[Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
Beth Ferholt
bferholt@gmail.com
Fri Jul 17 21:04:55 PDT 2015
oops -- did not mean to use the term as a verb, above -- in any case the
reason we use film to discuss across cultures could be because it is a
medium of gaps (the still pictures appear to move because of the gaps -- I
am referring to Sobchack) -- Beth
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 11:55 PM, Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, that is very helpful, thank you!
> I do not think it is ever without another, and thought of this when I read
> your recent paper.
> You can always perezhivanie with the others in yourself, so long as you
> attach the other to something, even to a "past" or "future" self. Virginia
> Woolf is very good at showing this. Paley's children in her class appear
> to be like Buber, having life stand still here with a cat or even a tree.
> Beth
>
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 11:44 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>
>> I couldn't tell you that, Beth.
>> On Mike's suggestion, you will recall, the discussion of perezhivanie was
>> progressed, avoiding cross-cultural difficulties, by a discussion of films!
>> There is a movie called "An Education," and there is a passage in this
>> movie where the young heroine has this experience, following the revelation
>> of how she has been deceived and exploited. It is the moment of
>> self-transformation, but that transformation is extended perhaps over a
>> period of 24 hours, in silence, in that kind of state. The first movie that
>> was discussed was "Brief Encounter" and here that moment of time standing
>> still comes at the end of the movie when the heroine reflects on an
>> exciting affair and her life with her nice boring husband and sees that her
>> life is best just as it is and lets go of her romanticism. In my own life,
>> I recall several such time-standing-still moments of transformation. But in
>> none of these cases was there a therapist involved. It is an open question
>> for me, if you want to give a different name ("meta-perezhivanie") to that
>> perezhivanie where the person is able to reflect upon their own experience
>> without the aid of another.
>>
>> Andy
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>> On 18/07/2015 1:25 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote:
>>
>>> Which stage according to Vasilyuk's stages is the standing still?
>>> Redemption or the smack middle of repentance, when you can see both
>>> directions at once? Beth
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> According to Mikhail Munipov (whom you have met on
>>> FaceBook, Beth) that process of "life standing still"
>>> is characteristic of the cathartic moment of a
>>> perezhivanie.
>>> And David, if I associate catharsis with perezhivanie
>>> I am more referring to its meaning in Greek drama, not
>>> 19th century medicine or Freudian psychoanalysis, all
>>> of these being derivatives of the original Greek, I think,
>>>
>>> Andy
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>> <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>> On 18/07/2015 1:03 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, this really makes sense! So it is the doing
>>> that is the practical energy. SO Marx was writing
>>> about a method of perezhivanie?
>>>
>>> I may be conflating things but I am trying to
>>> piece together several pieces (like how in a big
>>> city you know a whole neighborhood as a world unto
>>> itself, and then you find out it is in the same
>>> area as another neighborhood that you know well --
>>> but you did not know they were connected -- ).
>>>
>>> Actually that process of piecing together across
>>> the gaps is also related to what we are talking
>>> about. Of course. When you age in a city you also
>>> have the depth of the memories in layers at a
>>> given place, and this stringing together across
>>> time and place is what Virginia Woolf calls life:
>>> moments in which "life stands still her" strung
>>> together like a strand of pearls = with gaps
>>> between them.
>>>
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 10:42 PM, Andy Blunden
>>> <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Like you, Beth, I have found this xmca thread
>>> particularly exciting!
>>> There is one thing I'd like to add, which is
>>> implicit
>>> in Mike's quote from Marx:
>>>
>>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/comm.htm#art
>>> which is that Dewey holds an experience to be both
>>> suffering and *doing* [Tatigkeit in German].
>>> The doing means that an experience (to be an
>>> experience, and stand out from the background of
>>> experience, have significance and form a whole)
>>> entails wilfully changing the world, even if that
>>> changing is trivial, such as changing other
>>> people's
>>> attitudes to you or most trivially changing
>>> how you
>>> henceforth interact with a certain kind of
>>> situation,
>>> person or whatever. But doing is doing, it is
>>> not just
>>> going through the motions or habit. And that
>>> is why
>>> experiences in this sense are so important to the
>>> development of the personality and the world,
>>>
>>> Andy
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>> <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>> <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 18/07/2015 4:40 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote:
>>>
>>> This chain of ideas is the closest I have ever
>>> felt to what interests me
>>> most. It covers all the interests that
>>> brought me
>>> first to play and then
>>> to the playworlds and then to
>>> perezhivanie. Before I went to LCHC I was a
>>> preschool teacher and this is a profession
>>> that I
>>> think can be described as
>>> being, in its first part, responsible for
>>> reflecting upon the 'having an
>>> experience' that is happening all around
>>> you every
>>> day (time is so
>>> condensed for young children so it is
>>> happening
>>> all the time) so that you
>>> can support the self-creation beings who
>>> are able
>>> to "have an experience''?
