From arazfar@uic.edu Thu Jan 1 06:58:10 2015 From: arazfar@uic.edu (Aria Razfar) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2015 08:58:10 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> Message-ID: <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> Miguel/Mike, I think we have a testimonio here. We have questions borne out of a traumatic historical and social episode (WWII), followed by a movement outward "going East," only to discover one's self "Dewey." The self becomes an allegory for the whole. It may seem that Spivak is saying translation is impossible, but I think a testimonio shows the possibility of translation. Thanks for this gift and happy new year! Aria -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:23 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context I inherited such questions as part of my family history and my coming to age during the period of post world war II decolonization, Aria, well before I travelled East, as you suggest. Interestingly, it was in going in East that I discovered Dewey.... such was the form of education that led to my phd. Concerning misleading translations. I have PLENTY of problems with issues of translating Vygotsky, in words and in practice! Ask any Russian or scholar whose knowledge of Russian was acquired after the age of 20! (Plenty right here on xmca, one I can see logged into gmail right now). There is a piece in MCA a while back on the perils of translating a key term involving eaching/learning/instruction that is part of an ongoing set of questions about the meaning of the term, zone of proximal development. Peter's note with the distinction between decolonial/postcolonial seems to pick up on some of the themes that various folks who participated in the Migrant program are making. Gotta check out wikipedia on third spaces. The metaphor sure has a lot of homes in a lot of discourse communities and I suspect that some translation will be needed! mike On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: > > Mike, would you say that you have been seeking answers to these > questions by "going East"? I think Spivak would agree with the second > question. In "Translating into English" she talks about how > "generations of empiricist English translators have missed the point > with Marx's philosophical presuppositions, translated 'inhaltslos' as > 'slight in content' and thus made nonsense out of the entire > discussion of value. You may have had a smiliar experience translating Vygotsky. > > Here it is: > > http://przeklad.nazwa.pl/schowek/spivak2.pdf > > Aria > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 1:07 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > Aria--- I had not read the Spivak article, although the question she > asks is one I have been asking myself for half a century. And, I would > add, under what conditions? > > I found the article here in case others share my ignorance. > mike > > http://www.mcgill.ca/files/crclaw-discourse/Can_the_subaltern_speak.pd > f > > On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: > > > Larry, > > > > The specific stance that is amplified by the intersections of "third > > space" post-colonial theory, sociocultural theory, and "testimonio" > > is somewhat apparent in the language choice. There is no English > > equivalent because there cannot be an English equivalent. At least, > > there cannot be an "English-Only" equivalent. It represents a > > movement toward an indigenous stance on voice, agency, knowledge, > > certainty, validity, language choice, and learning. I say a "movement toward" > > because Spanish itself carries similar baggage especially within the > > Latin American context. This is the rationale for why some use the > > Aztec idea of Nepantla instead of "Third Space" (e.g., Rochelle > > Guiterrez, Gloria Anzaldua). "Testimonio" further complicates what > > it means for "subalterns" to "reclaim voice" through the dominant voice. > > This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the > > subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step > > outside" the inscribed institutional roles, together in order to > > move "to the roots of our being human together." Spivak was > > specfically critiqueing "the Western intellectual" voice wondering > > if it truly could be a tool of liberation. It seems like a "core" > > identity question as we move through various historical > > entanglements seeking answers to ontological questions of self in > > relation to other. Also > looking forward to this type of re-search. > > > > Aria > > > > > > > > > > > > Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of > > Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois > > at Chicago > > 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > > Chicago, IL, 60607 > > > > Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action > > Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org > > > > Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > > Tel: 312-413-8373 > > Fax: 312-996-8134 > > > > This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the > > subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step > > outside" the inscribed roles, together in order to move "to the > > roots of our being human together." It seems like a "core" identity > > question as we move through various historical entanglements seeking > > answers to ontological questions of self in relation to other. Also > > looking forward to this type of re-search. > > > > Aria > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry > > xmca-l-bounces+Purss > > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:08 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > > > Aria, > > I want to repeat and amplify your suggestion : > > > > It is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its > > analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., liminality, > > double consciousness, third place, etc.). The post-colonial uptake > > of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) within the sociocultural > > theory is a very specific stance and this might be the moment for > > that > conversation as well. > > > > To focus on the *third space* as a VERY SPECIFIC stance. > > I would like to become clear on the centrality of *witnessing* as > > central or the re-search fades away. > > Also terms such as *mutuality* contrasted with *reciprocity* or > > *transactions*. > > > > Testimonios as neither subjective [alone] or objective [alone] but a > > hybrid MODE that is a form of witnessing. > > I would also suggest the theme of *gift* as more than transaction or > > echange [in continental philosophy traditions] is relevant. > > > > There is a *spirit* and a moral virtue within this form of > > witnessing as *third space* that plays around with notions of > > *trans* as moving across forms [horizons] as trans-versals [or trans-verse-als] . > > I have an intuition that this type of witnessing is radical, going > > to the roots of our being human together. > > > > Aria, I look forward to further re-search Larry > > > > On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Aria Razfar wrote: > > > > > For those of us working with Kris' sociocritical perspective, > > > third space has been a valuable construct for thinking about > > > collective learning zopeds and consciousness for that matter. It > > > is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its > > > analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., > > > liminality, double consciousness, third place, etc.). The > > > post-colonial uptake of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) > > > within the sociocultural theory is a very specific stance and this > > > might be the moment for that conversation as > > well. > > > > > > Aria > > > > > > Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > > > Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of > > > Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of > > > Illinois at Chicago > > > 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > > > Chicago, IL, 60607 > > > > > > Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and > > > Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org > > > > > > Webpage: > > > http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > > > Tel: 312-413-8373 > > > Fax: 312-996-8134 > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kris > > > Gutierrez > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:56 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > > > > > Annalisa, Manuel initiated the last uptake. (I think others have > > > clarified that now :) > > > > > > Mike C., Miguel Zavala, Larry Purss and I posted some thoughts > > > before the holidays. For me it is useful to connect Manuel?s > > > recent post to those earlier thoughts/conversations. > > > > > > Some very quick very unedited thoughts following up on Manuel?s post: > > > > > > Michael G., Mike C. correctly points out that the > > > testimonios/autobiographies were not research techniques but > > > generative tools that were indeed a part of the interconnected set > > > of practices that created a collective zoped?a third space if you will. > > > I try to elaborate this idea in the Scribner Lecture piece > > > (sociocritical literacies). My own work on Third Space, the > > > collective work of the instructional team of MSI, ongoing > > > conversations with Mike C. and Yrjo over the years at the lab, and > > > their work certainly informed this idea of a collective zoped, > > > collective third space (See Engestr?m, 1987, 1994 in particular; > > > Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993; Tuomi-Gr?hn & Engestr?m, 2003; Tuomi- > > > Gr?hn, Engestr?m, & Young, 2003; Chaiklin, 2003, Moll, 1990; Moll > > > & Greenberg, 1990 as key examples that certainly inform this work > > > as > well. > > And LSV and Bakhtin are ever present). > > > These, I think, are useful references, all cited in the article. > > > Shirin Vossoughi?s recent MCA piece also is very relevant to this > > discussion. > > > > > > Some relevant excerpts from the sociocritical article, > > > > > > "To illustrate these points and their relation to a collective > > > Third Space, let us examine the MSLI more closely. > > > The activity system, the MSLI, has a specific internal logic > > > organized around expanding the students? sociohistorical and > > > educational ecology through the collective imagining of a new > > > educational and sociopolitical future. > > > To avoid the ?interactional reductionism implicit in much > > > Vygotskian-inspired research? (Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993, p. 284), > > > the specific interactions and practices of the MSLI are understood > > > as what Nicolopoulou and Cole call a ?genuinely collective reality? > (p. 284). > > > > > > Here we see the [Migrant] institute as an example of the Third > > > Space, a collective zo-ped, at the larger level of activity the > > > object of which is the sociohistorical reconstruction of what it > > > means to be a migrant student. > > > This movement involves a process of becoming conscious ?historical > > actors? > > > (Espinoza, 2003) who invoke the past in order to re-mediate it so > > > that it becomes a resource for current and future action (p. 154)." > > > > > > Testimonios and their embodiment in Teatro del Oprimido (Boal?s > > > Theatre of the Oppressed that Manuel introduced to us and the > > > program and that he and Vossoughi elaborated) were key means of > > > developing/inciting a new social and pedagogical imagination and > > > for imagining new futures with/for the migrant students, their > > > communities, and indeed for all of us, as Manuel so thoughtfully > > > writes. Teatro served as a collective problem-solving space?a > > > space where the playful imagination helped to make inequities and > > > the roots of social problems visible, while providing an > > > opportunity to re-frame events, re-mediate and enact an imagined > > > future collectively (such as flying collectively/social dreaming). > > > I hope Manuel and Shirin jump in and elaborate these thoughts. > > > > > > Re: Research design: For me, Migrant was in Yrjo and Mike's > > > approach, a formative experiment; what I term social design > > > experiments?a designed based research approach that foregrounds > > > equity, diversity, historicity, and re-mediation, for example. As > > > Susan Jurow and I wrote and presented at the ICLS conference this > > > summer (a piece that we expect will be part of a larger set of > > > papers with Mike C., Yrjo and Annalisa, and Bill Penuel), social > > > design experiments: aim to make possible a sustainable and > > > dignified life for all humans; address the challenges of > > > leveraging cultural diversity and reducing social inequality; and > > > call for the co-design of new tools and futures with members of > > > non-dominant communities, as but a few key design principles. > > > > > > Absolutely, research as re-searching?searching for the answer > > > to a question you have searched for repeatedly without success! > > > Well said, Miguel Cole! Thanks, for your thoughts, Michael Glassman! > > > > > > more on sociocritical literacies, later. kris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kris Gutierrez > > > gutierkd@gmail.com > > > > > > Kris D. Guti?rrez > > > Professor > > > Graduate School of Education > > > 5629 Tolman Hall #1670 > > > University of California, Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-1670 > > > > > > Distinguished Professor > > > Learning Sciences and Literacy > > > School of Education > > > University of Colorado, Boulder > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 30, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Annalisa Aguilar > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello! > > > > > > > > Sorry for being silly here, but I couldn't help but see that so > > > > far on > > > this thread, there have been appearances by: > > > > > > > > mike, Annalisa, Michael, Luisa, and Miguel! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Jan 1 17:48:49 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2015 17:48:49 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics Message-ID: I am choosing to open another thread so that the focus does not shift from the specific notion of testimonio towards hermeneutics in that other thread. However, I see significant overlaps with the more 'general' notion of hermeneutic(s) [multiple types of interpretation]. I am suggesting that the concrete specifics of the *third space* within testimonio may overlap with the more general re-search into the multiple types of interpretation that ENCOMPASS other historically situated events. I am going to write out three paragraphs from the introduction to Richard E. Palmer's 1969 book "Hermeneutics" and replace the word *literature* with the word *testimonio* to indicate how I am translating the concrete example of testimonio into the more general notion of literature. I am attempting to grasp the power and depth of *literature*. Far more than man realizes, he channels through language the various facets of his living - his worshipping, loving, social behaviour, abstract thought; even the shape of his feelings is conformed to language. If the matter is considered deeply, it becomes apparent that language is the "medium" in which we live, and move, and have our being. From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jan 1 18:09:44 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 02:09:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1420164584255.3335@unm.edu> Unless of course one is a painter, then one's medium is pigment and linseed oil! If one is a photographer, then it is light and silver nitrate. :) ________________________________________ Sent: Thursday, January 1, 2015 6:48 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics ? If the matter is considered deeply, it becomes apparent that language is the "medium" in which we live, and move, and have our being. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Jan 1 18:12:28 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2015 18:12:28 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I accidently sent the thread without the other paragraphs. I will continue: "Interpretation, then, is a complex and pervasive phenomenon. Yet how complexly, how deeply does the literary critic conceive it in his understanding? We need to ask whether critics do not tend to equate analysis with interpretation. We need to ask whether the realistic metaphysics and assumptions underlying modern criticism in most of its forms do not present an oversimplified and even distorted view of interpretation. A work of [testimonio] is not an object we understand by conceptualizing or analyzing it; it is a VOICE we must hear, and through "hearing" (rather than seeing) understand. As the coming chapters will suggest, understanding is BOTH epistemological and an ontological phenomenon. Understanding of [testimonio] must be rooted in the more primal and ENCOMPASSING modes of understanding that have to do with our very being-in-the-world. Understanding a [testimonio work, therefore, is not a scientific kind of knowing which flees away from existence into a world of concepts; it is an historical encounter which calls forth personal experience of being here in the world" I want to suggest there are overlaps between hermeneutic(s) and testimonio. Hermeneutics was [in]formed by German phenomenology and existential philosophy. Testimonio is [in]formed by a different culture and historical event questioning and transforming marginalized voices. However, in this concrete event testimonio may also deepen hermeneutical understanding and interpretation. In particular the more encompassing hybrid personal autobiography AND intersubjective "witnessing" VOICE as a "unifying" third space. The notion of re-search has me returning to hermeneutical ways of moving between analysis and a more encompassing interpretation that includes analysis but is not limited to analysis. This is another tradition but may be relevant for others Larry On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 5:48 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > I am choosing to open another thread so that the focus does not shift from > the specific notion of testimonio towards hermeneutics in that other > thread. However, I see significant overlaps with the more 'general' notion > of hermeneutic(s) [multiple types of interpretation]. I am suggesting that > the concrete specifics of the *third space* within testimonio may overlap > with the more general re-search into the multiple types of interpretation > that ENCOMPASS other historically situated events. > > I am going to write out three paragraphs from the introduction to Richard > E. Palmer's 1969 book "Hermeneutics" and replace the word *literature* with > the word *testimonio* to indicate how I am translating the concrete example > of testimonio into the more general notion of literature. I am attempting > to grasp the power and depth of *literature*. > > Far more than man realizes, he channels through language the various > facets of his living - his worshipping, loving, social behaviour, abstract > thought; even the shape of his feelings is conformed to language. If the > matter is considered deeply, it becomes apparent that language is the > "medium" in which we live, and move, and have our being. > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Jan 1 18:21:14 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2015 18:21:14 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics In-Reply-To: <1420164584255.3335@unm.edu> References: <1420164584255.3335@unm.edu> Message-ID: Yes, multi-modal. The notion of *encompassing* suggests that *voice* and *hearing each other into voice* has been less dominant and in some ways marginalized. Not in fact, but in theory. A case could also be made for other *modes*. However *voice* as used by Richard Palmer is indicating another tradition that overlaps our re-search. Testimonio is exploring *voice* AND *design* and *third spaces* which can deepen our understanding of modes as multi-modal and deeply complex. It is a SPECIFIC STANCE answering a particular situated reality, but may also be exploring a more encompassing way of living. Larry On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 6:09 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Unless of course one is a painter, then one's medium is pigment and > linseed oil! > > If one is a photographer, then it is light and silver nitrate. > > :) > > ________________________________________ > > Sent: Thursday, January 1, 2015 6:48 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics > > ? If the matter is considered deeply, it becomes apparent that language is > the "medium" in which we live, and move, and have our being. > > From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jan 1 18:28:38 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 02:28:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics In-Reply-To: References: <1420164584255.3335@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1420165717881.34155@unm.edu> Larry, What I wonder though is if it isn't a mode but a meaning. It isn't the testimonio per se (as a mode), but what it points to, what it references. Otherwise it is just a transcript, and I don't think that that is what you *mean*. We don't search for modes, we search for meaning, don't we? Just adding to the soup! Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Larry Purss Sent: Thursday, January 1, 2015 7:21 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics Yes, multi-modal. The notion of *encompassing* suggests that *voice* and *hearing each other into voice* has been less dominant and in some ways marginalized. Not in fact, but in theory. A case could also be made for other *modes*. However *voice* as used by Richard Palmer is indicating another tradition that overlaps our re-search. Testimonio is exploring *voice* AND *design* and *third spaces* which can deepen our understanding of modes as multi-modal and deeply complex. It is a SPECIFIC STANCE answering a particular situated reality, but may also be exploring a more encompassing way of living. Larry On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 6:09 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Unless of course one is a painter, then one's medium is pigment and > linseed oil! > > If one is a photographer, then it is light and silver nitrate. > > :) > > ________________________________________ > > Sent: Thursday, January 1, 2015 6:48 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics > > ? If the matter is considered deeply, it becomes apparent that language is > the "medium" in which we live, and move, and have our being. > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Jan 1 19:05:55 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2015 19:05:55 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics In-Reply-To: <1420165717881.34155@unm.edu> References: <1420164584255.3335@unm.edu> <1420165717881.34155@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, If we first consider *testemonio* or more generally *works* as human modes in contrast to the more general *objects* that may include testimonio, literature, painting, commentary, AS *works* but go beyond *works* then we can contrast notions of *works* as parts and notions of *objects* as being more encompassing, general, and abstract because *objects* also includes natural phenomena. Hermeneutics then is understood as re-searching the meanings expressed through culturall historical *works*. Meaning as mutual intersubjective phenomena within human *works* is the realm of activity which *philosophical hermeneutics* explores both theoretically and practically. Voice, and witnessing and the notion of "hearing each other into voice" is the ethical virtue expressed within the theoretical foundations of *philosophical hermeneutic(s)* Testimonio can be *read* as a more specific situated event of re-searching this particular type of meaning as cultural modes of creating *works* Larry On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 6:28 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Larry, > > What I wonder though is if it isn't a mode but a meaning. It isn't the > testimonio per se (as a mode), but what it points to, what it references. > Otherwise it is just a transcript, and I don't think that that is what you > *mean*. > > We don't search for modes, we search for meaning, don't we? > > Just adding to the soup! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Larry Purss > Sent: Thursday, January 1, 2015 7:21 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics > > Yes, multi-modal. > The notion of *encompassing* suggests that *voice* and *hearing each other > into voice* has been less dominant and in some ways marginalized. Not in > fact, but in theory. > A case could also be made for other *modes*. However *voice* as used by > Richard Palmer is indicating another tradition that overlaps our re-search. > Testimonio is exploring *voice* AND *design* and *third spaces* which can > deepen our understanding of modes as multi-modal and deeply complex. It is > a SPECIFIC STANCE answering a particular situated reality, but may also be > exploring a more encompassing > way of living. > Larry > > On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 6:09 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Unless of course one is a painter, then one's medium is pigment and > > linseed oil! > > > > If one is a photographer, then it is light and silver nitrate. > > > > :) > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 1, 2015 6:48 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics > > > > ? If the matter is considered deeply, it becomes apparent that language > is > > the "medium" in which we live, and move, and have our being. > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jan 1 19:26:12 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 03:26:12 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics In-Reply-To: References: <1420164584255.3335@unm.edu> <1420165717881.34155@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1420169172250.36325@unm.edu> Hi Larry, I am skeptical about making a work into an object, because by making it an object I must decontextualize it. When I decontextualize it, it is no longer a work situated in an environment to be enjoyed in its cultural setting. The act of removal is an act of destroying original meaning. Sometimes this act of removal is inevitable, as when a work takes on new meanings, such as the Mona Lisa as a "work of art" in the Louvre, as opposed to being a portrait of a woman painted in the Renaissance by Leonardo for King Francois I of France (or however the story goes) and hung in a chateau, even though the Louvre was once a chateau, now it is a museum. So the work has a new meaning. Object for me signifies a loss of context and that is why it is now an object. So I possess a particular definition for "object." Still, I think we have more that we share in agreement on this than disagreement. Testimony is one means of knowledge and why we give it such stock in a courtroom. Of course it is up to be challenged by adversaries in that context, so I don't think challenging testimonio is what is being pursued here, but acceptance of it as a product of experience, or an undertaking of meaning-making. However, I cannot say that this is actually the case (regarding testimony), but just my own sense-making about it. Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Jan 1 20:42:28 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2015 20:42:28 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics In-Reply-To: <1420169172250.36325@unm.edu> References: <1420164584255.3335@unm.edu> <1420165717881.34155@unm.edu> <1420169172250.36325@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, Yes, similarly exploring works and meaning. Original meaning as expressed in works, which need to be continually re-worked when encountered and experienced Considering *testimonio* being informed within third spaces, I purposely started a new thread on hermeneutics to be careful to allow the other thread to develop those specific understanding(s) of testimonio. THIS meaning as being created within a specific cultural historical tradition. Many references were offered linking that tradition to Vygotsky and activity theory and the 5th dimension. The specificity of that thread as developing within particular situations of designed pedagogy as living in third space. I wanted to honour and recognize the specificity of this tradition as developing beyond my experiences, but as an example of living in truth with self and community However, I did *perceive* or *hear* an overlapping theme with this other tradition of hermeneutics which I wanted to point out as possibly sharing a mutual theme of *hearing the other into voice* as a particular type of *witnessing*. In other words, testimonio has the potential to transform and deepen the theoretical approach of philosophical hermeneutic(s) that originally formed and developed in a very different German context. Therefore the value of two alternative threads. I myself am trying to situate cultural historical theory as both literature and science that seems to be a unique way of linking these themes. Larry On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:26 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Larry, > > I am skeptical about making a work into an object, because by making it an > object I must decontextualize it. When I decontextualize it, it is no > longer a work situated in an environment to be enjoyed in its cultural > setting. > > The act of removal is an act of destroying original meaning. Sometimes > this act of removal is inevitable, as when a work takes on new meanings, > such as the Mona Lisa as a "work of art" in the Louvre, as opposed to being > a portrait of a woman painted in the Renaissance by Leonardo for King > Francois I of France (or however the story goes) and hung in a chateau, > even though the Louvre was once a chateau, now it is a museum. So the work > has a new meaning. > > Object for me signifies a loss of context and that is why it is now an > object. So I possess a particular definition for "object." > > Still, I think we have more that we share in agreement on this than > disagreement. > > Testimony is one means of knowledge and why we give it such stock in a > courtroom. Of course it is up to be challenged by adversaries in that > context, so I don't think challenging testimonio is what is being pursued > here, but acceptance of it as a product of experience, or an undertaking of > meaning-making. > > However, I cannot say that this is actually the case (regarding > testimony), but just my own sense-making about it. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From laires11@gmail.com Fri Jan 2 01:21:31 2015 From: laires11@gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Lu=C3=ADsa_Aires?=) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 09:21:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Happy New Year In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear friends I wish ALL of you a happy New Year. Best, Luisa > Em 01/01/2015, ?s 06:06, Daniel Hyman escreveu: > > Amen to that - warm regards! > > All best, > > Dan and Elina > > On Wednesday, December 31, 2014, Ana Marjanovic-Shane > wrote: > >> Dear Friends, >> >> Happy New 2015 Year! >> >> Let it be much better than the old one! >> May all people find peace, prosperity and joy among friends and family! >> >> See you next year! >> >> Ana >> >> >> >> ____________________________________ >> Ana Marjanovic-Shane >> Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal >> Associate Professor of Education >> Chestnut Hill College >> Emails: anamshane@gmail.com >> shaneam@chc.edu >> Phone: 267-334-2905 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Fri Jan 2 09:53:30 2015 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 14:53:30 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?On_=E2=80=9CThe_New_Republic=E2=80=9D_=7C_The_Los_Ange?= =?utf-8?q?les_Review_of_Books?= Message-ID: Dear all, For those of you following the end of TNR this essay may be of interest. It also deals with the status of enlightment in the brave new world of the internet in an insightful manner. David lareviewofbooks.org/essay/new-republic Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? Enviado desde mi iPhone From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Jan 2 12:38:42 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 12:38:42 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] A primer of culture and semantics Message-ID: To others who like myself do not have a background in linguistics, I offer a very short 5 page essay that summarizes concisely the exploration of semantics within culture and language and cognition studies in the last century. http://www.revue-texto.net/Inedits/Manjali_Culture.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jan 2 12:48:00 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 12:48:00 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A primer of culture and semantics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That looks very useful. Seems like perfect for the to-be-newcomers facility Thanks Larry! On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 12:38 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > To others who like myself do not have a background in linguistics, I offer > a very short 5 page essay that summarizes concisely the exploration of > semantics within culture and language and cognition studies in the last > century. > > http://www.revue-texto.net/Inedits/Manjali_Culture.html > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jan 2 14:28:37 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 22:28:37 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics In-Reply-To: References: <1420164584255.3335@unm.edu> <1420165717881.34155@unm.edu> <1420169172250.36325@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1420237717130.63674@unm.edu> Hello Larry! OK, so let's explore the tradition of hermenuetics! Would you (and any others inclined or inspired) mind to provide a short, simple history of the German context of that tradition as it has been handed down to us today? Then perhaps, if you are further inspired, to explain the links in which you see to testimonio and witnessing? I see from what little I know of testimonio that witnessing is the other side of it. That they are a dyad of experience. However I'm not certain if I am correct to make such an assertion. Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jan 2 15:29:56 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 23:29:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A primer of culture and semantics In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <1420241396473.93538@unm.edu> Noted! (for the ABC!) ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Friday, January 2, 2015 1:48 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A primer of culture and semantics That looks very useful. Seems like perfect for the to-be-newcomers facility Thanks Larry! On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 12:38 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > To others who like myself do not have a background in linguistics, I offer > a very short 5 page essay that summarizes concisely the exploration of > semantics within culture and language and cognition studies in the last > century. > > http://www.revue-texto.net/Inedits/Manjali_Culture.html > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Jan 2 16:38:53 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 00:38:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics In-Reply-To: <1420237717130.63674@unm.edu> References: <1420164584255.3335@unm.edu> <1420165717881.34155@unm.edu> <1420169172250.36325@unm.edu>, <1420237717130.63674@unm.edu> Message-ID: <14B53BD0-8831-4779-9F90-4386E13EE62E@uniandes.edu.co> I have such a history in my book The Science of Qualitative Research. Chapter 4. It's on Google books.... Martin On Jan 2, 2015, at 5:28 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Would you (and any others inclined or inspired) mind to provide a short, simple history of the German context of that tradition as it has been handed down to us today? From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jan 2 16:51:05 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 00:51:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics In-Reply-To: <14B53BD0-8831-4779-9F90-4386E13EE62E@uniandes.edu.co> References: <1420164584255.3335@unm.edu> <1420165717881.34155@unm.edu> <1420169172250.36325@unm.edu>, <1420237717130.63674@unm.edu>, <14B53BD0-8831-4779-9F90-4386E13EE62E@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <1420246264632.21925@unm.edu> Beauuuutifullll! :) ?off to google books... Uh-oh! I just looked and it doesn't appear that Ch 4 appears in the Google-books preview of your book! Pages 42-117 are not shown? Any ideas, Martin? Thanks! Annalisa On Jan 2, 2015, at 5:38 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > I have such a history in my book The Science of Qualitative Research. Chapter 4. It's on Google books.... > Martin On Jan 2, 2015, at 5:28 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Would you (and any others inclined or inspired) mind to provide a short, simple history of the German context of that tradition as it has been handed down to us today? From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Jan 2 17:25:46 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 01:25:46 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics In-Reply-To: <1420246264632.21925@unm.edu> References: <1420164584255.3335@unm.edu> <1420165717881.34155@unm.edu> <1420169172250.36325@unm.edu>, <1420237717130.63674@unm.edu>, <14B53BD0-8831-4779-9F90-4386E13EE62E@uniandes.edu.co> <1420246264632.21925@unm.edu> Message-ID: <6AE3D8E0-568D-4443-9EC6-E6E843F64534@uniandes.edu.co> Buy the book? :) Oh, I suppose I could post it. I'll get clipping.... Martin On Jan 2, 2015, at 7:51 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Beauuuutifullll! > > :) > > ?off to google books... > > Uh-oh! I just looked and it doesn't appear that Ch 4 appears in the Google-books preview of your book! > > Pages 42-117 are not shown? > > Any ideas, Martin? > > Thanks! > > Annalisa > > > > On Jan 2, 2015, at 5:38 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > >> I have such a history in my book The Science of Qualitative Research. Chapter 4. It's on Google books.... > >> Martin > > > On Jan 2, 2015, at 5:28 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> Would you (and any others inclined or inspired) mind to provide a short, simple history of the German context of that tradition as it has been handed down to us today? > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Jan 2 18:03:06 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 02:03:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics In-Reply-To: <6AE3D8E0-568D-4443-9EC6-E6E843F64534@uniandes.edu.co> References: <1420164584255.3335@unm.edu> <1420165717881.34155@unm.edu> <1420169172250.36325@unm.edu>, <1420237717130.63674@unm.edu>, <14B53BD0-8831-4779-9F90-4386E13EE62E@uniandes.edu.co> <1420246264632.21925@unm.edu> <6AE3D8E0-568D-4443-9EC6-E6E843F64534@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <1D927E1C-0B45-474C-AD02-906859C1F598@uniandes.edu.co> On Jan 2, 2015, at 8:25 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Buy the book? :) > > Oh, I suppose I could post it. I'll get clipping.... > > Martin > > On Jan 2, 2015, at 7:51 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> Beauuuutifullll! >> >> :) >> >> ?off to google books... >> >> Uh-oh! I just looked and it doesn't appear that Ch 4 appears in the Google-books preview of your book! >> >> Pages 42-117 are not shown? >> >> Any ideas, Martin? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> On Jan 2, 2015, at 5:38 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: >> >>> I have such a history in my book The Science of Qualitative Research. Chapter 4. It's on Google books.... >> >>> Martin >> >> >> On Jan 2, 2015, at 5:28 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >>> Would you (and any others inclined or inspired) mind to provide a short, simple history of the German context of that tradition as it has been handed down to us today? >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Pages from Martin Packer-The Science of Qualitative Research-Cambridge University Press (2010).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 96736 bytes Desc: Pages from Martin Packer-The Science of Qualitative Research-Cambridge University Press (2010).pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150103/a29ea2a5/attachment.pdf From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jan 2 19:02:05 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 03:02:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics In-Reply-To: <1D927E1C-0B45-474C-AD02-906859C1F598@uniandes.edu.co> References: <1420164584255.3335@unm.edu> <1420165717881.34155@unm.edu> <1420169172250.36325@unm.edu>, <1420237717130.63674@unm.edu>, <14B53BD0-8831-4779-9F90-4386E13EE62E@uniandes.edu.co> <1420246264632.21925@unm.edu> <6AE3D8E0-568D-4443-9EC6-E6E843F64534@uniandes.edu.co>, <1D927E1C-0B45-474C-AD02-906859C1F598@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <1420254125416.48998@unm.edu> Martin! I just scanned quickly, but this is wayyyyy cooooool! Thanks for posting it. :) Kind regards, Annalisa P.S. Would you like your book to go in the ABC? If so, would you write a 100-word blurb (not the abstract) with an RLD? For RLD rubric see: http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15858?page=3 ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin John Packer Sent: Friday, January 2, 2015 7:03:06 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics On Jan 2, 2015, at 8:25 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Buy the book? :) > > Oh, I suppose I could post it. I'll get clipping.... > > Martin > > On Jan 2, 2015, at 7:51 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> Beauuuutifullll! >> >> :) >> >> ?off to google books... >> >> Uh-oh! I just looked and it doesn't appear that Ch 4 appears in the Google-books preview of your book! >> >> Pages 42-117 are not shown? >> >> Any ideas, Martin? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> On Jan 2, 2015, at 5:38 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: >> >>> I have such a history in my book The Science of Qualitative Research. Chapter 4. It's on Google books.... >> >>> Martin >> >> >> On Jan 2, 2015, at 5:28 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >>> Would you (and any others inclined or inspired) mind to provide a short, simple history of the German context of that tradition as it has been handed down to us today? >> >> > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Jan 2 22:02:01 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 22:02:01 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics In-Reply-To: <1420254125416.48998@unm.edu> References: <1420164584255.3335@unm.edu> <1420165717881.34155@unm.edu> <1420169172250.36325@unm.edu> <, > <1420237717130.63674@unm.edu> <, > <14B53BD0-8831-4779-9F90-4386E13EE62E@uniandes.edu.co> <1420246264632.21925@unm.edu> <6AE3D8E0-568D-4443-9EC6-E6E843F64534@uniandes.edu.co> <, > <1D927E1C-0B45-474C-AD02-906859C1F598@uniandes.edu.co> <1420254125416.48998@unm.edu> Message-ID: <521F11CF-7EFF-4E6C-B32A-F2B587BCD958@gmail.com> Soooo cooool! We are not worthy. Henry > On Jan 2, 2015, at 7:02 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Martin! > > I just scanned quickly, but this is wayyyyy cooooool! > > Thanks for posting it. :) > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > P.S. Would you like your book to go in the ABC? If so, would you write a 100-word blurb (not the abstract) with an RLD? For RLD rubric see: http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15858?page=3 > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin John Packer > Sent: Friday, January 2, 2015 7:03:06 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics > > On Jan 2, 2015, at 8:25 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > >> Buy the book? :) >> >> Oh, I suppose I could post it. I'll get clipping.... >> >> Martin >> >> On Jan 2, 2015, at 7:51 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >>> Beauuuutifullll! >>> >>> :) >>> >>> ?off to google books... >>> >>> Uh-oh! I just looked and it doesn't appear that Ch 4 appears in the Google-books preview of your book! >>> >>> Pages 42-117 are not shown? >>> >>> Any ideas, Martin? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 2, 2015, at 5:38 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: >>> >>>> I have such a history in my book The Science of Qualitative Research. Chapter 4. It's on Google books.... >>> >>>> Martin >>> >>> >>> On Jan 2, 2015, at 5:28 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>>> Would you (and any others inclined or inspired) mind to provide a short, simple history of the German context of that tradition as it has been handed down to us today? >>> >>> >> >> > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Jan 2 22:08:26 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 23:08:26 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics In-Reply-To: <1420254125416.48998@unm.edu> References: <1420164584255.3335@unm.edu> <1420165717881.34155@unm.edu> <1420169172250.36325@unm.edu> <, > <1420237717130.63674@unm.edu> <, > <14B53BD0-8831-4779-9F90-4386E13EE62E@uniandes.edu.co> <1420246264632.21925@unm.edu> <6AE3D8E0-568D-4443-9EC6-E6E843F64534@uniandes.edu.co> <, > <1D927E1C-0B45-474C-AD02-906859C1F598@uniandes.edu.co> <1420254125416.48998@unm.edu> Message-ID: <0685580C-B5AC-448F-BD62-DCC5BC2B38CF@gmail.com> Soooo cooool! We are not worthy. Henry > On Jan 2, 2015, at 7:02 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Martin! > > I just scanned quickly, but this is wayyyyy cooooool! > > Thanks for posting it. :) > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > P.S. Would you like your book to go in the ABC? If so, would you write a 100-word blurb (not the abstract) with an RLD? For RLD rubric see: http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15858?page=3 > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin John Packer > Sent: Friday, January 2, 2015 7:03:06 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics > > On Jan 2, 2015, at 8:25 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > >> Buy the book? :) >> >> Oh, I suppose I could post it. I'll get clipping.... >> >> Martin >> >> On Jan 2, 2015, at 7:51 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >>> Beauuuutifullll! >>> >>> :) >>> >>> ?off to google books... >>> >>> Uh-oh! I just looked and it doesn't appear that Ch 4 appears in the Google-books preview of your book! >>> >>> Pages 42-117 are not shown? >>> >>> Any ideas, Martin? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 2, 2015, at 5:38 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: >>> >>>> I have such a history in my book The Science of Qualitative Research. Chapter 4. It's on Google books.... >>> >>>> Martin >>> >>> >>> On Jan 2, 2015, at 5:28 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>>> Would you (and any others inclined or inspired) mind to provide a short, simple history of the German context of that tradition as it has been handed down to us today? >>> >>> >> >> > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sat Jan 3 04:55:01 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 12:55:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics In-Reply-To: <521F11CF-7EFF-4E6C-B32A-F2B587BCD958@gmail.com> References: <1420164584255.3335@unm.edu> <1420165717881.34155@unm.edu> <1420169172250.36325@unm.edu> <, > <1420237717130.63674@unm.edu> <, > <14B53BD0-8831-4779-9F90-4386E13EE62E@uniandes.edu.co> <1420246264632.21925@unm.edu> <6AE3D8E0-568D-4443-9EC6-E6E843F64534@uniandes.edu.co> <, > <1D927E1C-0B45-474C-AD02-906859C1F598@uniandes.edu.co> <1420254125416.48998@unm.edu> <521F11CF-7EFF-4E6C-B32A-F2B587BCD958@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5843B75E-E679-4443-B4FE-AED0D7E7121E@uniandes.edu.co> :) Martin On Jan 3, 2015, at 1:02 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Soooo cooool! We are not worthy. > Henry > >> On Jan 2, 2015, at 7:02 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> >> Martin! >> >> I just scanned quickly, but this is wayyyyy cooooool! >> >> Thanks for posting it. :) >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> P.S. Would you like your book to go in the ABC? If so, would you write a 100-word blurb (not the abstract) with an RLD? For RLD rubric see: http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15858?page=3 >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin John Packer >> Sent: Friday, January 2, 2015 7:03:06 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-search Testimonio and Hermeneutics >> >> On Jan 2, 2015, at 8:25 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: >> >>> Buy the book? :) >>> >>> Oh, I suppose I could post it. I'll get clipping.... >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> On Jan 2, 2015, at 7:51 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>>> Beauuuutifullll! >>>> >>>> :) >>>> >>>> ?off to google books... >>>> >>>> Uh-oh! I just looked and it doesn't appear that Ch 4 appears in the Google-books preview of your book! >>>> >>>> Pages 42-117 are not shown? >>>> >>>> Any ideas, Martin? >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 2, 2015, at 5:38 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have such a history in my book The Science of Qualitative Research. Chapter 4. It's on Google books.... >>>> >>>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 2, 2015, at 5:28 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>>> >>>>> Would you (and any others inclined or inspired) mind to provide a short, simple history of the German context of that tradition as it has been handed down to us today? >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Jan 3 08:21:23 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 09:21:23 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> Message-ID: Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. -greg On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: > Miguel/Mike, > > I think we have a testimonio here. We have questions borne out of a > traumatic historical and social episode (WWII), followed by a movement > outward "going East," only to discover one's self "Dewey." The self becomes > an allegory for the whole. It may seem that Spivak is saying translation is > impossible, but I think a testimonio shows the possibility of translation. > Thanks for this gift and happy new year! > > Aria > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:23 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > I inherited such questions as part of my family history and my coming to > age during the period of post world war II decolonization, Aria, well > before I travelled East, as you suggest. Interestingly, it was in going in > East that I discovered Dewey.... such was the form of education that led to > my phd. > > Concerning misleading translations. > I have PLENTY of problems with issues of translating Vygotsky, in words > and in practice! Ask any Russian or scholar whose knowledge of Russian was > acquired after the age of 20! (Plenty right here on xmca, one I can see > logged into gmail right now). There is a piece in MCA a while back on the > perils of translating a key term involving eaching/learning/instruction > that is part of an ongoing set of questions about the meaning of the term, > zone of proximal development. > > Peter's note with the distinction between decolonial/postcolonial seems to > pick up on some of the themes that various folks who participated in the > Migrant program are making. Gotta check out wikipedia on third spaces. The > metaphor sure has a lot of homes in a lot of discourse communities and I > suspect that some translation will be needed! > > mike > > On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: > > > > > Mike, would you say that you have been seeking answers to these > > questions by "going East"? I think Spivak would agree with the second > > question. In "Translating into English" she talks about how > > "generations of empiricist English translators have missed the point > > with Marx's philosophical presuppositions, translated 'inhaltslos' as > > 'slight in content' and thus made nonsense out of the entire > > discussion of value. You may have had a smiliar experience translating > Vygotsky. > > > > Here it is: > > > > http://przeklad.nazwa.pl/schowek/spivak2.pdf > > > > Aria > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > > Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 1:07 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > > > Aria--- I had not read the Spivak article, although the question she > > asks is one I have been asking myself for half a century. And, I would > > add, under what conditions? > > > > I found the article here in case others share my ignorance. > > mike > > > > http://www.mcgill.ca/files/crclaw-discourse/Can_the_subaltern_speak.pd > > f > > > > On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > The specific stance that is amplified by the intersections of "third > > > space" post-colonial theory, sociocultural theory, and "testimonio" > > > is somewhat apparent in the language choice. There is no English > > > equivalent because there cannot be an English equivalent. At least, > > > there cannot be an "English-Only" equivalent. It represents a > > > movement toward an indigenous stance on voice, agency, knowledge, > > > certainty, validity, language choice, and learning. I say a "movement > toward" > > > because Spanish itself carries similar baggage especially within the > > > Latin American context. This is the rationale for why some use the > > > Aztec idea of Nepantla instead of "Third Space" (e.g., Rochelle > > > Guiterrez, Gloria Anzaldua). "Testimonio" further complicates what > > > it means for "subalterns" to "reclaim voice" through the dominant > voice. > > > This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the > > > subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step > > > outside" the inscribed institutional roles, together in order to > > > move "to the roots of our being human together." Spivak was > > > specfically critiqueing "the Western intellectual" voice wondering > > > if it truly could be a tool of liberation. It seems like a "core" > > > identity question as we move through various historical > > > entanglements seeking answers to ontological questions of self in > > > relation to other. Also > > looking forward to this type of re-search. > > > > > > Aria > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > > > Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of > > > Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois > > > at Chicago > > > 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > > > Chicago, IL, 60607 > > > > > > Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action > > > Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org > > > > > > Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > > > Tel: 312-413-8373 > > > Fax: 312-996-8134 > > > > > > This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the > > > subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step > > > outside" the inscribed roles, together in order to move "to the > > > roots of our being human together." It seems like a "core" identity > > > question as we move through various historical entanglements seeking > > > answers to ontological questions of self in relation to other. Also > > > looking forward to this type of re-search. > > > > > > Aria > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry > > > xmca-l-bounces+Purss > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:08 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > > > > > Aria, > > > I want to repeat and amplify your suggestion : > > > > > > It is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its > > > analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., liminality, > > > double consciousness, third place, etc.). The post-colonial uptake > > > of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) within the sociocultural > > > theory is a very specific stance and this might be the moment for > > > that > > conversation as well. > > > > > > To focus on the *third space* as a VERY SPECIFIC stance. > > > I would like to become clear on the centrality of *witnessing* as > > > central or the re-search fades away. > > > Also terms such as *mutuality* contrasted with *reciprocity* or > > > *transactions*. > > > > > > Testimonios as neither subjective [alone] or objective [alone] but a > > > hybrid MODE that is a form of witnessing. > > > I would also suggest the theme of *gift* as more than transaction or > > > echange [in continental philosophy traditions] is relevant. > > > > > > There is a *spirit* and a moral virtue within this form of > > > witnessing as *third space* that plays around with notions of > > > *trans* as moving across forms [horizons] as trans-versals [or > trans-verse-als] . > > > I have an intuition that this type of witnessing is radical, going > > > to the roots of our being human together. > > > > > > Aria, I look forward to further re-search Larry > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Aria Razfar wrote: > > > > > > > For those of us working with Kris' sociocritical perspective, > > > > third space has been a valuable construct for thinking about > > > > collective learning zopeds and consciousness for that matter. It > > > > is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its > > > > analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., > > > > liminality, double consciousness, third place, etc.). The > > > > post-colonial uptake of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) > > > > within the sociocultural theory is a very specific stance and this > > > > might be the moment for that conversation as > > > well. > > > > > > > > Aria > > > > > > > > Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > > > > Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of > > > > Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of > > > > Illinois at Chicago > > > > 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > > > > Chicago, IL, 60607 > > > > > > > > Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and > > > > Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org > > > > > > > > Webpage: > > > > http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > > > > Tel: 312-413-8373 > > > > Fax: 312-996-8134 > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kris > > > > Gutierrez > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:56 PM > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > > > > > > > Annalisa, Manuel initiated the last uptake. (I think others have > > > > clarified that now :) > > > > > > > > Mike C., Miguel Zavala, Larry Purss and I posted some thoughts > > > > before the holidays. For me it is useful to connect Manuel?s > > > > recent post to those earlier thoughts/conversations. > > > > > > > > Some very quick very unedited thoughts following up on Manuel?s post: > > > > > > > > Michael G., Mike C. correctly points out that the > > > > testimonios/autobiographies were not research techniques but > > > > generative tools that were indeed a part of the interconnected set > > > > of practices that created a collective zoped?a third space if you > will. > > > > I try to elaborate this idea in the Scribner Lecture piece > > > > (sociocritical literacies). My own work on Third Space, the > > > > collective work of the instructional team of MSI, ongoing > > > > conversations with Mike C. and Yrjo over the years at the lab, and > > > > their work certainly informed this idea of a collective zoped, > > > > collective third space (See Engestr?m, 1987, 1994 in particular; > > > > Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993; Tuomi-Gr?hn & Engestr?m, 2003; Tuomi- > > > > Gr?hn, Engestr?m, & Young, 2003; Chaiklin, 2003, Moll, 1990; Moll > > > > & Greenberg, 1990 as key examples that certainly inform this work > > > > as > > well. > > > And LSV and Bakhtin are ever present). > > > > These, I think, are useful references, all cited in the article. > > > > Shirin Vossoughi?s recent MCA piece also is very relevant to this > > > discussion. > > > > > > > > Some relevant excerpts from the sociocritical article, > > > > > > > > "To illustrate these points and their relation to a collective > > > > Third Space, let us examine the MSLI more closely. > > > > The activity system, the MSLI, has a specific internal logic > > > > organized around expanding the students? sociohistorical and > > > > educational ecology through the collective imagining of a new > > > > educational and sociopolitical future. > > > > To avoid the ?interactional reductionism implicit in much > > > > Vygotskian-inspired research? (Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993, p. 284), > > > > the specific interactions and practices of the MSLI are understood > > > > as what Nicolopoulou and Cole call a ?genuinely collective reality? > > (p. 284). > > > > > > > > Here we see the [Migrant] institute as an example of the Third > > > > Space, a collective zo-ped, at the larger level of activity the > > > > object of which is the sociohistorical reconstruction of what it > > > > means to be a migrant student. > > > > This movement involves a process of becoming conscious ?historical > > > actors? > > > > (Espinoza, 2003) who invoke the past in order to re-mediate it so > > > > that it becomes a resource for current and future action (p. 154)." > > > > > > > > Testimonios and their embodiment in Teatro del Oprimido (Boal?s > > > > Theatre of the Oppressed that Manuel introduced to us and the > > > > program and that he and Vossoughi elaborated) were key means of > > > > developing/inciting a new social and pedagogical imagination and > > > > for imagining new futures with/for the migrant students, their > > > > communities, and indeed for all of us, as Manuel so thoughtfully > > > > writes. Teatro served as a collective problem-solving space?a > > > > space where the playful imagination helped to make inequities and > > > > the roots of social problems visible, while providing an > > > > opportunity to re-frame events, re-mediate and enact an imagined > > > > future collectively (such as flying collectively/social dreaming). > > > > I hope Manuel and Shirin jump in and elaborate these thoughts. > > > > > > > > Re: Research design: For me, Migrant was in Yrjo and Mike's > > > > approach, a formative experiment; what I term social design > > > > experiments?a designed based research approach that foregrounds > > > > equity, diversity, historicity, and re-mediation, for example. As > > > > Susan Jurow and I wrote and presented at the ICLS conference this > > > > summer (a piece that we expect will be part of a larger set of > > > > papers with Mike C., Yrjo and Annalisa, and Bill Penuel), social > > > > design experiments: aim to make possible a sustainable and > > > > dignified life for all humans; address the challenges of > > > > leveraging cultural diversity and reducing social inequality; and > > > > call for the co-design of new tools and futures with members of > > > > non-dominant communities, as but a few key design principles. > > > > > > > > Absolutely, research as re-searching?searching for the answer > > > > to a question you have searched for repeatedly without success! > > > > Well said, Miguel Cole! Thanks, for your thoughts, Michael Glassman! > > > > > > > > more on sociocritical literacies, later. kris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kris Gutierrez > > > > gutierkd@gmail.com > > > > > > > > Kris D. Guti?rrez > > > > Professor > > > > Graduate School of Education > > > > 5629 Tolman Hall #1670 > > > > University of California, Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-1670 > > > > > > > > Distinguished Professor > > > > Learning Sciences and Literacy > > > > School of Education > > > > University of Colorado, Boulder > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 30, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Annalisa Aguilar > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hello! > > > > > > > > > > Sorry for being silly here, but I couldn't help but see that so > > > > > far on > > > > this thread, there have been appearances by: > > > > > > > > > > mike, Annalisa, Michael, Luisa, and Miguel! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 3 09:01:39 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 17:01:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu>, Message-ID: <1420304498782.50212@unm.edu> Hi Greg, You know, I think you are on to something there. As long as there isn't a subsequent Oppression of the Pedagogy of the Oppressors, I think it could work! Kind regards, Annalisa On Jan 3, 2015 9:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. -greg From arazfar@uic.edu Sat Jan 3 09:44:30 2015 From: arazfar@uic.edu (Aria Razfar) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 11:44:30 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: <1420304498782.50212@unm.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu>, <1420304498782.50212@unm.edu> Message-ID: <06c801d0277c$ee71d590$cb5580b0$@uic.edu> Greg and Annalisa, The question you raise, and a point made earlier by Peter, seems to me the outcome of post-colonial literature. This is why there is a need for the "Western intellectual" to "go East." This was the conclusion of Edward Said's "Orientalism" and other post-colonial theorists. Since the time of Napoleon, the "Western intellectual" had been going east, engaged in "subaltern studies" for the purpose of conquest and cultural domination. He/She must now "go East" to hear/listen to the "other" in order to reclaim its self and embrace a pedagogy of "decolonization." If the "Western intellectual" is the oppressor, then "going East" to "hear" is his/her pedagogy. I believe this was at the at the heart of Freire's "Pedagogy of the Oppressed" as well. A pedagogy that is just as "critical" and liberatory for the so called "oppressor" as it is for the so called "oppressed." This is a dialectic missing in today's critical, ethnic, and "subaltern" studies programs. Aria Aria Razfar, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois at Chicago 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 Chicago, IL, 60607 Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd Tel: 312-413-8373 Fax: 312-996-8134 -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2015 11:02 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context Hi Greg, You know, I think you are on to something there. As long as there isn't a subsequent Oppression of the Pedagogy of the Oppressors, I think it could work! Kind regards, Annalisa On Jan 3, 2015 9:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. -greg From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sat Jan 3 10:45:33 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 12:45:33 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: <06c801d0277c$ee71d590$cb5580b0$@uic.edu> References: , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu>, , <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com>, <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu>, , <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu>, , <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu>, , <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu>, , , <1420304498782.50212@unm.edu>, <06c801d0277c$ee71d590$cb5580b0$@uic.edu> Message-ID: Message from Francine: How can you have a dialectic or a discourse with the 'other' (i.e. the so-called Western intellectual) when the rhetoric of postcolonialism, decolonialism, and Orientalism demonizes the West? At the very same time, that ISIL, el Shabbab, Boko Haram, are the oppressors massacring thousands of Christians and Muslims, - and it is the West that has to intervene to save these innocent lives. You are espousing a one way communication in which self-labeled subalterns want to do all the speaking, and have the people they have designated as their oppressors do all the listening. There is also the irony, that the internet is a product of Western technology - wasn't the world wide web designed by the U.S. military? If it is O.K. to use Western 'tools' to undermine the West , then this is not decolonialism but merely culture wars. > From: arazfar@uic.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 11:44:30 -0600 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > Greg and Annalisa, > > The question you raise, and a point made earlier by Peter, seems to me the > outcome of post-colonial literature. This is why there is a need for the > "Western intellectual" to "go East." This was the conclusion of Edward > Said's "Orientalism" and other post-colonial theorists. Since the time of > Napoleon, the "Western intellectual" had been going east, engaged in > "subaltern studies" for the purpose of conquest and cultural domination. > He/She must now "go East" to hear/listen to the "other" in order to reclaim > its self and embrace a pedagogy of "decolonization." If the "Western > intellectual" is the oppressor, then "going East" to "hear" is his/her > pedagogy. I believe this was at the at the heart of Freire's "Pedagogy of > the Oppressed" as well. A pedagogy that is just as "critical" and liberatory > for the so called "oppressor" as it is for the so called "oppressed." This > is a dialectic missing in today's critical, ethnic, and "subaltern" studies > programs. > > Aria > > Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture > Director of Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction > University of Illinois at Chicago > 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > Chicago, IL, 60607 > > Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action > Research (ELMSA) > www.elmsa.org > > Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > Tel: 312-413-8373 > Fax: 312-996-8134 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2015 11:02 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > Hi Greg, > > You know, I think you are on to something there. > > As long as there isn't a subsequent Oppression of the Pedagogy of the > Oppressors, I think it could work! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > On Jan 3, 2015 9:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a > question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" > > Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. > > -greg > > > From arazfar@uic.edu Sat Jan 3 11:21:34 2015 From: arazfar@uic.edu (Aria Razfar) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 13:21:34 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu>, , <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com>, <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu>, , <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu>, , <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu>, , <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu>, , , <1420304498782.50212@unm.edu>, <06c801d0277c$ee71d590$cb5580b0$@uic.edu> Message-ID: <072b01d0278a$7d943760$78bca620$@uic.edu> Francine, "Postcolonialism" and "Orientalism" definitely demonize the West, and self proclaimed "subalterns" do all the speaking and the "West" does all the listening. Decolonialism is the realization that this stance might have been necessary but it clearly isn't sufficient. The cases you mention illustrate that, where so-called "oppressed" become oppressors themselves. I am espousing continued two-way communication and dialectic interaction on more symmetrical grounds. There is no need to undermine "the West" or "save the East" or vice versa. I am imagining the outcome of "going East" for the "Western" intellectual the emergence of a West that see itself as East, and an East that sees itself as West otherwise it is perpetual antagonism and "culture wars" as you describe. I'm not sure about your characterization of the roots of the internet. Aria -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of larry smolucha Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2015 12:46 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context Message from Francine: How can you have a dialectic or a discourse with the 'other' (i.e. the so-called Western intellectual) when the rhetoric of postcolonialism, decolonialism, and Orientalism demonizes the West? At the very same time, that ISIL, el Shabbab, Boko Haram, are the oppressors massacring thousands of Christians and Muslims, - and it is the West that has to intervene to save these innocent lives. You are espousing a one way communication in which self-labeled subalterns want to do all the speaking, and have the people they have designated as their oppressors do all the listening. There is also the irony, that the internet is a product of Western technology - wasn't the world wide web designed by the U.S. military? If it is O.K. to use Western 'tools' to undermine the West , then this is not decolonialism but merely culture wars. > From: arazfar@uic.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 11:44:30 -0600 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > Greg and Annalisa, > > The question you raise, and a point made earlier by Peter, seems to me the > outcome of post-colonial literature. This is why there is a need for the > "Western intellectual" to "go East." This was the conclusion of Edward > Said's "Orientalism" and other post-colonial theorists. Since the time of > Napoleon, the "Western intellectual" had been going east, engaged in > "subaltern studies" for the purpose of conquest and cultural domination. > He/She must now "go East" to hear/listen to the "other" in order to reclaim > its self and embrace a pedagogy of "decolonization." If the "Western > intellectual" is the oppressor, then "going East" to "hear" is his/her > pedagogy. I believe this was at the at the heart of Freire's "Pedagogy of > the Oppressed" as well. A pedagogy that is just as "critical" and liberatory > for the so called "oppressor" as it is for the so called "oppressed." This > is a dialectic missing in today's critical, ethnic, and "subaltern" studies > programs. > > Aria > > Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture > Director of Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction > University of Illinois at Chicago > 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > Chicago, IL, 60607 > > Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action > Research (ELMSA) > www.elmsa.org > > Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > Tel: 312-413-8373 > Fax: 312-996-8134 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2015 11:02 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > Hi Greg, > > You know, I think you are on to something there. > > As long as there isn't a subsequent Oppression of the Pedagogy of the > Oppressors, I think it could work! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > On Jan 3, 2015 9:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a > question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" > > Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. > > -greg > > > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sat Jan 3 11:24:53 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 11:24:53 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> Message-ID: <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> Greg -- that's a great idea. I think is has been done, but without a label. Want to nominate an example? Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Jan 3, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a > question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" > > Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. > > -greg > > On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: > >> Miguel/Mike, >> >> I think we have a testimonio here. We have questions borne out of a >> traumatic historical and social episode (WWII), followed by a movement >> outward "going East," only to discover one's self "Dewey." The self becomes >> an allegory for the whole. It may seem that Spivak is saying translation is >> impossible, but I think a testimonio shows the possibility of translation. >> Thanks for this gift and happy new year! >> >> Aria >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:23 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >> >> I inherited such questions as part of my family history and my coming to >> age during the period of post world war II decolonization, Aria, well >> before I travelled East, as you suggest. Interestingly, it was in going in >> East that I discovered Dewey.... such was the form of education that led to >> my phd. >> >> Concerning misleading translations. >> I have PLENTY of problems with issues of translating Vygotsky, in words >> and in practice! Ask any Russian or scholar whose knowledge of Russian was >> acquired after the age of 20! (Plenty right here on xmca, one I can see >> logged into gmail right now). There is a piece in MCA a while back on the >> perils of translating a key term involving eaching/learning/instruction >> that is part of an ongoing set of questions about the meaning of the term, >> zone of proximal development. >> >> Peter's note with the distinction between decolonial/postcolonial seems to >> pick up on some of the themes that various folks who participated in the >> Migrant program are making. Gotta check out wikipedia on third spaces. The >> metaphor sure has a lot of homes in a lot of discourse communities and I >> suspect that some translation will be needed! >> >> mike >> >> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >> >>> >>> Mike, would you say that you have been seeking answers to these >>> questions by "going East"? I think Spivak would agree with the second >>> question. In "Translating into English" she talks about how >>> "generations of empiricist English translators have missed the point >>> with Marx's philosophical presuppositions, translated 'inhaltslos' as >>> 'slight in content' and thus made nonsense out of the entire >>> discussion of value. You may have had a smiliar experience translating >> Vygotsky. >>> >>> Here it is: >>> >>> http://przeklad.nazwa.pl/schowek/spivak2.pdf >>> >>> Aria >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 1:07 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>> >>> Aria--- I had not read the Spivak article, although the question she >>> asks is one I have been asking myself for half a century. And, I would >>> add, under what conditions? >>> >>> I found the article here in case others share my ignorance. >>> mike >>> >>> http://www.mcgill.ca/files/crclaw-discourse/Can_the_subaltern_speak.pd >>> f >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>> >>>> Larry, >>>> >>>> The specific stance that is amplified by the intersections of "third >>>> space" post-colonial theory, sociocultural theory, and "testimonio" >>>> is somewhat apparent in the language choice. There is no English >>>> equivalent because there cannot be an English equivalent. At least, >>>> there cannot be an "English-Only" equivalent. It represents a >>>> movement toward an indigenous stance on voice, agency, knowledge, >>>> certainty, validity, language choice, and learning. I say a "movement >> toward" >>>> because Spanish itself carries similar baggage especially within the >>>> Latin American context. This is the rationale for why some use the >>>> Aztec idea of Nepantla instead of "Third Space" (e.g., Rochelle >>>> Guiterrez, Gloria Anzaldua). "Testimonio" further complicates what >>>> it means for "subalterns" to "reclaim voice" through the dominant >> voice. >>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>> outside" the inscribed institutional roles, together in order to >>>> move "to the roots of our being human together." Spivak was >>>> specfically critiqueing "the Western intellectual" voice wondering >>>> if it truly could be a tool of liberation. It seems like a "core" >>>> identity question as we move through various historical >>>> entanglements seeking answers to ontological questions of self in >>>> relation to other. Also >>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>> >>>> Aria >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois >>>> at Chicago >>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>> >>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action >>>> Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>> >>>> Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>> >>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>> outside" the inscribed roles, together in order to move "to the >>>> roots of our being human together." It seems like a "core" identity >>>> question as we move through various historical entanglements seeking >>>> answers to ontological questions of self in relation to other. Also >>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>> >>>> Aria >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>> xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry >>>> xmca-l-bounces+Purss >>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:08 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>> >>>> Aria, >>>> I want to repeat and amplify your suggestion : >>>> >>>> It is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., liminality, >>>> double consciousness, third place, etc.). The post-colonial uptake >>>> of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) within the sociocultural >>>> theory is a very specific stance and this might be the moment for >>>> that >>> conversation as well. >>>> >>>> To focus on the *third space* as a VERY SPECIFIC stance. >>>> I would like to become clear on the centrality of *witnessing* as >>>> central or the re-search fades away. >>>> Also terms such as *mutuality* contrasted with *reciprocity* or >>>> *transactions*. >>>> >>>> Testimonios as neither subjective [alone] or objective [alone] but a >>>> hybrid MODE that is a form of witnessing. >>>> I would also suggest the theme of *gift* as more than transaction or >>>> echange [in continental philosophy traditions] is relevant. >>>> >>>> There is a *spirit* and a moral virtue within this form of >>>> witnessing as *third space* that plays around with notions of >>>> *trans* as moving across forms [horizons] as trans-versals [or >> trans-verse-als] . >>>> I have an intuition that this type of witnessing is radical, going >>>> to the roots of our being human together. >>>> >>>> Aria, I look forward to further re-search Larry >>>> >>>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>> >>>>> For those of us working with Kris' sociocritical perspective, >>>>> third space has been a valuable construct for thinking about >>>>> collective learning zopeds and consciousness for that matter. It >>>>> is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., >>>>> liminality, double consciousness, third place, etc.). The >>>>> post-colonial uptake of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) >>>>> within the sociocultural theory is a very specific stance and this >>>>> might be the moment for that conversation as >>>> well. >>>>> >>>>> Aria >>>>> >>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of >>>>> Illinois at Chicago >>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>> >>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and >>>>> Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>> >>>>> Webpage: >>>>> http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kris >>>>> Gutierrez >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:56 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa, Manuel initiated the last uptake. (I think others have >>>>> clarified that now :) >>>>> >>>>> Mike C., Miguel Zavala, Larry Purss and I posted some thoughts >>>>> before the holidays. For me it is useful to connect Manuel?s >>>>> recent post to those earlier thoughts/conversations. >>>>> >>>>> Some very quick very unedited thoughts following up on Manuel?s post: >>>>> >>>>> Michael G., Mike C. correctly points out that the >>>>> testimonios/autobiographies were not research techniques but >>>>> generative tools that were indeed a part of the interconnected set >>>>> of practices that created a collective zoped?a third space if you >> will. >>>>> I try to elaborate this idea in the Scribner Lecture piece >>>>> (sociocritical literacies). My own work on Third Space, the >>>>> collective work of the instructional team of MSI, ongoing >>>>> conversations with Mike C. and Yrjo over the years at the lab, and >>>>> their work certainly informed this idea of a collective zoped, >>>>> collective third space (See Engestr?m, 1987, 1994 in particular; >>>>> Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993; Tuomi-Gr?hn & Engestr?m, 2003; Tuomi- >>>>> Gr?hn, Engestr?m, & Young, 2003; Chaiklin, 2003, Moll, 1990; Moll >>>>> & Greenberg, 1990 as key examples that certainly inform this work >>>>> as >>> well. >>>> And LSV and Bakhtin are ever present). >>>>> These, I think, are useful references, all cited in the article. >>>>> Shirin Vossoughi?s recent MCA piece also is very relevant to this >>>> discussion. >>>>> >>>>> Some relevant excerpts from the sociocritical article, >>>>> >>>>> "To illustrate these points and their relation to a collective >>>>> Third Space, let us examine the MSLI more closely. >>>>> The activity system, the MSLI, has a specific internal logic >>>>> organized around expanding the students? sociohistorical and >>>>> educational ecology through the collective imagining of a new >>>>> educational and sociopolitical future. >>>>> To avoid the ?interactional reductionism implicit in much >>>>> Vygotskian-inspired research? (Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993, p. 284), >>>>> the specific interactions and practices of the MSLI are understood >>>>> as what Nicolopoulou and Cole call a ?genuinely collective reality? >>> (p. 284). >>>>> >>>>> Here we see the [Migrant] institute as an example of the Third >>>>> Space, a collective zo-ped, at the larger level of activity the >>>>> object of which is the sociohistorical reconstruction of what it >>>>> means to be a migrant student. >>>>> This movement involves a process of becoming conscious ?historical >>>> actors? >>>>> (Espinoza, 2003) who invoke the past in order to re-mediate it so >>>>> that it becomes a resource for current and future action (p. 154)." >>>>> >>>>> Testimonios and their embodiment in Teatro del Oprimido (Boal?s >>>>> Theatre of the Oppressed that Manuel introduced to us and the >>>>> program and that he and Vossoughi elaborated) were key means of >>>>> developing/inciting a new social and pedagogical imagination and >>>>> for imagining new futures with/for the migrant students, their >>>>> communities, and indeed for all of us, as Manuel so thoughtfully >>>>> writes. Teatro served as a collective problem-solving space?a >>>>> space where the playful imagination helped to make inequities and >>>>> the roots of social problems visible, while providing an >>>>> opportunity to re-frame events, re-mediate and enact an imagined >>>>> future collectively (such as flying collectively/social dreaming). >>>>> I hope Manuel and Shirin jump in and elaborate these thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> Re: Research design: For me, Migrant was in Yrjo and Mike's >>>>> approach, a formative experiment; what I term social design >>>>> experiments?a designed based research approach that foregrounds >>>>> equity, diversity, historicity, and re-mediation, for example. As >>>>> Susan Jurow and I wrote and presented at the ICLS conference this >>>>> summer (a piece that we expect will be part of a larger set of >>>>> papers with Mike C., Yrjo and Annalisa, and Bill Penuel), social >>>>> design experiments: aim to make possible a sustainable and >>>>> dignified life for all humans; address the challenges of >>>>> leveraging cultural diversity and reducing social inequality; and >>>>> call for the co-design of new tools and futures with members of >>>>> non-dominant communities, as but a few key design principles. >>>>> >>>>> Absolutely, research as re-searching?searching for the answer >>>>> to a question you have searched for repeatedly without success! >>>>> Well said, Miguel Cole! Thanks, for your thoughts, Michael Glassman! >>>>> >>>>> more on sociocritical literacies, later. kris >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Kris Gutierrez >>>>> gutierkd@gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> Kris D. Guti?rrez >>>>> Professor >>>>> Graduate School of Education >>>>> 5629 Tolman Hall #1670 >>>>> University of California, Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-1670 >>>>> >>>>> Distinguished Professor >>>>> Learning Sciences and Literacy >>>>> School of Education >>>>> University of Colorado, Boulder >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello! >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry for being silly here, but I couldn't help but see that so >>>>>> far on >>>>> this thread, there have been appearances by: >>>>>> >>>>>> mike, Annalisa, Michael, Luisa, and Miguel! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From smago@uga.edu Sat Jan 3 11:32:27 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 19:32:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: <072b01d0278a$7d943760$78bca620$@uic.edu> References: , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu>, , <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com>, <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu>, , <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu>, , <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu>, , <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu>, , , <1420304498782.50212@unm.edu>, <06c801d0277c$ee71d590$cb5580b0$@uic.edu> <072b01d0278a$7d943760$78bca620$@uic.edu> Message-ID: The indigenous scholar from whom I heard the term decolonization is Cherokee (N. American tribe). Neither east nor west, which seems a false dichotomy to me. Peter Smagorinsky Distinguished Research Professor of English Education Department of Language and Literacy Education The University of Georgia 315 Aderhold Hall Athens, GA 30602 Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education ????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga Personal twitter account: @psmagorinsky -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Aria Razfar Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2015 2:22 PM To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context Francine, "Postcolonialism" and "Orientalism" definitely demonize the West, and self proclaimed "subalterns" do all the speaking and the "West" does all the listening. Decolonialism is the realization that this stance might have been necessary but it clearly isn't sufficient. The cases you mention illustrate that, where so-called "oppressed" become oppressors themselves. I am espousing continued two-way communication and dialectic interaction on more symmetrical grounds. There is no need to undermine "the West" or "save the East" or vice versa. I am imagining the outcome of "going East" for the "Western" intellectual the emergence of a West that see itself as East, and an East that sees itself as West otherwise it is perpetual antagonism and "culture wars" as you describe. I'm not sure about your characterization of the roots of the internet. Aria -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of larry smolucha Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2015 12:46 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context Message from Francine: How can you have a dialectic or a discourse with the 'other' (i.e. the so-called Western intellectual) when the rhetoric of postcolonialism, decolonialism, and Orientalism demonizes the West? At the very same time, that ISIL, el Shabbab, Boko Haram, are the oppressors massacring thousands of Christians and Muslims, - and it is the West that has to intervene to save these innocent lives. You are espousing a one way communication in which self-labeled subalterns want to do all the speaking, and have the people they have designated as their oppressors do all the listening. There is also the irony, that the internet is a product of Western technology - wasn't the world wide web designed by the U.S. military? If it is O.K. to use Western 'tools' to undermine the West , then this is not decolonialism but merely culture wars. > From: arazfar@uic.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 11:44:30 -0600 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > Greg and Annalisa, > > The question you raise, and a point made earlier by Peter, seems to me > the outcome of post-colonial literature. This is why there is a need > for the "Western intellectual" to "go East." This was the conclusion > of Edward Said's "Orientalism" and other post-colonial theorists. > Since the time of Napoleon, the "Western intellectual" had been going > east, engaged in "subaltern studies" for the purpose of conquest and cultural domination. > He/She must now "go East" to hear/listen to the "other" in order to reclaim > its self and embrace a pedagogy of "decolonization." If the "Western > intellectual" is the oppressor, then "going East" to "hear" is his/her > pedagogy. I believe this was at the at the heart of Freire's "Pedagogy > of the Oppressed" as well. A pedagogy that is just as "critical" and liberatory > for the so called "oppressor" as it is for the so called "oppressed." > This is a dialectic missing in today's critical, ethnic, and "subaltern" studies > programs. > > Aria > > Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of > Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois at > Chicago > 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > Chicago, IL, 60607 > > Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action > Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org > > Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > Tel: 312-413-8373 > Fax: 312-996-8134 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2015 11:02 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > Hi Greg, > > You know, I think you are on to something there. > > As long as there isn't a subsequent Oppression of the Pedagogy of the > Oppressors, I think it could work! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > On Jan 3, 2015 9:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a > question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" > > Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. > > -greg > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Jan 3 12:50:30 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (greg.a.thompson@gmail.com) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 13:50:30 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Helena, I was hoping that others might be able to tell me that this has already been done. Seems like lots of people are in this kind of game but nobody has really talked about it explicitly (as far as I can tell - maybe some whiteness theorists but in a very circumscribed way). and I'm quite certain that no one has deal with it in a sufficiently sophisticated manner to be able to hedge off the kinds of concerns that Francine raises. Anyone have any thoughts? Perhaps this should be a different thread? And yes, Freire has this on his radar but not nearly explicitly enough to where it could be employed I. Some meaningful way in practice. Greg Ps, and yes my comment entirely sidesteps definitional issues of who counts as subaltern or not. That is a huge and mucky issue. But not sure it is worth getting bogged down in it... Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:24 PM, Helena Worthen wrote: > > Greg -- that's a great idea. I think is has been done, but without a label. Want to nominate an example? > > Helena > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > >> On Jan 3, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: >> >> Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a >> question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" >> >> Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. >> >> -greg >> >>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>> >>> Miguel/Mike, >>> >>> I think we have a testimonio here. We have questions borne out of a >>> traumatic historical and social episode (WWII), followed by a movement >>> outward "going East," only to discover one's self "Dewey." The self becomes >>> an allegory for the whole. It may seem that Spivak is saying translation is >>> impossible, but I think a testimonio shows the possibility of translation. >>> Thanks for this gift and happy new year! >>> >>> Aria >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:23 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>> >>> I inherited such questions as part of my family history and my coming to >>> age during the period of post world war II decolonization, Aria, well >>> before I travelled East, as you suggest. Interestingly, it was in going in >>> East that I discovered Dewey.... such was the form of education that led to >>> my phd. >>> >>> Concerning misleading translations. >>> I have PLENTY of problems with issues of translating Vygotsky, in words >>> and in practice! Ask any Russian or scholar whose knowledge of Russian was >>> acquired after the age of 20! (Plenty right here on xmca, one I can see >>> logged into gmail right now). There is a piece in MCA a while back on the >>> perils of translating a key term involving eaching/learning/instruction >>> that is part of an ongoing set of questions about the meaning of the term, >>> zone of proximal development. >>> >>> Peter's note with the distinction between decolonial/postcolonial seems to >>> pick up on some of the themes that various folks who participated in the >>> Migrant program are making. Gotta check out wikipedia on third spaces. The >>> metaphor sure has a lot of homes in a lot of discourse communities and I >>> suspect that some translation will be needed! >>> >>> mike >>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike, would you say that you have been seeking answers to these >>>> questions by "going East"? I think Spivak would agree with the second >>>> question. In "Translating into English" she talks about how >>>> "generations of empiricist English translators have missed the point >>>> with Marx's philosophical presuppositions, translated 'inhaltslos' as >>>> 'slight in content' and thus made nonsense out of the entire >>>> discussion of value. You may have had a smiliar experience translating >>> Vygotsky. >>>> >>>> Here it is: >>>> >>>> http://przeklad.nazwa.pl/schowek/spivak2.pdf >>>> >>>> Aria >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 1:07 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>> >>>> Aria--- I had not read the Spivak article, although the question she >>>> asks is one I have been asking myself for half a century. And, I would >>>> add, under what conditions? >>>> >>>> I found the article here in case others share my ignorance. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> http://www.mcgill.ca/files/crclaw-discourse/Can_the_subaltern_speak.pd >>>> f >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Larry, >>>>> >>>>> The specific stance that is amplified by the intersections of "third >>>>> space" post-colonial theory, sociocultural theory, and "testimonio" >>>>> is somewhat apparent in the language choice. There is no English >>>>> equivalent because there cannot be an English equivalent. At least, >>>>> there cannot be an "English-Only" equivalent. It represents a >>>>> movement toward an indigenous stance on voice, agency, knowledge, >>>>> certainty, validity, language choice, and learning. I say a "movement >>> toward" >>>>> because Spanish itself carries similar baggage especially within the >>>>> Latin American context. This is the rationale for why some use the >>>>> Aztec idea of Nepantla instead of "Third Space" (e.g., Rochelle >>>>> Guiterrez, Gloria Anzaldua). "Testimonio" further complicates what >>>>> it means for "subalterns" to "reclaim voice" through the dominant >>> voice. >>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>>> outside" the inscribed institutional roles, together in order to >>>>> move "to the roots of our being human together." Spivak was >>>>> specfically critiqueing "the Western intellectual" voice wondering >>>>> if it truly could be a tool of liberation. It seems like a "core" >>>>> identity question as we move through various historical >>>>> entanglements seeking answers to ontological questions of self in >>>>> relation to other. Also >>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>>> >>>>> Aria >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois >>>>> at Chicago >>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>> >>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action >>>>> Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>> >>>>> Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>> >>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>>> outside" the inscribed roles, together in order to move "to the >>>>> roots of our being human together." It seems like a "core" identity >>>>> question as we move through various historical entanglements seeking >>>>> answers to ontological questions of self in relation to other. Also >>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>>> >>>>> Aria >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>> xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry >>>>> xmca-l-bounces+Purss >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:08 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>> >>>>> Aria, >>>>> I want to repeat and amplify your suggestion : >>>>> >>>>> It is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., liminality, >>>>> double consciousness, third place, etc.). The post-colonial uptake >>>>> of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) within the sociocultural >>>>> theory is a very specific stance and this might be the moment for >>>>> that >>>> conversation as well. >>>>> >>>>> To focus on the *third space* as a VERY SPECIFIC stance. >>>>> I would like to become clear on the centrality of *witnessing* as >>>>> central or the re-search fades away. >>>>> Also terms such as *mutuality* contrasted with *reciprocity* or >>>>> *transactions*. >>>>> >>>>> Testimonios as neither subjective [alone] or objective [alone] but a >>>>> hybrid MODE that is a form of witnessing. >>>>> I would also suggest the theme of *gift* as more than transaction or >>>>> echange [in continental philosophy traditions] is relevant. >>>>> >>>>> There is a *spirit* and a moral virtue within this form of >>>>> witnessing as *third space* that plays around with notions of >>>>> *trans* as moving across forms [horizons] as trans-versals [or >>> trans-verse-als] . >>>>> I have an intuition that this type of witnessing is radical, going >>>>> to the roots of our being human together. >>>>> >>>>> Aria, I look forward to further re-search Larry >>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> For those of us working with Kris' sociocritical perspective, >>>>>> third space has been a valuable construct for thinking about >>>>>> collective learning zopeds and consciousness for that matter. It >>>>>> is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., >>>>>> liminality, double consciousness, third place, etc.). The >>>>>> post-colonial uptake of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) >>>>>> within the sociocultural theory is a very specific stance and this >>>>>> might be the moment for that conversation as >>>>> well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of >>>>>> Illinois at Chicago >>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>>> >>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and >>>>>> Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Webpage: >>>>>> http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kris >>>>>> Gutierrez >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:56 PM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalisa, Manuel initiated the last uptake. (I think others have >>>>>> clarified that now :) >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike C., Miguel Zavala, Larry Purss and I posted some thoughts >>>>>> before the holidays. For me it is useful to connect Manuel?s >>>>>> recent post to those earlier thoughts/conversations. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some very quick very unedited thoughts following up on Manuel?s post: >>>>>> >>>>>> Michael G., Mike C. correctly points out that the >>>>>> testimonios/autobiographies were not research techniques but >>>>>> generative tools that were indeed a part of the interconnected set >>>>>> of practices that created a collective zoped?a third space if you >>> will. >>>>>> I try to elaborate this idea in the Scribner Lecture piece >>>>>> (sociocritical literacies). My own work on Third Space, the >>>>>> collective work of the instructional team of MSI, ongoing >>>>>> conversations with Mike C. and Yrjo over the years at the lab, and >>>>>> their work certainly informed this idea of a collective zoped, >>>>>> collective third space (See Engestr?m, 1987, 1994 in particular; >>>>>> Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993; Tuomi-Gr?hn & Engestr?m, 2003; Tuomi- >>>>>> Gr?hn, Engestr?m, & Young, 2003; Chaiklin, 2003, Moll, 1990; Moll >>>>>> & Greenberg, 1990 as key examples that certainly inform this work >>>>>> as >>>> well. >>>>> And LSV and Bakhtin are ever present). >>>>>> These, I think, are useful references, all cited in the article. >>>>>> Shirin Vossoughi?s recent MCA piece also is very relevant to this >>>>> discussion. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some relevant excerpts from the sociocritical article, >>>>>> >>>>>> "To illustrate these points and their relation to a collective >>>>>> Third Space, let us examine the MSLI more closely. >>>>>> The activity system, the MSLI, has a specific internal logic >>>>>> organized around expanding the students? sociohistorical and >>>>>> educational ecology through the collective imagining of a new >>>>>> educational and sociopolitical future. >>>>>> To avoid the ?interactional reductionism implicit in much >>>>>> Vygotskian-inspired research? (Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993, p. 284), >>>>>> the specific interactions and practices of the MSLI are understood >>>>>> as what Nicolopoulou and Cole call a ?genuinely collective reality? >>>> (p. 284). >>>>>> >>>>>> Here we see the [Migrant] institute as an example of the Third >>>>>> Space, a collective zo-ped, at the larger level of activity the >>>>>> object of which is the sociohistorical reconstruction of what it >>>>>> means to be a migrant student. >>>>>> This movement involves a process of becoming conscious ?historical >>>>> actors? >>>>>> (Espinoza, 2003) who invoke the past in order to re-mediate it so >>>>>> that it becomes a resource for current and future action (p. 154)." >>>>>> >>>>>> Testimonios and their embodiment in Teatro del Oprimido (Boal?s >>>>>> Theatre of the Oppressed that Manuel introduced to us and the >>>>>> program and that he and Vossoughi elaborated) were key means of >>>>>> developing/inciting a new social and pedagogical imagination and >>>>>> for imagining new futures with/for the migrant students, their >>>>>> communities, and indeed for all of us, as Manuel so thoughtfully >>>>>> writes. Teatro served as a collective problem-solving space?a >>>>>> space where the playful imagination helped to make inequities and >>>>>> the roots of social problems visible, while providing an >>>>>> opportunity to re-frame events, re-mediate and enact an imagined >>>>>> future collectively (such as flying collectively/social dreaming). >>>>>> I hope Manuel and Shirin jump in and elaborate these thoughts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Re: Research design: For me, Migrant was in Yrjo and Mike's >>>>>> approach, a formative experiment; what I term social design >>>>>> experiments?a designed based research approach that foregrounds >>>>>> equity, diversity, historicity, and re-mediation, for example. As >>>>>> Susan Jurow and I wrote and presented at the ICLS conference this >>>>>> summer (a piece that we expect will be part of a larger set of >>>>>> papers with Mike C., Yrjo and Annalisa, and Bill Penuel), social >>>>>> design experiments: aim to make possible a sustainable and >>>>>> dignified life for all humans; address the challenges of >>>>>> leveraging cultural diversity and reducing social inequality; and >>>>>> call for the co-design of new tools and futures with members of >>>>>> non-dominant communities, as but a few key design principles. >>>>>> >>>>>> Absolutely, research as re-searching?searching for the answer >>>>>> to a question you have searched for repeatedly without success! >>>>>> Well said, Miguel Cole! Thanks, for your thoughts, Michael Glassman! >>>>>> >>>>>> more on sociocritical literacies, later. kris >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Kris Gutierrez >>>>>> gutierkd@gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Kris D. Guti?rrez >>>>>> Professor >>>>>> Graduate School of Education >>>>>> 5629 Tolman Hall #1670 >>>>>> University of California, Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-1670 >>>>>> >>>>>> Distinguished Professor >>>>>> Learning Sciences and Literacy >>>>>> School of Education >>>>>> University of Colorado, Boulder >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sorry for being silly here, but I couldn't help but see that so >>>>>>> far on >>>>>> this thread, there have been appearances by: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mike, Annalisa, Michael, Luisa, and Miguel! >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 3 13:15:16 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 21:15:16 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu>, , <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com>, <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu>, , <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu>, , <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu>, , <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu>, , , <1420304498782.50212@unm.edu>, <06c801d0277c$ee71d590$cb5580b0$@uic.edu> <072b01d0278a$7d943760$78bca620$@uic.edu>, Message-ID: <1420319717282.42508@unm.edu> Hello, As I leap into the mosh pit, I'd have to agree that "east/west" is particularly problematic. I was watching the netflix miniseries this past week, "Marco Polo." I must admit my ignorance of the dynasties in China. The manifest trade on the silk road between east and west was, I hope, a fair representation of what happened, even if it is a netflix miniseries. But even if it were misrepresented, it does appear that conquest happened "inside" the eastern borders among ethnic peoples there by none other than Kublai Khan. China's Grand Canal was dug by 4 million peasants over about 1000 years. I sort of doubt they were listened to. But the creation of that canal was that age's "bullet train" and apparently contributed to unification of China. Another Marco Polo documentary produced by Aljazeera was aired recently which I watched as well, and one of the Chinese scholars observed that Marco Polo's news of the cultural advancement of China upon his return at the age of 41 to Venice and after being in China for 24 years, was what inspired European world exploration; that Columbus had a copy of Marco Polo's writing on his person when he sailed to the end of the world under the auspices of Ferdinand and Isabella. Saying "east/west" appears to be misleading, because warring for power and resources happens "north/south" as well. And yet, this doesn't works either, does it? Is it possible that the "idea" of conquest originated in the east with the great Khan? Even the notion of colonialism? Certainly of empire. With this in mind, is it all that productive to essentialize oppression? Oppression wherever it happens is the issue, isn't it? Furthermore, if one wants to know who doesn't feel heard, just ask. Certainly there will be distrust the first time this question is asked, but perhaps if it continues to be asked, there will be established a trust that the other side is willing to listen? Kind regards, Annalisa From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sat Jan 3 13:19:35 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 15:19:35 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: <072b01d0278a$7d943760$78bca620$@uic.edu> References: , , , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu>, , , , <1419961849204.99@unm.edu>, <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com>, , <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu>, , , , <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu>, , , , <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu>, , , , <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu>, , , , , <1420304498782.50212@unm.edu>, , <06c801d0277c$ee71d590$cb5580b0$@uic.edu>, , <072b01d0278a$7d943760$78bca620$@uic.edu> Message-ID: Message from Francine: Aria, I appreciate your definition of decolonialism, but when I look om the internet I find the term used different ways. > From: arazfar@uic.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 13:21:34 -0600 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > Francine, > > "Postcolonialism" and "Orientalism" definitely demonize the West, and self > proclaimed "subalterns" do all the speaking and the "West" does all the > listening. Decolonialism is the realization that this stance might have been > necessary but it clearly isn't sufficient. The cases you mention illustrate > that, where so-called "oppressed" become oppressors themselves. I am > espousing continued two-way communication and dialectic interaction on more > symmetrical grounds. There is no need to undermine "the West" or "save the > East" or vice versa. I am imagining the outcome of "going East" for the > "Western" intellectual the emergence of a West that see itself as East, and > an East that sees itself as West otherwise it is perpetual antagonism and > "culture wars" as you describe. I'm not sure about your characterization of > the roots of the internet. > > Aria > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of larry smolucha > Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2015 12:46 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > Message from Francine: > > How can you have a dialectic or a discourse with the 'other' > (i.e. the so-called Western intellectual) when the rhetoric of > postcolonialism, decolonialism, and Orientalism demonizes the West? > At the very same time, that ISIL, el Shabbab, Boko Haram, are the oppressors > massacring thousands of Christians and Muslims, - and it is the West that > has to intervene to save these innocent lives. > > You are espousing a one way communication in which self-labeled subalterns > want to do all the speaking, and have the people they have designated as > their oppressors do all the listening. > > There is also the irony, that the internet is a product of Western > technology > - wasn't the world wide web designed by the U.S. military? If it is O.K. to > use Western 'tools' to undermine the West , then this is not decolonialism > but merely culture wars. > > > > > From: arazfar@uic.edu > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 11:44:30 -0600 > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > > > Greg and Annalisa, > > > > The question you raise, and a point made earlier by Peter, seems to me the > > outcome of post-colonial literature. This is why there is a need for the > > "Western intellectual" to "go East." This was the conclusion of Edward > > Said's "Orientalism" and other post-colonial theorists. Since the time of > > Napoleon, the "Western intellectual" had been going east, engaged in > > "subaltern studies" for the purpose of conquest and cultural domination. > > He/She must now "go East" to hear/listen to the "other" in order to > reclaim > > its self and embrace a pedagogy of "decolonization." If the "Western > > intellectual" is the oppressor, then "going East" to "hear" is his/her > > pedagogy. I believe this was at the at the heart of Freire's "Pedagogy of > > the Oppressed" as well. A pedagogy that is just as "critical" and > liberatory > > for the so called "oppressor" as it is for the so called "oppressed." This > > is a dialectic missing in today's critical, ethnic, and "subaltern" > studies > > programs. > > > > Aria > > > > Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture > > Director of Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > > Chicago, IL, 60607 > > > > Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action > > Research (ELMSA) > > www.elmsa.org > > > > Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > > Tel: 312-413-8373 > > Fax: 312-996-8134 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > > Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2015 11:02 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > > > Hi Greg, > > > > You know, I think you are on to something there. > > > > As long as there isn't a subsequent Oppression of the Pedagogy of the > > Oppressors, I think it could work! > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > On Jan 3, 2015 9:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > > > Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a > > question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" > > > > Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > From arazfar@uic.edu Sat Jan 3 13:31:07 2015 From: arazfar@uic.edu (Aria Razfar) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 15:31:07 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu>, , , , <1419961849204.99@unm.edu>, <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com>, , <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu>, , , , <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu>, , , , <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu>, , , , <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu>, , , , , <1420304498782.50212@unm.edu>, , <06c801d0277c$ee71d590$cb5580b0$@uic.edu>, ! , <072b01d0278a$7d94376 0$78bca620$@uic.edu> Message-ID: <077501d0279c$96c68b40$c453a1c0$@uic.edu> Francine, Yes, there is variation in the definitions. The stance I had in mind was an indigenous one like the one articulated by Peter. Aria -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of larry smolucha Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2015 3:20 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context Message from Francine: Aria, I appreciate your definition of decolonialism, but when I look om the internet I find the term used different ways. > From: arazfar@uic.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 13:21:34 -0600 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > Francine, > > "Postcolonialism" and "Orientalism" definitely demonize the West, and > self proclaimed "subalterns" do all the speaking and the "West" does > all the listening. Decolonialism is the realization that this stance > might have been necessary but it clearly isn't sufficient. The cases > you mention illustrate that, where so-called "oppressed" become > oppressors themselves. I am espousing continued two-way communication > and dialectic interaction on more symmetrical grounds. There is no > need to undermine "the West" or "save the East" or vice versa. I am > imagining the outcome of "going East" for the "Western" intellectual > the emergence of a West that see itself as East, and an East that sees > itself as West otherwise it is perpetual antagonism and "culture wars" > as you describe. I'm not sure about your characterization of the roots of the internet. > > Aria > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of larry smolucha > Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2015 12:46 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > Message from Francine: > > How can you have a dialectic or a discourse with the 'other' > (i.e. the so-called Western intellectual) when the rhetoric of > postcolonialism, decolonialism, and Orientalism demonizes the West? > At the very same time, that ISIL, el Shabbab, Boko Haram, are the > oppressors massacring thousands of Christians and Muslims, - and it is > the West that has to intervene to save these innocent lives. > > You are espousing a one way communication in which self-labeled > subalterns want to do all the speaking, and have the people they have > designated as their oppressors do all the listening. > > There is also the irony, that the internet is a product of Western > technology > - wasn't the world wide web designed by the U.S. military? If it is > O.K. to use Western 'tools' to undermine the West , then this is not > decolonialism but merely culture wars. > > > > > From: arazfar@uic.edu > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 11:44:30 -0600 > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > > > Greg and Annalisa, > > > > The question you raise, and a point made earlier by Peter, seems to > > me the outcome of post-colonial literature. This is why there is a > > need for the "Western intellectual" to "go East." This was the > > conclusion of Edward Said's "Orientalism" and other post-colonial > > theorists. Since the time of Napoleon, the "Western intellectual" > > had been going east, engaged in "subaltern studies" for the purpose of conquest and cultural domination. > > He/She must now "go East" to hear/listen to the "other" in order to > reclaim > > its self and embrace a pedagogy of "decolonization." If the "Western > > intellectual" is the oppressor, then "going East" to "hear" is > > his/her pedagogy. I believe this was at the at the heart of Freire's > > "Pedagogy of the Oppressed" as well. A pedagogy that is just as > > "critical" and > liberatory > > for the so called "oppressor" as it is for the so called > > "oppressed." This is a dialectic missing in today's critical, ethnic, and "subaltern" > studies > > programs. > > > > Aria > > > > Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of > > Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois > > at Chicago > > 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > > Chicago, IL, 60607 > > > > Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action > > Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org > > > > Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > > Tel: 312-413-8373 > > Fax: 312-996-8134 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa > > Aguilar > > Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2015 11:02 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > > > Hi Greg, > > > > You know, I think you are on to something there. > > > > As long as there isn't a subsequent Oppression of the Pedagogy of > > the Oppressors, I think it could work! > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > On Jan 3, 2015 9:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > > > Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much > > a question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" > > > > Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sat Jan 3 13:33:29 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 13:33:29 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <84DC9627-CD2A-4017-A4E7-5AE9ED43883F@gmail.com> Hello, I would say that there are many "pedagogies of the oppressor" out there, being applied and practiced right now. Whatever is the pedagogy that fails 50% of high school students would be an example. Jean Lave wrote about it for MCA (it's not the main point of her article, but she says this clearly): Lave, J. 1996. Teaching, as Learning, in Practice. Mind, Culture and Activity: An International Journal. Vol 3 No 3 pp 149-164 Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:50 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > Helena, > I was hoping that others might be able to tell me that this has already been done. Seems like lots of people are in this kind of game but nobody has really talked about it explicitly (as far as I can tell - maybe some whiteness theorists but in a very circumscribed way). and I'm quite certain that no one has deal with it in a sufficiently sophisticated manner to be able to hedge off the kinds of concerns that Francine raises. > Anyone have any thoughts? Perhaps this should be a different thread? > And yes, Freire has this on his radar but not nearly explicitly enough to where it could be employed I. Some meaningful way in practice. > Greg > Ps, and yes my comment entirely sidesteps definitional issues of who counts as subaltern or not. That is a huge and mucky issue. But not sure it is worth getting bogged down in it... > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:24 PM, Helena Worthen wrote: >> >> Greg -- that's a great idea. I think is has been done, but without a label. Want to nominate an example? >> >> Helena >> >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> >>> On Jan 3, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: >>> >>> Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a >>> question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" >>> >>> Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. >>> >>> -greg >>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>> >>>> Miguel/Mike, >>>> >>>> I think we have a testimonio here. We have questions borne out of a >>>> traumatic historical and social episode (WWII), followed by a movement >>>> outward "going East," only to discover one's self "Dewey." The self becomes >>>> an allegory for the whole. It may seem that Spivak is saying translation is >>>> impossible, but I think a testimonio shows the possibility of translation. >>>> Thanks for this gift and happy new year! >>>> >>>> Aria >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:23 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>> >>>> I inherited such questions as part of my family history and my coming to >>>> age during the period of post world war II decolonization, Aria, well >>>> before I travelled East, as you suggest. Interestingly, it was in going in >>>> East that I discovered Dewey.... such was the form of education that led to >>>> my phd. >>>> >>>> Concerning misleading translations. >>>> I have PLENTY of problems with issues of translating Vygotsky, in words >>>> and in practice! Ask any Russian or scholar whose knowledge of Russian was >>>> acquired after the age of 20! (Plenty right here on xmca, one I can see >>>> logged into gmail right now). There is a piece in MCA a while back on the >>>> perils of translating a key term involving eaching/learning/instruction >>>> that is part of an ongoing set of questions about the meaning of the term, >>>> zone of proximal development. >>>> >>>> Peter's note with the distinction between decolonial/postcolonial seems to >>>> pick up on some of the themes that various folks who participated in the >>>> Migrant program are making. Gotta check out wikipedia on third spaces. The >>>> metaphor sure has a lot of homes in a lot of discourse communities and I >>>> suspect that some translation will be needed! >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike, would you say that you have been seeking answers to these >>>>> questions by "going East"? I think Spivak would agree with the second >>>>> question. In "Translating into English" she talks about how >>>>> "generations of empiricist English translators have missed the point >>>>> with Marx's philosophical presuppositions, translated 'inhaltslos' as >>>>> 'slight in content' and thus made nonsense out of the entire >>>>> discussion of value. You may have had a smiliar experience translating >>>> Vygotsky. >>>>> >>>>> Here it is: >>>>> >>>>> http://przeklad.nazwa.pl/schowek/spivak2.pdf >>>>> >>>>> Aria >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 1:07 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>> >>>>> Aria--- I had not read the Spivak article, although the question she >>>>> asks is one I have been asking myself for half a century. And, I would >>>>> add, under what conditions? >>>>> >>>>> I found the article here in case others share my ignorance. >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> http://www.mcgill.ca/files/crclaw-discourse/Can_the_subaltern_speak.pd >>>>> f >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Larry, >>>>>> >>>>>> The specific stance that is amplified by the intersections of "third >>>>>> space" post-colonial theory, sociocultural theory, and "testimonio" >>>>>> is somewhat apparent in the language choice. There is no English >>>>>> equivalent because there cannot be an English equivalent. At least, >>>>>> there cannot be an "English-Only" equivalent. It represents a >>>>>> movement toward an indigenous stance on voice, agency, knowledge, >>>>>> certainty, validity, language choice, and learning. I say a "movement >>>> toward" >>>>>> because Spanish itself carries similar baggage especially within the >>>>>> Latin American context. This is the rationale for why some use the >>>>>> Aztec idea of Nepantla instead of "Third Space" (e.g., Rochelle >>>>>> Guiterrez, Gloria Anzaldua). "Testimonio" further complicates what >>>>>> it means for "subalterns" to "reclaim voice" through the dominant >>>> voice. >>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>>>> outside" the inscribed institutional roles, together in order to >>>>>> move "to the roots of our being human together." Spivak was >>>>>> specfically critiqueing "the Western intellectual" voice wondering >>>>>> if it truly could be a tool of liberation. It seems like a "core" >>>>>> identity question as we move through various historical >>>>>> entanglements seeking answers to ontological questions of self in >>>>>> relation to other. Also >>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois >>>>>> at Chicago >>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>>> >>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action >>>>>> Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>>> >>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>>>> outside" the inscribed roles, together in order to move "to the >>>>>> roots of our being human together." It seems like a "core" identity >>>>>> question as we move through various historical entanglements seeking >>>>>> answers to ontological questions of self in relation to other. Also >>>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+Purss >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:08 PM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria, >>>>>> I want to repeat and amplify your suggestion : >>>>>> >>>>>> It is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., liminality, >>>>>> double consciousness, third place, etc.). The post-colonial uptake >>>>>> of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) within the sociocultural >>>>>> theory is a very specific stance and this might be the moment for >>>>>> that >>>>> conversation as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> To focus on the *third space* as a VERY SPECIFIC stance. >>>>>> I would like to become clear on the centrality of *witnessing* as >>>>>> central or the re-search fades away. >>>>>> Also terms such as *mutuality* contrasted with *reciprocity* or >>>>>> *transactions*. >>>>>> >>>>>> Testimonios as neither subjective [alone] or objective [alone] but a >>>>>> hybrid MODE that is a form of witnessing. >>>>>> I would also suggest the theme of *gift* as more than transaction or >>>>>> echange [in continental philosophy traditions] is relevant. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is a *spirit* and a moral virtue within this form of >>>>>> witnessing as *third space* that plays around with notions of >>>>>> *trans* as moving across forms [horizons] as trans-versals [or >>>> trans-verse-als] . >>>>>> I have an intuition that this type of witnessing is radical, going >>>>>> to the roots of our being human together. >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria, I look forward to further re-search Larry >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For those of us working with Kris' sociocritical perspective, >>>>>>> third space has been a valuable construct for thinking about >>>>>>> collective learning zopeds and consciousness for that matter. It >>>>>>> is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., >>>>>>> liminality, double consciousness, third place, etc.). The >>>>>>> post-colonial uptake of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) >>>>>>> within the sociocultural theory is a very specific stance and this >>>>>>> might be the moment for that conversation as >>>>>> well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of >>>>>>> Illinois at Chicago >>>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and >>>>>>> Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Webpage: >>>>>>> http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kris >>>>>>> Gutierrez >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:56 PM >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Annalisa, Manuel initiated the last uptake. (I think others have >>>>>>> clarified that now :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike C., Miguel Zavala, Larry Purss and I posted some thoughts >>>>>>> before the holidays. For me it is useful to connect Manuel?s >>>>>>> recent post to those earlier thoughts/conversations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some very quick very unedited thoughts following up on Manuel?s post: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Michael G., Mike C. correctly points out that the >>>>>>> testimonios/autobiographies were not research techniques but >>>>>>> generative tools that were indeed a part of the interconnected set >>>>>>> of practices that created a collective zoped?a third space if you >>>> will. >>>>>>> I try to elaborate this idea in the Scribner Lecture piece >>>>>>> (sociocritical literacies). My own work on Third Space, the >>>>>>> collective work of the instructional team of MSI, ongoing >>>>>>> conversations with Mike C. and Yrjo over the years at the lab, and >>>>>>> their work certainly informed this idea of a collective zoped, >>>>>>> collective third space (See Engestr?m, 1987, 1994 in particular; >>>>>>> Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993; Tuomi-Gr?hn & Engestr?m, 2003; Tuomi- >>>>>>> Gr?hn, Engestr?m, & Young, 2003; Chaiklin, 2003, Moll, 1990; Moll >>>>>>> & Greenberg, 1990 as key examples that certainly inform this work >>>>>>> as >>>>> well. >>>>>> And LSV and Bakhtin are ever present). >>>>>>> These, I think, are useful references, all cited in the article. >>>>>>> Shirin Vossoughi?s recent MCA piece also is very relevant to this >>>>>> discussion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some relevant excerpts from the sociocritical article, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "To illustrate these points and their relation to a collective >>>>>>> Third Space, let us examine the MSLI more closely. >>>>>>> The activity system, the MSLI, has a specific internal logic >>>>>>> organized around expanding the students? sociohistorical and >>>>>>> educational ecology through the collective imagining of a new >>>>>>> educational and sociopolitical future. >>>>>>> To avoid the ?interactional reductionism implicit in much >>>>>>> Vygotskian-inspired research? (Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993, p. 284), >>>>>>> the specific interactions and practices of the MSLI are understood >>>>>>> as what Nicolopoulou and Cole call a ?genuinely collective reality? >>>>> (p. 284). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here we see the [Migrant] institute as an example of the Third >>>>>>> Space, a collective zo-ped, at the larger level of activity the >>>>>>> object of which is the sociohistorical reconstruction of what it >>>>>>> means to be a migrant student. >>>>>>> This movement involves a process of becoming conscious ?historical >>>>>> actors? >>>>>>> (Espinoza, 2003) who invoke the past in order to re-mediate it so >>>>>>> that it becomes a resource for current and future action (p. 154)." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Testimonios and their embodiment in Teatro del Oprimido (Boal?s >>>>>>> Theatre of the Oppressed that Manuel introduced to us and the >>>>>>> program and that he and Vossoughi elaborated) were key means of >>>>>>> developing/inciting a new social and pedagogical imagination and >>>>>>> for imagining new futures with/for the migrant students, their >>>>>>> communities, and indeed for all of us, as Manuel so thoughtfully >>>>>>> writes. Teatro served as a collective problem-solving space?a >>>>>>> space where the playful imagination helped to make inequities and >>>>>>> the roots of social problems visible, while providing an >>>>>>> opportunity to re-frame events, re-mediate and enact an imagined >>>>>>> future collectively (such as flying collectively/social dreaming). >>>>>>> I hope Manuel and Shirin jump in and elaborate these thoughts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Re: Research design: For me, Migrant was in Yrjo and Mike's >>>>>>> approach, a formative experiment; what I term social design >>>>>>> experiments?a designed based research approach that foregrounds >>>>>>> equity, diversity, historicity, and re-mediation, for example. As >>>>>>> Susan Jurow and I wrote and presented at the ICLS conference this >>>>>>> summer (a piece that we expect will be part of a larger set of >>>>>>> papers with Mike C., Yrjo and Annalisa, and Bill Penuel), social >>>>>>> design experiments: aim to make possible a sustainable and >>>>>>> dignified life for all humans; address the challenges of >>>>>>> leveraging cultural diversity and reducing social inequality; and >>>>>>> call for the co-design of new tools and futures with members of >>>>>>> non-dominant communities, as but a few key design principles. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Absolutely, research as re-searching?searching for the answer >>>>>>> to a question you have searched for repeatedly without success! >>>>>>> Well said, Miguel Cole! Thanks, for your thoughts, Michael Glassman! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> more on sociocritical literacies, later. kris >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kris Gutierrez >>>>>>> gutierkd@gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kris D. Guti?rrez >>>>>>> Professor >>>>>>> Graduate School of Education >>>>>>> 5629 Tolman Hall #1670 >>>>>>> University of California, Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-1670 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Distinguished Professor >>>>>>> Learning Sciences and Literacy >>>>>>> School of Education >>>>>>> University of Colorado, Boulder >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sorry for being silly here, but I couldn't help but see that so >>>>>>>> far on >>>>>>> this thread, there have been appearances by: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mike, Annalisa, Michael, Luisa, and Miguel! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jan 3 13:37:10 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 13:37:10 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Martin's chapter 4 [page 95] *hermeneutics and the project for a human science* may contribute something general to *living in truth* that is never objective, but always prejudiced or preconceived. Martin, commenting on Gadamer's "philosophical hermeneutics [in contrast to Romantic hermeneutics], references Bernstein: There are some forms of prejudice that we must have the courage to confront - such as racism or sexism. But our preconceptions are our involvement in history, our participation in traditional cultural practices. They "have a threefold temporal character - they are handed down to us through tradition; - they are constitutive of what we are now (and are in the process of becoming); - and they are anticipatory - always OPEN to future testing and transformation. Our preconceptions set limits beyond which we DO NOT SEE, but they are not fixed and we are constantly testing them. One important way we test our preconceptions [prejudices] is THROUGH encounters with other people. On page 94 Martin explores the notion of *truth*. Gadamer points out there is no objective foolproof method leading to *truth*. But Gadamer did NOT believe there was NO truth. We need to think differently about *truth*: A true interpretation IS one which points out something RELEVANT in our present situation that we had not noticed. Therefore *truth* is an encounter with the other that is relevant to our current prejudices and preconceptions. To *live in truth* requires re-search such as testimonio [not research as objective truth]. Others may consider this approach itself as too *romantic* but it does explore ways of arriving at a fusion of horizons [both fusion and tension] that includes critique and confronting our inevitable prejudices in a dialogical *spirit* of *hearing each other into voice*. Is this hopelessly optimistic and obscure or is it possibly relevant to overcoming prejudices? No demonizing the other but still honouring relevant *truth* Larry On Sat, Jan 3, 2015 at 12:50 PM, wrote: > Helena, > I was hoping that others might be able to tell me that this has already > been done. Seems like lots of people are in this kind of game but nobody > has really talked about it explicitly (as far as I can tell - maybe some > whiteness theorists but in a very circumscribed way). and I'm quite certain > that no one has deal with it in a sufficiently sophisticated manner to be > able to hedge off the kinds of concerns that Francine raises. > Anyone have any thoughts? Perhaps this should be a different thread? > And yes, Freire has this on his radar but not nearly explicitly enough to > where it could be employed I. Some meaningful way in practice. > Greg > Ps, and yes my comment entirely sidesteps definitional issues of who > counts as subaltern or not. That is a huge and mucky issue. But not sure > it is worth getting bogged down in it... > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:24 PM, Helena Worthen > wrote: > > > > Greg -- that's a great idea. I think is has been done, but without a > label. Want to nominate an example? > > > > Helena > > > > > > Helena Worthen > > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > > >> On Jan 3, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >> > >> Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a > >> question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" > >> > >> Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. > >> > >> -greg > >> > >>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: > >>> > >>> Miguel/Mike, > >>> > >>> I think we have a testimonio here. We have questions borne out of a > >>> traumatic historical and social episode (WWII), followed by a movement > >>> outward "going East," only to discover one's self "Dewey." The self > becomes > >>> an allegory for the whole. It may seem that Spivak is saying > translation is > >>> impossible, but I think a testimonio shows the possibility of > translation. > >>> Thanks for this gift and happy new year! > >>> > >>> Aria > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:23 PM > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>> > >>> I inherited such questions as part of my family history and my coming > to > >>> age during the period of post world war II decolonization, Aria, well > >>> before I travelled East, as you suggest. Interestingly, it was in > going in > >>> East that I discovered Dewey.... such was the form of education that > led to > >>> my phd. > >>> > >>> Concerning misleading translations. > >>> I have PLENTY of problems with issues of translating Vygotsky, in words > >>> and in practice! Ask any Russian or scholar whose knowledge of Russian > was > >>> acquired after the age of 20! (Plenty right here on xmca, one I can see > >>> logged into gmail right now). There is a piece in MCA a while back on > the > >>> perils of translating a key term involving eaching/learning/instruction > >>> that is part of an ongoing set of questions about the meaning of the > term, > >>> zone of proximal development. > >>> > >>> Peter's note with the distinction between decolonial/postcolonial > seems to > >>> pick up on some of the themes that various folks who participated in > the > >>> Migrant program are making. Gotta check out wikipedia on third > spaces. The > >>> metaphor sure has a lot of homes in a lot of discourse communities and > I > >>> suspect that some translation will be needed! > >>> > >>> mike > >>> > >>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Aria Razfar > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Mike, would you say that you have been seeking answers to these > >>>> questions by "going East"? I think Spivak would agree with the second > >>>> question. In "Translating into English" she talks about how > >>>> "generations of empiricist English translators have missed the point > >>>> with Marx's philosophical presuppositions, translated 'inhaltslos' as > >>>> 'slight in content' and thus made nonsense out of the entire > >>>> discussion of value. You may have had a smiliar experience translating > >>> Vygotsky. > >>>> > >>>> Here it is: > >>>> > >>>> http://przeklad.nazwa.pl/schowek/spivak2.pdf > >>>> > >>>> Aria > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 1:07 PM > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>> > >>>> Aria--- I had not read the Spivak article, although the question she > >>>> asks is one I have been asking myself for half a century. And, I would > >>>> add, under what conditions? > >>>> > >>>> I found the article here in case others share my ignorance. > >>>> mike > >>>> > >>>> > http://www.mcgill.ca/files/crclaw-discourse/Can_the_subaltern_speak.pd > >>>> f > >>>> > >>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Aria Razfar > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Larry, > >>>>> > >>>>> The specific stance that is amplified by the intersections of "third > >>>>> space" post-colonial theory, sociocultural theory, and "testimonio" > >>>>> is somewhat apparent in the language choice. There is no English > >>>>> equivalent because there cannot be an English equivalent. At least, > >>>>> there cannot be an "English-Only" equivalent. It represents a > >>>>> movement toward an indigenous stance on voice, agency, knowledge, > >>>>> certainty, validity, language choice, and learning. I say a "movement > >>> toward" > >>>>> because Spanish itself carries similar baggage especially within the > >>>>> Latin American context. This is the rationale for why some use the > >>>>> Aztec idea of Nepantla instead of "Third Space" (e.g., Rochelle > >>>>> Guiterrez, Gloria Anzaldua). "Testimonio" further complicates what > >>>>> it means for "subalterns" to "reclaim voice" through the dominant > >>> voice. > >>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the > >>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step > >>>>> outside" the inscribed institutional roles, together in order to > >>>>> move "to the roots of our being human together." Spivak was > >>>>> specfically critiqueing "the Western intellectual" voice wondering > >>>>> if it truly could be a tool of liberation. It seems like a "core" > >>>>> identity question as we move through various historical > >>>>> entanglements seeking answers to ontological questions of self in > >>>>> relation to other. Also > >>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. > >>>>> > >>>>> Aria > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > >>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of > >>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois > >>>>> at Chicago > >>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > >>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 > >>>>> > >>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action > >>>>> Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org > >>>>> > >>>>> Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > >>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 > >>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 > >>>>> > >>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the > >>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step > >>>>> outside" the inscribed roles, together in order to move "to the > >>>>> roots of our being human together." It seems like a "core" identity > >>>>> question as we move through various historical entanglements seeking > >>>>> answers to ontological questions of self in relation to other. Also > >>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. > >>>>> > >>>>> Aria > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>>>> xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry > >>>>> xmca-l-bounces+Purss > >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:08 PM > >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>>> > >>>>> Aria, > >>>>> I want to repeat and amplify your suggestion : > >>>>> > >>>>> It is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its > >>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., liminality, > >>>>> double consciousness, third place, etc.). The post-colonial uptake > >>>>> of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) within the sociocultural > >>>>> theory is a very specific stance and this might be the moment for > >>>>> that > >>>> conversation as well. > >>>>> > >>>>> To focus on the *third space* as a VERY SPECIFIC stance. > >>>>> I would like to become clear on the centrality of *witnessing* as > >>>>> central or the re-search fades away. > >>>>> Also terms such as *mutuality* contrasted with *reciprocity* or > >>>>> *transactions*. > >>>>> > >>>>> Testimonios as neither subjective [alone] or objective [alone] but a > >>>>> hybrid MODE that is a form of witnessing. > >>>>> I would also suggest the theme of *gift* as more than transaction or > >>>>> echange [in continental philosophy traditions] is relevant. > >>>>> > >>>>> There is a *spirit* and a moral virtue within this form of > >>>>> witnessing as *third space* that plays around with notions of > >>>>> *trans* as moving across forms [horizons] as trans-versals [or > >>> trans-verse-als] . > >>>>> I have an intuition that this type of witnessing is radical, going > >>>>> to the roots of our being human together. > >>>>> > >>>>> Aria, I look forward to further re-search Larry > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Aria Razfar > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> For those of us working with Kris' sociocritical perspective, > >>>>>> third space has been a valuable construct for thinking about > >>>>>> collective learning zopeds and consciousness for that matter. It > >>>>>> is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its > >>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., > >>>>>> liminality, double consciousness, third place, etc.). The > >>>>>> post-colonial uptake of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) > >>>>>> within the sociocultural theory is a very specific stance and this > >>>>>> might be the moment for that conversation as > >>>>> well. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Aria > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > >>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of > >>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of > >>>>>> Illinois at Chicago > >>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > >>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and > >>>>>> Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Webpage: > >>>>>> http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > >>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 > >>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kris > >>>>>> Gutierrez > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:56 PM > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Annalisa, Manuel initiated the last uptake. (I think others have > >>>>>> clarified that now :) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mike C., Miguel Zavala, Larry Purss and I posted some thoughts > >>>>>> before the holidays. For me it is useful to connect Manuel?s > >>>>>> recent post to those earlier thoughts/conversations. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Some very quick very unedited thoughts following up on Manuel?s > post: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Michael G., Mike C. correctly points out that the > >>>>>> testimonios/autobiographies were not research techniques but > >>>>>> generative tools that were indeed a part of the interconnected set > >>>>>> of practices that created a collective zoped?a third space if you > >>> will. > >>>>>> I try to elaborate this idea in the Scribner Lecture piece > >>>>>> (sociocritical literacies). My own work on Third Space, the > >>>>>> collective work of the instructional team of MSI, ongoing > >>>>>> conversations with Mike C. and Yrjo over the years at the lab, and > >>>>>> their work certainly informed this idea of a collective zoped, > >>>>>> collective third space (See Engestr?m, 1987, 1994 in particular; > >>>>>> Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993; Tuomi-Gr?hn & Engestr?m, 2003; Tuomi- > >>>>>> Gr?hn, Engestr?m, & Young, 2003; Chaiklin, 2003, Moll, 1990; Moll > >>>>>> & Greenberg, 1990 as key examples that certainly inform this work > >>>>>> as > >>>> well. > >>>>> And LSV and Bakhtin are ever present). > >>>>>> These, I think, are useful references, all cited in the article. > >>>>>> Shirin Vossoughi?s recent MCA piece also is very relevant to this > >>>>> discussion. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Some relevant excerpts from the sociocritical article, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "To illustrate these points and their relation to a collective > >>>>>> Third Space, let us examine the MSLI more closely. > >>>>>> The activity system, the MSLI, has a specific internal logic > >>>>>> organized around expanding the students? sociohistorical and > >>>>>> educational ecology through the collective imagining of a new > >>>>>> educational and sociopolitical future. > >>>>>> To avoid the ?interactional reductionism implicit in much > >>>>>> Vygotskian-inspired research? (Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993, p. 284), > >>>>>> the specific interactions and practices of the MSLI are understood > >>>>>> as what Nicolopoulou and Cole call a ?genuinely collective reality? > >>>> (p. 284). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Here we see the [Migrant] institute as an example of the Third > >>>>>> Space, a collective zo-ped, at the larger level of activity the > >>>>>> object of which is the sociohistorical reconstruction of what it > >>>>>> means to be a migrant student. > >>>>>> This movement involves a process of becoming conscious ?historical > >>>>> actors? > >>>>>> (Espinoza, 2003) who invoke the past in order to re-mediate it so > >>>>>> that it becomes a resource for current and future action (p. 154)." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Testimonios and their embodiment in Teatro del Oprimido (Boal?s > >>>>>> Theatre of the Oppressed that Manuel introduced to us and the > >>>>>> program and that he and Vossoughi elaborated) were key means of > >>>>>> developing/inciting a new social and pedagogical imagination and > >>>>>> for imagining new futures with/for the migrant students, their > >>>>>> communities, and indeed for all of us, as Manuel so thoughtfully > >>>>>> writes. Teatro served as a collective problem-solving space?a > >>>>>> space where the playful imagination helped to make inequities and > >>>>>> the roots of social problems visible, while providing an > >>>>>> opportunity to re-frame events, re-mediate and enact an imagined > >>>>>> future collectively (such as flying collectively/social dreaming). > >>>>>> I hope Manuel and Shirin jump in and elaborate these thoughts. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Re: Research design: For me, Migrant was in Yrjo and Mike's > >>>>>> approach, a formative experiment; what I term social design > >>>>>> experiments?a designed based research approach that foregrounds > >>>>>> equity, diversity, historicity, and re-mediation, for example. As > >>>>>> Susan Jurow and I wrote and presented at the ICLS conference this > >>>>>> summer (a piece that we expect will be part of a larger set of > >>>>>> papers with Mike C., Yrjo and Annalisa, and Bill Penuel), social > >>>>>> design experiments: aim to make possible a sustainable and > >>>>>> dignified life for all humans; address the challenges of > >>>>>> leveraging cultural diversity and reducing social inequality; and > >>>>>> call for the co-design of new tools and futures with members of > >>>>>> non-dominant communities, as but a few key design principles. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Absolutely, research as re-searching?searching for the answer > >>>>>> to a question you have searched for repeatedly without success! > >>>>>> Well said, Miguel Cole! Thanks, for your thoughts, Michael Glassman! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> more on sociocritical literacies, later. kris > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Kris Gutierrez > >>>>>> gutierkd@gmail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Kris D. Guti?rrez > >>>>>> Professor > >>>>>> Graduate School of Education > >>>>>> 5629 Tolman Hall #1670 > >>>>>> University of California, Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-1670 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Distinguished Professor > >>>>>> Learning Sciences and Literacy > >>>>>> School of Education > >>>>>> University of Colorado, Boulder > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Annalisa Aguilar > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hello! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Sorry for being silly here, but I couldn't help but see that so > >>>>>>> far on > >>>>>> this thread, there have been appearances by: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> mike, Annalisa, Michael, Luisa, and Miguel! > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >> Assistant Professor > >> Department of Anthropology > >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >> Brigham Young University > >> Provo, UT 84602 > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 3 13:43:30 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 21:43:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: <84DC9627-CD2A-4017-A4E7-5AE9ED43883F@gmail.com> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> , <84DC9627-CD2A-4017-A4E7-5AE9ED43883F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1420321411423.62201@unm.edu> Hello, It is a arresting proposition to do an analysis of how people are successfully oppressed rather than how they are successfully liberated. Isn't this what George Orwell attempted to show? Of course what is implied by an analysis of successful oppression is (in my mind) to show whether a disruption of oppressive patterns offers liberation better, equal, or worse than attempting to establish patterns of liberation? Perhaps disruption, interruption, or diversion of oppressive patterns is the best first step? This need not be revolutionary, just effective? Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jan 3 14:41:30 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 14:41:30 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: <1420321411423.62201@unm.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> <84DC9627-CD2A-4017-A4E7-5AE9ED43883F@gmail.com> <1420321411423.62201@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, if models such as *the third space* show or indicate EFFECTIVE liberation, would not these concrete patterns of liberation [as models] express a *truth* that could *mediate* and *orient* and guide how others could also create effective *third spaces*. My bias is to be guided by concrete *works* [developing from social dreams] that productively have actually liberated others to find their *voice*. We need these concrete models that can show us what IS possible here and now. I have a distrust that a general dismantling of all that is oppressive is a required first step to opening a *third space* My bias is to sense the power to act AS IF the third space is always open IF CLAIMED. This dialogically forming *fact* or *truth* is not *objective* but it is not merely *subjective*. It exists as a *possibility* if claimed by an *interpretive community* through a dedication and commitment to EFFECTIVE historically constituted dialogical social dreaming.. This is only one path and one possible example towards claiming a relevant *truth* in our current situation. However the *third space* does SHOW the potential *truth* expressed in the notion that change is instituted through small groups of dedicated folks with shared *social dreams* Large scale social dismantling of the *state* historically has created unintended consequences. The notion of *care* and *concern* as liberating concepts seems to be possible within *third spaces*. Acting *as if* relevant truth(s) exist may have the potential to create living vital spaces where social dreams actually develop and become models. How to create a sense of *trust* through *witnessing* and helping to *produce* third spaces which we occupy AS shared social dreams is the difficult question to answer. When we value autonomy and independence without constraints as our social dream to imagine shared social dreams seems difficult to imagine. This is why we need concrete examples that it is possible as inspiring examples. On Sat, Jan 3, 2015 at 1:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello, > > It is a arresting proposition to do an analysis of how people are > successfully oppressed rather than how they are successfully liberated. > Isn't this what George Orwell attempted to show? > > Of course what is implied by an analysis of successful oppression is (in > my mind) to show whether a disruption of oppressive patterns offers > liberation better, equal, or worse than attempting to establish patterns of > liberation? > > Perhaps disruption, interruption, or diversion of oppressive patterns is > the best first step? This need not be revolutionary, just effective? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sat Jan 3 15:51:53 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 17:51:53 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: <1420321411423.62201@unm.edu> References: , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu>, , <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com>, <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu>, , <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu>, , <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu>, , <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu>, , <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com>, , , <84DC9627-CD2A-4017-A4E7-5AE9ED43883F@gmail.com>, <1420321411423.62201@unm.edu> Message-ID: Message from Francine: Only taking into account the oppression of non-Western peoples by Western (European) people, is dysfunctional. There are (and always have been) other forces at play. In the era of European colonialism, there were other non-European cultures that engaged in colonialism and imperialism. The 1,000 years of Muslim Ottoman Turkish rule of the Middle-East was followed by a much briefer period of European 'administration' over the Middle East (following WWI). [Note: that Egypt is not part of the Middle East] As Annalisa points out China had its own empire, when Western European powers were just beginning to build theirs. It is absurd to regard the Russian Empire as a Western European colonial power. In the 20th century, Imperial Japan of the WWII era was not a Western power. Latin America had various empires that oppressed indigenous peoples long before the Spanish came. And there were indigenous oppressors in Africa, long before the European colonization. Look at the caste system in India, which was not created or imposed by Europeans - unless we want to go back to the Aryan invasion of 2,000 B.C. (which also produced the holy books in Sanskrit.) Oh, and North American indigenous people made war on each other long before Europeans ever set foot on North America. [Note: In a dysfunctional family none of the problems ever get resolved because people stereotype each other as the 'scapegoat', the 'rebel', 'the care giver', the family 'hero', the 'invisble ones', and the 'mascot'.] > From: annalisa@unm.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 21:43:30 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > Hello, > > It is a arresting proposition to do an analysis of how people are successfully oppressed rather than how they are successfully liberated. Isn't this what George Orwell attempted to show? > > Of course what is implied by an analysis of successful oppression is (in my mind) to show whether a disruption of oppressive patterns offers liberation better, equal, or worse than attempting to establish patterns of liberation? > > Perhaps disruption, interruption, or diversion of oppressive patterns is the best first step? This need not be revolutionary, just effective? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sat Jan 3 16:06:25 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 18:06:25 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu>, , <1419961849204.99@unm.edu>, <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com>, <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu>, , <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu>, , <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu>, , <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu>, , <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com>, , <84DC9627-CD2A-4017-A4E7-5AE9ED43883F@gmail.com>, <1420321411423.62201@unm.edu>, Message-ID: Message from Francine: Larry, would you say that the discourse thread on sociocritical literacies has opened up that 'third space'? Are we on the verge of Effective historical dialogical social dreaming? Would other XMCARs who have been reading this thread, but have not posted any comments, share some of their thoughts? > Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 14:41:30 -0800 > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > Annalisa, if models such as *the third space* show or indicate EFFECTIVE > liberation, would not these concrete patterns of liberation [as models] > express a *truth* that could *mediate* and *orient* and guide how others > could also create effective *third spaces*. > My bias is to be guided by concrete *works* [developing from social > dreams] that productively have actually liberated others to find their > *voice*. We need these concrete models that can show us what IS possible > here and now. > I have a distrust that a general dismantling of all that is oppressive is a > required first step to opening a *third space* My bias is to sense the > power to act AS IF the third space is always open IF CLAIMED. > This dialogically forming *fact* or *truth* is not *objective* but it is > not merely *subjective*. It exists as a *possibility* if claimed by an > *interpretive community* through a dedication and commitment to EFFECTIVE > historically constituted dialogical social dreaming.. > This is only one path and one possible example towards claiming a relevant > *truth* in our current situation. > However the *third space* does SHOW the potential *truth* expressed in > the notion that change is instituted through small groups of dedicated > folks with shared *social dreams* > Large scale social dismantling of the *state* historically has created > unintended consequences. The notion of *care* and *concern* as liberating > concepts seems to be possible within *third spaces*. > > Acting *as if* relevant truth(s) exist may have the potential to create > living vital spaces where social dreams actually develop and become > models. How to create a sense of *trust* through *witnessing* and helping > to *produce* third spaces which we occupy AS shared social dreams is the > difficult question to answer. When we value autonomy and independence > without constraints as our social dream to imagine shared social dreams > seems difficult to imagine. This is why we need concrete examples that it > is possible as inspiring examples. > > > > > On Sat, Jan 3, 2015 at 1:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > It is a arresting proposition to do an analysis of how people are > > successfully oppressed rather than how they are successfully liberated. > > Isn't this what George Orwell attempted to show? > > > > Of course what is implied by an analysis of successful oppression is (in > > my mind) to show whether a disruption of oppressive patterns offers > > liberation better, equal, or worse than attempting to establish patterns of > > liberation? > > > > Perhaps disruption, interruption, or diversion of oppressive patterns is > > the best first step? This need not be revolutionary, just effective? > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 3 16:06:54 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 00:06:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> <84DC9627-CD2A-4017-A4E7-5AE9ED43883F@gmail.com> <1420321411423.62201@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1420330014231.39317@unm.edu> Hi Larry, I suppose what I'm proposing is looking at the negative space rather than the positive space. In the manner of what is present and what is lacking (is the glass half full or half empty?) I do not mean at all to propose replicating oppression with another form of it and by new or different perpetrators. What I mean is that noticing what _allows_ (affords) oppression can help reveal dynamics. I'm not proposing anything specific, but merely employing my interactions with my esteemed xmca discussants as a way to think differently about the problem (which is usually considered in solitude), as an exercise of exploration. I do not have an agenda per se, at least not one that is far flung from what others here possess! :) Sharing dreams is a difficult endeavor I believe, however noble a quest that might be. It is difficult to agree upon the same dream sometimes. It is a valid approach to be sure. I'm proposing (I think) a more material alternative. Let's consider something as simple as this: The US was founded upon the claim: "All men are created equal." The disruption there is to say, "Hold on a minute! That's not true!" because what is claimed and what is lived is discordant. The first note is "Yeah, but there's this institution called 'slavery', what about that?" If this is allowed to stand, shouldn't it be disrupted? The second note is "Yeah, but what about the women?" If this is allowed to stand, shouldn't it be disrupted? The third note is "Yeah, but what about disabled/vulnerable folks?" If this is allowed to stand, shouldn't it be disrupted? The fourth note is "Yeah, girlfriend, but what about LBGT?" If this is allowed to stand, shouldn't it be disrupted? And I'm sure there are other notes to hear, such as "Yeah, but what if I'm not American?" Now how that is to be disrupted, I am not sure. It does appear to be the topic at hand lately, wouldn't you say, and in many different manifestations (The cynics might counter, "Actually, all men are born into classes," but let's put those claims aside since anyone hasn't made that explicit claim in founding the US, even if "separate but equal" during Jim Crow can be interpreted that way. Still, it is worth consideration that there are implications everywhere in the US that people do think this way. The problem is, in that case, is it descriptive or prescriptive?) I believe in all the above cases disruption was an act of care and concern, wouldn't you say? It seems fair to say historically that disruption is the first step to liberation, by first asking the obvious questions. An act of care can be the most disruptive force there is. :) In order to really understand what is discordant however, is to say: How is it possible to live two realities? Where what one says is completely different from what one does? It would mean understanding how that Pedagogy of Oppressors transforms a person to live two realities would be quite valuable, wouldn't it? This is where I find Orwell to be invaluable. What is interesting in that light is not what happened to Winston, but what happened to O'Brien? How does one continue to live on as an oppressor? Doesn't it get tiring? Does one ever sleep well at night? But curiously, Orwell doesn't really focus on that. He focuses on the oppression of Winston. At the time this was published it's possible to interpret the demise of Winston as "And this could be you!" This is the moral of the story, perhaps. Yet actually, what is more terrifying is to think about O'Brien and consider, "And THIS could be you!" So I'm only looking at this from a different perspective... same story, different vantage point. What do you think? Kind regards, Annalisa From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sun Jan 4 09:47:51 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 09:47:51 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Greg - Quickly, since the thread is moving on. I'm arguing that a "Pedagogy of the Oppressor" is what we've got going on throughout our educational system. At the elite heights, students learn how to rule the world; in the depths, the same pedagogy functions as social control. Here is a quote from Lave's article "teaching, as Learning, in Practice," which was published in MCA vol 3 no 3. The article is drawn from her acceptance speech at AERA when she got the Sylvia Scribner award. She says: "...theories that conceive of learning as a special universal mental process impoverish and mis-recognize it...Theories that reduce learning to individual mental capacity/activity in the last instance blame marginalized people for being marginal. Common theories of learning begin and end with individual (though these days they often nod at "the social" or "the environment" in between). Such theories are deeply concerned with individual differences, with notions of better and worse, more and less learning, and with comparison of these things across group-of-individuals... the logic that makes success exceptional but nonetheless characterizes lack of success as not normal won't do. A reconsideration of learning as a social, collective, rather than individual, psychological phenomenon offers the only way beyond the current state of affiars that i can envision at the present time." It sounds to me as if she is thinking of (although this was 1996) both No Child Left Behind and Race to the Top. Right? But she was writing just when the trend in that direction was getting going. the Clinton years, when people were intoxicated with the first vast applications of computer technology which would make testing so much easier. Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:50 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > Helena, > I was hoping that others might be able to tell me that this has already been done. Seems like lots of people are in this kind of game but nobody has really talked about it explicitly (as far as I can tell - maybe some whiteness theorists but in a very circumscribed way). and I'm quite certain that no one has deal with it in a sufficiently sophisticated manner to be able to hedge off the kinds of concerns that Francine raises. > Anyone have any thoughts? Perhaps this should be a different thread? > And yes, Freire has this on his radar but not nearly explicitly enough to where it could be employed I. Some meaningful way in practice. > Greg > Ps, and yes my comment entirely sidesteps definitional issues of who counts as subaltern or not. That is a huge and mucky issue. But not sure it is worth getting bogged down in it... > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:24 PM, Helena Worthen wrote: >> >> Greg -- that's a great idea. I think is has been done, but without a label. Want to nominate an example? >> >> Helena >> >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> >>> On Jan 3, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: >>> >>> Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a >>> question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" >>> >>> Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. >>> >>> -greg >>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>> >>>> Miguel/Mike, >>>> >>>> I think we have a testimonio here. We have questions borne out of a >>>> traumatic historical and social episode (WWII), followed by a movement >>>> outward "going East," only to discover one's self "Dewey." The self becomes >>>> an allegory for the whole. It may seem that Spivak is saying translation is >>>> impossible, but I think a testimonio shows the possibility of translation. >>>> Thanks for this gift and happy new year! >>>> >>>> Aria >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:23 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>> >>>> I inherited such questions as part of my family history and my coming to >>>> age during the period of post world war II decolonization, Aria, well >>>> before I travelled East, as you suggest. Interestingly, it was in going in >>>> East that I discovered Dewey.... such was the form of education that led to >>>> my phd. >>>> >>>> Concerning misleading translations. >>>> I have PLENTY of problems with issues of translating Vygotsky, in words >>>> and in practice! Ask any Russian or scholar whose knowledge of Russian was >>>> acquired after the age of 20! (Plenty right here on xmca, one I can see >>>> logged into gmail right now). There is a piece in MCA a while back on the >>>> perils of translating a key term involving eaching/learning/instruction >>>> that is part of an ongoing set of questions about the meaning of the term, >>>> zone of proximal development. >>>> >>>> Peter's note with the distinction between decolonial/postcolonial seems to >>>> pick up on some of the themes that various folks who participated in the >>>> Migrant program are making. Gotta check out wikipedia on third spaces. The >>>> metaphor sure has a lot of homes in a lot of discourse communities and I >>>> suspect that some translation will be needed! >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike, would you say that you have been seeking answers to these >>>>> questions by "going East"? I think Spivak would agree with the second >>>>> question. In "Translating into English" she talks about how >>>>> "generations of empiricist English translators have missed the point >>>>> with Marx's philosophical presuppositions, translated 'inhaltslos' as >>>>> 'slight in content' and thus made nonsense out of the entire >>>>> discussion of value. You may have had a smiliar experience translating >>>> Vygotsky. >>>>> >>>>> Here it is: >>>>> >>>>> http://przeklad.nazwa.pl/schowek/spivak2.pdf >>>>> >>>>> Aria >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 1:07 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>> >>>>> Aria--- I had not read the Spivak article, although the question she >>>>> asks is one I have been asking myself for half a century. And, I would >>>>> add, under what conditions? >>>>> >>>>> I found the article here in case others share my ignorance. >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> http://www.mcgill.ca/files/crclaw-discourse/Can_the_subaltern_speak.pd >>>>> f >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Larry, >>>>>> >>>>>> The specific stance that is amplified by the intersections of "third >>>>>> space" post-colonial theory, sociocultural theory, and "testimonio" >>>>>> is somewhat apparent in the language choice. There is no English >>>>>> equivalent because there cannot be an English equivalent. At least, >>>>>> there cannot be an "English-Only" equivalent. It represents a >>>>>> movement toward an indigenous stance on voice, agency, knowledge, >>>>>> certainty, validity, language choice, and learning. I say a "movement >>>> toward" >>>>>> because Spanish itself carries similar baggage especially within the >>>>>> Latin American context. This is the rationale for why some use the >>>>>> Aztec idea of Nepantla instead of "Third Space" (e.g., Rochelle >>>>>> Guiterrez, Gloria Anzaldua). "Testimonio" further complicates what >>>>>> it means for "subalterns" to "reclaim voice" through the dominant >>>> voice. >>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>>>> outside" the inscribed institutional roles, together in order to >>>>>> move "to the roots of our being human together." Spivak was >>>>>> specfically critiqueing "the Western intellectual" voice wondering >>>>>> if it truly could be a tool of liberation. It seems like a "core" >>>>>> identity question as we move through various historical >>>>>> entanglements seeking answers to ontological questions of self in >>>>>> relation to other. Also >>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois >>>>>> at Chicago >>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>>> >>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action >>>>>> Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>>> >>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>>>> outside" the inscribed roles, together in order to move "to the >>>>>> roots of our being human together." It seems like a "core" identity >>>>>> question as we move through various historical entanglements seeking >>>>>> answers to ontological questions of self in relation to other. Also >>>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+Purss >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:08 PM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria, >>>>>> I want to repeat and amplify your suggestion : >>>>>> >>>>>> It is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., liminality, >>>>>> double consciousness, third place, etc.). The post-colonial uptake >>>>>> of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) within the sociocultural >>>>>> theory is a very specific stance and this might be the moment for >>>>>> that >>>>> conversation as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> To focus on the *third space* as a VERY SPECIFIC stance. >>>>>> I would like to become clear on the centrality of *witnessing* as >>>>>> central or the re-search fades away. >>>>>> Also terms such as *mutuality* contrasted with *reciprocity* or >>>>>> *transactions*. >>>>>> >>>>>> Testimonios as neither subjective [alone] or objective [alone] but a >>>>>> hybrid MODE that is a form of witnessing. >>>>>> I would also suggest the theme of *gift* as more than transaction or >>>>>> echange [in continental philosophy traditions] is relevant. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is a *spirit* and a moral virtue within this form of >>>>>> witnessing as *third space* that plays around with notions of >>>>>> *trans* as moving across forms [horizons] as trans-versals [or >>>> trans-verse-als] . >>>>>> I have an intuition that this type of witnessing is radical, going >>>>>> to the roots of our being human together. >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria, I look forward to further re-search Larry >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For those of us working with Kris' sociocritical perspective, >>>>>>> third space has been a valuable construct for thinking about >>>>>>> collective learning zopeds and consciousness for that matter. It >>>>>>> is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., >>>>>>> liminality, double consciousness, third place, etc.). The >>>>>>> post-colonial uptake of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) >>>>>>> within the sociocultural theory is a very specific stance and this >>>>>>> might be the moment for that conversation as >>>>>> well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of >>>>>>> Illinois at Chicago >>>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and >>>>>>> Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Webpage: >>>>>>> http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kris >>>>>>> Gutierrez >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:56 PM >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Annalisa, Manuel initiated the last uptake. (I think others have >>>>>>> clarified that now :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike C., Miguel Zavala, Larry Purss and I posted some thoughts >>>>>>> before the holidays. For me it is useful to connect Manuel?s >>>>>>> recent post to those earlier thoughts/conversations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some very quick very unedited thoughts following up on Manuel?s post: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Michael G., Mike C. correctly points out that the >>>>>>> testimonios/autobiographies were not research techniques but >>>>>>> generative tools that were indeed a part of the interconnected set >>>>>>> of practices that created a collective zoped?a third space if you >>>> will. >>>>>>> I try to elaborate this idea in the Scribner Lecture piece >>>>>>> (sociocritical literacies). My own work on Third Space, the >>>>>>> collective work of the instructional team of MSI, ongoing >>>>>>> conversations with Mike C. and Yrjo over the years at the lab, and >>>>>>> their work certainly informed this idea of a collective zoped, >>>>>>> collective third space (See Engestr?m, 1987, 1994 in particular; >>>>>>> Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993; Tuomi-Gr?hn & Engestr?m, 2003; Tuomi- >>>>>>> Gr?hn, Engestr?m, & Young, 2003; Chaiklin, 2003, Moll, 1990; Moll >>>>>>> & Greenberg, 1990 as key examples that certainly inform this work >>>>>>> as >>>>> well. >>>>>> And LSV and Bakhtin are ever present). >>>>>>> These, I think, are useful references, all cited in the article. >>>>>>> Shirin Vossoughi?s recent MCA piece also is very relevant to this >>>>>> discussion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some relevant excerpts from the sociocritical article, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "To illustrate these points and their relation to a collective >>>>>>> Third Space, let us examine the MSLI more closely. >>>>>>> The activity system, the MSLI, has a specific internal logic >>>>>>> organized around expanding the students? sociohistorical and >>>>>>> educational ecology through the collective imagining of a new >>>>>>> educational and sociopolitical future. >>>>>>> To avoid the ?interactional reductionism implicit in much >>>>>>> Vygotskian-inspired research? (Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993, p. 284), >>>>>>> the specific interactions and practices of the MSLI are understood >>>>>>> as what Nicolopoulou and Cole call a ?genuinely collective reality? >>>>> (p. 284). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here we see the [Migrant] institute as an example of the Third >>>>>>> Space, a collective zo-ped, at the larger level of activity the >>>>>>> object of which is the sociohistorical reconstruction of what it >>>>>>> means to be a migrant student. >>>>>>> This movement involves a process of becoming conscious ?historical >>>>>> actors? >>>>>>> (Espinoza, 2003) who invoke the past in order to re-mediate it so >>>>>>> that it becomes a resource for current and future action (p. 154)." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Testimonios and their embodiment in Teatro del Oprimido (Boal?s >>>>>>> Theatre of the Oppressed that Manuel introduced to us and the >>>>>>> program and that he and Vossoughi elaborated) were key means of >>>>>>> developing/inciting a new social and pedagogical imagination and >>>>>>> for imagining new futures with/for the migrant students, their >>>>>>> communities, and indeed for all of us, as Manuel so thoughtfully >>>>>>> writes. Teatro served as a collective problem-solving space?a >>>>>>> space where the playful imagination helped to make inequities and >>>>>>> the roots of social problems visible, while providing an >>>>>>> opportunity to re-frame events, re-mediate and enact an imagined >>>>>>> future collectively (such as flying collectively/social dreaming). >>>>>>> I hope Manuel and Shirin jump in and elaborate these thoughts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Re: Research design: For me, Migrant was in Yrjo and Mike's >>>>>>> approach, a formative experiment; what I term social design >>>>>>> experiments?a designed based research approach that foregrounds >>>>>>> equity, diversity, historicity, and re-mediation, for example. As >>>>>>> Susan Jurow and I wrote and presented at the ICLS conference this >>>>>>> summer (a piece that we expect will be part of a larger set of >>>>>>> papers with Mike C., Yrjo and Annalisa, and Bill Penuel), social >>>>>>> design experiments: aim to make possible a sustainable and >>>>>>> dignified life for all humans; address the challenges of >>>>>>> leveraging cultural diversity and reducing social inequality; and >>>>>>> call for the co-design of new tools and futures with members of >>>>>>> non-dominant communities, as but a few key design principles. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Absolutely, research as re-searching?searching for the answer >>>>>>> to a question you have searched for repeatedly without success! >>>>>>> Well said, Miguel Cole! Thanks, for your thoughts, Michael Glassman! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> more on sociocritical literacies, later. kris >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kris Gutierrez >>>>>>> gutierkd@gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kris D. Guti?rrez >>>>>>> Professor >>>>>>> Graduate School of Education >>>>>>> 5629 Tolman Hall #1670 >>>>>>> University of California, Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-1670 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Distinguished Professor >>>>>>> Learning Sciences and Literacy >>>>>>> School of Education >>>>>>> University of Colorado, Boulder >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sorry for being silly here, but I couldn't help but see that so >>>>>>>> far on >>>>>>> this thread, there have been appearances by: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mike, Annalisa, Michael, Luisa, and Miguel! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> > From glassman.13@osu.edu Sun Jan 4 10:01:18 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 18:01:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> , Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F90871D9@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Hi Helena, I worry about this divide between psychological and social in education. Collective views of education can be at least as dangerous as collective education. In some sense it seems to me (right now) that one of the goals in education should be in giving individuals the capabilities to critically look at the collective and wonder why they are accepting it, why they are apart of it. I do think treating the individual simply as an information processing machine is dangerous as well - but the education of the oppressor is at its core an education of the collective, it is just a collective that benefits the individual. Last year I was thinking a lot about the beginnings of critical theory in Germany coinciding with the rise of the Nazis by Fromm and Adorno, later joined by Horkheimer. Their stance was confusion and despair at why so many workers were going against their own interests and buying into the collective of nationalistic belief systems (why they are so quick to join with the collective). I know he is not much talked about these days but Freud wondered the same thing. Thomas Frank has asked the same thing recently in the U.S. with his book "What's the matter with Kansas. Freire cites the work of Adorno and Fromm a good deal in Pedagogy of the Oppressed, making the argument that the reason people make these choice that seem so apparently against their own benefit is because of the way we are educated. We are educated to take our place in the collective. It's not that this is something we shouldn't do, but something we should think about before we do. I don't think No Child Left Behind was ever about teaching specific things - it was mostly about teaching them to be good little cogs in the machine and not fight back. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Helena Worthen [helenaworthen@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 12:47 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context Greg - Quickly, since the thread is moving on. I'm arguing that a "Pedagogy of the Oppressor" is what we've got going on throughout our educational system. At the elite heights, students learn how to rule the world; in the depths, the same pedagogy functions as social control. Here is a quote from Lave's article "teaching, as Learning, in Practice," which was published in MCA vol 3 no 3. The article is drawn from her acceptance speech at AERA when she got the Sylvia Scribner award. She says: "...theories that conceive of learning as a special universal mental process impoverish and mis-recognize it...Theories that reduce learning to individual mental capacity/activity in the last instance blame marginalized people for being marginal. Common theories of learning begin and end with individual (though these days they often nod at "the social" or "the environment" in between). Such theories are deeply concerned with individual differences, with notions of better and worse, more and less learning, and with comparison of these things across group-of-individuals... the logic that makes success exceptional but nonetheless characterizes lack of success as not normal won't do. A reconsideration of learning as a social, collective, rather than individual, psychological phenomenon offers the only way beyond the current state of affiars that i can envision at the present time." It sounds to me as if she is thinking of (although this was 1996) both No Child Left Behind and Race to the Top. Right? But she was writing just when the trend in that direction was getting going. the Clinton years, when people were intoxicated with the first vast applications of computer technology which would make testing so much easier. Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:50 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > Helena, > I was hoping that others might be able to tell me that this has already been done. Seems like lots of people are in this kind of game but nobody has really talked about it explicitly (as far as I can tell - maybe some whiteness theorists but in a very circumscribed way). and I'm quite certain that no one has deal with it in a sufficiently sophisticated manner to be able to hedge off the kinds of concerns that Francine raises. > Anyone have any thoughts? Perhaps this should be a different thread? > And yes, Freire has this on his radar but not nearly explicitly enough to where it could be employed I. Some meaningful way in practice. > Greg > Ps, and yes my comment entirely sidesteps definitional issues of who counts as subaltern or not. That is a huge and mucky issue. But not sure it is worth getting bogged down in it... > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:24 PM, Helena Worthen wrote: >> >> Greg -- that's a great idea. I think is has been done, but without a label. Want to nominate an example? >> >> Helena >> >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> >>> On Jan 3, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: >>> >>> Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a >>> question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" >>> >>> Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. >>> >>> -greg >>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>> >>>> Miguel/Mike, >>>> >>>> I think we have a testimonio here. We have questions borne out of a >>>> traumatic historical and social episode (WWII), followed by a movement >>>> outward "going East," only to discover one's self "Dewey." The self becomes >>>> an allegory for the whole. It may seem that Spivak is saying translation is >>>> impossible, but I think a testimonio shows the possibility of translation. >>>> Thanks for this gift and happy new year! >>>> >>>> Aria >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:23 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>> >>>> I inherited such questions as part of my family history and my coming to >>>> age during the period of post world war II decolonization, Aria, well >>>> before I travelled East, as you suggest. Interestingly, it was in going in >>>> East that I discovered Dewey.... such was the form of education that led to >>>> my phd. >>>> >>>> Concerning misleading translations. >>>> I have PLENTY of problems with issues of translating Vygotsky, in words >>>> and in practice! Ask any Russian or scholar whose knowledge of Russian was >>>> acquired after the age of 20! (Plenty right here on xmca, one I can see >>>> logged into gmail right now). There is a piece in MCA a while back on the >>>> perils of translating a key term involving eaching/learning/instruction >>>> that is part of an ongoing set of questions about the meaning of the term, >>>> zone of proximal development. >>>> >>>> Peter's note with the distinction between decolonial/postcolonial seems to >>>> pick up on some of the themes that various folks who participated in the >>>> Migrant program are making. Gotta check out wikipedia on third spaces. The >>>> metaphor sure has a lot of homes in a lot of discourse communities and I >>>> suspect that some translation will be needed! >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike, would you say that you have been seeking answers to these >>>>> questions by "going East"? I think Spivak would agree with the second >>>>> question. In "Translating into English" she talks about how >>>>> "generations of empiricist English translators have missed the point >>>>> with Marx's philosophical presuppositions, translated 'inhaltslos' as >>>>> 'slight in content' and thus made nonsense out of the entire >>>>> discussion of value. You may have had a smiliar experience translating >>>> Vygotsky. >>>>> >>>>> Here it is: >>>>> >>>>> http://przeklad.nazwa.pl/schowek/spivak2.pdf >>>>> >>>>> Aria >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 1:07 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>> >>>>> Aria--- I had not read the Spivak article, although the question she >>>>> asks is one I have been asking myself for half a century. And, I would >>>>> add, under what conditions? >>>>> >>>>> I found the article here in case others share my ignorance. >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> http://www.mcgill.ca/files/crclaw-discourse/Can_the_subaltern_speak.pd >>>>> f >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Larry, >>>>>> >>>>>> The specific stance that is amplified by the intersections of "third >>>>>> space" post-colonial theory, sociocultural theory, and "testimonio" >>>>>> is somewhat apparent in the language choice. There is no English >>>>>> equivalent because there cannot be an English equivalent. At least, >>>>>> there cannot be an "English-Only" equivalent. It represents a >>>>>> movement toward an indigenous stance on voice, agency, knowledge, >>>>>> certainty, validity, language choice, and learning. I say a "movement >>>> toward" >>>>>> because Spanish itself carries similar baggage especially within the >>>>>> Latin American context. This is the rationale for why some use the >>>>>> Aztec idea of Nepantla instead of "Third Space" (e.g., Rochelle >>>>>> Guiterrez, Gloria Anzaldua). "Testimonio" further complicates what >>>>>> it means for "subalterns" to "reclaim voice" through the dominant >>>> voice. >>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>>>> outside" the inscribed institutional roles, together in order to >>>>>> move "to the roots of our being human together." Spivak was >>>>>> specfically critiqueing "the Western intellectual" voice wondering >>>>>> if it truly could be a tool of liberation. It seems like a "core" >>>>>> identity question as we move through various historical >>>>>> entanglements seeking answers to ontological questions of self in >>>>>> relation to other. Also >>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois >>>>>> at Chicago >>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>>> >>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action >>>>>> Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>>> >>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>>>> outside" the inscribed roles, together in order to move "to the >>>>>> roots of our being human together." It seems like a "core" identity >>>>>> question as we move through various historical entanglements seeking >>>>>> answers to ontological questions of self in relation to other. Also >>>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+Purss >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:08 PM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria, >>>>>> I want to repeat and amplify your suggestion : >>>>>> >>>>>> It is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., liminality, >>>>>> double consciousness, third place, etc.). The post-colonial uptake >>>>>> of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) within the sociocultural >>>>>> theory is a very specific stance and this might be the moment for >>>>>> that >>>>> conversation as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> To focus on the *third space* as a VERY SPECIFIC stance. >>>>>> I would like to become clear on the centrality of *witnessing* as >>>>>> central or the re-search fades away. >>>>>> Also terms such as *mutuality* contrasted with *reciprocity* or >>>>>> *transactions*. >>>>>> >>>>>> Testimonios as neither subjective [alone] or objective [alone] but a >>>>>> hybrid MODE that is a form of witnessing. >>>>>> I would also suggest the theme of *gift* as more than transaction or >>>>>> echange [in continental philosophy traditions] is relevant. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is a *spirit* and a moral virtue within this form of >>>>>> witnessing as *third space* that plays around with notions of >>>>>> *trans* as moving across forms [horizons] as trans-versals [or >>>> trans-verse-als] . >>>>>> I have an intuition that this type of witnessing is radical, going >>>>>> to the roots of our being human together. >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria, I look forward to further re-search Larry >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For those of us working with Kris' sociocritical perspective, >>>>>>> third space has been a valuable construct for thinking about >>>>>>> collective learning zopeds and consciousness for that matter. It >>>>>>> is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., >>>>>>> liminality, double consciousness, third place, etc.). The >>>>>>> post-colonial uptake of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) >>>>>>> within the sociocultural theory is a very specific stance and this >>>>>>> might be the moment for that conversation as >>>>>> well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of >>>>>>> Illinois at Chicago >>>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and >>>>>>> Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Webpage: >>>>>>> http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kris >>>>>>> Gutierrez >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:56 PM >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Annalisa, Manuel initiated the last uptake. (I think others have >>>>>>> clarified that now :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike C., Miguel Zavala, Larry Purss and I posted some thoughts >>>>>>> before the holidays. For me it is useful to connect Manuel?s >>>>>>> recent post to those earlier thoughts/conversations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some very quick very unedited thoughts following up on Manuel?s post: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Michael G., Mike C. correctly points out that the >>>>>>> testimonios/autobiographies were not research techniques but >>>>>>> generative tools that were indeed a part of the interconnected set >>>>>>> of practices that created a collective zoped?a third space if you >>>> will. >>>>>>> I try to elaborate this idea in the Scribner Lecture piece >>>>>>> (sociocritical literacies). My own work on Third Space, the >>>>>>> collective work of the instructional team of MSI, ongoing >>>>>>> conversations with Mike C. and Yrjo over the years at the lab, and >>>>>>> their work certainly informed this idea of a collective zoped, >>>>>>> collective third space (See Engestr?m, 1987, 1994 in particular; >>>>>>> Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993; Tuomi-Gr?hn & Engestr?m, 2003; Tuomi- >>>>>>> Gr?hn, Engestr?m, & Young, 2003; Chaiklin, 2003, Moll, 1990; Moll >>>>>>> & Greenberg, 1990 as key examples that certainly inform this work >>>>>>> as >>>>> well. >>>>>> And LSV and Bakhtin are ever present). >>>>>>> These, I think, are useful references, all cited in the article. >>>>>>> Shirin Vossoughi?s recent MCA piece also is very relevant to this >>>>>> discussion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some relevant excerpts from the sociocritical article, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "To illustrate these points and their relation to a collective >>>>>>> Third Space, let us examine the MSLI more closely. >>>>>>> The activity system, the MSLI, has a specific internal logic >>>>>>> organized around expanding the students? sociohistorical and >>>>>>> educational ecology through the collective imagining of a new >>>>>>> educational and sociopolitical future. >>>>>>> To avoid the ?interactional reductionism implicit in much >>>>>>> Vygotskian-inspired research? (Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993, p. 284), >>>>>>> the specific interactions and practices of the MSLI are understood >>>>>>> as what Nicolopoulou and Cole call a ?genuinely collective reality? >>>>> (p. 284). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here we see the [Migrant] institute as an example of the Third >>>>>>> Space, a collective zo-ped, at the larger level of activity the >>>>>>> object of which is the sociohistorical reconstruction of what it >>>>>>> means to be a migrant student. >>>>>>> This movement involves a process of becoming conscious ?historical >>>>>> actors? >>>>>>> (Espinoza, 2003) who invoke the past in order to re-mediate it so >>>>>>> that it becomes a resource for current and future action (p. 154)." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Testimonios and their embodiment in Teatro del Oprimido (Boal?s >>>>>>> Theatre of the Oppressed that Manuel introduced to us and the >>>>>>> program and that he and Vossoughi elaborated) were key means of >>>>>>> developing/inciting a new social and pedagogical imagination and >>>>>>> for imagining new futures with/for the migrant students, their >>>>>>> communities, and indeed for all of us, as Manuel so thoughtfully >>>>>>> writes. Teatro served as a collective problem-solving space?a >>>>>>> space where the playful imagination helped to make inequities and >>>>>>> the roots of social problems visible, while providing an >>>>>>> opportunity to re-frame events, re-mediate and enact an imagined >>>>>>> future collectively (such as flying collectively/social dreaming). >>>>>>> I hope Manuel and Shirin jump in and elaborate these thoughts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Re: Research design: For me, Migrant was in Yrjo and Mike's >>>>>>> approach, a formative experiment; what I term social design >>>>>>> experiments?a designed based research approach that foregrounds >>>>>>> equity, diversity, historicity, and re-mediation, for example. As >>>>>>> Susan Jurow and I wrote and presented at the ICLS conference this >>>>>>> summer (a piece that we expect will be part of a larger set of >>>>>>> papers with Mike C., Yrjo and Annalisa, and Bill Penuel), social >>>>>>> design experiments: aim to make possible a sustainable and >>>>>>> dignified life for all humans; address the challenges of >>>>>>> leveraging cultural diversity and reducing social inequality; and >>>>>>> call for the co-design of new tools and futures with members of >>>>>>> non-dominant communities, as but a few key design principles. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Absolutely, research as re-searching?searching for the answer >>>>>>> to a question you have searched for repeatedly without success! >>>>>>> Well said, Miguel Cole! Thanks, for your thoughts, Michael Glassman! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> more on sociocritical literacies, later. kris >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kris Gutierrez >>>>>>> gutierkd@gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kris D. Guti?rrez >>>>>>> Professor >>>>>>> Graduate School of Education >>>>>>> 5629 Tolman Hall #1670 >>>>>>> University of California, Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-1670 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Distinguished Professor >>>>>>> Learning Sciences and Literacy >>>>>>> School of Education >>>>>>> University of Colorado, Boulder >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sorry for being silly here, but I couldn't help but see that so >>>>>>>> far on >>>>>>> this thread, there have been appearances by: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mike, Annalisa, Michael, Luisa, and Miguel! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sun Jan 4 10:15:33 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 10:15:33 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F90871D9@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F90871D9@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <41F8E03E-7E4B-43F8-B435-C58D8AC8D0CB@gmail.com> Michael -- The examples you give of "the collective" are examples of the impact of education as social control. The individuals that benefited (and benefit today) from education as social control are not the ones being controlled. The ones who benefit are the individuals who have escaped it. The whole regime is what I am proposing as an example of a Pedagogy of the Oppressor. If one has experienced education as social control from a social position at the bottom of the ladder, then of course, looking critically at the whole regime is step one. Then the question is, do we want to help one individual climb the ladder? Or do we hope to change the ladder so that a whole bunch of people can escape? The pedagogy that works to help a whole group of people escape would be the Pedagogy of the Oppressed, as in Freire. H Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Jan 4, 2015, at 10:01 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hi Helena, > > I worry about this divide between psychological and social in education. Collective views of education can be at least as dangerous as collective education. In some sense it seems to me (right now) that one of the goals in education should be in giving individuals the capabilities to critically look at the collective and wonder why they are accepting it, why they are apart of it. I do think treating the individual simply as an information processing machine is dangerous as well - but the education of the oppressor is at its core an education of the collective, it is just a collective that benefits the individual. Last year I was thinking a lot about the beginnings of critical theory in Germany coinciding with the rise of the Nazis by Fromm and Adorno, later joined by Horkheimer. Their stance was confusion and despair at why so many workers were going against their own interests and buying into the collective of nationalistic belief systems (why they are so quick to join with the collective). I know he is not much talked about these days but Freud wondered the same thing. Thomas Frank has asked the same thing recently in the U.S. with his book "What's the matter with Kansas. Freire cites the work of Adorno and Fromm a good deal in Pedagogy of the Oppressed, making the argument that the reason people make these choice that seem so apparently against their own benefit is because of the way we are educated. We are educated to take our place in the collective. It's not that this is something we shouldn't do, but something we should think about before we do. > > I don't think No Child Left Behind was ever about teaching specific things - it was mostly about teaching them to be good little cogs in the machine and not fight back. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Helena Worthen [helenaworthen@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 12:47 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > Greg - > > Quickly, since the thread is moving on. I'm arguing that a "Pedagogy of the Oppressor" is what we've got going on throughout our educational system. At the elite heights, students learn how to rule the world; in the depths, the same pedagogy functions as social control. > > Here is a quote from Lave's article "teaching, as Learning, in Practice," which was published in MCA vol 3 no 3. The article is drawn from her acceptance speech at AERA when she got the Sylvia Scribner award. She says: > > "...theories that conceive of learning as a special universal mental process impoverish and mis-recognize it...Theories that reduce learning to individual mental capacity/activity in the last instance blame marginalized people for being marginal. Common theories of learning begin and end with individual (though these days they often nod at "the social" or "the environment" in between). Such theories are deeply concerned with individual differences, with notions of better and worse, more and less learning, and with comparison of these things across group-of-individuals... the logic that makes success exceptional but nonetheless characterizes lack of success as not normal won't do. A reconsideration of learning as a social, collective, rather than individual, psychological phenomenon offers the only way beyond the current state of affiars that i can envision at the present time." > > It sounds to me as if she is thinking of (although this was 1996) both No Child Left Behind and Race to the Top. Right? But she was writing just when the trend in that direction was getting going. the Clinton years, when people were intoxicated with the first vast applications of computer technology which would make testing so much easier. > > Helena > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:50 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > >> Helena, >> I was hoping that others might be able to tell me that this has already been done. Seems like lots of people are in this kind of game but nobody has really talked about it explicitly (as far as I can tell - maybe some whiteness theorists but in a very circumscribed way). and I'm quite certain that no one has deal with it in a sufficiently sophisticated manner to be able to hedge off the kinds of concerns that Francine raises. >> Anyone have any thoughts? Perhaps this should be a different thread? >> And yes, Freire has this on his radar but not nearly explicitly enough to where it could be employed I. Some meaningful way in practice. >> Greg >> Ps, and yes my comment entirely sidesteps definitional issues of who counts as subaltern or not. That is a huge and mucky issue. But not sure it is worth getting bogged down in it... >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:24 PM, Helena Worthen wrote: >>> >>> Greg -- that's a great idea. I think is has been done, but without a label. Want to nominate an example? >>> >>> Helena >>> >>> >>> Helena Worthen >>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>> >>>> On Jan 3, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: >>>> >>>> Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a >>>> question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" >>>> >>>> Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. >>>> >>>> -greg >>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Miguel/Mike, >>>>> >>>>> I think we have a testimonio here. We have questions borne out of a >>>>> traumatic historical and social episode (WWII), followed by a movement >>>>> outward "going East," only to discover one's self "Dewey." The self becomes >>>>> an allegory for the whole. It may seem that Spivak is saying translation is >>>>> impossible, but I think a testimonio shows the possibility of translation. >>>>> Thanks for this gift and happy new year! >>>>> >>>>> Aria >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:23 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>> >>>>> I inherited such questions as part of my family history and my coming to >>>>> age during the period of post world war II decolonization, Aria, well >>>>> before I travelled East, as you suggest. Interestingly, it was in going in >>>>> East that I discovered Dewey.... such was the form of education that led to >>>>> my phd. >>>>> >>>>> Concerning misleading translations. >>>>> I have PLENTY of problems with issues of translating Vygotsky, in words >>>>> and in practice! Ask any Russian or scholar whose knowledge of Russian was >>>>> acquired after the age of 20! (Plenty right here on xmca, one I can see >>>>> logged into gmail right now). There is a piece in MCA a while back on the >>>>> perils of translating a key term involving eaching/learning/instruction >>>>> that is part of an ongoing set of questions about the meaning of the term, >>>>> zone of proximal development. >>>>> >>>>> Peter's note with the distinction between decolonial/postcolonial seems to >>>>> pick up on some of the themes that various folks who participated in the >>>>> Migrant program are making. Gotta check out wikipedia on third spaces. The >>>>> metaphor sure has a lot of homes in a lot of discourse communities and I >>>>> suspect that some translation will be needed! >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike, would you say that you have been seeking answers to these >>>>>> questions by "going East"? I think Spivak would agree with the second >>>>>> question. In "Translating into English" she talks about how >>>>>> "generations of empiricist English translators have missed the point >>>>>> with Marx's philosophical presuppositions, translated 'inhaltslos' as >>>>>> 'slight in content' and thus made nonsense out of the entire >>>>>> discussion of value. You may have had a smiliar experience translating >>>>> Vygotsky. >>>>>> >>>>>> Here it is: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://przeklad.nazwa.pl/schowek/spivak2.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 1:07 PM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria--- I had not read the Spivak article, although the question she >>>>>> asks is one I have been asking myself for half a century. And, I would >>>>>> add, under what conditions? >>>>>> >>>>>> I found the article here in case others share my ignorance. >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.mcgill.ca/files/crclaw-discourse/Can_the_subaltern_speak.pd >>>>>> f >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Larry, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The specific stance that is amplified by the intersections of "third >>>>>>> space" post-colonial theory, sociocultural theory, and "testimonio" >>>>>>> is somewhat apparent in the language choice. There is no English >>>>>>> equivalent because there cannot be an English equivalent. At least, >>>>>>> there cannot be an "English-Only" equivalent. It represents a >>>>>>> movement toward an indigenous stance on voice, agency, knowledge, >>>>>>> certainty, validity, language choice, and learning. I say a "movement >>>>> toward" >>>>>>> because Spanish itself carries similar baggage especially within the >>>>>>> Latin American context. This is the rationale for why some use the >>>>>>> Aztec idea of Nepantla instead of "Third Space" (e.g., Rochelle >>>>>>> Guiterrez, Gloria Anzaldua). "Testimonio" further complicates what >>>>>>> it means for "subalterns" to "reclaim voice" through the dominant >>>>> voice. >>>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>>>>> outside" the inscribed institutional roles, together in order to >>>>>>> move "to the roots of our being human together." Spivak was >>>>>>> specfically critiqueing "the Western intellectual" voice wondering >>>>>>> if it truly could be a tool of liberation. It seems like a "core" >>>>>>> identity question as we move through various historical >>>>>>> entanglements seeking answers to ontological questions of self in >>>>>>> relation to other. Also >>>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois >>>>>>> at Chicago >>>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action >>>>>>> Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>>>>> outside" the inscribed roles, together in order to move "to the >>>>>>> roots of our being human together." It seems like a "core" identity >>>>>>> question as we move through various historical entanglements seeking >>>>>>> answers to ontological questions of self in relation to other. Also >>>>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+Purss >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:08 PM >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria, >>>>>>> I want to repeat and amplify your suggestion : >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., liminality, >>>>>>> double consciousness, third place, etc.). The post-colonial uptake >>>>>>> of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) within the sociocultural >>>>>>> theory is a very specific stance and this might be the moment for >>>>>>> that >>>>>> conversation as well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To focus on the *third space* as a VERY SPECIFIC stance. >>>>>>> I would like to become clear on the centrality of *witnessing* as >>>>>>> central or the re-search fades away. >>>>>>> Also terms such as *mutuality* contrasted with *reciprocity* or >>>>>>> *transactions*. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Testimonios as neither subjective [alone] or objective [alone] but a >>>>>>> hybrid MODE that is a form of witnessing. >>>>>>> I would also suggest the theme of *gift* as more than transaction or >>>>>>> echange [in continental philosophy traditions] is relevant. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is a *spirit* and a moral virtue within this form of >>>>>>> witnessing as *third space* that plays around with notions of >>>>>>> *trans* as moving across forms [horizons] as trans-versals [or >>>>> trans-verse-als] . >>>>>>> I have an intuition that this type of witnessing is radical, going >>>>>>> to the roots of our being human together. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria, I look forward to further re-search Larry >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For those of us working with Kris' sociocritical perspective, >>>>>>>> third space has been a valuable construct for thinking about >>>>>>>> collective learning zopeds and consciousness for that matter. It >>>>>>>> is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., >>>>>>>> liminality, double consciousness, third place, etc.). The >>>>>>>> post-colonial uptake of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) >>>>>>>> within the sociocultural theory is a very specific stance and this >>>>>>>> might be the moment for that conversation as >>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Aria >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of >>>>>>>> Illinois at Chicago >>>>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and >>>>>>>> Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Webpage: >>>>>>>> http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kris >>>>>>>> Gutierrez >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:56 PM >>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Annalisa, Manuel initiated the last uptake. (I think others have >>>>>>>> clarified that now :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mike C., Miguel Zavala, Larry Purss and I posted some thoughts >>>>>>>> before the holidays. For me it is useful to connect Manuel?s >>>>>>>> recent post to those earlier thoughts/conversations. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some very quick very unedited thoughts following up on Manuel?s post: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Michael G., Mike C. correctly points out that the >>>>>>>> testimonios/autobiographies were not research techniques but >>>>>>>> generative tools that were indeed a part of the interconnected set >>>>>>>> of practices that created a collective zoped?a third space if you >>>>> will. >>>>>>>> I try to elaborate this idea in the Scribner Lecture piece >>>>>>>> (sociocritical literacies). My own work on Third Space, the >>>>>>>> collective work of the instructional team of MSI, ongoing >>>>>>>> conversations with Mike C. and Yrjo over the years at the lab, and >>>>>>>> their work certainly informed this idea of a collective zoped, >>>>>>>> collective third space (See Engestr?m, 1987, 1994 in particular; >>>>>>>> Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993; Tuomi-Gr?hn & Engestr?m, 2003; Tuomi- >>>>>>>> Gr?hn, Engestr?m, & Young, 2003; Chaiklin, 2003, Moll, 1990; Moll >>>>>>>> & Greenberg, 1990 as key examples that certainly inform this work >>>>>>>> as >>>>>> well. >>>>>>> And LSV and Bakhtin are ever present). >>>>>>>> These, I think, are useful references, all cited in the article. >>>>>>>> Shirin Vossoughi?s recent MCA piece also is very relevant to this >>>>>>> discussion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some relevant excerpts from the sociocritical article, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "To illustrate these points and their relation to a collective >>>>>>>> Third Space, let us examine the MSLI more closely. >>>>>>>> The activity system, the MSLI, has a specific internal logic >>>>>>>> organized around expanding the students? sociohistorical and >>>>>>>> educational ecology through the collective imagining of a new >>>>>>>> educational and sociopolitical future. >>>>>>>> To avoid the ?interactional reductionism implicit in much >>>>>>>> Vygotskian-inspired research? (Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993, p. 284), >>>>>>>> the specific interactions and practices of the MSLI are understood >>>>>>>> as what Nicolopoulou and Cole call a ?genuinely collective reality? >>>>>> (p. 284). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here we see the [Migrant] institute as an example of the Third >>>>>>>> Space, a collective zo-ped, at the larger level of activity the >>>>>>>> object of which is the sociohistorical reconstruction of what it >>>>>>>> means to be a migrant student. >>>>>>>> This movement involves a process of becoming conscious ?historical >>>>>>> actors? >>>>>>>> (Espinoza, 2003) who invoke the past in order to re-mediate it so >>>>>>>> that it becomes a resource for current and future action (p. 154)." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Testimonios and their embodiment in Teatro del Oprimido (Boal?s >>>>>>>> Theatre of the Oppressed that Manuel introduced to us and the >>>>>>>> program and that he and Vossoughi elaborated) were key means of >>>>>>>> developing/inciting a new social and pedagogical imagination and >>>>>>>> for imagining new futures with/for the migrant students, their >>>>>>>> communities, and indeed for all of us, as Manuel so thoughtfully >>>>>>>> writes. Teatro served as a collective problem-solving space?a >>>>>>>> space where the playful imagination helped to make inequities and >>>>>>>> the roots of social problems visible, while providing an >>>>>>>> opportunity to re-frame events, re-mediate and enact an imagined >>>>>>>> future collectively (such as flying collectively/social dreaming). >>>>>>>> I hope Manuel and Shirin jump in and elaborate these thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Re: Research design: For me, Migrant was in Yrjo and Mike's >>>>>>>> approach, a formative experiment; what I term social design >>>>>>>> experiments?a designed based research approach that foregrounds >>>>>>>> equity, diversity, historicity, and re-mediation, for example. As >>>>>>>> Susan Jurow and I wrote and presented at the ICLS conference this >>>>>>>> summer (a piece that we expect will be part of a larger set of >>>>>>>> papers with Mike C., Yrjo and Annalisa, and Bill Penuel), social >>>>>>>> design experiments: aim to make possible a sustainable and >>>>>>>> dignified life for all humans; address the challenges of >>>>>>>> leveraging cultural diversity and reducing social inequality; and >>>>>>>> call for the co-design of new tools and futures with members of >>>>>>>> non-dominant communities, as but a few key design principles. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Absolutely, research as re-searching?searching for the answer >>>>>>>> to a question you have searched for repeatedly without success! >>>>>>>> Well said, Miguel Cole! Thanks, for your thoughts, Michael Glassman! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> more on sociocritical literacies, later. kris >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kris Gutierrez >>>>>>>> gutierkd@gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kris D. Guti?rrez >>>>>>>> Professor >>>>>>>> Graduate School of Education >>>>>>>> 5629 Tolman Hall #1670 >>>>>>>> University of California, Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-1670 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Distinguished Professor >>>>>>>> Learning Sciences and Literacy >>>>>>>> School of Education >>>>>>>> University of Colorado, Boulder >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sorry for being silly here, but I couldn't help but see that so >>>>>>>>> far on >>>>>>>> this thread, there have been appearances by: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mike, Annalisa, Michael, Luisa, and Miguel! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >>> >> > > > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sun Jan 4 10:24:26 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 10:24:26 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: <41F8E03E-7E4B-43F8-B435-C58D8AC8D0CB@gmail.com> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F90871D9@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <41F8E03E-7E4B-43F8-B435-C58D8AC8D0CB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <514C7B27-28EA-48A2-A9F6-8BD7EAD77BD5@gmail.com> Michael -- apologies, I mis-stated something. The sentence in paragraph on, "The ones who benefits are the individuals who have escaped it" should read, "The ones who benefit are the individuals who sit at the top of the ladder, either because they climbed it or were born there to begin with." I didn't think of the ladder metaphor until I wrote the second paragraph, and I should have gone back and corrected the first one. Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Jan 4, 2015, at 10:15 AM, Helena Worthen wrote: > Michael -- > > The examples you give of "the collective" are examples of the impact of education as social control. The individuals that benefited (and benefit today) from education as social control are not the ones being controlled. The ones who benefit are the individuals who have escaped it. The whole regime is what I am proposing as an example of a Pedagogy of the Oppressor. > > If one has experienced education as social control from a social position at the bottom of the ladder, then of course, looking critically at the whole regime is step one. Then the question is, do we want to help one individual climb the ladder? Or do we hope to change the ladder so that a whole bunch of people can escape? The pedagogy that works to help a whole group of people escape would be the Pedagogy of the Oppressed, as in Freire. > > H > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Jan 4, 2015, at 10:01 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > >> Hi Helena, >> >> I worry about this divide between psychological and social in education. Collective views of education can be at least as dangerous as collective education. In some sense it seems to me (right now) that one of the goals in education should be in giving individuals the capabilities to critically look at the collective and wonder why they are accepting it, why they are apart of it. I do think treating the individual simply as an information processing machine is dangerous as well - but the education of the oppressor is at its core an education of the collective, it is just a collective that benefits the individual. Last year I was thinking a lot about the beginnings of critical theory in Germany coinciding with the rise of the Nazis by Fromm and Adorno, later joined by Horkheimer. Their stance was confusion and despair at why so many workers were going against their own interests and buying into the collective of nationalistic belief systems (why they are so quick to join with the collective). I know he is not much talked about these days but Freud wondered the same thing. Thomas Frank has asked the same thing recently in the U.S. with his book "What's the matter with Kansas. Freire cites the work of Adorno and Fromm a good deal in Pedagogy of the Oppressed, making the argument that the reason people make these choice that seem so apparently against their own benefit is because of the way we are educated. We are educated to take our place in the collective. It's not that this is something we shouldn't do, but something we should think about before we do. >> >> I don't think No Child Left Behind was ever about teaching specific things - it was mostly about teaching them to be good little cogs in the machine and not fight back. >> >> Michael >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Helena Worthen [helenaworthen@gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 12:47 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >> >> Greg - >> >> Quickly, since the thread is moving on. I'm arguing that a "Pedagogy of the Oppressor" is what we've got going on throughout our educational system. At the elite heights, students learn how to rule the world; in the depths, the same pedagogy functions as social control. >> >> Here is a quote from Lave's article "teaching, as Learning, in Practice," which was published in MCA vol 3 no 3. The article is drawn from her acceptance speech at AERA when she got the Sylvia Scribner award. She says: >> >> "...theories that conceive of learning as a special universal mental process impoverish and mis-recognize it...Theories that reduce learning to individual mental capacity/activity in the last instance blame marginalized people for being marginal. Common theories of learning begin and end with individual (though these days they often nod at "the social" or "the environment" in between). Such theories are deeply concerned with individual differences, with notions of better and worse, more and less learning, and with comparison of these things across group-of-individuals... the logic that makes success exceptional but nonetheless characterizes lack of success as not normal won't do. A reconsideration of learning as a social, collective, rather than individual, psychological phenomenon offers the only way beyond the current state of affiars that i can envision at the present time." >> >> It sounds to me as if she is thinking of (although this was 1996) both No Child Left Behind and Race to the Top. Right? But she was writing just when the trend in that direction was getting going. the Clinton years, when people were intoxicated with the first vast applications of computer technology which would make testing so much easier. >> >> Helena >> >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> >> On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:50 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: >> >>> Helena, >>> I was hoping that others might be able to tell me that this has already been done. Seems like lots of people are in this kind of game but nobody has really talked about it explicitly (as far as I can tell - maybe some whiteness theorists but in a very circumscribed way). and I'm quite certain that no one has deal with it in a sufficiently sophisticated manner to be able to hedge off the kinds of concerns that Francine raises. >>> Anyone have any thoughts? Perhaps this should be a different thread? >>> And yes, Freire has this on his radar but not nearly explicitly enough to where it could be employed I. Some meaningful way in practice. >>> Greg >>> Ps, and yes my comment entirely sidesteps definitional issues of who counts as subaltern or not. That is a huge and mucky issue. But not sure it is worth getting bogged down in it... >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:24 PM, Helena Worthen wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg -- that's a great idea. I think is has been done, but without a label. Want to nominate an example? >>>> >>>> Helena >>>> >>>> >>>> Helena Worthen >>>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>>> >>>>> On Jan 3, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a >>>>> question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" >>>>> >>>>> Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. >>>>> >>>>> -greg >>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Miguel/Mike, >>>>>> >>>>>> I think we have a testimonio here. We have questions borne out of a >>>>>> traumatic historical and social episode (WWII), followed by a movement >>>>>> outward "going East," only to discover one's self "Dewey." The self becomes >>>>>> an allegory for the whole. It may seem that Spivak is saying translation is >>>>>> impossible, but I think a testimonio shows the possibility of translation. >>>>>> Thanks for this gift and happy new year! >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:23 PM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>> >>>>>> I inherited such questions as part of my family history and my coming to >>>>>> age during the period of post world war II decolonization, Aria, well >>>>>> before I travelled East, as you suggest. Interestingly, it was in going in >>>>>> East that I discovered Dewey.... such was the form of education that led to >>>>>> my phd. >>>>>> >>>>>> Concerning misleading translations. >>>>>> I have PLENTY of problems with issues of translating Vygotsky, in words >>>>>> and in practice! Ask any Russian or scholar whose knowledge of Russian was >>>>>> acquired after the age of 20! (Plenty right here on xmca, one I can see >>>>>> logged into gmail right now). There is a piece in MCA a while back on the >>>>>> perils of translating a key term involving eaching/learning/instruction >>>>>> that is part of an ongoing set of questions about the meaning of the term, >>>>>> zone of proximal development. >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter's note with the distinction between decolonial/postcolonial seems to >>>>>> pick up on some of the themes that various folks who participated in the >>>>>> Migrant program are making. Gotta check out wikipedia on third spaces. The >>>>>> metaphor sure has a lot of homes in a lot of discourse communities and I >>>>>> suspect that some translation will be needed! >>>>>> >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike, would you say that you have been seeking answers to these >>>>>>> questions by "going East"? I think Spivak would agree with the second >>>>>>> question. In "Translating into English" she talks about how >>>>>>> "generations of empiricist English translators have missed the point >>>>>>> with Marx's philosophical presuppositions, translated 'inhaltslos' as >>>>>>> 'slight in content' and thus made nonsense out of the entire >>>>>>> discussion of value. You may have had a smiliar experience translating >>>>>> Vygotsky. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here it is: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://przeklad.nazwa.pl/schowek/spivak2.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 1:07 PM >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria--- I had not read the Spivak article, although the question she >>>>>>> asks is one I have been asking myself for half a century. And, I would >>>>>>> add, under what conditions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I found the article here in case others share my ignorance. >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.mcgill.ca/files/crclaw-discourse/Can_the_subaltern_speak.pd >>>>>>> f >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Larry, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The specific stance that is amplified by the intersections of "third >>>>>>>> space" post-colonial theory, sociocultural theory, and "testimonio" >>>>>>>> is somewhat apparent in the language choice. There is no English >>>>>>>> equivalent because there cannot be an English equivalent. At least, >>>>>>>> there cannot be an "English-Only" equivalent. It represents a >>>>>>>> movement toward an indigenous stance on voice, agency, knowledge, >>>>>>>> certainty, validity, language choice, and learning. I say a "movement >>>>>> toward" >>>>>>>> because Spanish itself carries similar baggage especially within the >>>>>>>> Latin American context. This is the rationale for why some use the >>>>>>>> Aztec idea of Nepantla instead of "Third Space" (e.g., Rochelle >>>>>>>> Guiterrez, Gloria Anzaldua). "Testimonio" further complicates what >>>>>>>> it means for "subalterns" to "reclaim voice" through the dominant >>>>>> voice. >>>>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>>>>>> outside" the inscribed institutional roles, together in order to >>>>>>>> move "to the roots of our being human together." Spivak was >>>>>>>> specfically critiqueing "the Western intellectual" voice wondering >>>>>>>> if it truly could be a tool of liberation. It seems like a "core" >>>>>>>> identity question as we move through various historical >>>>>>>> entanglements seeking answers to ontological questions of self in >>>>>>>> relation to other. Also >>>>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Aria >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois >>>>>>>> at Chicago >>>>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action >>>>>>>> Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>>>>>> outside" the inscribed roles, together in order to move "to the >>>>>>>> roots of our being human together." It seems like a "core" identity >>>>>>>> question as we move through various historical entanglements seeking >>>>>>>> answers to ontological questions of self in relation to other. Also >>>>>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Aria >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry >>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+Purss >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:08 PM >>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Aria, >>>>>>>> I want to repeat and amplify your suggestion : >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., liminality, >>>>>>>> double consciousness, third place, etc.). The post-colonial uptake >>>>>>>> of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) within the sociocultural >>>>>>>> theory is a very specific stance and this might be the moment for >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>> conversation as well. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To focus on the *third space* as a VERY SPECIFIC stance. >>>>>>>> I would like to become clear on the centrality of *witnessing* as >>>>>>>> central or the re-search fades away. >>>>>>>> Also terms such as *mutuality* contrasted with *reciprocity* or >>>>>>>> *transactions*. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Testimonios as neither subjective [alone] or objective [alone] but a >>>>>>>> hybrid MODE that is a form of witnessing. >>>>>>>> I would also suggest the theme of *gift* as more than transaction or >>>>>>>> echange [in continental philosophy traditions] is relevant. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is a *spirit* and a moral virtue within this form of >>>>>>>> witnessing as *third space* that plays around with notions of >>>>>>>> *trans* as moving across forms [horizons] as trans-versals [or >>>>>> trans-verse-als] . >>>>>>>> I have an intuition that this type of witnessing is radical, going >>>>>>>> to the roots of our being human together. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Aria, I look forward to further re-search Larry >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For those of us working with Kris' sociocritical perspective, >>>>>>>>> third space has been a valuable construct for thinking about >>>>>>>>> collective learning zopeds and consciousness for that matter. It >>>>>>>>> is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., >>>>>>>>> liminality, double consciousness, third place, etc.). The >>>>>>>>> post-colonial uptake of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) >>>>>>>>> within the sociocultural theory is a very specific stance and this >>>>>>>>> might be the moment for that conversation as >>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Aria >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of >>>>>>>>> Illinois at Chicago >>>>>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and >>>>>>>>> Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Webpage: >>>>>>>>> http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kris >>>>>>>>> Gutierrez >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:56 PM >>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Annalisa, Manuel initiated the last uptake. (I think others have >>>>>>>>> clarified that now :) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mike C., Miguel Zavala, Larry Purss and I posted some thoughts >>>>>>>>> before the holidays. For me it is useful to connect Manuel?s >>>>>>>>> recent post to those earlier thoughts/conversations. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Some very quick very unedited thoughts following up on Manuel?s post: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Michael G., Mike C. correctly points out that the >>>>>>>>> testimonios/autobiographies were not research techniques but >>>>>>>>> generative tools that were indeed a part of the interconnected set >>>>>>>>> of practices that created a collective zoped?a third space if you >>>>>> will. >>>>>>>>> I try to elaborate this idea in the Scribner Lecture piece >>>>>>>>> (sociocritical literacies). My own work on Third Space, the >>>>>>>>> collective work of the instructional team of MSI, ongoing >>>>>>>>> conversations with Mike C. and Yrjo over the years at the lab, and >>>>>>>>> their work certainly informed this idea of a collective zoped, >>>>>>>>> collective third space (See Engestr?m, 1987, 1994 in particular; >>>>>>>>> Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993; Tuomi-Gr?hn & Engestr?m, 2003; Tuomi- >>>>>>>>> Gr?hn, Engestr?m, & Young, 2003; Chaiklin, 2003, Moll, 1990; Moll >>>>>>>>> & Greenberg, 1990 as key examples that certainly inform this work >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>> And LSV and Bakhtin are ever present). >>>>>>>>> These, I think, are useful references, all cited in the article. >>>>>>>>> Shirin Vossoughi?s recent MCA piece also is very relevant to this >>>>>>>> discussion. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Some relevant excerpts from the sociocritical article, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "To illustrate these points and their relation to a collective >>>>>>>>> Third Space, let us examine the MSLI more closely. >>>>>>>>> The activity system, the MSLI, has a specific internal logic >>>>>>>>> organized around expanding the students? sociohistorical and >>>>>>>>> educational ecology through the collective imagining of a new >>>>>>>>> educational and sociopolitical future. >>>>>>>>> To avoid the ?interactional reductionism implicit in much >>>>>>>>> Vygotskian-inspired research? (Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993, p. 284), >>>>>>>>> the specific interactions and practices of the MSLI are understood >>>>>>>>> as what Nicolopoulou and Cole call a ?genuinely collective reality? >>>>>>> (p. 284). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Here we see the [Migrant] institute as an example of the Third >>>>>>>>> Space, a collective zo-ped, at the larger level of activity the >>>>>>>>> object of which is the sociohistorical reconstruction of what it >>>>>>>>> means to be a migrant student. >>>>>>>>> This movement involves a process of becoming conscious ?historical >>>>>>>> actors? >>>>>>>>> (Espinoza, 2003) who invoke the past in order to re-mediate it so >>>>>>>>> that it becomes a resource for current and future action (p. 154)." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Testimonios and their embodiment in Teatro del Oprimido (Boal?s >>>>>>>>> Theatre of the Oppressed that Manuel introduced to us and the >>>>>>>>> program and that he and Vossoughi elaborated) were key means of >>>>>>>>> developing/inciting a new social and pedagogical imagination and >>>>>>>>> for imagining new futures with/for the migrant students, their >>>>>>>>> communities, and indeed for all of us, as Manuel so thoughtfully >>>>>>>>> writes. Teatro served as a collective problem-solving space?a >>>>>>>>> space where the playful imagination helped to make inequities and >>>>>>>>> the roots of social problems visible, while providing an >>>>>>>>> opportunity to re-frame events, re-mediate and enact an imagined >>>>>>>>> future collectively (such as flying collectively/social dreaming). >>>>>>>>> I hope Manuel and Shirin jump in and elaborate these thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Re: Research design: For me, Migrant was in Yrjo and Mike's >>>>>>>>> approach, a formative experiment; what I term social design >>>>>>>>> experiments?a designed based research approach that foregrounds >>>>>>>>> equity, diversity, historicity, and re-mediation, for example. As >>>>>>>>> Susan Jurow and I wrote and presented at the ICLS conference this >>>>>>>>> summer (a piece that we expect will be part of a larger set of >>>>>>>>> papers with Mike C., Yrjo and Annalisa, and Bill Penuel), social >>>>>>>>> design experiments: aim to make possible a sustainable and >>>>>>>>> dignified life for all humans; address the challenges of >>>>>>>>> leveraging cultural diversity and reducing social inequality; and >>>>>>>>> call for the co-design of new tools and futures with members of >>>>>>>>> non-dominant communities, as but a few key design principles. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Absolutely, research as re-searching?searching for the answer >>>>>>>>> to a question you have searched for repeatedly without success! >>>>>>>>> Well said, Miguel Cole! Thanks, for your thoughts, Michael Glassman! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> more on sociocritical literacies, later. kris >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kris Gutierrez >>>>>>>>> gutierkd@gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kris D. Guti?rrez >>>>>>>>> Professor >>>>>>>>> Graduate School of Education >>>>>>>>> 5629 Tolman Hall #1670 >>>>>>>>> University of California, Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-1670 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Distinguished Professor >>>>>>>>> Learning Sciences and Literacy >>>>>>>>> School of Education >>>>>>>>> University of Colorado, Boulder >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hello! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sorry for being silly here, but I couldn't help but see that so >>>>>>>>>> far on >>>>>>>>> this thread, there have been appearances by: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mike, Annalisa, Michael, Luisa, and Miguel! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jan 4 10:30:01 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 10:30:01 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Helena, Your comment... "the logic that makes success exceptional": [at elite centers of learning] How do we move beyond this social *fact* that the desire and wish to be "exceptional" is the current "social dream" of many who participate in "social dreaming"? When reading about the "social dreaming" of "third spaces" the "designers" of this social dream often work from these elite centers of learning. I assumethat where Lave gave her address she was also speaking to a group of "exceptional" learners who arrived to listen to her from elite centers of learning. Being "exceptional" [rather than ordinary] is one of the main values perpetuated at "elite" centers. How do we come to value "ordinary" learning if the centers from which social dreaming is often developed are places of exceptionality. THIS TYPE OF LOGIC seems to be a particularly difficult notion to untangle when the knots themselves are developed at elite centers of learning. Elite centers also become the forum for distributing the *truth* of many social dreams [and often give the social dreams legitimacy] Larry On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Helena Worthen wrote: > Greg - > > Quickly, since the thread is moving on. I'm arguing that a "Pedagogy of > the Oppressor" is what we've got going on throughout our educational > system. At the elite heights, students learn how to rule the world; in the > depths, the same pedagogy functions as social control. > > Here is a quote from Lave's article "teaching, as Learning, in Practice," > which was published in MCA vol 3 no 3. The article is drawn from her > acceptance speech at AERA when she got the Sylvia Scribner award. She says: > > "...theories that conceive of learning as a special universal mental > process impoverish and mis-recognize it...Theories that reduce learning to > individual mental capacity/activity in the last instance blame marginalized > people for being marginal. Common theories of learning begin and end with > individual (though these days they often nod at "the social" or "the > environment" in between). Such theories are deeply concerned with > individual differences, with notions of better and worse, more and less > learning, and with comparison of these things across > group-of-individuals... the logic that makes success exceptional but > nonetheless characterizes lack of success as not normal won't do. A > reconsideration of learning as a social, collective, rather than > individual, psychological phenomenon offers the only way beyond the current > state of affiars that i can envision at the present time." > > It sounds to me as if she is thinking of (although this was 1996) both No > Child Left Behind and Race to the Top. Right? But she was writing just when > the trend in that direction was getting going. the Clinton years, when > people were intoxicated with the first vast applications of computer > technology which would make testing so much easier. > > Helena > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:50 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > > > Helena, > > I was hoping that others might be able to tell me that this has already > been done. Seems like lots of people are in this kind of game but nobody > has really talked about it explicitly (as far as I can tell - maybe some > whiteness theorists but in a very circumscribed way). and I'm quite certain > that no one has deal with it in a sufficiently sophisticated manner to be > able to hedge off the kinds of concerns that Francine raises. > > Anyone have any thoughts? Perhaps this should be a different thread? > > And yes, Freire has this on his radar but not nearly explicitly enough > to where it could be employed I. Some meaningful way in practice. > > Greg > > Ps, and yes my comment entirely sidesteps definitional issues of who > counts as subaltern or not. That is a huge and mucky issue. But not sure > it is worth getting bogged down in it... > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:24 PM, Helena Worthen > wrote: > >> > >> Greg -- that's a great idea. I think is has been done, but without a > label. Want to nominate an example? > >> > >> Helena > >> > >> > >> Helena Worthen > >> helenaworthen@gmail.com > >> > >>> On Jan 3, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >>> > >>> Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a > >>> question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" > >>> > >>> Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. > >>> > >>> -greg > >>> > >>>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Miguel/Mike, > >>>> > >>>> I think we have a testimonio here. We have questions borne out of a > >>>> traumatic historical and social episode (WWII), followed by a movement > >>>> outward "going East," only to discover one's self "Dewey." The self > becomes > >>>> an allegory for the whole. It may seem that Spivak is saying > translation is > >>>> impossible, but I think a testimonio shows the possibility of > translation. > >>>> Thanks for this gift and happy new year! > >>>> > >>>> Aria > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:23 PM > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>> > >>>> I inherited such questions as part of my family history and my coming > to > >>>> age during the period of post world war II decolonization, Aria, well > >>>> before I travelled East, as you suggest. Interestingly, it was in > going in > >>>> East that I discovered Dewey.... such was the form of education that > led to > >>>> my phd. > >>>> > >>>> Concerning misleading translations. > >>>> I have PLENTY of problems with issues of translating Vygotsky, in > words > >>>> and in practice! Ask any Russian or scholar whose knowledge of > Russian was > >>>> acquired after the age of 20! (Plenty right here on xmca, one I can > see > >>>> logged into gmail right now). There is a piece in MCA a while back on > the > >>>> perils of translating a key term involving > eaching/learning/instruction > >>>> that is part of an ongoing set of questions about the meaning of the > term, > >>>> zone of proximal development. > >>>> > >>>> Peter's note with the distinction between decolonial/postcolonial > seems to > >>>> pick up on some of the themes that various folks who participated in > the > >>>> Migrant program are making. Gotta check out wikipedia on third > spaces. The > >>>> metaphor sure has a lot of homes in a lot of discourse communities > and I > >>>> suspect that some translation will be needed! > >>>> > >>>> mike > >>>> > >>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Aria Razfar > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Mike, would you say that you have been seeking answers to these > >>>>> questions by "going East"? I think Spivak would agree with the second > >>>>> question. In "Translating into English" she talks about how > >>>>> "generations of empiricist English translators have missed the point > >>>>> with Marx's philosophical presuppositions, translated 'inhaltslos' as > >>>>> 'slight in content' and thus made nonsense out of the entire > >>>>> discussion of value. You may have had a smiliar experience > translating > >>>> Vygotsky. > >>>>> > >>>>> Here it is: > >>>>> > >>>>> http://przeklad.nazwa.pl/schowek/spivak2.pdf > >>>>> > >>>>> Aria > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 1:07 PM > >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>>> > >>>>> Aria--- I had not read the Spivak article, although the question she > >>>>> asks is one I have been asking myself for half a century. And, I > would > >>>>> add, under what conditions? > >>>>> > >>>>> I found the article here in case others share my ignorance. > >>>>> mike > >>>>> > >>>>> > http://www.mcgill.ca/files/crclaw-discourse/Can_the_subaltern_speak.pd > >>>>> f > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Aria Razfar > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Larry, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The specific stance that is amplified by the intersections of "third > >>>>>> space" post-colonial theory, sociocultural theory, and "testimonio" > >>>>>> is somewhat apparent in the language choice. There is no English > >>>>>> equivalent because there cannot be an English equivalent. At least, > >>>>>> there cannot be an "English-Only" equivalent. It represents a > >>>>>> movement toward an indigenous stance on voice, agency, knowledge, > >>>>>> certainty, validity, language choice, and learning. I say a > "movement > >>>> toward" > >>>>>> because Spanish itself carries similar baggage especially within the > >>>>>> Latin American context. This is the rationale for why some use the > >>>>>> Aztec idea of Nepantla instead of "Third Space" (e.g., Rochelle > >>>>>> Guiterrez, Gloria Anzaldua). "Testimonio" further complicates what > >>>>>> it means for "subalterns" to "reclaim voice" through the dominant > >>>> voice. > >>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the > >>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step > >>>>>> outside" the inscribed institutional roles, together in order to > >>>>>> move "to the roots of our being human together." Spivak was > >>>>>> specfically critiqueing "the Western intellectual" voice wondering > >>>>>> if it truly could be a tool of liberation. It seems like a "core" > >>>>>> identity question as we move through various historical > >>>>>> entanglements seeking answers to ontological questions of self in > >>>>>> relation to other. Also > >>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Aria > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > >>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of > >>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois > >>>>>> at Chicago > >>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > >>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action > >>>>>> Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > >>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 > >>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the > >>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step > >>>>>> outside" the inscribed roles, together in order to move "to the > >>>>>> roots of our being human together." It seems like a "core" identity > >>>>>> question as we move through various historical entanglements seeking > >>>>>> answers to ontological questions of self in relation to other. Also > >>>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Aria > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry > >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+Purss > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:08 PM > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Aria, > >>>>>> I want to repeat and amplify your suggestion : > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its > >>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., liminality, > >>>>>> double consciousness, third place, etc.). The post-colonial uptake > >>>>>> of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) within the sociocultural > >>>>>> theory is a very specific stance and this might be the moment for > >>>>>> that > >>>>> conversation as well. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> To focus on the *third space* as a VERY SPECIFIC stance. > >>>>>> I would like to become clear on the centrality of *witnessing* as > >>>>>> central or the re-search fades away. > >>>>>> Also terms such as *mutuality* contrasted with *reciprocity* or > >>>>>> *transactions*. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Testimonios as neither subjective [alone] or objective [alone] but a > >>>>>> hybrid MODE that is a form of witnessing. > >>>>>> I would also suggest the theme of *gift* as more than transaction or > >>>>>> echange [in continental philosophy traditions] is relevant. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There is a *spirit* and a moral virtue within this form of > >>>>>> witnessing as *third space* that plays around with notions of > >>>>>> *trans* as moving across forms [horizons] as trans-versals [or > >>>> trans-verse-als] . > >>>>>> I have an intuition that this type of witnessing is radical, going > >>>>>> to the roots of our being human together. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Aria, I look forward to further re-search Larry > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Aria Razfar > wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> For those of us working with Kris' sociocritical perspective, > >>>>>>> third space has been a valuable construct for thinking about > >>>>>>> collective learning zopeds and consciousness for that matter. It > >>>>>>> is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its > >>>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., > >>>>>>> liminality, double consciousness, third place, etc.). The > >>>>>>> post-colonial uptake of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) > >>>>>>> within the sociocultural theory is a very specific stance and this > >>>>>>> might be the moment for that conversation as > >>>>>> well. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Aria > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > >>>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of > >>>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of > >>>>>>> Illinois at Chicago > >>>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > >>>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and > >>>>>>> Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Webpage: > >>>>>>> http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > >>>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 > >>>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kris > >>>>>>> Gutierrez > >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:56 PM > >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Annalisa, Manuel initiated the last uptake. (I think others have > >>>>>>> clarified that now :) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Mike C., Miguel Zavala, Larry Purss and I posted some thoughts > >>>>>>> before the holidays. For me it is useful to connect Manuel?s > >>>>>>> recent post to those earlier thoughts/conversations. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Some very quick very unedited thoughts following up on Manuel?s > post: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Michael G., Mike C. correctly points out that the > >>>>>>> testimonios/autobiographies were not research techniques but > >>>>>>> generative tools that were indeed a part of the interconnected set > >>>>>>> of practices that created a collective zoped?a third space if you > >>>> will. > >>>>>>> I try to elaborate this idea in the Scribner Lecture piece > >>>>>>> (sociocritical literacies). My own work on Third Space, the > >>>>>>> collective work of the instructional team of MSI, ongoing > >>>>>>> conversations with Mike C. and Yrjo over the years at the lab, and > >>>>>>> their work certainly informed this idea of a collective zoped, > >>>>>>> collective third space (See Engestr?m, 1987, 1994 in particular; > >>>>>>> Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993; Tuomi-Gr?hn & Engestr?m, 2003; Tuomi- > >>>>>>> Gr?hn, Engestr?m, & Young, 2003; Chaiklin, 2003, Moll, 1990; Moll > >>>>>>> & Greenberg, 1990 as key examples that certainly inform this work > >>>>>>> as > >>>>> well. > >>>>>> And LSV and Bakhtin are ever present). > >>>>>>> These, I think, are useful references, all cited in the article. > >>>>>>> Shirin Vossoughi?s recent MCA piece also is very relevant to this > >>>>>> discussion. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Some relevant excerpts from the sociocritical article, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> "To illustrate these points and their relation to a collective > >>>>>>> Third Space, let us examine the MSLI more closely. > >>>>>>> The activity system, the MSLI, has a specific internal logic > >>>>>>> organized around expanding the students? sociohistorical and > >>>>>>> educational ecology through the collective imagining of a new > >>>>>>> educational and sociopolitical future. > >>>>>>> To avoid the ?interactional reductionism implicit in much > >>>>>>> Vygotskian-inspired research? (Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993, p. 284), > >>>>>>> the specific interactions and practices of the MSLI are understood > >>>>>>> as what Nicolopoulou and Cole call a ?genuinely collective reality? > >>>>> (p. 284). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Here we see the [Migrant] institute as an example of the Third > >>>>>>> Space, a collective zo-ped, at the larger level of activity the > >>>>>>> object of which is the sociohistorical reconstruction of what it > >>>>>>> means to be a migrant student. > >>>>>>> This movement involves a process of becoming conscious ?historical > >>>>>> actors? > >>>>>>> (Espinoza, 2003) who invoke the past in order to re-mediate it so > >>>>>>> that it becomes a resource for current and future action (p. 154)." > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Testimonios and their embodiment in Teatro del Oprimido (Boal?s > >>>>>>> Theatre of the Oppressed that Manuel introduced to us and the > >>>>>>> program and that he and Vossoughi elaborated) were key means of > >>>>>>> developing/inciting a new social and pedagogical imagination and > >>>>>>> for imagining new futures with/for the migrant students, their > >>>>>>> communities, and indeed for all of us, as Manuel so thoughtfully > >>>>>>> writes. Teatro served as a collective problem-solving space?a > >>>>>>> space where the playful imagination helped to make inequities and > >>>>>>> the roots of social problems visible, while providing an > >>>>>>> opportunity to re-frame events, re-mediate and enact an imagined > >>>>>>> future collectively (such as flying collectively/social dreaming). > >>>>>>> I hope Manuel and Shirin jump in and elaborate these thoughts. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Re: Research design: For me, Migrant was in Yrjo and Mike's > >>>>>>> approach, a formative experiment; what I term social design > >>>>>>> experiments?a designed based research approach that foregrounds > >>>>>>> equity, diversity, historicity, and re-mediation, for example. As > >>>>>>> Susan Jurow and I wrote and presented at the ICLS conference this > >>>>>>> summer (a piece that we expect will be part of a larger set of > >>>>>>> papers with Mike C., Yrjo and Annalisa, and Bill Penuel), social > >>>>>>> design experiments: aim to make possible a sustainable and > >>>>>>> dignified life for all humans; address the challenges of > >>>>>>> leveraging cultural diversity and reducing social inequality; and > >>>>>>> call for the co-design of new tools and futures with members of > >>>>>>> non-dominant communities, as but a few key design principles. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Absolutely, research as re-searching?searching for the answer > >>>>>>> to a question you have searched for repeatedly without success! > >>>>>>> Well said, Miguel Cole! Thanks, for your thoughts, Michael > Glassman! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> more on sociocritical literacies, later. kris > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Kris Gutierrez > >>>>>>> gutierkd@gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Kris D. Guti?rrez > >>>>>>> Professor > >>>>>>> Graduate School of Education > >>>>>>> 5629 Tolman Hall #1670 > >>>>>>> University of California, Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-1670 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Distinguished Professor > >>>>>>> Learning Sciences and Literacy > >>>>>>> School of Education > >>>>>>> University of Colorado, Boulder > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Annalisa Aguilar > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hello! > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Sorry for being silly here, but I couldn't help but see that so > >>>>>>>> far on > >>>>>>> this thread, there have been appearances by: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> mike, Annalisa, Michael, Luisa, and Miguel! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>> Assistant Professor > >>> Department of Anthropology > >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>> Brigham Young University > >>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >> > >> > > > > > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sun Jan 4 11:58:15 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 11:58:15 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Larry (and I know I'm violating my principle of not addressing people by name): The comment is part of a quote from Lave. Yes, she was addressing the elite -- mostly professors of one sort or another, and selected from among those professors who could get funding to go to AERA. But good-hearted people, nonetheless! You're right about how hard it is to untangle the knots into which different pedagogies are tied. One way is to think of the whole regime as an activity system, which is defined by its purpose. Simpler, and probably better, is to ask what I've heard called "the Freireian questions": "For whom, by whom, and for what purpose?" I think I heard Peter McClaren use these questions. I actually saw them posted on the wall of the union hall of the teachers' union in Mexico City -- one of the Coordinadora (dissenting) unions; dissenting from the neoliberal project of privatization. (Note that the murder of the 43 student teachers is all part of this movement and it's suppression). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinadora_Nacional_de_Trabajadores_de_la_Educaci?n I work in a field that distinguishes itself explicitly from the Pedagogy of the Oppressor regime. (I have to laugh when I write this -- it sounds pretty stiff!). The people I teach are likely to have long since given up on the "social dream" that you speak of, since they've seen their real wages go down and their labor rights attacked. Labor education is "For whom" -- working people who want better, safer jobs; "By whom" -- often, people like me with both teaching and union experience, but better yet, educated union activists teaching each other, " and "For what purpose?" -- to build enough collective power and capacity to make changes in their own workplaces first, in society second. It's not something anyone can do alone, so the whole project is collective. I'm happy to change the subject line if anyone else wants to untangle the Pedagogy of the Oppressor notion. Looking back, I think the idea was first uttered as a joke -- that I decided to take seriously. H Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Jan 4, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > Helena, > Your comment... > > "the logic that makes success exceptional": [at elite centers of learning] > > How do we move beyond this social *fact* that the desire and wish to be > "exceptional" is the current "social dream" of many who participate in > "social dreaming"? When reading about the "social dreaming" of "third > spaces" the "designers" of this social dream often work from these elite > centers of learning. > I assumethat where Lave gave her address she was also speaking to a group > of "exceptional" learners who arrived to listen to her from elite centers > of learning. > > Being "exceptional" [rather than ordinary] is one of the main values > perpetuated at "elite" centers. How do we come to value "ordinary" learning > if the centers from which social dreaming is often developed are places of > exceptionality. > > THIS TYPE OF LOGIC seems to be a particularly difficult notion to untangle > when the knots themselves are developed at elite centers of learning. Elite > centers also become the forum for distributing the *truth* of many social > dreams [and often give the social dreams legitimacy] > > Larry > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Helena Worthen > wrote: > >> Greg - >> >> Quickly, since the thread is moving on. I'm arguing that a "Pedagogy of >> the Oppressor" is what we've got going on throughout our educational >> system. At the elite heights, students learn how to rule the world; in the >> depths, the same pedagogy functions as social control. >> >> Here is a quote from Lave's article "teaching, as Learning, in Practice," >> which was published in MCA vol 3 no 3. The article is drawn from her >> acceptance speech at AERA when she got the Sylvia Scribner award. She says: >> >> "...theories that conceive of learning as a special universal mental >> process impoverish and mis-recognize it...Theories that reduce learning to >> individual mental capacity/activity in the last instance blame marginalized >> people for being marginal. Common theories of learning begin and end with >> individual (though these days they often nod at "the social" or "the >> environment" in between). Such theories are deeply concerned with >> individual differences, with notions of better and worse, more and less >> learning, and with comparison of these things across >> group-of-individuals... the logic that makes success exceptional but >> nonetheless characterizes lack of success as not normal won't do. A >> reconsideration of learning as a social, collective, rather than >> individual, psychological phenomenon offers the only way beyond the current >> state of affiars that i can envision at the present time." >> >> It sounds to me as if she is thinking of (although this was 1996) both No >> Child Left Behind and Race to the Top. Right? But she was writing just when >> the trend in that direction was getting going. the Clinton years, when >> people were intoxicated with the first vast applications of computer >> technology which would make testing so much easier. >> >> Helena >> >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> >> On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:50 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: >> >>> Helena, >>> I was hoping that others might be able to tell me that this has already >> been done. Seems like lots of people are in this kind of game but nobody >> has really talked about it explicitly (as far as I can tell - maybe some >> whiteness theorists but in a very circumscribed way). and I'm quite certain >> that no one has deal with it in a sufficiently sophisticated manner to be >> able to hedge off the kinds of concerns that Francine raises. >>> Anyone have any thoughts? Perhaps this should be a different thread? >>> And yes, Freire has this on his radar but not nearly explicitly enough >> to where it could be employed I. Some meaningful way in practice. >>> Greg >>> Ps, and yes my comment entirely sidesteps definitional issues of who >> counts as subaltern or not. That is a huge and mucky issue. But not sure >> it is worth getting bogged down in it... >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:24 PM, Helena Worthen >> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg -- that's a great idea. I think is has been done, but without a >> label. Want to nominate an example? >>>> >>>> Helena >>>> >>>> >>>> Helena Worthen >>>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>>> >>>>> On Jan 3, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a >>>>> question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" >>>>> >>>>> Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. >>>>> >>>>> -greg >>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Miguel/Mike, >>>>>> >>>>>> I think we have a testimonio here. We have questions borne out of a >>>>>> traumatic historical and social episode (WWII), followed by a movement >>>>>> outward "going East," only to discover one's self "Dewey." The self >> becomes >>>>>> an allegory for the whole. It may seem that Spivak is saying >> translation is >>>>>> impossible, but I think a testimonio shows the possibility of >> translation. >>>>>> Thanks for this gift and happy new year! >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:23 PM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>> >>>>>> I inherited such questions as part of my family history and my coming >> to >>>>>> age during the period of post world war II decolonization, Aria, well >>>>>> before I travelled East, as you suggest. Interestingly, it was in >> going in >>>>>> East that I discovered Dewey.... such was the form of education that >> led to >>>>>> my phd. >>>>>> >>>>>> Concerning misleading translations. >>>>>> I have PLENTY of problems with issues of translating Vygotsky, in >> words >>>>>> and in practice! Ask any Russian or scholar whose knowledge of >> Russian was >>>>>> acquired after the age of 20! (Plenty right here on xmca, one I can >> see >>>>>> logged into gmail right now). There is a piece in MCA a while back on >> the >>>>>> perils of translating a key term involving >> eaching/learning/instruction >>>>>> that is part of an ongoing set of questions about the meaning of the >> term, >>>>>> zone of proximal development. >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter's note with the distinction between decolonial/postcolonial >> seems to >>>>>> pick up on some of the themes that various folks who participated in >> the >>>>>> Migrant program are making. Gotta check out wikipedia on third >> spaces. The >>>>>> metaphor sure has a lot of homes in a lot of discourse communities >> and I >>>>>> suspect that some translation will be needed! >>>>>> >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Aria Razfar >> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike, would you say that you have been seeking answers to these >>>>>>> questions by "going East"? I think Spivak would agree with the second >>>>>>> question. In "Translating into English" she talks about how >>>>>>> "generations of empiricist English translators have missed the point >>>>>>> with Marx's philosophical presuppositions, translated 'inhaltslos' as >>>>>>> 'slight in content' and thus made nonsense out of the entire >>>>>>> discussion of value. You may have had a smiliar experience >> translating >>>>>> Vygotsky. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here it is: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://przeklad.nazwa.pl/schowek/spivak2.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 1:07 PM >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria--- I had not read the Spivak article, although the question she >>>>>>> asks is one I have been asking myself for half a century. And, I >> would >>>>>>> add, under what conditions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I found the article here in case others share my ignorance. >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> http://www.mcgill.ca/files/crclaw-discourse/Can_the_subaltern_speak.pd >>>>>>> f >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Aria Razfar >> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Larry, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The specific stance that is amplified by the intersections of "third >>>>>>>> space" post-colonial theory, sociocultural theory, and "testimonio" >>>>>>>> is somewhat apparent in the language choice. There is no English >>>>>>>> equivalent because there cannot be an English equivalent. At least, >>>>>>>> there cannot be an "English-Only" equivalent. It represents a >>>>>>>> movement toward an indigenous stance on voice, agency, knowledge, >>>>>>>> certainty, validity, language choice, and learning. I say a >> "movement >>>>>> toward" >>>>>>>> because Spanish itself carries similar baggage especially within the >>>>>>>> Latin American context. This is the rationale for why some use the >>>>>>>> Aztec idea of Nepantla instead of "Third Space" (e.g., Rochelle >>>>>>>> Guiterrez, Gloria Anzaldua). "Testimonio" further complicates what >>>>>>>> it means for "subalterns" to "reclaim voice" through the dominant >>>>>> voice. >>>>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>>>>>> outside" the inscribed institutional roles, together in order to >>>>>>>> move "to the roots of our being human together." Spivak was >>>>>>>> specfically critiqueing "the Western intellectual" voice wondering >>>>>>>> if it truly could be a tool of liberation. It seems like a "core" >>>>>>>> identity question as we move through various historical >>>>>>>> entanglements seeking answers to ontological questions of self in >>>>>>>> relation to other. Also >>>>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Aria >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois >>>>>>>> at Chicago >>>>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action >>>>>>>> Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>>>>>> outside" the inscribed roles, together in order to move "to the >>>>>>>> roots of our being human together." It seems like a "core" identity >>>>>>>> question as we move through various historical entanglements seeking >>>>>>>> answers to ontological questions of self in relation to other. Also >>>>>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Aria >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry >>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+Purss >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:08 PM >>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Aria, >>>>>>>> I want to repeat and amplify your suggestion : >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., liminality, >>>>>>>> double consciousness, third place, etc.). The post-colonial uptake >>>>>>>> of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) within the sociocultural >>>>>>>> theory is a very specific stance and this might be the moment for >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>> conversation as well. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To focus on the *third space* as a VERY SPECIFIC stance. >>>>>>>> I would like to become clear on the centrality of *witnessing* as >>>>>>>> central or the re-search fades away. >>>>>>>> Also terms such as *mutuality* contrasted with *reciprocity* or >>>>>>>> *transactions*. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Testimonios as neither subjective [alone] or objective [alone] but a >>>>>>>> hybrid MODE that is a form of witnessing. >>>>>>>> I would also suggest the theme of *gift* as more than transaction or >>>>>>>> echange [in continental philosophy traditions] is relevant. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is a *spirit* and a moral virtue within this form of >>>>>>>> witnessing as *third space* that plays around with notions of >>>>>>>> *trans* as moving across forms [horizons] as trans-versals [or >>>>>> trans-verse-als] . >>>>>>>> I have an intuition that this type of witnessing is radical, going >>>>>>>> to the roots of our being human together. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Aria, I look forward to further re-search Larry >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Aria Razfar >> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For those of us working with Kris' sociocritical perspective, >>>>>>>>> third space has been a valuable construct for thinking about >>>>>>>>> collective learning zopeds and consciousness for that matter. It >>>>>>>>> is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., >>>>>>>>> liminality, double consciousness, third place, etc.). The >>>>>>>>> post-colonial uptake of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) >>>>>>>>> within the sociocultural theory is a very specific stance and this >>>>>>>>> might be the moment for that conversation as >>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Aria >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of >>>>>>>>> Illinois at Chicago >>>>>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and >>>>>>>>> Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Webpage: >>>>>>>>> http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kris >>>>>>>>> Gutierrez >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:56 PM >>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Annalisa, Manuel initiated the last uptake. (I think others have >>>>>>>>> clarified that now :) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mike C., Miguel Zavala, Larry Purss and I posted some thoughts >>>>>>>>> before the holidays. For me it is useful to connect Manuel?s >>>>>>>>> recent post to those earlier thoughts/conversations. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Some very quick very unedited thoughts following up on Manuel?s >> post: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Michael G., Mike C. correctly points out that the >>>>>>>>> testimonios/autobiographies were not research techniques but >>>>>>>>> generative tools that were indeed a part of the interconnected set >>>>>>>>> of practices that created a collective zoped?a third space if you >>>>>> will. >>>>>>>>> I try to elaborate this idea in the Scribner Lecture piece >>>>>>>>> (sociocritical literacies). My own work on Third Space, the >>>>>>>>> collective work of the instructional team of MSI, ongoing >>>>>>>>> conversations with Mike C. and Yrjo over the years at the lab, and >>>>>>>>> their work certainly informed this idea of a collective zoped, >>>>>>>>> collective third space (See Engestr?m, 1987, 1994 in particular; >>>>>>>>> Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993; Tuomi-Gr?hn & Engestr?m, 2003; Tuomi- >>>>>>>>> Gr?hn, Engestr?m, & Young, 2003; Chaiklin, 2003, Moll, 1990; Moll >>>>>>>>> & Greenberg, 1990 as key examples that certainly inform this work >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>> And LSV and Bakhtin are ever present). >>>>>>>>> These, I think, are useful references, all cited in the article. >>>>>>>>> Shirin Vossoughi?s recent MCA piece also is very relevant to this >>>>>>>> discussion. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Some relevant excerpts from the sociocritical article, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "To illustrate these points and their relation to a collective >>>>>>>>> Third Space, let us examine the MSLI more closely. >>>>>>>>> The activity system, the MSLI, has a specific internal logic >>>>>>>>> organized around expanding the students? sociohistorical and >>>>>>>>> educational ecology through the collective imagining of a new >>>>>>>>> educational and sociopolitical future. >>>>>>>>> To avoid the ?interactional reductionism implicit in much >>>>>>>>> Vygotskian-inspired research? (Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993, p. 284), >>>>>>>>> the specific interactions and practices of the MSLI are understood >>>>>>>>> as what Nicolopoulou and Cole call a ?genuinely collective reality? >>>>>>> (p. 284). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Here we see the [Migrant] institute as an example of the Third >>>>>>>>> Space, a collective zo-ped, at the larger level of activity the >>>>>>>>> object of which is the sociohistorical reconstruction of what it >>>>>>>>> means to be a migrant student. >>>>>>>>> This movement involves a process of becoming conscious ?historical >>>>>>>> actors? >>>>>>>>> (Espinoza, 2003) who invoke the past in order to re-mediate it so >>>>>>>>> that it becomes a resource for current and future action (p. 154)." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Testimonios and their embodiment in Teatro del Oprimido (Boal?s >>>>>>>>> Theatre of the Oppressed that Manuel introduced to us and the >>>>>>>>> program and that he and Vossoughi elaborated) were key means of >>>>>>>>> developing/inciting a new social and pedagogical imagination and >>>>>>>>> for imagining new futures with/for the migrant students, their >>>>>>>>> communities, and indeed for all of us, as Manuel so thoughtfully >>>>>>>>> writes. Teatro served as a collective problem-solving space?a >>>>>>>>> space where the playful imagination helped to make inequities and >>>>>>>>> the roots of social problems visible, while providing an >>>>>>>>> opportunity to re-frame events, re-mediate and enact an imagined >>>>>>>>> future collectively (such as flying collectively/social dreaming). >>>>>>>>> I hope Manuel and Shirin jump in and elaborate these thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Re: Research design: For me, Migrant was in Yrjo and Mike's >>>>>>>>> approach, a formative experiment; what I term social design >>>>>>>>> experiments?a designed based research approach that foregrounds >>>>>>>>> equity, diversity, historicity, and re-mediation, for example. As >>>>>>>>> Susan Jurow and I wrote and presented at the ICLS conference this >>>>>>>>> summer (a piece that we expect will be part of a larger set of >>>>>>>>> papers with Mike C., Yrjo and Annalisa, and Bill Penuel), social >>>>>>>>> design experiments: aim to make possible a sustainable and >>>>>>>>> dignified life for all humans; address the challenges of >>>>>>>>> leveraging cultural diversity and reducing social inequality; and >>>>>>>>> call for the co-design of new tools and futures with members of >>>>>>>>> non-dominant communities, as but a few key design principles. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Absolutely, research as re-searching?searching for the answer >>>>>>>>> to a question you have searched for repeatedly without success! >>>>>>>>> Well said, Miguel Cole! Thanks, for your thoughts, Michael >> Glassman! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> more on sociocritical literacies, later. kris >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kris Gutierrez >>>>>>>>> gutierkd@gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kris D. Guti?rrez >>>>>>>>> Professor >>>>>>>>> Graduate School of Education >>>>>>>>> 5629 Tolman Hall #1670 >>>>>>>>> University of California, Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-1670 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Distinguished Professor >>>>>>>>> Learning Sciences and Literacy >>>>>>>>> School of Education >>>>>>>>> University of Colorado, Boulder >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hello! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sorry for being silly here, but I couldn't help but see that so >>>>>>>>>> far on >>>>>>>>> this thread, there have been appearances by: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mike, Annalisa, Michael, Luisa, and Miguel! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Jan 4 12:16:05 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 13:16:05 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am late to this but definitely love the idea of listening as part of this thread. Henry > On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:24 PM, Helena Worthen wrote: > > Greg -- that's a great idea. I think is has been done, but without a label. Want to nominate an example? > > Helena > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Jan 3, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >> Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a >> question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" >> >> Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. >> >> -greg >> >> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >> >>> Miguel/Mike, >>> >>> I think we have a testimonio here. We have questions borne out of a >>> traumatic historical and social episode (WWII), followed by a movement >>> outward "going East," only to discover one's self "Dewey." The self becomes >>> an allegory for the whole. It may seem that Spivak is saying translation is >>> impossible, but I think a testimonio shows the possibility of translation. >>> Thanks for this gift and happy new year! >>> >>> Aria >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:23 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>> >>> I inherited such questions as part of my family history and my coming to >>> age during the period of post world war II decolonization, Aria, well >>> before I travelled East, as you suggest. Interestingly, it was in going in >>> East that I discovered Dewey.... such was the form of education that led to >>> my phd. >>> >>> Concerning misleading translations. >>> I have PLENTY of problems with issues of translating Vygotsky, in words >>> and in practice! Ask any Russian or scholar whose knowledge of Russian was >>> acquired after the age of 20! (Plenty right here on xmca, one I can see >>> logged into gmail right now). There is a piece in MCA a while back on the >>> perils of translating a key term involving eaching/learning/instruction >>> that is part of an ongoing set of questions about the meaning of the term, >>> zone of proximal development. >>> >>> Peter's note with the distinction between decolonial/postcolonial seems to >>> pick up on some of the themes that various folks who participated in the >>> Migrant program are making. Gotta check out wikipedia on third spaces. The >>> metaphor sure has a lot of homes in a lot of discourse communities and I >>> suspect that some translation will be needed! >>> >>> mike >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Mike, would you say that you have been seeking answers to these >>>> questions by "going East"? I think Spivak would agree with the second >>>> question. In "Translating into English" she talks about how >>>> "generations of empiricist English translators have missed the point >>>> with Marx's philosophical presuppositions, translated 'inhaltslos' as >>>> 'slight in content' and thus made nonsense out of the entire >>>> discussion of value. You may have had a smiliar experience translating >>> Vygotsky. >>>> >>>> Here it is: >>>> >>>> http://przeklad.nazwa.pl/schowek/spivak2.pdf >>>> >>>> Aria >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 1:07 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>> >>>> Aria--- I had not read the Spivak article, although the question she >>>> asks is one I have been asking myself for half a century. And, I would >>>> add, under what conditions? >>>> >>>> I found the article here in case others share my ignorance. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> http://www.mcgill.ca/files/crclaw-discourse/Can_the_subaltern_speak.pd >>>> f >>>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>> >>>>> Larry, >>>>> >>>>> The specific stance that is amplified by the intersections of "third >>>>> space" post-colonial theory, sociocultural theory, and "testimonio" >>>>> is somewhat apparent in the language choice. There is no English >>>>> equivalent because there cannot be an English equivalent. At least, >>>>> there cannot be an "English-Only" equivalent. It represents a >>>>> movement toward an indigenous stance on voice, agency, knowledge, >>>>> certainty, validity, language choice, and learning. I say a "movement >>> toward" >>>>> because Spanish itself carries similar baggage especially within the >>>>> Latin American context. This is the rationale for why some use the >>>>> Aztec idea of Nepantla instead of "Third Space" (e.g., Rochelle >>>>> Guiterrez, Gloria Anzaldua). "Testimonio" further complicates what >>>>> it means for "subalterns" to "reclaim voice" through the dominant >>> voice. >>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>>> outside" the inscribed institutional roles, together in order to >>>>> move "to the roots of our being human together." Spivak was >>>>> specfically critiqueing "the Western intellectual" voice wondering >>>>> if it truly could be a tool of liberation. It seems like a "core" >>>>> identity question as we move through various historical >>>>> entanglements seeking answers to ontological questions of self in >>>>> relation to other. Also >>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>>> >>>>> Aria >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois >>>>> at Chicago >>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>> >>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action >>>>> Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>> >>>>> Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>> >>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>>> outside" the inscribed roles, together in order to move "to the >>>>> roots of our being human together." It seems like a "core" identity >>>>> question as we move through various historical entanglements seeking >>>>> answers to ontological questions of self in relation to other. Also >>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>>> >>>>> Aria >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>> xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry >>>>> xmca-l-bounces+Purss >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:08 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>> >>>>> Aria, >>>>> I want to repeat and amplify your suggestion : >>>>> >>>>> It is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., liminality, >>>>> double consciousness, third place, etc.). The post-colonial uptake >>>>> of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) within the sociocultural >>>>> theory is a very specific stance and this might be the moment for >>>>> that >>>> conversation as well. >>>>> >>>>> To focus on the *third space* as a VERY SPECIFIC stance. >>>>> I would like to become clear on the centrality of *witnessing* as >>>>> central or the re-search fades away. >>>>> Also terms such as *mutuality* contrasted with *reciprocity* or >>>>> *transactions*. >>>>> >>>>> Testimonios as neither subjective [alone] or objective [alone] but a >>>>> hybrid MODE that is a form of witnessing. >>>>> I would also suggest the theme of *gift* as more than transaction or >>>>> echange [in continental philosophy traditions] is relevant. >>>>> >>>>> There is a *spirit* and a moral virtue within this form of >>>>> witnessing as *third space* that plays around with notions of >>>>> *trans* as moving across forms [horizons] as trans-versals [or >>> trans-verse-als] . >>>>> I have an intuition that this type of witnessing is radical, going >>>>> to the roots of our being human together. >>>>> >>>>> Aria, I look forward to further re-search Larry >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> For those of us working with Kris' sociocritical perspective, >>>>>> third space has been a valuable construct for thinking about >>>>>> collective learning zopeds and consciousness for that matter. It >>>>>> is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., >>>>>> liminality, double consciousness, third place, etc.). The >>>>>> post-colonial uptake of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) >>>>>> within the sociocultural theory is a very specific stance and this >>>>>> might be the moment for that conversation as >>>>> well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of >>>>>> Illinois at Chicago >>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>>> >>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and >>>>>> Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Webpage: >>>>>> http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kris >>>>>> Gutierrez >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:56 PM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalisa, Manuel initiated the last uptake. (I think others have >>>>>> clarified that now :) >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike C., Miguel Zavala, Larry Purss and I posted some thoughts >>>>>> before the holidays. For me it is useful to connect Manuel?s >>>>>> recent post to those earlier thoughts/conversations. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some very quick very unedited thoughts following up on Manuel?s post: >>>>>> >>>>>> Michael G., Mike C. correctly points out that the >>>>>> testimonios/autobiographies were not research techniques but >>>>>> generative tools that were indeed a part of the interconnected set >>>>>> of practices that created a collective zoped?a third space if you >>> will. >>>>>> I try to elaborate this idea in the Scribner Lecture piece >>>>>> (sociocritical literacies). My own work on Third Space, the >>>>>> collective work of the instructional team of MSI, ongoing >>>>>> conversations with Mike C. and Yrjo over the years at the lab, and >>>>>> their work certainly informed this idea of a collective zoped, >>>>>> collective third space (See Engestr?m, 1987, 1994 in particular; >>>>>> Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993; Tuomi-Gr?hn & Engestr?m, 2003; Tuomi- >>>>>> Gr?hn, Engestr?m, & Young, 2003; Chaiklin, 2003, Moll, 1990; Moll >>>>>> & Greenberg, 1990 as key examples that certainly inform this work >>>>>> as >>>> well. >>>>> And LSV and Bakhtin are ever present). >>>>>> These, I think, are useful references, all cited in the article. >>>>>> Shirin Vossoughi?s recent MCA piece also is very relevant to this >>>>> discussion. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some relevant excerpts from the sociocritical article, >>>>>> >>>>>> "To illustrate these points and their relation to a collective >>>>>> Third Space, let us examine the MSLI more closely. >>>>>> The activity system, the MSLI, has a specific internal logic >>>>>> organized around expanding the students? sociohistorical and >>>>>> educational ecology through the collective imagining of a new >>>>>> educational and sociopolitical future. >>>>>> To avoid the ?interactional reductionism implicit in much >>>>>> Vygotskian-inspired research? (Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993, p. 284), >>>>>> the specific interactions and practices of the MSLI are understood >>>>>> as what Nicolopoulou and Cole call a ?genuinely collective reality? >>>> (p. 284). >>>>>> >>>>>> Here we see the [Migrant] institute as an example of the Third >>>>>> Space, a collective zo-ped, at the larger level of activity the >>>>>> object of which is the sociohistorical reconstruction of what it >>>>>> means to be a migrant student. >>>>>> This movement involves a process of becoming conscious ?historical >>>>> actors? >>>>>> (Espinoza, 2003) who invoke the past in order to re-mediate it so >>>>>> that it becomes a resource for current and future action (p. 154)." >>>>>> >>>>>> Testimonios and their embodiment in Teatro del Oprimido (Boal?s >>>>>> Theatre of the Oppressed that Manuel introduced to us and the >>>>>> program and that he and Vossoughi elaborated) were key means of >>>>>> developing/inciting a new social and pedagogical imagination and >>>>>> for imagining new futures with/for the migrant students, their >>>>>> communities, and indeed for all of us, as Manuel so thoughtfully >>>>>> writes. Teatro served as a collective problem-solving space?a >>>>>> space where the playful imagination helped to make inequities and >>>>>> the roots of social problems visible, while providing an >>>>>> opportunity to re-frame events, re-mediate and enact an imagined >>>>>> future collectively (such as flying collectively/social dreaming). >>>>>> I hope Manuel and Shirin jump in and elaborate these thoughts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Re: Research design: For me, Migrant was in Yrjo and Mike's >>>>>> approach, a formative experiment; what I term social design >>>>>> experiments?a designed based research approach that foregrounds >>>>>> equity, diversity, historicity, and re-mediation, for example. As >>>>>> Susan Jurow and I wrote and presented at the ICLS conference this >>>>>> summer (a piece that we expect will be part of a larger set of >>>>>> papers with Mike C., Yrjo and Annalisa, and Bill Penuel), social >>>>>> design experiments: aim to make possible a sustainable and >>>>>> dignified life for all humans; address the challenges of >>>>>> leveraging cultural diversity and reducing social inequality; and >>>>>> call for the co-design of new tools and futures with members of >>>>>> non-dominant communities, as but a few key design principles. >>>>>> >>>>>> Absolutely, research as re-searching?searching for the answer >>>>>> to a question you have searched for repeatedly without success! >>>>>> Well said, Miguel Cole! Thanks, for your thoughts, Michael Glassman! >>>>>> >>>>>> more on sociocritical literacies, later. kris >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Kris Gutierrez >>>>>> gutierkd@gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Kris D. Guti?rrez >>>>>> Professor >>>>>> Graduate School of Education >>>>>> 5629 Tolman Hall #1670 >>>>>> University of California, Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-1670 >>>>>> >>>>>> Distinguished Professor >>>>>> Learning Sciences and Literacy >>>>>> School of Education >>>>>> University of Colorado, Boulder >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sorry for being silly here, but I couldn't help but see that so >>>>>>> far on >>>>>> this thread, there have been appearances by: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mike, Annalisa, Michael, Luisa, and Miguel! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Jan 4 12:18:30 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 13:18:30 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: <, > <, > <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <, > <, > <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <, > <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <, > <, > <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <, > <, > <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <, > <, > <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> <, > <, > <, > <1420304498782.50212@unm.edu> <, > <06c801d0277c$ee71d590$cb5580b0$@uic.edu> <072b01d0278a$7d943760$78bca620$@uic.edu> Message-ID: Again, I am late to this, but have been thinking for sometime about how indigeneity might enter into the discourse. Humans, apparently, have always been on the move, but stay put sometimes. Henry > On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:32 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > The indigenous scholar from whom I heard the term decolonization is Cherokee (N. American tribe). Neither east nor west, which seems a false dichotomy to me. > > Peter Smagorinsky > Distinguished Research Professor of English Education > Department of Language and Literacy Education > The University of Georgia > 315 Aderhold Hall > Athens, GA 30602 > > Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education > Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga > > > Personal twitter account: @psmagorinsky > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Aria Razfar > Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2015 2:22 PM > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > Francine, > > "Postcolonialism" and "Orientalism" definitely demonize the West, and self proclaimed "subalterns" do all the speaking and the "West" does all the listening. Decolonialism is the realization that this stance might have been necessary but it clearly isn't sufficient. The cases you mention illustrate that, where so-called "oppressed" become oppressors themselves. I am espousing continued two-way communication and dialectic interaction on more symmetrical grounds. There is no need to undermine "the West" or "save the East" or vice versa. I am imagining the outcome of "going East" for the "Western" intellectual the emergence of a West that see itself as East, and an East that sees itself as West otherwise it is perpetual antagonism and "culture wars" as you describe. I'm not sure about your characterization of the roots of the internet. > > Aria > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of larry smolucha > Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2015 12:46 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > > Message from Francine: > > How can you have a dialectic or a discourse with the 'other' > (i.e. the so-called Western intellectual) when the rhetoric of postcolonialism, decolonialism, and Orientalism demonizes the West? > At the very same time, that ISIL, el Shabbab, Boko Haram, are the oppressors massacring thousands of Christians and Muslims, - and it is the West that has to intervene to save these innocent lives. > > You are espousing a one way communication in which self-labeled subalterns want to do all the speaking, and have the people they have designated as their oppressors do all the listening. > > There is also the irony, that the internet is a product of Western technology > - wasn't the world wide web designed by the U.S. military? If it is O.K. to use Western 'tools' to undermine the West , then this is not decolonialism but merely culture wars. > > > >> From: arazfar@uic.edu >> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 11:44:30 -0600 >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >> >> Greg and Annalisa, >> >> The question you raise, and a point made earlier by Peter, seems to me >> the outcome of post-colonial literature. This is why there is a need >> for the "Western intellectual" to "go East." This was the conclusion >> of Edward Said's "Orientalism" and other post-colonial theorists. >> Since the time of Napoleon, the "Western intellectual" had been going >> east, engaged in "subaltern studies" for the purpose of conquest and cultural domination. >> He/She must now "go East" to hear/listen to the "other" in order to > reclaim >> its self and embrace a pedagogy of "decolonization." If the "Western >> intellectual" is the oppressor, then "going East" to "hear" is his/her >> pedagogy. I believe this was at the at the heart of Freire's "Pedagogy >> of the Oppressed" as well. A pedagogy that is just as "critical" and > liberatory >> for the so called "oppressor" as it is for the so called "oppressed." >> This is a dialectic missing in today's critical, ethnic, and "subaltern" > studies >> programs. >> >> Aria >> >> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois at >> Chicago >> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >> Chicago, IL, 60607 >> >> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action >> Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >> >> Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >> Tel: 312-413-8373 >> Fax: 312-996-8134 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar >> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2015 11:02 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> You know, I think you are on to something there. >> >> As long as there isn't a subsequent Oppression of the Pedagogy of the >> Oppressors, I think it could work! >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> On Jan 3, 2015 9:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: >> >> Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a >> question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" >> >> Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. >> >> -greg >> >> >> > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jan 4 12:22:54 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 12:22:54 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Helena for this clear answer. The question "For Whom, By Whom, For what purpose" could be the beginning of a new thread I would support. I would gently suggest that you are encouraging "shared social dreams" for working people as working people. As you mention the "By whom" is a knotty question Larry On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 11:58 AM, Helena Worthen wrote: > Larry (and I know I'm violating my principle of not addressing people by > name): > > The comment is part of a quote from Lave. Yes, she was addressing the > elite -- mostly professors of one sort or another, and selected from among > those professors who could get funding to go to AERA. But good-hearted > people, nonetheless! > > You're right about how hard it is to untangle the knots into which > different pedagogies are tied. One way is to think of the whole regime as > an activity system, which is defined by its purpose. Simpler, and probably > better, is to ask what I've heard called "the Freireian questions": "For > whom, by whom, and for what purpose?" I think I heard Peter McClaren use > these questions. I actually saw them posted on the wall of the union hall > of the teachers' union in Mexico City -- one of the Coordinadora > (dissenting) unions; dissenting from the neoliberal project of > privatization. (Note that the murder of the 43 student teachers is all part > of this movement and it's suppression). > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinadora_Nacional_de_Trabajadores_de_la_Educaci?n > > I work in a field that distinguishes itself explicitly from the Pedagogy > of the Oppressor regime. (I have to laugh when I write this -- it sounds > pretty stiff!). The people I teach are likely to have long since given up > on the "social dream" that you speak of, since they've seen their real > wages go down and their labor rights attacked. Labor education is "For > whom" -- working people who want better, safer jobs; "By whom" -- often, > people like me with both teaching and union experience, but better yet, > educated union activists teaching each other, " and "For what purpose?" -- > to build enough collective power and capacity to make changes in their own > workplaces first, in society second. > > It's not something anyone can do alone, so the whole project is collective. > > I'm happy to change the subject line if anyone else wants to untangle the > Pedagogy of the Oppressor notion. Looking back, I think the idea was first > uttered as a joke -- that I decided to take seriously. > > H > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Jan 4, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Helena, > > Your comment... > > > > "the logic that makes success exceptional": [at elite centers of > learning] > > > > How do we move beyond this social *fact* that the desire and wish to be > > "exceptional" is the current "social dream" of many who participate in > > "social dreaming"? When reading about the "social dreaming" of "third > > spaces" the "designers" of this social dream often work from these elite > > centers of learning. > > I assumethat where Lave gave her address she was also speaking to a group > > of "exceptional" learners who arrived to listen to her from elite centers > > of learning. > > > > Being "exceptional" [rather than ordinary] is one of the main values > > perpetuated at "elite" centers. How do we come to value "ordinary" > learning > > if the centers from which social dreaming is often developed are places > of > > exceptionality. > > > > THIS TYPE OF LOGIC seems to be a particularly difficult notion to > untangle > > when the knots themselves are developed at elite centers of learning. > Elite > > centers also become the forum for distributing the *truth* of many > social > > dreams [and often give the social dreams legitimacy] > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Helena Worthen > > wrote: > > > >> Greg - > >> > >> Quickly, since the thread is moving on. I'm arguing that a "Pedagogy of > >> the Oppressor" is what we've got going on throughout our educational > >> system. At the elite heights, students learn how to rule the world; in > the > >> depths, the same pedagogy functions as social control. > >> > >> Here is a quote from Lave's article "teaching, as Learning, in > Practice," > >> which was published in MCA vol 3 no 3. The article is drawn from her > >> acceptance speech at AERA when she got the Sylvia Scribner award. She > says: > >> > >> "...theories that conceive of learning as a special universal mental > >> process impoverish and mis-recognize it...Theories that reduce learning > to > >> individual mental capacity/activity in the last instance blame > marginalized > >> people for being marginal. Common theories of learning begin and end > with > >> individual (though these days they often nod at "the social" or "the > >> environment" in between). Such theories are deeply concerned with > >> individual differences, with notions of better and worse, more and less > >> learning, and with comparison of these things across > >> group-of-individuals... the logic that makes success exceptional but > >> nonetheless characterizes lack of success as not normal won't do. A > >> reconsideration of learning as a social, collective, rather than > >> individual, psychological phenomenon offers the only way beyond the > current > >> state of affiars that i can envision at the present time." > >> > >> It sounds to me as if she is thinking of (although this was 1996) both > No > >> Child Left Behind and Race to the Top. Right? But she was writing just > when > >> the trend in that direction was getting going. the Clinton years, when > >> people were intoxicated with the first vast applications of computer > >> technology which would make testing so much easier. > >> > >> Helena > >> > >> > >> Helena Worthen > >> helenaworthen@gmail.com > >> > >> On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:50 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > >> > >>> Helena, > >>> I was hoping that others might be able to tell me that this has already > >> been done. Seems like lots of people are in this kind of game but nobody > >> has really talked about it explicitly (as far as I can tell - maybe some > >> whiteness theorists but in a very circumscribed way). and I'm quite > certain > >> that no one has deal with it in a sufficiently sophisticated manner to > be > >> able to hedge off the kinds of concerns that Francine raises. > >>> Anyone have any thoughts? Perhaps this should be a different thread? > >>> And yes, Freire has this on his radar but not nearly explicitly enough > >> to where it could be employed I. Some meaningful way in practice. > >>> Greg > >>> Ps, and yes my comment entirely sidesteps definitional issues of who > >> counts as subaltern or not. That is a huge and mucky issue. But not > sure > >> it is worth getting bogged down in it... > >>> > >>> Sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>>> On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:24 PM, Helena Worthen > >> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Greg -- that's a great idea. I think is has been done, but without a > >> label. Want to nominate an example? > >>>> > >>>> Helena > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Helena Worthen > >>>> helenaworthen@gmail.com > >>>> > >>>>> On Jan 3, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much > a > >>>>> question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" > >>>>> > >>>>> Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. > >>>>> > >>>>> -greg > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Aria Razfar > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel/Mike, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I think we have a testimonio here. We have questions borne out of a > >>>>>> traumatic historical and social episode (WWII), followed by a > movement > >>>>>> outward "going East," only to discover one's self "Dewey." The self > >> becomes > >>>>>> an allegory for the whole. It may seem that Spivak is saying > >> translation is > >>>>>> impossible, but I think a testimonio shows the possibility of > >> translation. > >>>>>> Thanks for this gift and happy new year! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Aria > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:23 PM > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I inherited such questions as part of my family history and my > coming > >> to > >>>>>> age during the period of post world war II decolonization, Aria, > well > >>>>>> before I travelled East, as you suggest. Interestingly, it was in > >> going in > >>>>>> East that I discovered Dewey.... such was the form of education that > >> led to > >>>>>> my phd. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Concerning misleading translations. > >>>>>> I have PLENTY of problems with issues of translating Vygotsky, in > >> words > >>>>>> and in practice! Ask any Russian or scholar whose knowledge of > >> Russian was > >>>>>> acquired after the age of 20! (Plenty right here on xmca, one I can > >> see > >>>>>> logged into gmail right now). There is a piece in MCA a while back > on > >> the > >>>>>> perils of translating a key term involving > >> eaching/learning/instruction > >>>>>> that is part of an ongoing set of questions about the meaning of the > >> term, > >>>>>> zone of proximal development. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Peter's note with the distinction between decolonial/postcolonial > >> seems to > >>>>>> pick up on some of the themes that various folks who participated in > >> the > >>>>>> Migrant program are making. Gotta check out wikipedia on third > >> spaces. The > >>>>>> metaphor sure has a lot of homes in a lot of discourse communities > >> and I > >>>>>> suspect that some translation will be needed! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> mike > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Aria Razfar > >> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Mike, would you say that you have been seeking answers to these > >>>>>>> questions by "going East"? I think Spivak would agree with the > second > >>>>>>> question. In "Translating into English" she talks about how > >>>>>>> "generations of empiricist English translators have missed the > point > >>>>>>> with Marx's philosophical presuppositions, translated 'inhaltslos' > as > >>>>>>> 'slight in content' and thus made nonsense out of the entire > >>>>>>> discussion of value. You may have had a smiliar experience > >> translating > >>>>>> Vygotsky. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Here it is: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://przeklad.nazwa.pl/schowek/spivak2.pdf > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Aria > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 1:07 PM > >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Aria--- I had not read the Spivak article, although the question > she > >>>>>>> asks is one I have been asking myself for half a century. And, I > >> would > >>>>>>> add, under what conditions? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I found the article here in case others share my ignorance. > >>>>>>> mike > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >> http://www.mcgill.ca/files/crclaw-discourse/Can_the_subaltern_speak.pd > >>>>>>> f > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Aria Razfar > >> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Larry, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The specific stance that is amplified by the intersections of > "third > >>>>>>>> space" post-colonial theory, sociocultural theory, and > "testimonio" > >>>>>>>> is somewhat apparent in the language choice. There is no English > >>>>>>>> equivalent because there cannot be an English equivalent. At > least, > >>>>>>>> there cannot be an "English-Only" equivalent. It represents a > >>>>>>>> movement toward an indigenous stance on voice, agency, knowledge, > >>>>>>>> certainty, validity, language choice, and learning. I say a > >> "movement > >>>>>> toward" > >>>>>>>> because Spanish itself carries similar baggage especially within > the > >>>>>>>> Latin American context. This is the rationale for why some use the > >>>>>>>> Aztec idea of Nepantla instead of "Third Space" (e.g., Rochelle > >>>>>>>> Guiterrez, Gloria Anzaldua). "Testimonio" further complicates what > >>>>>>>> it means for "subalterns" to "reclaim voice" through the dominant > >>>>>> voice. > >>>>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the > >>>>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step > >>>>>>>> outside" the inscribed institutional roles, together in order to > >>>>>>>> move "to the roots of our being human together." Spivak was > >>>>>>>> specfically critiqueing "the Western intellectual" voice wondering > >>>>>>>> if it truly could be a tool of liberation. It seems like a "core" > >>>>>>>> identity question as we move through various historical > >>>>>>>> entanglements seeking answers to ontological questions of self in > >>>>>>>> relation to other. Also > >>>>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Aria > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > >>>>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of > >>>>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of > Illinois > >>>>>>>> at Chicago > >>>>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > >>>>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and > Action > >>>>>>>> Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Webpage: > http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > >>>>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 > >>>>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the > >>>>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step > >>>>>>>> outside" the inscribed roles, together in order to move "to the > >>>>>>>> roots of our being human together." It seems like a "core" > identity > >>>>>>>> question as we move through various historical entanglements > seeking > >>>>>>>> answers to ontological questions of self in relation to other. > Also > >>>>>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Aria > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of > Larry > >>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+Purss > >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:08 PM > >>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Aria, > >>>>>>>> I want to repeat and amplify your suggestion : > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its > >>>>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., > liminality, > >>>>>>>> double consciousness, third place, etc.). The post-colonial uptake > >>>>>>>> of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) within the > sociocultural > >>>>>>>> theory is a very specific stance and this might be the moment for > >>>>>>>> that > >>>>>>> conversation as well. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To focus on the *third space* as a VERY SPECIFIC stance. > >>>>>>>> I would like to become clear on the centrality of *witnessing* as > >>>>>>>> central or the re-search fades away. > >>>>>>>> Also terms such as *mutuality* contrasted with *reciprocity* or > >>>>>>>> *transactions*. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Testimonios as neither subjective [alone] or objective [alone] > but a > >>>>>>>> hybrid MODE that is a form of witnessing. > >>>>>>>> I would also suggest the theme of *gift* as more than transaction > or > >>>>>>>> echange [in continental philosophy traditions] is relevant. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> There is a *spirit* and a moral virtue within this form of > >>>>>>>> witnessing as *third space* that plays around with notions of > >>>>>>>> *trans* as moving across forms [horizons] as trans-versals [or > >>>>>> trans-verse-als] . > >>>>>>>> I have an intuition that this type of witnessing is radical, going > >>>>>>>> to the roots of our being human together. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Aria, I look forward to further re-search Larry > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Aria Razfar > >> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> For those of us working with Kris' sociocritical perspective, > >>>>>>>>> third space has been a valuable construct for thinking about > >>>>>>>>> collective learning zopeds and consciousness for that matter. It > >>>>>>>>> is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its > >>>>>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., > >>>>>>>>> liminality, double consciousness, third place, etc.). The > >>>>>>>>> post-colonial uptake of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) > >>>>>>>>> within the sociocultural theory is a very specific stance and > this > >>>>>>>>> might be the moment for that conversation as > >>>>>>>> well. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Aria > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > >>>>>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director > of > >>>>>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of > >>>>>>>>> Illinois at Chicago > >>>>>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > >>>>>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and > >>>>>>>>> Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Webpage: > >>>>>>>>> http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > >>>>>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 > >>>>>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kris > >>>>>>>>> Gutierrez > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:56 PM > >>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Annalisa, Manuel initiated the last uptake. (I think others have > >>>>>>>>> clarified that now :) > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Mike C., Miguel Zavala, Larry Purss and I posted some thoughts > >>>>>>>>> before the holidays. For me it is useful to connect Manuel?s > >>>>>>>>> recent post to those earlier thoughts/conversations. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Some very quick very unedited thoughts following up on Manuel?s > >> post: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Michael G., Mike C. correctly points out that the > >>>>>>>>> testimonios/autobiographies were not research techniques but > >>>>>>>>> generative tools that were indeed a part of the interconnected > set > >>>>>>>>> of practices that created a collective zoped?a third space if you > >>>>>> will. > >>>>>>>>> I try to elaborate this idea in the Scribner Lecture piece > >>>>>>>>> (sociocritical literacies). My own work on Third Space, the > >>>>>>>>> collective work of the instructional team of MSI, ongoing > >>>>>>>>> conversations with Mike C. and Yrjo over the years at the lab, > and > >>>>>>>>> their work certainly informed this idea of a collective zoped, > >>>>>>>>> collective third space (See Engestr?m, 1987, 1994 in particular; > >>>>>>>>> Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993; Tuomi-Gr?hn & Engestr?m, 2003; Tuomi- > >>>>>>>>> Gr?hn, Engestr?m, & Young, 2003; Chaiklin, 2003, Moll, 1990; Moll > >>>>>>>>> & Greenberg, 1990 as key examples that certainly inform this work > >>>>>>>>> as > >>>>>>> well. > >>>>>>>> And LSV and Bakhtin are ever present). > >>>>>>>>> These, I think, are useful references, all cited in the article. > >>>>>>>>> Shirin Vossoughi?s recent MCA piece also is very relevant to this > >>>>>>>> discussion. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Some relevant excerpts from the sociocritical article, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> "To illustrate these points and their relation to a collective > >>>>>>>>> Third Space, let us examine the MSLI more closely. > >>>>>>>>> The activity system, the MSLI, has a specific internal logic > >>>>>>>>> organized around expanding the students? sociohistorical and > >>>>>>>>> educational ecology through the collective imagining of a new > >>>>>>>>> educational and sociopolitical future. > >>>>>>>>> To avoid the ?interactional reductionism implicit in much > >>>>>>>>> Vygotskian-inspired research? (Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993, p. > 284), > >>>>>>>>> the specific interactions and practices of the MSLI are > understood > >>>>>>>>> as what Nicolopoulou and Cole call a ?genuinely collective > reality? > >>>>>>> (p. 284). > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Here we see the [Migrant] institute as an example of the Third > >>>>>>>>> Space, a collective zo-ped, at the larger level of activity the > >>>>>>>>> object of which is the sociohistorical reconstruction of what it > >>>>>>>>> means to be a migrant student. > >>>>>>>>> This movement involves a process of becoming conscious > ?historical > >>>>>>>> actors? > >>>>>>>>> (Espinoza, 2003) who invoke the past in order to re-mediate it so > >>>>>>>>> that it becomes a resource for current and future action (p. > 154)." > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Testimonios and their embodiment in Teatro del Oprimido (Boal?s > >>>>>>>>> Theatre of the Oppressed that Manuel introduced to us and the > >>>>>>>>> program and that he and Vossoughi elaborated) were key means of > >>>>>>>>> developing/inciting a new social and pedagogical imagination and > >>>>>>>>> for imagining new futures with/for the migrant students, their > >>>>>>>>> communities, and indeed for all of us, as Manuel so thoughtfully > >>>>>>>>> writes. Teatro served as a collective problem-solving space?a > >>>>>>>>> space where the playful imagination helped to make inequities and > >>>>>>>>> the roots of social problems visible, while providing an > >>>>>>>>> opportunity to re-frame events, re-mediate and enact an imagined > >>>>>>>>> future collectively (such as flying collectively/social > dreaming). > >>>>>>>>> I hope Manuel and Shirin jump in and elaborate these thoughts. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Re: Research design: For me, Migrant was in Yrjo and Mike's > >>>>>>>>> approach, a formative experiment; what I term social design > >>>>>>>>> experiments?a designed based research approach that foregrounds > >>>>>>>>> equity, diversity, historicity, and re-mediation, for example. As > >>>>>>>>> Susan Jurow and I wrote and presented at the ICLS conference this > >>>>>>>>> summer (a piece that we expect will be part of a larger set of > >>>>>>>>> papers with Mike C., Yrjo and Annalisa, and Bill Penuel), social > >>>>>>>>> design experiments: aim to make possible a sustainable and > >>>>>>>>> dignified life for all humans; address the challenges of > >>>>>>>>> leveraging cultural diversity and reducing social inequality; and > >>>>>>>>> call for the co-design of new tools and futures with members of > >>>>>>>>> non-dominant communities, as but a few key design principles. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Absolutely, research as re-searching?searching for the answer > >>>>>>>>> to a question you have searched for repeatedly without success! > >>>>>>>>> Well said, Miguel Cole! Thanks, for your thoughts, Michael > >> Glassman! > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> more on sociocritical literacies, later. kris > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Kris Gutierrez > >>>>>>>>> gutierkd@gmail.com > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Kris D. Guti?rrez > >>>>>>>>> Professor > >>>>>>>>> Graduate School of Education > >>>>>>>>> 5629 Tolman Hall #1670 > >>>>>>>>> University of California, Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-1670 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Distinguished Professor > >>>>>>>>> Learning Sciences and Literacy > >>>>>>>>> School of Education > >>>>>>>>> University of Colorado, Boulder > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Annalisa Aguilar > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Hello! > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Sorry for being silly here, but I couldn't help but see that so > >>>>>>>>>> far on > >>>>>>>>> this thread, there have been appearances by: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> mike, Annalisa, Michael, Luisa, and Miguel! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as > an > >>>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > >>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>>> Assistant Professor > >>>>> Department of Anthropology > >>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>>> Brigham Young University > >>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jan 4 12:34:43 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 20:34:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> , Message-ID: <1420403683210.58707@unm.edu> Hi Helena, Michael, and Larry and others! This is a marvelous thread and I hope there will be more who contribute because I believe there is some great thinking and feeling going on here, if no one minds me saying. I agree with everything said for the most part, but I think what there lacks from the Pedagogy of the Oppressors is a discourse on feeling and care. If there *were* one it would pretty much expose it for what it is. What has happened in the test-to-death milieu that we have witnessed moving to the front in the Pedagogy of the OppresseD, is a teaching of divorcing self-intelligence from system-intelligence. I'm making these terms up because I'm trying to give new awareness to something that may frequently be ignored. I'm naming self-intelligence that which pertains to one's learning to take care of oneself in a meaningful way. Understanding basic tasks like diet, rest, exercise, work, leisure, family, friendship, community and civil duties and how these are beneficial to oneself are not taught. These areas are areas of care, self-care. System-intelligence is that which pertains to understanding how the system works that one is a part of. If the code to the system is a "secret" then one cannot integrate that into self-care. Of course when I say self-care, I don't mean selfishness, but addressing one's basic needs as a human being and one's society in which one is a part. The "final form" that we are teaching today is just as Helena says, that there must be a kind of social darwinism in play to create an appearance of "success of the elite" who are than able to succeed further the higher up the ladder they go. The ones who are not as "fit" must learn to settle for the crumbs. And if the "losers" feel bad about the crumbs, then it means these "losers" are somehow essentially defective, so if they feel bad, this "feeling bad" is only proof of not being good enough, because if one is good enough, then one would "feel good" and fit in. The thing is the "feeling bad" is not proof of one's lack of worth, it is the result of a system that is hurtful, in which anyone, any subject, would be hurt by it. The same can be said about "feeling good," actually because it is also not proof of one's worth either, and so there are different compensations at work to make up for a false sense of "feeling good." So anyone, any subject is conditioned into an impossible situation. I don't believe that it is a coincidence that the reality TV show "Survivor" aired when it did. It was a lesson being taught to band together to vote people off the island and not feel bad about it until you get voted off, and even then you are "supposed" to be a "good loser" and not be angry about it and just leave quietly. "One is either a hammer or a nail," is something I heard in a new Will Smith movie preview the other day. The Pedagogy of the Oppressor is not only in the schools. To talk about love and care has been completely erased from the social discourse. Sharing is considered deviant. Greed is a good thing. These practices are a part of the Pedagogy of the Oppressor. I'm very responsive to Larry's indication of the reliance upon LOGIC. I suspect that if we really were to examine the LOGIC, it wouldn't make any sense at all, that it contains internal contradictions. My intuition tells me that were these contradictions revealed by sunshine, change would manifest. But that is I suppose the optimist shining in me. In response to Michael, I am certain that there are cause and effects still waiting to be understood from the early 20th century. If one were to look at the society using metaphorical reasoning, possibly there was a misconstruing of the role of the father and of the mother, and the "collective" was in search of parental care, care that may have been lacking during the first world war. In essence the "collective" are orphans to the meaning in their lives, particularly during the rise of industry and technology. I don't think that Adorno, et al would have been capable to witness this since they were in the stew of being in it in history. We have the luxury of hindsight with the leisure of time to think about events and their causes after they have happened. I'm glad Helena repeated herself, and a few times! :) Perhaps we have been hypnotized by the narrative and we are attempting to snap ourselves out of it so we can look at it with new eyes and even new words. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Larry Purss Sent: Sunday, January 4, 2015 11:30 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context Helena, Your comment... "the logic that makes success exceptional": [at elite centers of learning] How do we move beyond this social *fact* that the desire and wish to be "exceptional" is the current "social dream" of many who participate in "social dreaming"? When reading about the "social dreaming" of "third spaces" the "designers" of this social dream often work from these elite centers of learning. I assumethat where Lave gave her address she was also speaking to a group of "exceptional" learners who arrived to listen to her from elite centers of learning. Being "exceptional" [rather than ordinary] is one of the main values perpetuated at "elite" centers. How do we come to value "ordinary" learning if the centers from which social dreaming is often developed are places of exceptionality. THIS TYPE OF LOGIC seems to be a particularly difficult notion to untangle when the knots themselves are developed at elite centers of learning. Elite centers also become the forum for distributing the *truth* of many social dreams [and often give the social dreams legitimacy] Larry On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Helena Worthen wrote: > Greg - > > Quickly, since the thread is moving on. I'm arguing that a "Pedagogy of > the Oppressor" is what we've got going on throughout our educational > system. At the elite heights, students learn how to rule the world; in the > depths, the same pedagogy functions as social control. > > Here is a quote from Lave's article "teaching, as Learning, in Practice," > which was published in MCA vol 3 no 3. The article is drawn from her > acceptance speech at AERA when she got the Sylvia Scribner award. She says: > > "...theories that conceive of learning as a special universal mental > process impoverish and mis-recognize it...Theories that reduce learning to > individual mental capacity/activity in the last instance blame marginalized > people for being marginal. Common theories of learning begin and end with > individual (though these days they often nod at "the social" or "the > environment" in between). Such theories are deeply concerned with > individual differences, with notions of better and worse, more and less > learning, and with comparison of these things across > group-of-individuals... the logic that makes success exceptional but > nonetheless characterizes lack of success as not normal won't do. A > reconsideration of learning as a social, collective, rather than > individual, psychological phenomenon offers the only way beyond the current > state of affiars that i can envision at the present time." > > It sounds to me as if she is thinking of (although this was 1996) both No > Child Left Behind and Race to the Top. Right? But she was writing just when > the trend in that direction was getting going. the Clinton years, when > people were intoxicated with the first vast applications of computer > technology which would make testing so much easier. > > Helena > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:50 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > > > Helena, > > I was hoping that others might be able to tell me that this has already > been done. Seems like lots of people are in this kind of game but nobody > has really talked about it explicitly (as far as I can tell - maybe some > whiteness theorists but in a very circumscribed way). and I'm quite certain > that no one has deal with it in a sufficiently sophisticated manner to be > able to hedge off the kinds of concerns that Francine raises. > > Anyone have any thoughts? Perhaps this should be a different thread? > > And yes, Freire has this on his radar but not nearly explicitly enough > to where it could be employed I. Some meaningful way in practice. > > Greg > > Ps, and yes my comment entirely sidesteps definitional issues of who > counts as subaltern or not. That is a huge and mucky issue. But not sure > it is worth getting bogged down in it... > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:24 PM, Helena Worthen > wrote: > >> > >> Greg -- that's a great idea. I think is has been done, but without a > label. Want to nominate an example? > >> > >> Helena > >> > >> > >> Helena Worthen > >> helenaworthen@gmail.com > >> > >>> On Jan 3, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >>> > >>> Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a > >>> question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" > >>> > >>> Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. > >>> > >>> -greg > >>> > >>>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Miguel/Mike, > >>>> > >>>> I think we have a testimonio here. We have questions borne out of a > >>>> traumatic historical and social episode (WWII), followed by a movement > >>>> outward "going East," only to discover one's self "Dewey." The self > becomes > >>>> an allegory for the whole. It may seem that Spivak is saying > translation is > >>>> impossible, but I think a testimonio shows the possibility of > translation. > >>>> Thanks for this gift and happy new year! > >>>> > >>>> Aria > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:23 PM > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>> > >>>> I inherited such questions as part of my family history and my coming > to > >>>> age during the period of post world war II decolonization, Aria, well > >>>> before I travelled East, as you suggest. Interestingly, it was in > going in > >>>> East that I discovered Dewey.... such was the form of education that > led to > >>>> my phd. > >>>> > >>>> Concerning misleading translations. > >>>> I have PLENTY of problems with issues of translating Vygotsky, in > words > >>>> and in practice! Ask any Russian or scholar whose knowledge of > Russian was > >>>> acquired after the age of 20! (Plenty right here on xmca, one I can > see > >>>> logged into gmail right now). There is a piece in MCA a while back on > the > >>>> perils of translating a key term involving > eaching/learning/instruction > >>>> that is part of an ongoing set of questions about the meaning of the > term, > >>>> zone of proximal development. > >>>> > >>>> Peter's note with the distinction between decolonial/postcolonial > seems to > >>>> pick up on some of the themes that various folks who participated in > the > >>>> Migrant program are making. Gotta check out wikipedia on third > spaces. The > >>>> metaphor sure has a lot of homes in a lot of discourse communities > and I > >>>> suspect that some translation will be needed! > >>>> > >>>> mike > >>>> > >>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Aria Razfar > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Mike, would you say that you have been seeking answers to these > >>>>> questions by "going East"? I think Spivak would agree with the second > >>>>> question. In "Translating into English" she talks about how > >>>>> "generations of empiricist English translators have missed the point > >>>>> with Marx's philosophical presuppositions, translated 'inhaltslos' as > >>>>> 'slight in content' and thus made nonsense out of the entire > >>>>> discussion of value. You may have had a smiliar experience > translating > >>>> Vygotsky. > >>>>> > >>>>> Here it is: > >>>>> > >>>>> http://przeklad.nazwa.pl/schowek/spivak2.pdf > >>>>> > >>>>> Aria > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 1:07 PM > >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>>> > >>>>> Aria--- I had not read the Spivak article, although the question she > >>>>> asks is one I have been asking myself for half a century. And, I > would > >>>>> add, under what conditions? > >>>>> > >>>>> I found the article here in case others share my ignorance. > >>>>> mike > >>>>> > >>>>> > http://www.mcgill.ca/files/crclaw-discourse/Can_the_subaltern_speak.pd > >>>>> f > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Aria Razfar > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Larry, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The specific stance that is amplified by the intersections of "third > >>>>>> space" post-colonial theory, sociocultural theory, and "testimonio" > >>>>>> is somewhat apparent in the language choice. There is no English > >>>>>> equivalent because there cannot be an English equivalent. At least, > >>>>>> there cannot be an "English-Only" equivalent. It represents a > >>>>>> movement toward an indigenous stance on voice, agency, knowledge, > >>>>>> certainty, validity, language choice, and learning. I say a > "movement > >>>> toward" > >>>>>> because Spanish itself carries similar baggage especially within the > >>>>>> Latin American context. This is the rationale for why some use the > >>>>>> Aztec idea of Nepantla instead of "Third Space" (e.g., Rochelle > >>>>>> Guiterrez, Gloria Anzaldua). "Testimonio" further complicates what > >>>>>> it means for "subalterns" to "reclaim voice" through the dominant > >>>> voice. > >>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the > >>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step > >>>>>> outside" the inscribed institutional roles, together in order to > >>>>>> move "to the roots of our being human together." Spivak was > >>>>>> specfically critiqueing "the Western intellectual" voice wondering > >>>>>> if it truly could be a tool of liberation. It seems like a "core" > >>>>>> identity question as we move through various historical > >>>>>> entanglements seeking answers to ontological questions of self in > >>>>>> relation to other. Also > >>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Aria > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > >>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of > >>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois > >>>>>> at Chicago > >>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > >>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action > >>>>>> Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > >>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 > >>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the > >>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step > >>>>>> outside" the inscribed roles, together in order to move "to the > >>>>>> roots of our being human together." It seems like a "core" identity > >>>>>> question as we move through various historical entanglements seeking > >>>>>> answers to ontological questions of self in relation to other. Also > >>>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Aria > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry > >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+Purss > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:08 PM > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Aria, > >>>>>> I want to repeat and amplify your suggestion : > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its > >>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., liminality, > >>>>>> double consciousness, third place, etc.). The post-colonial uptake > >>>>>> of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) within the sociocultural > >>>>>> theory is a very specific stance and this might be the moment for > >>>>>> that > >>>>> conversation as well. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> To focus on the *third space* as a VERY SPECIFIC stance. > >>>>>> I would like to become clear on the centrality of *witnessing* as > >>>>>> central or the re-search fades away. > >>>>>> Also terms such as *mutuality* contrasted with *reciprocity* or > >>>>>> *transactions*. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Testimonios as neither subjective [alone] or objective [alone] but a > >>>>>> hybrid MODE that is a form of witnessing. > >>>>>> I would also suggest the theme of *gift* as more than transaction or > >>>>>> echange [in continental philosophy traditions] is relevant. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There is a *spirit* and a moral virtue within this form of > >>>>>> witnessing as *third space* that plays around with notions of > >>>>>> *trans* as moving across forms [horizons] as trans-versals [or > >>>> trans-verse-als] . > >>>>>> I have an intuition that this type of witnessing is radical, going > >>>>>> to the roots of our being human together. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Aria, I look forward to further re-search Larry > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Aria Razfar > wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> For those of us working with Kris' sociocritical perspective, > >>>>>>> third space has been a valuable construct for thinking about > >>>>>>> collective learning zopeds and consciousness for that matter. It > >>>>>>> is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its > >>>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., > >>>>>>> liminality, double consciousness, third place, etc.). The > >>>>>>> post-colonial uptake of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) > >>>>>>> within the sociocultural theory is a very specific stance and this > >>>>>>> might be the moment for that conversation as > >>>>>> well. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Aria > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > >>>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of > >>>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of > >>>>>>> Illinois at Chicago > >>>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > >>>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and > >>>>>>> Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Webpage: > >>>>>>> http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > >>>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 > >>>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kris > >>>>>>> Gutierrez > >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:56 PM > >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Annalisa, Manuel initiated the last uptake. (I think others have > >>>>>>> clarified that now :) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Mike C., Miguel Zavala, Larry Purss and I posted some thoughts > >>>>>>> before the holidays. For me it is useful to connect Manuel?s > >>>>>>> recent post to those earlier thoughts/conversations. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Some very quick very unedited thoughts following up on Manuel?s > post: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Michael G., Mike C. correctly points out that the > >>>>>>> testimonios/autobiographies were not research techniques but > >>>>>>> generative tools that were indeed a part of the interconnected set > >>>>>>> of practices that created a collective zoped?a third space if you > >>>> will. > >>>>>>> I try to elaborate this idea in the Scribner Lecture piece > >>>>>>> (sociocritical literacies). My own work on Third Space, the > >>>>>>> collective work of the instructional team of MSI, ongoing > >>>>>>> conversations with Mike C. and Yrjo over the years at the lab, and > >>>>>>> their work certainly informed this idea of a collective zoped, > >>>>>>> collective third space (See Engestr?m, 1987, 1994 in particular; > >>>>>>> Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993; Tuomi-Gr?hn & Engestr?m, 2003; Tuomi- > >>>>>>> Gr?hn, Engestr?m, & Young, 2003; Chaiklin, 2003, Moll, 1990; Moll > >>>>>>> & Greenberg, 1990 as key examples that certainly inform this work > >>>>>>> as > >>>>> well. > >>>>>> And LSV and Bakhtin are ever present). > >>>>>>> These, I think, are useful references, all cited in the article. > >>>>>>> Shirin Vossoughi?s recent MCA piece also is very relevant to this > >>>>>> discussion. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Some relevant excerpts from the sociocritical article, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> "To illustrate these points and their relation to a collective > >>>>>>> Third Space, let us examine the MSLI more closely. > >>>>>>> The activity system, the MSLI, has a specific internal logic > >>>>>>> organized around expanding the students? sociohistorical and > >>>>>>> educational ecology through the collective imagining of a new > >>>>>>> educational and sociopolitical future. > >>>>>>> To avoid the ?interactional reductionism implicit in much > >>>>>>> Vygotskian-inspired research? (Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993, p. 284), > >>>>>>> the specific interactions and practices of the MSLI are understood > >>>>>>> as what Nicolopoulou and Cole call a ?genuinely collective reality? > >>>>> (p. 284). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Here we see the [Migrant] institute as an example of the Third > >>>>>>> Space, a collective zo-ped, at the larger level of activity the > >>>>>>> object of which is the sociohistorical reconstruction of what it > >>>>>>> means to be a migrant student. > >>>>>>> This movement involves a process of becoming conscious ?historical > >>>>>> actors? > >>>>>>> (Espinoza, 2003) who invoke the past in order to re-mediate it so > >>>>>>> that it becomes a resource for current and future action (p. 154)." > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Testimonios and their embodiment in Teatro del Oprimido (Boal?s > >>>>>>> Theatre of the Oppressed that Manuel introduced to us and the > >>>>>>> program and that he and Vossoughi elaborated) were key means of > >>>>>>> developing/inciting a new social and pedagogical imagination and > >>>>>>> for imagining new futures with/for the migrant students, their > >>>>>>> communities, and indeed for all of us, as Manuel so thoughtfully > >>>>>>> writes. Teatro served as a collective problem-solving space?a > >>>>>>> space where the playful imagination helped to make inequities and > >>>>>>> the roots of social problems visible, while providing an > >>>>>>> opportunity to re-frame events, re-mediate and enact an imagined > >>>>>>> future collectively (such as flying collectively/social dreaming). > >>>>>>> I hope Manuel and Shirin jump in and elaborate these thoughts. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Re: Research design: For me, Migrant was in Yrjo and Mike's > >>>>>>> approach, a formative experiment; what I term social design > >>>>>>> experiments?a designed based research approach that foregrounds > >>>>>>> equity, diversity, historicity, and re-mediation, for example. As > >>>>>>> Susan Jurow and I wrote and presented at the ICLS conference this > >>>>>>> summer (a piece that we expect will be part of a larger set of > >>>>>>> papers with Mike C., Yrjo and Annalisa, and Bill Penuel), social > >>>>>>> design experiments: aim to make possible a sustainable and > >>>>>>> dignified life for all humans; address the challenges of > >>>>>>> leveraging cultural diversity and reducing social inequality; and > >>>>>>> call for the co-design of new tools and futures with members of > >>>>>>> non-dominant communities, as but a few key design principles. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Absolutely, research as re-searching?searching for the answer > >>>>>>> to a question you have searched for repeatedly without success! > >>>>>>> Well said, Miguel Cole! Thanks, for your thoughts, Michael > Glassman! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> more on sociocritical literacies, later. kris > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Kris Gutierrez > >>>>>>> gutierkd@gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Kris D. Guti?rrez > >>>>>>> Professor > >>>>>>> Graduate School of Education > >>>>>>> 5629 Tolman Hall #1670 > >>>>>>> University of California, Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-1670 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Distinguished Professor > >>>>>>> Learning Sciences and Literacy > >>>>>>> School of Education > >>>>>>> University of Colorado, Boulder > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Annalisa Aguilar > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hello! > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Sorry for being silly here, but I couldn't help but see that so > >>>>>>>> far on > >>>>>>> this thread, there have been appearances by: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> mike, Annalisa, Michael, Luisa, and Miguel! