scholars within and between > language/culture communities) > > Vasiliuk's book, "The psychology of experiencing" is floating around in pdf > form somewhere. His focus there is on perezhivanie. More recently he has > been focused on this concept with respect to psychotherapy. I believe this > work is being translated now, and is about to appear in English, but am not > sure. > > mike > > On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:05 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Hi Too, >> Annalisa has spilled some virtual ink pondering affect and feeling. I have >> struggled with the same issue. Andy, through Academia, has just made >> available his article. ?The Germ Cell of Vygotsky?s Science?, from which >> the following quote: >> >> "In each of the areas of psychological research into which Vygotsky went, >> his aim was to establish a unit of analysis. He was not always successful, >> and for example, his study of the emotions failed to arrive at a unit of >> analysis before his death in 1934.? >> >> How and why did Vygotsky fail? This question may be off-thread, or not. >> >> Henry >> >> P.S. Annalisa, you use the term ?repair?. Could you explain how that fits >> with affect and feeling? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Mar 11, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> These examples of tape recorders in language labs verses automated >> recordings on buses seem to say a lot about contexts to me. Specifically >> environments (which include subject-objects, object-subjects, subjects, and >> objects). >>> >>> But ALSO not just environments and others: Affects and feelings and >> motivations, *too*. >>> >>> That all of these are exceptionally important to take into consideration >> when reading, listening, judging, and comparing, and then writing. >> Sometimes we skip steps, not intentionally, but also, not all the time. >>> >>> (I am learning about affects lately, thanks to a book Paul Mocombe >> recommended, BTW) >>> >>> Apparently an affect is like a wordless feeling; Something coming from >> the environment (which can be from another person or people, though I >> wonder if it's possible just from the environment without people, as well). >> Affect seems to be something unconscious. Feeling, however is more >> concrete, and therefore more conscious, and thus seated within our embodied >> experience in a different way than affect is embodied, whereby for a >> feeling, the affect has been transformed into a thought, but not a thought >> in the sense of a cerebral-thought, but a feeling-thought. Unfortunately my >> vocabulary fails me here. >>> >>> Hence: Affect + Transformation into thought = Feeling >>> >>> Trouble arises when affect isn't transformed. Perhaps tool use (such as >> when speaking or writing or reading, or baking lasagna, running, raking >> leaves, playing the saxophone) assists in this transformation. >>> >>> I can't help but include in this concept in this thread about the impact >> of computers. That much of the profile of computer usage, just like other >> tools, is how they transmit emotion to us, and how do we know (with >> certainty) what is authentic emotion in something like an email or a list >> serve post? >>> >>> Posts on listservs are not just words. >>> >>> Something does convey even if the sense is a shattered or muffled sense. >> What is lacking in the profile of this tool called a computer, is the means >> of repair that is usually done in the world without computers in the >> middle. Likely because there is not a stable context or environment in >> which to do that. Particularly where people are in different timezones. >>> >>> This feature is absent from the printing press and distribution of >> books, because the feedback loop was entirely different with many >> gatekeepers. Computers attached to a network has little friction (compared >> to 1400 transmissions of words in books). >>> >>> Even we see something similar in the cameras as apparatus (apparati?) A >> large format camera takes an entirely different photograph from a 35mm >> camera from a 2-? format camera. This has to do with lenses, f-stops, film >> speed, whether a tripod is required or not. One really understands this >> concept after using different cameras. The comparison can be made for those >> of us who used Instamatics and now use an iPhone to take pictures, so I >> don't mean to privilege this to only committed photogs. >>> >>> Since computers and the manner that they transmit affect and feeling can >> have such an impact on so many people, I'm not sure how that doesn't make a >> difference. >>> >>> Certainly, television has made a difference to us. It fired all the >> babysitters for example. Now the televisions are being fired in favor of >> video games, youTube, and other various preoccupations on the digital wave. >>> >>> Some researchers are saying that kids brains are being rewired from this >> ubiquitous use of computers. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but it >> does seem that kids take to playing with them in an easier fashion than >> their parents. >>> >>> I don't think we can therefore isolate words from our experience, but as >> you point out David, they that must be contextualized in the wider world. I >> am reading that as what you are saying. >>> >>> Of course I may have misunderstood your affect, feelings, and >> motivations, or you may also misunderstand mine. >>> >>> And so we cast ourselves into the void and hope for the best, giving the >> other the benefit of the doubt. >>> >>> We hope. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Mar 12 10:08:36 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 10:08:36 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> <1426118328942.70970@unm.edu> <8DDDDDE1-78E8-4726-A7C3-7F41B62A4CC0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Great that you dug out that connection, Henry, which I have thought of recently, but not gone back to. The links of LSV to the arts cannot be overestimated, which is why some of us are drawn to the use of the dramatic metaphor as a way of raising the concept of "activity" to a level that goes beyond what David has termed vulgar AT by providing a way to think about the "grammar" of joint mediated activities the affords productive instances of rising to the concrete..... by which I mean that using the metaphor in a manner analogous to the way that Yrjo's triangle is used it provides clear example of theoretically important principles-in-action. Note that Yrjo has written on this topic in his earlier work, and works of fiction remain important in his thinking, as in his approach to development-as-breaking away." David, Peter, and others know more about LSV and art than I do, but with respect to that part of LSV's thinking that invokes drama, I have have found connecting his ideas to those of the symbolic interactionists, particularly Kenneth Burke, helpful. Jim Wertsch has also written along these lines. One nice thing about a Communication Dept that combines social sciences, humanities, and arts, is that performance is recognized, albeit implicitly as an essential aspect of human communication in general, not just when an event is conventionally marked as "a performance." In this sense, a Vygotskian perspective is in line with current research on "enactive perception." Incidentally, the article that you-all have chosen to discuss is all about performance and literacy. We are working to get it posted. mike mike On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:48 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Thank you, Mike, > I looked into Vasiluk and found the following response on XMCA in November > 2007 to you from Yordanka Valkanova on the meaning of ?perezhivanie?: > > "An analogous discussion to ours has taken place among the translators of > Stanislavsky's works. Stanislavsky considered perezhivanie as a main > concept > of his system. He used the term in a different sense. He referred to the > actor's 'living the role', or experiencing being the other and feeling the > emotions of this other as his/her own. Although the meaning of > Stanislavsky's perezhivanie is in a way distant from Vygotsky's concept, > the > discussion around its translation illustrates how difficult it is to > express > the meaning of this old Slavonic word into English.? > > I find all of the connections between Vygotsky and performance to be very > interesting. Perizhivanie definitely has the sense of performance. And a > unity of an external act and an internal thinking/feeling. > > Henry > > > > > > > > On Mar 12, 2015, at 10:24 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > Your query, Henry, returns us to the discussion of LSV's article on the > > environment from a couple of months ago and the concept of perezhivanie, > > the translation of which several experts are certain they know the proper > > interpretation. Unfortunately, they are not in agreement. (This is true > of > > both Russian and English-writing scholars within and between > > language/culture communities) > > > > Vasiliuk's book, "The psychology of experiencing" is floating around in > pdf > > form somewhere. His focus there is on perezhivanie. More recently he has > > been focused on this concept with respect to psychotherapy. I believe > this > > work is being translated now, and is about to appear in English, but am > not > > sure. > > > > mike > > > > On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:05 AM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > >> Hi Too, > >> Annalisa has spilled some virtual ink pondering affect and feeling. I > have > >> struggled with the same issue. Andy, through Academia, has just made > >> available his article. ?The Germ Cell of Vygotsky?s Science?, from which > >> the following quote: > >> > >> "In each of the areas of psychological research into which Vygotsky > went, > >> his aim was to establish a unit of analysis. He was not always > successful, > >> and for example, his study of the emotions failed to arrive at a unit of > >> analysis before his death in 1934.? > >> > >> How and why did Vygotsky fail? This question may be off-thread, or not. > >> > >> Henry > >> > >> P.S. Annalisa, you use the term ?repair?. Could you explain how that > fits > >> with affect and feeling? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Mar 11, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> These examples of tape recorders in language labs verses automated > >> recordings on buses seem to say a lot about contexts to me. Specifically > >> environments (which include subject-objects, object-subjects, subjects, > and > >> objects). > >>> > >>> But ALSO not just environments and others: Affects and feelings and > >> motivations, *too*. > >>> > >>> That all of these are exceptionally important to take into > consideration > >> when reading, listening, judging, and comparing, and then writing. > >> Sometimes we skip steps, not intentionally, but also, not all the time. > >>> > >>> (I am learning about affects lately, thanks to a book Paul Mocombe > >> recommended, BTW) > >>> > >>> Apparently an affect is like a wordless feeling; Something coming from > >> the environment (which can be from another person or people, though I > >> wonder if it's possible just from the environment without people, as > well). > >> Affect seems to be something unconscious. Feeling, however is more > >> concrete, and therefore more conscious, and thus seated within our > embodied > >> experience in a different way than affect is embodied, whereby for a > >> feeling, the affect has been transformed into a thought, but not a > thought > >> in the sense of a cerebral-thought, but a feeling-thought. > Unfortunately my > >> vocabulary fails me here. > >>> > >>> Hence: Affect + Transformation into thought = Feeling > >>> > >>> Trouble arises when affect isn't transformed. Perhaps tool use (such as > >> when speaking or writing or reading, or baking lasagna, running, raking > >> leaves, playing the saxophone) assists in this transformation. > >>> > >>> I can't help but include in this concept in this thread about the > impact > >> of computers. That much of the profile of computer usage, just like > other > >> tools, is how they transmit emotion to us, and how do we know (with > >> certainty) what is authentic emotion in something like an email or a > list > >> serve post? > >>> > >>> Posts on listservs are not just words. > >>> > >>> Something does convey even if the sense is a shattered or muffled > sense. > >> What is lacking in the profile of this tool called a computer, is the > means > >> of repair that is usually done in the world without computers in the > >> middle. Likely because there is not a stable context or environment in > >> which to do that. Particularly where people are in different timezones. > >>> > >>> This feature is absent from the printing press and distribution of > >> books, because the feedback loop was entirely different with many > >> gatekeepers. Computers attached to a network has little friction > (compared > >> to 1400 transmissions of words in books). > >>> > >>> Even we see something similar in the cameras as apparatus (apparati?) A > >> large format camera takes an entirely different photograph from a 35mm > >> camera from a 2-? format camera. This has to do with lenses, f-stops, > film > >> speed, whether a tripod is required or not. One really understands this > >> concept after using different cameras. The comparison can be made for > those > >> of us who used Instamatics and now use an iPhone to take pictures, so I > >> don't mean to privilege this to only committed photogs. > >>> > >>> Since computers and the manner that they transmit affect and feeling > can > >> have such an impact on so many people, I'm not sure how that doesn't > make a > >> difference. > >>> > >>> Certainly, television has made a difference to us. It fired all the > >> babysitters for example. Now the televisions are being fired in favor of > >> video games, youTube, and other various preoccupations on the digital > wave. > >>> > >>> Some researchers are saying that kids brains are being rewired from > this > >> ubiquitous use of computers. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but it > >> does seem that kids take to playing with them in an easier fashion than > >> their parents. > >>> > >>> I don't think we can therefore isolate words from our experience, but > as > >> you point out David, they that must be contextualized in the wider > world. I > >> am reading that as what you are saying. > >>> > >>> Of course I may have misunderstood your affect, feelings, and > >> motivations, or you may also misunderstand mine. > >>> > >>> And so we cast ourselves into the void and hope for the best, giving > the > >> other the benefit of the doubt. > >>> > >>> We hope. > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> > >>> Annalisa > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From smago@uga.edu Thu Mar 12 10:48:29 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 17:48:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> <1426118328942.70970@unm.edu> <8DDDDDE1-78E8-4726-A7C3-7F41B62A4CC0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, I can't say I know as much as Mike thinks I know, but I did write an article on Psych of Art (attached). If anyone's interested, I've got several studies of US high school students interpreting Shakespeare plays (mostly Hamlet, for some reason) via spoken word poetry and art. My website's in transition to a new platform so the listings on my online c.v. I think produce dead links, but meantime I'd be happy to send anyone copies (inquire off-list please). Probably available here too: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Smagorinsky -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 1:09 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference Great that you dug out that connection, Henry, which I have thought of recently, but not gone back to. The links of LSV to the arts cannot be overestimated, which is why some of us are drawn to the use of the dramatic metaphor as a way of raising the concept of "activity" to a level that goes beyond what David has termed vulgar AT by providing a way to think about the "grammar" of joint mediated activities the affords productive instances of rising to the concrete..... by which I mean that using the metaphor in a manner analogous to the way that Yrjo's triangle is used it provides clear example of theoretically important principles-in-action. Note that Yrjo has written on this topic in his earlier work, and works of fiction remain important in his thinking, as in his approach to development-as-breaking away." David, Peter, and others know more about LSV and art than I do, but with respect to that part of LSV's thinking that invokes drama, I have have found connecting his ideas to those of the symbolic interactionists, particularly Kenneth Burke, helpful. Jim Wertsch has also written along these lines. One nice thing about a Communication Dept that combines social sciences, humanities, and arts, is that performance is recognized, albeit implicitly as an essential aspect of human communication in general, not just when an event is conventionally marked as "a performance." In this sense, a Vygotskian perspective is in line with current research on "enactive perception." Incidentally, the article that you-all have chosen to discuss is all about performance and literacy. We are working to get it posted. mike mike On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:48 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Thank you, Mike, > I looked into Vasiluk and found the following response on XMCA in > November > 2007 to you from Yordanka Valkanova on the meaning of ?perezhivanie?: > > "An analogous discussion to ours has taken place among the translators > of Stanislavsky's works. Stanislavsky considered perezhivanie as a > main concept of his system. He used the term in a different sense. He > referred to the actor's 'living the role', or experiencing being the > other and feeling the emotions of this other as his/her own. Although > the meaning of Stanislavsky's perezhivanie is in a way distant from > Vygotsky's concept, the discussion around its translation illustrates > how difficult it is to express the meaning of this old Slavonic word > into English.? > > I find all of the connections between Vygotsky and performance to be > very interesting. Perizhivanie definitely has the sense of > performance. And a unity of an external act and an internal thinking/feeling. > > Henry > > > > > > > > On Mar 12, 2015, at 10:24 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > Your query, Henry, returns us to the discussion of LSV's article on > > the environment from a couple of months ago and the concept of > > perezhivanie, the translation of which several experts are certain > > they know the proper interpretation. Unfortunately, they are not in > > agreement. (This is true > of > > both Russian and English-writing scholars within and between > > language/culture communities) > > > > Vasiliuk's book, "The psychology of experiencing" is floating around > > in > pdf > > form somewhere. His focus there is on perezhivanie. More recently he > > has been focused on this concept with respect to psychotherapy. I > > believe > this > > work is being translated now, and is about to appear in English, but > > am > not > > sure. > > > > mike > > > > On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:05 AM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > >> Hi Too, > >> Annalisa has spilled some virtual ink pondering affect and feeling. > >> I > have > >> struggled with the same issue. Andy, through Academia, has just > >> made available his article. ?The Germ Cell of Vygotsky?s Science?, > >> from which the following quote: > >> > >> "In each of the areas of psychological research into which Vygotsky > went, > >> his aim was to establish a unit of analysis. He was not always > successful, > >> and for example, his study of the emotions failed to arrive at a > >> unit of analysis before his death in 1934.? > >> > >> How and why did Vygotsky fail? This question may be off-thread, or not. > >> > >> Henry > >> > >> P.S. Annalisa, you use the term ?repair?. Could you explain how > >> that > fits > >> with affect and feeling? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Mar 11, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> These examples of tape recorders in language labs verses automated > >> recordings on buses seem to say a lot about contexts to me. > >> Specifically environments (which include subject-objects, > >> object-subjects, subjects, > and > >> objects). > >>> > >>> But ALSO not just environments and others: Affects and feelings > >>> and > >> motivations, *too*. > >>> > >>> That all of these are exceptionally important to take into > consideration > >> when reading, listening, judging, and comparing, and then writing. > >> Sometimes we skip steps, not intentionally, but also, not all the time. > >>> > >>> (I am learning about affects lately, thanks to a book Paul Mocombe > >> recommended, BTW) > >>> > >>> Apparently an affect is like a wordless feeling; Something coming > >>> from > >> the environment (which can be from another person or people, though > >> I wonder if it's possible just from the environment without people, > >> as > well). > >> Affect seems to be something unconscious. Feeling, however is more > >> concrete, and therefore more conscious, and thus seated within our > embodied > >> experience in a different way than affect is embodied, whereby for > >> a feeling, the affect has been transformed into a thought, but not > >> a > thought > >> in the sense of a cerebral-thought, but a feeling-thought. > Unfortunately my > >> vocabulary fails me here. > >>> > >>> Hence: Affect + Transformation into thought = Feeling > >>> > >>> Trouble arises when affect isn't transformed. Perhaps tool use > >>> (such as > >> when speaking or writing or reading, or baking lasagna, running, > >> raking leaves, playing the saxophone) assists in this transformation. > >>> > >>> I can't help but include in this concept in this thread about the > impact > >> of computers. That much of the profile of computer usage, just like > other > >> tools, is how they transmit emotion to us, and how do we know (with > >> certainty) what is authentic emotion in something like an email or > >> a > list > >> serve post? > >>> > >>> Posts on listservs are not just words. > >>> > >>> Something does convey even if the sense is a shattered or muffled > sense. > >> What is lacking in the profile of this tool called a computer, is > >> the > means > >> of repair that is usually done in the world without computers in > >> the middle. Likely because there is not a stable context or > >> environment in which to do that. Particularly where people are in different timezones. > >>> > >>> This feature is absent from the printing press and distribution of > >> books, because the feedback loop was entirely different with many > >> gatekeepers. Computers attached to a network has little friction > (compared > >> to 1400 transmissions of words in books). > >>> > >>> Even we see something similar in the cameras as apparatus > >>> (apparati?) A > >> large format camera takes an entirely different photograph from a > >> 35mm camera from a 2-? format camera. This has to do with lenses, > >> f-stops, > film > >> speed, whether a tripod is required or not. One really understands > >> this concept after using different cameras. The comparison can be > >> made for > those > >> of us who used Instamatics and now use an iPhone to take pictures, > >> so I don't mean to privilege this to only committed photogs. > >>> > >>> Since computers and the manner that they transmit affect and > >>> feeling > can > >> have such an impact on so many people, I'm not sure how that > >> doesn't > make a > >> difference. > >>> > >>> Certainly, television has made a difference to us. It fired all > >>> the > >> babysitters for example. Now the televisions are being fired in > >> favor of video games, youTube, and other various preoccupations on > >> the digital > wave. > >>> > >>> Some researchers are saying that kids brains are being rewired > >>> from > this > >> ubiquitous use of computers. I'm not sure how I feel about that, > >> but it does seem that kids take to playing with them in an easier > >> fashion than their parents. > >>> > >>> I don't think we can therefore isolate words from our experience, > >>> but > as > >> you point out David, they that must be contextualized in the wider > world. I > >> am reading that as what you are saying. > >>> > >>> Of course I may have misunderstood your affect, feelings, and > >> motivations, or you may also misunderstand mine. > >>> > >>> And so we cast ourselves into the void and hope for the best, > >>> giving > the > >> other the benefit of the doubt. > >>> > >>> We hope. > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> > >>> Annalisa > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MCA2011-Psychology of Art.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 164342 bytes Desc: MCA2011-Psychology of Art.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150312/47ac5338/attachment.pdf From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Mar 12 11:40:16 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:40:16 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> <1426118328942.70970@unm.edu> <8DDDDDE1-78E8-4726-A7C3-7F41B62A4CC0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Henry--- For another purposes I opened Herbert Simon's book on the sciences of the artificial and guess what I encounter on page 2 of the preface (he says re read the book he is quoting here 40 years earlier at the beginning of his research, so this is from a book called Administrative Behavior that is some 80 years old: *administration* *is* *not* *unlike* *play*-*acting*. The task of the good actor is to know and play his role, although different roles may differ greatly in content. The effec- tiveness of the performance will depend on the effectiveness of the play and the effectiveness with which it is played. *...* serendipity? mike On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:24 AM, mike cole wrote: > Your query, Henry, returns us to the discussion of LSV's article on the > environment from a couple of months ago and the concept of perezhivanie, > the translation of which several experts are certain they know the proper > interpretation. Unfortunately, they are not in agreement. (This is true of > both Russian and English-writing scholars within and between > language/culture communities) > > Vasiliuk's book, "The psychology of experiencing" is floating around in > pdf form somewhere. His focus there is on perezhivanie. More recently he > has been focused on this concept with respect to psychotherapy. I believe > this work is being translated now, and is about to appear in English, but > am not sure. > > mike > > On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:05 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Hi Too, >> Annalisa has spilled some virtual ink pondering affect and feeling. I >> have struggled with the same issue. Andy, through Academia, has just made >> available his article. ?The Germ Cell of Vygotsky?s Science?, from which >> the following quote: >> >> "In each of the areas of psychological research into which Vygotsky went, >> his aim was to establish a unit of analysis. He was not always successful, >> and for example, his study of the emotions failed to arrive at a unit of >> analysis before his death in 1934.? >> >> How and why did Vygotsky fail? This question may be off-thread, or not. >> >> Henry >> >> P.S. Annalisa, you use the term ?repair?. Could you explain how that fits >> with affect and feeling? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Mar 11, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > These examples of tape recorders in language labs verses automated >> recordings on buses seem to say a lot about contexts to me. Specifically >> environments (which include subject-objects, object-subjects, subjects, and >> objects). >> > >> > But ALSO not just environments and others: Affects and feelings and >> motivations, *too*. >> > >> > That all of these are exceptionally important to take into >> consideration when reading, listening, judging, and comparing, and then >> writing. Sometimes we skip steps, not intentionally, but also, not all the >> time. >> > >> > (I am learning about affects lately, thanks to a book Paul Mocombe >> recommended, BTW) >> > >> > Apparently an affect is like a wordless feeling; Something coming from >> the environment (which can be from another person or people, though I >> wonder if it's possible just from the environment without people, as well). >> Affect seems to be something unconscious. Feeling, however is more >> concrete, and therefore more conscious, and thus seated within our embodied >> experience in a different way than affect is embodied, whereby for a >> feeling, the affect has been transformed into a thought, but not a thought >> in the sense of a cerebral-thought, but a feeling-thought. Unfortunately my >> vocabulary fails me here. >> > >> > Hence: Affect + Transformation into thought = Feeling >> > >> > Trouble arises when affect isn't transformed. Perhaps tool use (such as >> when speaking or writing or reading, or baking lasagna, running, raking >> leaves, playing the saxophone) assists in this transformation. >> > >> > I can't help but include in this concept in this thread about the >> impact of computers. That much of the profile of computer usage, just like >> other tools, is how they transmit emotion to us, and how do we know (with >> certainty) what is authentic emotion in something like an email or a list >> serve post? >> > >> > Posts on listservs are not just words. >> > >> > Something does convey even if the sense is a shattered or muffled >> sense. What is lacking in the profile of this tool called a computer, is >> the means of repair that is usually done in the world without computers in >> the middle. Likely because there is not a stable context or environment in >> which to do that. Particularly where people are in different timezones. >> > >> > This feature is absent from the printing press and distribution of >> books, because the feedback loop was entirely different with many >> gatekeepers. Computers attached to a network has little friction (compared >> to 1400 transmissions of words in books). >> > >> > Even we see something similar in the cameras as apparatus (apparati?) A >> large format camera takes an entirely different photograph from a 35mm >> camera from a 2-? format camera. This has to do with lenses, f-stops, film >> speed, whether a tripod is required or not. One really understands this >> concept after using different cameras. The comparison can be made for those >> of us who used Instamatics and now use an iPhone to take pictures, so I >> don't mean to privilege this to only committed photogs. >> > >> > Since computers and the manner that they transmit affect and feeling >> can have such an impact on so many people, I'm not sure how that doesn't >> make a difference. >> > >> > Certainly, television has made a difference to us. It fired all the >> babysitters for example. Now the televisions are being fired in favor of >> video games, youTube, and other various preoccupations on the digital wave. >> > >> > Some researchers are saying that kids brains are being rewired from >> this ubiquitous use of computers. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but >> it does seem that kids take to playing with them in an easier fashion than >> their parents. >> > >> > I don't think we can therefore isolate words from our experience, but >> as you point out David, they that must be contextualized in the wider >> world. I am reading that as what you are saying. >> > >> > Of course I may have misunderstood your affect, feelings, and >> motivations, or you may also misunderstand mine. >> > >> > And so we cast ourselves into the void and hope for the best, giving >> the other the benefit of the doubt. >> > >> > We hope. >> > >> > Kind regards, >> > >> > Annalisa >> > >> > >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ewall@umich.edu Thu Mar 12 12:02:20 2015 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 14:02:20 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> <1426118328942.70970@unm.edu> <8DDDDDE1-78E8-4726-A7C3-7F41B62A4CC0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2AA91142-5988-446C-80D5-5F5DBB25CEAB@umich.edu> Mike Serendipity? I've been thinking about the last line of your message for a number of years. Do you mean the effectiveness of the play as in the 'effectiveness' of the 'content' of something called a 'play?'' Could one say plays aren't fully plays if they don't have a pre, present, and post? Perhaps, the 'content' could be thought as part of the pre, the playing as part of the present, and the effectiveness as part of the post. Ed On Mar 12, 2015, at 1:40 PM, mike cole wrote: > Hey Henry--- For another purposes I opened Herbert Simon's book on the > sciences of the artificial and guess what I encounter on page 2 of the > preface (he says re read the book he is quoting here 40 years earlier at > the beginning of his research, so this is from a book called Administrative > Behavior that is some 80 years old: > > *administration* *is* *not* *unlike* *play*-*acting*. The task of the good > actor is to know and play his role, although different roles may differ > greatly in content. The effec- tiveness of the performance will depend on > the effectiveness of the play and the effectiveness with which it is > played. *...* > > serendipity? > mike > > On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:24 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> Your query, Henry, returns us to the discussion of LSV's article on the >> environment from a couple of months ago and the concept of perezhivanie, >> the translation of which several experts are certain they know the proper >> interpretation. Unfortunately, they are not in agreement. (This is true of >> both Russian and English-writing scholars within and between >> language/culture communities) >> >> Vasiliuk's book, "The psychology of experiencing" is floating around in >> pdf form somewhere. His focus there is on perezhivanie. More recently he >> has been focused on this concept with respect to psychotherapy. I believe >> this work is being translated now, and is about to appear in English, but >> am not sure. >> >> mike >> >> On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:05 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> >>> Hi Too, >>> Annalisa has spilled some virtual ink pondering affect and feeling. I >>> have struggled with the same issue. Andy, through Academia, has just made >>> available his article. ?The Germ Cell of Vygotsky?s Science?, from which >>> the following quote: >>> >>> "In each of the areas of psychological research into which Vygotsky went, >>> his aim was to establish a unit of analysis. He was not always successful, >>> and for example, his study of the emotions failed to arrive at a unit of >>> analysis before his death in 1934.? >>> >>> How and why did Vygotsky fail? This question may be off-thread, or not. >>> >>> Henry >>> >>> P.S. Annalisa, you use the term ?repair?. Could you explain how that fits >>> with affect and feeling? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Mar 11, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> These examples of tape recorders in language labs verses automated >>> recordings on buses seem to say a lot about contexts to me. Specifically >>> environments (which include subject-objects, object-subjects, subjects, and >>> objects). >>>> >>>> But ALSO not just environments and others: Affects and feelings and >>> motivations, *too*. >>>> >>>> That all of these are exceptionally important to take into >>> consideration when reading, listening, judging, and comparing, and then >>> writing. Sometimes we skip steps, not intentionally, but also, not all the >>> time. >>>> >>>> (I am learning about affects lately, thanks to a book Paul Mocombe >>> recommended, BTW) >>>> >>>> Apparently an affect is like a wordless feeling; Something coming from >>> the environment (which can be from another person or people, though I >>> wonder if it's possible just from the environment without people, as well). >>> Affect seems to be something unconscious. Feeling, however is more >>> concrete, and therefore more conscious, and thus seated within our embodied >>> experience in a different way than affect is embodied, whereby for a >>> feeling, the affect has been transformed into a thought, but not a thought >>> in the sense of a cerebral-thought, but a feeling-thought. Unfortunately my >>> vocabulary fails me here. >>>> >>>> Hence: Affect + Transformation into thought = Feeling >>>> >>>> Trouble arises when affect isn't transformed. Perhaps tool use (such as >>> when speaking or writing or reading, or baking lasagna, running, raking >>> leaves, playing the saxophone) assists in this transformation. >>>> >>>> I can't help but include in this concept in this thread about the >>> impact of computers. That much of the profile of computer usage, just like >>> other tools, is how they transmit emotion to us, and how do we know (with >>> certainty) what is authentic emotion in something like an email or a list >>> serve post? >>>> >>>> Posts on listservs are not just words. >>>> >>>> Something does convey even if the sense is a shattered or muffled >>> sense. What is lacking in the profile of this tool called a computer, is >>> the means of repair that is usually done in the world without computers in >>> the middle. Likely because there is not a stable context or environment in >>> which to do that. Particularly where people are in different timezones. >>>> >>>> This feature is absent from the printing press and distribution of >>> books, because the feedback loop was entirely different with many >>> gatekeepers. Computers attached to a network has little friction (compared >>> to 1400 transmissions of words in books). >>>> >>>> Even we see something similar in the cameras as apparatus (apparati?) A >>> large format camera takes an entirely different photograph from a 35mm >>> camera from a 2-? format camera. This has to do with lenses, f-stops, film >>> speed, whether a tripod is required or not. One really understands this >>> concept after using different cameras. The comparison can be made for those >>> of us who used Instamatics and now use an iPhone to take pictures, so I >>> don't mean to privilege this to only committed photogs. >>>> >>>> Since computers and the manner that they transmit affect and feeling >>> can have such an impact on so many people, I'm not sure how that doesn't >>> make a difference. >>>> >>>> Certainly, television has made a difference to us. It fired all the >>> babysitters for example. Now the televisions are being fired in favor of >>> video games, youTube, and other various preoccupations on the digital wave. >>>> >>>> Some researchers are saying that kids brains are being rewired from >>> this ubiquitous use of computers. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but >>> it does seem that kids take to playing with them in an easier fashion than >>> their parents. >>>> >>>> I don't think we can therefore isolate words from our experience, but >>> as you point out David, they that must be contextualized in the wider >>> world. I am reading that as what you are saying. >>>> >>>> Of course I may have misunderstood your affect, feelings, and >>> motivations, or you may also misunderstand mine. >>>> >>>> And so we cast ourselves into the void and hope for the best, giving >>> the other the benefit of the doubt. >>>> >>>> We hope. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Mar 12 13:45:45 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 05:45:45 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> Message-ID: I confess to being quite uncomfortable with Mike's substitution of "vulgar" for my "crude". Structurally, a theory that is "crude" is simple (e.g. a theory that does not distinguish between signs and tools but lumps them both under the single category of "artifact") but a theory that is "vulgar" can be very complex indeed (e.g. pornography as a model of sexuality, or sit-coms as a model of family relations). Functionally, a theory that is crude works extremely well for a limited number of applications (e.g. behaviorism, which is actually a pretty good description of the lower psychological functions) but a theory which is vulgar is in some ways the opposite: widespread because it works badly for a very large number of applications (e.g. bureaucracy). Above all, though, they are different genetically: a crude theory is one that has just begun and is in the process of being refined, while a vulgar theory is one that is clearly in decline. I'm even more uncomfortable with the idea that I am supposed to name the names of "vulgar" AT people and suggest exemplars of subtle and refined practitioners. Actually, when I gave references from MCA, I wasn't passing judgment on the authors or even on their articles; the page references I refer to are neither authors nor articles but only diagrammes which either: a) do not distinguish between tools (subject-to-object) and signs (subject-to-subject) b) DO distinguish between an "object" and an "outcome", and/or c) treat the use of signs as the acting of a subject upon an object rather than the action of one human consciousness upon another. I admit that I sort of deserved this, because my initial post used rhetorical tropes like "your average psychotic serial killer" and drew heavily on personal experience instead of sticking to a fairly generic attack on the usual culprits (e.g. bureaucracy and positivism). In any case, turn about is fair play--there was a fair a mount of my yanking everybody's chain (or rather their extension cord) in the subject line of this thread. But there is a real problem: how do we make our contributions to xmca colorful and readable without annoying others? How to start a lively discussion without starting flame wars? I think, actually, Helena's idea of not apostrophizing anybody is, at bottom, a good one, but the fact that I just broke it without really meaning to shows that it is not very practical. Mike also invites me to name works that I consider exemplary: now here is a trap I will gladly fall into. I am not sure this is the best one, Mike, but it is certainly the book I turn to most often and the one that I know best (for example, I was teaching it last night in my wildly unpopular course on story telling). More, it is the book I find it hardest to live up to: https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great-globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 12 March 2015 at 10:15, mike cole wrote: > Thanks for pushing this inquiry of mine another few paces up the hill, > David. I believe I have all those issues of MCA to hand. I'll scout them > out and consider them in light of the distinction between vulgar and > less-vulgar forms of activity theory. But see if I have this straight. > > A vulgar AT person reduces mental life to a subject-object dualism in which > the fact of an always present subject-subject (essential!) relationship is > obliterated in one way or another. > I expect that each of your examples will show problem in its own way, but > the directionality of the reduction is clear. > > I believe that this is a common interpretation of Leontiev's form of AT. > The Rubenshteinians' slogan was "All to the subject" in protest. > > I will start looking for the examples you picked out for us. Might you, as > a further step, provide examples from published studies (not necessarily in > MCA which denies any claim to AT-guru status!) that support > non-reductionist versions of AT? Who should we be emulating? > > I'll stick with this topic, although the general issues of history of > mediational means and their activity doppelgangers that others are > dangling before us is very tempting. As I wrote previously, I think a > common approach to making both subject-object/and subject-subject relations > BOTH a part of our analyses would be a positive step. Then we might be able > to complexify. > > hedgehog for now > mike > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 2:52 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > Human language learning at the University of Chicago in the mid-seventies > > (which I did as an undergraduate in the Chinese department) was a lot > like > > rodent maze-learning. You checked into the language laboratory for two > > hours of drilling almost every day. It went something like this: > > > > TAPE RECORDER: "Ni you shu mei you?--piao" (Do you have a book--a ticket) > > STUDENT: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > > TAPE RECORDER: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > > STUDENT: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > > > > As you can see, there's a stimulus, a response, a reinforcement, and an a > > reinforcement of the reinforcement, just to be extra sure. That was from > > the educational psychology point of view then current, which Mike may > well > > recognize from HIS undergraduate days. > > > > >From the early activity theory point of view, I take it what I was doing > > was something like this: I was the subject, the language laboratory was a > > tool/sign artefact, the correct model was the object upon which I was > > operating and the correct response was the outcome. The rules were that I > > was to do this five days a week, and there was a sign-in sheet delivered > to > > a teaching assistant on a weekly basis. The community, therefore, did not > > include a professor, but it did include a fellow student paid minimum > wage > > to supervise the language laboratory (I speak feelingly, I did it before > I > > got a better paying job as a janitor), and I could glimpse of the tops of > > the heads of my classmates in other cubicles when I stood up to leave > after > > two hours. Such was the division of labor. > > > > You can see this fairly crude version of AT in a lot of articles in MCA. > In > > Vol. 15, No. 3, on p. 182, Wolff-Michael Roth uses it to lay out the A.N. > > Leontiev's prototypical primitive communism situation (the hunters and > > beaters). Iin vol. 15, No 4. on p. 327, Helena Worthen uses it to talk > > about teaching people to negotiate working conditions. In Vol. 16, No. 2, > > on p. 136, Norman Friesen uses something even more crude--the so-called > > speech circuit, from Saussure's 1911 Course in General Linguistics > > (complete with droopy lines connecting a speaker's mouth to a hearer's > > ear!) I take it that the model of language in ALL of these is basically > > that of my old language laboratory: the objects of language are > essentially > > objects without minds, aspects of the environment to be acted upon in > order > > to achieve particular outcomes, no different from a stone to be made > into a > > tool, or a mastodon to be transformed into dinner. > > > > The problem is that this view of language is essentially that of your > > average psychotic serial killer. It doesn't capture the simple fact that > > the object of language is not an object at all, but rather a fellow > > subject--often--yea, if we believe Chomsky, most often, that is, in the > > vast majority of instances of language use we encounter in a single > > day--the object is actually myself. I think there are some uses of AT > (even > > the Engestrom triangle) which very clearly DO take this into account. I > > have seen some versions of the Engestrom triangle where it is used to > link > > two subjects and there is no object at all. In Vol. 13, No. 4, Katherine > > Brown and Jule Gomez de Garcia point out that even in the unnatural > > conditions of language use we find in a literacy classroom, the object of > > language use is always SHARED with other human subjects. > > > > In 1984, eight years after I'd left the University of Chicago, I found > > myself on a bus in Beijing. The bus was full as only Beijing buses could > be > > in those days, and a scratchy din emanated from a tiny loudspeaker near > > where I was standing. I watched as people one by one got on the bus, > pushed > > their way to the conductor, and bought a ticket, and only then did I > > realize that the loudspeaker was a human voice saying: > > > > "Mei piao mai piao, a! Mei piao mai piao, a!" > > > > In other words, "Do you have a ticket?" > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > > > On 12 March 2015 at 01:11, mike cole wrote: > > > > > It is great to see this discussion broaden out temporally to take us > back > > > to the oldest of communications media we can manage. The question > raised > > in > > > this manner is more or less what we set out to explore when we created > a > > > Department of Communication at UCSD with checkered success. > > > > > > Very interesting to see the lists and previously unspeaking voices > > appear, > > > almost as if a minicurriculum in "The history of human mediational > means > > > and their associated lifeworlds" were lurking out there in xmca-land. > > > > > > To help me understand just a corner of this vaste terrain, might you, > > > David, expand on these comments: > > > > > > Nevertheless, the tape recorder has had an impact on pedagogy that is > > > almost negligible. In EFL, where I now work, it served to make a huge > > > amount of money for the distributors of language laboratories. But > > language > > > laboratories worked by fencing learners into cubicles, and *replacing > > the* > > > > > > *subject-subject relation we find in natural language use with > > > asubject-object relation which we find in crude versions of Activity > > > Theory.* > > > > > > Given our ongoing discussions about the varieties of and attitudes > toward > > > different versions of "THE" Activity Theory, it would help me to > > understand > > > clear examples of a crude version > > > of AT and how it is applied alongside a subtle/better version of AT and > > how > > > it is applied in a different way. > > > > > > I am conjecturing that if we could get some broad, "germ cell" > > > understanding of the issue in bold above, it might serve as an analytic > > > lens through which to view of the history of mediation and activity in > > > human life. > > > mike > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Seven things I learned from What People Said About Books in 1498, by > > John > > > > H. Lienhard (http://www.uh.edu/engines/indiana.htm): > > > > > > > > 1. Sharing is a cultural invention, not a technological one. Sharing > > must > > > > be reinvented in each community and in each generation. > > > > > > > > 2. Caxton was not a cultural snob. > > > > > > > > 3. Margaret was one cool hipster. > > > > > > > > 4. Mennochio and I have a few things in common, but I hope to live to > > be > > > > an old woman and not charcoal on a stick. > > > > > > > > 5. I regret Lienhard's the analysis of Medieval scholars using > > > > Myers-Briggs. I wish that rubric would just die. > > > > > > > > 6. "We cannot have a clue as to what any technological future will be > > > > until we learn it from a new generation of users." <-- What he > said!!! > > > > > > > > 7. We can only know what we know when we have an idea what we don't > > know. > > > > Which is why I love what he said about seeking our ignorance. And: > "To > > > > impose is not to discover." Yeah. That. > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Mar 12 14:16:53 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 14:16:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> Message-ID: I apologize for penning/pinning the word, vulgar on you, David. My fault entirely. I was thinking of the term vulgar marxism and thinking about the relation of means/relations of production to the s-o versus s-s contrast in your note which I think is central. As I wrote in an earlier note in this thread, I think that the question you are raising between crude and lets call them more refined elaborations of CHAT ideas are central to the much larger question of the historical relations between human activities and their means. So, thanks for catching me up on using language that can be taken as inflamatory. Maybe crude can be so taken, but it works for me. As you noted in an earlier message, the forms of instruction (obuchenie) implemented in typical language labs when I was a grad student treat the form of learning involved as a-social....... its all between the individual (subject) and the pre-defined set of learning goals embodied (in the case of a language lab) in presumed mastery of the materials...... as measured by later, ordinarily written exams. I would never have thought about these in relation to AT, and Leontiev (and his son!) railed against such practices, because they were typical "S-R theorist" fantasies. But in so far as they appear in pedagogical arrangements purporting to use a chat analysis, they count as very crude to me. I still need to check the examples, but I assume they all fit. It clearly will be difficult to get people to read your book as entry point to the discussion, David. I believe some of your own work in second language instruction would provide a lot quicker access. My point in asking was to try to externalize forms of theory-methodology- practice that avoid the pitfalls of crude/over-simplified thinking that is merely recapitulating old errors. If the topic is of interest to others we can come back to it. Or, if not, things will amble along as they do. mike On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 1:45 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > I confess to being quite uncomfortable with Mike's substitution of "vulgar" > for my "crude". Structurally, a theory that is "crude" is simple (e.g. a > theory that does not distinguish between signs and tools but lumps them > both under the single category of "artifact") but a theory that is "vulgar" > can be very complex indeed (e.g. pornography as a model of sexuality, or > sit-coms as a model of family relations). Functionally, a theory that is > crude works extremely well for a limited number of applications (e.g. > behaviorism, which is actually a pretty good description of the lower > psychological functions) but a theory which is vulgar is in some ways the > opposite: widespread because it works badly for a very large number of > applications (e.g. bureaucracy). Above all, though, they are different > genetically: a crude theory is one that has just begun and is in the > process of being refined, while a vulgar theory is one that is clearly in > decline. > > I'm even more uncomfortable with the idea that I am supposed to name the > names of "vulgar" AT people and suggest exemplars of subtle and refined > practitioners. Actually, when I gave references from MCA, I wasn't passing > judgment on the authors or even on their articles; the page references I > refer to are neither authors nor articles but only diagrammes which either: > > a) do not distinguish between tools (subject-to-object) and signs > (subject-to-subject) > b) DO distinguish between an "object" and an "outcome", and/or > c) treat the use of signs as the acting of a subject upon an object rather > than the action of one human consciousness upon another. > > I admit that I sort of deserved this, because my initial post used > rhetorical tropes like "your average psychotic serial killer" and drew > heavily on personal experience instead of sticking to a fairly generic > attack on the usual culprits (e.g. bureaucracy and positivism). In any > case, turn about is fair play--there was a fair a mount of my yanking > everybody's chain (or rather their extension cord) in the subject line of > this thread. But there is a real problem: how do we make our contributions > to xmca colorful and readable without annoying others? How to start a > lively discussion without starting flame wars? I think, actually, Helena's > idea of not apostrophizing anybody is, at bottom, a good one, but the fact > that I just broke it without really meaning to shows that it is not very > practical. > > Mike also invites me to name works that I consider exemplary: now here is a > trap I will gladly fall into. I am not sure this is the best one, Mike, but > it is certainly the book I turn to most often and the one that I know best > (for example, I was teaching it last night in my wildly unpopular course on > story telling). More, it is the book I find it hardest to live up to: > > > https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great-globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > On 12 March 2015 at 10:15, mike cole wrote: > > > Thanks for pushing this inquiry of mine another few paces up the hill, > > David. I believe I have all those issues of MCA to hand. I'll scout them > > out and consider them in light of the distinction between vulgar and > > less-vulgar forms of activity theory. But see if I have this straight. > > > > A vulgar AT person reduces mental life to a subject-object dualism in > which > > the fact of an always present subject-subject (essential!) relationship > is > > obliterated in one way or another. > > I expect that each of your examples will show problem in its own way, but > > the directionality of the reduction is clear. > > > > I believe that this is a common interpretation of Leontiev's form of AT. > > The Rubenshteinians' slogan was "All to the subject" in protest. > > > > I will start looking for the examples you picked out for us. Might you, > as > > a further step, provide examples from published studies (not necessarily > in > > MCA which denies any claim to AT-guru status!) that support > > non-reductionist versions of AT? Who should we be emulating? > > > > I'll stick with this topic, although the general issues of history of > > mediational means and their activity doppelgangers that others are > > dangling before us is very tempting. As I wrote previously, I think a > > common approach to making both subject-object/and subject-subject > relations > > BOTH a part of our analyses would be a positive step. Then we might be > able > > to complexify. > > > > hedgehog for now > > mike > > > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 2:52 PM, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > > > > Human language learning at the University of Chicago in the > mid-seventies > > > (which I did as an undergraduate in the Chinese department) was a lot > > like > > > rodent maze-learning. You checked into the language laboratory for two > > > hours of drilling almost every day. It went something like this: > > > > > > TAPE RECORDER: "Ni you shu mei you?--piao" (Do you have a book--a > ticket) > > > STUDENT: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > > > TAPE RECORDER: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > > > STUDENT: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > > > > > > As you can see, there's a stimulus, a response, a reinforcement, and > an a > > > reinforcement of the reinforcement, just to be extra sure. That was > from > > > the educational psychology point of view then current, which Mike may > > well > > > recognize from HIS undergraduate days. > > > > > > >From the early activity theory point of view, I take it what I was > doing > > > was something like this: I was the subject, the language laboratory > was a > > > tool/sign artefact, the correct model was the object upon which I was > > > operating and the correct response was the outcome. The rules were > that I > > > was to do this five days a week, and there was a sign-in sheet > delivered > > to > > > a teaching assistant on a weekly basis. The community, therefore, did > not > > > include a professor, but it did include a fellow student paid minimum > > wage > > > to supervise the language laboratory (I speak feelingly, I did it > before > > I > > > got a better paying job as a janitor), and I could glimpse of the tops > of > > > the heads of my classmates in other cubicles when I stood up to leave > > after > > > two hours. Such was the division of labor. > > > > > > You can see this fairly crude version of AT in a lot of articles in > MCA. > > In > > > Vol. 15, No. 3, on p. 182, Wolff-Michael Roth uses it to lay out the > A.N. > > > Leontiev's prototypical primitive communism situation (the hunters and > > > beaters). Iin vol. 15, No 4. on p. 327, Helena Worthen uses it to talk > > > about teaching people to negotiate working conditions. In Vol. 16, No. > 2, > > > on p. 136, Norman Friesen uses something even more crude--the so-called > > > speech circuit, from Saussure's 1911 Course in General Linguistics > > > (complete with droopy lines connecting a speaker's mouth to a hearer's > > > ear!) I take it that the model of language in ALL of these is basically > > > that of my old language laboratory: the objects of language are > > essentially > > > objects without minds, aspects of the environment to be acted upon in > > order > > > to achieve particular outcomes, no different from a stone to be made > > into a > > > tool, or a mastodon to be transformed into dinner. > > > > > > The problem is that this view of language is essentially that of your > > > average psychotic serial killer. It doesn't capture the simple fact > that > > > the object of language is not an object at all, but rather a fellow > > > subject--often--yea, if we believe Chomsky, most often, that is, in the > > > vast majority of instances of language use we encounter in a single > > > day--the object is actually myself. I think there are some uses of AT > > (even > > > the Engestrom triangle) which very clearly DO take this into account. I > > > have seen some versions of the Engestrom triangle where it is used to > > link > > > two subjects and there is no object at all. In Vol. 13, No. 4, > Katherine > > > Brown and Jule Gomez de Garcia point out that even in the unnatural > > > conditions of language use we find in a literacy classroom, the object > of > > > language use is always SHARED with other human subjects. > > > > > > In 1984, eight years after I'd left the University of Chicago, I found > > > myself on a bus in Beijing. The bus was full as only Beijing buses > could > > be > > > in those days, and a scratchy din emanated from a tiny loudspeaker near > > > where I was standing. I watched as people one by one got on the bus, > > pushed > > > their way to the conductor, and bought a ticket, and only then did I > > > realize that the loudspeaker was a human voice saying: > > > > > > "Mei piao mai piao, a! Mei piao mai piao, a!" > > > > > > In other words, "Do you have a ticket?" > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12 March 2015 at 01:11, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > It is great to see this discussion broaden out temporally to take us > > back > > > > to the oldest of communications media we can manage. The question > > raised > > > in > > > > this manner is more or less what we set out to explore when we > created > > a > > > > Department of Communication at UCSD with checkered success. > > > > > > > > Very interesting to see the lists and previously unspeaking voices > > > appear, > > > > almost as if a minicurriculum in "The history of human mediational > > means > > > > and their associated lifeworlds" were lurking out there in xmca-land. > > > > > > > > To help me understand just a corner of this vaste terrain, might you, > > > > David, expand on these comments: > > > > > > > > Nevertheless, the tape recorder has had an impact on pedagogy that is > > > > almost negligible. In EFL, where I now work, it served to make a huge > > > > amount of money for the distributors of language laboratories. But > > > language > > > > laboratories worked by fencing learners into cubicles, and *replacing > > > the* > > > > > > > > *subject-subject relation we find in natural language use with > > > > asubject-object relation which we find in crude versions of Activity > > > > Theory.* > > > > > > > > Given our ongoing discussions about the varieties of and attitudes > > toward > > > > different versions of "THE" Activity Theory, it would help me to > > > understand > > > > clear examples of a crude version > > > > of AT and how it is applied alongside a subtle/better version of AT > and > > > how > > > > it is applied in a different way. > > > > > > > > I am conjecturing that if we could get some broad, "germ cell" > > > > understanding of the issue in bold above, it might serve as an > analytic > > > > lens through which to view of the history of mediation and activity > in > > > > human life. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Seven things I learned from What People Said About Books in 1498, > by > > > John > > > > > H. Lienhard (http://www.uh.edu/engines/indiana.htm): > > > > > > > > > > 1. Sharing is a cultural invention, not a technological one. > Sharing > > > must > > > > > be reinvented in each community and in each generation. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Caxton was not a cultural snob. > > > > > > > > > > 3. Margaret was one cool hipster. > > > > > > > > > > 4. Mennochio and I have a few things in common, but I hope to live > to > > > be > > > > > an old woman and not charcoal on a stick. > > > > > > > > > > 5. I regret Lienhard's the analysis of Medieval scholars using > > > > > Myers-Briggs. I wish that rubric would just die. > > > > > > > > > > 6. "We cannot have a clue as to what any technological future will > be > > > > > until we learn it from a new generation of users." <-- What he > > said!!! > > > > > > > > > > 7. We can only know what we know when we have an idea what we don't > > > know. > > > > > Which is why I love what he said about seeking our ignorance. And: > > "To > > > > > impose is not to discover." Yeah. That. > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > object > > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Mar 12 14:40:49 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 21:40:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?_Re=3A__Re=3A_Why_Computers_Make_So_Little_Difference?= In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> , Message-ID: <55020e82.842c460a.0c2f.07cd@mx.google.com> I decided to extract this comment from Mike to David from the multiple possibleopenings offered on this topic. the vulgar [replace with crude or simple] AT person reduces mental life to a subject-object dualism in which the fact of an always present subject-subject (essential!) relationship is obliterated in one way or another. I expect that each of your examples will show problem in its own way, but the directionality of the reduction is clear. I believe that this is a common interpretation of Leontiev's form of AT. The Rubenshteinians' slogan was "All to the subject" in protest. Mike, you then mentioned trying to bring together reciprocal interactions [Simmel?s approach] when you concluded with the statement: I think a common approach to making both subject-object/and subject-subject relations BOTH a part of our analyses would be a positive step. Then we might be able to complexify. The topic of the place of the ?symbolic? [as in symbolic interaction] and its relation to ?? [is the symbolic in relation to the actual or the material or the real??]. I found it significant that David was referring us not to texts but to ?diagrams? of the ?subject-object? relationships/interactions. The power of ?diagrams? [as drawing/figures] to indicate the symbolic/realistic interactions. To complexify is to create a ?site? [a third space] to ALSO bring in the Rubenshteinian slogan [ALL to the subject] as well as Zinchenko's notion of ?oscillation?. Gadamer?s approach also complexified the concept of hermeneutics by engaging with "art? and ?dialogue? that questioned the ?objective status of objects of interpretation and thus renders questionable the objectivity of the interpretation itself? [cited by Richard Palmer] There was great push back to Gadamer?s approach as it did not offer a preconceived ?method? or methodology for engaging with the humane studies. It was exploring the basis of all method. Larry Sent from Windows Mail From: mike cole Sent: ?Wednesday?, ?March? ?11?, ?2015 ?6?:?15? ?PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Thanks for pushing this inquiry of mine another few paces up the hill, David. I believe I have all those issues of MCA to hand. I'll scout them out and consider them in light of the distinction between vulgar and less-vulgar forms of activity theory. But see if I have this straight. A vulgar AT person reduces mental life to a subject-object dualism in which the fact of an always present subject-subject (essential!) relationship is obliterated in one way or another. I expect that each of your examples will show problem in its own way, but the directionality of the reduction is clear. I believe that this is a common interpretation of Leontiev's form of AT. The Rubenshteinians' slogan was "All to the subject" in protest. I will start looking for the examples you picked out for us. Might you, as a further step, provide examples from published studies (not necessarily in MCA which denies any claim to AT-guru status!) that support non-reductionist versions of AT? Who should we be emulating? I'll stick with this topic, although the general issues of history of mediational means and their activity doppelgangers that others are dangling before us is very tempting. As I wrote previously, I think a common approach to making both subject-object/and subject-subject relations BOTH a part of our analyses would be a positive step. Then we might be able to complexify. hedgehog for now mike On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 2:52 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Human language learning at the University of Chicago in the mid-seventies > (which I did as an undergraduate in the Chinese department) was a lot like > rodent maze-learning. You checked into the language laboratory for two > hours of drilling almost every day. It went something like this: > > TAPE RECORDER: "Ni you shu mei you?--piao" (Do you have a book--a ticket) > STUDENT: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > TAPE RECORDER: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > STUDENT: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > > As you can see, there's a stimulus, a response, a reinforcement, and an a > reinforcement of the reinforcement, just to be extra sure. That was from > the educational psychology point of view then current, which Mike may well > recognize from HIS undergraduate days. > > >From the early activity theory point of view, I take it what I was doing > was something like this: I was the subject, the language laboratory was a > tool/sign artefact, the correct model was the object upon which I was > operating and the correct response was the outcome. The rules were that I > was to do this five days a week, and there was a sign-in sheet delivered to > a teaching assistant on a weekly basis. The community, therefore, did not > include a professor, but it did include a fellow student paid minimum wage > to supervise the language laboratory (I speak feelingly, I did it before I > got a better paying job as a janitor), and I could glimpse of the tops of > the heads of my classmates in other cubicles when I stood up to leave after > two hours. Such was the division of labor. > > You can see this fairly crude version of AT in a lot of articles in MCA. In > Vol. 15, No. 3, on p. 182, Wolff-Michael Roth uses it to lay out the A.N. > Leontiev's prototypical primitive communism situation (the hunters and > beaters). Iin vol. 15, No 4. on p. 327, Helena Worthen uses it to talk > about teaching people to negotiate working conditions. In Vol. 16, No. 2, > on p. 136, Norman Friesen uses something even more crude--the so-called > speech circuit, from Saussure's 1911 Course in General Linguistics > (complete with droopy lines connecting a speaker's mouth to a hearer's > ear!) I take it that the model of language in ALL of these is basically > that of my old language laboratory: the objects of language are essentially > objects without minds, aspects of the environment to be acted upon in order > to achieve particular outcomes, no different from a stone to be made into a > tool, or a mastodon to be transformed into dinner. > > The problem is that this view of language is essentially that of your > average psychotic serial killer. It doesn't capture the simple fact that > the object of language is not an object at all, but rather a fellow > subject--often--yea, if we believe Chomsky, most often, that is, in the > vast majority of instances of language use we encounter in a single > day--the object is actually myself. I think there are some uses of AT (even > the Engestrom triangle) which very clearly DO take this into account. I > have seen some versions of the Engestrom triangle where it is used to link > two subjects and there is no object at all. In Vol. 13, No. 4, Katherine > Brown and Jule Gomez de Garcia point out that even in the unnatural > conditions of language use we find in a literacy classroom, the object of > language use is always SHARED with other human subjects. > > In 1984, eight years after I'd left the University of Chicago, I found > myself on a bus in Beijing. The bus was full as only Beijing buses could be > in those days, and a scratchy din emanated from a tiny loudspeaker near > where I was standing. I watched as people one by one got on the bus, pushed > their way to the conductor, and bought a ticket, and only then did I > realize that the loudspeaker was a human voice saying: > > "Mei piao mai piao, a! Mei piao mai piao, a!" > > In other words, "Do you have a ticket?" > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > On 12 March 2015 at 01:11, mike cole wrote: > > > It is great to see this discussion broaden out temporally to take us back > > to the oldest of communications media we can manage. The question raised > in > > this manner is more or less what we set out to explore when we created a > > Department of Communication at UCSD with checkered success. > > > > Very interesting to see the lists and previously unspeaking voices > appear, > > almost as if a minicurriculum in "The history of human mediational means > > and their associated lifeworlds" were lurking out there in xmca-land. > > > > To help me understand just a corner of this vaste terrain, might you, > > David, expand on these comments: > > > > Nevertheless, the tape recorder has had an impact on pedagogy that is > > almost negligible. In EFL, where I now work, it served to make a huge > > amount of money for the distributors of language laboratories. But > language > > laboratories worked by fencing learners into cubicles, and *replacing > the* > > > > *subject-subject relation we find in natural language use with > > asubject-object relation which we find in crude versions of Activity > > Theory.* > > > > Given our ongoing discussions about the varieties of and attitudes toward > > different versions of "THE" Activity Theory, it would help me to > understand > > clear examples of a crude version > > of AT and how it is applied alongside a subtle/better version of AT and > how > > it is applied in a different way. > > > > I am conjecturing that if we could get some broad, "germ cell" > > understanding of the issue in bold above, it might serve as an analytic > > lens through which to view of the history of mediation and activity in > > human life. > > mike > > > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > > wrote: > > > > > Seven things I learned from What People Said About Books in 1498, by > John > > > H. Lienhard (http://www.uh.edu/engines/indiana.htm): > > > > > > 1. Sharing is a cultural invention, not a technological one. Sharing > must > > > be reinvented in each community and in each generation. > > > > > > 2. Caxton was not a cultural snob. > > > > > > 3. Margaret was one cool hipster. > > > > > > 4. Mennochio and I have a few things in common, but I hope to live to > be > > > an old woman and not charcoal on a stick. > > > > > > 5. I regret Lienhard's the analysis of Medieval scholars using > > > Myers-Briggs. I wish that rubric would just die. > > > > > > 6. "We cannot have a clue as to what any technological future will be > > > until we learn it from a new generation of users." <-- What he said!!! > > > > > > 7. We can only know what we know when we have an idea what we don't > know. > > > Which is why I love what he said about seeking our ignorance. And: "To > > > impose is not to discover." Yeah. That. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From billkerr@gmail.com Fri Mar 13 04:29:21 2015 From: billkerr@gmail.com (Bill Kerr) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 22:29:21 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: <55020e82.842c460a.0c2f.07cd@mx.google.com> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> <55020e82.842c460a.0c2f.07cd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: An attempt to briefly answer the original points made by David: > Chomsky was asked how computers would transform language ... (leading into comments comparing the transformation of language through printing, cf the computer) Since the issue is how will computers transform *language*, NOT how will they transform society (also important but not the question here), I think the answer has to involve computing programming languages. 1) The Alan Kay article which I referenced earlier http://edge.org/q2005/q05_8.html#kay refers to McLuhan in the context that new media enable new representations. What new representations? I'd suggest that emergent phenomena involving multiple variables - eg. economic crisis, climate change - have the potential (not yet attained) to be modelled through the computer in a way that our previous forms of language can't attain. 2) Theory of mind has been influenced by Artificial Intelligence theorists such as Alan Turing, Douglas Hofstadter, Marvin Minsky and others. Not resolved of course, still a controversial work in progress. I'm currently reading Hofstadter's *I am a Strange Loop*, which is a relatively easily accessible account of consciousness. Computers excel at modelling loopy phenomena and I agree with Hofstadter that they are important. 3) Also, James Gee produced an interesting argument that our concept of language ought to broaden to something which he called semiotic domains (*What Video Games have to teach us about learning and literacy*) On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 8:40 AM, wrote: > > I decided to extract this comment from Mike to David from the multiple > possibleopenings offered on this topic. > > > the vulgar [replace with crude or simple] AT person reduces mental life > to a subject-object dualism in which > the fact of an always present subject-subject (essential!) relationship is > obliterated in one way or another. > I expect that each of your examples will show problem in its own way, but > the directionality of the reduction is clear. > > I believe that this is a common interpretation of Leontiev's form of AT. > The Rubenshteinians' slogan was "All to the subject" in protest. > > > Mike, you then mentioned trying to bring together reciprocal interactions > [Simmel?s approach] when you concluded with the statement: > > > I think a common approach to making both subject-object/and > subject-subject relations > BOTH a part of our analyses would be a positive step. Then we might be able > to complexify. > > > The topic of the place of the ?symbolic? [as in symbolic interaction] and > its relation to ?? > > [is the symbolic in relation to the actual or the material or the real??]. > > I found it significant that David was referring us not to texts but to > ?diagrams? of the ?subject-object? relationships/interactions. The power > of ?diagrams? [as drawing/figures] to indicate the symbolic/realistic > interactions. > > > To complexify is to create a ?site? [a third space] to ALSO bring in the > Rubenshteinian slogan [ALL to the subject] as well as Zinchenko's notion of > ?oscillation?. > > > Gadamer?s approach also complexified the concept of hermeneutics by > engaging with "art? and ?dialogue? that questioned the ?objective status of > objects of interpretation and thus renders questionable the objectivity of > the interpretation itself? [cited by Richard Palmer] > > > There was great push back to Gadamer?s approach as it did not offer a > preconceived ?method? or methodology for engaging with the humane studies. > It was exploring the basis of all method. > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > > From: mike cole > Sent: ?Wednesday?, ?March? ?11?, ?2015 ?6?:?15? ?PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > Thanks for pushing this inquiry of mine another few paces up the hill, > David. I believe I have all those issues of MCA to hand. I'll scout them > out and consider them in light of the distinction between vulgar and > less-vulgar forms of activity theory. But see if I have this straight. > > A vulgar AT person reduces mental life to a subject-object dualism in which > the fact of an always present subject-subject (essential!) relationship is > obliterated in one way or another. > I expect that each of your examples will show problem in its own way, but > the directionality of the reduction is clear. > > I believe that this is a common interpretation of Leontiev's form of AT. > The Rubenshteinians' slogan was "All to the subject" in protest. > > I will start looking for the examples you picked out for us. Might you, as > a further step, provide examples from published studies (not necessarily in > MCA which denies any claim to AT-guru status!) that support > non-reductionist versions of AT? Who should we be emulating? > > I'll stick with this topic, although the general issues of history of > mediational means and their activity doppelgangers that others are > dangling before us is very tempting. As I wrote previously, I think a > common approach to making both subject-object/and subject-subject relations > BOTH a part of our analyses would be a positive step. Then we might be able > to complexify. > > hedgehog for now > mike > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 2:52 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > Human language learning at the University of Chicago in the mid-seventies > > (which I did as an undergraduate in the Chinese department) was a lot > like > > rodent maze-learning. You checked into the language laboratory for two > > hours of drilling almost every day. It went something like this: > > > > TAPE RECORDER: "Ni you shu mei you?--piao" (Do you have a book--a ticket) > > STUDENT: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > > TAPE RECORDER: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > > STUDENT: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > > > > As you can see, there's a stimulus, a response, a reinforcement, and an a > > reinforcement of the reinforcement, just to be extra sure. That was from > > the educational psychology point of view then current, which Mike may > well > > recognize from HIS undergraduate days. > > > > >From the early activity theory point of view, I take it what I was doing > > was something like this: I was the subject, the language laboratory was a > > tool/sign artefact, the correct model was the object upon which I was > > operating and the correct response was the outcome. The rules were that I > > was to do this five days a week, and there was a sign-in sheet delivered > to > > a teaching assistant on a weekly basis. The community, therefore, did not > > include a professor, but it did include a fellow student paid minimum > wage > > to supervise the language laboratory (I speak feelingly, I did it before > I > > got a better paying job as a janitor), and I could glimpse of the tops of > > the heads of my classmates in other cubicles when I stood up to leave > after > > two hours. Such was the division of labor. > > > > You can see this fairly crude version of AT in a lot of articles in MCA. > In > > Vol. 15, No. 3, on p. 182, Wolff-Michael Roth uses it to lay out the A.N. > > Leontiev's prototypical primitive communism situation (the hunters and > > beaters). Iin vol. 15, No 4. on p. 327, Helena Worthen uses it to talk > > about teaching people to negotiate working conditions. In Vol. 16, No. 2, > > on p. 136, Norman Friesen uses something even more crude--the so-called > > speech circuit, from Saussure's 1911 Course in General Linguistics > > (complete with droopy lines connecting a speaker's mouth to a hearer's > > ear!) I take it that the model of language in ALL of these is basically > > that of my old language laboratory: the objects of language are > essentially > > objects without minds, aspects of the environment to be acted upon in > order > > to achieve particular outcomes, no different from a stone to be made > into a > > tool, or a mastodon to be transformed into dinner. > > > > The problem is that this view of language is essentially that of your > > average psychotic serial killer. It doesn't capture the simple fact that > > the object of language is not an object at all, but rather a fellow > > subject--often--yea, if we believe Chomsky, most often, that is, in the > > vast majority of instances of language use we encounter in a single > > day--the object is actually myself. I think there are some uses of AT > (even > > the Engestrom triangle) which very clearly DO take this into account. I > > have seen some versions of the Engestrom triangle where it is used to > link > > two subjects and there is no object at all. In Vol. 13, No. 4, Katherine > > Brown and Jule Gomez de Garcia point out that even in the unnatural > > conditions of language use we find in a literacy classroom, the object of > > language use is always SHARED with other human subjects. > > > > In 1984, eight years after I'd left the University of Chicago, I found > > myself on a bus in Beijing. The bus was full as only Beijing buses could > be > > in those days, and a scratchy din emanated from a tiny loudspeaker near > > where I was standing. I watched as people one by one got on the bus, > pushed > > their way to the conductor, and bought a ticket, and only then did I > > realize that the loudspeaker was a human voice saying: > > > > "Mei piao mai piao, a! Mei piao mai piao, a!" > > > > In other words, "Do you have a ticket?" > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > > > On 12 March 2015 at 01:11, mike cole wrote: > > > > > It is great to see this discussion broaden out temporally to take us > back > > > to the oldest of communications media we can manage. The question > raised > > in > > > this manner is more or less what we set out to explore when we created > a > > > Department of Communication at UCSD with checkered success. > > > > > > Very interesting to see the lists and previously unspeaking voices > > appear, > > > almost as if a minicurriculum in "The history of human mediational > means > > > and their associated lifeworlds" were lurking out there in xmca-land. > > > > > > To help me understand just a corner of this vaste terrain, might you, > > > David, expand on these comments: > > > > > > Nevertheless, the tape recorder has had an impact on pedagogy that is > > > almost negligible. In EFL, where I now work, it served to make a huge > > > amount of money for the distributors of language laboratories. But > > language > > > laboratories worked by fencing learners into cubicles, and *replacing > > the* > > > > > > *subject-subject relation we find in natural language use with > > > asubject-object relation which we find in crude versions of Activity > > > Theory.* > > > > > > Given our ongoing discussions about the varieties of and attitudes > toward > > > different versions of "THE" Activity Theory, it would help me to > > understand > > > clear examples of a crude version > > > of AT and how it is applied alongside a subtle/better version of AT and > > how > > > it is applied in a different way. > > > > > > I am conjecturing that if we could get some broad, "germ cell" > > > understanding of the issue in bold above, it might serve as an analytic > > > lens through which to view of the history of mediation and activity in > > > human life. > > > mike > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Seven things I learned from What People Said About Books in 1498, by > > John > > > > H. Lienhard (http://www.uh.edu/engines/indiana.htm): > > > > > > > > 1. Sharing is a cultural invention, not a technological one. Sharing > > must > > > > be reinvented in each community and in each generation. > > > > > > > > 2. Caxton was not a cultural snob. > > > > > > > > 3. Margaret was one cool hipster. > > > > > > > > 4. Mennochio and I have a few things in common, but I hope to live to > > be > > > > an old woman and not charcoal on a stick. > > > > > > > > 5. I regret Lienhard's the analysis of Medieval scholars using > > > > Myers-Briggs. I wish that rubric would just die. > > > > > > > > 6. "We cannot have a clue as to what any technological future will be > > > > until we learn it from a new generation of users." <-- What he > said!!! > > > > > > > > 7. We can only know what we know when we have an idea what we don't > > know. > > > > Which is why I love what he said about seeking our ignorance. And: > "To > > > > impose is not to discover." Yeah. That. > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Mar 13 08:29:52 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 08:29:52 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Describing & Assessing Informal Learning Activities Message-ID: Jay Lemke and some colleagues (including myself) have published a broad review of efforts to provide adequate descriptions and evaluations of all sort of informal (meaning, here, roughly, out of school) learning environments. The executive summary is attached for anyone curious. The MIT link is here: http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/documenting-and-assessing-learning-informal-and-media-rich-environments Pass it along if you know someone who is bedeviled by the difficulties of doing research in this broad area. mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lemke-et-al-AssessingInformalLearning-Intro (1).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 191180 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150313/dfc537dd/attachment.pdf From lstone@skymail.csus.edu Fri Mar 13 08:43:27 2015 From: lstone@skymail.csus.edu (Stone, Lynda) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 15:43:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Describing & Assessing Informal Learning Activities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61FA1B2B-C962-46A0-ACC9-273EBA017C9D@csus.edu> Thanks Mike!!! On Mar 13, 2015, at 8:29 AM, mike cole > wrote: Jay Lemke and some colleagues (including myself) have published a broad review of efforts to provide adequate descriptions and evaluations of all sort of informal (meaning, here, roughly, out of school) learning environments. The executive summary is attached for anyone curious. The MIT link is here: http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/documenting-and-assessing-learning-informal-and-media-rich-environments Pass it along if you know someone who is bedeviled by the difficulties of doing research in this broad area. mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. Lynda Stone, Ph.D. Professor Child Development CSUS/UC-Links Program Director From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Mar 13 13:19:02 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 13:19:02 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Call for Special Section Submissions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looky here. Seem timely for some xmca members. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: SRCD Editorial Office Date: Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 10:06 AM Subject: Call for Special Section Submissions To: Michael Child Development Call for Special Section Submissions View this email in your browser *Child Development Call for Special Section Submissions* *Bringing Developmental Science into the World * *Child Development* announces a call for papers for the special section *Bringing Developmental Science into the World*, with guest editors Roberta Michnick Golinkoff (University of Delaware), Kathy Hirsh-Pasek (Temple University), Rachel Grob (University of Wisconsin) and Mark Schlesinger (Yale University). This special section invites manuscripts that have studied innovative programs, daily activities, or special events for children and families using the lens of developmental science. Researchers have often contributed to the creation and study of such activities, and our science can profit from learning more about how child development is supported, facilitated or undermined in the ?real? world. We invite manuscripts that widen the theoretical underpinnings and methodology Child Development generally considers, such as how to heighten parents? awareness of the power of informal learning or the role of physical activity in children?s learning. From a methodological standpoint, the section will seek to include community-based participatory research, community-engaged research, and participatory action research -- following precedents for publication of such studies in other fields such as behavioral economics, public sociology and clinical sciences. Authors who plan to submit a manuscript for the special section are asked to submit a letter of intent (LOI) by *June 1, 2015*, that includes: 1) tentative title; 2) contact information and corresponding author; 3) names and affiliations of anticipated authors; 4) brief description (500 words or less); and 5) a brief explanation (2 sentences) of the perceived fit between the submission and the themes described. Following a review of received letters (roughly 1 month), potential contributors will be contacted to submit full manuscripts by the final deadline of September 15, 2015. *Please visit * *http://srcd.org/publications/child-development/calls-special-issues-sections* * to review the full call before submitting a letter to ensure your submission complies with the section?s requirements and intention.* *Copyright ? 2015 SRCD, All rights reserved.* Members of SRCD receive news and updates as a benefit of membership. *Our mailing address is:* SRCD 2950 S. State Street, Suite 401 Ann Arbor, MI 48104 Add us to your address book unsubscribe from this list update subscription preferences -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Mar 13 14:17:19 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 06:17:19 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> <55020e82.842c460a.0c2f.07cd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I guess I think that the main way in which any technology (the printing press, the computer) influences language is not directly but mediated by society, and the main form of social mediation of language change that I am interested in is language teaching. In some ways, the way in which the printing press influenced English language teaching is quite easy to discern--in 1472, William Caxton presented a printing press to Edward IV, and within months the first bilingual, situational, phrase-based "books for travellers" were being printed in Westminster. Interestingly, the immediate effect was to REDUCE the number of teachers, but greatly expand the number of learners: learning English and French became a middle class pastime (and an extremely lucrative one, as England was a backwater, and France the most developed economy in Europe). But the more indirect influence of the printing press on language teaching was more long-lasting and profound. For there, in France, thanks to Gutenberg and his partner, Bibles were already being distributed, and in the long run these Bibles were going to have a far bigger impact on language teaching than Caxton's "books for travellers". Europe was in the business of setting up absolutist regimes, and national religions were essential to the project. In Spain and Italy, it was Catholicism, and in Prussia and Switzerland, it was Protestantism. In France, though, it was a mixture. Only about an eighth of the population was Protestant, but it included sectors whose support was essential to the monarchy (e.g. Navarre, Burgundy, the dukes of Bourbon and the valley of the Loire). I think we COULD argue that influence of the first printed Bibles on language teaching was ideological--it is certainly true that, Bible in hand, the idea that every man could be his or her own pope encouraged the merciless French rationalism that eventually, around 1660, created the Port Royal grammar books, which were the source of Chomsky's belief that the structure of language is the structure of the human mind itself. But the idea that the laws of thinking and speaking could be codified by a written text rather than by the notoriously fallible institutions of a priesthood was already there in the form of the Quran (when Caxton brought the printing press to England, the Moors still occupied large areas of Spain). If we want to seek for the ideological echoes of the printing press, we should probably look about a century earlier. In August 1572, almost exactly a hundred years after Caxton presented his "books for travellers" to Edward IV, the Catholic League (with the support of Spain, the Pope, and Charles IX and his mother Catherine de Medicis) tried to create a religiously homogeneous France through the time-honored tradition of genocide--the Saint Bartholomew's Day massacre. It eventually did produce a beautiful Meyerbeer opera, Les Huguenots, and the bloody, horrifying film based upon it, "La Reine Margot", but it didn't succeed in its objective of creating a religiously homogenous France. Overnight, refugees flooded into England--with a year or so, one in ten Englishman was a Frenchman, and we had the very first (but not, alas, the last) teaching of English by a refugee population to itself: English taught by non-natives to children who were destined to grow up natives. I've been reading the materials developed by this generation of English teachers, and it's quite striking how different they are from the Business English materials created by Caxton. First of all, they are dialogues. Secondly, they are all affective or emotional in color--mostly about the sufferings of people in France. And thirdly--most incredibly--you have dialogues of parents with their children in a foreign language. There is even pillow talk between a French husband and his French wife...in English, because they recognize that for better or worse this is the language they and their children will be speaking for the rest of their lives. True, back home, a once-Protestant king, Henri of Navarre, was on the throne and the creation of Europe's first multi-confessional nation-state was under way. But the various acts of toleration were seen, by the religious minority, as everywhere temporary (and sure enough Henri was assassinated, and his Edict de Nantes was eventually revoked by Louis XIVth). Now that the Huguenots had learned the trick of emigration for survival, they were not going to forget it (which is why there are large populations of the descendants of Huguenots all over the world, even as far as America and Australia). And now for something completely different. At this point let me abandon the spurious coherence that a strictly historical presentation lends to the argument; I too shall make an almost purely ideological leap. It seems to me that one of the legacies of this period was, actually, a much more "in situ" approach to language teaching, one that emphasizes the inner life of the student, and requires face to face encounters in the classroom. The reason I was so shamelessly touting my book was that in on pp. 3-5 of the link I sent is a short resume of the argument AGAINST computer mediated language teaching, that runs parallel to the argument I was trying to make about the language laboratory. It's not, actually, original with me, it's the argument of the Dogme school of language teachers, who drew THEIR inspiration from a kind of Brechtian revolt against Hollywood on the part of German and Scandinavian film makers in the nineties (Lars von Trier is probably the best known exponent of Dogme). http://esol.britishcouncil.org/sites/default/files/attachments/informational-page/AdogmaforEFL.pdf On Tuesday we were discussing role play, and the experiments that Vygotsky does in getting children to make stories using objects such as the inkwell and a book. I had included the following picture in the agenda, just to illustrate socio-dramatic role play: http://www.greatnewplaces.com/images/Kids/img7189_30122012121700.jpeg My students were struck by the fact that the child, surrounded by elaborate tools not of her own making, seems much more interested in the objects as objects than in their use as signs. I think in the same way, when children play World of Warcraft, they tend to be much more interested in the roles as roles than in the abstract rules of the game. It seems to me that there are some trends in language teaching that are retrogressive in this way: an activity which is intended to develop an orientation to the invisible is reduced to one that is almost entirely visiographic, and an activity that is intended to develop abstract thinking instead enmires it in a more primitive form. In the same way, computers, instead of becoming means for internalizing lexicogrammar, offer ways of keeping it at arms length. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 13 March 2015 at 20:29, Bill Kerr wrote: > An attempt to briefly answer the original points made by David: > > > Chomsky was asked how computers would transform language ... (leading > into comments comparing the transformation of language through printing, cf > the computer) > > Since the issue is how will computers transform *language*, NOT how will > they transform society (also important but not the question here), I think > the answer has to involve computing programming languages. > > 1) The Alan Kay article which I referenced earlier > http://edge.org/q2005/q05_8.html#kay refers to McLuhan in the context that > new media enable new representations. What new representations? I'd suggest > that emergent phenomena involving multiple variables - eg. economic crisis, > climate change - have the potential (not yet attained) to be modelled > through the computer in a way that our previous forms of language can't > attain. > > 2) Theory of mind has been influenced by Artificial Intelligence theorists > such as Alan Turing, Douglas Hofstadter, Marvin Minsky and others. Not > resolved of course, still a controversial work in progress. I'm currently > reading Hofstadter's *I am a Strange Loop*, which is a relatively easily > accessible account of consciousness. Computers excel at modelling loopy > phenomena and I agree with Hofstadter that they are important. > > 3) Also, James Gee produced an interesting argument that our concept of > language ought to broaden to something which he called semiotic domains > (*What > Video Games have to teach us about learning and literacy*) > > > > On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 8:40 AM, wrote: > > > > > I decided to extract this comment from Mike to David from the multiple > > possibleopenings offered on this topic. > > > > > > the vulgar [replace with crude or simple] AT person reduces mental life > > to a subject-object dualism in which > > the fact of an always present subject-subject (essential!) relationship > is > > obliterated in one way or another. > > I expect that each of your examples will show problem in its own way, but > > the directionality of the reduction is clear. > > > > I believe that this is a common interpretation of Leontiev's form of AT. > > The Rubenshteinians' slogan was "All to the subject" in protest. > > > > > > Mike, you then mentioned trying to bring together reciprocal interactions > > [Simmel?s approach] when you concluded with the statement: > > > > > > I think a common approach to making both subject-object/and > > subject-subject relations > > BOTH a part of our analyses would be a positive step. Then we might be > able > > to complexify. > > > > > > The topic of the place of the ?symbolic? [as in symbolic interaction] and > > its relation to ?? > > > > [is the symbolic in relation to the actual or the material or the > real??]. > > > > I found it significant that David was referring us not to texts but to > > ?diagrams? of the ?subject-object? relationships/interactions. The power > > of ?diagrams? [as drawing/figures] to indicate the symbolic/realistic > > interactions. > > > > > > To complexify is to create a ?site? [a third space] to ALSO bring in the > > Rubenshteinian slogan [ALL to the subject] as well as Zinchenko's notion > of > > ?oscillation?. > > > > > > Gadamer?s approach also complexified the concept of hermeneutics by > > engaging with "art? and ?dialogue? that questioned the ?objective status > of > > objects of interpretation and thus renders questionable the objectivity > of > > the interpretation itself? [cited by Richard Palmer] > > > > > > There was great push back to Gadamer?s approach as it did not offer a > > preconceived ?method? or methodology for engaging with the humane > studies. > > It was exploring the basis of all method. > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > > > > > > > > From: mike cole > > Sent: ?Wednesday?, ?March? ?11?, ?2015 ?6?:?15? ?PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for pushing this inquiry of mine another few paces up the hill, > > David. I believe I have all those issues of MCA to hand. I'll scout them > > out and consider them in light of the distinction between vulgar and > > less-vulgar forms of activity theory. But see if I have this straight. > > > > A vulgar AT person reduces mental life to a subject-object dualism in > which > > the fact of an always present subject-subject (essential!) relationship > is > > obliterated in one way or another. > > I expect that each of your examples will show problem in its own way, but > > the directionality of the reduction is clear. > > > > I believe that this is a common interpretation of Leontiev's form of AT. > > The Rubenshteinians' slogan was "All to the subject" in protest. > > > > I will start looking for the examples you picked out for us. Might you, > as > > a further step, provide examples from published studies (not necessarily > in > > MCA which denies any claim to AT-guru status!) that support > > non-reductionist versions of AT? Who should we be emulating? > > > > I'll stick with this topic, although the general issues of history of > > mediational means and their activity doppelgangers that others are > > dangling before us is very tempting. As I wrote previously, I think a > > common approach to making both subject-object/and subject-subject > relations > > BOTH a part of our analyses would be a positive step. Then we might be > able > > to complexify. > > > > hedgehog for now > > mike > > > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 2:52 PM, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > > > > Human language learning at the University of Chicago in the > mid-seventies > > > (which I did as an undergraduate in the Chinese department) was a lot > > like > > > rodent maze-learning. You checked into the language laboratory for two > > > hours of drilling almost every day. It went something like this: > > > > > > TAPE RECORDER: "Ni you shu mei you?--piao" (Do you have a book--a > ticket) > > > STUDENT: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > > > TAPE RECORDER: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > > > STUDENT: "Ni you piao mei you?" (Do you have a ticket?) > > > > > > As you can see, there's a stimulus, a response, a reinforcement, and > an a > > > reinforcement of the reinforcement, just to be extra sure. That was > from > > > the educational psychology point of view then current, which Mike may > > well > > > recognize from HIS undergraduate days. > > > > > > >From the early activity theory point of view, I take it what I was > doing > > > was something like this: I was the subject, the language laboratory > was a > > > tool/sign artefact, the correct model was the object upon which I was > > > operating and the correct response was the outcome. The rules were > that I > > > was to do this five days a week, and there was a sign-in sheet > delivered > > to > > > a teaching assistant on a weekly basis. The community, therefore, did > not > > > include a professor, but it did include a fellow student paid minimum > > wage > > > to supervise the language laboratory (I speak feelingly, I did it > before > > I > > > got a better paying job as a janitor), and I could glimpse of the tops > of > > > the heads of my classmates in other cubicles when I stood up to leave > > after > > > two hours. Such was the division of labor. > > > > > > You can see this fairly crude version of AT in a lot of articles in > MCA. > > In > > > Vol. 15, No. 3, on p. 182, Wolff-Michael Roth uses it to lay out the > A.N. > > > Leontiev's prototypical primitive communism situation (the hunters and > > > beaters). Iin vol. 15, No 4. on p. 327, Helena Worthen uses it to talk > > > about teaching people to negotiate working conditions. In Vol. 16, No. > 2, > > > on p. 136, Norman Friesen uses something even more crude--the so-called > > > speech circuit, from Saussure's 1911 Course in General Linguistics > > > (complete with droopy lines connecting a speaker's mouth to a hearer's > > > ear!) I take it that the model of language in ALL of these is basically > > > that of my old language laboratory: the objects of language are > > essentially > > > objects without minds, aspects of the environment to be acted upon in > > order > > > to achieve particular outcomes, no different from a stone to be made > > into a > > > tool, or a mastodon to be transformed into dinner. > > > > > > The problem is that this view of language is essentially that of your > > > average psychotic serial killer. It doesn't capture the simple fact > that > > > the object of language is not an object at all, but rather a fellow > > > subject--often--yea, if we believe Chomsky, most often, that is, in the > > > vast majority of instances of language use we encounter in a single > > > day--the object is actually myself. I think there are some uses of AT > > (even > > > the Engestrom triangle) which very clearly DO take this into account. I > > > have seen some versions of the Engestrom triangle where it is used to > > link > > > two subjects and there is no object at all. In Vol. 13, No. 4, > Katherine > > > Brown and Jule Gomez de Garcia point out that even in the unnatural > > > conditions of language use we find in a literacy classroom, the object > of > > > language use is always SHARED with other human subjects. > > > > > > In 1984, eight years after I'd left the University of Chicago, I found > > > myself on a bus in Beijing. The bus was full as only Beijing buses > could > > be > > > in those days, and a scratchy din emanated from a tiny loudspeaker near > > > where I was standing. I watched as people one by one got on the bus, > > pushed > > > their way to the conductor, and bought a ticket, and only then did I > > > realize that the loudspeaker was a human voice saying: > > > > > > "Mei piao mai piao, a! Mei piao mai piao, a!" > > > > > > In other words, "Do you have a ticket?" > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12 March 2015 at 01:11, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > It is great to see this discussion broaden out temporally to take us > > back > > > > to the oldest of communications media we can manage. The question > > raised > > > in > > > > this manner is more or less what we set out to explore when we > created > > a > > > > Department of Communication at UCSD with checkered success. > > > > > > > > Very interesting to see the lists and previously unspeaking voices > > > appear, > > > > almost as if a minicurriculum in "The history of human mediational > > means > > > > and their associated lifeworlds" were lurking out there in xmca-land. > > > > > > > > To help me understand just a corner of this vaste terrain, might you, > > > > David, expand on these comments: > > > > > > > > Nevertheless, the tape recorder has had an impact on pedagogy that is > > > > almost negligible. In EFL, where I now work, it served to make a huge > > > > amount of money for the distributors of language laboratories. But > > > language > > > > laboratories worked by fencing learners into cubicles, and *replacing > > > the* > > > > > > > > *subject-subject relation we find in natural language use with > > > > asubject-object relation which we find in crude versions of Activity > > > > Theory.* > > > > > > > > Given our ongoing discussions about the varieties of and attitudes > > toward > > > > different versions of "THE" Activity Theory, it would help me to > > > understand > > > > clear examples of a crude version > > > > of AT and how it is applied alongside a subtle/better version of AT > and > > > how > > > > it is applied in a different way. > > > > > > > > I am conjecturing that if we could get some broad, "germ cell" > > > > understanding of the issue in bold above, it might serve as an > analytic > > > > lens through which to view of the history of mediation and activity > in > > > > human life. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Seven things I learned from What People Said About Books in 1498, > by > > > John > > > > > H. Lienhard (http://www.uh.edu/engines/indiana.htm): > > > > > > > > > > 1. Sharing is a cultural invention, not a technological one. > Sharing > > > must > > > > > be reinvented in each community and in each generation. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Caxton was not a cultural snob. > > > > > > > > > > 3. Margaret was one cool hipster. > > > > > > > > > > 4. Mennochio and I have a few things in common, but I hope to live > to > > > be > > > > > an old woman and not charcoal on a stick. > > > > > > > > > > 5. I regret Lienhard's the analysis of Medieval scholars using > > > > > Myers-Briggs. I wish that rubric would just die. > > > > > > > > > > 6. "We cannot have a clue as to what any technological future will > be > > > > > until we learn it from a new generation of users." <-- What he > > said!!! > > > > > > > > > > 7. We can only know what we know when we have an idea what we don't > > > know. > > > > > Which is why I love what he said about seeking our ignorance. And: > > "To > > > > > impose is not to discover." Yeah. That. > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > object > > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sat Mar 14 09:02:56 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 16:02:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] How does a child avoid Buridanism before speech Message-ID: <765263085.2653290.1426348976009.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi As food for thought : Vygotsky : Not in vain does Bacon?place control of nature and control of intellect in one order; he says that the bare?hand and the mind taken in themselves do not mean much-the deed is done with?tools and auxiliary means.? But no one expressed with such clarity the general idea that freedom of will?is derived from and develops in the process of the historical development of humanity as did Engels. He says: "Not in the imaginary independence of laws of nature does freedom lie, ?but in recognizing these laws ?and, based on this, knowing?the possibilities of systematically making the laws ?of nature work toward certain?goals. This refers both to laws of external nature and to laws that govern the bodily?and mental existence of man himself-that there are two classes of laws that can?be separated from each other is the most important thing in our concept which is?by no means far from reality. Consequently, freedom of will means nothing other?than the ability to make a decision with knowledge of the matter" (Marx and?Engels, Collected Works, Vol. 20, p. 116). In other words, Engels places in one order?the control of nature and control of self. Freedom of will with respect to one and?the other is, for him as for Hegel, understanding necessity.?Self-Control ?219? Engels says: "Consequently, freedom is based on recognizing the needs of nature (Natumotwendigheiten), control of ourselves and of external nature; for this?reason, it is ?an indispensable product of historical development. The first humans?coming out of the animal kingdom were in all essentials as lacking in freedom as?the animals; but each step forward on the path of culture was a step toward freedom" (ibid.).? Best Haydi From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sat Mar 14 09:40:15 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 16:40:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> <55020e82.842c460a.0c2f.07cd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <0E4E8769-20C4-4159-A533-7549E5820FA9@uniandes.edu.co> Nonsense, David, she's reading the list of ingredients printed on the bottom! And isn't "Baby Bites" wonderfully polysemous? Martin On Mar 13, 2015, at 4:17 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > http://www.greatnewplaces.com/images/Kids/img7189_30122012121700.jpeg > > My students were struck by the fact that the child, surrounded by elaborate > tools not of her own making, seems much more interested in the objects as > objects than in their use as signs. From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Mar 14 14:42:48 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 06:42:48 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: <0E4E8769-20C4-4159-A533-7549E5820FA9@uniandes.edu.co> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1425857429345.15333@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A48771@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E395E74-78F5-4896-A9C6-64D5D753D2BA@uniandes.edu.co> <1426030560587.85850@unm.edu> <55020e82.842c460a.0c2f.07cd@mx.google.com> <0E4E8769-20C4-4159-A533-7549E5820FA9@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Well, of course, from the child's point of view, "Baby Bites" is probably not even monosemous, merely alliterative. As Haydi says--how does the child avoid Buridanism before speech? I take it that what he means is that in order to master the system, what is required is not simply the mindless internalization of some purely external resource but rather (as in the crises we find in other forms of development, e.g. sociogenesis and even phylogenesis) the constraining of some super-productive neoformation that emerges at the interface between the child and the environment--that is, the narrowing of the available choices we find in ('autonomous') child language to fit the phonological system of the mother tongue (as Halliday points out, learning a mother tongue is really learning a second language!). I think the answer is that the child initially treats speech as something that is not even monosemous but merely alliterative--sound without meaning. So how does the child master the sounds? According to the genetic law, sounds would be initially constrained by imitation and then elaborated by self-imitation: that is, repetition. But how? Alliteration appears to be clearly differentiated before rhyme in English poetry (c.f. "Gawain and the Green Knight"). Ontogenesis too? That would mean that the child is aware of a choice of different consonants before the child is aware of a choice of different vowels, and that does seem to be the case. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 15 March 2015 at 01:40, Martin John Packer wrote: > Nonsense, David, she's reading the list of ingredients printed on the > bottom! > > And isn't "Baby Bites" wonderfully polysemous? > > Martin > > On Mar 13, 2015, at 4:17 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > > > > http://www.greatnewplaces.com/images/Kids/img7189_30122012121700.jpeg > > > > My students were struck by the fact that the child, surrounded by > elaborate > > tools not of her own making, seems much more interested in the objects as > > objects than in their use as signs. > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Mar 14 16:10:57 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 16:10:57 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Assessing informal learning: Amazon Message-ID: I just got a note saying the booklet on describing and assessing informal learning is now at Amazon, for them that wants. mike http://www.amazon.com/Documenting-Assessing-Media-Rich-Environments-Foundation/dp/026252774X -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From blantonwe@gmail.com Sat Mar 14 16:34:15 2015 From: blantonwe@gmail.com (William Blanton) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 16:34:15 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Assessing informal learning: Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey I have one on the way. It will be a part of the future work. BB On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 4:10 PM, mike cole wrote: > I just got a note saying the booklet on describing and assessing informal > learning is now at Amazon, for them that wants. > mike > > > http://www.amazon.com/Documenting-Assessing-Media-Rich-Environments-Foundation/dp/026252774X > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sun Mar 15 01:16:46 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 08:16:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1794094062.7969537.1426407406883.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks , David ! I'm following the case using what you wrote as clues to clarification .? From: David Kellogg To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Sunday, 15 March 2015, 1:12:48 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference Well, of course, from the child's point of view, "Baby Bites" is probably not even monosemous, merely alliterative. As Haydi says--how does the child avoid Buridanism before speech? I take it that what he means is that in order to master the system, what is required is not simply the mindless internalization of some purely external resource but rather (as in the crises we find in other forms of development, e.g. sociogenesis and even phylogenesis) the constraining of some super-productive neoformation that emerges at the interface between the child and the environment--that is, the narrowing of the available choices we find in ('autonomous') child language to fit the phonological system of the mother tongue (as Halliday points out, learning a mother tongue is really learning a second language!). I think the answer is that the child initially treats speech as something that is not even monosemous but merely alliterative--sound without meaning. So how does the child master the sounds? According to the genetic law, sounds would be initially constrained by imitation and then elaborated by self-imitation: that is, repetition. But how? Alliteration appears to be clearly differentiated before rhyme in English poetry (c.f. "Gawain and the Green Knight"). Ontogenesis too? That would mean that the child is aware of a choice of different consonants before the child is aware of a choice of different vowels, and that does seem to be the case. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 15 March 2015 at 01:40, Martin John Packer wrote: > Nonsense, David, she's reading the list of ingredients printed on the > bottom! > > And isn't "Baby Bites" wonderfully polysemous? > > Martin > > On Mar 13, 2015, at 4:17 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > > > > http://www.greatnewplaces.com/images/Kids/img7189_30122012121700.jpeg > > > > My students were struck by the fact that the child, surrounded by > elaborate > > tools not of her own making, seems much more interested in the objects as > > objects than in their use as signs. > > > From ablunden@mira.net Sun Mar 15 19:42:54 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:42:54 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Vygotsky and Deborin Message-ID: <5506432E.6000109@mira.net> Is there anyone who can tell me a bit more about the relationship between Vygotsky and Abram Deborin, who was an editor of "Under the Banner of Marxism," a fan of Spinoza and I believe the translator of the Russian version of Hegel's Shorter Logic. I would be particularly interested in the dates of interactions between them. Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Mar 15 21:36:22 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 21:36:22 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and Deborin In-Reply-To: <5506432E.6000109@mira.net> References: <5506432E.6000109@mira.net> Message-ID: I would consult David Bakhurst's early book. mike On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Is there anyone who can tell me a bit more about the relationship between > Vygotsky and Abram Deborin, who was an editor of "Under the Banner of > Marxism," a fan of Spinoza and I believe the translator of the Russian > version of Hegel's Shorter Logic. I would be particularly interested in the > dates of interactions between them. > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Mar 16 01:28:13 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 17:28:13 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: <1794094062.7969537.1426407406883.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1794094062.7969537.1426407406883.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This morning I went out shopping and noticed a billboard selling lunchboxes. It featured a young girl whose boyfriend was obviously off doing military service (two and half years of rigorously institutionalized bullying and beatings); she was dressed up in a military uniform and eating out of a lunchbox in solidarity with the absent one, and the sound she was making was "ing! ing!" My sentiments exactly! I have been kicking myself, if not quite beating myself with a shovel, for arguing yesterday that consonants are differentiated before vowels. I am currently reading a set of studies coming out of China that try to argue this, and try to explain it on the grounds of the greater salience of consonant sounds. But vowels and consonants are not part of Chinese; the smallest meaningful difference in Chinese is a whole syllable. It's just another example of the imperialism of Western linguistics--everything has to be treated as if it had, deep in its guts, a Western alphabet trying to get out. Even in English, it seems to me that vowels and consonants have to be differentiated side by side, out of some prior sound that is neither. And that prior sound? Well, actually, it's the most common sound in the Chinese repertoire--the naseopharyngealized semi-vowel that babies make when they are born, which rhymes with "ing". David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 15 March 2015 at 17:16, Haydi Zulfei wrote: > Thanks , David ! I'm following the case using what you wrote as clues to > clarification . > From: David Kellogg > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Sunday, 15 March 2015, 1:12:48 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference > > Well, of course, from the child's point of view, "Baby Bites" is probably > not even monosemous, merely alliterative. > > As Haydi says--how does the child avoid Buridanism before speech? I take it > that what he means is that in order to master the system, what is required > is not simply the mindless internalization of some purely external resource > but rather (as in the crises we find in other forms of development, e.g. > sociogenesis and even phylogenesis) the constraining of some > super-productive neoformation that emerges at the interface between the > child and the environment--that is, the narrowing of the available choices > we find in ('autonomous') child language to fit the phonological system of > the mother tongue (as Halliday points out, learning a mother tongue is > really learning a second language!). > > I think the answer is that the child initially treats speech as something > that is not even monosemous but merely alliterative--sound without meaning. > So how does the child master the sounds? According to the genetic law, > sounds would be initially constrained by imitation and then elaborated by > self-imitation: that is, repetition. But how? > > Alliteration appears to be clearly differentiated before rhyme in English > poetry (c.f. "Gawain and the Green Knight"). Ontogenesis too? That would > mean that the child is aware of a choice of different consonants before the > child is aware of a choice of different vowels, and that does seem to be > the case. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > On 15 March 2015 at 01:40, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > > Nonsense, David, she's reading the list of ingredients printed on the > > bottom! > > > > And isn't "Baby Bites" wonderfully polysemous? > > > > Martin > > > > On Mar 13, 2015, at 4:17 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > > > > > > > http://www.greatnewplaces.com/images/Kids/img7189_30122012121700.jpeg > > > > > > My students were struck by the fact that the child, surrounded by > > elaborate > > > tools not of her own making, seems much more interested in the objects > as > > > objects than in their use as signs. > > > > > > > > > > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Mon Mar 16 01:59:04 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 08:59:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <1794094062.7969537.1426407406883.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CAFBC@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> I wish I could remember where I read that the first 'words' are variations of 'yum' or 'mmm' for approval and 'yuk' for disgust - exaggerated vocalisations oral 'taking in' - ingesting what is pleasurable and spitting out, ejecting what is unpalateable. So is 'ing' Chinese for 'mmm'? Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: 16 March 2015 08:28 To: Haydi Zulfei; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference This morning I went out shopping and noticed a billboard selling lunchboxes. It featured a young girl whose boyfriend was obviously off doing military service (two and half years of rigorously institutionalized bullying and beatings); she was dressed up in a military uniform and eating out of a lunchbox in solidarity with the absent one, and the sound she was making was "ing! ing!" My sentiments exactly! I have been kicking myself, if not quite beating myself with a shovel, for arguing yesterday that consonants are differentiated before vowels. I am currently reading a set of studies coming out of China that try to argue this, and try to explain it on the grounds of the greater salience of consonant sounds. But vowels and consonants are not part of Chinese; the smallest meaningful difference in Chinese is a whole syllable. It's just another example of the imperialism of Western linguistics--everything has to be treated as if it had, deep in its guts, a Western alphabet trying to get out. Even in English, it seems to me that vowels and consonants have to be differentiated side by side, out of some prior sound that is neither. And that prior sound? Well, actually, it's the most common sound in the Chinese repertoire--the naseopharyngealized semi-vowel that babies make when they are born, which rhymes with "ing". David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 15 March 2015 at 17:16, Haydi Zulfei wrote: > Thanks , David ! I'm following the case using what you wrote as clues > to clarification . > From: David Kellogg > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Sunday, 15 March 2015, 1:12:48 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference > > Well, of course, from the child's point of view, "Baby Bites" is > probably not even monosemous, merely alliterative. > > As Haydi says--how does the child avoid Buridanism before speech? I > take it that what he means is that in order to master the system, what > is required is not simply the mindless internalization of some purely > external resource but rather (as in the crises we find in other forms of development, e.g. > sociogenesis and even phylogenesis) the constraining of some > super-productive neoformation that emerges at the interface between > the child and the environment--that is, the narrowing of the available > choices we find in ('autonomous') child language to fit the > phonological system of the mother tongue (as Halliday points out, > learning a mother tongue is really learning a second language!). > > I think the answer is that the child initially treats speech as > something that is not even monosemous but merely alliterative--sound without meaning. > So how does the child master the sounds? According to the genetic law, > sounds would be initially constrained by imitation and then elaborated > by > self-imitation: that is, repetition. But how? > > Alliteration appears to be clearly differentiated before rhyme in > English poetry (c.f. "Gawain and the Green Knight"). Ontogenesis too? > That would mean that the child is aware of a choice of different > consonants before the child is aware of a choice of different vowels, > and that does seem to be the case. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > On 15 March 2015 at 01:40, Martin John Packer > > wrote: > > > Nonsense, David, she's reading the list of ingredients printed on > > the bottom! > > > > And isn't "Baby Bites" wonderfully polysemous? > > > > Martin > > > > On Mar 13, 2015, at 4:17 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > > > > > > > http://www.greatnewplaces.com/images/Kids/img7189_30122012121700.j > > > peg > > > > > > My students were struck by the fact that the child, surrounded by > > elaborate > > > tools not of her own making, seems much more interested in the > > > objects > as > > > objects than in their use as signs. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From smago@uga.edu Mon Mar 16 03:23:29 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 10:23:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Connected Course on Design Research In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: THIS IS A FORWARDED MESSAGE. PLEASE READ ITS CONTENTS CAREFULLY AND REPLY TO THE ORIGINAL SENDER RATHER THAN TO ME From: Lindy Johnson [mailto:lindyljohnson@gmail.com] Hi everyone, I'm part of the steering committee for the just-launched Digital Media and Learning Commons (http://dmlcommons.net/design-research/ ). The DML Commons is sponsored by the Digital and Media Learning Research Hub housed at UC Irvine and is funded by the MacArthur Foundation, and is under the general management of Mimi Ito. We're starting an open, connected course on on design research that begins March 23rd. This course (it's free!) is created for anyone who wants to learn more about design research. I hope some of you will consider participating! It would be great to have a nice representation of literacy folks doing this work join the conversation. Best, Lindy -- Lindy L. Johnson Chair, Conference on English Education-Graduate Strand Assistant Professor of English Education The College of William & Mary From smago@uga.edu Mon Mar 16 04:45:49 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 11:45:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: New Book on Brain-Friendly Assessments is Here! In-Reply-To: <258917601.-1354547588.1426503217451.JavaMail.root@sjmas01.marketo.org> References: <258917601.-1354547588.1426503217451.JavaMail.root@sjmas01.marketo.org> Message-ID: The latest in culture-free educational solutions?..p From: Learning Sciences International [mailto:lsiinfo@learningsciences.com] Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 6:54 AM To: Peter Smagorinsky Subject: New Book on Brain-Friendly Assessments is Here! FORWARD THIS EMAIL [Learning Sciences International] NOW AVAILABLE! Effective assessments based on neuroscience. Looking to design brain-friendly assessments that deepen students? understanding? Want to fairly assess all students, including English-language learners and those who are homeschooled? In Brain-Friendly Assessments, by bestselling author David A. Sousa empowers teachers with research findings from educational neuroscience to help determine what, who, where, and how to assess?and it?s now available! ORDER NOW and you can have a copy in your hands this week! ?A powerful book, Brain-Friendly Assessments has informed my instruction as well as assessment. I cannot overstate how appreciative I am of the way the author distilled the essence of assessment into student-centered, sensible best practices.? ?Alana Margeson, 2012 Maine Teacher of the Year Brain-Friendly Assessments What They Are and How to Use Them [Brain-Friendly Assessments] [ORDER NOW] LEARNING SCIENCES INTERNATIONAL About Us | Research Services | Student Surveys | Publishing | Blog | Contact Us [Facebook] [Twitter] [Google +] [Pinterest] This email was sent to SMAGO@UGA.EDU. If you no longer wish to receive these emails you may unsubscribe at any time. 1400 Centrepark Boulevard, Suite 1000 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 From ablunden@mira.net Mon Mar 16 05:09:16 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 23:09:16 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: New Book on Brain-Friendly Assessments is Here! In-Reply-To: References: <258917601.-1354547588.1426503217451.JavaMail.root@sjmas01.marketo.org> Message-ID: <5506C7EC.30204@mira.net> I think I'll send my brain along to one of these sessions! Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > The latest in culture-free educational solutions?..p > > From: Learning Sciences International [mailto:lsiinfo@learningsciences.com] > Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 6:54 AM > To: Peter Smagorinsky > Subject: New Book on Brain-Friendly Assessments is Here! > > > > FORWARD THIS EMAIL > > > [Learning Sciences International] > > > NOW AVAILABLE! > > Effective assessments based on neuroscience. > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking to design brain-friendly assessments that deepen students? understanding? Want to fairly assess all students, including English-language learners and those who are homeschooled? > > In Brain-Friendly Assessments, by bestselling author David A. Sousa empowers teachers with research findings from educational neuroscience to help determine what, who, where, and how to assess?and it?s now available! > > ORDER NOW and you can have a copy in your hands this week! > > ?A powerful book, Brain-Friendly Assessments has informed my instruction as well as assessment. I cannot overstate how appreciative I am of the way the author distilled the essence of assessment into student-centered, sensible best practices.? > > ?Alana Margeson, 2012 Maine Teacher of the Year > > > > > > > Brain-Friendly > Assessments > > > What They Are and How to Use Them > [Brain-Friendly Assessments] > > [ORDER NOW] > > > > > > > > LEARNING SCIENCES INTERNATIONAL > > About Us | Research Services | Student Surveys | Publishing | Blog | Contact Us > [Facebook] > > [Twitter] > > [Google +] > > [Pinterest] > > > > > > > > > This email was sent to SMAGO@UGA.EDU. If you no longer wish to receive these emails you may unsubscribe at any time. > 1400 Centrepark Boulevard, Suite 1000 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 > From helen.harper@bigpond.com Mon Mar 16 05:26:38 2015 From: helen.harper@bigpond.com (Helen Harper) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 21:56:38 +0930 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: New Book on Brain-Friendly Assessments is Here! In-Reply-To: <5506C7EC.30204@mira.net> References: <258917601.-1354547588.1426503217451.JavaMail.root@sjmas01.marketo.org> <5506C7EC.30204@mira.net> Message-ID: Speaking of which, can anyone point me to any recent sociocultural or cultural-historical-informed critiques of the current culture-free trends in educational neuroscience? I would be much obliged. Helen > On 16 Mar 2015, at 9:39 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > > I think I'll send my brain along to one of these sessions! > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Peter Smagorinsky wrote: >> The latest in culture-free educational solutions?..p >> >> From: Learning Sciences International [mailto:lsiinfo@learningsciences.com] >> Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 6:54 AM >> To: Peter Smagorinsky >> Subject: New Book on Brain-Friendly Assessments is Here! >> >> >> >> FORWARD THIS EMAIL >> >> >> [Learning Sciences International] >> >> >> NOW AVAILABLE! >> >> Effective assessments based on neuroscience. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Looking to design brain-friendly assessments that deepen students? understanding? Want to fairly assess all students, including English-language learners and those who are homeschooled? >> >> In Brain-Friendly Assessments, by bestselling author David A. Sousa empowers teachers with research findings from educational neuroscience to help determine what, who, where, and how to assess?and it?s now available! >> >> ORDER NOW and you can have a copy in your hands this week! >> >> ?A powerful book, Brain-Friendly Assessments has informed my instruction as well as assessment. I cannot overstate how appreciative I am of the way the author distilled the essence of assessment into student-centered, sensible best practices.? >> >> ?Alana Margeson, 2012 Maine Teacher of the Year >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Brain-Friendly >> Assessments >> >> >> What They Are and How to Use Them >> [Brain-Friendly Assessments] >> >> [ORDER NOW] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> LEARNING SCIENCES INTERNATIONAL >> >> About Us | Research Services | Student Surveys | Publishing | Blog | Contact Us >> [Facebook] >> >> [Twitter] >> >> [Google +] >> >> [Pinterest] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This email was sent to SMAGO@UGA.EDU. If you no longer wish to receive these emails you may unsubscribe at any time. >> 1400 Centrepark Boulevard, Suite 1000 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 >> > From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Mar 16 09:39:20 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 10:39:20 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CAFBC@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <1794094062.7969537.1426407406883.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CAFBC@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <887B70AE-CEC7-48A2-9DCF-B9A57431323B@gmail.com> Hello All, The following has occurred to me as I follow this thread: -Perhaps it would be useful to think of computers as on the environmental-literacy side of literacy, as contrasted with a more intimate book-in-hand side of literacy. Vera John-Steiner, in her Notebooks of the Mind, discusses how writers choose their tools: Some write long hand; others type. The mix of technologies seem to affect the reading/writing process in very deep ways. I wonder if this sheds any light on the tool vs. sign distinction elaborated in Andy?s Academia article on tool vs. sign. -No one, as far as I remember, has discussed on this web the differences between logographic (Chinsese) and alphabetic writing systems. Again, this seems to me to be a continuum, given the capacity, on the one hand, of Chinese literacy to write phonetically and the flood, on the other hand, of icons in alphabet-based writing (take the McDonald arches). -Rod?s post reminds me of a long-standing problem I have with l?Arbitraire du Signe ?law? that there is no necessary connection between the phonological pole and the semantic pole, with the relatively unusual exception of onomatopeia or the MMMMM/YUCK distinction made by little gourmands. The best counter evidence, it seems to me, are the choices we make in how much our writing in English draws on vocabulary of Anglo-Saxon origin and how much of Latinate origin. I?m not sure if I am hinting at a wider issue of how much culture reflects differences BETWEEN cultures and how much reflects the way in which the mixes of technology of each culture point towards universal tendencies of seeking balance, some sort of homeostasis. Some may think I?ve bit off more than I can chew. Yuck or Yum? Henry > On Mar 16, 2015, at 2:59 AM, Rod Parker-Rees wrote: > > I wish I could remember where I read that the first 'words' are variations of 'yum' or 'mmm' for approval and 'yuk' for disgust - exaggerated vocalisations oral 'taking in' - ingesting what is pleasurable and spitting out, ejecting what is unpalateable. So is 'ing' Chinese for 'mmm'? > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg > Sent: 16 March 2015 08:28 > To: Haydi Zulfei; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference > > This morning I went out shopping and noticed a billboard selling lunchboxes. It featured a young girl whose boyfriend was obviously off doing military service (two and half years of rigorously institutionalized bullying and beatings); she was dressed up in a military uniform and eating out of a lunchbox in solidarity with the absent one, and the sound she was making was "ing! ing!" > > My sentiments exactly! I have been kicking myself, if not quite beating myself with a shovel, for arguing yesterday that consonants are differentiated before vowels. I am currently reading a set of studies coming out of China that try to argue this, and try to explain it on the grounds of the greater salience of consonant sounds. But vowels and consonants are not part of Chinese; the smallest meaningful difference in Chinese is a whole syllable. It's just another example of the imperialism of Western linguistics--everything has to be treated as if it had, deep in its guts, a Western alphabet trying to get out. > > Even in English, it seems to me that vowels and consonants have to be differentiated side by side, out of some prior sound that is neither. And that prior sound? Well, actually, it's the most common sound in the Chinese repertoire--the naseopharyngealized semi-vowel that babies make when they are born, which rhymes with "ing". > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 15 March 2015 at 17:16, Haydi Zulfei wrote: > >> Thanks , David ! I'm following the case using what you wrote as clues >> to clarification . >> From: David Kellogg >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> Sent: Sunday, 15 March 2015, 1:12:48 >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference >> >> Well, of course, from the child's point of view, "Baby Bites" is >> probably not even monosemous, merely alliterative. >> >> As Haydi says--how does the child avoid Buridanism before speech? I >> take it that what he means is that in order to master the system, what >> is required is not simply the mindless internalization of some purely >> external resource but rather (as in the crises we find in other forms of development, e.g. >> sociogenesis and even phylogenesis) the constraining of some >> super-productive neoformation that emerges at the interface between >> the child and the environment--that is, the narrowing of the available >> choices we find in ('autonomous') child language to fit the >> phonological system of the mother tongue (as Halliday points out, >> learning a mother tongue is really learning a second language!). >> >> I think the answer is that the child initially treats speech as >> something that is not even monosemous but merely alliterative--sound without meaning. >> So how does the child master the sounds? According to the genetic law, >> sounds would be initially constrained by imitation and then elaborated >> by >> self-imitation: that is, repetition. But how? >> >> Alliteration appears to be clearly differentiated before rhyme in >> English poetry (c.f. "Gawain and the Green Knight"). Ontogenesis too? >> That would mean that the child is aware of a choice of different >> consonants before the child is aware of a choice of different vowels, >> and that does seem to be the case. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> >> >> On 15 March 2015 at 01:40, Martin John Packer >> >> wrote: >> >>> Nonsense, David, she's reading the list of ingredients printed on >>> the bottom! >>> >>> And isn't "Baby Bites" wonderfully polysemous? >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> On Mar 13, 2015, at 4:17 PM, David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> http://www.greatnewplaces.com/images/Kids/img7189_30122012121700.j >>>> peg >>>> >>>> My students were struck by the fact that the child, surrounded by >>> elaborate >>>> tools not of her own making, seems much more interested in the >>>> objects >> as >>>> objects than in their use as signs. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. > From lemke.jay@gmail.com Mon Mar 16 10:21:36 2015 From: lemke.jay@gmail.com (Jay Lemke) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 10:21:36 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Assessing Informal Learning -- on Amazon Message-ID: For those of you interested in the complete text of our new book on documenting and assessing learning in informal activities (Lemke, Lecusay, Cole, & Michalchik 2015), it is now available at a discount price via Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Documenting-Assessing-Media-Rich-Environments-Foundation/dp/026252774X Jay Lemke LCHC/Department of Communication University of California - San Diego www.jaylemke.com From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Mon Mar 16 10:45:12 2015 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (rjsp2) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 17:45:12 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Assessing Informal Learning -- on Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <550716A8.60109@open.ac.uk> Are there alternatives for those of us who are not using Amazon till a) they start paying tax in the countries where they do their business and b) start paying their workers fairly? Rob On 16/03/2015 17:21, Jay Lemke wrote: > For those of you interested in the complete text of our new book on > documenting and assessing learning in informal activities (Lemke, Lecusay, > Cole, & Michalchik 2015), it is now available at a discount price via > Amazon: > > http://www.amazon.com/Documenting-Assessing-Media-Rich-Environments-Foundation/dp/026252774X > > > > Jay Lemke > LCHC/Department of Communication > University of California - San Diego > www.jaylemke.com -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. From bella.kotik@gmail.com Mon Mar 16 10:49:13 2015 From: bella.kotik@gmail.com (Bella Kotik-Friedgut) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 19:49:13 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] A new book Message-ID: *[image: Inline image 1]* *Academic Studies Press* *Antonella Castelnuovo & Bella S. Kotik-Friedgut* Preface by Clotilde Pontecorvo *Series: *Judaism and Jewish Life *ISBN: *9781936235582 (hardcover) *Pages: *310 pp. *Publication Date:* February 2015 http://www.academicstudiespress.com/jewish-studies-books/vygotsky-bernstein-in-the-light-of-jewish-tradition?utm_source=Jewish+Studies+Newsletter&utm_campaign=1c14942b61-Jewish_Studies_Newsletter_March_20153_16_2015&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b0011f9029-1c14942b61-166425321&mc_cid=1c14942b61&mc_eid=0fe3fdad26 Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 40955 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150316/01c7a55d/attachment.png From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Mar 16 11:06:16 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 11:06:16 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Assessing Informal Learning -- on Amazon In-Reply-To: <550716A8.60109@open.ac.uk> References: <550716A8.60109@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: Sure, Rob. It can be obtained here: http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/documenting-and-assessing-learning-informal-and-media-rich-environments On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 10:45 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > Are there alternatives for those of us who are not using Amazon till a) > they start paying tax in the countries where they do their business and > b) start paying their workers fairly? > > Rob > > > On 16/03/2015 17:21, Jay Lemke wrote: > >> For those of you interested in the complete text of our new book on >> documenting and assessing learning in informal activities (Lemke, Lecusay, >> Cole, & Michalchik 2015), it is now available at a discount price via >> Amazon: >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Documenting-Assessing-Media- >> Rich-Environments-Foundation/dp/026252774X >> >> >> >> Jay Lemke >> LCHC/Department of Communication >> University of California - San Diego >> www.jaylemke.com >> > > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an > exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC > 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial > Conduct Authority. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Mon Mar 16 11:42:42 2015 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (rjsp2) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 18:42:42 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Assessing Informal Learning -- on Amazon In-Reply-To: References: <550716A8.60109@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <55072422.7000000@open.ac.uk> Of course it is - that's where you first pointed us. Sorry - I shall now crawl back into the seventh circle of marking hell, and addle my brain even further. Rob On 16/03/2015 18:06, mike cole wrote: > Sure, Rob. It can be obtained here: > > http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/documenting-and-assessing-learning-informal-and-media-rich-environments > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 10:45 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > >> Are there alternatives for those of us who are not using Amazon till a) >> they start paying tax in the countries where they do their business and >> b) start paying their workers fairly? >> >> Rob >> >> >> On 16/03/2015 17:21, Jay Lemke wrote: >> >>> For those of you interested in the complete text of our new book on >>> documenting and assessing learning in informal activities (Lemke, Lecusay, >>> Cole, & Michalchik 2015), it is now available at a discount price via >>> Amazon: >>> >>> http://www.amazon.com/Documenting-Assessing-Media- >>> Rich-Environments-Foundation/dp/026252774X >>> >>> >>> >>> Jay Lemke >>> LCHC/Department of Communication >>> University of California - San Diego >>> www.jaylemke.com >>> >> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an >> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC >> 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial >> Conduct Authority. >> >> > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Mar 16 12:05:08 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:05:08 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Assessing Informal Learning -- on Amazon In-Reply-To: <55072422.7000000@open.ac.uk> References: <550716A8.60109@open.ac.uk> <55072422.7000000@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: You are corresponding with the prince-of-the-addled-brain, Rob. If it were not for Jay's steady hand, this would never have gotten us past the tech report stage. We are pushing for an e-version. For those who engage in the relevant sort of research, it is a handy compendium of approaches that seemed promising and a lot of labor went into its production, so hopefully there is some left over surplus value for the consumer. :-) mike On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 11:42 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > Of course it is - that's where you first pointed us. Sorry - I shall now > crawl back into the seventh circle of marking hell, and addle my brain > even further. > > Rob > > On 16/03/2015 18:06, mike cole wrote: > >> Sure, Rob. It can be obtained here: >> >> http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/documenting-and-assessing- >> learning-informal-and-media-rich-environments >> >> On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 10:45 AM, rjsp2 wrote: >> >> Are there alternatives for those of us who are not using Amazon till a) >>> they start paying tax in the countries where they do their business and >>> b) start paying their workers fairly? >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> >>> On 16/03/2015 17:21, Jay Lemke wrote: >>> >>> For those of you interested in the complete text of our new book on >>>> documenting and assessing learning in informal activities (Lemke, >>>> Lecusay, >>>> Cole, & Michalchik 2015), it is now available at a discount price via >>>> Amazon: >>>> >>>> http://www.amazon.com/Documenting-Assessing-Media- >>>> Rich-Environments-Foundation/dp/026252774X >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jay Lemke >>>> LCHC/Department of Communication >>>> University of California - San Diego >>>> www.jaylemke.com >>>> >>>> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an >>> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland >>> (SC >>> 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial >>> Conduct Authority. >>> >>> >>> >> > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an > exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC > 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial > Conduct Authority. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Mon Mar 16 13:19:55 2015 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (rjsp2) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:19:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Assessing Informal Learning -- on Amazon In-Reply-To: References: <550716A8.60109@open.ac.uk> <55072422.7000000@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <55073AEB.8020007@open.ac.uk> Well, I've just ordered through https://www.hive.co.uk, and got a small percentage off and free delivery. A good deal for anyone in the UK. Rob On 16/03/2015 19:05, mike cole wrote: > You are corresponding with the prince-of-the-addled-brain, Rob. If it were > not for > Jay's steady hand, this would never have gotten us past the tech report > stage. We are > pushing for an e-version. For those who engage in the relevant sort of > research, it is > a handy compendium of approaches that seemed promising and a lot of labor > went into > its production, so hopefully there is some left over surplus value for the > consumer. :-) > mike > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 11:42 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > >> Of course it is - that's where you first pointed us. Sorry - I shall now >> crawl back into the seventh circle of marking hell, and addle my brain >> even further. >> >> Rob >> >> On 16/03/2015 18:06, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Sure, Rob. It can be obtained here: >>> >>> http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/documenting-and-assessing- >>> learning-informal-and-media-rich-environments >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 10:45 AM, rjsp2 wrote: >>> >>> Are there alternatives for those of us who are not using Amazon till a) >>>> they start paying tax in the countries where they do their business and >>>> b) start paying their workers fairly? >>>> >>>> Rob >>>> >>>> >>>> On 16/03/2015 17:21, Jay Lemke wrote: >>>> >>>> For those of you interested in the complete text of our new book on >>>>> documenting and assessing learning in informal activities (Lemke, >>>>> Lecusay, >>>>> Cole, & Michalchik 2015), it is now available at a discount price via >>>>> Amazon: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.amazon.com/Documenting-Assessing-Media- >>>>> Rich-Environments-Foundation/dp/026252774X >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jay Lemke >>>>> LCHC/Department of Communication >>>>> University of California - San Diego >>>>> www.jaylemke.com >>>>> >>>>> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an >>>> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland >>>> (SC >>>> 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial >>>> Conduct Authority. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an >> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC >> 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial >> Conduct Authority. >> >> > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Mar 16 13:25:51 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:25:51 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Postdoctoral Fellowship at Northwestern University In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Excellent opportunity for the right person. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Brooke Sprague Date: Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 12:51 PM Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Postdoctoral Fellowship at Northwestern University To: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org *Postdoctoral Fellow, Department of Psychology, Northwestern University* Professor Sandra Waxman invites applications for an NIH-funded postdoctoral fellowship to work on language acquisition, cognitive development and the links between them in the first two years of life. The postdoctoral fellow will participate as a full collaborator, working within a dynamic, interactive lab team. Candidates should be creative, independent, articulate, and deeply engaged in questions concerning the early acquisition of language and core cognitive capacities. QUALIFICATIONS: A completed Ph.D. in Psychology, Linguistics, Computer Science, Cognitive Science or related field is required. Excellent academic writing skills and research experience with infants or young children are essential. Excellent data analytic skills, or an eagerness to learn, are essential. Experience with eye tracking methods is beneficial but not required. START DATE: Flexible. Ideally after June 1 and before October 1, 2015. We ask for a 2-year commitment. A third year renewal is possible. SALARY: Salary will be based on the NIH postdoctoral rates. TO APPLY: Please submit a CV, cover letter with statement of research interests (1-2 pages), email contact for three references, and up to two publications that you consider representative of your best work. Reference letters will be requested from short-listed applicants. Please send application materials as a single PDF document to Brooke Sprague: brooke.sprague@northwestern.edu. Other inquiries may be directed to Sandra Waxman at s-waxman@northwestern.edu. Women, LGBTQ and under-represented minority applicants are encouraged to apply. Northwestern University is An Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. _______________________________________________ To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) To subscribe or unsubscribe from the listserv, visit: http://lists.cogdevsoc.org/listinfo.cgi/cogdevsoc-cogdevsoc.org -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Mar 16 13:45:08 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:45:08 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: New Book on Brain-Friendly Assessments is Here! In-Reply-To: References: <258917601.-1354547588.1426503217451.JavaMail.root@sjmas01.marketo.org> <5506C7EC.30204@mira.net> Message-ID: Some relevant material here, Helen. Peter probably has a bunch more. I am afraid that back to the future is the way things are going. Very nice when you like that past as your future, not so nice when you don't...... makes it seems like you want to ask, a la Pete Seeger and "where have all the flowers gone," "when will they ever learn." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y2SIIeqy34 mike On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 5:26 AM, Helen Harper wrote: > Speaking of which, can anyone point me to any recent sociocultural or > cultural-historical-informed critiques of the current culture-free trends > in educational neuroscience? I would be much obliged. > > Helen > > > > On 16 Mar 2015, at 9:39 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > I think I'll send my brain along to one of these sessions! > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > >> The latest in culture-free educational solutions?..p > >> > >> From: Learning Sciences International [mailto: > lsiinfo@learningsciences.com] > >> Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 6:54 AM > >> To: Peter Smagorinsky > >> Subject: New Book on Brain-Friendly Assessments is Here! > >> > >> > >> > >> FORWARD THIS EMAIL< > http://email.learningsciences.com/v/CAi00q0ab0ZT0VBV3T07J08> > >> > >> > >> [Learning Sciences International] > >> > >> > >> NOW AVAILABLE! > >> > >> Effective assessments based on neuroscience. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Looking to design brain-friendly assessments that deepen students? > understanding? Want to fairly assess all students, including > English-language learners and those who are homeschooled? > >> > >> In Brain-Friendly Assessments< > http://email.learningsciences.com/kT0rb0V00Zi03ABTV70b80J>, by > bestselling author David A. Sousa empowers teachers with research findings > from educational neuroscience to help determine what, who, where, and how > to assess?and it?s now available! > >> > >> ORDER NOW > and you can have a copy in your hands this week! > >> > >> ?A powerful book, Brain-Friendly Assessments has informed my > instruction as well as assessment. I cannot overstate how appreciative I am > of the way the author distilled the essence of assessment into > student-centered, sensible best practices.? > >> > >> ?Alana Margeson, 2012 Maine Teacher of the Year > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Brain-Friendly > >> Assessments > >> > >> > >> What They Are and How to Use Them > >> [Brain-Friendly Assessments]< > http://education-store.learningsciences.com/product_p/bpp150401.htm?utm_source=bfaannouncementemail&utm_medium=sidebarimagelink&utm_campaign=bssousa > > > >> > >> [ORDER NOW]< > http://education-store.learningsciences.com/product_p/bpp150401.htm?utm_source=bfaannouncementemail&utm_medium=ordernowbutton&utm_campaign=bssousa > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> LEARNING SCIENCES INTERNATIONAL > >> > >> About Us > | Research Services< > http://email.learningsciences.com/XBb0itA0V000JZ8VT037Td0> | Student > Surveys | > Publishing | > Blog | Contact > Us > >> [Facebook] > >> > >> [Twitter] > >> > >> [Google +] > >> > >> [Pinterest] > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> This email was sent to SMAGO@UGA.EDU. If you no > longer wish to receive these emails you may unsubscribe< > http://email.learningsciences.com/u/umV000VA8b0B0C03ZiTTJ70> at any time. > >> 1400 Centrepark Boulevard, Suite 1000 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 > >> > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: deficit.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 301711 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150316/db0e1301/attachment-0001.pdf From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Mar 16 13:51:18 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:51:18 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Connected Course on Design Research In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My wife just asked me at lunch today, "where does all this talk about design come from?" Having no one in the immediate vicinity who has the vaguest idea about this topic, I can now give her the good news that there is a whole, free, course all about it! Thanks, Peter. Sounds definitely worth a look. mike On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 3:23 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > THIS IS A FORWARDED MESSAGE. PLEASE READ ITS CONTENTS CAREFULLY AND REPLY > TO THE ORIGINAL SENDER RATHER THAN TO ME > > > From: Lindy Johnson [mailto:lindyljohnson@gmail.com] > Hi everyone, > > I'm part of the steering committee for the just-launched Digital Media and > Learning Commons (http://dmlcommons.net/design-research/ ). The DML > Commons is sponsored by the Digital and Media Learning Research Hub housed > at UC Irvine and is funded by the MacArthur Foundation, and is under the > general management of Mimi Ito. > > We're starting an open, connected course on on design research that > begins March 23rd. This course (it's free!) is created for anyone who wants > to learn more about design research. I hope some of you will consider > participating! It would be great to have a nice representation of literacy > folks doing this work join the conversation. > > Best, > Lindy > > -- > Lindy L. Johnson > Chair, Conference on English Education-Graduate Strand< > http://www.ncte.org/cee/graduate> > Assistant Professor of English Education > The College of William & Mary > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Mar 16 14:32:46 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 21:32:46 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Connected Course on Design Research In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Which reminds me of the one about the activity theorist who taught his subject by rote. Huw On 16 March 2015 at 20:51, mike cole wrote: > My wife just asked me at lunch today, "where does all this talk about > design come from?" > > Having no one in the immediate vicinity who has the vaguest idea about this > topic, I can now give her the good news that there is a whole, free, course > all about it! > > Thanks, Peter. Sounds definitely worth a look. > > mike > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 3:23 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > THIS IS A FORWARDED MESSAGE. PLEASE READ ITS CONTENTS CAREFULLY AND REPLY > > TO THE ORIGINAL SENDER RATHER THAN TO ME > > > > > > From: Lindy Johnson [mailto:lindyljohnson@gmail.com] > > Hi everyone, > > > > I'm part of the steering committee for the just-launched Digital Media > and > > Learning Commons (http://dmlcommons.net/design-research/ ). The DML > > Commons is sponsored by the Digital and Media Learning Research Hub > housed > > at UC Irvine and is funded by the MacArthur Foundation, and is under the > > general management of Mimi Ito. > > > > We're starting an open, connected course on on design research that > > begins March 23rd. This course (it's free!) is created for anyone who > wants > > to learn more about design research. I hope some of you will consider > > participating! It would be great to have a nice representation of > literacy > > folks doing this work join the conversation. > > > > Best, > > Lindy > > > > -- > > Lindy L. Johnson > > Chair, Conference on English Education-Graduate Strand< > > http://www.ncte.org/cee/graduate> > > Assistant Professor of English Education > > The College of William & Mary > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Mar 16 14:41:03 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 06:41:03 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: <887B70AE-CEC7-48A2-9DCF-B9A57431323B@gmail.com> References: <1794094062.7969537.1426407406883.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CAFBC@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <887B70AE-CEC7-48A2-9DCF-B9A57431323B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, that was Leonard Bernstein's theory--that "mmm" was the first word in every language, and also the first musical note. Vygotsky prefers Lear: "When we are born we cry that we are come/To this great stage of fools." And the girl in the advertisement for lunch boxes was certainly agreeing with Vygotsky: "ing! ing!" is how Koreans transcribe the sound of weeping. Last night in my class on "Teaching Young Learners" we got to discussing what Vygotsky means when he distinguishes so starkly between the naming function and the signifying function of language: how exactly are they different? One way to look at it is to say that naming is sticking labels on physical objects--that is why children who do this are convinced that names are part of the object itself, the way that a label is part of a milk carton and the carton is what gives shape to the milk within. Signifying, on the other hand is just like naming, but the named "object" is purely imaginary--something like a mathematical set--a concept. The problem is that putting it this way makes it all about the object that is being named or signified, and I'm pretty sure that's not what Vygotsky is thinking about--or anyway it's not the only thing that he's thinking about. Both Piaget and Vygotsky take as their starting point the interesting fact that the child rejects the idea of calling the sun "moon" and the moon "sun", and claims that the sort of a cow that you can call "dog" will have little horns and give a little milk (not dog milk but cow milk). But as usual from the same fact they draw totally different conclusions. Piaget's conclusion is that the child will eventually have this illusion crushed and come to terms with the meaninglessness of the connection between sign and signifier on this great stage of fools. Vygotsky's conclusion is that there really IS a set of words of which this true! First of all, we have words like "blackbird" and "sidewalk" where an important, if epiphenomenal trait of the object really is encoded in the word itself. Of course, you can complain that there isn't anything "black" in the word black, but that doesn't change the fact that if you want to go around call bluebirds "blackbirds" and sidewalks "center-runs" then you are going to have to make major changes to more than one word in your language system. And, as Vygotsky demonstrates, if you go back in the etymology of almost ANY word you will find something like a blackbird or a sidewalk--even the word "cabbage" means "head" in its Latin root. Secondly, as Rod points out, there is onomatopoiea and what we in Korean call "ouiseongeo", or words which are intended to imitate the sounds made by actions and thereby signify the action (e.g. "crash", "smash", "bash", "mash", etc.). Here the sound of the word is surely part of the meaning, and here too the child is right when he/she insists on the non-interchangeability of words. Both "shhhhhh" and "Ker-splash!" have the sound /sh/ in them, but that doesn't make them interchangeable. So Vygotsky turns the whole question rather on its head: where and when does the interchangeability of terms arise? When do we learn to look at language and laugh that we are come to this great stage of tomfoolery? Perhaps here: http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/paintings/rene-magritte-ceci-nest-pas-une-pomme-5650359-details.aspx Magritte's painting is not an apple or even part of an apple; it's a painting of an apple. In the same way, if a child plays "war", the child is not a soldier but a "painting" of a soldier. It's this negative relationship between the sign and the thing which is abstractly everywhere the same, and everywhere abstractly interchangeable: all words are NOT the things that they signify. There's a very beautiful and bloody children's story in Korea called "Sun and Moon" about two children with those names. They are orphaned by a tiger, but they take revenge on the tiger by climbing up ropes to heaven, offering a rotten rope to the tiger, who tries to follow and kills himself. Once in heaven, the girl named Moon at first insists on shining all day and the older brother named Sun shines at night only. But after the first day on her new job, Moon decides that she is shy--and she would rather have her older brother's job. So they switch. After all, it's just role play. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies ... On 17 March 2015 at 01:39, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Hello All, > The following has occurred to me as I follow this thread: > -Perhaps it would be useful to think of computers as on the > environmental-literacy side of literacy, as contrasted with a more intimate > book-in-hand side of literacy. Vera John-Steiner, in her Notebooks of the > Mind, discusses how writers choose their tools: Some write long hand; > others type. The mix of technologies seem to affect the reading/writing > process in very deep ways. I wonder if this sheds any light on the tool vs. > sign distinction elaborated in Andy?s Academia article on tool vs. sign. > -No one, as far as I remember, has discussed on this web the differences > between logographic (Chinsese) and alphabetic writing systems. Again, this > seems to me to be a continuum, given the capacity, on the one hand, of > Chinese literacy to write phonetically and the flood, on the other hand, of > icons in alphabet-based writing (take the McDonald arches). > -Rod?s post reminds me of a long-standing problem I have with l?Arbitraire > du Signe ?law? that there is no necessary connection between the > phonological pole and the semantic pole, with the relatively unusual > exception of onomatopeia or the MMMMM/YUCK distinction made by little > gourmands. The best counter evidence, it seems to me, are the choices we > make in how much our writing in English draws on vocabulary of Anglo-Saxon > origin and how much of Latinate origin. > I?m not sure if I am hinting at a wider issue of how much culture reflects > differences BETWEEN cultures and how much reflects the way in which the > mixes of technology of each culture point towards universal tendencies of > seeking balance, some sort of homeostasis. Some may think I?ve bit off more > than I can chew. Yuck or Yum? > Henry > > > > On Mar 16, 2015, at 2:59 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > I wish I could remember where I read that the first 'words' are > variations of 'yum' or 'mmm' for approval and 'yuk' for disgust - > exaggerated vocalisations oral 'taking in' - ingesting what is pleasurable > and spitting out, ejecting what is unpalateable. So is 'ing' Chinese for > 'mmm'? > > > > Rod > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg > > Sent: 16 March 2015 08:28 > > To: Haydi Zulfei; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference > > > > This morning I went out shopping and noticed a billboard selling > lunchboxes. It featured a young girl whose boyfriend was obviously off > doing military service (two and half years of rigorously institutionalized > bullying and beatings); she was dressed up in a military uniform and eating > out of a lunchbox in solidarity with the absent one, and the sound she was > making was "ing! ing!" > > > > My sentiments exactly! I have been kicking myself, if not quite beating > myself with a shovel, for arguing yesterday that consonants are > differentiated before vowels. I am currently reading a set of studies > coming out of China that try to argue this, and try to explain it on the > grounds of the greater salience of consonant sounds. But vowels and > consonants are not part of Chinese; the smallest meaningful difference in > Chinese is a whole syllable. It's just another example of the imperialism > of Western linguistics--everything has to be treated as if it had, deep in > its guts, a Western alphabet trying to get out. > > > > Even in English, it seems to me that vowels and consonants have to be > differentiated side by side, out of some prior sound that is neither. And > that prior sound? Well, actually, it's the most common sound in the Chinese > repertoire--the naseopharyngealized semi-vowel that babies make when they > are born, which rhymes with "ing". > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > On 15 March 2015 at 17:16, Haydi Zulfei > wrote: > > > >> Thanks , David ! I'm following the case using what you wrote as clues > >> to clarification . > >> From: David Kellogg > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >> Sent: Sunday, 15 March 2015, 1:12:48 > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference > >> > >> Well, of course, from the child's point of view, "Baby Bites" is > >> probably not even monosemous, merely alliterative. > >> > >> As Haydi says--how does the child avoid Buridanism before speech? I > >> take it that what he means is that in order to master the system, what > >> is required is not simply the mindless internalization of some purely > >> external resource but rather (as in the crises we find in other forms > of development, e.g. > >> sociogenesis and even phylogenesis) the constraining of some > >> super-productive neoformation that emerges at the interface between > >> the child and the environment--that is, the narrowing of the available > >> choices we find in ('autonomous') child language to fit the > >> phonological system of the mother tongue (as Halliday points out, > >> learning a mother tongue is really learning a second language!). > >> > >> I think the answer is that the child initially treats speech as > >> something that is not even monosemous but merely alliterative--sound > without meaning. > >> So how does the child master the sounds? According to the genetic law, > >> sounds would be initially constrained by imitation and then elaborated > >> by > >> self-imitation: that is, repetition. But how? > >> > >> Alliteration appears to be clearly differentiated before rhyme in > >> English poetry (c.f. "Gawain and the Green Knight"). Ontogenesis too? > >> That would mean that the child is aware of a choice of different > >> consonants before the child is aware of a choice of different vowels, > >> and that does seem to be the case. > >> > >> David Kellogg > >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >> > >> > >> > >> On 15 March 2015 at 01:40, Martin John Packer > >> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Nonsense, David, she's reading the list of ingredients printed on > >>> the bottom! > >>> > >>> And isn't "Baby Bites" wonderfully polysemous? > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> On Mar 13, 2015, at 4:17 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> http://www.greatnewplaces.com/images/Kids/img7189_30122012121700.j > >>>> peg > >>>> > >>>> My students were struck by the fact that the child, surrounded by > >>> elaborate > >>>> tools not of her own making, seems much more interested in the > >>>> objects > >> as > >>>> objects than in their use as signs. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > ________________________________ > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > > > > From sukantamajumdar@aim.com Mon Mar 16 22:43:46 2015 From: sukantamajumdar@aim.com (Sukanta Majumdar) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 01:43:46 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Link between Phenomenological Psychology and K.L. Lewin's Field Theoretical Message-ID: <14c2642606b-545e-56b2@webprd-m24.mail.aol.com> Hello Everybody Can anybody kindly tell me, whether there is any link between Phenomenological psychology and K.L. Lewin's Field Theoretical? Regards Sukanta Majumdar From helen.harper@bigpond.com Tue Mar 17 04:31:43 2015 From: helen.harper@bigpond.com (Helen Harper) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 21:01:43 +0930 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: New Book on Brain-Friendly Assessments is Here! In-Reply-To: References: <258917601.-1354547588.1426503217451.JavaMail.root@sjmas01.marketo.org> <5506C7EC.30204@mira.net> Message-ID: Thank you very much for this article Mike. You bring such clarity to this historical perspective. I laughed when I clicked on the youtube link! (thinking it was going to be some neuroscience thing). Your discussion of Bereiter and Engelmann is especially useful and timely for me to ponder, given that the Australian government is in the process of spending millions getting remote schools to do Direct Instruction (or some form of it anyway). i was also wondering, still on the 'brain-friendly' topic, if anyone has any writing specifically about 'brain-based learning' - and whether any of those 'brain-based' people ever have anything to say about learning in a social context? I want to know, does 'brain-based learning' represent an ideology in which learning is constructed as something that takes place entirely inside the brain of the individual, or have I missed something? Helen > On 17 Mar 2015, at 6:15 am, mike cole wrote: > > Some relevant material here, Helen. Peter probably has a bunch more. > > I am afraid that back to the future is the way things are going. Very nice > when you like that past as your future, not so nice when you don't...... > makes it seems like you want to ask, a la Pete Seeger and "where have all > the flowers gone," "when will they ever learn." > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y2SIIeqy34 > > mike > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 5:26 AM, Helen Harper > wrote: > >> Speaking of which, can anyone point me to any recent sociocultural or >> cultural-historical-informed critiques of the current culture-free trends >> in educational neuroscience? I would be much obliged. >> >> Helen >> >> >>> On 16 Mar 2015, at 9:39 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> I think I'll send my brain along to one of these sessions! >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> Peter Smagorinsky wrote: >>>> The latest in culture-free educational solutions?..p >>>> >>>> From: Learning Sciences International [mailto: >> lsiinfo@learningsciences.com] >>>> Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 6:54 AM >>>> To: Peter Smagorinsky >>>> Subject: New Book on Brain-Friendly Assessments is Here! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> FORWARD THIS EMAIL< >> http://email.learningsciences.com/v/CAi00q0ab0ZT0VBV3T07J08> >>>> >>>> >>>> [Learning Sciences International] >>>> >>>> >>>> NOW AVAILABLE! >>>> >>>> Effective assessments based on neuroscience. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Looking to design brain-friendly assessments that deepen students? >> understanding? Want to fairly assess all students, including >> English-language learners and those who are homeschooled? >>>> >>>> In Brain-Friendly Assessments< >> http://email.learningsciences.com/kT0rb0V00Zi03ABTV70b80J>, by >> bestselling author David A. Sousa empowers teachers with research findings >> from educational neuroscience to help determine what, who, where, and how >> to assess?and it?s now available! >>>> >>>> ORDER NOW >> and you can have a copy in your hands this week! >>>> >>>> ?A powerful book, Brain-Friendly Assessments has informed my >> instruction as well as assessment. I cannot overstate how appreciative I am >> of the way the author distilled the essence of assessment into >> student-centered, sensible best practices.? >>>> >>>> ?Alana Margeson, 2012 Maine Teacher of the Year >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brain-Friendly >>>> Assessments >>>> >>>> >>>> What They Are and How to Use Them >>>> [Brain-Friendly Assessments]< >> http://education-store.learningsciences.com/product_p/bpp150401.htm?utm_source=bfaannouncementemail&utm_medium=sidebarimagelink&utm_campaign=bssousa >>> >>>> >>>> [ORDER NOW]< >> http://education-store.learningsciences.com/product_p/bpp150401.htm?utm_source=bfaannouncementemail&utm_medium=ordernowbutton&utm_campaign=bssousa >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> LEARNING SCIENCES INTERNATIONAL >>>> >>>> About Us >> | Research Services< >> http://email.learningsciences.com/XBb0itA0V000JZ8VT037Td0> | Student >> Surveys | >> Publishing | >> Blog | Contact >> Us >>>> [Facebook] >>>> >>>> [Twitter] >>>> >>>> [Google +] >>>> >>>> [Pinterest] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This email was sent to SMAGO@UGA.EDU. If you no >> longer wish to receive these emails you may unsubscribe< >> http://email.learningsciences.com/u/umV000VA8b0B0C03ZiTTJ70> at any time. >>>> 1400 Centrepark Boulevard, Suite 1000 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 >>>> >>> >> >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Mar 17 09:49:03 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 12:49:03 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Teaching in social context Message-ID: My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. ?Today the students were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the attached passage. ?Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not read the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_8113.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 240282 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150317/c796fced/attachment.jpg From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Tue Mar 17 09:57:45 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 16:57:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA home page? In-Reply-To: References: <54F7998F.4080209@mira.net> <54F92A13.1040909@mira.net> <90DE528F-7528-4749-A0B7-9DA34FE38000@berkeley.edu> <54FA4139.3070203@mira.net> <54FA460B.9070605@mira.net> <54FBAFE7.5040906@mira.net> <1425781049593.13275@unm.edu> <54FBD70C.5030001@mira.net> <1425793338779.7070@unm.edu> <1425793404366.6718@unm.edu> <0DE004BA-1D95-47DD-8D35-2BC190C87952@gmail.com> <54FCDFAC.2090903@mira.net> <54FD89AF.3020407@mira.net> <54FD8FB7.204@mira.net> Message-ID: Are we asking about RSS?. Managing feeds though is hard though as people do not often know how to share the feed for the url correctly, but you could publish the feed to the website or just provide a file download others can import. On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 8:29 AM Huw Lloyd wrote: > And the CHAT page on the link is here: > http://wiki.lchc.ucsd.edu/CHAT/WebHome > > On 9 March 2015 at 12:23, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > http://foswiki.org/About.ExampleSites > > > > On 9 March 2015 at 12:19, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > >> OK, so we have one foswiki page on http://wiki.lchc.ucsd.edu/ already. > >> Perhaps we could call for volunteers to create a couple more. > >> A single plot does not a community garden make. > >> > >> > >> Andy > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> > >>> The foswiki software. > >>> > >>> > >>> On 9 March 2015 at 11:53, Andy Blunden wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Well, the "X" in "XMCA" means eXtended, you know. But be that as it > may, > >>>> what software would you recommend for a low maintenance on-line > >>>> community > >>>> CHAT garden? > >>>> > >>>> Andy > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> ------------ > >>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Huw Lloyd wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> I don't think you'd need it to support MCA, Andy. MCA is a different > >>>>> project to that of communicating CHAT concepts, practices and > >>>>> resources. > >>>>> MCA endeavours to do a portion of that, in a particular way. XMCA > >>>>> usually > >>>>> reflects a certain impatience with that, it reflects a need to work > >>>>> over, > >>>>> discuss and critique the knowledge and concepts themselves rather > than > >>>>> papers built out of a few personalised conceptions related to CHAT. > >>>>> > >>>>> MCA helps academics keep their publication count up and it helps to > >>>>> keep > >>>>> CHAT ideas in circulation within academic settings. But I am not > >>>>> convinced > >>>>> that CHAT can be successfully accommodated by educational > institutions > >>>>> as > >>>>> we know them. So, the point is to take an educational project based > on > >>>>> CHAT principles (which can often be taken as a scientific exposition > of > >>>>> common good sense) and build a truer educational resource out of it. > >>>>> That > >>>>> kind of effort necessitates 'gardening' both for the production of > >>>>> resources and for their accommodation. > >>>>> > >>>>> Huw > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 8 March 2015 at 23:47, Andy Blunden wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> How would you implement a "community garden" to support MCA and > xmca, > >>>>>> Huw? > >>>>>> Andy > >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>>> ------------ > >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Huw Lloyd wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Well I wrote a server-side library to achieve a broader version of > >>>>>>> that > >>>>>>> 5 > >>>>>>> years ago. But that is peripheral to what Andy's question is > about. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Huw > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 8 March 2015 at 21:34, Greg Thompson > > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Ha! Huw, I was looking at another, much simpler way of doing a > feed > >>>>>>>> than > >>>>>>>> what Annalisa had shown (and I don't really know how I got there > >>>>>>>> since > >>>>>>>> it > >>>>>>>> doesn't seem to be included in Annalisa's email). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I was looking at a Quora page but I seem to recall that there are > >>>>>>>> other > >>>>>>>> websites that will let you set up a page that will feed from other > >>>>>>>> sites. > >>>>>>>> The idea being that you can set up a page and determine multiple > >>>>>>>> other > >>>>>>>> sites that will feed to it (e.g., the XMCA home page, Andy's Vimeo > >>>>>>>> page, > >>>>>>>> etc.). Seems like there was even a feature that you can set so > that > >>>>>>>> it > >>>>>>>> will > >>>>>>>> regularly search the web and display new content that appears on > the > >>>>>>>> web > >>>>>>>> (e.g., you could set a search term for "cultural historical > activity > >>>>>>>> theory" and there would be a section of the page that would > display > >>>>>>>> everything that is recent on the web that relates to those search > >>>>>>>> terms). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I know there is at least one site out there that can do this but I > >>>>>>>> can't > >>>>>>>> recall what it was called (I learned of it from Mike Wesch who > used > >>>>>>>> it > >>>>>>>> for > >>>>>>>> one of his classes). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Huw or anyone else, do you know what I'm talking about? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> That was what I meant when I said that it would be minimal time to > >>>>>>>> maintain > >>>>>>>> and could be set up by anyone with minimal cost. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> But maybe that was all just a dream... > >>>>>>>> -greg > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Huw Lloyd < > >>>>>>>> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On 8 March 2015 at 18:40, wrote: > >>>>>>>>> [...] > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> .Anyway, it seems like it would be an easy thing to set up. And > >>>>>>>>>> anyone > >>>>>>>>>> could do it, right? > >>>>>>>>>> So why not prototype it and see what works and what doesn't? And > >>>>>>>>>> then > >>>>>>>>>> refine as needed. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> It is easy only to the extent that anyone could use their > >>>>>>>>> spontaneous > >>>>>>>>> notions of what is required. If they are persistent and thorough > >>>>>>>>> they > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> will > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> end up with some conceptions regarding how certain mistakes might > >>>>>>>>> be > >>>>>>>>> avoided. If they reflected on that process with equal > >>>>>>>>> thoroughness, > >>>>>>>>> then > >>>>>>>>> they might end up with some concepts with which to start the work > >>>>>>>>> all > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> over > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> again. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> So, no, it isn't easy. And it isn't actually cheap either. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Huw > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Greg > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2015, at 10:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar < > annalisa@unm.edu> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Hi Andy, > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> My apologies, I did not mean to sound suspicious, I sincerely > >>>>>>>>>>> thought > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> you both had something in mind. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> The site you link to doesn't look like a garden to me. It looks > >>>>>>>>>>> like > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> regular website. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> How about these links below? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> The 1st site might be a drupal site, Drupal has something > called > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> "drupal > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> planet" that will collect feeds, but I'm not sure how it works > >>>>>>>>>> exactly. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> [A feed assembly site might be more like a garden? Then there > is > >>>>>>>>>>> no > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> need > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> for permissions, just program the newsfeed and it sucks in links > >>>>>>>>>> from > >>>>>>>>>> various independent sites? Does wordpress do something like > this?] > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sites below are wordpress sites. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> The 5th is site is using Open Journal. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Not sure what the 6th is, but I couldn't resist to see what a > >>>>>>>>>>> real > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> garden website might look like! :) > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/ > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2015/3/5/ > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> four-knight-fellows-how-community-shapes-creativity/ > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> or > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> https://sweden.se/ > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://sweden.se/society/gender-equality-in-sweden/ > >>>>>>>>>>> or > >>>>>>>>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/ > >>>>>>>>>>> http://ilovetypography.com/2014/10/15/the-first-female- > >>>>>>>>>>> typographer/ > >>>>>>>>>>> or > >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/ > >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.clouds365.com/6-22-14/ > >>>>>>>>>>> or > >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/issue/view/13 > >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/ > hau4.3.002 > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Of course, here is the bona fide garden site: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/ > >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/sustainability/ > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On that happy note... > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Annalisa > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>>>>>> Assistant Professor > >>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology > >>>>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>>>>>> Brigham Young University > >>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Tue Mar 17 10:01:18 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:01:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning could be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the students > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the attached > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not read > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Mar 17 10:13:45 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:13:45 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, but hard to tell. *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having appeared in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series about it. Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the kids get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? mike On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning could > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the students > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > attached > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not read > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Mar 17 10:29:32 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:29:32 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context Message-ID: <8ifjfyt34u644nsi69vw775t.1426613372277@email.android.com> Mike, No tv in the classrooms. ?Broward County has extended the teaching day...the students are in class from 7:30-3:30...then they have remedial reading from 3:30-5:15. ?Technically, the school has been an F school for three years. ?It is due to be shut down this year. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: mike cole
Date:03/17/2015 1:13 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context
Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, but hard to tell. *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having appeared in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series about it. Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the kids get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? mike On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning could > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the students > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > attached > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not read > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Mar 17 10:34:01 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:34:01 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context In-Reply-To: <8ifjfyt34u644nsi69vw775t.1426613372277@email.android.com> References: <8ifjfyt34u644nsi69vw775t.1426613372277@email.android.com> Message-ID: I figured as much. Sounds like Liberian rural education of the 1960's all over again. mike On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > Mike, > > No tv in the classrooms. Broward County has extended the teaching > day...the students are in class from 7:30-3:30...then they have remedial > reading from 3:30-5:15. Technically, the school has been an F school for > three years. It is due to be shut down this year. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: mike cole < > mcole@ucsd.edu>
Date:03/17/2015 1:13 PM (GMT-05:00) >
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context
>
Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. > > Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, but > hard to tell. > > *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having appeared > in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series about > it. > > Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the kids > get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? > > mike > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry > wrote: > > > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning > could > > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of > > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the students > > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > > attached > > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not > read > > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Mar 17 10:34:45 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:34:45 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context Message-ID: About the school, 1. ?The principal and assistant principal are black 2. ?All the teachers are black with the exception of maybe 2 or 3 young white teachers 3. ?It is across the street from a housing project 4. ?Prior to the 1980s...the area was all white and the school was a a science magnet 5. ?Demographically, since the 1980s...the whites moved out and went west, and blacks moved into the neighborhood Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: mike cole
Date:03/17/2015 1:13 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context
Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, but hard to tell. *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having appeared in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series about it. Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the kids get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? mike On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning could > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the students > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > attached > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not read > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Mar 17 10:36:59 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:36:59 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context Message-ID: By the way, I recently was given permission to work with the school...so I am looking to test my mismatch of linguistic structure and social class function hypothesis with my wife's school and three others in the area. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: mike cole
Date:03/17/2015 1:13 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context
Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, but hard to tell. *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having appeared in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series about it. Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the kids get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? mike On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning could > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the students > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > attached > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not read > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Tue Mar 17 10:46:42 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:46:42 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just get back issues of Highlight magazines. That is where many of the stories for tests were licensed from. To be fair, this is a snippet of test prep that could have come from any number of publishers. See this often in the media where a single item is conflated to, "See how bad CCSS, SBAC, and PARCC are?" On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:40 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > By the way, I recently was given permission to work with the school...so I > am looking to test my mismatch of linguistic structure and social class > function hypothesis with my wife's school and three others in the area. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: mike cole < > mcole@ucsd.edu>
Date:03/17/2015 1:13 PM (GMT-05:00) >
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context
>
Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. > > Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, but > hard to tell. > > *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having appeared > in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series about > it. > > Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the kids > get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? > > mike > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry > wrote: > > > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning > could > > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of > > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the students > > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > > attached > > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not > read > > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Mar 17 10:51:49 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 11:51:49 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: but Mike (other Greg here), I think Paul was particularly picking up on the fact that this was part of a "district wide mock test". I thought that this kind of cultural and socioeconomic bias in testing had been chopped at the roots by the myriad of critiques of this sort of thing back in the 80's and 90's? I would have at least thought that the problems with a passage like this would be obvious to test-makers today. Or has that all been forgotten? More evidence that we are back to the beginning? [and btw, I'm perhaps even more baffled by how this got integrated into a 3rd grade test. Seems a bit beyond what my kids could have handled in 3rd grade.] -greg On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 11:13 AM, mike cole wrote: > Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. > > Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, but > hard to tell. > > *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having appeared > in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series about > it. > > Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the kids > get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? > > mike > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry > wrote: > > > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning > could > > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of > > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the students > > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > > attached > > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not > read > > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Tue Mar 17 10:54:36 2015 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:54:36 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Paul and Greg, Have you ever seen this piece by the late Jean Anyon? Even though it was written in 1981, it is strikingly relevant to your present focus on class reproduction and the linguistic structures of "schooling". http://www.appstate.edu/~jacksonay/rcoe/anyon.pdf Robert On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > Just get back issues of Highlight magazines. That is where many of the > stories for tests were licensed from. > > To be fair, this is a snippet of test prep that could have come from any > number of publishers. See this often in the media where a single item is > conflated to, "See how bad CCSS, SBAC, and PARCC are?" > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:40 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> > wrote: > > > By the way, I recently was given permission to work with the school...so > I > > am looking to test my mismatch of linguistic structure and social class > > function hypothesis with my wife's school and three others in the area. > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: mike cole < > > mcole@ucsd.edu>
Date:03/17/2015 1:13 PM (GMT-05:00) > >
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > >
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context
> >
Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. > > > > Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, but > > hard to tell. > > > > *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having appeared > > in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series > about > > it. > > > > Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the kids > > get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? > > > > mike > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry > > wrote: > > > > > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning > > could > > > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of > > > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the > students > > > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > > > attached > > > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not > > read > > > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > President > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 *Some people feel the rain. Others just get wet.* Roger Miller (1972) From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Tue Mar 17 10:57:15 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:57:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context References: Message-ID: The rush to market has lead to many repeated mistakes. In terms of text complexity I agree it is ridiculous. On Tue, Mar 17, 2015, 1:55 PM Greg Thompson wrote: > but Mike (other Greg here), I think Paul was particularly picking up on the > fact that this was part of a "district wide mock test". > > I thought that this kind of cultural and socioeconomic bias in testing had > been chopped at the roots by the myriad of critiques of this sort of thing > back in the 80's and 90's? I would have at least thought that the problems > with a passage like this would be obvious to test-makers today. Or has that > all been forgotten? > > More evidence that we are back to the beginning? > > [and btw, I'm perhaps even more baffled by how this got integrated into a > 3rd grade test. Seems a bit beyond what my kids could have handled in 3rd > grade.] > > -greg > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 11:13 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. > > > > Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, but > > hard to tell. > > > > *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having appeared > > in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series > about > > it. > > > > Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the kids > > get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? > > > > mike > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry > > wrote: > > > > > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning > > could > > > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of > > > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the > students > > > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > > > attached > > > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not > > read > > > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > President > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Mar 17 11:11:57 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:11:57 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context Message-ID: <8etve6ufcl7fxqpe959p5pbi.1426615690929@email.android.com> Greg T. Some of these test questions are absurdly difficult, and "urban" and class bias... i do not like to use "culturally" here. ? Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info? Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities? www.routledge.com/9780415714372 -------- Original message -------- From: Greg Thompson Date: 03/17/2015 1:51 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context but Mike (other Greg here), I think Paul was particularly picking up on the fact that this was part of a "district wide mock test". I thought that this kind of cultural and socioeconomic bias in testing had been chopped at the roots by the myriad of critiques of this sort of thing back in the 80's and 90's? I would have at least thought that the problems with a passage like this would be obvious to test-makers today. Or has that all been forgotten? More evidence that we are back to the beginning? [and btw, I'm perhaps even more baffled by how this got integrated into a 3rd grade test. Seems a bit beyond what my kids could have handled in 3rd grade.] -greg On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 11:13 AM, mike cole wrote: > Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. > > Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, but > hard to tell. > > *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having appeared > in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series about > it. > > Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the kids > get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? > > mike > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry > wrote: > > > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning > could > > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of > > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the students > > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > > attached > > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not > read > > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Mar 17 11:15:34 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:15:34 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context Message-ID: <3enl99co991dqscg51q87557.1426616107476@email.android.com> Yes..robert i have read the article... Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info? Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities? www.routledge.com/9780415714372 -------- Original message -------- From: Robert Lake Date: 03/17/2015 1:54 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context Hi Paul and Greg, Have you ever seen this piece by the late Jean Anyon? Even though it was written in 1981, it is strikingly relevant to your present focus on class reproduction and the linguistic structures of "schooling". http://www.appstate.edu/~jacksonay/rcoe/anyon.pdf Robert On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > Just get back issues of Highlight magazines. That is where many of the > stories for tests were licensed from. > > To be fair, this is a snippet of test prep that could have come from any > number of publishers. See this often in the media where a single item is > conflated to, "See how bad CCSS, SBAC, and PARCC are?" > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:40 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> > wrote: > > > By the way, I recently was given permission to work with the school...so > I > > am looking to test my mismatch of linguistic structure and social class > > function hypothesis with my wife's school and three others in the area. > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: mike cole < > > mcole@ucsd.edu>
Date:03/17/2015 1:13 PM (GMT-05:00) > >
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > >
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context
> >
Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. > > > > Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, but > > hard to tell. > > > > *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having appeared > > in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series > about > > it. > > > > Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the kids > > get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? > > > > mike > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry > > wrote: > > > > > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning > > could > > > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of > > > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the > students > > > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > > > attached > > > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not > > read > > > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > President > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 *Some people feel the rain. Others just get wet.* Roger Miller (1972) From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Mar 17 11:20:46 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:20:46 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context Message-ID: The thing i find interesting is that the students can pick up the lyrics of a song in minutes, but they can not read or pass these tests. ? Are there anyworks that look at the correlation between learning styles, race, and vygotsky's zone of proximal development? Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info? Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities? www.routledge.com/9780415714372 -------- Original message -------- From: mike cole Date: 03/17/2015 1:13 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, but hard to tell. *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having appeared in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series about it. Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the kids get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? mike On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning could > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the students > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > attached > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not read > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Mar 17 11:28:01 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 12:28:01 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: New Book on Brain-Friendly Assessments is Here! In-Reply-To: References: <258917601.-1354547588.1426503217451.JavaMail.root@sjmas01.marketo.org> <5506C7EC.30204@mira.net> Message-ID: Helen, This doesn't quite speak to your question of educational neuroscience, but I find this to be an interesting take on brains and contexts: http://www.amazon.com/The-Encultured-Brain-Introduction-Neuroanthropology/dp/0262017784 The authors of The Encultured Brain, Greg Downey and Daniel Lende, were both trained as anthropologists and thus, compared to your average neuroscientist, they have a little better grasp of the importance of context. At the same time, as compared with your average anthropologist, they appreciate the importance of understanding the biological brain. -greg On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 5:31 AM, Helen Harper wrote: > Thank you very much for this article Mike. You bring such clarity to this > historical perspective. I laughed when I clicked on the youtube link! > (thinking it was going to be some neuroscience thing). > > Your discussion of Bereiter and Engelmann is especially useful and timely > for me to ponder, given that the Australian government is in the process of > spending millions getting remote schools to do Direct Instruction (or some > form of it anyway). > > i was also wondering, still on the 'brain-friendly' topic, if anyone has > any writing specifically about 'brain-based learning' - and whether any of > those 'brain-based' people ever have anything to say about learning in a > social context? I want to know, does 'brain-based learning' represent an > ideology in which learning is constructed as something that takes place > entirely inside the brain of the individual, or have I missed something? > > Helen > > > > On 17 Mar 2015, at 6:15 am, mike cole wrote: > > > > Some relevant material here, Helen. Peter probably has a bunch more. > > > > I am afraid that back to the future is the way things are going. Very > nice > > when you like that past as your future, not so nice when you don't...... > > makes it seems like you want to ask, a la Pete Seeger and "where have all > > the flowers gone," "when will they ever learn." > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y2SIIeqy34 > > > > mike > > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 5:26 AM, Helen Harper > > wrote: > > > >> Speaking of which, can anyone point me to any recent sociocultural or > >> cultural-historical-informed critiques of the current culture-free > trends > >> in educational neuroscience? I would be much obliged. > >> > >> Helen > >> > >> > >>> On 16 Mar 2015, at 9:39 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > >>> > >>> I think I'll send my brain along to one of these sessions! > >>> Andy > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>> > >>> > >>> Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > >>>> The latest in culture-free educational solutions?..p > >>>> > >>>> From: Learning Sciences International [mailto: > >> lsiinfo@learningsciences.com] > >>>> Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 6:54 AM > >>>> To: Peter Smagorinsky > >>>> Subject: New Book on Brain-Friendly Assessments is Here! > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> FORWARD THIS EMAIL< > >> http://email.learningsciences.com/v/CAi00q0ab0ZT0VBV3T07J08> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> [Learning Sciences International] > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> NOW AVAILABLE! > >>>> > >>>> Effective assessments based on neuroscience. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Looking to design brain-friendly assessments that deepen students? > >> understanding? Want to fairly assess all students, including > >> English-language learners and those who are homeschooled? > >>>> > >>>> In Brain-Friendly Assessments< > >> http://email.learningsciences.com/kT0rb0V00Zi03ABTV70b80J>, by > >> bestselling author David A. Sousa empowers teachers with research > findings > >> from educational neuroscience to help determine what, who, where, and > how > >> to assess?and it?s now available! > >>>> > >>>> ORDER NOW > >> and you can have a copy in your hands this week! > >>>> > >>>> ?A powerful book, Brain-Friendly Assessments has informed my > >> instruction as well as assessment. I cannot overstate how appreciative > I am > >> of the way the author distilled the essence of assessment into > >> student-centered, sensible best practices.? > >>>> > >>>> ?Alana Margeson, 2012 Maine Teacher of the Year > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Brain-Friendly > >>>> Assessments > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> What They Are and How to Use Them > >>>> [Brain-Friendly Assessments]< > >> > http://education-store.learningsciences.com/product_p/bpp150401.htm?utm_source=bfaannouncementemail&utm_medium=sidebarimagelink&utm_campaign=bssousa > >>> > >>>> > >>>> [ORDER NOW]< > >> > http://education-store.learningsciences.com/product_p/bpp150401.htm?utm_source=bfaannouncementemail&utm_medium=ordernowbutton&utm_campaign=bssousa > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> LEARNING SCIENCES INTERNATIONAL > >>>> > >>>> About Us > >> | Research Services< > >> http://email.learningsciences.com/XBb0itA0V000JZ8VT037Td0> | Student > >> Surveys | > >> Publishing | > >> Blog | > Contact > >> Us > >>>> [Facebook] > >>>> > >>>> [Twitter] > >>>> > >>>> [Google +] > >>>> > >>>> [Pinterest] > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> This email was sent to SMAGO@UGA.EDU. 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Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Mar 17 11:38:52 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 12:38:52 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paul, I have a terrible tendency to oversimplify Vygotsky/CHAT but here is my summary of how these ideas might be relevant to your question: What are the meaning-full contexts of learning of each of these activities. E.g., what are the meaning-full contexts of learning the lyrics of a song? And how is the knowledge of the lyrics of a song performed? What kinds of social consequences come with being able to perform this knowledge? How does that compare to the contexts of learning to pass a test? And how is test knowledge performed? What kinds of consequences come with being able to perform test knowledge? Or put more simply: How might we describe each of these activities? Just my 2/25ths of a quarter. Maybe less... -greg On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > The thing i find interesting is that the students can pick up the lyrics > of a song in minutes, but they can not read or pass these tests. > > Are there anyworks that look at the correlation between learning styles, > race, and vygotsky's zone of proximal development? > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: mike cole > Date: 03/17/2015 1:13 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context > > Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. > > Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, but > hard to tell. > > *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having appeared > in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series about > it. > > Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the kids > get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? > > mike > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry > wrote: > > > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning > could > > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of > > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the students > > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > > attached > > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not > read > > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Mar 17 11:52:59 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:52:59 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context Message-ID: I got you greg...? Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson
Date:03/17/2015 2:38 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context
Paul, I have a terrible tendency to oversimplify Vygotsky/CHAT but here is my summary of how these ideas might be relevant to your question: What are the meaning-full contexts of learning of each of these activities. E.g., what are the meaning-full contexts of learning the lyrics of a song? And how is the knowledge of the lyrics of a song performed? What kinds of social consequences come with being able to perform this knowledge? How does that compare to the contexts of learning to pass a test? And how is test knowledge performed? What kinds of consequences come with being able to perform test knowledge? Or put more simply: How might we describe each of these activities? Just my 2/25ths of a quarter. Maybe less... -greg On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > The thing i find interesting is that the students can pick up the lyrics > of a song in minutes, but they can not read or pass these tests. > > Are there anyworks that look at the correlation between learning styles, > race, and vygotsky's zone of proximal development? > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: mike cole > Date: 03/17/2015 1:13 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context > > Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. > > Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, but > hard to tell. > > *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having appeared > in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series about > it. > > Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the kids > get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? > > mike > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry > wrote: > > > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning > could > > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of > > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the students > > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > > attached > > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not > read > > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Mar 17 12:13:41 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 12:13:41 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sure looks and feels like the late 1960's, culture of poverty deja vu-ing all over again. Goes right along with re-segregation of our schools, overt violence against people of color, and biological "explanations" that threaten to become self-fulfilling prophecies. mike On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > but Mike (other Greg here), I think Paul was particularly picking up on the > fact that this was part of a "district wide mock test". > > I thought that this kind of cultural and socioeconomic bias in testing had > been chopped at the roots by the myriad of critiques of this sort of thing > back in the 80's and 90's? I would have at least thought that the problems > with a passage like this would be obvious to test-makers today. Or has that > all been forgotten? > > More evidence that we are back to the beginning? > > [and btw, I'm perhaps even more baffled by how this got integrated into a > 3rd grade test. Seems a bit beyond what my kids could have handled in 3rd > grade.] > > -greg > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 11:13 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. > > > > Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, but > > hard to tell. > > > > *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having appeared > > in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series > about > > it. > > > > Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the kids > > get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? > > > > mike > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry > > wrote: > > > > > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning > > could > > > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of > > > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the > students > > > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > > > attached > > > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not > > read > > > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > President > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Mar 17 12:20:26 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:20:26 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context Message-ID: <0yt0o6mtsddld52a1s2w7puj.1426620026024@email.android.com> Yes it is Mike... Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: mike cole
Date:03/17/2015 3:13 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context
Sure looks and feels like the late 1960's, culture of poverty deja vu-ing all over again. Goes right along with re-segregation of our schools, overt violence against people of color, and biological "explanations" that threaten to become self-fulfilling prophecies. mike On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > but Mike (other Greg here), I think Paul was particularly picking up on the > fact that this was part of a "district wide mock test". > > I thought that this kind of cultural and socioeconomic bias in testing had > been chopped at the roots by the myriad of critiques of this sort of thing > back in the 80's and 90's? I would have at least thought that the problems > with a passage like this would be obvious to test-makers today. Or has that > all been forgotten? > > More evidence that we are back to the beginning? > > [and btw, I'm perhaps even more baffled by how this got integrated into a > 3rd grade test. Seems a bit beyond what my kids could have handled in 3rd > grade.] > > -greg > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 11:13 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. > > > > Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, but > > hard to tell. > > > > *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having appeared > > in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series > about > > it. > > > > Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the kids > > get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? > > > > mike > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry > > wrote: > > > > > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning > > could > > > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of > > > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the > students > > > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > > > attached > > > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not > > read > > > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > President > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Mar 17 12:23:09 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:23:09 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: @mike - sadness. On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:13 PM, mike cole wrote: > Sure looks and feels like the late 1960's, culture of poverty deja vu-ing > all over again. > Goes right along with re-segregation of our schools, overt violence against > people of color, and biological "explanations" that threaten to become > self-fulfilling prophecies. > mike > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > > but Mike (other Greg here), I think Paul was particularly picking up on > the > > fact that this was part of a "district wide mock test". > > > > I thought that this kind of cultural and socioeconomic bias in testing > had > > been chopped at the roots by the myriad of critiques of this sort of > thing > > back in the 80's and 90's? I would have at least thought that the > problems > > with a passage like this would be obvious to test-makers today. Or has > that > > all been forgotten? > > > > More evidence that we are back to the beginning? > > > > [and btw, I'm perhaps even more baffled by how this got integrated into a > > 3rd grade test. Seems a bit beyond what my kids could have handled in 3rd > > grade.] > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 11:13 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. > > > > > > Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, > but > > > hard to tell. > > > > > > *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having > appeared > > > in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series > > about > > > it. > > > > > > Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the > kids > > > get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? > > > > > > mike > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning > > > could > > > > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few > of > > > > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the > > students > > > > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > > > > attached > > > > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not > > > read > > > > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > > President > > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Mar 17 12:26:08 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 12:26:08 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Tenure Track Position In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Petra Hauf Date: Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:22 PM Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Tenure Track Position To: "cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org" The *Department of Psychology* at *St. Francis Xavier University* is seeking applications for a tenure-track appointment at the rank of Assistant Professor. Candidates will have demonstrated ability and potential for excellence in teaching and research, including the potential to attract external funding (NSERC, SSHRC, CIHR). A completed Ph.D. and an active research program are requirements for this position. While the Department anticipates growth in programs related to i) *Lifespan Development* and ii) *Health Studies*, and encourages applications from researchers in these broad areas, strong candidates in other areas are also encouraged to apply. A summary of teaching experience, a statement of teaching philosophy and interests, an outline of current and future research plans, and a CV should accompany the letter of application. This position is subject to final budgetary approval. Consideration of applications will begin April 30, 2015 and continue until the position is filled. A curriculum vitae, letter of application, teaching and research summaries, and three letters of reference should be sent to: Dr. Tara Callaghan, Chair, Department of Psychology, *St. Francis Xavier University*, PO Box 5000, Antigonish, N.S., B2G 2W5. Phone (902) 867-3926; Fax (902) 867-5189; e-mail: tcallagh@stfx.ca. *All qualified candidates, especially women and members of minority groups, are encouraged to apply; however, in accordance with Canadian Immigration requirements, Canadian citizens and permanent residents will be given priority. St. Francis Xavier University is committed to the principle of employment equity.* ------------------------------------ Dr. Petra Hauf Canada Research Chair in Cognitive Development Professor of Psychology St. Francis Xavier University P.O. Box 5000 Antigonish, Nova Scotia Canada, B2G 2W5 Email: phauf@stfx.ca _______________________________________________ To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) To subscribe or unsubscribe from the listserv, visit: http://lists.cogdevsoc.org/listinfo.cgi/cogdevsoc-cogdevsoc.org -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Logo[3][1].png Type: image/png Size: 11102 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150317/131f74d7/attachment.png From glassman.13@osu.edu Tue Mar 17 12:29:29 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 19:29:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A49E4F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> I think the difference is that this time there is much more push back against this type of thing. Those with control of the megaphone are bringing back the same old hits, but perhaps people aren't buying in to them that much. The student and parent revolt against standardized testing. The #Blacklivesmatter. The mayoral election in Chicago. We certainly do live in interesting times. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 3:23 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context @mike - sadness. On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:13 PM, mike cole wrote: > Sure looks and feels like the late 1960's, culture of poverty deja > vu-ing all over again. > Goes right along with re-segregation of our schools, overt violence > against people of color, and biological "explanations" that threaten > to become self-fulfilling prophecies. > mike > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Greg Thompson > > > wrote: > > > but Mike (other Greg here), I think Paul was particularly picking up > > on > the > > fact that this was part of a "district wide mock test". > > > > I thought that this kind of cultural and socioeconomic bias in > > testing > had > > been chopped at the roots by the myriad of critiques of this sort of > thing > > back in the 80's and 90's? I would have at least thought that the > problems > > with a passage like this would be obvious to test-makers today. Or > > has > that > > all been forgotten? > > > > More evidence that we are back to the beginning? > > > > [and btw, I'm perhaps even more baffled by how this got integrated > > into a 3rd grade test. Seems a bit beyond what my kids could have > > handled in 3rd grade.] > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 11:13 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. > > > > > > Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up > > > on, > but > > > hard to tell. > > > > > > *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having > appeared > > > in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV > > > series > > about > > > it. > > > > > > Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so > > > the > kids > > > get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? > > > > > > mike > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how > > > > meaning > > > could > > > > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which > > > > few > of > > > > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the > > students > > > > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across > > > > > the > > > > attached > > > > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they > > > > > can not > > > read > > > > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > > President > > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with > > > an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Mar 17 12:39:06 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:39:06 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context Message-ID: history repeats itself, the first as tragedy, then as farce...Karl marx Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, Michael"
Date:03/17/2015 3:29 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context
I think the difference is that this time there is much more push back against this type of thing. Those with control of the megaphone are bringing back the same old hits, but perhaps people aren't buying in to them that much. The student and parent revolt against standardized testing. The #Blacklivesmatter. The mayoral election in Chicago. We certainly do live in interesting times. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 3:23 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context @mike - sadness. On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:13 PM, mike cole wrote: > Sure looks and feels like the late 1960's, culture of poverty deja > vu-ing all over again. > Goes right along with re-segregation of our schools, overt violence > against people of color, and biological "explanations" that threaten > to become self-fulfilling prophecies. > mike > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Greg Thompson > > > wrote: > > > but Mike (other Greg here), I think Paul was particularly picking up > > on > the > > fact that this was part of a "district wide mock test". > > > > I thought that this kind of cultural and socioeconomic bias in > > testing > had > > been chopped at the roots by the myriad of critiques of this sort of > thing > > back in the 80's and 90's? I would have at least thought that the > problems > > with a passage like this would be obvious to test-makers today. Or > > has > that > > all been forgotten? > > > > More evidence that we are back to the beginning? > > > > [and btw, I'm perhaps even more baffled by how this got integrated > > into a 3rd grade test. Seems a bit beyond what my kids could have > > handled in 3rd grade.] > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 11:13 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. > > > > > > Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up > > > on, > but > > > hard to tell. > > > > > > *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having > appeared > > > in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV > > > series > > about > > > it. > > > > > > Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so > > > the > kids > > > get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? > > > > > > mike > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how > > > > meaning > > > could > > > > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which > > > > few > of > > > > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the > > students > > > > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across > > > > > the > > > > attached > > > > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they > > > > > can not > > > read > > > > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > > President > > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with > > > an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Mar 17 12:49:55 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 19:49:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paul, Are you contemplating posing a similarly structured test using different cultural referents? Huw On 17 March 2015 at 17:36, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > By the way, I recently was given permission to work with the school...so I > am looking to test my mismatch of linguistic structure and social class > function hypothesis with my wife's school and three others in the area. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: mike cole < > mcole@ucsd.edu>
Date:03/17/2015 1:13 PM (GMT-05:00) >
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context
>
Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. > > Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, but > hard to tell. > > *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having appeared > in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series about > it. > > Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the kids > get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? > > mike > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry > wrote: > > > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning > could > > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of > > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the students > > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > > attached > > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not > read > > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Mar 17 13:07:27 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 16:07:27 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context Message-ID: Huw, No, what we are doing is teaching reading via language arts and vocabulary development. ?The district i believe has adopted the parcc for their general assessment. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info? Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities? www.routledge.com/9780415714372 -------- Original message -------- From: Huw Lloyd Date: 03/17/2015 3:49 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context Paul, Are you contemplating posing a similarly structured test using different cultural referents? Huw On 17 March 2015 at 17:36, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > By the way, I recently was given permission to work with the school...so I > am looking to test my mismatch of linguistic structure and social class > function hypothesis with my wife's school and three others in the area. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: mike cole < > mcole@ucsd.edu>
Date:03/17/2015 1:13 PM (GMT-05:00) >
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context
>
Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. > > Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up on, but > hard to tell. > > *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having appeared > in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV series about > it. > > Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so the kids > get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? > > mike > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry > wrote: > > > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how meaning > could > > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which few of > > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the students > > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across the > > attached > > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they can not > read > > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From lachnm@rpi.edu Tue Mar 17 13:25:29 2015 From: lachnm@rpi.edu (lachnm) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 16:25:29 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A49E4F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A49E4F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <50e18c9fd5370928fdd7966fcbbd0d81@rpi.edu> The contents of standardized tests, and associated curricula, are drenched with the social and cultural politics of the test makers ("they" or "them" as the teachers and students I work with call them) who work to make broad questions that reach across cultural difference - a "culture of no-culture" that is really just the reproduction of white-patriarchy. However, in the case of the students' testing experience below this seems to have backfired. What a wonderful negotiated reading! The reading of "cursing" highlights the disconnectedness of test content from students own language practices. I have been impressed by the work of Eric Gutstein (http://www.radicalmath.org/docs/1997JRME.pdf), ethnomathematicians (http://csdt.rpi.edu/teaching/publications.html), and others who seek to draw on students' community resources and practices to better in-school education and challenge the culture of no-culture, while also helping teachers and students confront economic and political injustices that their communities face. What the Chicago Teachers Union continues to show us is that for education to be respected and relevant to students, teachers need to draw on the resources situated in students' communities and need to stand with working-class parents in their fights for higher wages, social services, and neighborhood employment. peace, Michael Lachney On 2015-03-17 15:29, Glassman, Michael wrote: > I think the difference is that this time there is much more push back > against this type of thing. Those with control of the megaphone are > bringing back the same old hits, but perhaps people aren't buying in > to them that much. The student and parent revolt against standardized > testing. The #Blacklivesmatter. The mayoral election in Chicago. > > We certainly do live in interesting times. > > Michael > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 3:23 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context > > @mike - sadness. > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:13 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Sure looks and feels like the late 1960's, culture of poverty deja >> vu-ing all over again. >> Goes right along with re-segregation of our schools, overt violence >> against people of color, and biological "explanations" that threaten >> to become self-fulfilling prophecies. >> mike >> >> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Greg Thompson >> > > >> wrote: >> >> > but Mike (other Greg here), I think Paul was particularly picking up >> > on >> the >> > fact that this was part of a "district wide mock test". >> > >> > I thought that this kind of cultural and socioeconomic bias in >> > testing >> had >> > been chopped at the roots by the myriad of critiques of this sort of >> thing >> > back in the 80's and 90's? I would have at least thought that the >> problems >> > with a passage like this would be obvious to test-makers today. Or >> > has >> that >> > all been forgotten? >> > >> > More evidence that we are back to the beginning? >> > >> > [and btw, I'm perhaps even more baffled by how this got integrated >> > into a 3rd grade test. Seems a bit beyond what my kids could have >> > handled in 3rd grade.] >> > >> > -greg >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 11:13 AM, mike cole wrote: >> > >> > > Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. >> > > >> > > Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up >> > > on, >> but >> > > hard to tell. >> > > >> > > *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having >> appeared >> > > in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV >> > > series >> > about >> > > it. >> > > >> > > Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so >> > > the >> kids >> > > get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? >> > > >> > > mike >> > > >> > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry >> > > > > >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how >> > > > meaning >> > > could >> > > > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which >> > > > few >> of >> > > > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. >> > > > >> > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >> > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the >> > students >> > > > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across >> > > > > the >> > > > attached >> > > > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they >> > > > > can not >> > > read >> > > > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> > > > > President >> > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> > > > > www.mocombeian.com >> > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with >> > > an >> > object >> > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> > Assistant Professor >> > Department of Anthropology >> > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> > Brigham Young University >> > Provo, UT 84602 >> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Mar 17 13:57:08 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:57:08 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context In-Reply-To: <50e18c9fd5370928fdd7966fcbbd0d81@rpi.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A49E4F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <50e18c9fd5370928fdd7966fcbbd0d81@rpi.edu> Message-ID: <38A0710A-6DFC-4FD3-A4E0-A2582A009A70@gmail.com> Luis Moll at University of Arizona has developed the idea of teaching and learning based on ?Funds of Knowledge?, very close, I think, to what Michael terms ?the resources situated in students? communities": http://www.learnnc.org/lp/pages/939 http://edsource.org/wp-content/uploads/Luis_Moll_Hidden_Family_Resources.pdf Henry > On Mar 17, 2015, at 2:25 PM, lachnm wrote: > > The contents of standardized tests, and associated curricula, are drenched with the social and cultural politics of the test makers ("they" or "them" as the teachers and students I work with call them) who work to make broad questions that reach across cultural difference - a "culture of no-culture" that is really just the reproduction of white-patriarchy. > > However, in the case of the students' testing experience below this seems to have backfired. What a wonderful negotiated reading! The reading of "cursing" highlights the disconnectedness of test content from students own language practices. > > I have been impressed by the work of Eric Gutstein (http://www.radicalmath.org/docs/1997JRME.pdf), ethnomathematicians (http://csdt.rpi.edu/teaching/publications.html), and others who seek to draw on students' community resources and practices to better in-school education and challenge the culture of no-culture, while also helping teachers and students confront economic and political injustices that their communities face. > > What the Chicago Teachers Union continues to show us is that for education to be respected and relevant to students, teachers need to draw on the resources situated in students' communities and need to stand with working-class parents in their fights for higher wages, social services, and neighborhood employment. > > peace, > Michael Lachney > > > > > On 2015-03-17 15:29, Glassman, Michael wrote: >> I think the difference is that this time there is much more push back >> against this type of thing. Those with control of the megaphone are >> bringing back the same old hits, but perhaps people aren't buying in >> to them that much. The student and parent revolt against standardized >> testing. The #Blacklivesmatter. The mayoral election in Chicago. >> We certainly do live in interesting times. >> Michael >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson >> Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 3:23 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context >> @mike - sadness. >> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:13 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> Sure looks and feels like the late 1960's, culture of poverty deja >>> vu-ing all over again. >>> Goes right along with re-segregation of our schools, overt violence >>> against people of color, and biological "explanations" that threaten >>> to become self-fulfilling prophecies. >>> mike >>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Greg Thompson >>> >> > >>> wrote: >>> > but Mike (other Greg here), I think Paul was particularly picking up >>> > on >>> the >>> > fact that this was part of a "district wide mock test". >>> > >>> > I thought that this kind of cultural and socioeconomic bias in >>> > testing >>> had >>> > been chopped at the roots by the myriad of critiques of this sort of >>> thing >>> > back in the 80's and 90's? I would have at least thought that the >>> problems >>> > with a passage like this would be obvious to test-makers today. Or >>> > has >>> that >>> > all been forgotten? >>> > >>> > More evidence that we are back to the beginning? >>> > >>> > [and btw, I'm perhaps even more baffled by how this got integrated >>> > into a 3rd grade test. Seems a bit beyond what my kids could have >>> > handled in 3rd grade.] >>> > >>> > -greg >>> > >>> > >>> > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 11:13 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> > >>> > > Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. >>> > > >>> > > Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up >>> > > on, >>> but >>> > > hard to tell. >>> > > >>> > > *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having >>> appeared >>> > > in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV >>> > > series >>> > about >>> > > it. >>> > > >>> > > Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so >>> > > the >>> kids >>> > > get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? >>> > > >>> > > mike >>> > > >>> > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry >>> > > >> > >>> > > wrote: >>> > > >>> > > > A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how >>> > > > meaning >>> > > could >>> > > > be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which >>> > > > few >>> of >>> > > > your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. >>> > > > >>> > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >>> > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: >>> > > > >>> > > > > My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the >>> > students >>> > > > > were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across >>> > > > > the >>> > > > attached >>> > > > > passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they >>> > > > > can not >>> > > read >>> > > > > the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >>> > > > > President >>> > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >>> > > > > www.mocombeian.com >>> > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com >>> > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with >>> > > an >>> > object >>> > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> > Assistant Professor >>> > Department of Anthropology >>> > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> > Brigham Young University >>> > Provo, UT 84602 >>> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> > >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Mar 17 13:59:12 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:59:12 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62BDB71E-E704-4547-9BA8-D2735C8C629C@gmail.com> Also: History doesn?t repeat itself, but it does rhyme. Mark Twain > On Mar 17, 2015, at 1:39 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > > history repeats itself, the first as tragedy, then as farce...Karl marx > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, Michael"
Date:03/17/2015 3:29 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context
>
I think the difference is that this time there is much more push back against this type of thing. Those with control of the megaphone are bringing back the same old hits, but perhaps people aren't buying in to them that much. The student and parent revolt against standardized testing. The #Blacklivesmatter. The mayoral election in Chicago. > > We certainly do live in interesting times. > > Michael > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 3:23 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context > > @mike - sadness. > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:13 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Sure looks and feels like the late 1960's, culture of poverty deja >> vu-ing all over again. >> Goes right along with re-segregation of our schools, overt violence >> against people of color, and biological "explanations" that threaten >> to become self-fulfilling prophecies. >> mike >> >> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Greg Thompson >> >> >> wrote: >> >>> but Mike (other Greg here), I think Paul was particularly picking up >>> on >> the >>> fact that this was part of a "district wide mock test". >>> >>> I thought that this kind of cultural and socioeconomic bias in >>> testing >> had >>> been chopped at the roots by the myriad of critiques of this sort of >> thing >>> back in the 80's and 90's? I would have at least thought that the >> problems >>> with a passage like this would be obvious to test-makers today. Or >>> has >> that >>> all been forgotten? >>> >>> More evidence that we are back to the beginning? >>> >>> [and btw, I'm perhaps even more baffled by how this got integrated >>> into a 3rd grade test. Seems a bit beyond what my kids could have >>> handled in 3rd grade.] >>> >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 11:13 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. >>>> >>>> Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up >>>> on, >> but >>>> hard to tell. >>>> >>>> *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having >> appeared >>>> in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV >>>> series >>> about >>>> it. >>>> >>>> Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so >>>> the >> kids >>>> get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry >>>> >> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how >>>>> meaning >>>> could >>>>> be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which >>>>> few >> of >>>>> your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >>>>> pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the >>> students >>>>>> were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across >>>>>> the >>>>> attached >>>>>> passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they >>>>>> can not >>>> read >>>>>> the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >>>>>> President >>>>>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >>>>>> www.mocombeian.com >>>>>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >>>>>> www.paulcmocombe.info >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with >>>> an >>> object >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Mar 17 17:12:34 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:12:34 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context In-Reply-To: <62BDB71E-E704-4547-9BA8-D2735C8C629C@gmail.com> References: <62BDB71E-E704-4547-9BA8-D2735C8C629C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Darn good thing it rhymes, Henry, 'cause it doesn't have a whole lot of reason! mike On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:59 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Also: > History doesn?t repeat itself, but it does rhyme. > Mark Twain > > > On Mar 17, 2015, at 1:39 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > history repeats itself, the first as tragedy, then as farce...Karl marx > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, > Michael"
Date:03/17/2015 3:29 PM > (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in > social context
> >
I think the difference is that this time there is much more push > back against this type of thing. Those with control of the megaphone are > bringing back the same old hits, but perhaps people aren't buying in to > them that much. The student and parent revolt against standardized > testing. The #Blacklivesmatter. The mayoral election in Chicago. > > > > We certainly do live in interesting times. > > > > Michael > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > > Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 3:23 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context > > > > @mike - sadness. > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:13 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> Sure looks and feels like the late 1960's, culture of poverty deja > >> vu-ing all over again. > >> Goes right along with re-segregation of our schools, overt violence > >> against people of color, and biological "explanations" that threaten > >> to become self-fulfilling prophecies. > >> mike > >> > >> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Greg Thompson > >> >>> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> but Mike (other Greg here), I think Paul was particularly picking up > >>> on > >> the > >>> fact that this was part of a "district wide mock test". > >>> > >>> I thought that this kind of cultural and socioeconomic bias in > >>> testing > >> had > >>> been chopped at the roots by the myriad of critiques of this sort of > >> thing > >>> back in the 80's and 90's? I would have at least thought that the > >> problems > >>> with a passage like this would be obvious to test-makers today. Or > >>> has > >> that > >>> all been forgotten? > >>> > >>> More evidence that we are back to the beginning? > >>> > >>> [and btw, I'm perhaps even more baffled by how this got integrated > >>> into a 3rd grade test. Seems a bit beyond what my kids could have > >>> handled in 3rd grade.] > >>> > >>> -greg > >>> > >>> > >>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 11:13 AM, mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>>> Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. > >>>> > >>>> Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up > >>>> on, > >> but > >>>> hard to tell. > >>>> > >>>> *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having > >> appeared > >>>> in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV > >>>> series > >>> about > >>>> it. > >>>> > >>>> Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so > >>>> the > >> kids > >>>> get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? > >>>> > >>>> mike > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry > >>>> >>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how > >>>>> meaning > >>>> could > >>>>> be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which > >>>>> few > >> of > >>>>> your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. > >>>>> > >>>>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > >>>>> pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the > >>> students > >>>>>> were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across > >>>>>> the > >>>>> attached > >>>>>> passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they > >>>>>> can not > >>>> read > >>>>>> the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > >>>>>> President > >>>>>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > >>>>>> www.mocombeian.com > >>>>>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com > >>>>>> www.paulcmocombe.info > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with > >>>> an > >>> object > >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>> Assistant Professor > >>> Department of Anthropology > >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>> Brigham Young University > >>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Tue Mar 17 18:11:42 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 01:11:42 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <1794094062.7969537.1426407406883.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CAFBC@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <887B70AE-CEC7-48A2-9DCF-B9A57431323B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Some one questioned if computers made a difference: I decided to have a little fun with my response: http://jgregorymcverry.com/computers-versus-printing-press/ On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 5:43 PM David Kellogg wrote: > Yes, that was Leonard Bernstein's theory--that "mmm" was the first word in > every language, and also the first musical note. Vygotsky prefers Lear: > "When we are born we cry that we are come/To this great stage of fools." > And the girl in the advertisement for lunch boxes was certainly agreeing > with Vygotsky: "ing! ing!" is how Koreans transcribe the sound of weeping. > > Last night in my class on "Teaching Young Learners" we got to discussing > what Vygotsky means when he distinguishes so starkly between the naming > function and the signifying function of language: how exactly are they > different? One way to look at it is to say that naming is sticking labels > on physical objects--that is why children who do this are convinced that > names are part of the object itself, the way that a label is part of a milk > carton and the carton is what gives shape to the milk within. Signifying, > on the other hand is just like naming, but the named "object" is purely > imaginary--something like a mathematical set--a concept. > > The problem is that putting it this way makes it all about the object that > is being named or signified, and I'm pretty sure that's not what Vygotsky > is thinking about--or anyway it's not the only thing that he's thinking > about. Both Piaget and Vygotsky take as their starting point the > interesting fact that the child rejects the idea of calling the sun "moon" > and the moon "sun", and claims that the sort of a cow that you can call > "dog" will have little horns and give a little milk (not dog milk but cow > milk). > > But as usual from the same fact they draw totally different conclusions. > Piaget's conclusion is that the child will eventually have this illusion > crushed and come to terms with the meaninglessness of the connection > between sign and signifier on this great stage of fools. Vygotsky's > conclusion is that there really IS a set of words of which this true! > > First of all, we have words like "blackbird" and "sidewalk" where an > important, if epiphenomenal trait of the object really is encoded in the > word itself. Of course, you can complain that there isn't anything "black" > in the word black, but that doesn't change the fact that if you want to go > around call bluebirds "blackbirds" and sidewalks "center-runs" then you are > going to have to make major changes to more than one word in your language > system. And, as Vygotsky demonstrates, if you go back in the etymology of > almost ANY word you will find something like a blackbird or a > sidewalk--even the word "cabbage" means "head" in its Latin root. > > Secondly, as Rod points out, there is onomatopoiea and what we in Korean > call "ouiseongeo", or words which are intended to imitate the sounds made > by actions and thereby signify the action (e.g. "crash", "smash", "bash", > "mash", etc.). Here the sound of the word is surely part of the meaning, > and here too the child is right when he/she insists on the > non-interchangeability of words. Both "shhhhhh" and "Ker-splash!" have the > sound /sh/ in them, but that doesn't make them interchangeable. > > So Vygotsky turns the whole question rather on its head: where and when > does the interchangeability of terms arise? When do we learn to look at > language and laugh that we are come to this great stage of tomfoolery? > > Perhaps here: > > > http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/paintings/rene-magritte- > ceci-nest-pas-une-pomme-5650359-details.aspx > > > Magritte's painting is not an apple or even part of an apple; it's a > painting of an apple. In the same way, if a child plays "war", the child is > not a soldier but a "painting" of a soldier. It's this negative > relationship between the sign and the thing which is abstractly everywhere > the same, and everywhere abstractly interchangeable: all words are NOT the > things that they signify. > > There's a very beautiful and bloody children's story in Korea called "Sun > and Moon" about two children with those names. They are orphaned by a > tiger, but they take revenge on the tiger by climbing up ropes to heaven, > offering a rotten rope to the tiger, who tries to follow and kills himself. > Once in heaven, the girl named Moon at first insists on shining all day and > the older brother named Sun shines at night only. But after the first day > on her new job, Moon decides that she is shy--and she would rather have her > older brother's job. So they switch. After all, it's just role play. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > ... > > > > On 17 March 2015 at 01:39, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > Hello All, > > The following has occurred to me as I follow this thread: > > -Perhaps it would be useful to think of computers as on the > > environmental-literacy side of literacy, as contrasted with a more > intimate > > book-in-hand side of literacy. Vera John-Steiner, in her Notebooks of the > > Mind, discusses how writers choose their tools: Some write long hand; > > others type. The mix of technologies seem to affect the reading/writing > > process in very deep ways. I wonder if this sheds any light on the tool > vs. > > sign distinction elaborated in Andy?s Academia article on tool vs. sign. > > -No one, as far as I remember, has discussed on this web the differences > > between logographic (Chinsese) and alphabetic writing systems. Again, > this > > seems to me to be a continuum, given the capacity, on the one hand, of > > Chinese literacy to write phonetically and the flood, on the other hand, > of > > icons in alphabet-based writing (take the McDonald arches). > > -Rod?s post reminds me of a long-standing problem I have with > l?Arbitraire > > du Signe ?law? that there is no necessary connection between the > > phonological pole and the semantic pole, with the relatively unusual > > exception of onomatopeia or the MMMMM/YUCK distinction made by little > > gourmands. The best counter evidence, it seems to me, are the choices we > > make in how much our writing in English draws on vocabulary of > Anglo-Saxon > > origin and how much of Latinate origin. > > I?m not sure if I am hinting at a wider issue of how much culture > reflects > > differences BETWEEN cultures and how much reflects the way in which the > > mixes of technology of each culture point towards universal tendencies of > > seeking balance, some sort of homeostasis. Some may think I?ve bit off > more > > than I can chew. Yuck or Yum? > > Henry > > > > > > > On Mar 16, 2015, at 2:59 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > > > I wish I could remember where I read that the first 'words' are > > variations of 'yum' or 'mmm' for approval and 'yuk' for disgust - > > exaggerated vocalisations oral 'taking in' - ingesting what is > pleasurable > > and spitting out, ejecting what is unpalateable. So is 'ing' Chinese for > > 'mmm'? > > > > > > Rod > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg > > > Sent: 16 March 2015 08:28 > > > To: Haydi Zulfei; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference > > > > > > This morning I went out shopping and noticed a billboard selling > > lunchboxes. It featured a young girl whose boyfriend was obviously off > > doing military service (two and half years of rigorously > institutionalized > > bullying and beatings); she was dressed up in a military uniform and > eating > > out of a lunchbox in solidarity with the absent one, and the sound she > was > > making was "ing! ing!" > > > > > > My sentiments exactly! I have been kicking myself, if not quite beating > > myself with a shovel, for arguing yesterday that consonants are > > differentiated before vowels. I am currently reading a set of studies > > coming out of China that try to argue this, and try to explain it on the > > grounds of the greater salience of consonant sounds. But vowels and > > consonants are not part of Chinese; the smallest meaningful difference in > > Chinese is a whole syllable. It's just another example of the imperialism > > of Western linguistics--everything has to be treated as if it had, deep > in > > its guts, a Western alphabet trying to get out. > > > > > > Even in English, it seems to me that vowels and consonants have to be > > differentiated side by side, out of some prior sound that is neither. And > > that prior sound? Well, actually, it's the most common sound in the > Chinese > > repertoire--the naseopharyngealized semi-vowel that babies make when they > > are born, which rhymes with "ing". > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > On 15 March 2015 at 17:16, Haydi Zulfei > > wrote: > > > > > >> Thanks , David ! I'm following the case using what you wrote as clues > > >> to clarification . > > >> From: David Kellogg > > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > >> Sent: Sunday, 15 March 2015, 1:12:48 > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference > > >> > > >> Well, of course, from the child's point of view, "Baby Bites" is > > >> probably not even monosemous, merely alliterative. > > >> > > >> As Haydi says--how does the child avoid Buridanism before speech? I > > >> take it that what he means is that in order to master the system, what > > >> is required is not simply the mindless internalization of some purely > > >> external resource but rather (as in the crises we find in other forms > > of development, e.g. > > >> sociogenesis and even phylogenesis) the constraining of some > > >> super-productive neoformation that emerges at the interface between > > >> the child and the environment--that is, the narrowing of the available > > >> choices we find in ('autonomous') child language to fit the > > >> phonological system of the mother tongue (as Halliday points out, > > >> learning a mother tongue is really learning a second language!). > > >> > > >> I think the answer is that the child initially treats speech as > > >> something that is not even monosemous but merely alliterative--sound > > without meaning. > > >> So how does the child master the sounds? According to the genetic law, > > >> sounds would be initially constrained by imitation and then elaborated > > >> by > > >> self-imitation: that is, repetition. But how? > > >> > > >> Alliteration appears to be clearly differentiated before rhyme in > > >> English poetry (c.f. "Gawain and the Green Knight"). Ontogenesis too? > > >> That would mean that the child is aware of a choice of different > > >> consonants before the child is aware of a choice of different vowels, > > >> and that does seem to be the case. > > >> > > >> David Kellogg > > >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On 15 March 2015 at 01:40, Martin John Packer > > >> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Nonsense, David, she's reading the list of ingredients printed on > > >>> the bottom! > > >>> > > >>> And isn't "Baby Bites" wonderfully polysemous? > > >>> > > >>> Martin > > >>> > > >>> On Mar 13, 2015, at 4:17 PM, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> > > >>>> http://www.greatnewplaces.com/images/Kids/img7189_30122012121700.j > > >>>> peg > > >>>> > > >>>> My students were struck by the fact that the child, surrounded by > > >>> elaborate > > >>>> tools not of her own making, seems much more interested in the > > >>>> objects > > >> as > > >>>> objects than in their use as signs. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > ________________________________ > > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > it. > > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan > emails > > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > > by an official order form. > > > > > > > > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Mar 17 20:20:36 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 21:20:36 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context In-Reply-To: References: <62BDB71E-E704-4547-9BA8-D2735C8C629C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <29B6E651-03CB-4E77-BF57-D268DA5093B7@gmail.com> Yikes! > On Mar 17, 2015, at 6:12 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Darn good thing it rhymes, Henry, 'cause it doesn't have a whole lot of > reason! > > mike > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:59 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Also: >> History doesn?t repeat itself, but it does rhyme. >> Mark Twain >> >>> On Mar 17, 2015, at 1:39 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >> pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: >>> >>> history repeats itself, the first as tragedy, then as farce...Karl marx >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >>> President >>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >>> www.mocombeian.com >>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >>> www.paulcmocombe.info >>> >>>
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, >> Michael"
Date:03/17/2015 3:29 PM >> (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in >> social context
>>>