>>>
>>> Like with Greg's students, as a preschool
>>> teacher
>>> you find that what is
>>> most important is to describe what is
>>> happening in
>>> a way that is true to
>>> the children's experiences. Vivian Paley
>>> shows us
>>> how to do this. If you
>>> don;t do this you find dealing with the
>>> Golem who
>>> has had the words that
>>> give it life removed from its mouth: you
>>> just have
>>> dirt, nothing even
>>> remotely related to the Golem, not even
>>> weight.
>>>
>>> I think it is the teacher/artists who can
>>> find for
>>> us those properties that
>>> will characterize the experience as a
>>> whole. What
>>> Monica named 'preschool
>>> didactics from within' is a process of working
>>> with these people in
>>> research. This sounds like 5D.
>>>
>>> Andy, Vygotsky is talking about the the two
>>> purposes of art criticism. One
>>> is entirely in the domain of social life,
>>> he says,
>>> guiding what art creates
>>> in its audience in useful directions. The
>>> other
>>> is to 'conserve the effect
>>> of art as art'. He says we know this is
>>> needed,
>>> because art is a unity,
>>> and without the whole criticism is not
>>> related to
>>> art -- he calls what we
>>> have left, without the unity, a wound. But
>>> criticism of art treats art as
>>> a parliamentary speech -- often -- he
>>> says. Vygtosky shows how to avoid
>>> this in the chapter on Bunin's short story.
>>>
>>> As a preschool teacher you know that art
>>> is life
>>> because if you forget this
>>> then you have unhappy children and your job is
>>> impossible, or worse. As an
>>> researcher, every time you hit something
>>> hard you
>>> can revert to the first
>>> purpose of art/life criticism, or anyhow
>>> to the
>>> part that does not conserve
>>> the effect, without any consequences on your
>>> livelihood. If we could have
>>> a system of science that makes it
>>> impossible to
>>> leave the hardest questions
>>> to the first purpose of criticism, then we
>>> could
>>> have so many people
>>> working on these hardest questions in a
>>> meaningful
>>> way, but I do not know
>>> how to do this even in my own work.
>>>
>>> Except one way is to place the desires of the
>>> teachers and children before
>>> your own. This is sort of a method of love or
>>> empathy. Kiyo suggested The
>>> Method of Hope by Miyazaki (no relation I
>>> think)
>>> and this is related, also
>>> Edith Turner's work where she sees the reality
>>> that the people she is
>>> studying see.
>>>
>>> Maybe it is a method of perezhivanie.
>>>
>>> Beth
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Alfredo
>>> Jornet
>>> Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
>>> <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
>>> <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
>>> <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Mike, could you elaborate on that?
>>>
>>> Alfredo
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From:
>>> xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=
>>> iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> <xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=
>>> iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>>> on
>>> behalf of
>>> mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu> <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>>>
>>> Sent: 17 July 2015 19:40
>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
>>>
>>> Alfredo--
>>>
>>> a "method of organization" seems close
>>> to a
>>> synonym for design.
>>>
>>> mike
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Alfredo
>>> Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
>>> <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
>>> <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
>>>
>>> <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I like very much how Greg brings in a
>>> methodological issue here with his
>>> mention about ethnography and his
>>> reading
>>> of "fidelity"; that the latter
>>>
>>> is
>>>
>>> not about representing exactly,
>>> but about
>>> describing events in terms of
>>> consequences for the participants,
>>> which
>>> they display for each other in
>>> their actual practice.
>>>
>>> This methodological aspect makes
>>> me think
>>> that the the notion of ANALYSIS
>>> BY UNITS, which has been discussed
>>> in xmca
>>> before, is useful here. Unit
>>> analysis reminds us that, as units,
>>> experiences, as concrete and real
>>> phenomena, have some form of
>>> organization
>>> that extends in time. That is
>>> why, if I understood the
>>> discussion below
>>> correctly, Beth is warned not
>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>> think of the unit of experience as
>>> a unit
>>> "in itself".