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>> Assistant Professor > >>> Department of Anthropology > >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>> Brigham Young University > >>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >> > >> > > > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Jan 4 12:38:40 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 13:38:40 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3CA5E5DA-628B-43E8-BFC4-F41AA091E1B9@gmail.com> I am still catching up, but I want to testify to my listening: I am heartend by weaving ?truth? into this thread. Thanks to Larry! If it is ?romantic? it is not overly romantic. And without hope, I get depressed, suicidally depressed, unable to act. The A of CHAT. Perhaps there is somebody listening in who has not experienced hopelessness. I?m listening. Henry > On Jan 3, 2015, at 2:37 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > Martin's chapter 4 [page 95] *hermeneutics and the project for a human > science* may contribute something general to *living in truth* that is > never objective, but always prejudiced or preconceived. Martin, commenting > on Gadamer's "philosophical hermeneutics [in contrast to Romantic > hermeneutics], references Bernstein: > > There are some forms of prejudice that we must have the courage to confront > - such as racism or sexism. But our preconceptions are our involvement in > history, our participation in traditional cultural practices. They "have a > threefold temporal character > - they are handed down to us through tradition; > - they are constitutive of what we are now (and are in the process of > becoming); > - and they are anticipatory - always OPEN to future testing and > transformation. > Our preconceptions set limits beyond which we DO NOT SEE, but they are not > fixed and we are constantly testing them. One important way we test our > preconceptions [prejudices] is THROUGH encounters with other people. > > On page 94 Martin explores the notion of *truth*. Gadamer points out there > is no objective foolproof method leading to *truth*. But Gadamer did NOT > believe there was NO truth. We need to think differently about *truth*: A > true interpretation IS one which points out something RELEVANT in our > present situation that we had not noticed. > > Therefore *truth* is an encounter with the other that is relevant to our > current prejudices and preconceptions. To *live in truth* requires > re-search such as testimonio [not research as objective truth]. > > Others may consider this approach itself as too *romantic* but it does > explore ways of arriving at a fusion of horizons [both fusion and tension] > that includes critique and confronting our inevitable prejudices in a > dialogical *spirit* of *hearing each other into voice*. > Is this hopelessly optimistic and obscure or is it possibly relevant to > overcoming prejudices? > No demonizing the other but still honouring relevant *truth* > > Larry > > On Sat, Jan 3, 2015 at 12:50 PM, wrote: > >> Helena, >> I was hoping that others might be able to tell me that this has already >> been done. Seems like lots of people are in this kind of game but nobody >> has really talked about it explicitly (as far as I can tell - maybe some >> whiteness theorists but in a very circumscribed way). and I'm quite certain >> that no one has deal with it in a sufficiently sophisticated manner to be >> able to hedge off the kinds of concerns that Francine raises. >> Anyone have any thoughts? Perhaps this should be a different thread? >> And yes, Freire has this on his radar but not nearly explicitly enough to >> where it could be employed I. Some meaningful way in practice. >> Greg >> Ps, and yes my comment entirely sidesteps definitional issues of who >> counts as subaltern or not. That is a huge and mucky issue. But not sure >> it is worth getting bogged down in it... >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:24 PM, Helena Worthen >> wrote: >>> >>> Greg -- that's a great idea. I think is has been done, but without a >> label. Want to nominate an example? >>> >>> Helena >>> >>> >>> Helena Worthen >>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>> >>>> On Jan 3, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: >>>> >>>> Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much a >>>> question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" >>>> >>>> Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. >>>> >>>> -greg >>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Aria Razfar wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Miguel/Mike, >>>>> >>>>> I think we have a testimonio here. We have questions borne out of a >>>>> traumatic historical and social episode (WWII), followed by a movement >>>>> outward "going East," only to discover one's self "Dewey." The self >> becomes >>>>> an allegory for the whole. It may seem that Spivak is saying >> translation is >>>>> impossible, but I think a testimonio shows the possibility of >> translation. >>>>> Thanks for this gift and happy new year! >>>>> >>>>> Aria >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:23 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>> >>>>> I inherited such questions as part of my family history and my coming >> to >>>>> age during the period of post world war II decolonization, Aria, well >>>>> before I travelled East, as you suggest. Interestingly, it was in >> going in >>>>> East that I discovered Dewey.... such was the form of education that >> led to >>>>> my phd. >>>>> >>>>> Concerning misleading translations. >>>>> I have PLENTY of problems with issues of translating Vygotsky, in words >>>>> and in practice! Ask any Russian or scholar whose knowledge of Russian >> was >>>>> acquired after the age of 20! (Plenty right here on xmca, one I can see >>>>> logged into gmail right now). There is a piece in MCA a while back on >> the >>>>> perils of translating a key term involving eaching/learning/instruction >>>>> that is part of an ongoing set of questions about the meaning of the >> term, >>>>> zone of proximal development. >>>>> >>>>> Peter's note with the distinction between decolonial/postcolonial >> seems to >>>>> pick up on some of the themes that various folks who participated in >> the >>>>> Migrant program are making. Gotta check out wikipedia on third >> spaces. The >>>>> metaphor sure has a lot of homes in a lot of discourse communities and >> I >>>>> suspect that some translation will be needed! >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Aria Razfar >> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike, would you say that you have been seeking answers to these >>>>>> questions by "going East"? I think Spivak would agree with the second >>>>>> question. In "Translating into English" she talks about how >>>>>> "generations of empiricist English translators have missed the point >>>>>> with Marx's philosophical presuppositions, translated 'inhaltslos' as >>>>>> 'slight in content' and thus made nonsense out of the entire >>>>>> discussion of value. You may have had a smiliar experience translating >>>>> Vygotsky. >>>>>> >>>>>> Here it is: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://przeklad.nazwa.pl/schowek/spivak2.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 1:07 PM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>> >>>>>> Aria--- I had not read the Spivak article, although the question she >>>>>> asks is one I have been asking myself for half a century. And, I would >>>>>> add, under what conditions? >>>>>> >>>>>> I found the article here in case others share my ignorance. >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >> http://www.mcgill.ca/files/crclaw-discourse/Can_the_subaltern_speak.pd >>>>>> f >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Aria Razfar >> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Larry, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The specific stance that is amplified by the intersections of "third >>>>>>> space" post-colonial theory, sociocultural theory, and "testimonio" >>>>>>> is somewhat apparent in the language choice. There is no English >>>>>>> equivalent because there cannot be an English equivalent. At least, >>>>>>> there cannot be an "English-Only" equivalent. It represents a >>>>>>> movement toward an indigenous stance on voice, agency, knowledge, >>>>>>> certainty, validity, language choice, and learning. I say a "movement >>>>> toward" >>>>>>> because Spanish itself carries similar baggage especially within the >>>>>>> Latin American context. This is the rationale for why some use the >>>>>>> Aztec idea of Nepantla instead of "Third Space" (e.g., Rochelle >>>>>>> Guiterrez, Gloria Anzaldua). "Testimonio" further complicates what >>>>>>> it means for "subalterns" to "reclaim voice" through the dominant >>>>> voice. >>>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>>>>> outside" the inscribed institutional roles, together in order to >>>>>>> move "to the roots of our being human together." Spivak was >>>>>>> specfically critiqueing "the Western intellectual" voice wondering >>>>>>> if it truly could be a tool of liberation. It seems like a "core" >>>>>>> identity question as we move through various historical >>>>>>> entanglements seeking answers to ontological questions of self in >>>>>>> relation to other. Also >>>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of Illinois >>>>>>> at Chicago >>>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and Action >>>>>>> Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Webpage: http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the >>>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step >>>>>>> outside" the inscribed roles, together in order to move "to the >>>>>>> roots of our being human together." It seems like a "core" identity >>>>>>> question as we move through various historical entanglements seeking >>>>>>> answers to ontological questions of self in relation to other. Also >>>>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+Purss >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:08 PM >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria, >>>>>>> I want to repeat and amplify your suggestion : >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., liminality, >>>>>>> double consciousness, third place, etc.). The post-colonial uptake >>>>>>> of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) within the sociocultural >>>>>>> theory is a very specific stance and this might be the moment for >>>>>>> that >>>>>> conversation as well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To focus on the *third space* as a VERY SPECIFIC stance. >>>>>>> I would like to become clear on the centrality of *witnessing* as >>>>>>> central or the re-search fades away. >>>>>>> Also terms such as *mutuality* contrasted with *reciprocity* or >>>>>>> *transactions*. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Testimonios as neither subjective [alone] or objective [alone] but a >>>>>>> hybrid MODE that is a form of witnessing. >>>>>>> I would also suggest the theme of *gift* as more than transaction or >>>>>>> echange [in continental philosophy traditions] is relevant. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is a *spirit* and a moral virtue within this form of >>>>>>> witnessing as *third space* that plays around with notions of >>>>>>> *trans* as moving across forms [horizons] as trans-versals [or >>>>> trans-verse-als] . >>>>>>> I have an intuition that this type of witnessing is radical, going >>>>>>> to the roots of our being human together. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aria, I look forward to further re-search Larry >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Aria Razfar >> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For those of us working with Kris' sociocritical perspective, >>>>>>>> third space has been a valuable construct for thinking about >>>>>>>> collective learning zopeds and consciousness for that matter. It >>>>>>>> is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its >>>>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., >>>>>>>> liminality, double consciousness, third place, etc.). The >>>>>>>> post-colonial uptake of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) >>>>>>>> within the sociocultural theory is a very specific stance and this >>>>>>>> might be the moment for that conversation as >>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Aria >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. >>>>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of >>>>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of >>>>>>>> Illinois at Chicago >>>>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 >>>>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and >>>>>>>> Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Webpage: >>>>>>>> http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd >>>>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 >>>>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kris >>>>>>>> Gutierrez >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:56 PM >>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Annalisa, Manuel initiated the last uptake. (I think others have >>>>>>>> clarified that now :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mike C., Miguel Zavala, Larry Purss and I posted some thoughts >>>>>>>> before the holidays. For me it is useful to connect Manuel?s >>>>>>>> recent post to those earlier thoughts/conversations. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some very quick very unedited thoughts following up on Manuel?s >> post: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Michael G., Mike C. correctly points out that the >>>>>>>> testimonios/autobiographies were not research techniques but >>>>>>>> generative tools that were indeed a part of the interconnected set >>>>>>>> of practices that created a collective zoped?a third space if you >>>>> will. >>>>>>>> I try to elaborate this idea in the Scribner Lecture piece >>>>>>>> (sociocritical literacies). My own work on Third Space, the >>>>>>>> collective work of the instructional team of MSI, ongoing >>>>>>>> conversations with Mike C. and Yrjo over the years at the lab, and >>>>>>>> their work certainly informed this idea of a collective zoped, >>>>>>>> collective third space (See Engestr?m, 1987, 1994 in particular; >>>>>>>> Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993; Tuomi-Gr?hn & Engestr?m, 2003; Tuomi- >>>>>>>> Gr?hn, Engestr?m, & Young, 2003; Chaiklin, 2003, Moll, 1990; Moll >>>>>>>> & Greenberg, 1990 as key examples that certainly inform this work >>>>>>>> as >>>>>> well. >>>>>>> And LSV and Bakhtin are ever present). >>>>>>>> These, I think, are useful references, all cited in the article. >>>>>>>> Shirin Vossoughi?s recent MCA piece also is very relevant to this >>>>>>> discussion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some relevant excerpts from the sociocritical article, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "To illustrate these points and their relation to a collective >>>>>>>> Third Space, let us examine the MSLI more closely. >>>>>>>> The activity system, the MSLI, has a specific internal logic >>>>>>>> organized around expanding the students? sociohistorical and >>>>>>>> educational ecology through the collective imagining of a new >>>>>>>> educational and sociopolitical future. >>>>>>>> To avoid the ?interactional reductionism implicit in much >>>>>>>> Vygotskian-inspired research? (Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993, p. 284), >>>>>>>> the specific interactions and practices of the MSLI are understood >>>>>>>> as what Nicolopoulou and Cole call a ?genuinely collective reality? >>>>>> (p. 284). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here we see the [Migrant] institute as an example of the Third >>>>>>>> Space, a collective zo-ped, at the larger level of activity the >>>>>>>> object of which is the sociohistorical reconstruction of what it >>>>>>>> means to be a migrant student. >>>>>>>> This movement involves a process of becoming conscious ?historical >>>>>>> actors? >>>>>>>> (Espinoza, 2003) who invoke the past in order to re-mediate it so >>>>>>>> that it becomes a resource for current and future action (p. 154)." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Testimonios and their embodiment in Teatro del Oprimido (Boal?s >>>>>>>> Theatre of the Oppressed that Manuel introduced to us and the >>>>>>>> program and that he and Vossoughi elaborated) were key means of >>>>>>>> developing/inciting a new social and pedagogical imagination and >>>>>>>> for imagining new futures with/for the migrant students, their >>>>>>>> communities, and indeed for all of us, as Manuel so thoughtfully >>>>>>>> writes. Teatro served as a collective problem-solving space?a >>>>>>>> space where the playful imagination helped to make inequities and >>>>>>>> the roots of social problems visible, while providing an >>>>>>>> opportunity to re-frame events, re-mediate and enact an imagined >>>>>>>> future collectively (such as flying collectively/social dreaming). >>>>>>>> I hope Manuel and Shirin jump in and elaborate these thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Re: Research design: For me, Migrant was in Yrjo and Mike's >>>>>>>> approach, a formative experiment; what I term social design >>>>>>>> experiments?a designed based research approach that foregrounds >>>>>>>> equity, diversity, historicity, and re-mediation, for example. As >>>>>>>> Susan Jurow and I wrote and presented at the ICLS conference this >>>>>>>> summer (a piece that we expect will be part of a larger set of >>>>>>>> papers with Mike C., Yrjo and Annalisa, and Bill Penuel), social >>>>>>>> design experiments: aim to make possible a sustainable and >>>>>>>> dignified life for all humans; address the challenges of >>>>>>>> leveraging cultural diversity and reducing social inequality; and >>>>>>>> call for the co-design of new tools and futures with members of >>>>>>>> non-dominant communities, as but a few key design principles. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Absolutely, research as re-searching?searching for the answer >>>>>>>> to a question you have searched for repeatedly without success! >>>>>>>> Well said, Miguel Cole! Thanks, for your thoughts, Michael Glassman! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> more on sociocritical literacies, later. kris >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kris Gutierrez >>>>>>>> gutierkd@gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kris D. Guti?rrez >>>>>>>> Professor >>>>>>>> Graduate School of Education >>>>>>>> 5629 Tolman Hall #1670 >>>>>>>> University of California, Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-1670 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Distinguished Professor >>>>>>>> Learning Sciences and Literacy >>>>>>>> School of Education >>>>>>>> University of Colorado, Boulder >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sorry for being silly here, but I couldn't help but see that so >>>>>>>>> far on >>>>>>>> this thread, there have been appearances by: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mike, Annalisa, Michael, Luisa, and Miguel! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >>> >> >> From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jan 4 12:46:06 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 20:46:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? Message-ID: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> Hi, I am peeling off from the old thread to begin a new thread! Our inquiry hear appears to be: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? I suggest "a" and not "the" because there could be more than one, surely? For new arrivers to this thread, it commenced from this thread here: http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848 With its genesis here, thanks to Greg! http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848?keywords=#52332? Kind regards, Annalisa From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Jan 4 13:03:36 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 14:03:36 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F907E885@CIO-KRC-D2MBX08.osuad.osu.edu> <1419961849204.99@unm.edu> <7334DDE3-FF9A-45E1-8E4C-1D23EF114C72@gmail.com> <00d601d0247b$fb0599d0$f110cd70$@uic.edu> <01fb01d02528$065026a0$12f073e0$@uic.edu> <022e01d02532$f2f85d60$d8e91820$@uic.edu> <02cb01d025d3$5c887bc0$15997340$@uic.edu> <3E2B2C1E-3CCA-47DB-AF7E-32766A7D29BD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Helena, Your post about a "pedagogy of the oppressor" being what we have today seems apt as you state it but is precisely the opposite of what I had meant by the idea in the first place. Rather, my point was that perhaps more important than a pedagogy of the oppressed is the need for a pedagogy of the oppressors - a pedagogy that can teach (and yes liberate) those persons who occupy the position of "oppressors". I find it strange to think that it is only the oppressed who need to be educated. As to Francine's question of "who are the oppressors?", I have a tendency to view human beings rather optimistically. I'm not a big fan of Machiavellian imaginings of "elites" who hold power and pull strings to their great benefit while others suffer and the elites laugh maniacally. I think that the situation, as Francine notes, is a bit more complicated, and perhaps a bit less pleasant. My sense is that the best way to understand "who are the oppressors" is as "those who benefit disproportionately from the current system of power, and as a result as those who unthinkingly support the current system of power." Thus, the "oppressors" certainly include elites who hugely benefit from the way things are but I don't think that they necessarily do it for malicious reasons. I think these elites often want others to succeed as much as they have - working on the assumption that everyone can have a disproportionate share of the pie (cf. Keilor's Minnesota town where all the kids are above average), but these elites have not been properly educated to be able to recognize that not everyone can have a disproportionate share of the pie. (and here is where the Lave quote you mentioned is really important and it seems like an understanding of the social and collective nature of human capacities would be an important part of any pedagogy of the oppressors in my sense of the term (i.e., what oppressors SHOULD know) since a highly individualistic view of the world serves to justify the place of the elites and hence is a part of the pedagogy of the oppressors in your sense of the term (i.e., what people learn today). But I think that the "oppressors" should also include many non-elites who have benefitted disproportionately from the way things are and who thus don't have much of an incentive to see things change. I wouldn't want to go so far as to say that we are all oppressors but I also wouldn't want to draw any hard and fast lines regarding who counts as oppressor and who as oppressed. We all are, to some degree, both. But we are certainly more of one than the other as we move through the world and as the world changes around (and through!) us. And apologies to the keepers of this thread for I fear we have hijacked third space! Oh the irony. (is it too late to move the thread over? Perhaps if anyone has a response, they could start anew?) -greg On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Helena Worthen wrote: > Larry (and I know I'm violating my principle of not addressing people by > name): > > The comment is part of a quote from Lave. Yes, she was addressing the > elite -- mostly professors of one sort or another, and selected from among > those professors who could get funding to go to AERA. But good-hearted > people, nonetheless! > > You're right about how hard it is to untangle the knots into which > different pedagogies are tied. One way is to think of the whole regime as > an activity system, which is defined by its purpose. Simpler, and probably > better, is to ask what I've heard called "the Freireian questions": "For > whom, by whom, and for what purpose?" I think I heard Peter McClaren use > these questions. I actually saw them posted on the wall of the union hall > of the teachers' union in Mexico City -- one of the Coordinadora > (dissenting) unions; dissenting from the neoliberal project of > privatization. (Note that the murder of the 43 student teachers is all part > of this movement and it's suppression). > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinadora_Nacional_de_Trabajadores_de_la_Educaci?n > > I work in a field that distinguishes itself explicitly from the Pedagogy > of the Oppressor regime. (I have to laugh when I write this -- it sounds > pretty stiff!). The people I teach are likely to have long since given up > on the "social dream" that you speak of, since they've seen their real > wages go down and their labor rights attacked. Labor education is "For > whom" -- working people who want better, safer jobs; "By whom" -- often, > people like me with both teaching and union experience, but better yet, > educated union activists teaching each other, " and "For what purpose?" -- > to build enough collective power and capacity to make changes in their own > workplaces first, in society second. > > It's not something anyone can do alone, so the whole project is collective. > > I'm happy to change the subject line if anyone else wants to untangle the > Pedagogy of the Oppressor notion. Looking back, I think the idea was first > uttered as a joke -- that I decided to take seriously. > > H > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Jan 4, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Helena, > > Your comment... > > > > "the logic that makes success exceptional": [at elite centers of > learning] > > > > How do we move beyond this social *fact* that the desire and wish to be > > "exceptional" is the current "social dream" of many who participate in > > "social dreaming"? When reading about the "social dreaming" of "third > > spaces" the "designers" of this social dream often work from these elite > > centers of learning. > > I assumethat where Lave gave her address she was also speaking to a group > > of "exceptional" learners who arrived to listen to her from elite centers > > of learning. > > > > Being "exceptional" [rather than ordinary] is one of the main values > > perpetuated at "elite" centers. How do we come to value "ordinary" > learning > > if the centers from which social dreaming is often developed are places > of > > exceptionality. > > > > THIS TYPE OF LOGIC seems to be a particularly difficult notion to > untangle > > when the knots themselves are developed at elite centers of learning. > Elite > > centers also become the forum for distributing the *truth* of many > social > > dreams [and often give the social dreams legitimacy] > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Helena Worthen > > wrote: > > > >> Greg - > >> > >> Quickly, since the thread is moving on. I'm arguing that a "Pedagogy of > >> the Oppressor" is what we've got going on throughout our educational > >> system. At the elite heights, students learn how to rule the world; in > the > >> depths, the same pedagogy functions as social control. > >> > >> Here is a quote from Lave's article "teaching, as Learning, in > Practice," > >> which was published in MCA vol 3 no 3. The article is drawn from her > >> acceptance speech at AERA when she got the Sylvia Scribner award. She > says: > >> > >> "...theories that conceive of learning as a special universal mental > >> process impoverish and mis-recognize it...Theories that reduce learning > to > >> individual mental capacity/activity in the last instance blame > marginalized > >> people for being marginal. Common theories of learning begin and end > with > >> individual (though these days they often nod at "the social" or "the > >> environment" in between). Such theories are deeply concerned with > >> individual differences, with notions of better and worse, more and less > >> learning, and with comparison of these things across > >> group-of-individuals... the logic that makes success exceptional but > >> nonetheless characterizes lack of success as not normal won't do. A > >> reconsideration of learning as a social, collective, rather than > >> individual, psychological phenomenon offers the only way beyond the > current > >> state of affiars that i can envision at the present time." > >> > >> It sounds to me as if she is thinking of (although this was 1996) both > No > >> Child Left Behind and Race to the Top. Right? But she was writing just > when > >> the trend in that direction was getting going. the Clinton years, when > >> people were intoxicated with the first vast applications of computer > >> technology which would make testing so much easier. > >> > >> Helena > >> > >> > >> Helena Worthen > >> helenaworthen@gmail.com > >> > >> On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:50 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > >> > >>> Helena, > >>> I was hoping that others might be able to tell me that this has already > >> been done. Seems like lots of people are in this kind of game but nobody > >> has really talked about it explicitly (as far as I can tell - maybe some > >> whiteness theorists but in a very circumscribed way). and I'm quite > certain > >> that no one has deal with it in a sufficiently sophisticated manner to > be > >> able to hedge off the kinds of concerns that Francine raises. > >>> Anyone have any thoughts? Perhaps this should be a different thread? > >>> And yes, Freire has this on his radar but not nearly explicitly enough > >> to where it could be employed I. Some meaningful way in practice. > >>> Greg > >>> Ps, and yes my comment entirely sidesteps definitional issues of who > >> counts as subaltern or not. That is a huge and mucky issue. But not > sure > >> it is worth getting bogged down in it... > >>> > >>> Sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>>> On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:24 PM, Helena Worthen > >> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Greg -- that's a great idea. I think is has been done, but without a > >> label. Want to nominate an example? > >>>> > >>>> Helena > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Helena Worthen > >>>> helenaworthen@gmail.com > >>>> > >>>>> On Jan 3, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Seems to me that Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" is just as much > a > >>>>> question of "Can the Western intellectual hear/listen?" > >>>>> > >>>>> Makes me wonder about articulating a Pedagogy of the Oppressors. > >>>>> > >>>>> -greg > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Aria Razfar > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel/Mike, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I think we have a testimonio here. We have questions borne out of a > >>>>>> traumatic historical and social episode (WWII), followed by a > movement > >>>>>> outward "going East," only to discover one's self "Dewey." The self > >> becomes > >>>>>> an allegory for the whole. It may seem that Spivak is saying > >> translation is > >>>>>> impossible, but I think a testimonio shows the possibility of > >> translation. > >>>>>> Thanks for this gift and happy new year! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Aria > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:23 PM > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I inherited such questions as part of my family history and my > coming > >> to > >>>>>> age during the period of post world war II decolonization, Aria, > well > >>>>>> before I travelled East, as you suggest. Interestingly, it was in > >> going in > >>>>>> East that I discovered Dewey.... such was the form of education that > >> led to > >>>>>> my phd. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Concerning misleading translations. > >>>>>> I have PLENTY of problems with issues of translating Vygotsky, in > >> words > >>>>>> and in practice! Ask any Russian or scholar whose knowledge of > >> Russian was > >>>>>> acquired after the age of 20! (Plenty right here on xmca, one I can > >> see > >>>>>> logged into gmail right now). There is a piece in MCA a while back > on > >> the > >>>>>> perils of translating a key term involving > >> eaching/learning/instruction > >>>>>> that is part of an ongoing set of questions about the meaning of the > >> term, > >>>>>> zone of proximal development. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Peter's note with the distinction between decolonial/postcolonial > >> seems to > >>>>>> pick up on some of the themes that various folks who participated in > >> the > >>>>>> Migrant program are making. Gotta check out wikipedia on third > >> spaces. The > >>>>>> metaphor sure has a lot of homes in a lot of discourse communities > >> and I > >>>>>> suspect that some translation will be needed! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> mike > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Aria Razfar > >> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Mike, would you say that you have been seeking answers to these > >>>>>>> questions by "going East"? I think Spivak would agree with the > second > >>>>>>> question. In "Translating into English" she talks about how > >>>>>>> "generations of empiricist English translators have missed the > point > >>>>>>> with Marx's philosophical presuppositions, translated 'inhaltslos' > as > >>>>>>> 'slight in content' and thus made nonsense out of the entire > >>>>>>> discussion of value. You may have had a smiliar experience > >> translating > >>>>>> Vygotsky. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Here it is: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://przeklad.nazwa.pl/schowek/spivak2.pdf > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Aria > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 1:07 PM > >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Aria--- I had not read the Spivak article, although the question > she > >>>>>>> asks is one I have been asking myself for half a century. And, I > >> would > >>>>>>> add, under what conditions? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I found the article here in case others share my ignorance. > >>>>>>> mike > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >> http://www.mcgill.ca/files/crclaw-discourse/Can_the_subaltern_speak.pd > >>>>>>> f > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Aria Razfar > >> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Larry, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The specific stance that is amplified by the intersections of > "third > >>>>>>>> space" post-colonial theory, sociocultural theory, and > "testimonio" > >>>>>>>> is somewhat apparent in the language choice. There is no English > >>>>>>>> equivalent because there cannot be an English equivalent. At > least, > >>>>>>>> there cannot be an "English-Only" equivalent. It represents a > >>>>>>>> movement toward an indigenous stance on voice, agency, knowledge, > >>>>>>>> certainty, validity, language choice, and learning. I say a > >> "movement > >>>>>> toward" > >>>>>>>> because Spanish itself carries similar baggage especially within > the > >>>>>>>> Latin American context. This is the rationale for why some use the > >>>>>>>> Aztec idea of Nepantla instead of "Third Space" (e.g., Rochelle > >>>>>>>> Guiterrez, Gloria Anzaldua). "Testimonio" further complicates what > >>>>>>>> it means for "subalterns" to "reclaim voice" through the dominant > >>>>>> voice. > >>>>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the > >>>>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step > >>>>>>>> outside" the inscribed institutional roles, together in order to > >>>>>>>> move "to the roots of our being human together." Spivak was > >>>>>>>> specfically critiqueing "the Western intellectual" voice wondering > >>>>>>>> if it truly could be a tool of liberation. It seems like a "core" > >>>>>>>> identity question as we move through various historical > >>>>>>>> entanglements seeking answers to ontological questions of self in > >>>>>>>> relation to other. Also > >>>>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Aria > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > >>>>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director of > >>>>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of > Illinois > >>>>>>>> at Chicago > >>>>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > >>>>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and > Action > >>>>>>>> Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Webpage: > http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > >>>>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 > >>>>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> This is the heart-wrenching question raised by Spivak, "Can the > >>>>>>>> subaltern speak?" Both the altern and the subaltern need to "step > >>>>>>>> outside" the inscribed roles, together in order to move "to the > >>>>>>>> roots of our being human together." It seems like a "core" > identity > >>>>>>>> question as we move through various historical entanglements > seeking > >>>>>>>> answers to ontological questions of self in relation to other. > Also > >>>>>>>> looking forward to this type of re-search. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Aria > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+arazfar=uic.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of > Larry > >>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+Purss > >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:08 PM > >>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Aria, > >>>>>>>> I want to repeat and amplify your suggestion : > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its > >>>>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., > liminality, > >>>>>>>> double consciousness, third place, etc.). The post-colonial uptake > >>>>>>>> of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) within the > sociocultural > >>>>>>>> theory is a very specific stance and this might be the moment for > >>>>>>>> that > >>>>>>> conversation as well. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To focus on the *third space* as a VERY SPECIFIC stance. > >>>>>>>> I would like to become clear on the centrality of *witnessing* as > >>>>>>>> central or the re-search fades away. > >>>>>>>> Also terms such as *mutuality* contrasted with *reciprocity* or > >>>>>>>> *transactions*. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Testimonios as neither subjective [alone] or objective [alone] > but a > >>>>>>>> hybrid MODE that is a form of witnessing. > >>>>>>>> I would also suggest the theme of *gift* as more than transaction > or > >>>>>>>> echange [in continental philosophy traditions] is relevant. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> There is a *spirit* and a moral virtue within this form of > >>>>>>>> witnessing as *third space* that plays around with notions of > >>>>>>>> *trans* as moving across forms [horizons] as trans-versals [or > >>>>>> trans-verse-als] . > >>>>>>>> I have an intuition that this type of witnessing is radical, going > >>>>>>>> to the roots of our being human together. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Aria, I look forward to further re-search Larry > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Aria Razfar > >> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> For those of us working with Kris' sociocritical perspective, > >>>>>>>>> third space has been a valuable construct for thinking about > >>>>>>>>> collective learning zopeds and consciousness for that matter. It > >>>>>>>>> is important to clarify what is meant by "third space" and its > >>>>>>>>> analogous concepts in various schools of thought (e.g., > >>>>>>>>> liminality, double consciousness, third place, etc.). The > >>>>>>>>> post-colonial uptake of third space (e.g., Said, Bhaba, Spivak) > >>>>>>>>> within the sociocultural theory is a very specific stance and > this > >>>>>>>>> might be the moment for that conversation as > >>>>>>>> well. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Aria > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Aria Razfar, Ph.D. > >>>>>>>>> Associate Professor of Literacy, Language, and Culture Director > of > >>>>>>>>> Graduate Studies, Curriculum and Instruction University of > >>>>>>>>> Illinois at Chicago > >>>>>>>>> 1040 W. Harrison St. M/C 147 > >>>>>>>>> Chicago, IL, 60607 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Director of English Learning through Mathematics, Science and > >>>>>>>>> Action Research (ELMSA) www.elmsa.org > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Webpage: > >>>>>>>>> http://education.uic.edu/personnel/faculty/aria-razfar-phd > >>>>>>>>> Tel: 312-413-8373 > >>>>>>>>> Fax: 312-996-8134 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kris > >>>>>>>>> Gutierrez > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:56 PM > >>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sociocritical Literacies and more context > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Annalisa, Manuel initiated the last uptake. (I think others have > >>>>>>>>> clarified that now :) > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Mike C., Miguel Zavala, Larry Purss and I posted some thoughts > >>>>>>>>> before the holidays. For me it is useful to connect Manuel?s > >>>>>>>>> recent post to those earlier thoughts/conversations. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Some very quick very unedited thoughts following up on Manuel?s > >> post: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Michael G., Mike C. correctly points out that the > >>>>>>>>> testimonios/autobiographies were not research techniques but > >>>>>>>>> generative tools that were indeed a part of the interconnected > set > >>>>>>>>> of practices that created a collective zoped?a third space if you > >>>>>> will. > >>>>>>>>> I try to elaborate this idea in the Scribner Lecture piece > >>>>>>>>> (sociocritical literacies). My own work on Third Space, the > >>>>>>>>> collective work of the instructional team of MSI, ongoing > >>>>>>>>> conversations with Mike C. and Yrjo over the years at the lab, > and > >>>>>>>>> their work certainly informed this idea of a collective zoped, > >>>>>>>>> collective third space (See Engestr?m, 1987, 1994 in particular; > >>>>>>>>> Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993; Tuomi-Gr?hn & Engestr?m, 2003; Tuomi- > >>>>>>>>> Gr?hn, Engestr?m, & Young, 2003; Chaiklin, 2003, Moll, 1990; Moll > >>>>>>>>> & Greenberg, 1990 as key examples that certainly inform this work > >>>>>>>>> as > >>>>>>> well. > >>>>>>>> And LSV and Bakhtin are ever present). > >>>>>>>>> These, I think, are useful references, all cited in the article. > >>>>>>>>> Shirin Vossoughi?s recent MCA piece also is very relevant to this > >>>>>>>> discussion. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Some relevant excerpts from the sociocritical article, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> "To illustrate these points and their relation to a collective > >>>>>>>>> Third Space, let us examine the MSLI more closely. > >>>>>>>>> The activity system, the MSLI, has a specific internal logic > >>>>>>>>> organized around expanding the students? sociohistorical and > >>>>>>>>> educational ecology through the collective imagining of a new > >>>>>>>>> educational and sociopolitical future. > >>>>>>>>> To avoid the ?interactional reductionism implicit in much > >>>>>>>>> Vygotskian-inspired research? (Nicolopoulou & Cole, 1993, p. > 284), > >>>>>>>>> the specific interactions and practices of the MSLI are > understood > >>>>>>>>> as what Nicolopoulou and Cole call a ?genuinely collective > reality? > >>>>>>> (p. 284). > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Here we see the [Migrant] institute as an example of the Third > >>>>>>>>> Space, a collective zo-ped, at the larger level of activity the > >>>>>>>>> object of which is the sociohistorical reconstruction of what it > >>>>>>>>> means to be a migrant student. > >>>>>>>>> This movement involves a process of becoming conscious > ?historical > >>>>>>>> actors? > >>>>>>>>> (Espinoza, 2003) who invoke the past in order to re-mediate it so > >>>>>>>>> that it becomes a resource for current and future action (p. > 154)." > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Testimonios and their embodiment in Teatro del Oprimido (Boal?s > >>>>>>>>> Theatre of the Oppressed that Manuel introduced to us and the > >>>>>>>>> program and that he and Vossoughi elaborated) were key means of > >>>>>>>>> developing/inciting a new social and pedagogical imagination and > >>>>>>>>> for imagining new futures with/for the migrant students, their > >>>>>>>>> communities, and indeed for all of us, as Manuel so thoughtfully > >>>>>>>>> writes. Teatro served as a collective problem-solving space?a > >>>>>>>>> space where the playful imagination helped to make inequities and > >>>>>>>>> the roots of social problems visible, while providing an > >>>>>>>>> opportunity to re-frame events, re-mediate and enact an imagined > >>>>>>>>> future collectively (such as flying collectively/social > dreaming). > >>>>>>>>> I hope Manuel and Shirin jump in and elaborate these thoughts. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Re: Research design: For me, Migrant was in Yrjo and Mike's > >>>>>>>>> approach, a formative experiment; what I term social design > >>>>>>>>> experiments?a designed based research approach that foregrounds > >>>>>>>>> equity, diversity, historicity, and re-mediation, for example. As > >>>>>>>>> Susan Jurow and I wrote and presented at the ICLS conference this > >>>>>>>>> summer (a piece that we expect will be part of a larger set of > >>>>>>>>> papers with Mike C., Yrjo and Annalisa, and Bill Penuel), social > >>>>>>>>> design experiments: aim to make possible a sustainable and > >>>>>>>>> dignified life for all humans; address the challenges of > >>>>>>>>> leveraging cultural diversity and reducing social inequality; and > >>>>>>>>> call for the co-design of new tools and futures with members of > >>>>>>>>> non-dominant communities, as but a few key design principles. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Absolutely, research as re-searching?searching for the answer > >>>>>>>>> to a question you have searched for repeatedly without success! > >>>>>>>>> Well said, Miguel Cole! Thanks, for your thoughts, Michael > >> Glassman! > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> more on sociocritical literacies, later. kris > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Kris Gutierrez > >>>>>>>>> gutierkd@gmail.com > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Kris D. Guti?rrez > >>>>>>>>> Professor > >>>>>>>>> Graduate School of Education > >>>>>>>>> 5629 Tolman Hall #1670 > >>>>>>>>> University of California, Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-1670 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Distinguished Professor > >>>>>>>>> Learning Sciences and Literacy > >>>>>>>>> School of Education > >>>>>>>>> University of Colorado, Boulder > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Annalisa Aguilar > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Hello! > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Sorry for being silly here, but I couldn't help but see that so > >>>>>>>>>> far on > >>>>>>>>> this thread, there have been appearances by: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> mike, Annalisa, Michael, Luisa, and Miguel! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as > an > >>>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > >>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>>> Assistant Professor > >>>>> Department of Anthropology > >>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>>> Brigham Young University > >>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Jan 4 13:06:11 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 14:06:11 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> Message-ID: (apologies for double posting, but I didn't see this new thread until I posted this on the other thread. Thanks Annalisa for creating a new one!!) Helena, Your post about a "pedagogy of the oppressor" being what we have today seems apt as you state it but is precisely the opposite of what I had meant by the idea in the first place. Rather, my point was that perhaps more important than a pedagogy of the oppressed is the need for a pedagogy of the oppressors - a pedagogy that can teach (and yes liberate) those persons who occupy the position of "oppressors". I find it strange to think that it is only the oppressed who need to be educated. As to Francine's question of "who are the oppressors?", I have a tendency to view human beings rather optimistically. I'm not a big fan of Machiavellian imaginings of "elites" who hold power and pull strings to their great benefit while others suffer and the elites laugh maniacally. I think that the situation, as Francine notes, is a bit more complicated, and perhaps a bit less pleasant. My sense is that the best way to understand "who are the oppressors" is as "those who benefit disproportionately from the current system of power, and as a result as those who unthinkingly support the current system of power." Thus, the "oppressors" certainly include elites who hugely benefit from the way things are but I don't think that they necessarily do it for malicious reasons. I think these elites often want others to succeed as much as they have - working on the assumption that everyone can have a disproportionate share of the pie (cf. Keilor's Minnesota town where all the kids are above average), but these elites have not been properly educated to be able to recognize that not everyone can have a disproportionate share of the pie. (and here is where the Lave quote you mentioned is really important and it seems like an understanding of the social and collective nature of human capacities would be an important part of any pedagogy of the oppressors in my sense of the term (i.e., what oppressors SHOULD know) since a highly individualistic view of the world serves to justify the place of the elites and hence is a part of the pedagogy of the oppressors in your sense of the term (i.e., what people learn today). But I think that the "oppressors" should also include many non-elites who have benefitted disproportionately from the way things are and who thus don't have much of an incentive to see things change. I wouldn't want to go so far as to say that we are all oppressors but I also wouldn't want to draw any hard and fast lines regarding who counts as oppressor and who as oppressed. We all are, to some degree, both. But we are certainly more of one than the other as we move through the world and as the world changes around (and through!) us. That seems too many directions, but I remain interested in the idea of what a pedagogy of the oppressors might look like. -greg On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi, > > > I am peeling off from the old thread to begin a new thread! > > > Our inquiry hear appears to be: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > I suggest "a" and not "the" because there could be more than one, surely? > > > For new arrivers to this thread, it commenced from this thread here: > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848 > > > With its genesis here, thanks to Greg! > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848?keywords=#52332? > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jan 4 13:46:56 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 13:46:56 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Tensions in the concept testimonio Message-ID: Miguel wrote in the other thread: One of the (many) central problems raised by testimonio, which I also find in standpoint theory (Harding), is the question/tension/exploration of individual AND collective voicing. I was hoping Miguel and others could elaborate on this central *problem* [and central question] Peter's question if testimonio and third spaces also require resistance and therefore he chose to use the concept *hybrid* I am hoping to refocus [re-search] the transformative EFFECT of *third spaces* and link it back to the notion of "truth" as being relevant [not universal]. Using ideas such as "living in truth" or "hearing each other into voice" can develop within third spaces but if there is no resistance must we shift to a notion such as hybrid to understand Miguel's question and problem the tensions within "individual AND collective *voices* Larry I am not sure about starting another thread, but chose to do so to focus back to Miguel's original answer "inviting" receptively further questions. From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jan 4 15:11:18 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 23:11:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1420413078297.87670@unm.edu> Hi Greg and others! Please accept my apology for this very long post, but I trust it will be worth much to you, as I believe there is some Good Thinking in it. I hope you feel as I do, but the only way to know of course is for you to read it! :) I did at first understand your suggestion of Pedagogy of the Oppressors to be how to teach the oppressors not to be oppressors. I believe that we all agree that this would be the end game we all seek, unless one of course wants to be an oppressor and believes that, say, Kublai Khan's society is a perfect model for us. [Meh!] However, I think perhaps a jump that both Helena and I made intuitively (if I am not being presumptuous of Helena's jumping as being like my jumping) is that in order to get the a point of an education that you suggest, Greg, we must first look at how the Oppressors are conditioned to be Oppressors. What is that narrative? It is my sense that an examination of that is mandatory, if not only to prevent replications, which seems easy to do when we are hypnotized by the narrative as being "the" rather than "a" narrative, so that we can consciously pass into the kind of pedagogy that you want to see happen, which is to delegitimize oppression period, and to make a move to somewhere else enlightened and liberated. I don't think we can really get to Somewhere Else until we know Where is Here. There are many many pedagogies to oppress and they are not only in schools. We see it in the construction of race, in class, we see it in the military, in politics, we see it in the factory floor, in prisons, in families, on television and in movies, in advertising and other media, like pop music. It is frightening when one observes "a" pedagogy over "the" pedagogy, how many there are. To look at these "scientifically" we would have to observe each of these environments and see what it is that they have in common. How is oppression expressed? Is the oppression that we think we will find the actual oppression that is expressed? You see, in order to find the solution to oppression we must look at the problem as it is, as we find it. I believe that the solution is inherent in the problem, as tends to be the case of most problems. So in this case 4+7=10, that is, we must start from where we are before we can fully understand that 4+7=11. I'd also like to offer that just as the "East/West" way of discussing oppression fails, so does discussing oppression in terms of "individual/collective," which I sense is what Michael was referencing. Individualism is not bad as long as its practice isn't at the expense of other individuals. Collectivism is not bad, as long as its practice isn't at the expense of other collectives. This is why I sense it may not offer a fruitful analysis. But I do admit is it "a" narrative that we have seen replicated in many ways "east" and "west," "north" and "south." I even wonder if the narrative of "Capitalism/Communism" is also a false construct, that it too is "a" narrative of many layered narratives of oppression. I don't think that what we are learning here is that oppressors need to be taught how not to oppress. What we are learning here is the PEDAGOGY that is taught to people SO THAT they become OPPRESSORS. And like you say, anyone can be oppressed and anyone can be oppressors, and these roles can be turned on and off depending upon the environments that we find ourselves. In this sense, in the end, it is learning how to eliminate a language of oppression so that we can learn a language of peace, of gratitude, of love, of community, of kindness, of caring, and to do so without embarrassment or doubt. I think this is what Larry is suggesting with "social dreaming," but I may be wrong about that. Rather than dream, let's just be in The Here, Right Now and speak freely of what is here and what is missing, and what we want in terms of liberation. Let's not think of elephants in terms of not-elephants, let's think of liberation in terms of liberation. Let's orient to what we want in terms of what we want? Perhaps like Vygotsky, we would have to begin and look at the genesis of oppression, how does it manifest? Is it really BECAUSE of race? is it really BECAUSE of class? I hope people will be patient while I make this suggestion. IF race is the CAUSE of oppression, then it means ALL forms of oppression are explained by race. This simply isn't the case. Same for class, etc. Like you, I believe that we are naturally good, and that the habits of violence and despair are taught to us. We know this because of the innocence of children, and all the art that memorializes the loss of our innocence (like the fall from Eden, etc). THAT we can appreciate the laughter of children MEANS this laughter is within us, otherwise we would not recognize its joy. This is why I look to feeling, sense, affect, emotion, and similar intuitive forms of understanding as our guiding star. It is this understanding of affect that is missing from the language of oppression. It has been corralled away from other forms of logic and intellectual pursuit, as if these are languages of machines. We must look to what the world would look like if Descartes DID NOT NEED to separate mind from body because of threat of persecution of the Church of his day. This is not to say that Descartes was the first dualist, but he is perhaps Our First Dualist who has a particularly long shadow into our lives today, and so it offers us a possible entrance of how to discuss this separation. Of course I am not suggesting a return to a partnership of a monarchy and a theocracy, but instead to consider what would the development of science have been if the mind and the body remained united in our minds and our bodies? Would we have had to wait until Freud to begin examining the mind? I don't believe so. I could argue that the Marquis De Sade was at the threshold of psychology when he wrote 120 Days of Sodom from his cell in the Bastille at the eve of the French Revolution. But this may be seen as too radical a concept for people; I do not mean to offer cruelty as our model, but to suggest that he was examining What Is Cruelty as expressed in the mind IF we were to see it expressed to us in MATERIAL, which would be as bodies sensing pain and pleasure. I think in that kind of world where the mind and body are seen as united and studied in that way, there might be less oppressed people and less people desiring to oppress others. I feel that this separation of mind and body is what de Sade was attempting to expose (in high contrast) and I feel likewise (although the other side of the coin) what Vygotsky was doing in his re-search for a unified psychology, was through a unification mind and body. Otherwise, why study children? The study of children is the site of the whole-human, before the division from our own innocence, "before Descartes." Perhaps the PEDAGOGY that we aspire to create is to show the oppressors how oppressive it is to be an oppressor and how unsustainable a project it is for the planet that we find ourselves standing upon. Thanks for reading this! Kind regards, Annalisa From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sun Jan 4 17:11:23 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 19:11:23 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <1420413078297.87670@unm.edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , <1420413078297.87670@unm.edu> Message-ID: Message from Francine: Another way to understand oppression is to consider the psychology of power. An individual or group with limited resources and/or no awareness of their own abilities is/are easily oppressed. Personal or group liberation means acquiring resources and a realization of self-efficacy (empowerment). Also, the formal education system is not the only way to acquire power. In fact, many people who are high academic achievers find it difficult to get a job that pays more than minimum wage, and/or are burdened with a life-time of student loan debt. This is even true in areas like medicine and computer science. Engineering might be the only exception. Ironically, students who get a college education, and an undergraduate or even graduate degree often have little economic power. The pedagogy of the oppressed is not just oppressive to students who do not do well on exams, ironically most of the academic high achievers are also an exploited and 'oppressed' population. Who are the people that the education system favors, who actually acquire some power because of there academic skills? National Merit Finalists perhaps. Or people who are high academic achievers who also have powerful family connections. Or high academic achievers who live by their wits like Steve Jobs. > From: annalisa@unm.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 23:11:18 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Hi Greg and others! > > Please accept my apology for this very long post, but I trust it will be worth much to you, as I believe there is some Good Thinking in it. I hope you feel as I do, but the only way to know of course is for you to read it! :) > > I did at first understand your suggestion of Pedagogy of the Oppressors to be how to teach the oppressors not to be oppressors. I believe that we all agree that this would be the end game we all seek, unless one of course wants to be an oppressor and believes that, say, Kublai Khan's society is a perfect model for us. [Meh!] > > However, I think perhaps a jump that both Helena and I made intuitively (if I am not being presumptuous of Helena's jumping as being like my jumping) is that in order to get the a point of an education that you suggest, Greg, we must first look at how the Oppressors are conditioned to be Oppressors. What is that narrative? > > It is my sense that an examination of that is mandatory, if not only to prevent replications, which seems easy to do when we are hypnotized by the narrative as being "the" rather than "a" narrative, so that we can consciously pass into the kind of pedagogy that you want to see happen, which is to delegitimize oppression period, and to make a move to somewhere else enlightened and liberated. I don't think we can really get to Somewhere Else until we know Where is Here. > > There are many many pedagogies to oppress and they are not only in schools. We see it in the construction of race, in class, we see it in the military, in politics, we see it in the factory floor, in prisons, in families, on television and in movies, in advertising and other media, like pop music. It is frightening when one observes "a" pedagogy over "the" pedagogy, how many there are. > > To look at these "scientifically" we would have to observe each of these environments and see what it is that they have in common. How is oppression expressed? Is the oppression that we think we will find the actual oppression that is expressed? > > You see, in order to find the solution to oppression we must look at the problem as it is, as we find it. I believe that the solution is inherent in the problem, as tends to be the case of most problems. So in this case 4+7=10, that is, we must start from where we are before we can fully understand that 4+7=11. > > I'd also like to offer that just as the "East/West" way of discussing oppression fails, so does discussing oppression in terms of "individual/collective," which I sense is what Michael was referencing. Individualism is not bad as long as its practice isn't at the expense of other individuals. Collectivism is not bad, as long as its practice isn't at the expense of other collectives. This is why I sense it may not offer a fruitful analysis. But I do admit is it "a" narrative that we have seen replicated in many ways "east" and "west," "north" and "south." > > I even wonder if the narrative of "Capitalism/Communism" is also a false construct, that it too is "a" narrative of many layered narratives of oppression. > > I don't think that what we are learning here is that oppressors need to be taught how not to oppress. What we are learning here is the PEDAGOGY that is taught to people SO THAT they become OPPRESSORS. And like you say, anyone can be oppressed and anyone can be oppressors, and these roles can be turned on and off depending upon the environments that we find ourselves. > > In this sense, in the end, it is learning how to eliminate a language of oppression so that we can learn a language of peace, of gratitude, of love, of community, of kindness, of caring, and to do so without embarrassment or doubt. I think this is what Larry is suggesting with "social dreaming," but I may be wrong about that. Rather than dream, let's just be in The Here, Right Now and speak freely of what is here and what is missing, and what we want in terms of liberation. > > Let's not think of elephants in terms of not-elephants, let's think of liberation in terms of liberation. Let's orient to what we want in terms of what we want? > > Perhaps like Vygotsky, we would have to begin and look at the genesis of oppression, how does it manifest? Is it really BECAUSE of race? is it really BECAUSE of class? I hope people will be patient while I make this suggestion. IF race is the CAUSE of oppression, then it means ALL forms of oppression are explained by race. This simply isn't the case. Same for class, etc. > > Like you, I believe that we are naturally good, and that the habits of violence and despair are taught to us. We know this because of the innocence of children, and all the art that memorializes the loss of our innocence (like the fall from Eden, etc). THAT we can appreciate the laughter of children MEANS this laughter is within us, otherwise we would not recognize its joy. > > This is why I look to feeling, sense, affect, emotion, and similar intuitive forms of understanding as our guiding star. It is this understanding of affect that is missing from the language of oppression. It has been corralled away from other forms of logic and intellectual pursuit, as if these are languages of machines. > > We must look to what the world would look like if Descartes DID NOT NEED to separate mind from body because of threat of persecution of the Church of his day. This is not to say that Descartes was the first dualist, but he is perhaps Our First Dualist who has a particularly long shadow into our lives today, and so it offers us a possible entrance of how to discuss this separation. Of course I am not suggesting a return to a partnership of a monarchy and a theocracy, but instead to consider what would the development of science have been if the mind and the body remained united in our minds and our bodies? Would we have had to wait until Freud to begin examining the mind? I don't believe so. > > I could argue that the Marquis De Sade was at the threshold of psychology when he wrote 120 Days of Sodom from his cell in the Bastille at the eve of the French Revolution. But this may be seen as too radical a concept for people; I do not mean to offer cruelty as our model, but to suggest that he was examining What Is Cruelty as expressed in the mind IF we were to see it expressed to us in MATERIAL, which would be as bodies sensing pain and pleasure. > > I think in that kind of world where the mind and body are seen as united and studied in that way, there might be less oppressed people and less people desiring to oppress others. I feel that this separation of mind and body is what de Sade was attempting to expose (in high contrast) and I feel likewise (although the other side of the coin) what Vygotsky was doing in his re-search for a unified psychology, was through a unification mind and body. > > Otherwise, why study children? The study of children is the site of the whole-human, before the division from our own innocence, "before Descartes." > > Perhaps the PEDAGOGY that we aspire to create is to show the oppressors how oppressive it is to be an oppressor and how unsustainable a project it is for the planet that we find ourselves standing upon. > > Thanks for reading this! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From fsulliva@temple.edu Sun Jan 4 17:16:21 2015 From: fsulliva@temple.edu (FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 20:16:21 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> Message-ID: Wow, this is a great thread, one I think about all the time, as one of the oppressors. Not by choice, as I see this as a structural, or rather a "positional" category, akin to the workings of power in terms of one's relationship to the means of production. I can still recall Horkheimer and Adorno's anecdote in *Dialectic of Enlightenment*, one the ways that the songs of the Sirens went unheard by Odysseus' crew--as he had stoppered their ears--yet remained useless to Odysseus as he was lashed to the mast. So, I certainly agree that we need a pedagogy of the oppressors as a complement to that of the oppressed. I always thought that was the major effort of the Frankfurt School. As someone who teaches secondary school pre-service teachers, I am quite aware of my structural position as an "officer of the State." I was in the middle of revising my syllabi for the upcoming semester when I saw this thread emerge. The advent of the corporate reform of schooling called Common Core poses a fundamental threat to the democratic roots of education in the US, yet I can neither ignore it nor simply trash it. The students I prepare must be able to address the Core if they are to have a career at all. So, for better or worse, I find the best resistance to be the tightest embrace of the "principles" embedded in the Core, an embrace that, I hope, lets me transform them into a useful and useable critique of the Core itself. So, this semester, we examine "speaking" and "writing" standards in terms of dialect, code, and register differences. We develop lessons and units in which high school students grapple with the reality of "code-switching," and the choices one can make to successfully navigate speech and writing situations defined by conflicting purposes and relational hierarchies. Of course, all this is news to my students, almost all of whom are white and middle-class, and most of whom are male. So, I approach these topics by emphasizing that learners develop best when teaching meets them where they are and builds on what they know. I choose texts that de-emphasize the kinds of oppression that plays out in the lives of urban students. So, where does someone like me fit in this mosaic? Are we "leading the resistance from behind; or allowing ourselves to be co-opted?" My answer to that changes at least weekly, sometimes daily. I can only say that I'm doing what I can. Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. Associate Professor Department of Teaching and Learning College of Education Temple University Philadelphia, PA 19122 Find out what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. Frederick Douglass On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi, > > > I am peeling off from the old thread to begin a new thread! > > > Our inquiry hear appears to be: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > I suggest "a" and not "the" because there could be more than one, surely? > > > For new arrivers to this thread, it commenced from this thread here: > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848 > > > With its genesis here, thanks to Greg! > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848?keywords=#52332? > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Jan 4 20:12:06 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 21:12:06 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> Message-ID: Francis, I too try for an approach of (viral?) immanent critique. I think that there are situations where people will "get it" (or maybe "get infected by it"), but I particularly sympathize with your day-by-day worries that I'm not doing enough and that I should be taking more radical action. But I also recall the words of a mentor of mine, feminist scholar and philosopher of education Audrey Thompson, who used to point out the importance of carrying out a work on multiple levels - some more radical than others but all are necessary for change to happen (e.g., Malcolm X and MLK). Still not sure I'm convinced of that (if not now, when? if not you, who? and all that...), but it's where I'm at. The overwhelmingly white and mostly middle-class students I confront have very good hearts and are often quite interested in this project of "liberating the oppressed" (a phrasing that still makes me nervous - Perhaps because it seems overly ambitious, or perhaps because it smacks of paternalism, but for both reasons I think it is a propos for describing what my students are up to). The problem is that my students seem to think in ways that are ideologically individualistic. These students can't see beyond psychological thinking in which individuals are entirely responsible for all that they think and do. They can't see how anything beyond the individual could have much relevance to the individual, much less how it could play a constitutive role. They are entirely taken by the myth of individual will and see the task of liberation of the oppressed to be a simple task of educating the oppressed to be more willful in their efforts to succeed in an (assumedly) meritocratic system. As a result, they throw all their energies behind projects that are doomed to fail in terms of accomplishing what they want to accomplish, i.e., "helping" other people. So, for me, a pedagogy of the oppressors (which, is, in part to say, the focus of my own re-search and education) is a pedagogy that can help liberate these students from an individualistic ideology (and following Michael G, this is not to say that there is anything wrong with people thinking as individuals - the problem lies with the ideology of individualism). And yes, here is where I see the approach of CHAT to be really remarkably useful precisely AS a pedagogy of the oppressor. CHAT offers a way of appreciating the role of context in the ongoing constitution of individuals. That seems useful. Perhaps even liberating... cheers, greg p.s. One recent TED talk I came across that I find useful (particularly for those students of mine who are interested in international development, of which I have a fair number) is Sirolli's talk titled "Want to Help Someone: Shut Up and Listen": http://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_listen The talk and Sirolli's approach leave a lot to be desired, but I sincerely appreciate the sentiment "if you want to help someone, shut up and listen", and I have found this to be useful to get students to actually begin to realize that the world may be bigger (and perhaps badder) than they had previously imagined. On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 6:16 PM, FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN wrote: > Wow, this is a great thread, one I think about all the time, as one of the > oppressors. Not by choice, as I see this as a structural, or rather a > "positional" category, akin to the workings of power in terms of one's > relationship to the means of production. I can still recall Horkheimer and > Adorno's anecdote in *Dialectic of Enlightenment*, one the ways that the > songs of the Sirens went unheard by Odysseus' crew--as he had stoppered > their ears--yet remained useless to Odysseus as he was lashed to the mast. > So, I certainly agree that we need a pedagogy of the oppressors as a > complement to that of the oppressed. I always thought that was the major > effort of the Frankfurt School. > As someone who teaches secondary school pre-service teachers, I am quite > aware of my structural position as an "officer of the State." I was in the > middle of revising my syllabi for the upcoming semester when I saw this > thread emerge. The advent of the corporate reform of schooling called > Common Core poses a fundamental threat to the democratic roots of education > in the US, yet I can neither ignore it nor simply trash it. The students I > prepare must be able to address the Core if they are to have a career at > all. So, for better or worse, I find the best resistance to be the tightest > embrace of the "principles" embedded in the Core, an embrace that, I hope, > lets me transform them into a useful and useable critique of the Core > itself. So, this semester, we examine "speaking" and "writing" standards in > terms of dialect, code, and register differences. We develop lessons and > units in which high school students grapple with the reality of > "code-switching," and the choices one can make to successfully navigate > speech and writing situations defined by conflicting purposes and > relational hierarchies. > > Of course, all this is news to my students, almost all of whom are white > and middle-class, and most of whom are male. So, I approach these topics by > emphasizing that learners develop best when teaching meets them where they > are and builds on what they know. I choose texts that de-emphasize the > kinds of oppression that plays out in the lives of urban students. So, > where does someone like me fit in this mosaic? Are we "leading the > resistance from behind; or allowing ourselves to be co-opted?" My answer to > that changes at least weekly, sometimes daily. I can only say that I'm > doing what I can. > > Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Department of Teaching and Learning > College of Education > Temple University > Philadelphia, PA 19122 > > > Find out what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact > measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. > > Frederick Douglass > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > I am peeling off from the old thread to begin a new thread! > > > > > > Our inquiry hear appears to be: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > > > I suggest "a" and not "the" because there could be more than one, surely? > > > > > > For new arrivers to this thread, it commenced from this thread here: > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848 > > > > > > With its genesis here, thanks to Greg! > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848?keywords=#52332? > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From vygotsky@unm.edu Sun Jan 4 22:27:25 2015 From: vygotsky@unm.edu (Vera John-Steiner) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 23:27:25 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> Message-ID: <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu> I agree with Greg that the problem we face when confronting oppression is the ideology of individualism. In discussions about Ferguson and related events we are frequently told that police brutality is due to a few bad cops. But what we are faced with is a system of oppression that has been hidden from public view but is deeply and painfully experienced by members of many poor African-American communities. A recent book by Alice Goffman ( a sociologist as was her famous father) entitled On the Run describes her experiences in a Philadelphia Black community where she lived for six years while both an undergraduate and graduate student. I only read extensive interviews with her (waiting for the book) in which she detailed the incessant harassment and persecution of young Black men as well as the oppression of their mothers, partners etc. How are future members of the police taught and socialized to carry out these acts? I am not sure, but there is a pedagogy involved in turning these future cops into oppressors. And there are many structural reasons why in our current society we want to jail rather than create employment for young men who may have done nothing or misbehaved in ways for which young white men would experience a slap on the wrist. I do agree that a start was made by members of the Frankfurt school in trying to explore some psychological features of oppression under Nazi rule. But not much else has been done since then about the socialization that turns na?ve youth into occupying soldiers, cops or prison guards. It is a grim topic and though I thought I wanted to pursue it, I did not have Alice Goffman's courage and determination. And thus choosing avoidance I,too, am an accessory to oppression. Vera -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+vygotsky=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+vygotsky=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 9:12 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? Francis, I too try for an approach of (viral?) immanent critique. I think that there are situations where people will "get it" (or maybe "get infected by it"), but I particularly sympathize with your day-by-day worries that I'm not doing enough and that I should be taking more radical action. But I also recall the words of a mentor of mine, feminist scholar and philosopher of education Audrey Thompson, who used to point out the importance of carrying out a work on multiple levels - some more radical than others but all are necessary for change to happen (e.g., Malcolm X and MLK). Still not sure I'm convinced of that (if not now, when? if not you, who? and all that...), but it's where I'm at. The overwhelmingly white and mostly middle-class students I confront have very good hearts and are often quite interested in this project of "liberating the oppressed" (a phrasing that still makes me nervous - Perhaps because it seems overly ambitious, or perhaps because it smacks of paternalism, but for both reasons I think it is a propos for describing what my students are up to). The problem is that my students seem to think in ways that are ideologically individualistic. These students can't see beyond psychological thinking in which individuals are entirely responsible for all that they think and do. They can't see how anything beyond the individual could have much relevance to the individual, much less how it could play a constitutive role. They are entirely taken by the myth of individual will and see the task of liberation of the oppressed to be a simple task of educating the oppressed to be more willful in their efforts to succeed in an (assumedly) meritocratic system. As a result, they throw all their energies behind projects that are doomed to fail in terms of accomplishing what they want to accomplish, i.e., "helping" other people. So, for me, a pedagogy of the oppressors (which, is, in part to say, the focus of my own re-search and education) is a pedagogy that can help liberate these students from an individualistic ideology (and following Michael G, this is not to say that there is anything wrong with people thinking as individuals - the problem lies with the ideology of individualism). And yes, here is where I see the approach of CHAT to be really remarkably useful precisely AS a pedagogy of the oppressor. CHAT offers a way of appreciating the role of context in the ongoing constitution of individuals. That seems useful. Perhaps even liberating... cheers, greg p.s. One recent TED talk I came across that I find useful (particularly for those students of mine who are interested in international development, of which I have a fair number) is Sirolli's talk titled "Want to Help Someone: Shut Up and Listen": http://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_listen The talk and Sirolli's approach leave a lot to be desired, but I sincerely appreciate the sentiment "if you want to help someone, shut up and listen", and I have found this to be useful to get students to actually begin to realize that the world may be bigger (and perhaps badder) than they had previously imagined. On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 6:16 PM, FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN wrote: > Wow, this is a great thread, one I think about all the time, as one of > the oppressors. Not by choice, as I see this as a structural, or > rather a "positional" category, akin to the workings of power in terms > of one's relationship to the means of production. I can still recall > Horkheimer and Adorno's anecdote in *Dialectic of Enlightenment*, one > the ways that the songs of the Sirens went unheard by Odysseus' > crew--as he had stoppered their ears--yet remained useless to Odysseus as he was lashed to the mast. > So, I certainly agree that we need a pedagogy of the oppressors as a > complement to that of the oppressed. I always thought that was the > major effort of the Frankfurt School. > As someone who teaches secondary school pre-service teachers, I am > quite aware of my structural position as an "officer of the State." I > was in the middle of revising my syllabi for the upcoming semester > when I saw this thread emerge. The advent of the corporate reform of > schooling called Common Core poses a fundamental threat to the > democratic roots of education in the US, yet I can neither ignore it > nor simply trash it. The students I prepare must be able to address > the Core if they are to have a career at all. So, for better or worse, > I find the best resistance to be the tightest embrace of the > "principles" embedded in the Core, an embrace that, I hope, lets me > transform them into a useful and useable critique of the Core itself. > So, this semester, we examine "speaking" and "writing" standards in > terms of dialect, code, and register differences. We develop lessons > and units in which high school students grapple with the reality of > "code-switching," and the choices one can make to successfully > navigate speech and writing situations defined by conflicting purposes and relational hierarchies. > > Of course, all this is news to my students, almost all of whom are > white and middle-class, and most of whom are male. So, I approach > these topics by emphasizing that learners develop best when teaching > meets them where they are and builds on what they know. I choose texts > that de-emphasize the kinds of oppression that plays out in the lives > of urban students. So, where does someone like me fit in this mosaic? > Are we "leading the resistance from behind; or allowing ourselves to > be co-opted?" My answer to that changes at least weekly, sometimes > daily. I can only say that I'm doing what I can. > > Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Department of Teaching and Learning > College of Education > Temple University > Philadelphia, PA 19122 > > > Find out what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact > measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. > > Frederick Douglass > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > I am peeling off from the old thread to begin a new thread! > > > > > > Our inquiry hear appears to be: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > > > I suggest "a" and not "the" because there could be more than one, surely? > > > > > > For new arrivers to this thread, it commenced from this thread here: > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848 > > > > > > With its genesis here, thanks to Greg! > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848?keywords=#52332? > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Jan 5 00:17:37 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 00:17:37 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu> Message-ID: Greg, Vera, You both agree with the need to see through the prejudices of individualism as an ideology. Greg's statement: "a pedagogy of the oppressors (which, is, in part to say, the focus of my own re-search and education) is a pedagogy that can help liberate these students from an individualistic ideology (and following Michael G, this is not to say that there is anything wrong with people thinking as individuals" How deeply ingrained is this *individualistic* ideology? With the best of intentions and the desire to want to *help* others, how do students at the elite centers of learning imagine there next step after graduating. The option for most of them is to hopefully move [as individuals] after re-locating to where work is to be found. There seems to be no other options if they are to become employed. Is not this way of imagining the possible trajectory of one's future career path also *individualistic*? How many individuals are willing to imagine a future without this freedom of mobility to find their own meaningful employment. [acknowledging that many imagine the move will be to help others]. The *collectivist* answer as an alternative does not *call* many to a life of service because of the fear of loosing one's individual freedom to remain mobile. Zygmunt Bauman writes about the ideology of *liquid modernity* which has radically changed earlier modes of *solid modernity*. With these questions in mind we should look closely [and listen carefully and intently] to the expression of actual concrete models such as the creation of *third spaces* that are neither *individual* or *collectivist* but are focusing on notions of *witnessing* [bearing witness] to a hybrid *mode* that is BOTH individual AND intersubjective. The concrete details of how this *context* was structured to create a *third space* emphasizes the notion of a *space* that *holds* our dreams through the power of *witnessing*. This requires *leadership* and a transformative understanding of *living in truth* *Truth* as dialogical and multiple and *relevant* for our current moment in time. Kris says her work was guided by the dream of *cosmopolitanism* and third spaces are contributing to this *stream* of social dreaming. The *third space* is a flexible and fluid concept but is not merely individualistic nor collectivist. It is a *project* in the way Andy uses the term, which honours the *AND* and the *BOTH* of the individual AND the intersubjective AS a hybrid form. Is it possible for elite centers of learning to nurture *third spaces* or must these more radical forms develop beyond the confines of elite centers of learning? I also with Greg and Vera believe the ideology of individualism runs deep in our epoch's ideology, but I do wonder if a possible way through is to actually *live our truth* which means actually living with others within communities in our day to day activities as social dreamers. Question: How central to the *third space* as being transformative was the *immersion* for a full month in living together full time. Are there other ongoing *third spaces* where participants are committing to developing transformative *third spaces* that continue as communities of practice in more permanent arrangements? Are elite centers of learning the only places where *third spaces* can be imagined and actualized? Or is the possibility of creating what Winnicott named *holding environments* impossible to imagine from within our current ideological preconceptions of individual autonomy? Is this type of *social dreaming* mere fantasy and fiction? Do we need to be more *realistic*? The notion of *witnessing* implies a notion of *leadership*. I would suggest Kris has given us a *concrete* living example of what is possible when committed people claim a *truth* which includes BOTH the individual AND the intersubjective. Not either one or the other, but a hybrid *space* of possibilities. One month together and lives were transformed forever and new *dispositions* formed. If these models *work* how do we take the next step asking how are these models sustained over time?. The ideology of individualism makes this question seem an impossible dream. Greg, if your students, with the best of intentions, are unconsciously perpetuating a pedagogy of the oppressor, do we actually need to go beyond "knowing" to "living in relevant truth". Zygmunt Bauman would argue we will need to overcome our current dream of individual social mobility where the rich elites move freely around the planet while to be *stuck* in place seems oppressive and stagnant and deadening. Larry On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 10:27 PM, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > I agree with Greg that the problem we face when confronting oppression is > the ideology of individualism. In discussions about Ferguson and related > events we are frequently told that police brutality is due to a few bad > cops. But what we are faced with is a system of oppression that has been > hidden from public view but is deeply and painfully experienced by members > of many poor African-American communities. A recent book by Alice Goffman ( > a sociologist as was her famous father) entitled On the Run describes her > experiences in a Philadelphia Black community where she lived for six years > while both an undergraduate and graduate student. I only read extensive > interviews with her (waiting for the book) in which she detailed > the incessant harassment and persecution of young Black men as well as the > oppression of their mothers, partners etc. How are future members of the > police taught and socialized to carry out these acts? I am not sure, but > there is a pedagogy involved in turning these future cops into oppressors. > And there are many structural reasons why in our current society we want > to jail rather than create employment for young men who may have done > nothing or misbehaved in ways for which young white men would experience a > slap on the wrist. I do agree that a start was made by members of the > Frankfurt school in trying to explore some psychological features of > oppression under Nazi rule. But not much else has been done since then > about the socialization that turns na?ve youth into occupying soldiers, > cops or prison guards. It is a grim topic and though I thought I wanted to > pursue it, I did not have Alice Goffman's courage and determination. And > thus choosing avoidance I,too, am an accessory to oppression. > > Vera > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+vygotsky=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+vygotsky=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg > Thompson > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 9:12 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Francis, > I too try for an approach of (viral?) immanent critique. I think that > there are situations where people will "get it" (or maybe "get infected by > it"), but I particularly sympathize with your day-by-day worries that I'm > not doing enough and that I should be taking more radical action. But I > also recall the words of a mentor of mine, feminist scholar and philosopher > of education Audrey Thompson, who used to point out the importance of > carrying out a work on multiple levels - some more radical than others but > all are necessary for change to happen (e.g., Malcolm X and MLK). Still not > sure I'm convinced of that (if not now, when? if not you, who? and all > that...), but it's where I'm at. > > The overwhelmingly white and mostly middle-class students I confront have > very good hearts and are often quite interested in this project of > "liberating the oppressed" (a phrasing that still makes me nervous - > Perhaps because it seems overly ambitious, or perhaps because it smacks of > paternalism, but for both reasons I think it is a propos for describing > what my students are up to). The problem is that my students seem to think > in ways that are ideologically individualistic. These students can't see > beyond psychological thinking in which individuals are entirely responsible > for all that they think and do. They can't see how anything beyond the > individual could have much relevance to the individual, much less how it > could play a constitutive role. They are entirely taken by the myth of > individual will and see the task of liberation of the oppressed to be a > simple task of educating the oppressed to be more willful in their efforts > to succeed in an (assumedly) meritocratic system. As a result, they throw > all their energies behind projects that are doomed to fail in terms of > accomplishing what they want to accomplish, i.e., "helping" other people. > > So, for me, a pedagogy of the oppressors (which, is, in part to say, the > focus of my own re-search and education) is a pedagogy that can help > liberate these students from an individualistic ideology (and following > Michael G, this is not to say that there is anything wrong with people > thinking as individuals - the problem lies with the ideology of > individualism). And yes, here is where I see the approach of CHAT to be > really remarkably useful precisely AS a pedagogy of the oppressor. CHAT > offers a way of appreciating the role of context in the ongoing > constitution of individuals. That seems useful. Perhaps even liberating... > > cheers, > greg > > p.s. One recent TED talk I came across that I find useful (particularly > for those students of mine who are interested in international development, > of which I have a fair number) is Sirolli's talk titled "Want to Help > Someone: > Shut Up and Listen": > > http://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_listen > > The talk and Sirolli's approach leave a lot to be desired, but I sincerely > appreciate the sentiment "if you want to help someone, shut up and listen", > and I have found this to be useful to get students to actually begin to > realize that the world may be bigger (and perhaps badder) than they had > previously imagined. > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 6:16 PM, FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN > wrote: > > > Wow, this is a great thread, one I think about all the time, as one of > > the oppressors. Not by choice, as I see this as a structural, or > > rather a "positional" category, akin to the workings of power in terms > > of one's relationship to the means of production. I can still recall > > Horkheimer and Adorno's anecdote in *Dialectic of Enlightenment*, one > > the ways that the songs of the Sirens went unheard by Odysseus' > > crew--as he had stoppered their ears--yet remained useless to Odysseus > as he was lashed to the mast. > > So, I certainly agree that we need a pedagogy of the oppressors as a > > complement to that of the oppressed. I always thought that was the > > major effort of the Frankfurt School. > > As someone who teaches secondary school pre-service teachers, I am > > quite aware of my structural position as an "officer of the State." I > > was in the middle of revising my syllabi for the upcoming semester > > when I saw this thread emerge. The advent of the corporate reform of > > schooling called Common Core poses a fundamental threat to the > > democratic roots of education in the US, yet I can neither ignore it > > nor simply trash it. The students I prepare must be able to address > > the Core if they are to have a career at all. So, for better or worse, > > I find the best resistance to be the tightest embrace of the > > "principles" embedded in the Core, an embrace that, I hope, lets me > > transform them into a useful and useable critique of the Core itself. > > So, this semester, we examine "speaking" and "writing" standards in > > terms of dialect, code, and register differences. We develop lessons > > and units in which high school students grapple with the reality of > > "code-switching," and the choices one can make to successfully > > navigate speech and writing situations defined by conflicting purposes > and relational hierarchies. > > > > Of course, all this is news to my students, almost all of whom are > > white and middle-class, and most of whom are male. So, I approach > > these topics by emphasizing that learners develop best when teaching > > meets them where they are and builds on what they know. I choose texts > > that de-emphasize the kinds of oppression that plays out in the lives > > of urban students. So, where does someone like me fit in this mosaic? > > Are we "leading the resistance from behind; or allowing ourselves to > > be co-opted?" My answer to that changes at least weekly, sometimes > > daily. I can only say that I'm doing what I can. > > > > Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor > > Department of Teaching and Learning > > College of Education > > Temple University > > Philadelphia, PA 19122 > > > > > > Find out what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact > > measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. > > > > Frederick Douglass > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > I am peeling off from the old thread to begin a new thread! > > > > > > > > > Our inquiry hear appears to be: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > > > > > > I suggest "a" and not "the" because there could be more than one, > surely? > > > > > > > > > For new arrivers to this thread, it commenced from this thread here: > > > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848 > > > > > > > > > With its genesis here, thanks to Greg! > > > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848?keywords=#52332? > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > From smago@uga.edu Mon Jan 5 03:13:41 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 11:13:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <1420413078297.87670@unm.edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, <1420413078297.87670@unm.edu> Message-ID: " I even wonder if the narrative of "Capitalism/Communism" is also a false construct, that it too is "a" narrative of many layered narratives of oppression." The term "third world" refers to economies that are neither capitalist nor communist (worlds 1 and 2). There's a lot out there beyond the conventional binaries, here and elsewhere. p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 6:11 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? Hi Greg and others! Please accept my apology for this very long post, but I trust it will be worth much to you, as I believe there is some Good Thinking in it. I hope you feel as I do, but the only way to know of course is for you to read it! :) I did at first understand your suggestion of Pedagogy of the Oppressors to be how to teach the oppressors not to be oppressors. I believe that we all agree that this would be the end game we all seek, unless one of course wants to be an oppressor and believes that, say, Kublai Khan's society is a perfect model for us. [Meh!] However, I think perhaps a jump that both Helena and I made intuitively (if I am not being presumptuous of Helena's jumping as being like my jumping) is that in order to get the a point of an education that you suggest, Greg, we must first look at how the Oppressors are conditioned to be Oppressors. What is that narrative? It is my sense that an examination of that is mandatory, if not only to prevent replications, which seems easy to do when we are hypnotized by the narrative as being "the" rather than "a" narrative, so that we can consciously pass into the kind of pedagogy that you want to see happen, which is to delegitimize oppression period, and to make a move to somewhere else enlightened and liberated. I don't think we can really get to Somewhere Else until we know Where is Here. There are many many pedagogies to oppress and they are not only in schools. We see it in the construction of race, in class, we see it in the military, in politics, we see it in the factory floor, in prisons, in families, on television and in movies, in advertising and other media, like pop music. It is frightening when one observes "a" pedagogy over "the" pedagogy, how many there are. To look at these "scientifically" we would have to observe each of these environments and see what it is that they have in common. How is oppression expressed? Is the oppression that we think we will find the actual oppression that is expressed? You see, in order to find the solution to oppression we must look at the problem as it is, as we find it. I believe that the solution is inherent in the problem, as tends to be the case of most problems. So in this case 4+7=10, that is, we must start from where we are before we can fully understand that 4+7=11. I'd also like to offer that just as the "East/West" way of discussing oppression fails, so does discussing oppression in terms of "individual/collective," which I sense is what Michael was referencing. Individualism is not bad as long as its practice isn't at the expense of other individuals. Collectivism is not bad, as long as its practice isn't at the expense of other collectives. This is why I sense it may not offer a fruitful analysis. But I do admit is it "a" narrative that we have seen replicated in many ways "east" and "west," "north" and "south." I even wonder if the narrative of "Capitalism/Communism" is also a false construct, that it too is "a" narrative of many layered narratives of oppression. I don't think that what we are learning here is that oppressors need to be taught how not to oppress. What we are learning here is the PEDAGOGY that is taught to people SO THAT they become OPPRESSORS. And like you say, anyone can be oppressed and anyone can be oppressors, and these roles can be turned on and off depending upon the environments that we find ourselves. In this sense, in the end, it is learning how to eliminate a language of oppression so that we can learn a language of peace, of gratitude, of love, of community, of kindness, of caring, and to do so without embarrassment or doubt. I think this is what Larry is suggesting with "social dreaming," but I may be wrong about that. Rather than dream, let's just be in The Here, Right Now and speak freely of what is here and what is missing, and what we want in terms of liberation. Let's not think of elephants in terms of not-elephants, let's think of liberation in terms of liberation. Let's orient to what we want in terms of what we want? Perhaps like Vygotsky, we would have to begin and look at the genesis of oppression, how does it manifest? Is it really BECAUSE of race? is it really BECAUSE of class? I hope people will be patient while I make this suggestion. IF race is the CAUSE of oppression, then it means ALL forms of oppression are explained by race. This simply isn't the case. Same for class, etc. Like you, I believe that we are naturally good, and that the habits of violence and despair are taught to us. We know this because of the innocence of children, and all the art that memorializes the loss of our innocence (like the fall from Eden, etc). THAT we can appreciate the laughter of children MEANS this laughter is within us, otherwise we would not recognize its joy. This is why I look to feeling, sense, affect, emotion, and similar intuitive forms of understanding as our guiding star. It is this understanding of affect that is missing from the language of oppression. It has been corralled away from other forms of logic and intellectual pursuit, as if these are languages of machines. We must look to what the world would look like if Descartes DID NOT NEED to separate mind from body because of threat of persecution of the Church of his day. This is not to say that Descartes was the first dualist, but he is perhaps Our First Dualist who has a particularly long shadow into our lives today, and so it offers us a possible entrance of how to discuss this separation. Of course I am not suggesting a return to a partnership of a monarchy and a theocracy, but instead to consider what would the development of science have been if the mind and the body remained united in our minds and our bodies? Would we have had to wait until Freud to begin examining the mind? I don't believe so. I could argue that the Marquis De Sade was at the threshold of psychology when he wrote 120 Days of Sodom from his cell in the Bastille at the eve of the French Revolution. But this may be seen as too radical a concept for people; I do not mean to offer cruelty as our model, but to suggest that he was examining What Is Cruelty as expressed in the mind IF we were to see it expressed to us in MATERIAL, which would be as bodies sensing pain and pleasure. I think in that kind of world where the mind and body are seen as united and studied in that way, there might be less oppressed people and less people desiring to oppress others. I feel that this separation of mind and body is what de Sade was attempting to expose (in high contrast) and I feel likewise (although the other side of the coin) what Vygotsky was doing in his re-search for a unified psychology, was through a unification mind and body. Otherwise, why study children? The study of children is the site of the whole-human, before the division from our own innocence, "before Descartes." Perhaps the PEDAGOGY that we aspire to create is to show the oppressors how oppressive it is to be an oppressor and how unsustainable a project it is for the planet that we find ourselves standing upon. Thanks for reading this! Kind regards, Annalisa From smago@uga.edu Mon Jan 5 03:16:05 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 11:16:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> Message-ID: Surely there's more to world society than the binary of oppressed and oppressors, usually presented as mutually exclusive categories? -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 8:16 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? Wow, this is a great thread, one I think about all the time, as one of the oppressors. Not by choice, as I see this as a structural, or rather a "positional" category, akin to the workings of power in terms of one's relationship to the means of production. I can still recall Horkheimer and Adorno's anecdote in *Dialectic of Enlightenment*, one the ways that the songs of the Sirens went unheard by Odysseus' crew--as he had stoppered their ears--yet remained useless to Odysseus as he was lashed to the mast. So, I certainly agree that we need a pedagogy of the oppressors as a complement to that of the oppressed. I always thought that was the major effort of the Frankfurt School. As someone who teaches secondary school pre-service teachers, I am quite aware of my structural position as an "officer of the State." I was in the middle of revising my syllabi for the upcoming semester when I saw this thread emerge. The advent of the corporate reform of schooling called Common Core poses a fundamental threat to the democratic roots of education in the US, yet I can neither ignore it nor simply trash it. The students I prepare must be able to address the Core if they are to have a career at all. So, for better or worse, I find the best resistance to be the tightest embrace of the "principles" embedded in the Core, an embrace that, I hope, lets me transform them into a useful and useable critique of the Core itself. So, this semester, we examine "speaking" and "writing" standards in terms of dialect, code, and register differences. We develop lessons and units in which high school students grapple with the reality of "code-switching," and the choices one can make to successfully navigate speech and writing situations defined by conflicting purposes and relational hierarchies. Of course, all this is news to my students, almost all of whom are white and middle-class, and most of whom are male. So, I approach these topics by emphasizing that learners develop best when teaching meets them where they are and builds on what they know. I choose texts that de-emphasize the kinds of oppression that plays out in the lives of urban students. So, where does someone like me fit in this mosaic? Are we "leading the resistance from behind; or allowing ourselves to be co-opted?" My answer to that changes at least weekly, sometimes daily. I can only say that I'm doing what I can. Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. Associate Professor Department of Teaching and Learning College of Education Temple University Philadelphia, PA 19122 Find out what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. Frederick Douglass On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi, > > > I am peeling off from the old thread to begin a new thread! > > > Our inquiry hear appears to be: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > I suggest "a" and not "the" because there could be more than one, surely? > > > For new arrivers to this thread, it commenced from this thread here: > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848 > > > With its genesis here, thanks to Greg! > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848?keywords=#52332? > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Jan 5 07:50:36 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 07:50:36 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> Message-ID: Returning to Raymond Williams and his notion of "structures of feeling" that are factual and shared *sense* that is felt. The comments from Greg and others are asking if they are *unknowingly* participating in pedagogies of oppressor(s) I read as an ethical question, in the spirit of Levinas. His exploration asking "am I *over* others, or am I *equal* to others* or must I *answer the face of the other* who will not release me from my obligation to the other. Why is Levinas read today when his writings were unread for many years. Is it because we are *involved* in a *structure of feeling* that we sense as ambivalence. The terms *oppressors* is indicating a possible *felt* structure that is a social phenomena experienced by some in positions of power and that feeling *calls* them to action prior to clear articulation of why in language. On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 3:16 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Surely there's more to world society than the binary of oppressed and > oppressors, usually presented as mutually exclusive categories? > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 8:16 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Wow, this is a great thread, one I think about all the time, as one of the > oppressors. Not by choice, as I see this as a structural, or rather a > "positional" category, akin to the workings of power in terms of one's > relationship to the means of production. I can still recall Horkheimer and > Adorno's anecdote in *Dialectic of Enlightenment*, one the ways that the > songs of the Sirens went unheard by Odysseus' crew--as he had stoppered > their ears--yet remained useless to Odysseus as he was lashed to the mast. > So, I certainly agree that we need a pedagogy of the oppressors as a > complement to that of the oppressed. I always thought that was the major > effort of the Frankfurt School. > As someone who teaches secondary school pre-service teachers, I am quite > aware of my structural position as an "officer of the State." I was in the > middle of revising my syllabi for the upcoming semester when I saw this > thread emerge. The advent of the corporate reform of schooling called > Common Core poses a fundamental threat to the democratic roots of education > in the US, yet I can neither ignore it nor simply trash it. The students I > prepare must be able to address the Core if they are to have a career at > all. So, for better or worse, I find the best resistance to be the tightest > embrace of the "principles" embedded in the Core, an embrace that, I hope, > lets me transform them into a useful and useable critique of the Core > itself. So, this semester, we examine "speaking" and "writing" standards in > terms of dialect, code, and register differences. We develop lessons and > units in which high school students grapple with the reality of > "code-switching," and the choices one can make to successfully navigate > speech and writing situations defined by conflicting purposes and > relational hierarchies. > > Of course, all this is news to my students, almost all of whom are white > and middle-class, and most of whom are male. So, I approach these topics by > emphasizing that learners develop best when teaching meets them where they > are and builds on what they know. I choose texts that de-emphasize the > kinds of oppression that plays out in the lives of urban students. So, > where does someone like me fit in this mosaic? Are we "leading the > resistance from behind; or allowing ourselves to be co-opted?" My answer to > that changes at least weekly, sometimes daily. I can only say that I'm > doing what I can. > > Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Department of Teaching and Learning > College of Education > Temple University > Philadelphia, PA 19122 > > > Find out what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact > measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. > > Frederick Douglass > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > I am peeling off from the old thread to begin a new thread! > > > > > > Our inquiry hear appears to be: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > > > I suggest "a" and not "the" because there could be more than one, surely? > > > > > > For new arrivers to this thread, it commenced from this thread here: > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848 > > > > > > With its genesis here, thanks to Greg! > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848?keywords=#52332? > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Mon Jan 5 10:17:27 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 12:17:27 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , Message-ID: Message from Francine: Peter's comment "that surely there's more to world society than the binary of oppressed and oppressors, usually presented as mutually exclusive categories" warrants being be a header for a new thread. There is a binary list of oppressors emerging from XMCA e-mails (that ought to make us stop and think): (1) the police as a systemic oppressor of black males versus black males who are the oppressed (2) graduates of elite universities versus those who are not admitted to, and thus do not graduate, from elite universities [with the exception of police officers who become oppressors through the policing system?] This amounts to stigmatizing certain segments of the population and making them the scapegoats for any problems that the 'other' has. The alternative is to ask (Annalisa says we start by asking insightful questions): (1) Are their systemic elements in policing that lead to abuse of power and need to be addressed in police training? Zimbardo's Stanford Prison study is a good starting point. (2) Are there dysfunctional and criminalizing elements in society that lead some black males to choose violence? How can these dysfunctional and criminalizing elements be addressed? Fatherless boys prone to gang recruitment, lack of jobs, etc. (3) Is there something systemic in elite institutions that makes graduates insensitive to the other and exploitive of others? Should they be required to do service learning while students and continue community service through the alumni associations? (4) Among all those who do not attend elite institutions, are there choices that they made that have put them in a position of extreme vulnerability to exploitation? There are so many different categories of people here. Some find other ways to gain power in society such as sport superstars, superstar entertainers, entrepreneurs, or create a niche that they can function in and maintain some self-efficacy. Just asking questions . . . . > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 07:50:36 -0800 > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Returning to Raymond Williams and his notion of "structures of feeling" > that are factual and shared *sense* that is felt. The comments from Greg > and others are asking if they are *unknowingly* participating in pedagogies > of oppressor(s) I read as an ethical question, in the spirit of Levinas. > His exploration asking > "am I *over* others, or am I *equal* to others* or must I *answer the face > of the other* who will not release me from my obligation to the other. > > Why is Levinas read today when his writings were unread for many years. Is > it because we are *involved* in a *structure of feeling* that we sense as > ambivalence. > > The terms *oppressors* is indicating a possible *felt* structure that is a > social phenomena experienced by some in positions of power and that feeling > *calls* them to action prior to clear articulation of why in language. > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 3:16 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > Surely there's more to world society than the binary of oppressed and > > oppressors, usually presented as mutually exclusive categories? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN > > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 8:16 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > Wow, this is a great thread, one I think about all the time, as one of the > > oppressors. Not by choice, as I see this as a structural, or rather a > > "positional" category, akin to the workings of power in terms of one's > > relationship to the means of production. I can still recall Horkheimer and > > Adorno's anecdote in *Dialectic of Enlightenment*, one the ways that the > > songs of the Sirens went unheard by Odysseus' crew--as he had stoppered > > their ears--yet remained useless to Odysseus as he was lashed to the mast. > > So, I certainly agree that we need a pedagogy of the oppressors as a > > complement to that of the oppressed. I always thought that was the major > > effort of the Frankfurt School. > > As someone who teaches secondary school pre-service teachers, I am quite > > aware of my structural position as an "officer of the State." I was in the > > middle of revising my syllabi for the upcoming semester when I saw this > > thread emerge. The advent of the corporate reform of schooling called > > Common Core poses a fundamental threat to the democratic roots of education > > in the US, yet I can neither ignore it nor simply trash it. The students I > > prepare must be able to address the Core if they are to have a career at > > all. So, for better or worse, I find the best resistance to be the tightest > > embrace of the "principles" embedded in the Core, an embrace that, I hope, > > lets me transform them into a useful and useable critique of the Core > > itself. So, this semester, we examine "speaking" and "writing" standards in > > terms of dialect, code, and register differences. We develop lessons and > > units in which high school students grapple with the reality of > > "code-switching," and the choices one can make to successfully navigate > > speech and writing situations defined by conflicting purposes and > > relational hierarchies. > > > > Of course, all this is news to my students, almost all of whom are white > > and middle-class, and most of whom are male. So, I approach these topics by > > emphasizing that learners develop best when teaching meets them where they > > are and builds on what they know. I choose texts that de-emphasize the > > kinds of oppression that plays out in the lives of urban students. So, > > where does someone like me fit in this mosaic? Are we "leading the > > resistance from behind; or allowing ourselves to be co-opted?" My answer to > > that changes at least weekly, sometimes daily. I can only say that I'm > > doing what I can. > > > > Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor > > Department of Teaching and Learning > > College of Education > > Temple University > > Philadelphia, PA 19122 > > > > > > Find out what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact > > measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. > > > > Frederick Douglass > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > I am peeling off from the old thread to begin a new thread! > > > > > > > > > Our inquiry hear appears to be: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > > > > > > I suggest "a" and not "the" because there could be more than one, surely? > > > > > > > > > For new arrivers to this thread, it commenced from this thread here: > > > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848 > > > > > > > > > With its genesis here, thanks to Greg! > > > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848?keywords=#52332? > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Jan 5 11:16:36 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 09:16:36 -1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> Message-ID: Francine, If we start a new thread could we put our deeply embedded brief and faith in hyper individualism, which may run through all your examples. The notion that we each individually must make our own choices. I am suggesting third spaces as an example of honouring our reality as subjective persons, but WITHIN intersubjective contexts On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 8:17 AM, larry smolucha wrote: > Message from Francine: > > Peter's comment "that surely there's more to world society than the > binary of > oppressed and oppressors, usually presented as mutually exclusive > categories" > warrants being be a header for a new thread. > > There is a binary list of oppressors emerging from XMCA e-mails (that > ought to make > us stop and think): > > (1) the police as a systemic oppressor of black males versus black males > who are > the oppressed > > (2) graduates of elite universities versus those who are not admitted to, > and thus do not graduate, from elite universities [with the exception of > police officers > who become oppressors through the policing system?] > > This amounts to stigmatizing certain segments of the population and making > them the scapegoats for any problems that the 'other' has. The > alternative is to > ask (Annalisa says we start by asking insightful questions): > > (1) Are their systemic elements in policing that lead to abuse of power > and need > to be addressed in police training? Zimbardo's Stanford Prison study is a > good starting > point. > > (2) Are there dysfunctional and criminalizing elements in society that > lead some > black males to choose violence? How can these dysfunctional and > criminalizing > elements be addressed? Fatherless boys prone to gang recruitment, lack of > jobs, etc. > > (3) Is there something systemic in elite institutions that makes graduates > insensitive > to the other and exploitive of others? Should they be required to do > service learning > while students and continue community service through the alumni > associations? > > (4) Among all those who do not attend elite institutions, are there > choices that they > made that have put them in a position of extreme vulnerability to > exploitation? > There are so many different categories of people here. Some find other > ways to gain > power in society such as sport superstars, superstar entertainers, > entrepreneurs, or > create a niche that they can function in and maintain some self-efficacy. > > > Just asking questions . . . . > > > > > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 07:50:36 -0800 > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > Returning to Raymond Williams and his notion of "structures of feeling" > > that are factual and shared *sense* that is felt. The comments from Greg > > and others are asking if they are *unknowingly* participating in > pedagogies > > of oppressor(s) I read as an ethical question, in the spirit of Levinas. > > His exploration asking > > "am I *over* others, or am I *equal* to others* or must I *answer the > face > > of the other* who will not release me from my obligation to the other. > > > > Why is Levinas read today when his writings were unread for many years. > Is > > it because we are *involved* in a *structure of feeling* that we sense as > > ambivalence. > > > > The terms *oppressors* is indicating a possible *felt* structure that is > a > > social phenomena experienced by some in positions of power and that > feeling > > *calls* them to action prior to clear articulation of why in language. > > > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 3:16 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > > > Surely there's more to world society than the binary of oppressed and > > > oppressors, usually presented as mutually exclusive categories? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN > > > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 8:16 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > > > Wow, this is a great thread, one I think about all the time, as one of > the > > > oppressors. Not by choice, as I see this as a structural, or rather a > > > "positional" category, akin to the workings of power in terms of one's > > > relationship to the means of production. I can still recall Horkheimer > and > > > Adorno's anecdote in *Dialectic of Enlightenment*, one the ways that > the > > > songs of the Sirens went unheard by Odysseus' crew--as he had stoppered > > > their ears--yet remained useless to Odysseus as he was lashed to the > mast. > > > So, I certainly agree that we need a pedagogy of the oppressors as a > > > complement to that of the oppressed. I always thought that was the > major > > > effort of the Frankfurt School. > > > As someone who teaches secondary school pre-service teachers, I am > quite > > > aware of my structural position as an "officer of the State." I was in > the > > > middle of revising my syllabi for the upcoming semester when I saw this > > > thread emerge. The advent of the corporate reform of schooling called > > > Common Core poses a fundamental threat to the democratic roots of > education > > > in the US, yet I can neither ignore it nor simply trash it. The > students I > > > prepare must be able to address the Core if they are to have a career > at > > > all. So, for better or worse, I find the best resistance to be the > tightest > > > embrace of the "principles" embedded in the Core, an embrace that, I > hope, > > > lets me transform them into a useful and useable critique of the Core > > > itself. So, this semester, we examine "speaking" and "writing" > standards in > > > terms of dialect, code, and register differences. We develop lessons > and > > > units in which high school students grapple with the reality of > > > "code-switching," and the choices one can make to successfully navigate > > > speech and writing situations defined by conflicting purposes and > > > relational hierarchies. > > > > > > Of course, all this is news to my students, almost all of whom are > white > > > and middle-class, and most of whom are male. So, I approach these > topics by > > > emphasizing that learners develop best when teaching meets them where > they > > > are and builds on what they know. I choose texts that de-emphasize the > > > kinds of oppression that plays out in the lives of urban students. So, > > > where does someone like me fit in this mosaic? Are we "leading the > > > resistance from behind; or allowing ourselves to be co-opted?" My > answer to > > > that changes at least weekly, sometimes daily. I can only say that I'm > > > doing what I can. > > > > > > Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. > > > Associate Professor > > > Department of Teaching and Learning > > > College of Education > > > Temple University > > > Philadelphia, PA 19122 > > > > > > > > > Find out what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact > > > measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. > > > > > > Frederick Douglass > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > I am peeling off from the old thread to begin a new thread! > > > > > > > > > > > > Our inquiry hear appears to be: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest "a" and not "the" because there could be more than one, > surely? > > > > > > > > > > > > For new arrivers to this thread, it commenced from this thread here: > > > > > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848 > > > > > > > > > > > > With its genesis here, thanks to Greg! > > > > > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848?keywords=#52332? > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jan 5 15:10:36 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 23:10:36 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , , Message-ID: <1420499435703.73468@unm.edu> Hello! In response to Peter's comments about the binary, it made me pause. I don't mean to make a joke of this, but can one be an oppressor without oppressing another? Can one be oppressed without an oppressor? Doesn't an oppressor imply an other being oppressed? I could oppress my pillow at night without realizing it, but somehow I don't think it minds. If I may ask some questions in light of Francine's, these would be: Why does an oppressor oppress in the first place? Like all activity, there must be a motivation and a goal in mind. Is there something in common to Francine's questions that point to a basic cause? I'd offer that "difference" is an assumption made prior to any motivation. Also known as "otherness." Otherness is likely common to both oppressors and oppressed, but they reflect otherness onto the opposite side. In cases where there is otherness and no oppression, compared to where there is otherness and oppression, I'd have to say another factor that creates tension in the latter scenario is fear. More specifically, fear of the other. Where there is no fear of the other, there is tolerance and possibly understanding. So it seems to me that some factors absent in the dance of oppression would be tolerance and understanding, and it is highly likely there is an abundance of fear. Over a longstanding period of suffering fear of the other, this likely develops into hatred, and hatred is what likely creates the unfortunate setting for violence and despair. However in a space of equals, two parties who see one another as the other doesn't necessarily motivate oppression. It could be just indifference or possibly appreciation. So it is likely what brings in oppression as a distinct move, after these precursors are established, would be vulnerability and an imbalance of power. In the case of Fergusen, the oppression did not break out overnight. It may be that the police are explaining the issue as arising from "bad apples" but does anyone really believe this? Oppression by its nature is systemic. I don't think we consider acts of oppression to be something done incidentally. If they were, perhaps there would be no reason to call it oppression. Maybe that is what bullying or rudeness is. In other words, oppression cannot be individualistic. It must be done collectively. I cannot imagine being a police officer without having to deal with ongoing fear, intolerance, violence, and despair. I'm not attempting to elicit sympathy for police officers, but without excellent training, wouldn't the most resilient and well-meaning person hoping to keep the peace take a false step from time to time? And yet, what we see is something different. It is a culture that encourages unity in the ranks by dehumanizing the other in order to legitimize oppressive behavior onto the other. I feel that it wasn't Michael Brown's blackness that killed him, but Darren Wilson's intense fear and hatred of the other that was previously conjured by a collective act wrongly utilized to create unity in the ranks with other police officers, and courtrooms, and communities. It was all a head job. In the case of elitism, it is a little different, but there are certainly commonalities. There is perhaps less a culture of fear, and more a culture of entitlement. I wonder if there is also a tribal communion that "you lived through the ritual of university as I did, and so you and I are family. That other person over there did not go through the ritual as we did, and so that other is not-family." Family is about taking care of one another, which means securing resources to share, right? In the case of people who are better educated, that would indicate privilege in the sense of being more knowledgeable, though we know that isn't always the case. There is also the political aspect of knowing others of the family and that the reason something like Facebook took off is because of "look who I know." It's all about exploiting one another's rolodexes. Networking doesn't only happen among elites, but something about this particular kind of networking seems to revolve around halls of power, which secures the best resources for the family. Also, it means maintaining the status quo so that these more hallowed forms of oppression are intact for the next generation. Another factor I see in considering the two forms of oppression that Francine has called to our attention is the matter of distancing. Oppression cannot occur without distancing. Usually that distancing is about justifying an oppressive move just before or after it has taken place, as in "the other deserved it." As if blaming the victim is an act of courage, not cowardice. Or "If I didn't do it first, the other would do it to me," which is in synch with "You are either a hammer or a nail," reasoning. What boggles my mind is that the reasoning of hammers and nail binaries, is that nails don't remain nailed, like inanimate objects. The other is in community with other others. And where there is violence involved there is hurt, and where there is hurt involved there will be fear and hatred and also enmity. Enmity is not created nor dislocated overnight. Why anyone would want to create an enemy is not by any means the sign of intelligence, because even if one is the victor in this round of violence, from that point on one must always look over one's shoulder for those in search of revenge and retribution against the victor. There must always be vigilance, which feeds into the systemic aspect of oppression. Control is legitimized because "Now they will come after us." There can never be peace in this circumstance, and it is a never-ending wheel of suffering. Thanks for letting me think out loud. Kind regards, Annalisa From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Mon Jan 5 15:33:20 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 17:33:20 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , , , Message-ID: Message from Francine: What I am saying is that each individual does have to make his/her own choices. Surrendering self-responsibility to the will of the group is what creates dangerous oppressive 'group think' and mob violence. Yes, we individually must make our own choices - but that does not exclude choosing to be part of a group decision making process. This is not just an ideological position, it is the neurological function of the prefrontal cortex . The prefrontal cortex does have to go through a process of neurological development during child development in order to exercise its function of consciously directing behavior, emotions, and thinking. This is Luria's pioneering research that now documents the neurological development accompanying the development of higher mental functions (Vygotsky). Everyone has their own prefrontal cortex - it is either functioning or it is not. Brain imaging technology is already documenting the absence of precortical activity accompanying disorders such as schizophrenia and ADDH. From infancy through childhood through adolescence, brain imagining technology documents increases in prefrontal activity. The impulsiveness of adolescents is attributed to the prefrontal not be fully developed yet. Alcohol and drugs such as depressants, marijuana and khat inhibit prefrontal cortical functioning thus loosening inhibitions and producing a stupor. The impaired decision making process associated with these drugs also makes people more suggestable. > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 09:16:36 -1000 > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Francine, > If we start a new thread could we put our deeply embedded brief and faith > in hyper individualism, which may run through all your examples. The notion > that we each individually must make our own choices. I am suggesting third > spaces as an example of honouring our reality as subjective persons, but > WITHIN intersubjective contexts > > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 8:17 AM, larry smolucha > wrote: > > > Message from Francine: > > > > Peter's comment "that surely there's more to world society than the > > binary of > > oppressed and oppressors, usually presented as mutually exclusive > > categories" > > warrants being be a header for a new thread. > > > > There is a binary list of oppressors emerging from XMCA e-mails (that > > ought to make > > us stop and think): > > > > (1) the police as a systemic oppressor of black males versus black males > > who are > > the oppressed > > > > (2) graduates of elite universities versus those who are not admitted to, > > and thus do not graduate, from elite universities [with the exception of > > police officers > > who become oppressors through the policing system?] > > > > This amounts to stigmatizing certain segments of the population and making > > them the scapegoats for any problems that the 'other' has. The > > alternative is to > > ask (Annalisa says we start by asking insightful questions): > > > > (1) Are their systemic elements in policing that lead to abuse of power > > and need > > to be addressed in police training? Zimbardo's Stanford Prison study is a > > good starting > > point. > > > > (2) Are there dysfunctional and criminalizing elements in society that > > lead some > > black males to choose violence? How can these dysfunctional and > > criminalizing > > elements be addressed? Fatherless boys prone to gang recruitment, lack of > > jobs, etc. > > > > (3) Is there something systemic in elite institutions that makes graduates > > insensitive > > to the other and exploitive of others? Should they be required to do > > service learning > > while students and continue community service through the alumni > > associations? > > > > (4) Among all those who do not attend elite institutions, are there > > choices that they > > made that have put them in a position of extreme vulnerability to > > exploitation? > > There are so many different categories of people here. Some find other > > ways to gain > > power in society such as sport superstars, superstar entertainers, > > entrepreneurs, or > > create a niche that they can function in and maintain some self-efficacy. > > > > > > Just asking questions . . . . > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 07:50:36 -0800 > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > > > Returning to Raymond Williams and his notion of "structures of feeling" > > > that are factual and shared *sense* that is felt. The comments from Greg > > > and others are asking if they are *unknowingly* participating in > > pedagogies > > > of oppressor(s) I read as an ethical question, in the spirit of Levinas. > > > His exploration asking > > > "am I *over* others, or am I *equal* to others* or must I *answer the > > face > > > of the other* who will not release me from my obligation to the other. > > > > > > Why is Levinas read today when his writings were unread for many years. > > Is > > > it because we are *involved* in a *structure of feeling* that we sense as > > > ambivalence. > > > > > > The terms *oppressors* is indicating a possible *felt* structure that is > > a > > > social phenomena experienced by some in positions of power and that > > feeling > > > *calls* them to action prior to clear articulation of why in language. > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 3:16 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > > > > > Surely there's more to world society than the binary of oppressed and > > > > oppressors, usually presented as mutually exclusive categories? > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 8:16 PM > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > > > > > Wow, this is a great thread, one I think about all the time, as one of > > the > > > > oppressors. Not by choice, as I see this as a structural, or rather a > > > > "positional" category, akin to the workings of power in terms of one's > > > > relationship to the means of production. I can still recall Horkheimer > > and > > > > Adorno's anecdote in *Dialectic of Enlightenment*, one the ways that > > the > > > > songs of the Sirens went unheard by Odysseus' crew--as he had stoppered > > > > their ears--yet remained useless to Odysseus as he was lashed to the > > mast. > > > > So, I certainly agree that we need a pedagogy of the oppressors as a > > > > complement to that of the oppressed. I always thought that was the > > major > > > > effort of the Frankfurt School. > > > > As someone who teaches secondary school pre-service teachers, I am > > quite > > > > aware of my structural position as an "officer of the State." I was in > > the > > > > middle of revising my syllabi for the upcoming semester when I saw this > > > > thread emerge. The advent of the corporate reform of schooling called > > > > Common Core poses a fundamental threat to the democratic roots of > > education > > > > in the US, yet I can neither ignore it nor simply trash it. The > > students I > > > > prepare must be able to address the Core if they are to have a career > > at > > > > all. So, for better or worse, I find the best resistance to be the > > tightest > > > > embrace of the "principles" embedded in the Core, an embrace that, I > > hope, > > > > lets me transform them into a useful and useable critique of the Core > > > > itself. So, this semester, we examine "speaking" and "writing" > > standards in > > > > terms of dialect, code, and register differences. We develop lessons > > and > > > > units in which high school students grapple with the reality of > > > > "code-switching," and the choices one can make to successfully navigate > > > > speech and writing situations defined by conflicting purposes and > > > > relational hierarchies. > > > > > > > > Of course, all this is news to my students, almost all of whom are > > white > > > > and middle-class, and most of whom are male. So, I approach these > > topics by > > > > emphasizing that learners develop best when teaching meets them where > > they > > > > are and builds on what they know. I choose texts that de-emphasize the > > > > kinds of oppression that plays out in the lives of urban students. So, > > > > where does someone like me fit in this mosaic? Are we "leading the > > > > resistance from behind; or allowing ourselves to be co-opted?" My > > answer to > > > > that changes at least weekly, sometimes daily. I can only say that I'm > > > > doing what I can. > > > > > > > > Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. > > > > Associate Professor > > > > Department of Teaching and Learning > > > > College of Education > > > > Temple University > > > > Philadelphia, PA 19122 > > > > > > > > > > > > Find out what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact > > > > measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. > > > > > > > > Frederick Douglass > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am peeling off from the old thread to begin a new thread! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our inquiry hear appears to be: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest "a" and not "the" because there could be more than one, > > surely? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For new arrivers to this thread, it commenced from this thread here: > > > > > > > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With its genesis here, thanks to Greg! > > > > > > > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848?keywords=#52332? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jan 5 15:44:43 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 23:44:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> , Message-ID: <1420501483459.21608@unm.edu> Larry and others, I am interested in "structures of feeling." Would you recommend anything in particular by Williams? I think I am with you (if this is what you are saying) that a vocabulary of sensing and feeling are important and frequently overlooked or swept under the carpet as if feeling were proof of weakness and not of humanity. Also please recommend any reading by Levinas? Thank you for your additions to the soup. Kind regards, Annalisa From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Mon Jan 5 16:00:27 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 18:00:27 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <1420499435703.73468@unm.edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , , , , , , , <1420499435703.73468@unm.edu> Message-ID: Message from Francine: Annalisa, I thought that the point Peter was making is that the 'oppressor' and 'oppressed' categories are not mutually exclusive. Someone can be both. I agree that in cycles of violence, it becomes difficult to determine who is oppressing whom. And when two guys get into a fight, expect it to quickly escalate (is it testosterone?) - that's why you don't start punching a man with a gun. > From: annalisa@unm.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 23:10:36 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Hello! > > In response to Peter's comments about the binary, it made me pause. I don't mean to make a joke of this, but can one be an oppressor without oppressing another? Can one be oppressed without an oppressor? Doesn't an oppressor imply an other being oppressed? > > I could oppress my pillow at night without realizing it, but somehow I don't think it minds. > > If I may ask some questions in light of Francine's, these would be: > > Why does an oppressor oppress in the first place? Like all activity, there must be a motivation and a goal in mind. > > Is there something in common to Francine's questions that point to a basic cause? > > I'd offer that "difference" is an assumption made prior to any motivation. Also known as "otherness." Otherness is likely common to both oppressors and oppressed, but they reflect otherness onto the opposite side. > > In cases where there is otherness and no oppression, compared to where there is otherness and oppression, I'd have to say another factor that creates tension in the latter scenario is fear. More specifically, fear of the other. Where there is no fear of the other, there is tolerance and possibly understanding. > > So it seems to me that some factors absent in the dance of oppression would be tolerance and understanding, and it is highly likely there is an abundance of fear. > > Over a longstanding period of suffering fear of the other, this likely develops into hatred, and hatred is what likely creates the unfortunate setting for violence and despair. > > However in a space of equals, two parties who see one another as the other doesn't necessarily motivate oppression. It could be just indifference or possibly appreciation. > > So it is likely what brings in oppression as a distinct move, after these precursors are established, would be vulnerability and an imbalance of power. > > In the case of Fergusen, the oppression did not break out overnight. It may be that the police are explaining the issue as arising from "bad apples" but does anyone really believe this? Oppression by its nature is systemic. I don't think we consider acts of oppression to be something done incidentally. If they were, perhaps there would be no reason to call it oppression. Maybe that is what bullying or rudeness is. > > In other words, oppression cannot be individualistic. It must be done collectively. > > I cannot imagine being a police officer without having to deal with ongoing fear, intolerance, violence, and despair. I'm not attempting to elicit sympathy for police officers, but without excellent training, wouldn't the most resilient and well-meaning person hoping to keep the peace take a false step from time to time? And yet, what we see is something different. It is a culture that encourages unity in the ranks by dehumanizing the other in order to legitimize oppressive behavior onto the other. I feel that it wasn't Michael Brown's blackness that killed him, but Darren Wilson's intense fear and hatred of the other that was previously conjured by a collective act wrongly utilized to create unity in the ranks with other police officers, and courtrooms, and communities. It was all a head job. > > In the case of elitism, it is a little different, but there are certainly commonalities. There is perhaps less a culture of fear, and more a culture of entitlement. I wonder if there is also a tribal communion that "you lived through the ritual of university as I did, and so you and I are family. That other person over there did not go through the ritual as we did, and so that other is not-family." > > Family is about taking care of one another, which means securing resources to share, right? In the case of people who are better educated, that would indicate privilege in the sense of being more knowledgeable, though we know that isn't always the case. There is also the political aspect of knowing others of the family and that the reason something like Facebook took off is because of "look who I know." It's all about exploiting one another's rolodexes. Networking doesn't only happen among elites, but something about this particular kind of networking seems to revolve around halls of power, which secures the best resources for the family. Also, it means maintaining the status quo so that these more hallowed forms of oppression are intact for the next generation. > > Another factor I see in considering the two forms of oppression that Francine has called to our attention is the matter of distancing. Oppression cannot occur without distancing. Usually that distancing is about justifying an oppressive move just before or after it has taken place, as in "the other deserved it." As if blaming the victim is an act of courage, not cowardice. Or "If I didn't do it first, the other would do it to me," which is in synch with "You are either a hammer or a nail," reasoning. > > What boggles my mind is that the reasoning of hammers and nail binaries, is that nails don't remain nailed, like inanimate objects. The other is in community with other others. And where there is violence involved there is hurt, and where there is hurt involved there will be fear and hatred and also enmity. > > Enmity is not created nor dislocated overnight. Why anyone would want to create an enemy is not by any means the sign of intelligence, because even if one is the victor in this round of violence, from that point on one must always look over one's shoulder for those in search of revenge and retribution against the victor. There must always be vigilance, which feeds into the systemic aspect of oppression. Control is legitimized because "Now they will come after us." > > There can never be peace in this circumstance, and it is a never-ending wheel of suffering. > > Thanks for letting me think out loud. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jan 5 16:04:00 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 00:04:00 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , , , , Message-ID: <1420502639918.23719@unm.edu> Hi Francine, I don't think I disagree with you. Certainly there are biological reasons involved as well, but is the lack of prefrontal cortical activity a cause of or is it an effect of oppression? Aren't we looking at the genesis of oppression? or more specifically how oppression is taught? The pedagogy? The ethical reasons are always clear that we do not want it. I believe the way you speak about it is "from the outside." I am saying that from a place of care, not of criticism. Speaking "from the outside" makes it hard to understand what is happening in the minds of those "from the inside," and reminds me of telling a pregnant teen she should have used birth control or abstinence. I don't mean to be antagonistic by saying that. Without legitimizing the acts of oppressors, we must understand how they are taught, right? It is for me an examination of their subjectivity. What is it like for them? Why do they want to oppress? What is their motivation? What are their feeling lives like? Why do they believe oppression is the only option? Otherwise, there is no answer as to the "why" that "individuals" surrender their self-responsbility to the "group." It may be difficult to empathize with the other, but I don't know any other way to face the problem. Kind regards, Annalisa From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Jan 5 16:35:08 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 17:35:08 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <1420501483459.21608@unm.edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <, > <1420501483459.21608@unm.edu> Message-ID: Larry and y?all, Way back three days ago Larry posted the following under the subject heading Primer of ?A Primer of Culture and Semantics?: "To others who like myself do not have a background in linguistics, I offer a very short 5 page essay that summarizes concisely the exploration of semantics within culture and language and cognition studies in the last century.? Heres?s the link Larry provided: http://www.revue-texto.net/Inedits/Manjali_Culture.html I am wondering if metaphor and embodied cognition, as per the work of Lakoff and others, might be considered of use in the current thread. Oppression has the hallmarks of of a generative metaphor and this thread, oppression, and a way out of the opression itself might be fruitfully construed in the light of dialog/discourse analysis. Of especial interest to me is the final paragraph of the article: "It may be concluded from the above deliberations that after defining the basic premises of Cognitive Grammar (Langacker 1987, Lakoff 1987), mainly on the basis of earlier works on natural categorisation in psychology (Rosch), anthropological linguistics (Berlin and Kay), philosophy (Wittgenstein) and sociolinguistics (Labov), cognitive linguists turned to issues which had been the main object of linguistic inquiry before the advent of generative theory. Langacker (1991) offered a number of analyses of different linguistic phenomena utilising the earlier defined notions and premises of cognitive linguistics. It has become necessary to verify theoretical constructs and predictions in terms of new empirical data. Two areas of research seem to be particularly promising in this context: cognitive analysis of discourse (Langacker 1999, Langacker 2001) and cognitive description of the language acquisition processes. Both of these research domains offer massive corpora of unidealized, raw linguistic data. Attempts to describe discourse may serve to demonstrate how linguistic knowledge is utilised by real users in real context, while attempts aimed at describing the process of language acquisition may demonstrate how this knowledge is really shaped in contextualised grammatical ontogenesis under the pressure of various mental and environmental factors. On the other hand, Langacker?s (2000) dynamic usage-based model may well provide a more adequate framework for an insightful and comprehensive description of the mechanisms of language acquisition. The future of cognitively motivated research on language acquisition seems to be promising." Just wondering. Henry > On Jan 5, 2015, at 4:44 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Larry and others, > > I am interested in "structures of feeling." Would you recommend anything in particular by Williams? > > I think I am with you (if this is what you are saying) that a vocabulary of sensing and feeling are important and frequently overlooked or swept under the carpet as if feeling were proof of weakness and not of humanity. > > Also please recommend any reading by Levinas? > > Thank you for your additions to the soup. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jan 5 16:36:32 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 00:36:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , , , , , , , <1420499435703.73468@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1420504591743.28473@unm.edu> Hi Francine! See, now I interpreted Peter's comments to mean that there are more than two points of view (as when I was considering "east/west;" "capitalism/communism;" etc). Like there are many points of view, perhaps uncountable. I had said earlier that "a" pedagogy gets away from there being "one" or "the" pedagogy. I intuit that we shouldn't be reductive when it comes to understanding the mind of the oppressor; this is why I believe there are many pedagogies of oppression. There may be commonalities, but it is also possible that there are some factors present in one pedagogy that is absent in another, or present to a lessor degree. I can accept that one who was oppressed can become an oppressor. That's the very predictable "violence begets violence" cycle, as you point out. That is "a" pedagogy. It is hard for me to explain why anyone would punch anyone, because I've never entertained the desire to punch someone. However, I can understand that there must be emotions there, and I would like to try to understand them from the inside rather than rationalize them from the outside. I don't like to explain violence as too much testosterone, because it seems sexist to me, it also makes it equivalent to someone "going crazy," "losing control," which brings to mind a need to control as a solution, or worse, "the" solution. This seems a replication of the same problem. I would rather suppose that the violent person is hurting and acting out of hurt and fear, as a desire to protect oneself and to survive. That makes more sense to me. It may not be rational, but it makes sense to me why a person is violent. Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Jan 5 17:45:43 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 17:45:43 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <1420501483459.21608@unm.edu> Message-ID: Henry, Franson Manjali's 5 page summary I thought was a wonderful summary of where we have been in exploring the relations among language, cognition, and *mind*. I felt each paragraph could be expanded into a different thread to be explored. With the guidance [and leadership] of others on this list [with more understanding of linguistics within anthropology and psychology] I hope we may possibly read shared articles on this theme. Or alternatively, I could *listen in* as others more informed on this topic have an ongoing conversation on these topics. In those 5 pages Franson moved historically through an expansive historically effective horizon f understanding. How do I now *enter* this fascinating realm with my limited background. I was able to follow each paragraph of the article [read as individual events] because of my previous readings and conversations playing out on this listserve. The reason I posted this article *as a primer* was the way Franson *traced* the development of the evolving *dialogue* over a hundred year epoch. I wanted to share his way of com-posing a historical interweaving scholarship as his way of linking these linguistic theories as a conversation. A historically developing story that led him to his summary statement. If others wanted to follow your suggestion to look deeply into his summary statement I would be willing to contact Franson and explore if he has pursued his own recommendation. Maybe he even has an article he would share with us. He has a new book out "Labyrinths of Language* which is an anthology of articles he has written. On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 4:35 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Larry and y?all, > Way back three days ago Larry posted the following under the subject > heading Primer of ?A Primer of Culture and Semantics?: > > "To others who like myself do not have a background in linguistics, I offer > a very short 5 page essay that summarizes concisely the exploration of > semantics within culture and language and cognition studies in the last > century.? > > Heres?s the link Larry provided: > http://www.revue-texto.net/Inedits/Manjali_Culture.html < > http://www.revue-texto.net/Inedits/Manjali_Culture.html> > > I am wondering if metaphor and embodied cognition, as per the work of > Lakoff and others, might be considered of use in the current thread. > Oppression has the hallmarks of of a generative metaphor and this thread, > oppression, and a way out of the opression itself might be fruitfully > construed in the light of dialog/discourse analysis. Of especial interest > to me is the final paragraph of the article: > > "It may be concluded from the above deliberations that after defining the > basic premises of Cognitive Grammar (Langacker 1987, Lakoff 1987), mainly > on the basis of earlier works on natural categorisation in psychology > (Rosch), anthropological linguistics (Berlin and Kay), philosophy > (Wittgenstein) and sociolinguistics (Labov), cognitive linguists turned to > issues which had been the main object of linguistic inquiry before the > advent of generative theory. Langacker (1991) offered a number of analyses > of different linguistic phenomena utilising the earlier defined notions and > premises of cognitive linguistics. It has become necessary to verify > theoretical constructs and predictions in terms of new empirical data. Two > areas of research seem to be particularly promising in this context: > cognitive analysis of discourse (Langacker 1999, Langacker 2001) and > cognitive description of the language acquisition processes. Both of these > research domains offer massive corpora of unidealized, raw linguistic data. > Attempts to describe discourse may serve to demonstrate how linguistic > knowledge is utilised by real users in real context, while attempts aimed > at describing the process of language acquisition may demonstrate how this > knowledge is really shaped in contextualised grammatical ontogenesis under > the pressure of various mental and environmental factors. On the other > hand, Langacker?s (2000) dynamic usage-based model may well provide a more > adequate framework for an insightful and comprehensive description of the > mechanisms of language acquisition. The future of cognitively motivated > research on language acquisition seems to be promising." > > Just wondering. > > Henry > > > > On Jan 5, 2015, at 4:44 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > > Larry and others, > > > > I am interested in "structures of feeling." Would you recommend anything > in particular by Williams? > > > > I think I am with you (if this is what you are saying) that a vocabulary > of sensing and feeling are important and frequently overlooked or swept > under the carpet as if feeling were proof of weakness and not of humanity. > > > > Also please recommend any reading by Levinas? > > > > Thank you for your additions to the soup. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Mon Jan 5 19:10:31 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 21:10:31 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <1420502639918.23719@unm.edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , , , , , , , , , , , <1420502639918.23719@unm.edu> Message-ID: Message from Francine: Annalisa et al, In regard to the development of the prefrontal cortex: This is an important area of research in contemporary neuroscience that arose directly out of Vygotsky and Luria's collaboration (especially, from the last two years of Vygotsky's life when both he and Luria were attending medical school). >From a Vygotsky-Luria perspective the development of the prefrontal cortical connections with the rest of the brain is the result of the internalization of the verbal guidance of a more knowledgeable person. For social or neurological reasons this might not occur. Also, chemical agents (such as drinking and smoking pot) as a preteen or teen can interfere in the last critical stages of prefrontal development. Without internal self-guidance, one needs the guidance of another person or a group (hopefully that other person or group is a good influence). In regard, to my speaking "from the outside" that certainly is true. Many XMCARs know that I am not an advocate of Leontiev's Activity Theory or of CHAT. But I am an advocate of Vygotskian theory and Luria's neuroscience. So we share an interest in Vygotsky's writings. Also, I am not a person of color. Politically, I am an independent -not a liberal, not a conservative. I admire people like Christopher Hitchens who could think for themselves and called things as they saw it. I can empathize with the oppressed because of my own background and that of my people. Poland did not exist for 150 years. My great-grandmother ran an underground schoolhouse where she taught children how to read and write Polish under the Czarist threat of being shot for doing so. [Ironically, I translate Russian into English.] My parents grew up in a ghetto in Chicago during the Great Depression where they usually had no food to eat. My Dad had the 'white man's privilege' of doing four beach heads in the Pacific during WWII. While on Okinawa he received a letter from my mom trying to raise his spirits by telling him that his parents would have heat during the winter because they took wood planks from a condemned building during the night to burn in their wood stove (scavenging was against the law). After the war my dad was a factory worker, when I was 13 he died from a bad aortic heart valve (rheumatic fever when he was 7 - he should never have been drafted). My parents never attended high school - I worked my way to a Ph.D. from the University of Chicago. No one told me to learn Russian or translate Vygotsky, I figured that out myself. I know my opinions are not in line with a lot of the 'group think' that goes on among some XMCARs. But one of my former students is an XMCAR who has never posted on a thread, so I figure there are other XMCARs reading our threads who might appreciate some alternate perspectives. Also Annalisa, I really appreciate the way you give serious consideration to my comments. And I think you deserve a lot of credit for these threads moving forward into new emerging perspectives. > From: annalisa@unm.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 00:04:00 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Hi Francine, > > I don't think I disagree with you. > > Certainly there are biological reasons involved as well, but is the lack of prefrontal cortical activity a cause of or is it an effect of oppression? > > Aren't we looking at the genesis of oppression? or more specifically how oppression is taught? The pedagogy? The ethical reasons are always clear that we do not want it. > > I believe the way you speak about it is "from the outside." I am saying that from a place of care, not of criticism. > > Speaking "from the outside" makes it hard to understand what is happening in the minds of those "from the inside," and reminds me of telling a pregnant teen she should have used birth control or abstinence. > > I don't mean to be antagonistic by saying that. > > Without legitimizing the acts of oppressors, we must understand how they are taught, right? It is for me an examination of their subjectivity. What is it like for them? Why do they want to oppress? What is their motivation? What are their feeling lives like? Why do they believe oppression is the only option? > > Otherwise, there is no answer as to the "why" that "individuals" surrender their self-responsbility to the "group." > > It may be difficult to empathize with the other, but I don't know any other way to face the problem. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Jan 5 19:32:53 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 20:32:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu> Message-ID: Vera, Yes, I fear that people on both sides of the political aisle have been influenced by an ideology of individualism in their interpretations of the recent police violence against African-American men. On the political right, this is interpreted as a case of a few bad cops and hence not a serious problem. On the political left, this is interpreted as a case of white racist cops (really just another version of the "a few bad cops" theory). I think both perspectives miss the point of structural/institutional (and hence hidden) racism and the context of policing that preceded these instances. There is a wonderful book out that explores some of the background context that was subsequent to (and consequent to) these instances and which is crucially important for what happened in those cases. The book is Matt Taibbi's Divide: American Injustice in the Age of the Wealth Gap. The one sentence explanation: new policing policies target certain communities (poor and typically black) and subject persons in those communities to arrests for things such as "obstructing pedestrian traffic" - even for standing in front of their own home (anyone on the list serve ever been arrested for standing in front of your home?). I would highly recommend this radio interview with Taibbi about this book: http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/americas-justice-divide And I am happy to hear that Alice Goffman's book is being read. I recall meeting her earlier on in her career and she was a bit anxious about her work (and frustrated by others' fascination with her pedigree which she felt distracted from her work, which, imho, is absolutely remarkable ethnographic work). Anyway, I'd second her book as an excellent source for anyone wanting to learn more about what life is like for African-American men living in poverty in the inner-city. -greg On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 11:27 PM, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > I agree with Greg that the problem we face when confronting oppression is > the ideology of individualism. In discussions about Ferguson and related > events we are frequently told that police brutality is due to a few bad > cops. But what we are faced with is a system of oppression that has been > hidden from public view but is deeply and painfully experienced by members > of many poor African-American communities. A recent book by Alice Goffman ( > a sociologist as was her famous father) entitled On the Run describes her > experiences in a Philadelphia Black community where she lived for six years > while both an undergraduate and graduate student. I only read extensive > interviews with her (waiting for the book) in which she detailed > the incessant harassment and persecution of young Black men as well as the > oppression of their mothers, partners etc. How are future members of the > police taught and socialized to carry out these acts? I am not sure, but > there is a pedagogy involved in turning these future cops into oppressors. > And there are many structural reasons why in our current society we want > to jail rather than create employment for young men who may have done > nothing or misbehaved in ways for which young white men would experience a > slap on the wrist. I do agree that a start was made by members of the > Frankfurt school in trying to explore some psychological features of > oppression under Nazi rule. But not much else has been done since then > about the socialization that turns na?ve youth into occupying soldiers, > cops or prison guards. It is a grim topic and though I thought I wanted to > pursue it, I did not have Alice Goffman's courage and determination. And > thus choosing avoidance I,too, am an accessory to oppression. > > Vera > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+vygotsky=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+vygotsky=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg > Thompson > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 9:12 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Francis, > I too try for an approach of (viral?) immanent critique. I think that > there are situations where people will "get it" (or maybe "get infected by > it"), but I particularly sympathize with your day-by-day worries that I'm > not doing enough and that I should be taking more radical action. But I > also recall the words of a mentor of mine, feminist scholar and philosopher > of education Audrey Thompson, who used to point out the importance of > carrying out a work on multiple levels - some more radical than others but > all are necessary for change to happen (e.g., Malcolm X and MLK). Still not > sure I'm convinced of that (if not now, when? if not you, who? and all > that...), but it's where I'm at. > > The overwhelmingly white and mostly middle-class students I confront have > very good hearts and are often quite interested in this project of > "liberating the oppressed" (a phrasing that still makes me nervous - > Perhaps because it seems overly ambitious, or perhaps because it smacks of > paternalism, but for both reasons I think it is a propos for describing > what my students are up to). The problem is that my students seem to think > in ways that are ideologically individualistic. These students can't see > beyond psychological thinking in which individuals are entirely responsible > for all that they think and do. They can't see how anything beyond the > individual could have much relevance to the individual, much less how it > could play a constitutive role. They are entirely taken by the myth of > individual will and see the task of liberation of the oppressed to be a > simple task of educating the oppressed to be more willful in their efforts > to succeed in an (assumedly) meritocratic system. As a result, they throw > all their energies behind projects that are doomed to fail in terms of > accomplishing what they want to accomplish, i.e., "helping" other people. > > So, for me, a pedagogy of the oppressors (which, is, in part to say, the > focus of my own re-search and education) is a pedagogy that can help > liberate these students from an individualistic ideology (and following > Michael G, this is not to say that there is anything wrong with people > thinking as individuals - the problem lies with the ideology of > individualism). And yes, here is where I see the approach of CHAT to be > really remarkably useful precisely AS a pedagogy of the oppressor. CHAT > offers a way of appreciating the role of context in the ongoing > constitution of individuals. That seems useful. Perhaps even liberating... > > cheers, > greg > > p.s. One recent TED talk I came across that I find useful (particularly > for those students of mine who are interested in international development, > of which I have a fair number) is Sirolli's talk titled "Want to Help > Someone: > Shut Up and Listen": > > http://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_listen > > The talk and Sirolli's approach leave a lot to be desired, but I sincerely > appreciate the sentiment "if you want to help someone, shut up and listen", > and I have found this to be useful to get students to actually begin to > realize that the world may be bigger (and perhaps badder) than they had > previously imagined. > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 6:16 PM, FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN > wrote: > > > Wow, this is a great thread, one I think about all the time, as one of > > the oppressors. Not by choice, as I see this as a structural, or > > rather a "positional" category, akin to the workings of power in terms > > of one's relationship to the means of production. I can still recall > > Horkheimer and Adorno's anecdote in *Dialectic of Enlightenment*, one > > the ways that the songs of the Sirens went unheard by Odysseus' > > crew--as he had stoppered their ears--yet remained useless to Odysseus > as he was lashed to the mast. > > So, I certainly agree that we need a pedagogy of the oppressors as a > > complement to that of the oppressed. I always thought that was the > > major effort of the Frankfurt School. > > As someone who teaches secondary school pre-service teachers, I am > > quite aware of my structural position as an "officer of the State." I > > was in the middle of revising my syllabi for the upcoming semester > > when I saw this thread emerge. The advent of the corporate reform of > > schooling called Common Core poses a fundamental threat to the > > democratic roots of education in the US, yet I can neither ignore it > > nor simply trash it. The students I prepare must be able to address > > the Core if they are to have a career at all. So, for better or worse, > > I find the best resistance to be the tightest embrace of the > > "principles" embedded in the Core, an embrace that, I hope, lets me > > transform them into a useful and useable critique of the Core itself. > > So, this semester, we examine "speaking" and "writing" standards in > > terms of dialect, code, and register differences. We develop lessons > > and units in which high school students grapple with the reality of > > "code-switching," and the choices one can make to successfully > > navigate speech and writing situations defined by conflicting purposes > and relational hierarchies. > > > > Of course, all this is news to my students, almost all of whom are > > white and middle-class, and most of whom are male. So, I approach > > these topics by emphasizing that learners develop best when teaching > > meets them where they are and builds on what they know. I choose texts > > that de-emphasize the kinds of oppression that plays out in the lives > > of urban students. So, where does someone like me fit in this mosaic? > > Are we "leading the resistance from behind; or allowing ourselves to > > be co-opted?" My answer to that changes at least weekly, sometimes > > daily. I can only say that I'm doing what I can. > > > > Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor > > Department of Teaching and Learning > > College of Education > > Temple University > > Philadelphia, PA 19122 > > > > > > Find out what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact > > measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. > > > > Frederick Douglass > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > I am peeling off from the old thread to begin a new thread! > > > > > > > > > Our inquiry hear appears to be: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > > > > > > I suggest "a" and not "the" because there could be more than one, > surely? > > > > > > > > > For new arrivers to this thread, it commenced from this thread here: > > > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848 > > > > > > > > > With its genesis here, thanks to Greg! > > > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848?keywords=#52332? > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From glassman.13@osu.edu Mon Jan 5 20:16:40 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 04:16:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Just to show how complicated the issue is there is also a countervailing ideology of collectivism. The thin blue line remains very much a phenomenon that is having a big impact on New York City today. This is years after Frank Serpico who points to this ideology among the police 40 years after he was pretty much destroyed because he spoke out against this idea of a single police force. A recent article he wrote http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/10/the-police-are-still-out-of-control-112160.html#.VKtgLCvF-Fw Most individuals go along to get along, even when it is against their own interests. Police for instance are safer when they have relationships in the communities. The police in New York would be far better off if they admitted that Eric Garner was killed by the unwarranted actions of the policeperson. But that isn't part of their culture - they learn instead to protect their "way of life." They believe protecting their culture is in some ways protecting themselves. So you look at Ferguson and you see the ideology of individualism. You look at New York and you see the ideology of collectivism. Perhaps it is not that we can't find answers. Perhaps it is that we are asking the wrong questions. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Greg Thompson [greg.a.thompson@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 10:32 PM To: vygotsky@unm.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? Vera, Yes, I fear that people on both sides of the political aisle have been influenced by an ideology of individualism in their interpretations of the recent police violence against African-American men. On the political right, this is interpreted as a case of a few bad cops and hence not a serious problem. On the political left, this is interpreted as a case of white racist cops (really just another version of the "a few bad cops" theory). I think both perspectives miss the point of structural/institutional (and hence hidden) racism and the context of policing that preceded these instances. There is a wonderful book out that explores some of the background context that was subsequent to (and consequent to) these instances and which is crucially important for what happened in those cases. The book is Matt Taibbi's Divide: American Injustice in the Age of the Wealth Gap. The one sentence explanation: new policing policies target certain communities (poor and typically black) and subject persons in those communities to arrests for things such as "obstructing pedestrian traffic" - even for standing in front of their own home (anyone on the list serve ever been arrested for standing in front of your home?). I would highly recommend this radio interview with Taibbi about this book: http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/americas-justice-divide And I am happy to hear that Alice Goffman's book is being read. I recall meeting her earlier on in her career and she was a bit anxious about her work (and frustrated by others' fascination with her pedigree which she felt distracted from her work, which, imho, is absolutely remarkable ethnographic work). Anyway, I'd second her book as an excellent source for anyone wanting to learn more about what life is like for African-American men living in poverty in the inner-city. -greg On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 11:27 PM, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > I agree with Greg that the problem we face when confronting oppression is > the ideology of individualism. In discussions about Ferguson and related > events we are frequently told that police brutality is due to a few bad > cops. But what we are faced with is a system of oppression that has been > hidden from public view but is deeply and painfully experienced by members > of many poor African-American communities. A recent book by Alice Goffman ( > a sociologist as was her famous father) entitled On the Run describes her > experiences in a Philadelphia Black community where she lived for six years > while both an undergraduate and graduate student. I only read extensive > interviews with her (waiting for the book) in which she detailed > the incessant harassment and persecution of young Black men as well as the > oppression of their mothers, partners etc. How are future members of the > police taught and socialized to carry out these acts? I am not sure, but > there is a pedagogy involved in turning these future cops into oppressors. > And there are many structural reasons why in our current society we want > to jail rather than create employment for young men who may have done > nothing or misbehaved in ways for which young white men would experience a > slap on the wrist. I do agree that a start was made by members of the > Frankfurt school in trying to explore some psychological features of > oppression under Nazi rule. But not much else has been done since then > about the socialization that turns na?ve youth into occupying soldiers, > cops or prison guards. It is a grim topic and though I thought I wanted to > pursue it, I did not have Alice Goffman's courage and determination. And > thus choosing avoidance I,too, am an accessory to oppression. > > Vera > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+vygotsky=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+vygotsky=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg > Thompson > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 9:12 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Francis, > I too try for an approach of (viral?) immanent critique. I think that > there are situations where people will "get it" (or maybe "get infected by > it"), but I particularly sympathize with your day-by-day worries that I'm > not doing enough and that I should be taking more radical action. But I > also recall the words of a mentor of mine, feminist scholar and philosopher > of education Audrey Thompson, who used to point out the importance of > carrying out a work on multiple levels - some more radical than others but > all are necessary for change to happen (e.g., Malcolm X and MLK). Still not > sure I'm convinced of that (if not now, when? if not you, who? and all > that...), but it's where I'm at. > > The overwhelmingly white and mostly middle-class students I confront have > very good hearts and are often quite interested in this project of > "liberating the oppressed" (a phrasing that still makes me nervous - > Perhaps because it seems overly ambitious, or perhaps because it smacks of > paternalism, but for both reasons I think it is a propos for describing > what my students are up to). The problem is that my students seem to think > in ways that are ideologically individualistic. These students can't see > beyond psychological thinking in which individuals are entirely responsible > for all that they think and do. They can't see how anything beyond the > individual could have much relevance to the individual, much less how it > could play a constitutive role. They are entirely taken by the myth of > individual will and see the task of liberation of the oppressed to be a > simple task of educating the oppressed to be more willful in their efforts > to succeed in an (assumedly) meritocratic system. As a result, they throw > all their energies behind projects that are doomed to fail in terms of > accomplishing what they want to accomplish, i.e., "helping" other people. > > So, for me, a pedagogy of the oppressors (which, is, in part to say, the > focus of my own re-search and education) is a pedagogy that can help > liberate these students from an individualistic ideology (and following > Michael G, this is not to say that there is anything wrong with people > thinking as individuals - the problem lies with the ideology of > individualism). And yes, here is where I see the approach of CHAT to be > really remarkably useful precisely AS a pedagogy of the oppressor. CHAT > offers a way of appreciating the role of context in the ongoing > constitution of individuals. That seems useful. Perhaps even liberating... > > cheers, > greg > > p.s. One recent TED talk I came across that I find useful (particularly > for those students of mine who are interested in international development, > of which I have a fair number) is Sirolli's talk titled "Want to Help > Someone: > Shut Up and Listen": > > http://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_listen > > The talk and Sirolli's approach leave a lot to be desired, but I sincerely > appreciate the sentiment "if you want to help someone, shut up and listen", > and I have found this to be useful to get students to actually begin to > realize that the world may be bigger (and perhaps badder) than they had > previously imagined. > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 6:16 PM, FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN > wrote: > > > Wow, this is a great thread, one I think about all the time, as one of > > the oppressors. Not by choice, as I see this as a structural, or > > rather a "positional" category, akin to the workings of power in terms > > of one's relationship to the means of production. I can still recall > > Horkheimer and Adorno's anecdote in *Dialectic of Enlightenment*, one > > the ways that the songs of the Sirens went unheard by Odysseus' > > crew--as he had stoppered their ears--yet remained useless to Odysseus > as he was lashed to the mast. > > So, I certainly agree that we need a pedagogy of the oppressors as a > > complement to that of the oppressed. I always thought that was the > > major effort of the Frankfurt School. > > As someone who teaches secondary school pre-service teachers, I am > > quite aware of my structural position as an "officer of the State." I > > was in the middle of revising my syllabi for the upcoming semester > > when I saw this thread emerge. The advent of the corporate reform of > > schooling called Common Core poses a fundamental threat to the > > democratic roots of education in the US, yet I can neither ignore it > > nor simply trash it. The students I prepare must be able to address > > the Core if they are to have a career at all. So, for better or worse, > > I find the best resistance to be the tightest embrace of the > > "principles" embedded in the Core, an embrace that, I hope, lets me > > transform them into a useful and useable critique of the Core itself. > > So, this semester, we examine "speaking" and "writing" standards in > > terms of dialect, code, and register differences. We develop lessons > > and units in which high school students grapple with the reality of > > "code-switching," and the choices one can make to successfully > > navigate speech and writing situations defined by conflicting purposes > and relational hierarchies. > > > > Of course, all this is news to my students, almost all of whom are > > white and middle-class, and most of whom are male. So, I approach > > these topics by emphasizing that learners develop best when teaching > > meets them where they are and builds on what they know. I choose texts > > that de-emphasize the kinds of oppression that plays out in the lives > > of urban students. So, where does someone like me fit in this mosaic? > > Are we "leading the resistance from behind; or allowing ourselves to > > be co-opted?" My answer to that changes at least weekly, sometimes > > daily. I can only say that I'm doing what I can. > > > > Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor > > Department of Teaching and Learning > > College of Education > > Temple University > > Philadelphia, PA 19122 > > > > > > Find out what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact > > measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. > > > > Frederick Douglass > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > I am peeling off from the old thread to begin a new thread! > > > > > > > > > Our inquiry hear appears to be: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > > > > > > I suggest "a" and not "the" because there could be more than one, > surely? > > > > > > > > > For new arrivers to this thread, it commenced from this thread here: > > > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848 > > > > > > > > > With its genesis here, thanks to Greg! > > > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848?keywords=#52332? > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Mon Jan 5 20:59:48 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 22:59:48 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Message from Francine: Michael, What do you imagine was 'going on' with the black woman who was the police sergeant who was there (and who was in charge) when Eric Garner was "killed by a policeperson." The officer who had Garner in a head lock was being supervised at that very moment by this African-American woman police sergeant (does she have a name?) - wouldn't she have to be charged with negligent manslaughter as well? > From: glassman.13@osu.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 04:16:40 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Just to show how complicated the issue is there is also a countervailing ideology of collectivism. The thin blue line remains very much a phenomenon that is having a big impact on New York City today. This is years after Frank Serpico who points to this ideology among the police 40 years after he was pretty much destroyed because he spoke out against this idea of a single police force. > > A recent article he wrote > > http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/10/the-police-are-still-out-of-control-112160.html#.VKtgLCvF-Fw > > > Most individuals go along to get along, even when it is against their own interests. Police for instance are safer when they have relationships in the communities. The police in New York would be far better off if they admitted that Eric Garner was killed by the unwarranted actions of the policeperson. But that isn't part of their culture - they learn instead to protect their "way of life." They believe protecting their culture is in some ways protecting themselves. So you look at Ferguson and you see the ideology of individualism. You look at New York and you see the ideology of collectivism. Perhaps it is not that we can't find answers. Perhaps it is that we are asking the wrong questions. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Greg Thompson [greg.a.thompson@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 10:32 PM > To: vygotsky@unm.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Vera, > Yes, I fear that people on both sides of the political aisle have been > influenced by an ideology of individualism in their interpretations of the > recent police violence against African-American men. On the political > right, this is interpreted as a case of a few bad cops and hence not a > serious problem. On the political left, this is interpreted as a case of > white racist cops (really just another version of the "a few bad cops" > theory). > > I think both perspectives miss the point of structural/institutional (and > hence hidden) racism and the context of policing that preceded these > instances. > > There is a wonderful book out that explores some of the background context > that was subsequent to (and consequent to) these instances and which is > crucially important for what happened in those cases. The book is Matt > Taibbi's Divide: American Injustice in the Age of the Wealth Gap. > > The one sentence explanation: new policing policies target certain > communities (poor and typically black) and subject persons in those > communities to arrests for things such as "obstructing pedestrian traffic" > - even for standing in front of their own home (anyone on the list serve > ever been arrested for standing in front of your home?). > > I would highly recommend this radio interview with Taibbi about this book: > http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/americas-justice-divide > > And I am happy to hear that Alice Goffman's book is being read. I recall > meeting her earlier on in her career and she was a bit anxious about her > work (and frustrated by others' fascination with her pedigree which she > felt distracted from her work, which, imho, is absolutely remarkable > ethnographic work). Anyway, I'd second her book as an excellent source for > anyone wanting to learn more about what life is like for African-American > men living in poverty in the inner-city. > > -greg > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 11:27 PM, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > > > I agree with Greg that the problem we face when confronting oppression is > > the ideology of individualism. In discussions about Ferguson and related > > events we are frequently told that police brutality is due to a few bad > > cops. But what we are faced with is a system of oppression that has been > > hidden from public view but is deeply and painfully experienced by members > > of many poor African-American communities. A recent book by Alice Goffman ( > > a sociologist as was her famous father) entitled On the Run describes her > > experiences in a Philadelphia Black community where she lived for six years > > while both an undergraduate and graduate student. I only read extensive > > interviews with her (waiting for the book) in which she detailed > > the incessant harassment and persecution of young Black men as well as the > > oppression of their mothers, partners etc. How are future members of the > > police taught and socialized to carry out these acts? I am not sure, but > > there is a pedagogy involved in turning these future cops into oppressors. > > And there are many structural reasons why in our current society we want > > to jail rather than create employment for young men who may have done > > nothing or misbehaved in ways for which young white men would experience a > > slap on the wrist. I do agree that a start was made by members of the > > Frankfurt school in trying to explore some psychological features of > > oppression under Nazi rule. But not much else has been done since then > > about the socialization that turns na?ve youth into occupying soldiers, > > cops or prison guards. It is a grim topic and though I thought I wanted to > > pursue it, I did not have Alice Goffman's courage and determination. And > > thus choosing avoidance I,too, am an accessory to oppression. > > > > Vera > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces+vygotsky=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces+vygotsky=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg > > Thompson > > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 9:12 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > Francis, > > I too try for an approach of (viral?) immanent critique. I think that > > there are situations where people will "get it" (or maybe "get infected by > > it"), but I particularly sympathize with your day-by-day worries that I'm > > not doing enough and that I should be taking more radical action. But I > > also recall the words of a mentor of mine, feminist scholar and philosopher > > of education Audrey Thompson, who used to point out the importance of > > carrying out a work on multiple levels - some more radical than others but > > all are necessary for change to happen (e.g., Malcolm X and MLK). Still not > > sure I'm convinced of that (if not now, when? if not you, who? and all > > that...), but it's where I'm at. > > > > The overwhelmingly white and mostly middle-class students I confront have > > very good hearts and are often quite interested in this project of > > "liberating the oppressed" (a phrasing that still makes me nervous - > > Perhaps because it seems overly ambitious, or perhaps because it smacks of > > paternalism, but for both reasons I think it is a propos for describing > > what my students are up to). The problem is that my students seem to think > > in ways that are ideologically individualistic. These students can't see > > beyond psychological thinking in which individuals are entirely responsible > > for all that they think and do. They can't see how anything beyond the > > individual could have much relevance to the individual, much less how it > > could play a constitutive role. They are entirely taken by the myth of > > individual will and see the task of liberation of the oppressed to be a > > simple task of educating the oppressed to be more willful in their efforts > > to succeed in an (assumedly) meritocratic system. As a result, they throw > > all their energies behind projects that are doomed to fail in terms of > > accomplishing what they want to accomplish, i.e., "helping" other people. > > > > So, for me, a pedagogy of the oppressors (which, is, in part to say, the > > focus of my own re-search and education) is a pedagogy that can help > > liberate these students from an individualistic ideology (and following > > Michael G, this is not to say that there is anything wrong with people > > thinking as individuals - the problem lies with the ideology of > > individualism). And yes, here is where I see the approach of CHAT to be > > really remarkably useful precisely AS a pedagogy of the oppressor. CHAT > > offers a way of appreciating the role of context in the ongoing > > constitution of individuals. That seems useful. Perhaps even liberating... > > > > cheers, > > greg > > > > p.s. One recent TED talk I came across that I find useful (particularly > > for those students of mine who are interested in international development, > > of which I have a fair number) is Sirolli's talk titled "Want to Help > > Someone: > > Shut Up and Listen": > > > > http://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_listen > > > > The talk and Sirolli's approach leave a lot to be desired, but I sincerely > > appreciate the sentiment "if you want to help someone, shut up and listen", > > and I have found this to be useful to get students to actually begin to > > realize that the world may be bigger (and perhaps badder) than they had > > previously imagined. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 6:16 PM, FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN > > wrote: > > > > > Wow, this is a great thread, one I think about all the time, as one of > > > the oppressors. Not by choice, as I see this as a structural, or > > > rather a "positional" category, akin to the workings of power in terms > > > of one's relationship to the means of production. I can still recall > > > Horkheimer and Adorno's anecdote in *Dialectic of Enlightenment*, one > > > the ways that the songs of the Sirens went unheard by Odysseus' > > > crew--as he had stoppered their ears--yet remained useless to Odysseus > > as he was lashed to the mast. > > > So, I certainly agree that we need a pedagogy of the oppressors as a > > > complement to that of the oppressed. I always thought that was the > > > major effort of the Frankfurt School. > > > As someone who teaches secondary school pre-service teachers, I am > > > quite aware of my structural position as an "officer of the State." I > > > was in the middle of revising my syllabi for the upcoming semester > > > when I saw this thread emerge. The advent of the corporate reform of > > > schooling called Common Core poses a fundamental threat to the > > > democratic roots of education in the US, yet I can neither ignore it > > > nor simply trash it. The students I prepare must be able to address > > > the Core if they are to have a career at all. So, for better or worse, > > > I find the best resistance to be the tightest embrace of the > > > "principles" embedded in the Core, an embrace that, I hope, lets me > > > transform them into a useful and useable critique of the Core itself. > > > So, this semester, we examine "speaking" and "writing" standards in > > > terms of dialect, code, and register differences. We develop lessons > > > and units in which high school students grapple with the reality of > > > "code-switching," and the choices one can make to successfully > > > navigate speech and writing situations defined by conflicting purposes > > and relational hierarchies. > > > > > > Of course, all this is news to my students, almost all of whom are > > > white and middle-class, and most of whom are male. So, I approach > > > these topics by emphasizing that learners develop best when teaching > > > meets them where they are and builds on what they know. I choose texts > > > that de-emphasize the kinds of oppression that plays out in the lives > > > of urban students. So, where does someone like me fit in this mosaic? > > > Are we "leading the resistance from behind; or allowing ourselves to > > > be co-opted?" My answer to that changes at least weekly, sometimes > > > daily. I can only say that I'm doing what I can. > > > > > > Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. > > > Associate Professor > > > Department of Teaching and Learning > > > College of Education > > > Temple University > > > Philadelphia, PA 19122 > > > > > > > > > Find out what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact > > > measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. > > > > > > Frederick Douglass > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > I am peeling off from the old thread to begin a new thread! > > > > > > > > > > > > Our inquiry hear appears to be: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest "a" and not "the" because there could be more than one, > > surely? > > > > > > > > > > > > For new arrivers to this thread, it commenced from this thread here: > > > > > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848 > > > > > > > > > > > > With its genesis here, thanks to Greg! > > > > > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848?keywords=#52332? > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Jan 5 21:44:51 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 21:44:51 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <1420502639918.23719@unm.edu> Message-ID: Francine, I would like to have you expand on your comment: >From a Vygotsky-Luria perspective the development of the prefrontal cortical connections with the rest of the brain is the result of the internalization of the verbal guidance of a more knowledgeable person. I am not questioning the notion of internalization of *guidance* of more knowledgeable persons. My question is not questioning the major influence of *verbal guidance* My question concerns your use of *is* verbal guidance as possibly bracketing out other means of guidance that may have been critical to the development of the prefrontal cortex. In other words other communicational forms of guidance. For example processes such as *gestural guidance* which becomes internalized that is prelinguistic. My question relates to the exploration of theories of *felt structures* of intersubjective social phenomena. Developmentally the extension of this *gestural guidance* through verbal thinking was a central increase in prefrontal cortex development, but I wonder if the human capacity for *sound* gestures as *guidance* that become internalized is also a central phenomena. The kind of work Rod Parker is re-searching and scholars such as Daniel Stern. Recognizing that verbal thought is the most complex and transformative human phenomena that moves inward and becomes internalized as self regulation. However, I wonder if the growth of the pre-frontal cortex is also implicated in other levels of *social intersubjective guidance* which also become internalized as "felt structures" that are preconceptual social phenomena. The notion that *verbal thinking* is the most highly developed and very complex type of gesturing which becomes internalized along with other modes of gesturing guidance which also become internalized. Do Vygotsky and Luria hypothesize that it is the specific developmental moment of interweaving when thinking becomes verbal that leads to an explosion of the prefrontal cortex. I wonder if this moment is an extension of a more primary *gestural guidance* that Vygotsky explores in chapter 4 on the genetic roots of verbal thought. Vygotsky mentioned in chapter 4 that *verbal thought* is *circumscribed* and therefore I wonder if thinking [that is not verbal] AND communicating [which is not conceptual] also play some formative role as other social multi-modal functions which also resulted in precortical development. Yes social communication phenomena, but not bracketing *verbal thinking* as the only internalized process of self-regulation I hope I am asking a clear question? I recognize this line of questioning may need to move to another thread. Thanks Francine for the opportunity to chat Larry Larry On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 7:10 PM, larry smolucha wrote: > Message from Francine: > > Annalisa et al, > > In regard to the development of the prefrontal cortex: > This is an important area of research in contemporary neuroscience > that > arose directly out of Vygotsky and Luria's collaboration (especially, from > the last > two years of Vygotsky's life when both he and Luria were attending medical > school). > >From a Vygotsky-Luria perspective the development of the prefrontal > cortical connections > with the rest of the brain is the result of the internalization of the > verbal guidance > of a more knowledgeable person. For social or neurological reasons this > might > not occur. Also, chemical agents (such as drinking and smoking pot) as a > preteen > or teen can interfere in the last critical stages of prefrontal > development. > Without internal self-guidance, one needs the guidance of another person > or a group > (hopefully that other person or group is a good influence). > > In regard, to my speaking "from the outside" that certainly is true. > Many XMCARs know that I am not an advocate of Leontiev's Activity Theory or > of CHAT. But I am an advocate of Vygotskian theory and Luria's > neuroscience. > So we share an interest in Vygotsky's writings. > > Also, I am not a person of color. Politically, I am an independent -not a > liberal, > not a conservative. I admire people like Christopher Hitchens who could > think > for themselves and called things as they saw it. > > I can empathize with the oppressed because of my own background and that > of my > people. Poland did not exist for 150 years. My great-grandmother ran an > underground schoolhouse where she taught children how to read and write > Polish under the Czarist > threat of being shot for doing so. [Ironically, I translate Russian into > English.] My parents grew up in a ghetto in Chicago during the Great > Depression where they usually had no food to eat. My Dad had the 'white > man's privilege' of doing four beach heads in the Pacific during WWII. > While on Okinawa he received a letter from my mom trying to raise his > spirits by telling him > that his parents would have heat during the winter because they took wood > planks from > a condemned building during the night to burn in their wood stove > (scavenging was against > the law). After the war my dad was a factory worker, when I was 13 he died > from a > bad aortic heart valve (rheumatic fever when he was 7 - he should never > have > been drafted). My parents never attended high school - I worked my way to > a Ph.D. > from the University of Chicago. No one told me to learn Russian or > translate Vygotsky, > I figured that out myself. > > I know my opinions are not in line with a lot of the 'group think' that > goes on > among some XMCARs. But one of my former students is an XMCAR who has never > posted on a thread, so I figure there are other XMCARs reading our threads > who > might appreciate some alternate perspectives. > > Also Annalisa, I really appreciate the way you give serious consideration > to my > comments. And I think you deserve a lot of credit for these threads moving > forward > into new emerging perspectives. > > > > > From: annalisa@unm.edu > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 00:04:00 +0000 > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > Hi Francine, > > > > I don't think I disagree with you. > > > > Certainly there are biological reasons involved as well, but is the lack > of prefrontal cortical activity a cause of or is it an effect of oppression? > > > > Aren't we looking at the genesis of oppression? or more specifically how > oppression is taught? The pedagogy? The ethical reasons are always clear > that we do not want it. > > > > I believe the way you speak about it is "from the outside." I am saying > that from a place of care, not of criticism. > > > > Speaking "from the outside" makes it hard to understand what is > happening in the minds of those "from the inside," and reminds me of > telling a pregnant teen she should have used birth control or abstinence. > > > > I don't mean to be antagonistic by saying that. > > > > Without legitimizing the acts of oppressors, we must understand how they > are taught, right? It is for me an examination of their subjectivity. What > is it like for them? Why do they want to oppress? What is their motivation? > What are their feeling lives like? Why do they believe oppression is the > only option? > > > > Otherwise, there is no answer as to the "why" that "individuals" > surrender their self-responsbility to the "group." > > > > It may be difficult to empathize with the other, but I don't know any > other way to face the problem. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Jan 5 21:52:41 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 22:52:41 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <1420501483459.21608@unm.edu> Message-ID: Larry, Yes, I am very much interested in finding what Manjali has done since his 1998 article. And yes, I I will look into his new book: Labyrinths of Language. From my background, I see this as connected to the LRH, Linguistic Relativity Hypothesis. At the same time, I don?t want to lose touch with the issue raised in the final paragraph of the article you posted on Jan 2, wherein the issues of language acquisiton and usage-based grammar are raised. IMHO we are engaged in efforts to scaffold discourse adequate to the current chat: Pedagogy of the Oppressors. In that sense, language acquisition is a collaborative, creative and life-long process. In fact, I am terribly interested in the application of a semiotically-based linguistics to ANY thread. I see all of our threads as instantiations of dialog of that, potentially, serve as models of dialog in the larger world. And, I am always thinking of the work of Vera in her work on creativity and creative collaboration. Social dreaming that allows for cognitive pluralism. I go on too long here. But YES! Henry > On Jan 5, 2015, at 6:45 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > Henry, > > Franson Manjali's 5 page summary I thought was a wonderful summary of where > we have been in exploring the relations among language, cognition, and > *mind*. I felt each paragraph could be expanded into a different thread > to be explored. With the guidance [and leadership] of others on this list > [with more understanding of linguistics within anthropology and psychology] > I hope we may possibly read shared articles on this theme. > Or alternatively, I could *listen in* as others more informed on this topic > have an ongoing conversation on these topics. > > In those 5 pages Franson moved historically through an expansive > historically effective horizon f understanding. How do I now *enter* this > fascinating realm with my limited background. I was able to follow each > paragraph of the article [read as individual events] because of my > previous readings and conversations playing out on this listserve. > > The reason I posted this article *as a primer* was the way Franson > *traced* the development of the evolving *dialogue* over a hundred year > epoch. I wanted to share his way of com-posing a historical interweaving > scholarship as his way of linking these linguistic theories as a > conversation. A historically developing story that led him to his summary > statement. > > If others wanted to follow your suggestion to look deeply into his summary > statement I would be willing to contact Franson and explore if he has > pursued his own recommendation. Maybe he even has an article he would share > with us. > He has a new book out "Labyrinths of Language* which is an anthology of > articles he has written. > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 4:35 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Larry and y?all, >> Way back three days ago Larry posted the following under the subject >> heading Primer of ?A Primer of Culture and Semantics?: >> >> "To others who like myself do not have a background in linguistics, I offer >> a very short 5 page essay that summarizes concisely the exploration of >> semantics within culture and language and cognition studies in the last >> century.? >> >> Heres?s the link Larry provided: >> http://www.revue-texto.net/Inedits/Manjali_Culture.html < >> http://www.revue-texto.net/Inedits/Manjali_Culture.html> >> >> I am wondering if metaphor and embodied cognition, as per the work of >> Lakoff and others, might be considered of use in the current thread. >> Oppression has the hallmarks of of a generative metaphor and this thread, >> oppression, and a way out of the opression itself might be fruitfully >> construed in the light of dialog/discourse analysis. Of especial interest >> to me is the final paragraph of the article: >> >> "It may be concluded from the above deliberations that after defining the >> basic premises of Cognitive Grammar (Langacker 1987, Lakoff 1987), mainly >> on the basis of earlier works on natural categorisation in psychology >> (Rosch), anthropological linguistics (Berlin and Kay), philosophy >> (Wittgenstein) and sociolinguistics (Labov), cognitive linguists turned to >> issues which had been the main object of linguistic inquiry before the >> advent of generative theory. Langacker (1991) offered a number of analyses >> of different linguistic phenomena utilising the earlier defined notions and >> premises of cognitive linguistics. It has become necessary to verify >> theoretical constructs and predictions in terms of new empirical data. Two >> areas of research seem to be particularly promising in this context: >> cognitive analysis of discourse (Langacker 1999, Langacker 2001) and >> cognitive description of the language acquisition processes. Both of these >> research domains offer massive corpora of unidealized, raw linguistic data. >> Attempts to describe discourse may serve to demonstrate how linguistic >> knowledge is utilised by real users in real context, while attempts aimed >> at describing the process of language acquisition may demonstrate how this >> knowledge is really shaped in contextualised grammatical ontogenesis under >> the pressure of various mental and environmental factors. On the other >> hand, Langacker?s (2000) dynamic usage-based model may well provide a more >> adequate framework for an insightful and comprehensive description of the >> mechanisms of language acquisition. The future of cognitively motivated >> research on language acquisition seems to be promising." >> >> Just wondering. >> >> Henry >> >> >>> On Jan 5, 2015, at 4:44 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> Larry and others, >>> >>> I am interested in "structures of feeling." Would you recommend anything >> in particular by Williams? >>> >>> I think I am with you (if this is what you are saying) that a vocabulary >> of sensing and feeling are important and frequently overlooked or swept >> under the carpet as if feeling were proof of weakness and not of humanity. >>> >>> Also please recommend any reading by Levinas? >>> >>> Thank you for your additions to the soup. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >> >> From helenaworthen@gmail.com Mon Jan 5 21:55:01 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 21:55:01 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: This discussion of an opposition between individualism and collectivism sounds like something out of the 1950s, when "individuals" were viewed as heroic if they stood up to "conformity." The demonstrations in Ferguson could just as well be seen as evidence of a collective resistance to oppression, not individualism. Labor law provides for collective action because the power relationships of the workplace are so unequal that unless people work together to protect themselves, they are helpless. The language in which this right is named is as follows: "Concerted activity for mutual aid and protection." This language goes back to the earliest labor legislation in the US, the Norris-LaGuardia Act of 1932. It simply means that if you are doing something alone, by yourself, as an individual, to better yourself, you are unprotected and your employer can retaliate against you. If you are doing something with other people -- which means that you have done the work of talking with them and you agree about what you're doing -- then your employer cannot retaliate against you for doing it. This is the most basic, bottom-level piece of labor law in the US. Every time someone at work speaks out against something dangerous or cruel or insulting, and does it with other people -- not as a lone individual, but as part of a group, which would include their union but doesn't have to -- they are invoking this right. That's a completely different view of "collectivism" than what people have been bringing up on this list. When I look at YouTube videos (or on Vice) to see the young people moving around on the streets in Ferguson, I see concerted activity. Same here in Berkeley, where there have been numerous demonstrations including blocking I-80. I am glad they're doing it and I respect them for it. Various labor commentators, by the way, have excoriated the police union for their behavior toward Mayor DeBlasio and other old NY unions for their failure to speak out against police killings of unarmed black men. Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Jan 5, 2015, at 8:16 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Just to show how complicated the issue is there is also a countervailing ideology of collectivism. The thin blue line remains very much a phenomenon that is having a big impact on New York City today. This is years after Frank Serpico who points to this ideology among the police 40 years after he was pretty much destroyed because he spoke out against this idea of a single police force. > > A recent article he wrote > > http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/10/the-police-are-still-out-of-control-112160.html#.VKtgLCvF-Fw > > > Most individuals go along to get along, even when it is against their own interests. Police for instance are safer when they have relationships in the communities. The police in New York would be far better off if they admitted that Eric Garner was killed by the unwarranted actions of the policeperson. But that isn't part of their culture - they learn instead to protect their "way of life." They believe protecting their culture is in some ways protecting themselves. So you look at Ferguson and you see the ideology of individualism. You look at New York and you see the ideology of collectivism. Perhaps it is not that we can't find answers. Perhaps it is that we are asking the wrong questions. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Greg Thompson [greg.a.thompson@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 10:32 PM > To: vygotsky@unm.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Vera, > Yes, I fear that people on both sides of the political aisle have been > influenced by an ideology of individualism in their interpretations of the > recent police violence against African-American men. On the political > right, this is interpreted as a case of a few bad cops and hence not a > serious problem. On the political left, this is interpreted as a case of > white racist cops (really just another version of the "a few bad cops" > theory). > > I think both perspectives miss the point of structural/institutional (and > hence hidden) racism and the context of policing that preceded these > instances. > > There is a wonderful book out that explores some of the background context > that was subsequent to (and consequent to) these instances and which is > crucially important for what happened in those cases. The book is Matt > Taibbi's Divide: American Injustice in the Age of the Wealth Gap. > > The one sentence explanation: new policing policies target certain > communities (poor and typically black) and subject persons in those > communities to arrests for things such as "obstructing pedestrian traffic" > - even for standing in front of their own home (anyone on the list serve > ever been arrested for standing in front of your home?). > > I would highly recommend this radio interview with Taibbi about this book: > http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/americas-justice-divide > > And I am happy to hear that Alice Goffman's book is being read. I recall > meeting her earlier on in her career and she was a bit anxious about her > work (and frustrated by others' fascination with her pedigree which she > felt distracted from her work, which, imho, is absolutely remarkable > ethnographic work). Anyway, I'd second her book as an excellent source for > anyone wanting to learn more about what life is like for African-American > men living in poverty in the inner-city. > > -greg > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 11:27 PM, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > >> I agree with Greg that the problem we face when confronting oppression is >> the ideology of individualism. In discussions about Ferguson and related >> events we are frequently told that police brutality is due to a few bad >> cops. But what we are faced with is a system of oppression that has been >> hidden from public view but is deeply and painfully experienced by members >> of many poor African-American communities. A recent book by Alice Goffman ( >> a sociologist as was her famous father) entitled On the Run describes her >> experiences in a Philadelphia Black community where she lived for six years >> while both an undergraduate and graduate student. I only read extensive >> interviews with her (waiting for the book) in which she detailed >> the incessant harassment and persecution of young Black men as well as the >> oppression of their mothers, partners etc. How are future members of the >> police taught and socialized to carry out these acts? I am not sure, but >> there is a pedagogy involved in turning these future cops into oppressors. >> And there are many structural reasons why in our current society we want >> to jail rather than create employment for young men who may have done >> nothing or misbehaved in ways for which young white men would experience a >> slap on the wrist. I do agree that a start was made by members of the >> Frankfurt school in trying to explore some psychological features of >> oppression under Nazi rule. But not much else has been done since then >> about the socialization that turns na?ve youth into occupying soldiers, >> cops or prison guards. It is a grim topic and though I thought I wanted to >> pursue it, I did not have Alice Goffman's courage and determination. And >> thus choosing avoidance I,too, am an accessory to oppression. >> >> Vera >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces+vygotsky=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces+vygotsky=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg >> Thompson >> Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 9:12 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? >> >> Francis, >> I too try for an approach of (viral?) immanent critique. I think that >> there are situations where people will "get it" (or maybe "get infected by >> it"), but I particularly sympathize with your day-by-day worries that I'm >> not doing enough and that I should be taking more radical action. But I >> also recall the words of a mentor of mine, feminist scholar and philosopher >> of education Audrey Thompson, who used to point out the importance of >> carrying out a work on multiple levels - some more radical than others but >> all are necessary for change to happen (e.g., Malcolm X and MLK). Still not >> sure I'm convinced of that (if not now, when? if not you, who? and all >> that...), but it's where I'm at. >> >> The overwhelmingly white and mostly middle-class students I confront have >> very good hearts and are often quite interested in this project of >> "liberating the oppressed" (a phrasing that still makes me nervous - >> Perhaps because it seems overly ambitious, or perhaps because it smacks of >> paternalism, but for both reasons I think it is a propos for describing >> what my students are up to). The problem is that my students seem to think >> in ways that are ideologically individualistic. These students can't see >> beyond psychological thinking in which individuals are entirely responsible >> for all that they think and do. They can't see how anything beyond the >> individual could have much relevance to the individual, much less how it >> could play a constitutive role. They are entirely taken by the myth of >> individual will and see the task of liberation of the oppressed to be a >> simple task of educating the oppressed to be more willful in their efforts >> to succeed in an (assumedly) meritocratic system. As a result, they throw >> all their energies behind projects that are doomed to fail in terms of >> accomplishing what they want to accomplish, i.e., "helping" other people. >> >> So, for me, a pedagogy of the oppressors (which, is, in part to say, the >> focus of my own re-search and education) is a pedagogy that can help >> liberate these students from an individualistic ideology (and following >> Michael G, this is not to say that there is anything wrong with people >> thinking as individuals - the problem lies with the ideology of >> individualism). And yes, here is where I see the approach of CHAT to be >> really remarkably useful precisely AS a pedagogy of the oppressor. CHAT >> offers a way of appreciating the role of context in the ongoing >> constitution of individuals. That seems useful. Perhaps even liberating... >> >> cheers, >> greg >> >> p.s. One recent TED talk I came across that I find useful (particularly >> for those students of mine who are interested in international development, >> of which I have a fair number) is Sirolli's talk titled "Want to Help >> Someone: >> Shut Up and Listen": >> >> http://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_listen >> >> The talk and Sirolli's approach leave a lot to be desired, but I sincerely >> appreciate the sentiment "if you want to help someone, shut up and listen", >> and I have found this to be useful to get students to actually begin to >> realize that the world may be bigger (and perhaps badder) than they had >> previously imagined. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 6:16 PM, FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN >> wrote: >> >>> Wow, this is a great thread, one I think about all the time, as one of >>> the oppressors. Not by choice, as I see this as a structural, or >>> rather a "positional" category, akin to the workings of power in terms >>> of one's relationship to the means of production. I can still recall >>> Horkheimer and Adorno's anecdote in *Dialectic of Enlightenment*, one >>> the ways that the songs of the Sirens went unheard by Odysseus' >>> crew--as he had stoppered their ears--yet remained useless to Odysseus >> as he was lashed to the mast. >>> So, I certainly agree that we need a pedagogy of the oppressors as a >>> complement to that of the oppressed. I always thought that was the >>> major effort of the Frankfurt School. >>> As someone who teaches secondary school pre-service teachers, I am >>> quite aware of my structural position as an "officer of the State." I >>> was in the middle of revising my syllabi for the upcoming semester >>> when I saw this thread emerge. The advent of the corporate reform of >>> schooling called Common Core poses a fundamental threat to the >>> democratic roots of education in the US, yet I can neither ignore it >>> nor simply trash it. The students I prepare must be able to address >>> the Core if they are to have a career at all. So, for better or worse, >>> I find the best resistance to be the tightest embrace of the >>> "principles" embedded in the Core, an embrace that, I hope, lets me >>> transform them into a useful and useable critique of the Core itself. >>> So, this semester, we examine "speaking" and "writing" standards in >>> terms of dialect, code, and register differences. We develop lessons >>> and units in which high school students grapple with the reality of >>> "code-switching," and the choices one can make to successfully >>> navigate speech and writing situations defined by conflicting purposes >> and relational hierarchies. >>> >>> Of course, all this is news to my students, almost all of whom are >>> white and middle-class, and most of whom are male. So, I approach >>> these topics by emphasizing that learners develop best when teaching >>> meets them where they are and builds on what they know. I choose texts >>> that de-emphasize the kinds of oppression that plays out in the lives >>> of urban students. So, where does someone like me fit in this mosaic? >>> Are we "leading the resistance from behind; or allowing ourselves to >>> be co-opted?" My answer to that changes at least weekly, sometimes >>> daily. I can only say that I'm doing what I can. >>> >>> Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. >>> Associate Professor >>> Department of Teaching and Learning >>> College of Education >>> Temple University >>> Philadelphia, PA 19122 >>> >>> >>> Find out what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact >>> measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. >>> >>> Frederick Douglass >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> >>>> I am peeling off from the old thread to begin a new thread! >>>> >>>> >>>> Our inquiry hear appears to be: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? >>>> >>>> >>>> I suggest "a" and not "the" because there could be more than one, >> surely? >>>> >>>> >>>> For new arrivers to this thread, it commenced from this thread here: >>>> >>>> http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848 >>>> >>>> >>>> With its genesis here, thanks to Greg! >>>> >>>> http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848?keywords=#52332? >>>> >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Jan 5 22:10:41 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 22:10:41 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <1420501483459.21608@unm.edu> Message-ID: Henry, I sent a quick invitation to Franson and we will see what unfolds. I hope his university email address is current. Larry On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 9:52 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Larry, > Yes, I am very much interested in finding what Manjali has done since his > 1998 article. And yes, I I will look into his new book: Labyrinths of > Language. From my background, I see this as connected to the LRH, > Linguistic Relativity Hypothesis. At the same time, I don?t want to lose > touch with the issue raised in the final paragraph of the article you > posted on Jan 2, wherein the issues of language acquisiton and usage-based > grammar are raised. IMHO we are engaged in efforts to scaffold discourse > adequate to the current chat: Pedagogy of the Oppressors. In that sense, > language acquisition is a collaborative, creative and life-long process. In > fact, I am terribly interested in the application of a semiotically-based > linguistics to ANY thread. I see all of our threads as instantiations of > dialog of that, potentially, serve as models of dialog in the larger world. > And, I am always thinking of the work of Vera in her work on creativity and > creative collaboration. Social dreaming that allows for cognitive > pluralism. I go on too long here. But YES! > Henry > > > > On Jan 5, 2015, at 6:45 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > Henry, > > > > Franson Manjali's 5 page summary I thought was a wonderful summary of > where > > we have been in exploring the relations among language, cognition, and > > *mind*. I felt each paragraph could be expanded into a different thread > > to be explored. With the guidance [and leadership] of others on this > list > > [with more understanding of linguistics within anthropology and > psychology] > > I hope we may possibly read shared articles on this theme. > > Or alternatively, I could *listen in* as others more informed on this > topic > > have an ongoing conversation on these topics. > > > > In those 5 pages Franson moved historically through an expansive > > historically effective horizon f understanding. How do I now *enter* > this > > fascinating realm with my limited background. I was able to follow each > > paragraph of the article [read as individual events] because of my > > previous readings and conversations playing out on this listserve. > > > > The reason I posted this article *as a primer* was the way Franson > > *traced* the development of the evolving *dialogue* over a hundred year > > epoch. I wanted to share his way of com-posing a historical interweaving > > scholarship as his way of linking these linguistic theories as a > > conversation. A historically developing story that led him to his summary > > statement. > > > > If others wanted to follow your suggestion to look deeply into his > summary > > statement I would be willing to contact Franson and explore if he has > > pursued his own recommendation. Maybe he even has an article he would > share > > with us. > > He has a new book out "Labyrinths of Language* which is an anthology of > > articles he has written. > > > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 4:35 PM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > >> Larry and y?all, > >> Way back three days ago Larry posted the following under the subject > >> heading Primer of ?A Primer of Culture and Semantics?: > >> > >> "To others who like myself do not have a background in linguistics, I > offer > >> a very short 5 page essay that summarizes concisely the exploration of > >> semantics within culture and language and cognition studies in the last > >> century.? > >> > >> Heres?s the link Larry provided: > >> http://www.revue-texto.net/Inedits/Manjali_Culture.html < > >> http://www.revue-texto.net/Inedits/Manjali_Culture.html> > >> > >> I am wondering if metaphor and embodied cognition, as per the work of > >> Lakoff and others, might be considered of use in the current thread. > >> Oppression has the hallmarks of of a generative metaphor and this > thread, > >> oppression, and a way out of the opression itself might be fruitfully > >> construed in the light of dialog/discourse analysis. Of especial > interest > >> to me is the final paragraph of the article: > >> > >> "It may be concluded from the above deliberations that after defining > the > >> basic premises of Cognitive Grammar (Langacker 1987, Lakoff 1987), > mainly > >> on the basis of earlier works on natural categorisation in psychology > >> (Rosch), anthropological linguistics (Berlin and Kay), philosophy > >> (Wittgenstein) and sociolinguistics (Labov), cognitive linguists turned > to > >> issues which had been the main object of linguistic inquiry before the > >> advent of generative theory. Langacker (1991) offered a number of > analyses > >> of different linguistic phenomena utilising the earlier defined notions > and > >> premises of cognitive linguistics. It has become necessary to verify > >> theoretical constructs and predictions in terms of new empirical data. > Two > >> areas of research seem to be particularly promising in this context: > >> cognitive analysis of discourse (Langacker 1999, Langacker 2001) and > >> cognitive description of the language acquisition processes. Both of > these > >> research domains offer massive corpora of unidealized, raw linguistic > data. > >> Attempts to describe discourse may serve to demonstrate how linguistic > >> knowledge is utilised by real users in real context, while attempts > aimed > >> at describing the process of language acquisition may demonstrate how > this > >> knowledge is really shaped in contextualised grammatical ontogenesis > under > >> the pressure of various mental and environmental factors. On the other > >> hand, Langacker?s (2000) dynamic usage-based model may well provide a > more > >> adequate framework for an insightful and comprehensive description of > the > >> mechanisms of language acquisition. The future of cognitively motivated > >> research on language acquisition seems to be promising." > >> > >> Just wondering. > >> > >> Henry > >> > >> > >>> On Jan 5, 2015, at 4:44 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >>> > >>> Larry and others, > >>> > >>> I am interested in "structures of feeling." Would you recommend > anything > >> in particular by Williams? > >>> > >>> I think I am with you (if this is what you are saying) that a > vocabulary > >> of sensing and feeling are important and frequently overlooked or swept > >> under the carpet as if feeling were proof of weakness and not of > humanity. > >>> > >>> Also please recommend any reading by Levinas? > >>> > >>> Thank you for your additions to the soup. > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> > >>> Annalisa > >>> > >> > >> > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Jan 5 22:20:33 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 23:20:33 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <1420501483459.21608@unm.edu> Message-ID: Excellent! > On Jan 5, 2015, at 11:10 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > Henry, I sent a quick invitation to Franson and we will see what unfolds. I > hope his university email address is current. > Larry > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 9:52 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Larry, >> Yes, I am very much interested in finding what Manjali has done since his >> 1998 article. And yes, I I will look into his new book: Labyrinths of >> Language. From my background, I see this as connected to the LRH, >> Linguistic Relativity Hypothesis. At the same time, I don?t want to lose >> touch with the issue raised in the final paragraph of the article you >> posted on Jan 2, wherein the issues of language acquisiton and usage-based >> grammar are raised. IMHO we are engaged in efforts to scaffold discourse >> adequate to the current chat: Pedagogy of the Oppressors. In that sense, >> language acquisition is a collaborative, creative and life-long process. In >> fact, I am terribly interested in the application of a semiotically-based >> linguistics to ANY thread. I see all of our threads as instantiations of >> dialog of that, potentially, serve as models of dialog in the larger world. >> And, I am always thinking of the work of Vera in her work on creativity and >> creative collaboration. Social dreaming that allows for cognitive >> pluralism. I go on too long here. But YES! >> Henry >> >> >>> On Jan 5, 2015, at 6:45 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>> Henry, >>> >>> Franson Manjali's 5 page summary I thought was a wonderful summary of >> where >>> we have been in exploring the relations among language, cognition, and >>> *mind*. I felt each paragraph could be expanded into a different thread >>> to be explored. With the guidance [and leadership] of others on this >> list >>> [with more understanding of linguistics within anthropology and >> psychology] >>> I hope we may possibly read shared articles on this theme. >>> Or alternatively, I could *listen in* as others more informed on this >> topic >>> have an ongoing conversation on these topics. >>> >>> In those 5 pages Franson moved historically through an expansive >>> historically effective horizon f understanding. How do I now *enter* >> this >>> fascinating realm with my limited background. I was able to follow each >>> paragraph of the article [read as individual events] because of my >>> previous readings and conversations playing out on this listserve. >>> >>> The reason I posted this article *as a primer* was the way Franson >>> *traced* the development of the evolving *dialogue* over a hundred year >>> epoch. I wanted to share his way of com-posing a historical interweaving >>> scholarship as his way of linking these linguistic theories as a >>> conversation. A historically developing story that led him to his summary >>> statement. >>> >>> If others wanted to follow your suggestion to look deeply into his >> summary >>> statement I would be willing to contact Franson and explore if he has >>> pursued his own recommendation. Maybe he even has an article he would >> share >>> with us. >>> He has a new book out "Labyrinths of Language* which is an anthology of >>> articles he has written. >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 4:35 PM, HENRY SHONERD >> wrote: >>> >>>> Larry and y?all, >>>> Way back three days ago Larry posted the following under the subject >>>> heading Primer of ?A Primer of Culture and Semantics?: >>>> >>>> "To others who like myself do not have a background in linguistics, I >> offer >>>> a very short 5 page essay that summarizes concisely the exploration of >>>> semantics within culture and language and cognition studies in the last >>>> century.? >>>> >>>> Heres?s the link Larry provided: >>>> http://www.revue-texto.net/Inedits/Manjali_Culture.html < >>>> http://www.revue-texto.net/Inedits/Manjali_Culture.html> >>>> >>>> I am wondering if metaphor and embodied cognition, as per the work of >>>> Lakoff and others, might be considered of use in the current thread. >>>> Oppression has the hallmarks of of a generative metaphor and this >> thread, >>>> oppression, and a way out of the opression itself might be fruitfully >>>> construed in the light of dialog/discourse analysis. Of especial >> interest >>>> to me is the final paragraph of the article: >>>> >>>> "It may be concluded from the above deliberations that after defining >> the >>>> basic premises of Cognitive Grammar (Langacker 1987, Lakoff 1987), >> mainly >>>> on the basis of earlier works on natural categorisation in psychology >>>> (Rosch), anthropological linguistics (Berlin and Kay), philosophy >>>> (Wittgenstein) and sociolinguistics (Labov), cognitive linguists turned >> to >>>> issues which had been the main object of linguistic inquiry before the >>>> advent of generative theory. Langacker (1991) offered a number of >> analyses >>>> of different linguistic phenomena utilising the earlier defined notions >> and >>>> premises of cognitive linguistics. It has become necessary to verify >>>> theoretical constructs and predictions in terms of new empirical data. >> Two >>>> areas of research seem to be particularly promising in this context: >>>> cognitive analysis of discourse (Langacker 1999, Langacker 2001) and >>>> cognitive description of the language acquisition processes. Both of >> these >>>> research domains offer massive corpora of unidealized, raw linguistic >> data. >>>> Attempts to describe discourse may serve to demonstrate how linguistic >>>> knowledge is utilised by real users in real context, while attempts >> aimed >>>> at describing the process of language acquisition may demonstrate how >> this >>>> knowledge is really shaped in contextualised grammatical ontogenesis >> under >>>> the pressure of various mental and environmental factors. On the other >>>> hand, Langacker?s (2000) dynamic usage-based model may well provide a >> more >>>> adequate framework for an insightful and comprehensive description of >> the >>>> mechanisms of language acquisition. The future of cognitively motivated >>>> research on language acquisition seems to be promising." >>>> >>>> Just wondering. >>>> >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jan 5, 2015, at 4:44 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Larry and others, >>>>> >>>>> I am interested in "structures of feeling." Would you recommend >> anything >>>> in particular by Williams? >>>>> >>>>> I think I am with you (if this is what you are saying) that a >> vocabulary >>>> of sensing and feeling are important and frequently overlooked or swept >>>> under the carpet as if feeling were proof of weakness and not of >> humanity. >>>>> >>>>> Also please recommend any reading by Levinas? >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for your additions to the soup. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Mon Jan 5 22:31:05 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 00:31:05 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , , , , , <1420502639918.23719@unm.edu>, , Message-ID: Message from Francine: Larry et al Regarding the development of prefrontal 'executive' functions, all the things you mention warrant consideration. The best resource I have found is Joaquin Furster's book The Prefrontal Cortex (Academic Press 2009). I will read through it to see how neuroscience research can inform our discussion. And I just now ordered another book The Neurobiology of the Prefrontal Cortex by Passingham and Wise (Oxford University Press 2014). Neuroscientists continue to refer to the prefrontal cortex as if it was one area of the brain, when in fact there is a left and a right prefrontal cortex (thus prefrontal cortices). I will bet that the issues you are raising have a lot to do with the executive functioning of the right prefrontal cortex. The left prefrontal would surely provide verbal guidance of behavior, emotions, and thought processes (because the speech center is usually in the left). [Note: left and right prefrontal cortices do not communicate directly with each other]. My guess is that the right hemisphere regulates the seemingly automated behavior when you are driving a car, while you are talking to someone (or talking to yourself). > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 21:44:51 -0800 > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Francine, > > I would like to have you expand on your comment: > > >From a Vygotsky-Luria perspective the development of the prefrontal > cortical connections > with the rest of the brain is the result of the internalization of the > verbal guidance > of a more knowledgeable person. > I am not questioning the notion of internalization of *guidance* of more > knowledgeable persons. > My question is not questioning the major influence of *verbal guidance* > My question concerns your use of *is* verbal guidance as possibly > bracketing out other means of guidance that may have been critical to the > development of the prefrontal cortex. > In other words other communicational forms of guidance. For example > processes such as *gestural guidance* which becomes internalized that is > prelinguistic. > My question relates to the exploration of theories of *felt structures* of > intersubjective social phenomena. > Developmentally the extension of this *gestural guidance* through verbal > thinking was a central increase in prefrontal cortex development, but I > wonder if the human capacity for *sound* gestures as *guidance* that become > internalized is also a central phenomena. > > The kind of work Rod Parker is re-searching and scholars such as Daniel > Stern. Recognizing that verbal thought is the most complex and > transformative human phenomena that moves inward and becomes internalized > as self regulation. However, I wonder if the growth of the pre-frontal > cortex is also implicated in other levels of *social intersubjective > guidance* which also become internalized as "felt structures" that are > preconceptual social phenomena. The notion that *verbal thinking* is the > most highly developed and very complex type of gesturing which becomes > internalized along with other modes of gesturing guidance which also become > internalized. > > Do Vygotsky and Luria hypothesize that it is the specific > developmental moment of interweaving when thinking becomes verbal that > leads to an explosion of the prefrontal cortex. I wonder if this moment is > an extension of a more primary *gestural guidance* that Vygotsky explores > in chapter 4 on the genetic roots of verbal thought. > > Vygotsky mentioned in chapter 4 that *verbal thought* is *circumscribed* > and therefore I wonder if thinking [that is not verbal] AND communicating > [which is not conceptual] also play some formative role as other social > multi-modal functions which also resulted in precortical development. Yes > social communication phenomena, but not bracketing *verbal thinking* as the > only internalized process of self-regulation > > I hope I am asking a clear question? I recognize this line of > questioning may need to move to another thread. > > Thanks Francine for the opportunity to chat > Larry > > Larry > > > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 7:10 PM, larry smolucha > wrote: > > > Message from Francine: > > > > Annalisa et al, > > > > In regard to the development of the prefrontal cortex: > > This is an important area of research in contemporary neuroscience > > that > > arose directly out of Vygotsky and Luria's collaboration (especially, from > > the last > > two years of Vygotsky's life when both he and Luria were attending medical > > school). > > >From a Vygotsky-Luria perspective the development of the prefrontal > > cortical connections > > with the rest of the brain is the result of the internalization of the > > verbal guidance > > of a more knowledgeable person. For social or neurological reasons this > > might > > not occur. Also, chemical agents (such as drinking and smoking pot) as a > > preteen > > or teen can interfere in the last critical stages of prefrontal > > development. > > Without internal self-guidance, one needs the guidance of another person > > or a group > > (hopefully that other person or group is a good influence). > > > > In regard, to my speaking "from the outside" that certainly is true. > > Many XMCARs know that I am not an advocate of Leontiev's Activity Theory or > > of CHAT. But I am an advocate of Vygotskian theory and Luria's > > neuroscience. > > So we share an interest in Vygotsky's writings. > > > > Also, I am not a person of color. Politically, I am an independent -not a > > liberal, > > not a conservative. I admire people like Christopher Hitchens who could > > think > > for themselves and called things as they saw it. > > > > I can empathize with the oppressed because of my own background and that > > of my > > people. Poland did not exist for 150 years. My great-grandmother ran an > > underground schoolhouse where she taught children how to read and write > > Polish under the Czarist > > threat of being shot for doing so. [Ironically, I translate Russian into > > English.] My parents grew up in a ghetto in Chicago during the Great > > Depression where they usually had no food to eat. My Dad had the 'white > > man's privilege' of doing four beach heads in the Pacific during WWII. > > While on Okinawa he received a letter from my mom trying to raise his > > spirits by telling him > > that his parents would have heat during the winter because they took wood > > planks from > > a condemned building during the night to burn in their wood stove > > (scavenging was against > > the law). After the war my dad was a factory worker, when I was 13 he died > > from a > > bad aortic heart valve (rheumatic fever when he was 7 - he should never > > have > > been drafted). My parents never attended high school - I worked my way to > > a Ph.D. > > from the University of Chicago. No one told me to learn Russian or > > translate Vygotsky, > > I figured that out myself. > > > > I know my opinions are not in line with a lot of the 'group think' that > > goes on > > among some XMCARs. But one of my former students is an XMCAR who has never > > posted on a thread, so I figure there are other XMCARs reading our threads > > who > > might appreciate some alternate perspectives. > > > > Also Annalisa, I really appreciate the way you give serious consideration > > to my > > comments. And I think you deserve a lot of credit for these threads moving > > forward > > into new emerging perspectives. > > > > > > > > > From: annalisa@unm.edu > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 00:04:00 +0000 > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > > > Hi Francine, > > > > > > I don't think I disagree with you. > > > > > > Certainly there are biological reasons involved as well, but is the lack > > of prefrontal cortical activity a cause of or is it an effect of oppression? > > > > > > Aren't we looking at the genesis of oppression? or more specifically how > > oppression is taught? The pedagogy? The ethical reasons are always clear > > that we do not want it. > > > > > > I believe the way you speak about it is "from the outside." I am saying > > that from a place of care, not of criticism. > > > > > > Speaking "from the outside" makes it hard to understand what is > > happening in the minds of those "from the inside," and reminds me of > > telling a pregnant teen she should have used birth control or abstinence. > > > > > > I don't mean to be antagonistic by saying that. > > > > > > Without legitimizing the acts of oppressors, we must understand how they > > are taught, right? It is for me an examination of their subjectivity. What > > is it like for them? Why do they want to oppress? What is their motivation? > > What are their feeling lives like? Why do they believe oppression is the > > only option? > > > > > > Otherwise, there is no answer as to the "why" that "individuals" > > surrender their self-responsbility to the "group." > > > > > > It may be difficult to empathize with the other, but I don't know any > > other way to face the problem. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jan 5 22:34:26 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 06:34:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, Message-ID: <1420526065605.74704@unm.edu> Hello to anyone who is listening: I have some questions: First would someone explain to me what is the ideology of individualism? I would like to be clear on that because I find it very confusing. And I've not hear that term in quite that way. I know in the US there is a particularly strange strain called "the rugged individual," and a really good rendering of that is in Lakoff's Moral Politics: How Liberals and Conservatives Think. In any case I can't fit this concept into the puzzle of a pedagogy of oppression, because oppression is not done alone. Certainly violence can be done alone upon another, but getting away with it is not by the will of an individual, and as far as I know we are not in a monarchy or dictatorship. What confuses me about Ferguson is that even if it were "bad apples" (I'm not saying it was), these "bad apples" are not being held accountable. This logic reminds me of the 2008 financial meltdown. Second, am I the only one who sees that the language of emotion is completely absent from talking about this? Can we get more cerebral about it? I don't think waiting for the moment Walter Cronkite cries is going to do it (and besides he is long gone from us). Let me clarify that I'm not talking about those who speak on this list, but rather how it is represented "out there." The African-American community is hurting and justifiably so. What bothers me a lot is how emotional pain is made into a spectacle as if to legitimize the wildness and craziness of "those people." I find that an outrage. We have to start understanding the language of pain and stop being embarrassed about speaking words that show feeling and care as if it were bad manners. And if it is bad manners, so what? What are we, Edwardians on Downton Abbey? Being human, we all have our share of suffering, and I think perhaps what can block me is when I feel compelled to compare my suffering with another's as if there were a prize for who suffered the least or who suffered more. I think that is perhaps the wrong way to think about this because it doesn't go very far. For me the point is regarding someone in pain and if I the opportunity to show care. That of course can be done in many ways and the way one chooses is clearly determined by the moment. I think this is important: We cannot plan how to act in every circumstance according to some kind of algorithm, as if there is only one right with many wrong ways to behave in the face of these difficult facts. So there is (for me) a need to remember that part of the problem is understanding how one feels and what one discovers is the best thing to do for oneself. This is determined by one's temperament, influence, etc. But if there were a single thing to do, it would be to show care. Certainly that is what the protests are about. What I'm trying to shine light on (but seem to be failing at generating discussion, maybe I'm wrong), is that to divorce the language into thought over in this bucket and emotion over in that bucket is the very tool that allows oppression and violence. This move is the first step in a pedagogy of oppression. This move is a move toward desensitization. Once that is complete, then the next move is to dehumanize the other. Once that is complete, it's all quite easy and goes downhill from there. What is disturbing is that at that threshold it starts to become quite sickening, and I don't want to really talk about the darkness of humanity, but instead how the first steps are made to dislocate our own inner workings to feel and to demonstrate care, especially in regard of another in pain. So the pedagogy of oppression begins in this way: 1) we dehumanize ourselves by desensitizing ourselves, which usually begins with hiding of feelings and the speaking of feelings. Including humiliating others for feeling what we ourselves feel. 2) we dehumanize the other. This is why I believe fairly strongly the strategy MUST BE to return the language of feeling and emotion that has been removed from common parlance. It is very difficult to proceed in acts of harm when one is tethered to the fact one is still a feeling, human being. Also, in case I'm not being understood, let me emphasize that I'm not saying we should all be hysterical and start gnashing teeth and tearing our hair, wailing to the heavens. I'm not saying let's abandon the intellect for the sake of the emotions. I'm saying we must reintegrate the emotions where they have been so surgically removed, from our prefrontal cortexes or otherwise, but mostly otherwise. It is so that we all might be whole people again. So? is anyone listening? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of larry smolucha Sent: Monday, January 5, 2015 9:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? Message from Francine: Michael, What do you imagine was 'going on' with the black woman who was the police sergeant who was there (and who was in charge) when Eric Garner was "killed by a policeperson." The officer who had Garner in a head lock was being supervised at that very moment by this African-American woman police sergeant (does she have a name?) - wouldn't she have to be charged with negligent manslaughter as well? > From: glassman.13@osu.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 04:16:40 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Just to show how complicated the issue is there is also a countervailing ideology of collectivism. The thin blue line remains very much a phenomenon that is having a big impact on New York City today. This is years after Frank Serpico who points to this ideology among the police 40 years after he was pretty much destroyed because he spoke out against this idea of a single police force. > > A recent article he wrote > > http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/10/the-police-are-still-out-of-control-112160.html#.VKtgLCvF-Fw > > > Most individuals go along to get along, even when it is against their own interests. Police for instance are safer when they have relationships in the communities. The police in New York would be far better off if they admitted that Eric Garner was killed by the unwarranted actions of the policeperson. But that isn't part of their culture - they learn instead to protect their "way of life." They believe protecting their culture is in some ways protecting themselves. So you look at Ferguson and you see the ideology of individualism. You look at New York and you see the ideology of collectivism. Perhaps it is not that we can't find answers. Perhaps it is that we are asking the wrong questions. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Greg Thompson [greg.a.thompson@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 10:32 PM > To: vygotsky@unm.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Vera, > Yes, I fear that people on both sides of the political aisle have been > influenced by an ideology of individualism in their interpretations of the > recent police violence against African-American men. On the political > right, this is interpreted as a case of a few bad cops and hence not a > serious problem. On the political left, this is interpreted as a case of > white racist cops (really just another version of the "a few bad cops" > theory). > > I think both perspectives miss the point of structural/institutional (and > hence hidden) racism and the context of policing that preceded these > instances. > > There is a wonderful book out that explores some of the background context > that was subsequent to (and consequent to) these instances and which is > crucially important for what happened in those cases. The book is Matt > Taibbi's Divide: American Injustice in the Age of the Wealth Gap. > > The one sentence explanation: new policing policies target certain > communities (poor and typically black) and subject persons in those > communities to arrests for things such as "obstructing pedestrian traffic" > - even for standing in front of their own home (anyone on the list serve > ever been arrested for standing in front of your home?). > > I would highly recommend this radio interview with Taibbi about this book: > http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/americas-justice-divide > > And I am happy to hear that Alice Goffman's book is being read. I recall > meeting her earlier on in her career and she was a bit anxious about her > work (and frustrated by others' fascination with her pedigree which she > felt distracted from her work, which, imho, is absolutely remarkable > ethnographic work). Anyway, I'd second her book as an excellent source for > anyone wanting to learn more about what life is like for African-American > men living in poverty in the inner-city. > > -greg > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 11:27 PM, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > > > I agree with Greg that the problem we face when confronting oppression is > > the ideology of individualism. In discussions about Ferguson and related > > events we are frequently told that police brutality is due to a few bad > > cops. But what we are faced with is a system of oppression that has been > > hidden from public view but is deeply and painfully experienced by members > > of many poor African-American communities. A recent book by Alice Goffman ( > > a sociologist as was her famous father) entitled On the Run describes her > > experiences in a Philadelphia Black community where she lived for six years > > while both an undergraduate and graduate student. I only read extensive > > interviews with her (waiting for the book) in which she detailed > > the incessant harassment and persecution of young Black men as well as the > > oppression of their mothers, partners etc. How are future members of the > > police taught and socialized to carry out these acts? I am not sure, but > > there is a pedagogy involved in turning these future cops into oppressors. > > And there are many structural reasons why in our current society we want > > to jail rather than create employment for young men who may have done > > nothing or misbehaved in ways for which young white men would experience a > > slap on the wrist. I do agree that a start was made by members of the > > Frankfurt school in trying to explore some psychological features of > > oppression under Nazi rule. But not much else has been done since then > > about the socialization that turns na?ve youth into occupying soldiers, > > cops or prison guards. It is a grim topic and though I thought I wanted to > > pursue it, I did not have Alice Goffman's courage and determination. And > > thus choosing avoidance I,too, am an accessory to oppression. > > > > Vera > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces+vygotsky=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces+vygotsky=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg > > Thompson > > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 9:12 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > Francis, > > I too try for an approach of (viral?) immanent critique. I think that > > there are situations where people will "get it" (or maybe "get infected by > > it"), but I particularly sympathize with your day-by-day worries that I'm > > not doing enough and that I should be taking more radical action. But I > > also recall the words of a mentor of mine, feminist scholar and philosopher > > of education Audrey Thompson, who used to point out the importance of > > carrying out a work on multiple levels - some more radical than others but > > all are necessary for change to happen (e.g., Malcolm X and MLK). Still not > > sure I'm convinced of that (if not now, when? if not you, who? and all > > that...), but it's where I'm at. > > > > The overwhelmingly white and mostly middle-class students I confront have > > very good hearts and are often quite interested in this project of > > "liberating the oppressed" (a phrasing that still makes me nervous - > > Perhaps because it seems overly ambitious, or perhaps because it smacks of > > paternalism, but for both reasons I think it is a propos for describing > > what my students are up to). The problem is that my students seem to think > > in ways that are ideologically individualistic. These students can't see > > beyond psychological thinking in which individuals are entirely responsible > > for all that they think and do. They can't see how anything beyond the > > individual could have much relevance to the individual, much less how it > > could play a constitutive role. They are entirely taken by the myth of > > individual will and see the task of liberation of the oppressed to be a > > simple task of educating the oppressed to be more willful in their efforts > > to succeed in an (assumedly) meritocratic system. As a result, they throw > > all their energies behind projects that are doomed to fail in terms of > > accomplishing what they want to accomplish, i.e., "helping" other people. > > > > So, for me, a pedagogy of the oppressors (which, is, in part to say, the > > focus of my own re-search and education) is a pedagogy that can help > > liberate these students from an individualistic ideology (and following > > Michael G, this is not to say that there is anything wrong with people > > thinking as individuals - the problem lies with the ideology of > > individualism). And yes, here is where I see the approach of CHAT to be > > really remarkably useful precisely AS a pedagogy of the oppressor. CHAT > > offers a way of appreciating the role of context in the ongoing > > constitution of individuals. That seems useful. Perhaps even liberating... > > > > cheers, > > greg > > > > p.s. One recent TED talk I came across that I find useful (particularly > > for those students of mine who are interested in international development, > > of which I have a fair number) is Sirolli's talk titled "Want to Help > > Someone: > > Shut Up and Listen": > > > > http://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_listen > > > > The talk and Sirolli's approach leave a lot to be desired, but I sincerely > > appreciate the sentiment "if you want to help someone, shut up and listen", > > and I have found this to be useful to get students to actually begin to > > realize that the world may be bigger (and perhaps badder) than they had > > previously imagined. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 6:16 PM, FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN > > wrote: > > > > > Wow, this is a great thread, one I think about all the time, as one of > > > the oppressors. Not by choice, as I see this as a structural, or > > > rather a "positional" category, akin to the workings of power in terms > > > of one's relationship to the means of production. I can still recall > > > Horkheimer and Adorno's anecdote in *Dialectic of Enlightenment*, one > > > the ways that the songs of the Sirens went unheard by Odysseus' > > > crew--as he had stoppered their ears--yet remained useless to Odysseus > > as he was lashed to the mast. > > > So, I certainly agree that we need a pedagogy of the oppressors as a > > > complement to that of the oppressed. I always thought that was the > > > major effort of the Frankfurt School. > > > As someone who teaches secondary school pre-service teachers, I am > > > quite aware of my structural position as an "officer of the State." I > > > was in the middle of revising my syllabi for the upcoming semester > > > when I saw this thread emerge. The advent of the corporate reform of > > > schooling called Common Core poses a fundamental threat to the > > > democratic roots of education in the US, yet I can neither ignore it > > > nor simply trash it. The students I prepare must be able to address > > > the Core if they are to have a career at all. So, for better or worse, > > > I find the best resistance to be the tightest embrace of the > > > "principles" embedded in the Core, an embrace that, I hope, lets me > > > transform them into a useful and useable critique of the Core itself. > > > So, this semester, we examine "speaking" and "writing" standards in > > > terms of dialect, code, and register differences. We develop lessons > > > and units in which high school students grapple with the reality of > > > "code-switching," and the choices one can make to successfully > > > navigate speech and writing situations defined by conflicting purposes > > and relational hierarchies. > > > > > > Of course, all this is news to my students, almost all of whom are > > > white and middle-class, and most of whom are male. So, I approach > > > these topics by emphasizing that learners develop best when teaching > > > meets them where they are and builds on what they know. I choose texts > > > that de-emphasize the kinds of oppression that plays out in the lives > > > of urban students. So, where does someone like me fit in this mosaic? > > > Are we "leading the resistance from behind; or allowing ourselves to > > > be co-opted?" My answer to that changes at least weekly, sometimes > > > daily. I can only say that I'm doing what I can. > > > > > > Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. > > > Associate Professor > > > Department of Teaching and Learning > > > College of Education > > > Temple University > > > Philadelphia, PA 19122 > > > > > > > > > Find out what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact > > > measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. > > > > > > Frederick Douglass > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > I am peeling off from the old thread to begin a new thread! > > > > > > > > > > > > Our inquiry hear appears to be: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest "a" and not "the" because there could be more than one, > > surely? > > > > > > > > > > > > For new arrivers to this thread, it commenced from this thread here: > > > > > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848 > > > > > > > > > > > > With its genesis here, thanks to Greg! > > > > > > > > http://xmca.ucsd.edu/yarns/15848?keywords=#52332? > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jan 5 22:44:35 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 06:44:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, Message-ID: <1420526675657.27581@unm.edu> Helena! Thank you for your education. I never knew this about Norris-LaGuardia. The paradigm of individualism vs collectivism doesn't seem the fullest reach in describing what is going on today. I respect that others might see it that way. What is also true is that I just do not understand the position, so I'm open to receiving an education by all means! :) Kind regards, Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Mon Jan 5 23:01:31 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 18:01:31 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net> I hesitate to intervene in this conversation, which is quintessentially, though by no means exclusively, American. But the subject heading "What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors?" recalls for me Myles Horton's remarks, in his conversation with Paulo Freire: "I use the term /education/ in contrast to schooling. I decided before Highlander was started that I wanted to work with adults, and the reasons were that in growing up, commencement speakers always made the same speech that young people are the future leaders of this country. It's up to young people to make this a decent country and solve these problems. And I discovered what everybody else discovered, that they never had any intention of letting the people they were talking to do anything about society. It's a kind of pacification speech. The adults run society. Students don't run society. They have very little say within the schools let alone society, the larger society. So I decided I wanted to deal with the people who had the power, if they wanted to use it, to change society, because I was interested in changing society." (p. 182-3) Freire and Horton educated the young, politically active adults in the oppressed section of their respective societies, who went on to build social movements and change society, though it appears that the job is far from finished. I make these points, particularly to the educators on xmca, in the spirit of Marx's "Theses in Feuerbach" #3: "The materialist doctrine that men are products of circumstances and upbringing, and that, therefore, changed men are products of changed circumstances and changed upbringing, forgets that it is men who change circumstances and that the educator must himself be educated. Hence this doctrine is bound to divide society into two parts, one of which is superior to society. The coincidence of the changing of circumstances and of human activity or self-change can be conceived and rationally understood only as **revolutionary practice**." Andy PS. Saw a great movie on this recently: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0375679/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Helena Worthen wrote: > This discussion of an opposition between individualism and collectivism sounds like something out of the 1950s, when "individuals" were viewed as heroic if they stood up to "conformity." > > The demonstrations in Ferguson could just as well be seen as evidence of a collective resistance to oppression, not individualism. > > Labor law provides for collective action because the power relationships of the workplace are so unequal that unless people work together to protect themselves, they are helpless. The language in which this right is named is as follows: "Concerted activity for mutual aid and protection." This language goes back to the earliest labor legislation in the US, the Norris-LaGuardia Act of 1932. It simply means that if you are doing something alone, by yourself, as an individual, to better yourself, you are unprotected and your employer can retaliate against you. If you are doing something with other people -- which means that you have done the work of talking with them and you agree about what you're doing -- then your employer cannot retaliate against you for doing it. > > This is the most basic, bottom-level piece of labor law in the US. Every time someone at work speaks out against something dangerous or cruel or insulting, and does it with other people -- not as a lone individual, but as part of a group, which would include their union but doesn't have to -- they are invoking this right. > > That's a completely different view of "collectivism" than what people have been bringing up on this list. When I look at YouTube videos (or on Vice) to see the young people moving around on the streets in Ferguson, I see concerted activity. Same here in Berkeley, where there have been numerous demonstrations including blocking I-80. I am glad they're doing it and I respect them for it. > > Various labor commentators, by the way, have excoriated the police union for their behavior toward Mayor DeBlasio and other old NY unions for their failure to speak out against police killings of unarmed black men. > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jan 5 23:25:15 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 07:25:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> , <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net> Message-ID: <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu> Hi Andy! With regard to this: "The materialist doctrine that men are products of circumstances and upbringing, and that, therefore, changed men are products of changed circumstances and changed upbringing, forgets that it is men who change circumstances and that the educator must himself be educated. Hence this doctrine is bound to divide society into two parts, one of which is superior to society. The coincidence of the changing of circumstances and of human activity or self-change can be conceived and rationally understood only as **revolutionary practice**." First I'd ask, what about the women? Where are they in this scheme? Second, does this education that Marx considers (educating the educated) concern the care of others? Where is the feeling? How is compassion taught? What is the view on the pain of others? How is that "rationally understood"? Third, revolution frequently is bloody. How does Marx answer for that? Or is that just an inconvenience? Also, I'm not certain how this defines the pedagogy of the oppressor. It certainly identifies a need for "re-education," but what IS the education that the educator must let go? Kind regards, Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Mon Jan 5 23:44:57 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 18:44:57 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> , <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net> <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu> Message-ID: <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net> The quote is of course a translation. Marx wrote in German. In any case, the 19th century concept of "man" which he references, was used also without qualification by the great feminist, and English-speaking contemporary of Marx, Mary Wollstonecraft. The discovery of the oppressive function of gendered language was a gain of Second Wave feminism of the 1960s of which we are all the beneficiaries. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Andy! > > With regard to this: > > "The materialist doctrine that men are products of circumstances and > upbringing, and that, therefore, changed men are products of changed > circumstances and changed upbringing, forgets that it is men who > change circumstances and that the educator must himself be educated. > Hence this doctrine is bound to divide society into two parts, one > of which is superior to society. The coincidence of the changing of > circumstances and of human activity or self-change can be conceived > and rationally understood only as **revolutionary practice**." > > First I'd ask, what about the women? Where are they in this scheme? > > Second, does this education that Marx considers (educating the educated) concern the care of others? Where is the feeling? How is compassion taught? What is the view on the pain of others? How is that "rationally understood"? > > Third, revolution frequently is bloody. How does Marx answer for that? Or is that just an inconvenience? > > Also, I'm not certain how this defines the pedagogy of the oppressor. It certainly identifies a need for "re-education," but what IS the education that the educator must let go? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu Tue Jan 6 00:32:24 2015 From: mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu (Zavala, Miguel) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 08:32:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Tensions in the concept testimonio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I read through the series of posts related to these and read Peter's synopsis/chapter on hermeneutics. I can now hear the voice of Gadamer in Levinas, who seems to shift from interpretation and knowing to ethics (a kind of ethical hermeneutics as Enrique Dussel has termed). "Understanding as productive process"; "meaning is always an experience, an event, a moment of application?" While reference is made to "text" I also see how "text" is viewed broadly, such that hermeneutics as a practice involves intentional "reading" and "interpretation" of events, social phenomena, etc. What I see in testimonio is a particular kind of intentional "voicing," an orientation toward community (a "collective" voice) that is distinct from an intentional "interpretation." While hermeneutics, as I read Peter's synthesis, orients to the past (via texts, and self always present), testimonio orients to "others". Ethics as relations to others are primary or assume a kind of primacy over epistemology and knowing. I believe Enrique Dussel has carved out important ground on this point. My sense in reading testimonios (and attempts at re-searching and understanding how they are generated and function within grassroots organizations) is that they DO speak against-to oppression. Testimonios are not transparent but can be rather messy, yet they are (or are attempts) at collective voicing. Unlike autobiographies that may be intentionally individual. [Note: some analytic and parsing out is needed in coming to define testimonio, but I recognize that autobiographies and testimonios can blur]. Below is an excerpt from my own research, an auto-ethnography of community organizing, that may be useful in teasing out a central problem/tension, that between individual and collective voicing. [Excerpt Begins?] "To note, critical personal narratives, identified by Swadener and Mutua (2004) as a predominant genre in decolonizing writing, challenge post/positivist methodologies found in traditional social science approaches, such as case-study, ethnography, and narrative research. Indigenists resist the positivist and postpositivist methodologies of Western science because these formations are too frequently used to validate colonizing knowledge about indigenous peoples. Indigenists deploy, instead, interpretive strategies and skills fitted to the needs, language, and traditions of their respective indigenous community. These strategies emphasize personal performance narratives and testimonios." (Denzin & Lincoln, 2008, p. 10) In critical personal narratives, concerns with objectivity and a one-to-one retelling of events are secondary to the desire to speak against injustice. Like testimonios, critical personal narratives ?involve an urgency to communicate, a problem of repression, poverty, subalternity, imprisonment, struggle for survival, and so on, implicated in the act of narration itself,? (Beverley, 2004, p. 26). Thus, this approach entails reconstituting the narrator/storyteller as a spatially marked and historically inscribed subject that is conditioned and conditions both the interpretation of story and the writing of story. Stretching narrative beyond its uses in Western/Modern science requires that we reinvent narrative as a practice beyond spaces of empirical scientific investigation. Speaking from my particular socio-political location, political, ethical, and spiritual concerns are just as important as scientific concerns. The debates on testimonio not withstanding, I will argue that critical personal narrative as method and strategy should be viewed as collective rather than individual expression. Narration is, as John Beverley remarks on testimonio, an ?affirmation of the individual self in a collective mode,? (Beverley, 2004, p. 29). Finally, a caution that many indigenous and critical scholars have with post/positivist frameworks is that these in the name of scientific rigor often serve to silence the individual and collective voices of the subaltern. Consequently, the subaltern is only allowed to speak in the terms and conditions drawn out by the discourses and frameworks of the practice of legitimized science. What are sought here are methods and methodologies, always messy, that enable storytelling and analysis from the margins. I explicitly position myself as an indigenous, Chicano scholar and community organizer. Thus, my review of North participatory action-research projects is written from the standpoint of the South, invoking the voices of the people on the ground, the researched, and academics located at the margins working with/in the colonial-capitalist State. ------------------------------ On 1/4/15 1:46 PM, "Larry Purss" wrote: >Miguel wrote in the other thread: > >One of the (many) central problems raised by testimonio, which I also >find >in standpoint theory (Harding), is the question/tension/exploration of >individual AND >collective voicing. > >I was hoping Miguel and others could elaborate on this central *problem* >[and central question] >Peter's question if testimonio and third spaces also require resistance >and >therefore he chose to use the concept *hybrid* >I am hoping to refocus [re-search] the transformative EFFECT of *third >spaces* and link it back to the notion of "truth" as being relevant [not >universal]. > >Using ideas such as "living in truth" or "hearing each other into voice" >can develop within third spaces but if there is no resistance must we >shift >to a notion such as hybrid to understand Miguel's question and problem the >tensions within "individual AND collective *voices* >Larry > >I am not sure about starting another thread, but chose to do so to focus >back to Miguel's original answer "inviting" receptively further questions. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: default.xml Type: application/xml Size: 3222 bytes Desc: default.xml Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150106/6ece79eb/attachment.rdf From smago@uga.edu Tue Jan 6 03:18:07 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 11:18:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , , , , , , , <1420499435703.73468@unm.edu> Message-ID: Larry is reading my intentions properly. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of larry smolucha Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 7:00 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? Message from Francine: Annalisa, I thought that the point Peter was making is that the 'oppressor' and 'oppressed' categories are not mutually exclusive. Someone can be both. I agree that in cycles of violence, it becomes difficult to determine who is oppressing whom. And when two guys get into a fight, expect it to quickly escalate (is it testosterone?) - that's why you don't start punching a man with a gun. > From: annalisa@unm.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 23:10:36 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Hello! > > In response to Peter's comments about the binary, it made me pause. I don't mean to make a joke of this, but can one be an oppressor without oppressing another? Can one be oppressed without an oppressor? Doesn't an oppressor imply an other being oppressed? > > I could oppress my pillow at night without realizing it, but somehow I don't think it minds. > > If I may ask some questions in light of Francine's, these would be: > > Why does an oppressor oppress in the first place? Like all activity, there must be a motivation and a goal in mind. > > Is there something in common to Francine's questions that point to a basic cause? > > I'd offer that "difference" is an assumption made prior to any motivation. Also known as "otherness." Otherness is likely common to both oppressors and oppressed, but they reflect otherness onto the opposite side. > > In cases where there is otherness and no oppression, compared to where there is otherness and oppression, I'd have to say another factor that creates tension in the latter scenario is fear. More specifically, fear of the other. Where there is no fear of the other, there is tolerance and possibly understanding. > > So it seems to me that some factors absent in the dance of oppression would be tolerance and understanding, and it is highly likely there is an abundance of fear. > > Over a longstanding period of suffering fear of the other, this likely develops into hatred, and hatred is what likely creates the unfortunate setting for violence and despair. > > However in a space of equals, two parties who see one another as the other doesn't necessarily motivate oppression. It could be just indifference or possibly appreciation. > > So it is likely what brings in oppression as a distinct move, after these precursors are established, would be vulnerability and an imbalance of power. > > In the case of Fergusen, the oppression did not break out overnight. It may be that the police are explaining the issue as arising from "bad apples" but does anyone really believe this? Oppression by its nature is systemic. I don't think we consider acts of oppression to be something done incidentally. If they were, perhaps there would be no reason to call it oppression. Maybe that is what bullying or rudeness is. > > In other words, oppression cannot be individualistic. It must be done collectively. > > I cannot imagine being a police officer without having to deal with ongoing fear, intolerance, violence, and despair. I'm not attempting to elicit sympathy for police officers, but without excellent training, wouldn't the most resilient and well-meaning person hoping to keep the peace take a false step from time to time? And yet, what we see is something different. It is a culture that encourages unity in the ranks by dehumanizing the other in order to legitimize oppressive behavior onto the other. I feel that it wasn't Michael Brown's blackness that killed him, but Darren Wilson's intense fear and hatred of the other that was previously conjured by a collective act wrongly utilized to create unity in the ranks with other police officers, and courtrooms, and communities. It was all a head job. > > In the case of elitism, it is a little different, but there are certainly commonalities. There is perhaps less a culture of fear, and more a culture of entitlement. I wonder if there is also a tribal communion that "you lived through the ritual of university as I did, and so you and I are family. That other person over there did not go through the ritual as we did, and so that other is not-family." > > Family is about taking care of one another, which means securing resources to share, right? In the case of people who are better educated, that would indicate privilege in the sense of being more knowledgeable, though we know that isn't always the case. There is also the political aspect of knowing others of the family and that the reason something like Facebook took off is because of "look who I know." It's all about exploiting one another's rolodexes. Networking doesn't only happen among elites, but something about this particular kind of networking seems to revolve around halls of power, which secures the best resources for the family. Also, it means maintaining the status quo so that these more hallowed forms of oppression are intact for the next generation. > > Another factor I see in considering the two forms of oppression that Francine has called to our attention is the matter of distancing. Oppression cannot occur without distancing. Usually that distancing is about justifying an oppressive move just before or after it has taken place, as in "the other deserved it." As if blaming the victim is an act of courage, not cowardice. Or "If I didn't do it first, the other would do it to me," which is in synch with "You are either a hammer or a nail," reasoning. > > What boggles my mind is that the reasoning of hammers and nail binaries, is that nails don't remain nailed, like inanimate objects. The other is in community with other others. And where there is violence involved there is hurt, and where there is hurt involved there will be fear and hatred and also enmity. > > Enmity is not created nor dislocated overnight. Why anyone would want to create an enemy is not by any means the sign of intelligence, because even if one is the victor in this round of violence, from that point on one must always look over one's shoulder for those in search of revenge and retribution against the victor. There must always be vigilance, which feeds into the systemic aspect of oppression. Control is legitimized because "Now they will come after us." > > There can never be peace in this circumstance, and it is a never-ending wheel of suffering. > > Thanks for letting me think out loud. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Jan 6 04:31:22 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 21:31:22 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net> <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu> <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy: Actually, Mary Wollstonecraft died about twenty years before Marx was born, so she wasn't exactly contemporary. But she certainly did use the word "man" as you say. We often assume that previous ages had stunted, oppressive language while of course our own is somehow completely liberated; not too far down in this assumption is the assumption that it is possible to have an ungendered language while we still have a highly gender-oppressive society. Similarly, Annalisa seems to be assuming that compassion and feeling is what needs to be taught, and that teaching it will somehow change the exploitation rate, and the violence of the status quo. Actually, if we were to look for an innate feeling on which higher psychological functions might naturally build, compassion and feeling are a good place to start. I have seen no evidence that "teaching" love and compassion to fellow human beings is either possible or necessary. It is curious how many people in New York City, for example, are wlling to pay the price of occasional black deaths through overpolicing simply because the crime rate has fallen there. It is not that curious, though, because so many of the people who feel this way are white. Nothing kills like leaving things alone. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 6 January 2015 at 16:44, Andy Blunden wrote: > The quote is of course a translation. Marx wrote in German. In any case, > the 19th century concept of "man" which he references, was used also > without qualification by the great feminist, and English-speaking > contemporary of Marx, Mary Wollstonecraft. The discovery of the oppressive > function of gendered language was a gain of Second Wave feminism of the > 1960s of which we are all the beneficiaries. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> Hi Andy! >> >> With regard to this: >> >> "The materialist doctrine that men are products of circumstances and >> upbringing, and that, therefore, changed men are products of changed >> circumstances and changed upbringing, forgets that it is men who >> change circumstances and that the educator must himself be educated. >> Hence this doctrine is bound to divide society into two parts, one >> of which is superior to society. The coincidence of the changing of >> circumstances and of human activity or self-change can be conceived >> and rationally understood only as **revolutionary practice**." >> >> First I'd ask, what about the women? Where are they in this scheme? >> >> Second, does this education that Marx considers (educating the educated) >> concern the care of others? Where is the feeling? How is compassion taught? >> What is the view on the pain of others? How is that "rationally understood"? >> >> Third, revolution frequently is bloody. How does Marx answer for that? Or >> is that just an inconvenience? >> >> Also, I'm not certain how this defines the pedagogy of the oppressor. It >> certainly identifies a need for "re-education," but what IS the education >> that the educator must let go? >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Jan 6 06:36:18 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 06:36:18 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Instantiations of Dialogical Experience as events AND Models of World Experience Message-ID: Henry, and others interested in the way Franson Manjali historically *traced* the development of linguistic theory through culture, cognition and pragmatic use. He answered that,Yes he would contribute and would answer soon. I mentioned the CHAT listserve and that I had distributed his five page article on the site, so he understands what he shares will be distributed widely to a cultural-historical audience He has studied in France and translated books from French to English. He is deeply familiar with that intellectual context. His background from India may also offer unique interweavings. Henry, do you have specific concrete questions for Franson? From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Jan 6 07:24:22 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 07:24:22 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Tensions in the concept testimonio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Miguel, I hope we can engage in the centrality of *ethics* as what we are exploring in this thread. David Kellogg wrote in the other thread : Actually, if we were to look for an innate feeling on which higher psychological functions might naturally build, compassion and feeling are a good place to start. So let's start with THESE particular *innate feelings* on which *higher psychological functions" NATURALLY build -feeling and compassion- I do not know Enrique Dussel's *kind* of ethical hermeneutics, but I am willing to follow this path. Miguel mentions it shares affinities with Levinas approach to answering to the face of the suffering other. Miguel mentions meaning is always an *event*, a moment of application, which is one aspect of the meaning of *experience*. Another meaning of *experience* is the *weaving together* intersubjectively these *experiential* events through *witnessing*. The centrality of creating *third spaces* and hybrid dialogues that collectively honour our shared *events* AS an act of compassion and feeling. Using all our capacities of reflection to actualize our preconceptually *felt* structures of feeling. Participating in the labyrinths of language to articulate and clarify and institute new institutions that reflect this new *structure of feeling* which is a shared social *feeling* participating with *innate* compassion. I submit this is moving in the realm of *as if* as potential and possibility. *third spaces* and *testimonio* are concrete living examples of this transformative notion of living in place as ethically responding to the *call* or *invitation* of the other. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Zavala, Miguel Date: Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 12:32 AM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Tensions in the concept testimonio To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" I read through the series of posts related to these and read Peter's synopsis/chapter on hermeneutics. I can now hear the voice of Gadamer in Levinas, who seems to shift from interpretation and knowing to ethics (a kind of ethical hermeneutics as Enrique Dussel has termed). "Understanding as productive process"; "meaning is always an experience, an event, a moment of application?" While reference is made to "text" I also see how "text" is viewed broadly, such that hermeneutics as a practice involves intentional "reading" and "interpretation" of events, social phenomena, etc. What I see in testimonio is a particular kind of intentional "voicing," an orientation toward community (a "collective" voice) that is distinct from an intentional "interpretation." While hermeneutics, as I read Peter's synthesis, orients to the past (via texts, and self always present), testimonio orients to "others". Ethics as relations to others are primary or assume a kind of primacy over epistemology and knowing. I believe Enrique Dussel has carved out important ground on this point. My sense in reading testimonios (and attempts at re-searching and understanding how they are generated and function within grassroots organizations) is that they DO speak against-to oppression. Testimonios are not transparent but can be rather messy, yet they are (or are attempts) at collective voicing. Unlike autobiographies that may be intentionally individual. [Note: some analytic and parsing out is needed in coming to define testimonio, but I recognize that autobiographies and testimonios can blur]. Below is an excerpt from my own research, an auto-ethnography of community organizing, that may be useful in teasing out a central problem/tension, that between individual and collective voicing. [Excerpt Begins?] "To note, critical personal narratives, identified by Swadener and Mutua (2004) as a predominant genre in decolonizing writing, challenge post/positivist methodologies found in traditional social science approaches, such as case-study, ethnography, and narrative research. Indigenists resist the positivist and postpositivist methodologies of Western science because these formations are too frequently used to validate colonizing knowledge about indigenous peoples. Indigenists deploy, instead, interpretive strategies and skills fitted to the needs, language, and traditions of their respective indigenous community. These strategies emphasize personal performance narratives and testimonios." (Denzin & Lincoln, 2008, p. 10) In critical personal narratives, concerns with objectivity and a one-to-one retelling of events are secondary to the desire to speak against injustice. Like testimonios, critical personal narratives ?involve an urgency to communicate, a problem of repression, poverty, subalternity, imprisonment, struggle for survival, and so on, implicated in the act of narration itself,? (Beverley, 2004, p. 26). Thus, this approach entails reconstituting the narrator/storyteller as a spatially marked and historically inscribed subject that is conditioned and conditions both the interpretation of story and the writing of story. Stretching narrative beyond its uses in Western/Modern science requires that we reinvent narrative as a practice beyond spaces of empirical scientific investigation. Speaking from my particular socio-political location, political, ethical, and spiritual concerns are just as important as scientific concerns. The debates on testimonio not withstanding, I will argue that critical personal narrative as method and strategy should be viewed as collective rather than individual expression. Narration is, as John Beverley remarks on testimonio, an ?affirmation of the individual self in a collective mode,? (Beverley, 2004, p. 29). Finally, a caution that many indigenous and critical scholars have with post/positivist frameworks is that these in the name of scientific rigor often serve to silence the individual and collective voices of the subaltern. Consequently, the subaltern is only allowed to speak in the terms and conditions drawn out by the discourses and frameworks of the practice of legitimized science. What are sought here are methods and methodologies, always messy, that enable storytelling and analysis from the margins. I explicitly position myself as an indigenous, Chicano scholar and community organizer. Thus, my review of North participatory action-research projects is written from the standpoint of the South, invoking the voices of the people on the ground, the researched, and academics located at the margins working with/in the colonial-capitalist State. ------------------------------ On 1/4/15 1:46 PM, "Larry Purss" wrote: >Miguel wrote in the other thread: > >One of the (many) central problems raised by testimonio, which I also >find >in standpoint theory (Harding), is the question/tension/exploration of >individual AND >collective voicing. > >I was hoping Miguel and others could elaborate on this central *problem* >[and central question] >Peter's question if testimonio and third spaces also require resistance >and >therefore he chose to use the concept *hybrid* >I am hoping to refocus [re-search] the transformative EFFECT of *third >spaces* and link it back to the notion of "truth" as being relevant [not >universal]. > >Using ideas such as "living in truth" or "hearing each other into voice" >can develop within third spaces but if there is no resistance must we >shift >to a notion such as hybrid to understand Miguel's question and problem the >tensions within "individual AND collective *voices* >Larry > >I am not sure about starting another thread, but chose to do so to focus >back to Miguel's original answer "inviting" receptively further questions. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: default.xml Type: application/xml Size: 3222 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150106/b737f86a/attachment.rdf From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Jan 6 07:31:46 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 07:31:46 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Brandom Reads Sellars Message-ID: Andy Anew book by Brandom titled "From Empiricism to Expressivism" has just been published. Here is a blub: The American philosopher Wilfrid Sellars ranks as one of the leading twentieth-century critics of empiricism?a philosophical approach to knowledge that seeks to ground it in human sense experience. Sellars stood in the forefront of a recoil within analytic philosophy from the foundationalist assumptions of contemporary empiricists. *From Empiricism to Expressivism* is a far-reaching reinterpretation of Sellars from one of the philosopher?s most brilliant intellectual heirs. Unifying and extending Sellars?s most important ideas, Robert Brandom constructs a theory of pragmatic expressivism which, in contrast to empiricism, understands meaning and knowledge in terms of the role expressions play in social practices. The key lies in Sellars?s radical reworking of Kant?s idea of the categories: the idea that the expressive job characteristic of many of the most important philosophical concepts is not to describe or explain the empirical world but rather to make explicit essential features of the conceptual framework that makes description and explanation possible. Brandom reconciles otherwise disparate elements of Sellars?s system, revealing a greater level of coherence and consistency in the philosopher?s arguments against empiricism than has usually been acknowledged. *From Empiricism to Expressivism* clarifies what Sellars had in mind when he talked about moving analytic philosophy from its Humean to its Kantian phase, and why such a move might be of crucial importance today. I thought the concept of "expressive pragmaticism" may have relevance to others From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Jan 6 08:56:50 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 09:56:50 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net> <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu> <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net> Message-ID: Annalisa, As for what constitutes (literally!) an ideology of individualism, I (re)turn to Marx's critique of capitalism. As I read Marx, one of the distinctive features of capitalism is individualism. In Marx's view, wage labor fundamentally transforms society. Whereas prior to capitalism (aka "modernity"), labor was primarily communal and one's labor was contingent on connections with others, with capitalism, the labor is suddenly freed of all constraints of caste and tradition. Labor is "up to" the individual. The good part about this for Marx (and this is the aspect that Francine and Michael have been pointing to) is that you have the emergence of rich individuality. This is a new development that, although previously present in small measure, is the hallmark of modernity and of capitalism and it creates the possibilities for the flourishing individual (lots to be praised here). Yet, something fundamentally important is lost in this moment. In gaining ourselves, we lose our connections with others. Those complex relations that were previously had between human and human are now transferred to the commodity such that commodities now take on the complex relations that were once between persons. This is Marx's fetish of the commodity - the commodity that takes on the lives of persons (e.g., the table that develops grotesque ideas out of its woody brain). I don't know how Francine and Michael read Marx here, but my reading of his work is not that he is suggesting that we go back to a bygone era in which the individual was subsumed by the collective. Rather, I read Marx as suggesting that we recognize the remarkable things that capitalism has given us - most notable of which is rich individuality. But what seems to me to be key for Marx is precisely the point that Annalisa makes - that we see ourselves in others and recognize our fundamental connectedness one with another. That is, following Hegel, our individuality (our very being!) is constituted through others. I see this as a fundamentally different position from "group think" or the kinds of "collectivism" that Francine and Michael are concerned about. As a dialectical thinker, Marx is proposing a sublation of the simple opposition of individual and collective. It bears mentioning that despite the rampant ideology of individualism, the fact of our interdependence and inter-relatedness is perhaps truer in this moment in time than at any other time in history. Just take a moment to consider the hands that made the most intimate items of our everyday lives - the shirt on your back, your pants, your socks, even your underwear! Or your consider the gadgetry with which we spend most of our lives - who made the parts for that iPhone that you nestle up to every time you wish to speak to loved ones - or anyone. Or the computers with which we while away our hours on this earth. Whose hands were responsible for assembling these variously intimate items? Chances are good that the clothes that touch us every day were handled (touched?) by a woman somewhere in Bangladesh, Camobodia, or the Dominican Republic, and that the gadgetry that we hold so dear was handled by a man or woman in China, Japan, Taiwan or Mexico. But, I think Marx's point still holds today: just as those laborers remain alienated from the products of their labor, we remain alienated from those laborers to the point that we can hardly imagine the hands that once handled these most intimate items of ours (a different sort of "invisible hand" than Adam Smith spoke of!). That's my sense of what an ideology of individualism is, and also why CHAT is so important. But I imagine that others may have something else in mind. Relatedly, greg On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 5:31 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > Andy: > > Actually, Mary Wollstonecraft died about twenty years before Marx was born, > so she wasn't exactly contemporary. But she certainly did use the word > "man" as you say. > > We often assume that previous ages had stunted, oppressive language while > of course our own is somehow completely liberated; not too far down in this > assumption is the assumption that it is possible to have an ungendered > language while we still have a highly gender-oppressive society. > > Similarly, Annalisa seems to be assuming that compassion and feeling is > what needs to be taught, and that teaching it will somehow change the > exploitation rate, and the violence of the status quo. Actually, if we were > to look for an innate feeling on which higher psychological functions might > naturally build, compassion and feeling are a good place to start. I have > seen no evidence that "teaching" love and compassion to fellow human beings > is either possible or necessary. > > It is curious how many people in New York City, for example, are wlling to > pay the price of occasional black deaths through overpolicing simply > because the crime rate has fallen there. It is not that curious, though, > because so many of the people who feel this way are white. Nothing kills > like leaving things alone. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 6 January 2015 at 16:44, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > The quote is of course a translation. Marx wrote in German. In any case, > > the 19th century concept of "man" which he references, was used also > > without qualification by the great feminist, and English-speaking > > contemporary of Marx, Mary Wollstonecraft. The discovery of the > oppressive > > function of gendered language was a gain of Second Wave feminism of the > > 1960s of which we are all the beneficiaries. > > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > >> Hi Andy! > >> > >> With regard to this: > >> > >> "The materialist doctrine that men are products of circumstances and > >> upbringing, and that, therefore, changed men are products of changed > >> circumstances and changed upbringing, forgets that it is men who > >> change circumstances and that the educator must himself be educated. > >> Hence this doctrine is bound to divide society into two parts, one > >> of which is superior to society. The coincidence of the changing of > >> circumstances and of human activity or self-change can be conceived > >> and rationally understood only as **revolutionary practice**." > >> > >> First I'd ask, what about the women? Where are they in this scheme? > >> > >> Second, does this education that Marx considers (educating the educated) > >> concern the care of others? Where is the feeling? How is compassion > taught? > >> What is the view on the pain of others? How is that "rationally > understood"? > >> > >> Third, revolution frequently is bloody. How does Marx answer for that? > Or > >> is that just an inconvenience? > >> > >> Also, I'm not certain how this defines the pedagogy of the oppressor. It > >> certainly identifies a need for "re-education," but what IS the > education > >> that the educator must let go? > >> > >> Kind regards, > >> > >> Annalisa > >> > >> > >> > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Jan 6 09:36:35 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 10:36:35 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] How embodied is Cognition? Message-ID: I thought this short article "How embodied is Cognition?" by Daniel Hutto might be a nice piece to bring together with the pre-frontal discussion in the other thread (not as counterpoint but as complement): https://www.academia.edu/9614435/How_Embodied_Is_Cognition Here is a teaser: "E is the letter, if not the word, in today?s sciences of mind. E adjectives proliferate. Nowadays it is hard to avoid claims that cognition ? perceiving, imagining, decision-making, planning ? is best understood in E terms of some sort. The list of E-terms is long: embodied, enactive, extended, embedded, ecological, engaged, emotional, expressive, emergent and so on. This short piece explains: the big idea behind this movement; how it is inspired by empirical findings; why it matters; and what questions the field will face in the future. It focuses on the stronger and weaker ways that..." -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jan 6 09:43:35 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 17:43:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> , <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net> <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu>,<54AB9279.3030108@mira.net> Message-ID: <1420566214870.30593@unm.edu> Andy, You answered the first question though not the others. You may not believe me that the first question was rhetorical, but not the others. It seems you have misunderstood me 100%! :) Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+annalisa=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Tuesday, January 6, 2015 12:44 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? The quote is of course a translation. Marx wrote in German. In any case, the 19th century concept of "man" which he references, was used also without qualification by the great feminist, and English-speaking contemporary of Marx, Mary Wollstonecraft. The discovery of the oppressive function of gendered language was a gain of Second Wave feminism of the 1960s of which we are all the beneficiaries. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Andy! > > With regard to this: > > "The materialist doctrine that men are products of circumstances and > upbringing, and that, therefore, changed men are products of changed > circumstances and changed upbringing, forgets that it is men who > change circumstances and that the educator must himself be educated. > Hence this doctrine is bound to divide society into two parts, one > of which is superior to society. The coincidence of the changing of > circumstances and of human activity or self-change can be conceived > and rationally understood only as **revolutionary practice**." > > First I'd ask, what about the women? Where are they in this scheme? > > Second, does this education that Marx considers (educating the educated) concern the care of others? Where is the feeling? How is compassion taught? What is the view on the pain of others? How is that "rationally understood"? > > Third, revolution frequently is bloody. How does Marx answer for that? Or is that just an inconvenience? > > Also, I'm not certain how this defines the pedagogy of the oppressor. It certainly identifies a need for "re-education," but what IS the education that the educator must let go? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Jan 6 09:45:07 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 10:45:07 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Freire's Pedagogy of Solidarity Message-ID: Just saw a flyer with Freire's book Pedagogy of Solidarity and am wondering if anyone out there in XMCA-land has read it and can offer a brief summary since it seems relevant to the pedagogy of the oppressors thread. -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jan 6 10:44:54 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 18:44:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net> <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu> <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net>, Message-ID: <1420569894373.65896@unm.edu> Hello David, Andy, and esteemed listeners, Actually David, with regard to compassion and feeling you've misread me. That's OK. The magic of the list is that the word is never final, never cast in cement. And we can enjoy another round! But it is true that men may forget how, if one is a woman, we must take out our imaginary black marker and write a "hu-" when reading pre-1960s texts that talk about the human species. With regard to feeling and compassion, I was asking how that was taught, only because the quote discussed education. In reality, the way I feel, and I have checked myself on this matter so I have the references straight, it's not that feeling and compassion should be taught, it's that it should be retaught. My belief is that we have been untaught how to feel and to be compassionate. This is especially evident in the face of others in pain. For example, there has been research about mirror neurons that show we feel what others feel, especially when witnessing others in painful situations. But more specifically, what I was trying to point out with Andy's Marx quote is how there is a complete absence of words that describe emotion and feeling. Are they implied in the same way "men" implies "humans" ? You see, my take is that there is a wrong belief handed down that emotion and feeling is somehow "irrational." When we know today from neuroscience that feeling and emotion are required in order to cognize properly. We know from patients suffering brain injury in the areas responsible for affect (I don't remember at the moment what area that is), that they make decisions that end up hurting themselves, in other words they make irrational decisions. Knowing this, what would it mean then, for humans making decisions for all humans, who have made it essentially taboo to speak the language of emotion and feeling? That one is rewarded for striking all emotion out of speech and punished for speaking it or of it? The premiere of the new season of Downton Abbey began last night, and they have a sideshow they aired last night called, "The Manners of Downton Abbey," in which some fellow, who apparently can trace his lineage all the way back to Robert the Bruce in Burke's Peerage, explains to us the etiquette of Edwardians. His job is to "remind" all the actors on the set how to behave as Edwardians; they call him, the Oracle. What I found remarkable is his claim that the upper class, feeling threatened after WWI, sought to harden the rules of etiquette because they saw it as the glue for society, that they had to be an example of propriety. Otherwise society would simply fall apart. He doesn't actually say that, but that is implied. Society of course means "their society." Many landed families lost their estates for various reasons, some arising from changing social roles and opportunities for the working class in cities that were not jobs as servants, but mostly all this derived from fighting a terrible war. It seems manners was all that they had left. Then they indicate with scene clips from the series how displaying emotion (after a great and terrible war no less) is considered bad manners. Even one's body language most be one of "being in control." The stiff upper lip now has a whole new meaning to me. My facile connection here with regard to feeling and emotion, in the way I've been speaking about it on this thread, is that it appears that taking it out of speech creates stratification of class. So, David, it is not "teaching" love that I'm talking about. It is unteaching insensitivity. These really are different things. I actually believe that we are innately feeling and thinking creatures. It is too bad there isn't a word in English that combines feeling and thinking. Maybe cognition, but I'm not sure. That word seems to be defined as acts of perception and knowledge. In any case, what I don't understand is the denial of feeling if that is half of what we are. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Tuesday, January 6, 2015 5:31 AM To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? Andy: Actually, Mary Wollstonecraft died about twenty years before Marx was born, so she wasn't exactly contemporary. But she certainly did use the word "man" as you say. We often assume that previous ages had stunted, oppressive language while of course our own is somehow completely liberated; not too far down in this assumption is the assumption that it is possible to have an ungendered language while we still have a highly gender-oppressive society. Similarly, Annalisa seems to be assuming that compassion and feeling is what needs to be taught, and that teaching it will somehow change the exploitation rate, and the violence of the status quo. Actually, if we were to look for an innate feeling on which higher psychological functions might naturally build, compassion and feeling are a good place to start. I have seen no evidence that "teaching" love and compassion to fellow human beings is either possible or necessary. It is curious how many people in New York City, for example, are wlling to pay the price of occasional black deaths through overpolicing simply because the crime rate has fallen there. It is not that curious, though, because so many of the people who feel this way are white. Nothing kills like leaving things alone. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 6 January 2015 at 16:44, Andy Blunden wrote: > The quote is of course a translation. Marx wrote in German. In any case, > the 19th century concept of "man" which he references, was used also > without qualification by the great feminist, and English-speaking > contemporary of Marx, Mary Wollstonecraft. The discovery of the oppressive > function of gendered language was a gain of Second Wave feminism of the > 1960s of which we are all the beneficiaries. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> Hi Andy! >> >> With regard to this: >> >> "The materialist doctrine that men are products of circumstances and >> upbringing, and that, therefore, changed men are products of changed >> circumstances and changed upbringing, forgets that it is men who >> change circumstances and that the educator must himself be educated. >> Hence this doctrine is bound to divide society into two parts, one >> of which is superior to society. The coincidence of the changing of >> circumstances and of human activity or self-change can be conceived >> and rationally understood only as **revolutionary practice**." >> >> First I'd ask, what about the women? Where are they in this scheme? >> >> Second, does this education that Marx considers (educating the educated) >> concern the care of others? Where is the feeling? How is compassion taught? >> What is the view on the pain of others? How is that "rationally understood"? >> >> Third, revolution frequently is bloody. How does Marx answer for that? Or >> is that just an inconvenience? >> >> Also, I'm not certain how this defines the pedagogy of the oppressor. It >> certainly identifies a need for "re-education," but what IS the education >> that the educator must let go? >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Jan 6 11:59:18 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 12:59:18 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Instantiations of Dialogical Experience as events AND Models of World Experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92594871-6B71-46A3-A00D-46AD690B60D1@gmail.com> Larry, Thank you for contacting Franson! And thank you for taking questions to him. I am particularly interested to know if Franson has read the recent work by Langacker linking cognitive grammar and discourse. To do this Langacker has shifted from grammatical constituency to symbolic assembly as the unit of analysis of language in use. I think it is fair to say that this shift is in line with what Franson is getting at when he says in his 1998 survey article, Culture and Semantics (commenting on the cognitive models of Layoff, et. al.: "However, we have to be cautious not to yield to a static view of these 'models'. They come to be, and are forever reconstituted through series of 'conceptual blendings' of the sort proposed by Fauconnier and Turner. Though we adopt this term, the actual process may be extremely complex, and needs deeper theoretical reflection and elaboration. Furthermore, the cognitive point of view that culture and all that surrounds it result from mutually orienting behaviour and that they are ultimately derived from 'sharing' of individuals' lived experiences presents us only with a micro perspective. Cultures, in fact, are constituted of a very large number of individuals, and it is difficult to observe the occurrence of biologically-based mutual orienting behaviour in real situations. Moreover, contestations are as much part of the cultural sphere as are agreements. Rather noise-free acculturation can perhaps be seen only in the limited context of cultural acquisition by children or foreigners. In such contexts, however, there exists a cultural differential between the donors of culture and its receivers, be it children or foreigners. Here, in the absence of similar 'cognitive domains' the possibility of sharing a common symbolic system or language is regarded as a prerequisite for cultural sharing.? Regarding ?contestations?, one need only look at this chat to find plenty of data. Thank you again. You rock! Henry > On Jan 6, 2015, at 7:36 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > Henry, and others interested in the way Franson Manjali historically > *traced* the development of linguistic theory through culture, cognition > and pragmatic use. > He answered that,Yes he would contribute and would answer soon. > > I mentioned the CHAT listserve and that I had distributed his five page > article on the site, so he understands what he shares will be distributed > widely to a cultural-historical audience > > He has studied in France and translated books from French to English. He is > deeply familiar with that intellectual context. His background from India > may also offer unique interweavings. > > Henry, do you have specific concrete questions for Franson? From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Jan 6 14:17:49 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 15:17:49 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: How embodied is Cognition? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65CE5EFE-B56B-4199-8ABA-B6EC921EE208@gmail.com> Greg, While reading about what Hutto and McGivern on ?radical E-approaches to cognition I remembered reading a book by Esther Thelen and Linda Smith , A Dynamic Systems Approach to the Development of Cognition and Action (1994). Here are three quotes: ?We conclude here that, as all mental activity is emergent, situated, historical and embodied, there is in principle no difference between the processes engendering, walking, reaching, and looking for hidden objects and those resulting in mathematics and poetry.? (p. xxiii) and ?Walking in intact animals is not controlled by an abstraction but in a continual dialogue with the periphery?What sculpts movement patterns are these peripheral demands, not cartoons of the movement that exist beforehand?Cats and humans do not walk in abstractions. They walk in a gravity-dominated, variable, and changing world for different functional purposes. ?(p. 9) and ?In chicks, as in frogs and humans, a dialogue with the periphery is an essential motor, driving developmental change.? (p. 19) I wonder if Hutto and McGivern would call this radical. Henry > On Jan 6, 2015, at 10:36 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > I thought this short article "How embodied is Cognition?" by Daniel Hutto > might be a nice piece to bring together with the pre-frontal discussion in > the other thread (not as counterpoint but as complement): > > https://www.academia.edu/9614435/How_Embodied_Is_Cognition > > Here is a teaser: > "E is the letter, if not the word, in today?s sciences of mind. E > adjectives proliferate. Nowadays it is hard to avoid claims that cognition > ? perceiving, imagining, decision-making, planning ? is best understood in > E terms of some sort. The list of E-terms is long: embodied, enactive, > extended, embedded, ecological, engaged, emotional, expressive, emergent > and so on. This short piece explains: the big idea behind this movement; > how it is inspired by empirical findings; why it matters; and what > questions the field will face in the future. It focuses on the stronger and > weaker ways that..." > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jan 6 14:38:26 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 22:38:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net> <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu> <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net> , Message-ID: <1420583905222.7554@unm.edu> Hi Greg, Thanks for your fine explanation. I appreciate that you are sensitive to interpretation and that others read Marx differently, that there is no one way to read Marx. What I question is the notion that we have "lost" our connection to others. I believe that there is an appearance of "loss" and this expresses itself as alienation in modern society as long as we (each of us) adhere to a notion that we (each of us) are the master's of our individual destinies. As we I think we all know, in reality we are not only not master's of our destinies, but that death is inevitable; we are mere mortals. Yet, it appears an elitism has been created to support this ideology of individualism that is not sustainable for many different reasons and from many different angles. This elite class is its own collective, apparently with its own groupthink. I'm still not clear about the ideology of individualism though, what you describe is how the fetishism of the commodity creates alienation. So there is something implied but forgive me if I feel you didn't actually explain what it is. I'm trying to say something new, although I don't want to say I'm the first to say it. I'm proposing that alienation comes from a kind of censored language void of emotion and feeling, not only the environment and not only economically. Isn't it the case that the genesis for this alienation would come from the outside first before inside. Capitalism isn't a bad thing if it were to account for all the costs of making things, like pollution to clean air, taxes for safe roads and running water and sewage systems, as well as the cost for maintaining an intact ecology, and that's in terms of the material. It would also not be so bad if this system would recognize the needs of humans to sleep, to have good health, to be a part of community, to have a good education, to feel safe, and all the other trappings that are described as "socialism" as if needing these things were a slander against the collective elites. So the problem is not capitalism but alienation. Is it possible to have capitalism without alienation? Some would say not. I wonder about that. Because I wonder about it doesn't make me an adherent of the ideology of individualism, I hope. I agree that the distancing from laborers makes it easy to forget someone made the objects we use as tools. But isn't that also because no one tells us where these items come from? We have labels for our food, why not have labels on our products? Isn't that sort of happening with wanting to know where our food comes from? The whole "buy local" movement? For example, I won't shop at Walmart. Just thinking out loud. I know it's not that simple. If these notions, these ideologies, are pathological, and they run against our natures, I don't believe that we are so plastic to lose completely our facility for community, especially if community is a precious aspect of human experience and as much a part of what it is to be human as having eyes, or lungs. So speech seems to be the one possible antidote if not the only possible one, and this is why I agree with you that the CHAT is so important. Still, I'm wondering why no one is interested in exploring what I've said about the loss of emotion in speech? Kind regards, Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Tue Jan 6 15:38:55 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 10:38:55 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Brandom Reads Sellars In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54AC720F.9070102@mira.net> http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674187283 I think Robert Brandom is worth a read. He criticises analytical philosophy very much from within and in the language of analytical philosophy, which makes him readable for a lot of scientists and philosophers in the English-speaking world. So if you like Sellars, this book would be highly recommended. There are aspects of CHAT where we find Brandom as an ally. Personally, I've had my fill of Brandom, but if you haven't read him, and you are not averse to arguments about how many angels sit on the head of a pin from time to time (I mean arguments about psychology that never refer to an empirical finding or a practical need, but move entirely within the sphere of logical argument), then this is the book for you. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Larry Purss wrote: > Andy > Anew book by Brandom titled "From Empiricism to Expressivism" has just been > published. Here is a blub: > > The American philosopher Wilfrid Sellars ranks as one of the leading > twentieth-century critics of empiricism?a philosophical approach to > knowledge that seeks to ground it in human sense experience. Sellars stood > in the forefront of a recoil within analytic philosophy from the > foundationalist assumptions of contemporary empiricists. *From Empiricism > to Expressivism* is a far-reaching reinterpretation of Sellars from one of > the philosopher?s most brilliant intellectual heirs. > > Unifying and extending Sellars?s most important ideas, Robert Brandom > constructs a theory of pragmatic expressivism which, in contrast to > empiricism, understands meaning and knowledge in terms of the role > expressions play in social practices. The key lies in Sellars?s radical > reworking of Kant?s idea of the categories: the idea that the expressive > job characteristic of many of the most important philosophical concepts is > not to describe or explain the empirical world but rather to make explicit > essential features of the conceptual framework that makes description and > explanation possible. > > Brandom reconciles otherwise disparate elements of Sellars?s system, > revealing a greater level of coherence and consistency in the philosopher?s > arguments against empiricism than has usually been acknowledged. *From > Empiricism to Expressivism* clarifies what Sellars had in mind when he > talked about moving analytic philosophy from its Humean to its Kantian > phase, and why such a move might be of crucial importance today. > > > I thought the concept of "expressive pragmaticism" may have relevance to > others > > > From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Tue Jan 6 19:44:06 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 21:44:06 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <1420583905222.7554@unm.edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net>,<1420529114704.73535@unm.edu> <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net>, , , , <1420583905222.7554@unm.edu> Message-ID: Message from Francine: Annalisa, Gregg, et al There is an ideology of individualism that predates Marx that is found in the writings of Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau. It is not based on the individual capitalist exploiting natural and human resources, on the contrary is based on inspiration from the natural world and social responsibility to others. I consider myself a latter day Transcendentalist. And there is also an ideology of the individual in the writings of Marcus Aurelius based on stoicism, drawing inspiration from nature, and moral duty to others. Both Emerson, Thoreau, and Aurelius valued self-reliance - that one should strive to consciously direct one's thoughts, behavior, and emotions in healthy and moral ways. They all felt moral responsibility for the welfare of others. The interesting thing about stoicism is that one learns it primarily by example while the inspiring quotes help solidify the concept. > From: annalisa@unm.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 22:38:26 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Hi Greg, > > Thanks for your fine explanation. > > I appreciate that you are sensitive to interpretation and that others read Marx differently, that there is no one way to read Marx. What I question is the notion that we have "lost" our connection to others. I believe that there is an appearance of "loss" and this expresses itself as alienation in modern society as long as we (each of us) adhere to a notion that we (each of us) are the master's of our individual destinies. > > As we I think we all know, in reality we are not only not master's of our destinies, but that death is inevitable; we are mere mortals. Yet, it appears an elitism has been created to support this ideology of individualism that is not sustainable for many different reasons and from many different angles. This elite class is its own collective, apparently with its own groupthink. > > I'm still not clear about the ideology of individualism though, what you describe is how the fetishism of the commodity creates alienation. So there is something implied but forgive me if I feel you didn't actually explain what it is. > > I'm trying to say something new, although I don't want to say I'm the first to say it. I'm proposing that alienation comes from a kind of censored language void of emotion and feeling, not only the environment and not only economically. Isn't it the case that the genesis for this alienation would come from the outside first before inside. Capitalism isn't a bad thing if it were to account for all the costs of making things, like pollution to clean air, taxes for safe roads and running water and sewage systems, as well as the cost for maintaining an intact ecology, and that's in terms of the material. It would also not be so bad if this system would recognize the needs of humans to sleep, to have good health, to be a part of community, to have a good education, to feel safe, and all the other trappings that are described as "socialism" as if needing these things were a slander against the collective elites. > > So the problem is not capitalism but alienation. Is it possible to have capitalism without alienation? Some would say not. I wonder about that. Because I wonder about it doesn't make me an adherent of the ideology of individualism, I hope. I agree that the distancing from laborers makes it easy to forget someone made the objects we use as tools. But isn't that also because no one tells us where these items come from? We have labels for our food, why not have labels on our products? Isn't that sort of happening with wanting to know where our food comes from? The whole "buy local" movement? For example, I won't shop at Walmart. > > Just thinking out loud. I know it's not that simple. > > If these notions, these ideologies, are pathological, and they run against our natures, I don't believe that we are so plastic to lose completely our facility for community, especially if community is a precious aspect of human experience and as much a part of what it is to be human as having eyes, or lungs. > > So speech seems to be the one possible antidote if not the only possible one, and this is why I agree with you that the CHAT is so important. > > Still, I'm wondering why no one is interested in exploring what I've said about the loss of emotion in speech? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jan 6 19:59:14 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 03:59:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net>,<1420529114704.73535@unm.edu> <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net>, , , , <1420583905222.7554@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1420603153290.5112@unm.edu> Hi Francine, May I say how ironic it is that I inquire how so few comments have emerged about my several posts about the absence of emotion and feeling in speech, and VOIL? you bring up the stoics??? Other than that, I have a lot of time for Emerson and Thoreau, and living a moral life that lives closely and in reverence to nature. I mean there is something wise in evolution and it has been tested and retested over millions of years, so why we would try to fight mother nature on some rudimentary and untested theories for making extra coinage just seems pure folly. But that is me! Thanks for your post and bringing up the Transcendentalists. Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jan 6 21:17:51 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 21:17:51 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: How embodied is Cognition? In-Reply-To: <65CE5EFE-B56B-4199-8ABA-B6EC921EE208@gmail.com> References: <65CE5EFE-B56B-4199-8ABA-B6EC921EE208@gmail.com> Message-ID: This part sure sounds radical, Henry: in principle no difference between the processes engendering, walking, reaching, and looking for hidden objects and those resulting in mathematics and poetry.? (p. xxiii) On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 2:17 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Greg, > While reading about what Hutto and McGivern on ?radical E-approaches to > cognition I remembered reading a book by Esther Thelen and Linda Smith , A > Dynamic Systems Approach to the Development of Cognition and Action (1994). > Here are three quotes: > ?We conclude here that, as all mental activity is emergent, situated, > historical and embodied, there is in principle no difference between the > processes engendering, walking, reaching, and looking for hidden objects > and those resulting in mathematics and poetry.? (p. xxiii) > > and > > ?Walking in intact animals is not controlled by an abstraction but in a > continual dialogue with the periphery?What sculpts movement patterns are > these peripheral demands, not cartoons of the movement that exist > beforehand?Cats and humans do not walk in abstractions. They walk in a > gravity-dominated, variable, and changing world for different functional > purposes. ?(p. 9) > > and > > ?In chicks, as in frogs and humans, a dialogue with the periphery is an > essential motor, driving developmental change.? (p. 19) > > > I wonder if Hutto and McGivern would call this radical. > > Henry > > > > > > On Jan 6, 2015, at 10:36 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > > I thought this short article "How embodied is Cognition?" by Daniel Hutto > > might be a nice piece to bring together with the pre-frontal discussion > in > > the other thread (not as counterpoint but as complement): > > > > https://www.academia.edu/9614435/How_Embodied_Is_Cognition > > > > Here is a teaser: > > "E is the letter, if not the word, in today?s sciences of mind. E > > adjectives proliferate. Nowadays it is hard to avoid claims that > cognition > > ? perceiving, imagining, decision-making, planning ? is best understood > in > > E terms of some sort. The list of E-terms is long: embodied, enactive, > > extended, embedded, ecological, engaged, emotional, expressive, emergent > > and so on. This short piece explains: the big idea behind this movement; > > how it is inspired by empirical findings; why it matters; and what > > questions the field will face in the future. It focuses on the stronger > and > > weaker ways that..." > > -greg > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From carolmacdon@gmail.com Tue Jan 6 22:26:13 2015 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 08:26:13 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: How embodied is Cognition? In-Reply-To: References: <65CE5EFE-B56B-4199-8ABA-B6EC921EE208@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Mike I think it's a bit *too *radical. We share walking, reaching, looking for hidden objects with at least our primate relatives (for the third one) and other animals. However, we are led to believe that our use of language, although originally, and in an ongoing way, rooted in our experience of the world achieves something qualitatively unique. By the I mean syntax, phonology. And then there is metacognition. So, I think this embodied notion bears some discussion. Carol On 7 January 2015 at 07:17, mike cole wrote: > This part sure sounds radical, Henry: > > in principle no difference between the processes engendering, walking, > reaching, and looking for hidden objects and those resulting in mathematics > and poetry." (p. xxiii) > > On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 2:17 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > Greg, > > While reading about what Hutto and McGivern on "radical E-approaches to > > cognition I remembered reading a book by Esther Thelen and Linda Smith , > A > > Dynamic Systems Approach to the Development of Cognition and Action > (1994). > > Here are three quotes: > > "We conclude here that, as all mental activity is emergent, situated, > > historical and embodied, there is in principle no difference between the > > processes engendering, walking, reaching, and looking for hidden objects > > and those resulting in mathematics and poetry." (p. xxiii) > > > > and > > > > "Walking in intact animals is not controlled by an abstraction but in a > > continual dialogue with the periphery...What sculpts movement patterns are > > these peripheral demands, not cartoons of the movement that exist > > beforehand...Cats and humans do not walk in abstractions. They walk in a > > gravity-dominated, variable, and changing world for different functional > > purposes. "(p. 9) > > > > and > > > > "In chicks, as in frogs and humans, a dialogue with the periphery is an > > essential motor, driving developmental change." (p. 19) > > > > > > I wonder if Hutto and McGivern would call this radical. > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 6, 2015, at 10:36 AM, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > > > > > I thought this short article "How embodied is Cognition?" by Daniel > Hutto > > > might be a nice piece to bring together with the pre-frontal discussion > > in > > > the other thread (not as counterpoint but as complement): > > > > > > https://www.academia.edu/9614435/How_Embodied_Is_Cognition > > > > > > Here is a teaser: > > > "E is the letter, if not the word, in today's sciences of mind. E > > > adjectives proliferate. Nowadays it is hard to avoid claims that > > cognition > > > - perceiving, imagining, decision-making, planning - is best understood > > in > > > E terms of some sort. The list of E-terms is long: embodied, enactive, > > > extended, embedded, ecological, engaged, emotional, expressive, > emergent > > > and so on. This short piece explains: the big idea behind this > movement; > > > how it is inspired by empirical findings; why it matters; and what > > > questions the field will face in the future. It focuses on the stronger > > and > > > weaker ways that..." > > > -greg > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Jan 6 22:33:15 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 23:33:15 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: How embodied is Cognition? In-Reply-To: References: <65CE5EFE-B56B-4199-8ABA-B6EC921EE208@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mike, That?s what I thought. I especially like the image of ?dialogue with the periphery? as ?the motor driving developmental change? of all living things, all of creation really, as Darwin sees it. Reaching out. Call and response. Not just embodied, but agency, actively seeking connection temporally and spatially. I love Hutto and and McGivern?s final paragraph: "Given these challenges it is important to note that radical E-approaches are often motivated by a deeper philosophical concern. There are serious grounds for thinking that we may never get a convincing explanation of how content-bearing mental representations fit into the natural order ? not even at the end of science. On standard realistic assumptions, if this turns out to be true ? barring mysterianism ? this gives us reason to be skeptical about the existence of mental representations and the idea that they play a part in causally explaining behavior. However, mental representations might be understood literally or fictionally. This opens up the possibility that even if mental representations do not, in fact, literally exist, positing them may still play some other crucial explanatory role in our accounts of cognition. However, its proponents encounter other powerful worries ? such as explaining what ultimately grounds the content of the models that posit mental representations if not mental representations.? This, it seems to me, isn?t where science ends, but where science and art blend in creativity. Is this radical? ?Mysterianism?? Henry > On Jan 6, 2015, at 10:17 PM, mike cole wrote: > > This part sure sounds radical, Henry: > > in principle no difference between the processes engendering, walking, > reaching, and looking for hidden objects and those resulting in mathematics > and poetry.? (p. xxiii) > > On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 2:17 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Greg, >> While reading about what Hutto and McGivern on ?radical E-approaches to >> cognition I remembered reading a book by Esther Thelen and Linda Smith , A >> Dynamic Systems Approach to the Development of Cognition and Action (1994). >> Here are three quotes: >> ?We conclude here that, as all mental activity is emergent, situated, >> historical and embodied, there is in principle no difference between the >> processes engendering, walking, reaching, and looking for hidden objects >> and those resulting in mathematics and poetry.? (p. xxiii) >> >> and >> >> ?Walking in intact animals is not controlled by an abstraction but in a >> continual dialogue with the periphery?What sculpts movement patterns are >> these peripheral demands, not cartoons of the movement that exist >> beforehand?Cats and humans do not walk in abstractions. They walk in a >> gravity-dominated, variable, and changing world for different functional >> purposes. ?(p. 9) >> >> and >> >> ?In chicks, as in frogs and humans, a dialogue with the periphery is an >> essential motor, driving developmental change.? (p. 19) >> >> >> I wonder if Hutto and McGivern would call this radical. >> >> Henry >> >> >> >> >>> On Jan 6, 2015, at 10:36 AM, Greg Thompson >> wrote: >>> >>> I thought this short article "How embodied is Cognition?" by Daniel Hutto >>> might be a nice piece to bring together with the pre-frontal discussion >> in >>> the other thread (not as counterpoint but as complement): >>> >>> https://www.academia.edu/9614435/How_Embodied_Is_Cognition >>> >>> Here is a teaser: >>> "E is the letter, if not the word, in today?s sciences of mind. E >>> adjectives proliferate. Nowadays it is hard to avoid claims that >> cognition >>> ? perceiving, imagining, decision-making, planning ? is best understood >> in >>> E terms of some sort. The list of E-terms is long: embodied, enactive, >>> extended, embedded, ecological, engaged, emotional, expressive, emergent >>> and so on. This short piece explains: the big idea behind this movement; >>> how it is inspired by empirical findings; why it matters; and what >>> questions the field will face in the future. It focuses on the stronger >> and >>> weaker ways that..." >>> -greg >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Tue Jan 6 22:56:33 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 00:56:33 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <1420603153290.5112@unm.edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , , , , <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, , , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, , , <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net>, <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu>, <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net>, , , , , , , , <1420583905222.7554@unm.edu>, , , <1420603153290.5112@unm.edu> Message-ID: Message from Francine: Annalisa, I do not consider being stoic the same as being a Vulcan (like Mr. Spock in Star Trek). To me being stoic means that you are not daunted by the fact that there is pain and pleasure, that life is not fair, and that death is part of life. Stoicism does not mean the absence of emotion or compassion. Here are some quotes from Marcus Aurelius: "When you wake up in the morning think what a precious privilege it is to be alive - to breath, to think, to enjoy, to love." "The happiness of your life depends on the quality of your thoughts." "Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom fate brings you together, but do so with all your heart." "We are the other of the other." "Kindness is unconquerable." While some people might interpret "accept the things to which fate binds you" as meaning do not try to change your station in life (be a happy slave), I would interpret it as meaning that that even though you try to accomplish something you do not have full control of the outcome. You might not be able to bring about the change you wanted - you might be an agent of change in ways you did not intend or imagine. > From: annalisa@unm.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 03:59:14 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Hi Francine, > > May I say how ironic it is that I inquire how so few comments have emerged about my several posts about the absence of emotion and feeling in speech, and VOIL? you bring up the stoics??? > > Other than that, I have a lot of time for Emerson and Thoreau, and living a moral life that lives closely and in reverence to nature. I mean there is something wise in evolution and it has been tested and retested over millions of years, so why we would try to fight mother nature on some rudimentary and untested theories for making extra coinage just seems pure folly. But that is me! > > Thanks for your post and bringing up the Transcendentalists. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Jan 6 23:07:24 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 23:07:24 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: How embodied is Cognition? In-Reply-To: References: <65CE5EFE-B56B-4199-8ABA-B6EC921EE208@gmail.com> Message-ID: To add to what may be *radical* [going to the root] I was pulled in by the notion of *family resemblance* in this section: "It has encouraged some to question whether perceiving, and cognition, is best understood as neatly carved off from temporally extended embodied activity. It is now a serious hypothesis that cognition may not be wholly brainbound and wider embodied engagements may replace or reduce the need to posit calculations over mental representations when explaining how we complete many, if not all, cognitive tasks. The possibility that thinking may occur in action and not only in the head or the brain is under serious discussion and investigation. The E-movement, which first established itself in the early 1990s, has begun to mature and has now surely come of age. Even so there is no single agreed upon framework. The various E-approaches are best understood as family. The members of the family all have some things in common. They are related in terms of their common origins ? usually in resisting traditional ways of thinking about mind and cognition more or less staunchly. But, as with many families, there are also some divisions and certainly not all members of the family subscribe to anything like a single unifying set of central tenets. For the most part, although different members of the E-family might be able to sit at the table together and to agree on the importance of certain issues it is not as if all members of the family see eye to eye on every issue. There are some disagreements, even quite fierce disagreements, on matters of importance amongst members of the E-family. This is, of course, where the nice philosophical work needs to be done." If the e-movement, [movement as sharing a family resemblance] and having now come of age, may productively engage in philosophical work [and art] with other traditions. Annalisa has asked about feelings and Raymond Williams mentions the social reality of *structures of feeling* that express a *felt mood* as a *sense* that is *relevant* that has not as yet reached a level of conscious articulation. Could this e-movement be an example of this *structure of feeling* rising to a level of articulation? Larry On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 10:33 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Mike, > That?s what I thought. I especially like the image of ?dialogue with the > periphery? as ?the motor driving developmental change? of all living > things, all of creation really, as Darwin sees it. Reaching out. Call and > response. Not just embodied, but agency, actively seeking connection > temporally and spatially. I love Hutto and and McGivern?s final paragraph: > > "Given these challenges it is important to note that radical E-approaches > are often motivated by a deeper philosophical concern. There are serious > grounds for thinking that we may never get a convincing explanation of how > content-bearing mental representations fit into the natural order ? not > even at the end of science. On standard realistic assumptions, if this > turns out to be true ? barring mysterianism ? this gives us reason to be > skeptical about the existence of mental representations and the idea that > they play a part in causally explaining behavior. However, mental > representations might be understood literally or fictionally. This opens up > the possibility that even if mental representations do not, in fact, > literally exist, positing them may still play some other crucial > explanatory role in our accounts of cognition. However, its proponents > encounter other powerful worries ? such as explaining what ultimately > grounds the content of the models that posit mental representations if not > mental representations.? > > This, it seems to me, isn?t where science ends, but where science and art > blend in creativity. Is this radical? ?Mysterianism?? > > Henry > > > > > On Jan 6, 2015, at 10:17 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > This part sure sounds radical, Henry: > > > > in principle no difference between the processes engendering, walking, > > reaching, and looking for hidden objects and those resulting in > mathematics > > and poetry.? (p. xxiii) > > > > On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 2:17 PM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > >> Greg, > >> While reading about what Hutto and McGivern on ?radical E-approaches to > >> cognition I remembered reading a book by Esther Thelen and Linda Smith > , A > >> Dynamic Systems Approach to the Development of Cognition and Action > (1994). > >> Here are three quotes: > >> ?We conclude here that, as all mental activity is emergent, situated, > >> historical and embodied, there is in principle no difference between the > >> processes engendering, walking, reaching, and looking for hidden objects > >> and those resulting in mathematics and poetry.? (p. xxiii) > >> > >> and > >> > >> ?Walking in intact animals is not controlled by an abstraction but in a > >> continual dialogue with the periphery?What sculpts movement patterns are > >> these peripheral demands, not cartoons of the movement that exist > >> beforehand?Cats and humans do not walk in abstractions. They walk in a > >> gravity-dominated, variable, and changing world for different functional > >> purposes. ?(p. 9) > >> > >> and > >> > >> ?In chicks, as in frogs and humans, a dialogue with the periphery is an > >> essential motor, driving developmental change.? (p. 19) > >> > >> > >> I wonder if Hutto and McGivern would call this radical. > >> > >> Henry > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Jan 6, 2015, at 10:36 AM, Greg Thompson > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> I thought this short article "How embodied is Cognition?" by Daniel > Hutto > >>> might be a nice piece to bring together with the pre-frontal discussion > >> in > >>> the other thread (not as counterpoint but as complement): > >>> > >>> https://www.academia.edu/9614435/How_Embodied_Is_Cognition > >>> > >>> Here is a teaser: > >>> "E is the letter, if not the word, in today?s sciences of mind. E > >>> adjectives proliferate. Nowadays it is hard to avoid claims that > >> cognition > >>> ? perceiving, imagining, decision-making, planning ? is best understood > >> in > >>> E terms of some sort. The list of E-terms is long: embodied, enactive, > >>> extended, embedded, ecological, engaged, emotional, expressive, > emergent > >>> and so on. This short piece explains: the big idea behind this > movement; > >>> how it is inspired by empirical findings; why it matters; and what > >>> questions the field will face in the future. It focuses on the stronger > >> and > >>> weaker ways that..." > >>> -greg > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>> Assistant Professor > >>> Department of Anthropology > >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>> Brigham Young University > >>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Jan 6 23:14:48 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 23:14:48 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net> <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu> <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net> <1420583905222.7554@unm.edu> <1420603153290.5112@unm.edu> Message-ID: Francine, your comment points to another concept [disposition or character] I would interpret it as meaning that that even though you try to accomplish something you do not have full control of the outcome. You might not be able to bring about the change you wanted - you might be an agent of change in ways you did not intend or imagine. As you interpret stoicism, the development of character seems central. To hold to a *path* of kindness which is unconquerable On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 10:56 PM, larry smolucha wrote: > > > > Message from Francine: > > Annalisa, > > I do not consider being stoic the same as being a Vulcan (like Mr. Spock > in Star Trek). To me being stoic means that you are not daunted by the > fact that there is pain and pleasure, that life is not fair, and that > death is part of life. > Stoicism does not mean the absence of emotion or compassion. > > Here are some quotes from Marcus Aurelius: > > "When you wake up in the morning think what a precious privilege it is to > be alive - > to breath, to think, to enjoy, to love." > > "The happiness of your life depends on the quality of your thoughts." > > "Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom > fate brings you together, but do so with all your heart." > > "We are the other of the other." > > "Kindness is unconquerable." > > While some people might interpret "accept the things to which fate binds > you" > as meaning do not try to change your station in life (be a happy slave), I > would > interpret it as meaning that that even though you try to accomplish > something > you do not have full control of the outcome. You might not be able to > bring > about the change you wanted - you might be an agent of change in ways > you did not intend or imagine. > > > From: annalisa@unm.edu > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 03:59:14 +0000 > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > Hi Francine, > > > > May I say how ironic it is that I inquire how so few comments have > emerged about my several posts about the absence of emotion and feeling in > speech, and VOIL? you bring up the stoics??? > > > > Other than that, I have a lot of time for Emerson and Thoreau, and > living a moral life that lives closely and in reverence to nature. I mean > there is something wise in evolution and it has been tested and retested > over millions of years, so why we would try to fight mother nature on some > rudimentary and untested theories for making extra coinage just seems pure > folly. But that is me! > > > > Thanks for your post and bringing up the Transcendentalists. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Jan 7 08:19:33 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 09:19:33 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] More on the possibilities of connection Message-ID: Yes the possibilities are everywhere, check out this art installment that connects people from New York to people in Tehran: http://www.psfk.com/2014/12/step-inside-an-nyc-shipping-container-and-chat-with-someone-in-tehran.html Possibilities indeed! -greg p.s., those connected to the UCSD community may recall a local version of this that sought to span the chasm between university and low-income community. -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Jan 7 09:07:22 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 09:07:22 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: More on the possibilities of connection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is really interesting to me, Greg. Thanks for noticing it and sending it to the list. If others are interested in the issue of creating forms of joint activity through digital media across conflicting international divides, our own attempt to do so in 1983 connecting Moscow and San Diego might be of interest. A PBS video program that provides one view of what transpired can be found at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiF4SwTmVBw There is an academic report about this work at the lchc incomplete wiki in Chapter 10 http://lchc.ucsd.edu/wiki mike On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Yes the possibilities are everywhere, check out this art installment that > connects people from New York to people in Tehran: > > http://www.psfk.com/2014/12/step-inside-an-nyc-shipping-container-and-chat-with-someone-in-tehran.html > > Possibilities indeed! > -greg > p.s., those connected to the UCSD community may recall a local version of > this that sought to span the chasm between university and low-income > community. > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Jan 7 09:07:22 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 09:07:22 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: More on the possibilities of connection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is really interesting to me, Greg. Thanks for noticing it and sending it to the list. If others are interested in the issue of creating forms of joint activity through digital media across conflicting international divides, our own attempt to do so in 1983 connecting Moscow and San Diego might be of interest. A PBS video program that provides one view of what transpired can be found at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiF4SwTmVBw There is an academic report about this work at the lchc incomplete wiki in Chapter 10 http://lchc.ucsd.edu/wiki mike On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Yes the possibilities are everywhere, check out this art installment that > connects people from New York to people in Tehran: > > http://www.psfk.com/2014/12/step-inside-an-nyc-shipping-container-and-chat-with-someone-in-tehran.html > > Possibilities indeed! > -greg > p.s., those connected to the UCSD community may recall a local version of > this that sought to span the chasm between university and low-income > community. > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From l.woods@iicedu.org Wed Jan 7 06:22:13 2015 From: l.woods@iicedu.org (L inda Woods) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 14:22:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Ireland International Conference on Education (IICE-2015): Call for Submissions! Message-ID: <257172295.633855.1420640533595.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbaltgw56.schlund.de> Apologies for cross-postings. Kindly email this call for papers to your colleagues, faculty members and postgraduate students. Call for Papers, Extended Abstracts, Posters, Tutorials and Workshops! ******************************************************************* Ireland International Conference on Education (IICE-2015) April 20-22, 2015 Dublin, Ireland www.iicedu.org ******************************************************************* The IICE is an international refereed conference dedicated to the advancement of the theory and practices in education. The IICE promotes collaborative excellence between academicians and professionals from Education. The aim of IICE is to provide an opportunity for academicians and professionals from various educational fields with cross-disciplinary interests to bridge the knowledge gap, promote research esteem and the evolution of pedagogy. The IICE 2015 invites research papers that encompass conceptual analysis, design implementation and performance evaluation. All the accepted papers will appear in the proceedings and modified version of selected papers will be published in special issues peer reviewed journals. The topics in IICE-2015 include but are not confined to the following areas: *Academic Advising and Counselling *Art Education *Adult Education *APD/Listening and Acoustics in Education Environment *Business Education *Counsellor Education *Curriculum, Research and Development *Competitive Skills *Continuing Education *Distance Education *Early Childhood Education *Educational Administration *Educational Foundations *Educational Psychology *Educational Technology *Education Policy and Leadership *Elementary Education *E-Learning *E-Manufacturing *ESL/TESL *E-Society *Geographical Education *Geographic information systems *Health Education *Higher Education *History *Home Education *Human Computer Interaction *Human Resource Development *Indigenous Education *ICT Education *Internet technologies *Imaginative Education *Kinesiology & Leisure Science *K12 *Language Education *Mathematics Education *Mobile Applications *Multi-Virtual Environment *Music Education *Pedagogy *Physical Education (PE) *Reading Education *Writing Education *Religion and Education Studies *Research Assessment Exercise (RAE) *Rural Education *Science Education *Secondary Education *Second life Educators *Social Studies Education *Special Education *Student Affairs *Teacher Education *Cross-disciplinary areas of Education *Ubiquitous Computing *Virtual Reality *Wireless applications *Other Areas of Education - You can submit your research paper at http://www.iicedu.org/IICE-2015%20April/Paper%20Submission.html or email it to papers-2015april@iicedu.org Important Dates: *Abstract and Extended Abstract (Work in Progress) Submission Date: January 25, 2015 *Notification of Abstract and Extended Abstract (Work in Progress) Acceptance/Rejection Date: February 05, 2015 *Research Paper, Student Paper, Case Study, Report Submission Date: February 02, 2015 *Notification of Research Paper, Student Paper, Case Study, Report Acceptance /Rejection Date: February 15, 2015 *Proposal for Workshops Submission Date: January 20, 2015 *Notification of Workshop Acceptance/Rejection Date: January 31, 2015 *Posters Proposal Submission Date: February 15, 2015 *Notification of Posters Acceptance/Rejection: February 25, 2015 *Camera Ready Paper Due: March 01, 2015 *Early Bird Registration (Authors and Participants): December 30, 2014 - March 15, 2015 *Late Bird Registration Deadline (Authors only): March 16, 2015 - March 30, 2015 *Late Bird Registration Deadline (Participants only): March 16, 2015 - April 14, 2015 *Conference Dates: April 20-22, 2015 For further information please visit IICE-2015 at www.iicedu.org From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Jan 7 10:38:51 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 08:38:51 -1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net> <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu> <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net> <1420583905222.7554@unm.edu> <1420603153290.5112@unm.edu> Message-ID: Structures of feeling is a notion of a *shared style* of social feelings. Susan sontag makes a similar observation consider this observation by Susan Sontag from her essay, "On Style": If we see [our lives] from the outside, as the influence and popular dissemination of the social sciences and psychiatry has persuaded more and more people to do, we view ourselves as instances of generalities, and in so doing become profoundly and painfully alienated from our own experience and our humanity: On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 9:14 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Francine, > your comment points to another concept [disposition or character] > > I would interpret it as meaning that that even though you try to > accomplish something > you do not have full control of the outcome. You might not be able to > bring > about the change you wanted - you might be an agent of change in ways > you did not intend or imagine. > > As you interpret stoicism, the development of character seems central. To > hold to a *path* of kindness which is unconquerable > > > > On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 10:56 PM, larry smolucha > wrote: > >> >> >> >> Message from Francine: >> >> Annalisa, >> >> I do not consider being stoic the same as being a Vulcan (like Mr. Spock >> in Star Trek). To me being stoic means that you are not daunted by the >> fact that there is pain and pleasure, that life is not fair, and that >> death is part of life. >> Stoicism does not mean the absence of emotion or compassion. >> >> Here are some quotes from Marcus Aurelius: >> >> "When you wake up in the morning think what a precious privilege it is to >> be alive - >> to breath, to think, to enjoy, to love." >> >> "The happiness of your life depends on the quality of your thoughts." >> >> "Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom >> fate brings you together, but do so with all your heart." >> >> "We are the other of the other." >> >> "Kindness is unconquerable." >> >> While some people might interpret "accept the things to which fate binds >> you" >> as meaning do not try to change your station in life (be a happy slave), >> I would >> interpret it as meaning that that even though you try to accomplish >> something >> you do not have full control of the outcome. You might not be able to >> bring >> about the change you wanted - you might be an agent of change in ways >> you did not intend or imagine. >> >> > From: annalisa@unm.edu >> > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> > Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 03:59:14 +0000 >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? >> > >> > Hi Francine, >> > >> > May I say how ironic it is that I inquire how so few comments have >> emerged about my several posts about the absence of emotion and feeling in >> speech, and VOIL? you bring up the stoics??? >> > >> > Other than that, I have a lot of time for Emerson and Thoreau, and >> living a moral life that lives closely and in reverence to nature. I mean >> there is something wise in evolution and it has been tested and retested >> over millions of years, so why we would try to fight mother nature on some >> rudimentary and untested theories for making extra coinage just seems pure >> folly. But that is me! >> > >> > Thanks for your post and bringing up the Transcendentalists. >> > >> > Kind regards, >> > >> > Annalisa >> > >> >> >> > > From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jan 7 13:58:15 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 21:58:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , , , , <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, , , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, , , <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net>, <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu>, <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net>, , , , , , , , <1420583905222.7554@unm.edu>, , , <1420603153290.5112@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1420667895315.81216@unm.edu> Hi Francine under the cape of LarryS! :) I enjoy your explanation and I am even inspired by these quotes! Not being educated in matters stoic, I looked it up here. See the second definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stoicism ----------- 1. a systematic philosophy, dating from around 300 b.c., that held the principles of logical thought to reflect a cosmic reason instantiated in nature. 2. (lowercase) conduct conforming to the precepts of the Stoics, as repression of emotion and indifference to pleasure or pain. ----------- Sorry to fall into the pothole of definitions, but I just wanted to show that that's why I'd said what I'd said. My utmost favorite quote is: "Kindness is unconquerable." My second favorite is: "We are the other of the other." But I would like to change it a little to say: "I am the other of the other." Or for those who are afraid to start sentences with "I" how about: "The other of the other is me." I'm not sure how this all lines up with the ideology of individualism, as the poll is still out on that, however I would like to offer to the list the concept of Karmayoga, as that seems to be relevant to what you have posted, Francine. Karma -of course everyone has some idea what that word means- is Sanskrit for "action." It is the idea that for every action there is an equal reaction. There are many different kinds of actions and they manifest in causes and effects. Without meaning to conjure the memory of Donald Rumsfeld, there are unknown causes and unknown effects. Then there are known causes and known effects. There are unknown causes and known effects, and last there are known causes with unknown effects. So that just about covers the universe, I think. The concept of karma in Vedic thought is a belief, because there can be no way to verify many of these connections. This is widely understood and accepted. BUT! given what we can perceive known causes and known effects we have been able to determine that there is a relationship. The rest has to do with inference and belief because there is nothing more to do to verify beyond those causes and effects that are known. Newton did determine this relationship in his third law of motion, by the way. :) Karma is the basis for right action, "right" meaning "ethical," "proper" etc. as a guide to live properly. Given the third law of motion, "what goes around comes around" is a common way to discuss karma in a pop-psychology sort of way. So given that I have control over my actions (if I do), then what I do will come back to me in some way or another. If the effect does not return to me in some fashion, then it means that there is an obstruction to its reaction or my perception if the reaction is obstructed, or that it will manifest at some point in my future. There is no IF it comes around, but WHEN. (Remember Newton's third law!) Given that there is no way to know for sure WHEN a reaction will happen, then I must cultivate some detachment concerning when the reaction will happen. Karmayoga is this attitude one has toward one's own actions, which is different than the doing of the action. It is the acceptance that I have control over my actions, but I have NO control over the results of my actions. This is very hard for people to accept, particularly those who adhere to the belief one is the master of one's destiny (ideology of individualism? I don't know). When I first learned about Karmayoga it was hard as an American to get my head around it. But as I sat with it, I realized there is a lot of freedom in this attitude. It is psychologically clean. For those who doubt, consider the bow and arrow. I have control over pointing the arrow and letting go the bow string. But once the arrow leaves the bow, I have no control over the arrow. Even if I have good aim, the arrow may not hit the mark, so when I have let go the bow, I also let go my control. Part of that control is emotional as well. Letting go means letting go. I can hope the arrow will hit the mark, but I must accept the possibility it may not. This detachment is not always easy to practice, because there is always a desire for things to turn out the way I want them to turn out. If it doesn't, the only thing I can do is try again. and again. and again. With each time, I try different or I try better. After all, one can do something, not do it, or do it differently. As Einstein has said, insanity is doing the same thing and hoping for different results. Essentially, Karmayoga is the practice of attachment to the act but no attachment to the outcome. Not that I don't care, or that I don't want an outcome that favors me, but that I understand where my sphere of influence ends and where the rest is out of my hands. So if one always practices good action, then one's mind is fairly free of worry, much baggage is unloaded. I can tell you from personal experience this is so! If one practices Karmayoga one focuses upon choosing the best possible actions, to set up the bow and the arrow optimally and once performing the act, to let go the bow and the arrow and wait for the result, hoping for the best, but not being disappointed or too excited about the outcome. Francine, it sounds a little stoic, no? Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jan 7 14:01:32 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 22:01:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net> <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu> <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net> <1420583905222.7554@unm.edu> <1420603153290.5112@unm.edu> , Message-ID: <1420668091740.56555@unm.edu> Larry! I read your message next (after sending my previous post) and thought how many circles there are being turned in this thread that are echoes of those circles! I hope I'm hearing you, and thanks for listening! Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Jan 7 14:22:12 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 14:22:12 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <1420668091740.56555@unm.edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net> <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu> <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net> <1420583905222.7554@unm.edu> <1420603153290.5112@unm.edu> <1420668091740.56555@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, The question: Do *each* of us have to make up our own mind? An alternative question asks does *interpretive community* make up our minds? The power of testimonio as I read the hybrid nature of this *ethical hermeneutics* is that each of us can only make up our *individual* mind in the company of others and through the *witnessing* of others. There is a quality to this type of *minding* that transcends individuali(s) but is not collective group think. It is truly a *third space* that is developing in response to individualism. The E-movement in cognitive science [conservative, liberal or radical is exploring this *third space* Larry On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Larry! > > I read your message next (after sending my previous post) and thought how > many circles there are being turned in this thread that are echoes of those > circles! > > I hope I'm hearing you, and thanks for listening! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Jan 7 14:36:25 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 15:36:25 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: More on the possibilities of connection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, I've seen it before but I love this video! The hair! Also, do you have links to the stuff that was going on between UCSD and the two other locations? The stuff with the visual artist guy about "corridors" of something or other? That was what I first thought of... -greg On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 10:07 AM, mike cole wrote: > That is really interesting to me, Greg. Thanks for noticing it and sending > it to the list. > > If others are interested in the issue of creating forms of joint activity > through digital media > across conflicting international divides, our own attempt to do so in 1983 > connecting > Moscow and San Diego might be of interest. A PBS video program that > provides one view of what transpired can be found at > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiF4SwTmVBw > > There is an academic report about this work at the lchc incomplete wiki in > Chapter 10 > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/wiki > > mike > > > > On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Yes the possibilities are everywhere, check out this art installment that > > connects people from New York to people in Tehran: > > > > > http://www.psfk.com/2014/12/step-inside-an-nyc-shipping-container-and-chat-with-someone-in-tehran.html > > > > Possibilities indeed! > > -greg > > p.s., those connected to the UCSD community may recall a local version of > > this that sought to span the chasm between university and low-income > > community. > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Jan 7 14:36:25 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 15:36:25 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: More on the possibilities of connection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, I've seen it before but I love this video! The hair! Also, do you have links to the stuff that was going on between UCSD and the two other locations? The stuff with the visual artist guy about "corridors" of something or other? That was what I first thought of... -greg On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 10:07 AM, mike cole wrote: > That is really interesting to me, Greg. Thanks for noticing it and sending > it to the list. > > If others are interested in the issue of creating forms of joint activity > through digital media > across conflicting international divides, our own attempt to do so in 1983 > connecting > Moscow and San Diego might be of interest. A PBS video program that > provides one view of what transpired can be found at > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiF4SwTmVBw > > There is an academic report about this work at the lchc incomplete wiki in > Chapter 10 > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/wiki > > mike > > > > On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Yes the possibilities are everywhere, check out this art installment that > > connects people from New York to people in Tehran: > > > > > http://www.psfk.com/2014/12/step-inside-an-nyc-shipping-container-and-chat-with-someone-in-tehran.html > > > > Possibilities indeed! > > -greg > > p.s., those connected to the UCSD community may recall a local version of > > this that sought to span the chasm between university and low-income > > community. > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Jan 7 14:56:46 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 14:56:46 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: More on the possibilities of connection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the close observation and comments on the male aging process, Greg. I believe the other project you are referring to can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jATS7gZGJ8s In between there is this: http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/velham.html On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 2:36 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Mike, I've seen it before but I love this video! > The hair! > > Also, do you have links to the stuff that was going on between UCSD and the > two other locations? The stuff with the visual artist guy about "corridors" > of something or other? That was what I first thought of... > > -greg > > > > > On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 10:07 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > That is really interesting to me, Greg. Thanks for noticing it and > sending > > it to the list. > > > > If others are interested in the issue of creating forms of joint activity > > through digital media > > across conflicting international divides, our own attempt to do so in > 1983 > > connecting > > Moscow and San Diego might be of interest. A PBS video program that > > provides one view of what transpired can be found at > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiF4SwTmVBw > > > > There is an academic report about this work at the lchc incomplete wiki > in > > Chapter 10 > > > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/wiki > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Greg Thompson > > > wrote: > > > > > Yes the possibilities are everywhere, check out this art installment > that > > > connects people from New York to people in Tehran: > > > > > > > > > http://www.psfk.com/2014/12/step-inside-an-nyc-shipping-container-and-chat-with-someone-in-tehran.html > > > > > > Possibilities indeed! > > > -greg > > > p.s., those connected to the UCSD community may recall a local version > of > > > this that sought to span the chasm between university and low-income > > > community. > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Jan 7 14:56:46 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 14:56:46 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: More on the possibilities of connection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the close observation and comments on the male aging process, Greg. I believe the other project you are referring to can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jATS7gZGJ8s In between there is this: http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/velham.html On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 2:36 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Mike, I've seen it before but I love this video! > The hair! > > Also, do you have links to the stuff that was going on between UCSD and the > two other locations? The stuff with the visual artist guy about "corridors" > of something or other? That was what I first thought of... > > -greg > > > > > On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 10:07 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > That is really interesting to me, Greg. Thanks for noticing it and > sending > > it to the list. > > > > If others are interested in the issue of creating forms of joint activity > > through digital media > > across conflicting international divides, our own attempt to do so in > 1983 > > connecting > > Moscow and San Diego might be of interest. A PBS video program that > > provides one view of what transpired can be found at > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiF4SwTmVBw > > > > There is an academic report about this work at the lchc incomplete wiki > in > > Chapter 10 > > > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/wiki > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Greg Thompson > > > wrote: > > > > > Yes the possibilities are everywhere, check out this art installment > that > > > connects people from New York to people in Tehran: > > > > > > > > > http://www.psfk.com/2014/12/step-inside-an-nyc-shipping-container-and-chat-with-someone-in-tehran.html > > > > > > Possibilities indeed! > > > -greg > > > p.s., those connected to the UCSD community may recall a local version > of > > > this that sought to span the chasm between university and low-income > > > community. > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Wed Jan 7 16:15:34 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 18:15:34 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <1420667895315.81216@unm.edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , , , , , ,,<000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, , , , , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, , , , , <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net>, <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu>,,<54AB9279.3030108@mira.net>, , , , , , , , , , ,,<1420583905222.7554@unm.edu>, , , , , <1420603153290.5112@unm.edu>, , , <1420667895315.81216@unm.edu> Message-ID: Hi Annalisa, Google 'quotes from Marcus Aurelius' and you will find many more quotes that are just as insightful. I think the online dictionary that you got the definitions of stoicism from was superficial and misleading. In the Wikipedia entry under basic tenets it mentions formal logic but that is misleading . . . because the next paragraph states "The philosophy holds that becoming a clear and unbiased thinker allows one to understand the universal reason (logos)." Logos is not necessarily the same as the Aristotelian logic of Mr. Spock, it might even have a slight element of mysticism. Karmayoga as you describe it certainly fits my understanding as stoicism. Buddhism also maintains we should not let ourselves get to emotionally tangled up in the affairs of the world. Someone could take this to mean withdraw completely into meditation, but I think it means not to let our passions good or bad drive us mad. I would not rule out some intercultural exchange between East and West that permeates these seemingly unrelated perspectives. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the holy books of Hinduism written in Sanskrit derive from the Aryans (who invaded India circa 2000 B.C. from Central Asia and/or the Steppes of Russia.) One of the things that is exciting is discovering how arbitrary some categorical distinctions are. Here's an interesting one: the National Geographic Genome project traced my X chromosomes to a lady from Northern Spain. She is also the source for the X chromosomes of Jimmy Buffet, Warren Buffet, and Marie Antoinette. The Spanish Hapsburg emperors of the 1500s were relatives of the Austrian emperors such as Franz Joseph of the 1800s. My paternal grandmother's maiden name was Sevillo - my 'Polish' grandfather was in the cavalry serving Emperor Franz Joseph of Austria. [There was no Poland for 150 years]. Am I Hispanic???????? > From: annalisa@unm.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 21:58:15 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Hi Francine under the cape of LarryS! :) > > I enjoy your explanation and I am even inspired by these quotes! > > Not being educated in matters stoic, I looked it up here. See the second definition: > http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stoicism > ----------- > 1. a systematic philosophy, dating from around 300 b.c., that held the principles of logical thought to reflect a cosmic reason instantiated in nature. > > 2. (lowercase) conduct conforming to the precepts of the Stoics, as repression of emotion and indifference to pleasure or pain. > ----------- > > Sorry to fall into the pothole of definitions, but I just wanted to show that that's why I'd said what I'd said. > > My utmost favorite quote is: > "Kindness is unconquerable." > > My second favorite is: > "We are the other of the other." > > But I would like to change it a little to say: > "I am the other of the other." > > Or for those who are afraid to start sentences with "I" how about: > "The other of the other is me." > > I'm not sure how this all lines up with the ideology of individualism, as the poll is still out on that, however I would like to offer to the list the concept of Karmayoga, as that seems to be relevant to what you have posted, Francine. > > Karma -of course everyone has some idea what that word means- is Sanskrit for "action." It is the idea that for every action there is an equal reaction. > > There are many different kinds of actions and they manifest in causes and effects. > > Without meaning to conjure the memory of Donald Rumsfeld, there are unknown causes and unknown effects. Then there are known causes and known effects. There are unknown causes and known effects, and last there are known causes with unknown effects. So that just about covers the universe, I think. > > The concept of karma in Vedic thought is a belief, because there can be no way to verify many of these connections. This is widely understood and accepted. BUT! given what we can perceive known causes and known effects we have been able to determine that there is a relationship. The rest has to do with inference and belief because there is nothing more to do to verify beyond those causes and effects that are known. > > Newton did determine this relationship in his third law of motion, by the way. :) > > Karma is the basis for right action, "right" meaning "ethical," "proper" etc. as a guide to live properly. Given the third law of motion, "what goes around comes around" is a common way to discuss karma in a pop-psychology sort of way. > > So given that I have control over my actions (if I do), then what I do will come back to me in some way or another. If the effect does not return to me in some fashion, then it means that there is an obstruction to its reaction or my perception if the reaction is obstructed, or that it will manifest at some point in my future. > > There is no IF it comes around, but WHEN. (Remember Newton's third law!) > > Given that there is no way to know for sure WHEN a reaction will happen, then I must cultivate some detachment concerning when the reaction will happen. > > Karmayoga is this attitude one has toward one's own actions, which is different than the doing of the action. It is the acceptance that I have control over my actions, but I have NO control over the results of my actions. > > This is very hard for people to accept, particularly those who adhere to the belief one is the master of one's destiny (ideology of individualism? I don't know). > > When I first learned about Karmayoga it was hard as an American to get my head around it. But as I sat with it, I realized there is a lot of freedom in this attitude. It is psychologically clean. > > For those who doubt, consider the bow and arrow. I have control over pointing the arrow and letting go the bow string. But once the arrow leaves the bow, I have no control over the arrow. Even if I have good aim, the arrow may not hit the mark, so when I have let go the bow, I also let go my control. Part of that control is emotional as well. Letting go means letting go. I can hope the arrow will hit the mark, but I must accept the possibility it may not. > > This detachment is not always easy to practice, because there is always a desire for things to turn out the way I want them to turn out. If it doesn't, the only thing I can do is try again. and again. and again. With each time, I try different or I try better. > > After all, one can do something, not do it, or do it differently. > > As Einstein has said, insanity is doing the same thing and hoping for different results. > > Essentially, Karmayoga is the practice of attachment to the act but no attachment to the outcome. Not that I don't care, or that I don't want an outcome that favors me, but that I understand where my sphere of influence ends and where the rest is out of my hands. > > So if one always practices good action, then one's mind is fairly free of worry, much baggage is unloaded. I can tell you from personal experience this is so! > > If one practices Karmayoga one focuses upon choosing the best possible actions, to set up the bow and the arrow optimally and once performing the act, to let go the bow and the arrow and wait for the result, hoping for the best, but not being disappointed or too excited about the outcome. > > Francine, it sounds a little stoic, no? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jan 7 20:12:18 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 04:12:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , , , , , ,,<000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, , , , , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, , , , , <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net>, <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu>,,<54AB9279.3030108@mira.net>, , , , , , , , , , ,,<1420583905222.7554@unm.edu>, , , , , <1420603153290.5112@unm.edu>, , , <1420667895315.81216@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1420690337470.21175@unm.edu> Hi Francine, Immediately I must post this link in response to your view of the Aryans. I must divulge that there is significant doubt about Aryan conquests; the Vedic culture is far, far more older than 2000 B.C, which is non-trivial. http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/aryan/aryan_frawley.html I can't say where stoicism generates, but Buddhism did arise from Vedic culture, likely in response to corruption in the caste system, which is my sense of things putting it all together, which is to say, I've not researched this and cannot offer citations. I'm not sure how many Buddhists know the Buddha was very likely taught the Vedas, since he was an Indian prince, after all. Sometimes oppression happens accidentally, just by not knowing the real story! Another nod to hermeneutics! Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jan 7 20:28:55 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 04:28:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu> <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net> <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu> <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net> <1420583905222.7554@unm.edu> <1420603153290.5112@unm.edu> <1420668091740.56555@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1420691334770.97568@unm.edu> Larry, Sorry... I think you are taking what I was saying as (each of us) to be my take on it (prescriptive) when I was verbalizing (each of us) to be descriptive of the ideology, as I'm understanding the ideology to be. This is why in the immediate paragraph after I wrote: "As we I think we all know, in reality we are not only not master's of our destinies, but that death is inevitable; we are mere mortals." So in answer to your question, each of us do not have to make up our own mind, because we are not master's of our own destiny even if we want to be. We only have control over our actions, but not the results. So that I would guess means we are in control of 50% of our destinies. Not bad odds, but not great either! I don't think it matters if we make up our minds alone or with others, I think the odds are the same. But that is my belief, and I cannot verify it, I openly admit it. Still one cannot deny how a little help from our friends can make a great pop song! For me the importance is in sorting out the 50% that I actually have influence over and focusing my attention there, since being focused upon the wrong 50% means I have given up all my control to fate, and without knowing it! Perhaps this is what groupthink is? That is, focusing upon the wrong half in company with others who also focus on the wrong half. I tried to find the post where e-movement was discussed and I cannot find it. It is lost to the ether. Would you mind sending the link to that post? Kind regards, Annalisa From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Wed Jan 7 22:44:22 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 00:44:22 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <1420690337470.21175@unm.edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , , , , , , , , , , <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, , , , , , , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, ,,, , , , <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net>, , <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu>, , <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net>, , , , , , ,,, ,,, , , , , <1420583905222.7554@unm.edu>, , ,,, ,,<1420603153290.5112@unm.edu>, , , , , <1420667895315.81216@unm.edu>, , , <1420690337470.21175@unm.edu> Message-ID: Hi Annalisa, Yes, I see there is great controversy regarding the idea of an Aryan invasion/migration to Indian. From what I was able to read (on the internet) the controversy is ongoing and politically charged. I did not see any evidence (genetic, linguistic, or archaeological) that the Vedic culture in India is far more older than 2,000 B.C. (Vedic Sanskrit). There were paleolithic people in India, and around 4000 to 2500 B.C. the Dravidian culture of the Indus River Valley appeared. This topic might be too emotionally charged to ever be resolved by scientific research. The National Geographic Genome project could eventually document migration routes. > From: annalisa@unm.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 04:12:18 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Hi Francine, > > Immediately I must post this link in response to your view of the Aryans. I must divulge that there is significant doubt about Aryan conquests; the Vedic culture is far, far more older than 2000 B.C, which is non-trivial. > > http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/aryan/aryan_frawley.html > > I can't say where stoicism generates, but Buddhism did arise from Vedic culture, likely in response to corruption in the caste system, which is my sense of things putting it all together, which is to say, I've not researched this and cannot offer citations. > > I'm not sure how many Buddhists know the Buddha was very likely taught the Vedas, since he was an Indian prince, after all. > > Sometimes oppression happens accidentally, just by not knowing the real story! Another nod to hermeneutics! > > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Thu Jan 8 09:08:07 2015 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 14:08:07 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Social Psychology Position in Chile Message-ID: <5D8EA7B7-F004-4CA0-AC17-3CBF3622F072@gmail.com> Academic position of Assistant professor Social Psychology Area School of Psychology Pontificia Universidad Cat?lica de Chile January 7th , 2015 The School of Psychology at the Pontificia Universidad Cat?lica de Chile, with support of the Centre for Social Conflict and Cohesion Studies (COES, FONDAP Centre), invites applications for the position of Adjunct Assistant Professor in Social Psychology. This is a three-year full time position. The Adjunct Assistant Professor will contribute to strengthening the Social Psychology Area both at the School of Psychology and at COES, by means of the development of research projects and publications in international indexed peer review journals, teaching at the undergraduate and graduate level, and fostering international academic networks. The candidate must have a Doctor academic degree in Psychology (Ph.D) at the moment of his/her hiring, and needs to be fluent in both Spanish and English. The candidate must show expertise in the study of intergroup relations, and in one of the following areas: social influence, attitudes, or social cognition. The applicant must have a strong methodological training and a proven track record in the development of experimental and non-experimental research. Special preference will be given to candidates with research experience in longitudinal panel studies and with the capacity to model data with specialized statistical software. The applicants must electronically send their (1) curriculum vitae, (2) research and teaching statement, which includes a three-year personal academic project they wish to develop in this position, (3) at least two recent indexed peer reviewed publications (from 2010 onwards) related to the abovementioned research areas (4) three recommendation letters (directly sent by the referees). All of these must be sent to the Psychology Department with the mail heading: ?Concurso Psicolog?a Social EPUC/COES? (Secretary Miss Mar?a Teresa Sep?lveda, mail: msepulvm@uc.cl). The required documents should be sent before Friday, March 13, 2015 at 17:30. The selection process has two stages: the first involves revision of antecedents and pre-selection of candidates; the second involves interviews and presentations (in person or remotely). The results will be announced approximately in May 2015, and the selected candidate is expected to join the Psychology Department in July 2015. David Preiss, Ph.D. Director Escuela de Psicolog?a Pontificia Universidad Catolica de Chile Av Vicu?a Mackenna - 4860 7820436 Macul Santiago, Chile Fono: (562) 3544635 Fax: (562) 3544844 web: https://sites.google.com/site/daviddpreiss/ From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jan 8 10:31:43 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 18:31:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , , , , , , , , , , <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, , , , , , , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, , , , , , , <54AB884B.7060004@mira.net>, , <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu>, , <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , <1420583905222.7554@unm.edu>, , ,,, ,,<1420603153290.5112@unm.edu>, , , , , <1420667895315.81216@unm.edu>, , , <1420690337470.21175@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1420741902212.26307@unm.edu> Hi Francine, I believe that the info you want is there in the link I sent. I'm surprised you did not see it in the article. I realize it is long, but it is there. Granted, there are no citations, but you are free to write David Frawley and ask for sources. I'm sure he would reach out, as any scholar would. Furthermore, I would ask you to investigate where the Aryan conquest story comes from. Frawley presents a solid case. Pedagogy of the Oppressors is learning how to ignore and not listen and then to tell the convenient stories. That Sanskrit was written down in 2000 BC does not mean it did not exist as an oral language before that. If having things written down is the only proof of language that there can be, then I suppose the Native Americans did not exist either until the 19th or 20th century. And yes it is charged, so perhaps reflect before posting something that could be contentious, even offensive to some people. I did ignore it the first time you mentioned it, but the second time I had to speak up. Scientific data does show us the real story, so I believe that science can resolve the issue. It doesn't have to be contentious at all. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of larry smolucha Sent: Wednesday, January 7, 2015 11:44 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? Hi Annalisa, Yes, I see there is great controversy regarding the idea of an Aryan invasion/migration to Indian. From what I was able to read (on the internet) the controversy is ongoing and politically charged. I did not see any evidence (genetic, linguistic, or archaeological) that the Vedic culture in India is far more older than 2,000 B.C. (Vedic Sanskrit). There were paleolithic people in India, and around 4000 to 2500 B.C. the Dravidian culture of the Indus River Valley appeared. This topic might be too emotionally charged to ever be resolved by scientific research. The National Geographic Genome project could eventually document migration routes. > From: annalisa@unm.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 04:12:18 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Hi Francine, > > Immediately I must post this link in response to your view of the Aryans. I must divulge that there is significant doubt about Aryan conquests; the Vedic culture is far, far more older than 2000 B.C, which is non-trivial. > > http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/aryan/aryan_frawley.html > > I can't say where stoicism generates, but Buddhism did arise from Vedic culture, likely in response to corruption in the caste system, which is my sense of things putting it all together, which is to say, I've not researched this and cannot offer citations. > > I'm not sure how many Buddhists know the Buddha was very likely taught the Vedas, since he was an Indian prince, after all. > > Sometimes oppression happens accidentally, just by not knowing the real story! Another nod to hermeneutics! > > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Thu Jan 8 11:48:11 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 13:48:11 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <1420741902212.26307@unm.edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , , , , , , , , , , , ,,, <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, , , , , , , , , , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, ,,, , , , ,,<54AB884B.7060004@mira.net>, , <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu>, ,,<54AB9279.3030108@mira.net>, , , , , , , ,,, , , , , , , , , , , <1420583905222.7554@unm.edu>, , , , , , , , , <1420603153290.5112@unm.edu>, , ,,, ,,<1420667895315.81216@unm.edu>, , , , , <1420690337470.21175@unm.edu>, , , <1420741902212.26307@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, Pedagogy of the Oppressors is harassing people who make a politically incorrect comment. Frawley has his version of the facts, but there is other research that he does not mention that supports Indo-Aryan/Indo-Persian invasion/migration possibly in waves. Sanskrit and Baltic languages like Latvian have striking similarities. It doesn't mean that the Latvians conquered India. Both groups could have migrated in different directions from a central location. Yes, Sanskrit was undoubtedly spoken long before it was written down. Also from what I read the Vedas are about a people whose habitat is the grasslands unlike India's terrain. Apparently this has become a taboo subject. > From: annalisa@unm.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 18:31:43 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Hi Francine, > > I believe that the info you want is there in the link I sent. I'm surprised you did not see it in the article. I realize it is long, but it is there. Granted, there are no citations, but you are free to write David Frawley and ask for sources. I'm sure he would reach out, as any scholar would. > > Furthermore, I would ask you to investigate where the Aryan conquest story comes from. Frawley presents a solid case. > > Pedagogy of the Oppressors is learning how to ignore and not listen and then to tell the convenient stories. > > That Sanskrit was written down in 2000 BC does not mean it did not exist as an oral language before that. If having things written down is the only proof of language that there can be, then I suppose the Native Americans did not exist either until the 19th or 20th century. > > And yes it is charged, so perhaps reflect before posting something that could be contentious, even offensive to some people. I did ignore it the first time you mentioned it, but the second time I had to speak up. > > Scientific data does show us the real story, so I believe that science can resolve the issue. It doesn't have to be contentious at all. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of larry smolucha > Sent: Wednesday, January 7, 2015 11:44 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Hi Annalisa, > > Yes, I see there is great controversy regarding the idea of an Aryan invasion/migration > to Indian. From what I was able to read (on the internet) the controversy is ongoing > and politically charged. I did not see any evidence (genetic, linguistic, or archaeological) > that the Vedic culture in India is far more older than 2,000 B.C. (Vedic Sanskrit). > There were paleolithic people in India, and around 4000 to 2500 B.C. the Dravidian > culture of the Indus River Valley appeared. > > This topic might be too emotionally charged to ever be resolved by scientific research. > The National Geographic Genome project could eventually document migration routes. > > > > > > From: annalisa@unm.edu > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 04:12:18 +0000 > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > > > Hi Francine, > > > > Immediately I must post this link in response to your view of the Aryans. I must divulge that there is significant doubt about Aryan conquests; the Vedic culture is far, far more older than 2000 B.C, which is non-trivial. > > > > http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/aryan/aryan_frawley.html > > > > I can't say where stoicism generates, but Buddhism did arise from Vedic culture, likely in response to corruption in the caste system, which is my sense of things putting it all together, which is to say, I've not researched this and cannot offer citations. > > > > I'm not sure how many Buddhists know the Buddha was very likely taught the Vedas, since he was an Indian prince, after all. > > > > Sometimes oppression happens accidentally, just by not knowing the real story! Another nod to hermeneutics! > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Jan 8 13:08:39 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 13:08:39 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Ethical Hermeneutics and Enactive [E-movement cognitive science] Message-ID: I have been reflecting on my imaginative process linking up various threads and the *styles* or *moods* expressed in these alternative models. Martin's article on the history of the development of *romantic* hermeneutics and Gadamer's extension of the Romantic version to be a more *philosophical hermeneutics* that is a more encompassing horizon of understanding. Then in the thread on *testimonio* and the *third space* the work of Enrique Dussel and his theory of *ethical hermeneutics* which posits that Germanic hermeneutics developed within a Eurocentric prejudice* was mentioned. Another thread was Greg's posting D. Hutto's notion of *the E-movement* in cognitive science. Another thread was exploring the ideology of individualism and its relation to more *collectivist* notions of the *self* or *subject* I would like to think out loud on how these various topics may be linked. I will begin with Hutto's exploration of *Radical Enactive Theory*: The question that Hutto explores is more expressed in his article that I am attaching. It is the preface introducing his book "Radical Enactivism" In particular listen to how he distinguishes between "basic" cognition that is enactive and more mediated cognition. I read this distinction while keeping in mind Vygotsky's notion of verbal thinking AS *circumscribed* and other modes of consciousness that do not overlap with *verbal thinking* may be the phenomena of *radically enactive cognition* The question that I am asking through Hutto's article is: How *central* is verbal thinking and how *immature* or peripheral is enactive cognition? Are *verbal thinking* and *radical enactive cognition* more *permeable* and is the relation between *basic* cognition and verbal thinking more fluid than some assume? Holding Vygotsky's notion of *verbal thinking* as a *circumscribed* phenomena which may be considered as central then tacitly we may consider other *basic* enactive cognitive phenomena as peripheral. I am suggesting this notion of central and peripheral may be questioned as a model to explain ouw ways of knowing, being, and acting. Leaving Hutto and Enactive basic cognition I will shift focus to another notion of the *center and periphery* and related notions of developmental immaturity that is expressed in Enrique Dussel's notion of "ethical hermeneutics". The question he is exploring is the Eurocentric mood or style of thinking as it links to prejudices of *immaturity* and *maturity* between the *center* and *periphery*. I am considering this *style* of Eurocentric type thinking AS *felt structures* [as Raymond Williams uses the term] Enrique Dussel gave the Frankfurt lecture titled "Eurocentrism and Modernity". In that lecture he quoted Hegel to give an example of Hegel's Eurocentric *thesis* which Enrique says is contrary to his own thesis of "ethical hermeneutics". Enrique quotes Hegel to capture the mood of Eurocentrism which he is challenging: "There arises via the reestablishment of Christian freedom the consciousness of SELF-justification of the Spirit. The Christian principle has passed through the formidable discipline of culture: the Reformation gives it its exterior dimension WITH THE DISCOVERY OF AMERICA .... The principle of the free Spirit makes itself here the BANNER for the whole world, and from it develop the UNIVERSAL principles of reason .... Custom and tradition NO LONGER HAVE VALIDITY; the different forms of right need to legitimize themselves as founded on RATIONAL principles. Thus is the Spirit's freedom realized. [Werke, 12 -13] Enrique chose this quote because in it Hegel is focussing on the *centrality* of Luther's Reformation for the transition to *modernity* that is Eurocentric. The Reformation considered as the central *basis* for modernity can also be considered as a central way of understanding the roots of the ideology of individualism. Enrique points out that for Hegel there were three stages of the "Germanic World" as the *development* of modern Christian Europe. The Germanic Empire was "the Kingdom of the Totality, in which we see a repetition of past ages" [Werke, 12:417] Enrique interprets this passage as saying THIS age of modernity BEGINS with a properly German event: the LUTHERAN REVOLUTION, whose "principle" is, in turn, [hermeneutically] fully in the Enlightenment and the French Revolution. For Enrique, Hegel projects onto the German past - onto the Reformation to be specific - the RADICAL effects of discovering the new world which produced in Europe at the end of the 15th and beginning of the 16th centuries the *other* of the Eurocentric world. At this point I would recommend reading Suzanne Kirschner's book "The Religious and Romantic Origins of Psychoanalysis* to get a *sense* of how deep and extended in European history is the notion of the ideology of individualism. She explores the *mytheme* of the *fall* away from the *source* and the yearning to reunite with this *source* from neoPlatonism, through the mystical stream of Protestanism, and into the Romantic response to the Enlightenment and on into psychoanalysis. The point I am making is how deep and complex is the ideology of individualism and that this history can be traced. It IS a particular situated tradition and we are implicated in its prejudices. I use prejudices as a factual statement not a negative statement. It is for us to reflect on the ideology of individualism and decide if individualism is positive or negative. "Ethical hermeneutics* as practiced by Enrique Dussel *extends* Gadamer's insights of the *power* [or force] of interpretation WITHIN *interpretive communities* to ask "who is included" and "who is excluded" in our *interpretive communities. The notion of *immaturity* may be complexly linked to the ideology of individualism. Whatever is *at the center* can be imagined as *being mature* while *others* at the periphery are *immature* I see connections between Vygotsky, Hegel, Hutto, Enrique Dussel, and the third space as *ethical hermeneutical practice. I apologize if this is too idiosyncratic and too personal. Modernity, AND the ideology of Individualism I believe are intimately linked to the Reformation. Enrique has added the notion that to understand the Reformation we must understand the Age of Discovery and how Eurocentric are the notions of modernity and the ideology of individualism Larry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: JANUARY 7 2012 HUTTO D Radicalizing Enactivism Basic Minds Without Content FREE.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 235941 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150108/0407ad87/attachment.pdf From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jan 8 18:17:09 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 02:17:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, , , , , , , , , , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, , , , , , , ,,<54AB884B.7060004@mira.net>, , <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu>, ,,<54AB9279.3030108@mira.net>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , <1420583905222.7554@unm.edu>, , , , , , , , , <1420603153290.5112@unm.edu>, , ,,, ,,<1420667895315.81216@unm.edu>, , , , , <1420690337470.21175@unm.edu>, , , <1420741902212.26307@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1420769828802.45901@unm.edu> Hi Francine, If you are saying I'm harassing you it was not my intention. I am passing on information, that is all. >From what've I read, the linguistic argument is no longer holding water, that the archeological findings show a different story. Even the Vedas themselves discuss astrological events that place them long before 2000 BC. I'm just passing on what I read from the article. David Frawley is a respected Vedic scholar, so I'm going to rely on his data and conclusions. No one denies that Sanskrit is linked to European languages. So I'm a bit confused about that. As far as grasslands, there are as many different kinds of terrain in India as in Africa, or The Americas, Australia, or China, even Europe isn't considered a monoculture. Here: http://everydaylife.globalpost.com/grassland-ecosystem-india-33833.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Grasslands_of_India Further, I don't find discussing any topic necessarily taboo, but it is nice to discuss what is factual, and that is my only reason to bring it up. I was sharing with you that the story may be offensive to some people so that you are aware of that because you might not know. I'm sorry that this story of Aryan conquest is so important to you, however I think it's important to understand that is it no longer supportable, at least is it looking this way. You are always free to decide for yourself. Annalisa From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Thu Jan 8 22:37:00 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 00:37:00 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: <1420769828802.45901@unm.edu> References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , , , , , , ,,, ,,, , , , , , , <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, , , , , , , , ,,, ,,, <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, , , , , , , ,,,,<54AB884B.7060004@mira.net>, , <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu>,,,,<54AB9279.3030108@mira.net>, , , , , , , , ,,, , , , , , , , , , , , , , <1420583905222.7554@unm.edu>, , , , ,,, , , ,,<1420603153290.5112@unm.edu>, , , , , , , , , <1420667895315.81216@unm.edu>, , ,,, ,,<1420690337470.21175@unm.edu>, , , , , <1420741902212.26307@unm.edu>, , , <1420769828802.45901@unm.edu> Message-ID: Hi Annalisa, In a caring way, I want to point out to you that in your comments you make personal remarks about my motivation. You are wrong when you say that "the story of Aryan conquest is so important to me." It is not something I care about, one way or another. I could just as well say "I am sorry that debunking the story is so important to you." Also, while David Frawley is a Vedic Scholar, he is not a linguist, an archaeologist, or a genetic anthropologist. I appreciate your drawing my attention to the heated controversy over the story of the Aryan invasion of India. It is simply that I do not think that the issue has been resolved. I think that in the future geno-anthropological data will be decisive in determining if there were major migrations into India from the West that coincide with the appearance of Sanskrit texts. To all XMCARs, it is important that we can disagree, even if someone is offended, as long as our intention is not to antagonize each other but to gain understanding. And, let me tie this directly to the Pedagogy of Oppression. The Pedagogy of Oppression could become a witch hunt that various groups use to 'fire up the base' and attack others. Once you open this Pandora's box, seemingly homogenous groups (based on race, gender, , ethnicity, age, religion, or ideology) start to fight among themselves as the group fractures along the lines of race, gender, ethnicity, age, religion, and ideology. This is happening now in the Islamic world. > From: annalisa@unm.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 02:17:09 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? > > Hi Francine, > > If you are saying I'm harassing you it was not my intention. > > I am passing on information, that is all. > > >From what've I read, the linguistic argument is no longer holding water, that the archeological findings show a different story. Even the Vedas themselves discuss astrological events that place them long before 2000 BC. I'm just passing on what I read from the article. David Frawley is a respected Vedic scholar, so I'm going to rely on his data and conclusions. > > No one denies that Sanskrit is linked to European languages. So I'm a bit confused about that. > > As far as grasslands, there are as many different kinds of terrain in India as in Africa, or The Americas, Australia, or China, even Europe isn't considered a monoculture. > > Here: > http://everydaylife.globalpost.com/grassland-ecosystem-india-33833.html > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Grasslands_of_India > > Further, I don't find discussing any topic necessarily taboo, but it is nice to discuss what is factual, and that is my only reason to bring it up. I was sharing with you that the story may be offensive to some people so that you are aware of that because you might not know. > > I'm sorry that this story of Aryan conquest is so important to you, however I think it's important to understand that is it no longer supportable, at least is it looking this way. > > You are always free to decide for yourself. > > Annalisa > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jan 9 00:08:42 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 08:08:42 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What is a Pedagogy of the Oppressors? In-Reply-To: References: <1420404365819.46928@unm.edu>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , <000001d028b0$aef9b560$0ced2020$@edu>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9087579@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, , , , , , , ,,,,<54AB884B.7060004@mira.net>, , <1420529114704.73535@unm.edu>, , , , <54AB9279.3030108@mira.net>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , <1420583905222.7554@unm.edu>, , , , ,,, , , ,,<1420603153290.5112@unm.edu>, , , , , , , , , <1420667895315.81216@unm.edu>, , ,,, ,,<1420690337470.21175@unm.edu>, , , , , <1420741902212.26307@unm.edu>, , , <1420769828802.45901@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1420790921247.99616@unm.edu> Thanks for showing your care, Francine. There can always be more care in the world. Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jan 9 10:20:53 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 18:20:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Ritual and the Consciousness Monoculture Message-ID: <1420827653012.68043@unm.edu> Hello sundry discussants! ?This landed in my email box this morning and figured it was a pretty catchy title that may intrigue others here on the list as much as me! I am practicing something I don't like to, which is post a link of something I haven't finished reading, with the risk I may not agree with it. However, then I thought I don't have to agree with everything I post on the list, do I? So just to say it is possible that I read it and be remiss that I shared it... Still, it can be looked at what kinds of writing are going on about consciousness out there, "outside." It may contribute to further discussion of the ideology of individualism? For what its worth? here's the link below... Kind regards, Annalisa Ritual and the Consciousness Monoculture http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2015/01/08/ritual-and-the-consciousness-monoculture/ by Editor on January 8, 2015 Sarah Perry is a guest blogger who blogs at Carcinisation and is the author of Every Cradle is a Grave: Rethinking the Ethics of Birth and Suicide. From ewall@umich.edu Fri Jan 9 10:51:23 2015 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 12:51:23 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Gendered Access in Crafting and Electronics Practices Message-ID: <3882B768-8354-46CE-98F3-ED18746657FA@umich.edu> For those that were interested previously in this topic, Kylie Peppler and other have commenced a blog titled Re-crafting Education at http://re-craft-edu.blogspot.com/ with, at least, a partial focus on mathematics education. You might say they are interested in the conceptualizing grammar. Ed Wall From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jan 9 16:42:52 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 16:42:52 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Gendered Access in Crafting and Electronics Practices In-Reply-To: <3882B768-8354-46CE-98F3-ED18746657FA@umich.edu> References: <3882B768-8354-46CE-98F3-ED18746657FA@umich.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for the news, Ed. Seems like we should make that link available somewhere on the website. mike On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Ed Wall wrote: > > For those that were interested previously in this topic, Kylie Peppler and > other have commenced a blog titled Re-crafting Education at > http://re-craft-edu.blogspot.com/ with, at least, a partial focus on > mathematics education. You might say they are interested in the > conceptualizing grammar. > > Ed Wall > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Jan 10 10:36:12 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 11:36:12 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rhythm In-Reply-To: <1420827653012.68043@unm.edu> References: <1420827653012.68043@unm.edu> Message-ID: The link proffered by Annalisa has a section on hiving and rhythmic entainment, a phenomenon that I have been interested in for years. I see it in the morning flights of pigeons that fly overhead as I do tai chi and in the migration of geese, ducks and cranes twice a year here in central New Mexico. This morning, as I took part in a dance-exercise class, I took part in a rhythmically entrained activity. I have read about rhythmic entrainment in the interactions of child and caregiver that Vera first made me aware of as a prime aspect of language acquisition. I see it in the work of McNeill on the rhythmic integration of gesture and speech. Karl Lashley said the following in 1951: "My principal thesis today will be that the input is never into a quiescent or static system, but always into a system which is already actively excited and organized. In the intact organism, behavior is the result of interaction of this background of excitation with input from any designated stimulus. Only when we can state the general charac- teristics of this background of excitation, can we understand the effects of a given input.? Whether within an organism, or in interactions between organisms, this suggests a rhythmic pulse underlying activity and development, and that the temporal domain is, in some sense, what underlies all of creation. I would like to propose that this rhythmic entrainment fits nicely with Hutto?s radical embodiment/enactive cognition (REC) hypothesis proferred by Larry. I was wondering what others think about rhythm and all that jazz. Henry > On Jan 9, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello sundry discussants! > > ?This landed in my email box this morning and figured it was a pretty catchy title that may intrigue others here on the list as much as me! > > I am practicing something I don't like to, which is post a link of something I haven't finished reading, with the risk I may not agree with it. > > However, then I thought I don't have to agree with everything I post on the list, do I? So just to say it is possible that I read it and be remiss that I shared it... > > Still, it can be looked at what kinds of writing are going on about consciousness out there, "outside." It may contribute to further discussion of the ideology of individualism? > > For what its worth? here's the link below... > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > Ritual and the Consciousness Monoculture > > http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2015/01/08/ritual-and-the-consciousness-monoculture/ > > by Editor on January 8, 2015 > > Sarah Perry is a guest blogger who blogs at Carcinisation and is the author of Every Cradle is a Grave: Rethinking the Ethics of Birth and Suicide. > > > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Sun Jan 11 03:59:57 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 11:59:57 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rhythm In-Reply-To: References: <1420827653012.68043@unm.edu> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110228E735@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> I think your quote from Lashley makes a very useful point - that communication often depends on interventions within a continuing flow of interaction. The meaning is not in the message so much as in how the message is placed in this flow, how it refers back to what the speaker can assume the listener will recognise and relate to and how it refers forward to a possible future state of relationships etc. I think this relates to Annalisa's posting about rhythmic entrainment because a shared rhythm, whether at the level of embodied co-movement, patterned sound or, over a longer timescale, traditional patterns of activity, provides a 'carrier wave' over which very subtle nuances of meaning can be communicated. As an example - when a musician performs a familiar piece of music, which is already familiar to many in the audience, very small variations in how the piece is performed can communicate a great deal about the performer's relationship with the piece. Or - where people are required to wear any form of uniform, small variations in how it is worn may communicate much about the wearer. I suppose this could be seen in terms of the 'yes and' rule in improvisation - go with the flow/rhythm but also add something to it. So while there may be much to be gained from losing oneself in the crowd it is also possible to find distinctiveness among the co-participants in a crowd activity. This reminds me of what I think was an inspired piece of teaching which is presented in the catalogue of the exhibition of children's work from the Reggio Emilia preschools in Northern Italy - in a project focusing on crowds children were asked to choose one person in a photograph of a crowd seen and to imagine what that person was thinking - the children drew their chosen person and added a bubble to show the person's thoughts. In this way the children were encouraged to recognise the individuality of each member of the crowd and this was carried on into their representation of a crowd in clay figures - each figure was given its own unique identity in the form of clothes, shoes, accessories etc. This struck me as a powerful learning opportunity in preschools which were developed with the express intention of preventing any resurgence of fascism in this part of Italy. All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: 10 January 2015 18:36 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rhythm The link proffered by Annalisa has a section on hiving and rhythmic entainment, a phenomenon that I have been interested in for years. I see it in the morning flights of pigeons that fly overhead as I do tai chi and in the migration of geese, ducks and cranes twice a year here in central New Mexico. This morning, as I took part in a dance-exercise class, I took part in a rhythmically entrained activity. I have read about rhythmic entrainment in the interactions of child and caregiver that Vera first made me aware of as a prime aspect of language acquisition. I see it in the work of McNeill on the rhythmic integration of gesture and speech. Karl Lashley said the following in 1951: "My principal thesis today will be that the input is never into a quiescent or static system, but always into a system which is already actively excited and organized. In the intact organism, behavior is the result of interaction of this background of excitation with input from any designated stimulus. Only when we can state the general charac- teristics of this background of excitation, can we understand the effects of a given input." Whether within an organism, or in interactions between organisms, this suggests a rhythmic pulse underlying activity and development, and that the temporal domain is, in some sense, what underlies all of creation. I would like to propose that this rhythmic entrainment fits nicely with Hutto's radical embodiment/enactive cognition (REC) hypothesis proferred by Larry. I was wondering what others think about rhythm and all that jazz. Henry > On Jan 9, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello sundry discussants! > > ?This landed in my email box this morning and figured it was a pretty catchy title that may intrigue others here on the list as much as me! > > I am practicing something I don't like to, which is post a link of something I haven't finished reading, with the risk I may not agree with it. > > However, then I thought I don't have to agree with everything I post on the list, do I? So just to say it is possible that I read it and be remiss that I shared it... > > Still, it can be looked at what kinds of writing are going on about consciousness out there, "outside." It may contribute to further discussion of the ideology of individualism? > > For what its worth? here's the link below... > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > Ritual and the Consciousness Monoculture > > http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2015/01/08/ritual-and-the-consciousness-monoculture/ > > by Editor on January 8, 2015 > > Sarah Perry is a guest blogger who blogs at Carcinisation and is the author of Every Cradle is a Grave: Rethinking the Ethics of Birth and Suicide. > > > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jan 11 08:06:38 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 08:06:38 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rhythm In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110228E735@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <1420827653012.68043@unm.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110228E735@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Annalisa, Henry, Rod The perspective: a shared rhythm, whether at the level of embodied co-movement, patterned sound or, over a longer timescale, traditional patterns of activity, provides a 'carrier wave' over which very subtle nuances of meaning can be communicated. The metaphor of "carrier wave" points towards notions of the "ear" and "hearing" meaning that Hutto suggests is at the level of "basic" cognition. How is this kind of meaning [thinking and speech within "carrier waves"] related to meaning as conceptual [thought and language]? The phrase "hearing each other into voice" [even when reading silently] I am suggesting is an aspect of "third spaces" as places of socially situated intersubjective dialogue. In testimonies, our readings are returned to our "interpretive communities" and in this return "possibilities" open up in this third space. [posse meaning "can" & ibilas as a suffix changing posse/"can" to an adjective]. So "possibility" [as if] and "can" as action are intimately related within "carrier waves" Larry On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 3:59 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > I think your quote from Lashley makes a very useful point - that > communication often depends on interventions within a continuing flow of > interaction. The meaning is not in the message so much as in how the > message is placed in this flow, how it refers back to what the speaker can > assume the listener will recognise and relate to and how it refers forward > to a possible future state of relationships etc. I think this relates to > Annalisa's posting about rhythmic entrainment because a shared rhythm, > whether at the level of embodied co-movement, patterned sound or, over a > longer timescale, traditional patterns of activity, provides a 'carrier > wave' over which very subtle nuances of meaning can be communicated. As an > example - when a musician performs a familiar piece of music, which is > already familiar to many in the audience, very small variations in how the > piece is performed can communicate a great deal about the performer's > relationship with the piece. Or - where people are required to wear any > form of uniform, small variations in how it is worn may communicate much > about the wearer. I suppose this could be seen in terms of the 'yes and' > rule in improvisation - go with the flow/rhythm but also add something to > it. > So while there may be much to be gained from losing oneself in the crowd > it is also possible to find distinctiveness among the co-participants in a > crowd activity. > > This reminds me of what I think was an inspired piece of teaching which is > presented in the catalogue of the exhibition of children's work from the > Reggio Emilia preschools in Northern Italy - in a project focusing on > crowds children were asked to choose one person in a photograph of a crowd > seen and to imagine what that person was thinking - the children drew their > chosen person and added a bubble to show the person's thoughts. In this way > the children were encouraged to recognise the individuality of each member > of the crowd and this was carried on into their representation of a crowd > in clay figures - each figure was given its own unique identity in the form > of clothes, shoes, accessories etc. This struck me as a powerful learning > opportunity in preschools which were developed with the express intention > of preventing any resurgence of fascism in this part of Italy. > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] > On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: 10 January 2015 18:36 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rhythm > > The link proffered by Annalisa has a section on hiving and rhythmic > entainment, a phenomenon that I have been interested in for years. I see it > in the morning flights of pigeons that fly overhead as I do tai chi and in > the migration of geese, ducks and cranes twice a year here in central New > Mexico. This morning, as I took part in a dance-exercise class, I took part > in a rhythmically entrained activity. I have read about rhythmic > entrainment in the interactions of child and caregiver that Vera first made > me aware of as a prime aspect of language acquisition. I see it in the work > of McNeill on the rhythmic integration of gesture and speech. Karl Lashley > said the following in 1951: > > "My principal thesis today will be that the input is never into a > quiescent or static system, but always into a system which is already > actively excited and organized. In the intact organism, behavior is the > result of interaction of this background of excitation with input from any > designated stimulus. Only when we can state the general charac- teristics > of this background of excitation, can we understand the effects of a given > input." > > Whether within an organism, or in interactions between organisms, this > suggests a rhythmic pulse underlying activity and development, and that the > temporal domain is, in some sense, what underlies all of creation. I would > like to propose that this rhythmic entrainment fits nicely with Hutto's > radical embodiment/enactive cognition (REC) hypothesis proferred by Larry. > > I was wondering what others think about rhythm and all that jazz. > > Henry > > > > > > On Jan 9, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > > Hello sundry discussants! > > > > ?This landed in my email box this morning and figured it was a pretty > catchy title that may intrigue others here on the list as much as me! > > > > I am practicing something I don't like to, which is post a link of > something I haven't finished reading, with the risk I may not agree with it. > > > > However, then I thought I don't have to agree with everything I post on > the list, do I? So just to say it is possible that I read it and be remiss > that I shared it... > > > > Still, it can be looked at what kinds of writing are going on about > consciousness out there, "outside." It may contribute to further discussion > of the ideology of individualism? > > > > For what its worth? here's the link below... > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > Ritual and the Consciousness Monoculture > > > > > http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2015/01/08/ritual-and-the-consciousness-monoculture/ > > > > by Editor on January 8, 2015 > > > > Sarah Perry is a guest blogger who blogs at Carcinisation< > http://carcinisation.com> and is the author of Every Cradle is a Grave: > Rethinking the Ethics of Birth and Suicide< > http://www.amazon.com/Every-Cradle-Is-Grave-Rethinking/dp/0989697290/>. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sun Jan 11 13:01:29 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 15:01:29 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rhythm In-Reply-To: References: <1420827653012.68043@unm.edu>, , <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110228E735@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk>, Message-ID: Message from Francine: Message from Francine: Larry, Rod, Annalisa, Henry, et al Here are some thoughts relating rhythm to prefrontal activity: In the intro to his book The Prefrontal Cortex (p.3), Fuster says that "Both coherence and coordination {of action} derive from the capacity of the prefrontal cortex to organize actions in the time domain . . . ." The prefrontal cortex enables the individual to act in a goal directed way. This would include the timing of a speech vocalization. Does it merely join a chorus of voices, interrupt of flow of speech or a conversation, or change the flow of speech or conversation. The carrier wave analogy is interesting because neuronal discharge can also become rhythmic with regular brainwave patterns (frequency and amplitude). Some rhythmic brainwave are OK (like alpha rhythms) others are very bad (like seizures). Carrier waves as radio waves are modulated and change their pattern or rhythm. If we view speech as a neuronal rhythm that can also be a shared interpersonal activity like a dance, is this "group think?" There has to be some common "group think" or we would not be able to understand each other. Change in the rhythm, pattern, or habit of speaking (hence thinking) can occur several ways. One is self-initiated (prefrontal cortex), the other would be an external agent perhaps a charismatic leader, or a divergent member of the group who randomly inserts a new element or rhythm (like a jam session among musicians.) Nonhuman external events also change the rhythm as do neuro-chemical changes like fatigue. Does this contribute to the flow of conversation on this thread or am I being too divergent? > Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 08:06:38 -0800 > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rhythm > > Annalisa, Henry, Rod > > The perspective: > > a shared rhythm, whether at the level of embodied co-movement, patterned > sound or, over a longer timescale, traditional patterns of activity, > provides a 'carrier wave' over which very subtle nuances of meaning can be > communicated. > > The metaphor of "carrier wave" points towards notions of the "ear" and > "hearing" meaning that Hutto suggests is at the level of "basic" > cognition. How is this kind of meaning [thinking and speech within > "carrier waves"] related to meaning as conceptual [thought and language]? > > The phrase "hearing each other into voice" [even when reading silently] I > am suggesting is an aspect of "third spaces" as places of socially situated > intersubjective dialogue. In testimonies, our readings are returned to our > "interpretive communities" and in this return "possibilities" open up in > this third space. > > [posse meaning "can" & ibilas as a suffix changing posse/"can" to an > adjective]. > So "possibility" [as if] and "can" as action are intimately related within > "carrier waves" > > Larry > > On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 3:59 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > I think your quote from Lashley makes a very useful point - that > > communication often depends on interventions within a continuing flow of > > interaction. The meaning is not in the message so much as in how the > > message is placed in this flow, how it refers back to what the speaker can > > assume the listener will recognise and relate to and how it refers forward > > to a possible future state of relationships etc. I think this relates to > > Annalisa's posting about rhythmic entrainment because a shared rhythm, > > whether at the level of embodied co-movement, patterned sound or, over a > > longer timescale, traditional patterns of activity, provides a 'carrier > > wave' over which very subtle nuances of meaning can be communicated. As an > > example - when a musician performs a familiar piece of music, which is > > already familiar to many in the audience, very small variations in how the > > piece is performed can communicate a great deal about the performer's > > relationship with the piece. Or - where people are required to wear any > > form of uniform, small variations in how it is worn may communicate much > > about the wearer. I suppose this could be seen in terms of the 'yes and' > > rule in improvisation - go with the flow/rhythm but also add something to > > it. > > So while there may be much to be gained from losing oneself in the crowd > > it is also possible to find distinctiveness among the co-participants in a > > crowd activity. > > > > This reminds me of what I think was an inspired piece of teaching which is > > presented in the catalogue of the exhibition of children's work from the > > Reggio Emilia preschools in Northern Italy - in a project focusing on > > crowds children were asked to choose one person in a photograph of a crowd > > seen and to imagine what that person was thinking - the children drew their > > chosen person and added a bubble to show the person's thoughts. In this way > > the children were encouraged to recognise the individuality of each member > > of the crowd and this was carried on into their representation of a crowd > > in clay figures - each figure was given its own unique identity in the form > > of clothes, shoes, accessories etc. This struck me as a powerful learning > > opportunity in preschools which were developed with the express intention > > of preventing any resurgence of fascism in this part of Italy. > > > > All the best, > > > > Rod > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] > > On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD > > Sent: 10 January 2015 18:36 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rhythm > > > > The link proffered by Annalisa has a section on hiving and rhythmic > > entainment, a phenomenon that I have been interested in for years. I see it > > in the morning flights of pigeons that fly overhead as I do tai chi and in > > the migration of geese, ducks and cranes twice a year here in central New > > Mexico. This morning, as I took part in a dance-exercise class, I took part > > in a rhythmically entrained activity. I have read about rhythmic > > entrainment in the interactions of child and caregiver that Vera first made > > me aware of as a prime aspect of language acquisition. I see it in the work > > of McNeill on the rhythmic integration of gesture and speech. Karl Lashley > > said the following in 1951: > > > > "My principal thesis today will be that the input is never into a > > quiescent or static system, but always into a system which is already > > actively excited and organized. In the intact organism, behavior is the > > result of interaction of this background of excitation with input from any > > designated stimulus. Only when we can state the general charac- teristics > > of this background of excitation, can we understand the effects of a given > > input." > > > > Whether within an organism, or in interactions between organisms, this > > suggests a rhythmic pulse underlying activity and development, and that the > > temporal domain is, in some sense, what underlies all of creation. I would > > like to propose that this rhythmic entrainment fits nicely with Hutto's > > radical embodiment/enactive cognition (REC) hypothesis proferred by Larry. > > > > I was wondering what others think about rhythm and all that jazz. > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 9, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > > > > Hello sundry discussants! > > > > > > ?This landed in my email box this morning and figured it was a pretty > > catchy title that may intrigue others here on the list as much as me! > > > > > > I am practicing something I don't like to, which is post a link of > > something I haven't finished reading, with the risk I may not agree with it. > > > > > > However, then I thought I don't have to agree with everything I post on > > the list, do I? So just to say it is possible that I read it and be remiss > > that I shared it... > > > > > > Still, it can be looked at what kinds of writing are going on about > > consciousness out there, "outside." It may contribute to further discussion > > of the ideology of individualism? > > > > > > For what its worth? here's the link below... > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > Ritual and the Consciousness Monoculture > > > > > > > > http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2015/01/08/ritual-and-the-consciousness-monoculture/ > > > > > > by Editor on January 8, 2015 > > > > > > Sarah Perry is a guest blogger who blogs at Carcinisation< > > http://carcinisation.com> and is the author of Every Cradle is a Grave: > > Rethinking the Ethics of Birth and Suicide< > > http://www.amazon.com/Every-Cradle-Is-Grave-Rethinking/dp/0989697290/>. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > > by an official order form. > > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Jan 11 13:14:41 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 14:14:41 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rhythm In-Reply-To: References: <1420827653012.68043@unm.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110228E735@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <88E89A2F-85C5-44E4-A638-F60533B20262@gmail.com> Annalisa, Rod and Larry, and y?all, My perspective: I see myself engaged in a dialog going at the speed of thinking, looking both ?forward? and ?back? (to use Rod?s thinking) from where I am as I write. Dan Slobin, the great psycholinguist, has said that the charges of language can be in tension: two of those charges are to be quick (so as not to lose the ?thread? one?s own thinking and/or the attention of one's audience) and expressive (so as to do justice to the complexity of the thinking). Andy?s unit of analysis, collaborative project (for example, this thread), is especially useful where he quotes Shakespeare: ?There is a tide in the affairs of men. Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune; Omitted, all the voyage of their life Is bound in shallows and in miseries." [Julius Caesar, Act 4] I see Rod?s image of jazz improvisation as ?yes and" and Larry?s third space as analogous. The musical metaphor reeks of rhythm and creativity. Construing this harmonious space more generally, I see respectful gesture as fundamental. Larry asks the question (a respectful gesture): > "The metaphor of "carrier wave" points towards notions of the "ear" and > "hearing" meaning that Hutto suggests is at the level of "basic" > cognition. How is this kind of meaning [thinking and speech within > "carrier waves"] related to meaning as conceptual [thought and language]?" I cannot answer the question, but I can suggest the following, using Larry?s morphological analysis of ?possibility?. Larry says, > '[posse meaning "can" & ibilas as a suffix changing posse/"can" to an > adjective]. > So "possibility" [as if] and "can" as action are intimately related within > "carrier waves?' Let me go one step further with the analysis: ?ity? make the adjective ?possible" into a noun. So the English, not unlike other languages, allows us to go from verb to adjective to noun very quickly and does so with a tremendously condensed ability for expressiveness. This morphological stacking is part of grammar. I would suggest that the ?carrier wave? of rhythm within the flow of speech and thinking is linked in real time with the conceptual thinking allowed by grammar. If we think of the flow of speech as phonological processing, and the flow of thought as semantic processing, then we can usefully call language use the coordination in real time of the phonological and the semantic. So how do we get to grammar? Henry > On Jan 11, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > Annalisa, Henry, Rod > > The perspective: > > a shared rhythm, whether at the level of embodied co-movement, patterned > sound or, over a longer timescale, traditional patterns of activity, > provides a 'carrier wave' over which very subtle nuances of meaning can be > communicated. > > The metaphor of "carrier wave" points towards notions of the "ear" and > "hearing" meaning that Hutto suggests is at the level of "basic" > cognition. How is this kind of meaning [thinking and speech within > "carrier waves"] related to meaning as conceptual [thought and language]? > > The phrase "hearing each other into voice" [even when reading silently] I > am suggesting is an aspect of "third spaces" as places of socially situated > intersubjective dialogue. In testimonies, our readings are returned to our > "interpretive communities" and in this return "possibilities" open up in > this third space. > > [posse meaning "can" & ibilas as a suffix changing posse/"can" to an > adjective]. > So "possibility" [as if] and "can" as action are intimately related within > "carrier waves" > > Larry > > On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 3:59 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk > wrote: > >> I think your quote from Lashley makes a very useful point - that >> communication often depends on interventions within a continuing flow of >> interaction. The meaning is not in the message so much as in how the >> message is placed in this flow, how it refers back to what the speaker can >> assume the listener will recognise and relate to and how it refers forward >> to a possible future state of relationships etc. I think this relates to >> Annalisa's posting about rhythmic entrainment because a shared rhythm, >> whether at the level of embodied co-movement, patterned sound or, over a >> longer timescale, traditional patterns of activity, provides a 'carrier >> wave' over which very subtle nuances of meaning can be communicated. As an >> example - when a musician performs a familiar piece of music, which is >> already familiar to many in the audience, very small variations in how the >> piece is performed can communicate a great deal about the performer's >> relationship with the piece. Or - where people are required to wear any >> form of uniform, small variations in how it is worn may communicate much >> about the wearer. I suppose this could be seen in terms of the 'yes and' >> rule in improvisation - go with the flow/rhythm but also add something to >> it. >> So while there may be much to be gained from losing oneself in the crowd >> it is also possible to find distinctiveness among the co-participants in a >> crowd activity. >> >> This reminds me of what I think was an inspired piece of teaching which is >> presented in the catalogue of the exhibition of children's work from the >> Reggio Emilia preschools in Northern Italy - in a project focusing on >> crowds children were asked to choose one person in a photograph of a crowd >> seen and to imagine what that person was thinking - the children drew their >> chosen person and added a bubble to show the person's thoughts. In this way >> the children were encouraged to recognise the individuality of each member >> of the crowd and this was carried on into their representation of a crowd >> in clay figures - each figure was given its own unique identity in the form >> of clothes, shoes, accessories etc. This struck me as a powerful learning >> opportunity in preschools which were developed with the express intention >> of preventing any resurgence of fascism in this part of Italy. >> >> All the best, >> >> Rod >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu ] >> On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD >> Sent: 10 January 2015 18:36 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rhythm >> >> The link proffered by Annalisa has a section on hiving and rhythmic >> entainment, a phenomenon that I have been interested in for years. I see it >> in the morning flights of pigeons that fly overhead as I do tai chi and in >> the migration of geese, ducks and cranes twice a year here in central New >> Mexico. This morning, as I took part in a dance-exercise class, I took part >> in a rhythmically entrained activity. I have read about rhythmic >> entrainment in the interactions of child and caregiver that Vera first made >> me aware of as a prime aspect of language acquisition. I see it in the work >> of McNeill on the rhythmic integration of gesture and speech. Karl Lashley >> said the following in 1951: >> >> "My principal thesis today will be that the input is never into a >> quiescent or static system, but always into a system which is already >> actively excited and organized. In the intact organism, behavior is the >> result of interaction of this background of excitation with input from any >> designated stimulus. Only when we can state the general charac- teristics >> of this background of excitation, can we understand the effects of a given >> input." >> >> Whether within an organism, or in interactions between organisms, this >> suggests a rhythmic pulse underlying activity and development, and that the >> temporal domain is, in some sense, what underlies all of creation. I would >> like to propose that this rhythmic entrainment fits nicely with Hutto's >> radical embodiment/enactive cognition (REC) hypothesis proferred by Larry. >> >> I was wondering what others think about rhythm and all that jazz. >> >> Henry >> >> >> >> >>> On Jan 9, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >>> >>> Hello sundry discussants! >>> >>> ?This landed in my email box this morning and figured it was a pretty >> catchy title that may intrigue others here on the list as much as me! >>> >>> I am practicing something I don't like to, which is post a link of >> something I haven't finished reading, with the risk I may not agree with it. >>> >>> However, then I thought I don't have to agree with everything I post on >> the list, do I? So just to say it is possible that I read it and be remiss >> that I shared it... >>> >>> Still, it can be looked at what kinds of writing are going on about >> consciousness out there, "outside." It may contribute to further discussion >> of the ideology of individualism? >>> >>> For what its worth? here's the link below... >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> Ritual and the Consciousness Monoculture >>> >>> >> http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2015/01/08/ritual-and-the-consciousness-monoculture/ >>> >>> by Editor on January 8, 2015 >>> >>> Sarah Perry is a guest blogger who blogs at Carcinisation< >> http://carcinisation.com> and is the author of Every Cradle is a Grave: >> Rethinking the Ethics of Birth and Suicide< >> http://www.amazon.com/Every-Cradle-Is-Grave-Rethinking/dp/0989697290/>. >>> >>> >>> >> >> ________________________________ >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >> >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for >> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the >> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the >> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. >> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not >> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts >> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails >> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility >> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its >> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied >> by an official order form. >> >> From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Jan 11 13:31:17 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 14:31:17 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rhythm In-Reply-To: <88E89A2F-85C5-44E4-A638-F60533B20262@gmail.com> References: <1420827653012.68043@unm.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110228E735@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <88E89A2F-85C5-44E4-A638-F60533B20262@gmail.com> Message-ID: Folks interested in talk and rhythm should check out the work of Fred Erickson. Starting with Erickson and Schulz' work that introduced the concept of "rhythmic entrainment" as observed in the work of college advisors and their advisees. He also has an article "Some notes on the Musicality of Speech." And his book Talk and Social Theory has extensive examples of the musicality of speech. Great stuff! -greg On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 2:14 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Annalisa, Rod and Larry, and y?all, > My perspective: > I see myself engaged in a dialog going at the speed of thinking, looking > both ?forward? and ?back? (to use Rod?s thinking) from where I am as I > write. Dan Slobin, the great psycholinguist, has said that the charges of > language can be in tension: two of those charges are to be quick (so as not > to lose the ?thread? one?s own thinking and/or the attention of one's > audience) and expressive (so as to do justice to the complexity of the > thinking). Andy?s unit of analysis, collaborative project (for example, > this thread), is especially useful where he quotes Shakespeare: > > ?There is a tide in the affairs of men. > Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune; > Omitted, all the voyage of their life > Is bound in shallows and in miseries." > [Julius Caesar, Act 4] > > I see Rod?s image of jazz improvisation as ?yes and" and Larry?s third > space as analogous. The musical metaphor reeks of rhythm and creativity. > Construing this harmonious space more generally, I see respectful gesture > as fundamental. > Larry asks the question (a respectful gesture): > > > "The metaphor of "carrier wave" points towards notions of the "ear" and > > "hearing" meaning that Hutto suggests is at the level of "basic" > > cognition. How is this kind of meaning [thinking and speech within > > "carrier waves"] related to meaning as conceptual [thought and > language]?" > > I cannot answer the question, but I can suggest the following, using > Larry?s morphological analysis of ?possibility?. Larry says, > > > '[posse meaning "can" & ibilas as a suffix changing posse/"can" to an > > adjective]. > > So "possibility" [as if] and "can" as action are intimately related > within > > "carrier waves?' > > Let me go one step further with the analysis: ?ity? make the adjective > ?possible" into a noun. So the English, not unlike other languages, allows > us to go from verb to adjective to noun very quickly and does so with a > tremendously condensed ability for expressiveness. This morphological > stacking is part of grammar. > > I would suggest that the ?carrier wave? of rhythm within the flow of > speech and thinking is linked in real time with the conceptual thinking > allowed by grammar. If we think of the flow of speech as phonological > processing, and the flow of thought as semantic processing, then we can > usefully call language use the coordination in real time of the > phonological and the semantic. So how do we get to grammar? > > Henry > > > > > > > > > On Jan 11, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Larry Purss lpscholar2@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > Annalisa, Henry, Rod > > > > The perspective: > > > > a shared rhythm, whether at the level of embodied co-movement, patterned > > sound or, over a longer timescale, traditional patterns of activity, > > provides a 'carrier wave' over which very subtle nuances of meaning can > be > > communicated. > > > > The metaphor of "carrier wave" points towards notions of the "ear" and > > "hearing" meaning that Hutto suggests is at the level of "basic" > > cognition. How is this kind of meaning [thinking and speech within > > "carrier waves"] related to meaning as conceptual [thought and language]? > > > > The phrase "hearing each other into voice" [even when reading silently] I > > am suggesting is an aspect of "third spaces" as places of socially > situated > > intersubjective dialogue. In testimonies, our readings are returned to > our > > "interpretive communities" and in this return "possibilities" open up in > > this third space. > > > > [posse meaning "can" & ibilas as a suffix changing posse/"can" to an > > adjective]. > > So "possibility" [as if] and "can" as action are intimately related > within > > "carrier waves" > > > > Larry > > > > On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 3:59 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk > > wrote: > > > >> I think your quote from Lashley makes a very useful point - that > >> communication often depends on interventions within a continuing flow of > >> interaction. The meaning is not in the message so much as in how the > >> message is placed in this flow, how it refers back to what the speaker > can > >> assume the listener will recognise and relate to and how it refers > forward > >> to a possible future state of relationships etc. I think this relates to > >> Annalisa's posting about rhythmic entrainment because a shared rhythm, > >> whether at the level of embodied co-movement, patterned sound or, over a > >> longer timescale, traditional patterns of activity, provides a 'carrier > >> wave' over which very subtle nuances of meaning can be communicated. As > an > >> example - when a musician performs a familiar piece of music, which is > >> already familiar to many in the audience, very small variations in how > the > >> piece is performed can communicate a great deal about the performer's > >> relationship with the piece. Or - where people are required to wear any > >> form of uniform, small variations in how it is worn may communicate much > >> about the wearer. I suppose this could be seen in terms of the 'yes and' > >> rule in improvisation - go with the flow/rhythm but also add something > to > >> it. > >> So while there may be much to be gained from losing oneself in the crowd > >> it is also possible to find distinctiveness among the co-participants > in a > >> crowd activity. > >> > >> This reminds me of what I think was an inspired piece of teaching which > is > >> presented in the catalogue of the exhibition of children's work from the > >> Reggio Emilia preschools in Northern Italy - in a project focusing on > >> crowds children were asked to choose one person in a photograph of a > crowd > >> seen and to imagine what that person was thinking - the children drew > their > >> chosen person and added a bubble to show the person's thoughts. In this > way > >> the children were encouraged to recognise the individuality of each > member > >> of the crowd and this was carried on into their representation of a > crowd > >> in clay figures - each figure was given its own unique identity in the > form > >> of clothes, shoes, accessories etc. This struck me as a powerful > learning > >> opportunity in preschools which were developed with the express > intention > >> of preventing any resurgence of fascism in this part of Italy. > >> > >> All the best, > >> > >> Rod > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > ] > >> On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD > >> Sent: 10 January 2015 18:36 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rhythm > >> > >> The link proffered by Annalisa has a section on hiving and rhythmic > >> entainment, a phenomenon that I have been interested in for years. I > see it > >> in the morning flights of pigeons that fly overhead as I do tai chi and > in > >> the migration of geese, ducks and cranes twice a year here in central > New > >> Mexico. This morning, as I took part in a dance-exercise class, I took > part > >> in a rhythmically entrained activity. I have read about rhythmic > >> entrainment in the interactions of child and caregiver that Vera first > made > >> me aware of as a prime aspect of language acquisition. I see it in the > work > >> of McNeill on the rhythmic integration of gesture and speech. Karl > Lashley > >> said the following in 1951: > >> > >> "My principal thesis today will be that the input is never into a > >> quiescent or static system, but always into a system which is already > >> actively excited and organized. In the intact organism, behavior is the > >> result of interaction of this background of excitation with input from > any > >> designated stimulus. Only when we can state the general charac- > teristics > >> of this background of excitation, can we understand the effects of a > given > >> input." > >> > >> Whether within an organism, or in interactions between organisms, this > >> suggests a rhythmic pulse underlying activity and development, and that > the > >> temporal domain is, in some sense, what underlies all of creation. I > would > >> like to propose that this rhythmic entrainment fits nicely with Hutto's > >> radical embodiment/enactive cognition (REC) hypothesis proferred by > Larry. > >> > >> I was wondering what others think about rhythm and all that jazz. > >> > >> Henry > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Jan 9, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > >>> > >>> Hello sundry discussants! > >>> > >>> ?This landed in my email box this morning and figured it was a pretty > >> catchy title that may intrigue others here on the list as much as me! > >>> > >>> I am practicing something I don't like to, which is post a link of > >> something I haven't finished reading, with the risk I may not agree > with it. > >>> > >>> However, then I thought I don't have to agree with everything I post on > >> the list, do I? So just to say it is possible that I read it and be > remiss > >> that I shared it... > >>> > >>> Still, it can be looked at what kinds of writing are going on about > >> consciousness out there, "outside." It may contribute to further > discussion > >> of the ideology of individualism? > >>> > >>> For what its worth? here's the link below... > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> > >>> Annalisa > >>> > >>> Ritual and the Consciousness Monoculture > >>> > >>> > >> > http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2015/01/08/ritual-and-the-consciousness-monoculture/ > < > http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2015/01/08/ritual-and-the-consciousness-monoculture/ > > > >>> > >>> by Editor on January 8, 2015 > >>> > >>> Sarah Perry is a guest blogger who blogs at Carcinisation< > >> http://carcinisation.com> and is the author of Every Cradle is a Grave: > >> Rethinking the Ethics of Birth and Suicide< > >> http://www.amazon.com/Every-Cradle-Is-Grave-Rethinking/dp/0989697290/>. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > >> > >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > for > >> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > >> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > >> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > it. > >> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > >> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > >> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > accepts > >> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan > emails > >> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > responsibility > >> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > >> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless > accompanied > >> by an official order form. > >> > >> > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Jan 11 13:52:40 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 14:52:40 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rhythm In-Reply-To: References: <1420827653012.68043@unm.edu> <, > <, > <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110228E735@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <, > Message-ID: <1BB67350-0D5E-49A8-8E97-FDBB7050BB09@gmail.com> Respectfully, I don?t want to speak for others, but no way is Francine?s proffer too divergent. I love getting back to the brain here. (Lashley?s shift from bacteriology to neuropsychology in the early part of the 20th century was a boon to psychology.) Love that materiality. Your comments on changes in rhythm, whether self-initiated or through and external agent remind me of my dissertation many years ago, where repair in spontaneous speech played a major role in my study of L2 acquisition. Repair includes correction of speech by others, the stereotypical form of teaching a language. In my dissertation, I found that one of the most effective forms of repair of L2 speech in English was other-assisted, that is when the learner was seeking assistance in moving the conversation forward. This both respects the learner and provides the resources of the native speaker of English. Other-assisted repair is initiated by the learner, not imposed. Other-assisted repair is particularly effective because it sandwiches the learning within a dialog, without interrupting it. Lots of Vygotsky?s ZPD here, I claimed. I found, not surprisingly, that there are cultural differences in how other repair is viewed. Henry > On Jan 11, 2015, at 2:01 PM, larry smolucha wrote: > > Message from Francine: > Message from Francine: > > Larry, Rod, Annalisa, Henry, et al > > Here are some thoughts relating rhythm to prefrontal activity: > > In the intro to his book The Prefrontal Cortex (p.3), Fuster says that > "Both coherence and coordination {of action} derive from the capacity of > the prefrontal cortex to organize actions in the time domain . . . ." > The prefrontal cortex enables the individual to act in a goal directed way. > This would include the timing of a speech vocalization. Does it merely > join a chorus of voices, interrupt of flow of speech or a conversation, or > change the flow of speech or conversation. > > The carrier wave analogy is interesting because neuronal discharge can also > become rhythmic with regular brainwave patterns (frequency and amplitude). > Some rhythmic brainwave are OK (like alpha rhythms) others are very bad (like > seizures). Carrier waves as radio waves are modulated and change their pattern > or rhythm. If we view speech as a neuronal rhythm that can also be a shared > interpersonal activity like a dance, is this "group think?" There has to be some > common "group think" or we would not be able to understand each other. Change in the > rhythm, pattern, or habit of speaking (hence thinking) can occur several ways. > One is self-initiated (prefrontal cortex), the other would be an external agent > perhaps a charismatic leader, or a divergent member of the group who randomly > inserts a new element or rhythm (like a jam session among musicians.) > Nonhuman external events also change the rhythm as do neuro-chemical > changes like fatigue. > > Does this contribute to the flow of conversation on this thread or am I being > too divergent? > > > > >> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 08:06:38 -0800 >> From: lpscholar2@gmail.com >> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rhythm >> >> Annalisa, Henry, Rod >> >> The perspective: >> >> a shared rhythm, whether at the level of embodied co-movement, patterned >> sound or, over a longer timescale, traditional patterns of activity, >> provides a 'carrier wave' over which very subtle nuances of meaning can be >> communicated. >> >> The metaphor of "carrier wave" points towards notions of the "ear" and >> "hearing" meaning that Hutto suggests is at the level of "basic" >> cognition. How is this kind of meaning [thinking and speech within >> "carrier waves"] related to meaning as conceptual [thought and language]? >> >> The phrase "hearing each other into voice" [even when reading silently] I >> am suggesting is an aspect of "third spaces" as places of socially situated >> intersubjective dialogue. In testimonies, our readings are returned to our >> "interpretive communities" and in this return "possibilities" open up in >> this third space. >> >> [posse meaning "can" & ibilas as a suffix changing posse/"can" to an >> adjective]. >> So "possibility" [as if] and "can" as action are intimately related within >> "carrier waves" >> >> Larry >> >> On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 3:59 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >> >>> I think your quote from Lashley makes a very useful point - that >>> communication often depends on interventions within a continuing flow of >>> interaction. The meaning is not in the message so much as in how the >>> message is placed in this flow, how it refers back to what the speaker can >>> assume the listener will recognise and relate to and how it refers forward >>> to a possible future state of relationships etc. I think this relates to >>> Annalisa's posting about rhythmic entrainment because a shared rhythm, >>> whether at the level of embodied co-movement, patterned sound or, over a >>> longer timescale, traditional patterns of activity, provides a 'carrier >>> wave' over which very subtle nuances of meaning can be communicated. As an >>> example - when a musician performs a familiar piece of music, which is >>> already familiar to many in the audience, very small variations in how the >>> piece is performed can communicate a great deal about the performer's >>> relationship with the piece. Or - where people are required to wear any >>> form of uniform, small variations in how it is worn may communicate much >>> about the wearer. I suppose this could be seen in terms of the 'yes and' >>> rule in improvisation - go with the flow/rhythm but also add something to >>> it. >>> So while there may be much to be gained from losing oneself in the crowd >>> it is also possible to find distinctiveness among the co-participants in a >>> crowd activity. >>> >>> This reminds me of what I think was an inspired piece of teaching which is >>> presented in the catalogue of the exhibition of children's work from the >>> Reggio Emilia preschools in Northern Italy - in a project focusing on >>> crowds children were asked to choose one person in a photograph of a crowd >>> seen and to imagine what that person was thinking - the children drew their >>> chosen person and added a bubble to show the person's thoughts. In this way >>> the children were encouraged to recognise the individuality of each member >>> of the crowd and this was carried on into their representation of a crowd >>> in clay figures - each figure was given its own unique identity in the form >>> of clothes, shoes, accessories etc. This struck me as a powerful learning >>> opportunity in preschools which were developed with the express intention >>> of preventing any resurgence of fascism in this part of Italy. >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Rod >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] >>> On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD >>> Sent: 10 January 2015 18:36 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Rhythm >>> >>> The link proffered by Annalisa has a section on hiving and rhythmic >>> entainment, a phenomenon that I have been interested in for years. I see it >>> in the morning flights of pigeons that fly overhead as I do tai chi and in >>> the migration of geese, ducks and cranes twice a year here in central New >>> Mexico. This morning, as I took part in a dance-exercise class, I took part >>> in a rhythmically entrained activity. I have read about rhythmic >>> entrainment in the interactions of child and caregiver that Vera first made >>> me aware of as a prime aspect of language acquisition. I see it in the work >>> of McNeill on the rhythmic integration of gesture and speech. Karl Lashley >>> said the following in 1951: >>> >>> "My principal thesis today will be that the input is never into a >>> quiescent or static system, but always into a system which is already >>> actively excited and organized. In the intact organism, behavior is the >>> result of interaction of this background of excitation with input from any >>> designated stimulus. Only when we can state the general charac- teristics >>> of this background of excitation, can we understand the effects of a given >>> input." >>> >>> Whether within an organism, or in interactions between organisms, this >>> suggests a rhythmic pulse underlying activity and development, and that the >>> temporal domain is, in some sense, what underlies all of creation. I would >>> like to propose that this rhythmic entrainment fits nicely with Hutto's >>> radical embodiment/enactive cognition (REC) hypothesis proferred by Larry. >>> >>> I was wondering what others think about rhythm and all that jazz. >>> >>> Henry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jan 9, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello sundry discussants! >>>> >>>> ?This landed in my email box this morning and figured it was a pretty >>> catchy title that may intrigue others here on the list as much as me! >>>> >>>> I am practicing something I don't like to, which is post a link of >>> something I haven't finished reading, with the risk I may not agree with it. >>>> >>>> However, then I thought I don't have to agree with everything I post on >>> the list, do I? So just to say it is possible that I read it and be remiss >>> that I shared it... >>>> >>>> Still, it can be looked at what kinds of writing are going on about >>> consciousness out there, "outside." It may contribute to further discussion >>> of the ideology of individualism? >>>> >>>> For what its worth? here's the link below... >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> Ritual and the Consciousness Monoculture >>>> >>>> >>> http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2015/01/08/ritual-and-the-consciousness-monoculture/ >>>> >>>> by Editor on January 8, 2015 >>>> >>>> Sarah Perry is a guest blogger who blogs at Carcinisation< >>> http://carcinisation.com> and is the author of Every Cradle is a Grave: >>> Rethinking the Ethics of Birth and Suicide< >>> http://www.amazon.com/Every-Cradle-Is-Grave-Rethinking/dp/0989697290/>. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >>> >>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for >>> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the >>> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the >>> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. >>> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >>> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not >>> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts >>> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails >>> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility >>> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its >>> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied >>> by an official order form. >>> >>> > From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jan 13 15:50:56 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 15:50:56 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Laws of evolution and laws of history Message-ID: Dear Colleagues-- I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being attributed to Engels, that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being replaced by the laws of history." Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this "quotation" or as to the source of my own confusion in this regard? mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ablunden@mira.net Tue Jan 13 16:51:35 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 11:51:35 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/index.htm and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as a species. Then he says: "With men we enter /history/." In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction between evolution of the species and historical development of culture. The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could count for what you are looking for, Mike. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Dear Colleagues-- > > I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being attributed to Engels, > that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being replaced by > the laws of history." > > Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this "quotation" or as > to the source of my own confusion in this regard? > > mike > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jan 13 17:53:31 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 17:53:31 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> Message-ID: So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. THANKS for the appropriate links! mike On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played by Labour > in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part- > played-labour/index.htm > and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm > > In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by adopting an > erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, and this led to the > expansion of the brain, language and sundry other changes, and thus > eventualy the emergence of human beings as a species. Then he says: > > "With men we enter /history/." > > In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making of tools" > which Engels claims happened before the formation of modern homo sapiens, > contributing to that formation rather than being a product of the formation > of modern humans, and he narrates a story which continues from this point > up to socialist revolution as if it were one continuous story, blurring > over the distinction between evolution of the species and historical > development of culture. > The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings become > removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make > their own history consciously." The "narrower sense" I presume means > biological differentiation. So this could count for what you are looking > for, Mike. > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > mike cole wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues-- >> >> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being attributed to >> Engels, >> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being replaced by >> the laws of history." >> >> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this "quotation" or as >> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >> >> mike >> >> >> > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ablunden@mira.net Tue Jan 13 18:23:55 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 13:23:55 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> Message-ID: <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their own history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky had poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 BCE I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: ?This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the cultural development of others has become degraded. ?/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented among these primeval peoples, can only be called ?relatively primitive.? Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of different cultures.?(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" as distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates focuses on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication that the cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the production of tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and leading up to the formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no chapter covering the period between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 years ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and tool-using activity together. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. > THANKS for the appropriate links! > mike > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played > by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/index.htm > and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm > > In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by > adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, > and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry > other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as > a species. Then he says: > > "With men we enter /history/." > > In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making > of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of > modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than > being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates > a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution > as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction > between evolution of the species and historical development of > culture. > The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings > become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the > more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower > sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could > count for what you are looking for, Mike. > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > Dear Colleagues-- > > I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being > attributed to Engels, > that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being > replaced by > the laws of history." > > Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this > "quotation" or as > to the source of my own confusion in this regard? > > mike > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > From Peg.Griffin@att.net Tue Jan 13 19:16:59 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 22:16:59 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> Message-ID: <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> Here's a little side track: There's a web trace of a 2010 well-curated museum exhibit on writing from the U of Chicago Oriental Institute. http://oi.uchicago.edu/museum/special/writing/ And here are a few little outtakes: "four instances and places in human history when writing was invented from scratch ? in Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Mesoamerica ? without previous exposure to or knowledge of writing. It appears likely that all other writing systems evolved from the four systems we have in our exhibition." "the earliest cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia (today's Iraq), dating to about 3200 BC," " early Egyptian writing that includes tags and labels from the tombs of the first kings (about 3320 BC) as well as hieroglyphic writing and other scripts from the Nile Valley." " Chinese writing, which emerged about 1200 BC, will be shown on oracle bones" " Mayan hieroglyphs from the 7th century AD will show how early Mesoamericans wrote." " Long believed to have been invented in Phoenicia in about 1000 BC, the earliest alphabetic texts are now those found in the Sinai. This earliest alphabet was derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs as early as 1800 BC, well over five hundred years earlier than had been known." There are some lovely little animations about the development of cuneiform and one animation about a hieroglyph changing and eventually appropriated for a Greek letter. I love this little site and fear the day I try to open it and find U of Chicago has abandoned it? Peg -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:24 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Mikhail Munipov Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their own history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky had poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 BCE I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: ?This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the cultural development of others has become degraded. ?/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented among these primeval peoples, can only be called ?relatively primitive.? Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of different cultures.?(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" as distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates focuses on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication that the cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the production of tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and leading up to the formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no chapter covering the period between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 years ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and tool-using activity together. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. > THANKS for the appropriate links! > mike > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played > by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/index.htm > and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm > > In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by > adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, > and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry > other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as > a species. Then he says: > > "With men we enter /history/." > > In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making > of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of > modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than > being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates > a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution > as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction > between evolution of the species and historical development of > culture. > The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings > become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the > more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower > sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could > count for what you are looking for, Mike. > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > Dear Colleagues-- > > I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being > attributed to Engels, > that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being > replaced by > the laws of history." > > Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this > "quotation" or as > to the source of my own confusion in this regard? > > mike > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > From jkindred@cnr.edu Tue Jan 13 19:19:40 2015 From: jkindred@cnr.edu (Kindred, Jessica Dr.) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 03:19:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> , <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> Message-ID: Mike, your paraphrased is very clearly ststed in Vygotsky's essay, The Socialist Alteration of Man, especially in the second through fifth paragraphs. I think this may be the source of the phrase you are looking for, though clearly Vygotsky is riffing on Engels. ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:23 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Mikhail Munipov Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their own history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky had poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 BCE I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: ?This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the cultural development of others has become degraded. ?/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented among these primeval peoples, can only be called ?relatively primitive.? Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of different cultures.?(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" as distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates focuses on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication that the cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the production of tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and leading up to the formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no chapter covering the period between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 years ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and tool-using activity together. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. > THANKS for the appropriate links! > mike > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played > by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/index.htm > and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm > > In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by > adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, > and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry > other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as > a species. Then he says: > > "With men we enter /history/." > > In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making > of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of > modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than > being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates > a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution > as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction > between evolution of the species and historical development of > culture. > The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings > become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the > more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower > sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could > count for what you are looking for, Mike. > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > Dear Colleagues-- > > I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being > attributed to Engels, > that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being > replaced by > the laws of history." > > Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this > "quotation" or as > to the source of my own confusion in this regard? > > mike > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > From ablunden@mira.net Tue Jan 13 19:41:51 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:41:51 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> , <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> Message-ID: <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> Jessica refers to: "Indeed, the struggle for existence and natural selection, the two driving forces of biological evolution within the animal world, lose their decisive importance as soon as we pass on to the historical development of man. New laws, which regulate the course of human history and which cover the entire process of the material and mental development of human society, now take their place." Andy PS, I am not the translator, Jessica, just the transcriber. Ren? van der Veer and Jaan Valsiner did all the work, and I just scanned it to HTML. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Kindred, Jessica Dr. wrote: > Mike, your paraphrased is very clearly ststed in Vygotsky's essay, The Socialist Alteration of Man, especially in the second through fifth paragraphs. I think this may be the source of the phrase you are looking for, though clearly Vygotsky is riffing on Engels. > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:23 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: Mikhail Munipov > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed from > animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their own > history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. > > Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky had > poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is > taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian > expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and > development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 BCE > I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The > development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. > Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: > > ?This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to > designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the > lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to > call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of > civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of > them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human > existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them > have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the > cultural development of others has become degraded. > ?/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist > anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented > among these primeval peoples, can only be called ?relatively > primitive.? Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the > starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. > Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data > concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels > of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of > different cultures.?(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) > > And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" as > distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates focuses > on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication that > the cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the > production of tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and > leading up to the formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no chapter > covering the period between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 years > ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. > > According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges > simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a > tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and > tool-using activity together. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: > >> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >> THANKS for the appropriate links! >> mike >> >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: >> >> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/index.htm >> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >> >> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >> a species. Then he says: >> >> "With men we enter /history/." >> >> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >> between evolution of the species and historical development of >> culture. >> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >> >> Andy >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues-- >> >> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >> attributed to Engels, >> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >> replaced by >> the laws of history." >> >> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >> "quotation" or as >> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >> >> mike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jan 13 19:53:35 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 19:53:35 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> Message-ID: Bingo! I was not hallucinating! Thanks a lot Jesica and Andy- I was just thumbing through my hardcopy and stopped to send an email. Do we interpret this as a belief that humans have transcended biological evolution? Its in our capable hands now that we are no longer just apes. Brrrrrr. mike On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 7:41 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Jessica refers to: > > "Indeed, the struggle for existence and natural selection, the two > driving forces of biological evolution within the animal world, lose > their decisive importance as soon as we pass on to the historical > development of man. New laws, which regulate the course of human > history and which cover the entire process of the material and > mental development of human society, now take their place." > > Andy > PS, I am not the translator, Jessica, just the transcriber. Ren? van der > Veer and Jaan Valsiner did all the work, and I just scanned it to HTML. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Kindred, Jessica Dr. wrote: > >> Mike, your paraphrased is very clearly ststed in Vygotsky's essay, The >> Socialist Alteration of Man, especially in the second through fifth >> paragraphs. I think this may be the source of the phrase you are looking >> for, though clearly Vygotsky is riffing on Engels. >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy >> Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:23 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: Mikhail Munipov >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >> >> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed from >> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their own >> history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. >> >> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky had >> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is >> taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian >> expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and >> development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 BCE >> I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The >> development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. >> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: >> >> ?This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to >> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the >> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to >> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of >> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of >> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human >> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them >> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the >> cultural development of others has become degraded. >> ?/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist >> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented >> among these primeval peoples, can only be called ?relatively >> primitive.? Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the >> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. >> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data >> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels >> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of >> different cultures.?(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) >> >> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" as >> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates focuses >> on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication that >> the cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the >> production of tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and >> leading up to the formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no chapter >> covering the period between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 years >> ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. >> >> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges >> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a >> tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and >> tool-using activity together. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> >>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >>> THANKS for the appropriate links! >>> mike >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >>> >>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part- >>> played-labour/index.htm >>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >>> >>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >>> a species. Then he says: >>> >>> "With men we enter /history/." >>> >>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >>> between evolution of the species and historical development of >>> culture. >>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues-- >>> >>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >>> attributed to Engels, >>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >>> replaced by >>> the laws of history." >>> >>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >>> "quotation" or as >>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From jkindred@cnr.edu Tue Jan 13 20:04:35 2015 From: jkindred@cnr.edu (Kindred, Jessica Dr.) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 04:04:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net>, Message-ID: The dopamine rush of solving a problem together is not so much transcending biology as just kind of living up to it. That was fun. ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of mike cole [mcole@ucsd.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 10:53 PM To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history Bingo! I was not hallucinating! Thanks a lot Jesica and Andy- I was just thumbing through my hardcopy and stopped to send an email. Do we interpret this as a belief that humans have transcended biological evolution? Its in our capable hands now that we are no longer just apes. Brrrrrr. mike On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 7:41 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Jessica refers to: > > "Indeed, the struggle for existence and natural selection, the two > driving forces of biological evolution within the animal world, lose > their decisive importance as soon as we pass on to the historical > development of man. New laws, which regulate the course of human > history and which cover the entire process of the material and > mental development of human society, now take their place." > > Andy > PS, I am not the translator, Jessica, just the transcriber. Ren? van der > Veer and Jaan Valsiner did all the work, and I just scanned it to HTML. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Kindred, Jessica Dr. wrote: > >> Mike, your paraphrased is very clearly ststed in Vygotsky's essay, The >> Socialist Alteration of Man, especially in the second through fifth >> paragraphs. I think this may be the source of the phrase you are looking >> for, though clearly Vygotsky is riffing on Engels. >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy >> Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:23 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: Mikhail Munipov >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >> >> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed from >> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their own >> history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. >> >> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky had >> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is >> taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian >> expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and >> development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 BCE >> I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The >> development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. >> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: >> >> ?This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to >> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the >> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to >> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of >> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of >> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human >> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them >> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the >> cultural development of others has become degraded. >> ?/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist >> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented >> among these primeval peoples, can only be called ?relatively >> primitive.? Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the >> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. >> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data >> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels >> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of >> different cultures.?(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) >> >> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" as >> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates focuses >> on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication that >> the cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the >> production of tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and >> leading up to the formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no chapter >> covering the period between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 years >> ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. >> >> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges >> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a >> tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and >> tool-using activity together. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> >>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >>> THANKS for the appropriate links! >>> mike >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >>> >>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part- >>> played-labour/index.htm >>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >>> >>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >>> a species. Then he says: >>> >>> "With men we enter /history/." >>> >>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >>> between evolution of the species and historical development of >>> culture. >>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues-- >>> >>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >>> attributed to Engels, >>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >>> replaced by >>> the laws of history." >>> >>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >>> "quotation" or as >>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jan 13 20:38:48 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 20:38:48 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> Message-ID: yes, highly coordinated join activity that satisfies the participants does tend to do that. An academic flow creating device. But you should be careful of the not transcending biology part. :-) mike On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 8:04 PM, Kindred, Jessica Dr. wrote: > The dopamine rush of solving a problem together is not so much > transcending biology as just kind of living up to it. That was fun. > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of mike cole [mcole@ucsd.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 10:53 PM > To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Bingo! I was not hallucinating! > Thanks a lot Jesica and Andy- I was just thumbing through my hardcopy and > stopped to send an email. > > Do we interpret this as a belief that humans have transcended biological > evolution? Its in our capable hands now that we are no longer just apes. > > Brrrrrr. > > mike > > > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 7:41 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > Jessica refers to: > > > > "Indeed, the struggle for existence and natural selection, the two > > driving forces of biological evolution within the animal world, lose > > their decisive importance as soon as we pass on to the historical > > development of man. New laws, which regulate the course of human > > history and which cover the entire process of the material and > > mental development of human society, now take their place." > > > > Andy > > PS, I am not the translator, Jessica, just the transcriber. Ren? van der > > Veer and Jaan Valsiner did all the work, and I just scanned it to HTML. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Kindred, Jessica Dr. wrote: > > > >> Mike, your paraphrased is very clearly ststed in Vygotsky's essay, The > >> Socialist Alteration of Man, especially in the second through fifth > >> paragraphs. I think this may be the source of the phrase you are looking > >> for, though clearly Vygotsky is riffing on Engels. > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy > >> Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:23 PM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Cc: Mikhail Munipov > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > >> > >> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed from > >> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their own > >> history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. > >> > >> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky had > >> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is > >> taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian > >> expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and > >> development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 BCE > >> I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The > >> development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. > >> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: > >> > >> ?This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to > >> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the > >> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to > >> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of > >> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of > >> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human > >> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them > >> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the > >> cultural development of others has become degraded. > >> ?/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist > >> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented > >> among these primeval peoples, can only be called ?relatively > >> primitive.? Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the > >> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. > >> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data > >> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels > >> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of > >> different cultures.?(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) > >> > >> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" as > >> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates focuses > >> on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication that > >> the cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the > >> production of tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and > >> leading up to the formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no chapter > >> covering the period between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 years > >> ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. > >> > >> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges > >> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a > >> tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and > >> tool-using activity together. > >> > >> Andy > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> mike cole wrote: > >> > >> > >>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. > >>> THANKS for the appropriate links! > >>> mike > >>> > >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played > >>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) > >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part- > >>> played-labour/index.htm > >>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) > >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm > >>> > >>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by > >>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, > >>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry > >>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as > >>> a species. Then he says: > >>> > >>> "With men we enter /history/." > >>> > >>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making > >>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of > >>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than > >>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates > >>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution > >>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction > >>> between evolution of the species and historical development of > >>> culture. > >>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings > >>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the > >>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower > >>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could > >>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. > >>> > >>> Andy > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> ------------ > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>> Dear Colleagues-- > >>> > >>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being > >>> attributed to Engels, > >>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being > >>> replaced by > >>> the laws of history." > >>> > >>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this > >>> "quotation" or as > >>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? > >>> > >>> mike > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Jan 13 23:36:12 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 16:36:12 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> Message-ID: Mike-- See Vol. Four of the Collected Works in English: the quote you refer to is the epigraph to HDHMF. It's from Dialectics of Nature, and Vygotsky keeps coming back to it again and again, throughout the whole text of HDHMF, which is one reason why I am assuming (against what Anton Yasnitsky has written) that HDHMF is a whole book, one of the very few that Vygotsky completedly completed (and also his longest work). We had to gloss this epigraph as part of our translation. I assumed that what Engels is saying is that man's knowledge of nature, viewed from the point of view of nature, is nature's knowledge of itself. But of course man's knowledge of nature is historical; we know nature through human experience and human experience is historical. So, for example, the idea that water boils at exactly 100 degrees centrigrade is entirely dependent on the human ideas like "degree", "centigrade", the decimal number system, and the tendency of human beings to settle near sea level. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 14 January 2015 at 13:38, mike cole wrote: > yes, highly coordinated join activity that satisfies the participants does > tend to do that. An academic flow creating device. But you should be > careful of the not transcending biology part. :-) > mike > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 8:04 PM, Kindred, Jessica Dr. > wrote: > > > The dopamine rush of solving a problem together is not so much > > transcending biology as just kind of living up to it. That was fun. > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > > on behalf of mike cole [mcole@ucsd.edu] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 10:53 PM > > To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > > > Bingo! I was not hallucinating! > > Thanks a lot Jesica and Andy- I was just thumbing through my hardcopy and > > stopped to send an email. > > > > Do we interpret this as a belief that humans have transcended biological > > evolution? Its in our capable hands now that we are no longer just apes. > > > > Brrrrrr. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 7:41 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > > Jessica refers to: > > > > > > "Indeed, the struggle for existence and natural selection, the two > > > driving forces of biological evolution within the animal world, lose > > > their decisive importance as soon as we pass on to the historical > > > development of man. New laws, which regulate the course of human > > > history and which cover the entire process of the material and > > > mental development of human society, now take their place." > > > > > > Andy > > > PS, I am not the translator, Jessica, just the transcriber. Ren? van > der > > > Veer and Jaan Valsiner did all the work, and I just scanned it to HTML. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > Kindred, Jessica Dr. wrote: > > > > > >> Mike, your paraphrased is very clearly ststed in Vygotsky's essay, The > > >> Socialist Alteration of Man, especially in the second through fifth > > >> paragraphs. I think this may be the source of the phrase you are > looking > > >> for, though clearly Vygotsky is riffing on Engels. > > >> ________________________________________ > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >> [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy > > >> Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:23 PM > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> Cc: Mikhail Munipov > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > >> > > >> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed from > > >> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their > own > > >> history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. > > >> > > >> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky had > > >> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is > > >> taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian > > >> expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and > > >> development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 > BCE > > >> I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The > > >> development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. > > >> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: > > >> > > >> ?This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, > to > > >> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at > the > > >> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to > > >> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of > > >> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of > > >> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human > > >> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them > > >> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the > > >> cultural development of others has become degraded. > > >> ?/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist > > >> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented > > >> among these primeval peoples, can only be called ?relatively > > >> primitive.? Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the > > >> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. > > >> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data > > >> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower > levels > > >> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples > of > > >> different cultures.?(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) > > >> > > >> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" > as > > >> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates > focuses > > >> on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication > that > > >> the cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the > > >> production of tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and > > >> leading up to the formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no > chapter > > >> covering the period between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 years > > >> ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. > > >> > > >> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges > > >> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a > > >> tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and > > >> tool-using activity together. > > >> > > >> Andy > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> *Andy Blunden* > > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >> > > >> > > >> mike cole wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. > > >>> THANKS for the appropriate links! > > >>> mike > > >>> > > >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden > >>> > wrote: > > >>> > > >>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played > > >>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) > > >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part- > > >>> played-labour/index.htm > > >>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) > > >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm > > >>> > > >>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by > > >>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, > > >>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry > > >>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings > as > > >>> a species. Then he says: > > >>> > > >>> "With men we enter /history/." > > >>> > > >>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making > > >>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of > > >>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than > > >>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he > narrates > > >>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist > revolution > > >>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction > > >>> between evolution of the species and historical development of > > >>> culture. > > >>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings > > >>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, > the > > >>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower > > >>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could > > >>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. > > >>> > > >>> Andy > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> ------------ > > >>> *Andy Blunden* > > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> mike cole wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Dear Colleagues-- > > >>> > > >>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being > > >>> attributed to Engels, > > >>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are > being > > >>> replaced by > > >>> the laws of history." > > >>> > > >>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this > > >>> "quotation" or as > > >>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? > > >>> > > >>> mike > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > > >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From juanma.duarte@gmail.com Wed Jan 14 03:41:20 2015 From: juanma.duarte@gmail.com (Juan Duarte) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 08:41:20 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> Message-ID: Hello, Andy, i disagree with your statement that Engels "narrates a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution as if it were one continuous story". Engels is just trying, in a little bit speculative -but fruitful- way, to find the evolutionary background for historical materialism. I think he gives a key to understand the relation between humanization/homininzation process, and historical one, trying to find the biological origins of human work (which presents en an alienated form in capitalism, and which is criticized by Marx in Das Kapital, etc.). Stephen Jay Gould has said that he was right in his bipedestation hip?tesis, which was to be later confirmed by the discovering of Lucy and Ardi?s skeletons. And it doesn?t mean, in Engels to accept "a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution as if it were one continuous story". Where does he say so? He is just saying that new ways of organizing society (socialist, which implies revolution, not "continuous" process), will give man new ways to understand and control biological process. Greets, Juan Duarte Universidad de Buenos Aires 2015-01-14 4:36 GMT-03:00 David Kellogg : > Mike-- > > See Vol. Four of the Collected Works in English: the quote you refer to is > the epigraph to HDHMF. It's from Dialectics of Nature, and Vygotsky keeps > coming back to it again and again, throughout the whole text of HDHMF, > which is one reason why I am assuming (against what Anton Yasnitsky has > written) that HDHMF is a whole book, one of the very few that Vygotsky > completedly completed (and also his longest work). > > We had to gloss this epigraph as part of our translation. I assumed that > what Engels is saying is that man's knowledge of nature, viewed from the > point of view of nature, is nature's knowledge of itself. But of course > man's knowledge of nature is historical; we know nature through human > experience and human experience is historical. So, for example, the idea > that water boils at exactly 100 degrees centrigrade is entirely dependent > on the human ideas like "degree", "centigrade", the decimal number system, > and the tendency of human beings to settle near sea level. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 14 January 2015 at 13:38, mike cole wrote: > > > yes, highly coordinated join activity that satisfies the participants > does > > tend to do that. An academic flow creating device. But you should be > > careful of the not transcending biology part. :-) > > mike > > > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 8:04 PM, Kindred, Jessica Dr. > > wrote: > > > > > The dopamine rush of solving a problem together is not so much > > > transcending biology as just kind of living up to it. That was fun. > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > ] > > > on behalf of mike cole [mcole@ucsd.edu] > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 10:53 PM > > > To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > > > > > Bingo! I was not hallucinating! > > > Thanks a lot Jesica and Andy- I was just thumbing through my hardcopy > and > > > stopped to send an email. > > > > > > Do we interpret this as a belief that humans have transcended > biological > > > evolution? Its in our capable hands now that we are no longer just > apes. > > > > > > Brrrrrr. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 7:41 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > > > > > Jessica refers to: > > > > > > > > "Indeed, the struggle for existence and natural selection, the two > > > > driving forces of biological evolution within the animal world, > lose > > > > their decisive importance as soon as we pass on to the historical > > > > development of man. New laws, which regulate the course of human > > > > history and which cover the entire process of the material and > > > > mental development of human society, now take their place." > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > PS, I am not the translator, Jessica, just the transcriber. Ren? van > > der > > > > Veer and Jaan Valsiner did all the work, and I just scanned it to > HTML. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Kindred, Jessica Dr. wrote: > > > > > > > >> Mike, your paraphrased is very clearly ststed in Vygotsky's essay, > The > > > >> Socialist Alteration of Man, especially in the second through fifth > > > >> paragraphs. I think this may be the source of the phrase you are > > looking > > > >> for, though clearly Vygotsky is riffing on Engels. > > > >> ________________________________________ > > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >> [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of > Andy > > > >> Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:23 PM > > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >> Cc: Mikhail Munipov > > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > > >> > > > >> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed > from > > > >> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their > > own > > > >> history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. > > > >> > > > >> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky > had > > > >> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is > > > >> taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central > Asian > > > >> expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and > > > >> development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 > > BCE > > > >> I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The > > > >> development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the > species. > > > >> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: > > > >> > > > >> ?This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, > > to > > > >> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at > > the > > > >> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right > to > > > >> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of > > > >> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All > of > > > >> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human > > > >> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of > them > > > >> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the > > > >> cultural development of others has become degraded. > > > >> ?/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist > > > >> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as > represented > > > >> among these primeval peoples, can only be called ?relatively > > > >> primitive.? Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and > the > > > >> starting point for the historical development of human > behaviour. > > > >> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data > > > >> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower > > levels > > > >> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of > peoples > > of > > > >> different cultures.?(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) > > > >> > > > >> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" > > as > > > >> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates > > focuses > > > >> on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication > > that > > > >> the cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the > > > >> production of tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and > > > >> leading up to the formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no > > chapter > > > >> covering the period between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 > years > > > >> ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. > > > >> > > > >> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges > > > >> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not > a > > > >> tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic > and > > > >> tool-using activity together. > > > >> > > > >> Andy > > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >> *Andy Blunden* > > > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> mike cole wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. > > > >>> THANKS for the appropriate links! > > > >>> mike > > > >>> > > > >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden > > >>> > wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part > Played > > > >>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) > > > >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part- > > > >>> played-labour/index.htm > > > >>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) > > > >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm > > > >>> > > > >>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by > > > >>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning > labour, > > > >>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry > > > >>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings > > as > > > >>> a species. Then he says: > > > >>> > > > >>> "With men we enter /history/." > > > >>> > > > >>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the > making > > > >>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of > > > >>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than > > > >>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he > > narrates > > > >>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist > > revolution > > > >>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the > distinction > > > >>> between evolution of the species and historical development of > > > >>> culture. > > > >>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human > beings > > > >>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, > > the > > > >>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower > > > >>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this > could > > > >>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. > > > >>> > > > >>> Andy > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >>> ------------ > > > >>> *Andy Blunden* > > > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> mike cole wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> Dear Colleagues-- > > > >>> > > > >>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being > > > >>> attributed to Engels, > > > >>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are > > being > > > >>> replaced by > > > >>> the laws of history." > > > >>> > > > >>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this > > > >>> "quotation" or as > > > >>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? > > > >>> > > > >>> mike > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> -- > > > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as > an > > > >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- Juan From ablunden@mira.net Wed Jan 14 04:06:15 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 23:06:15 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> Message-ID: <54B65BB7.2050706@mira.net> Sure Juan. Of course Engels sees the historical process as a series of revolutions. By "continuous" I meant that having begun from the descent from the trees he doesn't draw line between biological evolution and historical development. When he says: "the more that human beings become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their own history consciously," that seems to be just a gradual distancing from the animal. I don't blame him for this! He was writing in 1883! To be more specific could only have been guesswork. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Juan Duarte wrote: > Hello, > Andy, i disagree with your statement that Engels "narrates a story which > continues from this point up to socialist revolution as if it were one > continuous story". Engels is just trying, in a little bit speculative -but > fruitful- way, to find the evolutionary background for historical > materialism. I think he gives a key to understand the relation between > humanization/homininzation process, and historical one, trying to find the > biological origins of human work (which presents en an alienated form in > capitalism, and which is criticized by Marx in Das Kapital, etc.). Stephen > Jay Gould has said that he was right in his bipedestation hip?tesis, which > was to be later confirmed by the discovering of Lucy and Ardi?s skeletons. > And it doesn?t mean, in Engels to accept "a story which continues from this > point up to socialist revolution as if it were one continuous story". Where > does he say so? He is just saying that new ways of organizing society > (socialist, which implies revolution, not "continuous" process), will give > man new ways to understand and control biological process. > > Greets, > Juan Duarte > Universidad de Buenos Aires > > 2015-01-14 4:36 GMT-03:00 David Kellogg : > > >> Mike-- >> >> See Vol. Four of the Collected Works in English: the quote you refer to is >> the epigraph to HDHMF. It's from Dialectics of Nature, and Vygotsky keeps >> coming back to it again and again, throughout the whole text of HDHMF, >> which is one reason why I am assuming (against what Anton Yasnitsky has >> written) that HDHMF is a whole book, one of the very few that Vygotsky >> completedly completed (and also his longest work). >> >> We had to gloss this epigraph as part of our translation. I assumed that >> what Engels is saying is that man's knowledge of nature, viewed from the >> point of view of nature, is nature's knowledge of itself. But of course >> man's knowledge of nature is historical; we know nature through human >> experience and human experience is historical. So, for example, the idea >> that water boils at exactly 100 degrees centrigrade is entirely dependent >> on the human ideas like "degree", "centigrade", the decimal number system, >> and the tendency of human beings to settle near sea level. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> On 14 January 2015 at 13:38, mike cole wrote: >> >> >>> yes, highly coordinated join activity that satisfies the participants >>> >> does >> >>> tend to do that. An academic flow creating device. But you should be >>> careful of the not transcending biology part. :-) >>> mike >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 8:04 PM, Kindred, Jessica Dr. >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> The dopamine rush of solving a problem together is not so much >>>> transcending biology as just kind of living up to it. That was fun. >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >> ] >> >>>> on behalf of mike cole [mcole@ucsd.edu] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 10:53 PM >>>> To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >>>> >>>> Bingo! I was not hallucinating! >>>> Thanks a lot Jesica and Andy- I was just thumbing through my hardcopy >>>> >> and >> >>>> stopped to send an email. >>>> >>>> Do we interpret this as a belief that humans have transcended >>>> >> biological >> >>>> evolution? Its in our capable hands now that we are no longer just >>>> >> apes. >> >>>> Brrrrrr. >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 7:41 PM, Andy Blunden >>>> >> wrote: >> >>>>> Jessica refers to: >>>>> >>>>> "Indeed, the struggle for existence and natural selection, the two >>>>> driving forces of biological evolution within the animal world, >>>>> >> lose >> >>>>> their decisive importance as soon as we pass on to the historical >>>>> development of man. New laws, which regulate the course of human >>>>> history and which cover the entire process of the material and >>>>> mental development of human society, now take their place." >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> PS, I am not the translator, Jessica, just the transcriber. Ren? van >>>>> >>> der >>> >>>>> Veer and Jaan Valsiner did all the work, and I just scanned it to >>>>> >> HTML. >> >>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Kindred, Jessica Dr. wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Mike, your paraphrased is very clearly ststed in Vygotsky's essay, >>>>>> >> The >> >>>>>> Socialist Alteration of Man, especially in the second through fifth >>>>>> paragraphs. I think this may be the source of the phrase you are >>>>>> >>> looking >>> >>>>>> for, though clearly Vygotsky is riffing on Engels. >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of >>>>>> >> Andy >> >>>>>> Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:23 PM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Cc: Mikhail Munipov >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >>>>>> >>>>>> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed >>>>>> >> from >> >>>>>> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their >>>>>> >>> own >>> >>>>>> history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. >>>>>> >>>>>> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky >>>>>> >> had >> >>>>>> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is >>>>>> taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central >>>>>> >> Asian >> >>>>>> expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and >>>>>> development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 >>>>>> >>> BCE >>> >>>>>> I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The >>>>>> development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the >>>>>> >> species. >> >>>>>> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: >>>>>> >>>>>> ?This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, >>>>>> >>> to >>> >>>>>> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at >>>>>> >>> the >>> >>>>>> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right >>>>>> >> to >> >>>>>> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of >>>>>> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All >>>>>> >> of >> >>>>>> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human >>>>>> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of >>>>>> >> them >> >>>>>> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the >>>>>> cultural development of others has become degraded. >>>>>> ?/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist >>>>>> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as >>>>>> >> represented >> >>>>>> among these primeval peoples, can only be called ?relatively >>>>>> primitive.? Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and >>>>>> >> the >> >>>>>> starting point for the historical development of human >>>>>> >> behaviour. >> >>>>>> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data >>>>>> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower >>>>>> >>> levels >>> >>>>>> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of >>>>>> >> peoples >> >>> of >>> >>>>>> different cultures.?(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) >>>>>> >>>>>> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" >>>>>> >>> as >>> >>>>>> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates >>>>>> >>> focuses >>> >>>>>> on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication >>>>>> >>> that >>> >>>>>> the cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the >>>>>> production of tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and >>>>>> leading up to the formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no >>>>>> >>> chapter >>> >>>>>> covering the period between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 >>>>>> >> years >> >>>>>> ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. >>>>>> >>>>>> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges >>>>>> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not >>>>>> >> a >> >>>>>> tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic >>>>>> >> and >> >>>>>> tool-using activity together. >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >>>>>>> THANKS for the appropriate links! >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part >>>>>>> >> Played >> >>>>>>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >>>>>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part- >>>>>>> played-labour/index.htm >>>>>>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >>>>>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >>>>>>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning >>>>>>> >> labour, >> >>>>>>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >>>>>>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings >>>>>>> >>> as >>> >>>>>>> a species. Then he says: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "With men we enter /history/." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the >>>>>>> >> making >> >>>>>>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >>>>>>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >>>>>>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he >>>>>>> >>> narrates >>> >>>>>>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist >>>>>>> >>> revolution >>> >>>>>>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the >>>>>>> >> distinction >> >>>>>>> between evolution of the species and historical development of >>>>>>> culture. >>>>>>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human >>>>>>> >> beings >> >>>>>>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, >>>>>>> >>> the >>> >>>>>>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >>>>>>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this >>>>>>> >> could >> >>>>>>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Colleagues-- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >>>>>>> attributed to Engels, >>>>>>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are >>>>>>> >>> being >>> >>>>>>> replaced by >>>>>>> the laws of history." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >>>>>>> "quotation" or as >>>>>>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as >>>>>>> >> an >> >>>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>> >>> object >>> >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>> >> object >> >>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Wed Jan 14 05:46:46 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 00:46:46 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> , <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> Message-ID: <54B67346.6010309@mira.net> Just a couple more quotes from Vygotsky which shed some light on Mike's question. These come from the last paragraphs of Chapter 1 of "Ape, Primitive Man and Child." "Once symbols enabling man to control his own behavioral processes had been invented and were in use, the history of the development of behavior became transformed, to a large extent, into the history of the development of those auxiliary artificial "means of behavior", and the history of man's control over his own behavior." So it is essentially sign-use which characterises cultural development, not tool-use, and going to the question of whether there are two temporally distinct phases of development: "This of course does not mean that, left to itself, the development of the hand, that fundamental organ, and of the intellect came to an end as soon as man's historical development began. Quite the contrary: the hand and the brain, as natural organs, probably never developed so rapidly, and at such a gigantic pace, as during the period of historical development." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Andy Blunden wrote: > Jessica refers to: > > "Indeed, the struggle for existence and natural selection, the two > driving forces of biological evolution within the animal world, lose > their decisive importance as soon as we pass on to the historical > development of man. New laws, which regulate the course of human > history and which cover the entire process of the material and > mental development of human society, now take their place." > > Andy > PS, I am not the translator, Jessica, just the transcriber. Ren? van > der Veer and Jaan Valsiner did all the work, and I just scanned it to > HTML. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Kindred, Jessica Dr. wrote: >> Mike, your paraphrased is very clearly ststed in Vygotsky's essay, >> The Socialist Alteration of Man, especially in the second through >> fifth paragraphs. I think this may be the source of the phrase you >> are looking for, though clearly Vygotsky is riffing on Engels. >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy >> Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:23 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: Mikhail Munipov >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >> >> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed from >> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their own >> history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. >> >> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky had >> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is >> taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian >> expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and >> development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 BCE >> I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The >> development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. >> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: >> >> ?This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to >> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the >> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to >> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of >> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of >> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human >> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them >> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the >> cultural development of others has become degraded. >> ?/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist >> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented >> among these primeval peoples, can only be called ?relatively >> primitive.? Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the >> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. >> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data >> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels >> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of >> different cultures.?(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) >> >> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" as >> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates focuses >> on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication that >> the cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the >> production of tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and >> leading up to the formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no chapter >> covering the period between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 years >> ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. >> >> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges >> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a >> tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and >> tool-using activity together. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >>> THANKS for the appropriate links! >>> mike >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >>> >>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >>> >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/index.htm >>> >>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >>> >>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >>> a species. Then he says: >>> >>> "With men we enter /history/." >>> >>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >>> between evolution of the species and historical development of >>> culture. >>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues-- >>> >>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >>> attributed to Engels, >>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >>> replaced by >>> the laws of history." >>> >>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >>> "quotation" or as >>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jan 14 10:09:21 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 18:09:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54B67346.6010309@mira.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> , <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net>,<54B67346.6010309@mira.net> Message-ID: <1421258959804.38891@unm.edu> Hi, Isn't a sign equivalent to a tool, that language itself is a tool? Or are there different transformations in the brain going on depending upon which sense it enters? Ears, touch, eyes, smell, taste? Don't these all function similarly in the way they transform mind through perception? I don't know what is gained by separating them since we don't experience our senses as separate functions; they are connected to one another through the body. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+annalisa=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 6:46 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history Just a couple more quotes from Vygotsky which shed some light on Mike's question. These come from the last paragraphs of Chapter 1 of "Ape, Primitive Man and Child." "Once symbols enabling man to control his own behavioral processes had been invented and were in use, the history of the development of behavior became transformed, to a large extent, into the history of the development of those auxiliary artificial "means of behavior", and the history of man's control over his own behavior." So it is essentially sign-use which characterises cultural development, not tool-use, and going to the question of whether there are two temporally distinct phases of development: "This of course does not mean that, left to itself, the development of the hand, that fundamental organ, and of the intellect came to an end as soon as man's historical development began. Quite the contrary: the hand and the brain, as natural organs, probably never developed so rapidly, and at such a gigantic pace, as during the period of historical development." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Andy Blunden wrote: > Jessica refers to: > > "Indeed, the struggle for existence and natural selection, the two > driving forces of biological evolution within the animal world, lose > their decisive importance as soon as we pass on to the historical > development of man. New laws, which regulate the course of human > history and which cover the entire process of the material and > mental development of human society, now take their place." > > Andy > PS, I am not the translator, Jessica, just the transcriber. Ren? van > der Veer and Jaan Valsiner did all the work, and I just scanned it to > HTML. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Kindred, Jessica Dr. wrote: >> Mike, your paraphrased is very clearly ststed in Vygotsky's essay, >> The Socialist Alteration of Man, especially in the second through >> fifth paragraphs. I think this may be the source of the phrase you >> are looking for, though clearly Vygotsky is riffing on Engels. >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy >> Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:23 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: Mikhail Munipov >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >> >> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed from >> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their own >> history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. >> >> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky had >> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is >> taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian >> expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and >> development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 BCE >> I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The >> development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. >> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: >> >> ?This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to >> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the >> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to >> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of >> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of >> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human >> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them >> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the >> cultural development of others has become degraded. >> ?/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist >> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented >> among these primeval peoples, can only be called ?relatively >> primitive.? Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the >> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. >> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data >> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels >> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of >> different cultures.?(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) >> >> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" as >> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates focuses >> on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication that >> the cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the >> production of tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and >> leading up to the formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no chapter >> covering the period between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 years >> ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. >> >> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges >> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a >> tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and >> tool-using activity together. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >>> THANKS for the appropriate links! >>> mike >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >>> >>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >>> >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/index.htm >>> >>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >>> >>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >>> a species. Then he says: >>> >>> "With men we enter /history/." >>> >>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >>> between evolution of the species and historical development of >>> culture. >>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues-- >>> >>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >>> attributed to Engels, >>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >>> replaced by >>> the laws of history." >>> >>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >>> "quotation" or as >>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Jan 14 10:37:56 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 10:37:56 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <1421258959804.38891@unm.edu> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> <54B67346.6010309@mira.net> <1421258959804.38891@unm.edu> Message-ID: ?For those interested in the sign/tool discussion, I recommend a search on the homepage at lchc.ucsd.edu using key words tool sign. David Kellogg has written about this a good deal in addition to Andy so if you search on sign tool kellogg it might prove useful. LSV's book on this topic is available at ?http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/tool-symbol.htm. mike On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 10:09 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi, > > Isn't a sign equivalent to a tool, that language itself is a tool? > > Or are there different transformations in the brain going on depending > upon which sense it enters? Ears, touch, eyes, smell, taste? > > Don't these all function similarly in the way they transform mind through > perception? I don't know what is gained by separating them since we don't > experience our senses as separate functions; they are connected to one > another through the body. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+annalisa=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy > Blunden > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 6:46 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Just a couple more quotes from Vygotsky which shed some light on Mike's > question. These come from the last paragraphs of Chapter 1 of "Ape, > Primitive Man and Child." > > "Once symbols enabling man to control his own behavioral processes > had been invented and were in use, the history of the development of > behavior became transformed, to a large extent, into the history of > the development of those auxiliary artificial "means of behavior", > and the history of man's control over his own behavior." > > So it is essentially sign-use which characterises cultural development, > not tool-use, and going to the question of whether there are two > temporally distinct phases of development: > > "This of course does not mean that, left to itself, the development > of the hand, that fundamental organ, and of the intellect came to an > end as soon as man's historical development began. Quite the > contrary: the hand and the brain, as natural organs, probably never > developed so rapidly, and at such a gigantic pace, as during the > period of historical development." > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Andy Blunden wrote: > > Jessica refers to: > > > > "Indeed, the struggle for existence and natural selection, the two > > driving forces of biological evolution within the animal world, lose > > their decisive importance as soon as we pass on to the historical > > development of man. New laws, which regulate the course of human > > history and which cover the entire process of the material and > > mental development of human society, now take their place." > > > > Andy > > PS, I am not the translator, Jessica, just the transcriber. Ren? van > > der Veer and Jaan Valsiner did all the work, and I just scanned it to > > HTML. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Kindred, Jessica Dr. wrote: > >> Mike, your paraphrased is very clearly ststed in Vygotsky's essay, > >> The Socialist Alteration of Man, especially in the second through > >> fifth paragraphs. I think this may be the source of the phrase you > >> are looking for, though clearly Vygotsky is riffing on Engels. > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy > >> Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:23 PM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Cc: Mikhail Munipov > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > >> > >> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed from > >> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their own > >> history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. > >> > >> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky had > >> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is > >> taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian > >> expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and > >> development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 BCE > >> I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The > >> development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. > >> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: > >> > >> ?This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to > >> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the > >> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to > >> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of > >> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of > >> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human > >> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them > >> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the > >> cultural development of others has become degraded. > >> ?/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist > >> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented > >> among these primeval peoples, can only be called ?relatively > >> primitive.? Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the > >> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. > >> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data > >> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels > >> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of > >> different cultures.?(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) > >> > >> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" as > >> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates focuses > >> on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication that > >> the cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the > >> production of tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and > >> leading up to the formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no chapter > >> covering the period between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 years > >> ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. > >> > >> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges > >> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a > >> tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and > >> tool-using activity together. > >> > >> Andy > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> mike cole wrote: > >> > >>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. > >>> THANKS for the appropriate links! > >>> mike > >>> > >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played > >>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) > >>> > >>> > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/index.htm > >>> > >>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) > >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm > >>> > >>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by > >>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, > >>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry > >>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as > >>> a species. Then he says: > >>> > >>> "With men we enter /history/." > >>> > >>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making > >>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of > >>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than > >>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates > >>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution > >>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction > >>> between evolution of the species and historical development of > >>> culture. > >>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings > >>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the > >>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower > >>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could > >>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. > >>> > >>> Andy > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>> Dear Colleagues-- > >>> > >>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being > >>> attributed to Engels, > >>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being > >>> replaced by > >>> the laws of history." > >>> > >>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this > >>> "quotation" or as > >>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? > >>> > >>> mike > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Wed Jan 14 10:32:13 2015 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 13:32:13 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <1421258959804.38891@unm.edu> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> <54B67346.6010309@mira.net> <1421258959804.38891@unm.edu> Message-ID: Hi Annalisa, Here is a useful part of an XMCA discussion from 1/27/06 about ch. 4 of *Mind in Society* that may answer your question. Robert L. Wk 2: VygotskyVygotsky, Mind in Society, Ch 4: Internalization of Higher psychological FunctionsJoanne Price In this chapter, Vygotsky provides a distinction between tools and signs, the primary mediating artifacts that provide the evidence of higher psychological functioning. He believes that an imprecise use of metaphors associated with tools and signs might result in a blurring of the important distinction between them. And since the researcher?s task is ?to uncover the real relationship, not the figurative one, that exists between behavior and its auxiliary means? (p. 53), such a blurring would be disastrous. Vygotsky accuses Dewey of making just such an error in referring to language as the ?tool of tools.? Of the two, tools and signs, tools have perhaps tended to receive more focus, more investigation since they are external, tangible. But Vygotsky seems to be intrigued with signs, ?we seek to understand the behavioral role of the sign in all its uniqueness. This goal has motivated our empirical studies of how both tool and sign are mutually linked and yet separate?? Vygotsky uses three ways to compare and contrast tool and sign: 1. They are similar in that either can play a mediating role in activity. 2. They are different in the ways that they orient human behavior: a. A tool is externally oriented. It is a ?means by which human external activity masters nature. b. A sign is internally oriented. It s a ?means of ?mastering oneself.? 3. The real tie between these activities: the tie of their development in phylo- and onto-genesis. ?The mastering of nature and the mastering of behavior are mutually linked, just as man?s alteration of nature alters man?s own nature. I found this chapter shocking as it applies research in the workplace. There is so very little attention given to signs and their role in the development of activity and yet issues pertaining to ?signs? (because they are internally oriented) are perhaps the key stumbling-block to coordinated, distributed activity. From: "david leitch" (dleitch@ucsd.edu) Vygotsky begins Chapter Four of Mind in Society with a contention that, "the sign acts as an instrument of psychological activity in a manner analogous to the role of a tool in labor."(MiS 52) Here Vygotsky cautions against treating this analogy as an identity. On the one hand, treating the two as identical can lead, in Vygotsky's view, to meaningless expressions pretending to content: "The tongue is the tool of thought," for example. Once someone tries to interrogate this phrase for meaning, its vacuousness becomes clear. On the onther hand, treating sign and tool as identical can lead other psychologists, such as Dewey and other American pragmatists, to forget the important differences between them. In order to avoid this, Vygotsky reaches back to Hegel's famous aphorism regarding reason: "Reason is just as cunning as she is powerful. Her cunning consists principally in her mediating activity which, by causing objects to act and react on each other in accordance with their own nature, in this way, without any direct interference in the process, carries out reasons' intentions." (MiS 54 quoting "Encyklopadie, Eter Theil, Die Logik," which Vygotsky draws on from Marx's Capital [199]) Both tools and signs are like reason in that they cause intended actions without any direct interference in the process; they are subcategories of the general categoriy of mediated activity. The difference between them is that tools are used to mediate the physical world, and signs are used to mediate the psychological world. Therefore, tools are physical objects that mediate the physical world, such as wheels, pulleys, levers, and machines, and signs are psychological objects that mediate the mental world, such as mnemonics, gestures, and language. The physical and psychological worlds are analogous but not identical; note even the use of the term 'world' to describe what is psychologically mediated by signs; the term 'world' is itself a physical analogy, as there is no locatable psychological world. A crucial difference between the two is their orientation. The physical world is external to tool-user. The psychological world is internal to the sign-user. Therefore, ! tools orient the user externally and signs orient the user internally. These orientations are different things, but can take place together. Indeed, this combination is the defining characteristic of higher mental functions. The development of pointing, for example, takes place in Vygotsky's model through the combination of tools and signs. The parent acts as a tool, in that they act upon the physical world to give the child the child reaches for, and the gesture towards the object and the failed attempt to grasp it is the beginning of a sign, in that it acts indirectly upon the world, mediating the child's desires through the rubric of the cultural significance of pointing. Let me explain this in a little more detail. "We call the internal reconstruction of an external operation internalization." (MiS 56) In order to understand how internalization occurs, we must understand two things: what an external operation is and how it becomes reconstructed internally. Already from this sentence, however, we can see an important difference in Vygotsky's model from Piaget's. For Vygotsky, the higher mental functions begin externally, and move into the child, rather than vice-versa. This model opposes Piaget's conception of development as the increased external expression of internal development. This reversal is central for understanding Vygotsky because it encompasses the uniqueness of Vygotsky's thought. Modelling development as the external entering the internal emphasizes the need for a developmental model to account the transition from the external to the internal. For Vygotsky, this has two important effects, one of which I concentrate on in this account. First, this emphasis leads Vy! gotsky to the mediational aspects of his thought; signs and tools becomes central conceptual objects for Vygotsky because of the work they do in explaining the transition from the external to the internal. Second, Vygotksy's approach to signs and tools as conceptual categories forces Vygotsky to take account of culture in a much more nuanced, central way than previous thinkers had; as we will see, the innate sociability of man is the reason that operations begin externally. This accounting is not just a reaction against the Pavlovian Behaviorism that characterized the mainstream of Soviet psychology. Rather, it is the birth of a new way of approaching psychology, a way that takes an individuals' cultural memberships into account without denying the presence of the individual. Vygotsky uses the example of a child pointing to outline the process of internalization. At first, a child sees and recognizes an object, and reaches out to grasp it. If the child is successful, the child grasps the object and, given the child's age when they begin to point, will frequently put the object into their mouth. If the child is unsuccessful, the attempt is either witnessed or not. If the attempt is not witnessed, then the child will either locomote over to the object and attempt to grasp it again, or the child will give up. If, however, the failed attempt is witnessed, by a parent for example, then the process of internalization can begin. (MiS 56) The parent, seeing the child's failed attempt to grasp the object, understands that the child wishes to possess the object. Loving the child, the parent will frequently pass the object to the child. Consider this from the child's point of view. The attempt to grasp the object has succeeded, although through an unexpected means; rather than the gesture sucessfully interacting with the world directly, the gesture successfully acted on the wrold indirectly, mediated through a successful social interaction with the parent. "Consequently, the primary meaning of that unsuccessful grasping movement is established by others." (56) After some time, the child eventually comes to realize the primary meaning that has been established by the parent. At this point, the action of attempting to grasp an object becomes the action of pointing. The movement becomes simplified and oriented towards another person. So long as others respond to the gesture in the way the child has now come! to expect (by fetching the object), the social meaning of the gesture will be reinforced. See what has happened here. The child no longer acts directly on the world in order to grasp an object, but rather indirectly upon the world through others. The child's interaction with the objective world has become mediated through the cultural convention of pointing. In this way, a cultural meaning has been internalized by the child through a series of three transformations: An operation that initially represents an external activity is reconstructed and begins to occur internally An interpersonal process is transformed into an intrapersonal one The transformation of an interpersonal process into an intrapersonal one is the result of a long series of developmental events From: "Matt Brown" (mjb001@ucsd.edu) > Both tools and signs are like reason in that they cause intended > actions without any direct interference in the process; they are > subcategories of the general categoriy of mediated activity. The > difference between them is that tools are used to mediate the > physical world, and signs are used to mediate the psychological > world. Therefore, tools are physical objects that mediate the > physical world, such as wheels, pulleys, levers, and machines, and > signs are psychological objects that mediate the mental world, such > as mnemonics, gestures, and language. I'm a little worried about this inference, but I guess that's because I'm not sure what you mean by "psychological object." Surely, signs aren't (always?) psychological objects in the sense of ideas or mental representations. Traffic signs, words on a page, the sign on the bathroom door, gestures and spoken words are all signs, but they likewise have a material aspect. Similarly, tools also have an ideal side. They aren't merely physical objects, because they are what they are in virtue of having a history and being part of a culture. On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 1:09 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi, > > Isn't a sign equivalent to a tool, that language itself is a tool? > > Or are there different transformations in the brain going on depending > upon which sense it enters? Ears, touch, eyes, smell, taste? > > Don't these all function similarly in the way they transform mind through > perception? I don't know what is gained by separating them since we don't > experience our senses as separate functions; they are connected to one > another through the body. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+annalisa=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy > Blunden > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 6:46 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Just a couple more quotes from Vygotsky which shed some light on Mike's > question. These come from the last paragraphs of Chapter 1 of "Ape, > Primitive Man and Child." > > "Once symbols enabling man to control his own behavioral processes > had been invented and were in use, the history of the development of > behavior became transformed, to a large extent, into the history of > the development of those auxiliary artificial "means of behavior", > and the history of man's control over his own behavior." > > So it is essentially sign-use which characterises cultural development, > not tool-use, and going to the question of whether there are two > temporally distinct phases of development: > > "This of course does not mean that, left to itself, the development > of the hand, that fundamental organ, and of the intellect came to an > end as soon as man's historical development began. Quite the > contrary: the hand and the brain, as natural organs, probably never > developed so rapidly, and at such a gigantic pace, as during the > period of historical development." > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Andy Blunden wrote: > > Jessica refers to: > > > > "Indeed, the struggle for existence and natural selection, the two > > driving forces of biological evolution within the animal world, lose > > their decisive importance as soon as we pass on to the historical > > development of man. New laws, which regulate the course of human > > history and which cover the entire process of the material and > > mental development of human society, now take their place." > > > > Andy > > PS, I am not the translator, Jessica, just the transcriber. Ren? van > > der Veer and Jaan Valsiner did all the work, and I just scanned it to > > HTML. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Kindred, Jessica Dr. wrote: > >> Mike, your paraphrased is very clearly ststed in Vygotsky's essay, > >> The Socialist Alteration of Man, especially in the second through > >> fifth paragraphs. I think this may be the source of the phrase you > >> are looking for, though clearly Vygotsky is riffing on Engels. > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy > >> Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:23 PM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Cc: Mikhail Munipov > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > >> > >> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed from > >> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their own > >> history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. > >> > >> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky had > >> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is > >> taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian > >> expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and > >> development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 BCE > >> I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The > >> development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. > >> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: > >> > >> ?This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to > >> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the > >> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to > >> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of > >> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of > >> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human > >> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them > >> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the > >> cultural development of others has become degraded. > >> ?/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist > >> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented > >> among these primeval peoples, can only be called ?relatively > >> primitive.? Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the > >> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. > >> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data > >> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels > >> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of > >> different cultures.?(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) > >> > >> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" as > >> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates focuses > >> on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication that > >> the cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the > >> production of tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and > >> leading up to the formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no chapter > >> covering the period between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 years > >> ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. > >> > >> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges > >> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a > >> tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and > >> tool-using activity together. > >> > >> Andy > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> mike cole wrote: > >> > >>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. > >>> THANKS for the appropriate links! > >>> mike > >>> > >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played > >>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) > >>> > >>> > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/index.htm > >>> > >>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) > >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm > >>> > >>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by > >>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, > >>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry > >>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as > >>> a species. Then he says: > >>> > >>> "With men we enter /history/." > >>> > >>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making > >>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of > >>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than > >>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates > >>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution > >>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction > >>> between evolution of the species and historical development of > >>> culture. > >>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings > >>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the > >>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower > >>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could > >>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. > >>> > >>> Andy > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>> Dear Colleagues-- > >>> > >>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being > >>> attributed to Engels, > >>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being > >>> replaced by > >>> the laws of history." > >>> > >>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this > >>> "quotation" or as > >>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? > >>> > >>> mike > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 From helenaworthen@gmail.com Wed Jan 14 11:06:00 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 11:06:00 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> Message-ID: <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> And there's this: https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201102/roads.of.arabia.htm This is a gorgeous exhibit, if it comes near you. For the text about writing 2000-1500 BCE, scroll about half way down. The exhibit has stones, set side by side, with different ancient scripts. Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Jan 13, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: > Here's a little side track: There's a web trace of a 2010 well-curated museum exhibit on writing from the U of Chicago Oriental Institute. > http://oi.uchicago.edu/museum/special/writing/ > > And here are a few little outtakes: > "four instances and places in human history when writing was invented from scratch ? in Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Mesoamerica ? without previous exposure to or knowledge of writing. It appears likely that all other writing systems evolved from the four systems we have in our exhibition." > "the earliest cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia (today's Iraq), dating to about 3200 BC," > " early Egyptian writing that includes tags and labels from the tombs of the first kings (about 3320 BC) as well as hieroglyphic writing and other scripts from the Nile Valley." > " Chinese writing, which emerged about 1200 BC, will be shown on oracle bones" > " Mayan hieroglyphs from the 7th century AD will show how early Mesoamericans wrote." > " Long believed to have been invented in Phoenicia in about 1000 BC, the earliest alphabetic texts are now those found in the Sinai. This earliest alphabet was derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs as early as 1800 BC, well over five hundred years earlier than had been known." > There are some lovely little animations about the development of cuneiform and one animation about a hieroglyph changing and eventually appropriated for a Greek letter. > > I love this little site and fear the day I try to open it and find U of Chicago has abandoned it? > Peg > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:24 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: Mikhail Munipov > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their own history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. > > Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky had poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 BCE I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. > Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: > > ?This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to > designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the > lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to > call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of > civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of > them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human > existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them > have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the > cultural development of others has become degraded. > ?/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist > anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented > among these primeval peoples, can only be called ?relatively > primitive.? Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the > starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. > Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data > concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels > of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of > different cultures.?(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) > > And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" as distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates focuses on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication that the cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the production of tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and leading up to the formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no chapter covering the period between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 years ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. > > According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and tool-using activity together. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: >> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >> THANKS for the appropriate links! >> mike >> >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: >> >> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/index.htm >> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >> >> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >> a species. Then he says: >> >> "With men we enter /history/." >> >> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >> between evolution of the species and historical development of >> culture. >> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >> >> Andy >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues-- >> >> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >> attributed to Engels, >> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >> replaced by >> the laws of history." >> >> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >> "quotation" or as >> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >> >> mike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> From juanma.duarte@gmail.com Wed Jan 14 11:38:14 2015 From: juanma.duarte@gmail.com (Juan Duarte) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 16:38:14 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ok Andy, y see your point. 2015-01-14 16:06 GMT-03:00 Helena Worthen : > And there's this: > > https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201102/roads.of.arabia.htm > > This is a gorgeous exhibit, if it comes near you. For the text about > writing 2000-1500 BCE, scroll about half way down. The exhibit has stones, > set side by side, with different ancient scripts. > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Jan 13, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: > > > Here's a little side track: There's a web trace of a 2010 well-curated > museum exhibit on writing from the U of Chicago Oriental Institute. > > http://oi.uchicago.edu/museum/special/writing/ > > > > And here are a few little outtakes: > > "four instances and places in human history when writing > was invented from scratch ? in Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Mesoamerica ? > without previous exposure to or knowledge of writing. It appears likely > that all other writing systems evolved from the four systems we have in our > exhibition." > > "the earliest cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia (today's > Iraq), dating to about 3200 BC," > > " early Egyptian writing that includes tags and labels > from the tombs of the first kings (about 3320 BC) as well as hieroglyphic > writing and other scripts from the Nile Valley." > > " Chinese writing, which emerged about 1200 BC, will be > shown on oracle bones" > > " Mayan hieroglyphs from the 7th century AD will show how > early Mesoamericans wrote." > > " Long believed to have been invented in Phoenicia in > about 1000 BC, the earliest alphabetic texts are now those found in the > Sinai. This earliest alphabet was derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs as > early as 1800 BC, well over five hundred years earlier than had been known." > > There are some lovely little animations about the development of > cuneiform and one animation about a hieroglyph changing and eventually > appropriated for a Greek letter. > > > > I love this little site and fear the day I try to open it and find U of > Chicago has abandoned it? > > Peg > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy > Blunden > > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:24 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Cc: Mikhail Munipov > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > > > Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed from > animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their own > history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. > > > > Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky had > poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is taken > to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian > expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and > development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 BCE I > think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The > development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. > > Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: > > > > ?This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to > > designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the > > lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to > > call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of > > civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of > > them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human > > existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them > > have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the > > cultural development of others has become degraded. > > ?/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist > > anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented > > among these primeval peoples, can only be called ?relatively > > primitive.? Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the > > starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. > > Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data > > concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels > > of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of > > different cultures.?(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) > > > > And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" as > distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates focuses on > the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication that the > cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the production > of tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and leading up to the > formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no chapter covering the period > between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 years ago, where cultural and > biological formation are interacting. > > > > According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges > simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a tool > until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and tool-using > activity together. > > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > >> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. > >> THANKS for the appropriate links! > >> mike > >> > >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: > >> > >> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played > >> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) > >> > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/index.htm > >> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) > >> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm > >> > >> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by > >> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, > >> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry > >> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as > >> a species. Then he says: > >> > >> "With men we enter /history/." > >> > >> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making > >> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of > >> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than > >> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates > >> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution > >> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction > >> between evolution of the species and historical development of > >> culture. > >> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings > >> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the > >> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower > >> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could > >> count for what you are looking for, Mike. > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> mike cole wrote: > >> > >> Dear Colleagues-- > >> > >> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being > >> attributed to Engels, > >> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being > >> replaced by > >> the laws of history." > >> > >> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this > >> "quotation" or as > >> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? > >> > >> mike > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >> > >> > > > -- Juan From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jan 14 12:39:33 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 20:39:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <1421267973164.63927@unm.edu> Hi all, I realize there is an important value of not treating signs and language and tools as identical entities. I suppose my question then has more to do with how these mediations key into perception and embodied experience? Vygotsky's separation of signs as a cultural indication is not without value, and I don't mean to spoil that distinction. Still, what happens when the tool IS a sign, or the sign IS a tool? Consider the computer, for example, how it is both tool and sign. Is it not like the red hot iron ball? We can never separate out the fire from the iron and the iron from the fire except when we conceptually understand the attributes of iron and of fire. If we do not understand them as conceptually separate, then we can confuse the properties with iron with that of fire and vice versa. But in terms of material, it is impossible to look at the red hot iron ball and materially separate them at that moment in time. To our perception, it may appear that the fire is round and heavy or the iron is red and hot (hence red hot iron ball as represented in our language), but we know that it is iron that gives shape and weight, and fire that gives temperature and color. However even if we confuse them, that is a kind of mediation. It may not be an informed one, but it has an apparent reality that is acted upon as such. We don't really change our behavior in the hot sunshine knowing that the earth goes round the sun, even if we perceive it the other way around. In fact our perceptions are the means in which we reason to take off our sweaters, right? Kind regards, Annalisa From Peg.Griffin@att.net Wed Jan 14 13:30:36 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 16:30:36 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> Thanks, Helena! It is lovely. A while ago I had skimmed it but misplaced ways to get to it for deep reading and use of it. Besides just liking this sort of thing, I've had some luck getting teacher ed students to see contemporary cultural and language diversity a little differently when they get a chance to see history they might have missed out on in their prior education. Peg -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 2:06 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: 'Mikhail Munipov' Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history And there's this: https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201102/roads.of.arabia.htm This is a gorgeous exhibit, if it comes near you. For the text about writing 2000-1500 BCE, scroll about half way down. The exhibit has stones, set side by side, with different ancient scripts. Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Jan 13, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: > Here's a little side track: There's a web trace of a 2010 well-curated museum exhibit on writing from the U of Chicago Oriental Institute. > http://oi.uchicago.edu/museum/special/writing/ > > And here are a few little outtakes: > "four instances and places in human history when writing was invented from scratch - in Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Mesoamerica - without previous exposure to or knowledge of writing. It appears likely that all other writing systems evolved from the four systems we have in our exhibition." > "the earliest cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia (today's Iraq), dating to about 3200 BC," > " early Egyptian writing that includes tags and labels from the tombs of the first kings (about 3320 BC) as well as hieroglyphic writing and other scripts from the Nile Valley." > " Chinese writing, which emerged about 1200 BC, will be shown on oracle bones" > " Mayan hieroglyphs from the 7th century AD will show how early Mesoamericans wrote." > " Long believed to have been invented in Phoenicia in about 1000 BC, the earliest alphabetic texts are now those found in the Sinai. This earliest alphabet was derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs as early as 1800 BC, well over five hundred years earlier than had been known." > There are some lovely little animations about the development of cuneiform and one animation about a hieroglyph changing and eventually appropriated for a Greek letter. > > I love this little site and fear the day I try to open it and find U > of Chicago has abandoned it. Peg > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf > Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:24 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: Mikhail Munipov > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their own history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. > > Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky had poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 BCE I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. > Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: > > "This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to > designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the > lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to > call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of > civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of > them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human > existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them > have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the > cultural development of others has become degraded. > "/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist > anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented > among these primeval peoples, can only be called "relatively > primitive." Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the > starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. > Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data > concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels > of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of > different cultures."(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) > > And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" as distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates focuses on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication that the cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the production of tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and leading up to the formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no chapter covering the period between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 years ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. > > According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and tool-using activity together. > > Andy > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: >> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >> THANKS for the appropriate links! >> mike >> >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: >> >> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/index.htm >> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >> >> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >> a species. Then he says: >> >> "With men we enter /history/." >> >> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >> between evolution of the species and historical development of >> culture. >> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >> >> Andy >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues-- >> >> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >> attributed to Engels, >> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >> replaced by >> the laws of history." >> >> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >> "quotation" or as >> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >> >> mike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Jan 14 16:17:39 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 17:17:39 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> Message-ID: <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> Yes, thank you, Helen I have a couple of questions: 1)The movie Cave of Forgotten Dreams focuses on cave drawings of Southern France that date back 32,000 years. Writing may date back only about 5 thousand years, but I understand that writing systems begin with pictographs, like in the caves of southern France. Is that relevant to this thread? 2) Does oral history count as history? Henry I have a question > On Jan 14, 2015, at 2:30 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: > > Thanks, Helena! It is lovely. A while ago I had skimmed it but misplaced > ways to get to it for deep reading and use of it. > Besides just liking this sort of thing, I've had some luck getting teacher > ed students to see contemporary cultural and language diversity a little > differently when they get a chance to see history they might have missed out > on in their prior education. > Peg > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 2:06 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: 'Mikhail Munipov' > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > And there's this: > > https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201102/roads.of.arabia.htm > > This is a gorgeous exhibit, if it comes near you. For the text about writing > 2000-1500 BCE, scroll about half way down. The exhibit has stones, set side > by side, with different ancient scripts. > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Jan 13, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: > >> Here's a little side track: There's a web trace of a 2010 well-curated > museum exhibit on writing from the U of Chicago Oriental Institute. >> http://oi.uchicago.edu/museum/special/writing/ >> >> And here are a few little outtakes: >> "four instances and places in human history when writing was > invented from scratch - in Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Mesoamerica - > without previous exposure to or knowledge of writing. It appears likely that > all other writing systems evolved from the four systems we have in our > exhibition." >> "the earliest cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia (today's > Iraq), dating to about 3200 BC," >> " early Egyptian writing that includes tags and labels from > the tombs of the first kings (about 3320 BC) as well as hieroglyphic writing > and other scripts from the Nile Valley." >> " Chinese writing, which emerged about 1200 BC, will be > shown on oracle bones" >> " Mayan hieroglyphs from the 7th century AD will show how > early Mesoamericans wrote." >> " Long believed to have been invented in Phoenicia in about > 1000 BC, the earliest alphabetic texts are now those found in the Sinai. > This earliest alphabet was derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs as early as > 1800 BC, well over five hundred years earlier than had been known." >> There are some lovely little animations about the development of cuneiform > and one animation about a hieroglyph changing and eventually appropriated > for a Greek letter. >> >> I love this little site and fear the day I try to open it and find U >> of Chicago has abandoned it. Peg >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf >> Of Andy Blunden >> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:24 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: Mikhail Munipov >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >> >> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed from > animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their own > history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. >> >> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky had > poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is taken to > mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian expedition, > and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and development of > *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 BCE I think, in any > case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The development of writing > is nothing to do with evolution of the species. >> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: >> >> "This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to >> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the >> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to >> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of >> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of >> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human >> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them >> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the >> cultural development of others has become degraded. >> "/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist >> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented >> among these primeval peoples, can only be called "relatively >> primitive." Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the >> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. >> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data >> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels >> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of >> different cultures."(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) >> >> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" as > distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates focuses on > the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication that the > cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the production of > tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and leading up to the > formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no chapter covering the period > between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 years ago, where cultural and > biological formation are interacting. >> >> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges > simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a tool > until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and tool-using > activity together. >> >> Andy >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >>> THANKS for the appropriate links! >>> mike >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >>> >>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >>> > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/index.htm >>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >>> >>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >>> a species. Then he says: >>> >>> "With men we enter /history/." >>> >>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >>> between evolution of the species and historical development of >>> culture. >>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues-- >>> >>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >>> attributed to Engels, >>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >>> replaced by >>> the laws of history." >>> >>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >>> "quotation" or as >>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> > > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Wed Jan 14 18:43:53 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 18:43:53 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> Message-ID: I love that movie! I don't know whether all writing systems began any particular way. Wow, does oral history count as history? Great questions and boy do I ever NOT have a simple answer. I would love to hear a bunch of folklorists or people who collect oral histories sit around and chew on this one. Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Jan 14, 2015, at 4:17 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Yes, thank you, Helen > I have a couple of questions: > 1)The movie Cave of Forgotten Dreams focuses on cave drawings of Southern France that date back 32,000 years. Writing may date back only about 5 thousand years, but I understand that writing systems begin with pictographs, like in the caves of southern France. Is that relevant to this thread? > 2) Does oral history count as history? > Henry > > > > > > I have a question >> On Jan 14, 2015, at 2:30 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: >> >> Thanks, Helena! It is lovely. A while ago I had skimmed it but misplaced >> ways to get to it for deep reading and use of it. >> Besides just liking this sort of thing, I've had some luck getting teacher >> ed students to see contemporary cultural and language diversity a little >> differently when they get a chance to see history they might have missed out >> on in their prior education. >> Peg >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen >> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 2:06 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: 'Mikhail Munipov' >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >> >> And there's this: >> >> https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201102/roads.of.arabia.htm >> >> This is a gorgeous exhibit, if it comes near you. For the text about writing >> 2000-1500 BCE, scroll about half way down. The exhibit has stones, set side >> by side, with different ancient scripts. >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> >> On Jan 13, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: >> >>> Here's a little side track: There's a web trace of a 2010 well-curated >> museum exhibit on writing from the U of Chicago Oriental Institute. >>> http://oi.uchicago.edu/museum/special/writing/ >>> >>> And here are a few little outtakes: >>> "four instances and places in human history when writing was >> invented from scratch - in Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Mesoamerica - >> without previous exposure to or knowledge of writing. It appears likely that >> all other writing systems evolved from the four systems we have in our >> exhibition." >>> "the earliest cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia (today's >> Iraq), dating to about 3200 BC," >>> " early Egyptian writing that includes tags and labels from >> the tombs of the first kings (about 3320 BC) as well as hieroglyphic writing >> and other scripts from the Nile Valley." >>> " Chinese writing, which emerged about 1200 BC, will be >> shown on oracle bones" >>> " Mayan hieroglyphs from the 7th century AD will show how >> early Mesoamericans wrote." >>> " Long believed to have been invented in Phoenicia in about >> 1000 BC, the earliest alphabetic texts are now those found in the Sinai. >> This earliest alphabet was derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs as early as >> 1800 BC, well over five hundred years earlier than had been known." >>> There are some lovely little animations about the development of cuneiform >> and one animation about a hieroglyph changing and eventually appropriated >> for a Greek letter. >>> >>> I love this little site and fear the day I try to open it and find U >>> of Chicago has abandoned it. Peg >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf >>> Of Andy Blunden >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:24 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Cc: Mikhail Munipov >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >>> >>> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed from >> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their own >> history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. >>> >>> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky had >> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is taken to >> mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian expedition, >> and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and development of >> *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 BCE I think, in any >> case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The development of writing >> is nothing to do with evolution of the species. >>> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: >>> >>> "This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to >>> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the >>> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to >>> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of >>> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of >>> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human >>> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them >>> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the >>> cultural development of others has become degraded. >>> "/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist >>> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented >>> among these primeval peoples, can only be called "relatively >>> primitive." Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the >>> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. >>> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data >>> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels >>> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of >>> different cultures."(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) >>> >>> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" as >> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates focuses on >> the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication that the >> cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the production of >> tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and leading up to the >> formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no chapter covering the period >> between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 years ago, where cultural and >> biological formation are interacting. >>> >>> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges >> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a tool >> until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and tool-using >> activity together. >>> >>> Andy >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >>>> THANKS for the appropriate links! >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >>>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >>>> >> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/index.htm >>>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >>>> >>>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >>>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >>>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >>>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >>>> a species. Then he says: >>>> >>>> "With men we enter /history/." >>>> >>>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >>>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >>>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >>>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >>>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >>>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >>>> between evolution of the species and historical development of >>>> culture. >>>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >>>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >>>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >>>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >>>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> >>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Colleagues-- >>>> >>>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >>>> attributed to Engels, >>>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >>>> replaced by >>>> the laws of history." >>>> >>>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >>>> "quotation" or as >>>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>>> >> >> > > From Peg.Griffin@att.net Wed Jan 14 20:07:03 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 23:07:03 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> About writing origins, Henry: There's some accessible and reliable info through that U of Chicago Oriental Institute museum web-site I mentioned. You can download the catalog for free - over 200 pages of good essays and illustrations. http://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/oimp3 2.pdf The first chapter has a good discussion about writing and other early graphic representations from art and administrative functions. It has a reasonable bibliography. Subsequent specialized chapters also carry good documentation. It's certainly a good start if you want to follow this up. Peg Griffin, Ph. D. Washington, DC 20003 -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 7:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history Yes, thank you, Helen I have a couple of questions: 1)The movie Cave of Forgotten Dreams focuses on cave drawings of Southern France that date back 32,000 years. Writing may date back only about 5 thousand years, but I understand that writing systems begin with pictographs, like in the caves of southern France. Is that relevant to this thread? 2) Does oral history count as history? Henry I have a question > On Jan 14, 2015, at 2:30 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: > > Thanks, Helena! It is lovely. A while ago I had skimmed it but > misplaced ways to get to it for deep reading and use of it. > Besides just liking this sort of thing, I've had some luck getting > teacher ed students to see contemporary cultural and language > diversity a little differently when they get a chance to see history > they might have missed out on in their prior education. > Peg > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 2:06 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: 'Mikhail Munipov' > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > And there's this: > > https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201102/roads.of.arabia.htm > > This is a gorgeous exhibit, if it comes near you. For the text about > writing > 2000-1500 BCE, scroll about half way down. The exhibit has stones, set > side by side, with different ancient scripts. > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Jan 13, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: > >> Here's a little side track: There's a web trace of a 2010 >> well-curated > museum exhibit on writing from the U of Chicago Oriental Institute. >> http://oi.uchicago.edu/museum/special/writing/ >> >> And here are a few little outtakes: >> "four instances and places in human history when writing was > invented from scratch - in Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Mesoamerica - > without previous exposure to or knowledge of writing. It appears > likely that all other writing systems evolved from the four systems we > have in our exhibition." >> "the earliest cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia (today's > Iraq), dating to about 3200 BC," >> " early Egyptian writing that includes tags and labels from > the tombs of the first kings (about 3320 BC) as well as hieroglyphic > writing and other scripts from the Nile Valley." >> " Chinese writing, which emerged about 1200 BC, will be > shown on oracle bones" >> " Mayan hieroglyphs from the 7th century AD will show how > early Mesoamericans wrote." >> " Long believed to have been invented in Phoenicia in about > 1000 BC, the earliest alphabetic texts are now those found in the Sinai. > This earliest alphabet was derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs as early > as > 1800 BC, well over five hundred years earlier than had been known." >> There are some lovely little animations about the development of >> cuneiform > and one animation about a hieroglyph changing and eventually > appropriated for a Greek letter. >> >> I love this little site and fear the day I try to open it and find U >> of Chicago has abandoned it. Peg >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >> Behalf Of Andy Blunden >> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:24 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: Mikhail Munipov >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >> >> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed >> from > animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their > own history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. >> >> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky >> had > poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is > taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian > expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and > development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 > BCE I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. > The development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. >> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: >> >> "This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to >> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the >> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to >> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of >> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of >> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human >> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them >> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the >> cultural development of others has become degraded. >> "/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist >> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented >> among these primeval peoples, can only be called "relatively >> primitive." Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the >> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. >> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data >> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels >> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of >> different cultures."(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) >> >> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" >> as > distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates > focuses on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the > implication that the cultural development around the emergence of > labour, i.e., the production of tools, was part of evolutionary > development, prior and leading up to the formation of homo sapiens > sapiens. There is no chapter covering the period between 2 million > years ago and say `00,000 years ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. >> >> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges > simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a > tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and > tool-using activity together. >> >> Andy >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -- >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >>> THANKS for the appropriate links! >>> mike >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >>> >>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >>> > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/ind > ex.htm >>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >>> >>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >>> a species. Then he says: >>> >>> "With men we enter /history/." >>> >>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >>> between evolution of the species and historical development of >>> culture. >>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues-- >>> >>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >>> attributed to Engels, >>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >>> replaced by >>> the laws of history." >>> >>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >>> "quotation" or as >>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> > > From ablunden@mira.net Wed Jan 14 20:24:05 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 15:24:05 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> Message-ID: <54B740E5.4070206@mira.net> Peg, does my remark that writing was invented "for administrative purposes" stand up? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Peg Griffin wrote: > About writing origins, Henry: There's some accessible and reliable info > through that U of Chicago Oriental Institute museum web-site I mentioned. > You can download the catalog for free - over 200 pages of good essays and > illustrations. > http://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/oimp3 > 2.pdf > The first chapter has a good discussion about writing and other early > graphic representations from art and administrative functions. It has a > reasonable bibliography. Subsequent specialized chapters also carry good > documentation. It's certainly a good start if you want to follow this up. > > Peg Griffin, Ph. D. > Washington, DC 20003 > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 7:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Yes, thank you, Helen > I have a couple of questions: > 1)The movie Cave of Forgotten Dreams focuses on cave drawings of Southern > France that date back 32,000 years. Writing may date back only about 5 > thousand years, but I understand that writing systems begin with > pictographs, like in the caves of southern France. Is that relevant to this > thread? > 2) Does oral history count as history? > Henry > > > > > > I have a question > >> On Jan 14, 2015, at 2:30 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: >> >> Thanks, Helena! It is lovely. A while ago I had skimmed it but >> misplaced ways to get to it for deep reading and use of it. >> Besides just liking this sort of thing, I've had some luck getting >> teacher ed students to see contemporary cultural and language >> diversity a little differently when they get a chance to see history >> they might have missed out on in their prior education. >> Peg >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen >> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 2:06 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: 'Mikhail Munipov' >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >> >> And there's this: >> >> https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201102/roads.of.arabia.htm >> >> This is a gorgeous exhibit, if it comes near you. For the text about >> writing >> 2000-1500 BCE, scroll about half way down. The exhibit has stones, set >> side by side, with different ancient scripts. >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> >> On Jan 13, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: >> >> >>> Here's a little side track: There's a web trace of a 2010 >>> well-curated >>> >> museum exhibit on writing from the U of Chicago Oriental Institute. >> >>> http://oi.uchicago.edu/museum/special/writing/ >>> >>> And here are a few little outtakes: >>> "four instances and places in human history when writing was >>> >> invented from scratch - in Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Mesoamerica - >> without previous exposure to or knowledge of writing. It appears >> likely that all other writing systems evolved from the four systems we >> have in our exhibition." >> >>> "the earliest cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia (today's >>> >> Iraq), dating to about 3200 BC," >> >>> " early Egyptian writing that includes tags and labels from >>> >> the tombs of the first kings (about 3320 BC) as well as hieroglyphic >> writing and other scripts from the Nile Valley." >> >>> " Chinese writing, which emerged about 1200 BC, will be >>> >> shown on oracle bones" >> >>> " Mayan hieroglyphs from the 7th century AD will show how >>> >> early Mesoamericans wrote." >> >>> " Long believed to have been invented in Phoenicia in about >>> >> 1000 BC, the earliest alphabetic texts are now those found in the Sinai. >> This earliest alphabet was derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs as early >> as >> 1800 BC, well over five hundred years earlier than had been known." >> >>> There are some lovely little animations about the development of >>> cuneiform >>> >> and one animation about a hieroglyph changing and eventually >> appropriated for a Greek letter. >> >>> I love this little site and fear the day I try to open it and find U >>> of Chicago has abandoned it. Peg >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >>> Behalf Of Andy Blunden >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:24 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Cc: Mikhail Munipov >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >>> >>> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed >>> from >>> >> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their >> own history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. >> >>> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky >>> had >>> >> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is >> taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian >> expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and >> development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 >> BCE I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. >> The development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. >> >>> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: >>> >>> "This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to >>> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the >>> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to >>> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of >>> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of >>> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human >>> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them >>> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the >>> cultural development of others has become degraded. >>> "/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist >>> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented >>> among these primeval peoples, can only be called "relatively >>> primitive." Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the >>> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. >>> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data >>> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels >>> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of >>> different cultures."(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) >>> >>> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" >>> as >>> >> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates >> focuses on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the >> implication that the cultural development around the emergence of >> labour, i.e., the production of tools, was part of evolutionary >> development, prior and leading up to the formation of homo sapiens >> sapiens. There is no chapter covering the period between 2 million >> years ago and say `00,000 years ago, where cultural and biological >> > formation are interacting. > >>> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges >>> >> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a >> tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and >> tool-using activity together. >> >>> Andy >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> -- >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >>>> THANKS for the appropriate links! >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >>>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >>>> >>>> >> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/ind >> ex.htm >> >>>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >>>> >>>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >>>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >>>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >>>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >>>> a species. Then he says: >>>> >>>> "With men we enter /history/." >>>> >>>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >>>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >>>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >>>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >>>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >>>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >>>> between evolution of the species and historical development of >>>> culture. >>>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >>>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >>>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >>>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >>>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Colleagues-- >>>> >>>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >>>> attributed to Engels, >>>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >>>> replaced by >>>> the laws of history." >>>> >>>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >>>> "quotation" or as >>>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> > > > > > From mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu Wed Jan 14 20:41:44 2015 From: mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu (Zavala, Miguel) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 04:41:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54B740E5.4070206@mira.net> Message-ID: The following is worth reading in light of the discussion. Origin his/her-stories are often imbued with meta-narratives; we have concepts (and science too) to guide is into the distant past, which is also present in everyday life. Please excuse the text, I had to export from a PDF image. -Miguel Zavala ---------------------------------------- AN UNCONVENTIONAL HISTORY OF WRITING SOURCE: Gunther Kress & Theo Van Leeuwen,"Chapter 1.The Semiotic Landscape: Language and Visual Communication." The dominance of the verbal, written medium over other visual media is firmly codedand buttressed in conventional histories of writing. These go something like this. Languagein its spoken form is a natural phenomenon, common to all human groups. Writing, however, is the achievement of only some (historically,by far the minority of) cultures. At a particu?lar stage in the historyof certain cultures,there developed the need to make recordsof transactions of various kinds, associated usually with trade, religionor (governing) power. These records were initially highly iconic; that is, the relation between the object to be recorded and the forms and means of recording was close and transparent. For instance, the number of notches in a stick would representthe number of objects stored or traded or owed. The Representation of the object would usually also be transparent: a wavy line eventually became the Chinese ideogram for 'water';the hieroglyphic image of the ox's head which initially 'stood for' 'ox' eventually became the letter aleph (),alpha (a), a. This example illustrates what in these histories is regarded as the rarest of all achievements, the invention of alphabetic writing. Alphabetic writing developed,it seems clear, out of iconic, image-based scripts. In these originalscript forms, an object was initially represented by an image of that object. Over time, in the use of the script by different groups,speaking different languages, the image of the object came to stand for the name of the object and then for its initialletter.Aleph, 'ox' in Egyptian hieroglyphics, after centuries of travel and constant transformation through the culturesand languages of the easternMediterranean, became the letter alpha, and eventually the letter a in the Roman alphabet. Clearly this was a process where each step involved considerable abstraction, so much so that, seemingly, alphabetic writing has been inventedonly once in the historyof human cultures.All present alphabetic scripts, from India to the MiddleEast to Europe, are developments of that initial step from Egyptian (or possibly Sumerian) iconic hieroglyphic representation to the Phoenician alphabet, and from there westward to the Greek-speaking world, and eastwardto the Indian subcontinent, or, in the region of its origin, developing into the Arabic version of the alphabet. This is indeed an impressive cultural history, impressive enough to have stood as the acceptedhistorical account of the achievement of (alphabetic) writing,unquestioned for centuries.Within this account, all cultureswith forms of visual representation that are not directly connected to language are treated as cultures withoutwriting. However, it isworth investigating this history, and in particular the crucial step from visual representation to the link with language,a little more closely.Prior to this step (in reality a development spanning millennia) there were two separate and independent modes of representation. One was language-as-speech; the other, the visualimage, or visual marks. Each served a par? ticularset of purposes such as the construction of histories and myths, the recording of genealogies and transactions, and the recordingand measurement of objects. In the case of some cultures,however, the one form of representation 'tookover' the other, as a means of recording; that is, visualrepresentation became specialized - one could say,reduced- to function as a means of the visual representation of speech,perhaps in highly organized and bureaucratized societies. At this point the visual was subsumed,taken over, by the verbalas its means of recording. Consequently its former public uses, possibilities and potentials for independent representation disappeared, declined and withered away. In the case of other cultures,however, this development did not occur. Here the visual continued, along with the verbal means of representation. Instances of this abound:from the one extreme of the Inca quipu strings (sensorily the tactile mode of representation) to Australian Aboriginal drawings, sand-paintings and carvings. These encode, in a manner not at all directly dependent on, or a 'translation' of, verbal language, meanings of the culture which are deemed to be best represented in visual form. They are connected with language, or language with them, so that wall-paintings or sand-paintings, for instance, are accompanied by verbal recounts of geographical features, journeys, ancestor myths,and so on. However, in these cases there is no question of the priority of the one over the other mode, and the visual has certainly not become subsumedto the verbal as its form of representation. In this connection it is interesting to consider the history of two wordswhich in a sense are synonymous with Western notions of literacy,the words grammar and syntax. Gram? mar derives from the Greek grammatike ('the art of reading and writing','grammar','alphabet'); related words were gramma ('sign','letter','alphabet'), grammatikos ('liter? ate','(primary) teacher','grammarian'). This etymology records the state of thingsin the Hellenistic period (from approximately 300sc); in earliertimes the meaning'sign',as in 'painted or drawn [etc.]mark' was the primary meaning.In Homer,for example, the verb graphein still means 'scratch','scratch in', as in engraving, and from there it comes to mean both 'writing' and 'drawing','painting'. Syntaxis, in pre-Hellenistic times, meant 'contract', 'wage','organization','system','battle formation',with syntagma, for instance, 'contingent of troops','constitution (of a state)','book or treatise'. Only in the Hellenistic period does syntaxis come to mean (among its othermeanings) 'grammatical construc? tion'. The verb syntasso, again, means both 'arrange battleformations' and 'concentrate Cone's thoughts)','organize','write','compose'. While we do not wish to place too much emphasis on etymology,nevertheless the history of these two words which are so crucial to our notions of literacy points to forms of social organization and order, on the one hand, and to visual 'markings' on the other. Together they indicate the initially quite independent organization of the mode of images and the mode of verbal language. At the same time, the subsequent history of the word grammar brings out clearly the subordination of the visual medium to the medium of verbal lan? guage. Cultures which still retain the full use of both media of representation are, from the point of view of 'literate cultures', regarded as illiterate, impoverished, underdeveloped, when in fact they have a richer array of means of representation than that overtly and consciously available to literate cultures.Nevertheless, as we pointed out earlier, literatecultures do make use of means of visual communication other than writing, be it that they are seen as uncoded replicas of reality or as a means of individual expression by children or artists.In other words, they are not treated as either the expressions of, or accessible to means of reading based on, articulated, rational and social meanings. Our unconventional history of writingis one that treats the coming together of visual and verbal representation as only one possibility, and one, furthermore, that brings with it not just those benefits of writing which are well enough understood, but also the negative aspects incurred in the loss of an independent form of representation, the diminution of modes of expression and representation. From that point of view cultures such as Austral?ian Aboriginal cultures are seen as having both modes of representation: the visual (or perhaps a whole set of visual forms of representation) and the verbal.The point of this history is not only the political one of undermining the notion of 'illiterate culture' (or 'merely oral culture'), but also the attempt to see to what extent the conventional history blinds us to the facts and uses of visual communication in so-called literate-cultures. In this book we develop the hypothesis that ina literate culturethe visual means of communication are rational expressions of cultural meanings, amenable to rationalaccounts and analysis.The problem which we face is that literate cultureshave system? atically suppressed means of analysis of the visual forms of representation, so that there is not, at the moment, an established theoretical framework within which visual forms of representation can be discussed. On 1/14/15 8:24 PM, "Andy Blunden" wrote: >Peg, does my remark that writing was invented "for administrative >purposes" stand up? >Andy >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >*Andy Blunden* >http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >Peg Griffin wrote: >> About writing origins, Henry: There's some accessible and reliable info >> through that U of Chicago Oriental Institute museum web-site I >>mentioned. >> You can download the catalog for free - over 200 pages of good essays >>and >> illustrations. >> >>http://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/oi >>mp3 >> 2.pdf >> The first chapter has a good discussion about writing and other early >> graphic representations from art and administrative functions. It has a >> reasonable bibliography. Subsequent specialized chapters also carry >>good >> documentation. It's certainly a good start if you want to follow this >>up. >> >> Peg Griffin, Ph. D. >> Washington, DC 20003 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD >> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 7:18 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >> >> Yes, thank you, Helen >> I have a couple of questions: >> 1)The movie Cave of Forgotten Dreams focuses on cave drawings of >>Southern >> France that date back 32,000 years. Writing may date back only about 5 >> thousand years, but I understand that writing systems begin with >> pictographs, like in the caves of southern France. Is that relevant to >>this >> thread? >> 2) Does oral history count as history? >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> >> I have a question >> >>> On Jan 14, 2015, at 2:30 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: >>> >>> Thanks, Helena! It is lovely. A while ago I had skimmed it but >>> misplaced ways to get to it for deep reading and use of it. >>> Besides just liking this sort of thing, I've had some luck getting >>> teacher ed students to see contemporary cultural and language >>> diversity a little differently when they get a chance to see history >>> they might have missed out on in their prior education. >>> Peg >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 2:06 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Cc: 'Mikhail Munipov' >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >>> >>> And there's this: >>> >>> https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201102/roads.of.arabia.htm >>> >>> This is a gorgeous exhibit, if it comes near you. For the text about >>> writing >>> 2000-1500 BCE, scroll about half way down. The exhibit has stones, set >>> side by side, with different ancient scripts. >>> >>> Helena Worthen >>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>> >>> On Jan 13, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Here's a little side track: There's a web trace of a 2010 >>>> well-curated >>>> >>> museum exhibit on writing from the U of Chicago Oriental Institute. >>> >>>> http://oi.uchicago.edu/museum/special/writing/ >>>> >>>> And here are a few little outtakes: >>>> "four instances and places in human history when writing was >>>> >>> invented from scratch - in Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Mesoamerica - >>> without previous exposure to or knowledge of writing. It appears >>> likely that all other writing systems evolved from the four systems we >>> have in our exhibition." >>> >>>> "the earliest cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia (today's >>>> >>> Iraq), dating to about 3200 BC," >>> >>>> " early Egyptian writing that includes tags and labels from >>>> >>> the tombs of the first kings (about 3320 BC) as well as hieroglyphic >>> writing and other scripts from the Nile Valley." >>> >>>> " Chinese writing, which emerged about 1200 BC, will be >>>> >>> shown on oracle bones" >>> >>>> " Mayan hieroglyphs from the 7th century AD will show how >>>> >>> early Mesoamericans wrote." >>> >>>> " Long believed to have been invented in Phoenicia in about >>>> >>> 1000 BC, the earliest alphabetic texts are now those found in the >>>Sinai. >>> This earliest alphabet was derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs as early >>> as >>> 1800 BC, well over five hundred years earlier than had been known." >>> >>>> There are some lovely little animations about the development of >>>> cuneiform >>>> >>> and one animation about a hieroglyph changing and eventually >>> appropriated for a Greek letter. >>> >>>> I love this little site and fear the day I try to open it and find U >>>> of Chicago has abandoned it. Peg >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >>>> Behalf Of Andy Blunden >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:24 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Cc: Mikhail Munipov >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >>>> >>>> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed >>>> from >>>> >>> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their >>> own history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. >>> >>>> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky >>>> had >>>> >>> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is >>> taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian >>> expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and >>> development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 >>> BCE I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. >>> The development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the >>>species. >>> >>>> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: >>>> >>>> "This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to >>>> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the >>>> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to >>>> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of >>>> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of >>>> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human >>>> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them >>>> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the >>>> cultural development of others has become degraded. >>>> "/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist >>>> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented >>>> among these primeval peoples, can only be called "relatively >>>> primitive." Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the >>>> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. >>>> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data >>>> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels >>>> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of >>>> different cultures."(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) >>>> >>>> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" >>>> as >>>> >>> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates >>> focuses on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the >>> implication that the cultural development around the emergence of >>> labour, i.e., the production of tools, was part of evolutionary >>> development, prior and leading up to the formation of homo sapiens >>> sapiens. There is no chapter covering the period between 2 million >>> years ago and say `00,000 years ago, where cultural and biological >>> >> formation are interacting. >> >>>> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges >>>> >>> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a >>> tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and >>> tool-using activity together. >>> >>>> Andy >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> - >>>> -- >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >>>>> THANKS for the appropriate links! >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >>>>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >>>>> >>>>> >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/ind >>> ex.htm >>> >>>>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >>>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >>>>> >>>>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >>>>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >>>>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >>>>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >>>>> a species. Then he says: >>>>> >>>>> "With men we enter /history/." >>>>> >>>>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >>>>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >>>>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >>>>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >>>>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >>>>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >>>>> between evolution of the species and historical development of >>>>> culture. >>>>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >>>>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >>>>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >>>>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >>>>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear Colleagues-- >>>>> >>>>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >>>>> attributed to Engels, >>>>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >>>>> replaced by >>>>> the laws of history." >>>>> >>>>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >>>>> "quotation" or as >>>>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jan 14 20:56:43 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 04:56:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com>, <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> Message-ID: <1421297802515.49898@unm.edu> Hi Peg, This U Chicago catalog is really nice! I noticed that there was no mention of Linear B. But perhaps that is because Crete is not considered "Oriental." :) A fantastic book on Linear B (if anyone named Henry is interested) is The Riddle of the Labryinth: The quest to crack an ancient code by Margalit Fox, about how they decoded the writing in the 1950s (or thereabouts?) The book is a special tribute to Alice Kober who did most of the heavy lifting, but was not given proper credit (until this book of course!) It's wonderfully written and reads almost like a detective novel. A nice break from dense reading... if you need a break. For those not familiar with Linear B it is a syllabic script. I noticed that Margalit Fox also wrote a book called, "Talking Hands: What sign language reveals about the mind." And yes, Andy, Linear B would supply you evidence about administrative purposes! :) Kind regards, Annalisa From vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp Wed Jan 14 20:59:04 2015 From: vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp (Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 13:59:04 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54B740E5.4070206@mira.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <54B740E5.4070206@mira.net> Message-ID: <54B74918.7030602@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> Oh to jump in with both feet first! I've been following the discussion as best I can in a time of total administrative change, but I read a persuasive discussion, or I heard it very recently about memo taking. Administrative purposes can refer to commercial, how many bales of cotton, barrels of olive oil, how many heifers, or personal administration, like took pills before breakfast, temperature rose, and so on, the fever chart to show to the doctor. But then there is the cache like a library, to save time, because you remember everything, but you have priorities, so you put stuff in a written cache to be available, like putting the acorns in a hole for later use. That could also be seen as administrative. But that means that we are translating into a metaphor taken from a verb which comes from somewhere, but Latin governmental functionaries and servants and attendants loom large. Vandy Wilkinson On 2015/01/15 13:24, Andy Blunden wrote: > Peg, does my remark that writing was invented "for administrative > purposes" stand up? > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Peg Griffin wrote: >> About writing origins, Henry: There's some accessible and reliable info >> through that U of Chicago Oriental Institute museum web-site I mentioned. >> You can download the catalog for free - over 200 pages of good essays and >> illustrations. >> http://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/oimp3 >> >> 2.pdf The first chapter has a good discussion about writing and other >> early >> graphic representations from art and administrative functions. It has a >> reasonable bibliography. Subsequent specialized chapters also carry good >> documentation. It's certainly a good start if you want to follow this >> up. >> >> Peg Griffin, Ph. D. >> Washington, DC 20003 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD >> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 7:18 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >> >> Yes, thank you, Helen >> I have a couple of questions: >> 1)The movie Cave of Forgotten Dreams focuses on cave drawings of Southern >> France that date back 32,000 years. Writing may date back only about 5 >> thousand years, but I understand that writing systems begin with >> pictographs, like in the caves of southern France. Is that relevant to >> this >> thread? >> 2) Does oral history count as history? >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> >> I have a question >>> On Jan 14, 2015, at 2:30 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: >>> >>> Thanks, Helena! It is lovely. A while ago I had skimmed it but >>> misplaced ways to get to it for deep reading and use of it. >>> Besides just liking this sort of thing, I've had some luck getting >>> teacher ed students to see contemporary cultural and language >>> diversity a little differently when they get a chance to see history >>> they might have missed out on in their prior education. >>> Peg >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 2:06 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Cc: 'Mikhail Munipov' >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >>> >>> And there's this: >>> >>> https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201102/roads.of.arabia.htm >>> >>> This is a gorgeous exhibit, if it comes near you. For the text about >>> writing >>> 2000-1500 BCE, scroll about half way down. The exhibit has stones, >>> set side by side, with different ancient scripts. >>> >>> Helena Worthen >>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>> >>> On Jan 13, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: >>> >>>> Here's a little side track: There's a web trace of a 2010 well-curated >>> museum exhibit on writing from the U of Chicago Oriental Institute. >>>> http://oi.uchicago.edu/museum/special/writing/ >>>> >>>> And here are a few little outtakes: >>>> "four instances and places in human history when writing was >>> invented from scratch - in Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Mesoamerica >>> - without previous exposure to or knowledge of writing. It appears >>> likely that all other writing systems evolved from the four systems >>> we have in our exhibition." >>>> "the earliest cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia (today's >>> Iraq), dating to about 3200 BC," >>>> " early Egyptian writing that includes tags and labels from >>> the tombs of the first kings (about 3320 BC) as well as hieroglyphic >>> writing and other scripts from the Nile Valley." >>>> " Chinese writing, which emerged about 1200 BC, will be >>> shown on oracle bones" >>>> " Mayan hieroglyphs from the 7th century AD will show how >>> early Mesoamericans wrote." >>>> " Long believed to have been invented in Phoenicia in about >>> 1000 BC, the earliest alphabetic texts are now those found in the Sinai. >>> This earliest alphabet was derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs as early as >>> 1800 BC, well over five hundred years earlier than had been known." >>>> There are some lovely little animations about the development of >>>> cuneiform >>> and one animation about a hieroglyph changing and eventually >>> appropriated for a Greek letter. >>>> I love this little site and fear the day I try to open it and find U >>>> of Chicago has abandoned it. Peg >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >>>> Behalf Of Andy Blunden >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:24 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Cc: Mikhail Munipov >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >>>> >>>> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed from >>> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their >>> own history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. >>>> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky had >>> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is >>> taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central >>> Asian expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins >>> and development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. >>> 2,000 BCE I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes >>> ago. The development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of >>> the species. >>>> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: >>>> >>>> "This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to >>>> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the >>>> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to >>>> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of >>>> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of >>>> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human >>>> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them >>>> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the >>>> cultural development of others has become degraded. >>>> "/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist >>>> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented >>>> among these primeval peoples, can only be called "relatively >>>> primitive." Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the >>>> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. >>>> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data >>>> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels >>>> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of >>>> different cultures."(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) >>>> >>>> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" as >>> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates >>> focuses on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the >>> implication that the cultural development around the emergence of >>> labour, i.e., the production of tools, was part of evolutionary >>> development, prior and leading up to the formation of homo sapiens >>> sapiens. There is no chapter covering the period between 2 million >>> years ago and say `00,000 years ago, where cultural and biological >> formation are interacting. >>>> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges >>> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a >>> tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and >>> tool-using activity together. >>>> Andy >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> - >>>> -- >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >>>>> THANKS for the appropriate links! >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >>>>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >>>>> >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/ind >>> ex.htm >>>>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >>>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >>>>> >>>>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >>>>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >>>>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >>>>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >>>>> a species. Then he says: >>>>> >>>>> "With men we enter /history/." >>>>> >>>>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >>>>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >>>>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >>>>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >>>>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >>>>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >>>>> between evolution of the species and historical development of >>>>> culture. >>>>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >>>>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >>>>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >>>>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >>>>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear Colleagues-- >>>>> >>>>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >>>>> attributed to Engels, >>>>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >>>>> replaced by >>>>> the laws of history." >>>>> >>>>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >>>>> "quotation" or as >>>>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as >>>>> an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>> >>>>> >> >> >> >> > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jan 14 21:07:59 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 05:07:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54B74918.7030602@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <54B740E5.4070206@mira.net>,<54B74918.7030602@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: <1421298478125.77443@unm.edu> VW, I am swimming in pictures here. Or should I say ideograms? :) Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Jan 14 21:27:26 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 21:27:26 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> Message-ID: Thanks David -- That is certainly where I must have encountered the phrase often enough for it to stick in my mind. And thanks to Jessica and Andy we see versions of the idea in many places. Double the pleasure. mike On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:36 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Mike-- > > See Vol. Four of the Collected Works in English: the quote you refer to is > the epigraph to HDHMF. It's from Dialectics of Nature, and Vygotsky keeps > coming back to it again and again, throughout the whole text of HDHMF, > which is one reason why I am assuming (against what Anton Yasnitsky has > written) that HDHMF is a whole book, one of the very few that Vygotsky > completedly completed (and also his longest work). > > We had to gloss this epigraph as part of our translation. I assumed that > what Engels is saying is that man's knowledge of nature, viewed from the > point of view of nature, is nature's knowledge of itself. But of course > man's knowledge of nature is historical; we know nature through human > experience and human experience is historical. So, for example, the idea > that water boils at exactly 100 degrees centrigrade is entirely dependent > on the human ideas like "degree", "centigrade", the decimal number system, > and the tendency of human beings to settle near sea level. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 14 January 2015 at 13:38, mike cole wrote: > > > yes, highly coordinated join activity that satisfies the participants > does > > tend to do that. An academic flow creating device. But you should be > > careful of the not transcending biology part. :-) > > mike > > > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 8:04 PM, Kindred, Jessica Dr. > > wrote: > > > > > The dopamine rush of solving a problem together is not so much > > > transcending biology as just kind of living up to it. That was fun. > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > ] > > > on behalf of mike cole [mcole@ucsd.edu] > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 10:53 PM > > > To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > > > > > Bingo! I was not hallucinating! > > > Thanks a lot Jesica and Andy- I was just thumbing through my hardcopy > and > > > stopped to send an email. > > > > > > Do we interpret this as a belief that humans have transcended > biological > > > evolution? Its in our capable hands now that we are no longer just > apes. > > > > > > Brrrrrr. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 7:41 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > > > > > Jessica refers to: > > > > > > > > "Indeed, the struggle for existence and natural selection, the two > > > > driving forces of biological evolution within the animal world, > lose > > > > their decisive importance as soon as we pass on to the historical > > > > development of man. New laws, which regulate the course of human > > > > history and which cover the entire process of the material and > > > > mental development of human society, now take their place." > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > PS, I am not the translator, Jessica, just the transcriber. Ren? van > > der > > > > Veer and Jaan Valsiner did all the work, and I just scanned it to > HTML. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Kindred, Jessica Dr. wrote: > > > > > > > >> Mike, your paraphrased is very clearly ststed in Vygotsky's essay, > The > > > >> Socialist Alteration of Man, especially in the second through fifth > > > >> paragraphs. I think this may be the source of the phrase you are > > looking > > > >> for, though clearly Vygotsky is riffing on Engels. > > > >> ________________________________________ > > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >> [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of > Andy > > > >> Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:23 PM > > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >> Cc: Mikhail Munipov > > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > > >> > > > >> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed > from > > > >> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their > > own > > > >> history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. > > > >> > > > >> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky > had > > > >> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is > > > >> taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central > Asian > > > >> expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and > > > >> development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 > > BCE > > > >> I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. The > > > >> development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the > species. > > > >> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: > > > >> > > > >> ?This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, > > to > > > >> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at > > the > > > >> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right > to > > > >> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of > > > >> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All > of > > > >> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human > > > >> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of > them > > > >> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the > > > >> cultural development of others has become degraded. > > > >> ?/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist > > > >> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as > represented > > > >> among these primeval peoples, can only be called ?relatively > > > >> primitive.? Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and > the > > > >> starting point for the historical development of human > behaviour. > > > >> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data > > > >> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower > > levels > > > >> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of > peoples > > of > > > >> different cultures.?(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) > > > >> > > > >> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" > > as > > > >> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates > > focuses > > > >> on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the implication > > that > > > >> the cultural development around the emergence of labour, i.e., the > > > >> production of tools, was part of evolutionary development, prior and > > > >> leading up to the formation of homo sapiens sapiens. There is no > > chapter > > > >> covering the period between 2 million years ago and say `00,000 > years > > > >> ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. > > > >> > > > >> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges > > > >> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not > a > > > >> tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic > and > > > >> tool-using activity together. > > > >> > > > >> Andy > > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >> *Andy Blunden* > > > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> mike cole wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. > > > >>> THANKS for the appropriate links! > > > >>> mike > > > >>> > > > >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden > > >>> > wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part > Played > > > >>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) > > > >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part- > > > >>> played-labour/index.htm > > > >>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) > > > >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm > > > >>> > > > >>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by > > > >>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning > labour, > > > >>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry > > > >>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings > > as > > > >>> a species. Then he says: > > > >>> > > > >>> "With men we enter /history/." > > > >>> > > > >>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the > making > > > >>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of > > > >>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than > > > >>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he > > narrates > > > >>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist > > revolution > > > >>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the > distinction > > > >>> between evolution of the species and historical development of > > > >>> culture. > > > >>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human > beings > > > >>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, > > the > > > >>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower > > > >>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this > could > > > >>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. > > > >>> > > > >>> Andy > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >>> ------------ > > > >>> *Andy Blunden* > > > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> mike cole wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> Dear Colleagues-- > > > >>> > > > >>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being > > > >>> attributed to Engels, > > > >>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are > > being > > > >>> replaced by > > > >>> the laws of history." > > > >>> > > > >>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this > > > >>> "quotation" or as > > > >>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? > > > >>> > > > >>> mike > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> -- > > > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as > an > > > >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Jan 14 21:56:53 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 22:56:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18F83C8A-A87A-4722-8D5C-2DF72E40DC67@gmail.com> Miguel, The ?discovery? of alphabetic writing: pictographs?>ideographs?>logographs?(via rebus)?>syllabic?>alphabetic in the the Levant is one I am familiar with. Also, the narrative of the marginalization/oppression of non-literate indiigenous cultures is familiar. There is a popular book that deals with this: The Alphabet Versus the Goddess: The Conflict Between Word and Image, by Leonard Shlain, Viking, 1998. However, there are a few examples, I beiieve, of non-alphabetic writing systems that are part of ?civilization?: `1) the logographic writing system of China, which allows speakers of Mandarin and Cantonese, mutually unintelligible in spoken form, to understand a single written system and 2) mathematical notation. Interestingly, Japanese has adopted the Chinese writing system and added a method, called Katakana, of representing the sounds of foreign borrowed words. In other words, they have a blended logographic/alphabetic writing system. I am wondering if this discussion sheds light on the status of signed languages and indigenous languages, described as primitive and not real languages in the past. With devastating results for those signers and speakers and missed opportunities for the ?mainstream?. Henry > On Jan 14, 2015 , at 9:41 PM, Zavala, Miguel wrote: > > The following is worth reading in light of the discussion. Origin > his/her-stories are often imbued with meta-narratives; we have concepts > (and science too) to guide is into the distant past, which is also present > in everyday life. Please excuse the text, I had to export from a PDF image. > > -Miguel Zavala > > > ---------------------------------------- > > > AN UNCONVENTIONAL HISTORY OF WRITING > > > SOURCE: Gunther Kress & Theo Van Leeuwen,"Chapter 1.The Semiotic > Landscape: Language and Visual Communication." > > > The dominance of the verbal, written medium over other visual media is > firmly codedand buttressed in conventional histories of writing. These go > something like this. Languagein its spoken form is a natural phenomenon, > common to all human groups. Writing, however, is the achievement of only > some (historically,by far the minority of) cultures. At a particu?lar > stage in the historyof certain cultures,there developed the need to make > recordsof transactions of various kinds, associated usually with trade, > religionor (governing) power. These records were initially highly > iconic; that is, the relation between the object to be recorded and the > forms and means of recording was close and transparent. For instance, the > number of notches in a stick would representthe number of objects stored > or traded or owed. The > Representation of the object would usually also be transparent: a wavy > line eventually became the Chinese ideogram for 'water';the > hieroglyphic image of the ox's head which initially 'stood for' 'ox' > eventually became the letter aleph (),alpha (a), a. This example > illustrates what in these histories is regarded as the rarest of all > achievements, the invention of alphabetic writing. > > > Alphabetic writing developed,it seems clear, out of iconic, image-based > scripts. In these originalscript forms, an object was initially > represented by an image of that object. Over time, in the use of the > script by different groups,speaking different languages, the image of the > object came to stand for the name of the object and then for its > initialletter.Aleph, 'ox' in Egyptian hieroglyphics, after centuries of > travel and constant transformation through the culturesand languages of > the easternMediterranean, became the letter alpha, and eventually the > letter a in the Roman alphabet. Clearly this was a process where each step > involved considerable abstraction, so much so that, seemingly, alphabetic > writing has been inventedonly once in the historyof human cultures.All > present alphabetic scripts, from > India to the MiddleEast to Europe, are developments of that initial step > from Egyptian (or possibly Sumerian) iconic hieroglyphic representation > to the Phoenician alphabet, and from there westward to the Greek-speaking > world, and eastwardto the Indian subcontinent, or, in the region of its > origin, developing into the Arabic version of the alphabet. > > This is indeed an impressive cultural history, impressive enough to have > stood as the acceptedhistorical account of the achievement of (alphabetic) > writing,unquestioned for centuries.Within this account, all cultureswith > forms of visual representation that are not directly connected to language > are treated as cultures withoutwriting. However, it isworth investigating > this history, and in particular the crucial step from visual > representation to the link with language,a little more closely.Prior to > this step (in reality a development spanning millennia) there were two > separate and independent modes of representation. One was > language-as-speech; the other, the visualimage, or visual marks. Each > served a par? ticularset of purposes such as the construction of histories > and myths, the recording of genealogies and transactions, and the > recordingand measurement of objects. In the case of some cultures,however, > the one form of representation 'tookover' the other, as a means of > recording; that is, visualrepresentation became specialized - one could > say,reduced- to function as a means of the visual representation of > speech,perhaps in highly organized and bureaucratized societies. At this > point the visual was subsumed,taken over, by the verbalas its means of > recording. Consequently its former public uses, possibilities and > potentials for independent representation disappeared, declined and > withered away. > > In the case of other cultures,however, this development did not occur. > Here the visual continued, along with the verbal means of representation. > Instances of this abound:from the one extreme of the Inca quipu strings > (sensorily the tactile mode of representation) to Australian Aboriginal > drawings, sand-paintings and carvings. These encode, in a manner not at > all directly dependent on, or a 'translation' of, verbal language, > meanings of the culture which are deemed to be best represented in visual > form. They are connected with language, or language with them, so that > wall-paintings or sand-paintings, for instance, are accompanied by verbal > recounts of geographical features, journeys, ancestor myths,and so on. > However, in these cases there is no question of the priority of the one > over the other mode, and the visual has certainly not become subsumedto > the verbal as its form of representation. > > In this connection it is interesting to consider the history of two > wordswhich in a sense are synonymous with Western notions of literacy,the > words grammar and syntax. Gram? mar derives from the Greek grammatike > ('the art of reading and writing','grammar','alphabet'); related words > were gramma ('sign','letter','alphabet'), grammatikos ('liter? > ate','(primary) teacher','grammarian'). This etymology records the state > of thingsin the Hellenistic period (from approximately 300sc); in > earliertimes the meaning'sign',as in 'painted or drawn [etc.]mark' was the > primary meaning.In Homer,for example, the verb graphein still means > 'scratch','scratch in', as in engraving, and from there it comes to mean > both 'writing' and 'drawing','painting'. Syntaxis, in pre-Hellenistic > times, meant 'contract', 'wage','organization','system','battle > formation',with syntagma, for instance, 'contingent of > troops','constitution (of a state)','book or treatise'. Only in the > Hellenistic period does syntaxis come to mean (among its othermeanings) > 'grammatical construc? tion'. The verb syntasso, again, means both > 'arrange battleformations' and 'concentrate Cone's > thoughts)','organize','write','compose'. > > While we do not wish to place too much emphasis on etymology,nevertheless > the history of these two words which are so crucial to our notions of > literacy points to forms of social organization and order, on the one > hand, and to visual 'markings' on the other. Together they indicate the > initially quite independent organization of the mode of images and the > mode of verbal language. At the same time, the subsequent history of the > word grammar brings out clearly the subordination of the visual medium to > the medium of verbal lan? guage. Cultures which still retain the full use > of both media of representation are, from the point of view of 'literate > cultures', regarded as illiterate, impoverished, underdeveloped, when in > fact they have a richer array of means of representation than that overtly > and consciously available to literate cultures.Nevertheless, as we pointed > out earlier, literatecultures do make use of means of visual communication > other than writing, be it that they are seen as uncoded replicas of > reality or as a means of individual expression by children or artists.In > other words, they are not treated as either the expressions of, or > accessible to means of reading based on, articulated, rational and social > meanings. > > Our unconventional history of writingis one that treats the coming > together of visual and verbal representation as only one possibility, and > one, furthermore, that brings with it not just those benefits of writing > which are well enough understood, but also the negative aspects incurred > in the loss of an independent form of representation, the diminution of > modes of expression and representation. From that point of view cultures > such as Austral?ian Aboriginal cultures are seen as having both modes of > representation: the visual (or perhaps a whole set of visual forms of > representation) and the verbal.The point of this history is not only the > political one of undermining the notion of 'illiterate culture' (or > 'merely oral culture'), but also the attempt to see to what extent the > conventional history blinds us to the facts and uses of visual > communication in so-called literate-cultures. > > In this book we develop the hypothesis that ina literate culturethe visual > means of communication are rational expressions of cultural meanings, > amenable to rationalaccounts and analysis.The problem which we face is > that literate cultureshave system? atically suppressed means of analysis > of the visual forms of representation, so that there is not, at the > moment, an established theoretical framework within which visual forms of > representation can be discussed. > > > > > On 1/14/15 8:24 PM, "Andy Blunden" wrote: > >> Peg, does my remark that writing was invented "for administrative >> purposes" stand up? >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> Peg Griffin wrote: >>> About writing origins, Henry: There's some accessible and reliable info >>> through that U of Chicago Oriental Institute museum web-site I >>> mentioned. >>> You can download the catalog for free - over 200 pages of good essays >>> and >>> illustrations. >>> >>> http://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/oi >>> mp3 >>> 2.pdf >>> The first chapter has a good discussion about writing and other early >>> graphic representations from art and administrative functions. It has a >>> reasonable bibliography. Subsequent specialized chapters also carry >>> good >>> documentation. It's certainly a good start if you want to follow this >>> up. >>> >>> Peg Griffin, Ph. D. >>> Washington, DC 20003 >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 7:18 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >>> >>> Yes, thank you, Helen >>> I have a couple of questions: >>> 1)The movie Cave of Forgotten Dreams focuses on cave drawings of >>> Southern >>> France that date back 32,000 years. Writing may date back only about 5 >>> thousand years, but I understand that writing systems begin with >>> pictographs, like in the caves of southern France. Is that relevant to >>> this >>> thread? >>> 2) Does oral history count as history? >>> Henry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I have a question >>> >>>> On Jan 14, 2015, at 2:30 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks, Helena! It is lovely. A while ago I had skimmed it but >>>> misplaced ways to get to it for deep reading and use of it. >>>> Besides just liking this sort of thing, I've had some luck getting >>>> teacher ed students to see contemporary cultural and language >>>> diversity a little differently when they get a chance to see history >>>> they might have missed out on in their prior education. >>>> Peg >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen >>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 2:06 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Cc: 'Mikhail Munipov' >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >>>> >>>> And there's this: >>>> >>>> https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201102/roads.of.arabia.htm >>>> >>>> This is a gorgeous exhibit, if it comes near you. For the text about >>>> writing >>>> 2000-1500 BCE, scroll about half way down. The exhibit has stones, set >>>> side by side, with different ancient scripts. >>>> >>>> Helena Worthen >>>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>>> >>>> On Jan 13, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Here's a little side track: There's a web trace of a 2010 >>>>> well-curated >>>>> >>>> museum exhibit on writing from the U of Chicago Oriental Institute. >>>> >>>>> http://oi.uchicago.edu/museum/special/writing/ >>>>> >>>>> And here are a few little outtakes: >>>>> "four instances and places in human history when writing was >>>>> >>>> invented from scratch - in Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Mesoamerica - >>>> without previous exposure to or knowledge of writing. It appears >>>> likely that all other writing systems evolved from the four systems we >>>> have in our exhibition." >>>> >>>>> "the earliest cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia (today's >>>>> >>>> Iraq), dating to about 3200 BC," >>>> >>>>> " early Egyptian writing that includes tags and labels from >>>>> >>>> the tombs of the first kings (about 3320 BC) as well as hieroglyphic >>>> writing and other scripts from the Nile Valley." >>>> >>>>> " Chinese writing, which emerged about 1200 BC, will be >>>>> >>>> shown on oracle bones" >>>> >>>>> " Mayan hieroglyphs from the 7th century AD will show how >>>>> >>>> early Mesoamericans wrote." >>>> >>>>> " Long believed to have been invented in Phoenicia in about >>>>> >>>> 1000 BC, the earliest alphabetic texts are now those found in the >>>> Sinai. >>>> This earliest alphabet was derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs as early >>>> as >>>> 1800 BC, well over five hundred years earlier than had been known." >>>> >>>>> There are some lovely little animations about the development of >>>>> cuneiform >>>>> >>>> and one animation about a hieroglyph changing and eventually >>>> appropriated for a Greek letter. >>>> >>>>> I love this little site and fear the day I try to open it and find U >>>>> of Chicago has abandoned it. Peg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >>>>> Behalf Of Andy Blunden >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:24 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Cc: Mikhail Munipov >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >>>>> >>>>> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed >>>>> from >>>>> >>>> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their >>>> own history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. >>>> >>>>> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky >>>>> had >>>>> >>>> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is >>>> taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian >>>> expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and >>>> development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 >>>> BCE I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. >>>> The development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the >>>> species. >>>> >>>>> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: >>>>> >>>>> "This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to >>>>> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the >>>>> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to >>>>> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of >>>>> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of >>>>> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human >>>>> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them >>>>> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the >>>>> cultural development of others has become degraded. >>>>> "/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist >>>>> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented >>>>> among these primeval peoples, can only be called "relatively >>>>> primitive." Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the >>>>> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. >>>>> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data >>>>> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels >>>>> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of >>>>> different cultures."(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) >>>>> >>>>> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" >>>>> as >>>>> >>>> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates >>>> focuses on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the >>>> implication that the cultural development around the emergence of >>>> labour, i.e., the production of tools, was part of evolutionary >>>> development, prior and leading up to the formation of homo sapiens >>>> sapiens. There is no chapter covering the period between 2 million >>>> years ago and say `00,000 years ago, where cultural and biological >>>> >>> formation are interacting. >>> >>>>> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges >>>>> >>>> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a >>>> tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and >>>> tool-using activity together. >>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> - >>>>> -- >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >>>>>> THANKS for the appropriate links! >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >>>>>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/ind >>>> ex.htm >>>> >>>>>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >>>>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >>>>>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >>>>>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >>>>>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >>>>>> a species. Then he says: >>>>>> >>>>>> "With men we enter /history/." >>>>>> >>>>>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >>>>>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >>>>>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >>>>>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >>>>>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >>>>>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >>>>>> between evolution of the species and historical development of >>>>>> culture. >>>>>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >>>>>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >>>>>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >>>>>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >>>>>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> -- >>>> >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Colleagues-- >>>>>> >>>>>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >>>>>> attributed to Engels, >>>>>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >>>>>> replaced by >>>>>> the laws of history." >>>>>> >>>>>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >>>>>> "quotation" or as >>>>>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >>>>>> >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Jan 14 22:01:31 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 23:01:31 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <1421297802515.49898@unm.edu> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <, > <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <1421297802515.49898@unm.edu> Message-ID: <343DE6EF-8204-4931-913C-828AB5258940@gmail.com> Annalisa, I?ll bet there are a lot of Henrys interested in Linear B. :) Henry > On Jan 14, 2015, at 9:56 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Peg, > > This U Chicago catalog is really nice! > > I noticed that there was no mention of Linear B. But perhaps that is because Crete is not considered "Oriental." :) > > A fantastic book on Linear B (if anyone named Henry is interested) is The Riddle of the Labryinth: The quest to crack an ancient code by Margalit Fox, about how they decoded the writing in the 1950s (or thereabouts?) > > The book is a special tribute to Alice Kober who did most of the heavy lifting, but was not given proper credit (until this book of course!) It's wonderfully written and reads almost like a detective novel. A nice break from dense reading... if you need a break. > > For those not familiar with Linear B it is a syllabic script. > > I noticed that Margalit Fox also wrote a book called, "Talking Hands: What sign language reveals about the mind." > > And yes, Andy, Linear B would supply you evidence about administrative purposes! :) > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From Peg.Griffin@att.net Wed Jan 14 22:14:07 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 01:14:07 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54B740E5.4070206@mira.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <54B740E5.4070206@mira.net> Message-ID: <000001d0308a$791d2e40$6b578ac0$@att.net> It looks like the "administrative purposes" claim holds pretty well for the writing systems developed in Mesopotamia and in Egypt, Andy, but the claim doesn't hold so much for the writing systems developed in China and in Mesoamerica (look at pp. 17-18 in the catalog and the citations there). Peg Peg Griffin, Ph. D. Washington, DC 20003 -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 11:24 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history Peg, does my remark that writing was invented "for administrative purposes" stand up? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Peg Griffin wrote: > About writing origins, Henry: There's some accessible and reliable info > through that U of Chicago Oriental Institute museum web-site I mentioned. > You can download the catalog for free - over 200 pages of good essays and > illustrations. > http://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/oimp3 > 2.pdf > The first chapter has a good discussion about writing and other early > graphic representations from art and administrative functions. It has a > reasonable bibliography. Subsequent specialized chapters also carry good > documentation. It's certainly a good start if you want to follow this up. > > Peg Griffin, Ph. D. > Washington, DC 20003 > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 7:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Yes, thank you, Helen > I have a couple of questions: > 1)The movie Cave of Forgotten Dreams focuses on cave drawings of Southern > France that date back 32,000 years. Writing may date back only about 5 > thousand years, but I understand that writing systems begin with > pictographs, like in the caves of southern France. Is that relevant to this > thread? > 2) Does oral history count as history? > Henry > > > > > > I have a question > >> On Jan 14, 2015, at 2:30 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: >> >> Thanks, Helena! It is lovely. A while ago I had skimmed it but >> misplaced ways to get to it for deep reading and use of it. >> Besides just liking this sort of thing, I've had some luck getting >> teacher ed students to see contemporary cultural and language >> diversity a little differently when they get a chance to see history >> they might have missed out on in their prior education. >> Peg >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen >> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 2:06 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: 'Mikhail Munipov' >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >> >> And there's this: >> >> https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201102/roads.of.arabia.htm >> >> This is a gorgeous exhibit, if it comes near you. For the text about >> writing >> 2000-1500 BCE, scroll about half way down. The exhibit has stones, set >> side by side, with different ancient scripts. >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> >> On Jan 13, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: >> >> >>> Here's a little side track: There's a web trace of a 2010 >>> well-curated >>> >> museum exhibit on writing from the U of Chicago Oriental Institute. >> >>> http://oi.uchicago.edu/museum/special/writing/ >>> >>> And here are a few little outtakes: >>> "four instances and places in human history when writing was >>> >> invented from scratch - in Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Mesoamerica - >> without previous exposure to or knowledge of writing. It appears >> likely that all other writing systems evolved from the four systems we >> have in our exhibition." >> >>> "the earliest cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia (today's >>> >> Iraq), dating to about 3200 BC," >> >>> " early Egyptian writing that includes tags and labels from >>> >> the tombs of the first kings (about 3320 BC) as well as hieroglyphic >> writing and other scripts from the Nile Valley." >> >>> " Chinese writing, which emerged about 1200 BC, will be >>> >> shown on oracle bones" >> >>> " Mayan hieroglyphs from the 7th century AD will show how >>> >> early Mesoamericans wrote." >> >>> " Long believed to have been invented in Phoenicia in about >>> >> 1000 BC, the earliest alphabetic texts are now those found in the Sinai. >> This earliest alphabet was derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs as early >> as >> 1800 BC, well over five hundred years earlier than had been known." >> >>> There are some lovely little animations about the development of >>> cuneiform >>> >> and one animation about a hieroglyph changing and eventually >> appropriated for a Greek letter. >> >>> I love this little site and fear the day I try to open it and find U >>> of Chicago has abandoned it. Peg >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >>> Behalf Of Andy Blunden >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:24 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Cc: Mikhail Munipov >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >>> >>> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed >>> from >>> >> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their >> own history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. >> >>> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky >>> had >>> >> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is >> taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian >> expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and >> development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 >> BCE I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. >> The development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. >> >>> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: >>> >>> "This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to >>> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the >>> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to >>> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of >>> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of >>> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human >>> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them >>> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the >>> cultural development of others has become degraded. >>> "/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist >>> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented >>> among these primeval peoples, can only be called "relatively >>> primitive." Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the >>> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. >>> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data >>> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels >>> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of >>> different cultures."(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) >>> >>> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" >>> as >>> >> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates >> focuses on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the >> implication that the cultural development around the emergence of >> labour, i.e., the production of tools, was part of evolutionary >> development, prior and leading up to the formation of homo sapiens >> sapiens. There is no chapter covering the period between 2 million >> years ago and say `00,000 years ago, where cultural and biological >> > formation are interacting. > >>> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges >>> >> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a >> tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and >> tool-using activity together. >> >>> Andy >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> -- >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >>>> THANKS for the appropriate links! >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >>>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >>>> >>>> >> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/ind >> ex.htm >> >>>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >>>> >>>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >>>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >>>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >>>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >>>> a species. Then he says: >>>> >>>> "With men we enter /history/." >>>> >>>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >>>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >>>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >>>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >>>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >>>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >>>> between evolution of the species and historical development of >>>> culture. >>>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >>>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >>>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >>>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >>>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Colleagues-- >>>> >>>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >>>> attributed to Engels, >>>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >>>> replaced by >>>> the laws of history." >>>> >>>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >>>> "quotation" or as >>>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> > > > > > From Peg.Griffin@att.net Wed Jan 14 22:28:58 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 01:28:58 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <1421297802515.49898@unm.edu> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com>, <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <1421297802515.49898@unm.edu> Message-ID: <000101d0308c$8c308890$a49199b0$@att.net> The Linear B story is interesting, Annalisa. Apparently the Linear B writing system's architecture was in Crete in those Linear A tablets before the Greeks came. They re-purposed the writing system for their Mycenaean dialect. So it doesn't show up as one of the four de nouveau writing systems in the Chicago museum exhibit. Peg Griffin, Ph. D. Washington, DC 20003 -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 11:57 PM To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history Hi Peg, This U Chicago catalog is really nice! I noticed that there was no mention of Linear B. But perhaps that is because Crete is not considered "Oriental." :) A fantastic book on Linear B (if anyone named Henry is interested) is The Riddle of the Labryinth: The quest to crack an ancient code by Margalit Fox, about how they decoded the writing in the 1950s (or thereabouts?) The book is a special tribute to Alice Kober who did most of the heavy lifting, but was not given proper credit (until this book of course!) It's wonderfully written and reads almost like a detective novel. A nice break from dense reading... if you need a break. For those not familiar with Linear B it is a syllabic script. I noticed that Margalit Fox also wrote a book called, "Talking Hands: What sign language reveals about the mind." And yes, Andy, Linear B would supply you evidence about administrative purposes! :) Kind regards, Annalisa From smago@uga.edu Thu Jan 15 03:32:01 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 11:32:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> Message-ID: I've written about the Oriental Institute exhibition and web-text as follows (Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Vygotsky and literacy research: A methodological framework. Boston: Sense.): Writing as Tool and Sign People have been communicating through symbol systems for quite a long time. The abilities to speak and use language (distinctions made by anthropologists to refer separately to the ability to form sounds audibly and the development of a systematic organization of sounds and symbols into a patterned scheme of communication) have characterized both humans and their antecedent primates since early in their evolutionary development (Fitch, 2000) as a way to produce auditory symbols that represent objects, ideas, actions, and other nonlinguistic referents. Researchers dispute the point at which humans began using language, with estimates ranging from 10,000-100,000 years ago, depending on the evidence consulted (e.g., Atkinson, 2011; Gray & Atkinson, 2003). The first written symbol system was numeric and preceded linguistic symbol systems by about four millennia. In about 7500 BCE, members of the early Meso-potamian society began impressing numeric symbols in clay to represent their so-cial and commercial transactions (Schmandt-Besserat, 2011). Before the appear-ance of the cuneiform and hieroglyphic linguistic texts that first appeared between 3500 and 3200 BCE, Mesopotamian and Egyptian people used primitive stamp and cylinder seals, i.e., round stones that people used to make impressions in clay. Each seal was specific to an individual or social group to "brand" their belongings as distinctively their property; the seal thus marked an object as residing within a particular individual or group's archival record. Mesopotamians also used clay "envelopes" prior to the emergence of a formal script. These devices consisted of hollow balls with small tokens sealed inside that served a contractual role, provid-ing a form of record-keeping that led to the recording of numbers on clay, which itself was the immediate precursor for their cuneiform script (Woods, 2010a). Subsequently, all known writing systems originated from four independently developed scripts, a relatively new finding that revises previous theories that saw writing originating in the Eastern Mediterranean region and gradually spreading from there (Woods, 2010a). The most recent data regarding writing's origins-a date that is subject to continual revision as archeology produces new sources of evidence-indicate that the Egypt and Mesopotamia were indeed the first societies to develop writing systems, each created separately and without one another's influence. Independent of these developments, and toward different cultural ends using unique symbol systems, Chinese (1200 BCE) and Mesoamerican (1200-600 BCE) systems followed to produce the prototypes for the remainder of the world to follow. Unlike today's writing, the Mesopotamian pictographic text, like all early forms of writing, was used exclusively to maintain economic records of transactions among those of high status. The curators of the exhibition at the University of Chicago's Oriental Institute that documents this historical record (detailed in Woods, 2010a) report that about 90% of texts recovered from Mesopotamia were administrative documents that became necessary during a population expansion in Uruk in about 3500 BCE. This growth produced a more complex social and trading civilization that required a bureaucracy for its organization of goods and how they were distributed across the stratified society's inhabitants. Determining what counted as writing and what served as a precursor requires some key distinctions. The contributors to Woods' (2010a) edited volume define writing as a one-to-one correspondence between text and speech. When Egyptian hieroglyphics were invented, the creators used the rebus principle-in the English alphabet, for example, drawing an eye shape to signify the I sound-as well as pictograms to represent specific objects. . . . The Egyptians eventually moved to full representation, "sound by sound and word by word," so that when one person reads a text, it sounds the same as when another reads it. Ancient cave paintings, by contrast, do not count as writing-different people viewing a cave painting may use different words to tell its story. (Kott, 2011, n. p.) Kott (2011) further reports that to Woods (2010b), the written scripts' use of characters and grammar represents the boundary between prehistory and history because it enabled people to document the present and past and thus provide a record of the evolution of their society. Serving this historical and contemporary purpose, writing reveals each culture's social organization and cultural thrust: its teleological ends and the primary tool, a written script, through which its commerce is archived and thus used as the template for new transactions. The field of comparative human cognition (Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition, 1978) emphasizes the manner in which tool-mediated thinking serves and in turn helps to reproduce a culture's goals and practices and channel them toward its sense of optimal developmental outcome. The use of writing in Indo-European cultures as a bureaucratic means of record-keeping for goods, labor, and production suggests much about this area as the origin of capitalist societies. In contrast, in China and in Mesoamerica, scripts most likely developed for religious purposes: In China, the social component is clearly in evidence as witnessed by the emergent Shang state (ca. 1200 BC[E]), but writing is first attested primarily within the context of divination-for the purpose of recording royal divina-tions performed at the Shang court. Written on turtle shells and ox scapulas, these inscriptions recorded the answers to queries that were put to the gods [see Shaughnessy, 2010]. The Mesoamerican case is even more nebulous. The earliest writing in the Americas-the undeciphered Zapotec and Isthmi-an scripts and the first Maya writing-is essentially commemorative with a considerable theological component, many of the glyphs having a basis in long-established iconographic traditions and a calendrical system of great cultural significance. . . . Further, in the better-understood Maya case, the ad-vent of sociopolitical complexity, as witnessed by monumental architecture and increased social stratification, predates the first texts by several centuries. . . . These are contexts that may suggest religious and cultural motivations for writing, rather than administrative or economic necessities [see Palka, 2010]. (Woods, 2010b, p. 17) If these scripts are indicative of their societies' sense of telos and the use of writing to mediate development toward that end, they reveal profoundly different understandings of the purpose of life on earth and how to live it socially and cul-turally. In this chapter I move to a more modern-day conception of the role of writing in society, emphasizing its tool function and embedding writing practice in broader cultural processes so as to understand its role in current educational prac-tice and in the abundant settings in which writing plays a role outside school. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peg Griffin Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 11:07 PM To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history About writing origins, Henry: There's some accessible and reliable info through that U of Chicago Oriental Institute museum web-site I mentioned. You can download the catalog for free - over 200 pages of good essays and illustrations. http://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/oimp3 2.pdf The first chapter has a good discussion about writing and other early graphic representations from art and administrative functions. It has a reasonable bibliography. Subsequent specialized chapters also carry good documentation. It's certainly a good start if you want to follow this up. Peg Griffin, Ph. D. Washington, DC 20003 -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 7:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history Yes, thank you, Helen I have a couple of questions: 1)The movie Cave of Forgotten Dreams focuses on cave drawings of Southern France that date back 32,000 years. Writing may date back only about 5 thousand years, but I understand that writing systems begin with pictographs, like in the caves of southern France. Is that relevant to this thread? 2) Does oral history count as history? Henry I have a question > On Jan 14, 2015, at 2:30 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: > > Thanks, Helena! It is lovely. A while ago I had skimmed it but > misplaced ways to get to it for deep reading and use of it. > Besides just liking this sort of thing, I've had some luck getting > teacher ed students to see contemporary cultural and language > diversity a little differently when they get a chance to see history > they might have missed out on in their prior education. > Peg > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 2:06 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: 'Mikhail Munipov' > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > And there's this: > > https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201102/roads.of.arabia.htm > > This is a gorgeous exhibit, if it comes near you. For the text about > writing > 2000-1500 BCE, scroll about half way down. The exhibit has stones, set > side by side, with different ancient scripts. > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Jan 13, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: > >> Here's a little side track: There's a web trace of a 2010 >> well-curated > museum exhibit on writing from the U of Chicago Oriental Institute. >> http://oi.uchicago.edu/museum/special/writing/ >> >> And here are a few little outtakes: >> "four instances and places in human history when writing was > invented from scratch - in Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Mesoamerica - > without previous exposure to or knowledge of writing. It appears > likely that all other writing systems evolved from the four systems we > have in our exhibition." >> "the earliest cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia (today's > Iraq), dating to about 3200 BC," >> " early Egyptian writing that includes tags and labels from > the tombs of the first kings (about 3320 BC) as well as hieroglyphic > writing and other scripts from the Nile Valley." >> " Chinese writing, which emerged about 1200 BC, will be > shown on oracle bones" >> " Mayan hieroglyphs from the 7th century AD will show how > early Mesoamericans wrote." >> " Long believed to have been invented in Phoenicia in about > 1000 BC, the earliest alphabetic texts are now those found in the Sinai. > This earliest alphabet was derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs as early > as > 1800 BC, well over five hundred years earlier than had been known." >> There are some lovely little animations about the development of >> cuneiform > and one animation about a hieroglyph changing and eventually > appropriated for a Greek letter. >> >> I love this little site and fear the day I try to open it and find U >> of Chicago has abandoned it. Peg >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >> Behalf Of Andy Blunden >> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:24 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: Mikhail Munipov >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >> >> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed >> from > animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their > own history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. >> >> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky >> had > poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is > taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian > expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and > development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 > BCE I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. > The development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. >> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: >> >> "This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to >> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the >> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to >> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of >> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of >> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human >> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them >> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the >> cultural development of others has become degraded. >> "/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist >> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented >> among these primeval peoples, can only be called "relatively >> primitive." Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the >> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. >> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data >> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels >> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of >> different cultures."(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) >> >> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" >> as > distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates > focuses on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the > implication that the cultural development around the emergence of > labour, i.e., the production of tools, was part of evolutionary > development, prior and leading up to the formation of homo sapiens > sapiens. There is no chapter covering the period between 2 million > years ago and say `00,000 years ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. >> >> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges > simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a > tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and > tool-using activity together. >> >> Andy >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -- >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >>> THANKS for the appropriate links! >>> mike >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >>> >>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >>> > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/ind > ex.htm >>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >>> >>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >>> a species. Then he says: >>> >>> "With men we enter /history/." >>> >>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >>> between evolution of the species and historical development of >>> culture. >>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues-- >>> >>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >>> attributed to Engels, >>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >>> replaced by >>> the laws of history." >>> >>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >>> "quotation" or as >>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> > > From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Thu Jan 15 03:40:59 2015 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (rjsp2) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 11:40:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <000101d0308c$8c308890$a49199b0$@att.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com>, <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <1421297802515.49898@unm.edu> <000101d0308c$8c308890$a49199b0$@att.net> Message-ID: <54B7A74B.4090607@open.ac.uk> This is not entirely on topic, but I can't resist it. There is a close relationship between GDP and an understanding of the theory of evolution ? with one exception. Guess which the exception is. Rob On 15/01/2015 06:28, Peg Griffin wrote: > The Linear B story is interesting, Annalisa. Apparently the Linear B > writing system's architecture was in Crete in those Linear A tablets before > the Greeks came. They re-purposed the writing system for their Mycenaean > dialect. So it doesn't show up as one of the four de nouveau writing > systems in the Chicago museum exhibit. > > Peg Griffin, Ph. D. > Washington, DC 20003 > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 11:57 PM > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Hi Peg, > > This U Chicago catalog is really nice! > > I noticed that there was no mention of Linear B. But perhaps that is because > Crete is not considered "Oriental." :) > > A fantastic book on Linear B (if anyone named Henry is interested) is The > Riddle of the Labryinth: The quest to crack an ancient code by Margalit Fox, > about how they decoded the writing in the 1950s (or thereabouts?) > > The book is a special tribute to Alice Kober who did most of the heavy > lifting, but was not given proper credit (until this book of course!) It's > wonderfully written and reads almost like a detective novel. A nice break > from dense reading... if you need a break. > > For those not familiar with Linear B it is a syllabic script. > > I noticed that Margalit Fox also wrote a book called, "Talking Hands: What > sign language reveals about the mind." > > And yes, Andy, Linear B would supply you evidence about administrative > purposes! :) > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: evolution and national wealth.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 83836 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150115/c52cd189/attachment.jpg From peterfh46@gmail.com Thu Jan 15 04:29:06 2015 From: peterfh46@gmail.com (Peter Hourdequin) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 21:29:06 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> Message-ID: Very interesting, thanks! I am currently writing a contextualization chapter for my Phd on digital media literacy/discourse in Japanese higher education. I'm writing from a CHAT paradigm (the reason I joined this list), and thus to flush out the cultural-historical context of my study I am briefly describing the development of print literacy in Japan from pre-modern times. It's very interesting how wood block printing enabled the broad dissemination of religious texts long before movable type came to the archipelago. Also, the way aristocratic governance, class, and commerce dictated the spread of literacy in different ways. Rubinger's book, 'Literacy in Early Modern Japan' has been a great resource on this. In terms of the bigger picture, your book looks fascinating and seems like it will be very useful, so I plan to track it down. In the meantime though, would you mind telling me the pages this quote comes from so I can cite if necessary before the book arrives (english books sometimes require a long wait in Japan). Thanks very much, (another) Peter > On Jan 15, 2015, at 8:32 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > I've written about the Oriental Institute exhibition and web-text as follows (Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Vygotsky and literacy research: A methodological framework. Boston: Sense.): > > Writing as Tool and Sign > People have been communicating through symbol systems for quite a long time. The abilities to speak and use language (distinctions made by anthropologists to refer separately to the ability to form sounds audibly and the development of a systematic organization of sounds and symbols into a patterned scheme of communication) have characterized both humans and their antecedent primates since early in their evolutionary development (Fitch, 2000) as a way to produce auditory symbols that represent objects, ideas, actions, and other nonlinguistic referents. Researchers dispute the point at which humans began using language, with estimates ranging from 10,000-100,000 years ago, depending on the evidence consulted (e.g., Atkinson, 2011; Gray & Atkinson, 2003). > The first written symbol system was numeric and preceded linguistic symbol systems by about four millennia. In about 7500 BCE, members of the early Meso-potamian society began impressing numeric symbols in clay to represent their so-cial and commercial transactions (Schmandt-Besserat, 2011). Before the appear-ance of the cuneiform and hieroglyphic linguistic texts that first appeared between 3500 and 3200 BCE, Mesopotamian and Egyptian people used primitive stamp and cylinder seals, i.e., round stones that people used to make impressions in clay. Each seal was specific to an individual or social group to "brand" their belongings as distinctively their property; the seal thus marked an object as residing within a particular individual or group's archival record. Mesopotamians also used clay "envelopes" prior to the emergence of a formal script. These devices consisted of hollow balls with small tokens sealed inside that served a contractual role, provid-ing a form of record-keeping that led to the recording of numbers on clay, which itself was the immediate precursor for their cuneiform script (Woods, 2010a). > Subsequently, all known writing systems originated from four independently developed scripts, a relatively new finding that revises previous theories that saw writing originating in the Eastern Mediterranean region and gradually spreading from there (Woods, 2010a). The most recent data regarding writing's origins-a date that is subject to continual revision as archeology produces new sources of evidence-indicate that the Egypt and Mesopotamia were indeed the first societies to develop writing systems, each created separately and without one another's influence. Independent of these developments, and toward different cultural ends using unique symbol systems, Chinese (1200 BCE) and Mesoamerican (1200-600 BCE) systems followed to produce the prototypes for the remainder of the world to follow. > Unlike today's writing, the Mesopotamian pictographic text, like all early forms of writing, was used exclusively to maintain economic records of transactions among those of high status. The curators of the exhibition at the University of Chicago's Oriental Institute that documents this historical record (detailed in Woods, 2010a) report that about 90% of texts recovered from Mesopotamia were administrative documents that became necessary during a population expansion in Uruk in about 3500 BCE. This growth produced a more complex social and trading civilization that required a bureaucracy for its organization of goods and how they were distributed across the stratified society's inhabitants. > Determining what counted as writing and what served as a precursor requires some key distinctions. The contributors to Woods' (2010a) edited volume > define writing as a one-to-one correspondence between text and speech. When Egyptian hieroglyphics were invented, the creators used the rebus principle-in the English alphabet, for example, drawing an eye shape to signify the I sound-as well as pictograms to represent specific objects. . . . The Egyptians eventually moved to full representation, "sound by sound and word by word," so that when one person reads a text, it sounds the same as when another reads it. Ancient cave paintings, by contrast, do not count as writing-different people viewing a cave painting may use different words to tell its story. (Kott, 2011, n. p.) > Kott (2011) further reports that to Woods (2010b), the written scripts' use of characters and grammar represents the boundary between prehistory and history because it enabled people to document the present and past and thus provide a record of the evolution of their society. Serving this historical and contemporary purpose, writing reveals each culture's social organization and cultural thrust: its teleological ends and the primary tool, a written script, through which its commerce is archived and thus used as the template for new transactions. > The field of comparative human cognition (Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition, 1978) emphasizes the manner in which tool-mediated thinking serves and in turn helps to reproduce a culture's goals and practices and channel them toward its sense of optimal developmental outcome. The use of writing in Indo-European cultures as a bureaucratic means of record-keeping for goods, labor, and production suggests much about this area as the origin of capitalist societies. In contrast, in China and in Mesoamerica, scripts most likely developed for religious purposes: > In China, the social component is clearly in evidence as witnessed by the emergent Shang state (ca. 1200 BC[E]), but writing is first attested primarily within the context of divination-for the purpose of recording royal divina-tions performed at the Shang court. Written on turtle shells and ox scapulas, these inscriptions recorded the answers to queries that were put to the gods [see Shaughnessy, 2010]. The Mesoamerican case is even more nebulous. The earliest writing in the Americas-the undeciphered Zapotec and Isthmi-an scripts and the first Maya writing-is essentially commemorative with a considerable theological component, many of the glyphs having a basis in long-established iconographic traditions and a calendrical system of great cultural significance. . . . Further, in the better-understood Maya case, the ad-vent of sociopolitical complexity, as witnessed by monumental architecture and increased social stratification, predates the first texts by several centuries. . . . These are contexts that may suggest religious and cultural motivations for writing, rather than administrative or economic necessities [see Palka, 2010]. (Woods, 2010b, p. 17) > If these scripts are indicative of their societies' sense of telos and the use of writing to mediate development toward that end, they reveal profoundly different understandings of the purpose of life on earth and how to live it socially and cul-turally. In this chapter I move to a more modern-day conception of the role of writing in society, emphasizing its tool function and embedding writing practice in broader cultural processes so as to understand its role in current educational prac-tice and in the abundant settings in which writing plays a role outside school. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peg Griffin > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 11:07 PM > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > About writing origins, Henry: There's some accessible and reliable info through that U of Chicago Oriental Institute museum web-site I mentioned. > You can download the catalog for free - over 200 pages of good essays and illustrations. > http://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/oimp3 > 2.pdf > The first chapter has a good discussion about writing and other early graphic representations from art and administrative functions. It has a reasonable bibliography. Subsequent specialized chapters also carry good documentation. It's certainly a good start if you want to follow this up. > > Peg Griffin, Ph. D. > Washington, DC 20003 > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 7:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Yes, thank you, Helen > I have a couple of questions: > 1)The movie Cave of Forgotten Dreams focuses on cave drawings of Southern France that date back 32,000 years. Writing may date back only about 5 thousand years, but I understand that writing systems begin with pictographs, like in the caves of southern France. Is that relevant to this thread? > 2) Does oral history count as history? > Henry > > > > > > I have a question >> On Jan 14, 2015, at 2:30 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: >> >> Thanks, Helena! It is lovely. A while ago I had skimmed it but >> misplaced ways to get to it for deep reading and use of it. >> Besides just liking this sort of thing, I've had some luck getting >> teacher ed students to see contemporary cultural and language >> diversity a little differently when they get a chance to see history >> they might have missed out on in their prior education. >> Peg >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen >> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 2:06 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: 'Mikhail Munipov' >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >> >> And there's this: >> >> https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201102/roads.of.arabia.htm >> >> This is a gorgeous exhibit, if it comes near you. For the text about >> writing >> 2000-1500 BCE, scroll about half way down. The exhibit has stones, set >> side by side, with different ancient scripts. >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> >>> On Jan 13, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: >>> >>> Here's a little side track: There's a web trace of a 2010 >>> well-curated >> museum exhibit on writing from the U of Chicago Oriental Institute. >>> http://oi.uchicago.edu/museum/special/writing/ >>> >>> And here are a few little outtakes: >>> "four instances and places in human history when writing was >> invented from scratch - in Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Mesoamerica - >> without previous exposure to or knowledge of writing. It appears >> likely that all other writing systems evolved from the four systems we >> have in our exhibition." >>> "the earliest cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia (today's >> Iraq), dating to about 3200 BC," >>> " early Egyptian writing that includes tags and labels from >> the tombs of the first kings (about 3320 BC) as well as hieroglyphic >> writing and other scripts from the Nile Valley." >>> " Chinese writing, which emerged about 1200 BC, will be >> shown on oracle bones" >>> " Mayan hieroglyphs from the 7th century AD will show how >> early Mesoamericans wrote." >>> " Long believed to have been invented in Phoenicia in about >> 1000 BC, the earliest alphabetic texts are now those found in the Sinai. >> This earliest alphabet was derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs as early >> as >> 1800 BC, well over five hundred years earlier than had been known." >>> There are some lovely little animations about the development of >>> cuneiform >> and one animation about a hieroglyph changing and eventually >> appropriated for a Greek letter. >>> >>> I love this little site and fear the day I try to open it and find U >>> of Chicago has abandoned it. Peg >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >>> Behalf Of Andy Blunden >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:24 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Cc: Mikhail Munipov >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >>> >>> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed >>> from >> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their >> own history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. >>> >>> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky >>> had >> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is >> taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian >> expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and >> development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 >> BCE I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. >> The development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. >>> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: >>> >>> "This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to >>> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the >>> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to >>> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of >>> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of >>> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human >>> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them >>> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the >>> cultural development of others has become degraded. >>> "/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist >>> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented >>> among these primeval peoples, can only be called "relatively >>> primitive." Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the >>> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. >>> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data >>> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels >>> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of >>> different cultures."(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) >>> >>> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" >>> as >> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates >> focuses on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the >> implication that the cultural development around the emergence of >> labour, i.e., the production of tools, was part of evolutionary >> development, prior and leading up to the formation of homo sapiens >> sapiens. There is no chapter covering the period between 2 million >> years ago and say `00,000 years ago, where cultural and biological > formation are interacting. >>> >>> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges >> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a >> tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and >> tool-using activity together. >>> >>> Andy >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> -- >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >>>> THANKS for the appropriate links! >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >>>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/ind >> ex.htm >>>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >>>> >>>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >>>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >>>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >>>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >>>> a species. Then he says: >>>> >>>> "With men we enter /history/." >>>> >>>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >>>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >>>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >>>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >>>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >>>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >>>> between evolution of the species and historical development of >>>> culture. >>>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >>>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >>>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >>>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >>>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >>>> >>>> Andy >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Colleagues-- >>>> >>>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >>>> attributed to Engels, >>>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >>>> replaced by >>>> the laws of history." >>>> >>>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >>>> "quotation" or as >>>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > From smago@uga.edu Thu Jan 15 04:33:11 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 12:33:11 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> Message-ID: Pp 157-159, thanks for asking. p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Hourdequin Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 7:29 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history Very interesting, thanks! I am currently writing a contextualization chapter for my Phd on digital media literacy/discourse in Japanese higher education. I'm writing from a CHAT paradigm (the reason I joined this list), and thus to flush out the cultural-historical context of my study I am briefly describing the development of print literacy in Japan from pre-modern times. It's very interesting how wood block printing enabled the broad dissemination of religious texts long before movable type came to the archipelago. Also, the way aristocratic governance, class, and commerce dictated the spread of literacy in different ways. Rubinger's book, 'Literacy in Early Modern Japan' has been a great resource on this. In terms of the bigger picture, your book looks fascinating and seems like it will be very useful, so I plan to track it down. In the meantime though, would you mind telling me the pages this quote comes from so I can cite if necessary before the book arrives (english books sometimes require a long wait in Japan). Thanks very much, (another) Peter > On Jan 15, 2015, at 8:32 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > I've written about the Oriental Institute exhibition and web-text as follows (Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Vygotsky and literacy research: A methodological framework. Boston: Sense.): > > Writing as Tool and Sign > People have been communicating through symbol systems for quite a long time. The abilities to speak and use language (distinctions made by anthropologists to refer separately to the ability to form sounds audibly and the development of a systematic organization of sounds and symbols into a patterned scheme of communication) have characterized both humans and their antecedent primates since early in their evolutionary development (Fitch, 2000) as a way to produce auditory symbols that represent objects, ideas, actions, and other nonlinguistic referents. Researchers dispute the point at which humans began using language, with estimates ranging from 10,000-100,000 years ago, depending on the evidence consulted (e.g., Atkinson, 2011; Gray & Atkinson, 2003). > The first written symbol system was numeric and preceded linguistic symbol systems by about four millennia. In about 7500 BCE, members of the early Meso-potamian society began impressing numeric symbols in clay to represent their so-cial and commercial transactions (Schmandt-Besserat, 2011). Before the appear-ance of the cuneiform and hieroglyphic linguistic texts that first appeared between 3500 and 3200 BCE, Mesopotamian and Egyptian people used primitive stamp and cylinder seals, i.e., round stones that people used to make impressions in clay. Each seal was specific to an individual or social group to "brand" their belongings as distinctively their property; the seal thus marked an object as residing within a particular individual or group's archival record. Mesopotamians also used clay "envelopes" prior to the emergence of a formal script. These devices consisted of hollow balls with small tokens sealed inside that served a contractual role, provid-ing a form of record-keeping that led to the recording of numbers on clay, which itself was the immediate precursor for their cuneiform script (Woods, 2010a). > Subsequently, all known writing systems originated from four independently developed scripts, a relatively new finding that revises previous theories that saw writing originating in the Eastern Mediterranean region and gradually spreading from there (Woods, 2010a). The most recent data regarding writing's origins-a date that is subject to continual revision as archeology produces new sources of evidence-indicate that the Egypt and Mesopotamia were indeed the first societies to develop writing systems, each created separately and without one another's influence. Independent of these developments, and toward different cultural ends using unique symbol systems, Chinese (1200 BCE) and Mesoamerican (1200-600 BCE) systems followed to produce the prototypes for the remainder of the world to follow. > Unlike today's writing, the Mesopotamian pictographic text, like all early forms of writing, was used exclusively to maintain economic records of transactions among those of high status. The curators of the exhibition at the University of Chicago's Oriental Institute that documents this historical record (detailed in Woods, 2010a) report that about 90% of texts recovered from Mesopotamia were administrative documents that became necessary during a population expansion in Uruk in about 3500 BCE. This growth produced a more complex social and trading civilization that required a bureaucracy for its organization of goods and how they were distributed across the stratified society's inhabitants. > Determining what counted as writing and what served as a precursor > requires some key distinctions. The contributors to Woods' (2010a) edited volume define writing as a one-to-one correspondence between text and speech. When Egyptian hieroglyphics were invented, the creators used the rebus principle-in the English alphabet, for example, drawing an eye shape to signify the I sound-as well as pictograms to represent specific objects. . . . The Egyptians eventually moved to full representation, "sound by sound and word by word," so that when one person reads a text, it sounds the same as when another reads it. Ancient cave paintings, by contrast, do not count as writing-different people viewing a cave painting may use different words to tell its story. (Kott, 2011, n. p.) > Kott (2011) further reports that to Woods (2010b), the written scripts' use of characters and grammar represents the boundary between prehistory and history because it enabled people to document the present and past and thus provide a record of the evolution of their society. Serving this historical and contemporary purpose, writing reveals each culture's social organization and cultural thrust: its teleological ends and the primary tool, a written script, through which its commerce is archived and thus used as the template for new transactions. > The field of comparative human cognition (Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition, 1978) emphasizes the manner in which tool-mediated thinking serves and in turn helps to reproduce a culture's goals and practices and channel them toward its sense of optimal developmental outcome. The use of writing in Indo-European cultures as a bureaucratic means of record-keeping for goods, labor, and production suggests much about this area as the origin of capitalist societies. In contrast, in China and in Mesoamerica, scripts most likely developed for religious purposes: > In China, the social component is clearly in evidence as witnessed by the emergent Shang state (ca. 1200 BC[E]), but writing is first attested primarily within the context of divination-for the purpose of recording royal divina-tions performed at the Shang court. Written on turtle shells and ox scapulas, these inscriptions recorded the answers to queries that were put to the gods [see Shaughnessy, 2010]. The Mesoamerican case is even more nebulous. The earliest writing in the Americas-the undeciphered Zapotec and Isthmi-an scripts and the first Maya writing-is essentially commemorative with a considerable theological component, many of the glyphs having a basis in long-established iconographic traditions and a calendrical system of great cultural significance. . . . Further, in the better-understood Maya case, the ad-vent of sociopolitical complexity, as witnessed by monumental architecture and increased social stratification, predates the first texts by several centuries. . . . These are contexts that may suggest religious and cultural motivations for writing, rather than administrative or economic necessities [see Palka, 2010]. (Woods, 2010b, p. 17) > If these scripts are indicative of their societies' sense of telos and the use of writing to mediate development toward that end, they reveal profoundly different understandings of the purpose of life on earth and how to live it socially and cul-turally. In this chapter I move to a more modern-day conception of the role of writing in society, emphasizing its tool function and embedding writing practice in broader cultural processes so as to understand its role in current educational prac-tice and in the abundant settings in which writing plays a role outside school. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of > Peg Griffin > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 11:07 PM > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > About writing origins, Henry: There's some accessible and reliable info through that U of Chicago Oriental Institute museum web-site I mentioned. > You can download the catalog for free - over 200 pages of good essays and illustrations. > http://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs > /oimp3 > 2.pdf > The first chapter has a good discussion about writing and other early graphic representations from art and administrative functions. It has a reasonable bibliography. Subsequent specialized chapters also carry good documentation. It's certainly a good start if you want to follow this up. > > Peg Griffin, Ph. D. > Washington, DC 20003 > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 7:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Yes, thank you, Helen > I have a couple of questions: > 1)The movie Cave of Forgotten Dreams focuses on cave drawings of Southern France that date back 32,000 years. Writing may date back only about 5 thousand years, but I understand that writing systems begin with pictographs, like in the caves of southern France. Is that relevant to this thread? > 2) Does oral history count as history? > Henry > > > > > > I have a question >> On Jan 14, 2015, at 2:30 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: >> >> Thanks, Helena! It is lovely. A while ago I had skimmed it but >> misplaced ways to get to it for deep reading and use of it. >> Besides just liking this sort of thing, I've had some luck getting >> teacher ed students to see contemporary cultural and language >> diversity a little differently when they get a chance to see history >> they might have missed out on in their prior education. >> Peg >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen >> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 2:06 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: 'Mikhail Munipov' >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >> >> And there's this: >> >> https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201102/roads.of.arabia.htm >> >> This is a gorgeous exhibit, if it comes near you. For the text about >> writing >> 2000-1500 BCE, scroll about half way down. The exhibit has stones, >> set side by side, with different ancient scripts. >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> >>> On Jan 13, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: >>> >>> Here's a little side track: There's a web trace of a 2010 >>> well-curated >> museum exhibit on writing from the U of Chicago Oriental Institute. >>> http://oi.uchicago.edu/museum/special/writing/ >>> >>> And here are a few little outtakes: >>> "four instances and places in human history when writing was >> invented from scratch - in Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Mesoamerica >> - without previous exposure to or knowledge of writing. It appears >> likely that all other writing systems evolved from the four systems >> we have in our exhibition." >>> "the earliest cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia (today's >> Iraq), dating to about 3200 BC," >>> " early Egyptian writing that includes tags and labels from >> the tombs of the first kings (about 3320 BC) as well as hieroglyphic >> writing and other scripts from the Nile Valley." >>> " Chinese writing, which emerged about 1200 BC, will be >> shown on oracle bones" >>> " Mayan hieroglyphs from the 7th century AD will show how >> early Mesoamericans wrote." >>> " Long believed to have been invented in Phoenicia in about >> 1000 BC, the earliest alphabetic texts are now those found in the Sinai. >> This earliest alphabet was derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs as early >> as >> 1800 BC, well over five hundred years earlier than had been known." >>> There are some lovely little animations about the development of >>> cuneiform >> and one animation about a hieroglyph changing and eventually >> appropriated for a Greek letter. >>> >>> I love this little site and fear the day I try to open it and find U >>> of Chicago has abandoned it. Peg >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >>> Behalf Of Andy Blunden >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:24 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Cc: Mikhail Munipov >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >>> >>> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed >>> from >> animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their >> own history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. >>> >>> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky >>> had >> poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is >> taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central >> Asian expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins >> and development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. >> 2,000 BCE I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. >> The development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. >>> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: >>> >>> "This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to >>> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the >>> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to >>> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of >>> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of >>> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human >>> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them >>> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the >>> cultural development of others has become degraded. >>> "/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist >>> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented >>> among these primeval peoples, can only be called "relatively >>> primitive." Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the >>> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. >>> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data >>> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels >>> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of >>> different cultures."(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) >>> >>> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" >>> as >> distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates >> focuses on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the >> implication that the cultural development around the emergence of >> labour, i.e., the production of tools, was part of evolutionary >> development, prior and leading up to the formation of homo sapiens >> sapiens. There is no chapter covering the period between 2 million >> years ago and say `00,000 years ago, where cultural and biological > formation are interacting. >>> >>> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges >> simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a >> tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and >> tool-using activity together. >>> >>> Andy >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -- >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >>>> THANKS for the appropriate links! >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >>>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/in >> d >> ex.htm >>>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >>>> >>>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >>>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >>>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >>>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >>>> a species. Then he says: >>>> >>>> "With men we enter /history/." >>>> >>>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >>>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >>>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >>>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >>>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >>>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >>>> between evolution of the species and historical development of >>>> culture. >>>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >>>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >>>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >>>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >>>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >>>> >>>> Andy >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -- >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Colleagues-- >>>> >>>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >>>> attributed to Engels, >>>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >>>> replaced by >>>> the laws of history." >>>> >>>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >>>> "quotation" or as >>>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as >>>> an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > From Peg.Griffin@att.net Thu Jan 15 06:44:24 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 09:44:24 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> Message-ID: <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> Thanks for posting that good pr?cis/synopsis, Peter. Lovely to know of another person who likes that work! Two bits in this field of work keep enticing more thinking: (1) The relation between phonogram and logograms (page 21 and following in the catalog): All four early systems have both. There are good specific concrete details for thinking about diversity in the ways writing systems change over time, including the diverse factors that might be involved in change (or retention). (2) The complexity of the socio-cultural contexts as writing systems first appear (page 17 and following in the catalog): There isn?t evidence for neat direct for ?if there?s X, there will be Y? kind of universal statements. In some cases, there appear to be X (like need for administrative tools) and no Y (like a writing system) AND in other cases the gap is on the other side of the conditional. And hovering over it all is a good measure of chicken and egg conundrums. I'm going to fade into the lurk-work again but want to thank XMCA for the impetus to think more about these matters as I continue to prepare to have conversations with diverse teachers to be as they prepare for their wonderfully diverse ECE classroom communities in this complex socio-cultural context! Peg Peg Griffin, Ph. D. Washington, DC 20003 -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 6:32 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history I've written about the Oriental Institute exhibition and web-text as follows (Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Vygotsky and literacy research: A methodological framework. Boston: Sense.): Writing as Tool and Sign People have been communicating through symbol systems for quite a long time. The abilities to speak and use language (distinctions made by anthropologists to refer separately to the ability to form sounds audibly and the development of a systematic organization of sounds and symbols into a patterned scheme of communication) have characterized both humans and their antecedent primates since early in their evolutionary development (Fitch, 2000) as a way to produce auditory symbols that represent objects, ideas, actions, and other nonlinguistic referents. Researchers dispute the point at which humans began using language, with estimates ranging from 10,000-100,000 years ago, depending on the evidence consulted (e.g., Atkinson, 2011; Gray & Atkinson, 2003). The first written symbol system was numeric and preceded linguistic symbol systems by about four millennia. In about 7500 BCE, members of the early Meso-potamian society began impressing numeric symbols in clay to represent their so-cial and commercial transactions (Schmandt-Besserat, 2011). Before the appear-ance of the cuneiform and hieroglyphic linguistic texts that first appeared between 3500 and 3200 BCE, Mesopotamian and Egyptian people used primitive stamp and cylinder seals, i.e., round stones that people used to make impressions in clay. Each seal was specific to an individual or social group to "brand" their belongings as distinctively their property; the seal thus marked an object as residing within a particular individual or group's archival record. Mesopotamians also used clay "envelopes" prior to the emergence of a formal script. These devices consisted of hollow balls with small tokens sealed inside that served a contractual role, provid-ing a form of record-keeping that led to the recording of numbers on clay, which itself was the immediate precursor for their cuneiform script (Woods, 2010a). Subsequently, all known writing systems originated from four independently developed scripts, a relatively new finding that revises previous theories that saw writing originating in the Eastern Mediterranean region and gradually spreading from there (Woods, 2010a). The most recent data regarding writing's origins-a date that is subject to continual revision as archeology produces new sources of evidence-indicate that the Egypt and Mesopotamia were indeed the first societies to develop writing systems, each created separately and without one another's influence. Independent of these developments, and toward different cultural ends using unique symbol systems, Chinese (1200 BCE) and Mesoamerican (1200-600 BCE) systems followed to produce the prototypes for the remainder of the world to follow. Unlike today's writing, the Mesopotamian pictographic text, like all early forms of writing, was used exclusively to maintain economic records of transactions among those of high status. The curators of the exhibition at the University of Chicago's Oriental Institute that documents this historical record (detailed in Woods, 2010a) report that about 90% of texts recovered from Mesopotamia were administrative documents that became necessary during a population expansion in Uruk in about 3500 BCE. This growth produced a more complex social and trading civilization that required a bureaucracy for its organization of goods and how they were distributed across the stratified society's inhabitants. Determining what counted as writing and what served as a precursor requires some key distinctions. The contributors to Woods' (2010a) edited volume define writing as a one-to-one correspondence between text and speech. When Egyptian hieroglyphics were invented, the creators used the rebus principle-in the English alphabet, for example, drawing an eye shape to signify the I sound-as well as pictograms to represent specific objects. . . . The Egyptians eventually moved to full representation, "sound by sound and word by word," so that when one person reads a text, it sounds the same as when another reads it. Ancient cave paintings, by contrast, do not count as writing-different people viewing a cave painting may use different words to tell its story. (Kott, 2011, n. p.) Kott (2011) further reports that to Woods (2010b), the written scripts' use of characters and grammar represents the boundary between prehistory and history because it enabled people to document the present and past and thus provide a record of the evolution of their society. Serving this historical and contemporary purpose, writing reveals each culture's social organization and cultural thrust: its teleological ends and the primary tool, a written script, through which its commerce is archived and thus used as the template for new transactions. The field of comparative human cognition (Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition, 1978) emphasizes the manner in which tool-mediated thinking serves and in turn helps to reproduce a culture's goals and practices and channel them toward its sense of optimal developmental outcome. The use of writing in Indo-European cultures as a bureaucratic means of record-keeping for goods, labor, and production suggests much about this area as the origin of capitalist societies. In contrast, in China and in Mesoamerica, scripts most likely developed for religious purposes: In China, the social component is clearly in evidence as witnessed by the emergent Shang state (ca. 1200 BC[E]), but writing is first attested primarily within the context of divination-for the purpose of recording royal divina-tions performed at the Shang court. Written on turtle shells and ox scapulas, these inscriptions recorded the answers to queries that were put to the gods [see Shaughnessy, 2010]. The Mesoamerican case is even more nebulous. The earliest writing in the Americas-the undeciphered Zapotec and Isthmi-an scripts and the first Maya writing-is essentially commemorative with a considerable theological component, many of the glyphs having a basis in long-established iconographic traditions and a calendrical system of great cultural significance. . . . Further, in the better-understood Maya case, the ad-vent of sociopolitical complexity, as witnessed by monumental architecture and increased social stratification, predates the first texts by several centuries. . . . These are contexts that may suggest religious and cultural motivations for writing, rather than administrative or economic necessities [see Palka, 2010]. (Woods, 2010b, p. 17) If these scripts are indicative of their societies' sense of telos and the use of writing to mediate development toward that end, they reveal profoundly different understandings of the purpose of life on earth and how to live it socially and cul-turally. In this chapter I move to a more modern-day conception of the role of writing in society, emphasizing its tool function and embedding writing practice in broader cultural processes so as to understand its role in current educational prac-tice and in the abundant settings in which writing plays a role outside school. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peg Griffin Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 11:07 PM To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history About writing origins, Henry: There's some accessible and reliable info through that U of Chicago Oriental Institute museum web-site I mentioned. You can download the catalog for free - over 200 pages of good essays and illustrations. http://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/oimp3 2.pdf The first chapter has a good discussion about writing and other early graphic representations from art and administrative functions. It has a reasonable bibliography. Subsequent specialized chapters also carry good documentation. It's certainly a good start if you want to follow this up. Peg Griffin, Ph. D. Washington, DC 20003 -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 7:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history Yes, thank you, Helen I have a couple of questions: 1)The movie Cave of Forgotten Dreams focuses on cave drawings of Southern France that date back 32,000 years. Writing may date back only about 5 thousand years, but I understand that writing systems begin with pictographs, like in the caves of southern France. Is that relevant to this thread? 2) Does oral history count as history? Henry I have a question > On Jan 14, 2015, at 2:30 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: > > Thanks, Helena! It is lovely. A while ago I had skimmed it but > misplaced ways to get to it for deep reading and use of it. > Besides just liking this sort of thing, I've had some luck getting > teacher ed students to see contemporary cultural and language > diversity a little differently when they get a chance to see history > they might have missed out on in their prior education. > Peg > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 2:06 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: 'Mikhail Munipov' > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > And there's this: > > https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201102/roads.of.arabia.htm > > This is a gorgeous exhibit, if it comes near you. For the text about > writing > 2000-1500 BCE, scroll about half way down. The exhibit has stones, set > side by side, with different ancient scripts. > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Jan 13, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: > >> Here's a little side track: There's a web trace of a 2010 >> well-curated > museum exhibit on writing from the U of Chicago Oriental Institute. >> http://oi.uchicago.edu/museum/special/writing/ >> >> And here are a few little outtakes: >> "four instances and places in human history when writing was > invented from scratch - in Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Mesoamerica - > without previous exposure to or knowledge of writing. It appears > likely that all other writing systems evolved from the four systems we > have in our exhibition." >> "the earliest cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia (today's > Iraq), dating to about 3200 BC," >> " early Egyptian writing that includes tags and labels from > the tombs of the first kings (about 3320 BC) as well as hieroglyphic > writing and other scripts from the Nile Valley." >> " Chinese writing, which emerged about 1200 BC, will be > shown on oracle bones" >> " Mayan hieroglyphs from the 7th century AD will show how > early Mesoamericans wrote." >> " Long believed to have been invented in Phoenicia in about > 1000 BC, the earliest alphabetic texts are now those found in the Sinai. > This earliest alphabet was derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs as early > as > 1800 BC, well over five hundred years earlier than had been known." >> There are some lovely little animations about the development of >> cuneiform > and one animation about a hieroglyph changing and eventually > appropriated for a Greek letter. >> >> I love this little site and fear the day I try to open it and find U >> of Chicago has abandoned it. Peg >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >> Behalf Of Andy Blunden >> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:24 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: Mikhail Munipov >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >> >> Actually, I think that "the more that human beings become removed >> from > animals in the narrower sense of the word, the more they make their > own history consciously" is near as dammit what you are looking for. >> >> Engels of course lacked good information. Even in his day Vygotsky >> had > poor information. In "Ape, Primitive Man and Child", "primitive" is > taken to mean "non-literate", as it was for Luria in his Central Asian > expedition, and a great deal of emphasis is put on the origins and > development of *writing*. But writing only appears in Egypt c. 2,000 > BCE I think, in any case, in evolutionary time scales 5 minutes ago. > The development of writing is nothing to do with evolution of the species. >> Vygotsky defines primitive man as follows: >> >> "This term is commonly used, admittedly as a conventional label, to >> designate certain peoples of the uncivilized world, situated at the >> lower levels of cultural development. It is not entirely right to >> call these peoples primitive, as a greater or lesser degree of >> civilization can unquestionably be observed in all of them. All of >> them have already emerged from the prehistoric phase of human >> existence. Some of them have very ancient traditions. Some of them >> have been influenced by remote and powerful cultures, while the >> cultural development of others has become degraded. >> "/Primitive man, in the true sense of the term, does not exist >> anywhere at the present time, /and the human type, as represented >> among these primeval peoples, can only be called "relatively >> primitive." Primitiveness in this sense is a lower level, and the >> starting point for the historical development of human behaviour. >> Material for the psychology of primitive man is provided by data >> concerning prehistoric man, the peoples situated at the lower levels >> of cultural development and the comparative psychology of peoples of >> different cultures."(Preface, 1930, Italics in the original) >> >> And from the start, this chapter is framed as "cultural development" >> as > distinct from "evolutionary development." Chapter 1 on primates > focuses on the limited use of tools possible for apes, with the > implication that the cultural development around the emergence of > labour, i.e., the production of tools, was part of evolutionary > development, prior and leading up to the formation of homo sapiens > sapiens. There is no chapter covering the period between 2 million > years ago and say `00,000 years ago, where cultural and biological formation are interacting. >> >> According to Engels and others including Dewey, speech emerges > simultaneously with tools. Dewey makes the point that a tool is not a > tool until its use is institutionalised, linking social, symbolic and > tool-using activity together. >> >> Andy >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -- >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >>> So perhaps its just my bad memory, Andy. the issues remain central. >>> THANKS for the appropriate links! >>> mike >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >>> >>> There can only be two sources of this idea: Engels' "Part Played >>> by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man" (1876) >>> > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/ind > ex.htm >>> and the Introduction to "Dialectics of Nature" (1883) >>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch01.htm >>> >>> In the latter work, after explaining how freeing the hands by >>> adopting an erect gait, led to the use of tools, meaning labour, >>> and this led to the expansion of the brain, language and sundry >>> other changes, and thus eventualy the emergence of human beings as >>> a species. Then he says: >>> >>> "With men we enter /history/." >>> >>> In the earlier document, he says: "Labour begins with the making >>> of tools" which Engels claims happened before the formation of >>> modern homo sapiens, contributing to that formation rather than >>> being a product of the formation of modern humans, and he narrates >>> a story which continues from this point up to socialist revolution >>> as if it were one continuous story, blurring over the distinction >>> between evolution of the species and historical development of >>> culture. >>> The nerest we come to your quote is: "the more that human beings >>> become removed from animals in the narrower sense of the word, the >>> more they make their own history consciously." The "narrower >>> sense" I presume means biological differentiation. So this could >>> count for what you are looking for, Mike. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues-- >>> >>> I seem to recall reading an idea, that I recall being >>> attributed to Engels, >>> that (rooughly) "more and more the laws of evolution are being >>> replaced by >>> the laws of history." >>> >>> Can anyone enlighten me either as to the source of this >>> "quotation" or as >>> to the source of my own confusion in this regard? >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> > > From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jan 15 09:38:15 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 17:38:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> , <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> Message-ID: <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> Hello! I thought to contribute to the marvelous pot of tradition and resilience with this fine short video. It is beautiful. Is this what evolution looks like close up? http://aeon.co/video/culture/houshi-a-short-film-about-a-1300-year-old-japanese-ryokan/ Kind regards, Annalisa From smago@uga.edu Thu Jan 15 10:30:41 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 18:30:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> , <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> Message-ID: Publishers give manuscript reviewers a choice between a cash payment and books from the catalogue. I recently got some books (yet-unread) that might be of interest to MCAers following this discussion: Schaller, Norenzayan, Heine, Yamagishi, and Kameda (Eds), Evolution, Culture, and the Human Mind Schaller, Simpson, and Kenrick (Eds), Evolution and Social Psychology Both from Psychology Press (Taylor & Francis), which has a series in this vein. p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 12:38 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history Hello! I thought to contribute to the marvelous pot of tradition and resilience with this fine short video. It is beautiful. Is this what evolution looks like close up? http://aeon.co/video/culture/houshi-a-short-film-about-a-1300-year-old-japanese-ryokan/ Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jan 15 10:51:20 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 10:51:20 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> Message-ID: Yes, all of these developments are of relevance to cultural historical approaches to human nature. mike On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Publishers give manuscript reviewers a choice between a cash payment and > books from the catalogue. I recently got some books (yet-unread) that might > be of interest to MCAers following this discussion: > > Schaller, Norenzayan, Heine, Yamagishi, and Kameda (Eds), Evolution, > Culture, and the Human Mind > Schaller, Simpson, and Kenrick (Eds), Evolution and Social Psychology > > Both from Psychology Press (Taylor & Francis), which has a series in this > vein. p > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 12:38 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Hello! > > I thought to contribute to the marvelous pot of tradition and resilience > with this fine short video. > > It is beautiful. Is this what evolution looks like close up? > > > http://aeon.co/video/culture/houshi-a-short-film-about-a-1300-year-old-japanese-ryokan/ > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jan 15 12:49:19 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 20:49:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> , Message-ID: <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> Hello! This may also be relevant! https://polymus.ru/eng/ The Polytech.Science.Art program of the Polytechnic Museum in Moscow, Russia, is dedicated to one of the most significant phenomena of contemporary culture: interdisciplinary collaboration between artists, scientists and technology specialists. The program launched in 2014 with a series of workshops and lectures embracing such scientific disciplines as information technology, neurobiology, physics, psychoacoustics and others. Program experts help to formulate comprehensive ideas on the synthesis of science, art and technology as an artistic method; they also provide a space for innovation, where they present art projects demonstrating scientific and technological approaches and innovative methods. All Polytech.Science.Art projects are based in the research and interaction of international science, art and technology experts and local participants; collaboration results are of not only artistic, but also theoretical significance. In the coming years, the program will be developed through artist-in-residence programs, exhibitions, conferences, and public and professional events. Kind regards, Annalisa From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Thu Jan 15 12:52:52 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 15:52:52 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Haiti by the numbers, five years after Message-ID: Neoliberal reconstruction in haiti: http://haiti-liberte.com/archives/volume8-27/Haiti%20by%20the%20numbers.asp#.VLgngWMdSJA.mailto Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info? From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jan 15 13:01:38 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 13:01:38 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Haiti by the numbers, five years after In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: clear and depressing mike On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > Neoliberal reconstruction in haiti: > > > http://haiti-liberte.com/archives/volume8-27/Haiti%20by%20the%20numbers.asp#.VLgngWMdSJA.mailto > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jan 15 17:02:23 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 01:02:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Haiti by the numbers, five years after In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1421370143297.34782@unm.edu> What can be done? I think many are upset about this, but do not know what to do. Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jan 15 17:11:34 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 17:11:34 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: University jobs in Psychology - General, and other related areas In-Reply-To: <1421368941.54b85e6d55b22@massmailer.academickeys.com> References: <1421368941.54b85e6d55b22@massmailer.academickeys.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Andrea McCarthy Date: Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 4:42 PM Subject: University jobs in Psychology - General, and other related areas To: mcole@ucsd.edu Jan. 15th, 2015 Dear Colleague, This month's issue of *AcademicKeys' e-Flier for Social Sciences* features *18* faculty openings, *6* senior administrative positions, and *0* post-doc opportunities and links to hundreds more positions in higher education. This AcademicKeys e-Flier contains higher education positions in: - Psychology - General Want to receive additional job notifications from our *KeyVersity diversity program*? Learn more! *NEW! - Assistant Provost for Inclusion * *Valparaiso University* Office of the Provost *Location* Valparaiso, IN *Posted* Jan. 12, 2015 *Executive Director of Advancement Services * *University of St. Thomas* Institutional Advancement -- Advancement Services *Location* St. Paul, MN *Posted* Dec. 12, 2014 *Chair, Department of Behavioral and Clinical Medicine * *American University of the Caribbean (AUC)* Behavioral Sciences *Location* *Posted* Dec. 4, 2014 *Simulation Director * *American University of the Caribbean (AUC)* School of Medicine -- Behavioral and Clinical Medicine Dept. *Location* , Dutch Caribbean *Posted* Dec. 3, 2014 *Faculty, College of Arts and Sciences * *The Ohio State University* College of Arts and Sciences *Location* Columbus, OH *Posted* Oct. 31, 2014 *Assistant Vice President, Student Financial Services * *Columbia College Chicago* Student Financial Services *Location* Chicago *Posted* Oct. 28, 2014 *NEW! - Thinking Matters Fellow * *Stanford University* Office of the Vice Provost for Undergraduate Education *Location* Stanford, CA *Posted* Dec. 15, 2014 *NEW! - Assistant Professor / Research Method and Statistics * *Sultan Qaboos University* Psychology *Location* Muscat, Oman *Posted* Dec. 15, 2014 *NEW! - Assistant Professor / Measurement and Evaluation * *Sultan Qaboos University* Psychology *Location* Muscat, Muscat, Oman *Posted* Dec. 15, 2014 *NEW! - Assistant Professor / Career Counseling * *Sultan Qaboos University* Psychology *Location* Muscat, Muscat, Oman *Posted* Dec. 15, 2014 *NEW! - Assistant Professor / Learning disabilities * *Sultan Qaboos University* Psychology *Location* Muscat, Muscat, Oman *Posted* Dec. 15, 2014 *Computational Neuroscience Faculty * *University of Minnesota, Twin Cities* CMRR -- Center for Magnetic Resonance Research *Location* Minneapolis, MN *Posted* Dec. 4, 2014 *Full-time, Tenure-track Faculty Position in Psychology * *Trinity Western University* Faculty of Humanities and Social Sci. -- Dept. of Psychology *Location* Langley, BC, Canada *Posted* Dec. 3, 2014 *Asst. or Associate Professor, Clinical Psychology Department * *Antioch University New England* Clinical Psychology Department *Location* Keene, NH *Posted* Dec. 2, 2014 *Lecturer in Social Work * *Qatar University* Department of Social Sciences *Location* Doha, Qatar, Qatar *Posted* Nov. 13, 2014 *Assistant/Associate Professor ? Tenure Track * *University of Saint Joseph* Department of Psychology *Location* West Hartford, CT *Posted* Nov. 1, 2014 *Adult Outpatient Psychiatry Faculty * *West Virginia University* Department of Behavioral Medicine & Psychiatry *Location* Morgantown, WV *Posted* Oct. 29, 2014 *Psychology Instructor * *Carrington College* Faculty *Location* Las Vegas, NV *Posted* Oct. 28, 2014 *Assistant Professor in Industrial/Organizational Psychology * *Florida Institute of Technology* School of Psychology -- Industrial/Organizational Psychol... *Location* Melbourne, FL *Posted* Oct. 17, 2014 *Instructor or Asst. Prof. of Psychology (Cognitive Psycho... * *Concordia College, Moorhead Minnesota* Psychology Department *Location* Moorhead, MN *Posted* Oct. 16, 2014 *Clinical Assistant Professor and Administrative Coordinator * *New York University* FAS Psychology *Location* New York, NY *Posted* Oct. 6, 2014 *Psychology Tenure-track Clinical Neuroscience or Cognitiv... * *University of St. Thomas* Department of Psychology *Location* St. Paul *Posted* Oct. 6, 2014 *Frances Young Tang '61 Chair in Chinese Studies * *Skidmore College* Dean of the Faculty *Location* Saratoga Springs, NY *Posted* Sep. 11, 2014 *Open Rank Faculty * *Colorado State University* Coll. of Health and Human Sciences -- School of Social Work *Location* Fort Collins, CO *Posted* Jul. 22, 2014 Update Your Subscription - Change your e-mail address - Subscribe or update your subscription Unsubscribe We sent this to: mcole@ucsd.edu - Unsubscribe from further e-Fliers We assure you that we make every attempt to honor requests to unsubscribe. Thank you for your patience! If you have any further comments or suggestions, please send an email to: EmailUs@AcademicKeys.com Sincerely, -- Andrea McCarthy amccarthy@AcademicKeys.com *AcademicKeys.com * 1066 Storrs Road, Suite D Storrs, CT 06268 USA 1.860.429.0218 -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Thu Jan 15 17:22:49 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 20:22:49 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Haiti by the numbers, five years after Message-ID: <1jv6fsnh2aiouj3wwgl21vef.1421371369595@email.android.com> We haitians are fighters. ?We have toppled every government the US, Canada, and The European Union have attempted to impose on us since Aristide. ? As a person of African descent I find christianity, given its historical record, very offensive. ?So I use the following analogy tongue and cheek. ?I see Haiti's relationship to the US comparable to that of Israel and the Roman Empire. ?I say, leave haiti alone and let the masses decide what they want to do with the country. ?If not, I will quote Toussaint Louverture here, "we defeated three super powers before, and we will do it again if need be!" Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: Annalisa Aguilar
Date:01/15/2015 8:02 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Haiti by the numbers, five years after
What can be done? I think many are upset about this, but do not know what to do. Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jan 15 17:41:13 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 01:41:13 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Haiti by the numbers, five years after In-Reply-To: <1jv6fsnh2aiouj3wwgl21vef.1421371369595@email.android.com> References: <1jv6fsnh2aiouj3wwgl21vef.1421371369595@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1421372473236.6484@unm.edu> Hi Paul, Well... thanks for calling the tool a fracking shovel. :) It doesn't mean that there are people, regardless of the Christian quotient, feel troubled by Haiti. If there were something to do that could really make a difference, we would, wouldn't we? If doing nothing is the better thing to do, OK. I was doing that already! :) Could it also be that people do not know what is happening on the ground? Is it possible to become more equitably informed? Without butting in? Looking at facts and figures don't contribute the gasoline to a theory of change, do they? I really don't know how to talk about it, but I am making an effort, even if it is awkward. Kind regards, Annalisa From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Thu Jan 15 17:51:03 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 20:51:03 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Haiti by the numbers, five years after Message-ID: <1qxygsct70e9r8jn8893gc85.1421373063179@email.android.com> There are too many hands in the pot in haiti...NGOs, foreign governments, protestant evangelists, and the Catholic Church once again...we ask the good people of the west to tell their governments to get out of the country! ?Use your democratic powers to control your governments! Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: Annalisa Aguilar
Date:01/15/2015 8:41 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Haiti by the numbers, five years after
Hi Paul, Well... thanks for calling the tool a fracking shovel. :) It doesn't mean that there are people, regardless of the Christian quotient, feel troubled by Haiti. If there were something to do that could really make a difference, we would, wouldn't we? If doing nothing is the better thing to do, OK. I was doing that already! :) Could it also be that people do not know what is happening on the ground? Is it possible to become more equitably informed? Without butting in? Looking at facts and figures don't contribute the gasoline to a theory of change, do they? I really don't know how to talk about it, but I am making an effort, even if it is awkward. Kind regards, Annalisa From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Fri Jan 16 02:46:35 2015 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (rjsp2) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 10:46:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Haiti by the numbers, five years after In-Reply-To: <1qxygsct70e9r8jn8893gc85.1421373063179@email.android.com> References: <1qxygsct70e9r8jn8893gc85.1421373063179@email.android.com> Message-ID: <54B8EC0B.5080701@open.ac.uk> I know little about Haiti, apart from having seen some of the work of Telecoms sans Frontieres (e.g. http://www.unfoundation.org/assets/pdf/haiti-earthquake-tsf-emergency-response-1.pdf) so perhaps I am badly placed to pronounce, but I have seen this sort of thing before, so can I make some points based on my general experience. First of all, doing something takes some effort. Although clicktivism is possible these days (a splendid example of the tool influencing the object), if you want to have any kind of real effect, you have to do some heavy lifting. Most of us ignore Haiti, as we ignore everything else most of the time. There is too much stuff for us to do anything else. I have done exactly the same. I now have two pieces of evidence: the page Paul mentions, and Paul's own impassioned reaction. From the page I glean one conclusion, which is that US action is directed, as it usually seems to be, primarily towards creating profit for US organisations, with any benefit to Haiti being a secondary consideration. So it seems to me that there are two possible courses of action for a concerned US citizen. Both are founded on doing some legwork to find out more about Haiti's current position and needs, for which the internet will serve as the starting point. The first course of action will be to identify NGOs which are working for the benefit of the people - I have no doubt there are some - and to support their work. The second is to use whatever means are at your disposal to influence your local congress and senate representatives to redirect US policy so that Haiti's needs become the first priority, not the second. You will be going up against an immovable object. But nobody ever went into politics for the short haul. No doubt many people here will have radically different views of the position, and you are welcome to shoot me down. Rob On 16/01/2015 01:51, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > There are too many hands in the pot in haiti...NGOs, foreign governments, protestant evangelists, and the Catholic Church once again...we ask the good people of the west to tell their governments to get out of the country! Use your democratic powers to control your governments! > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Annalisa Aguilar
Date:01/15/2015 8:41 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Haiti by the numbers, five years after
>
Hi Paul, > > Well... thanks for calling the tool a fracking shovel. :) > > It doesn't mean that there are people, regardless of the Christian quotient, feel troubled by Haiti. > > If there were something to do that could really make a difference, we would, wouldn't we? If doing nothing is the better thing to do, OK. I was doing that already! :) > > Could it also be that people do not know what is happening on the ground? Is it possible to become more equitably informed? Without butting in? > > Looking at facts and figures don't contribute the gasoline to a theory of change, do they? > > I really don't know how to talk about it, but I am making an effort, even if it is awkward. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Fri Jan 16 03:34:04 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 06:34:04 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Haiti by the numbers, five years after Message-ID: Briefly, Haiti's problems go back to the revolution. ?To use malcolm-x ' s metaphor, haiti was a successful revolution bcuz it was the first rebellion in the Americas where the house "niggers" and the field "niggers" agreed to work together to overthrow slavery. People fail to realize that the first two presidents, Alexander petion and boyer, of the republic were mulatto elites who were sent by napoleon ?to reclaim the island for France. ?Dessalines met with petion (the treaty of archaie) and they agreed to work together to rid the island of the french, spanish, and british. ?Following the war, dessalines crowned himself emperor and attempted a land reform program. ?As a result of the program, he was assassinated by petion and christophe who sought to implement somewhat of a share cropping system on the island. ?The majority of the africans, 70 percent of haiti's population was directly from africa when the revolution commences, refused to partake in anything resembling slavery and went into the mountains and the provinces, where they reproduced african village life. ?The mulatto elites claimed ?port-au-prince, and attempted to turn it into the Paris of the caribbean. The rest of haiti was claimed by the free black generals of the revolution. So since 1806, the death of dessalines, there has been an internal struggle between the mulatto (merchant) elites and the free (landowning) blacks over the state and it's meager resources at the expense of the african masses. ? Guess whose side racist america has been on attempting to implement policies that favor the mulatto merchant class at the expense of the landowning blacks and the masses, who still view the world in black, white, and mulatto? ?The latter two are the enemies of the poor black majority.? Essentially, haiti has been fighting a civil war since 1806! ? Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: rjsp2
Date:01/16/2015 5:46 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Haiti by the numbers, five years after
I know little about Haiti, apart from having seen some of the work of Telecoms sans Frontieres (e.g. http://www.unfoundation.org/assets/pdf/haiti-earthquake-tsf-emergency-response-1.pdf) so perhaps I am badly placed to pronounce, but I have seen this sort of thing before, so can I make some points based on my general experience. First of all, doing something takes some effort. Although clicktivism is possible these days (a splendid example of the tool influencing the object), if you want to have any kind of real effect, you have to do some heavy lifting. Most of us ignore Haiti, as we ignore everything else most of the time. There is too much stuff for us to do anything else. I have done exactly the same. I now have two pieces of evidence: the page Paul mentions, and Paul's own impassioned reaction. From the page I glean one conclusion, which is that US action is directed, as it usually seems to be, primarily towards creating profit for US organisations, with any benefit to Haiti being a secondary consideration. So it seems to me that there are two possible courses of action for a concerned US citizen. Both are founded on doing some legwork to find out more about Haiti's current position and needs, for which the internet will serve as the starting point. The first course of action will be to identify NGOs which are working for the benefit of the people - I have no doubt there are some - and to support their work. The second is to use whatever means are at your disposal to influence your local congress and senate representatives to redirect US policy so that Haiti's needs become the first priority, not the second. You will be going up against an immovable object. But nobody ever went into politics for the short haul. No doubt many people here will have radically different views of the position, and you are welcome to shoot me down. Rob On 16/01/2015 01:51, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > There are too many hands in the pot in haiti...NGOs, foreign governments, protestant evangelists, and the Catholic Church once again...we ask the good people of the west to tell their governments to get out of the country! Use your democratic powers to control your governments! > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Annalisa Aguilar
Date:01/15/2015 8:41 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Haiti by the numbers, five years after
>
Hi Paul, > > Well... thanks for calling the tool a fracking shovel. :) > > It doesn't mean that there are people, regardless of the Christian quotient, feel troubled by Haiti. > > If there were something to do that could really make a difference, we would, wouldn't we? If doing nothing is the better thing to do, OK. I was doing that already! :) > > Could it also be that people do not know what is happening on the ground? Is it possible to become more equitably informed? Without butting in? > > Looking at facts and figures don't contribute the gasoline to a theory of change, do they? > > I really don't know how to talk about it, but I am making an effort, even if it is awkward. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Jan 16 04:28:30 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 12:28:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Haiti by the numbers, five years after In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32E2CBCD-3634-4A0D-A609-FCF0402AF9EE@uniandes.edu.co> This was a recent attempt to explore the history of the Haitian revolution: Martin On Jan 16, 2015, at 6:34 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Briefly, Haiti's problems go back to the revolution. To use malcolm-x ' s metaphor, haiti was a successful revolution bcuz it was the first rebellion in the Americas where the house "niggers" and the field "niggers" agreed to work together to overthrow slavery. > > People fail to realize that the first two presidents, Alexander petion and boyer, of the republic were mulatto elites who were sent by napoleon to reclaim the island for France. Dessalines met with petion (the treaty of archaie) and they agreed to work together to rid the island of the french, spanish, and british. Following the war, dessalines crowned himself emperor and attempted a land reform program. As a result of the program, he was assassinated by petion and christophe who sought to implement somewhat of a share cropping system on the island. The majority of the africans, 70 percent of haiti's population was directly from africa when the revolution commences, refused to partake in anything resembling slavery and went into the mountains and the provinces, where they reproduced african village life. The mulatto elites claimed port-au-prince, and attempted to turn it into the Paris of the caribbean. The rest of haiti was claimed by the free black generals of the revolution. > > So since 1806, the death of dessalines, there has been an internal struggle between the mulatto (merchant) elites and the free (landowning) blacks over the state and it's meager resources at the expense of the african masses. > > Guess whose side racist america has been on attempting to implement policies that favor the mulatto merchant class at the expense of the landowning blacks and the masses, who still view the world in black, white, and mulatto? The latter two are the enemies of the poor black majority. > > Essentially, haiti has been fighting a civil war since 1806! > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: rjsp2
Date:01/16/2015 5:46 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Haiti by the numbers, five years after
>
I know little about Haiti, apart from having seen some of the work of > Telecoms sans Frontieres (e.g. > http://www.unfoundation.org/assets/pdf/haiti-earthquake-tsf-emergency-response-1.pdf) > so perhaps I am badly placed to pronounce, but I have seen this sort of > thing before, so can I make some points based on my general experience. > > First of all, doing something takes some effort. Although clicktivism is > possible these days (a splendid example of the tool influencing the > object), if you want to have any kind of real effect, you have to do > some heavy lifting. > > Most of us ignore Haiti, as we ignore everything else most of the time. > There is too much stuff for us to do anything else. I have done exactly > the same. I now have two pieces of evidence: the page Paul mentions, and > Paul's own impassioned reaction. > > From the page I glean one conclusion, which is that US action is > directed, as it usually seems to be, primarily towards creating profit > for US organisations, with any benefit to Haiti being a secondary > consideration. > > So it seems to me that there are two possible courses of action for a > concerned US citizen. Both are founded on doing some legwork to find out > more about Haiti's current position and needs, for which the internet > will serve as the starting point. > > The first course of action will be to identify NGOs which are working > for the benefit of the people - I have no doubt there are some - and to > support their work. > > The second is to use whatever means are at your disposal to influence > your local congress and senate representatives to redirect US policy so > that Haiti's needs become the first priority, not the second. You will > be going up against an immovable object. But nobody ever went into > politics for the short haul. > > No doubt many people here will have radically different views of the > position, and you are welcome to shoot me down. > > Rob > > On 16/01/2015 01:51, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: >> There are too many hands in the pot in haiti...NGOs, foreign governments, protestant evangelists, and the Catholic Church once again...we ask the good people of the west to tell their governments to get out of the country! Use your democratic powers to control your governments! >> >> >> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> President >> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> www.mocombeian.com >> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> www.paulcmocombe.info >> >>
-------- Original message --------
From: Annalisa Aguilar
Date:01/15/2015 8:41 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Haiti by the numbers, five years after
>>
Hi Paul, >> >> Well... thanks for calling the tool a fracking shovel. :) >> >> It doesn't mean that there are people, regardless of the Christian quotient, feel troubled by Haiti. >> >> If there were something to do that could really make a difference, we would, wouldn't we? If doing nothing is the better thing to do, OK. I was doing that already! :) >> >> Could it also be that people do not know what is happening on the ground? Is it possible to become more equitably informed? Without butting in? >> >> Looking at facts and figures don't contribute the gasoline to a theory of change, do they? >> >> I really don't know how to talk about it, but I am making an effort, even if it is awkward. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> > > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. > > From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Fri Jan 16 06:45:58 2015 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 14:45:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> , , <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> Message-ID: <1421419557891.17649@ucdenver.edu> The Polytech.Science.Art program of the Polytechnic Museum in Moscow, Russia, is dedicated to one of the most significant phenomena of contemporary culture: excluding of course, the relevancy of contemporary culture that's inclusive of the likes of, say, Pussy Riot, political dissenters, lesbians and gays, etc., etc., etc. as the beatles so prophetically sang, back to the u.s.s.r. phillip Phillip White Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or pawhite@aps.k12.co.us From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jan 16 09:15:26 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 09:15:26 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <1421419557891.17649@ucdenver.edu> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> <1421419557891.17649@ucdenver.edu> Message-ID: URL Phillip? Mike On Friday, January 16, 2015, White, Phillip wrote: > > The Polytech.Science.Art program of the Polytechnic Museum in Moscow, > Russia, is dedicated to one of the most significant phenomena of > contemporary culture: > > excluding of course, the relevancy of contemporary culture that's > inclusive of the likes of, say, Pussy Riot, political dissenters, lesbians > and gays, etc., etc., etc. > > as the beatles so prophetically sang, back to the u.s.s.r. > > phillip > > > Phillip White > Urban Community Teacher Education Program > Site Coordinator > Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO > phillip.white@ucdenver.edu > or > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jan 16 10:02:30 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 18:02:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> <1421419557891.17649@ucdenver.edu>, Message-ID: <1421431349777.92945@unm.edu> Hi all, Mike, this is the link I'd sent. https://polymus.ru/eng/ Philip, what you say that makes a lot of sense. A website is a kind of sign, or? is it a tool? On a slightly different tack, how is it that propaganda is considered in the sign/tool dichotomy? Kind regards, Annalisa From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Fri Jan 16 15:44:10 2015 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 23:44:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <1421431349777.92945@unm.edu> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> <1421419557891.17649@ucdenver.edu>, , <1421431349777.92945@unm.edu> Message-ID: <1421451850176.55008@ucdenver.edu> i think that the question about propaganda considered within sign/tool is one of incredible complexity. my guess - hazarded - is that in the end all signs and tools, since they'ed embedded with cultural beliefs, values, dispositions, experiences are political as well as a practice of propaganda - the red star of the u.s.s.r., china and macy's are not all the same cigar. phillip Phillip White Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or pawhite@aps.k12.co.us ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 11:02 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history Hi all, Mike, this is the link I'd sent. https://polymus.ru/eng/ Philip, what you say that makes a lot of sense. A website is a kind of sign, or? is it a tool? On a slightly different tack, how is it that propaganda is considered in the sign/tool dichotomy? Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jan 16 17:24:22 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 01:24:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <1421451850176.55008@ucdenver.edu> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> <1421419557891.17649@ucdenver.edu>, , <1421431349777.92945@unm.edu>,<1421451850176.55008@ucdenver.edu> Message-ID: <1421457861790.15676@unm.edu> Hi Philip, Yes, because if we go by the rubric of [sign mediates internally with the mind], and [tool mediates externally with the environment], which I do not reject by the way, then propaganda (as intended), is a tool to the one who produces it (because it is intended to influence the environment of others, and a sign for those who consume it (the intended others to be influenced). My inquiry isn't exactly upon traditionally-considered political propaganda; one could also see advertising as a type of propaganda as well. Even punishment and humiliations can be a type of propaganda, "pour encourager les autres." In a sense, propaganda is a kind of duck-rabbit. You see duck, I see rabbit, depending upon what is externally projected/internally received; nothing changes about the drawing itself, it's all perception. Is this too facile? I feel there may be problems, and appeal to the list to correct me on this. :) Thinking out loud... your mileage may vary! Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jan 16 18:46:28 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 18:46:28 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <1421457861790.15676@unm.edu> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> <1421419557891.17649@ucdenver.edu> <1421431349777.92945@unm.edu> <1421451850176.55008@ucdenver.edu> <1421457861790.15676@unm.edu> Message-ID: Oh! I see what you are discussing. The Park that used to celebrate the great achievements of the USSR on Peace Street. A really good Vygotskian analysis of the term, propaganda, would be fascinating to read. As I recall the word came into the English language from Latin and a Papal decision to "propogate the faith". Seems apt in the Soviet case. At the level of social interaction where we are professionally involved and have some presumably, useful knowledge to propagate (why else do They pay for us?), how do we think of self presentation that is NOT propagating? When teaching, this topic comes up in seeking to get students to distinguish between education and propaganda, starting with the course they are taking from me on the history of communication and with it, the history of propaganda. So what is the difference between education and propaganda. My students and I often had difficulty distinguishing them. mike On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Philip, > > Yes, because if we go by the rubric of [sign mediates internally with the > mind], and [tool mediates externally with the environment], which I do not > reject by the way, then propaganda (as intended), is a tool to the one who > produces it (because it is intended to influence the environment of others, > and a sign for those who consume it (the intended others to be influenced). > > My inquiry isn't exactly upon traditionally-considered political > propaganda; one could also see advertising as a type of propaganda as well. > Even punishment and humiliations can be a type of propaganda, "pour > encourager les autres." > > In a sense, propaganda is a kind of duck-rabbit. You see duck, I see > rabbit, depending upon what is externally projected/internally received; > nothing changes about the drawing itself, it's all perception. > > Is this too facile? I feel there may be problems, and appeal to the list > to correct me on this. :) > > Thinking out loud... your mileage may vary! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jan 16 20:18:58 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 04:18:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> <1421419557891.17649@ucdenver.edu> <1421431349777.92945@unm.edu> <1421451850176.55008@ucdenver.edu> <1421457861790.15676@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1421468336753.83191@unm.edu> Hi Mike! I am guessing that is an invitation for someone to write a Vygotskian analysis of propaganda! :) I would not mind to read it too! I'm afraid I am lost to the question of non-propagation. Why "self presentation"? Do you mean how can pedagogy happen in a "pure" form, in which the prejudices/presumptions of the teacher do not influence the student and only the lessons transmit? Is the difference between education and propaganda a degree of transparency? Don't students have the right to voice doubts in an educational environment? Whereas in a propaganda environment, it's a one-way transmission with passive recipients? Hmm? well, actually, in a propaganda environment even teachers would be passive too, methinks. :\ Kind regards, Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Fri Jan 16 20:43:41 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 15:43:41 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> <1421419557891.17649@ucdenver.edu> <1421431349777.92945@unm.edu> <1421451850176.55008@ucdenver.edu> <1421457861790.15676@unm.edu> Message-ID: <54B9E87D.8030604@mira.net> Well, in the Communist tradition, Communist Education and Communist Propaganda are taken to be quite distinct activities. Communist Education is directed at people who already count themselves as Communists, Propaganda to those who don't. Vygotsky of course worked at the Institute for Communist Education, under Krupskaya, not in the Propaganda department. The Commission do propaganda fide run out of the Vatican I think operates on the same distinction. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Oh! I see what you are discussing. The Park that used to celebrate the > great achievements of the USSR on Peace Street. > > A really good Vygotskian analysis of the term, propaganda, would be > fascinating to read. > As I recall the word came into the English language from Latin and a Papal > decision to "propogate the faith". Seems apt in the Soviet case. At the > level of social interaction where we are professionally involved and have > some presumably, useful knowledge to propagate (why else do They pay for > us?), how do we think of self presentation that is NOT propagating? > > When teaching, this topic comes up in seeking to get students to > distinguish between education and propaganda, starting with the course they > are taking from me on the history of communication and with it, the history > of propaganda. > > So what is the difference between education and propaganda. My students and > I often had difficulty distinguishing them. > > > mike > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > >> Hi Philip, >> >> Yes, because if we go by the rubric of [sign mediates internally with the >> mind], and [tool mediates externally with the environment], which I do not >> reject by the way, then propaganda (as intended), is a tool to the one who >> produces it (because it is intended to influence the environment of others, >> and a sign for those who consume it (the intended others to be influenced). >> >> My inquiry isn't exactly upon traditionally-considered political >> propaganda; one could also see advertising as a type of propaganda as well. >> Even punishment and humiliations can be a type of propaganda, "pour >> encourager les autres." >> >> In a sense, propaganda is a kind of duck-rabbit. You see duck, I see >> rabbit, depending upon what is externally projected/internally received; >> nothing changes about the drawing itself, it's all perception. >> >> Is this too facile? I feel there may be problems, and appeal to the list >> to correct me on this. :) >> >> Thinking out loud... your mileage may vary! >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Jan 16 21:29:16 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 14:29:16 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54B9E87D.8030604@mira.net> References: <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> <1421419557891.17649@ucdenver.edu> <1421431349777.92945@unm.edu> <1421451850176.55008@ucdenver.edu> <1421457861790.15676@unm.edu> <54B9E87D.8030604@mira.net> Message-ID: Plekhanov makes the distinction between agitation on the one hand and propaganda on the other. Agitation is the dissemination of a few immediately actionable ideas to a very large number of people, while propaganda is the dissemination of a whole coherent system of ideas, many of which merely serve to mediate other ideas and are not immediately actionable. I think that Plekhanov's distinction has been misread in two ways. The first is to read it as an elitist distinction between exoteric mobilization and esoteric recruitment, or, crudely put, agitation for cattle and propaganda for cadres. The second is to see it as a theoretist distinction between praxis and theory, or, crudely put, doing and believing. In both cases the missing dimension is the historical moment. There are some moments when it makes sense to disseminate Vygotsky's ideas in immediately actionable forms--e.g. labor schools during the 1920s, concept formation and the ZPD in the thirties, and in our own time, dynamic assessment, reciprocal teaching, and Anna Sfard's work on Commognition. These are moments when practical problems arise that require urgent solutions by people who do not have time to master the whole system of Vygotskyan concepts. These practical problems very often turn out to be critical ones, however; that is, practical problems that require an understanding of the problem as a moment of crisis. So there are other moments when it makes sense to disseminate Vygotsky's ideas as a whole coherent system--e.g. the complete text of Thinking and Speech (yet to be made available in a really coherent form in English), the complete text of HDHMF (ditto), and the kind of complete Vygotsky that Anton Yasnitsky and Rene Van der Veer have been working on. These are moments, such as the present moment in South Korea, when it is simply impossible to move forward with practical solutions to critical problems, and all good teachers can really hope to do for the moment is teach the non-critical moment and prepare for the crisis. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 17 January 2015 at 13:43, Andy Blunden wrote: > Well, in the Communist tradition, Communist Education and Communist > Propaganda are taken to be quite distinct activities. > Communist Education is directed at people who already count themselves as > Communists, Propaganda to those who don't. Vygotsky of course worked at the > Institute for Communist Education, under Krupskaya, not in the Propaganda > department. > The Commission do propaganda fide run out of the Vatican I think operates > on the same distinction. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: > >> Oh! I see what you are discussing. The Park that used to celebrate the >> great achievements of the USSR on Peace Street. >> >> A really good Vygotskian analysis of the term, propaganda, would be >> fascinating to read. >> As I recall the word came into the English language from Latin and a Papal >> decision to "propogate the faith". Seems apt in the Soviet case. At the >> level of social interaction where we are professionally involved and have >> some presumably, useful knowledge to propagate (why else do They pay for >> us?), how do we think of self presentation that is NOT propagating? >> >> When teaching, this topic comes up in seeking to get students to >> distinguish between education and propaganda, starting with the course >> they >> are taking from me on the history of communication and with it, the >> history >> of propaganda. >> >> So what is the difference between education and propaganda. My students >> and >> I often had difficulty distinguishing them. >> >> >> mike >> >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hi Philip, >>> >>> Yes, because if we go by the rubric of [sign mediates internally with the >>> mind], and [tool mediates externally with the environment], which I do >>> not >>> reject by the way, then propaganda (as intended), is a tool to the one >>> who >>> produces it (because it is intended to influence the environment of >>> others, >>> and a sign for those who consume it (the intended others to be >>> influenced). >>> >>> My inquiry isn't exactly upon traditionally-considered political >>> propaganda; one could also see advertising as a type of propaganda as >>> well. >>> Even punishment and humiliations can be a type of propaganda, "pour >>> encourager les autres." >>> >>> In a sense, propaganda is a kind of duck-rabbit. You see duck, I see >>> rabbit, depending upon what is externally projected/internally received; >>> nothing changes about the drawing itself, it's all perception. >>> >>> Is this too facile? I feel there may be problems, and appeal to the list >>> to correct me on this. :) >>> >>> Thinking out loud... your mileage may vary! >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Sat Jan 17 01:50:02 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 09:50:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> <1421419557891.17649@ucdenver.edu> <1421431349777.92945@unm.edu> <1421451850176.55008@ucdenver.edu> <1421457861790.15676@unm.edu> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110229205F@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Mike - is it too simplistic to say that education is about leading out (divergence) whereas propaganda is about leading in (convergence)? If you know before you begin exactly what you want your students to end up knowing and believing you may be more engaged in propaganda than education. Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: 17 January 2015 02:46 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history Oh! I see what you are discussing. The Park that used to celebrate the great achievements of the USSR on Peace Street. A really good Vygotskian analysis of the term, propaganda, would be fascinating to read. As I recall the word came into the English language from Latin and a Papal decision to "propogate the faith". Seems apt in the Soviet case. At the level of social interaction where we are professionally involved and have some presumably, useful knowledge to propagate (why else do They pay for us?), how do we think of self presentation that is NOT propagating? When teaching, this topic comes up in seeking to get students to distinguish between education and propaganda, starting with the course they are taking from me on the history of communication and with it, the history of propaganda. So what is the difference between education and propaganda. My students and I often had difficulty distinguishing them. mike On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Philip, > > Yes, because if we go by the rubric of [sign mediates internally with the > mind], and [tool mediates externally with the environment], which I do not > reject by the way, then propaganda (as intended), is a tool to the one who > produces it (because it is intended to influence the environment of others, > and a sign for those who consume it (the intended others to be influenced). > > My inquiry isn't exactly upon traditionally-considered political > propaganda; one could also see advertising as a type of propaganda as well. > Even punishment and humiliations can be a type of propaganda, "pour > encourager les autres." > > In a sense, propaganda is a kind of duck-rabbit. You see duck, I see > rabbit, depending upon what is externally projected/internally received; > nothing changes about the drawing itself, it's all perception. > > Is this too facile? I feel there may be problems, and appeal to the list > to correct me on this. :) > > Thinking out loud... your mileage may vary! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From smago@uga.edu Sat Jan 17 03:28:53 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 11:28:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54B9E87D.8030604@mira.net> References: <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> <1421419557891.17649@ucdenver.edu> <1421431349777.92945@unm.edu> <1421451850176.55008@ucdenver.edu> <1421457861790.15676@unm.edu> <54B9E87D.8030604@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy et al., I'd say that propaganda may also be used to shape the perspectives of insiders, which is how propagandists are able to gin up warmongering (Hitler most infamously, but plenty to go around). p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 11:44 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history Well, in the Communist tradition, Communist Education and Communist Propaganda are taken to be quite distinct activities. Communist Education is directed at people who already count themselves as Communists, Propaganda to those who don't. Vygotsky of course worked at the Institute for Communist Education, under Krupskaya, not in the Propaganda department. The Commission do propaganda fide run out of the Vatican I think operates on the same distinction. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Oh! I see what you are discussing. The Park that used to celebrate the > great achievements of the USSR on Peace Street. > > A really good Vygotskian analysis of the term, propaganda, would be > fascinating to read. > As I recall the word came into the English language from Latin and a Papal > decision to "propogate the faith". Seems apt in the Soviet case. At the > level of social interaction where we are professionally involved and have > some presumably, useful knowledge to propagate (why else do They pay for > us?), how do we think of self presentation that is NOT propagating? > > When teaching, this topic comes up in seeking to get students to > distinguish between education and propaganda, starting with the course they > are taking from me on the history of communication and with it, the history > of propaganda. > > So what is the difference between education and propaganda. My students and > I often had difficulty distinguishing them. > > > mike > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > >> Hi Philip, >> >> Yes, because if we go by the rubric of [sign mediates internally with the >> mind], and [tool mediates externally with the environment], which I do not >> reject by the way, then propaganda (as intended), is a tool to the one who >> produces it (because it is intended to influence the environment of others, >> and a sign for those who consume it (the intended others to be influenced). >> >> My inquiry isn't exactly upon traditionally-considered political >> propaganda; one could also see advertising as a type of propaganda as well. >> Even punishment and humiliations can be a type of propaganda, "pour >> encourager les autres." >> >> In a sense, propaganda is a kind of duck-rabbit. You see duck, I see >> rabbit, depending upon what is externally projected/internally received; >> nothing changes about the drawing itself, it's all perception. >> >> Is this too facile? I feel there may be problems, and appeal to the list >> to correct me on this. :) >> >> Thinking out loud... your mileage may vary! >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> > > > From ablunden@mira.net Sat Jan 17 05:37:15 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 00:37:15 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> Message-ID: <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> And I found the Engels he was quoting, in the Russian translation: /?????? ?????? ??????? /????? ???????????? ??? ????? ? ????? ? ???????????? ??????. The English translation says: The eternal laws of nature also become transformed more and more into historical ones. but then it goes on to say: That water is fluid from 0?-100? C. is an eternal law of nature, but for it to be valid, there must be (1) water, (2) the given temperature, (3) normal pressure. So this does NOT mean what it appeared to mean. Engels simply means "nothing remains constant" It is not saying anything about "laws of history"!! Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Thanks David -- That is certainly where I must have encountered the phrase > often enough for it to stick in my mind. And thanks to Jessica and Andy we > see versions of the idea in many places. > > Double the pleasure. > mike > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:36 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > >> Mike-- >> >> See Vol. Four of the Collected Works in English: the quote you refer to is >> the epigraph to HDHMF. It's from Dialectics of Nature, and Vygotsky keeps >> coming back to it again and again, throughout the whole text of HDHMF, >> which is one reason why I am assuming (against what Anton Yasnitsky has >> written) that HDHMF is a whole book, one of the very few that Vygotsky >> completedly completed (and also his longest work). >> > From mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu Sat Jan 17 08:30:56 2015 From: mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu (Zavala, Miguel) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 16:30:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> Message-ID: The distinction between propaganda and education is an analytic one that is useful for me as a teacher. But I also think that it's a distinction resolved not so much at the level of philosophy (theories, such as those being proposed here) but ethically. Anyone who has taught and been reflexive of her/his pedagogy will sense this distinction between the two, 'propaganda' and 'education'. There is perhaps a particular instrumentalism (as an 'ethic', such as that promulgated in 'revolutionary' struggles and in neoliberalism) that sees people as objects not as Freire would term 'historical subjects' in propaganda. I fully recognize the solipsism in all distinctions, such that some may argue that even in Freirean, participatory pedagogy the issue remains unresolved. That there is a dimension of propaganda in education (and education in propaganda). But what some have pointed out (as I read their posts) is that we also should look at these processes in larger spatial-scales. What are the collectives that give birth or make possible education and propaganda projects? Do these strive for rehumanization? How does the struggle for rehumanization remain a struggle at theoretical and practical and historical and spatial levels? How do folks draw this distinction in their own pedagogical praxis? How is the ethical conceptualized, lived, and embodied in your pedagogy? I suggest looking at it less from a theory of communication and more from an ethical one (ethics as primary, epistemology as secondary) that we might begin to re-conceptualize the very distinction between 'propaganda' and 'education'. Miguel Zavala On 1/17/15 5:37 AM, "Andy Blunden" wrote: >And I found the Engels he was quoting, in the Russian translation: > > /?????? ?????? ??????? /????? ???????????? ??? ????? ? ????? ? > ???????????? ??????. > >The English translation says: > > The eternal laws of nature also become transformed more and more > into historical ones. > >but then it goes on to say: > > That water is fluid from 0?-100? C. is an eternal law of nature, but > for it to be valid, there must be (1) water, (2) the given > temperature, (3) normal pressure. > >So this does NOT mean what it appeared to mean. Engels simply means >"nothing remains constant" It is not saying anything about "laws of >history"!! > >Andy >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >*Andy Blunden* >http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >mike cole wrote: >> Thanks David -- That is certainly where I must have encountered the >>phrase >> often enough for it to stick in my mind. And thanks to Jessica and Andy >>we >> see versions of the idea in many places. >> >> Double the pleasure. >> mike >> >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:36 PM, David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >> >>> Mike-- >>> >>> See Vol. Four of the Collected Works in English: the quote you refer >>>to is >>> the epigraph to HDHMF. It's from Dialectics of Nature, and Vygotsky >>>keeps >>> coming back to it again and again, throughout the whole text of HDHMF, >>> which is one reason why I am assuming (against what Anton Yasnitsky has >>> written) that HDHMF is a whole book, one of the very few that Vygotsky >>> completedly completed (and also his longest work). >>> >> > From jkindred@cnr.edu Sat Jan 17 08:58:28 2015 From: jkindred@cnr.edu (Kindred, Jessica Dr.) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 16:58:28 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> , <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> Message-ID: Does it mean thaqt nothing remains constant, or that everything depends on conditions... which does surely speak to history. ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 8:37 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history And I found the Engels he was quoting, in the Russian translation: /?????? ?????? ??????? /????? ???????????? ??? ????? ? ????? ? ???????????? ??????. The English translation says: The eternal laws of nature also become transformed more and more into historical ones. but then it goes on to say: That water is fluid from 0?-100? C. is an eternal law of nature, but for it to be valid, there must be (1) water, (2) the given temperature, (3) normal pressure. So this does NOT mean what it appeared to mean. Engels simply means "nothing remains constant" It is not saying anything about "laws of history"!! Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Thanks David -- That is certainly where I must have encountered the phrase > often enough for it to stick in my mind. And thanks to Jessica and Andy we > see versions of the idea in many places. > > Double the pleasure. > mike > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:36 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > >> Mike-- >> >> See Vol. Four of the Collected Works in English: the quote you refer to is >> the epigraph to HDHMF. It's from Dialectics of Nature, and Vygotsky keeps >> coming back to it again and again, throughout the whole text of HDHMF, >> which is one reason why I am assuming (against what Anton Yasnitsky has >> written) that HDHMF is a whole book, one of the very few that Vygotsky >> completedly completed (and also his longest work). >> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jan 17 09:41:48 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 09:41:48 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> Message-ID: Miguel, Thank you for this question and re-turning us to "ethical" concerns. You have reflected on the larger spatial scales. My reflections explore the other micro scale and notions of thirdness within pedagogy. This listserve has recently discussed notions of "rhythmicity" in our enactments with others. I want to bring in the psychodynamic notion of rhythmicity within thirdness by sharing Jessica Benjamin's way of moving beyond the complimentary notion of "secondness" as the dynamic of "doer and done to" Jessica is reflecting on a level of thirdness that is prior to using language which she says is missing the aspect explored by "baby watchers". She says the focus on language misses the first or founding moment, when she writes: "This [the first aspect of recognition] is the part that baby watchers have made an indelible part of our thinking. In my view of thirdness, recognition is not first constituted by verbal speech; rather it begins with the early nonverbal experience of sharing a pattern, a dance, with another person" [Beyond Doer and Done to: An Intersubjective View of Thirdness] This aspect of primal thirdness for Jessica is a nascent energetic third - as distinct from the symbolic third in the mother's mind - present in the earliest exchange of "gestures" between mother and child. Gestures are the early primary exchange which inform "baby watchers" notion of moral or ethical thirdness which implies the principle of "affective experience" or "felt experience" that IS PALPABLE. This term "palpable" expresses a particular level of felt gestures which are nonverbal but are mediated and are beyond complimentary doer and done to and preconceived propagating. Jessica argues that for the imaginal symbolic verbal third to actually "work" [the ZPD] as a true third -rather than complimentary doer and done to demands - requires the capacity for accomadation to a mutually created set of expectations [projects]. For Jessica the primal or founding form this accomodation takes or assumes is the creation of alignment with [and repair of ruptures to] the palpable patterns, the participation in connections based on affect resonance. This palpable felt experience Sanders called "rhythmicity" which Sanders considers one of two fundamental principles of all human interaction. The other principle being "specificity". Jessica argues that palpable rhythmic experience helps constitute the capacity for symbolic imaginal thirdness. Rhythmicity may be seen [and heard and felt] as a model principle UNDERLYING the creation of shared patterns that move beyond complimentary dyads of doer and done to type struggles for recognition. Miguel, to explore our ethical understandings of pedagogy that are moving beyond epistemology, do the "baby watchers" and their notions of primal nonverbal thirdness have something to offer in our explorations of Kris' notion of third space as a hybrid intersubjective space that is not doer and done to complimentarity. Growth and development seem to oscillate between already known pre-conceptions of what should be taught [the doer and the done to] and the more ethical or moral thirdness that emerges symbolically and imaginally from within a palpable felt experience of nonverbal thirdness that transcends doer and done to. This is an intersubjective understanding and is only an "aspect" of the cultural historical understanding, but it does focus our attention on the ethical or moral dimension of enactments [performative activities] This model is an extension of Winnicott's notion of "potential or transitional space" and Daniel Stern's baby watching. Larry On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Zavala, Miguel < mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu> wrote: > The distinction between propaganda and education is an analytic one that > is useful for me as a teacher. But I also think that it's a distinction > resolved not so much at the level of philosophy (theories, such as those > being proposed here) but ethically. > > Anyone who has taught and been reflexive of her/his pedagogy will sense > this distinction between the two, 'propaganda' and 'education'. There is > perhaps a particular instrumentalism (as an 'ethic', such as that > promulgated in 'revolutionary' struggles and in neoliberalism) that sees > people as objects not as Freire would term 'historical subjects' in > propaganda. > > I fully recognize the solipsism in all distinctions, such that some may > argue that even in Freirean, participatory pedagogy the issue remains > unresolved. That there is a dimension of propaganda in education (and > education in propaganda). But what some have pointed out (as I read their > posts) is that we also should look at these processes in larger > spatial-scales. What are the collectives that give birth or make possible > education and propaganda projects? Do these strive for rehumanization? > How does the struggle for rehumanization remain a struggle at theoretical > and practical and historical and spatial levels? > > How do folks draw this distinction in their own pedagogical praxis? How is > the ethical conceptualized, lived, and embodied in your pedagogy? I > suggest looking at it less from a theory of communication and more from an > ethical one (ethics as primary, epistemology as secondary) that we might > begin to re-conceptualize the very distinction between 'propaganda' and > 'education'. > > Miguel Zavala > > > On 1/17/15 5:37 AM, "Andy Blunden" wrote: > > >And I found the Engels he was quoting, in the Russian translation: > > > > /?????? ?????? ??????? /????? ???????????? ??? ????? ? ????? ? > > ???????????? ??????. > > > >The English translation says: > > > > The eternal laws of nature also become transformed more and more > > into historical ones. > > > >but then it goes on to say: > > > > That water is fluid from 0?-100? C. is an eternal law of nature, but > > for it to be valid, there must be (1) water, (2) the given > > temperature, (3) normal pressure. > > > >So this does NOT mean what it appeared to mean. Engels simply means > >"nothing remains constant" It is not saying anything about "laws of > >history"!! > > > >Andy > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >*Andy Blunden* > >http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > >mike cole wrote: > >> Thanks David -- That is certainly where I must have encountered the > >>phrase > >> often enough for it to stick in my mind. And thanks to Jessica and Andy > >>we > >> see versions of the idea in many places. > >> > >> Double the pleasure. > >> mike > >> > >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:36 PM, David Kellogg > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Mike-- > >>> > >>> See Vol. Four of the Collected Works in English: the quote you refer > >>>to is > >>> the epigraph to HDHMF. It's from Dialectics of Nature, and Vygotsky > >>>keeps > >>> coming back to it again and again, throughout the whole text of HDHMF, > >>> which is one reason why I am assuming (against what Anton Yasnitsky has > >>> written) that HDHMF is a whole book, one of the very few that Vygotsky > >>> completedly completed (and also his longest work). > >>> > >> > > > > > From smago@uga.edu Sat Jan 17 09:50:41 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 17:50:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Call for Chapter Submissions In-Reply-To: <1421516685822.3743@uga.edu> References: <1421381768517.67043@ucalgary.ca> <1421516685822.3743@uga.edu> Message-ID: Call for Chapter Submissions for book: Transcultural Flows in English Language Education in Asia -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Call for Chapter Submissions_Transcultural Flows.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 62933 bytes Desc: Call for Chapter Submissions_Transcultural Flows.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150117/5f967c50/attachment.pdf From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Jan 17 10:20:10 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 11:20:10 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A1E343C-F8F1-4260-A3E3-EE7A9C238584@gmail.com> Miguel, I have been thinking for a while that to the ethical we might add aesthetic, and that this makes pedagogy creative, not just propagative. Henry > On Jan 17, 2015, at 9:30 AM, Zavala, Miguel wrote: > > The distinction between propaganda and education is an analytic one that > is useful for me as a teacher. But I also think that it's a distinction > resolved not so much at the level of philosophy (theories, such as those > being proposed here) but ethically. > > Anyone who has taught and been reflexive of her/his pedagogy will sense > this distinction between the two, 'propaganda' and 'education'. There is > perhaps a particular instrumentalism (as an 'ethic', such as that > promulgated in 'revolutionary' struggles and in neoliberalism) that sees > people as objects not as Freire would term 'historical subjects' in > propaganda. > > I fully recognize the solipsism in all distinctions, such that some may > argue that even in Freirean, participatory pedagogy the issue remains > unresolved. That there is a dimension of propaganda in education (and > education in propaganda). But what some have pointed out (as I read their > posts) is that we also should look at these processes in larger > spatial-scales. What are the collectives that give birth or make possible > education and propaganda projects? Do these strive for rehumanization? > How does the struggle for rehumanization remain a struggle at theoretical > and practical and historical and spatial levels? > > How do folks draw this distinction in their own pedagogical praxis? How is > the ethical conceptualized, lived, and embodied in your pedagogy? I > suggest looking at it less from a theory of communication and more from an > ethical one (ethics as primary, epistemology as secondary) that we might > begin to re-conceptualize the very distinction between 'propaganda' and > 'education'. > > Miguel Zavala > > > On 1/17/15 5:37 AM, "Andy Blunden" wrote: > >> And I found the Engels he was quoting, in the Russian translation: >> >> /?????? ?????? ??????? /????? ???????????? ??? ????? ? ????? ? >> ???????????? ??????. >> >> The English translation says: >> >> The eternal laws of nature also become transformed more and more >> into historical ones. >> >> but then it goes on to say: >> >> That water is fluid from 0?-100? C. is an eternal law of nature, but >> for it to be valid, there must be (1) water, (2) the given >> temperature, (3) normal pressure. >> >> So this does NOT mean what it appeared to mean. Engels simply means >> "nothing remains constant" It is not saying anything about "laws of >> history"!! >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >>> Thanks David -- That is certainly where I must have encountered the >>> phrase >>> often enough for it to stick in my mind. And thanks to Jessica and Andy >>> we >>> see versions of the idea in many places. >>> >>> Double the pleasure. >>> mike >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:36 PM, David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Mike-- >>>> >>>> See Vol. Four of the Collected Works in English: the quote you refer >>>> to is >>>> the epigraph to HDHMF. It's from Dialectics of Nature, and Vygotsky >>>> keeps >>>> coming back to it again and again, throughout the whole text of HDHMF, >>>> which is one reason why I am assuming (against what Anton Yasnitsky has >>>> written) that HDHMF is a whole book, one of the very few that Vygotsky >>>> completedly completed (and also his longest work). >>>> >>> >> > > From mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu Sat Jan 17 10:26:05 2015 From: mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu (Zavala, Miguel) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 18:26:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Larry, Thank you for your thoughts and synthesis of complex ideas. An exploration of the ethical relation to the other is what I've been revisiting; it is in the work of Enrique Dussel and others that you synthesized in a beautiful way in a previous post. While Dussel provides a philosophical exploration I like the way you enflesh those ideas. Indeed, the ethical is embodied. The rhythms of the body (as enacted gesture) flow. My sense is that the intersubjective 'moment' (in a dialectical sense) in the work of Kris and others is in relation to the 'object' in a given activity system. Thus, we might say or as others have noted that there is a struggle for intersubjectivity (with or without agreement, etc.). But there is a particular kind of centering of the object-world here, a privileging of sight (seeing, and reasoning), such that how we come to the 'other' is vis-a-vis this 'object'. This strain is in the work of Paulo Freire, too. The subject-object relation, this analytic kernel so important to CHAT, may be accompanied by a yet parallel, intersecting relation, subject-subject that is not mediated by object. Herein we enter a distinct kind of way of seeing 'history' as multiple and situated geographically in places. I believe that is why in the Popol Vuh, Mayan sacred text, in the beginning there is sound. In other traditions light is seen as primary. Yet, this marks a key distinction, between listening (as in sound) and seeing (as in light). The child re-teaches us to be, rehumanizes us and grounds us in ways felt as we listen (I as a father have some distance to this initial becoming, given I do not carry the child). I speak from person experience as a father in this reflection. It is this spiritual space of connection and a way of being that truly (materially and symbolically and in any other way we want to carve being-in-the-world) that transforms us into being-in-relation-to-others. Miguel On 1/17/15 9:41 AM, "Larry Purss" wrote: >Miguel, >Thank you for this question and re-turning us to "ethical" concerns. You >have reflected on the larger spatial scales. My reflections explore the >other micro scale and notions of thirdness within pedagogy. This listserve >has recently discussed notions of "rhythmicity" in our enactments with >others. I want to bring in the psychodynamic notion of rhythmicity within >thirdness by sharing Jessica Benjamin's way of moving beyond the >complimentary notion of "secondness" as the dynamic of "doer and done to" > >Jessica is reflecting on a level of thirdness that is prior to using >language which she says is missing the aspect explored by "baby watchers". >She says the focus on language misses the first or founding moment, when >she writes: > > "This [the first aspect of recognition] is the part that baby watchers >have made an indelible part of our thinking. In my view of thirdness, >recognition is not first constituted by verbal speech; rather it begins >with the early nonverbal experience of sharing a pattern, a dance, with >another person" [Beyond Doer and Done to: An Intersubjective View of >Thirdness] > >This aspect of primal thirdness for Jessica is a nascent energetic third - >as distinct from the symbolic third in the mother's mind - present in the >earliest exchange of "gestures" between mother and child. Gestures are >the >early primary exchange which inform "baby watchers" notion of moral or >ethical thirdness which implies the principle of "affective experience" or >"felt experience" that IS PALPABLE. This term "palpable" expresses a >particular level of felt gestures which are nonverbal but are mediated >and >are beyond complimentary doer and done to and preconceived propagating. >Jessica argues that for the imaginal symbolic verbal third to actually >"work" [the ZPD] as a true third -rather than complimentary doer and done >to demands - requires the capacity for accomadation to a mutually created >set of expectations [projects]. For Jessica the primal or founding form >this accomodation takes or assumes is the creation of alignment with [and >repair of ruptures to] the palpable patterns, the participation >in connections based on affect resonance. > >This palpable felt experience Sanders called "rhythmicity" which Sanders >considers one of two fundamental principles of all human interaction. The >other principle being "specificity". > >Jessica argues that palpable rhythmic experience helps constitute the >capacity for symbolic imaginal thirdness. Rhythmicity may be seen [and >heard and felt] as a model principle UNDERLYING the creation of shared >patterns that move beyond complimentary dyads of doer and done to type >struggles for recognition. > >Miguel, to explore our ethical understandings of pedagogy that are moving >beyond epistemology, do the "baby watchers" and their notions of >primal nonverbal thirdness have something to offer in our explorations of >Kris' notion of third space as a hybrid intersubjective space that is not >doer and done to complimentarity. >Growth and development seem to oscillate between already known >pre-conceptions of what should be taught [the doer and the done to] and >the >more ethical or moral thirdness that emerges symbolically and imaginally >from within a palpable felt experience of nonverbal thirdness that >transcends doer and done to. >This is an intersubjective understanding and is only an "aspect" of the >cultural historical understanding, but it does focus our attention on the >ethical or moral dimension of enactments [performative activities] This >model is an extension of Winnicott's notion of "potential or transitional >space" and Daniel Stern's baby watching. > >Larry > >On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Zavala, Miguel < >mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu> wrote: > >> The distinction between propaganda and education is an analytic one that >> is useful for me as a teacher. But I also think that it's a distinction >> resolved not so much at the level of philosophy (theories, such as those >> being proposed here) but ethically. >> >> Anyone who has taught and been reflexive of her/his pedagogy will sense >> this distinction between the two, 'propaganda' and 'education'. There >>is >> perhaps a particular instrumentalism (as an 'ethic', such as that >> promulgated in 'revolutionary' struggles and in neoliberalism) that sees >> people as objects not as Freire would term 'historical subjects' in >> propaganda. >> >> I fully recognize the solipsism in all distinctions, such that some may >> argue that even in Freirean, participatory pedagogy the issue remains >> unresolved. That there is a dimension of propaganda in education (and >> education in propaganda). But what some have pointed out (as I read >>their >> posts) is that we also should look at these processes in larger >> spatial-scales. What are the collectives that give birth or make >>possible >> education and propaganda projects? Do these strive for rehumanization? >> How does the struggle for rehumanization remain a struggle at >>theoretical >> and practical and historical and spatial levels? >> >> How do folks draw this distinction in their own pedagogical praxis? How >>is >> the ethical conceptualized, lived, and embodied in your pedagogy? I >> suggest looking at it less from a theory of communication and more from >>an >> ethical one (ethics as primary, epistemology as secondary) that we might >> begin to re-conceptualize the very distinction between 'propaganda' and >> 'education'. >> >> Miguel Zavala >> >> >> On 1/17/15 5:37 AM, "Andy Blunden" wrote: >> >> >And I found the Engels he was quoting, in the Russian translation: >> > >> > /?????? ?????? ??????? /????? ???????????? ??? ????? ? ????? ? >> > ???????????? ??????. >> > >> >The English translation says: >> > >> > The eternal laws of nature also become transformed more and more >> > into historical ones. >> > >> >but then it goes on to say: >> > >> > That water is fluid from 0?-100? C. is an eternal law of nature, >>but >> > for it to be valid, there must be (1) water, (2) the given >> > temperature, (3) normal pressure. >> > >> >So this does NOT mean what it appeared to mean. Engels simply means >> >"nothing remains constant" It is not saying anything about "laws of >> >history"!! >> > >> >Andy >> >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >*Andy Blunden* >> >http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> > >> > >> >mike cole wrote: >> >> Thanks David -- That is certainly where I must have encountered the >> >>phrase >> >> often enough for it to stick in my mind. And thanks to Jessica and >>Andy >> >>we >> >> see versions of the idea in many places. >> >> >> >> Double the pleasure. >> >> mike >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:36 PM, David Kellogg >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> Mike-- >> >>> >> >>> See Vol. Four of the Collected Works in English: the quote you refer >> >>>to is >> >>> the epigraph to HDHMF. It's from Dialectics of Nature, and Vygotsky >> >>>keeps >> >>> coming back to it again and again, throughout the whole text of >>HDHMF, >> >>> which is one reason why I am assuming (against what Anton Yasnitsky >>has >> >>> written) that HDHMF is a whole book, one of the very few that >>Vygotsky >> >>> completedly completed (and also his longest work). >> >>> >> >> >> > >> >> >> From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Jan 17 10:29:55 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 11:29:55 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110229205F@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> <1421419557891.17649@ucdenver.edu> <1421431349777.92945@unm.edu> <1421451850176.55008@ucdenver.edu> <1421457861790.15676@unm.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110229205F@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <13E17D81-91CA-400F-A52E-531DBF685BA3@gmail.com> Rod, A rule of thumb in teaching is that before you start teaching something new you find out what the students already know about a topic. One way to do that is to ask ?grand tour? questions. Divergent questions, accepting anything students know, or think they know. Convergent, or ?leading questions? are meant to direct students to the ?right? answers. The point is that good teaching is built around questions and dialog. For a long time I have felt that I learn the most from students who push back, who question the curriculum. That isn?t comfortable. Henry > On Jan 17, 2015, at 2:50 AM, Rod Parker-Rees wrote: > > Mike - is it too simplistic to say that education is about leading out (divergence) whereas propaganda is about leading in (convergence)? If you know before you begin exactly what you want your students to end up knowing and believing you may be more engaged in propaganda than education. > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: 17 January 2015 02:46 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Oh! I see what you are discussing. The Park that used to celebrate the > great achievements of the USSR on Peace Street. > > A really good Vygotskian analysis of the term, propaganda, would be > fascinating to read. > As I recall the word came into the English language from Latin and a Papal > decision to "propogate the faith". Seems apt in the Soviet case. At the > level of social interaction where we are professionally involved and have > some presumably, useful knowledge to propagate (why else do They pay for > us?), how do we think of self presentation that is NOT propagating? > > When teaching, this topic comes up in seeking to get students to > distinguish between education and propaganda, starting with the course they > are taking from me on the history of communication and with it, the history > of propaganda. > > So what is the difference between education and propaganda. My students and > I often had difficulty distinguishing them. > > > mike > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> Hi Philip, >> >> Yes, because if we go by the rubric of [sign mediates internally with the >> mind], and [tool mediates externally with the environment], which I do not >> reject by the way, then propaganda (as intended), is a tool to the one who >> produces it (because it is intended to influence the environment of others, >> and a sign for those who consume it (the intended others to be influenced). >> >> My inquiry isn't exactly upon traditionally-considered political >> propaganda; one could also see advertising as a type of propaganda as well. >> Even punishment and humiliations can be a type of propaganda, "pour >> encourager les autres." >> >> In a sense, propaganda is a kind of duck-rabbit. You see duck, I see >> rabbit, depending upon what is externally projected/internally received; >> nothing changes about the drawing itself, it's all perception. >> >> Is this too facile? I feel there may be problems, and appeal to the list >> to correct me on this. :) >> >> Thinking out loud... your mileage may vary! >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Sat Jan 17 10:51:34 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 18:51:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <13E17D81-91CA-400F-A52E-531DBF685BA3@gmail.com> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> <1421419557891.17649@ucdenver.edu> <1421431349777.92945@unm.edu> <1421451850176.55008@ucdenver.edu> <1421457861790.15676@unm.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110229205F@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <13E17D81-91CA-400F-A52E-531DBF685BA3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292109@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Henry, Yes indeed, my first ever, hand-written overhead transparency when I moved from teaching 4-5 year olds to teaching undergraduate students was from David Ausubel 'If I had to reduce all of educational psychology to just one principle, I would say this: the most important single factor influencing learning is what the learner already knows. Ascertain this and teach him accordingly.' (Ausubel, Novak, & Hanesian, 1978, pp. iv & 163) Over the past 20+ years what has changed enormously is my own understanding of what is meant by 'what the learner already knows' - now much more focused on attitudes and dispositions than on declarative, explicit knowledge. Creating the conditions in which students feel comfortable about pushing back, when this is often not what their secondary education has prepared them for, is still a challenge. I couldn't agree more, though, with your comment about learning most from students who do help to create a real dialogue. Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: 17 January 2015 18:30 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history Rod, A rule of thumb in teaching is that before you start teaching something new you find out what the students already know about a topic. One way to do that is to ask ?grand tour? questions. Divergent questions, accepting anything students know, or think they know. Convergent, or ?leading questions? are meant to direct students to the ?right? answers. The point is that good teaching is built around questions and dialog. For a long time I have felt that I learn the most from students who push back, who question the curriculum. That isn?t comfortable. Henry > On Jan 17, 2015, at 2:50 AM, Rod Parker-Rees wrote: > > Mike - is it too simplistic to say that education is about leading out (divergence) whereas propaganda is about leading in (convergence)? If you know before you begin exactly what you want your students to end up knowing and believing you may be more engaged in propaganda than education. > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: 17 January 2015 02:46 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Oh! I see what you are discussing. The Park that used to celebrate the > great achievements of the USSR on Peace Street. > > A really good Vygotskian analysis of the term, propaganda, would be > fascinating to read. > As I recall the word came into the English language from Latin and a > Papal decision to "propogate the faith". Seems apt in the Soviet case. > At the level of social interaction where we are professionally > involved and have some presumably, useful knowledge to propagate (why > else do They pay for us?), how do we think of self presentation that is NOT propagating? > > When teaching, this topic comes up in seeking to get students to > distinguish between education and propaganda, starting with the course > they are taking from me on the history of communication and with it, > the history of propaganda. > > So what is the difference between education and propaganda. My > students and I often had difficulty distinguishing them. > > > mike > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> Hi Philip, >> >> Yes, because if we go by the rubric of [sign mediates internally with >> the mind], and [tool mediates externally with the environment], which >> I do not reject by the way, then propaganda (as intended), is a tool >> to the one who produces it (because it is intended to influence the >> environment of others, and a sign for those who consume it (the intended others to be influenced). >> >> My inquiry isn't exactly upon traditionally-considered political >> propaganda; one could also see advertising as a type of propaganda as well. >> Even punishment and humiliations can be a type of propaganda, "pour >> encourager les autres." >> >> In a sense, propaganda is a kind of duck-rabbit. You see duck, I see >> rabbit, depending upon what is externally projected/internally >> received; nothing changes about the drawing itself, it's all perception. >> >> Is this too facile? I feel there may be problems, and appeal to the >> list to correct me on this. :) >> >> Thinking out loud... your mileage may vary! >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] h.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Sat Jan 17 11:16:09 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 19:16:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292122@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Larry, As a fascinated 'baby watcher' I am grateful to you for bringing Jessica Benjamin's work to my attention. While I find her article, I wonder if you could comment on how her identification of primal thirdness relates to the concept of the 'Ur Wir' or 'Primal We' which Vygotsky refers to as the initial condition of the infant and mother/caregiver. I am more and more convinced that a baby's first experiences are of the quality of the interaction between its body and the body of its caregiver - an embodied attunement which is much more readily perceived than either the separate subjectivities of the baby or the mother. I think this 'palpable' sense of being 'liked' by someone who adjusts their movements to your own is an example of the rhythmicity you have referred to but we are brought up in a culture which foregrounds objects rather than actions so the interaction, instead of being primal - the first form of experience, is described as 'third', a consequence of the actions of the first and second rather than the water which allows them to swim. Another consequence of our culture (experienced with particular intensity in early education) is our fixation on spoken language as THE form of communication. In the UK our 'Early Years Foundation Stage' guidance for early years professionals working with children from birth to five has a 'Prime Area of Learning' called 'Communication and Language' which has nothing to say about any form of communication other than language! The tacit processes involved in 'getting to know' someone are almost entirely overlooked but I think these aspects of communication play a very important role in the ethical function of communication (awareness of how our actions can be expected to affect others and willingness to repair miscommunications). One benefit of 'baby watching' and of thinking about what learning is like for babies is that it forces us to consider forms of learning (and especially forms of social learning) which are NOT grounded in the concept-y ways of thinking which we tend to take for granted. Judy Dunn's lovely study of two-year olds at home (back in the 80s) showed very clearly how the social capability of these young children was heavily dependent on familiar (family) contexts. They were able to join in with family social activities WELL before they were able to 'understand' or 'explain' what was going on because the familiar practice of domestic routines provided a ZPD which allowed them to anticipate what 'their' people could be expected to do and how they could be expected to react. By joining in (without understanding but with loving support) they had opportunities to arrive at their own understanding. The CONTEXT of familiar patterns of activity could be seen as a kind of thirdness but a primary kind! All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss Sent: 17 January 2015 17:42 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history Miguel, Thank you for this question and re-turning us to "ethical" concerns. You have reflected on the larger spatial scales. My reflections explore the other micro scale and notions of thirdness within pedagogy. This listserve has recently discussed notions of "rhythmicity" in our enactments with others. I want to bring in the psychodynamic notion of rhythmicity within thirdness by sharing Jessica Benjamin's way of moving beyond the complimentary notion of "secondness" as the dynamic of "doer and done to" Jessica is reflecting on a level of thirdness that is prior to using language which she says is missing the aspect explored by "baby watchers". She says the focus on language misses the first or founding moment, when she writes: "This [the first aspect of recognition] is the part that baby watchers have made an indelible part of our thinking. In my view of thirdness, recognition is not first constituted by verbal speech; rather it begins with the early nonverbal experience of sharing a pattern, a dance, with another person" [Beyond Doer and Done to: An Intersubjective View of Thirdness] This aspect of primal thirdness for Jessica is a nascent energetic third - as distinct from the symbolic third in the mother's mind - present in the earliest exchange of "gestures" between mother and child. Gestures are the early primary exchange which inform "baby watchers" notion of moral or ethical thirdness which implies the principle of "affective experience" or "felt experience" that IS PALPABLE. This term "palpable" expresses a particular level of felt gestures which are nonverbal but are mediated and are beyond complimentary doer and done to and preconceived propagating. Jessica argues that for the imaginal symbolic verbal third to actually "work" [the ZPD] as a true third -rather than complimentary doer and done to demands - requires the capacity for accomadation to a mutually created set of expectations [projects]. For Jessica the primal or founding form this accomodation takes or assumes is the creation of alignment with [and repair of ruptures to] the palpable patterns, the participation in connections based on affect resonance. This palpable felt experience Sanders called "rhythmicity" which Sanders considers one of two fundamental principles of all human interaction. The other principle being "specificity". Jessica argues that palpable rhythmic experience helps constitute the capacity for symbolic imaginal thirdness. Rhythmicity may be seen [and heard and felt] as a model principle UNDERLYING the creation of shared patterns that move beyond complimentary dyads of doer and done to type struggles for recognition. Miguel, to explore our ethical understandings of pedagogy that are moving beyond epistemology, do the "baby watchers" and their notions of primal nonverbal thirdness have something to offer in our explorations of Kris' notion of third space as a hybrid intersubjective space that is not doer and done to complimentarity. Growth and development seem to oscillate between already known pre-conceptions of what should be taught [the doer and the done to] and the more ethical or moral thirdness that emerges symbolically and imaginally from within a palpable felt experience of nonverbal thirdness that transcends doer and done to. This is an intersubjective understanding and is only an "aspect" of the cultural historical understanding, but it does focus our attention on the ethical or moral dimension of enactments [performative activities] This model is an extension of Winnicott's notion of "potential or transitional space" and Daniel Stern's baby watching. Larry On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Zavala, Miguel < mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu> wrote: > The distinction between propaganda and education is an analytic one > that is useful for me as a teacher. But I also think that it's a > distinction resolved not so much at the level of philosophy (theories, > such as those being proposed here) but ethically. > > Anyone who has taught and been reflexive of her/his pedagogy will > sense this distinction between the two, 'propaganda' and 'education'. > There is perhaps a particular instrumentalism (as an 'ethic', such as > that promulgated in 'revolutionary' struggles and in neoliberalism) > that sees people as objects not as Freire would term 'historical > subjects' in propaganda. > > I fully recognize the solipsism in all distinctions, such that some > may argue that even in Freirean, participatory pedagogy the issue > remains unresolved. That there is a dimension of propaganda in > education (and education in propaganda). But what some have pointed > out (as I read their > posts) is that we also should look at these processes in larger > spatial-scales. What are the collectives that give birth or make > possible education and propaganda projects? Do these strive for rehumanization? > How does the struggle for rehumanization remain a struggle at > theoretical and practical and historical and spatial levels? > > How do folks draw this distinction in their own pedagogical praxis? > How is the ethical conceptualized, lived, and embodied in your > pedagogy? I suggest looking at it less from a theory of communication > and more from an ethical one (ethics as primary, epistemology as > secondary) that we might begin to re-conceptualize the very > distinction between 'propaganda' and 'education'. > > Miguel Zavala > > > On 1/17/15 5:37 AM, "Andy Blunden" wrote: > > >And I found the Engels he was quoting, in the Russian translation: > > > > /?????? ?????? ??????? /????? ???????????? ??? ????? ? ????? ? > > ???????????? ??????. > > > >The English translation says: > > > > The eternal laws of nature also become transformed more and more > > into historical ones. > > > >but then it goes on to say: > > > > That water is fluid from 0?-100? C. is an eternal law of nature, but > > for it to be valid, there must be (1) water, (2) the given > > temperature, (3) normal pressure. > > > >So this does NOT mean what it appeared to mean. Engels simply means > >"nothing remains constant" It is not saying anything about "laws of > >history"!! > > > >Andy > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >--- > >*Andy Blunden* > >http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > >mike cole wrote: > >> Thanks David -- That is certainly where I must have encountered the > >>phrase often enough for it to stick in my mind. And thanks to > >>Jessica and Andy we see versions of the idea in many places. > >> > >> Double the pleasure. > >> mike > >> > >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:36 PM, David Kellogg > >> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Mike-- > >>> > >>> See Vol. Four of the Collected Works in English: the quote you > >>>refer to is the epigraph to HDHMF. It's from Dialectics of Nature, > >>>and Vygotsky keeps coming back to it again and again, throughout > >>>the whole text of HDHMF, which is one reason why I am assuming > >>>(against what Anton Yasnitsky has > >>> written) that HDHMF is a whole book, one of the very few that > >>>Vygotsky completedly completed (and also his longest work). > >>> > >> > > > > > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jan 17 13:03:19 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 13:03:19 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Thirdness and its various versions Message-ID: Miguel, Rod, I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that contrast with "twoness" [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and learner, etc.] Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby watcher's I was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language in his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow Atwood, and Donna Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as bothDaniel Stern and Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. In Jessica's words: "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that require mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a pleasure and not a chore" Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and rhythmicity] are felt to be in sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to understanding we may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt experience. Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" Her project is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for expressing this struggle for recognition. She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for recognition is through a developmental trajectory of intersubjective development of thirdness. Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as this analytic kernel is one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" [with the mind's eye?]. Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures to another dimension, another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. I would like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your notion of "intersecting" multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across verses] truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of learning [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the children were able to join in WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able to explain what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or "context" in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and historically situated. What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are indicating is the centrality of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y and institutionalized and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" AS potentially liberating contexts. Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in understanding the notion of "recognition". As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and done to or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" within thirdness. THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jan 17 13:16:27 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 13:16:27 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110229205F@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> <1421419557891.17649@ucdenver.edu> <1421431349777.92945@unm.edu> <1421451850176.55008@ucdenver.edu> <1421457861790.15676@unm.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110229205F@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Rod-- I am flumuxed by your message: Here is what I wrote: Oh! I see what you are discussing. The Park that used to celebrate the great achievements of the USSR on Peace Street. A really good Vygotskian analysis of the term, propaganda, would be fascinating to read. As I recall the word came into the English language from Latin and a Papal decision to "propogate the faith". Seems apt in the Soviet case. At the level of social interaction where we are professionally involved and have some presumably, useful knowledge to propagate (why else do They pay for us?), how do we think of self presentation that is NOT propagating? When teaching, this topic comes up in seeking to get students to distinguish between education and propaganda, starting with the course they are taking from me on the history of communication and with it, the history of propaganda. So what is the difference between education and propaganda. My students and I often had difficulty distinguishing them. --------------------- I really do not know what you mean. Sorry to be dense. mike On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:50 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > Mike - is it too simplistic to say that education is about leading out > (divergence) whereas propaganda is about leading in (convergence)? If you > know before you begin exactly what you want your students to end up knowing > and believing you may be more engaged in propaganda than education. > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: 17 January 2015 02:46 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Oh! I see what you are discussing. The Park that used to celebrate the > great achievements of the USSR on Peace Street. > > A really good Vygotskian analysis of the term, propaganda, would be > fascinating to read. > As I recall the word came into the English language from Latin and a Papal > decision to "propogate the faith". Seems apt in the Soviet case. At the > level of social interaction where we are professionally involved and have > some presumably, useful knowledge to propagate (why else do They pay for > us?), how do we think of self presentation that is NOT propagating? > > When teaching, this topic comes up in seeking to get students to > distinguish between education and propaganda, starting with the course they > are taking from me on the history of communication and with it, the history > of propaganda. > > So what is the difference between education and propaganda. My students and > I often had difficulty distinguishing them. > > > mike > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > Hi Philip, > > > > Yes, because if we go by the rubric of [sign mediates internally with the > > mind], and [tool mediates externally with the environment], which I do > not > > reject by the way, then propaganda (as intended), is a tool to the one > who > > produces it (because it is intended to influence the environment of > others, > > and a sign for those who consume it (the intended others to be > influenced). > > > > My inquiry isn't exactly upon traditionally-considered political > > propaganda; one could also see advertising as a type of propaganda as > well. > > Even punishment and humiliations can be a type of propaganda, "pour > > encourager les autres." > > > > In a sense, propaganda is a kind of duck-rabbit. You see duck, I see > > rabbit, depending upon what is externally projected/internally received; > > nothing changes about the drawing itself, it's all perception. > > > > Is this too facile? I feel there may be problems, and appeal to the list > > to correct me on this. :) > > > > Thinking out loud... your mileage may vary! > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jan 17 13:25:39 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 13:25:39 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292109@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> <1421419557891.17649@ucdenver.edu> <1421431349777.92945@unm.edu> <1421451850176.55008@ucdenver.edu> <1421457861790.15676@unm.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110229205F@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <13E17D81-91CA-400F-A52E-531DBF685BA3@gmail.com> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292109@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Rod-- I am in strong agreement with the sentiments in this note, which makes me think the other is perhaps really responding to someone else on the thread-- I am barely keeping up. Yes, in a world where human psychological processes are assumed to be distributed, specifying "what the learner knows" (start where the child is) becomes a lot more complicated . In my own teaching experience, the richest educational experiences occur in practicum courses where the students are part of a team doing something that matters, is uncertain, and never perfect.... and then talking about it through texts with a history of value as thinking tools. The good part about large lecture halls is the requirement to be systematic, legible, and interesting, but it is a terrible place for real dialogue. mike On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > Henry, > > Yes indeed, my first ever, hand-written overhead transparency when I moved > from teaching 4-5 year olds to teaching undergraduate students was from > David Ausubel > > 'If I had to reduce all of educational psychology to just one principle, I > would say this: the most important single factor influencing learning is > what the learner already knows. Ascertain this and teach him accordingly.' > (Ausubel, Novak, & Hanesian, 1978, pp. iv & 163) > > Over the past 20+ years what has changed enormously is my own > understanding of what is meant by 'what the learner already knows' - now > much more focused on attitudes and dispositions than on declarative, > explicit knowledge. Creating the conditions in which students feel > comfortable about pushing back, when this is often not what their secondary > education has prepared them for, is still a challenge. I couldn't agree > more, though, with your comment about learning most from students who do > help to create a real dialogue. > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: 17 January 2015 18:30 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Rod, > A rule of thumb in teaching is that before you start teaching something > new you find out what the students already know about a topic. One way to > do that is to ask ?grand tour? questions. Divergent questions, accepting > anything students know, or think they know. Convergent, or ?leading > questions? are meant to direct students to the ?right? answers. The point > is that good teaching is built around questions and dialog. For a long time > I have felt that I learn the most from students who push back, who question > the curriculum. That isn?t comfortable. > Henry > > > On Jan 17, 2015, at 2:50 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > Mike - is it too simplistic to say that education is about leading out > (divergence) whereas propaganda is about leading in (convergence)? If you > know before you begin exactly what you want your students to end up knowing > and believing you may be more engaged in propaganda than education. > > > > Rod > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > > Sent: 17 January 2015 02:46 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > > > Oh! I see what you are discussing. The Park that used to celebrate the > > great achievements of the USSR on Peace Street. > > > > A really good Vygotskian analysis of the term, propaganda, would be > > fascinating to read. > > As I recall the word came into the English language from Latin and a > > Papal decision to "propogate the faith". Seems apt in the Soviet case. > > At the level of social interaction where we are professionally > > involved and have some presumably, useful knowledge to propagate (why > > else do They pay for us?), how do we think of self presentation that is > NOT propagating? > > > > When teaching, this topic comes up in seeking to get students to > > distinguish between education and propaganda, starting with the course > > they are taking from me on the history of communication and with it, > > the history of propaganda. > > > > So what is the difference between education and propaganda. My > > students and I often had difficulty distinguishing them. > > > > > > mike > > > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > >> Hi Philip, > >> > >> Yes, because if we go by the rubric of [sign mediates internally with > >> the mind], and [tool mediates externally with the environment], which > >> I do not reject by the way, then propaganda (as intended), is a tool > >> to the one who produces it (because it is intended to influence the > >> environment of others, and a sign for those who consume it (the > intended others to be influenced). > >> > >> My inquiry isn't exactly upon traditionally-considered political > >> propaganda; one could also see advertising as a type of propaganda as > well. > >> Even punishment and humiliations can be a type of propaganda, "pour > >> encourager les autres." > >> > >> In a sense, propaganda is a kind of duck-rabbit. You see duck, I see > >> rabbit, depending upon what is externally projected/internally > >> received; nothing changes about the drawing itself, it's all perception. > >> > >> Is this too facile? I feel there may be problems, and appeal to the > >> list to correct me on this. :) > >> > >> Thinking out loud... your mileage may vary! > >> > >> Kind regards, > >> > >> Annalisa > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > ________________________________ > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] > h.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > > > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Sat Jan 17 13:26:36 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 21:26:36 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> <1421419557891.17649@ucdenver.edu> <1421431349777.92945@unm.edu> <1421451850176.55008@ucdenver.edu> <1421457861790.15676@unm.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110229205F@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292151@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Hi Mike, I was responding to your question, 'what is the difference between education and propaganda ...?' with the probably oversimplistic suggestion that whereas propaganda is about propagating (reproducing) an existing set of beliefs/knowledge - evangelising the Catholic faith, for example - education may (should?) be more about encouraging people to go beyond what you already know. The 'you' in my message is not Mike Cole but a generic you! All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: 17 January 2015 21:16 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history Rod-- I am flumuxed by your message: Here is what I wrote: Oh! I see what you are discussing. The Park that used to celebrate the great achievements of the USSR on Peace Street. A really good Vygotskian analysis of the term, propaganda, would be fascinating to read. As I recall the word came into the English language from Latin and a Papal decision to "propogate the faith". Seems apt in the Soviet case. At the level of social interaction where we are professionally involved and have some presumably, useful knowledge to propagate (why else do They pay for us?), how do we think of self presentation that is NOT propagating? When teaching, this topic comes up in seeking to get students to distinguish between education and propaganda, starting with the course they are taking from me on the history of communication and with it, the history of propaganda. So what is the difference between education and propaganda. My students and I often had difficulty distinguishing them. --------------------- I really do not know what you mean. Sorry to be dense. mike On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:50 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > Mike - is it too simplistic to say that education is about leading out > (divergence) whereas propaganda is about leading in (convergence)? If > you know before you begin exactly what you want your students to end > up knowing and believing you may be more engaged in propaganda than education. > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: 17 January 2015 02:46 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Oh! I see what you are discussing. The Park that used to celebrate the > great achievements of the USSR on Peace Street. > > A really good Vygotskian analysis of the term, propaganda, would be > fascinating to read. > As I recall the word came into the English language from Latin and a > Papal decision to "propogate the faith". Seems apt in the Soviet case. > At the level of social interaction where we are professionally > involved and have some presumably, useful knowledge to propagate (why > else do They pay for us?), how do we think of self presentation that is NOT propagating? > > When teaching, this topic comes up in seeking to get students to > distinguish between education and propaganda, starting with the course > they are taking from me on the history of communication and with it, > the history of propaganda. > > So what is the difference between education and propaganda. My > students and I often had difficulty distinguishing them. > > > mike > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > Hi Philip, > > > > Yes, because if we go by the rubric of [sign mediates internally > > with the mind], and [tool mediates externally with the environment], > > which I do > not > > reject by the way, then propaganda (as intended), is a tool to the > > one > who > > produces it (because it is intended to influence the environment of > others, > > and a sign for those who consume it (the intended others to be > influenced). > > > > My inquiry isn't exactly upon traditionally-considered political > > propaganda; one could also see advertising as a type of propaganda > > as > well. > > Even punishment and humiliations can be a type of propaganda, "pour > > encourager les autres." > > > > In a sense, propaganda is a kind of duck-rabbit. You see duck, I see > > rabbit, depending upon what is externally projected/internally > > received; nothing changes about the drawing itself, it's all perception. > > > > Is this too facile? I feel there may be problems, and appeal to the > > list to correct me on this. :) > > > > Thinking out loud... your mileage may vary! > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not > the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to > scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this > email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services > unless accompanied by an official order form. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jan 17 13:28:51 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 13:28:51 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292122@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292122@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Rod or Larry--- I have missed relevant material, clearly. But might I intervene in this exchange briefly to ask for a page reference for Vygotsky's discussion of the Primal We? Fits in with ongoing work that faces a looming deadline, and that information would be enormously helpful. Sure a lot to discuss in those notes. Thanks. I will try to engage properly AFTER finish the deadline task. I am still back imagining I will have time to pose a question about the imagination thread! mike On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > Larry, > > As a fascinated 'baby watcher' I am grateful to you for bringing Jessica > Benjamin's work to my attention. While I find her article, I wonder if you > could comment on how her identification of primal thirdness relates to the > concept of the 'Ur Wir' or 'Primal We' which Vygotsky refers to as the > initial condition of the infant and mother/caregiver. I am more and more > convinced that a baby's first experiences are of the quality of the > interaction between its body and the body of its caregiver - an embodied > attunement which is much more readily perceived than either the separate > subjectivities of the baby or the mother. > > I think this 'palpable' sense of being 'liked' by someone who adjusts > their movements to your own is an example of the rhythmicity you have > referred to but we are brought up in a culture which foregrounds objects > rather than actions so the interaction, instead of being primal - the first > form of experience, is described as 'third', a consequence of the actions > of the first and second rather than the water which allows them to swim. > > Another consequence of our culture (experienced with particular intensity > in early education) is our fixation on spoken language as THE form of > communication. In the UK our 'Early Years Foundation Stage' guidance for > early years professionals working with children from birth to five has a > 'Prime Area of Learning' called 'Communication and Language' which has > nothing to say about any form of communication other than language! The > tacit processes involved in 'getting to know' someone are almost entirely > overlooked but I think these aspects of communication play a very important > role in the ethical function of communication (awareness of how our actions > can be expected to affect others and willingness to repair > miscommunications). > > One benefit of 'baby watching' and of thinking about what learning is like > for babies is that it forces us to consider forms of learning (and > especially forms of social learning) which are NOT grounded in the > concept-y ways of thinking which we tend to take for granted. Judy Dunn's > lovely study of two-year olds at home (back in the 80s) showed very clearly > how the social capability of these young children was heavily dependent on > familiar (family) contexts. They were able to join in with family social > activities WELL before they were able to 'understand' or 'explain' what was > going on because the familiar practice of domestic routines provided a ZPD > which allowed them to anticipate what 'their' people could be expected to > do and how they could be expected to react. By joining in (without > understanding but with loving support) they had opportunities to arrive at > their own understanding. The CONTEXT of familiar patterns of activity could > be seen as a kind of thirdness but a primary kind! > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > Sent: 17 January 2015 17:42 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Miguel, > Thank you for this question and re-turning us to "ethical" concerns. You > have reflected on the larger spatial scales. My reflections explore the > other micro scale and notions of thirdness within pedagogy. This listserve > has recently discussed notions of "rhythmicity" in our enactments with > others. I want to bring in the psychodynamic notion of rhythmicity within > thirdness by sharing Jessica Benjamin's way of moving beyond the > complimentary notion of "secondness" as the dynamic of "doer and done to" > > Jessica is reflecting on a level of thirdness that is prior to using > language which she says is missing the aspect explored by "baby watchers". > She says the focus on language misses the first or founding moment, when > she writes: > > "This [the first aspect of recognition] is the part that baby watchers > have made an indelible part of our thinking. In my view of thirdness, > recognition is not first constituted by verbal speech; rather it begins > with the early nonverbal experience of sharing a pattern, a dance, with > another person" [Beyond Doer and Done to: An Intersubjective View of > Thirdness] > > This aspect of primal thirdness for Jessica is a nascent energetic third - > as distinct from the symbolic third in the mother's mind - present in the > earliest exchange of "gestures" between mother and child. Gestures are the > early primary exchange which inform "baby watchers" notion of moral or > ethical thirdness which implies the principle of "affective experience" or > "felt experience" that IS PALPABLE. This term "palpable" expresses a > particular level of felt gestures which are nonverbal but are mediated and > are beyond complimentary doer and done to and preconceived propagating. > Jessica argues that for the imaginal symbolic verbal third to actually > "work" [the ZPD] as a true third -rather than complimentary doer and done > to demands - requires the capacity for accomadation to a mutually created > set of expectations [projects]. For Jessica the primal or founding form > this accomodation takes or assumes is the creation of alignment with [and > repair of ruptures to] the palpable patterns, the participation in > connections based on affect resonance. > > This palpable felt experience Sanders called "rhythmicity" which Sanders > considers one of two fundamental principles of all human interaction. The > other principle being "specificity". > > Jessica argues that palpable rhythmic experience helps constitute the > capacity for symbolic imaginal thirdness. Rhythmicity may be seen [and > heard and felt] as a model principle UNDERLYING the creation of shared > patterns that move beyond complimentary dyads of doer and done to type > struggles for recognition. > > Miguel, to explore our ethical understandings of pedagogy that are moving > beyond epistemology, do the "baby watchers" and their notions of primal > nonverbal thirdness have something to offer in our explorations of Kris' > notion of third space as a hybrid intersubjective space that is not doer > and done to complimentarity. > Growth and development seem to oscillate between already known > pre-conceptions of what should be taught [the doer and the done to] and the > more ethical or moral thirdness that emerges symbolically and imaginally > from within a palpable felt experience of nonverbal thirdness that > transcends doer and done to. > This is an intersubjective understanding and is only an "aspect" of the > cultural historical understanding, but it does focus our attention on the > ethical or moral dimension of enactments [performative activities] This > model is an extension of Winnicott's notion of "potential or transitional > space" and Daniel Stern's baby watching. > > Larry > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Zavala, Miguel < > mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu> wrote: > > > The distinction between propaganda and education is an analytic one > > that is useful for me as a teacher. But I also think that it's a > > distinction resolved not so much at the level of philosophy (theories, > > such as those being proposed here) but ethically. > > > > Anyone who has taught and been reflexive of her/his pedagogy will > > sense this distinction between the two, 'propaganda' and 'education'. > > There is perhaps a particular instrumentalism (as an 'ethic', such as > > that promulgated in 'revolutionary' struggles and in neoliberalism) > > that sees people as objects not as Freire would term 'historical > > subjects' in propaganda. > > > > I fully recognize the solipsism in all distinctions, such that some > > may argue that even in Freirean, participatory pedagogy the issue > > remains unresolved. That there is a dimension of propaganda in > > education (and education in propaganda). But what some have pointed > > out (as I read their > > posts) is that we also should look at these processes in larger > > spatial-scales. What are the collectives that give birth or make > > possible education and propaganda projects? Do these strive for > rehumanization? > > How does the struggle for rehumanization remain a struggle at > > theoretical and practical and historical and spatial levels? > > > > How do folks draw this distinction in their own pedagogical praxis? > > How is the ethical conceptualized, lived, and embodied in your > > pedagogy? I suggest looking at it less from a theory of communication > > and more from an ethical one (ethics as primary, epistemology as > > secondary) that we might begin to re-conceptualize the very > > distinction between 'propaganda' and 'education'. > > > > Miguel Zavala > > > > > > On 1/17/15 5:37 AM, "Andy Blunden" wrote: > > > > >And I found the Engels he was quoting, in the Russian translation: > > > > > > /?????? ?????? ??????? /????? ???????????? ??? ????? ? ????? ? > > > ???????????? ??????. > > > > > >The English translation says: > > > > > > The eternal laws of nature also become transformed more and more > > > into historical ones. > > > > > >but then it goes on to say: > > > > > > That water is fluid from 0?-100? C. is an eternal law of nature, but > > > for it to be valid, there must be (1) water, (2) the given > > > temperature, (3) normal pressure. > > > > > >So this does NOT mean what it appeared to mean. Engels simply means > > >"nothing remains constant" It is not saying anything about "laws of > > >history"!! > > > > > >Andy > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >--- > > >*Andy Blunden* > > >http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > >mike cole wrote: > > >> Thanks David -- That is certainly where I must have encountered the > > >>phrase often enough for it to stick in my mind. And thanks to > > >>Jessica and Andy we see versions of the idea in many places. > > >> > > >> Double the pleasure. > > >> mike > > >> > > >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:36 PM, David Kellogg > > >> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>> Mike-- > > >>> > > >>> See Vol. Four of the Collected Works in English: the quote you > > >>>refer to is the epigraph to HDHMF. It's from Dialectics of Nature, > > >>>and Vygotsky keeps coming back to it again and again, throughout > > >>>the whole text of HDHMF, which is one reason why I am assuming > > >>>(against what Anton Yasnitsky has > > >>> written) that HDHMF is a whole book, one of the very few that > > >>>Vygotsky completedly completed (and also his longest work). > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Sat Jan 17 13:35:52 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 21:35:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292122@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110229216D@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> "First, what arises in the consciousness of the infant may be termed most precisely as ?Ur-Wir?, that is, ?proto-we?. This initial consciousness of mental commonality which precedes the development of consciousness of his own personality (that is, consciousness of a differentiated and separated ?I?) is a consciousness of ?we? but not the mobile, complex consciousness of ?we? that includes the ?I??" (Vygotsky, Collected works, vol 5, p.232) I believe Vygotsky used ' ??? ??' but I don't speak or read Russian! All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: 17 January 2015 21:29 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history Rod or Larry--- I have missed relevant material, clearly. But might I intervene in this exchange briefly to ask for a page reference for Vygotsky's discussion of the Primal We? Fits in with ongoing work that faces a looming deadline, and that information would be enormously helpful. Sure a lot to discuss in those notes. Thanks. I will try to engage properly AFTER finish the deadline task. I am still back imagining I will have time to pose a question about the imagination thread! mike On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > Larry, > > As a fascinated 'baby watcher' I am grateful to you for bringing > Jessica Benjamin's work to my attention. While I find her article, I > wonder if you could comment on how her identification of primal > thirdness relates to the concept of the 'Ur Wir' or 'Primal We' which > Vygotsky refers to as the initial condition of the infant and > mother/caregiver. I am more and more convinced that a baby's first > experiences are of the quality of the interaction between its body and > the body of its caregiver - an embodied attunement which is much more > readily perceived than either the separate subjectivities of the baby or the mother. > > I think this 'palpable' sense of being 'liked' by someone who adjusts > their movements to your own is an example of the rhythmicity you have > referred to but we are brought up in a culture which foregrounds > objects rather than actions so the interaction, instead of being > primal - the first form of experience, is described as 'third', a > consequence of the actions of the first and second rather than the water which allows them to swim. > > Another consequence of our culture (experienced with particular > intensity in early education) is our fixation on spoken language as > THE form of communication. In the UK our 'Early Years Foundation > Stage' guidance for early years professionals working with children > from birth to five has a 'Prime Area of Learning' called > 'Communication and Language' which has nothing to say about any form > of communication other than language! The tacit processes involved in > 'getting to know' someone are almost entirely overlooked but I think > these aspects of communication play a very important role in the > ethical function of communication (awareness of how our actions can be > expected to affect others and willingness to repair miscommunications). > > One benefit of 'baby watching' and of thinking about what learning is > like for babies is that it forces us to consider forms of learning > (and especially forms of social learning) which are NOT grounded in > the concept-y ways of thinking which we tend to take for granted. Judy > Dunn's lovely study of two-year olds at home (back in the 80s) showed > very clearly how the social capability of these young children was > heavily dependent on familiar (family) contexts. They were able to > join in with family social activities WELL before they were able to > 'understand' or 'explain' what was going on because the familiar > practice of domestic routines provided a ZPD which allowed them to > anticipate what 'their' people could be expected to do and how they > could be expected to react. By joining in (without understanding but > with loving support) they had opportunities to arrive at their own > understanding. The CONTEXT of familiar patterns of activity could be seen as a kind of thirdness but a primary kind! > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > Sent: 17 January 2015 17:42 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Miguel, > Thank you for this question and re-turning us to "ethical" concerns. > You have reflected on the larger spatial scales. My reflections > explore the other micro scale and notions of thirdness within > pedagogy. This listserve has recently discussed notions of > "rhythmicity" in our enactments with others. I want to bring in the > psychodynamic notion of rhythmicity within thirdness by sharing > Jessica Benjamin's way of moving beyond the complimentary notion of "secondness" as the dynamic of "doer and done to" > > Jessica is reflecting on a level of thirdness that is prior to using > language which she says is missing the aspect explored by "baby watchers". > She says the focus on language misses the first or founding moment, > when she writes: > > "This [the first aspect of recognition] is the part that baby > watchers have made an indelible part of our thinking. In my view of > thirdness, recognition is not first constituted by verbal speech; > rather it begins with the early nonverbal experience of sharing a > pattern, a dance, with another person" [Beyond Doer and Done to: An > Intersubjective View of Thirdness] > > This aspect of primal thirdness for Jessica is a nascent energetic > third - as distinct from the symbolic third in the mother's mind - > present in the earliest exchange of "gestures" between mother and > child. Gestures are the early primary exchange which inform "baby > watchers" notion of moral or ethical thirdness which implies the > principle of "affective experience" or "felt experience" that IS > PALPABLE. This term "palpable" expresses a particular level of felt > gestures which are nonverbal but are mediated and are beyond complimentary doer and done to and preconceived propagating. > Jessica argues that for the imaginal symbolic verbal third to actually > "work" [the ZPD] as a true third -rather than complimentary doer and > done to demands - requires the capacity for accomadation to a mutually > created set of expectations [projects]. For Jessica the primal or > founding form this accomodation takes or assumes is the creation of > alignment with [and repair of ruptures to] the palpable patterns, the > participation in connections based on affect resonance. > > This palpable felt experience Sanders called "rhythmicity" which > Sanders considers one of two fundamental principles of all human > interaction. The other principle being "specificity". > > Jessica argues that palpable rhythmic experience helps constitute the > capacity for symbolic imaginal thirdness. Rhythmicity may be seen > [and heard and felt] as a model principle UNDERLYING the creation of > shared patterns that move beyond complimentary dyads of doer and done > to type struggles for recognition. > > Miguel, to explore our ethical understandings of pedagogy that are > moving beyond epistemology, do the "baby watchers" and their notions > of primal nonverbal thirdness have something to offer in our explorations of Kris' > notion of third space as a hybrid intersubjective space that is not > doer and done to complimentarity. > Growth and development seem to oscillate between already known > pre-conceptions of what should be taught [the doer and the done to] > and the more ethical or moral thirdness that emerges symbolically and > imaginally from within a palpable felt experience of nonverbal > thirdness that transcends doer and done to. > This is an intersubjective understanding and is only an "aspect" of > the cultural historical understanding, but it does focus our attention > on the ethical or moral dimension of enactments [performative > activities] This model is an extension of Winnicott's notion of > "potential or transitional space" and Daniel Stern's baby watching. > > Larry > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Zavala, Miguel < > mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu> wrote: > > > The distinction between propaganda and education is an analytic one > > that is useful for me as a teacher. But I also think that it's a > > distinction resolved not so much at the level of philosophy > > (theories, such as those being proposed here) but ethically. > > > > Anyone who has taught and been reflexive of her/his pedagogy will > > sense this distinction between the two, 'propaganda' and 'education'. > > There is perhaps a particular instrumentalism (as an 'ethic', such > > as that promulgated in 'revolutionary' struggles and in > > neoliberalism) that sees people as objects not as Freire would term > > 'historical subjects' in propaganda. > > > > I fully recognize the solipsism in all distinctions, such that some > > may argue that even in Freirean, participatory pedagogy the issue > > remains unresolved. That there is a dimension of propaganda in > > education (and education in propaganda). But what some have pointed > > out (as I read their > > posts) is that we also should look at these processes in larger > > spatial-scales. What are the collectives that give birth or make > > possible education and propaganda projects? Do these strive for > rehumanization? > > How does the struggle for rehumanization remain a struggle at > > theoretical and practical and historical and spatial levels? > > > > How do folks draw this distinction in their own pedagogical praxis? > > How is the ethical conceptualized, lived, and embodied in your > > pedagogy? I suggest looking at it less from a theory of > > communication and more from an ethical one (ethics as primary, > > epistemology as > > secondary) that we might begin to re-conceptualize the very > > distinction between 'propaganda' and 'education'. > > > > Miguel Zavala > > > > > > On 1/17/15 5:37 AM, "Andy Blunden" wrote: > > > > >And I found the Engels he was quoting, in the Russian translation: > > > > > > /?????? ?????? ??????? /????? ???????????? ??? ????? ? ????? ? > > > ???????????? ??????. > > > > > >The English translation says: > > > > > > The eternal laws of nature also become transformed more and more > > > into historical ones. > > > > > >but then it goes on to say: > > > > > > That water is fluid from 0?-100? C. is an eternal law of nature, but > > > for it to be valid, there must be (1) water, (2) the given > > > temperature, (3) normal pressure. > > > > > >So this does NOT mean what it appeared to mean. Engels simply means > > >"nothing remains constant" It is not saying anything about "laws of > > >history"!! > > > > > >Andy > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >-- > > >--- > > >*Andy Blunden* > > >http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > >mike cole wrote: > > >> Thanks David -- That is certainly where I must have encountered > > >>the phrase often enough for it to stick in my mind. And thanks to > > >>Jessica and Andy we see versions of the idea in many places. > > >> > > >> Double the pleasure. > > >> mike > > >> > > >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:36 PM, David Kellogg > > >> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>> Mike-- > > >>> > > >>> See Vol. Four of the Collected Works in English: the quote you > > >>>refer to is the epigraph to HDHMF. It's from Dialectics of > > >>>Nature, and Vygotsky keeps coming back to it again and again, > > >>>throughout the whole text of HDHMF, which is one reason why I am > > >>>assuming (against what Anton Yasnitsky has > > >>> written) that HDHMF is a whole book, one of the very few that > > >>>Vygotsky completedly completed (and also his longest work). > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not > the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to > scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this > email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services > unless accompanied by an official order form. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jan 17 13:38:11 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 13:38:11 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292151@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <009a01d02fa8$8fbdb490$af391db0$@att.net> <108EE6A1-E9E4-46DF-9D2D-BDDDC91F3C2C@gmail.com> <002701d03041$567610d0$03623270$@att.net> <266E7B49-C0E0-4F92-9126-6480E2285BCF@gmail.com> <003701d03078$b90a4090$2b1ec1b0$@att.net> <002401d030d1$c22558f0$46700ad0$@att.net> <1421343494485.94348@unm.edu> <1421354958824.99228@unm.edu> <1421419557891.17649@ucdenver.edu> <1421431349777.92945@unm.edu> <1421451850176.55008@ucdenver.edu> <1421457861790.15676@unm.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110229205F@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292151@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thanks, Rod -- The relation of propaganda and education. I was writing about what I claimed education IS, not what it should be! Source of confusion identified. Concerning oughts, i am personally very sympathetic to your views as intervening notes will confirm. The history of communication in 10 easy weeks. I can dig out my old notes when I get to the office and send the mimeographed outline the students used with the main points listed in an orderly fashion (mimeograph? what's that?). :-)) The question I keep asking is why, given our views about what education "ought to be", has schooling always, with rare and privileged exception, just what it was about in Ur 4-5000 years ago?? Why doesn't it go away? Why do we wring our hands about children failing in schools when schools were initially designed to be sure that a bunch of those who attend fail? mike On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:26 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > Hi Mike, > > I was responding to your question, 'what is the difference between > education and propaganda ...?' with the probably oversimplistic suggestion > that whereas propaganda is about propagating (reproducing) an existing set > of beliefs/knowledge - evangelising the Catholic faith, for example - > education may (should?) be more about encouraging people to go beyond what > you already know. The 'you' in my message is not Mike Cole but a generic > you! > > All the best, > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: 17 January 2015 21:16 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Rod-- I am flumuxed by your message: > > Here is what I wrote: > > Oh! I see what you are discussing. The Park that used to celebrate the > great achievements of the USSR on Peace Street. > > A really good Vygotskian analysis of the term, propaganda, would be > fascinating to read. > As I recall the word came into the English language from Latin and a Papal > decision to "propogate the faith". Seems apt in the Soviet case. At the > level of social interaction where we are professionally involved and have > some presumably, useful knowledge to propagate (why else do They pay for > us?), how do we think of self presentation that is NOT propagating? > > When teaching, this topic comes up in seeking to get students to > distinguish between education and propaganda, starting with the course they > are taking from me on the history of communication and with it, the history > of propaganda. > > So what is the difference between education and propaganda. My students > and I often had difficulty distinguishing them. > --------------------- > > I really do not know what you mean. Sorry to be dense. > mike > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:50 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > Mike - is it too simplistic to say that education is about leading out > > (divergence) whereas propaganda is about leading in (convergence)? If > > you know before you begin exactly what you want your students to end > > up knowing and believing you may be more engaged in propaganda than > education. > > > > Rod > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > > Sent: 17 January 2015 02:46 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > > > Oh! I see what you are discussing. The Park that used to celebrate the > > great achievements of the USSR on Peace Street. > > > > A really good Vygotskian analysis of the term, propaganda, would be > > fascinating to read. > > As I recall the word came into the English language from Latin and a > > Papal decision to "propogate the faith". Seems apt in the Soviet case. > > At the level of social interaction where we are professionally > > involved and have some presumably, useful knowledge to propagate (why > > else do They pay for us?), how do we think of self presentation that is > NOT propagating? > > > > When teaching, this topic comes up in seeking to get students to > > distinguish between education and propaganda, starting with the course > > they are taking from me on the history of communication and with it, > > the history of propaganda. > > > > So what is the difference between education and propaganda. My > > students and I often had difficulty distinguishing them. > > > > > > mike > > > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Philip, > > > > > > Yes, because if we go by the rubric of [sign mediates internally > > > with the mind], and [tool mediates externally with the environment], > > > which I do > > not > > > reject by the way, then propaganda (as intended), is a tool to the > > > one > > who > > > produces it (because it is intended to influence the environment of > > others, > > > and a sign for those who consume it (the intended others to be > > influenced). > > > > > > My inquiry isn't exactly upon traditionally-considered political > > > propaganda; one could also see advertising as a type of propaganda > > > as > > well. > > > Even punishment and humiliations can be a type of propaganda, "pour > > > encourager les autres." > > > > > > In a sense, propaganda is a kind of duck-rabbit. You see duck, I see > > > rabbit, depending upon what is externally projected/internally > > > received; nothing changes about the drawing itself, it's all > perception. > > > > > > Is this too facile? I feel there may be problems, and appeal to the > > > list to correct me on this. :) > > > > > > Thinking out loud... your mileage may vary! > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > ________________________________ > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not > > the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > it. > > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > > accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to > > scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > > responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this > > email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services > > unless accompanied by an official order form. > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jan 17 13:39:22 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 13:39:22 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110229216D@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292122@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110229216D@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thanks So Much! The exact reference could not be timlier! mike On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:35 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > "First, what arises in the consciousness of the infant may be termed most > precisely as ?Ur-Wir?, that is, ?proto-we?. This initial consciousness of > mental commonality which precedes the development of consciousness of his > own personality (that is, consciousness of a differentiated and separated > ?I?) is a consciousness of ?we? but not the mobile, complex consciousness > of ?we? that includes the ?I??" > > (Vygotsky, Collected works, vol 5, p.232) > > I believe Vygotsky used ' ??? ??' but I don't speak or read Russian! > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: 17 January 2015 21:29 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Rod or Larry--- I have missed relevant material, clearly. But might I > intervene in this exchange briefly to ask for a page reference for > Vygotsky's discussion of the Primal We? Fits in with ongoing work that > faces a looming deadline, and that information would be enormously helpful. > > Sure a lot to discuss in those notes. Thanks. > I will try to engage properly AFTER finish the deadline task. > > I am still back imagining I will have time to pose a question about the > imagination thread! > > mike > > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > Larry, > > > > As a fascinated 'baby watcher' I am grateful to you for bringing > > Jessica Benjamin's work to my attention. While I find her article, I > > wonder if you could comment on how her identification of primal > > thirdness relates to the concept of the 'Ur Wir' or 'Primal We' which > > Vygotsky refers to as the initial condition of the infant and > > mother/caregiver. I am more and more convinced that a baby's first > > experiences are of the quality of the interaction between its body and > > the body of its caregiver - an embodied attunement which is much more > > readily perceived than either the separate subjectivities of the baby or > the mother. > > > > I think this 'palpable' sense of being 'liked' by someone who adjusts > > their movements to your own is an example of the rhythmicity you have > > referred to but we are brought up in a culture which foregrounds > > objects rather than actions so the interaction, instead of being > > primal - the first form of experience, is described as 'third', a > > consequence of the actions of the first and second rather than the water > which allows them to swim. > > > > Another consequence of our culture (experienced with particular > > intensity in early education) is our fixation on spoken language as > > THE form of communication. In the UK our 'Early Years Foundation > > Stage' guidance for early years professionals working with children > > from birth to five has a 'Prime Area of Learning' called > > 'Communication and Language' which has nothing to say about any form > > of communication other than language! The tacit processes involved in > > 'getting to know' someone are almost entirely overlooked but I think > > these aspects of communication play a very important role in the > > ethical function of communication (awareness of how our actions can be > > expected to affect others and willingness to repair miscommunications). > > > > One benefit of 'baby watching' and of thinking about what learning is > > like for babies is that it forces us to consider forms of learning > > (and especially forms of social learning) which are NOT grounded in > > the concept-y ways of thinking which we tend to take for granted. Judy > > Dunn's lovely study of two-year olds at home (back in the 80s) showed > > very clearly how the social capability of these young children was > > heavily dependent on familiar (family) contexts. They were able to > > join in with family social activities WELL before they were able to > > 'understand' or 'explain' what was going on because the familiar > > practice of domestic routines provided a ZPD which allowed them to > > anticipate what 'their' people could be expected to do and how they > > could be expected to react. By joining in (without understanding but > > with loving support) they had opportunities to arrive at their own > > understanding. The CONTEXT of familiar patterns of activity could be > seen as a kind of thirdness but a primary kind! > > > > All the best, > > > > Rod > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > > Sent: 17 January 2015 17:42 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > > > Miguel, > > Thank you for this question and re-turning us to "ethical" concerns. > > You have reflected on the larger spatial scales. My reflections > > explore the other micro scale and notions of thirdness within > > pedagogy. This listserve has recently discussed notions of > > "rhythmicity" in our enactments with others. I want to bring in the > > psychodynamic notion of rhythmicity within thirdness by sharing > > Jessica Benjamin's way of moving beyond the complimentary notion of > "secondness" as the dynamic of "doer and done to" > > > > Jessica is reflecting on a level of thirdness that is prior to using > > language which she says is missing the aspect explored by "baby > watchers". > > She says the focus on language misses the first or founding moment, > > when she writes: > > > > "This [the first aspect of recognition] is the part that baby > > watchers have made an indelible part of our thinking. In my view of > > thirdness, recognition is not first constituted by verbal speech; > > rather it begins with the early nonverbal experience of sharing a > > pattern, a dance, with another person" [Beyond Doer and Done to: An > > Intersubjective View of Thirdness] > > > > This aspect of primal thirdness for Jessica is a nascent energetic > > third - as distinct from the symbolic third in the mother's mind - > > present in the earliest exchange of "gestures" between mother and > > child. Gestures are the early primary exchange which inform "baby > > watchers" notion of moral or ethical thirdness which implies the > > principle of "affective experience" or "felt experience" that IS > > PALPABLE. This term "palpable" expresses a particular level of felt > > gestures which are nonverbal but are mediated and are beyond > complimentary doer and done to and preconceived propagating. > > Jessica argues that for the imaginal symbolic verbal third to actually > > "work" [the ZPD] as a true third -rather than complimentary doer and > > done to demands - requires the capacity for accomadation to a mutually > > created set of expectations [projects]. For Jessica the primal or > > founding form this accomodation takes or assumes is the creation of > > alignment with [and repair of ruptures to] the palpable patterns, the > > participation in connections based on affect resonance. > > > > This palpable felt experience Sanders called "rhythmicity" which > > Sanders considers one of two fundamental principles of all human > > interaction. The other principle being "specificity". > > > > Jessica argues that palpable rhythmic experience helps constitute the > > capacity for symbolic imaginal thirdness. Rhythmicity may be seen > > [and heard and felt] as a model principle UNDERLYING the creation of > > shared patterns that move beyond complimentary dyads of doer and done > > to type struggles for recognition. > > > > Miguel, to explore our ethical understandings of pedagogy that are > > moving beyond epistemology, do the "baby watchers" and their notions > > of primal nonverbal thirdness have something to offer in our > explorations of Kris' > > notion of third space as a hybrid intersubjective space that is not > > doer and done to complimentarity. > > Growth and development seem to oscillate between already known > > pre-conceptions of what should be taught [the doer and the done to] > > and the more ethical or moral thirdness that emerges symbolically and > > imaginally from within a palpable felt experience of nonverbal > > thirdness that transcends doer and done to. > > This is an intersubjective understanding and is only an "aspect" of > > the cultural historical understanding, but it does focus our attention > > on the ethical or moral dimension of enactments [performative > > activities] This model is an extension of Winnicott's notion of > > "potential or transitional space" and Daniel Stern's baby watching. > > > > Larry > > > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Zavala, Miguel < > > mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu> wrote: > > > > > The distinction between propaganda and education is an analytic one > > > that is useful for me as a teacher. But I also think that it's a > > > distinction resolved not so much at the level of philosophy > > > (theories, such as those being proposed here) but ethically. > > > > > > Anyone who has taught and been reflexive of her/his pedagogy will > > > sense this distinction between the two, 'propaganda' and 'education'. > > > There is perhaps a particular instrumentalism (as an 'ethic', such > > > as that promulgated in 'revolutionary' struggles and in > > > neoliberalism) that sees people as objects not as Freire would term > > > 'historical subjects' in propaganda. > > > > > > I fully recognize the solipsism in all distinctions, such that some > > > may argue that even in Freirean, participatory pedagogy the issue > > > remains unresolved. That there is a dimension of propaganda in > > > education (and education in propaganda). But what some have pointed > > > out (as I read their > > > posts) is that we also should look at these processes in larger > > > spatial-scales. What are the collectives that give birth or make > > > possible education and propaganda projects? Do these strive for > > rehumanization? > > > How does the struggle for rehumanization remain a struggle at > > > theoretical and practical and historical and spatial levels? > > > > > > How do folks draw this distinction in their own pedagogical praxis? > > > How is the ethical conceptualized, lived, and embodied in your > > > pedagogy? I suggest looking at it less from a theory of > > > communication and more from an ethical one (ethics as primary, > > > epistemology as > > > secondary) that we might begin to re-conceptualize the very > > > distinction between 'propaganda' and 'education'. > > > > > > Miguel Zavala > > > > > > > > > On 1/17/15 5:37 AM, "Andy Blunden" wrote: > > > > > > >And I found the Engels he was quoting, in the Russian translation: > > > > > > > > /?????? ?????? ??????? /????? ???????????? ??? ????? ? ????? ? > > > > ???????????? ??????. > > > > > > > >The English translation says: > > > > > > > > The eternal laws of nature also become transformed more and more > > > > into historical ones. > > > > > > > >but then it goes on to say: > > > > > > > > That water is fluid from 0?-100? C. is an eternal law of nature, > but > > > > for it to be valid, there must be (1) water, (2) the given > > > > temperature, (3) normal pressure. > > > > > > > >So this does NOT mean what it appeared to mean. Engels simply means > > > >"nothing remains constant" It is not saying anything about "laws of > > > >history"!! > > > > > > > >Andy > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >-- > > > >--- > > > >*Andy Blunden* > > > >http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > > >mike cole wrote: > > > >> Thanks David -- That is certainly where I must have encountered > > > >>the phrase often enough for it to stick in my mind. And thanks to > > > >>Jessica and Andy we see versions of the idea in many places. > > > >> > > > >> Double the pleasure. > > > >> mike > > > >> > > > >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:36 PM, David Kellogg > > > >> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> Mike-- > > > >>> > > > >>> See Vol. Four of the Collected Works in English: the quote you > > > >>>refer to is the epigraph to HDHMF. It's from Dialectics of > > > >>>Nature, and Vygotsky keeps coming back to it again and again, > > > >>>throughout the whole text of HDHMF, which is one reason why I am > > > >>>assuming (against what Anton Yasnitsky has > > > >>> written) that HDHMF is a whole book, one of the very few that > > > >>>Vygotsky completedly completed (and also his longest work). > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not > > the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > it. > > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > > accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to > > scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > > responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this > > email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services > > unless accompanied by an official order form. > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ablunden@mira.net Sat Jan 17 13:49:51 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 08:49:51 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Engels on Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> , <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> Message-ID: <54BAD8FF.8060204@mira.net> "Speak to history" could mean anything to me, Jessica. There are two very definite statements being made here which have been mixed up in translation. I'd now like to figure out when the meaning got changed. I am assuming that the English translation on p. 517 of v. 25 of MECW is a good translation of the original German, because this version is very reliable. It says: "The eternal laws of nature also become transformed more and more into historical ones" going on as David Ke noted to talk simply about the *variability* of all "laws of nature" as opposed to *eternal laws of nature.* That's all.- nothing about human history or it's supposed "laws". Hegel never talked of "laws of history", regarding them as belonging to "appearance" and he was in agreement with Kant on that point. Marx never talked of "laws of history" either, talking only of what has happened in the past and the possibilities pregnant in the present. Stalin did talk about "laws of history". In "Dialectical and Historical Materialism" (1938) he talks repeatedly about "laws of history" and what's more the Party knows them, so watch out, and he is always citing Marx and Hegel to prove his point. So we have in the English translation of "History of the Development of the Higher Mental Functions" the epigram: "More and more eternal laws of nature are turning into laws of history. - F. Engels" and the editors tell us in a footnote that this comes from the "Russian Marx-Engels CW, v. 20, p. 553," which actually says: /?????? ?????? ??????? /????? ???????????? ??? ????? ? ????? ? ???????????? ??????. for which MicroSoft translator gives me: "/Eternal laws of nature/ also are converted ever more and more into historical laws," which to me is *ambiguous*. What are "historical laws"? Are they changeable laws or laws of change? David Ke: what does the epigram say in the Russian edition of HDHMF? Mike C or Natalia G: can you make an unambiguous translation of that Russian from the Russian MECW? My interest is only this: did the translators of LSV's Collected works mess up the translation of the epigram, or did Vygotsky read a distorted translation in his copy of "Dialectics of Nature" in Russian translation? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Kindred, Jessica Dr. wrote: > Does it mean thaqt nothing remains constant, or that everything depends on conditions... which does surely speak to history. > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 8:37 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > And I found the Engels he was quoting, in the Russian translation: > > /?????? ?????? ??????? /????? ???????????? ??? ????? ? ????? ? > ???????????? ??????. > > The English translation says: > > The eternal laws of nature also become transformed more and more > into historical ones. > > but then it goes on to say: > > That water is fluid from 0?-100? C. is an eternal law of nature, but > for it to be valid, there must be (1) water, (2) the given > temperature, (3) normal pressure. > > So this does NOT mean what it appeared to mean. Engels simply means > "nothing remains constant" It is not saying anything about "laws of > history"!! > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: > >> Thanks David -- That is certainly where I must have encountered the phrase >> often enough for it to stick in my mind. And thanks to Jessica and Andy we >> see versions of the idea in many places. >> >> Double the pleasure. >> mike >> >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:36 PM, David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Mike-- >>> >>> See Vol. Four of the Collected Works in English: the quote you refer to is >>> the epigraph to HDHMF. It's from Dialectics of Nature, and Vygotsky keeps >>> coming back to it again and again, throughout the whole text of HDHMF, >>> which is one reason why I am assuming (against what Anton Yasnitsky has >>> written) that HDHMF is a whole book, one of the very few that Vygotsky >>> completedly completed (and also his longest work). >>> >>> > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jan 17 13:49:05 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 13:49:05 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. Balance is an issue for her. When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that she was carrying a large staff. I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! and gave her a big hug." Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became a perons to others. People constantly started up conversations with her and, being a skilled conversationalist interested in people, it made her feel like a whole person. Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a tool? Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as well. mike mike On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Miguel, Rod, > > I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other thread > exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see these topics as > overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that contrast with "twoness" > [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and learner, > etc.] > Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby watcher's I > was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream in > intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language in his > notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow Atwood, and Donna > Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do not imagine > "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as bothDaniel Stern and > Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > In Jessica's words: > "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as growing > naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the other, as a > crucial component of attachment responses that require mutual regulation > and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a pleasure and not a chore" > > Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and other > cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. My bias is to > suggest when these various modes [seeing and rhythmicity] are felt to be in > sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there are > inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to understanding we > may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our primary > mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt experience. > Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle for > recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" Her project > is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for > expressing this struggle for recognition. > She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for > recognition is through a developmental trajectory of intersubjective > development of thirdness. > > Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging sight > [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" the other as > "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as this analytic kernel is > one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are alternative > subject-subject relations that are not mediated by objects? This may be > another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" [with the mind's eye?]. > > Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a father, and > this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures to another dimension, > another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. I would > like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can offer > validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing the other > [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your notion of "intersecting" > multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across verses] > truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > > Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of learning > [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways of > thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of concept-y ways of > seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the children were able to join in > WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able to explain > what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or "context" > in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and > historically situated. > What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, Trevarten, > Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are indicating is the centrality > of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also profoundly > implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. Worlds of > experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this does have a > phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and a cultural > historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y and institutionalized > and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we ethically and > morally respond to these palpable conditions? > > "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically co-creatively > inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" AS potentially > liberating contexts. > > Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two basic > "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is to underline > this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in understanding the notion of > "recognition". > As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and done to > or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" within > thirdness. > THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Jan 17 16:08:55 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 17:08:55 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, I thought just occurred to me about third spaces and the saccades you talk about in your article, ?Minding the Gap: Imagination, Creativity and Human Cognition.? Suppose those saccades are looking for signs of rhythmicity at a basic cognitive level like Hutto is talking about. This is followed at a slower pace by scaffolded cognition, which is what we are conscious of, at the level where we can talk our way towards dehumanizing the dialog. Music and dance would be more effective for working socially at a more basic level. Just wondering. Henry > On Jan 17, 2015, at 2:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > > I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about what I > was conceiving > in my own way as a form of thirdness that I think links to what is being > said here. Straighten me > out if I am wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its > interesting!). > > We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my wife > and a life long friend > of our family. She has been in ill health for sometime and looks a good > deal older than her years. > Balance is an issue for her. > > When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that she was > carrying a large staff. > I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! and gave > her a big hug." > > Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, she > lost the invisibility created by > old age and she became a perons to others. People constantly started up > conversations with her and, being a skilled > conversationalist interested in people, it made her feel like a whole > person. > > Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a tool? > Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as well. > > mike > > mike > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > >> Miguel, Rod, >> >> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other thread >> exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see these topics as >> overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that contrast with "twoness" >> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and learner, >> etc.] >> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby watcher's I >> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream in >> intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language in his >> notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow Atwood, and Donna >> Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do not imagine >> "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as bothDaniel Stern and >> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. >> In Jessica's words: >> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as growing >> naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the other, as a >> crucial component of attachment responses that require mutual regulation >> and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a pleasure and not a chore" >> >> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and other >> cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. My bias is to >> suggest when these various modes [seeing and rhythmicity] are felt to be in >> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there are >> inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to understanding we >> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our primary >> mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt experience. >> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle for >> recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" Her project >> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for >> expressing this struggle for recognition. >> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for >> recognition is through a developmental trajectory of intersubjective >> development of thirdness. >> >> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging sight >> [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" the other as >> "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as this analytic kernel is >> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are alternative >> subject-subject relations that are not mediated by objects? This may be >> another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" [with the mind's eye?]. >> >> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a father, and >> this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures to another dimension, >> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. I would >> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can offer >> validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing the other >> [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your notion of "intersecting" >> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across verses] >> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" >> >> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of learning >> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways of >> thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of concept-y ways of >> seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the children were able to join in >> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able to explain >> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or "context" >> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and >> historically situated. >> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, Trevarten, >> Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are indicating is the centrality >> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also profoundly >> implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. Worlds of >> experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this does have a >> phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and a cultural >> historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y and institutionalized >> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we ethically and >> morally respond to these palpable conditions? >> >> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new >> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically co-creatively >> inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" AS potentially >> liberating contexts. >> >> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two basic >> "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is to underline >> this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in understanding the notion of >> "recognition". >> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and done to >> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" within >> thirdness. >> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness >> > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 17 16:59:49 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 00:59:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Engels on Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54BAD8FF.8060204@mira.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> , <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> , <54BAD8FF.8060204@mira.net> Message-ID: <1421542789086.14168@unm.edu> Hi Andy and others, I wondered if Engel's phrase is tinged with sarcasm given what you have divulged about Stalin's interpretations. That perhaps Engels was being descriptive about what people tend to do when thinking about evolution. It is a theory after all, not a law, but if we make the theory into a law then it opens the door to justify much of what happens in history. There is a story of a mother and her daughter cooking a ham for dinner. The daughter asks, "Hey Mom, why do you cut the ends off the ham after taking it out of the tin?" Mom says, "I'm not sure, that was something your grandmother always did." So the mother telephones the grandmother and asks, "Hey Mom, why do you cut the ends off the ham after taking it out of the tin?" And grandmother says, "Oh gosh, let me see. Well, as I remember? it was because the ham didn't fit into my little roasting pan." But then again, it may also have nothing to do with sarcasm but with noticing the syncretic dynamic that occurs over time, where people take something as real from something that began as a whim, such as when baking ham. Likely not something Stalin would get behind, exactly, as I don't believe he was a very whimsical kinda guy, nor was he a ham. Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jan 17 17:15:53 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 17:15:53 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds right to me, Henry. Every organism is part of a larger, massively heterogeneous flow of life. The music of language is one of its central characteristics of language, one which is recreated, importantly, in ASL. So we have to think multi-modally. I just read something in the New Yorker (Jan 12) by Jonathan Bell, a man with Bell's Palsy. About smiling. Very well worth attention of xmca-ers if anyone can get it. "Give me a smile." I am thinking about the development of smiling in early infancy and its cultural/developmental significance. (See the 2013 article in MCA for backgroun). There is a lot of interesting material to think about in the article, but the line that lept off the page was "Most people can voluntarily lift the corners of the mouth, but authentic joy lives in the eyes. It requires contractions of the ... sphincter muscle which ..... makes the eyes sparkle." For sighted people maybe, but the blind achieve the same end through other modal means and ditto the Deaf. mike On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 4:08 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Mike, > I thought just occurred to me about third spaces and the saccades you talk > about in your article, ?Minding the Gap: Imagination, Creativity and Human > Cognition.? Suppose those saccades are looking for signs of rhythmicity at > a basic cognitive level like Hutto is talking about. This is followed at a > slower pace by scaffolded cognition, which is what we are conscious of, at > the level where we can talk our way towards dehumanizing the dialog. Music > and dance would be more effective for working socially at a more basic > level. Just wondering. > Henry > > > On Jan 17, 2015, at 2:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about what I > > was conceiving > > in my own way as a form of thirdness that I think links to what is being > > said here. Straighten me > > out if I am wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its > > interesting!). > > > > We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my wife > > and a life long friend > > of our family. She has been in ill health for sometime and looks a good > > deal older than her years. > > Balance is an issue for her. > > > > When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that she > was > > carrying a large staff. > > I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! and > gave > > her a big hug." > > > > Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, she > > lost the invisibility created by > > old age and she became a perons to others. People constantly started up > > conversations with her and, being a skilled > > conversationalist interested in people, it made her feel like a whole > > person. > > > > Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a tool? > > Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as well. > > > > mike > > > > mike > > > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > >> Miguel, Rod, > >> > >> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other thread > >> exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see these topics as > >> overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that contrast with "twoness" > >> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and > learner, > >> etc.] > >> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby > watcher's I > >> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream in > >> intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language in his > >> notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow Atwood, and > Donna > >> Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do not imagine > >> "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as bothDaniel Stern > and > >> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > >> In Jessica's words: > >> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as growing > >> naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the other, as a > >> crucial component of attachment responses that require mutual regulation > >> and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a pleasure and not a chore" > >> > >> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and other > >> cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. My bias is to > >> suggest when these various modes [seeing and rhythmicity] are felt to > be in > >> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there are > >> inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to understanding > we > >> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our primary > >> mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt experience. > >> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle for > >> recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" Her > project > >> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for > >> expressing this struggle for recognition. > >> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for > >> recognition is through a developmental trajectory of intersubjective > >> development of thirdness. > >> > >> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging sight > >> [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" the other as > >> "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as this analytic > kernel is > >> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are alternative > >> subject-subject relations that are not mediated by objects? This may be > >> another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" [with the mind's eye?]. > >> > >> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a father, and > >> this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures to another > dimension, > >> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. I > would > >> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can offer > >> validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing the other > >> [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your notion of > "intersecting" > >> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across > verses] > >> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > >> > >> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of > learning > >> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways of > >> thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of concept-y ways of > >> seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the children were able to > join in > >> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able to > explain > >> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or > "context" > >> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and > >> historically situated. > >> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, Trevarten, > >> Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are indicating is the > centrality > >> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also profoundly > >> implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. Worlds of > >> experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this does have a > >> phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and a cultural > >> historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y and > institutionalized > >> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we ethically and > >> morally respond to these palpable conditions? > >> > >> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > >> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically co-creatively > >> inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" AS potentially > >> liberating contexts. > >> > >> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two basic > >> "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is to underline > >> this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in understanding the notion > of > >> "recognition". > >> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and done > to > >> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" > within > >> thirdness. > >> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ablunden@mira.net Sat Jan 17 17:27:07 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 12:27:07 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Engels on Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <1421542789086.14168@unm.edu> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> , <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> , <54BAD8FF.8060204@mira.net> <1421542789086.14168@unm.edu> Message-ID: <54BB0BEB.2090702@mira.net> There is not a trace of sarcasm in what Engels said. Interestingly I find that the old Soviet edition of "Dialectics of Nature" which we have on marxists.org translates the sentence closer to what we have it in LSV CW. See http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch07c.htm#laws "The eternal laws of nature also become transformed more and more into historical ones." But read the context. It is just saying that laws of nature are not invariable, but exactly as David Ke suggested, are subject to change according to the historical point of view of those posing them. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Andy and others, > > I wondered if Engel's phrase is tinged with sarcasm given what you have divulged about Stalin's interpretations. > > That perhaps Engels was being descriptive about what people tend to do when thinking about evolution. It is a theory after all, not a law, but if we make the theory into a law then it opens the door to justify much of what happens in history. > > There is a story of a mother and her daughter cooking a ham for dinner. The daughter asks, "Hey Mom, why do you cut the ends off the ham after taking it out of the tin?" Mom says, "I'm not sure, that was something your grandmother always did." So the mother telephones the grandmother and asks, "Hey Mom, why do you cut the ends off the ham after taking it out of the tin?" And grandmother says, "Oh gosh, let me see. Well, as I remember? it was because the ham didn't fit into my little roasting pan." > > But then again, it may also have nothing to do with sarcasm but with noticing the syncretic dynamic that occurs over time, where people take something as real from something that began as a whim, such as when baking ham. Likely not something Stalin would get behind, exactly, as I don't believe he was a very whimsical kinda guy, nor was he a ham. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 17 18:37:04 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 02:37:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Engels on Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54BB0BEB.2090702@mira.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> , <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> , <54BAD8FF.8060204@mira.net> <1421542789086.14168@unm.edu>,<54BB0BEB.2090702@mira.net> Message-ID: <1421548623733.54579@unm.edu> Hi Andy, Doesn't the theory of evolution imply that nature's laws are variable? How can it be "more and more?" which seems to imply acceleration to me. What I suppose is lost upon me is how natural laws become historical laws. What do you mean by "historical laws"? I'm getting semiotically lost, in a doppelg?nger sort of way... Kind regards, Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Sat Jan 17 18:40:30 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 13:40:30 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Engels on Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <1421548623733.54579@unm.edu> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> , <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> , <54BAD8FF.8060204@mira.net> <1421542789086.14168@unm.edu>, <54BB0BEB.2090702@mira.net> <1421548623733.54579@unm.edu> Message-ID: <54BB1D1E.4010307@mira.net> Just read the context, Annalisa. I supplied the link, Any ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Andy, > > Doesn't the theory of evolution imply that nature's laws are variable? How can it be "more and more?" which seems to imply acceleration to me. > > What I suppose is lost upon me is how natural laws become historical laws. > > What do you mean by "historical laws"? > > I'm getting semiotically lost, in a doppelg?nger sort of way... > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From billkerr@gmail.com Sat Jan 17 19:10:15 2015 From: billkerr@gmail.com (Bill Kerr) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 14:10:15 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Engels on Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54BAD8FF.8060204@mira.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> <54BAD8FF.8060204@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy wrote: Hegel never talked of "laws of history", regarding them as belonging to "appearance" and he was in agreement with Kant on that point. Marx never talked of "laws of history" either, talking only of what has happened in the past and the possibilities pregnant in the present. Stalin did talk about "laws of history". In "Dialectical and Historical Materialism" (1938) he talks repeatedly about "laws of history" and what's more the Party knows them, so watch out, and he is always citing Marx and Hegel to prove his point hi Andy, As you would know Marx's *Capital* has numerous references to the laws of capitalism. This could be interpreted as historical law I think. eg. I would see the marxist claim that under capitalism the gap b/w rich and poor continues to increase as verified by history. Other claims are more contentious, eg. the falling rate of profit, but could also be see as a claim by marx about historical laws. I thought an essay I looked at the marxist archive about Freedom and Necessity threw light on perhaps what you were trying to say: https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/txt/davie07.htm, eg. "Unfortunately, the 'Marxist' tradition within the Second International was to revive Hegel's notion. The practice of the International was to submit to 'historical necessity' - 'scientific' laws that determined the movement of society - which would of their own accord pave the way for socialism. This was the opposite of Marx's approach, who argued that the fact that social relations could be analysed scientifically, as governed by laws that acted independently of humanity, was itself precisely the state of affairs that needed to be overcome through socialist revolution" ie. there are historical laws, the point is more what to do about them, to overthrow capitalism, might move us to a society where there is more freedom and less law. On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:49 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > "Speak to history" could mean anything to me, Jessica. There are two very > definite statements being made here which have been mixed up in > translation. I'd now like to figure out when the meaning got changed. I am > assuming that the English translation on p. 517 of v. 25 of MECW is a good > translation of the original German, because this version is very reliable. > It says: > "The eternal laws of nature also become transformed more and more into > historical ones" going on as David Ke noted to talk simply about the > *variability* of all "laws of nature" as opposed to *eternal laws of > nature.* That's all.- nothing about human history or it's supposed "laws". > Hegel never talked of "laws of history", regarding them as belonging to > "appearance" and he was in agreement with Kant on that point. > Marx never talked of "laws of history" either, talking only of what has > happened in the past and the possibilities pregnant in the present. > Stalin did talk about "laws of history". In "Dialectical and Historical > Materialism" (1938) he talks repeatedly about "laws of history" and what's > more the Party knows them, so watch out, and he is always citing Marx and > Hegel to prove his point. > So we have in the English translation of "History of the Development of > the Higher Mental Functions" the epigram: "More and more eternal laws of > nature are turning into laws of history. - F. Engels" and the editors tell > us in a footnote that this comes from the "Russian Marx-Engels CW, v. 20, > p. 553," which actually says: > > /?????? ?????? ??????? /????? ???????????? ??? ????? ? ????? ? > ???????????? ??????. > > for which MicroSoft translator gives me: "/Eternal laws of nature/ also > are converted ever more and more into historical laws," which to me is > *ambiguous*. What are "historical laws"? Are they changeable laws or laws > of change? > > David Ke: what does the epigram say in the Russian edition of HDHMF? > Mike C or Natalia G: can you make an unambiguous translation of that > Russian from the Russian MECW? > > My interest is only this: did the translators of LSV's Collected works > mess up the translation of the epigram, or did Vygotsky read a distorted > translation in his copy of "Dialectics of Nature" in Russian translation? > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Kindred, Jessica Dr. wrote: > >> Does it mean thaqt nothing remains constant, or that everything depends >> on conditions... which does surely speak to history. >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] >> on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] >> Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 8:37 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history >> >> And I found the Engels he was quoting, in the Russian translation: >> >> /?????? ?????? ??????? /????? ???????????? ??? ????? ? ????? ? >> ???????????? ??????. >> >> The English translation says: >> >> The eternal laws of nature also become transformed more and more >> into historical ones. >> >> but then it goes on to say: >> >> That water is fluid from 0?-100? C. is an eternal law of nature, but >> for it to be valid, there must be (1) water, (2) the given >> temperature, (3) normal pressure. >> >> So this does NOT mean what it appeared to mean. Engels simply means >> "nothing remains constant" It is not saying anything about "laws of >> history"!! >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> >>> Thanks David -- That is certainly where I must have encountered the >>> phrase >>> often enough for it to stick in my mind. And thanks to Jessica and Andy >>> we >>> see versions of the idea in many places. >>> >>> Double the pleasure. >>> mike >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:36 PM, David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Mike-- >>>> >>>> See Vol. Four of the Collected Works in English: the quote you refer to >>>> is >>>> the epigraph to HDHMF. It's from Dialectics of Nature, and Vygotsky >>>> keeps >>>> coming back to it again and again, throughout the whole text of HDHMF, >>>> which is one reason why I am assuming (against what Anton Yasnitsky has >>>> written) that HDHMF is a whole book, one of the very few that Vygotsky >>>> completedly completed (and also his longest work). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> > > From ablunden@mira.net Sat Jan 17 19:15:26 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 14:15:26 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Engels on Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> <54BAD8FF.8060204@mira.net> Message-ID: <54BB254E.1070705@mira.net> It's a very contentious area, Bill. Marx referred to the *tendency* of the rate of profit to fall, not a law, and that was a deliberate choice of words. And yes, that message from my old friend Davie is pointing to the dangers inherent in the idea of "laws of history." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Bill Kerr wrote: > Andy wrote: > Hegel never talked of "laws of history", regarding them as belonging > to "appearance" and he was in agreement with Kant on that point. > Marx never talked of "laws of history" either, talking only of what > has happened in the past and the possibilities pregnant in the present. > Stalin did talk about "laws of history". In "Dialectical and > Historical Materialism" (1938) he talks repeatedly about "laws of > history" and what's more the Party knows them, so watch out, and he is > always citing Marx and Hegel to prove his point > > hi Andy, > As you would know Marx's /Capital/ has numerous references to the laws > of capitalism. This could be interpreted as historical law I think. > eg. I would see the marxist claim that under capitalism the gap b/w > rich and poor continues to increase as verified by history. Other > claims are more contentious, eg. the falling rate of profit, but could > also be see as a claim by marx about historical laws. > > I thought an essay I looked at the marxist archive about Freedom and > Necessity threw light on perhaps what you were trying to say: > https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/txt/davie07.htm, eg. > "Unfortunately, the 'Marxist' tradition within the Second > International was to revive Hegel's notion. The practice of the > International was to submit to 'historical necessity' - 'scientific' > laws that determined the movement of society - which would of their > own accord pave the way for socialism. This was the opposite of Marx's > approach, who argued that the fact that social relations could be > analysed scientifically, as governed by laws that acted independently > of humanity, was itself precisely the state of affairs that needed to > be overcome through socialist revolution" > > ie. there are historical laws, the point is more what to do about > them, to overthrow capitalism, might move us to a society where there > is more freedom and less law. > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:49 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > "Speak to history" could mean anything to me, Jessica. There are > two very definite statements being made here which have been mixed > up in translation. I'd now like to figure out when the meaning got > changed. I am assuming that the English translation on p. 517 of > v. 25 of MECW is a good translation of the original German, > because this version is very reliable. It says: > "The eternal laws of nature also become transformed more and more > into historical ones" going on as David Ke noted to talk simply > about the *variability* of all "laws of nature" as opposed to > *eternal laws of nature.* That's all.- nothing about human history > or it's supposed "laws". > Hegel never talked of "laws of history", regarding them as > belonging to "appearance" and he was in agreement with Kant on > that point. > Marx never talked of "laws of history" either, talking only of > what has happened in the past and the possibilities pregnant in > the present. > Stalin did talk about "laws of history". In "Dialectical and > Historical Materialism" (1938) he talks repeatedly about "laws of > history" and what's more the Party knows them, so watch out, and > he is always citing Marx and Hegel to prove his point. > So we have in the English translation of "History of the > Development of the Higher Mental Functions" the epigram: "More and > more eternal laws of nature are turning into laws of history. - F. > Engels" and the editors tell us in a footnote that this comes from > the "Russian Marx-Engels CW, v. 20, p. 553," which actually says: > > /?????? ?????? ??????? /????? ???????????? ??? ????? ? ????? ? > ???????????? ??????. > > for which MicroSoft translator gives me: "/Eternal laws of nature/ > also are converted ever more and more into historical laws," which > to me is *ambiguous*. What are "historical laws"? Are they > changeable laws or laws of change? > > David Ke: what does the epigram say in the Russian edition of HDHMF? > Mike C or Natalia G: can you make an unambiguous translation of > that Russian from the Russian MECW? > > My interest is only this: did the translators of LSV's Collected > works mess up the translation of the epigram, or did Vygotsky read > a distorted translation in his copy of "Dialectics of Nature" in > Russian translation? > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > Kindred, Jessica Dr. wrote: > > Does it mean thaqt nothing remains constant, or that > everything depends on conditions... which does surely speak to > history. > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > ] on behalf of Andy > Blunden [ablunden@mira.net ] > Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 8:37 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Laws of evolution and laws of history > > And I found the Engels he was quoting, in the Russian translation: > > /?????? ?????? ??????? /????? ???????????? ??? ????? ? ????? ? > ???????????? ??????. > > The English translation says: > > The eternal laws of nature also become transformed more > and more > into historical ones. > > but then it goes on to say: > > That water is fluid from 0?-100? C. is an eternal law of > nature, but > for it to be valid, there must be (1) water, (2) the given > temperature, (3) normal pressure. > > So this does NOT mean what it appeared to mean. Engels simply > means > "nothing remains constant" It is not saying anything about > "laws of > history"!! > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > mike cole wrote: > > > Thanks David -- That is certainly where I must have > encountered the phrase > often enough for it to stick in my mind. And thanks to > Jessica and Andy we > see versions of the idea in many places. > > Double the pleasure. > mike > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:36 PM, David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > > > > Mike-- > > See Vol. Four of the Collected Works in English: the > quote you refer to is > the epigraph to HDHMF. It's from Dialectics of Nature, > and Vygotsky keeps > coming back to it again and again, throughout the > whole text of HDHMF, > which is one reason why I am assuming (against what > Anton Yasnitsky has > written) that HDHMF is a whole book, one of the very > few that Vygotsky > completedly completed (and also his longest work). > > > > > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 17 19:18:45 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 03:18:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Engels on Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54BB1D1E.4010307@mira.net> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> , <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> , <54BAD8FF.8060204@mira.net> <1421542789086.14168@unm.edu>, <54BB0BEB.2090702@mira.net> <1421548623733.54579@unm.edu>,<54BB1D1E.4010307@mira.net> Message-ID: <1421551125010.18708@unm.edu> Hi Andy, I guess the ends of the ham will be cut off and the reason will remain a mystery, since grandma isn't picking up the phone! Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 7:40 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Engels on Laws of evolution and laws of history Just read the context, Annalisa. I supplied the link, Any ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Andy, > > Doesn't the theory of evolution imply that nature's laws are variable? How can it be "more and more?" which seems to imply acceleration to me. > > What I suppose is lost upon me is how natural laws become historical laws. > > What do you mean by "historical laws"? > > I'm getting semiotically lost, in a doppelg?nger sort of way... > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jan 17 23:56:11 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 23:56:11 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" rhythmic modalities. Thought and language and the figural within enactments [performances] You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it is a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to explore what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and cognitive enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a more metaphorical enactment. Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the world as "possibility". In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted brings into "actuality" the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person and enacting this alternative possible "scene". The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable felt experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and becomes "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane was acting from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" internal or external? or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] presence [both internal imagining and external performances] there are always palpable felt experiences and every "interpretation" is guided by these multi-modal ways of understanding. Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable felt experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic dimension as "potential" or "transitional" spaces The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces is there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is often marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular "type" of rationality and thinking. What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third spaces" is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is included and who is excluded. On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about what I > was conceiving > in my own way as a form of thirdness that I think links to what is being > said here. Straighten me > out if I am wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its > interesting!). > > We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my wife > and a life long friend > of our family. She has been in ill health for sometime and looks a good > deal older than her years. > Balance is an issue for her. > > When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that she was > carrying a large staff. > I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! and gave > her a big hug." > > Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, she > lost the invisibility created by > old age and she became a perons to others. People constantly started up > conversations with her and, being a skilled > conversationalist interested in people, it made her feel like a whole > person. > > Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a tool? > Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as well. > > mike > > mike > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Miguel, Rod, > > > > I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other thread > > exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see these topics as > > overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that contrast with "twoness" > > [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and > learner, > > etc.] > > Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby > watcher's I > > was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream in > > intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language in his > > notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow Atwood, and Donna > > Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do not imagine > > "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as bothDaniel Stern > and > > Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > > In Jessica's words: > > "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as growing > > naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the other, as a > > crucial component of attachment responses that require mutual regulation > > and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a pleasure and not a chore" > > > > Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and other > > cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. My bias is to > > suggest when these various modes [seeing and rhythmicity] are felt to be > in > > sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there are > > inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to understanding > we > > may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our primary > > mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt experience. > > Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle for > > recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" Her > project > > is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for > > expressing this struggle for recognition. > > She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for > > recognition is through a developmental trajectory of intersubjective > > development of thirdness. > > > > Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging sight > > [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" the other as > > "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as this analytic kernel > is > > one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are alternative > > subject-subject relations that are not mediated by objects? This may be > > another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" [with the mind's eye?]. > > > > Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a father, and > > this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures to another > dimension, > > another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. I > would > > like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can offer > > validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing the other > > [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your notion of > "intersecting" > > multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across > verses] > > truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > > > > Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of > learning > > [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways of > > thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of concept-y ways of > > seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the children were able to join > in > > WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able to > explain > > what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or > "context" > > in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and > > historically situated. > > What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, Trevarten, > > Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are indicating is the > centrality > > of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also profoundly > > implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. Worlds of > > experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this does have a > > phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and a cultural > > historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y and > institutionalized > > and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we ethically and > > morally respond to these palpable conditions? > > > > "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > > understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically co-creatively > > inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" AS potentially > > liberating contexts. > > > > Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two basic > > "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is to underline > > this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in understanding the notion > of > > "recognition". > > As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and done > to > > or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" > within > > thirdness. > > THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Sun Jan 18 02:55:26 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 10:55:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly conscious of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been explored. In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that it should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking example of what we all do every day when we make choices about how we will represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of clothes, how we do our hair, what we smell like, how we stand and walk, how we greet people etc. all play off our knowledge of what different choices are likely to be taken to mean (by different groups of people). I think this links to what Larry (I think) was saying about the concept-y-ness of the context-y environment in which babies play their way into meanings. In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind them that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised cultural knowledge which informs our choices about how we will present ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) feeling of ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing how we are 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. When the rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy to join in but when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we need to watch from the periphery for a while before we presume to know what we are doing. All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions Mike, You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" rhythmic modalities. Thought and language and the figural within enactments [performances] You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it is a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to explore what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and cognitive enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a more metaphorical enactment. Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the world as "possibility". In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted brings into "actuality" the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person and enacting this alternative possible "scene". The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable felt experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and becomes "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane was acting from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" internal or external? or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] presence [both internal imagining and external performances] there are always palpable felt experiences and every "interpretation" is guided by these multi-modal ways of understanding. Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable felt experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic dimension as "potential" or "transitional" spaces The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces is there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is often marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular "type" of rationality and thinking. What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third spaces" is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is included and who is excluded. On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about what > I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I think > links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am wrong. (I > promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). > > We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my > wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill health > for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. > Balance is an issue for her. > > When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that she > was carrying a large staff. > I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! and > gave her a big hug." > > Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, > she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became a perons > to others. People constantly started up conversations with her and, > being a skilled conversationalist interested in people, it made her > feel like a whole person. > > Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a tool? > Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as well. > > mike > > mike > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Miguel, Rod, > > > > I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other > > thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see these > > topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that contrast with "twoness" > > [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and > learner, > > etc.] > > Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby > watcher's I > > was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream in > > intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language in > > his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow Atwood, > > and Donna Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do not > > imagine "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as > > bothDaniel Stern > and > > Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > > In Jessica's words: > > "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as > > growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the > > other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that require > > mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a pleasure and not a chore" > > > > Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and > > other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. My > > bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and rhythmicity] > > are felt to be > in > > sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there > > are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to > > understanding > we > > may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our > > primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt experience. > > Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle > > for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" > > Her > project > > is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for > > expressing this struggle for recognition. > > She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for > > recognition is through a developmental trajectory of intersubjective > > development of thirdness. > > > > Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging > > sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" > > the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as > > this analytic kernel > is > > one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are > > alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by > > objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" [with the mind's eye?]. > > > > Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a father, > > and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures to another > dimension, > > another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. I > would > > like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can offer > > validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing the other > > [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your notion of > "intersecting" > > multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across > verses] > > truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > > > > Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of > learning > > [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways > > of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of concept-y > > ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the children were > > able to join > in > > WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able to > explain > > what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or > "context" > > in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and > > historically situated. > > What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, Trevarten, > > Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are indicating is the > centrality > > of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also > > profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. > > Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this does > > have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and a > > cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y and > institutionalized > > and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we ethically > > and morally respond to these palpable conditions? > > > > "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > > understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically > > co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" > > AS potentially liberating contexts. > > > > Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two basic > > "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is to > > underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in > > understanding the notion > of > > "recognition". > > As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and > > done > to > > or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" > within > > thirdness. > > THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From smago@uga.edu Sun Jan 18 04:03:14 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 12:03:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike's points echo Vygotsky's perspective in his neglected volume on Defectology: "roundabout" means of mediation enable those without commonplace evolutionary attributes (e.g., sight) to become full participants in society's cultural stream, and thus avoid or diminish experiencing feelings of deficiency, which is the "secondary disability" of perceived lower self-value. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 8:16 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions Sounds right to me, Henry. Every organism is part of a larger, massively heterogeneous flow of life. The music of language is one of its central characteristics of language, one which is recreated, importantly, in ASL. So we have to think multi-modally. I just read something in the New Yorker (Jan 12) by Jonathan Bell, a man with Bell's Palsy. About smiling. Very well worth attention of xmca-ers if anyone can get it. "Give me a smile." I am thinking about the development of smiling in early infancy and its cultural/developmental significance. (See the 2013 article in MCA for backgroun). There is a lot of interesting material to think about in the article, but the line that lept off the page was "Most people can voluntarily lift the corners of the mouth, but authentic joy lives in the eyes. It requires contractions of the ... sphincter muscle which ..... makes the eyes sparkle." For sighted people maybe, but the blind achieve the same end through other modal means and ditto the Deaf. mike On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 4:08 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Mike, > I thought just occurred to me about third spaces and the saccades you > talk about in your article, ?Minding the Gap: Imagination, Creativity > and Human Cognition.? Suppose those saccades are looking for signs of > rhythmicity at a basic cognitive level like Hutto is talking about. > This is followed at a slower pace by scaffolded cognition, which is > what we are conscious of, at the level where we can talk our way > towards dehumanizing the dialog. Music and dance would be more > effective for working socially at a more basic level. Just wondering. > Henry > > > On Jan 17, 2015, at 2:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about > > what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I > > think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am > > wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its > > interesting!). > > > > We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my > > wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill > > health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. > > Balance is an issue for her. > > > > When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that > > she > was > > carrying a large staff. > > I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! > > and > gave > > her a big hug." > > > > Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, > > she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became a perons > > to others. People constantly started up conversations with her and, > > being a skilled conversationalist interested in people, it made her > > feel like a whole person. > > > > Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a tool? > > Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as well. > > > > mike > > > > mike > > > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > >> Miguel, Rod, > >> > >> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other > >> thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see these > >> topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that contrast with "twoness" > >> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and > learner, > >> etc.] > >> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby > watcher's I > >> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream > >> in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language > >> in his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow > >> Atwood, and > Donna > >> Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do not imagine > >> "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as bothDaniel > >> Stern > and > >> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > >> In Jessica's words: > >> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as > >> growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the > >> other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that require > >> mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a pleasure and not a chore" > >> > >> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and > >> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. My > >> bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and > >> rhythmicity] are felt to > be in > >> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there > >> are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to > >> understanding > we > >> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our > >> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt experience. > >> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle > >> for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" > >> Her > project > >> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for > >> expressing this struggle for recognition. > >> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for > >> recognition is through a developmental trajectory of > >> intersubjective development of thirdness. > >> > >> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging > >> sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" > >> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as > >> this analytic > kernel is > >> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are > >> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by > >> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" [with the mind's eye?]. > >> > >> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a father, > >> and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures to another > dimension, > >> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. > >> I > would > >> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can > >> offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing > >> the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your notion > >> of > "intersecting" > >> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across > verses] > >> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > >> > >> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of > learning > >> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways > >> of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of concept-y > >> ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the children were > >> able to > join in > >> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able to > explain > >> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or > "context" > >> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and > >> historically situated. > >> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, > >> Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are indicating > >> is the > centrality > >> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also > >> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. > >> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this does > >> have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and a > >> cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y and > institutionalized > >> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we ethically > >> and morally respond to these palpable conditions? > >> > >> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > >> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically > >> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" > >> AS potentially liberating contexts. > >> > >> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two basic > >> "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is to > >> underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in > >> understanding the notion > of > >> "recognition". > >> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and > >> done > to > >> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" > within > >> thirdness. > >> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jan 18 08:26:05 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 08:26:05 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Rod, I concur with your interpretations. I would add to your comment: In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind them that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's internalized "scripts". This is exploring "my" act and your return act. Third space notions ask or question if there are "intersubjective" ways to enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal "potential" places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not yet exist but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of "posse" [meaning can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a "transformation" through activities [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared realm". This way of understanding is playing with notions of metaphorical and imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared potential spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third spaces of "possibility" within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which things are not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, categorized, predictable, and with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of "intersubjective" mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" to "exist" in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other as things or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced being reduced by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and collapses into complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or "doer and done to" Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" and "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic "third" that which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" The third space must be enacted performed or take action but moving out from within this imaginal shared space. This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" becoming actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no absolute freedom fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint fundamentally. However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal symbolic shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This in no way means "submit" On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly conscious of a > variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been explored. > > In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a significance > because it plays off the cultural expectation that it should be a cane. In > this sense it is a particularly striking example of what we all do every > day when we make choices about how we will represent ourselves to the > world. Our choice of clothes, how we do our hair, what we smell like, how > we stand and walk, how we greet people etc. all play off our knowledge of > what different choices are likely to be taken to mean (by different groups > of people). I think this links to what Larry (I think) was saying about the > concept-y-ness of the context-y environment in which babies play their way > into meanings. > > In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt > others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind them > that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks at > first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > > I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised cultural > knowledge which informs our choices about how we will present ourselves? I > suspect this contributes to the (palpable) feeling of ease or unease which > comes from knowing or not knowing how we are 'meant' to behave in a > familiar or unfamiliar context. When the rhythms are part of our embodied > experience it is easy to join in but when we encounter different, exotic > rhythms we need to watch from the periphery for a while before we presume > to know what we are doing. > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] > On Behalf Of Larry Purss > Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > Mike, > You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social > emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" rhythmic > modalities. > Thought and language and the figural within enactments [performances] > > You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it is a > "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to explore what I > see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and cognitive enactment of > using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" > The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring enacting > [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the "image" of a cane > being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a more metaphorical enactment. > Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is the > cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the world as > "possibility". > In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a "potential > space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted brings into "actuality" > the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a possible > "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person and enacting this > alternative possible "scene". > The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable felt > experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and becomes > "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane was acting from > within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" internal or external? > or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? > Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] presence [both > internal imagining and external performances] there are always palpable > felt experiences and every "interpretation" is guided by these multi-modal > ways of understanding. > > Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and > "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable felt > experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic dimension as > "potential" or "transitional" spaces > > The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces is > there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is often > marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular "type" of > rationality and thinking. > > What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third spaces" > is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is included and > who is excluded. > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about what > > I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I think > > links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am wrong. (I > > promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). > > > > We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my > > wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill health > > for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. > > Balance is an issue for her. > > > > When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that she > > was carrying a large staff. > > I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! and > > gave her a big hug." > > > > Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, > > she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became a perons > > to others. People constantly started up conversations with her and, > > being a skilled conversationalist interested in people, it made her > > feel like a whole person. > > > > Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a tool? > > Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as well. > > > > mike > > > > mike > > > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > > > Miguel, Rod, > > > > > > I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other > > > thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see these > > > topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that contrast with > "twoness" > > > [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and > > learner, > > > etc.] > > > Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby > > watcher's I > > > was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream in > > > intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language in > > > his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow Atwood, > > > and Donna Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do not > > > imagine "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as > > > bothDaniel Stern > > and > > > Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > > > In Jessica's words: > > > "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as > > > growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the > > > other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that require > > > mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a > pleasure and not a chore" > > > > > > Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and > > > other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. My > > > bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and rhythmicity] > > > are felt to be > > in > > > sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there > > > are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to > > > understanding > > we > > > may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our > > > primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt > experience. > > > Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle > > > for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" > > > Her > > project > > > is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for > > > expressing this struggle for recognition. > > > She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for > > > recognition is through a developmental trajectory of intersubjective > > > development of thirdness. > > > > > > Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging > > > sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" > > > the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as > > > this analytic kernel > > is > > > one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are > > > alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by > > > objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" > [with the mind's eye?]. > > > > > > Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a father, > > > and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures to another > > dimension, > > > another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. I > > would > > > like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can offer > > > validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing the other > > > [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your notion of > > "intersecting" > > > multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across > > verses] > > > truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > > > > > > Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of > > learning > > > [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways > > > of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of concept-y > > > ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the children were > > > able to join > > in > > > WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able to > > explain > > > what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or > > "context" > > > in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and > > > historically situated. > > > What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, Trevarten, > > > Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are indicating is the > > centrality > > > of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also > > > profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. > > > Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this does > > > have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and a > > > cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y and > > institutionalized > > > and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we ethically > > > and morally respond to these palpable conditions? > > > > > > "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > > > understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically > > > co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" > > > AS potentially liberating contexts. > > > > > > Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two basic > > > "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is to > > > underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in > > > understanding the notion > > of > > > "recognition". > > > As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and > > > done > > to > > > or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" > > within > > > thirdness. > > > THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Sun Jan 18 08:54:00 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 16:54:00 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Larry, Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's distinction between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I suspect that both terms might trigger associations for many which might make them uncomfortable about using them in these ways). Your observations about possibility (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and common experience might contribute to the building of richer and more extensive possibilities among a community or a group of people who spend time together (especially 'down' time, when they are more relaxed and their social guards are down). It is easier and more agreeable to 'surrender' into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social conversation with no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to contribute to the co-construction of a third space which is shaped not so much by the thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of interactions between them. This sort of surrendering into a group feels very different from submitting to the ordered, planned procedures of a 'getting things done' sort of meeting (though there is room for overlap). >From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very much like what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when baby and caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for the sake of engaging with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the 'great we'). I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of our own and other selves moves in and out of this sort of third space. Vera captured some lovely aspects of this in her book 'Creative Collaboration' - how the 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates the possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions Rod, I concur with your interpretations. I would add to your comment: In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind them that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's internalized "scripts". This is exploring "my" act and your return act. Third space notions ask or question if there are "intersubjective" ways to enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal "potential" places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not yet exist but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of "posse" [meaning can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a "transformation" through activities [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared realm". This way of understanding is playing with notions of metaphorical and imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared potential spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third spaces of "possibility" within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which things are not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, categorized, predictable, and with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of "intersubjective" mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" to "exist" in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other as things or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced being reduced by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and collapses into complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or "doer and done to" Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" and "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic "third" that which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" The third space must be enacted performed or take action but moving out from within this imaginal shared space. This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" becoming actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no absolute freedom fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint fundamentally. However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal symbolic shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This in no way means "submit" On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly conscious > of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been explored. > > In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a > significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that it > should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking example > of what we all do every day when we make choices about how we will > represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of clothes, how we do our > hair, what we smell like, how we stand and walk, how we greet people > etc. all play off our knowledge of what different choices are likely > to be taken to mean (by different groups of people). I think this > links to what Larry (I think) was saying about the concept-y-ness of > the context-y environment in which babies play their way into meanings. > > In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt > others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind > them that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what > looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > > I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised cultural > knowledge which informs our choices about how we will present > ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) feeling of > ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing how we are > 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. When the > rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy to join in but > when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we need to watch from the > periphery for a while before we presume to know what we are doing. > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > ] > On Behalf Of Larry Purss > Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > Mike, > You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social > emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" rhythmic > modalities. > Thought and language and the figural within enactments [performances] > > You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it is > a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to explore > what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and cognitive > enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" > The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring > enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the > "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a more metaphorical enactment. > Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is > the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the > world as "possibility". > In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a > "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted brings into "actuality" > the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a > possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person and > enacting this alternative possible "scene". > The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable felt > experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and becomes > "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane was acting > from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" internal or external? > or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? > Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] presence > [both internal imagining and external performances] there are always > palpable felt experiences and every "interpretation" is guided by > these multi-modal ways of understanding. > > Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and > "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable felt > experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic dimension as > "potential" or "transitional" spaces > > The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces is > there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is often > marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular "type" of > rationality and thinking. > > What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third spaces" > is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is included > and who is excluded. > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about > > what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I > > think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am > > wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). > > > > We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my > > wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill > > health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. > > Balance is an issue for her. > > > > When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that > > she was carrying a large staff. > > I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! > > and gave her a big hug." > > > > Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, > > she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became a perons > > to others. People constantly started up conversations with her and, > > being a skilled conversationalist interested in people, it made her > > feel like a whole person. > > > > Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a tool? > > Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as well. > > > > mike > > > > mike > > > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > > > Miguel, Rod, > > > > > > I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other > > > thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see > > > these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that > > > contrast with > "twoness" > > > [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and > > learner, > > > etc.] > > > Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby > > watcher's I > > > was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream > > > in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language > > > in his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow > > > Atwood, and Donna Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do > > > not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as > > > bothDaniel Stern > > and > > > Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > > > In Jessica's words: > > > "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as > > > growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the > > > other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that require > > > mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a > pleasure and not a chore" > > > > > > Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and > > > other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. > > > My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and > > > rhythmicity] are felt to be > > in > > > sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there > > > are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to > > > understanding > > we > > > may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our > > > primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt > experience. > > > Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle > > > for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" > > > Her > > project > > > is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for > > > expressing this struggle for recognition. > > > She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for > > > recognition is through a developmental trajectory of > > > intersubjective development of thirdness. > > > > > > Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging > > > sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" > > > the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as > > > this analytic kernel > > is > > > one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are > > > alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by > > > objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" > [with the mind's eye?]. > > > > > > Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a > > > father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures > > > to another > > dimension, > > > another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. > > > I > > would > > > like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can > > > offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing > > > the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your > > > notion of > > "intersecting" > > > multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across > > verses] > > > truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > > > > > > Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of > > learning > > > [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways > > > of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of > > > concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the > > > children were able to join > > in > > > WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able > > > to > > explain > > > what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or > > "context" > > > in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and > > > historically situated. > > > What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, > > > Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are > > > indicating is the > > centrality > > > of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also > > > profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. > > > Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this > > > does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and > > > a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y > > > and > > institutionalized > > > and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we > > > ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? > > > > > > "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > > > understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically > > > co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" > > > AS potentially liberating contexts. > > > > > > Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two > > > basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is > > > to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in > > > understanding the notion > > of > > > "recognition". > > > As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and > > > done > > to > > > or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" > > within > > > thirdness. > > > THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not > the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to > scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this > email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services > unless accompanied by an official order form. > > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From vygotsky@unm.edu Sun Jan 18 09:54:59 2015 From: vygotsky@unm.edu (Vera John-Steiner) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 10:54:59 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <000e01d03347$e2cbdc50$a86394f0$@edu> This discussion brings Margaret Mead to mind with her impressive staff. She was a strong advocate of the wisdom of age. Vera -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rod Parker-Rees Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2015 3:55 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly conscious of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been explored. In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that it should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking example of what we all do every day when we make choices about how we will represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of clothes, how we do our hair, what we smell like, how we stand and walk, how we greet people etc. all play off our knowledge of what different choices are likely to be taken to mean (by different groups of people). I think this links to what Larry (I think) was saying about the concept-y-ness of the context-y environment in which babies play their way into meanings. In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind them that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised cultural knowledge which informs our choices about how we will present ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) feeling of ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing how we are 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. When the rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy to join in but when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we need to watch from the periphery for a while before we presume to know what we are doing. All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions Mike, You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" rhythmic modalities. Thought and language and the figural within enactments [performances] You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it is a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to explore what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and cognitive enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a more metaphorical enactment. Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the world as "possibility". In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted brings into "actuality" the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person and enacting this alternative possible "scene". The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable felt experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and becomes "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane was acting from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" internal or external? or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] presence [both internal imagining and external performances] there are always palpable felt experiences and every "interpretation" is guided by these multi-modal ways of understanding. Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable felt experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic dimension as "potential" or "transitional" spaces The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces is there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is often marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular "type" of rationality and thinking. What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third spaces" is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is included and who is excluded. On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about what > I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I think > links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am wrong. (I > promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). > > We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my > wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill health > for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. > Balance is an issue for her. > > When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that she > was carrying a large staff. > I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! and > gave her a big hug." > > Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, > she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became a perons > to others. People constantly started up conversations with her and, > being a skilled conversationalist interested in people, it made her > feel like a whole person. > > Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a tool? > Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as well. > > mike > > mike > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Miguel, Rod, > > > > I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other > > thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see these > > topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that contrast with "twoness" > > [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and > learner, > > etc.] > > Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby > watcher's I > > was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream in > > intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language in > > his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow Atwood, > > and Donna Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do not > > imagine "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as > > bothDaniel Stern > and > > Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > > In Jessica's words: > > "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as > > growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the > > other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that require > > mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a pleasure and not a chore" > > > > Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and > > other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. My > > bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and rhythmicity] > > are felt to be > in > > sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there > > are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to > > understanding > we > > may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our > > primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt experience. > > Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle > > for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" > > Her > project > > is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for > > expressing this struggle for recognition. > > She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for > > recognition is through a developmental trajectory of intersubjective > > development of thirdness. > > > > Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging > > sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" > > the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as > > this analytic kernel > is > > one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are > > alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by > > objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" [with the mind's eye?]. > > > > Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a father, > > and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures to another > dimension, > > another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. I > would > > like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can offer > > validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing the other > > [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your notion of > "intersecting" > > multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across > verses] > > truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > > > > Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of > learning > > [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways > > of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of concept-y > > ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the children were > > able to join > in > > WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able to > explain > > what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or > "context" > > in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and > > historically situated. > > What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, Trevarten, > > Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are indicating is the > centrality > > of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also > > profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. > > Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this does > > have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and a > > cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y and > institutionalized > > and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we ethically > > and morally respond to these palpable conditions? > > > > "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > > understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically > > co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" > > AS potentially liberating contexts. > > > > Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two basic > > "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is to > > underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in > > understanding the notion > of > > "recognition". > > As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and > > done > to > > or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" > within > > thirdness. > > THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Jan 18 11:03:00 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 12:03:00 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: <000e01d03347$e2cbdc50$a86394f0$@edu> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <000e01d03347$e2cbdc50$a86394f0$@edu> Message-ID: <2BDD81EA-EFD1-4FF6-83A8-693595B188D4@gmail.com> Vera, As you know so well, New Mexico is privileged to have a high proportion of Native Americans, who honor tradition and the elders that embody tradition, yet are surrounded, literally, on reservations, by a mainstream that glorifies disruption. On Monday night at 9 PM on PBS there will be a program on the loss of indigenous languages, which results, among other things, in the disruption of intergenerational sharing. Mike has asked how and why we don?t do a better job of teaching. Are there some clues in what Vera points out? Henry > On Jan 18, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > > This discussion brings Margaret Mead to mind with her impressive staff. She was a strong advocate of the wisdom of age. > Vera > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rod Parker-Rees > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2015 3:55 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly conscious of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been explored. > > In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that it should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking example of what we all do every day when we make choices about how we will represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of clothes, how we do our hair, what we smell like, how we stand and walk, how we greet people etc. all play off our knowledge of what different choices are likely to be taken to mean (by different groups of people). I think this links to what Larry (I think) was saying about the concept-y-ness of the context-y environment in which babies play their way into meanings. > > In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind them that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > > I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised cultural knowledge which informs our choices about how we will present ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) feeling of ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing how we are 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. When the rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy to join in but when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we need to watch from the periphery for a while before we presume to know what we are doing. > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > Mike, > You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" rhythmic modalities. > Thought and language and the figural within enactments [performances] > > You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it is a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to explore what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and cognitive enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" > The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a more metaphorical enactment. Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the world as "possibility". > In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted brings into "actuality" > the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person and enacting this alternative possible "scene". > The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable felt experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and becomes "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane was acting from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" internal or external? > or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? > Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] presence [both internal imagining and external performances] there are always palpable felt experiences and every "interpretation" is guided by these multi-modal ways of understanding. > > Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable felt experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic dimension as "potential" or "transitional" spaces > > The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces is there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is often marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular "type" of rationality and thinking. > > What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third spaces" > is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is included and who is excluded. > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about what >> I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I think >> links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am wrong. (I >> promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). >> >> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my >> wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill health >> for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. >> Balance is an issue for her. >> >> When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that she >> was carrying a large staff. >> I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! and >> gave her a big hug." >> >> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, >> she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became a perons >> to others. People constantly started up conversations with her and, >> being a skilled conversationalist interested in people, it made her >> feel like a whole person. >> >> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a tool? >> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as well. >> >> mike >> >> mike >> >> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >> >>> Miguel, Rod, >>> >>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other >>> thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see these >>> topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that contrast with "twoness" >>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and >> learner, >>> etc.] >>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby >> watcher's I >>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream in >>> intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language in >>> his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow Atwood, >>> and Donna Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do not >>> imagine "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as >>> bothDaniel Stern >> and >>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. >>> In Jessica's words: >>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as >>> growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the >>> other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that require >>> mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a pleasure and not a chore" >>> >>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and >>> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. My >>> bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and rhythmicity] >>> are felt to be >> in >>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there >>> are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to >>> understanding >> we >>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our >>> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt experience. >>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle >>> for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" >>> Her >> project >>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for >>> expressing this struggle for recognition. >>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for >>> recognition is through a developmental trajectory of intersubjective >>> development of thirdness. >>> >>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging >>> sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" >>> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as >>> this analytic kernel >> is >>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are >>> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by >>> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" [with the mind's eye?]. >>> >>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a father, >>> and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures to another >> dimension, >>> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. I >> would >>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can offer >>> validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing the other >>> [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your notion of >> "intersecting" >>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across >> verses] >>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" >>> >>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of >> learning >>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways >>> of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of concept-y >>> ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the children were >>> able to join >> in >>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able to >> explain >>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or >> "context" >>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and >>> historically situated. >>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, Trevarten, >>> Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are indicating is the >> centrality >>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also >>> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. >>> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this does >>> have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and a >>> cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y and >> institutionalized >>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we ethically >>> and morally respond to these palpable conditions? >>> >>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new >>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically >>> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" >>> AS potentially liberating contexts. >>> >>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two basic >>> "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is to >>> underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in >>> understanding the notion >> of >>> "recognition". >>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and >>> done >> to >>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" >> within >>> thirdness. >>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jan 18 13:28:07 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 21:28:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: <2BDD81EA-EFD1-4FF6-83A8-693595B188D4@gmail.com> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <000e01d03347$e2cbdc50$a86394f0$@edu>, <2BDD81EA-EFD1-4FF6-83A8-693595B188D4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1421616486197.43302@unm.edu> Hello! Throwing flowers from this side of this conversation, I would like to vote on the Greatness of We-ness. To be a "we" there must be a commonality otherwise it's just me and you, and you, and you, and you, and you, and you, and you, and you, and you, and you, and you, and you, and?so on! At the same time, surrendering to we-ness shouldn't mean giving up one's I-ness or subtracting another's you-ness. For this reason, I don't feel clear about third-space, but I will remain open to it as an idea. I'm just not sure if a third space is necessary if no one is being forced to give up anything one doesn't want to give up, or no one is being forced to take anything one doesn't want to take. If each participant has relative freedom to choose, then it seems the "great we" will prevail. So I wonder if third space is more what is necessary when there is contention? That distance of the third space is manufactured to create a starting point of discourse and exchange? Or maybe I have that wrong? Kind regards, Annalisa P.S. I like that Vera evokes of the Great Margaret into the mix of our virtual space! Margaret apparently means "pearl." Given that the pearl begins as an irritant, that in time becomes a precious gemstone, this may illustrate how age and wisdom may be aspectual consequences only understood in time. From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Jan 18 15:17:44 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (greg.a.thompson@gmail.