I think the difference is that this time there is much more push >> back against this type of thing. Those with control of the megaphone are >> bringing back the same old hits, but perhaps people aren't buying in to >> them that much. The student and parent revolt against standardized >> testing. The #Blacklivesmatter. The mayoral election in Chicago. >>> >>> We certainly do live in interesting times. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 3:23 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teaching in social context >>> >>> @mike - sadness. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:13 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> Sure looks and feels like the late 1960's, culture of poverty deja >>>> vu-ing all over again. >>>> Goes right along with re-segregation of our schools, overt violence >>>> against people of color, and biological "explanations" that threaten >>>> to become self-fulfilling prophecies. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Greg Thompson >>>> >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> but Mike (other Greg here), I think Paul was particularly picking up >>>>> on >>>> the >>>>> fact that this was part of a "district wide mock test". >>>>> >>>>> I thought that this kind of cultural and socioeconomic bias in >>>>> testing >>>> had >>>>> been chopped at the roots by the myriad of critiques of this sort of >>>> thing >>>>> back in the 80's and 90's? I would have at least thought that the >>>> problems >>>>> with a passage like this would be obvious to test-makers today. Or >>>>> has >>>> that >>>>> all been forgotten? >>>>> >>>>> More evidence that we are back to the beginning? >>>>> >>>>> [and btw, I'm perhaps even more baffled by how this got integrated >>>>> into a 3rd grade test. Seems a bit beyond what my kids could have >>>>> handled in 3rd grade.] >>>>> >>>>> -greg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 11:13 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Greg--- Not to mention people being caught in the rude. >>>>>> >>>>>> Seems like the grumpy quality of the narrative is being picked up >>>>>> on, >>>> but >>>>>> hard to tell. >>>>>> >>>>>> *The Secret Garden* is antiquarian by American standards, having >>>> appeared >>>>>> in the latter part of the 1900's. I note there is a modern TV >>>>>> series >>>>> about >>>>>> it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Paul - Would it be permissible to incorporate some of the TV, so >>>>>> the >>>> kids >>>>>> get a richer interpretive object and mix it with reading? >>>>>> >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Greg Mcverry >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> A hoe, a gardener named weatherstaff and a mistress, Oh how >>>>>>> meaning >>>>>> could >>>>>>> be misconstrued. And I am not even considering the mansion which >>>>>>> few >>>> of >>>>>>> your wife's students have any real cultural reference point. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:54 PM Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >>>>>>> pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My wife teaches 3rd grade at an inner-city school. Today the >>>>> students >>>>>>>> were tested on a district-wide mock test and they came across >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> attached >>>>>>>> passage. Half the class came up to her, and said that they >>>>>>>> can not >>>>>> read >>>>>>>> the passage bcuz they are cursing in it... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >>>>>>>> President >>>>>>>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >>>>>>>> www.mocombeian.com >>>>>>>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >>>>>>>> www.paulcmocombe.info >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with >>>>>> an >>>>> object >>>>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >> >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Mar 17 20:51:13 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 21:51:13 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" Message-ID: I just came across this nice article by Michael Hobbes in the New Republic: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120178/problem-international-development-and-plan-fix-it In it, he argues against the notion that there are simple big ideas that can easily be scaled up in international development. This seems like an argument that could just as easily have been made about education in any major nation state (and he does touch on education a number of times, but it isn't at the center of his critique). Curious if others agree. -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Wed Mar 18 01:58:37 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 19:58:37 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and Deborin In-Reply-To: References: <5506432E.6000109@mira.net> Message-ID: <55093E3D.4050701@mira.net> I've ordered David Bakhurst's book, which I hope will tell me even more, but thanks to Natalia Gajdamschko and via Natalia, Gena Kravtsova, and Anton Yasnitsky, I am now certain that Vygotsky never met Deborin, but he did collaborate with two of Deborin's supporters in writing a book on currents of Psychology in 1930, exactly the time I'm interested in, Osnovnye techeniia sovremennoi psikhologii, which is to be found at http://www.koob.ru/vigodsky_v_l/main_currents. Anton tells me that this collaboration had a very negative effect on Vygotsky's career, as Deborin was denounced in January 1931, but in my humble opinion, seems to have been invaluable in preparing Vygotsky to write "Thinking and Speech." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > I would consult David Bakhurst's early book. > mike > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Is there anyone who can tell me a bit more about the relationship > between Vygotsky and Abram Deborin, who was an editor of "Under > the Banner of Marxism," a fan of Spinoza and I believe the > translator of the Russian version of Hegel's Shorter Logic. I > would be particularly interested in the dates of interactions > between them. > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Mar 18 02:27:32 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 09:27:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sure, Greg. Perhaps the author would benefit from reading Illich, "The siren of one ambulance can destroy Samaritan attitudes in a whole Chilean town". This is simply one example of the failings of formal logic, or as Illich refers to it, iatrogenesis (note the genetic semantics). Huw On 18 March 2015 at 03:51, Greg Thompson wrote: > I just came across this nice article by Michael Hobbes in the New Republic: > > http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120178/problem-international-development-and-plan-fix-it > > In it, he argues against the notion that there are simple big ideas that > can easily be scaled up in international development. > > This seems like an argument that could just as easily have been made about > education in any major nation state (and he does touch on education a > number of times, but it isn't at the center of his critique). > > Curious if others agree. > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Mar 18 02:27:32 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 09:27:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sure, Greg. Perhaps the author would benefit from reading Illich, "The siren of one ambulance can destroy Samaritan attitudes in a whole Chilean town". This is simply one example of the failings of formal logic, or as Illich refers to it, iatrogenesis (note the genetic semantics). Huw On 18 March 2015 at 03:51, Greg Thompson wrote: > I just came across this nice article by Michael Hobbes in the New Republic: > > http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120178/problem-international-development-and-plan-fix-it > > In it, he argues against the notion that there are simple big ideas that > can easily be scaled up in international development. > > This seems like an argument that could just as easily have been made about > education in any major nation state (and he does touch on education a > number of times, but it isn't at the center of his critique). > > Curious if others agree. > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Wed Mar 18 03:52:29 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 10:52:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Assessing Informal Learning -- on Amazon References: <550716A8.60109@open.ac.uk> <55072422.7000000@open.ac.uk> <55073AEB.8020007@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: Out of stock on Amazon in ways. Must be nice when a printing run sells out. On Mon, Mar 16, 2015, 4:22 PM rjsp2 wrote: > Well, I've just ordered through https://www.hive.co.uk, and got a small > percentage off and free delivery. A good deal for anyone in the UK. > > Rob > > On 16/03/2015 19:05, mike cole wrote: > > You are corresponding with the prince-of-the-addled-brain, Rob. If it > were > > not for > > Jay's steady hand, this would never have gotten us past the tech report > > stage. We are > > pushing for an e-version. For those who engage in the relevant sort of > > research, it is > > a handy compendium of approaches that seemed promising and a lot of labor > > went into > > its production, so hopefully there is some left over surplus value for > the > > consumer. :-) > > mike > > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 11:42 AM, rjsp2 > wrote: > > > >> Of course it is - that's where you first pointed us. Sorry - I shall now > >> crawl back into the seventh circle of marking hell, and addle my brain > >> even further. > >> > >> Rob > >> > >> On 16/03/2015 18:06, mike cole wrote: > >> > >>> Sure, Rob. It can be obtained here: > >>> > >>> http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/documenting-and-assessing- > >>> learning-informal-and-media-rich-environments > >>> > >>> On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 10:45 AM, rjsp2 > wrote: > >>> > >>> Are there alternatives for those of us who are not using Amazon till > a) > >>>> they start paying tax in the countries where they do their business > and > >>>> b) start paying their workers fairly? > >>>> > >>>> Rob > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 16/03/2015 17:21, Jay Lemke wrote: > >>>> > >>>> For those of you interested in the complete text of our new book on > >>>>> documenting and assessing learning in informal activities (Lemke, > >>>>> Lecusay, > >>>>> Cole, & Michalchik 2015), it is now available at a discount price via > >>>>> Amazon: > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.amazon.com/Documenting-Assessing-Media- > >>>>> Rich-Environments-Foundation/dp/026252774X > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Jay Lemke > >>>>> LCHC/Department of Communication > >>>>> University of California - San Diego > >>>>> www.jaylemke.com > >>>>> > >>>>> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC > 000391), an > >>>> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland > >>>> (SC > >>>> 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the > Financial > >>>> Conduct Authority. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an > >> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland > (SC > >> 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the > Financial > >> Conduct Authority. > >> > >> > > > > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an > exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC > 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial > Conduct Authority. > > From Peg.Griffin@att.net Wed Mar 18 07:11:44 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 10:11:44 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001b01d06185$77f1e2f0$67d5a8d0$@att.net> This thread seems good to ask for advice for this situation: A young woman from China is pursuing a Master's Degree in Early Childhood Education in the US in a program that provides language and "hidden curriculum" sorts of transition support for students visiting from other countries. She is very concerned about the "left behind children" in China. There is much coverage about these families/children in Chinese media and some in US and some other countries. I'm hoping that someone on the list knows of an activist and/or research groups that this young woman might locate (in any country). She perseveres and tries hard to find ways toward the solution side of problems. The problem as she explains it (and as we have been able to find information from na?ve web searching) is this: Parents move (from rural areas or less prosperous often smaller cities) to larger cities where they can make closer to a living wage for the family. Children are left behind, usually with grandparents, because finances and legal requirements make it a problem for them to go with the parents. BUT, at the same time, in the places where the children are left behind, public schools the parents went to have been closed or are closing; the alternatives require tuition as well as book and supply fees. Money the parents send back to those left behind help with increasing costs of food, shelter, health, clothing but can seldom spread enough for tuition so children -- especially after grade 2 -- have no schooling. Travel costs usually prohibit more than one meeting a year of all three generations. Phone communication is often once a week, though. A Chinese term usually translated as "left behind" is used a great deal in discussions in China about this. Any references to quality readings or people will be greatly appreciated. PG on behalf of YL -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 5:28 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" Sure, Greg. Perhaps the author would benefit from reading Illich, "The siren of one ambulance can destroy Samaritan attitudes in a whole Chilean town". This is simply one example of the failings of formal logic, or as Illich refers to it, iatrogenesis (note the genetic semantics). Huw On 18 March 2015 at 03:51, Greg Thompson wrote: > I just came across this nice article by Michael Hobbes in the New Republic: > > http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120178/problem-international-develo > pment-and-plan-fix-it > > In it, he argues against the notion that there are simple big ideas > that can easily be scaled up in international development. > > This seems like an argument that could just as easily have been made > about education in any major nation state (and he does touch on > education a number of times, but it isn't at the center of his critique). > > Curious if others agree. > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From Peg.Griffin@att.net Wed Mar 18 07:11:44 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 10:11:44 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001b01d06185$77f1e2f0$67d5a8d0$@att.net> This thread seems good to ask for advice for this situation: A young woman from China is pursuing a Master's Degree in Early Childhood Education in the US in a program that provides language and "hidden curriculum" sorts of transition support for students visiting from other countries. She is very concerned about the "left behind children" in China. There is much coverage about these families/children in Chinese media and some in US and some other countries. I'm hoping that someone on the list knows of an activist and/or research groups that this young woman might locate (in any country). She perseveres and tries hard to find ways toward the solution side of problems. The problem as she explains it (and as we have been able to find information from na?ve web searching) is this: Parents move (from rural areas or less prosperous often smaller cities) to larger cities where they can make closer to a living wage for the family. Children are left behind, usually with grandparents, because finances and legal requirements make it a problem for them to go with the parents. BUT, at the same time, in the places where the children are left behind, public schools the parents went to have been closed or are closing; the alternatives require tuition as well as book and supply fees. Money the parents send back to those left behind help with increasing costs of food, shelter, health, clothing but can seldom spread enough for tuition so children -- especially after grade 2 -- have no schooling. Travel costs usually prohibit more than one meeting a year of all three generations. Phone communication is often once a week, though. A Chinese term usually translated as "left behind" is used a great deal in discussions in China about this. Any references to quality readings or people will be greatly appreciated. PG on behalf of YL -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 5:28 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" Sure, Greg. Perhaps the author would benefit from reading Illich, "The siren of one ambulance can destroy Samaritan attitudes in a whole Chilean town". This is simply one example of the failings of formal logic, or as Illich refers to it, iatrogenesis (note the genetic semantics). Huw On 18 March 2015 at 03:51, Greg Thompson wrote: > I just came across this nice article by Michael Hobbes in the New Republic: > > http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120178/problem-international-develo > pment-and-plan-fix-it > > In it, he argues against the notion that there are simple big ideas > that can easily be scaled up in international development. > > This seems like an argument that could just as easily have been made > about education in any major nation state (and he does touch on > education a number of times, but it isn't at the center of his critique). > > Curious if others agree. > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Mar 18 11:56:33 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 11:56:33 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: 2015 Documentary Fund Opens April 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: MacArthur Foundation Date: Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 9:54 AM Subject: 2015 Documentary Fund Opens April 1 To: mcole@ucsd.edu View as web page ? | Forward to a friend ? [image: MacArthur_HeaderLogo] [image: Placeholder_e-blast] MacArthur Documentary Fund Opens April 1 The MacArthur Foundation 2015 Documentary Fund will open April 1. The Fund seeks to support feature documentary films and interactive digital documentaries that combine engaging storytelling with in-depth journalism. Proposals will be accepted through September 1, 2015. Applicants are invited to submit a project proposal anytime between April 1 and September 1, 2015. All applicants will be notified of their status within 6-8 weeks of submission. Grants will be made on a rolling basis as qualified proposals are selected for funding. Consistent with previous years, the Foundation expects to fund no more than 20 projects this year. [image: LearnMore_Button] [image: Committed to building a more just, verdant, and peaceful world.] [image: MacArthur Foundation] FOLLOW US ON [image: YouTube-logo-full_color] [image: Twitter_logo_blue] This email was sent to: *mcole@ucsd.edu * This email was sent by: *John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation* 140 South Dearborn Street | Chicago | IL | 60603-5285 | UNITED STATES Go here to leave this mailing list or modify your email profile. We respect your right to privacy. View our policy. -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From rlecusay@ucsd.edu Wed Mar 18 13:04:53 2015 From: rlecusay@ucsd.edu (robert lecusay) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 13:04:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Assessing Informal Learning -- on Amazon Message-ID: Hi all, You can now get a free pdf download of the book at the same link: http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/documenting-and-assessing-learning-informal-and-media-rich-environments -r On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Jay Lemke wrote: > For those of you interested in the complete text of our new book on > documenting and assessing learning in informal activities (Lemke, Lecusay, > Cole, & Michalchik 2015), it is now available at a discount price via > Amazon: > > > http://www.amazon.com/Documenting-Assessing-Media-Rich-Environments-Foundation/dp/026252774X > > > > Jay Lemke > LCHC/Department of Communication > University of California - San Diego > www.jaylemke.com > From rlecusay@ucsd.edu Wed Mar 18 13:04:53 2015 From: rlecusay@ucsd.edu (robert lecusay) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 13:04:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Assessing Informal Learning -- on Amazon Message-ID: Hi all, You can now get a free pdf download of the book at the same link: http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/documenting-and-assessing-learning-informal-and-media-rich-environments -r On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Jay Lemke wrote: > For those of you interested in the complete text of our new book on > documenting and assessing learning in informal activities (Lemke, Lecusay, > Cole, & Michalchik 2015), it is now available at a discount price via > Amazon: > > > http://www.amazon.com/Documenting-Assessing-Media-Rich-Environments-Foundation/dp/026252774X > > > > Jay Lemke > LCHC/Department of Communication > University of California - San Diego > www.jaylemke.com > From rlecusay@ucsd.edu Wed Mar 18 13:06:01 2015 From: rlecusay@ucsd.edu (robert lecusay) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 13:06:01 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Describing & Assessing Informal Learning Activities Message-ID: Hi all, You can now get a free pdf download of the book at the same link: http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/documenting-and-assessing-learning-informal-and-media-rich-environments -r On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 8:29 AM, mike cole wrote: > Jay Lemke and some colleagues (including myself) have published a broad > review of efforts to provide adequate descriptions and evaluations of all > sort of informal (meaning, here, roughly, out of school) learning > environments. > > The executive summary is attached for anyone curious. The MIT link is here: > > > http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/documenting-and-assessing-learning-informal-and-media-rich-environments > > > Pass it along if you know someone who is bedeviled by the difficulties of > doing research in this broad area. > > mike > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > From rlecusay@ucsd.edu Wed Mar 18 13:08:09 2015 From: rlecusay@ucsd.edu (robert lecusay) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 13:08:09 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Assessing Informal Learning -- on Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Apologies - I mis-wrote. You can get a free pdf download at the MIT press website (not at Amazon): http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/documenting-and-assessing-learning-informal-and-media-rich-environments -r On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 1:04 PM, robert lecusay wrote: > Hi all, > > You can now get a free pdf download of the book at the same link: > > > http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/documenting-and-assessing-learning-informal-and-media-rich-environments > > > -r > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Jay Lemke wrote: > >> For those of you interested in the complete text of our new book on >> documenting and assessing learning in informal activities (Lemke, Lecusay, >> Cole, & Michalchik 2015), it is now available at a discount price via >> Amazon: >> >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Documenting-Assessing-Media-Rich-Environments-Foundation/dp/026252774X >> >> >> >> Jay Lemke >> LCHC/Department of Communication >> University of California - San Diego >> www.jaylemke.com >> > > From rlecusay@ucsd.edu Wed Mar 18 13:08:09 2015 From: rlecusay@ucsd.edu (robert lecusay) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 13:08:09 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Assessing Informal Learning -- on Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Apologies - I mis-wrote. You can get a free pdf download at the MIT press website (not at Amazon): http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/documenting-and-assessing-learning-informal-and-media-rich-environments -r On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 1:04 PM, robert lecusay wrote: > Hi all, > > You can now get a free pdf download of the book at the same link: > > > http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/documenting-and-assessing-learning-informal-and-media-rich-environments > > > -r > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Jay Lemke wrote: > >> For those of you interested in the complete text of our new book on >> documenting and assessing learning in informal activities (Lemke, Lecusay, >> Cole, & Michalchik 2015), it is now available at a discount price via >> Amazon: >> >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Documenting-Assessing-Media-Rich-Environments-Foundation/dp/026252774X >> >> >> >> Jay Lemke >> LCHC/Department of Communication >> University of California - San Diego >> www.jaylemke.com >> > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Mar 18 13:38:45 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:38:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" In-Reply-To: <001b01d06185$77f1e2f0$67d5a8d0$@att.net> References: <001b01d06185$77f1e2f0$67d5a8d0$@att.net> Message-ID: Peg, The media and the government know about it and yet nothing is done? Perhaps its an opportunity for the likes of apple to gain some brownie points -- "Sure we have workshops in China, we also support schools too." Which might be enough to embarrass the local government into action. Just a thought. http://www.apple.com/pr/ Huw On 18 March 2015 at 14:11, Peg Griffin wrote: > This thread seems good to ask for advice for this situation: A young > woman from China is pursuing a Master's Degree in Early Childhood Education > in the US in a program that provides language and "hidden curriculum" sorts > of transition support for students visiting from other countries. She is > very concerned about the "left behind children" in China. There is much > coverage about these families/children in Chinese media and some in US and > some other countries. I'm hoping that someone on the list knows of an > activist and/or research groups that this young woman might locate (in any > country). She perseveres and tries hard to find ways toward the solution > side of problems. > > The problem as she explains it (and as we have been able to find > information from na?ve web searching) is this: Parents move (from rural > areas or less prosperous often smaller cities) to larger cities where they > can make closer to a living wage for the family. Children are left behind, > usually with grandparents, because finances and legal requirements make it > a problem for them to go with the parents. BUT, at the same time, in the > places where the children are left behind, public schools the parents went > to have been closed or are closing; the alternatives require tuition as > well as book and supply fees. Money the parents send back to those left > behind help with increasing costs of food, shelter, health, clothing but > can seldom spread enough for tuition so children -- especially after grade > 2 -- have no schooling. Travel costs usually prohibit more than one > meeting a year of all three generations. Phone communication is often once > a week, though. A Chinese term usually translated as "left behind" is used > a great deal in discussions in China about this. > > Any references to quality readings or people will be greatly appreciated. > PG on behalf of YL > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd > Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 5:28 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" > > Sure, Greg. > > Perhaps the author would benefit from reading Illich, "The siren of one > ambulance can destroy Samaritan attitudes in a whole Chilean town". > > This is simply one example of the failings of formal logic, or as Illich > refers to it, iatrogenesis (note the genetic semantics). > > Huw > > On 18 March 2015 at 03:51, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > I just came across this nice article by Michael Hobbes in the New > Republic: > > > > http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120178/problem-international-develo > > pment-and-plan-fix-it > > > > In it, he argues against the notion that there are simple big ideas > > that can easily be scaled up in international development. > > > > This seems like an argument that could just as easily have been made > > about education in any major nation state (and he does touch on > > education a number of times, but it isn't at the center of his critique). > > > > Curious if others agree. > > -greg > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Mar 18 14:06:45 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 06:06:45 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" In-Reply-To: <001b01d06185$77f1e2f0$67d5a8d0$@att.net> References: <001b01d06185$77f1e2f0$67d5a8d0$@att.net> Message-ID: Peg: I'm afraid I don't know of any activists you could contact in China. But it seems to me that the account you have of the "left behind" families leaves out one possibly relevant piece of information. China still has a system of "hukou", which involves local registration, and functions something like the internal passport system did in Tsarist Russia and also in Vygotsky's time. For example, my wife's hukou was in the western city of Xi'an. This meant that she couldn't legally move to the east, towards the coast, and still receive social services, such as schooling for any children she might have (because hukou is matrilineal). People from the countryside cannot receive urban "hukou" unless they either join the army or are admitted to university (and if they go to university they are often required to return to the countryside upon graduation unless their alma mater can offer them employment). Without "hukou", employment is not legal (although possible). Schooling is out of the question. As usual, there are ways around these things. My niece's hukou was in a remote rural area, because my sister-in-law was born there, but after many years of struggle, my brother-in-law was able to purchase an urban hukou for her, and she now goes to school in the city with other children. The obvious parallel for Westerners with no experience of internal passports is the external passport system--while capital can move freely in the west, in order to move across borders, a worker has to arrange work with an employer, and if the worker does so in a way that is perceived by the government or the locals as "illegal" or undocumented then they may not receive education and social services and they may have to leave children behind as a result. This happens in the USA along the border, and the demagogic campaigns carried out around immigration in places like Arizona are designed to aggravate it to the point where "self-deportation" occurs. (You remember that in the last election, Mitt Romney crafted a whole immigration policy around the persecution of foreign-born workers, especially those with children.) I think that, as in the West, the main activist groups you will find around this issue in China will be lobbying within the government and within Communist Party for the abolition of "hukou". In some areas of southern China (e.g. the Pearl River delta, there are actually businessmen who find it hard to round up cheap labor now. So there are lots of wealthy industrialists in the CCP now who would like to see the end of hukou and more flexibility in the labor market, just as some entrepreneurs in Texas would like to see immigration reform--it will greatly assist the process of driving down workers' wages. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 18 March 2015 at 23:11, Peg Griffin wrote: > This thread seems good to ask for advice for this situation: A young > woman from China is pursuing a Master's Degree in Early Childhood Education > in the US in a program that provides language and "hidden curriculum" sorts > of transition support for students visiting from other countries. She is > very concerned about the "left behind children" in China. There is much > coverage about these families/children in Chinese media and some in US and > some other countries. I'm hoping that someone on the list knows of an > activist and/or research groups that this young woman might locate (in any > country). She perseveres and tries hard to find ways toward the solution > side of problems. > > The problem as she explains it (and as we have been able to find > information from na?ve web searching) is this: Parents move (from rural > areas or less prosperous often smaller cities) to larger cities where they > can make closer to a living wage for the family. Children are left behind, > usually with grandparents, because finances and legal requirements make it > a problem for them to go with the parents. BUT, at the same time, in the > places where the children are left behind, public schools the parents went > to have been closed or are closing; the alternatives require tuition as > well as book and supply fees. Money the parents send back to those left > behind help with increasing costs of food, shelter, health, clothing but > can seldom spread enough for tuition so children -- especially after grade > 2 -- have no schooling. Travel costs usually prohibit more than one > meeting a year of all three generations. Phone communication is often once > a week, though. A Chinese term usually translated as "left behind" is used > a great deal in discussions in China about this. > > Any references to quality readings or people will be greatly appreciated. > PG on behalf of YL > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd > Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 5:28 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" > > Sure, Greg. > > Perhaps the author would benefit from reading Illich, "The siren of one > ambulance can destroy Samaritan attitudes in a whole Chilean town". > > This is simply one example of the failings of formal logic, or as Illich > refers to it, iatrogenesis (note the genetic semantics). > > Huw > > On 18 March 2015 at 03:51, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > I just came across this nice article by Michael Hobbes in the New > Republic: > > > > http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120178/problem-international-develo > > pment-and-plan-fix-it > > > > In it, he argues against the notion that there are simple big ideas > > that can easily be scaled up in international development. > > > > This seems like an argument that could just as easily have been made > > about education in any major nation state (and he does touch on > > education a number of times, but it isn't at the center of his critique). > > > > Curious if others agree. > > -greg > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Wed Mar 18 14:18:04 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 21:18:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" Message-ID: This is common in the US as well. Especially in border states with Mexico. Recently a wave of unaccompanied minors (5 and 6 years old) trying to immigrate without parents by traveling 1,000 of miles. There is some recent research in the literacy community around transnational literacies but in terms of activism you have DREAM advocates and not enough.... The same event sparked a wave of xenophobia that ended immigration reform in US. In terms of the original post fidelity and scale have always been the impossible dream of outcome based research. The same is true of education reform and development in general. Instead of fidelity I think we should try for federated development. Have a shared goal but allow for the plan to be forked and localized. From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Mar 18 14:34:45 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 15:34:45 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg, I like this idea of "federated development" but am also fond of "viral development". The latter has the advantage of feeling more "organic" ("federation" has connotations of "bureaucracy" to me - e.g. Star Wars), but on the other hand, "viral" is not exactly a catchy (!) concept in positive terms (e.g., computer viruses, cold viruses...). -greg On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > This is common in the US as well. Especially in border states with Mexico. > Recently a wave of unaccompanied minors (5 and 6 years old) trying to > immigrate without parents by traveling 1,000 of miles. > > There is some recent research in the literacy community around > transnational literacies but in terms of activism you have DREAM advocates > and not enough.... > > The same event sparked a wave of xenophobia that ended immigration reform > in US. > > In terms of the original post fidelity and scale have always been the > impossible dream of outcome based research. > > The same is true of education reform and development in general. > > Instead of fidelity I think we should try for federated development. Have a > shared goal but allow for the plan to be forked and localized. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Mar 18 15:00:15 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 15:00:15 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: no primitive language? In-Reply-To: References: <549E83CB.60802@mira.net> <549E85AD.5040702@mira.net> <549E868C.2020809@mira.net> <6F1EE308-E173-4D4B-B54E-B7D1D59865E6@uniandes.edu.co> <549f1710.0167460a.12bb.7111@mx.google.com> Message-ID: David, I could not resist citing you one more time on your conclusion to Saussure: And getting linguistics right takes a lot more than just one life. Saussure "corrected" his brilliant work on historical linguistics by utterly turning his back on culture and on history, and in so doing invented twentieth century structuralism. In his defense, he did tell his wife and his students to burn the mansuscript of his General Course and not to publish it; Bally and Sechehaye disobeyed his dying wishes. As Larry's article suggests, he tried, too late, to correct his correction. And so the evil men do lives after them. David, it is this "reciprocal approach" captured in your commentary that I find fascinating. Now to return to the notion of "tool" and "sign" and "object". Heidegger has explored this "theme" with his understanding that a "tool" [such as a hammer] in its function AS "tool" disappears [or is concealed] within the "lived horizon of participating within worlds" He calls this "approach" "tool" as "ready to hand". Heidigger, however, contrast this "approach" [as tools] to the "approach" of making "assertions about tools". THIS assertive mode where we point to the tool AS "object" creates a profound shift in how we participate in cultural-historical "worlds" This moving away from understanding artifacts AS "tools" and towards approaching these same artifacts AS "objects" is the move to artifacts as being "on hand" [in contrast to ready to hand]. Heidegger says there is a profound shift in the meaning of "as" The objective "as" and the existential-hermeneutical "as". If interested this came from page 138 of Richard Palmer's book [Hermeneutics]. Palmer reads hermeneutics as historical "responses" to previous works or projects. I am interested in Gadamer's "response to Heidegger" Larry On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 2:00 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Verily, the good men do is oft interred with their bones.... Saussure > was a brilliant historical linguist, who made amazing contributions to the > reconstruction of proto-Indo-european, the language which ties our own > tongues to Sanskrit. As part of these contributions, he was faced with the > task of working out the vowel and consonant system of a language that > nobody had spoken for thousands of years. How did he do it? > > By inventing structuralism. He figured out, quite correctly, that in order > to be comprehensible, phonological systems had to have perceptible > oppositions. So if you had a high front vowel like "i" at one end of your > mouth you had to have a low back vowel like "ou" at the other end. By > working backwards from the sounds we use today, Saussure was able to > reconstruct a whole system of laryngeal contrasts that probably haven't > been used in two thousand years. Fifty years AFTER his death, Hittite texts > were discovered that show that his guess was probably right. > > Now, here's the mystery. After a brilliant career as a historical linguist, > Saussure suddenly declared war on history and decided to try to construct a > linguistics that was, rather like the extant ideas of mathematics, a purely > abstract and timeless system. Not ony sounds but also words and even > grammatical features like tense were to be understood in relation to each > other, not in relation to any actual human needs. > > This turns out to explain the relationship of SOUNDING to WORDING quite > well. But as Larry points out (and as Vygotsky points out in his discussion > of why you can call a dog a cow and a cow a dog but you can't call a > blackbird a redwing and vice versa) it is a really terrible way to think > about the relationship of WORDING to MEANING. In other words, arbitrariness > is a good way to talk about phonology, and a terrible way to talk about > grammar. There's a very good reason why verbs have tenses and nouns have > plurals. You can do it the other way around if you really want (and in fact > English, unlike Korean, does have the annoying property of using "s" on > singular VERBS and then using 's' on plural NOUNS). But not so much and not > for long: the relationship of wording to meaning is just not conventional > in the way that the relationship of wording to sounding is. > > And that brings us back to Andy's question. We can argue, as Saussure did, > that there are certain sounds that are "primitive" (Saussure believed that > laryngeal sounds were energy consuming and died out as a result, and I > suppose you could make the same argument for click languages like > isiXhosa). But when we make this argument we should be clear that what we > are calling "primitive" is really the baroque--a kind of extravagance that > some societies choose to lavish on language and others prefer to expend on > furniture. It is much harder to argue that some words are more primitive > than others simply because wordings evolve in social settings (anybody who > has tried to cook Chinese food in an English speaking environment will tell > you that English, despite its very rich vocabulary for roasting, baking, > grilling, etc, is not a good language for frying , while Chinese is exactly > the opposite, and it's easy to imagine that our vocabulary would be rather > primitive for describing hunting conditions in the Kalahari). And at the > level of grammar, which is by its very nature systemic, this argument is > simply impossible. > > Here is the kernel of truth in Chomsky's idea that all languages, on an > abstract level, have the same grammar, and Derrida's comment that we all > speak only one language but the language we speak is not one. As Butzkamm > puts it, you learn language exactly once; it just takes your whole life to > get it right. > > And getting linguistics right takes a lot more than just one life. > Saussure "corrected" his brilliant work on historical linguistics by > utterly turning his back on culture and on history, and in so doing > invented twentieth century structuralism. In his defense, he did tell his > wife and his students to burn the mansuscript of his General Course and not > to publish it; Bally and Sechehaye disobeyed his dying wishes. As Larry's > article suggests, he tried, too late, to correct his correction. And so > the evil men do lives after them. > > David Kelllogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > On 28 December 2014 at 05:23, wrote: > > > I wrote out a section of an article by Franson Manjali exploring the > > *social* and the *cognitive* in Saussure?s understanding of language. It > > may add to this conversation on the lexical and the grammatical aspects > of > > language. It is only one page I quoted but the article is fascinating > > exploring the themes of more and less arbitrary systems of language and > its > > regularity. > > > > Annalisa, the beginning of the article explores Saussure?s debt to the > > Vedic scholars of language. > > > > > > The article is published at [Texto! Volume XVll, number 3, (2012). I > could > > add more if others are interested, or the linguists among us could answer > > Franson Manjali reading of the *social* > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Martin John Packer > > Sent: ?Saturday?, ?December? ?27?, ?2014 ?3?:?57? ?AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > > > > > > > David, I know you know more about this than I know.... but the debate > > today centers on the Pirah?, no? Do they have color terms? Do they have > > number terms? Do they have recursion? > > > > Martin > > > > On Dec 27, 2014, at 5:35 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > > > > > Well, of course Carol's really right, Andy. We need to say what we mean > > by > > > primitive. Does it mean that the language is historically young? In > that > > > case, the most primitive language is probably modern Hebrew. Does it > mean > > > that the language is grammatically simple? Which aspect of the grammar? > > > > > > Let's take case, since this is Vygotsky's model for linguistic > complexity > > > in the Lectures. Annaluisa will tell you about Sanskrit's eight cases; > > > modern Tamil has seven; Greek and Latin had about six. Tsez, in the > > > mountains of the Caucasus, has 64 cases (mostly locatives). > > > > > > English is probably the most primitive languages in the world from this > > > point of view; it has a distinction between "I" and "me" and "he" and > > "him" > > > but that's about it. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27 December 2014 at 19:14, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > > >> Thanks, Carol. :) > > >> I am OK from here then. > > >> Much appreciated. > > >> Andy > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> *Andy Blunden* > > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >> > > >> > > >> Carol Macdonald wrote: > > >> > > >>> Syntax, semantics. pragmatics, phonology, discourse orientation: they > > >>> just give their own version of these aspects. > > >>> > > >>> On 27 December 2014 at 12:10, Andy Blunden > >>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Thanks, Carol. > > >>> Can those "key characteristics" be given in a few lines? > > >>> Andy > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> ------------ > > >>> *Andy Blunden* > > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Carol Macdonald wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Andy > > >>> > > >>> It's true. Languages all share key characteristics. > > >>> > > >>> Carol > > >>> > > >>> On 27 December 2014 at 12:02, Andy Blunden > >>> > >>> >> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> I have heard, and I believe it to be the case, that there > > >>> is no > > >>> such thing as a "primitive language." > > >>> I am not talking about the "language" of children raised > in > > >>> isolation, or the "home sign" of deaf children, I mean > > >>> among the > > >>> languages of actual historical peoples. > > >>> I would just appreciate that if this is wrong, could > > >>> someone on > > >>> this list who knows about this kind of thing disabuse me. > > >>> Otherwise I will assume this to be factual. > > >>> > > >>> Thanks > > >>> Andy > > >>> -- ------------------------------ > > >>> ------------------------------------------ > > >>> *Andy Blunden* > > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > >>> Developmental psycholinguist > > >>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: > > >>> Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > >>> Developmental psycholinguist > > >>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: > Department > > of > > >>> Linguistics, Unisa > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Wed Mar 18 15:22:56 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 22:22:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg, I borrow heavily from the software development field that has been influencing my thinking on providing open access education. Most specifically are Mozilla's efforts to teach the web. We have a goal of 1,500 volunteers in 500 cities running Mozilla Web Clubs to help the next billion get online. This effort is especially focused on the developing world that is going mobile first. As a community we have been trying to establish a set of competencies and skills , develop curriculum , build a club system and a badging platform. So I use the term federated instead of viral on purpose. Viral is more the user sharing content and we are shaping content for the user to fork and adapt. On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 5:37 PM Greg Thompson wrote: > Greg, > I like this idea of "federated development" but am also fond of "viral > development". The latter has the advantage of feeling more "organic" > ("federation" has connotations of "bureaucracy" to me - e.g. Star Wars), > but on the other hand, "viral" is not exactly a catchy (!) concept in > positive terms (e.g., computer viruses, cold viruses...). > -greg > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Greg Mcverry > wrote: > > > This is common in the US as well. Especially in border states with > Mexico. > > Recently a wave of unaccompanied minors (5 and 6 years old) trying to > > immigrate without parents by traveling 1,000 of miles. > > > > There is some recent research in the literacy community around > > transnational literacies but in terms of activism you have DREAM > advocates > > and not enough.... > > > > The same event sparked a wave of xenophobia that ended immigration reform > > in US. > > > > In terms of the original post fidelity and scale have always been the > > impossible dream of outcome based research. > > > > The same is true of education reform and development in general. > > > > Instead of fidelity I think we should try for federated development. > Have a > > shared goal but allow for the plan to be forked and localized. > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From rsanto@indiana.edu Wed Mar 18 15:38:22 2015 From: rsanto@indiana.edu (Rafi Santo) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 18:38:22 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Engestrom's idea of "wildfire" activities seems like it might be relevant to this discussion of "anti-scale", viral and/or federated models. Wildfire activities are explicitly messy and locally contextualized, similar to peer production/open source, characterized by "expansive swarming" around practices/ideas, but do have a logic to them, if semi-linear, in terms of advancing practice and knowledge. http://www.helsinki.fi/cradle/documents/Engestrom%20Publ/Wildfire%20activities%20paper.pdf On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 6:22 PM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > Greg, > > I borrow heavily from the software development field that has been > influencing my thinking on providing open access education. > > Most specifically are Mozilla's efforts to teach the web. We have a goal of > 1,500 volunteers in 500 cities running Mozilla Web Clubs to help the next > billion get online. > > This effort is especially focused on the developing world that is going > mobile first. > > As a community we have been trying to establish a set of competencies and > skills , develop curriculum > , > build > a club system and a > badging platform. > > So I use the term federated instead of viral on purpose. Viral is more the > user sharing content and we are shaping content for the user to fork and > adapt. > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 5:37 PM Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Greg, > > I like this idea of "federated development" but am also fond of "viral > > development". The latter has the advantage of feeling more "organic" > > ("federation" has connotations of "bureaucracy" to me - e.g. Star Wars), > > but on the other hand, "viral" is not exactly a catchy (!) concept in > > positive terms (e.g., computer viruses, cold viruses...). > > -greg > > > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Greg Mcverry > > wrote: > > > > > This is common in the US as well. Especially in border states with > > Mexico. > > > Recently a wave of unaccompanied minors (5 and 6 years old) trying to > > > immigrate without parents by traveling 1,000 of miles. > > > > > > There is some recent research in the literacy community around > > > transnational literacies but in terms of activism you have DREAM > > advocates > > > and not enough.... > > > > > > The same event sparked a wave of xenophobia that ended immigration > reform > > > in US. > > > > > > In terms of the original post fidelity and scale have always been the > > > impossible dream of outcome based research. > > > > > > The same is true of education reform and development in general. > > > > > > Instead of fidelity I think we should try for federated development. > > Have a > > > shared goal but allow for the plan to be forked and localized. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Rafi Santo Project Lead Hive Research Lab hiveresearchlab.org A project of Indiana University and New York University Indiana University - Learning Sciences From Peg.Griffin@att.net Wed Mar 18 15:47:12 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 18:47:12 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" In-Reply-To: References: <001b01d06185$77f1e2f0$67d5a8d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <006d01d061cd$7a50a5c0$6ef1f140$@att.net> Thanks, David. Yes, the "hukou" is a part of the reason that the parents can't take the children with them and put them in a city public school. The catch 22 is that the places the children have "hukou" for are losing the public schools (all those people moving to the city, don't you know, so be rational and close those village schools). So the children can't go to the schools that the parents attended where they learned enough to get jobs in the city... -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 5:07 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" Peg: I'm afraid I don't know of any activists you could contact in China. But it seems to me that the account you have of the "left behind" families leaves out one possibly relevant piece of information. China still has a system of "hukou", which involves local registration, and functions something like the internal passport system did in Tsarist Russia and also in Vygotsky's time. For example, my wife's hukou was in the western city of Xi'an. This meant that she couldn't legally move to the east, towards the coast, and still receive social services, such as schooling for any children she might have (because hukou is matrilineal). People from the countryside cannot receive urban "hukou" unless they either join the army or are admitted to university (and if they go to university they are often required to return to the countryside upon graduation unless their alma mater can offer them employment). Without "hukou", employment is not legal (although possible). Schooling is out of the question. As usual, there are ways around these things. My niece's hukou was in a remote rural area, because my sister-in-law was born there, but after many years of struggle, my brother-in-law was able to purchase an urban hukou for her, and she now goes to school in the city with other children. The obvious parallel for Westerners with no experience of internal passports is the external passport system--while capital can move freely in the west, in order to move across borders, a worker has to arrange work with an employer, and if the worker does so in a way that is perceived by the government or the locals as "illegal" or undocumented then they may not receive education and social services and they may have to leave children behind as a result. This happens in the USA along the border, and the demagogic campaigns carried out around immigration in places like Arizona are designed to aggravate it to the point where "self-deportation" occurs. (You remember that in the last election, Mitt Romney crafted a whole immigration policy around the persecution of foreign-born workers, especially those with children.) I think that, as in the West, the main activist groups you will find around this issue in China will be lobbying within the government and within Communist Party for the abolition of "hukou". In some areas of southern China (e.g. the Pearl River delta, there are actually businessmen who find it hard to round up cheap labor now. So there are lots of wealthy industrialists in the CCP now who would like to see the end of hukou and more flexibility in the labor market, just as some entrepreneurs in Texas would like to see immigration reform--it will greatly assist the process of driving down workers' wages. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 18 March 2015 at 23:11, Peg Griffin wrote: > This thread seems good to ask for advice for this situation: A young > woman from China is pursuing a Master's Degree in Early Childhood > Education in the US in a program that provides language and "hidden > curriculum" sorts of transition support for students visiting from > other countries. She is very concerned about the "left behind > children" in China. There is much coverage about these > families/children in Chinese media and some in US and some other > countries. I'm hoping that someone on the list knows of an activist > and/or research groups that this young woman might locate (in any > country). She perseveres and tries hard to find ways toward the solution side of problems. > > The problem as she explains it (and as we have been able to find > information from na?ve web searching) is this: Parents move (from > rural areas or less prosperous often smaller cities) to larger cities > where they can make closer to a living wage for the family. Children > are left behind, usually with grandparents, because finances and legal > requirements make it a problem for them to go with the parents. BUT, > at the same time, in the places where the children are left behind, > public schools the parents went to have been closed or are closing; > the alternatives require tuition as well as book and supply fees. > Money the parents send back to those left behind help with increasing > costs of food, shelter, health, clothing but can seldom spread enough > for tuition so children -- especially after grade > 2 -- have no schooling. Travel costs usually prohibit more than one > meeting a year of all three generations. Phone communication is often > once a week, though. A Chinese term usually translated as "left > behind" is used a great deal in discussions in China about this. > > Any references to quality readings or people will be greatly appreciated. > PG on behalf of YL > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd > Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 5:28 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" > > Sure, Greg. > > Perhaps the author would benefit from reading Illich, "The siren of > one ambulance can destroy Samaritan attitudes in a whole Chilean town". > > This is simply one example of the failings of formal logic, or as > Illich refers to it, iatrogenesis (note the genetic semantics). > > Huw > > On 18 March 2015 at 03:51, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > I just came across this nice article by Michael Hobbes in the New > Republic: > > > > http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120178/problem-international-deve > > lo > > pment-and-plan-fix-it > > > > In it, he argues against the notion that there are simple big ideas > > that can easily be scaled up in international development. > > > > This seems like an argument that could just as easily have been made > > about education in any major nation state (and he does touch on > > education a number of times, but it isn't at the center of his critique). > > > > Curious if others agree. > > -greg > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Mar 18 16:19:20 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:19:20 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "Scaling up" and "Big ideas" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gregs, I wonder if ?viral development? is at all associated with the idea of ?changing the narrative?. Something catches fire in the public imagination. On a smaller scale, I noticed as a high school student how language leaders among the students could start using a particular turn of phrase and it would take hold in the whole school. Viral.This federated idea might be resonance between a germ cell at different scales, sort of fractal. Henry > On Mar 18, 2015, at 3:34 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > Greg, > I like this idea of "federated development" but am also fond of "viral > development". The latter has the advantage of feeling more "organic" > ("federation" has connotations of "bureaucracy" to me - e.g. Star Wars), > but on the other hand, "viral" is not exactly a catchy (!) concept in > positive terms (e.g., computer viruses, cold viruses...). > -greg > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Greg Mcverry > wrote: > >> This is common in the US as well. Especially in border states with Mexico. >> Recently a wave of unaccompanied minors (5 and 6 years old) trying to >> immigrate without parents by traveling 1,000 of miles. >> >> There is some recent research in the literacy community around >> transnational literacies but in terms of activism you have DREAM advocates >> and not enough.... >> >> The same event sparked a wave of xenophobia that ended immigration reform >> in US. >> >> In terms of the original post fidelity and scale have always been the >> impossible dream of outcome based research. >> >> The same is true of education reform and development in general. >> >> Instead of fidelity I think we should try for federated development. Have a >> shared goal but allow for the plan to be forked and localized. >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Mar 19 14:41:54 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 06:41:54 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <1794094062.7969537.1426407406883.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CAFBC@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <887B70AE-CEC7-48A2-9DCF-B9A57431323B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Some of the images in Greg's response to my post are somewhat unsettling (e.g. the black guy eating gruel?). But I think the main problem with it is that, like so much of the uncritical, positivistic, even Whiggish, celebration of the powers of computers, it doesn't deal with the distinction between (essentially gradualistic) improvements in the instruments of production and (essentially catastrophic) changes in the relations of production. Yes, the printing press did vasty increase the number and variety of texts that were available to readers. But in some ways the most revolutionary transformation of Europe was brought about by the publication of just one of those titles. When Gutenberg invented the printing press, he enabled every thinking Christian to own a copy of the Bible. Before that moment, the only tangible proof of the Christian doctrine was the existence of the world itself; everything else had to come through the Church. Now, suddenly everyone had the same texts that the Church had been mediating for hundreds of years--and it turned out to be a set of texts much like any other--passages of history, long chapters of legal codifications, beautiful pornography in the Song of Solomon, and even individual psalms that combined exquisite lyricism with disgusting exhortations to genocide (Psalm 137). I think that the the great struggle between Protestant and Catholic, and the underlying struggle between whether language--sacred or profane--inheres in social institutions or reflects the intrinsic architecture of the human mind, dates from then, and has still not been resolved today. But this struggle has been, at bottom, neither a struggle between technologies (oral vs. printed) nor between ideas (dogmatism vs. rationalism); it's been a struggle between living, breathing, fightig and dying human beings. The grist of the struggle was ultimately neither technology nor theology but rather the rise and fall of the absolutist monarchy, and with it the last productive relations of the feudal order. As was recently pointed out on this list, some forms of primitive accumulation from absolutist times (e.g. the role of debt in appropriating surplus value from sectors of the population not engaged in commodity production) have still not disappeared. One of the vulgarizations in Marxism that Stalin introduced in crushing Trotsky to the left of himself and Bukharin to the right was to declare "diamat", or "dialectical materialism" the "official philosophy" of the USSR, making the Soviet state the world's first secular theocracy. In history, this meant the introduction of a rigid set of five stages: primitive communism, barbarism, feudalism, capitalism, socialism, with the distinction between the stages reducible to the instrumentation of production: as Lenin had said, the construction of socialism was to be essentially a matter of adding electrification to the political power of the democratically elected Soviets. By removing the democratically elected Soviets, Stalin made sure that this would be a liberal, Whiggish, gradualistic affair, with no underlying transformation of the relations of power. Interestingly, the same thing has happened in work by Leontiev on the problem of child development known as the crisis. Here's what Vygotsky has to say in his lectures on the crisis which we are currently translating: "These ages (i.e. stable ages--DK) and this type of child development have been studied more completely than ages characterized by a different course of child development (i.e.the crisis--DK). These latter were discovered by empirical paths, one by one, in a haphazard manner, and many have still not been shown by the majority of investigators in systems and are not included in the general periodization of child development. Many authors have even doubted the evidence of the inner necessity of their existence. Many are inclined to take them more as ?maladies? of development, as deviations of the process fromthe normal path, than as internally necessary periods of child development. Almost none of the bourgeois investigators have realized their theoretical signfiicance, and the attempt in our book at their systematization, at their theoretical interpretation, and at their inclusion in the general scheme of child development for this reason should be seen as perhaps the first attempt of this kind." Compare: ?These crises?the three year old crisis, the seven year old crisis, the adolescent crisis, the youth crisis?are always associated with a change of stage. They indicate in clear, obvious form that these changes, these transitions from one stage to another have an inner necessity of their own. The existence of development of crises has long been known and their ?classic? interpretation is that they are caused by the child?s maturing inner characteristics and the contradictions that arise on that soil between it andthe environment. From the standpoint of that interpretation the crises are, of course, inevitable, because these contraditions are inevitable in any conditions. There is nothing more false, however, in the theory of the development of the child?s psyche than this idea. In fact, crises are not at all inevitable accomplishments of psychic development. It is not the crises which are inevitable, but the turning points or breaks, the qualitative shifts in ddevelopment. The crisis, on the contrary, is evidence that a turning point or shift has not been made in time. There need by no crises at all if the child?s psychic development does not take shape spontaneously but in a rationally controlled process, controlled upbringing.? (pp. 398-399) Leontiev, A.N. (1981). Problems of the Development of the Mind. Progress: Moscow David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 18 March 2015 at 10:11, Greg Mcverry wrote: > Some one questioned if computers made a difference: > > I decided to have a little fun with my response: > http://jgregorymcverry.com/computers-versus-printing-press/ > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 5:43 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > > Yes, that was Leonard Bernstein's theory--that "mmm" was the first word > in > > every language, and also the first musical note. Vygotsky prefers Lear: > > "When we are born we cry that we are come/To this great stage of fools." > > And the girl in the advertisement for lunch boxes was certainly agreeing > > with Vygotsky: "ing! ing!" is how Koreans transcribe the sound of > weeping. > > > > Last night in my class on "Teaching Young Learners" we got to discussing > > what Vygotsky means when he distinguishes so starkly between the naming > > function and the signifying function of language: how exactly are they > > different? One way to look at it is to say that naming is sticking labels > > on physical objects--that is why children who do this are convinced that > > names are part of the object itself, the way that a label is part of a > milk > > carton and the carton is what gives shape to the milk within. Signifying, > > on the other hand is just like naming, but the named "object" is purely > > imaginary--something like a mathematical set--a concept. > > > > The problem is that putting it this way makes it all about the object > that > > is being named or signified, and I'm pretty sure that's not what Vygotsky > > is thinking about--or anyway it's not the only thing that he's thinking > > about. Both Piaget and Vygotsky take as their starting point the > > interesting fact that the child rejects the idea of calling the sun > "moon" > > and the moon "sun", and claims that the sort of a cow that you can call > > "dog" will have little horns and give a little milk (not dog milk but cow > > milk). > > > > But as usual from the same fact they draw totally different conclusions. > > Piaget's conclusion is that the child will eventually have this illusion > > crushed and come to terms with the meaninglessness of the connection > > between sign and signifier on this great stage of fools. Vygotsky's > > conclusion is that there really IS a set of words of which this true! > > > > First of all, we have words like "blackbird" and "sidewalk" where an > > important, if epiphenomenal trait of the object really is encoded in the > > word itself. Of course, you can complain that there isn't anything > "black" > > in the word black, but that doesn't change the fact that if you want to > go > > around call bluebirds "blackbirds" and sidewalks "center-runs" then you > are > > going to have to make major changes to more than one word in your > language > > system. And, as Vygotsky demonstrates, if you go back in the etymology > of > > almost ANY word you will find something like a blackbird or a > > sidewalk--even the word "cabbage" means "head" in its Latin root. > > > > Secondly, as Rod points out, there is onomatopoiea and what we in Korean > > call "ouiseongeo", or words which are intended to imitate the sounds made > > by actions and thereby signify the action (e.g. "crash", "smash", "bash", > > "mash", etc.). Here the sound of the word is surely part of the meaning, > > and here too the child is right when he/she insists on the > > non-interchangeability of words. Both "shhhhhh" and "Ker-splash!" have > the > > sound /sh/ in them, but that doesn't make them interchangeable. > > > > So Vygotsky turns the whole question rather on its head: where and when > > does the interchangeability of terms arise? When do we learn to look at > > language and laugh that we are come to this great stage of tomfoolery? > > > > Perhaps here: > > > > > > http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/paintings/rene-magritte- > > ceci-nest-pas-une-pomme-5650359-details.aspx > > > > > > Magritte's painting is not an apple or even part of an apple; it's a > > painting of an apple. In the same way, if a child plays "war", the child > is > > not a soldier but a "painting" of a soldier. It's this negative > > relationship between the sign and the thing which is abstractly > everywhere > > the same, and everywhere abstractly interchangeable: all words are NOT > the > > things that they signify. > > > > There's a very beautiful and bloody children's story in Korea called "Sun > > and Moon" about two children with those names. They are orphaned by a > > tiger, but they take revenge on the tiger by climbing up ropes to heaven, > > offering a rotten rope to the tiger, who tries to follow and kills > himself. > > Once in heaven, the girl named Moon at first insists on shining all day > and > > the older brother named Sun shines at night only. But after the first day > > on her new job, Moon decides that she is shy--and she would rather have > her > > older brother's job. So they switch. After all, it's just role play. > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > On 17 March 2015 at 01:39, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > > > Hello All, > > > The following has occurred to me as I follow this thread: > > > -Perhaps it would be useful to think of computers as on the > > > environmental-literacy side of literacy, as contrasted with a more > > intimate > > > book-in-hand side of literacy. Vera John-Steiner, in her Notebooks of > the > > > Mind, discusses how writers choose their tools: Some write long hand; > > > others type. The mix of technologies seem to affect the reading/writing > > > process in very deep ways. I wonder if this sheds any light on the tool > > vs. > > > sign distinction elaborated in Andy?s Academia article on tool vs. > sign. > > > -No one, as far as I remember, has discussed on this web the > differences > > > between logographic (Chinsese) and alphabetic writing systems. Again, > > this > > > seems to me to be a continuum, given the capacity, on the one hand, of > > > Chinese literacy to write phonetically and the flood, on the other > hand, > > of > > > icons in alphabet-based writing (take the McDonald arches). > > > -Rod?s post reminds me of a long-standing problem I have with > > l?Arbitraire > > > du Signe ?law? that there is no necessary connection between the > > > phonological pole and the semantic pole, with the relatively unusual > > > exception of onomatopeia or the MMMMM/YUCK distinction made by little > > > gourmands. The best counter evidence, it seems to me, are the choices > we > > > make in how much our writing in English draws on vocabulary of > > Anglo-Saxon > > > origin and how much of Latinate origin. > > > I?m not sure if I am hinting at a wider issue of how much culture > > reflects > > > differences BETWEEN cultures and how much reflects the way in which the > > > mixes of technology of each culture point towards universal tendencies > of > > > seeking balance, some sort of homeostasis. Some may think I?ve bit off > > more > > > than I can chew. Yuck or Yum? > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 16, 2015, at 2:59 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > I wish I could remember where I read that the first 'words' are > > > variations of 'yum' or 'mmm' for approval and 'yuk' for disgust - > > > exaggerated vocalisations oral 'taking in' - ingesting what is > > pleasurable > > > and spitting out, ejecting what is unpalateable. So is 'ing' Chinese > for > > > 'mmm'? > > > > > > > > Rod > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg > > > > Sent: 16 March 2015 08:28 > > > > To: Haydi Zulfei; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference > > > > > > > > This morning I went out shopping and noticed a billboard selling > > > lunchboxes. It featured a young girl whose boyfriend was obviously off > > > doing military service (two and half years of rigorously > > institutionalized > > > bullying and beatings); she was dressed up in a military uniform and > > eating > > > out of a lunchbox in solidarity with the absent one, and the sound she > > was > > > making was "ing! ing!" > > > > > > > > My sentiments exactly! I have been kicking myself, if not quite > beating > > > myself with a shovel, for arguing yesterday that consonants are > > > differentiated before vowels. I am currently reading a set of studies > > > coming out of China that try to argue this, and try to explain it on > the > > > grounds of the greater salience of consonant sounds. But vowels and > > > consonants are not part of Chinese; the smallest meaningful difference > in > > > Chinese is a whole syllable. It's just another example of the > imperialism > > > of Western linguistics--everything has to be treated as if it had, deep > > in > > > its guts, a Western alphabet trying to get out. > > > > > > > > Even in English, it seems to me that vowels and consonants have to be > > > differentiated side by side, out of some prior sound that is neither. > And > > > that prior sound? Well, actually, it's the most common sound in the > > Chinese > > > repertoire--the naseopharyngealized semi-vowel that babies make when > they > > > are born, which rhymes with "ing". > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > On 15 March 2015 at 17:16, Haydi Zulfei > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Thanks , David ! I'm following the case using what you wrote as > clues > > > >> to clarification . > > > >> From: David Kellogg > > > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > >> Sent: Sunday, 15 March 2015, 1:12:48 > > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference > > > >> > > > >> Well, of course, from the child's point of view, "Baby Bites" is > > > >> probably not even monosemous, merely alliterative. > > > >> > > > >> As Haydi says--how does the child avoid Buridanism before speech? I > > > >> take it that what he means is that in order to master the system, > what > > > >> is required is not simply the mindless internalization of some > purely > > > >> external resource but rather (as in the crises we find in other > forms > > > of development, e.g. > > > >> sociogenesis and even phylogenesis) the constraining of some > > > >> super-productive neoformation that emerges at the interface between > > > >> the child and the environment--that is, the narrowing of the > available > > > >> choices we find in ('autonomous') child language to fit the > > > >> phonological system of the mother tongue (as Halliday points out, > > > >> learning a mother tongue is really learning a second language!). > > > >> > > > >> I think the answer is that the child initially treats speech as > > > >> something that is not even monosemous but merely alliterative--sound > > > without meaning. > > > >> So how does the child master the sounds? According to the genetic > law, > > > >> sounds would be initially constrained by imitation and then > elaborated > > > >> by > > > >> self-imitation: that is, repetition. But how? > > > >> > > > >> Alliteration appears to be clearly differentiated before rhyme in > > > >> English poetry (c.f. "Gawain and the Green Knight"). Ontogenesis > too? > > > >> That would mean that the child is aware of a choice of different > > > >> consonants before the child is aware of a choice of different > vowels, > > > >> and that does seem to be the case. > > > >> > > > >> David Kellogg > > > >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On 15 March 2015 at 01:40, Martin John Packer > > > >> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Nonsense, David, she's reading the list of ingredients printed on > > > >>> the bottom! > > > >>> > > > >>> And isn't "Baby Bites" wonderfully polysemous? > > > >>> > > > >>> Martin > > > >>> > > > >>> On Mar 13, 2015, at 4:17 PM, David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > http://www.greatnewplaces.com/images/Kids/img7189_30122012121700.j > > > >>>> peg > > > >>>> > > > >>>> My students were struck by the fact that the child, surrounded by > > > >>> elaborate > > > >>>> tools not of her own making, seems much more interested in the > > > >>>> objects > > > >> as > > > >>>> objects than in their use as signs. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > ________________________________ > > > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > > > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not > the > > > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > > > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > > it. > > > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > > > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > accepts > > > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan > > emails > > > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > responsibility > > > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > > > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless > accompanied > > > by an official order form. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Mar 19 15:10:40 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 07:10:40 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: no primitive language? In-Reply-To: References: <549E83CB.60802@mira.net> <549E85AD.5040702@mira.net> <549E868C.2020809@mira.net> <6F1EE308-E173-4D4B-B54E-B7D1D59865E6@uniandes.edu.co> <549f1710.0167460a.12bb.7111@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Larry-- Well, of course, Heidegger is another example of the evil men do living after them. But to tell you the truth, I never understood the good that we enterred with Heidegger's bones to begin with, and I particularly never understood the stuff about barrel making and "artifact as tool" vs. "artifact as object". I always just assumed it was part of his phony idealization of German peasants, the fixation on "blood and soil" that made him a Nazi. But I admit that this reading of it is not mine--it's from Adorno ("The Jargon of Authenticity") and Habermas ("The Philosophical Discourse of Modernity"). David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 19 March 2015 at 07:00, Larry Purss wrote: > David, > I could not resist citing you one more time on your conclusion to Saussure: > > And getting linguistics right takes a lot more than just one life. > Saussure "corrected" his brilliant work on historical linguistics by > utterly turning his back on culture and on history, and in so doing > invented twentieth century structuralism. In his defense, he did tell his > wife and his students to burn the mansuscript of his General Course and not > to publish it; Bally and Sechehaye disobeyed his dying wishes. As Larry's > article suggests, he tried, too late, to correct his correction. And so > the evil men do lives after them. > > David, it is this "reciprocal approach" captured in your commentary that I > find fascinating. > > Now to return to the notion of "tool" and "sign" and "object". > > Heidegger has explored this "theme" with his understanding that a "tool" > [such as a hammer] in its function AS "tool" disappears [or is concealed] > within the "lived horizon of participating within worlds" He calls this > "approach" "tool" as "ready to hand". > > Heidigger, however, contrast this "approach" [as tools] to the "approach" > of making "assertions about tools". THIS assertive mode where we point to > the tool AS "object" creates a profound shift in how we participate in > cultural-historical "worlds" This moving away from understanding artifacts > AS "tools" and towards approaching these same artifacts AS "objects" is the > move to artifacts as being "on hand" [in contrast to ready to hand]. > > Heidegger says there is a profound shift in the meaning of "as" > > The objective "as" and the existential-hermeneutical "as". > If interested this came from page 138 of Richard Palmer's book > [Hermeneutics]. Palmer reads hermeneutics as historical "responses" to > previous works or projects. I am interested in Gadamer's "response to > Heidegger" > > Larry > > > On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 2:00 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > Verily, the good men do is oft interred with their bones.... Saussure > > was a brilliant historical linguist, who made amazing contributions to > the > > reconstruction of proto-Indo-european, the language which ties our own > > tongues to Sanskrit. As part of these contributions, he was faced with > the > > task of working out the vowel and consonant system of a language that > > nobody had spoken for thousands of years. How did he do it? > > > > By inventing structuralism. He figured out, quite correctly, that in > order > > to be comprehensible, phonological systems had to have perceptible > > oppositions. So if you had a high front vowel like "i" at one end of your > > mouth you had to have a low back vowel like "ou" at the other end. By > > working backwards from the sounds we use today, Saussure was able to > > reconstruct a whole system of laryngeal contrasts that probably haven't > > been used in two thousand years. Fifty years AFTER his death, Hittite > texts > > were discovered that show that his guess was probably right. > > > > Now, here's the mystery. After a brilliant career as a historical > linguist, > > Saussure suddenly declared war on history and decided to try to > construct a > > linguistics that was, rather like the extant ideas of mathematics, a > purely > > abstract and timeless system. Not ony sounds but also words and even > > grammatical features like tense were to be understood in relation to each > > other, not in relation to any actual human needs. > > > > This turns out to explain the relationship of SOUNDING to WORDING quite > > well. But as Larry points out (and as Vygotsky points out in his > discussion > > of why you can call a dog a cow and a cow a dog but you can't call a > > blackbird a redwing and vice versa) it is a really terrible way to think > > about the relationship of WORDING to MEANING. In other words, > arbitrariness > > is a good way to talk about phonology, and a terrible way to talk about > > grammar. There's a very good reason why verbs have tenses and nouns have > > plurals. You can do it the other way around if you really want (and in > fact > > English, unlike Korean, does have the annoying property of using "s" on > > singular VERBS and then using 's' on plural NOUNS). But not so much and > not > > for long: the relationship of wording to meaning is just not conventional > > in the way that the relationship of wording to sounding is. > > > > And that brings us back to Andy's question. We can argue, as Saussure > did, > > that there are certain sounds that are "primitive" (Saussure believed > that > > laryngeal sounds were energy consuming and died out as a result, and I > > suppose you could make the same argument for click languages like > > isiXhosa). But when we make this argument we should be clear that what we > > are calling "primitive" is really the baroque--a kind of extravagance > that > > some societies choose to lavish on language and others prefer to expend > on > > furniture. It is much harder to argue that some words are more primitive > > than others simply because wordings evolve in social settings (anybody > who > > has tried to cook Chinese food in an English speaking environment will > tell > > you that English, despite its very rich vocabulary for roasting, baking, > > grilling, etc, is not a good language for frying , while Chinese is > exactly > > the opposite, and it's easy to imagine that our vocabulary would be > rather > > primitive for describing hunting conditions in the Kalahari). And at the > > level of grammar, which is by its very nature systemic, this argument is > > simply impossible. > > > > Here is the kernel of truth in Chomsky's idea that all languages, on an > > abstract level, have the same grammar, and Derrida's comment that we all > > speak only one language but the language we speak is not one. As Butzkamm > > puts it, you learn language exactly once; it just takes your whole life > to > > get it right. > > > > And getting linguistics right takes a lot more than just one life. > > Saussure "corrected" his brilliant work on historical linguistics by > > utterly turning his back on culture and on history, and in so doing > > invented twentieth century structuralism. In his defense, he did tell his > > wife and his students to burn the mansuscript of his General Course and > not > > to publish it; Bally and Sechehaye disobeyed his dying wishes. As Larry's > > article suggests, he tried, too late, to correct his correction. And so > > the evil men do lives after them. > > > > David Kelllogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > On 28 December 2014 at 05:23, wrote: > > > > > I wrote out a section of an article by Franson Manjali exploring the > > > *social* and the *cognitive* in Saussure?s understanding of language. > It > > > may add to this conversation on the lexical and the grammatical aspects > > of > > > language. It is only one page I quoted but the article is fascinating > > > exploring the themes of more and less arbitrary systems of language and > > its > > > regularity. > > > > > > Annalisa, the beginning of the article explores Saussure?s debt to the > > > Vedic scholars of language. > > > > > > > > > The article is published at [Texto! Volume XVll, number 3, (2012). I > > could > > > add more if others are interested, or the linguists among us could > answer > > > Franson Manjali reading of the *social* > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Martin John Packer > > > Sent: ?Saturday?, ?December? ?27?, ?2014 ?3?:?57? ?AM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David, I know you know more about this than I know.... but the debate > > > today centers on the Pirah?, no? Do they have color terms? Do they have > > > number terms? Do they have recursion? > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > On Dec 27, 2014, at 5:35 AM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > > > > > Well, of course Carol's really right, Andy. We need to say what we > mean > > > by > > > > primitive. Does it mean that the language is historically young? In > > that > > > > case, the most primitive language is probably modern Hebrew. Does it > > mean > > > > that the language is grammatically simple? Which aspect of the > grammar? > > > > > > > > Let's take case, since this is Vygotsky's model for linguistic > > complexity > > > > in the Lectures. Annaluisa will tell you about Sanskrit's eight > cases; > > > > modern Tamil has seven; Greek and Latin had about six. Tsez, in the > > > > mountains of the Caucasus, has 64 cases (mostly locatives). > > > > > > > > English is probably the most primitive languages in the world from > this > > > > point of view; it has a distinction between "I" and "me" and "he" and > > > "him" > > > > but that's about it. > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27 December 2014 at 19:14, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Thanks, Carol. :) > > > >> I am OK from here then. > > > >> Much appreciated. > > > >> Andy > > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >> *Andy Blunden* > > > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Carol Macdonald wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Syntax, semantics. pragmatics, phonology, discourse orientation: > they > > > >>> just give their own version of these aspects. > > > >>> > > > >>> On 27 December 2014 at 12:10, Andy Blunden > > > >>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> Thanks, Carol. > > > >>> Can those "key characteristics" be given in a few lines? > > > >>> Andy > > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >>> ------------ > > > >>> *Andy Blunden* > > > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Carol Macdonald wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> Andy > > > >>> > > > >>> It's true. Languages all share key characteristics. > > > >>> > > > >>> Carol > > > >>> > > > >>> On 27 December 2014 at 12:02, Andy Blunden < > ablunden@mira.net > > > >>> > > >>> >> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> I have heard, and I believe it to be the case, that > there > > > >>> is no > > > >>> such thing as a "primitive language." > > > >>> I am not talking about the "language" of children raised > > in > > > >>> isolation, or the "home sign" of deaf children, I mean > > > >>> among the > > > >>> languages of actual historical peoples. > > > >>> I would just appreciate that if this is wrong, could > > > >>> someone on > > > >>> this list who knows about this kind of thing disabuse > me. > > > >>> Otherwise I will assume this to be factual. > > > >>> > > > >>> Thanks > > > >>> Andy > > > >>> -- ------------------------------ > > > >>> ------------------------------------------ > > > >>> *Andy Blunden* > > > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > > >>> Developmental psycholinguist > > > >>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: > > > >>> Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> -- > > > >>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > > >>> Developmental psycholinguist > > > >>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: > > Department > > > of > > > >>> Linguistics, Unisa > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Thu Mar 19 16:04:17 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 23:04:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <1794094062.7969537.1426407406883.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CAFBC@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <887B70AE-CEC7-48A2-9DCF-B9A57431323B@gmail.com> Message-ID: David, Thank you for the response. Never thought about the power of one book had on one continent and then the world. The Bible was used as a tool of liberation, enlightenment, slavery, power by the state, and learning. Good point. Though I disagree that our critical responses to power have to be verbocentric. Computers have pointed out the obvious that symbol systems used for meaning making go beyond the word. Lets think about the images I used: *The first image *is a very popular image in the genre of "reactionary gifs." It is is scene from a movie involving a popular American actor and comedian. It is used as a sense of shock or surprise, and like most reactionary gifs in a very hyperbolic way. I see the genres and cultures that exists because of the computer to be one point for compute over the printing press. Reactionary gifs are just one part of many cultures that can now network online. The genre is so popular that the Speaker of the House (third in line for President in US) sent out a reactionary gif rebuttal to President Obama's plan for free college education: We do our identity work in new ways because of the web. That set from The Speaker contain a famous pop star. The obvious connotation is Republican outreach to tech and youth. Given your points about the Bible, Martin Luther filing the world's most famous customer complaint, and the fall of monarchy I can see you an Arab Spring and call the score 1-1. *The second set of images* played off the tortoise and hare to compare the scope and speed at which the Web spread compared to the printing press. *The next image compares* the amount of digital information stored in the library of congress versus the amount of digital information created. If we consider them both, the book and the computer, tools for external storage the computer A clear 2-1 in favor of computer. *The next few images *were links to either mutlimodal poems I have written or remixes of academic work. These were in relation to the ideas of how the printing press changed the unit of analysis. I think the computer requires the same rethinking. A return of non-verbocentric symbol systems. I must admit this is where my n00b status starts to show. I originally joined XMCA bc my ed psych program had great thinkers in the field of learning sciences, and situated cognition, but no strong Vygotsky and CHAT. So I do not have a complete understanding of linguistics to argue the unique ways of making meaning the computer has enabled. Instead I just do my identity and thinking production in images and sounds. That would leave it at 3-2. *In your reply *you argue that the printing press had a gradual effect on production and the computer a catastrophic effect. I thought the question was which had a BIGGER effect and not a BETTER effect. *In terms of production* this clearly has to be the computer. There is not one component of human activity that has not been shaped by the computer. Transportation, food production, migration patterns, shift in economic value. All of these were altered by the computer. Where does that the score? I wonder if it shouldn't be the computer or the printing press at all but writing itself. It was the genesis tool of all the external storage and symbol systems. It has accelerated at a spectacular pace in human race. More efficient tools for writing replace less efficient ones. Paper the cunieform, printing press vs scrolls, word processor vs typewrite. n each iteration the window between releases shrunk. Then the computer. I Now then things changed. New tools for meaning making emerge every day that no longer supplant older tools but supplement and co-exist. Facebook, Twittter, youtube, blogs...more people are writing more words than any single point in history and this growth will not stop. Behind it all is a set of universal directions that render bits into symbols. Code is the ultimate lingua franca. On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 5:44 PM David Kellogg wrote: > Some of the images in Greg's response to my post are somewhat unsettling > (e.g. the black guy eating gruel?). But I think the main problem with it > is that, like so much of the uncritical, positivistic, even > Whiggish, celebration of the powers of computers, it doesn't deal with the > distinction between (essentially gradualistic) improvements in the > instruments of production and (essentially catastrophic) changes in the > relations of production. > > Yes, the printing press did vasty increase the number and variety of texts > that were available to readers. But in some ways the most revolutionary > transformation of Europe was brought about by the publication of just one > of those titles. When Gutenberg invented the printing press, he enabled > every thinking Christian to own a copy of the Bible. Before that moment, > the only tangible proof of the Christian doctrine was the existence of the > world itself; everything else had to come through the Church. Now, suddenly > everyone had the same texts that the Church had been mediating for hundreds > of years--and it turned out to be a set of texts much like any > other--passages of history, long chapters of legal codifications, beautiful > pornography in the Song of Solomon, and even individual psalms that > combined exquisite lyricism with disgusting exhortations to genocide (Psalm > 137). > > I think that the the great struggle between Protestant and Catholic, and > the underlying struggle between whether language--sacred or > profane--inheres in social institutions or reflects the intrinsic > architecture of the human mind, dates from then, and has still not been > resolved today. But this struggle has been, at bottom, neither a struggle > between technologies (oral vs. printed) nor between ideas (dogmatism vs. > rationalism); it's been a struggle between living, breathing, fightig and > dying human beings. The grist of the struggle was ultimately > neither technology nor theology but rather the rise and fall of the > absolutist monarchy, and with it the last productive relations of > the feudal order. As was recently pointed out on this list, some forms of > primitive accumulation from absolutist times (e.g. the role of debt in > appropriating surplus value from sectors of the population not engaged in > commodity production) have still not disappeared. > > One of the vulgarizations in Marxism that Stalin introduced in crushing > Trotsky to the left of himself and Bukharin to the right was to declare > "diamat", or "dialectical materialism" the "official philosophy" of the > USSR, making the Soviet state the world's first secular theocracy. In > history, this meant the introduction of a rigid set of five stages: > primitive communism, barbarism, feudalism, capitalism, socialism, with the > distinction between the stages reducible to the instrumentation of > production: as Lenin had said, the construction of socialism was to > be essentially a matter of adding electrification to the political power of > the democratically elected Soviets. By removing the democratically elected > Soviets, Stalin made sure that this would be a liberal, Whiggish, > gradualistic affair, with no underlying transformation of the relations of > power. > > Interestingly, the same thing has happened in work by Leontiev on the > problem of child development known as the crisis. Here's what Vygotsky has > to say in his lectures on the crisis which we are currently translating: > > "These ages (i.e. stable ages--DK) and this type of child development have > been studied more completely than ages characterized by a different course > of child development (i.e.the crisis--DK). These latter were discovered by > empirical paths, one by one, in a haphazard manner, and many have still not > been shown by the majority of investigators in systems and are not included > in the general periodization of child development. Many authors have even > doubted the evidence of the inner necessity of their existence. Many are > inclined to take them more as ?maladies? of development, as deviations of > the process fromthe normal path, than as internally necessary periods of > child development. Almost none of the bourgeois investigators have realized > their theoretical signfiicance, and the attempt in our book at their > systematization, at their theoretical interpretation, and at their > inclusion in the general scheme of child development for this reason should > be seen as perhaps the first attempt of this kind." > > Compare: > > ?These crises?the three year old crisis, the seven year old crisis, the > adolescent crisis, the youth crisis?are always associated with a change of > stage. They indicate in clear, obvious form that these changes, these > transitions from one stage to another have an inner necessity of their > own. The existence of development of crises has long been known and their > ?classic? interpretation is that they are caused by the child?s maturing > inner characteristics and the contradictions that arise on that soil > between it andthe environment. From the standpoint of that interpretation > the crises are, of course, inevitable, because these contraditions are > inevitable in any conditions. There is nothing more false, however, in the > theory of the development of the child?s psyche than this idea. In fact, > crises are not at all inevitable accomplishments of psychic development. It > is not the crises which are inevitable, but the turning points or breaks, > the qualitative shifts in ddevelopment. The crisis, on the contrary, is > evidence that a turning point or shift has not been made in time. There > need by no crises at all if the child?s psychic development does not take > shape spontaneously but in a rationally controlled process, controlled > upbringing.? (pp. 398-399) > > Leontiev, A.N. (1981). Problems of the Development of the Mind. Progress: > Moscow > > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > On 18 March 2015 at 10:11, Greg Mcverry wrote: > > > Some one questioned if computers made a difference: > > > > I decided to have a little fun with my response: > > http://jgregorymcverry.com/computers-versus-printing-press/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 5:43 PM David Kellogg > > wrote: > > > > > Yes, that was Leonard Bernstein's theory--that "mmm" was the first word > > in > > > every language, and also the first musical note. Vygotsky prefers Lear: > > > "When we are born we cry that we are come/To this great stage of > fools." > > > And the girl in the advertisement for lunch boxes was certainly > agreeing > > > with Vygotsky: "ing! ing!" is how Koreans transcribe the sound of > > weeping. > > > > > > Last night in my class on "Teaching Young Learners" we got to > discussing > > > what Vygotsky means when he distinguishes so starkly between the naming > > > function and the signifying function of language: how exactly are they > > > different? One way to look at it is to say that naming is sticking > labels > > > on physical objects--that is why children who do this are convinced > that > > > names are part of the object itself, the way that a label is part of a > > milk > > > carton and the carton is what gives shape to the milk within. > Signifying, > > > on the other hand is just like naming, but the named "object" is purely > > > imaginary--something like a mathematical set--a concept. > > > > > > The problem is that putting it this way makes it all about the object > > that > > > is being named or signified, and I'm pretty sure that's not what > Vygotsky > > > is thinking about--or anyway it's not the only thing that he's thinking > > > about. Both Piaget and Vygotsky take as their starting point the > > > interesting fact that the child rejects the idea of calling the sun > > "moon" > > > and the moon "sun", and claims that the sort of a cow that you can call > > > "dog" will have little horns and give a little milk (not dog milk but > cow > > > milk). > > > > > > But as usual from the same fact they draw totally different > conclusions. > > > Piaget's conclusion is that the child will eventually have this > illusion > > > crushed and come to terms with the meaninglessness of the connection > > > between sign and signifier on this great stage of fools. Vygotsky's > > > conclusion is that there really IS a set of words of which this true! > > > > > > First of all, we have words like "blackbird" and "sidewalk" where an > > > important, if epiphenomenal trait of the object really is encoded in > the > > > word itself. Of course, you can complain that there isn't anything > > "black" > > > in the word black, but that doesn't change the fact that if you want to > > go > > > around call bluebirds "blackbirds" and sidewalks "center-runs" then you > > are > > > going to have to make major changes to more than one word in your > > language > > > system. And, as Vygotsky demonstrates, if you go back in the etymology > > of > > > almost ANY word you will find something like a blackbird or a > > > sidewalk--even the word "cabbage" means "head" in its Latin root. > > > > > > Secondly, as Rod points out, there is onomatopoiea and what we in > Korean > > > call "ouiseongeo", or words which are intended to imitate the sounds > made > > > by actions and thereby signify the action (e.g. "crash", "smash", > "bash", > > > "mash", etc.). Here the sound of the word is surely part of the > meaning, > > > and here too the child is right when he/she insists on the > > > non-interchangeability of words. Both "shhhhhh" and "Ker-splash!" have > > the > > > sound /sh/ in them, but that doesn't make them interchangeable. > > > > > > So Vygotsky turns the whole question rather on its head: where and when > > > does the interchangeability of terms arise? When do we learn to look at > > > language and laugh that we are come to this great stage of tomfoolery? > > > > > > Perhaps here: > > > > > > > > > http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/paintings/rene-magritte- > > > ceci-nest-pas-une-pomme-5650359-details.aspx > > > > > > > > > Magritte's painting is not an apple or even part of an apple; it's a > > > painting of an apple. In the same way, if a child plays "war", the > child > > is > > > not a soldier but a "painting" of a soldier. It's this negative > > > relationship between the sign and the thing which is abstractly > > everywhere > > > the same, and everywhere abstractly interchangeable: all words are NOT > > the > > > things that they signify. > > > > > > There's a very beautiful and bloody children's story in Korea called > "Sun > > > and Moon" about two children with those names. They are orphaned by a > > > tiger, but they take revenge on the tiger by climbing up ropes to > heaven, > > > offering a rotten rope to the tiger, who tries to follow and kills > > himself. > > > Once in heaven, the girl named Moon at first insists on shining all day > > and > > > the older brother named Sun shines at night only. But after the first > day > > > on her new job, Moon decides that she is shy--and she would rather have > > her > > > older brother's job. So they switch. After all, it's just role play. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > On 17 March 2015 at 01:39, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > The following has occurred to me as I follow this thread: > > > > -Perhaps it would be useful to think of computers as on the > > > > environmental-literacy side of literacy, as contrasted with a more > > > intimate > > > > book-in-hand side of literacy. Vera John-Steiner, in her Notebooks of > > the > > > > Mind, discusses how writers choose their tools: Some write long hand; > > > > others type. The mix of technologies seem to affect the > reading/writing > > > > process in very deep ways. I wonder if this sheds any light on the > tool > > > vs. > > > > sign distinction elaborated in Andy?s Academia article on tool vs. > > sign. > > > > -No one, as far as I remember, has discussed on this web the > > differences > > > > between logographic (Chinsese) and alphabetic writing systems. Again, > > > this > > > > seems to me to be a continuum, given the capacity, on the one hand, > of > > > > Chinese literacy to write phonetically and the flood, on the other > > hand, > > > of > > > > icons in alphabet-based writing (take the McDonald arches). > > > > -Rod?s post reminds me of a long-standing problem I have with > > > l?Arbitraire > > > > du Signe ?law? that there is no necessary connection between the > > > > phonological pole and the semantic pole, with the relatively unusual > > > > exception of onomatopeia or the MMMMM/YUCK distinction made by little > > > > gourmands. The best counter evidence, it seems to me, are the choices > > we > > > > make in how much our writing in English draws on vocabulary of > > > Anglo-Saxon > > > > origin and how much of Latinate origin. > > > > I?m not sure if I am hinting at a wider issue of how much culture > > > reflects > > > > differences BETWEEN cultures and how much reflects the way in which > the > > > > mixes of technology of each culture point towards universal > tendencies > > of > > > > seeking balance, some sort of homeostasis. Some may think I?ve bit > off > > > more > > > > than I can chew. Yuck or Yum? > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 16, 2015, at 2:59 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I wish I could remember where I read that the first 'words' are > > > > variations of 'yum' or 'mmm' for approval and 'yuk' for disgust - > > > > exaggerated vocalisations oral 'taking in' - ingesting what is > > > pleasurable > > > > and spitting out, ejecting what is unpalateable. So is 'ing' Chinese > > for > > > > 'mmm'? > > > > > > > > > > Rod > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg > > > > > Sent: 16 March 2015 08:28 > > > > > To: Haydi Zulfei; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference > > > > > > > > > > This morning I went out shopping and noticed a billboard selling > > > > lunchboxes. It featured a young girl whose boyfriend was obviously > off > > > > doing military service (two and half years of rigorously > > > institutionalized > > > > bullying and beatings); she was dressed up in a military uniform and > > > eating > > > > out of a lunchbox in solidarity with the absent one, and the sound > she > > > was > > > > making was "ing! ing!" > > > > > > > > > > My sentiments exactly! I have been kicking myself, if not quite > > beating > > > > myself with a shovel, for arguing yesterday that consonants are > > > > differentiated before vowels. I am currently reading a set of studies > > > > coming out of China that try to argue this, and try to explain it on > > the > > > > grounds of the greater salience of consonant sounds. But vowels and > > > > consonants are not part of Chinese; the smallest meaningful > difference > > in > > > > Chinese is a whole syllable. It's just another example of the > > imperialism > > > > of Western linguistics--everything has to be treated as if it had, > deep > > > in > > > > its guts, a Western alphabet trying to get out. > > > > > > > > > > Even in English, it seems to me that vowels and consonants have to > be > > > > differentiated side by side, out of some prior sound that is neither. > > And > > > > that prior sound? Well, actually, it's the most common sound in the > > > Chinese > > > > repertoire--the naseopharyngealized semi-vowel that babies make when > > they > > > > are born, which rhymes with "ing". > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > > > On 15 March 2015 at 17:16, Haydi Zulfei < > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Thanks , David ! I'm following the case using what you wrote as > > clues > > > > >> to clarification . > > > > >> From: David Kellogg > > > > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > > >> Sent: Sunday, 15 March 2015, 1:12:48 > > > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference > > > > >> > > > > >> Well, of course, from the child's point of view, "Baby Bites" is > > > > >> probably not even monosemous, merely alliterative. > > > > >> > > > > >> As Haydi says--how does the child avoid Buridanism before speech? > I > > > > >> take it that what he means is that in order to master the system, > > what > > > > >> is required is not simply the mindless internalization of some > > purely > > > > >> external resource but rather (as in the crises we find in other > > forms > > > > of development, e.g. > > > > >> sociogenesis and even phylogenesis) the constraining of some > > > > >> super-productive neoformation that emerges at the interface > between > > > > >> the child and the environment--that is, the narrowing of the > > available > > > > >> choices we find in ('autonomous') child language to fit the > > > > >> phonological system of the mother tongue (as Halliday points out, > > > > >> learning a mother tongue is really learning a second language!). > > > > >> > > > > >> I think the answer is that the child initially treats speech as > > > > >> something that is not even monosemous but merely > alliterative--sound > > > > without meaning. > > > > >> So how does the child master the sounds? According to the genetic > > law, > > > > >> sounds would be initially constrained by imitation and then > > elaborated > > > > >> by > > > > >> self-imitation: that is, repetition. But how? > > > > >> > > > > >> Alliteration appears to be clearly differentiated before rhyme in > > > > >> English poetry (c.f. "Gawain and the Green Knight"). Ontogenesis > > too? > > > > >> That would mean that the child is aware of a choice of different > > > > >> consonants before the child is aware of a choice of different > > vowels, > > > > >> and that does seem to be the case. > > > > >> > > > > >> David Kellogg > > > > >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On 15 March 2015 at 01:40, Martin John Packer > > > > >> > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> Nonsense, David, she's reading the list of ingredients printed on > > > > >>> the bottom! > > > > >>> > > > > >>> And isn't "Baby Bites" wonderfully polysemous? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Martin > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On Mar 13, 2015, at 4:17 PM, David Kellogg > > > > > wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > http://www.greatnewplaces.com/images/Kids/img7189_30122012121700.j > > > > >>>> peg > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> My students were struck by the fact that the child, surrounded > by > > > > >>> elaborate > > > > >>>> tools not of her own making, seems much more interested in the > > > > >>>> objects > > > > >> as > > > > >>>> objects than in their use as signs. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > > > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > > > > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended > solely > > > > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not > > the > > > > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > > > > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely > on > > > it. > > > > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > > > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are > not > > > > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > > accepts > > > > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan > > > emails > > > > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > > responsibility > > > > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > > > > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless > > accompanied > > > > by an official order form. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Mar 19 17:14:03 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 17:14:03 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Crises and stages/ages Message-ID: David --- Picking on just one thread from your multiplex comments in the context of the discussion on printing presses and digital computer ?technologies, i would like to thank you for juxtaposing these? two paragraphs, one from LSV on crises in development, the other from Leontiev. I have made a separate header because I am not agile or learned enough to keep track of both at the same time, the ontogenetic level of analysis is plenty enough for me to try to think systematically about in a single message.. \Vygotsky, (could you give pages in current English version so we enter the relevant portion of the text?): These ages (i.e. stable ages--DK) and this type of child development have been studied more completely than ages characterized by a different course of child development (i.e.the crisis--DK). These latter were discovered by empirical paths, one by one, in a haphazard manner, and many have still not been shown by the majority of investigators in systems and are not included in the general periodization of child development. Many authors have even doubted the evidence of the inner necessity of their existence. Many are inclined to take them more as ?maladies? of development, as deviations of the process fromthe normal path, than as internally necessary periods of child development. Almost none of the bourgeois investigators have realized their theoretical signfiicance, and the attempt in our book at their systematization, at their theoretical interpretation, and at their inclusion in the general scheme of child development for this reason should be seen as perhaps the first attempt of this kind." Compare: ?These crises?the three year old crisis, the seven year old crisis, the adolescent crisis, the youth crisis?are always associated with a change of stage. They indicate in clear, obvious form that these changes, these transitions from one stage to another have an inner necessity of their own. The existence of development of crises has long been known and their ?classic? interpretation is that they are caused by the child?s maturing inner characteristics and the contradictions that arise on that soil between it andthe environment. From the standpoint of that interpretation the crises are, of course, inevitable, because these contradictions are inevitable in any conditions. There is nothing more false, however, in the theory of the development of the child?s psyche than this idea. In fact, crises are not at all inevitable accomplishments of psychic development. It is not the crises which are inevitable, but the turning points or breaks, the qualitative shifts in development. The crisis, on the contrary, is evidence that a turning point or shift has not been made in time. There need by no crises at all if the child?s psychic development does not take shape spontaneously but in a rationally controlled process, controlled upbringing.? (pp. 398-399) Leontiev, A.N. (1981). Problems of the Development of the Mind. Progress: Moscow ?I take the red? text to be the crux of the argument, and the kind of difference we see in the two men's articles about the "problem of the environment." In American developmental psychology the issue of continuities and discontinuities in ontogenetic development continues today the discussion taking place in the 1920's and 1930's. But I have never seen anyone argue that (say) the syndrome of behaviors identified as "the terrible twos" occurs because a turning point has not happened in time, nor that ontogeny is rendered continuous by rational control of parents/society. That, it seems, is the red thread of Stalinism that is so offputting in ANL. I do not love LSV's characterization of non-Soviet psychologists treating such periods "as deviations of the process from the normal path." I am not sure who he is referring to, and perhaps he is right and I just need to dig deeper into the history of European and American developmental psychology. Piaget and Erikson, two Europeans whose work was influential from the 1950/60's don't, at least on the surface, fit this discussion. Maybe they do below the surface, or there are other, allied issue to raised. Several years ago we (you and I and Andy and others) sought to characterize LSV's developmental theory but could not reach agreement. Perhaps it is worth another try. mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Mar 19 18:25:53 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 18:25:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: After sending the note below I encountered the following definition of learning in Simon's *Sciences of the artificial* which I am reading with respect to other (related) matters. *Learning is any change in a system that produces a more or less permanent change in its capacity for adapting to the environment.* The word, development, does not appear in this book. Seems relevant to many long standing discussions of learning and development in this discourse space. mike On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 5:14 PM, mike cole wrote: > David --- > Picking on just one thread from your multiplex comments in the context of > the discussion on printing presses and digital computer > ?technologies, i would like to thank you for juxtaposing these? two > paragraphs, one from LSV on crises in development, the other > from Leontiev. I have made a separate header because I am not agile or > learned enough to keep track of both at the same time, > the ontogenetic level of analysis is plenty enough for me to try to think > systematically about in a single message.. > > \Vygotsky, (could you give pages in current English version so we enter > the relevant portion of the text?): > > These ages (i.e. stable ages--DK) and this type of child development have > been studied more completely than ages characterized by a different course > of child development (i.e.the crisis--DK). These latter were discovered by > empirical paths, one by one, in a haphazard manner, and many have still not > been shown by the majority of investigators in systems and are not included > in the general periodization of child development. Many authors have even > doubted the evidence of the inner necessity of their existence. Many are > inclined to take them more as ?maladies? of development, as deviations of > the process fromthe normal path, than as internally necessary periods of > child development. Almost none of the bourgeois investigators have realized > their theoretical signfiicance, and the attempt in our book at their > systematization, at their theoretical interpretation, and at their > inclusion in the general scheme of child development for this reason should > be seen as perhaps the first attempt of this kind." > > Compare: > > ?These crises?the three year old crisis, the seven year old crisis, the > adolescent crisis, the youth crisis?are always associated with a change of > stage. They indicate in clear, obvious form that these changes, these > transitions from one stage to another have an inner necessity of their > own. The existence of development of crises has long been known and their > ?classic? interpretation is that they are caused by the child?s maturing > inner characteristics and the contradictions that arise on that soil > between it andthe environment. From the standpoint of that interpretation > the crises are, of course, inevitable, because these contradictions are > inevitable in any conditions. There is nothing more false, however, in the > theory of the development of the child?s psyche than this idea. In fact, > crises are not at all inevitable accomplishments of psychic development. It > is not the crises which are inevitable, but the turning points or breaks, > the qualitative shifts in development. The crisis, on the contrary, is > evidence that a turning point or shift has not been made in time. There > need by no crises at all if the child?s psychic development does not take > shape spontaneously but in a rationally controlled process, controlled > upbringing.? (pp. 398-399) > > Leontiev, A.N. (1981). Problems of the Development of the Mind. Progress: > Moscow > > ?I take the red? text to be the crux of the argument, and the kind of > difference we see in the two men's articles > about the "problem of the environment." > > In American developmental psychology the issue of continuities and > discontinuities in ontogenetic development > continues today the discussion taking place in the 1920's and 1930's. But > I have never seen anyone argue that (say) the syndrome > of behaviors identified as "the terrible twos" occurs because a turning > point has not happened in time, nor that ontogeny is rendered continuous by > rational control of parents/society. That, it seems, is the red thread of > Stalinism that is so offputting in ANL. > > I do not love LSV's characterization of non-Soviet psychologists treating > such periods "as deviations of the process from the normal path." I am > not sure who he is referring to, and perhaps he is right and I just need to > dig deeper into the history of European and American developmental > psychology. Piaget and Erikson, two Europeans whose work was influential > from the 1950/60's don't, at least on the surface, fit this discussion. > Maybe they do below the surface, or there are other, allied issue to raised. > > Several years ago we (you and I and Andy and others) sought to > characterize LSV's developmental theory but could not reach agreement. > Perhaps it is worth another try. > > mike > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ablunden@mira.net Thu Mar 19 18:47:39 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:47:39 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <550B7C3B.8060602@mira.net> The distinction I use, Mike, is that in development, not only does a person's activity change, but also that of those in their social surroundings so that the person occupies a new social position or role. Learning is change, without change in your social position. In "Problem of Age" Vygotsky formulates this in terms of change from being an "infant" to "early childhood" or from "early childhood" to being a "pre-school child," etc. Development is a social relation, involving both characteristics of the person and of their environment. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > After sending the note below I encountered the following definition of > learning in Simon's > *Sciences of the artificial* which I am reading with respect to other > (related) matters. > > *Learning is any change in a system that produces a more or less permanent > change in its capacity for adapting to the environment.* > > The word, development, does not appear in this book. > > Seems relevant to many long standing discussions of learning and > development in this discourse space. > > mike > > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 5:14 PM, mike cole wrote: > > >> David --- >> Picking on just one thread from your multiplex comments in the context of >> the discussion on printing presses and digital computer >> ?technologies, i would like to thank you for juxtaposing these? two >> paragraphs, one from LSV on crises in development, the other >> from Leontiev. I have made a separate header because I am not agile or >> learned enough to keep track of both at the same time, >> the ontogenetic level of analysis is plenty enough for me to try to think >> systematically about in a single message.. >> >> \Vygotsky, (could you give pages in current English version so we enter >> the relevant portion of the text?): >> >> These ages (i.e. stable ages--DK) and this type of child development have >> been studied more completely than ages characterized by a different course >> of child development (i.e.the crisis--DK). These latter were discovered by >> empirical paths, one by one, in a haphazard manner, and many have still not >> been shown by the majority of investigators in systems and are not included >> in the general periodization of child development. Many authors have even >> doubted the evidence of the inner necessity of their existence. Many are >> inclined to take them more as ?maladies? of development, as deviations of >> the process fromthe normal path, than as internally necessary periods of >> child development. Almost none of the bourgeois investigators have realized >> their theoretical signfiicance, and the attempt in our book at their >> systematization, at their theoretical interpretation, and at their >> inclusion in the general scheme of child development for this reason should >> be seen as perhaps the first attempt of this kind." >> >> Compare: >> >> ?These crises?the three year old crisis, the seven year old crisis, the >> adolescent crisis, the youth crisis?are always associated with a change of >> stage. They indicate in clear, obvious form that these changes, these >> transitions from one stage to another have an inner necessity of their >> own. The existence of development of crises has long been known and their >> ?classic? interpretation is that they are caused by the child?s maturing >> inner characteristics and the contradictions that arise on that soil >> between it andthe environment. From the standpoint of that interpretation >> the crises are, of course, inevitable, because these contradictions are >> inevitable in any conditions. There is nothing more false, however, in the >> theory of the development of the child?s psyche than this idea. In fact, >> crises are not at all inevitable accomplishments of psychic development. It >> is not the crises which are inevitable, but the turning points or breaks, >> the qualitative shifts in development. The crisis, on the contrary, is >> evidence that a turning point or shift has not been made in time. There >> need by no crises at all if the child?s psychic development does not take >> shape spontaneously but in a rationally controlled process, controlled >> upbringing.? (pp. 398-399) >> >> Leontiev, A.N. (1981). Problems of the Development of the Mind. Progress: >> Moscow >> >> ?I take the red? text to be the crux of the argument, and the kind of >> difference we see in the two men's articles >> about the "problem of the environment." >> >> In American developmental psychology the issue of continuities and >> discontinuities in ontogenetic development >> continues today the discussion taking place in the 1920's and 1930's. But >> I have never seen anyone argue that (say) the syndrome >> of behaviors identified as "the terrible twos" occurs because a turning >> point has not happened in time, nor that ontogeny is rendered continuous by >> rational control of parents/society. That, it seems, is the red thread of >> Stalinism that is so offputting in ANL. >> >> I do not love LSV's characterization of non-Soviet psychologists treating >> such periods "as deviations of the process from the normal path." I am >> not sure who he is referring to, and perhaps he is right and I just need to >> dig deeper into the history of European and American developmental >> psychology. Piaget and Erikson, two Europeans whose work was influential >> from the 1950/60's don't, at least on the surface, fit this discussion. >> Maybe they do below the surface, or there are other, allied issue to raised. >> >> Several years ago we (you and I and Andy and others) sought to >> characterize LSV's developmental theory but could not reach agreement. >> Perhaps it is worth another try. >> >> mike >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> >> > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Mar 19 19:05:27 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 02:05:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages In-Reply-To: <550B7C3B.8060602@mira.net> References: <550B7C3B.8060602@mira.net> Message-ID: That 'change in social situation' interpretation does crop up quite frequently. But for me it is inadequate and misleading. Particularly with phenomena described by the Peter principle. For me, development as a distinction from the broader notion of learning is simply the accommodation of genuine generalisations affording greater reflexivity. This will, by virtue of the qualitative change, result in a different social situation. Rote and mere factual learning can theoretically actually lead to less capacity for adaptation, so Simon may have a particular idea in mind. Incidentally, I tend to pair that text of Simon's with Vicker's 'Art of Judgement'. Some good, more indirect, thinking there too. Huw On 20 March 2015 at 01:47, Andy Blunden wrote: > The distinction I use, Mike, is that in development, not only does a > person's activity change, but also that of those in their social > surroundings so that the person occupies a new social position or role. > Learning is change, without change in your social position. In "Problem of > Age" Vygotsky formulates this in terms of change from being an "infant" to > "early childhood" or from "early childhood" to being a "pre-school child," > etc. Development is a social relation, involving both characteristics of > the person and of their environment. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > mike cole wrote: > >> After sending the note below I encountered the following definition of >> learning in Simon's >> *Sciences of the artificial* which I am reading with respect to other >> (related) matters. >> >> *Learning is any change in a system that produces a more or less permanent >> change in its capacity for adapting to the environment.* >> >> The word, development, does not appear in this book. >> >> Seems relevant to many long standing discussions of learning and >> development in this discourse space. >> >> mike >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 5:14 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> >> >>> David --- >>> Picking on just one thread from your multiplex comments in the context of >>> the discussion on printing presses and digital computer >>> ?technologies, i would like to thank you for juxtaposing these? two >>> paragraphs, one from LSV on crises in development, the other >>> from Leontiev. I have made a separate header because I am not agile or >>> learned enough to keep track of both at the same time, >>> the ontogenetic level of analysis is plenty enough for me to try to think >>> systematically about in a single message.. >>> >>> \Vygotsky, (could you give pages in current English version so we enter >>> the relevant portion of the text?): >>> >>> These ages (i.e. stable ages--DK) and this type of child development have >>> been studied more completely than ages characterized by a different >>> course >>> of child development (i.e.the crisis--DK). These latter were discovered >>> by >>> empirical paths, one by one, in a haphazard manner, and many have still >>> not >>> been shown by the majority of investigators in systems and are not >>> included >>> in the general periodization of child development. Many authors have even >>> doubted the evidence of the inner necessity of their existence. Many are >>> inclined to take them more as ?maladies? of development, as deviations of >>> the process fromthe normal path, than as internally necessary periods of >>> child development. Almost none of the bourgeois investigators have >>> realized >>> their theoretical signfiicance, and the attempt in our book at their >>> systematization, at their theoretical interpretation, and at their >>> inclusion in the general scheme of child development for this reason >>> should >>> be seen as perhaps the first attempt of this kind." >>> >>> Compare: >>> >>> ?These crises?the three year old crisis, the seven year old crisis, the >>> adolescent crisis, the youth crisis?are always associated with a change >>> of >>> stage. They indicate in clear, obvious form that these changes, these >>> transitions from one stage to another have an inner necessity of their >>> own. The existence of development of crises has long been known and their >>> ?classic? interpretation is that they are caused by the child?s maturing >>> inner characteristics and the contradictions that arise on that soil >>> between it andthe environment. From the standpoint of that interpretation >>> the crises are, of course, inevitable, because these contradictions are >>> inevitable in any conditions. There is nothing more false, however, in >>> the >>> theory of the development of the child?s psyche than this idea. In fact, >>> crises are not at all inevitable accomplishments of psychic development. >>> It >>> is not the crises which are inevitable, but the turning points or breaks, >>> the qualitative shifts in development. The crisis, on the contrary, is >>> evidence that a turning point or shift has not been made in time. There >>> need by no crises at all if the child?s psychic development does not take >>> shape spontaneously but in a rationally controlled process, controlled >>> upbringing.? (pp. 398-399) >>> >>> Leontiev, A.N. (1981). Problems of the Development of the Mind. Progress: >>> Moscow >>> >>> ?I take the red? text to be the crux of the argument, and the kind of >>> difference we see in the two men's articles >>> about the "problem of the environment." >>> >>> In American developmental psychology the issue of continuities and >>> discontinuities in ontogenetic development >>> continues today the discussion taking place in the 1920's and 1930's. But >>> I have never seen anyone argue that (say) the syndrome >>> of behaviors identified as "the terrible twos" occurs because a turning >>> point has not happened in time, nor that ontogeny is rendered continuous >>> by >>> rational control of parents/society. That, it seems, is the red thread of >>> Stalinism that is so offputting in ANL. >>> >>> I do not love LSV's characterization of non-Soviet psychologists >>> treating >>> such periods "as deviations of the process from the normal path." I am >>> not sure who he is referring to, and perhaps he is right and I just need >>> to >>> dig deeper into the history of European and American developmental >>> psychology. Piaget and Erikson, two Europeans whose work was influential >>> from the 1950/60's don't, at least on the surface, fit this discussion. >>> Maybe they do below the surface, or there are other, allied issue to >>> raised. >>> >>> Several years ago we (you and I and Andy and others) sought to >>> characterize LSV's developmental theory but could not reach agreement. >>> Perhaps it is worth another try. >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > From ablunden@mira.net Thu Mar 19 19:46:28 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 13:46:28 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages In-Reply-To: References: <550B7C3B.8060602@mira.net> Message-ID: <550B8A04.6050809@mira.net> Ha, ha! Huw, I had never heard of "the Peer Principle" before, but now I've read up on it, it very accurately describes what I have witnessed in a life time in universities! :) But the promotion of people to "their level of incompetence" (something Australia as a nation is going through at the moment!) is a *pathology* of development. The converse pathology is a child who is continued to be treated as a child long after they have outgrown childhood, or staff who massively over-perform their role, but due to extraneous reasons, never get promoted or leave in search of a better position. While the idea of development vs learning does connote ideas of qualitative and quantitative change, I do not believe these abstractions provide a rational understanding of human development. The main thing is that it is always situational. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Huw Lloyd wrote: > That 'change in social situation' interpretation does crop up quite > frequently. But for me it is inadequate and misleading. Particularly with > phenomena described by the Peter principle. > > For me, development as a distinction from the broader notion of learning is > simply the accommodation of genuine generalisations affording greater > reflexivity. This will, by virtue of the qualitative change, result in a > different social situation. > > Rote and mere factual learning can theoretically actually lead to less > capacity for adaptation, so Simon may have a particular idea in mind. > > Incidentally, I tend to pair that text of Simon's with Vicker's 'Art of > Judgement'. Some good, more indirect, thinking there too. > > Huw > > > > On 20 March 2015 at 01:47, Andy Blunden wrote: > > >> The distinction I use, Mike, is that in development, not only does a >> person's activity change, but also that of those in their social >> surroundings so that the person occupies a new social position or role. >> Learning is change, without change in your social position. In "Problem of >> Age" Vygotsky formulates this in terms of change from being an "infant" to >> "early childhood" or from "early childhood" to being a "pre-school child," >> etc. Development is a social relation, involving both characteristics of >> the person and of their environment. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> >>> After sending the note below I encountered the following definition of >>> learning in Simon's >>> *Sciences of the artificial* which I am reading with respect to other >>> (related) matters. >>> >>> *Learning is any change in a system that produces a more or less permanent >>> change in its capacity for adapting to the environment.* >>> >>> The word, development, does not appear in this book. >>> >>> Seems relevant to many long standing discussions of learning and >>> development in this discourse space. >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 5:14 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> David --- >>>> Picking on just one thread from your multiplex comments in the context of >>>> the discussion on printing presses and digital computer >>>> ?technologies, i would like to thank you for juxtaposing these? two >>>> paragraphs, one from LSV on crises in development, the other >>>> from Leontiev. I have made a separate header because I am not agile or >>>> learned enough to keep track of both at the same time, >>>> the ontogenetic level of analysis is plenty enough for me to try to think >>>> systematically about in a single message.. >>>> >>>> \Vygotsky, (could you give pages in current English version so we enter >>>> the relevant portion of the text?): >>>> >>>> These ages (i.e. stable ages--DK) and this type of child development have >>>> been studied more completely than ages characterized by a different >>>> course >>>> of child development (i.e.the crisis--DK). These latter were discovered >>>> by >>>> empirical paths, one by one, in a haphazard manner, and many have still >>>> not >>>> been shown by the majority of investigators in systems and are not >>>> included >>>> in the general periodization of child development. Many authors have even >>>> doubted the evidence of the inner necessity of their existence. Many are >>>> inclined to take them more as ?maladies? of development, as deviations of >>>> the process fromthe normal path, than as internally necessary periods of >>>> child development. Almost none of the bourgeois investigators have >>>> realized >>>> their theoretical signfiicance, and the attempt in our book at their >>>> systematization, at their theoretical interpretation, and at their >>>> inclusion in the general scheme of child development for this reason >>>> should >>>> be seen as perhaps the first attempt of this kind." >>>> >>>> Compare: >>>> >>>> ?These crises?the three year old crisis, the seven year old crisis, the >>>> adolescent crisis, the youth crisis?are always associated with a change >>>> of >>>> stage. They indicate in clear, obvious form that these changes, these >>>> transitions from one stage to another have an inner necessity of their >>>> own. The existence of development of crises has long been known and their >>>> ?classic? interpretation is that they are caused by the child?s maturing >>>> inner characteristics and the contradictions that arise on that soil >>>> between it andthe environment. From the standpoint of that interpretation >>>> the crises are, of course, inevitable, because these contradictions are >>>> inevitable in any conditions. There is nothing more false, however, in >>>> the >>>> theory of the development of the child?s psyche than this idea. In fact, >>>> crises are not at all inevitable accomplishments of psychic development. >>>> It >>>> is not the crises which are inevitable, but the turning points or breaks, >>>> the qualitative shifts in development. The crisis, on the contrary, is >>>> evidence that a turning point or shift has not been made in time. There >>>> need by no crises at all if the child?s psychic development does not take >>>> shape spontaneously but in a rationally controlled process, controlled >>>> upbringing.? (pp. 398-399) >>>> >>>> Leontiev, A.N. (1981). Problems of the Development of the Mind. Progress: >>>> Moscow >>>> >>>> ?I take the red? text to be the crux of the argument, and the kind of >>>> difference we see in the two men's articles >>>> about the "problem of the environment." >>>> >>>> In American developmental psychology the issue of continuities and >>>> discontinuities in ontogenetic development >>>> continues today the discussion taking place in the 1920's and 1930's. But >>>> I have never seen anyone argue that (say) the syndrome >>>> of behaviors identified as "the terrible twos" occurs because a turning >>>> point has not happened in time, nor that ontogeny is rendered continuous >>>> by >>>> rational control of parents/society. That, it seems, is the red thread of >>>> Stalinism that is so offputting in ANL. >>>> >>>> I do not love LSV's characterization of non-Soviet psychologists >>>> treating >>>> such periods "as deviations of the process from the normal path." I am >>>> not sure who he is referring to, and perhaps he is right and I just need >>>> to >>>> dig deeper into the history of European and American developmental >>>> psychology. Piaget and Erikson, two Europeans whose work was influential >>>> from the 1950/60's don't, at least on the surface, fit this discussion. >>>> Maybe they do below the surface, or there are other, allied issue to >>>> raised. >>>> >>>> Several years ago we (you and I and Andy and others) sought to >>>> characterize LSV's developmental theory but could not reach agreement. >>>> Perhaps it is worth another try. >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > From ablunden@mira.net Thu Mar 19 19:49:48 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 13:49:48 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages In-Reply-To: <550B8A04.6050809@mira.net> References: <550B7C3B.8060602@mira.net> <550B8A04.6050809@mira.net> Message-ID: <550B8ACC.6080607@mira.net> Oops! "Peter Principle" not "Peer Principle" From liberali@uol.com.br Thu Mar 19 20:06:50 2015 From: liberali@uol.com.br (Fernanda) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 00:06:50 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages In-Reply-To: <550B7C3B.8060602@mira.net> References: <550B7C3B.8060602@mira.net> Message-ID: <4F365E80-84E7-48BB-A42B-28C218275C70@uol.com.br> Enviado do meu iPhone > Em 19/03/2015, ?s 22:47, Andy Blunden escreveu: > > The distinction I use, Mike, is that in development, not only does a person's activity change, but also that of those in their social surroundings so that the person occupies a new social position or role. Learning is change, without change in your social position. In "Problem of Age" Vygotsky formulates this in terms of change from being an "infant" to "early childhood" or from "early childhood" to being a "pre-school child," etc. Development is a social relation, involving both characteristics of the person and of their environment. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: >> After sending the note below I encountered the following definition of >> learning in Simon's >> *Sciences of the artificial* which I am reading with respect to other >> (related) matters. >> >> *Learning is any change in a system that produces a more or less permanent >> change in its capacity for adapting to the environment.* >> >> The word, development, does not appear in this book. >> >> Seems relevant to many long standing discussions of learning and >> development in this discourse space. >> >> mike >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 5:14 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> >>> David --- >>> Picking on just one thread from your multiplex comments in the context of >>> the discussion on printing presses and digital computer >>> ?technologies, i would like to thank you for juxtaposing these? two >>> paragraphs, one from LSV on crises in development, the other >>> from Leontiev. I have made a separate header because I am not agile or >>> learned enough to keep track of both at the same time, >>> the ontogenetic level of analysis is plenty enough for me to try to think >>> systematically about in a single message.. >>> >>> \Vygotsky, (could you give pages in current English version so we enter >>> the relevant portion of the text?): >>> >>> These ages (i.e. stable ages--DK) and this type of child development have >>> been studied more completely than ages characterized by a different course >>> of child development (i.e.the crisis--DK). These latter were discovered by >>> empirical paths, one by one, in a haphazard manner, and many have still not >>> been shown by the majority of investigators in systems and are not included >>> in the general periodization of child development. Many authors have even >>> doubted the evidence of the inner necessity of their existence. Many are >>> inclined to take them more as ?maladies? of development, as deviations of >>> the process fromthe normal path, than as internally necessary periods of >>> child development. Almost none of the bourgeois investigators have realized >>> their theoretical signfiicance, and the attempt in our book at their >>> systematization, at their theoretical interpretation, and at their >>> inclusion in the general scheme of child development for this reason should >>> be seen as perhaps the first attempt of this kind." >>> >>> Compare: >>> >>> ?These crises?the three year old crisis, the seven year old crisis, the >>> adolescent crisis, the youth crisis?are always associated with a change of >>> stage. They indicate in clear, obvious form that these changes, these >>> transitions from one stage to another have an inner necessity of their >>> own. The existence of development of crises has long been known and their >>> ?classic? interpretation is that they are caused by the child?s maturing >>> inner characteristics and the contradictions that arise on that soil >>> between it andthe environment. From the standpoint of that interpretation >>> the crises are, of course, inevitable, because these contradictions are >>> inevitable in any conditions. There is nothing more false, however, in the >>> theory of the development of the child?s psyche than this idea. In fact, >>> crises are not at all inevitable accomplishments of psychic development. It >>> is not the crises which are inevitable, but the turning points or breaks, >>> the qualitative shifts in development. The crisis, on the contrary, is >>> evidence that a turning point or shift has not been made in time. There >>> need by no crises at all if the child?s psychic development does not take >>> shape spontaneously but in a rationally controlled process, controlled >>> upbringing.? (pp. 398-399) >>> >>> Leontiev, A.N. (1981). Problems of the Development of the Mind. Progress: >>> Moscow >>> >>> ?I take the red? text to be the crux of the argument, and the kind of >>> difference we see in the two men's articles >>> about the "problem of the environment." >>> >>> In American developmental psychology the issue of continuities and >>> discontinuities in ontogenetic development >>> continues today the discussion taking place in the 1920's and 1930's. But >>> I have never seen anyone argue that (say) the syndrome >>> of behaviors identified as "the terrible twos" occurs because a turning >>> point has not happened in time, nor that ontogeny is rendered continuous by >>> rational control of parents/society. That, it seems, is the red thread of >>> Stalinism that is so offputting in ANL. >>> >>> I do not love LSV's characterization of non-Soviet psychologists treating >>> such periods "as deviations of the process from the normal path." I am >>> not sure who he is referring to, and perhaps he is right and I just need to >>> dig deeper into the history of European and American developmental >>> psychology. Piaget and Erikson, two Europeans whose work was influential >>> from the 1950/60's don't, at least on the surface, fit this discussion. >>> Maybe they do below the surface, or there are other, allied issue to raised. >>> >>> Several years ago we (you and I and Andy and others) sought to >>> characterize LSV's developmental theory but could not reach agreement. >>> Perhaps it is worth another try. >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Mar 19 21:58:47 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 04:58:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?_Review=3A_From_the_History_of_Soviet_Philosophy?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=3ALuk=E1cs_-_Vygotsky_-_Ilyenkov?= Message-ID: <1426827527327.95752@unm.edu> Hi Esteemed Xmcars, I spied this in my notifications on Academia.edu and thought you might want to take a gander. It's by Alex Levant. https://www.academia.edu/1454708/From_the_History_of_Soviet_Philosophy_Lukacs-Vygotsky-Ilyenkov_2011_? Here is the Abstract: This review-essay explores the subterranean tradition of 'creative Soviet Marxism' through a recent book by the Russian philosopher Sergey Mareev, From the History of Soviet Philosophy:Luk?cs - Vygotsky - Ilyenkov (2008). It provides a brief overview of the history of Soviet philosophy so as to orient the reader to a set of debates that continue to be largely unexplored in the Western-Marxist tradition. Mareev o?ers a new account of the development of Soviet philosophy that not only explodes the myth that Soviet philosophy was simply state-sanctioned dogma, butalso reinterprets the relationship between the key creative theorists so as to o?er a new way of understanding its development that challenges several key-aspects of the dominant Westernscholarship on this subject. He argues that alongside o?cial Marxist philosophy in the SovietUnion - the crude materialism of Diamat and Istmat - there existed another line, whichcounterposed the central r?le of social activity in the development of human consciousness. Hetraces this line of anti-positivist theory from V.I. Lenin through Georg Luk?cs and Lev Vygotsky to Evald Ilyenkov - a pivotal ?gure in the 'Marxian renaissance' of the 1960s, but who 'has tothis day remained a Soviet phenomenon without much international in?uence'. Speci?cally,Mareev disputes the r?le of A.M. Deborin as a precursor of the Ilyenkov school, and insteadintroduces Georg Luk?cs - a ?gure primarily recognised in the West as one of the founders of Western Marxism - into the line of development of creative Soviet Marxism. Furthermore, hereconsiders the r?le of V.I. Lenin and G.V. Plekhanov - the so-called father of Russian socialdemocracy - in the development of Soviet philosophy. In the process, the author provides adetailed history of the emergence of Diamat and Istmat, and shines a spotlight on a ?gure widely recognised as the most important Soviet philosopher in the post-Stalin period - E.V. Ilyenkov. Kind regards, Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Fri Mar 20 03:42:00 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 21:42:00 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <550BF978.7080506@mira.net> Red doesn't show up on xmca messages, Mike, _underline_ or /italic/ or *bold* work somewhat erratically, but it is usually possible to figure out what the writer's intention was. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > David --- > Picking on just one thread from your multiplex comments in the context of > the discussion on printing presses and digital computer > ?technologies, i would like to thank you for juxtaposing these? two > paragraphs, one from LSV on crises in development, the other > from Leontiev. I have made a separate header because I am not agile or > learned enough to keep track of both at the same time, > the ontogenetic level of analysis is plenty enough for me to try to think > systematically about in a single message.. > > \Vygotsky, (could you give pages in current English version so we enter the > relevant portion of the text?): > > These ages (i.e. stable ages--DK) and this type of child development have > been studied more completely than ages characterized by a different course > of child development (i.e.the crisis--DK). These latter were discovered by > empirical paths, one by one, in a haphazard manner, and many have still not > been shown by the majority of investigators in systems and are not included > in the general periodization of child development. Many authors have even > doubted the evidence of the inner necessity of their existence. Many are > inclined to take them more as ?maladies? of development, as deviations of > the process fromthe normal path, than as internally necessary periods of > child development. Almost none of the bourgeois investigators have realized > their theoretical signfiicance, and the attempt in our book at their > systematization, at their theoretical interpretation, and at their > inclusion in the general scheme of child development for this reason should > be seen as perhaps the first attempt of this kind." > > Compare: > > ?These crises?the three year old crisis, the seven year old crisis, the > adolescent crisis, the youth crisis?are always associated with a change of > stage. They indicate in clear, obvious form that these changes, these > transitions from one stage to another have an inner necessity of their > own. The existence of development of crises has long been known and their > ?classic? interpretation is that they are caused by the child?s maturing > inner characteristics and the contradictions that arise on that soil > between it andthe environment. From the standpoint of that interpretation > the crises are, of course, inevitable, because these contradictions are > inevitable in any conditions. There is nothing more false, however, in the > theory of the development of the child?s psyche than this idea. In fact, > crises are not at all inevitable accomplishments of psychic development. It > is not the crises which are inevitable, but the turning points or breaks, > the qualitative shifts in development. The crisis, on the contrary, is > evidence that a turning point or shift has not been made in time. There > need by no crises at all if the child?s psychic development does not take > shape spontaneously but in a rationally controlled process, controlled > upbringing.? (pp. 398-399) > > Leontiev, A.N. (1981). Problems of the Development of the Mind. Progress: > Moscow > > ?I take the red? text to be the crux of the argument, and the kind of > difference we see in the two men's articles > about the "problem of the environment." > > In American developmental psychology the issue of continuities and > discontinuities in ontogenetic development > continues today the discussion taking place in the 1920's and 1930's. But I > have never seen anyone argue that (say) the syndrome > of behaviors identified as "the terrible twos" occurs because a turning > point has not happened in time, nor that ontogeny is rendered continuous by > rational control of parents/society. That, it seems, is the red thread of > Stalinism that is so offputting in ANL. > > I do not love LSV's characterization of non-Soviet psychologists treating > such periods "as deviations of the process from the normal path." I am not > sure who he is referring to, and perhaps he is right and I just need to dig > deeper into the history of European and American developmental psychology. > Piaget and Erikson, two Europeans whose work was influential from the > 1950/60's don't, at least on the surface, fit this discussion. Maybe they > do below the surface, or there are other, allied issue to raised. > > Several years ago we (you and I and Andy and others) sought to characterize > LSV's developmental theory but could not reach agreement. Perhaps it is > worth another try. > > mike > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Mar 20 05:15:09 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:15:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages In-Reply-To: <550B8A04.6050809@mira.net> References: <550B7C3B.8060602@mira.net> <550B8A04.6050809@mira.net> Message-ID: So new social positions are an inadequate index of development due to the prevalence of 'pathological development'. I agree that 'it is always situational'. The complexity in this is that reflexivity is part of that situation. E.g. in which particular situational episode does a child 'gain' 'object permanence'? And in which particular situation does a child discover that a game can be made out of fixed rules, rather than arbitrarily imagined ones that are subject to change? Huw On 20 March 2015 at 02:46, Andy Blunden wrote: > Ha, ha! Huw, I had never heard of "the Peer Principle" before, but now > I've read up on it, it very accurately describes what I have witnessed in a > life time in universities! :) > But the promotion of people to "their level of incompetence" (something > Australia as a nation is going through at the moment!) is a *pathology* of > development. The converse pathology is a child who is continued to be > treated as a child long after they have outgrown childhood, or staff who > massively over-perform their role, but due to extraneous reasons, never get > promoted or leave in search of a better position. > While the idea of development vs learning does connote ideas of > qualitative and quantitative change, I do not believe these abstractions > provide a rational understanding of human development. > The main thing is that it is always situational. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> That 'change in social situation' interpretation does crop up quite >> frequently. But for me it is inadequate and misleading. Particularly >> with >> phenomena described by the Peter principle. >> >> For me, development as a distinction from the broader notion of learning >> is >> simply the accommodation of genuine generalisations affording greater >> reflexivity. This will, by virtue of the qualitative change, result in a >> different social situation. >> >> Rote and mere factual learning can theoretically actually lead to less >> capacity for adaptation, so Simon may have a particular idea in mind. >> >> Incidentally, I tend to pair that text of Simon's with Vicker's 'Art of >> Judgement'. Some good, more indirect, thinking there too. >> >> Huw >> >> >> >> On 20 March 2015 at 01:47, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> >> >>> The distinction I use, Mike, is that in development, not only does a >>> person's activity change, but also that of those in their social >>> surroundings so that the person occupies a new social position or role. >>> Learning is change, without change in your social position. In "Problem >>> of >>> Age" Vygotsky formulates this in terms of change from being an "infant" >>> to >>> "early childhood" or from "early childhood" to being a "pre-school >>> child," >>> etc. Development is a social relation, involving both characteristics of >>> the person and of their environment. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> After sending the note below I encountered the following definition of >>>> learning in Simon's >>>> *Sciences of the artificial* which I am reading with respect to other >>>> (related) matters. >>>> >>>> *Learning is any change in a system that produces a more or less >>>> permanent >>>> change in its capacity for adapting to the environment.* >>>> >>>> The word, development, does not appear in this book. >>>> >>>> Seems relevant to many long standing discussions of learning and >>>> development in this discourse space. >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 5:14 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> David --- >>>>> Picking on just one thread from your multiplex comments in the context >>>>> of >>>>> the discussion on printing presses and digital computer >>>>> ?technologies, i would like to thank you for juxtaposing these? two >>>>> paragraphs, one from LSV on crises in development, the other >>>>> from Leontiev. I have made a separate header because I am not agile or >>>>> learned enough to keep track of both at the same time, >>>>> the ontogenetic level of analysis is plenty enough for me to try to >>>>> think >>>>> systematically about in a single message.. >>>>> >>>>> \Vygotsky, (could you give pages in current English version so we enter >>>>> the relevant portion of the text?): >>>>> >>>>> These ages (i.e. stable ages--DK) and this type of child development >>>>> have >>>>> been studied more completely than ages characterized by a different >>>>> course >>>>> of child development (i.e.the crisis--DK). These latter were discovered >>>>> by >>>>> empirical paths, one by one, in a haphazard manner, and many have still >>>>> not >>>>> been shown by the majority of investigators in systems and are not >>>>> included >>>>> in the general periodization of child development. Many authors have >>>>> even >>>>> doubted the evidence of the inner necessity of their existence. Many >>>>> are >>>>> inclined to take them more as ?maladies? of development, as deviations >>>>> of >>>>> the process fromthe normal path, than as internally necessary periods >>>>> of >>>>> child development. Almost none of the bourgeois investigators have >>>>> realized >>>>> their theoretical signfiicance, and the attempt in our book at their >>>>> systematization, at their theoretical interpretation, and at their >>>>> inclusion in the general scheme of child development for this reason >>>>> should >>>>> be seen as perhaps the first attempt of this kind." >>>>> >>>>> Compare: >>>>> >>>>> ?These crises?the three year old crisis, the seven year old crisis, >>>>> the >>>>> adolescent crisis, the youth crisis?are always associated with a change >>>>> of >>>>> stage. They indicate in clear, obvious form that these changes, these >>>>> transitions from one stage to another have an inner necessity of their >>>>> own. The existence of development of crises has long been known and >>>>> their >>>>> ?classic? interpretation is that they are caused by the child?s >>>>> maturing >>>>> inner characteristics and the contradictions that arise on that soil >>>>> between it andthe environment. From the standpoint of that >>>>> interpretation >>>>> the crises are, of course, inevitable, because these contradictions are >>>>> inevitable in any conditions. There is nothing more false, however, in >>>>> the >>>>> theory of the development of the child?s psyche than this idea. In >>>>> fact, >>>>> crises are not at all inevitable accomplishments of psychic >>>>> development. >>>>> It >>>>> is not the crises which are inevitable, but the turning points or >>>>> breaks, >>>>> the qualitative shifts in development. The crisis, on the contrary, is >>>>> evidence that a turning point or shift has not been made in time. There >>>>> need by no crises at all if the child?s psychic development does not >>>>> take >>>>> shape spontaneously but in a rationally controlled process, controlled >>>>> upbringing.? (pp. 398-399) >>>>> >>>>> Leontiev, A.N. (1981). Problems of the Development of the Mind. >>>>> Progress: >>>>> Moscow >>>>> >>>>> ?I take the red? text to be the crux of the argument, and the kind of >>>>> difference we see in the two men's articles >>>>> about the "problem of the environment." >>>>> >>>>> In American developmental psychology the issue of continuities and >>>>> discontinuities in ontogenetic development >>>>> continues today the discussion taking place in the 1920's and 1930's. >>>>> But >>>>> I have never seen anyone argue that (say) the syndrome >>>>> of behaviors identified as "the terrible twos" occurs because a turning >>>>> point has not happened in time, nor that ontogeny is rendered >>>>> continuous >>>>> by >>>>> rational control of parents/society. That, it seems, is the red thread >>>>> of >>>>> Stalinism that is so offputting in ANL. >>>>> >>>>> I do not love LSV's characterization of non-Soviet psychologists >>>>> treating >>>>> such periods "as deviations of the process from the normal path." I am >>>>> not sure who he is referring to, and perhaps he is right and I just >>>>> need >>>>> to >>>>> dig deeper into the history of European and American developmental >>>>> psychology. Piaget and Erikson, two Europeans whose work was >>>>> influential >>>>> from the 1950/60's don't, at least on the surface, fit this discussion. >>>>> Maybe they do below the surface, or there are other, allied issue to >>>>> raised. >>>>> >>>>> Several years ago we (you and I and Andy and others) sought to >>>>> characterize LSV's developmental theory but could not reach agreement. >>>>> Perhaps it is worth another try. >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > From ablunden@mira.net Fri Mar 20 05:22:45 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 23:22:45 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages In-Reply-To: References: <550B7C3B.8060602@mira.net> <550B8A04.6050809@mira.net> Message-ID: <550C1115.6080508@mira.net> Sticking to child development for the moment .... a child is born physically, biologically, emotionally, psychologically, intellectually and socially dependent on their family (or whomever). In something like 90% of cases, by the time they're in their 20s, they are working, voting, householders in their own right. No matter how many people never get a job, raise a family or learn to tell the difference between a used car salesman and a statesman, this process is normal, the passage through a series of culturally defined social positions in which the given individual more or less adequately fulfils the social expectations. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Huw Lloyd wrote: > So new social positions are an inadequate index of development due to the > prevalence of 'pathological development'. > > I agree that 'it is always situational'. The complexity in this is that > reflexivity is part of that situation. E.g. in which particular > situational episode does a child 'gain' 'object permanence'? And in which > particular situation does a child discover that a game can be made out of > fixed rules, rather than arbitrarily imagined ones that are subject to > change? > > Huw > > On 20 March 2015 at 02:46, Andy Blunden wrote: > > >> Ha, ha! Huw, I had never heard of "the Peer Principle" before, but now >> I've read up on it, it very accurately describes what I have witnessed in a >> life time in universities! :) >> But the promotion of people to "their level of incompetence" (something >> Australia as a nation is going through at the moment!) is a *pathology* of >> development. The converse pathology is a child who is continued to be >> treated as a child long after they have outgrown childhood, or staff who >> massively over-perform their role, but due to extraneous reasons, never get >> promoted or leave in search of a better position. >> While the idea of development vs learning does connote ideas of >> qualitative and quantitative change, I do not believe these abstractions >> provide a rational understanding of human development. >> The main thing is that it is always situational. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >> >>> That 'change in social situation' interpretation does crop up quite >>> frequently. But for me it is inadequate and misleading. Particularly >>> with >>> phenomena described by the Peter principle. >>> >>> For me, development as a distinction from the broader notion of learning >>> is >>> simply the accommodation of genuine generalisations affording greater >>> reflexivity. This will, by virtue of the qualitative change, result in a >>> different social situation. >>> >>> Rote and mere factual learning can theoretically actually lead to less >>> capacity for adaptation, so Simon may have a particular idea in mind. >>> >>> Incidentally, I tend to pair that text of Simon's with Vicker's 'Art of >>> Judgement'. Some good, more indirect, thinking there too. >>> >>> Huw >>> >>> >>> >>> On 20 March 2015 at 01:47, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> The distinction I use, Mike, is that in development, not only does a >>>> person's activity change, but also that of those in their social >>>> surroundings so that the person occupies a new social position or role. >>>> Learning is change, without change in your social position. In "Problem >>>> of >>>> Age" Vygotsky formulates this in terms of change from being an "infant" >>>> to >>>> "early childhood" or from "early childhood" to being a "pre-school >>>> child," >>>> etc. Development is a social relation, involving both characteristics of >>>> the person and of their environment. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> After sending the note below I encountered the following definition of >>>>> learning in Simon's >>>>> *Sciences of the artificial* which I am reading with respect to other >>>>> (related) matters. >>>>> >>>>> *Learning is any change in a system that produces a more or less >>>>> permanent >>>>> change in its capacity for adapting to the environment.* >>>>> >>>>> The word, development, does not appear in this book. >>>>> >>>>> Seems relevant to many long standing discussions of learning and >>>>> development in this discourse space. >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 5:14 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> David --- >>>>>> Picking on just one thread from your multiplex comments in the context >>>>>> of >>>>>> the discussion on printing presses and digital computer >>>>>> ?technologies, i would like to thank you for juxtaposing these? two >>>>>> paragraphs, one from LSV on crises in development, the other >>>>>> from Leontiev. I have made a separate header because I am not agile or >>>>>> learned enough to keep track of both at the same time, >>>>>> the ontogenetic level of analysis is plenty enough for me to try to >>>>>> think >>>>>> systematically about in a single message.. >>>>>> >>>>>> \Vygotsky, (could you give pages in current English version so we enter >>>>>> the relevant portion of the text?): >>>>>> >>>>>> These ages (i.e. stable ages--DK) and this type of child development >>>>>> have >>>>>> been studied more completely than ages characterized by a different >>>>>> course >>>>>> of child development (i.e.the crisis--DK). These latter were discovered >>>>>> by >>>>>> empirical paths, one by one, in a haphazard manner, and many have still >>>>>> not >>>>>> been shown by the majority of investigators in systems and are not >>>>>> included >>>>>> in the general periodization of child development. Many authors have >>>>>> even >>>>>> doubted the evidence of the inner necessity of their existence. Many >>>>>> are >>>>>> inclined to take them more as ?maladies? of development, as deviations >>>>>> of >>>>>> the process fromthe normal path, than as internally necessary periods >>>>>> of >>>>>> child development. Almost none of the bourgeois investigators have >>>>>> realized >>>>>> their theoretical signfiicance, and the attempt in our book at their >>>>>> systematization, at their theoretical interpretation, and at their >>>>>> inclusion in the general scheme of child development for this reason >>>>>> should >>>>>> be seen as perhaps the first attempt of this kind." >>>>>> >>>>>> Compare: >>>>>> >>>>>> ?These crises?the three year old crisis, the seven year old crisis, >>>>>> the >>>>>> adolescent crisis, the youth crisis?are always associated with a change >>>>>> of >>>>>> stage. They indicate in clear, obvious form that these changes, these >>>>>> transitions from one stage to another have an inner necessity of their >>>>>> own. The existence of development of crises has long been known and >>>>>> their >>>>>> ?classic? interpretation is that they are caused by the child?s >>>>>> maturing >>>>>> inner characteristics and the contradictions that arise on that soil >>>>>> between it andthe environment. From the standpoint of that >>>>>> interpretation >>>>>> the crises are, of course, inevitable, because these contradictions are >>>>>> inevitable in any conditions. There is nothing more false, however, in >>>>>> the >>>>>> theory of the development of the child?s psyche than this idea. In >>>>>> fact, >>>>>> crises are not at all inevitable accomplishments of psychic >>>>>> development. >>>>>> It >>>>>> is not the crises which are inevitable, but the turning points or >>>>>> breaks, >>>>>> the qualitative shifts in development. The crisis, on the contrary, is >>>>>> evidence that a turning point or shift has not been made in time. There >>>>>> need by no crises at all if the child?s psychic development does not >>>>>> take >>>>>> shape spontaneously but in a rationally controlled process, controlled >>>>>> upbringing.? (pp. 398-399) >>>>>> >>>>>> Leontiev, A.N. (1981). Problems of the Development of the Mind. >>>>>> Progress: >>>>>> Moscow >>>>>> >>>>>> ?I take the red? text to be the crux of the argument, and the kind of >>>>>> difference we see in the two men's articles >>>>>> about the "problem of the environment." >>>>>> >>>>>> In American developmental psychology the issue of continuities and >>>>>> discontinuities in ontogenetic development >>>>>> continues today the discussion taking place in the 1920's and 1930's. >>>>>> But >>>>>> I have never seen anyone argue that (say) the syndrome >>>>>> of behaviors identified as "the terrible twos" occurs because a turning >>>>>> point has not happened in time, nor that ontogeny is rendered >>>>>> continuous >>>>>> by >>>>>> rational control of parents/society. That, it seems, is the red thread >>>>>> of >>>>>> Stalinism that is so offputting in ANL. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not love LSV's characterization of non-Soviet psychologists >>>>>> treating >>>>>> such periods "as deviations of the process from the normal path." I am >>>>>> not sure who he is referring to, and perhaps he is right and I just >>>>>> need >>>>>> to >>>>>> dig deeper into the history of European and American developmental >>>>>> psychology. Piaget and Erikson, two Europeans whose work was >>>>>> influential >>>>>> from the 1950/60's don't, at least on the surface, fit this discussion. >>>>>> Maybe they do below the surface, or there are other, allied issue to >>>>>> raised. >>>>>> >>>>>> Several years ago we (you and I and Andy and others) sought to >>>>>> characterize LSV's developmental theory but could not reach agreement. >>>>>> Perhaps it is worth another try. >>>>>> >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Mar 20 05:54:36 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:54:36 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages In-Reply-To: <550C1115.6080508@mira.net> References: <550B7C3B.8060602@mira.net> <550B8A04.6050809@mira.net> <550C1115.6080508@mira.net> Message-ID: Sure, but those transitions, in themselves, do not necessarily implicate a change in the structuring of consciousness, cognition or manner of activity. That's particularly so of changes in the roles and responsibilities of adults. Once one is sufficiently adapted to one's environment, it takes deliberate intention to change one's mode of conduct. Hence Simon's referencing the capacity for adaptation. Huw On 20 March 2015 at 12:22, Andy Blunden wrote: > Sticking to child development for the moment .... a child is born > physically, biologically, emotionally, psychologically, intellectually and > socially dependent on their family (or whomever). > In something like 90% of cases, by the time they're in their 20s, they are > working, voting, householders in their own right. No matter how many people > never get a job, raise a family or learn to tell the difference between a > used car salesman and a statesman, this process is normal, the passage > through a series of culturally defined social positions in which the given > individual more or less adequately fulfils the social expectations. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > From ablunden@mira.net Fri Mar 20 06:00:18 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 00:00:18 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages In-Reply-To: References: <550B7C3B.8060602@mira.net> <550B8A04.6050809@mira.net> <550C1115.6080508@mira.net> Message-ID: <550C19E2.1020006@mira.net> I have many times experienced a fellow worker with no special talent, once elected as a shop steward, in a short space of time, become a competent leader. Equally, I have seen many newly appointed managers make exceptions to Peter's Principle and suddenly respond to the new way they are treated by their once-fellow workers, and take on a professional leadership role. Often, the reverse happens, but we all see these as some kind of failure of development, a mismatch. I don't see the problem, Huw. :) Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Huw Lloyd wrote: > Sure, but those transitions, in themselves, do not necessarily implicate a > change in the structuring of consciousness, cognition or manner of > activity. That's particularly so of changes in the roles and > responsibilities of adults. Once one is sufficiently adapted to one's > environment, it takes deliberate intention to change one's mode of > conduct. Hence Simon's referencing the capacity for adaptation. > > Huw > > > On 20 March 2015 at 12:22, Andy Blunden wrote: > > >> Sticking to child development for the moment .... a child is born >> physically, biologically, emotionally, psychologically, intellectually and >> socially dependent on their family (or whomever). >> In something like 90% of cases, by the time they're in their 20s, they are >> working, voting, householders in their own right. No matter how many people >> never get a job, raise a family or learn to tell the difference between a >> used car salesman and a statesman, this process is normal, the passage >> through a series of culturally defined social positions in which the given >> individual more or less adequately fulfils the social expectations. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Mar 20 06:12:14 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 13:12:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages In-Reply-To: <550C19E2.1020006@mira.net> References: <550B7C3B.8060602@mira.net> <550B8A04.6050809@mira.net> <550C1115.6080508@mira.net> <550C19E2.1020006@mira.net> Message-ID: The problem is distinguishing between the actual transformation, rather a change in clothing. Treating a change in clothing or role as a proxy for development is ok so long as you persist in remembering that this is a proxy for development and not a definition of it. Huw On 20 March 2015 at 13:00, Andy Blunden wrote: > I have many times experienced a fellow worker with no special talent, once > elected as a shop steward, in a short space of time, become a competent > leader. Equally, I have seen many newly appointed managers make exceptions > to Peter's Principle and suddenly respond to the new way they are treated > by their once-fellow workers, and take on a professional leadership role. > Often, the reverse happens, but we all see these as some kind of failure > of development, a mismatch. > I don't see the problem, Huw. :) > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> Sure, but those transitions, in themselves, do not necessarily implicate a >> change in the structuring of consciousness, cognition or manner of >> activity. That's particularly so of changes in the roles and >> responsibilities of adults. Once one is sufficiently adapted to one's >> environment, it takes deliberate intention to change one's mode of >> conduct. Hence Simon's referencing the capacity for adaptation. >> >> Huw >> >> >> On 20 March 2015 at 12:22, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> >> >>> Sticking to child development for the moment .... a child is born >>> physically, biologically, emotionally, psychologically, intellectually >>> and >>> socially dependent on their family (or whomever). >>> In something like 90% of cases, by the time they're in their 20s, they >>> are >>> working, voting, householders in their own right. No matter how many >>> people >>> never get a job, raise a family or learn to tell the difference between >>> a >>> used car salesman and a statesman, this process is normal, the passage >>> through a series of culturally defined social positions in which the >>> given >>> individual more or less adequately fulfils the social expectations. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Mar 20 08:55:02 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 08:55:02 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy Message-ID: Thanks for pointing out my error in using color to code the part of the text I was trying to draw attention to, Andy. I will repeat here using *italics.* You ask in a follow up note why I suggest that perhaps a return to LSV's theory of alternating crises and lithic (relatively stable) periods of development might be worth returning to investigate again after a few years of the topic having been subsumed or scattered among other topics: Because last time around we foundered for lack of clarity and several issues and because my focal long term interest in the role of culture in human development has not abated in the interim. No problem if its not interesting or potentially useful for xmca members. mike -------------------- David --- Picking on just one thread from your multiplex comments in the context of the discussion on printing presses and digital computer ?technologies, i would like to thank you for juxtaposing these? two paragraphs, one from LSV on crises in development, the other from Leontiev. I have made a separate header because I am not agile or learned enough to keep track of both at the same time, the ontogenetic level of analysis is plenty enough for me to try to think systematically about in a single message.. \Vygotsky, (could you give pages in current English version so we enter the relevant portion of the text?): These ages (i.e. stable ages--DK) and this type of child development have been studied more completely than ages characterized by a different course of child development (i.e.the crisis--DK). These latter were discovered by empirical paths, one by one, in a haphazard manner, and many have still not been shown by the majority of investigators in systems and are not included in the general periodization of child development. Many authors have even doubted the evidence of the inner necessity of their existence. Many are inclined to take them more as ?maladies? of development, as deviations of the process fromthe normal path, than as internally necessary periods of child development. Almost none of the bourgeois investigators have realized their theoretical signfiicance, and the attempt in our book at their systematization, at their theoretical interpretation, and at their inclusion in the general scheme of child development for this reason should be seen as perhaps the first attempt of this kind." Compare: ?These crises?the three year old crisis, the seven year old crisis, the adolescent crisis, the youth crisis?are always associated with a change of stage. They indicate in clear, obvious form that these changes, these transitions from one stage to another have an inner necessity of their own. The existence of development of crises has long been known and their ?classic? interpretation is that they are caused by the child?s maturing inner characteristics and the contradictions that arise on that soil between it andthe environment. From the standpoint of that interpretation the crises are, of course, inevitable, because these contradictions are inevitable in any conditions. There is nothing more false, however, in the theory of the development of the child?s psyche than this idea. In fact, crises are not at all inevitable accomplishments of psychic development. It is not the crises which are inevitable, but the turning points or breaks, the qualitative shifts in development. T*he crisis, on the contrary, is* *evidence that a turning point or shift has not been made in time. Thereneed by no crises at all if the child?s psychic development does not takeshape spontaneously but in a rationally controlled process, controlledupbringing.? (pp. 398-399)* Leontiev, A.N. (1981). Problems of the Development of the Mind. Progress: Moscow ?I take the *marked?* text to be the crux of the argument, and the kind of difference we see in the two men's articles about the "problem of the environment." In American developmental psychology the issue of continuities and discontinuities in ontogenetic development continues today the discussion taking place in the 1920's and 1930's. But I have never seen anyone argue that (say) the syndrome of behaviors identified as "the terrible twos" occurs because a turning point has not happened in time, nor that ontogeny is rendered continuous by rational control of parents/society. That, it seems, is the red thread of Stalinism that is so offputting in ANL. I do not love LSV's characterization of non-Soviet psychologists treating such periods "as deviations of the process from the normal path." I am not sure who he is referring to, and perhaps he is right and I just need to dig deeper into the history of European and American developmental psychology. Piaget and Erikson, two Europeans whose work was influential from the 1950/60's don't, at least on the surface, fit this discussion. Maybe they do below the surface, or there are other, allied issue to raised. -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From dkirsh@lsu.edu Fri Mar 20 12:41:08 2015 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 19:41:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages In-Reply-To: <550B8ACC.6080607@mira.net> References: <550B7C3B.8060602@mira.net> <550B8A04.6050809@mira.net> <550B8ACC.6080607@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, you're slurring your spelling. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 9:50 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages Oops! "Peter Principle" not "Peer Principle" From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Mar 20 13:14:42 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 20:14:42 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: References: <1794094062.7969537.1426407406883.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CAFBC@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <887B70AE-CEC7-48A2-9DCF-B9A57431323B@gmail.com> , Message-ID: <1426882481776.83078@unm.edu> Hello Esteemed XMCArs, One area that the computer has made an impact, that I'm unsure is the analog in the pre-computer era of human experience, is something called trolling. Trolling has something of a double definition. It can be picking a fight on a list, starting a flame war, etc. This can be done in a few ways. There's the overt arguing about points but never letting go and never getting to a point to agree to disagree, just seeing how far one can kick the can down the road. Then there's something more covert. This is done by posting something so ridiculously in error that the gullible or those unfamiliar with the character of posters on a list (who will perform this for the spectacle as the drama unfolds of "eating popcorn" with others or by oneself), will post in earnest a reply and thusly become a target for further trolling at a later time. I have yet to experience that here on XMCA, but I suppose that it's still possible that this kind of behavior which seems to be promoted by anonymity of the Internet, can happen here, though I'd hope that this list is of a higher standard. On other lists I've seen that this behavior is dealt with by the pat wisdom, "Don't Feed the Trolls." Though I'm not sure how well that serves people. Another, more abusive form of trolling is the caustic heinous (and therefore criminal) kind we see on platforms like Twitter, which is made by a coward who uses a sock puppet (an pseudonymous account to disguise one's identity), to post all kinds of verbal and symbolic filth and abuse upon a targeted victim, usually women, people of color and/or LGBT folks. Famous people are also victim to this, such as Lena Dunham or Ashley Judd. Happily, I noticed that Ashley Judd is announcing that she is pressing charges upon those who recently trolled her on Twitter. Lena Dunham has just deleted her account period. Somehow both these solutions are unsatisfactory to me. In any case, it seems that the effect, whether for benign LOLs, or to terrifically verbally abuse another person, can only be out of a deep-seated need to humiliate another person. What I wonder is this: Where does this need come from? Perhaps other XMCArs can comment any hypotheses? The tool of the computer amplifies this psychological pathology. I can say this is one area where computers make a big difference in the quality of life for many people, if not HUGE. Kind regards, Annalisa From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Mar 20 14:57:18 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 06:57:18 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages In-Reply-To: References: <550B7C3B.8060602@mira.net> <550B8A04.6050809@mira.net> <550B8ACC.6080607@mira.net> Message-ID: What we're translating here in Korea is the second half of the manuscript published by Galina Serpionovna Korotaeva in the Department of German Philology at the Udmurt University in Izhevsk in 2001. It's available in Russian on the Vygotsky Internet Archive as the second part of ?????? ?? ????????? , 1935. We published the first part of this book in Korean in January: http://www.aladin.co.kr/shop/wproduct.aspx?ISBN=8994445803 The second part (on Crises and Stable Periods) should be ready in January 2016. The Korotaeva manuscript hasn't been translated into any language, but there are parts of it in Volume Five of the English Collected Works Volume Five, and the passage that I quoted can be found, more or less, on p. 191. Unfortunately, that's not true for much of the manuscript. ?????? 3 ? 7 ??? (The Crisis at Three and the Crisis at Seven) ?????????? ???? ??????????? ???????? (Negative Phases of the Transitional Age) ???????? ??????? . (School Age) ???????? ????????? (Thinking in the School Child) As you can see, this isn't in the Collected Works at all, so as Mike says it's well worth revisiting the discussion. But I can think of three non-textological reasons for revisiting this material. a) Almost ALL of the interpretations of the zone of proximal development used in the West are non-critical--that is, they see "development" as a kind of improved way of adapting to the environment. But even a cursory reading of this manuscript makes it clear that is not what Vygotsky means when he speaks of development (even if we didn't know this already from the emphasis on the development of free will in HDHMF). b) Andy's interpretation of the text in Volume Five overemphasizes the social situation of development, and for this reason does not provide an adequate explanation of the CAUSES of the crisis (which in my view are not caused by the environment directly. Even my own critique of Andy's interpretation at the time underemphasized the intrinsic side of neoformations; it falls into the kinds of developmental schemata that Vygotsky calls "eclectic" here (I used a basket of verbal, mental, and material processes without bothering to find some intrinsic link between them). c) There are also issues which Vygotsky himself does not appear to resolve, for example, the nature of CRITICAL neoformations. These cannot be entirely negative--that is, "neo-disformations", because they do not entirely disappear in the subsequent age. But what are they? David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies PS, for those who are not sticking to the one screen rule: I think that when Vygotsky criticizes "bourgeois psychologists", he is simply using his usual tactic of naming a distant target in order to avoid naming names close to home (this is why he is so very eloquent on the subject of Watson and Thorndike and has so little to say against Pavlov and Bekhterev). On the one hand, Mike is right when he says that Western psychologists, and in particular pedologists, were all talking about the crises. In fact a lot of this chapter consists of polemics against their periodizations of the crisis: Binet's, Stratz's, Stern's, Buhler's and Busemann's. Here's an abstract of the Busemann paper that Vygotsky critiques: Die Erregungsphasen der Jugend. / The excitation phases of youth. Busemann, A. Zeitschrift f?r Kinderforschung, Vol 33, 1927, 115-137. Abstract The author takes as his text the thesis of Siegert (Die Periodizit?t in der Entwicklung der Kindesnatur, 1891) that children develop not according to a smooth upward curve of physical and mental progress, but rather by an irregular course of "favorable and unfavorable phases," so that the impression of periodicity is given. In a careful review of recent European work, including a few of the older studies in English, the author finds striking evidence of critical phases in the development of children. Among the experimental studies reported are Busemann's own contributions in the field of early speech development and of moral judgments. The article serves as an historical background and field of enlargement to them. The critical phases or periods of excitation the writer places roughly at ages 3, 6, 9, 12 or 13, 16 or 17, and perhaps at 19 or 20. The Binet tests do not show the variations in response at the critical ages as do some other intelligence tests, probably, the author believes, because they are constructed in such a way as to take account of these variations in rate of psychological development. Country children reach the successive excitation crises somewhat later than city children. A theory of physiological and psychological phase and counterphase is advanced in explanation of the developmental rhythm: the progress of development proceeds until in the emotional-subjective sphere a supernormal phase occurs. The passing of a certain high point in this sphere then releases or stimulates a compensatory development in the intentional-objective sphere. The apparent correlation between the appearance of the excitation phases and rapidity in anatomical growth lends evidence in favor of a structural basis for the observed behavior phenomena. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved). On the other, there were a lot of SOVIET pedologists who did not believe in the crisis (including Vygotsky's friend Blonsky, and, as we've seen, Leontiev). Actually, they are still at it. Look at this: ?...(G)iving more freedom to adolescents in making their own choices over minor issues could substantially reduce the frequency of their conflicts with parents. Even when dealing with more serious issues, a parent saying ?I?m older than you and your elder, so do what i say? does not seem to be an effective strategy (Larson & Richards, 1994, p. 140). Rather than that, to both reach an acceptable solution and avoid excessive conflicts with adolescents, parents should reason with them on disputable issues, which is now possible because of their children?s new formal-logical abilities (Larson & Richards, 1994). On the basis of the discussion above, it would be reasonable to suggest that conflicts between adolescents and their parents are heavily determined by parent-adolescent styles of interaction; that is, they are anything but inevitable.? (pp. 226-227) Karpov, Y.V. (2005). The Neo-Vygotskyan Approach to Child Development. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press dk On 21 March 2015 at 04:41, David H Kirshner wrote: > Andy, you're slurring your spelling. > David > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 9:50 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages > > Oops! "Peter Principle" not "Peer Principle" > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Mar 20 11:47:45 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:47:45 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages In-Reply-To: References: <550B7C3B.8060602@mira.net> <550B8A04.6050809@mira.net> <550C1115.6080508@mira.net> <550C19E2.1020006@mira.net> Message-ID: <0D450266-5412-4381-8FF4-F2C50ACA5B9C@gmail.com> From ablunden@mira.net Fri Mar 20 16:28:16 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 10:28:16 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages In-Reply-To: References: <550B7C3B.8060602@mira.net> <550B8A04.6050809@mira.net> <550B8ACC.6080607@mira.net> Message-ID: <550CAD10.1030408@mira.net> Mmm, thanks David. I stand my position in making the social situations of development the unit of analysis for child development. "Cause" is a problematic concept, but with an appropriate unit, it can work. Critical development *will* take place on two conditions: (1) the child's perception of its own needs have outgrown the existing relationships and role, and (2) those in the child's environment are prepared to go along with (at least) the development. That gives a very significant causal role to the neoformation (which as a medical term I take to have a largely internal referent), but is not a sufficient cause. And even then, (1) is a relational condition. Also, I wonder if I could offer an apologia for Leontyev. As the recently deceased former Prime Minister of Australia, Malcolm Fraser, famously said: "Life wasn't meant to be easy." I think this is profoundly true and so did Vygotsky, but as Fraser discovered, it is a very difficult thing for a political leader to say, and I think also for a child psychologist. But of course, it is true. But the child is only half of the turbulence that breaks out when the child sets out to change its position in the family in the only way they know. The political atmosphere had turned decisively away from the idea that child rebelling against their parents was a good thing. Whereas Vygotsky said: "People with great passions, people who accomplish great deeds, people who possess strong feelings, even people with great minds and a strong personality, rarely come out of good little boys and girls." Not the sort of thing the Soviet leaders wanted to hear any more! Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ David Kellogg wrote: > What we're translating here in Korea is the second half of the manuscript > published by Galina Serpionovna Korotaeva in the Department of German > Philology at the Udmurt University in Izhevsk in 2001. It's available in > Russian on the Vygotsky Internet Archive as the second part of ?????? ?? > ????????? > , > 1935. We published the first part of this book in Korean in January: > > http://www.aladin.co.kr/shop/wproduct.aspx?ISBN=8994445803 > > The second part (on Crises and Stable Periods) should be ready in January > 2016. > > The Korotaeva manuscript hasn't been translated into any language, but > there are parts of it in Volume Five of the English Collected Works Volume > Five, and the passage that I quoted can be found, more or less, on p. 191. > > Unfortunately, that's not true for much of the manuscript. > > ?????? 3 ? 7 ??? > > (The Crisis at Three and the Crisis at Seven) > > ?????????? ???? ??????????? ???????? > > (Negative Phases of the Transitional Age) > > ???????? ??????? . > > (School Age) > > ???????? ????????? > > (Thinking in the School Child) > As you can see, this isn't in the Collected Works at all, so as Mike says > it's well worth revisiting the discussion. > > But I can think of three non-textological reasons for revisiting this > material. > > a) Almost ALL of the interpretations of the zone of proximal development > used in the West are non-critical--that is, they see "development" as a > kind of improved way of adapting to the environment. But even a cursory > reading of this manuscript makes it clear that is not what Vygotsky means > when he speaks of development (even if we didn't know this already from the > emphasis on the development of free will in HDHMF). > > b) Andy's interpretation of the text in Volume Five overemphasizes the > social situation of development, and for this reason does not provide an > adequate explanation of the CAUSES of the crisis (which in my view are not > caused by the environment directly. Even my own critique of Andy's > interpretation at the time underemphasized the intrinsic side of > neoformations; it falls into the kinds of developmental schemata that > Vygotsky calls "eclectic" here (I used a basket of verbal, mental, and > material processes without bothering to find some intrinsic link between > them). > > c) There are also issues which Vygotsky himself does not appear to resolve, > for example, the nature of CRITICAL neoformations. These cannot be entirely > negative--that is, "neo-disformations", because they do not entirely > disappear in the subsequent age. But what are they? > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > PS, for those who are not sticking to the one screen rule: I think that > when Vygotsky criticizes "bourgeois psychologists", he is simply using his > usual tactic of naming a distant target in order to avoid naming names > close to home (this is why he is so very eloquent on the subject of Watson > and Thorndike and has so little to say against Pavlov and Bekhterev). > > On the one hand, Mike is right when he says that Western psychologists, and > in particular pedologists, were all talking about the crises. In fact a lot > of this chapter consists of polemics against their periodizations of the > crisis: Binet's, Stratz's, Stern's, Buhler's and Busemann's. > > Here's an abstract of the Busemann paper that Vygotsky critiques: > > Die Erregungsphasen der Jugend. / The excitation phases of youth. > > Busemann, A. > > Zeitschrift f?r Kinderforschung, Vol 33, 1927, 115-137. > > Abstract > > The author takes as his text the thesis of Siegert (Die Periodizit?t in der > Entwicklung der Kindesnatur, 1891) that children develop not according to a > smooth upward curve of physical and mental progress, but rather by an > irregular course of "favorable and unfavorable phases," so that the > impression of periodicity is given. In a careful review of recent European > work, including a few of the older studies in English, the author finds > striking evidence of critical phases in the development of children. Among > the experimental studies reported are Busemann's own contributions in the > field of early speech development and of moral judgments. The article > serves as an historical background and field of enlargement to them. The > critical phases or periods of excitation the writer places roughly at ages > 3, 6, 9, 12 or 13, 16 or 17, and perhaps at 19 or 20. The Binet tests do > not show the variations in response at the critical ages as do some other > intelligence tests, probably, the author believes, because they are > constructed in such a way as to take account of these variations in rate of > psychological development. Country children reach the successive excitation > crises somewhat later than city children. A theory of physiological and > psychological phase and counterphase is advanced in explanation of the > developmental rhythm: the progress of development proceeds until in the > emotional-subjective sphere a supernormal phase occurs. The passing of a > certain high point in this sphere then releases or stimulates a > compensatory development in the intentional-objective sphere. The apparent > correlation between the appearance of the excitation phases and rapidity in > anatomical growth lends evidence in favor of a structural basis for the > observed behavior phenomena. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all > rights reserved). > > > On the other, there were a lot of SOVIET pedologists who did not believe in > the crisis (including Vygotsky's friend Blonsky, and, as we've seen, > Leontiev). Actually, they are still at it. Look at this: > > ?...(G)iving more freedom to adolescents in making their own choices over > minor issues could substantially reduce the frequency of their conflicts > with parents. Even when dealing with more serious issues, a parent saying > ?I?m older than you and your elder, so do what i say? does not seem to be > an effective strategy (Larson & Richards, 1994, p. 140). Rather than that, > to both reach an acceptable solution and avoid excessive conflicts with > adolescents, parents should reason with them on disputable issues, which is > now possible because of their children?s new formal-logical abilities > (Larson & Richards, 1994). On the basis of the discussion above, it would > be reasonable to suggest that conflicts between adolescents and their > parents are heavily determined by parent-adolescent styles of interaction; > that is, they are anything but inevitable.? (pp. 226-227) > > > > Karpov, Y.V. (2005). The Neo-Vygotskyan Approach to Child Development. > Cambridge: Cambridge University Press > > dk > > On 21 March 2015 at 04:41, David H Kirshner wrote: > > >> Andy, you're slurring your spelling. >> David >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 9:50 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages >> >> Oops! "Peter Principle" not "Peer Principle" >> >> >> >> > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Mar 20 16:31:16 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 23:31:16 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, In the paragraph you provide, ANL doesn't say that the development is continuous: "the turning points or breaks, the qualitative shifts in development". The assertion that the crisis can be avoided isn't the same thing as saying that there will not be a fundamental change. In my recollection, we did not have any issues at 2. We did have some interesting 'negation experimentation', but those 'no's seemed to have a special meaning, so it simply required a bit more attention. That seems to support ANL's assertion. Huw On 20 March 2015 at 15:55, mike cole wrote: > Thanks for pointing out my error in using color to code the part of the > text I was trying to draw attention to, Andy. I will repeat here using > *italics.* > > You ask in a follow up note why I suggest that perhaps a return to LSV's > theory of alternating crises and lithic (relatively stable) periods of > development might be worth returning to investigate again after a few years > of the topic having been subsumed or scattered among > other topics: Because last time around we foundered for lack of clarity and > several issues and because my focal long term interest in the role of > culture in human development has not abated in the interim. > > No problem if its not interesting or potentially useful for xmca members. > mike > > -------------------- > David --- > Picking on just one thread from your multiplex comments in the context of > the discussion on printing presses and digital computer > ?technologies, i would like to thank you for juxtaposing these? two > paragraphs, one from LSV on crises in development, the other > from Leontiev. I have made a separate header because I am not agile or > learned enough to keep track of both at the same time, > the ontogenetic level of analysis is plenty enough for me to try to think > systematically about in a single message.. > > \Vygotsky, (could you give pages in current English version so we enter the > relevant portion of the text?): > > These ages (i.e. stable ages--DK) and this type of child development have > been studied more completely than ages characterized by a different course > of child development (i.e.the crisis--DK). These latter were discovered by > empirical paths, one by one, in a haphazard manner, and many have still not > been shown by the majority of investigators in systems and are not included > in the general periodization of child development. Many authors have even > doubted the evidence of the inner necessity of their existence. Many are > inclined to take them more as ?maladies? of development, as deviations of > the process fromthe normal path, than as internally necessary periods of > child development. Almost none of the bourgeois investigators have realized > their theoretical signfiicance, and the attempt in our book at their > systematization, at their theoretical interpretation, and at their > inclusion in the general scheme of child development for this reason should > be seen as perhaps the first attempt of this kind." > > Compare: > > ?These crises?the three year old crisis, the seven year old crisis, the > adolescent crisis, the youth crisis?are always associated with a change of > stage. They indicate in clear, obvious form that these changes, these > transitions from one stage to another have an inner necessity of their > own. The existence of development of crises has long been known and their > ?classic? interpretation is that they are caused by the child?s maturing > inner characteristics and the contradictions that arise on that soil > between it andthe environment. From the standpoint of that interpretation > the crises are, of course, inevitable, because these contradictions are > inevitable in any conditions. There is nothing more false, however, in the > theory of the development of the child?s psyche than this idea. In fact, > crises are not at all inevitable accomplishments of psychic development. It > is not the crises which are inevitable, but the turning points or breaks, > the qualitative shifts in development. T*he crisis, on the contrary, is* > > > > *evidence that a turning point or shift has not been made in time. > Thereneed by no crises at all if the child?s psychic development does not > takeshape spontaneously but in a rationally controlled process, > controlledupbringing.? (pp. 398-399)* > > Leontiev, A.N. (1981). Problems of the Development of the Mind. Progress: > Moscow > > ?I take the *marked?* text to be the crux of the argument, and the kind of > difference we see in the two men's articles about the "problem of the > environment." > > In American developmental psychology the issue of continuities and > discontinuities in ontogenetic development > continues today the discussion taking place in the 1920's and 1930's. But I > have never seen anyone argue that (say) the syndrome > of behaviors identified as "the terrible twos" occurs because a turning > point has not happened in time, nor that ontogeny is rendered continuous by > rational control of parents/society. That, it seems, is the red thread of > Stalinism that is so offputting in ANL. > > I do not love LSV's characterization of non-Soviet psychologists treating > such periods "as deviations of the process from the normal path." I am not > sure who he is referring to, and perhaps he is right and I just need to dig > deeper into the history of European and American developmental psychology. > Piaget and Erikson, two Europeans whose work was influential from the > 1950/60's don't, at least on the surface, fit this discussion. Maybe they > do below the surface, or there are other, allied issue to raised. > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Mar 20 16:59:30 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 16:59:30 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah, I see Huw. In a sense I read ANL backward. Turns and shifts are inevitable, but not crises. So ANL is saying there can be turning points and shifts but no crisis so long as it all happens on time under rational control. And you are saying that in your experience with your son, there were some "negation experiments" but no crisis. So ANL is right and you and your wife are rationally controlling your the process of upbringing! Obviously, even if no one else needs to, i need to go back and look at the examples of crises that LSV writes about. I wonder what experiences with his daughter could have led LSV into error. :-)) thanks. my reading was inadequate. mike And On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 4:31 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Mike, > > In the paragraph you provide, ANL doesn't say that the development is > continuous: "the turning points or breaks, the qualitative shifts in > development". The assertion that the crisis can be avoided isn't the same > thing as saying that there will not be a fundamental change. > > In my recollection, we did not have any issues at 2. We did have some > interesting 'negation experimentation', but those 'no's seemed to have a > special meaning, so it simply required a bit more attention. That seems to > support ANL's assertion. > > Huw > > > > > On 20 March 2015 at 15:55, mike cole wrote: > > > Thanks for pointing out my error in using color to code the part of the > > text I was trying to draw attention to, Andy. I will repeat here using > > *italics.* > > > > You ask in a follow up note why I suggest that perhaps a return to LSV's > > theory of alternating crises and lithic (relatively stable) periods of > > development might be worth returning to investigate again after a few > years > > of the topic having been subsumed or scattered among > > other topics: Because last time around we foundered for lack of clarity > and > > several issues and because my focal long term interest in the role of > > culture in human development has not abated in the interim. > > > > No problem if its not interesting or potentially useful for xmca members. > > mike > > > > -------------------- > > David --- > > Picking on just one thread from your multiplex comments in the context of > > the discussion on printing presses and digital computer > > ?technologies, i would like to thank you for juxtaposing these? two > > paragraphs, one from LSV on crises in development, the other > > from Leontiev. I have made a separate header because I am not agile or > > learned enough to keep track of both at the same time, > > the ontogenetic level of analysis is plenty enough for me to try to think > > systematically about in a single message.. > > > > \Vygotsky, (could you give pages in current English version so we enter > the > > relevant portion of the text?): > > > > These ages (i.e. stable ages--DK) and this type of child development have > > been studied more completely than ages characterized by a different > course > > of child development (i.e.the crisis--DK). These latter were discovered > by > > empirical paths, one by one, in a haphazard manner, and many have still > not > > been shown by the majority of investigators in systems and are not > included > > in the general periodization of child development. Many authors have even > > doubted the evidence of the inner necessity of their existence. Many are > > inclined to take them more as ?maladies? of development, as deviations of > > the process fromthe normal path, than as internally necessary periods of > > child development. Almost none of the bourgeois investigators have > realized > > their theoretical signfiicance, and the attempt in our book at their > > systematization, at their theoretical interpretation, and at their > > inclusion in the general scheme of child development for this reason > should > > be seen as perhaps the first attempt of this kind." > > > > Compare: > > > > ?These crises?the three year old crisis, the seven year old crisis, the > > adolescent crisis, the youth crisis?are always associated with a change > of > > stage. They indicate in clear, obvious form that these changes, these > > transitions from one stage to another have an inner necessity of their > > own. The existence of development of crises has long been known and their > > ?classic? interpretation is that they are caused by the child?s maturing > > inner characteristics and the contradictions that arise on that soil > > between it andthe environment. From the standpoint of that interpretation > > the crises are, of course, inevitable, because these contradictions are > > inevitable in any conditions. There is nothing more false, however, in > the > > theory of the development of the child?s psyche than this idea. In fact, > > crises are not at all inevitable accomplishments of psychic development. > It > > is not the crises which are inevitable, but the turning points or breaks, > > the qualitative shifts in development. T*he crisis, on the contrary, is* > > > > > > > > *evidence that a turning point or shift has not been made in time. > > Thereneed by no crises at all if the child?s psychic development does not > > takeshape spontaneously but in a rationally controlled process, > > controlledupbringing.? (pp. 398-399)* > > > > Leontiev, A.N. (1981). Problems of the Development of the Mind. Progress: > > Moscow > > > > ?I take the *marked?* text to be the crux of the argument, and the kind > of > > difference we see in the two men's articles about the "problem of the > > environment." > > > > In American developmental psychology the issue of continuities and > > discontinuities in ontogenetic development > > continues today the discussion taking place in the 1920's and 1930's. > But I > > have never seen anyone argue that (say) the syndrome > > of behaviors identified as "the terrible twos" occurs because a turning > > point has not happened in time, nor that ontogeny is rendered continuous > by > > rational control of parents/society. That, it seems, is the red thread of > > Stalinism that is so offputting in ANL. > > > > I do not love LSV's characterization of non-Soviet psychologists > treating > > such periods "as deviations of the process from the normal path." I am > not > > sure who he is referring to, and perhaps he is right and I just need to > dig > > deeper into the history of European and American developmental > psychology. > > Piaget and Erikson, two Europeans whose work was influential from the > > 1950/60's don't, at least on the surface, fit this discussion. Maybe they > > do below the surface, or there are other, allied issue to raised. > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Mar 20 17:14:57 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 09:14:57 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vygotsky says: ??????, ??? ??? ??????????? ?????? ?? ??????. ? ?????? ????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ??-???????. ????? ?????????? ??????? ?????? ???????? ? ?????????? ??????? ???? ? ???????? ??????? ?? ???? ???????? ? ?? ?????????? ???????? ?????, ??? ? ?????????? ???????. ? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ??????????? ???????-?????? ???? ?????????? ??????????????????? ? ???????? ???????? ?????????? ? ??? ????????. ???????? ?????? ???????? ? ?????????? ???? ????????? ? ?????? ????? ? ??????????? ??????? ??????? ? ?????????? ??????? ?? ?????????? ?????? ??????? ????????? ??????????? ? ??????, ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ????????? ?????? - ?? ???????? ?? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???????? ?????? ????????? ????????????? ??????? ?????????????? ??????????? ?? ??????? ??????? ? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ?????????? ?????? ???????????, ??? ???????? ? ??????? ???????? ???????? (??????? ? ??.). "It is true that this happens far from always. In different children the critical age will unfold differently. Here there exists far more variation in the unfolding of the crisis, even among children who are most similar in the type and social situation of development, than in stable periods. In many children there is never any clearly expressed unteachability or reduction of school achievement in this age. The large range of variation in the unfolding of these ags in different children and the striking influence of external and internal conditions on the unfolding of the crisis itself is so significant and large that it gives rise to many authors raising the question of whether or not the general crisis of child development is purely the product of adverse external effects upon the child?s condition alone and whether or not they should therefore be considered an exception rather than a rule in the history of child development (Busemann, etc.)" Vygotsky then goes on to argue that all the absence of the crisis in some children means is that we need to use a RELATIVE YARDSTICK (you remember he talked about relative yardsticks at the beginning of "Problem of the Environment" when he set out the necessity of different units of analysis for different problems (which is why I agree with Andy that the SSD is an adequate unit of analysis for SOME problems but not for the crisis). He says that even in kids like Huw's, who experience no apparent crisis, we can observe that particular periods appear to stand out against more stable periods in three respects: a) Unlike the stable periods, they have a PEAK (or rather a trough, viewed from the point of view activity) and they do not have definite boundaries (stable periods are the opposite--they have boundaries defined by the crises but no very clear peak). b) They are characterized by RELATIVE ???????????????????, which I am translating as "hard upbringing" or "difficult raising"; that is, the child is relatively unteachable compared to stable periods (this is very obviously true in transitions between one form of grammar and another!) c) They are characterized by NEGATIVE construction. This isn't the same thing as ???????????????????; I think what Vygotsky means is there is more destruction and abandonment of the interests and inclination of the previous period than there is discovery of new interests and new inclination. This brings us back to the "tragedy of creativity" that Vygotsky explored in his essays on imagination: the child appears to, for example, draw almost manically during a period of development and then, just when the child appears to our eyes to be making some progress, gives it all up and takes up writing instead; once again, the child sets to composing his or her memoirs, but then gives that up and takes up something different. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies c) . On 21 March 2015 at 08:59, mike cole wrote: > Ah, I see Huw. In a sense I read ANL backward. Turns and shifts are > inevitable, but not crises. So ANL is saying there can be turning points > and shifts but no crisis so long as it all happens on time under rational > control. > > And you are saying that in your experience with your son, there were some > "negation experiments" but no crisis. So ANL is right and you and your wife > are rationally controlling > your the process of upbringing! > > Obviously, even if no one else needs to, i need to go back and look at the > examples of crises that LSV writes about. I wonder what experiences with > his daughter could have led LSV > into error. :-)) > > thanks. my reading was inadequate. > mike > > > > > And > > > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 4:31 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > Mike, > > > > In the paragraph you provide, ANL doesn't say that the development is > > continuous: "the turning points or breaks, the qualitative shifts in > > development". The assertion that the crisis can be avoided isn't the > same > > thing as saying that there will not be a fundamental change. > > > > In my recollection, we did not have any issues at 2. We did have some > > interesting 'negation experimentation', but those 'no's seemed to have a > > special meaning, so it simply required a bit more attention. That seems > to > > support ANL's assertion. > > > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > On 20 March 2015 at 15:55, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Thanks for pointing out my error in using color to code the part of the > > > text I was trying to draw attention to, Andy. I will repeat here using > > > *italics.* > > > > > > You ask in a follow up note why I suggest that perhaps a return to > LSV's > > > theory of alternating crises and lithic (relatively stable) periods of > > > development might be worth returning to investigate again after a few > > years > > > of the topic having been subsumed or scattered among > > > other topics: Because last time around we foundered for lack of clarity > > and > > > several issues and because my focal long term interest in the role of > > > culture in human development has not abated in the interim. > > > > > > No problem if its not interesting or potentially useful for xmca > members. > > > mike > > > > > > -------------------- > > > David --- > > > Picking on just one thread from your multiplex comments in the context > of > > > the discussion on printing presses and digital computer > > > ?technologies, i would like to thank you for juxtaposing these? two > > > paragraphs, one from LSV on crises in development, the other > > > from Leontiev. I have made a separate header because I am not agile or > > > learned enough to keep track of both at the same time, > > > the ontogenetic level of analysis is plenty enough for me to try to > think > > > systematically about in a single message.. > > > > > > \Vygotsky, (could you give pages in current English version so we enter > > the > > > relevant portion of the text?): > > > > > > These ages (i.e. stable ages--DK) and this type of child development > have > > > been studied more completely than ages characterized by a different > > course > > > of child development (i.e.the crisis--DK). These latter were discovered > > by > > > empirical paths, one by one, in a haphazard manner, and many have still > > not > > > been shown by the majority of investigators in systems and are not > > included > > > in the general periodization of child development. Many authors have > even > > > doubted the evidence of the inner necessity of their existence. Many > are > > > inclined to take them more as ?maladies? of development, as deviations > of > > > the process fromthe normal path, than as internally necessary periods > of > > > child development. Almost none of the bourgeois investigators have > > realized > > > their theoretical signfiicance, and the attempt in our book at their > > > systematization, at their theoretical interpretation, and at their > > > inclusion in the general scheme of child development for this reason > > should > > > be seen as perhaps the first attempt of this kind." > > > > > > Compare: > > > > > > ?These crises?the three year old crisis, the seven year old crisis, > the > > > adolescent crisis, the youth crisis?are always associated with a change > > of > > > stage. They indicate in clear, obvious form that these changes, these > > > transitions from one stage to another have an inner necessity of their > > > own. The existence of development of crises has long been known and > their > > > ?classic? interpretation is that they are caused by the child?s > maturing > > > inner characteristics and the contradictions that arise on that soil > > > between it andthe environment. From the standpoint of that > interpretation > > > the crises are, of course, inevitable, because these contradictions are > > > inevitable in any conditions. There is nothing more false, however, in > > the > > > theory of the development of the child?s psyche than this idea. In > fact, > > > crises are not at all inevitable accomplishments of psychic > development. > > It > > > is not the crises which are inevitable, but the turning points or > breaks, > > > the qualitative shifts in development. T*he crisis, on the contrary, > is* > > > > > > > > > > > > *evidence that a turning point or shift has not been made in time. > > > Thereneed by no crises at all if the child?s psychic development does > not > > > takeshape spontaneously but in a rationally controlled process, > > > controlledupbringing.? (pp. 398-399)* > > > > > > Leontiev, A.N. (1981). Problems of the Development of the Mind. > Progress: > > > Moscow > > > > > > ?I take the *marked?* text to be the crux of the argument, and the kind > > of > > > difference we see in the two men's articles about the "problem of the > > > environment." > > > > > > In American developmental psychology the issue of continuities and > > > discontinuities in ontogenetic development > > > continues today the discussion taking place in the 1920's and 1930's. > > But I > > > have never seen anyone argue that (say) the syndrome > > > of behaviors identified as "the terrible twos" occurs because a turning > > > point has not happened in time, nor that ontogeny is rendered > continuous > > by > > > rational control of parents/society. That, it seems, is the red thread > of > > > Stalinism that is so offputting in ANL. > > > > > > I do not love LSV's characterization of non-Soviet psychologists > > treating > > > such periods "as deviations of the process from the normal path." I am > > not > > > sure who he is referring to, and perhaps he is right and I just need to > > dig > > > deeper into the history of European and American developmental > > psychology. > > > Piaget and Erikson, two Europeans whose work was influential from the > > > 1950/60's don't, at least on the surface, fit this discussion. Maybe > they > > > do below the surface, or there are other, allied issue to raised. > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From ablunden@mira.net Fri Mar 20 17:47:19 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 11:47:19 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> I think Huw put the alternative interpretation of Leontyev's words very well. There *is* a difference there, but it is not as profound as at first sight. I don't agree with the cast David has put on my view though. It is precisely in understanding the crises as being transitions between SSDs which is where SSD is invaluable as the unit. In general of course it is true, that a unit shed light on a specific problem, and is not the key to everything. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ David Kellogg wrote: > ... he set out the necessity of different units of analysis > for different problems (which is why I agree with Andy that the SSD is an > adequate unit of analysis for SOME problems but not for the crisis). He > says that even in kids like Huw's, who experience no apparent crisis, we > can observe that particular periods appear to stand out against more stable > periods in three respects: > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Mar 20 17:46:10 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 17:46:10 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages In-Reply-To: References: <550B7C3B.8060602@mira.net> <550B8A04.6050809@mira.net> <550B8ACC.6080607@mira.net> Message-ID: Thanks for all the extra material, David. As usual, an overabundance of interlocking issues to grapple with..... sort of like development itself. With respect to your Point A a discussion and empirical example that might be considered a possible exception to your generalization concerning critical accounts of the zoped can be found on pp. 137ff of Newman, Griffin, & Cole, *The Construction Zone. * mike On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 2:57 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > What we're translating here in Korea is the second half of the manuscript > published by Galina Serpionovna Korotaeva in the Department of German > Philology at the Udmurt University in Izhevsk in 2001. It's available in > Russian on the Vygotsky Internet Archive as the second part of ?????? ?? > ????????? > < > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > >, > 1935. We published the first part of this book in Korean in January: > > http://www.aladin.co.kr/shop/wproduct.aspx?ISBN=8994445803 > > The second part (on Crises and Stable Periods) should be ready in January > 2016. > > The Korotaeva manuscript hasn't been translated into any language, but > there are parts of it in Volume Five of the English Collected Works Volume > Five, and the passage that I quoted can be found, more or less, on p. 191. > > Unfortunately, that's not true for much of the manuscript. > > ?????? 3 ? 7 ??? > > (The Crisis at Three and the Crisis at Seven) > > ?????????? ???? ??????????? ???????? > > (Negative Phases of the Transitional Age) > > ???????? ??????? . > > (School Age) > > ???????? ????????? > > (Thinking in the School Child) > As you can see, this isn't in the Collected Works at all, so as Mike says > it's well worth revisiting the discussion. > > But I can think of three non-textological reasons for revisiting this > material. > > a) Almost ALL of the interpretations of the zone of proximal development > used in the West are non-critical--that is, they see "development" as a > kind of improved way of adapting to the environment. But even a cursory > reading of this manuscript makes it clear that is not what Vygotsky means > when he speaks of development (even if we didn't know this already from the > emphasis on the development of free will in HDHMF). > > b) Andy's interpretation of the text in Volume Five overemphasizes the > social situation of development, and for this reason does not provide an > adequate explanation of the CAUSES of the crisis (which in my view are not > caused by the environment directly. Even my own critique of Andy's > interpretation at the time underemphasized the intrinsic side of > neoformations; it falls into the kinds of developmental schemata that > Vygotsky calls "eclectic" here (I used a basket of verbal, mental, and > material processes without bothering to find some intrinsic link between > them). > > c) There are also issues which Vygotsky himself does not appear to resolve, > for example, the nature of CRITICAL neoformations. These cannot be entirely > negative--that is, "neo-disformations", because they do not entirely > disappear in the subsequent age. But what are they? > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > PS, for those who are not sticking to the one screen rule: I think that > when Vygotsky criticizes "bourgeois psychologists", he is simply using his > usual tactic of naming a distant target in order to avoid naming names > close to home (this is why he is so very eloquent on the subject of Watson > and Thorndike and has so little to say against Pavlov and Bekhterev). > > On the one hand, Mike is right when he says that Western psychologists, and > in particular pedologists, were all talking about the crises. In fact a lot > of this chapter consists of polemics against their periodizations of the > crisis: Binet's, Stratz's, Stern's, Buhler's and Busemann's. > > Here's an abstract of the Busemann paper that Vygotsky critiques: > > Die Erregungsphasen der Jugend. / The excitation phases of youth. > > Busemann, A. > > Zeitschrift f?r Kinderforschung, Vol 33, 1927, 115-137. > > Abstract > > The author takes as his text the thesis of Siegert (Die Periodizit?t in der > Entwicklung der Kindesnatur, 1891) that children develop not according to a > smooth upward curve of physical and mental progress, but rather by an > irregular course of "favorable and unfavorable phases," so that the > impression of periodicity is given. In a careful review of recent European > work, including a few of the older studies in English, the author finds > striking evidence of critical phases in the development of children. Among > the experimental studies reported are Busemann's own contributions in the > field of early speech development and of moral judgments. The article > serves as an historical background and field of enlargement to them. The > critical phases or periods of excitation the writer places roughly at ages > 3, 6, 9, 12 or 13, 16 or 17, and perhaps at 19 or 20. The Binet tests do > not show the variations in response at the critical ages as do some other > intelligence tests, probably, the author believes, because they are > constructed in such a way as to take account of these variations in rate of > psychological development. Country children reach the successive excitation > crises somewhat later than city children. A theory of physiological and > psychological phase and counterphase is advanced in explanation of the > developmental rhythm: the progress of development proceeds until in the > emotional-subjective sphere a supernormal phase occurs. The passing of a > certain high point in this sphere then releases or stimulates a > compensatory development in the intentional-objective sphere. The apparent > correlation between the appearance of the excitation phases and rapidity in > anatomical growth lends evidence in favor of a structural basis for the > observed behavior phenomena. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all > rights reserved). > > > On the other, there were a lot of SOVIET pedologists who did not believe in > the crisis (including Vygotsky's friend Blonsky, and, as we've seen, > Leontiev). Actually, they are still at it. Look at this: > > ?...(G)iving more freedom to adolescents in making their own choices over > minor issues could substantially reduce the frequency of their conflicts > with parents. Even when dealing with more serious issues, a parent saying > ?I?m older than you and your elder, so do what i say? does not seem to be > an effective strategy (Larson & Richards, 1994, p. 140). Rather than that, > to both reach an acceptable solution and avoid excessive conflicts with > adolescents, parents should reason with them on disputable issues, which is > now possible because of their children?s new formal-logical abilities > (Larson & Richards, 1994). On the basis of the discussion above, it would > be reasonable to suggest that conflicts between adolescents and their > parents are heavily determined by parent-adolescent styles of interaction; > that is, they are anything but inevitable.? (pp. 226-227) > > > > Karpov, Y.V. (2005). The Neo-Vygotskyan Approach to Child Development. > Cambridge: Cambridge University Press > > dk > > On 21 March 2015 at 04:41, David H Kirshner wrote: > > > Andy, you're slurring your spelling. > > David > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 9:50 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Crises and stages/ages > > > > Oops! "Peter Principle" not "Peer Principle" > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Mar 20 18:10:40 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 18:10:40 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Review=3A_From_the_History_of_Soviet_Philosophy=3AL?= =?utf-8?q?uk=C3=A1cs_-_Vygotsky_-_Ilyenkov?= In-Reply-To: <1426827527327.95752@unm.edu> References: <1426827527327.95752@unm.edu> Message-ID: looks interesting, Annalisa. Thanks. mike On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 9:58 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Esteemed Xmcars, > > > I spied this in my notifications on Academia.edu and thought you might > want to take a gander. It's by Alex Levant. > > > > https://www.academia.edu/1454708/From_the_History_of_Soviet_Philosophy_Lukacs-Vygotsky-Ilyenkov_2011_ > ? > > > Here is the Abstract: > > > This review-essay explores the subterranean tradition of 'creative Soviet > Marxism' through a recent book by the Russian philosopher Sergey Mareev, > From the History of Soviet Philosophy:Luk?cs - Vygotsky - Ilyenkov (2008). > It provides a brief overview of the history of Soviet philosophy so as to > orient the reader to a set of debates that continue to be largely > unexplored in the Western-Marxist tradition. Mareev o?ers a new account of > the development of Soviet philosophy that not only explodes the myth that > Soviet philosophy was simply state-sanctioned dogma, butalso reinterprets > the relationship between the key creative theorists so as to o?er a new way > of understanding its development that challenges several key-aspects of the > dominant Westernscholarship on this subject. He argues that alongside > o?cial Marxist philosophy in the SovietUnion - the crude materialism of > Diamat and Istmat - there existed another line, whichcounterposed the > central r?le of social activity in the development of human consciousness. > Hetraces this line of anti-positivist theory from V.I. Lenin through Georg > Luk?cs and Lev Vygotsky to Evald Ilyenkov - a pivotal ?gure in the 'Marxian > renaissance' of the 1960s, but who 'has tothis day remained a Soviet > phenomenon without much international in?uence'. Speci?cally,Mareev > disputes the r?le of A.M. Deborin as a precursor of the Ilyenkov school, > and insteadintroduces Georg Luk?cs - a ?gure primarily recognised in the > West as one of the founders of Western Marxism - into the line of > development of creative Soviet Marxism. Furthermore, hereconsiders the r?le > of V.I. Lenin and G.V. Plekhanov - the so-called father of Russian > socialdemocracy - in the development of Soviet philosophy. In the process, > the author provides adetailed history of the emergence of Diamat and > Istmat, and shines a spotlight on a ?gure widely recognised as the most > important Soviet philosopher in the post-Stalin period - E.V. Ilyenkov. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Mar 20 19:33:57 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 02:33:57 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> Message-ID: As a unit, 'SSD' should be referring to conditions which are necessary to go through for the subsequent 'unfolding'. But SSD as a referent to all important (and less important) stages can easily become overly abstract. For the fundamental developmental situations, we are looking for conditions under which the nature of cognition changes, so milder situations like career progression are not in the same category. The way I think of this is that the child's old form of social support is no longer suitable. Not only is the support deemed to be too restrictive, but the semantic interpretation that the child places upon the old form of support is experienced as being 'wrong'. When the two year old says "no", I suspect that s/he may sometimes be saying "no, you've got it wrong". The child certainly seems to communicate similarly complex expressions such as pushing an object out of sight, pulling it back and then smiling at an adult as if to say, "Isn't that amazing, it was still there!" or, perhaps "Look, I made it reappear!" An adult version of that semantic difficulty is perhaps evident in the shift of meanings between formal and genetic/dialectical materialist logic. The terms abstract, generalisation, ideal, material, universal, concrete, unit all have different meanings along with many other differences, hence the old way of knowing may interfere with the natural progression. Huw On 21 March 2015 at 00:47, Andy Blunden wrote: > I think Huw put the alternative interpretation of Leontyev's words very > well. There *is* a difference there, but it is not as profound as at first > sight. > I don't agree with the cast David has put on my view though. It is > precisely in understanding the crises as being transitions between SSDs > which is where SSD is invaluable as the unit. > In general of course it is true, that a unit shed light on a specific > problem, and is not the key to everything. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > David Kellogg wrote: > >> ... he set out the necessity of different units of analysis >> for different problems (which is why I agree with Andy that the SSD is an >> adequate unit of analysis for SOME problems but not for the crisis). He >> says that even in kids like Huw's, who experience no apparent crisis, we >> can observe that particular periods appear to stand out against more >> stable >> periods in three respects: >> >> > > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Mar 20 20:24:09 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 03:24:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net>, Message-ID: <1426908247624.62086@unm.edu> Would someone be so kind as to unpack the acronym "SSD?" TQ, Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Fri Mar 20 20:28:45 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 14:28:45 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <1426908247624.62086@unm.edu> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net>, <1426908247624.62086@unm.edu> Message-ID: <550CE56D.603@mira.net> SSD= "social situation of development" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Would someone be so kind as to unpack the acronym "SSD?" > > TQ, > > Annalisa > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Fri Mar 20 20:28:18 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 14:28:18 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> Message-ID: <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> Huw, what I think is distinctive about SSD for child development, as opposed to adult personality development, is that there is still a significant biological process of maturation and growth going on which constantly challenges social arrangements. This is not the case for adults. An adult can get a job when they leave school and stay in that job for life, except that the *social* arrangements keep challenging the individual. Also, I don't think all this is best conceived in terms of *cognition* - there are a lot of other psychological processes involved. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Huw Lloyd wrote: > As a unit, 'SSD' should be referring to conditions which are > necessary to go through for the subsequent 'unfolding'. But SSD as a > referent to all important (and less important) stages can easily > become overly abstract. > > For the fundamental developmental situations, we are looking for > conditions under which the nature of cognition changes, so milder > situations like career progression are not in the same category. > > The way I think of this is that the child's old form of social support > is no longer suitable. Not only is the support deemed to be too > restrictive, but the semantic interpretation that the child places > upon the old form of support is experienced as being 'wrong'. When > the two year old says "no", I suspect that s/he may sometimes be > saying "no, you've got it wrong". The child certainly seems to > communicate similarly complex expressions such as pushing an object > out of sight, pulling it back and then smiling at an adult as if to > say, "Isn't that amazing, it was still there!" or, perhaps "Look, I > made it reappear!" > > An adult version of that semantic difficulty is perhaps evident in the > shift of meanings between formal and genetic/dialectical materialist > logic. The terms abstract, generalisation, ideal, material, > universal, concrete, unit all have different meanings along with many > other differences, hence the old way of knowing may interfere with the > natural progression. > > Huw > > > > > > On 21 March 2015 at 00:47, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > I think Huw put the alternative interpretation of Leontyev's words > very well. There *is* a difference there, but it is not as > profound as at first sight. > I don't agree with the cast David has put on my view though. It is > precisely in understanding the crises as being transitions between > SSDs which is where SSD is invaluable as the unit. > In general of course it is true, that a unit shed light on a > specific problem, and is not the key to everything. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > David Kellogg wrote: > > ... he set out the necessity of different units of analysis > for different problems (which is why I agree with Andy that > the SSD is an > adequate unit of analysis for SOME problems but not for the > crisis). He > says that even in kids like Huw's, who experience no apparent > crisis, we > can observe that particular periods appear to stand out > against more stable > periods in three respects: > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Mar 20 21:36:15 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 04:36:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> , <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> Message-ID: <1426912575323.4704@unm.edu> Thanks Andy. Is SSD considered your unit for analysis here? Also, I do think we continue to biologically mature and grow beyond childhood, and these realities constantly challenge social arrangements, albeit of a much different character than during child development, I'll grant. Consider pregnant women? Is a father caring for a family of 4 compared to a family of 10 a biological process of biological maturation or merely a social one? There have been studies of men whose hormones change once they begin caring for and bond with their young children. So if that is true, the hormone changes may generate for a longer time period for the family with 8 kids compared to 2. And how might this work for an extended family versus an isolated one? What happens when on becomes infirm, either from whooping cough, a toothache, food poisoning, or a car accident injury? or struggles with a fatal illness like cancer or perhaps tuberculosis? Don't we also shift our social realities as we slow down and transfigure into our silver years once we begin to depend upon others while we simultaneously rage against the dying of the light? Is this not biological? If so, how is it not biological? I don't mean to conflate child development with adult development; I agree that they are different, but perhaps it is an error to base our thought upon concepts that adults stop developing biologically. It's just different (perhaps an downward arc of mortality rather than an upward one), and it may not happen as uniformly as child developmental processes, if we can even call those uniform. Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Mar 20 21:37:14 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 21:37:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <1426908247624.62086@unm.edu> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <1426908247624.62086@unm.edu> Message-ID: SSD=Social situation of development. On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Would someone be so kind as to unpack the acronym "SSD?" > > TQ, > > Annalisa > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Mar 20 21:49:47 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 04:49:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <1426908247624.62086@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1426913386787.99614@unm.edu> Thanks mike! I forgot to ask: Where does SSD derive? Did LSV use this? How does this differentiate from the environment? In other words, is the environment contained inside the social situation or vice versa? Or are they identical (equal)? Kind regards, Annalisa On Friday, March 20, 2015 10:37 PM, mike cole wrote: SSD=Social situation of development. On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Would someone be so kind as to unpack the acronym "SSD?" > > TQ, > > Annalisa > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Mar 20 21:54:57 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 21:54:57 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <1426913386787.99614@unm.edu> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <1426908247624.62086@unm.edu> <1426913386787.99614@unm.edu> Message-ID: I had pretty good luck by googling the following: vygotsky " social situation of development" mike On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Thanks mike! > > I forgot to ask: Where does SSD derive? Did LSV use this? > > How does this differentiate from the environment? In other words, is the > environment contained inside the social situation or vice versa? Or are > they identical (equal)? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > On Friday, March 20, 2015 10:37 PM, mike cole wrote: > > SSD=Social situation of development. > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > Would someone be so kind as to unpack the acronym "SSD?" > > > > TQ, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ablunden@mira.net Fri Mar 20 21:57:51 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 15:57:51 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <1426913386787.99614@unm.edu> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <1426908247624.62086@unm.edu>, <1426913386787.99614@unm.edu> Message-ID: <550CFA4F.6010805@mira.net> SSD is a term defined by Vygotsky in his study of Child Development in Volume 6 of the Collected Works. See https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-age.htm The SSD is a unique relationship between the (social) environment and the child, designated by normative cultural terms such as "school child" or "infgant" etc. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Thanks mike! > > I forgot to ask: Where does SSD derive? Did LSV use this? > > How does this differentiate from the environment? In other words, is the environment contained inside the social situation or vice versa? Or are they identical (equal)? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > On Friday, March 20, 2015 10:37 PM, mike cole wrote: > > SSD=Social situation of development. > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > >> Would someone be so kind as to unpack the acronym "SSD?" >> >> TQ, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Mar 20 21:58:24 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 04:58:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <1426908247624.62086@unm.edu> <1426913386787.99614@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1426913904394.42752@unm.edu> Fair nuff! :) ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 10:54 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy I had pretty good luck by googling the following: vygotsky " social situation of development" mike On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Thanks mike! > > I forgot to ask: Where does SSD derive? Did LSV use this? > > How does this differentiate from the environment? In other words, is the > environment contained inside the social situation or vice versa? Or are > they identical (equal)? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > On Friday, March 20, 2015 10:37 PM, mike cole wrote: > > SSD=Social situation of development. > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > Would someone be so kind as to unpack the acronym "SSD?" > > > > TQ, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ablunden@mira.net Fri Mar 20 22:18:56 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 16:18:56 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <1426912575323.4704@unm.edu> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> , <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <1426912575323.4704@unm.edu> Message-ID: <550CFF40.5040609@mira.net> Annalisa, I don't care tuppence about drawing a line between childhood and adulthood or when and if biological growth stops, etc. The closely related concept, perezhivanie, works well for adulthood. Perezhivanie just refers to situations which either open doors for you, or shut a door in your face, so to speak. It just doesn't depend on a natural process of growth generating contradictions. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Thanks Andy. Is SSD considered your unit for analysis here? > > Also, I do think we continue to biologically mature and grow beyond childhood, and these realities constantly challenge social arrangements, albeit of a much different character than during child development, I'll grant. > > Consider pregnant women? Is a father caring for a family of 4 compared to a family of 10 a biological process of biological maturation or merely a social one? There have been studies of men whose hormones change once they begin caring for and bond with their young children. So if that is true, the hormone changes may generate for a longer time period for the family with 8 kids compared to 2. And how might this work for an extended family versus an isolated one? > > What happens when on becomes infirm, either from whooping cough, a toothache, food poisoning, or a car accident injury? or struggles with a fatal illness like cancer or perhaps tuberculosis? > > Don't we also shift our social realities as we slow down and transfigure into our silver years once we begin to depend upon others while we simultaneously rage against the dying of the light? > > Is this not biological? If so, how is it not biological? > > I don't mean to conflate child development with adult development; I agree that they are different, but perhaps it is an error to base our thought upon concepts that adults stop developing biologically. It's just different (perhaps an downward arc of mortality rather than an upward one), and it may not happen as uniformly as child developmental processes, if we can even call those uniform. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Mar 21 00:32:48 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 07:32:48 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <550CFF40.5040609@mira.net> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> , <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <1426912575323.4704@unm.edu>,<550CFF40.5040609@mira.net> Message-ID: <1426923167471.61159@unm.edu> Thanks for providing an example of perezhivanie, Andy. I thought the topic was upon crisis in ontogeny, but OK. From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Sat Mar 21 02:04:04 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 09:04:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: SSD and Perezhivanie Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CDE5B@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> I find this short explanation of the SSD really helpful, Andy. This makes it more like a form of social affordance so not something which can be sliced into 'units' but more of a relationship BETWEEN a person and the social environment as experienced by that person. What makes it so rich is that the environment can meet itself coming back - but not quite itself, instead a version of itself transformed by the perezhivanie of the person who experiences it in a particular way and responds in a particular way. So in a conversation we learn about our friends by (often not consciously) noticing how our contributions are refracted by their perezhivanie. Clearly, in ontogeny, a variety of maturational changes (increasing mobility, increasing interest in other people's attention, increasing ability to 'read' social situations and increasing autonomy for example) will change the interactional space between child and caregivers and it is not surprising that caregivers are not always fully able to keep up, leading to 'crises' of varying degrees. How critical a crisis turns out to be is surely as much due to the caregiver's expectations and culture ('You WILL respect my authority!') as to the child's 'inner' state and the space between is negotiated and adjusted from both sides. All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: 21 March 2015 04:58 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy SSD is a term defined by Vygotsky in his study of Child Development in Volume 6 of the Collected Works. See https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-age.htm The SSD is a unique relationship between the (social) environment and the child, designated by normative cultural terms such as "school child" or "infgant" etc. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Thanks mike! > > I forgot to ask: Where does SSD derive? Did LSV use this? > > How does this differentiate from the environment? In other words, is the environment contained inside the social situation or vice versa? Or are they identical (equal)? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > On Friday, March 20, 2015 10:37 PM, mike cole wrote: > > SSD=Social situation of development. > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > >> Would someone be so kind as to unpack the acronym "SSD?" >> >> TQ, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Sat Mar 21 02:23:43 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 09:23:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: SSD and Perezhivanie In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CDE5B@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CDE5B@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CDE8B@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> I have trouble keeping up with all that burgeons here and I have just seen David's comments on the (in)evitability of crises. Is it possible that Vygotsky had good environmental reasons for focusing on negative shifts in the SSD (he was writing in a particular socio-political environment) and that it might not be sacriligious to suggest that the continuing negotiation of the SSD also includes a lot of positive adjustments. In a similar vein I would prefer to extend (if it is an extension) perezhivanie to cover positive social experiences as well as traumas and crises but I tend to feel as though this will be seen by Vygotsky experts as a naively romantic oversimplification! I know this has been discussed in the past on this forum but I continue to be fascinated by the question of how scholarly study of what Vygotsky and others REALLY meant can be goaded and prodded by questions about what he might perhaps mean if he happened to be writing now. Is there another kind of SSD between the guardians of the truth of history and the bright young things who are inclined to be more playful with their interpretation of what can be done with ideas? And so there will be crises! Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rod Parker-Rees Sent: 21 March 2015 09:04 To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: SSD and Perezhivanie I find this short explanation of the SSD really helpful, Andy. This makes it more like a form of social affordance so not something which can be sliced into 'units' but more of a relationship BETWEEN a person and the social environment as experienced by that person. What makes it so rich is that the environment can meet itself coming back - but not quite itself, instead a version of itself transformed by the perezhivanie of the person who experiences it in a particular way and responds in a particular way. So in a conversation we learn about our friends by (often not consciously) noticing how our contributions are refracted by their perezhivanie. Clearly, in ontogeny, a variety of maturational changes (increasing mobility, increasing interest in other people's attention, increasing ability to 'read' social situations and increasing autonomy for example) will change the interactional space between child and caregivers and it is not surprising that caregivers are not always fully able to keep up, leading to 'crises' of varying degrees. How critical a crisis turns out to be is surely as much due to the caregiver's expectations and culture ('You WILL respect my authority!') as to the child's 'inner' state and the space between is negotiated and adjusted from both sides. All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: 21 March 2015 04:58 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy SSD is a term defined by Vygotsky in his study of Child Development in Volume 6 of the Collected Works. See https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-age.htm The SSD is a unique relationship between the (social) environment and the child, designated by normative cultural terms such as "school child" or "infgant" etc. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Thanks mike! > > I forgot to ask: Where does SSD derive? Did LSV use this? > > How does this differentiate from the environment? In other words, is the environment contained inside the social situation or vice versa? Or are they identical (equal)? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > On Friday, March 20, 2015 10:37 PM, mike cole wrote: > > SSD=Social situation of development. > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > >> Would someone be so kind as to unpack the acronym "SSD?" >> >> TQ, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From ablunden@mira.net Sat Mar 21 02:26:04 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 20:26:04 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: SSD and Perezhivanie In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CDE8B@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CDE5B@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CDE8B@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <550D392C.6000609@mira.net> Perezhivanija can be positive as well as negative, Rod. As when you take a big personal risk, and it pays off. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Rod Parker-Rees wrote: > I have trouble keeping up with all that burgeons here and I have just seen David's comments on the (in)evitability of crises. Is it possible that Vygotsky had good environmental reasons for focusing on negative shifts in the SSD (he was writing in a particular socio-political environment) and that it might not be sacriligious to suggest that the continuing negotiation of the SSD also includes a lot of positive adjustments. In a similar vein I would prefer to extend (if it is an extension) perezhivanie to cover positive social experiences as well as traumas and crises but I tend to feel as though this will be seen by Vygotsky experts as a naively romantic oversimplification! > > I know this has been discussed in the past on this forum but I continue to be fascinated by the question of how scholarly study of what Vygotsky and others REALLY meant can be goaded and prodded by questions about what he might perhaps mean if he happened to be writing now. Is there another kind of SSD between the guardians of the truth of history and the bright young things who are inclined to be more playful with their interpretation of what can be done with ideas? And so there will be crises! > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rod Parker-Rees > Sent: 21 March 2015 09:04 > To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: SSD and Perezhivanie > > I find this short explanation of the SSD really helpful, Andy. This makes it more like a form of social affordance so not something which can be sliced into 'units' but more of a relationship BETWEEN a person and the social environment as experienced by that person. What makes it so rich is that the environment can meet itself coming back - but not quite itself, instead a version of itself transformed by the perezhivanie of the person who experiences it in a particular way and responds in a particular way. So in a conversation we learn about our friends by (often not consciously) noticing how our contributions are refracted by their perezhivanie. > > Clearly, in ontogeny, a variety of maturational changes (increasing mobility, increasing interest in other people's attention, increasing ability to 'read' social situations and increasing autonomy for example) will change the interactional space between child and caregivers and it is not surprising that caregivers are not always fully able to keep up, leading to 'crises' of varying degrees. How critical a crisis turns out to be is surely as much due to the caregiver's expectations and culture ('You WILL respect my authority!') as to the child's 'inner' state and the space between is negotiated and adjusted from both sides. > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: 21 March 2015 04:58 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy > > SSD is a term defined by Vygotsky in his study of Child Development in Volume 6 of the Collected Works. > See https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-age.htm > The SSD is a unique relationship between the (social) environment and the child, designated by normative cultural terms such as "school child" > or "infgant" etc. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> Thanks mike! >> >> I forgot to ask: Where does SSD derive? Did LSV use this? >> >> How does this differentiate from the environment? In other words, is the environment contained inside the social situation or vice versa? Or are they identical (equal)? >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> On Friday, March 20, 2015 10:37 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> SSD=Social situation of development. >> >> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> >> >>> Would someone be so kind as to unpack the acronym "SSD?" >>> >>> TQ, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. > > > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Sat Mar 21 02:59:27 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 09:59:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: SSD and Perezhivanie In-Reply-To: <550D392C.6000609@mira.net> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CDE5B@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CDE8B@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <550D392C.6000609@mira.net> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CDEBA@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Andy, do we need to think of pereshevanija in terms of units/events or in terms of patterns and tendencies? Could we say that to know a person is to have some idea of how a shared social environment is likely to be refracted by their perezhivenija (how we can expect them to respond to events, people and things)? Or would this be an overextension? Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: 21 March 2015 09:26 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: SSD and Perezhivanie Perezhivanija can be positive as well as negative, Rod. As when you take a big personal risk, and it pays off. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Rod Parker-Rees wrote: > I have trouble keeping up with all that burgeons here and I have just seen David's comments on the (in)evitability of crises. Is it possible that Vygotsky had good environmental reasons for focusing on negative shifts in the SSD (he was writing in a particular socio-political environment) and that it might not be sacriligious to suggest that the continuing negotiation of the SSD also includes a lot of positive adjustments. In a similar vein I would prefer to extend (if it is an extension) perezhivanie to cover positive social experiences as well as traumas and crises but I tend to feel as though this will be seen by Vygotsky experts as a naively romantic oversimplification! > > I know this has been discussed in the past on this forum but I continue to be fascinated by the question of how scholarly study of what Vygotsky and others REALLY meant can be goaded and prodded by questions about what he might perhaps mean if he happened to be writing now. Is there another kind of SSD between the guardians of the truth of history and the bright young things who are inclined to be more playful with their interpretation of what can be done with ideas? And so there will be crises! > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rod Parker-Rees > Sent: 21 March 2015 09:04 > To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: SSD and Perezhivanie > > I find this short explanation of the SSD really helpful, Andy. This makes it more like a form of social affordance so not something which can be sliced into 'units' but more of a relationship BETWEEN a person and the social environment as experienced by that person. What makes it so rich is that the environment can meet itself coming back - but not quite itself, instead a version of itself transformed by the perezhivanie of the person who experiences it in a particular way and responds in a particular way. So in a conversation we learn about our friends by (often not consciously) noticing how our contributions are refracted by their perezhivanie. > > Clearly, in ontogeny, a variety of maturational changes (increasing mobility, increasing interest in other people's attention, increasing ability to 'read' social situations and increasing autonomy for example) will change the interactional space between child and caregivers and it is not surprising that caregivers are not always fully able to keep up, leading to 'crises' of varying degrees. How critical a crisis turns out to be is surely as much due to the caregiver's expectations and culture ('You WILL respect my authority!') as to the child's 'inner' state and the space between is negotiated and adjusted from both sides. > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: 21 March 2015 04:58 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy > > SSD is a term defined by Vygotsky in his study of Child Development in Volume 6 of the Collected Works. > See https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-age.htm > The SSD is a unique relationship between the (social) environment and the child, designated by normative cultural terms such as "school child" > or "infgant" etc. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> Thanks mike! >> >> I forgot to ask: Where does SSD derive? Did LSV use this? >> >> How does this differentiate from the environment? In other words, is the environment contained inside the social situation or vice versa? Or are they identical (equal)? >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> On Friday, March 20, 2015 10:37 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> SSD=Social situation of development. >> >> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> >> >>> Would someone be so kind as to unpack the acronym "SSD?" >>> >>> TQ, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. > > > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Mar 21 03:08:29 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 10:08:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, the obvious biological developments manifest as social needs. They strengthen the need for good social relations. Impulses towards crawling, walking, attachment all have their cognitive and communicational elements. Even growing teeth, or simple digestion, has the baby trying to get the adult to do particular things. There are lots of changes, yes, though as they are all closely related a clear change in cognition also shows up in terms of affect, use of memory etc. The casting of profound cognitive changes as only applicable in circumstances where biological change is happening isn't right, I think. Talking of a clear directed development with adults, however, is clearly more problematic from the point of view of labelling people as being more or less developed (from some sort of imputed ideal). As LSV says, there are old adults who have never come to grips with conceptual appreciations, and that is a big difference. Huw On 21 March 2015 at 03:28, Andy Blunden wrote: > Huw, what I think is distinctive about SSD for child development, as > opposed to adult personality development, is that there is still a > significant biological process of maturation and growth going on which > constantly challenges social arrangements. This is not the case for adults. > An adult can get a job when they leave school and stay in that job for > life, except that the *social* arrangements keep challenging the individual. > > Also, I don't think all this is best conceived in terms of *cognition* - > there are a lot of other psychological processes involved. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> As a unit, 'SSD' should be referring to conditions which are necessary >> to go through for the subsequent 'unfolding'. But SSD as a referent to all >> important (and less important) stages can easily become overly abstract. >> >> For the fundamental developmental situations, we are looking for >> conditions under which the nature of cognition changes, so milder >> situations like career progression are not in the same category. >> >> The way I think of this is that the child's old form of social support is >> no longer suitable. Not only is the support deemed to be too restrictive, >> but the semantic interpretation that the child places upon the old form of >> support is experienced as being 'wrong'. When the two year old says "no", >> I suspect that s/he may sometimes be saying "no, you've got it wrong". The >> child certainly seems to communicate similarly complex expressions such as >> pushing an object out of sight, pulling it back and then smiling at an >> adult as if to say, "Isn't that amazing, it was still there!" or, perhaps >> "Look, I made it reappear!" >> >> An adult version of that semantic difficulty is perhaps evident in the >> shift of meanings between formal and genetic/dialectical materialist >> logic. The terms abstract, generalisation, ideal, material, universal, >> concrete, unit all have different meanings along with many other >> differences, hence the old way of knowing may interfere with the natural >> progression. >> >> Huw >> >> >> >> >> >> On 21 March 2015 at 00:47, Andy Blunden > ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> I think Huw put the alternative interpretation of Leontyev's words >> very well. There *is* a difference there, but it is not as >> profound as at first sight. >> I don't agree with the cast David has put on my view though. It is >> precisely in understanding the crises as being transitions between >> SSDs which is where SSD is invaluable as the unit. >> In general of course it is true, that a unit shed light on a >> specific problem, and is not the key to everything. >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> David Kellogg wrote: >> >> ... he set out the necessity of different units of analysis >> for different problems (which is why I agree with Andy that >> the SSD is an >> adequate unit of analysis for SOME problems but not for the >> crisis). He >> says that even in kids like Huw's, who experience no apparent >> crisis, we >> can observe that particular periods appear to stand out >> against more stable >> periods in three respects: >> >> >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Sat Mar 21 04:36:46 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 22:36:46 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: SSD and Perezhivanie In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CDEBA@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CDE5B@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CDE8B@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <550D392C.6000609@mira.net> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CDEBA@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <550D57CE.4020607@mira.net> Perezhivanie is a Russian word, Rod, which has no English equivalent, but it is not a total mystery. Briefly, I'd say that a perezhivanie is an experience together with the process of surviving it, overcoming or processing it. Here's an eclectic collection of quotes etc. http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Rod Parker-Rees wrote: > Andy, do we need to think of pereshevanija in terms of units/events or in terms of patterns and tendencies? Could we say that to know a person is to have some idea of how a shared social environment is likely to be refracted by their perezhivenija (how we can expect them to respond to events, people and things)? Or would this be an overextension? > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: 21 March 2015 09:26 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: SSD and Perezhivanie > > Perezhivanija can be positive as well as negative, Rod. > As when you take a big personal risk, and it pays off. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Rod Parker-Rees wrote: > >> I have trouble keeping up with all that burgeons here and I have just seen David's comments on the (in)evitability of crises. Is it possible that Vygotsky had good environmental reasons for focusing on negative shifts in the SSD (he was writing in a particular socio-political environment) and that it might not be sacriligious to suggest that the continuing negotiation of the SSD also includes a lot of positive adjustments. In a similar vein I would prefer to extend (if it is an extension) perezhivanie to cover positive social experiences as well as traumas and crises but I tend to feel as though this will be seen by Vygotsky experts as a naively romantic oversimplification! >> >> I know this has been discussed in the past on this forum but I continue to be fascinated by the question of how scholarly study of what Vygotsky and others REALLY meant can be goaded and prodded by questions about what he might perhaps mean if he happened to be writing now. Is there another kind of SSD between the guardians of the truth of history and the bright young things who are inclined to be more playful with their interpretation of what can be done with ideas? And so there will be crises! >> >> Rod >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rod Parker-Rees >> Sent: 21 March 2015 09:04 >> To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: SSD and Perezhivanie >> >> I find this short explanation of the SSD really helpful, Andy. This makes it more like a form of social affordance so not something which can be sliced into 'units' but more of a relationship BETWEEN a person and the social environment as experienced by that person. What makes it so rich is that the environment can meet itself coming back - but not quite itself, instead a version of itself transformed by the perezhivanie of the person who experiences it in a particular way and responds in a particular way. So in a conversation we learn about our friends by (often not consciously) noticing how our contributions are refracted by their perezhivanie. >> >> Clearly, in ontogeny, a variety of maturational changes (increasing mobility, increasing interest in other people's attention, increasing ability to 'read' social situations and increasing autonomy for example) will change the interactional space between child and caregivers and it is not surprising that caregivers are not always fully able to keep up, leading to 'crises' of varying degrees. How critical a crisis turns out to be is surely as much due to the caregiver's expectations and culture ('You WILL respect my authority!') as to the child's 'inner' state and the space between is negotiated and adjusted from both sides. >> >> All the best, >> >> Rod >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >> Sent: 21 March 2015 04:58 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy >> >> SSD is a term defined by Vygotsky in his study of Child Development in Volume 6 of the Collected Works. >> See https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-age.htm >> The SSD is a unique relationship between the (social) environment and the child, designated by normative cultural terms such as "school child" >> or "infgant" etc. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> >>> Thanks mike! >>> >>> I forgot to ask: Where does SSD derive? Did LSV use this? >>> >>> How does this differentiate from the environment? In other words, is the environment contained inside the social situation or vice versa? Or are they identical (equal)? >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> On Friday, March 20, 2015 10:37 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> SSD=Social situation of development. >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Would someone be so kind as to unpack the acronym "SSD?" >>>> >>>> TQ, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> ________________________________ >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] >> >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. >> >> ________________________________ >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] >> >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. 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If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. > > > From Peg.Griffin@att.net Sat Mar 21 09:35:53 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 12:35:53 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> Message-ID: <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not yet going to school and a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy pencils or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need for the older one. I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not just in my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural institutions impact one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and then there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual. [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this might be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far away from the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! ] Peg -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 11:28 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy Huw, what I think is distinctive about SSD for child development, as opposed to adult personality development, is that there is still a significant biological process of maturation and growth going on which constantly challenges social arrangements. This is not the case for adults. An adult can get a job when they leave school and stay in that job for life, except that the *social* arrangements keep challenging the individual. Also, I don't think all this is best conceived in terms of *cognition* - there are a lot of other psychological processes involved. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Huw Lloyd wrote: > As a unit, 'SSD' should be referring to conditions which are > necessary to go through for the subsequent 'unfolding'. But SSD as a > referent to all important (and less important) stages can easily > become overly abstract. > > For the fundamental developmental situations, we are looking for > conditions under which the nature of cognition changes, so milder > situations like career progression are not in the same category. > > The way I think of this is that the child's old form of social support > is no longer suitable. Not only is the support deemed to be too > restrictive, but the semantic interpretation that the child places > upon the old form of support is experienced as being 'wrong'. When > the two year old says "no", I suspect that s/he may sometimes be > saying "no, you've got it wrong". The child certainly seems to > communicate similarly complex expressions such as pushing an object > out of sight, pulling it back and then smiling at an adult as if to > say, "Isn't that amazing, it was still there!" or, perhaps "Look, I > made it reappear!" > > An adult version of that semantic difficulty is perhaps evident in the > shift of meanings between formal and genetic/dialectical materialist > logic. The terms abstract, generalisation, ideal, material, > universal, concrete, unit all have different meanings along with many > other differences, hence the old way of knowing may interfere with the > natural progression. > > Huw > > > > > > On 21 March 2015 at 00:47, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > I think Huw put the alternative interpretation of Leontyev's words > very well. There *is* a difference there, but it is not as > profound as at first sight. > I don't agree with the cast David has put on my view though. It is > precisely in understanding the crises as being transitions between > SSDs which is where SSD is invaluable as the unit. > In general of course it is true, that a unit shed light on a > specific problem, and is not the key to everything. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > David Kellogg wrote: > > ... he set out the necessity of different units of analysis > for different problems (which is why I agree with Andy that > the SSD is an > adequate unit of analysis for SOME problems but not for the > crisis). He > says that even in kids like Huw's, who experience no apparent > crisis, we > can observe that particular periods appear to stand out > against more stable > periods in three respects: > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Sat Mar 21 17:38:55 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 11:38:55 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> Message-ID: <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> p. 365, "The Child's Psyche": "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not to buy it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests a schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks for a toy to be bought. These requests have a different sense not only for its parents but above all for the child itself." I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is little to do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the normative series of roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as well as the modern life of a child. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Peg Griffin wrote: > Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not yet going to school and a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy pencils or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need for the older one. > I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not just in my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural institutions impact one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and then there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual. > [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this might be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far away from the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! ] > Peg > > > From Peg.Griffin@att.net Sat Mar 21 18:15:41 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 21:15:41 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> Message-ID: <000001d0643d$b7d1d870$27758950$@att.net> Oh, thanks so much, Andy! I was thinking somewhat along the same lines. I'm always nudged to suspect I am thinking more clearly when the focus is beyond the individual corpora... PG -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 8:39 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy p. 365, "The Child's Psyche": "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not to buy it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests a schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks for a toy to be bought. These requests have a different sense not only for its parents but above all for the child itself." I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is little to do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the normative series of roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as well as the modern life of a child. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Peg Griffin wrote: > Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not yet going to school and a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy pencils or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need for the older one. > I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not just in my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural institutions impact one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and then there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual. > [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this > might be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far > away from the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize > light! ] Peg > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Mar 21 18:21:35 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 01:21:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> Message-ID: I think I agree with that (that SSD has little to do with biological maturation). This is actually, to my reading, a subtle yet very appropriate passage that Peg has unearthed or recollected. These things that the child really does need, wherein the child conveys "I cannot get on without this", is a reference to materials that enable the structuring of forms that the child does not yet have, i.e. they are necessary (but perhaps insufficient on their own) means to their development of neo-formations, or, indeed, transformations in their way of knowing. The sense I get is that this imperative is not derived from a need to comply with bureaucratic processes (e.g. black shoes must be worn at school), but with a recognition that something objective and fundamental cannot be achieved without it. Huw On 22 March 2015 at 00:38, Andy Blunden wrote: > p. 365, "The Child's Psyche": > > "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not to buy > it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests a > schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks for a toy > to be bought. These requests have a different sense not only for its > parents but above all for the child itself." > > I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is little to > do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the normative series of > roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as well as the modern life of a > child. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Peg Griffin wrote: > >> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I >> mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's >> "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not yet going to school and >> a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy pencils >> or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need for the >> older one. I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not just in >> my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural institutions impact >> one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and then >> there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual. >> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this might >> be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far away from >> the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! ] Peg >> >> >> > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Mar 21 18:39:32 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 01:39:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> Message-ID: First, a little clarification. I am considering all of the stages and crises identified by LSV and others (e.g. El'konin) to be principally social-psychological (and not biological). Second, to consider SSD without the drive for development seems, to me, to reduce it to a non-unity. SSD then becomes a form of social comfort-seeking calculus that does not take into account issues of fundamental importance to the agent. For example, if the agent is a mature adult, then their concern for ethics may take up a paramount issue, to the extent that their ethical evaluation dominates their way of being (in this sense, ethics may be considered an adult formation). Under such situations, the SSD must conform to such a dominant development. Hence SSD either takes this into account or it becomes a peripheral non-unitary consideration which does not capture the development of the agent. Huw On 22 March 2015 at 00:38, Andy Blunden wrote: > p. 365, "The Child's Psyche": > > "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not to buy > it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests a > schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks for a toy > to be bought. These requests have a different sense not only for its > parents but above all for the child itself." > > I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is little to > do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the normative series of > roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as well as the modern life of a > child. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Peg Griffin wrote: > >> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I >> mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's >> "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not yet going to school and >> a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy pencils >> or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need for the >> older one. I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not just in >> my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural institutions impact >> one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and then >> there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual. >> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this might >> be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far away from >> the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! ] Peg >> >> >> > > > From helen.harper@bigpond.com Sat Mar 21 19:02:40 2015 From: helen.harper@bigpond.com (Helen Harper) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 11:32:40 +0930 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> Message-ID: <19064129-696A-4A2C-9E76-43AD29E8C38D@bigpond.com> I?m intrigued by Michael Tomasello?s discussion here about children taking on normative behaviours, and the idea that they come to represent a group or a culture through those behaviours. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtf2btmfPgw I wonder if this is consistent with your view Andy? Helen > On 22 Mar 2015, at 10:08 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > > p. 365, "The Child's Psyche": > > "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not to buy it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests a schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks for a toy to be bought. These requests have a different sense not only for its parents but above all for the child itself." > > I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is little to do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the normative series of roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as well as the modern life of a child. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Peg Griffin wrote: >> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not yet going to school and a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy pencils or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need for the older one. I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not just in my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural institutions impact one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and then there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual. >> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this might be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far away from the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! ] Peg >> >> > > From helen.harper@bigpond.com Sat Mar 21 19:04:29 2015 From: helen.harper@bigpond.com (Helen Harper) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 11:34:29 +0930 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: New Book on Brain-Friendly Assessments is Here! In-Reply-To: References: <258917601.-1354547588.1426503217451.JavaMail.root@sjmas01.marketo.org> <5506C7EC.30204@mira.net> Message-ID: <140B6C15-0458-4E15-A614-D8CC45BFEB56@bigpond.com> Thanks very much Greg. This looks like a very interesting book regards, Helen > On 18 Mar 2015, at 3:58 am, Greg Thompson wrote: > > Helen, > This doesn't quite speak to your question of educational neuroscience, but > I find this to be an interesting take on brains and contexts: > > http://www.amazon.com/The-Encultured-Brain-Introduction-Neuroanthropology/dp/0262017784 > > The authors of The Encultured Brain, Greg Downey and Daniel Lende, were > both trained as anthropologists and thus, compared to your average > neuroscientist, they have a little better grasp of the importance of > context. At the same time, as compared with your average anthropologist, > they appreciate the importance of understanding the biological brain. > > -greg > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 5:31 AM, Helen Harper > wrote: > >> Thank you very much for this article Mike. You bring such clarity to this >> historical perspective. I laughed when I clicked on the youtube link! >> (thinking it was going to be some neuroscience thing). >> >> Your discussion of Bereiter and Engelmann is especially useful and timely >> for me to ponder, given that the Australian government is in the process of >> spending millions getting remote schools to do Direct Instruction (or some >> form of it anyway). >> >> i was also wondering, still on the 'brain-friendly' topic, if anyone has >> any writing specifically about 'brain-based learning' - and whether any of >> those 'brain-based' people ever have anything to say about learning in a >> social context? I want to know, does 'brain-based learning' represent an >> ideology in which learning is constructed as something that takes place >> entirely inside the brain of the individual, or have I missed something? >> >> Helen >> >> >>> On 17 Mar 2015, at 6:15 am, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Some relevant material here, Helen. Peter probably has a bunch more. >>> >>> I am afraid that back to the future is the way things are going. Very >> nice >>> when you like that past as your future, not so nice when you don't...... >>> makes it seems like you want to ask, a la Pete Seeger and "where have all >>> the flowers gone," "when will they ever learn." >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y2SIIeqy34 >>> >>> mike >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 5:26 AM, Helen Harper >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Speaking of which, can anyone point me to any recent sociocultural or >>>> cultural-historical-informed critiques of the current culture-free >> trends >>>> in educational neuroscience? I would be much obliged. >>>> >>>> Helen >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 16 Mar 2015, at 9:39 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I think I'll send my brain along to one of these sessions! >>>>> Andy >>>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Peter Smagorinsky wrote: >>>>>> The latest in culture-free educational solutions?..p >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Learning Sciences International [mailto: >>>> lsiinfo@learningsciences.com] >>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 6:54 AM >>>>>> To: Peter Smagorinsky >>>>>> Subject: New Book on Brain-Friendly Assessments is Here! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> FORWARD THIS EMAIL< >>>> http://email.learningsciences.com/v/CAi00q0ab0ZT0VBV3T07J08> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> [Learning Sciences International] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> NOW AVAILABLE! >>>>>> >>>>>> Effective assessments based on neuroscience. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Looking to design brain-friendly assessments that deepen students? >>>> understanding? 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If you no >>>> longer wish to receive these emails you may unsubscribe< >>>> http://email.learningsciences.com/u/umV000VA8b0B0C03ZiTTJ70> at any >> time. >>>>>> 1400 Centrepark Boulevard, Suite 1000 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object >>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >> >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Mar 21 21:57:05 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 04:57:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Crisis in Ontogeny - Redux, Revolve, Resolves Message-ID: <1427000225242.61596@unm.edu> Hi XMCars, I thought I should start a new thread, not to get pinched in the perezhivanie of open or closed doors. So I thought instead I'd take the revolving door to the atrium lobby, where there is a piano player on a baby grand and some nice ferns. I'd like to raise the question whether there are reasonable parallels to crises in adults with those of children with regard to maturational changes, and what anyone has to say about this. Of course this is directly personal, kind of an inversion of Huw's situation with his child. Being an adult child caring for an aging parent, I'm interested to know if there are parallels with regard to crisis and development and if so, what those might be. In watching the thread evolve I realized that we focus upon the upward biological arc in a social setting, but not so much on the downward biological arc in a social setting. I don't mean to create a cloudy day, but I wonder if this is partially because the development of children's minds (in social settings) is always so hopeful and encouraging, even just to watch, while aging doesn't bring those same responses? What are the kinds of narratives and stances concerning the development of the aged? Is Richard Wright correct to say that we only value the biological potential of individuals based upon how likely they are to procreate? (In The Moral Animal, he said something along those lines, that we are more distraught over the death of children than we are the death of parents, and his hypothesis for this had to do with a life shortened before generating offspring, as if this were the only value for a life - as in to marry and have children of one's own, that not doing so is a greater loss than a long life lived and ended long after having offspring). Why should we have these biases? Or is the lack of study concerning the crises during the downward arc have more to do with our own inabilities to deal with mortality, just in general? Or is there something from both these narratives that weigh into the mix? (Are there Vygotskian studies of the later years? If so, what are the known names?) We can't say that these biological processes go in reverse, for example. I don't think it would be a happy or useful indicator to use dentition as a marker, now would it? And as a person slows down, there is a need to negotiate independence and dignity with pragmatics and health realities. All of this pertains to social situations of development. So perhaps I am not understanding the crisis and what that means. I wondered if there was some potential for discussion by comparison to growth of children and to that of aging adults and whether there might be some fruitful discoveries to uncover on the list? I found this in the Problem of Age here: "From a purely external aspect. these periods are characterized by traits which are the opposite of the firm or stable age levels. During these periods, abrupt and major shifts and displacements, changes, and discontinuities in the child?s personality are concentrated in a relatively short time (several months, a year or at most, two). In a very short time, the child changes completely in the basic traits of his personality. Development takes on a stormy, impetuous, and sometimes catastrophic character that resembles a revolutionary course of events in both rate of the changes that are occurring and in the sense of the alterations that are made. These are turning points in the child?s development that sometimes take the form of a severe crisis." ? "The second feature of critical age levels served as a departure point for empirical study. The fact is that a significant proportion of children who experience critical periods of development are difficult children. These children seem to drop out of the system of pedagogical influence that until very recently provided a normal course for their training. and education. In children of school age during critical periods, there is a drop in rate of success, a slacking of interest in school work, and a general decline in capacity for work. At critical age levels, the child?s development frequently is accompanied by more or less sharp conflicts with those around him. The child?s internal life is sometimes connected with painful and excruciating experiences and with internal conflicts." ? "The third feature, perhaps most important but least clear from the theoretical aspect and for this reason, one that impedes a correct understanding of the nature of child development during these periods, is the negative character of development. Everyone who wrote about these unique periods noted in the first place that development here is different from that in the stable ages and does destructive rather than constructive work. Progressive development of the child?s personality, the continuous construction of the new, which had been so prominent in all stable ages, is seemingly attenuated or temporarily suspended. Processes of dying off and closure, the disintegration and breakdown of what had been formed at preceding stages and distinguished the child of a given age move to the forefront. During the critical periods, the child does not so much acquire as he loses some of what he had acquired earlier. The onset of these age levels is not marked by the appearance of new interests of the child, of new aspirations, new types of activity, new forms of internal life. The child entering a period of crisis is more apt to be characterized by the opposite traits: he loses interests that only yesterday guided all his activity and took the greater part of his time and attention but now seemingly die off, forms of external relations and internal life developed earlier are neglected. L. N. Tolstoy graphically and precisely called one such critical period of child development the desert of adolescence." and then "As all life is at the same time also a dying (E Engels), so also child development ? one of the complex forms of life ? of necessity includes in itself processes of closure and dying off. The appearance of the new in development necessarily signifies the dying off of the old. The transition to a new age is always marked by the demise of the previous age. The processes of reverse development, the dying off of the old, are concentrated mainly during the critical ages. But it would be a great mistake to assume that this is the whole significance of the critical ages. Development never ends its creative work, and during critical periods too, we observe constructive processes of development. Moreover, processes of involution [regression] so clearly expressed during these periods, themselves are subordinate to Processes of positive structuring of the personality, depend on them directly, and with them make up an indivisible whole. The disruptive work is done in these periods to the extent that is required by the need to develop properties and traits of the personality. Practical study shows that the negative content of development at turning points is only the reverse or shadow side of positive changes of the personality that make up the principal and basic sense of any critical age." ??There is more I could pull out. Perhaps it is too facile to indicate these paragraphs, however with the intention to consider how these might compare to aging, if there is no line to draw between childhood and late adulthood, then is it worthwhile to compare how they are the same and how they are different? I realize we can't compare patterns child development to the beginning of maturity, when LSV says: "It is difficult to imagine that human development at the beginning of maturity (age eighteen to twenty-five) could be subject to patterns of child development." ? But does this preclude a comparison of child development and late adulthood? Additionally, how might we utilize a version (or interpretation) of the ZPD and apply it to late adulthood? Is this assessing a reversal of development? i.e., what can no longer be done on one's own? And what might be the ethical questions that arise from that? Will you wonder with me what threads of thought might be there waiting to be spun? The door revolves?but never shuts. Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Mar 21 22:11:49 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 05:11:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <550CFA4F.6010805@mira.net> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <1426908247624.62086@unm.edu>, <1426913386787.99614@unm.edu>,<550CFA4F.6010805@mira.net> Message-ID: <1427001109009.23093@unm.edu> BTW, ends up I have read The Problem of Age, but we never used this acronym "SSD." Acronyms do not always make things clearer, but actually tend to confuse, unless you are part of the group that uses them, of course. In any case thanks for "making" me read text I already read, so I could pursue my own thought sculpture pertaining to aging and development (in terms of late adulthood). Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 10:57 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy SSD is a term defined by Vygotsky in his study of Child Development in Volume 6 of the Collected Works. See https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-age.htm The SSD is a unique relationship between the (social) environment and the child, designated by normative cultural terms such as "school child" or "infgant" etc. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Thanks mike! > > I forgot to ask: Where does SSD derive? Did LSV use this? > > How does this differentiate from the environment? In other words, is the environment contained inside the social situation or vice versa? Or are they identical (equal)? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > On Friday, March 20, 2015 10:37 PM, mike cole wrote: > > SSD=Social situation of development. > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > >> Would someone be so kind as to unpack the acronym "SSD?" >> >> TQ, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Mar 22 05:42:31 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 12:42:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <19064129-696A-4A2C-9E76-43AD29E8C38D@bigpond.com> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> <19064129-696A-4A2C-9E76-43AD29E8C38D@bigpond.com> Message-ID: In my view this normative dimension has to be central to any account of human ontogenesis. I think Tomasello, and collaborators such as Hannes Rakoczy, are on the right track here, but in my view they don't draw some necessary distinctions. Children don't simply deal with, and come to understand, different kinds of norms, any more than they do different kinds of roles. It seems to me that we need to distinguish among the customary use of artifacts, taken for granted social conventions, institutional rules and roles, and the deontological aspect of living in complex systems of institutions. This is the sequence, in my view, in which children develop an understanding of the social world in which they live. Martin On Mar 21, 2015, at 9:02 PM, Helen Harper wrote: > I?m intrigued by Michael Tomasello?s discussion here about children taking on normative behaviours, and the idea that they come to represent a group or a culture through those behaviours. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtf2btmfPgw > > I wonder if this is consistent with your view Andy? > Helen > >> On 22 Mar 2015, at 10:08 am, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> p. 365, "The Child's Psyche": >> >> "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not to buy it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests a schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks for a toy to be bought. These requests have a different sense not only for its parents but above all for the child itself." >> >> I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is little to do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the normative series of roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as well as the modern life of a child. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> Peg Griffin wrote: >>> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not yet going to school and a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy pencils or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need for the older one. I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not just in my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural institutions impact one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and then there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual. >>> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this might be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far away from the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! ] Peg >>> >>> >> >> > From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sun Mar 22 07:30:29 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 14:30:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] just as food for thought Message-ID: <621391072.298397.1427034629307.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> More ?generally, ?in ?his ?writings ?on ?this ?issue, ?Vygotsky ?was ?concerned ?to?establish ?two ?very ?important ?principles. ?The ?first ?was ?that ?the ?intellectual ?devel-? opment ?of ?the ?individual ?cannot ?be ?understood ?without ?taking ?into ?account ?his ?or?her ?interactions ?with ?other ?people ?in ?his ?or ?her ?social ?environment; ?as ?he ?puts ?it,??the ?levels ?of ?generalization ?in ?[the ?thinking ?of] ?a ?child ?correspond ?strictly ?to ?the?levels ?in ?the ?development ?of ?social ?interaction? ?Vygotsky, ?19.56, ?p. ?432; ?quoted?in ?Wertsch, ?1983, ?p. ?26). ?And ?the ?second ?was ?that ?this ?social ?environment ?is?itself ?influenced ?by ?the ?wider ?culture ?which ?varies ?according ?to ?the ?forms ?and?organization ?of ?labor ?activity ?that ?are ?practiced ?and ?the ?material ?and ?semiotic?tools ?that ?are ?employed.? ... In ?one ?form ?or ?another, ?these?tensions ?are ?resolved-at ?least ?partially-in ?the ?dynamics ?of ?social ?action ?and?interaction ?which ?involve ?the ?use ?of ?language ?and ?possibly ?other ?mediating ?tools?as ?well; ?in ?some ?cases, ?the ?resolution ?may ?also ?result ?in ?modification ?of, ?or?addition ?to, ?the ?culture?s ?available ?repertoire ?of ?mediating ?tools. ?Furthermore,?from ?the ?perspective ?of ?the ?individual, ?participation ?in ?such ?collaborative ?action?and ?interaction ?provides ?the ?opportunity ?for ?him ?or ?her ?to ?appropriate ?the ?pro-?cesses ?involved, ?which, ?when ?internalized ?and ?integrated ?with ?their ?existing?resources, ?as ?Vygotsky ?explains, ?transforms ?the ?way ?in ?which ?they ?tackle ?similar?problems ?in ?the ?future. ?However, ?since ?internalization ?always ?involves ?a ?con-?struction ?based ?on ?the ?individual?s ?existing ?resources, ?the ?process ?that ?is ?inter-?nalized ?may ?itself ?be ?transformed, ?leading ?to ?subsequent ?innovatory ?forms ?of?externalization ?in ?contexts ?of ?social ?action ?and ?interaction ?which, ?in ?turn, ?may?introduce ?change ?into ?the ?semiotic ?system.? ... In ?this ?definition, ?Halliday ?draws ?a ?clear ?distinction ?between ?doing ?and ?mean-?ing, ?while ?seeing ?them ?both ?as ?forms ?of ?semiotic ?behavior, ?more ?generally?conceived. ?Maintaining ?this ?distinction, ?therefore, ?it ?seems ?to ?follow ?that, ?al-?though ?one ?can ?talk ?(i.e., ?can ?mean) ?about ?what ?one ?is ?doing, ?did, ?or ?might ?do,?the ?actual ??doing?- ?although ?a ?form ?of ?semiotic ?behavior-is ?not ?itself ??mean-?ing,? ?except ?in ?the ?case ?of ??doing ?in ?language.?? ... That ?is ?that ?this ?formulation ?fails ?to ?recognize ?the ?tool-like ?function ?of?language ?in ?the ?achievement ?of ?the ?goals ?of ?semiotic ?activity ?more ?broadly?conceived. ?In ?Vygotsky?s ?terms, ?meaning ?linguistically ?is ?only ?one-albeit ?the?most ?important-form ?of ?semiotic ?mediation, ?and ?to ?understand ?its ?significance?on ?particular ?occasions, ?one ?must ?look ?at ?the ?goals ?of ?the ?activity ?it ?mediates. ?To?recall ?Leontiev?s ?argument ?(quoted ?above, ?p. ?57), ??The ?tool ?mediates ?activity ?and?thus ?connects ?humans ?not ?only ?with ?the ?world ?of ?objects ?but ?also ?with ?other?people.? ?In ?so&cultural ?theory, ?as ?this ?quotation ?makes ?clear, ?language ?is ?cer-?tainly ?a ?powerful ?and ?versatile ?tool. ?However, ?it ?is ?the ?activity ?that ?it ?mediates?that ?has ?conceptual ?and ?historical ?primacy; ?for ?it ?is ?through ?action ?and ?activities?that ?we ?are ?related ?both ?to ?each ?other ?and ?to ?the ?external ?world ?(Minick, ?1987).? Best Haydi From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Mar 22 08:54:56 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 08:54:56 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> Message-ID: I find it a little odd to think that SSD has little to do with biological maturation. So few 6 month olds get married these days. However, the "structuring of forms the child does not yet 'have' " is certainly central to the sociocultural organization of human development. Among other things, mismatches in timing between adult normative expectations and child behaviors associated with, say, the maturation of bowel control or the ability to sit quietly at a desk for several hours at a time might just give rise to the kinds of phenomena that lSV refers to as crises. I am not sure. What are the criteria for a crisis? Are they generally agreed upon and to be found in practice-guiding texts for, say, professional pediatricians? It seems that the attached may be relevant to several of the remarks in this thread. Uncertain-in-so-cal mike http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2013_01.dir/pdf5I3He7qyRQ.pdf On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > I think I agree with that (that SSD has little to do with biological > maturation). > > This is actually, to my reading, a subtle yet very appropriate passage that > Peg has unearthed or recollected. > > These things that the child really does need, wherein the child conveys "I > cannot get on without this", is a reference to materials that enable the > structuring of forms that the child does not yet have, i.e. they are > necessary (but perhaps insufficient on their own) means to their > development of neo-formations, or, indeed, transformations in their way of > knowing. > > The sense I get is that this imperative is not derived from a need to > comply with bureaucratic processes (e.g. black shoes must be worn at > school), but with a recognition that something objective and fundamental > cannot be achieved without it. > > Huw > > > On 22 March 2015 at 00:38, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > p. 365, "The Child's Psyche": > > > > "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not to buy > > it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests a > > schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks for a toy > > to be bought. These requests have a different sense not only for its > > parents but above all for the child itself." > > > > I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is little to > > do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the normative series of > > roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as well as the modern life > of a > > child. > > > > Andy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Peg Griffin wrote: > > > >> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I > >> mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's > >> "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not yet going to school > and > >> a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy > pencils > >> or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need for > the > >> older one. I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not > just in > >> my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural institutions > impact > >> one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and then > >> there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual. > >> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this > might > >> be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far away > from > >> the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! ] Peg > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From Peg.Griffin@att.net Sun Mar 22 09:40:12 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 12:40:12 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> Message-ID: <001b01d064be$deb0b1b0$9c121510$@att.net> Thanks for calling attention to the Bozhovich (2004), Mike. Nice to notice the play of drives and SSDs, in it, especially. When the child is organized in/by an SSD, could we say there is learning going on that might lead to development? But at first it isn't development, just learning? (And/or can we say the child/adolescent starts with "merely understood" but not "really effective" motives?) So the a child might do something because "mommy says so" and when a teacher comes into it her life she might add or switch to "teacher says so" and add or switch what's being done, too. Sort of disappointing (maybe even embarrassing perhaps to the teacher) but the child is organized by and acting "as if" they are participants in/co-constructors of the school SSD. So there's a ground that the figure might develop in, a petri dish type of culture for the child's future... I like to think of the morphology of the word "organ-ize" -- the child is a different organ when they get to develop so that the motive of/in the SSD is really effective. I'm hoping Martin Packer will link it to his points in his post about Tomasello... Peg PS Maybe it's my old age but I get a kick out of reading a highlighted PDF -- get the feeling of a sort of illicit reading over someone's shoulder! It's in real contrast to the annoyance I used to get from paper copies with other folks' highlighting or underlining. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 11:55 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy I find it a little odd to think that SSD has little to do with biological maturation. So few 6 month olds get married these days. However, the "structuring of forms the child does not yet 'have' " is certainly central to the sociocultural organization of human development. Among other things, mismatches in timing between adult normative expectations and child behaviors associated with, say, the maturation of bowel control or the ability to sit quietly at a desk for several hours at a time might just give rise to the kinds of phenomena that lSV refers to as crises. I am not sure. What are the criteria for a crisis? Are they generally agreed upon and to be found in practice-guiding texts for, say, professional pediatricians? It seems that the attached may be relevant to several of the remarks in this thread. Uncertain-in-so-cal mike http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2013_01.dir/pdf5I3He7qyRQ.pdf On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > I think I agree with that (that SSD has little to do with biological > maturation). > > This is actually, to my reading, a subtle yet very appropriate passage > that Peg has unearthed or recollected. > > These things that the child really does need, wherein the child > conveys "I cannot get on without this", is a reference to materials > that enable the structuring of forms that the child does not yet have, > i.e. they are necessary (but perhaps insufficient on their own) means > to their development of neo-formations, or, indeed, transformations in > their way of knowing. > > The sense I get is that this imperative is not derived from a need to > comply with bureaucratic processes (e.g. black shoes must be worn at > school), but with a recognition that something objective and > fundamental cannot be achieved without it. > > Huw > > > On 22 March 2015 at 00:38, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > p. 365, "The Child's Psyche": > > > > "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not to > > buy it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests > > a schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks > > for a toy to be bought. These requests have a different sense not > > only for its parents but above all for the child itself." > > > > I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is > > little to do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the > > normative series of roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as > > well as the modern life > of a > > child. > > > > Andy > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Peg Griffin wrote: > > > >> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I > >> mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's > >> "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not yet going to > >> school > and > >> a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy > pencils > >> or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need > >> for > the > >> older one. I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not > just in > >> my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural > >> institutions > impact > >> one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and > >> then there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual. > >> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this > might > >> be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far > >> away > from > >> the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! ] > >> Peg > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Mar 22 09:55:06 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:55:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> , Message-ID: <1427043305927.53387@unm.edu> Bravo, mike, One of the odd things I'm finding about this thread is that we can find examples where the social has nothing to do with biology and vice versa, and then we have scenarios in which the biology forms the social and the social forms the biology. It feels kind of chicken-eggy. In light of this, each person on the thread could take one of these and argue one's corner, much like the blind men and the elephant. As you, I was also trying to consider the definition of a crisis, but with a different biology of late adulthood. Can compare-and-contrasting with childhood offer any insights? I will read the Bozovicb article which you so gently suggest we look at. Which focuses upon adolescents where there is a great number of crises, being on the edge of childhood and of adulthood at the same time. Is it that human crisis as we are discussing it here, has the same criteria no matter the age? or are there different types of crises? In other words is there a crisis prototype to we can determine at any age? Or are there some crises generated by social dynamics and others by biology, which then instead of being chicken-eggy are M?bius-strippy? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 9:54 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy I find it a little odd to think that SSD has little to do with biological maturation. So few 6 month olds get married these days. However, the "structuring of forms the child does not yet 'have' " is certainly central to the sociocultural organization of human development. Among other things, mismatches in timing between adult normative expectations and child behaviors associated with, say, the maturation of bowel control or the ability to sit quietly at a desk for several hours at a time might just give rise to the kinds of phenomena that lSV refers to as crises. I am not sure. What are the criteria for a crisis? Are they generally agreed upon and to be found in practice-guiding texts for, say, professional pediatricians? It seems that the attached may be relevant to several of the remarks in this thread. Uncertain-in-so-cal mike http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2013_01.dir/pdf5I3He7qyRQ.pdf On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > I think I agree with that (that SSD has little to do with biological > maturation). > > This is actually, to my reading, a subtle yet very appropriate passage that > Peg has unearthed or recollected. > > These things that the child really does need, wherein the child conveys "I > cannot get on without this", is a reference to materials that enable the > structuring of forms that the child does not yet have, i.e. they are > necessary (but perhaps insufficient on their own) means to their > development of neo-formations, or, indeed, transformations in their way of > knowing. > > The sense I get is that this imperative is not derived from a need to > comply with bureaucratic processes (e.g. black shoes must be worn at > school), but with a recognition that something objective and fundamental > cannot be achieved without it. > > Huw > > > On 22 March 2015 at 00:38, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > p. 365, "The Child's Psyche": > > > > "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not to buy > > it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests a > > schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks for a toy > > to be bought. These requests have a different sense not only for its > > parents but above all for the child itself." > > > > I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is little to > > do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the normative series of > > roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as well as the modern life > of a > > child. > > > > Andy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Peg Griffin wrote: > > > >> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I > >> mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's > >> "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not yet going to school > and > >> a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy > pencils > >> or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need for > the > >> older one. I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not > just in > >> my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural institutions > impact > >> one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and then > >> there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual. > >> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this > might > >> be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far away > from > >> the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! ] Peg > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Mar 22 10:54:48 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:54:48 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <001b01d064be$deb0b1b0$9c121510$@att.net> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> <001b01d064be$deb0b1b0$9c121510$@att.net> Message-ID: Well, Peg, I would say that children of different ages/stages have different understandings of the rights and responsibilities that operate in their social world. The personal relationships within the family differ from the impersonal roles of the school. One key aspect of development is the series of transitions in which a child grasps with deepening sophistication this normative dimension. Part of this will be the instructions, intentions, and desires of other people, but this is only part of the story, imho. Martin On Mar 22, 2015, at 11:40 AM, Peg Griffin wrote: > Thanks for calling attention to the Bozhovich (2004), Mike. Nice to notice the play of drives and SSDs, in it, especially. > When the child is organized in/by an SSD, could we say there is learning going on that might lead to development? But at first it isn't development, just learning? (And/or can we say the child/adolescent starts with "merely understood" but not "really effective" motives?) So the a child might do something because "mommy says so" and when a teacher comes into it her life she might add or switch to "teacher says so" and add or switch what's being done, too. Sort of disappointing (maybe even embarrassing perhaps to the teacher) but the child is organized by and acting "as if" they are participants in/co-constructors of the school SSD. So there's a ground that the figure might develop in, a petri dish type of culture for the child's future... > I like to think of the morphology of the word "organ-ize" -- the child is a different organ when they get to develop so that the motive of/in the SSD is really effective. > > I'm hoping Martin Packer will link it to his points in his post about Tomasello... > > Peg > > PS Maybe it's my old age but I get a kick out of reading a highlighted PDF -- get the feeling of a sort of illicit reading over someone's shoulder! It's in real contrast to the annoyance I used to get from paper copies with other folks' highlighting or underlining. > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Mar 22 11:02:10 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 11:02:10 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: just as food for thought In-Reply-To: <621391072.298397.1427034629307.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <621391072.298397.1427034629307.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Haydi and Dear Colleagues at large in XMCA. PLEASE USE SUBJECT LINES THAT MARK THE SPECIFIC TOPIC WHEN IT IS APPROPRIATE. Haydi -- excuse me for using your subject line as an example. But it comes at the right time. We ALL get caught up when reading XMCA message and they evoke many next thoughts, sometimes on other or related topics. Your message beings referring to "this issue", but your subject line, the subject line of this reply, does not orient me to what "this issue" is. Perhaps I can invoke a general social understanding that old people are slow and have difficulty multitasking to get such a norm adopted in the community? mike On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 7:30 AM, Haydi Zulfei wrote: > > > More generally, in his writings on this issue, Vygotsky was > concerned to establish two very important principles. The first > was that the intellectual devel- > opment of the individual cannot be understood without taking into > account his or her interactions with other people in his or her > social environment; as he puts it, ?the levels of generalization > in [the thinking of] a child correspond strictly to the levels > in the development of social interaction? Vygotsky, 19.56, p. > 432; quoted in Wertsch, 1983, p. 26). And the second was that > this social environment is itself influenced by the wider culture > which varies according to the forms and organization of labor > activity that are practiced and the material and semiotic tools > that are employed. > > ... > > > In one form or another, these tensions are resolved-at least > partially-in the dynamics of social action and interaction which > involve the use of language and possibly other mediating tools as > well; in some cases, the resolution may also result in > modification of, or addition to, the culture?s available repertoire > of mediating tools. Furthermore, from the perspective of the > individual, participation in such collaborative action and > interaction provides the opportunity for him or her to > appropriate the pro- cesses involved, which, when internalized and > integrated with their existing resources, as Vygotsky explains, > transforms the way in which they tackle similar problems in the > future. However, since internalization always involves a > con- struction based on the individual?s existing resources, the > process that is inter- nalized may itself be transformed, leading > to subsequent innovatory forms of externalization in contexts of > social action and interaction which, in turn, may introduce change > into the semiotic system. > > ... > > > In this definition, Halliday draws a clear distinction between > doing and mean- ing, while seeing them both as forms of semiotic > behavior, more generally conceived. Maintaining this distinction, > therefore, it seems to follow that, al- though one can talk > (i.e., can mean) about what one is doing, did, or might do, the > actual ?doing?- although a form of semiotic behavior-is not > itself ?mean- ing,? except in the case of ?doing in language.? > > ... > > > That is that this formulation fails to recognize the tool-like > function of language in the achievement of the goals of semiotic > activity more broadly conceived. In Vygotsky?s terms, meaning > linguistically is only one-albeit the most important-form of > semiotic mediation, and to understand its significance on > particular occasions, one must look at the goals of the activity > it mediates. To recall Leontiev?s argument (quoted above, p. 57), > ?The tool mediates activity and thus connects humans not only > with the world of objects but also with other people.? In > so&cultural theory, as this quotation makes clear, language is > cer- tainly a powerful and versatile tool. However, it is the > activity that it mediates that has conceptual and historical > primacy; for it is through action and activities that we are > related both to each other and to the external world (Minick, > 1987). > > Best > Haydi > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From Peg.Griffin@att.net Sun Mar 22 11:03:21 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 14:03:21 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> <001b01d064be$deb0b1b0$9c121510$@att.net> Message-ID: <002201d064ca$7c40d760$74c28620$@att.net> Thanks for thinking about that, Martin. What I'm really hoping is that you have time to look over the Bozhovich (2004) that Mike appended and see if/how it hits on the important constructs you mentioned being needed in response to Tomasello and colleagues' work. PG -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John Packer Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 1:55 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy Well, Peg, I would say that children of different ages/stages have different understandings of the rights and responsibilities that operate in their social world. The personal relationships within the family differ from the impersonal roles of the school. One key aspect of development is the series of transitions in which a child grasps with deepening sophistication this normative dimension. Part of this will be the instructions, intentions, and desires of other people, but this is only part of the story, imho. Martin On Mar 22, 2015, at 11:40 AM, Peg Griffin wrote: > Thanks for calling attention to the Bozhovich (2004), Mike. Nice to notice the play of drives and SSDs, in it, especially. > When the child is organized in/by an SSD, could we say there is learning going on that might lead to development? But at first it isn't development, just learning? (And/or can we say the child/adolescent starts with "merely understood" but not "really effective" motives?) So the a child might do something because "mommy says so" and when a teacher comes into it her life she might add or switch to "teacher says so" and add or switch what's being done, too. Sort of disappointing (maybe even embarrassing perhaps to the teacher) but the child is organized by and acting "as if" they are participants in/co-constructors of the school SSD. So there's a ground that the figure might develop in, a petri dish type of culture for the child's future... > I like to think of the morphology of the word "organ-ize" -- the child is a different organ when they get to develop so that the motive of/in the SSD is really effective. > > I'm hoping Martin Packer will link it to his points in his post about Tomasello... > > Peg > > PS Maybe it's my old age but I get a kick out of reading a highlighted PDF -- get the feeling of a sort of illicit reading over someone's shoulder! It's in real contrast to the annoyance I used to get from paper copies with other folks' highlighting or underlining. > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Mar 22 11:11:53 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 11:11:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <001b01d064be$deb0b1b0$9c121510$@att.net> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> <001b01d064be$deb0b1b0$9c121510$@att.net> Message-ID: Hard to get me to disagree with any of that. And yes, the issues are dealt with in a very interesting way in the most recent issue of MCA in Martin's review essay of Tomasello. People should pester martin for the review, perhaps a draft of it posted to the list. I think we all have a tendency to get confused when thinking about such matters because of the non-linearity of culturally mediated thought/action. We talk about/inuit "facing the future" when in fact when can only face the past, except through a process of imaginative prolepsis. I was wondering just this morning whether or not the notion of a "bio-social behavioral shift in a culturally organized context" might serve as a germ cell for understanding the notion of "crisis" in LSV's theory of ontogenetic development. Gotta dig out some text on that way of looking at things. >From notes below i gather that the interpretive process of the active person is in the SSD pari parsu with changes in the institutional arrangement of their lives. Is that right, Peg/Martin? mike On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Peg Griffin wrote: > Thanks for calling attention to the Bozhovich (2004), Mike. Nice to > notice the play of drives and SSDs, in it, especially. > When the child is organized in/by an SSD, could we say there is learning > going on that might lead to development? But at first it isn't > development, just learning? (And/or can we say the child/adolescent starts > with "merely understood" but not "really effective" motives?) So the a > child might do something because "mommy says so" and when a teacher comes > into it her life she might add or switch to "teacher says so" and add or > switch what's being done, too. Sort of disappointing (maybe even > embarrassing perhaps to the teacher) but the child is organized by and > acting "as if" they are participants in/co-constructors of the school SSD. > So there's a ground that the figure might develop in, a petri dish type of > culture for the child's future... > I like to think of the morphology of the word "organ-ize" -- the child is > a different organ when they get to develop so that the motive of/in the SSD > is really effective. > > I'm hoping Martin Packer will link it to his points in his post about > Tomasello... > > Peg > > PS Maybe it's my old age but I get a kick out of reading a highlighted > PDF -- get the feeling of a sort of illicit reading over someone's > shoulder! It's in real contrast to the annoyance I used to get from paper > copies with other folks' highlighting or underlining. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 11:55 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy > > I find it a little odd to think that SSD has little to do with biological > maturation. > So few 6 month olds get married these days. > > However, the "structuring of forms the child does not yet 'have' " is > certainly central to the sociocultural organization of human development. > Among other things, mismatches in timing between adult normative > expectations and child behaviors associated with, say, the maturation of > bowel control or the ability to sit quietly at a desk for several hours at > a time might just give rise to the kinds of phenomena that lSV refers to as > crises. > > I am not sure. What are the criteria for a crisis? Are they generally > agreed upon and to be found in practice-guiding texts for, say, > professional pediatricians? > > It seems that the attached may be relevant to several of the remarks in > this thread. > > Uncertain-in-so-cal > mike > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2013_01.dir/pdf5I3He7qyRQ.pdf > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > I think I agree with that (that SSD has little to do with biological > > maturation). > > > > This is actually, to my reading, a subtle yet very appropriate passage > > that Peg has unearthed or recollected. > > > > These things that the child really does need, wherein the child > > conveys "I cannot get on without this", is a reference to materials > > that enable the structuring of forms that the child does not yet have, > > i.e. they are necessary (but perhaps insufficient on their own) means > > to their development of neo-formations, or, indeed, transformations in > > their way of knowing. > > > > The sense I get is that this imperative is not derived from a need to > > comply with bureaucratic processes (e.g. black shoes must be worn at > > school), but with a recognition that something objective and > > fundamental cannot be achieved without it. > > > > Huw > > > > > > On 22 March 2015 at 00:38, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > > p. 365, "The Child's Psyche": > > > > > > "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not to > > > buy it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests > > > a schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks > > > for a toy to be bought. These requests have a different sense not > > > only for its parents but above all for the child itself." > > > > > > I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is > > > little to do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the > > > normative series of roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as > > > well as the modern life > > of a > > > child. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ---- > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > Peg Griffin wrote: > > > > > >> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I > > >> mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's > > >> "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not yet going to > > >> school > > and > > >> a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy > > pencils > > >> or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need > > >> for > > the > > >> older one. I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not > > just in > > >> my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural > > >> institutions > > impact > > >> one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and > > >> then there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual. > > >> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this > > might > > >> be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far > > >> away > > from > > >> the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! ] > > >> Peg > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Mar 22 11:23:31 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 11:23:31 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <001b01d064be$deb0b1b0$9c121510$@att.net> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> <001b01d064be$deb0b1b0$9c121510$@att.net> Message-ID: Hard to get me to disagree with any of that. And yes, the issues are dealt with in a very interesting way in the most recent issue of MCA in Martin's review essay of Tomasello. People should pester martin for the review, perhaps a draft of it posted to the list. I think we all have a tendency to get confused when thinking about such matters because of the non-linearity of culturally mediated thought/action. We talk about/intuit "facing the future" when in fact when can only face the past, except through a process of imaginative prolepsis. Hard to keep straight, perhaps because it isnt. mike On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Peg Griffin wrote: > Thanks for calling attention to the Bozhovich (2004), Mike. Nice to > notice the play of drives and SSDs, in it, especially. > When the child is organized in/by an SSD, could we say there is learning > going on that might lead to development? But at first it isn't > development, just learning? (And/or can we say the child/adolescent starts > with "merely understood" but not "really effective" motives?) So the a > child might do something because "mommy says so" and when a teacher comes > into it her life she might add or switch to "teacher says so" and add or > switch what's being done, too. Sort of disappointing (maybe even > embarrassing perhaps to the teacher) but the child is organized by and > acting "as if" they are participants in/co-constructors of the school SSD. > So there's a ground that the figure might develop in, a petri dish type of > culture for the child's future... > I like to think of the morphology of the word "organ-ize" -- the child is > a different organ when they get to develop so that the motive of/in the SSD > is really effective. > > I'm hoping Martin Packer will link it to his points in his post about > Tomasello... > > Peg > > PS Maybe it's my old age but I get a kick out of reading a highlighted > PDF -- get the feeling of a sort of illicit reading over someone's > shoulder! It's in real contrast to the annoyance I used to get from paper > copies with other folks' highlighting or underlining. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 11:55 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy > > I find it a little odd to think that SSD has little to do with biological > maturation. > So few 6 month olds get married these days. > > However, the "structuring of forms the child does not yet 'have' " is > certainly central to the sociocultural organization of human development. > Among other things, mismatches in timing between adult normative > expectations and child behaviors associated with, say, the maturation of > bowel control or the ability to sit quietly at a desk for several hours at > a time might just give rise to the kinds of phenomena that lSV refers to as > crises. > > I am not sure. What are the criteria for a crisis? Are they generally > agreed upon and to be found in practice-guiding texts for, say, > professional pediatricians? > > It seems that the attached may be relevant to several of the remarks in > this thread. > > Uncertain-in-so-cal > mike > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2013_01.dir/pdf5I3He7qyRQ.pdf > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > I think I agree with that (that SSD has little to do with biological > > maturation). > > > > This is actually, to my reading, a subtle yet very appropriate passage > > that Peg has unearthed or recollected. > > > > These things that the child really does need, wherein the child > > conveys "I cannot get on without this", is a reference to materials > > that enable the structuring of forms that the child does not yet have, > > i.e. they are necessary (but perhaps insufficient on their own) means > > to their development of neo-formations, or, indeed, transformations in > > their way of knowing. > > > > The sense I get is that this imperative is not derived from a need to > > comply with bureaucratic processes (e.g. black shoes must be worn at > > school), but with a recognition that something objective and > > fundamental cannot be achieved without it. > > > > Huw > > > > > > On 22 March 2015 at 00:38, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > > p. 365, "The Child's Psyche": > > > > > > "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not to > > > buy it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests > > > a schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks > > > for a toy to be bought. These requests have a different sense not > > > only for its parents but above all for the child itself." > > > > > > I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is > > > little to do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the > > > normative series of roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as > > > well as the modern life > > of a > > > child. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ---- > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > Peg Griffin wrote: > > > > > >> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I > > >> mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's > > >> "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not yet going to > > >> school > > and > > >> a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy > > pencils > > >> or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need > > >> for > > the > > >> older one. I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not > > just in > > >> my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural > > >> institutions > > impact > > >> one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and > > >> then there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual. > > >> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this > > might > > >> be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far > > >> away > > from > > >> the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! ] > > >> Peg > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Mar 22 15:56:22 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 07:56:22 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] "Language" vs. "Speech" Message-ID: First of all, I think the main problem with Haydi's "food for thought" is not that it appears, deus ex machina, with a subject line that makes it almost impossible to join to any current or even past thread. I think the main problem is that it's not sourced. I recognize, it, though: it's a set of quotations from Gordon Wells' 1999 work, "Dialogic Inquiry", which was an attempt to synthesize Vygotsky's work with that of Michael Halliday. I was enchanted with this book when it first came out, and I still find passages of it quite remarkable (e.g. Wells' identification of ideation with intra-mental uses of speech, something that I think neither Halliday nor Vygotsky would agree with). But the part of it that Haydi wants us (well, me, anyway) to remark is actually related to an issue that surfaces now and again in many of our discussions (e.g. the extent to which "perizhivanie" is untranslatable, the distinction between "obuchenie" and "learning", etc..) On the face of it, what Wells says is contradictory. If semiotic behavior is by definition a process of meaning, how can material action be a form of semiotic behavior without being a form of meaning? It cannot. But in fact what Halliday did was to distinguish between semiotic behavior and semantic behavior. Semiotic behavior is everywhere--everything we do has to refer to something else: backwards, to a motive, and forwards to an outcome. But semantics is a stratum of language--it's what happens when we select from the material world phenomena and processes that we intend (mean in the intentional sense) to encode as language. I think it goes without almost without saying (no pun intended) that language is not the "tool of tools" but rather the neoformation of neoformations: we see that in Vygotsky's ontogenetic stages, every major neoformation is centrally concerned with language in general, and semantics in particular. In fact, the formation of the personality is largely a matter of selecting from the social situation of development those elements which constitute the child's "I". But then why does Vygotsky say that speech is only a neoformation in early childhood, and that at school age speech becomes a peripheral line of development? I think the answer is that "speech" in Vygotsky is actually much narrower than "language". And this alone tells us how very wrong our predecessors were to translate Vygotsky's magnum opus as "Thought and Language". David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From ablunden@mira.net Sun Mar 22 17:40:18 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 11:40:18 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> Message-ID: <550F60F2.7010108@mira.net> I think that cultural forms of child-rearing and the corresponding expectations placed upon the child have been developed by communities over centuries and part of that process is the collective experience of the relevant practices. Doubtless all sorts of crazy practices have been tried out at different times, but if the children do not respond as expected, the idea is dropped or modified. I think this is the point at which the biological limitations and predispositions of children comes in. But the present-day child is presented with a finished, working system. I seem to recall that Barbara Rogoff has written about this. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > I find it a little odd to think that SSD has little to do with biological > maturation. > So few 6 month olds get married these days. > > However, the "structuring of forms the child does not yet 'have' " is > certainly central > to the sociocultural organization of human development. Among other things, > mismatches > in timing between adult normative expectations and child behaviors > associated with, say, > the maturation of bowel control or the ability to sit quietly at a desk for > several hours at a time > might just give rise to the kinds of phenomena that lSV refers to as > crises. > > I am not sure. What are the criteria for a crisis? Are they generally > agreed upon and to be found > in practice-guiding texts for, say, professional pediatricians? > > It seems that the attached may be relevant to several of the remarks in > this thread. > > Uncertain-in-so-cal > mike > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2013_01.dir/pdf5I3He7qyRQ.pdf > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > >> I think I agree with that (that SSD has little to do with biological >> maturation). >> >> This is actually, to my reading, a subtle yet very appropriate passage that >> Peg has unearthed or recollected. >> >> These things that the child really does need, wherein the child conveys "I >> cannot get on without this", is a reference to materials that enable the >> structuring of forms that the child does not yet have, i.e. they are >> necessary (but perhaps insufficient on their own) means to their >> development of neo-formations, or, indeed, transformations in their way of >> knowing. >> >> The sense I get is that this imperative is not derived from a need to >> comply with bureaucratic processes (e.g. black shoes must be worn at >> school), but with a recognition that something objective and fundamental >> cannot be achieved without it. >> >> Huw >> >> >> On 22 March 2015 at 00:38, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> >>> p. 365, "The Child's Psyche": >>> >>> "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not to buy >>> it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests a >>> schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks for a toy >>> to be bought. These requests have a different sense not only for its >>> parents but above all for the child itself." >>> >>> I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is little to >>> do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the normative series of >>> roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as well as the modern life >>> >> of a >> >>> child. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> Peg Griffin wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I >>>> mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's >>>> "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not yet going to school >>>> >> and >> >>>> a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy >>>> >> pencils >> >>>> or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need for >>>> >> the >> >>>> older one. I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not >>>> >> just in >> >>>> my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural institutions >>>> >> impact >> >>>> one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and then >>>> there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual. >>>> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this >>>> >> might >> >>>> be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far away >>>> >> from >> >>>> the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! ] Peg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Sun Mar 22 18:02:08 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 12:02:08 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <550F60F2.7010108@mira.net> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> <550F60F2.7010108@mira.net> Message-ID: <550F6610.6070304@mira.net> Rogoff attached ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Andy Blunden wrote: > I think that cultural forms of child-rearing and the corresponding > expectations placed upon the child have been developed by communities > over centuries and part of that process is the collective experience > of the relevant practices. Doubtless all sorts of crazy practices have > been tried out at different times, but if the children do not respond > as expected, the idea is dropped or modified. I think this is the > point at which the biological limitations and predispositions of > children comes in. But the present-day child is presented with a > finished, working system. > I seem to recall that Barbara Rogoff has written about this. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: >> I find it a little odd to think that SSD has little to do with >> biological >> maturation. >> So few 6 month olds get married these days. >> >> However, the "structuring of forms the child does not yet 'have' " is >> certainly central >> to the sociocultural organization of human development. Among other >> things, >> mismatches >> in timing between adult normative expectations and child behaviors >> associated with, say, >> the maturation of bowel control or the ability to sit quietly at a >> desk for >> several hours at a time >> might just give rise to the kinds of phenomena that lSV refers to as >> crises. >> >> I am not sure. What are the criteria for a crisis? Are they generally >> agreed upon and to be found >> in practice-guiding texts for, say, professional pediatricians? >> >> It seems that the attached may be relevant to several of the remarks in >> this thread. >> >> Uncertain-in-so-cal >> mike >> >> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2013_01.dir/pdf5I3He7qyRQ.pdf >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >> >>> I think I agree with that (that SSD has little to do with biological >>> maturation). >>> >>> This is actually, to my reading, a subtle yet very appropriate >>> passage that >>> Peg has unearthed or recollected. >>> >>> These things that the child really does need, wherein the child >>> conveys "I >>> cannot get on without this", is a reference to materials that enable >>> the >>> structuring of forms that the child does not yet have, i.e. they are >>> necessary (but perhaps insufficient on their own) means to their >>> development of neo-formations, or, indeed, transformations in their >>> way of >>> knowing. >>> >>> The sense I get is that this imperative is not derived from a need to >>> comply with bureaucratic processes (e.g. black shoes must be worn at >>> school), but with a recognition that something objective and >>> fundamental >>> cannot be achieved without it. >>> >>> Huw >>> >>> >>> On 22 March 2015 at 00:38, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> >>>> p. 365, "The Child's Psyche": >>>> >>>> "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not >>>> to buy >>>> it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests a >>>> schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks for >>>> a toy >>>> to be bought. These requests have a different sense not only for its >>>> parents but above all for the child itself." >>>> >>>> I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is >>>> little to >>>> do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the normative >>>> series of >>>> roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as well as the modern life >>>> >>> of a >>> >>>> child. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Peg Griffin wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I >>>>> mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's >>>>> "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not yet going to >>>>> school >>>>> >>> and >>> >>>>> a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy >>>>> >>> pencils >>> >>>>> or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need for >>>>> >>> the >>> >>>>> older one. I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not >>>>> >>> just in >>> >>>>> my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural institutions >>>>> >>> impact >>> >>>>> one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and >>>>> then >>>>> there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual. >>>>> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this >>>>> >>> might >>> >>>>> be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far away >>>>> >>> from >>> >>>>> the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! ] >>>>> Peg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Rogoff, Cultural Nature of Human Development.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1869471 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150323/c560894e/attachment-0001.pdf From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Mar 22 18:08:39 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:08:39 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and Deborin In-Reply-To: <55093E3D.4050701@mira.net> References: <5506432E.6000109@mira.net> <55093E3D.4050701@mira.net> Message-ID: Anton tells me that this collaboration had a very negative effect on Vygotsky's career, as Deborin was denounced in January 1931, but in my humble opinion, seems to have been invaluable in preparing Vygotsky to write "Thinking and Speech." Andy, why do you think encountering Deborin's work was "invaluable". Was Deborin proposing that "thought" and "language" [thinking and speech] are two distinct realms of development that become intertwined in the emergence of"verbal thought" as a distinct development? Why was Deborin denounced in January 1931. It seems that 1931 is the time when theoretical approaches which focused on "subjectivity" and "meaning" became dangerous ideas for one's academic career. Was it also a time when exploring "gestalt psychology" was challenged? On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 1:58 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > I've ordered David Bakhurst's book, which I hope will tell me even more, > but thanks to Natalia Gajdamschko and via Natalia, Gena Kravtsova, and > Anton Yasnitsky, I am now certain that Vygotsky never met Deborin, but he > did collaborate with two of Deborin's supporters in writing a book on > currents of Psychology in 1930, exactly the time I'm interested in, > Osnovnye techeniia sovremennoi psikhologii, which is to be found at > http://www.koob.ru/vigodsky_v_l/main_currents. Anton tells me that this > collaboration had a very negative effect on Vygotsky's career, as Deborin > was denounced in January 1931, but in my humble opinion, seems to have been > invaluable in preparing Vygotsky to write "Thinking and Speech." > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: > >> I would consult David Bakhurst's early book. >> mike >> >> On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Andy Blunden > ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> Is there anyone who can tell me a bit more about the relationship >> between Vygotsky and Abram Deborin, who was an editor of "Under >> the Banner of Marxism," a fan of Spinoza and I believe the >> translator of the Russian version of Hegel's Shorter Logic. I >> would be particularly interested in the dates of interactions >> between them. >> Andy >> -- ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Sun Mar 22 18:29:20 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 12:29:20 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and Deborin In-Reply-To: References: <5506432E.6000109@mira.net> <55093E3D.4050701@mira.net> Message-ID: <550F6C70.1000304@mira.net> (1) Deborin and his associates were Hegelians. Deborin had just translated Hegel's Logic into Russian. It seems to me that during his collaboration with B A Fingert and M L Shirvindt in 1930, they straightened him out on what a concept was. This is something he could only have learnt from a Hegelian. In writing "Ape Primitive Man and Child" in 1929 he thought a concept was a collection of items sharing some attribute in common, and conversely that a set was a collection of objects united by some theory-dependent relation such as origins. This is the wrong way around, but by the time he wrote some passages of "History of the Development of the Higher Mental Functions" in 1931, he had corrected this mistake. By the time he wrote "Thinking and Speech," concept formation is the central topic, while word meaning is the unit of analysis. This is the same relation as that between capital and commodity-exchange in Marx's /Capital/. So, I think that those things which made Vygotsky stand out from all the others, which we find in "Thinking and Speech," would have been impossible if Vygotsky had stuck with the Logical Positivist view of concepts. (2) Deborin was challenged purely and simply because he was too clever. Too clever for his own good. None of Stalin's Red Professors could fault him. But it was untenable, in the aftermath of the Russian Revolution, that someone other than the Great Helmsman, General Secretary and Hero of the Revolution, Comrade Josef Stalin, should have the last word on Philosophy. He was denounced ostensibly for being concerned with questions of philosophy which were not of interest to Soviet workers. Deborin survived by shutting his mouth forever after (we have nothing by him in English). But any association with him would have been a problem for anyone's career. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Larry Purss wrote: > Anton tells me that this collaboration had a very negative effect on > Vygotsky's career, as Deborin was denounced in January 1931, but in my > humble opinion, seems to have been invaluable in preparing Vygotsky to > write "Thinking and Speech." > > Andy, why do you think encountering Deborin's work was "invaluable". > Was Deborin proposing that "thought" and "language" [thinking and > speech] are two distinct realms of development that become intertwined > in the emergence of"verbal thought" as a distinct development? > > Why was Deborin denounced in January 1931. It seems that 1931 is the > time when theoretical approaches which focused on "subjectivity" and > "meaning" became dangerous ideas for one's academic career. Was it > also a time when exploring "gestalt psychology" was challenged? > > > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 1:58 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > I've ordered David Bakhurst's book, which I hope will tell me even > more, but thanks to Natalia Gajdamschko and via Natalia, Gena > Kravtsova, and Anton Yasnitsky, I am now certain that Vygotsky > never met Deborin, but he did collaborate with two of Deborin's > supporters in writing a book on currents of Psychology in 1930, > exactly the time I'm interested in, Osnovnye techeniia sovremennoi > psikhologii, which is to be found at > http://www.koob.ru/vigodsky_v_l/main_currents. Anton tells me that > this collaboration had a very negative effect on Vygotsky's > career, as Deborin was denounced in January 1931, but in my humble > opinion, seems to have been invaluable in preparing Vygotsky to > write "Thinking and Speech." > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > mike cole wrote: > > I would consult David Bakhurst's early book. > mike > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Andy Blunden > > >> wrote: > > Is there anyone who can tell me a bit more about the > relationship > between Vygotsky and Abram Deborin, who was an editor of > "Under > the Banner of Marxism," a fan of Spinoza and I believe the > translator of the Russian version of Hegel's Shorter Logic. I > would be particularly interested in the dates of interactions > between them. > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science > with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Mar 22 19:36:10 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:36:10 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and Deborin In-Reply-To: <550F6C70.1000304@mira.net> References: <5506432E.6000109@mira.net> <55093E3D.4050701@mira.net> <550F6C70.1000304@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, Thanks for this answer. It is very helpful in observing transitions and your locating in history that only after 1930 could Vygotsky approach thinking and language moving away from the logical positivists to have written with these new concepts. Also, thanks for the Rogoff Chapter 5 which I will read. A fascinating detective story we are uncovering on how ideas and concepts are transformed through encounters. Larry On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 6:29 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > (1) Deborin and his associates were Hegelians. Deborin had just translated > Hegel's Logic into Russian. It seems to me that during his collaboration > with B A Fingert and M L Shirvindt in 1930, they straightened him out on > what a concept was. This is something he could only have learnt from a > Hegelian. In writing "Ape Primitive Man and Child" in 1929 he thought a > concept was a collection of items sharing some attribute in common, and > conversely that a set was a collection of objects united by some > theory-dependent relation such as origins. This is the wrong way around, > but by the time he wrote some passages of "History of the Development of > the Higher Mental Functions" in 1931, he had corrected this mistake. By the > time he wrote "Thinking and Speech," concept formation is the central > topic, while word meaning is the unit of analysis. This is the same > relation as that between capital and commodity-exchange in Marx's > /Capital/. So, I think that those things which made Vygotsky stand out from > all the others, which we find in "Thinking and Speech," would have been > impossible if Vygotsky had stuck with the Logical Positivist view of > concepts. > > (2) Deborin was challenged purely and simply because he was too clever. > Too clever for his own good. None of Stalin's Red Professors could fault > him. But it was untenable, in the aftermath of the Russian Revolution, that > someone other than the Great Helmsman, General Secretary and Hero of the > Revolution, Comrade Josef Stalin, should have the last word on Philosophy. > He was denounced ostensibly for being concerned with questions of > philosophy which were not of interest to Soviet workers. Deborin survived > by shutting his mouth forever after (we have nothing by him in English). > But any association with him would have been a problem for anyone's career. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Larry Purss wrote: > >> Anton tells me that this collaboration had a very negative effect on >> Vygotsky's career, as Deborin was denounced in January 1931, but in my >> humble opinion, seems to have been invaluable in preparing Vygotsky to >> write "Thinking and Speech." >> >> Andy, why do you think encountering Deborin's work was "invaluable". >> Was Deborin proposing that "thought" and "language" [thinking and speech] >> are two distinct realms of development that become intertwined in the >> emergence of"verbal thought" as a distinct development? >> Why was Deborin denounced in January 1931. It seems that 1931 is the time >> when theoretical approaches which focused on "subjectivity" and "meaning" >> became dangerous ideas for one's academic career. Was it also a time when >> exploring "gestalt psychology" was challenged? >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 1:58 AM, Andy Blunden > ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> I've ordered David Bakhurst's book, which I hope will tell me even >> more, but thanks to Natalia Gajdamschko and via Natalia, Gena >> Kravtsova, and Anton Yasnitsky, I am now certain that Vygotsky >> never met Deborin, but he did collaborate with two of Deborin's >> supporters in writing a book on currents of Psychology in 1930, >> exactly the time I'm interested in, Osnovnye techeniia sovremennoi >> psikhologii, which is to be found at >> http://www.koob.ru/vigodsky_v_l/main_currents. Anton tells me that >> this collaboration had a very negative effect on Vygotsky's >> career, as Deborin was denounced in January 1931, but in my humble >> opinion, seems to have been invaluable in preparing Vygotsky to >> write "Thinking and Speech." >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> I would consult David Bakhurst's early book. >> mike >> >> On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Andy Blunden >> >> >> wrote: >> >> Is there anyone who can tell me a bit more about the >> relationship >> between Vygotsky and Abram Deborin, who was an editor of >> "Under >> the Banner of Marxism," a fan of Spinoza and I believe the >> translator of the Russian version of Hegel's Shorter Logic. I >> would be particularly interested in the dates of interactions >> between them. >> Andy >> -- ------------------------------ >> ------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural >> science >> with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Sun Mar 22 19:51:39 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 13:51:39 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and Deborin In-Reply-To: References: <5506432E.6000109@mira.net> <55093E3D.4050701@mira.net> <550F6C70.1000304@mira.net> Message-ID: <550F7FBB.4040500@mira.net> Glad you appreciate the forensic aspect of this Larry. It has long troubled me, where did Vygotsky get his Hegelianism from? I was given a photocopy of Thinking and Speech in 1997, and it has always been T&S which has been the book for me. I was delighted by his dialectical reasoning. But when I looked through his CW it was obvious that he had never read Hegel because all his Hegel references andHegel quotes were taken from well-known passages in Engels, Lenin, and later, Marx. It was a little while ago when, following up on the xmca discussion on word and action, I re-read "Ape, Primitive Man and Child" as well as "History of the Development ..." that I realised that whatever he knew about Hegel he had learnt it in 1930. That really set me going. Fortunately, Anton Yasnitsky had for me what was the decisive piece of evidence, though Anton himself doesn't see it that way. What we see in what Vygotsky wrote in that collaboration is about Kohler's Gestalt ideas of how chimps solve problems and eidetic memory. Nothing about concepts or Hegel there at all. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Larry Purss wrote: > Andy, > Thanks for this answer. > It is very helpful in observing transitions and your locating in > history that only after 1930 could Vygotsky approach thinking and > language moving away from the logical positivists to have written with > these new concepts. Also, thanks for the Rogoff Chapter 5 which I > will read. > A fascinating detective story we are uncovering on how ideas and > concepts are transformed through encounters. > Larry > > On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 6:29 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > (1) Deborin and his associates were Hegelians. Deborin had just > translated Hegel's Logic into Russian. It seems to me that during > his collaboration with B A Fingert and M L Shirvindt in 1930, they > straightened him out on what a concept was. This is something he > could only have learnt from a Hegelian. In writing "Ape Primitive > Man and Child" in 1929 he thought a concept was a collection of > items sharing some attribute in common, and conversely that a set > was a collection of objects united by some theory-dependent > relation such as origins. This is the wrong way around, but by the > time he wrote some passages of "History of the Development of the > Higher Mental Functions" in 1931, he had corrected this mistake. > By the time he wrote "Thinking and Speech," concept formation is > the central topic, while word meaning is the unit of analysis. > This is the same relation as that between capital and > commodity-exchange in Marx's /Capital/. So, I think that those > things which made Vygotsky stand out from all the others, which we > find in "Thinking and Speech," would have been impossible if > Vygotsky had stuck with the Logical Positivist view of concepts. > > (2) Deborin was challenged purely and simply because he was too > clever. Too clever for his own good. None of Stalin's Red > Professors could fault him. But it was untenable, in the aftermath > of the Russian Revolution, that someone other than the Great > Helmsman, General Secretary and Hero of the Revolution, Comrade > Josef Stalin, should have the last word on Philosophy. He was > denounced ostensibly for being concerned with questions of > philosophy which were not of interest to Soviet workers. Deborin > survived by shutting his mouth forever after (we have nothing by > him in English). But any association with him would have been a > problem for anyone's career. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > Larry Purss wrote: > > Anton tells me that this collaboration had a very negative > effect on Vygotsky's career, as Deborin was denounced in > January 1931, but in my humble opinion, seems to have been > invaluable in preparing Vygotsky to write "Thinking and Speech." > > Andy, why do you think encountering Deborin's work was > "invaluable". > Was Deborin proposing that "thought" and "language" [thinking > and speech] are two distinct realms of development that become > intertwined in the emergence of"verbal thought" as a distinct > development? > Why was Deborin denounced in January 1931. It seems that 1931 > is the time when theoretical approaches which focused on > "subjectivity" and "meaning" became dangerous ideas for one's > academic career. Was it also a time when exploring "gestalt > psychology" was challenged? > > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 1:58 AM, Andy Blunden > > >> wrote: > > I've ordered David Bakhurst's book, which I hope will tell > me even > more, but thanks to Natalia Gajdamschko and via Natalia, Gena > Kravtsova, and Anton Yasnitsky, I am now certain that Vygotsky > never met Deborin, but he did collaborate with two of > Deborin's > supporters in writing a book on currents of Psychology in > 1930, > exactly the time I'm interested in, Osnovnye techeniia > sovremennoi > psikhologii, which is to be found at > http://www.koob.ru/vigodsky_v_l/main_currents. Anton tells > me that > this collaboration had a very negative effect on Vygotsky's > career, as Deborin was denounced in January 1931, but in > my humble > opinion, seems to have been invaluable in preparing > Vygotsky to > write "Thinking and Speech." > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > I would consult David Bakhurst's early book. > mike > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Andy Blunden > > > > > >>> wrote: > > Is there anyone who can tell me a bit more about the > relationship > between Vygotsky and Abram Deborin, who was an > editor of > "Under > the Banner of Marxism," a fan of Spinoza and I > believe the > translator of the Russian version of Hegel's > Shorter Logic. I > would be particularly interested in the dates of > interactions > between them. > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as > a natural science > with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > From Peg.Griffin@att.net Sun Mar 22 20:24:09 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 23:24:09 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> <001b01d064be$deb0b1b0$9c121510$@att.net> Message-ID: <002401d06518$d48c0130$7da40390$@att.net> I'm not sure who's who in this part of your note, Mike: " From notes below i gather that the interpretive process of the active person is in the SSD pari parsu with changes in the institutional arrangement of their lives. Is that right, Peg/Martin?" By active person do you mean, for example, the child in Leontiev example shopping example or do you mean the adults who are enacting the interactions (and constituting the SSD)? And I'm not sure about interpretive process. I'm not sure what that kind of process is and what "counts" as one in the wild. I suspect that it might be exactly where the "merely understood" comes in: The child might be able to give a performance of the words about the motive of school but it isn't really effective for self- or other- organization of his behaviors so the other folks in the SSD have back-up really effective motives ready to roll out. Something about expert and novice roles in SSDs might be relevant? I was so happy to be reminded of the wonderful diverse world by Andy's post from Barbara Rogoff's book (Rogoff, B. (2003). The cultural nature of human development. NY: Oxford University Press) . I?m appending here another little snippet about her work that includes a photo of an 11 month old "skillfully using a machete" -- I am thinking hard about that little one's monitoring grandmother and the enculturation routines and backups that her culture has passed down to her for that social situation of development. http://people.ucsc.edu/~brogoff/William%20James%20Award.pdf Peg -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 2:12 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy Hard to get me to disagree with any of that. And yes, the issues are dealt with in a very interesting way in the most recent issue of MCA in Martin's review essay of Tomasello. People should pester martin for the review, perhaps a draft of it posted to the list. I think we all have a tendency to get confused when thinking about such matters because of the non-linearity of culturally mediated thought/action. We talk about/inuit "facing the future" when in fact when can only face the past, except through a process of imaginative prolepsis. I was wondering just this morning whether or not the notion of a "bio-social behavioral shift in a culturally organized context" might serve as a germ cell for understanding the notion of "crisis" in LSV's theory of ontogenetic development. Gotta dig out some text on that way of looking at things. >From notes below i gather that the interpretive process of the active person is in the SSD pari parsu with changes in the institutional arrangement of their lives. Is that right, Peg/Martin? mike On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Peg Griffin wrote: > Thanks for calling attention to the Bozhovich (2004), Mike. Nice to > notice the play of drives and SSDs, in it, especially. > When the child is organized in/by an SSD, could we say there is > learning going on that might lead to development? But at first it > isn't development, just learning? (And/or can we say the > child/adolescent starts with "merely understood" but not "really > effective" motives?) So the a child might do something because "mommy > says so" and when a teacher comes into it her life she might add or > switch to "teacher says so" and add or switch what's being done, too. > Sort of disappointing (maybe even embarrassing perhaps to the teacher) > but the child is organized by and acting "as if" they are participants in/co-constructors of the school SSD. > So there's a ground that the figure might develop in, a petri dish > type of culture for the child's future... > I like to think of the morphology of the word "organ-ize" -- the child > is a different organ when they get to develop so that the motive of/in > the SSD is really effective. > > I'm hoping Martin Packer will link it to his points in his post about > Tomasello... > > Peg > > PS Maybe it's my old age but I get a kick out of reading a > highlighted PDF -- get the feeling of a sort of illicit reading over > someone's shoulder! It's in real contrast to the annoyance I used to > get from paper copies with other folks' highlighting or underlining. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 11:55 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy > > I find it a little odd to think that SSD has little to do with > biological maturation. > So few 6 month olds get married these days. > > However, the "structuring of forms the child does not yet 'have' " is > certainly central to the sociocultural organization of human development. > Among other things, mismatches in timing between adult normative > expectations and child behaviors associated with, say, the maturation > of bowel control or the ability to sit quietly at a desk for several > hours at a time might just give rise to the kinds of phenomena that > lSV refers to as crises. > > I am not sure. What are the criteria for a crisis? Are they generally > agreed upon and to be found in practice-guiding texts for, say, > professional pediatricians? > > It seems that the attached may be relevant to several of the remarks > in this thread. > > Uncertain-in-so-cal > mike > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2013_01.dir/pdf5I3He7qyRQ.pdf > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > I think I agree with that (that SSD has little to do with biological > > maturation). > > > > This is actually, to my reading, a subtle yet very appropriate > > passage that Peg has unearthed or recollected. > > > > These things that the child really does need, wherein the child > > conveys "I cannot get on without this", is a reference to materials > > that enable the structuring of forms that the child does not yet > > have, i.e. they are necessary (but perhaps insufficient on their > > own) means to their development of neo-formations, or, indeed, > > transformations in their way of knowing. > > > > The sense I get is that this imperative is not derived from a need > > to comply with bureaucratic processes (e.g. black shoes must be worn > > at school), but with a recognition that something objective and > > fundamental cannot be achieved without it. > > > > Huw > > > > > > On 22 March 2015 at 00:38, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > > p. 365, "The Child's Psyche": > > > > > > "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not > > > to buy it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore > > > requests a schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how > > > it asks for a toy to be bought. These requests have a different > > > sense not only for its parents but above all for the child itself." > > > > > > I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is > > > little to do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the > > > normative series of roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as > > > well as the modern life > > of a > > > child. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > -- > > > ---- > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > Peg Griffin wrote: > > > > > >> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am > > >> I mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in > > >> Leontiev's "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not > > >> yet going to school > > and > > >> a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to > > >> buy > > pencils > > >> or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need > > >> for > > the > > >> older one. I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not > > just in > > >> my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural > > >> institutions > > impact > > >> one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it > > >> and then there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual. > > >> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where > > >> this > > might > > >> be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far > > >> away > > from > > >> the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! > > >> ] Peg > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Mar 22 21:18:09 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 22:18:09 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> <19064129-696A-4A2C-9E76-43AD29E8C38D@bigpond.com> Message-ID: Martin, you sent us a very dense paragraph and I wanted to try and parse just two sentences of it to see if I'm understanding you. You wrote: "It seems to me that we need to distinguish among the customary use of artifacts, taken for granted social conventions, institutional rules and roles, and the deontological aspect of living in complex systems of institutions. This is the sequence, in my view, in which children develop an understanding of the social world in which they live." So what you are saying here is that the sequence of development that you are proposing is: 1. customary use of artifacts 2. taken for granted social conventions 3. institutional rules and roles 4. deontological aspects of living in complex systems of institutions Is that right? I wonder if you might be willing to make some guesses as to ages of these? Also, as you know, John Lucy has been working on this issue as it relates to language development and I see some interesting points of alignment here. (Benjamin Smith's work on marble playing Aymara boys demonstrates the development of #2 among 6-8 year old boys in Peru). Anyway, I find this fascinating and would love to hear more (is there more about this in your Tomasello review piece?). -greg On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 6:42 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > In my view this normative dimension has to be central to any account of > human ontogenesis. I think Tomasello, and collaborators such as Hannes > Rakoczy, are on the right track here, but in my view they don't draw some > necessary distinctions. Children don't simply deal with, and come to > understand, different kinds of norms, any more than they do different kinds > of roles. It seems to me that we need to distinguish among the customary > use of artifacts, taken for granted social conventions, institutional rules > and roles, and the deontological aspect of living in complex systems of > institutions. This is the sequence, in my view, in which children develop > an understanding of the social world in which they live. > > Martin > > On Mar 21, 2015, at 9:02 PM, Helen Harper > wrote: > > > I?m intrigued by Michael Tomasello?s discussion here about children > taking on normative behaviours, and the idea that they come to represent a > group or a culture through those behaviours. > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtf2btmfPgw < > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtf2btmfPgw> > > > > I wonder if this is consistent with your view Andy? > > Helen > > > >> On 22 Mar 2015, at 10:08 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> > >> p. 365, "The Child's Psyche": > >> > >> "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not to > buy it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests a > schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks for a toy > to be bought. These requests have a different sense not only for its > parents but above all for the child itself." > >> > >> I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is little > to do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the normative series > of roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as well as the modern life > of a child. > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> Peg Griffin wrote: > >>> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I > mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's > "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not yet going to school and > a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy pencils > or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need for the > older one. I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not just in > my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural institutions impact > one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and then > there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual. > >>> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this > might be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far away > from the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! ] Peg > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Mon Mar 23 02:26:14 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:26:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> <19064129-696A-4A2C-9E76-43AD29E8C38D@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CE412@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> But isn't any talk of progression and stages in development necessarily complicated by the fact that the beginner (the infant) is surrounded from the start by people who have (to varying degrees) already developed these understandings and whose behaviour therefore exhibits and represents them? Also by the practical inseparability of the infant from the SSD (infant and caregiver operate together and caregiver manages and controls infant's exposure to the 'big bad world' of laws, rules, obligations and judgements). Knowing WHAT to do comes before knowing WHY it is done that way but different cultures will provide different environments. Which is not to challenge the series of 'but WHY?' questions which would lead a child from customary to use (but WHY?) to social conventions (but WHY?) to rules and roles and then (but WHY?) to deontological considerations. But I would assume that ages of 'transitions' would be culture dependent at family and more 'macro' levels. Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson Sent: 23 March 2015 04:18 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy Martin, you sent us a very dense paragraph and I wanted to try and parse just two sentences of it to see if I'm understanding you. You wrote: "It seems to me that we need to distinguish among the customary use of artifacts, taken for granted social conventions, institutional rules and roles, and the deontological aspect of living in complex systems of institutions. This is the sequence, in my view, in which children develop an understanding of the social world in which they live." So what you are saying here is that the sequence of development that you are proposing is: 1. customary use of artifacts 2. taken for granted social conventions 3. institutional rules and roles 4. deontological aspects of living in complex systems of institutions Is that right? I wonder if you might be willing to make some guesses as to ages of these? Also, as you know, John Lucy has been working on this issue as it relates to language development and I see some interesting points of alignment here. (Benjamin Smith's work on marble playing Aymara boys demonstrates the development of #2 among 6-8 year old boys in Peru). Anyway, I find this fascinating and would love to hear more (is there more about this in your Tomasello review piece?). -greg On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 6:42 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > In my view this normative dimension has to be central to any account > of human ontogenesis. I think Tomasello, and collaborators such as > Hannes Rakoczy, are on the right track here, but in my view they don't > draw some necessary distinctions. Children don't simply deal with, and > come to understand, different kinds of norms, any more than they do > different kinds of roles. It seems to me that we need to distinguish > among the customary use of artifacts, taken for granted social > conventions, institutional rules and roles, and the deontological > aspect of living in complex systems of institutions. This is the > sequence, in my view, in which children develop an understanding of the social world in which they live. > > Martin > > On Mar 21, 2015, at 9:02 PM, Helen Harper > wrote: > > > I?m intrigued by Michael Tomasello?s discussion here about children > taking on normative behaviours, and the idea that they come to > represent a group or a culture through those behaviours. > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtf2btmfPgw < > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtf2btmfPgw> > > > > I wonder if this is consistent with your view Andy? > > Helen > > > >> On 22 Mar 2015, at 10:08 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> > >> p. 365, "The Child's Psyche": > >> > >> "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not > >> to > buy it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests a > schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks for a > toy to be bought. These requests have a different sense not only for > its parents but above all for the child itself." > >> > >> I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is > >> little > to do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the normative > series of roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as well as the > modern life of a child. > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> ----- > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> Peg Griffin wrote: > >>> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am > >>> I > mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's > "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not yet going to > school and a child going to school have different "calls" on the > family to buy pencils or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need for the > older one. I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not just in > my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural institutions > impact one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it > and then there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual. > >>> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where > >>> this > might be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far > away from the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize > light! ] Peg > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Mon Mar 23 02:48:30 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:48:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <550F60F2.7010108@mira.net> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> <550F60F2.7010108@mira.net> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CE458@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> The system may work (more or less and more for some than others) but I don't see how it could be described as 'finished', Andy. There is a continuing, lively competition among groups of parents to identify 'better', 'kinder' or just 'faster' ways of supporting their children's development and a thriving market in books, classes, equipment etc. to 'help' parents to do the right thing for their children. There is a lot of exploitation and misinformation mixed up in this but the continuing play with different ways of doing things is probably beneficial in the longer term as it leavens cultural practices - preventing them from solidifying into a universally approved and prescribed practice which is good enough for most. Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: 23 March 2015 00:40 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy I think that cultural forms of child-rearing and the corresponding expectations placed upon the child have been developed by communities over centuries and part of that process is the collective experience of the relevant practices. Doubtless all sorts of crazy practices have been tried out at different times, but if the children do not respond as expected, the idea is dropped or modified. I think this is the point at which the biological limitations and predispositions of children comes in. But the present-day child is presented with a finished, working system. I seem to recall that Barbara Rogoff has written about this. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > I find it a little odd to think that SSD has little to do with > biological maturation. > So few 6 month olds get married these days. > > However, the "structuring of forms the child does not yet 'have' " is > certainly central to the sociocultural organization of human > development. Among other things, mismatches in timing between adult > normative expectations and child behaviors associated with, say, the > maturation of bowel control or the ability to sit quietly at a desk > for several hours at a time might just give rise to the kinds of > phenomena that lSV refers to as crises. > > I am not sure. What are the criteria for a crisis? Are they generally > agreed upon and to be found in practice-guiding texts for, say, > professional pediatricians? > > It seems that the attached may be relevant to several of the remarks > in this thread. > > Uncertain-in-so-cal > mike > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2013_01.dir/pdf5I3He7qyRQ.pdf > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > >> I think I agree with that (that SSD has little to do with biological >> maturation). >> >> This is actually, to my reading, a subtle yet very appropriate >> passage that Peg has unearthed or recollected. >> >> These things that the child really does need, wherein the child >> conveys "I cannot get on without this", is a reference to materials >> that enable the structuring of forms that the child does not yet >> have, i.e. they are necessary (but perhaps insufficient on their own) >> means to their development of neo-formations, or, indeed, >> transformations in their way of knowing. >> >> The sense I get is that this imperative is not derived from a need to >> comply with bureaucratic processes (e.g. black shoes must be worn at >> school), but with a recognition that something objective and >> fundamental cannot be achieved without it. >> >> Huw >> >> >> On 22 March 2015 at 00:38, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> >>> p. 365, "The Child's Psyche": >>> >>> "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not to >>> buy it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests >>> a schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks >>> for a toy to be bought. These requests have a different sense not >>> only for its parents but above all for the child itself." >>> >>> I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is >>> little to do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the >>> normative series of roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as >>> well as the modern life >>> >> of a >> >>> child. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> Peg Griffin wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I >>>> mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's >>>> "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not yet going to >>>> school >>>> >> and >> >>>> a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy >>>> >> pencils >> >>>> or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need >>>> for >>>> >> the >> >>>> older one. I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not >>>> >> just in >> >>>> my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural >>>> institutions >>>> >> impact >> >>>> one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and >>>> then there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual. >>>> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this >>>> >> might >> >>>> be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far >>>> away >>>> >> from >> >>>> the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! ] >>>> Peg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> > > > > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From ablunden@mira.net Mon Mar 23 02:55:51 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 20:55:51 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CE458@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <550CBF97.9000707@mira.net> <550CE552.1040506@mira.net> <001c01d063f5$19d08e20$4d71aa60$@att.net> <550E0F1F.5030604@mira.net> <550F60F2.7010108@mira.net> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CE458@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <550FE327.5020300@mira.net> Of course! a ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Rod Parker-Rees wrote: > The system may work (more or less and more for some than others) but I don't see how it could be described as 'finished', Andy. There is a continuing, lively competition among groups of parents to identify 'better', 'kinder' or just 'faster' ways of supporting their children's development and a thriving market in books, classes, equipment etc. to 'help' parents to do the right thing for their children. There is a lot of exploitation and misinformation mixed up in this but the continuing play with different ways of doing things is probably beneficial in the longer term as it leavens cultural practices - preventing them from solidifying into a universally approved and prescribed practice which is good enough for most. > > Rod > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: 23 March 2015 00:40 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy > > I think that cultural forms of child-rearing and the corresponding expectations placed upon the child have been developed by communities over centuries and part of that process is the collective experience of the relevant practices. Doubtless all sorts of crazy practices have been tried out at different times, but if the children do not respond as expected, the idea is dropped or modified. I think this is the point at which the biological limitations and predispositions of children comes in. But the present-day child is presented with a finished, working system. > I seem to recall that Barbara Rogoff has written about this. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Mon Mar 23 03:03:56 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:03:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ON SOCIAL SITUATION OF DEVELOPMENT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1500597816.993068.1427105036856.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> David, Esteemed Planners and organizers with the support of the AT LARGE arranged for us to mark our "trivial off-topics" as "deletable" or "optional" . Hence the subject line . You usually resort to Halliday's notions to justify your claims which are so instructive to me on both support and denial . Hence asking you to help me which was done generously .? At the time , I was reading Halliday's account of Nigel . In the middle of the task , I thought it better to ask you to direct me to more relevant material in regard to the connection between Vygotsky and Halliday but I could not find "How do we mean?" which page of which you had alluded to . I went to Ruqaiya Hasan , found her dialogue with Mike . It ended with my reading of 50 page long book or article by Gordon Wells .? I found out it's not the case that Gordon Wells , as against some or most of our esteemed participants , leans unidirectinally towards word and broader conceptions (semiosis,semiotics) unaware of the much-quoted marxist notions in Vygotsky's works . And this is what is so vital for me . Hence my reading of Andy's recent article on Academia which ends in accepting the reciprocity of the two concepts , word and deed which is again so vital to me (remove your accusation against me indicating I see everything in the act) . I'm not allowed to quote Andy but with me it thusly came out not well-wrought : Yes , yes , fantastic ! The spark which sprang from the hitting (of the hammer on the nail as labour activity) soared to consciousness which fit a human environment which cradled the word which grew up to its supremacy which rewarded the hitting this time with a golden hammer .? This needs support on the part of Vygotsky who is , through his many situated quotes and with no doubt , a true marxist but his explicit marxist notions are denied purposefully so that not just our world of mentality but also our world of living become all-signing . And this is one support , first of my quotes : [[More ?generally, ?in ?his ?writings ?on ?this ?issue, ?Vygotsky ?was ?concerned ?to?establish ?two ?very ?important ?principles. ?The ?first ?was ?that ?the ?intellectual ?devel-? opment ?of ?the ?individual ?cannot ?be ?understood ?without ?taking ?into ?account ?his ?or?her ?interactions ?with ?other ?people ?(emanating from her interactions with the objects/world-later quotes-my emphasis) in ?his ?or ?her ?social ?environment; ?as ?he ?puts ?it,??the ?levels ?of ?generalization ?in ?[the ?thinking ?of] ?a ?child ?correspond ?strictly ?to ?the?levels ?in ?the ?development ?of ?social ?interaction? ?Vygotsky, ?19.56, ?p. ?432; ?quoted?in ?Wertsch, ?1983, ?p. ?26). ?And ?the ?second ?was ?that ?this ?social ?environment ?is?itself ?influenced ?by ?the ?wider ?culture ?which ?varies ?according ?to ?the ?forms ?and?organization ?of ?labor ?activity ?that ?are ?practiced ?and ?the ?material ?and ?semiotic?tools ?that ?are ?employed.]]? This is all clear and quite relevant to the current discussion ; how is it not , SSD ? and the relevant question on the part of a respectable inquirer to the effect of whether SSD is the same as the environment and where is the difference ? and how could it be a unit of analysis with its versatile components , that is , itself covering tools , signs , word , let alone , rules , community , division of labour , etc. ? And the second was that this social environment is ITSELF influenced by the WIDER CULTURE WHICH VARIES ACCORDING TO THE FORMS AND ORGANIZATION OF [[LABOUR ACTIVITY]] that are practiced and the MATERIAL and semiotic tools that are employed . Is this not the very socio-economic formation five of which were recognized by Marx and just recently slightly? mocked at?? Erratics are always due ; but what I think is Vygotsky's cultural psychology was based (and could not be otherwise at the specific era of historical events) on Marx's labour theory , that is , having been considered as superstructure ; the bigger world knows Mike Cole accountable for this (a marxist take) as Dr.Macombe decided to introduce him as the top leader of the Activity Theory . Other quotes are related , too , and most explicitly speak to this debate .? One suggestion : I doubt if 800 people all need to read all the materials you send or know all the philosophers / scholars you introduce ; so , please don't consider it enough to put it thusly ... ?as x said ... y declared ... ? ? Best Haydi From: David Kellogg To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Monday, 23 March 2015, 3:26:22 Subject: [Xmca-l] "Language" vs. "Speech" First of all, I think the main problem with Haydi's "food for thought" is not that it appears, deus ex machina, with a subject line that makes it almost impossible to join to any current or even past thread. I think the main problem is that it's not sourced. I recognize, it, though: it's a set of quotations from Gordon Wells' 1999 work, "Dialogic Inquiry", which was an attempt to synthesize Vygotsky's work with that of Michael Halliday. I was enchanted with this book when it first came out, and I still find passages of it quite remarkable (e.g. Wells' identification of ideation with intra-mental uses of speech, something that I think neither Halliday nor Vygotsky would agree with). But the part of it that Haydi wants us (well, me, anyway) to remark is actually related to an issue that surfaces now and again in many of our discussions (e.g. the extent to which "perizhivanie" is untranslatable, the distinction between "obuchenie" and "learning", etc..) On the face of it, what Wells says is contradictory. If semiotic behavior is by definition a process of meaning, how can material action be a form of semiotic behavior without being a form of meaning?? It cannot. But in fact what Halliday did was to distinguish between semiotic behavior and semantic behavior. Semiotic behavior is everywhere--everything we do has to refer to something else: backwards, to a motive, and forwards to an outcome. But semantics is a stratum of language--it's what happens when we select from the material world phenomena and processes that we intend (mean in the intentional sense) to encode as language. I think it goes without almost without saying (no pun intended) that language is not the "tool of tools" but rather the neoformation of neoformations: we see that in Vygotsky's ontogenetic stages, every major neoformation is centrally concerned with language in general, and semantics in particular. In fact, the formation of the personality is largely a matter of selecting from the social situation of development those elements which constitute the child's "I". But then why does Vygotsky say that speech is only a neoformation in early childhood, and that at school age speech becomes a peripheral line of development? I think the answer is that "speech" in Vygotsky is actually much narrower than "language". And this alone tells us how very wrong our predecessors were to translate Vygotsky's magnum opus as "Thought and Language". David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Mar 23 09:14:47 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:14:47 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Fwd: Two Jobs at CBCD London In-Reply-To: References: <4ABFA556-6934-42A7-9B88-1F5B9558F683@mail.bbk.ac.uk> <8CEA0915-9B33-4536-9066-BDC8204B94F1@mail.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: For European younger scholars. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Amanda Woodward Date: Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 6:20 AM Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Fwd: Two Jobs at CBCD London To: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org Forwarded from Mark Johnson -- Dear colleagues, We have some nice ?early postdoc" jobs going in London that ? due to the complexities of EU funding regulations ? have very specific requirements that would ideally suit a European citizen that is finishing up a PhD ? but not in the UK. Basically, the person should not have lived in the UK for longer than 12 months over the past 3 years, should not yet have received their PhD (although this can be pending), and should be within 4 years of being awarded the degree that enabled them to do a PhD (typically a Masters or BSc/BA)?..non European citizens are not excluded, but it can be hard to obtain a work permit at this early career stage. Do pass this on to any likely candidates. See below for details. Best wishes, Mark Johnson Two Early Stage Researchers are required for BRAINVIEW, a pan-European Marie Sklodowksa-Curie Innovative Training Network project. BRAINVIEW aims to investigate the disruptions of prenatal and postnatal brain development that underlie neurodevelopmental disorders with onset early in life, such as autism and ADHD. The network will train Early Stage Researchers (ESRs) and produce new knowledge, methods and technology to answer critical issues in our efforts to understand, prevent, diagnose and treat neurodevelopmental disorders. The ESRs will be supervised by Professor Mark Johnson and Dr Emily Jones at the Centre for Brain and Cognitive Development, Birkbeck, University of London, London, UK, ( http://www.cbcd.bbk.ac.uk/). *Early Stage Researcher 6 (ESR6) Project Title: The role of atypical neural connectivity in the emergence of ASD and ADHD.* *Early Stage Researcher 7 (ESR7) Project Title: Understanding the role of inhibition/excitation balance in the early development of ASD.* We expect applicants to possess a degree in a relevant area (preferably neuroscience or experimental psychology), or equivalent experience. You should have experience in working with neuroimaging data or other complex datasets, strong skills with programming tools such as Matlab, have excellent written and spoken English skills and the ability to work in a team. Experience in developmental cognitive neuroscience and/or autism or ADHD research especially with children or infants is desirable. Further, you should be able, after training, to build an independent career in the field of neurodevelopmental disorders. *Candidate Requirements: *For Marie Sklodowksa-Curie positions, candidates can be accepted only if they have not lived for longer than 12 months in the past three years in the UK. The ESR shall, at the time of recruitment by the host organisation, be in the first four years (full-time equivalent research experience) of their research career and have not been awarded a doctoral degree. Salary range: ?30,868.10 to ?38,621.59 per annum depending on the circumstances of the candidate. This post is full-time, 35 hours per week (1.0 FTE) and fixed term for 3 years. *We will accept applications until the posts are filled.* For further information on this opportunity contact Dr Emily Jones at e.jones@bbk.ac.uk. A link to the PDF document containing the job description and person specification is below. https://www15.i-grasp.com/fe/tpl_birkbeckcollege01.asp?s=4A515F4E5A565B1A&jobid=56714,9371546086&key=88735754&c=522135253415&pagestamp=seefqdtjffonqrdbph ------------------------------ To unsubscribe from the ISISLIST list, click the following link: &*TICKET_URL(ISISLIST,SIGNOFF); ------------------------------ To unsubscribe from the ISISLIST list, click the following link: http://listserv.neu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?TICKET=NzM1NzEwIHdvb2R3YXJkQFVDSElDQUdPLkVEVSBJU0lTTElTVJBK9whNhyFc&c=SIGNOFF -- Amanda Woodward William S. Gray Professor and Chair Department of Psychology University of Chicago 5848 South University Avenue Chicago, IL 60637 (773) 702-8829 http://woodwardlab.uchicago.edu woodward@uchicago.edu _______________________________________________ To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) To subscribe or unsubscribe from the listserv, visit: http://lists.cogdevsoc.org/listinfo.cgi/cogdevsoc-cogdevsoc.org -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Mar 23 11:35:21 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 18:35:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Anyone for luxury communism? Message-ID: <1427135721457.19863@unm.edu> ?Things are getting curiouser and curiouser... http://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/mar/18/fully-automated-luxury-communism-robots-employment From lemke.jay@gmail.com Mon Mar 23 19:59:55 2015 From: lemke.jay@gmail.com (Jay Lemke) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 19:59:55 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] nonlinear time Message-ID: There are already many good references given here, but I would add Michel Serres' account of narrative time in a classic essay, The Origin of Language, in the collection Hermes -- Johns Hopkins Press, 1982. Don't go by the title -- it's a wide ranging and brilliant essay linking language and complex nonlinear systems, and one of the earliest uses of the notion of "folded time" that I know, based on the mathematical analysis of nonlinear dynamics, but presented in a humanist discourse. JAY. Jay Lemke LCHC/Department of Communication University of California - San Diego www.jaylemke.com From lemke.jay@gmail.com Mon Mar 23 20:11:20 2015 From: lemke.jay@gmail.com (Jay Lemke) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 20:11:20 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] way, way behind Message-ID: I just found 200 xmca posts in the inbox of my UCSD account, and replied to one before I noticed that they were all from last year! Current ones are in my gmail account ... so I'll send a note or two from here soon. JAY. Jay Lemke LCHC/Department of Communication University of California - San Diego www.jaylemke.com From lemke.jay@gmail.com Mon Mar 23 20:19:45 2015 From: lemke.jay@gmail.com (Jay Lemke) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 20:19:45 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Informal Learning Blog Message-ID: As I think people on xmca already know, MIT Press recently published a book by Mike Cole, me, Robert Lecusay (recent grad of the LCHC lab), and Vera Michalchick (now of Stanford) on assessing informal learning. We are just starting a Blogger forum for people who'd like to ask questions, make comments, or discuss issues related to informal learning, assessment, documentation, policy, etc. it's at: http://lemke-cole-lecusay-michalchik.blogspot.com/?view=sidebar We've just posted a vignette by Mike about the value of participant fieldnotes, as one of the first of a series elaborating on the book's Conclusions & Recommendations. You can see the 3 posts so far, with Comments, in Classic view, or by clicking the tabs in Sidebar view. We are also trying to tag posts with labels referring to various categories of recommendations. Please join the conversation, if this is an area of interest to you! JAY. Jay Lemke LCHC/Department of Communication University of California - San Diego www.jaylemke.com From lemke.jay@gmail.com Mon Mar 23 20:53:54 2015 From: lemke.jay@gmail.com (Jay Lemke) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 20:53:54 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference In-Reply-To: <1426882481776.83078@unm.edu> References: <1794094062.7969537.1426407406883.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022CAFBC@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <887B70AE-CEC7-48A2-9DCF-B9A57431323B@gmail.com> <1426882481776.83078@unm.edu> Message-ID: Whew! Just quickly read through a LONG sequence of posts in this thread, which seems to have wound itself like a cat's cradle around quite a few different fingers. Typically, as I recall past threads on xmca! :-) But with all the talk about technologies and social impacts, I rather thought the original question got lost: How are computer-mediated technologies influencing language itself. By which I think one means language change, and in particular, as it is by far the most used language online, change in the English language? I know there are researchers already looking into this (sorry, I don't have cites on hand; google it!). But I think that this perspective does raise interesting parallels with the advent of printing. Print made a LOT more people Readers. Online communication is making a LOT more people Writers. Print slowly shifted diverse dialect-dominated languages toward standardized written national languages. Online communication is rapidly promoting the development of international flavors of English (sometimes called by linguists World Englishes). Online written communication lowers the barriers to language innovation, neologisms (BTW, brb, IMHO), and possibly the mixing of English with both vocabulary and even grammatical preferences from other languages. Online many people are writing English (or something like it) who are not native speakers and not very formally educated in the language. They are often writing it to other people who are similarly casual users of, call it Anglish. The language police are present so far mainly through software which tries to conform what you type to some standard international Language (I have a few keyboard settings and they each come with automated language police). I see this as part of the modern battle between the interests of the Corporate Few (including the modern State) in uniformity and predictability of markets (voters) vs. the interests of the rest of us in communicating with as few constraints and at as low a price in time and effort as possible. While not focused on online communication, Minae Mizumura's The Fall of Language (poor title translation) in the Age of English, gives some interesting history of what happens to local languages when they fall under the influence of international ones. At the very least, this history suggests that internet Anglish is going to catalyze a LOT of language change. JAY. Jay Lemke LCHC/Department of Communication University of California - San Diego www.jaylemke.com On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello Esteemed XMCArs, > > One area that the computer has made an impact, that I'm unsure is the > analog in the pre-computer era of human experience, is something called > trolling. > > Trolling has something of a double definition. It can be picking a fight > on a list, starting a flame war, etc. This can be done in a few ways. > > There's the overt arguing about points but never letting go and never > getting to a point to agree to disagree, just seeing how far one can kick > the can down the road. > > Then there's something more covert. This is done by posting something so > ridiculously in error that the gullible or those unfamiliar with the > character of posters on a list (who will perform this for the spectacle as > the drama unfolds of "eating popcorn" with others or by oneself), will post > in earnest a reply and thusly become a target for further trolling at a > later time. > > I have yet to experience that here on XMCA, but I suppose that it's still > possible that this kind of behavior which seems to be promoted by anonymity > of the Internet, can happen here, though I'd hope that this list is of a > higher standard. On other lists I've seen that this behavior is dealt with > by the pat wisdom, "Don't Feed the Trolls." Though I'm not sure how well > that serves people. > > Another, more abusive form of trolling is the caustic heinous (and > therefore criminal) kind we see on platforms like Twitter, which is made by > a coward who uses a sock puppet (an pseudonymous account to disguise one's > identity), to post all kinds of verbal and symbolic filth and abuse upon a > targeted victim, usually women, people of color and/or LGBT folks. Famous > people are also victim to this, such as Lena Dunham or Ashley Judd. > Happily, I noticed that Ashley Judd is announcing that she is pressing > charges upon those who recently trolled her on Twitter. Lena Dunham has > just deleted her account period. Somehow both these solutions are > unsatisfactory to me. > > In any case, it seems that the effect, whether for benign LOLs, or to > terrifically verbally abuse another person, can only be out of a > deep-seated need to humiliate another person. > > What I wonder is this: Where does this need come from? Perhaps other > XMCArs can comment any hypotheses? > > The tool of the computer amplifies this psychological pathology. I can say > this is one area where computers make a big difference in the quality of > life for many people, if not HUGE. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Mon Mar 23 21:18:24 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 04:18:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Informal Learning Blog References: Message-ID: Jay, Thank you for sharing this, I know this article, especially the three level of outcomes is generating much discussion in the squishy assessment circles a few of us play in. As a side note here is the start of some annotations: https://hypothes.is/stream?q=tag:%27informal%20assessment%27 A group of us are organizing twitter chats and annotation events around the article. I will share the blog url with everyone. Enjoyed the piece, Greg On Mon, Mar 23, 2015, 11:22 PM Jay Lemke wrote: > As I think people on xmca already know, MIT Press recently published a book > by Mike Cole, me, Robert Lecusay (recent grad of the LCHC lab), and Vera > Michalchick (now of Stanford) on assessing informal learning. > > We are just starting a Blogger forum for people who'd like to ask > questions, make comments, or discuss issues related to informal learning, > assessment, documentation, policy, etc. it's at: > http://lemke-cole-lecusay-michalchik.blogspot.com/?view=sidebar > > We've just posted a vignette by Mike about the value of participant > fieldnotes, as one of the first of a series elaborating on the book's > Conclusions & Recommendations. > > You can see the 3 posts so far, with Comments, in Classic view, or by > clicking the tabs in Sidebar view. We are also trying to tag posts with > labels referring to various categories of recommendations. > > Please join the conversation, if this is an area of interest to you! > > JAY. > > Jay Lemke > LCHC/Department of Communication > University of California - San Diego > www.jaylemke.com > From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Mon Mar 23 21:18:24 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 04:18:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Informal Learning Blog References: Message-ID: Jay, Thank you for sharing this, I know this article, especially the three level of outcomes is generating much discussion in the squishy assessment circles a few of us play in. As a side note here is the start of some annotations: https://hypothes.is/stream?q=tag:%27informal%20assessment%27 A group of us are organizing twitter chats and annotation events around the article. I will share the blog url with everyone. Enjoyed the piece, Greg On Mon, Mar 23, 2015, 11:22 PM Jay Lemke wrote: > As I think people on xmca already know, MIT Press recently published a book > by Mike Cole, me, Robert Lecusay (recent grad of the LCHC lab), and Vera > Michalchick (now of Stanford) on assessing informal learning. > > We are just starting a Blogger forum for people who'd like to ask > questions, make comments, or discuss issues related to informal learning, > assessment, documentation, policy, etc. it's at: > http://lemke-cole-lecusay-michalchik.blogspot.com/?view=sidebar > > We've just posted a vignette by Mike about the value of participant > fieldnotes, as one of the first of a series elaborating on the book's > Conclusions & Recommendations. > > You can see the 3 posts so far, with Comments, in Classic view, or by > clicking the tabs in Sidebar view. We are also trying to tag posts with > labels referring to various categories of recommendations. > > Please join the conversation, if this is an area of interest to you! > > JAY. > > Jay Lemke > LCHC/Department of Communication > University of California - San Diego > www.jaylemke.com > From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Mar 23 21:47:41 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 21:47:41 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: way, way behind In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: :-) welcome back, Jay. Interesting comments in your blog, Greg. mike On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 8:11 PM, Jay Lemke wrote: > I just found 200 xmca posts in the inbox of my UCSD account, and replied to > one before I noticed that they were all from last year! > > Current ones are in my gmail account ... so I'll send a note or two from > here soon. > > JAY. > > Jay Lemke > LCHC/Department of Communication > University of California - San Diego > www.jaylemke.com > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Mon Mar 23 23:07:48 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 06:07:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Anyone for luxury communism? In-Reply-To: <1427135721457.19863@unm.edu> References: <1427135721457.19863@unm.edu> Message-ID: <987466116.110448.1427177268225.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Again Vygotsky replies : Congratulate sweet childish dreams !! :-) From: Annalisa Aguilar To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Monday, 23 March 2015, 23:05:21 Subject: [Xmca-l] Anyone for luxury communism? ?Things are getting curiouser and curiouser... http://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/mar/18/fully-automated-luxury-communism-robots-employment From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Tue Mar 24 02:07:14 2015 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 09:07:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Anyone for luxury communism? In-Reply-To: <987466116.110448.1427177268225.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1427135721457.19863@unm.edu> <987466116.110448.1427177268225.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi xmca'ers Apart from a 'minor' omission - revolution and the period of the dictatorship of the proletariat, I can't see anything wrong with that vision, can you? Tom Richardson Middlesbrough UK On 24 March 2015 at 06:07, Haydi Zulfei wrote: > Again Vygotsky replies : > Congratulate sweet childish dreams !! :-) > From: Annalisa Aguilar > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Monday, 23 March 2015, 23:05:21 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Anyone for luxury communism? > > > ?Things are getting curiouser and curiouser... > > > > http://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/mar/18/fully-automated-luxury-communism-robots-employment > > > From smago@uga.edu Tue Mar 24 04:33:00 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 11:33:00 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: [Fulbright Scholar Program] TEFL Opportunities Webinar In-Reply-To: <1427195934761.52138@uga.edu> References: <1427195934761.52138@uga.edu> Message-ID: THIS IS A FORWARDED MESSAGE. PLEASE READ ITS CONTENTS CAREFULLY AND REPLY TO THE ORIGINAL SENDER RATHER THAN TO ME From: Spencer Salas Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 7:19 AM To: Peter Smagorinsky Subject: Fw: [Fulbright Scholar Program] TEFL Opportunities Webinar Dear Peter, Could you possibly distribute widely? Sincerely, Spencer ________________________________ From: Margo Cunniffe > Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 3:00 PM To: Spencer Salas Subject: [Fulbright Scholar Program] TEFL Opportunities Webinar View this email in a web page [http://www.cies2.org/s/1064/images/editor/designs/email_templates/alt-header.png] Teaching and Research Opportunities in TEFL The 2016-2017 Fulbright U.S. Scholar TEFL Competition is Now Open The Fulbright TEFL award offers teaching and teaching/research opportunities in 52 countries for the 2016-2017 academic year. Opportunities are available for college and university faculty as well as qualified professionals. Interested faculty and professionals are encouraged to learn more about the Fulbright TEFL award by visiting the online Catalog of Awards (http://catalog.cies.org/) or by participating in the upcoming TEFL Webinar on March 26 (Webinar registration page: http://www.cies.org/event/fulbright-scholar-opportunities-tefl). The webinar will provide an overview of worldwide opportunities to conduct teacher training, curriculum development and, in certain countries, research in TEFL. The Global TEFL award is an opportunity for U.S. faculty and professionals to expand the number of countries in which they may be considered. Applicants can indicate interest in multiple countries or regions. Proposals should reflect a specific teaching project related to English language teacher training, but also show breadth of experience so that review in multiple countries can be facilitated. The application deadline is Monday, August 3, 2015. U.S. citizenship is required. For other eligibility requirements and more program information, please visit our website or contact Margo Cunniffe, mcunniffe@iie.org. The Fulbright Program, sponsored by the U.S. Department of State's Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs, is the U.S. government's flagship international exchange program and is supported by the people of the United States and partner countries around the world. For more information, visit eca.state.gov/Fulbright. Stay Connected: [Twitter][Facebook][LinkedIn][Google +][rss feed] [http://www.cies2.org/s/1064/images/editor/designs/email_templates/footer.jpg] CIES - Fulbright 1400 K Street NW, Suite 700 Washington, DC 20005 If you wish to be removed from this group's mailing list, click here From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Mar 24 08:26:30 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:26:30 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] M.Winn Paper for Discussion Message-ID: There has been a delay at the publishers in releasing Maisha Winn's paper which you-all selected for discussion in the newest issue of MCA. Lots of other good materials there as the distribution of votes indicates, but this is what we can distribute properly. The paper is a new genre of MCA. We hope you find it as interesting and helpful as we do. mike for the editors. -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Winn.mca.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 92444 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150324/60f4b850/attachment.pdf From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Mar 24 08:42:52 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 15:42:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Education & Society (was Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy) Message-ID: The quote below is from El'konin's (1971) paper, Towards the problem of stages in the mental development of children . This is simply asserting that societies such as ours (UK/US/AUS etc, and Russian too for this matter) do NOT provide schooling that provides a creative understanding, i.e. schooling cannot deliver this true form of education under its manner of administration. This is simply manifest in the dominant role (priority) of the reproduction of notation rather than genuine understanding, which is enforced by society (teaching to test on behalf of 'societal needs'). Note that this assertion is not saying that one _develops_ in a manner in accordance with one's society (i.e. that different forms of society afford different, but commensurate, forms of development). Rather it is asserting that development is prevented in certain modes of society. The point, again, is that development here is referring to structural change in the cognitive capacity of the child/agent as a key component of developmental phenomena. Huw "The correct solution of the problem of developmental periods will in large measure determine the strategy employed in constructing a comprehensive educational system for the coming generation in our country. The practical significance of this problem will increase as we approach the point when we must elaborate the principles for a unified public system of education encompassing the entire period of childhood. We must emphasize the fact that the construction of such a system in compliance with the laws of developmental stages of childhood is possible only within a socialist society; for it is only in such a society that has a maximum interest in the full and harmonious development of the abilities of every one of its members and, consequently, in the fullest possible use of the potential of each developmental stage." On 23 March 2015 at 09:55, Andy Blunden wrote: > Of course! > a > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Rod Parker-Rees wrote: > >> The system may work (more or less and more for some than others) but I >> don't see how it could be described as 'finished', Andy. There is a >> continuing, lively competition among groups of parents to identify >> 'better', 'kinder' or just 'faster' ways of supporting their children's >> development and a thriving market in books, classes, equipment etc. to >> 'help' parents to do the right thing for their children. There is a lot of >> exploitation and misinformation mixed up in this but the continuing play >> with different ways of doing things is probably beneficial in the longer >> term as it leavens cultural practices - preventing them from solidifying >> into a universally approved and prescribed practice which is good enough >> for most. >> >> Rod >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ >> mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >> Sent: 23 March 2015 00:40 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy >> >> I think that cultural forms of child-rearing and the corresponding >> expectations placed upon the child have been developed by communities over >> centuries and part of that process is the collective experience of the >> relevant practices. Doubtless all sorts of crazy practices have been tried >> out at different times, but if the children do not respond as expected, the >> idea is dropped or modified. I think this is the point at which the >> biological limitations and predispositions of children comes in. But the >> present-day child is presented with a finished, working system. >> I seem to recall that Barbara Rogoff has written about this. >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Mar 24 12:07:05 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 13:07:05 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: M.Winn Paper for Discussion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, Will this conversation be carried out in a "meet-the-authors" style of past conversations? I.e., will Maisha Winn be looped into the conversation? -greg On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 9:26 AM, mike cole wrote: > There has been a delay at the publishers in releasing Maisha Winn's paper > which you-all selected for discussion in the newest issue > of MCA. Lots of other good materials there as the distribution of votes > indicates, but this is what we can distribute properly. > > The paper is a new genre of MCA. We hope you find it as interesting and > helpful as we do. > > mike for the editors. > > -- > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Mar 24 12:49:58 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:49:58 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: M.Winn Paper for Discussion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Greg --Maisha is on research leave and is protecting herself with an away notice. I have, of course, invited her to participate. I am uncertain whether or not she will be able to responded more or less concurrently. All the comments and discussion will of course be available for discussion as lives allow. mike On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:07 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Mike, > Will this conversation be carried out in a "meet-the-authors" style of past > conversations? I.e., will Maisha Winn be looped into the conversation? > -greg > > On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 9:26 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > There has been a delay at the publishers in releasing Maisha Winn's paper > > which you-all selected for discussion in the newest issue > > of MCA. Lots of other good materials there as the distribution of votes > > indicates, but this is what we can distribute properly. > > > > The paper is a new genre of MCA. We hope you find it as interesting and > > helpful as we do. > > > > mike for the editors. > > > > -- > > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. > Waddington > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Mar 26 08:20:13 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 09:20:13 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: New Book on Brain-Friendly Assessments is Here! In-Reply-To: <140B6C15-0458-4E15-A614-D8CC45BFEB56@bigpond.com> References: <258917601.-1354547588.1426503217451.JavaMail.root@sjmas01.marketo.org> <5506C7EC.30204@mira.net> <140B6C15-0458-4E15-A614-D8CC45BFEB56@bigpond.com> Message-ID: And here is one that looks to be more directly relevant to educational neuroscience, Mary Helen Immordino-Yang. She is one of the keynote (early career award) speakers at AERA this year. I'll paste the full details below. Culture shapes brain shapes culture...? -greg AERA Early Career Award (2014) Lecture: Mary Helen Immordino-Yang, University of Southern California *Embodied Brains, Social Minds, Cultural Meaning: Applying Social Affective Neuroscience to Development and Education* Sunday April 19, 8:15 to 9:45 a.m. Hyatt, West Tower - Gold Level - Regency C Social emotions shape how we act, who we become, and how we experience our own lives. But how? Mary Helen Immordino-Yang will present her research on the neurobiology and psychology of admiration, compassion and inspiration, including these emotions? deep visceral roots in the feeling and regulation of the body and consciousness, and their propensity to heighten one?s own subjective sense of self-awareness and purpose. She will share findings from her ongoing longitudinal study of these emotions among low-SES adolescents from immigrant families in Los Angeles, and what the findings reveal about how culture, family relationships, media use, exposure to community violence and other factors shape the brain bases of emotional experience, with implications for academic performance and life outcomes. On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 8:04 PM, Helen Harper wrote: > Thanks very much Greg. This looks like a very interesting book > > regards, > Helen > > > On 18 Mar 2015, at 3:58 am, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > > Helen, > > This doesn't quite speak to your question of educational neuroscience, > but > > I find this to be an interesting take on brains and contexts: > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/The-Encultured-Brain-Introduction-Neuroanthropology/dp/0262017784 > > > > The authors of The Encultured Brain, Greg Downey and Daniel Lende, were > > both trained as anthropologists and thus, compared to your average > > neuroscientist, they have a little better grasp of the importance of > > context. At the same time, as compared with your average anthropologist, > > they appreciate the importance of understanding the biological brain. > > > > -greg > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 5:31 AM, Helen Harper > > wrote: > > > >> Thank you very much for this article Mike. You bring such clarity to > this > >> historical perspective. I laughed when I clicked on the youtube link! > >> (thinking it was going to be some neuroscience thing). > >> > >> Your discussion of Bereiter and Engelmann is especially useful and > timely > >> for me to ponder, given that the Australian government is in the > process of > >> spending millions getting remote schools to do Direct Instruction (or > some > >> form of it anyway). > >> > >> i was also wondering, still on the 'brain-friendly' topic, if anyone has > >> any writing specifically about 'brain-based learning' - and whether any > of > >> those 'brain-based' people ever have anything to say about learning in a > >> social context? I want to know, does 'brain-based learning' represent an > >> ideology in which learning is constructed as something that takes place > >> entirely inside the brain of the individual, or have I missed something? > >> > >> Helen > >> > >> > >>> On 17 Mar 2015, at 6:15 am, mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>> Some relevant material here, Helen. Peter probably has a bunch more. > >>> > >>> I am afraid that back to the future is the way things are going. Very > >> nice > >>> when you like that past as your future, not so nice when you > don't...... > >>> makes it seems like you want to ask, a la Pete Seeger and "where have > all > >>> the flowers gone," "when will they ever learn." > >>> > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y2SIIeqy34 > >>> > >>> mike > >>> > >>> On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 5:26 AM, Helen Harper < > helen.harper@bigpond.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Speaking of which, can anyone point me to any recent sociocultural or > >>>> cultural-historical-informed critiques of the current culture-free > >> trends > >>>> in educational neuroscience? I would be much obliged. > >>>> > >>>> Helen > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On 16 Mar 2015, at 9:39 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I think I'll send my brain along to one of these sessions! > >>>>> Andy > >>>>> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > >>>>>> The latest in culture-free educational solutions?..p > >>>>>> > >>>>>> From: Learning Sciences International [mailto: > >>>> lsiinfo@learningsciences.com] > >>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 6:54 AM > >>>>>> To: Peter Smagorinsky > >>>>>> Subject: New Book on Brain-Friendly Assessments is Here! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> FORWARD THIS EMAIL< > >>>> http://email.learningsciences.com/v/CAi00q0ab0ZT0VBV3T07J08> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [Learning Sciences International] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> NOW AVAILABLE! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Effective assessments based on neuroscience. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Looking to design brain-friendly assessments that deepen students? > >>>> understanding? Want to fairly assess all students, including > >>>> English-language learners and those who are homeschooled? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In Brain-Friendly Assessments< > >>>> http://email.learningsciences.com/kT0rb0V00Zi03ABTV70b80J>, by > >>>> bestselling author David A. Sousa empowers teachers with research > >> findings > >>>> from educational neuroscience to help determine what, who, where, and > >> how > >>>> to assess?and it?s now available! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ORDER NOW > > >>>> and you can have a copy in your hands this week! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ?A powerful book, Brain-Friendly Assessments has informed my > >>>> instruction as well as assessment. I cannot overstate how appreciative > >> I am > >>>> of the way the author distilled the essence of assessment into > >>>> student-centered, sensible best practices.? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ?Alana Margeson, 2012 Maine Teacher of the Year > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Brain-Friendly > >>>>>> Assessments > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> What They Are and How to Use Them > >>>>>> [Brain-Friendly Assessments]< > >>>> > >> > http://education-store.learningsciences.com/product_p/bpp150401.htm?utm_source=bfaannouncementemail&utm_medium=sidebarimagelink&utm_campaign=bssousa > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [ORDER NOW]< > >>>> > >> > http://education-store.learningsciences.com/product_p/bpp150401.htm?utm_source=bfaannouncementemail&utm_medium=ordernowbutton&utm_campaign=bssousa > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> LEARNING SCIENCES INTERNATIONAL > >>>>>> > >>>>>> About Us > >>>> | Research Services< > >>>> http://email.learningsciences.com/XBb0itA0V000JZ8VT037Td0> | > Student > >>>> Surveys | > >>>> Publishing > | > >>>> Blog | > >> Contact > >>>> Us > >>>>>> [Facebook]< > http://email.learningsciences.com/wAVJV8BTb0000i7y00T3i0Z> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [Twitter] > > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [Google +]< > http://email.learningsciences.com/gk0V8Vb0T307AJ0BT000AZi> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [Pinterest]< > http://email.learningsciences.com/hbi7l8A00T000TBZV030JBV > >>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This email was sent to SMAGO@UGA.EDU. If you > no > >>>> longer wish to receive these emails you may unsubscribe< > >>>> http://email.learningsciences.com/u/umV000VA8b0B0C03ZiTTJ70> at any > >> time. > >>>>>> 1400 Centrepark Boulevard, Suite 1000 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >> object > >>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Mar 26 09:37:31 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 09:37:31 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: New Book on Brain-Friendly Assessments is Here! In-Reply-To: References: <258917601.-1354547588.1426503217451.JavaMail.root@sjmas01.marketo.org> <5506C7EC.30204@mira.net> <140B6C15-0458-4E15-A614-D8CC45BFEB56@bigpond.com> Message-ID: Thanks for that abstract, Greg. Very helpful and immediately relevant to work Martin and I are engaged in. Here is the link to a bunch of her papers for those of you following these issues. http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~immordin/ Notice the causal sequence in the following topic sentence of the abstract: "Social emotions shape how we act, who we become, and how we experience our own lives." I managed to perezhit the assumptions in that sentence, but wonder how others perezhil-ed it. Mike (For the totally baffled, there is a lot of discussion going on around the Russian concept of perezhivanie, cognition/affect relationships, and such. My question is a serious one. In what senses and under what conditions (two ways of saying the same thing?) can we say that social emotions are causes?) (Perezhivanie is a super candidate for what is referred to as a social emotion). On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 8:20 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > And here is one that looks to be more directly relevant to educational > neuroscience, Mary Helen Immordino-Yang. She is one of the keynote (early > career award) speakers at AERA this year. I'll paste the full details > below. > Culture shapes brain shapes culture...? > -greg > > AERA Early Career Award (2014) Lecture: Mary Helen Immordino-Yang, > University of Southern California > > > *Embodied Brains, Social Minds, Cultural Meaning: Applying Social Affective > Neuroscience to Development and Education* > Sunday April 19, 8:15 to 9:45 a.m. > Hyatt, West Tower - Gold Level - Regency C > > Social emotions shape how we act, who we become, and how we experience our > own lives. But how? Mary Helen Immordino-Yang will present her research on > the neurobiology and psychology of admiration, compassion and inspiration, > including these emotions? deep visceral roots in the feeling and regulation > of the body and consciousness, and their propensity to heighten one?s own > subjective sense of self-awareness and purpose. She will share findings > from her ongoing longitudinal study of these emotions among low-SES > adolescents from immigrant families in Los Angeles, and what the findings > reveal about how culture, family relationships, media use, exposure to > community violence and other factors shape the brain bases of emotional > experience, with implications for academic performance and life outcomes. > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 8:04 PM, Helen Harper > wrote: > > > Thanks very much Greg. This looks like a very interesting book > > > > regards, > > Helen > > > > > On 18 Mar 2015, at 3:58 am, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > > > > > Helen, > > > This doesn't quite speak to your question of educational neuroscience, > > but > > > I find this to be an interesting take on brains and contexts: > > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/The-Encultured-Brain-Introduction-Neuroanthropology/dp/0262017784 > > > > > > The authors of The Encultured Brain, Greg Downey and Daniel Lende, were > > > both trained as anthropologists and thus, compared to your average > > > neuroscientist, they have a little better grasp of the importance of > > > context. At the same time, as compared with your average > anthropologist, > > > they appreciate the importance of understanding the biological brain. > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 5:31 AM, Helen Harper < > helen.harper@bigpond.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Thank you very much for this article Mike. You bring such clarity to > > this > > >> historical perspective. I laughed when I clicked on the youtube link! > > >> (thinking it was going to be some neuroscience thing). > > >> > > >> Your discussion of Bereiter and Engelmann is especially useful and > > timely > > >> for me to ponder, given that the Australian government is in the > > process of > > >> spending millions getting remote schools to do Direct Instruction (or > > some > > >> form of it anyway). > > >> > > >> i was also wondering, still on the 'brain-friendly' topic, if anyone > has > > >> any writing specifically about 'brain-based learning' - and whether > any > > of > > >> those 'brain-based' people ever have anything to say about learning > in a > > >> social context? I want to know, does 'brain-based learning' represent > an > > >> ideology in which learning is constructed as something that takes > place > > >> entirely inside the brain of the individual, or have I missed > something? > > >> > > >> Helen > > >> > > >> > > >>> On 17 Mar 2015, at 6:15 am, mike cole wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Some relevant material here, Helen. Peter probably has a bunch more. > > >>> > > >>> I am afraid that back to the future is the way things are going. Very > > >> nice > > >>> when you like that past as your future, not so nice when you > > don't...... > > >>> makes it seems like you want to ask, a la Pete Seeger and "where have > > all > > >>> the flowers gone," "when will they ever learn." > > >>> > > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y2SIIeqy34 > > >>> > > >>> mike > > >>> > > >>> On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 5:26 AM, Helen Harper < > > helen.harper@bigpond.com> > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Speaking of which, can anyone point me to any recent sociocultural > or > > >>>> cultural-historical-informed critiques of the current culture-free > > >> trends > > >>>> in educational neuroscience? I would be much obliged. > > >>>> > > >>>> Helen > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> On 16 Mar 2015, at 9:39 pm, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I think I'll send my brain along to one of these sessions! > > >>>>> Andy > > >>>>> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>>>> *Andy Blunden* > > >>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > >>>>>> The latest in culture-free educational solutions?..p > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> From: Learning Sciences International [mailto: > > >>>> lsiinfo@learningsciences.com] > > >>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 6:54 AM > > >>>>>> To: Peter Smagorinsky > > >>>>>> Subject: New Book on Brain-Friendly Assessments is Here! > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> FORWARD THIS EMAIL< > > >>>> http://email.learningsciences.com/v/CAi00q0ab0ZT0VBV3T07J08> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> [Learning Sciences International] > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> NOW AVAILABLE! > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Effective assessments based on neuroscience. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Looking to design brain-friendly assessments that deepen students? > > >>>> understanding? Want to fairly assess all students, including > > >>>> English-language learners and those who are homeschooled? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> In Brain-Friendly Assessments< > > >>>> http://email.learningsciences.com/kT0rb0V00Zi03ABTV70b80J>, by > > >>>> bestselling author David A. Sousa empowers teachers with research > > >> findings > > >>>> from educational neuroscience to help determine what, who, where, > and > > >> how > > >>>> to assess?and it?s now available! > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> ORDER NOW< > http://email.learningsciences.com/kT0rb0V00Zi03ABTV70b80J > > > > > >>>> and you can have a copy in your hands this week! > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> ?A powerful book, Brain-Friendly Assessments has informed my > > >>>> instruction as well as assessment. I cannot overstate how > appreciative > > >> I am > > >>>> of the way the author distilled the essence of assessment into > > >>>> student-centered, sensible best practices.? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> ?Alana Margeson, 2012 Maine Teacher of the Year > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Brain-Friendly > > >>>>>> Assessments > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> What They Are and How to Use Them > > >>>>>> [Brain-Friendly Assessments]< > > >>>> > > >> > > > http://education-store.learningsciences.com/product_p/bpp150401.htm?utm_source=bfaannouncementemail&utm_medium=sidebarimagelink&utm_campaign=bssousa > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> [ORDER NOW]< > > >>>> > > >> > > > http://education-store.learningsciences.com/product_p/bpp150401.htm?utm_source=bfaannouncementemail&utm_medium=ordernowbutton&utm_campaign=bssousa > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> LEARNING SCIENCES INTERNATIONAL > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> About Us< > http://email.learningsciences.com/K00T8TA00bZc3sBVi07V0J0> > > >>>> | Research Services< > > >>>> http://email.learningsciences.com/XBb0itA0V000JZ8VT037Td0> | > > Student > > >>>> Surveys > | > > >>>> Publishing< > http://email.learningsciences.com/q7JT0B0Vbv0V8Z03A0if00T> > > | > > >>>> Blog | > > >> Contact > > >>>> Us > > >>>>>> [Facebook]< > > http://email.learningsciences.com/wAVJV8BTb0000i7y00T3i0Z> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> [Twitter]< > http://email.learningsciences.com/R00b8V7ATB0030i0TjJZzV0 > > > > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> [Google +]< > > http://email.learningsciences.com/gk0V8Vb0T307AJ0BT000AZi> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> [Pinterest]< > > http://email.learningsciences.com/hbi7l8A00T000TBZV030JBV > > >>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> This email was sent to SMAGO@UGA.EDU. If > you > > no > > >>>> longer wish to receive these emails you may unsubscribe< > > >>>> http://email.learningsciences.com/u/umV000VA8b0B0C03ZiTTJ70> at any > > >> time. > > >>>>>> 1400 Centrepark Boulevard, Suite 1000 West Palm Beach, Florida > 33401 > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > >> object > > >>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Mar 26 19:35:37 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 11:35:37 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Help With Russian Message-ID: In Chapter One of the Problem of Age Periodization, Vygotsky is trying to "finalize" the chain of critical ages, and argues that birth should be included as a "crisis". He and Blonsky apparently agree here. He writes: ????????????????, ?????????????? ????????? ????? ???? ???????? ? ???? ? ???????, ????? ?????????????, ??????, ?????????? ??????? ? ?????????? ????? ????? (????????), ???????? ???? ????? ? ??? ????? ?????, ?????????? ????????? ?????? ??????????????? ???????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ? ??????????? ??????????? ?????????. I take this means something like: "Catastrophic, leaping changes (i.e. "breaks" or "ruptures", discontinuous changes--DK) in the whole course of development in the act of birth, when the newborn, rapidly entering critically into a completely new environment (Blonsky), transforms the whole structure and the course of his life and defines the beginning period of intra-uterine development as one of the most acute and undoubtedly critical ages. The problem with this translation is that it is utter nonsense, because the beginning period of intra-uterine development is not birth but conception. The Russian collected works (which simply omits Blonsky's name because he is a non-person) just changes ??????????????? ???????? to ???????????? ???????? without any comment at all. (In all fairness the Soviet editors seem to be working with a different manuscript or transcription of this material, and the correction might have been Vygotsky's.) Now, my grasp of Russian grammar is pretty tenuous. But it seems to me it MIGHT be possible to interpret this passage as someting like this: "Catastrophic, leaping changes (i.e. "breaks" or "ruptures", discontinuous changes--DK) in the whole course of development in the act of birth, when the newborn, rapidly entering critically into a completely new environment (Blonsky), transforms the whole structure and the course of his life and defines (i.e. delimits, fixes and puts an end to--DK) the beginning period of intra-uterine development, seem (appear to be--DK) one of the most acute and undoubtedly critical ages." So--once again a question for the infinite patience of the Russophones of the list--is this a reasonable interpretation, or did Vygotsky make a mistake (saying "??????????????? ????????" when he really meant " ???????????? ????????") and did the Soviet editors put him right? David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies My question, for the Russophones on the From nataliag@sfu.ca Thu Mar 26 20:32:51 2015 From: nataliag@sfu.ca (Natalia Gajdamaschko) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 20:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Help With Russian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1999291806.71094027.1427427171628.JavaMail.zimbra@sfu.ca> Hi David, It seems that the para points to more logical usage of "???????????? ????????". I just doubt that Vygotsky was venturing into discussion of intra-uterine development in his theory of development. But I don't know for sure. Cheers, Natalia. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kellogg" To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 7:35:37 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Help With Russian In Chapter One of the Problem of Age Periodization, Vygotsky is trying to "finalize" the chain of critical ages, and argues that birth should be included as a "crisis". He and Blonsky apparently agree here. He writes: ????????????????, ?????????????? ????????? ????? ???? ???????? ? ???? ? ???????, ????? ?????????????, ??????, ?????????? ??????? ? ?????????? ????? ????? (????????), ???????? ???? ????? ? ??? ????? ?????, ?????????? ????????? ?????? ??????????????? ???????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ? ??????????? ??????????? ?????????. I take this means something like: "Catastrophic, leaping changes (i.e. "breaks" or "ruptures", discontinuous changes--DK) in the whole course of development in the act of birth, when the newborn, rapidly entering critically into a completely new environment (Blonsky), transforms the whole structure and the course of his life and defines the beginning period of intra-uterine development as one of the most acute and undoubtedly critical ages. The problem with this translation is that it is utter nonsense, because the beginning period of intra-uterine development is not birth but conception. The Russian collected works (which simply omits Blonsky's name because he is a non-person) just changes ??????????????? ???????? to ???????????? ???????? without any comment at all. (In all fairness the Soviet editors seem to be working with a different manuscript or transcription of this material, and the correction might have been Vygotsky's.) Now, my grasp of Russian grammar is pretty tenuous. But it seems to me it MIGHT be possible to interpret this passage as someting like this: "Catastrophic, leaping changes (i.e. "breaks" or "ruptures", discontinuous changes--DK) in the whole course of development in the act of birth, when the newborn, rapidly entering critically into a completely new environment (Blonsky), transforms the whole structure and the course of his life and defines (i.e. delimits, fixes and puts an end to--DK) the beginning period of intra-uterine development, seem (appear to be--DK) one of the most acute and undoubtedly critical ages." So--once again a question for the infinite patience of the Russophones of the list--is this a reasonable interpretation, or did Vygotsky make a mistake (saying "??????????????? ????????" when he really meant " ???????????? ????????") and did the Soviet editors put him right? David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies My question, for the Russophones on the From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Mar 26 21:16:42 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 21:16:42 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Help With Russian In-Reply-To: <1999291806.71094027.1427427171628.JavaMail.zimbra@sfu.ca> References: <1999291806.71094027.1427427171628.JavaMail.zimbra@sfu.ca> Message-ID: Implantation of the zygote has always seemed to be a great example of a crisis in prenatal development. But if birth is not a crisis for all involved post-natally, hard to think of what might be. Blood flow reverses, oxygen has to come through breathing, nutrients can't flow withhout someone else's (culturally mediated) actions. Whew. A wonder any of us made it this far. mike On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 8:32 PM, Natalia Gajdamaschko wrote: > Hi David, > It seems that the para points to more logical usage of "???????????? > ????????". > I just doubt that Vygotsky was venturing into discussion of intra-uterine > development in his theory of development. But I don't know for sure. > Cheers, > Natalia. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Kellogg" > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 7:35:37 PM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Help With Russian > > In Chapter One of the Problem of Age Periodization, Vygotsky is trying to > "finalize" the chain of critical ages, and argues that birth should be > included as a "crisis". He and Blonsky apparently agree here. He writes: > > ????????????????, ?????????????? ????????? ????? ???? ???????? ? ???? ? > ???????, ????? ?????????????, ??????, ?????????? ??????? ? ?????????? ????? > ????? (????????), ???????? ???? ????? ? ??? ????? ?????, ?????????? > ????????? ?????? ??????????????? ???????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ? > ??????????? ??????????? ?????????. > > I take this means something like: "Catastrophic, leaping changes (i.e. > "breaks" or "ruptures", discontinuous changes--DK) in the whole course of > development in the act of birth, when the newborn, rapidly entering > critically into a completely new environment (Blonsky), transforms the > whole structure and the course of his life and defines the beginning period > of intra-uterine development as one of the most acute and undoubtedly > critical ages. > > > > The problem with this translation is that it is utter nonsense, because the > beginning period of intra-uterine development is not birth but conception. > The > Russian collected works (which simply omits Blonsky's name because he is a > non-person) just changes ??????????????? ???????? to ???????????? ???????? > without any comment at all. (In all fairness the Soviet editors seem to be > working with a different manuscript or transcription of this material, and > the correction might have been Vygotsky's.) > > Now, my grasp of Russian grammar is pretty tenuous. But it seems to me it > MIGHT be possible to interpret this passage as someting like this: > > "Catastrophic, leaping changes (i.e. "breaks" or "ruptures", discontinuous > changes--DK) in the whole course of development in the act of birth, when > the newborn, rapidly entering critically into a completely new environment > (Blonsky), transforms the whole structure and the course of his life and > defines (i.e. delimits, fixes and puts an end to--DK) the beginning period > of intra-uterine development, seem (appear to be--DK) one of the most acute > and undoubtedly critical ages." > > So--once again a question for the infinite patience of the Russophones of > the list--is this a reasonable interpretation, or did Vygotsky make a > mistake (saying "??????????????? ????????" when he really meant " > ???????????? ????????") and did the Soviet editors put him right? > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > My question, for the Russophones on the > > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From smago@uga.edu Fri Mar 27 08:45:44 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 15:45:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: New Scholars Speak Out! In-Reply-To: <6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41bc061549e9b.20150327154419@mail72.atl11.rsgsv.net> References: <6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41bc061549e9b.20150327154419@mail72.atl11.rsgsv.net> Message-ID: From: JoLLE [mailto:jolle=uga.edu@mail72.atl11.rsgsv.net] On Behalf Of JoLLE Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 11:44 AM To: Peter Smagorinsky Subject: New Scholars Speak Out! What's new with JoLLE@UGA? View this email in your browser [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41b/images/image001.png] [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41b/images/e498718b-b816-4e0b-8191-2eba9abdb805.jpg] Scholars Speak Out In her essay, Choreographing the Story, Niki Tulk discusses the ways that she and her students at Parsons work together "to welcome back the body into its place of memory-keeper, life-experiencer, word-shaper." Niki has a M.F.A (Creative Writing) from the New School, and a Masters of Education in Children?s Literature from the University of Georgia. She is currently on part-time faculty at Parsons The New School for Design in New York City, where she teaches writing to undergraduate artists and runs professional development training for New School faculty. Visit JoLLE to read Niki's essay. Interested in Joining JoLLE? All graduate students at UGA are invited to participate as review board members and/or editors of JoLLE. 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Our mailing address is: The University of Georgia 315 Aderhold Hall Athens, GA 30606 Add us to your address book unsubscribe from this list update subscription preferences [Email Marketing Powered by MailChimp] From smago@uga.edu Fri Mar 27 12:56:27 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 19:56:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space Message-ID: Winn's 2015 MCA article was voted as this issue's discussion paper, and in the absence of an opening opining post thus far, I'll try to start the conversation. Maisha is a mid-career African American researcher with a strong dedication to investigating the literacy activities of Black youth. Her paper traces themes that she has explored in 4 projects, each of which yielded a book, from her career stops at Berkeley, New York, Atlanta, and now Madison, Wisconsin (all in the USA). If I can extract one major theme from this work, it's that AA youth who are often characterized as having low literacy are in fact highly interested in language usage and linguistic performance, and immensely skilled and productive in their linguistic lives. Without using a Vygotskian vocabulary, she asserts (and here I provide the Vygotskian terms) that through their use of speech, they elevate their thinking to higher mental processes, although not such that schools can recognize them. And so she explores trajectories that are robust and highly energized, yet that depart from those taught and assessed formally in education. I'll take a detour here to refer to a talk that our mutual friend David Kirkland gave at the National Council of Teachers of English convention last November, in recognition of receiving NCTE's highest research award, the David Russell Award. What follows is taken from a book chapter I've drafted for a collection on adolescent literacy, in which I describe Kirkland's findings. I'll let this stand as my opening conversational turn, in hopes that others will find avenues through which to enter the discussion. I think that what follows is relevant to what Maisha talks about in her article-hardly comprehensively, but I see these issues as undergirding her general perspective on students from (mostly) African American communities who lead rich literacy lives while being assessed in school as being deficient. scores of scholars, many of them from an African American heritage, have expanded on Heath's (1983) findings, investigating African American literacy development in a variety of regions and settings. These scholars (e.g., Kirkland, 2012) have found that although Black students are continually measured to have low and declining literacy rates in school, they live rich lives with print, spoken, and multimodal texts in their teeming literacy lives once outside the tolling of the school bells. Kirkland (2014) makes a key distinction in considering how such opposing conclusions could be found on the same population. School achievement tends to be measured in single-sitting examinations that are based on problems posed by test-makers, with scores computed for statistical manipulation. Ethnographies tend to be conducted outside school over time, with detailed documentation of social and cognitive processes through which self-chosen literacy goals are pursued, often with feedback, affirmation, critique, and other forms of response helping to shape literacy products, including readings. Such studies of urban Black students' literacy activities focus on what the youth consider to be authentic, meaningful processes and products, and typically find that literacy achievement is high, sustained, and of great social value. These literacy practices are characterized by their highly social qualities as youth perform for one another and use texts to position themselves amidst youth culture and others in their environments-a stark contrast to the solitary, detached manner in which their literacy is measured in school assessments. Kirkland (2014) finds a set of related problems associated with relying on conventional school assessment to stand as definitive measures of literacy attainment. First, the literacy problems on which they are tested are not posed by the students. Rather, they are designed by adults paid to generate test problems that meet some psychometric standard for reliability across the whole testing population, often one dominated by middle class students whose practices are more congenial to such testing. This approach of norming answers according to one dominant demographic produces feelings of alienation from the examinations and consequently from school on the part of those from other cultural groups, given that school becomes associated with punitive testing that is indifferent to what the kids find important in their literacy lives. Second, the exams assume that their test items are isomorphic across test-takers; that is, they are premised on the idea that the learning tasks they present to students are understood in the same manner by all within the test-taking population. In particular, the test designers tend to assume that the task as they envision and intend it is in turn taken up by all students in the same fashion in which they offer it. Newman, Griffin, and Cole (1989; cf. Smagorinsky, 2011) refer to this phenomenon as the problem of assuming a task or problem isomorph in which a learning problem is presented to people of different backgrounds in different settings under the assumptions that this standardized procedure will be interpreted identically by all who encounter it, because that is how the designers believe it should work. The likelihood that the tests are constructed in relation to autonomous texts-texts with an inherent meaning that is not subject to reconstruction and instantiation of additional meanings by readers-is highly unlikely, given the dubious nature of the assumption in light of virtually any social or constructivist perspective on textual composition and interpretation (see Nystrand, 1986 for a general critique; and Smagorinsky, 2001, for an elaboration of a cultural theory of reading). Such attention to contexts is not only not available in the standardized world of assessment, it obliterates such matters as "exogenous" or outside factors, particularly poverty, from the calculations, reifying the assumption that the tasks are isomorphic (Berliner, 2014). The ethnographic work assembled by Kirkland (2014), however, demonstrates that literacy practices and tasks are situated and constructed and not amenable to standardized treatment. Finally, school-based definitions of literacy are securely grounded in print, ignoring the vast compositional means available to youth elsewhere. Kirkland (2014) concludes that "As they age, Black males learn literacy less in school and more outside it. This literacy learning is defined less by print et al. and more by a variety of social and cultural assets/flows necessary for achieving meaning and message making important to their lives" (n. p.). As many have noted (e.g., Kajder, 2010), the Black population is one of many social groups in which print literacy serves as but one compositional tool among many in the digital world of the 21st century. What is starkly evident from Kirkland's comparison is the fact that young African Americans who are consistently measured as having low literacy in school assessments are reading and composing texts of great social value once school's out. From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Mar 27 15:16:56 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 07:16:56 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Help With Russian In-Reply-To: References: <1999291806.71094027.1427427171628.JavaMail.zimbra@sfu.ca> Message-ID: Many thanks, Nadja and Mike. Later, Vygotsky categorically rules out the intra-uterine period. Like this: ????????????? ???????? ??????? ????????? ???? ?? ?????????? ????? ???????? ???????? ?? ??? ??????? ???????, ??? ???, ??-??????, ????? ?? ????? ??????????????? ? ????? ???? ? ??????????? ????????? ??????? ??? ??????????? ???????? ??? ???? ?? ?????????? ???????? ? ??????? ???????? ??????? ???????? ?????? ? ??????? ?????????, ??? ???????????? ????? ?????????? ?????? ??? ????????, ??????????? ?????????? ???? ???????????????, ??? ???????????? ? ??????? ???????? ???????? ???????? ???????; ??-??????, ??????, ??? ??? ????????? ??????????????? ? ??????????? ???????? ?????? ????????????, ??????? ????? ?? ????? ??????????????? ? ???????? ????? ?? ???? ?????????. ????????? ?????? ????????? ?????? ? ?????? ?????????????? ???????? ???????, ??? ??? ??????? ????? ??????? ??????????? ? ???? ???????- ??????? ????????, ?? ?? ????? ????????? ????? ?? ???????? ? ???? ??????????? ????? ??? ??, ??? ????????????? ????? ??????? ? ?????? ????????, ?.?. ????? ? ????????????????, ? ????????? ?? ?????????? ???????? ? ???? ?? ???? ?????????. ????????? ??????? ?? ???????????????? ? ?? ???????? ???????? ??? ??????? (??? ???????????? ??????? ?????? ????), ? ???? ???? ? ??????? ???????????????? ? ????????? ???????? ? ???? ??????????? ???????? ???????. ??????? ?????? ????????? ???????? ? ???????????, ??? ?? ??? ? ?????? ????????? ????? ????????, ????????, ?????????? ? ??????????, ???????? ??????????? ??????????????? ???????? ??? ???????? ?????????. (Embryonal development is from child development excluded by us from the scheme of ages in child development for the simple principle that it, first of all, cannot be considered of the same order as the extra-uterine development of the child as a social being as one of the age periods in the history of the development of the child?s personality along with the other periods, because it represents in itself a completely distinct type of development subject to completely different laws other than those which begin with the moment of birth and the development of the child?s personality; secondly because it is studied by itself in the developed science of embryology, which cannot be regarded as a component chapter in pedology. Pedology must take into account such laws and data of the embryonal development of the child during this period as impact post-uterine development, but pedology does not by this include embryology, in the same was as the need to incorporate the laws and data of genetics, i.e. the science of heredity, does not transform genetics into one of the chapters of pedology. Pedology does not study heredity or uterine development as such (these are the subject of special sciences) but only the role and influence of heredity and uterine development in the course of the social development of the child. Therefore, knowledge of elements of genetics and embryology, along with knowledge of the elements of general biology, anatomy, physiology and psychology, are prerequisites for the study of pedology.) So it seems that the Soviet editors are right to change "intra-uterine" to "extra-uterine". Still, they weren't right to do it without a footnote. Perhaps Vygotsky himself changed it, though; the Collected Works manuscript is different in many ways (it is much briefer, for one thing), and it's sometimees hard to believe that it's the same manuscript. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 1:16 PM, mike cole wrote: > Implantation of the zygote has always seemed to be a great example of a > crisis in > prenatal development. But if birth is not a crisis for all involved > post-natally, hard to think of what might be. Blood flow reverses, oxygen > has to come through breathing, nutrients can't flow withhout someone else's > (culturally mediated) actions. > > Whew. A wonder any of us made it this far. > mike > > On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 8:32 PM, Natalia Gajdamaschko > wrote: > > > Hi David, > > It seems that the para points to more logical usage of "???????????? > > ????????". > > I just doubt that Vygotsky was venturing into discussion of intra-uterine > > development in his theory of development. But I don't know for sure. > > Cheers, > > Natalia. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David Kellogg" > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 7:35:37 PM > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Help With Russian > > > > In Chapter One of the Problem of Age Periodization, Vygotsky is trying to > > "finalize" the chain of critical ages, and argues that birth should be > > included as a "crisis". He and Blonsky apparently agree here. He writes: > > > > ????????????????, ?????????????? ????????? ????? ???? ???????? ? ???? ? > > ???????, ????? ?????????????, ??????, ?????????? ??????? ? ?????????? > ????? > > ????? (????????), ???????? ???? ????? ? ??? ????? ?????, ?????????? > > ????????? ?????? ??????????????? ???????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ? > > ??????????? ??????????? ?????????. > > > > I take this means something like: "Catastrophic, leaping changes (i.e. > > "breaks" or "ruptures", discontinuous changes--DK) in the whole course of > > development in the act of birth, when the newborn, rapidly entering > > critically into a completely new environment (Blonsky), transforms the > > whole structure and the course of his life and defines the beginning > period > > of intra-uterine development as one of the most acute and undoubtedly > > critical ages. > > > > > > > > The problem with this translation is that it is utter nonsense, because > the > > beginning period of intra-uterine development is not birth but > conception. > > The > > Russian collected works (which simply omits Blonsky's name because he is > a > > non-person) just changes ??????????????? ???????? to ???????????? > ???????? > > without any comment at all. (In all fairness the Soviet editors seem to > be > > working with a different manuscript or transcription of this material, > and > > the correction might have been Vygotsky's.) > > > > Now, my grasp of Russian grammar is pretty tenuous. But it seems to me it > > MIGHT be possible to interpret this passage as someting like this: > > > > "Catastrophic, leaping changes (i.e. "breaks" or "ruptures", > discontinuous > > changes--DK) in the whole course of development in the act of birth, when > > the newborn, rapidly entering critically into a completely new > environment > > (Blonsky), transforms the whole structure and the course of his life and > > defines (i.e. delimits, fixes and puts an end to--DK) the beginning > period > > of intra-uterine development, seem (appear to be--DK) one of the most > acute > > and undoubtedly critical ages." > > > > So--once again a question for the infinite patience of the Russophones of > > the list--is this a reasonable interpretation, or did Vygotsky make a > > mistake (saying "??????????????? ????????" when he really meant " > > ???????????? ????????") and did the Soviet editors put him right? > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > > > > > My question, for the Russophones on the > > > > > > > -- > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Mar 27 19:47:57 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 02:47:57 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1427510876542.91325@unm.edu> Dear Maisha, Paul, and esteemed others, Paul, thanks for kicking off our discussion of the Maisha's MCA article! As I read it, I respond to a few important things, important to me, anyway. First and foremost is the surging hope and exhilarating rendering of a language practice which falls outside conventional, less accurate renderings of this sophisticated and energetic group (of many other sophisticated and energetic groups) of the human species. Furthermore, I recognize that the social underpinnings of these writing groups could not but encourage these young writers to stand up and say it with heart in a plurality of feeling and intention that creates many circles, weaving support for one another to move their group in a family of upward movements of being and existence. It's very Vygotskian, as Paul points out, even if Maisha doesn't employ our vocabulary, it's there. We can recognize it for its family resemblance. As of late in the LCHC lab, there has been an exciting (at least exciting to me) discussion around the concept of "prefiguration" and Maisha's observations appeared to me a study of prefiguration. Then I remembered, Virginia Woolf in "A Room of One's Own" discusses that the reason there are more women English writers than other kinds of scientists or artists is because of the economics of writing, compared to being a sculptor in bronze, painter in oils, or other artists, or scientists which require a special education, a studio, a laboratory, materials, and a network of friendly gatekeepers who will steward, cultivate, and promote experienced women thinkers. I was reminded by the economics of women writing and of prefiguration in Maisha's article because wielding language only requires paper and pen and the time to sit and write. The Black neighborhood bookstore becomes a sacred womb of words, in which young people can speak out to one another as their own small embryos of literacy, with their elders of yore before, sitting over their shoulders listening to pregnant words of youth, even if they sit only as names on the spines of books, all of them protected by bookshelves from the outside invisible forces whose preferences are to increase prison numbers, not literacies. Prefiguration is the young people living and saying and performing to affirm, "We are just like our elders on the spines on the shelves, over our shoulders, listening as we listen to them and connect to them." What a beautiful emblem a Black bookstore is now in my mind, a garden of youthful minds and hearts prefiguring their futures together. I also consider City Lights in San Francisco, my favorite bookstore on earth, founded by Lawrence Ferlinghetti, a poet. I considered how bookstores _should be_ these active _alive_ spots that are popping in wit and poetry readings, debates, and songs, dedicated to the words of being, and of caring. And more personally, I am also reminiscent of my own creative writing teacher who made us read our embryonic work each week in class, and at the end of the term we published (gave birth to) our work in a cheaply published newsprint 'zine. Then, like guerrilla soldiers by night, we toted our 'zine to every nook and cranny hole-in-the-wall coffee shop and deposited a lovingly rendered stack just inside by the front door, and how liberating it was to paper the world with our words, our meanings. It was the notion that "We did it." Saying it three ways: emphasis on the "we", then emphasis on the "did," then emphasis on the "it." That feeling was present in Maisha's paper too. The only difference is it is in the present tense "We do this." I loved that. Now as I write this, I wonder how this connects to our own experiences on this list, sundry thinkers of the world, discussing the workings of the word and their effects and affects upon our own minds and hearts. I ask: How might we learn from these young writers who forge new identities carefully cut from woven cloths spun from joys of life and lives of joy. Or is this not academic enough? So that's what I got out of it, for what that is worth, which I hope is more than 2?. Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Mar 28 13:51:58 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 13:51:58 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: <1427510876542.91325@unm.edu> References: <1427510876542.91325@unm.edu> Message-ID: Hi Annalisa--- I think you payed compliments to Paul that were intended for Peter. All very biblical! :-)) To me a big question that makes me want to read more of Maisha's work is to better understand how the special teachers, those who were involved in local community literacy practices/values/histories, managed to include them in their public high school classrooms with all of the rules, regulations, standardized testing, etc. that is involved. Does such boundary shattering require exceptional people? or perhaps What are the boundaries to such boundary shattering?? mike On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 7:47 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Dear Maisha, Paul, and esteemed others, > > Paul, thanks for kicking off our discussion of the Maisha's MCA article! > > As I read it, I respond to a few important things, important to me, > anyway. First and foremost is the surging hope and exhilarating rendering > of a language practice which falls outside conventional, less accurate > renderings of this sophisticated and energetic group (of many other > sophisticated and energetic groups) of the human species. > > Furthermore, I recognize that the social underpinnings of these writing > groups could not but encourage these young writers to stand up and say it > with heart in a plurality of feeling and intention that creates many > circles, weaving support for one another to move their group in a family of > upward movements of being and existence. It's very Vygotskian, as Paul > points out, even if Maisha doesn't employ our vocabulary, it's there. > > We can recognize it for its family resemblance. > > As of late in the LCHC lab, there has been an exciting (at least exciting > to me) discussion around the concept of "prefiguration" and Maisha's > observations appeared to me a study of prefiguration. > > Then I remembered, Virginia Woolf in "A Room of One's Own" discusses that > the reason there are more women English writers than other kinds of > scientists or artists is because of the economics of writing, compared to > being a sculptor in bronze, painter in oils, or other artists, or > scientists which require a special education, a studio, a laboratory, > materials, and a network of friendly gatekeepers who will steward, > cultivate, and promote experienced women thinkers. > > I was reminded by the economics of women writing and of prefiguration in > Maisha's article because wielding language only requires paper and pen and > the time to sit and write. The Black neighborhood bookstore becomes a > sacred womb of words, in which young people can speak out to one another as > their own small embryos of literacy, with their elders of yore before, > sitting over their shoulders listening to pregnant words of youth, even if > they sit only as names on the spines of books, all of them protected by > bookshelves from the outside invisible forces whose preferences are to > increase prison numbers, not literacies. Prefiguration is the young people > living and saying and performing to affirm, "We are just like our elders on > the spines on the shelves, over our shoulders, listening as we listen to > them and connect to them." What a beautiful emblem a Black bookstore is now > in my mind, a garden of youthful minds and hearts prefiguring their futures > together. > > I also consider City Lights in San Francisco, my favorite bookstore on > earth, founded by Lawrence Ferlinghetti, a poet. I considered how > bookstores _should be_ these active _alive_ spots that are popping in wit > and poetry readings, debates, and songs, dedicated to the words of being, > and of caring. > > And more personally, I am also reminiscent of my own creative writing > teacher who made us read our embryonic work each week in class, and at the > end of the term we published (gave birth to) our work in a cheaply > published newsprint 'zine. Then, like guerrilla soldiers by night, we toted > our 'zine to every nook and cranny hole-in-the-wall coffee shop and > deposited a lovingly rendered stack just inside by the front door, and how > liberating it was to paper the world with our words, our meanings. > > It was the notion that "We did it." Saying it three ways: emphasis on the > "we", then emphasis on the "did," then emphasis on the "it." That feeling > was present in Maisha's paper too. The only difference is it is in the > present tense "We do this." I loved that. > > Now as I write this, I wonder how this connects to our own experiences on > this list, sundry thinkers of the world, discussing the workings of the > word and their effects and affects upon our own minds and hearts. > > I ask: How might we learn from these young writers who forge new > identities carefully cut from woven cloths spun from joys of life and lives > of joy. Or is this not academic enough? > > So that's what I got out of it, for what that is worth, which I hope is > more than 2?. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Mar 28 14:30:31 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 21:30:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: References: <1427510876542.91325@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1427578230699.26663@unm.edu> Yes, I did intend to say Peter, not Paul, it is near Easter after all! :) To address your question about boundaries, I considered more questions: These are: - What is the purpose of a boundary? - If boundaries are no longer in alignment with goals and aspirations, must they be shattered? - Can these boundaries evolve purposely, constructively, and consciously? (Or must everything be black and white?) Kind regards on a cloudless sunny Saturday in So Cal, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Mar 28 15:40:59 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 15:40:59 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: <1427578230699.26663@unm.edu> References: <1427510876542.91325@unm.edu> <1427578230699.26663@unm.edu> Message-ID: I am not sure how Maisha conceives of the issue, Annalisa. I was just phrasing the question in my own terms. mike On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Yes, I did intend to say Peter, not Paul, it is near Easter after all! :) > > > To address your question about boundaries, I considered more questions: > These are: > > - What is the purpose of a boundary? > > - If boundaries are no longer in alignment with goals and aspirations, > must they be shattered? > > - Can these boundaries evolve purposely, constructively, and consciously? > > (Or must everything be black and white?) > > Kind regards on a cloudless sunny Saturday in So Cal, > > Annalisa > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Mar 28 16:30:34 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 16:30:34 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Education & Society (was Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huw-- Would it be possible to link your observation and conclusion to the question I was posing about Maisha's work? You wrote:....societies such as our do NOT provide schooling that provides a creative understanding, i.e. schooling cannot deliver this true form of education under its manner of administration. This is simply manifest in the dominant role (priority) of the reproduction of notation rather than genuine understanding, which is enforced by society (teaching to test on behalf of 'societal needs'). A good deal of the ideology underpinning the generative activities occurring in community settings requires "true form of education" that run counter to the reproduction of existing relations of social inequality. So how and when and under what conditions can such counter practices be implemented in school settings? The belly of the beast? mike On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 8:42 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > The quote below is from El'konin's (1971) paper, Towards the problem of > stages in the mental development of children > . This is > simply asserting that societies such as ours (UK/US/AUS etc, and Russian > too for this matter) do NOT provide schooling that provides a creative > understanding, i.e. schooling cannot deliver this true form of education > under its manner of administration. This is simply manifest in the > dominant role (priority) of the reproduction of notation rather than > genuine understanding, which is enforced by society (teaching to test on > behalf of 'societal needs'). > > Note that this assertion is not saying that one _develops_ in a manner in > accordance with one's society (i.e. that different forms of society afford > different, but commensurate, forms of development). Rather it is asserting > that development is prevented in certain modes of society. The point, > again, is that development here is referring to structural change in the > cognitive capacity of the child/agent as a key component of developmental > phenomena. > > Huw > > "The correct solution of the problem of developmental periods will in large > measure determine the strategy employed in constructing a comprehensive > educational system for the coming generation in our country. The practical > significance of this problem will increase as we approach the point when we > must elaborate the principles for a unified public system of education > encompassing the entire period of childhood. We must emphasize the fact > that the construction of such a system in compliance with the laws of > developmental stages of childhood is possible only within a socialist > society; for it is only in such a society that has a maximum interest in > the full and harmonious development of the abilities of every one of its > members and, consequently, in the fullest possible use of the potential of > each developmental stage." > > > > On 23 March 2015 at 09:55, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > Of course! > > a > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Rod Parker-Rees wrote: > > > >> The system may work (more or less and more for some than others) but I > >> don't see how it could be described as 'finished', Andy. There is a > >> continuing, lively competition among groups of parents to identify > >> 'better', 'kinder' or just 'faster' ways of supporting their children's > >> development and a thriving market in books, classes, equipment etc. to > >> 'help' parents to do the right thing for their children. There is a lot > of > >> exploitation and misinformation mixed up in this but the continuing play > >> with different ways of doing things is probably beneficial in the longer > >> term as it leavens cultural practices - preventing them from solidifying > >> into a universally approved and prescribed practice which is good enough > >> for most. > >> > >> Rod > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > >> mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > >> Sent: 23 March 2015 00:40 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy > >> > >> I think that cultural forms of child-rearing and the corresponding > >> expectations placed upon the child have been developed by communities > over > >> centuries and part of that process is the collective experience of the > >> relevant practices. Doubtless all sorts of crazy practices have been > tried > >> out at different times, but if the children do not respond as expected, > the > >> idea is dropped or modified. I think this is the point at which the > >> biological limitations and predispositions of children comes in. But the > >> present-day child is presented with a finished, working system. > >> I seem to recall that Barbara Rogoff has written about this. > >> Andy > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > > > > > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Sat Mar 28 18:28:08 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 01:28:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] The Problem with ListServs Message-ID: I have been reflecting on XMCA since a recent hiatus.......... This is a repost of my thoughts from: http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2015/the-problem-with-list-servs-and-connectedlearning List servs work, and work well. That's there major drawback. It is hard to move academics off of a tool that has functioned long before the Web. Yes it comes with the baggage of bad email practices we suffer through at work: Unecessary reply-alls, threads being hijacked, threads getting too long and complex, people replying to older threads with totally new topics, and different formatting. This is all before we consider the complexity of different levels of learners steeped within varying discourses and even languages. Even with these major drawbacks learning gets done. List servs work because distribution discourse works better than destination discourse. Instead of trying to get people to come to your site or join your network the content just comes to you. You decide to reply. As Gina Tripani notes email is truly one of the original federated systems. I want to help move folks off of list servs and on to other more open distribution channels. While it is hard to move people off of tools that work I would like to see groups try new methods. *LRA* As e-editor of the Literacy Research Association we are trying to encourage people to publsih their own content and push through our new websites. Mainly by using the forums. These can be set up just like list servs, your inbox can be flooded as much as you want. So could your RSS feed. *XMCA* The Extended Mind Culture and Activity theory was a MOOC long before that was even a thing. There have been people arguing and seeking consensus over Russian and German translations of words for over a decade. It is the home of Open scholarship on Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Vygotsky, Hegel, Marx and a wonderful group of scholars. It is ripe for a tool like Discourse or Known. I fall in and out of XMCA. It is a list serv that works too well. So I have to hide it in my email client if inbox zero were ever to be reached. I recently bundled XMCA in Google's new inbox tool which means I can see the messages and quickly dismiss them. Its when I need to find an idea again that XMCA gets difficult. It also reads like a Novel. The brilliant thought, often outside of my wheelhouse, makes casual reading impossible. The problem of course is it is email. Searching through email for threads of logic gets hard quick. Discourse I have been playing a bit in discourse with #ccourses and with Mozilla's webmaker (now Mozilla Learning...I think). At first I was hesitant. Not a fan of stackable forums. I like threaded discussions. Showing my age here. But the social, the tagging, and the categories make it ideal for a complex learning space like XMCA. This would be a little more of a closed off space but would resemble the list serv without all of the baggage (until we discover the new luggage that folks travel with in new spaces). I threw together a quick example (using recent emails as an example) on my own site (not sure if log-in required). http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the-literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 XMCA is already installed on a university server. Discourse would be no different. Except better. Known I am just starting to play with Known but I could easily see it be used for distributed discourse. You can quickly push it out to everywhere. If Wordpress is chess, than Known is Othello. Both allow for endless learning but one can begin playing Othello almsot immediately. Basically as community of academics, in places like XMCA and Listserv, we should encourage people to publish on their own sites and syndicate everything to a common hub or space. Known would be just one example. This can be done with any blogging platform. The goal should be to own you own content in a federated web. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Mar 29 08:32:29 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 16:32:29 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Education & Society (was Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Under what conditions can such counter practices be implemented in school settings?" When understanding is valued more than certification. This is Bozhovich's "internal position" and Leontyev's "social standing" (understanding as true generalisation). I don't think this fits a traditional notion of social inequality either. The majority of middle class practices are reliant on notational forms of understanding. Creative understanding is a minority undertaking within "middle" classes -- creative accountancy, banking or lawyering aren't traditionally a desirable outcome, hence their peripheral role in schools. Social classes forced to deal with objective realities are in a better situation for disproving the value of notational forms of understanding. One might say that the "middle class" creatives have gone beyond mere notational forms of knowing to re-engage with objective reality, but that they are equally versed in notational forms albeit with a truer understanding of their meanings. In this sense, the traditional middle classes are equally impoverished. However, they deal with their impoverishment by relying on working class society to provide for their needs by keeping the world requiring more effective ways of knowing at bay. I doubt there are many families born in poverty that would be willing to abandon their contact with that objectivity. Huw On 28 March 2015 at 23:30, mike cole wrote: > Huw-- Would it be possible to link your observation and conclusion to the > question I was posing about Maisha's work? You wrote:....societies such as > our do > NOT provide schooling that provides a creative > understanding, i.e. schooling cannot deliver this true form of education > under its manner of administration. This is simply manifest in the > dominant role (priority) of the reproduction of notation rather than > genuine understanding, which is enforced by society (teaching to test on > behalf of 'societal needs'). > > A good deal of the ideology underpinning the generative activities > occurring in community settings requires "true form of education" that run > counter to the reproduction of existing relations of social inequality. So > how and when and under what conditions can such counter practices be > implemented in school settings? The belly of the beast? > > mike > > > On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 8:42 AM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > The quote below is from El'konin's (1971) paper, Towards the problem of > > stages in the mental development of children > > . This > is > > simply asserting that societies such as ours (UK/US/AUS etc, and Russian > > too for this matter) do NOT provide schooling that provides a creative > > understanding, i.e. schooling cannot deliver this true form of education > > under its manner of administration. This is simply manifest in the > > dominant role (priority) of the reproduction of notation rather than > > genuine understanding, which is enforced by society (teaching to test on > > behalf of 'societal needs'). > > > > Note that this assertion is not saying that one _develops_ in a manner in > > accordance with one's society (i.e. that different forms of society > afford > > different, but commensurate, forms of development). Rather it is > asserting > > that development is prevented in certain modes of society. The point, > > again, is that development here is referring to structural change in the > > cognitive capacity of the child/agent as a key component of developmental > > phenomena. > > > > Huw > > > > "The correct solution of the problem of developmental periods will in > large > > measure determine the strategy employed in constructing a comprehensive > > educational system for the coming generation in our country. The > practical > > significance of this problem will increase as we approach the point when > we > > must elaborate the principles for a unified public system of education > > encompassing the entire period of childhood. We must emphasize the fact > > that the construction of such a system in compliance with the laws of > > developmental stages of childhood is possible only within a socialist > > society; for it is only in such a society that has a maximum interest in > > the full and harmonious development of the abilities of every one of its > > members and, consequently, in the fullest possible use of the potential > of > > each developmental stage." > > > > > > > > On 23 March 2015 at 09:55, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > > Of course! > > > a > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > Rod Parker-Rees wrote: > > > > > >> The system may work (more or less and more for some than others) but I > > >> don't see how it could be described as 'finished', Andy. There is a > > >> continuing, lively competition among groups of parents to identify > > >> 'better', 'kinder' or just 'faster' ways of supporting their > children's > > >> development and a thriving market in books, classes, equipment etc. to > > >> 'help' parents to do the right thing for their children. There is a > lot > > of > > >> exploitation and misinformation mixed up in this but the continuing > play > > >> with different ways of doing things is probably beneficial in the > longer > > >> term as it leavens cultural practices - preventing them from > solidifying > > >> into a universally approved and prescribed practice which is good > enough > > >> for most. > > >> > > >> Rod > > >> > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > > >> mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > > >> Sent: 23 March 2015 00:40 > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy > > >> > > >> I think that cultural forms of child-rearing and the corresponding > > >> expectations placed upon the child have been developed by communities > > over > > >> centuries and part of that process is the collective experience of the > > >> relevant practices. Doubtless all sorts of crazy practices have been > > tried > > >> out at different times, but if the children do not respond as > expected, > > the > > >> idea is dropped or modified. I think this is the point at which the > > >> biological limitations and predispositions of children comes in. But > the > > >> present-day child is presented with a finished, working system. > > >> I seem to recall that Barbara Rogoff has written about this. > > >> Andy > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> *Andy Blunden* > > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Mar 29 09:10:40 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 09:10:40 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Problem with ListServs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When an idea is hard to find again, Greg, I use the google search on the lchc web page. Perhaps we need another one just for the xmca archive? Can xmca be done better? Without a doubt. All it requires is the labor of those who lead the way. Applicants over the age of 75 should be eyed with great suspicion. mike On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 6:28 PM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > I have been reflecting on XMCA since a recent hiatus.......... > > This is a repost of my thoughts > > from: > > http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2015/the-problem-with-list-servs-and-connectedlearning > > List servs work, and work well. That's there major drawback. It is hard to > move academics off of a tool that has functioned long before the Web. > > Yes it comes with the baggage of bad email practices we suffer through at > work: Unecessary reply-alls, threads being hijacked, threads getting too > long and complex, people replying to older threads with totally new topics, > and different formatting. > > This is all before we consider the complexity of different levels of > learners steeped within varying discourses and even languages. > > Even with these major drawbacks learning gets done. > List servs work because distribution discourse works better than > destination discourse. > > Instead of trying to get people to come to your site or join your network > the content just comes to you. You decide to reply. As Gina Tripani notes > email is truly one of the original federated systems. > > I want to help move folks off of list servs and on to other more open > distribution channels. While it is hard to move people off of tools that > work I would like to see groups try new methods. > > *LRA* > > As e-editor of the Literacy Research Association we are trying to encourage > people to publsih their own content and push through our new websites. > Mainly by using the forums. These can be set up just like list servs, your > inbox can be flooded as much as you want. So could your RSS feed. > > *XMCA* > > The Extended Mind Culture and Activity theory was a MOOC long before that > was even a thing. There have been people arguing and seeking consensus over > Russian and German translations of words for over a decade. It is the home > of Open scholarship on Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Vygotsky, > Hegel, Marx and a wonderful group of scholars. > > It is ripe for a tool like Discourse or Known. > > I fall in and out of XMCA. It is a list serv that works too well. So I have > to hide it in my email client if inbox zero were ever to be reached. I > recently bundled XMCA in Google's new inbox tool which means I can see the > messages and quickly dismiss them. > > Its when I need to find an idea again that XMCA gets difficult. > > It also reads like a Novel. The brilliant thought, often outside of my > wheelhouse, makes casual reading impossible. The problem of course is it is > email. Searching through email for threads of logic gets hard quick. > Discourse > > I have been playing a bit in discourse with #ccourses and with Mozilla's > webmaker (now Mozilla Learning...I think). At first I was hesitant. Not a > fan of stackable forums. I like threaded discussions. Showing my age here. > > But the social, the tagging, and the categories make it ideal for a complex > learning space like XMCA. This would be a little more of a closed off space > but would resemble the list serv without all of the baggage (until we > discover the new luggage that folks travel with in new spaces). > > I threw together a quick example > < > http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the-literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 > >(using > recent emails as an example) on my own site (not sure if log-in required). > > http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the-literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 > > XMCA is already installed on a university server. Discourse would be no > different. Except better. > Known > > I am just starting to play with Known but I could easily see it be used for > distributed discourse. You can quickly push it out to everywhere. > > If Wordpress is chess, than Known is Othello. Both allow for endless > learning but one can begin playing Othello almsot immediately. > > Basically as community of academics, in places like XMCA and Listserv, we > should encourage people to publish on their own sites and syndicate > everything to a common hub or space. > > Known would be just one example. This can be done with any blogging > platform. The goal should be to own you own content in a federated web. > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Sun Mar 29 09:19:20 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 16:19:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Problem with ListServs References: Message-ID: Thanks. I never really explored the archives going to check it out. In the past I used XMCA as a novel and meant it. I don't have the pre-requisite background knowledge for many threads and their is a strong expectation for well sourced responses. So in many ways it has served as a secondary source that allows me to return to primary sources with some clarity. So I thank all, regardless of age. As I said the problem with listservs is they work. On Sun, Mar 29, 2015, 12:13 PM mike cole wrote: > When an idea is hard to find again, Greg, I use the google search on the > lchc web page. > Perhaps we need another one just for the xmca archive? > > Can xmca be done better? Without a doubt. All it requires is the labor of > those who lead the way. Applicants over the age of 75 should be eyed with > great suspicion. > > mike > > > > On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 6:28 PM, Greg Mcverry > wrote: > > > I have been reflecting on XMCA since a recent hiatus.......... > > > > This is a repost of my thoughts > > > > from: > > > > http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2015/the- > problem-with-list-servs-and-connectedlearning > > > > List servs work, and work well. That's there major drawback. It is hard > to > > move academics off of a tool that has functioned long before the Web. > > > > Yes it comes with the baggage of bad email practices we suffer through > at > > work: Unecessary reply-alls, threads being hijacked, threads getting too > > long and complex, people replying to older threads with totally new > topics, > > and different formatting. > > > > This is all before we consider the complexity of different levels of > > learners steeped within varying discourses and even languages. > > > > Even with these major drawbacks learning gets done. > > List servs work because distribution discourse works better than > > destination discourse. > > > > Instead of trying to get people to come to your site or join your network > > the content just comes to you. You decide to reply. As Gina Tripani notes > > email is truly one of the original federated systems. > > > > I want to help move folks off of list servs and on to other more open > > distribution channels. While it is hard to move people off of tools that > > work I would like to see groups try new methods. > > > > *LRA* > > > > As e-editor of the Literacy Research Association we are trying to > encourage > > people to publsih their own content and push through our new websites. > > Mainly by using the forums. These can be set up just like list servs, > your > > inbox can be flooded as much as you want. So could your RSS feed. > > > > *XMCA* > > > > The Extended Mind Culture and Activity theory was a MOOC long before that > > was even a thing. There have been people arguing and seeking consensus > over > > Russian and German translations of words for over a decade. It is the > home > > of Open scholarship on Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Vygotsky, > > Hegel, Marx and a wonderful group of scholars. > > > > It is ripe for a tool like Discourse or Known. > > > > I fall in and out of XMCA. It is a list serv that works too well. So I > have > > to hide it in my email client if inbox zero were ever to be reached. I > > recently bundled XMCA in Google's new inbox tool which means I can see > the > > messages and quickly dismiss them. > > > > Its when I need to find an idea again that XMCA gets difficult. > > > > It also reads like a Novel. The brilliant thought, often outside of my > > wheelhouse, makes casual reading impossible. The problem of course is it > is > > email. Searching through email for threads of logic gets hard quick. > > Discourse > > > > I have been playing a bit in discourse with #ccourses and with Mozilla's > > webmaker (now Mozilla Learning...I think). At first I was hesitant. Not a > > fan of stackable forums. I like threaded discussions. Showing my age > here. > > > > But the social, the tagging, and the categories make it ideal for a > complex > > learning space like XMCA. This would be a little more of a closed off > space > > but would resemble the list serv without all of the baggage (until we > > discover the new luggage that folks travel with in new spaces). > > > > I threw together a quick example > > < > > http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the- > literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 > > >(using > > recent emails as an example) on my own site (not sure if log-in > required). > > > > http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the- > literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 > > > > XMCA is already installed on a university server. Discourse would be no > > different. Except better. > > Known > > > > I am just starting to play with Known but I could easily see it be used > for > > distributed discourse. You can quickly push it out to everywhere. > > > > If Wordpress is chess, than Known is Othello. Both allow for endless > > learning but one can begin playing Othello almsot immediately. > > > > Basically as community of academics, in places like XMCA and Listserv, we > > should encourage people to publish on their own sites and syndicate > > everything to a common hub or space. > > > > Known would be just one example. This can be done with any blogging > > platform. The goal should be to own you own content in a federated web. > > > > > > -- > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington > From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Sun Mar 29 03:22:30 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 10:22:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] The Problem with ListServs References: Message-ID: I have two email addresses for the listserv. Apologize if this is duplicate. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Greg Mcverry Date: Sat, Mar 28, 2015, 9:28 PM Subject: The Problem with ListServs To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity I have been reflecting on XMCA since a recent hiatus.......... This is a repost of my thoughts from: http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2015/the-problem-with-list-servs-and-connectedlearning List servs work, and work well. That's there major drawback. It is hard to move academics off of a tool that has functioned long before the Web. Yes it comes with the baggage of bad email practices we suffer through at work: Unecessary reply-alls, threads being hijacked, threads getting too long and complex, people replying to older threads with totally new topics, and different formatting. This is all before we consider the complexity of different levels of learners steeped within varying discourses and even languages. Even with these major drawbacks learning gets done. List servs work because distribution discourse works better than destination discourse. Instead of trying to get people to come to your site or join your network the content just comes to you. You decide to reply. As Gina Tripani notes email is truly one of the original federated systems. I want to help move folks off of list servs and on to other more open distribution channels. While it is hard to move people off of tools that work I would like to see groups try new methods. *LRA* As e-editor of the Literacy Research Association we are trying to encourage people to publsih their own content and push through our new websites. Mainly by using the forums. These can be set up just like list servs, your inbox can be flooded as much as you want. So could your RSS feed. *XMCA* The Extended Mind Culture and Activity theory was a MOOC long before that was even a thing. There have been people arguing and seeking consensus over Russian and German translations of words for over a decade. It is the home of Open scholarship on Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Vygotsky, Hegel, Marx and a wonderful group of scholars. It is ripe for a tool like Discourse or Known. I fall in and out of XMCA. It is a list serv that works too well. So I have to hide it in my email client if inbox zero were ever to be reached. I recently bundled XMCA in Google's new inbox tool which means I can see the messages and quickly dismiss them. Its when I need to find an idea again that XMCA gets difficult. It also reads like a Novel. The brilliant thought, often outside of my wheelhouse, makes casual reading impossible. The problem of course is it is email. Searching through email for threads of logic gets hard quick. Discourse I have been playing a bit in discourse with #ccourses and with Mozilla's webmaker (now Mozilla Learning...I think). At first I was hesitant. Not a fan of stackable forums. I like threaded discussions. Showing my age here. But the social, the tagging, and the categories make it ideal for a complex learning space like XMCA. This would be a little more of a closed off space but would resemble the list serv without all of the baggage (until we discover the new luggage that folks travel with in new spaces). I threw together a quick example (using recent emails as an example) on my own site (not sure if log-in required). http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the-literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 XMCA is already installed on a university server. Discourse would be no different. Except better. Known I am just starting to play with Known but I could easily see it be used for distributed discourse. You can quickly push it out to everywhere. If Wordpress is chess, than Known is Othello. Both allow for endless learning but one can begin playing Othello almsot immediately. Basically as community of academics, in places like XMCA and Listserv, we should encourage people to publish on their own sites and syndicate everything to a common hub or space. Known would be just one example. This can be done with any blogging platform. The goal should be to own you own content in a federated web. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Mar 29 10:44:18 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 10:44:18 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Problem with ListServs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One of the interesting things about xmca, GregMcV, is that no one has expert knowledge on the range of topics that arise. A few people come very close for pretty extensive domains and that blows me away. Its like when I went from a public LA highschool to Oberlin in the late 1950's, and was totally blown away by the level of intellectual depth, breadth, that my peers were capable of. So with xmca. And very little showing off/self aggrandizing. But I would love to see some of the "depth" potential of the discussion deepen. Subect lines are pretty feeble thread/weaving organizers. mike PS- If you are looking for a good novel about a differently virtual community I would strongly recommend *Moby Dick*. Particular impressive when read out loud with another. :-) On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > Thanks. I never really explored the archives going to check it out. > > In the past I used XMCA as a novel and meant it. I don't have the > pre-requisite background knowledge for many threads and their is a strong > expectation for well sourced responses. > > So in many ways it has served as a secondary source that allows me to > return to primary sources with some clarity. > > So I thank all, regardless of age. As I said the problem with listservs is > they work. > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015, 12:13 PM mike cole wrote: > > > When an idea is hard to find again, Greg, I use the google search on the > > lchc web page. > > Perhaps we need another one just for the xmca archive? > > > > Can xmca be done better? Without a doubt. All it requires is the labor of > > those who lead the way. Applicants over the age of 75 should be eyed with > > great suspicion. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 6:28 PM, Greg Mcverry > > wrote: > > > > > I have been reflecting on XMCA since a recent hiatus.......... > > > > > > This is a repost of my thoughts > > > > > > from: > > > > > > http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2015/the- > > problem-with-list-servs-and-connectedlearning > > > > > > List servs work, and work well. That's there major drawback. It is hard > > to > > > move academics off of a tool that has functioned long before the Web. > > > > > > Yes it comes with the baggage of bad email practices we suffer through > > at > > > work: Unecessary reply-alls, threads being hijacked, threads getting > too > > > long and complex, people replying to older threads with totally new > > topics, > > > and different formatting. > > > > > > This is all before we consider the complexity of different levels of > > > learners steeped within varying discourses and even languages. > > > > > > Even with these major drawbacks learning gets done. > > > List servs work because distribution discourse works better than > > > destination discourse. > > > > > > Instead of trying to get people to come to your site or join your > network > > > the content just comes to you. You decide to reply. As Gina Tripani > notes > > > email is truly one of the original federated systems. > > > > > > I want to help move folks off of list servs and on to other more open > > > distribution channels. While it is hard to move people off of tools > that > > > work I would like to see groups try new methods. > > > > > > *LRA* > > > > > > As e-editor of the Literacy Research Association we are trying to > > encourage > > > people to publsih their own content and push through our new websites. > > > Mainly by using the forums. These can be set up just like list servs, > > your > > > inbox can be flooded as much as you want. So could your RSS feed. > > > > > > *XMCA* > > > > > > The Extended Mind Culture and Activity theory was a MOOC long before > that > > > was even a thing. There have been people arguing and seeking consensus > > over > > > Russian and German translations of words for over a decade. It is the > > home > > > of Open scholarship on Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Vygotsky, > > > Hegel, Marx and a wonderful group of scholars. > > > > > > It is ripe for a tool like Discourse or Known. > > > > > > I fall in and out of XMCA. It is a list serv that works too well. So I > > have > > > to hide it in my email client if inbox zero were ever to be reached. I > > > recently bundled XMCA in Google's new inbox tool which means I can see > > the > > > messages and quickly dismiss them. > > > > > > Its when I need to find an idea again that XMCA gets difficult. > > > > > > It also reads like a Novel. The brilliant thought, often outside of my > > > wheelhouse, makes casual reading impossible. The problem of course is > it > > is > > > email. Searching through email for threads of logic gets hard quick. > > > Discourse > > > > > > I have been playing a bit in discourse with #ccourses and with > Mozilla's > > > webmaker (now Mozilla Learning...I think). At first I was hesitant. > Not a > > > fan of stackable forums. I like threaded discussions. Showing my age > > here. > > > > > > But the social, the tagging, and the categories make it ideal for a > > complex > > > learning space like XMCA. This would be a little more of a closed off > > space > > > but would resemble the list serv without all of the baggage (until we > > > discover the new luggage that folks travel with in new spaces). > > > > > > I threw together a quick example > > > < > > > http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the- > > literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 > > > >(using > > > recent emails as an example) on my own site (not sure if log-in > > required). > > > > > > http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the- > > literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 > > > > > > XMCA is already installed on a university server. Discourse would be no > > > different. Except better. > > > Known > > > > > > I am just starting to play with Known but I could easily see it be used > > for > > > distributed discourse. You can quickly push it out to everywhere. > > > > > > If Wordpress is chess, than Known is Othello. Both allow for endless > > > learning but one can begin playing Othello almsot immediately. > > > > > > Basically as community of academics, in places like XMCA and Listserv, > we > > > should encourage people to publish on their own sites and syndicate > > > everything to a common hub or space. > > > > > > Known would be just one example. This can be done with any blogging > > > platform. The goal should be to own you own content in a federated web. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. > Waddington > > > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Mar 29 10:47:23 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 10:47:23 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Problem with ListServs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, I am seeing this out of sequence and it takes me to the discussion of Maisha Winn's "auto review" of a sequence of her books. So its a thread gatherer. And it reminds me to ask Peter a question! How would you like us to use this facility? mike On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 3:22 AM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > I have two email addresses for the listserv. Apologize if this is > duplicate. > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Greg Mcverry > Date: Sat, Mar 28, 2015, 9:28 PM > Subject: The Problem with ListServs > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > I have been reflecting on XMCA since a recent hiatus.......... > > This is a repost of my thoughts > > from: > > http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2015/the-problem-with-list-servs-and-connectedlearning > > List servs work, and work well. That's there major drawback. It is hard to > move academics off of a tool that has functioned long before the Web. > > Yes it comes with the baggage of bad email practices we suffer through at > work: Unecessary reply-alls, threads being hijacked, threads getting too > long and complex, people replying to older threads with totally new topics, > and different formatting. > > This is all before we consider the complexity of different levels of > learners steeped within varying discourses and even languages. > > Even with these major drawbacks learning gets done. > List servs work because distribution discourse works better than > destination discourse. > > Instead of trying to get people to come to your site or join your network > the content just comes to you. You decide to reply. As Gina Tripani notes > email is truly one of the original federated systems. > > I want to help move folks off of list servs and on to other more open > distribution channels. While it is hard to move people off of tools that > work I would like to see groups try new methods. > > *LRA* > > As e-editor of the Literacy Research Association we are trying to encourage > people to publsih their own content and push through our new websites. > Mainly by using the forums. These can be set up just like list servs, your > inbox can be flooded as much as you want. So could your RSS feed. > > *XMCA* > > The Extended Mind Culture and Activity theory was a MOOC long before that > was even a thing. There have been people arguing and seeking consensus over > Russian and German translations of words for over a decade. It is the home > of Open scholarship on Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Vygotsky, > Hegel, Marx and a wonderful group of scholars. > > It is ripe for a tool like Discourse or Known. > > I fall in and out of XMCA. It is a list serv that works too well. So I have > to hide it in my email client if inbox zero were ever to be reached. I > recently bundled XMCA in Google's new inbox tool which means I can see the > messages and quickly dismiss them. > > Its when I need to find an idea again that XMCA gets difficult. > > It also reads like a Novel. The brilliant thought, often outside of my > wheelhouse, makes casual reading impossible. The problem of course is it is > email. Searching through email for threads of logic gets hard quick. > Discourse > > I have been playing a bit in discourse with #ccourses and with Mozilla's > webmaker (now Mozilla Learning...I think). At first I was hesitant. Not a > fan of stackable forums. I like threaded discussions. Showing my age here. > > But the social, the tagging, and the categories make it ideal for a complex > learning space like XMCA. This would be a little more of a closed off space > but would resemble the list serv without all of the baggage (until we > discover the new luggage that folks travel with in new spaces). > > I threw together a quick example > < > http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the-literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 > >(using > recent emails as an example) on my own site (not sure if log-in required). > > http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the-literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 > > XMCA is already installed on a university server. Discourse would be no > different. Except better. > Known > > I am just starting to play with Known but I could easily see it be used for > distributed discourse. You can quickly push it out to everywhere. > > If Wordpress is chess, than Known is Othello. Both allow for endless > learning but one can begin playing Othello almsot immediately. > > Basically as community of academics, in places like XMCA and Listserv, we > should encourage people to publish on their own sites and syndicate > everything to a common hub or space. > > Known would be just one example. This can be done with any blogging > platform. The goal should be to own you own content in a federated web. > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Mar 29 10:47:23 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 10:47:23 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Problem with ListServs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, I am seeing this out of sequence and it takes me to the discussion of Maisha Winn's "auto review" of a sequence of her books. So its a thread gatherer. And it reminds me to ask Peter a question! How would you like us to use this facility? mike On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 3:22 AM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > I have two email addresses for the listserv. Apologize if this is > duplicate. > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Greg Mcverry > Date: Sat, Mar 28, 2015, 9:28 PM > Subject: The Problem with ListServs > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > I have been reflecting on XMCA since a recent hiatus.......... > > This is a repost of my thoughts > > from: > > http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2015/the-problem-with-list-servs-and-connectedlearning > > List servs work, and work well. That's there major drawback. It is hard to > move academics off of a tool that has functioned long before the Web. > > Yes it comes with the baggage of bad email practices we suffer through at > work: Unecessary reply-alls, threads being hijacked, threads getting too > long and complex, people replying to older threads with totally new topics, > and different formatting. > > This is all before we consider the complexity of different levels of > learners steeped within varying discourses and even languages. > > Even with these major drawbacks learning gets done. > List servs work because distribution discourse works better than > destination discourse. > > Instead of trying to get people to come to your site or join your network > the content just comes to you. You decide to reply. As Gina Tripani notes > email is truly one of the original federated systems. > > I want to help move folks off of list servs and on to other more open > distribution channels. While it is hard to move people off of tools that > work I would like to see groups try new methods. > > *LRA* > > As e-editor of the Literacy Research Association we are trying to encourage > people to publsih their own content and push through our new websites. > Mainly by using the forums. These can be set up just like list servs, your > inbox can be flooded as much as you want. So could your RSS feed. > > *XMCA* > > The Extended Mind Culture and Activity theory was a MOOC long before that > was even a thing. There have been people arguing and seeking consensus over > Russian and German translations of words for over a decade. It is the home > of Open scholarship on Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Vygotsky, > Hegel, Marx and a wonderful group of scholars. > > It is ripe for a tool like Discourse or Known. > > I fall in and out of XMCA. It is a list serv that works too well. So I have > to hide it in my email client if inbox zero were ever to be reached. I > recently bundled XMCA in Google's new inbox tool which means I can see the > messages and quickly dismiss them. > > Its when I need to find an idea again that XMCA gets difficult. > > It also reads like a Novel. The brilliant thought, often outside of my > wheelhouse, makes casual reading impossible. The problem of course is it is > email. Searching through email for threads of logic gets hard quick. > Discourse > > I have been playing a bit in discourse with #ccourses and with Mozilla's > webmaker (now Mozilla Learning...I think). At first I was hesitant. Not a > fan of stackable forums. I like threaded discussions. Showing my age here. > > But the social, the tagging, and the categories make it ideal for a complex > learning space like XMCA. This would be a little more of a closed off space > but would resemble the list serv without all of the baggage (until we > discover the new luggage that folks travel with in new spaces). > > I threw together a quick example > < > http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the-literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 > >(using > recent emails as an example) on my own site (not sure if log-in required). > > http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the-literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 > > XMCA is already installed on a university server. Discourse would be no > different. Except better. > Known > > I am just starting to play with Known but I could easily see it be used for > distributed discourse. You can quickly push it out to everywhere. > > If Wordpress is chess, than Known is Othello. Both allow for endless > learning but one can begin playing Othello almsot immediately. > > Basically as community of academics, in places like XMCA and Listserv, we > should encourage people to publish on their own sites and syndicate > everything to a common hub or space. > > Known would be just one example. This can be done with any blogging > platform. The goal should be to own you own content in a federated web. > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Sun Mar 29 10:53:41 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 17:53:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Problem with ListServs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do you mean the emoji version of Moby Dick?: http://www.emojidick.com/ On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 1:50 PM mike cole wrote: > OK, I am seeing this out of sequence and it takes me to the discussion of > Maisha Winn's "auto review" of a sequence of her books. So its a thread > gatherer. And it reminds me to ask Peter a question! > > How would you like us to use this facility? > mike > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 3:22 AM, Greg Mcverry > wrote: > > > I have two email addresses for the listserv. Apologize if this is > > duplicate. > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > > From: Greg Mcverry > > Date: Sat, Mar 28, 2015, 9:28 PM > > Subject: The Problem with ListServs > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > I have been reflecting on XMCA since a recent hiatus.......... > > > > This is a repost of my thoughts > > > > from: > > > > http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2015/the- > problem-with-list-servs-and-connectedlearning > > > > List servs work, and work well. That's there major drawback. It is hard > to > > move academics off of a tool that has functioned long before the Web. > > > > Yes it comes with the baggage of bad email practices we suffer through > at > > work: Unecessary reply-alls, threads being hijacked, threads getting too > > long and complex, people replying to older threads with totally new > topics, > > and different formatting. > > > > This is all before we consider the complexity of different levels of > > learners steeped within varying discourses and even languages. > > > > Even with these major drawbacks learning gets done. > > List servs work because distribution discourse works better than > > destination discourse. > > > > Instead of trying to get people to come to your site or join your network > > the content just comes to you. You decide to reply. As Gina Tripani notes > > email is truly one of the original federated systems. > > > > I want to help move folks off of list servs and on to other more open > > distribution channels. While it is hard to move people off of tools that > > work I would like to see groups try new methods. > > > > *LRA* > > > > As e-editor of the Literacy Research Association we are trying to > encourage > > people to publsih their own content and push through our new websites. > > Mainly by using the forums. These can be set up just like list servs, > your > > inbox can be flooded as much as you want. So could your RSS feed. > > > > *XMCA* > > > > The Extended Mind Culture and Activity theory was a MOOC long before that > > was even a thing. There have been people arguing and seeking consensus > over > > Russian and German translations of words for over a decade. It is the > home > > of Open scholarship on Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Vygotsky, > > Hegel, Marx and a wonderful group of scholars. > > > > It is ripe for a tool like Discourse or Known. > > > > I fall in and out of XMCA. It is a list serv that works too well. So I > have > > to hide it in my email client if inbox zero were ever to be reached. I > > recently bundled XMCA in Google's new inbox tool which means I can see > the > > messages and quickly dismiss them. > > > > Its when I need to find an idea again that XMCA gets difficult. > > > > It also reads like a Novel. The brilliant thought, often outside of my > > wheelhouse, makes casual reading impossible. The problem of course is it > is > > email. Searching through email for threads of logic gets hard quick. > > Discourse > > > > I have been playing a bit in discourse with #ccourses and with Mozilla's > > webmaker (now Mozilla Learning...I think). At first I was hesitant. Not a > > fan of stackable forums. I like threaded discussions. Showing my age > here. > > > > But the social, the tagging, and the categories make it ideal for a > complex > > learning space like XMCA. This would be a little more of a closed off > space > > but would resemble the list serv without all of the baggage (until we > > discover the new luggage that folks travel with in new spaces). > > > > I threw together a quick example > > < > > http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the- > literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 > > >(using > > recent emails as an example) on my own site (not sure if log-in > required). > > > > http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the- > literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 > > > > XMCA is already installed on a university server. Discourse would be no > > different. Except better. > > Known > > > > I am just starting to play with Known but I could easily see it be used > for > > distributed discourse. You can quickly push it out to everywhere. > > > > If Wordpress is chess, than Known is Othello. Both allow for endless > > learning but one can begin playing Othello almsot immediately. > > > > Basically as community of academics, in places like XMCA and Listserv, we > > should encourage people to publish on their own sites and syndicate > > everything to a common hub or space. > > > > Known would be just one example. This can be done with any blogging > > platform. The goal should be to own you own content in a federated web. > > > > > > -- > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington > From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Sun Mar 29 10:53:41 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 17:53:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Problem with ListServs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do you mean the emoji version of Moby Dick?: http://www.emojidick.com/ On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 1:50 PM mike cole wrote: > OK, I am seeing this out of sequence and it takes me to the discussion of > Maisha Winn's "auto review" of a sequence of her books. So its a thread > gatherer. And it reminds me to ask Peter a question! > > How would you like us to use this facility? > mike > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 3:22 AM, Greg Mcverry > wrote: > > > I have two email addresses for the listserv. Apologize if this is > > duplicate. > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > > From: Greg Mcverry > > Date: Sat, Mar 28, 2015, 9:28 PM > > Subject: The Problem with ListServs > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > I have been reflecting on XMCA since a recent hiatus.......... > > > > This is a repost of my thoughts > > > > from: > > > > http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2015/the- > problem-with-list-servs-and-connectedlearning > > > > List servs work, and work well. That's there major drawback. It is hard > to > > move academics off of a tool that has functioned long before the Web. > > > > Yes it comes with the baggage of bad email practices we suffer through > at > > work: Unecessary reply-alls, threads being hijacked, threads getting too > > long and complex, people replying to older threads with totally new > topics, > > and different formatting. > > > > This is all before we consider the complexity of different levels of > > learners steeped within varying discourses and even languages. > > > > Even with these major drawbacks learning gets done. > > List servs work because distribution discourse works better than > > destination discourse. > > > > Instead of trying to get people to come to your site or join your network > > the content just comes to you. You decide to reply. As Gina Tripani notes > > email is truly one of the original federated systems. > > > > I want to help move folks off of list servs and on to other more open > > distribution channels. While it is hard to move people off of tools that > > work I would like to see groups try new methods. > > > > *LRA* > > > > As e-editor of the Literacy Research Association we are trying to > encourage > > people to publsih their own content and push through our new websites. > > Mainly by using the forums. These can be set up just like list servs, > your > > inbox can be flooded as much as you want. So could your RSS feed. > > > > *XMCA* > > > > The Extended Mind Culture and Activity theory was a MOOC long before that > > was even a thing. There have been people arguing and seeking consensus > over > > Russian and German translations of words for over a decade. It is the > home > > of Open scholarship on Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Vygotsky, > > Hegel, Marx and a wonderful group of scholars. > > > > It is ripe for a tool like Discourse or Known. > > > > I fall in and out of XMCA. It is a list serv that works too well. So I > have > > to hide it in my email client if inbox zero were ever to be reached. I > > recently bundled XMCA in Google's new inbox tool which means I can see > the > > messages and quickly dismiss them. > > > > Its when I need to find an idea again that XMCA gets difficult. > > > > It also reads like a Novel. The brilliant thought, often outside of my > > wheelhouse, makes casual reading impossible. The problem of course is it > is > > email. Searching through email for threads of logic gets hard quick. > > Discourse > > > > I have been playing a bit in discourse with #ccourses and with Mozilla's > > webmaker (now Mozilla Learning...I think). At first I was hesitant. Not a > > fan of stackable forums. I like threaded discussions. Showing my age > here. > > > > But the social, the tagging, and the categories make it ideal for a > complex > > learning space like XMCA. This would be a little more of a closed off > space > > but would resemble the list serv without all of the baggage (until we > > discover the new luggage that folks travel with in new spaces). > > > > I threw together a quick example > > < > > http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the- > literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 > > >(using > > recent emails as an example) on my own site (not sure if log-in > required). > > > > http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the- > literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 > > > > XMCA is already installed on a university server. Discourse would be no > > different. Except better. > > Known > > > > I am just starting to play with Known but I could easily see it be used > for > > distributed discourse. You can quickly push it out to everywhere. > > > > If Wordpress is chess, than Known is Othello. Both allow for endless > > learning but one can begin playing Othello almsot immediately. > > > > Basically as community of academics, in places like XMCA and Listserv, we > > should encourage people to publish on their own sites and syndicate > > everything to a common hub or space. > > > > Known would be just one example. This can be done with any blogging > > platform. The goal should be to own you own content in a federated web. > > > > > > -- > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Mar 29 10:56:56 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 10:56:56 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Peter--- Thanks to Greg McV's mediation :-)) I wanted to ask you the question I have been asking on the list in general but not getting much help with ( or not understanding much of the help I was getting!). You write at the end of your summary of Maisha's narrative, *And so she explores trajectories that are robust and highly energized, yet that depart from those taught and assessed formally in education.* So here is my question in a nutshell. The big lesson i took from Maisha's trajectory of work was not only that there is a vibrant, literate, cultural thriving alongside of school failure, there are teachers with lives in both worlds who appear to be able to bridge those worlds for the kids so that schooling makes sense, has its uses and interpretations, in two worlds. (This is always true of teaching/learning in my view, but it is very marked here in many socially significant ways). Others have failed where several of the people who play a central role in Maish'a narrative succeed. What are the generalizable lessons we can take from these examples. I did not see this so much a question of trajectories, at least in this narrative. That is probably my lack of expertise in this line of current literacy work. mike On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 12:56 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Winn's 2015 MCA article was voted as this issue's discussion paper, and in > the absence of an opening opining post thus far, I'll try to start the > conversation. > > Maisha is a mid-career African American researcher with a strong > dedication to investigating the literacy activities of Black youth. Her > paper traces themes that she has explored in 4 projects, each of which > yielded a book, from her career stops at Berkeley, New York, Atlanta, and > now Madison, Wisconsin (all in the USA). If I can extract one major theme > from this work, it's that AA youth who are often characterized as having > low literacy are in fact highly interested in language usage and linguistic > performance, and immensely skilled and productive in their linguistic > lives. Without using a Vygotskian vocabulary, she asserts (and here I > provide the Vygotskian terms) that through their use of speech, they > elevate their thinking to higher mental processes, although not such that > schools can recognize them. And so she explores trajectories that are > robust and highly energized, yet that depart from those taught and assessed > formally in education. > > I'll take a detour here to refer to a talk that our mutual friend David > Kirkland gave at the National Council of Teachers of English convention > last November, in recognition of receiving NCTE's highest research award, > the David Russell Award. What follows is taken from a book chapter I've > drafted for a collection on adolescent literacy, in which I describe > Kirkland's findings. I'll let this stand as my opening conversational turn, > in hopes that others will find avenues through which to enter the > discussion. I think that what follows is relevant to what Maisha talks > about in her article-hardly comprehensively, but I see these issues as > undergirding her general perspective on students from (mostly) African > American communities who lead rich literacy lives while being assessed in > school as being deficient. > > scores of scholars, many of them from an African American heritage, have > expanded on Heath's (1983) findings, investigating African American > literacy development in a variety of regions and settings. These scholars > (e.g., Kirkland, 2012) have found that although Black students are > continually measured to have low and declining literacy rates in school, > they live rich lives with print, spoken, and multimodal texts in their > teeming literacy lives once outside the tolling of the school bells. > Kirkland (2014) makes a key distinction in considering how such opposing > conclusions could be found on the same population. School achievement tends > to be measured in single-sitting examinations that are based on problems > posed by test-makers, with scores computed for statistical manipulation. > Ethnographies tend to be conducted outside school over time, with detailed > documentation of social and cognitive processes through which self-chosen > literacy goals are pursued, often with feedback, affirmation, critique, and > other forms of response helping to shape literacy products, including > readings. Such studies of urban Black students' literacy activities focus > on what the youth consider to be authentic, meaningful processes and > products, and typically find that literacy achievement is high, sustained, > and of great social value. These literacy practices are characterized by > their highly social qualities as youth perform for one another and use > texts to position themselves amidst youth culture and others in their > environments-a stark contrast to the solitary, detached manner in which > their literacy is measured in school assessments. > Kirkland (2014) finds a set of related problems associated with relying on > conventional school assessment to stand as definitive measures of literacy > attainment. First, the literacy problems on which they are tested are not > posed by the students. Rather, they are designed by adults paid to generate > test problems that meet some psychometric standard for reliability across > the whole testing population, often one dominated by middle class students > whose practices are more congenial to such testing. This approach of > norming answers according to one dominant demographic produces feelings of > alienation from the examinations and consequently from school on the part > of those from other cultural groups, given that school becomes associated > with punitive testing that is indifferent to what the kids find important > in their literacy lives. > Second, the exams assume that their test items are isomorphic across > test-takers; that is, they are premised on the idea that the learning tasks > they present to students are understood in the same manner by all within > the test-taking population. In particular, the test designers tend to > assume that the task as they envision and intend it is in turn taken up by > all students in the same fashion in which they offer it. Newman, Griffin, > and Cole (1989; cf. Smagorinsky, 2011) refer to this phenomenon as the > problem of assuming a task or problem isomorph in which a learning problem > is presented to people of different backgrounds in different settings under > the assumptions that this standardized procedure will be interpreted > identically by all who encounter it, because that is how the designers > believe it should work. The likelihood that the tests are constructed in > relation to autonomous texts-texts with an inherent meaning that is not > subject to reconstruction and instantiation of additional meanings by > readers-is highly unlikely, given the dubious nature of the assumption in > light of virtually any social or constructivist perspective on textual > composition and interpretation (see Nystrand, 1986 for a general critique; > and Smagorinsky, 2001, for an elaboration of a cultural theory of reading). > Such attention to contexts is not only not available in the standardized > world of assessment, it obliterates such matters as "exogenous" or outside > factors, particularly poverty, from the calculations, reifying the > assumption that the tasks are isomorphic (Berliner, 2014). The ethnographic > work assembled by Kirkland (2014), however, demonstrates that literacy > practices and tasks are situated and constructed and not amenable to > standardized treatment. > Finally, school-based definitions of literacy are securely grounded in > print, ignoring the vast compositional means available to youth elsewhere. > Kirkland (2014) concludes that "As they age, Black males learn literacy > less in school and more outside it. This literacy learning is defined less > by print et al. and more by a variety of social and cultural assets/flows > necessary for achieving meaning and message making important to their > lives" (n. p.). As many have noted (e.g., Kajder, 2010), the Black > population is one of many social groups in which print literacy serves as > but one compositional tool among many in the digital world of the 21st > century. What is starkly evident from Kirkland's comparison is the fact > that young African Americans who are consistently measured as having low > literacy in school assessments are reading and composing texts of great > social value once school's out. > > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Mar 29 11:01:16 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 11:01:16 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Problem with ListServs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Re Moby Dick? No. I mean't just the boring old fashioned kind in a beat up, too thick, paperback edition that cost perhaps 5$ new, back then before you realized it was more than a task they made you do in college. Something endearing about dog ears for some of us. :-) mike On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > Do you mean the emoji version of Moby Dick?: http://www.emojidick.com/ > > > > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 1:50 PM mike cole wrote: > > > OK, I am seeing this out of sequence and it takes me to the discussion of > > Maisha Winn's "auto review" of a sequence of her books. So its a thread > > gatherer. And it reminds me to ask Peter a question! > > > > How would you like us to use this facility? > > mike > > > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 3:22 AM, Greg Mcverry > > wrote: > > > > > I have two email addresses for the listserv. Apologize if this is > > > duplicate. > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > > > From: Greg Mcverry > > > Date: Sat, Mar 28, 2015, 9:28 PM > > > Subject: The Problem with ListServs > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > > > > I have been reflecting on XMCA since a recent hiatus.......... > > > > > > This is a repost of my thoughts > > > > > > from: > > > > > > http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2015/the- > > problem-with-list-servs-and-connectedlearning > > > > > > List servs work, and work well. That's there major drawback. It is hard > > to > > > move academics off of a tool that has functioned long before the Web. > > > > > > Yes it comes with the baggage of bad email practices we suffer through > > at > > > work: Unecessary reply-alls, threads being hijacked, threads getting > too > > > long and complex, people replying to older threads with totally new > > topics, > > > and different formatting. > > > > > > This is all before we consider the complexity of different levels of > > > learners steeped within varying discourses and even languages. > > > > > > Even with these major drawbacks learning gets done. > > > List servs work because distribution discourse works better than > > > destination discourse. > > > > > > Instead of trying to get people to come to your site or join your > network > > > the content just comes to you. You decide to reply. As Gina Tripani > notes > > > email is truly one of the original federated systems. > > > > > > I want to help move folks off of list servs and on to other more open > > > distribution channels. While it is hard to move people off of tools > that > > > work I would like to see groups try new methods. > > > > > > *LRA* > > > > > > As e-editor of the Literacy Research Association we are trying to > > encourage > > > people to publsih their own content and push through our new websites. > > > Mainly by using the forums. These can be set up just like list servs, > > your > > > inbox can be flooded as much as you want. So could your RSS feed. > > > > > > *XMCA* > > > > > > The Extended Mind Culture and Activity theory was a MOOC long before > that > > > was even a thing. There have been people arguing and seeking consensus > > over > > > Russian and German translations of words for over a decade. It is the > > home > > > of Open scholarship on Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Vygotsky, > > > Hegel, Marx and a wonderful group of scholars. > > > > > > It is ripe for a tool like Discourse or Known. > > > > > > I fall in and out of XMCA. It is a list serv that works too well. So I > > have > > > to hide it in my email client if inbox zero were ever to be reached. I > > > recently bundled XMCA in Google's new inbox tool which means I can see > > the > > > messages and quickly dismiss them. > > > > > > Its when I need to find an idea again that XMCA gets difficult. > > > > > > It also reads like a Novel. The brilliant thought, often outside of my > > > wheelhouse, makes casual reading impossible. The problem of course is > it > > is > > > email. Searching through email for threads of logic gets hard quick. > > > Discourse > > > > > > I have been playing a bit in discourse with #ccourses and with > Mozilla's > > > webmaker (now Mozilla Learning...I think). At first I was hesitant. > Not a > > > fan of stackable forums. I like threaded discussions. Showing my age > > here. > > > > > > But the social, the tagging, and the categories make it ideal for a > > complex > > > learning space like XMCA. This would be a little more of a closed off > > space > > > but would resemble the list serv without all of the baggage (until we > > > discover the new luggage that folks travel with in new spaces). > > > > > > I threw together a quick example > > > < > > > http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the- > > literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 > > > >(using > > > recent emails as an example) on my own site (not sure if log-in > > required). > > > > > > http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the- > > literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 > > > > > > XMCA is already installed on a university server. Discourse would be no > > > different. Except better. > > > Known > > > > > > I am just starting to play with Known but I could easily see it be used > > for > > > distributed discourse. You can quickly push it out to everywhere. > > > > > > If Wordpress is chess, than Known is Othello. Both allow for endless > > > learning but one can begin playing Othello almsot immediately. > > > > > > Basically as community of academics, in places like XMCA and Listserv, > we > > > should encourage people to publish on their own sites and syndicate > > > everything to a common hub or space. > > > > > > Known would be just one example. This can be done with any blogging > > > platform. The goal should be to own you own content in a federated web. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. > Waddington > > > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Mar 29 11:01:16 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 11:01:16 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Problem with ListServs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Re Moby Dick? No. I mean't just the boring old fashioned kind in a beat up, too thick, paperback edition that cost perhaps 5$ new, back then before you realized it was more than a task they made you do in college. Something endearing about dog ears for some of us. :-) mike On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > Do you mean the emoji version of Moby Dick?: http://www.emojidick.com/ > > > > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 1:50 PM mike cole wrote: > > > OK, I am seeing this out of sequence and it takes me to the discussion of > > Maisha Winn's "auto review" of a sequence of her books. So its a thread > > gatherer. And it reminds me to ask Peter a question! > > > > How would you like us to use this facility? > > mike > > > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 3:22 AM, Greg Mcverry > > wrote: > > > > > I have two email addresses for the listserv. Apologize if this is > > > duplicate. > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > > > From: Greg Mcverry > > > Date: Sat, Mar 28, 2015, 9:28 PM > > > Subject: The Problem with ListServs > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > > > > I have been reflecting on XMCA since a recent hiatus.......... > > > > > > This is a repost of my thoughts > > > > > > from: > > > > > > http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2015/the- > > problem-with-list-servs-and-connectedlearning > > > > > > List servs work, and work well. That's there major drawback. It is hard > > to > > > move academics off of a tool that has functioned long before the Web. > > > > > > Yes it comes with the baggage of bad email practices we suffer through > > at > > > work: Unecessary reply-alls, threads being hijacked, threads getting > too > > > long and complex, people replying to older threads with totally new > > topics, > > > and different formatting. > > > > > > This is all before we consider the complexity of different levels of > > > learners steeped within varying discourses and even languages. > > > > > > Even with these major drawbacks learning gets done. > > > List servs work because distribution discourse works better than > > > destination discourse. > > > > > > Instead of trying to get people to come to your site or join your > network > > > the content just comes to you. You decide to reply. As Gina Tripani > notes > > > email is truly one of the original federated systems. > > > > > > I want to help move folks off of list servs and on to other more open > > > distribution channels. While it is hard to move people off of tools > that > > > work I would like to see groups try new methods. > > > > > > *LRA* > > > > > > As e-editor of the Literacy Research Association we are trying to > > encourage > > > people to publsih their own content and push through our new websites. > > > Mainly by using the forums. These can be set up just like list servs, > > your > > > inbox can be flooded as much as you want. So could your RSS feed. > > > > > > *XMCA* > > > > > > The Extended Mind Culture and Activity theory was a MOOC long before > that > > > was even a thing. There have been people arguing and seeking consensus > > over > > > Russian and German translations of words for over a decade. It is the > > home > > > of Open scholarship on Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Vygotsky, > > > Hegel, Marx and a wonderful group of scholars. > > > > > > It is ripe for a tool like Discourse or Known. > > > > > > I fall in and out of XMCA. It is a list serv that works too well. So I > > have > > > to hide it in my email client if inbox zero were ever to be reached. I > > > recently bundled XMCA in Google's new inbox tool which means I can see > > the > > > messages and quickly dismiss them. > > > > > > Its when I need to find an idea again that XMCA gets difficult. > > > > > > It also reads like a Novel. The brilliant thought, often outside of my > > > wheelhouse, makes casual reading impossible. The problem of course is > it > > is > > > email. Searching through email for threads of logic gets hard quick. > > > Discourse > > > > > > I have been playing a bit in discourse with #ccourses and with > Mozilla's > > > webmaker (now Mozilla Learning...I think). At first I was hesitant. > Not a > > > fan of stackable forums. I like threaded discussions. Showing my age > > here. > > > > > > But the social, the tagging, and the categories make it ideal for a > > complex > > > learning space like XMCA. This would be a little more of a closed off > > space > > > but would resemble the list serv without all of the baggage (until we > > > discover the new luggage that folks travel with in new spaces). > > > > > > I threw together a quick example > > > < > > > http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the- > > literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 > > > >(using > > > recent emails as an example) on my own site (not sure if log-in > > required). > > > > > > http://forum.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/t/winns-exploring-the- > > literate-trajectories-of-youth-across-time-and-space/18 > > > > > > XMCA is already installed on a university server. Discourse would be no > > > different. Except better. > > > Known > > > > > > I am just starting to play with Known but I could easily see it be used > > for > > > distributed discourse. You can quickly push it out to everywhere. > > > > > > If Wordpress is chess, than Known is Othello. Both allow for endless > > > learning but one can begin playing Othello almsot immediately. > > > > > > Basically as community of academics, in places like XMCA and Listserv, > we > > > should encourage people to publish on their own sites and syndicate > > > everything to a common hub or space. > > > > > > Known would be just one example. This can be done with any blogging > > > platform. The goal should be to own you own content in a federated web. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. > Waddington > > > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From smago@uga.edu Sun Mar 29 11:23:01 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:23:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, I'll offer an answer. I do think you've captured the essence of Winn's MCA piece, and raise a good question about those teachers who both teach the school curriculum and also work with kids in other contexts, or at the very least, participate on communities of practice that are quite different from schools with respect to literacy expectations. I'm guessing that most teachers primarily teach. I taught HS English for 14 years and it's a killer in terms of the amount of work required, especially when it comes to grading student writing. I coached sports for 4 of those years, and interacting with kids on the track and on the basketball court helped me get to know kids in very different ways--they are much more "themselves" when engaged in practices and games than during the formal hour of class we'd share once a day. So, I wouldn't quite call it a "failure" to engage, because one reason I had to get out of coaching was that it left me with no life whatsoever outside school and coaching. That became emotionally unhealthy for me after 4 years. I do know of others who've taken up work-related interests that map onto their formal public school teaching roles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYgxCHtArmA provides a video of a teacher in Georgia who, after the school day is over, is active in community literacy in the spoken word tradition. (Paul Ayo is a stage name; I forget his teacherly name.) His involvement in this C.O.P. in turns informs his efforts to teach his kids. But it?s a very difficult task to manage, because teaching is so demanding. If I would offer a generalizable lesson for educators, it?s that it takes considerable passion to take on extra duties beyond the classroom (and my experience is as an English teacher, where we grade a lot of student writing and often have 150 students a day). Sometimes, these passions do not necessarily involve kids, at least not directly. I know of teachers, for instance, who live in a different city from the one in which they teach and are on their local school boards. http://www.steppenwolf.org/Plays-Events/productions/bio.aspx?id=463&crewId=1345 links to a guy I used to teach with at the same high school he still works at; his passion is theater, and I don?t know how he manages to do both. Other teachers assume roles in professional organizations like the National Council of Teachers of English, eating up all available time; others are in teacher-research groups or other professional development initiatives. So, the exemplary teachers that Winn describes are unusual in that they carve out time to take on additional passions, and do so directly with kids. I suppose my coaching fell into that category, and I could not have gone to graduate school or met my significant others in life without giving up the coaching. Hope that?s what you had in mind. p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 1:57 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space Peter--- Thanks to Greg McV's mediation :-)) I wanted to ask you the question I have been asking on the list in general but not getting much help with ( or not understanding much of the help I was getting!). You write at the end of your summary of Maisha's narrative, *And so she explores trajectories that are robust and highly energized, yet that depart from those taught and assessed formally in education.* So here is my question in a nutshell. The big lesson i took from Maisha's trajectory of work was not only that there is a vibrant, literate, cultural thriving alongside of school failure, there are teachers with lives in both worlds who appear to be able to bridge those worlds for the kids so that schooling makes sense, has its uses and interpretations, in two worlds. (This is always true of teaching/learning in my view, but it is very marked here in many socially significant ways). Others have failed where several of the people who play a central role in Maish'a narrative succeed. What are the generalizable lessons we can take from these examples. I did not see this so much a question of trajectories, at least in this narrative. That is probably my lack of expertise in this line of current literacy work. mike On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 12:56 PM, Peter Smagorinsky > wrote: > Winn's 2015 MCA article was voted as this issue's discussion paper, > and in the absence of an opening opining post thus far, I'll try to > start the conversation. > > Maisha is a mid-career African American researcher with a strong > dedication to investigating the literacy activities of Black youth. > Her paper traces themes that she has explored in 4 projects, each of > which yielded a book, from her career stops at Berkeley, New York, > Atlanta, and now Madison, Wisconsin (all in the USA). If I can extract > one major theme from this work, it's that AA youth who are often > characterized as having low literacy are in fact highly interested in > language usage and linguistic performance, and immensely skilled and > productive in their linguistic lives. Without using a Vygotskian > vocabulary, she asserts (and here I provide the Vygotskian terms) that > through their use of speech, they elevate their thinking to higher > mental processes, although not such that schools can recognize them. > And so she explores trajectories that are robust and highly energized, > yet that depart from those taught and assessed formally in education. > > I'll take a detour here to refer to a talk that our mutual friend > David Kirkland gave at the National Council of Teachers of English > convention last November, in recognition of receiving NCTE's highest > research award, the David Russell Award. What follows is taken from a > book chapter I've drafted for a collection on adolescent literacy, in > which I describe Kirkland's findings. I'll let this stand as my > opening conversational turn, in hopes that others will find avenues > through which to enter the discussion. I think that what follows is > relevant to what Maisha talks about in her article-hardly > comprehensively, but I see these issues as undergirding her general > perspective on students from (mostly) African American communities who > lead rich literacy lives while being assessed in school as being deficient. > > scores of scholars, many of them from an African American heritage, > have expanded on Heath's (1983) findings, investigating African > American literacy development in a variety of regions and settings. > These scholars (e.g., Kirkland, 2012) have found that although Black > students are continually measured to have low and declining literacy > rates in school, they live rich lives with print, spoken, and > multimodal texts in their teeming literacy lives once outside the tolling of the school bells. > Kirkland (2014) makes a key distinction in considering how such > opposing conclusions could be found on the same population. School > achievement tends to be measured in single-sitting examinations that > are based on problems posed by test-makers, with scores computed for statistical manipulation. > Ethnographies tend to be conducted outside school over time, with > detailed documentation of social and cognitive processes through which > self-chosen literacy goals are pursued, often with feedback, > affirmation, critique, and other forms of response helping to shape > literacy products, including readings. Such studies of urban Black > students' literacy activities focus on what the youth consider to be > authentic, meaningful processes and products, and typically find that > literacy achievement is high, sustained, and of great social value. > These literacy practices are characterized by their highly social > qualities as youth perform for one another and use texts to position > themselves amidst youth culture and others in their environments-a > stark contrast to the solitary, detached manner in which their literacy is measured in school assessments. > Kirkland (2014) finds a set of related problems associated with > relying on conventional school assessment to stand as definitive > measures of literacy attainment. First, the literacy problems on which > they are tested are not posed by the students. Rather, they are > designed by adults paid to generate test problems that meet some > psychometric standard for reliability across the whole testing > population, often one dominated by middle class students whose > practices are more congenial to such testing. This approach of norming > answers according to one dominant demographic produces feelings of > alienation from the examinations and consequently from school on the > part of those from other cultural groups, given that school becomes > associated with punitive testing that is indifferent to what the kids find important in their literacy lives. > Second, the exams assume that their test items are isomorphic across > test-takers; that is, they are premised on the idea that the learning > tasks they present to students are understood in the same manner by > all within the test-taking population. In particular, the test > designers tend to assume that the task as they envision and intend it > is in turn taken up by all students in the same fashion in which they > offer it. Newman, Griffin, and Cole (1989; cf. Smagorinsky, 2011) > refer to this phenomenon as the problem of assuming a task or problem > isomorph in which a learning problem is presented to people of > different backgrounds in different settings under the assumptions that > this standardized procedure will be interpreted identically by all who > encounter it, because that is how the designers believe it should > work. The likelihood that the tests are constructed in relation to > autonomous texts-texts with an inherent meaning that is not subject to > reconstruction and instantiation of additional meanings by readers-is > highly unlikely, given the dubious nature of the assumption in light > of virtually any social or constructivist perspective on textual > composition and interpretation (see Nystrand, 1986 for a general critique; and Smagorinsky, 2001, for an elaboration of a cultural theory of reading). > Such attention to contexts is not only not available in the > standardized world of assessment, it obliterates such matters as > "exogenous" or outside factors, particularly poverty, from the > calculations, reifying the assumption that the tasks are isomorphic > (Berliner, 2014). The ethnographic work assembled by Kirkland (2014), > however, demonstrates that literacy practices and tasks are situated > and constructed and not amenable to standardized treatment. > Finally, school-based definitions of literacy are securely grounded in > print, ignoring the vast compositional means available to youth elsewhere. > Kirkland (2014) concludes that "As they age, Black males learn > literacy less in school and more outside it. This literacy learning is > defined less by print et al. and more by a variety of social and > cultural assets/flows necessary for achieving meaning and message > making important to their lives" (n. p.). As many have noted (e.g., > Kajder, 2010), the Black population is one of many social groups in > which print literacy serves as but one compositional tool among many > in the digital world of the 21st century. What is starkly evident from > Kirkland's comparison is the fact that young African Americans who are > consistently measured as having low literacy in school assessments are > reading and composing texts of great social value once school's out. > > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Mar 29 12:54:10 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 12:54:10 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is for sure the topic I had in mind. And it speaks to the issue of continued marginalization and class maintenance. Do others on the list have analogous examples? mike On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Mike, I'll offer an answer. I do think you've captured the essence of > Winn's MCA piece, and raise a good question about those teachers who both > teach the school curriculum and also work with kids in other contexts, or > at the very least, participate on communities of practice that are quite > different from schools with respect to literacy expectations. > > > > I'm guessing that most teachers primarily teach. I taught HS English for > 14 years and it's a killer in terms of the amount of work required, > especially when it comes to grading student writing. I coached sports for 4 > of those years, and interacting with kids on the track and on the > basketball court helped me get to know kids in very different ways--they > are much more "themselves" when engaged in practices and games than during > the formal hour of class we'd share once a day. > > > > So, I wouldn't quite call it a "failure" to engage, because one reason I > had to get out of coaching was that it left me with no life whatsoever > outside school and coaching. That became emotionally unhealthy for me after > 4 years. > > > > I do know of others who've taken up work-related interests that map onto > their formal public school teaching roles. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYgxCHtArmA provides a video of a teacher > in Georgia who, after the school day is over, is active in community > literacy in the spoken word tradition. (Paul Ayo is a stage name; I forget > his teacherly name.) His involvement in this C.O.P. in turns informs his > efforts to teach his kids. > > > > But it?s a very difficult task to manage, because teaching is so > demanding. If I would offer a generalizable lesson for educators, it?s that > it takes considerable passion to take on extra duties beyond the classroom > (and my experience is as an English teacher, where we grade a lot of > student writing and often have 150 students a day). Sometimes, these > passions do not necessarily involve kids, at least not directly. I know of > teachers, for instance, who live in a different city from the one in which > they teach and are on their local school boards. > http://www.steppenwolf.org/Plays-Events/productions/bio.aspx?id=463&crewId=1345 > links to a guy I used to teach with at the same high school he still works > at; his passion is theater, and I don?t know how he manages to do both. > Other teachers assume roles in professional organizations like the National > Council of Teachers of English, eating up all available time; others are in > teacher-research groups or other professional development initiatives. > > > > So, the exemplary teachers that Winn describes are unusual in that they > carve out time to take on additional passions, and do so directly with > kids. I suppose my coaching fell into that category, and I could not have > gone to graduate school or met my significant others in life without giving > up the coaching. > > > > Hope that?s what you had in mind. p > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 1:57 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth > across Time and Space > > > > Peter--- Thanks to Greg McV's mediation :-)) I wanted to ask you the > question I have been asking on the list in general but not getting much > help with ( or not understanding much of the help I was getting!). > > > > You write at the end of your summary of Maisha's narrative, > > > > *And so she explores trajectories that are robust and highly energized, > yet that depart from those taught and assessed formally in education.* > > > > So here is my question in a nutshell. The big lesson i took from Maisha's > trajectory of work was not only that there is a vibrant, literate, cultural > thriving alongside of school failure, there are teachers with lives in both > worlds who appear to be able to bridge those worlds for the kids so that > schooling makes sense, has its uses and interpretations, in two worlds. > (This is always true of teaching/learning in my view, but it is very marked > here in many socially significant ways). > > > > Others have failed where several of the people who play a central role in > Maish'a narrative succeed. What are the generalizable lessons we can take > from these examples. I did not see this so much a question of trajectories, > at least in this narrative. That is probably my lack of expertise in this > line of current literacy work. > > > > mike > > > > On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 12:56 PM, Peter Smagorinsky smago@uga.edu>> wrote: > > > > > Winn's 2015 MCA article was voted as this issue's discussion paper, > > > and in the absence of an opening opining post thus far, I'll try to > > > start the conversation. > > > > > > Maisha is a mid-career African American researcher with a strong > > > dedication to investigating the literacy activities of Black youth. > > > Her paper traces themes that she has explored in 4 projects, each of > > > which yielded a book, from her career stops at Berkeley, New York, > > > Atlanta, and now Madison, Wisconsin (all in the USA). If I can extract > > > one major theme from this work, it's that AA youth who are often > > > characterized as having low literacy are in fact highly interested in > > > language usage and linguistic performance, and immensely skilled and > > > productive in their linguistic lives. Without using a Vygotskian > > > vocabulary, she asserts (and here I provide the Vygotskian terms) that > > > through their use of speech, they elevate their thinking to higher > > > mental processes, although not such that schools can recognize them. > > > And so she explores trajectories that are robust and highly energized, > > > yet that depart from those taught and assessed formally in education. > > > > > > I'll take a detour here to refer to a talk that our mutual friend > > > David Kirkland gave at the National Council of Teachers of English > > > convention last November, in recognition of receiving NCTE's highest > > > research award, the David Russell Award. What follows is taken from a > > > book chapter I've drafted for a collection on adolescent literacy, in > > > which I describe Kirkland's findings. I'll let this stand as my > > > opening conversational turn, in hopes that others will find avenues > > > through which to enter the discussion. I think that what follows is > > > relevant to what Maisha talks about in her article-hardly > > > comprehensively, but I see these issues as undergirding her general > > > perspective on students from (mostly) African American communities who > > > lead rich literacy lives while being assessed in school as being > deficient. > > > > > > scores of scholars, many of them from an African American heritage, > > > have expanded on Heath's (1983) findings, investigating African > > > American literacy development in a variety of regions and settings. > > > These scholars (e.g., Kirkland, 2012) have found that although Black > > > students are continually measured to have low and declining literacy > > > rates in school, they live rich lives with print, spoken, and > > > multimodal texts in their teeming literacy lives once outside the > tolling of the school bells. > > > Kirkland (2014) makes a key distinction in considering how such > > > opposing conclusions could be found on the same population. School > > > achievement tends to be measured in single-sitting examinations that > > > are based on problems posed by test-makers, with scores computed for > statistical manipulation. > > > Ethnographies tend to be conducted outside school over time, with > > > detailed documentation of social and cognitive processes through which > > > self-chosen literacy goals are pursued, often with feedback, > > > affirmation, critique, and other forms of response helping to shape > > > literacy products, including readings. Such studies of urban Black > > > students' literacy activities focus on what the youth consider to be > > > authentic, meaningful processes and products, and typically find that > > > literacy achievement is high, sustained, and of great social value. > > > These literacy practices are characterized by their highly social > > > qualities as youth perform for one another and use texts to position > > > themselves amidst youth culture and others in their environments-a > > > stark contrast to the solitary, detached manner in which their literacy > is measured in school assessments. > > > Kirkland (2014) finds a set of related problems associated with > > > relying on conventional school assessment to stand as definitive > > > measures of literacy attainment. First, the literacy problems on which > > > they are tested are not posed by the students. Rather, they are > > > designed by adults paid to generate test problems that meet some > > > psychometric standard for reliability across the whole testing > > > population, often one dominated by middle class students whose > > > practices are more congenial to such testing. This approach of norming > > > answers according to one dominant demographic produces feelings of > > > alienation from the examinations and consequently from school on the > > > part of those from other cultural groups, given that school becomes > > > associated with punitive testing that is indifferent to what the kids > find important in their literacy lives. > > > Second, the exams assume that their test items are isomorphic across > > > test-takers; that is, they are premised on the idea that the learning > > > tasks they present to students are understood in the same manner by > > > all within the test-taking population. In particular, the test > > > designers tend to assume that the task as they envision and intend it > > > is in turn taken up by all students in the same fashion in which they > > > offer it. Newman, Griffin, and Cole (1989; cf. Smagorinsky, 2011) > > > refer to this phenomenon as the problem of assuming a task or problem > > > isomorph in which a learning problem is presented to people of > > > different backgrounds in different settings under the assumptions that > > > this standardized procedure will be interpreted identically by all who > > > encounter it, because that is how the designers believe it should > > > work. The likelihood that the tests are constructed in relation to > > > autonomous texts-texts with an inherent meaning that is not subject to > > > reconstruction and instantiation of additional meanings by readers-is > > > highly unlikely, given the dubious nature of the assumption in light > > > of virtually any social or constructivist perspective on textual > > > composition and interpretation (see Nystrand, 1986 for a general > critique; and Smagorinsky, 2001, for an elaboration of a cultural theory of > reading). > > > Such attention to contexts is not only not available in the > > > standardized world of assessment, it obliterates such matters as > > > "exogenous" or outside factors, particularly poverty, from the > > > calculations, reifying the assumption that the tasks are isomorphic > > > (Berliner, 2014). The ethnographic work assembled by Kirkland (2014), > > > however, demonstrates that literacy practices and tasks are situated > > > and constructed and not amenable to standardized treatment. > > > Finally, school-based definitions of literacy are securely grounded in > > > print, ignoring the vast compositional means available to youth > elsewhere. > > > Kirkland (2014) concludes that "As they age, Black males learn > > > literacy less in school and more outside it. This literacy learning is > > > defined less by print et al. and more by a variety of social and > > > cultural assets/flows necessary for achieving meaning and message > > > making important to their lives" (n. p.). As many have noted (e.g., > > > Kajder, 2010), the Black population is one of many social groups in > > > which print literacy serves as but one compositional tool among many > > > in the digital world of the 21st century. What is starkly evident from > > > Kirkland's comparison is the fact that young African Americans who are > > > consistently measured as having low literacy in school assessments are > > > reading and composing texts of great social value once school's out. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Mar 29 14:08:26 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:08:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Problem with ListServs In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <1427663305774.96380@unm.edu> My Gosh! $200 for a hardback about a sperm humpbacked whale! I think it does make an interesting presentation as a piecemeal work of Digital Turks, even if you prefer the dog-eared version, don't you think, mike? I'd like to offer that there is an awkwardness to using Google off the LCHC homepage, in that it's not at the fingertips, but also Google is not a private search engine (though it is a privately owned company), and so it's not a preference for that reason (I use duckduckgo.com for my web searching, for example). I'm not saying I refuse to search because of google on the LCHC homepage, but I'm still remiss that there aren't kinds of ways of searching contents that are organized in a curated presentation, and so dealing with the search box at LCHC home, one must know what one is looking for before the search. This doesn't really lend itself to being friendly to newcomers. I'm looking for ways to browse the contents of the XMCA that would be likened to the ways in which I might browse a bookstore, following my nose. Browsing and non-searchbox access would also allow novel topics to be saved or highlighted. Otherwise, those that might go off the beaten trail can be lost due to the weeds of time growing over new, trailblazing topics. The alternative is to commit them to memory, if one happened to be on the list at the time the topic popped up. This is not an elegant failure. I'm all for elegant failures, you see! :) Kind regards, Annalisa From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Sun Mar 29 14:18:28 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:18:28 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Problem with ListServs In-Reply-To: <1427663305774.96380@unm.edu> References: <1427663305774.96380@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, And a book about a whale using a language of the Web, that was funded openly by the Web, is only available in the dog eared version. I am not sure if Google Crawls and connects data of searches using internal search engines. That is an interesting question. You can always tag material in your own inbox. Granted this is a solitary function and does not take advantage of the crowd. On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 5:11 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > My Gosh! $200 for a hardback about a sperm humpbacked whale! > > I think it does make an interesting presentation as a piecemeal work of > Digital Turks, even if you prefer the dog-eared version, don't you think, > mike? > > I'd like to offer that there is an awkwardness to using Google off the > LCHC homepage, in that it's not at the fingertips, but also Google is not a > private search engine (though it is a privately owned company), and so it's > not a preference for that reason (I use duckduckgo.com for my web > searching, for example). > > I'm not saying I refuse to search because of google on the LCHC homepage, > but I'm still remiss that there aren't kinds of ways of searching contents > that are organized in a curated presentation, and so dealing with the > search box at LCHC home, one must know what one is looking for before the > search. This doesn't really lend itself to being friendly to newcomers. > > I'm looking for ways to browse the contents of the XMCA that would be > likened to the ways in which I might browse a bookstore, following my nose. > > Browsing and non-searchbox access would also allow novel topics to be > saved or highlighted. Otherwise, those that might go off the beaten trail > can be lost due to the weeds of time growing over new, trailblazing topics. > The alternative is to commit them to memory, if one happened to be on the > list at the time the topic popped up. This is not an elegant failure. > > I'm all for elegant failures, you see! > > :) > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Mar 29 14:23:33 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:23:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <1427664212985.63755@unm.edu> OK, now I understand the boundaries that you mean, mike. I thought you meant the institutional boundaries as communities of practice, not personal boundaries of the teachers inside and outside the institution. I can see that boundaries around teaching are important to keep intact in that sense. Teachers are already so overloaded, that there has to be some way of drawing out appropriate interactions that are "allowable" and "finite" and perhaps this suggests that there is a study of patterns of interactions in an ethnographic sense to decide which are the optimum ones and then these can become sorts of touchstones or guideposts that can be elaborated upon over time? Of course I'm not thinking as a teacher, but as a designer of interactions. Perhaps one of the reasons outside activities are so demanding is because of a lack of naming and defining these interactions. Also I'd like to add that it can also be the case that activities that are creative, such as poetry slams, are enormously rewarding and so they can become a kind of fuel for everyone involved, as is the case where joyful undertakings take place and takeover the place. Because of this energy-creating force, it's hard to see this as work that requires boundaries, and it's even harder to see it as a sacrifice, as may be the case when marking papers for 150 students. Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Mar 29 14:34:09 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:34:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Problem with ListServs In-Reply-To: References: <1427663305774.96380@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1427664845966.25203@unm.edu> Yes, GregMcV, it is the pre-dog-eared version, which is likely the only way to associate dog's ears with whales that I know to date. Of course there are ways of storing one's own emails and then searching one's email client for XMCA content, however, this cannot include the store of content appearing before one started on the list. Furthermore, as I'd like to emphasize, this doesn't welcome newcomers, who may not know what to look for. Newcomers are not unintelligent folks who know nothing, they may not know the community and its rhythms, and they may not know what are established threads of thought that the community tends to congregate. Or for example what the controversies are. These are topics I've touched on when I first landed here, so forgive my repetitions. GregMcV, I was also wondering what is Known? is this equivalent to wordpress? Is it a kind of content management system? I didn't quite understand your analogy of chess vs othello. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Greg Mcverry Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 3:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Problem with ListServs Annalisa, And a book about a whale using a language of the Web, that was funded openly by the Web, is only available in the dog eared version. I am not sure if Google Crawls and connects data of searches using internal search engines. That is an interesting question. You can always tag material in your own inbox. Granted this is a solitary function and does not take advantage of the crowd. On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 5:11 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > My Gosh! $200 for a hardback about a sperm humpbacked whale! > > I think it does make an interesting presentation as a piecemeal work of > Digital Turks, even if you prefer the dog-eared version, don't you think, > mike? > > I'd like to offer that there is an awkwardness to using Google off the > LCHC homepage, in that it's not at the fingertips, but also Google is not a > private search engine (though it is a privately owned company), and so it's > not a preference for that reason (I use duckduckgo.com for my web > searching, for example). > > I'm not saying I refuse to search because of google on the LCHC homepage, > but I'm still remiss that there aren't kinds of ways of searching contents > that are organized in a curated presentation, and so dealing with the > search box at LCHC home, one must know what one is looking for before the > search. This doesn't really lend itself to being friendly to newcomers. > > I'm looking for ways to browse the contents of the XMCA that would be > likened to the ways in which I might browse a bookstore, following my nose. > > Browsing and non-searchbox access would also allow novel topics to be > saved or highlighted. Otherwise, those that might go off the beaten trail > can be lost due to the weeds of time growing over new, trailblazing topics. > The alternative is to commit them to memory, if one happened to be on the > list at the time the topic popped up. This is not an elegant failure. > > I'm all for elegant failures, you see! > > :) > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Sun Mar 29 14:50:32 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:50:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Problem with ListServs In-Reply-To: <1427664845966.25203@unm.edu> References: <1427663305774.96380@unm.edu> <1427664845966.25203@unm.edu> Message-ID: Known, withknown.com is a light weight indieweb (read open source) publishing platform. I play in a lot of indieweb spaces looking for interstices with education. It is more lightweight then a self-hosted wordpress install but united around the principle we should control our own content and syndicate it out to the world. The reason for the metaphor goes back to an old marketing campaign and it was a h/t to my grandfather (who loved the game). I think the add for Othello was something like minutes to learn and a lifetime to master. Chess as well takes a lifetime to master but has a much steeper learning curve. On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 5:37 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Yes, GregMcV, it is the pre-dog-eared version, which is likely the only > way to associate dog's ears with whales that I know to date. > > Of course there are ways of storing one's own emails and then searching > one's email client for XMCA content, however, this cannot include the store > of content appearing before one started on the list. > > Furthermore, as I'd like to emphasize, this doesn't welcome newcomers, who > may not know what to look for. Newcomers are not unintelligent folks who > know nothing, they may not know the community and its rhythms, and they may > not know what are established threads of thought that the community tends > to congregate. Or for example what the controversies are. > > These are topics I've touched on when I first landed here, so forgive my > repetitions. > > GregMcV, I was also wondering what is Known? is this equivalent to > wordpress? Is it a kind of content management system? I didn't quite > understand your analogy of chess vs othello. > > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Greg Mcverry > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 3:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Problem with ListServs > > Annalisa, > > And a book about a whale using a language of the Web, that was funded > openly by the Web, is only available in the dog eared version. > > I am not sure if Google Crawls and connects data of searches using > internal search engines. That is an interesting question. > > You can always tag material in your own inbox. Granted this is a solitary > function and does not take advantage of the crowd. > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 5:11 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > My Gosh! $200 for a hardback about a sperm humpbacked whale! > > > > I think it does make an interesting presentation as a piecemeal work of > > Digital Turks, even if you prefer the dog-eared version, don't you think, > > mike? > > > > I'd like to offer that there is an awkwardness to using Google off the > > LCHC homepage, in that it's not at the fingertips, but also Google is > not a > > private search engine (though it is a privately owned company), and so > it's > > not a preference for that reason (I use duckduckgo.com for my web > > searching, for example). > > > > I'm not saying I refuse to search because of google on the LCHC homepage, > > but I'm still remiss that there aren't kinds of ways of searching > contents > > that are organized in a curated presentation, and so dealing with the > > search box at LCHC home, one must know what one is looking for before the > > search. This doesn't really lend itself to being friendly to newcomers. > > > > I'm looking for ways to browse the contents of the XMCA that would be > > likened to the ways in which I might browse a bookstore, following my > nose. > > > > Browsing and non-searchbox access would also allow novel topics to be > > saved or highlighted. Otherwise, those that might go off the beaten trail > > can be lost due to the weeds of time growing over new, trailblazing > topics. > > The alternative is to commit them to memory, if one happened to be on the > > list at the time the topic popped up. This is not an elegant failure. > > > > I'm all for elegant failures, you see! > > > > :) > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Mar 29 14:58:33 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 14:58:33 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: <1427664212985.63755@unm.edu> References: <1427664212985.63755@unm.edu> Message-ID: First a request. I cannot find the Winn article on my onbox. Would someone please repost. Peter, I will give a personal example that supports your description of the constraints that teaching in school engenders. When AERA came to Vancouver this international forum was highlighted in Vancouver schools inviting participation by teachers. However, at the actual conference I noticed that most of the participants were from university departments and rarely did I meet a local teacher taking a professional day to attend the conference. Teacher counsellors in Vancouver receive $75 a year for professional development and to go to a conference is an act of dedication. If, as Peter described, a teacher besides teaching, takes on other duties in the community, then the opportunity to also "reflect" on their practice becomes an act of personal dedication committed to individually. The opportunity for front line teachers to gather regularly together and collectively reflect on their practice is even rarer [and more precious]. Mike, recently you reflected on a professor who has tenure and a home and financial concerens having constraints on how they approach their work. What Peter is highlighting is the constraints on "reflective time". In some ways a university setting as a social situation of development is far removed from the community of educators who they are addressing. When you ask how to generalize the understandings of Winn and the critique of current practices, the lack of opportunity for "ongoing" shared reflective practice within "communities of learning" [the latest buzz words] is a constraint that is real and limiting. Larry On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > OK, now I understand the boundaries that you mean, mike. > > I thought you meant the institutional boundaries as communities of > practice, not personal boundaries of the teachers inside and outside the > institution. > > I can see that boundaries around teaching are important to keep intact in > that sense. Teachers are already so overloaded, that there has to be some > way of drawing out appropriate interactions that are "allowable" and > "finite" and perhaps this suggests that there is a study of patterns of > interactions in an ethnographic sense to decide which are the optimum ones > and then these can become sorts of touchstones or guideposts that can be > elaborated upon over time? > > Of course I'm not thinking as a teacher, but as a designer of > interactions. Perhaps one of the reasons outside activities are so > demanding is because of a lack of naming and defining these interactions. > > Also I'd like to add that it can also be the case that activities that are > creative, such as poetry slams, are enormously rewarding and so they can > become a kind of fuel for everyone involved, as is the case where joyful > undertakings take place and takeover the place. Because of this > energy-creating force, it's hard to see this as work that requires > boundaries, and it's even harder to see it as a sacrifice, as may be the > case when marking papers for 150 students. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Mar 29 15:03:36 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 22:03:36 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: References: <1427664212985.63755@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1427666615953.59168@unm.edu> Larry, here you go! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Winn_Exploring the Literated Trajectories of Youth Across Time and Space_2015.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 92445 bytes Desc: Winn_Exploring the Literated Trajectories of Youth Across Time and Space_2015.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150329/f07024d5/attachment.pdf From glassman.13@osu.edu Sun Mar 29 17:33:26 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 00:33:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBDDE6@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> This is really interesting I think, because it actually challenges what our ideas of education are. I think I would go beyond Peter's idea of teachers using the everyday lives of their students to help them move towards higher mental functions, that perhaps it is something more complex, making education simultaneously a celebration and a critique of their everyday lives. A celebration of the history they live, such as you find at the cafes by day and open mics for community expression of life. A critique as a recognition of a society which is quick to participate, where identity soon might become a commitment number or a prison number (I found that very poignant). I have not read Maisha's work beyond this article but it seems to me Poppa Joe and Mama C were not trying to use the curriculum to teach their students what they must know, as an addendum to curriculum, but introducing them into the deep, bubbling cauldron of knowing. Giving the students the space to learn. I am assuming when you are talking about the issues of boundaries Mike you are talking about Pappa Joe and Mama C. On one level I think the idea of boundaries are overt. Do they have to open up a learning space across the street from the school because there is some unseen boundary (I really hope to get a chance to read this book). On the other hand I am left to think that boundaries are something that we create. That in a larger sense Papa Joe and Mamma C were not dealing with boundaries because they were living in a world that did not create them - boundaries are imported from another world. It feels like they are riding along with the students, following that waves of history, the same waves the poets at the open mic invite their audiences to follow. Orlando Fals Borda talks about living with those who you might open up learning spaces for (I am trying really hard not to use the word teach). Understanding that the lives they live at the moment are completely integrated into their pasts and foreground for their futures, where past and future actually becomes intermingled in the celebration of living - vivencia he calls it, and sensi pasentes (I know I butchered the spelling on that). It seems to me that is what Pappa Joe and Mamma C are doing much more than traditional teaching of language arts. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 3:54 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space That is for sure the topic I had in mind. And it speaks to the issue of continued marginalization and class maintenance. Do others on the list have analogous examples? mike On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Mike, I'll offer an answer. I do think you've captured the essence of > Winn's MCA piece, and raise a good question about those teachers who > both teach the school curriculum and also work with kids in other > contexts, or at the very least, participate on communities of practice > that are quite different from schools with respect to literacy expectations. > > > > I'm guessing that most teachers primarily teach. I taught HS English > for > 14 years and it's a killer in terms of the amount of work required, > especially when it comes to grading student writing. I coached sports > for 4 of those years, and interacting with kids on the track and on > the basketball court helped me get to know kids in very different > ways--they are much more "themselves" when engaged in practices and > games than during the formal hour of class we'd share once a day. > > > > So, I wouldn't quite call it a "failure" to engage, because one reason > I had to get out of coaching was that it left me with no life > whatsoever outside school and coaching. That became emotionally > unhealthy for me after > 4 years. > > > > I do know of others who've taken up work-related interests that map > onto their formal public school teaching roles. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYgxCHtArmA provides a video of a > teacher in Georgia who, after the school day is over, is active in > community literacy in the spoken word tradition. (Paul Ayo is a stage > name; I forget his teacherly name.) His involvement in this C.O.P. in > turns informs his efforts to teach his kids. > > > > But it?s a very difficult task to manage, because teaching is so > demanding. If I would offer a generalizable lesson for educators, it?s > that it takes considerable passion to take on extra duties beyond the > classroom (and my experience is as an English teacher, where we grade > a lot of student writing and often have 150 students a day). > Sometimes, these passions do not necessarily involve kids, at least > not directly. I know of teachers, for instance, who live in a > different city from the one in which they teach and are on their local school boards. > http://www.steppenwolf.org/Plays-Events/productions/bio.aspx?id=463&cr > ewId=1345 links to a guy I used to teach with at the same high school > he still works at; his passion is theater, and I don?t know how he > manages to do both. > Other teachers assume roles in professional organizations like the > National Council of Teachers of English, eating up all available time; > others are in teacher-research groups or other professional development initiatives. > > > > So, the exemplary teachers that Winn describes are unusual in that > they carve out time to take on additional passions, and do so directly > with kids. I suppose my coaching fell into that category, and I could > not have gone to graduate school or met my significant others in life > without giving up the coaching. > > > > Hope that?s what you had in mind. p > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 1:57 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of > Youth across Time and Space > > > > Peter--- Thanks to Greg McV's mediation :-)) I wanted to ask you the > question I have been asking on the list in general but not getting > much help with ( or not understanding much of the help I was getting!). > > > > You write at the end of your summary of Maisha's narrative, > > > > *And so she explores trajectories that are robust and highly > energized, yet that depart from those taught and assessed formally in > education.* > > > > So here is my question in a nutshell. The big lesson i took from > Maisha's trajectory of work was not only that there is a vibrant, > literate, cultural thriving alongside of school failure, there are > teachers with lives in both worlds who appear to be able to bridge > those worlds for the kids so that schooling makes sense, has its uses and interpretations, in two worlds. > (This is always true of teaching/learning in my view, but it is very > marked here in many socially significant ways). > > > > Others have failed where several of the people who play a central role > in Maish'a narrative succeed. What are the generalizable lessons we > can take from these examples. I did not see this so much a question of > trajectories, at least in this narrative. That is probably my lack of > expertise in this line of current literacy work. > > > > mike > > > > On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 12:56 PM, Peter Smagorinsky smago@uga.edu>> wrote: > > > > > Winn's 2015 MCA article was voted as this issue's discussion paper, > > > and in the absence of an opening opining post thus far, I'll try to > > > start the conversation. > > > > > > Maisha is a mid-career African American researcher with a strong > > > dedication to investigating the literacy activities of Black youth. > > > Her paper traces themes that she has explored in 4 projects, each of > > > which yielded a book, from her career stops at Berkeley, New York, > > > Atlanta, and now Madison, Wisconsin (all in the USA). If I can > > extract > > > one major theme from this work, it's that AA youth who are often > > > characterized as having low literacy are in fact highly interested > > in > > > language usage and linguistic performance, and immensely skilled and > > > productive in their linguistic lives. Without using a Vygotskian > > > vocabulary, she asserts (and here I provide the Vygotskian terms) > > that > > > through their use of speech, they elevate their thinking to higher > > > mental processes, although not such that schools can recognize them. > > > And so she explores trajectories that are robust and highly > > energized, > > > yet that depart from those taught and assessed formally in education. > > > > > > I'll take a detour here to refer to a talk that our mutual friend > > > David Kirkland gave at the National Council of Teachers of English > > > convention last November, in recognition of receiving NCTE's highest > > > research award, the David Russell Award. What follows is taken from > > a > > > book chapter I've drafted for a collection on adolescent literacy, > > in > > > which I describe Kirkland's findings. I'll let this stand as my > > > opening conversational turn, in hopes that others will find avenues > > > through which to enter the discussion. I think that what follows is > > > relevant to what Maisha talks about in her article-hardly > > > comprehensively, but I see these issues as undergirding her general > > > perspective on students from (mostly) African American communities > > who > > > lead rich literacy lives while being assessed in school as being > deficient. > > > > > > scores of scholars, many of them from an African American heritage, > > > have expanded on Heath's (1983) findings, investigating African > > > American literacy development in a variety of regions and settings. > > > These scholars (e.g., Kirkland, 2012) have found that although Black > > > students are continually measured to have low and declining literacy > > > rates in school, they live rich lives with print, spoken, and > > > multimodal texts in their teeming literacy lives once outside the > tolling of the school bells. > > > Kirkland (2014) makes a key distinction in considering how such > > > opposing conclusions could be found on the same population. School > > > achievement tends to be measured in single-sitting examinations that > > > are based on problems posed by test-makers, with scores computed for > statistical manipulation. > > > Ethnographies tend to be conducted outside school over time, with > > > detailed documentation of social and cognitive processes through > > which > > > self-chosen literacy goals are pursued, often with feedback, > > > affirmation, critique, and other forms of response helping to shape > > > literacy products, including readings. Such studies of urban Black > > > students' literacy activities focus on what the youth consider to be > > > authentic, meaningful processes and products, and typically find > > that > > > literacy achievement is high, sustained, and of great social value. > > > These literacy practices are characterized by their highly social > > > qualities as youth perform for one another and use texts to position > > > themselves amidst youth culture and others in their environments-a > > > stark contrast to the solitary, detached manner in which their > > literacy > is measured in school assessments. > > > Kirkland (2014) finds a set of related problems associated with > > > relying on conventional school assessment to stand as definitive > > > measures of literacy attainment. First, the literacy problems on > > which > > > they are tested are not posed by the students. Rather, they are > > > designed by adults paid to generate test problems that meet some > > > psychometric standard for reliability across the whole testing > > > population, often one dominated by middle class students whose > > > practices are more congenial to such testing. This approach of > > norming > > > answers according to one dominant demographic produces feelings of > > > alienation from the examinations and consequently from school on the > > > part of those from other cultural groups, given that school becomes > > > associated with punitive testing that is indifferent to what the > > kids > find important in their literacy lives. > > > Second, the exams assume that their test items are isomorphic across > > > test-takers; that is, they are premised on the idea that the > > learning > > > tasks they present to students are understood in the same manner by > > > all within the test-taking population. In particular, the test > > > designers tend to assume that the task as they envision and intend > > it > > > is in turn taken up by all students in the same fashion in which > > they > > > offer it. Newman, Griffin, and Cole (1989; cf. Smagorinsky, 2011) > > > refer to this phenomenon as the problem of assuming a task or > > problem > > > isomorph in which a learning problem is presented to people of > > > different backgrounds in different settings under the assumptions > > that > > > this standardized procedure will be interpreted identically by all > > who > > > encounter it, because that is how the designers believe it should > > > work. The likelihood that the tests are constructed in relation to > > > autonomous texts-texts with an inherent meaning that is not subject > > to > > > reconstruction and instantiation of additional meanings by > > readers-is > > > highly unlikely, given the dubious nature of the assumption in light > > > of virtually any social or constructivist perspective on textual > > > composition and interpretation (see Nystrand, 1986 for a general > critique; and Smagorinsky, 2001, for an elaboration of a cultural > theory of reading). > > > Such attention to contexts is not only not available in the > > > standardized world of assessment, it obliterates such matters as > > > "exogenous" or outside factors, particularly poverty, from the > > > calculations, reifying the assumption that the tasks are isomorphic > > > (Berliner, 2014). The ethnographic work assembled by Kirkland > > (2014), > > > however, demonstrates that literacy practices and tasks are situated > > > and constructed and not amenable to standardized treatment. > > > Finally, school-based definitions of literacy are securely grounded > > in > > > print, ignoring the vast compositional means available to youth > elsewhere. > > > Kirkland (2014) concludes that "As they age, Black males learn > > > literacy less in school and more outside it. This literacy learning > > is > > > defined less by print et al. and more by a variety of social and > > > cultural assets/flows necessary for achieving meaning and message > > > making important to their lives" (n. p.). As many have noted (e.g., > > > Kajder, 2010), the Black population is one of many social groups in > > > which print literacy serves as but one compositional tool among many > > > in the digital world of the 21st century. What is starkly evident > > from > > > Kirkland's comparison is the fact that young African Americans who > > are > > > consistently measured as having low literacy in school assessments > > are > > > reading and composing texts of great social value once school's out. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. > Waddington > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Mar 29 17:45:07 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 00:45:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBDDE6@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> References: , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBDDE6@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <1427676306601.67622@unm.edu> Hello esteemed XMCArs, One thought I had while reading Michael's post just now is the case of learning a different language to learn one's own. Vygotsky has made this observation someplace, yes? I wondered if there might be something like this happening in context of this learning space? I realize that this isn't directly related to mike's question about boundaries, but I wondered instead of the interaction that may take place to provide the students a space where they are free to speak with the words they want to use, and how that might actually aid in their more formal language in the classroom, even if that classroom-language's parameters are not defined (culturally) by them? Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Mar 29 18:58:03 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:58:03 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBDDE6@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBDDE6@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Michael, I was wondering where to enter this conversation and your referencing Poppa Joe and Mamma C leaves a opening. Your comment: It feels like they are riding along with the students, following that waves of history, the same waves the poets at the open mic invite their audiences to follow. Orlando Fals Borda talks about living with those who you might open up learning spaces for (I am trying really hard not to use the word teach). Understanding that the lives they live at the moment are completely integrated into their pasts and foreground for their futures, where past and future actually becomes intermingled in the celebration of living - vivencia he calls it, and sensi pasentes (I know I butchered the spelling on that). It seems to me that is what Pappa Joe and Mamma C are doing much more than traditional teaching of language arts. So what they are doing is an actual celebration of "living" where past is completely integrated into the present AND their pasts within this present moment are fore/grounded for their futures. I read Winn's retrospective article as fully participating in this celebratory way of "being-in-the-world". I want to focus on the section of the article "Freedom Dreaming With Youth Poets and highlight some insights that Winn shares with us. Winn reflects on how Poppa Joe "cultivated" his garden which was originally a place flodded with broken crack vials. Using this metaphor of "cultivating Joe's garden", Winn asks what is similar to the way Joe cultivated the land where most could not "imagine" that anything beautiful or worth salvaging could grow. What is similar is the way [or approach] of the radical Black TRADITION where dreamers dream "out loud" creating a world [of possibility, a world of perhaps] deeply committed to creating and sustaining literate identities within cocreated classes [places or localities which Winn refers to as third spaces] What were Poppa Joe's and Mamma C's "models"? The models came out of a TRADITION from the 1960's and 1970's [Black Arts Movement] THIS particular context or social situation within an existing "tradition" was the model which already existed and "informed" Poppa Joe through the past existing in the present moment. I believe it is this "aspect" [what I will call "living tradition] that is key to Winn's retrospective narrative. Poppa Joe and Mamma C "essentially" created ADPLC's in the public school context from a "place" of having lived within and lived through the Black Arts Movement "as" a "tradition". It is the honouring of this "living tradition" that empowers the Power Writers. Winn then mentions that she found the theory of "communities of practice" framework helpful. However, she also critiques that this model "does not suggest the sense of INTIMACY" that Winn regards as a key feature of historicizing literacy. Historicizing literacy privileges the "lived experiences" and "legacies" of the participants. It is this backdrop of "a" history that seems to need amplification. No technology of reproducing Poppa Joe's "approach" if the reproduction has never been "lived through" and generates a "tradition" that is a "living" tradition. I have not used the term "hermeneutical" but this narrative is a living example of a diacritical hermeneutical "approach" Dialectical for Gadamer was the movement between the known and unknown without synthesis. The movement is reciprocal from known to unknown AND from unknown to known WITHIN historicality. The reciprocal movement of the past within the present moment and the anticipation of the future within the reciprocal movement of past in the present AND present in the past [as living past] In this encounter BOTH the past "horizon" AND the present "horizon" are BOTH transformed. The past does not stay in the past and is located within "situations" of development. I am not sure if Winn acknowledges the similarities of this retrospective to the diacritical movement of "philosophical" hermeneutics but I find the parallels very insightful. Larry On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 5:33 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > This is really interesting I think, because it actually challenges what > our ideas of education are. I think I would go beyond Peter's idea of > teachers using the everyday lives of their students to help them move > towards higher mental functions, that perhaps it is something more complex, > making education simultaneously a celebration and a critique of their > everyday lives. A celebration of the history they live, such as you find > at the cafes by day and open mics for community expression of life. A > critique as a recognition of a society which is quick to participate, where > identity soon might become a commitment number or a prison number (I found > that very poignant). I have not read Maisha's work beyond this article but > it seems to me Poppa Joe and Mama C were not trying to use the curriculum > to teach their students what they must know, as an addendum to curriculum, > but introducing them into the deep, bubbling cauldron of knowing. Giving > the students the space to learn. > > I am assuming when you are talking about the issues of boundaries Mike you > are talking about Pappa Joe and Mama C. On one level I think the idea of > boundaries are overt. Do they have to open up a learning space across the > street from the school because there is some unseen boundary (I really hope > to get a chance to read this book). On the other hand I am left to think > that boundaries are something that we create. That in a larger sense Papa > Joe and Mamma C were not dealing with boundaries because they were living > in a world that did not create them - boundaries are imported from another > world. It feels like they are riding along with the students, following > that waves of history, the same waves the poets at the open mic invite > their audiences to follow. Orlando Fals Borda talks about living with > those who you might open up learning spaces for (I am trying really hard > not to use the word teach). Understanding that the lives they live at the > moment are completely integrated into their pasts and foreground for their > futures, where past and future actually becomes intermingled in the > celebration of living - vivencia he calls it, and sensi pasentes (I know I > butchered the spelling on that). It seems to me that is what Pappa Joe and > Mamma C are doing much more than traditional teaching of language arts. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 3:54 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth > across Time and Space > > That is for sure the topic I had in mind. And it speaks to the issue of > continued marginalization and class maintenance. > > Do others on the list have analogous examples? > > mike > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > Mike, I'll offer an answer. I do think you've captured the essence of > > Winn's MCA piece, and raise a good question about those teachers who > > both teach the school curriculum and also work with kids in other > > contexts, or at the very least, participate on communities of practice > > that are quite different from schools with respect to literacy > expectations. > > > > > > > > I'm guessing that most teachers primarily teach. I taught HS English > > for > > 14 years and it's a killer in terms of the amount of work required, > > especially when it comes to grading student writing. I coached sports > > for 4 of those years, and interacting with kids on the track and on > > the basketball court helped me get to know kids in very different > > ways--they are much more "themselves" when engaged in practices and > > games than during the formal hour of class we'd share once a day. > > > > > > > > So, I wouldn't quite call it a "failure" to engage, because one reason > > I had to get out of coaching was that it left me with no life > > whatsoever outside school and coaching. That became emotionally > > unhealthy for me after > > 4 years. > > > > > > > > I do know of others who've taken up work-related interests that map > > onto their formal public school teaching roles. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYgxCHtArmA provides a video of a > > teacher in Georgia who, after the school day is over, is active in > > community literacy in the spoken word tradition. (Paul Ayo is a stage > > name; I forget his teacherly name.) His involvement in this C.O.P. in > > turns informs his efforts to teach his kids. > > > > > > > > But it?s a very difficult task to manage, because teaching is so > > demanding. If I would offer a generalizable lesson for educators, it?s > > that it takes considerable passion to take on extra duties beyond the > > classroom (and my experience is as an English teacher, where we grade > > a lot of student writing and often have 150 students a day). > > Sometimes, these passions do not necessarily involve kids, at least > > not directly. I know of teachers, for instance, who live in a > > different city from the one in which they teach and are on their local > school boards. > > http://www.steppenwolf.org/Plays-Events/productions/bio.aspx?id=463&cr > > ewId=1345 links to a guy I used to teach with at the same high school > > he still works at; his passion is theater, and I don?t know how he > > manages to do both. > > Other teachers assume roles in professional organizations like the > > National Council of Teachers of English, eating up all available time; > > others are in teacher-research groups or other professional development > initiatives. > > > > > > > > So, the exemplary teachers that Winn describes are unusual in that > > they carve out time to take on additional passions, and do so directly > > with kids. I suppose my coaching fell into that category, and I could > > not have gone to graduate school or met my significant others in life > > without giving up the coaching. > > > > > > > > Hope that?s what you had in mind. p > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 1:57 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of > > Youth across Time and Space > > > > > > > > Peter--- Thanks to Greg McV's mediation :-)) I wanted to ask you the > > question I have been asking on the list in general but not getting > > much help with ( or not understanding much of the help I was getting!). > > > > > > > > You write at the end of your summary of Maisha's narrative, > > > > > > > > *And so she explores trajectories that are robust and highly > > energized, yet that depart from those taught and assessed formally in > > education.* > > > > > > > > So here is my question in a nutshell. The big lesson i took from > > Maisha's trajectory of work was not only that there is a vibrant, > > literate, cultural thriving alongside of school failure, there are > > teachers with lives in both worlds who appear to be able to bridge > > those worlds for the kids so that schooling makes sense, has its uses > and interpretations, in two worlds. > > (This is always true of teaching/learning in my view, but it is very > > marked here in many socially significant ways). > > > > > > > > Others have failed where several of the people who play a central role > > in Maish'a narrative succeed. What are the generalizable lessons we > > can take from these examples. I did not see this so much a question of > > trajectories, at least in this narrative. That is probably my lack of > > expertise in this line of current literacy work. > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 12:56 PM, Peter Smagorinsky > smago@uga.edu>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Winn's 2015 MCA article was voted as this issue's discussion paper, > > > > > and in the absence of an opening opining post thus far, I'll try to > > > > > start the conversation. > > > > > > > > > > Maisha is a mid-career African American researcher with a strong > > > > > dedication to investigating the literacy activities of Black youth. > > > > > Her paper traces themes that she has explored in 4 projects, each of > > > > > which yielded a book, from her career stops at Berkeley, New York, > > > > > Atlanta, and now Madison, Wisconsin (all in the USA). If I can > > > extract > > > > > one major theme from this work, it's that AA youth who are often > > > > > characterized as having low literacy are in fact highly interested > > > in > > > > > language usage and linguistic performance, and immensely skilled and > > > > > productive in their linguistic lives. Without using a Vygotskian > > > > > vocabulary, she asserts (and here I provide the Vygotskian terms) > > > that > > > > > through their use of speech, they elevate their thinking to higher > > > > > mental processes, although not such that schools can recognize them. > > > > > And so she explores trajectories that are robust and highly > > > energized, > > > > > yet that depart from those taught and assessed formally in education. > > > > > > > > > > I'll take a detour here to refer to a talk that our mutual friend > > > > > David Kirkland gave at the National Council of Teachers of English > > > > > convention last November, in recognition of receiving NCTE's highest > > > > > research award, the David Russell Award. What follows is taken from > > > a > > > > > book chapter I've drafted for a collection on adolescent literacy, > > > in > > > > > which I describe Kirkland's findings. I'll let this stand as my > > > > > opening conversational turn, in hopes that others will find avenues > > > > > through which to enter the discussion. I think that what follows is > > > > > relevant to what Maisha talks about in her article-hardly > > > > > comprehensively, but I see these issues as undergirding her general > > > > > perspective on students from (mostly) African American communities > > > who > > > > > lead rich literacy lives while being assessed in school as being > > deficient. > > > > > > > > > > scores of scholars, many of them from an African American heritage, > > > > > have expanded on Heath's (1983) findings, investigating African > > > > > American literacy development in a variety of regions and settings. > > > > > These scholars (e.g., Kirkland, 2012) have found that although Black > > > > > students are continually measured to have low and declining literacy > > > > > rates in school, they live rich lives with print, spoken, and > > > > > multimodal texts in their teeming literacy lives once outside the > > tolling of the school bells. > > > > > Kirkland (2014) makes a key distinction in considering how such > > > > > opposing conclusions could be found on the same population. School > > > > > achievement tends to be measured in single-sitting examinations that > > > > > are based on problems posed by test-makers, with scores computed for > > statistical manipulation. > > > > > Ethnographies tend to be conducted outside school over time, with > > > > > detailed documentation of social and cognitive processes through > > > which > > > > > self-chosen literacy goals are pursued, often with feedback, > > > > > affirmation, critique, and other forms of response helping to shape > > > > > literacy products, including readings. Such studies of urban Black > > > > > students' literacy activities focus on what the youth consider to be > > > > > authentic, meaningful processes and products, and typically find > > > that > > > > > literacy achievement is high, sustained, and of great social value. > > > > > These literacy practices are characterized by their highly social > > > > > qualities as youth perform for one another and use texts to position > > > > > themselves amidst youth culture and others in their environments-a > > > > > stark contrast to the solitary, detached manner in which their > > > literacy > > is measured in school assessments. > > > > > Kirkland (2014) finds a set of related problems associated with > > > > > relying on conventional school assessment to stand as definitive > > > > > measures of literacy attainment. First, the literacy problems on > > > which > > > > > they are tested are not posed by the students. Rather, they are > > > > > designed by adults paid to generate test problems that meet some > > > > > psychometric standard for reliability across the whole testing > > > > > population, often one dominated by middle class students whose > > > > > practices are more congenial to such testing. This approach of > > > norming > > > > > answers according to one dominant demographic produces feelings of > > > > > alienation from the examinations and consequently from school on the > > > > > part of those from other cultural groups, given that school becomes > > > > > associated with punitive testing that is indifferent to what the > > > kids > > find important in their literacy lives. > > > > > Second, the exams assume that their test items are isomorphic across > > > > > test-takers; that is, they are premised on the idea that the > > > learning > > > > > tasks they present to students are understood in the same manner by > > > > > all within the test-taking population. In particular, the test > > > > > designers tend to assume that the task as they envision and intend > > > it > > > > > is in turn taken up by all students in the same fashion in which > > > they > > > > > offer it. Newman, Griffin, and Cole (1989; cf. Smagorinsky, 2011) > > > > > refer to this phenomenon as the problem of assuming a task or > > > problem > > > > > isomorph in which a learning problem is presented to people of > > > > > different backgrounds in different settings under the assumptions > > > that > > > > > this standardized procedure will be interpreted identically by all > > > who > > > > > encounter it, because that is how the designers believe it should > > > > > work. The likelihood that the tests are constructed in relation to > > > > > autonomous texts-texts with an inherent meaning that is not subject > > > to > > > > > reconstruction and instantiation of additional meanings by > > > readers-is > > > > > highly unlikely, given the dubious nature of the assumption in light > > > > > of virtually any social or constructivist perspective on textual > > > > > composition and interpretation (see Nystrand, 1986 for a general > > critique; and Smagorinsky, 2001, for an elaboration of a cultural > > theory of reading). > > > > > Such attention to contexts is not only not available in the > > > > > standardized world of assessment, it obliterates such matters as > > > > > "exogenous" or outside factors, particularly poverty, from the > > > > > calculations, reifying the assumption that the tasks are isomorphic > > > > > (Berliner, 2014). The ethnographic work assembled by Kirkland > > > (2014), > > > > > however, demonstrates that literacy practices and tasks are situated > > > > > and constructed and not amenable to standardized treatment. > > > > > Finally, school-based definitions of literacy are securely grounded > > > in > > > > > print, ignoring the vast compositional means available to youth > > elsewhere. > > > > > Kirkland (2014) concludes that "As they age, Black males learn > > > > > literacy less in school and more outside it. This literacy learning > > > is > > > > > defined less by print et al. and more by a variety of social and > > > > > cultural assets/flows necessary for achieving meaning and message > > > > > making important to their lives" (n. p.). As many have noted (e.g., > > > > > Kajder, 2010), the Black population is one of many social groups in > > > > > which print literacy serves as but one compositional tool among many > > > > > in the digital world of the 21st century. What is starkly evident > > > from > > > > > Kirkland's comparison is the fact that young African Americans who > > > are > > > > > consistently measured as having low literacy in school assessments > > > are > > > > > reading and composing texts of great social value once school's out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. > > Waddington > > > > > > -- > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Mar 29 21:03:48 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 22:03:48 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Opt-out movement Message-ID: This is related to the other thread since one of my initial responses to the comments there was: As teachers, why not just stop paying attention to all the testing and do the stuff that we know really matters? Here is one answer for why not: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ntklteK_c&annotation_id=54833ffb-0000-2b41-a517-001a11c17db2&feature=iv&src_vid=JM1ddULfdhU It is a video about a school in Chicago where 75% of the students opted out of taking a standardized test and the fallout that followed. Scary. -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From pfarruggio@utpa.edu Sun Mar 29 21:48:30 2015 From: pfarruggio@utpa.edu (Peter Farruggio) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 04:48:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, it's still unsafe for teachers to boycott the tests in most places, although the local teachers union in Seattle coordinated such an action last year. But the opt out movement is led by parents, certainly with teachers supporting it in the background, and it has blossomed this testing season. Certain administrators have been using bullying tactics, including outright violations of parents' rights; but the resistance to incessant testing will continue to grow as parents organize and coordinate their actions nationwide. Education is and always has been political, and the politics have become harsher with the neoliberal push to privatize schools and everything else. Teachers can and must play a role in defending democratic education, and that means helping to stop the testing madness. The best thing they can do at this point is to find ways to educate parents about what is at stake and how to exercise their parental rights. If that means conducting clandestine informational meetings in church basements, so be it. See below http://unitedoptout.com/ http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=5528§ion=Article http://fairtest.org/get-involved/opting-out Pete Farruggio, PhD Associate Professor, Bilingual Education University of Texas Pan American -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:04 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Opt-out movement This is related to the other thread since one of my initial responses to the comments there was: As teachers, why not just stop paying attention to all the testing and do the stuff that we know really matters? Here is one answer for why not: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ntklteK_c&annotation_id=54833ffb-0000-2b41-a517-001a11c17db2&feature=iv&src_vid=JM1ddULfdhU It is a video about a school in Chicago where 75% of the students opted out of taking a standardized test and the fallout that followed. Scary. -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From bferholt@gmail.com Mon Mar 30 07:14:09 2015 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 10:14:09 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here in the NYC area it is now a large and quickly growing, as well as a diverse, parent movement. I am generally pessimistic, despite the time I have chosen to devote to this movement, but there are three very good things to come out of it immediately: The children see their parents and teachers fighting back, together, because we care about them here and now -- we are present with them in their daily lives, not telling them what will be good for them when they grow up. May children enjoy joining the fight. Their tactics are very interesting, worth us thinking about, even if they are also funny. A huge march I went to this weekend had a sign that said: "Quomo, end testing, eat fresh Pizza." The teachers I work with, no matter what their schools are allowing them to do, feel deeply respected and supported by this movement, during this time when most of them are wondering whether or not they can remain in their chosen profession. Some of the NYC teachers are also opting their students out without the UFT or parents' support, just risking their jobs for their students, and while this cannot be widespread it creates empowering stories that intergenerational groups enjoy telling and retelling. In NYC we find out on Wed. if students getting higher scores one year to the next, on the tests, will now be the primary criteria for firing teachers. We'll also find out if all schools of education with teaching candidates who do not pass the new Pearson teacher exams (results are back and almost the only teacher candidates passing identify as white) will be closed down by Cuomo in three semesters. Du Bois was writing about this, it's not new, and there is also probably little we can do to change the tide, but at least in NY things may look very different for public schools preK-graduate school within a few short years. We'll see if Cuomo's budget passes on April fools day, Beth On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Peter Farruggio wrote: > Yes, it's still unsafe for teachers to boycott the tests in most places, > although the local teachers union in Seattle coordinated such an action > last year. But the opt out movement is led by parents, certainly with > teachers supporting it in the background, and it has blossomed this testing > season. Certain administrators have been using bullying tactics, including > outright violations of parents' rights; but the resistance to incessant > testing will continue to grow as parents organize and coordinate their > actions nationwide. Education is and always has been political, and the > politics have become harsher with the neoliberal push to privatize schools > and everything else. > > Teachers can and must play a role in defending democratic education, and > that means helping to stop the testing madness. The best thing they can do > at this point is to find ways to educate parents about what is at stake and > how to exercise their parental rights. If that means conducting clandestine > informational meetings in church basements, so be it. > > See below > > > > http://unitedoptout.com/ > > http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=5528§ion=Article > > http://fairtest.org/get-involved/opting-out > > > Pete Farruggio, PhD > Associate Professor, Bilingual Education > University of Texas Pan American > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:04 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Opt-out movement > > This is related to the other thread since one of my initial responses to > the comments there was: As teachers, why not just stop paying attention to > all the testing and do the stuff that we know really matters? > > Here is one answer for why not: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ntklteK_c&annotation_id=54833ffb-0000-2b41-a517-001a11c17db2&feature=iv&src_vid=JM1ddULfdhU > > It is a video about a school in Chicago where 75% of the students opted > out of taking a standardized test and the fallout that followed. > > Scary. > > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Mon Mar 30 07:21:06 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 14:21:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yet there is also data to support that the opt-out movement is really a movement of affluent and privileged whites. In fact the NAACP has come out strong in support of annual testing as a neccisity. Some go as far to call the importance of keeping annual testing a civil rights movement. I think the opinions of both NAACP wrong and those who look to accountability based reform as a means to improving disparities between students of color and their suburban peers are wrong. On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:17 AM Beth Ferholt wrote: > Here in the NYC area it is now a large and quickly growing, as well as a > diverse, parent movement. > > I am generally pessimistic, despite the time I have chosen to devote to > this movement, but there are three very good things to come out of it > immediately: > > The children see their parents and teachers fighting back, together, > because we care about them here and now -- we are present with them in > their daily lives, not telling them what will be good for them when they > grow up. > > May children enjoy joining the fight. Their tactics are very interesting, > worth us thinking about, even if they are also funny. A huge march I went > to this weekend had a sign that said: "Quomo, end testing, eat fresh > Pizza." > > The teachers I work with, no matter what their schools are allowing them to > do, feel deeply respected and supported by this movement, during this time > when most of them are wondering whether or not they can remain in their > chosen profession. > > Some of the NYC teachers are also opting their students out without the UFT > or parents' support, just risking their jobs for their students, and while > this cannot be widespread it creates empowering stories that > intergenerational groups enjoy telling and retelling. > > In NYC we find out on Wed. if students getting higher scores one year to > the next, on the tests, will now be the primary criteria for firing > teachers. We'll also find out if all schools of education with teaching > candidates who do not pass the new Pearson teacher exams (results are back > and almost the only teacher candidates passing identify as white) will be > closed down by Cuomo in three semesters. > > Du Bois was writing about this, it's not new, and there is also probably > little we can do to change the tide, but at least in NY things may look > very different for public schools preK-graduate school within a few short > years. > > We'll see if Cuomo's budget passes on April fools day, > > Beth > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Peter Farruggio > wrote: > > > Yes, it's still unsafe for teachers to boycott the tests in most places, > > although the local teachers union in Seattle coordinated such an action > > last year. But the opt out movement is led by parents, certainly with > > teachers supporting it in the background, and it has blossomed this > testing > > season. Certain administrators have been using bullying tactics, > including > > outright violations of parents' rights; but the resistance to incessant > > testing will continue to grow as parents organize and coordinate their > > actions nationwide. Education is and always has been political, and the > > politics have become harsher with the neoliberal push to privatize > schools > > and everything else. > > > > Teachers can and must play a role in defending democratic education, and > > that means helping to stop the testing madness. The best thing they can > do > > at this point is to find ways to educate parents about what is at stake > and > > how to exercise their parental rights. If that means conducting > clandestine > > informational meetings in church basements, so be it. > > > > See below > > > > > > > > http://unitedoptout.com/ > > > > http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=5528§ion=Article > > > > http://fairtest.org/get-involved/opting-out > > > > > > Pete Farruggio, PhD > > Associate Professor, Bilingual Education > > University of Texas Pan American > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:04 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Opt-out movement > > > > This is related to the other thread since one of my initial responses to > > the comments there was: As teachers, why not just stop paying attention > to > > all the testing and do the stuff that we know really matters? > > > > Here is one answer for why not: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ntklteK_c&annotation_id= > 54833ffb-0000-2b41-a517-001a11c17db2&feature=iv&src_vid=JM1ddULfdhU > > > > It is a video about a school in Chicago where 75% of the students opted > > out of taking a standardized test and the fallout that followed. > > > > Scary. > > > > -greg > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Assistant Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > From glassman.13@osu.edu Mon Mar 30 07:31:38 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 14:31:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBE09F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> Hi Greg, Do you have a link on this. I would be really interested to know what the thinking of the NAACP is and who is pushing this particular idea. You can also take it and flip it around. Why are affluent and privileged whites - the same group that is strongly pushing and materially benefitting from the emphasis on testing (who runs Pearson, who is pushing corporate charter schools) also looking to escape it? Why does Rahm Emmanuel put his children in the University of Chicago laboratory school? Why do so many of the people pushing testing putting their children in Sidwell Friends school? It raises some really disturbing questions I think. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Mcverry Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 10:21 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement Yet there is also data to support that the opt-out movement is really a movement of affluent and privileged whites. In fact the NAACP has come out strong in support of annual testing as a neccisity. Some go as far to call the importance of keeping annual testing a civil rights movement. I think the opinions of both NAACP wrong and those who look to accountability based reform as a means to improving disparities between students of color and their suburban peers are wrong. On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:17 AM Beth Ferholt wrote: > Here in the NYC area it is now a large and quickly growing, as well as > a diverse, parent movement. > > I am generally pessimistic, despite the time I have chosen to devote > to this movement, but there are three very good things to come out of > it > immediately: > > The children see their parents and teachers fighting back, together, > because we care about them here and now -- we are present with them in > their daily lives, not telling them what will be good for them when > they grow up. > > May children enjoy joining the fight. Their tactics are very > interesting, worth us thinking about, even if they are also funny. A > huge march I went to this weekend had a sign that said: "Quomo, end > testing, eat fresh Pizza." > > The teachers I work with, no matter what their schools are allowing > them to do, feel deeply respected and supported by this movement, > during this time when most of them are wondering whether or not they > can remain in their chosen profession. > > Some of the NYC teachers are also opting their students out without > the UFT or parents' support, just risking their jobs for their > students, and while this cannot be widespread it creates empowering > stories that intergenerational groups enjoy telling and retelling. > > In NYC we find out on Wed. if students getting higher scores one year > to the next, on the tests, will now be the primary criteria for firing > teachers. We'll also find out if all schools of education with > teaching candidates who do not pass the new Pearson teacher exams > (results are back and almost the only teacher candidates passing > identify as white) will be closed down by Cuomo in three semesters. > > Du Bois was writing about this, it's not new, and there is also > probably little we can do to change the tide, but at least in NY > things may look very different for public schools preK-graduate school > within a few short years. > > We'll see if Cuomo's budget passes on April fools day, > > Beth > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Peter Farruggio > > wrote: > > > Yes, it's still unsafe for teachers to boycott the tests in most > > places, although the local teachers union in Seattle coordinated > > such an action last year. But the opt out movement is led by > > parents, certainly with teachers supporting it in the background, > > and it has blossomed this > testing > > season. Certain administrators have been using bullying tactics, > including > > outright violations of parents' rights; but the resistance to > > incessant testing will continue to grow as parents organize and > > coordinate their actions nationwide. Education is and always has > > been political, and the politics have become harsher with the > > neoliberal push to privatize > schools > > and everything else. > > > > Teachers can and must play a role in defending democratic education, > > and that means helping to stop the testing madness. The best thing > > they can > do > > at this point is to find ways to educate parents about what is at > > stake > and > > how to exercise their parental rights. If that means conducting > clandestine > > informational meetings in church basements, so be it. > > > > See below > > > > > > > > http://unitedoptout.com/ > > > > http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=5528§ion=Article > > > > http://fairtest.org/get-involved/opting-out > > > > > > Pete Farruggio, PhD > > Associate Professor, Bilingual Education University of Texas Pan > > American > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:04 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Opt-out movement > > > > This is related to the other thread since one of my initial > > responses to the comments there was: As teachers, why not just stop > > paying attention > to > > all the testing and do the stuff that we know really matters? > > > > Here is one answer for why not: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ntklteK_c&annotation_id= > 54833ffb-0000-2b41-a517-001a11c17db2&feature=iv&src_vid=JM1ddULfdhU > > > > It is a video about a school in Chicago where 75% of the students > > opted out of taking a standardized test and the fallout that followed. > > > > Scary. > > > > -greg > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Assistant Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City > University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Mon Mar 30 07:45:08 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 14:45:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBE09F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBE09F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Here is a press release of the 20 civil rights groups who have signed on to annual testing: http://edtrust.org/press_release/more-than-20-civil-rights-groups-and-education-advocates-release-principles-for-esea-reauthorization-the-federal-role-must-be-honored-and-maintained/ The full text is available. For a nuanced, but with a strong pro-reform slant, here is a Fordham piece on opt-out: http://edexcellence.net/articles/opting-out-race-and-reform But I agree, too often #edreform is done to and not with. On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:34 AM Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hi Greg, > > Do you have a link on this. I would be really interested to know what the > thinking of the NAACP is and who is pushing this particular idea. > > You can also take it and flip it around. Why are affluent and privileged > whites - the same group that is strongly pushing and materially benefitting > from the emphasis on testing (who runs Pearson, who is pushing corporate > charter schools) also looking to escape it? Why does Rahm Emmanuel put his > children in the University of Chicago laboratory school? Why do so many of > the people pushing testing putting their children in Sidwell Friends > school? It raises some really disturbing questions I think. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Mcverry > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 10:21 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement > > Yet there is also data to support that the opt-out movement is really a > movement of affluent and privileged whites. > > In fact the NAACP has come out strong in support of annual testing as a > neccisity. Some go as far to call the importance of keeping annual testing > a civil rights movement. > > I think the opinions of both NAACP wrong and those who look to > accountability based reform as a means to improving disparities between > students of color and their suburban peers are wrong. > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:17 AM Beth Ferholt wrote: > > > Here in the NYC area it is now a large and quickly growing, as well as > > a diverse, parent movement. > > > > I am generally pessimistic, despite the time I have chosen to devote > > to this movement, but there are three very good things to come out of > > it > > immediately: > > > > The children see their parents and teachers fighting back, together, > > because we care about them here and now -- we are present with them in > > their daily lives, not telling them what will be good for them when > > they grow up. > > > > May children enjoy joining the fight. Their tactics are very > > interesting, worth us thinking about, even if they are also funny. A > > huge march I went to this weekend had a sign that said: "Quomo, end > > testing, eat fresh Pizza." > > > > The teachers I work with, no matter what their schools are allowing > > them to do, feel deeply respected and supported by this movement, > > during this time when most of them are wondering whether or not they > > can remain in their chosen profession. > > > > Some of the NYC teachers are also opting their students out without > > the UFT or parents' support, just risking their jobs for their > > students, and while this cannot be widespread it creates empowering > > stories that intergenerational groups enjoy telling and retelling. > > > > In NYC we find out on Wed. if students getting higher scores one year > > to the next, on the tests, will now be the primary criteria for firing > > teachers. We'll also find out if all schools of education with > > teaching candidates who do not pass the new Pearson teacher exams > > (results are back and almost the only teacher candidates passing > > identify as white) will be closed down by Cuomo in three semesters. > > > > Du Bois was writing about this, it's not new, and there is also > > probably little we can do to change the tide, but at least in NY > > things may look very different for public schools preK-graduate school > > within a few short years. > > > > We'll see if Cuomo's budget passes on April fools day, > > > > Beth > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Peter Farruggio > > > > wrote: > > > > > Yes, it's still unsafe for teachers to boycott the tests in most > > > places, although the local teachers union in Seattle coordinated > > > such an action last year. But the opt out movement is led by > > > parents, certainly with teachers supporting it in the background, > > > and it has blossomed this > > testing > > > season. Certain administrators have been using bullying tactics, > > including > > > outright violations of parents' rights; but the resistance to > > > incessant testing will continue to grow as parents organize and > > > coordinate their actions nationwide. Education is and always has > > > been political, and the politics have become harsher with the > > > neoliberal push to privatize > > schools > > > and everything else. > > > > > > Teachers can and must play a role in defending democratic education, > > > and that means helping to stop the testing madness. The best thing > > > they can > > do > > > at this point is to find ways to educate parents about what is at > > > stake > > and > > > how to exercise their parental rights. If that means conducting > > clandestine > > > informational meetings in church basements, so be it. > > > > > > See below > > > > > > > > > > > > http://unitedoptout.com/ > > > > > > http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=5528§ion=Article > > > > > > http://fairtest.org/get-involved/opting-out > > > > > > > > > Pete Farruggio, PhD > > > Associate Professor, Bilingual Education University of Texas Pan > > > American > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > > > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:04 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Opt-out movement > > > > > > This is related to the other thread since one of my initial > > > responses to the comments there was: As teachers, why not just stop > > > paying attention > > to > > > all the testing and do the stuff that we know really matters? > > > > > > Here is one answer for why not: > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ntklteK_c&annotation_id= > > 54833ffb-0000-2b41-a517-001a11c17db2&feature=iv&src_vid=JM1ddULfdhU > > > > > > It is a video about a school in Chicago where 75% of the students > > > opted out of taking a standardized test and the fallout that followed. > > > > > > Scary. > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City > > University of New York > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > From bferholt@gmail.com Mon Mar 30 07:48:48 2015 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 10:48:48 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBE09F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBE09F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: IN NYC it is not a white, rich movement. I think that rumor was started by Teach for America. Or it came out of other cities. Very hard to tell from what I've read but that's the news from the ground, here, Beth On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hi Greg, > > Do you have a link on this. I would be really interested to know what the > thinking of the NAACP is and who is pushing this particular idea. > > You can also take it and flip it around. Why are affluent and privileged > whites - the same group that is strongly pushing and materially benefitting > from the emphasis on testing (who runs Pearson, who is pushing corporate > charter schools) also looking to escape it? Why does Rahm Emmanuel put his > children in the University of Chicago laboratory school? Why do so many of > the people pushing testing putting their children in Sidwell Friends > school? It raises some really disturbing questions I think. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Mcverry > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 10:21 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement > > Yet there is also data to support that the opt-out movement is really a > movement of affluent and privileged whites. > > In fact the NAACP has come out strong in support of annual testing as a > neccisity. Some go as far to call the importance of keeping annual testing > a civil rights movement. > > I think the opinions of both NAACP wrong and those who look to > accountability based reform as a means to improving disparities between > students of color and their suburban peers are wrong. > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:17 AM Beth Ferholt wrote: > > > Here in the NYC area it is now a large and quickly growing, as well as > > a diverse, parent movement. > > > > I am generally pessimistic, despite the time I have chosen to devote > > to this movement, but there are three very good things to come out of > > it > > immediately: > > > > The children see their parents and teachers fighting back, together, > > because we care about them here and now -- we are present with them in > > their daily lives, not telling them what will be good for them when > > they grow up. > > > > May children enjoy joining the fight. Their tactics are very > > interesting, worth us thinking about, even if they are also funny. A > > huge march I went to this weekend had a sign that said: "Quomo, end > > testing, eat fresh Pizza." > > > > The teachers I work with, no matter what their schools are allowing > > them to do, feel deeply respected and supported by this movement, > > during this time when most of them are wondering whether or not they > > can remain in their chosen profession. > > > > Some of the NYC teachers are also opting their students out without > > the UFT or parents' support, just risking their jobs for their > > students, and while this cannot be widespread it creates empowering > > stories that intergenerational groups enjoy telling and retelling. > > > > In NYC we find out on Wed. if students getting higher scores one year > > to the next, on the tests, will now be the primary criteria for firing > > teachers. We'll also find out if all schools of education with > > teaching candidates who do not pass the new Pearson teacher exams > > (results are back and almost the only teacher candidates passing > > identify as white) will be closed down by Cuomo in three semesters. > > > > Du Bois was writing about this, it's not new, and there is also > > probably little we can do to change the tide, but at least in NY > > things may look very different for public schools preK-graduate school > > within a few short years. > > > > We'll see if Cuomo's budget passes on April fools day, > > > > Beth > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Peter Farruggio > > > > wrote: > > > > > Yes, it's still unsafe for teachers to boycott the tests in most > > > places, although the local teachers union in Seattle coordinated > > > such an action last year. But the opt out movement is led by > > > parents, certainly with teachers supporting it in the background, > > > and it has blossomed this > > testing > > > season. Certain administrators have been using bullying tactics, > > including > > > outright violations of parents' rights; but the resistance to > > > incessant testing will continue to grow as parents organize and > > > coordinate their actions nationwide. Education is and always has > > > been political, and the politics have become harsher with the > > > neoliberal push to privatize > > schools > > > and everything else. > > > > > > Teachers can and must play a role in defending democratic education, > > > and that means helping to stop the testing madness. The best thing > > > they can > > do > > > at this point is to find ways to educate parents about what is at > > > stake > > and > > > how to exercise their parental rights. If that means conducting > > clandestine > > > informational meetings in church basements, so be it. > > > > > > See below > > > > > > > > > > > > http://unitedoptout.com/ > > > > > > http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=5528§ion=Article > > > > > > http://fairtest.org/get-involved/opting-out > > > > > > > > > Pete Farruggio, PhD > > > Associate Professor, Bilingual Education University of Texas Pan > > > American > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > > > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:04 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Opt-out movement > > > > > > This is related to the other thread since one of my initial > > > responses to the comments there was: As teachers, why not just stop > > > paying attention > > to > > > all the testing and do the stuff that we know really matters? > > > > > > Here is one answer for why not: > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ntklteK_c&annotation_id= > > 54833ffb-0000-2b41-a517-001a11c17db2&feature=iv&src_vid=JM1ddULfdhU > > > > > > It is a video about a school in Chicago where 75% of the students > > > opted out of taking a standardized test and the fallout that followed. > > > > > > Scary. > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City > > University of New York > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Mar 30 07:56:35 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 08:56:35 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBE09F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Greg M, I recall Charles Payne (http://ssascholars.uchicago.edu/c-payne/) giving a talk back in 2006 or so about NCLB's testing policy. Although not a massive supporter of the overall project, he said that the one good thing from NCLB's testing program was that it meant that schools that were failing students could now be held accountable. I think that because these failing (and formerly forgotten) schools are disproportionately serving minority students, to get rid of testing would mean getting rid of the means by which schools could be held accountable. Testing gives hard numbers to say that certain schools are failing and need to change. For someone like me that feels like testing is of dubious value, that's a tough pill to swallow. -greg On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 8:45 AM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > Here is a press release of the 20 civil rights groups who have signed on to > annual testing: > > http://edtrust.org/press_release/more-than-20-civil-rights-groups-and-education-advocates-release-principles-for-esea-reauthorization-the-federal-role-must-be-honored-and-maintained/ > > The full text is available. > > For a nuanced, but with a strong pro-reform slant, here is a Fordham piece > on opt-out: http://edexcellence.net/articles/opting-out-race-and-reform > > But I agree, too often #edreform is done to and not with. > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:34 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: > > > Hi Greg, > > > > Do you have a link on this. I would be really interested to know what > the > > thinking of the NAACP is and who is pushing this particular idea. > > > > You can also take it and flip it around. Why are affluent and privileged > > whites - the same group that is strongly pushing and materially > benefitting > > from the emphasis on testing (who runs Pearson, who is pushing corporate > > charter schools) also looking to escape it? Why does Rahm Emmanuel put > his > > children in the University of Chicago laboratory school? Why do so many > of > > the people pushing testing putting their children in Sidwell Friends > > school? It raises some really disturbing questions I think. > > > > Michael > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Mcverry > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 10:21 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement > > > > Yet there is also data to support that the opt-out movement is really a > > movement of affluent and privileged whites. > > > > In fact the NAACP has come out strong in support of annual testing as a > > neccisity. Some go as far to call the importance of keeping annual > testing > > a civil rights movement. > > > > I think the opinions of both NAACP wrong and those who look to > > accountability based reform as a means to improving disparities between > > students of color and their suburban peers are wrong. > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:17 AM Beth Ferholt > wrote: > > > > > Here in the NYC area it is now a large and quickly growing, as well as > > > a diverse, parent movement. > > > > > > I am generally pessimistic, despite the time I have chosen to devote > > > to this movement, but there are three very good things to come out of > > > it > > > immediately: > > > > > > The children see their parents and teachers fighting back, together, > > > because we care about them here and now -- we are present with them in > > > their daily lives, not telling them what will be good for them when > > > they grow up. > > > > > > May children enjoy joining the fight. Their tactics are very > > > interesting, worth us thinking about, even if they are also funny. A > > > huge march I went to this weekend had a sign that said: "Quomo, end > > > testing, eat fresh Pizza." > > > > > > The teachers I work with, no matter what their schools are allowing > > > them to do, feel deeply respected and supported by this movement, > > > during this time when most of them are wondering whether or not they > > > can remain in their chosen profession. > > > > > > Some of the NYC teachers are also opting their students out without > > > the UFT or parents' support, just risking their jobs for their > > > students, and while this cannot be widespread it creates empowering > > > stories that intergenerational groups enjoy telling and retelling. > > > > > > In NYC we find out on Wed. if students getting higher scores one year > > > to the next, on the tests, will now be the primary criteria for firing > > > teachers. We'll also find out if all schools of education with > > > teaching candidates who do not pass the new Pearson teacher exams > > > (results are back and almost the only teacher candidates passing > > > identify as white) will be closed down by Cuomo in three semesters. > > > > > > Du Bois was writing about this, it's not new, and there is also > > > probably little we can do to change the tide, but at least in NY > > > things may look very different for public schools preK-graduate school > > > within a few short years. > > > > > > We'll see if Cuomo's budget passes on April fools day, > > > > > > Beth > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Peter Farruggio > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Yes, it's still unsafe for teachers to boycott the tests in most > > > > places, although the local teachers union in Seattle coordinated > > > > such an action last year. But the opt out movement is led by > > > > parents, certainly with teachers supporting it in the background, > > > > and it has blossomed this > > > testing > > > > season. Certain administrators have been using bullying tactics, > > > including > > > > outright violations of parents' rights; but the resistance to > > > > incessant testing will continue to grow as parents organize and > > > > coordinate their actions nationwide. Education is and always has > > > > been political, and the politics have become harsher with the > > > > neoliberal push to privatize > > > schools > > > > and everything else. > > > > > > > > Teachers can and must play a role in defending democratic education, > > > > and that means helping to stop the testing madness. The best thing > > > > they can > > > do > > > > at this point is to find ways to educate parents about what is at > > > > stake > > > and > > > > how to exercise their parental rights. If that means conducting > > > clandestine > > > > informational meetings in church basements, so be it. > > > > > > > > See below > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://unitedoptout.com/ > > > > > > > > http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=5528§ion=Article > > > > > > > > http://fairtest.org/get-involved/opting-out > > > > > > > > > > > > Pete Farruggio, PhD > > > > Associate Professor, Bilingual Education University of Texas Pan > > > > American > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > > > > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:04 PM > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Opt-out movement > > > > > > > > This is related to the other thread since one of my initial > > > > responses to the comments there was: As teachers, why not just stop > > > > paying attention > > > to > > > > all the testing and do the stuff that we know really matters? > > > > > > > > Here is one answer for why not: > > > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ntklteK_c&annotation_id= > > > 54833ffb-0000-2b41-a517-001a11c17db2&feature=iv&src_vid=JM1ddULfdhU > > > > > > > > It is a video about a school in Chicago where 75% of the students > > > > opted out of taking a standardized test and the fallout that > followed. > > > > > > > > Scary. > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Beth Ferholt > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City > > > University of New York > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From shirinvossoughi@gmail.com Mon Mar 30 07:57:39 2015 From: shirinvossoughi@gmail.com (Shirin Vossoughi) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 09:57:39 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBE09F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: > > > Thanks Beth. While the presence of white middle class communities in the > opt-out movement is significant (considering that problematic reforms > previously reserved for poor communities of color were not of concern), I > agree that it is it is inaccurate to say that the movement against testing > and privatization is homogenous: http://edushyster.com/?p=6113 And there is much written on the active co-optation of civil rights > language by so called education reformers (for example: > http://www.empowermagazine.com/beware-education-reformers-co-opt-language-civil-rights-movement/). > It is, in part, a well funded PR campaign. That is not to deny the > complexity of stances on the politics of "accountability" and the ways > they are interwoven with issues of equity, which I think deserve historical > and political analysis. But it is an important piece of the puzzle. > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Mar 30 08:00:12 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 08:00:12 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: References: <1427664212985.63755@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, thanks for the article. I wanted to focus on the word "intimacy" as a criteria of Winn's project or "work" by drawing attention to Richard Palmer's manifesto for literacy theory which he pursues in his book Hermeneutics. [see page 277]. Richard is making a distinction between literature as "object" and literacy as "works". In Buber's familiar I-Thou terminology, the difference between literacy as I-It [object] and I-Thou [work]. . Richard states: The work when conceived as an object [instead of a work] becomes simply an entity ABOUT which knowledge is acquired through spatializing ideation, dissection, and analysis. Such an approach represents the transposition into criticism of a technological approach. Larry On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 2:58 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > First a request. I cannot find the Winn article on my onbox. Would someone > please repost. > > Peter, I will give a personal example that supports your description of > the constraints that teaching in school engenders. When AERA came to > Vancouver this international forum was highlighted in Vancouver schools > inviting participation by teachers. > However, at the actual conference I noticed that most of the participants > were from university departments and rarely did I meet a local teacher > taking a professional day to attend the conference. > > Teacher counsellors in Vancouver receive $75 a year for professional > development and to go to a conference is an act of dedication. > > If, as Peter described, a teacher besides teaching, takes on other duties > in the community, then the opportunity to also "reflect" on their practice > becomes an act of personal dedication committed to individually. The > opportunity for front line teachers to gather regularly together and > collectively reflect on their practice is even rarer [and more precious]. > > Mike, recently you reflected on a professor who has tenure and a home and > financial concerens having constraints on how they approach their work. > What Peter is highlighting is the constraints on "reflective time". > In some ways a university setting as a social situation of development is > far removed from the community of educators who they are addressing. When > you ask how to generalize the understandings of Winn and the critique > of current practices, the lack of opportunity for "ongoing" shared > reflective practice within "communities of learning" [the latest buzz > words] is a constraint that is real and limiting. > > Larry > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > >> OK, now I understand the boundaries that you mean, mike. >> >> I thought you meant the institutional boundaries as communities of >> practice, not personal boundaries of the teachers inside and outside the >> institution. >> >> I can see that boundaries around teaching are important to keep intact in >> that sense. Teachers are already so overloaded, that there has to be some >> way of drawing out appropriate interactions that are "allowable" and >> "finite" and perhaps this suggests that there is a study of patterns of >> interactions in an ethnographic sense to decide which are the optimum ones >> and then these can become sorts of touchstones or guideposts that can be >> elaborated upon over time? >> >> Of course I'm not thinking as a teacher, but as a designer of >> interactions. Perhaps one of the reasons outside activities are so >> demanding is because of a lack of naming and defining these interactions. >> >> Also I'd like to add that it can also be the case that activities that >> are creative, such as poetry slams, are enormously rewarding and so they >> can become a kind of fuel for everyone involved, as is the case where >> joyful undertakings take place and takeover the place. Because of this >> energy-creating force, it's hard to see this as work that requires >> boundaries, and it's even harder to see it as a sacrifice, as may be the >> case when marking papers for 150 students. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> > > From pfarruggio@utpa.edu Mon Mar 30 08:36:16 2015 From: pfarruggio@utpa.edu (Peter Farruggio) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 15:36:16 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBE09F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Be very suspicious of civil rights groups that support the status quo of test and punish neoliberal policies. Ravitch here shows that ALL of the 20 signatories are funded by the Gates Foundation http://dianeravitch.net/2013/08/29/do-civil-rights-groups-want-more-high-stakes-testing/ -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Mcverry Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:45 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement Here is a press release of the 20 civil rights groups who have signed on to annual testing: http://edtrust.org/press_release/more-than-20-civil-rights-groups-and-education-advocates-release-principles-for-esea-reauthorization-the-federal-role-must-be-honored-and-maintained/ The full text is available. For a nuanced, but with a strong pro-reform slant, here is a Fordham piece on opt-out: http://edexcellence.net/articles/opting-out-race-and-reform But I agree, too often #edreform is done to and not with. On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:34 AM Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hi Greg, > > Do you have a link on this. I would be really interested to know what > the thinking of the NAACP is and who is pushing this particular idea. > > You can also take it and flip it around. Why are affluent and > privileged whites - the same group that is strongly pushing and > materially benefitting from the emphasis on testing (who runs Pearson, > who is pushing corporate charter schools) also looking to escape it? > Why does Rahm Emmanuel put his children in the University of Chicago > laboratory school? Why do so many of the people pushing testing putting their children in Sidwell Friends > school? It raises some really disturbing questions I think. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Mcverry > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 10:21 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement > > Yet there is also data to support that the opt-out movement is really > a movement of affluent and privileged whites. > > In fact the NAACP has come out strong in support of annual testing as > a neccisity. Some go as far to call the importance of keeping annual > testing a civil rights movement. > > I think the opinions of both NAACP wrong and those who look to > accountability based reform as a means to improving disparities > between students of color and their suburban peers are wrong. > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:17 AM Beth Ferholt wrote: > > > Here in the NYC area it is now a large and quickly growing, as well > > as a diverse, parent movement. > > > > I am generally pessimistic, despite the time I have chosen to devote > > to this movement, but there are three very good things to come out > > of it > > immediately: > > > > The children see their parents and teachers fighting back, together, > > because we care about them here and now -- we are present with them > > in their daily lives, not telling them what will be good for them > > when they grow up. > > > > May children enjoy joining the fight. Their tactics are very > > interesting, worth us thinking about, even if they are also funny. > > A huge march I went to this weekend had a sign that said: "Quomo, > > end testing, eat fresh Pizza." > > > > The teachers I work with, no matter what their schools are allowing > > them to do, feel deeply respected and supported by this movement, > > during this time when most of them are wondering whether or not they > > can remain in their chosen profession. > > > > Some of the NYC teachers are also opting their students out without > > the UFT or parents' support, just risking their jobs for their > > students, and while this cannot be widespread it creates empowering > > stories that intergenerational groups enjoy telling and retelling. > > > > In NYC we find out on Wed. if students getting higher scores one > > year to the next, on the tests, will now be the primary criteria for > > firing teachers. We'll also find out if all schools of education > > with teaching candidates who do not pass the new Pearson teacher > > exams (results are back and almost the only teacher candidates > > passing identify as white) will be closed down by Cuomo in three semesters. > > > > Du Bois was writing about this, it's not new, and there is also > > probably little we can do to change the tide, but at least in NY > > things may look very different for public schools preK-graduate > > school within a few short years. > > > > We'll see if Cuomo's budget passes on April fools day, > > > > Beth > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Peter Farruggio > > > > wrote: > > > > > Yes, it's still unsafe for teachers to boycott the tests in most > > > places, although the local teachers union in Seattle coordinated > > > such an action last year. But the opt out movement is led by > > > parents, certainly with teachers supporting it in the background, > > > and it has blossomed this > > testing > > > season. Certain administrators have been using bullying tactics, > > including > > > outright violations of parents' rights; but the resistance to > > > incessant testing will continue to grow as parents organize and > > > coordinate their actions nationwide. Education is and always has > > > been political, and the politics have become harsher with the > > > neoliberal push to privatize > > schools > > > and everything else. > > > > > > Teachers can and must play a role in defending democratic > > > education, and that means helping to stop the testing madness. The > > > best thing they can > > do > > > at this point is to find ways to educate parents about what is at > > > stake > > and > > > how to exercise their parental rights. If that means conducting > > clandestine > > > informational meetings in church basements, so be it. > > > > > > See below > > > > > > > > > > > > http://unitedoptout.com/ > > > > > > http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=5528§ion=Articl > > > e > > > > > > http://fairtest.org/get-involved/opting-out > > > > > > > > > Pete Farruggio, PhD > > > Associate Professor, Bilingual Education University of Texas Pan > > > American > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > > > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:04 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Opt-out movement > > > > > > This is related to the other thread since one of my initial > > > responses to the comments there was: As teachers, why not just > > > stop paying attention > > to > > > all the testing and do the stuff that we know really matters? > > > > > > Here is one answer for why not: > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ntklteK_c&annotation_id= > > 54833ffb-0000-2b41-a517-001a11c17db2&feature=iv&src_vid=JM1ddULfdhU > > > > > > It is a video about a school in Chicago where 75% of the students > > > opted out of taking a standardized test and the fallout that followed. > > > > > > Scary. > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, > > City University of New York > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Mar 30 10:26:07 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:26:07 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBE09F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Interesting Peter, the line that showed up on my gmail list was: "Be very suspicious of civil rights groups." Seems a strange landscape we are navigating. ?-greg On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Peter Farruggio wrote: > Be very suspicious of civil rights groups that support the status quo of > test and punish neoliberal policies. Ravitch here shows that ALL of the 20 > signatories are funded by the Gates Foundation > > > http://dianeravitch.net/2013/08/29/do-civil-rights-groups-want-more-high-stakes-testing/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Mcverry > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:45 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement > > Here is a press release of the 20 civil rights groups who have signed on > to annual testing: > > http://edtrust.org/press_release/more-than-20-civil-rights-groups-and-education-advocates-release-principles-for-esea-reauthorization-the-federal-role-must-be-honored-and-maintained/ > > The full text is available. > > For a nuanced, but with a strong pro-reform slant, here is a Fordham piece > on opt-out: http://edexcellence.net/articles/opting-out-race-and-reform > > But I agree, too often #edreform is done to and not with. > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:34 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: > > > Hi Greg, > > > > Do you have a link on this. I would be really interested to know what > > the thinking of the NAACP is and who is pushing this particular idea. > > > > You can also take it and flip it around. Why are affluent and > > privileged whites - the same group that is strongly pushing and > > materially benefitting from the emphasis on testing (who runs Pearson, > > who is pushing corporate charter schools) also looking to escape it? > > Why does Rahm Emmanuel put his children in the University of Chicago > > laboratory school? Why do so many of the people pushing testing putting > their children in Sidwell Friends > > school? It raises some really disturbing questions I think. > > > > Michael > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Mcverry > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 10:21 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement > > > > Yet there is also data to support that the opt-out movement is really > > a movement of affluent and privileged whites. > > > > In fact the NAACP has come out strong in support of annual testing as > > a neccisity. Some go as far to call the importance of keeping annual > > testing a civil rights movement. > > > > I think the opinions of both NAACP wrong and those who look to > > accountability based reform as a means to improving disparities > > between students of color and their suburban peers are wrong. > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:17 AM Beth Ferholt > wrote: > > > > > Here in the NYC area it is now a large and quickly growing, as well > > > as a diverse, parent movement. > > > > > > I am generally pessimistic, despite the time I have chosen to devote > > > to this movement, but there are three very good things to come out > > > of it > > > immediately: > > > > > > The children see their parents and teachers fighting back, together, > > > because we care about them here and now -- we are present with them > > > in their daily lives, not telling them what will be good for them > > > when they grow up. > > > > > > May children enjoy joining the fight. Their tactics are very > > > interesting, worth us thinking about, even if they are also funny. > > > A huge march I went to this weekend had a sign that said: "Quomo, > > > end testing, eat fresh Pizza." > > > > > > The teachers I work with, no matter what their schools are allowing > > > them to do, feel deeply respected and supported by this movement, > > > during this time when most of them are wondering whether or not they > > > can remain in their chosen profession. > > > > > > Some of the NYC teachers are also opting their students out without > > > the UFT or parents' support, just risking their jobs for their > > > students, and while this cannot be widespread it creates empowering > > > stories that intergenerational groups enjoy telling and retelling. > > > > > > In NYC we find out on Wed. if students getting higher scores one > > > year to the next, on the tests, will now be the primary criteria for > > > firing teachers. We'll also find out if all schools of education > > > with teaching candidates who do not pass the new Pearson teacher > > > exams (results are back and almost the only teacher candidates > > > passing identify as white) will be closed down by Cuomo in three > semesters. > > > > > > Du Bois was writing about this, it's not new, and there is also > > > probably little we can do to change the tide, but at least in NY > > > things may look very different for public schools preK-graduate > > > school within a few short years. > > > > > > We'll see if Cuomo's budget passes on April fools day, > > > > > > Beth > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Peter Farruggio > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Yes, it's still unsafe for teachers to boycott the tests in most > > > > places, although the local teachers union in Seattle coordinated > > > > such an action last year. But the opt out movement is led by > > > > parents, certainly with teachers supporting it in the background, > > > > and it has blossomed this > > > testing > > > > season. Certain administrators have been using bullying tactics, > > > including > > > > outright violations of parents' rights; but the resistance to > > > > incessant testing will continue to grow as parents organize and > > > > coordinate their actions nationwide. Education is and always has > > > > been political, and the politics have become harsher with the > > > > neoliberal push to privatize > > > schools > > > > and everything else. > > > > > > > > Teachers can and must play a role in defending democratic > > > > education, and that means helping to stop the testing madness. The > > > > best thing they can > > > do > > > > at this point is to find ways to educate parents about what is at > > > > stake > > > and > > > > how to exercise their parental rights. If that means conducting > > > clandestine > > > > informational meetings in church basements, so be it. > > > > > > > > See below > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://unitedoptout.com/ > > > > > > > > http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=5528§ion=Articl > > > > e > > > > > > > > http://fairtest.org/get-involved/opting-out > > > > > > > > > > > > Pete Farruggio, PhD > > > > Associate Professor, Bilingual Education University of Texas Pan > > > > American > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > > > > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:04 PM > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Opt-out movement > > > > > > > > This is related to the other thread since one of my initial > > > > responses to the comments there was: As teachers, why not just > > > > stop paying attention > > > to > > > > all the testing and do the stuff that we know really matters? > > > > > > > > Here is one answer for why not: > > > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ntklteK_c&annotation_id= > > > 54833ffb-0000-2b41-a517-001a11c17db2&feature=iv&src_vid=JM1ddULfdhU > > > > > > > > It is a video about a school in Chicago where 75% of the students > > > > opted out of taking a standardized test and the fallout that > followed. > > > > > > > > Scary. > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Beth Ferholt > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, > > > City University of New York > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Mon Mar 30 11:57:13 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 18:57:13 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBE09F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: I doubt the NAACP support for annual testing has to do with Gates funding. Many believe that before the testing the inequities in education were pushed under the rug. On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:30 PM Greg Thompson wrote: > Interesting Peter, the line that showed up on my gmail list was: > > "Be very suspicious of civil rights groups." > > Seems a strange landscape we are navigating. > > ?-greg > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Peter Farruggio > wrote: > > > Be very suspicious of civil rights groups that support the status quo of > > test and punish neoliberal policies. Ravitch here shows that ALL of the > 20 > > signatories are funded by the Gates Foundation > > > > > > http://dianeravitch.net/2013/08/29/do-civil-rights-groups- > want-more-high-stakes-testing/ > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Mcverry > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:45 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement > > > > Here is a press release of the 20 civil rights groups who have signed on > > to annual testing: > > > > http://edtrust.org/press_release/more-than-20-civil- > rights-groups-and-education-advocates-release-principles- > for-esea-reauthorization-the-federal-role-must-be-honored-and-maintained/ > > > > The full text is available. > > > > For a nuanced, but with a strong pro-reform slant, here is a Fordham > piece > > on opt-out: http://edexcellence.net/articles/opting-out-race-and-reform > > > > But I agree, too often #edreform is done to and not with. > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:34 AM Glassman, Michael > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Greg, > > > > > > Do you have a link on this. I would be really interested to know what > > > the thinking of the NAACP is and who is pushing this particular idea. > > > > > > You can also take it and flip it around. Why are affluent and > > > privileged whites - the same group that is strongly pushing and > > > materially benefitting from the emphasis on testing (who runs Pearson, > > > who is pushing corporate charter schools) also looking to escape it? > > > Why does Rahm Emmanuel put his children in the University of Chicago > > > laboratory school? Why do so many of the people pushing testing > putting > > their children in Sidwell Friends > > > school? It raises some really disturbing questions I think. > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Mcverry > > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 10:21 AM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement > > > > > > Yet there is also data to support that the opt-out movement is really > > > a movement of affluent and privileged whites. > > > > > > In fact the NAACP has come out strong in support of annual testing as > > > a neccisity. Some go as far to call the importance of keeping annual > > > testing a civil rights movement. > > > > > > I think the opinions of both NAACP wrong and those who look to > > > accountability based reform as a means to improving disparities > > > between students of color and their suburban peers are wrong. > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:17 AM Beth Ferholt > > wrote: > > > > > > > Here in the NYC area it is now a large and quickly growing, as well > > > > as a diverse, parent movement. > > > > > > > > I am generally pessimistic, despite the time I have chosen to devote > > > > to this movement, but there are three very good things to come out > > > > of it > > > > immediately: > > > > > > > > The children see their parents and teachers fighting back, together, > > > > because we care about them here and now -- we are present with them > > > > in their daily lives, not telling them what will be good for them > > > > when they grow up. > > > > > > > > May children enjoy joining the fight. Their tactics are very > > > > interesting, worth us thinking about, even if they are also funny. > > > > A huge march I went to this weekend had a sign that said: "Quomo, > > > > end testing, eat fresh Pizza." > > > > > > > > The teachers I work with, no matter what their schools are allowing > > > > them to do, feel deeply respected and supported by this movement, > > > > during this time when most of them are wondering whether or not they > > > > can remain in their chosen profession. > > > > > > > > Some of the NYC teachers are also opting their students out without > > > > the UFT or parents' support, just risking their jobs for their > > > > students, and while this cannot be widespread it creates empowering > > > > stories that intergenerational groups enjoy telling and retelling. > > > > > > > > In NYC we find out on Wed. if students getting higher scores one > > > > year to the next, on the tests, will now be the primary criteria for > > > > firing teachers. We'll also find out if all schools of education > > > > with teaching candidates who do not pass the new Pearson teacher > > > > exams (results are back and almost the only teacher candidates > > > > passing identify as white) will be closed down by Cuomo in three > > semesters. > > > > > > > > Du Bois was writing about this, it's not new, and there is also > > > > probably little we can do to change the tide, but at least in NY > > > > things may look very different for public schools preK-graduate > > > > school within a few short years. > > > > > > > > We'll see if Cuomo's budget passes on April fools day, > > > > > > > > Beth > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Peter Farruggio > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Yes, it's still unsafe for teachers to boycott the tests in most > > > > > places, although the local teachers union in Seattle coordinated > > > > > such an action last year. But the opt out movement is led by > > > > > parents, certainly with teachers supporting it in the background, > > > > > and it has blossomed this > > > > testing > > > > > season. Certain administrators have been using bullying tactics, > > > > including > > > > > outright violations of parents' rights; but the resistance to > > > > > incessant testing will continue to grow as parents organize and > > > > > coordinate their actions nationwide. Education is and always has > > > > > been political, and the politics have become harsher with the > > > > > neoliberal push to privatize > > > > schools > > > > > and everything else. > > > > > > > > > > Teachers can and must play a role in defending democratic > > > > > education, and that means helping to stop the testing madness. The > > > > > best thing they can > > > > do > > > > > at this point is to find ways to educate parents about what is at > > > > > stake > > > > and > > > > > how to exercise their parental rights. If that means conducting > > > > clandestine > > > > > informational meetings in church basements, so be it. > > > > > > > > > > See below > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://unitedoptout.com/ > > > > > > > > > > http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=5528§ion=Articl > > > > > e > > > > > > > > > > http://fairtest.org/get-involved/opting-out > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pete Farruggio, PhD > > > > > Associate Professor, Bilingual Education University of Texas Pan > > > > > American > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > > > > > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:04 PM > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Opt-out movement > > > > > > > > > > This is related to the other thread since one of my initial > > > > > responses to the comments there was: As teachers, why not just > > > > > stop paying attention > > > > to > > > > > all the testing and do the stuff that we know really matters? > > > > > > > > > > Here is one answer for why not: > > > > > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ntklteK_c&annotation_id= > > > > 54833ffb-0000-2b41-a517-001a11c17db2&feature=iv&src_vid=JM1ddULfdhU > > > > > > > > > > It is a video about a school in Chicago where 75% of the students > > > > > opted out of taking a standardized test and the fallout that > > followed. > > > > > > > > > > Scary. > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, > > > > City University of New York > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From wgranrube@gmail.com Mon Mar 30 12:40:04 2015 From: wgranrube@gmail.com (Will G-R) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 15:40:04 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBE09F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Re Greg T: *Although not a massive supporter of the overall project, he said that the one good thing from NCLB's testing program was that it meant that schools that were failing students could now be held accountable. ... Testing gives hard numbers to say that certain schools are failing and need to change.* Of course, one could take the view that whether schools that serve the poor are failing is utterly beside the point -- or in other words, that the fact that they are failing is *precisely* the point. To my money, the "education reform" perspective worth following here isn't the earnest left-liberal policy wonkery of someone like Ravitch, but a more cynical, leftist-flavored take like that of David Labaree's "Someone Has to Fail: The Zero-Sum Game of Public Schooling". Here's from the first few paragraphs of Labaree's intro: *When people continually repeat behaviors that turn out badly for them, we consider it a sign of mental illness. In this sense, then, the American tendency to resort to schooling is less a strategy than a syndrome. We have set up our school system for failure by asking it to fix all of our most pressing social problems, which we are unwilling to address more directly through political action rather than educational gesture. When it fails, we fiddle with the system and try again. Both as a society and as individuals, we continue to vest our greatest hopes in an institutions that is clearly unsuited to realizing them.* cf. this from the first few paragraphs of Oscar Wilde's "Soul of Man...": *The majority of people spoil their lives by an unhealthy and exaggerated altruism ? are forced, indeed, so to spoil them. They find themselves surrounded by hideous poverty, by hideous ugliness, by hideous starvation. It is inevitable that they should be strongly moved by all this. The emotions of man are stirred more quickly than man?s intelligence; and, as I pointed out some time ago in an article on the function of criticism, it is much more easy to have sympathy with suffering than it is to have sympathy with thought. Accordingly, with admirable, though misdirected intentions, they very seriously and very sentimentally set themselves to the task of remedying the evils that they see. But their remedies do not cure the disease: they merely prolong it. Indeed, their remedies are part of the disease. They try to solve the problem of poverty, for instance, by keeping the poor alive; or, in the case of a very advanced school, by amusing the poor. But this is not a solution: it is an aggravation of the difficulty. The proper aim is to try and reconstruct society on such a basis that poverty will be impossible. And the altruistic virtues have really prevented the carrying out of this aim. Just as the worst slave-owners were those who were kind to their slaves, and so prevented the horror of the system being realised by those who suffered from it, and understood by those who contemplated it, so, in the present state of things in England, the people who do most harm are the people who try to do most good* On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > I doubt the NAACP support for annual testing has to do with Gates funding. > Many believe that before the testing the inequities in education were > pushed under the rug. > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:30 PM Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Interesting Peter, the line that showed up on my gmail list was: > > > > "Be very suspicious of civil rights groups." > > > > Seems a strange landscape we are navigating. > > > > ?-greg > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Peter Farruggio > > wrote: > > > > > Be very suspicious of civil rights groups that support the status quo > of > > > test and punish neoliberal policies. Ravitch here shows that ALL of the > > 20 > > > signatories are funded by the Gates Foundation > > > > > > > > > http://dianeravitch.net/2013/08/29/do-civil-rights-groups- > > want-more-high-stakes-testing/ > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Mcverry > > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:45 AM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement > > > > > > Here is a press release of the 20 civil rights groups who have signed > on > > > to annual testing: > > > > > > http://edtrust.org/press_release/more-than-20-civil- > > rights-groups-and-education-advocates-release-principles- > > for-esea-reauthorization-the-federal-role-must-be-honored-and-maintained/ > > > > > > The full text is available. > > > > > > For a nuanced, but with a strong pro-reform slant, here is a Fordham > > piece > > > on opt-out: > http://edexcellence.net/articles/opting-out-race-and-reform > > > > > > But I agree, too often #edreform is done to and not with. > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:34 AM Glassman, Michael < > glassman.13@osu.edu> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Greg, > > > > > > > > Do you have a link on this. I would be really interested to know > what > > > > the thinking of the NAACP is and who is pushing this particular idea. > > > > > > > > You can also take it and flip it around. Why are affluent and > > > > privileged whites - the same group that is strongly pushing and > > > > materially benefitting from the emphasis on testing (who runs > Pearson, > > > > who is pushing corporate charter schools) also looking to escape it? > > > > Why does Rahm Emmanuel put his children in the University of Chicago > > > > laboratory school? Why do so many of the people pushing testing > > putting > > > their children in Sidwell Friends > > > > school? It raises some really disturbing questions I think. > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > > > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Mcverry > > > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 10:21 AM > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement > > > > > > > > Yet there is also data to support that the opt-out movement is really > > > > a movement of affluent and privileged whites. > > > > > > > > In fact the NAACP has come out strong in support of annual testing as > > > > a neccisity. Some go as far to call the importance of keeping annual > > > > testing a civil rights movement. > > > > > > > > I think the opinions of both NAACP wrong and those who look to > > > > accountability based reform as a means to improving disparities > > > > between students of color and their suburban peers are wrong. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:17 AM Beth Ferholt > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Here in the NYC area it is now a large and quickly growing, as well > > > > > as a diverse, parent movement. > > > > > > > > > > I am generally pessimistic, despite the time I have chosen to > devote > > > > > to this movement, but there are three very good things to come out > > > > > of it > > > > > immediately: > > > > > > > > > > The children see their parents and teachers fighting back, > together, > > > > > because we care about them here and now -- we are present with them > > > > > in their daily lives, not telling them what will be good for them > > > > > when they grow up. > > > > > > > > > > May children enjoy joining the fight. Their tactics are very > > > > > interesting, worth us thinking about, even if they are also funny. > > > > > A huge march I went to this weekend had a sign that said: "Quomo, > > > > > end testing, eat fresh Pizza." > > > > > > > > > > The teachers I work with, no matter what their schools are allowing > > > > > them to do, feel deeply respected and supported by this movement, > > > > > during this time when most of them are wondering whether or not > they > > > > > can remain in their chosen profession. > > > > > > > > > > Some of the NYC teachers are also opting their students out without > > > > > the UFT or parents' support, just risking their jobs for their > > > > > students, and while this cannot be widespread it creates empowering > > > > > stories that intergenerational groups enjoy telling and retelling. > > > > > > > > > > In NYC we find out on Wed. if students getting higher scores one > > > > > year to the next, on the tests, will now be the primary criteria > for > > > > > firing teachers. We'll also find out if all schools of education > > > > > with teaching candidates who do not pass the new Pearson teacher > > > > > exams (results are back and almost the only teacher candidates > > > > > passing identify as white) will be closed down by Cuomo in three > > > semesters. > > > > > > > > > > Du Bois was writing about this, it's not new, and there is also > > > > > probably little we can do to change the tide, but at least in NY > > > > > things may look very different for public schools preK-graduate > > > > > school within a few short years. > > > > > > > > > > We'll see if Cuomo's budget passes on April fools day, > > > > > > > > > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Peter Farruggio > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it's still unsafe for teachers to boycott the tests in most > > > > > > places, although the local teachers union in Seattle coordinated > > > > > > such an action last year. But the opt out movement is led by > > > > > > parents, certainly with teachers supporting it in the background, > > > > > > and it has blossomed this > > > > > testing > > > > > > season. Certain administrators have been using bullying tactics, > > > > > including > > > > > > outright violations of parents' rights; but the resistance to > > > > > > incessant testing will continue to grow as parents organize and > > > > > > coordinate their actions nationwide. Education is and always has > > > > > > been political, and the politics have become harsher with the > > > > > > neoliberal push to privatize > > > > > schools > > > > > > and everything else. > > > > > > > > > > > > Teachers can and must play a role in defending democratic > > > > > > education, and that means helping to stop the testing madness. > The > > > > > > best thing they can > > > > > do > > > > > > at this point is to find ways to educate parents about what is at > > > > > > stake > > > > > and > > > > > > how to exercise their parental rights. If that means conducting > > > > > clandestine > > > > > > informational meetings in church basements, so be it. > > > > > > > > > > > > See below > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://unitedoptout.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=5528§ion=Articl > > > > > > e > > > > > > > > > > > > http://fairtest.org/get-involved/opting-out > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pete Farruggio, PhD > > > > > > Associate Professor, Bilingual Education University of Texas Pan > > > > > > American > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:04 PM > > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Opt-out movement > > > > > > > > > > > > This is related to the other thread since one of my initial > > > > > > responses to the comments there was: As teachers, why not just > > > > > > stop paying attention > > > > > to > > > > > > all the testing and do the stuff that we know really matters? > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is one answer for why not: > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ntklteK_c&annotation_id= > > > > > 54833ffb-0000-2b41-a517-001a11c17db2&feature=iv&src_vid=JM1ddULfdhU > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a video about a school in Chicago where 75% of the students > > > > > > opted out of taking a standardized test and the fallout that > > > followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Scary. > > > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, > > > > > City University of New York > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > From smago@uga.edu Mon Mar 30 13:02:00 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 20:02:00 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: References: <1427664212985.63755@unm.edu> Message-ID: I'm going to do some exploratory thinking here, so please pardon the half-baked nature of what follows (half-baked is a long-time value on xmca in its embrace of thoughts in emergent process). Winn's article has gotten little traction as a discussion topic, so I'll combine it with something that's gotten even less attention, an article that someone (Annalisa, I think) sent awhile back and that I'm re-attaching here. I'm focusing on the early section about Ilyenkov's notion of the ideal, which I can't say I completely grasp. So please bear with me as I grope my way through this effort to link the two articles. I'll paste in the section of the attachment that I see as potentially, if I'm getting this right, helpful in understanding Winn's essay: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: From_the_History_of_Soviet_Philosohy-libre.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 95106 bytes Desc: From_the_History_of_Soviet_Philosohy-libre.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150330/6b554152/attachment.pdf From smago@uga.edu Mon Mar 30 13:08:49 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 20:08:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space References: <1427664212985.63755@unm.edu> Message-ID: OK, I hit send accidentally. To continue: -----Original Message----- From: Peter Smagorinsky Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 4:02 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space I'm going to do some exploratory thinking here, so please pardon the half-baked nature of what follows (half-baked is a long-time value on xmca in its embrace of thoughts in emergent process). Winn's article has gotten little traction as a discussion topic, so I'll combine it with something that's gotten even less attention, an article that someone (Annalisa, I think) sent awhile back and that I'm re-attaching here. I'm focusing on the early section about Ilyenkov's notion of the ideal, which I can't say I completely grasp. So please bear with me as I grope my way through this effort to link the two articles. I'll paste in the section of the attachment that I see as potentially, if I'm getting this right, helpful in understanding Winn's essay: Although there is a considerable literature in the West that focuses on the r?le of language in the social production of consciousness, what sets Ilyenkov apart is his distinction between language and the ideal. For Ilyenkov, language is not the ideal, but its ?objectified being?,27 its material form. he ideal does not exist in language for Ilyenkov, or in other material phenomena, but in forms of human activity. His entry on the ideal in the 1962 encyclop?dia-article defines it as ?the subjective image of objective reality, i.e. a reflection of the external world in forms of human activity, in forms of its consciousness and will?.28 One can think of the ideal as the significance that matter assumes in the process of its transformation by human activity. In other words, it is only in-and-through human activity that matter takes on the character of an object with significance. To be clear, Ilyenkov was not referring only to parts of the material world that individuals directly transform, but to all matter that society comes ?in contact? with. Idealisation is, for him, a social phenomenon. In the same encyclop?dia-entry, he wrote: An ideal image, say of bread, may arise in the imagination of a hungry man or of a baker. In the head of a satiated man occupied with building a house, ideal bread does not arise. But if we take society as a whole, ideal bread and ideal houses are always in existence, as well as any ideal object with which humanity is concerned in the process of production and reproduction of its real, material life. his includes the ideal sky, as an object of astronomy, as a ?natural calendar?, a clock, and compass. In consequence of that, all of nature is idealised in humanity and not just that part which it immediately produces or reproduces or consumes in a practical way.29 >From this perspective, all matter appears in individual consciousness already transformed and idealised by the activity of previous generations, and this ideal informs the individual?s activity in the present. OK, back to me. What I'm wondering is this: Is "literacy" idealized differently in the two communities of practice (school and outside-school)? In school, at least formally, literacy is idealized as the "proper" use of language in textual production and composition, with only the most formal versions acceptable as evidence of literate performance. Adherence to formal rules is the only way to meet the scholastic ideal. At the same time, as soon as kids leave class and go into the hall, other ideals become available, at least for 5 minutes of passing time. Outside school, the whole world of literacy possibilities become available, with many ideals to guide production. The discourse genres that govern spoken word performances for the communities of practice that Winn focuses on are one possibility, but there are countless possibilities that suit different trajectories. Well, hope that makes some sense. I'm entirely open to the possibility that I've misunderstood Ilyenkov in seeking a way to understand him via Winn. As we say in the South: What do y'all think? p From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Mar 30 14:27:54 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 14:27:54 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: References: <1427664212985.63755@unm.edu> Message-ID: Peter- At first I didn't get at all what the connection between the discussion of Ilyenkov and Maisha's work, but I think its a great idea to discuss the question you pose. Is "literacy" idealized differently in the two communities of practice (school and outside-school)? I have difficulty keeping straight with ideas such as "subjective image of reality" but there seems to be little doubt that there are different values being embodied in standard school literacy practices and the multi-modal, multi-generational practices in the sites that Maisha describes. Seems like this could be a useful lens for addressing my question about how.when.under-what-conditions the practices and associated values of an evening get together at a community center can be at least part of a high school educational curriculum. Only sometimes under special conditions seems to be the answer. Is that answer accepted in Ed schools these days? mike On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > OK, I hit send accidentally. To continue: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Smagorinsky > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 4:02 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of > Youth across Time and Space > > I'm going to do some exploratory thinking here, so please pardon the > half-baked nature of what follows (half-baked is a long-time value on xmca > in its embrace of thoughts in emergent process). > > Winn's article has gotten little traction as a discussion topic, so I'll > combine it with something that's gotten even less attention, an article > that someone (Annalisa, I think) sent awhile back and that I'm re-attaching > here. > > I'm focusing on the early section about Ilyenkov's notion of the ideal, > which I can't say I completely grasp. So please bear with me as I grope my > way through this effort to link the two articles. I'll paste in the section > of the attachment that I see as potentially, if I'm getting this right, > helpful in understanding Winn's essay: > > Although there is a considerable literature in the West that focuses on > the r?le of language in the social production of consciousness, what sets > Ilyenkov apart is > his distinction between language and the ideal. For Ilyenkov, language is > not the ideal, but > its ?objectified being?,27 its material form. he ideal does not exist in > language for Ilyenkov, > or in other material phenomena, but in forms of human activity. His entry > on the ideal in > the 1962 encyclop?dia-article defines it as ?the subjective image of > objective reality, i.e. a > reflection of the external world in forms of human activity, in forms of > its consciousness > and will?.28 One can think of the ideal as the significance that matter > assumes in the process > of its transformation by human activity. In other words, it is only > in-and-through human > activity that matter takes on the character of an object with significance. > To be clear, Ilyenkov was not referring only to parts of the material > world that individuals > directly transform, but to all matter that society comes ?in contact? > with. Idealisation is, for > him, a social phenomenon. In the same encyclop?dia-entry, he wrote: > An ideal image, say of bread, may arise in the imagination of a hungry man > or of > a baker. In the head of a satiated man occupied with building a house, > ideal bread > does not arise. But if we take society as a whole, ideal bread and ideal > houses are > always in existence, as well as any ideal object with which humanity is > concerned > in the process of production and reproduction of its real, material life. > his > includes the ideal sky, as an object of astronomy, as a ?natural > calendar?, a clock, > and compass. In consequence of that, all of nature is idealised in > humanity and > not just that part which it immediately produces or reproduces or consumes > in a > practical way.29 > >From this perspective, all matter appears in individual consciousness > already transformed > and idealised by the activity of previous generations, and this ideal > informs the individual?s > activity in the present. > > OK, back to me. What I'm wondering is this: Is "literacy" idealized > differently in the two communities of practice (school and outside-school)? > In school, at least formally, literacy is idealized as the "proper" use of > language in textual production and composition, with only the most formal > versions acceptable as evidence of literate performance. Adherence to > formal rules is the only way to meet the scholastic ideal. At the same > time, as soon as kids leave class and go into the hall, other ideals become > available, at least for 5 minutes of passing time. > > Outside school, the whole world of literacy possibilities become > available, with many ideals to guide production. The discourse genres that > govern spoken word performances for the communities of practice that Winn > focuses on are one possibility, but there are countless possibilities that > suit different trajectories. > > Well, hope that makes some sense. I'm entirely open to the possibility > that I've misunderstood Ilyenkov in seeking a way to understand him via > Winn. As we say in the South: What do y'all think? p > > > > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From lachnm@rpi.edu Mon Mar 30 14:33:26 2015 From: lachnm@rpi.edu (lachnm) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 17:33:26 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02d505a497d3b740741292d0f2678951@rpi.edu> The teachers I work with in NY are highly critical of standardized testing and are theoretically in favor of new opting-out legislation but are also worried that in practice parents of more privileged students, who tend score better on high-stakes testing, are more likely to opt-out than parents from underserved homes. If the case this would provide unfair evaluations of teachers' "effectiveness" - it seems that many of these teaches are in something of a double bind. peace, Michael Lachney On 2015-03-30 00:48, Peter Farruggio wrote: > Yes, it's still unsafe for teachers to boycott the tests in most > places, although the local teachers union in Seattle coordinated such > an action last year. But the opt out movement is led by parents, > certainly with teachers supporting it in the background, and it has > blossomed this testing season. Certain administrators have been using > bullying tactics, including outright violations of parents' rights; > but the resistance to incessant testing will continue to grow as > parents organize and coordinate their actions nationwide. Education is > and always has been political, and the politics have become harsher > with the neoliberal push to privatize schools and everything else. > > Teachers can and must play a role in defending democratic education, > and that means helping to stop the testing madness. The best thing > they can do at this point is to find ways to educate parents about > what is at stake and how to exercise their parental rights. If that > means conducting clandestine informational meetings in church > basements, so be it. > > See below > > > > http://unitedoptout.com/ > > http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=5528§ion=Article > > http://fairtest.org/get-involved/opting-out > > > Pete Farruggio, PhD > Associate Professor, Bilingual Education > University of Texas Pan American > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:04 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Opt-out movement > > This is related to the other thread since one of my initial responses > to the comments there was: As teachers, why not just stop paying > attention to all the testing and do the stuff that we know really > matters? > > Here is one answer for why not: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ntklteK_c&annotation_id=54833ffb-0000-2b41-a517-001a11c17db2&feature=iv&src_vid=JM1ddULfdhU > > It is a video about a school in Chicago where 75% of the students > opted out of taking a standardized test and the fallout that followed. > > Scary. > > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Mar 30 14:43:44 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 21:43:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: References: <1427664212985.63755@unm.edu> , Message-ID: <1427751824228.81953@unm.edu> Hi PETER! ( Did I get that right *this* time??? :D ) I think it's really an interesting equation you've set up here to bridge the ideal as defined by Ilyenkov, with "ideals" of literacy as illustrated in Winn's paper. That makes a lot of sense. [Applause in the theater] That is why I was wondering if the activity spent outside the classroom doing poetry slams at the bookstore would be like learning a new language, in that there are new vocabularies, and new constructs of usage, their own spontaneous literacies, that the students live that presence in their lives, as a place/space of joy and liberation. I pose the question, could this actually create/construct a new pathway into dealing with a different ideal of literacy in the school which is not inclusive to them? Said differently, does poetry slamming create a dialectical tension with in-school literacies within the student, that emerge through living it, that the in-school literacy is just like a different language rather than a framework that excludes them? I may not be explaining that very well, and I don't mean to represent I want to legitimize literacies that dismiss socioeconomic realities of students. At the same time, when I think of myself as a native English speaker, I can't reject the gender assignments in Spanish just because I might find it repressive, let's say. It is only because I speak English as a native speaker that I can make that claim, otherwise it would be invisible to me, and I may not think anything about it at all. Kind regards, Annalisa From smago@uga.edu Mon Mar 30 14:49:32 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 21:49:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: References: <1427664212985.63755@unm.edu> Message-ID: Well, ed schools are pretty disputatious places, so I'd never say that there's an orthodoxy to follow. I'd agree with your situated perspective, even as the world of ed psych still appears to operate between the ears. There are teachers who import all sorts of interesting possibilities into their classrooms, even with all the oppressive testing and centralized curricula that assume that all kids' minds have the same architecture (that might be the wrong word, since it might come across as static--other terms welcome). Hoping for others to weigh in. p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 5:28 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space Peter- At first I didn't get at all what the connection between the discussion of Ilyenkov and Maisha's work, but I think its a great idea to discuss the question you pose. Is "literacy" idealized differently in the two communities of practice (school and outside-school)? I have difficulty keeping straight with ideas such as "subjective image of reality" but there seems to be little doubt that there are different values being embodied in standard school literacy practices and the multi-modal, multi-generational practices in the sites that Maisha describes. Seems like this could be a useful lens for addressing my question about how.when.under-what-conditions the practices and associated values of an evening get together at a community center can be at least part of a high school educational curriculum. Only sometimes under special conditions seems to be the answer. Is that answer accepted in Ed schools these days? mike On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > OK, I hit send accidentally. To continue: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Smagorinsky > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 4:02 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories > of Youth across Time and Space > > I'm going to do some exploratory thinking here, so please pardon the > half-baked nature of what follows (half-baked is a long-time value on > xmca in its embrace of thoughts in emergent process). > > Winn's article has gotten little traction as a discussion topic, so > I'll combine it with something that's gotten even less attention, an > article that someone (Annalisa, I think) sent awhile back and that I'm > re-attaching here. > > I'm focusing on the early section about Ilyenkov's notion of the > ideal, which I can't say I completely grasp. So please bear with me as > I grope my way through this effort to link the two articles. I'll > paste in the section of the attachment that I see as potentially, if > I'm getting this right, helpful in understanding Winn's essay: > > Although there is a considerable literature in the West that focuses > on the r?le of language in the social production of consciousness, > what sets Ilyenkov apart is his distinction between language and the > ideal. For Ilyenkov, language is not the ideal, but its ?objectified > being?,27 its material form. he ideal does not exist in language for > Ilyenkov, or in other material phenomena, but in forms of human > activity. His entry on the ideal in the 1962 encyclop?dia-article > defines it as ?the subjective image of objective reality, i.e. a > reflection of the external world in forms of human activity, in forms > of its consciousness and will?.28 One can think of the ideal as the > significance that matter assumes in the process of its transformation > by human activity. In other words, it is only in-and-through human > activity that matter takes on the character of an object with significance. > To be clear, Ilyenkov was not referring only to parts of the material > world that individuals directly transform, but to all matter that > society comes ?in contact? > with. Idealisation is, for > him, a social phenomenon. In the same encyclop?dia-entry, he wrote: > An ideal image, say of bread, may arise in the imagination of a hungry > man or of a baker. In the head of a satiated man occupied with > building a house, ideal bread does not arise. But if we take society > as a whole, ideal bread and ideal houses are always in existence, as > well as any ideal object with which humanity is concerned in the > process of production and reproduction of its real, material life. > his > includes the ideal sky, as an object of astronomy, as a ?natural > calendar?, a clock, and compass. In consequence of that, all of nature > is idealised in humanity and not just that part which it immediately > produces or reproduces or consumes in a practical way.29 > >From this perspective, all matter appears in individual consciousness > already transformed > and idealised by the activity of previous generations, and this ideal > informs the individual?s activity in the present. > > OK, back to me. What I'm wondering is this: Is "literacy" idealized > differently in the two communities of practice (school and outside-school)? > In school, at least formally, literacy is idealized as the "proper" > use of language in textual production and composition, with only the > most formal versions acceptable as evidence of literate performance. > Adherence to formal rules is the only way to meet the scholastic > ideal. At the same time, as soon as kids leave class and go into the > hall, other ideals become available, at least for 5 minutes of passing time. > > Outside school, the whole world of literacy possibilities become > available, with many ideals to guide production. The discourse genres > that govern spoken word performances for the communities of practice > that Winn focuses on are one possibility, but there are countless > possibilities that suit different trajectories. > > Well, hope that makes some sense. I'm entirely open to the possibility > that I've misunderstood Ilyenkov in seeking a way to understand him > via Winn. As we say in the South: What do y'all think? p > > > > -- "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington From pfarruggio@utpa.edu Mon Mar 30 15:04:32 2015 From: pfarruggio@utpa.edu (Peter Farruggio) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 22:04:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] opt-outs, testing and poverty Message-ID: I thought I'd share this definitive statement by Stephen Krashen about the true plight of working class school children in the US ("poor and minority" children in the US discourse) The argument that we needed the high stakes testing of NCLB to SHOW us how poorly these kids are doing was concocted by the neoliberal Business Roundtable in the late 1980s, and it's as bogus today as it was then. The high stakes regimes have performed exactly as designed by the elites: test and punish, replace any attempts at teaching critical thinking and stimulating intellectual curiosity with drill and kill, behavioristic pedagogy, suitable for training compliant workers By the way, I think it's na?ve to reject the notion that the beltway-based administrators of such civil rights organizations as NAACP and NCLR conform to Bill Gates' ideology in quid pro quo fashion as payback for his generous donations. Yes, many had sold out to rich foundations before Gates got in the game, but so what? They're still sell outs. Pete Farruggio, PhD Associate Professor, Bilingual Education University of Texas Pan American *********************************************************************************************************************************************** Poverty is the problem that must be solved... Our Schools Are Not Broken... Stephen Krashen - June 10, 2011 http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=2319 [Editor's Note: The following ? Our Schools are Not Broken: The Problem is Poverty ? by Stephen Krashen was originally given as the Commencement Speech, Graduate School of Education and Counseling, Lewis and Clark College on June 5, 2011. All footnotes appear at the end]. "Broken" schools? We have been told repeatedly that our schools are "broken," that our teachers are inadequate, that our schools of education are not doing their job, and that teachers unions are spending all their time protecting bad teachers. The evidence is the fact that American students do not score at the top of the world on international test scores. One observer claimed that American students are "taking a shellacking" on these tests. (1) The impact of poverty Not so. Studies show that middle-class American students attending well-funded schools outscore students in nearly all other countries on these tests. (2) Overall scores are unspectacular because over 20% of our students live in poverty, the highest percentage among all industrialized countries. High-scoring Finland, for example, first on the PISA science test in 2006, has less than 4% child poverty. (3) Reduce poverty to improve education, not vice-versa The fact that American students who are not living in poverty do very well shows that there is no crisis in teacher quality. The problem is poverty. The US Department of Education insists that improving teaching comes first: With better teaching, we will have more learning (higher test scores, according to the feds), and this will improve the economy. We are always interested in improving teaching, but the best teaching in the world will have little effect when students are hungry, are in poor health because of inadequate diet and inadequate health care, and have low literacy development because of a lack of access to books. (4) Also, studies have failed to find a correlation between improved test scores and subsequent economic progress. (5) The relationship is the other way around: "We are likely to find that the problems of housing and education, instead of preceding the elimination of poverty, will themselves be affected if poverty is first abolished.??? (Martin Luther King, 1967, Final Words of Advice). At least: Protect children from the effects of poverty If poverty is the problem, the solution is full employment and a living wage for honest work. Until this happens, we need to do what we can to protect children from the effects of poverty. This means (1) continue to support and expand free and reduced breakfast and lunch programs ("No child left unfed," as Susan Ohanian puts it). It means (2) make sure all schools have an adequate number of school nurses; there are fewer school nurses per student in high poverty schools than in low poverty schools. (6) It means (3) make sure all children have access to books. Access to books > more reading > literacy development There is very clear evidence that children from high-poverty families have very little access to books at home, at school, and in their communities. (7) Studies also show when children have access to interesting and comprehensible reading material, they read. (8) And finally, when children read, they improve in all aspects of literacy, including vocabulary, grammar, spelling, reading and writing ability.9 In fact, I have concluded that reading for pleasure, self-selected reading, is the major cause of literacy development. Making sure that all children have access to books makes literacy development possible. Without it, literacy development is impossible. The power of libraries In support of this chain of logic, a number of studies show that school library quality and the presence of credential librarians are related to reading ability. The leader of this research in the United States is Keith Curry Lance, who, with his associates, has reported that school library quality is related to reading achievement in a number of different states. (10) Related to the poverty issue, the results of some recent studies have suggested that access to books, either at home or at the school library, can mitigate or balance the effect of poverty: The positive impact of access to books on reading achievement is about as large as the negative impact of poverty. (11) Access can close the gap A stunning example of the power of books to close the gap between different groups is Fryer and Levitt's (2004) analysis. They reported that white children did better than African-American children on tests administered on entrance to kindergarten. When socio-economic status was added to the analysis, about 2/3 of the gap was closed. When books in the home was added to the analysis in addition to socio-economic status, the entire gap was closed: There was no difference between the groups. (12) Unfortunately, public and school libraries across the country are suffering tremendous budget cuts, and school librarians' hours are being reduced. (13) As Isaac Asimov wrote, "When I read about the way in which library funds are being cut and cut, I can only think that American society has found one more way to destroy itself" (from his autobiography, I, Asimov). How to pay for it: Reduce testing We can easily afford to protect children from many of the effects of poverty. The obvious step is to halt the drive toward increased testing and reduce the amount of testing we are paying for now. The astonishing increase in testing It is widely acknowledged that NCLB (No Child Left Behind) required an excessive amount of testing. Not well known is the fact that the US Department of Education is planning to spend billions on a massive new testing program, with far more testing than ever before, all linked to national standards. The new plan will require, as before, tests in reading and math in grades three through eight and once in high school, but it also includes interim testing, and may include pre-testing in the fall to be able to measure growth during the year. In addition, the US Department of Education is encouraging testing in other subjects as well. The tests are to be administered online, which means a huge investment in getting all students connected. (14) No evidence supporting the increase in testing There is no evidence supporting the idea that tests to enforce national standards will have a positive impact on student learning. In fact, the evidence we have suggests that it will not: States that use more high-stakes tests do not do better on the national NAEP test than states with fewer, (15) and the use of the standardized SAT does not predict college success over and above high school grades. (16) Countries that use standardized tests for course examinations did only slightly better on the PISA, a test of reading given to 15 year olds, and the use of such tests to compare schools and to make curricular decisions has a near- zero correlation with PISA scores. (17) Of course, the administration has argued that these will be new and better tests, more sensitive to growth in learning, able to chart student progress through the year, and able to probe real learning, not just memorization. Before unleashing these "improved" tests on the country, however, there should be rigorous investigation, rigorous studies to show that these measures are worth the investment. Right now, the corporations and politicians insist that we take on faith the claim that these tests are good for students. Such claims exhibit a profound lack of accountability. In contrast, there is overwhelming evidence that dealing with poverty is an excellent investment, one that will not only improve school achievement but also affect quality of life and personal happiness. To summarize: 1. American education is not broken. Our less than spectacular international test scores are not because of bad teaching, but are because of our high rate of child poverty. 