>>>
>>> Dewey and Bentley 1949 made the
>>> differentiation between
>>> self-action and
>>> transaction. In self action,
>>> things are
>>> explained by their own powers.
>>>
>>> This
>>>
>>> is, I believe, what Vygotsky would
>>> have
>>> referred to as analysis by
>>> elements. In transaction, they say,
>>> “deal[s] with aspects and phases of
>>> action, without final attribution to
>>> ‘elements’ or other presumptively
>>> detachable ‘entities,’ ‘essences,’ or
>>> ‘realities,’ and without isolation
>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>> presumptively detachable
>>> ‘relations’ from
>>> such detachable ‘elements’”. An
>>> experience can be studied precisely
>>> because it is not a thing in itself:
>>>
>>> it
>>>
>>> is always a moving, gesture, a
>>> "method of
>>> organization" as Dewey &
>>>
>>> Bentley
>>>
>>> write.
>>>
>>> I thought this my add something to
>>> your
>>> fascinating discussion,
>>> Alfredo
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From:
>>> xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=
>>> iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> <xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=
>>> iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>>> on
>>> behalf of
>>> mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu
>>>
>>> <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>>>
>>>
>>> Sent: 17 July 2015 18:23
>>> To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind,
>>> Culture,
>>> Activity
>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an
>>> experience
>>>
>>> Marx: It is only in a social
>>> context that
>>> subjectivism and objectivism,
>>> spiritualism and materialism,
>>> activity and
>>> passivity, cease to be
>>> antinomies and thus cease to exist
>>> as such
>>> antinomies. The resolution of
>>> the theoretical contradictions is
>>> possible
>>> only through practical means,
>>> only through the practical energy
>>> of man.
>>> Their resolution is not by any
>>> means, therefore, only a problem of
>>> knowledge, but is a real problem of
>>> life which philosophy was unable
>>> to solve
>>> precisely because it saw there
>>>
>>> a
>>>
>>> purely theoretical problem."
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 10:45 PM, Andy
>>> Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> No, no, Beth. As Dewey says:
>>>
>>> "This unity is neither
>>> emotional,
>>> practical, nor
>>> intellectual, for these
>>> terms name
>>> distinctions that
>>> reflection can make within
>>> it. In
>>> discourse//about//an
>>> experience, we must make
>>> use of
>>> these adjectives of
>>> interpretation. In going
>>> over an
>>> experience in
>>> mind//after/ /its
>>> occurrence, we
>>> may find that one
>>> property rather than
>>> another was
>>> sufficiently dominant
>>> so that it characterizes the
>>> experience as a whole."
>>>
>>> Isn't this beautiful
>>> scientific prose!
>>> We make these distinction when
>>>
>>> we
>>>
>>> *reflect* on an experience. And
>>> perhaps we include the
>>> experience in
>>>
>>> our
>>>
>>> autobiography, act it out on the
>>> stage, analyse it
>>> scientifically, all
>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>> which presupposes analysis and
>>> synthesis. But it is important to
>>>
>>> recognise
>>>
>>> that the unity is prior. It is not
>>> only a unity of emotion and
>>>
>>> cognition
>>>
>>> (for example) but also of
>>> attention
>>> and will - and any other
>>> categories
>>>
>>> you
>>>
>>> abstract from an experience.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>> <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>> <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 17/07/2015 3:00 PM, Beth
>>> Ferholt wrote:
>>>
>>> Or reproducing the part that
>>> represents the whole? Like a
>>> fractal? I
>>> think it is the similarity
>>> across
>>> scales that makes an
>>> experience
>>> proleptic, or gives that
>>> 'bliss
>>> conferred at the beginning
>>> of the road
>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>> redemption" that Vasilyuk
>>> refers
>>> to. You have an experience on
>>>
>>> several
>>>
>>> timescales and so a sense of
>>> deja-vu is central to
>>> having an
>>>
>>> experience.
>>>
>>> This is what I am thinking
>>> about
>>> after reading both the
>>> paper of
>>>
>>> Dewey's
>>>
>>> and your recent piece on
>>> perezhivanie, Andy,
>>> although I am
>>> picking up
>>>
>>> on a
>>>
>>> small piece of the last
>>> email in
>>> this chain -- : If
>>> something is only
>>> itself in its whole then
>>> you can't
>>> study it, is what is
>>> bothering me.