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 16:17:44 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <98BF1E28-A9A6-4E2B-A66E-215CDA2FE3CB@gmail.com> Rod, With regard to the issue of expectations and how we rhythmically play into them or not, isn't this what Franz Fanon was writing about some sixty years ago in his remarkable book Black Skins, White Masks? It seems like his experience of the little boy who, upon seeing Fanon, cries out "look mama, a Negro!" Is not unlike the flouting of expected rhythms of the old lady with the staff. Only it seems to have exactly the opposite effect. The staff affords recognition of the old lady as a person with rich individuality; the recognition as Negro obliterates any hope of recognizing Fanon's rich individuality (that moment is accomplished, IMHO, and thankfully, in his writing of the book!). Kind regards. Greg Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 18, 2015, at 3:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees wrote: > > I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly conscious of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been explored. > > In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that it should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking example of what we all do every day when we make choices about how we will represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of clothes, how we do our hair, what we smell like, how we stand and walk, how we greet people etc. all play off our knowledge of what different choices are likely to be taken to mean (by different groups of people). I think this links to what Larry (I think) was saying about the concept-y-ness of the context-y environment in which babies play their way into meanings. > > In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind them that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > > I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised cultural knowledge which informs our choices about how we will present ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) feeling of ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing how we are 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. When the rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy to join in but when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we need to watch from the periphery for a while before we presume to know what we are doing. > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > Mike, > You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" rhythmic modalities. > Thought and language and the figural within enactments [performances] > > You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it is a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to explore what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and cognitive enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" > The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a more metaphorical enactment. Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the world as "possibility". > In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted brings into "actuality" > the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person and enacting this alternative possible "scene". > The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable felt experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and becomes "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane was acting from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" internal or external? > or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? > Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] presence [both internal imagining and external performances] there are always palpable felt experiences and every "interpretation" is guided by these multi-modal ways of understanding. > > Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable felt experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic dimension as "potential" or "transitional" spaces > > The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces is there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is often marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular "type" of rationality and thinking. > > What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third spaces" > is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is included and who is excluded. > >> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about what >> I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I think >> links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am wrong. (I >> promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). >> >> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my >> wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill health >> for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. >> Balance is an issue for her. >> >> When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that she >> was carrying a large staff. >> I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! and >> gave her a big hug." >> >> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, >> she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became a perons >> to others. People constantly started up conversations with her and, >> being a skilled conversationalist interested in people, it made her >> feel like a whole person. >> >> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a tool? >> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as well. >> >> mike >> >> mike >> >>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>> Miguel, Rod, >>> >>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other >>> thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see these >>> topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that contrast with "twoness" >>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and >> learner, >>> etc.] >>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby >> watcher's I >>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream in >>> intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language in >>> his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow Atwood, >>> and Donna Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do not >>> imagine "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as >>> bothDaniel Stern >> and >>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. >>> In Jessica's words: >>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as >>> growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the >>> other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that require >>> mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a pleasure and not a chore" >>> >>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and >>> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. My >>> bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and rhythmicity] >>> are felt to be >> in >>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there >>> are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to >>> understanding >> we >>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our >>> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt experience. >>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle >>> for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" >>> Her >> project >>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for >>> expressing this struggle for recognition. >>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for >>> recognition is through a developmental trajectory of intersubjective >>> development of thirdness. >>> >>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging >>> sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" >>> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as >>> this analytic kernel >> is >>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are >>> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by >>> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" [with the mind's eye?]. >>> >>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a father, >>> and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures to another >> dimension, >>> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. I >> would >>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can offer >>> validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing the other >>> [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your notion of >> "intersecting" >>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across >> verses] >>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" >>> >>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of >> learning >>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways >>> of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of concept-y >>> ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the children were >>> able to join >> in >>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able to >> explain >>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or >> "context" >>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and >>> historically situated. >>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, Trevarten, >>> Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are indicating is the >> centrality >>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also >>> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. >>> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this does >>> have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and a >>> cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y and >> institutionalized >>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we ethically >>> and morally respond to these palpable conditions? >>> >>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new >>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically >>> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" >>> AS potentially liberating contexts. >>> >>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two basic >>> "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is to >>> underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in >>> understanding the notion >> of >>> "recognition". >>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and >>> done >> to >>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" >> within >>> thirdness. >>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. > From juanma.duarte@gmail.com Sun Jan 18 15:59:33 2015 From: juanma.duarte@gmail.com (Juan Duarte) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 20:59:33 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Engels on Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <1421551125010.18708@unm.edu> References: <54B5BD97.1010008@mira.net> <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> <54BAD8FF.8060204@mira.net> <1421542789086.14168@unm.edu> <54BB0BEB.2090702@mira.net> <1421548623733.54579@unm.edu> <54BB1D1E.4010307@mira.net> <1421551125010.18708@unm.edu> Message-ID: Hello, I think Engels is also speaking about the historical nature of all knowledge, for example newtonian physics. It?s a central aspect of marxism that the way of knowing is historically situated, and it?s goes not just for historical science but also for natural ones. Of course, it doesn?t mean to fall into relativism but to take in account that science is social, economical and political embedded and in capitalism, mercantilisation and fetichisation reaches it. Greets, Juan D. 2015-01-18 0:18 GMT-03:00 Annalisa Aguilar : > Hi Andy, > > I guess the ends of the ham will be cut off and the reason will remain a > mystery, since grandma isn't picking up the phone! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 7:40 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Engels on Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Just read the context, Annalisa. I supplied the link, > Any > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > > > Doesn't the theory of evolution imply that nature's laws are variable? > How can it be "more and more?" which seems to imply acceleration to me. > > > > What I suppose is lost upon me is how natural laws become historical > laws. > > > > What do you mean by "historical laws"? > > > > I'm getting semiotically lost, in a doppelg?nger sort of way... > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > -- Juan From ablunden@mira.net Sun Jan 18 16:39:51 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 11:39:51 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Engels on Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: References: <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> <54BAD8FF.8060204@mira.net> <1421542789086.14168@unm.edu> <54BB0BEB.2090702@mira.net> <1421548623733.54579@unm.edu> <54BB1D1E.4010307@mira.net> <1421551125010.18708@unm.edu> Message-ID: <54BC5257.5090105@mira.net> I'm sure you are right there, Juan! Here's Engels' original German: /"Die ewigen Naturgesetze/ verwandeln sich auch immer mehr in historische." MEW, Vol. 20, p. 505 Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Juan Duarte wrote: > Hello, > I think Engels is also speaking about the historical nature of all > knowledge, for example newtonian physics. It?s a central aspect of > marxism that the way of knowing is historically situated, and it?s > goes not just for historical science but also for natural ones. Of > course, it doesn?t mean to fall into relativism but to take in account > that science is social, economical and political embedded and in > capitalism, mercantilisation and fetichisation reaches it. > > Greets, > > Juan D. > > 2015-01-18 0:18 GMT-03:00 Annalisa Aguilar >: > > Hi Andy, > > I guess the ends of the ham will be cut off and the reason will > remain a mystery, since grandma isn't picking up the phone! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of Andy > Blunden > > Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 7:40 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Engels on Laws of evolution and laws of history > > Just read the context, Annalisa. I supplied the link, > Any > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > > > Doesn't the theory of evolution imply that nature's laws are > variable? How can it be "more and more?" which seems to imply > acceleration to me. > > > > What I suppose is lost upon me is how natural laws become > historical laws. > > > > What do you mean by "historical laws"? > > > > I'm getting semiotically lost, in a doppelg?nger sort of way... > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > -- > Juan From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Jan 18 17:08:14 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 18:08:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: <98BF1E28-A9A6-4E2B-A66E-215CDA2FE3CB@gmail.com> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <98BF1E28-A9A6-4E2B-A66E-215CDA2FE3CB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <08868A36-0B57-439E-8220-D4D3B1896829@gmail.com> Greg, What you say makes total sense to me. Given the basic nature of this rhythmicity for all living things, all of creation, Fanon is making what is hidden in plain sight visible. What is white noise, hearable. What is the fluid we swim in, sensible. I?m talking multi-modal here. I would like to connect Fanon and Vera. The Black man, invisible to himself and others, is invisible to his own children. We call ourselves an altricial species, yet we deny fatherhood to the Black man, something he can pass on. We privilege our own ways of talking and consider listening unnecessary. But young people of privilege in this country and around the world have drunk deeply from the African well in music and dance, right down to the way we worship. Those red states are just kidding themselves, if they think what THEY pass on can be without that African strain of humanity. It truly doesn?t mean a thing, if it ain?t got that swing. As sure as I can come to truth. Henry Last night my wife and son and I sent to a concer > On Jan 18, 2015, at 4:17 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > > Rod, > With regard to the issue of expectations and how we rhythmically play into them or not, isn't this what Franz Fanon was writing about some sixty years ago in his remarkable book Black Skins, White Masks? > It seems like his experience of the little boy who, upon seeing Fanon, cries out "look mama, a Negro!" Is not unlike the flouting of expected rhythms of the old lady with the staff. Only it seems to have exactly the opposite effect. The staff affords recognition of the old lady as a person with rich individuality; the recognition as Negro obliterates any hope of recognizing Fanon's rich individuality (that moment is accomplished, IMHO, and thankfully, in his writing of the book!). > Kind regards. > Greg > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 18, 2015, at 3:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees wrote: >> >> I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly conscious of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been explored. >> >> In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that it should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking example of what we all do every day when we make choices about how we will represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of clothes, how we do our hair, what we smell like, how we stand and walk, how we greet people etc. all play off our knowledge of what different choices are likely to be taken to mean (by different groups of people). I think this links to what Larry (I think) was saying about the concept-y-ness of the context-y environment in which babies play their way into meanings. >> >> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind them that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! >> >> I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised cultural knowledge which informs our choices about how we will present ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) feeling of ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing how we are 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. When the rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy to join in but when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we need to watch from the periphery for a while before we presume to know what we are doing. >> >> All the best, >> >> Rod >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss >> Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >> >> Mike, >> You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" rhythmic modalities. >> Thought and language and the figural within enactments [performances] >> >> You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it is a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to explore what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and cognitive enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" >> The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a more metaphorical enactment. Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the world as "possibility". >> In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted brings into "actuality" >> the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person and enacting this alternative possible "scene". >> The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable felt experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and becomes "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane was acting from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" internal or external? >> or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? >> Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] presence [both internal imagining and external performances] there are always palpable felt experiences and every "interpretation" is guided by these multi-modal ways of understanding. >> >> Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable felt experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic dimension as "potential" or "transitional" spaces >> >> The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces is there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is often marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular "type" of rationality and thinking. >> >> What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third spaces" >> is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is included and who is excluded. >> >>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about what >>> I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I think >>> links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am wrong. (I >>> promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). >>> >>> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my >>> wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill health >>> for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. >>> Balance is an issue for her. >>> >>> When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that she >>> was carrying a large staff. >>> I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! and >>> gave her a big hug." >>> >>> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, >>> she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became a perons >>> to others. People constantly started up conversations with her and, >>> being a skilled conversationalist interested in people, it made her >>> feel like a whole person. >>> >>> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a tool? >>> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as well. >>> >>> mike >>> >>> mike >>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >>>> >>>> Miguel, Rod, >>>> >>>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other >>>> thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see these >>>> topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that contrast with "twoness" >>>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and >>> learner, >>>> etc.] >>>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby >>> watcher's I >>>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream in >>>> intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language in >>>> his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow Atwood, >>>> and Donna Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do not >>>> imagine "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as >>>> bothDaniel Stern >>> and >>>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. >>>> In Jessica's words: >>>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as >>>> growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the >>>> other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that require >>>> mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a pleasure and not a chore" >>>> >>>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and >>>> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. My >>>> bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and rhythmicity] >>>> are felt to be >>> in >>>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there >>>> are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to >>>> understanding >>> we >>>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our >>>> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt experience. >>>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle >>>> for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" >>>> Her >>> project >>>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for >>>> expressing this struggle for recognition. >>>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for >>>> recognition is through a developmental trajectory of intersubjective >>>> development of thirdness. >>>> >>>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging >>>> sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" >>>> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as >>>> this analytic kernel >>> is >>>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are >>>> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by >>>> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" [with the mind's eye?]. >>>> >>>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a father, >>>> and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures to another >>> dimension, >>>> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. I >>> would >>>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can offer >>>> validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing the other >>>> [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your notion of >>> "intersecting" >>>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across >>> verses] >>>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" >>>> >>>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of >>> learning >>>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways >>>> of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of concept-y >>>> ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the children were >>>> able to join >>> in >>>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able to >>> explain >>>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or >>> "context" >>>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and >>>> historically situated. >>>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, Trevarten, >>>> Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are indicating is the >>> centrality >>>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also >>>> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. >>>> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this does >>>> have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and a >>>> cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y and >>> institutionalized >>>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we ethically >>>> and morally respond to these palpable conditions? >>>> >>>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new >>>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically >>>> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" >>>> AS potentially liberating contexts. >>>> >>>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two basic >>>> "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is to >>>> underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in >>>> understanding the notion >>> of >>>> "recognition". >>>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and >>>> done >>> to >>>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" >>> within >>>> thirdness. >>>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> ________________________________ >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] >> >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. >> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jan 18 17:28:06 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 17:28:06 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Miguel, The article I have been referencing is from Jessica Benjamin's article "Beyond Doer and Done To: An Intersubjective View of Thirdness" There is an extensive bibliography . Interestingly Jessica's dissertation was written in 1978 with the title, "Internalization and Instrumental Culture: A Reinterpretation of Psychoanalysis and Social Theory" Rod, Jessica references Colwyn Trevarthen as a source of her notion of "surrender". Yes, this word will make some uncomfortable, but this term must be seen as clearly differentiated from the notion of "submission" which Jessica believes are often conflated. I view "surrender" as Jessica uses the term as an "agentic" act that is ethical. It is an act [or enactment] which is felt as expansive, not as restrictive of "self" I am going to share a quote from Jessica's paper that she offered to differentiate the palpable difference between "surrender" and "submission". She is quoting Stephen Mitchell who is a key person in developing relational and hermeneutical psychoanalysis. Mitchell wrote: When my older daughter was about two or so, I remember my excitement at the prospect [LP-imaginal] of taking walks with her, given her new ambulatory skills and her intense interest in being outdoors. However, I soon found these walks agonizingly slow. My idea of a walk entailed brisk movement along a road or path. Her idea was quite different. The implication of this difference hit me one day when we encountered a fallen tree on the side of the road.... The rest of the "walk" was spent exploring the fungal and insect life on, under, and around the tree. I remember my sudden realization that these walks would be no fun for me, merely a parental duty, if I held onto my idea of walks. As I was able to give that up and SURRENDER to my daughter's rhythm and focus, a different type of experience opened up to me..... If I had simply RESTRAINED myself out of duty, I would have experienced the walk as a compliance. But I was able to become my daughter's version of a good companion and to find in THAT another way for me to be that took on great personal meaning" [Benjamin, page 26] For Benjamin and Mitchell this quote expresses the principle of necessary asymmetry, by accommodating to the other as a way of "generating" thirdness. and within the "surrendering" the person is transformed, through opening up to mutual pleasure. Jessica is asking how we distinguish between the compliance of "twoness" from the transformational learning of thirdness. For Jessica the answer is ethical, in the form of reflections on what will create intersubjective connection in our relationship, and through this reflection, opening up to surrender and transformation. This creative enactment expresses agency and is not coerced. It is an ethical response. This "intention" to connect and the resulting self-observation create what Jessical calls "moral thirdness", the connection to a larger expansive connection beyond giver and given to that is felt as palpably "right". In all Jessica's work she is distinguishing "surrender" from "submission" [including submitting to an "ideal" of "pure" empathy. which is a denial of self and leads to complimentary doer and done to. For Jessica this moral third space is the space where "self-regulation" and "co-regulation" meet. But that would require further elaboration. Larry On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > Larry, > > Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's distinction > between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I suspect that both terms > might trigger associations for many which might make them uncomfortable > about using them in these ways). Your observations about possibility > (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and common > experience might contribute to the building of richer and more extensive > possibilities among a community or a group of people who spend time > together (especially 'down' time, when they are more relaxed and their > social guards are down). It is easier and more agreeable to 'surrender' > into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social conversation with > no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to contribute > to the co-construction of a third space which is shaped not so much by the > thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of interactions > between them. This sort of surrendering into a group feels very different > from submitting to the ordered, planned procedures of a 'getting things > done' sort of meeting (though there is room for overlap). > > >From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very much like > what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when baby and > caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for the sake of engaging > with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the 'great we'). > > I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of our own and > other selves moves in and out of this sort of third space. Vera captured > some lovely aspects of this in her book 'Creative Collaboration' - how the > 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates the > possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > Rod, I concur with your interpretations. > I would add to your comment: > > In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt > others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind them > that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks at > first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > > The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others > expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's internalized > "scripts". > This is exploring "my" act and your return act. > > Third space notions ask or question if there are "intersubjective" ways to > enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal "potential" > places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not yet exist > but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of "posse" [meaning > can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a "transformation" through activities > [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared realm". > > This way of understanding is playing with notions of metaphorical and > imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared potential > spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third spaces of "possibility" > within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which things are > not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, categorized, predictable, and > with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". > > What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of "intersubjective" > mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. > > Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" to "exist" > in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other as things > or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced being reduced > by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and collapses into > complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or "doer and done to" > Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" and > "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic "third" that > which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" > The third space must be enacted performed or take action but moving out > from within this imaginal shared space. > > This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" becoming > actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no absolute freedom > fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint fundamentally. > However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal symbolic > shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This in no way means > "submit" > > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly conscious > > of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been explored. > > > > In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a > > significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that it > > should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking example > > of what we all do every day when we make choices about how we will > > represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of clothes, how we do our > > hair, what we smell like, how we stand and walk, how we greet people > > etc. all play off our knowledge of what different choices are likely > > to be taken to mean (by different groups of people). I think this > > links to what Larry (I think) was saying about the concept-y-ness of > > the context-y environment in which babies play their way into meanings. > > > > In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt > > others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind > > them that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what > > looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > > > > I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised cultural > > knowledge which informs our choices about how we will present > > ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) feeling of > > ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing how we are > > 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. When the > > rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy to join in but > > when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we need to watch from the > > periphery for a while before we presume to know what we are doing. > > > > All the best, > > > > Rod > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > > ] > > On Behalf Of Larry Purss > > Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > > > Mike, > > You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social > > emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" rhythmic > > modalities. > > Thought and language and the figural within enactments [performances] > > > > You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it is > > a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to explore > > what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and cognitive > > enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" > > The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring > > enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the > > "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a more > metaphorical enactment. > > Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is > > the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the > > world as "possibility". > > In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a > > "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted brings > into "actuality" > > the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a > > possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person and > > enacting this alternative possible "scene". > > The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable felt > > experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and becomes > > "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane was acting > > from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" internal or > external? > > or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? > > Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] presence > > [both internal imagining and external performances] there are always > > palpable felt experiences and every "interpretation" is guided by > > these multi-modal ways of understanding. > > > > Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and > > "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable felt > > experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic dimension as > > "potential" or "transitional" spaces > > > > The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces is > > there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is often > > marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular "type" of > > rationality and thinking. > > > > What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third > spaces" > > is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is included > > and who is excluded. > > > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about > > > what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I > > > think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am > > > wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). > > > > > > We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my > > > wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill > > > health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. > > > Balance is an issue for her. > > > > > > When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that > > > she was carrying a large staff. > > > I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! > > > and gave her a big hug." > > > > > > Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, > > > she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became a perons > > > to others. People constantly started up conversations with her and, > > > being a skilled conversationalist interested in people, it made her > > > feel like a whole person. > > > > > > Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a > tool? > > > Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as well. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > mike > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss > > wrote: > > > > > > > Miguel, Rod, > > > > > > > > I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other > > > > thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see > > > > these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that > > > > contrast with > > "twoness" > > > > [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and > > > learner, > > > > etc.] > > > > Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby > > > watcher's I > > > > was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream > > > > in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language > > > > in his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow > > > > Atwood, and Donna Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do > > > > not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as > > > > bothDaniel Stern > > > and > > > > Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > > > > In Jessica's words: > > > > "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as > > > > growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the > > > > other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that require > > > > mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a > > pleasure and not a chore" > > > > > > > > Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and > > > > other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. > > > > My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and > > > > rhythmicity] are felt to be > > > in > > > > sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there > > > > are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to > > > > understanding > > > we > > > > may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our > > > > primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt > > experience. > > > > Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle > > > > for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" > > > > Her > > > project > > > > is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for > > > > expressing this struggle for recognition. > > > > She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for > > > > recognition is through a developmental trajectory of > > > > intersubjective development of thirdness. > > > > > > > > Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging > > > > sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" > > > > the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as > > > > this analytic kernel > > > is > > > > one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are > > > > alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by > > > > objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" > > [with the mind's eye?]. > > > > > > > > Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a > > > > father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures > > > > to another > > > dimension, > > > > another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. > > > > I > > > would > > > > like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can > > > > offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing > > > > the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your > > > > notion of > > > "intersecting" > > > > multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across > > > verses] > > > > truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > > > > > > > > Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of > > > learning > > > > [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways > > > > of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of > > > > concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the > > > > children were able to join > > > in > > > > WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able > > > > to > > > explain > > > > what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or > > > "context" > > > > in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and > > > > historically situated. > > > > What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, > > > > Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are > > > > indicating is the > > > centrality > > > > of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also > > > > profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. > > > > Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this > > > > does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and > > > > a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y > > > > and > > > institutionalized > > > > and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we > > > > ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? > > > > > > > > "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > > > > understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically > > > > co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" > > > > AS potentially liberating contexts. > > > > > > > > Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two > > > > basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is > > > > to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in > > > > understanding the notion > > > of > > > > "recognition". > > > > As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and > > > > done > > > to > > > > or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" > > > within > > > > thirdness. > > > > THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > ________________________________ > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not > > the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > it. > > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > > accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to > > scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > > responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this > > email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services > > unless accompanied by an official order form. > > > > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Jan 18 17:45:57 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 17:45:57 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: <000e01d03347$e2cbdc50$a86394f0$@edu> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <000e01d03347$e2cbdc50$a86394f0$@edu> Message-ID: Hi Vera Tes, I thought of her too. Only met her once at AAAS meeting that generated Sylvia and my paper on formal and informal learning. She did not have much use for using dumb psycholical methods. :-) I wonder if anyone else had this thought. My friend eas using the method of dual stimulation. She took an aspect of the material world that had been culturally crafted as a tool/sign/symbol. She incorporated it into her interactions with others to reach her - to be reognized as a potentially interesting human being. Seems like there is a connection of third spaces and Vygotsky. Mike On Sunday, January 18, 2015, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > This discussion brings Margaret Mead to mind with her impressive staff. > She was a strong advocate of the wisdom of age. > Vera > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of Rod > Parker-Rees > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2015 3:55 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly conscious of a > variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been explored. > > In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a significance > because it plays off the cultural expectation that it should be a cane. In > this sense it is a particularly striking example of what we all do every > day when we make choices about how we will represent ourselves to the > world. Our choice of clothes, how we do our hair, what we smell like, how > we stand and walk, how we greet people etc. all play off our knowledge of > what different choices are likely to be taken to mean (by different groups > of people). I think this links to what Larry (I think) was saying about the > concept-y-ness of the context-y environment in which babies play their way > into meanings. > > In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt > others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind them > that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks at > first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > > I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised cultural > knowledge which informs our choices about how we will present ourselves? I > suspect this contributes to the (palpable) feeling of ease or unease which > comes from knowing or not knowing how we are 'meant' to behave in a > familiar or unfamiliar context. When the rhythms are part of our embodied > experience it is easy to join in but when we encounter different, exotic > rhythms we need to watch from the periphery for a while before we presume > to know what we are doing. > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees = > plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > Mike, > You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social > emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" rhythmic > modalities. > Thought and language and the figural within enactments [performances] > > You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it is a > "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to explore what I > see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and cognitive enactment of > using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" > The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring enacting > [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the "image" of a cane > being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a more metaphorical enactment. > Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is the > cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the world as > "possibility". > In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a "potential > space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted brings into "actuality" > the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a possible > "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person and enacting this > alternative possible "scene". > The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable felt > experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and becomes > "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane was acting from > within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" internal or external? > or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? > Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] presence [both > internal imagining and external performances] there are always palpable > felt experiences and every "interpretation" is guided by these multi-modal > ways of understanding. > > Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and > "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable felt > experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic dimension as > "potential" or "transitional" spaces > > The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces is > there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is often > marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular "type" of > rationality and thinking. > > What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third spaces" > is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is included and > who is excluded. > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole > > wrote: > > > I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about what > > I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I think > > links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am wrong. (I > > promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). > > > > We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my > > wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill health > > for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. > > Balance is an issue for her. > > > > When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that she > > was carrying a large staff. > > I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! and > > gave her a big hug." > > > > Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, > > she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became a perons > > to others. People constantly started up conversations with her and, > > being a skilled conversationalist interested in people, it made her > > feel like a whole person. > > > > Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a tool? > > Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as well. > > > > mike > > > > mike > > > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > > > Miguel, Rod, > > > > > > I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other > > > thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see these > > > topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that contrast with > "twoness" > > > [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and > > learner, > > > etc.] > > > Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby > > watcher's I > > > was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream in > > > intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language in > > > his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow Atwood, > > > and Donna Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do not > > > imagine "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as > > > bothDaniel Stern > > and > > > Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > > > In Jessica's words: > > > "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as > > > growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the > > > other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that require > > > mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a > pleasure and not a chore" > > > > > > Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and > > > other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. My > > > bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and rhythmicity] > > > are felt to be > > in > > > sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there > > > are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to > > > understanding > > we > > > may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our > > > primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt > experience. > > > Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle > > > for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" > > > Her > > project > > > is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for > > > expressing this struggle for recognition. > > > She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for > > > recognition is through a developmental trajectory of intersubjective > > > development of thirdness. > > > > > > Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging > > > sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" > > > the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as > > > this analytic kernel > > is > > > one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are > > > alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by > > > objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" > [with the mind's eye?]. > > > > > > Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a father, > > > and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures to another > > dimension, > > > another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. I > > would > > > like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can offer > > > validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing the other > > > [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your notion of > > "intersecting" > > > multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across > > verses] > > > truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > > > > > > Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of > > learning > > > [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways > > > of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of concept-y > > > ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the children were > > > able to join > > in > > > WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able to > > explain > > > what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or > > "context" > > > in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and > > > historically situated. > > > What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, Trevarten, > > > Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are indicating is the > > centrality > > > of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also > > > profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. > > > Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this does > > > have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and a > > > cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y and > > institutionalized > > > and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we ethically > > > and morally respond to these palpable conditions? > > > > > > "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > > > understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically > > > co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" > > > AS potentially liberating contexts. > > > > > > Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two basic > > > "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is to > > > underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in > > > understanding the notion > > of > > > "recognition". > > > As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and > > > done > > to > > > or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" > > within > > > thirdness. > > > THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ablunden@mira.net Sun Jan 18 22:31:05 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 17:31:05 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Engels on Laws of evolution and laws of history In-Reply-To: <54BC5257.5090105@mira.net> References: <54B5D33B.4040009@mira.net> <54B5E57F.1050208@mira.net> <54BA658B.1030105@mira.net> <54BAD8FF.8060204@mira.net> <1421542789086.14168@unm.edu> <54BB0BEB.2090702@mira.net> <1421548623733.54579@unm.edu> <54BB1D1E.4010307@mira.net> <1421551125010.18708@unm.edu> <54BC5257.5090105@mira.net> Message-ID: <54BCA4A9.3060806@mira.net> I found the Russian version of LSV CW, volume 3. It has the correct quote from the Russian edition of Engels' Dialectics of Nature. The "laws of history" is a creation of the translator, Marie Hall. Engels and Vygotsky not guilty! Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Andy Blunden wrote: > I'm sure you are right there, Juan! > Here's Engels' original German: > /"Die ewigen Naturgesetze/ verwandeln sich auch immer mehr in > historische." MEW, Vol. 20, p. 505 > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Juan Duarte wrote: >> Hello, I think Engels is also speaking about the historical nature of >> all knowledge, for example newtonian physics. It?s a central aspect >> of marxism that the way of knowing is historically situated, and it?s >> goes not just for historical science but also for natural ones. Of >> course, it doesn?t mean to fall into relativism but to take in >> account that science is social, economical and political embedded and >> in capitalism, mercantilisation and fetichisation reaches it. >> >> Greets, >> >> Juan D. >> >> 2015-01-18 0:18 GMT-03:00 Annalisa Aguilar > >: >> >> Hi Andy, >> >> I guess the ends of the ham will be cut off and the reason will >> remain a mystery, since grandma isn't picking up the phone! >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> > > on behalf of Andy >> Blunden > >> Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 7:40 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Engels on Laws of evolution and laws of >> history >> >> Just read the context, Annalisa. I supplied the link, >> Any >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> > Hi Andy, >> > >> > Doesn't the theory of evolution imply that nature's laws are >> variable? How can it be "more and more?" which seems to imply >> acceleration to me. >> > >> > What I suppose is lost upon me is how natural laws become >> historical laws. >> > >> > What do you mean by "historical laws"? >> > >> > I'm getting semiotically lost, in a doppelg?nger sort of way... >> > >> > Kind regards, >> > >> > Annalisa >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Juan > > > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Sun Jan 18 23:09:54 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 07:09:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk>, Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Larry, As I said, I like Benjamin's distinction between surrender and submission but I also think that it is not so simple to introduce new shadings of meaning to a word/concept which is already part of people's vocabulary. For most people, outside the group of those who know about Benjamin's work, surrender WILL still carry felt associations with unwillingly giving up ownership or control of something prized/valued. This is bound to result in miscommunication unless those who use surrender in its new sense signal and explain this use. I think an awareness of how we can expect others to react (body, mind and soul) is a core aspect of communication and ethical behaviour. We can't just occupy that third space and expect others to surrender to the meanings we want to introduce! Rod Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: Larry Purss Sent: 19/01/2015 01:29 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions Miguel, The article I have been referencing is from Jessica Benjamin's article "Beyond Doer and Done To: An Intersubjective View of Thirdness" There is an extensive bibliography . Interestingly Jessica's dissertation was written in 1978 with the title, "Internalization and Instrumental Culture: A Reinterpretation of Psychoanalysis and Social Theory" Rod, Jessica references Colwyn Trevarthen as a source of her notion of "surrender". Yes, this word will make some uncomfortable, but this term must be seen as clearly differentiated from the notion of "submission" which Jessica believes are often conflated. I view "surrender" as Jessica uses the term as an "agentic" act that is ethical. It is an act [or enactment] which is felt as expansive, not as restrictive of "self" I am going to share a quote from Jessica's paper that she offered to differentiate the palpable difference between "surrender" and "submission". She is quoting Stephen Mitchell who is a key person in developing relational and hermeneutical psychoanalysis. Mitchell wrote: When my older daughter was about two or so, I remember my excitement at the prospect [LP-imaginal] of taking walks with her, given her new ambulatory skills and her intense interest in being outdoors. However, I soon found these walks agonizingly slow. My idea of a walk entailed brisk movement along a road or path. Her idea was quite different. The implication of this difference hit me one day when we encountered a fallen tree on the side of the road.... The rest of the "walk" was spent exploring the fungal and insect life on, under, and around the tree. I remember my sudden realization that these walks would be no fun for me, merely a parental duty, if I held onto my idea of walks. As I was able to give that up and SURRENDER to my daughter's rhythm and focus, a different type of experience opened up to me..... If I had simply RESTRAINED myself out of duty, I would have experienced the walk as a compliance. But I was able to become my daughter's version of a good companion and to find in THAT another way for me to be that took on great personal meaning" [Benjamin, page 26] For Benjamin and Mitchell this quote expresses the principle of necessary asymmetry, by accommodating to the other as a way of "generating" thirdness. and within the "surrendering" the person is transformed, through opening up to mutual pleasure. Jessica is asking how we distinguish between the compliance of "twoness" from the transformational learning of thirdness. For Jessica the answer is ethical, in the form of reflections on what will create intersubjective connection in our relationship, and through this reflection, opening up to surrender and transformation. This creative enactment expresses agency and is not coerced. It is an ethical response. This "intention" to connect and the resulting self-observation create what Jessical calls "moral thirdness", the connection to a larger expansive connection beyond giver and given to that is felt as palpably "right". In all Jessica's work she is distinguishing "surrender" from "submission" [including submitting to an "ideal" of "pure" empathy. which is a denial of self and leads to complimentary doer and done to. For Jessica this moral third space is the space where "self-regulation" and "co-regulation" meet. But that would require further elaboration. Larry On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > Larry, > > Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's distinction > between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I suspect that both terms > might trigger associations for many which might make them uncomfortable > about using them in these ways). Your observations about possibility > (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and common > experience might contribute to the building of richer and more extensive > possibilities among a community or a group of people who spend time > together (especially 'down' time, when they are more relaxed and their > social guards are down). It is easier and more agreeable to 'surrender' > into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social conversation with > no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to contribute > to the co-construction of a third space which is shaped not so much by the > thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of interactions > between them. This sort of surrendering into a group feels very different > from submitting to the ordered, planned procedures of a 'getting things > done' sort of meeting (though there is room for overlap). > > >From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very much like > what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when baby and > caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for the sake of engaging > with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the 'great we'). > > I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of our own and > other selves moves in and out of this sort of third space. Vera captured > some lovely aspects of this in her book 'Creative Collaboration' - how the > 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates the > possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > Rod, I concur with your interpretations. > I would add to your comment: > > In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt > others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind them > that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks at > first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > > The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others > expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's internalized > "scripts". > This is exploring "my" act and your return act. > > Third space notions ask or question if there are "intersubjective" ways to > enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal "potential" > places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not yet exist > but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of "posse" [meaning > can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a "transformation" through activities > [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared realm". > > This way of understanding is playing with notions of metaphorical and > imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared potential > spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third spaces of "possibility" > within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which things are > not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, categorized, predictable, and > with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". > > What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of "intersubjective" > mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. > > Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" to "exist" > in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other as things > or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced being reduced > by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and collapses into > complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or "doer and done to" > Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" and > "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic "third" that > which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" > The third space must be enacted performed or take action but moving out > from within this imaginal shared space. > > This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" becoming > actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no absolute freedom > fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint fundamentally. > However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal symbolic > shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This in no way means > "submit" > > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly conscious > > of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been explored. > > > > In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a > > significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that it > > should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking example > > of what we all do every day when we make choices about how we will > > represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of clothes, how we do our > > hair, what we smell like, how we stand and walk, how we greet people > > etc. all play off our knowledge of what different choices are likely > > to be taken to mean (by different groups of people). I think this > > links to what Larry (I think) was saying about the concept-y-ness of > > the context-y environment in which babies play their way into meanings. > > > > In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt > > others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind > > them that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what > > looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > > > > I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised cultural > > knowledge which informs our choices about how we will present > > ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) feeling of > > ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing how we are > > 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. When the > > rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy to join in but > > when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we need to watch from the > > periphery for a while before we presume to know what we are doing. > > > > All the best, > > > > Rod > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > > ] > > On Behalf Of Larry Purss > > Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > > > Mike, > > You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social > > emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" rhythmic > > modalities. > > Thought and language and the figural within enactments [performances] > > > > You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it is > > a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to explore > > what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and cognitive > > enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" > > The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring > > enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the > > "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a more > metaphorical enactment. > > Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is > > the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the > > world as "possibility". > > In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a > > "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted brings > into "actuality" > > the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a > > possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person and > > enacting this alternative possible "scene". > > The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable felt > > experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and becomes > > "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane was acting > > from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" internal or > external? > > or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? > > Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] presence > > [both internal imagining and external performances] there are always > > palpable felt experiences and every "interpretation" is guided by > > these multi-modal ways of understanding. > > > > Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and > > "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable felt > > experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic dimension as > > "potential" or "transitional" spaces > > > > The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces is > > there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is often > > marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular "type" of > > rationality and thinking. > > > > What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third > spaces" > > is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is included > > and who is excluded. > > > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about > > > what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I > > > think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am > > > wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). > > > > > > We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my > > > wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill > > > health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. > > > Balance is an issue for her. > > > > > > When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that > > > she was carrying a large staff. > > > I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! > > > and gave her a big hug." > > > > > > Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, > > > she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became a perons > > > to others. People constantly started up conversations with her and, > > > being a skilled conversationalist interested in people, it made her > > > feel like a whole person. > > > > > > Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a > tool? > > > Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as well. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > mike > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss > > wrote: > > > > > > > Miguel, Rod, > > > > > > > > I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other > > > > thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see > > > > these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that > > > > contrast with > > "twoness" > > > > [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and > > > learner, > > > > etc.] > > > > Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby > > > watcher's I > > > > was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream > > > > in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language > > > > in his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow > > > > Atwood, and Donna Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do > > > > not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as > > > > bothDaniel Stern > > > and > > > > Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > > > > In Jessica's words: > > > > "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as > > > > growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the > > > > other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that require > > > > mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a > > pleasure and not a chore" > > > > > > > > Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and > > > > other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. > > > > My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and > > > > rhythmicity] are felt to be > > > in > > > > sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there > > > > are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to > > > > understanding > > > we > > > > may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our > > > > primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt > > experience. > > > > Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle > > > > for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" > > > > Her > > > project > > > > is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for > > > > expressing this struggle for recognition. > > > > She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for > > > > recognition is through a developmental trajectory of > > > > intersubjective development of thirdness. > > > > > > > > Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging > > > > sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" > > > > the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as > > > > this analytic kernel > > > is > > > > one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are > > > > alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by > > > > objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" > > [with the mind's eye?]. > > > > > > > > Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a > > > > father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures > > > > to another > > > dimension, > > > > another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. > > > > I > > > would > > > > like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can > > > > offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing > > > > the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your > > > > notion of > > > "intersecting" > > > > multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across > > > verses] > > > > truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > > > > > > > > Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of > > > learning > > > > [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways > > > > of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of > > > > concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the > > > > children were able to join > > > in > > > > WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able > > > > to > > > explain > > > > what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or > > > "context" > > > > in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and > > > > historically situated. > > > > What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, > > > > Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are > > > > indicating is the > > > centrality > > > > of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also > > > > profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. > > > > Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this > > > > does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and > > > > a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y > > > > and > > > institutionalized > > > > and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we > > > > ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? > > > > > > > > "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > > > > understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically > > > > co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" > > > > AS potentially liberating contexts. > > > > > > > > Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two > > > > basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is > > > > to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in > > > > understanding the notion > > > of > > > > "recognition". > > > > As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and > > > > done > > > to > > > > or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" > > > within > > > > thirdness. > > > > THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > ________________________________ > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. 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Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From smago@uga.edu Mon Jan 19 03:40:14 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 11:40:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Journal of Game-Supported Interactive Learning In-Reply-To: <3be46d7f0e104398b3762708eec63117@BN1BFFO11FD033.protection.gbl> References: <3be46d7f0e104398b3762708eec63117@BN1BFFO11FD033.protection.gbl> Message-ID: Of possible interest: > If you cannot view this email properly, please click here. [http://macroworldpub.com/newsletter/logo.JPG] www.macroworldpub.com [http://macroworldpub.com/newsletter/jgsil.jpg] Dear Colleague, The journal is a peer-reviewed scholarly journal published by ILCS and MacroWorld Pub., in both print and online version for research on all aspects of the use of game in learning and teaching in all sectors of education. Journal of Game-Supported Interactive Learning is an international, refereed, multi-disciplinary, peer-refereed journal providing a platform for the publication of high quality and discussion of the latest scientific research, concepts, review papers and comparative analyses and exemplars that can deeply influence the role of game-supported technologies on learning, development, instruction and teaching. All manuscripts must be prepared in English and are subject to a rigorous and fair peer-review process. Articles submitted to this journal must be original and not have been published elsewhere. Topics may include, but are not limited to: learning theory, learning technologies, cognition and technology, new uses of technology in education, instructional design theory and application, integration of information resources, issue-or results-focused case studies, online learning, computer game applications in education, simulations and gaming, and other aspects of the use of technology in the learning process. JGSIL is an international journal devoted to the examination of the relationships between interactive learning and game studies across a wide range of perspectives and settings, theoretical, different methodological approaches and applied. The journal providing a platform for the researchers, academicians, professional and students to impart and share knowledge in the form of high quality empirical and theoretical research papers, case studies and book reviews. The quick (30 days) and double blind review process, rich editorial board, zero tolerance for plagiarism and high respect for publication ethics, a strong commitment for scheduled publication are the key features of the Institute?s journals. The journal accepts online submissions only. Submission and Publication Information: Submission deadline: February 20th, 2015 First round decisions announced: March 20th, 2015 Authors submit revised manuscripts: May 28, 2015 Final manuscript submissions to publisher: July, 2015 Number of papers: 5 to 7 papers [http://www.macroworldpub.com/kutuphane/upload/resim/5d8bffd242d8373db47e307a040f9839.jpg] Manuscript Submission Editorial Board Publication Ethics Contact RELATED JOURNALS Social Media Studies Educational Policies and Current Practices Information and Audiovisual Policy Critical Photography Studies Eurasian Film Studies Computer Games and Communication Quantitative Analysis in Communication For more information, visit the official website of the journal jgsil.macroworldpub.com If you would like to discuss your paper prior to submission, or seek advice on the submission process please contact the Journal of Game-Supported Interactive Learning, Editorial Office, at the following email address: jgsil@macroworldpub.com For more information, visit the official website of the journals: www.macroworldpub.com MacroWorld Publishing respect your privacy. This email is not automated email. If you wish not to receive emails please To unsubscribe from future announcements click on the following link and confirm: Unsubscribe by email [http://macroworldpub.com/newsletter/logo2.png] ? 2015 MacroWorld Publishing Co. From smago@uga.edu Mon Jan 19 04:48:40 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 12:48:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Join Us: Brain-Friendly Assessments for Student Growth In-Reply-To: <137686813.2024813861.1421669616269.JavaMail.root@sjmas01.marketo.org> References: <137686813.2024813861.1421669616269.JavaMail.root@sjmas01.marketo.org> Message-ID: I just got this notice. Note that brain-friendly still often trumps culture-friendly in education. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. p From: Learning Sciences International [mailto:lsiinfo@learningsciences.com] Sent: Monday, January 19, 2015 7:14 AM To: Peter Smagorinsky Subject: Join Us: Brain-Friendly Assessments for Student Growth FORWARD THIS EMAIL [Learning Sciences International] Leverage Neuroscience Research to Deepen Students? Learning. Join Dr. David A. Sousa, author of our new book, Brain-Friendly Assessments: What They Are and How to Use Them, for a fascinating webinar on assessment strategies based on neuroscience research. Sousa will discuss the state of testing and assessment on the 2015 education landscape and address critical questions that today?s educators have, such as: * What makes assessment brain-friendly? * What and whom should be assessed? * How is assessment different from testing? * How can it impact student and teacher growth? When students ask how they?re going to use the content they learn, they?re searching for meaning so they can move the information to long-term memory. It?s exactly what we want them to do, and brain-friendly assessments can make it an easier goal to achieve. Attend Dr. Sousa?s webinar to learn about the design and implementation of assessments that are truly in the best interest of students. Webinar Neuroscience and Brain-Friendly Assessments [Dr. David A. Sousa] Dr. David A. Sousa Wednesday, January 21 3 p.m. EST. [Register Here] ________________________________ Brain-Friendly Assessments What They Are and How to Use Them [Brain-Friendly Assessments] [Pre-order] LEARNING SCIENCES INTERNATIONAL About Us | Research Services | Student Surveys | Publishing | Blog | Contact Us [Facebook] [Twitter] [Google +] [Pinterest] This email was sent to SMAGO@UGA.EDU. If you no longer wish to receive these emails you may unsubscribe at any time. 1400 Centrepark Boulevard, Suite 1000 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Jan 19 07:22:12 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 07:22:12 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Rod, In the spirit of your caution and acknowledging its truth value, I want to say I was hesitant to use the term "surrender" for how it would be misunderstood. In a similar way to the misunderstandings of the term "mind". I will mention that Jessica is consciously using the word "surrender" as NOT "submission" as she tries to articulate a nypothesis that sees through "domination" and the struggle to the death of complimentary "recognition" I fully expect Jessica's work to instigate passionate responses. Her work does develop from Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer, Fromm and the Frankfurt school. Jessica says we have conflated "surrender" with "submission" and Jessica's use of the term "surrender" must be seen as being engaged in exploring [and putting in play] notions of instrumental internalized "self-regulation" AND notions of the "third space" as coming into being through "surrender" to a place of potentiality and possibility that is moving "beyond" self-assertion as a complimentary struggle to the death. Rod, the play of "active" and "receptive" thirds [in contrast to active and passive twoness] is the place which Jessica is inviting us to occupy. Notions of "surrender" carry huge baggage and and will invite palpable rejection as concepts. This is a fact. It is challenging particular notions of "subjective" and "intersubjective" However, if we begin within a dialogical awareness and acknowledge that using a term such as "surrender" will be read by most and rejected as implying "submission" and "domination" and "passivity" and "loosing the self", then the process that you and I are engaged in at this moment is the hermeneutical enactment of differentiating and "marking" the distinctions the distinctions between "surrender" and "submission" Jessica is asking us to pause and be reflective and consider this distinction. Rod, Jessica is working within a "tradition" [the Frankfurt School where she is in dialogue with Hegel, Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer. Her project is to "see through" the patterns of complimentary "twoness" [doer and done to giver and given to]. The term "surrender" is being used within this tradition. This term "surrender" [as exemplified in Stephen Mitchell's story of letting go of his "idea" of "a walk" to enter his daughter's enactment of "a walk" is central to Jessica's notion of living-in-truth. Yes, it invites further dialogue and will be misunderstood. It requires further dialogue. I could have tried to write an essay fully outlining the term "surrender" This word has sparked considerable response within the tradition of feminism. I could also she it being challenged as Eurocentric or too psychological [emphasizing both accommodation and differentiation]. Posting to the listserve and inviting commentary and further questions on the term "surrender" is another approach. I also hoped to find a "bridge" to Kris' understanding of "third space" and her exploration of intersubjective testimonio as hybrid co-creative mutual rhythmic patterns forming within third spaces. I see a quality of "surrender" [as Jessica uses the term] in Kris' exploration of third spaces. Vygotsky explores internalized "self-regulation" as a developmental task. Jessica suggests the development of self regulation moves through asymmetrical accommodation AND differentiation. For Jessica this psychological development [if it is to form third spaces] requires asymmetrical agentic active "surrender" as a way beyond a struggle to the death of complimentary twoness. In summary, I understand Jessica's work as an aspect of cultural historical understanding, that includes social theory of emotions and cognition and culture that is historical. The term "surrender" is a discursive and dialogical form of enactment. It was offered in the spirit of open ended dialogue but I was aware and took a chance in using the word "surrender" Another word would have been less controversial but I do question if being misunderstood and then requiring further clarification is an approach with some value. I do not intend the use of "surrender" as an alternative approach to cultural historical theory. The use of this term is meant in a spirit of dialogue and the "piety" of questions inviting answers. Rod, in the way I presented the term "surrender", I may have elaborated further, and clarified more, but I was not sure if there were others who shared an interest in this topic of complimentary twoness and co-creative thirdness. I was interested in going deeper into understanding "third spaces" and by posting was feeling my way in by probing the level of interest. Larry On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > Larry, > As I said, I like Benjamin's distinction between surrender and submission > but I also think that it is not so simple to introduce new shadings of > meaning to a word/concept which is already part of people's vocabulary. For > most people, outside the group of those who know about Benjamin's work, > surrender WILL still carry felt associations with unwillingly giving up > ownership or control of something prized/valued. This is bound to result > in miscommunication unless those who use surrender in its new sense signal > and explain this use. I think an awareness of how we can expect others to > react (body, mind and soul) is a core aspect of communication and ethical > behaviour. We can't just occupy that third space and expect others to > surrender to the meanings we want to introduce! > > Rod > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: Larry Purss > Sent: 19/01/2015 01:29 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > Miguel, > The article I have been referencing is from Jessica Benjamin's article > "Beyond Doer and Done To: An Intersubjective View of Thirdness" There is > an extensive bibliography . Interestingly Jessica's dissertation was > written in 1978 with the title, "Internalization and Instrumental Culture: > A Reinterpretation of Psychoanalysis and Social Theory" > Rod, > Jessica references Colwyn Trevarthen as a source of her notion of > "surrender". Yes, this word will make some uncomfortable, but this term > must be seen as clearly differentiated from the notion of "submission" > which Jessica believes are often conflated. I view "surrender" as Jessica > uses the term as an "agentic" act that is ethical. It is an act [or > enactment] which is felt as expansive, not as restrictive of "self" > I am going to share a quote from Jessica's paper that she offered to > differentiate the palpable difference between "surrender" and "submission". > She is quoting Stephen Mitchell who is a key person in developing > relational and hermeneutical psychoanalysis. > Mitchell wrote: > > When my older daughter was about two or so, I remember my excitement at the > prospect [LP-imaginal] of taking walks with her, given her new ambulatory > skills and her intense interest in being outdoors. However, I soon found > these walks agonizingly slow. My idea of a walk entailed brisk movement > along a road or path. Her idea was quite different. The implication of > this difference hit me one day when we encountered a fallen tree on the > side of the road.... > The rest of the "walk" was spent exploring the fungal and insect life on, > under, and around the tree. I remember my sudden realization that these > walks would be no fun for me, merely a parental duty, if I held onto my > idea of walks. As I was able to give that up and SURRENDER to my > daughter's rhythm and focus, a different type of experience opened up to > me..... If I had simply RESTRAINED myself out of duty, I would have > experienced the walk as a compliance. But I was able to become my > daughter's version of a good companion and to find in THAT another way for > me to be that took on great personal meaning" [Benjamin, page 26] > > For Benjamin and Mitchell this quote expresses the principle of necessary > asymmetry, by accommodating to the other as a way of "generating" > thirdness. and within the "surrendering" the person is transformed, through > opening up to mutual pleasure. > > Jessica is asking how we distinguish between the compliance of "twoness" > from the transformational learning of thirdness. For Jessica the answer is > ethical, in the form of reflections on what will create intersubjective > connection in our relationship, and through this reflection, opening up to > surrender and transformation. This creative enactment expresses agency and > is not coerced. It is an ethical response. This "intention" to connect and > the resulting self-observation create what Jessical calls "moral > thirdness", the connection to a larger expansive connection beyond giver > and given to that is felt as palpably "right". > In all Jessica's work she is distinguishing "surrender" from "submission" > [including submitting to an "ideal" of "pure" empathy. which is a denial of > self and leads to complimentary doer and done to. > > For Jessica this moral third space is the space where "self-regulation" and > "co-regulation" meet. But that would require further elaboration. > Larry > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > Larry, > > > > Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's distinction > > between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I suspect that both terms > > might trigger associations for many which might make them uncomfortable > > about using them in these ways). Your observations about possibility > > (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and common > > experience might contribute to the building of richer and more extensive > > possibilities among a community or a group of people who spend time > > together (especially 'down' time, when they are more relaxed and their > > social guards are down). It is easier and more agreeable to 'surrender' > > into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social conversation > with > > no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to contribute > > to the co-construction of a third space which is shaped not so much by > the > > thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of interactions > > between them. This sort of surrendering into a group feels very different > > from submitting to the ordered, planned procedures of a 'getting things > > done' sort of meeting (though there is room for overlap). > > > > >From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very much like > > what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when baby and > > caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for the sake of > engaging > > with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the 'great we'). > > > > I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of our own and > > other selves moves in and out of this sort of third space. Vera captured > > some lovely aspects of this in her book 'Creative Collaboration' - how > the > > 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates the > > possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. > > > > All the best, > > > > Rod > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > > Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > > > Rod, I concur with your interpretations. > > I would add to your comment: > > > > In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt > > others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind > them > > that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks at > > first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > > > > The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others > > expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's internalized > > "scripts". > > This is exploring "my" act and your return act. > > > > Third space notions ask or question if there are "intersubjective" ways > to > > enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal > "potential" > > places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not yet exist > > but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of "posse" [meaning > > can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a "transformation" through > activities > > [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared realm". > > > > This way of understanding is playing with notions of metaphorical and > > imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared potential > > spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third spaces of > "possibility" > > within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which things are > > not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, categorized, predictable, > and > > with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". > > > > What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of "intersubjective" > > mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. > > > > Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" to > "exist" > > in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other as > things > > or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced being reduced > > by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and collapses into > > complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or "doer and done to" > > Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" and > > "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic "third" that > > which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" > > The third space must be enacted performed or take action but moving out > > from within this imaginal shared space. > > > > This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" becoming > > actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no absolute freedom > > fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint fundamentally. > > However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal symbolic > > shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This in no way means > > "submit" > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > > I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly conscious > > > of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been explored. > > > > > > In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a > > > significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that it > > > should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking example > > > of what we all do every day when we make choices about how we will > > > represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of clothes, how we do our > > > hair, what we smell like, how we stand and walk, how we greet people > > > etc. all play off our knowledge of what different choices are likely > > > to be taken to mean (by different groups of people). I think this > > > links to what Larry (I think) was saying about the concept-y-ness of > > > the context-y environment in which babies play their way into meanings. > > > > > > In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt > > > others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind > > > them that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what > > > looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > > > > > > I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised cultural > > > knowledge which informs our choices about how we will present > > > ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) feeling of > > > ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing how we are > > > 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. When the > > > rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy to join in but > > > when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we need to watch from the > > > periphery for a while before we presume to know what we are doing. > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > Rod > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > ] > > > On Behalf Of Larry Purss > > > Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > > > > > Mike, > > > You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social > > > emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" rhythmic > > > modalities. > > > Thought and language and the figural within enactments [performances] > > > > > > You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it is > > > a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to explore > > > what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and cognitive > > > enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" > > > The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring > > > enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the > > > "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a more > > metaphorical enactment. > > > Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is > > > the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the > > > world as "possibility". > > > In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a > > > "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted brings > > into "actuality" > > > the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a > > > possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person and > > > enacting this alternative possible "scene". > > > The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable felt > > > experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and becomes > > > "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane was acting > > > from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" internal or > > external? > > > or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? > > > Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] presence > > > [both internal imagining and external performances] there are always > > > palpable felt experiences and every "interpretation" is guided by > > > these multi-modal ways of understanding. > > > > > > Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and > > > "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable felt > > > experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic dimension as > > > "potential" or "transitional" spaces > > > > > > The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces is > > > there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is often > > > marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular "type" of > > > rationality and thinking. > > > > > > What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third > > spaces" > > > is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is included > > > and who is excluded. > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about > > > > what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I > > > > think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am > > > > wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). > > > > > > > > We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my > > > > wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill > > > > health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. > > > > Balance is an issue for her. > > > > > > > > When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that > > > > she was carrying a large staff. > > > > I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! > > > > and gave her a big hug." > > > > > > > > Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, > > > > she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became a perons > > > > to others. People constantly started up conversations with her and, > > > > being a skilled conversationalist interested in people, it made her > > > > feel like a whole person. > > > > > > > > Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a > > tool? > > > > Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as > well. > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Miguel, Rod, > > > > > > > > > > I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other > > > > > thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see > > > > > these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that > > > > > contrast with > > > "twoness" > > > > > [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and > > > > learner, > > > > > etc.] > > > > > Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby > > > > watcher's I > > > > > was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream > > > > > in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language > > > > > in his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow > > > > > Atwood, and Donna Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do > > > > > not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as > > > > > bothDaniel Stern > > > > and > > > > > Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > > > > > In Jessica's words: > > > > > "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as > > > > > growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the > > > > > other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that require > > > > > mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a > > > pleasure and not a chore" > > > > > > > > > > Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and > > > > > other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. > > > > > My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and > > > > > rhythmicity] are felt to be > > > > in > > > > > sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there > > > > > are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to > > > > > understanding > > > > we > > > > > may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our > > > > > primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt > > > experience. > > > > > Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle > > > > > for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" > > > > > Her > > > > project > > > > > is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for > > > > > expressing this struggle for recognition. > > > > > She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for > > > > > recognition is through a developmental trajectory of > > > > > intersubjective development of thirdness. > > > > > > > > > > Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging > > > > > sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" > > > > > the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as > > > > > this analytic kernel > > > > is > > > > > one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are > > > > > alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by > > > > > objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" > > > [with the mind's eye?]. > > > > > > > > > > Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a > > > > > father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures > > > > > to another > > > > dimension, > > > > > another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. > > > > > I > > > > would > > > > > like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can > > > > > offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing > > > > > the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your > > > > > notion of > > > > "intersecting" > > > > > multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across > > > > verses] > > > > > truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > > > > > > > > > > Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of > > > > learning > > > > > [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways > > > > > of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of > > > > > concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the > > > > > children were able to join > > > > in > > > > > WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able > > > > > to > > > > explain > > > > > what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or > > > > "context" > > > > > in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and > > > > > historically situated. > > > > > What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, > > > > > Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are > > > > > indicating is the > > > > centrality > > > > > of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also > > > > > profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. > > > > > Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this > > > > > does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and > > > > > a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y > > > > > and > > > > institutionalized > > > > > and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we > > > > > ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? > > > > > > > > > > "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > > > > > understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically > > > > > co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" > > > > > AS potentially liberating contexts. > > > > > > > > > > Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two > > > > > basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is > > > > > to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in > > > > > understanding the notion > > > > of > > > > > "recognition". > > > > > As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and > > > > > done > > > > to > > > > > or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" > > > > within > > > > > thirdness. > > > > > THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > > > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not > > > the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > > > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > > it. > > > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > > > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > > > accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to > > > scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > > > responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this > > > email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services > > > unless accompanied by an official order form. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > it. > > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan > emails > > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > > by an official order form. > > > > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Jan 19 16:38:39 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 17:38:39 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> Larry, Do you think it?s sad-masochistic of me to suggest that we give submission a chance? Unanalyzed, ?submission?, not even a suggestion of a hyphen, as a juicy chunk, I think of Islam, or what I know of it through a hodge podge of media and friendships. But break it down, without even going to the dictionary, ?sub-mission? has the ring of commitment to a project. As a legal term, my dictionary has ?submission? as ?an agreement between parties involved in a dispute?. Here?s more from the semantic cluster: A synonym for ?submission? is ?yield?, from the Middle English. It?s worth mashing up latinate and germanic etymology and morphology to set up mnemonics for the discourse. So, when, if ever, is it good to ?submit?, ?give in?? I submit to the good will of la gente of this chat. There?s gotta be respect and trust. Among other things, that means it has to be voluntary and de buena voluntad. And transparent? Let me suggest a prototypical narrative of submission: Motherhood. Giving birth and all of that jazz. Creativity with a capital ?C?. Here?s another: death. Everything in between is up for grabs I guess. Probably lots of diversity as they say in the game. Please, chatters, don?t feel the need to respond. I?ll take silence as good sign. Like, you?re listening politely. Submissively Henry > On Jan 19, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > Rod, > In the spirit of your caution and acknowledging its truth value, I want to > say I was hesitant to use the term "surrender" for how it would be > misunderstood. In a similar way to the misunderstandings of the term > "mind". > > I will mention that Jessica is consciously using the word "surrender" as > NOT "submission" as she tries to articulate a nypothesis that sees through > "domination" and the struggle to the death of complimentary "recognition" > I fully expect Jessica's work to instigate passionate responses. > Her work does develop from Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer, Fromm and the > Frankfurt school. > Jessica says we have conflated "surrender" with "submission" and Jessica's > use of the term "surrender" must be seen as being engaged in exploring [and > putting in play] notions of instrumental internalized "self-regulation" AND > notions of the "third space" as coming into being through "surrender" to a > place of potentiality and possibility that is moving "beyond" > self-assertion as a complimentary struggle to the death. > > Rod, the play of "active" and "receptive" thirds [in contrast to active and > passive twoness] is the place which Jessica is inviting us to occupy. > > Notions of "surrender" carry huge baggage and and will invite palpable > rejection as concepts. This is a fact. It is challenging particular notions > of "subjective" and "intersubjective" > However, if we begin within a dialogical awareness and acknowledge that > using a term such as "surrender" will be read by most and rejected as > implying "submission" and "domination" and "passivity" and "loosing the > self", then the process that you and I are engaged in at this moment is the > hermeneutical enactment of differentiating and "marking" the distinctions > the distinctions between "surrender" and "submission" Jessica is asking us > to pause and be reflective and consider this distinction. > > Rod, Jessica is working within a "tradition" [the Frankfurt School where > she is in dialogue with Hegel, Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer. Her project is > to "see through" the patterns of complimentary "twoness" [doer and done to > giver and given to]. The term "surrender" is being used within this > tradition. > > This term "surrender" [as exemplified in Stephen Mitchell's story > of letting go of his "idea" of "a walk" to enter his daughter's enactment > of "a walk" is central to Jessica's notion of living-in-truth. Yes, it > invites further dialogue and will be misunderstood. It requires further > dialogue. > > I could have tried to write an essay fully outlining the term "surrender" > This word has sparked considerable response within the tradition of > feminism. I could also she it being challenged as Eurocentric or too > psychological [emphasizing both accommodation and differentiation]. > > Posting to the listserve and inviting commentary and further questions on > the term "surrender" is another approach. > > I also hoped to find a "bridge" to Kris' understanding of "third space" and > her exploration of intersubjective testimonio as hybrid co-creative > mutual rhythmic patterns forming within third spaces. I see a quality of > "surrender" [as Jessica uses the term] in Kris' exploration of third > spaces. > > Vygotsky explores internalized "self-regulation" as a developmental task. > Jessica suggests the development of self regulation moves through > asymmetrical accommodation AND differentiation. For Jessica > this psychological development [if it is to form third spaces] requires > asymmetrical agentic active "surrender" as a way beyond a struggle to the > death of complimentary twoness. > In summary, I understand Jessica's work as an aspect of cultural > historical understanding, that includes social theory of emotions and > cognition and culture that is historical. > The term "surrender" is a discursive and dialogical form of enactment. > It was offered in the spirit of open ended dialogue but I was aware and > took a chance in using the word "surrender" Another word would have been > less controversial but I do question if being misunderstood and then > requiring further clarification is an approach with some value. > > I do not intend the use of "surrender" as an alternative approach to > cultural historical theory. > The use of this term is meant in a spirit of dialogue and the "piety" of > questions inviting answers. > Rod, in the way I presented the term "surrender", I may have elaborated > further, and clarified more, but I was not sure if there were others > who shared an interest in this topic of complimentary twoness and > co-creative thirdness. I was interested in going deeper into understanding > "third spaces" and by posting was feeling my way in by probing the level of > interest. > > Larry > > > > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >> Larry, >> As I said, I like Benjamin's distinction between surrender and submission >> but I also think that it is not so simple to introduce new shadings of >> meaning to a word/concept which is already part of people's vocabulary. For >> most people, outside the group of those who know about Benjamin's work, >> surrender WILL still carry felt associations with unwillingly giving up >> ownership or control of something prized/valued. This is bound to result >> in miscommunication unless those who use surrender in its new sense signal >> and explain this use. I think an awareness of how we can expect others to >> react (body, mind and soul) is a core aspect of communication and ethical >> behaviour. We can't just occupy that third space and expect others to >> surrender to the meanings we want to introduce! >> >> Rod >> >> Sent from my Windows Phone >> ________________________________ >> From: Larry Purss >> Sent: 19/01/2015 01:29 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >> >> Miguel, >> The article I have been referencing is from Jessica Benjamin's article >> "Beyond Doer and Done To: An Intersubjective View of Thirdness" There is >> an extensive bibliography . Interestingly Jessica's dissertation was >> written in 1978 with the title, "Internalization and Instrumental Culture: >> A Reinterpretation of Psychoanalysis and Social Theory" >> Rod, >> Jessica references Colwyn Trevarthen as a source of her notion of >> "surrender". Yes, this word will make some uncomfortable, but this term >> must be seen as clearly differentiated from the notion of "submission" >> which Jessica believes are often conflated. I view "surrender" as Jessica >> uses the term as an "agentic" act that is ethical. It is an act [or >> enactment] which is felt as expansive, not as restrictive of "self" >> I am going to share a quote from Jessica's paper that she offered to >> differentiate the palpable difference between "surrender" and "submission". >> She is quoting Stephen Mitchell who is a key person in developing >> relational and hermeneutical psychoanalysis. >> Mitchell wrote: >> >> When my older daughter was about two or so, I remember my excitement at the >> prospect [LP-imaginal] of taking walks with her, given her new ambulatory >> skills and her intense interest in being outdoors. However, I soon found >> these walks agonizingly slow. My idea of a walk entailed brisk movement >> along a road or path. Her idea was quite different. The implication of >> this difference hit me one day when we encountered a fallen tree on the >> side of the road.... >> The rest of the "walk" was spent exploring the fungal and insect life on, >> under, and around the tree. I remember my sudden realization that these >> walks would be no fun for me, merely a parental duty, if I held onto my >> idea of walks. As I was able to give that up and SURRENDER to my >> daughter's rhythm and focus, a different type of experience opened up to >> me..... If I had simply RESTRAINED myself out of duty, I would have >> experienced the walk as a compliance. But I was able to become my >> daughter's version of a good companion and to find in THAT another way for >> me to be that took on great personal meaning" [Benjamin, page 26] >> >> For Benjamin and Mitchell this quote expresses the principle of necessary >> asymmetry, by accommodating to the other as a way of "generating" >> thirdness. and within the "surrendering" the person is transformed, through >> opening up to mutual pleasure. >> >> Jessica is asking how we distinguish between the compliance of "twoness" >> from the transformational learning of thirdness. For Jessica the answer is >> ethical, in the form of reflections on what will create intersubjective >> connection in our relationship, and through this reflection, opening up to >> surrender and transformation. This creative enactment expresses agency and >> is not coerced. It is an ethical response. This "intention" to connect and >> the resulting self-observation create what Jessical calls "moral >> thirdness", the connection to a larger expansive connection beyond giver >> and given to that is felt as palpably "right". >> In all Jessica's work she is distinguishing "surrender" from "submission" >> [including submitting to an "ideal" of "pure" empathy. which is a denial of >> self and leads to complimentary doer and done to. >> >> For Jessica this moral third space is the space where "self-regulation" and >> "co-regulation" meet. But that would require further elaboration. >> Larry >> >> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >> >>> Larry, >>> >>> Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's distinction >>> between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I suspect that both terms >>> might trigger associations for many which might make them uncomfortable >>> about using them in these ways). Your observations about possibility >>> (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and common >>> experience might contribute to the building of richer and more extensive >>> possibilities among a community or a group of people who spend time >>> together (especially 'down' time, when they are more relaxed and their >>> social guards are down). It is easier and more agreeable to 'surrender' >>> into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social conversation >> with >>> no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to contribute >>> to the co-construction of a third space which is shaped not so much by >> the >>> thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of interactions >>> between them. This sort of surrendering into a group feels very different >>> from submitting to the ordered, planned procedures of a 'getting things >>> done' sort of meeting (though there is room for overlap). >>> >>>> From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very much like >>> what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when baby and >>> caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for the sake of >> engaging >>> with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the 'great we'). >>> >>> I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of our own and >>> other selves moves in and out of this sort of third space. Vera captured >>> some lovely aspects of this in her book 'Creative Collaboration' - how >> the >>> 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates the >>> possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Rod >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss >>> Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >>> >>> Rod, I concur with your interpretations. >>> I would add to your comment: >>> >>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt >>> others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind >> them >>> that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks at >>> first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! >>> >>> The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others >>> expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's internalized >>> "scripts". >>> This is exploring "my" act and your return act. >>> >>> Third space notions ask or question if there are "intersubjective" ways >> to >>> enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal >> "potential" >>> places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not yet exist >>> but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of "posse" [meaning >>> can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a "transformation" through >> activities >>> [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared realm". >>> >>> This way of understanding is playing with notions of metaphorical and >>> imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared potential >>> spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third spaces of >> "possibility" >>> within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which things are >>> not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, categorized, predictable, >> and >>> with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". >>> >>> What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of "intersubjective" >>> mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. >>> >>> Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" to >> "exist" >>> in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other as >> things >>> or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced being reduced >>> by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and collapses into >>> complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or "doer and done to" >>> Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" and >>> "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic "third" that >>> which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" >>> The third space must be enacted performed or take action but moving out >>> from within this imaginal shared space. >>> >>> This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" becoming >>> actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no absolute freedom >>> fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint fundamentally. >>> However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal symbolic >>> shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This in no way means >>> "submit" >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < >>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly conscious >>>> of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been explored. >>>> >>>> In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a >>>> significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that it >>>> should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking example >>>> of what we all do every day when we make choices about how we will >>>> represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of clothes, how we do our >>>> hair, what we smell like, how we stand and walk, how we greet people >>>> etc. all play off our knowledge of what different choices are likely >>>> to be taken to mean (by different groups of people). I think this >>>> links to what Larry (I think) was saying about the concept-y-ness of >>>> the context-y environment in which babies play their way into meanings. >>>> >>>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt >>>> others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind >>>> them that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what >>>> looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! >>>> >>>> I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised cultural >>>> knowledge which informs our choices about how we will present >>>> ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) feeling of >>>> ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing how we are >>>> 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. When the >>>> rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy to join in but >>>> when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we need to watch from the >>>> periphery for a while before we presume to know what we are doing. >>>> >>>> All the best, >>>> >>>> Rod >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> ] >>>> On Behalf Of Larry Purss >>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >>>> >>>> Mike, >>>> You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social >>>> emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" rhythmic >>>> modalities. >>>> Thought and language and the figural within enactments [performances] >>>> >>>> You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it is >>>> a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to explore >>>> what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and cognitive >>>> enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" >>>> The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring >>>> enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the >>>> "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a more >>> metaphorical enactment. >>>> Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is >>>> the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the >>>> world as "possibility". >>>> In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a >>>> "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted brings >>> into "actuality" >>>> the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a >>>> possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person and >>>> enacting this alternative possible "scene". >>>> The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable felt >>>> experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and becomes >>>> "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane was acting >>>> from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" internal or >>> external? >>>> or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? >>>> Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] presence >>>> [both internal imagining and external performances] there are always >>>> palpable felt experiences and every "interpretation" is guided by >>>> these multi-modal ways of understanding. >>>> >>>> Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and >>>> "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable felt >>>> experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic dimension as >>>> "potential" or "transitional" spaces >>>> >>>> The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces is >>>> there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is often >>>> marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular "type" of >>>> rationality and thinking. >>>> >>>> What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third >>> spaces" >>>> is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is included >>>> and who is excluded. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>>> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about >>>>> what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I >>>>> think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am >>>>> wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). >>>>> >>>>> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my >>>>> wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill >>>>> health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. >>>>> Balance is an issue for her. >>>>> >>>>> When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that >>>>> she was carrying a large staff. >>>>> I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! >>>>> and gave her a big hug." >>>>> >>>>> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, >>>>> she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became a perons >>>>> to others. People constantly started up conversations with her and, >>>>> being a skilled conversationalist interested in people, it made her >>>>> feel like a whole person. >>>>> >>>>> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a >>> tool? >>>>> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as >> well. >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Miguel, Rod, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other >>>>>> thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see >>>>>> these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that >>>>>> contrast with >>>> "twoness" >>>>>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and >>>>> learner, >>>>>> etc.] >>>>>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby >>>>> watcher's I >>>>>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream >>>>>> in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language >>>>>> in his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow >>>>>> Atwood, and Donna Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do >>>>>> not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as >>>>>> bothDaniel Stern >>>>> and >>>>>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. >>>>>> In Jessica's words: >>>>>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as >>>>>> growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the >>>>>> other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that require >>>>>> mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a >>>> pleasure and not a chore" >>>>>> >>>>>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and >>>>>> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. >>>>>> My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and >>>>>> rhythmicity] are felt to be >>>>> in >>>>>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there >>>>>> are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to >>>>>> understanding >>>>> we >>>>>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our >>>>>> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt >>>> experience. >>>>>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle >>>>>> for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" >>>>>> Her >>>>> project >>>>>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for >>>>>> expressing this struggle for recognition. >>>>>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for >>>>>> recognition is through a developmental trajectory of >>>>>> intersubjective development of thirdness. >>>>>> >>>>>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging >>>>>> sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" >>>>>> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as >>>>>> this analytic kernel >>>>> is >>>>>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are >>>>>> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by >>>>>> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" >>>> [with the mind's eye?]. >>>>>> >>>>>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a >>>>>> father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures >>>>>> to another >>>>> dimension, >>>>>> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. >>>>>> I >>>>> would >>>>>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can >>>>>> offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing >>>>>> the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your >>>>>> notion of >>>>> "intersecting" >>>>>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across >>>>> verses] >>>>>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" >>>>>> >>>>>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of >>>>> learning >>>>>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways >>>>>> of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of >>>>>> concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the >>>>>> children were able to join >>>>> in >>>>>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able >>>>>> to >>>>> explain >>>>>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or >>>>> "context" >>>>>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and >>>>>> historically situated. >>>>>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, >>>>>> Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are >>>>>> indicating is the >>>>> centrality >>>>>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also >>>>>> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. >>>>>> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this >>>>>> does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and >>>>>> a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y >>>>>> and >>>>> institutionalized >>>>>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we >>>>>> ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? >>>>>> >>>>>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new >>>>>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically >>>>>> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" >>>>>> AS potentially liberating contexts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two >>>>>> basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is >>>>>> to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in >>>>>> understanding the notion >>>>> of >>>>>> "recognition". >>>>>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and >>>>>> done >>>>> to >>>>>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" >>>>> within >>>>>> thirdness. >>>>>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >>>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >>>> >>>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely >>>> for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not >>>> the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the >>>> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on >>> it. >>>> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >>>> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not >>>> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University >>>> accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to >>>> scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept >>>> responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this >>>> email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services >>>> unless accompanied by an official order form. >>>> >>>> >>> ________________________________ >>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >>> >>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for >>> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the >>> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the >>> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on >> it. >>> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >>> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not >>> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts >>> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan >> emails >>> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility >>> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its >>> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied >>> by an official order form. >>> >>> >> ________________________________ >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >> >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for >> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the >> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the >> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. >> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not >> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts >> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails >> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility >> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its >> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied >> by an official order form. >> >> From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Jan 19 18:15:33 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 18:15:33 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am listening politely, Henry. I am guessing that from a CHAT point of view (I am making this up as I go along), every time we choose a word to speak or a tool to fix our car with, we must submit to the specialized constraints of using that particular means of achieving the end-in-mind. ?I do not want to start another subject line here, because I think they are connected, but if someone has time to respond to my suggestion that the old lady and the staff story might be interpreted as her use of the method of dual stimulation. She subordinated herself to the conditions of using a large staff instead of a handy cane, and thereby transformed herself by transforming the way others responded to her. Any takers? Wrong headed? Has potential? ? ?mike? On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 4:38 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Larry, > Do you think it?s sad-masochistic of me to suggest that we give submission > a chance? Unanalyzed, ?submission?, not even a suggestion of a hyphen, as > a juicy chunk, I think of Islam, or what I know of it through a hodge podge > of media and friendships. But break it down, without even going to the > dictionary, ?sub-mission? has the ring of commitment to a project. As a > legal term, my dictionary has ?submission? as ?an agreement between parties > involved in a dispute?. Here?s more from the semantic cluster: A synonym > for ?submission? is ?yield?, from the Middle English. It?s worth mashing up > latinate and germanic etymology and morphology to set up mnemonics for the > discourse. So, when, if ever, is it good to ?submit?, ?give in?? I submit > to the good will of la gente of this chat. There?s gotta be respect and > trust. Among other things, that means it has to be voluntary and de buena > voluntad. And transparent? Let me suggest a prototypical narrative of > submission: Motherhood. Giving birth and all of that jazz. Creativity with > a capital ?C?. Here?s another: death. Everything in between is up for grabs > I guess. Probably lots of diversity as they say in the game. Please, > chatters, don?t feel the need to respond. I?ll take silence as good sign. > Like, you?re listening politely. > Submissively > Henry > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > Rod, > > In the spirit of your caution and acknowledging its truth value, I want > to > > say I was hesitant to use the term "surrender" for how it would be > > misunderstood. In a similar way to the misunderstandings of the term > > "mind". > > > > I will mention that Jessica is consciously using the word "surrender" as > > NOT "submission" as she tries to articulate a nypothesis that sees > through > > "domination" and the struggle to the death of complimentary "recognition" > > I fully expect Jessica's work to instigate passionate responses. > > Her work does develop from Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer, Fromm and the > > Frankfurt school. > > Jessica says we have conflated "surrender" with "submission" and > Jessica's > > use of the term "surrender" must be seen as being engaged in exploring > [and > > putting in play] notions of instrumental internalized "self-regulation" > AND > > notions of the "third space" as coming into being through "surrender" to > a > > place of potentiality and possibility that is moving "beyond" > > self-assertion as a complimentary struggle to the death. > > > > Rod, the play of "active" and "receptive" thirds [in contrast to active > and > > passive twoness] is the place which Jessica is inviting us to occupy. > > > > Notions of "surrender" carry huge baggage and and will invite palpable > > rejection as concepts. This is a fact. It is challenging particular > notions > > of "subjective" and "intersubjective" > > However, if we begin within a dialogical awareness and acknowledge that > > using a term such as "surrender" will be read by most and rejected as > > implying "submission" and "domination" and "passivity" and "loosing the > > self", then the process that you and I are engaged in at this moment is > the > > hermeneutical enactment of differentiating and "marking" the distinctions > > the distinctions between "surrender" and "submission" Jessica is asking > us > > to pause and be reflective and consider this distinction. > > > > Rod, Jessica is working within a "tradition" [the Frankfurt School where > > she is in dialogue with Hegel, Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer. Her project > is > > to "see through" the patterns of complimentary "twoness" [doer and done > to > > giver and given to]. The term "surrender" is being used within this > > tradition. > > > > This term "surrender" [as exemplified in Stephen Mitchell's story > > of letting go of his "idea" of "a walk" to enter his daughter's enactment > > of "a walk" is central to Jessica's notion of living-in-truth. Yes, it > > invites further dialogue and will be misunderstood. It requires further > > dialogue. > > > > I could have tried to write an essay fully outlining the term "surrender" > > This word has sparked considerable response within the tradition of > > feminism. I could also she it being challenged as Eurocentric or too > > psychological [emphasizing both accommodation and differentiation]. > > > > Posting to the listserve and inviting commentary and further questions on > > the term "surrender" is another approach. > > > > I also hoped to find a "bridge" to Kris' understanding of "third space" > and > > her exploration of intersubjective testimonio as hybrid co-creative > > mutual rhythmic patterns forming within third spaces. I see a quality of > > "surrender" [as Jessica uses the term] in Kris' exploration of third > > spaces. > > > > Vygotsky explores internalized "self-regulation" as a developmental task. > > Jessica suggests the development of self regulation moves through > > asymmetrical accommodation AND differentiation. For Jessica > > this psychological development [if it is to form third spaces] requires > > asymmetrical agentic active "surrender" as a way beyond a struggle to the > > death of complimentary twoness. > > In summary, I understand Jessica's work as an aspect of cultural > > historical understanding, that includes social theory of emotions and > > cognition and culture that is historical. > > The term "surrender" is a discursive and dialogical form of enactment. > > It was offered in the spirit of open ended dialogue but I was aware and > > took a chance in using the word "surrender" Another word would have been > > less controversial but I do question if being misunderstood and then > > requiring further clarification is an approach with some value. > > > > I do not intend the use of "surrender" as an alternative approach to > > cultural historical theory. > > The use of this term is meant in a spirit of dialogue and the "piety" of > > questions inviting answers. > > Rod, in the way I presented the term "surrender", I may have elaborated > > further, and clarified more, but I was not sure if there were others > > who shared an interest in this topic of complimentary twoness and > > co-creative thirdness. I was interested in going deeper into > understanding > > "third spaces" and by posting was feeling my way in by probing the level > of > > interest. > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > >> Larry, > >> As I said, I like Benjamin's distinction between surrender and > submission > >> but I also think that it is not so simple to introduce new shadings of > >> meaning to a word/concept which is already part of people's vocabulary. > For > >> most people, outside the group of those who know about Benjamin's work, > >> surrender WILL still carry felt associations with unwillingly giving up > >> ownership or control of something prized/valued. This is bound to result > >> in miscommunication unless those who use surrender in its new sense > signal > >> and explain this use. I think an awareness of how we can expect others > to > >> react (body, mind and soul) is a core aspect of communication and > ethical > >> behaviour. We can't just occupy that third space and expect others to > >> surrender to the meanings we want to introduce! > >> > >> Rod > >> > >> Sent from my Windows Phone > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Larry Purss > >> Sent: 19/01/2015 01:29 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > >> > >> Miguel, > >> The article I have been referencing is from Jessica Benjamin's article > >> "Beyond Doer and Done To: An Intersubjective View of Thirdness" There > is > >> an extensive bibliography . Interestingly Jessica's dissertation was > >> written in 1978 with the title, "Internalization and Instrumental > Culture: > >> A Reinterpretation of Psychoanalysis and Social Theory" > >> Rod, > >> Jessica references Colwyn Trevarthen as a source of her notion of > >> "surrender". Yes, this word will make some uncomfortable, but this term > >> must be seen as clearly differentiated from the notion of "submission" > >> which Jessica believes are often conflated. I view "surrender" as > Jessica > >> uses the term as an "agentic" act that is ethical. It is an act [or > >> enactment] which is felt as expansive, not as restrictive of "self" > >> I am going to share a quote from Jessica's paper that she offered to > >> differentiate the palpable difference between "surrender" and > "submission". > >> She is quoting Stephen Mitchell who is a key person in developing > >> relational and hermeneutical psychoanalysis. > >> Mitchell wrote: > >> > >> When my older daughter was about two or so, I remember my excitement at > the > >> prospect [LP-imaginal] of taking walks with her, given her new > ambulatory > >> skills and her intense interest in being outdoors. However, I soon > found > >> these walks agonizingly slow. My idea of a walk entailed brisk movement > >> along a road or path. Her idea was quite different. The implication of > >> this difference hit me one day when we encountered a fallen tree on the > >> side of the road.... > >> The rest of the "walk" was spent exploring the fungal and insect life > on, > >> under, and around the tree. I remember my sudden realization that these > >> walks would be no fun for me, merely a parental duty, if I held onto my > >> idea of walks. As I was able to give that up and SURRENDER to my > >> daughter's rhythm and focus, a different type of experience opened up to > >> me..... If I had simply RESTRAINED myself out of duty, I would have > >> experienced the walk as a compliance. But I was able to become my > >> daughter's version of a good companion and to find in THAT another way > for > >> me to be that took on great personal meaning" [Benjamin, page 26] > >> > >> For Benjamin and Mitchell this quote expresses the principle of > necessary > >> asymmetry, by accommodating to the other as a way of "generating" > >> thirdness. and within the "surrendering" the person is transformed, > through > >> opening up to mutual pleasure. > >> > >> Jessica is asking how we distinguish between the compliance of "twoness" > >> from the transformational learning of thirdness. For Jessica the answer > is > >> ethical, in the form of reflections on what will create intersubjective > >> connection in our relationship, and through this reflection, opening up > to > >> surrender and transformation. This creative enactment expresses agency > and > >> is not coerced. It is an ethical response. This "intention" to connect > and > >> the resulting self-observation create what Jessical calls "moral > >> thirdness", the connection to a larger expansive connection beyond giver > >> and given to that is felt as palpably "right". > >> In all Jessica's work she is distinguishing "surrender" from > "submission" > >> [including submitting to an "ideal" of "pure" empathy. which is a > denial of > >> self and leads to complimentary doer and done to. > >> > >> For Jessica this moral third space is the space where "self-regulation" > and > >> "co-regulation" meet. But that would require further elaboration. > >> Larry > >> > >> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >> > >>> Larry, > >>> > >>> Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's > distinction > >>> between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I suspect that both > terms > >>> might trigger associations for many which might make them uncomfortable > >>> about using them in these ways). Your observations about possibility > >>> (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and common > >>> experience might contribute to the building of richer and more > extensive > >>> possibilities among a community or a group of people who spend time > >>> together (especially 'down' time, when they are more relaxed and their > >>> social guards are down). It is easier and more agreeable to 'surrender' > >>> into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social conversation > >> with > >>> no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to > contribute > >>> to the co-construction of a third space which is shaped not so much by > >> the > >>> thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of interactions > >>> between them. This sort of surrendering into a group feels very > different > >>> from submitting to the ordered, planned procedures of a 'getting things > >>> done' sort of meeting (though there is room for overlap). > >>> > >>>> From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very much > like > >>> what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when baby and > >>> caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for the sake of > >> engaging > >>> with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the 'great we'). > >>> > >>> I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of our own > and > >>> other selves moves in and out of this sort of third space. Vera > captured > >>> some lovely aspects of this in her book 'Creative Collaboration' - how > >> the > >>> 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates the > >>> possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. > >>> > >>> All the best, > >>> > >>> Rod > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > >>> Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > >>> > >>> Rod, I concur with your interpretations. > >>> I would add to your comment: > >>> > >>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt > >>> others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind > >> them > >>> that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks at > >>> first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > >>> > >>> The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others > >>> expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's internalized > >>> "scripts". > >>> This is exploring "my" act and your return act. > >>> > >>> Third space notions ask or question if there are "intersubjective" ways > >> to > >>> enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal > >> "potential" > >>> places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not yet exist > >>> but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of "posse" [meaning > >>> can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a "transformation" through > >> activities > >>> [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared realm". > >>> > >>> This way of understanding is playing with notions of metaphorical and > >>> imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared potential > >>> spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third spaces of > >> "possibility" > >>> within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which things > are > >>> not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, categorized, predictable, > >> and > >>> with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". > >>> > >>> What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of "intersubjective" > >>> mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. > >>> > >>> Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" to > >> "exist" > >>> in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other as > >> things > >>> or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced being > reduced > >>> by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and collapses into > >>> complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or "doer and done to" > >>> Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" and > >>> "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic "third" > that > >>> which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" > >>> The third space must be enacted performed or take action but moving out > >>> from within this imaginal shared space. > >>> > >>> This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" becoming > >>> actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no absolute freedom > >>> fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint fundamentally. > >>> However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal symbolic > >>> shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This in no way means > >>> "submit" > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > >>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >>> > >>>> I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly conscious > >>>> of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been explored. > >>>> > >>>> In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a > >>>> significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that it > >>>> should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking example > >>>> of what we all do every day when we make choices about how we will > >>>> represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of clothes, how we do our > >>>> hair, what we smell like, how we stand and walk, how we greet people > >>>> etc. all play off our knowledge of what different choices are likely > >>>> to be taken to mean (by different groups of people). I think this > >>>> links to what Larry (I think) was saying about the concept-y-ness of > >>>> the context-y environment in which babies play their way into > meanings. > >>>> > >>>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt > >>>> others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind > >>>> them that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what > >>>> looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > >>>> > >>>> I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised cultural > >>>> knowledge which informs our choices about how we will present > >>>> ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) feeling of > >>>> ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing how we are > >>>> 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. When the > >>>> rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy to join in but > >>>> when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we need to watch from the > >>>> periphery for a while before we presume to know what we are doing. > >>>> > >>>> All the best, > >>>> > >>>> Rod > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees= > plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>> ] > >>>> On Behalf Of Larry Purss > >>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > >>>> > >>>> Mike, > >>>> You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social > >>>> emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" rhythmic > >>>> modalities. > >>>> Thought and language and the figural within enactments [performances] > >>>> > >>>> You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it is > >>>> a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to explore > >>>> what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and cognitive > >>>> enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" > >>>> The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring > >>>> enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the > >>>> "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a more > >>> metaphorical enactment. > >>>> Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is > >>>> the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the > >>>> world as "possibility". > >>>> In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a > >>>> "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted brings > >>> into "actuality" > >>>> the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a > >>>> possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person and > >>>> enacting this alternative possible "scene". > >>>> The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable felt > >>>> experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and becomes > >>>> "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane was acting > >>>> from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" internal or > >>> external? > >>>> or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? > >>>> Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] presence > >>>> [both internal imagining and external performances] there are always > >>>> palpable felt experiences and every "interpretation" is guided by > >>>> these multi-modal ways of understanding. > >>>> > >>>> Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and > >>>> "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable felt > >>>> experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic dimension as > >>>> "potential" or "transitional" spaces > >>>> > >>>> The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces is > >>>> there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is often > >>>> marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular "type" of > >>>> rationality and thinking. > >>>> > >>>> What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third > >>> spaces" > >>>> is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is included > >>>> and who is excluded. > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about > >>>>> what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I > >>>>> think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am > >>>>> wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). > >>>>> > >>>>> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my > >>>>> wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill > >>>>> health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. > >>>>> Balance is an issue for her. > >>>>> > >>>>> When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that > >>>>> she was carrying a large staff. > >>>>> I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! > >>>>> and gave her a big hug." > >>>>> > >>>>> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, > >>>>> she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became a perons > >>>>> to others. People constantly started up conversations with her and, > >>>>> being a skilled conversationalist interested in people, it made her > >>>>> feel like a whole person. > >>>>> > >>>>> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a > >>> tool? > >>>>> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as > >> well. > >>>>> > >>>>> mike > >>>>> > >>>>> mike > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel, Rod, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other > >>>>>> thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see > >>>>>> these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that > >>>>>> contrast with > >>>> "twoness" > >>>>>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and > >>>>> learner, > >>>>>> etc.] > >>>>>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby > >>>>> watcher's I > >>>>>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream > >>>>>> in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language > >>>>>> in his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow > >>>>>> Atwood, and Donna Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do > >>>>>> not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as > >>>>>> bothDaniel Stern > >>>>> and > >>>>>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > >>>>>> In Jessica's words: > >>>>>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as > >>>>>> growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the > >>>>>> other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that require > >>>>>> mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a > >>>> pleasure and not a chore" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and > >>>>>> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. > >>>>>> My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and > >>>>>> rhythmicity] are felt to be > >>>>> in > >>>>>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there > >>>>>> are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to > >>>>>> understanding > >>>>> we > >>>>>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our > >>>>>> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt > >>>> experience. > >>>>>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle > >>>>>> for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" > >>>>>> Her > >>>>> project > >>>>>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for > >>>>>> expressing this struggle for recognition. > >>>>>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for > >>>>>> recognition is through a developmental trajectory of > >>>>>> intersubjective development of thirdness. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging > >>>>>> sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" > >>>>>> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as > >>>>>> this analytic kernel > >>>>> is > >>>>>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are > >>>>>> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by > >>>>>> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" > >>>> [with the mind's eye?]. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a > >>>>>> father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures > >>>>>> to another > >>>>> dimension, > >>>>>> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. > >>>>>> I > >>>>> would > >>>>>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can > >>>>>> offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing > >>>>>> the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your > >>>>>> notion of > >>>>> "intersecting" > >>>>>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across > >>>>> verses] > >>>>>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of > >>>>> learning > >>>>>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways > >>>>>> of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of > >>>>>> concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the > >>>>>> children were able to join > >>>>> in > >>>>>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able > >>>>>> to > >>>>> explain > >>>>>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or > >>>>> "context" > >>>>>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and > >>>>>> historically situated. > >>>>>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, > >>>>>> Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are > >>>>>> indicating is the > >>>>> centrality > >>>>>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also > >>>>>> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. > >>>>>> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this > >>>>>> does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and > >>>>>> a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y > >>>>>> and > >>>>> institutionalized > >>>>>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we > >>>>>> ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > >>>>>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically > >>>>>> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" > >>>>>> AS potentially liberating contexts. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two > >>>>>> basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is > >>>>>> to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in > >>>>>> understanding the notion > >>>>> of > >>>>>> "recognition". > >>>>>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and > >>>>>> done > >>>>> to > >>>>>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" > >>>>> within > >>>>>> thirdness. > >>>>>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > >>>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > >>>> > >>>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > >>>> for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not > >>>> the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > >>>> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely > on > >>> it. > >>>> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > >>>> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > >>>> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > >>>> accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to > >>>> scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > >>>> responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this > >>>> email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services > >>>> unless accompanied by an official order form. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > >>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > >>> > >>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > for > >>> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > >>> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > >>> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > >> it. > >>> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > >>> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > >>> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > accepts > >>> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan > >> emails > >>> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > responsibility > >>> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > >>> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless > accompanied > >>> by an official order form. > >>> > >>> > >> ________________________________ > >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > >> > >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > for > >> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > >> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > >> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > it. > >> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > >> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > >> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > accepts > >> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan > emails > >> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > responsibility > >> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > >> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless > accompanied > >> by an official order form. > >> > >> > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Jan 19 18:41:11 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 19:41:11 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0040ECB1-A129-4D8A-AF5D-3EE5E73CB78F@gmail.com> Mike, When you posted your conjecture the first time I thought, ?Makes sense to me.? I only failed to let you know I grok it. I love dual simulation, absolutely the best way to assess learning. Project-based learning with tools and signs. Respect and trust twixt learner and learner. No new thread. I?m in the groove here. Henry > On Jan 19, 2015, at 7:15 PM, mike cole wrote: > > I am listening politely, Henry. > > I am guessing that from a CHAT point of view (I am making this up as I go > along), every time we choose a word to speak or a tool to fix our car with, > we must submit to the specialized constraints of using that particular > means of achieving the end-in-mind. > > ?I do not want to start another subject line here, because I think they are > connected, but if someone has time to respond to my suggestion that the old > lady and the staff story might be interpreted as her use of the method of > dual stimulation. She subordinated herself to the conditions of using a > large staff instead of a handy cane, and thereby transformed herself by > transforming the way others responded to her. > > Any takers? Wrong headed? Has potential? > ? > ?mike? > > On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 4:38 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Larry, >> Do you think it?s sad-masochistic of me to suggest that we give submission >> a chance? Unanalyzed, ?submission?, not even a suggestion of a hyphen, as >> a juicy chunk, I think of Islam, or what I know of it through a hodge podge >> of media and friendships. But break it down, without even going to the >> dictionary, ?sub-mission? has the ring of commitment to a project. As a >> legal term, my dictionary has ?submission? as ?an agreement between parties >> involved in a dispute?. Here?s more from the semantic cluster: A synonym >> for ?submission? is ?yield?, from the Middle English. It?s worth mashing up >> latinate and germanic etymology and morphology to set up mnemonics for the >> discourse. So, when, if ever, is it good to ?submit?, ?give in?? I submit >> to the good will of la gente of this chat. There?s gotta be respect and >> trust. Among other things, that means it has to be voluntary and de buena >> voluntad. And transparent? Let me suggest a prototypical narrative of >> submission: Motherhood. Giving birth and all of that jazz. Creativity with >> a capital ?C?. Here?s another: death. Everything in between is up for grabs >> I guess. Probably lots of diversity as they say in the game. Please, >> chatters, don?t feel the need to respond. I?ll take silence as good sign. >> Like, you?re listening politely. >> Submissively >> Henry >> >> >> >> >>> On Jan 19, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>> Rod, >>> In the spirit of your caution and acknowledging its truth value, I want >> to >>> say I was hesitant to use the term "surrender" for how it would be >>> misunderstood. In a similar way to the misunderstandings of the term >>> "mind". >>> >>> I will mention that Jessica is consciously using the word "surrender" as >>> NOT "submission" as she tries to articulate a nypothesis that sees >> through >>> "domination" and the struggle to the death of complimentary "recognition" >>> I fully expect Jessica's work to instigate passionate responses. >>> Her work does develop from Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer, Fromm and the >>> Frankfurt school. >>> Jessica says we have conflated "surrender" with "submission" and >> Jessica's >>> use of the term "surrender" must be seen as being engaged in exploring >> [and >>> putting in play] notions of instrumental internalized "self-regulation" >> AND >>> notions of the "third space" as coming into being through "surrender" to >> a >>> place of potentiality and possibility that is moving "beyond" >>> self-assertion as a complimentary struggle to the death. >>> >>> Rod, the play of "active" and "receptive" thirds [in contrast to active >> and >>> passive twoness] is the place which Jessica is inviting us to occupy. >>> >>> Notions of "surrender" carry huge baggage and and will invite palpable >>> rejection as concepts. This is a fact. It is challenging particular >> notions >>> of "subjective" and "intersubjective" >>> However, if we begin within a dialogical awareness and acknowledge that >>> using a term such as "surrender" will be read by most and rejected as >>> implying "submission" and "domination" and "passivity" and "loosing the >>> self", then the process that you and I are engaged in at this moment is >> the >>> hermeneutical enactment of differentiating and "marking" the distinctions >>> the distinctions between "surrender" and "submission" Jessica is asking >> us >>> to pause and be reflective and consider this distinction. >>> >>> Rod, Jessica is working within a "tradition" [the Frankfurt School where >>> she is in dialogue with Hegel, Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer. Her project >> is >>> to "see through" the patterns of complimentary "twoness" [doer and done >> to >>> giver and given to]. The term "surrender" is being used within this >>> tradition. >>> >>> This term "surrender" [as exemplified in Stephen Mitchell's story >>> of letting go of his "idea" of "a walk" to enter his daughter's enactment >>> of "a walk" is central to Jessica's notion of living-in-truth. Yes, it >>> invites further dialogue and will be misunderstood. It requires further >>> dialogue. >>> >>> I could have tried to write an essay fully outlining the term "surrender" >>> This word has sparked considerable response within the tradition of >>> feminism. I could also she it being challenged as Eurocentric or too >>> psychological [emphasizing both accommodation and differentiation]. >>> >>> Posting to the listserve and inviting commentary and further questions on >>> the term "surrender" is another approach. >>> >>> I also hoped to find a "bridge" to Kris' understanding of "third space" >> and >>> her exploration of intersubjective testimonio as hybrid co-creative >>> mutual rhythmic patterns forming within third spaces. I see a quality of >>> "surrender" [as Jessica uses the term] in Kris' exploration of third >>> spaces. >>> >>> Vygotsky explores internalized "self-regulation" as a developmental task. >>> Jessica suggests the development of self regulation moves through >>> asymmetrical accommodation AND differentiation. For Jessica >>> this psychological development [if it is to form third spaces] requires >>> asymmetrical agentic active "surrender" as a way beyond a struggle to the >>> death of complimentary twoness. >>> In summary, I understand Jessica's work as an aspect of cultural >>> historical understanding, that includes social theory of emotions and >>> cognition and culture that is historical. >>> The term "surrender" is a discursive and dialogical form of enactment. >>> It was offered in the spirit of open ended dialogue but I was aware and >>> took a chance in using the word "surrender" Another word would have been >>> less controversial but I do question if being misunderstood and then >>> requiring further clarification is an approach with some value. >>> >>> I do not intend the use of "surrender" as an alternative approach to >>> cultural historical theory. >>> The use of this term is meant in a spirit of dialogue and the "piety" of >>> questions inviting answers. >>> Rod, in the way I presented the term "surrender", I may have elaborated >>> further, and clarified more, but I was not sure if there were others >>> who shared an interest in this topic of complimentary twoness and >>> co-creative thirdness. I was interested in going deeper into >> understanding >>> "third spaces" and by posting was feeling my way in by probing the level >> of >>> interest. >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < >>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> Larry, >>>> As I said, I like Benjamin's distinction between surrender and >> submission >>>> but I also think that it is not so simple to introduce new shadings of >>>> meaning to a word/concept which is already part of people's vocabulary. >> For >>>> most people, outside the group of those who know about Benjamin's work, >>>> surrender WILL still carry felt associations with unwillingly giving up >>>> ownership or control of something prized/valued. This is bound to result >>>> in miscommunication unless those who use surrender in its new sense >> signal >>>> and explain this use. I think an awareness of how we can expect others >> to >>>> react (body, mind and soul) is a core aspect of communication and >> ethical >>>> behaviour. We can't just occupy that third space and expect others to >>>> surrender to the meanings we want to introduce! >>>> >>>> Rod >>>> >>>> Sent from my Windows Phone >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: Larry Purss >>>> Sent: 19/01/2015 01:29 >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >>>> >>>> Miguel, >>>> The article I have been referencing is from Jessica Benjamin's article >>>> "Beyond Doer and Done To: An Intersubjective View of Thirdness" There >> is >>>> an extensive bibliography . Interestingly Jessica's dissertation was >>>> written in 1978 with the title, "Internalization and Instrumental >> Culture: >>>> A Reinterpretation of Psychoanalysis and Social Theory" >>>> Rod, >>>> Jessica references Colwyn Trevarthen as a source of her notion of >>>> "surrender". Yes, this word will make some uncomfortable, but this term >>>> must be seen as clearly differentiated from the notion of "submission" >>>> which Jessica believes are often conflated. I view "surrender" as >> Jessica >>>> uses the term as an "agentic" act that is ethical. It is an act [or >>>> enactment] which is felt as expansive, not as restrictive of "self" >>>> I am going to share a quote from Jessica's paper that she offered to >>>> differentiate the palpable difference between "surrender" and >> "submission". >>>> She is quoting Stephen Mitchell who is a key person in developing >>>> relational and hermeneutical psychoanalysis. >>>> Mitchell wrote: >>>> >>>> When my older daughter was about two or so, I remember my excitement at >> the >>>> prospect [LP-imaginal] of taking walks with her, given her new >> ambulatory >>>> skills and her intense interest in being outdoors. However, I soon >> found >>>> these walks agonizingly slow. My idea of a walk entailed brisk movement >>>> along a road or path. Her idea was quite different. The implication of >>>> this difference hit me one day when we encountered a fallen tree on the >>>> side of the road.... >>>> The rest of the "walk" was spent exploring the fungal and insect life >> on, >>>> under, and around the tree. I remember my sudden realization that these >>>> walks would be no fun for me, merely a parental duty, if I held onto my >>>> idea of walks. As I was able to give that up and SURRENDER to my >>>> daughter's rhythm and focus, a different type of experience opened up to >>>> me..... If I had simply RESTRAINED myself out of duty, I would have >>>> experienced the walk as a compliance. But I was able to become my >>>> daughter's version of a good companion and to find in THAT another way >> for >>>> me to be that took on great personal meaning" [Benjamin, page 26] >>>> >>>> For Benjamin and Mitchell this quote expresses the principle of >> necessary >>>> asymmetry, by accommodating to the other as a way of "generating" >>>> thirdness. and within the "surrendering" the person is transformed, >> through >>>> opening up to mutual pleasure. >>>> >>>> Jessica is asking how we distinguish between the compliance of "twoness" >>>> from the transformational learning of thirdness. For Jessica the answer >> is >>>> ethical, in the form of reflections on what will create intersubjective >>>> connection in our relationship, and through this reflection, opening up >> to >>>> surrender and transformation. This creative enactment expresses agency >> and >>>> is not coerced. It is an ethical response. This "intention" to connect >> and >>>> the resulting self-observation create what Jessical calls "moral >>>> thirdness", the connection to a larger expansive connection beyond giver >>>> and given to that is felt as palpably "right". >>>> In all Jessica's work she is distinguishing "surrender" from >> "submission" >>>> [including submitting to an "ideal" of "pure" empathy. which is a >> denial of >>>> self and leads to complimentary doer and done to. >>>> >>>> For Jessica this moral third space is the space where "self-regulation" >> and >>>> "co-regulation" meet. But that would require further elaboration. >>>> Larry >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < >>>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Larry, >>>>> >>>>> Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's >> distinction >>>>> between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I suspect that both >> terms >>>>> might trigger associations for many which might make them uncomfortable >>>>> about using them in these ways). Your observations about possibility >>>>> (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and common >>>>> experience might contribute to the building of richer and more >> extensive >>>>> possibilities among a community or a group of people who spend time >>>>> together (especially 'down' time, when they are more relaxed and their >>>>> social guards are down). It is easier and more agreeable to 'surrender' >>>>> into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social conversation >>>> with >>>>> no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to >> contribute >>>>> to the co-construction of a third space which is shaped not so much by >>>> the >>>>> thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of interactions >>>>> between them. This sort of surrendering into a group feels very >> different >>>>> from submitting to the ordered, planned procedures of a 'getting things >>>>> done' sort of meeting (though there is room for overlap). >>>>> >>>>>> From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very much >> like >>>>> what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when baby and >>>>> caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for the sake of >>>> engaging >>>>> with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the 'great we'). >>>>> >>>>> I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of our own >> and >>>>> other selves moves in and out of this sort of third space. Vera >> captured >>>>> some lovely aspects of this in her book 'Creative Collaboration' - how >>>> the >>>>> 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates the >>>>> possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. >>>>> >>>>> All the best, >>>>> >>>>> Rod >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss >>>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >>>>> >>>>> Rod, I concur with your interpretations. >>>>> I would add to your comment: >>>>> >>>>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt >>>>> others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind >>>> them >>>>> that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks at >>>>> first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! >>>>> >>>>> The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others >>>>> expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's internalized >>>>> "scripts". >>>>> This is exploring "my" act and your return act. >>>>> >>>>> Third space notions ask or question if there are "intersubjective" ways >>>> to >>>>> enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal >>>> "potential" >>>>> places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not yet exist >>>>> but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of "posse" [meaning >>>>> can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a "transformation" through >>>> activities >>>>> [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared realm". >>>>> >>>>> This way of understanding is playing with notions of metaphorical and >>>>> imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared potential >>>>> spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third spaces of >>>> "possibility" >>>>> within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which things >> are >>>>> not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, categorized, predictable, >>>> and >>>>> with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". >>>>> >>>>> What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of "intersubjective" >>>>> mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. >>>>> >>>>> Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" to >>>> "exist" >>>>> in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other as >>>> things >>>>> or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced being >> reduced >>>>> by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and collapses into >>>>> complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or "doer and done to" >>>>> Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" and >>>>> "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic "third" >> that >>>>> which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" >>>>> The third space must be enacted performed or take action but moving out >>>>> from within this imaginal shared space. >>>>> >>>>> This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" becoming >>>>> actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no absolute freedom >>>>> fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint fundamentally. >>>>> However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal symbolic >>>>> shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This in no way means >>>>> "submit" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < >>>>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly conscious >>>>>> of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been explored. >>>>>> >>>>>> In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a >>>>>> significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that it >>>>>> should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking example >>>>>> of what we all do every day when we make choices about how we will >>>>>> represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of clothes, how we do our >>>>>> hair, what we smell like, how we stand and walk, how we greet people >>>>>> etc. all play off our knowledge of what different choices are likely >>>>>> to be taken to mean (by different groups of people). I think this >>>>>> links to what Larry (I think) was saying about the concept-y-ness of >>>>>> the context-y environment in which babies play their way into >> meanings. >>>>>> >>>>>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt >>>>>> others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind >>>>>> them that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what >>>>>> looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! >>>>>> >>>>>> I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised cultural >>>>>> knowledge which informs our choices about how we will present >>>>>> ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) feeling of >>>>>> ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing how we are >>>>>> 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. When the >>>>>> rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy to join in but >>>>>> when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we need to watch from the >>>>>> periphery for a while before we presume to know what we are doing. >>>>>> >>>>>> All the best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Rod >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees= >> plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> ] >>>>>> On Behalf Of Larry Purss >>>>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike, >>>>>> You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social >>>>>> emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" rhythmic >>>>>> modalities. >>>>>> Thought and language and the figural within enactments [performances] >>>>>> >>>>>> You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it is >>>>>> a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to explore >>>>>> what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and cognitive >>>>>> enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" >>>>>> The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring >>>>>> enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the >>>>>> "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a more >>>>> metaphorical enactment. >>>>>> Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is >>>>>> the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the >>>>>> world as "possibility". >>>>>> In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a >>>>>> "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted brings >>>>> into "actuality" >>>>>> the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a >>>>>> possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person and >>>>>> enacting this alternative possible "scene". >>>>>> The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable felt >>>>>> experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and becomes >>>>>> "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane was acting >>>>>> from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" internal or >>>>> external? >>>>>> or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? >>>>>> Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] presence >>>>>> [both internal imagining and external performances] there are always >>>>>> palpable felt experiences and every "interpretation" is guided by >>>>>> these multi-modal ways of understanding. >>>>>> >>>>>> Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and >>>>>> "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable felt >>>>>> experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic dimension as >>>>>> "potential" or "transitional" spaces >>>>>> >>>>>> The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces is >>>>>> there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is often >>>>>> marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular "type" of >>>>>> rationality and thinking. >>>>>> >>>>>> What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third >>>>> spaces" >>>>>> is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is included >>>>>> and who is excluded. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about >>>>>>> what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I >>>>>>> think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am >>>>>>> wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my >>>>>>> wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill >>>>>>> health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. >>>>>>> Balance is an issue for her. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that >>>>>>> she was carrying a large staff. >>>>>>> I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! >>>>>>> and gave her a big hug." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, >>>>>>> she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became a perons >>>>>>> to others. People constantly started up conversations with her and, >>>>>>> being a skilled conversationalist interested in people, it made her >>>>>>> feel like a whole person. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a >>>>> tool? >>>>>>> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as >>>> well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Miguel, Rod, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other >>>>>>>> thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see >>>>>>>> these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that >>>>>>>> contrast with >>>>>> "twoness" >>>>>>>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and >>>>>>> learner, >>>>>>>> etc.] >>>>>>>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby >>>>>>> watcher's I >>>>>>>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream >>>>>>>> in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language >>>>>>>> in his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow >>>>>>>> Atwood, and Donna Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do >>>>>>>> not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as >>>>>>>> bothDaniel Stern >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. >>>>>>>> In Jessica's words: >>>>>>>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as >>>>>>>> growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the >>>>>>>> other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that require >>>>>>>> mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a >>>>>> pleasure and not a chore" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and >>>>>>>> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. >>>>>>>> My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and >>>>>>>> rhythmicity] are felt to be >>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there >>>>>>>> are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to >>>>>>>> understanding >>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our >>>>>>>> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt >>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle >>>>>>>> for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" >>>>>>>> Her >>>>>>> project >>>>>>>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for >>>>>>>> expressing this struggle for recognition. >>>>>>>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for >>>>>>>> recognition is through a developmental trajectory of >>>>>>>> intersubjective development of thirdness. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging >>>>>>>> sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" >>>>>>>> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as >>>>>>>> this analytic kernel >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are >>>>>>>> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by >>>>>>>> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" >>>>>> [with the mind's eye?]. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a >>>>>>>> father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures >>>>>>>> to another >>>>>>> dimension, >>>>>>>> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can >>>>>>>> offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing >>>>>>>> the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your >>>>>>>> notion of >>>>>>> "intersecting" >>>>>>>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across >>>>>>> verses] >>>>>>>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of >>>>>>> learning >>>>>>>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways >>>>>>>> of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of >>>>>>>> concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the >>>>>>>> children were able to join >>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>> explain >>>>>>>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or >>>>>>> "context" >>>>>>>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and >>>>>>>> historically situated. >>>>>>>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, >>>>>>>> Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are >>>>>>>> indicating is the >>>>>>> centrality >>>>>>>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also >>>>>>>> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. >>>>>>>> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this >>>>>>>> does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and >>>>>>>> a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>> institutionalized >>>>>>>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we >>>>>>>> ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new >>>>>>>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically >>>>>>>> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" >>>>>>>> AS potentially liberating contexts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two >>>>>>>> basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is >>>>>>>> to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in >>>>>>>> understanding the notion >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> "recognition". >>>>>>>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and >>>>>>>> done >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" >>>>>>> within >>>>>>>> thirdness. >>>>>>>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >>>>>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >>>>>> >>>>>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely >>>>>> for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not >>>>>> the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the >>>>>> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely >> on >>>>> it. >>>>>> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >>>>>> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not >>>>>> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University >>>>>> accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to >>>>>> scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept >>>>>> responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this >>>>>> email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services >>>>>> unless accompanied by an official order form. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >>>>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >>>>> >>>>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely >> for >>>>> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the >>>>> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the >>>>> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on >>>> it. >>>>> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >>>>> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not >>>>> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University >> accepts >>>>> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan >>>> emails >>>>> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept >> responsibility >>>>> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its >>>>> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless >> accompanied >>>>> by an official order form. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >>>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >>>> >>>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely >> for >>>> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the >>>> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the >>>> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on >> it. >>>> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >>>> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not >>>> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University >> accepts >>>> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan >> emails >>>> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept >> responsibility >>>> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its >>>> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless >> accompanied >>>> by an official order form. >>>> >>>> >> >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Jan 19 19:13:37 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 20:13:37 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Thirdness and its various versions References: <0040ECB1-A129-4D8A-AF5D-3EE5E73CB78F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <192F4B8C-B103-4381-8FAF-075D5181169E@gmail.com> Ahem. Dual STIMulation. > Begin forwarded message: > > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Thirdness and its various versions > From: HENRY SHONERD > Date: January 19, 2015 at 7:41:11 PM MST > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Mike, > When you posted your conjecture the first time I thought, ?Makes sense to me.? I only failed to let you know I grok it. I love dual simulation, absolutely the best way to assess learning. Project-based learning with tools and signs. Respect and trust twixt learner and learner. No new thread. I?m in the groove here. > Henry > >> On Jan 19, 2015, at 7:15 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> I am listening politely, Henry. >> >> I am guessing that from a CHAT point of view (I am making this up as I go >> along), every time we choose a word to speak or a tool to fix our car with, >> we must submit to the specialized constraints of using that particular >> means of achieving the end-in-mind. >> >> ?I do not want to start another subject line here, because I think they are >> connected, but if someone has time to respond to my suggestion that the old >> lady and the staff story might be interpreted as her use of the method of >> dual stimulation. She subordinated herself to the conditions of using a >> large staff instead of a handy cane, and thereby transformed herself by >> transforming the way others responded to her. >> >> Any takers? Wrong headed? Has potential? >> ? >> ?mike? >> >> On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 4:38 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> >>> Larry, >>> Do you think it?s sad-masochistic of me to suggest that we give submission >>> a chance? Unanalyzed, ?submission?, not even a suggestion of a hyphen, as >>> a juicy chunk, I think of Islam, or what I know of it through a hodge podge >>> of media and friendships. But break it down, without even going to the >>> dictionary, ?sub-mission? has the ring of commitment to a project. As a >>> legal term, my dictionary has ?submission? as ?an agreement between parties >>> involved in a dispute?. Here?s more from the semantic cluster: A synonym >>> for ?submission? is ?yield?, from the Middle English. It?s worth mashing up >>> latinate and germanic etymology and morphology to set up mnemonics for the >>> discourse. So, when, if ever, is it good to ?submit?, ?give in?? I submit >>> to the good will of la gente of this chat. There?s gotta be respect and >>> trust. Among other things, that means it has to be voluntary and de buena >>> voluntad. And transparent? Let me suggest a prototypical narrative of >>> submission: Motherhood. Giving birth and all of that jazz. Creativity with >>> a capital ?C?. Here?s another: death. Everything in between is up for grabs >>> I guess. Probably lots of diversity as they say in the game. Please, >>> chatters, don?t feel the need to respond. I?ll take silence as good sign. >>> Like, you?re listening politely. >>> Submissively >>> Henry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jan 19, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >>>> >>>> Rod, >>>> In the spirit of your caution and acknowledging its truth value, I want >>> to >>>> say I was hesitant to use the term "surrender" for how it would be >>>> misunderstood. In a similar way to the misunderstandings of the term >>>> "mind". >>>> >>>> I will mention that Jessica is consciously using the word "surrender" as >>>> NOT "submission" as she tries to articulate a nypothesis that sees >>> through >>>> "domination" and the struggle to the death of complimentary "recognition" >>>> I fully expect Jessica's work to instigate passionate responses. >>>> Her work does develop from Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer, Fromm and the >>>> Frankfurt school. >>>> Jessica says we have conflated "surrender" with "submission" and >>> Jessica's >>>> use of the term "surrender" must be seen as being engaged in exploring >>> [and >>>> putting in play] notions of instrumental internalized "self-regulation" >>> AND >>>> notions of the "third space" as coming into being through "surrender" to >>> a >>>> place of potentiality and possibility that is moving "beyond" >>>> self-assertion as a complimentary struggle to the death. >>>> >>>> Rod, the play of "active" and "receptive" thirds [in contrast to active >>> and >>>> passive twoness] is the place which Jessica is inviting us to occupy. >>>> >>>> Notions of "surrender" carry huge baggage and and will invite palpable >>>> rejection as concepts. This is a fact. It is challenging particular >>> notions >>>> of "subjective" and "intersubjective" >>>> However, if we begin within a dialogical awareness and acknowledge that >>>> using a term such as "surrender" will be read by most and rejected as >>>> implying "submission" and "domination" and "passivity" and "loosing the >>>> self", then the process that you and I are engaged in at this moment is >>> the >>>> hermeneutical enactment of differentiating and "marking" the distinctions >>>> the distinctions between "surrender" and "submission" Jessica is asking >>> us >>>> to pause and be reflective and consider this distinction. >>>> >>>> Rod, Jessica is working within a "tradition" [the Frankfurt School where >>>> she is in dialogue with Hegel, Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer. Her project >>> is >>>> to "see through" the patterns of complimentary "twoness" [doer and done >>> to >>>> giver and given to]. The term "surrender" is being used within this >>>> tradition. >>>> >>>> This term "surrender" [as exemplified in Stephen Mitchell's story >>>> of letting go of his "idea" of "a walk" to enter his daughter's enactment >>>> of "a walk" is central to Jessica's notion of living-in-truth. Yes, it >>>> invites further dialogue and will be misunderstood. It requires further >>>> dialogue. >>>> >>>> I could have tried to write an essay fully outlining the term "surrender" >>>> This word has sparked considerable response within the tradition of >>>> feminism. I could also she it being challenged as Eurocentric or too >>>> psychological [emphasizing both accommodation and differentiation]. >>>> >>>> Posting to the listserve and inviting commentary and further questions on >>>> the term "surrender" is another approach. >>>> >>>> I also hoped to find a "bridge" to Kris' understanding of "third space" >>> and >>>> her exploration of intersubjective testimonio as hybrid co-creative >>>> mutual rhythmic patterns forming within third spaces. I see a quality of >>>> "surrender" [as Jessica uses the term] in Kris' exploration of third >>>> spaces. >>>> >>>> Vygotsky explores internalized "self-regulation" as a developmental task. >>>> Jessica suggests the development of self regulation moves through >>>> asymmetrical accommodation AND differentiation. For Jessica >>>> this psychological development [if it is to form third spaces] requires >>>> asymmetrical agentic active "surrender" as a way beyond a struggle to the >>>> death of complimentary twoness. >>>> In summary, I understand Jessica's work as an aspect of cultural >>>> historical understanding, that includes social theory of emotions and >>>> cognition and culture that is historical. >>>> The term "surrender" is a discursive and dialogical form of enactment. >>>> It was offered in the spirit of open ended dialogue but I was aware and >>>> took a chance in using the word "surrender" Another word would have been >>>> less controversial but I do question if being misunderstood and then >>>> requiring further clarification is an approach with some value. >>>> >>>> I do not intend the use of "surrender" as an alternative approach to >>>> cultural historical theory. >>>> The use of this term is meant in a spirit of dialogue and the "piety" of >>>> questions inviting answers. >>>> Rod, in the way I presented the term "surrender", I may have elaborated >>>> further, and clarified more, but I was not sure if there were others >>>> who shared an interest in this topic of complimentary twoness and >>>> co-creative thirdness. I was interested in going deeper into >>> understanding >>>> "third spaces" and by posting was feeling my way in by probing the level >>> of >>>> interest. >>>> >>>> Larry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < >>>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Larry, >>>>> As I said, I like Benjamin's distinction between surrender and >>> submission >>>>> but I also think that it is not so simple to introduce new shadings of >>>>> meaning to a word/concept which is already part of people's vocabulary. >>> For >>>>> most people, outside the group of those who know about Benjamin's work, >>>>> surrender WILL still carry felt associations with unwillingly giving up >>>>> ownership or control of something prized/valued. This is bound to result >>>>> in miscommunication unless those who use surrender in its new sense >>> signal >>>>> and explain this use. I think an awareness of how we can expect others >>> to >>>>> react (body, mind and soul) is a core aspect of communication and >>> ethical >>>>> behaviour. We can't just occupy that third space and expect others to >>>>> surrender to the meanings we want to introduce! >>>>> >>>>> Rod >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: Larry Purss >>>>> Sent: 19/01/2015 01:29 >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >>>>> >>>>> Miguel, >>>>> The article I have been referencing is from Jessica Benjamin's article >>>>> "Beyond Doer and Done To: An Intersubjective View of Thirdness" There >>> is >>>>> an extensive bibliography . Interestingly Jessica's dissertation was >>>>> written in 1978 with the title, "Internalization and Instrumental >>> Culture: >>>>> A Reinterpretation of Psychoanalysis and Social Theory" >>>>> Rod, >>>>> Jessica references Colwyn Trevarthen as a source of her notion of >>>>> "surrender". Yes, this word will make some uncomfortable, but this term >>>>> must be seen as clearly differentiated from the notion of "submission" >>>>> which Jessica believes are often conflated. I view "surrender" as >>> Jessica >>>>> uses the term as an "agentic" act that is ethical. It is an act [or >>>>> enactment] which is felt as expansive, not as restrictive of "self" >>>>> I am going to share a quote from Jessica's paper that she offered to >>>>> differentiate the palpable difference between "surrender" and >>> "submission". >>>>> She is quoting Stephen Mitchell who is a key person in developing >>>>> relational and hermeneutical psychoanalysis. >>>>> Mitchell wrote: >>>>> >>>>> When my older daughter was about two or so, I remember my excitement at >>> the >>>>> prospect [LP-imaginal] of taking walks with her, given her new >>> ambulatory >>>>> skills and her intense interest in being outdoors. However, I soon >>> found >>>>> these walks agonizingly slow. My idea of a walk entailed brisk movement >>>>> along a road or path. Her idea was quite different. The implication of >>>>> this difference hit me one day when we encountered a fallen tree on the >>>>> side of the road.... >>>>> The rest of the "walk" was spent exploring the fungal and insect life >>> on, >>>>> under, and around the tree. I remember my sudden realization that these >>>>> walks would be no fun for me, merely a parental duty, if I held onto my >>>>> idea of walks. As I was able to give that up and SURRENDER to my >>>>> daughter's rhythm and focus, a different type of experience opened up to >>>>> me..... If I had simply RESTRAINED myself out of duty, I would have >>>>> experienced the walk as a compliance. But I was able to become my >>>>> daughter's version of a good companion and to find in THAT another way >>> for >>>>> me to be that took on great personal meaning" [Benjamin, page 26] >>>>> >>>>> For Benjamin and Mitchell this quote expresses the principle of >>> necessary >>>>> asymmetry, by accommodating to the other as a way of "generating" >>>>> thirdness. and within the "surrendering" the person is transformed, >>> through >>>>> opening up to mutual pleasure. >>>>> >>>>> Jessica is asking how we distinguish between the compliance of "twoness" >>>>> from the transformational learning of thirdness. For Jessica the answer >>> is >>>>> ethical, in the form of reflections on what will create intersubjective >>>>> connection in our relationship, and through this reflection, opening up >>> to >>>>> surrender and transformation. This creative enactment expresses agency >>> and >>>>> is not coerced. It is an ethical response. This "intention" to connect >>> and >>>>> the resulting self-observation create what Jessical calls "moral >>>>> thirdness", the connection to a larger expansive connection beyond giver >>>>> and given to that is felt as palpably "right". >>>>> In all Jessica's work she is distinguishing "surrender" from >>> "submission" >>>>> [including submitting to an "ideal" of "pure" empathy. which is a >>> denial of >>>>> self and leads to complimentary doer and done to. >>>>> >>>>> For Jessica this moral third space is the space where "self-regulation" >>> and >>>>> "co-regulation" meet. But that would require further elaboration. >>>>> Larry >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < >>>>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Larry, >>>>>> >>>>>> Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's >>> distinction >>>>>> between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I suspect that both >>> terms >>>>>> might trigger associations for many which might make them uncomfortable >>>>>> about using them in these ways). Your observations about possibility >>>>>> (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and common >>>>>> experience might contribute to the building of richer and more >>> extensive >>>>>> possibilities among a community or a group of people who spend time >>>>>> together (especially 'down' time, when they are more relaxed and their >>>>>> social guards are down). It is easier and more agreeable to 'surrender' >>>>>> into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social conversation >>>>> with >>>>>> no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to >>> contribute >>>>>> to the co-construction of a third space which is shaped not so much by >>>>> the >>>>>> thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of interactions >>>>>> between them. This sort of surrendering into a group feels very >>> different >>>>>> from submitting to the ordered, planned procedures of a 'getting things >>>>>> done' sort of meeting (though there is room for overlap). >>>>>> >>>>>>> From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very much >>> like >>>>>> what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when baby and >>>>>> caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for the sake of >>>>> engaging >>>>>> with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the 'great we'). >>>>>> >>>>>> I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of our own >>> and >>>>>> other selves moves in and out of this sort of third space. Vera >>> captured >>>>>> some lovely aspects of this in her book 'Creative Collaboration' - how >>>>> the >>>>>> 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates the >>>>>> possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. >>>>>> >>>>>> All the best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Rod >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss >>>>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >>>>>> >>>>>> Rod, I concur with your interpretations. >>>>>> I would add to your comment: >>>>>> >>>>>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt >>>>>> others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind >>>>> them >>>>>> that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks at >>>>>> first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! >>>>>> >>>>>> The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others >>>>>> expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's internalized >>>>>> "scripts". >>>>>> This is exploring "my" act and your return act. >>>>>> >>>>>> Third space notions ask or question if there are "intersubjective" ways >>>>> to >>>>>> enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal >>>>> "potential" >>>>>> places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not yet exist >>>>>> but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of "posse" [meaning >>>>>> can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a "transformation" through >>>>> activities >>>>>> [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared realm". >>>>>> >>>>>> This way of understanding is playing with notions of metaphorical and >>>>>> imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared potential >>>>>> spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third spaces of >>>>> "possibility" >>>>>> within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which things >>> are >>>>>> not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, categorized, predictable, >>>>> and >>>>>> with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". >>>>>> >>>>>> What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of "intersubjective" >>>>>> mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" to >>>>> "exist" >>>>>> in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other as >>>>> things >>>>>> or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced being >>> reduced >>>>>> by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and collapses into >>>>>> complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or "doer and done to" >>>>>> Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" and >>>>>> "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic "third" >>> that >>>>>> which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" >>>>>> The third space must be enacted performed or take action but moving out >>>>>> from within this imaginal shared space. >>>>>> >>>>>> This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" becoming >>>>>> actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no absolute freedom >>>>>> fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint fundamentally. >>>>>> However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal symbolic >>>>>> shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This in no way means >>>>>> "submit" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < >>>>>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly conscious >>>>>>> of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been explored. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a >>>>>>> significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that it >>>>>>> should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking example >>>>>>> of what we all do every day when we make choices about how we will >>>>>>> represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of clothes, how we do our >>>>>>> hair, what we smell like, how we stand and walk, how we greet people >>>>>>> etc. all play off our knowledge of what different choices are likely >>>>>>> to be taken to mean (by different groups of people). I think this >>>>>>> links to what Larry (I think) was saying about the concept-y-ness of >>>>>>> the context-y environment in which babies play their way into >>> meanings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt >>>>>>> others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to remind >>>>>>> them that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what >>>>>>> looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised cultural >>>>>>> knowledge which informs our choices about how we will present >>>>>>> ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) feeling of >>>>>>> ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing how we are >>>>>>> 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. When the >>>>>>> rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy to join in but >>>>>>> when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we need to watch from the >>>>>>> periphery for a while before we presume to know what we are doing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All the best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Rod >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees= >>> plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> ] >>>>>>> On Behalf Of Larry Purss >>>>>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike, >>>>>>> You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social >>>>>>> emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" rhythmic >>>>>>> modalities. >>>>>>> Thought and language and the figural within enactments [performances] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it is >>>>>>> a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to explore >>>>>>> what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and cognitive >>>>>>> enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" >>>>>>> The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring >>>>>>> enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the >>>>>>> "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a more >>>>>> metaphorical enactment. >>>>>>> Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is >>>>>>> the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the >>>>>>> world as "possibility". >>>>>>> In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a >>>>>>> "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted brings >>>>>> into "actuality" >>>>>>> the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a >>>>>>> possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person and >>>>>>> enacting this alternative possible "scene". >>>>>>> The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable felt >>>>>>> experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and becomes >>>>>>> "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane was acting >>>>>>> from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" internal or >>>>>> external? >>>>>>> or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? >>>>>>> Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] presence >>>>>>> [both internal imagining and external performances] there are always >>>>>>> palpable felt experiences and every "interpretation" is guided by >>>>>>> these multi-modal ways of understanding. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and >>>>>>> "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable felt >>>>>>> experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic dimension as >>>>>>> "potential" or "transitional" spaces >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces is >>>>>>> there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is often >>>>>>> marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular "type" of >>>>>>> rationality and thinking. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third >>>>>> spaces" >>>>>>> is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is included >>>>>>> and who is excluded. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about >>>>>>>> what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I >>>>>>>> think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am >>>>>>>> wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of my >>>>>>>> wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill >>>>>>>> health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. >>>>>>>> Balance is an issue for her. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that >>>>>>>> she was carrying a large staff. >>>>>>>> I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! >>>>>>>> and gave her a big hug." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a cane, >>>>>>>> she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became a perons >>>>>>>> to others. People constantly started up conversations with her and, >>>>>>>> being a skilled conversationalist interested in people, it made her >>>>>>>> feel like a whole person. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) a >>>>>> tool? >>>>>>>> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as >>>>> well. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Miguel, Rod, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other >>>>>>>>> thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see >>>>>>>>> these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that >>>>>>>>> contrast with >>>>>>> "twoness" >>>>>>>>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower and >>>>>>>> learner, >>>>>>>>> etc.] >>>>>>>>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby >>>>>>>> watcher's I >>>>>>>>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream >>>>>>>>> in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges language >>>>>>>>> in his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of Stolorow >>>>>>>>> Atwood, and Donna Orange, [intersubjective psychodynamics] who do >>>>>>>>> not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a developmental achievement as >>>>>>>>> bothDaniel Stern >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. >>>>>>>>> In Jessica's words: >>>>>>>>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as >>>>>>>>> growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by the >>>>>>>>> other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that require >>>>>>>>> mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as ultimately a >>>>>>> pleasure and not a chore" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and >>>>>>>>> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. >>>>>>>>> My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and >>>>>>>>> rhythmicity] are felt to be >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there >>>>>>>>> are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to >>>>>>>>> understanding >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our >>>>>>>>> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt >>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle >>>>>>>>> for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" >>>>>>>>> Her >>>>>>>> project >>>>>>>>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model for >>>>>>>>> expressing this struggle for recognition. >>>>>>>>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for >>>>>>>>> recognition is through a developmental trajectory of >>>>>>>>> intersubjective development of thirdness. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging >>>>>>>>> sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" >>>>>>>>> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as >>>>>>>>> this analytic kernel >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are >>>>>>>>> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by >>>>>>>>> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" >>>>>>> [with the mind's eye?]. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a >>>>>>>>> father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures >>>>>>>>> to another >>>>>>>> dimension, >>>>>>>>> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can >>>>>>>>> offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing >>>>>>>>> the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your >>>>>>>>> notion of >>>>>>>> "intersecting" >>>>>>>>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" [across >>>>>>>> verses] >>>>>>>>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of >>>>>>>> learning >>>>>>>>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y ways >>>>>>>>> of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of >>>>>>>>> concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the >>>>>>>>> children were able to join >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> explain >>>>>>>>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or >>>>>>>> "context" >>>>>>>>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and >>>>>>>>> historically situated. >>>>>>>>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, >>>>>>>>> Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are >>>>>>>>> indicating is the >>>>>>>> centrality >>>>>>>>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also >>>>>>>>> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. >>>>>>>>> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this >>>>>>>>> does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, and >>>>>>>>> a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply concept-y >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> institutionalized >>>>>>>>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we >>>>>>>>> ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new >>>>>>>>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically >>>>>>>>> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" >>>>>>>>> AS potentially liberating contexts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two >>>>>>>>> basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is >>>>>>>>> to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in >>>>>>>>> understanding the notion >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> "recognition". >>>>>>>>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and >>>>>>>>> done >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" >>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>> thirdness. >>>>>>>>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >>>>>>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely >>>>>>> for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not >>>>>>> the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the >>>>>>> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely >>> on >>>>>> it. >>>>>>> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >>>>>>> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not >>>>>>> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University >>>>>>> accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to >>>>>>> scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept >>>>>>> responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this >>>>>>> email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services >>>>>>> unless accompanied by an official order form. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >>>>>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >>>>>> >>>>>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely >>> for >>>>>> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the >>>>>> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the >>>>>> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on >>>>> it. >>>>>> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >>>>>> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not >>>>>> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University >>> accepts >>>>>> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan >>>>> emails >>>>>> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept >>> responsibility >>>>>> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its >>>>>> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless >>> accompanied >>>>>> by an official order form. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >>>>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >>>>> >>>>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely >>> for >>>>> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the >>>>> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the >>>>> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on >>> it. >>>>> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >>>>> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not >>>>> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University >>> accepts >>>>> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan >>> emails >>>>> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept >>> responsibility >>>>> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its >>>>> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless >>> accompanied >>>>> by an official order form. >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Tue Jan 20 03:37:12 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 11:37:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Haiti by the numbers, five years after In-Reply-To: <1421370143297.34782@unm.edu> References: <1421370143297.34782@unm.edu> Message-ID: <1661206536.4146681.1421753832734.JavaMail.yahoo@jws11171.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> To teach oppressors with most kindness how oppressive is the oppression and not to offend them by avoidance or oblivion of mercy and emotion and affect and to soothe their pains by reminding them that the 1000 thousand years of the East-Ottoman Empire was %100 more cruel and brutal than they are now through mechanism of Capitalist Rule . Zoroaster : " I , to combat darkness , will not take the sword out of the sheath , I will light the LAMP ! " . From: Annalisa Aguilar To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Friday, 16 January 2015, 4:32:23 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Haiti by the numbers, five years after What can be done? I think many are upset about this, but do not know what to do. Kind regards, Annalisa From mariasucupiralins@terra.com.br Tue Jan 20 05:08:33 2015 From: mariasucupiralins@terra.com.br (Maria Judith Sucupira da Costa Lins) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 11:08:33 -0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001701d034b2$3b06d170$b1147450$@terra.com.br> Submission is presente also in true love. maria -----Mensagem original----- De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] Em nome de HENRY SHONERD Enviada em: segunda-feira, 19 de janeiro de 2015 22:39 Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions Larry, Do you think it?s sad-masochistic of me to suggest that we give submission a chance? Unanalyzed, ?submission?, not even a suggestion of a hyphen, as a juicy chunk, I think of Islam, or what I know of it through a hodge podge of media and friendships. But break it down, without even going to the dictionary, ?sub-mission? has the ring of commitment to a project. As a legal term, my dictionary has ?submission? as ?an agreement between parties involved in a dispute?. Here?s more from the semantic cluster: A synonym for ?submission? is ?yield?, from the Middle English. It?s worth mashing up latinate and germanic etymology and morphology to set up mnemonics for the discourse. So, when, if ever, is it good to ?submit?, ?give in?? I submit to the good will of la gente of this chat. There?s gotta be respect and trust. Among other things, that means it has to be voluntary and de buena voluntad. And transparent? Let me suggest a prototypical narr ative of submission: Motherhood. Giving birth and all of that jazz. Creativity with a capital ?C?. Here?s another: death. Everything in between is up for grabs I guess. Probably lots of diversity as they say in the game. Please, chatters, don?t feel the need to respond. I?ll take silence as good sign. Like, you?re listening politely. Submissively Henry > On Jan 19, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > Rod, > In the spirit of your caution and acknowledging its truth value, I > want to say I was hesitant to use the term "surrender" for how it > would be misunderstood. In a similar way to the misunderstandings of > the term "mind". > > I will mention that Jessica is consciously using the word "surrender" > as NOT "submission" as she tries to articulate a nypothesis that sees > through "domination" and the struggle to the death of complimentary "recognition" > I fully expect Jessica's work to instigate passionate responses. > Her work does develop from Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer, Fromm and the > Frankfurt school. > Jessica says we have conflated "surrender" with "submission" and > Jessica's use of the term "surrender" must be seen as being engaged in > exploring [and putting in play] notions of instrumental internalized > "self-regulation" AND notions of the "third space" as coming into > being through "surrender" to a place of potentiality and possibility that is moving "beyond" > self-assertion as a complimentary struggle to the death. > > Rod, the play of "active" and "receptive" thirds [in contrast to > active and passive twoness] is the place which Jessica is inviting us to occupy. > > Notions of "surrender" carry huge baggage and and will invite palpable > rejection as concepts. This is a fact. It is challenging particular > notions of "subjective" and "intersubjective" > However, if we begin within a dialogical awareness and acknowledge > that using a term such as "surrender" will be read by most and > rejected as implying "submission" and "domination" and "passivity" > and "loosing the self", then the process that you and I are engaged in > at this moment is the hermeneutical enactment of differentiating and > "marking" the distinctions the distinctions between "surrender" and > "submission" Jessica is asking us to pause and be reflective and consider this distinction. > > Rod, Jessica is working within a "tradition" [the Frankfurt School > where she is in dialogue with Hegel, Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer. Her > project is to "see through" the patterns of complimentary "twoness" > [doer and done to giver and given to]. The term "surrender" is being > used within this tradition. > > This term "surrender" [as exemplified in Stephen Mitchell's story of > letting go of his "idea" of "a walk" to enter his daughter's enactment > of "a walk" is central to Jessica's notion of living-in-truth. Yes, it > invites further dialogue and will be misunderstood. It requires > further dialogue. > > I could have tried to write an essay fully outlining the term "surrender" > This word has sparked considerable response within the tradition of > feminism. I could also she it being challenged as Eurocentric or too > psychological [emphasizing both accommodation and differentiation]. > > Posting to the listserve and inviting commentary and further questions > on the term "surrender" is another approach. > > I also hoped to find a "bridge" to Kris' understanding of "third > space" and her exploration of intersubjective testimonio as hybrid > co-creative mutual rhythmic patterns forming within third spaces. I > see a quality of "surrender" [as Jessica uses the term] in Kris' > exploration of third spaces. > > Vygotsky explores internalized "self-regulation" as a developmental task. > Jessica suggests the development of self regulation moves through > asymmetrical accommodation AND differentiation. For Jessica this > psychological development [if it is to form third spaces] requires > asymmetrical agentic active "surrender" as a way beyond a struggle to > the death of complimentary twoness. > In summary, I understand Jessica's work as an aspect of cultural > historical understanding, that includes social theory of emotions and > cognition and culture that is historical. > The term "surrender" is a discursive and dialogical form of enactment. > It was offered in the spirit of open ended dialogue but I was aware > and took a chance in using the word "surrender" Another word would > have been less controversial but I do question if being misunderstood > and then requiring further clarification is an approach with some value. > > I do not intend the use of "surrender" as an alternative approach to > cultural historical theory. > The use of this term is meant in a spirit of dialogue and the "piety" > of questions inviting answers. > Rod, in the way I presented the term "surrender", I may have > elaborated further, and clarified more, but I was not sure if there > were others who shared an interest in this topic of complimentary > twoness and co-creative thirdness. I was interested in going deeper > into understanding "third spaces" and by posting was feeling my way in > by probing the level of interest. > > Larry > > > > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >> Larry, >> As I said, I like Benjamin's distinction between surrender and >> submission but I also think that it is not so simple to introduce new >> shadings of meaning to a word/concept which is already part of >> people's vocabulary. For most people, outside the group of those who >> know about Benjamin's work, surrender WILL still carry felt >> associations with unwillingly giving up ownership or control of >> something prized/valued. This is bound to result in miscommunication >> unless those who use surrender in its new sense signal and explain >> this use. I think an awareness of how we can expect others to react >> (body, mind and soul) is a core aspect of communication and ethical >> behaviour. We can't just occupy that third space and expect others to surrender to the meanings we want to introduce! >> >> Rod >> >> Sent from my Windows Phone >> ________________________________ >> From: Larry Purss >> Sent: 19/01/2015 01:29 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >> >> Miguel, >> The article I have been referencing is from Jessica Benjamin's >> article "Beyond Doer and Done To: An Intersubjective View of >> Thirdness" There is an extensive bibliography . Interestingly >> Jessica's dissertation was written in 1978 with the title, "Internalization and Instrumental Culture: >> A Reinterpretation of Psychoanalysis and Social Theory" >> Rod, >> Jessica references Colwyn Trevarthen as a source of her notion of >> "surrender". Yes, this word will make some uncomfortable, but this >> term must be seen as clearly differentiated from the notion of "submission" >> which Jessica believes are often conflated. I view "surrender" as >> Jessica uses the term as an "agentic" act that is ethical. It is an >> act [or enactment] which is felt as expansive, not as restrictive of "self" >> I am going to share a quote from Jessica's paper that she offered to >> differentiate the palpable difference between "surrender" and "submission". >> She is quoting Stephen Mitchell who is a key person in developing >> relational and hermeneutical psychoanalysis. >> Mitchell wrote: >> >> When my older daughter was about two or so, I remember my excitement >> at the prospect [LP-imaginal] of taking walks with her, given her new >> ambulatory skills and her intense interest in being outdoors. >> However, I soon found these walks agonizingly slow. My idea of a >> walk entailed brisk movement along a road or path. Her idea was >> quite different. The implication of this difference hit me one day >> when we encountered a fallen tree on the side of the road.... >> The rest of the "walk" was spent exploring the fungal and insect life >> on, under, and around the tree. I remember my sudden realization >> that these walks would be no fun for me, merely a parental duty, if I >> held onto my idea of walks. As I was able to give that up and >> SURRENDER to my daughter's rhythm and focus, a different type of >> experience opened up to me..... If I had simply RESTRAINED myself >> out of duty, I would have experienced the walk as a compliance. But >> I was able to become my daughter's version of a good companion and to >> find in THAT another way for me to be that took on great personal >> meaning" [Benjamin, page 26] >> >> For Benjamin and Mitchell this quote expresses the principle of >> necessary asymmetry, by accommodating to the other as a way of "generating" >> thirdness. and within the "surrendering" the person is transformed, >> through opening up to mutual pleasure. >> >> Jessica is asking how we distinguish between the compliance of "twoness" >> from the transformational learning of thirdness. For Jessica the >> answer is ethical, in the form of reflections on what will create >> intersubjective connection in our relationship, and through this >> reflection, opening up to surrender and transformation. This >> creative enactment expresses agency and is not coerced. It is an >> ethical response. This "intention" to connect and the resulting >> self-observation create what Jessical calls "moral thirdness", the >> connection to a larger expansive connection beyond giver and given to that is felt as palpably "right". >> In all Jessica's work she is distinguishing "surrender" from "submission" >> [including submitting to an "ideal" of "pure" empathy. which is a >> denial of self and leads to complimentary doer and done to. >> >> For Jessica this moral third space is the space where >> "self-regulation" and "co-regulation" meet. But that would require further elaboration. >> Larry >> >> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >> >>> Larry, >>> >>> Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's >>> distinction between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I >>> suspect that both terms might trigger associations for many which >>> might make them uncomfortable about using them in these ways). Your >>> observations about possibility >>> (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and common >>> experience might contribute to the building of richer and more >>> extensive possibilities among a community or a group of people who >>> spend time together (especially 'down' time, when they are more >>> relaxed and their social guards are down). It is easier and more agreeable to 'surrender' >>> into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social >>> conversation >> with >>> no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to >>> contribute to the co-construction of a third space which is shaped >>> not so much by >> the >>> thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of >>> interactions between them. This sort of surrendering into a group >>> feels very different from submitting to the ordered, planned >>> procedures of a 'getting things done' sort of meeting (though there is room for overlap). >>> >>>> From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very much >>>> like >>> what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when baby >>> and caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for the sake >>> of >> engaging >>> with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the 'great we'). >>> >>> I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of our own >>> and other selves moves in and out of this sort of third space. Vera >>> captured some lovely aspects of this in her book 'Creative >>> Collaboration' - how >> the >>> 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates the >>> possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Rod >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss >>> Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >>> >>> Rod, I concur with your interpretations. >>> I would add to your comment: >>> >>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt >>> others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to >>> remind >> them >>> that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks >>> at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! >>> >>> The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others >>> expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's >>> internalized "scripts". >>> This is exploring "my" act and your return act. >>> >>> Third space notions ask or question if there are "intersubjective" >>> ways >> to >>> enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal >> "potential" >>> places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not yet >>> exist but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of "posse" >>> [meaning can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a "transformation" >>> through >> activities >>> [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared realm". >>> >>> This way of understanding is playing with notions of metaphorical >>> and imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared >>> potential spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third spaces >>> of >> "possibility" >>> within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which >>> things are not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, >>> categorized, predictable, >> and >>> with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". >>> >>> What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of "intersubjective" >>> mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. >>> >>> Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" to >> "exist" >>> in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other as >> things >>> or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced being >>> reduced by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and >>> collapses into complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or "doer and done to" >>> Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" and >>> "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic "third" >>> that which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" >>> The third space must be enacted performed or take action but moving >>> out from within this imaginal shared space. >>> >>> This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" >>> becoming actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no absolute >>> freedom fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint fundamentally. >>> However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal >>> symbolic shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This in >>> no way means "submit" >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < >>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly >>>> conscious of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been explored. >>>> >>>> In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a >>>> significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that it >>>> should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking >>>> example of what we all do every day when we make choices about how >>>> we will represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of clothes, >>>> how we do our hair, what we smell like, how we stand and walk, how >>>> we greet people etc. all play off our knowledge of what different >>>> choices are likely to be taken to mean (by different groups of >>>> people). I think this links to what Larry (I think) was saying >>>> about the concept-y-ness of the context-y environment in which babies play their way into meanings. >>>> >>>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to >>>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help >>>> to remind them that things are not simple, categorised and >>>> predictable - what looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! >>>> >>>> I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised cultural >>>> knowledge which informs our choices about how we will present >>>> ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) feeling of >>>> ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing how we are >>>> 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. When the >>>> rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy to join in >>>> but when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we need to watch >>>> from the periphery for a while before we presume to know what we are doing. >>>> >>>> All the best, >>>> >>>> Rod >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: >>>> xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd. >>>> edu >>>> ] >>>> On Behalf Of Larry Purss >>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >>>> >>>> Mike, >>>> You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social >>>> emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" >>>> rhythmic modalities. >>>> Thought and language and the figural within enactments >>>> [performances] >>>> >>>> You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it >>>> is a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to >>>> explore what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and >>>> cognitive enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" >>>> The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring >>>> enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the >>>> "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a >>>> more >>> metaphorical enactment. >>>> Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is >>>> the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the >>>> world as "possibility". >>>> In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a >>>> "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted >>>> brings >>> into "actuality" >>>> the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a >>>> possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person >>>> and enacting this alternative possible "scene". >>>> The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable >>>> felt experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and >>>> becomes "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane >>>> was acting from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" >>>> internal or >>> external? >>>> or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? >>>> Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] >>>> presence [both internal imagining and external performances] there >>>> are always palpable felt experiences and every "interpretation" is >>>> guided by these multi-modal ways of understanding. >>>> >>>> Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and >>>> "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable >>>> felt experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic >>>> dimension as "potential" or "transitional" spaces >>>> >>>> The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces >>>> is there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is >>>> often marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular >>>> "type" of rationality and thinking. >>>> >>>> What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third >>> spaces" >>>> is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is >>>> included and who is excluded. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>>> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about >>>>> what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I >>>>> think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am >>>>> wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). >>>>> >>>>> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of >>>>> my wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill >>>>> health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. >>>>> Balance is an issue for her. >>>>> >>>>> When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that >>>>> she was carrying a large staff. >>>>> I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! >>>>> and gave her a big hug." >>>>> >>>>> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a >>>>> cane, she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became >>>>> a perons to others. People constantly started up conversations >>>>> with her and, being a skilled conversationalist interested in >>>>> people, it made her feel like a whole person. >>>>> >>>>> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) >>>>> a >>> tool? >>>>> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as >> well. >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Miguel, Rod, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other >>>>>> thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see >>>>>> these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that >>>>>> contrast with >>>> "twoness" >>>>>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower >>>>>> and >>>>> learner, >>>>>> etc.] >>>>>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby >>>>> watcher's I >>>>>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream >>>>>> in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges >>>>>> language in his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of >>>>>> Stolorow Atwood, and Donna Orange, [intersubjective >>>>>> psychodynamics] who do not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a >>>>>> developmental achievement as bothDaniel Stern >>>>> and >>>>>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. >>>>>> In Jessica's words: >>>>>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as >>>>>> growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by >>>>>> the other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that >>>>>> require mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as >>>>>> ultimately a >>>> pleasure and not a chore" >>>>>> >>>>>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and >>>>>> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. >>>>>> My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and >>>>>> rhythmicity] are felt to be >>>>> in >>>>>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there >>>>>> are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to >>>>>> understanding >>>>> we >>>>>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our >>>>>> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt >>>> experience. >>>>>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle >>>>>> for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" >>>>>> Her >>>>> project >>>>>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model >>>>>> for expressing this struggle for recognition. >>>>>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for >>>>>> recognition is through a developmental trajectory of >>>>>> intersubjective development of thirdness. >>>>>> >>>>>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging >>>>>> sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" >>>>>> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as >>>>>> this analytic kernel >>>>> is >>>>>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are >>>>>> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by >>>>>> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" >>>> [with the mind's eye?]. >>>>>> >>>>>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a >>>>>> father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures >>>>>> to another >>>>> dimension, >>>>>> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. >>>>>> I >>>>> would >>>>>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can >>>>>> offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing >>>>>> the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your >>>>>> notion of >>>>> "intersecting" >>>>>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" >>>>>> [across >>>>> verses] >>>>>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" >>>>>> >>>>>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of >>>>> learning >>>>>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y >>>>>> ways of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of >>>>>> concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the >>>>>> children were able to join >>>>> in >>>>>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able >>>>>> to >>>>> explain >>>>>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or >>>>> "context" >>>>>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and >>>>>> historically situated. >>>>>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, >>>>>> Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are >>>>>> indicating is the >>>>> centrality >>>>>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also >>>>>> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. >>>>>> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this >>>>>> does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, >>>>>> and a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply >>>>>> concept-y and >>>>> institutionalized >>>>>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we >>>>>> ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? >>>>>> >>>>>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new >>>>>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically >>>>>> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" >>>>>> AS potentially liberating contexts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two >>>>>> basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is >>>>>> to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in >>>>>> understanding the notion >>>>> of >>>>>> "recognition". >>>>>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and >>>>>> done >>>>> to >>>>>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" >>>>> within >>>>>> thirdness. >>>>>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as >>>>> an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >>>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >>>> >>>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended >>>> solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you >>>> are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other >>>> use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you >>>> should not rely on >>> it. >>>> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >>>> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are >>>> not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth >>>> University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your >>>> responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth >>>> University does not accept responsibility for any changes made >>>> after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments >>>> constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. >>>> >>>> >>> ________________________________ >>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >>> >>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended >>> solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you >>> are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other >>> use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you >>> should not rely on >> it. >>> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >>> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are >>> not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth >>> University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your >>> responsibility to scan >> emails >>> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept >>> responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in >>> this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or >>> services unless accompanied by an official order form. >>> >>> >> ________________________________ >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >> >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely >> for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not >> the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the >> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. >> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are >> not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University >> accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility >> to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not >> accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing >> in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or >> services unless accompanied by an official order form. >> >> --- Este email foi escaneado pelo Avast antiv?rus. http://www.avast.com From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Tue Jan 20 05:23:14 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 13:23:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: <001701d034b2$3b06d170$b1147450$@terra.com.br> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> <001701d034b2$3b06d170$b1147450$@terra.com.br> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022930B3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> But Benjamin would argue that this is surrender (jointly giving up a focus on self in order to focus on a shared 'third' space of relationship) rather than submission (losing self in/to the relationship). Bartels and Zeki (The neural correlates of maternal and romantic love, Neuroimage, 2004, 21, 1155-66) suggest that love is associated with a reduction of activity in parts of the brain associated with social evaluation - so love is, in some respects, blind and lovers (of their own babies or of romantic partners) may be more willing to surrender despite what others might see as flaws in the objects of their love! All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Maria Judith Sucupira da Costa Lins Sent: 20 January 2015 13:09 To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' Subject: [Xmca-l] RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions Submission is presente also in true love. maria -----Mensagem original----- De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] Em nome de HENRY SHONERD Enviada em: segunda-feira, 19 de janeiro de 2015 22:39 Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions Larry, Do you think it?s sad-masochistic of me to suggest that we give submission a chance? Unanalyzed, ?submission?, not even a suggestion of a hyphen, as a juicy chunk, I think of Islam, or what I know of it through a hodge podge of media and friendships. But break it down, without even going to the dictionary, ?sub-mission? has the ring of commitment to a project. As a legal term, my dictionary has ?submission? as ?an agreement between parties involved in a dispute?. Here?s more from the semantic cluster: A synonym for ?submission? is ?yield?, from the Middle English. It?s worth mashing up latinate and germanic etymology and morphology to set up mnemonics for the discourse. So, when, if ever, is it good to ?submit?, ?give in?? I submit to the good will of la gente of this chat. There?s gotta be respect and trust. Among other things, that means it has to be voluntary and de buena voluntad. And transparent? Let me suggest a prototypical narr ative of submission: Motherhood. Giving birth and all of that jazz. Creativity with a capital ?C?. Here?s another: death. Everything in between is up for grabs I guess. Probably lots of diversity as they say in the game. Please, chatters, don?t feel the need to respond. I?ll take silence as good sign. Like, you?re listening politely. Submissively Henry > On Jan 19, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > Rod, > In the spirit of your caution and acknowledging its truth value, I > want to say I was hesitant to use the term "surrender" for how it > would be misunderstood. In a similar way to the misunderstandings of > the term "mind". > > I will mention that Jessica is consciously using the word "surrender" > as NOT "submission" as she tries to articulate a nypothesis that sees > through "domination" and the struggle to the death of complimentary "recognition" > I fully expect Jessica's work to instigate passionate responses. > Her work does develop from Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer, Fromm and the > Frankfurt school. > Jessica says we have conflated "surrender" with "submission" and > Jessica's use of the term "surrender" must be seen as being engaged in > exploring [and putting in play] notions of instrumental internalized > "self-regulation" AND notions of the "third space" as coming into > being through "surrender" to a place of potentiality and possibility that is moving "beyond" > self-assertion as a complimentary struggle to the death. > > Rod, the play of "active" and "receptive" thirds [in contrast to > active and passive twoness] is the place which Jessica is inviting us to occupy. > > Notions of "surrender" carry huge baggage and and will invite palpable > rejection as concepts. This is a fact. It is challenging particular > notions of "subjective" and "intersubjective" > However, if we begin within a dialogical awareness and acknowledge > that using a term such as "surrender" will be read by most and > rejected as implying "submission" and "domination" and "passivity" > and "loosing the self", then the process that you and I are engaged in > at this moment is the hermeneutical enactment of differentiating and > "marking" the distinctions the distinctions between "surrender" and > "submission" Jessica is asking us to pause and be reflective and consider this distinction. > > Rod, Jessica is working within a "tradition" [the Frankfurt School > where she is in dialogue with Hegel, Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer. Her > project is to "see through" the patterns of complimentary "twoness" > [doer and done to giver and given to]. The term "surrender" is being > used within this tradition. > > This term "surrender" [as exemplified in Stephen Mitchell's story of > letting go of his "idea" of "a walk" to enter his daughter's enactment > of "a walk" is central to Jessica's notion of living-in-truth. Yes, it > invites further dialogue and will be misunderstood. It requires > further dialogue. > > I could have tried to write an essay fully outlining the term "surrender" > This word has sparked considerable response within the tradition of > feminism. I could also she it being challenged as Eurocentric or too > psychological [emphasizing both accommodation and differentiation]. > > Posting to the listserve and inviting commentary and further questions > on the term "surrender" is another approach. > > I also hoped to find a "bridge" to Kris' understanding of "third > space" and her exploration of intersubjective testimonio as hybrid > co-creative mutual rhythmic patterns forming within third spaces. I > see a quality of "surrender" [as Jessica uses the term] in Kris' > exploration of third spaces. > > Vygotsky explores internalized "self-regulation" as a developmental task. > Jessica suggests the development of self regulation moves through > asymmetrical accommodation AND differentiation. For Jessica this > psychological development [if it is to form third spaces] requires > asymmetrical agentic active "surrender" as a way beyond a struggle to > the death of complimentary twoness. > In summary, I understand Jessica's work as an aspect of cultural > historical understanding, that includes social theory of emotions and > cognition and culture that is historical. > The term "surrender" is a discursive and dialogical form of enactment. > It was offered in the spirit of open ended dialogue but I was aware > and took a chance in using the word "surrender" Another word would > have been less controversial but I do question if being misunderstood > and then requiring further clarification is an approach with some value. > > I do not intend the use of "surrender" as an alternative approach to > cultural historical theory. > The use of this term is meant in a spirit of dialogue and the "piety" > of questions inviting answers. > Rod, in the way I presented the term "surrender", I may have > elaborated further, and clarified more, but I was not sure if there > were others who shared an interest in this topic of complimentary > twoness and co-creative thirdness. I was interested in going deeper > into understanding "third spaces" and by posting was feeling my way in > by probing the level of interest. > > Larry > > > > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >> Larry, >> As I said, I like Benjamin's distinction between surrender and >> submission but I also think that it is not so simple to introduce new >> shadings of meaning to a word/concept which is already part of >> people's vocabulary. For most people, outside the group of those who >> know about Benjamin's work, surrender WILL still carry felt >> associations with unwillingly giving up ownership or control of >> something prized/valued. This is bound to result in miscommunication >> unless those who use surrender in its new sense signal and explain >> this use. I think an awareness of how we can expect others to react >> (body, mind and soul) is a core aspect of communication and ethical >> behaviour. We can't just occupy that third space and expect others to surrender to the meanings we want to introduce! >> >> Rod >> >> Sent from my Windows Phone >> ________________________________ >> From: Larry Purss >> Sent: 19/01/2015 01:29 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >> >> Miguel, >> The article I have been referencing is from Jessica Benjamin's >> article "Beyond Doer and Done To: An Intersubjective View of >> Thirdness" There is an extensive bibliography . Interestingly >> Jessica's dissertation was written in 1978 with the title, "Internalization and Instrumental Culture: >> A Reinterpretation of Psychoanalysis and Social Theory" >> Rod, >> Jessica references Colwyn Trevarthen as a source of her notion of >> "surrender". Yes, this word will make some uncomfortable, but this >> term must be seen as clearly differentiated from the notion of "submission" >> which Jessica believes are often conflated. I view "surrender" as >> Jessica uses the term as an "agentic" act that is ethical. It is an >> act [or enactment] which is felt as expansive, not as restrictive of "self" >> I am going to share a quote from Jessica's paper that she offered to >> differentiate the palpable difference between "surrender" and "submission". >> She is quoting Stephen Mitchell who is a key person in developing >> relational and hermeneutical psychoanalysis. >> Mitchell wrote: >> >> When my older daughter was about two or so, I remember my excitement >> at the prospect [LP-imaginal] of taking walks with her, given her new >> ambulatory skills and her intense interest in being outdoors. >> However, I soon found these walks agonizingly slow. My idea of a >> walk entailed brisk movement along a road or path. Her idea was >> quite different. The implication of this difference hit me one day >> when we encountered a fallen tree on the side of the road.... >> The rest of the "walk" was spent exploring the fungal and insect life >> on, under, and around the tree. I remember my sudden realization >> that these walks would be no fun for me, merely a parental duty, if I >> held onto my idea of walks. As I was able to give that up and >> SURRENDER to my daughter's rhythm and focus, a different type of >> experience opened up to me..... If I had simply RESTRAINED myself >> out of duty, I would have experienced the walk as a compliance. But >> I was able to become my daughter's version of a good companion and to >> find in THAT another way for me to be that took on great personal >> meaning" [Benjamin, page 26] >> >> For Benjamin and Mitchell this quote expresses the principle of >> necessary asymmetry, by accommodating to the other as a way of "generating" >> thirdness. and within the "surrendering" the person is transformed, >> through opening up to mutual pleasure. >> >> Jessica is asking how we distinguish between the compliance of "twoness" >> from the transformational learning of thirdness. For Jessica the >> answer is ethical, in the form of reflections on what will create >> intersubjective connection in our relationship, and through this >> reflection, opening up to surrender and transformation. This >> creative enactment expresses agency and is not coerced. It is an >> ethical response. This "intention" to connect and the resulting >> self-observation create what Jessical calls "moral thirdness", the >> connection to a larger expansive connection beyond giver and given to that is felt as palpably "right". >> In all Jessica's work she is distinguishing "surrender" from "submission" >> [including submitting to an "ideal" of "pure" empathy. which is a >> denial of self and leads to complimentary doer and done to. >> >> For Jessica this moral third space is the space where >> "self-regulation" and "co-regulation" meet. But that would require further elaboration. >> Larry >> >> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >> >>> Larry, >>> >>> Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's >>> distinction between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I >>> suspect that both terms might trigger associations for many which >>> might make them uncomfortable about using them in these ways). Your >>> observations about possibility >>> (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and common >>> experience might contribute to the building of richer and more >>> extensive possibilities among a community or a group of people who >>> spend time together (especially 'down' time, when they are more >>> relaxed and their social guards are down). It is easier and more agreeable to 'surrender' >>> into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social >>> conversation >> with >>> no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to >>> contribute to the co-construction of a third space which is shaped >>> not so much by >> the >>> thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of >>> interactions between them. This sort of surrendering into a group >>> feels very different from submitting to the ordered, planned >>> procedures of a 'getting things done' sort of meeting (though there is room for overlap). >>> >>>> From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very much >>>> like >>> what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when baby >>> and caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for the sake >>> of >> engaging >>> with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the 'great we'). >>> >>> I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of our own >>> and other selves moves in and out of this sort of third space. Vera >>> captured some lovely aspects of this in her book 'Creative >>> Collaboration' - how >> the >>> 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates the >>> possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Rod >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss >>> Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >>> >>> Rod, I concur with your interpretations. >>> I would add to your comment: >>> >>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt >>> others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to >>> remind >> them >>> that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks >>> at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! >>> >>> The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others >>> expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's >>> internalized "scripts". >>> This is exploring "my" act and your return act. >>> >>> Third space notions ask or question if there are "intersubjective" >>> ways >> to >>> enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal >> "potential" >>> places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not yet >>> exist but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of "posse" >>> [meaning can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a "transformation" >>> through >> activities >>> [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared realm". >>> >>> This way of understanding is playing with notions of metaphorical >>> and imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared >>> potential spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third spaces >>> of >> "possibility" >>> within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which >>> things are not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, >>> categorized, predictable, >> and >>> with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". >>> >>> What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of "intersubjective" >>> mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. >>> >>> Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" to >> "exist" >>> in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other as >> things >>> or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced being >>> reduced by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and >>> collapses into complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or "doer and done to" >>> Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" and >>> "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic "third" >>> that which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" >>> The third space must be enacted performed or take action but moving >>> out from within this imaginal shared space. >>> >>> This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" >>> becoming actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no absolute >>> freedom fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint fundamentally. >>> However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal >>> symbolic shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This in >>> no way means "submit" >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < >>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly >>>> conscious of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been explored. >>>> >>>> In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a >>>> significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that it >>>> should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking >>>> example of what we all do every day when we make choices about how >>>> we will represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of clothes, >>>> how we do our hair, what we smell like, how we stand and walk, how >>>> we greet people etc. all play off our knowledge of what different >>>> choices are likely to be taken to mean (by different groups of >>>> people). I think this links to what Larry (I think) was saying >>>> about the concept-y-ness of the context-y environment in which babies play their way into meanings. >>>> >>>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to >>>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help >>>> to remind them that things are not simple, categorised and >>>> predictable - what looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! >>>> >>>> I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised cultural >>>> knowledge which informs our choices about how we will present >>>> ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) feeling of >>>> ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing how we are >>>> 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. When the >>>> rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy to join in >>>> but when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we need to watch >>>> from the periphery for a while before we presume to know what we are doing. >>>> >>>> All the best, >>>> >>>> Rod >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: >>>> xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd. >>>> edu >>>> ] >>>> On Behalf Of Larry Purss >>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >>>> >>>> Mike, >>>> You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social >>>> emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" >>>> rhythmic modalities. >>>> Thought and language and the figural within enactments >>>> [performances] >>>> >>>> You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it >>>> is a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to >>>> explore what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and >>>> cognitive enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" >>>> The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring >>>> enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the >>>> "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a >>>> more >>> metaphorical enactment. >>>> Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is >>>> the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the >>>> world as "possibility". >>>> In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a >>>> "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted >>>> brings >>> into "actuality" >>>> the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a >>>> possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person >>>> and enacting this alternative possible "scene". >>>> The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable >>>> felt experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and >>>> becomes "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane >>>> was acting from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" >>>> internal or >>> external? >>>> or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? >>>> Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] >>>> presence [both internal imagining and external performances] there >>>> are always palpable felt experiences and every "interpretation" is >>>> guided by these multi-modal ways of understanding. >>>> >>>> Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and >>>> "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable >>>> felt experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic >>>> dimension as "potential" or "transitional" spaces >>>> >>>> The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces >>>> is there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is >>>> often marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular >>>> "type" of rationality and thinking. >>>> >>>> What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third >>> spaces" >>>> is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is >>>> included and who is excluded. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>>> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about >>>>> what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I >>>>> think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am >>>>> wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). >>>>> >>>>> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of >>>>> my wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill >>>>> health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. >>>>> Balance is an issue for her. >>>>> >>>>> When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that >>>>> she was carrying a large staff. >>>>> I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! >>>>> and gave her a big hug." >>>>> >>>>> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a >>>>> cane, she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became >>>>> a perons to others. People constantly started up conversations >>>>> with her and, being a skilled conversationalist interested in >>>>> people, it made her feel like a whole person. >>>>> >>>>> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) >>>>> a >>> tool? >>>>> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as >> well. >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Miguel, Rod, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other >>>>>> thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see >>>>>> these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that >>>>>> contrast with >>>> "twoness" >>>>>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower >>>>>> and >>>>> learner, >>>>>> etc.] >>>>>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby >>>>> watcher's I >>>>>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream >>>>>> in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges >>>>>> language in his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of >>>>>> Stolorow Atwood, and Donna Orange, [intersubjective >>>>>> psychodynamics] who do not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a >>>>>> developmental achievement as bothDaniel Stern >>>>> and >>>>>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. >>>>>> In Jessica's words: >>>>>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as >>>>>> growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by >>>>>> the other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that >>>>>> require mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as >>>>>> ultimately a >>>> pleasure and not a chore" >>>>>> >>>>>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and >>>>>> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. >>>>>> My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and >>>>>> rhythmicity] are felt to be >>>>> in >>>>>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there >>>>>> are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to >>>>>> understanding >>>>> we >>>>>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our >>>>>> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt >>>> experience. >>>>>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle >>>>>> for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" >>>>>> Her >>>>> project >>>>>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model >>>>>> for expressing this struggle for recognition. >>>>>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for >>>>>> recognition is through a developmental trajectory of >>>>>> intersubjective development of thirdness. >>>>>> >>>>>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging >>>>>> sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" >>>>>> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as >>>>>> this analytic kernel >>>>> is >>>>>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are >>>>>> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by >>>>>> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" >>>> [with the mind's eye?]. >>>>>> >>>>>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a >>>>>> father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures >>>>>> to another >>>>> dimension, >>>>>> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. >>>>>> I >>>>> would >>>>>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can >>>>>> offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing >>>>>> the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your >>>>>> notion of >>>>> "intersecting" >>>>>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" >>>>>> [across >>>>> verses] >>>>>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" >>>>>> >>>>>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of >>>>> learning >>>>>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y >>>>>> ways of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of >>>>>> concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the >>>>>> children were able to join >>>>> in >>>>>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able >>>>>> to >>>>> explain >>>>>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or >>>>> "context" >>>>>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and >>>>>> historically situated. >>>>>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, >>>>>> Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are >>>>>> indicating is the >>>>> centrality >>>>>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also >>>>>> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. >>>>>> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this >>>>>> does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, >>>>>> and a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply >>>>>> concept-y and >>>>> institutionalized >>>>>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we >>>>>> ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? >>>>>> >>>>>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new >>>>>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically >>>>>> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" >>>>>> AS potentially liberating contexts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two >>>>>> basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is >>>>>> to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in >>>>>> understanding the notion >>>>> of >>>>>> "recognition". >>>>>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and >>>>>> done >>>>> to >>>>>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" >>>>> within >>>>>> thirdness. >>>>>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as >>>>> an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >>>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >>>> >>>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended >>>> solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. 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From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Jan 20 07:40:52 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 07:40:52 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022930B3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> <001701d034b2$3b06d170$b1147450$@terra.com.br> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022930B3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Rod, Yes, and the surrender she is exploring is of the intersubjective type [subject subject complimentarity transformed. This is in contrast to submission as a relation in which some "one" [person or "idea" is "dominant" and privileged such a patriarchal father,] To sub-mit for Jessica enacts some "one" is "over"-seeing. In her example of the walk with the two year old, if this walk becomes "duty" through an act of self- assertion or self-regulation this duty becomes some"thing" which the parent submits to and there is no longer a sense of mutual intersubjective delight in surrendering to the "third" that mutual potential space. Jessica describes this tension between subjective complimentary twoness [i.e. patriarchal father as over lord] and the who submits to the "one" [person or ideal] AND intersubjective "thirdness" as a tension which will never be dialectically resolved. Thirdness will always rupture and need repair. Jessica's is a "moral" third and is a developmental "achievement". It requires first having participated and been "held" or "witnessed" within palpable felt experience which creates a thirdness of intersubjective attunement. This is "accommodation". The mother's gestures must be "marked" to the rhythm of the babies moods and affect as attunement to a rhythmic "dance". This is the context or ZPD in which "differentiation" from fusion within "oneness" occurs. This intersubjective model recognizes that this type of developmental "learning" must be co-created and requires the "symbolic" third which explores as metaphorical enactments of (a)symmetry. The parent must act from within "reflective" presence enacting the third by "morally" surrendering to the rhythm or musical patterning using cultural historical tools and understandings. I read Jessica as "seeing through" the historical constellation of two independent subjectivie standpoints in relations of complimentarity and one is "over" and the other "under" in relations of domination. Submitting to a fundamental already known "one" is not intersubjective asymmetrical enactments which call forth surrender of the person through rhythmical attunements to the other as the "basis" for differentiation of the two subjectivities through the moral reflections of the care giver. This model understands maturity as the care giver having her own subjectivity and "twoness" and "thirdness" are never resolved or transcended . They co-exist and the care giver must develop the capacity or disposition for co-creating attuned, differentiated, and symbolic thirdness. What Jessica is suggesting is this process collapses into complimentary doer and done to without the recognition this is continually co-created "MORAL" thirdness that intentionally resists either/or enactments which demand patriarchical recognition and the other must in duty submit The tension is never overcome and it is inevitable that thirdness will collapse into twoness. This will be felt as a loss of thirdness and the moral struggle is through reflection for the more mature one to re-establish thirdness through recognition that the thirdness shifted towards self-assertive twoness. It takes the commitment for the person in the lead to recognize he/she returned to "twoness" and caused a rupture and to sincerely communicate this "truth" to the other participant(s) so the felt inevitable disregulation can be validated as a felt truth. This acknowledge is capable of reopening this space of thirdness, this metaphorical space of potentiality and possibility. This model is "intersubjective" not subjective Larry On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 5:23 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > But Benjamin would argue that this is surrender (jointly giving up a focus > on self in order to focus on a shared 'third' space of relationship) rather > than submission (losing self in/to the relationship). > > Bartels and Zeki (The neural correlates of maternal and romantic love, > Neuroimage, 2004, 21, 1155-66) suggest that love is associated with a > reduction of activity in parts of the brain associated with social > evaluation - so love is, in some respects, blind and lovers (of their own > babies or of romantic partners) may be more willing to surrender despite > what others might see as flaws in the objects of their love! > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Maria Judith Sucupira da > Costa Lins > Sent: 20 January 2015 13:09 > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > Subject: [Xmca-l] RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > Submission is presente also in true love. > maria > > -----Mensagem original----- > De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] Em nome de HENRY SHONERD Enviada em: > segunda-feira, 19 de janeiro de 2015 22:39 > Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > Larry, > Do you think it?s sad-masochistic of me to suggest that we give submission > a chance? Unanalyzed, ?submission?, not even a suggestion of a hyphen, as > a juicy chunk, I think of Islam, or what I know of it through a hodge podge > of media and friendships. But break it down, without even going to the > dictionary, ?sub-mission? has the ring of commitment to a project. As a > legal term, my dictionary has ?submission? as ?an agreement between parties > involved in a dispute?. Here?s more from the semantic cluster: A synonym > for ?submission? is ?yield?, from the Middle English. It?s worth mashing up > latinate and germanic etymology and morphology to set up mnemonics for the > discourse. So, when, if ever, is it good to ?submit?, ?give in?? I submit > to the good will of la gente of this chat. There?s gotta be respect and > trust. Among other things, that means it has to be voluntary and de buena > voluntad. And transparent? Let me suggest a prototypical narr ative of > submission: Motherhood. Giving birth and all of that jazz. Creativity with > a capital ?C?. Here?s another: death. Everything in between is up for grabs > I guess. Probably lots of diversity as they say in the game. Please, > chatters, don?t feel the need to respond. I?ll take silence as good sign. > Like, you?re listening politely. > Submissively > Henry > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > Rod, > > In the spirit of your caution and acknowledging its truth value, I > > want to say I was hesitant to use the term "surrender" for how it > > would be misunderstood. In a similar way to the misunderstandings of > > the term "mind". > > > > I will mention that Jessica is consciously using the word "surrender" > > as NOT "submission" as she tries to articulate a nypothesis that sees > > through "domination" and the struggle to the death of complimentary > "recognition" > > I fully expect Jessica's work to instigate passionate responses. > > Her work does develop from Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer, Fromm and the > > Frankfurt school. > > Jessica says we have conflated "surrender" with "submission" and > > Jessica's use of the term "surrender" must be seen as being engaged in > > exploring [and putting in play] notions of instrumental internalized > > "self-regulation" AND notions of the "third space" as coming into > > being through "surrender" to a place of potentiality and possibility > that is moving "beyond" > > self-assertion as a complimentary struggle to the death. > > > > Rod, the play of "active" and "receptive" thirds [in contrast to > > active and passive twoness] is the place which Jessica is inviting us to > occupy. > > > > Notions of "surrender" carry huge baggage and and will invite palpable > > rejection as concepts. This is a fact. It is challenging particular > > notions of "subjective" and "intersubjective" > > However, if we begin within a dialogical awareness and acknowledge > > that using a term such as "surrender" will be read by most and > > rejected as implying "submission" and "domination" and "passivity" > > and "loosing the self", then the process that you and I are engaged in > > at this moment is the hermeneutical enactment of differentiating and > > "marking" the distinctions the distinctions between "surrender" and > > "submission" Jessica is asking us to pause and be reflective and > consider this distinction. > > > > Rod, Jessica is working within a "tradition" [the Frankfurt School > > where she is in dialogue with Hegel, Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer. Her > > project is to "see through" the patterns of complimentary "twoness" > > [doer and done to giver and given to]. The term "surrender" is being > > used within this tradition. > > > > This term "surrender" [as exemplified in Stephen Mitchell's story of > > letting go of his "idea" of "a walk" to enter his daughter's enactment > > of "a walk" is central to Jessica's notion of living-in-truth. Yes, it > > invites further dialogue and will be misunderstood. It requires > > further dialogue. > > > > I could have tried to write an essay fully outlining the term "surrender" > > This word has sparked considerable response within the tradition of > > feminism. I could also she it being challenged as Eurocentric or too > > psychological [emphasizing both accommodation and differentiation]. > > > > Posting to the listserve and inviting commentary and further questions > > on the term "surrender" is another approach. > > > > I also hoped to find a "bridge" to Kris' understanding of "third > > space" and her exploration of intersubjective testimonio as hybrid > > co-creative mutual rhythmic patterns forming within third spaces. I > > see a quality of "surrender" [as Jessica uses the term] in Kris' > > exploration of third spaces. > > > > Vygotsky explores internalized "self-regulation" as a developmental task. > > Jessica suggests the development of self regulation moves through > > asymmetrical accommodation AND differentiation. For Jessica this > > psychological development [if it is to form third spaces] requires > > asymmetrical agentic active "surrender" as a way beyond a struggle to > > the death of complimentary twoness. > > In summary, I understand Jessica's work as an aspect of cultural > > historical understanding, that includes social theory of emotions and > > cognition and culture that is historical. > > The term "surrender" is a discursive and dialogical form of enactment. > > It was offered in the spirit of open ended dialogue but I was aware > > and took a chance in using the word "surrender" Another word would > > have been less controversial but I do question if being misunderstood > > and then requiring further clarification is an approach with some value. > > > > I do not intend the use of "surrender" as an alternative approach to > > cultural historical theory. > > The use of this term is meant in a spirit of dialogue and the "piety" > > of questions inviting answers. > > Rod, in the way I presented the term "surrender", I may have > > elaborated further, and clarified more, but I was not sure if there > > were others who shared an interest in this topic of complimentary > > twoness and co-creative thirdness. I was interested in going deeper > > into understanding "third spaces" and by posting was feeling my way in > > by probing the level of interest. > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > >> Larry, > >> As I said, I like Benjamin's distinction between surrender and > >> submission but I also think that it is not so simple to introduce new > >> shadings of meaning to a word/concept which is already part of > >> people's vocabulary. For most people, outside the group of those who > >> know about Benjamin's work, surrender WILL still carry felt > >> associations with unwillingly giving up ownership or control of > >> something prized/valued. This is bound to result in miscommunication > >> unless those who use surrender in its new sense signal and explain > >> this use. I think an awareness of how we can expect others to react > >> (body, mind and soul) is a core aspect of communication and ethical > >> behaviour. We can't just occupy that third space and expect others to > surrender to the meanings we want to introduce! > >> > >> Rod > >> > >> Sent from my Windows Phone > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Larry Purss > >> Sent: 19/01/2015 01:29 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > >> > >> Miguel, > >> The article I have been referencing is from Jessica Benjamin's > >> article "Beyond Doer and Done To: An Intersubjective View of > >> Thirdness" There is an extensive bibliography . Interestingly > >> Jessica's dissertation was written in 1978 with the title, > "Internalization and Instrumental Culture: > >> A Reinterpretation of Psychoanalysis and Social Theory" > >> Rod, > >> Jessica references Colwyn Trevarthen as a source of her notion of > >> "surrender". Yes, this word will make some uncomfortable, but this > >> term must be seen as clearly differentiated from the notion of > "submission" > >> which Jessica believes are often conflated. I view "surrender" as > >> Jessica uses the term as an "agentic" act that is ethical. It is an > >> act [or enactment] which is felt as expansive, not as restrictive of > "self" > >> I am going to share a quote from Jessica's paper that she offered to > >> differentiate the palpable difference between "surrender" and > "submission". > >> She is quoting Stephen Mitchell who is a key person in developing > >> relational and hermeneutical psychoanalysis. > >> Mitchell wrote: > >> > >> When my older daughter was about two or so, I remember my excitement > >> at the prospect [LP-imaginal] of taking walks with her, given her new > >> ambulatory skills and her intense interest in being outdoors. > >> However, I soon found these walks agonizingly slow. My idea of a > >> walk entailed brisk movement along a road or path. Her idea was > >> quite different. The implication of this difference hit me one day > >> when we encountered a fallen tree on the side of the road.... > >> The rest of the "walk" was spent exploring the fungal and insect life > >> on, under, and around the tree. I remember my sudden realization > >> that these walks would be no fun for me, merely a parental duty, if I > >> held onto my idea of walks. As I was able to give that up and > >> SURRENDER to my daughter's rhythm and focus, a different type of > >> experience opened up to me..... If I had simply RESTRAINED myself > >> out of duty, I would have experienced the walk as a compliance. But > >> I was able to become my daughter's version of a good companion and to > >> find in THAT another way for me to be that took on great personal > >> meaning" [Benjamin, page 26] > >> > >> For Benjamin and Mitchell this quote expresses the principle of > >> necessary asymmetry, by accommodating to the other as a way of > "generating" > >> thirdness. and within the "surrendering" the person is transformed, > >> through opening up to mutual pleasure. > >> > >> Jessica is asking how we distinguish between the compliance of "twoness" > >> from the transformational learning of thirdness. For Jessica the > >> answer is ethical, in the form of reflections on what will create > >> intersubjective connection in our relationship, and through this > >> reflection, opening up to surrender and transformation. This > >> creative enactment expresses agency and is not coerced. It is an > >> ethical response. This "intention" to connect and the resulting > >> self-observation create what Jessical calls "moral thirdness", the > >> connection to a larger expansive connection beyond giver and given to > that is felt as palpably "right". > >> In all Jessica's work she is distinguishing "surrender" from > "submission" > >> [including submitting to an "ideal" of "pure" empathy. which is a > >> denial of self and leads to complimentary doer and done to. > >> > >> For Jessica this moral third space is the space where > >> "self-regulation" and "co-regulation" meet. But that would require > further elaboration. > >> Larry > >> > >> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >> > >>> Larry, > >>> > >>> Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's > >>> distinction between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I > >>> suspect that both terms might trigger associations for many which > >>> might make them uncomfortable about using them in these ways). Your > >>> observations about possibility > >>> (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and common > >>> experience might contribute to the building of richer and more > >>> extensive possibilities among a community or a group of people who > >>> spend time together (especially 'down' time, when they are more > >>> relaxed and their social guards are down). It is easier and more > agreeable to 'surrender' > >>> into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social > >>> conversation > >> with > >>> no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to > >>> contribute to the co-construction of a third space which is shaped > >>> not so much by > >> the > >>> thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of > >>> interactions between them. This sort of surrendering into a group > >>> feels very different from submitting to the ordered, planned > >>> procedures of a 'getting things done' sort of meeting (though there is > room for overlap). > >>> > >>>> From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very much > >>>> like > >>> what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when baby > >>> and caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for the sake > >>> of > >> engaging > >>> with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the 'great we'). > >>> > >>> I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of our own > >>> and other selves moves in and out of this sort of third space. Vera > >>> captured some lovely aspects of this in her book 'Creative > >>> Collaboration' - how > >> the > >>> 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates the > >>> possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. > >>> > >>> All the best, > >>> > >>> Rod > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > >>> Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > >>> > >>> Rod, I concur with your interpretations. > >>> I would add to your comment: > >>> > >>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to prompt > >>> others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help to > >>> remind > >> them > >>> that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what looks > >>> at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > >>> > >>> The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others > >>> expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's > >>> internalized "scripts". > >>> This is exploring "my" act and your return act. > >>> > >>> Third space notions ask or question if there are "intersubjective" > >>> ways > >> to > >>> enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal > >> "potential" > >>> places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not yet > >>> exist but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of "posse" > >>> [meaning can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a "transformation" > >>> through > >> activities > >>> [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared realm". > >>> > >>> This way of understanding is playing with notions of metaphorical > >>> and imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared > >>> potential spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third spaces > >>> of > >> "possibility" > >>> within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which > >>> things are not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, > >>> categorized, predictable, > >> and > >>> with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". > >>> > >>> What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of "intersubjective" > >>> mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. > >>> > >>> Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" to > >> "exist" > >>> in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other as > >> things > >>> or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced being > >>> reduced by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and > >>> collapses into complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or "doer > and done to" > >>> Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" and > >>> "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic "third" > >>> that which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" > >>> The third space must be enacted performed or take action but moving > >>> out from within this imaginal shared space. > >>> > >>> This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" > >>> becoming actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no absolute > >>> freedom fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint fundamentally. > >>> However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal > >>> symbolic shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This in > >>> no way means "submit" > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > >>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >>> > >>>> I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly > >>>> conscious of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been > explored. > >>>> > >>>> In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a > >>>> significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that it > >>>> should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking > >>>> example of what we all do every day when we make choices about how > >>>> we will represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of clothes, > >>>> how we do our hair, what we smell like, how we stand and walk, how > >>>> we greet people etc. all play off our knowledge of what different > >>>> choices are likely to be taken to mean (by different groups of > >>>> people). I think this links to what Larry (I think) was saying > >>>> about the concept-y-ness of the context-y environment in which babies > play their way into meanings. > >>>> > >>>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to > >>>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help > >>>> to remind them that things are not simple, categorised and > >>>> predictable - what looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out > to be a person! > >>>> > >>>> I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised cultural > >>>> knowledge which informs our choices about how we will present > >>>> ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) feeling of > >>>> ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing how we are > >>>> 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. When the > >>>> rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy to join in > >>>> but when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we need to watch > >>>> from the periphery for a while before we presume to know what we are > doing. > >>>> > >>>> All the best, > >>>> > >>>> Rod > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: > >>>> xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd. > >>>> edu > >>>> ] > >>>> On Behalf Of Larry Purss > >>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > >>>> > >>>> Mike, > >>>> You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and social > >>>> emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" > >>>> rhythmic modalities. > >>>> Thought and language and the figural within enactments > >>>> [performances] > >>>> > >>>> You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say it > >>>> is a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to > >>>> explore what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" and > >>>> cognitive enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in setting > the "scene" > >>>> The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring > >>>> enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the > >>>> "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a > >>>> more > >>> metaphorical enactment. > >>>> Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or is > >>>> the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being in the > >>>> world as "possibility". > >>>> In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a > >>>> "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted > >>>> brings > >>> into "actuality" > >>>> the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a > >>>> possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person > >>>> and enacting this alternative possible "scene". > >>>> The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable > >>>> felt experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" and > >>>> becomes "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over a cane > >>>> was acting from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" > >>>> internal or > >>> external? > >>>> or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? > >>>> Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] > >>>> presence [both internal imagining and external performances] there > >>>> are always palpable felt experiences and every "interpretation" is > >>>> guided by these multi-modal ways of understanding. > >>>> > >>>> Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" and > >>>> "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and palpable > >>>> felt experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal symbolic > >>>> dimension as "potential" or "transitional" spaces > >>>> > >>>> The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third spaces > >>>> is there embodied presence and there witnessing quality which is > >>>> often marginalized or disowned when we privilege a particular > >>>> "type" of rationality and thinking. > >>>> > >>>> What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of "third > >>> spaces" > >>>> is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is > >>>> included and who is excluded. > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot about > >>>>> what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness that I > >>>>> think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out if I am > >>>>> wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). > >>>>> > >>>>> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of > >>>>> my wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in ill > >>>>> health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. > >>>>> Balance is an issue for her. > >>>>> > >>>>> When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed that > >>>>> she was carrying a large staff. > >>>>> I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! > >>>>> and gave her a big hug." > >>>>> > >>>>> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a > >>>>> cane, she lost the invisibility created by old age and she became > >>>>> a perons to others. People constantly started up conversations > >>>>> with her and, being a skilled conversationalist interested in > >>>>> people, it made her feel like a whole person. > >>>>> > >>>>> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or (?) > >>>>> a > >>> tool? > >>>>> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as > >> well. > >>>>> > >>>>> mike > >>>>> > >>>>> mike > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss > >>>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel, Rod, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the other > >>>>>> thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I see > >>>>>> these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that > >>>>>> contrast with > >>>> "twoness" > >>>>>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower > >>>>>> and > >>>>> learner, > >>>>>> etc.] > >>>>>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby > >>>>> watcher's I > >>>>>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one stream > >>>>>> in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan privileges > >>>>>> language in his notion of thirdness. There is also the work of > >>>>>> Stolorow Atwood, and Donna Orange, [intersubjective > >>>>>> psychodynamics] who do not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a > >>>>>> developmental achievement as bothDaniel Stern > >>>>> and > >>>>>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > >>>>>> In Jessica's words: > >>>>>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other as > >>>>>> growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized by > >>>>>> the other, as a crucial component of attachment responses that > >>>>>> require mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, as > >>>>>> ultimately a > >>>> pleasure and not a chore" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and > >>>>>> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. > >>>>>> My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and > >>>>>> rhythmicity] are felt to be > >>>>> in > >>>>>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when there > >>>>>> are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the way to > >>>>>> understanding > >>>>> we > >>>>>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our > >>>>>> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt > >>>> experience. > >>>>>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the "struggle > >>>>>> for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" > >>>>>> Her > >>>>> project > >>>>>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model > >>>>>> for expressing this struggle for recognition. > >>>>>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle for > >>>>>> recognition is through a developmental trajectory of > >>>>>> intersubjective development of thirdness. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through privileging > >>>>>> sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" > >>>>>> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation as > >>>>>> this analytic kernel > >>>>> is > >>>>>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are > >>>>>> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by > >>>>>> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" > >>>> [with the mind's eye?]. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a > >>>>>> father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it gestures > >>>>>> to another > >>>>> dimension, > >>>>>> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. > >>>>>> I > >>>>> would > >>>>>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can > >>>>>> offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied hearing > >>>>>> the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize your > >>>>>> notion of > >>>>> "intersecting" > >>>>>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" > >>>>>> [across > >>>>> verses] > >>>>>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms of > >>>>> learning > >>>>>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y > >>>>>> ways of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of > >>>>>> concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the > >>>>>> children were able to join > >>>>> in > >>>>>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be able > >>>>>> to > >>>>> explain > >>>>>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" or > >>>>> "context" > >>>>>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and > >>>>>> historically situated. > >>>>>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, > >>>>>> Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are > >>>>>> indicating is the > >>>>> centrality > >>>>>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also > >>>>>> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. > >>>>>> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this > >>>>>> does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, > >>>>>> and a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply > >>>>>> concept-y and > >>>>> institutionalized > >>>>>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we > >>>>>> ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > >>>>>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically > >>>>>> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" > >>>>>> AS potentially liberating contexts. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two > >>>>>> basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project is > >>>>>> to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in > >>>>>> understanding the notion > >>>>> of > >>>>>> "recognition". > >>>>>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer and > >>>>>> done > >>>>> to > >>>>>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" > >>>>> within > >>>>>> thirdness. > >>>>>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as > >>>>> an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > >>>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > >>>> > >>>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended > >>>> solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. 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Nothing in this email or its attachments > >>>> constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an > official order form. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > >>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > >>> > >>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended > >>> solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you > >>> are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other > >>> use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you > >>> should not rely on > >> it. > >>> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > >>> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are > >>> not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth > >>> University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your > >>> responsibility to scan > >> emails > >>> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > >>> responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in > >>> this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or > >>> services unless accompanied by an official order form. > >>> > >>> > >> ________________________________ > >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > >> > >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > >> for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not > >> the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > >> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > it. > >> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > >> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are > >> not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > >> accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility > >> to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not > >> accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing > >> in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or > >> services unless accompanied by an official order form. > >> > >> > > > > --- > Este email foi escaneado pelo Avast antiv?rus. > http://www.avast.com > > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Tue Jan 20 07:46:09 2015 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 15:46:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <1421768768556.10615@ucdenver.edu> everyone, when Mike wrote: "I am guessing that from a CHAT point of view (I am making this up as I go along), every time we choose a word to speak or a tool to fix our car with, we must submit to the specialized constraints of using that particular means of achieving the end-in-mind." i thought to myself about how every context we find ourselves in, we have to learn "the specialized constraints of using that particular means" - which is often what we label as "education" or "learning". we learn how to be an alcoholic at AA - just as we learn how to participate on this xmca list serve - with a particular submission to mastering the vocabulary, the sentence length, the response and call genre; all attended to by gentle or not so gentle critiques or supports, not to mention silence or shunning. the old lady discarded the cane with its attendant cultural signs - feeble, decrepitude, weak, fragile, etc. for the staff, a cultural sign of the shepherd, Gandolf the powerful sage, Merlin the wizard, the crone, the pilgrim, the searcher, the leader. a staff can also be used as a cudgel, as well as in the 23rd psalm, a source of comfort. (and isn't it interesting that we've no mythological female figures with a staff?) so, while Mike wrote that "she subordinated herself to the conditions of using a large staff instead of a handy cane", i'd like to suggest that she refused to subordinate herself of the conditions of using a cane, rejecting the cultural constraints of a cane, for the more powerful constraints of the staff - thereby transforming how she was seen. her refusal to submit to the identity associated with the cane provided space - a third space perhaps - to avoid the oppression of ageism, and take up the identity of the wise elder wielding the staff of inner strength and wisdom. phillip From Peg.Griffin@att.net Tue Jan 20 08:29:32 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 11:29:32 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003a01d034ce$4609f770$d21de650$@att.net> As a certified participant observer in old ladyhood, and one not at all unlikely to use "instead of's" and "as if's," I was impressed by the specific way you phrased this: "suggestion that the old lady and the staff story might be interpreted as her use of the method of dual stimulation. She subordinated herself to the conditions of using a large staff instead of a handy cane, and thereby transformed herself by transforming the way others responded to her." Maybe I have thought this or close to this before, but for me, this phrasing brings up a relation (similarity and difference) to children's play. Think of the example of the child using a broom as playful riding of a horse. Here, the old lady uses her "mis-appropriation" within an act of transformation. With children, teachers or parents or other elders, may mis-appropriate children's play -- having children trot or canter or gallup into the classroom as a way to engage them in a transition between space or activity. What's different? Well I'm teasing myself with the notion of "second order" -- for the old lady there's extra consciousness and that "extra" bit is acted by the adult in the case of the children. Hmmmm. I am also struck by a phrase in your first paragraph: "every time we choose a word to speak or a tool to fix our car with, we must submit to the specialized constraints." Actually, I was post-hoc struck by it when I was relaxing after a good MLK Day by catching up on an intriguing Paul Krugman column. Living through these particular interesting times, seems to mean figuring out how to negotiate social and political intercourse with those who don't submit to some of the constraints: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/19/opinion/paul-krugman-hating-good-government.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region®ion=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region&_r=0 Love from a certified little old lady with tennis shoes, now picking out a staff... Peg -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Monday, January 19, 2015 9:16 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions I am listening politely, Henry. I am guessing that from a CHAT point of view (I am making this up as I go along), every time we choose a word to speak or a tool to fix our car with, we must submit to the specialized constraints of using that particular means of achieving the end-in-mind. ?I do not want to start another subject line here, because I think they are connected, but if someone has time to respond to my suggestion that the old lady and the staff story might be interpreted as her use of the method of dual stimulation. She subordinated herself to the conditions of using a large staff instead of a handy cane, and thereby transformed herself by transforming the way others responded to her. Any takers? Wrong headed? Has potential? ? ?mike? On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 4:38 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Larry, > Do you think it?s sad-masochistic of me to suggest that we give > submission a chance? Unanalyzed, ?submission?, not even a suggestion > of a hyphen, as a juicy chunk, I think of Islam, or what I know of it > through a hodge podge of media and friendships. But break it down, > without even going to the dictionary, ?sub-mission? has the ring of > commitment to a project. As a legal term, my dictionary has > ?submission? as ?an agreement between parties involved in a dispute?. > Here?s more from the semantic cluster: A synonym for ?submission? is > ?yield?, from the Middle English. It?s worth mashing up latinate and > germanic etymology and morphology to set up mnemonics for the > discourse. So, when, if ever, is it good to ?submit?, ?give in?? I > submit to the good will of la gente of this chat. There?s gotta be > respect and trust. Among other things, that means it has to be > voluntary and de buena voluntad. And transparent? Let me suggest a > prototypical narrative of > submission: Motherhood. Giving birth and all of that jazz. Creativity > with a capital ?C?. Here?s another: death. Everything in between is up > for grabs I guess. Probably lots of diversity as they say in the game. > Please, chatters, don?t feel the need to respond. I?ll take silence as good sign. > Like, you?re listening politely. > Submissively > Henry > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > Rod, > > In the spirit of your caution and acknowledging its truth value, I > > want > to > > say I was hesitant to use the term "surrender" for how it would be > > misunderstood. In a similar way to the misunderstandings of the > > term "mind". > > > > I will mention that Jessica is consciously using the word > > "surrender" as NOT "submission" as she tries to articulate a > > nypothesis that sees > through > > "domination" and the struggle to the death of complimentary "recognition" > > I fully expect Jessica's work to instigate passionate responses. > > Her work does develop from Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer, Fromm and > > the Frankfurt school. > > Jessica says we have conflated "surrender" with "submission" and > Jessica's > > use of the term "surrender" must be seen as being engaged in > > exploring > [and > > putting in play] notions of instrumental internalized "self-regulation" > AND > > notions of the "third space" as coming into being through > > "surrender" to > a > > place of potentiality and possibility that is moving "beyond" > > self-assertion as a complimentary struggle to the death. > > > > Rod, the play of "active" and "receptive" thirds [in contrast to > > active > and > > passive twoness] is the place which Jessica is inviting us to occupy. > > > > Notions of "surrender" carry huge baggage and and will invite > > palpable rejection as concepts. This is a fact. It is challenging > > particular > notions > > of "subjective" and "intersubjective" > > However, if we begin within a dialogical awareness and acknowledge > > that using a term such as "surrender" will be read by most and > > rejected as implying "submission" and "domination" and "passivity" > > and "loosing the self", then the process that you and I are engaged > > in at this moment is > the > > hermeneutical enactment of differentiating and "marking" the > > distinctions the distinctions between "surrender" and "submission" > > Jessica is asking > us > > to pause and be reflective and consider this distinction. > > > > Rod, Jessica is working within a "tradition" [the Frankfurt School > > where she is in dialogue with Hegel, Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer. > > Her project > is > > to "see through" the patterns of complimentary "twoness" [doer and > > done > to > > giver and given to]. The term "surrender" is being used within this > > tradition. > > > > This term "surrender" [as exemplified in Stephen Mitchell's story of > > letting go of his "idea" of "a walk" to enter his daughter's > > enactment of "a walk" is central to Jessica's notion of > > living-in-truth. Yes, it invites further dialogue and will be > > misunderstood. It requires further dialogue. > > > > I could have tried to write an essay fully outlining the term "surrender" > > This word has sparked considerable response within the tradition of > > feminism. I could also she it being challenged as Eurocentric or too > > psychological [emphasizing both accommodation and differentiation]. > > > > Posting to the listserve and inviting commentary and further > > questions on the term "surrender" is another approach. > > > > I also hoped to find a "bridge" to Kris' understanding of "third space" > and > > her exploration of intersubjective testimonio as hybrid co-creative > > mutual rhythmic patterns forming within third spaces. I see a > > quality of "surrender" [as Jessica uses the term] in Kris' > > exploration of third spaces. > > > > Vygotsky explores internalized "self-regulation" as a developmental task. > > Jessica suggests the development of self regulation moves through > > asymmetrical accommodation AND differentiation. For Jessica this > > psychological development [if it is to form third spaces] requires > > asymmetrical agentic active "surrender" as a way beyond a struggle > > to the death of complimentary twoness. > > In summary, I understand Jessica's work as an aspect of cultural > > historical understanding, that includes social theory of emotions > > and cognition and culture that is historical. > > The term "surrender" is a discursive and dialogical form of enactment. > > It was offered in the spirit of open ended dialogue but I was aware > > and took a chance in using the word "surrender" Another word would > > have been less controversial but I do question if being > > misunderstood and then requiring further clarification is an approach with some value. > > > > I do not intend the use of "surrender" as an alternative approach to > > cultural historical theory. > > The use of this term is meant in a spirit of dialogue and the > > "piety" of questions inviting answers. > > Rod, in the way I presented the term "surrender", I may have > > elaborated further, and clarified more, but I was not sure if there > > were others who shared an interest in this topic of complimentary > > twoness and co-creative thirdness. I was interested in going deeper > > into > understanding > > "third spaces" and by posting was feeling my way in by probing the > > level > of > > interest. > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > >> Larry, > >> As I said, I like Benjamin's distinction between surrender and > submission > >> but I also think that it is not so simple to introduce new shadings > >> of meaning to a word/concept which is already part of people's vocabulary. > For > >> most people, outside the group of those who know about Benjamin's > >> work, surrender WILL still carry felt associations with unwillingly > >> giving up ownership or control of something prized/valued. This is > >> bound to result in miscommunication unless those who use surrender > >> in its new sense > signal > >> and explain this use. I think an awareness of how we can expect > >> others > to > >> react (body, mind and soul) is a core aspect of communication and > ethical > >> behaviour. We can't just occupy that third space and expect others > >> to surrender to the meanings we want to introduce! > >> > >> Rod > >> > >> Sent from my Windows Phone > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Larry Purss > >> Sent: 19/01/2015 01:29 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > >> > >> Miguel, > >> The article I have been referencing is from Jessica Benjamin's > >> article "Beyond Doer and Done To: An Intersubjective View of > >> Thirdness" There > is > >> an extensive bibliography . Interestingly Jessica's dissertation > >> was written in 1978 with the title, "Internalization and > >> Instrumental > Culture: > >> A Reinterpretation of Psychoanalysis and Social Theory" > >> Rod, > >> Jessica references Colwyn Trevarthen as a source of her notion of > >> "surrender". Yes, this word will make some uncomfortable, but this > >> term must be seen as clearly differentiated from the notion of "submission" > >> which Jessica believes are often conflated. I view "surrender" as > Jessica > >> uses the term as an "agentic" act that is ethical. It is an act [or > >> enactment] which is felt as expansive, not as restrictive of "self" > >> I am going to share a quote from Jessica's paper that she offered > >> to differentiate the palpable difference between "surrender" and > "submission". > >> She is quoting Stephen Mitchell who is a key person in developing > >> relational and hermeneutical psychoanalysis. > >> Mitchell wrote: > >> > >> When my older daughter was about two or so, I remember my > >> excitement at > the > >> prospect [LP-imaginal] of taking walks with her, given her new > ambulatory > >> skills and her intense interest in being outdoors. However, I soon > found > >> these walks agonizingly slow. My idea of a walk entailed brisk > >> movement along a road or path. Her idea was quite different. The > >> implication of this difference hit me one day when we encountered a > >> fallen tree on the side of the road.... > >> The rest of the "walk" was spent exploring the fungal and insect > >> life > on, > >> under, and around the tree. I remember my sudden realization that > >> these walks would be no fun for me, merely a parental duty, if I > >> held onto my idea of walks. As I was able to give that up and > >> SURRENDER to my daughter's rhythm and focus, a different type of > >> experience opened up to me..... If I had simply RESTRAINED myself > >> out of duty, I would have experienced the walk as a compliance. > >> But I was able to become my daughter's version of a good companion > >> and to find in THAT another way > for > >> me to be that took on great personal meaning" [Benjamin, page 26] > >> > >> For Benjamin and Mitchell this quote expresses the principle of > necessary > >> asymmetry, by accommodating to the other as a way of "generating" > >> thirdness. and within the "surrendering" the person is transformed, > through > >> opening up to mutual pleasure. > >> > >> Jessica is asking how we distinguish between the compliance of "twoness" > >> from the transformational learning of thirdness. For Jessica the > >> answer > is > >> ethical, in the form of reflections on what will create > >> intersubjective connection in our relationship, and through this > >> reflection, opening up > to > >> surrender and transformation. This creative enactment expresses > >> agency > and > >> is not coerced. It is an ethical response. This "intention" to > >> connect > and > >> the resulting self-observation create what Jessical calls "moral > >> thirdness", the connection to a larger expansive connection beyond > >> giver and given to that is felt as palpably "right". > >> In all Jessica's work she is distinguishing "surrender" from > "submission" > >> [including submitting to an "ideal" of "pure" empathy. which is a > denial of > >> self and leads to complimentary doer and done to. > >> > >> For Jessica this moral third space is the space where "self-regulation" > and > >> "co-regulation" meet. But that would require further elaboration. > >> Larry > >> > >> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >> > >>> Larry, > >>> > >>> Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's > distinction > >>> between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I suspect that > >>> both > terms > >>> might trigger associations for many which might make them > >>> uncomfortable about using them in these ways). Your observations > >>> about possibility > >>> (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and common > >>> experience might contribute to the building of richer and more > extensive > >>> possibilities among a community or a group of people who spend > >>> time together (especially 'down' time, when they are more relaxed > >>> and their social guards are down). It is easier and more agreeable to 'surrender' > >>> into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social > >>> conversation > >> with > >>> no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to > contribute > >>> to the co-construction of a third space which is shaped not so > >>> much by > >> the > >>> thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of > >>> interactions between them. This sort of surrendering into a group > >>> feels very > different > >>> from submitting to the ordered, planned procedures of a 'getting > >>> things done' sort of meeting (though there is room for overlap). > >>> > >>>> From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very > >>>> much > like > >>> what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when > >>> baby and caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for the > >>> sake of > >> engaging > >>> with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the 'great we'). > >>> > >>> I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of our > >>> own > and > >>> other selves moves in and out of this sort of third space. Vera > captured > >>> some lovely aspects of this in her book 'Creative Collaboration' - > >>> how > >> the > >>> 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates the > >>> possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. > >>> > >>> All the best, > >>> > >>> Rod > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > >>> Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > >>> > >>> Rod, I concur with your interpretations. > >>> I would add to your comment: > >>> > >>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to > >>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help > >>> to remind > >> them > >>> that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what > >>> looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > >>> > >>> The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others > >>> expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's > >>> internalized "scripts". > >>> This is exploring "my" act and your return act. > >>> > >>> Third space notions ask or question if there are "intersubjective" > >>> ways > >> to > >>> enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal > >> "potential" > >>> places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not yet > >>> exist but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of > >>> "posse" [meaning can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a > >>> "transformation" through > >> activities > >>> [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared realm". > >>> > >>> This way of understanding is playing with notions of metaphorical > >>> and imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared > >>> potential spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third > >>> spaces of > >> "possibility" > >>> within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which > >>> things > are > >>> not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, categorized, > >>> predictable, > >> and > >>> with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". > >>> > >>> What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of "intersubjective" > >>> mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. > >>> > >>> Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" > >>> to > >> "exist" > >>> in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other > >>> as > >> things > >>> or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced being > reduced > >>> by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and collapses > >>> into complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or "doer and done to" > >>> Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" and > >>> "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic "third" > that > >>> which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" > >>> The third space must be enacted performed or take action but > >>> moving out from within this imaginal shared space. > >>> > >>> This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" > >>> becoming actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no absolute > >>> freedom fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint fundamentally. > >>> However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal > >>> symbolic shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This > >>> in no way means "submit" > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > >>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >>> > >>>> I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly > >>>> conscious of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been explored. > >>>> > >>>> In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a > >>>> significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that > >>>> it should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking > >>>> example of what we all do every day when we make choices about > >>>> how we will represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of > >>>> clothes, how we do our hair, what we smell like, how we stand and > >>>> walk, how we greet people etc. all play off our knowledge of what > >>>> different choices are likely to be taken to mean (by different > >>>> groups of people). I think this links to what Larry (I think) was > >>>> saying about the concept-y-ness of the context-y environment in > >>>> which babies play their way into > meanings. > >>>> > >>>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to > >>>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might > >>>> help to remind them that things are not simple, categorised and > >>>> predictable - what looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > >>>> > >>>> I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised > >>>> cultural knowledge which informs our choices about how we will > >>>> present ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) > >>>> feeling of ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing > >>>> how we are 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. > >>>> When the rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy > >>>> to join in but when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we > >>>> need to watch from the periphery for a while before we presume to know what we are doing. > >>>> > >>>> All the best, > >>>> > >>>> Rod > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: > >>>> xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees= > plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>> ] > >>>> On Behalf Of Larry Purss > >>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > >>>> > >>>> Mike, > >>>> You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and > >>>> social emotions are intimately involved along with other > >>>> "musical" rhythmic modalities. > >>>> Thought and language and the figural within enactments > >>>> [performances] > >>>> > >>>> You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say > >>>> it is a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to > >>>> explore what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" > >>>> and cognitive enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in setting the "scene" > >>>> The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring > >>>> enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the > >>>> "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a > >>>> more > >>> metaphorical enactment. > >>>> Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or > >>>> is the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being > >>>> in the world as "possibility". > >>>> In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a > >>>> "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted > >>>> brings > >>> into "actuality" > >>>> the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a > >>>> possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person > >>>> and enacting this alternative possible "scene". > >>>> The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable > >>>> felt experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" > >>>> and becomes "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over > >>>> a cane was acting from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is > >>>> this "place" internal or > >>> external? > >>>> or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? > >>>> Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] > >>>> presence [both internal imagining and external performances] > >>>> there are always palpable felt experiences and every > >>>> "interpretation" is guided by these multi-modal ways of understanding. > >>>> > >>>> Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" > >>>> and "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and > >>>> palpable felt experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal > >>>> symbolic dimension as "potential" or "transitional" spaces > >>>> > >>>> The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third > >>>> spaces is there embodied presence and there witnessing quality > >>>> which is often marginalized or disowned when we privilege a > >>>> particular "type" of rationality and thinking. > >>>> > >>>> What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of > >>>> "third > >>> spaces" > >>>> is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is > >>>> included and who is excluded. > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot > >>>>> about what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness > >>>>> that I think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out > >>>>> if I am wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). > >>>>> > >>>>> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of > >>>>> my wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in > >>>>> ill health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. > >>>>> Balance is an issue for her. > >>>>> > >>>>> When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed > >>>>> that she was carrying a large staff. > >>>>> I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! > >>>>> and gave her a big hug." > >>>>> > >>>>> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a > >>>>> cane, she lost the invisibility created by old age and she > >>>>> became a perons to others. People constantly started up > >>>>> conversations with her and, being a skilled conversationalist > >>>>> interested in people, it made her feel like a whole person. > >>>>> > >>>>> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or > >>>>> (?) a > >>> tool? > >>>>> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as > >> well. > >>>>> > >>>>> mike > >>>>> > >>>>> mike > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss > >>>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel, Rod, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the > >>>>>> other thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I > >>>>>> see these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that > >>>>>> contrast with > >>>> "twoness" > >>>>>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower > >>>>>> and > >>>>> learner, > >>>>>> etc.] > >>>>>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby > >>>>> watcher's I > >>>>>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one > >>>>>> stream in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan > >>>>>> privileges language in his notion of thirdness. There is also > >>>>>> the work of Stolorow Atwood, and Donna Orange, [intersubjective > >>>>>> psychodynamics] who do not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a > >>>>>> developmental achievement as bothDaniel Stern > >>>>> and > >>>>>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > >>>>>> In Jessica's words: > >>>>>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other > >>>>>> as growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized > >>>>>> by the other, as a crucial component of attachment responses > >>>>>> that require mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, > >>>>>> as ultimately a > >>>> pleasure and not a chore" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and > >>>>>> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. > >>>>>> My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and > >>>>>> rhythmicity] are felt to be > >>>>> in > >>>>>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when > >>>>>> there are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the > >>>>>> way to understanding > >>>>> we > >>>>>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our > >>>>>> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt > >>>> experience. > >>>>>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the > >>>>>> "struggle for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" > >>>>>> Her > >>>>> project > >>>>>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model > >>>>>> for expressing this struggle for recognition. > >>>>>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle > >>>>>> for recognition is through a developmental trajectory of > >>>>>> intersubjective development of thirdness. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through > >>>>>> privileging sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" > >>>>>> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation > >>>>>> as this analytic kernel > >>>>> is > >>>>>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are > >>>>>> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by > >>>>>> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" > >>>> [with the mind's eye?]. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a > >>>>>> father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it > >>>>>> gestures to another > >>>>> dimension, > >>>>>> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. > >>>>>> I > >>>>> would > >>>>>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can > >>>>>> offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied > >>>>>> hearing the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize > >>>>>> your notion of > >>>>> "intersecting" > >>>>>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" > >>>>>> [across > >>>>> verses] > >>>>>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms > >>>>>> of > >>>>> learning > >>>>>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y > >>>>>> ways of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of > >>>>>> concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the > >>>>>> children were able to join > >>>>> in > >>>>>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be > >>>>>> able to > >>>>> explain > >>>>>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" > >>>>>> or > >>>>> "context" > >>>>>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and > >>>>>> historically situated. > >>>>>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, > >>>>>> Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are > >>>>>> indicating is the > >>>>> centrality > >>>>>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also > >>>>>> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. > >>>>>> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this > >>>>>> does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, > >>>>>> and a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply > >>>>>> concept-y and > >>>>> institutionalized > >>>>>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we > >>>>>> ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > >>>>>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically > >>>>>> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" > >>>>>> AS potentially liberating contexts. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two > >>>>>> basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project > >>>>>> is to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in > >>>>>> understanding the notion > >>>>> of > >>>>>> "recognition". > >>>>>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer > >>>>>> and done > >>>>> to > >>>>>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" > >>>>> within > >>>>>> thirdness. > >>>>>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science > >>>>> as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > >>>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > >>>> > >>>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended > >>>> solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If > >>>> you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or > >>>> other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and > >>>> you should not rely > on > >>> it. > >>>> If you have received this email in error please let the sender > >>>> know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet > >>>> emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, > >>>> Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it > >>>> is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. > >>>> Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any > >>>> changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > >>>> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > >>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > >>> > >>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended > >>> solely > for > >>> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not > >>> the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of > >>> the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should > >>> not rely on > >> it. > >>> If you have received this email in error please let the sender > >>> know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet > >>> emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, > >>> Plymouth University > accepts > >>> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to > >>> scan > >> emails > >>> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > responsibility > >>> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or > >>> its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless > accompanied > >>> by an official order form. > >>> > >>> > >> ________________________________ > >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > >> > >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended > >> solely > for > >> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not > >> the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of > >> the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not > >> rely on > it. > >> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > >> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are > >> not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth > >> University > accepts > >> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan > emails > >> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > responsibility > >> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or > >> its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless > accompanied > >> by an official order form. > >> > >> > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Tue Jan 20 11:11:47 2015 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 19:11:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: <003a01d034ce$4609f770$d21de650$@att.net> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> , <003a01d034ce$4609f770$d21de650$@att.net> Message-ID: <1421781106456.45922@ucdenver.edu> everyone, Peg's conclusion, "Living through these particular interesting times, seems to mean figuring out how to negotiate social and political intercourse with those who don't submit to some of the constraints." reminded me of the opacity of queer talk, certainly another third space, which might interest those of you interested in CHAT beyond heteronormativity. . http://www.e-flux.com/journal/the-opacity-of-queer-language-2/ phillip From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Tue Jan 20 11:24:50 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 19:24:50 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> <001701d034b2$3b06d170$b1147450$@terra.com.br> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022930B3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102293237@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> I have had to read hastily, Larry and I am not at all sure that I have followed you and Jessica Benjamin through the psychoanalytical accounts of intersubjectivity but I wanted to pick up on her point about the 'marking' of the mother's response to a baby's distress (not simply mirroring this back in the same form as it came from the baby). The mother/parent is perhaps able to use an internalised thirdness to see the (future) autonomous self in the actions of the baby, perceiving these through a sociocultural filter and responding 'as if' the baby was already a (more competent) social agent - or perhaps it is more that the parent responds as if the interaction is already such as is had between enculturated agents - moving into a third space into which the baby is also drawn. Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss Sent: 20 January 2015 15:41 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions Rod, Yes, and the surrender she is exploring is of the intersubjective type [subject subject complimentarity transformed. This is in contrast to submission as a relation in which some "one" [person or "idea" is "dominant" and privileged such a patriarchal father,] To sub-mit for Jessica enacts some "one" is "over"-seeing. In her example of the walk with the two year old, if this walk becomes "duty" through an act of self- assertion or self-regulation this duty becomes some"thing" which the parent submits to and there is no longer a sense of mutual intersubjective delight in surrendering to the "third" that mutual potential space. Jessica describes this tension between subjective complimentary twoness [i.e. patriarchal father as over lord] and the who submits to the "one" [person or ideal] AND intersubjective "thirdness" as a tension which will never be dialectically resolved. Thirdness will always rupture and need repair. Jessica's is a "moral" third and is a developmental "achievement". It requires first having participated and been "held" or "witnessed" within palpable felt experience which creates a thirdness of intersubjective attunement. This is "accommodation". The mother's gestures must be "marked" to the rhythm of the babies moods and affect as attunement to a rhythmic "dance". This is the context or ZPD in which "differentiation" from fusion within "oneness" occurs. This intersubjective model recognizes that this type of developmental "learning" must be co-created and requires the "symbolic" third which explores as metaphorical enactments of (a)symmetry. The parent must act from within "reflective" presence enacting the third by "morally" surrendering to the rhythm or musical patterning using cultural historical tools and understandings. I read Jessica as "seeing through" the historical constellation of two independent subjectivie standpoints in relations of complimentarity and one is "over" and the other "under" in relations of domination. Submitting to a fundamental already known "one" is not intersubjective asymmetrical enactments which call forth surrender of the person through rhythmical attunements to the other as the "basis" for differentiation of the two subjectivities through the moral reflections of the care giver. This model understands maturity as the care giver having her own subjectivity and "twoness" and "thirdness" are never resolved or transcended . They co-exist and the care giver must develop the capacity or disposition for co-creating attuned, differentiated, and symbolic thirdness. What Jessica is suggesting is this process collapses into complimentary doer and done to without the recognition this is continually co-created "MORAL" thirdness that intentionally resists either/or enactments which demand patriarchical recognition and the other must in duty submit The tension is never overcome and it is inevitable that thirdness will collapse into twoness. This will be felt as a loss of thirdness and the moral struggle is through reflection for the more mature one to re-establish thirdness through recognition that the thirdness shifted towards self-assertive twoness. It takes the commitment for the person in the lead to recognize he/she returned to "twoness" and caused a rupture and to sincerely communicate this "truth" to the other participant(s) so the felt inevitable disregulation can be validated as a felt truth. This acknowledge is capable of reopening this space of thirdness, this metaphorical space of potentiality and possibility. This model is "intersubjective" not subjective Larry On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 5:23 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > But Benjamin would argue that this is surrender (jointly giving up a > focus on self in order to focus on a shared 'third' space of > relationship) rather than submission (losing self in/to the relationship). > > Bartels and Zeki (The neural correlates of maternal and romantic love, > Neuroimage, 2004, 21, 1155-66) suggest that love is associated with a > reduction of activity in parts of the brain associated with social > evaluation - so love is, in some respects, blind and lovers (of their > own babies or of romantic partners) may be more willing to surrender > despite what others might see as flaws in the objects of their love! > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Maria Judith Sucupira da > Costa Lins > Sent: 20 January 2015 13:09 > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > Subject: [Xmca-l] RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > Submission is presente also in true love. > maria > > -----Mensagem original----- > De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] Em nome de HENRY SHONERD Enviada em: > segunda-feira, 19 de janeiro de 2015 22:39 > Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > Larry, > Do you think it?s sad-masochistic of me to suggest that we give > submission a chance? Unanalyzed, ?submission?, not even a suggestion > of a hyphen, as a juicy chunk, I think of Islam, or what I know of it > through a hodge podge of media and friendships. But break it down, > without even going to the dictionary, ?sub-mission? has the ring of > commitment to a project. As a legal term, my dictionary has > ?submission? as ?an agreement between parties involved in a dispute?. > Here?s more from the semantic cluster: A synonym for ?submission? is > ?yield?, from the Middle English. It?s worth mashing up latinate and > germanic etymology and morphology to set up mnemonics for the > discourse. So, when, if ever, is it good to ?submit?, ?give in?? I > submit to the good will of la gente of this chat. There?s gotta be > respect and trust. Among other things, that means it has to be > voluntary and de buena voluntad. And transparent? Let me suggest a > prototypical narr ative of > submission: Motherhood. Giving birth and all of that jazz. Creativity > with a capital ?C?. Here?s another: death. Everything in between is up > for grabs I guess. Probably lots of diversity as they say in the game. > Please, chatters, don?t feel the need to respond. I?ll take silence as good sign. > Like, you?re listening politely. > Submissively > Henry > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > Rod, > > In the spirit of your caution and acknowledging its truth value, I > > want to say I was hesitant to use the term "surrender" for how it > > would be misunderstood. In a similar way to the misunderstandings > > of the term "mind". > > > > I will mention that Jessica is consciously using the word "surrender" > > as NOT "submission" as she tries to articulate a nypothesis that > > sees through "domination" and the struggle to the death of > > complimentary > "recognition" > > I fully expect Jessica's work to instigate passionate responses. > > Her work does develop from Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer, Fromm and > > the Frankfurt school. > > Jessica says we have conflated "surrender" with "submission" and > > Jessica's use of the term "surrender" must be seen as being engaged > > in exploring [and putting in play] notions of instrumental > > internalized "self-regulation" AND notions of the "third space" as > > coming into being through "surrender" to a place of potentiality and > > possibility > that is moving "beyond" > > self-assertion as a complimentary struggle to the death. > > > > Rod, the play of "active" and "receptive" thirds [in contrast to > > active and passive twoness] is the place which Jessica is inviting > > us to > occupy. > > > > Notions of "surrender" carry huge baggage and and will invite > > palpable rejection as concepts. This is a fact. It is challenging > > particular notions of "subjective" and "intersubjective" > > However, if we begin within a dialogical awareness and acknowledge > > that using a term such as "surrender" will be read by most and > > rejected as implying "submission" and "domination" and "passivity" > > and "loosing the self", then the process that you and I are engaged > > in at this moment is the hermeneutical enactment of differentiating > > and "marking" the distinctions the distinctions between "surrender" > > and "submission" Jessica is asking us to pause and be reflective and > consider this distinction. > > > > Rod, Jessica is working within a "tradition" [the Frankfurt School > > where she is in dialogue with Hegel, Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer. > > Her project is to "see through" the patterns of complimentary "twoness" > > [doer and done to giver and given to]. The term "surrender" is being > > used within this tradition. > > > > This term "surrender" [as exemplified in Stephen Mitchell's story of > > letting go of his "idea" of "a walk" to enter his daughter's > > enactment of "a walk" is central to Jessica's notion of > > living-in-truth. Yes, it invites further dialogue and will be > > misunderstood. It requires further dialogue. > > > > I could have tried to write an essay fully outlining the term "surrender" > > This word has sparked considerable response within the tradition of > > feminism. I could also she it being challenged as Eurocentric or too > > psychological [emphasizing both accommodation and differentiation]. > > > > Posting to the listserve and inviting commentary and further > > questions on the term "surrender" is another approach. > > > > I also hoped to find a "bridge" to Kris' understanding of "third > > space" and her exploration of intersubjective testimonio as hybrid > > co-creative mutual rhythmic patterns forming within third spaces. I > > see a quality of "surrender" [as Jessica uses the term] in Kris' > > exploration of third spaces. > > > > Vygotsky explores internalized "self-regulation" as a developmental task. > > Jessica suggests the development of self regulation moves through > > asymmetrical accommodation AND differentiation. For Jessica this > > psychological development [if it is to form third spaces] requires > > asymmetrical agentic active "surrender" as a way beyond a struggle > > to the death of complimentary twoness. > > In summary, I understand Jessica's work as an aspect of cultural > > historical understanding, that includes social theory of emotions > > and cognition and culture that is historical. > > The term "surrender" is a discursive and dialogical form of enactment. > > It was offered in the spirit of open ended dialogue but I was aware > > and took a chance in using the word "surrender" Another word would > > have been less controversial but I do question if being > > misunderstood and then requiring further clarification is an approach with some value. > > > > I do not intend the use of "surrender" as an alternative approach to > > cultural historical theory. > > The use of this term is meant in a spirit of dialogue and the "piety" > > of questions inviting answers. > > Rod, in the way I presented the term "surrender", I may have > > elaborated further, and clarified more, but I was not sure if there > > were others who shared an interest in this topic of complimentary > > twoness and co-creative thirdness. I was interested in going deeper > > into understanding "third spaces" and by posting was feeling my way > > in by probing the level of interest. > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > >> Larry, > >> As I said, I like Benjamin's distinction between surrender and > >> submission but I also think that it is not so simple to introduce > >> new shadings of meaning to a word/concept which is already part of > >> people's vocabulary. For most people, outside the group of those > >> who know about Benjamin's work, surrender WILL still carry felt > >> associations with unwillingly giving up ownership or control of > >> something prized/valued. This is bound to result in > >> miscommunication unless those who use surrender in its new sense > >> signal and explain this use. I think an awareness of how we can > >> expect others to react (body, mind and soul) is a core aspect of > >> communication and ethical behaviour. We can't just occupy that > >> third space and expect others to > surrender to the meanings we want to introduce! > >> > >> Rod > >> > >> Sent from my Windows Phone > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Larry Purss > >> Sent: 19/01/2015 01:29 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > >> > >> Miguel, > >> The article I have been referencing is from Jessica Benjamin's > >> article "Beyond Doer and Done To: An Intersubjective View of > >> Thirdness" There is an extensive bibliography . Interestingly > >> Jessica's dissertation was written in 1978 with the title, > "Internalization and Instrumental Culture: > >> A Reinterpretation of Psychoanalysis and Social Theory" > >> Rod, > >> Jessica references Colwyn Trevarthen as a source of her notion of > >> "surrender". Yes, this word will make some uncomfortable, but this > >> term must be seen as clearly differentiated from the notion of > "submission" > >> which Jessica believes are often conflated. I view "surrender" as > >> Jessica uses the term as an "agentic" act that is ethical. It is an > >> act [or enactment] which is felt as expansive, not as restrictive > >> of > "self" > >> I am going to share a quote from Jessica's paper that she offered > >> to differentiate the palpable difference between "surrender" and > "submission". > >> She is quoting Stephen Mitchell who is a key person in developing > >> relational and hermeneutical psychoanalysis. > >> Mitchell wrote: > >> > >> When my older daughter was about two or so, I remember my > >> excitement at the prospect [LP-imaginal] of taking walks with her, > >> given her new ambulatory skills and her intense interest in being outdoors. > >> However, I soon found these walks agonizingly slow. My idea of a > >> walk entailed brisk movement along a road or path. Her idea was > >> quite different. The implication of this difference hit me one day > >> when we encountered a fallen tree on the side of the road.... > >> The rest of the "walk" was spent exploring the fungal and insect > >> life on, under, and around the tree. I remember my sudden > >> realization that these walks would be no fun for me, merely a > >> parental duty, if I held onto my idea of walks. As I was able to > >> give that up and SURRENDER to my daughter's rhythm and focus, a > >> different type of experience opened up to me..... If I had simply > >> RESTRAINED myself out of duty, I would have experienced the walk as > >> a compliance. But I was able to become my daughter's version of a > >> good companion and to find in THAT another way for me to be that > >> took on great personal meaning" [Benjamin, page 26] > >> > >> For Benjamin and Mitchell this quote expresses the principle of > >> necessary asymmetry, by accommodating to the other as a way of > "generating" > >> thirdness. and within the "surrendering" the person is transformed, > >> through opening up to mutual pleasure. > >> > >> Jessica is asking how we distinguish between the compliance of "twoness" > >> from the transformational learning of thirdness. For Jessica the > >> answer is ethical, in the form of reflections on what will create > >> intersubjective connection in our relationship, and through this > >> reflection, opening up to surrender and transformation. This > >> creative enactment expresses agency and is not coerced. It is an > >> ethical response. This "intention" to connect and the resulting > >> self-observation create what Jessical calls "moral thirdness", the > >> connection to a larger expansive connection beyond giver and given > >> to > that is felt as palpably "right". > >> In all Jessica's work she is distinguishing "surrender" from > "submission" > >> [including submitting to an "ideal" of "pure" empathy. which is a > >> denial of self and leads to complimentary doer and done to. > >> > >> For Jessica this moral third space is the space where > >> "self-regulation" and "co-regulation" meet. But that would require > further elaboration. > >> Larry > >> > >> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >> > >>> Larry, > >>> > >>> Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's > >>> distinction between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I > >>> suspect that both terms might trigger associations for many which > >>> might make them uncomfortable about using them in these ways). > >>> Your observations about possibility > >>> (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and common > >>> experience might contribute to the building of richer and more > >>> extensive possibilities among a community or a group of people who > >>> spend time together (especially 'down' time, when they are more > >>> relaxed and their social guards are down). It is easier and more > agreeable to 'surrender' > >>> into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social > >>> conversation > >> with > >>> no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to > >>> contribute to the co-construction of a third space which is shaped > >>> not so much by > >> the > >>> thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of > >>> interactions between them. This sort of surrendering into a group > >>> feels very different from submitting to the ordered, planned > >>> procedures of a 'getting things done' sort of meeting (though > >>> there is > room for overlap). > >>> > >>>> From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very > >>>> much like > >>> what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when > >>> baby and caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for the > >>> sake of > >> engaging > >>> with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the 'great we'). > >>> > >>> I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of our > >>> own and other selves moves in and out of this sort of third space. > >>> Vera captured some lovely aspects of this in her book 'Creative > >>> Collaboration' - how > >> the > >>> 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates the > >>> possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. > >>> > >>> All the best, > >>> > >>> Rod > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > >>> Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > >>> > >>> Rod, I concur with your interpretations. > >>> I would add to your comment: > >>> > >>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to > >>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help > >>> to remind > >> them > >>> that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what > >>> looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > >>> > >>> The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others > >>> expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's > >>> internalized "scripts". > >>> This is exploring "my" act and your return act. > >>> > >>> Third space notions ask or question if there are "intersubjective" > >>> ways > >> to > >>> enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal > >> "potential" > >>> places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not yet > >>> exist but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of "posse" > >>> [meaning can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a "transformation" > >>> through > >> activities > >>> [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared realm". > >>> > >>> This way of understanding is playing with notions of metaphorical > >>> and imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared > >>> potential spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third > >>> spaces of > >> "possibility" > >>> within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which > >>> things are not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, > >>> categorized, predictable, > >> and > >>> with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". > >>> > >>> What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of "intersubjective" > >>> mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. > >>> > >>> Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" > >>> to > >> "exist" > >>> in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other > >>> as > >> things > >>> or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced being > >>> reduced by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and > >>> collapses into complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or > >>> "doer > and done to" > >>> Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" and > >>> "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic "third" > >>> that which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" > >>> The third space must be enacted performed or take action but > >>> moving out from within this imaginal shared space. > >>> > >>> This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" > >>> becoming actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no absolute > >>> freedom fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint fundamentally. > >>> However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal > >>> symbolic shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This > >>> in no way means "submit" > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > >>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >>> > >>>> I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly > >>>> conscious of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been > explored. > >>>> > >>>> In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a > >>>> significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that > >>>> it should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking > >>>> example of what we all do every day when we make choices about > >>>> how we will represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of > >>>> clothes, how we do our hair, what we smell like, how we stand and > >>>> walk, how we greet people etc. all play off our knowledge of what > >>>> different choices are likely to be taken to mean (by different > >>>> groups of people). I think this links to what Larry (I think) was > >>>> saying about the concept-y-ness of the context-y environment in > >>>> which babies > play their way into meanings. > >>>> > >>>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to > >>>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might > >>>> help to remind them that things are not simple, categorised and > >>>> predictable - what looks at first like a frail old woman may turn > >>>> out > to be a person! > >>>> > >>>> I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised > >>>> cultural knowledge which informs our choices about how we will > >>>> present ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) > >>>> feeling of ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing > >>>> how we are 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. > >>>> When the rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy > >>>> to join in but when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we > >>>> need to watch from the periphery for a while before we presume to > >>>> know what we are > doing. > >>>> > >>>> All the best, > >>>> > >>>> Rod > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: > >>>> xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd. > >>>> edu > >>>> ] > >>>> On Behalf Of Larry Purss > >>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > >>>> > >>>> Mike, > >>>> You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and > >>>> social emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" > >>>> rhythmic modalities. > >>>> Thought and language and the figural within enactments > >>>> [performances] > >>>> > >>>> You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say > >>>> it is a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to > >>>> explore what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" > >>>> and cognitive enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in > >>>> setting > the "scene" > >>>> The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring > >>>> enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the > >>>> "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a > >>>> more > >>> metaphorical enactment. > >>>> Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or > >>>> is the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being > >>>> in the world as "possibility". > >>>> In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a > >>>> "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted > >>>> brings > >>> into "actuality" > >>>> the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a > >>>> possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person > >>>> and enacting this alternative possible "scene". > >>>> The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable > >>>> felt experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" > >>>> and becomes "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over > >>>> a cane was acting from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this "place" > >>>> internal or > >>> external? > >>>> or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet exist? > >>>> Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] > >>>> presence [both internal imagining and external performances] > >>>> there are always palpable felt experiences and every > >>>> "interpretation" is guided by these multi-modal ways of understanding. > >>>> > >>>> Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" > >>>> and "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and > >>>> palpable felt experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal > >>>> symbolic dimension as "potential" or "transitional" spaces > >>>> > >>>> The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third > >>>> spaces is there embodied presence and there witnessing quality > >>>> which is often marginalized or disowned when we privilege a > >>>> particular "type" of rationality and thinking. > >>>> > >>>> What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of > >>>> "third > >>> spaces" > >>>> is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is > >>>> included and who is excluded. > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot > >>>>> about what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness > >>>>> that I think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out > >>>>> if I am wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its interesting!). > >>>>> > >>>>> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of > >>>>> my wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in > >>>>> ill health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. > >>>>> Balance is an issue for her. > >>>>> > >>>>> When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed > >>>>> that she was carrying a large staff. > >>>>> I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! > >>>>> and gave her a big hug." > >>>>> > >>>>> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a > >>>>> cane, she lost the invisibility created by old age and she > >>>>> became a perons to others. People constantly started up > >>>>> conversations with her and, being a skilled conversationalist > >>>>> interested in people, it made her feel like a whole person. > >>>>> > >>>>> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or > >>>>> (?) a > >>> tool? > >>>>> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as > >> well. > >>>>> > >>>>> mike > >>>>> > >>>>> mike > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss > >>>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel, Rod, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the > >>>>>> other thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I > >>>>>> see these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that > >>>>>> contrast with > >>>> "twoness" > >>>>>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower > >>>>>> and > >>>>> learner, > >>>>>> etc.] > >>>>>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby > >>>>> watcher's I > >>>>>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one > >>>>>> stream in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan > >>>>>> privileges language in his notion of thirdness. There is also > >>>>>> the work of Stolorow Atwood, and Donna Orange, [intersubjective > >>>>>> psychodynamics] who do not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a > >>>>>> developmental achievement as bothDaniel Stern > >>>>> and > >>>>>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > >>>>>> In Jessica's words: > >>>>>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other > >>>>>> as growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized > >>>>>> by the other, as a crucial component of attachment responses > >>>>>> that require mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, > >>>>>> as ultimately a > >>>> pleasure and not a chore" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and > >>>>>> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. > >>>>>> My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and > >>>>>> rhythmicity] are felt to be > >>>>> in > >>>>>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when > >>>>>> there are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the > >>>>>> way to understanding > >>>>> we > >>>>>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our > >>>>>> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt > >>>> experience. > >>>>>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the > >>>>>> "struggle for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and "thirdness" > >>>>>> Her > >>>>> project > >>>>>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model > >>>>>> for expressing this struggle for recognition. > >>>>>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle > >>>>>> for recognition is through a developmental trajectory of > >>>>>> intersubjective development of thirdness. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through > >>>>>> privileging sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to come to "know" > >>>>>> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation > >>>>>> as this analytic kernel > >>>>> is > >>>>>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are > >>>>>> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by > >>>>>> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of "seeing" > >>>> [with the mind's eye?]. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a > >>>>>> father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it > >>>>>> gestures to another > >>>>> dimension, > >>>>>> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. > >>>>>> I > >>>>> would > >>>>>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can > >>>>>> offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied > >>>>>> hearing the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize > >>>>>> your notion of > >>>>> "intersecting" > >>>>>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" > >>>>>> [across > >>>>> verses] > >>>>>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms > >>>>>> of > >>>>> learning > >>>>>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y > >>>>>> ways of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of > >>>>>> concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the > >>>>>> children were able to join > >>>>> in > >>>>>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be > >>>>>> able to > >>>>> explain > >>>>>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" > >>>>>> or > >>>>> "context" > >>>>>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and > >>>>>> historically situated. > >>>>>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, > >>>>>> Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are > >>>>>> indicating is the > >>>>> centrality > >>>>>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also > >>>>>> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. > >>>>>> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this > >>>>>> does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, > >>>>>> and a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply > >>>>>> concept-y and > >>>>> institutionalized > >>>>>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we > >>>>>> ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > >>>>>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically > >>>>>> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" > >>>>>> AS potentially liberating contexts. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two > >>>>>> basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project > >>>>>> is to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in > >>>>>> understanding the notion > >>>>> of > >>>>>> "recognition". > >>>>>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer > >>>>>> and done > >>>>> to > >>>>>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable "witnessing" > >>>>> within > >>>>>> thirdness. > >>>>>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science > >>>>> as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > >>>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > >>>> > >>>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended > >>>> solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. 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From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Jan 20 12:06:35 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 12:06:35 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102293237@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> <001701d034b2$3b06d170$b1147450$@terra.com.br> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022930B3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102293237@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Rod I would say that Jessica would fully endorse this understanding of using internalized thirdness. as a "reflective" space. This is the aspect of thirdness that she refers to as the "symbolic third "[ a metaphorical space of ?s if""perceiving the world through a sociocultural filter. Your focussing on the centrality of "marking"I would suggest has been deeply explored by Fonagy and Gergley in there re-searching ""affect regulation. Whether others agree or question Jessica's notions of ?ntersubjective third space"[aspects of attunement, differentiation, and symbolic thirds] as a mediating environment, the focus on "marking" contrasted with matching or mirroring] is a profound insight and notions of "self-regulation" can be expanded by the understanding of affect regulation through asymmetrical "marking" On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > I have had to read hastily, Larry and I am not at all sure that I have > followed you and Jessica Benjamin through the psychoanalytical accounts of > intersubjectivity but I wanted to pick up on her point about the 'marking' > of the mother's response to a baby's distress (not simply mirroring this > back in the same form as it came from the baby). The mother/parent is > perhaps able to use an internalised thirdness to see the (future) > autonomous self in the actions of the baby, perceiving these through a > sociocultural filter and responding 'as if' the baby was already a (more > competent) social agent - or perhaps it is more that the parent responds as > if the interaction is already such as is had between enculturated agents - > moving into a third space into which the baby is also drawn. > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > Sent: 20 January 2015 15:41 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > Rod, > Yes, and the surrender she is exploring is of the intersubjective type > [subject subject complimentarity transformed. This is in contrast to > submission as a relation in which some "one" [person or "idea" is > "dominant" and privileged such a patriarchal father,] To sub-mit for > Jessica enacts some "one" is "over"-seeing. > > In her example of the walk with the two year old, if this walk becomes > "duty" through an act of self- assertion or self-regulation this duty > becomes some"thing" which the parent submits to and there is no longer a > sense of mutual intersubjective delight in surrendering to the "third" that > mutual potential space. > Jessica describes this tension between subjective complimentary twoness > [i.e. patriarchal father as over lord] and the who submits to the "one" > [person or ideal] AND intersubjective "thirdness" as a tension which will > never be dialectically resolved. Thirdness will always rupture and need > repair. Jessica's is a "moral" third and is a developmental "achievement". > It requires first having participated and been "held" or "witnessed" > within palpable felt experience which creates a thirdness of > intersubjective attunement. This is "accommodation". > > The mother's gestures must be "marked" to the rhythm of the babies moods > and affect as attunement to a rhythmic "dance". This is the context or ZPD > in which "differentiation" from fusion within "oneness" occurs. > > This intersubjective model recognizes that this type of developmental > "learning" must be co-created and requires the "symbolic" third which > explores as metaphorical enactments of (a)symmetry. The parent must act > from within "reflective" presence enacting the third by "morally" > surrendering to the rhythm or musical patterning using cultural historical > tools and understandings. > > I read Jessica as "seeing through" the historical constellation of two > independent subjectivie standpoints in relations of complimentarity and > one is "over" and the other "under" in relations of domination. > Submitting to a fundamental already known "one" is not intersubjective > asymmetrical enactments which call forth surrender of the person through > rhythmical attunements to the other as the "basis" for differentiation of > the two subjectivities through the moral reflections of the care giver. > > This model understands maturity as the care giver having her own > subjectivity and "twoness" and "thirdness" are never resolved or > transcended . They co-exist and the care giver must develop the capacity or > disposition for co-creating attuned, differentiated, and symbolic > thirdness. What Jessica is suggesting is this process collapses into > complimentary doer and done to without the recognition this is continually > co-created "MORAL" thirdness that intentionally resists either/or > enactments which demand patriarchical recognition and the other must in > duty submit > > The tension is never overcome and it is inevitable that thirdness will > collapse into twoness. This will be felt as a loss of thirdness and the > moral struggle is through reflection for the more mature one to > re-establish thirdness through recognition that the thirdness shifted > towards self-assertive twoness. It takes the commitment for the person in > the lead to recognize he/she returned to "twoness" and caused a rupture and > to sincerely communicate this "truth" to the other participant(s) so the > felt inevitable disregulation can be validated as a felt truth. > This acknowledge is capable of reopening this space of thirdness, this > metaphorical space of potentiality and possibility. > > This model is "intersubjective" not subjective Larry > > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 5:23 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > But Benjamin would argue that this is surrender (jointly giving up a > > focus on self in order to focus on a shared 'third' space of > > relationship) rather than submission (losing self in/to the > relationship). > > > > Bartels and Zeki (The neural correlates of maternal and romantic love, > > Neuroimage, 2004, 21, 1155-66) suggest that love is associated with a > > reduction of activity in parts of the brain associated with social > > evaluation - so love is, in some respects, blind and lovers (of their > > own babies or of romantic partners) may be more willing to surrender > > despite what others might see as flaws in the objects of their love! > > > > All the best, > > > > Rod > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Maria Judith Sucupira da > > Costa Lins > > Sent: 20 January 2015 13:09 > > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > > Subject: [Xmca-l] RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > > > Submission is presente also in true love. > > maria > > > > -----Mensagem original----- > > De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] Em nome de HENRY SHONERD Enviada em: > > segunda-feira, 19 de janeiro de 2015 22:39 > > Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > > > Larry, > > Do you think it?s sad-masochistic of me to suggest that we give > > submission a chance? Unanalyzed, ?submission?, not even a suggestion > > of a hyphen, as a juicy chunk, I think of Islam, or what I know of it > > through a hodge podge of media and friendships. But break it down, > > without even going to the dictionary, ?sub-mission? has the ring of > > commitment to a project. As a legal term, my dictionary has > > ?submission? as ?an agreement between parties involved in a dispute?. > > Here?s more from the semantic cluster: A synonym for ?submission? is > > ?yield?, from the Middle English. It?s worth mashing up latinate and > > germanic etymology and morphology to set up mnemonics for the > > discourse. So, when, if ever, is it good to ?submit?, ?give in?? I > > submit to the good will of la gente of this chat. There?s gotta be > > respect and trust. Among other things, that means it has to be > > voluntary and de buena voluntad. And transparent? Let me suggest a > > prototypical narr ative of > > submission: Motherhood. Giving birth and all of that jazz. Creativity > > with a capital ?C?. Here?s another: death. Everything in between is up > > for grabs I guess. Probably lots of diversity as they say in the game. > > Please, chatters, don?t feel the need to respond. I?ll take silence as > good sign. > > Like, you?re listening politely. > > Submissively > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > > > Rod, > > > In the spirit of your caution and acknowledging its truth value, I > > > want to say I was hesitant to use the term "surrender" for how it > > > would be misunderstood. In a similar way to the misunderstandings > > > of the term "mind". > > > > > > I will mention that Jessica is consciously using the word "surrender" > > > as NOT "submission" as she tries to articulate a nypothesis that > > > sees through "domination" and the struggle to the death of > > > complimentary > > "recognition" > > > I fully expect Jessica's work to instigate passionate responses. > > > Her work does develop from Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer, Fromm and > > > the Frankfurt school. > > > Jessica says we have conflated "surrender" with "submission" and > > > Jessica's use of the term "surrender" must be seen as being engaged > > > in exploring [and putting in play] notions of instrumental > > > internalized "self-regulation" AND notions of the "third space" as > > > coming into being through "surrender" to a place of potentiality and > > > possibility > > that is moving "beyond" > > > self-assertion as a complimentary struggle to the death. > > > > > > Rod, the play of "active" and "receptive" thirds [in contrast to > > > active and passive twoness] is the place which Jessica is inviting > > > us to > > occupy. > > > > > > Notions of "surrender" carry huge baggage and and will invite > > > palpable rejection as concepts. This is a fact. It is challenging > > > particular notions of "subjective" and "intersubjective" > > > However, if we begin within a dialogical awareness and acknowledge > > > that using a term such as "surrender" will be read by most and > > > rejected as implying "submission" and "domination" and "passivity" > > > and "loosing the self", then the process that you and I are engaged > > > in at this moment is the hermeneutical enactment of differentiating > > > and "marking" the distinctions the distinctions between "surrender" > > > and "submission" Jessica is asking us to pause and be reflective and > > consider this distinction. > > > > > > Rod, Jessica is working within a "tradition" [the Frankfurt School > > > where she is in dialogue with Hegel, Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer. > > > Her project is to "see through" the patterns of complimentary "twoness" > > > [doer and done to giver and given to]. The term "surrender" is being > > > used within this tradition. > > > > > > This term "surrender" [as exemplified in Stephen Mitchell's story of > > > letting go of his "idea" of "a walk" to enter his daughter's > > > enactment of "a walk" is central to Jessica's notion of > > > living-in-truth. Yes, it invites further dialogue and will be > > > misunderstood. It requires further dialogue. > > > > > > I could have tried to write an essay fully outlining the term > "surrender" > > > This word has sparked considerable response within the tradition of > > > feminism. I could also she it being challenged as Eurocentric or too > > > psychological [emphasizing both accommodation and differentiation]. > > > > > > Posting to the listserve and inviting commentary and further > > > questions on the term "surrender" is another approach. > > > > > > I also hoped to find a "bridge" to Kris' understanding of "third > > > space" and her exploration of intersubjective testimonio as hybrid > > > co-creative mutual rhythmic patterns forming within third spaces. I > > > see a quality of "surrender" [as Jessica uses the term] in Kris' > > > exploration of third spaces. > > > > > > Vygotsky explores internalized "self-regulation" as a developmental > task. > > > Jessica suggests the development of self regulation moves through > > > asymmetrical accommodation AND differentiation. For Jessica this > > > psychological development [if it is to form third spaces] requires > > > asymmetrical agentic active "surrender" as a way beyond a struggle > > > to the death of complimentary twoness. > > > In summary, I understand Jessica's work as an aspect of cultural > > > historical understanding, that includes social theory of emotions > > > and cognition and culture that is historical. > > > The term "surrender" is a discursive and dialogical form of enactment. > > > It was offered in the spirit of open ended dialogue but I was aware > > > and took a chance in using the word "surrender" Another word would > > > have been less controversial but I do question if being > > > misunderstood and then requiring further clarification is an approach > with some value. > > > > > > I do not intend the use of "surrender" as an alternative approach to > > > cultural historical theory. > > > The use of this term is meant in a spirit of dialogue and the "piety" > > > of questions inviting answers. > > > Rod, in the way I presented the term "surrender", I may have > > > elaborated further, and clarified more, but I was not sure if there > > > were others who shared an interest in this topic of complimentary > > > twoness and co-creative thirdness. I was interested in going deeper > > > into understanding "third spaces" and by posting was feeling my way > > > in by probing the level of interest. > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > > >> Larry, > > >> As I said, I like Benjamin's distinction between surrender and > > >> submission but I also think that it is not so simple to introduce > > >> new shadings of meaning to a word/concept which is already part of > > >> people's vocabulary. For most people, outside the group of those > > >> who know about Benjamin's work, surrender WILL still carry felt > > >> associations with unwillingly giving up ownership or control of > > >> something prized/valued. This is bound to result in > > >> miscommunication unless those who use surrender in its new sense > > >> signal and explain this use. I think an awareness of how we can > > >> expect others to react (body, mind and soul) is a core aspect of > > >> communication and ethical behaviour. We can't just occupy that > > >> third space and expect others to > > surrender to the meanings we want to introduce! > > >> > > >> Rod > > >> > > >> Sent from my Windows Phone > > >> ________________________________ > > >> From: Larry Purss > > >> Sent: 19/01/2015 01:29 > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > >> > > >> Miguel, > > >> The article I have been referencing is from Jessica Benjamin's > > >> article "Beyond Doer and Done To: An Intersubjective View of > > >> Thirdness" There is an extensive bibliography . Interestingly > > >> Jessica's dissertation was written in 1978 with the title, > > "Internalization and Instrumental Culture: > > >> A Reinterpretation of Psychoanalysis and Social Theory" > > >> Rod, > > >> Jessica references Colwyn Trevarthen as a source of her notion of > > >> "surrender". Yes, this word will make some uncomfortable, but this > > >> term must be seen as clearly differentiated from the notion of > > "submission" > > >> which Jessica believes are often conflated. I view "surrender" as > > >> Jessica uses the term as an "agentic" act that is ethical. It is an > > >> act [or enactment] which is felt as expansive, not as restrictive > > >> of > > "self" > > >> I am going to share a quote from Jessica's paper that she offered > > >> to differentiate the palpable difference between "surrender" and > > "submission". > > >> She is quoting Stephen Mitchell who is a key person in developing > > >> relational and hermeneutical psychoanalysis. > > >> Mitchell wrote: > > >> > > >> When my older daughter was about two or so, I remember my > > >> excitement at the prospect [LP-imaginal] of taking walks with her, > > >> given her new ambulatory skills and her intense interest in being > outdoors. > > >> However, I soon found these walks agonizingly slow. My idea of a > > >> walk entailed brisk movement along a road or path. Her idea was > > >> quite different. The implication of this difference hit me one day > > >> when we encountered a fallen tree on the side of the road.... > > >> The rest of the "walk" was spent exploring the fungal and insect > > >> life on, under, and around the tree. I remember my sudden > > >> realization that these walks would be no fun for me, merely a > > >> parental duty, if I held onto my idea of walks. As I was able to > > >> give that up and SURRENDER to my daughter's rhythm and focus, a > > >> different type of experience opened up to me..... If I had simply > > >> RESTRAINED myself out of duty, I would have experienced the walk as > > >> a compliance. But I was able to become my daughter's version of a > > >> good companion and to find in THAT another way for me to be that > > >> took on great personal meaning" [Benjamin, page 26] > > >> > > >> For Benjamin and Mitchell this quote expresses the principle of > > >> necessary asymmetry, by accommodating to the other as a way of > > "generating" > > >> thirdness. and within the "surrendering" the person is transformed, > > >> through opening up to mutual pleasure. > > >> > > >> Jessica is asking how we distinguish between the compliance of > "twoness" > > >> from the transformational learning of thirdness. For Jessica the > > >> answer is ethical, in the form of reflections on what will create > > >> intersubjective connection in our relationship, and through this > > >> reflection, opening up to surrender and transformation. This > > >> creative enactment expresses agency and is not coerced. It is an > > >> ethical response. This "intention" to connect and the resulting > > >> self-observation create what Jessical calls "moral thirdness", the > > >> connection to a larger expansive connection beyond giver and given > > >> to > > that is felt as palpably "right". > > >> In all Jessica's work she is distinguishing "surrender" from > > "submission" > > >> [including submitting to an "ideal" of "pure" empathy. which is a > > >> denial of self and leads to complimentary doer and done to. > > >> > > >> For Jessica this moral third space is the space where > > >> "self-regulation" and "co-regulation" meet. But that would require > > further elaboration. > > >> Larry > > >> > > >> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Larry, > > >>> > > >>> Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's > > >>> distinction between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I > > >>> suspect that both terms might trigger associations for many which > > >>> might make them uncomfortable about using them in these ways). > > >>> Your observations about possibility > > >>> (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and common > > >>> experience might contribute to the building of richer and more > > >>> extensive possibilities among a community or a group of people who > > >>> spend time together (especially 'down' time, when they are more > > >>> relaxed and their social guards are down). It is easier and more > > agreeable to 'surrender' > > >>> into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social > > >>> conversation > > >> with > > >>> no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to > > >>> contribute to the co-construction of a third space which is shaped > > >>> not so much by > > >> the > > >>> thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of > > >>> interactions between them. This sort of surrendering into a group > > >>> feels very different from submitting to the ordered, planned > > >>> procedures of a 'getting things done' sort of meeting (though > > >>> there is > > room for overlap). > > >>> > > >>>> From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very > > >>>> much like > > >>> what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when > > >>> baby and caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for the > > >>> sake of > > >> engaging > > >>> with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the 'great > we'). > > >>> > > >>> I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of our > > >>> own and other selves moves in and out of this sort of third space. > > >>> Vera captured some lovely aspects of this in her book 'Creative > > >>> Collaboration' - how > > >> the > > >>> 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates the > > >>> possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. > > >>> > > >>> All the best, > > >>> > > >>> Rod > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > > >>> Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 > > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > >>> > > >>> Rod, I concur with your interpretations. > > >>> I would add to your comment: > > >>> > > >>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to > > >>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help > > >>> to remind > > >> them > > >>> that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what > > >>> looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > > >>> > > >>> The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others > > >>> expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's > > >>> internalized "scripts". > > >>> This is exploring "my" act and your return act. > > >>> > > >>> Third space notions ask or question if there are "intersubjective" > > >>> ways > > >> to > > >>> enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal > > >> "potential" > > >>> places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not yet > > >>> exist but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of "posse" > > >>> [meaning can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a "transformation" > > >>> through > > >> activities > > >>> [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared realm". > > >>> > > >>> This way of understanding is playing with notions of metaphorical > > >>> and imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared > > >>> potential spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third > > >>> spaces of > > >> "possibility" > > >>> within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which > > >>> things are not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, > > >>> categorized, predictable, > > >> and > > >>> with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". > > >>> > > >>> What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of > "intersubjective" > > >>> mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. > > >>> > > >>> Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" > > >>> to > > >> "exist" > > >>> in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other > > >>> as > > >> things > > >>> or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced being > > >>> reduced by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and > > >>> collapses into complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or > > >>> "doer > > and done to" > > >>> Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" and > > >>> "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic "third" > > >>> that which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" > > >>> The third space must be enacted performed or take action but > > >>> moving out from within this imaginal shared space. > > >>> > > >>> This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" > > >>> becoming actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no absolute > > >>> freedom fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint fundamentally. > > >>> However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal > > >>> symbolic shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This > > >>> in no way means "submit" > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > >>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly > > >>>> conscious of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been > > explored. > > >>>> > > >>>> In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a > > >>>> significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that > > >>>> it should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking > > >>>> example of what we all do every day when we make choices about > > >>>> how we will represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of > > >>>> clothes, how we do our hair, what we smell like, how we stand and > > >>>> walk, how we greet people etc. all play off our knowledge of what > > >>>> different choices are likely to be taken to mean (by different > > >>>> groups of people). I think this links to what Larry (I think) was > > >>>> saying about the concept-y-ness of the context-y environment in > > >>>> which babies > > play their way into meanings. > > >>>> > > >>>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to > > >>>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might > > >>>> help to remind them that things are not simple, categorised and > > >>>> predictable - what looks at first like a frail old woman may turn > > >>>> out > > to be a person! > > >>>> > > >>>> I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised > > >>>> cultural knowledge which informs our choices about how we will > > >>>> present ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) > > >>>> feeling of ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing > > >>>> how we are 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. > > >>>> When the rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy > > >>>> to join in but when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we > > >>>> need to watch from the periphery for a while before we presume to > > >>>> know what we are > > doing. > > >>>> > > >>>> All the best, > > >>>> > > >>>> Rod > > >>>> > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>> From: > > >>>> xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd. > > >>>> edu > > >>>> ] > > >>>> On Behalf Of Larry Purss > > >>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 > > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > >>>> > > >>>> Mike, > > >>>> You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and > > >>>> social emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" > > >>>> rhythmic modalities. > > >>>> Thought and language and the figural within enactments > > >>>> [performances] > > >>>> > > >>>> You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say > > >>>> it is a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to > > >>>> explore what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" > > >>>> and cognitive enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in > > >>>> setting > > the "scene" > > >>>> The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring > > >>>> enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the > > >>>> "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a > > >>>> more > > >>> metaphorical enactment. > > >>>> Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or > > >>>> is the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being > > >>>> in the world as "possibility". > > >>>> In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a > > >>>> "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted > > >>>> brings > > >>> into "actuality" > > >>>> the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a > > >>>> possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person > > >>>> and enacting this alternative possible "scene". > > >>>> The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable > > >>>> felt experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" > > >>>> and becomes "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over > > >>>> a cane was acting from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this > "place" > > >>>> internal or > > >>> external? > > >>>> or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet > exist? > > >>>> Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] > > >>>> presence [both internal imagining and external performances] > > >>>> there are always palpable felt experiences and every > > >>>> "interpretation" is guided by these multi-modal ways of > understanding. > > >>>> > > >>>> Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" > > >>>> and "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and > > >>>> palpable felt experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal > > >>>> symbolic dimension as "potential" or "transitional" spaces > > >>>> > > >>>> The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third > > >>>> spaces is there embodied presence and there witnessing quality > > >>>> which is often marginalized or disowned when we privilege a > > >>>> particular "type" of rationality and thinking. > > >>>> > > >>>> What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of > > >>>> "third > > >>> spaces" > > >>>> is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is > > >>>> included and who is excluded. > > >>>> > > >>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot > > >>>>> about what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness > > >>>>> that I think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out > > >>>>> if I am wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its > interesting!). > > >>>>> > > >>>>> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of > > >>>>> my wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in > > >>>>> ill health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her years. > > >>>>> Balance is an issue for her. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed > > >>>>> that she was carrying a large staff. > > >>>>> I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! > > >>>>> and gave her a big hug." > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a > > >>>>> cane, she lost the invisibility created by old age and she > > >>>>> became a perons to others. People constantly started up > > >>>>> conversations with her and, being a skilled conversationalist > > >>>>> interested in people, it made her feel like a whole person. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or > > >>>>> (?) a > > >>> tool? > > >>>>> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as > > >> well. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> mike > > >>>>> > > >>>>> mike > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss > > >>>>> > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Miguel, Rod, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the > > >>>>>> other thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I > > >>>>>> see these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that > > >>>>>> contrast with > > >>>> "twoness" > > >>>>>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower > > >>>>>> and > > >>>>> learner, > > >>>>>> etc.] > > >>>>>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby > > >>>>> watcher's I > > >>>>>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one > > >>>>>> stream in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan > > >>>>>> privileges language in his notion of thirdness. There is also > > >>>>>> the work of Stolorow Atwood, and Donna Orange, [intersubjective > > >>>>>> psychodynamics] who do not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a > > >>>>>> developmental achievement as bothDaniel Stern > > >>>>> and > > >>>>>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > > >>>>>> In Jessica's words: > > >>>>>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other > > >>>>>> as growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized > > >>>>>> by the other, as a crucial component of attachment responses > > >>>>>> that require mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, > > >>>>>> as ultimately a > > >>>> pleasure and not a chore" > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and > > >>>>>> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. > > >>>>>> My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and > > >>>>>> rhythmicity] are felt to be > > >>>>> in > > >>>>>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when > > >>>>>> there are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the > > >>>>>> way to understanding > > >>>>> we > > >>>>>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our > > >>>>>> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt > > >>>> experience. > > >>>>>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the > > >>>>>> "struggle for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" and > "thirdness" > > >>>>>> Her > > >>>>> project > > >>>>>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model > > >>>>>> for expressing this struggle for recognition. > > >>>>>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle > > >>>>>> for recognition is through a developmental trajectory of > > >>>>>> intersubjective development of thirdness. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through > > >>>>>> privileging sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to > come to "know" > > >>>>>> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation > > >>>>>> as this analytic kernel > > >>>>> is > > >>>>>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are > > >>>>>> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by > > >>>>>> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of > "seeing" > > >>>> [with the mind's eye?]. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a > > >>>>>> father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it > > >>>>>> gestures to another > > >>>>> dimension, > > >>>>>> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. > > >>>>>> I > > >>>>> would > > >>>>>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can > > >>>>>> offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied > > >>>>>> hearing the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize > > >>>>>> your notion of > > >>>>> "intersecting" > > >>>>>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" > > >>>>>> [across > > >>>>> verses] > > >>>>>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms > > >>>>>> of > > >>>>> learning > > >>>>>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y > > >>>>>> ways of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of > > >>>>>> concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the > > >>>>>> children were able to join > > >>>>> in > > >>>>>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be > > >>>>>> able to > > >>>>> explain > > >>>>>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" > > >>>>>> or > > >>>>> "context" > > >>>>>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and > > >>>>>> historically situated. > > >>>>>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, > > >>>>>> Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are > > >>>>>> indicating is the > > >>>>> centrality > > >>>>>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also > > >>>>>> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and worlds. > > >>>>>> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this > > >>>>>> does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, > > >>>>>> and a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply > > >>>>>> concept-y and > > >>>>> institutionalized > > >>>>>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we > > >>>>>> ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > > >>>>>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically > > >>>>>> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third spaces" > > >>>>>> AS potentially liberating contexts. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two > > >>>>>> basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project > > >>>>>> is to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in > > >>>>>> understanding the notion > > >>>>> of > > >>>>>> "recognition". > > >>>>>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer > > >>>>>> and done > > >>>>> to > > >>>>>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable > "witnessing" > > >>>>> within > > >>>>>> thirdness. > > >>>>>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> -- > > >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science > > >>>>> as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > >>>>> > > >>>> ________________________________ > > >>>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > >>>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > >>>> > > >>>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended > > >>>> solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If > > >>>> you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or > > >>>> other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and > > >>>> you should not rely on > > >>> it. > > >>>> If you have received this email in error please let the sender > > >>>> know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet > > >>>> emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, > > >>>> Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it > > >>>> is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. > > >>>> Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any > > >>>> changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > > >>>> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless > > >>>> accompanied by an > > official order form. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> ________________________________ > > >>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > >>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > >>> > > >>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended > > >>> solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If > > >>> you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or > > >>> other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and > > >>> you should not rely on > > >> it. > > >>> If you have received this email in error please let the sender > > >>> know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet > > >>> emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, > > >>> Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it > > >>> is your responsibility to scan > > >> emails > > >>> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > > >>> responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in > > >>> this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or > > >>> services unless accompanied by an official order form. > > >>> > > >>> > > >> ________________________________ > > >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > >> > > >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended > > >> solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you > > >> are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other > > >> use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you > > >> should not rely on > > it. > > >> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > >> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are > > >> not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth > > >> University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your > > >> responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth > > >> University does not accept responsibility for any changes made > > >> after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments > > >> constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an > official order form. > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > --- > > Este email foi escaneado pelo Avast antiv?rus. > > http://www.avast.com > > > > > > ________________________________ > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not > > the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > it. > > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > > accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to > > scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > > responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this > > email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services > > unless accompanied by an official order form. > > > > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jan 20 20:55:45 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 04:55:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Haiti by the numbers, five years after In-Reply-To: <1661206536.4146681.1421753832734.JavaMail.yahoo@jws11171.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1421370143297.34782@unm.edu>, <1661206536.4146681.1421753832734.JavaMail.yahoo@jws11171.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1421816145956.88397@unm.edu> Hi Haydi, It is true that even the days of the Inquisition was not a time of picking strawberries, however what feels more of an insult today is the saying that we are more evolved and enlightened with our lamps when we are actually quite in the dark over what it is like to be oppressed today, if only because those who suffer don't have a voice. If they do, few with influence listen, and even less do anything about it. Poverty is a form of violence which robs the dignity out of any one person. Then to have to submit to rules one doesn't want and to sanction them in order to eat, is yet another form of violence. There may be no blood spilled, but these "bruises" are deeply hurtful. I'm sure these power dynamics are nothing novel in history, and yet the pain is always novel because the pain is always experienced in the present moment. Regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Jan 20 21:03:02 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 21:03:02 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> <001701d034b2$3b06d170$b1147450$@terra.com.br> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022930B3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102293237@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Rod, Another aspect of the notion of asymmetrical "marking" as understood within reflective internalized thirdness is the way it can be understood by clarifying how Jessica understands the notion of "equality". Jessica writes: "Symmetry is a crucial part of what unites the pair in complimentarity, the takes-one-to-know-one recognition feature of the doer/done to relation .... In effect, it builds on the deep structure of mirroring and affective matching that operates [largely procedurally and out of awareness] in any dyad, when both partners glare at each other or interrupt in unison. In such interactions, we can see the underlying symmetry that characterizes the apparent opposition of power relations: each feels unable to gain the other's recognition, and each feels in the other's power. In other words, the asymmetrical notion of "marking" which facilitates "third space" requires in Jessica's understanding reflective "surrender" as facilitated by an internal symbolic cultural historical "third space". This space is an imaginal metaphorical "as if" space of possible and potential "enactments" and "witnessing". However underlying this symbolic space is the necessity of rhythmic attunement [accommodation] AND asymmetrical marking [differentiation]. Jessica's understanding of the development of creative "freedom" expresses a distinctive sociality of freedom that involves one subject facilitating the freedom of another through witnessing and hearing the other into voice. However I am suggesting by acting this way [surrendering to the third space] that this is an agentic act, not passive but active. Surrender as Jessica understands the term is a possible answer to relations of domination. A generative as well as generous way of facilitating the development of intersubjective sociality. I was intrigued when I read Peg's response discussing appropriation and misappropriation: Peg wrote" "Here, the old lady uses her "mis-appropriation" within an act of transformation. With children, teachers or parents or other elders, may mis-appropriate children's play -- having children trot or canter or gallup into the classroom as a way to engage them in a transition between space or activity. What's different? Well I'm teasing myself with the notion of "second order" -- for the old lady there's extra consciousness and that "extra" bit is acted by the adult in the case of the children." Peg's reflection on second order "extra" consciousness. THAT "extra bit" that is acted by the adult may overlap with Jessica's notion of the "symbolic metaphorical space of thirdness from within which one acts. What's different" I return to Miguel's comment questioning if there are subject-object performances which are distinct from intersubjective subject-subject enactments. On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Rod > I would say that Jessica would fully endorse this understanding of using > internalized thirdness. as a "reflective" space. This is the aspect of > thirdness that she refers to as the "symbolic third "[ a metaphorical space > of ?s if""perceiving the world through a sociocultural filter. > Your focussing on the centrality of "marking"I would suggest has been > deeply explored by Fonagy and Gergley in there re-searching ""affect > regulation. > Whether others agree or question Jessica's notions of ?ntersubjective > third space"[aspects of attunement, differentiation, and symbolic thirds] > as a mediating environment, the focus on "marking" contrasted with matching > or mirroring] is a profound insight and notions of "self-regulation" can be > expanded by the understanding of affect regulation through asymmetrical > "marking" > > > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >> I have had to read hastily, Larry and I am not at all sure that I have >> followed you and Jessica Benjamin through the psychoanalytical accounts of >> intersubjectivity but I wanted to pick up on her point about the 'marking' >> of the mother's response to a baby's distress (not simply mirroring this >> back in the same form as it came from the baby). The mother/parent is >> perhaps able to use an internalised thirdness to see the (future) >> autonomous self in the actions of the baby, perceiving these through a >> sociocultural filter and responding 'as if' the baby was already a (more >> competent) social agent - or perhaps it is more that the parent responds as >> if the interaction is already such as is had between enculturated agents - >> moving into a third space into which the baby is also drawn. >> >> Rod >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss >> Sent: 20 January 2015 15:41 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions >> >> Rod, >> Yes, and the surrender she is exploring is of the intersubjective type >> [subject subject complimentarity transformed. This is in contrast to >> submission as a relation in which some "one" [person or "idea" is >> "dominant" and privileged such a patriarchal father,] To sub-mit for >> Jessica enacts some "one" is "over"-seeing. >> >> In her example of the walk with the two year old, if this walk becomes >> "duty" through an act of self- assertion or self-regulation this duty >> becomes some"thing" which the parent submits to and there is no longer a >> sense of mutual intersubjective delight in surrendering to the "third" that >> mutual potential space. >> Jessica describes this tension between subjective complimentary twoness >> [i.e. patriarchal father as over lord] and the who submits to the "one" >> [person or ideal] AND intersubjective "thirdness" as a tension which will >> never be dialectically resolved. Thirdness will always rupture and need >> repair. Jessica's is a "moral" third and is a developmental "achievement". >> It requires first having participated and been "held" or "witnessed" >> within palpable felt experience which creates a thirdness of >> intersubjective attunement. This is "accommodation". >> >> The mother's gestures must be "marked" to the rhythm of the babies moods >> and affect as attunement to a rhythmic "dance". This is the context or ZPD >> in which "differentiation" from fusion within "oneness" occurs. >> >> This intersubjective model recognizes that this type of developmental >> "learning" must be co-created and requires the "symbolic" third which >> explores as metaphorical enactments of (a)symmetry. The parent must act >> from within "reflective" presence enacting the third by "morally" >> surrendering to the rhythm or musical patterning using cultural >> historical tools and understandings. >> >> I read Jessica as "seeing through" the historical constellation of two >> independent subjectivie standpoints in relations of complimentarity and >> one is "over" and the other "under" in relations of domination. >> Submitting to a fundamental already known "one" is not intersubjective >> asymmetrical enactments which call forth surrender of the person through >> rhythmical attunements to the other as the "basis" for differentiation of >> the two subjectivities through the moral reflections of the care giver. >> >> This model understands maturity as the care giver having her own >> subjectivity and "twoness" and "thirdness" are never resolved or >> transcended . They co-exist and the care giver must develop the capacity or >> disposition for co-creating attuned, differentiated, and symbolic >> thirdness. What Jessica is suggesting is this process collapses into >> complimentary doer and done to without the recognition this is continually >> co-created "MORAL" thirdness that intentionally resists either/or >> enactments which demand patriarchical recognition and the other must in >> duty submit >> >> The tension is never overcome and it is inevitable that thirdness will >> collapse into twoness. This will be felt as a loss of thirdness and the >> moral struggle is through reflection for the more mature one to >> re-establish thirdness through recognition that the thirdness shifted >> towards self-assertive twoness. It takes the commitment for the person in >> the lead to recognize he/she returned to "twoness" and caused a rupture and >> to sincerely communicate this "truth" to the other participant(s) so the >> felt inevitable disregulation can be validated as a felt truth. >> This acknowledge is capable of reopening this space of thirdness, this >> metaphorical space of potentiality and possibility. >> >> This model is "intersubjective" not subjective Larry >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 5:23 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >> >> > But Benjamin would argue that this is surrender (jointly giving up a >> > focus on self in order to focus on a shared 'third' space of >> > relationship) rather than submission (losing self in/to the >> relationship). >> > >> > Bartels and Zeki (The neural correlates of maternal and romantic love, >> > Neuroimage, 2004, 21, 1155-66) suggest that love is associated with a >> > reduction of activity in parts of the brain associated with social >> > evaluation - so love is, in some respects, blind and lovers (of their >> > own babies or of romantic partners) may be more willing to surrender >> > despite what others might see as flaws in the objects of their love! >> > >> > All the best, >> > >> > Rod >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Maria Judith Sucupira da >> > Costa Lins >> > Sent: 20 January 2015 13:09 >> > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions >> > >> > Submission is presente also in true love. >> > maria >> > >> > -----Mensagem original----- >> > De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] Em nome de HENRY SHONERD Enviada em: >> > segunda-feira, 19 de janeiro de 2015 22:39 >> > Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >> > >> > Larry, >> > Do you think it?s sad-masochistic of me to suggest that we give >> > submission a chance? Unanalyzed, ?submission?, not even a suggestion >> > of a hyphen, as a juicy chunk, I think of Islam, or what I know of it >> > through a hodge podge of media and friendships. But break it down, >> > without even going to the dictionary, ?sub-mission? has the ring of >> > commitment to a project. As a legal term, my dictionary has >> > ?submission? as ?an agreement between parties involved in a dispute?. >> > Here?s more from the semantic cluster: A synonym for ?submission? is >> > ?yield?, from the Middle English. It?s worth mashing up latinate and >> > germanic etymology and morphology to set up mnemonics for the >> > discourse. So, when, if ever, is it good to ?submit?, ?give in?? I >> > submit to the good will of la gente of this chat. There?s gotta be >> > respect and trust. Among other things, that means it has to be >> > voluntary and de buena voluntad. And transparent? Let me suggest a >> > prototypical narr ative of >> > submission: Motherhood. Giving birth and all of that jazz. Creativity >> > with a capital ?C?. Here?s another: death. Everything in between is up >> > for grabs I guess. Probably lots of diversity as they say in the game. >> > Please, chatters, don?t feel the need to respond. I?ll take silence as >> good sign. >> > Like, you?re listening politely. >> > Submissively >> > Henry >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > On Jan 19, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Larry Purss >> wrote: >> > > >> > > Rod, >> > > In the spirit of your caution and acknowledging its truth value, I >> > > want to say I was hesitant to use the term "surrender" for how it >> > > would be misunderstood. In a similar way to the misunderstandings >> > > of the term "mind". >> > > >> > > I will mention that Jessica is consciously using the word "surrender" >> > > as NOT "submission" as she tries to articulate a nypothesis that >> > > sees through "domination" and the struggle to the death of >> > > complimentary >> > "recognition" >> > > I fully expect Jessica's work to instigate passionate responses. >> > > Her work does develop from Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer, Fromm and >> > > the Frankfurt school. >> > > Jessica says we have conflated "surrender" with "submission" and >> > > Jessica's use of the term "surrender" must be seen as being engaged >> > > in exploring [and putting in play] notions of instrumental >> > > internalized "self-regulation" AND notions of the "third space" as >> > > coming into being through "surrender" to a place of potentiality and >> > > possibility >> > that is moving "beyond" >> > > self-assertion as a complimentary struggle to the death. >> > > >> > > Rod, the play of "active" and "receptive" thirds [in contrast to >> > > active and passive twoness] is the place which Jessica is inviting >> > > us to >> > occupy. >> > > >> > > Notions of "surrender" carry huge baggage and and will invite >> > > palpable rejection as concepts. This is a fact. It is challenging >> > > particular notions of "subjective" and "intersubjective" >> > > However, if we begin within a dialogical awareness and acknowledge >> > > that using a term such as "surrender" will be read by most and >> > > rejected as implying "submission" and "domination" and "passivity" >> > > and "loosing the self", then the process that you and I are engaged >> > > in at this moment is the hermeneutical enactment of differentiating >> > > and "marking" the distinctions the distinctions between "surrender" >> > > and "submission" Jessica is asking us to pause and be reflective and >> > consider this distinction. >> > > >> > > Rod, Jessica is working within a "tradition" [the Frankfurt School >> > > where she is in dialogue with Hegel, Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer. >> > > Her project is to "see through" the patterns of complimentary >> "twoness" >> > > [doer and done to giver and given to]. The term "surrender" is being >> > > used within this tradition. >> > > >> > > This term "surrender" [as exemplified in Stephen Mitchell's story of >> > > letting go of his "idea" of "a walk" to enter his daughter's >> > > enactment of "a walk" is central to Jessica's notion of >> > > living-in-truth. Yes, it invites further dialogue and will be >> > > misunderstood. It requires further dialogue. >> > > >> > > I could have tried to write an essay fully outlining the term >> "surrender" >> > > This word has sparked considerable response within the tradition of >> > > feminism. I could also she it being challenged as Eurocentric or too >> > > psychological [emphasizing both accommodation and differentiation]. >> > > >> > > Posting to the listserve and inviting commentary and further >> > > questions on the term "surrender" is another approach. >> > > >> > > I also hoped to find a "bridge" to Kris' understanding of "third >> > > space" and her exploration of intersubjective testimonio as hybrid >> > > co-creative mutual rhythmic patterns forming within third spaces. I >> > > see a quality of "surrender" [as Jessica uses the term] in Kris' >> > > exploration of third spaces. >> > > >> > > Vygotsky explores internalized "self-regulation" as a developmental >> task. >> > > Jessica suggests the development of self regulation moves through >> > > asymmetrical accommodation AND differentiation. For Jessica this >> > > psychological development [if it is to form third spaces] requires >> > > asymmetrical agentic active "surrender" as a way beyond a struggle >> > > to the death of complimentary twoness. >> > > In summary, I understand Jessica's work as an aspect of cultural >> > > historical understanding, that includes social theory of emotions >> > > and cognition and culture that is historical. >> > > The term "surrender" is a discursive and dialogical form of enactment. >> > > It was offered in the spirit of open ended dialogue but I was aware >> > > and took a chance in using the word "surrender" Another word would >> > > have been less controversial but I do question if being >> > > misunderstood and then requiring further clarification is an >> approach with some value. >> > > >> > > I do not intend the use of "surrender" as an alternative approach to >> > > cultural historical theory. >> > > The use of this term is meant in a spirit of dialogue and the "piety" >> > > of questions inviting answers. >> > > Rod, in the way I presented the term "surrender", I may have >> > > elaborated further, and clarified more, but I was not sure if there >> > > were others who shared an interest in this topic of complimentary >> > > twoness and co-creative thirdness. I was interested in going deeper >> > > into understanding "third spaces" and by posting was feeling my way >> > > in by probing the level of interest. >> > > >> > > Larry >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < >> > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >> > > >> > >> Larry, >> > >> As I said, I like Benjamin's distinction between surrender and >> > >> submission but I also think that it is not so simple to introduce >> > >> new shadings of meaning to a word/concept which is already part of >> > >> people's vocabulary. For most people, outside the group of those >> > >> who know about Benjamin's work, surrender WILL still carry felt >> > >> associations with unwillingly giving up ownership or control of >> > >> something prized/valued. This is bound to result in >> > >> miscommunication unless those who use surrender in its new sense >> > >> signal and explain this use. I think an awareness of how we can >> > >> expect others to react (body, mind and soul) is a core aspect of >> > >> communication and ethical behaviour. We can't just occupy that >> > >> third space and expect others to >> > surrender to the meanings we want to introduce! >> > >> >> > >> Rod >> > >> >> > >> Sent from my Windows Phone >> > >> ________________________________ >> > >> From: Larry Purss >> > >> Sent: 19/01/2015 01:29 >> > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >> > >> >> > >> Miguel, >> > >> The article I have been referencing is from Jessica Benjamin's >> > >> article "Beyond Doer and Done To: An Intersubjective View of >> > >> Thirdness" There is an extensive bibliography . Interestingly >> > >> Jessica's dissertation was written in 1978 with the title, >> > "Internalization and Instrumental Culture: >> > >> A Reinterpretation of Psychoanalysis and Social Theory" >> > >> Rod, >> > >> Jessica references Colwyn Trevarthen as a source of her notion of >> > >> "surrender". Yes, this word will make some uncomfortable, but this >> > >> term must be seen as clearly differentiated from the notion of >> > "submission" >> > >> which Jessica believes are often conflated. I view "surrender" as >> > >> Jessica uses the term as an "agentic" act that is ethical. It is an >> > >> act [or enactment] which is felt as expansive, not as restrictive >> > >> of >> > "self" >> > >> I am going to share a quote from Jessica's paper that she offered >> > >> to differentiate the palpable difference between "surrender" and >> > "submission". >> > >> She is quoting Stephen Mitchell who is a key person in developing >> > >> relational and hermeneutical psychoanalysis. >> > >> Mitchell wrote: >> > >> >> > >> When my older daughter was about two or so, I remember my >> > >> excitement at the prospect [LP-imaginal] of taking walks with her, >> > >> given her new ambulatory skills and her intense interest in being >> outdoors. >> > >> However, I soon found these walks agonizingly slow. My idea of a >> > >> walk entailed brisk movement along a road or path. Her idea was >> > >> quite different. The implication of this difference hit me one day >> > >> when we encountered a fallen tree on the side of the road.... >> > >> The rest of the "walk" was spent exploring the fungal and insect >> > >> life on, under, and around the tree. I remember my sudden >> > >> realization that these walks would be no fun for me, merely a >> > >> parental duty, if I held onto my idea of walks. As I was able to >> > >> give that up and SURRENDER to my daughter's rhythm and focus, a >> > >> different type of experience opened up to me..... If I had simply >> > >> RESTRAINED myself out of duty, I would have experienced the walk as >> > >> a compliance. But I was able to become my daughter's version of a >> > >> good companion and to find in THAT another way for me to be that >> > >> took on great personal meaning" [Benjamin, page 26] >> > >> >> > >> For Benjamin and Mitchell this quote expresses the principle of >> > >> necessary asymmetry, by accommodating to the other as a way of >> > "generating" >> > >> thirdness. and within the "surrendering" the person is transformed, >> > >> through opening up to mutual pleasure. >> > >> >> > >> Jessica is asking how we distinguish between the compliance of >> "twoness" >> > >> from the transformational learning of thirdness. For Jessica the >> > >> answer is ethical, in the form of reflections on what will create >> > >> intersubjective connection in our relationship, and through this >> > >> reflection, opening up to surrender and transformation. This >> > >> creative enactment expresses agency and is not coerced. It is an >> > >> ethical response. This "intention" to connect and the resulting >> > >> self-observation create what Jessical calls "moral thirdness", the >> > >> connection to a larger expansive connection beyond giver and given >> > >> to >> > that is felt as palpably "right". >> > >> In all Jessica's work she is distinguishing "surrender" from >> > "submission" >> > >> [including submitting to an "ideal" of "pure" empathy. which is a >> > >> denial of self and leads to complimentary doer and done to. >> > >> >> > >> For Jessica this moral third space is the space where >> > >> "self-regulation" and "co-regulation" meet. But that would require >> > further elaboration. >> > >> Larry >> > >> >> > >> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < >> > >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >> > >> >> > >>> Larry, >> > >>> >> > >>> Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's >> > >>> distinction between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I >> > >>> suspect that both terms might trigger associations for many which >> > >>> might make them uncomfortable about using them in these ways). >> > >>> Your observations about possibility >> > >>> (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and common >> > >>> experience might contribute to the building of richer and more >> > >>> extensive possibilities among a community or a group of people who >> > >>> spend time together (especially 'down' time, when they are more >> > >>> relaxed and their social guards are down). It is easier and more >> > agreeable to 'surrender' >> > >>> into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social >> > >>> conversation >> > >> with >> > >>> no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to >> > >>> contribute to the co-construction of a third space which is shaped >> > >>> not so much by >> > >> the >> > >>> thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of >> > >>> interactions between them. This sort of surrendering into a group >> > >>> feels very different from submitting to the ordered, planned >> > >>> procedures of a 'getting things done' sort of meeting (though >> > >>> there is >> > room for overlap). >> > >>> >> > >>>> From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very >> > >>>> much like >> > >>> what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when >> > >>> baby and caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for the >> > >>> sake of >> > >> engaging >> > >>> with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the 'great >> we'). >> > >>> >> > >>> I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of our >> > >>> own and other selves moves in and out of this sort of third space. >> > >>> Vera captured some lovely aspects of this in her book 'Creative >> > >>> Collaboration' - how >> > >> the >> > >>> 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates the >> > >>> possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. >> > >>> >> > >>> All the best, >> > >>> >> > >>> Rod >> > >>> >> > >>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss >> > >>> Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 >> > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >> > >>> >> > >>> Rod, I concur with your interpretations. >> > >>> I would add to your comment: >> > >>> >> > >>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to >> > >>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help >> > >>> to remind >> > >> them >> > >>> that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what >> > >>> looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! >> > >>> >> > >>> The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others >> > >>> expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's >> > >>> internalized "scripts". >> > >>> This is exploring "my" act and your return act. >> > >>> >> > >>> Third space notions ask or question if there are "intersubjective" >> > >>> ways >> > >> to >> > >>> enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal >> > >> "potential" >> > >>> places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not yet >> > >>> exist but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of "posse" >> > >>> [meaning can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a "transformation" >> > >>> through >> > >> activities >> > >>> [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared realm". >> > >>> >> > >>> This way of understanding is playing with notions of metaphorical >> > >>> and imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared >> > >>> potential spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third >> > >>> spaces of >> > >> "possibility" >> > >>> within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which >> > >>> things are not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, >> > >>> categorized, predictable, >> > >> and >> > >>> with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". >> > >>> >> > >>> What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of >> "intersubjective" >> > >>> mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. >> > >>> >> > >>> Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" >> > >>> to >> > >> "exist" >> > >>> in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other >> > >>> as >> > >> things >> > >>> or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced being >> > >>> reduced by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and >> > >>> collapses into complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or >> > >>> "doer >> > and done to" >> > >>> Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" and >> > >>> "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic "third" >> > >>> that which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" >> > >>> The third space must be enacted performed or take action but >> > >>> moving out from within this imaginal shared space. >> > >>> >> > >>> This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" >> > >>> becoming actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no absolute >> > >>> freedom fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint >> fundamentally. >> > >>> However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal >> > >>> symbolic shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This >> > >>> in no way means "submit" >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < >> > >>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>>> I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly >> > >>>> conscious of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been >> > explored. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a >> > >>>> significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that >> > >>>> it should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking >> > >>>> example of what we all do every day when we make choices about >> > >>>> how we will represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of >> > >>>> clothes, how we do our hair, what we smell like, how we stand and >> > >>>> walk, how we greet people etc. all play off our knowledge of what >> > >>>> different choices are likely to be taken to mean (by different >> > >>>> groups of people). I think this links to what Larry (I think) was >> > >>>> saying about the concept-y-ness of the context-y environment in >> > >>>> which babies >> > play their way into meanings. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to >> > >>>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might >> > >>>> help to remind them that things are not simple, categorised and >> > >>>> predictable - what looks at first like a frail old woman may turn >> > >>>> out >> > to be a person! >> > >>>> >> > >>>> I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised >> > >>>> cultural knowledge which informs our choices about how we will >> > >>>> present ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) >> > >>>> feeling of ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing >> > >>>> how we are 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. >> > >>>> When the rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy >> > >>>> to join in but when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we >> > >>>> need to watch from the periphery for a while before we presume to >> > >>>> know what we are >> > doing. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> All the best, >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Rod >> > >>>> >> > >>>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>>> From: >> > >>>> xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu >> > >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees >> =plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd. >> > >>>> edu >> > >>>> ] >> > >>>> On Behalf Of Larry Purss >> > >>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 >> > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Mike, >> > >>>> You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and >> > >>>> social emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" >> > >>>> rhythmic modalities. >> > >>>> Thought and language and the figural within enactments >> > >>>> [performances] >> > >>>> >> > >>>> You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say >> > >>>> it is a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to >> > >>>> explore what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" >> > >>>> and cognitive enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in >> > >>>> setting >> > the "scene" >> > >>>> The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring >> > >>>> enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the >> > >>>> "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a >> > >>>> more >> > >>> metaphorical enactment. >> > >>>> Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or >> > >>>> is the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being >> > >>>> in the world as "possibility". >> > >>>> In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a >> > >>>> "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted >> > >>>> brings >> > >>> into "actuality" >> > >>>> the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a >> > >>>> possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person >> > >>>> and enacting this alternative possible "scene". >> > >>>> The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable >> > >>>> felt experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" >> > >>>> and becomes "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over >> > >>>> a cane was acting from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this >> "place" >> > >>>> internal or >> > >>> external? >> > >>>> or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet >> exist? >> > >>>> Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] >> > >>>> presence [both internal imagining and external performances] >> > >>>> there are always palpable felt experiences and every >> > >>>> "interpretation" is guided by these multi-modal ways of >> understanding. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" >> > >>>> and "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and >> > >>>> palpable felt experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal >> > >>>> symbolic dimension as "potential" or "transitional" spaces >> > >>>> >> > >>>> The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third >> > >>>> spaces is there embodied presence and there witnessing quality >> > >>>> which is often marginalized or disowned when we privilege a >> > >>>> particular "type" of rationality and thinking. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of >> > >>>> "third >> > >>> spaces" >> > >>>> is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is >> > >>>> included and who is excluded. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot >> > >>>>> about what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness >> > >>>>> that I think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out >> > >>>>> if I am wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its >> interesting!). >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of >> > >>>>> my wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in >> > >>>>> ill health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her >> years. >> > >>>>> Balance is an issue for her. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed >> > >>>>> that she was carrying a large staff. >> > >>>>> I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! >> > >>>>> and gave her a big hug." >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a >> > >>>>> cane, she lost the invisibility created by old age and she >> > >>>>> became a perons to others. People constantly started up >> > >>>>> conversations with her and, being a skilled conversationalist >> > >>>>> interested in people, it made her feel like a whole person. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or >> > >>>>> (?) a >> > >>> tool? >> > >>>>> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as >> > >> well. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> mike >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> mike >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss >> > >>>>> >> > >>>> wrote: >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>> Miguel, Rod, >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the >> > >>>>>> other thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I >> > >>>>>> see these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that >> > >>>>>> contrast with >> > >>>> "twoness" >> > >>>>>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower >> > >>>>>> and >> > >>>>> learner, >> > >>>>>> etc.] >> > >>>>>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby >> > >>>>> watcher's I >> > >>>>>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one >> > >>>>>> stream in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan >> > >>>>>> privileges language in his notion of thirdness. There is also >> > >>>>>> the work of Stolorow Atwood, and Donna Orange, [intersubjective >> > >>>>>> psychodynamics] who do not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a >> > >>>>>> developmental achievement as bothDaniel Stern >> > >>>>> and >> > >>>>>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. >> > >>>>>> In Jessica's words: >> > >>>>>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other >> > >>>>>> as growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized >> > >>>>>> by the other, as a crucial component of attachment responses >> > >>>>>> that require mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, >> > >>>>>> as ultimately a >> > >>>> pleasure and not a chore" >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and >> > >>>>>> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. >> > >>>>>> My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and >> > >>>>>> rhythmicity] are felt to be >> > >>>>> in >> > >>>>>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when >> > >>>>>> there are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the >> > >>>>>> way to understanding >> > >>>>> we >> > >>>>>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our >> > >>>>>> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt >> > >>>> experience. >> > >>>>>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the >> > >>>>>> "struggle for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" >> and "thirdness" >> > >>>>>> Her >> > >>>>> project >> > >>>>>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model >> > >>>>>> for expressing this struggle for recognition. >> > >>>>>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle >> > >>>>>> for recognition is through a developmental trajectory of >> > >>>>>> intersubjective development of thirdness. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through >> > >>>>>> privileging sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to >> come to "know" >> > >>>>>> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation >> > >>>>>> as this analytic kernel >> > >>>>> is >> > >>>>>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are >> > >>>>>> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by >> > >>>>>> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of >> "seeing" >> > >>>> [with the mind's eye?]. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a >> > >>>>>> father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it >> > >>>>>> gestures to another >> > >>>>> dimension, >> > >>>>>> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. >> > >>>>>> I >> > >>>>> would >> > >>>>>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can >> > >>>>>> offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied >> > >>>>>> hearing the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize >> > >>>>>> your notion of >> > >>>>> "intersecting" >> > >>>>>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" >> > >>>>>> [across >> > >>>>> verses] >> > >>>>>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms >> > >>>>>> of >> > >>>>> learning >> > >>>>>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y >> > >>>>>> ways of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of >> > >>>>>> concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the >> > >>>>>> children were able to join >> > >>>>> in >> > >>>>>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be >> > >>>>>> able to >> > >>>>> explain >> > >>>>>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" >> > >>>>>> or >> > >>>>> "context" >> > >>>>>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and >> > >>>>>> historically situated. >> > >>>>>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, >> > >>>>>> Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are >> > >>>>>> indicating is the >> > >>>>> centrality >> > >>>>>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also >> > >>>>>> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and >> worlds. >> > >>>>>> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this >> > >>>>>> does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, >> > >>>>>> and a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply >> > >>>>>> concept-y and >> > >>>>> institutionalized >> > >>>>>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we >> > >>>>>> ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new >> > >>>>>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically >> > >>>>>> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third >> spaces" >> > >>>>>> AS potentially liberating contexts. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two >> > >>>>>> basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project >> > >>>>>> is to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in >> > >>>>>> understanding the notion >> > >>>>> of >> > >>>>>> "recognition". >> > >>>>>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer >> > >>>>>> and done >> > >>>>> to >> > >>>>>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable >> "witnessing" >> > >>>>> within >> > >>>>>> thirdness. >> > >>>>>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> -- >> > >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science >> > >>>>> as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>> ________________________________ >> > >>>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >> > >>>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended >> > >>>> solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. 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While we take every care, >> > >>> Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it >> > >>> is your responsibility to scan >> > >> emails >> > >>> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept >> > >>> responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in >> > >>> this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or >> > >>> services unless accompanied by an official order form. >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >> ________________________________ >> > >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >> > >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >> > >> >> > >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended >> > >> solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. 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Nothing in this email or its attachments >> > >> constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an >> official order form. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > --- >> > Este email foi escaneado pelo Avast antiv?rus. >> > http://www.avast.com >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >> > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >> > >> > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely >> > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not >> > the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the >> > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on >> it. >> > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >> > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not >> > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University >> > accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to >> > scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept >> > responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this >> > email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services >> > unless accompanied by an official order form. >> > >> > >> ________________________________ >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >> >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for >> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the >> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the >> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. >> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not >> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts >> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails >> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility >> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its >> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied >> by an official order form. >> >> > From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jan 20 21:02:59 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 05:02:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> <001701d034b2$3b06d170$b1147450$@terra.com.br> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022930B3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102293237@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk>, Message-ID: <1421816578759.54771@unm.edu> I'd like to ask, regarding this notion of "third space"? Who _perceives_ this third space? From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Jan 20 22:02:15 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 22:02:15 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: <1421816578759.54771@unm.edu> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> <001701d034b2$3b06d170$b1147450$@terra.com.br> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022930B3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102293237@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <1421816578759.54771@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, I would answer that this way of perceiving develops within a particular cultural historical tradition. Jessica is perceiving within a "space of questions and answers" where perceiving is always mediated. Jessica, along with others who have made a "turn" in psychoanalysis from "drives" to "situated contexts" are deeply reflecting within a particular philosophical tradition of human nature and social being/becoming. In particular Jessica engages with Hegel's legacy from within feminist explorations of the historical processes of patriarchy. Her way of perceiving emerges within dialogue with Hegel, Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer. In this sense it is a Eurocentric way of perceiving in the spirit of the Frankfurt School. The other key tradition that facilitates this way of perceiving is Winnicott, Daniel Stern, Trevarthen, Fonagy, who are exploring ways to understand affect regulation from the perspective of baby watching. She brings this historical and psychoanalytic perspective into dialogue with feminism and notions of patriarchy. I,, when reading her work, inevitably am putting my slant on her writings as I explore "self-regulation", "co-regulation" and "other regulation" [the institutional] . Working in elementary schools as a counsellor I was always questioning ways to understand "affect regulation" Annalisa, Jessica Benjamin wrote a book "The Bonds of Love" 25 years ago which has transformed many dialogues within Feminist traditions and psychoanalytic traditions. Hers is a theory of internalization of "self-regulation" so I consider it can be put into play with Vygotsky and Bahktin as a particular historically constituted "project" within a particular cultural historical formation. In her field she is a respected scholar and practitioner and her way of perceiving is facilitating a discourse which is generating creative understandings of domination and liberation and transformation. On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 9:02 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > I'd like to ask, regarding this notion of "third space"? Who _perceives_ > this third space? > > From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jan 20 22:29:03 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 06:29:03 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> <001701d034b2$3b06d170$b1147450$@terra.com.br> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022930B3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102293237@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <1421816578759.54771@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1421821742896.79093@unm.edu> Hi Larry, My question is much simpler, the phrase is "third space" WHERE is it, and WHO says that it is there. If it is not perceived by the child or the father, (the inter-subjects) then is it only perceived by Jessica, the theorist, and those who agree with her? In other words, I'm attempting to understand the metaphor, and why it is called third space. It seems problematic, and I know I'm not the first to feel this way, as I believe others have voiced their skepticism. I understand it's an attempt to describe something perhaps that has not been described before, and that's OK. I don't understand why the father is seen as surrendering, but the mother is not? And if there is a surrendering, then is the child dominating? The mother who does not surrender has a medea complex, but the father, is just being a patriarch, apparently. I don't think that musicians surrender to the beat when they play music together in rhythm with one another, nor do they submit to the beat. They just play. So I'm having issue with the representation of the concept, I suppose. Kind regards, Annalisa From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Wed Jan 21 01:19:33 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 09:19:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> <001701d034b2$3b06d170$b1147450$@terra.com.br> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022930B3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102293237@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102293642@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Larry, I have to apologise again for dipping back in to this conversation when I don't really have time to engage fully with what you have written but I just wanted to throw in my unease about the term 'baby watching'. After reading Vasu Reddy and others on second person perspective I am much more aware of the importance of the difference between 'watching' from outside an interaction (a third-person, spectator perspective) and engaging IN an interaction - as Reddy puts this, the difference between how it feels when you see someone smiling at someone else and when you see someone smiling at YOU. While we can learn a lot about interaction from very close, careful watching of how babies and partners move in response to each other it is also important to recognise how much more is available when we are IN interaction with another person. I think the palpable, embodied FEEL of interaction is primary - babies can FEEL the difference between sympathetically contingent, attentive and attuned response and less co-regulated forms of interaction before they are able to have any sort of conception of another person as another person with whom they are interacting. Seeing the feeling is not quite the same as feeling the feeling! Also, quickly, the adult's marking of an accentuated response is also, surely, a form of pedagogy, demonstrating an active interest in the interests of the baby. All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss Sent: 21 January 2015 05:03 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions Rod, Another aspect of the notion of asymmetrical "marking" as understood within reflective internalized thirdness is the way it can be understood by clarifying how Jessica understands the notion of "equality". Jessica writes: "Symmetry is a crucial part of what unites the pair in complimentarity, the takes-one-to-know-one recognition feature of the doer/done to relation .... In effect, it builds on the deep structure of mirroring and affective matching that operates [largely procedurally and out of awareness] in any dyad, when both partners glare at each other or interrupt in unison. In such interactions, we can see the underlying symmetry that characterizes the apparent opposition of power relations: each feels unable to gain the other's recognition, and each feels in the other's power. In other words, the asymmetrical notion of "marking" which facilitates "third space" requires in Jessica's understanding reflective "surrender" as facilitated by an internal symbolic cultural historical "third space". This space is an imaginal metaphorical "as if" space of possible and potential "enactments" and "witnessing". However underlying this symbolic space is the necessity of rhythmic attunement [accommodation] AND asymmetrical marking [differentiation]. Jessica's understanding of the development of creative "freedom" expresses a distinctive sociality of freedom that involves one subject facilitating the freedom of another through witnessing and hearing the other into voice. However I am suggesting by acting this way [surrendering to the third space] that this is an agentic act, not passive but active. Surrender as Jessica understands the term is a possible answer to relations of domination. A generative as well as generous way of facilitating the development of intersubjective sociality. I was intrigued when I read Peg's response discussing appropriation and misappropriation: Peg wrote" "Here, the old lady uses her "mis-appropriation" within an act of transformation. With children, teachers or parents or other elders, may mis-appropriate children's play -- having children trot or canter or gallup into the classroom as a way to engage them in a transition between space or activity. What's different? Well I'm teasing myself with the notion of "second order" -- for the old lady there's extra consciousness and that "extra" bit is acted by the adult in the case of the children." Peg's reflection on second order "extra" consciousness. THAT "extra bit" that is acted by the adult may overlap with Jessica's notion of the "symbolic metaphorical space of thirdness from within which one acts. What's different" I return to Miguel's comment questioning if there are subject-object performances which are distinct from intersubjective subject-subject enactments. On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Rod > I would say that Jessica would fully endorse this understanding of using > internalized thirdness. as a "reflective" space. This is the aspect of > thirdness that she refers to as the "symbolic third "[ a metaphorical space > of ?s if""perceiving the world through a sociocultural filter. > Your focussing on the centrality of "marking"I would suggest has been > deeply explored by Fonagy and Gergley in there re-searching ""affect > regulation. > Whether others agree or question Jessica's notions of ?ntersubjective > third space"[aspects of attunement, differentiation, and symbolic thirds] > as a mediating environment, the focus on "marking" contrasted with matching > or mirroring] is a profound insight and notions of "self-regulation" can be > expanded by the understanding of affect regulation through asymmetrical > "marking" > > > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >> I have had to read hastily, Larry and I am not at all sure that I have >> followed you and Jessica Benjamin through the psychoanalytical accounts of >> intersubjectivity but I wanted to pick up on her point about the 'marking' >> of the mother's response to a baby's distress (not simply mirroring this >> back in the same form as it came from the baby). The mother/parent is >> perhaps able to use an internalised thirdness to see the (future) >> autonomous self in the actions of the baby, perceiving these through a >> sociocultural filter and responding 'as if' the baby was already a (more >> competent) social agent - or perhaps it is more that the parent responds as >> if the interaction is already such as is had between enculturated agents - >> moving into a third space into which the baby is also drawn. >> >> Rod >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss >> Sent: 20 January 2015 15:41 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions >> >> Rod, >> Yes, and the surrender she is exploring is of the intersubjective type >> [subject subject complimentarity transformed. This is in contrast to >> submission as a relation in which some "one" [person or "idea" is >> "dominant" and privileged such a patriarchal father,] To sub-mit for >> Jessica enacts some "one" is "over"-seeing. >> >> In her example of the walk with the two year old, if this walk becomes >> "duty" through an act of self- assertion or self-regulation this duty >> becomes some"thing" which the parent submits to and there is no longer a >> sense of mutual intersubjective delight in surrendering to the "third" that >> mutual potential space. >> Jessica describes this tension between subjective complimentary twoness >> [i.e. patriarchal father as over lord] and the who submits to the "one" >> [person or ideal] AND intersubjective "thirdness" as a tension which will >> never be dialectically resolved. Thirdness will always rupture and need >> repair. Jessica's is a "moral" third and is a developmental "achievement". >> It requires first having participated and been "held" or "witnessed" >> within palpable felt experience which creates a thirdness of >> intersubjective attunement. This is "accommodation". >> >> The mother's gestures must be "marked" to the rhythm of the babies moods >> and affect as attunement to a rhythmic "dance". This is the context or ZPD >> in which "differentiation" from fusion within "oneness" occurs. >> >> This intersubjective model recognizes that this type of developmental >> "learning" must be co-created and requires the "symbolic" third which >> explores as metaphorical enactments of (a)symmetry. The parent must act >> from within "reflective" presence enacting the third by "morally" >> surrendering to the rhythm or musical patterning using cultural >> historical tools and understandings. >> >> I read Jessica as "seeing through" the historical constellation of two >> independent subjectivie standpoints in relations of complimentarity and >> one is "over" and the other "under" in relations of domination. >> Submitting to a fundamental already known "one" is not intersubjective >> asymmetrical enactments which call forth surrender of the person through >> rhythmical attunements to the other as the "basis" for differentiation of >> the two subjectivities through the moral reflections of the care giver. >> >> This model understands maturity as the care giver having her own >> subjectivity and "twoness" and "thirdness" are never resolved or >> transcended . They co-exist and the care giver must develop the capacity or >> disposition for co-creating attuned, differentiated, and symbolic >> thirdness. What Jessica is suggesting is this process collapses into >> complimentary doer and done to without the recognition this is continually >> co-created "MORAL" thirdness that intentionally resists either/or >> enactments which demand patriarchical recognition and the other must in >> duty submit >> >> The tension is never overcome and it is inevitable that thirdness will >> collapse into twoness. This will be felt as a loss of thirdness and the >> moral struggle is through reflection for the more mature one to >> re-establish thirdness through recognition that the thirdness shifted >> towards self-assertive twoness. It takes the commitment for the person in >> the lead to recognize he/she returned to "twoness" and caused a rupture and >> to sincerely communicate this "truth" to the other participant(s) so the >> felt inevitable disregulation can be validated as a felt truth. >> This acknowledge is capable of reopening this space of thirdness, this >> metaphorical space of potentiality and possibility. >> >> This model is "intersubjective" not subjective Larry >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 5:23 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >> >> > But Benjamin would argue that this is surrender (jointly giving up a >> > focus on self in order to focus on a shared 'third' space of >> > relationship) rather than submission (losing self in/to the >> relationship). >> > >> > Bartels and Zeki (The neural correlates of maternal and romantic love, >> > Neuroimage, 2004, 21, 1155-66) suggest that love is associated with a >> > reduction of activity in parts of the brain associated with social >> > evaluation - so love is, in some respects, blind and lovers (of their >> > own babies or of romantic partners) may be more willing to surrender >> > despite what others might see as flaws in the objects of their love! >> > >> > All the best, >> > >> > Rod >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Maria Judith Sucupira da >> > Costa Lins >> > Sent: 20 January 2015 13:09 >> > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions >> > >> > Submission is presente also in true love. >> > maria >> > >> > -----Mensagem original----- >> > De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] Em nome de HENRY SHONERD Enviada em: >> > segunda-feira, 19 de janeiro de 2015 22:39 >> > Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >> > >> > Larry, >> > Do you think it?s sad-masochistic of me to suggest that we give >> > submission a chance? Unanalyzed, ?submission?, not even a suggestion >> > of a hyphen, as a juicy chunk, I think of Islam, or what I know of it >> > through a hodge podge of media and friendships. But break it down, >> > without even going to the dictionary, ?sub-mission? has the ring of >> > commitment to a project. As a legal term, my dictionary has >> > ?submission? as ?an agreement between parties involved in a dispute?. >> > Here?s more from the semantic cluster: A synonym for ?submission? is >> > ?yield?, from the Middle English. It?s worth mashing up latinate and >> > germanic etymology and morphology to set up mnemonics for the >> > discourse. So, when, if ever, is it good to ?submit?, ?give in?? I >> > submit to the good will of la gente of this chat. There?s gotta be >> > respect and trust. Among other things, that means it has to be >> > voluntary and de buena voluntad. And transparent? Let me suggest a >> > prototypical narr ative of >> > submission: Motherhood. Giving birth and all of that jazz. Creativity >> > with a capital ?C?. Here?s another: death. Everything in between is up >> > for grabs I guess. Probably lots of diversity as they say in the game. >> > Please, chatters, don?t feel the need to respond. I?ll take silence as >> good sign. >> > Like, you?re listening politely. >> > Submissively >> > Henry >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > On Jan 19, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Larry Purss >> wrote: >> > > >> > > Rod, >> > > In the spirit of your caution and acknowledging its truth value, I >> > > want to say I was hesitant to use the term "surrender" for how it >> > > would be misunderstood. In a similar way to the misunderstandings >> > > of the term "mind". >> > > >> > > I will mention that Jessica is consciously using the word "surrender" >> > > as NOT "submission" as she tries to articulate a nypothesis that >> > > sees through "domination" and the struggle to the death of >> > > complimentary >> > "recognition" >> > > I fully expect Jessica's work to instigate passionate responses. >> > > Her work does develop from Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer, Fromm and >> > > the Frankfurt school. >> > > Jessica says we have conflated "surrender" with "submission" and >> > > Jessica's use of the term "surrender" must be seen as being engaged >> > > in exploring [and putting in play] notions of instrumental >> > > internalized "self-regulation" AND notions of the "third space" as >> > > coming into being through "surrender" to a place of potentiality and >> > > possibility >> > that is moving "beyond" >> > > self-assertion as a complimentary struggle to the death. >> > > >> > > Rod, the play of "active" and "receptive" thirds [in contrast to >> > > active and passive twoness] is the place which Jessica is inviting >> > > us to >> > occupy. >> > > >> > > Notions of "surrender" carry huge baggage and and will invite >> > > palpable rejection as concepts. This is a fact. It is challenging >> > > particular notions of "subjective" and "intersubjective" >> > > However, if we begin within a dialogical awareness and acknowledge >> > > that using a term such as "surrender" will be read by most and >> > > rejected as implying "submission" and "domination" and "passivity" >> > > and "loosing the self", then the process that you and I are engaged >> > > in at this moment is the hermeneutical enactment of differentiating >> > > and "marking" the distinctions the distinctions between "surrender" >> > > and "submission" Jessica is asking us to pause and be reflective and >> > consider this distinction. >> > > >> > > Rod, Jessica is working within a "tradition" [the Frankfurt School >> > > where she is in dialogue with Hegel, Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer. >> > > Her project is to "see through" the patterns of complimentary >> "twoness" >> > > [doer and done to giver and given to]. The term "surrender" is being >> > > used within this tradition. >> > > >> > > This term "surrender" [as exemplified in Stephen Mitchell's story of >> > > letting go of his "idea" of "a walk" to enter his daughter's >> > > enactment of "a walk" is central to Jessica's notion of >> > > living-in-truth. Yes, it invites further dialogue and will be >> > > misunderstood. It requires further dialogue. >> > > >> > > I could have tried to write an essay fully outlining the term >> "surrender" >> > > This word has sparked considerable response within the tradition of >> > > feminism. I could also she it being challenged as Eurocentric or too >> > > psychological [emphasizing both accommodation and differentiation]. >> > > >> > > Posting to the listserve and inviting commentary and further >> > > questions on the term "surrender" is another approach. >> > > >> > > I also hoped to find a "bridge" to Kris' understanding of "third >> > > space" and her exploration of intersubjective testimonio as hybrid >> > > co-creative mutual rhythmic patterns forming within third spaces. I >> > > see a quality of "surrender" [as Jessica uses the term] in Kris' >> > > exploration of third spaces. >> > > >> > > Vygotsky explores internalized "self-regulation" as a developmental >> task. >> > > Jessica suggests the development of self regulation moves through >> > > asymmetrical accommodation AND differentiation. For Jessica this >> > > psychological development [if it is to form third spaces] requires >> > > asymmetrical agentic active "surrender" as a way beyond a struggle >> > > to the death of complimentary twoness. >> > > In summary, I understand Jessica's work as an aspect of cultural >> > > historical understanding, that includes social theory of emotions >> > > and cognition and culture that is historical. >> > > The term "surrender" is a discursive and dialogical form of enactment. >> > > It was offered in the spirit of open ended dialogue but I was aware >> > > and took a chance in using the word "surrender" Another word would >> > > have been less controversial but I do question if being >> > > misunderstood and then requiring further clarification is an >> approach with some value. >> > > >> > > I do not intend the use of "surrender" as an alternative approach to >> > > cultural historical theory. >> > > The use of this term is meant in a spirit of dialogue and the "piety" >> > > of questions inviting answers. >> > > Rod, in the way I presented the term "surrender", I may have >> > > elaborated further, and clarified more, but I was not sure if there >> > > were others who shared an interest in this topic of complimentary >> > > twoness and co-creative thirdness. I was interested in going deeper >> > > into understanding "third spaces" and by posting was feeling my way >> > > in by probing the level of interest. >> > > >> > > Larry >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < >> > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >> > > >> > >> Larry, >> > >> As I said, I like Benjamin's distinction between surrender and >> > >> submission but I also think that it is not so simple to introduce >> > >> new shadings of meaning to a word/concept which is already part of >> > >> people's vocabulary. For most people, outside the group of those >> > >> who know about Benjamin's work, surrender WILL still carry felt >> > >> associations with unwillingly giving up ownership or control of >> > >> something prized/valued. This is bound to result in >> > >> miscommunication unless those who use surrender in its new sense >> > >> signal and explain this use. I think an awareness of how we can >> > >> expect others to react (body, mind and soul) is a core aspect of >> > >> communication and ethical behaviour. We can't just occupy that >> > >> third space and expect others to >> > surrender to the meanings we want to introduce! >> > >> >> > >> Rod >> > >> >> > >> Sent from my Windows Phone >> > >> ________________________________ >> > >> From: Larry Purss >> > >> Sent: 19/01/2015 01:29 >> > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >> > >> >> > >> Miguel, >> > >> The article I have been referencing is from Jessica Benjamin's >> > >> article "Beyond Doer and Done To: An Intersubjective View of >> > >> Thirdness" There is an extensive bibliography . Interestingly >> > >> Jessica's dissertation was written in 1978 with the title, >> > "Internalization and Instrumental Culture: >> > >> A Reinterpretation of Psychoanalysis and Social Theory" >> > >> Rod, >> > >> Jessica references Colwyn Trevarthen as a source of her notion of >> > >> "surrender". Yes, this word will make some uncomfortable, but this >> > >> term must be seen as clearly differentiated from the notion of >> > "submission" >> > >> which Jessica believes are often conflated. I view "surrender" as >> > >> Jessica uses the term as an "agentic" act that is ethical. It is an >> > >> act [or enactment] which is felt as expansive, not as restrictive >> > >> of >> > "self" >> > >> I am going to share a quote from Jessica's paper that she offered >> > >> to differentiate the palpable difference between "surrender" and >> > "submission". >> > >> She is quoting Stephen Mitchell who is a key person in developing >> > >> relational and hermeneutical psychoanalysis. >> > >> Mitchell wrote: >> > >> >> > >> When my older daughter was about two or so, I remember my >> > >> excitement at the prospect [LP-imaginal] of taking walks with her, >> > >> given her new ambulatory skills and her intense interest in being >> outdoors. >> > >> However, I soon found these walks agonizingly slow. My idea of a >> > >> walk entailed brisk movement along a road or path. Her idea was >> > >> quite different. The implication of this difference hit me one day >> > >> when we encountered a fallen tree on the side of the road.... >> > >> The rest of the "walk" was spent exploring the fungal and insect >> > >> life on, under, and around the tree. I remember my sudden >> > >> realization that these walks would be no fun for me, merely a >> > >> parental duty, if I held onto my idea of walks. As I was able to >> > >> give that up and SURRENDER to my daughter's rhythm and focus, a >> > >> different type of experience opened up to me..... If I had simply >> > >> RESTRAINED myself out of duty, I would have experienced the walk as >> > >> a compliance. But I was able to become my daughter's version of a >> > >> good companion and to find in THAT another way for me to be that >> > >> took on great personal meaning" [Benjamin, page 26] >> > >> >> > >> For Benjamin and Mitchell this quote expresses the principle of >> > >> necessary asymmetry, by accommodating to the other as a way of >> > "generating" >> > >> thirdness. and within the "surrendering" the person is transformed, >> > >> through opening up to mutual pleasure. >> > >> >> > >> Jessica is asking how we distinguish between the compliance of >> "twoness" >> > >> from the transformational learning of thirdness. For Jessica the >> > >> answer is ethical, in the form of reflections on what will create >> > >> intersubjective connection in our relationship, and through this >> > >> reflection, opening up to surrender and transformation. This >> > >> creative enactment expresses agency and is not coerced. It is an >> > >> ethical response. This "intention" to connect and the resulting >> > >> self-observation create what Jessical calls "moral thirdness", the >> > >> connection to a larger expansive connection beyond giver and given >> > >> to >> > that is felt as palpably "right". >> > >> In all Jessica's work she is distinguishing "surrender" from >> > "submission" >> > >> [including submitting to an "ideal" of "pure" empathy. which is a >> > >> denial of self and leads to complimentary doer and done to. >> > >> >> > >> For Jessica this moral third space is the space where >> > >> "self-regulation" and "co-regulation" meet. But that would require >> > further elaboration. >> > >> Larry >> > >> >> > >> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < >> > >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >> > >> >> > >>> Larry, >> > >>> >> > >>> Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's >> > >>> distinction between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I >> > >>> suspect that both terms might trigger associations for many which >> > >>> might make them uncomfortable about using them in these ways). >> > >>> Your observations about possibility >> > >>> (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and common >> > >>> experience might contribute to the building of richer and more >> > >>> extensive possibilities among a community or a group of people who >> > >>> spend time together (especially 'down' time, when they are more >> > >>> relaxed and their social guards are down). It is easier and more >> > agreeable to 'surrender' >> > >>> into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social >> > >>> conversation >> > >> with >> > >>> no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to >> > >>> contribute to the co-construction of a third space which is shaped >> > >>> not so much by >> > >> the >> > >>> thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of >> > >>> interactions between them. This sort of surrendering into a group >> > >>> feels very different from submitting to the ordered, planned >> > >>> procedures of a 'getting things done' sort of meeting (though >> > >>> there is >> > room for overlap). >> > >>> >> > >>>> From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very >> > >>>> much like >> > >>> what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when >> > >>> baby and caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for the >> > >>> sake of >> > >> engaging >> > >>> with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the 'great >> we'). >> > >>> >> > >>> I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of our >> > >>> own and other selves moves in and out of this sort of third space. >> > >>> Vera captured some lovely aspects of this in her book 'Creative >> > >>> Collaboration' - how >> > >> the >> > >>> 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates the >> > >>> possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. >> > >>> >> > >>> All the best, >> > >>> >> > >>> Rod >> > >>> >> > >>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss >> > >>> Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 >> > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >> > >>> >> > >>> Rod, I concur with your interpretations. >> > >>> I would add to your comment: >> > >>> >> > >>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to >> > >>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help >> > >>> to remind >> > >> them >> > >>> that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what >> > >>> looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! >> > >>> >> > >>> The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others >> > >>> expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's >> > >>> internalized "scripts". >> > >>> This is exploring "my" act and your return act. >> > >>> >> > >>> Third space notions ask or question if there are "intersubjective" >> > >>> ways >> > >> to >> > >>> enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal >> > >> "potential" >> > >>> places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not yet >> > >>> exist but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of "posse" >> > >>> [meaning can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a "transformation" >> > >>> through >> > >> activities >> > >>> [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared realm". >> > >>> >> > >>> This way of understanding is playing with notions of metaphorical >> > >>> and imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared >> > >>> potential spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third >> > >>> spaces of >> > >> "possibility" >> > >>> within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which >> > >>> things are not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, >> > >>> categorized, predictable, >> > >> and >> > >>> with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". >> > >>> >> > >>> What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of >> "intersubjective" >> > >>> mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. >> > >>> >> > >>> Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" >> > >>> to >> > >> "exist" >> > >>> in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other >> > >>> as >> > >> things >> > >>> or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced being >> > >>> reduced by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and >> > >>> collapses into complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or >> > >>> "doer >> > and done to" >> > >>> Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" and >> > >>> "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic "third" >> > >>> that which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" >> > >>> The third space must be enacted performed or take action but >> > >>> moving out from within this imaginal shared space. >> > >>> >> > >>> This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" >> > >>> becoming actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no absolute >> > >>> freedom fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint >> fundamentally. >> > >>> However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal >> > >>> symbolic shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This >> > >>> in no way means "submit" >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < >> > >>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>>> I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly >> > >>>> conscious of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been >> > explored. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a >> > >>>> significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that >> > >>>> it should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking >> > >>>> example of what we all do every day when we make choices about >> > >>>> how we will represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of >> > >>>> clothes, how we do our hair, what we smell like, how we stand and >> > >>>> walk, how we greet people etc. all play off our knowledge of what >> > >>>> different choices are likely to be taken to mean (by different >> > >>>> groups of people). I think this links to what Larry (I think) was >> > >>>> saying about the concept-y-ness of the context-y environment in >> > >>>> which babies >> > play their way into meanings. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to >> > >>>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might >> > >>>> help to remind them that things are not simple, categorised and >> > >>>> predictable - what looks at first like a frail old woman may turn >> > >>>> out >> > to be a person! >> > >>>> >> > >>>> I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised >> > >>>> cultural knowledge which informs our choices about how we will >> > >>>> present ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) >> > >>>> feeling of ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing >> > >>>> how we are 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. >> > >>>> When the rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy >> > >>>> to join in but when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we >> > >>>> need to watch from the periphery for a while before we presume to >> > >>>> know what we are >> > doing. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> All the best, >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Rod >> > >>>> >> > >>>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>>> From: >> > >>>> xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu >> > >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees >> =plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd. >> > >>>> edu >> > >>>> ] >> > >>>> On Behalf Of Larry Purss >> > >>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 >> > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Mike, >> > >>>> You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and >> > >>>> social emotions are intimately involved along with other "musical" >> > >>>> rhythmic modalities. >> > >>>> Thought and language and the figural within enactments >> > >>>> [performances] >> > >>>> >> > >>>> You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say >> > >>>> it is a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to >> > >>>> explore what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" >> > >>>> and cognitive enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in >> > >>>> setting >> > the "scene" >> > >>>> The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring >> > >>>> enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the >> > >>>> "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a >> > >>>> more >> > >>> metaphorical enactment. >> > >>>> Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or >> > >>>> is the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being >> > >>>> in the world as "possibility". >> > >>>> In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a >> > >>>> "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted >> > >>>> brings >> > >>> into "actuality" >> > >>>> the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a >> > >>>> possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person >> > >>>> and enacting this alternative possible "scene". >> > >>>> The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable >> > >>>> felt experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" >> > >>>> and becomes "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over >> > >>>> a cane was acting from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is this >> "place" >> > >>>> internal or >> > >>> external? >> > >>>> or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet >> exist? >> > >>>> Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] >> > >>>> presence [both internal imagining and external performances] >> > >>>> there are always palpable felt experiences and every >> > >>>> "interpretation" is guided by these multi-modal ways of >> understanding. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" >> > >>>> and "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and >> > >>>> palpable felt experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal >> > >>>> symbolic dimension as "potential" or "transitional" spaces >> > >>>> >> > >>>> The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third >> > >>>> spaces is there embodied presence and there witnessing quality >> > >>>> which is often marginalized or disowned when we privilege a >> > >>>> particular "type" of rationality and thinking. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of >> > >>>> "third >> > >>> spaces" >> > >>>> is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is >> > >>>> included and who is excluded. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole wrote: >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot >> > >>>>> about what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness >> > >>>>> that I think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out >> > >>>>> if I am wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its >> interesting!). >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of >> > >>>>> my wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in >> > >>>>> ill health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her >> years. >> > >>>>> Balance is an issue for her. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed >> > >>>>> that she was carrying a large staff. >> > >>>>> I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like Gandalf! >> > >>>>> and gave her a big hug." >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a >> > >>>>> cane, she lost the invisibility created by old age and she >> > >>>>> became a perons to others. People constantly started up >> > >>>>> conversations with her and, being a skilled conversationalist >> > >>>>> interested in people, it made her feel like a whole person. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or >> > >>>>> (?) a >> > >>> tool? >> > >>>>> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as >> > >> well. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> mike >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> mike >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss >> > >>>>> >> > >>>> wrote: >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>> Miguel, Rod, >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the >> > >>>>>> other thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I >> > >>>>>> see these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that >> > >>>>>> contrast with >> > >>>> "twoness" >> > >>>>>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower >> > >>>>>> and >> > >>>>> learner, >> > >>>>>> etc.] >> > >>>>>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby >> > >>>>> watcher's I >> > >>>>>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one >> > >>>>>> stream in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan >> > >>>>>> privileges language in his notion of thirdness. There is also >> > >>>>>> the work of Stolorow Atwood, and Donna Orange, [intersubjective >> > >>>>>> psychodynamics] who do not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a >> > >>>>>> developmental achievement as bothDaniel Stern >> > >>>>> and >> > >>>>>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. >> > >>>>>> In Jessica's words: >> > >>>>>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other >> > >>>>>> as growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized >> > >>>>>> by the other, as a crucial component of attachment responses >> > >>>>>> that require mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, >> > >>>>>> as ultimately a >> > >>>> pleasure and not a chore" >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and >> > >>>>>> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. >> > >>>>>> My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and >> > >>>>>> rhythmicity] are felt to be >> > >>>>> in >> > >>>>>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when >> > >>>>>> there are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the >> > >>>>>> way to understanding >> > >>>>> we >> > >>>>>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our >> > >>>>>> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt >> > >>>> experience. >> > >>>>>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the >> > >>>>>> "struggle for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" >> and "thirdness" >> > >>>>>> Her >> > >>>>> project >> > >>>>>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model >> > >>>>>> for expressing this struggle for recognition. >> > >>>>>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle >> > >>>>>> for recognition is through a developmental trajectory of >> > >>>>>> intersubjective development of thirdness. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through >> > >>>>>> privileging sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to >> come to "know" >> > >>>>>> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation >> > >>>>>> as this analytic kernel >> > >>>>> is >> > >>>>>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are >> > >>>>>> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by >> > >>>>>> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of >> "seeing" >> > >>>> [with the mind's eye?]. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a >> > >>>>>> father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it >> > >>>>>> gestures to another >> > >>>>> dimension, >> > >>>>>> another quality of thirdness as embodied enactments/performances. >> > >>>>>> I >> > >>>>> would >> > >>>>>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can >> > >>>>>> offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied >> > >>>>>> hearing the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize >> > >>>>>> your notion of >> > >>>>> "intersecting" >> > >>>>>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" >> > >>>>>> [across >> > >>>>> verses] >> > >>>>>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms >> > >>>>>> of >> > >>>>> learning >> > >>>>>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y >> > >>>>>> ways of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of >> > >>>>>> concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the >> > >>>>>> children were able to join >> > >>>>> in >> > >>>>>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be >> > >>>>>> able to >> > >>>>> explain >> > >>>>>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" >> > >>>>>> or >> > >>>>> "context" >> > >>>>>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and >> > >>>>>> historically situated. >> > >>>>>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, >> > >>>>>> Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are >> > >>>>>> indicating is the >> > >>>>> centrality >> > >>>>>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also >> > >>>>>> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and >> worlds. >> > >>>>>> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this >> > >>>>>> does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, >> > >>>>>> and a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply >> > >>>>>> concept-y and >> > >>>>> institutionalized >> > >>>>>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we >> > >>>>>> ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new >> > >>>>>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically >> > >>>>>> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third >> spaces" >> > >>>>>> AS potentially liberating contexts. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two >> > >>>>>> basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project >> > >>>>>> is to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in >> > >>>>>> understanding the notion >> > >>>>> of >> > >>>>>> "recognition". >> > >>>>>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer >> > >>>>>> and done >> > >>>>> to >> > >>>>>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable >> "witnessing" >> > >>>>> within >> > >>>>>> thirdness. >> > >>>>>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> -- >> > >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science >> > >>>>> as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>> ________________________________ >> > >>>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >> > >>>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended >> > >>>> solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. 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From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Jan 21 07:42:55 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 07:42:55 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102293642@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> <001701d034b2$3b06d170$b1147450$@terra.com.br> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022930B3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102293237@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102293642@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Rod, I am in full agreement with what you have written. The "watching" stance [observational stance] [spectator stance] ia the exact opposite of what I wanted to portray. I will drop the term "baby watching" The term "third space" also can be questioned and the term "zone of mediation" or mediated zone could be used. The question becoming when is this "zone" have a felt sense of "doer and done to as a complimentary zone of learning, and when can we reflectively enact a mediated zone. The question who "perceives" in this way are persons who are searching [and creating] alternative approaches beyond being spectators. Play also can be considered turn taking [my turn your turn, each person playing] and alternatively as "surrendering" to the play or being carried along "within" the play. There is a difference in how participation is "felt" or affected. On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 1:19 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > Larry, > > I have to apologise again for dipping back in to this conversation when I > don't really have time to engage fully with what you have written but I > just wanted to throw in my unease about the term 'baby watching'. After > reading Vasu Reddy and others on second person perspective I am much more > aware of the importance of the difference between 'watching' from outside > an interaction (a third-person, spectator perspective) and engaging IN an > interaction - as Reddy puts this, the difference between how it feels when > you see someone smiling at someone else and when you see someone smiling at > YOU. While we can learn a lot about interaction from very close, careful > watching of how babies and partners move in response to each other it is > also important to recognise how much more is available when we are IN > interaction with another person. I think the palpable, embodied FEEL of > interaction is primary - babies can FEEL the difference between > sympathetically contingent, attentive and attuned response and less > co-regulated forms of interaction before they are able to have any sort of > conception of another person as another person with whom they are > interacting. Seeing the feeling is not quite the same as feeling the > feeling! > > Also, quickly, the adult's marking of an accentuated response is also, > surely, a form of pedagogy, demonstrating an active interest in the > interests of the baby. > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > Sent: 21 January 2015 05:03 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > Rod, > Another aspect of the notion of asymmetrical "marking" as understood within > reflective internalized thirdness is the way it can be understood by > clarifying how Jessica understands the notion of "equality". > Jessica writes: > > "Symmetry is a crucial part of what unites the pair in complimentarity, the > takes-one-to-know-one recognition feature of the doer/done to relation .... > In effect, it builds on the deep structure of mirroring and affective > matching that operates [largely procedurally and out of awareness] in any > dyad, when both partners glare at each other or interrupt in unison. In > such interactions, we can see the underlying symmetry that characterizes > the apparent opposition of power relations: each feels unable to gain the > other's recognition, and each feels in the other's power. > > In other words, the asymmetrical notion of "marking" which facilitates > "third space" requires in Jessica's understanding reflective "surrender" > as facilitated by an internal symbolic cultural historical "third > space". This space is an imaginal metaphorical "as if" space of possible > and potential "enactments" and "witnessing". However underlying this > symbolic space is the necessity of rhythmic attunement [accommodation] AND > asymmetrical marking [differentiation]. > > Jessica's understanding of the development of creative "freedom" expresses > a distinctive sociality of freedom that involves one subject facilitating > the freedom of another through witnessing and hearing the other into > voice. However I am suggesting by acting this way [surrendering to the > third space] that this is an agentic act, not passive but active. Surrender > as Jessica understands the term is a possible answer to relations of > domination. A generative as well as generous way of facilitating the > development of intersubjective sociality. > > I was intrigued when I read Peg's response discussing appropriation and > misappropriation: Peg wrote" > > "Here, the old lady uses her "mis-appropriation" within an act of > transformation. With children, teachers or parents or other elders, may > mis-appropriate children's play -- having children trot or canter or > gallup into the classroom as a way to engage them in a transition between > space or activity. What's different? Well I'm teasing myself with the > notion of "second order" -- for the old lady there's extra consciousness > and that "extra" bit is acted by the adult in the case of the children." > > Peg's reflection on second order "extra" consciousness. THAT "extra bit" > that is acted by the adult may overlap with Jessica's notion of the > "symbolic metaphorical space of thirdness from within which one acts. > What's different" I return to Miguel's comment questioning if there are > subject-object performances which are distinct from intersubjective > subject-subject enactments. > > > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > Rod > > I would say that Jessica would fully endorse this understanding of using > > internalized thirdness. as a "reflective" space. This is the aspect of > > thirdness that she refers to as the "symbolic third "[ a metaphorical > space > > of ?s if""perceiving the world through a sociocultural filter. > > Your focussing on the centrality of "marking"I would suggest has been > > deeply explored by Fonagy and Gergley in there re-searching ""affect > > regulation. > > Whether others agree or question Jessica's notions of ?ntersubjective > > third space"[aspects of attunement, differentiation, and symbolic thirds] > > as a mediating environment, the focus on "marking" contrasted with > matching > > or mirroring] is a profound insight and notions of "self-regulation" can > be > > expanded by the understanding of affect regulation through asymmetrical > > "marking" > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > >> I have had to read hastily, Larry and I am not at all sure that I have > >> followed you and Jessica Benjamin through the psychoanalytical accounts > of > >> intersubjectivity but I wanted to pick up on her point about the > 'marking' > >> of the mother's response to a baby's distress (not simply mirroring this > >> back in the same form as it came from the baby). The mother/parent is > >> perhaps able to use an internalised thirdness to see the (future) > >> autonomous self in the actions of the baby, perceiving these through a > >> sociocultural filter and responding 'as if' the baby was already a (more > >> competent) social agent - or perhaps it is more that the parent > responds as > >> if the interaction is already such as is had between enculturated > agents - > >> moving into a third space into which the baby is also drawn. > >> > >> Rod > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > >> Sent: 20 January 2015 15:41 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions > >> > >> Rod, > >> Yes, and the surrender she is exploring is of the intersubjective type > >> [subject subject complimentarity transformed. This is in contrast to > >> submission as a relation in which some "one" [person or "idea" is > >> "dominant" and privileged such a patriarchal father,] To sub-mit for > >> Jessica enacts some "one" is "over"-seeing. > >> > >> In her example of the walk with the two year old, if this walk becomes > >> "duty" through an act of self- assertion or self-regulation this duty > >> becomes some"thing" which the parent submits to and there is no longer > a > >> sense of mutual intersubjective delight in surrendering to the "third" > that > >> mutual potential space. > >> Jessica describes this tension between subjective complimentary twoness > >> [i.e. patriarchal father as over lord] and the who submits to the "one" > >> [person or ideal] AND intersubjective "thirdness" as a tension which > will > >> never be dialectically resolved. Thirdness will always rupture and need > >> repair. Jessica's is a "moral" third and is a developmental > "achievement". > >> It requires first having participated and been "held" or "witnessed" > >> within palpable felt experience which creates a thirdness of > >> intersubjective attunement. This is "accommodation". > >> > >> The mother's gestures must be "marked" to the rhythm of the babies moods > >> and affect as attunement to a rhythmic "dance". This is the context or > ZPD > >> in which "differentiation" from fusion within "oneness" occurs. > >> > >> This intersubjective model recognizes that this type of developmental > >> "learning" must be co-created and requires the "symbolic" third which > >> explores as metaphorical enactments of (a)symmetry. The parent must act > >> from within "reflective" presence enacting the third by "morally" > >> surrendering to the rhythm or musical patterning using cultural > >> historical tools and understandings. > >> > >> I read Jessica as "seeing through" the historical constellation of two > >> independent subjectivie standpoints in relations of complimentarity and > >> one is "over" and the other "under" in relations of domination. > >> Submitting to a fundamental already known "one" is not intersubjective > >> asymmetrical enactments which call forth surrender of the person through > >> rhythmical attunements to the other as the "basis" for differentiation > of > >> the two subjectivities through the moral reflections of the care giver. > >> > >> This model understands maturity as the care giver having her own > >> subjectivity and "twoness" and "thirdness" are never resolved or > >> transcended . They co-exist and the care giver must develop the > capacity or > >> disposition for co-creating attuned, differentiated, and symbolic > >> thirdness. What Jessica is suggesting is this process collapses into > >> complimentary doer and done to without the recognition this is > continually > >> co-created "MORAL" thirdness that intentionally resists either/or > >> enactments which demand patriarchical recognition and the other must in > >> duty submit > >> > >> The tension is never overcome and it is inevitable that thirdness will > >> collapse into twoness. This will be felt as a loss of thirdness and the > >> moral struggle is through reflection for the more mature one to > >> re-establish thirdness through recognition that the thirdness shifted > >> towards self-assertive twoness. It takes the commitment for the person > in > >> the lead to recognize he/she returned to "twoness" and caused a rupture > and > >> to sincerely communicate this "truth" to the other participant(s) so the > >> felt inevitable disregulation can be validated as a felt truth. > >> This acknowledge is capable of reopening this space of thirdness, this > >> metaphorical space of potentiality and possibility. > >> > >> This model is "intersubjective" not subjective Larry > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 5:23 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >> > >> > But Benjamin would argue that this is surrender (jointly giving up a > >> > focus on self in order to focus on a shared 'third' space of > >> > relationship) rather than submission (losing self in/to the > >> relationship). > >> > > >> > Bartels and Zeki (The neural correlates of maternal and romantic love, > >> > Neuroimage, 2004, 21, 1155-66) suggest that love is associated with a > >> > reduction of activity in parts of the brain associated with social > >> > evaluation - so love is, in some respects, blind and lovers (of their > >> > own babies or of romantic partners) may be more willing to surrender > >> > despite what others might see as flaws in the objects of their love! > >> > > >> > All the best, > >> > > >> > Rod > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >> > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Maria Judith Sucupira > da > >> > Costa Lins > >> > Sent: 20 January 2015 13:09 > >> > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions > >> > > >> > Submission is presente also in true love. > >> > maria > >> > > >> > -----Mensagem original----- > >> > De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >> > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] Em nome de HENRY SHONERD Enviada em: > >> > segunda-feira, 19 de janeiro de 2015 22:39 > >> > Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> > Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > >> > > >> > Larry, > >> > Do you think it?s sad-masochistic of me to suggest that we give > >> > submission a chance? Unanalyzed, ?submission?, not even a suggestion > >> > of a hyphen, as a juicy chunk, I think of Islam, or what I know of it > >> > through a hodge podge of media and friendships. But break it down, > >> > without even going to the dictionary, ?sub-mission? has the ring of > >> > commitment to a project. As a legal term, my dictionary has > >> > ?submission? as ?an agreement between parties involved in a dispute?. > >> > Here?s more from the semantic cluster: A synonym for ?submission? is > >> > ?yield?, from the Middle English. It?s worth mashing up latinate and > >> > germanic etymology and morphology to set up mnemonics for the > >> > discourse. So, when, if ever, is it good to ?submit?, ?give in?? I > >> > submit to the good will of la gente of this chat. There?s gotta be > >> > respect and trust. Among other things, that means it has to be > >> > voluntary and de buena voluntad. And transparent? Let me suggest a > >> > prototypical narr ative of > >> > submission: Motherhood. Giving birth and all of that jazz. Creativity > >> > with a capital ?C?. Here?s another: death. Everything in between is up > >> > for grabs I guess. Probably lots of diversity as they say in the game. > >> > Please, chatters, don?t feel the need to respond. I?ll take silence as > >> good sign. > >> > Like, you?re listening politely. > >> > Submissively > >> > Henry > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Jan 19, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Larry Purss > >> wrote: > >> > > > >> > > Rod, > >> > > In the spirit of your caution and acknowledging its truth value, I > >> > > want to say I was hesitant to use the term "surrender" for how it > >> > > would be misunderstood. In a similar way to the misunderstandings > >> > > of the term "mind". > >> > > > >> > > I will mention that Jessica is consciously using the word > "surrender" > >> > > as NOT "submission" as she tries to articulate a nypothesis that > >> > > sees through "domination" and the struggle to the death of > >> > > complimentary > >> > "recognition" > >> > > I fully expect Jessica's work to instigate passionate responses. > >> > > Her work does develop from Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer, Fromm and > >> > > the Frankfurt school. > >> > > Jessica says we have conflated "surrender" with "submission" and > >> > > Jessica's use of the term "surrender" must be seen as being engaged > >> > > in exploring [and putting in play] notions of instrumental > >> > > internalized "self-regulation" AND notions of the "third space" as > >> > > coming into being through "surrender" to a place of potentiality and > >> > > possibility > >> > that is moving "beyond" > >> > > self-assertion as a complimentary struggle to the death. > >> > > > >> > > Rod, the play of "active" and "receptive" thirds [in contrast to > >> > > active and passive twoness] is the place which Jessica is inviting > >> > > us to > >> > occupy. > >> > > > >> > > Notions of "surrender" carry huge baggage and and will invite > >> > > palpable rejection as concepts. This is a fact. It is challenging > >> > > particular notions of "subjective" and "intersubjective" > >> > > However, if we begin within a dialogical awareness and acknowledge > >> > > that using a term such as "surrender" will be read by most and > >> > > rejected as implying "submission" and "domination" and "passivity" > >> > > and "loosing the self", then the process that you and I are engaged > >> > > in at this moment is the hermeneutical enactment of differentiating > >> > > and "marking" the distinctions the distinctions between "surrender" > >> > > and "submission" Jessica is asking us to pause and be reflective and > >> > consider this distinction. > >> > > > >> > > Rod, Jessica is working within a "tradition" [the Frankfurt School > >> > > where she is in dialogue with Hegel, Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer. > >> > > Her project is to "see through" the patterns of complimentary > >> "twoness" > >> > > [doer and done to giver and given to]. The term "surrender" is being > >> > > used within this tradition. > >> > > > >> > > This term "surrender" [as exemplified in Stephen Mitchell's story of > >> > > letting go of his "idea" of "a walk" to enter his daughter's > >> > > enactment of "a walk" is central to Jessica's notion of > >> > > living-in-truth. Yes, it invites further dialogue and will be > >> > > misunderstood. It requires further dialogue. > >> > > > >> > > I could have tried to write an essay fully outlining the term > >> "surrender" > >> > > This word has sparked considerable response within the tradition of > >> > > feminism. I could also she it being challenged as Eurocentric or too > >> > > psychological [emphasizing both accommodation and differentiation]. > >> > > > >> > > Posting to the listserve and inviting commentary and further > >> > > questions on the term "surrender" is another approach. > >> > > > >> > > I also hoped to find a "bridge" to Kris' understanding of "third > >> > > space" and her exploration of intersubjective testimonio as hybrid > >> > > co-creative mutual rhythmic patterns forming within third spaces. I > >> > > see a quality of "surrender" [as Jessica uses the term] in Kris' > >> > > exploration of third spaces. > >> > > > >> > > Vygotsky explores internalized "self-regulation" as a developmental > >> task. > >> > > Jessica suggests the development of self regulation moves through > >> > > asymmetrical accommodation AND differentiation. For Jessica this > >> > > psychological development [if it is to form third spaces] requires > >> > > asymmetrical agentic active "surrender" as a way beyond a struggle > >> > > to the death of complimentary twoness. > >> > > In summary, I understand Jessica's work as an aspect of cultural > >> > > historical understanding, that includes social theory of emotions > >> > > and cognition and culture that is historical. > >> > > The term "surrender" is a discursive and dialogical form of > enactment. > >> > > It was offered in the spirit of open ended dialogue but I was aware > >> > > and took a chance in using the word "surrender" Another word would > >> > > have been less controversial but I do question if being > >> > > misunderstood and then requiring further clarification is an > >> approach with some value. > >> > > > >> > > I do not intend the use of "surrender" as an alternative approach to > >> > > cultural historical theory. > >> > > The use of this term is meant in a spirit of dialogue and the > "piety" > >> > > of questions inviting answers. > >> > > Rod, in the way I presented the term "surrender", I may have > >> > > elaborated further, and clarified more, but I was not sure if there > >> > > were others who shared an interest in this topic of complimentary > >> > > twoness and co-creative thirdness. I was interested in going deeper > >> > > into understanding "third spaces" and by posting was feeling my way > >> > > in by probing the level of interest. > >> > > > >> > > Larry > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < > >> > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >> > > > >> > >> Larry, > >> > >> As I said, I like Benjamin's distinction between surrender and > >> > >> submission but I also think that it is not so simple to introduce > >> > >> new shadings of meaning to a word/concept which is already part of > >> > >> people's vocabulary. For most people, outside the group of those > >> > >> who know about Benjamin's work, surrender WILL still carry felt > >> > >> associations with unwillingly giving up ownership or control of > >> > >> something prized/valued. This is bound to result in > >> > >> miscommunication unless those who use surrender in its new sense > >> > >> signal and explain this use. I think an awareness of how we can > >> > >> expect others to react (body, mind and soul) is a core aspect of > >> > >> communication and ethical behaviour. We can't just occupy that > >> > >> third space and expect others to > >> > surrender to the meanings we want to introduce! > >> > >> > >> > >> Rod > >> > >> > >> > >> Sent from my Windows Phone > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> > >> From: Larry Purss > >> > >> Sent: 19/01/2015 01:29 > >> > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > >> > >> > >> > >> Miguel, > >> > >> The article I have been referencing is from Jessica Benjamin's > >> > >> article "Beyond Doer and Done To: An Intersubjective View of > >> > >> Thirdness" There is an extensive bibliography . Interestingly > >> > >> Jessica's dissertation was written in 1978 with the title, > >> > "Internalization and Instrumental Culture: > >> > >> A Reinterpretation of Psychoanalysis and Social Theory" > >> > >> Rod, > >> > >> Jessica references Colwyn Trevarthen as a source of her notion of > >> > >> "surrender". Yes, this word will make some uncomfortable, but this > >> > >> term must be seen as clearly differentiated from the notion of > >> > "submission" > >> > >> which Jessica believes are often conflated. I view "surrender" as > >> > >> Jessica uses the term as an "agentic" act that is ethical. It is an > >> > >> act [or enactment] which is felt as expansive, not as restrictive > >> > >> of > >> > "self" > >> > >> I am going to share a quote from Jessica's paper that she offered > >> > >> to differentiate the palpable difference between "surrender" and > >> > "submission". > >> > >> She is quoting Stephen Mitchell who is a key person in developing > >> > >> relational and hermeneutical psychoanalysis. > >> > >> Mitchell wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> When my older daughter was about two or so, I remember my > >> > >> excitement at the prospect [LP-imaginal] of taking walks with her, > >> > >> given her new ambulatory skills and her intense interest in being > >> outdoors. > >> > >> However, I soon found these walks agonizingly slow. My idea of a > >> > >> walk entailed brisk movement along a road or path. Her idea was > >> > >> quite different. The implication of this difference hit me one day > >> > >> when we encountered a fallen tree on the side of the road.... > >> > >> The rest of the "walk" was spent exploring the fungal and insect > >> > >> life on, under, and around the tree. I remember my sudden > >> > >> realization that these walks would be no fun for me, merely a > >> > >> parental duty, if I held onto my idea of walks. As I was able to > >> > >> give that up and SURRENDER to my daughter's rhythm and focus, a > >> > >> different type of experience opened up to me..... If I had simply > >> > >> RESTRAINED myself out of duty, I would have experienced the walk as > >> > >> a compliance. But I was able to become my daughter's version of a > >> > >> good companion and to find in THAT another way for me to be that > >> > >> took on great personal meaning" [Benjamin, page 26] > >> > >> > >> > >> For Benjamin and Mitchell this quote expresses the principle of > >> > >> necessary asymmetry, by accommodating to the other as a way of > >> > "generating" > >> > >> thirdness. and within the "surrendering" the person is transformed, > >> > >> through opening up to mutual pleasure. > >> > >> > >> > >> Jessica is asking how we distinguish between the compliance of > >> "twoness" > >> > >> from the transformational learning of thirdness. For Jessica the > >> > >> answer is ethical, in the form of reflections on what will create > >> > >> intersubjective connection in our relationship, and through this > >> > >> reflection, opening up to surrender and transformation. This > >> > >> creative enactment expresses agency and is not coerced. It is an > >> > >> ethical response. This "intention" to connect and the resulting > >> > >> self-observation create what Jessical calls "moral thirdness", the > >> > >> connection to a larger expansive connection beyond giver and given > >> > >> to > >> > that is felt as palpably "right". > >> > >> In all Jessica's work she is distinguishing "surrender" from > >> > "submission" > >> > >> [including submitting to an "ideal" of "pure" empathy. which is a > >> > >> denial of self and leads to complimentary doer and done to. > >> > >> > >> > >> For Jessica this moral third space is the space where > >> > >> "self-regulation" and "co-regulation" meet. But that would require > >> > further elaboration. > >> > >> Larry > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > >> > >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>> Larry, > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's > >> > >>> distinction between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I > >> > >>> suspect that both terms might trigger associations for many which > >> > >>> might make them uncomfortable about using them in these ways). > >> > >>> Your observations about possibility > >> > >>> (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and common > >> > >>> experience might contribute to the building of richer and more > >> > >>> extensive possibilities among a community or a group of people who > >> > >>> spend time together (especially 'down' time, when they are more > >> > >>> relaxed and their social guards are down). It is easier and more > >> > agreeable to 'surrender' > >> > >>> into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social > >> > >>> conversation > >> > >> with > >> > >>> no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to > >> > >>> contribute to the co-construction of a third space which is shaped > >> > >>> not so much by > >> > >> the > >> > >>> thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of > >> > >>> interactions between them. This sort of surrendering into a group > >> > >>> feels very different from submitting to the ordered, planned > >> > >>> procedures of a 'getting things done' sort of meeting (though > >> > >>> there is > >> > room for overlap). > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very > >> > >>>> much like > >> > >>> what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when > >> > >>> baby and caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for the > >> > >>> sake of > >> > >> engaging > >> > >>> with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the 'great > >> we'). > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of our > >> > >>> own and other selves moves in and out of this sort of third space. > >> > >>> Vera captured some lovely aspects of this in her book 'Creative > >> > >>> Collaboration' - how > >> > >> the > >> > >>> 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates the > >> > >>> possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> All the best, > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Rod > >> > >>> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >> > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >> > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > >> > >>> Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 > >> > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Rod, I concur with your interpretations. > >> > >>> I would add to your comment: > >> > >>> > >> > >>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to > >> > >>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might help > >> > >>> to remind > >> > >> them > >> > >>> that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what > >> > >>> looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a person! > >> > >>> > >> > >>> The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others > >> > >>> expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's > >> > >>> internalized "scripts". > >> > >>> This is exploring "my" act and your return act. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Third space notions ask or question if there are "intersubjective" > >> > >>> ways > >> > >> to > >> > >>> enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal > >> > >> "potential" > >> > >>> places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not yet > >> > >>> exist but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of > "posse" > >> > >>> [meaning can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a "transformation" > >> > >>> through > >> > >> activities > >> > >>> [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared realm". > >> > >>> > >> > >>> This way of understanding is playing with notions of metaphorical > >> > >>> and imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared > >> > >>> potential spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third > >> > >>> spaces of > >> > >> "possibility" > >> > >>> within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which > >> > >>> things are not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, > >> > >>> categorized, predictable, > >> > >> and > >> > >>> with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". > >> > >>> > >> > >>> What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of > >> "intersubjective" > >> > >>> mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" > >> > >>> to > >> > >> "exist" > >> > >>> in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other > >> > >>> as > >> > >> things > >> > >>> or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced being > >> > >>> reduced by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and > >> > >>> collapses into complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or > >> > >>> "doer > >> > and done to" > >> > >>> Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" and > >> > >>> "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic > "third" > >> > >>> that which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" > >> > >>> The third space must be enacted performed or take action but > >> > >>> moving out from within this imaginal shared space. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" > >> > >>> becoming actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no absolute > >> > >>> freedom fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint > >> fundamentally. > >> > >>> However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal > >> > >>> symbolic shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This > >> > >>> in no way means "submit" > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > >> > >>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly > >> > >>>> conscious of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been > >> > explored. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a > >> > >>>> significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that > >> > >>>> it should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly striking > >> > >>>> example of what we all do every day when we make choices about > >> > >>>> how we will represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of > >> > >>>> clothes, how we do our hair, what we smell like, how we stand and > >> > >>>> walk, how we greet people etc. all play off our knowledge of what > >> > >>>> different choices are likely to be taken to mean (by different > >> > >>>> groups of people). I think this links to what Larry (I think) was > >> > >>>> saying about the concept-y-ness of the context-y environment in > >> > >>>> which babies > >> > play their way into meanings. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to > >> > >>>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might > >> > >>>> help to remind them that things are not simple, categorised and > >> > >>>> predictable - what looks at first like a frail old woman may turn > >> > >>>> out > >> > to be a person! > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised > >> > >>>> cultural knowledge which informs our choices about how we will > >> > >>>> present ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) > >> > >>>> feeling of ease or unease which comes from knowing or not knowing > >> > >>>> how we are 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar context. > >> > >>>> When the rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy > >> > >>>> to join in but when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we > >> > >>>> need to watch from the periphery for a while before we presume to > >> > >>>> know what we are > >> > doing. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> All the best, > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> Rod > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >> > >>>> From: > >> > >>>> xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> > >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees > >> =plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd. > >> > >>>> edu > >> > >>>> ] > >> > >>>> On Behalf Of Larry Purss > >> > >>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 > >> > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> Mike, > >> > >>>> You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and > >> > >>>> social emotions are intimately involved along with other > "musical" > >> > >>>> rhythmic modalities. > >> > >>>> Thought and language and the figural within enactments > >> > >>>> [performances] > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to say > >> > >>>> it is a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want to > >> > >>>> explore what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" > >> > >>>> and cognitive enactment of using the staff rather than a cane in > >> > >>>> setting > >> > the "scene" > >> > >>>> The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring > >> > >>>> enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the > >> > >>>> "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a > >> > >>>> more > >> > >>> metaphorical enactment. > >> > >>>> Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? Or > >> > >>>> is the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being > >> > >>>> in the world as "possibility". > >> > >>>> In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a > >> > >>>> "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted > >> > >>>> brings > >> > >>> into "actuality" > >> > >>>> the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a > >> > >>>> possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric person > >> > >>>> and enacting this alternative possible "scene". > >> > >>>> The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable > >> > >>>> felt experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" > >> > >>>> and becomes "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff over > >> > >>>> a cane was acting from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is > this > >> "place" > >> > >>>> internal or > >> > >>> external? > >> > >>>> or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet > >> exist? > >> > >>>> Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] > >> > >>>> presence [both internal imagining and external performances] > >> > >>>> there are always palpable felt experiences and every > >> > >>>> "interpretation" is guided by these multi-modal ways of > >> understanding. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" > >> > >>>> and "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and > >> > >>>> palpable felt experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal > >> > >>>> symbolic dimension as "potential" or "transitional" spaces > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third > >> > >>>> spaces is there embodied presence and there witnessing quality > >> > >>>> which is often marginalized or disowned when we privilege a > >> > >>>> particular "type" of rationality and thinking. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of > >> > >>>> "third > >> > >>> spaces" > >> > >>>> is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is > >> > >>>> included and who is excluded. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole > wrote: > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>>> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot > >> > >>>>> about what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of thirdness > >> > >>>>> that I think links to what is being said here. Straighten me out > >> > >>>>> if I am wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its > >> interesting!). > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate of > >> > >>>>> my wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in > >> > >>>>> ill health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her > >> years. > >> > >>>>> Balance is an issue for her. > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed > >> > >>>>> that she was carrying a large staff. > >> > >>>>> I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like > Gandalf! > >> > >>>>> and gave her a big hug." > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a > >> > >>>>> cane, she lost the invisibility created by old age and she > >> > >>>>> became a perons to others. People constantly started up > >> > >>>>> conversations with her and, being a skilled conversationalist > >> > >>>>> interested in people, it made her feel like a whole person. > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or > >> > >>>>> (?) a > >> > >>> tool? > >> > >>>>> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved as > >> > >> well. > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> mike > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> mike > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>> wrote: > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>>> Miguel, Rod, > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>>>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the > >> > >>>>>> other thread exploring "laws" of history and writing systems. I > >> > >>>>>> see these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" that > >> > >>>>>> contrast with > >> > >>>> "twoness" > >> > >>>>>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or knower > >> > >>>>>> and > >> > >>>>> learner, > >> > >>>>>> etc.] > >> > >>>>>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term "baby > >> > >>>>> watcher's I > >> > >>>>>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one > >> > >>>>>> stream in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan > >> > >>>>>> privileges language in his notion of thirdness. There is also > >> > >>>>>> the work of Stolorow Atwood, and Donna Orange, [intersubjective > >> > >>>>>> psychodynamics] who do not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a > >> > >>>>>> developmental achievement as bothDaniel Stern > >> > >>>>> and > >> > >>>>>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > >> > >>>>>> In Jessica's words: > >> > >>>>>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other > >> > >>>>>> as growing naturally out of the experience of being recognized > >> > >>>>>> by the other, as a crucial component of attachment responses > >> > >>>>>> that require mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, > >> > >>>>>> as ultimately a > >> > >>>> pleasure and not a chore" > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>>>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" and > >> > >>>>>> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and rhythmicity. > >> > >>>>>> My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and > >> > >>>>>> rhythmicity] are felt to be > >> > >>>>> in > >> > >>>>>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when > >> > >>>>>> there are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the > >> > >>>>>> way to understanding > >> > >>>>> we > >> > >>>>>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as our > >> > >>>>>> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and felt > >> > >>>> experience. > >> > >>>>>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the > >> > >>>>>> "struggle for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" > >> and "thirdness" > >> > >>>>>> Her > >> > >>>>> project > >> > >>>>>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a model > >> > >>>>>> for expressing this struggle for recognition. > >> > >>>>>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle > >> > >>>>>> for recognition is through a developmental trajectory of > >> > >>>>>> intersubjective development of thirdness. > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>>>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through > >> > >>>>>> privileging sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased to > >> come to "know" > >> > >>>>>> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation > >> > >>>>>> as this analytic kernel > >> > >>>>> is > >> > >>>>>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are > >> > >>>>>> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated by > >> > >>>>>> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of > >> "seeing" > >> > >>>> [with the mind's eye?]. > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>>>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a > >> > >>>>>> father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it > >> > >>>>>> gestures to another > >> > >>>>> dimension, > >> > >>>>>> another quality of thirdness as embodied > enactments/performances. > >> > >>>>>> I > >> > >>>>> would > >> > >>>>>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" can > >> > >>>>>> offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied > >> > >>>>>> hearing the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would emphasize > >> > >>>>>> your notion of > >> > >>>>> "intersecting" > >> > >>>>>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" > >> > >>>>>> [across > >> > >>>>> verses] > >> > >>>>>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>>>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other forms > >> > >>>>>> of > >> > >>>>> learning > >> > >>>>>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y > >> > >>>>>> ways of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality of > >> > >>>>>> concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize the > >> > >>>>>> children were able to join > >> > >>>>> in > >> > >>>>>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be > >> > >>>>>> able to > >> > >>>>> explain > >> > >>>>>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" > >> > >>>>>> or > >> > >>>>> "context" > >> > >>>>>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed and > >> > >>>>>> historically situated. > >> > >>>>>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, > >> > >>>>>> Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are > >> > >>>>>> indicating is the > >> > >>>>> centrality > >> > >>>>>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also > >> > >>>>>> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and > >> worlds. > >> > >>>>>> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and this > >> > >>>>>> does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical quality, > >> > >>>>>> and a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply > >> > >>>>>> concept-y and > >> > >>>>> institutionalized > >> > >>>>>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we > >> > >>>>>> ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>>>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > >> > >>>>>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically > >> > >>>>>> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third > >> spaces" > >> > >>>>>> AS potentially liberating contexts. > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>>>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two > >> > >>>>>> basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's project > >> > >>>>>> is to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal in > >> > >>>>>> understanding the notion > >> > >>>>> of > >> > >>>>>> "recognition". > >> > >>>>>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer > >> > >>>>>> and done > >> > >>>>> to > >> > >>>>>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable > >> "witnessing" > >> > >>>>> within > >> > >>>>>> thirdness. > >> > >>>>>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> -- > >> > >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science > >> > >>>>> as an object that creates history. 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Nothing in this > >> > email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services > >> > unless accompanied by an official order form. > >> > > >> > > >> ________________________________ > >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > >> > >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > for > >> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > >> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > >> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > it. > >> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > >> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > >> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > accepts > >> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan > emails > >> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > responsibility > >> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > >> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless > accompanied > >> by an official order form. > >> > >> > > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Jan 21 09:59:56 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 09:59:56 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> <001701d034b2$3b06d170$b1147450$@terra.com.br> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022930B3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102293237@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102293642@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Larry-- Maybe we can enact that zone, as in the case my elderly friend, by incorporating a strategically useful object into our actions. Instead of a staff (which was both a need tool for walking and a symbol that "re-triangulated" her with with the social world. Phillip noted that in choosing the staff, my friend was also choosing to resist/reject her positioning by others. Yes indeed. The mediators we choose to use when we have a choice, seems to me, always imply rejection of the things not chosen... although, were the goals of action different, they might be, as they say, very handy. mike On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > Rod, > I am in full agreement with what you have written. The "watching" stance > [observational stance] [spectator stance] ia the exact opposite of what I > wanted to portray. I will drop the term "baby watching" > > The term "third space" also can be questioned and the term "zone of > mediation" or mediated zone could be used. The question becoming when is > this "zone" have a felt sense of "doer and done to as a complimentary zone > of learning, and when can we reflectively enact a mediated zone. The > question who "perceives" in this way are persons who are searching [and > creating] alternative approaches beyond being spectators. > > Play also can be considered turn taking [my turn your turn, each person > playing] and alternatively as "surrendering" to the play or being carried > along "within" the play. > > There is a difference in how participation is "felt" or affected. > > On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 1:19 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > Larry, > > > > I have to apologise again for dipping back in to this conversation when I > > don't really have time to engage fully with what you have written but I > > just wanted to throw in my unease about the term 'baby watching'. After > > reading Vasu Reddy and others on second person perspective I am much more > > aware of the importance of the difference between 'watching' from outside > > an interaction (a third-person, spectator perspective) and engaging IN an > > interaction - as Reddy puts this, the difference between how it feels > when > > you see someone smiling at someone else and when you see someone smiling > at > > YOU. While we can learn a lot about interaction from very close, careful > > watching of how babies and partners move in response to each other it is > > also important to recognise how much more is available when we are IN > > interaction with another person. I think the palpable, embodied FEEL of > > interaction is primary - babies can FEEL the difference between > > sympathetically contingent, attentive and attuned response and less > > co-regulated forms of interaction before they are able to have any sort > of > > conception of another person as another person with whom they are > > interacting. Seeing the feeling is not quite the same as feeling the > > feeling! > > > > Also, quickly, the adult's marking of an accentuated response is also, > > surely, a form of pedagogy, demonstrating an active interest in the > > interests of the baby. > > > > All the best, > > > > Rod > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > > Sent: 21 January 2015 05:03 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > > > Rod, > > Another aspect of the notion of asymmetrical "marking" as understood > within > > reflective internalized thirdness is the way it can be understood by > > clarifying how Jessica understands the notion of "equality". > > Jessica writes: > > > > "Symmetry is a crucial part of what unites the pair in complimentarity, > the > > takes-one-to-know-one recognition feature of the doer/done to relation > .... > > In effect, it builds on the deep structure of mirroring and affective > > matching that operates [largely procedurally and out of awareness] in any > > dyad, when both partners glare at each other or interrupt in unison. In > > such interactions, we can see the underlying symmetry that characterizes > > the apparent opposition of power relations: each feels unable to gain the > > other's recognition, and each feels in the other's power. > > > > In other words, the asymmetrical notion of "marking" which facilitates > > "third space" requires in Jessica's understanding reflective "surrender" > > as facilitated by an internal symbolic cultural historical "third > > space". This space is an imaginal metaphorical "as if" space of possible > > and potential "enactments" and "witnessing". However underlying this > > symbolic space is the necessity of rhythmic attunement [accommodation] > AND > > asymmetrical marking [differentiation]. > > > > Jessica's understanding of the development of creative "freedom" > expresses > > a distinctive sociality of freedom that involves one subject facilitating > > the freedom of another through witnessing and hearing the other into > > voice. However I am suggesting by acting this way [surrendering to the > > third space] that this is an agentic act, not passive but active. > Surrender > > as Jessica understands the term is a possible answer to relations of > > domination. A generative as well as generous way of facilitating the > > development of intersubjective sociality. > > > > I was intrigued when I read Peg's response discussing appropriation and > > misappropriation: Peg wrote" > > > > "Here, the old lady uses her "mis-appropriation" within an act of > > transformation. With children, teachers or parents or other elders, may > > mis-appropriate children's play -- having children trot or canter or > > gallup into the classroom as a way to engage them in a transition > between > > space or activity. What's different? Well I'm teasing myself with the > > notion of "second order" -- for the old lady there's extra consciousness > > and that "extra" bit is acted by the adult in the case of the children." > > > > Peg's reflection on second order "extra" consciousness. THAT "extra bit" > > that is acted by the adult may overlap with Jessica's notion of the > > "symbolic metaphorical space of thirdness from within which one acts. > > What's different" I return to Miguel's comment questioning if there are > > subject-object performances which are distinct from intersubjective > > subject-subject enactments. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Larry Purss > > wrote: > > > > > Rod > > > I would say that Jessica would fully endorse this understanding of > using > > > internalized thirdness. as a "reflective" space. This is the aspect of > > > thirdness that she refers to as the "symbolic third "[ a metaphorical > > space > > > of ?s if""perceiving the world through a sociocultural filter. > > > Your focussing on the centrality of "marking"I would suggest has been > > > deeply explored by Fonagy and Gergley in there re-searching ""affect > > > regulation. > > > Whether others agree or question Jessica's notions of ?ntersubjective > > > third space"[aspects of attunement, differentiation, and symbolic > thirds] > > > as a mediating environment, the focus on "marking" contrasted with > > matching > > > or mirroring] is a profound insight and notions of "self-regulation" > can > > be > > > expanded by the understanding of affect regulation through asymmetrical > > > "marking" > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > > >> I have had to read hastily, Larry and I am not at all sure that I have > > >> followed you and Jessica Benjamin through the psychoanalytical > accounts > > of > > >> intersubjectivity but I wanted to pick up on her point about the > > 'marking' > > >> of the mother's response to a baby's distress (not simply mirroring > this > > >> back in the same form as it came from the baby). The mother/parent is > > >> perhaps able to use an internalised thirdness to see the (future) > > >> autonomous self in the actions of the baby, perceiving these through a > > >> sociocultural filter and responding 'as if' the baby was already a > (more > > >> competent) social agent - or perhaps it is more that the parent > > responds as > > >> if the interaction is already such as is had between enculturated > > agents - > > >> moving into a third space into which the baby is also drawn. > > >> > > >> Rod > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > > >> Sent: 20 January 2015 15:41 > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > >> > > >> Rod, > > >> Yes, and the surrender she is exploring is of the intersubjective type > > >> [subject subject complimentarity transformed. This is in contrast to > > >> submission as a relation in which some "one" [person or "idea" is > > >> "dominant" and privileged such a patriarchal father,] To sub-mit for > > >> Jessica enacts some "one" is "over"-seeing. > > >> > > >> In her example of the walk with the two year old, if this walk > becomes > > >> "duty" through an act of self- assertion or self-regulation this duty > > >> becomes some"thing" which the parent submits to and there is no > longer > > a > > >> sense of mutual intersubjective delight in surrendering to the "third" > > that > > >> mutual potential space. > > >> Jessica describes this tension between subjective complimentary > twoness > > >> [i.e. patriarchal father as over lord] and the who submits to the > "one" > > >> [person or ideal] AND intersubjective "thirdness" as a tension which > > will > > >> never be dialectically resolved. Thirdness will always rupture and > need > > >> repair. Jessica's is a "moral" third and is a developmental > > "achievement". > > >> It requires first having participated and been "held" or "witnessed" > > >> within palpable felt experience which creates a thirdness of > > >> intersubjective attunement. This is "accommodation". > > >> > > >> The mother's gestures must be "marked" to the rhythm of the babies > moods > > >> and affect as attunement to a rhythmic "dance". This is the context or > > ZPD > > >> in which "differentiation" from fusion within "oneness" occurs. > > >> > > >> This intersubjective model recognizes that this type of developmental > > >> "learning" must be co-created and requires the "symbolic" third which > > >> explores as metaphorical enactments of (a)symmetry. The parent must > act > > >> from within "reflective" presence enacting the third by "morally" > > >> surrendering to the rhythm or musical patterning using cultural > > >> historical tools and understandings. > > >> > > >> I read Jessica as "seeing through" the historical constellation of two > > >> independent subjectivie standpoints in relations of complimentarity > and > > >> one is "over" and the other "under" in relations of domination. > > >> Submitting to a fundamental already known "one" is not intersubjective > > >> asymmetrical enactments which call forth surrender of the person > through > > >> rhythmical attunements to the other as the "basis" for differentiation > > of > > >> the two subjectivities through the moral reflections of the care > giver. > > >> > > >> This model understands maturity as the care giver having her own > > >> subjectivity and "twoness" and "thirdness" are never resolved or > > >> transcended . They co-exist and the care giver must develop the > > capacity or > > >> disposition for co-creating attuned, differentiated, and symbolic > > >> thirdness. What Jessica is suggesting is this process collapses into > > >> complimentary doer and done to without the recognition this is > > continually > > >> co-created "MORAL" thirdness that intentionally resists either/or > > >> enactments which demand patriarchical recognition and the other must > in > > >> duty submit > > >> > > >> The tension is never overcome and it is inevitable that thirdness will > > >> collapse into twoness. This will be felt as a loss of thirdness and > the > > >> moral struggle is through reflection for the more mature one to > > >> re-establish thirdness through recognition that the thirdness shifted > > >> towards self-assertive twoness. It takes the commitment for the person > > in > > >> the lead to recognize he/she returned to "twoness" and caused a > rupture > > and > > >> to sincerely communicate this "truth" to the other participant(s) so > the > > >> felt inevitable disregulation can be validated as a felt truth. > > >> This acknowledge is capable of reopening this space of thirdness, this > > >> metaphorical space of potentiality and possibility. > > >> > > >> This model is "intersubjective" not subjective Larry > > >> > > >> > > >> On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 5:23 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > >> > > >> > But Benjamin would argue that this is surrender (jointly giving up a > > >> > focus on self in order to focus on a shared 'third' space of > > >> > relationship) rather than submission (losing self in/to the > > >> relationship). > > >> > > > >> > Bartels and Zeki (The neural correlates of maternal and romantic > love, > > >> > Neuroimage, 2004, 21, 1155-66) suggest that love is associated with > a > > >> > reduction of activity in parts of the brain associated with social > > >> > evaluation - so love is, in some respects, blind and lovers (of > their > > >> > own babies or of romantic partners) may be more willing to surrender > > >> > despite what others might see as flaws in the objects of their love! > > >> > > > >> > All the best, > > >> > > > >> > Rod > > >> > > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > >> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > >> > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Maria Judith Sucupira > > da > > >> > Costa Lins > > >> > Sent: 20 January 2015 13:09 > > >> > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > > >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > >> > > > >> > Submission is presente also in true love. > > >> > maria > > >> > > > >> > -----Mensagem original----- > > >> > De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > >> > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] Em nome de HENRY SHONERD Enviada > em: > > >> > segunda-feira, 19 de janeiro de 2015 22:39 > > >> > Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> > Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > >> > > > >> > Larry, > > >> > Do you think it?s sad-masochistic of me to suggest that we give > > >> > submission a chance? Unanalyzed, ?submission?, not even a suggestion > > >> > of a hyphen, as a juicy chunk, I think of Islam, or what I know of > it > > >> > through a hodge podge of media and friendships. But break it down, > > >> > without even going to the dictionary, ?sub-mission? has the ring of > > >> > commitment to a project. As a legal term, my dictionary has > > >> > ?submission? as ?an agreement between parties involved in a > dispute?. > > >> > Here?s more from the semantic cluster: A synonym for ?submission? is > > >> > ?yield?, from the Middle English. It?s worth mashing up latinate and > > >> > germanic etymology and morphology to set up mnemonics for the > > >> > discourse. So, when, if ever, is it good to ?submit?, ?give in?? I > > >> > submit to the good will of la gente of this chat. There?s gotta be > > >> > respect and trust. Among other things, that means it has to be > > >> > voluntary and de buena voluntad. And transparent? Let me suggest a > > >> > prototypical narr ative of > > >> > submission: Motherhood. Giving birth and all of that jazz. > Creativity > > >> > with a capital ?C?. Here?s another: death. Everything in between is > up > > >> > for grabs I guess. Probably lots of diversity as they say in the > game. > > >> > Please, chatters, don?t feel the need to respond. I?ll take silence > as > > >> good sign. > > >> > Like, you?re listening politely. > > >> > Submissively > > >> > Henry > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On Jan 19, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Larry Purss > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > Rod, > > >> > > In the spirit of your caution and acknowledging its truth value, I > > >> > > want to say I was hesitant to use the term "surrender" for how it > > >> > > would be misunderstood. In a similar way to the misunderstandings > > >> > > of the term "mind". > > >> > > > > >> > > I will mention that Jessica is consciously using the word > > "surrender" > > >> > > as NOT "submission" as she tries to articulate a nypothesis that > > >> > > sees through "domination" and the struggle to the death of > > >> > > complimentary > > >> > "recognition" > > >> > > I fully expect Jessica's work to instigate passionate responses. > > >> > > Her work does develop from Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer, Fromm and > > >> > > the Frankfurt school. > > >> > > Jessica says we have conflated "surrender" with "submission" and > > >> > > Jessica's use of the term "surrender" must be seen as being > engaged > > >> > > in exploring [and putting in play] notions of instrumental > > >> > > internalized "self-regulation" AND notions of the "third space" as > > >> > > coming into being through "surrender" to a place of potentiality > and > > >> > > possibility > > >> > that is moving "beyond" > > >> > > self-assertion as a complimentary struggle to the death. > > >> > > > > >> > > Rod, the play of "active" and "receptive" thirds [in contrast to > > >> > > active and passive twoness] is the place which Jessica is inviting > > >> > > us to > > >> > occupy. > > >> > > > > >> > > Notions of "surrender" carry huge baggage and and will invite > > >> > > palpable rejection as concepts. This is a fact. It is challenging > > >> > > particular notions of "subjective" and "intersubjective" > > >> > > However, if we begin within a dialogical awareness and acknowledge > > >> > > that using a term such as "surrender" will be read by most and > > >> > > rejected as implying "submission" and "domination" and > "passivity" > > >> > > and "loosing the self", then the process that you and I are > engaged > > >> > > in at this moment is the hermeneutical enactment of > differentiating > > >> > > and "marking" the distinctions the distinctions between > "surrender" > > >> > > and "submission" Jessica is asking us to pause and be reflective > and > > >> > consider this distinction. > > >> > > > > >> > > Rod, Jessica is working within a "tradition" [the Frankfurt School > > >> > > where she is in dialogue with Hegel, Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer. > > >> > > Her project is to "see through" the patterns of complimentary > > >> "twoness" > > >> > > [doer and done to giver and given to]. The term "surrender" is > being > > >> > > used within this tradition. > > >> > > > > >> > > This term "surrender" [as exemplified in Stephen Mitchell's story > of > > >> > > letting go of his "idea" of "a walk" to enter his daughter's > > >> > > enactment of "a walk" is central to Jessica's notion of > > >> > > living-in-truth. Yes, it invites further dialogue and will be > > >> > > misunderstood. It requires further dialogue. > > >> > > > > >> > > I could have tried to write an essay fully outlining the term > > >> "surrender" > > >> > > This word has sparked considerable response within the tradition > of > > >> > > feminism. I could also she it being challenged as Eurocentric or > too > > >> > > psychological [emphasizing both accommodation and > differentiation]. > > >> > > > > >> > > Posting to the listserve and inviting commentary and further > > >> > > questions on the term "surrender" is another approach. > > >> > > > > >> > > I also hoped to find a "bridge" to Kris' understanding of "third > > >> > > space" and her exploration of intersubjective testimonio as hybrid > > >> > > co-creative mutual rhythmic patterns forming within third spaces. > I > > >> > > see a quality of "surrender" [as Jessica uses the term] in Kris' > > >> > > exploration of third spaces. > > >> > > > > >> > > Vygotsky explores internalized "self-regulation" as a > developmental > > >> task. > > >> > > Jessica suggests the development of self regulation moves through > > >> > > asymmetrical accommodation AND differentiation. For Jessica this > > >> > > psychological development [if it is to form third spaces] requires > > >> > > asymmetrical agentic active "surrender" as a way beyond a struggle > > >> > > to the death of complimentary twoness. > > >> > > In summary, I understand Jessica's work as an aspect of cultural > > >> > > historical understanding, that includes social theory of emotions > > >> > > and cognition and culture that is historical. > > >> > > The term "surrender" is a discursive and dialogical form of > > enactment. > > >> > > It was offered in the spirit of open ended dialogue but I was > aware > > >> > > and took a chance in using the word "surrender" Another word > would > > >> > > have been less controversial but I do question if being > > >> > > misunderstood and then requiring further clarification is an > > >> approach with some value. > > >> > > > > >> > > I do not intend the use of "surrender" as an alternative approach > to > > >> > > cultural historical theory. > > >> > > The use of this term is meant in a spirit of dialogue and the > > "piety" > > >> > > of questions inviting answers. > > >> > > Rod, in the way I presented the term "surrender", I may have > > >> > > elaborated further, and clarified more, but I was not sure if > there > > >> > > were others who shared an interest in this topic of complimentary > > >> > > twoness and co-creative thirdness. I was interested in going > deeper > > >> > > into understanding "third spaces" and by posting was feeling my > way > > >> > > in by probing the level of interest. > > >> > > > > >> > > Larry > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > >> > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > >> Larry, > > >> > >> As I said, I like Benjamin's distinction between surrender and > > >> > >> submission but I also think that it is not so simple to introduce > > >> > >> new shadings of meaning to a word/concept which is already part > of > > >> > >> people's vocabulary. For most people, outside the group of those > > >> > >> who know about Benjamin's work, surrender WILL still carry felt > > >> > >> associations with unwillingly giving up ownership or control of > > >> > >> something prized/valued. This is bound to result in > > >> > >> miscommunication unless those who use surrender in its new sense > > >> > >> signal and explain this use. I think an awareness of how we can > > >> > >> expect others to react (body, mind and soul) is a core aspect of > > >> > >> communication and ethical behaviour. We can't just occupy that > > >> > >> third space and expect others to > > >> > surrender to the meanings we want to introduce! > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Rod > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Sent from my Windows Phone > > >> > >> ________________________________ > > >> > >> From: Larry Purss > > >> > >> Sent: 19/01/2015 01:29 > > >> > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Miguel, > > >> > >> The article I have been referencing is from Jessica Benjamin's > > >> > >> article "Beyond Doer and Done To: An Intersubjective View of > > >> > >> Thirdness" There is an extensive bibliography . Interestingly > > >> > >> Jessica's dissertation was written in 1978 with the title, > > >> > "Internalization and Instrumental Culture: > > >> > >> A Reinterpretation of Psychoanalysis and Social Theory" > > >> > >> Rod, > > >> > >> Jessica references Colwyn Trevarthen as a source of her notion of > > >> > >> "surrender". Yes, this word will make some uncomfortable, but > this > > >> > >> term must be seen as clearly differentiated from the notion of > > >> > "submission" > > >> > >> which Jessica believes are often conflated. I view "surrender" as > > >> > >> Jessica uses the term as an "agentic" act that is ethical. It is > an > > >> > >> act [or enactment] which is felt as expansive, not as restrictive > > >> > >> of > > >> > "self" > > >> > >> I am going to share a quote from Jessica's paper that she offered > > >> > >> to differentiate the palpable difference between "surrender" and > > >> > "submission". > > >> > >> She is quoting Stephen Mitchell who is a key person in developing > > >> > >> relational and hermeneutical psychoanalysis. > > >> > >> Mitchell wrote: > > >> > >> > > >> > >> When my older daughter was about two or so, I remember my > > >> > >> excitement at the prospect [LP-imaginal] of taking walks with > her, > > >> > >> given her new ambulatory skills and her intense interest in being > > >> outdoors. > > >> > >> However, I soon found these walks agonizingly slow. My idea of a > > >> > >> walk entailed brisk movement along a road or path. Her idea was > > >> > >> quite different. The implication of this difference hit me one > day > > >> > >> when we encountered a fallen tree on the side of the road.... > > >> > >> The rest of the "walk" was spent exploring the fungal and insect > > >> > >> life on, under, and around the tree. I remember my sudden > > >> > >> realization that these walks would be no fun for me, merely a > > >> > >> parental duty, if I held onto my idea of walks. As I was able to > > >> > >> give that up and SURRENDER to my daughter's rhythm and focus, a > > >> > >> different type of experience opened up to me..... If I had > simply > > >> > >> RESTRAINED myself out of duty, I would have experienced the walk > as > > >> > >> a compliance. But I was able to become my daughter's version of > a > > >> > >> good companion and to find in THAT another way for me to be that > > >> > >> took on great personal meaning" [Benjamin, page 26] > > >> > >> > > >> > >> For Benjamin and Mitchell this quote expresses the principle of > > >> > >> necessary asymmetry, by accommodating to the other as a way of > > >> > "generating" > > >> > >> thirdness. and within the "surrendering" the person is > transformed, > > >> > >> through opening up to mutual pleasure. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Jessica is asking how we distinguish between the compliance of > > >> "twoness" > > >> > >> from the transformational learning of thirdness. For Jessica the > > >> > >> answer is ethical, in the form of reflections on what will create > > >> > >> intersubjective connection in our relationship, and through this > > >> > >> reflection, opening up to surrender and transformation. This > > >> > >> creative enactment expresses agency and is not coerced. It is an > > >> > >> ethical response. This "intention" to connect and the resulting > > >> > >> self-observation create what Jessical calls "moral thirdness", > the > > >> > >> connection to a larger expansive connection beyond giver and > given > > >> > >> to > > >> > that is felt as palpably "right". > > >> > >> In all Jessica's work she is distinguishing "surrender" from > > >> > "submission" > > >> > >> [including submitting to an "ideal" of "pure" empathy. which is a > > >> > >> denial of self and leads to complimentary doer and done to. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> For Jessica this moral third space is the space where > > >> > >> "self-regulation" and "co-regulation" meet. But that would > require > > >> > further elaboration. > > >> > >> Larry > > >> > >> > > >> > >> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > >> > >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > >> > >> > > >> > >>> Larry, > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's > > >> > >>> distinction between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I > > >> > >>> suspect that both terms might trigger associations for many > which > > >> > >>> might make them uncomfortable about using them in these ways). > > >> > >>> Your observations about possibility > > >> > >>> (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and > common > > >> > >>> experience might contribute to the building of richer and more > > >> > >>> extensive possibilities among a community or a group of people > who > > >> > >>> spend time together (especially 'down' time, when they are more > > >> > >>> relaxed and their social guards are down). It is easier and more > > >> > agreeable to 'surrender' > > >> > >>> into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social > > >> > >>> conversation > > >> > >> with > > >> > >>> no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to > > >> > >>> contribute to the co-construction of a third space which is > shaped > > >> > >>> not so much by > > >> > >> the > > >> > >>> thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of > > >> > >>> interactions between them. This sort of surrendering into a > group > > >> > >>> feels very different from submitting to the ordered, planned > > >> > >>> procedures of a 'getting things done' sort of meeting (though > > >> > >>> there is > > >> > room for overlap). > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>>> From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very > > >> > >>>> much like > > >> > >>> what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when > > >> > >>> baby and caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for > the > > >> > >>> sake of > > >> > >> engaging > > >> > >>> with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the 'great > > >> we'). > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of our > > >> > >>> own and other selves moves in and out of this sort of third > space. > > >> > >>> Vera captured some lovely aspects of this in her book 'Creative > > >> > >>> Collaboration' - how > > >> > >> the > > >> > >>> 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates > the > > >> > >>> possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> All the best, > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Rod > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >> > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > >> > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > > >> > >>> Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 > > >> > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Rod, I concur with your interpretations. > > >> > >>> I would add to your comment: > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to > > >> > >>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might > help > > >> > >>> to remind > > >> > >> them > > >> > >>> that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what > > >> > >>> looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a > person! > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of others > > >> > >>> expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's > > >> > >>> internalized "scripts". > > >> > >>> This is exploring "my" act and your return act. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Third space notions ask or question if there are > "intersubjective" > > >> > >>> ways > > >> > >> to > > >> > >>> enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic imaginal > > >> > >> "potential" > > >> > >>> places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not > yet > > >> > >>> exist but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of > > "posse" > > >> > >>> [meaning can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a > "transformation" > > >> > >>> through > > >> > >> activities > > >> > >>> [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared > realm". > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> This way of understanding is playing with notions of > metaphorical > > >> > >>> and imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared > > >> > >>> potential spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third > > >> > >>> spaces of > > >> > >> "possibility" > > >> > >>> within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which > > >> > >>> things are not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, > > >> > >>> categorized, predictable, > > >> > >> and > > >> > >>> with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of > > >> "intersubjective" > > >> > >>> mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between "surrendering" > > >> > >>> to > > >> > >> "exist" > > >> > >>> in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. [other > > >> > >>> as > > >> > >> things > > >> > >>> or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced > being > > >> > >>> reduced by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and > > >> > >>> collapses into complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or > > >> > >>> "doer > > >> > and done to" > > >> > >>> Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" > and > > >> > >>> "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic > > "third" > > >> > >>> that which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" > > >> > >>> The third space must be enacted performed or take action but > > >> > >>> moving out from within this imaginal shared space. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" > > >> > >>> becoming actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no > absolute > > >> > >>> freedom fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint > > >> fundamentally. > > >> > >>> However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal > > >> > >>> symbolic shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" This > > >> > >>> in no way means "submit" > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > >> > >>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>>> I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly > > >> > >>>> conscious of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has been > > >> > explored. > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a > > >> > >>>> significance because it plays off the cultural expectation that > > >> > >>>> it should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly > striking > > >> > >>>> example of what we all do every day when we make choices about > > >> > >>>> how we will represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of > > >> > >>>> clothes, how we do our hair, what we smell like, how we stand > and > > >> > >>>> walk, how we greet people etc. all play off our knowledge of > what > > >> > >>>> different choices are likely to be taken to mean (by different > > >> > >>>> groups of people). I think this links to what Larry (I think) > was > > >> > >>>> saying about the concept-y-ness of the context-y environment in > > >> > >>>> which babies > > >> > play their way into meanings. > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to > > >> > >>>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might > > >> > >>>> help to remind them that things are not simple, categorised and > > >> > >>>> predictable - what looks at first like a frail old woman may > turn > > >> > >>>> out > > >> > to be a person! > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised > > >> > >>>> cultural knowledge which informs our choices about how we will > > >> > >>>> present ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the (palpable) > > >> > >>>> feeling of ease or unease which comes from knowing or not > knowing > > >> > >>>> how we are 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar > context. > > >> > >>>> When the rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is easy > > >> > >>>> to join in but when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we > > >> > >>>> need to watch from the periphery for a while before we presume > to > > >> > >>>> know what we are > > >> > doing. > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> All the best, > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> Rod > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > >> > >>>> From: > > >> > >>>> xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >> > >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees > > >> =plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd. > > >> > >>>> edu > > >> > >>>> ] > > >> > >>>> On Behalf Of Larry Purss > > >> > >>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 > > >> > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> Mike, > > >> > >>>> You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and > > >> > >>>> social emotions are intimately involved along with other > > "musical" > > >> > >>>> rhythmic modalities. > > >> > >>>> Thought and language and the figural within enactments > > >> > >>>> [performances] > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to > say > > >> > >>>> it is a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I want > to > > >> > >>>> explore what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the "symbolic" > > >> > >>>> and cognitive enactment of using the staff rather than a cane > in > > >> > >>>> setting > > >> > the "scene" > > >> > >>>> The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is exploring > > >> > >>>> enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is the > > >> > >>>> "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is it a > > >> > >>>> more > > >> > >>> metaphorical enactment. > > >> > >>>> Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? > Or > > >> > >>>> is the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining being > > >> > >>>> in the world as "possibility". > > >> > >>>> In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a > > >> > >>>> "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when enacted > > >> > >>>> brings > > >> > >>> into "actuality" > > >> > >>>> the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as a > > >> > >>>> possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric > person > > >> > >>>> and enacting this alternative possible "scene". > > >> > >>>> The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses palpable > > >> > >>>> felt experience. In the enactment the possible becomes "actual" > > >> > >>>> and becomes "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff > over > > >> > >>>> a cane was acting from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is > > this > > >> "place" > > >> > >>>> internal or > > >> > >>> external? > > >> > >>>> or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not yet > > >> exist? > > >> > >>>> Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] > > >> > >>>> presence [both internal imagining and external performances] > > >> > >>>> there are always palpable felt experiences and every > > >> > >>>> "interpretation" is guided by these multi-modal ways of > > >> understanding. > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> Third spaces as ways of understanding explore "self-regulation" > > >> > >>>> and "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and > > >> > >>>> palpable felt experience. I am also emphasizing their imaginal > > >> > >>>> symbolic dimension as "potential" or "transitional" spaces > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third > > >> > >>>> spaces is there embodied presence and there witnessing quality > > >> > >>>> which is often marginalized or disowned when we privilege a > > >> > >>>> particular "type" of rationality and thinking. > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of > > >> > >>>> "third > > >> > >>> spaces" > > >> > >>>> is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is > > >> > >>>> included and who is excluded. > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole > > wrote: > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>>> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot > > >> > >>>>> about what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of > thirdness > > >> > >>>>> that I think links to what is being said here. Straighten me > out > > >> > >>>>> if I am wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but its > > >> interesting!). > > >> > >>>>> > > >> > >>>>> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college classmate > of > > >> > >>>>> my wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been in > > >> > >>>>> ill health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her > > >> years. > > >> > >>>>> Balance is an issue for her. > > >> > >>>>> > > >> > >>>>> When I first saw her the other day after many years I noticed > > >> > >>>>> that she was carrying a large staff. > > >> > >>>>> I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like > > Gandalf! > > >> > >>>>> and gave her a big hug." > > >> > >>>>> > > >> > >>>>> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead of a > > >> > >>>>> cane, she lost the invisibility created by old age and she > > >> > >>>>> became a perons to others. People constantly started up > > >> > >>>>> conversations with her and, being a skilled conversationalist > > >> > >>>>> interested in people, it made her feel like a whole person. > > >> > >>>>> > > >> > >>>>> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign or > > >> > >>>>> (?) a > > >> > >>> tool? > > >> > >>>>> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow involved > as > > >> > >> well. > > >> > >>>>> > > >> > >>>>> mike > > >> > >>>>> > > >> > >>>>> mike > > >> > >>>>> > > >> > >>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss > > >> > >>>>> > > >> > >>>> wrote: > > >> > >>>>> > > >> > >>>>>> Miguel, Rod, > > >> > >>>>>> > > >> > >>>>>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the > > >> > >>>>>> other thread exploring "laws" of history and writing > systems. I > > >> > >>>>>> see these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" > that > > >> > >>>>>> contrast with > > >> > >>>> "twoness" > > >> > >>>>>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or > knower > > >> > >>>>>> and > > >> > >>>>> learner, > > >> > >>>>>> etc.] > > >> > >>>>>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term > "baby > > >> > >>>>> watcher's I > > >> > >>>>>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one > > >> > >>>>>> stream in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan > > >> > >>>>>> privileges language in his notion of thirdness. There is also > > >> > >>>>>> the work of Stolorow Atwood, and Donna Orange, > [intersubjective > > >> > >>>>>> psychodynamics] who do not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a > > >> > >>>>>> developmental achievement as bothDaniel Stern > > >> > >>>>> and > > >> > >>>>>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > > >> > >>>>>> In Jessica's words: > > >> > >>>>>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the other > > >> > >>>>>> as growing naturally out of the experience of being > recognized > > >> > >>>>>> by the other, as a crucial component of attachment responses > > >> > >>>>>> that require mutual regulation and attunement, and therefore, > > >> > >>>>>> as ultimately a > > >> > >>>> pleasure and not a chore" > > >> > >>>>>> > > >> > >>>>>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" > and > > >> > >>>>>> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and > rhythmicity. > > >> > >>>>>> My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and > > >> > >>>>>> rhythmicity] are felt to be > > >> > >>>>> in > > >> > >>>>>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when > > >> > >>>>>> there are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on the > > >> > >>>>>> way to understanding > > >> > >>>>> we > > >> > >>>>>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as > our > > >> > >>>>>> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and > felt > > >> > >>>> experience. > > >> > >>>>>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the > > >> > >>>>>> "struggle for recognition" as an aspect of creating "twoness" > > >> and "thirdness" > > >> > >>>>>> Her > > >> > >>>>> project > > >> > >>>>>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a > model > > >> > >>>>>> for expressing this struggle for recognition. > > >> > >>>>>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary struggle > > >> > >>>>>> for recognition is through a developmental trajectory of > > >> > >>>>>> intersubjective development of thirdness. > > >> > >>>>>> > > >> > >>>>>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through > > >> > >>>>>> privileging sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased > to > > >> come to "know" > > >> > >>>>>> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object relation > > >> > >>>>>> as this analytic kernel > > >> > >>>>> is > > >> > >>>>>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there are > > >> > >>>>>> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated > by > > >> > >>>>>> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of > > >> "seeing" > > >> > >>>> [with the mind's eye?]. > > >> > >>>>>> > > >> > >>>>>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a > > >> > >>>>>> father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it > > >> > >>>>>> gestures to another > > >> > >>>>> dimension, > > >> > >>>>>> another quality of thirdness as embodied > > enactments/performances. > > >> > >>>>>> I > > >> > >>>>> would > > >> > >>>>>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" > can > > >> > >>>>>> offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied > > >> > >>>>>> hearing the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would > emphasize > > >> > >>>>>> your notion of > > >> > >>>>> "intersecting" > > >> > >>>>>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" > > >> > >>>>>> [across > > >> > >>>>> verses] > > >> > >>>>>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > > >> > >>>>>> > > >> > >>>>>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other > forms > > >> > >>>>>> of > > >> > >>>>> learning > > >> > >>>>>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize concept-y > > >> > >>>>>> ways of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality > of > > >> > >>>>>> concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize > the > > >> > >>>>>> children were able to join > > >> > >>>>> in > > >> > >>>>>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be > > >> > >>>>>> able to > > >> > >>>>> explain > > >> > >>>>>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the "world" > > >> > >>>>>> or > > >> > >>>>> "context" > > >> > >>>>>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed > and > > >> > >>>>>> historically situated. > > >> > >>>>>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, > > >> > >>>>>> Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are > > >> > >>>>>> indicating is the > > >> > >>>>> centrality > > >> > >>>>>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as also > > >> > >>>>>> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and > > >> worlds. > > >> > >>>>>> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and > this > > >> > >>>>>> does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical > quality, > > >> > >>>>>> and a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply > > >> > >>>>>> concept-y and > > >> > >>>>> institutionalized > > >> > >>>>>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we > > >> > >>>>>> ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? > > >> > >>>>>> > > >> > >>>>>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > > >> > >>>>>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically > > >> > >>>>>> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third > > >> spaces" > > >> > >>>>>> AS potentially liberating contexts. > > >> > >>>>>> > > >> > >>>>>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of two > > >> > >>>>>> basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's > project > > >> > >>>>>> is to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal > in > > >> > >>>>>> understanding the notion > > >> > >>>>> of > > >> > >>>>>> "recognition". > > >> > >>>>>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of doer > > >> > >>>>>> and done > > >> > >>>>> to > > >> > >>>>>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable > > >> "witnessing" > > >> > >>>>> within > > >> > >>>>>> thirdness. > > >> > >>>>>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > > >> > >>>>>> > > >> > >>>>> > > >> > >>>>> > > >> > >>>>> > > >> > >>>>> -- > > >> > >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science > > >> > >>>>> as an object that creates history. 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Nothing in > this > > >> > email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services > > >> > unless accompanied by an official order form. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ________________________________ > > >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > >> > > >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > > for > > >> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > > >> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > > >> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely > on > > it. > > >> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > >> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > > >> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > > accepts > > >> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan > > emails > > >> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > > responsibility > > >> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > > >> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless > > accompanied > > >> by an official order form. > > >> > > >> > > > > > ________________________________ > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > it. > > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan > emails > > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > > by an official order form. > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jan 21 16:10:43 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 00:10:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> <001701d034b2$3b06d170$b1147450$@terra.com.br> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022930B3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102293237@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102293642@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk>, Message-ID: <1421885443004.2327@unm.edu> Hello Larry and even Henry and all sundry odds and evens ! :) I seem to be swimming in a continuous river of synchronicity. Today I kerplunked into this article: http://aeon.co/magazine/culture/how-all-humans-got-to-be-music-experts/ I thought it was a perfect addition, in consideration of rhythm (a word without vowels), and discusses babies and their ability for recognizing tonality and rhythym! (among other delights) Many references to researchers in the article that might expand XMCAers' reach in this area, and thus I offer it to the list, with a mental flowerbud. Then! I noticed this link in the aeon article above to a Vimeo (about 28 minutes short) about the Church of St John Coltrane, that seems to create its own space in a merging of many different kinds of spaces, in a documentary about inner joy... through music. http://vimeo.com/85728183 Lots of overlaps! :) Kind regards, Annalisa From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Jan 21 16:49:05 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 00:49:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] nunhappy, nenohappy etc Message-ID: Just wondering whether there is a prefix in Russian for double negatives allowing for the inclusion of the imbetween cases, such as "she was not unhappy" (meaning she might have been either happy or neither happy or unhappy). It seems to me that this is quite a frequent occurrence in reading Russian psychologists. Perhaps we should have a specific prefix for it, to match its directness... she was nunhappy... she was nenohappy... Huw From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Jan 21 16:52:20 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 00:52:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292262@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022922E3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102292509@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <7FBD7F14-36AD-4E9A-A3CF-84D64EDD88E2@gmail.com> <001701d034b2$3b06d170$b1147450$@terra.com.br> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022930B3@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102293237@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102293642@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: >From my current readings (Zinchenko et al, 2011): "After all, culture, in inviting everyone, can also push away an unworthy one." Which, of course, can also be a gift to said "unworthy" one. Huw On 21 January 2015 at 17:59, mike cole wrote: > Larry-- Maybe we can enact that zone, as in the case my elderly friend, by > incorporating a strategically useful object into our actions. Instead of a > staff (which was both a need tool for walking and a symbol that > "re-triangulated" her with with the social world. > > Phillip noted that in choosing the staff, my friend was also choosing to > resist/reject her positioning by others. Yes indeed. The mediators we > choose to use when we have a choice, seems to me, always imply rejection of > the things not chosen... although, were the goals of action different, they > might be, as they say, very handy. > > mike > > > On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Rod, > > I am in full agreement with what you have written. The "watching" stance > > [observational stance] [spectator stance] ia the exact opposite of what > I > > wanted to portray. I will drop the term "baby watching" > > > > The term "third space" also can be questioned and the term "zone of > > mediation" or mediated zone could be used. The question becoming when is > > this "zone" have a felt sense of "doer and done to as a complimentary > zone > > of learning, and when can we reflectively enact a mediated zone. The > > question who "perceives" in this way are persons who are searching [and > > creating] alternative approaches beyond being spectators. > > > > Play also can be considered turn taking [my turn your turn, each person > > playing] and alternatively as "surrendering" to the play or being carried > > along "within" the play. > > > > There is a difference in how participation is "felt" or affected. > > > > On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 1:19 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > I have to apologise again for dipping back in to this conversation > when I > > > don't really have time to engage fully with what you have written but I > > > just wanted to throw in my unease about the term 'baby watching'. After > > > reading Vasu Reddy and others on second person perspective I am much > more > > > aware of the importance of the difference between 'watching' from > outside > > > an interaction (a third-person, spectator perspective) and engaging IN > an > > > interaction - as Reddy puts this, the difference between how it feels > > when > > > you see someone smiling at someone else and when you see someone > smiling > > at > > > YOU. While we can learn a lot about interaction from very close, > careful > > > watching of how babies and partners move in response to each other it > is > > > also important to recognise how much more is available when we are IN > > > interaction with another person. I think the palpable, embodied FEEL of > > > interaction is primary - babies can FEEL the difference between > > > sympathetically contingent, attentive and attuned response and less > > > co-regulated forms of interaction before they are able to have any sort > > of > > > conception of another person as another person with whom they are > > > interacting. Seeing the feeling is not quite the same as feeling the > > > feeling! > > > > > > Also, quickly, the adult's marking of an accentuated response is also, > > > surely, a form of pedagogy, demonstrating an active interest in the > > > interests of the baby. > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > Rod > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > > > Sent: 21 January 2015 05:03 > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > > > > > Rod, > > > Another aspect of the notion of asymmetrical "marking" as understood > > within > > > reflective internalized thirdness is the way it can be understood by > > > clarifying how Jessica understands the notion of "equality". > > > Jessica writes: > > > > > > "Symmetry is a crucial part of what unites the pair in complimentarity, > > the > > > takes-one-to-know-one recognition feature of the doer/done to relation > > .... > > > In effect, it builds on the deep structure of mirroring and affective > > > matching that operates [largely procedurally and out of awareness] in > any > > > dyad, when both partners glare at each other or interrupt in unison. > In > > > such interactions, we can see the underlying symmetry that > characterizes > > > the apparent opposition of power relations: each feels unable to gain > the > > > other's recognition, and each feels in the other's power. > > > > > > In other words, the asymmetrical notion of "marking" which facilitates > > > "third space" requires in Jessica's understanding reflective > "surrender" > > > as facilitated by an internal symbolic cultural historical "third > > > space". This space is an imaginal metaphorical "as if" space of > possible > > > and potential "enactments" and "witnessing". However underlying this > > > symbolic space is the necessity of rhythmic attunement [accommodation] > > AND > > > asymmetrical marking [differentiation]. > > > > > > Jessica's understanding of the development of creative "freedom" > > expresses > > > a distinctive sociality of freedom that involves one subject > facilitating > > > the freedom of another through witnessing and hearing the other into > > > voice. However I am suggesting by acting this way [surrendering to the > > > third space] that this is an agentic act, not passive but active. > > Surrender > > > as Jessica understands the term is a possible answer to relations of > > > domination. A generative as well as generous way of facilitating the > > > development of intersubjective sociality. > > > > > > I was intrigued when I read Peg's response discussing appropriation and > > > misappropriation: Peg wrote" > > > > > > "Here, the old lady uses her "mis-appropriation" within an act of > > > transformation. With children, teachers or parents or other elders, > may > > > mis-appropriate children's play -- having children trot or canter or > > > gallup into the classroom as a way to engage them in a transition > > between > > > space or activity. What's different? Well I'm teasing myself with > the > > > notion of "second order" -- for the old lady there's extra > consciousness > > > and that "extra" bit is acted by the adult in the case of the > children." > > > > > > Peg's reflection on second order "extra" consciousness. THAT "extra > bit" > > > that is acted by the adult may overlap with Jessica's notion of the > > > "symbolic metaphorical space of thirdness from within which one acts. > > > What's different" I return to Miguel's comment questioning if there > are > > > subject-object performances which are distinct from intersubjective > > > subject-subject enactments. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Larry Purss > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Rod > > > > I would say that Jessica would fully endorse this understanding of > > using > > > > internalized thirdness. as a "reflective" space. This is the aspect > of > > > > thirdness that she refers to as the "symbolic third "[ a metaphorical > > > space > > > > of ?s if""perceiving the world through a sociocultural filter. > > > > Your focussing on the centrality of "marking"I would suggest has been > > > > deeply explored by Fonagy and Gergley in there re-searching ""affect > > > > regulation. > > > > Whether others agree or question Jessica's notions of ?ntersubjective > > > > third space"[aspects of attunement, differentiation, and symbolic > > thirds] > > > > as a mediating environment, the focus on "marking" contrasted with > > > matching > > > > or mirroring] is a profound insight and notions of "self-regulation" > > can > > > be > > > > expanded by the understanding of affect regulation through > asymmetrical > > > > "marking" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > >> I have had to read hastily, Larry and I am not at all sure that I > have > > > >> followed you and Jessica Benjamin through the psychoanalytical > > accounts > > > of > > > >> intersubjectivity but I wanted to pick up on her point about the > > > 'marking' > > > >> of the mother's response to a baby's distress (not simply mirroring > > this > > > >> back in the same form as it came from the baby). The mother/parent > is > > > >> perhaps able to use an internalised thirdness to see the (future) > > > >> autonomous self in the actions of the baby, perceiving these > through a > > > >> sociocultural filter and responding 'as if' the baby was already a > > (more > > > >> competent) social agent - or perhaps it is more that the parent > > > responds as > > > >> if the interaction is already such as is had between enculturated > > > agents - > > > >> moving into a third space into which the baby is also drawn. > > > >> > > > >> Rod > > > >> > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > > > >> Sent: 20 January 2015 15:41 > > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > > >> > > > >> Rod, > > > >> Yes, and the surrender she is exploring is of the intersubjective > type > > > >> [subject subject complimentarity transformed. This is in contrast > to > > > >> submission as a relation in which some "one" [person or "idea" is > > > >> "dominant" and privileged such a patriarchal father,] To sub-mit > for > > > >> Jessica enacts some "one" is "over"-seeing. > > > >> > > > >> In her example of the walk with the two year old, if this walk > > becomes > > > >> "duty" through an act of self- assertion or self-regulation this > duty > > > >> becomes some"thing" which the parent submits to and there is no > > longer > > > a > > > >> sense of mutual intersubjective delight in surrendering to the > "third" > > > that > > > >> mutual potential space. > > > >> Jessica describes this tension between subjective complimentary > > twoness > > > >> [i.e. patriarchal father as over lord] and the who submits to the > > "one" > > > >> [person or ideal] AND intersubjective "thirdness" as a tension which > > > will > > > >> never be dialectically resolved. Thirdness will always rupture and > > need > > > >> repair. Jessica's is a "moral" third and is a developmental > > > "achievement". > > > >> It requires first having participated and been "held" or "witnessed" > > > >> within palpable felt experience which creates a thirdness of > > > >> intersubjective attunement. This is "accommodation". > > > >> > > > >> The mother's gestures must be "marked" to the rhythm of the babies > > moods > > > >> and affect as attunement to a rhythmic "dance". This is the context > or > > > ZPD > > > >> in which "differentiation" from fusion within "oneness" occurs. > > > >> > > > >> This intersubjective model recognizes that this type of > developmental > > > >> "learning" must be co-created and requires the "symbolic" third > which > > > >> explores as metaphorical enactments of (a)symmetry. The parent must > > act > > > >> from within "reflective" presence enacting the third by "morally" > > > >> surrendering to the rhythm or musical patterning using cultural > > > >> historical tools and understandings. > > > >> > > > >> I read Jessica as "seeing through" the historical constellation of > two > > > >> independent subjectivie standpoints in relations of complimentarity > > and > > > >> one is "over" and the other "under" in relations of domination. > > > >> Submitting to a fundamental already known "one" is not > intersubjective > > > >> asymmetrical enactments which call forth surrender of the person > > through > > > >> rhythmical attunements to the other as the "basis" for > differentiation > > > of > > > >> the two subjectivities through the moral reflections of the care > > giver. > > > >> > > > >> This model understands maturity as the care giver having her own > > > >> subjectivity and "twoness" and "thirdness" are never resolved or > > > >> transcended . They co-exist and the care giver must develop the > > > capacity or > > > >> disposition for co-creating attuned, differentiated, and symbolic > > > >> thirdness. What Jessica is suggesting is this process collapses into > > > >> complimentary doer and done to without the recognition this is > > > continually > > > >> co-created "MORAL" thirdness that intentionally resists either/or > > > >> enactments which demand patriarchical recognition and the other must > > in > > > >> duty submit > > > >> > > > >> The tension is never overcome and it is inevitable that thirdness > will > > > >> collapse into twoness. This will be felt as a loss of thirdness and > > the > > > >> moral struggle is through reflection for the more mature one to > > > >> re-establish thirdness through recognition that the thirdness > shifted > > > >> towards self-assertive twoness. It takes the commitment for the > person > > > in > > > >> the lead to recognize he/she returned to "twoness" and caused a > > rupture > > > and > > > >> to sincerely communicate this "truth" to the other participant(s) so > > the > > > >> felt inevitable disregulation can be validated as a felt truth. > > > >> This acknowledge is capable of reopening this space of thirdness, > this > > > >> metaphorical space of potentiality and possibility. > > > >> > > > >> This model is "intersubjective" not subjective Larry > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 5:23 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > > >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > But Benjamin would argue that this is surrender (jointly giving > up a > > > >> > focus on self in order to focus on a shared 'third' space of > > > >> > relationship) rather than submission (losing self in/to the > > > >> relationship). > > > >> > > > > >> > Bartels and Zeki (The neural correlates of maternal and romantic > > love, > > > >> > Neuroimage, 2004, 21, 1155-66) suggest that love is associated > with > > a > > > >> > reduction of activity in parts of the brain associated with social > > > >> > evaluation - so love is, in some respects, blind and lovers (of > > their > > > >> > own babies or of romantic partners) may be more willing to > surrender > > > >> > despite what others might see as flaws in the objects of their > love! > > > >> > > > > >> > All the best, > > > >> > > > > >> > Rod > > > >> > > > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > > >> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > >> > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Maria Judith > Sucupira > > > da > > > >> > Costa Lins > > > >> > Sent: 20 January 2015 13:09 > > > >> > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > > > >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] RES: Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > > >> > > > > >> > Submission is presente also in true love. > > > >> > maria > > > >> > > > > >> > -----Mensagem original----- > > > >> > De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > >> > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] Em nome de HENRY SHONERD Enviada > > em: > > > >> > segunda-feira, 19 de janeiro de 2015 22:39 > > > >> > Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >> > Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > > >> > > > > >> > Larry, > > > >> > Do you think it?s sad-masochistic of me to suggest that we give > > > >> > submission a chance? Unanalyzed, ?submission?, not even a > suggestion > > > >> > of a hyphen, as a juicy chunk, I think of Islam, or what I know > of > > it > > > >> > through a hodge podge of media and friendships. But break it down, > > > >> > without even going to the dictionary, ?sub-mission? has the ring > of > > > >> > commitment to a project. As a legal term, my dictionary has > > > >> > ?submission? as ?an agreement between parties involved in a > > dispute?. > > > >> > Here?s more from the semantic cluster: A synonym for ?submission? > is > > > >> > ?yield?, from the Middle English. It?s worth mashing up latinate > and > > > >> > germanic etymology and morphology to set up mnemonics for the > > > >> > discourse. So, when, if ever, is it good to ?submit?, ?give in?? I > > > >> > submit to the good will of la gente of this chat. There?s gotta be > > > >> > respect and trust. Among other things, that means it has to be > > > >> > voluntary and de buena voluntad. And transparent? Let me suggest a > > > >> > prototypical narr ative of > > > >> > submission: Motherhood. Giving birth and all of that jazz. > > Creativity > > > >> > with a capital ?C?. Here?s another: death. Everything in between > is > > up > > > >> > for grabs I guess. Probably lots of diversity as they say in the > > game. > > > >> > Please, chatters, don?t feel the need to respond. I?ll take > silence > > as > > > >> good sign. > > > >> > Like, you?re listening politely. > > > >> > Submissively > > > >> > Henry > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > On Jan 19, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Larry Purss > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Rod, > > > >> > > In the spirit of your caution and acknowledging its truth > value, I > > > >> > > want to say I was hesitant to use the term "surrender" for how > it > > > >> > > would be misunderstood. In a similar way to the > misunderstandings > > > >> > > of the term "mind". > > > >> > > > > > >> > > I will mention that Jessica is consciously using the word > > > "surrender" > > > >> > > as NOT "submission" as she tries to articulate a nypothesis that > > > >> > > sees through "domination" and the struggle to the death of > > > >> > > complimentary > > > >> > "recognition" > > > >> > > I fully expect Jessica's work to instigate passionate responses. > > > >> > > Her work does develop from Habermas, Adorno, Horkheimer, Fromm > and > > > >> > > the Frankfurt school. > > > >> > > Jessica says we have conflated "surrender" with "submission" and > > > >> > > Jessica's use of the term "surrender" must be seen as being > > engaged > > > >> > > in exploring [and putting in play] notions of instrumental > > > >> > > internalized "self-regulation" AND notions of the "third space" > as > > > >> > > coming into being through "surrender" to a place of potentiality > > and > > > >> > > possibility > > > >> > that is moving "beyond" > > > >> > > self-assertion as a complimentary struggle to the death. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Rod, the play of "active" and "receptive" thirds [in contrast to > > > >> > > active and passive twoness] is the place which Jessica is > inviting > > > >> > > us to > > > >> > occupy. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Notions of "surrender" carry huge baggage and and will invite > > > >> > > palpable rejection as concepts. This is a fact. It is > challenging > > > >> > > particular notions of "subjective" and "intersubjective" > > > >> > > However, if we begin within a dialogical awareness and > acknowledge > > > >> > > that using a term such as "surrender" will be read by most and > > > >> > > rejected as implying "submission" and "domination" and > > "passivity" > > > >> > > and "loosing the self", then the process that you and I are > > engaged > > > >> > > in at this moment is the hermeneutical enactment of > > differentiating > > > >> > > and "marking" the distinctions the distinctions between > > "surrender" > > > >> > > and "submission" Jessica is asking us to pause and be reflective > > and > > > >> > consider this distinction. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Rod, Jessica is working within a "tradition" [the Frankfurt > School > > > >> > > where she is in dialogue with Hegel, Habermas, Adorno, > Horkheimer. > > > >> > > Her project is to "see through" the patterns of complimentary > > > >> "twoness" > > > >> > > [doer and done to giver and given to]. The term "surrender" is > > being > > > >> > > used within this tradition. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > This term "surrender" [as exemplified in Stephen Mitchell's > story > > of > > > >> > > letting go of his "idea" of "a walk" to enter his daughter's > > > >> > > enactment of "a walk" is central to Jessica's notion of > > > >> > > living-in-truth. Yes, it invites further dialogue and will be > > > >> > > misunderstood. It requires further dialogue. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > I could have tried to write an essay fully outlining the term > > > >> "surrender" > > > >> > > This word has sparked considerable response within the tradition > > of > > > >> > > feminism. I could also she it being challenged as Eurocentric or > > too > > > >> > > psychological [emphasizing both accommodation and > > differentiation]. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Posting to the listserve and inviting commentary and further > > > >> > > questions on the term "surrender" is another approach. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > I also hoped to find a "bridge" to Kris' understanding of "third > > > >> > > space" and her exploration of intersubjective testimonio as > hybrid > > > >> > > co-creative mutual rhythmic patterns forming within third > spaces. > > I > > > >> > > see a quality of "surrender" [as Jessica uses the term] in Kris' > > > >> > > exploration of third spaces. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Vygotsky explores internalized "self-regulation" as a > > developmental > > > >> task. > > > >> > > Jessica suggests the development of self regulation moves > through > > > >> > > asymmetrical accommodation AND differentiation. For Jessica this > > > >> > > psychological development [if it is to form third spaces] > requires > > > >> > > asymmetrical agentic active "surrender" as a way beyond a > struggle > > > >> > > to the death of complimentary twoness. > > > >> > > In summary, I understand Jessica's work as an aspect of cultural > > > >> > > historical understanding, that includes social theory of > emotions > > > >> > > and cognition and culture that is historical. > > > >> > > The term "surrender" is a discursive and dialogical form of > > > enactment. > > > >> > > It was offered in the spirit of open ended dialogue but I was > > aware > > > >> > > and took a chance in using the word "surrender" Another word > > would > > > >> > > have been less controversial but I do question if being > > > >> > > misunderstood and then requiring further clarification is an > > > >> approach with some value. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > I do not intend the use of "surrender" as an alternative > approach > > to > > > >> > > cultural historical theory. > > > >> > > The use of this term is meant in a spirit of dialogue and the > > > "piety" > > > >> > > of questions inviting answers. > > > >> > > Rod, in the way I presented the term "surrender", I may have > > > >> > > elaborated further, and clarified more, but I was not sure if > > there > > > >> > > were others who shared an interest in this topic of > complimentary > > > >> > > twoness and co-creative thirdness. I was interested in going > > deeper > > > >> > > into understanding "third spaces" and by posting was feeling my > > way > > > >> > > in by probing the level of interest. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Larry > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > > >> > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > >> > > > > > >> > >> Larry, > > > >> > >> As I said, I like Benjamin's distinction between surrender and > > > >> > >> submission but I also think that it is not so simple to > introduce > > > >> > >> new shadings of meaning to a word/concept which is already part > > of > > > >> > >> people's vocabulary. For most people, outside the group of > those > > > >> > >> who know about Benjamin's work, surrender WILL still carry felt > > > >> > >> associations with unwillingly giving up ownership or control of > > > >> > >> something prized/valued. This is bound to result in > > > >> > >> miscommunication unless those who use surrender in its new > sense > > > >> > >> signal and explain this use. I think an awareness of how we can > > > >> > >> expect others to react (body, mind and soul) is a core aspect > of > > > >> > >> communication and ethical behaviour. We can't just occupy that > > > >> > >> third space and expect others to > > > >> > surrender to the meanings we want to introduce! > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Rod > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Sent from my Windows Phone > > > >> > >> ________________________________ > > > >> > >> From: Larry Purss > > > >> > >> Sent: 19/01/2015 01:29 > > > >> > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >> > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Miguel, > > > >> > >> The article I have been referencing is from Jessica Benjamin's > > > >> > >> article "Beyond Doer and Done To: An Intersubjective View of > > > >> > >> Thirdness" There is an extensive bibliography . Interestingly > > > >> > >> Jessica's dissertation was written in 1978 with the title, > > > >> > "Internalization and Instrumental Culture: > > > >> > >> A Reinterpretation of Psychoanalysis and Social Theory" > > > >> > >> Rod, > > > >> > >> Jessica references Colwyn Trevarthen as a source of her notion > of > > > >> > >> "surrender". Yes, this word will make some uncomfortable, but > > this > > > >> > >> term must be seen as clearly differentiated from the notion of > > > >> > "submission" > > > >> > >> which Jessica believes are often conflated. I view "surrender" > as > > > >> > >> Jessica uses the term as an "agentic" act that is ethical. It > is > > an > > > >> > >> act [or enactment] which is felt as expansive, not as > restrictive > > > >> > >> of > > > >> > "self" > > > >> > >> I am going to share a quote from Jessica's paper that she > offered > > > >> > >> to differentiate the palpable difference between "surrender" > and > > > >> > "submission". > > > >> > >> She is quoting Stephen Mitchell who is a key person in > developing > > > >> > >> relational and hermeneutical psychoanalysis. > > > >> > >> Mitchell wrote: > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> When my older daughter was about two or so, I remember my > > > >> > >> excitement at the prospect [LP-imaginal] of taking walks with > > her, > > > >> > >> given her new ambulatory skills and her intense interest in > being > > > >> outdoors. > > > >> > >> However, I soon found these walks agonizingly slow. My idea > of a > > > >> > >> walk entailed brisk movement along a road or path. Her idea > was > > > >> > >> quite different. The implication of this difference hit me one > > day > > > >> > >> when we encountered a fallen tree on the side of the road.... > > > >> > >> The rest of the "walk" was spent exploring the fungal and > insect > > > >> > >> life on, under, and around the tree. I remember my sudden > > > >> > >> realization that these walks would be no fun for me, merely a > > > >> > >> parental duty, if I held onto my idea of walks. As I was able > to > > > >> > >> give that up and SURRENDER to my daughter's rhythm and focus, a > > > >> > >> different type of experience opened up to me..... If I had > > simply > > > >> > >> RESTRAINED myself out of duty, I would have experienced the > walk > > as > > > >> > >> a compliance. But I was able to become my daughter's version > of > > a > > > >> > >> good companion and to find in THAT another way for me to be > that > > > >> > >> took on great personal meaning" [Benjamin, page 26] > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> For Benjamin and Mitchell this quote expresses the principle of > > > >> > >> necessary asymmetry, by accommodating to the other as a way of > > > >> > "generating" > > > >> > >> thirdness. and within the "surrendering" the person is > > transformed, > > > >> > >> through opening up to mutual pleasure. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Jessica is asking how we distinguish between the compliance of > > > >> "twoness" > > > >> > >> from the transformational learning of thirdness. For Jessica > the > > > >> > >> answer is ethical, in the form of reflections on what will > create > > > >> > >> intersubjective connection in our relationship, and through > this > > > >> > >> reflection, opening up to surrender and transformation. This > > > >> > >> creative enactment expresses agency and is not coerced. It is > an > > > >> > >> ethical response. This "intention" to connect and the resulting > > > >> > >> self-observation create what Jessical calls "moral thirdness", > > the > > > >> > >> connection to a larger expansive connection beyond giver and > > given > > > >> > >> to > > > >> > that is felt as palpably "right". > > > >> > >> In all Jessica's work she is distinguishing "surrender" from > > > >> > "submission" > > > >> > >> [including submitting to an "ideal" of "pure" empathy. which > is a > > > >> > >> denial of self and leads to complimentary doer and done to. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> For Jessica this moral third space is the space where > > > >> > >> "self-regulation" and "co-regulation" meet. But that would > > require > > > >> > further elaboration. > > > >> > >> Larry > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > > >> > >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >>> Larry, > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> Many thanks for your very clear account of Jessica Benjamin's > > > >> > >>> distinction between 'submitting' and 'surrendering' (though I > > > >> > >>> suspect that both terms might trigger associations for many > > which > > > >> > >>> might make them uncomfortable about using them in these ways). > > > >> > >>> Your observations about possibility > > > >> > >>> (doableness) make me wonder about how a shared history and > > common > > > >> > >>> experience might contribute to the building of richer and more > > > >> > >>> extensive possibilities among a community or a group of people > > who > > > >> > >>> spend time together (especially 'down' time, when they are > more > > > >> > >>> relaxed and their social guards are down). It is easier and > more > > > >> > agreeable to 'surrender' > > > >> > >>> into this sort of group, to 'go with the flow' of social > > > >> > >>> conversation > > > >> > >> with > > > >> > >>> no real concern about where it might lead and, in so doing, to > > > >> > >>> contribute to the co-construction of a third space which is > > shaped > > > >> > >>> not so much by > > > >> > >> the > > > >> > >>> thingness or iddity of participants as by the movement of > > > >> > >>> interactions between them. This sort of surrendering into a > > group > > > >> > >>> feels very different from submitting to the ordered, planned > > > >> > >>> procedures of a 'getting things done' sort of meeting (though > > > >> > >>> there is > > > >> > room for overlap). > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>>> From a baby watcher's perspective, this surrender sounds very > > > >> > >>>> much like > > > >> > >>> what Colwyn Trevarthen called primary intersubjectivity - when > > > >> > >>> baby and caregiver 'lose themselves' in interaction purely for > > the > > > >> > >>> sake of > > > >> > >> engaging > > > >> > >>> with each other (or rather, perhaps, of engaging with the > 'great > > > >> we'). > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> I think there is a lot to be said about the way our sense of > our > > > >> > >>> own and other selves moves in and out of this sort of third > > space. > > > >> > >>> Vera captured some lovely aspects of this in her book > 'Creative > > > >> > >>> Collaboration' - how > > > >> > >> the > > > >> > >>> 'dailiness' of being with other members of a group lubricates > > the > > > >> > >>> possibilities, allowing idea sharing to blossom. > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> All the best, > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> Rod > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > > > >> > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > >> > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > > > >> > >>> Sent: 18 January 2015 16:26 > > > >> > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >> > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> Rod, I concur with your interpretations. > > > >> > >>> I would add to your comment: > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to > > > >> > >>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might > > help > > > >> > >>> to remind > > > >> > >> them > > > >> > >>> that things are not simple, categorised and predictable - what > > > >> > >>> looks at first like a frail old woman may turn out to be a > > person! > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> The "choice" emerged from within a symbolic imagining of > others > > > >> > >>> expectations. This interpretation is within the subject's > > > >> > >>> internalized "scripts". > > > >> > >>> This is exploring "my" act and your return act. > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> Third space notions ask or question if there are > > "intersubjective" > > > >> > >>> ways > > > >> > >> to > > > >> > >>> enact "shared imaginal places which are first symbolic > imaginal > > > >> > >> "potential" > > > >> > >>> places. Shared mutual metaphorical spaces/places that do not > > yet > > > >> > >>> exist but are "possible" The focus on the morpho-genesis of > > > "posse" > > > >> > >>> [meaning can] with the suffix ibilas "causing" a > > "transformation" > > > >> > >>> through > > > >> > >> activities > > > >> > >>> [enactments, performances from WITHIN this "middle shared > > realm". > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> This way of understanding is playing with notions of > > metaphorical > > > >> > >>> and imaginal and symbolic "places" as "existing" WITHIN shared > > > >> > >>> potential spaces. This posits shared mutually imagined third > > > >> > >>> spaces of > > > >> > >> "possibility" > > > >> > >>> within "as if" realms of becoming that open up spaces in which > > > >> > >>> things are not yet "things" and "facts" that are simple, > > > >> > >>> categorized, predictable, > > > >> > >> and > > > >> > >>> with a yearning to be known as "real" and "actual". > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> What both Kris and Jessica share is an exploration of > > > >> "intersubjective" > > > >> > >>> mediated metaphorical third spaces "as if" real and actual. > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> Jessica Benjamin also makes a distinction between > "surrendering" > > > >> > >>> to > > > >> > >> "exist" > > > >> > >>> in third spaces in contrast to "submitting" to the other. > [other > > > >> > >>> as > > > >> > >> things > > > >> > >>> or persons]. Sumitting to objects or persons is experienced > > being > > > >> > >>> reduced by the other. It abstracts us from "third spaces" and > > > >> > >>> collapses into complimentary "twoness" of "giver and given" or > > > >> > >>> "doer > > > >> > and done to" > > > >> > >>> Third spaces are palpably "liberating" through "surrendering" > > and > > > >> > >>> "becoming within the "potential" or the "possible" symbolic > > > "third" > > > >> > >>> that which does not yet exist in actuality or "facts" > > > >> > >>> The third space must be enacted performed or take action but > > > >> > >>> moving out from within this imaginal shared space. > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> This notion is playing with the not yet but shared "existence" > > > >> > >>> becoming actual simple categorized concept-y. There is no > > absolute > > > >> > >>> freedom fundamentally nor is there absolute constraint > > > >> fundamentally. > > > >> > >>> However for transformative liberation there must be imaginal > > > >> > >>> symbolic shared and mutual ways within which we "surrender" > This > > > >> > >>> in no way means "submit" > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > > >> > >>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>>> I am feeling my way into the talk around thirdness - dimly > > > >> > >>>> conscious of a variety of contexts in which thirdspace has > been > > > >> > explored. > > > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> In your example, Mike, your friends choice of a staff has a > > > >> > >>>> significance because it plays off the cultural expectation > that > > > >> > >>>> it should be a cane. In this sense it is a particularly > > striking > > > >> > >>>> example of what we all do every day when we make choices > about > > > >> > >>>> how we will represent ourselves to the world. Our choice of > > > >> > >>>> clothes, how we do our hair, what we smell like, how we stand > > and > > > >> > >>>> walk, how we greet people etc. all play off our knowledge of > > what > > > >> > >>>> different choices are likely to be taken to mean (by > different > > > >> > >>>> groups of people). I think this links to what Larry (I think) > > was > > > >> > >>>> saying about the concept-y-ness of the context-y environment > in > > > >> > >>>> which babies > > > >> > play their way into meanings. > > > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> In terms of signification, the choice of a staff is likely to > > > >> > >>>> prompt others into a slight lurch of expectations which might > > > >> > >>>> help to remind them that things are not simple, categorised > and > > > >> > >>>> predictable - what looks at first like a frail old woman may > > turn > > > >> > >>>> out > > > >> > to be a person! > > > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> I wonder how much we need to be aware of the internalised > > > >> > >>>> cultural knowledge which informs our choices about how we > will > > > >> > >>>> present ourselves? I suspect this contributes to the > (palpable) > > > >> > >>>> feeling of ease or unease which comes from knowing or not > > knowing > > > >> > >>>> how we are 'meant' to behave in a familiar or unfamiliar > > context. > > > >> > >>>> When the rhythms are part of our embodied experience it is > easy > > > >> > >>>> to join in but when we encounter different, exotic rhythms we > > > >> > >>>> need to watch from the periphery for a while before we > presume > > to > > > >> > >>>> know what we are > > > >> > doing. > > > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> All the best, > > > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> Rod > > > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > > >> > >>>> From: > > > >> > >>>> xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees= > plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >> > >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees > > > >> =plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd. > > > >> > >>>> edu > > > >> > >>>> ] > > > >> > >>>> On Behalf Of Larry Purss > > > >> > >>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 07:56 > > > >> > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >> > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thirdness and its various versions > > > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> Mike, > > > >> > >>>> You mentioned multi-modality and I agree. Yes cognition and > > > >> > >>>> social emotions are intimately involved along with other > > > "musical" > > > >> > >>>> rhythmic modalities. > > > >> > >>>> Thought and language and the figural within enactments > > > >> > >>>> [performances] > > > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> You asked if the staff is a sign? or a tool? I would have to > > say > > > >> > >>>> it is a "sign" but the word "prop" also comes to mind. I > want > > to > > > >> > >>>> explore what I see as the "imaginal" at play in the > "symbolic" > > > >> > >>>> and cognitive enactment of using the staff rather than a cane > > in > > > >> > >>>> setting > > > >> > the "scene" > > > >> > >>>> The notion of a "middle way" within "third spaces" is > exploring > > > >> > >>>> enacting [or performing] within imaginal symbolic play. Is > the > > > >> > >>>> "image" of a cane being replaced by a staff a "fact" or is > it a > > > >> > >>>> more > > > >> > >>> metaphorical enactment. > > > >> > >>>> Do the staff or cane exist as "facts" having objective truth? > > Or > > > >> > >>>> is the cane and staff imaginal symbolic ways of imagining > being > > > >> > >>>> in the world as "possibility". > > > >> > >>>> In Winnicott's language is this middle way or third space a > > > >> > >>>> "potential space" or a "transitional" space which when > enacted > > > >> > >>>> brings > > > >> > >>> into "actuality" > > > >> > >>>> the rhythmic pattern or dance of relating to an old lady [as > a > > > >> > >>>> possible "scene"] or a pattern of relating to an eccentric > > person > > > >> > >>>> and enacting this alternative possible "scene". > > > >> > >>>> The "scene" when enacted or performed always expresses > palpable > > > >> > >>>> felt experience. In the enactment the possible becomes > "actual" > > > >> > >>>> and becomes "factual" Mike your friend in choosing a staff > > over > > > >> > >>>> a cane was acting from within an imaginal symbolic "place" Is > > > this > > > >> "place" > > > >> > >>>> internal or > > > >> > >>> external? > > > >> > >>>> or is it a "potential place" of possibility which does not > yet > > > >> exist? > > > >> > >>>> Within this imaginal symbolic presenting [not representing] > > > >> > >>>> presence [both internal imagining and external performances] > > > >> > >>>> there are always palpable felt experiences and every > > > >> > >>>> "interpretation" is guided by these multi-modal ways of > > > >> understanding. > > > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> Third spaces as ways of understanding explore > "self-regulation" > > > >> > >>>> and "dis-regulation" within intersubjective enactments and > > > >> > >>>> palpable felt experience. I am also emphasizing their > imaginal > > > >> > >>>> symbolic dimension as "potential" or "transitional" spaces > > > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> The aspect that is being highlighted by the notion of third > > > >> > >>>> spaces is there embodied presence and there witnessing > quality > > > >> > >>>> which is often marginalized or disowned when we privilege a > > > >> > >>>> particular "type" of rationality and thinking. > > > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> What seems to be shared in common across multiple notions of > > > >> > >>>> "third > > > >> > >>> spaces" > > > >> > >>>> is privileging ethical or moral aspects of enactments. Who is > > > >> > >>>> included and who is excluded. > > > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, mike cole > > > wrote: > > > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>>> I am working backwards here, but I have been thinking a lot > > > >> > >>>>> about what I was conceiving in my own way as a form of > > thirdness > > > >> > >>>>> that I think links to what is being said here. Straighten me > > out > > > >> > >>>>> if I am wrong. (I promised to get out of here shortly, but > its > > > >> interesting!). > > > >> > >>>>> > > > >> > >>>>> We have a friend, now in her 60's, who is a college > classmate > > of > > > >> > >>>>> my wife and a life long friend of our family. She has been > in > > > >> > >>>>> ill health for sometime and looks a good deal older than her > > > >> years. > > > >> > >>>>> Balance is an issue for her. > > > >> > >>>>> > > > >> > >>>>> When I first saw her the other day after many years I > noticed > > > >> > >>>>> that she was carrying a large staff. > > > >> > >>>>> I laughted, and my first words were "You look just like > > > Gandalf! > > > >> > >>>>> and gave her a big hug." > > > >> > >>>>> > > > >> > >>>>> Over tea she discussed that by carrying the staff instead > of a > > > >> > >>>>> cane, she lost the invisibility created by old age and she > > > >> > >>>>> became a perons to others. People constantly started up > > > >> > >>>>> conversations with her and, being a skilled > conversationalist > > > >> > >>>>> interested in people, it made her feel like a whole person. > > > >> > >>>>> > > > >> > >>>>> Seems interesting to me. Is it a kind of thirdness? A sign > or > > > >> > >>>>> (?) a > > > >> > >>> tool? > > > >> > >>>>> Seems like cognition and social emotions are somehow > involved > > as > > > >> > >> well. > > > >> > >>>>> > > > >> > >>>>> mike > > > >> > >>>>> > > > >> > >>>>> mike > > > >> > >>>>> > > > >> > >>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Larry Purss > > > >> > >>>>> > > > >> > >>>> wrote: > > > >> > >>>>> > > > >> > >>>>>> Miguel, Rod, > > > >> > >>>>>> > > > >> > >>>>>> I am moving our conversation to a new thread to honour the > > > >> > >>>>>> other thread exploring "laws" of history and writing > > systems. I > > > >> > >>>>>> see these topics as overlapping but notions of "thirdness" > > that > > > >> > >>>>>> contrast with > > > >> > >>>> "twoness" > > > >> > >>>>>> [Jessica's doer and done to, or giver and given two, or > > knower > > > >> > >>>>>> and > > > >> > >>>>> learner, > > > >> > >>>>>> etc.] > > > >> > >>>>>> Rod I must acknowledge when I read Jessica using the term > > "baby > > > >> > >>>>> watcher's I > > > >> > >>>>>> was thinking of your work and posts. Jessica's work is one > > > >> > >>>>>> stream in intersubjective notions of thirdness. Lacan > > > >> > >>>>>> privileges language in his notion of thirdness. There is > also > > > >> > >>>>>> the work of Stolorow Atwood, and Donna Orange, > > [intersubjective > > > >> > >>>>>> psychodynamics] who do not imagine "intersubjectivity" as a > > > >> > >>>>>> developmental achievement as bothDaniel Stern > > > >> > >>>>> and > > > >> > >>>>>> Jessica Benjamine understand thirdness. > > > >> > >>>>>> In Jessica's words: > > > >> > >>>>>> "I see such engagement in reciprocal recognition of the > other > > > >> > >>>>>> as growing naturally out of the experience of being > > recognized > > > >> > >>>>>> by the other, as a crucial component of attachment > responses > > > >> > >>>>>> that require mutual regulation and attunement, and > therefore, > > > >> > >>>>>> as ultimately a > > > >> > >>>> pleasure and not a chore" > > > >> > >>>>>> > > > >> > >>>>>> Miguel you mentioned our Western bias to privilege "seeing" > > and > > > >> > >>>>>> other cultures may privilege hearing and sound and > > rhythmicity. > > > >> > >>>>>> My bias is to suggest when these various modes [seeing and > > > >> > >>>>>> rhythmicity] are felt to be > > > >> > >>>>> in > > > >> > >>>>>> sync then they mutually constitute thirdness. However, when > > > >> > >>>>>> there are inevitable (mis)understandings and ruptures on > the > > > >> > >>>>>> way to understanding > > > >> > >>>>> we > > > >> > >>>>>> may have a tendency to fall back on seeing and reasoning as > > our > > > >> > >>>>>> primary mode and to discount the rhymicity of the ear and > > felt > > > >> > >>>> experience. > > > >> > >>>>>> Jessica's work engages with Hegel and the notion of the > > > >> > >>>>>> "struggle for recognition" as an aspect of creating > "twoness" > > > >> and "thirdness" > > > >> > >>>>>> Her > > > >> > >>>>> project > > > >> > >>>>>> is to critique notions of complimentarity "twoness" as a > > model > > > >> > >>>>>> for expressing this struggle for recognition. > > > >> > >>>>>> She would suggest the way through this complimentary > struggle > > > >> > >>>>>> for recognition is through a developmental trajectory of > > > >> > >>>>>> intersubjective development of thirdness. > > > >> > >>>>>> > > > >> > >>>>>> Miguel, I would like to follow your lead that through > > > >> > >>>>>> privileging sight [seeing and reasoning] that we are biased > > to > > > >> come to "know" > > > >> > >>>>>> the other as "object" As you say "the subject-object > relation > > > >> > >>>>>> as this analytic kernel > > > >> > >>>>> is > > > >> > >>>>>> one "type" of knowing the other. You are asking if there > are > > > >> > >>>>>> alternative subject-subject relations that are not mediated > > by > > > >> > >>>>>> objects? This may be another "mode" and a distinct kind of > > > >> "seeing" > > > >> > >>>> [with the mind's eye?]. > > > >> > >>>>>> > > > >> > >>>>>> Miguel when you say you speak from personal experience as a > > > >> > >>>>>> father, and this is a spiritual space of connection, it > > > >> > >>>>>> gestures to another > > > >> > >>>>> dimension, > > > >> > >>>>>> another quality of thirdness as embodied > > > enactments/performances. > > > >> > >>>>>> I > > > >> > >>>>> would > > > >> > >>>>>> like to offer that Enrique Dussel's "ethical hermeneutics" > > can > > > >> > >>>>>> offer validation for Jessica and Daniel Stern's embodied > > > >> > >>>>>> hearing the other [rhythmically] into voice. I would > > emphasize > > > >> > >>>>>> your notion of > > > >> > >>>>> "intersecting" > > > >> > >>>>>> multiple truths. I would also offer the term "transversal" > > > >> > >>>>>> [across > > > >> > >>>>> verses] > > > >> > >>>>>> truths as multiple and plural and "palpable" > > > >> > >>>>>> > > > >> > >>>>>> Rod, I concur with your reflections that there are other > > forms > > > >> > >>>>>> of > > > >> > >>>>> learning > > > >> > >>>>>> [especially social learning] which do not emphasize > concept-y > > > >> > >>>>>> ways of thinking. I want to also acknowledge the centrality > > of > > > >> > >>>>>> concept-y ways of seeing and reasoning but as you emphasize > > the > > > >> > >>>>>> children were able to join > > > >> > >>>>> in > > > >> > >>>>>> WELL before they were able to understand conceptually or be > > > >> > >>>>>> able to > > > >> > >>>>> explain > > > >> > >>>>>> what was being enacted. This does not refute that the > "world" > > > >> > >>>>>> or > > > >> > >>>>> "context" > > > >> > >>>>>> in which the children are joining in is symbolically formed > > and > > > >> > >>>>>> historically situated. > > > >> > >>>>>> What Daniel Stern, Jessica Benjamin, V. Reddy, Winnicott, > > > >> > >>>>>> Trevarten, Fonagy, Gergely and other "baby watchers" are > > > >> > >>>>>> indicating is the > > > >> > >>>>> centrality > > > >> > >>>>>> of "gestures" [meaningful performances or enactments as > also > > > >> > >>>>>> profoundly implicated in the formation of our contexts and > > > >> worlds. > > > >> > >>>>>> Worlds of experience are "palpable lived experiences" and > > this > > > >> > >>>>>> does have a phenomenological quality, a hermeneutical > > quality, > > > >> > >>>>>> and a cultural historical quality. Worlds are also deeply > > > >> > >>>>>> concept-y and > > > >> > >>>>> institutionalized > > > >> > >>>>>> and places of doer and done to. The question is how do we > > > >> > >>>>>> ethically and morally respond to these palpable conditions? > > > >> > >>>>>> > > > >> > >>>>>> "Thirdness" in its multiple versions may offer possible new > > > >> > >>>>>> understandings to guide us symbolically AND rhythmically > > > >> > >>>>>> co-creatively inventing AND discovering [both/and] "third > > > >> spaces" > > > >> > >>>>>> AS potentially liberating contexts. > > > >> > >>>>>> > > > >> > >>>>>> Sanders understands palpable rhythmic resonance as one of > two > > > >> > >>>>>> basic "principles" of all human interaction. Jessica's > > project > > > >> > >>>>>> is to underline this aspect of rhythmic resonance as primal > > in > > > >> > >>>>>> understanding the notion > > > >> > >>>>> of > > > >> > >>>>>> "recognition". > > > >> > >>>>>> As the way through and beyond complimentary "twoness" of > doer > > > >> > >>>>>> and done > > > >> > >>>>> to > > > >> > >>>>>> or giver and given toperson must experience a palpable > > > >> "witnessing" > > > >> > >>>>> within > > > >> > >>>>>> thirdness. > > > >> > >>>>>> THIS is an intersubjective way of understanding thirdness > > > >> > >>>>>> > > > >> > >>>>> > > > >> > >>>>> > > > >> > >>>>> > > > >> > >>>>> -- > > > >> > >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural > science > > > >> > >>>>> as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > >> > >>>>> > > > >> > >>>> ________________________________ > > > >> > >>>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > > >> > >>>> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> This email and any files with it are confidential and > intended > > > >> > >>>> solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. > If > > > >> > >>>> you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution > > or > > > >> > >>>> other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited > > and > > > >> > >>>> you should not rely on > > > >> > >>> it. > > > >> > >>>> If you have received this email in error please let the > sender > > > >> > >>>> know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet > > > >> > >>>> emails are not necessarily secure. 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Nothing in this email or its attachments > > > >> > >> constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by > > an > > > >> official order form. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > --- > > > >> > Este email foi escaneado pelo Avast antiv?rus. > > > >> > http://www.avast.com > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > ________________________________ > > > >> > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > > >> > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > >> > > > > >> > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended > > solely > > > >> > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are > not > > > >> > the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of > > the > > > >> > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not > rely > > > on > > > >> it. > > > >> > If you have received this email in error please let the sender > know > > > >> > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are > > not > > > >> > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > > > >> > accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your > responsibility > > to > > > >> > scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not > > accept > > > >> > responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in > > this > > > >> > email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or > services > > > >> > unless accompanied by an official order form. > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> ________________________________ > > > >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > > >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > >> > > > >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended > solely > > > for > > > >> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > > > >> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > > > >> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely > > on > > > it. > > > >> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > > >> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are > not > > > >> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > > > accepts > > > >> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan > > > emails > > > >> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > > > responsibility > > > >> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > > > >> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless > > > accompanied > > > >> by an official order form. > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > for > > > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > > > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > > > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > > it. > > > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > > > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > accepts > > > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan > > emails > > > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > responsibility > > > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > > > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless > accompanied > > > by an official order form. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From goncu@uic.edu Wed Jan 21 18:53:20 2015 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 20:53:20 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] Message-ID: Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can either write to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will forward them to him. Best, ag ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary From: "Larry Nucci" Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" "Cynthia Garcia Coll" "Goncu, Artin" "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no" "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu" "Prof. C.J. Howe" "Lewis, Charlie" "Melanie A. Killen" "willis.overton@temple.edu" "Barbara Rogoff" "Ruck, Martin" "Geoffrey B. SAXE" "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr" "Elsbeth Stern" "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp" "tomas@eva.mpg.de" "Elliot TURIEL" "Stella Vosniadou" "Cecilia Wainryb" "Youniss, James" "silviar@servidor.unam.mx" "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp" "Phil Zelazo" "Susan Rivera" "Na',ilah Nasir" "Terezinha Nunes" "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov" "Deborah Powers" "judith.smetana@rochester.edu" "Alexandra M. Freund" "David Witherington" Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. As many of you know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned scientific publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human Development. I recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that is connected with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special occasion. Please take a moment to read her request, and send any suggestions for such highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather together your suggestions and send them to her. With best regards, Larry Dear Professor Nucci, Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor of Human Development, for your input and advice. As you may already know, Karger Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To mark this occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of the ordinary. When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, English wasn't the scientific ???lingua franca???. This is a relatively recent phenomenon, many great scientists published their work in other languages. Good translations are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. Being able to understand the meaning of what the original author wrote and this often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is surely of vital importance. During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a "collection" of the most significant scientific work that was not originally published in English and make a corresponding collection of translations available to the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal to you to help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most important articles in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us know a handful of the most significant papers in your field of expertise not available in English *(naming author, title and wherever possible, the source), we will check whether a translation of suitable quality already exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an english translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering work (Versuche ??ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable starting point in time. We do hope that you can participate with us together in what should hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the profile of milestones in science and making these more accessible, should benefit all. -- Larry Nucci Graduate School of Education Cognition and Development 4609 Tolman #1670 University of California Berkeley, CA 94720-1670 Artin Goncu, Ph.D Co-editor, Mind, Culture, and Activity:An International Journal Professor Emeritus, University of Illinois at Chicago College of Education M/C 147 1040 W. Harrison St. Chicago, IL 60607 -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: untitled-[2] Url: https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150121/06c52608/attachment.pl From ablunden@mira.net Wed Jan 21 19:03:44 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 14:03:44 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> Perhaps one of the papers by Luria which Mike has in his collection: http://luria.ucsd.edu/Articles-by-Luria/Luria-by-Language.html Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Goncu, Artin wrote: > Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can either write > to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will forward > them to him. Best, ag > > > ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- > Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary > From: "Larry Nucci" > Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm > To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" > "Cynthia Garcia Coll" > "Goncu, Artin" > "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no" > "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu" > "Prof. C.J. Howe" > "Lewis, Charlie" > "Melanie A. Killen" > "willis.overton@temple.edu" > "Barbara Rogoff" > "Ruck, Martin" > "Geoffrey B. SAXE" > "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr" > > "Elsbeth Stern" > "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp" > "tomas@eva.mpg.de" > "Elliot TURIEL" > "Stella Vosniadou" > "Cecilia Wainryb" > "Youniss, James" > "silviar@servidor.unam.mx" > "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp" > "Phil Zelazo" > "Susan Rivera" > "Na',ilah Nasir" > "Terezinha Nunes" > "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov" > "Deborah Powers" > "judith.smetana@rochester.edu" > "Alexandra M. Freund" > "David Witherington" > Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - > > This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. As many of you > know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned scientific > publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human Development. I > recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that is connected > with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special occasion. > Please take a moment to read her request, and send any suggestions for such > highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather together > your suggestions and send them to her. > > > With best regards, > > Larry > > Dear Professor Nucci, > > Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor of Human > Development, for your input and advice. As you may already know, Karger > Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To mark this > occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of the ordinary. > When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, English wasn't the > scientific ???lingua franca???. This is a relatively recent phenomenon, many > great scientists published their work in other languages. Good translations > are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. Being able to > understand the meaning of what the original author wrote and this > often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is surely of vital > importance. > > During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a "collection" > of the most significant scientific work that was not originally published > in English and make a corresponding collection of translations available to > the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal to you to > help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most important articles > in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us know a > handful of the most significant papers in your field of expertise not > available in English *(naming author, title and wherever possible, the > source), we will check whether a translation of suitable quality already > exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an english > translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering work (Versuche > ??ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable starting point in > time. > > We do hope that you can participate with us together in what should > hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the profile of > milestones in science and making these more accessible, should benefit all. > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Jan 21 19:36:52 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 19:36:52 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> Message-ID: My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and his colleagues between roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. Anyone able to identify things they would like to read? I will try to go back and check out my own wish list. If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, it might facilitate. We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. mike On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Perhaps one of the papers by Luria which Mike has in his collection: > http://luria.ucsd.edu/Articles-by-Luria/Luria-by-Language.html > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Goncu, Artin wrote: > >> Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can either write >> to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will forward >> them to him. Best, ag >> >> >> ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- >> Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary >> From: "Larry Nucci" >> Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm >> To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" >> "Cynthia Garcia Coll" >> "Goncu, Artin" >> "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no" >> "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu" >> "Prof. C.J. Howe" >> "Lewis, Charlie" >> "Melanie A. Killen" >> "willis.overton@temple.edu" >> "Barbara Rogoff" >> "Ruck, Martin" >> "Geoffrey B. SAXE" >> "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr" >> >> "Elsbeth Stern" >> "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp" >> "tomas@eva.mpg.de" >> "Elliot TURIEL" >> "Stella Vosniadou" >> "Cecilia Wainryb" >> "Youniss, James" >> "silviar@servidor.unam.mx" >> "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp" >> "Phil Zelazo" >> "Susan Rivera" >> "Na',ilah Nasir" >> "Terezinha Nunes" >> "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov" >> "Deborah Powers" >> "judith.smetana@rochester.edu" >> "Alexandra M. Freund" >> "David Witherington" >> Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> -------------- >> >> Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - >> >> This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. As many of >> you >> know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned scientific >> publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human Development. I >> recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that is >> connected >> with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special occasion. >> Please take a moment to read her request, and send any suggestions for >> such >> highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather together >> your suggestions and send them to her. >> >> >> With best regards, >> >> Larry >> >> Dear Professor Nucci, >> >> Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor of Human >> Development, for your input and advice. As you may already know, Karger >> Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To mark this >> occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of the ordinary. >> When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, English wasn't >> the >> scientific ???lingua franca?? . This is a relatively recent phenomenon, >> many >> great scientists published their work in other languages. Good >> translations >> are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. Being able to >> understand the meaning of what the original author wrote and this >> often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is surely of >> vital >> importance. >> >> During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a "collection" >> of the most significant scientific work that was not originally published >> in English and make a corresponding collection of translations available >> to >> the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal to you to >> help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most important >> articles >> in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us know a >> handful of the most significant papers in your field of expertise not >> available in English *(naming author, title and wherever possible, the >> source), we will check whether a translation of suitable quality already >> exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an english >> translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering work (Versuche >> ??ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable starting point >> in >> time. >> >> We do hope that you can participate with us together in what should >> hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the profile of >> milestones in science and making these more accessible, should benefit >> all. >> >> >> > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jan 21 19:48:24 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 03:48:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net>, Message-ID: <1421898503710.34580@unm.edu> How about Shif? or K?hler? And maybe something from the Gestalt School? Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 8:36 PM To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and his colleagues between roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. Anyone able to identify things they would like to read? I will try to go back and check out my own wish list. If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, it might facilitate. We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. mike From goncu@uic.edu Wed Jan 21 20:10:34 2015 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 22:10:34 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> Message-ID: Sounds great, ag On Wed, January 21, 2015 9:36 pm, mike cole wrote: > My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and his > colleagues between > roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. Anyone able to identify things > they would like > to read? I will try to go back and check out my own wish list. > > If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, it might > facilitate. > We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. > > mike > > > > On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Perhaps one of the papers by Luria which Mike has in his collection: >> http://luria.ucsd.edu/Articles-by-Luria/Luria-by-Language.html >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> Goncu, Artin wrote: >> >>> Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can either >>> write >>> to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will forward >>> them to him. Best, ag >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------- Original Message >>> ---------------------------- >>> Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary >>> From: "Larry Nucci" >>> Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm >>> To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" >>> "Cynthia Garcia Coll" >>> "Goncu, Artin" >>> "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no" >>> "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu" >>> "Prof. C.J. Howe" >>> "Lewis, Charlie" >>> "Melanie A. Killen" >>> "willis.overton@temple.edu" >>> "Barbara Rogoff" >>> "Ruck, Martin" >>> "Geoffrey B. SAXE" >>> "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr" >>> >>> "Elsbeth Stern" >>> "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp" >>> "tomas@eva.mpg.de" >>> "Elliot TURIEL" >>> "Stella Vosniadou" >>> "Cecilia Wainryb" >>> "Youniss, James" >>> "silviar@servidor.unam.mx" >>> "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp" >>> "Phil Zelazo" >>> "Susan Rivera" >>> "Na',ilah Nasir" >>> "Terezinha Nunes" >>> "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov" >>> "Deborah Powers" >>> "judith.smetana@rochester.edu" >>> "Alexandra M. Freund" >>> "David Witherington" >>> Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> -------------- >>> >>> Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - >>> >>> This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. As many of >>> you >>> know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned scientific >>> publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human Development. >>> I >>> recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that is >>> connected >>> with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special occasion. >>> Please take a moment to read her request, and send any suggestions for >>> such >>> highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather together >>> your suggestions and send them to her. >>> >>> >>> With best regards, >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> Dear Professor Nucci, >>> >>> Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor of Human >>> Development, for your input and advice. As you may already know, Karger >>> Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To mark this >>> occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of the >>> ordinary. >>> When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, English wasn't >>> the >>> scientific ???????lingua franca????? . This is a relatively recent >>> phenomenon, >>> many >>> great scientists published their work in other languages. Good >>> translations >>> are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. Being able to >>> understand the meaning of what the original author wrote and this >>> often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is surely of >>> vital >>> importance. >>> >>> During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a >>> "collection" >>> of the most significant scientific work that was not originally >>> published >>> in English and make a corresponding collection of translations >>> available >>> to >>> the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal to you to >>> help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most important >>> articles >>> in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us know a >>> handful of the most significant papers in your field of expertise not >>> available in English *(naming author, title and wherever possible, the >>> source), we will check whether a translation of suitable quality >>> already >>> exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an english >>> translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering work >>> (Versuche >>> ????ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable starting >>> point >>> in >>> time. >>> >>> We do hope that you can participate with us together in what should >>> hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the profile of >>> milestones in science and making these more accessible, should benefit >>> all. >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D Co-editor, Mind, Culture, and Activity:An International Journal Professor Emeritus, University of Illinois at Chicago College of Education M/C 147 1040 W. Harrison St. Chicago, IL 60607 From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Jan 21 20:43:38 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 20:43:38 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: <1421898503710.34580@unm.edu> References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> <1421898503710.34580@unm.edu> Message-ID: Unpublished (in English) byGermans. Sniff was Russian I believe, and one would need to find unpublished works by Kohler. Mike On Wednesday, January 21, 2015, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > How about Shif? or K?hler? And maybe something from the Gestalt School? > > Annalisa > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole < > mcole@ucsd.edu > > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 8:36 PM > To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th > anniversary] > > My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and his > colleagues between > roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. Anyone able to identify things > they would like > to read? I will try to go back and check out my own wish list. > > If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, it might > facilitate. > We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. > > mike > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Jan 22 03:25:53 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 11:25:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> <1421898503710.34580@unm.edu> Message-ID: It looks like the actual brief is for important papers not originally published in English, but that G. Karger was asking L. Nucci for papers unavailable in English (which is a more restrictive requirement). For accessibility, something from P.I. Zinchenko on the structure of activity manifest in memory might be a way to deal with the concept of activity problem. I believe some of his papers remain untranslated. Huw On 22 January 2015 at 04:43, mike cole wrote: > Unpublished (in English) byGermans. Sniff was Russian I believe, and one > would need to find unpublished works by Kohler. > Mike > On Wednesday, January 21, 2015, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > How about Shif? or K?hler? And maybe something from the Gestalt School? > > > > Annalisa > > > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole < > > mcole@ucsd.edu > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 8:36 PM > > To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th > > anniversary] > > > > My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and his > > colleagues between > > roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. Anyone able to identify > things > > they would like > > to read? I will try to go back and check out my own wish list. > > > > If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, it might > > facilitate. > > We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. > > > > mike > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From ablunden@mira.net Thu Jan 22 04:01:42 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 23:01:42 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> Message-ID: <54C0E6A6.2030008@mira.net> Pierre Janet, L??volution de la m?moire et de la notion du temps, CHahine, Paris, 1928. http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/janet_pierre/evolution_memoire_temps/evolution_memoire.html Une ?dition ?lectronique r?alis?e ? partir du livre de Pierre Janet (1859-1947) (philosophe devenu m?decin et psychologue), L'?volution de la m?moire et de la notion du temps. (1928). Compte rendu int?gral des conf?rences faites en 1928 au Coll?ge de France d'apr?s les notes st?nographiques. Coll?ge de France, Chaire de psychologie exp?rimentale et compar?e. Tome III: L'organisation du temps. Paris, ?ditions Chahine, 1928, pp. 419 ? 624. That's more than 100 pages, so that is probably too much. The only work of Janet's that has been published in English is a series of lectures he gave in the US. According to the Soviet editors of LSVCW, although Vygotsky rarely quoted Janet, there is reason to believe he was influenced by him. These editors point to AN Leontyev's 1931 article on memory as drawing on Janet's work as mentioned above. Here's Wikipedia on Janet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Janet Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and his > colleagues between > roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. Anyone able to identify > things they would like > to read? I will try to go back and check out my own wish list. > > If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, it > might facilitate. > We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. > > mike > > > > On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Perhaps one of the papers by Luria which Mike has in his collection: > http://luria.ucsd.edu/Articles-by-Luria/Luria-by-Language.html > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > Goncu, Artin wrote: > > Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can > either write > to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will > forward > them to him. Best, ag > > > ---------------------------- Original Message > ---------------------------- > Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary > From: "Larry Nucci" > > Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm > To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" > > "Cynthia Garcia Coll" > > "Goncu, Artin" > > "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no > " > > "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu > " > > "Prof. C.J. Howe" > > "Lewis, Charlie" > > "Melanie A. Killen" > > "willis.overton@temple.edu > " > > "Barbara Rogoff" > > "Ruck, Martin" > > "Geoffrey B. SAXE" > > "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr > " > > > "Elsbeth Stern" > > "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp > " > > "tomas@eva.mpg.de " > > > "Elliot TURIEL" > > "Stella Vosniadou" > > "Cecilia Wainryb" > > "Youniss, James" > > "silviar@servidor.unam.mx > " > > "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp > " > > > "Phil Zelazo" > > "Susan Rivera" > > "Na',ilah Nasir" > > "Terezinha Nunes" > > "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov > " > > "Deborah Powers" > > "judith.smetana@rochester.edu > " > > > "Alexandra M. Freund" > > "David Witherington" > > Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - > > This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. > As many of you > know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned scientific > publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human > Development. I > recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that > is connected > with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special > occasion. > Please take a moment to read her request, and send any > suggestions for such > highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather > together > your suggestions and send them to her. > > > With best regards, > > Larry > > Dear Professor Nucci, > > Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor > of Human > Development, for your input and advice. As you may already > know, Karger > Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To > mark this > occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of > the ordinary. > When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, > English wasn't the > scientific ???lingua franca?? . This is a relatively recent > phenomenon, many > great scientists published their work in other languages. Good > translations > are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. Being able to > understand the meaning of what the original author wrote and this > often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is > surely of vital > importance. > > During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a > "collection" > of the most significant scientific work that was not > originally published > in English and make a corresponding collection of translations > available to > the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal > to you to > help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most > important articles > in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us > know a > handful of the most significant papers in your field of > expertise not > available in English *(naming author, title and wherever > possible, the > source), we will check whether a translation of suitable > quality already > exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an > english > translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering > work (Versuche > ??ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable > starting point in > time. > > We do hope that you can participate with us together in what > should > hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the > profile of > milestones in science and making these more accessible, should > benefit all. > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Jan 22 04:11:29 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 12:11:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: <54C0E6A6.2030008@mira.net> References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> <54C0E6A6.2030008@mira.net> Message-ID: Yes, I would like to read that. On 22 January 2015 at 12:01, Andy Blunden wrote: > Pierre Janet, L??volution de la m?moire et de la notion du temps, CHahine, > Paris, 1928. > http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/janet_pierre/evolution_memoire_temps/ > evolution_memoire.html > Une ?dition ?lectronique r?alis?e ? partir du livre de Pierre Janet > (1859-1947) (philosophe devenu m?decin et psychologue), L'?volution de la > m?moire et de la notion du temps. (1928). Compte rendu int?gral des > conf?rences faites en 1928 au Coll?ge de France d'apr?s les notes > st?nographiques. Coll?ge de France, Chaire de psychologie exp?rimentale et > compar?e. Tome III: L'organisation du temps. Paris, ?ditions Chahine, 1928, > pp. 419 ? 624. That's more than 100 pages, so that is probably too much. > > The only work of Janet's that has been published in English is a series of > lectures he gave in the US. > According to the Soviet editors of LSVCW, although Vygotsky rarely quoted > Janet, there is reason to believe he was influenced by him. These editors > point to AN Leontyev's 1931 article on memory as drawing on Janet's work as > mentioned above. > Here's Wikipedia on Janet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Janet > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: > >> My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and his >> colleagues between >> roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. Anyone able to identify >> things they would like >> to read? I will try to go back and check out my own wish list. >> >> If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, it might >> facilitate. >> We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. >> >> mike >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Andy Blunden > ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> Perhaps one of the papers by Luria which Mike has in his collection: >> http://luria.ucsd.edu/Articles-by-Luria/Luria-by-Language.html >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> Goncu, Artin wrote: >> >> Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can >> either write >> to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will >> forward >> them to him. Best, ag >> >> >> ---------------------------- Original Message >> ---------------------------- >> Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary >> From: "Larry Nucci" > > >> Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm >> To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" > > >> "Cynthia Garcia Coll" > > >> "Goncu, Artin" > >> "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no >> " > > >> "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu >> " > > >> "Prof. C.J. Howe" > > >> "Lewis, Charlie" > > >> "Melanie A. Killen" > > >> "willis.overton@temple.edu >> " > > >> "Barbara Rogoff" > > >> "Ruck, Martin" > > >> "Geoffrey B. SAXE" > > >> "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr >> " >> > > >> "Elsbeth Stern" > > >> "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp >> " > > >> "tomas@eva.mpg.de " >> > >> "Elliot TURIEL" > > >> "Stella Vosniadou" > > >> "Cecilia Wainryb" > > >> "Youniss, James" > > >> "silviar@servidor.unam.mx >> " > > >> "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp >> " >> > >> "Phil Zelazo" > >> "Susan Rivera" > > >> "Na',ilah Nasir" > > >> "Terezinha Nunes" > > >> "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov >> " > > >> "Deborah Powers" > > >> "judith.smetana@rochester.edu >> " >> > > >> "Alexandra M. Freund" > > >> "David Witherington" > > >> Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> -------------- >> >> >> Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - >> >> This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. >> As many of you >> know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned scientific >> publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human >> Development. I >> recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that >> is connected >> with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special >> occasion. >> Please take a moment to read her request, and send any >> suggestions for such >> highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather >> together >> your suggestions and send them to her. >> >> >> With best regards, >> >> Larry >> >> Dear Professor Nucci, >> >> Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor >> of Human >> Development, for your input and advice. As you may already >> know, Karger >> Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To >> mark this >> occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of >> the ordinary. >> When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, >> English wasn't the >> scientific ???lingua franca?? . This is a relatively recent >> phenomenon, many >> great scientists published their work in other languages. Good >> translations >> are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. Being able to >> understand the meaning of what the original author wrote and this >> often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is >> surely of vital >> importance. >> >> During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a >> "collection" >> of the most significant scientific work that was not >> originally published >> in English and make a corresponding collection of translations >> available to >> the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal >> to you to >> help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most >> important articles >> in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us >> know a >> handful of the most significant papers in your field of >> expertise not >> available in English *(naming author, title and wherever >> possible, the >> source), we will check whether a translation of suitable >> quality already >> exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an >> english >> translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering >> work (Versuche >> ??ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable >> starting point in >> time. >> >> We do hope that you can participate with us together in what >> should >> hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the >> profile of >> milestones in science and making these more accessible, should >> benefit all. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Thu Jan 22 04:49:24 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 23:49:24 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: <54C0E6A6.2030008@mira.net> References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> <54C0E6A6.2030008@mira.net> Message-ID: <54C0F1D4.4060303@mira.net> Looks like Janet never wrote anything under 500pp so it would have to be an excerpt. Luria's "Mind and Brain" (1964) is only 11 pages. So far as I know it has not been translated into English. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Andy Blunden wrote: > Pierre Janet, L??volution de la m?moire et de la notion du temps, > CHahine, Paris, 1928. > http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/janet_pierre/evolution_memoire_temps/evolution_memoire.html > > Une ?dition ?lectronique r?alis?e ? partir du livre de Pierre Janet > (1859-1947) (philosophe devenu m?decin et psychologue), L'?volution de > la m?moire et de la notion du temps. (1928). Compte rendu int?gral des > conf?rences faites en 1928 au Coll?ge de France d'apr?s les notes > st?nographiques. Coll?ge de France, Chaire de psychologie > exp?rimentale et compar?e. Tome III: L'organisation du temps. Paris, > ?ditions Chahine, 1928, pp. 419 ? 