2. Reducing poverty will improve educational attainment, not vice-versa. 3. A reasonable first step is to protect children from the effects of poverty: No child left unfed, more health care, improve access to books. 4. We can easily pay for much of this by reducing testing. Notes 1. Bonstell, A. 2011. America's academic meltdown, Orange County Register, May 5, 2011. 2. Payne, K. and Biddle, B. 1999. Poor school funding, child poverty, and mathematics achievement. Educational Researcher 28 (6): 4-13; Bracey, G. 2009. The Bracey Report on the Condition of Public Education. Boulder and Tempe: Education and the Public Interest Center & Education Policy Research Unit. http://epicpolicy.org/publication/Bracey-Report; Berliner, D. The Context for Interpreting PISA Results in the USA: Negativism, Chauvinism, Misunderstanding, and the Potential to Distort the Educational Systems of Nations. In Pereyra, M., Kottoff, H-G., and Cowan, R. (Eds.). PISA under examination: Changing knowledge, changing tests, and changing schools. Amsterdam: Sense Publishers. In press. 3. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_chi_pov-economy-child-poverty. 4. Berliner, D. 2009. Poverty and Potential: Out-of-School Factors and School Success. Boulder and Tempe: Education and the Public Interest Center & Education Policy Research Unit. http://epicpolicy.org/publication/poverty-and-potential; Coles, G. 2008/2009. Hunger, academic success, and the hard bigotry of indifference. Rethinking Schools 23 (2); Rothstein, R. (2010). How to fix our schools. Economic Policy Institute, Issue Brief #286. http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/ib286; Coles, G. 2008/2009. Hunger, academic success, and the hard bigotry of indifference. Rethinking Schools 23 (2). http://www.rethinkingschools.org/archive/23_02/hung232.shtml; Krashen, S. 1997. Bridging inequity with books. Educational Leadership 55(4): 18-22; Martin, M. 2004. A strange ignorance: The role of lead poisoning in ???failing schools.??? http://www.azsba.org/lead.htm. 5. Zhao, Y. 2009. Catching Up or Leading the Way? American Education in the Age of Globalization. ASCD: Alexandria, VA.; Baker, K. 2007. Are international tests worth anything? Phi Delta Kappan, 89(2), 101-104. 6. Berliner, D. 2009. op. cit. 7. Di Loreto, C., and Tse, L. 1999. Seeing is believing: Disparity in books in two Los Angeles area public libraries. School Library Quarterly 17(3): 31-36; Duke, N. 2000. For the rich it's richer: Print experiences and environments offered to children in very low and very high-socioeconomic status first-grade classrooms. American Educational Research Journal 37(2): 441-478; Neuman, S.B. and Celano, D. 2001. Access to print in low-income and middle-income communities: An ecological study of four neighborhoods. Reading Research Quarterly, 36, 1, 8-26. 8. Lindsay, J. 2010. Children's Access to Print Material and Education-Related Outcomes: Findings from a Meta-Analytic Review. Naperville, IL: Learning Point Associates. http://bit.ly/9lKPPa 9. McQuillan, J. 1998. The Literacy Crisis: False Claims and Real Solutions. Portsmouth, NH: Heinemann Publishing Company; Krashen, S. 2004. The Power of Reading. Portsmouth: Heinemann and Westport: Libraries Unlimited; Lindsay, J. 2010. op. cit. 10. Lance, K. 2004. The impact of school library media centers on academic achievement. In Carol Kuhlthau (Ed.), School Library Media Annual. 188-197. Westport, CT: Libraries Unlimited. (For access to the many Lance studies done in individual states, as well as studies done by others at the state level, see http://www.davidvl.org/research.html). 11. Achterman, D. 2008. Haves, Halves, and Have-Nots: School Libraries and Student Achievement in California. PhD dissertation, University of North Texas. http://digital.library.unt.edu/permalink/meta-dc-9800:1; Evans, M, Kelley, J. Sikora, J. and Treiman,D. 2010. Family scholarly culture and educational success: Books and schooling in 27 nations. Research in Social Stratification and Mobility, 28 (2): 171-197; Krashen, S., Lee, SY, and McQuillan, J. 2010. An analysis of the PIRLS (2006) data: Can the school library reduce the effect of poverty on reading achievement? CSLA (California School Library Association) Journal, 34 (1); 26-28; Schubert, F. and Becker, R. 2010. Social inequality of reading literacy: A longitudinal analysis with cross-sectional data of PIRLS 2001and PISA 2000 utilizing the pair wise matching procedure. Research in Social Stratification and Mobility 29:109-133. 12. Fryer, R. and Levitt, S. 2004. Understanding the black-white test score gap in the first two years of school. The Review of Economics and Statistics 86 (2): 447-464. 13. American Library Association, 2010. The State of America's Libraries. American Libraries (Special Issue). 14. U.S. Department of Education, Office of Planning, Evaluation and Policy Development. (2010) ESEA Blueprint for Reform, Washington, D.C.; Krashen, S. and Ohanian, S. 2011. High tech testing on the way: A 21st century boondoggle? http://blogs.edweek.org/teachers/living-in- dialogue/ /2011/04/high_tech_testing_on_the_way_a.html. Apparently even the president of the United States has not been aware of the amount of testing the Department of Education was planning. On March 28, 2011, the President, in response to a question at a townhall meeting, commented that "we have piled on a lot of standardized tests on our kids" and suggested that we "figure out whether we have to do it every year or whether we can do it maybe every several years," as well as use other criteria. http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press- office/2011/03/28/remarks-president-univision-town-hall 15. Nichols, S., Glass, G., and Berliner, D. 2006. High-stakes testing and student achievement: Does accountability increase student learning? Education Policy Archives 14(1). http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v14n1/. 16. Geiser, S. and Santelices, M.V., 2007. Validity of high-school grades in predicting student success beyond the freshman year: High-school record vs. standardized tests as indicators of four-year college outcomes. Research and Occasional Papers Series: CSHE 6.07, University of California, Berkeley. http://cshe.berkeley.ed; Bowen, W., Chingos, M., and McPherson, M. 2009. Crossing the Finish Line: Completing College at America's Universities. Princeton: Princeton University Press. 17. OECD 2011. Lessons from PISA for the United States, Strong Performers and Successful Reformers in Education, OECD Publishing. http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/9789264096660-en From pfarruggio@utpa.edu Mon Mar 30 15:04:33 2015 From: pfarruggio@utpa.edu (Peter Farruggio) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 22:04:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement In-Reply-To: <02d505a497d3b740741292d0f2678951@rpi.edu> References: <02d505a497d3b740741292d0f2678951@rpi.edu> Message-ID: Yes, but the whole point of the opt-outs is a protest vs the testing regime, not just to protect "my child" The hope is that a mass movement will scare the bullies who are promoting the testing and shut down the whole enterprise. Bloody the bully's nose and he won't dare to retaliate against teachers. The dynamic was captured by Frederick Douglass's truism "power concedes nothing without a struggle." -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+pfarruggio=utpa.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+pfarruggio=utpa.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of lachnm Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 4:33 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement The teachers I work with in NY are highly critical of standardized testing and are theoretically in favor of new opting-out legislation but are also worried that in practice parents of more privileged students, who tend score better on high-stakes testing, are more likely to opt-out than parents from underserved homes. If the case this would provide unfair evaluations of teachers' "effectiveness" - it seems that many of these teaches are in something of a double bind. peace, Michael Lachney On 2015-03-30 00:48, Peter Farruggio wrote: > Yes, it's still unsafe for teachers to boycott the tests in most > places, although the local teachers union in Seattle coordinated such > an action last year. But the opt out movement is led by parents, > certainly with teachers supporting it in the background, and it has > blossomed this testing season. Certain administrators have been using > bullying tactics, including outright violations of parents' rights; > but the resistance to incessant testing will continue to grow as > parents organize and coordinate their actions nationwide. Education is > and always has been political, and the politics have become harsher > with the neoliberal push to privatize schools and everything else. > > Teachers can and must play a role in defending democratic education, > and that means helping to stop the testing madness. The best thing > they can do at this point is to find ways to educate parents about > what is at stake and how to exercise their parental rights. If that > means conducting clandestine informational meetings in church > basements, so be it. > > See below > > > > http://unitedoptout.com/ > > http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=5528§ion=Article > > http://fairtest.org/get-involved/opting-out > > > Pete Farruggio, PhD > Associate Professor, Bilingual Education University of Texas Pan > American > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:04 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Opt-out movement > > This is related to the other thread since one of my initial responses > to the comments there was: As teachers, why not just stop paying > attention to all the testing and do the stuff that we know really > matters? > > Here is one answer for why not: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ntklteK_c&annotation_id=54833ffb-000 > 0-2b41-a517-001a11c17db2&feature=iv&src_vid=JM1ddULfdhU > > It is a video about a school in Chicago where 75% of the students > opted out of taking a standardized test and the fallout that followed. > > Scary. > > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From bferholt@gmail.com Mon Mar 30 19:33:06 2015 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 22:33:06 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement In-Reply-To: References: <02d505a497d3b740741292d0f2678951@rpi.edu> Message-ID: Again, I can see that the opt out movement could look very different in New Jersey or even farther afield. From where I am it is not prolonging the disease. It is a political action, not an educational gesture. I think more important than where you fall on this movement is learning from it. This is what it looks like in NYC: http://thejosevilson.com/this-is-not-a-test-new-york-edition-thanks-nycore/. Beth On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Peter Farruggio wrote: > Yes, but the whole point of the opt-outs is a protest vs the testing > regime, not just to protect "my child" The hope is that a mass movement > will scare the bullies who are promoting the testing and shut down the > whole enterprise. Bloody the bully's nose and he won't dare to retaliate > against teachers. The dynamic was captured by Frederick Douglass's truism > "power concedes nothing without a struggle." > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+pfarruggio=utpa.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+pfarruggio=utpa.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of lachnm > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 4:33 PM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Opt-out movement > > The teachers I work with in NY are highly critical of standardized testing > and are theoretically in favor of new opting-out legislation but are also > worried that in practice parents of more privileged students, who tend > score better on high-stakes testing, are more likely to opt-out than > parents from underserved homes. If the case this would provide unfair > evaluations of teachers' "effectiveness" - it seems that many of these > teaches are in something of a double bind. > peace, > Michael Lachney > > On 2015-03-30 00:48, Peter Farruggio wrote: > > Yes, it's still unsafe for teachers to boycott the tests in most > > places, although the local teachers union in Seattle coordinated such > > an action last year. But the opt out movement is led by parents, > > certainly with teachers supporting it in the background, and it has > > blossomed this testing season. Certain administrators have been using > > bullying tactics, including outright violations of parents' rights; > > but the resistance to incessant testing will continue to grow as > > parents organize and coordinate their actions nationwide. Education is > > and always has been political, and the politics have become harsher > > with the neoliberal push to privatize schools and everything else. > > > > Teachers can and must play a role in defending democratic education, > > and that means helping to stop the testing madness. The best thing > > they can do at this point is to find ways to educate parents about > > what is at stake and how to exercise their parental rights. If that > > means conducting clandestine informational meetings in church > > basements, so be it. > > > > See below > > > > > > > > http://unitedoptout.com/ > > > > http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=5528§ion=Article > > > > http://fairtest.org/get-involved/opting-out > > > > > > Pete Farruggio, PhD > > Associate Professor, Bilingual Education University of Texas Pan > > American > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:04 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Opt-out movement > > > > This is related to the other thread since one of my initial responses > > to the comments there was: As teachers, why not just stop paying > > attention to all the testing and do the stuff that we know really > > matters? > > > > Here is one answer for why not: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ntklteK_c&annotation_id=54833ffb-000 > > 0-2b41-a517-001a11c17db2&feature=iv&src_vid=JM1ddULfdhU > > > > It is a video about a school in Chicago where 75% of the students > > opted out of taking a standardized test and the fallout that followed. > > > > Scary. > > > > -greg > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Mon Mar 30 19:53:29 2015 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 02:53:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: References: <1427664212985.63755@unm.edu> Message-ID: Barriers do arise in schools. Many students live behind walls, both real and imagined, dictated by the needs that survival necessitates. Words and meaning have power, and this makes learning a political act. School should never be *done* to students rather students should*do* their learning on to the world. I truly believe we have education backwards. We strive for college and career readiness hoping to grow GDP with a flow of technical workers as means for civic contribution. Instead we should worry first about community and civic readiness. Then, and only then, will college and career follow for those who have been robbed of their agency and culture. When students leave schools wanting to make communities a better place they engage in literacy practices steeped in academic discourse. When kids see how they can ?get theres? by being an agent in the world many realize life requires learning beyond high school. Community, as a thread, permeates Maisha Winn?s retrospective on her research. In Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth Across Time and Space Winn described a series of ethnographic studies that draw heavily on the socio-cultural work of Heath and the literacy as action found in the work of Cole, Gutierrez, Lunsford, Smagorinsky, Street, and many more. Winn first described out of school spaces for learning and then either found similar spaces or applied these lessons to more formal learning spaces. African Diaspora Participatory Literacy Communities Winn describes African Diaspora Participatory Literacy Communities to encapsulate the poet cafes and bookstores she studies: ADPLCs, as literacy or literary-centered events outside of school and work communities that combined oral, aural, and written traditions through an exchange of words, sounds, and movements that privileged a Black aesthetic She then describe many of the tenants of learning found in socio-cultural views of learning. Lately, and I think too often removed (or maybe all inclusiveO from their theoretical base, this framework has been labeled connected learning . It is interesting to see Winn draw on many of the same principles. Winn?s description of learning matches Gee?s adaptation of Community into Affinity Spaces. Like other open mics, POSA, is an invitation to both novice and seasoned poets to share their writing in a space that promotes reading, writing, thinking, and activism, as well as collabo- ration among elders and children. V.S. Chochezi and Staajabu, the mother daughter poetry duo also known as Straight Out Scribes (SOS), begin with saying ?hello,? in several languages punctuated with a decidedly urbanized ?What?s up!? She draws Gutierrez?s ( 2008 ): concept of ?sociocritical literacy??that is a ?historicizing literacy? that privileges the lived experiences and legacies of participants?provided the much needed space to analyze the activities of both classes against the backdrop of a history of Black poets and writers. This notion of learning as a sense of community around a shared purpose was traced back to The Black Arts Movement which unapologetically sought to incorporate a Black aesthetic into visual and performing arts along side the Black Power Movement, which advocated self-determination and self-definition among Black Americans What is interesting is this Black aesthetic, as of all American History greatly influences our cultures. You see this in the rise of hip hop culture. I actually stumbled into a similar space for learning in Cambridge, MA. What made the ADPLC a space where learning thrived was community and a shared purpose. Poppa Joe and Mamma C Winn then described a few formal learning places that drew from the same history and values of the out of school places. Once again community came first. When describing one classroom Winn wrote: These student poets used the Power Writing circle to build community while reading original compositions aloud in an open mic format, much like the venues I observed in Northern California, and engaging in giving and receiving feedback. In the context of these literacy communities, Poppa Joe and his guest teachers taught by modeling. Culturally responsive classrooms were also central to the Winn?s thesis. Yet she noted these were often hardest for classrooms. Winn and Latrise P. Johnson explored culturally relevant pedagogy. They describe how it means much more then reading a book with a black kid on the cover.In fact Winn notes that the most successful spaces drew on student lives: used the material of students? lived experiences, such as disproportionate contact with law enforcement and police brutality, as resources for rich dialogue and their struggle to translate the dialogue into writing As Peter Samgorinsky pointed out recently on the XMCA listserv this work reflects recent scholarship by David Kirkland who detailed the many powerful ways black youth challenge dominant narratives. Winn points out that it is the arts that are the dominant path to having students write their own story on to the world. She noted: I also learned how theater arts builds community and supports marginalized youth as they build and sustain literate identities. Learning from Winn Literacy instruction is identity work. It is political. The question was posed on the XMCA listserv about recreating these experiences in the classroom. Anna Aguilar noted a memory of a teacher creating a Zine. Smagorinsky stressed the role of coaches. I couldn?t agree more. We need to realign schools so that students are empowered by designing the community. I was intrigued by this idea in the listserv: For Ilyenkov, language is not the ideal, but its ?objectified being?, its material form. The ideal does not exist in language for Ilyenkov, or in other material phenomena, but in forms of human activity. In many ways writing instruction must be attached to a human activity. Technically it already is an activity but it is one students are forced into and motivated by exploring new identities in memes or engaging in coaching relationships such as in Soccer. In fact Michael Cole posed these questions after reading Winn?s work: [How do we] better understand how the special teachers, those who were involved in local community literacy practices/values/histories, managed to include them in their public high school classrooms with all of the rules, regulations, standardized testing, etc. that is involved. Does such boundary shattering require exceptional people? or perhaps What are the boundaries to such boundary shattering?? Community Matters These efforts do take exceptional people. They also require us to challenge the boundaries, such as limited views of literacy. Our fascination with accountability reform is at the heart of ripping away what Winn values. Kirkland, as Peter points out, notes how limited assessments of what counts help to dissuade youth as school is done to the them. Winn wants learning done onto the world. As Michael Glassman (again on the XMCA listerv) noted Papa Joe and Mamma C did more than teach language arts. We must recognize community where ever it exists. Another barrier arose around accountability based reform and that is the removal of the arts from schools. Content rich instruction and arts that allow students to do the identity work necessary to be civic and community ready. Can these exceptional teachers exist. Yes. Are they rare. Yes, that is the definition of exceptional. Are they only found in school? No. On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 5:51 PM Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Well, ed schools are pretty disputatious places, so I'd never say that > there's an orthodoxy to follow. I'd agree with your situated perspective, > even as the world of ed psych still appears to operate between the ears. > There are teachers who import all sorts of interesting possibilities into > their classrooms, even with all the oppressive testing and centralized > curricula that assume that all kids' minds have the same architecture (that > might be the wrong word, since it might come across as static--other terms > welcome). > > Hoping for others to weigh in. p > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 5:28 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth > across Time and Space > > Peter- > > At first I didn't get at all what the connection between the discussion of > Ilyenkov and Maisha's work, but I think its a great idea to discuss the > question you pose. Is "literacy" idealized differently in the two > communities of practice (school and outside-school)? I have difficulty > keeping straight with ideas such as "subjective image of reality" but there > seems to be little doubt that there are different values being embodied in > standard school literacy practices and the multi-modal, multi-generational > practices in the sites that Maisha describes. Seems like this could be a > useful lens for addressing my question about how.when.under-what-conditions > the practices and associated values of an evening get together at a > community center can be at least part of a high school educational > curriculum. > > Only sometimes under special conditions seems to be the answer. Is that > answer accepted in Ed schools these days? > > mike > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > OK, I hit send accidentally. To continue: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Peter Smagorinsky > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 4:02 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories > > of Youth across Time and Space > > > > I'm going to do some exploratory thinking here, so please pardon the > > half-baked nature of what follows (half-baked is a long-time value on > > xmca in its embrace of thoughts in emergent process). > > > > Winn's article has gotten little traction as a discussion topic, so > > I'll combine it with something that's gotten even less attention, an > > article that someone (Annalisa, I think) sent awhile back and that I'm > > re-attaching here. > > > > I'm focusing on the early section about Ilyenkov's notion of the > > ideal, which I can't say I completely grasp. So please bear with me as > > I grope my way through this effort to link the two articles. I'll > > paste in the section of the attachment that I see as potentially, if > > I'm getting this right, helpful in understanding Winn's essay: > > > > Although there is a considerable literature in the West that focuses > > on the r?le of language in the social production of consciousness, > > what sets Ilyenkov apart is his distinction between language and the > > ideal. For Ilyenkov, language is not the ideal, but its ?objectified > > being?,27 its material form. he ideal does not exist in language for > > Ilyenkov, or in other material phenomena, but in forms of human > > activity. His entry on the ideal in the 1962 encyclop?dia-article > > defines it as ?the subjective image of objective reality, i.e. a > > reflection of the external world in forms of human activity, in forms > > of its consciousness and will?.28 One can think of the ideal as the > > significance that matter assumes in the process of its transformation > > by human activity. In other words, it is only in-and-through human > > activity that matter takes on the character of an object with > significance. > > To be clear, Ilyenkov was not referring only to parts of the material > > world that individuals directly transform, but to all matter that > > society comes ?in contact? > > with. Idealisation is, for > > him, a social phenomenon. In the same encyclop?dia-entry, he wrote: > > An ideal image, say of bread, may arise in the imagination of a hungry > > man or of a baker. In the head of a satiated man occupied with > > building a house, ideal bread does not arise. But if we take society > > as a whole, ideal bread and ideal houses are always in existence, as > > well as any ideal object with which humanity is concerned in the > > process of production and reproduction of its real, material life. > > his > > includes the ideal sky, as an object of astronomy, as a ?natural > > calendar?, a clock, and compass. In consequence of that, all of nature > > is idealised in humanity and not just that part which it immediately > > produces or reproduces or consumes in a practical way.29 > > >From this perspective, all matter appears in individual consciousness > > already transformed > > and idealised by the activity of previous generations, and this ideal > > informs the individual?s activity in the present. > > > > OK, back to me. What I'm wondering is this: Is "literacy" idealized > > differently in the two communities of practice (school and > outside-school)? > > In school, at least formally, literacy is idealized as the "proper" > > use of language in textual production and composition, with only the > > most formal versions acceptable as evidence of literate performance. > > Adherence to formal rules is the only way to meet the scholastic > > ideal. At the same time, as soon as kids leave class and go into the > > hall, other ideals become available, at least for 5 minutes of passing > time. > > > > Outside school, the whole world of literacy possibilities become > > available, with many ideals to guide production. The discourse genres > > that govern spoken word performances for the communities of practice > > that Winn focuses on are one possibility, but there are countless > > possibilities that suit different trajectories. > > > > Well, hope that makes some sense. I'm entirely open to the possibility > > that I've misunderstood Ilyenkov in seeking a way to understand him > > via Winn. As we say in the South: What do y'all think? p > > > > > > > > > > > -- > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. Waddington > > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Mar 30 23:06:43 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:06:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: References: <1427664212985.63755@unm.edu> , Message-ID: <1427782002170.76844@unm.edu> This WaPo Op-Ed by Fareed Zakaria seems timely to this thread: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-stem-wont-make-us-successful/2015/03/26/5f4604f2-d2a5-11e4-ab77-9646eea6a4c7_story.html From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Mar 30 23:25:11 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 23:25:11 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: References: <1427664212985.63755@unm.edu> Message-ID: Greg McVerry, I share your wanting to explore what makes these teachers exceptional. You repeated Mike's question and I will repeat it again as we need to explore what "type" or "kind" of situation develops these exceptional teachers [in and out of school. Greg wrote, In fact Michael Cole posed these questions after reading Winn?s work: [How do we] better understand how the special teachers, those who were involved in local community literacy practices/values/histories, managed to include them in their public high school classrooms with all of the rules, regulations, standardized testing, etc. that is involved. Does such boundary shattering require exceptional people? or perhaps What are the boundaries to such boundary shattering?? So the question becomes do we need exceptional people [with agentic will and purpose] that enables the shattering of "boundaries" or do we need social "situations" that have a certain definition/boundary that "contains" the energy required to shatter or break through preconceived boundaries. Another way to discuss "social situations" is to use the concept of "worlds" that express a "subject matter" that matters. Winn uses the metaphor of "spaces" when she asks "In what spaces do people of African descent engage in literate practices such as reading, writing, and speaking, beyond school settings?" Now I ask if it is "necessary" that these alternative "spaces" of "experiential" learning may be "necessary" AS MODELS in order for possible "boundary shattering" in schools. In other words, there must be alternative "subject matter that matters" that may be necessary before boundary shattering of preconceived notions of "formal schooling" becomes possible. This is a notion of "dialectical" moving reciprocally from the known to unknown AND from the unknown to the known. The "known" in this retrospective was honouring "tradition" and expressing loyalty to "tradition". Winn asks what are the "salient" characteristics of these literacy communities that honoured tradition? The most salient characteristic is that these literacy communities ARE MEDIATING spaces in which tradition "speaks" and is performed and it is these "spaces" which offer the containers/boundaries AS MODELS for navigating the labyrinths of preconceived formal schooling. This focus on honouring what has come before is recognizing a "historicizing literacy" as another salient characteristic of this "mediating space". Subject matters that matter emerge within pre-existing traditions that acknowledge the "textured lives" of our youth. These salient characteristics are moving beyond the traditional conceptualizations of literacy to focus on "experiences" of literacy as encounters with the "subject matter". [that matter to the subjects/youth. Winn describes these activities as forging collective "third spaces" [page 59] which CULTIVATE literate identities emerging within traditions of being. These third spaces provide rich historical contexts that are necessary in Winn's retrospective to accomplish boundary shattering within formal schooling. To preserve literate historical communities [as locations of shared identity] it was necessary to "stage" literate "events" viewed by their participants as a "mission" that presented subject matter that matters. Winn is describing the manifestation of a "legacy" of literacy within a tradition for people of African descent which "inspires" the participants. Winn chose to begin her retrospective in the 1940's leading up to present day literacy movements as presentations of subject matter that matters AS LEGACY. In the exchanging of written and "spoken" words [as sayings] community institutions are formed that extending the traditons that exist as "living tradition" and not merely history as the past. THIS is a diacritical understanding, of tradition as continuing to be 'living' within current community as democratic engagement. Poppa John and Mamma C participated passionately and intimately within this particular "tradition" Was it them as agentic individuals that was "exceptional" or was it the subject matter that matters that was "exceptional"? I propose that what is exceptional is to be able to stage events that keeps this tradition "alive". To return to Mike's question, it seems that the "salient" characteristics is to view language and word as expressions of a p articularsubject matter that matters [is meaningful]. Gadamer would ask "who is doing the "speaking"? and he would answer it is the subject matter that "speaks" diacritically through encountering "traditions" that risk our prejudices. I suggest that it is possible to understand Winn's retrospective as this type of a quest to honour the tradition/subject matter that speaks through us. In this speaking "through" the tradition boundaries are shattered and we can possibly approach the future as continuing to live the truth of our tradition as empowering the subject matter that matters. I am aware that my focusing on the term "tradition" will generate a response and am fully aware of the "shadow side" of tradition as "static" or "systematic" but I am suggesting there is another way to understand tradition as expressed in Winn's retrospective reflections on what she has come to value as developing within a social situation as an intimate third space of mediation. Larry On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 7:53 PM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > Barriers do arise in schools. Many students live behind walls, both real > and imagined, dictated by the needs that survival necessitates. > > Words and meaning have power, and this makes learning a political act. > School should never be *done* to students rather students should*do* their > learning on to the world. > > I truly believe we have education backwards. We strive for college and > career readiness hoping to grow GDP with a flow of technical workers as > means for civic contribution. Instead we should worry first about community > and civic readiness. Then, and only then, will college and career follow > for those who have been robbed of their agency and culture. > > When students leave schools wanting to make communities a better place they > engage in literacy practices steeped in academic discourse. When kids see > how they can ?get theres? by being an agent in the world many realize life > requires learning beyond high school. > > Community, as a thread, permeates Maisha Winn?s retrospective on her > research. In Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth Across Time and > Space Winn described a > series of ethnographic studies that draw heavily on the socio-cultural work > of Heath and the literacy as action found in the work of Cole, Gutierrez, > Lunsford, Smagorinsky, Street, and many more. Winn first described out of > school spaces for learning and then either found similar spaces or applied > these lessons to more formal learning spaces. > African Diaspora Participatory Literacy Communities > > Winn describes African Diaspora Participatory Literacy Communities to > encapsulate the poet cafes and bookstores she studies: > > ADPLCs, as literacy or literary-centered events outside of school and work > communities that combined oral, aural, and written traditions through an > exchange of words, sounds, and movements that privileged a Black aesthetic > > She then describe many of the tenants of learning found in socio-cultural > views of learning. Lately, and I think too often removed (or maybe all > inclusiveO from their theoretical base, this framework has been > labeled connected > learning . It is interesting to see Winn > draw > on many of the same principles. > > Winn?s description of learning matches Gee?s adaptation of Community > into Affinity > Spaces. > > Like other open mics, POSA, is an invitation to both novice and seasoned > poets to share their writing in a space that promotes reading, writing, > thinking, and activism, as well as collabo- ration among elders and > children. V.S. Chochezi and Staajabu, the mother daughter poetry duo also > known as Straight Out Scribes (SOS), begin with saying ?hello,? in several > languages punctuated with a decidedly urbanized ?What?s up!? > > She draws Gutierrez?s ( 2008 ): > > concept of ?sociocritical literacy??that is a ?historicizing literacy? that > privileges the lived experiences and legacies of participants?provided the > much needed space to analyze the activities of both classes against the > backdrop of a history of Black poets and writers. > > This notion of learning as a sense of community around a shared purpose was > traced back to The Black Arts Movement which > > unapologetically sought to incorporate a Black aesthetic into visual and > performing arts along side the Black Power Movement, which advocated > self-determination and self-definition among Black Americans > > What is interesting is this Black aesthetic, as of all American History > greatly influences our cultures. You see this in the rise of hip hop > culture. I actually stumbled into a similar space for learning in > Cambridge, MA. > > > What made the ADPLC a space where learning thrived was community and a > shared purpose. > Poppa Joe and Mamma C > > Winn then described a few formal learning places that drew from the same > history and values of the out of school places. Once again community came > first. > > When describing one classroom Winn wrote: > > These student poets used the Power Writing circle to build community while > reading original compositions aloud in an open mic format, much like the > venues I observed in Northern California, and engaging in giving and > receiving feedback. In the context of these literacy communities, Poppa Joe > and his guest teachers taught by modeling. > > Culturally responsive classrooms were also central to the Winn?s thesis. > Yet she noted these were often hardest for classrooms. Winn and Latrise P. > Johnson explored culturally relevant pedagogy. They describe how it means > much more then reading a book with a black kid on the cover.In fact Winn > notes that the most successful spaces drew on student lives: > > used the material of students? lived experiences, such as disproportionate > contact with law enforcement and police brutality, as resources for rich > dialogue and their struggle to translate the dialogue into writing > > As Peter Samgorinsky pointed out recently on the XMCA listserv this work > reflects recent scholarship by David Kirkland > who detailed the many powerful ways > black youth challenge dominant narratives. > > Winn points out that it is the arts that are the dominant path to having > students write their own story on to the world. She noted: > > I also learned how theater arts builds community and supports marginalized > youth as they build and sustain literate identities. > > Learning from Winn > > Literacy instruction is identity work. It is political. The question was > posed on the XMCA listserv about recreating these experiences in the > classroom. > > Anna Aguilar noted a memory of a teacher creating a Zine. Smagorinsky > stressed the role of coaches. I couldn?t agree more. We need to realign > schools so that students are empowered by designing the community. I was > intrigued by this idea in the listserv: > > For Ilyenkov, language is not the ideal, but its ?objectified being?, its > material form. The ideal does not exist in language for Ilyenkov, or in > other material phenomena, but in forms of human activity. > > In many ways writing instruction must be attached to a human activity. > Technically it already is an activity but it is one students are forced > into and motivated by exploring new identities in memes or engaging in > coaching relationships such as in Soccer. > > In fact Michael Cole posed these questions after reading Winn?s work: > > [How do we] better understand how the special teachers, those who were > involved in > local community literacy practices/values/histories, managed to include > them in their public high school classrooms with all of the rules, > regulations, standardized testing, etc. that is involved. > > Does such boundary shattering require exceptional people? > or perhaps > > What are the boundaries to such boundary shattering?? > > Community Matters > > These efforts do take exceptional people. They also require us to challenge > the boundaries, such as limited views of literacy. > > Our fascination with accountability reform is at the heart of ripping away > what Winn values. Kirkland, as Peter points out, notes how limited > assessments of what counts help to dissuade youth as school is done to the > them. > > Winn wants learning done onto the world. As Michael Glassman (again on the > XMCA listerv) noted Papa Joe and Mamma C did more than teach language arts. > We must recognize community where ever it exists. > < > http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2015/how-we-misrepresent-the-school-security-guard > > > > Another barrier arose around accountability based reform and that is the > removal of the arts from schools. Content rich instruction and arts that > allow students to do the identity work necessary to be civic and community > ready. > > Can these exceptional teachers exist. Yes. Are they rare. Yes, that is the > definition of exceptional. Are they only found in school? No. > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 5:51 PM Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > Well, ed schools are pretty disputatious places, so I'd never say that > > there's an orthodoxy to follow. I'd agree with your situated perspective, > > even as the world of ed psych still appears to operate between the ears. > > There are teachers who import all sorts of interesting possibilities into > > their classrooms, even with all the oppressive testing and centralized > > curricula that assume that all kids' minds have the same architecture > (that > > might be the wrong word, since it might come across as static--other > terms > > welcome). > > > > Hoping for others to weigh in. p > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 5:28 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth > > across Time and Space > > > > Peter- > > > > At first I didn't get at all what the connection between the discussion > of > > Ilyenkov and Maisha's work, but I think its a great idea to discuss the > > question you pose. Is "literacy" idealized differently in the two > > communities of practice (school and outside-school)? I have difficulty > > keeping straight with ideas such as "subjective image of reality" but > there > > seems to be little doubt that there are different values being embodied > in > > standard school literacy practices and the multi-modal, > multi-generational > > practices in the sites that Maisha describes. Seems like this could be a > > useful lens for addressing my question about > how.when.under-what-conditions > > the practices and associated values of an evening get together at a > > community center can be at least part of a high school educational > > curriculum. > > > > Only sometimes under special conditions seems to be the answer. Is that > > answer accepted in Ed schools these days? > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Peter Smagorinsky > wrote: > > > > > OK, I hit send accidentally. To continue: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Peter Smagorinsky > > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 4:02 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories > > > of Youth across Time and Space > > > > > > I'm going to do some exploratory thinking here, so please pardon the > > > half-baked nature of what follows (half-baked is a long-time value on > > > xmca in its embrace of thoughts in emergent process). > > > > > > Winn's article has gotten little traction as a discussion topic, so > > > I'll combine it with something that's gotten even less attention, an > > > article that someone (Annalisa, I think) sent awhile back and that I'm > > > re-attaching here. > > > > > > I'm focusing on the early section about Ilyenkov's notion of the > > > ideal, which I can't say I completely grasp. So please bear with me as > > > I grope my way through this effort to link the two articles. I'll > > > paste in the section of the attachment that I see as potentially, if > > > I'm getting this right, helpful in understanding Winn's essay: > > > > > > Although there is a considerable literature in the West that focuses > > > on the r?le of language in the social production of consciousness, > > > what sets Ilyenkov apart is his distinction between language and the > > > ideal. For Ilyenkov, language is not the ideal, but its ?objectified > > > being?,27 its material form. he ideal does not exist in language for > > > Ilyenkov, or in other material phenomena, but in forms of human > > > activity. His entry on the ideal in the 1962 encyclop?dia-article > > > defines it as ?the subjective image of objective reality, i.e. a > > > reflection of the external world in forms of human activity, in forms > > > of its consciousness and will?.28 One can think of the ideal as the > > > significance that matter assumes in the process of its transformation > > > by human activity. In other words, it is only in-and-through human > > > activity that matter takes on the character of an object with > > significance. > > > To be clear, Ilyenkov was not referring only to parts of the material > > > world that individuals directly transform, but to all matter that > > > society comes ?in contact? > > > with. Idealisation is, for > > > him, a social phenomenon. In the same encyclop?dia-entry, he wrote: > > > An ideal image, say of bread, may arise in the imagination of a hungry > > > man or of a baker. In the head of a satiated man occupied with > > > building a house, ideal bread does not arise. But if we take society > > > as a whole, ideal bread and ideal houses are always in existence, as > > > well as any ideal object with which humanity is concerned in the > > > process of production and reproduction of its real, material life. > > > his > > > includes the ideal sky, as an object of astronomy, as a ?natural > > > calendar?, a clock, and compass. In consequence of that, all of nature > > > is idealised in humanity and not just that part which it immediately > > > produces or reproduces or consumes in a practical way.29 > > > >From this perspective, all matter appears in individual consciousness > > > already transformed > > > and idealised by the activity of previous generations, and this ideal > > > informs the individual?s activity in the present. > > > > > > OK, back to me. What I'm wondering is this: Is "literacy" idealized > > > differently in the two communities of practice (school and > > outside-school)? > > > In school, at least formally, literacy is idealized as the "proper" > > > use of language in textual production and composition, with only the > > > most formal versions acceptable as evidence of literate performance. > > > Adherence to formal rules is the only way to meet the scholastic > > > ideal. At the same time, as soon as kids leave class and go into the > > > hall, other ideals become available, at least for 5 minutes of passing > > time. > > > > > > Outside school, the whole world of literacy possibilities become > > > available, with many ideals to guide production. The discourse genres > > > that govern spoken word performances for the communities of practice > > > that Winn focuses on are one possibility, but there are countless > > > possibilities that suit different trajectories. > > > > > > Well, hope that makes some sense. I'm entirely open to the possibility > > > that I've misunderstood Ilyenkov in seeking a way to understand him > > > via Winn. As we say in the South: What do y'all think? p > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. > Waddington > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Mar 31 08:56:41 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 15:56:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: References: <1427664212985.63755@unm.edu> , Message-ID: <1427817400613.51136@unm.edu> Hello Larry and esteemed others, I'm wondering if my posts are getting out there? I had offered that there was the possibility of the energetic rewards that come with doing an outside-school, in-the-bookstore activity for the teachers Poppa John and Mamma C? I was also unsure of the idea of shattering of boundaries? Is that a fair representation that boundaries are shattered? Can't they just be transforming? Shattering sounds so violent and aggressive. Also, Maisha uses the word "trajectories" which suggests to me jumping over boundaries, with a movement upwards, boundaries that (normally) confine or constrain, unless we are to interpret this adjective as a missile going through a wall. I didn't ever think that the reason for doing poetry slams was to break down walls in schools, but to raise community awareness and stimulate agency in young people, both which create joyful belonging in a time of their lives when joyful belonging is not present in their educational experiences. This in addition to encouraging them to participate in a river-like tradition of writing and orality among the African diaspora, a tradition which is not a dead thing, but something quite, quite alive. Joyful belonging is a part of literacy I think, why do we read anything, if not for that? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Larry Purss Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 12:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space Greg McVerry, I share your wanting to explore what makes these teachers exceptional. You repeated Mike's question and I will repeat it again as we need to explore what "type" or "kind" of situation develops these exceptional teachers [in and out of school. Greg wrote, In fact Michael Cole posed these questions after reading Winn?s work: [How do we] better understand how the special teachers, those who were involved in local community literacy practices/values/histories, managed to include them in their public high school classrooms with all of the rules, regulations, standardized testing, etc. that is involved. Does such boundary shattering require exceptional people? or perhaps What are the boundaries to such boundary shattering?? So the question becomes do we need exceptional people [with agentic will and purpose] that enables the shattering of "boundaries" or do we need social "situations" that have a certain definition/boundary that "contains" the energy required to shatter or break through preconceived boundaries. Another way to discuss "social situations" is to use the concept of "worlds" that express a "subject matter" that matters. Winn uses the metaphor of "spaces" when she asks "In what spaces do people of African descent engage in literate practices such as reading, writing, and speaking, beyond school settings?" Now I ask if it is "necessary" that these alternative "spaces" of "experiential" learning may be "necessary" AS MODELS in order for possible "boundary shattering" in schools. In other words, there must be alternative "subject matter that matters" that may be necessary before boundary shattering of preconceived notions of "formal schooling" becomes possible. This is a notion of "dialectical" moving reciprocally from the known to unknown AND from the unknown to the known. The "known" in this retrospective was honouring "tradition" and expressing loyalty to "tradition". Winn asks what are the "salient" characteristics of these literacy communities that honoured tradition? The most salient characteristic is that these literacy communities ARE MEDIATING spaces in which tradition "speaks" and is performed and it is these "spaces" which offer the containers/boundaries AS MODELS for navigating the labyrinths of preconceived formal schooling. This focus on honouring what has come before is recognizing a "historicizing literacy" as another salient characteristic of this "mediating space". Subject matters that matter emerge within pre-existing traditions that acknowledge the "textured lives" of our youth. These salient characteristics are moving beyond the traditional conceptualizations of literacy to focus on "experiences" of literacy as encounters with the "subject matter". [that matter to the subjects/youth. Winn describes these activities as forging collective "third spaces" [page 59] which CULTIVATE literate identities emerging within traditions of being. These third spaces provide rich historical contexts that are necessary in Winn's retrospective to accomplish boundary shattering within formal schooling. To preserve literate historical communities [as locations of shared identity] it was necessary to "stage" literate "events" viewed by their participants as a "mission" that presented subject matter that matters. Winn is describing the manifestation of a "legacy" of literacy within a tradition for people of African descent which "inspires" the participants. Winn chose to begin her retrospective in the 1940's leading up to present day literacy movements as presentations of subject matter that matters AS LEGACY. In the exchanging of written and "spoken" words [as sayings] community institutions are formed that extending the traditons that exist as "living tradition" and not merely history as the past. THIS is a diacritical understanding, of tradition as continuing to be 'living' within current community as democratic engagement. Poppa John and Mamma C participated passionately and intimately within this particular "tradition" Was it them as agentic individuals that was "exceptional" or was it the subject matter that matters that was "exceptional"? I propose that what is exceptional is to be able to stage events that keeps this tradition "alive". To return to Mike's question, it seems that the "salient" characteristics is to view language and word as expressions of a p articularsubject matter that matters [is meaningful]. Gadamer would ask "who is doing the "speaking"? and he would answer it is the subject matter that "speaks" diacritically through encountering "traditions" that risk our prejudices. I suggest that it is possible to understand Winn's retrospective as this type of a quest to honour the tradition/subject matter that speaks through us. In this speaking "through" the tradition boundaries are shattered and we can possibly approach the future as continuing to live the truth of our tradition as empowering the subject matter that matters. I am aware that my focusing on the term "tradition" will generate a response and am fully aware of the "shadow side" of tradition as "static" or "systematic" but I am suggesting there is another way to understand tradition as expressed in Winn's retrospective reflections on what she has come to value as developing within a social situation as an intimate third space of mediation. Larry On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 7:53 PM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > Barriers do arise in schools. Many students live behind walls, both real > and imagined, dictated by the needs that survival necessitates. > > Words and meaning have power, and this makes learning a political act. > School should never be *done* to students rather students should*do* their > learning on to the world. > > I truly believe we have education backwards. We strive for college and > career readiness hoping to grow GDP with a flow of technical workers as > means for civic contribution. Instead we should worry first about community > and civic readiness. Then, and only then, will college and career follow > for those who have been robbed of their agency and culture. > > When students leave schools wanting to make communities a better place they > engage in literacy practices steeped in academic discourse. When kids see > how they can ?get theres? by being an agent in the world many realize life > requires learning beyond high school. > > Community, as a thread, permeates Maisha Winn?s retrospective on her > research. In Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth Across Time and > Space Winn described a > series of ethnographic studies that draw heavily on the socio-cultural work > of Heath and the literacy as action found in the work of Cole, Gutierrez, > Lunsford, Smagorinsky, Street, and many more. Winn first described out of > school spaces for learning and then either found similar spaces or applied > these lessons to more formal learning spaces. > African Diaspora Participatory Literacy Communities > > Winn describes African Diaspora Participatory Literacy Communities to > encapsulate the poet cafes and bookstores she studies: > > ADPLCs, as literacy or literary-centered events outside of school and work > communities that combined oral, aural, and written traditions through an > exchange of words, sounds, and movements that privileged a Black aesthetic > > She then describe many of the tenants of learning found in socio-cultural > views of learning. Lately, and I think too often removed (or maybe all > inclusiveO from their theoretical base, this framework has been > labeled connected > learning . It is interesting to see Winn > draw > on many of the same principles. > > Winn?s description of learning matches Gee?s adaptation of Community > into Affinity > Spaces. > > Like other open mics, POSA, is an invitation to both novice and seasoned > poets to share their writing in a space that promotes reading, writing, > thinking, and activism, as well as collabo- ration among elders and > children. V.S. Chochezi and Staajabu, the mother daughter poetry duo also > known as Straight Out Scribes (SOS), begin with saying ?hello,? in several > languages punctuated with a decidedly urbanized ?What?s up!? > > She draws Gutierrez?s ( 2008 ): > > concept of ?sociocritical literacy??that is a ?historicizing literacy? that > privileges the lived experiences and legacies of participants?provided the > much needed space to analyze the activities of both classes against the > backdrop of a history of Black poets and writers. > > This notion of learning as a sense of community around a shared purpose was > traced back to The Black Arts Movement which > > unapologetically sought to incorporate a Black aesthetic into visual and > performing arts along side the Black Power Movement, which advocated > self-determination and self-definition among Black Americans > > What is interesting is this Black aesthetic, as of all American History > greatly influences our cultures. You see this in the rise of hip hop > culture. I actually stumbled into a similar space for learning in > Cambridge, MA. > > > What made the ADPLC a space where learning thrived was community and a > shared purpose. > Poppa Joe and Mamma C > > Winn then described a few formal learning places that drew from the same > history and values of the out of school places. Once again community came > first. > > When describing one classroom Winn wrote: > > These student poets used the Power Writing circle to build community while > reading original compositions aloud in an open mic format, much like the > venues I observed in Northern California, and engaging in giving and > receiving feedback. In the context of these literacy communities, Poppa Joe > and his guest teachers taught by modeling. > > Culturally responsive classrooms were also central to the Winn?s thesis. > Yet she noted these were often hardest for classrooms. Winn and Latrise P. > Johnson explored culturally relevant pedagogy. They describe how it means > much more then reading a book with a black kid on the cover.In fact Winn > notes that the most successful spaces drew on student lives: > > used the material of students? lived experiences, such as disproportionate > contact with law enforcement and police brutality, as resources for rich > dialogue and their struggle to translate the dialogue into writing > > As Peter Samgorinsky pointed out recently on the XMCA listserv this work > reflects recent scholarship by David Kirkland > who detailed the many powerful ways > black youth challenge dominant narratives. > > Winn points out that it is the arts that are the dominant path to having > students write their own story on to the world. She noted: > > I also learned how theater arts builds community and supports marginalized > youth as they build and sustain literate identities. > > Learning from Winn > > Literacy instruction is identity work. It is political. The question was > posed on the XMCA listserv about recreating these experiences in the > classroom. > > Anna Aguilar noted a memory of a teacher creating a Zine. Smagorinsky > stressed the role of coaches. I couldn?t agree more. We need to realign > schools so that students are empowered by designing the community. I was > intrigued by this idea in the listserv: > > For Ilyenkov, language is not the ideal, but its ?objectified being?, its > material form. The ideal does not exist in language for Ilyenkov, or in > other material phenomena, but in forms of human activity. > > In many ways writing instruction must be attached to a human activity. > Technically it already is an activity but it is one students are forced > into and motivated by exploring new identities in memes or engaging in > coaching relationships such as in Soccer. > > In fact Michael Cole posed these questions after reading Winn?s work: > > [How do we] better understand how the special teachers, those who were > involved in > local community literacy practices/values/histories, managed to include > them in their public high school classrooms with all of the rules, > regulations, standardized testing, etc. that is involved. > > Does such boundary shattering require exceptional people? > or perhaps > > What are the boundaries to such boundary shattering?? > > Community Matters > > These efforts do take exceptional people. They also require us to challenge > the boundaries, such as limited views of literacy. > > Our fascination with accountability reform is at the heart of ripping away > what Winn values. Kirkland, as Peter points out, notes how limited > assessments of what counts help to dissuade youth as school is done to the > them. > > Winn wants learning done onto the world. As Michael Glassman (again on the > XMCA listerv) noted Papa Joe and Mamma C did more than teach language arts. > We must recognize community where ever it exists. > < > http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2015/how-we-misrepresent-the-school-security-guard > > > > Another barrier arose around accountability based reform and that is the > removal of the arts from schools. Content rich instruction and arts that > allow students to do the identity work necessary to be civic and community > ready. > > Can these exceptional teachers exist. Yes. Are they rare. Yes, that is the > definition of exceptional. Are they only found in school? No. > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 5:51 PM Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > Well, ed schools are pretty disputatious places, so I'd never say that > > there's an orthodoxy to follow. I'd agree with your situated perspective, > > even as the world of ed psych still appears to operate between the ears. > > There are teachers who import all sorts of interesting possibilities into > > their classrooms, even with all the oppressive testing and centralized > > curricula that assume that all kids' minds have the same architecture > (that > > might be the wrong word, since it might come across as static--other > terms > > welcome). > > > > Hoping for others to weigh in. p > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 5:28 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth > > across Time and Space > > > > Peter- > > > > At first I didn't get at all what the connection between the discussion > of > > Ilyenkov and Maisha's work, but I think its a great idea to discuss the > > question you pose. Is "literacy" idealized differently in the two > > communities of practice (school and outside-school)? I have difficulty > > keeping straight with ideas such as "subjective image of reality" but > there > > seems to be little doubt that there are different values being embodied > in > > standard school literacy practices and the multi-modal, > multi-generational > > practices in the sites that Maisha describes. Seems like this could be a > > useful lens for addressing my question about > how.when.under-what-conditions > > the practices and associated values of an evening get together at a > > community center can be at least part of a high school educational > > curriculum. > > > > Only sometimes under special conditions seems to be the answer. Is that > > answer accepted in Ed schools these days? > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Peter Smagorinsky > wrote: > > > > > OK, I hit send accidentally. To continue: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Peter Smagorinsky > > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 4:02 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories > > > of Youth across Time and Space > > > > > > I'm going to do some exploratory thinking here, so please pardon the > > > half-baked nature of what follows (half-baked is a long-time value on > > > xmca in its embrace of thoughts in emergent process). > > > > > > Winn's article has gotten little traction as a discussion topic, so > > > I'll combine it with something that's gotten even less attention, an > > > article that someone (Annalisa, I think) sent awhile back and that I'm > > > re-attaching here. > > > > > > I'm focusing on the early section about Ilyenkov's notion of the > > > ideal, which I can't say I completely grasp. So please bear with me as > > > I grope my way through this effort to link the two articles. I'll > > > paste in the section of the attachment that I see as potentially, if > > > I'm getting this right, helpful in understanding Winn's essay: > > > > > > Although there is a considerable literature in the West that focuses > > > on the r?le of language in the social production of consciousness, > > > what sets Ilyenkov apart is his distinction between language and the > > > ideal. For Ilyenkov, language is not the ideal, but its ?objectified > > > being?,27 its material form. he ideal does not exist in language for > > > Ilyenkov, or in other material phenomena, but in forms of human > > > activity. His entry on the ideal in the 1962 encyclop?dia-article > > > defines it as ?the subjective image of objective reality, i.e. a > > > reflection of the external world in forms of human activity, in forms > > > of its consciousness and will?.28 One can think of the ideal as the > > > significance that matter assumes in the process of its transformation > > > by human activity. In other words, it is only in-and-through human > > > activity that matter takes on the character of an object with > > significance. > > > To be clear, Ilyenkov was not referring only to parts of the material > > > world that individuals directly transform, but to all matter that > > > society comes ?in contact? > > > with. Idealisation is, for > > > him, a social phenomenon. In the same encyclop?dia-entry, he wrote: > > > An ideal image, say of bread, may arise in the imagination of a hungry > > > man or of a baker. In the head of a satiated man occupied with > > > building a house, ideal bread does not arise. But if we take society > > > as a whole, ideal bread and ideal houses are always in existence, as > > > well as any ideal object with which humanity is concerned in the > > > process of production and reproduction of its real, material life. > > > his > > > includes the ideal sky, as an object of astronomy, as a ?natural > > > calendar?, a clock, and compass. In consequence of that, all of nature > > > is idealised in humanity and not just that part which it immediately > > > produces or reproduces or consumes in a practical way.29 > > > >From this perspective, all matter appears in individual consciousness > > > already transformed > > > and idealised by the activity of previous generations, and this ideal > > > informs the individual?s activity in the present. > > > > > > OK, back to me. What I'm wondering is this: Is "literacy" idealized > > > differently in the two communities of practice (school and > > outside-school)? > > > In school, at least formally, literacy is idealized as the "proper" > > > use of language in textual production and composition, with only the > > > most formal versions acceptable as evidence of literate performance. > > > Adherence to formal rules is the only way to meet the scholastic > > > ideal. At the same time, as soon as kids leave class and go into the > > > hall, other ideals become available, at least for 5 minutes of passing > > time. > > > > > > Outside school, the whole world of literacy possibilities become > > > available, with many ideals to guide production. The discourse genres > > > that govern spoken word performances for the communities of practice > > > that Winn focuses on are one possibility, but there are countless > > > possibilities that suit different trajectories. > > > > > > Well, hope that makes some sense. I'm entirely open to the possibility > > > that I've misunderstood Ilyenkov in seeking a way to understand him > > > via Winn. As we say in the South: What do y'all think? p > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. > Waddington > > > > > From glassman.13@osu.edu Tue Mar 31 09:16:34 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 16:16:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: <1427817400613.51136@unm.edu> References: <1427664212985.63755@unm.edu> , <1427817400613.51136@unm.edu> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBE507@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> Annalisa, I agree with this completely, "I didn't ever think that the reason for doing poetry slams was to break down walls in schools, but to raise community awareness and stimulate agency in young people, both which create joyful belonging in a time of their lives when joyful belonging is not present in their educational experiences. This in addition to encouraging them to participate in a river-like tradition of writing and orality among the African diaspora, a tradition which is not a dead thing, but something quite, quite alive." But then I think Mike poignant and urgent question moves to the forefront, how do you get teachers to then bring this joyful experience into the literacy processes, the interlocutors who we invest with this responsibility - without relying on very specialized personalities that seem to be part of Poppa Joe's and Momma C's personality, and even they seemed to need to establish a second environment where this literacy is acceptable or at least not challenged. I just had a long talk with a student. We were talking about something as simple as moving away from a rubric, and yet as much as he has questioned the ideas of formalized education, he is having trouble thinking outside of what he has been taught is good education. A second compelling question asked is can we, I guess use educational schools to advance this idea of a joyful literacy deeply based in traditions and participation in culture. But many of the students in schools of education are there because they were successful in formalized education practices. It is really hard to convince somebody in practice if not in theory there might be another way, even if the way that is being critiqued is failing. To paraphrase Upton Sinclair, It is very hard to convince and educator of one approach when their expertise in education has been developed and is dependent on another approach. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 11:57 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space Hello Larry and esteemed others, I'm wondering if my posts are getting out there? I had offered that there was the possibility of the energetic rewards that come with doing an outside-school, in-the-bookstore activity for the teachers Poppa John and Mamma C? I was also unsure of the idea of shattering of boundaries? Is that a fair representation that boundaries are shattered? Can't they just be transforming? Shattering sounds so violent and aggressive. Also, Maisha uses the word "trajectories" which suggests to me jumping over boundaries, with a movement upwards, boundaries that (normally) confine or constrain, unless we are to interpret this adjective as a missile going through a wall. I didn't ever think that the reason for doing poetry slams was to break down walls in schools, but to raise community awareness and stimulate agency in young people, both which create joyful belonging in a time of their lives when joyful belonging is not present in their educational experiences. This in addition to encouraging them to participate in a river-like tradition of writing and orality among the African diaspora, a tradition which is not a dead thing, but something quite, quite alive. Joyful belonging is a part of literacy I think, why do we read anything, if not for that? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Larry Purss Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 12:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space Greg McVerry, I share your wanting to explore what makes these teachers exceptional. You repeated Mike's question and I will repeat it again as we need to explore what "type" or "kind" of situation develops these exceptional teachers [in and out of school. Greg wrote, In fact Michael Cole posed these questions after reading Winn's work: [How do we] better understand how the special teachers, those who were involved in local community literacy practices/values/histories, managed to include them in their public high school classrooms with all of the rules, regulations, standardized testing, etc. that is involved. Does such boundary shattering require exceptional people? or perhaps What are the boundaries to such boundary shattering?? So the question becomes do we need exceptional people [with agentic will and purpose] that enables the shattering of "boundaries" or do we need social "situations" that have a certain definition/boundary that "contains" the energy required to shatter or break through preconceived boundaries. Another way to discuss "social situations" is to use the concept of "worlds" that express a "subject matter" that matters. Winn uses the metaphor of "spaces" when she asks "In what spaces do people of African descent engage in literate practices such as reading, writing, and speaking, beyond school settings?" Now I ask if it is "necessary" that these alternative "spaces" of "experiential" learning may be "necessary" AS MODELS in order for possible "boundary shattering" in schools. In other words, there must be alternative "subject matter that matters" that may be necessary before boundary shattering of preconceived notions of "formal schooling" becomes possible. This is a notion of "dialectical" moving reciprocally from the known to unknown AND from the unknown to the known. The "known" in this retrospective was honouring "tradition" and expressing loyalty to "tradition". Winn asks what are the "salient" characteristics of these literacy communities that honoured tradition? The most salient characteristic is that these literacy communities ARE MEDIATING spaces in which tradition "speaks" and is performed and it is these "spaces" which offer the containers/boundaries AS MODELS for navigating the labyrinths of preconceived formal schooling. This focus on honouring what has come before is recognizing a "historicizing literacy" as another salient characteristic of this "mediating space". Subject matters that matter emerge within pre-existing traditions that acknowledge the "textured lives" of our youth. These salient characteristics are moving beyond the traditional conceptualizations of literacy to focus on "experiences" of literacy as encounters with the "subject matter". [that matter to the subjects/youth. Winn describes these activities as forging collective "third spaces" [page 59] which CULTIVATE literate identities emerging within traditions of being. These third spaces provide rich historical contexts that are necessary in Winn's retrospective to accomplish boundary shattering within formal schooling. To preserve literate historical communities [as locations of shared identity] it was necessary to "stage" literate "events" viewed by their participants as a "mission" that presented subject matter that matters. Winn is describing the manifestation of a "legacy" of literacy within a tradition for people of African descent which "inspires" the participants. Winn chose to begin her retrospective in the 1940's leading up to present day literacy movements as presentations of subject matter that matters AS LEGACY. In the exchanging of written and "spoken" words [as sayings] community institutions are formed that extending the traditons that exist as "living tradition" and not merely history as the past. THIS is a diacritical understanding, of tradition as continuing to be 'living' within current community as democratic engagement. Poppa John and Mamma C participated passionately and intimately within this particular "tradition" Was it them as agentic individuals that was "exceptional" or was it the subject matter that matters that was "exceptional"? I propose that what is exceptional is to be able to stage events that keeps this tradition "alive". To return to Mike's question, it seems that the "salient" characteristics is to view language and word as expressions of a p articularsubject matter that matters [is meaningful]. Gadamer would ask "who is doing the "speaking"? and he would answer it is the subject matter that "speaks" diacritically through encountering "traditions" that risk our prejudices. I suggest that it is possible to understand Winn's retrospective as this type of a quest to honour the tradition/subject matter that speaks through us. In this speaking "through" the tradition boundaries are shattered and we can possibly approach the future as continuing to live the truth of our tradition as empowering the subject matter that matters. I am aware that my focusing on the term "tradition" will generate a response and am fully aware of the "shadow side" of tradition as "static" or "systematic" but I am suggesting there is another way to understand tradition as expressed in Winn's retrospective reflections on what she has come to value as developing within a social situation as an intimate third space of mediation. Larry On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 7:53 PM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > Barriers do arise in schools. Many students live behind walls, both > real and imagined, dictated by the needs that survival necessitates. > > Words and meaning have power, and this makes learning a political act. > School should never be *done* to students rather students should*do* > their learning on to the world. > > I truly believe we have education backwards. We strive for college and > career readiness hoping to grow GDP with a flow of technical workers > as means for civic contribution. Instead we should worry first about > community and civic readiness. Then, and only then, will college and > career follow for those who have been robbed of their agency and culture. > > When students leave schools wanting to make communities a better place > they engage in literacy practices steeped in academic discourse. When > kids see how they can "get theres" by being an agent in the world many > realize life requires learning beyond high school. > > Community, as a thread, permeates Maisha Winn's retrospective on her > research. In Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth Across Time > and Space Winn > described a series of ethnographic studies that draw heavily on the > socio-cultural work of Heath and the literacy as action found in the > work of Cole, Gutierrez, Lunsford, Smagorinsky, Street, and many > more. Winn first described out of school spaces for learning and then > either found similar spaces or applied these lessons to more formal learning spaces. > African Diaspora Participatory Literacy Communities > > Winn describes African Diaspora Participatory Literacy Communities to > encapsulate the poet cafes and bookstores she studies: > > ADPLCs, as literacy or literary-centered events outside of school and > work communities that combined oral, aural, and written traditions > through an exchange of words, sounds, and movements that privileged a > Black aesthetic > > She then describe many of the tenants of learning found in > socio-cultural views of learning. Lately, and I think too often > removed (or maybe all inclusiveO from their theoretical base, this > framework has been labeled connected learning > . It is interesting to see Winn draw on > many of the same principles. > > Winn's description of learning matches Gee's adaptation of Community > into Affinity Spaces. > > Like other open mics, POSA, is an invitation to both novice and > seasoned poets to share their writing in a space that promotes > reading, writing, thinking, and activism, as well as collabo- ration > among elders and children. V.S. Chochezi and Staajabu, the mother > daughter poetry duo also known as Straight Out Scribes (SOS), begin > with saying "hello," in several languages punctuated with a decidedly urbanized "What's up!" > > She draws Gutierrez's ( 2008 ): > > concept of "sociocritical literacy"-that is a "historicizing literacy" > that privileges the lived experiences and legacies of > participants-provided the much needed space to analyze the activities > of both classes against the backdrop of a history of Black poets and writers. > > This notion of learning as a sense of community around a shared > purpose was traced back to The Black Arts Movement which > > unapologetically sought to incorporate a Black aesthetic into visual > and performing arts along side the Black Power Movement, which > advocated self-determination and self-definition among Black Americans > > What is interesting is this Black aesthetic, as of all American > History greatly influences our cultures. You see this in the rise of > hip hop culture. I actually stumbled into a similar space for learning > in Cambridge, MA. > > > What made the ADPLC a space where learning thrived was community and a > shared purpose. > Poppa Joe and Mamma C > > Winn then described a few formal learning places that drew from the > same history and values of the out of school places. Once again > community came first. > > When describing one classroom Winn wrote: > > These student poets used the Power Writing circle to build community > while reading original compositions aloud in an open mic format, much > like the venues I observed in Northern California, and engaging in > giving and receiving feedback. In the context of these literacy > communities, Poppa Joe and his guest teachers taught by modeling. > > Culturally responsive classrooms were also central to the Winn's thesis. > Yet she noted these were often hardest for classrooms. Winn and Latrise P. > Johnson explored culturally relevant pedagogy. They describe how it > means much more then reading a book with a black kid on the cover.In > fact Winn notes that the most successful spaces drew on student lives: > > used the material of students' lived experiences, such as > disproportionate contact with law enforcement and police brutality, as > resources for rich dialogue and their struggle to translate the > dialogue into writing > > As Peter Samgorinsky pointed out recently on the XMCA listserv this > work reflects recent scholarship by David Kirkland > who detailed the many powerful > ways black youth challenge dominant narratives. > > Winn points out that it is the arts that are the dominant path to > having students write their own story on to the world. She noted: > > I also learned how theater arts builds community and supports > marginalized youth as they build and sustain literate identities. > > Learning from Winn > > Literacy instruction is identity work. It is political. The question > was posed on the XMCA listserv about recreating these experiences in > the classroom. > > Anna Aguilar noted a memory of a teacher creating a Zine. Smagorinsky > stressed the role of coaches. I couldn't agree more. We need to > realign schools so that students are empowered by designing the > community. I was intrigued by this idea in the listserv: > > For Ilyenkov, language is not the ideal, but its 'objectified being', > its material form. The ideal does not exist in language for Ilyenkov, > or in other material phenomena, but in forms of human activity. > > In many ways writing instruction must be attached to a human activity. > Technically it already is an activity but it is one students are > forced into and motivated by exploring new identities in memes or > engaging in coaching relationships such as in Soccer. > > In fact Michael Cole posed these questions after reading Winn's work: > > [How do we] better understand how the special teachers, those who were > involved in local community literacy practices/values/histories, > managed to include them in their public high school classrooms with > all of the rules, regulations, standardized testing, etc. that is > involved. > > Does such boundary shattering require exceptional people? > or perhaps > > What are the boundaries to such boundary shattering?? > > Community Matters > > These efforts do take exceptional people. They also require us to > challenge the boundaries, such as limited views of literacy. > > Our fascination with accountability reform is at the heart of ripping > away what Winn values. Kirkland, as Peter points out, notes how > limited assessments of what counts help to dissuade youth as school is > done to the them. > > Winn wants learning done onto the world. As Michael Glassman (again on > the XMCA listerv) noted Papa Joe and Mamma C did more than teach language arts. > We must recognize community where ever it exists. > < > http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2015/how-we-misrepresent-the- > school-security-guard > > > > Another barrier arose around accountability based reform and that is > the removal of the arts from schools. Content rich instruction and > arts that allow students to do the identity work necessary to be civic > and community ready. > > Can these exceptional teachers exist. Yes. Are they rare. Yes, that is > the definition of exceptional. Are they only found in school? No. > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 5:51 PM Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > Well, ed schools are pretty disputatious places, so I'd never say > > that there's an orthodoxy to follow. I'd agree with your situated > > perspective, even as the world of ed psych still appears to operate between the ears. > > There are teachers who import all sorts of interesting possibilities > > into their classrooms, even with all the oppressive testing and > > centralized curricula that assume that all kids' minds have the same > > architecture > (that > > might be the wrong word, since it might come across as static--other > terms > > welcome). > > > > Hoping for others to weigh in. p > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 5:28 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of > > Youth across Time and Space > > > > Peter- > > > > At first I didn't get at all what the connection between the > > discussion > of > > Ilyenkov and Maisha's work, but I think its a great idea to discuss > > the question you pose. Is "literacy" idealized differently in the > > two communities of practice (school and outside-school)? I have > > difficulty keeping straight with ideas such as "subjective image of > > reality" but > there > > seems to be little doubt that there are different values being > > embodied > in > > standard school literacy practices and the multi-modal, > multi-generational > > practices in the sites that Maisha describes. Seems like this could > > be a useful lens for addressing my question about > how.when.under-what-conditions > > the practices and associated values of an evening get together at a > > community center can be at least part of a high school educational > > curriculum. > > > > Only sometimes under special conditions seems to be the answer. Is > > that answer accepted in Ed schools these days? > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Peter Smagorinsky > wrote: > > > > > OK, I hit send accidentally. To continue: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Peter Smagorinsky > > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 4:02 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate > > > Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space > > > > > > I'm going to do some exploratory thinking here, so please pardon > > > the half-baked nature of what follows (half-baked is a long-time > > > value on xmca in its embrace of thoughts in emergent process). > > > > > > Winn's article has gotten little traction as a discussion topic, > > > so I'll combine it with something that's gotten even less > > > attention, an article that someone (Annalisa, I think) sent awhile > > > back and that I'm re-attaching here. > > > > > > I'm focusing on the early section about Ilyenkov's notion of the > > > ideal, which I can't say I completely grasp. So please bear with > > > me as I grope my way through this effort to link the two articles. > > > I'll paste in the section of the attachment that I see as > > > potentially, if I'm getting this right, helpful in understanding Winn's essay: > > > > > > Although there is a considerable literature in the West that > > > focuses on the r?le of language in the social production of > > > consciousness, what sets Ilyenkov apart is his distinction between > > > language and the ideal. For Ilyenkov, language is not the ideal, > > > but its 'objectified > > > being',27 its material form. he ideal does not exist in language > > > for Ilyenkov, or in other material phenomena, but in forms of > > > human activity. His entry on the ideal in the 1962 > > > encyclop?dia-article defines it as 'the subjective image of > > > objective reality, i.e. a reflection of the external world in > > > forms of human activity, in forms of its consciousness and > > > will'.28 One can think of the ideal as the significance that > > > matter assumes in the process of its transformation by human > > > activity. In other words, it is only in-and-through human activity > > > that matter takes on the character of an object with > > significance. > > > To be clear, Ilyenkov was not referring only to parts of the > > > material world that individuals directly transform, but to all > > > matter that society comes 'in contact' > > > with. Idealisation is, for > > > him, a social phenomenon. In the same encyclop?dia-entry, he wrote: > > > An ideal image, say of bread, may arise in the imagination of a > > > hungry man or of a baker. In the head of a satiated man occupied > > > with building a house, ideal bread does not arise. But if we take > > > society as a whole, ideal bread and ideal houses are always in > > > existence, as well as any ideal object with which humanity is > > > concerned in the process of production and reproduction of its real, material life. > > > his > > > includes the ideal sky, as an object of astronomy, as a 'natural > > > calendar', a clock, and compass. In consequence of that, all of > > > nature is idealised in humanity and not just that part which it > > > immediately produces or reproduces or consumes in a practical > > > way.29 > > > >From this perspective, all matter appears in individual > > > >consciousness > > > already transformed > > > and idealised by the activity of previous generations, and this > > > ideal informs the individual's activity in the present. > > > > > > OK, back to me. What I'm wondering is this: Is "literacy" > > > idealized differently in the two communities of practice (school > > > and > > outside-school)? > > > In school, at least formally, literacy is idealized as the "proper" > > > use of language in textual production and composition, with only > > > the most formal versions acceptable as evidence of literate performance. > > > Adherence to formal rules is the only way to meet the scholastic > > > ideal. At the same time, as soon as kids leave class and go into > > > the hall, other ideals become available, at least for 5 minutes of > > > passing > > time. > > > > > > Outside school, the whole world of literacy possibilities become > > > available, with many ideals to guide production. The discourse > > > genres that govern spoken word performances for the communities of > > > practice that Winn focuses on are one possibility, but there are > > > countless possibilities that suit different trajectories. > > > > > > Well, hope that makes some sense. I'm entirely open to the > > > possibility that I've misunderstood Ilyenkov in seeking a way to > > > understand him via Winn. As we say in the South: What do y'all > > > think? p > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. > Waddington > > > > > From smago@uga.edu Tue Mar 31 09:39:25 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 16:39:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBE507@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> References: <1427664212985.63755@unm.edu> , <1427817400613.51136@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBE507@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Michael, that's not my experience. I think that many colleges of education persuade their preservice teachers of the benefits of teaching in constructivist traditions. It's just hard to put into practice in schools where other approaches have greater value, and where the consequences of the evaluation--getting a job--are higher. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 12:17 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space Annalisa, I agree with this completely, "I didn't ever think that the reason for doing poetry slams was to break down walls in schools, but to raise community awareness and stimulate agency in young people, both which create joyful belonging in a time of their lives when joyful belonging is not present in their educational experiences. This in addition to encouraging them to participate in a river-like tradition of writing and orality among the African diaspora, a tradition which is not a dead thing, but something quite, quite alive." But then I think Mike poignant and urgent question moves to the forefront, how do you get teachers to then bring this joyful experience into the literacy processes, the interlocutors who we invest with this responsibility - without relying on very specialized personalities that seem to be part of Poppa Joe's and Momma C's personality, and even they seemed to need to establish a second environment where this literacy is acceptable or at least not challenged. I just had a long talk with a student. We were talking about something as simple as moving away from a rubric, and yet as much as he has questioned the ideas of formalized education, he is having trouble thinking outside of what he has been taught is good education. A second compelling question asked is can we, I guess use educational schools to advance this idea of a joyful literacy deeply based in traditions and participation in culture. But many of the students in schools of education are there because they were successful in formalized education practices. It is really hard to convince somebody in practice if not in theory there might be another way, even if the way that is being critiqued is failing. To paraphrase Upton Sinclair, It is very hard to convince and educator of one approach when their expertise in education has been developed and is dependent on another approach. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 11:57 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space Hello Larry and esteemed others, I'm wondering if my posts are getting out there? I had offered that there was the possibility of the energetic rewards that come with doing an outside-school, in-the-bookstore activity for the teachers Poppa John and Mamma C? I was also unsure of the idea of shattering of boundaries? Is that a fair representation that boundaries are shattered? Can't they just be transforming? Shattering sounds so violent and aggressive. Also, Maisha uses the word "trajectories" which suggests to me jumping over boundaries, with a movement upwards, boundaries that (normally) confine or constrain, unless we are to interpret this adjective as a missile going through a wall. I didn't ever think that the reason for doing poetry slams was to break down walls in schools, but to raise community awareness and stimulate agency in young people, both which create joyful belonging in a time of their lives when joyful belonging is not present in their educational experiences. This in addition to encouraging them to participate in a river-like tradition of writing and orality among the African diaspora, a tradition which is not a dead thing, but something quite, quite alive. Joyful belonging is a part of literacy I think, why do we read anything, if not for that? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Larry Purss Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 12:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space Greg McVerry, I share your wanting to explore what makes these teachers exceptional. You repeated Mike's question and I will repeat it again as we need to explore what "type" or "kind" of situation develops these exceptional teachers [in and out of school. Greg wrote, In fact Michael Cole posed these questions after reading Winn's work: [How do we] better understand how the special teachers, those who were involved in local community literacy practices/values/histories, managed to include them in their public high school classrooms with all of the rules, regulations, standardized testing, etc. that is involved. Does such boundary shattering require exceptional people? or perhaps What are the boundaries to such boundary shattering?? So the question becomes do we need exceptional people [with agentic will and purpose] that enables the shattering of "boundaries" or do we need social "situations" that have a certain definition/boundary that "contains" the energy required to shatter or break through preconceived boundaries. Another way to discuss "social situations" is to use the concept of "worlds" that express a "subject matter" that matters. Winn uses the metaphor of "spaces" when she asks "In what spaces do people of African descent engage in literate practices such as reading, writing, and speaking, beyond school settings?" Now I ask if it is "necessary" that these alternative "spaces" of "experiential" learning may be "necessary" AS MODELS in order for possible "boundary shattering" in schools. In other words, there must be alternative "subject matter that matters" that may be necessary before boundary shattering of preconceived notions of "formal schooling" becomes possible. This is a notion of "dialectical" moving reciprocally from the known to unknown AND from the unknown to the known. The "known" in this retrospective was honouring "tradition" and expressing loyalty to "tradition". Winn asks what are the "salient" characteristics of these literacy communities that honoured tradition? The most salient characteristic is that these literacy communities ARE MEDIATING spaces in which tradition "speaks" and is performed and it is these "spaces" which offer the containers/boundaries AS MODELS for navigating the labyrinths of preconceived formal schooling. This focus on honouring what has come before is recognizing a "historicizing literacy" as another salient characteristic of this "mediating space". Subject matters that matter emerge within pre-existing traditions that acknowledge the "textured lives" of our youth. These salient characteristics are moving beyond the traditional conceptualizations of literacy to focus on "experiences" of literacy as encounters with the "subject matter". [that matter to the subjects/youth. Winn describes these activities as forging collective "third spaces" [page 59] which CULTIVATE literate identities emerging within traditions of being. These third spaces provide rich historical contexts that are necessary in Winn's retrospective to accomplish boundary shattering within formal schooling. To preserve literate historical communities [as locations of shared identity] it was necessary to "stage" literate "events" viewed by their participants as a "mission" that presented subject matter that matters. Winn is describing the manifestation of a "legacy" of literacy within a tradition for people of African descent which "inspires" the participants. Winn chose to begin her retrospective in the 1940's leading up to present day literacy movements as presentations of subject matter that matters AS LEGACY. In the exchanging of written and "spoken" words [as sayings] community institutions are formed that extending the traditons that exist as "living tradition" and not merely history as the past. THIS is a diacritical understanding, of tradition as continuing to be 'living' within current community as democratic engagement. Poppa John and Mamma C participated passionately and intimately within this particular "tradition" Was it them as agentic individuals that was "exceptional" or was it the subject matter that matters that was "exceptional"? I propose that what is exceptional is to be able to stage events that keeps this tradition "alive". To return to Mike's question, it seems that the "salient" characteristics is to view language and word as expressions of a p articularsubject matter that matters [is meaningful]. Gadamer would ask "who is doing the "speaking"? and he would answer it is the subject matter that "speaks" diacritically through encountering "traditions" that risk our prejudices. I suggest that it is possible to understand Winn's retrospective as this type of a quest to honour the tradition/subject matter that speaks through us. In this speaking "through" the tradition boundaries are shattered and we can possibly approach the future as continuing to live the truth of our tradition as empowering the subject matter that matters. I am aware that my focusing on the term "tradition" will generate a response and am fully aware of the "shadow side" of tradition as "static" or "systematic" but I am suggesting there is another way to understand tradition as expressed in Winn's retrospective reflections on what she has come to value as developing within a social situation as an intimate third space of mediation. Larry On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 7:53 PM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > Barriers do arise in schools. Many students live behind walls, both > real and imagined, dictated by the needs that survival necessitates. > > Words and meaning have power, and this makes learning a political act. > School should never be *done* to students rather students should*do* > their learning on to the world. > > I truly believe we have education backwards. We strive for college and > career readiness hoping to grow GDP with a flow of technical workers > as means for civic contribution. Instead we should worry first about > community and civic readiness. Then, and only then, will college and > career follow for those who have been robbed of their agency and culture. > > When students leave schools wanting to make communities a better place > they engage in literacy practices steeped in academic discourse. When > kids see how they can "get theres" by being an agent in the world many > realize life requires learning beyond high school. > > Community, as a thread, permeates Maisha Winn's retrospective on her > research. In Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth Across Time > and Space Winn > described a series of ethnographic studies that draw heavily on the > socio-cultural work of Heath and the literacy as action found in the > work of Cole, Gutierrez, Lunsford, Smagorinsky, Street, and many > more. Winn first described out of school spaces for learning and then > either found similar spaces or applied these lessons to more formal learning spaces. > African Diaspora Participatory Literacy Communities > > Winn describes African Diaspora Participatory Literacy Communities to > encapsulate the poet cafes and bookstores she studies: > > ADPLCs, as literacy or literary-centered events outside of school and > work communities that combined oral, aural, and written traditions > through an exchange of words, sounds, and movements that privileged a > Black aesthetic > > She then describe many of the tenants of learning found in > socio-cultural views of learning. Lately, and I think too often > removed (or maybe all inclusiveO from their theoretical base, this > framework has been labeled connected learning > . It is interesting to see Winn draw on > many of the same principles. > > Winn's description of learning matches Gee's adaptation of Community > into Affinity Spaces. > > Like other open mics, POSA, is an invitation to both novice and > seasoned poets to share their writing in a space that promotes > reading, writing, thinking, and activism, as well as collabo- ration > among elders and children. V.S. Chochezi and Staajabu, the mother > daughter poetry duo also known as Straight Out Scribes (SOS), begin > with saying "hello," in several languages punctuated with a decidedly urbanized "What's up!" > > She draws Gutierrez's ( 2008 ): > > concept of "sociocritical literacy"-that is a "historicizing literacy" > that privileges the lived experiences and legacies of > participants-provided the much needed space to analyze the activities > of both classes against the backdrop of a history of Black poets and writers. > > This notion of learning as a sense of community around a shared > purpose was traced back to The Black Arts Movement which > > unapologetically sought to incorporate a Black aesthetic into visual > and performing arts along side the Black Power Movement, which > advocated self-determination and self-definition among Black Americans > > What is interesting is this Black aesthetic, as of all American > History greatly influences our cultures. You see this in the rise of > hip hop culture. I actually stumbled into a similar space for learning > in Cambridge, MA. > > > What made the ADPLC a space where learning thrived was community and a > shared purpose. > Poppa Joe and Mamma C > > Winn then described a few formal learning places that drew from the > same history and values of the out of school places. Once again > community came first. > > When describing one classroom Winn wrote: > > These student poets used the Power Writing circle to build community > while reading original compositions aloud in an open mic format, much > like the venues I observed in Northern California, and engaging in > giving and receiving feedback. In the context of these literacy > communities, Poppa Joe and his guest teachers taught by modeling. > > Culturally responsive classrooms were also central to the Winn's thesis. > Yet she noted these were often hardest for classrooms. Winn and Latrise P. > Johnson explored culturally relevant pedagogy. They describe how it > means much more then reading a book with a black kid on the cover.In > fact Winn notes that the most successful spaces drew on student lives: > > used the material of students' lived experiences, such as > disproportionate contact with law enforcement and police brutality, as > resources for rich dialogue and their struggle to translate the > dialogue into writing > > As Peter Samgorinsky pointed out recently on the XMCA listserv this > work reflects recent scholarship by David Kirkland > who detailed the many powerful > ways black youth challenge dominant narratives. > > Winn points out that it is the arts that are the dominant path to > having students write their own story on to the world. She noted: > > I also learned how theater arts builds community and supports > marginalized youth as they build and sustain literate identities. > > Learning from Winn > > Literacy instruction is identity work. It is political. The question > was posed on the XMCA listserv about recreating these experiences in > the classroom. > > Anna Aguilar noted a memory of a teacher creating a Zine. Smagorinsky > stressed the role of coaches. I couldn't agree more. We need to > realign schools so that students are empowered by designing the > community. I was intrigued by this idea in the listserv: > > For Ilyenkov, language is not the ideal, but its 'objectified being', > its material form. The ideal does not exist in language for Ilyenkov, > or in other material phenomena, but in forms of human activity. > > In many ways writing instruction must be attached to a human activity. > Technically it already is an activity but it is one students are > forced into and motivated by exploring new identities in memes or > engaging in coaching relationships such as in Soccer. > > In fact Michael Cole posed these questions after reading Winn's work: > > [How do we] better understand how the special teachers, those who were > involved in local community literacy practices/values/histories, > managed to include them in their public high school classrooms with > all of the rules, regulations, standardized testing, etc. that is > involved. > > Does such boundary shattering require exceptional people? > or perhaps > > What are the boundaries to such boundary shattering?? > > Community Matters > > These efforts do take exceptional people. They also require us to > challenge the boundaries, such as limited views of literacy. > > Our fascination with accountability reform is at the heart of ripping > away what Winn values. Kirkland, as Peter points out, notes how > limited assessments of what counts help to dissuade youth as school is > done to the them. > > Winn wants learning done onto the world. As Michael Glassman (again on > the XMCA listerv) noted Papa Joe and Mamma C did more than teach language arts. > We must recognize community where ever it exists. > < > http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2015/how-we-misrepresent-the- > school-security-guard > > > > Another barrier arose around accountability based reform and that is > the removal of the arts from schools. Content rich instruction and > arts that allow students to do the identity work necessary to be civic > and community ready. > > Can these exceptional teachers exist. Yes. Are they rare. Yes, that is > the definition of exceptional. Are they only found in school? No. > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 5:51 PM Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > Well, ed schools are pretty disputatious places, so I'd never say > > that there's an orthodoxy to follow. I'd agree with your situated > > perspective, even as the world of ed psych still appears to operate between the ears. > > There are teachers who import all sorts of interesting possibilities > > into their classrooms, even with all the oppressive testing and > > centralized curricula that assume that all kids' minds have the same > > architecture > (that > > might be the wrong word, since it might come across as static--other > terms > > welcome). > > > > Hoping for others to weigh in. p > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 5:28 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of > > Youth across Time and Space > > > > Peter- > > > > At first I didn't get at all what the connection between the > > discussion > of > > Ilyenkov and Maisha's work, but I think its a great idea to discuss > > the question you pose. Is "literacy" idealized differently in the > > two communities of practice (school and outside-school)? I have > > difficulty keeping straight with ideas such as "subjective image of > > reality" but > there > > seems to be little doubt that there are different values being > > embodied > in > > standard school literacy practices and the multi-modal, > multi-generational > > practices in the sites that Maisha describes. Seems like this could > > be a useful lens for addressing my question about > how.when.under-what-conditions > > the practices and associated values of an evening get together at a > > community center can be at least part of a high school educational > > curriculum. > > > > Only sometimes under special conditions seems to be the answer. Is > > that answer accepted in Ed schools these days? > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Peter Smagorinsky > wrote: > > > > > OK, I hit send accidentally. To continue: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Peter Smagorinsky > > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 4:02 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate > > > Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space > > > > > > I'm going to do some exploratory thinking here, so please pardon > > > the half-baked nature of what follows (half-baked is a long-time > > > value on xmca in its embrace of thoughts in emergent process). > > > > > > Winn's article has gotten little traction as a discussion topic, > > > so I'll combine it with something that's gotten even less > > > attention, an article that someone (Annalisa, I think) sent awhile > > > back and that I'm re-attaching here. > > > > > > I'm focusing on the early section about Ilyenkov's notion of the > > > ideal, which I can't say I completely grasp. So please bear with > > > me as I grope my way through this effort to link the two articles. > > > I'll paste in the section of the attachment that I see as > > > potentially, if I'm getting this right, helpful in understanding Winn's essay: > > > > > > Although there is a considerable literature in the West that > > > focuses on the r?le of language in the social production of > > > consciousness, what sets Ilyenkov apart is his distinction between > > > language and the ideal. For Ilyenkov, language is not the ideal, > > > but its 'objectified > > > being',27 its material form. he ideal does not exist in language > > > for Ilyenkov, or in other material phenomena, but in forms of > > > human activity. His entry on the ideal in the 1962 > > > encyclop?dia-article defines it as 'the subjective image of > > > objective reality, i.e. a reflection of the external world in > > > forms of human activity, in forms of its consciousness and > > > will'.28 One can think of the ideal as the significance that > > > matter assumes in the process of its transformation by human > > > activity. In other words, it is only in-and-through human activity > > > that matter takes on the character of an object with > > significance. > > > To be clear, Ilyenkov was not referring only to parts of the > > > material world that individuals directly transform, but to all > > > matter that society comes 'in contact' > > > with. Idealisation is, for > > > him, a social phenomenon. In the same encyclop?dia-entry, he wrote: > > > An ideal image, say of bread, may arise in the imagination of a > > > hungry man or of a baker. In the head of a satiated man occupied > > > with building a house, ideal bread does not arise. But if we take > > > society as a whole, ideal bread and ideal houses are always in > > > existence, as well as any ideal object with which humanity is > > > concerned in the process of production and reproduction of its real, material life. > > > his > > > includes the ideal sky, as an object of astronomy, as a 'natural > > > calendar', a clock, and compass. In consequence of that, all of > > > nature is idealised in humanity and not just that part which it > > > immediately produces or reproduces or consumes in a practical > > > way.29 > > > >From this perspective, all matter appears in individual > > > >consciousness > > > already transformed > > > and idealised by the activity of previous generations, and this > > > ideal informs the individual's activity in the present. > > > > > > OK, back to me. What I'm wondering is this: Is "literacy" > > > idealized differently in the two communities of practice (school > > > and > > outside-school)? > > > In school, at least formally, literacy is idealized as the "proper" > > > use of language in textual production and composition, with only > > > the most formal versions acceptable as evidence of literate performance. > > > Adherence to formal rules is the only way to meet the scholastic > > > ideal. At the same time, as soon as kids leave class and go into > > > the hall, other ideals become available, at least for 5 minutes of > > > passing > > time. > > > > > > Outside school, the whole world of literacy possibilities become > > > available, with many ideals to guide production. The discourse > > > genres that govern spoken word performances for the communities of > > > practice that Winn focuses on are one possibility, but there are > > > countless possibilities that suit different trajectories. > > > > > > Well, hope that makes some sense. I'm entirely open to the > > > possibility that I've misunderstood Ilyenkov in seeking a way to > > > understand him via Winn. As we say in the South: What do y'all > > > think? p > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. > Waddington > > > > > From glassman.13@osu.edu Tue Mar 31 09:50:25 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 16:50:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space In-Reply-To: References: <1427664212985.63755@unm.edu> , <1427817400613.51136@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBE507@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BBE94C@CIO-KRC-D1MBX05.osuad.osu.edu> Hi Peter, Then I guess we have different experiences. I'm not saying you can't convince somebody of the value theoretically, as a matter of fact it is relatively easy. The difficulty is creating an environment where somebody feels comfortable and read to do it in practice. Let me give a really bad illustration. I used to play basketball, not very good. One thing I was fairly good at was setting picks. The people I set picks from would tell me "roll to the basket." The pick and roll is by far the most successful play in basketball on all levels. I would say, "Yeah, yeah I'm going to do that." But the truth is I will still set the pick and just stand there. I understood it theoretically. It was obvious. I couldn't do it in practice. Of course in classrooms the stakes are much, much, much higher in so many ways. But talking to the student I mentioned in the last message it is not only that he would be doing something that would be criticized but he kept finding himself falling back into old patterns. My experience in schools of education, possibly very different from yours, is people understanding things theoretically but it is much harder to put them into practice. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 12:39 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space Michael, that's not my experience. I think that many colleges of education persuade their preservice teachers of the benefits of teaching in constructivist traditions. It's just hard to put into practice in schools where other approaches have greater value, and where the consequences of the evaluation--getting a job--are higher. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 12:17 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space Annalisa, I agree with this completely, "I didn't ever think that the reason for doing poetry slams was to break down walls in schools, but to raise community awareness and stimulate agency in young people, both which create joyful belonging in a time of their lives when joyful belonging is not present in their educational experiences. This in addition to encouraging them to participate in a river-like tradition of writing and orality among the African diaspora, a tradition which is not a dead thing, but something quite, quite alive." But then I think Mike poignant and urgent question moves to the forefront, how do you get teachers to then bring this joyful experience into the literacy processes, the interlocutors who we invest with this responsibility - without relying on very specialized personalities that seem to be part of Poppa Joe's and Momma C's personality, and even they seemed to need to establish a second environment where this literacy is acceptable or at least not challenged. I just had a long talk with a student. We were talking about something as simple as moving away from a rubric, and yet as much as he has questioned the ideas of formalized education, he is having trouble thinking outside of what he has been taught is good education. A second compelling question asked is can we, I guess use educational schools to advance this idea of a joyful literacy deeply based in traditions and participation in culture. But many of the students in schools of education are there because they were successful in formalized education practices. It is really hard to convince somebody in practice if not in theory there might be another way, even if the way that is being critiqued is failing. To paraphrase Upton Sinclair, It is very hard to convince and educator of one approach when their expertise in education has been developed and is dependent on another approach. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 11:57 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space Hello Larry and esteemed others, I'm wondering if my posts are getting out there? I had offered that there was the possibility of the energetic rewards that come with doing an outside-school, in-the-bookstore activity for the teachers Poppa John and Mamma C? I was also unsure of the idea of shattering of boundaries? Is that a fair representation that boundaries are shattered? Can't they just be transforming? Shattering sounds so violent and aggressive. Also, Maisha uses the word "trajectories" which suggests to me jumping over boundaries, with a movement upwards, boundaries that (normally) confine or constrain, unless we are to interpret this adjective as a missile going through a wall. I didn't ever think that the reason for doing poetry slams was to break down walls in schools, but to raise community awareness and stimulate agency in young people, both which create joyful belonging in a time of their lives when joyful belonging is not present in their educational experiences. This in addition to encouraging them to participate in a river-like tradition of writing and orality among the African diaspora, a tradition which is not a dead thing, but something quite, quite alive. Joyful belonging is a part of literacy I think, why do we read anything, if not for that? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Larry Purss Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 12:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space Greg McVerry, I share your wanting to explore what makes these teachers exceptional. You repeated Mike's question and I will repeat it again as we need to explore what "type" or "kind" of situation develops these exceptional teachers [in and out of school. Greg wrote, In fact Michael Cole posed these questions after reading Winn's work: [How do we] better understand how the special teachers, those who were involved in local community literacy practices/values/histories, managed to include them in their public high school classrooms with all of the rules, regulations, standardized testing, etc. that is involved. Does such boundary shattering require exceptional people? or perhaps What are the boundaries to such boundary shattering?? So the question becomes do we need exceptional people [with agentic will and purpose] that enables the shattering of "boundaries" or do we need social "situations" that have a certain definition/boundary that "contains" the energy required to shatter or break through preconceived boundaries. Another way to discuss "social situations" is to use the concept of "worlds" that express a "subject matter" that matters. Winn uses the metaphor of "spaces" when she asks "In what spaces do people of African descent engage in literate practices such as reading, writing, and speaking, beyond school settings?" Now I ask if it is "necessary" that these alternative "spaces" of "experiential" learning may be "necessary" AS MODELS in order for possible "boundary shattering" in schools. In other words, there must be alternative "subject matter that matters" that may be necessary before boundary shattering of preconceived notions of "formal schooling" becomes possible. This is a notion of "dialectical" moving reciprocally from the known to unknown AND from the unknown to the known. The "known" in this retrospective was honouring "tradition" and expressing loyalty to "tradition". Winn asks what are the "salient" characteristics of these literacy communities that honoured tradition? The most salient characteristic is that these literacy communities ARE MEDIATING spaces in which tradition "speaks" and is performed and it is these "spaces" which offer the containers/boundaries AS MODELS for navigating the labyrinths of preconceived formal schooling. This focus on honouring what has come before is recognizing a "historicizing literacy" as another salient characteristic of this "mediating space". Subject matters that matter emerge within pre-existing traditions that acknowledge the "textured lives" of our youth. These salient characteristics are moving beyond the traditional conceptualizations of literacy to focus on "experiences" of literacy as encounters with the "subject matter". [that matter to the subjects/youth. Winn describes these activities as forging collective "third spaces" [page 59] which CULTIVATE literate identities emerging within traditions of being. These third spaces provide rich historical contexts that are necessary in Winn's retrospective to accomplish boundary shattering within formal schooling. To preserve literate historical communities [as locations of shared identity] it was necessary to "stage" literate "events" viewed by their participants as a "mission" that presented subject matter that matters. Winn is describing the manifestation of a "legacy" of literacy within a tradition for people of African descent which "inspires" the participants. Winn chose to begin her retrospective in the 1940's leading up to present day literacy movements as presentations of subject matter that matters AS LEGACY. In the exchanging of written and "spoken" words [as sayings] community institutions are formed that extending the traditons that exist as "living tradition" and not merely history as the past. THIS is a diacritical understanding, of tradition as continuing to be 'living' within current community as democratic engagement. Poppa John and Mamma C participated passionately and intimately within this particular "tradition" Was it them as agentic individuals that was "exceptional" or was it the subject matter that matters that was "exceptional"? I propose that what is exceptional is to be able to stage events that keeps this tradition "alive". To return to Mike's question, it seems that the "salient" characteristics is to view language and word as expressions of a p articularsubject matter that matters [is meaningful]. Gadamer would ask "who is doing the "speaking"? and he would answer it is the subject matter that "speaks" diacritically through encountering "traditions" that risk our prejudices. I suggest that it is possible to understand Winn's retrospective as this type of a quest to honour the tradition/subject matter that speaks through us. In this speaking "through" the tradition boundaries are shattered and we can possibly approach the future as continuing to live the truth of our tradition as empowering the subject matter that matters. I am aware that my focusing on the term "tradition" will generate a response and am fully aware of the "shadow side" of tradition as "static" or "systematic" but I am suggesting there is another way to understand tradition as expressed in Winn's retrospective reflections on what she has come to value as developing within a social situation as an intimate third space of mediation. Larry On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 7:53 PM, Greg Mcverry wrote: > Barriers do arise in schools. Many students live behind walls, both > real and imagined, dictated by the needs that survival necessitates. > > Words and meaning have power, and this makes learning a political act. > School should never be *done* to students rather students should*do* > their learning on to the world. > > I truly believe we have education backwards. We strive for college and > career readiness hoping to grow GDP with a flow of technical workers > as means for civic contribution. Instead we should worry first about > community and civic readiness. Then, and only then, will college and > career follow for those who have been robbed of their agency and culture. > > When students leave schools wanting to make communities a better place > they engage in literacy practices steeped in academic discourse. When > kids see how they can "get theres" by being an agent in the world many > realize life requires learning beyond high school. > > Community, as a thread, permeates Maisha Winn's retrospective on her > research. In Exploring the Literate Trajectories of Youth Across Time > and Space Winn > described a series of ethnographic studies that draw heavily on the > socio-cultural work of Heath and the literacy as action found in the > work of Cole, Gutierrez, Lunsford, Smagorinsky, Street, and many > more. Winn first described out of school spaces for learning and then > either found similar spaces or applied these lessons to more formal learning spaces. > African Diaspora Participatory Literacy Communities > > Winn describes African Diaspora Participatory Literacy Communities to > encapsulate the poet cafes and bookstores she studies: > > ADPLCs, as literacy or literary-centered events outside of school and > work communities that combined oral, aural, and written traditions > through an exchange of words, sounds, and movements that privileged a > Black aesthetic > > She then describe many of the tenants of learning found in > socio-cultural views of learning. Lately, and I think too often > removed (or maybe all inclusiveO from their theoretical base, this > framework has been labeled connected learning > . It is interesting to see Winn draw on > many of the same principles. > > Winn's description of learning matches Gee's adaptation of Community > into Affinity Spaces. > > Like other open mics, POSA, is an invitation to both novice and > seasoned poets to share their writing in a space that promotes > reading, writing, thinking, and activism, as well as collabo- ration > among elders and children. V.S. Chochezi and Staajabu, the mother > daughter poetry duo also known as Straight Out Scribes (SOS), begin > with saying "hello," in several languages punctuated with a decidedly urbanized "What's up!" > > She draws Gutierrez's ( 2008 ): > > concept of "sociocritical literacy"-that is a "historicizing literacy" > that privileges the lived experiences and legacies of > participants-provided the much needed space to analyze the activities > of both classes against the backdrop of a history of Black poets and writers. > > This notion of learning as a sense of community around a shared > purpose was traced back to The Black Arts Movement which > > unapologetically sought to incorporate a Black aesthetic into visual > and performing arts along side the Black Power Movement, which > advocated self-determination and self-definition among Black Americans > > What is interesting is this Black aesthetic, as of all American > History greatly influences our cultures. You see this in the rise of > hip hop culture. I actually stumbled into a similar space for learning > in Cambridge, MA. > > > What made the ADPLC a space where learning thrived was community and a > shared purpose. > Poppa Joe and Mamma C > > Winn then described a few formal learning places that drew from the > same history and values of the out of school places. Once again > community came first. > > When describing one classroom Winn wrote: > > These student poets used the Power Writing circle to build community > while reading original compositions aloud in an open mic format, much > like the venues I observed in Northern California, and engaging in > giving and receiving feedback. In the context of these literacy > communities, Poppa Joe and his guest teachers taught by modeling. > > Culturally responsive classrooms were also central to the Winn's thesis. > Yet she noted these were often hardest for classrooms. Winn and Latrise P. > Johnson explored culturally relevant pedagogy. They describe how it > means much more then reading a book with a black kid on the cover.In > fact Winn notes that the most successful spaces drew on student lives: > > used the material of students' lived experiences, such as > disproportionate contact with law enforcement and police brutality, as > resources for rich dialogue and their struggle to translate the > dialogue into writing > > As Peter Samgorinsky pointed out recently on the XMCA listserv this > work reflects recent scholarship by David Kirkland > who detailed the many powerful > ways black youth challenge dominant narratives. > > Winn points out that it is the arts that are the dominant path to > having students write their own story on to the world. She noted: > > I also learned how theater arts builds community and supports > marginalized youth as they build and sustain literate identities. > > Learning from Winn > > Literacy instruction is identity work. It is political. The question > was posed on the XMCA listserv about recreating these experiences in > the classroom. > > Anna Aguilar noted a memory of a teacher creating a Zine. Smagorinsky > stressed the role of coaches. I couldn't agree more. We need to > realign schools so that students are empowered by designing the > community. I was intrigued by this idea in the listserv: > > For Ilyenkov, language is not the ideal, but its 'objectified being', > its material form. The ideal does not exist in language for Ilyenkov, > or in other material phenomena, but in forms of human activity. > > In many ways writing instruction must be attached to a human activity. > Technically it already is an activity but it is one students are > forced into and motivated by exploring new identities in memes or > engaging in coaching relationships such as in Soccer. > > In fact Michael Cole posed these questions after reading Winn's work: > > [How do we] better understand how the special teachers, those who were > involved in local community literacy practices/values/histories, > managed to include them in their public high school classrooms with > all of the rules, regulations, standardized testing, etc. that is > involved. > > Does such boundary shattering require exceptional people? > or perhaps > > What are the boundaries to such boundary shattering?? > > Community Matters > > These efforts do take exceptional people. They also require us to > challenge the boundaries, such as limited views of literacy. > > Our fascination with accountability reform is at the heart of ripping > away what Winn values. Kirkland, as Peter points out, notes how > limited assessments of what counts help to dissuade youth as school is > done to the them. > > Winn wants learning done onto the world. As Michael Glassman (again on > the XMCA listerv) noted Papa Joe and Mamma C did more than teach language arts. > We must recognize community where ever it exists. > < > http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2015/how-we-misrepresent-the- > school-security-guard > > > > Another barrier arose around accountability based reform and that is > the removal of the arts from schools. Content rich instruction and > arts that allow students to do the identity work necessary to be civic > and community ready. > > Can these exceptional teachers exist. Yes. Are they rare. Yes, that is > the definition of exceptional. Are they only found in school? No. > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 5:51 PM Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > Well, ed schools are pretty disputatious places, so I'd never say > > that there's an orthodoxy to follow. I'd agree with your situated > > perspective, even as the world of ed psych still appears to operate between the ears. > > There are teachers who import all sorts of interesting possibilities > > into their classrooms, even with all the oppressive testing and > > centralized curricula that assume that all kids' minds have the same > > architecture > (that > > might be the wrong word, since it might come across as static--other > terms > > welcome). > > > > Hoping for others to weigh in. p > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 5:28 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate Trajectories of > > Youth across Time and Space > > > > Peter- > > > > At first I didn't get at all what the connection between the > > discussion > of > > Ilyenkov and Maisha's work, but I think its a great idea to discuss > > the question you pose. Is "literacy" idealized differently in the > > two communities of practice (school and outside-school)? I have > > difficulty keeping straight with ideas such as "subjective image of > > reality" but > there > > seems to be little doubt that there are different values being > > embodied > in > > standard school literacy practices and the multi-modal, > multi-generational > > practices in the sites that Maisha describes. Seems like this could > > be a useful lens for addressing my question about > how.when.under-what-conditions > > the practices and associated values of an evening get together at a > > community center can be at least part of a high school educational > > curriculum. > > > > Only sometimes under special conditions seems to be the answer. Is > > that answer accepted in Ed schools these days? > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Peter Smagorinsky > wrote: > > > > > OK, I hit send accidentally. To continue: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Peter Smagorinsky > > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 4:02 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Winn's Exploring the Literate > > > Trajectories of Youth across Time and Space > > > > > > I'm going to do some exploratory thinking here, so please pardon > > > the half-baked nature of what follows (half-baked is a long-time > > > value on xmca in its embrace of thoughts in emergent process). > > > > > > Winn's article has gotten little traction as a discussion topic, > > > so I'll combine it with something that's gotten even less > > > attention, an article that someone (Annalisa, I think) sent awhile > > > back and that I'm re-attaching here. > > > > > > I'm focusing on the early section about Ilyenkov's notion of the > > > ideal, which I can't say I completely grasp. So please bear with > > > me as I grope my way through this effort to link the two articles. > > > I'll paste in the section of the attachment that I see as > > > potentially, if I'm getting this right, helpful in understanding Winn's essay: > > > > > > Although there is a considerable literature in the West that > > > focuses on the r?le of language in the social production of > > > consciousness, what sets Ilyenkov apart is his distinction between > > > language and the ideal. For Ilyenkov, language is not the ideal, > > > but its 'objectified > > > being',27 its material form. he ideal does not exist in language > > > for Ilyenkov, or in other material phenomena, but in forms of > > > human activity. His entry on the ideal in the 1962 > > > encyclop?dia-article defines it as 'the subjective image of > > > objective reality, i.e. a reflection of the external world in > > > forms of human activity, in forms of its consciousness and > > > will'.28 One can think of the ideal as the significance that > > > matter assumes in the process of its transformation by human > > > activity. In other words, it is only in-and-through human activity > > > that matter takes on the character of an object with > > significance. > > > To be clear, Ilyenkov was not referring only to parts of the > > > material world that individuals directly transform, but to all > > > matter that society comes 'in contact' > > > with. Idealisation is, for > > > him, a social phenomenon. In the same encyclop?dia-entry, he wrote: > > > An ideal image, say of bread, may arise in the imagination of a > > > hungry man or of a baker. In the head of a satiated man occupied > > > with building a house, ideal bread does not arise. But if we take > > > society as a whole, ideal bread and ideal houses are always in > > > existence, as well as any ideal object with which humanity is > > > concerned in the process of production and reproduction of its real, material life. > > > his > > > includes the ideal sky, as an object of astronomy, as a 'natural > > > calendar', a clock, and compass. In consequence of that, all of > > > nature is idealised in humanity and not just that part which it > > > immediately produces or reproduces or consumes in a practical > > > way.29 > > > >From this perspective, all matter appears in individual > > > >consciousness > > > already transformed > > > and idealised by the activity of previous generations, and this > > > ideal informs the individual's activity in the present. > > > > > > OK, back to me. What I'm wondering is this: Is "literacy" > > > idealized differently in the two communities of practice (school > > > and > > outside-school)? > > > In school, at least formally, literacy is idealized as the "proper" > > > use of language in textual production and composition, with only > > > the most formal versions acceptable as evidence of literate performance. > > > Adherence to formal rules is the only way to meet the scholastic > > > ideal. At the same time, as soon as kids leave class and go into > > > the hall, other ideals become available, at least for 5 minutes of > > > passing > > time. > > > > > > Outside school, the whole world of literacy possibilities become > > > available, with many ideals to guide production. The discourse > > > genres that govern spoken word performances for the communities of > > > practice that Winn focuses on are one possibility, but there are > > > countless possibilities that suit different trajectories. > > > > > > Well, hope that makes some sense. I'm entirely open to the > > > possibility that I've misunderstood Ilyenkov in seeking a way to > > > understand him via Winn. As we say in the South: What do y'all > > > think? p > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "Each new level of development is a new relevant context." C.H. > Waddington > > > > >