>>>
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at
>>> 11:22 PM,
>>> Andy Blunden
>>> <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>>
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Not "getting at
>>> something",
>>> Michael. Just pursuing
>>> this question you raised
>>> about Dewey's saying that the
>>> aesthetic quality of
>>> medieval
>>> buildings arises from
>>> their not being "planned"
>>> like buildings are nowadays.
>>> He goes on to say
>>> "Every work
>>> of art follows the plan
>>> of, and pattern of, a
>>> complete experience." The
>>> puzzle
>>> he is raising here is the
>>> completeness of an
>>> experience which
>>> gives it its
>>> aesthetic quality, and
>>> this cannot be created by
>>> assembling together parts in
>>> the way a modern
>>> building is
>>> planned. An experience -
>>> the kind of thing which
>>> sticks in your mind - is an
>>> original or prior
>>> unity, not
>>> a combination, and this
>>> is what gives a work
>>> of art
>>> that ineffable quality,
>>> something which can
>>> only be
>>> transmitted by reproducing
>>> that whole of an
>>> experience.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>> <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>> <
>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>
>>> <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>> On 17/07/2015 2:32 AM,
>>> Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>>
>>> Andy,
>>>
>>> I'm still not
>>> sure about
>>> your question. Did I set
>>> out to have that
>>> experience, that
>>> morning...no, I
>>> don't think so
>>> (it was a
>>> long time ago, but I'm
>>> pretty sure no).
>>> Could I
>>> have just treated it as
>>> an indiscriminate
>>> activity, probably, I had done
>>> so before.
>>>
>>> But I am guessing
>>> you're
>>> getting a something here
>>> Andy?
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> -----Original
>>> Message-----
>>> From:
>>> xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13=osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> <mailto:
>>> osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>
>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bglassman.13>
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bglassman.13
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%252Bglassman.13>>
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bglassman.13
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%252Bglassman.13>
>>> <mailto:
>>> xmca-l-bounces%252Bglassman.13
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%25252Bglassman.13>>>=
>>>
>>> osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>>
>>> <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>
>>> <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>] On
>>>
>>> Behalf Of
>>> Andy Blunden
>>> Sent: Thursday,
>>> July 16,
>>> 2015 12:21 PM
>>> To: eXtended Mind,
>>> Culture, Activity
>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re:
>>> Having an experience
>>>
>>> YOu said: "...
>>> But that
>>> time I had the experience
>>> with the
>>> paintings..."
>>>
>>> I mean that was an
>>> experience. Did you set out
>>> that morning to
>>> have that
>>> experience?
>>> RE, your
>>> question: "what
>>> does he mean when he says
>>> you can't do things
>>> indiscriminately and have
>>> vital experience,
>>> but you
>>> also can't plan things?"
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>> <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>> <
>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>> <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>> On 17/07/2015
>>> 2:09 AM,
>>> Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>>
>>> Well I'm not
>>> sure I
>>> understand your question
>>> Andy, but
>>> perhaps it has
>>> something to
>>> do with
>>> my grandfather's favorite
>>> saying
>>> (translated from
>>> Yiddish),
>>>
>>> Man plans,
>>> God laughs.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> -----Original
>>> Message-----
>>> From:
>>> xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=
>>>
>>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:
>>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>>
>>> <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:
>>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>
>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bmglassman>
>>> <mailto:
>>> xmca-l-bounces%2Bmglassman
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%252Bmglassman>>
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bmglassman
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%252Bmglassman>
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%252Bmglassman
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%25252Bmglassman>>>=
>>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:
>>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>]
>>> On Behalf Of
>>> Andy Blunden
>>> Sent:
>>> Thursday, July
>>> 16, 2015 12:04 PM
>>> To:
>>> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>
>>> Subject:
>>> [Xmca-l] Re:
>>> Having an experience
>>>
>>> So Michael,
>>> there was
>>> just that one occasion,
>>> in all your
>>> museum-going, when you had an
>>> experience.
>>> Was that
>>> planned?
>>> (I don't mean
>>> to say
>>> you haven't had a number
>>> of such
>>> experiences,
>>> Michael ...
>>> just some
>>> number actually)
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>> <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>> <
>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>
>>> <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>
>>> On 17/07/2015
>>> 1:19
>>> AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Larry
>>> and all,
>>>
>>> I think
>>> this is
>>> one of the most complex
>>> aspects of
>>> experience, what does he mean
>>> when he
>>> says you
>>> can't do things
>>> indiscriminately
>>> and have vital
>>> experience, but
>>> you also can't plan
>>> things? I have
>>> discussed (argued) about
>>> this a
>>> lot with
>>> my students. I have
>>> especially seen
>>> him raise this point in at
>>> least two
>>> of his
>>> great works, Democracy
>>> and
>>> Education and
>>> Experience and Nature -
>>> and again of
>>> course in Art as Experience
>>> (notice
>>> he is not
>>> saying how Art enters
>>> into
>>> experience
>>> but how art is experience
>>> - I have
>>> come to
>>> notice these little
>>> things
>>> more and
>>> more in his writing).
>>>
>>> The
>>> difficulty we
>>> have, at least in the
>>> United States
>>> because of the dominance of
>>> the idea of
>>> meta-cognition, is that we too
>>> often
>>> translate
>>> what individuals are
>>> bringing
>>> in to
>>> experience to organize it
>>> as a form of
>>> meta-cognition. It is kind
>>> of
>>> possible to
>>> make that interpretation
>>> from
>>> Democracy
>>> and Education, although
>>> what I
>>> think he
>>> is doing more is arguing
>>> against
>>> misinterpretations of his
>>> work as
>>> random, child
>>> centered activities. I
>>> think he is
>>> clearer in Experience and
>>> Nature
>>> that we
>>> bring in who we are at the
>>> moment
>>> into the
>>> activity, and use who we
>>> are (I
>>> don't want
>>> to say identity) as an
>>> organizing
>>> principle for what we do. It
>>> is
>>> perhaps one of
>>> the places where Dewey
>>> and
>>> Vygotsky are
>>> close. Perhaps I can use
>>> the same
>>> Jackson
>>> Pollock example. The
>>> first few
>>> times I
>>> saw his paintings I was
>>> trying to
>>> "apprecitate" them because
>>> I was
>>> told that
>>> was the
>>> best way to experience
>>> them. Dewey says
>>> no vital experience
>>> there
>>> because my
>>> activities become stilted
>>> and artificia
>>> l.
>>> Sometimes
>>> I went through the
>>> museum
>>> and just
>>> looked at pictures, one to
>>> the other. No
>>> vital experience there,
>>> just random
>>> threads. But that time I had
>>> the
>>> experience
>>> with the paintings I was
>>> allowing
>>> who I
>>> was, what had been built up
>>> in the
>>> trajectory
>>> of my life to enter into
>>> my experience
>>> with the painting, making it
>>> a vital
>>> experience. I think Dewey
>>> makes
>>> the
>>> argument in
>>> Experience and Nature that
>>> it is not
>>> just
>>> the experience the moment
>>> before,
>>> but the
>>> experiences leading to
>>> that
>>> experience,
>>> the context of my life,
>>> of my
>>> parent's
>>> life, of a long line of
>>> historical
>>> experiences.
>>>
>>> Anyway,
>>> my take.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Beth Ferholt
>>> Assistant Professor
>>> Department of Early
>>> Childhood and
>>> Art Education
>>> Brooklyn College, City
>>> University
>>> of New York
>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>>>
>>> Email:
>>> bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>> <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
>>> <mailto:
>>> bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>> <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>>
>>> <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>> <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
>>>
>>> <mailto:
>>> bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>> <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>>>
>>>
>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205
>>> <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
>>> <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
>>> <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816
>>> <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
>>> <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
>>> <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Both environment and species
>>> change in the
>>> course of time, and thus
>>> ecological niches are not stable
>>> and given
>>> forever (Polotova & Storch,
>>> Ecological Niche, 2008)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Both environment and species change in the
>>> course of time, and thus
>>> ecological niches are not stable and given
>>> forever (Polotova & Storch,
>>> Ecological Niche, 2008)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Beth Ferholt
>>> Assistant Professor
>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>>>
>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>> <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
>>> <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>> <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>>
>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Beth Ferholt
>>> Assistant Professor
>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>>>
>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205
>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Beth Ferholt
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> 2900 Bedford Avenue
> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>
> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> Phone: (718) 951-5205
> Fax: (718) 951-4816
>
--
Beth Ferholt
Assistant Professor
Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
Brooklyn College, City University of New York
2900 Bedford Avenue
Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
Phone: (718) 951-5205
Fax: (718) 951-4816
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