624. That's more than 100 pages, so > that is probably too much. > > The only work of Janet's that has been published in English is a > series of lectures he gave in the US. > According to the Soviet editors of LSVCW, although Vygotsky rarely > quoted Janet, there is reason to believe he was influenced by him. > These editors point to AN Leontyev's 1931 article on memory as drawing > on Janet's work as mentioned above. > Here's Wikipedia on Janet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Janet > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: >> My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and his >> colleagues between >> roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. Anyone able to identify >> things they would like >> to read? I will try to go back and check out my own wish list. >> >> If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, it >> might facilitate. >> We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. >> >> mike >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: >> >> Perhaps one of the papers by Luria which Mike has in his collection: >> http://luria.ucsd.edu/Articles-by-Luria/Luria-by-Language.html >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> Goncu, Artin wrote: >> >> Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can >> either write >> to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will >> forward >> them to him. Best, ag >> >> >> ---------------------------- Original Message >> ---------------------------- >> Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th >> anniversary >> From: "Larry Nucci" > > >> Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm >> To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" > > >> "Cynthia Garcia Coll" > > >> "Goncu, Artin" > >> "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no >> " > > >> "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu >> " > > >> "Prof. C.J. Howe" > > >> "Lewis, Charlie" > > >> "Melanie A. Killen" > > >> "willis.overton@temple.edu >> " > > >> "Barbara Rogoff" > > >> "Ruck, Martin" > > >> "Geoffrey B. SAXE" > > >> "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr >> " >> > > >> "Elsbeth Stern" > > >> "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp >> " > > >> "tomas@eva.mpg.de " >> > >> "Elliot TURIEL" > > >> "Stella Vosniadou" > > >> "Cecilia Wainryb" > > >> "Youniss, James" > > >> "silviar@servidor.unam.mx >> " > > >> "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp >> " >> > >> "Phil Zelazo" > >> "Susan Rivera" > > >> "Na',ilah Nasir" > > >> "Terezinha Nunes" > > >> "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov >> " > > >> "Deborah Powers" > > >> "judith.smetana@rochester.edu >> " >> > > >> "Alexandra M. Freund" > > >> "David Witherington" > > >> Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" > > >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - >> >> This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. >> As many of you >> know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned scientific >> publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human >> Development. I >> recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that >> is connected >> with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special >> occasion. >> Please take a moment to read her request, and send any >> suggestions for such >> highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather >> together >> your suggestions and send them to her. >> >> >> With best regards, >> >> Larry >> >> Dear Professor Nucci, >> >> Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor >> of Human >> Development, for your input and advice. As you may already >> know, Karger >> Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To >> mark this >> occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of >> the ordinary. >> When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, >> English wasn't the >> scientific ???lingua franca?? . This is a relatively recent >> phenomenon, many >> great scientists published their work in other languages. Good >> translations >> are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. Being >> able to >> understand the meaning of what the original author wrote and >> this >> often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is >> surely of vital >> importance. >> >> During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a >> "collection" >> of the most significant scientific work that was not >> originally published >> in English and make a corresponding collection of translations >> available to >> the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal >> to you to >> help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most >> important articles >> in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us >> know a >> handful of the most significant papers in your field of >> expertise not >> available in English *(naming author, title and wherever >> possible, the >> source), we will check whether a translation of suitable >> quality already >> exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an >> english >> translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering >> work (Versuche >> ??ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable >> starting point in >> time. >> >> We do hope that you can participate with us together in what >> should >> hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the >> profile of >> milestones in science and making these more accessible, should >> benefit all. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jan 22 09:25:30 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 09:25:30 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: <54C0E6A6.2030008@mira.net> References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> <54C0E6A6.2030008@mira.net> Message-ID: Ah! I misunderstood. So ANY non-English work. Then Shif would be fine if there is an important unpublished piece. Attached is an article with a reference to our very on Peter S and a reference to the work of Lazursky. If there was a chapter from the following book, or an article, it might be really interesting. mike Lazursky, A. F. (1918). Estestvennii eksperiment i ego shkol?noje primenenije [A natural experiment and its school application]. Petrograd: Tipographija Rikkera. On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:01 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Pierre Janet, L??volution de la m?moire et de la notion du temps, CHahine, > Paris, 1928. > http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/janet_pierre/evolution_memoire_temps/ > evolution_memoire.html > Une ?dition ?lectronique r?alis?e ? partir du livre de Pierre Janet > (1859-1947) (philosophe devenu m?decin et psychologue), L'?volution de la > m?moire et de la notion du temps. (1928). Compte rendu int?gral des > conf?rences faites en 1928 au Coll?ge de France d'apr?s les notes > st?nographiques. Coll?ge de France, Chaire de psychologie exp?rimentale et > compar?e. Tome III: L'organisation du temps. Paris, ?ditions Chahine, 1928, > pp. 419 ? 624. That's more than 100 pages, so that is probably too much. > > The only work of Janet's that has been published in English is a series of > lectures he gave in the US. > According to the Soviet editors of LSVCW, although Vygotsky rarely quoted > Janet, there is reason to believe he was influenced by him. These editors > point to AN Leontyev's 1931 article on memory as drawing on Janet's work as > mentioned above. > Here's Wikipedia on Janet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Janet > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: > >> My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and his >> colleagues between >> roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. Anyone able to identify >> things they would like >> to read? I will try to go back and check out my own wish list. >> >> If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, it might >> facilitate. >> We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. >> >> mike >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Andy Blunden > ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> Perhaps one of the papers by Luria which Mike has in his collection: >> http://luria.ucsd.edu/Articles-by-Luria/Luria-by-Language.html >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> Goncu, Artin wrote: >> >> Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can >> either write >> to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will >> forward >> them to him. Best, ag >> >> >> ---------------------------- Original Message >> ---------------------------- >> Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary >> From: "Larry Nucci" > > >> Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm >> To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" > > >> "Cynthia Garcia Coll" > > >> "Goncu, Artin" > >> "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no >> " > > >> "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu >> " > > >> "Prof. C.J. Howe" > > >> "Lewis, Charlie" > > >> "Melanie A. Killen" > > >> "willis.overton@temple.edu >> " > > >> "Barbara Rogoff" > > >> "Ruck, Martin" > > >> "Geoffrey B. SAXE" > > >> "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr >> " >> > > >> "Elsbeth Stern" > > >> "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp >> " > > >> "tomas@eva.mpg.de " >> > >> "Elliot TURIEL" > > >> "Stella Vosniadou" > > >> "Cecilia Wainryb" > > >> "Youniss, James" > > >> "silviar@servidor.unam.mx >> " > > >> "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp >> " >> > >> "Phil Zelazo" > >> "Susan Rivera" > > >> "Na',ilah Nasir" > > >> "Terezinha Nunes" > > >> "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov >> " > > >> "Deborah Powers" > > >> "judith.smetana@rochester.edu >> " >> > > >> "Alexandra M. Freund" > > >> "David Witherington" > > >> Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> -------------- >> >> Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - >> >> This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. >> As many of you >> know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned scientific >> publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human >> Development. I >> recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that >> is connected >> with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special >> occasion. >> Please take a moment to read her request, and send any >> suggestions for such >> highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather >> together >> your suggestions and send them to her. >> >> >> With best regards, >> >> Larry >> >> Dear Professor Nucci, >> >> Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor >> of Human >> Development, for your input and advice. As you may already >> know, Karger >> Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To >> mark this >> occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of >> the ordinary. >> When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, >> English wasn't the >> scientific ???lingua franca?? . This is a relatively recent >> phenomenon, many >> great scientists published their work in other languages. Good >> translations >> are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. Being able to >> understand the meaning of what the original author wrote and this >> often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is >> surely of vital >> importance. >> >> During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a >> "collection" >> of the most significant scientific work that was not >> originally published >> in English and make a corresponding collection of translations >> available to >> the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal >> to you to >> help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most >> important articles >> in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us >> know a >> handful of the most significant papers in your field of >> expertise not >> available in English *(naming author, title and wherever >> possible, the >> source), we will check whether a translation of suitable >> quality already >> exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an >> english >> translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering >> work (Versuche >> ??ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable >> starting point in >> time. >> >> We do hope that you can participate with us together in what >> should >> hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the >> profile of >> milestones in science and making these more accessible, should >> benefit all. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: minkova.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 428680 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150122/5134df8a/attachment.pdf From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jan 22 10:09:02 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 18:09:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Notes on Blindness Message-ID: <1421950142186.25490@unm.edu> Hello! Thought I would add another viewing experience to the mix! How does one explain blindness visually? http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/01/16/opinion/16OpDoc-NotesOnBlindness.html The dramatizations are very wonderful, full of thought and affect combined, which makes it very real, very human. I never thought about rain this way!? It's 12 minutes long with an accompanying article about the making of the video. Apparently there is a full-length film in the making right now! Kind regards, Annalisa From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Jan 22 12:26:51 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 13:26:51 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Notes on Blindness In-Reply-To: <1421950142186.25490@unm.edu> References: <1421950142186.25490@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, this was a fantastic video (great lunchtime viewing!). Sights and sounds of cinematographers who are extremely gifted. A few tidbits that struck me: First, the fact that it was pictures and not people that he remembered. Seems something to do with the complexity of the image of a person in motion, alive, moving, unfixed, with shades and textures constantly changing. The fixed image of a picture is far superior for memorialization precisely because of its reduction of modality (and of its fixedness in time). Second, a quote from his wife about her husband's loss of vision: "I can't look into his eyes and be seen. There's no 'beholding' in that sense of being held in somebody's look. And I think, when you're very close to somebody, that is a huge loss." and from him: "To be seen is to exist." This suggests that seeing has a constitutive power. To see is to make (or rather, in both cases above, to be seen is to be made (cf. Bakhtin's notion of "consummation"). [I should add that this is elegantly put by both Hull and his wife, but I wonder if this sense of loss and non-existence in blindness has something to do with his having seen and lost sight. I suspect it is somewhat different for someone who has never seen, or even someone who has never seen and then is able to see (there are many stories of such persons that are equally as tragic, if not more tragic, than Hull's story - upon gaining site, they are thrown into a world that is incomprehensible to them - again, the power of reduction...). Regardless, it seems that in this narrative there is a privileging of the "ocular" above all other possible modes through which one could come to be recognized (colloquially "seen") as being a rich individual. This is why a larger category, such as "recognition", is needed. In a given culture the ocular one may be dominant, but that isn't to say that it is the only way of being made... And I really liked Hull's description of rain: "Rain brings out the contours of what's around you in that it introduces a continuous blanket of differentiated and specialized sound. Uninterrupted. which fills the whole of the audible environment. If only there could be something equivalent to rain falling inside. Then the whole of a room would take on shape and dimension. I should also say that this is an experience of beauty. Instead of being isolated, cut off, preoccupied, internally, you are presented with a world. You are related to a world. You are addressed by a world." I have a vague recollection of once experiencing the rain like that.... -greg On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello! > > > Thought I would add another viewing experience to the mix! > > > How does one explain blindness visually? > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/01/16/opinion/16OpDoc-NotesOnBlindness.html > < > http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/01/16/opinion/16OpDoc-NotesOnBlindness.html?smid=tw-nytimes&_r=1 > > > > > The dramatizations are very wonderful, full of thought and affect > combined, which makes it very real, very human. I never thought about rain > this way!? > > > It's 12 minutes long with an accompanying article about the making of the > video. Apparently there is a full-length film in the making right now! > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Jan 22 12:47:04 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 13:47:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] another worthwhile read Message-ID: Along with the Alice Goffman book On The Run, this book is an important read for anyone interested in understanding what is going on in our inner-cities. http://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/R/bo15309863.html Laurence Ralph's Renegade Dreams: Living Through Injury in Gangland Chicago. Best, greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Jan 22 12:48:43 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 20:48:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> <54C0E6A6.2030008@mira.net> Message-ID: <3FEDDB54-DE45-466B-8D60-E7516D97C595@uniandes.edu.co> Something by Gustav Shpet? This, or an excerpt? Shpet, G. G. (2007). Vnutrenniaia forma slova [The inner form of the word]. In T. Shchedrina (Ed.), Gustav Shpet, Iskusstvo kak vid znaniia I (pp. 323-501). Moskva: Rosspen. Martin On Jan 22, 2015, at 12:25 PM, mike cole wrote: > Ah! I misunderstood. So ANY non-English work. > > Then Shif would be fine if there is an important unpublished piece. > Attached is an article with a reference to our very on Peter S and a > reference to the work of > Lazursky. If there was a chapter from the following book, or an article, > it might be really > interesting. > > mike > > Lazursky, A. F. (1918). Estestvennii eksperiment i ego shkol?noje > primenenije [A natural experiment and its school application]. > Petrograd: Tipographija Rikkera. > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:01 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Pierre Janet, L??volution de la m?moire et de la notion du temps, CHahine, >> Paris, 1928. >> http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/janet_pierre/evolution_memoire_temps/ >> evolution_memoire.html >> Une ?dition ?lectronique r?alis?e ? partir du livre de Pierre Janet >> (1859-1947) (philosophe devenu m?decin et psychologue), L'?volution de la >> m?moire et de la notion du temps. (1928). Compte rendu int?gral des >> conf?rences faites en 1928 au Coll?ge de France d'apr?s les notes >> st?nographiques. Coll?ge de France, Chaire de psychologie exp?rimentale et >> compar?e. Tome III: L'organisation du temps. Paris, ?ditions Chahine, 1928, >> pp. 419 ? 624. That's more than 100 pages, so that is probably too much. >> >> The only work of Janet's that has been published in English is a series of >> lectures he gave in the US. >> According to the Soviet editors of LSVCW, although Vygotsky rarely quoted >> Janet, there is reason to believe he was influenced by him. These editors >> point to AN Leontyev's 1931 article on memory as drawing on Janet's work as >> mentioned above. >> Here's Wikipedia on Janet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Janet >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >>> My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and his >>> colleagues between >>> roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. Anyone able to identify >>> things they would like >>> to read? I will try to go back and check out my own wish list. >>> >>> If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, it might >>> facilitate. >>> We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Andy Blunden >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >>> >>> Perhaps one of the papers by Luria which Mike has in his collection: >>> http://luria.ucsd.edu/Articles-by-Luria/Luria-by-Language.html >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> Goncu, Artin wrote: >>> >>> Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can >>> either write >>> to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will >>> forward >>> them to him. Best, ag >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------- Original Message >>> ---------------------------- >>> Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary >>> From: "Larry Nucci" >> > >>> Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm >>> To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" >> > >>> "Cynthia Garcia Coll" >> > >>> "Goncu, Artin" > >>> "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no >>> " >> > >>> "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu >>> " >> > >>> "Prof. C.J. Howe" >> > >>> "Lewis, Charlie" >> > >>> "Melanie A. Killen" >> > >>> "willis.overton@temple.edu >>> " >> > >>> "Barbara Rogoff" >> > >>> "Ruck, Martin" >> > >>> "Geoffrey B. SAXE" >> > >>> "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr >>> " >>> >> > >>> "Elsbeth Stern" >> > >>> "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp >>> " >> > >>> "tomas@eva.mpg.de " >>> > >>> "Elliot TURIEL" >> > >>> "Stella Vosniadou" >> > >>> "Cecilia Wainryb" >> > >>> "Youniss, James" >> > >>> "silviar@servidor.unam.mx >>> " >> > >>> "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp >>> " >>> > >>> "Phil Zelazo" > >>> "Susan Rivera" >> > >>> "Na',ilah Nasir" >> > >>> "Terezinha Nunes" >> > >>> "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov >>> " >> > >>> "Deborah Powers" >> > >>> "judith.smetana@rochester.edu >>> " >>> >> > >>> "Alexandra M. Freund" >> > >>> "David Witherington" >> > >>> Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" >> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> -------------- >>> >>> Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - >>> >>> This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. >>> As many of you >>> know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned scientific >>> publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human >>> Development. I >>> recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that >>> is connected >>> with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special >>> occasion. >>> Please take a moment to read her request, and send any >>> suggestions for such >>> highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather >>> together >>> your suggestions and send them to her. >>> >>> >>> With best regards, >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> Dear Professor Nucci, >>> >>> Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor >>> of Human >>> Development, for your input and advice. As you may already >>> know, Karger >>> Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To >>> mark this >>> occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of >>> the ordinary. >>> When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, >>> English wasn't the >>> scientific ???lingua franca?? . This is a relatively recent >>> phenomenon, many >>> great scientists published their work in other languages. Good >>> translations >>> are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. Being able to >>> understand the meaning of what the original author wrote and this >>> often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is >>> surely of vital >>> importance. >>> >>> During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a >>> "collection" >>> of the most significant scientific work that was not >>> originally published >>> in English and make a corresponding collection of translations >>> available to >>> the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal >>> to you to >>> help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most >>> important articles >>> in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us >>> know a >>> handful of the most significant papers in your field of >>> expertise not >>> available in English *(naming author, title and wherever >>> possible, the >>> source), we will check whether a translation of suitable >>> quality already >>> exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an >>> english >>> translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering >>> work (Versuche >>> ??ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable >>> starting point in >>> time. >>> >>> We do hope that you can participate with us together in what >>> should >>> hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the >>> profile of >>> milestones in science and making these more accessible, should >>> benefit all. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> >>> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From nataliag@sfu.ca Thu Jan 22 13:53:03 2015 From: nataliag@sfu.ca (Natalia Gajdamaschko) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 13:53:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: <3FEDDB54-DE45-466B-8D60-E7516D97C595@uniandes.edu.co> References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> <54C0E6A6.2030008@mira.net> <3FEDDB54-DE45-466B-8D60-E7516D97C595@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <1220797489.41460171.1421963583655.JavaMail.zimbra@sfu.ca> Hi Dear All, I'd signed up for ALL of your previous suggestions. And I'd add the names of 1) Pyotr Anokhin and 2) Nikolai Bernstein. In case of Bernstein, according to Wiki, there was a book published but long time ago: Bernstain Nikolai (1967). The Coordination and Regulation of Movements. Oxford: Pergamon Press. But it was a long time ago... Not sure about Anokhin. Cheers, Natalia. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin John Packer" To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 12:48:43 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] Something by Gustav Shpet? This, or an excerpt? Shpet, G. G. (2007). Vnutrenniaia forma slova [The inner form of the word]. In T. Shchedrina (Ed.), Gustav Shpet, Iskusstvo kak vid znaniia I (pp. 323-501). Moskva: Rosspen. Martin On Jan 22, 2015, at 12:25 PM, mike cole wrote: > Ah! I misunderstood. So ANY non-English work. > > Then Shif would be fine if there is an important unpublished piece. > Attached is an article with a reference to our very on Peter S and a > reference to the work of > Lazursky. If there was a chapter from the following book, or an article, > it might be really > interesting. > > mike > > Lazursky, A. F. (1918). Estestvennii eksperiment i ego shkol?noje > primenenije [A natural experiment and its school application]. > Petrograd: Tipographija Rikkera. > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:01 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Pierre Janet, L??volution de la m?moire et de la notion du temps, CHahine, >> Paris, 1928. >> http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/janet_pierre/evolution_memoire_temps/ >> evolution_memoire.html >> Une ?dition ?lectronique r?alis?e ? partir du livre de Pierre Janet >> (1859-1947) (philosophe devenu m?decin et psychologue), L'?volution de la >> m?moire et de la notion du temps. (1928). Compte rendu int?gral des >> conf?rences faites en 1928 au Coll?ge de France d'apr?s les notes >> st?nographiques. Coll?ge de France, Chaire de psychologie exp?rimentale et >> compar?e. Tome III: L'organisation du temps. Paris, ?ditions Chahine, 1928, >> pp. 419 ? 624. That's more than 100 pages, so that is probably too much. >> >> The only work of Janet's that has been published in English is a series of >> lectures he gave in the US. >> According to the Soviet editors of LSVCW, although Vygotsky rarely quoted >> Janet, there is reason to believe he was influenced by him. These editors >> point to AN Leontyev's 1931 article on memory as drawing on Janet's work as >> mentioned above. >> Here's Wikipedia on Janet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Janet >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >>> My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and his >>> colleagues between >>> roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. Anyone able to identify >>> things they would like >>> to read? I will try to go back and check out my own wish list. >>> >>> If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, it might >>> facilitate. >>> We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Andy Blunden >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >>> >>> Perhaps one of the papers by Luria which Mike has in his collection: >>> http://luria.ucsd.edu/Articles-by-Luria/Luria-by-Language.html >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> Goncu, Artin wrote: >>> >>> Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can >>> either write >>> to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will >>> forward >>> them to him. Best, ag >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------- Original Message >>> ---------------------------- >>> Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary >>> From: "Larry Nucci" >> > >>> Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm >>> To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" >> > >>> "Cynthia Garcia Coll" >> > >>> "Goncu, Artin" > >>> "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no >>> " >> > >>> "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu >>> " >> > >>> "Prof. C.J. Howe" >> > >>> "Lewis, Charlie" >> > >>> "Melanie A. Killen" >> > >>> "willis.overton@temple.edu >>> " >> > >>> "Barbara Rogoff" >> > >>> "Ruck, Martin" >> > >>> "Geoffrey B. SAXE" >> > >>> "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr >>> " >>> >> > >>> "Elsbeth Stern" >> > >>> "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp >>> " >> > >>> "tomas@eva.mpg.de " >>> > >>> "Elliot TURIEL" >> > >>> "Stella Vosniadou" >> > >>> "Cecilia Wainryb" >> > >>> "Youniss, James" >> > >>> "silviar@servidor.unam.mx >>> " >> > >>> "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp >>> " >>> > >>> "Phil Zelazo" > >>> "Susan Rivera" >> > >>> "Na',ilah Nasir" >> > >>> "Terezinha Nunes" >> > >>> "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov >>> " >> > >>> "Deborah Powers" >> > >>> "judith.smetana@rochester.edu >>> " >>> >> > >>> "Alexandra M. Freund" >> > >>> "David Witherington" >> > >>> Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" >> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> -------------- >>> >>> Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - >>> >>> This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. >>> As many of you >>> know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned scientific >>> publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human >>> Development. I >>> recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that >>> is connected >>> with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special >>> occasion. >>> Please take a moment to read her request, and send any >>> suggestions for such >>> highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather >>> together >>> your suggestions and send them to her. >>> >>> >>> With best regards, >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> Dear Professor Nucci, >>> >>> Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor >>> of Human >>> Development, for your input and advice. As you may already >>> know, Karger >>> Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To >>> mark this >>> occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of >>> the ordinary. >>> When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, >>> English wasn't the >>> scientific ???lingua franca?? . This is a relatively recent >>> phenomenon, many >>> great scientists published their work in other languages. Good >>> translations >>> are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. Being able to >>> understand the meaning of what the original author wrote and this >>> often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is >>> surely of vital >>> importance. >>> >>> During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a >>> "collection" >>> of the most significant scientific work that was not >>> originally published >>> in English and make a corresponding collection of translations >>> available to >>> the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal >>> to you to >>> help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most >>> important articles >>> in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us >>> know a >>> handful of the most significant papers in your field of >>> expertise not >>> available in English *(naming author, title and wherever >>> possible, the >>> source), we will check whether a translation of suitable >>> quality already >>> exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an >>> english >>> translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering >>> work (Versuche >>> ??ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable >>> starting point in >>> time. >>> >>> We do hope that you can participate with us together in what >>> should >>> hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the >>> profile of >>> milestones in science and making these more accessible, should >>> benefit all. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> >>> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jan 22 14:00:17 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 22:00:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Notes on Blindness In-Reply-To: References: <1421950142186.25490@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1421964016656.90429@unm.edu> Greg! Yes the piece is really great and well produced! If you read the article that accompanies the video on the Times page, the writers indicate that over time as he adjusted to blindness, he came to revel in the other senses to the point that when he was helping with the movie, he'd forgotten that he'd gone through that painful time, and apparently wasn't happy to revisit the memories. I think that is the point of the last scene with the rain (inside), to show that he began to "see" differently, with sound. Maybe? At least, that is how I interpreted it. I also thought, as you, it was remarkable that he remembered photographs, maybe these map in memory differently? Like you say because of reduction of modality? What also seems significant is that if we don't use those organs of perceptions we lose memories of those perceptions. Which may mean that memory is something that must be reconstructed with the organ somehow, even if we aren't using the organ to perceive externally while retrieval of the memory? I'm not sure I explained that very well? Kind regards, Annalisa From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Jan 22 16:35:50 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 00:35:50 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: <3FEDDB54-DE45-466B-8D60-E7516D97C595@uniandes.edu.co> References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> <54C0E6A6.2030008@mira.net> <3FEDDB54-DE45-466B-8D60-E7516D97C595@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: I was going to suggest that too :), but I thought I'd check the two JREEP issues (2000) on Shpet first. On 22 January 2015 at 20:48, Martin John Packer wrote: > Something by Gustav Shpet? This, or an excerpt? > > Shpet, G. G. (2007). Vnutrenniaia forma slova [The inner form of the > word]. In T. Shchedrina (Ed.), Gustav Shpet, Iskusstvo kak vid znaniia I > (pp. 323-501). Moskva: Rosspen. > > Martin > > > On Jan 22, 2015, at 12:25 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Ah! I misunderstood. So ANY non-English work. > > > > Then Shif would be fine if there is an important unpublished piece. > > Attached is an article with a reference to our very on Peter S and a > > reference to the work of > > Lazursky. If there was a chapter from the following book, or an article, > > it might be really > > interesting. > > > > mike > > > > Lazursky, A. F. (1918). Estestvennii eksperiment i ego shkol?noje > > primenenije [A natural experiment and its school application]. > > Petrograd: Tipographija Rikkera. > > > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:01 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > >> Pierre Janet, L??volution de la m?moire et de la notion du temps, > CHahine, > >> Paris, 1928. > >> > http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/janet_pierre/evolution_memoire_temps/ > >> evolution_memoire.html > >> Une ?dition ?lectronique r?alis?e ? partir du livre de Pierre Janet > >> (1859-1947) (philosophe devenu m?decin et psychologue), L'?volution de > la > >> m?moire et de la notion du temps. (1928). Compte rendu int?gral des > >> conf?rences faites en 1928 au Coll?ge de France d'apr?s les notes > >> st?nographiques. Coll?ge de France, Chaire de psychologie exp?rimentale > et > >> compar?e. Tome III: L'organisation du temps. Paris, ?ditions Chahine, > 1928, > >> pp. 419 ? 624. That's more than 100 pages, so that is probably too much. > >> > >> The only work of Janet's that has been published in English is a series > of > >> lectures he gave in the US. > >> According to the Soviet editors of LSVCW, although Vygotsky rarely > quoted > >> Janet, there is reason to believe he was influenced by him. These > editors > >> point to AN Leontyev's 1931 article on memory as drawing on Janet's > work as > >> mentioned above. > >> Here's Wikipedia on Janet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Janet > >> Andy > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> mike cole wrote: > >> > >>> My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and his > >>> colleagues between > >>> roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. Anyone able to identify > >>> things they would like > >>> to read? I will try to go back and check out my own wish list. > >>> > >>> If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, it > might > >>> facilitate. > >>> We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. > >>> > >>> mike > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Andy Blunden >>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Perhaps one of the papers by Luria which Mike has in his collection: > >>> http://luria.ucsd.edu/Articles-by-Luria/Luria-by-Language.html > >>> > >>> Andy > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> ------------ > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Goncu, Artin wrote: > >>> > >>> Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can > >>> either write > >>> to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will > >>> forward > >>> them to him. Best, ag > >>> > >>> > >>> ---------------------------- Original Message > >>> ---------------------------- > >>> Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th > anniversary > >>> From: "Larry Nucci" >>> > > >>> Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm > >>> To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" >>> > > >>> "Cynthia Garcia Coll" >>> > > >>> "Goncu, Artin" > > >>> "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no > >>> " >>> > > >>> "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu > >>> " >>> > > >>> "Prof. C.J. Howe" >>> > > >>> "Lewis, Charlie" >>> > > >>> "Melanie A. Killen" >>> > > >>> "willis.overton@temple.edu > >>> " >>> > > >>> "Barbara Rogoff" >>> > > >>> "Ruck, Martin" >>> > > >>> "Geoffrey B. SAXE" >>> > > >>> "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr > >>> " > >>> >>> > > >>> "Elsbeth Stern" >>> > > >>> "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp > >>> " >>> > > >>> "tomas@eva.mpg.de " > >>> > > >>> "Elliot TURIEL" >>> > > >>> "Stella Vosniadou" >>> > > >>> "Cecilia Wainryb" >>> > > >>> "Youniss, James" >>> > > >>> "silviar@servidor.unam.mx > >>> " >>> > > >>> "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp > >>> " > >>> >> > >>> "Phil Zelazo" > > >>> "Susan Rivera" >>> > > >>> "Na',ilah Nasir" >>> > > >>> "Terezinha Nunes" >>> > > >>> "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov > >>> " >>> > > >>> "Deborah Powers" >>> > > >>> "judith.smetana@rochester.edu > >>> " > >>> >>> > > >>> "Alexandra M. Freund" >>> > > >>> "David Witherington" >>> > > >>> Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" >>> > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> -------------- > >>> > >>> Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - > >>> > >>> This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. > >>> As many of you > >>> know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned scientific > >>> publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human > >>> Development. I > >>> recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that > >>> is connected > >>> with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special > >>> occasion. > >>> Please take a moment to read her request, and send any > >>> suggestions for such > >>> highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather > >>> together > >>> your suggestions and send them to her. > >>> > >>> > >>> With best regards, > >>> > >>> Larry > >>> > >>> Dear Professor Nucci, > >>> > >>> Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor > >>> of Human > >>> Development, for your input and advice. As you may already > >>> know, Karger > >>> Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To > >>> mark this > >>> occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of > >>> the ordinary. > >>> When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, > >>> English wasn't the > >>> scientific ???lingua franca?? . This is a relatively recent > >>> phenomenon, many > >>> great scientists published their work in other languages. Good > >>> translations > >>> are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. Being able > to > >>> understand the meaning of what the original author wrote and > this > >>> often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is > >>> surely of vital > >>> importance. > >>> > >>> During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a > >>> "collection" > >>> of the most significant scientific work that was not > >>> originally published > >>> in English and make a corresponding collection of translations > >>> available to > >>> the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal > >>> to you to > >>> help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most > >>> important articles > >>> in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us > >>> know a > >>> handful of the most significant papers in your field of > >>> expertise not > >>> available in English *(naming author, title and wherever > >>> possible, the > >>> source), we will check whether a translation of suitable > >>> quality already > >>> exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an > >>> english > >>> translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering > >>> work (Versuche > >>> ??ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable > >>> starting point in > >>> time. > >>> > >>> We do hope that you can participate with us together in what > >>> should > >>> hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the > >>> profile of > >>> milestones in science and making these more accessible, should > >>> benefit all. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Jan 22 16:40:23 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 00:40:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: <1220797489.41460171.1421963583655.JavaMail.zimbra@sfu.ca> References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> <54C0E6A6.2030008@mira.net> <3FEDDB54-DE45-466B-8D60-E7516D97C595@uniandes.edu.co> <1220797489.41460171.1421963583655.JavaMail.zimbra@sfu.ca> Message-ID: Possibly M. Latash has some of Bernstein covered (progress in Motor Control etc). Huw On 22 January 2015 at 21:53, Natalia Gajdamaschko wrote: > Hi Dear All, > I'd signed up for ALL of your previous suggestions. And I'd add the names > of 1) Pyotr Anokhin and 2) Nikolai Bernstein. In case of Bernstein, > according to Wiki, there was a book published but long time ago: Bernstain > Nikolai (1967). The Coordination and Regulation of Movements. Oxford: > Pergamon Press. But it was a long time ago... Not sure about Anokhin. > Cheers, > Natalia. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martin John Packer" > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 12:48:43 PM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their > 125th anniversary] > > Something by Gustav Shpet? This, or an excerpt? > > Shpet, G. G. (2007). Vnutrenniaia forma slova [The inner form of the > word]. In T. Shchedrina (Ed.), Gustav Shpet, Iskusstvo kak vid znaniia I > (pp. 323-501). Moskva: Rosspen. > > Martin > > > On Jan 22, 2015, at 12:25 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Ah! I misunderstood. So ANY non-English work. > > > > Then Shif would be fine if there is an important unpublished piece. > > Attached is an article with a reference to our very on Peter S and a > > reference to the work of > > Lazursky. If there was a chapter from the following book, or an article, > > it might be really > > interesting. > > > > mike > > > > Lazursky, A. F. (1918). Estestvennii eksperiment i ego shkol?noje > > primenenije [A natural experiment and its school application]. > > Petrograd: Tipographija Rikkera. > > > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:01 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > >> Pierre Janet, L??volution de la m?moire et de la notion du temps, > CHahine, > >> Paris, 1928. > >> > http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/janet_pierre/evolution_memoire_temps/ > >> evolution_memoire.html > >> Une ?dition ?lectronique r?alis?e ? partir du livre de Pierre Janet > >> (1859-1947) (philosophe devenu m?decin et psychologue), L'?volution de > la > >> m?moire et de la notion du temps. (1928). Compte rendu int?gral des > >> conf?rences faites en 1928 au Coll?ge de France d'apr?s les notes > >> st?nographiques. Coll?ge de France, Chaire de psychologie exp?rimentale > et > >> compar?e. Tome III: L'organisation du temps. Paris, ?ditions Chahine, > 1928, > >> pp. 419 ? 624. That's more than 100 pages, so that is probably too much. > >> > >> The only work of Janet's that has been published in English is a series > of > >> lectures he gave in the US. > >> According to the Soviet editors of LSVCW, although Vygotsky rarely > quoted > >> Janet, there is reason to believe he was influenced by him. These > editors > >> point to AN Leontyev's 1931 article on memory as drawing on Janet's > work as > >> mentioned above. > >> Here's Wikipedia on Janet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Janet > >> Andy > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> mike cole wrote: > >> > >>> My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and his > >>> colleagues between > >>> roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. Anyone able to identify > >>> things they would like > >>> to read? I will try to go back and check out my own wish list. > >>> > >>> If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, it > might > >>> facilitate. > >>> We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. > >>> > >>> mike > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Andy Blunden >>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Perhaps one of the papers by Luria which Mike has in his collection: > >>> http://luria.ucsd.edu/Articles-by-Luria/Luria-by-Language.html > >>> > >>> Andy > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> ------------ > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Goncu, Artin wrote: > >>> > >>> Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can > >>> either write > >>> to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will > >>> forward > >>> them to him. Best, ag > >>> > >>> > >>> ---------------------------- Original Message > >>> ---------------------------- > >>> Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th > anniversary > >>> From: "Larry Nucci" >>> > > >>> Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm > >>> To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" >>> > > >>> "Cynthia Garcia Coll" >>> > > >>> "Goncu, Artin" > > >>> "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no > >>> " >>> > > >>> "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu > >>> " >>> > > >>> "Prof. C.J. Howe" >>> > > >>> "Lewis, Charlie" >>> > > >>> "Melanie A. Killen" >>> > > >>> "willis.overton@temple.edu > >>> " >>> > > >>> "Barbara Rogoff" >>> > > >>> "Ruck, Martin" >>> > > >>> "Geoffrey B. SAXE" >>> > > >>> "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr > >>> " > >>> >>> > > >>> "Elsbeth Stern" >>> > > >>> "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp > >>> " >>> > > >>> "tomas@eva.mpg.de " > >>> > > >>> "Elliot TURIEL" >>> > > >>> "Stella Vosniadou" >>> > > >>> "Cecilia Wainryb" >>> > > >>> "Youniss, James" >>> > > >>> "silviar@servidor.unam.mx > >>> " >>> > > >>> "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp > >>> " > >>> >> > >>> "Phil Zelazo" > > >>> "Susan Rivera" >>> > > >>> "Na',ilah Nasir" >>> > > >>> "Terezinha Nunes" >>> > > >>> "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov > >>> " >>> > > >>> "Deborah Powers" >>> > > >>> "judith.smetana@rochester.edu > >>> " > >>> >>> > > >>> "Alexandra M. Freund" >>> > > >>> "David Witherington" >>> > > >>> Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" >>> > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> -------------- > >>> > >>> Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - > >>> > >>> This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. > >>> As many of you > >>> know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned scientific > >>> publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human > >>> Development. I > >>> recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that > >>> is connected > >>> with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special > >>> occasion. > >>> Please take a moment to read her request, and send any > >>> suggestions for such > >>> highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather > >>> together > >>> your suggestions and send them to her. > >>> > >>> > >>> With best regards, > >>> > >>> Larry > >>> > >>> Dear Professor Nucci, > >>> > >>> Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor > >>> of Human > >>> Development, for your input and advice. As you may already > >>> know, Karger > >>> Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To > >>> mark this > >>> occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of > >>> the ordinary. > >>> When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, > >>> English wasn't the > >>> scientific ???lingua franca?? . This is a relatively recent > >>> phenomenon, many > >>> great scientists published their work in other languages. Good > >>> translations > >>> are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. Being able > to > >>> understand the meaning of what the original author wrote and > this > >>> often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is > >>> surely of vital > >>> importance. > >>> > >>> During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a > >>> "collection" > >>> of the most significant scientific work that was not > >>> originally published > >>> in English and make a corresponding collection of translations > >>> available to > >>> the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal > >>> to you to > >>> help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most > >>> important articles > >>> in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us > >>> know a > >>> handful of the most significant papers in your field of > >>> expertise not > >>> available in English *(naming author, title and wherever > >>> possible, the > >>> source), we will check whether a translation of suitable > >>> quality already > >>> exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an > >>> english > >>> translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering > >>> work (Versuche > >>> ??ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable > >>> starting point in > >>> time. > >>> > >>> We do hope that you can participate with us together in what > >>> should > >>> hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the > >>> profile of > >>> milestones in science and making these more accessible, should > >>> benefit all. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Jan 22 20:20:26 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 21:20:26 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Notes on Blindness In-Reply-To: <1421964016656.90429@unm.edu> References: <1421950142186.25490@unm.edu> <1421964016656.90429@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, Yes, you said it very well, much better than I did in my prior post which was a bit intellectually garbled (and I missed the article that went along with it, so thanks for pointing that out!). But I do think that there is an interesting point to be made about the importance of the reduction of the manifold of experience that is essential to memory. I once assembled a paper that argued that forgetting should be seen as a tool of ethnography since when one reduces one's experience to what is remembered, one has gotten to something that was somehow important. Reviewers thought it was just an excuse for doing lazy ethnographic research. Perhaps it was... What ever happened to that paper? I can't remember... -greg On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Greg! > > Yes the piece is really great and well produced! > > If you read the article that accompanies the video on the Times page, the > writers indicate that over time as he adjusted to blindness, he came to > revel in the other senses to the point that when he was helping with the > movie, he'd forgotten that he'd gone through that painful time, and > apparently wasn't happy to revisit the memories. I think that is the point > of the last scene with the rain (inside), to show that he began to "see" > differently, with sound. Maybe? At least, that is how I interpreted it. > > I also thought, as you, it was remarkable that he remembered photographs, > maybe these map in memory differently? Like you say because of reduction of > modality? > > What also seems significant is that if we don't use those organs of > perceptions we lose memories of those perceptions. Which may mean that > memory is something that must be reconstructed with the organ somehow, even > if we aren't using the organ to perceive externally while retrieval of the > memory? I'm not sure I explained that very well? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Jan 22 23:47:43 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 23:47:43 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Notes on Blindness In-Reply-To: References: <1421950142186.25490@unm.edu> <1421964016656.90429@unm.edu> Message-ID: Greg, Memory as requiring the process of reduction of the manifold of experience does seem to an interesting question which may offer a possibility for further expansion. I mean this metaphorically as a reciprocal "dance" of reduction and expansion. The "reciprocal" awareness that possibly not only memories but also our theories and our conceptions may be relying too much on the processes of memory [after the fact] and therefore loosing sight of the multi-modality of experience as it unfolds. Greg as you point "out" - to be seen is to be made (cf. Bakhtin's notion of "consummation"). Your insight where you say that filling the whole of the audible environment is an experience of beauty, which has something to do with the complexity of the image in motion, alive, moving, unfixed, with shades and textures constantly changing. Instead of being isolated, cut off, preoccupied, internally, you are presented with a world. You are related to a world. You are addressed by a world. Robert Nichols in exploring the meaning of freedom and recognition says, "To stand in a 'free' relation to the world, to oneself and one's ethical commitments, is to know that one's standpoint does not exhaust the total range of meaningful, viable, and worthwhile possibilities." For Robert beauty as 'being-in-the-world' depends on the "extent" to which we actually "embody" the world through receptivity, fragility, indeterminacy, and interconnectivity. [similar sentiments to the notion of "surrender" or "acceptance" as an ethical commitment] Robert Nichols perceives an ethical commitment that emerges within an awareness of how one cares for the world and how one has an "attachment" to existence. Greg, is it possible that memory, and theory "about" how one re-members and re-cognizes and re-presents and re-duces and then articulates the world as the "truth" contributes to being isolated, cut off, preoccupied. The world foreclosed. Requiring that "we" once again turn [or re-turn] to being within the world as situated presence. The musical resonance of "attunement" within the world prior to re-collecting and re-ducing the world through memory which highlights the salient features. On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Annalisa, > Yes, you said it very well, much better than I did in my prior post which > was a bit intellectually garbled (and I missed the article that went along > with it, so thanks for pointing that out!). > > But I do think that there is an interesting point to be made about the > importance of the reduction of the manifold of experience that is essential > to memory. > > I once assembled a paper that argued that forgetting should be seen as a > tool of ethnography since when one reduces one's experience to what is > remembered, one has gotten to something that was somehow important. > Reviewers thought it was just an excuse for doing lazy ethnographic > research. Perhaps it was... > > What ever happened to that paper? > > I can't remember... > -greg > > > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > Greg! > > > > Yes the piece is really great and well produced! > > > > If you read the article that accompanies the video on the Times page, the > > writers indicate that over time as he adjusted to blindness, he came to > > revel in the other senses to the point that when he was helping with the > > movie, he'd forgotten that he'd gone through that painful time, and > > apparently wasn't happy to revisit the memories. I think that is the > point > > of the last scene with the rain (inside), to show that he began to "see" > > differently, with sound. Maybe? At least, that is how I interpreted it. > > > > I also thought, as you, it was remarkable that he remembered photographs, > > maybe these map in memory differently? Like you say because of reduction > of > > modality? > > > > What also seems significant is that if we don't use those organs of > > perceptions we lose memories of those perceptions. Which may mean that > > memory is something that must be reconstructed with the organ somehow, > even > > if we aren't using the organ to perceive externally while retrieval of > the > > memory? I'm not sure I explained that very well? > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From smago@uga.edu Fri Jan 23 02:41:53 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 10:41:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> <54C0E6A6.2030008@mira.net> <3FEDDB54-DE45-466B-8D60-E7516D97C595@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Zinchenko on Shpet at http://universitypublishingonline.org/cambridge/companions/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9781139001496&cid=CBO9781139001496A017 -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 7:36 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] I was going to suggest that too :), but I thought I'd check the two JREEP issues (2000) on Shpet first. On 22 January 2015 at 20:48, Martin John Packer wrote: > Something by Gustav Shpet? This, or an excerpt? > > Shpet, G. G. (2007). Vnutrenniaia forma slova [The inner form of the > word]. In T. Shchedrina (Ed.), Gustav Shpet, Iskusstvo kak vid znaniia > I (pp. 323-501). Moskva: Rosspen. > > Martin > > > On Jan 22, 2015, at 12:25 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Ah! I misunderstood. So ANY non-English work. > > > > Then Shif would be fine if there is an important unpublished piece. > > Attached is an article with a reference to our very on Peter S and a > > reference to the work of Lazursky. If there was a chapter from the > > following book, or an article, it might be really interesting. > > > > mike > > > > Lazursky, A. F. (1918). Estestvennii eksperiment i ego shkol?noje > > primenenije [A natural experiment and its school application]. > > Petrograd: Tipographija Rikkera. > > > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:01 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > >> Pierre Janet, L??volution de la m?moire et de la notion du temps, > CHahine, > >> Paris, 1928. > >> > http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/janet_pierre/evolution_memoire_te > mps/ > >> evolution_memoire.html > >> Une ?dition ?lectronique r?alis?e ? partir du livre de Pierre Janet > >> (1859-1947) (philosophe devenu m?decin et psychologue), L'?volution > >> de > la > >> m?moire et de la notion du temps. (1928). Compte rendu int?gral des > >> conf?rences faites en 1928 au Coll?ge de France d'apr?s les notes > >> st?nographiques. Coll?ge de France, Chaire de psychologie > >> exp?rimentale > et > >> compar?e. Tome III: L'organisation du temps. Paris, ?ditions > >> Chahine, > 1928, > >> pp. 419 ? 624. That's more than 100 pages, so that is probably too much. > >> > >> The only work of Janet's that has been published in English is a > >> series > of > >> lectures he gave in the US. > >> According to the Soviet editors of LSVCW, although Vygotsky rarely > quoted > >> Janet, there is reason to believe he was influenced by him. These > editors > >> point to AN Leontyev's 1931 article on memory as drawing on Janet's > work as > >> mentioned above. > >> Here's Wikipedia on Janet: > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Janet > >> Andy > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> ----- > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> mike cole wrote: > >> > >>> My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and his > >>> colleagues between roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. > >>> Anyone able to identify things they would like to read? I will try > >>> to go back and check out my own wish list. > >>> > >>> If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, it > might > >>> facilitate. > >>> We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. > >>> > >>> mike > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Andy Blunden >>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Perhaps one of the papers by Luria which Mike has in his collection: > >>> http://luria.ucsd.edu/Articles-by-Luria/Luria-by-Language.html > >>> > >>> Andy > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> ------------ > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Goncu, Artin wrote: > >>> > >>> Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can > >>> either write > >>> to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will > >>> forward > >>> them to him. Best, ag > >>> > >>> > >>> ---------------------------- Original Message > >>> ---------------------------- > >>> Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th > anniversary > >>> From: "Larry Nucci" >>> > > >>> Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm > >>> To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" >>> > > >>> "Cynthia Garcia Coll" >>> > > >>> "Goncu, Artin" > > >>> "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no > >>> " >>> > > >>> "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu > >>> " >>> > > >>> "Prof. C.J. Howe" >>> > > >>> "Lewis, Charlie" >>> > > >>> "Melanie A. Killen" >>> > > >>> "willis.overton@temple.edu > >>> " >>> > > >>> "Barbara Rogoff" >>> > > >>> "Ruck, Martin" >>> > > >>> "Geoffrey B. SAXE" >>> > > >>> "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr > >>> " > >>> >>> > > >>> "Elsbeth Stern" >>> > > >>> "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp > >>> " >>> > > >>> "tomas@eva.mpg.de " > >>> > > >>> "Elliot TURIEL" >>> > > >>> "Stella Vosniadou" >>> > > >>> "Cecilia Wainryb" >>> > > >>> "Youniss, James" >>> > > >>> "silviar@servidor.unam.mx > >>> " >>> > > >>> "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp > >>> " > >>> >>> >> > >>> "Phil Zelazo" > > >>> "Susan Rivera" >>> > > >>> "Na',ilah Nasir" >>> > > >>> "Terezinha Nunes" >>> > > >>> "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov > >>> " >>> > > >>> "Deborah Powers" >>> > > >>> "judith.smetana@rochester.edu > >>> " > >>> >>> > > >>> "Alexandra M. Freund" >>> > > >>> "David Witherington" >>> > > >>> Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" >>> > > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> -------------- > >>> > >>> Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - > >>> > >>> This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. > >>> As many of you > >>> know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned scientific > >>> publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human > >>> Development. I > >>> recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that > >>> is connected > >>> with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special > >>> occasion. > >>> Please take a moment to read her request, and send any > >>> suggestions for such > >>> highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather > >>> together > >>> your suggestions and send them to her. > >>> > >>> > >>> With best regards, > >>> > >>> Larry > >>> > >>> Dear Professor Nucci, > >>> > >>> Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor > >>> of Human > >>> Development, for your input and advice. As you may already > >>> know, Karger > >>> Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To > >>> mark this > >>> occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of > >>> the ordinary. > >>> When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, > >>> English wasn't the > >>> scientific ???lingua franca?? . This is a relatively recent > >>> phenomenon, many > >>> great scientists published their work in other languages. Good > >>> translations > >>> are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. Being > >>> able > to > >>> understand the meaning of what the original author wrote > >>> and > this > >>> often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is > >>> surely of vital > >>> importance. > >>> > >>> During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a > >>> "collection" > >>> of the most significant scientific work that was not > >>> originally published > >>> in English and make a corresponding collection of translations > >>> available to > >>> the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal > >>> to you to > >>> help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most > >>> important articles > >>> in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us > >>> know a > >>> handful of the most significant papers in your field of > >>> expertise not > >>> available in English *(naming author, title and wherever > >>> possible, the > >>> source), we will check whether a translation of suitable > >>> quality already > >>> exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an > >>> english > >>> translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering > >>> work (Versuche > >>> ??ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable > >>> starting point in > >>> time. > >>> > >>> We do hope that you can participate with us together in what > >>> should > >>> hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the > >>> profile of > >>> milestones in science and making these more accessible, should > >>> benefit all. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as > >>> an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Fri Jan 23 09:05:30 2015 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 12:05:30 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> <54C0E6A6.2030008@mira.net> <3FEDDB54-DE45-466B-8D60-E7516D97C595@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Has this work by Georgy Schedrovitsky been translated? Schedrovitsky, G. (1979) An Analysis of the Techniques of Solving Complicated Problems and Tasks with Incomplete Information and Collective Action. Just curious, Robert ? ? ?L.? On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 5:41 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Zinchenko on Shpet at > http://universitypublishingonline.org/cambridge/companions/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9781139001496&cid=CBO9781139001496A017 > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 7:36 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th > anniversary] > > I was going to suggest that too :), but I thought I'd check the two JREEP > issues (2000) on Shpet first. > > On 22 January 2015 at 20:48, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > > Something by Gustav Shpet? This, or an excerpt? > > > > Shpet, G. G. (2007). Vnutrenniaia forma slova [The inner form of the > > word]. In T. Shchedrina (Ed.), Gustav Shpet, Iskusstvo kak vid znaniia > > I (pp. 323-501). Moskva: Rosspen. > > > > Martin > > > > > > On Jan 22, 2015, at 12:25 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Ah! I misunderstood. So ANY non-English work. > > > > > > Then Shif would be fine if there is an important unpublished piece. > > > Attached is an article with a reference to our very on Peter S and a > > > reference to the work of Lazursky. If there was a chapter from the > > > following book, or an article, it might be really interesting. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > Lazursky, A. F. (1918). Estestvennii eksperiment i ego shkol?noje > > > primenenije [A natural experiment and its school application]. > > > Petrograd: Tipographija Rikkera. > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:01 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > > > >> Pierre Janet, L??volution de la m?moire et de la notion du temps, > > CHahine, > > >> Paris, 1928. > > >> > > http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/janet_pierre/evolution_memoire_te > > mps/ > > >> evolution_memoire.html > > >> Une ?dition ?lectronique r?alis?e ? partir du livre de Pierre Janet > > >> (1859-1947) (philosophe devenu m?decin et psychologue), L'?volution > > >> de > > la > > >> m?moire et de la notion du temps. (1928). Compte rendu int?gral des > > >> conf?rences faites en 1928 au Coll?ge de France d'apr?s les notes > > >> st?nographiques. Coll?ge de France, Chaire de psychologie > > >> exp?rimentale > > et > > >> compar?e. Tome III: L'organisation du temps. Paris, ?ditions > > >> Chahine, > > 1928, > > >> pp. 419 ? 624. That's more than 100 pages, so that is probably too > much. > > >> > > >> The only work of Janet's that has been published in English is a > > >> series > > of > > >> lectures he gave in the US. > > >> According to the Soviet editors of LSVCW, although Vygotsky rarely > > quoted > > >> Janet, there is reason to believe he was influenced by him. These > > editors > > >> point to AN Leontyev's 1931 article on memory as drawing on Janet's > > work as > > >> mentioned above. > > >> Here's Wikipedia on Janet: > > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Janet > > >> Andy > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> ----- > > >> *Andy Blunden* > > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >> > > >> > > >> mike cole wrote: > > >> > > >>> My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and his > > >>> colleagues between roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. > > >>> Anyone able to identify things they would like to read? I will try > > >>> to go back and check out my own wish list. > > >>> > > >>> If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, it > > might > > >>> facilitate. > > >>> We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. > > >>> > > >>> mike > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Andy Blunden > > >>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Perhaps one of the papers by Luria which Mike has in his > collection: > > >>> http://luria.ucsd.edu/Articles-by-Luria/Luria-by-Language.html > > >>> > > >>> Andy > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> ------------ > > >>> *Andy Blunden* > > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Goncu, Artin wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can > > >>> either write > > >>> to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will > > >>> forward > > >>> them to him. Best, ag > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ---------------------------- Original Message > > >>> ---------------------------- > > >>> Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th > > anniversary > > >>> From: "Larry Nucci" > >>> > > > >>> Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm > > >>> To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" > >>> > > > >>> "Cynthia Garcia Coll" > >>> > > > >>> "Goncu, Artin" >> > > >>> "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no > > >>> " > >>> > > > >>> "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu > > >>> " > >>> > > > >>> "Prof. C.J. Howe" > >>> > > > >>> "Lewis, Charlie" > >>> > > > >>> "Melanie A. Killen" > >>> > > > >>> "willis.overton@temple.edu > > >>> " < > willis.overton@temple.edu > > >>> > > > >>> "Barbara Rogoff" > >>> > > > >>> "Ruck, Martin" > >>> > > > >>> "Geoffrey B. SAXE" > >>> > > > >>> "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr > > >>> " > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> "Elsbeth Stern" > >>> > > > >>> "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp > > >>> " < > keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp > > >>> > > > >>> "tomas@eva.mpg.de " > > >>> > > > >>> "Elliot TURIEL" > >>> > > > >>> "Stella Vosniadou" > >>> > > > >>> "Cecilia Wainryb" > >>> > > > >>> "Youniss, James" > >>> > > > >>> "silviar@servidor.unam.mx > > >>> " > >>> > > > >>> "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp > > >>> " > > >>> > >>> > >> > > >>> "Phil Zelazo" >> > > >>> "Susan Rivera" > >>> > > > >>> "Na',ilah Nasir" > >>> > > > >>> "Terezinha Nunes" < > terezinha.nunes@education.ox.ac.uk > > >>> > > > >>> "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov > > >>> " > >>> > > > >>> "Deborah Powers" > >>> > > > >>> "judith.smetana@rochester.edu > > >>> " > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> "Alexandra M. Freund" > >>> > > > >>> "David Witherington" > >>> > > > >>> Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> -------------- > > >>> > > >>> Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - > > >>> > > >>> This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. > > >>> As many of you > > >>> know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned > scientific > > >>> publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human > > >>> Development. I > > >>> recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that > > >>> is connected > > >>> with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special > > >>> occasion. > > >>> Please take a moment to read her request, and send any > > >>> suggestions for such > > >>> highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather > > >>> together > > >>> your suggestions and send them to her. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> With best regards, > > >>> > > >>> Larry > > >>> > > >>> Dear Professor Nucci, > > >>> > > >>> Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor > > >>> of Human > > >>> Development, for your input and advice. As you may already > > >>> know, Karger > > >>> Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To > > >>> mark this > > >>> occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of > > >>> the ordinary. > > >>> When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, > > >>> English wasn't the > > >>> scientific ???lingua franca?? . This is a relatively recent > > >>> phenomenon, many > > >>> great scientists published their work in other languages. Good > > >>> translations > > >>> are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. Being > > >>> able > > to > > >>> understand the meaning of what the original author wrote > > >>> and > > this > > >>> often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is > > >>> surely of vital > > >>> importance. > > >>> > > >>> During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a > > >>> "collection" > > >>> of the most significant scientific work that was not > > >>> originally published > > >>> in English and make a corresponding collection of translations > > >>> available to > > >>> the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal > > >>> to you to > > >>> help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most > > >>> important articles > > >>> in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us > > >>> know a > > >>> handful of the most significant papers in your field of > > >>> expertise not > > >>> available in English *(naming author, title and wherever > > >>> possible, the > > >>> source), we will check whether a translation of suitable > > >>> quality already > > >>> exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an > > >>> english > > >>> translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering > > >>> work (Versuche > > >>> ??ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable > > >>> starting point in > > >>> time. > > >>> > > >>> We do hope that you can participate with us together in what > > >>> should > > >>> hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the > > >>> profile of > > >>> milestones in science and making these more accessible, should > > >>> benefit all. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as > > >>> an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Jan 23 09:16:35 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 09:16:35 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> <54C0E6A6.2030008@mira.net> <3FEDDB54-DE45-466B-8D60-E7516D97C595@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Peter, Is there any way to access this chapter online . The abstract indicates Shept may have been a deep influence which was not acknowledged because of the political times. The other chapter by Bahktin titled "Vygotsky's Demons" aslo seems to explore the same historical influences and I wonder if that chapter is online? There may be some answers to Greg's question on memory as reducing phenomena to highlight or illuminate salient features On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:41 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Zinchenko on Shpet at > http://universitypublishingonline.org/cambridge/companions/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9781139001496&cid=CBO9781139001496A017 > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 7:36 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th > anniversary] > > I was going to suggest that too :), but I thought I'd check the two JREEP > issues (2000) on Shpet first. > > On 22 January 2015 at 20:48, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > > Something by Gustav Shpet? This, or an excerpt? > > > > Shpet, G. G. (2007). Vnutrenniaia forma slova [The inner form of the > > word]. In T. Shchedrina (Ed.), Gustav Shpet, Iskusstvo kak vid znaniia > > I (pp. 323-501). Moskva: Rosspen. > > > > Martin > > > > > > On Jan 22, 2015, at 12:25 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Ah! I misunderstood. So ANY non-English work. > > > > > > Then Shif would be fine if there is an important unpublished piece. > > > Attached is an article with a reference to our very on Peter S and a > > > reference to the work of Lazursky. If there was a chapter from the > > > following book, or an article, it might be really interesting. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > Lazursky, A. F. (1918). Estestvennii eksperiment i ego shkol?noje > > > primenenije [A natural experiment and its school application]. > > > Petrograd: Tipographija Rikkera. > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:01 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > > > >> Pierre Janet, L??volution de la m?moire et de la notion du temps, > > CHahine, > > >> Paris, 1928. > > >> > > http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/janet_pierre/evolution_memoire_te > > mps/ > > >> evolution_memoire.html > > >> Une ?dition ?lectronique r?alis?e ? partir du livre de Pierre Janet > > >> (1859-1947) (philosophe devenu m?decin et psychologue), L'?volution > > >> de > > la > > >> m?moire et de la notion du temps. (1928). Compte rendu int?gral des > > >> conf?rences faites en 1928 au Coll?ge de France d'apr?s les notes > > >> st?nographiques. Coll?ge de France, Chaire de psychologie > > >> exp?rimentale > > et > > >> compar?e. Tome III: L'organisation du temps. Paris, ?ditions > > >> Chahine, > > 1928, > > >> pp. 419 ? 624. That's more than 100 pages, so that is probably too > much. > > >> > > >> The only work of Janet's that has been published in English is a > > >> series > > of > > >> lectures he gave in the US. > > >> According to the Soviet editors of LSVCW, although Vygotsky rarely > > quoted > > >> Janet, there is reason to believe he was influenced by him. These > > editors > > >> point to AN Leontyev's 1931 article on memory as drawing on Janet's > > work as > > >> mentioned above. > > >> Here's Wikipedia on Janet: > > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Janet > > >> Andy > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> ----- > > >> *Andy Blunden* > > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >> > > >> > > >> mike cole wrote: > > >> > > >>> My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and his > > >>> colleagues between roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. > > >>> Anyone able to identify things they would like to read? I will try > > >>> to go back and check out my own wish list. > > >>> > > >>> If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, it > > might > > >>> facilitate. > > >>> We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. > > >>> > > >>> mike > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Andy Blunden > > >>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Perhaps one of the papers by Luria which Mike has in his > collection: > > >>> http://luria.ucsd.edu/Articles-by-Luria/Luria-by-Language.html > > >>> > > >>> Andy > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> ------------ > > >>> *Andy Blunden* > > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Goncu, Artin wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can > > >>> either write > > >>> to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will > > >>> forward > > >>> them to him. Best, ag > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ---------------------------- Original Message > > >>> ---------------------------- > > >>> Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th > > anniversary > > >>> From: "Larry Nucci" > >>> > > > >>> Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm > > >>> To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" > >>> > > > >>> "Cynthia Garcia Coll" > >>> > > > >>> "Goncu, Artin" >> > > >>> "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no > > >>> " > >>> > > > >>> "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu > > >>> " > >>> > > > >>> "Prof. C.J. Howe" > >>> > > > >>> "Lewis, Charlie" > >>> > > > >>> "Melanie A. Killen" > >>> > > > >>> "willis.overton@temple.edu > > >>> " < > willis.overton@temple.edu > > >>> > > > >>> "Barbara Rogoff" > >>> > > > >>> "Ruck, Martin" > >>> > > > >>> "Geoffrey B. SAXE" > >>> > > > >>> "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr > > >>> " > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> "Elsbeth Stern" > >>> > > > >>> "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp > > >>> " < > keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp > > >>> > > > >>> "tomas@eva.mpg.de " > > >>> > > > >>> "Elliot TURIEL" > >>> > > > >>> "Stella Vosniadou" > >>> > > > >>> "Cecilia Wainryb" > >>> > > > >>> "Youniss, James" > >>> > > > >>> "silviar@servidor.unam.mx > > >>> " > >>> > > > >>> "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp > > >>> " > > >>> > >>> > >> > > >>> "Phil Zelazo" >> > > >>> "Susan Rivera" > >>> > > > >>> "Na',ilah Nasir" > >>> > > > >>> "Terezinha Nunes" < > terezinha.nunes@education.ox.ac.uk > > >>> > > > >>> "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov > > >>> " > >>> > > > >>> "Deborah Powers" > >>> > > > >>> "judith.smetana@rochester.edu > > >>> " > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> "Alexandra M. Freund" > >>> > > > >>> "David Witherington" > >>> > > > >>> Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> -------------- > > >>> > > >>> Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - > > >>> > > >>> This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. > > >>> As many of you > > >>> know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned > scientific > > >>> publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human > > >>> Development. I > > >>> recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that > > >>> is connected > > >>> with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special > > >>> occasion. > > >>> Please take a moment to read her request, and send any > > >>> suggestions for such > > >>> highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather > > >>> together > > >>> your suggestions and send them to her. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> With best regards, > > >>> > > >>> Larry > > >>> > > >>> Dear Professor Nucci, > > >>> > > >>> Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor > > >>> of Human > > >>> Development, for your input and advice. As you may already > > >>> know, Karger > > >>> Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To > > >>> mark this > > >>> occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of > > >>> the ordinary. > > >>> When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, > > >>> English wasn't the > > >>> scientific ???lingua franca?? . This is a relatively recent > > >>> phenomenon, many > > >>> great scientists published their work in other languages. Good > > >>> translations > > >>> are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. Being > > >>> able > > to > > >>> understand the meaning of what the original author wrote > > >>> and > > this > > >>> often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is > > >>> surely of vital > > >>> importance. > > >>> > > >>> During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a > > >>> "collection" > > >>> of the most significant scientific work that was not > > >>> originally published > > >>> in English and make a corresponding collection of translations > > >>> available to > > >>> the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal > > >>> to you to > > >>> help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most > > >>> important articles > > >>> in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us > > >>> know a > > >>> handful of the most significant papers in your field of > > >>> expertise not > > >>> available in English *(naming author, title and wherever > > >>> possible, the > > >>> source), we will check whether a translation of suitable > > >>> quality already > > >>> exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an > > >>> english > > >>> translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering > > >>> work (Versuche > > >>> ??ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable > > >>> starting point in > > >>> time. > > >>> > > >>> We do hope that you can participate with us together in what > > >>> should > > >>> hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the > > >>> profile of > > >>> milestones in science and making these more accessible, should > > >>> benefit all. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as > > >>> an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > From smago@uga.edu Fri Jan 23 10:02:24 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 18:02:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> <54C0E6A6.2030008@mira.net> <3FEDDB54-DE45-466B-8D60-E7516D97C595@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Try google books? -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss Sent: Friday, January 23, 2015 12:17 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] Peter, Is there any way to access this chapter online . The abstract indicates Shept may have been a deep influence which was not acknowledged because of the political times. The other chapter by Bahktin titled "Vygotsky's Demons" aslo seems to explore the same historical influences and I wonder if that chapter is online? There may be some answers to Greg's question on memory as reducing phenomena to highlight or illuminate salient features On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:41 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Zinchenko on Shpet at > http://universitypublishingonline.org/cambridge/companions/chapter.jsf > ?bid=CBO9781139001496&cid=CBO9781139001496A017 > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 7:36 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their > 125th anniversary] > > I was going to suggest that too :), but I thought I'd check the two > JREEP issues (2000) on Shpet first. > > On 22 January 2015 at 20:48, Martin John Packer > > wrote: > > > Something by Gustav Shpet? This, or an excerpt? > > > > Shpet, G. G. (2007). Vnutrenniaia forma slova [The inner form of the > > word]. In T. Shchedrina (Ed.), Gustav Shpet, Iskusstvo kak vid > > znaniia I (pp. 323-501). Moskva: Rosspen. > > > > Martin > > > > > > On Jan 22, 2015, at 12:25 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Ah! I misunderstood. So ANY non-English work. > > > > > > Then Shif would be fine if there is an important unpublished piece. > > > Attached is an article with a reference to our very on Peter S and > > > a reference to the work of Lazursky. If there was a chapter from > > > the following book, or an article, it might be really interesting. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > Lazursky, A. F. (1918). Estestvennii eksperiment i ego shkol?noje > > > primenenije [A natural experiment and its school application]. > > > Petrograd: Tipographija Rikkera. > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:01 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > > > >> Pierre Janet, L??volution de la m?moire et de la notion du temps, > > CHahine, > > >> Paris, 1928. > > >> > > http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/janet_pierre/evolution_memoire_ > > te > > mps/ > > >> evolution_memoire.html > > >> Une ?dition ?lectronique r?alis?e ? partir du livre de Pierre > > >> Janet > > >> (1859-1947) (philosophe devenu m?decin et psychologue), > > >> L'?volution de > > la > > >> m?moire et de la notion du temps. (1928). Compte rendu int?gral > > >> des conf?rences faites en 1928 au Coll?ge de France d'apr?s les > > >> notes st?nographiques. Coll?ge de France, Chaire de psychologie > > >> exp?rimentale > > et > > >> compar?e. Tome III: L'organisation du temps. Paris, ?ditions > > >> Chahine, > > 1928, > > >> pp. 419 ? 624. That's more than 100 pages, so that is probably > > >> too > much. > > >> > > >> The only work of Janet's that has been published in English is a > > >> series > > of > > >> lectures he gave in the US. > > >> According to the Soviet editors of LSVCW, although Vygotsky > > >> rarely > > quoted > > >> Janet, there is reason to believe he was influenced by him. These > > editors > > >> point to AN Leontyev's 1931 article on memory as drawing on > > >> Janet's > > work as > > >> mentioned above. > > >> Here's Wikipedia on Janet: > > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Janet > > >> Andy > > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> -- > > >> ----- > > >> *Andy Blunden* > > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >> > > >> > > >> mike cole wrote: > > >> > > >>> My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and > > >>> his colleagues between roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. > > >>> Anyone able to identify things they would like to read? I will > > >>> try to go back and check out my own wish list. > > >>> > > >>> If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, > > >>> it > > might > > >>> facilitate. > > >>> We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. > > >>> > > >>> mike > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Andy Blunden > > >>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Perhaps one of the papers by Luria which Mike has in his > collection: > > >>> > > >>> http://luria.ucsd.edu/Articles-by-Luria/Luria-by-Language.html > > >>> > > >>> Andy > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> ------------ > > >>> *Andy Blunden* > > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Goncu, Artin wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can > > >>> either write > > >>> to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will > > >>> forward > > >>> them to him. Best, ag > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ---------------------------- Original Message > > >>> ---------------------------- > > >>> Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th > > anniversary > > >>> From: "Larry Nucci" > >>> > > > >>> Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm > > >>> To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" > >>> > > > >>> "Cynthia Garcia Coll" > >>> > > > >>> "Goncu, Artin" > >>> >> > > >>> "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no > > >>> " > >>> > > > >>> "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu > > >>> " > >>> > > > >>> "Prof. C.J. Howe" > >>> > > > >>> "Lewis, Charlie" > >>> > > > >>> "Melanie A. Killen" > >>> > > > >>> "willis.overton@temple.edu > > >>> " < > willis.overton@temple.edu > > >>> > > > >>> "Barbara Rogoff" > >>> > > > >>> "Ruck, Martin" > >>> > > > >>> "Geoffrey B. SAXE" > >>> > > > >>> "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr > > >>> " > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> "Elsbeth Stern" > >>> > > > >>> "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp > > >>> " < > keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp > > >>> > > > >>> "tomas@eva.mpg.de " > > >>> > > > >>> "Elliot TURIEL" > >>> > > > >>> "Stella Vosniadou" > >>> > > > >>> "Cecilia Wainryb" > >>> > > > >>> "Youniss, James" > >>> > > > >>> "silviar@servidor.unam.mx > > >>> " > >>> > > > >>> "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp > > >>> " > > >>> > >>> > >> > > >>> "Phil Zelazo" > >>> >> > > >>> "Susan Rivera" > >>> > > > >>> "Na',ilah Nasir" > >>> > > > >>> "Terezinha Nunes" < > terezinha.nunes@education.ox.ac.uk > > >>> > > > >>> "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov > > >>> " > >>> > > > >>> "Deborah Powers" > >>> > > > >>> "judith.smetana@rochester.edu > > >>> " > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> "Alexandra M. Freund" > >>> > > > >>> "David Witherington" > >>> > > > >>> Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> -------------- > > >>> > > >>> Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - > > >>> > > >>> This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. > > >>> As many of you > > >>> know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned > scientific > > >>> publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human > > >>> Development. I > > >>> recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that > > >>> is connected > > >>> with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special > > >>> occasion. > > >>> Please take a moment to read her request, and send any > > >>> suggestions for such > > >>> highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather > > >>> together > > >>> your suggestions and send them to her. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> With best regards, > > >>> > > >>> Larry > > >>> > > >>> Dear Professor Nucci, > > >>> > > >>> Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor > > >>> of Human > > >>> Development, for your input and advice. As you may already > > >>> know, Karger > > >>> Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To > > >>> mark this > > >>> occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of > > >>> the ordinary. > > >>> When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, > > >>> English wasn't the > > >>> scientific ???lingua franca?? . This is a relatively recent > > >>> phenomenon, many > > >>> great scientists published their work in other languages. Good > > >>> translations > > >>> are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. > > >>> Being able > > to > > >>> understand the meaning of what the original author wrote > > >>> and > > this > > >>> often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is > > >>> surely of vital > > >>> importance. > > >>> > > >>> During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a > > >>> "collection" > > >>> of the most significant scientific work that was not > > >>> originally published > > >>> in English and make a corresponding collection of translations > > >>> available to > > >>> the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal > > >>> to you to > > >>> help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most > > >>> important articles > > >>> in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us > > >>> know a > > >>> handful of the most significant papers in your field of > > >>> expertise not > > >>> available in English *(naming author, title and wherever > > >>> possible, the > > >>> source), we will check whether a translation of suitable > > >>> quality already > > >>> exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an > > >>> english > > >>> translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering > > >>> work (Versuche > > >>> ??ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable > > >>> starting point in > > >>> time. > > >>> > > >>> We do hope that you can participate with us together in what > > >>> should > > >>> hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the > > >>> profile of > > >>> milestones in science and making these more accessible, should > > >>> benefit all. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science > > >>> as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as > > > an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Jan 23 10:20:52 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 10:20:52 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125thanniversary] In-Reply-To: References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> <54C0E6A6.2030008@mira.net> <3FEDDB54-DE45-466B-8D60-E7516D97C595@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <54c2911e.4696420a.293c.658b@mx.google.com> Thanks Peter also a typo vygotsky,s demons is by David bakhurst. -----Original Message----- From: "Peter Smagorinsky" Sent: ?2015-?01-?23 10:04 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125thanniversary] Try google books? -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss Sent: Friday, January 23, 2015 12:17 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] Peter, Is there any way to access this chapter online . The abstract indicates Shept may have been a deep influence which was not acknowledged because of the political times. The other chapter by Bahktin titled "Vygotsky's Demons" aslo seems to explore the same historical influences and I wonder if that chapter is online? There may be some answers to Greg's question on memory as reducing phenomena to highlight or illuminate salient features On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:41 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Zinchenko on Shpet at > http://universitypublishingonline.org/cambridge/companions/chapter.jsf > ?bid=CBO9781139001496&cid=CBO9781139001496A017 > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 7:36 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their > 125th anniversary] > > I was going to suggest that too :), but I thought I'd check the two > JREEP issues (2000) on Shpet first. > > On 22 January 2015 at 20:48, Martin John Packer > > wrote: > > > Something by Gustav Shpet? This, or an excerpt? > > > > Shpet, G. G. (2007). Vnutrenniaia forma slova [The inner form of the > > word]. In T. Shchedrina (Ed.), Gustav Shpet, Iskusstvo kak vid > > znaniia I (pp. 323-501). Moskva: Rosspen. > > > > Martin > > > > > > On Jan 22, 2015, at 12:25 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Ah! I misunderstood. So ANY non-English work. > > > > > > Then Shif would be fine if there is an important unpublished piece. > > > Attached is an article with a reference to our very on Peter S and > > > a reference to the work of Lazursky. If there was a chapter from > > > the following book, or an article, it might be really interesting. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > Lazursky, A. F. (1918). Estestvennii eksperiment i ego shkol?noje > > > primenenije [A natural experiment and its school application]. > > > Petrograd: Tipographija Rikkera. > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:01 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > > > >> Pierre Janet, L??volution de la m?moire et de la notion du temps, > > CHahine, > > >> Paris, 1928. > > >> > > http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/janet_pierre/evolution_memoire_ > > te > > mps/ > > >> evolution_memoire.html > > >> Une ?dition ?lectronique r?alis?e ? partir du livre de Pierre > > >> Janet > > >> (1859-1947) (philosophe devenu m?decin et psychologue), > > >> L'?volution de > > la > > >> m?moire et de la notion du temps. (1928). Compte rendu int?gral > > >> des conf?rences faites en 1928 au Coll?ge de France d'apr?s les > > >> notes st?nographiques. Coll?ge de France, Chaire de psychologie > > >> exp?rimentale > > et > > >> compar?e. Tome III: L'organisation du temps. Paris, ?ditions > > >> Chahine, > > 1928, > > >> pp. 419 ? 624. That's more than 100 pages, so that is probably > > >> too > much. > > >> > > >> The only work of Janet's that has been published in English is a > > >> series > > of > > >> lectures he gave in the US. > > >> According to the Soviet editors of LSVCW, although Vygotsky > > >> rarely > > quoted > > >> Janet, there is reason to believe he was influenced by him. These > > editors > > >> point to AN Leontyev's 1931 article on memory as drawing on > > >> Janet's > > work as > > >> mentioned above. > > >> Here's Wikipedia on Janet: > > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Janet > > >> Andy > > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> -- > > >> ----- > > >> *Andy Blunden* > > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >> > > >> > > >> mike cole wrote: > > >> > > >>> My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and > > >>> his colleagues between roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. > > >>> Anyone able to identify things they would like to read? I will > > >>> try to go back and check out my own wish list. > > >>> > > >>> If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, > > >>> it > > might > > >>> facilitate. > > >>> We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. > > >>> > > >>> mike > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Andy Blunden > > >>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Perhaps one of the papers by Luria which Mike has in his > collection: > > >>> > > >>> http://luria.ucsd.edu/Articles-by-Luria/Luria-by-Language.html > > >>> > > >>> Andy > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> ------------ > > >>> *Andy Blunden* > > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Goncu, Artin wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can > > >>> either write > > >>> to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will > > >>> forward > > >>> them to him. Best, ag > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ---------------------------- Original Message > > >>> ---------------------------- > > >>> Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th > > anniversary > > >>> From: "Larry Nucci" > >>> > > > >>> Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm > > >>> To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" > >>> > > > >>> "Cynthia Garcia Coll" > >>> > > > >>> "Goncu, Artin" > >>> >> > > >>> "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no > > >>> " > >>> > > > >>> "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu > > >>> " > >>> > > > >>> "Prof. C.J. Howe" > >>> > > > >>> "Lewis, Charlie" > >>> > > > >>> "Melanie A. Killen" > >>> > > > >>> "willis.overton@temple.edu > > >>> " < > willis.overton@temple.edu > > >>> > > > >>> "Barbara Rogoff" > >>> > > > >>> "Ruck, Martin" > >>> > > > >>> "Geoffrey B. SAXE" > >>> > > > >>> "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr > > >>> " > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> "Elsbeth Stern" > >>> > > > >>> "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp > > >>> " < > keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp > > >>> > > > >>> "tomas@eva.mpg.de " > > >>> > > > >>> "Elliot TURIEL" > >>> > > > >>> "Stella Vosniadou" > >>> > > > >>> "Cecilia Wainryb" > >>> > > > >>> "Youniss, James" > >>> > > > >>> "silviar@servidor.unam.mx > > >>> " > >>> > > > >>> "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp > > >>> " > > >>> > >>> > >> > > >>> "Phil Zelazo" > >>> >> > > >>> "Susan Rivera" > >>> > > > >>> "Na',ilah Nasir" > >>> > > > >>> "Terezinha Nunes" < > terezinha.nunes@education.ox.ac.uk > > >>> > > > >>> "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov > > >>> " > >>> > > > >>> "Deborah Powers" > >>> > > > >>> "judith.smetana@rochester.edu > > >>> " > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> "Alexandra M. Freund" > >>> > > > >>> "David Witherington" > >>> > > > >>> Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> -------------- > > >>> > > >>> Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - > > >>> > > >>> This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. > > >>> As many of you > > >>> know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned > scientific > > >>> publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human > > >>> Development. I > > >>> recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that > > >>> is connected > > >>> with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special > > >>> occasion. > > >>> Please take a moment to read her request, and send any > > >>> suggestions for such > > >>> highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather > > >>> together > > >>> your suggestions and send them to her. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> With best regards, > > >>> > > >>> Larry > > >>> > > >>> Dear Professor Nucci, > > >>> > > >>> Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor > > >>> of Human > > >>> Development, for your input and advice. As you may already > > >>> know, Karger > > >>> Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To > > >>> mark this > > >>> occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of > > >>> the ordinary. > > >>> When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, > > >>> English wasn't the > > >>> scientific ???lingua franca?? . This is a relatively recent > > >>> phenomenon, many > > >>> great scientists published their work in other languages. Good > > >>> translations > > >>> are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. > > >>> Being able > > to > > >>> understand the meaning of what the original author wrote > > >>> and > > this > > >>> often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is > > >>> surely of vital > > >>> importance. > > >>> > > >>> During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a > > >>> "collection" > > >>> of the most significant scientific work that was not > > >>> originally published > > >>> in English and make a corresponding collection of translations > > >>> available to > > >>> the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal > > >>> to you to > > >>> help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most > > >>> important articles > > >>> in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us > > >>> know a > > >>> handful of the most significant papers in your field of > > >>> expertise not > > >>> available in English *(naming author, title and wherever > > >>> possible, the > > >>> source), we will check whether a translation of suitable > > >>> quality already > > >>> exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an > > >>> english > > >>> translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering > > >>> work (Versuche > > >>> ??ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable > > >>> starting point in > > >>> time. > > >>> > > >>> We do hope that you can participate with us together in what > > >>> should > > >>> hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the > > >>> profile of > > >>> milestones in science and making these more accessible, should > > >>> benefit all. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science > > >>> as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as > > > an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri Jan 23 12:36:36 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 13:36:36 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Notes on Blindness In-Reply-To: References: <1421950142186.25490@unm.edu> <1421964016656.90429@unm.edu> Message-ID: Larry, (if you'll allow me this reduction of your post) Brilliant expansion! -greg On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 12:47 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > Greg, > Memory as requiring the process of reduction of the manifold of experience > does seem to an interesting question which may offer a possibility for > further expansion. I mean this metaphorically as a reciprocal "dance" of > reduction and expansion. > > The "reciprocal" awareness that possibly not only memories but also our > theories and our conceptions may be relying too much on the processes of > memory [after the fact] and therefore loosing sight of the multi-modality > of experience as it unfolds. > Greg as you point "out" - to be seen is to be made (cf. Bakhtin's notion > of "consummation"). > Your insight where you say that filling the whole of the audible > environment is an experience of beauty, which has something to do with the > complexity of the image in motion, alive, moving, unfixed, with shades > and textures constantly > changing. > Instead of being isolated, cut off, preoccupied, internally, you are > presented with a world. You are related to a world. You are addressed by a > world. > Robert Nichols in exploring the meaning of freedom and recognition says, > "To stand in a 'free' relation to the world, to oneself and one's ethical > commitments, is to know that one's standpoint does not exhaust the total > range of meaningful, viable, and worthwhile possibilities." For Robert > beauty as 'being-in-the-world' depends on the "extent" to which we actually > "embody" the world through receptivity, fragility, indeterminacy, and > interconnectivity. [similar sentiments to the notion of "surrender" or > "acceptance" as an ethical commitment] > Robert Nichols perceives an ethical commitment that emerges within an > awareness of how one cares for the world and how one has an "attachment" to > existence. > > Greg, is it possible that memory, and theory "about" how one re-members and > re-cognizes and re-presents and re-duces and then articulates the world as > the "truth" contributes to being isolated, cut off, preoccupied. The > world foreclosed. > > Requiring that "we" once again turn [or re-turn] to being within the world > as situated presence. The musical resonance of "attunement" within the > world prior to re-collecting and re-ducing the world through memory which > highlights the salient features. > > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Annalisa, > > Yes, you said it very well, much better than I did in my prior post which > > was a bit intellectually garbled (and I missed the article that went > along > > with it, so thanks for pointing that out!). > > > > But I do think that there is an interesting point to be made about the > > importance of the reduction of the manifold of experience that is > essential > > to memory. > > > > I once assembled a paper that argued that forgetting should be seen as a > > tool of ethnography since when one reduces one's experience to what is > > remembered, one has gotten to something that was somehow important. > > Reviewers thought it was just an excuse for doing lazy ethnographic > > research. Perhaps it was... > > > > What ever happened to that paper? > > > > I can't remember... > > -greg > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > > wrote: > > > > > Greg! > > > > > > Yes the piece is really great and well produced! > > > > > > If you read the article that accompanies the video on the Times page, > the > > > writers indicate that over time as he adjusted to blindness, he came to > > > revel in the other senses to the point that when he was helping with > the > > > movie, he'd forgotten that he'd gone through that painful time, and > > > apparently wasn't happy to revisit the memories. I think that is the > > point > > > of the last scene with the rain (inside), to show that he began to > "see" > > > differently, with sound. Maybe? At least, that is how I interpreted it. > > > > > > I also thought, as you, it was remarkable that he remembered > photographs, > > > maybe these map in memory differently? Like you say because of > reduction > > of > > > modality? > > > > > > What also seems significant is that if we don't use those organs of > > > perceptions we lose memories of those perceptions. Which may mean that > > > memory is something that must be reconstructed with the organ somehow, > > even > > > if we aren't using the organ to perceive externally while retrieval of > > the > > > memory? I'm not sure I explained that very well? > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jan 23 13:02:46 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 13:02:46 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Notes on Blindness In-Reply-To: References: <1421950142186.25490@unm.edu> <1421964016656.90429@unm.edu> Message-ID: All seems relevant to the imagination thread to me! mike On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 12:36 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Larry, > (if you'll allow me this reduction of your post) > > Brilliant expansion! > > -greg > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 12:47 AM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > Greg, > > Memory as requiring the process of reduction of the manifold of > experience > > does seem to an interesting question which may offer a possibility for > > further expansion. I mean this metaphorically as a reciprocal "dance" of > > reduction and expansion. > > > > The "reciprocal" awareness that possibly not only memories but also our > > theories and our conceptions may be relying too much on the processes of > > memory [after the fact] and therefore loosing sight of the multi-modality > > of experience as it unfolds. > > Greg as you point "out" - to be seen is to be made (cf. Bakhtin's notion > > of "consummation"). > > Your insight where you say that filling the whole of the audible > > environment is an experience of beauty, which has something to do with > the > > complexity of the image in motion, alive, moving, unfixed, with shades > > and textures constantly > > changing. > > Instead of being isolated, cut off, preoccupied, internally, you are > > presented with a world. You are related to a world. You are addressed by > a > > world. > > Robert Nichols in exploring the meaning of freedom and recognition says, > > "To stand in a 'free' relation to the world, to oneself and one's ethical > > commitments, is to know that one's standpoint does not exhaust the total > > range of meaningful, viable, and worthwhile possibilities." For Robert > > beauty as 'being-in-the-world' depends on the "extent" to which we > actually > > "embody" the world through receptivity, fragility, indeterminacy, and > > interconnectivity. [similar sentiments to the notion of "surrender" or > > "acceptance" as an ethical commitment] > > Robert Nichols perceives an ethical commitment that emerges within an > > awareness of how one cares for the world and how one has an "attachment" > to > > existence. > > > > Greg, is it possible that memory, and theory "about" how one re-members > and > > re-cognizes and re-presents and re-duces and then articulates the world > as > > the "truth" contributes to being isolated, cut off, preoccupied. The > > world foreclosed. > > > > Requiring that "we" once again turn [or re-turn] to being within the > world > > as situated presence. The musical resonance of "attunement" within the > > world prior to re-collecting and re-ducing the world through memory which > > highlights the salient features. > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Annalisa, > > > Yes, you said it very well, much better than I did in my prior post > which > > > was a bit intellectually garbled (and I missed the article that went > > along > > > with it, so thanks for pointing that out!). > > > > > > But I do think that there is an interesting point to be made about the > > > importance of the reduction of the manifold of experience that is > > essential > > > to memory. > > > > > > I once assembled a paper that argued that forgetting should be seen as > a > > > tool of ethnography since when one reduces one's experience to what is > > > remembered, one has gotten to something that was somehow important. > > > Reviewers thought it was just an excuse for doing lazy ethnographic > > > research. Perhaps it was... > > > > > > What ever happened to that paper? > > > > > > I can't remember... > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Greg! > > > > > > > > Yes the piece is really great and well produced! > > > > > > > > If you read the article that accompanies the video on the Times page, > > the > > > > writers indicate that over time as he adjusted to blindness, he came > to > > > > revel in the other senses to the point that when he was helping with > > the > > > > movie, he'd forgotten that he'd gone through that painful time, and > > > > apparently wasn't happy to revisit the memories. I think that is the > > > point > > > > of the last scene with the rain (inside), to show that he began to > > "see" > > > > differently, with sound. Maybe? At least, that is how I interpreted > it. > > > > > > > > I also thought, as you, it was remarkable that he remembered > > photographs, > > > > maybe these map in memory differently? Like you say because of > > reduction > > > of > > > > modality? > > > > > > > > What also seems significant is that if we don't use those organs of > > > > perceptions we lose memories of those perceptions. Which may mean > that > > > > memory is something that must be reconstructed with the organ > somehow, > > > even > > > > if we aren't using the organ to perceive externally while retrieval > of > > > the > > > > memory? I'm not sure I explained that very well? > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Jan 23 14:26:51 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 22:26:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> <54C0E6A6.2030008@mira.net> <3FEDDB54-DE45-466B-8D60-E7516D97C595@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <9DB3E713-EB30-4097-9853-68EFBF5EF5CD@uniandes.edu.co> Zinchenko & Wertsch also have a chapter about Shpet in this book. I could scan it next week. Zinchenko, V., & Wertsch, J. (2009). Gustav Shpet?s influence on psychology. In G. Tihanov (Ed.), Gustav Shpet?s contribution to philosophy and cultural theory (pp. 45-55). West Lafayette, IN: Purdue University Press. Martin On Jan 23, 2015, at 12:16 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Peter, > Is there any way to access this chapter online . The abstract indicates > Shept may have been a deep influence which was not acknowledged because of > the political times. > The other chapter by Bahktin titled "Vygotsky's Demons" aslo seems to > explore the same historical influences and I wonder if that chapter is > online? > > There may be some answers to Greg's question on memory as reducing > phenomena to highlight or illuminate salient features > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:41 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > >> Zinchenko on Shpet at >> http://universitypublishingonline.org/cambridge/companions/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9781139001496&cid=CBO9781139001496A017 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd >> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 7:36 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th >> anniversary] >> >> I was going to suggest that too :), but I thought I'd check the two JREEP >> issues (2000) on Shpet first. >> >> On 22 January 2015 at 20:48, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >> >>> Something by Gustav Shpet? This, or an excerpt? >>> >>> Shpet, G. G. (2007). Vnutrenniaia forma slova [The inner form of the >>> word]. In T. Shchedrina (Ed.), Gustav Shpet, Iskusstvo kak vid znaniia >>> I (pp. 323-501). Moskva: Rosspen. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> On Jan 22, 2015, at 12:25 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> Ah! I misunderstood. So ANY non-English work. >>>> >>>> Then Shif would be fine if there is an important unpublished piece. >>>> Attached is an article with a reference to our very on Peter S and a >>>> reference to the work of Lazursky. If there was a chapter from the >>>> following book, or an article, it might be really interesting. >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> Lazursky, A. F. (1918). Estestvennii eksperiment i ego shkol?noje >>>> primenenije [A natural experiment and its school application]. >>>> Petrograd: Tipographija Rikkera. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:01 AM, Andy Blunden >> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Pierre Janet, L??volution de la m?moire et de la notion du temps, >>> CHahine, >>>>> Paris, 1928. >>>>> >>> http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/janet_pierre/evolution_memoire_te >>> mps/ >>>>> evolution_memoire.html >>>>> Une ?dition ?lectronique r?alis?e ? partir du livre de Pierre Janet >>>>> (1859-1947) (philosophe devenu m?decin et psychologue), L'?volution >>>>> de >>> la >>>>> m?moire et de la notion du temps. (1928). Compte rendu int?gral des >>>>> conf?rences faites en 1928 au Coll?ge de France d'apr?s les notes >>>>> st?nographiques. Coll?ge de France, Chaire de psychologie >>>>> exp?rimentale >>> et >>>>> compar?e. Tome III: L'organisation du temps. Paris, ?ditions >>>>> Chahine, >>> 1928, >>>>> pp. 419 ? 624. That's more than 100 pages, so that is probably too >> much. >>>>> >>>>> The only work of Janet's that has been published in English is a >>>>> series >>> of >>>>> lectures he gave in the US. >>>>> According to the Soviet editors of LSVCW, although Vygotsky rarely >>> quoted >>>>> Janet, there is reason to believe he was influenced by him. These >>> editors >>>>> point to AN Leontyev's 1931 article on memory as drawing on Janet's >>> work as >>>>> mentioned above. >>>>> Here's Wikipedia on Janet: >>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Janet >>>>> Andy >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> ----- >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and his >>>>>> colleagues between roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. >>>>>> Anyone able to identify things they would like to read? I will try >>>>>> to go back and check out my own wish list. >>>>>> >>>>>> If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, it >>> might >>>>>> facilitate. >>>>>> We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. >>>>>> >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Andy Blunden >> >>>>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps one of the papers by Luria which Mike has in his >> collection: >>>>>> http://luria.ucsd.edu/Articles-by-Luria/Luria-by-Language.html >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Goncu, Artin wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can >>>>>> either write >>>>>> to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will >>>>>> forward >>>>>> them to him. Best, ag >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------- Original Message >>>>>> ---------------------------- >>>>>> Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th >>> anniversary >>>>>> From: "Larry Nucci" >>>>> > >>>>>> Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm >>>>>> To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" >>>>> > >>>>>> "Cynthia Garcia Coll" >>>>> > >>>>>> "Goncu, Artin" >>> >>>>>> "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no >>>>>> " >>>>> > >>>>>> "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu >>>>>> " >>>>> > >>>>>> "Prof. C.J. Howe" >>>>> > >>>>>> "Lewis, Charlie" >>>>> > >>>>>> "Melanie A. Killen" >>>>> > >>>>>> "willis.overton@temple.edu >>>>>> " < >> willis.overton@temple.edu >>>>>> > >>>>>> "Barbara Rogoff" >>>>> > >>>>>> "Ruck, Martin" >>>>> > >>>>>> "Geoffrey B. SAXE" >>>>> > >>>>>> "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr >>>>>> " >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> "Elsbeth Stern" >>>>> > >>>>>> "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp >>>>>> " < >> keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp >>>>>> > >>>>>> "tomas@eva.mpg.de " >>>>>> > >>>>>> "Elliot TURIEL" >>>>> > >>>>>> "Stella Vosniadou" >>>>> > >>>>>> "Cecilia Wainryb" >>>>> > >>>>>> "Youniss, James" >>>>> > >>>>>> "silviar@servidor.unam.mx >>>>>> " >>>>> > >>>>>> "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp >>>>>> " >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>>> "Phil Zelazo" >>> >>>>>> "Susan Rivera" >>>>> > >>>>>> "Na',ilah Nasir" >>>>> > >>>>>> "Terezinha Nunes" < >> terezinha.nunes@education.ox.ac.uk >>>>>> > >>>>>> "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov >>>>>> " >>>>> > >>>>>> "Deborah Powers" >>>>> > >>>>>> "judith.smetana@rochester.edu >>>>>> " >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> "Alexandra M. Freund" >>>>> > >>>>>> "David Witherington" >>>>> > >>>>>> Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" >>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> -------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - >>>>>> >>>>>> This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. >>>>>> As many of you >>>>>> know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned >> scientific >>>>>> publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human >>>>>> Development. I >>>>>> recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that >>>>>> is connected >>>>>> with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special >>>>>> occasion. >>>>>> Please take a moment to read her request, and send any >>>>>> suggestions for such >>>>>> highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather >>>>>> together >>>>>> your suggestions and send them to her. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> With best regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Larry >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Professor Nucci, >>>>>> >>>>>> Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor >>>>>> of Human >>>>>> Development, for your input and advice. As you may already >>>>>> know, Karger >>>>>> Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To >>>>>> mark this >>>>>> occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of >>>>>> the ordinary. >>>>>> When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, >>>>>> English wasn't the >>>>>> scientific ???lingua franca?? . This is a relatively recent >>>>>> phenomenon, many >>>>>> great scientists published their work in other languages. Good >>>>>> translations >>>>>> are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. Being >>>>>> able >>> to >>>>>> understand the meaning of what the original author wrote >>>>>> and >>> this >>>>>> often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is >>>>>> surely of vital >>>>>> importance. >>>>>> >>>>>> During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a >>>>>> "collection" >>>>>> of the most significant scientific work that was not >>>>>> originally published >>>>>> in English and make a corresponding collection of translations >>>>>> available to >>>>>> the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal >>>>>> to you to >>>>>> help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most >>>>>> important articles >>>>>> in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us >>>>>> know a >>>>>> handful of the most significant papers in your field of >>>>>> expertise not >>>>>> available in English *(naming author, title and wherever >>>>>> possible, the >>>>>> source), we will check whether a translation of suitable >>>>>> quality already >>>>>> exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an >>>>>> english >>>>>> translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering >>>>>> work (Versuche >>>>>> ??ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable >>>>>> starting point in >>>>>> time. >>>>>> >>>>>> We do hope that you can participate with us together in what >>>>>> should >>>>>> hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the >>>>>> profile of >>>>>> milestones in science and making these more accessible, should >>>>>> benefit all. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as >>>>>> an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>> object >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Jan 23 14:57:59 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 15:57:59 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Notes on Blindness In-Reply-To: References: <1421950142186.25490@unm.edu> <1421964016656.90429@unm.edu> Message-ID: <3C6C6AE4-17AC-47DF-938C-8569A115F6AA@gmail.com> Mike and all, I found this quote from Voloshinov (1926) in T.V. AKHUTINA The Theory of Verbal Communication in the Works of M.M. Bakhtin and L.S. Vygotsky (2003, p. 102): "Intonation establishes the close connection between the word and the extralinguistic context. Living intonation is virtually able to release the word from its verbal limits. . . . Intonation is always at the boundary of the verbal and the nonverbal, the spoken and the unspoken. Intonation is oriented in two directions: toward the listener... and toward the object of the utterance as if to a third living participant." I wonder what Bakhtin had to say about non-verbal gesture which accompanies speech, which could not be seen by a blind person. Does one sense become heightened when another is compromised? Does language provide redundancy to help the listener? Henry > On Jan 23, 2015, at 2:02 PM, mike cole wrote: > > All seems relevant to the imagination thread to me! > mike > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 12:36 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > >> Larry, >> (if you'll allow me this reduction of your post) >> >> Brilliant expansion! >> >> -greg >> >> On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 12:47 AM, Larry Purss >> wrote: >> >>> Greg, >>> Memory as requiring the process of reduction of the manifold of >> experience >>> does seem to an interesting question which may offer a possibility for >>> further expansion. I mean this metaphorically as a reciprocal "dance" of >>> reduction and expansion. >>> >>> The "reciprocal" awareness that possibly not only memories but also our >>> theories and our conceptions may be relying too much on the processes of >>> memory [after the fact] and therefore loosing sight of the multi-modality >>> of experience as it unfolds. >>> Greg as you point "out" - to be seen is to be made (cf. Bakhtin's notion >>> of "consummation"). >>> Your insight where you say that filling the whole of the audible >>> environment is an experience of beauty, which has something to do with >> the >>> complexity of the image in motion, alive, moving, unfixed, with shades >>> and textures constantly >>> changing. >>> Instead of being isolated, cut off, preoccupied, internally, you are >>> presented with a world. You are related to a world. You are addressed by >> a >>> world. >>> Robert Nichols in exploring the meaning of freedom and recognition says, >>> "To stand in a 'free' relation to the world, to oneself and one's ethical >>> commitments, is to know that one's standpoint does not exhaust the total >>> range of meaningful, viable, and worthwhile possibilities." For Robert >>> beauty as 'being-in-the-world' depends on the "extent" to which we >> actually >>> "embody" the world through receptivity, fragility, indeterminacy, and >>> interconnectivity. [similar sentiments to the notion of "surrender" or >>> "acceptance" as an ethical commitment] >>> Robert Nichols perceives an ethical commitment that emerges within an >>> awareness of how one cares for the world and how one has an "attachment" >> to >>> existence. >>> >>> Greg, is it possible that memory, and theory "about" how one re-members >> and >>> re-cognizes and re-presents and re-duces and then articulates the world >> as >>> the "truth" contributes to being isolated, cut off, preoccupied. The >>> world foreclosed. >>> >>> Requiring that "we" once again turn [or re-turn] to being within the >> world >>> as situated presence. The musical resonance of "attunement" within the >>> world prior to re-collecting and re-ducing the world through memory which >>> highlights the salient features. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Greg Thompson < >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Annalisa, >>>> Yes, you said it very well, much better than I did in my prior post >> which >>>> was a bit intellectually garbled (and I missed the article that went >>> along >>>> with it, so thanks for pointing that out!). >>>> >>>> But I do think that there is an interesting point to be made about the >>>> importance of the reduction of the manifold of experience that is >>> essential >>>> to memory. >>>> >>>> I once assembled a paper that argued that forgetting should be seen as >> a >>>> tool of ethnography since when one reduces one's experience to what is >>>> remembered, one has gotten to something that was somehow important. >>>> Reviewers thought it was just an excuse for doing lazy ethnographic >>>> research. Perhaps it was... >>>> >>>> What ever happened to that paper? >>>> >>>> I can't remember... >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Greg! >>>>> >>>>> Yes the piece is really great and well produced! >>>>> >>>>> If you read the article that accompanies the video on the Times page, >>> the >>>>> writers indicate that over time as he adjusted to blindness, he came >> to >>>>> revel in the other senses to the point that when he was helping with >>> the >>>>> movie, he'd forgotten that he'd gone through that painful time, and >>>>> apparently wasn't happy to revisit the memories. I think that is the >>>> point >>>>> of the last scene with the rain (inside), to show that he began to >>> "see" >>>>> differently, with sound. Maybe? At least, that is how I interpreted >> it. >>>>> >>>>> I also thought, as you, it was remarkable that he remembered >>> photographs, >>>>> maybe these map in memory differently? Like you say because of >>> reduction >>>> of >>>>> modality? >>>>> >>>>> What also seems significant is that if we don't use those organs of >>>>> perceptions we lose memories of those perceptions. Which may mean >> that >>>>> memory is something that must be reconstructed with the organ >> somehow, >>>> even >>>>> if we aren't using the organ to perceive externally while retrieval >> of >>>> the >>>>> memory? I'm not sure I explained that very well? >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Jan 23 15:00:51 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 15:00:51 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th anniversary] In-Reply-To: <9DB3E713-EB30-4097-9853-68EFBF5EF5CD@uniandes.edu.co> References: <54C06890.6080800@mira.net> <54C0E6A6.2030008@mira.net> <3FEDDB54-DE45-466B-8D60-E7516D97C595@uniandes.edu.co> <9DB3E713-EB30-4097-9853-68EFBF5EF5CD@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Martin, thank you for this offer. I would like to learn how these ideas were circulating but then became excluded from the conversation. Larry On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:26 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Zinchenko & Wertsch also have a chapter about Shpet in this book. I could > scan it next week. > > Zinchenko, V., & Wertsch, J. (2009). Gustav Shpet?s influence on > psychology. In G. Tihanov (Ed.), Gustav Shpet?s contribution to philosophy > and cultural theory (pp. 45-55). West Lafayette, IN: Purdue University > Press. > > Martin > > On Jan 23, 2015, at 12:16 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Peter, > > Is there any way to access this chapter online . The abstract indicates > > Shept may have been a deep influence which was not acknowledged because > of > > the political times. > > The other chapter by Bahktin titled "Vygotsky's Demons" aslo seems to > > explore the same historical influences and I wonder if that chapter is > > online? > > > > There may be some answers to Greg's question on memory as reducing > > phenomena to highlight or illuminate salient features > > > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:41 AM, Peter Smagorinsky > wrote: > > > >> Zinchenko on Shpet at > >> > http://universitypublishingonline.org/cambridge/companions/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9781139001496&cid=CBO9781139001496A017 > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >> xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd > >> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 7:36 PM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [Fwd: Request from Karger publishing on their > 125th > >> anniversary] > >> > >> I was going to suggest that too :), but I thought I'd check the two > JREEP > >> issues (2000) on Shpet first. > >> > >> On 22 January 2015 at 20:48, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Something by Gustav Shpet? This, or an excerpt? > >>> > >>> Shpet, G. G. (2007). Vnutrenniaia forma slova [The inner form of the > >>> word]. In T. Shchedrina (Ed.), Gustav Shpet, Iskusstvo kak vid znaniia > >>> I (pp. 323-501). Moskva: Rosspen. > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> > >>> On Jan 22, 2015, at 12:25 PM, mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>>> Ah! I misunderstood. So ANY non-English work. > >>>> > >>>> Then Shif would be fine if there is an important unpublished piece. > >>>> Attached is an article with a reference to our very on Peter S and a > >>>> reference to the work of Lazursky. If there was a chapter from the > >>>> following book, or an article, it might be really interesting. > >>>> > >>>> mike > >>>> > >>>> Lazursky, A. F. (1918). Estestvennii eksperiment i ego shkol?noje > >>>> primenenije [A natural experiment and its school application]. > >>>> Petrograd: Tipographija Rikkera. > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:01 AM, Andy Blunden > >> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Pierre Janet, L??volution de la m?moire et de la notion du temps, > >>> CHahine, > >>>>> Paris, 1928. > >>>>> > >>> http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/janet_pierre/evolution_memoire_te > >>> mps/ > >>>>> evolution_memoire.html > >>>>> Une ?dition ?lectronique r?alis?e ? partir du livre de Pierre Janet > >>>>> (1859-1947) (philosophe devenu m?decin et psychologue), L'?volution > >>>>> de > >>> la > >>>>> m?moire et de la notion du temps. (1928). Compte rendu int?gral des > >>>>> conf?rences faites en 1928 au Coll?ge de France d'apr?s les notes > >>>>> st?nographiques. Coll?ge de France, Chaire de psychologie > >>>>> exp?rimentale > >>> et > >>>>> compar?e. Tome III: L'organisation du temps. Paris, ?ditions > >>>>> Chahine, > >>> 1928, > >>>>> pp. 419 ? 624. That's more than 100 pages, so that is probably too > >> much. > >>>>> > >>>>> The only work of Janet's that has been published in English is a > >>>>> series > >>> of > >>>>> lectures he gave in the US. > >>>>> According to the Soviet editors of LSVCW, although Vygotsky rarely > >>> quoted > >>>>> Janet, there is reason to believe he was influenced by him. These > >>> editors > >>>>> point to AN Leontyev's 1931 article on memory as drawing on Janet's > >>> work as > >>>>> mentioned above. > >>>>> Here's Wikipedia on Janet: > >>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Janet > >>>>> Andy > >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> ----- > >>>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> mike cole wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> My vote would be for some of the papers referred to by LSV and his > >>>>>> colleagues between roughly 1925-1934 which are not in English. > >>>>>> Anyone able to identify things they would like to read? I will try > >>>>>> to go back and check out my own wish list. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If people could nominate candidates on xmca so other could see, it > >>> might > >>>>>> facilitate. > >>>>>> We could then send the Kargers and Larry a collective wish list. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> mike > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Andy Blunden >>> >>>>>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Perhaps one of the papers by Luria which Mike has in his > >> collection: > >>>>>> http://luria.ucsd.edu/Articles-by-Luria/Luria-by-Language.html > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Andy > >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>>> ------------ > >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Goncu, Artin wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Are there any suggestions from the xmca community? You can > >>>>>> either write > >>>>>> to Larry Nucci directly or send me your suggestions and I will > >>>>>> forward > >>>>>> them to him. Best, ag > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ---------------------------- Original Message > >>>>>> ---------------------------- > >>>>>> Subject: Request from Karger publishing on their 125th > >>> anniversary > >>>>>> From: "Larry Nucci" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Date: Wed, January 21, 2015 5:22 pm > >>>>>> To: "ILEANA ENESCO ARANA" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Cynthia Garcia Coll" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Goncu, Artin" >>>> > >>>>>> "bente.hagtvet@isp.uio.no > >>>>>> " >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "harrispa@gse.harvard.edu > >>>>>> " >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Prof. C.J. Howe" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Lewis, Charlie" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Melanie A. Killen" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "willis.overton@temple.edu > >>>>>> " < > >> willis.overton@temple.edu > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Barbara Rogoff" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Ruck, Martin" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Geoffrey B. SAXE" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Liliane.Sprenger-Charolles@univ-paris5.fr > >>>>>> " > >>>>>> >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Elsbeth Stern" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp > >>>>>> " < > >> keiko-ta@fb3.so-net.ne.jp > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "tomas@eva.mpg.de " > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Elliot TURIEL" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Stella Vosniadou" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Cecilia Wainryb" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Youniss, James" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "silviar@servidor.unam.mx > >>>>>> " >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "sitakura@bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp > >>>>>> " > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> "Phil Zelazo" >>>> > >>>>>> "Susan Rivera" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Na',ilah Nasir" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Terezinha Nunes" < > >> terezinha.nunes@education.ox.ac.uk > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Marc_H_Bornstein@nih.gov > >>>>>> " >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Deborah Powers" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "judith.smetana@rochester.edu > >>>>>> " > >>>>>> >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Alexandra M. Freund" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "David Witherington" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Cc: "Karger, Gabriella" >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>>> -------------- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dear Members of the HD Editorial Board - > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This year marks the 125th anniversary of Karger Publishing. > >>>>>> As many of you > >>>>>> know, Karger is one of the few remaining family owned > >> scientific > >>>>>> publishers. They have been remarkably supportive of Human > >>>>>> Development. I > >>>>>> recently received the request below from Gabriella Karger that > >>>>>> is connected > >>>>>> with the activities she is coordinating to mark this special > >>>>>> occasion. > >>>>>> Please take a moment to read her request, and send any > >>>>>> suggestions for such > >>>>>> highly significant research papers to me, so that I may gather > >>>>>> together > >>>>>> your suggestions and send them to her. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> With best regards, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Larry > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dear Professor Nucci, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Whilst the year is still young, I am contacting you as Editor > >>>>>> of Human > >>>>>> Development, for your input and advice. As you may already > >>>>>> know, Karger > >>>>>> Publishers will celebrate its 125th anniversary this year. To > >>>>>> mark this > >>>>>> occasion, we would like to attempt something a little out of > >>>>>> the ordinary. > >>>>>> When my great-grand father founded the publishing house, > >>>>>> English wasn't the > >>>>>> scientific ???lingua franca?? . This is a relatively recent > >>>>>> phenomenon, many > >>>>>> great scientists published their work in other languages. Good > >>>>>> translations > >>>>>> are often either unavailable or difficult to locate. Being > >>>>>> able > >>> to > >>>>>> understand the meaning of what the original author wrote > >>>>>> and > >>> this > >>>>>> often-cited foundations upon which modern work is built, is > >>>>>> surely of vital > >>>>>> importance. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> During our anniversary year, we would like to put together a > >>>>>> "collection" > >>>>>> of the most significant scientific work that was not > >>>>>> originally published > >>>>>> in English and make a corresponding collection of translations > >>>>>> available to > >>>>>> the scientific community on our website. May we kindly appeal > >>>>>> to you to > >>>>>> help us with this? The challenge is to identify the most > >>>>>> important articles > >>>>>> in the whole field of biomedical science. *If you would let us > >>>>>> know a > >>>>>> handful of the most significant papers in your field of > >>>>>> expertise not > >>>>>> available in English *(naming author, title and wherever > >>>>>> possible, the > >>>>>> source), we will check whether a translation of suitable > >>>>>> quality already > >>>>>> exists, look into the copyright issue and arrange to have an > >>>>>> english > >>>>>> translation made if none is available. Mendel's pioneering > >>>>>> work (Versuche > >>>>>> ??ber Pflanzen-Hybriden) dating from 1865/6 is a suitable > >>>>>> starting point in > >>>>>> time. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We do hope that you can participate with us together in what > >>>>>> should > >>>>>> hopefully prove to be an interesting project. Raising the > >>>>>> profile of > >>>>>> milestones in science and making these more accessible, should > >>>>>> benefit all. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as > >>>>>> an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > >>> object > >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Jan 23 15:18:03 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 15:18:03 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Notes on Blindness In-Reply-To: <3C6C6AE4-17AC-47DF-938C-8569A115F6AA@gmail.com> References: <1421950142186.25490@unm.edu> <1421964016656.90429@unm.edu> <3C6C6AE4-17AC-47DF-938C-8569A115F6AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Henry, This quote, especially the aspect: Intonation is always at the boundary of the verbal and the nonverbal, the spoken and the unspoken. Intonation is oriented in two directions: toward the listener... and toward the object of the utterance as if to a third living participant. This brings in the cornerstone of the 'object" AS IF a third living participant. Intonation, attunement, and resonance exploring the rhythm AT the boundary or the margin of this triangulated "space" of where possibility exists. This extralinguistic context with its felt structure which is not yet articulated. On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:57 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Mike and all, > I found this quote from Voloshinov (1926) in T.V. AKHUTINA > The Theory of Verbal Communication in the Works of M.M. Bakhtin and L.S. > Vygotsky (2003, p. 102): > "Intonation establishes the close connection between the word and the > extralinguistic context. Living intonation is virtually able to release the > word from its verbal limits. . . . Intonation is always at the boundary of > the verbal and the nonverbal, the spoken and the unspoken. Intonation is > oriented in two directions: toward the listener... and toward the object of > the utterance as if to a third living participant." > > I wonder what Bakhtin had to say about non-verbal gesture which > accompanies speech, which could not be seen by a blind person. Does one > sense become heightened when another is compromised? Does language provide > redundancy to help the listener? > > Henry > > > > > > > > On Jan 23, 2015, at 2:02 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > All seems relevant to the imagination thread to me! > > mike > > > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 12:36 PM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> Larry, > >> (if you'll allow me this reduction of your post) > >> > >> Brilliant expansion! > >> > >> -greg > >> > >> On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 12:47 AM, Larry Purss > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Greg, > >>> Memory as requiring the process of reduction of the manifold of > >> experience > >>> does seem to an interesting question which may offer a possibility for > >>> further expansion. I mean this metaphorically as a reciprocal "dance" > of > >>> reduction and expansion. > >>> > >>> The "reciprocal" awareness that possibly not only memories but also our > >>> theories and our conceptions may be relying too much on the processes > of > >>> memory [after the fact] and therefore loosing sight of the > multi-modality > >>> of experience as it unfolds. > >>> Greg as you point "out" - to be seen is to be made (cf. Bakhtin's > notion > >>> of "consummation"). > >>> Your insight where you say that filling the whole of the audible > >>> environment is an experience of beauty, which has something to do with > >> the > >>> complexity of the image in motion, alive, moving, unfixed, with > shades > >>> and textures constantly > >>> changing. > >>> Instead of being isolated, cut off, preoccupied, internally, you are > >>> presented with a world. You are related to a world. You are addressed > by > >> a > >>> world. > >>> Robert Nichols in exploring the meaning of freedom and recognition > says, > >>> "To stand in a 'free' relation to the world, to oneself and one's > ethical > >>> commitments, is to know that one's standpoint does not exhaust the > total > >>> range of meaningful, viable, and worthwhile possibilities." For Robert > >>> beauty as 'being-in-the-world' depends on the "extent" to which we > >> actually > >>> "embody" the world through receptivity, fragility, indeterminacy, and > >>> interconnectivity. [similar sentiments to the notion of "surrender" or > >>> "acceptance" as an ethical commitment] > >>> Robert Nichols perceives an ethical commitment that emerges within an > >>> awareness of how one cares for the world and how one has an > "attachment" > >> to > >>> existence. > >>> > >>> Greg, is it possible that memory, and theory "about" how one re-members > >> and > >>> re-cognizes and re-presents and re-duces and then articulates the world > >> as > >>> the "truth" contributes to being isolated, cut off, preoccupied. The > >>> world foreclosed. > >>> > >>> Requiring that "we" once again turn [or re-turn] to being within the > >> world > >>> as situated presence. The musical resonance of "attunement" within the > >>> world prior to re-collecting and re-ducing the world through memory > which > >>> highlights the salient features. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Greg Thompson < > >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Annalisa, > >>>> Yes, you said it very well, much better than I did in my prior post > >> which > >>>> was a bit intellectually garbled (and I missed the article that went > >>> along > >>>> with it, so thanks for pointing that out!). > >>>> > >>>> But I do think that there is an interesting point to be made about the > >>>> importance of the reduction of the manifold of experience that is > >>> essential > >>>> to memory. > >>>> > >>>> I once assembled a paper that argued that forgetting should be seen as > >> a > >>>> tool of ethnography since when one reduces one's experience to what is > >>>> remembered, one has gotten to something that was somehow important. > >>>> Reviewers thought it was just an excuse for doing lazy ethnographic > >>>> research. Perhaps it was... > >>>> > >>>> What ever happened to that paper? > >>>> > >>>> I can't remember... > >>>> -greg > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Greg! > >>>>> > >>>>> Yes the piece is really great and well produced! > >>>>> > >>>>> If you read the article that accompanies the video on the Times page, > >>> the > >>>>> writers indicate that over time as he adjusted to blindness, he came > >> to > >>>>> revel in the other senses to the point that when he was helping with > >>> the > >>>>> movie, he'd forgotten that he'd gone through that painful time, and > >>>>> apparently wasn't happy to revisit the memories. I think that is the > >>>> point > >>>>> of the last scene with the rain (inside), to show that he began to > >>> "see" > >>>>> differently, with sound. Maybe? At least, that is how I interpreted > >> it. > >>>>> > >>>>> I also thought, as you, it was remarkable that he remembered > >>> photographs, > >>>>> maybe these map in memory differently? Like you say because of > >>> reduction > >>>> of > >>>>> modality? > >>>>> > >>>>> What also seems significant is that if we don't use those organs of > >>>>> perceptions we lose memories of those perceptions. Which may mean > >> that > >>>>> memory is something that must be reconstructed with the organ > >> somehow, > >>>> even > >>>>> if we aren't using the organ to perceive externally while retrieval > >> of > >>>> the > >>>>> memory? I'm not sure I explained that very well? > >>>>> > >>>>> Kind regards, > >>>>> > >>>>> Annalisa > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>> Assistant Professor > >>>> Department of Anthropology > >>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>> Brigham Young University > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >> Assistant Professor > >> Department of Anthropology > >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >> Brigham Young University > >> Provo, UT 84602 > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jan 23 15:50:15 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 15:50:15 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Notes on Blindness In-Reply-To: References: <1421950142186.25490@unm.edu> <1421964016656.90429@unm.edu> <3C6C6AE4-17AC-47DF-938C-8569A115F6AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Henry,Larry et al -- ?I understand the use of the term "at the boundary of the verbal and the nonverbal." I for sure agree that ?intonation is essential to language. The word boundary, I believe, may undercut the equally important idea that intonation *infuses* language. *It* is not on the border. I love watching signers, knowing no sign, because of the intonation and dancing movements that accompany the oral speech. It is significant that Tanya Akhutina is using these ideas because she is one of the leading practitioners of Luria's ideas. In *Man With a Shattered World* and elsewhere, Luria talks of "kinetic melodies" and uses such melodies as part of this program of remediation of Zasetski's shattered brain. Oliver Sachs has just written a book on music I have not seen yet. It must have a good deal to say here. mike mike On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Henry, > This quote, especially the aspect: > > Intonation is always at the boundary of the verbal and the nonverbal, the > spoken and the unspoken. Intonation is oriented in two directions: toward > the listener... and toward the object of the utterance as if to a third > living participant. > > This brings in the cornerstone of the 'object" AS IF a third living > participant. Intonation, attunement, and resonance exploring the rhythm AT > the boundary or the margin of this triangulated "space" of where > possibility exists. This extralinguistic context with its felt structure > which is not yet articulated. > > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:57 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > Mike and all, > > I found this quote from Voloshinov (1926) in T.V. AKHUTINA > > The Theory of Verbal Communication in the Works of M.M. Bakhtin and L.S. > > Vygotsky (2003, p. 102): > > "Intonation establishes the close connection between the word and the > > extralinguistic context. Living intonation is virtually able to release > the > > word from its verbal limits. . . . Intonation is always at the boundary > of > > the verbal and the nonverbal, the spoken and the unspoken. Intonation is > > oriented in two directions: toward the listener... and toward the object > of > > the utterance as if to a third living participant." > > > > I wonder what Bakhtin had to say about non-verbal gesture which > > accompanies speech, which could not be seen by a blind person. Does one > > sense become heightened when another is compromised? Does language > provide > > redundancy to help the listener? > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 23, 2015, at 2:02 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > All seems relevant to the imagination thread to me! > > > mike > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 12:36 PM, Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Larry, > > >> (if you'll allow me this reduction of your post) > > >> > > >> Brilliant expansion! > > >> > > >> -greg > > >> > > >> On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 12:47 AM, Larry Purss > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Greg, > > >>> Memory as requiring the process of reduction of the manifold of > > >> experience > > >>> does seem to an interesting question which may offer a possibility > for > > >>> further expansion. I mean this metaphorically as a reciprocal "dance" > > of > > >>> reduction and expansion. > > >>> > > >>> The "reciprocal" awareness that possibly not only memories but also > our > > >>> theories and our conceptions may be relying too much on the processes > > of > > >>> memory [after the fact] and therefore loosing sight of the > > multi-modality > > >>> of experience as it unfolds. > > >>> Greg as you point "out" - to be seen is to be made (cf. Bakhtin's > > notion > > >>> of "consummation"). > > >>> Your insight where you say that filling the whole of the audible > > >>> environment is an experience of beauty, which has something to do > with > > >> the > > >>> complexity of the image in motion, alive, moving, unfixed, with > > shades > > >>> and textures constantly > > >>> changing. > > >>> Instead of being isolated, cut off, preoccupied, internally, you are > > >>> presented with a world. You are related to a world. You are addressed > > by > > >> a > > >>> world. > > >>> Robert Nichols in exploring the meaning of freedom and recognition > > says, > > >>> "To stand in a 'free' relation to the world, to oneself and one's > > ethical > > >>> commitments, is to know that one's standpoint does not exhaust the > > total > > >>> range of meaningful, viable, and worthwhile possibilities." For > Robert > > >>> beauty as 'being-in-the-world' depends on the "extent" to which we > > >> actually > > >>> "embody" the world through receptivity, fragility, indeterminacy, and > > >>> interconnectivity. [similar sentiments to the notion of "surrender" > or > > >>> "acceptance" as an ethical commitment] > > >>> Robert Nichols perceives an ethical commitment that emerges within an > > >>> awareness of how one cares for the world and how one has an > > "attachment" > > >> to > > >>> existence. > > >>> > > >>> Greg, is it possible that memory, and theory "about" how one > re-members > > >> and > > >>> re-cognizes and re-presents and re-duces and then articulates the > world > > >> as > > >>> the "truth" contributes to being isolated, cut off, preoccupied. > The > > >>> world foreclosed. > > >>> > > >>> Requiring that "we" once again turn [or re-turn] to being within the > > >> world > > >>> as situated presence. The musical resonance of "attunement" within > the > > >>> world prior to re-collecting and re-ducing the world through memory > > which > > >>> highlights the salient features. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Greg Thompson < > > >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Annalisa, > > >>>> Yes, you said it very well, much better than I did in my prior post > > >> which > > >>>> was a bit intellectually garbled (and I missed the article that went > > >>> along > > >>>> with it, so thanks for pointing that out!). > > >>>> > > >>>> But I do think that there is an interesting point to be made about > the > > >>>> importance of the reduction of the manifold of experience that is > > >>> essential > > >>>> to memory. > > >>>> > > >>>> I once assembled a paper that argued that forgetting should be seen > as > > >> a > > >>>> tool of ethnography since when one reduces one's experience to what > is > > >>>> remembered, one has gotten to something that was somehow important. > > >>>> Reviewers thought it was just an excuse for doing lazy ethnographic > > >>>> research. Perhaps it was... > > >>>> > > >>>> What ever happened to that paper? > > >>>> > > >>>> I can't remember... > > >>>> -greg > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Greg! > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Yes the piece is really great and well produced! > > >>>>> > > >>>>> If you read the article that accompanies the video on the Times > page, > > >>> the > > >>>>> writers indicate that over time as he adjusted to blindness, he > came > > >> to > > >>>>> revel in the other senses to the point that when he was helping > with > > >>> the > > >>>>> movie, he'd forgotten that he'd gone through that painful time, and > > >>>>> apparently wasn't happy to revisit the memories. I think that is > the > > >>>> point > > >>>>> of the last scene with the rain (inside), to show that he began to > > >>> "see" > > >>>>> differently, with sound. Maybe? At least, that is how I interpreted > > >> it. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I also thought, as you, it was remarkable that he remembered > > >>> photographs, > > >>>>> maybe these map in memory differently? Like you say because of > > >>> reduction > > >>>> of > > >>>>> modality? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> What also seems significant is that if we don't use those organs of > > >>>>> perceptions we lose memories of those perceptions. Which may mean > > >> that > > >>>>> memory is something that must be reconstructed with the organ > > >> somehow, > > >>>> even > > >>>>> if we aren't using the organ to perceive externally while retrieval > > >> of > > >>>> the > > >>>>> memory? I'm not sure I explained that very well? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Kind regards, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Annalisa > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> -- > > >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > >>>> Assistant Professor > > >>>> Department of Anthropology > > >>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > >>>> Brigham Young University > > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > >>>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > >> Assistant Professor > > >> Department of Anthropology > > >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > >> Brigham Young University > > >> Provo, UT 84602 > > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Jan 23 16:39:26 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 16:39:26 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Notes on Blindness In-Reply-To: References: <1421950142186.25490@unm.edu> <1421964016656.90429@unm.edu> <3C6C6AE4-17AC-47DF-938C-8569A115F6AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mike, This term "infusion" seems to suggest "permeable" type flowing intonation into words. Luria's voice should definitely be added to explore this realm. Adding Zinchenko's voice to this chorus, in the book chapter "Thought and Word The Approaches of L. S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet" Zinchenko wrote" Andrew Bely saw movement and rhythm behind thought. Mikhail Bakhtin saw emotion and will behind thought, and he saw intonation IN thought, "the truly acting mind is a mind of emotions and volition, a mind of intonation, and this intonation essentially PENETRATES all the significant moments of thinking" [Bahktin]. He also saw behind thought another person - an interlocutor, or participant in a dialogue, "Human thought becomes a true thought, an idea, only under conditions of live contact with someone else's thought embodied in someone else's voice, which is someone else's mind expressed in words .... The idea is a LIVING EVENT, occurring in a point of dramatic meeting of two or more minds. In this regard, the idea is similar to word, with which it is dialectically united" [Bahktin]. Vygotsky expressed a similar idea about thought as a unity of communication and generalization. [page 214] So the term "boundary" may be an inaccurate metaphor for exploring this realm implying two separated places or poles [the verbal and the nonverbal]. The realm we are exploring is trying to convey that ALL living events including verbal events are "infused" with rhythm and intonation. On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 3:50 PM, mike cole wrote: > Henry,Larry et al -- ?I understand the use of the term "at the boundary of > the verbal and the nonverbal." I for sure agree that ?intonation is > essential to language. The word boundary, I believe, may undercut the > equally important idea that intonation *infuses* language. *It* is not on > the border. I love watching signers, knowing no sign, because of the > intonation and dancing movements that accompany the oral speech. > > It is significant that Tanya Akhutina is using these ideas because she is > one of the leading > practitioners of Luria's ideas. In *Man With a Shattered World* and > elsewhere, Luria talks of "kinetic melodies" and uses such melodies as part > of this program of remediation of Zasetski's shattered brain. Oliver Sachs > has just written a book on music I have not seen yet. It must have a good > deal to say here. > mike > > mike > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Henry, > > This quote, especially the aspect: > > > > Intonation is always at the boundary of the verbal and the nonverbal, > the > > spoken and the unspoken. Intonation is oriented in two directions: toward > > the listener... and toward the object of the utterance as if to a third > > living participant. > > > > This brings in the cornerstone of the 'object" AS IF a third living > > participant. Intonation, attunement, and resonance exploring the rhythm > AT > > the boundary or the margin of this triangulated "space" of where > > possibility exists. This extralinguistic context with its felt structure > > which is not yet articulated. > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:57 PM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > > > Mike and all, > > > I found this quote from Voloshinov (1926) in T.V. AKHUTINA > > > The Theory of Verbal Communication in the Works of M.M. Bakhtin and > L.S. > > > Vygotsky (2003, p. 102): > > > "Intonation establishes the close connection between the word and the > > > extralinguistic context. Living intonation is virtually able to release > > the > > > word from its verbal limits. . . . Intonation is always at the boundary > > of > > > the verbal and the nonverbal, the spoken and the unspoken. Intonation > is > > > oriented in two directions: toward the listener... and toward the > object > > of > > > the utterance as if to a third living participant." > > > > > > I wonder what Bakhtin had to say about non-verbal gesture which > > > accompanies speech, which could not be seen by a blind person. Does one > > > sense become heightened when another is compromised? Does language > > provide > > > redundancy to help the listener? > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 23, 2015, at 2:02 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > > All seems relevant to the imagination thread to me! > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 12:36 PM, Greg Thompson < > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Larry, > > > >> (if you'll allow me this reduction of your post) > > > >> > > > >> Brilliant expansion! > > > >> > > > >> -greg > > > >> > > > >> On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 12:47 AM, Larry Purss > > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Greg, > > > >>> Memory as requiring the process of reduction of the manifold of > > > >> experience > > > >>> does seem to an interesting question which may offer a possibility > > for > > > >>> further expansion. I mean this metaphorically as a reciprocal > "dance" > > > of > > > >>> reduction and expansion. > > > >>> > > > >>> The "reciprocal" awareness that possibly not only memories but also > > our > > > >>> theories and our conceptions may be relying too much on the > processes > > > of > > > >>> memory [after the fact] and therefore loosing sight of the > > > multi-modality > > > >>> of experience as it unfolds. > > > >>> Greg as you point "out" - to be seen is to be made (cf. Bakhtin's > > > notion > > > >>> of "consummation"). > > > >>> Your insight where you say that filling the whole of the audible > > > >>> environment is an experience of beauty, which has something to do > > with > > > >> the > > > >>> complexity of the image in motion, alive, moving, unfixed, with > > > shades > > > >>> and textures constantly > > > >>> changing. > > > >>> Instead of being isolated, cut off, preoccupied, internally, you > are > > > >>> presented with a world. You are related to a world. You are > addressed > > > by > > > >> a > > > >>> world. > > > >>> Robert Nichols in exploring the meaning of freedom and recognition > > > says, > > > >>> "To stand in a 'free' relation to the world, to oneself and one's > > > ethical > > > >>> commitments, is to know that one's standpoint does not exhaust the > > > total > > > >>> range of meaningful, viable, and worthwhile possibilities." For > > Robert > > > >>> beauty as 'being-in-the-world' depends on the "extent" to which we > > > >> actually > > > >>> "embody" the world through receptivity, fragility, indeterminacy, > and > > > >>> interconnectivity. [similar sentiments to the notion of "surrender" > > or > > > >>> "acceptance" as an ethical commitment] > > > >>> Robert Nichols perceives an ethical commitment that emerges within > an > > > >>> awareness of how one cares for the world and how one has an > > > "attachment" > > > >> to > > > >>> existence. > > > >>> > > > >>> Greg, is it possible that memory, and theory "about" how one > > re-members > > > >> and > > > >>> re-cognizes and re-presents and re-duces and then articulates the > > world > > > >> as > > > >>> the "truth" contributes to being isolated, cut off, preoccupied. > > The > > > >>> world foreclosed. > > > >>> > > > >>> Requiring that "we" once again turn [or re-turn] to being within > the > > > >> world > > > >>> as situated presence. The musical resonance of "attunement" within > > the > > > >>> world prior to re-collecting and re-ducing the world through memory > > > which > > > >>> highlights the salient features. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Greg Thompson < > > > >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > >>> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> Annalisa, > > > >>>> Yes, you said it very well, much better than I did in my prior > post > > > >> which > > > >>>> was a bit intellectually garbled (and I missed the article that > went > > > >>> along > > > >>>> with it, so thanks for pointing that out!). > > > >>>> > > > >>>> But I do think that there is an interesting point to be made about > > the > > > >>>> importance of the reduction of the manifold of experience that is > > > >>> essential > > > >>>> to memory. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> I once assembled a paper that argued that forgetting should be > seen > > as > > > >> a > > > >>>> tool of ethnography since when one reduces one's experience to > what > > is > > > >>>> remembered, one has gotten to something that was somehow > important. > > > >>>> Reviewers thought it was just an excuse for doing lazy > ethnographic > > > >>>> research. Perhaps it was... > > > >>>> > > > >>>> What ever happened to that paper? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> I can't remember... > > > >>>> -greg > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Annalisa Aguilar < > annalisa@unm.edu > > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> Greg! > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Yes the piece is really great and well produced! > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> If you read the article that accompanies the video on the Times > > page, > > > >>> the > > > >>>>> writers indicate that over time as he adjusted to blindness, he > > came > > > >> to > > > >>>>> revel in the other senses to the point that when he was helping > > with > > > >>> the > > > >>>>> movie, he'd forgotten that he'd gone through that painful time, > and > > > >>>>> apparently wasn't happy to revisit the memories. I think that is > > the > > > >>>> point > > > >>>>> of the last scene with the rain (inside), to show that he began > to > > > >>> "see" > > > >>>>> differently, with sound. Maybe? At least, that is how I > interpreted > > > >> it. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> I also thought, as you, it was remarkable that he remembered > > > >>> photographs, > > > >>>>> maybe these map in memory differently? Like you say because of > > > >>> reduction > > > >>>> of > > > >>>>> modality? > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> What also seems significant is that if we don't use those organs > of > > > >>>>> perceptions we lose memories of those perceptions. Which may mean > > > >> that > > > >>>>> memory is something that must be reconstructed with the organ > > > >> somehow, > > > >>>> even > > > >>>>> if we aren't using the organ to perceive externally while > retrieval > > > >> of > > > >>>> the > > > >>>>> memory? I'm not sure I explained that very well? > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Kind regards, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Annalisa > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> -- > > > >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > >>>> Assistant Professor > > > >>>> Department of Anthropology > > > >>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > >>>> Brigham Young University > > > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > >> Assistant Professor > > > >> Department of Anthropology > > > >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > >> Brigham Young University > > > >> Provo, UT 84602 > > > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > > > object > > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jan 23 19:44:15 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 19:44:15 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Notes on Blindness In-Reply-To: References: <1421950142186.25490@unm.edu> <1421964016656.90429@unm.edu> <3C6C6AE4-17AC-47DF-938C-8569A115F6AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am in synch with that interpretation, Larry. In this regard, note that the key idea behind Luria's so-called "combined motor method" focused centrally on the *discoordination* of culturally mediated joint activity. mike On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 4:39 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Mike, > This term "infusion" seems to suggest "permeable" type flowing intonation > into words. Luria's voice should definitely be added to explore this realm. > > Adding Zinchenko's voice to this chorus, in the book chapter "Thought and > Word The Approaches of L. S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet" Zinchenko wrote" > Andrew Bely saw movement and rhythm behind thought. Mikhail Bakhtin saw > emotion and will behind thought, and he saw intonation IN thought, "the > truly acting mind is a mind of emotions and volition, a mind of intonation, > and this intonation essentially PENETRATES all the significant moments of > thinking" [Bahktin]. He also saw behind thought another person - an > interlocutor, or participant in a dialogue, "Human thought becomes a true > thought, an idea, only under conditions of live contact with someone else's > thought embodied in someone else's voice, which is someone else's mind > expressed in words .... The idea is a LIVING EVENT, occurring in a point of > dramatic meeting of two or more minds. In this regard, the idea is similar > to word, with which it is dialectically united" [Bahktin]. Vygotsky > expressed a similar idea about thought as a unity of communication and > generalization. [page 214] > > So the term "boundary" may be an inaccurate metaphor for exploring this > realm implying two separated places or poles [the verbal and the > nonverbal]. > The realm we are exploring is trying to convey that ALL living events > including verbal events are "infused" with rhythm and intonation. > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 3:50 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Henry,Larry et al -- ?I understand the use of the term "at the boundary > of > > the verbal and the nonverbal." I for sure agree that ?intonation is > > essential to language. The word boundary, I believe, may undercut the > > equally important idea that intonation *infuses* language. *It* is not on > > the border. I love watching signers, knowing no sign, because of the > > intonation and dancing movements that accompany the oral speech. > > > > It is significant that Tanya Akhutina is using these ideas because she is > > one of the leading > > practitioners of Luria's ideas. In *Man With a Shattered World* and > > elsewhere, Luria talks of "kinetic melodies" and uses such melodies as > part > > of this program of remediation of Zasetski's shattered brain. Oliver > Sachs > > has just written a book on music I have not seen yet. It must have a good > > deal to say here. > > mike > > > > mike > > > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > > > Henry, > > > This quote, especially the aspect: > > > > > > Intonation is always at the boundary of the verbal and the nonverbal, > > the > > > spoken and the unspoken. Intonation is oriented in two directions: > toward > > > the listener... and toward the object of the utterance as if to a third > > > living participant. > > > > > > This brings in the cornerstone of the 'object" AS IF a third living > > > participant. Intonation, attunement, and resonance exploring the > rhythm > > AT > > > the boundary or the margin of this triangulated "space" of where > > > possibility exists. This extralinguistic context with its felt > structure > > > which is not yet articulated. > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:57 PM, HENRY SHONERD > > wrote: > > > > > > > Mike and all, > > > > I found this quote from Voloshinov (1926) in T.V. AKHUTINA > > > > The Theory of Verbal Communication in the Works of M.M. Bakhtin and > > L.S. > > > > Vygotsky (2003, p. 102): > > > > "Intonation establishes the close connection between the word and the > > > > extralinguistic context. Living intonation is virtually able to > release > > > the > > > > word from its verbal limits. . . . Intonation is always at the > boundary > > > of > > > > the verbal and the nonverbal, the spoken and the unspoken. Intonation > > is > > > > oriented in two directions: toward the listener... and toward the > > object > > > of > > > > the utterance as if to a third living participant." > > > > > > > > I wonder what Bakhtin had to say about non-verbal gesture which > > > > accompanies speech, which could not be seen by a blind person. Does > one > > > > sense become heightened when another is compromised? Does language > > > provide > > > > redundancy to help the listener? > > > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 23, 2015, at 2:02 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > > > > All seems relevant to the imagination thread to me! > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 12:36 PM, Greg Thompson < > > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Larry, > > > > >> (if you'll allow me this reduction of your post) > > > > >> > > > > >> Brilliant expansion! > > > > >> > > > > >> -greg > > > > >> > > > > >> On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 12:47 AM, Larry Purss < > lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> Greg, > > > > >>> Memory as requiring the process of reduction of the manifold of > > > > >> experience > > > > >>> does seem to an interesting question which may offer a > possibility > > > for > > > > >>> further expansion. I mean this metaphorically as a reciprocal > > "dance" > > > > of > > > > >>> reduction and expansion. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> The "reciprocal" awareness that possibly not only memories but > also > > > our > > > > >>> theories and our conceptions may be relying too much on the > > processes > > > > of > > > > >>> memory [after the fact] and therefore loosing sight of the > > > > multi-modality > > > > >>> of experience as it unfolds. > > > > >>> Greg as you point "out" - to be seen is to be made (cf. Bakhtin's > > > > notion > > > > >>> of "consummation"). > > > > >>> Your insight where you say that filling the whole of the audible > > > > >>> environment is an experience of beauty, which has something to do > > > with > > > > >> the > > > > >>> complexity of the image in motion, alive, moving, unfixed, with > > > > shades > > > > >>> and textures constantly > > > > >>> changing. > > > > >>> Instead of being isolated, cut off, preoccupied, internally, you > > are > > > > >>> presented with a world. You are related to a world. You are > > addressed > > > > by > > > > >> a > > > > >>> world. > > > > >>> Robert Nichols in exploring the meaning of freedom and > recognition > > > > says, > > > > >>> "To stand in a 'free' relation to the world, to oneself and one's > > > > ethical > > > > >>> commitments, is to know that one's standpoint does not exhaust > the > > > > total > > > > >>> range of meaningful, viable, and worthwhile possibilities." For > > > Robert > > > > >>> beauty as 'being-in-the-world' depends on the "extent" to which > we > > > > >> actually > > > > >>> "embody" the world through receptivity, fragility, indeterminacy, > > and > > > > >>> interconnectivity. [similar sentiments to the notion of > "surrender" > > > or > > > > >>> "acceptance" as an ethical commitment] > > > > >>> Robert Nichols perceives an ethical commitment that emerges > within > > an > > > > >>> awareness of how one cares for the world and how one has an > > > > "attachment" > > > > >> to > > > > >>> existence. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Greg, is it possible that memory, and theory "about" how one > > > re-members > > > > >> and > > > > >>> re-cognizes and re-presents and re-duces and then articulates the > > > world > > > > >> as > > > > >>> the "truth" contributes to being isolated, cut off, preoccupied. > > > The > > > > >>> world foreclosed. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Requiring that "we" once again turn [or re-turn] to being within > > the > > > > >> world > > > > >>> as situated presence. The musical resonance of "attunement" > within > > > the > > > > >>> world prior to re-collecting and re-ducing the world through > memory > > > > which > > > > >>> highlights the salient features. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Greg Thompson < > > > > >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>>> Annalisa, > > > > >>>> Yes, you said it very well, much better than I did in my prior > > post > > > > >> which > > > > >>>> was a bit intellectually garbled (and I missed the article that > > went > > > > >>> along > > > > >>>> with it, so thanks for pointing that out!). > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> But I do think that there is an interesting point to be made > about > > > the > > > > >>>> importance of the reduction of the manifold of experience that > is > > > > >>> essential > > > > >>>> to memory. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> I once assembled a paper that argued that forgetting should be > > seen > > > as > > > > >> a > > > > >>>> tool of ethnography since when one reduces one's experience to > > what > > > is > > > > >>>> remembered, one has gotten to something that was somehow > > important. > > > > >>>> Reviewers thought it was just an excuse for doing lazy > > ethnographic > > > > >>>> research. Perhaps it was... > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> What ever happened to that paper? > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> I can't remember... > > > > >>>> -greg > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Annalisa Aguilar < > > annalisa@unm.edu > > > > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>>> Greg! > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Yes the piece is really great and well produced! > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> If you read the article that accompanies the video on the Times > > > page, > > > > >>> the > > > > >>>>> writers indicate that over time as he adjusted to blindness, he > > > came > > > > >> to > > > > >>>>> revel in the other senses to the point that when he was helping > > > with > > > > >>> the > > > > >>>>> movie, he'd forgotten that he'd gone through that painful time, > > and > > > > >>>>> apparently wasn't happy to revisit the memories. I think that > is > > > the > > > > >>>> point > > > > >>>>> of the last scene with the rain (inside), to show that he began > > to > > > > >>> "see" > > > > >>>>> differently, with sound. Maybe? At least, that is how I > > interpreted > > > > >> it. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> I also thought, as you, it was remarkable that he remembered > > > > >>> photographs, > > > > >>>>> maybe these map in memory differently? Like you say because of > > > > >>> reduction > > > > >>>> of > > > > >>>>> modality? > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> What also seems significant is that if we don't use those > organs > > of > > > > >>>>> perceptions we lose memories of those perceptions. Which may > mean > > > > >> that > > > > >>>>> memory is something that must be reconstructed with the organ > > > > >> somehow, > > > > >>>> even > > > > >>>>> if we aren't using the organ to perceive externally while > > retrieval > > > > >> of > > > > >>>> the > > > > >>>>> memory? I'm not sure I explained that very well? > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Kind regards, > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Annalisa > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> -- > > > > >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > >>>> Assistant Professor > > > > >>>> Department of Anthropology > > > > >>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > >>>> Brigham Young University > > > > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > > > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> -- > > > > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > >> Assistant Professor > > > > >> Department of Anthropology > > > > >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > >> Brigham Young University > > > > >> Provo, UT 84602 > > > > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as > an > > > > object > > > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Jan 23 20:34:48 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 21:34:48 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Notes on Blindness In-Reply-To: References: <1421950142186.25490@unm.edu> <1421964016656.90429@unm.edu> <3C6C6AE4-17AC-47DF-938C-8569A115F6AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <12B5CA17-E6DF-48C5-978A-2CD363D28D54@gmail.com> Larry, Mike, Annalisa and all, I was thinking about signers when I posted my email, thinking that intonation is a form of gesture. I like the Vygotsky idea from Larry on thought as a unity of communication and generalization and wonder if it is relevant to Hutto on basic and scaffolded cognition. This email will go out later this evening (New Mexico time), since I don?t know the password where I am. I am about to take part in a weekly chanting at our synagogue. I am not Jewish (my wife is), and I don?t really understand much of the Hebrew as I chant it, but the sharing of the sounds, the music, the rhythm is certainly meaningful for me. Chanting, of course, is in unison, unlike prototypical dialog, where turns are taken. I am thinking back now to Annalisa?s post two days ago (ancient!) with a link to the church of St. John Coltrane. Jazz blends unison and turn taking. IN FACT, dialog is often marked by overlapping turns, which can indicate either contestation or agreement. Cultural differences in turn taking are interesting. Henry > On Jan 23, 2015, at 5:39 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > Mike, > This term "infusion" seems to suggest "permeable" type flowing intonation > into words. Luria's voice should definitely be added to explore this realm. > > Adding Zinchenko's voice to this chorus, in the book chapter "Thought and > Word The Approaches of L. S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet" Zinchenko wrote" > Andrew Bely saw movement and rhythm behind thought. Mikhail Bakhtin saw > emotion and will behind thought, and he saw intonation IN thought, "the > truly acting mind is a mind of emotions and volition, a mind of intonation, > and this intonation essentially PENETRATES all the significant moments of > thinking" [Bahktin]. He also saw behind thought another person - an > interlocutor, or participant in a dialogue, "Human thought becomes a true > thought, an idea, only under conditions of live contact with someone else's > thought embodied in someone else's voice, which is someone else's mind > expressed in words .... The idea is a LIVING EVENT, occurring in a point of > dramatic meeting of two or more minds. In this regard, the idea is similar > to word, with which it is dialectically united" [Bahktin]. Vygotsky > expressed a similar idea about thought as a unity of communication and > generalization. [page 214] > > So the term "boundary" may be an inaccurate metaphor for exploring this > realm implying two separated places or poles [the verbal and the nonverbal]. > The realm we are exploring is trying to convey that ALL living events > including verbal events are "infused" with rhythm and intonation. > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 3:50 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Henry,Larry et al -- ?I understand the use of the term "at the boundary of >> the verbal and the nonverbal." I for sure agree that ?intonation is >> essential to language. The word boundary, I believe, may undercut the >> equally important idea that intonation *infuses* language. *It* is not on >> the border. I love watching signers, knowing no sign, because of the >> intonation and dancing movements that accompany the oral speech. >> >> It is significant that Tanya Akhutina is using these ideas because she is >> one of the leading >> practitioners of Luria's ideas. In *Man With a Shattered World* and >> elsewhere, Luria talks of "kinetic melodies" and uses such melodies as part >> of this program of remediation of Zasetski's shattered brain. Oliver Sachs >> has just written a book on music I have not seen yet. It must have a good >> deal to say here. >> mike >> >> mike >> >> On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >> >>> Henry, >>> This quote, especially the aspect: >>> >>> Intonation is always at the boundary of the verbal and the nonverbal, >> the >>> spoken and the unspoken. Intonation is oriented in two directions: toward >>> the listener... and toward the object of the utterance as if to a third >>> living participant. >>> >>> This brings in the cornerstone of the 'object" AS IF a third living >>> participant. Intonation, attunement, and resonance exploring the rhythm >> AT >>> the boundary or the margin of this triangulated "space" of where >>> possibility exists. This extralinguistic context with its felt structure >>> which is not yet articulated. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:57 PM, HENRY SHONERD >> wrote: >>> >>>> Mike and all, >>>> I found this quote from Voloshinov (1926) in T.V. AKHUTINA >>>> The Theory of Verbal Communication in the Works of M.M. Bakhtin and >> L.S. >>>> Vygotsky (2003, p. 102): >>>> "Intonation establishes the close connection between the word and the >>>> extralinguistic context. Living intonation is virtually able to release >>> the >>>> word from its verbal limits. . . . Intonation is always at the boundary >>> of >>>> the verbal and the nonverbal, the spoken and the unspoken. Intonation >> is >>>> oriented in two directions: toward the listener... and toward the >> object >>> of >>>> the utterance as if to a third living participant." >>>> >>>> I wonder what Bakhtin had to say about non-verbal gesture which >>>> accompanies speech, which could not be seen by a blind person. Does one >>>> sense become heightened when another is compromised? Does language >>> provide >>>> redundancy to help the listener? >>>> >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jan 23, 2015, at 2:02 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>> All seems relevant to the imagination thread to me! >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 12:36 PM, Greg Thompson < >>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Larry, >>>>>> (if you'll allow me this reduction of your post) >>>>>> >>>>>> Brilliant expansion! >>>>>> >>>>>> -greg >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 12:47 AM, Larry Purss >> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Greg, >>>>>>> Memory as requiring the process of reduction of the manifold of >>>>>> experience >>>>>>> does seem to an interesting question which may offer a possibility >>> for >>>>>>> further expansion. I mean this metaphorically as a reciprocal >> "dance" >>>> of >>>>>>> reduction and expansion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The "reciprocal" awareness that possibly not only memories but also >>> our >>>>>>> theories and our conceptions may be relying too much on the >> processes >>>> of >>>>>>> memory [after the fact] and therefore loosing sight of the >>>> multi-modality >>>>>>> of experience as it unfolds. >>>>>>> Greg as you point "out" - to be seen is to be made (cf. Bakhtin's >>>> notion >>>>>>> of "consummation"). >>>>>>> Your insight where you say that filling the whole of the audible >>>>>>> environment is an experience of beauty, which has something to do >>> with >>>>>> the >>>>>>> complexity of the image in motion, alive, moving, unfixed, with >>>> shades >>>>>>> and textures constantly >>>>>>> changing. >>>>>>> Instead of being isolated, cut off, preoccupied, internally, you >> are >>>>>>> presented with a world. You are related to a world. You are >> addressed >>>> by >>>>>> a >>>>>>> world. >>>>>>> Robert Nichols in exploring the meaning of freedom and recognition >>>> says, >>>>>>> "To stand in a 'free' relation to the world, to oneself and one's >>>> ethical >>>>>>> commitments, is to know that one's standpoint does not exhaust the >>>> total >>>>>>> range of meaningful, viable, and worthwhile possibilities." For >>> Robert >>>>>>> beauty as 'being-in-the-world' depends on the "extent" to which we >>>>>> actually >>>>>>> "embody" the world through receptivity, fragility, indeterminacy, >> and >>>>>>> interconnectivity. [similar sentiments to the notion of "surrender" >>> or >>>>>>> "acceptance" as an ethical commitment] >>>>>>> Robert Nichols perceives an ethical commitment that emerges within >> an >>>>>>> awareness of how one cares for the world and how one has an >>>> "attachment" >>>>>> to >>>>>>> existence. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Greg, is it possible that memory, and theory "about" how one >>> re-members >>>>>> and >>>>>>> re-cognizes and re-presents and re-duces and then articulates the >>> world >>>>>> as >>>>>>> the "truth" contributes to being isolated, cut off, preoccupied. >>> The >>>>>>> world foreclosed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Requiring that "we" once again turn [or re-turn] to being within >> the >>>>>> world >>>>>>> as situated presence. The musical resonance of "attunement" within >>> the >>>>>>> world prior to re-collecting and re-ducing the world through memory >>>> which >>>>>>> highlights the salient features. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Greg Thompson < >>>>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Annalisa, >>>>>>>> Yes, you said it very well, much better than I did in my prior >> post >>>>>> which >>>>>>>> was a bit intellectually garbled (and I missed the article that >> went >>>>>>> along >>>>>>>> with it, so thanks for pointing that out!). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But I do think that there is an interesting point to be made about >>> the >>>>>>>> importance of the reduction of the manifold of experience that is >>>>>>> essential >>>>>>>> to memory. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I once assembled a paper that argued that forgetting should be >> seen >>> as >>>>>> a >>>>>>>> tool of ethnography since when one reduces one's experience to >> what >>> is >>>>>>>> remembered, one has gotten to something that was somehow >> important. >>>>>>>> Reviewers thought it was just an excuse for doing lazy >> ethnographic >>>>>>>> research. Perhaps it was... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What ever happened to that paper? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I can't remember... >>>>>>>> -greg >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Annalisa Aguilar < >> annalisa@unm.edu >>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Greg! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes the piece is really great and well produced! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you read the article that accompanies the video on the Times >>> page, >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> writers indicate that over time as he adjusted to blindness, he >>> came >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> revel in the other senses to the point that when he was helping >>> with >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> movie, he'd forgotten that he'd gone through that painful time, >> and >>>>>>>>> apparently wasn't happy to revisit the memories. I think that is >>> the >>>>>>>> point >>>>>>>>> of the last scene with the rain (inside), to show that he began >> to >>>>>>> "see" >>>>>>>>> differently, with sound. Maybe? At least, that is how I >> interpreted >>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I also thought, as you, it was remarkable that he remembered >>>>>>> photographs, >>>>>>>>> maybe these map in memory differently? Like you say because of >>>>>>> reduction >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> modality? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What also seems significant is that if we don't use those organs >> of >>>>>>>>> perceptions we lose memories of those perceptions. Which may mean >>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> memory is something that must be reconstructed with the organ >>>>>> somehow, >>>>>>>> even >>>>>>>>> if we aren't using the organ to perceive externally while >> retrieval >>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> memory? I'm not sure I explained that very well? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>>> object >>>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jan 23 21:05:23 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 05:05:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Iriki - Using tools: The moment when mind, language, and humanity emerged Message-ID: <1422075923749.79922@unm.edu> ?Hi all, Something here to add to the fire to keep us warm in January! :) I wonder: If tools shape our mind (as this Iriki article suggests), then does this confound tools as being solely influential upon our environment? Or does it mean that tools are bi-directional? If so, does that then suggest that signs are also bi-directional? (That is, if signs, as a kind of staging for language, are inward shaping but also environmentally influencing, like tools?) And this would mean that propaganda would be likened to a tool, but also a sign. Does this mean that we are able abandon the tool and the sign as a dichotomous enterprise (one pointing "inward" the other "outward") and see it as a continuum dependent upon and determined by many different factors and circumstances? And taking this a teeny step further, to stimulate further discussion (of course), might education also be a tool _and_ a sign? So that's for the bonfire! Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Iriki_Using tools_2009.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 648856 bytes Desc: Iriki_Using tools_2009.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150124/c6d9cba1/attachment-0001.pdf From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jan 23 21:39:39 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 05:39:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Notes on Blindness In-Reply-To: <12B5CA17-E6DF-48C5-978A-2CD363D28D54@gmail.com> References: <1421950142186.25490@unm.edu> <1421964016656.90429@unm.edu> <3C6C6AE4-17AC-47DF-938C-8569A115F6AA@gmail.com> , <12B5CA17-E6DF-48C5-978A-2CD363D28D54@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1422077979752.43513@unm.edu> Hi all, With regard to the discussion on intonation, I know you mean intonation in speech, and how the tonality of the voice will expand beyond the word boundary; and you discussed "tonality" in signing. But I also considered intonation in the scene of the video in which the sounds of the rain filled the space and provided a sense of "object boundaries" to the blind experience of John Hull. For what it is worth, if it is worthy, noteworthy that is! :) Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jan 24 08:39:19 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 08:39:19 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] Message-ID: Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that Shpet and Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet disagreed. Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the Approaches of L. S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain [which I associated with the other thread on rain] "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there is a long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is hard to overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with Aleksandr Potebnya. Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the various possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their preference to the word, although they understood it differently. Let us start from Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in thought is successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a thought with a cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition from thought to language is a very complicated process of *dismemberment* of a thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, Vygotsky wrote, 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the motivation of thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If something can *pour itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can understand the given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is *expressed *in a word" [emphasis in the original] This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation *behind the movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and language as oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place the approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present them as mutually complimentary approaches. I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of oscillating movement of thought and language situated within words. Polyphonic notions From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sat Jan 24 09:26:18 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 17:26:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as Larry points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a little background: Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Freiberger-Sheikholeslami 1985 Gustav G. Shpet He.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 155525 bytes Desc: Freiberger-Sheikholeslami 1985 Gustav G. Shpet He.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150124/c5f63116/attachment.pdf -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: ATT00001.txt Url: https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150124/c5f63116/attachment.txt From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 24 11:20:38 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 19:20:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Notes on The Church of St. John Coltrane In-Reply-To: <12B5CA17-E6DF-48C5-978A-2CD363D28D54@gmail.com> References: <1421950142186.25490@unm.edu> <1421964016656.90429@unm.edu> <3C6C6AE4-17AC-47DF-938C-8569A115F6AA@gmail.com> , <12B5CA17-E6DF-48C5-978A-2CD363D28D54@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1422127239640.79254@unm.edu> Hi one and all xmcars! I hope your Saturday is being productively non-productive, as Saturdays are usually intended to be! I was pleasantly provoked to consider Henry's noticing of turn taking with Jazz, and considered how in the Church of St. John Coltrane, there is a fascinating blend of turn taking and overlapping of concepts that really fascinates my post-modern sensibility, if that is the organ in which I am fascinatingly sensing it. Here we have the notion of saintliness, being overlapped with John Coltrane, a (great) jazz musician and former heroin addict now long deceased (a requirement for sainthood), whose name is John as in St. John, one of the more original disciples in terms of gospel-writing goes, in terms of origination, that is. If we want to see how saints are produced, I think this is how it goes. We are watching this in the flesh. And notice how the painting of St. John Coltrane has the semblance of a Byzantine icon, with a golden sky, for it is the African _Orthodox_ Church. Which means we must ask what is orthodox about this? Then we have the notion of a Bishop, Franzo King (Who I note, is now an Archbishop see: http://www.coltranechurch.org/#!about/csgz) as the founder of the Church, and how the joy of the Christian gospel is transformed in(to) music, with the Franzo King being as a kind of priest saying a mass by reciting the notes of John Coltrane with his own saxophone in John Coltrane's language, playing the exact notes as John Coltrane played them on the album "A Love Supreme" (apparently). (By the way, Christianity is something of an overlapping upon Judiasim, but evidently in the early days, it was required to be Jewish first before one could become Christian, but then Paul got rid of that overlap.) I know this may be uncomfortable to talk about religion, but I'm going somewhere with this, and that is: there always seems to be someone who comes along and takes a good idea and makes it into a bad one - and I allow you to interpret that as you find it, for you are all wonderful interpreters, yet another incarnation of overlapping. What I find intriguing is that the Church of St. John Coltrane provides a newness to what was a good idea turned bad, presumably to be turned into a better idea, in the way it takes itself seriously, despite humble beginnings. There is something kitsch about it, and yet you can tell there is authentic joy in the participants. I don't believe there is anything kitsch about joy, as joy cannot be faked. It is there or it isn't. It doesn't appear that this joy is a product of intoxicants, but that instead their joy is intoxicating, or at the least it is a little contagious! What is it that music does for us? it is an instrument of joy, for joy's sake. Music is a good idea. My post is not intended to be a commercial spot for the Church of St. John Coltrane, or even spreading the "good word." Instead, if you can imagine it, my appeal is to consider how these folks have created a community that is centered around cultivating care and joy among one another and somehow _it works_. Certainly they don't have a monopoly upon such activities. Methinks that that is the point. In the world of us, what is it that produces our joy? How do we make our music? So please, take your turn! :) Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ On Friday, January 23, 2015 9:34 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: Larry, Mike, Annalisa and all, I was thinking about signers when I posted my email, thinking that intonation is a form of gesture. I like the Vygotsky idea from Larry on thought as a unity of communication and generalization and wonder if it is relevant to Hutto on basic and scaffolded cognition. This email will go out later this evening (New Mexico time), since I don?t know the password where I am. I am about to take part in a weekly chanting at our synagogue. I am not Jewish (my wife is), and I don?t really understand much of the Hebrew as I chant it, but the sharing of the sounds, the music, the rhythm is certainly meaningful for me. Chanting, of course, is in unison, unlike prototypical dialog, where turns are taken. I am thinking back now to Annalisa?s post two days ago (ancient!) with a link to the church of St. John Coltrane. Jazz blends unison and turn taking. IN FACT, dialog is often marked by overlapping turns, which can indicate either contestation or agreement. Cultural differences in turn taking are interesting. Henry From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Jan 24 11:37:52 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 12:37:52 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Martin, Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings and dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and his context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the eyes of hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes article was written? Henry > On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as Larry points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a little background: > > Martin > > > On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > >> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. >> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that Shpet and >> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". >> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet disagreed. >> >> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph >> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the Approaches of L. >> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain [which I >> associated with the other thread on rain] >> >> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there is a >> long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is hard to >> overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with Aleksandr Potebnya. >> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the various >> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their preference to the >> word, although they understood it differently. Let us start from >> Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in thought is >> successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a thought with a >> cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition from >> thought to language is a very complicated process of *dismemberment* of a >> thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, Vygotsky wrote, >> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the motivation of >> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If something can *pour >> itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can understand the >> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is *expressed *in a >> word" [emphasis in the original] >> >> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation *behind the >> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and language as >> oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place the >> approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present them as >> mutually complimentary approaches. >> >> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of >> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within words. >> Polyphonic notions > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sat Jan 24 12:49:55 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 20:49:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is the information I have, Henry. Freiberger-Sheikholeslami, E. (1984). Gustav G. Shpet: Hermeneutical logic and philosophical semiotics. In J. Deely (Ed.), Semiotics 1984 (pp. 381-391). Bloomington: Semiotic Society of America. Martin On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Martin, > Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings and dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and his context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the eyes of hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes article was written? > Henry > >> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: >> >> I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as Larry points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a little background: >> >> Martin >> >> >> On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >> >>> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. >>> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that Shpet and >>> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". >>> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet disagreed. >>> >>> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph >>> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the Approaches of L. >>> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain [which I >>> associated with the other thread on rain] >>> >>> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there is a >>> long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is hard to >>> overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with Aleksandr Potebnya. >>> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the various >>> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their preference to the >>> word, although they understood it differently. Let us start from >>> Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in thought is >>> successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a thought with a >>> cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition from >>> thought to language is a very complicated process of *dismemberment* of a >>> thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, Vygotsky wrote, >>> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the motivation of >>> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If something can *pour >>> itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can understand the >>> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is *expressed *in a >>> word" [emphasis in the original] >>> >>> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation *behind the >>> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and language as >>> oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place the >>> approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present them as >>> mutually complimentary approaches. >>> >>> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of >>> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within words. >>> Polyphonic notions >> > > From ewall@umich.edu Sat Jan 24 13:58:34 2015 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 15:58:34 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> You possibly might also be interested in The Role of Hermeneutic Phenomenology in Grounding the Affirmative Philosophy of Gustav Gustavovich Shpet V. G. Kuznetsov Russian Studies in Philosophy 37 (4):62-90 (1999) Ed On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:49 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > This is the information I have, Henry. > > Freiberger-Sheikholeslami, E. (1984). Gustav G. Shpet: Hermeneutical logic and philosophical semiotics. In J. Deely (Ed.), Semiotics 1984 (pp. 381-391). Bloomington: Semiotic Society of America. > > > Martin > > On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Martin, >> Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings and dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and his context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the eyes of hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes article was written? >> Henry >> >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: >>> >>> I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as Larry points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a little background: >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>>> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. >>>> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that Shpet and >>>> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". >>>> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet disagreed. >>>> >>>> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph >>>> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the Approaches of L. >>>> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain [which I >>>> associated with the other thread on rain] >>>> >>>> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there is a >>>> long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is hard to >>>> overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with Aleksandr Potebnya. >>>> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the various >>>> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their preference to the >>>> word, although they understood it differently. Let us start from >>>> Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in thought is >>>> successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a thought with a >>>> cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition from >>>> thought to language is a very complicated process of *dismemberment* of a >>>> thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, Vygotsky wrote, >>>> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the motivation of >>>> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If something can *pour >>>> itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can understand the >>>> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is *expressed *in a >>>> word" [emphasis in the original] >>>> >>>> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation *behind the >>>> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and language as >>>> oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place the >>>> approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present them as >>>> mutually complimentary approaches. >>>> >>>> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of >>>> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within words. >>>> Polyphonic notions >>> >> >> > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sat Jan 24 14:21:17 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 22:21:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> Message-ID: <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> Got it! :) On Jan 24, 2015, at 4:58 PM, Ed Wall wrote: > You possibly might also be interested in > > The Role of Hermeneutic Phenomenology in Grounding the Affirmative Philosophy of Gustav Gustavovich Shpet > V. G. Kuznetsov > Russian Studies in Philosophy 37 (4):62-90 (1999) > > Ed > > On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:49 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > >> This is the information I have, Henry. >> >> Freiberger-Sheikholeslami, E. (1984). Gustav G. Shpet: Hermeneutical logic and philosophical semiotics. In J. Deely (Ed.), Semiotics 1984 (pp. 381-391). Bloomington: Semiotic Society of America. >> >> >> Martin >> >> On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> >>> Martin, >>> Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings and dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and his context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the eyes of hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes article was written? >>> Henry >>> >>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: >>>> >>>> I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as Larry points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a little background: >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >>>> >>>>> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. >>>>> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that Shpet and >>>>> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". >>>>> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet disagreed. >>>>> >>>>> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph >>>>> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the Approaches of L. >>>>> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain [which I >>>>> associated with the other thread on rain] >>>>> >>>>> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there is a >>>>> long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is hard to >>>>> overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with Aleksandr Potebnya. >>>>> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the various >>>>> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their preference to the >>>>> word, although they understood it differently. Let us start from >>>>> Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in thought is >>>>> successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a thought with a >>>>> cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition from >>>>> thought to language is a very complicated process of *dismemberment* of a >>>>> thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, Vygotsky wrote, >>>>> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the motivation of >>>>> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If something can *pour >>>>> itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can understand the >>>>> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is *expressed *in a >>>>> word" [emphasis in the original] >>>>> >>>>> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation *behind the >>>>> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and language as >>>>> oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place the >>>>> approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present them as >>>>> mutually complimentary approaches. >>>>> >>>>> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of >>>>> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within words. >>>>> Polyphonic notions >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Jan 24 14:30:01 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 15:30:01 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] The Importance of Forgetting: Jorge Luis Borges (Funes el memorioso) and Luria (The Mind of a Mnemonist) Message-ID: Speaking of the importance of forgetting in ethnographic field work (an important lesson for all budding ethnographers), a colleague just pointed me to an essay by Jorge Luis Borges titled Funes the Memorious (sp: *Funes el memorioso*). In this story, a young man Ireneo Funes suffers a fall off a horse and as a result is able to have perfect memory of everything he sees. As a result, Funes is unable to engage in generalizing. His world is merely full of detail after detail after detail. He even finds it difficult to sleep at night because he is busy remembering what he has remembered. I thought this was a fascinating account and looking it up, I saw that there is a chance that this story was inspired by an account by A. Luria of Solomon Shereshevskii in Luria's book The Mind of a Mnemonist (that this was an influence of Borges is suggested by T. Verberne (and btw, I'm getting all of this off of Wikipedia in case you're wondering). Anyway, I thought this was an interesting connection to the importance of forgetting, and one of which I was not aware (but will likely soon forget...). Cheers, greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sat Jan 24 14:40:34 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 22:40:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: There is a growing literature on Shpet, but very little of his own work is available in English. His book 'Appearance & Sense' is translated (and I have a copy in case anyone is interested), but this was early work, introducing Husserl to Russian readers (and early Husserl at that: Shpet studied with Husserl in 1912-13). Shpet's more explicitly hermeneutic work, in particular his writing on the inner form of the word, has not been translated, to my knowledge. Yet the connection with, and presumably the influence on, LSV is evident. Around 1916 Vygotsky attended Shpet?s seminar on "internal form of the word" at Shanyavsky University, and the two were both teaching at the Pedology Department of Moscow University in the late 1920s. In the early 1920s Shpet organized the 'ethnic psychology' section at Moscow University. Hence my interest in his work, and my suggestion that getting more translated would be very interesting. Martin On Jan 24, 2015, at 5:21 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Got it! :) > > On Jan 24, 2015, at 4:58 PM, Ed Wall wrote: > >> You possibly might also be interested in >> >> The Role of Hermeneutic Phenomenology in Grounding the Affirmative Philosophy of Gustav Gustavovich Shpet >> V. G. Kuznetsov >> Russian Studies in Philosophy 37 (4):62-90 (1999) >> >> Ed >> >> On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:49 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: >> >>> This is the information I have, Henry. >>> >>> Freiberger-Sheikholeslami, E. (1984). Gustav G. Shpet: Hermeneutical logic and philosophical semiotics. In J. Deely (Ed.), Semiotics 1984 (pp. 381-391). Bloomington: Semiotic Society of America. >>> >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>> >>>> Martin, >>>> Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings and dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and his context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the eyes of hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes article was written? >>>> Henry >>>> >>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as Larry points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a little background: >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. >>>>>> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that Shpet and >>>>>> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". >>>>>> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet disagreed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph >>>>>> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the Approaches of L. >>>>>> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain [which I >>>>>> associated with the other thread on rain] >>>>>> >>>>>> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there is a >>>>>> long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is hard to >>>>>> overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with Aleksandr Potebnya. >>>>>> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the various >>>>>> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their preference to the >>>>>> word, although they understood it differently. Let us start from >>>>>> Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in thought is >>>>>> successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a thought with a >>>>>> cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition from >>>>>> thought to language is a very complicated process of *dismemberment* of a >>>>>> thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, Vygotsky wrote, >>>>>> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the motivation of >>>>>> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If something can *pour >>>>>> itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can understand the >>>>>> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is *expressed *in a >>>>>> word" [emphasis in the original] >>>>>> >>>>>> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation *behind the >>>>>> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and language as >>>>>> oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place the >>>>>> approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present them as >>>>>> mutually complimentary approaches. >>>>>> >>>>>> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of >>>>>> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within words. >>>>>> Polyphonic notions >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jan 24 15:03:03 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 15:03:03 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: So a specific text from Shpet on ethnic psychology would be of special interest, Martin. Where might such a thing be hiding? mike On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > There is a growing literature on Shpet, but very little of his own work is > available in English. His book 'Appearance & Sense' is translated (and I > have a copy in case anyone is interested), but this was early work, > introducing Husserl to Russian readers (and early Husserl at that: Shpet > studied with Husserl in 1912-13). Shpet's more explicitly hermeneutic work, > in particular his writing on the inner form of the word, has not been > translated, to my knowledge. Yet the connection with, and presumably the > influence on, LSV is evident. Around 1916 Vygotsky attended Shpet?s seminar > on "internal form of the word" at Shanyavsky University, and the two were > both teaching at the Pedology Department of Moscow University in the late > 1920s. In the early 1920s Shpet organized the 'ethnic psychology' section > at Moscow University. Hence my interest in his work, and my suggestion > that getting more translated would be very interesting. > > Martin > > On Jan 24, 2015, at 5:21 PM, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > > Got it! :) > > > > On Jan 24, 2015, at 4:58 PM, Ed Wall wrote: > > > >> You possibly might also be interested in > >> > >> The Role of Hermeneutic Phenomenology in Grounding the Affirmative > Philosophy of Gustav Gustavovich Shpet > >> V. G. Kuznetsov > >> Russian Studies in Philosophy 37 (4):62-90 (1999) > >> > >> Ed > >> > >> On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:49 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > >> > >>> This is the information I have, Henry. > >>> > >>> Freiberger-Sheikholeslami, E. (1984). Gustav G. Shpet: Hermeneutical > logic and philosophical semiotics. In J. Deely (Ed.), Semiotics 1984 (pp. > 381-391). Bloomington: Semiotic Society of America. > >>> > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >>> > >>>> Martin, > >>>> Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings and > dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and his > context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the eyes of > hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes article was > written? > >>>> Henry > >>>> > >>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as Larry > points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a little > background: > >>>>> > >>>>> Martin > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. > >>>>>> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that > Shpet and > >>>>>> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". > >>>>>> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet > disagreed. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph > >>>>>> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the > Approaches of L. > >>>>>> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain [which I > >>>>>> associated with the other thread on rain] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there is a > >>>>>> long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is hard to > >>>>>> overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with Aleksandr > Potebnya. > >>>>>> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the various > >>>>>> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their > preference to the > >>>>>> word, although they understood it differently. Let us start from > >>>>>> Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in > thought is > >>>>>> successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a thought > with a > >>>>>> cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition from > >>>>>> thought to language is a very complicated process of > *dismemberment* of a > >>>>>> thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, Vygotsky > wrote, > >>>>>> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the > motivation of > >>>>>> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If something > can *pour > >>>>>> itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can > understand the > >>>>>> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is > *expressed *in a > >>>>>> word" [emphasis in the original] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation > *behind the > >>>>>> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and > language as > >>>>>> oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place the > >>>>>> approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present them > as > >>>>>> mutually complimentary approaches. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of > >>>>>> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within words. > >>>>>> Polyphonic notions > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sat Jan 24 15:41:21 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 23:41:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: This seems likely, Mike: G. Spet, Vvedenie v etniceskuju psixologiju [Introduction ? la psychologie ethnique], in G.G. ?pet, Socinenija [Oeuvres], Moscou, 1989, p. 475-574. Martin On Jan 24, 2015, at 6:03 PM, mike cole wrote: > So a specific text from Shpet on ethnic psychology would be of special > interest, > Martin. > > Where might such a thing be hiding? > mike > > On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Martin John Packer > wrote: > >> There is a growing literature on Shpet, but very little of his own work is >> available in English. His book 'Appearance & Sense' is translated (and I >> have a copy in case anyone is interested), but this was early work, >> introducing Husserl to Russian readers (and early Husserl at that: Shpet >> studied with Husserl in 1912-13). Shpet's more explicitly hermeneutic work, >> in particular his writing on the inner form of the word, has not been >> translated, to my knowledge. Yet the connection with, and presumably the >> influence on, LSV is evident. Around 1916 Vygotsky attended Shpet?s seminar >> on "internal form of the word" at Shanyavsky University, and the two were >> both teaching at the Pedology Department of Moscow University in the late >> 1920s. In the early 1920s Shpet organized the 'ethnic psychology' section >> at Moscow University. Hence my interest in his work, and my suggestion >> that getting more translated would be very interesting. >> >> Martin >> >> On Jan 24, 2015, at 5:21 PM, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >> >>> Got it! :) >>> >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 4:58 PM, Ed Wall wrote: >>> >>>> You possibly might also be interested in >>>> >>>> The Role of Hermeneutic Phenomenology in Grounding the Affirmative >> Philosophy of Gustav Gustavovich Shpet >>>> V. G. Kuznetsov >>>> Russian Studies in Philosophy 37 (4):62-90 (1999) >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> >>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:49 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is the information I have, Henry. >>>>> >>>>> Freiberger-Sheikholeslami, E. (1984). Gustav G. Shpet: Hermeneutical >> logic and philosophical semiotics. In J. Deely (Ed.), Semiotics 1984 (pp. >> 381-391). Bloomington: Semiotic Society of America. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Martin, >>>>>> Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings and >> dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and his >> context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the eyes of >> hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes article was >> written? >>>>>> Henry >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer < >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as Larry >> points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a little >> background: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss >> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. >>>>>>>> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that >> Shpet and >>>>>>>> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". >>>>>>>> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet >> disagreed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph >>>>>>>> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the >> Approaches of L. >>>>>>>> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain [which I >>>>>>>> associated with the other thread on rain] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there is a >>>>>>>> long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is hard to >>>>>>>> overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with Aleksandr >> Potebnya. >>>>>>>> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the various >>>>>>>> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their >> preference to the >>>>>>>> word, although they understood it differently. Let us start from >>>>>>>> Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in >> thought is >>>>>>>> successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a thought >> with a >>>>>>>> cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition from >>>>>>>> thought to language is a very complicated process of >> *dismemberment* of a >>>>>>>> thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, Vygotsky >> wrote, >>>>>>>> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the >> motivation of >>>>>>>> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If something >> can *pour >>>>>>>> itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can >> understand the >>>>>>>> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is >> *expressed *in a >>>>>>>> word" [emphasis in the original] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation >> *behind the >>>>>>>> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and >> language as >>>>>>>> oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place the >>>>>>>> approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present them >> as >>>>>>>> mutually complimentary approaches. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of >>>>>>>> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within words. >>>>>>>> Polyphonic notions >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 24 19:19:34 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 03:19:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> , Message-ID: <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> Hi Martin, I would be interested in the "intro to Husserl" by Shpet, as I have long been curious how the Husserl got to LSV. Is it possible/doable to get some scans of chapter(s) from Appearance & Sense? you know, the ones you believe to be most juicy? You may at any time hermeneutically determine what is "most juicy." Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jan 24 23:59:55 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 23:59:55 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> Message-ID: I am attempting to grasp [understand] the notion of "the inner form of the word". I have been reading Vladimir Zinchenko in his chapter 9 "Thought and Word The Approaches of L. S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet. Zinchenko is trying to articulate what he describes as the very difficult point about the *second embodiment [of meaning] * of the first meaning which itself was embodied. Zladimir uses Mandel'shtam's poetic metaphor to set the stage for the point he is elaborating. "Yesterday has not been born yet" I will try to move through Zinchenko's elaboration of the two types of embodied meaning. He notes that meaning is not just a property of thinking. Meaning is not only a structural component of motor or perceptual activities directed at solving motor or perceptual problems. Meaning *penetrates *the structure of these activities and provides there unity. At the same time meaning is a force that directs the activity Solving a motor or thought problem *is realizing, embodying, or expressing *this meaning. If the problem is solved *it will be a second embodiment *of the meaning. Meanings second embodiment *is objectification, is signification *of the first meaning *in *perceptual, motor, operational, and verbal meanings, depending on the nature of the problem. In the second embodiment of meaning, *OR IMAGES* the initial meaning *reveals itself for the individual for the first time.* The thought about meaning emerges in the individual and he realizes what he wants, and what the reason for his frustration is. What he is looking for may turn *out* to be an image turn *out* to be an action turn *out* to be a thought. If it turns *out* to be a thought meaning will be expressed in a word. Only *after turning out* as this expression, *this objectification embodied as second meaning*, will meaning be*come* available for analysis, for communication. This turning *OUT* as expression, as objectification, as signification, as second embodiment of the first embodiment of meaning is a very difficult process to understand. The metaphor "Yesterday has not been born yet" attempts to express this difficult process poetically. I hope I have done justice to Zinchenko's beautiful articulation of first and second embodiments of meaning and the theme of the inner form of a word as meaning. [seepage 225 of the chapter] Larry On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Martin, > > I would be interested in the "intro to Husserl" by Shpet, as I have long > been curious how the Husserl got to LSV. > > Is it possible/doable to get some scans of chapter(s) from Appearance & > Sense? you know, the ones you believe to be most juicy? > > You may at any time hermeneutically determine what is "most juicy." > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Jan 25 07:51:43 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 08:51:43 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> Thank you, Martin! Henry > On Jan 24, 2015, at 1:49 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > This is the information I have, Henry. > > Freiberger-Sheikholeslami, E. (1984). Gustav G. Shpet: Hermeneutical logic and philosophical semiotics. In J. Deely (Ed.), Semiotics 1984 (pp. 381-391). Bloomington: Semiotic Society of America. > > > Martin > > On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Martin, >> Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings and dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and his context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the eyes of hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes article was written? >> Henry >> >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: >>> >>> I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as Larry points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a little background: >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>>> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. >>>> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that Shpet and >>>> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". >>>> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet disagreed. >>>> >>>> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph >>>> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the Approaches of L. >>>> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain [which I >>>> associated with the other thread on rain] >>>> >>>> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there is a >>>> long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is hard to >>>> overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with Aleksandr Potebnya. >>>> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the various >>>> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their preference to the >>>> word, although they understood it differently. Let us start from >>>> Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in thought is >>>> successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a thought with a >>>> cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition from >>>> thought to language is a very complicated process of *dismemberment* of a >>>> thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, Vygotsky wrote, >>>> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the motivation of >>>> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If something can *pour >>>> itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can understand the >>>> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is *expressed *in a >>>> word" [emphasis in the original] >>>> >>>> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation *behind the >>>> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and language as >>>> oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place the >>>> approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present them as >>>> mutually complimentary approaches. >>>> >>>> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of >>>> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within words. >>>> Polyphonic notions >>> >> >> > > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Sun Jan 25 08:27:04 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 11:27:04 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Hameroff and Penrose Message-ID: Good morning everyone, In my attempt to synthesize chomsky and vygotsky, my research is taking me into quantum mechanics and micro tubles as represented in the work of hameroff and penrose. ?Is anyone else on this list focusing on such a research?? Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info? From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jan 25 08:35:49 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 08:35:49 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> References: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have imaginally been walking with Zinchenko who is telling me about his chats with Schpet and Vygotsky. Zinchenko is engaged in rehabilitating the centrality of the meaning of "meaning" to processes of phenomenological historical understanding, and interpretation. His conversation is in the form of a rejoinder [or joining back] with Vygotsky and Schpet with who he wants to bring out their mutually shared thesis on the relation of thought and word. Zinchenko uses metaphors to poetically embody his attempt to have "meanings" more modest place with Vygotsky take on a more prominent and central quality. Zinchenko wrote: "A good image for the mutual relationships of meaning and sense is a Mobius strip. In the process of understanding or thinking, we encounter oppositely encountered *acts of making sense of meanings and sense giving meaningful signs to senses *[authors emphasis], which are transformed into each other. In Russian, 'meaning' ['znachenie'] and 'sign' ['znak'] have a common root and, hence, the untranslated italicized phrase sounds like a Russian pun. On the outer side of the strip may be meaning, which is transformed into sense as a result of the act of making sense, and this *becomes* the internal side of the *same* strip. Assigning a meaningful sign to sense makes an *analogous *transformation. Anyway, it was highly productive for Vygotsky to change the *focus* from *'meaning*' to sense. *Such a change *brings his views closer to those of Shpet. [page 228] I will pause here but want to point out how the metaphor of the Mobius strip has a similar quality to the hermeneutical movement of "fusions of horizons" Larry On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Thank you, Martin! > Henry > > > On Jan 24, 2015, at 1:49 PM, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > > > This is the information I have, Henry. > > > > Freiberger-Sheikholeslami, E. (1984). Gustav G. Shpet: Hermeneutical > logic and philosophical semiotics. In J. Deely (Ed.), Semiotics 1984 (pp. > 381-391). Bloomington: Semiotic Society of America. > > > > > > Martin > > > > On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > >> Martin, > >> Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings and > dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and his > context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the eyes of > hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes article was > written? > >> Henry > >> > >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > >>> > >>> I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as Larry > points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a little > background: > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> > >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss > wrote: > >>> > >>>> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. > >>>> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that Shpet > and > >>>> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". > >>>> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet > disagreed. > >>>> > >>>> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph > >>>> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the Approaches > of L. > >>>> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain [which I > >>>> associated with the other thread on rain] > >>>> > >>>> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there is a > >>>> long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is hard to > >>>> overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with Aleksandr > Potebnya. > >>>> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the various > >>>> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their preference > to the > >>>> word, although they understood it differently. Let us start from > >>>> Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in thought > is > >>>> successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a thought > with a > >>>> cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition from > >>>> thought to language is a very complicated process of *dismemberment* > of a > >>>> thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, Vygotsky > wrote, > >>>> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the > motivation of > >>>> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If something > can *pour > >>>> itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can > understand the > >>>> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is *expressed > *in a > >>>> word" [emphasis in the original] > >>>> > >>>> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation > *behind the > >>>> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and > language as > >>>> oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place the > >>>> approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present them as > >>>> mutually complimentary approaches. > >>>> > >>>> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of > >>>> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within words. > >>>> Polyphonic notions > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Jan 25 08:51:11 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 08:51:11 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: I found the mobius strip metaphor a lot more understandable than the "yesterday has not yet been born" metaphor, Larry. From the former I kept look for the sense/meaning distinction because it seemed as if needed to be there. Still mulling that idea over. mike On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 8:35 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > I have imaginally been walking with Zinchenko who is telling me about his > chats with Schpet and Vygotsky. > Zinchenko is engaged in rehabilitating the centrality of the meaning > of "meaning" to processes of phenomenological historical understanding, and > interpretation. His conversation is in the form of a rejoinder [or > joining back] with Vygotsky and Schpet with who he wants to bring out their > mutually shared thesis on the relation of thought and word. > Zinchenko uses metaphors to poetically embody his attempt to have > "meanings" more modest place with Vygotsky take on a more prominent and > central quality. > > Zinchenko wrote: > "A good image for the mutual relationships of meaning and sense is a Mobius > strip. In the process of understanding or thinking, we encounter > oppositely encountered *acts of making sense of meanings and sense giving > meaningful signs to senses *[authors emphasis], which are transformed into > each other. In Russian, 'meaning' ['znachenie'] and 'sign' ['znak'] have a > common root and, hence, the untranslated italicized phrase sounds like a > Russian pun. On the outer side of the strip may be meaning, which is > transformed into sense as a result of the act of making sense, and this > *becomes* the internal side of the *same* strip. Assigning a meaningful > sign to sense makes an *analogous *transformation. Anyway, it was highly > productive for Vygotsky to change the *focus* from *'meaning*' to sense. > *Such > a change *brings his views closer to those of Shpet. [page 228] > > I will pause here but want to point out how the metaphor of the Mobius > strip has a similar quality to the hermeneutical movement of "fusions of > horizons" > > Larry > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > Thank you, Martin! > > Henry > > > > > On Jan 24, 2015, at 1:49 PM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> > > wrote: > > > > > > This is the information I have, Henry. > > > > > > Freiberger-Sheikholeslami, E. (1984). Gustav G. Shpet: Hermeneutical > > logic and philosophical semiotics. In J. Deely (Ed.), Semiotics 1984 (pp. > > 381-391). Bloomington: Semiotic Society of America. > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > > > >> Martin, > > >> Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings and > > dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and his > > context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the eyes of > > hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes article was > > written? > > >> Henry > > >> > > >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer < > > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as Larry > > points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a little > > background: > > >>> > > >>> Martin > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss > > wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. > > >>>> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that > Shpet > > and > > >>>> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". > > >>>> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet > > disagreed. > > >>>> > > >>>> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph > > >>>> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the > Approaches > > of L. > > >>>> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain [which I > > >>>> associated with the other thread on rain] > > >>>> > > >>>> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there is a > > >>>> long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is hard to > > >>>> overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with Aleksandr > > Potebnya. > > >>>> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the various > > >>>> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their preference > > to the > > >>>> word, although they understood it differently. Let us start from > > >>>> Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in > thought > > is > > >>>> successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a thought > > with a > > >>>> cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition from > > >>>> thought to language is a very complicated process of *dismemberment* > > of a > > >>>> thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, Vygotsky > > wrote, > > >>>> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the > > motivation of > > >>>> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If something > > can *pour > > >>>> itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can > > understand the > > >>>> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is > *expressed > > *in a > > >>>> word" [emphasis in the original] > > >>>> > > >>>> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation > > *behind the > > >>>> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and > > language as > > >>>> oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place the > > >>>> approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present them > as > > >>>> mutually complimentary approaches. > > >>>> > > >>>> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of > > >>>> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within words. > > >>>> Polyphonic notions > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Jan 25 09:03:16 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 09:03:16 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Youth video narrative construction and reflection Message-ID: ?Dear Colleagues, ?Colleagues of mine are undertaking a study of self-narratives in which the process, the product, and reflectionds on p&p&self are shared. They have used the term, gallery, to describe the sort of common video/text space they would like to use. I know that several of you have made use of such utilities and wonder if you could suggest anything of particular use. send email directly to me to save those uninterested the time to hit delete/. I will compile a list if I get a list and re-circulate. Thanks in advance for any advice. mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From glassman.13@osu.edu Sun Jan 25 09:26:16 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 17:26:16 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Youth video narrative construction and reflection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F908B22B@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Hi Mike, I hope you don't mind I put this to the list instead of a direct message but this is of real interest to me and I was wondering what other people think. Are they looking to use digital storytelling for the youth to explore self-narrative or more direct, explanatory types of videos such as those found on a site such as Lynda.com (these are teaching videos not self-narrative). Are they looking to establish community among the youth or are they simply looking for some type of self-expression. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of mike cole [mcole@ucsd.edu] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 12:03 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Youth video narrative construction and reflection ?Dear Colleagues, ?Colleagues of mine are undertaking a study of self-narratives in which the process, the product, and reflectionds on p&p&self are shared. They have used the term, gallery, to describe the sort of common video/text space they would like to use. I know that several of you have made use of such utilities and wonder if you could suggest anything of particular use. send email directly to me to save those uninterested the time to hit delete/. I will compile a list if I get a list and re-circulate. Thanks in advance for any advice. mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jan 25 10:01:26 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 10:01:26 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mike, I chose that metaphor in relation to Zinchenko proposing two types of "embodiment" the primary [lived through] embodiment such as motor and perceptual movement and ways of orientation [which is enacted at the level of intonation, affect regulation, rhythmicity etc] AND secondary embodiment. Yesterday WAS first experienced as primarily embodied as lived through being-in-the-world. The question Zinchenko asks is "What sort of flesh [material form] this *initial meaning takes.* *Meaning *is not just a property of thinking. Meaning penetrates [infuses] the structure of motor and perceptual activities. Zinchenko argues we do not "know" intellectually what the *initial primary original* meaning or conception was embodied in. To "know" intellectually requires *second embodiment*. [objectification, or if you wish signification] of the initial embodiment witnin perceptual, operational, motor, and verbal meanings. THIS second embodiment I imagine as an alternative "level" [metaphors of surface and deep] Zinchenko suggests it is within this second embodiment [the level of images] that the initial original meaning *reveals *itself to the person for the *first *time and in this second embodiment "yesterday" is "born" [for the first time] This second embodiment in which the primary embodiment is revealed for the first time may turn *out to BE embodied as* an image, an action, or a thought. If this primary embodiment is expressed as a thought it will *be* expressed in a word [as a second embodiment or objectification or signification. The original embodiment becomes a "yesterday" as a second embodiment Zinchenko is questioning making a discrete "boundary" between meaning and sense. He imagines the relation [images or figural] through the metaphor of the Mobius strip. More like meaning infusing sense and sense infusing meaning. I find Zinchenko's approach clarifying where different traditions overlap Larry On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 8:51 AM, mike cole wrote: > I found the mobius strip metaphor a lot more understandable than the > "yesterday has not > yet been born" metaphor, Larry. From the former I kept look for the > sense/meaning distinction because it seemed as if needed to be there. Still > mulling that idea over. > mike > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 8:35 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > I have imaginally been walking with Zinchenko who is telling me about his > > chats with Schpet and Vygotsky. > > Zinchenko is engaged in rehabilitating the centrality of the meaning > > of "meaning" to processes of phenomenological historical understanding, > and > > interpretation. His conversation is in the form of a rejoinder [or > > joining back] with Vygotsky and Schpet with who he wants to bring out > their > > mutually shared thesis on the relation of thought and word. > > Zinchenko uses metaphors to poetically embody his attempt to have > > "meanings" more modest place with Vygotsky take on a more prominent and > > central quality. > > > > Zinchenko wrote: > > "A good image for the mutual relationships of meaning and sense is a > Mobius > > strip. In the process of understanding or thinking, we encounter > > oppositely encountered *acts of making sense of meanings and sense giving > > meaningful signs to senses *[authors emphasis], which are transformed > into > > each other. In Russian, 'meaning' ['znachenie'] and 'sign' ['znak'] have > a > > common root and, hence, the untranslated italicized phrase sounds like a > > Russian pun. On the outer side of the strip may be meaning, which is > > transformed into sense as a result of the act of making sense, and this > > *becomes* the internal side of the *same* strip. Assigning a meaningful > > sign to sense makes an *analogous *transformation. Anyway, it was > highly > > productive for Vygotsky to change the *focus* from *'meaning*' to sense. > > *Such > > a change *brings his views closer to those of Shpet. [page 228] > > > > I will pause here but want to point out how the metaphor of the Mobius > > strip has a similar quality to the hermeneutical movement of "fusions of > > horizons" > > > > Larry > > > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > > > Thank you, Martin! > > > Henry > > > > > > > On Jan 24, 2015, at 1:49 PM, Martin John Packer < > > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > This is the information I have, Henry. > > > > > > > > Freiberger-Sheikholeslami, E. (1984). Gustav G. Shpet: Hermeneutical > > > logic and philosophical semiotics. In J. Deely (Ed.), Semiotics 1984 > (pp. > > > 381-391). Bloomington: Semiotic Society of America. > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Martin, > > > >> Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings > and > > > dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and his > > > context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the eyes of > > > hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes article was > > > written? > > > >> Henry > > > >> > > > >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer < > > > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as > Larry > > > points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a little > > > background: > > > >>> > > > >>> Martin > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss > > > wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. > > > >>>> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that > > Shpet > > > and > > > >>>> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". > > > >>>> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet > > > disagreed. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph > > > >>>> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the > > Approaches > > > of L. > > > >>>> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain [which > I > > > >>>> associated with the other thread on rain] > > > >>>> > > > >>>> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there > is a > > > >>>> long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is hard to > > > >>>> overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with Aleksandr > > > Potebnya. > > > >>>> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the > various > > > >>>> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their > preference > > > to the > > > >>>> word, although they understood it differently. Let us start from > > > >>>> Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in > > thought > > > is > > > >>>> successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a > thought > > > with a > > > >>>> cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition > from > > > >>>> thought to language is a very complicated process of > *dismemberment* > > > of a > > > >>>> thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, Vygotsky > > > wrote, > > > >>>> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the > > > motivation of > > > >>>> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If something > > > can *pour > > > >>>> itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can > > > understand the > > > >>>> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is > > *expressed > > > *in a > > > >>>> word" [emphasis in the original] > > > >>>> > > > >>>> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation > > > *behind the > > > >>>> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and > > > language as > > > >>>> oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place the > > > >>>> approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present them > > as > > > >>>> mutually complimentary approaches. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of > > > >>>> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within > words. > > > >>>> Polyphonic notions > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Jan 25 10:24:15 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 10:24:15 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Youth and Vido Narrative Project Message-ID: Michael's quite reasonable question about the purposes of the folks seeking information about cheap/free online facilities that engage youth in video production, exposition, and reflective discussion incited me to contact Morten Nissen, for whom the query was sent, and ask if it would be ok for me to post his entire note to me. I think that the project he is undertaking along with Catherine Hassa, a LCHC alumna who comes to the project from a Social Studies of Science perspective, will be of interest to many on xmca, even if youth and new media is not your thing. Morten has a very informative article in Andy's volume on Projects that I think it would be great for XMCAers to discuss. It gave me a lot to think about that has echoes of our discussion of the LSV/ANL discussion, but with Morten articulating a critical perspective that puts LSV under the microscope, along with communities of practice. Anyway, here is the message Morten sent me. If its not of interest, BAIL! mike *Fra:* lchcmike@gmail.com [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com] *P? vegne af *mike cole *Sendt:* 22. januar 2015 18:31 *Til:* Morten Nissen *Emne:* Re: Have you received MCA mail? Nice to chat with you. hope you scored a goal! I will follow up. mike On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Morten Nissen wrote: Dear Mike Here?s a little bit on the theme of prototypical narratives. Attached is an article to appear in Dialogic Pedagogy that includes an argument for Prototypical Narratives, but this should be read with my chapter in the Blunden book, for our interest centers on artifacts, too ? as you can see also in the description of the PhD course with Emily Martin below. As mentioned, I?ll talk with Cathrine and return about your nice idea of a seminar. Warmly, Morten Performing Beyond Representation, or: Prototypical Narratives - the stuff (:artifacts) that dreams (:theories) are made ofPhD course with Emily Martin, Morten Nissen, and Line Lerche M?rck This course takes as its starting point the fact that we, as researchers, increasingly are not only sampling data, but take part in producing narratives as somehow prototypical, often involving ourselves in unconventional ways, and carried by genres and model artifacts that we barely understand or control (e.g. blogs or videos on shifting websites). Why call this prototypical narratives? In the philosophy of language, a prototype is a concrete exemplar that is used to represent a generality. In the Science and Technology Studies (STS) tradition, this has been taken up with a focus on how the exemplar is produced and handled as artifact in a situated practice, and how its status as prototypical, or potentially standard, is realized and reproduced in concrete networks of practices. The narrative approach in the social sciences and humanities has highlighted the sequential and contextual ordering of processes and events as meaningful in existential and practical terms. By its logical form, narrative proposes singular occurrences as meaningful and generally relevant. Taken together, prototypical narratives are narratives that designate certain meaningful processes, events and practices as prototypical by capturing them in text, video, or other media, broadly with a view to relevance for guiding and reflecting practice. This fusion of narrativity and STS seems relevant since a) we are increasingly required to provide concrete alternatives to the empiricist-rationalist format of knowledge that is embodied in the infrastructures of standardization through which practices are ruled, b) the cultural genres of narrative performance and production evolve rapidly, especially in terms of expanded technologies and challenges to the private/public divisions, and this means that c) anyway we produce and use model artifacts that take us well beyond what we can easily handle (ethically and methodologically) as 'data' in research or 'case materials' in teaching. This new situation requires us to reconceptualize classic issues such as ? *Temporality*: The way we recreate the past to feed hopes for the future is accelerating; historicity is overtaking any foundations; ? *Reality*: With hyper-reality and reality TV, representation is no longer secondary to its reference; we co-create the events we call in to witness our stories; ? *Performance*: Could it be that ?citation? of (e.g. gender or disease) standards increasingly fuse with producing and transforming them? ? *Subjectivity*: It is increasingly ourselves that we perform and recreate, yet we tell of ourselves in forms that assume other objectivities (such as those of drama, TV or art); ? *Logic*: Beyond the academic text, who knows how research questions, arguments or findings might look? We have been pondering these ideas for a while, reflecting on the videos and songs of former gang-members and drug users, ?curating? galleries, even confessing our past on websites. We are now so privileged as to have persuaded Emily Martin to help us understand it. Emily Martin is professor of Anthropology at New York University, famous for feminist and science studies, and deservedly praised for wonderful works such as *Bipolar Expeditions *from 2009. Besides academic presentations, the course will take up singular instances of what could be called prototypical narratives from the research practices and networks of teachers and students. We suggest a 4 days course in the fall of 2015. The precise time will be settled later. *Morten Nissen* PhD, Dr. Psych. Professor *Department of Education* Aarhus University Tuborgvej 164 2400 Copenhagen NV Tlf: +45 30282418 www.edu.au.dk/ -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Jan 25 10:38:15 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 10:38:15 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Now THAT I think I understood, Larry. Thanks. *Meaning *is not just a property of thinking. Meaning penetrates [infuses] the structure of motor and perceptual activities. So we are talking, so to speak, about "zhivanie" followed by "perezhivanie (living and living through, System 1 and System 2 in current cog sci jargon? The two are distinguished not only temporally, but through different modalities, different "systems of mediation." One embodied in the moving body, the flesh, the other emobided in movement and sound. If that interpretation is even close to the right way to think about the matter, how do I describe the walk I took this morning that was (more or less) simultaneously, being in a marsh at dawn, incredible sunrise, grey heron in the gloom by the lagoon and a hawk mewing. The dog stopping the procession to do her own sniffing. And thinking about the discussion on xmca. Is there less living in my writing this note than in feeding the birds in the garden? I think I vote for both/and. :-) That summary should go into the newcomer's guide! mike On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > Mike, > I chose that metaphor in relation to Zinchenko proposing two types of > "embodiment" the primary [lived through] embodiment such as motor and > perceptual movement and ways of orientation [which is enacted at the level > of intonation, affect regulation, rhythmicity etc] AND > secondary embodiment. > > Yesterday WAS first experienced as primarily embodied as lived through > being-in-the-world. The question Zinchenko asks is "What sort of flesh > [material form] this *initial meaning takes.* > *Meaning *is not just a property of thinking. Meaning penetrates [infuses] > the structure of motor and perceptual activities. > Zinchenko argues we do not "know" intellectually what the *initial primary > original* meaning or conception was embodied in. > To "know" intellectually requires *second embodiment*. [objectification, > or if you wish signification] of the initial embodiment witnin perceptual, > operational, motor, and verbal meanings. THIS second embodiment I imagine > as an alternative "level" [metaphors of surface and deep] > Zinchenko suggests it is within this second embodiment [the level of > images] that the initial original meaning *reveals *itself to the person > for the *first *time and in this second embodiment "yesterday" is "born" > [for the first time] > > This second embodiment in which the primary embodiment is revealed for the > first time may turn *out to BE embodied as* an image, an action, or a > thought. If this primary embodiment is expressed as a thought it will *be* > expressed in a word [as a second embodiment or objectification or > signification. > The original embodiment becomes a "yesterday" as a second embodiment > Zinchenko is questioning making a discrete "boundary" between meaning and > sense. He imagines the relation [images or figural] through the metaphor > of the Mobius strip. More like meaning infusing sense and sense infusing > meaning. > > I find Zinchenko's approach clarifying where different traditions overlap > Larry > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 8:51 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > I found the mobius strip metaphor a lot more understandable than the > > "yesterday has not > > yet been born" metaphor, Larry. From the former I kept look for the > > sense/meaning distinction because it seemed as if needed to be there. > Still > > mulling that idea over. > > mike > > > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 8:35 AM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > > > I have imaginally been walking with Zinchenko who is telling me about > his > > > chats with Schpet and Vygotsky. > > > Zinchenko is engaged in rehabilitating the centrality of the meaning > > > of "meaning" to processes of phenomenological historical understanding, > > and > > > interpretation. His conversation is in the form of a rejoinder [or > > > joining back] with Vygotsky and Schpet with who he wants to bring out > > their > > > mutually shared thesis on the relation of thought and word. > > > Zinchenko uses metaphors to poetically embody his attempt to have > > > "meanings" more modest place with Vygotsky take on a more prominent and > > > central quality. > > > > > > Zinchenko wrote: > > > "A good image for the mutual relationships of meaning and sense is a > > Mobius > > > strip. In the process of understanding or thinking, we encounter > > > oppositely encountered *acts of making sense of meanings and sense > giving > > > meaningful signs to senses *[authors emphasis], which are transformed > > into > > > each other. In Russian, 'meaning' ['znachenie'] and 'sign' ['znak'] > have > > a > > > common root and, hence, the untranslated italicized phrase sounds like > a > > > Russian pun. On the outer side of the strip may be meaning, which is > > > transformed into sense as a result of the act of making sense, and this > > > *becomes* the internal side of the *same* strip. Assigning a meaningful > > > sign to sense makes an *analogous *transformation. Anyway, it was > > highly > > > productive for Vygotsky to change the *focus* from *'meaning*' to > sense. > > > *Such > > > a change *brings his views closer to those of Shpet. [page 228] > > > > > > I will pause here but want to point out how the metaphor of the Mobius > > > strip has a similar quality to the hermeneutical movement of "fusions > of > > > horizons" > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD > > wrote: > > > > > > > Thank you, Martin! > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > On Jan 24, 2015, at 1:49 PM, Martin John Packer < > > > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > This is the information I have, Henry. > > > > > > > > > > Freiberger-Sheikholeslami, E. (1984). Gustav G. Shpet: > Hermeneutical > > > > logic and philosophical semiotics. In J. Deely (Ed.), Semiotics 1984 > > (pp. > > > > 381-391). Bloomington: Semiotic Society of America. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Martin, > > > > >> Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings > > and > > > > dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and his > > > > context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the eyes > of > > > > hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes article was > > > > written? > > > > >> Henry > > > > >> > > > > >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer < > > > > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as > > Larry > > > > points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a > little > > > > background: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Martin > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss > > > > wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>>> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. > > > > >>>> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that > > > Shpet > > > > and > > > > >>>> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". > > > > >>>> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet > > > > disagreed. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph > > > > >>>> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the > > > Approaches > > > > of L. > > > > >>>> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain > [which > > I > > > > >>>> associated with the other thread on rain] > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there > > is a > > > > >>>> long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is hard to > > > > >>>> overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with > Aleksandr > > > > Potebnya. > > > > >>>> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the > > various > > > > >>>> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their > > preference > > > > to the > > > > >>>> word, although they understood it differently. Let us start > from > > > > >>>> Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in > > > thought > > > > is > > > > >>>> successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a > > thought > > > > with a > > > > >>>> cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition > > from > > > > >>>> thought to language is a very complicated process of > > *dismemberment* > > > > of a > > > > >>>> thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, > Vygotsky > > > > wrote, > > > > >>>> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the > > > > motivation of > > > > >>>> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If > something > > > > can *pour > > > > >>>> itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can > > > > understand the > > > > >>>> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is > > > *expressed > > > > *in a > > > > >>>> word" [emphasis in the original] > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation > > > > *behind the > > > > >>>> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and > > > > language as > > > > >>>> oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place > the > > > > >>>> approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present > them > > > as > > > > >>>> mutually complimentary approaches. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of > > > > >>>> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within > > words. > > > > >>>> Polyphonic notions > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From glassman.13@osu.edu Sun Jan 25 12:02:30 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 20:02:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Youth and Vido Narrative Project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F908B2C3@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Oh I see, they are looking for open/publicly accessible online narratives of youth that they want to add to their gallery for a course. I misunderstood. Center for Digital Storytelling is a clearinghouse for this type of stuff I think and a great place to start (if they haven't been in contact already). http://storycenter.org/ Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of mike cole [mcole@ucsd.edu] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 1:24 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: mn@edu.au.dk Subject: [Xmca-l] Youth and Vido Narrative Project Michael's quite reasonable question about the purposes of the folks seeking information about cheap/free online facilities that engage youth in video production, exposition, and reflective discussion incited me to contact Morten Nissen, for whom the query was sent, and ask if it would be ok for me to post his entire note to me. I think that the project he is undertaking along with Catherine Hassa, a LCHC alumna who comes to the project from a Social Studies of Science perspective, will be of interest to many on xmca, even if youth and new media is not your thing. Morten has a very informative article in Andy's volume on Projects that I think it would be great for XMCAers to discuss. It gave me a lot to think about that has echoes of our discussion of the LSV/ANL discussion, but with Morten articulating a critical perspective that puts LSV under the microscope, along with communities of practice. Anyway, here is the message Morten sent me. If its not of interest, BAIL! mike *Fra:* lchcmike@gmail.com [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com] *P? vegne af *mike cole *Sendt:* 22. januar 2015 18:31 *Til:* Morten Nissen *Emne:* Re: Have you received MCA mail? Nice to chat with you. hope you scored a goal! I will follow up. mike On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Morten Nissen wrote: Dear Mike Here?s a little bit on the theme of prototypical narratives. Attached is an article to appear in Dialogic Pedagogy that includes an argument for Prototypical Narratives, but this should be read with my chapter in the Blunden book, for our interest centers on artifacts, too ? as you can see also in the description of the PhD course with Emily Martin below. As mentioned, I?ll talk with Cathrine and return about your nice idea of a seminar. Warmly, Morten Performing Beyond Representation, or: Prototypical Narratives - the stuff (:artifacts) that dreams (:theories) are made ofPhD course with Emily Martin, Morten Nissen, and Line Lerche M?rck This course takes as its starting point the fact that we, as researchers, increasingly are not only sampling data, but take part in producing narratives as somehow prototypical, often involving ourselves in unconventional ways, and carried by genres and model artifacts that we barely understand or control (e.g. blogs or videos on shifting websites). Why call this prototypical narratives? In the philosophy of language, a prototype is a concrete exemplar that is used to represent a generality. In the Science and Technology Studies (STS) tradition, this has been taken up with a focus on how the exemplar is produced and handled as artifact in a situated practice, and how its status as prototypical, or potentially standard, is realized and reproduced in concrete networks of practices. The narrative approach in the social sciences and humanities has highlighted the sequential and contextual ordering of processes and events as meaningful in existential and practical terms. By its logical form, narrative proposes singular occurrences as meaningful and generally relevant. Taken together, prototypical narratives are narratives that designate certain meaningful processes, events and practices as prototypical by capturing them in text, video, or other media, broadly with a view to relevance for guiding and reflecting practice. This fusion of narrativity and STS seems relevant since a) we are increasingly required to provide concrete alternatives to the empiricist-rationalist format of knowledge that is embodied in the infrastructures of standardization through which practices are ruled, b) the cultural genres of narrative performance and production evolve rapidly, especially in terms of expanded technologies and challenges to the private/public divisions, and this means that c) anyway we produce and use model artifacts that take us well beyond what we can easily handle (ethically and methodologically) as 'data' in research or 'case materials' in teaching. This new situation requires us to reconceptualize classic issues such as ? *Temporality*: The way we recreate the past to feed hopes for the future is accelerating; historicity is overtaking any foundations; ? *Reality*: With hyper-reality and reality TV, representation is no longer secondary to its reference; we co-create the events we call in to witness our stories; ? *Performance*: Could it be that ?citation? of (e.g. gender or disease) standards increasingly fuse with producing and transforming them? ? *Subjectivity*: It is increasingly ourselves that we perform and recreate, yet we tell of ourselves in forms that assume other objectivities (such as those of drama, TV or art); ? *Logic*: Beyond the academic text, who knows how research questions, arguments or findings might look? We have been pondering these ideas for a while, reflecting on the videos and songs of former gang-members and drug users, ?curating? galleries, even confessing our past on websites. We are now so privileged as to have persuaded Emily Martin to help us understand it. Emily Martin is professor of Anthropology at New York University, famous for feminist and science studies, and deservedly praised for wonderful works such as *Bipolar Expeditions *from 2009. Besides academic presentations, the course will take up singular instances of what could be called prototypical narratives from the research practices and networks of teachers and students. We suggest a 4 days course in the fall of 2015. The precise time will be settled later. *Morten Nissen* PhD, Dr. Psych. Professor *Department of Education* Aarhus University Tuborgvej 164 2400 Copenhagen NV Tlf: +45 30282418 www.edu.au.dk/ -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Jan 25 13:04:06 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 13:04:06 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Youth and Vido Narrative Project In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F908B2C3@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F908B2C3@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: How about online programs for creating your own community's narratives and reflective practices? Mike On Sunday, January 25, 2015, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Oh I see, they are looking for open/publicly accessible online narratives > of youth that they want to add to their gallery for a course. I > misunderstood. Center for Digital Storytelling is a clearinghouse for this > type of stuff I think and a great place to start (if they haven't been in > contact already). > > http://storycenter.org/ > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [ > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] on behalf of mike cole [ > mcole@ucsd.edu ] > Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 1:24 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: mn@edu.au.dk > Subject: [Xmca-l] Youth and Vido Narrative Project > > Michael's quite reasonable question about the purposes of the folks seeking > information about cheap/free online facilities that engage > youth in video production, exposition, and reflective discussion incited me > to contact Morten Nissen, for whom the query was sent, > and ask if it would be ok for me to post his entire note to me. > > I think that the project he is undertaking along with Catherine Hassa, a > LCHC alumna who comes to the project from a Social Studies of Science > perspective, will be of interest to many on xmca, even if youth and new > media is not your thing. > > Morten has a very informative article in Andy's volume on Projects that I > think it would be great for XMCAers to discuss. It gave me a lot to think > about that has echoes of our discussion of the LSV/ANL discussion, but with > Morten articulating a critical perspective that puts > LSV under the microscope, along with communities of practice. > > Anyway, here is the message Morten sent me. If its not of interest, BAIL! > > mike > > *Fra:* lchcmike@gmail.com [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com > ] *P? vegne af *mike > cole > *Sendt:* 22. januar 2015 18:31 > *Til:* Morten Nissen > *Emne:* Re: Have you received MCA mail? > > > > Nice to chat with you. hope you scored a goal! I will follow up. > > mike > > > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Morten Nissen > wrote: > > Dear Mike > > Here?s a little bit on the theme of prototypical narratives. Attached is an > article to appear in Dialogic Pedagogy that includes an argument for > Prototypical Narratives, but this should be read with my chapter in the > Blunden book, for our interest centers on artifacts, too ? as you can see > also in the description of the PhD course with Emily Martin below. > > As mentioned, I?ll talk with Cathrine and return about your nice idea of a > seminar. > > Warmly, > > Morten > > > Performing Beyond Representation, or: Prototypical Narratives - the stuff > (:artifacts) that dreams (:theories) are made ofPhD course with Emily > Martin, Morten Nissen, and Line Lerche M?rck > > > > This course takes as its starting point the fact that we, as researchers, > increasingly are not only sampling data, but take part in producing > narratives as somehow prototypical, often involving ourselves in > unconventional ways, and carried by genres and model artifacts that we > barely understand or control (e.g. blogs or videos on shifting websites). > > > > Why call this prototypical narratives? In the philosophy of language, a > prototype is a concrete exemplar that is used to represent a generality. In > the Science and Technology Studies (STS) tradition, this has been taken up > with a focus on how the exemplar is produced and handled as artifact in a > situated practice, and how its status as prototypical, or potentially > standard, is realized and reproduced in concrete networks of practices. The > narrative approach in the social sciences and humanities has highlighted > the sequential and contextual ordering of processes and events as > meaningful in existential and practical terms. By its logical form, > narrative proposes singular occurrences as meaningful and generally > relevant. Taken together, prototypical narratives are narratives that > designate certain meaningful processes, events and practices as > prototypical by capturing them in text, video, or other media, broadly with > a view to relevance for guiding and reflecting practice. > > This fusion of narrativity and STS seems relevant since a) we are > increasingly required to provide concrete alternatives to the > empiricist-rationalist format of knowledge that is embodied in the > infrastructures of standardization through which practices are ruled, b) > the cultural genres of narrative performance and production evolve rapidly, > especially in terms of expanded technologies and challenges to the > private/public divisions, and this means that c) anyway we produce and use > model artifacts that take us well beyond what we can easily handle > (ethically and methodologically) as 'data' in research or 'case materials' > in teaching. > > > > This new situation requires us to reconceptualize classic issues such as > > ? *Temporality*: The way we recreate the past to feed hopes for the > future is accelerating; historicity is overtaking any foundations; > > ? *Reality*: With hyper-reality and reality TV, representation is no > longer secondary to its reference; we co-create the events we call in to > witness our stories; > > ? *Performance*: Could it be that ?citation? of (e.g. gender or > disease) standards increasingly fuse with producing and transforming them? > > ? *Subjectivity*: It is increasingly ourselves that we perform and > recreate, yet we tell of ourselves in forms that assume other objectivities > (such as those of drama, TV or art); > > ? *Logic*: Beyond the academic text, who knows how research questions, > arguments or findings might look? > > We have been pondering these ideas for a while, reflecting on the videos > and songs of former gang-members and drug users, ?curating? galleries, even > confessing our past on websites. We are now so privileged as to have > persuaded Emily Martin to help us understand it. Emily Martin is professor > of Anthropology at New York University, famous for feminist and science > studies, and deservedly praised for wonderful works such as *Bipolar > Expeditions *from 2009. > > > > Besides academic presentations, the course will take up singular instances > of what could be called prototypical narratives from the research practices > and networks of teachers and students. > > > > We suggest a 4 days course in the fall of 2015. The precise time will be > settled later. > > > > > > *Morten Nissen* > > PhD, Dr. Psych. > > Professor > > *Department of Education* > > Aarhus University > Tuborgvej 164 > > 2400 Copenhagen NV > > > > Tlf: +45 30282418 > www.edu.au.dk/ > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Jan 25 18:15:41 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 02:15:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> , <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> Message-ID: <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> This time, the BBC has come up with quite a good discussion of phenomenology, from Husserl to Heidegger and onwards (though not to Spet, unfortunately)! Martin On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:19 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Martin, > > I would be interested in the "intro to Husserl" by Shpet, as I have long been curious how the Husserl got to LSV. > > Is it possible/doable to get some scans of chapter(s) from Appearance & Sense? you know, the ones you believe to be most juicy? > > You may at any time hermeneutically determine what is "most juicy." > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Jan 26 07:07:58 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 07:07:58 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: I would like to share a page from the Zinchenko article which puts in play Vygotsky's and Shpet's understandings of the play of word and thought. It may be going to the "heart of the matter" The quote is from page 237 According to such logic, inner forms do not disappear, but rather continue to participate in perception, memory, thinking, and action. Action, image, word, feeling, thought, and will ? in other words everything that is united by the concepts ?mental processes,? ?mental acts,? or ?forces of the soul? ? are living forms. And because they are living, they are, therefore, active, meaningful, unfinalized, and restless *. . . * Like a soul! Each one of them is not ?pure culture.? One form contains in itself the others. The ancient principle of ?All in one, one in all? is at work, and this does not interfere with their relatively autonomous existence. But even while they maintain their autonomy, they ?remember? their origins and remain heterogeneous forms. The heterogeneity of images, words, and actions is noted in various poetic metaphors: ?eyes of the soul,? ?poetic senses,? ?organs of sense as theoreticians,? ?kinetic melody,? ?picturesque idea,? ?reasonable eye,? ?sighted mind,? ?soul in flight? (about ballet), ?shame of sighted fingers,? and so forth. The internal forms of action and image have their own dynamic forms subordinated to the sense of movement or perceptual (or perhaps thinking) tasks. We know that we can play out action before action, and after action (if it is not too late!), we can manipulate an image, mentally rotate it, and so forth. The dynamic forms of words, images, and actions enrich each other. Images and actions, like words, perform operational functions, which, as in the case of word, may be separated from meaning. Shpet paid attention to meaning. The instantaneousness of thought may be related to the simultaneity of image, and perhaps the internal playback of action. Finally, the interchange of function is possible between word, image, and action, perhaps, including intellectual functions. Don?t we talk about visual or musical thinking? Doesn?t the experienced conductor play the whole symphony in the internal plane in one or two minutes? I have said enough here to come back to the ?wordless impulse,? or ?unembodied intention,? to the situation, paradoxically presented by Potebnya and Bibikhin when they say: ?there is word even where there is no word.? The word does not die in thought. More likely, thought dies by drowning in words. After all, truth may be born and regenerated in discussions, but it may degenerate as well. Perhaps, thought has its own internal form, and this has to become a subject of serious reflection. It is no accident that the beginning of this chapter contains the whole gamut of answers on what stands behind thought. And if, for example, the internal form of thought contains images, the internal form of images contains the word." *The cornerstone of Zinchenko's insight is the notion that these forms exist and have inner form - "LIVING FORM". -* *He constructs [and discovers] that if we reduce or abstract this living form we "have" created [or discovered]specimens which we observe as spectators. In this move we cut out the living form and are left with a dead body* *Larry* : On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 6:15 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > This time, the BBC has come up with quite a good discussion of > phenomenology, from Husserl to Heidegger and onwards (though not to Spet, > unfortunately)! > > > > Martin > > On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:19 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Hi Martin, > > > > I would be interested in the "intro to Husserl" by Shpet, as I have long > been curious how the Husserl got to LSV. > > > > Is it possible/doable to get some scans of chapter(s) from Appearance & > Sense? you know, the ones you believe to be most juicy? > > > > You may at any time hermeneutically determine what is "most juicy." > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Jan 26 07:33:39 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (greg.a.thompson@gmail.com) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 08:33:39 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Thanks for this Martin. A lovely explanation that helps me to see how questions of ontology naturally flow out of phenomenology (something that many anthropologists doing ontology and/or phenomenology have missed!). I also noticed remarkable resonances between etienne and mikes mind the gap paper and Sartre's argument locating freedom in the gap between the perception of the thing and our awareness of our perception of the thing. It makes sense but I hadn't thought of mike and etienne's paper in this relation before. Cheers, Greg Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 25, 2015, at 7:15 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > This time, the BBC has come up with quite a good discussion of phenomenology, from Husserl to Heidegger and onwards (though not to Spet, unfortunately)! > > > > Martin > >> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:19 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Hi Martin, >> >> I would be interested in the "intro to Husserl" by Shpet, as I have long been curious how the Husserl got to LSV. >> >> Is it possible/doable to get some scans of chapter(s) from Appearance & Sense? you know, the ones you believe to be most juicy? >> >> You may at any time hermeneutically determine what is "most juicy." >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Mon Jan 26 09:06:14 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 17:06:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Yes, I had the same response, Greg. A 'gap' is essential for freedom, Sartre suggests: the gap between who we are and who we could be. That gap is what gives us freedom to act. And I think that imagination would be central to filling it (historical and cultural variations notwithstanding). And yes, ontology is central, in various ways. One is the view that appearances lead us to how things are, to what exists: there is not, for phenomenology, a complete rupture between things-in-themselves and things-for-us. This connects with the view that humans play a role in the 'constitution' of reality. For Husserl this was a matter of the activity of subjectivity; while for Heidegger it was a matter of participation in public practices. But both saw a link between human activity and the world we live in. To me there are clear connections to Marx, on the one hand, and to Vygotsky, on the other. Martin On Jan 26, 2015, at 10:33 AM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > Thanks for this Martin. A lovely explanation that helps me to see how questions of ontology naturally flow out of phenomenology (something that many anthropologists doing ontology and/or phenomenology have missed!). > > I also noticed remarkable resonances between etienne and mikes mind the gap paper and Sartre's argument locating freedom in the gap between the perception of the thing and our awareness of our perception of the thing. It makes sense but I hadn't thought of mike and etienne's paper in this relation before. > Cheers, > Greg > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 25, 2015, at 7:15 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: >> >> This time, the BBC has come up with quite a good discussion of phenomenology, from Husserl to Heidegger and onwards (though not to Spet, unfortunately)! >> >> >> >> Martin >> >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:19 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> Hi Martin, >>> >>> I would be interested in the "intro to Husserl" by Shpet, as I have long been curious how the Husserl got to LSV. >>> >>> Is it possible/doable to get some scans of chapter(s) from Appearance & Sense? you know, the ones you believe to be most juicy? >>> >>> You may at any time hermeneutically determine what is "most juicy." >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >> >> > From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Jan 26 09:49:39 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 10:49:39 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <0A796E27-C88F-47FA-BAA2-7EB7D3AF263C@gmail.com> Larry, Please help me: 1) What is ?inner form?? 2) I can?t find the Zinchenko article in my emails. Was it sent out or a link to it? Thanks for your help. Henry > On Jan 26, 2015, at 8:07 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > I would like to share a page from the Zinchenko article which puts in play > Vygotsky's and Shpet's understandings of the play of word and thought. It > may be going to the "heart of the matter" The quote is from page 237 > > According to such logic, inner forms do not disappear, > > but rather continue to participate in perception, memory, thinking, and > > action. > > Action, image, word, feeling, thought, and will ? in other words everything > > that is united by the concepts ?mental processes,? ?mental acts,? > > or ?forces of the soul? ? are living forms. And because they are living, > > they are, therefore, active, meaningful, unfinalized, and restless *. . . * > Like > > a soul! Each one of them is not ?pure culture.? One form contains in > > itself the others. The ancient principle of ?All in one, one in all? is at > > work, and this does not interfere with their relatively autonomous > existence. > > But even while they maintain their autonomy, they ?remember? > > their origins and remain heterogeneous forms. > > The heterogeneity of images, words, and actions is noted in various > > poetic metaphors: ?eyes of the soul,? ?poetic senses,? ?organs of sense as > > theoreticians,? ?kinetic melody,? ?picturesque idea,? ?reasonable eye,? > > ?sighted mind,? ?soul in flight? (about ballet), ?shame of sighted fingers,? > > and so forth. The internal forms of action and image have their > > own dynamic forms subordinated to the sense of movement or perceptual > > (or perhaps thinking) tasks. We know that we can play out action > > before action, and after action (if it is not too late!), we can manipulate > > an image, mentally rotate it, and so forth. > > The dynamic forms of words, images, and actions enrich each other. > > Images and actions, like words, perform operational functions, which, as > > in the case of word, may be separated from meaning. Shpet paid attention > > to meaning. The instantaneousness of thought may be related to > > the simultaneity of image, and perhaps the internal playback of action. > > Finally, the interchange of function is possible between word, image, and > > action, perhaps, including intellectual functions. Don?t we talk about > > visual or musical thinking? Doesn?t the experienced conductor play the > > whole symphony in the internal plane in one or two minutes? > > I have said enough here to come back to the ?wordless impulse,? or > > ?unembodied intention,? to the situation, paradoxically presented by > > Potebnya and Bibikhin when they say: ?there is word even where there > > is no word.? The word does not die in thought. More likely, thought dies > > by drowning in words. After all, truth may be born and regenerated in > > discussions, but it may degenerate as well. Perhaps, thought has its own > > internal form, and this has to become a subject of serious reflection. It is > > no accident that the beginning of this chapter contains the whole gamut > > of answers on what stands behind thought. And if, for example, the > > internal form of thought contains images, the internal form of images > > contains the word." > *The cornerstone of Zinchenko's insight is the notion that these > forms exist and have inner form - "LIVING FORM". -* > *He constructs [and discovers] that if we reduce or abstract this living > form we "have" created [or discovered]specimens which we observe as > spectators. In this move we cut out the living form and are left with a > dead body* > *Larry* > : > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 6:15 PM, Martin John Packer > wrote: > >> This time, the BBC has come up with quite a good discussion of >> phenomenology, from Husserl to Heidegger and onwards (though not to Spet, >> unfortunately)! >> >> >> >> Martin >> >> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:19 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >>> Hi Martin, >>> >>> I would be interested in the "intro to Husserl" by Shpet, as I have long >> been curious how the Husserl got to LSV. >>> >>> Is it possible/doable to get some scans of chapter(s) from Appearance & >> Sense? you know, the ones you believe to be most juicy? >>> >>> You may at any time hermeneutically determine what is "most juicy." >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >> >> >> From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Mon Jan 26 10:38:50 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 12:38:50 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu>, <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co>, , , , <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu>, <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co>, , Message-ID: Message from Francine Smolucha: Larry, Greg, Martin, et al Everything I have been reading on this thread is consistent with the neuroscience of the prefrontal cortex. This is no surprise since it was Vygotsky's colleague Luria whose pioneering research into the prefrontal cortex is the basis for the contemporary research. Joaquin Fuster's book The Prefrontal Cortex (2009) is the reference point for research in this area. I have been doing a thorough read of it and the 2014 Oxford University publication the Neurobiology of the Prefrontal Cortex (authored by Passingham and Wise.) Here's the gist of it: Neurological systems (akin to Vygotsky's concept of psychological systems) connect the neocortical layers of the prefrontal cortex with other areas of the cerebral cortex and with deep structures like the hippocampus (working memory) and the amygdula (drives and emotions). These neurological systems (or pathways or webs) are more physiological than anatomical. When a thought occurs neurochemicals released along these pathways connect prefrontal goal directed activations with sensory association areas, memories, emotions, and behavioral (motor) outcomes. Even rats (in a Skinner box) have a prefrontal cortex that initiates goal directed behavior. But rats do not have the six top layers that make up the neocortex. It is the neocortex of the prefrontal that enables humans to self-consciously reflect upon (and self-consciously direct) abstract thought, imagination, analytical thinking, and emotions. Action plans can be played out mentally (in the imagination) before or after being executed. The discussions, I have read, consistently regard self-consciously directed thought, emotions, and behavior as the result of internalized speech (a la Vygotsky.) Thoughts are not ready made - instead they are fluid, exiting for the moment. As in I have a thought (at this moment) or I had a thought (but now its gone) or it occurs to me or you know what I'm thinking? (at this moment). Thought seems to be a verb. (i.e., thought is a temporal sequence of neural activation.) > From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 17:06:14 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] > > Yes, I had the same response, Greg. A 'gap' is essential for freedom, Sartre suggests: the gap between who we are and who we could be. That gap is what gives us freedom to act. And I think that imagination would be central to filling it (historical and cultural variations notwithstanding). > > And yes, ontology is central, in various ways. One is the view that appearances lead us to how things are, to what exists: there is not, for phenomenology, a complete rupture between things-in-themselves and things-for-us. This connects with the view that humans play a role in the 'constitution' of reality. For Husserl this was a matter of the activity of subjectivity; while for Heidegger it was a matter of participation in public practices. But both saw a link between human activity and the world we live in. To me there are clear connections to Marx, on the one hand, and to Vygotsky, on the other. > > Martin > > On Jan 26, 2015, at 10:33 AM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > > > Thanks for this Martin. A lovely explanation that helps me to see how questions of ontology naturally flow out of phenomenology (something that many anthropologists doing ontology and/or phenomenology have missed!). > > > > I also noticed remarkable resonances between etienne and mikes mind the gap paper and Sartre's argument locating freedom in the gap between the perception of the thing and our awareness of our perception of the thing. It makes sense but I hadn't thought of mike and etienne's paper in this relation before. > > Cheers, > > Greg > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Jan 25, 2015, at 7:15 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > >> > >> This time, the BBC has come up with quite a good discussion of phenomenology, from Husserl to Heidegger and onwards (though not to Spet, unfortunately)! > >> > >> > >> > >> Martin > >> > >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:19 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Martin, > >>> > >>> I would be interested in the "intro to Husserl" by Shpet, as I have long been curious how the Husserl got to LSV. > >>> > >>> Is it possible/doable to get some scans of chapter(s) from Appearance & Sense? you know, the ones you believe to be most juicy? > >>> > >>> You may at any time hermeneutically determine what is "most juicy." > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> > >>> Annalisa > >> > >> > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jan 26 13:03:25 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 21:03:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] The rise of the word "meritocracy" Message-ID: <1422306203558.86550@unm.edu> Hi all, This came to me this morning and thought I'd pass it one if it is of interest (it is a satire): The Rise of the Meritocracy by Michael Young (2011) Michael Young has christened the oligarchy of the future "Meritocracy." Indeed, the word is now part of the English language. It would appear that the formula: IQ+Effort=Merit may well constitute the basic belief of the ruling class in the twenty-first century. Projecting himself into the year 2034, the author of this sociological satire shows how present decisions and practices may remold our society. It is widespread knowledge that it is insufficient to be somebody's nephew to obtain a responsible post in business, government, teaching, or science. Experts in education and selection apply scientific principles to sift out the leaders of tomorrow. You need intelligence rating, qualification, experience, application, and a certain caliber to achieve status. In a word, one must show merit to advance in the new society of tomorrow. In a new opening essay, Young reflects on the reception of his work, and its production, in a candid and lively way. Many of the critical ambiguities surrounding its original publication are now clarified and resolved. What we have is what the Guardian of London called "A brilliant essay." and what Time and Tide described as "a fountain gush of new ideas. Its wit and style make it compulsively enjoyable reading from cover to cover." From smago@uga.edu Mon Jan 26 13:08:45 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 21:08:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] now out in paperback Message-ID: http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/lev-vygotsky-9781472504920/ [Media of Lev Vygotsky] See larger image Published: 12-18-2014 Format: Paperback Edition: 1st Extent: 184 ISBN: 9781472504920 Imprint: Bloomsbury Academic Series: Bloomsbury Library of Educational Thought Dimensions: 6 1/8" x 9 1/4" List price: $39.95 Qty: 2-3 Days Delivery & Returns Request exam/desk copy (?) For any other requests or concerns, please contact yourAccount Manager. This book is also available in other formats:View formats Tell others about this book ? ? ? ? About Lev Vygotsky Lev Vygotsky, the great Russian psychologist, had a profound influence on educational thought. His work on the perception of art, cultural-historical theory of the mind and the zone of proximal development all had an impact on modern education. This text provides a succinct critical account of Vygotsky's life and work against the background of the political events and social turmoil of that time and analyses his cross-cultural research and the application of his ideas to contemporary education. Ren? van der Veer offers his own interpretation of Vygotsky as both the man and anti-man of educational philosophy, concluding that the strength of Vygotsky's legacy lies in its unfinished, open nature. Table Of Contents Foreword Series Editor's Preface Preface Introduction Part I: Intellectual Biography 1. Lev Vygotsky Part II: Critical Exposition of Vygotsky's Work 2. Early Writings 3. Creating Cultural-historical Theory 4. The Zone of Proximal Development 5. Cross-cultural Education Part III: The Reception, Influence and Relevance of Vygotsky's Work Today 6. Contemporary Educational Research 7. Conclusions Bibliography Name Index Subject Index Reviews "In this concise intellectual biography of L. S. Vygotsky, eminent Vygotskian authority Ren? van der Veer has written an accessible account of the major periods of Vygotsky's career, reviewing the development of Vygotsky's thinking in plain and often witty language, a service of immeasurable importance, given Vygotsky's notorious indifference to his readers' sensibilities... This volume is straightforward and edifying enough for undergraduates, and stimulating and informative enough for those who have been immersed in Vygotskian scholarship for many decades." - Peter Smagorinsky, The University of Georgia, USA, - See more at: http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/lev-vygotsky-9781472504920/#sthash.EP8XDhIv.dpuf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10328 bytes Desc: image001.jpg Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150126/99714e45/attachment.jpg From smago@uga.edu Mon Jan 26 13:32:04 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 21:32:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Van der Veer on Shpet's influence on LSV Message-ID: Van der Veer has a few pages on Shpet in his volume on LSV. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Scanned from a Xerox Multifunction Device.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 33144 bytes Desc: Scanned from a Xerox Multifunction Device.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150126/438091ab/attachment.pdf From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jan 26 14:25:45 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 22:25:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu> Wow! This book looks really cool! Thanks for bringing it to listserv consciousness, Peter! I did not know that Vygotsky was notoriously indifferent to his reader's sensibilities. I do not know what that means? Kind regards, Annalisa http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/lev-vygotsky-9781472504920/ 12-18-2014 ? About Lev Vygotsky Lev Vygotsky, the great Russian psychologist, had a profound influence on educational thought. His work on the perception of art, cultural-historical theory of the mind and the zone of proximal development all had an impact on modern education. This text provides a succinct critical account of Vygotsky's life and work against the background of the political events and social turmoil of that time and analyses his cross-cultural research and the application of his ideas to contemporary education. Ren? van der Veer offers his own interpretation of Vygotsky as both the man and anti-man of educational philosophy, concluding that the strength of Vygotsky's legacy lies in its unfinished, open nature. Table Of Contents Foreword Series Editor's Preface Preface Introduction Part I: Intellectual Biography 1. Lev Vygotsky Part II: Critical Exposition of Vygotsky's Work 2. Early Writings 3. Creating Cultural-historical Theory 4. The Zone of Proximal Development 5. Cross-cultural Education Part III: The Reception, Influence and Relevance of Vygotsky's Work Today 6. Contemporary Educational Research 7. Conclusions Bibliography Name Index Subject Index Reviews "In this concise intellectual biography of L. S. Vygotsky, eminent Vygotskian authority Ren? van der Veer has written an accessible account of the major periods of Vygotsky's career, reviewing the development of Vygotsky's thinking in plain and often witty language, a service of immeasurable importance, given Vygotsky's notorious indifference to his readers' sensibilities... This volume is straightforward and edifying enough for undergraduates, and stimulating and informative enough for those who have been immersed in Vygotskian scholarship for many decades." - Peter Smagorinsky, The University of Georgia, USA, From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jan 26 14:57:34 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 22:57:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co>, Message-ID: <1422313054389.92690@unm.edu> Yes, Martin, The BBC radio show on Phenomenology was really good! Thank you! Unfortunately, as one of the guests pointed out, Heidegger only points to epochs of Western Civilization; I find it interesting that Heidgger himself wanted to "return to the source" and yet could not make a leap to examine Eastern thought, if only to use his methods to reveal a genealogy of thought, or better, a genealogy of beingness. That might be because he didn't know there was a there there, or because he didn't care about Eastern thought, who knows? The notion of "gap" might be similar to Buddhism's "nothingness," if only that it employs negation as Sartre's existentialism does. My scholarship on Buddhism is spotty, but they have a concept of "sunya" (pronounced "shunya") that means "emptiness." Oddly, this word is a Sanskrt that also means "pregnant" or "fullness" and I suppose adherents of Buddhism and Vedic thought have been debating the meaning of sunya since the inception of Buddhism. What I found fascinating is that Heidegger after deconstructing beingness in his own way, was not able to reconstruct it (as the radio guest said, Being and Time was left unfinished). If there is an independent existence in which supports these epochs of beingness, then what is that like and where is it located? For something to change, there must be a witness of change, something that is constant. If human consciousness is indeed changing, then there must be something independent of human consciousness within us to detect this change. Perhaps this is what Heidegger was getting at. My intuition feels this is the case, but I confess that I'm not of the diamond mind with regard to my Heidegger scholarship. In Vedic thought, there is a method of "neti-neti" which is quite easy to do and is a part of inquiry, but only the start of inquiry. The harder part is what might be considered, from a place of not knowing, or a position of ignorance, a reconstruction, and I see that thinkers in the West had/have this same problem. I have learned it isn't a reconstruction. But it's not something I can explain easily, because my understanding is sketchy about it, but I can say without a doubt there is something there worthy of examination. I could make an attempt to explain it, but as you must all know, teaching something is an entirely different task from understanding something. Not being able to teach something doesn't mean one doesn't understand something. So for now I'll just offer that there is something relevant there. That there is a there there, and I'm not talking about Oakland, California. :) You will be shocked to learn that is more I could say, but I will refrain for now. Kind regards, Annalisa From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Mon Jan 26 15:04:34 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 23:04:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: <1422313054389.92690@unm.edu> References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co>, <1422313054389.92690@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4BDDBB79-8A3B-4FE3-BC8B-2938CFD25A62@uniandes.edu.co> Hi Annalisa, If you Google 'Heidegger and Zen' you'll get 360,000 hits! Martin On Jan 26, 2015, at 5:57 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Yes, Martin, > > The BBC radio show on Phenomenology was really good! Thank you! > > Unfortunately, as one of the guests pointed out, Heidegger only points to epochs of Western Civilization; I find it interesting that Heidgger himself wanted to "return to the source" and yet could not make a leap to examine Eastern thought, if only to use his methods to reveal a genealogy of thought, or better, a genealogy of beingness. > > That might be because he didn't know there was a there there, or because he didn't care about Eastern thought, who knows? > > The notion of "gap" might be similar to Buddhism's "nothingness," if only that it employs negation as Sartre's existentialism does. My scholarship on Buddhism is spotty, but they have a concept of "sunya" (pronounced "shunya") that means "emptiness." Oddly, this word is a Sanskrt that also means "pregnant" or "fullness" and I suppose adherents of Buddhism and Vedic thought have been debating the meaning of sunya since the inception of Buddhism. > > What I found fascinating is that Heidegger after deconstructing beingness in his own way, was not able to reconstruct it (as the radio guest said, Being and Time was left unfinished). If there is an independent existence in which supports these epochs of beingness, then what is that like and where is it located? > > For something to change, there must be a witness of change, something that is constant. If human consciousness is indeed changing, then there must be something independent of human consciousness within us to detect this change. Perhaps this is what Heidegger was getting at. My intuition feels this is the case, but I confess that I'm not of the diamond mind with regard to my Heidegger scholarship. > > In Vedic thought, there is a method of "neti-neti" which is quite easy to do and is a part of inquiry, but only the start of inquiry. The harder part is what might be considered, from a place of not knowing, or a position of ignorance, a reconstruction, and I see that thinkers in the West had/have this same problem. I have learned it isn't a reconstruction. But it's not something I can explain easily, because my understanding is sketchy about it, but I can say without a doubt there is something there worthy of examination. I could make an attempt to explain it, but as you must all know, teaching something is an entirely different task from understanding something. Not being able to teach something doesn't mean one doesn't understand something. So for now I'll just offer that there is something relevant there. That there is a there there, and I'm not talking about Oakland, California. :) > > You will be shocked to learn that is more I could say, but I will refrain for now. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp Mon Jan 26 15:29:05 2015 From: vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp (valerie A. Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 08:29:05 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: <1422313054389.92690@unm.edu> References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co>, <1422313054389.92690@unm.edu> Message-ID: <007a01d039bf$e0672fe0$a1358fa0$@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> Annalisa, I have to say something more! Along with the "neti neti" methodology, we can oscillate in the diastolic space afforded by the "tat tvam asi" It's not that, no. Still, well, you are that. The diastolic flickering of life at the interstices is where it's happening. Vandy -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 7:58 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] Yes, Martin, The BBC radio show on Phenomenology was really good! Thank you! Unfortunately, as one of the guests pointed out, Heidegger only points to epochs of Western Civilization; I find it interesting that Heidgger himself wanted to "return to the source" and yet could not make a leap to examine Eastern thought, if only to use his methods to reveal a genealogy of thought, or better, a genealogy of beingness. That might be because he didn't know there was a there there, or because he didn't care about Eastern thought, who knows? The notion of "gap" might be similar to Buddhism's "nothingness," if only that it employs negation as Sartre's existentialism does. My scholarship on Buddhism is spotty, but they have a concept of "sunya" (pronounced "shunya") that means "emptiness." Oddly, this word is a Sanskrt that also means "pregnant" or "fullness" and I suppose adherents of Buddhism and Vedic thought have been debating the meaning of sunya since the inception of Buddhism. What I found fascinating is that Heidegger after deconstructing beingness in his own way, was not able to reconstruct it (as the radio guest said, Being and Time was left unfinished). If there is an independent existence in which supports these epochs of beingness, then what is that like and where is it located? For something to change, there must be a witness of change, something that is constant. If human consciousness is indeed changing, then there must be something independent of human consciousness within us to detect this change. Perhaps this is what Heidegger was getting at. My intuition feels this is the case, but I confess that I'm not of the diamond mind with regard to my Heidegger scholarship. In Vedic thought, there is a method of "neti-neti" which is quite easy to do and is a part of inquiry, but only the start of inquiry. The harder part is what might be considered, from a place of not knowing, or a position of ignorance, a reconstruction, and I see that thinkers in the West had/have this same problem. I have learned it isn't a reconstruction. But it's not something I can explain easily, because my understanding is sketchy about it, but I can say without a doubt there is something there worthy of examination. I could make an attempt to explain it, but as you must all know, teaching something is an entirely different task from understanding something. Not being able to teach something doesn't mean one doesn't understand something. So for now I'll just offer that there is something relevant there. That there is a there there, and I'm not talking about Oakland, California. :) You will be shocked to learn that is more I could say, but I will refrain for now. Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jan 26 16:13:35 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 00:13:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: <007a01d039bf$e0672fe0$a1358fa0$@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co>, <1422313054389.92690@unm.edu>, <007a01d039bf$e0672fe0$a1358fa0$@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: <1422317614621.58304@unm.edu> Vandy, Message received! Ictus and all! Emphasis upon the AND (i.e., not the NOT). :) Annalisa Monday, January 26, 2015 4:29 PM, valerie A. Wilkinson wrote: Annalisa, I have to say something more! Along with the "neti neti" methodology, we can oscillate in the diastolic space afforded by the "tat tvam asi" It's not that, no. Still, well, you are that. The diastolic flickering of life at the interstices is where it's happening. Vandy -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 7:58 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] Yes, Martin, The BBC radio show on Phenomenology was really good! Thank you! Unfortunately, as one of the guests pointed out, Heidegger only points to epochs of Western Civilization; I find it interesting that Heidgger himself wanted to "return to the source" and yet could not make a leap to examine Eastern thought, if only to use his methods to reveal a genealogy of thought, or better, a genealogy of beingness. That might be because he didn't know there was a there there, or because he didn't care about Eastern thought, who knows? The notion of "gap" might be similar to Buddhism's "nothingness," if only that it employs negation as Sartre's existentialism does. My scholarship on Buddhism is spotty, but they have a concept of "sunya" (pronounced "shunya") that means "emptiness." Oddly, this word is a Sanskrt that also means "pregnant" or "fullness" and I suppose adherents of Buddhism and Vedic thought have been debating the meaning of sunya since the inception of Buddhism. What I found fascinating is that Heidegger after deconstructing beingness in his own way, was not able to reconstruct it (as the radio guest said, Being and Time was left unfinished). If there is an independent existence in which supports these epochs of beingness, then what is that like and where is it located? For something to change, there must be a witness of change, something that is constant. If human consciousness is indeed changing, then there must be something independent of human consciousness within us to detect this change. Perhaps this is what Heidegger was getting at. My intuition feels this is the case, but I confess that I'm not of the diamond mind with regard to my Heidegger scholarship. In Vedic thought, there is a method of "neti-neti" which is quite easy to do and is a part of inquiry, but only the start of inquiry. The harder part is what might be considered, from a place of not knowing, or a position of ignorance, a reconstruction, and I see that thinkers in the West had/have this same problem. I have learned it isn't a reconstruction. But it's not something I can explain easily, because my understanding is sketchy about it, but I can say without a doubt there is something there worthy of examination. I could make an attempt to explain it, but as you must all know, teaching something is an entirely different task from understanding something. Not being able to teach something doesn't mean one doesn't understand something. So for now I'll just offer that there is something relevant there. That there is a there there, and I'm not talking about Oakland, California. :) You will be shocked to learn that is more I could say, but I will refrain for now. Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jan 26 16:45:30 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 00:45:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: <4BDDBB79-8A3B-4FE3-BC8B-2938CFD25A62@uniandes.edu.co> References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co>, <1422313054389.92690@unm.edu>, <4BDDBB79-8A3B-4FE3-BC8B-2938CFD25A62@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <1422319529753.28916@unm.edu> Hi Martin! With my curious inner child, using a similar method for "Heidegger and Vedanta," there are 458,000 hits! A gap of about 100,000 hits! :) Kind regards, Annalisa On Monday, January 26, 2015 4:04 PM, Martin John Packer wrote, Hi Annalisa, If you Google 'Heidegger and Zen' you'll get 360,000 hits! Martin On Jan 26, 2015, at 5:57 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Yes, Martin, > > The BBC radio show on Phenomenology was really good! Thank you! > > Unfortunately, as one of the guests pointed out, Heidegger only points to epochs of Western Civilization; I find it interesting that Heidgger himself wanted to "return to the source" and yet could not make a leap to examine Eastern thought, if only to use his methods to reveal a genealogy of thought, or better, a genealogy of beingness. > > That might be because he didn't know there was a there there, or because he didn't care about Eastern thought, who knows? > > The notion of "gap" might be similar to Buddhism's "nothingness," if only that it employs negation as Sartre's existentialism does. My scholarship on Buddhism is spotty, but they have a concept of "sunya" (pronounced "shunya") that means "emptiness." Oddly, this word is a Sanskrt that also means "pregnant" or "fullness" and I suppose adherents of Buddhism and Vedic thought have been debating the meaning of sunya since the inception of Buddhism. > > What I found fascinating is that Heidegger after deconstructing beingness in his own way, was not able to reconstruct it (as the radio guest said, Being and Time was left unfinished). If there is an independent existence in which supports these epochs of beingness, then what is that like and where is it located? > > For something to change, there must be a witness of change, something that is constant. If human consciousness is indeed changing, then there must be something independent of human consciousness within us to detect this change. Perhaps this is what Heidegger was getting at. My intuition feels this is the case, but I confess that I'm not of the diamond mind with regard to my Heidegger scholarship. > > In Vedic thought, there is a method of "neti-neti" which is quite easy to do and is a part of inquiry, but only the start of inquiry. The harder part is what might be considered, from a place of not knowing, or a position of ignorance, a reconstruction, and I see that thinkers in the West had/have this same problem. I have learned it isn't a reconstruction. But it's not something I can explain easily, because my understanding is sketchy about it, but I can say without a doubt there is something there worthy of examination. I could make an attempt to explain it, but as you must all know, teaching something is an entirely different task from understanding something. Not being able to teach something doesn't mean one doesn't understand something. So for now I'll just offer that there is something relevant there. That there is a there there, and I'm not talking about Oakland, California. :) > > You will be shocked to learn that is more I could say, but I will refrain for now. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Jan 26 19:36:30 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 19:36:30 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: <0A796E27-C88F-47FA-BAA2-7EB7D3AF263C@gmail.com> References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> <0A796E27-C88F-47FA-BAA2-7EB7D3AF263C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Henry I am referring to chapter 9 in the book "The Cambridge Companion to Vygotsky" Here is the link to google books https://books.google.ca/books?id=pn3S9TEjvUAC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false Henry, what is "inner form" ? The answer to this is very complicated and includes exploring the relation of "sense and meaning" II would recommend getting the book from a library as every chapter is interesting. Vladimir Zinchenko's chapter I found very informative as Vladimir puts Vygotsky and Shpet into dialogue in a way that offers a close reading of Vygotsky. Today Peter sent a page on this same topic. The sentence "in other words, we are dealing with signs that do not only refer to things but also express some MEANING." (Shpet, 1927) Inner form is the exploration of the "but also express some meaning" There is the external referring to things AND the "internal form" the aspect of sign that expresses the "living form" of word, image, and action. As Martin and Mike have mentioned we are exploring the phenomena that emerges from within the "gap" and does involve imaginal processes. This is my interpretation of "inner form" but I would invite others to correct my [mis]understanding on the way to more clarity Larry On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 9:49 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Larry, > Please help me: > 1) What is ?inner form?? > 2) I can?t find the Zinchenko article in my emails. Was it sent out or a > link to it? > Thanks for your help. > Henry > > > On Jan 26, 2015, at 8:07 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > I would like to share a page from the Zinchenko article which puts in > play > > Vygotsky's and Shpet's understandings of the play of word and thought. It > > may be going to the "heart of the matter" The quote is from page 237 > > > > According to such logic, inner forms do not disappear, > > > > but rather continue to participate in perception, memory, thinking, and > > > > action. > > > > Action, image, word, feeling, thought, and will ? in other words > everything > > > > that is united by the concepts ?mental processes,? ?mental acts,? > > > > or ?forces of the soul? ? are living forms. And because they are living, > > > > they are, therefore, active, meaningful, unfinalized, and restless *. . > . * > > Like > > > > a soul! Each one of them is not ?pure culture.? One form contains in > > > > itself the others. The ancient principle of ?All in one, one in all? is > at > > > > work, and this does not interfere with their relatively autonomous > > existence. > > > > But even while they maintain their autonomy, they ?remember? > > > > their origins and remain heterogeneous forms. > > > > The heterogeneity of images, words, and actions is noted in various > > > > poetic metaphors: ?eyes of the soul,? ?poetic senses,? ?organs of sense > as > > > > theoreticians,? ?kinetic melody,? ?picturesque idea,? ?reasonable eye,? > > > > ?sighted mind,? ?soul in flight? (about ballet), ?shame of sighted > fingers,? > > > > and so forth. The internal forms of action and image have their > > > > own dynamic forms subordinated to the sense of movement or perceptual > > > > (or perhaps thinking) tasks. We know that we can play out action > > > > before action, and after action (if it is not too late!), we can > manipulate > > > > an image, mentally rotate it, and so forth. > > > > The dynamic forms of words, images, and actions enrich each other. > > > > Images and actions, like words, perform operational functions, which, as > > > > in the case of word, may be separated from meaning. Shpet paid attention > > > > to meaning. The instantaneousness of thought may be related to > > > > the simultaneity of image, and perhaps the internal playback of action. > > > > Finally, the interchange of function is possible between word, image, and > > > > action, perhaps, including intellectual functions. Don?t we talk about > > > > visual or musical thinking? Doesn?t the experienced conductor play the > > > > whole symphony in the internal plane in one or two minutes? > > > > I have said enough here to come back to the ?wordless impulse,? or > > > > ?unembodied intention,? to the situation, paradoxically presented by > > > > Potebnya and Bibikhin when they say: ?there is word even where there > > > > is no word.? The word does not die in thought. More likely, thought dies > > > > by drowning in words. After all, truth may be born and regenerated in > > > > discussions, but it may degenerate as well. Perhaps, thought has its own > > > > internal form, and this has to become a subject of serious reflection. > It is > > > > no accident that the beginning of this chapter contains the whole gamut > > > > of answers on what stands behind thought. And if, for example, the > > > > internal form of thought contains images, the internal form of images > > > > contains the word." > > *The cornerstone of Zinchenko's insight is the notion that these > > forms exist and have inner form - "LIVING FORM". -* > > *He constructs [and discovers] that if we reduce or abstract this living > > form we "have" created [or discovered]specimens which we observe as > > spectators. In this move we cut out the living form and are left with a > > dead body* > > *Larry* > > : > > > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 6:15 PM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >> wrote: > > > >> This time, the BBC has come up with quite a good discussion of > >> phenomenology, from Husserl to Heidegger and onwards (though not to > Spet, > >> unfortunately)! > >> > >> > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:19 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Martin, > >>> > >>> I would be interested in the "intro to Husserl" by Shpet, as I have > long > >> been curious how the Husserl got to LSV. > >>> > >>> Is it possible/doable to get some scans of chapter(s) from Appearance & > >> Sense? you know, the ones you believe to be most juicy? > >>> > >>> You may at any time hermeneutically determine what is "most juicy." > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> > >>> Annalisa > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Jan 26 20:00:19 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 20:00:19 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> <0A796E27-C88F-47FA-BAA2-7EB7D3AF263C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Henry, I will share one more paragraph from Zinchenko's chapter to help explore "inner form". "If we use the customary division of mental processes, the substance of sensory forms is important for perception, biodynamic substance is important for action, and affective substance is important for feeling. This is only partially true because all of these substances participate in the formation of image, feeling, and action. Similarly the word is also characterized by the interweaving of substance of sensory forms, biodynamic substance and affective substance. Psychology knows different ways to thought: from action, from image, from word, from feeling. All this heteroglossia is explained by the fact that thought, *like a work of art,* which, of course, is a thought as well, does not have the 'talking footprints' (an expression of N. N. Volkov) that mark the artistic process of creation." (p. 238-239) The "inner form" is the phenomenology of the formation of image, feeling, and action emerging in the "gap" On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 7:36 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Henry > I am referring to chapter 9 in the book "The Cambridge Companion to > Vygotsky" > Here is the link to google books > > > https://books.google.ca/books?id=pn3S9TEjvUAC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false > > Henry, what is "inner form" ? The answer to this is very complicated and > includes exploring the relation of "sense and meaning" II would recommend > getting the book from a library as every chapter is interesting. > Vladimir Zinchenko's chapter I found very informative as Vladimir puts > Vygotsky and Shpet into dialogue in a way that offers a close reading of > Vygotsky. > > Today Peter sent a page on this same topic. The sentence > "in other words, we are dealing with signs that do not only refer to > things but also express some MEANING." (Shpet, 1927) > > Inner form is the exploration of the "but also express some meaning" > > There is the external referring to things AND the "internal form" the > aspect of sign that expresses the "living form" of word, image, and action. > > As Martin and Mike have mentioned we are exploring the phenomena that > emerges from within the "gap" and does involve imaginal processes. > > This is my interpretation of "inner form" but I would invite others to > correct my [mis]understanding on the way to more clarity > Larry > > On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 9:49 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Larry, >> Please help me: >> 1) What is ?inner form?? >> 2) I can?t find the Zinchenko article in my emails. Was it sent out or a >> link to it? >> Thanks for your help. >> Henry >> >> > On Jan 26, 2015, at 8:07 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >> > >> > I would like to share a page from the Zinchenko article which puts in >> play >> > Vygotsky's and Shpet's understandings of the play of word and thought. >> It >> > may be going to the "heart of the matter" The quote is from page 237 >> > >> > According to such logic, inner forms do not disappear, >> > >> > but rather continue to participate in perception, memory, thinking, and >> > >> > action. >> > >> > Action, image, word, feeling, thought, and will ? in other words >> everything >> > >> > that is united by the concepts ?mental processes,? ?mental acts,? >> > >> > or ?forces of the soul? ? are living forms. And because they are living, >> > >> > they are, therefore, active, meaningful, unfinalized, and restless *. . >> . * >> > Like >> > >> > a soul! Each one of them is not ?pure culture.? One form contains in >> > >> > itself the others. The ancient principle of ?All in one, one in all? is >> at >> > >> > work, and this does not interfere with their relatively autonomous >> > existence. >> > >> > But even while they maintain their autonomy, they ?remember? >> > >> > their origins and remain heterogeneous forms. >> > >> > The heterogeneity of images, words, and actions is noted in various >> > >> > poetic metaphors: ?eyes of the soul,? ?poetic senses,? ?organs of sense >> as >> > >> > theoreticians,? ?kinetic melody,? ?picturesque idea,? ?reasonable eye,? >> > >> > ?sighted mind,? ?soul in flight? (about ballet), ?shame of sighted >> fingers,? >> > >> > and so forth. The internal forms of action and image have their >> > >> > own dynamic forms subordinated to the sense of movement or perceptual >> > >> > (or perhaps thinking) tasks. We know that we can play out action >> > >> > before action, and after action (if it is not too late!), we can >> manipulate >> > >> > an image, mentally rotate it, and so forth. >> > >> > The dynamic forms of words, images, and actions enrich each other. >> > >> > Images and actions, like words, perform operational functions, which, as >> > >> > in the case of word, may be separated from meaning. Shpet paid attention >> > >> > to meaning. The instantaneousness of thought may be related to >> > >> > the simultaneity of image, and perhaps the internal playback of action. >> > >> > Finally, the interchange of function is possible between word, image, >> and >> > >> > action, perhaps, including intellectual functions. Don?t we talk about >> > >> > visual or musical thinking? Doesn?t the experienced conductor play the >> > >> > whole symphony in the internal plane in one or two minutes? >> > >> > I have said enough here to come back to the ?wordless impulse,? or >> > >> > ?unembodied intention,? to the situation, paradoxically presented by >> > >> > Potebnya and Bibikhin when they say: ?there is word even where there >> > >> > is no word.? The word does not die in thought. More likely, thought dies >> > >> > by drowning in words. After all, truth may be born and regenerated in >> > >> > discussions, but it may degenerate as well. Perhaps, thought has its own >> > >> > internal form, and this has to become a subject of serious reflection. >> It is >> > >> > no accident that the beginning of this chapter contains the whole gamut >> > >> > of answers on what stands behind thought. And if, for example, the >> > >> > internal form of thought contains images, the internal form of images >> > >> > contains the word." >> > *The cornerstone of Zinchenko's insight is the notion that these >> > forms exist and have inner form - "LIVING FORM". -* >> > *He constructs [and discovers] that if we reduce or abstract this living >> > form we "have" created [or discovered]specimens which we observe as >> > spectators. In this move we cut out the living form and are left with a >> > dead body* >> > *Larry* >> > : >> > >> > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 6:15 PM, Martin John Packer < >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co >> >> wrote: >> > >> >> This time, the BBC has come up with quite a good discussion of >> >> phenomenology, from Husserl to Heidegger and onwards (though not to >> Spet, >> >> unfortunately)! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:19 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hi Martin, >> >>> >> >>> I would be interested in the "intro to Husserl" by Shpet, as I have >> long >> >> been curious how the Husserl got to LSV. >> >>> >> >>> Is it possible/doable to get some scans of chapter(s) from Appearance >> & >> >> Sense? you know, the ones you believe to be most juicy? >> >>> >> >>> You may at any time hermeneutically determine what is "most juicy." >> >>> >> >>> Kind regards, >> >>> >> >>> Annalisa >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Mon Jan 26 21:16:51 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 16:16:51 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] sense, meaning and inner aspect of word In-Reply-To: References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> <0A796E27-C88F-47FA-BAA2-7EB7D3AF263C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54C71F43.1000903@mira.net> Larry, this question (the meaning of "the inner aspect of a word, its meaning" has come up before, and I think not satisfactorily answered. I did a search on "Thinking and Speech" for all the uses of the word "inner". 283 of the 329 of them are "inner speech" and all the others are referring to mental or psychological, and then there's "inner aspect of a word." The related term is "sense," and in Chapter 7, citing Paulhan apparently with approval, he says: "First, in inner speech, we find a predominance of the word?s sense over its meaning. Paulhan significantly advanced the psychological analysis of speech by introducing the distinction between a word?s sense and meaning. A word?s sense is the aggregate of all the psychological facts that arise in our consciousness as a result of the word. Sense is a dynamic, fluid, and complex formation which has several zones that vary in their stability. Meaning is only one of these zones of the sense that the word acquires in the context of speech. It is the most stable, unified, and precise of these zones." So a word's sense is the *totality* of "*all* the psychological facts that arise in our consciousness as a result of the word." But meaning (i.e., I suggest, "sense") "is only *one of these zones" of the sense that the word acquires in the context of speech." So the inner aspect of the word is *part* of the totality of the psychological facts that arise as a result of the word. Specifically, it is what we intend, or "the most stable, unified, and precise of these zones," whereas in uttering the word there are all sorts of associated feelings etc., which are not "meant" but are part of the sense nonetheless. ? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Larry Purss wrote: > Henry > I am referring to chapter 9 in the book "The Cambridge Companion to > Vygotsky" > Here is the link to google books > > https://books.google.ca/books?id=pn3S9TEjvUAC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false > > Henry, what is "inner form" ? The answer to this is very complicated and > includes exploring the relation of "sense and meaning" II would recommend > getting the book from a library as every chapter is interesting. > Vladimir Zinchenko's chapter I found very informative as Vladimir puts > Vygotsky and Shpet into dialogue in a way that offers a close reading of > Vygotsky. > > Today Peter sent a page on this same topic. The sentence > "in other words, we are dealing with signs that do not only refer to things > but also express some MEANING." (Shpet, 1927) > > Inner form is the exploration of the "but also express some meaning" > > There is the external referring to things AND the "internal form" the > aspect of sign that expresses the "living form" of word, image, and action. > > As Martin and Mike have mentioned we are exploring the phenomena that > emerges from within the "gap" and does involve imaginal processes. > > This is my interpretation of "inner form" but I would invite others to > correct my [mis]understanding on the way to more clarity > Larry > > On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 9:49 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > >> Larry, >> Please help me: >> 1) What is ?inner form?? >> 2) I can?t find the Zinchenko article in my emails. Was it sent out or a >> link to it? >> Thanks for your help. >> Henry >> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Jan 26 23:41:12 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 23:41:12 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: sense, meaning and inner aspect of word In-Reply-To: <54C71F43.1000903@mira.net> References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> <0A796E27-C88F-47FA-BAA2-7EB7D3AF263C@gmail.com> <54C71F43.1000903@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, You mention we have not satisfactorily answered the question of the inner form of the word. Are you aware if Vladimir Zinchenko's chapter has been discussed, as he contributes a close reading of Vygotsky which he then expands by bringing in Shpet. Vladimir at the end of his article presents a hypothesis on the "origin" of the internal form of a word, a person, an image, and an action. He states: "My hypothesis is that in the course of lively, active, or contemplative penetration into inner forms of the word, symbol, another person, a work of art, or nature, including one's own nature, a person is building his or her internal form and *expanding the internal space* of his or her soul." Has Vladimir's hypothesis been explored that it is in the penetration into inner forms that the inner forms are being built AND expanding the internal space? Vladimir's chapter is an invitation to consider this hypothesis Larry On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 9:16 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Larry, this question (the meaning of "the inner aspect of a word, its > meaning" has come up before, and I think not satisfactorily answered. > I did a search on "Thinking and Speech" for all the uses of the word > "inner". 283 of the 329 of them are "inner speech" and all the others are > referring to mental or psychological, and then there's "inner aspect of a > word." > The related term is "sense," and in Chapter 7, citing Paulhan apparently > with approval, he says: > > "First, in inner speech, we find a predominance of the word?s sense > over its meaning. Paulhan significantly advanced the psychological > analysis of speech by introducing the distinction between a word?s > sense and meaning. A word?s sense is the aggregate of all the > psychological facts that arise in our consciousness as a result of > the word. Sense is a dynamic, fluid, and complex formation which has > several zones that vary in their stability. Meaning is only one of > these zones of the sense that the word acquires in the context of > speech. It is the most stable, unified, and precise of these zones." > > So a word's sense is the *totality* of "*all* the psychological facts that > arise in our consciousness as a result of the word." > But meaning (i.e., I suggest, "sense") "is only *one of these zones" of > the sense that the word acquires in the context of speech." > So the inner aspect of the word is *part* of the totality of the > psychological facts that arise as a result of the word. > Specifically, it is what we intend, or "the most stable, unified, and > precise of these zones," whereas in uttering the word there are all sorts > of associated feelings etc., which are not "meant" but are part of the > sense nonetheless. > > ? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Larry Purss wrote: > >> Henry >> I am referring to chapter 9 in the book "The Cambridge Companion to >> Vygotsky" >> Here is the link to google books >> >> https://books.google.ca/books?id=pn3S9TEjvUAC&printsec= >> frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> Henry, what is "inner form" ? The answer to this is very complicated and >> includes exploring the relation of "sense and meaning" II would recommend >> getting the book from a library as every chapter is interesting. >> Vladimir Zinchenko's chapter I found very informative as Vladimir puts >> Vygotsky and Shpet into dialogue in a way that offers a close reading of >> Vygotsky. >> >> Today Peter sent a page on this same topic. The sentence >> "in other words, we are dealing with signs that do not only refer to >> things >> but also express some MEANING." (Shpet, 1927) >> >> Inner form is the exploration of the "but also express some meaning" >> >> There is the external referring to things AND the "internal form" the >> aspect of sign that expresses the "living form" of word, image, and >> action. >> >> As Martin and Mike have mentioned we are exploring the phenomena that >> emerges from within the "gap" and does involve imaginal processes. >> >> This is my interpretation of "inner form" but I would invite others to >> correct my [mis]understanding on the way to more clarity >> Larry >> >> On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 9:49 AM, HENRY SHONERD >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Larry, >>> Please help me: >>> 1) What is ?inner form?? >>> 2) I can?t find the Zinchenko article in my emails. Was it sent out or a >>> link to it? >>> Thanks for your help. >>> Henry >>> >>> >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Tue Jan 27 00:05:57 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 19:05:57 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: sense, meaning and inner aspect of word In-Reply-To: References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> <0A796E27-C88F-47FA-BAA2-7EB7D3AF263C@gmail.com> <54C71F43.1000903@mira.net> Message-ID: <54C746E5.9010103@mira.net> I guess I should speak for myself. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Larry Purss wrote: > Andy, > You mention we have not satisfactorily answered the question of the > inner form of the word. > Are you aware if Vladimir Zinchenko's chapter has been discussed, as > he contributes a close reading of Vygotsky which he then expands by > bringing in Shpet. > > Vladimir at the end of his article presents a hypothesis on the > "origin" of the internal form of a word, a person, an image, and an > action. He states: > > "My hypothesis is that in the course of lively, active, or > contemplative penetration into inner forms of the word, symbol, > another person, a work of art, or nature, including one's own nature, > a person is building his or her internal form and *expanding the > internal space* of his or her soul." > > Has Vladimir's hypothesis been explored that it is in the penetration > into inner forms that the inner forms are being built AND expanding > the internal space? > > Vladimir's chapter is an invitation to consider this hypothesis > > Larry > > > > On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 9:16 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Larry, this question (the meaning of "the inner aspect of a word, > its meaning" has come up before, and I think not satisfactorily > answered. > I did a search on "Thinking and Speech" for all the uses of the > word "inner". 283 of the 329 of them are "inner speech" and all > the others are referring to mental or psychological, and then > there's "inner aspect of a word." > The related term is "sense," and in Chapter 7, citing Paulhan > apparently with approval, he says: > > "First, in inner speech, we find a predominance of the word?s sense > over its meaning. Paulhan significantly advanced the psychological > analysis of speech by introducing the distinction between a word?s > sense and meaning. A word?s sense is the aggregate of all the > psychological facts that arise in our consciousness as a result of > the word. Sense is a dynamic, fluid, and complex formation > which has > several zones that vary in their stability. Meaning is only one of > these zones of the sense that the word acquires in the context of > speech. It is the most stable, unified, and precise of these > zones." > > So a word's sense is the *totality* of "*all* the psychological > facts that arise in our consciousness as a result of the word." > But meaning (i.e., I suggest, "sense") "is only *one of these > zones" of the sense that the word acquires in the context of speech." > So the inner aspect of the word is *part* of the totality of the > psychological facts that arise as a result of the word. > Specifically, it is what we intend, or "the most stable, unified, > and precise of these zones," whereas in uttering the word there > are all sorts of associated feelings etc., which are not "meant" > but are part of the sense nonetheless. > > ? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > Larry Purss wrote: > > Henry > I am referring to chapter 9 in the book "The Cambridge > Companion to > Vygotsky" > Here is the link to google books > > https://books.google.ca/books?id=pn3S9TEjvUAC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false > > > Henry, what is "inner form" ? The answer to this is very > complicated and > includes exploring the relation of "sense and meaning" II > would recommend > getting the book from a library as every chapter is interesting. > Vladimir Zinchenko's chapter I found very informative as > Vladimir puts > Vygotsky and Shpet into dialogue in a way that offers a close > reading of > Vygotsky. > > Today Peter sent a page on this same topic. The sentence > "in other words, we are dealing with signs that do not only > refer to things > but also express some MEANING." (Shpet, 1927) > > Inner form is the exploration of the "but also express some > meaning" > > There is the external referring to things AND the "internal > form" the > aspect of sign that expresses the "living form" of word, > image, and action. > > As Martin and Mike have mentioned we are exploring the > phenomena that > emerges from within the "gap" and does involve imaginal processes. > > This is my interpretation of "inner form" but I would invite > others to > correct my [mis]understanding on the way to more clarity > Larry > > On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 9:49 AM, HENRY SHONERD > > wrote: > > > > Larry, > Please help me: > 1) What is ?inner form?? > 2) I can?t find the Zinchenko article in my emails. Was it > sent out or a > link to it? > Thanks for your help. > Henry > > > > > From smago@uga.edu Tue Jan 27 03:34:40 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:34:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback In-Reply-To: <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu> References: <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, my apologies for recycling things I've already written. Perhaps the following helps with your question. From Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Vygotsky and literacy research: A methodological framework. Boston: Sense. Pp. 4-6 Problems in Translation Reading extensively in Vygotskian scholarship seems critical to referencing him knowledgeably, given the challenges that Vygotsky's writing presents to the 21st Century reader. Among these challenges is the problem that most of his readers, particularly in North America, encounter him through translation. In Daniels, Cole, and Wertsch's (2007) collection of international papers outlining a Vygotskian perspective, a number of the contributors are fluent speakers of Russian. However, even those whom I consider to be conversant with Vygotsky's original writing-those whose publications are rife with references to works of Vygotsky that are only available in Russian-are cautious about their grasp of both the language and the concepts. Michael Cole, who has spoken Russian for many decades, who lived in the for-mer Soviet Union during his internship with A. R. Luria, who served as co-editor and co-translator of Mind in Society (Vygotsky, 1978), whose leadership in the Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition has helped to shape worldwide extensions of Russian psychology, who was the founding editor of the journal Mind, Culture, and Activity, and who has produced a number of foundational works in the Vygotskian tradition, wrote in response to my inquiry that "I have been writing jointly with [Russian Natalia Gajdamaschko] precisely because I feel so strongly the need for more than simple translation help in dealing with the meta-psychology and national ethos that is the relevant context for understanding the local words" (M. Cole, personal communication). James Wertsch, who has spent considerable time in the Soviet Union, Russia, and many former Soviet states where Russian remains the lingua franca, and who has translated Vygotsky into English (e.g., Wertsch, 1981), also backs off from claims that his knowledge of Russian could be termed fluent (J. Wertsch, personal communication). As someone whose only linkage to Vygotsky's Byelorussian roots comes through my grandparents' origins in Vygotsky's hometown of Gomel, I read the qualifiers by Cole and Wertsch as cautions regarding any claims to understanding Vygotsky for those of us who speak no Russian at all. I rely on the translations of others, including those who express limited confidence in their own fluency. Most North American readers face this same problem, and so the challenges of reading a major thinker only in translation-especially translation that spans alphabets, cultures, concepts, and other formidable barriers-are thus worth reviewing here. At present there are abundant Vygotskian texts available to the English lan-guage reader: six volumes of collected works in publication, additional books from his oeuvre available (e.g., Vygotsky, 1971, 1997; Vygotsky & Luria, 1993), key texts subjected to multiple translations, and a major project now underway in Russia to make his entire output available to English-speaking readers. Yet Vygotsky remains a complex figure and difficult scholar to grasp, and for a variety of reasons. In his "Translator's Foreword and Acknowledgements" to The Collected Works, Volume 3, Van der Veer says, "I have not attempted to improve Vygotsky's style of writing although it was at times difficult to refrain from doing so. It is clear that Vygotsky . . . never rewrote a text for the sake of improving its style and readability. Hence the redundancy, the difficulty to follow the thread of his argument, the awkward sentences, etc." (p. v). Meshcheryakov (2007) notes that Vygotsky produced 190 works within the ten-year span that comprised his career, many of which "were written very quickly, in almost telegraphic style. Some works remain unfinished. It is certainly possible that some of the works that were published posthumously were not yet intended for publication" (p. 155). Daniels et al. (2007) assert that "It is difficult to reconcile some of the writing from the early 1920s with that which was produced during the last 2 years of his life. These rapid changes, coupled with the fact that his work was not published in chronological order, make synthetic summaries of his work difficult" (p. 2). So in addition to the difficulty of the ideas Vygotsky produced, his rendering of them into text made for challenging reading, no matter how well-prepared the reader is. Even those with extraordinary fluency in Vygotsky's work typically consult others to help with their understanding. Van der Veer, a native of the Netherlands, relates in his translator's introduction to the Collected Works, Volume 3 that "After I had translated the whole volume [from Russian to English], I carefully checked my translation against the German and Spanish translations of the same volume" (1997, p. v). With five languages at play in his effort to translate Vygotsky's al-ready-difficult prose and concepts (German, Spanish, Russian, English, and Dutch), Van der Veer further enlisted feedback from a host of colleagues (mostly European) in order to amend Vygotsky's "sloppy" approach to citation by includ-ing appropriate references and footnotes to provide depth, detail, and clarification to the text. Van der Veer's (1997) meticulous approach to rendering Vygotsky into English suggests one key lesson to be learned from reading Vygotsky with any insight: that claims to understanding or implementing ideas must be undertaken with care and caution. I refer again to Van der Veer's work in underscoring the importance of reading more than just excerpts (or summaries of excerpts, or summaries of those summaries in textbooks) from Mind in Society in claiming a Vygotskian perspec-tive. In his review of an Italian translation of Thinking and Speech that post-dates any version of the text available in English, Van der Veer makes the remarkable point that Unfortunately, neither in English nor in any other language has a reliable repub-lication of Thought and Language been available. Leaving aside the questions that can be raised concerning the original Soviet 1934 edition (Vygotsky did not see the book in print and the editor, Kolbanovsky, changed some of the wordings to make the book more palatable for the ideological leaders), we know that the later 1956 and 1982 Soviet editions were marred by many mistakes and plain falsifications. All of the existing translations into English, or any other language, took these unreliable later editions as their point of departure. As a result, readers unable to read Russian or find a copy of the original 1934 edition have had, until now, no authoritative text of Thought and Language available. (p. 83; cf. van der Veer, 1987, for a critical review of Kozulin's 1986 translation of Thought and Language, which to van der Veer is more properly translated as Thinking and Speech) I am impressed that Van der Veer is now sufficiently fluent in at least six lan-guages to read Vygotsky and then make this judgment; I am alarmed that he nonetheless states that "Vygotsky obviously preferred principled opponents, such as Pavlov, who made their own original contribution to science and invented their own scientific vocabulary to mediocre university professors, such as the present writer, who can only summarize what others have discovered" (2007, p. 37). If I'm not sufficiently daunted to learn that Van der Veer regards himself as a relative mediocrity, I cringe yet further when I realize that even though I've been referencing Vygotsky in my own work since the early 1990s, I probably am basing my understanding on inaccurate and incomplete translations. It becomes important, then, for me and no doubt others to engage with the work of Vygotskian scholars who have read his Russian texts in order to develop a clearer grasp of the ideas that I believe I am drawing on. If problems of direct translation of Vygotsky's work were not enough of a chal-lenge, the fact that he did not necessarily pen his own texts presents another. His magnum opus, Thinking and Speech, was published in 1934, the year he died; he dictated sections from his sickbed, no doubt contributing to the text's notorious difficulty (Zinchenko, 2007). Further, some of what is published under his name is taken from his student's lecture notes or other stenographic records, undoubtedly with gaps in transcription and reformulation in expression (e.g., a set of lectures included in the Collected Works, Volume 5: "The Crisis of the First Year," "Early Childhood," "The Crisis at Age Three," "The Crisis at Age Seven"; Vygotsky, 1998b). Making definitive claims, as do Gredler and Shields (2004), regarding what Vygotsky did and did not say, is thus a precarious undertaking that even the most reputable U. S. Vygotskian scholars should attempt with considerable caution and temperance. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Monday, January 26, 2015 5:26 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback Wow! This book looks really cool! Thanks for bringing it to listserv consciousness, Peter! I did not know that Vygotsky was notoriously indifferent to his reader's sensibilities. I do not know what that means? Kind regards, Annalisa http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/lev-vygotsky-9781472504920/ 12-18-2014 ? About Lev Vygotsky Lev Vygotsky, the great Russian psychologist, had a profound influence on educational thought. His work on the perception of art, cultural-historical theory of the mind and the zone of proximal development all had an impact on modern education. This text provides a succinct critical account of Vygotsky's life and work against the background of the political events and social turmoil of that time and analyses his cross-cultural research and the application of his ideas to contemporary education. Ren? van der Veer offers his own interpretation of Vygotsky as both the man and anti-man of educational philosophy, concluding that the strength of Vygotsky's legacy lies in its unfinished, open nature. Table Of Contents Foreword Series Editor's Preface Preface Introduction Part I: Intellectual Biography 1. Lev Vygotsky Part II: Critical Exposition of Vygotsky's Work 2. Early Writings 3. Creating Cultural-historical Theory 4. The Zone of Proximal Development 5. Cross-cultural Education Part III: The Reception, Influence and Relevance of Vygotsky's Work Today 6. Contemporary Educational Research 7. Conclusions Bibliography Name Index Subject Index Reviews "In this concise intellectual biography of L. S. Vygotsky, eminent Vygotskian authority Ren? van der Veer has written an accessible account of the major periods of Vygotsky's career, reviewing the development of Vygotsky's thinking in plain and often witty language, a service of immeasurable importance, given Vygotsky's notorious indifference to his readers' sensibilities... This volume is straightforward and edifying enough for undergraduates, and stimulating and informative enough for those who have been immersed in Vygotskian scholarship for many decades." - Peter Smagorinsky, The University of Georgia, USA, From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Jan 27 07:54:17 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 07:54:17 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: sense, meaning and inner aspect of word In-Reply-To: <54C746E5.9010103@mira.net> References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> <0A796E27-C88F-47FA-BAA2-7EB7D3AF263C@gmail.com> <54C71F43.1000903@mira.net> <54C746E5.9010103@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, I am making an assumption since Vladimir Zinchenko's approach to the relation of thought and language was included in a Cambridge Companion to Vygotsky that his approach is valid to present and "get behind" its assumptions. On the second page of this article says thinking is the movement of thought , but one should not underestimate the complexity of it. Thought is sometimes manifested in a word, sometimes in an image, sometimes in an action. as well as manifesting in artifacts and aesthetic arts. Vladimir suggests this elusive nature of thought is the most interesting quality of thought.. Vladimir suggests what thought 'is' and how it emerges are not the most central questions. For Vladimir the *intention to learn and see something standing behind *a thought is central as this question [what is behind a thought] is an indication of a 'genuine' thought. Focussing on just what comes into view in a thought is not the same quest as approaching what can be perceived and conceived behind the thought. To see behind a thought is a reflection on thought. Vladimir then goes on and offers how others have answered what is 'behind' thought James [stream of raw sensory experience. Sechenov [a background of individual action. Bion [frustration born of ignorance] Mamardashvili [personal feelings]. Einstein [visual images and muscular sensations] Claparede [saw silence] Hadamand [the word is absolutely absent from my mind] Rilke [poetically saw wise men turn their lips into hearing] Bely [saw movement and rhythm] Bahktin [saw emotion and will and intonation and he saw another person as living events] Vygotsky saw thought as a unity of communication and generalization] Vladimir offers this extensive list to prepare the reader to follow him as he makes his case for exploring the "oscillation" of thought using the metaphor of Mobius strip] as thought oscillating through the external and inner forms of thought. I would suggest that Vladimir is hypothesizing that behind the ineer is the external AND behind the external is the inner forms. He further suggests this exploration "opens a space" [internal and external] for freedom and creativity. Andy, if Vladimir's hypothesis is one chapter included in the Cambridge Companion to Vygotsky, I believed it relevant to include in CHAT. Meaning and sense are as complex as "word" and "thought" and Vladmir offers an approach within a tradition that includes Vygotsky and Shpet in the exploration of the 'relation' between thought and language. Larry On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 12:05 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > I guess I should speak for myself. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Larry Purss wrote: > >> Andy, >> You mention we have not satisfactorily answered the question of the >> inner form of the word. Are you aware if Vladimir Zinchenko's chapter has >> been discussed, as he contributes a close reading of Vygotsky which he then >> expands by bringing in Shpet. >> >> Vladimir at the end of his article presents a hypothesis on the "origin" >> of the internal form of a word, a person, an image, and an action. He >> states: >> >> "My hypothesis is that in the course of lively, active, or contemplative >> penetration into inner forms of the word, symbol, another person, a work of >> art, or nature, including one's own nature, a person is building his or her >> internal form and *expanding the internal space* of his or her soul." >> >> Has Vladimir's hypothesis been explored that it is in the penetration >> into inner forms that the inner forms are being built AND expanding the >> internal space? >> >> Vladimir's chapter is an invitation to consider this hypothesis >> >> Larry >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 9:16 PM, Andy Blunden > ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> Larry, this question (the meaning of "the inner aspect of a word, >> its meaning" has come up before, and I think not satisfactorily >> answered. >> I did a search on "Thinking and Speech" for all the uses of the >> word "inner". 283 of the 329 of them are "inner speech" and all >> the others are referring to mental or psychological, and then >> there's "inner aspect of a word." >> The related term is "sense," and in Chapter 7, citing Paulhan >> apparently with approval, he says: >> >> "First, in inner speech, we find a predominance of the word?s sense >> over its meaning. Paulhan significantly advanced the psychological >> analysis of speech by introducing the distinction between a word?s >> sense and meaning. A word?s sense is the aggregate of all the >> psychological facts that arise in our consciousness as a result of >> the word. Sense is a dynamic, fluid, and complex formation >> which has >> several zones that vary in their stability. Meaning is only one of >> these zones of the sense that the word acquires in the context of >> speech. It is the most stable, unified, and precise of these >> zones." >> >> So a word's sense is the *totality* of "*all* the psychological >> facts that arise in our consciousness as a result of the word." >> But meaning (i.e., I suggest, "sense") "is only *one of these >> zones" of the sense that the word acquires in the context of speech." >> So the inner aspect of the word is *part* of the totality of the >> psychological facts that arise as a result of the word. >> Specifically, it is what we intend, or "the most stable, unified, >> and precise of these zones," whereas in uttering the word there >> are all sorts of associated feelings etc., which are not "meant" >> but are part of the sense nonetheless. >> >> ? >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> Larry Purss wrote: >> >> Henry >> I am referring to chapter 9 in the book "The Cambridge >> Companion to >> Vygotsky" >> Here is the link to google books >> >> https://books.google.ca/books?id=pn3S9TEjvUAC&printsec= >> frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false >> > printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false> >> >> Henry, what is "inner form" ? The answer to this is very >> complicated and >> includes exploring the relation of "sense and meaning" II >> would recommend >> getting the book from a library as every chapter is interesting. >> Vladimir Zinchenko's chapter I found very informative as >> Vladimir puts >> Vygotsky and Shpet into dialogue in a way that offers a close >> reading of >> Vygotsky. >> >> Today Peter sent a page on this same topic. The sentence >> "in other words, we are dealing with signs that do not only >> refer to things >> but also express some MEANING." (Shpet, 1927) >> >> Inner form is the exploration of the "but also express some >> meaning" >> >> There is the external referring to things AND the "internal >> form" the >> aspect of sign that expresses the "living form" of word, >> image, and action. >> >> As Martin and Mike have mentioned we are exploring the >> phenomena that >> emerges from within the "gap" and does involve imaginal processes. >> >> This is my interpretation of "inner form" but I would invite >> others to >> correct my [mis]understanding on the way to more clarity >> Larry >> >> On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 9:49 AM, HENRY SHONERD >> > wrote: >> >> >> Larry, >> Please help me: >> 1) What is ?inner form?? >> 2) I can?t find the Zinchenko article in my emails. Was it >> sent out or a >> link to it? >> Thanks for your help. >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Jan 27 09:24:57 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 17:24:57 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 25 January 2015 at 16:51, mike cole wrote: > I found the mobius strip metaphor a lot more understandable than the > "yesterday has not > yet been born" metaphor, Larry. From the former I kept look for the > sense/meaning distinction because it seemed as if needed to be there. Still > mulling that idea over. > I read this as the personal meaning (motive) generating the cognitive work in which the logical-semantic meaning is deployed. Zinchenko seems to be suggesting that the discovery of the semantic meaning helps to realise the personal meaning, i.e. that personal meaning follows the same reflexivity. Huw > mike > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 8:35 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > I have imaginally been walking with Zinchenko who is telling me about his > > chats with Schpet and Vygotsky. > > Zinchenko is engaged in rehabilitating the centrality of the meaning > > of "meaning" to processes of phenomenological historical understanding, > and > > interpretation. His conversation is in the form of a rejoinder [or > > joining back] with Vygotsky and Schpet with who he wants to bring out > their > > mutually shared thesis on the relation of thought and word. > > Zinchenko uses metaphors to poetically embody his attempt to have > > "meanings" more modest place with Vygotsky take on a more prominent and > > central quality. > > > > Zinchenko wrote: > > "A good image for the mutual relationships of meaning and sense is a > Mobius > > strip. In the process of understanding or thinking, we encounter > > oppositely encountered *acts of making sense of meanings and sense giving > > meaningful signs to senses *[authors emphasis], which are transformed > into > > each other. In Russian, 'meaning' ['znachenie'] and 'sign' ['znak'] have > a > > common root and, hence, the untranslated italicized phrase sounds like a > > Russian pun. On the outer side of the strip may be meaning, which is > > transformed into sense as a result of the act of making sense, and this > > *becomes* the internal side of the *same* strip. Assigning a meaningful > > sign to sense makes an *analogous *transformation. Anyway, it was > highly > > productive for Vygotsky to change the *focus* from *'meaning*' to sense. > > *Such > > a change *brings his views closer to those of Shpet. [page 228] > > > > I will pause here but want to point out how the metaphor of the Mobius > > strip has a similar quality to the hermeneutical movement of "fusions of > > horizons" > > > > Larry > > > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > > > Thank you, Martin! > > > Henry > > > > > > > On Jan 24, 2015, at 1:49 PM, Martin John Packer < > > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > This is the information I have, Henry. > > > > > > > > Freiberger-Sheikholeslami, E. (1984). Gustav G. Shpet: Hermeneutical > > > logic and philosophical semiotics. In J. Deely (Ed.), Semiotics 1984 > (pp. > > > 381-391). Bloomington: Semiotic Society of America. > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Martin, > > > >> Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings > and > > > dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and his > > > context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the eyes of > > > hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes article was > > > written? > > > >> Henry > > > >> > > > >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer < > > > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as > Larry > > > points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a little > > > background: > > > >>> > > > >>> Martin > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss > > > wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. > > > >>>> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that > > Shpet > > > and > > > >>>> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". > > > >>>> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet > > > disagreed. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph > > > >>>> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the > > Approaches > > > of L. > > > >>>> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain [which > I > > > >>>> associated with the other thread on rain] > > > >>>> > > > >>>> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there > is a > > > >>>> long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is hard to > > > >>>> overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with Aleksandr > > > Potebnya. > > > >>>> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the > various > > > >>>> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their > preference > > > to the > > > >>>> word, although they understood it differently. Let us start from > > > >>>> Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in > > thought > > > is > > > >>>> successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a > thought > > > with a > > > >>>> cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition > from > > > >>>> thought to language is a very complicated process of > *dismemberment* > > > of a > > > >>>> thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, Vygotsky > > > wrote, > > > >>>> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the > > > motivation of > > > >>>> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If something > > > can *pour > > > >>>> itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can > > > understand the > > > >>>> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is > > *expressed > > > *in a > > > >>>> word" [emphasis in the original] > > > >>>> > > > >>>> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation > > > *behind the > > > >>>> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and > > > language as > > > >>>> oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place the > > > >>>> approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present them > > as > > > >>>> mutually complimentary approaches. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of > > > >>>> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within > words. > > > >>>> Polyphonic notions > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Jan 27 09:33:27 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:33:27 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: sense, meaning and inner aspect of word In-Reply-To: References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> <0A796E27-C88F-47FA-BAA2-7EB7D3AF263C@gmail.com> <54C71F43.1000903@mira.net> <54C746E5.9010103@mira.net> Message-ID: Larry and Andy, Sense and meaning give me a way to better understand the tension between creativity and convention in language use. I wonder if that tension is, phenomenologically speaking, in the third space. Here?s a quote from Cognitive Linguistics, An Introduction (2006), eds. Evans and Green: "Language represents a limited and indeed limiting system for the expression of thought?language merely provides prompts for the construction of a conceptualization far richer and more elaborate than the minimal meanings provided by language?Accordingly, what language encodes is not thought in its complex entirety, but instead rudimentary instructions to the conceptual system to access or create rich and elaborate ideas.? Convention is essential for commmunication, but it is terribly open ended. And contextual. Mind boggling. Keep up the good work. I?m listening. Henry > On Jan 27, 2015, at 8:54 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > Andy, > I am making an assumption since Vladimir Zinchenko's approach to the > relation of thought and language was included in a Cambridge Companion to > Vygotsky that his approach is valid to present and "get behind" its > assumptions. > > On the second page of this article says thinking is the movement of thought > , but one should not underestimate the complexity of it. Thought is > sometimes manifested in a word, sometimes in an image, sometimes in an > action. as well as manifesting in artifacts and aesthetic arts. > > Vladimir suggests this elusive nature of thought is the most interesting > quality of thought.. Vladimir suggests what thought 'is' and how it emerges > are not the most central questions. For Vladimir the *intention to learn > and see something standing behind *a thought is central as this question > [what is behind a thought] is an indication of a 'genuine' thought. > Focussing on just what comes into view in a thought is not the same quest > as approaching what can be perceived and conceived behind the thought. > > To see behind a thought is a reflection on thought. Vladimir then goes on > and offers how others have answered what is 'behind' thought James [stream > of raw sensory experience. > Sechenov [a background of individual action. Bion [frustration born of > ignorance] Mamardashvili [personal feelings]. Einstein [visual images and > muscular sensations] Claparede [saw silence] Hadamand [the word is > absolutely absent from my mind] Rilke [poetically saw wise men turn their > lips into hearing] Bely [saw movement and rhythm] Bahktin [saw emotion > and will and intonation and he saw another person as living events] > Vygotsky saw thought as a unity of communication and generalization] > > Vladimir offers this extensive list to prepare the reader to follow him as > he makes his case for exploring the "oscillation" of thought using the > metaphor of Mobius strip] as thought oscillating through the external and > inner forms of thought. I would suggest that Vladimir is hypothesizing that > behind the ineer is the external AND behind the external is the inner > forms. He further suggests this exploration "opens a space" [internal and > external] for freedom and creativity. > > Andy, if Vladimir's hypothesis is one chapter included in the Cambridge > Companion to Vygotsky, I believed it relevant to include in CHAT. Meaning > and sense are as complex as "word" and "thought" and Vladmir offers an > approach within a tradition that includes Vygotsky and Shpet in the > exploration of the 'relation' between thought and language. > > Larry > > > > On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 12:05 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> I guess I should speak for myself. >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> Larry Purss wrote: >> >>> Andy, >>> You mention we have not satisfactorily answered the question of the >>> inner form of the word. Are you aware if Vladimir Zinchenko's chapter has >>> been discussed, as he contributes a close reading of Vygotsky which he then >>> expands by bringing in Shpet. >>> >>> Vladimir at the end of his article presents a hypothesis on the "origin" >>> of the internal form of a word, a person, an image, and an action. He >>> states: >>> >>> "My hypothesis is that in the course of lively, active, or contemplative >>> penetration into inner forms of the word, symbol, another person, a work of >>> art, or nature, including one's own nature, a person is building his or her >>> internal form and *expanding the internal space* of his or her soul." >>> >>> Has Vladimir's hypothesis been explored that it is in the penetration >>> into inner forms that the inner forms are being built AND expanding the >>> internal space? >>> >>> Vladimir's chapter is an invitation to consider this hypothesis >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 9:16 PM, Andy Blunden >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >>> >>> Larry, this question (the meaning of "the inner aspect of a word, >>> its meaning" has come up before, and I think not satisfactorily >>> answered. >>> I did a search on "Thinking and Speech" for all the uses of the >>> word "inner". 283 of the 329 of them are "inner speech" and all >>> the others are referring to mental or psychological, and then >>> there's "inner aspect of a word." >>> The related term is "sense," and in Chapter 7, citing Paulhan >>> apparently with approval, he says: >>> >>> "First, in inner speech, we find a predominance of the word?s sense >>> over its meaning. Paulhan significantly advanced the psychological >>> analysis of speech by introducing the distinction between a word?s >>> sense and meaning. A word?s sense is the aggregate of all the >>> psychological facts that arise in our consciousness as a result of >>> the word. Sense is a dynamic, fluid, and complex formation >>> which has >>> several zones that vary in their stability. Meaning is only one of >>> these zones of the sense that the word acquires in the context of >>> speech. It is the most stable, unified, and precise of these >>> zones." >>> >>> So a word's sense is the *totality* of "*all* the psychological >>> facts that arise in our consciousness as a result of the word." >>> But meaning (i.e., I suggest, "sense") "is only *one of these >>> zones" of the sense that the word acquires in the context of speech." >>> So the inner aspect of the word is *part* of the totality of the >>> psychological facts that arise as a result of the word. >>> Specifically, it is what we intend, or "the most stable, unified, >>> and precise of these zones," whereas in uttering the word there >>> are all sorts of associated feelings etc., which are not "meant" >>> but are part of the sense nonetheless. >>> >>> ? >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>> Henry >>> I am referring to chapter 9 in the book "The Cambridge >>> Companion to >>> Vygotsky" >>> Here is the link to google books >>> >>> https://books.google.ca/books?id=pn3S9TEjvUAC&printsec= >>> frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >> printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false> >>> >>> Henry, what is "inner form" ? The answer to this is very >>> complicated and >>> includes exploring the relation of "sense and meaning" II >>> would recommend >>> getting the book from a library as every chapter is interesting. >>> Vladimir Zinchenko's chapter I found very informative as >>> Vladimir puts >>> Vygotsky and Shpet into dialogue in a way that offers a close >>> reading of >>> Vygotsky. >>> >>> Today Peter sent a page on this same topic. The sentence >>> "in other words, we are dealing with signs that do not only >>> refer to things >>> but also express some MEANING." (Shpet, 1927) >>> >>> Inner form is the exploration of the "but also express some >>> meaning" >>> >>> There is the external referring to things AND the "internal >>> form" the >>> aspect of sign that expresses the "living form" of word, >>> image, and action. >>> >>> As Martin and Mike have mentioned we are exploring the >>> phenomena that >>> emerges from within the "gap" and does involve imaginal processes. >>> >>> This is my interpretation of "inner form" but I would invite >>> others to >>> correct my [mis]understanding on the way to more clarity >>> Larry >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 9:49 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> Larry, >>> Please help me: >>> 1) What is ?inner form?? >>> 2) I can?t find the Zinchenko article in my emails. Was it >>> sent out or a >>> link to it? >>> Thanks for your help. >>> Henry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Tue Jan 27 09:37:29 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:37:29 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback In-Reply-To: References: , <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu>, Message-ID: Message from Francine Smolucha: Dear Peter and XMCA colleagues, I must respectively disagree with the Peter's argument that understanding Vygotsky's writings (akin to interpreting them) has to be left to elite Vygotsky translators (like Van de Veer). I prefer an approach that views Vygotsky for Everyman (and Woman). An analogy can be found with the way anybody can find inspirational quotes from any great literature such as the Bible or the U.S. Constitution/Declaration of Independence. Of course there are those Biblical scholars, and scholars of Constitutional Law, who would look down their noses at the common man's understanding of passages from these works. It comes down to the difference between analysis and inspiration. My pioneering translations of Vygotsky's three papers on the development of imagination and creativity were done in the 1980's on my own. I was a graduate student and community college professor (low status in academia). My interpretations stand on their own and are still viable today. For the record, I have found that the interpretations of Vygotsky advanced by Van de Veer, Valsinar, Wertsch, Daniels, (and yes even Michael Cole) have been shaped by Leontiev's Activity Theory and the Soviet era Russian psychologists like Vladimir Zinchenko. There are a couple Russian psychologists who have concurred with my assessment - Elena Budrova told me that my understanding was consistent with the El'konin approach to Vygotsky. [I have also read El'konin's Psychology of Play in Russian - there is no published English translation] The El'Konin approach was suppressed in the Soviet Union by the establishment psychologists of Activity Theory. Also, Tatiana Akhutina and I found we shared an understanding of Vygotsky based on our shared appreciation of Luria's work on the prefrontal cortex. I do agree with Peter in that scholarly works based on a Vygotskian approach need to have citations, and a bibliography from several of Vygotsky's works (even better citing Russian publications of Vygotsky's works.) This further establishes the scholarly authority of the interpretation. Merely citing passages from Mind in Society is no longer adequate. > From: smago@uga.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:34:40 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback > > Annalisa, my apologies for recycling things I've already written. Perhaps the following helps with your question. From Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Vygotsky and literacy research: A methodological framework. Boston: Sense. Pp. 4-6 > > Problems in Translation > Reading extensively in Vygotskian scholarship seems critical to referencing him knowledgeably, given the challenges that Vygotsky's writing presents to the 21st Century reader. Among these challenges is the problem that most of his readers, particularly in North America, encounter him through translation. In Daniels, Cole, and Wertsch's (2007) collection of international papers outlining a Vygotskian perspective, a number of the contributors are fluent speakers of Russian. However, even those whom I consider to be conversant with Vygotsky's original writing-those whose publications are rife with references to works of Vygotsky that are only available in Russian-are cautious about their grasp of both the language and the concepts. > Michael Cole, who has spoken Russian for many decades, who lived in the for-mer Soviet Union during his internship with A. R. Luria, who served as co-editor and co-translator of Mind in Society (Vygotsky, 1978), whose leadership in the Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition has helped to shape worldwide extensions of Russian psychology, who was the founding editor of the journal Mind, Culture, and Activity, and who has produced a number of foundational works in the Vygotskian tradition, wrote in response to my inquiry that "I have been writing jointly with [Russian Natalia Gajdamaschko] precisely because I feel so strongly the need for more than simple translation help in dealing with the meta-psychology and national ethos that is the relevant context for understanding the local words" (M. Cole, personal communication). James Wertsch, who has spent considerable time in the Soviet Union, Russia, and many former Soviet states where Russian remains the lingua franca, and who has translated Vygotsky into English (e.g., Wertsch, 1981), also backs off from claims that his knowledge of Russian could be termed fluent (J. Wertsch, personal communication). > As someone whose only linkage to Vygotsky's Byelorussian roots comes through my grandparents' origins in Vygotsky's hometown of Gomel, I read the qualifiers by Cole and Wertsch as cautions regarding any claims to understanding Vygotsky for those of us who speak no Russian at all. I rely on the translations of others, including those who express limited confidence in their own fluency. Most North American readers face this same problem, and so the challenges of reading a major thinker only in translation-especially translation that spans alphabets, cultures, concepts, and other formidable barriers-are thus worth reviewing here. > At present there are abundant Vygotskian texts available to the English lan-guage reader: six volumes of collected works in publication, additional books from his oeuvre available (e.g., Vygotsky, 1971, 1997; Vygotsky & Luria, 1993), key texts subjected to multiple translations, and a major project now underway in Russia to make his entire output available to English-speaking readers. Yet Vygotsky remains a complex figure and difficult scholar to grasp, and for a variety of reasons. In his "Translator's Foreword and Acknowledgements" to The Collected Works, Volume 3, Van der Veer says, "I have not attempted to improve Vygotsky's style of writing although it was at times difficult to refrain from doing so. It is clear that Vygotsky . . . never rewrote a text for the sake of improving its style and readability. Hence the redundancy, the difficulty to follow the thread of his argument, the awkward sentences, etc." (p. v). > Meshcheryakov (2007) notes that Vygotsky produced 190 works within the ten-year span that comprised his career, many of which "were written very quickly, in almost telegraphic style. Some works remain unfinished. It is certainly possible that some of the works that were published posthumously were not yet intended for publication" (p. 155). Daniels et al. (2007) assert that "It is difficult to reconcile some of the writing from the early 1920s with that which was produced during the last 2 years of his life. These rapid changes, coupled with the fact that his work was not published in chronological order, make synthetic summaries of his work difficult" (p. 2). So in addition to the difficulty of the ideas Vygotsky produced, his rendering of them into text made for challenging reading, no matter how well-prepared the reader is. > Even those with extraordinary fluency in Vygotsky's work typically consult others to help with their understanding. Van der Veer, a native of the Netherlands, relates in his translator's introduction to the Collected Works, Volume 3 that "After I had translated the whole volume [from Russian to English], I carefully checked my translation against the German and Spanish translations of the same volume" (1997, p. v). With five languages at play in his effort to translate Vygotsky's al-ready-difficult prose and concepts (German, Spanish, Russian, English, and Dutch), Van der Veer further enlisted feedback from a host of colleagues (mostly European) in order to amend Vygotsky's "sloppy" approach to citation by includ-ing appropriate references and footnotes to provide depth, detail, and clarification to the text. > Van der Veer's (1997) meticulous approach to rendering Vygotsky into English suggests one key lesson to be learned from reading Vygotsky with any insight: that claims to understanding or implementing ideas must be undertaken with care and caution. I refer again to Van der Veer's work in underscoring the importance of reading more than just excerpts (or summaries of excerpts, or summaries of those summaries in textbooks) from Mind in Society in claiming a Vygotskian perspec-tive. In his review of an Italian translation of Thinking and Speech that post-dates any version of the text available in English, Van der Veer makes the remarkable point that > Unfortunately, neither in English nor in any other language has a reliable repub-lication of Thought and Language been available. Leaving aside the questions that can be raised concerning the original Soviet 1934 edition (Vygotsky did not see the book in print and the editor, Kolbanovsky, changed some of the wordings to make the book more palatable for the ideological leaders), we know that the later 1956 and 1982 Soviet editions were marred by many mistakes and plain falsifications. All of the existing translations into English, or any other language, took these unreliable later editions as their point of departure. As a result, readers unable to read Russian or find a copy of the original 1934 edition have had, until now, no authoritative text of Thought and Language available. (p. 83; cf. van der Veer, 1987, for a critical review of Kozulin's 1986 translation of Thought and Language, which to van der Veer is more properly translated as Thinking and Speech) > I am impressed that Van der Veer is now sufficiently fluent in at least six lan-guages to read Vygotsky and then make this judgment; I am alarmed that he nonetheless states that "Vygotsky obviously preferred principled opponents, such as Pavlov, who made their own original contribution to science and invented their own scientific vocabulary to mediocre university professors, such as the present writer, who can only summarize what others have discovered" (2007, p. 37). If I'm not sufficiently daunted to learn that Van der Veer regards himself as a relative mediocrity, I cringe yet further when I realize that even though I've been referencing Vygotsky in my own work since the early 1990s, I probably am basing my understanding on inaccurate and incomplete translations. It becomes important, then, for me and no doubt others to engage with the work of Vygotskian scholars who have read his Russian texts in order to develop a clearer grasp of the ideas that I believe I am drawing on. > If problems of direct translation of Vygotsky's work were not enough of a chal-lenge, the fact that he did not necessarily pen his own texts presents another. His magnum opus, Thinking and Speech, was published in 1934, the year he died; he dictated sections from his sickbed, no doubt contributing to the text's notorious difficulty (Zinchenko, 2007). Further, some of what is published under his name is taken from his student's lecture notes or other stenographic records, undoubtedly with gaps in transcription and reformulation in expression (e.g., a set of lectures included in the Collected Works, Volume 5: "The Crisis of the First Year," "Early Childhood," "The Crisis at Age Three," "The Crisis at Age Seven"; Vygotsky, 1998b). Making definitive claims, as do Gredler and Shields (2004), regarding what Vygotsky did and did not say, is thus a precarious undertaking that even the most reputable U. S. Vygotskian scholars should attempt with considerable caution and temperance. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2015 5:26 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback > > Wow! > > This book looks really cool! Thanks for bringing it to listserv consciousness, Peter! > > I did not know that Vygotsky was notoriously indifferent to his reader's sensibilities. I do not know what that means? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/lev-vygotsky-9781472504920/ > > > 12-18-2014 > ? > About Lev Vygotsky > > Lev Vygotsky, the great Russian psychologist, had a profound influence on educational thought. His work on the perception of art, cultural-historical theory of the mind and the zone of proximal development all had an impact on modern education. > > This text provides a succinct critical account of Vygotsky's life and work against the background of the political events and social turmoil of that time and analyses his cross-cultural research and the application of his ideas to contemporary education. Ren? van der Veer offers his own interpretation of Vygotsky as both the man and anti-man of educational philosophy, concluding that the strength of Vygotsky's legacy lies in its unfinished, open nature. > > Table Of Contents > > Foreword > Series Editor's Preface > Preface > > Introduction > > Part I: Intellectual Biography > 1. Lev Vygotsky > > Part II: Critical Exposition of Vygotsky's Work 2. Early Writings 3. Creating Cultural-historical Theory 4. The Zone of Proximal Development 5. Cross-cultural Education > > Part III: The Reception, Influence and Relevance of Vygotsky's Work Today 6. Contemporary Educational Research 7. Conclusions > > Bibliography > Name Index > Subject Index > > Reviews > > "In this concise intellectual biography of L. S. Vygotsky, eminent Vygotskian authority Ren? van der Veer has written an accessible account of the major periods of Vygotsky's career, reviewing the development of Vygotsky's thinking in plain and often witty language, a service of immeasurable importance, given Vygotsky's notorious indifference to his readers' sensibilities... This volume is straightforward and edifying enough for undergraduates, and stimulating and informative enough for those who have been immersed in Vygotskian scholarship for many decades." - Peter Smagorinsky, The University of Georgia, USA, > From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Jan 27 10:35:24 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:35:24 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback In-Reply-To: References: <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu> Message-ID: Peter, I?m wondering if you would agree that it relates to the on-going thread on sense and meaning. Vygotsky was so focussed on developing his ideas that his sense got away from his meaning? The Whorf-Sapir Linguistic Rleativity Hypothesis that each language construes the world differently seems relevant. How is translation and real-time interpreting even possible? Of course, I?m one who thinks that interpreting what native speakers of English say and write runs into the same problems as translating from one language to the other. Second language acquisition. Mike Cole and Rene Van der Meer learned Russian as a second language. I consider myself fluent in Spanish, but rapid patter and humor make me realize how far short of fluent i am. Of course, written language is very different. Joseph Conrad, whose first language was Polish, spoke English with a very thick accent but who would know it by reading his works? Henry > On Jan 27, 2015, at 4:34 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > Annalisa, my apologies for recycling things I've already written. Perhaps the following helps with your question. From Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Vygotsky and literacy research: A methodological framework. Boston: Sense. Pp. 4-6 > > Problems in Translation > Reading extensively in Vygotskian scholarship seems critical to referencing him knowledgeably, given the challenges that Vygotsky's writing presents to the 21st Century reader. Among these challenges is the problem that most of his readers, particularly in North America, encounter him through translation. In Daniels, Cole, and Wertsch's (2007) collection of international papers outlining a Vygotskian perspective, a number of the contributors are fluent speakers of Russian. However, even those whom I consider to be conversant with Vygotsky's original writing-those whose publications are rife with references to works of Vygotsky that are only available in Russian-are cautious about their grasp of both the language and the concepts. > Michael Cole, who has spoken Russian for many decades, who lived in the for-mer Soviet Union during his internship with A. R. Luria, who served as co-editor and co-translator of Mind in Society (Vygotsky, 1978), whose leadership in the Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition has helped to shape worldwide extensions of Russian psychology, who was the founding editor of the journal Mind, Culture, and Activity, and who has produced a number of foundational works in the Vygotskian tradition, wrote in response to my inquiry that "I have been writing jointly with [Russian Natalia Gajdamaschko] precisely because I feel so strongly the need for more than simple translation help in dealing with the meta-psychology and national ethos that is the relevant context for understanding the local words" (M. Cole, personal communication). James Wertsch, who has spent considerable time in the Soviet Union, Russia, and many former Soviet states where Russian remains the lingua franca, and who has translated Vygotsky into English (e.g., Wertsch, 1981), also backs off from claims that his knowledge of Russian could be termed fluent (J. Wertsch, personal communication). > As someone whose only linkage to Vygotsky's Byelorussian roots comes through my grandparents' origins in Vygotsky's hometown of Gomel, I read the qualifiers by Cole and Wertsch as cautions regarding any claims to understanding Vygotsky for those of us who speak no Russian at all. I rely on the translations of others, including those who express limited confidence in their own fluency. Most North American readers face this same problem, and so the challenges of reading a major thinker only in translation-especially translation that spans alphabets, cultures, concepts, and other formidable barriers-are thus worth reviewing here. > At present there are abundant Vygotskian texts available to the English lan-guage reader: six volumes of collected works in publication, additional books from his oeuvre available (e.g., Vygotsky, 1971, 1997; Vygotsky & Luria, 1993), key texts subjected to multiple translations, and a major project now underway in Russia to make his entire output available to English-speaking readers. Yet Vygotsky remains a complex figure and difficult scholar to grasp, and for a variety of reasons. In his "Translator's Foreword and Acknowledgements" to The Collected Works, Volume 3, Van der Veer says, "I have not attempted to improve Vygotsky's style of writing although it was at times difficult to refrain from doing so. It is clear that Vygotsky . . . never rewrote a text for the sake of improving its style and readability. Hence the redundancy, the difficulty to follow the thread of his argument, the awkward sentences, etc." (p. v). > Meshcheryakov (2007) notes that Vygotsky produced 190 works within the ten-year span that comprised his career, many of which "were written very quickly, in almost telegraphic style. Some works remain unfinished. It is certainly possible that some of the works that were published posthumously were not yet intended for publication" (p. 155). Daniels et al. (2007) assert that "It is difficult to reconcile some of the writing from the early 1920s with that which was produced during the last 2 years of his life. These rapid changes, coupled with the fact that his work was not published in chronological order, make synthetic summaries of his work difficult" (p. 2). So in addition to the difficulty of the ideas Vygotsky produced, his rendering of them into text made for challenging reading, no matter how well-prepared the reader is. > Even those with extraordinary fluency in Vygotsky's work typically consult others to help with their understanding. Van der Veer, a native of the Netherlands, relates in his translator's introduction to the Collected Works, Volume 3 that "After I had translated the whole volume [from Russian to English], I carefully checked my translation against the German and Spanish translations of the same volume" (1997, p. v). With five languages at play in his effort to translate Vygotsky's al-ready-difficult prose and concepts (German, Spanish, Russian, English, and Dutch), Van der Veer further enlisted feedback from a host of colleagues (mostly European) in order to amend Vygotsky's "sloppy" approach to citation by includ-ing appropriate references and footnotes to provide depth, detail, and clarification to the text. > Van der Veer's (1997) meticulous approach to rendering Vygotsky into English suggests one key lesson to be learned from reading Vygotsky with any insight: that claims to understanding or implementing ideas must be undertaken with care and caution. I refer again to Van der Veer's work in underscoring the importance of reading more than just excerpts (or summaries of excerpts, or summaries of those summaries in textbooks) from Mind in Society in claiming a Vygotskian perspec-tive. In his review of an Italian translation of Thinking and Speech that post-dates any version of the text available in English, Van der Veer makes the remarkable point that > Unfortunately, neither in English nor in any other language has a reliable repub-lication of Thought and Language been available. Leaving aside the questions that can be raised concerning the original Soviet 1934 edition (Vygotsky did not see the book in print and the editor, Kolbanovsky, changed some of the wordings to make the book more palatable for the ideological leaders), we know that the later 1956 and 1982 Soviet editions were marred by many mistakes and plain falsifications. All of the existing translations into English, or any other language, took these unreliable later editions as their point of departure. As a result, readers unable to read Russian or find a copy of the original 1934 edition have had, until now, no authoritative text of Thought and Language available. (p. 83; cf. van der Veer, 1987, for a critical review of Kozulin's 1986 translation of Thought and Language, which to van der Veer is more properly translated as Thinking and Speech) > I am impressed that Van der Veer is now sufficiently fluent in at least six lan-guages to read Vygotsky and then make this judgment; I am alarmed that he nonetheless states that "Vygotsky obviously preferred principled opponents, such as Pavlov, who made their own original contribution to science and invented their own scientific vocabulary to mediocre university professors, such as the present writer, who can only summarize what others have discovered" (2007, p. 37). If I'm not sufficiently daunted to learn that Van der Veer regards himself as a relative mediocrity, I cringe yet further when I realize that even though I've been referencing Vygotsky in my own work since the early 1990s, I probably am basing my understanding on inaccurate and incomplete translations. It becomes important, then, for me and no doubt others to engage with the work of Vygotskian scholars who have read his Russian texts in order to develop a clearer grasp of the ideas that I believe I am drawing on. > If problems of direct translation of Vygotsky's work were not enough of a chal-lenge, the fact that he did not necessarily pen his own texts presents another. His magnum opus, Thinking and Speech, was published in 1934, the year he died; he dictated sections from his sickbed, no doubt contributing to the text's notorious difficulty (Zinchenko, 2007). Further, some of what is published under his name is taken from his student's lecture notes or other stenographic records, undoubtedly with gaps in transcription and reformulation in expression (e.g., a set of lectures included in the Collected Works, Volume 5: "The Crisis of the First Year," "Early Childhood," "The Crisis at Age Three," "The Crisis at Age Seven"; Vygotsky, 1998b). Making definitive claims, as do Gredler and Shields (2004), regarding what Vygotsky did and did not say, is thus a precarious undertaking that even the most reputable U. S. Vygotskian scholars should attempt with considerable caution and temperance. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2015 5:26 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback > > Wow! > > This book looks really cool! Thanks for bringing it to listserv consciousness, Peter! > > I did not know that Vygotsky was notoriously indifferent to his reader's sensibilities. I do not know what that means? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/lev-vygotsky-9781472504920/ > > > 12-18-2014 > ? > About Lev Vygotsky > > Lev Vygotsky, the great Russian psychologist, had a profound influence on educational thought. His work on the perception of art, cultural-historical theory of the mind and the zone of proximal development all had an impact on modern education. > > This text provides a succinct critical account of Vygotsky's life and work against the background of the political events and social turmoil of that time and analyses his cross-cultural research and the application of his ideas to contemporary education. Ren? van der Veer offers his own interpretation of Vygotsky as both the man and anti-man of educational philosophy, concluding that the strength of Vygotsky's legacy lies in its unfinished, open nature. > > Table Of Contents > > Foreword > Series Editor's Preface > Preface > > Introduction > > Part I: Intellectual Biography > 1. Lev Vygotsky > > Part II: Critical Exposition of Vygotsky's Work 2. Early Writings 3. Creating Cultural-historical Theory 4. The Zone of Proximal Development 5. Cross-cultural Education > > Part III: The Reception, Influence and Relevance of Vygotsky's Work Today 6. Contemporary Educational Research 7. Conclusions > > Bibliography > Name Index > Subject Index > > Reviews > > "In this concise intellectual biography of L. S. Vygotsky, eminent Vygotskian authority Ren? van der Veer has written an accessible account of the major periods of Vygotsky's career, reviewing the development of Vygotsky's thinking in plain and often witty language, a service of immeasurable importance, given Vygotsky's notorious indifference to his readers' sensibilities... This volume is straightforward and edifying enough for undergraduates, and stimulating and informative enough for those who have been immersed in Vygotskian scholarship for many decades." - Peter Smagorinsky, The University of Georgia, USA, > From smago@uga.edu Tue Jan 27 12:49:22 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 20:49:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback In-Reply-To: References: <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu> Message-ID: Henry, I think there were several issues. As I understand it, Vygotsky knew he wouldn't live long and so generated ideas and text relentlessly, leaving little time for revision. I also think that handwritten texts of the sort available to him did not have the revision capabilities that today's writers have. I'm not sure that I'd agree that sense has meaning. Rather, it's inchoate, and finds meaning in articulation and representation through sign systems. Time's tight on this end, so my apologies for trying to contribute with something I wrote awhile back; the full article is attached. Zones of Meaning In this section, I discuss what Vygotsky refers to as zones of meaning. The discussion is potentially confusing because of the ways in which Vygotsky's Russian terms have been translated. Vygotsky's (1934) Myshlenie i rech': Psikhologicheskie issledovaniya has been translated three times, twice as Thought and Language (1962, 1986) and once as Thinking and Speech (1987). All three versions have translated two of Vygotsky's key terms in ways that have been called into question (e.g., Matusov, 2000; see XMCA Discussion Listserve, 2000). The Russian term smysl has been translated as sense (i.e., unarticulated inner speech), while the term znachenie has been translated as meaning (i.e., the articulation of thought through a sign system such as words). Vygotsky, however, viewed both smysl and znachenie as constituents of the meaningful whole. I next explain each of these two zones of meaning in greater detail. Smysl is the set of images and associations one makes with a sign such as a word in the area of consciousness Vygotsky (1987) called inner speech, that is, the abbreviated syntax and stream-of-consciousness properties of unarticulated, inchoate thought. Smysl corresponds to what Rosenblatt (1978) refers to as the initial zone of meaning in a reader's evocation, or what Gallas (2001) refers to as imagination. Rosenblatt describes this experience as a penumbra of "memories" of what has preceded, ready to be activated by what follows, and providing the context from which further meaning will be derived. Awareness-more or less explicit-of repetitions, echoes, resonances, repercussions, linkages, cumulative effects, contrasts, or surprises is the mnemonic matrix for the structuring of emotion, idea, situation, character, plot-in short, for the evocation of a work of art. (pp. 57-58) Smysl is as yet unarticulated, being instead the storm cloud of thought that produces the shower of words, to use Vygotsky's (1987) metaphor. One great limitation of the concept of smysl is that it cannot be empirically demonstrated, only inferred. Vygotsky's formulation of inner speech came from his observations of egocentric speech in young children, which he theorized became internalized as inner speech. Once speech (or another tool) is articulated and thus observable, it appears in the zone of meaning that is the shower of words (or other signs) that Vygotsky calls znachenie. Znachenie, then, is the zone of meaning available in represented form, corresponding to the notion of a sign, regardless of modality. Because these two zones compose a meaningful whole, referring to znachenie as "meaning" can be misleading. I retain the translation of sense for smysl: "the aggregate of all the psychological facts that arise in our consciousness as the result of the word. Sense is a dynamic, fluid, and complex formation which has several zones that vary in their stability" (Vygotsky, 1987, p. 275). For znachenie, I use articulation: It is the most stable, unified, and precise of these zones. In different contexts, a word's sense changes. In contrast, [articulation] is a comparatively fixed and stable point, one that remains constant with all the exchanges of the word's sense that are associated with its use in various contexts. (p. 275) A reader's association of meaning with a text-and here I refer to the whole of meaning comprising all of its zones-reveals something about the text itself but also serves as residue of the cultural constructs that are appropriated to provide the reader's frameworks for thinking (Tulviste, 1991). Any concept-and, consequently, any construction of meaning-is thus necessarily located first in culture and second in the mind of the individual. And because the mind extends beyond the skin to include the tools of mediation through which the individual then acts on the environment, the mind of the individual, however distributed, in turn contributes to the evolving culture of the social surround (Smagorinsky, 1995b). Among these mediators are texts themselves, transactions with which can contribute to the worldviews of members of a culture. When these texts presume particular relationships, social hierarchies, and competence levels-such as the masculine orientation of many sacred religious texts-they can inscribe in a society assumptions about the location of authority and power (Luke, 1988; Rabinowitz, 1987). Concepts and meaning thus have cultural origins. It is quite possible for individuals to resist these cultural conceptions. I would argue, however, that resisting one set of cultural constructs relies on precepts that are appropriated from other cultural constructs. And so, while any individual has the capacity to resist and defy the worldview of any culture, it is not possible to think and act independent of culture; it is not possible to live aculturally (Cole, 1996). From this perspective, texts are composed of signs that themselves are inscribed and codified as cultural artifacts and are read by people whose ways of encoding are conditioned by participation in cultural practice. The transactional zone is available when readers have been enculturated to recognize the codes by which the texts are produced. This is not to say that all readings will subsequently be the same or that texts may signify in only one way, only to say that readers and texts share a cultural cognizance. The Mediation of Sense Into Articulation Sense is mediated into an articulation through the use of a psychological tool, often speech, which can serve "as a tool for exploring a subject" and help "generate new ideas 'at the point of utterance'" (Applebee, 1981, p. 100; cf. Langer & Applebee, 1987). I next illustrate this process with research conducted in an alternative school for recovering substance abusers (for details of the research, see Smagorinsky, 1995a, 1997a, 1999; Smagorinsky & Coppock, 1994, 1995a, 1995b). We studied the composing processes of students who produced artistic interpretations of William Carlos Williams's short story "The Use of Force" (see http://www.bnl.com/shorts/stories/force.html for an online version of this story). The story concerns a doctor who narrates an account of a house call he makes during a diphtheria epidemic. The doctor must extract a throat culture from a young girl who has displayed symptoms of the illness. The girl battles him savagely and hysterically to prevent him from examining her throat, and her parents try to help the doctor by holding her down and shaming her into complying. During the course of the struggle, the doctor develops contempt for the parents and passion toward the girl. Against his rational judgment, the doctor becomes lost in "a blind fury" to attack and subdue the girl. In "a final unreasoning assault" he overpowers her and discovers her "secret" of "tonsils covered with membrane." The story ends with a final act of fury in which the girl attacks the doctor "while tears of defeat [blind] her eyes." One of the students we studied, Dexter, drew a picture representing the relationship between the doctor and the girl (see Figure 1). Through a stimulated recall interview that followed his drawing, he revealed the transformative effect of his process of composing on the way he thought about the story. Rather than having a fully formed picture of the characters in his head prior to drawing, Dexter said that "at the end, I understood what I was doing more than I did when I began the drawing.... I got more involved in the picture as I did it." In his initial reading, Dexter simply tried to follow the action and then eventually began "thinking about something during the story...something difficult" that helped get him involved in his reading. These "difficult" yet unarticulated problems that he thought about suggest that they occurred at the level of sense, which he then had the opportunity to develop into an articulation through the psychological tool of drawing. When he began drawing, he was uncertain about how he would depict them, knowing only that the relationship between the girl and the doctor would involve shame and control. Dexter related that the meaning of the drawing changed as the picture developed. For instance, when he started his drawing, Dexter had not been certain what the threatening figure would represent. Dexter: I wasn't really sure if it was him going to be the doctor or not until the end of the story, I mean, until the end of the drawing, because I was thinking, well, it could be this person that she, that she has imaged in her mind and uh-or this could be an analogy of diphtheria, but then I said it doesn't matter. It's just a doctor. It was going through her mind, [inaudible] but I liked to read. The first time I'd read the doctor; the second, the analogy. It's just through that one story. Interviewer: So you mean, even after you drew the face and everything, it wasn't the doctor yet? Dexter: Uh-huh. I mean it could have been a lot of things. It depends on your viewpoint of the picture, but what I was thinking is-it was the doctor and then it was an analogy of the whole attitude of the story, and then it was the, her parents' attitude, or the parents, especially her parents. For Dexter, the story took on meaning as he developed his articulation. Moreover, he continually produced provisional images-that is, articulations of his sense of the characters' relationships and their signification to him-on his drawing, which in turn enabled him to reflect and compose further. His process of meaning making, then, involved exploratory efforts to represent his sense of the story that resulted in tentative articulation, to which he assigned different meanings as his thinking about the story progressed during his continued efforts to depict it. I previously made the point that psychological tools are themselves subject to concentrically nested tool mediation. The various interpretations produced by the alternative school students illustrate this point well. The alternative school facility provided a local culture in which therapy for recovery was of primary importance. A successful student was one who advanced through a modified 12-step rehabilitation program while succeeding in course work and abiding by the institution's rules. The emphasis on therapy opened up the students' available tools for succeeding in course work. In addition, the school had only two classroom teachers, resulting in opportunities for cross-genre, cross-disciplinary, multimedia performance. Interpreting literature through art was thus legitimized in ways not typically allowed in mainstream schools. The alternative school setting illustrates the ways in which the historical grounding for reading provides a sense of what constitutes an appropriate reading of a particular text in a specific context. Bloome and Egan-Robertson (1993) stressed that "the social construction of intertextuality occurs within a cultural ideology that influences which texts may be juxtaposed and how those texts might be juxtaposed, by whom, where, and when" (p. 330). In other words, cultural values sanction the juxtaposition of some texts but not others. Schools, for instance, do not typically value an artistic text as an appropriate interpretive representation to emerge from a student's engagement with literature (Applebee, 1993). The orders of discourse described by the New London Group (1996; Fairclough, 2000) are not automatically importable to new situations but depend on socially situated values and constraints. Furthermore, the students themselves participated in a youth and drug culture in which rock music played an important role, a value that was appreciated by the teacher, John Coppock, who came from an artistic family that included musicians and dancers. John was also theoretically aligned with Gardner's (1983) theory of multiple intelligences (see Coppock, 1999). The mediational avenues through which students produced their interpretations of "The Use of Force," then, were channeled by the cultural constraints and affordances provided by the alternative school and this classroom, particularly with regard to the teacher's decision to allow the students to contribute to the classroom culture. Moreover, each student brought a vast and complex history of tool use that affected individual choices of which interpretive mode to use. Dexter, for instance, had had a severe hearing problem as a child, causing him to communicate frequently through drawing (e.g., drawing a cereal box to say what he wanted for breakfast). While biological in origin, his hearing problem created a culture within his home that legitimized drawing as a mode of expression. Tool use, then, while mediational, is also culturally mediated. As illustrated by Dexter's encoding of the story with personal meaning and composition of an idiosyncratic interpretive text, a part of his own history of relationships was played out in his drawing process and product. Indeed, his inscription of the threatening figure with several different associations in different iterations shows the ways in which these personal relationships contribute to the relationship he develops with the text when he engages with it in the transactional zone. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 1:35 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback Peter, I'm wondering if you would agree that it relates to the on-going thread on sense and meaning. Vygotsky was so focussed on developing his ideas that his sense got away from his meaning? The Whorf-Sapir Linguistic Rleativity Hypothesis that each language construes the world differently seems relevant. How is translation and real-time interpreting even possible? Of course, I'm one who thinks that interpreting what native speakers of English say and write runs into the same problems as translating from one language to the other. Second language acquisition. Mike Cole and Rene Van der Meer learned Russian as a second language. I consider myself fluent in Spanish, but rapid patter and humor make me realize how far short of fluent i am. Of course, written language is very different. Joseph Conrad, whose first language was Polish, spoke English with a very thick accent but who would know it by reading his works? Henry > On Jan 27, 2015, at 4:34 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > Annalisa, my apologies for recycling things I've already written. Perhaps the following helps with your question. From Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Vygotsky and literacy research: A methodological framework. Boston: Sense. Pp. 4-6 > > Problems in Translation > Reading extensively in Vygotskian scholarship seems critical to referencing him knowledgeably, given the challenges that Vygotsky's writing presents to the 21st Century reader. Among these challenges is the problem that most of his readers, particularly in North America, encounter him through translation. In Daniels, Cole, and Wertsch's (2007) collection of international papers outlining a Vygotskian perspective, a number of the contributors are fluent speakers of Russian. However, even those whom I consider to be conversant with Vygotsky's original writing-those whose publications are rife with references to works of Vygotsky that are only available in Russian-are cautious about their grasp of both the language and the concepts. > Michael Cole, who has spoken Russian for many decades, who lived in the for-mer Soviet Union during his internship with A. R. Luria, who served as co-editor and co-translator of Mind in Society (Vygotsky, 1978), whose leadership in the Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition has helped to shape worldwide extensions of Russian psychology, who was the founding editor of the journal Mind, Culture, and Activity, and who has produced a number of foundational works in the Vygotskian tradition, wrote in response to my inquiry that "I have been writing jointly with [Russian Natalia Gajdamaschko] precisely because I feel so strongly the need for more than simple translation help in dealing with the meta-psychology and national ethos that is the relevant context for understanding the local words" (M. Cole, personal communication). James Wertsch, who has spent considerable time in the Soviet Union, Russia, and many former Soviet states where Russian remains the lingua franca, and who has translated Vygotsky into English (e.g., Wertsch, 1981), also backs off from claims that his knowledge of Russian could be termed fluent (J. Wertsch, personal communication). > As someone whose only linkage to Vygotsky's Byelorussian roots comes through my grandparents' origins in Vygotsky's hometown of Gomel, I read the qualifiers by Cole and Wertsch as cautions regarding any claims to understanding Vygotsky for those of us who speak no Russian at all. I rely on the translations of others, including those who express limited confidence in their own fluency. Most North American readers face this same problem, and so the challenges of reading a major thinker only in translation-especially translation that spans alphabets, cultures, concepts, and other formidable barriers-are thus worth reviewing here. > At present there are abundant Vygotskian texts available to the English lan-guage reader: six volumes of collected works in publication, additional books from his oeuvre available (e.g., Vygotsky, 1971, 1997; Vygotsky & Luria, 1993), key texts subjected to multiple translations, and a major project now underway in Russia to make his entire output available to English-speaking readers. Yet Vygotsky remains a complex figure and difficult scholar to grasp, and for a variety of reasons. In his "Translator's Foreword and Acknowledgements" to The Collected Works, Volume 3, Van der Veer says, "I have not attempted to improve Vygotsky's style of writing although it was at times difficult to refrain from doing so. It is clear that Vygotsky . . . never rewrote a text for the sake of improving its style and readability. Hence the redundancy, the difficulty to follow the thread of his argument, the awkward sentences, etc." (p. v). > Meshcheryakov (2007) notes that Vygotsky produced 190 works within the ten-year span that comprised his career, many of which "were written very quickly, in almost telegraphic style. Some works remain unfinished. It is certainly possible that some of the works that were published posthumously were not yet intended for publication" (p. 155). Daniels et al. (2007) assert that "It is difficult to reconcile some of the writing from the early 1920s with that which was produced during the last 2 years of his life. These rapid changes, coupled with the fact that his work was not published in chronological order, make synthetic summaries of his work difficult" (p. 2). So in addition to the difficulty of the ideas Vygotsky produced, his rendering of them into text made for challenging reading, no matter how well-prepared the reader is. > Even those with extraordinary fluency in Vygotsky's work typically consult others to help with their understanding. Van der Veer, a native of the Netherlands, relates in his translator's introduction to the Collected Works, Volume 3 that "After I had translated the whole volume [from Russian to English], I carefully checked my translation against the German and Spanish translations of the same volume" (1997, p. v). With five languages at play in his effort to translate Vygotsky's al-ready-difficult prose and concepts (German, Spanish, Russian, English, and Dutch), Van der Veer further enlisted feedback from a host of colleagues (mostly European) in order to amend Vygotsky's "sloppy" approach to citation by includ-ing appropriate references and footnotes to provide depth, detail, and clarification to the text. > Van der Veer's (1997) meticulous approach to rendering Vygotsky into English suggests one key lesson to be learned from reading Vygotsky with any insight: that claims to understanding or implementing ideas must be undertaken with care and caution. I refer again to Van der Veer's work in underscoring the importance of reading more than just excerpts (or summaries of excerpts, or summaries of those summaries in textbooks) from Mind in Society in claiming a Vygotskian perspec-tive. In his review of an Italian translation of Thinking and Speech that post-dates any version of the text available in English, Van der Veer makes the remarkable point that > Unfortunately, neither in English nor in any other language has a reliable repub-lication of Thought and Language been available. Leaving aside the questions that can be raised concerning the original Soviet 1934 edition (Vygotsky did not see the book in print and the editor, Kolbanovsky, changed some of the wordings to make the book more palatable for the ideological leaders), we know that the later 1956 and 1982 Soviet editions were marred by many mistakes and plain falsifications. All of the existing translations into English, or any other language, took these unreliable later editions as their point of departure. As a result, readers unable to read Russian or find a copy of the original 1934 edition have had, until now, no authoritative text of Thought and Language available. (p. 83; cf. van der Veer, 1987, for a critical review of Kozulin's 1986 translation of Thought and Language, which to van der Veer is more properly translated as Thinking and Speech) > I am impressed that Van der Veer is now sufficiently fluent in at least six lan-guages to read Vygotsky and then make this judgment; I am alarmed that he nonetheless states that "Vygotsky obviously preferred principled opponents, such as Pavlov, who made their own original contribution to science and invented their own scientific vocabulary to mediocre university professors, such as the present writer, who can only summarize what others have discovered" (2007, p. 37). If I'm not sufficiently daunted to learn that Van der Veer regards himself as a relative mediocrity, I cringe yet further when I realize that even though I've been referencing Vygotsky in my own work since the early 1990s, I probably am basing my understanding on inaccurate and incomplete translations. It becomes important, then, for me and no doubt others to engage with the work of Vygotskian scholars who have read his Russian texts in order to develop a clearer grasp of the ideas that I believe I am drawing on. > If problems of direct translation of Vygotsky's work were not enough of a chal-lenge, the fact that he did not necessarily pen his own texts presents another. His magnum opus, Thinking and Speech, was published in 1934, the year he died; he dictated sections from his sickbed, no doubt contributing to the text's notorious difficulty (Zinchenko, 2007). Further, some of what is published under his name is taken from his student's lecture notes or other stenographic records, undoubtedly with gaps in transcription and reformulation in expression (e.g., a set of lectures included in the Collected Works, Volume 5: "The Crisis of the First Year," "Early Childhood," "The Crisis at Age Three," "The Crisis at Age Seven"; Vygotsky, 1998b). Making definitive claims, as do Gredler and Shields (2004), regarding what Vygotsky did and did not say, is thus a precarious undertaking that even the most reputable U. S. Vygotskian scholars should attempt with considerable caution and temperance. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2015 5:26 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback > > Wow! > > This book looks really cool! Thanks for bringing it to listserv consciousness, Peter! > > I did not know that Vygotsky was notoriously indifferent to his reader's sensibilities. I do not know what that means? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/lev-vygotsky-9781472504920/ > > > 12-18-2014 > ? > About Lev Vygotsky > > Lev Vygotsky, the great Russian psychologist, had a profound influence on educational thought. His work on the perception of art, cultural-historical theory of the mind and the zone of proximal development all had an impact on modern education. > > This text provides a succinct critical account of Vygotsky's life and work against the background of the political events and social turmoil of that time and analyses his cross-cultural research and the application of his ideas to contemporary education. Ren? van der Veer offers his own interpretation of Vygotsky as both the man and anti-man of educational philosophy, concluding that the strength of Vygotsky's legacy lies in its unfinished, open nature. > > Table Of Contents > > Foreword > Series Editor's Preface > Preface > > Introduction > > Part I: Intellectual Biography > 1. Lev Vygotsky > > Part II: Critical Exposition of Vygotsky's Work 2. Early Writings 3. Creating Cultural-historical Theory 4. The Zone of Proximal Development 5. Cross-cultural Education > > Part III: The Reception, Influence and Relevance of Vygotsky's Work Today 6. Contemporary Educational Research 7. Conclusions > > Bibliography > Name Index > Subject Index > > Reviews > > "In this concise intellectual biography of L. S. Vygotsky, eminent Vygotskian authority Ren? van der Veer has written an accessible account of the major periods of Vygotsky's career, reviewing the development of Vygotsky's thinking in plain and often witty language, a service of immeasurable importance, given Vygotsky's notorious indifference to his readers' sensibilities... This volume is straightforward and edifying enough for undergraduates, and stimulating and informative enough for those who have been immersed in Vygotskian scholarship for many decades." - Peter Smagorinsky, The University of Georgia, USA, > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: RER2001.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2209827 bytes Desc: RER2001.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150127/216f84ba/attachment-0001.pdf From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Jan 27 13:02:59 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 14:02:59 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Youth and Vido Narrative Project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, Norma Mendoza-Denton (UCLA) is doing some very interesting work studying the platform of Youtube and the role of the videos and subsequent comments on Latin@ gangsta rap videos and how they construct various kinds of publics (and btw, I wouldn't be surprised if Youtube can't do everything that Morten would like to do, but maybe not). Here is a description of a presentation of Norma's work: http://hrc.anu.edu.au/sites/hrc.anu.edu.au/files/u78/Mendoza-Denton%20flyer.pdf Perhaps a bit too linguistic-y for this audience's tastes? -greg On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 11:24 AM, mike cole wrote: > Michael's quite reasonable question about the purposes of the folks seeking > information about cheap/free online facilities that engage > youth in video production, exposition, and reflective discussion incited me > to contact Morten Nissen, for whom the query was sent, > and ask if it would be ok for me to post his entire note to me. > > I think that the project he is undertaking along with Catherine Hassa, a > LCHC alumna who comes to the project from a Social Studies of Science > perspective, will be of interest to many on xmca, even if youth and new > media is not your thing. > > Morten has a very informative article in Andy's volume on Projects that I > think it would be great for XMCAers to discuss. It gave me a lot to think > about that has echoes of our discussion of the LSV/ANL discussion, but with > Morten articulating a critical perspective that puts > LSV under the microscope, along with communities of practice. > > Anyway, here is the message Morten sent me. If its not of interest, BAIL! > > mike > > *Fra:* lchcmike@gmail.com [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com] *P? vegne af *mike > cole > *Sendt:* 22. januar 2015 18:31 > *Til:* Morten Nissen > *Emne:* Re: Have you received MCA mail? > > > > Nice to chat with you. hope you scored a goal! I will follow up. > > mike > > > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Morten Nissen wrote: > > Dear Mike > > Here?s a little bit on the theme of prototypical narratives. Attached is an > article to appear in Dialogic Pedagogy that includes an argument for > Prototypical Narratives, but this should be read with my chapter in the > Blunden book, for our interest centers on artifacts, too ? as you can see > also in the description of the PhD course with Emily Martin below. > > As mentioned, I?ll talk with Cathrine and return about your nice idea of a > seminar. > > Warmly, > > Morten > > > Performing Beyond Representation, or: Prototypical Narratives - the stuff > (:artifacts) that dreams (:theories) are made ofPhD course with Emily > Martin, Morten Nissen, and Line Lerche M?rck > > > > This course takes as its starting point the fact that we, as researchers, > increasingly are not only sampling data, but take part in producing > narratives as somehow prototypical, often involving ourselves in > unconventional ways, and carried by genres and model artifacts that we > barely understand or control (e.g. blogs or videos on shifting websites). > > > > Why call this prototypical narratives? In the philosophy of language, a > prototype is a concrete exemplar that is used to represent a generality. In > the Science and Technology Studies (STS) tradition, this has been taken up > with a focus on how the exemplar is produced and handled as artifact in a > situated practice, and how its status as prototypical, or potentially > standard, is realized and reproduced in concrete networks of practices. The > narrative approach in the social sciences and humanities has highlighted > the sequential and contextual ordering of processes and events as > meaningful in existential and practical terms. By its logical form, > narrative proposes singular occurrences as meaningful and generally > relevant. Taken together, prototypical narratives are narratives that > designate certain meaningful processes, events and practices as > prototypical by capturing them in text, video, or other media, broadly with > a view to relevance for guiding and reflecting practice. > > This fusion of narrativity and STS seems relevant since a) we are > increasingly required to provide concrete alternatives to the > empiricist-rationalist format of knowledge that is embodied in the > infrastructures of standardization through which practices are ruled, b) > the cultural genres of narrative performance and production evolve rapidly, > especially in terms of expanded technologies and challenges to the > private/public divisions, and this means that c) anyway we produce and use > model artifacts that take us well beyond what we can easily handle > (ethically and methodologically) as 'data' in research or 'case materials' > in teaching. > > > > This new situation requires us to reconceptualize classic issues such as > > ? *Temporality*: The way we recreate the past to feed hopes for the > future is accelerating; historicity is overtaking any foundations; > > ? *Reality*: With hyper-reality and reality TV, representation is no > longer secondary to its reference; we co-create the events we call in to > witness our stories; > > ? *Performance*: Could it be that ?citation? of (e.g. gender or > disease) standards increasingly fuse with producing and transforming them? > > ? *Subjectivity*: It is increasingly ourselves that we perform and > recreate, yet we tell of ourselves in forms that assume other objectivities > (such as those of drama, TV or art); > > ? *Logic*: Beyond the academic text, who knows how research questions, > arguments or findings might look? > > We have been pondering these ideas for a while, reflecting on the videos > and songs of former gang-members and drug users, ?curating? galleries, even > confessing our past on websites. We are now so privileged as to have > persuaded Emily Martin to help us understand it. Emily Martin is professor > of Anthropology at New York University, famous for feminist and science > studies, and deservedly praised for wonderful works such as *Bipolar > Expeditions *from 2009. > > > > Besides academic presentations, the course will take up singular instances > of what could be called prototypical narratives from the research practices > and networks of teachers and students. > > > > We suggest a 4 days course in the fall of 2015. The precise time will be > settled later. > > > > > > *Morten Nissen* > > PhD, Dr. Psych. > > Professor > > *Department of Education* > > Aarhus University > Tuborgvej 164 > > 2400 Copenhagen NV > > > > Tlf: +45 30282418 > www.edu.au.dk/ > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Tue Jan 27 13:30:21 2015 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 21:30:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback In-Reply-To: References: <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu> , Message-ID: <1422394221000.51250@ucdenver.edu> Peter - this attachment - If meaning is constructed, what is it made from? Toward a cultural theory of reading - is a paper i find to be highly useful working with my M.A. students in elementary teacher education. i've been using it for the last ten years, and it is enormously helpful for teachers working with students from poverty & working class, as well as students whose primary language is not english. i highly recommend it! phillip Phillip White, PhD Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or pawhite@aps.k12.co.us ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 1:49 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback Henry, I think there were several issues. As I understand it, Vygotsky knew he wouldn't live long and so generated ideas and text relentlessly, leaving little time for revision. I also think that handwritten texts of the sort available to him did not have the revision capabilities that today's writers have. I'm not sure that I'd agree that sense has meaning. Rather, it's inchoate, and finds meaning in articulation and representation through sign systems. Time's tight on this end, so my apologies for trying to contribute with something I wrote awhile back; the full article is attached. Zones of Meaning In this section, I discuss what Vygotsky refers to as zones of meaning. The discussion is potentially confusing because of the ways in which Vygotsky's Russian terms have been translated. Vygotsky's (1934) Myshlenie i rech': Psikhologicheskie issledovaniya has been translated three times, twice as Thought and Language (1962, 1986) and once as Thinking and Speech (1987). All three versions have translated two of Vygotsky's key terms in ways that have been called into question (e.g., Matusov, 2000; see XMCA Discussion Listserve, 2000). The Russian term smysl has been translated as sense (i.e., unarticulated inner speech), while the term znachenie has been translated as meaning (i.e., the articulation of thought through a sign system such as words). Vygotsky, however, viewed both smysl and znachenie as constituents of the meaningful whole. I next explain each of these two zones of meaning in greater detail. Smysl is the set of images and associations one makes with a sign such as a word in the area of consciousness Vygotsky (1987) called inner speech, that is, the abbreviated syntax and stream-of-consciousness properties of unarticulated, inchoate thought. Smysl corresponds to what Rosenblatt (1978) refers to as the initial zone of meaning in a reader's evocation, or what Gallas (2001) refers to as imagination. Rosenblatt describes this experience as a penumbra of "memories" of what has preceded, ready to be activated by what follows, and providing the context from which further meaning will be derived. Awareness-more or less explicit-of repetitions, echoes, resonances, repercussions, linkages, cumulative effects, contrasts, or surprises is the mnemonic matrix for the structuring of emotion, idea, situation, character, plot-in short, for the evocation of a work of art. (pp. 57-58) Smysl is as yet unarticulated, being instead the storm cloud of thought that produces the shower of words, to use Vygotsky's (1987) metaphor. One great limitation of the concept of smysl is that it cannot be empirically demonstrated, only inferred. Vygotsky's formulation of inner speech came from his observations of egocentric speech in young children, which he theorized became internalized as inner speech. Once speech (or another tool) is articulated and thus observable, it appears in the zone of meaning that is the shower of words (or other signs) that Vygotsky calls znachenie. Znachenie, then, is the zone of meaning available in represented form, corresponding to the notion of a sign, regardless of modality. Because these two zones compose a meaningful whole, referring to znachenie as "meaning" can be misleading. I retain the translation of sense for smysl: "the aggregate of all the psychological facts that arise in our consciousness as the result of the word. Sense is a dynamic, fluid, and complex formation which has several zones that vary in their stability" (Vygotsky, 1987, p. 275). For znachenie, I use articulation: It is the most stable, unified, and precise of these zones. In different contexts, a word's sense changes. In contrast, [articulation] is a comparatively fixed and stable point, one that remains constant with all the exchanges of the word's sense that are associated with its use in various contexts. (p. 275) A reader's association of meaning with a text-and here I refer to the whole of meaning comprising all of its zones-reveals something about the text itself but also serves as residue of the cultural constructs that are appropriated to provide the reader's frameworks for thinking (Tulviste, 1991). Any concept-and, consequently, any construction of meaning-is thus necessarily located first in culture and second in the mind of the individual. And because the mind extends beyond the skin to include the tools of mediation through which the individual then acts on the environment, the mind of the individual, however distributed, in turn contributes to the evolving culture of the social surround (Smagorinsky, 1995b). Among these mediators are texts themselves, transactions with which can contribute to the worldviews of members of a culture. When these texts presume particular relationships, social hierarchies, and competence levels-such as the masculine orientation of many sacred religious texts-they can inscribe in a society assumptions about the location of authority and power (Luke, 1988; Rabinowitz, 1987). Concepts and meaning thus have cultural origins. It is quite possible for individuals to resist these cultural conceptions. I would argue, however, that resisting one set of cultural constructs relies on precepts that are appropriated from other cultural constructs. And so, while any individual has the capacity to resist and defy the worldview of any culture, it is not possible to think and act independent of culture; it is not possible to live aculturally (Cole, 1996). From this perspective, texts are composed of signs that themselves are inscribed and codified as cultural artifacts and are read by people whose ways of encoding are conditioned by participation in cultural practice. The transactional zone is available when readers have been enculturated to recognize the codes by which the texts are produced. This is not to say that all readings will subsequently be the same or that texts may signify in only one way, only to say that readers and texts share a cultural cognizance. The Mediation of Sense Into Articulation Sense is mediated into an articulation through the use of a psychological tool, often speech, which can serve "as a tool for exploring a subject" and help "generate new ideas 'at the point of utterance'" (Applebee, 1981, p. 100; cf. Langer & Applebee, 1987). I next illustrate this process with research conducted in an alternative school for recovering substance abusers (for details of the research, see Smagorinsky, 1995a, 1997a, 1999; Smagorinsky & Coppock, 1994, 1995a, 1995b). We studied the composing processes of students who produced artistic interpretations of William Carlos Williams's short story "The Use of Force" (see http://www.bnl.com/shorts/stories/force.html for an online version of this story). The story concerns a doctor who narrates an account of a house call he makes during a diphtheria epidemic. The doctor must extract a throat culture from a young girl who has displayed symptoms of the illness. The girl battles him savagely and hysterically to prevent him from examining her throat, and her parents try to help the doctor by holding her down and shaming her into complying. During the course of the struggle, the doctor develops contempt for the parents and passion toward the girl. Against his rational judgment, the doctor becomes lost in "a blind fury" to attack and subdue the girl. In "a final unreasoning assault" he overpowers her and discovers her "secret" of "tonsils covered with membrane." The story ends with a final act of fury in which the girl attacks the doctor "while tears of defeat [blind] her eyes." One of the students we studied, Dexter, drew a picture representing the relationship between the doctor and the girl (see Figure 1). Through a stimulated recall interview that followed his drawing, he revealed the transformative effect of his process of composing on the way he thought about the story. Rather than having a fully formed picture of the characters in his head prior to drawing, Dexter said that "at the end, I understood what I was doing more than I did when I began the drawing.... I got more involved in the picture as I did it." In his initial reading, Dexter simply tried to follow the action and then eventually began "thinking about something during the story...something difficult" that helped get him involved in his reading. These "difficult" yet unarticulated problems that he thought about suggest that they occurred at the level of sense, which he then had the opportunity to develop into an articulation through the psychological tool of drawing. When he began drawing, he was uncertain about how he would depict them, knowing only that the relationship between the girl and the doctor would involve shame and control. Dexter related that the meaning of the drawing changed as the picture developed. For instance, when he started his drawing, Dexter had not been certain what the threatening figure would represent. Dexter: I wasn't really sure if it was him going to be the doctor or not until the end of the story, I mean, until the end of the drawing, because I was thinking, well, it could be this person that she, that she has imaged in her mind and uh-or this could be an analogy of diphtheria, but then I said it doesn't matter. It's just a doctor. It was going through her mind, [inaudible] but I liked to read. The first time I'd read the doctor; the second, the analogy. It's just through that one story. Interviewer: So you mean, even after you drew the face and everything, it wasn't the doctor yet? Dexter: Uh-huh. I mean it could have been a lot of things. It depends on your viewpoint of the picture, but what I was thinking is-it was the doctor and then it was an analogy of the whole attitude of the story, and then it was the, her parents' attitude, or the parents, especially her parents. For Dexter, the story took on meaning as he developed his articulation. Moreover, he continually produced provisional images-that is, articulations of his sense of the characters' relationships and their signification to him-on his drawing, which in turn enabled him to reflect and compose further. His process of meaning making, then, involved exploratory efforts to represent his sense of the story that resulted in tentative articulation, to which he assigned different meanings as his thinking about the story progressed during his continued efforts to depict it. I previously made the point that psychological tools are themselves subject to concentrically nested tool mediation. The various interpretations produced by the alternative school students illustrate this point well. The alternative school facility provided a local culture in which therapy for recovery was of primary importance. A successful student was one who advanced through a modified 12-step rehabilitation program while succeeding in course work and abiding by the institution's rules. The emphasis on therapy opened up the students' available tools for succeeding in course work. In addition, the school had only two classroom teachers, resulting in opportunities for cross-genre, cross-disciplinary, multimedia performance. Interpreting literature through art was thus legitimized in ways not typically allowed in mainstream schools. The alternative school setting illustrates the ways in which the historical grounding for reading provides a sense of what constitutes an appropriate reading of a particular text in a specific context. Bloome and Egan-Robertson (1993) stressed that "the social construction of intertextuality occurs within a cultural ideology that influences which texts may be juxtaposed and how those texts might be juxtaposed, by whom, where, and when" (p. 330). In other words, cultural values sanction the juxtaposition of some texts but not others. Schools, for instance, do not typically value an artistic text as an appropriate interpretive representation to emerge from a student's engagement with literature (Applebee, 1993). The orders of discourse described by the New London Group (1996; Fairclough, 2000) are not automatically importable to new situations but depend on socially situated values and constraints. Furthermore, the students themselves participated in a youth and drug culture in which rock music played an important role, a value that was appreciated by the teacher, John Coppock, who came from an artistic family that included musicians and dancers. John was also theoretically aligned with Gardner's (1983) theory of multiple intelligences (see Coppock, 1999). The mediational avenues through which students produced their interpretations of "The Use of Force," then, were channeled by the cultural constraints and affordances provided by the alternative school and this classroom, particularly with regard to the teacher's decision to allow the students to contribute to the classroom culture. Moreover, each student brought a vast and complex history of tool use that affected individual choices of which interpretive mode to use. Dexter, for instance, had had a severe hearing problem as a child, causing him to communicate frequently through drawing (e.g., drawing a cereal box to say what he wanted for breakfast). While biological in origin, his hearing problem created a culture within his home that legitimized drawing as a mode of expression. Tool use, then, while mediational, is also culturally mediated. As illustrated by Dexter's encoding of the story with personal meaning and composition of an idiosyncratic interpretive text, a part of his own history of relationships was played out in his drawing process and product. Indeed, his inscription of the threatening figure with several different associations in different iterations shows the ways in which these personal relationships contribute to the relationship he develops with the text when he engages with it in the transactional zone. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 1:35 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback Peter, I'm wondering if you would agree that it relates to the on-going thread on sense and meaning. Vygotsky was so focussed on developing his ideas that his sense got away from his meaning? The Whorf-Sapir Linguistic Rleativity Hypothesis that each language construes the world differently seems relevant. How is translation and real-time interpreting even possible? Of course, I'm one who thinks that interpreting what native speakers of English say and write runs into the same problems as translating from one language to the other. Second language acquisition. Mike Cole and Rene Van der Meer learned Russian as a second language. I consider myself fluent in Spanish, but rapid patter and humor make me realize how far short of fluent i am. Of course, written language is very different. Joseph Conrad, whose first language was Polish, spoke English with a very thick accent but who would know it by reading his works? Henry > On Jan 27, 2015, at 4:34 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > Annalisa, my apologies for recycling things I've already written. Perhaps the following helps with your question. From Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Vygotsky and literacy research: A methodological framework. Boston: Sense. Pp. 4-6 > > Problems in Translation > Reading extensively in Vygotskian scholarship seems critical to referencing him knowledgeably, given the challenges that Vygotsky's writing presents to the 21st Century reader. Among these challenges is the problem that most of his readers, particularly in North America, encounter him through translation. In Daniels, Cole, and Wertsch's (2007) collection of international papers outlining a Vygotskian perspective, a number of the contributors are fluent speakers of Russian. However, even those whom I consider to be conversant with Vygotsky's original writing-those whose publications are rife with references to works of Vygotsky that are only available in Russian-are cautious about their grasp of both the language and the concepts. > Michael Cole, who has spoken Russian for many decades, who lived in the for-mer Soviet Union during his internship with A. R. Luria, who served as co-editor and co-translator of Mind in Society (Vygotsky, 1978), whose leadership in the Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition has helped to shape worldwide extensions of Russian psychology, who was the founding editor of the journal Mind, Culture, and Activity, and who has produced a number of foundational works in the Vygotskian tradition, wrote in response to my inquiry that "I have been writing jointly with [Russian Natalia Gajdamaschko] precisely because I feel so strongly the need for more than simple translation help in dealing with the meta-psychology and national ethos that is the relevant context for understanding the local words" (M. Cole, personal communication). James Wertsch, who has spent considerable time in the Soviet Union, Russia, and many former Soviet states where Russian remains the lingua franca, and who has translated Vygotsky into English (e.g., Wertsch, 1981), also backs off from claims that his knowledge of Russian could be termed fluent (J. Wertsch, personal communication). > As someone whose only linkage to Vygotsky's Byelorussian roots comes through my grandparents' origins in Vygotsky's hometown of Gomel, I read the qualifiers by Cole and Wertsch as cautions regarding any claims to understanding Vygotsky for those of us who speak no Russian at all. I rely on the translations of others, including those who express limited confidence in their own fluency. Most North American readers face this same problem, and so the challenges of reading a major thinker only in translation-especially translation that spans alphabets, cultures, concepts, and other formidable barriers-are thus worth reviewing here. > At present there are abundant Vygotskian texts available to the English lan-guage reader: six volumes of collected works in publication, additional books from his oeuvre available (e.g., Vygotsky, 1971, 1997; Vygotsky & Luria, 1993), key texts subjected to multiple translations, and a major project now underway in Russia to make his entire output available to English-speaking readers. Yet Vygotsky remains a complex figure and difficult scholar to grasp, and for a variety of reasons. In his "Translator's Foreword and Acknowledgements" to The Collected Works, Volume 3, Van der Veer says, "I have not attempted to improve Vygotsky's style of writing although it was at times difficult to refrain from doing so. It is clear that Vygotsky . . . never rewrote a text for the sake of improving its style and readability. Hence the redundancy, the difficulty to follow the thread of his argument, the awkward sentences, etc." (p. v). > Meshcheryakov (2007) notes that Vygotsky produced 190 works within the ten-year span that comprised his career, many of which "were written very quickly, in almost telegraphic style. Some works remain unfinished. It is certainly possible that some of the works that were published posthumously were not yet intended for publication" (p. 155). Daniels et al. (2007) assert that "It is difficult to reconcile some of the writing from the early 1920s with that which was produced during the last 2 years of his life. These rapid changes, coupled with the fact that his work was not published in chronological order, make synthetic summaries of his work difficult" (p. 2). So in addition to the difficulty of the ideas Vygotsky produced, his rendering of them into text made for challenging reading, no matter how well-prepared the reader is. > Even those with extraordinary fluency in Vygotsky's work typically consult others to help with their understanding. Van der Veer, a native of the Netherlands, relates in his translator's introduction to the Collected Works, Volume 3 that "After I had translated the whole volume [from Russian to English], I carefully checked my translation against the German and Spanish translations of the same volume" (1997, p. v). With five languages at play in his effort to translate Vygotsky's al-ready-difficult prose and concepts (German, Spanish, Russian, English, and Dutch), Van der Veer further enlisted feedback from a host of colleagues (mostly European) in order to amend Vygotsky's "sloppy" approach to citation by includ-ing appropriate references and footnotes to provide depth, detail, and clarification to the text. > Van der Veer's (1997) meticulous approach to rendering Vygotsky into English suggests one key lesson to be learned from reading Vygotsky with any insight: that claims to understanding or implementing ideas must be undertaken with care and caution. I refer again to Van der Veer's work in underscoring the importance of reading more than just excerpts (or summaries of excerpts, or summaries of those summaries in textbooks) from Mind in Society in claiming a Vygotskian perspec-tive. In his review of an Italian translation of Thinking and Speech that post-dates any version of the text available in English, Van der Veer makes the remarkable point that > Unfortunately, neither in English nor in any other language has a reliable repub-lication of Thought and Language been available. Leaving aside the questions that can be raised concerning the original Soviet 1934 edition (Vygotsky did not see the book in print and the editor, Kolbanovsky, changed some of the wordings to make the book more palatable for the ideological leaders), we know that the later 1956 and 1982 Soviet editions were marred by many mistakes and plain falsifications. All of the existing translations into English, or any other language, took these unreliable later editions as their point of departure. As a result, readers unable to read Russian or find a copy of the original 1934 edition have had, until now, no authoritative text of Thought and Language available. (p. 83; cf. van der Veer, 1987, for a critical review of Kozulin's 1986 translation of Thought and Language, which to van der Veer is more properly translated as Thinking and Speech) > I am impressed that Van der Veer is now sufficiently fluent in at least six lan-guages to read Vygotsky and then make this judgment; I am alarmed that he nonetheless states that "Vygotsky obviously preferred principled opponents, such as Pavlov, who made their own original contribution to science and invented their own scientific vocabulary to mediocre university professors, such as the present writer, who can only summarize what others have discovered" (2007, p. 37). If I'm not sufficiently daunted to learn that Van der Veer regards himself as a relative mediocrity, I cringe yet further when I realize that even though I've been referencing Vygotsky in my own work since the early 1990s, I probably am basing my understanding on inaccurate and incomplete translations. It becomes important, then, for me and no doubt others to engage with the work of Vygotskian scholars who have read his Russian texts in order to develop a clearer grasp of the ideas that I believe I am drawing on. > If problems of direct translation of Vygotsky's work were not enough of a chal-lenge, the fact that he did not necessarily pen his own texts presents another. His magnum opus, Thinking and Speech, was published in 1934, the year he died; he dictated sections from his sickbed, no doubt contributing to the text's notorious difficulty (Zinchenko, 2007). Further, some of what is published under his name is taken from his student's lecture notes or other stenographic records, undoubtedly with gaps in transcription and reformulation in expression (e.g., a set of lectures included in the Collected Works, Volume 5: "The Crisis of the First Year," "Early Childhood," "The Crisis at Age Three," "The Crisis at Age Seven"; Vygotsky, 1998b). Making definitive claims, as do Gredler and Shields (2004), regarding what Vygotsky did and did not say, is thus a precarious undertaking that even the most reputable U. S. Vygotskian scholars should attempt with considerable caution and temperance. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2015 5:26 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback > > Wow! > > This book looks really cool! Thanks for bringing it to listserv consciousness, Peter! > > I did not know that Vygotsky was notoriously indifferent to his reader's sensibilities. I do not know what that means? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/lev-vygotsky-9781472504920/ > > > 12-18-2014 > ? > About Lev Vygotsky > > Lev Vygotsky, the great Russian psychologist, had a profound influence on educational thought. His work on the perception of art, cultural-historical theory of the mind and the zone of proximal development all had an impact on modern education. > > This text provides a succinct critical account of Vygotsky's life and work against the background of the political events and social turmoil of that time and analyses his cross-cultural research and the application of his ideas to contemporary education. Ren? van der Veer offers his own interpretation of Vygotsky as both the man and anti-man of educational philosophy, concluding that the strength of Vygotsky's legacy lies in its unfinished, open nature. > > Table Of Contents > > Foreword > Series Editor's Preface > Preface > > Introduction > > Part I: Intellectual Biography > 1. Lev Vygotsky > > Part II: Critical Exposition of Vygotsky's Work 2. Early Writings 3. Creating Cultural-historical Theory 4. The Zone of Proximal Development 5. Cross-cultural Education > > Part III: The Reception, Influence and Relevance of Vygotsky's Work Today 6. Contemporary Educational Research 7. Conclusions > > Bibliography > Name Index > Subject Index > > Reviews > > "In this concise intellectual biography of L. S. Vygotsky, eminent Vygotskian authority Ren? van der Veer has written an accessible account of the major periods of Vygotsky's career, reviewing the development of Vygotsky's thinking in plain and often witty language, a service of immeasurable importance, given Vygotsky's notorious indifference to his readers' sensibilities... This volume is straightforward and edifying enough for undergraduates, and stimulating and informative enough for those who have been immersed in Vygotskian scholarship for many decades." - Peter Smagorinsky, The University of Georgia, USA, > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Tue Jan 27 14:04:21 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 22:04:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: sense, meaning and inner aspect of word In-Reply-To: <54C71F43.1000903@mira.net> References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> <0A796E27-C88F-47FA-BAA2-7EB7D3AF263C@gmail.com> <54C71F43.1000903@mira.net> Message-ID: On Jan 27, 2015, at 12:16 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > I did a search on "Thinking and Speech" for all the uses of the word "inner". 283 of the 329 of them are "inner speech" and all the others are referring to mental or psychological, and then there's "inner aspect of a word." Without wanting to get blokey, it seems to me that these paragraphs in Chapter One of T&L are very clear: "However, what is such a unit, which cannot be further resolved and in which are inherently contained the properties in verbal thinking as whole? To us it seems that this unit can be found in the internal [inner, interior] aspect [side] of the word [??????????? ??????? ?????], in its meaning [????????]. "This inner side [?????????? ???????] of the word, until now, has hardly undergone any special studies. Word meaning [???????? ?????] was dissolved in the sea of all the other conceptions (??????????????, predstavlenii?) of our consciousness or all other acts (?????, acts) of our thinking, just as sound, torn from meaning [????????], was dissolved in the sea of all of those remaining sounds existing in nature. Therefore in exactly the same way that, with respect to the sound of human speech, contemporary psychology cannot say anything which would be specific to the sound of human speech as such, so too psychology in the field of the study of verbal meaning [?????????? ????????] cannot say anything besides the facts that characterize in identical measure verbal meaning [????????? ????????] and all the other ideas and thoughts [????????????? ? ?????] of our consciousness. "Thus the matter proceeded in associative psychology, and so, in general, it proceeds in contemporary structural psychology. In the word we always recognize only one side, that which is turned towards us. The other, the inside, has ever remained and remains today unstudied and unknown as the other side of the moon. Meanwhile it is precisely in this, the other side, that the possibility lies of resolving the problems that interest us concerning the relation of thinking and speech, for it is precisely here, in word meaning [???????? ?????], that we find tied together the knot of that unity [??????? ???? ???? ????????] that we call verbal thinking [??????? ?????????]." Martin From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jan 27 14:06:10 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 14:06:10 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Youth and Vido Narrative Project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Greg. I will pass along the advice. I was pretty certain that many people were engaged in similar lines of work and had worked out appropriatable technological platforms. Guess not. Using word press as the most advanced medium might be the answer I guess, but seems sort of suprising. mike On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Mike, > Norma Mendoza-Denton (UCLA) is doing some very interesting work studying > the platform of Youtube and the role of the videos and subsequent comments > on Latin@ gangsta rap videos and how they construct various kinds of > publics (and btw, I wouldn't be surprised if Youtube can't do everything > that Morten would like to do, but maybe not). > > Here is a description of a presentation of Norma's work: > > http://hrc.anu.edu.au/sites/hrc.anu.edu.au/files/u78/Mendoza-Denton%20flyer.pdf > > Perhaps a bit too linguistic-y for this audience's tastes? > -greg > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 11:24 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > Michael's quite reasonable question about the purposes of the folks > seeking > > information about cheap/free online facilities that engage > > youth in video production, exposition, and reflective discussion incited > me > > to contact Morten Nissen, for whom the query was sent, > > and ask if it would be ok for me to post his entire note to me. > > > > I think that the project he is undertaking along with Catherine Hassa, a > > LCHC alumna who comes to the project from a Social Studies of Science > > perspective, will be of interest to many on xmca, even if youth and new > > media is not your thing. > > > > Morten has a very informative article in Andy's volume on Projects that I > > think it would be great for XMCAers to discuss. It gave me a lot to think > > about that has echoes of our discussion of the LSV/ANL discussion, but > with > > Morten articulating a critical perspective that puts > > LSV under the microscope, along with communities of practice. > > > > Anyway, here is the message Morten sent me. If its not of interest, BAIL! > > > > mike > > > > *Fra:* lchcmike@gmail.com [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com] *P? vegne af *mike > > cole > > *Sendt:* 22. januar 2015 18:31 > > *Til:* Morten Nissen > > *Emne:* Re: Have you received MCA mail? > > > > > > > > Nice to chat with you. hope you scored a goal! I will follow up. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Morten Nissen wrote: > > > > Dear Mike > > > > Here?s a little bit on the theme of prototypical narratives. Attached is > an > > article to appear in Dialogic Pedagogy that includes an argument for > > Prototypical Narratives, but this should be read with my chapter in the > > Blunden book, for our interest centers on artifacts, too ? as you can see > > also in the description of the PhD course with Emily Martin below. > > > > As mentioned, I?ll talk with Cathrine and return about your nice idea of > a > > seminar. > > > > Warmly, > > > > Morten > > > > > > Performing Beyond Representation, or: Prototypical Narratives - the stuff > > (:artifacts) that dreams (:theories) are made ofPhD course with Emily > > Martin, Morten Nissen, and Line Lerche M?rck > > > > > > > > This course takes as its starting point the fact that we, as researchers, > > increasingly are not only sampling data, but take part in producing > > narratives as somehow prototypical, often involving ourselves in > > unconventional ways, and carried by genres and model artifacts that we > > barely understand or control (e.g. blogs or videos on shifting websites). > > > > > > > > Why call this prototypical narratives? In the philosophy of language, a > > prototype is a concrete exemplar that is used to represent a generality. > In > > the Science and Technology Studies (STS) tradition, this has been taken > up > > with a focus on how the exemplar is produced and handled as artifact in a > > situated practice, and how its status as prototypical, or potentially > > standard, is realized and reproduced in concrete networks of practices. > The > > narrative approach in the social sciences and humanities has highlighted > > the sequential and contextual ordering of processes and events as > > meaningful in existential and practical terms. By its logical form, > > narrative proposes singular occurrences as meaningful and generally > > relevant. Taken together, prototypical narratives are narratives that > > designate certain meaningful processes, events and practices as > > prototypical by capturing them in text, video, or other media, broadly > with > > a view to relevance for guiding and reflecting practice. > > > > This fusion of narrativity and STS seems relevant since a) we are > > increasingly required to provide concrete alternatives to the > > empiricist-rationalist format of knowledge that is embodied in the > > infrastructures of standardization through which practices are ruled, b) > > the cultural genres of narrative performance and production evolve > rapidly, > > especially in terms of expanded technologies and challenges to the > > private/public divisions, and this means that c) anyway we produce and > use > > model artifacts that take us well beyond what we can easily handle > > (ethically and methodologically) as 'data' in research or 'case > materials' > > in teaching. > > > > > > > > This new situation requires us to reconceptualize classic issues such as > > > > ? *Temporality*: The way we recreate the past to feed hopes for the > > future is accelerating; historicity is overtaking any foundations; > > > > ? *Reality*: With hyper-reality and reality TV, representation is no > > longer secondary to its reference; we co-create the events we call in to > > witness our stories; > > > > ? *Performance*: Could it be that ?citation? of (e.g. gender or > > disease) standards increasingly fuse with producing and transforming > them? > > > > ? *Subjectivity*: It is increasingly ourselves that we perform and > > recreate, yet we tell of ourselves in forms that assume other > objectivities > > (such as those of drama, TV or art); > > > > ? *Logic*: Beyond the academic text, who knows how research > questions, > > arguments or findings might look? > > > > We have been pondering these ideas for a while, reflecting on the videos > > and songs of former gang-members and drug users, ?curating? galleries, > even > > confessing our past on websites. We are now so privileged as to have > > persuaded Emily Martin to help us understand it. Emily Martin is > professor > > of Anthropology at New York University, famous for feminist and science > > studies, and deservedly praised for wonderful works such as *Bipolar > > Expeditions *from 2009. > > > > > > > > Besides academic presentations, the course will take up singular > instances > > of what could be called prototypical narratives from the research > practices > > and networks of teachers and students. > > > > > > > > We suggest a 4 days course in the fall of 2015. The precise time will be > > settled later. > > > > > > > > > > > > *Morten Nissen* > > > > PhD, Dr. Psych. > > > > Professor > > > > *Department of Education* > > > > Aarhus University > > Tuborgvej 164 > > > > 2400 Copenhagen NV > > > > > > > > Tlf: +45 30282418 > > www.edu.au.dk/ > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Jan 27 14:14:17 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 22:14:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Shpet & principium cognescenti Message-ID: There seems to be a clear parallel between Vygotsky's use of the formulation "in itself, for others, for itself" and Shpet's referencing theological principium cognescenti which according to my brief browsing are three principles: principium essendi, principium cognoscendi externum, principium cognoscendi internum. Is anyone here familiar with the etymology of these principles and their bearing on Vygotsky's work? Is there more than a superficial resemblance? Huw From glassman.13@osu.edu Tue Jan 27 14:21:51 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 22:21:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Youth and Vido Narrative Project In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F908B7AA@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Right now I think it's more about the technique in making online videos rather than the technology (Youtube is just a distribution/comment platform) - there's some more intelligent way to say that but I can think of it . Basic technology is pervasive - I mean you can do it with your smart phone. The issue is whether you use expressive narration, music etc. or simply do something straight forward. Making really good videos is a talent to some extent, but I also think some of the more popular online videos (secretly or not so secretly) use video consultants. It's just not that easy to do. A discussion on Youtube videos has spontaneously erupted in one of the classes I teach and people are suggesting much of it is about having your message meet the Zeitgeist of the Youtube audience at the moment: you have thousands of people trying to do that daily and a few break through, not that different than anybody else, there is just no gatekeeper. I think there would be tremendous differences based on motivation of the individuals making/posting the videos. Is it a desire for self-expression? Is it exhibitionism? Is it a desire to catch on like Pewdiepie (I have no idea) who a student claims is worth 7 million dollars. I suppose this is one of the goals of the proposed workshop. But I do think we spend too much time thinking about applications and not enough about the human to human transactions behind the use of those applications (a lot of philosophical reasons behind that I think - that might fit into other threads going on right now). Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of mike cole [mcole@ucsd.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 5:06 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Youth and Vido Narrative Project Thanks Greg. I will pass along the advice. I was pretty certain that many people were engaged in similar lines of work and had worked out appropriatable technological platforms. Guess not. Using word press as the most advanced medium might be the answer I guess, but seems sort of suprising. mike On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Mike, > Norma Mendoza-Denton (UCLA) is doing some very interesting work studying > the platform of Youtube and the role of the videos and subsequent comments > on Latin@ gangsta rap videos and how they construct various kinds of > publics (and btw, I wouldn't be surprised if Youtube can't do everything > that Morten would like to do, but maybe not). > > Here is a description of a presentation of Norma's work: > > http://hrc.anu.edu.au/sites/hrc.anu.edu.au/files/u78/Mendoza-Denton%20flyer.pdf > > Perhaps a bit too linguistic-y for this audience's tastes? > -greg > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 11:24 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > Michael's quite reasonable question about the purposes of the folks > seeking > > information about cheap/free online facilities that engage > > youth in video production, exposition, and reflective discussion incited > me > > to contact Morten Nissen, for whom the query was sent, > > and ask if it would be ok for me to post his entire note to me. > > > > I think that the project he is undertaking along with Catherine Hassa, a > > LCHC alumna who comes to the project from a Social Studies of Science > > perspective, will be of interest to many on xmca, even if youth and new > > media is not your thing. > > > > Morten has a very informative article in Andy's volume on Projects that I > > think it would be great for XMCAers to discuss. It gave me a lot to think > > about that has echoes of our discussion of the LSV/ANL discussion, but > with > > Morten articulating a critical perspective that puts > > LSV under the microscope, along with communities of practice. > > > > Anyway, here is the message Morten sent me. If its not of interest, BAIL! > > > > mike > > > > *Fra:* lchcmike@gmail.com [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com] *P? vegne af *mike > > cole > > *Sendt:* 22. januar 2015 18:31 > > *Til:* Morten Nissen > > *Emne:* Re: Have you received MCA mail? > > > > > > > > Nice to chat with you. hope you scored a goal! I will follow up. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Morten Nissen wrote: > > > > Dear Mike > > > > Here?s a little bit on the theme of prototypical narratives. Attached is > an > > article to appear in Dialogic Pedagogy that includes an argument for > > Prototypical Narratives, but this should be read with my chapter in the > > Blunden book, for our interest centers on artifacts, too ? as you can see > > also in the description of the PhD course with Emily Martin below. > > > > As mentioned, I?ll talk with Cathrine and return about your nice idea of > a > > seminar. > > > > Warmly, > > > > Morten > > > > > > Performing Beyond Representation, or: Prototypical Narratives - the stuff > > (:artifacts) that dreams (:theories) are made ofPhD course with Emily > > Martin, Morten Nissen, and Line Lerche M?rck > > > > > > > > This course takes as its starting point the fact that we, as researchers, > > increasingly are not only sampling data, but take part in producing > > narratives as somehow prototypical, often involving ourselves in > > unconventional ways, and carried by genres and model artifacts that we > > barely understand or control (e.g. blogs or videos on shifting websites). > > > > > > > > Why call this prototypical narratives? In the philosophy of language, a > > prototype is a concrete exemplar that is used to represent a generality. > In > > the Science and Technology Studies (STS) tradition, this has been taken > up > > with a focus on how the exemplar is produced and handled as artifact in a > > situated practice, and how its status as prototypical, or potentially > > standard, is realized and reproduced in concrete networks of practices. > The > > narrative approach in the social sciences and humanities has highlighted > > the sequential and contextual ordering of processes and events as > > meaningful in existential and practical terms. By its logical form, > > narrative proposes singular occurrences as meaningful and generally > > relevant. Taken together, prototypical narratives are narratives that > > designate certain meaningful processes, events and practices as > > prototypical by capturing them in text, video, or other media, broadly > with > > a view to relevance for guiding and reflecting practice. > > > > This fusion of narrativity and STS seems relevant since a) we are > > increasingly required to provide concrete alternatives to the > > empiricist-rationalist format of knowledge that is embodied in the > > infrastructures of standardization through which practices are ruled, b) > > the cultural genres of narrative performance and production evolve > rapidly, > > especially in terms of expanded technologies and challenges to the > > private/public divisions, and this means that c) anyway we produce and > use > > model artifacts that take us well beyond what we can easily handle > > (ethically and methodologically) as 'data' in research or 'case > materials' > > in teaching. > > > > > > > > This new situation requires us to reconceptualize classic issues such as > > > > ? *Temporality*: The way we recreate the past to feed hopes for the > > future is accelerating; historicity is overtaking any foundations; > > > > ? *Reality*: With hyper-reality and reality TV, representation is no > > longer secondary to its reference; we co-create the events we call in to > > witness our stories; > > > > ? *Performance*: Could it be that ?citation? of (e.g. gender or > > disease) standards increasingly fuse with producing and transforming > them? > > > > ? *Subjectivity*: It is increasingly ourselves that we perform and > > recreate, yet we tell of ourselves in forms that assume other > objectivities > > (such as those of drama, TV or art); > > > > ? *Logic*: Beyond the academic text, who knows how research > questions, > > arguments or findings might look? > > > > We have been pondering these ideas for a while, reflecting on the videos > > and songs of former gang-members and drug users, ?curating? galleries, > even > > confessing our past on websites. We are now so privileged as to have > > persuaded Emily Martin to help us understand it. Emily Martin is > professor > > of Anthropology at New York University, famous for feminist and science > > studies, and deservedly praised for wonderful works such as *Bipolar > > Expeditions *from 2009. > > > > > > > > Besides academic presentations, the course will take up singular > instances > > of what could be called prototypical narratives from the research > practices > > and networks of teachers and students. > > > > > > > > We suggest a 4 days course in the fall of 2015. The precise time will be > > settled later. > > > > > > > > > > > > *Morten Nissen* > > > > PhD, Dr. Psych. > > > > Professor > > > > *Department of Education* > > > > Aarhus University > > Tuborgvej 164 > > > > 2400 Copenhagen NV > > > > > > > > Tlf: +45 30282418 > > www.edu.au.dk/ > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Jan 27 14:31:09 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 14:31:09 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huw, I can not answer this question but I am adding a brief entry from "the Encyclopedia Of Philosophy": on Gustav Shpet (1879?1937) Shpet, a professor of philosophy at the University of Moscow, introduced Husserlian transcendental phenomenology into Russia. Additionally, he wrote extensively on aesthetics, hermeneutics, the history of Russian philosophy and the philosophy of language. During the Stalinist years in Russia he was condemned as being an idealist in philosophy and a counter-revolutionary in politics. The depth and breadth of his numerous studies stand as a testament to the philosophic spirit in Russia during the waning years of tsarism. Table of Contents 1. Life 2. Philosophy 3. References and Further Reading 1. Life Gustav Gustavovich Shpet was born in Kiev in April 1879. Late in life during the Stalinist period, he sought to emphasize his humble origins as the illegitimate son of a seamstress. In fact, his maternal grandfather appears to have been a member of the Polish gentry. No information is available on his father. Whether he had any religious upbringing is unclear. On his university registration form he gave his religion as Lutheran, although his mother was, based on family testimony, Catholic. Upon finishing studies at a gymnasium (secondary school) in Kiev Shpet enrolled at the university there in 1898. Also at this time he became involved in a Marxist circle, although the degree of his active participation is unclear. In any case, his involvement resulted in expulsion from the university. After a relatively short time, however, he was permitted back to attend classes. From that time onward, Shpet always maintained a respectable distance from philosophical Marxism, while apparently retaining a measured sympathy for its socio-economic ideals. After finishing his studies in 1906 he taught for a time at a Kiev gymnasium but followed his former teacher Georgij Chelpanov to Moscow in 1907 upon the latter's succession to the philosophy chair formerly held by Sergej Trubeckoj. In Moscow Shpet continued his studies at the university and worked in Chelpanov's newly established psychology institute. In addition, he taught at a number of educational institutions in the city. During the summer months of 1910 and 1911 Shpet went abroad to Paris, Edinburgh and various locales in Germany in connection with the psychology institute and his own research for a dissertation. During one of these trips he first encountered Husserl, but it was not until his stay in Goettingen during the 1912-13 academic year that he came firmly under Husserl's influence. Attending Husserl's lectures and seminars at this time, Shpet became acquainted with the nascent ideas of transcendental phenomenology and, in particular, with those that would eventually become known as *Ideen II*. When *Ideen I* was published in 1913 Shpet amazingly mastered in short order the change in Husserl's orientation. The next several years were arguably the most philosophically productive of his life, producing in rapid succession a series of works on epistemology, the history of philosophy and the history of Russian philosophy. In 1915 he wrote a large study of the 19th century Moscow philosophy professor Pamfil Yurkevich, followed the next year by the defense and the publication of his dissertation *Istorija kak problema logika* (*History as a Problem of Logic*) and then the writing of *Germenevtika i ee problemy* (*Hermeneutics and Its Problems*), which languished in manuscript for decades. His work, however, as the first propagandist, if you will, in Russia for Husserl's transcendental phenomenology and philosophy as a rigorous science is perhaps that for which he is best known, at least in Western philosophical circles. Although the Husserlian influence waned over the years, due at least in part to his increasing isolation within Soviet Russia, Shpet produced within a few short months of its appearance in 1913 the first book-length study of Husserl's *Ideen I*. In 1917 and 1918 he edited the philosophical yearbook *Mysl' i slovo*, which also contained valuable contributions by Shpet himself and amplified his own position vis-a-vis Husserlian phenomenology. In 1918 he was appointed to a professorship at Moscow University and in the following year he succeeded to the chair held by Leo Lopatin, who had recently died. Despite his varied intellectual activities on many fronts during the early years of the Bolshevik regime, Shpet, as an openly non-Marxist intellectual, could not be permitted to retain his teaching position long. His name appeared on Lenin's August 1922 listing of those to be exiled from Russia, a list that included numerous prominent philosophers, such as Berdyaev, Lossky and Lapshin. Shpet, however, successfully appealed to Lunacharskij, the Soviet cultural minister, with whom he was acquainted from his student days in Kiev, to have his name removed. In 1923 with the creation of the Russian--later State--Academy for Cultural Studies, Shpet was tapped to be its vice-president. There he continued his scholarly work, albeit slightly redirected or, perhaps more accurately, re-focused away from pure philosophy. Again despite his prolific output and that of his colleagues, the Academy, though at least nominally headed by a Marxist, was closed in 1929. Over the next several years he made his living chiefly by preparing translations from such authors as Dickens and Byron, and he also participated in the preparation of a Russian edition of Shakespeare. On 14 March 1935 Shpet, along with several other former colleagues from the State Academy, was arrested, charged with anti-soviet activities and sentenced to five years internal exile. Later that year the place of exile was changed to Tomsk, a university city in Siberia, where Shpet prepared a new Russian translation of Hegel's *Phenomenology of Spirit*. On 27 October 1937 he was again arrested and charged with belonging to a monarchist organization. Recently uncovered documents from the former KGB headquarters in Tomsk indicate that Shpet was executed on 16 November 1937. 2. Philosophy The nascent secondary literature is still at a very early stage. Nevertheless, already three areas of disagreement exist concerning: a) the influences on Shpet's philosophy; b) the number of stages in the development of his thought; and c) Shpet's lasting contribution to philosophy. With regard to the first area, some have tended to emphasize the phenomenological aspect of his thought and, consequently, have stressed the Husserlian influence. Others have noted the influence of Hegel, while still others have sought to demonstrate Shpet's indebtedness to the Russian metaphysical tradition. To a large degree, however, the depiction of the dominant influence on Shpet has been determined by one's response to the third area, namely, his contribution to philosophy. During the Soviet era, Russian scholars saw Shpet almost exclusively as an historian of Russian philosophy. To the extent that his ideas at that time received recognition in the West he was viewed as *the* Russian disciple of Husserl. Today both inside Russia and in Western circles Shpet is receiving attention as a phenomenologist of language, if not *the* first to study language from within a broadly phenomenological perspective. In any case, Shpet's philosophical development can be broken into at least three periods. Although one contemporary scholar (A. Haardt) holds the first of these to range from 1898-1905, no writings have emerged from these very youthful years and certainly Shpet published nothing at this time. What little information we have comes from an autobiographical remark in his huge 1916 thesis. Thus, seeing his Marxist infatuation as a stage in Shpet's thought serves no useful purpose. Whatever was the nature of his Marxism, already by 1903 Shpet felt an affinity toward idealism and, in particular, saw the former as riddled with what he thought were epistemological and methodological errors. In his thesis for Kiev University, published under the title "The Problem of Causality in Hume and Kant: Did Kant Answer Hume's Doubt?," Shpet writing under the unmistakable influence of Chelpanov and the "Kiev School of Kant-Interpretation," fundamentally sided with a phenomenalist reading of Kant. In addition, referring explicitly to the writings of the Baden School of neo-Kantianism, Shpet cautiously held that although Kant had demonstrated the "real necessity" of a priori cognitions, he had not proved their "logical necessity." "We must recognize, therefore, that Kant succeeded in proving the real necessity of a priori categories. Nevertheless, he did not prove their logical necessity. " (1, p. 202) That is, the Kantian a priori categories, including causality, must be postulated so as to account for objectively valid knowledge. In this way Shpet accords belief in the categories, and thus practical reason, a primacy in and over epistemology. Therefore, based simply on the textual evidence available to the contemporary scholar for analysis, the first period in Shpet's thought is marked by a neo-Kantian phase extending from circa 1903-1912 and is the only period conceptually quite distinct from the others. The exact evolution of Shpet's ideas immediately after moving to Moscow is unclear. What is clear, however, is that he irrevocably distanced himself from neo-Kantianism and came under the influence of Lopatin and the works of the recently deceased S. Trubeckoj. From them, as well perhaps as through his reading of Vladimir Solovyov, Shpet began to employ the unmistakeable terminology and think philosophically in the categories and problems of Platonism, particularly that variant then dominant at Moscow University. In addition to criticizing psychologism--and, indeed, all "isms"-- for its failure to grasp the psyche as a "living whole," Shpet began to see philosophy itself as based on the immediate data of reflection. "The spirit of our philosophy is that of a living,concrete and integral philosophy based on the reliable data of inner experience. " (2, p.264.) Despite the obvious pedigree of this conception in, on the one hand, the Moscow metaphysicians, and, on the other, James, Dilthey, Stumpf and the early Husserl--as Shpet himself acknowledged--we should not disregard the fact that Chelpanov also stressed the importance of introspection as a technique in psychology, albeit bereft of metaphysical interpretation. The next period in Shpet's philosophy is that for which he is best known. In *Appearance and Sense*, published in mid-1914, Shpet provided, on the one hand, a summarization of many points covered in Husserl's *Ideen I*. Yet, on the other hand, Shpet sought to invoke Husserl's transcendental turn for his own purposes, while cautiously noting what he saw as deficiencies in the latter. Like Husserl, Shpet was willing to characterize phenomenology as the fundamental science and, again like Husserl, Shpet made extensive use of eidetic intuition. This reliance on the Husserlian technique of "ideation" is one that Shpet continued to value years later even after coming under political attack for his idealism. Husserl and Shpet differed, however, on the goal of such procedures and methods. Whereas the former sought to construct a presuppositionless philosophy, a "science" of consciousness and cognition, Shpet saw philosophy as ultimately a study of being, of which cognizing is but one form among many. Modern philosophy's error is found in its concentration on the forms of cognition, rather than on cognition as such. In modern parlance we could say philosophy has failed to distinguish the forest from the trees. The subject-matter of phenomenology, as Shpet conceived it, is the study of cognition, qua a mode of being. The major oversight of modern philosophy is not to have seen the non-empirical and non-actual nature of the cognizing subject. Of the several articles Shpet published immediately subsequent to the appearance of *Appearance and Sense* two in particular stand out: "Consciousness and Its Proprietor" and "Wisdom or Reason." In the first of these, which appeared in 1916, Shpet already addressed an issue that would later prove to be a major bone of contention among the next generation of phenomenologists. Developing ideas enunciated by Solovyov during the last years of his life, Shpet asked who "owns" or "possesses" the unity of consciousness. Whereas he is willing, pace Hume, to concede on the issue of such a unity, it is no one's, i.e., it has no proprietor. We are led astray in seeking such a proprietor by an inaccurate analogy drawn from our everyday language. "Ultimately, it is as impossible to say *whose* consciousness as it is to say *whose* space, *whose* air, even though everybody is convinced that the air which he breathes is *his* air, and the space which he occupies is *his* space. " (4, p. 205) In direct opposition to Husserl, whom he accuses of betraying the "principle of all principles," stated in *Ideen I*, Shpet finds no "pure Ego." What unity there is certainly cannot serve as an epistemological guarantee, and it certainly cannot be called a Self or an Ego. In "Wisdom or Reason" from 1917 Shpet presents what may well be the first attempt to depict the phenomenological idea, or what we today often view as that idea, as the telos of Western philosophy. Noticeably, however, Shpet never mentions phenomenology as such; instead he uses the locution "philosophy as pure knowledge" and even "philosophy as knowledge." In a precise manner, Parmenides established the proper object of philosophy and showed the path along which philosophy is directed to solve the problem posed by that object. (5, p. 7) This itself can be seen as a distancing from the Husserlian influence in that Shpet traces *his* conception back to the Greeks and indeed to Parmenides. In any case, Shpet holds that philosophy proceeds through three stages (and as in Hegel's *Phenomenology* whether these are purely logical or chronological as well is arguable): from wisdom then on to metaphysics before finally arriving at rigorous science or knowledge. Unlike positivistic "scientific philosophy," which seeks to copy the methodology of an arbitrarily chosen natural science or bases itself on results attained in natural science, philosophy as pure knowledge grounds the specific sciences. The recent emergence and publication of Shpet's hitherto virtually inaccessible 1918 work *Hermeneutics and Its Problems*, in both the original Russian and a German translation, has drawn notable international attention. In it Shpet presents a history of hermeneutics ranging from the Greeks to the early 20th century, seeing the work of Dilthey and Husserl, as represented in the first "Logical Investigation," as the highest point yet attained. Throughout this period and later Shpet maintained that his work was a continuation of that direction in philosophy associated with Brentano and Husserl. Where they erred was in forgetting the social dimension. There can and do exist forms of collective or socio-cultural consciousness. An element of such consciousness is language, more specifically words. The understanding plays an analogous role in the grasping of sense, for which words act as the "material bearer," as sense perception does in the individual's representational consciousness. Shpet developed these themes at some length in his *Aesthetic Fragments* from 1922/23 and his *Inner Form of the Word* from 1927. In addition, Shpet shortly before and after the Bolshevik Revolution devoted considerable attention to the history of Russian philosophy, publishing a number of valuable studies studded with numerous caustic comments on the poverty of philosophy in his homeland. 3. References and Further Reading - "Problema prichinosti u Juma i Kanta. Otvetil li Kant na somnenija Juma?" ("The Problem of Causality in Hume and Kant. Did Kant Answer Hume's Doubt?"), *Kievskie universitetskie izvestija*, 1907, #5. - "Odin put' psikhologii i kuda on vedet" ("One Path in Psychology and Where It Leads"), *Filosofskij sbornik L. M. Lopatinu ot Moskovskogo Psikhologicheskogo Obshchestva*, Moscow, 1912, pp. 245-264. - *Javlenie i smysl*, Moscow, 1914. [English translation: *Appearance and Sense*, trans. by Thomas Nemeth, Kluwer Academic Publishers: Dordrecht, 1991] - "Soznanie i ego sobstvennik" ("Consciousness and Its Proprietor"), *Sbornik statej po filosofii, posvjashchennyj G. I. Chelpanovu*, Moscow, 1916, pp. 156-210. - *Istorija kak problema logiki. Kriticheskie i metodologicheskie issledovanija. Chast' I: Materialy* (*History as a Problem of Logic. Critical and Methodological Investigations. Part I: Materials*), Moscow, 1916. - "Mudrost' ili razum" ("Wisdom or Reason"), *Mysl' i slovo*, vyp. 1, 1917, pp. 1-69. - *Ocherk razvitija russkoj filosofii. Chast 1*. (*An Outline of the Development of Russian Philosophy. Part 1*.), Petrograd, 1922. - *Esteticheskie fragmenty* (*Aesthetic Fragments*), I. Petergrad 1922. II, III. Petrograd 1923. - *Vnutrennjaja forma slova. Etjudy i variacii na temy Humbol'dta* (*Inner Form of the Word. Studies and Variations on a Humboldtian Theme*), Moscow, 1927. Author Information Thomas Nemeth Email: t_nemeth@yahoo.com U. S. A On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:14 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > There seems to be a clear parallel between Vygotsky's use of the > formulation "in itself, for others, for itself" and Shpet's referencing > theological principium cognescenti which according to my brief browsing are > three principles: > principium essendi, principium cognoscendi externum, principium cognoscendi > internum. > > Is anyone here familiar with the etymology of these principles and their > bearing on Vygotsky's work? Is there more than a superficial resemblance? > > Huw > From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jan 27 14:31:49 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 22:31:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Robotic farmhands Message-ID: <1422397908734.60422@unm.edu> Hello all, Well, it seems the robots will be taking care of our food more and more. I figure it means less illegal farmworkers? I don't know what the implications are, but I'm sure there are many. How will these tools change how we think about food? about big agro? http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1325149 Annalisa ? From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Jan 27 14:54:34 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 14:54:34 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: sense, meaning and inner aspect of word In-Reply-To: References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> <0A796E27-C88F-47FA-BAA2-7EB7D3AF263C@gmail.com> <54C71F43.1000903@mira.net> Message-ID: Martin, Andy A question I am left with is that on the one hand "meaning" is the more stable generalizable aspect and sense is the more encompassing phenomena [as I read Andy's post] whereas on the other hand as Vladimir Zinchenko argues the relation is more reciprocal and sense permeates or "infuses" meaning and equally meaning permeates or "infuses" sense. [the Mobius strip metaphor] In Zinchenko's use of the metaphor of the triangle, we can put the terms word, action, and image in each corner of the triangle. The question Zinchenko asks is which of these processes is at the apex mediating the other two, Zinchenko asks us to imagine a rotating triangle where any one of the three processes can be imagined mediating the other two and the circling rotation of the triangle implies action infusing image and word, AND implies image infusing action and word AND implying the word infuses action and image. What is at the apex is a fluid flowing interrelationship. I hope I am understanding Zinchenko as he intended. What is clear is that both Vygotsky and Zinchenko and Shpet were concerned with word meaning and inner form Larry On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > On Jan 27, 2015, at 12:16 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > I did a search on "Thinking and Speech" for all the uses of the word > "inner". 283 of the 329 of them are "inner speech" and all the others are > referring to mental or psychological, and then there's "inner aspect of a > word." > > Without wanting to get blokey, it seems to me that these paragraphs in > Chapter One of T&L are very clear: > > "However, what is such a unit, which cannot be further resolved and in > which are inherently contained the properties in verbal thinking as whole? > To us it seems that this unit can be found in the internal [inner, > interior] aspect [side] of the word [??????????? ??????? ?????], in its > meaning [????????]. > > "This inner side [?????????? ???????] of the word, until now, has hardly > undergone any special studies. Word meaning [???????? ?????] was dissolved > in the sea of all the other conceptions (??????????????, predstavlenii?) of > our consciousness or all other acts (?????, acts) of our thinking, just as > sound, torn from meaning [????????], was dissolved in the sea of all of > those remaining sounds existing in nature. Therefore in exactly the same > way that, with respect to the sound of human speech, contemporary > psychology cannot say anything which would be specific to the sound of > human speech as such, so too psychology in the field of the study of verbal > meaning [?????????? ????????] cannot say anything besides the facts that > characterize in identical measure verbal meaning [????????? ????????] and > all the other ideas and thoughts [????????????? ? ?????] of our > consciousness. > > "Thus the matter proceeded in associative psychology, and so, in general, > it proceeds in contemporary structural psychology. In the word we always > recognize only one side, that which is turned towards us. The other, the > inside, has ever remained and remains today unstudied and unknown as the > other side of the moon. Meanwhile it is precisely in this, the other side, > that the possibility lies of resolving the problems that interest us > concerning the relation of thinking and speech, for it is precisely here, > in word meaning [???????? ?????], that we find tied together the knot of > that unity [??????? ???? ???? ????????] that we call verbal thinking > [??????? ?????????]." > > > > Martin > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jan 27 15:34:05 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 23:34:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback In-Reply-To: References: <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1422401645485.14058@unm.edu> Hi Peter! Thanks for your very robust and bursting reply. Here's my reply in kind and kindness. I do not disagree with anything said about the difficulty we all face when we face the texts we have inherited from Vygotsky. So for this train of thought pulling away from the quay, I'd ask you leave that concern on the platform. What I troubles me, I suppose, is the notion that he "was indifferent to his reader's sensibilities." I don't believe that that is a fair representation of the historical facts, and perhaps all we are doing is arguing about interpretations of the history and the facts, and that is certainly fair game. However, what I see in Vygotsky, when I think about Vygotsky and his texts, is a great comet in the sky ready to burn out at any time and the faster he writes the brighter he burns. What I cannot help but see, employing my top-down-thinking sensibility, is that Vygotsky may not have been interested in inner speech of children _just because_ it was an intriguing phenomenon uncovered by Piaget, that it was the "cool hot topic," as we might say in today's vernacular. Could it be that Vygotsky had a *personal* interest in inner speech? that this was the shape of his own thought? an awareness and understanding of his own way of thinking? Perhaps the writing that he left behind was not written down as indifference to his readers, but because he knew he lived in a time and space in which the light might go out in his life at anytime. Perhaps the man didn't want to lose that thought which would lead to the very next thought and the train that would reveal more amazing vistas of the countryside of thoughts. In other words, the man was in a hurry to see a man about a dog. Or if I might decode that metaphor as I mean it: all his own work began as inner speech, as a technique to capture his own thought. The written fragments we have before us are archeological remains of these flights of thought. He wasn't indifferent, it's just he wanted to interact privately with himself, a kind of inner speech. As I write this myself I suddenly thought, perhaps the writing was nothing more than a tool to help him think, like the Einstein and the chalkboard. And maybe when Vygotsky first began the practice of writing down his inner speech, he thought he'd have more time to decode, but as it became nearer the day for his comet to leave our orbit, he couldn't stop the train to revisit past stops, the train was fast in motion and what motivated him was to get to his destination rather than considering where he'd already been. Late trains have few opportunities to dilly-dally. Is it possible for us to look at his commentary about inner speech in children, and then "decode" his own writing? I don't know! But it was a thought of mine I'd had while reading your text. I also wonder, naively of course, whether the shards of his writing are actually carelessness, but "formlessness" ? Here's another emerging thought: Could this formlessness have been a possible obfuscation for political reasons? To my mind, if that were true, such political reasons cannot be justly rendered as indifference, but a whole heck of a lot of care and carefulness. These are not claims I make strongly, but rather thinking out loud, to offer that Vygotsky did not seem to me in any way a muscular academic speaking to his own tribe with a devil-may-care attitude for everyone else. What saddens me is that your phrase promulgates that kind of idea, at least it did for me, and this possibly creates further obfuscation, something of which we require less not more. My heartfelt wish is that you might reflect on other possible reasons why the writing came to us in the forms that they have. At first we can think, "Confounded these hieroglyphics!" or we can instead look closer and realize there is actually a Rosetta stone before us. If so, it means we have some decoding work to do, and that is just the way it is. But we also have a responsibility to make those who come after us understand why it is Vygotsky must be handled with care. That seems to be something you and I share when thinking about his writing. But it was the affect effect that I had, a little disruptive "Oh my!" when I'd read your interpretation that included this word "indifference," for I think if you look to his character, "indifference" would be the very last word I would use to describe him. Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jan 27 16:44:58 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 16:44:58 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Youth and Vido Narrative Project In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F908B7AA@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F908B7AA@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: I completely agree with your concluding line, Michael. My misjudgment of the ease with which the technical side of things could be treated as transparent so we could get on with the task at hand displays another side of the past (old age) being a foreign country. One gets, so to speak, out of touch. In any event, I certain Martin would heartily agree with the conclusion. mike On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Right now I think it's more about the technique in making online videos > rather than the technology (Youtube is just a distribution/comment > platform) - there's some more intelligent way to say that but I can think > of it . Basic technology is pervasive - I mean you can do it with your > smart phone. The issue is whether you use expressive narration, music etc. > or simply do something straight forward. Making really good videos is a > talent to some extent, but I also think some of the more popular online > videos (secretly or not so secretly) use video consultants. It's just not > that easy to do. A discussion on Youtube videos has spontaneously erupted > in one of the classes I teach and people are suggesting much of it is about > having your message meet the Zeitgeist of the Youtube audience at the > moment: you have thousands of people trying to do that daily and a few > break through, not that different than anybody else, there is just no > gatekeeper. I think there would be tremendous differences based on > motivation of the individuals making/posting the videos. Is it a desire > for self-expression? Is it exhibitionism? Is it a desire to catch on like > Pewdiepie (I have no idea) who a student claims is worth 7 million > dollars. I suppose this is one of the goals of the proposed workshop. But > I do think we spend too much time thinking about applications and not > enough about the human to human transactions behind the use of those > applications (a lot of philosophical reasons behind that I think - that > might fit into other threads going on right now). > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of mike cole [mcole@ucsd.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 5:06 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Youth and Vido Narrative Project > > Thanks Greg. I will pass along the advice. I was pretty certain that many > people were engaged in similar lines of work > and had worked out appropriatable technological platforms. Guess not. Using > word press as the most advanced medium might be the answer I guess, but > seems sort of suprising. > mike > > On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Mike, > > Norma Mendoza-Denton (UCLA) is doing some very interesting work studying > > the platform of Youtube and the role of the videos and subsequent > comments > > on Latin@ gangsta rap videos and how they construct various kinds of > > publics (and btw, I wouldn't be surprised if Youtube can't do everything > > that Morten would like to do, but maybe not). > > > > Here is a description of a presentation of Norma's work: > > > > > http://hrc.anu.edu.au/sites/hrc.anu.edu.au/files/u78/Mendoza-Denton%20flyer.pdf > > > > Perhaps a bit too linguistic-y for this audience's tastes? > > -greg > > > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 11:24 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Michael's quite reasonable question about the purposes of the folks > > seeking > > > information about cheap/free online facilities that engage > > > youth in video production, exposition, and reflective discussion > incited > > me > > > to contact Morten Nissen, for whom the query was sent, > > > and ask if it would be ok for me to post his entire note to me. > > > > > > I think that the project he is undertaking along with Catherine Hassa, > a > > > LCHC alumna who comes to the project from a Social Studies of Science > > > perspective, will be of interest to many on xmca, even if youth and new > > > media is not your thing. > > > > > > Morten has a very informative article in Andy's volume on Projects > that I > > > think it would be great for XMCAers to discuss. It gave me a lot to > think > > > about that has echoes of our discussion of the LSV/ANL discussion, but > > with > > > Morten articulating a critical perspective that puts > > > LSV under the microscope, along with communities of practice. > > > > > > Anyway, here is the message Morten sent me. If its not of interest, > BAIL! > > > > > > mike > > > > > > *Fra:* lchcmike@gmail.com [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com] *P? vegne af > *mike > > > cole > > > *Sendt:* 22. januar 2015 18:31 > > > *Til:* Morten Nissen > > > *Emne:* Re: Have you received MCA mail? > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice to chat with you. hope you scored a goal! I will follow up. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Morten Nissen wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mike > > > > > > Here?s a little bit on the theme of prototypical narratives. Attached > is > > an > > > article to appear in Dialogic Pedagogy that includes an argument for > > > Prototypical Narratives, but this should be read with my chapter in the > > > Blunden book, for our interest centers on artifacts, too ? as you can > see > > > also in the description of the PhD course with Emily Martin below. > > > > > > As mentioned, I?ll talk with Cathrine and return about your nice idea > of > > a > > > seminar. > > > > > > Warmly, > > > > > > Morten > > > > > > > > > Performing Beyond Representation, or: Prototypical Narratives - the > stuff > > > (:artifacts) that dreams (:theories) are made ofPhD course with Emily > > > Martin, Morten Nissen, and Line Lerche M?rck > > > > > > > > > > > > This course takes as its starting point the fact that we, as > researchers, > > > increasingly are not only sampling data, but take part in producing > > > narratives as somehow prototypical, often involving ourselves in > > > unconventional ways, and carried by genres and model artifacts that we > > > barely understand or control (e.g. blogs or videos on shifting > websites). > > > > > > > > > > > > Why call this prototypical narratives? In the philosophy of language, a > > > prototype is a concrete exemplar that is used to represent a > generality. > > In > > > the Science and Technology Studies (STS) tradition, this has been taken > > up > > > with a focus on how the exemplar is produced and handled as artifact > in a > > > situated practice, and how its status as prototypical, or potentially > > > standard, is realized and reproduced in concrete networks of practices. > > The > > > narrative approach in the social sciences and humanities has > highlighted > > > the sequential and contextual ordering of processes and events as > > > meaningful in existential and practical terms. By its logical form, > > > narrative proposes singular occurrences as meaningful and generally > > > relevant. Taken together, prototypical narratives are narratives that > > > designate certain meaningful processes, events and practices as > > > prototypical by capturing them in text, video, or other media, broadly > > with > > > a view to relevance for guiding and reflecting practice. > > > > > > This fusion of narrativity and STS seems relevant since a) we are > > > increasingly required to provide concrete alternatives to the > > > empiricist-rationalist format of knowledge that is embodied in the > > > infrastructures of standardization through which practices are ruled, > b) > > > the cultural genres of narrative performance and production evolve > > rapidly, > > > especially in terms of expanded technologies and challenges to the > > > private/public divisions, and this means that c) anyway we produce and > > use > > > model artifacts that take us well beyond what we can easily handle > > > (ethically and methodologically) as 'data' in research or 'case > > materials' > > > in teaching. > > > > > > > > > > > > This new situation requires us to reconceptualize classic issues such > as > > > > > > ? *Temporality*: The way we recreate the past to feed hopes for > the > > > future is accelerating; historicity is overtaking any foundations; > > > > > > ? *Reality*: With hyper-reality and reality TV, representation is > no > > > longer secondary to its reference; we co-create the events we call in > to > > > witness our stories; > > > > > > ? *Performance*: Could it be that ?citation? of (e.g. gender or > > > disease) standards increasingly fuse with producing and transforming > > them? > > > > > > ? *Subjectivity*: It is increasingly ourselves that we perform and > > > recreate, yet we tell of ourselves in forms that assume other > > objectivities > > > (such as those of drama, TV or art); > > > > > > ? *Logic*: Beyond the academic text, who knows how research > > questions, > > > arguments or findings might look? > > > > > > We have been pondering these ideas for a while, reflecting on the > videos > > > and songs of former gang-members and drug users, ?curating? galleries, > > even > > > confessing our past on websites. We are now so privileged as to have > > > persuaded Emily Martin to help us understand it. Emily Martin is > > professor > > > of Anthropology at New York University, famous for feminist and science > > > studies, and deservedly praised for wonderful works such as *Bipolar > > > Expeditions *from 2009. > > > > > > > > > > > > Besides academic presentations, the course will take up singular > > instances > > > of what could be called prototypical narratives from the research > > practices > > > and networks of teachers and students. > > > > > > > > > > > > We suggest a 4 days course in the fall of 2015. The precise time will > be > > > settled later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Morten Nissen* > > > > > > PhD, Dr. Psych. > > > > > > Professor > > > > > > *Department of Education* > > > > > > Aarhus University > > > Tuborgvej 164 > > > > > > 2400 Copenhagen NV > > > > > > > > > > > > Tlf: +45 30282418 > > > www.edu.au.dk/ > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jan 27 17:14:31 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 17:14:31 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Could life be... Message-ID: Attached is Morten Nissen's contribution to Andy's compendium on projects. His current video project is called "Meeting Youth in Movement on Neutral Ground. The attached paper is about his long term involvement in a project involving youth and drug use. While we wait for the next issue of MCA to come out, at least Morten's critique of Actvity Theory and the Vygotskian project more generally are worth the read. If you can find the time! "So many rocks, so little time," reads the sign on a friend's t-shirt. A-men! mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Nissen2014CouldLifeBe.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 564370 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150127/8c7685ef/attachment.pdf From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jan 27 17:21:42 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 17:21:42 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can try an answer, Huw. These idea of a triadic system, spirals of development, etc are core metaphors for expressing some sort of thirdness about human life. Father/son and holy ghost, id/ego/superego, subject/object/medium etc. It is a part of the Judeo-Christian system and aligns with non-religiously affiliated intuitions that dualism does not cut it as a mode of thought. The trouble is, there are only two kinds of people in the world.... ! mike On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:14 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > There seems to be a clear parallel between Vygotsky's use of the > formulation "in itself, for others, for itself" and Shpet's referencing > theological principium cognescenti which according to my brief browsing are > three principles: > principium essendi, principium cognoscendi externum, principium cognoscendi > internum. > > Is anyone here familiar with the etymology of these principles and their > bearing on Vygotsky's work? Is there more than a superficial resemblance? > > Huw > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jan 27 17:29:33 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 17:29:33 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is a wonderful overview of Spet's life and sequence of ideas, Larry. It clearly draws a line from Husserl to Shpet and, we know from the writing of Zinchenko and Wertsch, from Spet to Vygotsky. Mysl i slovo is "thought and word" in reference to the journal. Vygotsky was not taken out and shot and he did not make public his indebtedness to Shpet, or so it seems. Instead he died of tuberculosis, as the terror began to make itself public. Great to have a skeleton of the story mike On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 5:21 PM, mike cole wrote: > I can try an answer, Huw. These idea of a triadic system, spirals of > development, etc > are core metaphors for expressing some sort of thirdness about human life. > Father/son and holy ghost, id/ego/superego, subject/object/medium etc. It > is a part of the Judeo-Christian system and aligns with non-religiously > affiliated intuitions that dualism does not cut it as a mode of thought. > The trouble is, there are only two kinds of people in the world.... > ! > mike > > On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:14 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> There seems to be a clear parallel between Vygotsky's use of the >> formulation "in itself, for others, for itself" and Shpet's referencing >> theological principium cognescenti which according to my brief browsing >> are >> three principles: >> principium essendi, principium cognoscendi externum, principium >> cognoscendi >> internum. >> >> Is anyone here familiar with the etymology of these principles and their >> bearing on Vygotsky's work? Is there more than a superficial resemblance? >> >> Huw >> > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ablunden@mira.net Tue Jan 27 18:47:27 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 13:47:27 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54C84DBF.4040608@mira.net> Apparently these principium triad comes from the Theologian Hermann Bavinck: all knowledge begins with God, and via the Scriptures, man can make it his own knowledge. But in line with Mike's observation, I well remember the perezhivanie I had when a friend pointed out the parallels between the Marxist conception of primitive communism - civilization - socialist society, and not just the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden, but a half a dozen narratives or our own time. Paralleled by the perezhivanie I had when I read that for Spinoza, "God" meant Nature (including humanity). Nonetheless, despite the humbling symmetry between the great world theories, we all signal our allegiance to this one or that one by the names we give to the One (God, Nature, matter, Allah, Spirit, ...) and the Triad and in the case cited, Vygotsky is using a famous Hegelian version of the triad, "in itself, for others, for itself": "The education and instruction of a child aim at making him actually and for himself what he is at first only potentially and therefore for others, viz., for his grown up friends. The Reason, which at first exists in the child only as an inner possibility, is actualised through education: and conversely, the child by these means becomes conscious that the goodness, religion, and science which he had at first looked upon as an outward authority, are his own nature." Although the symmetry between the systems of thought we unkowingly affiliate to is surprising, we all declare our affiliation by the name we give to the One or the Triad, as the case may be. In the article Larry cites, however, Zinchenko just seems to be chiding Vygotsky repeatedly for failing to adhere to analytical Dualism. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > I can try an answer, Huw. These idea of a triadic system, spirals of > development, etc > are core metaphors for expressing some sort of thirdness about human life. > Father/son and holy ghost, id/ego/superego, subject/object/medium etc. It > is a part of the Judeo-Christian system and aligns with non-religiously > affiliated intuitions that dualism does not cut it as a mode of thought. > The trouble is, there are only two kinds of people in the world.... > ! > mike > > On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:14 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > >> There seems to be a clear parallel between Vygotsky's use of the >> formulation "in itself, for others, for itself" and Shpet's referencing >> theological principium cognescenti which according to my brief browsing are >> three principles: >> principium essendi, principium cognoscendi externum, principium cognoscendi >> internum. >> >> Is anyone here familiar with the etymology of these principles and their >> bearing on Vygotsky's work? Is there more than a superficial resemblance? >> >> Huw >> >> > > > > From vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp Tue Jan 27 18:58:58 2015 From: vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp (valerie A. Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 11:58:58 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000701d03aa6$5d093110$171b9330$@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> Just a modest addenda from my philosophy teacher, there are only two, this or that, for example, or there are two and a ground, therefore three. Since it is abstract and arbitrary there can be only two types: Those who think there are only two types and those who think there are not. But the principle of Uncertainty which declares light is particle or waves, well who says so? The third. Then again, there are the two types and the anthropologist or other observer or archivist role. Vandy with a flash comment. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 10:30 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti That is a wonderful overview of Spet's life and sequence of ideas, Larry. It clearly draws a line from Husserl to Shpet and, we know from the writing of Zinchenko and Wertsch, from Spet to Vygotsky. Mysl i slovo is "thought and word" in reference to the journal. Vygotsky was not taken out and shot and he did not make public his indebtedness to Shpet, or so it seems. Instead he died of tuberculosis, as the terror began to make itself public. Great to have a skeleton of the story mike On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 5:21 PM, mike cole wrote: > I can try an answer, Huw. These idea of a triadic system, spirals of > development, etc are core metaphors for expressing some sort of > thirdness about human life. > Father/son and holy ghost, id/ego/superego, subject/object/medium etc. > It is a part of the Judeo-Christian system and aligns with > non-religiously affiliated intuitions that dualism does not cut it as a mode of thought. > The trouble is, there are only two kinds of people in the world.... > ! > mike > > On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:14 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> There seems to be a clear parallel between Vygotsky's use of the >> formulation "in itself, for others, for itself" and Shpet's >> referencing theological principium cognescenti which according to my >> brief browsing are three principles: >> principium essendi, principium cognoscendi externum, principium >> cognoscendi internum. >> >> Is anyone here familiar with the etymology of these principles and >> their bearing on Vygotsky's work? Is there more than a superficial resemblance? >> >> Huw >> > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jan 27 20:19:10 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 04:19:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <1422418750526.22230@unm.edu> Larry! Thanks for this! :) Annalisa On Tuesday, January 27, 2015 3:31 PM, Larry Purss wrote: Huw, I can not answer this question but I am adding a brief entry from "the Encyclopedia Of Philosophy": on Gustav Shpet (1879?1937) ... From ablunden@mira.net Tue Jan 27 22:10:00 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 17:10:00 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] help with Russian Message-ID: <54C87D38.8070606@mira.net> The word ??????????????? which transliterates to "deterministic" and is translated as such in Chapter 1 of "Thinking and Speech" must surely have some other shade of meaning, as "deterministic" has a pejorative meaning in English, and the way Vygotsky is using it is not pejorative. Any suggestions? causal? Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jan 27 22:25:15 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 06:25:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: help with Russian In-Reply-To: <54C87D38.8070606@mira.net> References: <54C87D38.8070606@mira.net> Message-ID: <1422426314541.53874@unm.edu> I haven't got an answer, but when I think of deterministic it means something particular without a doubt is going to result. Causal is something is going to generate something in that it always generates but it isn't certain what. That's how I look at it. Hence cause/result. Said cause determines said result. It seems the nuance is directional. There is also the term fatalistic, but this swims into philosophical waters, and there may be sharks there, Andy. Best, Annalisa From bella.kotik@gmail.com Tue Jan 27 22:27:44 2015 From: bella.kotik@gmail.com (Bella Kotik-Friedgut) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 08:27:44 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: help with Russian In-Reply-To: <54C87D38.8070606@mira.net> References: <54C87D38.8070606@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy I found ?????????????????? and in the context it really can be translated as causal. Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:10 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > The word ??????????????? which transliterates to "deterministic" and is > translated as such in Chapter 1 of "Thinking and Speech" must surely have > some other shade of meaning, as "deterministic" has a pejorative meaning in > English, and the way Vygotsky is using it is not pejorative. > Any suggestions? causal? > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > From ablunden@mira.net Tue Jan 27 22:29:19 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 17:29:19 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: help with Russian In-Reply-To: References: <54C87D38.8070606@mira.net> Message-ID: <54C881BF.20904@mira.net> Cool. I will amend my copies. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Bella Kotik-Friedgut wrote: > Andy I found > ?????????????????? > and in the context it really can be translated as causal. > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:10 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > The word ??????????????? which transliterates to "deterministic" > and is translated as such in Chapter 1 of "Thinking and Speech" > must surely have some other shade of meaning, as "deterministic" > has a pejorative meaning in English, and the way Vygotsky is using > it is not pejorative. > Any suggestions? causal? > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jan 27 22:32:44 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 06:32:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: help with Russian In-Reply-To: <54C881BF.20904@mira.net> References: <54C87D38.8070606@mira.net> , <54C881BF.20904@mira.net> Message-ID: <1422426763704.95146@unm.edu> My post criss-crossed. But glad you got your answer! Cheers, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 11:29 PM To: Bella Kotik-Friedgut Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: help with Russian Cool. I will amend my copies. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Bella Kotik-Friedgut wrote: > Andy I found > ?????????????????? > and in the context it really can be translated as causal. > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:10 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > The word ??????????????? which transliterates to "deterministic" > and is translated as such in Chapter 1 of "Thinking and Speech" > must surely have some other shade of meaning, as "deterministic" > has a pejorative meaning in English, and the way Vygotsky is using > it is not pejorative. > Any suggestions? causal? > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > From smago@uga.edu Wed Jan 28 03:24:52 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 11:24:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To finish Mike's thought: There are two kinds of people in the world: those who think there are two kinds of people in the world, and those who don't. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 8:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti I can try an answer, Huw. These idea of a triadic system, spirals of development, etc are core metaphors for expressing some sort of thirdness about human life. Father/son and holy ghost, id/ego/superego, subject/object/medium etc. It is a part of the Judeo-Christian system and aligns with non-religiously affiliated intuitions that dualism does not cut it as a mode of thought. The trouble is, there are only two kinds of people in the world.... ! mike On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:14 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > There seems to be a clear parallel between Vygotsky's use of the > formulation "in itself, for others, for itself" and Shpet's > referencing theological principium cognescenti which according to my > brief browsing are three principles: > principium essendi, principium cognoscendi externum, principium > cognoscendi internum. > > Is anyone here familiar with the etymology of these principles and > their bearing on Vygotsky's work? Is there more than a superficial resemblance? > > Huw > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From smago@uga.edu Wed Jan 28 04:17:13 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 12:17:13 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback In-Reply-To: <1422401645485.14058@unm.edu> References: <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu>, <1422401645485.14058@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, thanks for your thoughtful response here, and generally since joining this conversation. Your consideration of LSV's difficulty as an author provides many possibilities. I can't remember if "indifference to readers' sensibilities" was a line I got from a source, or one I made up based on sources. If "indifference" is the problematic term, then I'm sure something more gentle could be identified. I'm not too good at mind-reading, so don't think I can speak to LSV's motive, even if claiming his indifference, or however you might alternatively phrase it, suggests that whenever I wrote those lines, I thought I could. So I need to get out of the business of attempting to explain his motives, only the outcome: Most people agree that reading Vygotsky is pretty challenging, and for those of us who speak no Russian and rely on translations, often unreliable. I will offer another contextual factor in addition to others I've suggested (He wrote quickly and prolifically because his illness might end his life at any time; he wrote by hand or dictated and did not appear to revise, a problem that I've also heard contributed to difficulties in reading Piaget--from Irving Sigel, I think, before he died.) This latter problem, I suspect, was exacerbated by terrible paper shortages in the Soviet Union. One of the most remarkable testaments to this problem concerns Bakhtin and his insatiable tobacco habit. During one severe paper shortage, he began rolling cigarettes out of his written manuscripts, thus depriving us of his whole corpus. (I think this story is related in the introduction to Speech Genres and Other Essays.) So even if Vygotsky had been inclined to revise, he might not have had the paper to do it with. Complicated stuff! p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 6:34 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback Hi Peter! Thanks for your very robust and bursting reply. Here's my reply in kind and kindness. I do not disagree with anything said about the difficulty we all face when we face the texts we have inherited from Vygotsky. So for this train of thought pulling away from the quay, I'd ask you leave that concern on the platform. What I troubles me, I suppose, is the notion that he "was indifferent to his reader's sensibilities." I don't believe that that is a fair representation of the historical facts, and perhaps all we are doing is arguing about interpretations of the history and the facts, and that is certainly fair game. However, what I see in Vygotsky, when I think about Vygotsky and his texts, is a great comet in the sky ready to burn out at any time and the faster he writes the brighter he burns. What I cannot help but see, employing my top-down-thinking sensibility, is that Vygotsky may not have been interested in inner speech of children _just because_ it was an intriguing phenomenon uncovered by Piaget, that it was the "cool hot topic," as we might say in today's vernacular. Could it be that Vygotsky had a *personal* interest in inner speech? that this was the shape of his own thought? an awareness and understanding of his own way of thinking? Perhaps the writing that he left behind was not written down as indifference to his readers, but because he knew he lived in a time and space in which the light might go out in his life at anytime. Perhaps the man didn't want to lose that thought which would lead to the very next thought and the train that would reveal more amazing vistas of the countryside of thoughts. In other words, the man was in a hurry to see a man about a dog. Or if I might decode that metaphor as I mean it: all his own work began as inner speech, as a technique to capture his own thought. The written fragments we have before us are archeological remains of these flights of thought. He wasn't indifferent, it's just he wanted to interact privately with himself, a kind of inner speech. As I write this myself I suddenly thought, perhaps the writing was nothing more than a tool to help him think, like the Einstein and the chalkboard. And maybe when Vygotsky first began the practice of writing down his inner speech, he thought he'd have more time to decode, but as it became nearer the day for his comet to leave our orbit, he couldn't stop the train to revisit past stops, the train was fast in motion and what motivated him was to get to his destination rather than considering where he'd already been. Late trains have few opportunities to dilly-dally. Is it possible for us to look at his commentary about inner speech in children, and then "decode" his own writing? I don't know! But it was a thought of mine I'd had while reading your text. I also wonder, naively of course, whether the shards of his writing are actually carelessness, but "formlessness" ? Here's another emerging thought: Could this formlessness have been a possible obfuscation for political reasons? To my mind, if that were true, such political reasons cannot be justly rendered as indifference, but a whole heck of a lot of care and carefulness. These are not claims I make strongly, but rather thinking out loud, to offer that Vygotsky did not seem to me in any way a muscular academic speaking to his own tribe with a devil-may-care attitude for everyone else. What saddens me is that your phrase promulgates that kind of idea, at least it did for me, and this possibly creates further obfuscation, something of which we require less not more. My heartfelt wish is that you might reflect on other possible reasons why the writing came to us in the forms that they have. At first we can think, "Confounded these hieroglyphics!" or we can instead look closer and realize there is actually a Rosetta stone before us. If so, it means we have some decoding work to do, and that is just the way it is. But we also have a responsibility to make those who come after us understand why it is Vygotsky must be handled with care. That seems to be something you and I share when thinking about his writing. But it was the affect effect that I had, a little disruptive "Oh my!" when I'd read your interpretation that included this word "indifference," for I think if you look to his character, "indifference" would be the very last word I would use to describe him. Kind regards, Annalisa From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Jan 28 05:29:34 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 13:29:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback In-Reply-To: References: <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu> <1422401645485.14058@unm.edu> Message-ID: This is account, regarding Vygotsky's fluency, is from Haenen (1996, pp 27-28): "There is a point concerning Vygotsky's personality that needs special mention. Being a psychoneurologist and a medical practitioner, Gal'perin (1986a) got the impression, that in a certain respect there was something pathological about Vygotsky. He was in an unusual way, exceptionally verbally gifted. If, for example, he had dictated some texts, they could be published straight away, after minimum correction. This explained why he published such a large list of titles in just one decade of being a psychologist. That was only possible because he dictated so much and these manuscripts could directly be sent to the publishers. From this it is evident that he had an exceptional command of intellectual speech. However, according to Gal'perin (1986a), there was something curious about Vygotsky's verbal giftedness. Gal'perin had once read at Luria's a note written by Vygotsky himself in which he wonders what kind of primitivism he is suffering from and what is happening to his senses. At the end of the 1920s, Vygotsky used the term 'primitivism' in his defectological writings, in which he first gave a general outline of the cultural-historical approach. He considered primitivism the inability to use certain cultural tools (see Van der Veer & Valsiner, 1991, p. 73). Apparently, Vygotsky felt himself somehow blocked in his cultural development, because the following occurred. When he saw a depicted or displayed representation of something, he didn't understand anything about it. He could say what he saw, but he had no grasp of the reference, the meaning or the quality of it. On the other hand, if he had to tell somebody else about this very representation, he came up with more than that person could see in it. With him, everything emerged in speech! The same happened with music. Music meant nothing to Vygotsky on hearing it. On the contrary when he read something about works of music, the words he spoke sounded better than the works on paper. According to Gal'perin (1986a), this aspect of Vygotsky bordered on pathology, because it was not explainable as merely one-sidedness. You speak of one-sidedness, when one personality trait is more strongly developed than another. With Vygotsky, however, it was more a question of the complete absence of something. In Gal'perin's view, it was something like agnosia, but that wasn't really it either. Vygotsky knew, for example, that a particular object was a chair. But that chair held no meaning for him; if he put it into words, then he could tell you everything about that chair: the history of it, the part it played in the life of the man who sat on it, etc..." Personally, I consider the business of determining exactly what someone wrote, or said, as an imperative to be already a capitulation to understanding. Instead of understanding one hankers after what someone has said, what the signs are rather than the meanings --- what time the clock says, rather than what time really is, what the professor has said, rather than what is speaking the professor. I came to Vygtosky's thought and speech/language with an array of thought-problems (which are inherently not about signs) and as such it was a pleasure to read. Huw On 28 January 2015 at 12:17, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Annalisa, thanks for your thoughtful response here, and generally since > joining this conversation. > > Your consideration of LSV's difficulty as an author provides many > possibilities. I can't remember if "indifference to readers' sensibilities" > was a line I got from a source, or one I made up based on sources. If > "indifference" is the problematic term, then I'm sure something more gentle > could be identified. > > I'm not too good at mind-reading, so don't think I can speak to LSV's > motive, even if claiming his indifference, or however you might > alternatively phrase it, suggests that whenever I wrote those lines, I > thought I could. So I need to get out of the business of attempting to > explain his motives, only the outcome: Most people agree that reading > Vygotsky is pretty challenging, and for those of us who speak no Russian > and rely on translations, often unreliable. > > I will offer another contextual factor in addition to others I've > suggested (He wrote quickly and prolifically because his illness might end > his life at any time; he wrote by hand or dictated and did not appear to > revise, a problem that I've also heard contributed to difficulties in > reading Piaget--from Irving Sigel, I think, before he died.) This latter > problem, I suspect, was exacerbated by terrible paper shortages in the > Soviet Union. One of the most remarkable testaments to this problem > concerns Bakhtin and his insatiable tobacco habit. During one severe paper > shortage, he began rolling cigarettes out of his written manuscripts, thus > depriving us of his whole corpus. (I think this story is related in the > introduction to Speech Genres and Other Essays.) So even if Vygotsky had > been inclined to revise, he might not have had the paper to do it with. > > Complicated stuff! p > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 6:34 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback > > Hi Peter! > > Thanks for your very robust and bursting reply. Here's my reply in kind > and kindness. > > I do not disagree with anything said about the difficulty we all face when > we face the texts we have inherited from Vygotsky. So for this train of > thought pulling away from the quay, I'd ask you leave that concern on the > platform. > > What I troubles me, I suppose, is the notion that he "was indifferent to > his reader's sensibilities." I don't believe that that is a fair > representation of the historical facts, and perhaps all we are doing is > arguing about interpretations of the history and the facts, and that is > certainly fair game. > > However, what I see in Vygotsky, when I think about Vygotsky and his > texts, is a great comet in the sky ready to burn out at any time and the > faster he writes the brighter he burns. > > What I cannot help but see, employing my top-down-thinking sensibility, is > that Vygotsky may not have been interested in inner speech of children > _just because_ it was an intriguing phenomenon uncovered by Piaget, that it > was the "cool hot topic," as we might say in today's vernacular. Could it > be that Vygotsky had a *personal* interest in inner speech? that this was > the shape of his own thought? an awareness and understanding of his own way > of thinking? Perhaps the writing that he left behind was not written down > as indifference to his readers, but because he knew he lived in a time and > space in which the light might go out in his life at anytime. Perhaps the > man didn't want to lose that thought which would lead to the very next > thought and the train that would reveal more amazing vistas of the > countryside of thoughts. > > In other words, the man was in a hurry to see a man about a dog. > > Or if I might decode that metaphor as I mean it: all his own work began as > inner speech, as a technique to capture his own thought. The written > fragments we have before us are archeological remains of these flights of > thought. He wasn't indifferent, it's just he wanted to interact privately > with himself, a kind of inner speech. > > As I write this myself I suddenly thought, perhaps the writing was nothing > more than a tool to help him think, like the Einstein and the chalkboard. > And maybe when Vygotsky first began the practice of writing down his inner > speech, he thought he'd have more time to decode, but as it became nearer > the day for his comet to leave our orbit, he couldn't stop the train to > revisit past stops, the train was fast in motion and what motivated him was > to get to his destination rather than considering where he'd already been. > Late trains have few opportunities to dilly-dally. > > Is it possible for us to look at his commentary about inner speech in > children, and then "decode" his own writing? I don't know! But it was a > thought of mine I'd had while reading your text. > > I also wonder, naively of course, whether the shards of his writing are > actually carelessness, but "formlessness" ? > > Here's another emerging thought: Could this formlessness have been a > possible obfuscation for political reasons? To my mind, if that were true, > such political reasons cannot be justly rendered as indifference, but a > whole heck of a lot of care and carefulness. > > These are not claims I make strongly, but rather thinking out loud, to > offer that Vygotsky did not seem to me in any way a muscular academic > speaking to his own tribe with a devil-may-care attitude for everyone else. > What saddens me is that your phrase promulgates that kind of idea, at least > it did for me, and this possibly creates further obfuscation, something of > which we require less not more. My heartfelt wish is that you might reflect > on other possible reasons why the writing came to us in the forms that they > have. > > At first we can think, "Confounded these hieroglyphics!" or we can instead > look closer and realize there is actually a Rosetta stone before us. If so, > it means we have some decoding work to do, and that is just the way it is. > But we also have a responsibility to make those who come after us > understand why it is Vygotsky must be handled with care. That seems to be > something you and I share when thinking about his writing. > > But it was the affect effect that I had, a little disruptive "Oh my!" when > I'd read your interpretation that included this word "indifference," for I > think if you look to his character, "indifference" would be the very last > word I would use to describe him. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Jan 28 05:52:48 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 13:52:48 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti In-Reply-To: <54C84DBF.4040608@mira.net> References: <54C84DBF.4040608@mira.net> Message-ID: So people find the three-ness interesting? The thing I thought might be interesting was the transitions from essential to external to internal. I can't say I read anything about dualism into the article. The oscillation (which didn't strike me as being a big deal) was between the variously given forms of phenomena (if I recall correctly). Zinchenko's referencing functional organs and his intimate work with ergonomics etc permit him an alternative form of investigation, that doesn't rely upon a dialectic description (but that is compatible with it). Huw On 28 January 2015 at 02:47, Andy Blunden wrote: > Apparently these principium triad comes from the Theologian Hermann > Bavinck: all knowledge begins with God, and via the Scriptures, man can > make it his own knowledge. > But in line with Mike's observation, I well remember the perezhivanie I > had when a friend pointed out the parallels between the Marxist conception > of primitive communism - civilization - socialist society, and not just the > Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden, but a half a dozen narratives or our own > time. Paralleled by the perezhivanie I had when I read that for Spinoza, > "God" meant Nature (including humanity). > Nonetheless, despite the humbling symmetry between the great world > theories, we all signal our allegiance to this one or that one by the names > we give to the One (God, Nature, matter, Allah, Spirit, ...) and the Triad > and in the case cited, Vygotsky is using a famous Hegelian version of the > triad, "in itself, for others, for itself": > > "The education and instruction of a child aim at making him actually > and for himself what he is at first only potentially and therefore > for others, viz., for his grown up friends. The Reason, which at > first exists in the child only as an inner possibility, is > actualised through education: and conversely, the child by these > means becomes conscious that the goodness, religion, and science > which he had at first looked upon as an outward authority, are his > own nature." > > Although the symmetry between the systems of thought we unkowingly > affiliate to is surprising, we all declare our affiliation by the name we > give to the One or the Triad, as the case may be. In the article Larry > cites, however, Zinchenko just seems to be chiding Vygotsky repeatedly for > failing to adhere to analytical Dualism. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > mike cole wrote: > >> I can try an answer, Huw. These idea of a triadic system, spirals of >> development, etc >> are core metaphors for expressing some sort of thirdness about human life. >> Father/son and holy ghost, id/ego/superego, subject/object/medium etc. It >> is a part of the Judeo-Christian system and aligns with non-religiously >> affiliated intuitions that dualism does not cut it as a mode of thought. >> The trouble is, there are only two kinds of people in the world.... >> ! >> mike >> >> On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:14 PM, Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> There seems to be a clear parallel between Vygotsky's use of the >>> formulation "in itself, for others, for itself" and Shpet's referencing >>> theological principium cognescenti which according to my brief browsing >>> are >>> three principles: >>> principium essendi, principium cognoscendi externum, principium >>> cognoscendi >>> internum. >>> >>> Is anyone here familiar with the etymology of these principles and their >>> bearing on Vygotsky's work? Is there more than a superficial >>> resemblance? >>> >>> Huw >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > From smago@uga.edu Wed Jan 28 06:00:06 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 14:00:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti In-Reply-To: References: <54C84DBF.4040608@mira.net> Message-ID: I'm hardly an expert on Shpet; most of what I know comes from The Cambridge Companion to Vygotsky. Again with apologies for quoting myself, I think that it's important to contextualize Vygotsky's challenges in referencing his mentors in repressive times. P. 8, Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Vygotsky and literacy research: A methodological framework. Boston: Sense. The Soviet system has long been known for its brutal reinforcement of its ideol-ogy, and in its early days and through at least the 1950s monitored its psycholo-gists with a vengeance (see Cole, Levitin, & Luria, 2006). Because of the excessive role he identified for individual development in social context, says Zinchenko (2007), ?Vygotsky?s commitment to Marxist beliefs did not save him from criti-cism. His works were banned, denounced, and declared to be vicious and even evil. He was lucky to have managed to die in his own bed in 1934? (p. 213). Some believe that Vygotsky allowed himself to die rather than face interrogation, torture, and execution by the authorities over his departure from the state?s more exacting interpretation of Marx (M. Cole, personal communication). Others, however, were not so fortunate to die of natural causes. In Thinking and Speech, Vygotsky did not reference Gustav Gustavovich Shpet, one of his mentors. Vygotsky likely avoided acknowledging Shpet because did not wish to bring upon himself the fate of Shpet himself, who was dismissed from his academic positions on multiple occasions and subjected to ?brutal interrogation and execution in 1937? by Soviet authorities (Wertsch, 2007, p. 184). Shpet made the fatal error of exhibiting ?freedom and dignity and the independence of his thought from Marxist-Leninist ideology, which at the time was growing stronger and stronger? (Zinchenko, 2007, p. 212). Shpet?s literary contemporary Mandel?shtam, notes Zinchenko, met the fate of many Soviets, no matter how seemingly benign their field of endeavor, who in any way defied the party position: He died in the Gulag in 1938. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 8:53 AM To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti So people find the three-ness interesting? The thing I thought might be interesting was the transitions from essential to external to internal. I can't say I read anything about dualism into the article. The oscillation (which didn't strike me as being a big deal) was between the variously given forms of phenomena (if I recall correctly). Zinchenko's referencing functional organs and his intimate work with ergonomics etc permit him an alternative form of investigation, that doesn't rely upon a dialectic description (but that is compatible with it). Huw On 28 January 2015 at 02:47, Andy Blunden wrote: > Apparently these principium triad comes from the Theologian Hermann > Bavinck: all knowledge begins with God, and via the Scriptures, man > can make it his own knowledge. > But in line with Mike's observation, I well remember the perezhivanie > I had when a friend pointed out the parallels between the Marxist > conception of primitive communism - civilization - socialist society, > and not just the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden, but a half a dozen > narratives or our own time. Paralleled by the perezhivanie I had when > I read that for Spinoza, "God" meant Nature (including humanity). > Nonetheless, despite the humbling symmetry between the great world > theories, we all signal our allegiance to this one or that one by the > names we give to the One (God, Nature, matter, Allah, Spirit, ...) and > the Triad and in the case cited, Vygotsky is using a famous Hegelian > version of the triad, "in itself, for others, for itself": > > "The education and instruction of a child aim at making him actually > and for himself what he is at first only potentially and therefore > for others, viz., for his grown up friends. The Reason, which at > first exists in the child only as an inner possibility, is > actualised through education: and conversely, the child by these > means becomes conscious that the goodness, religion, and science > which he had at first looked upon as an outward authority, are his > own nature." > > Although the symmetry between the systems of thought we unkowingly > affiliate to is surprising, we all declare our affiliation by the name > we give to the One or the Triad, as the case may be. In the article > Larry cites, however, Zinchenko just seems to be chiding Vygotsky > repeatedly for failing to adhere to analytical Dualism. > > Andy > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > mike cole wrote: > >> I can try an answer, Huw. These idea of a triadic system, spirals of >> development, etc are core metaphors for expressing some sort of >> thirdness about human life. >> Father/son and holy ghost, id/ego/superego, subject/object/medium >> etc. It is a part of the Judeo-Christian system and aligns with >> non-religiously affiliated intuitions that dualism does not cut it as a mode of thought. >> The trouble is, there are only two kinds of people in the world.... >> ! >> mike >> >> On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:14 PM, Huw Lloyd >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> There seems to be a clear parallel between Vygotsky's use of the >>> formulation "in itself, for others, for itself" and Shpet's >>> referencing theological principium cognescenti which according to my >>> brief browsing are three principles: >>> principium essendi, principium cognoscendi externum, principium >>> cognoscendi internum. >>> >>> Is anyone here familiar with the etymology of these principles and >>> their bearing on Vygotsky's work? Is there more than a superficial >>> resemblance? >>> >>> Huw >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Jan 28 07:15:32 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 07:15:32 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti In-Reply-To: References: <54C84DBF.4040608@mira.net> Message-ID: Huw When you mention the oscillations are not a big deal but what is interesting is the transitions between FROM essential to internal to external I would just mention to explore your interest is what Zinchenko was approaching. He mentions that the image of oscillation haunts him and therefore this is the imaginal "energy" or "force" that propels him to engage and embody the understanding of these transitions. Martin also mentioned Shpet's book that has been translated into English is an early book written around 1918. The topic [topos or space] was to introduce Husserl to Russia and was written only one year after Husserl's book. This "Husserl" is the 1917 Husserl that Vygotsky was responding to. However, Shpet's work developed beyond Husserl and was focused on the historical coming into being of phenomena that was socially embodied. However, Shpet was not Marxist and his work on the transitions from essential to internal to external were deeply informed by Plato. Therefore his fate was sealed. However, for a number of years after 1917 Shpet's exploring the transformations from essential to internal to external were actively approached by a group of scholars gathered around this topic. IShpet wrote a book on the topic of thought and word and it is this topos [third space] that Zinchenko is now exploring through the figure of oscillation. Larry On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 6:00 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I'm hardly an expert on Shpet; most of what I know comes from The > Cambridge Companion to Vygotsky. Again with apologies for quoting myself, I > think that it's important to contextualize Vygotsky's challenges in > referencing his mentors in repressive times. P. 8, Smagorinsky, P. (2011). > Vygotsky and literacy research: A methodological framework. Boston: Sense. > > The Soviet system has long been known for its brutal reinforcement of its > ideol-ogy, and in its early days and through at least the 1950s monitored > its psycholo-gists with a vengeance (see Cole, Levitin, & Luria, 2006). > Because of the excessive role he identified for individual development in > social context, says Zinchenko (2007), ?Vygotsky?s commitment to Marxist > beliefs did not save him from criti-cism. His works were banned, denounced, > and declared to be vicious and even evil. He was lucky to have managed to > die in his own bed in 1934? (p. 213). Some believe that Vygotsky allowed > himself to die rather than face interrogation, torture, and execution by > the authorities over his departure from the state?s more exacting > interpretation of Marx (M. Cole, personal communication). > Others, however, were not so fortunate to die of natural causes. > In Thinking and Speech, Vygotsky did not reference Gustav Gustavovich > Shpet, one of his mentors. Vygotsky likely avoided acknowledging Shpet > because did not wish to bring upon himself the fate of Shpet himself, who > was dismissed from his academic positions on multiple occasions and > subjected to ?brutal interrogation and execution in 1937? by Soviet > authorities (Wertsch, 2007, p. 184). Shpet made the fatal error of > exhibiting ?freedom and dignity and the independence of his thought from > Marxist-Leninist ideology, which at the time was growing stronger and > stronger? (Zinchenko, 2007, p. 212). Shpet?s literary contemporary > Mandel?shtam, notes Zinchenko, met the fate of many Soviets, no matter how > seemingly benign their field of endeavor, who in any way defied the party > position: He died in the Gulag in 1938. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 8:53 AM > To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti > > So people find the three-ness interesting? The thing I thought might be > interesting was the transitions from essential to external to internal. > > I can't say I read anything about dualism into the article. The > oscillation (which didn't strike me as being a big deal) was between the > variously given forms of phenomena (if I recall correctly). Zinchenko's > referencing functional organs and his intimate work with ergonomics etc > permit him an alternative form of investigation, that doesn't rely upon a > dialectic description (but that is compatible with it). > > Huw > > On 28 January 2015 at 02:47, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > Apparently these principium triad comes from the Theologian Hermann > > Bavinck: all knowledge begins with God, and via the Scriptures, man > > can make it his own knowledge. > > But in line with Mike's observation, I well remember the perezhivanie > > I had when a friend pointed out the parallels between the Marxist > > conception of primitive communism - civilization - socialist society, > > and not just the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden, but a half a dozen > > narratives or our own time. Paralleled by the perezhivanie I had when > > I read that for Spinoza, "God" meant Nature (including humanity). > > Nonetheless, despite the humbling symmetry between the great world > > theories, we all signal our allegiance to this one or that one by the > > names we give to the One (God, Nature, matter, Allah, Spirit, ...) and > > the Triad and in the case cited, Vygotsky is using a famous Hegelian > > version of the triad, "in itself, for others, for itself": > > > > "The education and instruction of a child aim at making him actually > > and for himself what he is at first only potentially and therefore > > for others, viz., for his grown up friends. The Reason, which at > > first exists in the child only as an inner possibility, is > > actualised through education: and conversely, the child by these > > means becomes conscious that the goodness, religion, and science > > which he had at first looked upon as an outward authority, are his > > own nature." > > > > Although the symmetry between the systems of thought we unkowingly > > affiliate to is surprising, we all declare our affiliation by the name > > we give to the One or the Triad, as the case may be. In the article > > Larry cites, however, Zinchenko just seems to be chiding Vygotsky > > repeatedly for failing to adhere to analytical Dualism. > > > > Andy > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > > >> I can try an answer, Huw. These idea of a triadic system, spirals of > >> development, etc are core metaphors for expressing some sort of > >> thirdness about human life. > >> Father/son and holy ghost, id/ego/superego, subject/object/medium > >> etc. It is a part of the Judeo-Christian system and aligns with > >> non-religiously affiliated intuitions that dualism does not cut it as a > mode of thought. > >> The trouble is, there are only two kinds of people in the world.... > >> ! > >> mike > >> > >> On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:14 PM, Huw Lloyd > >> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>> There seems to be a clear parallel between Vygotsky's use of the > >>> formulation "in itself, for others, for itself" and Shpet's > >>> referencing theological principium cognescenti which according to my > >>> brief browsing are three principles: > >>> principium essendi, principium cognoscendi externum, principium > >>> cognoscendi internum. > >>> > >>> Is anyone here familiar with the etymology of these principles and > >>> their bearing on Vygotsky's work? Is there more than a superficial > >>> resemblance? > >>> > >>> Huw > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Jan 28 07:25:02 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 15:25:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti In-Reply-To: References: <54C84DBF.4040608@mira.net> Message-ID: Oscillation between conceptions or technical foci seems pretty normal to me, Larry. However, I don't read that as an invitation for dualism. Its more of a technical problem than a big deal about dualistic thinking etc, as I see it. Huw On 28 January 2015 at 15:15, Larry Purss wrote: > Huw > When you mention the oscillations are not a big deal but what is > interesting is the transitions between FROM essential to internal to > external I would just mention to explore your interest is what Zinchenko > was approaching. He mentions that the image of oscillation haunts him and > therefore this is the imaginal "energy" or "force" that propels him to > engage and embody the understanding of these transitions. > > Martin also mentioned Shpet's book that has been translated into English is > an early book written around 1918. The topic [topos or space] was > to introduce Husserl to Russia and was written only one year after > Husserl's book. This "Husserl" is the 1917 Husserl that Vygotsky was > responding to. However, Shpet's work developed beyond Husserl and was > focused on the historical coming into being of phenomena that was socially > embodied. > However, Shpet was not Marxist and his work on the transitions from > essential to internal to external were deeply informed by Plato. Therefore > his fate was sealed. > > However, for a number of years after 1917 Shpet's exploring the > transformations from essential to internal to external were actively > approached by a group of scholars gathered around this topic. > > IShpet wrote a book on the topic of thought and word and it is this topos > [third space] that Zinchenko is now exploring through the figure of > oscillation. > > Larry > > > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 6:00 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > I'm hardly an expert on Shpet; most of what I know comes from The > > Cambridge Companion to Vygotsky. Again with apologies for quoting > myself, I > > think that it's important to contextualize Vygotsky's challenges in > > referencing his mentors in repressive times. P. 8, Smagorinsky, P. > (2011). > > Vygotsky and literacy research: A methodological framework. Boston: > Sense. > > > > The Soviet system has long been known for its brutal reinforcement of its > > ideol-ogy, and in its early days and through at least the 1950s monitored > > its psycholo-gists with a vengeance (see Cole, Levitin, & Luria, 2006). > > Because of the excessive role he identified for individual development in > > social context, says Zinchenko (2007), ?Vygotsky?s commitment to Marxist > > beliefs did not save him from criti-cism. His works were banned, > denounced, > > and declared to be vicious and even evil. He was lucky to have managed to > > die in his own bed in 1934? (p. 213). Some believe that Vygotsky allowed > > himself to die rather than face interrogation, torture, and execution by > > the authorities over his departure from the state?s more exacting > > interpretation of Marx (M. Cole, personal communication). > > Others, however, were not so fortunate to die of natural causes. > > In Thinking and Speech, Vygotsky did not reference Gustav Gustavovich > > Shpet, one of his mentors. Vygotsky likely avoided acknowledging Shpet > > because did not wish to bring upon himself the fate of Shpet himself, who > > was dismissed from his academic positions on multiple occasions and > > subjected to ?brutal interrogation and execution in 1937? by Soviet > > authorities (Wertsch, 2007, p. 184). Shpet made the fatal error of > > exhibiting ?freedom and dignity and the independence of his thought from > > Marxist-Leninist ideology, which at the time was growing stronger and > > stronger? (Zinchenko, 2007, p. 212). Shpet?s literary contemporary > > Mandel?shtam, notes Zinchenko, met the fate of many Soviets, no matter > how > > seemingly benign their field of endeavor, who in any way defied the party > > position: He died in the Gulag in 1938. > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd > > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 8:53 AM > > To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti > > > > So people find the three-ness interesting? The thing I thought might be > > interesting was the transitions from essential to external to internal. > > > > I can't say I read anything about dualism into the article. The > > oscillation (which didn't strike me as being a big deal) was between the > > variously given forms of phenomena (if I recall correctly). Zinchenko's > > referencing functional organs and his intimate work with ergonomics etc > > permit him an alternative form of investigation, that doesn't rely upon a > > dialectic description (but that is compatible with it). > > > > Huw > > > > On 28 January 2015 at 02:47, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > > Apparently these principium triad comes from the Theologian Hermann > > > Bavinck: all knowledge begins with God, and via the Scriptures, man > > > can make it his own knowledge. > > > But in line with Mike's observation, I well remember the perezhivanie > > > I had when a friend pointed out the parallels between the Marxist > > > conception of primitive communism - civilization - socialist society, > > > and not just the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden, but a half a dozen > > > narratives or our own time. Paralleled by the perezhivanie I had when > > > I read that for Spinoza, "God" meant Nature (including humanity). > > > Nonetheless, despite the humbling symmetry between the great world > > > theories, we all signal our allegiance to this one or that one by the > > > names we give to the One (God, Nature, matter, Allah, Spirit, ...) and > > > the Triad and in the case cited, Vygotsky is using a famous Hegelian > > > version of the triad, "in itself, for others, for itself": > > > > > > "The education and instruction of a child aim at making him actually > > > and for himself what he is at first only potentially and therefore > > > for others, viz., for his grown up friends. The Reason, which at > > > first exists in the child only as an inner possibility, is > > > actualised through education: and conversely, the child by these > > > means becomes conscious that the goodness, religion, and science > > > which he had at first looked upon as an outward authority, are his > > > own nature." > > > > > > Although the symmetry between the systems of thought we unkowingly > > > affiliate to is surprising, we all declare our affiliation by the name > > > we give to the One or the Triad, as the case may be. In the article > > > Larry cites, however, Zinchenko just seems to be chiding Vygotsky > > > repeatedly for failing to adhere to analytical Dualism. > > > > > > Andy > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > > > > >> I can try an answer, Huw. These idea of a triadic system, spirals of > > >> development, etc are core metaphors for expressing some sort of > > >> thirdness about human life. > > >> Father/son and holy ghost, id/ego/superego, subject/object/medium > > >> etc. It is a part of the Judeo-Christian system and aligns with > > >> non-religiously affiliated intuitions that dualism does not cut it as > a > > mode of thought. > > >> The trouble is, there are only two kinds of people in the world.... > > >> ! > > >> mike > > >> > > >> On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:14 PM, Huw Lloyd > > >> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> There seems to be a clear parallel between Vygotsky's use of the > > >>> formulation "in itself, for others, for itself" and Shpet's > > >>> referencing theological principium cognescenti which according to my > > >>> brief browsing are three principles: > > >>> principium essendi, principium cognoscendi externum, principium > > >>> cognoscendi internum. > > >>> > > >>> Is anyone here familiar with the etymology of these principles and > > >>> their bearing on Vygotsky's work? Is there more than a superficial > > >>> resemblance? > > >>> > > >>> Huw > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Jan 28 07:27:24 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 07:27:24 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback In-Reply-To: References: <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu> <1422401645485.14058@unm.edu> Message-ID: Huw, If Gal'perin is accurate in his depiction of Vygotsky's "style" of understanding and grasping meaning then it opens up a place to hear what Zinchenko is saying and indicating with new ears. I read Zinchenko as suggesting that the relations Vygotsky understood between thought and word ALSO extend to other "places" [topos] such as image and action and music. Fascinating On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 5:29 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > This is account, regarding Vygotsky's fluency, is from Haenen (1996, pp > 27-28): > > "There is a point concerning Vygotsky's personality that needs special > mention. Being a psychoneurologist and a medical practitioner, Gal'perin > (1986a) got the impression, that in a certain respect there was something > pathological about Vygotsky. He was in an unusual way, exceptionally > verbally gifted. If, for example, he had dictated some texts, they could > be published straight away, after minimum correction. This explained why > he published such a large list of titles in just one decade of being a > psychologist. That was only possible because he dictated so much and these > manuscripts could directly be sent to the publishers. From this it is > evident that he had an exceptional command of intellectual speech. > > However, according to Gal'perin (1986a), there was something curious about > Vygotsky's verbal giftedness. Gal'perin had once read at Luria's a note > written by Vygotsky himself in which he wonders what kind of primitivism he > is suffering from and what is happening to his senses. At the end of the > 1920s, Vygotsky used the term 'primitivism' in his defectological writings, > in which he first gave a general outline of the cultural-historical > approach. He considered primitivism the inability to use certain cultural > tools (see Van der Veer & Valsiner, 1991, p. 73). Apparently, Vygotsky > felt himself somehow blocked in his cultural development, because the > following occurred. When he saw a depicted or displayed representation of > something, he didn't understand anything about it. He could say what he > saw, but he had no grasp of the reference, the meaning or the quality of > it. On the other hand, if he had to tell somebody else about this very > representation, he came up with more than that person could see in it. > With him, everything emerged in speech! > > The same happened with music. Music meant nothing to Vygotsky on hearing > it. On the contrary when he read something about works of music, the words > he spoke sounded better than the works on paper. According to Gal'perin > (1986a), this aspect of Vygotsky bordered on pathology, because it was not > explainable as merely one-sidedness. You speak of one-sidedness, when one > personality trait is more strongly developed than another. With Vygotsky, > however, it was more a question of the complete absence of something. In > Gal'perin's view, it was something like agnosia, but that wasn't really it > either. Vygotsky knew, for example, that a particular object was a chair. > But that chair held no meaning for him; if he put it into words, then he > could tell you everything about that chair: the history of it, the part it > played in the life of the man who sat on it, etc..." > > Personally, I consider the business of determining exactly what someone > wrote, or said, as an imperative to be already a capitulation to > understanding. Instead of understanding one hankers after what someone has > said, what the signs are rather than the meanings --- what time the clock > says, rather than what time really is, what the professor has said, rather > than what is speaking the professor. > > I came to Vygtosky's thought and speech/language with an array of > thought-problems (which are inherently not about signs) and as such it was > a pleasure to read. > > Huw > > > On 28 January 2015 at 12:17, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > Annalisa, thanks for your thoughtful response here, and generally since > > joining this conversation. > > > > Your consideration of LSV's difficulty as an author provides many > > possibilities. I can't remember if "indifference to readers' > sensibilities" > > was a line I got from a source, or one I made up based on sources. If > > "indifference" is the problematic term, then I'm sure something more > gentle > > could be identified. > > > > I'm not too good at mind-reading, so don't think I can speak to LSV's > > motive, even if claiming his indifference, or however you might > > alternatively phrase it, suggests that whenever I wrote those lines, I > > thought I could. So I need to get out of the business of attempting to > > explain his motives, only the outcome: Most people agree that reading > > Vygotsky is pretty challenging, and for those of us who speak no Russian > > and rely on translations, often unreliable. > > > > I will offer another contextual factor in addition to others I've > > suggested (He wrote quickly and prolifically because his illness might > end > > his life at any time; he wrote by hand or dictated and did not appear to > > revise, a problem that I've also heard contributed to difficulties in > > reading Piaget--from Irving Sigel, I think, before he died.) This latter > > problem, I suspect, was exacerbated by terrible paper shortages in the > > Soviet Union. One of the most remarkable testaments to this problem > > concerns Bakhtin and his insatiable tobacco habit. During one severe > paper > > shortage, he began rolling cigarettes out of his written manuscripts, > thus > > depriving us of his whole corpus. (I think this story is related in the > > introduction to Speech Genres and Other Essays.) So even if Vygotsky had > > been inclined to revise, he might not have had the paper to do it with. > > > > Complicated stuff! p > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > > Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 6:34 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback > > > > Hi Peter! > > > > Thanks for your very robust and bursting reply. Here's my reply in kind > > and kindness. > > > > I do not disagree with anything said about the difficulty we all face > when > > we face the texts we have inherited from Vygotsky. So for this train of > > thought pulling away from the quay, I'd ask you leave that concern on the > > platform. > > > > What I troubles me, I suppose, is the notion that he "was indifferent to > > his reader's sensibilities." I don't believe that that is a fair > > representation of the historical facts, and perhaps all we are doing is > > arguing about interpretations of the history and the facts, and that is > > certainly fair game. > > > > However, what I see in Vygotsky, when I think about Vygotsky and his > > texts, is a great comet in the sky ready to burn out at any time and the > > faster he writes the brighter he burns. > > > > What I cannot help but see, employing my top-down-thinking sensibility, > is > > that Vygotsky may not have been interested in inner speech of children > > _just because_ it was an intriguing phenomenon uncovered by Piaget, that > it > > was the "cool hot topic," as we might say in today's vernacular. Could it > > be that Vygotsky had a *personal* interest in inner speech? that this was > > the shape of his own thought? an awareness and understanding of his own > way > > of thinking? Perhaps the writing that he left behind was not written down > > as indifference to his readers, but because he knew he lived in a time > and > > space in which the light might go out in his life at anytime. Perhaps the > > man didn't want to lose that thought which would lead to the very next > > thought and the train that would reveal more amazing vistas of the > > countryside of thoughts. > > > > In other words, the man was in a hurry to see a man about a dog. > > > > Or if I might decode that metaphor as I mean it: all his own work began > as > > inner speech, as a technique to capture his own thought. The written > > fragments we have before us are archeological remains of these flights of > > thought. He wasn't indifferent, it's just he wanted to interact privately > > with himself, a kind of inner speech. > > > > As I write this myself I suddenly thought, perhaps the writing was > nothing > > more than a tool to help him think, like the Einstein and the chalkboard. > > And maybe when Vygotsky first began the practice of writing down his > inner > > speech, he thought he'd have more time to decode, but as it became nearer > > the day for his comet to leave our orbit, he couldn't stop the train to > > revisit past stops, the train was fast in motion and what motivated him > was > > to get to his destination rather than considering where he'd already > been. > > Late trains have few opportunities to dilly-dally. > > > > Is it possible for us to look at his commentary about inner speech in > > children, and then "decode" his own writing? I don't know! But it was a > > thought of mine I'd had while reading your text. > > > > I also wonder, naively of course, whether the shards of his writing are > > actually carelessness, but "formlessness" ? > > > > Here's another emerging thought: Could this formlessness have been a > > possible obfuscation for political reasons? To my mind, if that were > true, > > such political reasons cannot be justly rendered as indifference, but a > > whole heck of a lot of care and carefulness. > > > > These are not claims I make strongly, but rather thinking out loud, to > > offer that Vygotsky did not seem to me in any way a muscular academic > > speaking to his own tribe with a devil-may-care attitude for everyone > else. > > What saddens me is that your phrase promulgates that kind of idea, at > least > > it did for me, and this possibly creates further obfuscation, something > of > > which we require less not more. My heartfelt wish is that you might > reflect > > on other possible reasons why the writing came to us in the forms that > they > > have. > > > > At first we can think, "Confounded these hieroglyphics!" or we can > instead > > look closer and realize there is actually a Rosetta stone before us. If > so, > > it means we have some decoding work to do, and that is just the way it > is. > > But we also have a responsibility to make those who come after us > > understand why it is Vygotsky must be handled with care. That seems to be > > something you and I share when thinking about his writing. > > > > But it was the affect effect that I had, a little disruptive "Oh my!" > when > > I'd read your interpretation that included this word "indifference," for > I > > think if you look to his character, "indifference" would be the very last > > word I would use to describe him. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Jan 28 07:40:34 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 08:40:34 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: help with Russian In-Reply-To: <54C881BF.20904@mira.net> References: <54C87D38.8070606@mira.net> <54C881BF.20904@mira.net> Message-ID: <588730DA-1941-4C97-B3F8-AC73D8D51773@gmail.com> Andy, I am thinking about two words in English: ?determinant? and ?determining?. Both are causal, but the first implies a result is a sure thing, the second, a tendency. ?Deterministic? would, maybe, implie the latter, the tendency? Henry > On Jan 27, 2015, at 11:29 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Cool. I will amend my copies. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Bella Kotik-Friedgut wrote: >> Andy I found >> ?????????????????? and in the context it really can be translated as causal. >> >> >> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >> >> On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:10 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >> >> The word ??????????????? which transliterates to "deterministic" >> and is translated as such in Chapter 1 of "Thinking and Speech" >> must surely have some other shade of meaning, as "deterministic" >> has a pejorative meaning in English, and the way Vygotsky is using >> it is not pejorative. >> Any suggestions? causal? >> Andy >> -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Jan 28 07:48:30 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 15:48:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback In-Reply-To: References: <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu> <1422401645485.14058@unm.edu> Message-ID: Larry, Yes, we can consider these various forms as related (genetically), but not as equivalent. My understanding of speech & text is that it is a sequential process (and hence remains at the level of consciousness). One cannot (I believe) flit between speech/text in the same manner as images which can be considered in parallel (operationally, with less conscious attention), If it wasn't for this consideration, I would be tempted to offer a functional metaphor of the swift that has evolved a functional basis of not requiring to use its legs. But my poetic sense would position the flight of the swift in the realm of flight of images, and not in the serialisation of appending boxes to boxes that is entailed in speech. >From my fleeting encounters with Shpet's thought, it seems that he wished to retain a wider sense what is meant by the word (because otherwise it reads like nonsense) this is the interpretation that Zinchenko provides in the last few pages of the cup chapter. Huw On 28 January 2015 at 15:27, Larry Purss wrote: > Huw, > If Gal'perin is accurate in his depiction of Vygotsky's "style" of > understanding and grasping meaning then it opens up a place to hear what > Zinchenko is saying and indicating with new ears. > I read Zinchenko as suggesting that the relations Vygotsky understood > between thought and word ALSO extend to other "places" [topos] such as > image and action and music. > > Fascinating > > > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 5:29 AM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > This is account, regarding Vygotsky's fluency, is from Haenen (1996, pp > > 27-28): > > > > "There is a point concerning Vygotsky's personality that needs special > > mention. Being a psychoneurologist and a medical practitioner, Gal'perin > > (1986a) got the impression, that in a certain respect there was something > > pathological about Vygotsky. He was in an unusual way, exceptionally > > verbally gifted. If, for example, he had dictated some texts, they could > > be published straight away, after minimum correction. This explained why > > he published such a large list of titles in just one decade of being a > > psychologist. That was only possible because he dictated so much and > these > > manuscripts could directly be sent to the publishers. From this it is > > evident that he had an exceptional command of intellectual speech. > > > > However, according to Gal'perin (1986a), there was something curious > about > > Vygotsky's verbal giftedness. Gal'perin had once read at Luria's a note > > written by Vygotsky himself in which he wonders what kind of primitivism > he > > is suffering from and what is happening to his senses. At the end of the > > 1920s, Vygotsky used the term 'primitivism' in his defectological > writings, > > in which he first gave a general outline of the cultural-historical > > approach. He considered primitivism the inability to use certain > cultural > > tools (see Van der Veer & Valsiner, 1991, p. 73). Apparently, Vygotsky > > felt himself somehow blocked in his cultural development, because the > > following occurred. When he saw a depicted or displayed representation > of > > something, he didn't understand anything about it. He could say what he > > saw, but he had no grasp of the reference, the meaning or the quality of > > it. On the other hand, if he had to tell somebody else about this very > > representation, he came up with more than that person could see in it. > > With him, everything emerged in speech! > > > > The same happened with music. Music meant nothing to Vygotsky on > hearing > > it. On the contrary when he read something about works of music, the > words > > he spoke sounded better than the works on paper. According to Gal'perin > > (1986a), this aspect of Vygotsky bordered on pathology, because it was > not > > explainable as merely one-sidedness. You speak of one-sidedness, when > one > > personality trait is more strongly developed than another. With > Vygotsky, > > however, it was more a question of the complete absence of something. In > > Gal'perin's view, it was something like agnosia, but that wasn't really > it > > either. Vygotsky knew, for example, that a particular object was a > chair. > > But that chair held no meaning for him; if he put it into words, then he > > could tell you everything about that chair: the history of it, the part > it > > played in the life of the man who sat on it, etc..." > > > > Personally, I consider the business of determining exactly what someone > > wrote, or said, as an imperative to be already a capitulation to > > understanding. Instead of understanding one hankers after what someone > has > > said, what the signs are rather than the meanings --- what time the clock > > says, rather than what time really is, what the professor has said, > rather > > than what is speaking the professor. > > > > I came to Vygtosky's thought and speech/language with an array of > > thought-problems (which are inherently not about signs) and as such it > was > > a pleasure to read. > > > > Huw > > > > > > On 28 January 2015 at 12:17, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > > > Annalisa, thanks for your thoughtful response here, and generally since > > > joining this conversation. > > > > > > Your consideration of LSV's difficulty as an author provides many > > > possibilities. I can't remember if "indifference to readers' > > sensibilities" > > > was a line I got from a source, or one I made up based on sources. If > > > "indifference" is the problematic term, then I'm sure something more > > gentle > > > could be identified. > > > > > > I'm not too good at mind-reading, so don't think I can speak to LSV's > > > motive, even if claiming his indifference, or however you might > > > alternatively phrase it, suggests that whenever I wrote those lines, I > > > thought I could. So I need to get out of the business of attempting to > > > explain his motives, only the outcome: Most people agree that reading > > > Vygotsky is pretty challenging, and for those of us who speak no > Russian > > > and rely on translations, often unreliable. > > > > > > I will offer another contextual factor in addition to others I've > > > suggested (He wrote quickly and prolifically because his illness might > > end > > > his life at any time; he wrote by hand or dictated and did not appear > to > > > revise, a problem that I've also heard contributed to difficulties in > > > reading Piaget--from Irving Sigel, I think, before he died.) This > latter > > > problem, I suspect, was exacerbated by terrible paper shortages in the > > > Soviet Union. One of the most remarkable testaments to this problem > > > concerns Bakhtin and his insatiable tobacco habit. During one severe > > paper > > > shortage, he began rolling cigarettes out of his written manuscripts, > > thus > > > depriving us of his whole corpus. (I think this story is related in the > > > introduction to Speech Genres and Other Essays.) So even if Vygotsky > had > > > been inclined to revise, he might not have had the paper to do it with. > > > > > > Complicated stuff! p > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 6:34 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback > > > > > > Hi Peter! > > > > > > Thanks for your very robust and bursting reply. Here's my reply in kind > > > and kindness. > > > > > > I do not disagree with anything said about the difficulty we all face > > when > > > we face the texts we have inherited from Vygotsky. So for this train of > > > thought pulling away from the quay, I'd ask you leave that concern on > the > > > platform. > > > > > > What I troubles me, I suppose, is the notion that he "was indifferent > to > > > his reader's sensibilities." I don't believe that that is a fair > > > representation of the historical facts, and perhaps all we are doing is > > > arguing about interpretations of the history and the facts, and that is > > > certainly fair game. > > > > > > However, what I see in Vygotsky, when I think about Vygotsky and his > > > texts, is a great comet in the sky ready to burn out at any time and > the > > > faster he writes the brighter he burns. > > > > > > What I cannot help but see, employing my top-down-thinking sensibility, > > is > > > that Vygotsky may not have been interested in inner speech of children > > > _just because_ it was an intriguing phenomenon uncovered by Piaget, > that > > it > > > was the "cool hot topic," as we might say in today's vernacular. Could > it > > > be that Vygotsky had a *personal* interest in inner speech? that this > was > > > the shape of his own thought? an awareness and understanding of his own > > way > > > of thinking? Perhaps the writing that he left behind was not written > down > > > as indifference to his readers, but because he knew he lived in a time > > and > > > space in which the light might go out in his life at anytime. Perhaps > the > > > man didn't want to lose that thought which would lead to the very next > > > thought and the train that would reveal more amazing vistas of the > > > countryside of thoughts. > > > > > > In other words, the man was in a hurry to see a man about a dog. > > > > > > Or if I might decode that metaphor as I mean it: all his own work began > > as > > > inner speech, as a technique to capture his own thought. The written > > > fragments we have before us are archeological remains of these flights > of > > > thought. He wasn't indifferent, it's just he wanted to interact > privately > > > with himself, a kind of inner speech. > > > > > > As I write this myself I suddenly thought, perhaps the writing was > > nothing > > > more than a tool to help him think, like the Einstein and the > chalkboard. > > > And maybe when Vygotsky first began the practice of writing down his > > inner > > > speech, he thought he'd have more time to decode, but as it became > nearer > > > the day for his comet to leave our orbit, he couldn't stop the train to > > > revisit past stops, the train was fast in motion and what motivated him > > was > > > to get to his destination rather than considering where he'd already > > been. > > > Late trains have few opportunities to dilly-dally. > > > > > > Is it possible for us to look at his commentary about inner speech in > > > children, and then "decode" his own writing? I don't know! But it was a > > > thought of mine I'd had while reading your text. > > > > > > I also wonder, naively of course, whether the shards of his writing are > > > actually carelessness, but "formlessness" ? > > > > > > Here's another emerging thought: Could this formlessness have been a > > > possible obfuscation for political reasons? To my mind, if that were > > true, > > > such political reasons cannot be justly rendered as indifference, but a > > > whole heck of a lot of care and carefulness. > > > > > > These are not claims I make strongly, but rather thinking out loud, to > > > offer that Vygotsky did not seem to me in any way a muscular academic > > > speaking to his own tribe with a devil-may-care attitude for everyone > > else. > > > What saddens me is that your phrase promulgates that kind of idea, at > > least > > > it did for me, and this possibly creates further obfuscation, something > > of > > > which we require less not more. My heartfelt wish is that you might > > reflect > > > on other possible reasons why the writing came to us in the forms that > > they > > > have. > > > > > > At first we can think, "Confounded these hieroglyphics!" or we can > > instead > > > look closer and realize there is actually a Rosetta stone before us. If > > so, > > > it means we have some decoding work to do, and that is just the way it > > is. > > > But we also have a responsibility to make those who come after us > > > understand why it is Vygotsky must be handled with care. That seems to > be > > > something you and I share when thinking about his writing. > > > > > > But it was the affect effect that I had, a little disruptive "Oh my!" > > when > > > I'd read your interpretation that included this word "indifference," > for > > I > > > think if you look to his character, "indifference" would be the very > last > > > word I would use to describe him. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From bealigorio@hotmail.com Wed Jan 28 11:17:29 2015 From: bealigorio@hotmail.com (Beatrice Ligorio) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 19:17:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Qwerty call for paper In-Reply-To: References: , , <54C84DBF.4040608@mira.net>, , , Message-ID: Dear all, sorry to step in with a message not related to any current discussion but I would like to share with you all the call for paper here attached. I believe the theme can be of some interest for many of you: ?Innovation and digital technology: Between continuity and change?. Actually a great source of inspiration for this theme has been Mike and some of its work on sustainability. Qwerty is an Interdisciplinary Journal of Technology, Culture and Education and Mike is in the Scientific Committee. Please check out the web site http://www.ckbg.org/qwerty/ and do not hesitate to contact me if you need more information. Any support in letting the call circulating would be greatly appreciated. Best regards Beatrice -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Call_Qwerty_Vol. 10_2_En.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 557384 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150128/52ce7a24/attachment.pdf From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jan 28 19:44:14 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 03:44:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback In-Reply-To: References: <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu> <1422401645485.14058@unm.edu> , Message-ID: <1422503054533.63804@unm.edu> Huw, Thank you very much for the addendum from Haenen (what is the name of the book?). I did not know this about Vygotsky. I could see how Peter might sense indifference, because in a sense, according to this affliction, Vygotsky was. Is this not sort of the inversion of what we learned in the Notes on Blindness video, in which John Hull talks about remembering the photograph better than in-person percepts at least in regard to remembering the faces of his family members? Does this mean that Vygotsky couldn't read images (is this correct?) What isn't clear from your quote is if he could recognize the object in the representation (as a whole image) or could he only see aspects of it? This reminds me of a musician who can play a guitar beautifully because of technical mastery, but doesn't hear the melody, and so cannot enjoy the tune. Anyway for me the plot thickens! Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Jan 28 20:32:02 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 20:32:02 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti In-Reply-To: References: <54C84DBF.4040608@mira.net> Message-ID: I am not sure how interested others are on what I would refer to as the "theme" of the "Trinity" and how Christian motifs may weave into other places in historical constructions. I am attaching two notes from an article by Steven Cassedy who is situating Shpet in his cultural historical epoch. The title of the article is: Gustav Shpet and Phenomenology in an Orthodox Key. The notes are following up on Cassedy's claim that Hegel's understanding of the "incarnation" on the Russian understanding of the same concept in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. *NOTE 33:* Shpet?s involvement with Hegel has been little commented on. Hegel?s name appears fairly often in Shpet?s writings, and Shpet spent the last years of his life translating the *Phenomenology of Spirit *into Russian. Perhaps the clearest evidence that Shpet was on some level a Hegelian is the long essay he wrote in 1918 called ?Germenevtika i ee problemy? (Hermeneutics and its problems). This essay, which is largely a history of the science of interpretation from classical times to Dilthey, not only contains references to Hegel and his ideas, but follows a method of exposition that can only be described as Hegelian, each new stage in the history of Shpet?s subject following from the previous by a logic similar to the one Hegel finds in the unfolding of Spirit and history. See ?Germenevtika i ee problemy,? in *Kontekst *(1989): 229?67; *Kontekst *(1990): 219?59; *Kontekst* (1991): 215?55. See the editor?s introduction, pp. 229?30 of the first installment, for a reference to the Hegelian style of the essay. *NOTE 34* Hegel commented on this subject in a number of places. In the *Phenomenology* *of Spirit*, for example, he says this: ?This incarnation [*Menschwerdung*] of the divine being, or the fact that it essentially and immediately has the form of self-consciousness, is the simple content of absolute religion. In this religion the being of God is known, or this being is its consciousness that it is itself Spirit. For Spirit is the knowledge of oneself in one?s externalization.? See Hegel, *Werke in* *zwanzig B?anden*, eds. Eva Moldenhauer and Karl Markus Michel (Frankfurt am Main: Suhrkamp, 1970), 3: 552. See also, in the ?Philosophy of Spirit? section of the *Encyclopedia*, the passage where Hegel distinguishes the Christian doctrine of the incarnation from similar doctrines in other religions: ?It was Christianity that for the first time, through the doctrine of the incarnation [ *Menschwerdung*] of God and the presence of the Holy Spirit in the community of believers, gave to human consciousness an entirely free relation to the infinite and thereby made possible a comprehending knowledge [*begreifende Erkenntnis*] of the spirit in its absolute infinitude? (Hegel, *Werke*, 10: 10). Or, in the *Lectures on the Philosophy* *of Religion*: ?This determination, that God shall become man, so that the finite spirit may have the consciousness of God in the finite itself, is the weightiest [*schwerste*] moment in religion : : : but for man, the unity of divine and human nature is brought to consciousness, to certainty, in [the belief] that the otherness or, as one might express it, the finitude, the weakness, the frailty of human nature is not incompatible with this unity, just as in the eternal idea otherness in no way detracts from the unity that is God? (Hegel, *Werke*, 17: 276?78). *NOTE 35* In the *Philosophy of Religion*, Hegel says, ?Every *activity*, every producing, every creating is already a principle that is distinct from the abstract general and that, as a second principle, appears thus and can appear as that which manifests itself, that which expresses itself (Logos, Sophia)? (Hegel, *Werke*, 17: 234). Emphasis in the original. And, a few pages later: ?God is the creator, in the determination of the *Logos*, as the *Word *that expresses and articulates itself? (Hegel, *Werke*, 17: 239). Emphasis in the original. *comment:* Mike mentioned the notion of thirds [third spaces, third places, third topos]. I am intrigued by the multiple ways this "theme" plays out through historical consciousness [or historical ontology] Larry On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Oscillation between conceptions or technical foci seems pretty normal to > me, Larry. However, I don't read that as an invitation for dualism. Its > more of a technical problem than a big deal about dualistic thinking etc, > as I see it. > > Huw > > On 28 January 2015 at 15:15, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Huw > > When you mention the oscillations are not a big deal but what is > > interesting is the transitions between FROM essential to internal to > > external I would just mention to explore your interest is what Zinchenko > > was approaching. He mentions that the image of oscillation haunts him > and > > therefore this is the imaginal "energy" or "force" that propels him to > > engage and embody the understanding of these transitions. > > > > Martin also mentioned Shpet's book that has been translated into English > is > > an early book written around 1918. The topic [topos or space] was > > to introduce Husserl to Russia and was written only one year after > > Husserl's book. This "Husserl" is the 1917 Husserl that Vygotsky was > > responding to. However, Shpet's work developed beyond Husserl and was > > focused on the historical coming into being of phenomena that was > socially > > embodied. > > However, Shpet was not Marxist and his work on the transitions from > > essential to internal to external were deeply informed by Plato. > Therefore > > his fate was sealed. > > > > However, for a number of years after 1917 Shpet's exploring the > > transformations from essential to internal to external were actively > > approached by a group of scholars gathered around this topic. > > > > IShpet wrote a book on the topic of thought and word and it is this topos > > [third space] that Zinchenko is now exploring through the figure of > > oscillation. > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 6:00 AM, Peter Smagorinsky > wrote: > > > > > I'm hardly an expert on Shpet; most of what I know comes from The > > > Cambridge Companion to Vygotsky. Again with apologies for quoting > > myself, I > > > think that it's important to contextualize Vygotsky's challenges in > > > referencing his mentors in repressive times. P. 8, Smagorinsky, P. > > (2011). > > > Vygotsky and literacy research: A methodological framework. Boston: > > Sense. > > > > > > The Soviet system has long been known for its brutal reinforcement of > its > > > ideol-ogy, and in its early days and through at least the 1950s > monitored > > > its psycholo-gists with a vengeance (see Cole, Levitin, & Luria, 2006). > > > Because of the excessive role he identified for individual development > in > > > social context, says Zinchenko (2007), ?Vygotsky?s commitment to > Marxist > > > beliefs did not save him from criti-cism. His works were banned, > > denounced, > > > and declared to be vicious and even evil. He was lucky to have managed > to > > > die in his own bed in 1934? (p. 213). Some believe that Vygotsky > allowed > > > himself to die rather than face interrogation, torture, and execution > by > > > the authorities over his departure from the state?s more exacting > > > interpretation of Marx (M. Cole, personal communication). > > > Others, however, were not so fortunate to die of natural > causes. > > > In Thinking and Speech, Vygotsky did not reference Gustav Gustavovich > > > Shpet, one of his mentors. Vygotsky likely avoided acknowledging Shpet > > > because did not wish to bring upon himself the fate of Shpet himself, > who > > > was dismissed from his academic positions on multiple occasions and > > > subjected to ?brutal interrogation and execution in 1937? by Soviet > > > authorities (Wertsch, 2007, p. 184). Shpet made the fatal error of > > > exhibiting ?freedom and dignity and the independence of his thought > from > > > Marxist-Leninist ideology, which at the time was growing stronger and > > > stronger? (Zinchenko, 2007, p. 212). Shpet?s literary contemporary > > > Mandel?shtam, notes Zinchenko, met the fate of many Soviets, no matter > > how > > > seemingly benign their field of endeavor, who in any way defied the > party > > > position: He died in the Gulag in 1938. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 8:53 AM > > > To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti > > > > > > So people find the three-ness interesting? The thing I thought might > be > > > interesting was the transitions from essential to external to internal. > > > > > > I can't say I read anything about dualism into the article. The > > > oscillation (which didn't strike me as being a big deal) was between > the > > > variously given forms of phenomena (if I recall correctly). > Zinchenko's > > > referencing functional organs and his intimate work with ergonomics etc > > > permit him an alternative form of investigation, that doesn't rely > upon a > > > dialectic description (but that is compatible with it). > > > > > > Huw > > > > > > On 28 January 2015 at 02:47, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > > > > Apparently these principium triad comes from the Theologian Hermann > > > > Bavinck: all knowledge begins with God, and via the Scriptures, man > > > > can make it his own knowledge. > > > > But in line with Mike's observation, I well remember the perezhivanie > > > > I had when a friend pointed out the parallels between the Marxist > > > > conception of primitive communism - civilization - socialist society, > > > > and not just the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden, but a half a > dozen > > > > narratives or our own time. Paralleled by the perezhivanie I had when > > > > I read that for Spinoza, "God" meant Nature (including humanity). > > > > Nonetheless, despite the humbling symmetry between the great world > > > > theories, we all signal our allegiance to this one or that one by the > > > > names we give to the One (God, Nature, matter, Allah, Spirit, ...) > and > > > > the Triad and in the case cited, Vygotsky is using a famous Hegelian > > > > version of the triad, "in itself, for others, for itself": > > > > > > > > "The education and instruction of a child aim at making him > actually > > > > and for himself what he is at first only potentially and therefore > > > > for others, viz., for his grown up friends. The Reason, which at > > > > first exists in the child only as an inner possibility, is > > > > actualised through education: and conversely, the child by these > > > > means becomes conscious that the goodness, religion, and science > > > > which he had at first looked upon as an outward authority, are his > > > > own nature." > > > > > > > > Although the symmetry between the systems of thought we unkowingly > > > > affiliate to is surprising, we all declare our affiliation by the > name > > > > we give to the One or the Triad, as the case may be. In the article > > > > Larry cites, however, Zinchenko just seems to be chiding Vygotsky > > > > repeatedly for failing to adhere to analytical Dualism. > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -- > > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > >> I can try an answer, Huw. These idea of a triadic system, spirals of > > > >> development, etc are core metaphors for expressing some sort of > > > >> thirdness about human life. > > > >> Father/son and holy ghost, id/ego/superego, subject/object/medium > > > >> etc. It is a part of the Judeo-Christian system and aligns with > > > >> non-religiously affiliated intuitions that dualism does not cut it > as > > a > > > mode of thought. > > > >> The trouble is, there are only two kinds of people in the world.... > > > >> ! > > > >> mike > > > >> > > > >> On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:14 PM, Huw Lloyd > > > >> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> There seems to be a clear parallel between Vygotsky's use of the > > > >>> formulation "in itself, for others, for itself" and Shpet's > > > >>> referencing theological principium cognescenti which according to > my > > > >>> brief browsing are three principles: > > > >>> principium essendi, principium cognoscendi externum, principium > > > >>> cognoscendi internum. > > > >>> > > > >>> Is anyone here familiar with the etymology of these principles and > > > >>> their bearing on Vygotsky's work? Is there more than a superficial > > > >>> resemblance? > > > >>> > > > >>> Huw > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Jan 29 02:35:15 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 10:35:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback In-Reply-To: <1422503054533.63804@unm.edu> References: <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu> <1422401645485.14058@unm.edu> <1422503054533.63804@unm.edu> Message-ID: Haenen, J. (1996) *Piotr Gal'perin: Psychologist in Vygotsky's Footsteps*. New York: Nova Huw On 29 January 2015 at 03:44, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Huw, > > Thank you very much for the addendum from Haenen (what is the name of the > book?). I did not know this about Vygotsky. > > I could see how Peter might sense indifference, because in a sense, > according to this affliction, Vygotsky was. > > Is this not sort of the inversion of what we learned in the Notes on > Blindness video, in which John Hull talks about remembering the photograph > better than in-person percepts at least in regard to remembering the faces > of his family members? > > Does this mean that Vygotsky couldn't read images (is this correct?) What > isn't clear from your quote is if he could recognize the object in the > representation (as a whole image) or could he only see aspects of it? > > This reminds me of a musician who can play a guitar beautifully because of > technical mastery, but doesn't hear the melody, and so cannot enjoy the > tune. > > Anyway for me the plot thickens! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Jan 29 07:07:53 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 07:07:53 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] The notion of essences and prototypes Message-ID: Huw mentioned his interest in transformations of essences, inner form and external form. Is the notion of "prototype" involved in these oscillations? Icons as symbolizing meaning and in the valuing objects one gives value to its prototype, meaning "original". The prototype as "essence" I am curious if "themes" [such as the prototype of trinity] transfer from theological to other critical ? forms that may carry a similar "prototype" From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Jan 29 07:28:12 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 07:28:12 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The notion of essences and prototypes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Shpet was exploring [and expressing] what he termed a "new realism" A realism expressing what "is" in contrast to what "seems". Cultural forms are created [co-created] but become real only in our "recognition" of the form and in its "realization" [objectification, signification] IN an apprehensible form. Does this add to the conversation on determin meaning cause/effect OR in contrast "tendency" [theme??] On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 7:07 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > Huw mentioned his interest in transformations of essences, inner form and > external form. > Is the notion of "prototype" involved in these oscillations? Icons as > symbolizing meaning and in the valuing objects one gives value to its > prototype, meaning "original". > The prototype as "essence" > > I am curious if "themes" [such as the prototype of trinity] transfer from > theological to other critical ? forms that may carry a similar "prototype" > From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jan 29 08:30:49 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 08:30:49 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Reference data bases Message-ID: Dear Colleagues - In working through a recent review paper, I began to experience severe difficulties in keeping track of pdfs in connection with the refs. Are there any recommendations among you for a reliable, pretty large (able to take several thousand refs/pdfs) utility that a non-adept could use effectively? I imagine others might have a similar question.... or will have soon enough! Thanks for any help on this. mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch Thu Jan 29 08:45:17 2015 From: Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch (PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 16:45:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Mike, I have been using Endnote: I attach pdf to the reference. It seems to work pretty well. Best Anne-Nelly Prof. hon. Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont Institut de psychologie et ?ducation Facult? des lettres et sciences humaines Universit? de Neuch?tel Espace L. Agassiz 1, CH- 2000 Neuch?tel (Switzerland) tel.:+41 32 718 18 56 fax: +41 32 718 18 51 www2.unine.ch/ipe http://www2.unine.ch/anne-nelly.perret-clermont/ Let me share the pleasure of this gift prepared by some colleagues on the occasion of my retirement: Zittoun, T. & Iannaccone, A. (Eds.). (2014). Activities of Thinking in Social Spaces. New York: Nova Science Publishers Inc. -----Message d'origine----- De : mike cole R?pondre ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date : jeudi, 29 janvier 2015 17:30 ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Objet : [Xmca-l] Reference data bases Dear Colleagues - In working through a recent review paper, I began to experience severe difficulties in keeping track of pdfs in connection with the refs. Are there any recommendations among you for a reliable, pretty large (able to take several thousand refs/pdfs) utility that a non-adept could use effectively? I imagine others might have a similar question.... or will have soon enough! Thanks for any help on this. mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Jan 29 08:47:16 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 16:47:16 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, I use BookEnds to hold article pdfs and their citations. It works very well, and generates automatic bibliographies in a variety of formats. What I'm having problems with, though, is keeping track of the relations among different articles. I've been looking for software that will generate some kind of semantic network based on the keywords I've assigned in BookEnds. I've tried DevonThink and so far that has been a complete failure. I'd be very interested to learn what other xmcaers are using. Martin On Jan 29, 2015, at 11:30 AM, mike cole wrote: > Dear Colleagues - In working through a recent review paper, I began to > experience severe difficulties in keeping track of pdfs in connection with > the refs. Are there any recommendations among you for a reliable, pretty > large (able to take several thousand refs/pdfs) > utility that a non-adept could use effectively? I imagine others might have > a similar question.... or will have soon enough! > > Thanks for any help on this. > > mike > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jan 29 08:47:09 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 08:47:09 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback In-Reply-To: References: <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu> Message-ID: ?Among the important issues in this note from Francine is the importance of the work of D.B. Elkonin to MCA, especially given the widespread interest in play and imagination. I have now recovered Elkonin's book on play, which appeared in English in 2005. I attach here only the editor's preface and first chapter, uncertain as to interest in the group. mike ? On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 9:37 AM, larry smolucha wrote: > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > Dear Peter and XMCA colleagues, > > I must respectively disagree with the Peter's argument that understanding > Vygotsky's writings (akin to interpreting them) has to be left to elite > Vygotsky translators (like Van de Veer). I prefer an approach that views > Vygotsky for Everyman (and Woman). An analogy can be found with the way > anybody can find inspirational quotes from any great literature such as > the Bible > or the U.S. Constitution/Declaration of Independence. Of course there are > those Biblical scholars, and scholars of Constitutional Law, who would > look down > their noses at the common man's understanding of passages from these works. > It comes down to the difference between analysis and inspiration. > > My pioneering translations of Vygotsky's three papers on the development of > imagination and creativity were done in the 1980's on my own. I was a > graduate > student and community college professor (low status in academia). My > interpretations > stand on their own and are still viable today. For the record, I have > found that > the interpretations of Vygotsky advanced by Van de Veer, Valsinar, > Wertsch, Daniels, > (and yes even Michael Cole) have been shaped by Leontiev's Activity > Theory and the > Soviet era Russian psychologists like Vladimir Zinchenko. There are a > couple > Russian psychologists who have concurred with my assessment - Elena > Budrova told > me that my understanding was consistent with the El'konin approach to > Vygotsky. > [I have also read El'konin's Psychology of Play in Russian - there is no > published English translation] The El'Konin approach was suppressed in the > Soviet Union by the establishment psychologists of Activity Theory. Also, > Tatiana Akhutina and I found we shared an understanding of Vygotsky based > on our shared appreciation of Luria's work on the > prefrontal cortex. > > I do agree with Peter in that scholarly works based on a Vygotskian > approach need > to have citations, and a bibliography from several of Vygotsky's works > (even better > citing Russian publications of Vygotsky's works.) This further establishes > the scholarly > authority of the interpretation. Merely citing passages from Mind in > Society is no longer > adequate. > > > > > From: smago@uga.edu > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:34:40 +0000 > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback > > > > Annalisa, my apologies for recycling things I've already written. > Perhaps the following helps with your question. From Smagorinsky, P. > (2011). Vygotsky and literacy research: A methodological framework. Boston: > Sense. Pp. 4-6 > > > > Problems in Translation > > Reading extensively in Vygotskian scholarship seems critical to > referencing him knowledgeably, given the challenges that Vygotsky's writing > presents to the 21st Century reader. Among these challenges is the problem > that most of his readers, particularly in North America, encounter him > through translation. In Daniels, Cole, and Wertsch's (2007) collection of > international papers outlining a Vygotskian perspective, a number of the > contributors are fluent speakers of Russian. However, even those whom I > consider to be conversant with Vygotsky's original writing-those whose > publications are rife with references to works of Vygotsky that are only > available in Russian-are cautious about their grasp of both the language > and the concepts. > > Michael Cole, who has spoken Russian for many decades, who lived > in the for-mer Soviet Union during his internship with A. R. Luria, who > served as co-editor and co-translator of Mind in Society (Vygotsky, 1978), > whose leadership in the Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition has > helped to shape worldwide extensions of Russian psychology, who was the > founding editor of the journal Mind, Culture, and Activity, and who has > produced a number of foundational works in the Vygotskian tradition, wrote > in response to my inquiry that "I have been writing jointly with [Russian > Natalia Gajdamaschko] precisely because I feel so strongly the need for > more than simple translation help in dealing with the meta-psychology and > national ethos that is the relevant context for understanding the local > words" (M. Cole, personal communication). James Wertsch, who has spent > considerable time in the Soviet Union, Russia, and many former Soviet > states where Russian remains the lingua franca, and who has translated > Vygotsky into English (e.g., Wertsch, 1981), also backs off from claims > that his knowledge of Russian could be termed fluent (J. Wertsch, personal > communication). > > As someone whose only linkage to Vygotsky's Byelorussian roots > comes through my grandparents' origins in Vygotsky's hometown of Gomel, I > read the qualifiers by Cole and Wertsch as cautions regarding any claims to > understanding Vygotsky for those of us who speak no Russian at all. I rely > on the translations of others, including those who express limited > confidence in their own fluency. Most North American readers face this same > problem, and so the challenges of reading a major thinker only in > translation-especially translation that spans alphabets, cultures, > concepts, and other formidable barriers-are thus worth reviewing here. > > At present there are abundant Vygotskian texts available to the > English lan-guage reader: six volumes of collected works in publication, > additional books from his oeuvre available (e.g., Vygotsky, 1971, 1997; > Vygotsky & Luria, 1993), key texts subjected to multiple translations, and > a major project now underway in Russia to make his entire output available > to English-speaking readers. Yet Vygotsky remains a complex figure and > difficult scholar to grasp, and for a variety of reasons. In his > "Translator's Foreword and Acknowledgements" to The Collected Works, Volume > 3, Van der Veer says, "I have not attempted to improve Vygotsky's style of > writing although it was at times difficult to refrain from doing so. It is > clear that Vygotsky . . . never rewrote a text for the sake of improving > its style and readability. Hence the redundancy, the difficulty to follow > the thread of his argument, the awkward sentences, etc." (p. v). > > Meshcheryakov (2007) notes that Vygotsky produced 190 works within > the ten-year span that comprised his career, many of which "were written > very quickly, in almost telegraphic style. Some works remain unfinished. It > is certainly possible that some of the works that were published > posthumously were not yet intended for publication" (p. 155). Daniels et > al. (2007) assert that "It is difficult to reconcile some of the writing > from the early 1920s with that which was produced during the last 2 years > of his life. These rapid changes, coupled with the fact that his work was > not published in chronological order, make synthetic summaries of his work > difficult" (p. 2). So in addition to the difficulty of the ideas Vygotsky > produced, his rendering of them into text made for challenging reading, no > matter how well-prepared the reader is. > > Even those with extraordinary fluency in Vygotsky's work typically > consult others to help with their understanding. Van der Veer, a native of > the Netherlands, relates in his translator's introduction to the Collected > Works, Volume 3 that "After I had translated the whole volume [from Russian > to English], I carefully checked my translation against the German and > Spanish translations of the same volume" (1997, p. v). With five languages > at play in his effort to translate Vygotsky's al-ready-difficult prose and > concepts (German, Spanish, Russian, English, and Dutch), Van der Veer > further enlisted feedback from a host of colleagues (mostly European) in > order to amend Vygotsky's "sloppy" approach to citation by includ-ing > appropriate references and footnotes to provide depth, detail, and > clarification to the text. > > Van der Veer's (1997) meticulous approach to rendering Vygotsky > into English suggests one key lesson to be learned from reading Vygotsky > with any insight: that claims to understanding or implementing ideas must > be undertaken with care and caution. I refer again to Van der Veer's work > in underscoring the importance of reading more than just excerpts (or > summaries of excerpts, or summaries of those summaries in textbooks) from > Mind in Society in claiming a Vygotskian perspec-tive. In his review of an > Italian translation of Thinking and Speech that post-dates any version of > the text available in English, Van der Veer makes the remarkable point that > > Unfortunately, neither in English nor in any other language has a > reliable repub-lication of Thought and Language been available. Leaving > aside the questions that can be raised concerning the original Soviet 1934 > edition (Vygotsky did not see the book in print and the editor, > Kolbanovsky, changed some of the wordings to make the book more palatable > for the ideological leaders), we know that the later 1956 and 1982 Soviet > editions were marred by many mistakes and plain falsifications. All of the > existing translations into English, or any other language, took these > unreliable later editions as their point of departure. As a result, readers > unable to read Russian or find a copy of the original 1934 edition have > had, until now, no authoritative text of Thought and Language available. > (p. 83; cf. van der Veer, 1987, for a critical review of Kozulin's 1986 > translation of Thought and Language, which to van der Veer is more properly > translated as Thinking and Speech) > > I am impressed that Van der Veer is now sufficiently fluent in at > least six lan-guages to read Vygotsky and then make this judgment; I am > alarmed that he nonetheless states that "Vygotsky obviously preferred > principled opponents, such as Pavlov, who made their own original > contribution to science and invented their own scientific vocabulary to > mediocre university professors, such as the present writer, who can only > summarize what others have discovered" (2007, p. 37). If I'm not > sufficiently daunted to learn that Van der Veer regards himself as a > relative mediocrity, I cringe yet further when I realize that even though > I've been referencing Vygotsky in my own work since the early 1990s, I > probably am basing my understanding on inaccurate and incomplete > translations. It becomes important, then, for me and no doubt others to > engage with the work of Vygotskian scholars who have read his Russian texts > in order to develop a clearer grasp of the ideas that I believe I am > drawing on. > > If problems of direct translation of Vygotsky's work were not > enough of a chal-lenge, the fact that he did not necessarily pen his own > texts presents another. His magnum opus, Thinking and Speech, was published > in 1934, the year he died; he dictated sections from his sickbed, no doubt > contributing to the text's notorious difficulty (Zinchenko, 2007). Further, > some of what is published under his name is taken from his student's > lecture notes or other stenographic records, undoubtedly with gaps in > transcription and reformulation in expression (e.g., a set of lectures > included in the Collected Works, Volume 5: "The Crisis of the First Year," > "Early Childhood," "The Crisis at Age Three," "The Crisis at Age Seven"; > Vygotsky, 1998b). Making definitive claims, as do Gredler and Shields > (2004), regarding what Vygotsky did and did not say, is thus a precarious > undertaking that even the most reputable U. S. Vygotskian scholars should > attempt with considerable caution and temperance. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2015 5:26 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback > > > > Wow! > > > > This book looks really cool! Thanks for bringing it to listserv > consciousness, Peter! > > > > I did not know that Vygotsky was notoriously indifferent to his reader's > sensibilities. I do not know what that means? > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/lev-vygotsky-9781472504920/ > > > > > > 12-18-2014 > > ? > > About Lev Vygotsky > > > > Lev Vygotsky, the great Russian psychologist, had a profound influence > on educational thought. His work on the perception of art, > cultural-historical theory of the mind and the zone of proximal development > all had an impact on modern education. > > > > This text provides a succinct critical account of Vygotsky's life and > work against the background of the political events and social turmoil of > that time and analyses his cross-cultural research and the application of > his ideas to contemporary education. Ren? van der Veer offers his own > interpretation of Vygotsky as both the man and anti-man of educational > philosophy, concluding that the strength of Vygotsky's legacy lies in its > unfinished, open nature. > > > > Table Of Contents > > > > Foreword > > Series Editor's Preface > > Preface > > > > Introduction > > > > Part I: Intellectual Biography > > 1. Lev Vygotsky > > > > Part II: Critical Exposition of Vygotsky's Work 2. Early Writings 3. > Creating Cultural-historical Theory 4. The Zone of Proximal Development 5. > Cross-cultural Education > > > > Part III: The Reception, Influence and Relevance of Vygotsky's Work > Today 6. Contemporary Educational Research 7. Conclusions > > > > Bibliography > > Name Index > > Subject Index > > > > Reviews > > > > "In this concise intellectual biography of L. S. Vygotsky, eminent > Vygotskian authority Ren? van der Veer has written an accessible account of > the major periods of Vygotsky's career, reviewing the development of > Vygotsky's thinking in plain and often witty language, a service of > immeasurable importance, given Vygotsky's notorious indifference to his > readers' sensibilities... This volume is straightforward and edifying > enough for undergraduates, and stimulating and informative enough for those > who have been immersed in Vygotskian scholarship for many decades." - > Peter Smagorinsky, The University of Georgia, USA, > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: elkonin1.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 50420 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150129/040e0438/attachment.pdf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: elkonin2.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 70485 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150129/040e0438/attachment-0001.pdf From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Jan 29 08:50:14 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 09:50:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just talking this over with my students yesterday. Endnote is probably the most common utility. Here is a link: http://endnote.com/product-details Intro and training videos for endnote can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/user/EndNoteTraining Mendeley has a very friendly interface for reading and marking up pdf's. You can store pdf's on your device or you can store them in the cloud for a monthly fee. http://www.mendeley.com/ Zotero is, I think, particularly easy to use if you are just looking for an easy way to cite-while-you-write (the others have this capability too), but you have to use Mozilla in order to use it: https://www.zotero.org/ There are other more stripped-down versions like Refworks, but for what you want to do I'm guessing that Endnote is probably what you want. It also looks like X7 version has cloud sharing too so you can store your entire library in the cloud and access it anywhere and even share it with up to 12 people! Mike, since you are a man on the move, I think you could really take advantage of that... -greg On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:30 AM, mike cole wrote: > Dear Colleagues - In working through a recent review paper, I began to > experience severe difficulties in keeping track of pdfs in connection with > the refs. Are there any recommendations among you for a reliable, pretty > large (able to take several thousand refs/pdfs) > utility that a non-adept could use effectively? I imagine others might have > a similar question.... or will have soon enough! > > Thanks for any help on this. > > mike > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Jan 29 08:52:21 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 09:52:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, and all three of the ones I mentioned have the ability to easily cite-while-you-write and to automatically create bibliographies. Martin, do you have any thoughts for why BookEnds over Endnote? -greg On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Just talking this over with my students yesterday. > > Endnote is probably the most common utility. Here is a link: > http://endnote.com/product-details > Intro and training videos for endnote can be found here: > https://www.youtube.com/user/EndNoteTraining > > Mendeley has a very friendly interface for reading and marking up pdf's. > You can store pdf's on your device or you can store them in the cloud for a > monthly fee. > http://www.mendeley.com/ > > Zotero is, I think, particularly easy to use if you are just looking for > an easy way to cite-while-you-write (the others have this capability too), > but you have to use Mozilla in order to use it: > https://www.zotero.org/ > > There are other more stripped-down versions like Refworks, but for what > you want to do I'm guessing that Endnote is probably what you want. It also > looks like X7 version has cloud sharing too so you can store your entire > library in the cloud and access it anywhere and even share it with up to 12 > people! Mike, since you are a man on the move, I think you could really > take advantage of that... > > -greg > > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:30 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues - In working through a recent review paper, I began to >> experience severe difficulties in keeping track of pdfs in connection with >> the refs. Are there any recommendations among you for a reliable, pretty >> large (able to take several thousand refs/pdfs) >> utility that a non-adept could use effectively? I imagine others might >> have >> a similar question.... or will have soon enough! >> >> Thanks for any help on this. >> >> mike >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >> object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Jan 29 09:06:38 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 17:06:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <974007D9-7E6B-468C-89DB-FCA6E88832CF@uniandes.edu.co> Simply that BookEnds is much better! I used EndNotes for years, and it was clunky and its developers upgraded it very slowly. Perhaps it has now improved... BooksEnds is very stable, it handles over 11,000 references quickly, it can insert citations into a text with a single key-press, it's possible to read and annotate a pdf, and create notes, all within the program. It automatically finds citation data from Google Scholar and elsewhere. One can add tags and create groups easily. And, as I said, it will generate bibliographies virtually instantaneously in APA and many other formats. However, Greg, do you know of anything that would build a semantic network? BookEnds creates a tag cloud from selected references, which one can then dig down into. But that's not quite what I'm looking for. Martin On Jan 29, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Oh, and all three of the ones I mentioned have the ability to easily > cite-while-you-write and to automatically create bibliographies. > > Martin, do you have any thoughts for why BookEnds over Endnote? > -greg > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > >> Just talking this over with my students yesterday. >> >> Endnote is probably the most common utility. Here is a link: >> http://endnote.com/product-details >> Intro and training videos for endnote can be found here: >> https://www.youtube.com/user/EndNoteTraining >> >> Mendeley has a very friendly interface for reading and marking up pdf's. >> You can store pdf's on your device or you can store them in the cloud for a >> monthly fee. >> http://www.mendeley.com/ >> >> Zotero is, I think, particularly easy to use if you are just looking for >> an easy way to cite-while-you-write (the others have this capability too), >> but you have to use Mozilla in order to use it: >> https://www.zotero.org/ >> >> There are other more stripped-down versions like Refworks, but for what >> you want to do I'm guessing that Endnote is probably what you want. It also >> looks like X7 version has cloud sharing too so you can store your entire >> library in the cloud and access it anywhere and even share it with up to 12 >> people! Mike, since you are a man on the move, I think you could really >> take advantage of that... >> >> -greg >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:30 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Dear Colleagues - In working through a recent review paper, I began to >>> experience severe difficulties in keeping track of pdfs in connection with >>> the refs. Are there any recommendations among you for a reliable, pretty >>> large (able to take several thousand refs/pdfs) >>> utility that a non-adept could use effectively? I imagine others might >>> have >>> a similar question.... or will have soon enough! >>> >>> Thanks for any help on this. >>> >>> mike >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>> object >>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jan 29 09:09:00 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 17:09:00 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <1422551340143.18440@unm.edu> I like Papers, which was developed by researchers, and it has a cool search facility that will comb search engines. I haven't updated in a while, but they seem to have a new feature for creating citations. I see the original company was bought by Springer, so now their HQ is in London rather than Amsterdam. Don't know how you all feel about Springer, but I did like the way it organizes PDFs with Papers2. http://papersapp.com/ http://papersapp.com/about/ There is a 30 day free trial period to see if you like it. And apparently you can use it with teams too. Kind regards, Annalisa From smago@uga.edu Thu Jan 29 09:44:34 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 17:44:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My university provides Endnote for free, so you might want to check your institution's site license package for what's available. p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 11:52 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases Oh, and all three of the ones I mentioned have the ability to easily cite-while-you-write and to automatically create bibliographies. Martin, do you have any thoughts for why BookEnds over Endnote? -greg On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Just talking this over with my students yesterday. > > Endnote is probably the most common utility. Here is a link: > http://endnote.com/product-details > Intro and training videos for endnote can be found here: > https://www.youtube.com/user/EndNoteTraining > > Mendeley has a very friendly interface for reading and marking up pdf's. > You can store pdf's on your device or you can store them in the cloud > for a monthly fee. > http://www.mendeley.com/ > > Zotero is, I think, particularly easy to use if you are just looking > for an easy way to cite-while-you-write (the others have this > capability too), but you have to use Mozilla in order to use it: > https://www.zotero.org/ > > There are other more stripped-down versions like Refworks, but for > what you want to do I'm guessing that Endnote is probably what you > want. It also looks like X7 version has cloud sharing too so you can > store your entire library in the cloud and access it anywhere and even > share it with up to 12 people! Mike, since you are a man on the move, > I think you could really take advantage of that... > > -greg > > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:30 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues - In working through a recent review paper, I began >> to experience severe difficulties in keeping track of pdfs in >> connection with the refs. Are there any recommendations among you >> for a reliable, pretty large (able to take several thousand >> refs/pdfs) utility that a non-adept could use effectively? I imagine >> others might have a similar question.... or will have soon enough! >> >> Thanks for any help on this. >> >> mike >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Thu Jan 29 09:59:55 2015 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (rjsp2) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 17:59:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54CA751B.1070907@open.ac.uk> Scrivener might do the job. I have played with it a little - you get a good sized free trial period. There is, in my view, an interesting gap in the market here. A lot of these issues could be overcome with a good internal tagging system such as that used on web based facilities like Diigo, and blog software. For some reason Windows does not seem to lend itself to tagging. MS seem to have no interest in developing it, and third party offerings like XY Explorer, are quite clunky. Rob On 29/01/2015 17:44, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > My university provides Endnote for free, so you might want to check your institution's site license package for what's available. p > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 11:52 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases > > Oh, and all three of the ones I mentioned have the ability to easily cite-while-you-write and to automatically create bibliographies. > > Martin, do you have any thoughts for why BookEnds over Endnote? > -greg > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > >> Just talking this over with my students yesterday. >> >> Endnote is probably the most common utility. Here is a link: >> http://endnote.com/product-details >> Intro and training videos for endnote can be found here: >> https://www.youtube.com/user/EndNoteTraining >> >> Mendeley has a very friendly interface for reading and marking up pdf's. >> You can store pdf's on your device or you can store them in the cloud >> for a monthly fee. >> http://www.mendeley.com/ >> >> Zotero is, I think, particularly easy to use if you are just looking >> for an easy way to cite-while-you-write (the others have this >> capability too), but you have to use Mozilla in order to use it: >> https://www.zotero.org/ >> >> There are other more stripped-down versions like Refworks, but for >> what you want to do I'm guessing that Endnote is probably what you >> want. It also looks like X7 version has cloud sharing too so you can >> store your entire library in the cloud and access it anywhere and even >> share it with up to 12 people! Mike, since you are a man on the move, >> I think you could really take advantage of that... >> >> -greg >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:30 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Dear Colleagues - In working through a recent review paper, I began >>> to experience severe difficulties in keeping track of pdfs in >>> connection with the refs. Are there any recommendations among you >>> for a reliable, pretty large (able to take several thousand >>> refs/pdfs) utility that a non-adept could use effectively? I imagine >>> others might have a similar question.... or will have soon enough! >>> >>> Thanks for any help on this. >>> >>> mike >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Jan 29 10:37:08 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 11:37:08 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: <974007D9-7E6B-468C-89DB-FCA6E88832CF@uniandes.edu.co> References: <974007D9-7E6B-468C-89DB-FCA6E88832CF@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Martin, I have a colleague that uses NVivo to keep a database of references. You lose the citation capabilities but gain a lot of capacity to analyze relations between documents. I doubt that would accomplish what you need but it is an interesting solution to the problem that you describe (and it suggests that there is indeed a need for something that is a hybrid of a CAQDAS program like NVivo and a citation manager like Endnote/BookEnds). So, no I don't know of any good solutions. I'll ask around and see if anything comes up. -greg On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Martin John Packer < mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > Simply that BookEnds is much better! I used EndNotes for years, and it > was clunky and its developers upgraded it very slowly. Perhaps it has now > improved... BooksEnds is very stable, it handles over 11,000 references > quickly, it can insert citations into a text with a single key-press, it's > possible to read and annotate a pdf, and create notes, all within the > program. It automatically finds citation data from Google Scholar and > elsewhere. One can add tags and create groups easily. And, as I said, it > will generate bibliographies virtually instantaneously in APA and many > other formats. > > However, Greg, do you know of anything that would build a semantic > network? BookEnds creates a tag cloud from selected references, which one > can then dig down into. But that's not quite what I'm looking for. > > Martin > > On Jan 29, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Oh, and all three of the ones I mentioned have the ability to easily > > cite-while-you-write and to automatically create bibliographies. > > > > Martin, do you have any thoughts for why BookEnds over Endnote? > > -greg > > > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> Just talking this over with my students yesterday. > >> > >> Endnote is probably the most common utility. Here is a link: > >> http://endnote.com/product-details > >> Intro and training videos for endnote can be found here: > >> https://www.youtube.com/user/EndNoteTraining > >> > >> Mendeley has a very friendly interface for reading and marking up pdf's. > >> You can store pdf's on your device or you can store them in the cloud > for a > >> monthly fee. > >> http://www.mendeley.com/ > >> > >> Zotero is, I think, particularly easy to use if you are just looking for > >> an easy way to cite-while-you-write (the others have this capability > too), > >> but you have to use Mozilla in order to use it: > >> https://www.zotero.org/ > >> > >> There are other more stripped-down versions like Refworks, but for what > >> you want to do I'm guessing that Endnote is probably what you want. It > also > >> looks like X7 version has cloud sharing too so you can store your entire > >> library in the cloud and access it anywhere and even share it with up > to 12 > >> people! Mike, since you are a man on the move, I think you could really > >> take advantage of that... > >> > >> -greg > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:30 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> > >>> Dear Colleagues - In working through a recent review paper, I began > to > >>> experience severe difficulties in keeping track of pdfs in connection > with > >>> the refs. Are there any recommendations among you for a reliable, > pretty > >>> large (able to take several thousand refs/pdfs) > >>> utility that a non-adept could use effectively? I imagine others might > >>> have > >>> a similar question.... or will have soon enough! > >>> > >>> Thanks for any help on this. > >>> > >>> mike > >>> > >>> -- > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > >>> object > >>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >> Assistant Professor > >> Department of Anthropology > >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >> Brigham Young University > >> Provo, UT 84602 > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Thu Jan 29 13:11:37 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 15:11:37 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback In-Reply-To: References: , <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu>, , , Message-ID: Message from Francine: Thank you Michael!!!!!!!! > From: mcole@ucsd.edu > Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 08:47:09 -0800 > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback > > ?Among the important issues in this note from Francine is the importance of > the work of D.B. > Elkonin to MCA, especially given the widespread interest in play and > imagination. > > I have now recovered Elkonin's book on play, which appeared in English in > 2005. I attach here > only the editor's preface and first chapter, uncertain as to interest in > the group. > > mike > > ? > > On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 9:37 AM, larry smolucha > wrote: > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > > Dear Peter and XMCA colleagues, > > > > I must respectively disagree with the Peter's argument that understanding > > Vygotsky's writings (akin to interpreting them) has to be left to elite > > Vygotsky translators (like Van de Veer). I prefer an approach that views > > Vygotsky for Everyman (and Woman). An analogy can be found with the way > > anybody can find inspirational quotes from any great literature such as > > the Bible > > or the U.S. Constitution/Declaration of Independence. Of course there are > > those Biblical scholars, and scholars of Constitutional Law, who would > > look down > > their noses at the common man's understanding of passages from these works. > > It comes down to the difference between analysis and inspiration. > > > > My pioneering translations of Vygotsky's three papers on the development of > > imagination and creativity were done in the 1980's on my own. I was a > > graduate > > student and community college professor (low status in academia). My > > interpretations > > stand on their own and are still viable today. For the record, I have > > found that > > the interpretations of Vygotsky advanced by Van de Veer, Valsinar, > > Wertsch, Daniels, > > (and yes even Michael Cole) have been shaped by Leontiev's Activity > > Theory and the > > Soviet era Russian psychologists like Vladimir Zinchenko. There are a > > couple > > Russian psychologists who have concurred with my assessment - Elena > > Budrova told > > me that my understanding was consistent with the El'konin approach to > > Vygotsky. > > [I have also read El'konin's Psychology of Play in Russian - there is no > > published English translation] The El'Konin approach was suppressed in the > > Soviet Union by the establishment psychologists of Activity Theory. Also, > > Tatiana Akhutina and I found we shared an understanding of Vygotsky based > > on our shared appreciation of Luria's work on the > > prefrontal cortex. > > > > I do agree with Peter in that scholarly works based on a Vygotskian > > approach need > > to have citations, and a bibliography from several of Vygotsky's works > > (even better > > citing Russian publications of Vygotsky's works.) This further establishes > > the scholarly > > authority of the interpretation. Merely citing passages from Mind in > > Society is no longer > > adequate. > > > > > > > > > From: smago@uga.edu > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:34:40 +0000 > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback > > > > > > Annalisa, my apologies for recycling things I've already written. > > Perhaps the following helps with your question. From Smagorinsky, P. > > (2011). Vygotsky and literacy research: A methodological framework. Boston: > > Sense. Pp. 4-6 > > > > > > Problems in Translation > > > Reading extensively in Vygotskian scholarship seems critical to > > referencing him knowledgeably, given the challenges that Vygotsky's writing > > presents to the 21st Century reader. Among these challenges is the problem > > that most of his readers, particularly in North America, encounter him > > through translation. In Daniels, Cole, and Wertsch's (2007) collection of > > international papers outlining a Vygotskian perspective, a number of the > > contributors are fluent speakers of Russian. However, even those whom I > > consider to be conversant with Vygotsky's original writing-those whose > > publications are rife with references to works of Vygotsky that are only > > available in Russian-are cautious about their grasp of both the language > > and the concepts. > > > Michael Cole, who has spoken Russian for many decades, who lived > > in the for-mer Soviet Union during his internship with A. R. Luria, who > > served as co-editor and co-translator of Mind in Society (Vygotsky, 1978), > > whose leadership in the Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition has > > helped to shape worldwide extensions of Russian psychology, who was the > > founding editor of the journal Mind, Culture, and Activity, and who has > > produced a number of foundational works in the Vygotskian tradition, wrote > > in response to my inquiry that "I have been writing jointly with [Russian > > Natalia Gajdamaschko] precisely because I feel so strongly the need for > > more than simple translation help in dealing with the meta-psychology and > > national ethos that is the relevant context for understanding the local > > words" (M. Cole, personal communication). James Wertsch, who has spent > > considerable time in the Soviet Union, Russia, and many former Soviet > > states where Russian remains the lingua franca, and who has translated > > Vygotsky into English (e.g., Wertsch, 1981), also backs off from claims > > that his knowledge of Russian could be termed fluent (J. Wertsch, personal > > communication). > > > As someone whose only linkage to Vygotsky's Byelorussian roots > > comes through my grandparents' origins in Vygotsky's hometown of Gomel, I > > read the qualifiers by Cole and Wertsch as cautions regarding any claims to > > understanding Vygotsky for those of us who speak no Russian at all. I rely > > on the translations of others, including those who express limited > > confidence in their own fluency. Most North American readers face this same > > problem, and so the challenges of reading a major thinker only in > > translation-especially translation that spans alphabets, cultures, > > concepts, and other formidable barriers-are thus worth reviewing here. > > > At present there are abundant Vygotskian texts available to the > > English lan-guage reader: six volumes of collected works in publication, > > additional books from his oeuvre available (e.g., Vygotsky, 1971, 1997; > > Vygotsky & Luria, 1993), key texts subjected to multiple translations, and > > a major project now underway in Russia to make his entire output available > > to English-speaking readers. Yet Vygotsky remains a complex figure and > > difficult scholar to grasp, and for a variety of reasons. In his > > "Translator's Foreword and Acknowledgements" to The Collected Works, Volume > > 3, Van der Veer says, "I have not attempted to improve Vygotsky's style of > > writing although it was at times difficult to refrain from doing so. It is > > clear that Vygotsky . . . never rewrote a text for the sake of improving > > its style and readability. Hence the redundancy, the difficulty to follow > > the thread of his argument, the awkward sentences, etc." (p. v). > > > Meshcheryakov (2007) notes that Vygotsky produced 190 works within > > the ten-year span that comprised his career, many of which "were written > > very quickly, in almost telegraphic style. Some works remain unfinished. It > > is certainly possible that some of the works that were published > > posthumously were not yet intended for publication" (p. 155). Daniels et > > al. (2007) assert that "It is difficult to reconcile some of the writing > > from the early 1920s with that which was produced during the last 2 years > > of his life. These rapid changes, coupled with the fact that his work was > > not published in chronological order, make synthetic summaries of his work > > difficult" (p. 2). So in addition to the difficulty of the ideas Vygotsky > > produced, his rendering of them into text made for challenging reading, no > > matter how well-prepared the reader is. > > > Even those with extraordinary fluency in Vygotsky's work typically > > consult others to help with their understanding. Van der Veer, a native of > > the Netherlands, relates in his translator's introduction to the Collected > > Works, Volume 3 that "After I had translated the whole volume [from Russian > > to English], I carefully checked my translation against the German and > > Spanish translations of the same volume" (1997, p. v). With five languages > > at play in his effort to translate Vygotsky's al-ready-difficult prose and > > concepts (German, Spanish, Russian, English, and Dutch), Van der Veer > > further enlisted feedback from a host of colleagues (mostly European) in > > order to amend Vygotsky's "sloppy" approach to citation by includ-ing > > appropriate references and footnotes to provide depth, detail, and > > clarification to the text. > > > Van der Veer's (1997) meticulous approach to rendering Vygotsky > > into English suggests one key lesson to be learned from reading Vygotsky > > with any insight: that claims to understanding or implementing ideas must > > be undertaken with care and caution. I refer again to Van der Veer's work > > in underscoring the importance of reading more than just excerpts (or > > summaries of excerpts, or summaries of those summaries in textbooks) from > > Mind in Society in claiming a Vygotskian perspec-tive. In his review of an > > Italian translation of Thinking and Speech that post-dates any version of > > the text available in English, Van der Veer makes the remarkable point that > > > Unfortunately, neither in English nor in any other language has a > > reliable repub-lication of Thought and Language been available. Leaving > > aside the questions that can be raised concerning the original Soviet 1934 > > edition (Vygotsky did not see the book in print and the editor, > > Kolbanovsky, changed some of the wordings to make the book more palatable > > for the ideological leaders), we know that the later 1956 and 1982 Soviet > > editions were marred by many mistakes and plain falsifications. All of the > > existing translations into English, or any other language, took these > > unreliable later editions as their point of departure. As a result, readers > > unable to read Russian or find a copy of the original 1934 edition have > > had, until now, no authoritative text of Thought and Language available. > > (p. 83; cf. van der Veer, 1987, for a critical review of Kozulin's 1986 > > translation of Thought and Language, which to van der Veer is more properly > > translated as Thinking and Speech) > > > I am impressed that Van der Veer is now sufficiently fluent in at > > least six lan-guages to read Vygotsky and then make this judgment; I am > > alarmed that he nonetheless states that "Vygotsky obviously preferred > > principled opponents, such as Pavlov, who made their own original > > contribution to science and invented their own scientific vocabulary to > > mediocre university professors, such as the present writer, who can only > > summarize what others have discovered" (2007, p. 37). If I'm not > > sufficiently daunted to learn that Van der Veer regards himself as a > > relative mediocrity, I cringe yet further when I realize that even though > > I've been referencing Vygotsky in my own work since the early 1990s, I > > probably am basing my understanding on inaccurate and incomplete > > translations. It becomes important, then, for me and no doubt others to > > engage with the work of Vygotskian scholars who have read his Russian texts > > in order to develop a clearer grasp of the ideas that I believe I am > > drawing on. > > > If problems of direct translation of Vygotsky's work were not > > enough of a chal-lenge, the fact that he did not necessarily pen his own > > texts presents another. His magnum opus, Thinking and Speech, was published > > in 1934, the year he died; he dictated sections from his sickbed, no doubt > > contributing to the text's notorious difficulty (Zinchenko, 2007). Further, > > some of what is published under his name is taken from his student's > > lecture notes or other stenographic records, undoubtedly with gaps in > > transcription and reformulation in expression (e.g., a set of lectures > > included in the Collected Works, Volume 5: "The Crisis of the First Year," > > "Early Childhood," "The Crisis at Age Three," "The Crisis at Age Seven"; > > Vygotsky, 1998b). Making definitive claims, as do Gredler and Shields > > (2004), regarding what Vygotsky did and did not say, is thus a precarious > > undertaking that even the most reputable U. S. Vygotskian scholars should > > attempt with considerable caution and temperance. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > > > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2015 5:26 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback > > > > > > Wow! > > > > > > This book looks really cool! Thanks for bringing it to listserv > > consciousness, Peter! > > > > > > I did not know that Vygotsky was notoriously indifferent to his reader's > > sensibilities. I do not know what that means? > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/lev-vygotsky-9781472504920/ > > > > > > > > > 12-18-2014 > > > ? > > > About Lev Vygotsky > > > > > > Lev Vygotsky, the great Russian psychologist, had a profound influence > > on educational thought. His work on the perception of art, > > cultural-historical theory of the mind and the zone of proximal development > > all had an impact on modern education. > > > > > > This text provides a succinct critical account of Vygotsky's life and > > work against the background of the political events and social turmoil of > > that time and analyses his cross-cultural research and the application of > > his ideas to contemporary education. Ren? van der Veer offers his own > > interpretation of Vygotsky as both the man and anti-man of educational > > philosophy, concluding that the strength of Vygotsky's legacy lies in its > > unfinished, open nature. > > > > > > Table Of Contents > > > > > > Foreword > > > Series Editor's Preface > > > Preface > > > > > > Introduction > > > > > > Part I: Intellectual Biography > > > 1. Lev Vygotsky > > > > > > Part II: Critical Exposition of Vygotsky's Work 2. Early Writings 3. > > Creating Cultural-historical Theory 4. The Zone of Proximal Development 5. > > Cross-cultural Education > > > > > > Part III: The Reception, Influence and Relevance of Vygotsky's Work > > Today 6. Contemporary Educational Research 7. Conclusions > > > > > > Bibliography > > > Name Index > > > Subject Index > > > > > > Reviews > > > > > > "In this concise intellectual biography of L. S. Vygotsky, eminent > > Vygotskian authority Ren? van der Veer has written an accessible account of > > the major periods of Vygotsky's career, reviewing the development of > > Vygotsky's thinking in plain and often witty language, a service of > > immeasurable importance, given Vygotsky's notorious indifference to his > > readers' sensibilities... This volume is straightforward and edifying > > enough for undergraduates, and stimulating and informative enough for those > > who have been immersed in Vygotskian scholarship for many decades." - > > Peter Smagorinsky, The University of Georgia, USA, > > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jan 29 14:42:10 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 22:42:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback In-Reply-To: References: <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu>, <1422401645485.14058@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1422571330358.2180@unm.edu> Hi Peter, Thanks for your thoughtful reply! See, it's like this: I fear that using the phrase "indifference to the reader's sensibilities" would be like criticizing the (long dead) authors of the Ancient World for writing their texts on papyrus and how this material lit up in the burning of Alexandria's library. In other words, I think it's more the environment to blame, even Physics! than the author, if there is blame to lay down about indifference! :) Of course I didn't mean to propose mind reading, but I was just thinking of the many possibilities that may have the same identical result as what you have deemed as indifference. You are on to something about guessing motives that they are possibly not safe to entertain, and that we should focus on the facts, which are that we are all of us frustrated in one way or another to read Vygotsky, and perhaps we feel fear that he is indifferent to us? I'm not sure if that is a more reasonable assessment, but it seems more accurate? I am very very intrigued by the arresting image of a writer smoking his work away when you describe Bakhtin. There is a strange inversion of metaphors here! of eating one's words by inhaling and smoking them, which is even more ironic that this story is about Bakhtin of all people who conceived of an utterance that extended in time beyond the life of the utterer. (Is this a WORD? utterer?) Thanks for sharing those stories. There is also an interesting parallel here I'm drawing about Irene N?mirovsky in terms of guessing motives of the writer. She was attempting to write in Nazi-occupied France and some how she managed to do it as long as she lived. She is quoted here (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/26/books/26nemirovsky.html) as saying, ?I?m working on burning lava.? I don't think I can consider what it would be like to write on lava, burning or otherwise! Still I think your observation about paper scraps was a real fact of the war! Even Alice Kober had this challenge when she was working to crack Linear B. I cannot imagine what it would be like not to have paper to write upon when I wanted to write upon it. But when I sit here and consider when is the last time I used paper to write upon, it was a Post It note for my grocery list. Other than that it's been configuring pixels! Kind regards, Annalisa From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Jan 29 17:31:50 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 01:31:50 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: <974007D9-7E6B-468C-89DB-FCA6E88832CF@uniandes.edu.co> References: <974007D9-7E6B-468C-89DB-FCA6E88832CF@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Martin, If you have something specific in mind and you're able to pool a large source of (presumably frustrated) donors, then I could write/produce it for you all. Part of the issue, as I see it, is that everything is related to everything else. So the issue becomes how things are related not that they are related. On a similar theme I am thinking of starting up an educational news website, because there is so much trash around and so much bureaucracy in and around traditional education. Huw On 29 January 2015 at 17:06, Martin John Packer wrote: > Simply that BookEnds is much better! I used EndNotes for years, and it > was clunky and its developers upgraded it very slowly. Perhaps it has now > improved... BooksEnds is very stable, it handles over 11,000 references > quickly, it can insert citations into a text with a single key-press, it's > possible to read and annotate a pdf, and create notes, all within the > program. It automatically finds citation data from Google Scholar and > elsewhere. One can add tags and create groups easily. And, as I said, it > will generate bibliographies virtually instantaneously in APA and many > other formats. > > However, Greg, do you know of anything that would build a semantic > network? BookEnds creates a tag cloud from selected references, which one > can then dig down into. But that's not quite what I'm looking for. > > Martin > > On Jan 29, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Oh, and all three of the ones I mentioned have the ability to easily > > cite-while-you-write and to automatically create bibliographies. > > > > Martin, do you have any thoughts for why BookEnds over Endnote? > > -greg > > > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> Just talking this over with my students yesterday. > >> > >> Endnote is probably the most common utility. Here is a link: > >> http://endnote.com/product-details > >> Intro and training videos for endnote can be found here: > >> https://www.youtube.com/user/EndNoteTraining > >> > >> Mendeley has a very friendly interface for reading and marking up pdf's. > >> You can store pdf's on your device or you can store them in the cloud > for a > >> monthly fee. > >> http://www.mendeley.com/ > >> > >> Zotero is, I think, particularly easy to use if you are just looking for > >> an easy way to cite-while-you-write (the others have this capability > too), > >> but you have to use Mozilla in order to use it: > >> https://www.zotero.org/ > >> > >> There are other more stripped-down versions like Refworks, but for what > >> you want to do I'm guessing that Endnote is probably what you want. It > also > >> looks like X7 version has cloud sharing too so you can store your entire > >> library in the cloud and access it anywhere and even share it with up > to 12 > >> people! Mike, since you are a man on the move, I think you could really > >> take advantage of that... > >> > >> -greg > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:30 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> > >>> Dear Colleagues - In working through a recent review paper, I began > to > >>> experience severe difficulties in keeping track of pdfs in connection > with > >>> the refs. Are there any recommendations among you for a reliable, > pretty > >>> large (able to take several thousand refs/pdfs) > >>> utility that a non-adept could use effectively? I imagine others might > >>> have > >>> a similar question.... or will have soon enough! > >>> > >>> Thanks for any help on this. > >>> > >>> mike > >>> > >>> -- > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > >>> object > >>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >> Assistant Professor > >> Department of Anthropology > >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >> Brigham Young University > >> Provo, UT 84602 > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jan 29 17:53:30 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 17:53:30 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: References: <974007D9-7E6B-468C-89DB-FCA6E88832CF@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Go for it, Huw! Set up one of those start-up sites and see what you can raise. When you become part of the 1% do we get a %? :-)))) mike On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Martin, > > If you have something specific in mind and you're able to pool a large > source of (presumably frustrated) donors, then I could write/produce it for > you all. Part of the issue, as I see it, is that everything is related to > everything else. So the issue becomes how things are related not that they > are related. On a similar theme I am thinking of starting up an > educational news website, because there is so much trash around and so > much bureaucracy in and around traditional education. > > Huw > > On 29 January 2015 at 17:06, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > > Simply that BookEnds is much better! I used EndNotes for years, and it > > was clunky and its developers upgraded it very slowly. Perhaps it has now > > improved... BooksEnds is very stable, it handles over 11,000 references > > quickly, it can insert citations into a text with a single key-press, > it's > > possible to read and annotate a pdf, and create notes, all within the > > program. It automatically finds citation data from Google Scholar and > > elsewhere. One can add tags and create groups easily. And, as I said, it > > will generate bibliographies virtually instantaneously in APA and many > > other formats. > > > > However, Greg, do you know of anything that would build a semantic > > network? BookEnds creates a tag cloud from selected references, which one > > can then dig down into. But that's not quite what I'm looking for. > > > > Martin > > > > On Jan 29, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > > > > Oh, and all three of the ones I mentioned have the ability to easily > > > cite-while-you-write and to automatically create bibliographies. > > > > > > Martin, do you have any thoughts for why BookEnds over Endnote? > > > -greg > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Just talking this over with my students yesterday. > > >> > > >> Endnote is probably the most common utility. Here is a link: > > >> http://endnote.com/product-details > > >> Intro and training videos for endnote can be found here: > > >> https://www.youtube.com/user/EndNoteTraining > > >> > > >> Mendeley has a very friendly interface for reading and marking up > pdf's. > > >> You can store pdf's on your device or you can store them in the cloud > > for a > > >> monthly fee. > > >> http://www.mendeley.com/ > > >> > > >> Zotero is, I think, particularly easy to use if you are just looking > for > > >> an easy way to cite-while-you-write (the others have this capability > > too), > > >> but you have to use Mozilla in order to use it: > > >> https://www.zotero.org/ > > >> > > >> There are other more stripped-down versions like Refworks, but for > what > > >> you want to do I'm guessing that Endnote is probably what you want. It > > also > > >> looks like X7 version has cloud sharing too so you can store your > entire > > >> library in the cloud and access it anywhere and even share it with up > > to 12 > > >> people! Mike, since you are a man on the move, I think you could > really > > >> take advantage of that... > > >> > > >> -greg > > >> > > >> > > >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:30 AM, mike cole wrote: > > >> > > >>> Dear Colleagues - In working through a recent review paper, I began > > to > > >>> experience severe difficulties in keeping track of pdfs in connection > > with > > >>> the refs. Are there any recommendations among you for a reliable, > > pretty > > >>> large (able to take several thousand refs/pdfs) > > >>> utility that a non-adept could use effectively? I imagine others > might > > >>> have > > >>> a similar question.... or will have soon enough! > > >>> > > >>> Thanks for any help on this. > > >>> > > >>> mike > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > > >>> object > > >>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > >> Assistant Professor > > >> Department of Anthropology > > >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > >> Brigham Young University > > >> Provo, UT 84602 > > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Jan 29 18:25:15 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 02:25:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: References: <974007D9-7E6B-468C-89DB-FCA6E88832CF@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: This is exactly the problem Huw! On Jan 29, 2015, at 8:53 PM, mike cole wrote: >> everything is related to >> everything else. From miyasan@waseda.jp Thu Jan 29 18:39:53 2015 From: miyasan@waseda.jp (miyazaki kiyotaka) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 11:39:53 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Naoki Ueno passed away Message-ID: <9BE72742-050F-4FD1-A41F-92CC6FB9472A@waseda.jp> Dear All xMCAers, We have regrettably inform you that Naoki Ueno, one of the most active and influential researchers in Japanese activity theory, has passed away on 27th January because of pancreas cancer. As we in Japan didn?t have any information on his health problem, the news was a big surprise for us. He had been the militant critique of the cognitivism since his graduate student days. It was after his return from sabbatical stay at LCHC in 1989, however, that his work became very productive and influential in Japan. He introduced the ideas of situated approach to Japan, and shocked us. He has remained at the front of the activity theory research and stimulating us not only in Japan but also internationally until his young death at 64. As he has many friends and comrades internationally, we tell all of you this sad news in xmca network. Kiyotaka Miyazaki Waseda University, Japan. From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jan 29 19:55:33 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 19:55:33 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: References: <974007D9-7E6B-468C-89DB-FCA6E88832CF@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Enter Entrepreneurs, ? Mike On Thursday, January 29, 2015, Martin John Packer wrote: > This is exactly the problem Huw! > > On Jan 29, 2015, at 8:53 PM, mike cole > > wrote: > > >> everything is related to > >> everything else. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Jan 30 03:32:44 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 11:32:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: References: <974007D9-7E6B-468C-89DB-FCA6E88832CF@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: On 30 January 2015 at 01:53, mike cole wrote: > Go for it, Huw! Set up one of those start-up sites and see what you can > raise. When you become part of the 1% do we get a %? :-)))) > > With some of both the world's top 1% cultural psychologists and the world's top 1% programmers for acquaintances, what could possibly go wrong? Huw > mike > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > Martin, > > > > If you have something specific in mind and you're able to pool a large > > source of (presumably frustrated) donors, then I could write/produce it > for > > you all. Part of the issue, as I see it, is that everything is related > to > > everything else. So the issue becomes how things are related not that > they > > are related. On a similar theme I am thinking of starting up an > > educational news website, because there is so much trash around and so > > much bureaucracy in and around traditional education. > > > > Huw > > > > On 29 January 2015 at 17:06, Martin John Packer > > > wrote: > > > > > Simply that BookEnds is much better! I used EndNotes for years, and it > > > was clunky and its developers upgraded it very slowly. Perhaps it has > now > > > improved... BooksEnds is very stable, it handles over 11,000 > references > > > quickly, it can insert citations into a text with a single key-press, > > it's > > > possible to read and annotate a pdf, and create notes, all within the > > > program. It automatically finds citation data from Google Scholar and > > > elsewhere. One can add tags and create groups easily. And, as I said, > it > > > will generate bibliographies virtually instantaneously in APA and many > > > other formats. > > > > > > However, Greg, do you know of anything that would build a semantic > > > network? BookEnds creates a tag cloud from selected references, which > one > > > can then dig down into. But that's not quite what I'm looking for. > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > On Jan 29, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Greg Thompson > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Oh, and all three of the ones I mentioned have the ability to easily > > > > cite-while-you-write and to automatically create bibliographies. > > > > > > > > Martin, do you have any thoughts for why BookEnds over Endnote? > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson < > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Just talking this over with my students yesterday. > > > >> > > > >> Endnote is probably the most common utility. Here is a link: > > > >> http://endnote.com/product-details > > > >> Intro and training videos for endnote can be found here: > > > >> https://www.youtube.com/user/EndNoteTraining > > > >> > > > >> Mendeley has a very friendly interface for reading and marking up > > pdf's. > > > >> You can store pdf's on your device or you can store them in the > cloud > > > for a > > > >> monthly fee. > > > >> http://www.mendeley.com/ > > > >> > > > >> Zotero is, I think, particularly easy to use if you are just looking > > for > > > >> an easy way to cite-while-you-write (the others have this capability > > > too), > > > >> but you have to use Mozilla in order to use it: > > > >> https://www.zotero.org/ > > > >> > > > >> There are other more stripped-down versions like Refworks, but for > > what > > > >> you want to do I'm guessing that Endnote is probably what you want. > It > > > also > > > >> looks like X7 version has cloud sharing too so you can store your > > entire > > > >> library in the cloud and access it anywhere and even share it with > up > > > to 12 > > > >> people! Mike, since you are a man on the move, I think you could > > really > > > >> take advantage of that... > > > >> > > > >> -greg > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:30 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Dear Colleagues - In working through a recent review paper, I > began > > > to > > > >>> experience severe difficulties in keeping track of pdfs in > connection > > > with > > > >>> the refs. Are there any recommendations among you for a reliable, > > > pretty > > > >>> large (able to take several thousand refs/pdfs) > > > >>> utility that a non-adept could use effectively? I imagine others > > might > > > >>> have > > > >>> a similar question.... or will have soon enough! > > > >>> > > > >>> Thanks for any help on this. > > > >>> > > > >>> mike > > > >>> > > > >>> -- > > > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as > an > > > >>> object > > > >>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > >> Assistant Professor > > > >> Department of Anthropology > > > >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > >> Brigham Young University > > > >> Provo, UT 84602 > > > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Jan 30 04:23:59 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 12:23:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: References: <974007D9-7E6B-468C-89DB-FCA6E88832CF@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Huw, Take a look at Docear, which is a combination reference manager and mind-mapper. I can never get it to work, but it's one model. Martin On Jan 30, 2015, at 6:32 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > On 30 January 2015 at 01:53, mike cole wrote: > >> Go for it, Huw! Set up one of those start-up sites and see what you can >> raise. When you become part of the 1% do we get a %? :-)))) >> >> > With some of both the world's top 1% cultural psychologists and the world's > top 1% programmers for acquaintances, what could possibly go wrong? > > Huw > > > >> mike >> >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >>> Martin, >>> >>> If you have something specific in mind and you're able to pool a large >>> source of (presumably frustrated) donors, then I could write/produce it >> for >>> you all. Part of the issue, as I see it, is that everything is related >> to >>> everything else. So the issue becomes how things are related not that >> they >>> are related. On a similar theme I am thinking of starting up an >>> educational news website, because there is so much trash around and so >>> much bureaucracy in and around traditional education. >>> >>> Huw >>> >>> On 29 January 2015 at 17:06, Martin John Packer >> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Simply that BookEnds is much better! I used EndNotes for years, and it >>>> was clunky and its developers upgraded it very slowly. Perhaps it has >> now >>>> improved... BooksEnds is very stable, it handles over 11,000 >> references >>>> quickly, it can insert citations into a text with a single key-press, >>> it's >>>> possible to read and annotate a pdf, and create notes, all within the >>>> program. It automatically finds citation data from Google Scholar and >>>> elsewhere. One can add tags and create groups easily. And, as I said, >> it >>>> will generate bibliographies virtually instantaneously in APA and many >>>> other formats. >>>> >>>> However, Greg, do you know of anything that would build a semantic >>>> network? BookEnds creates a tag cloud from selected references, which >> one >>>> can then dig down into. But that's not quite what I'm looking for. >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On Jan 29, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Greg Thompson >> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Oh, and all three of the ones I mentioned have the ability to easily >>>>> cite-while-you-write and to automatically create bibliographies. >>>>> >>>>> Martin, do you have any thoughts for why BookEnds over Endnote? >>>>> -greg >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson < >>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Just talking this over with my students yesterday. >>>>>> >>>>>> Endnote is probably the most common utility. Here is a link: >>>>>> http://endnote.com/product-details >>>>>> Intro and training videos for endnote can be found here: >>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/user/EndNoteTraining >>>>>> >>>>>> Mendeley has a very friendly interface for reading and marking up >>> pdf's. >>>>>> You can store pdf's on your device or you can store them in the >> cloud >>>> for a >>>>>> monthly fee. >>>>>> http://www.mendeley.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Zotero is, I think, particularly easy to use if you are just looking >>> for >>>>>> an easy way to cite-while-you-write (the others have this capability >>>> too), >>>>>> but you have to use Mozilla in order to use it: >>>>>> https://www.zotero.org/ >>>>>> >>>>>> There are other more stripped-down versions like Refworks, but for >>> what >>>>>> you want to do I'm guessing that Endnote is probably what you want. >> It >>>> also >>>>>> looks like X7 version has cloud sharing too so you can store your >>> entire >>>>>> library in the cloud and access it anywhere and even share it with >> up >>>> to 12 >>>>>> people! Mike, since you are a man on the move, I think you could >>> really >>>>>> take advantage of that... >>>>>> >>>>>> -greg >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:30 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Colleagues - In working through a recent review paper, I >> began >>>> to >>>>>>> experience severe difficulties in keeping track of pdfs in >> connection >>>> with >>>>>>> the refs. Are there any recommendations among you for a reliable, >>>> pretty >>>>>>> large (able to take several thousand refs/pdfs) >>>>>>> utility that a non-adept could use effectively? I imagine others >>> might >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> a similar question.... or will have soon enough! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for any help on this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as >> an >>>>>>> object >>>>>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Fri Jan 30 04:43:28 2015 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (rjsp2) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 12:43:28 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback In-Reply-To: <1422571330358.2180@unm.edu> References: <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu>, <1422401645485.14058@unm.edu>, <1422571330358.2180@unm.edu> Message-ID: <54CB7C70.4020202@open.ac.uk> I had to look up Alice Kober. Cigarettes again - somewhere there is a paper waiting to be written about the contribution of tobacco paper and packets to academic endeavour. This BBC article is a good summary of the story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22782620 In my youth I was well aware of both Ventris and his Cambridge collaborator Chadwick. Needless to say the intrusion of a woman into their research efforts was never mentioned, despite Ventris properly acknowledging her contribution. One of Chadwick's key contributions to the decipherment was the introduction of cryptological methods honed at Bletchley during the second world war. He was one of many Cambridtge dons who found their way there. I was taught by several of them in the seventies, including briefly Chadwick, whose teaching skills, sadly, did not match his research abilities. (The same could be said of many Cambridge dons, unfortunately.) Rob On 29/01/2015 22:42, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Alice Kober -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Jan 30 05:15:02 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 13:15:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Naoki Ueno passed away In-Reply-To: <9BE72742-050F-4FD1-A41F-92CC6FB9472A@waseda.jp> References: <9BE72742-050F-4FD1-A41F-92CC6FB9472A@waseda.jp> Message-ID: Thank you, Miyazaki, for reporting this. It seems that whenever I am writing something lighthearted, I hear news of someone trying to do good things dying. Somehow we will have to be both. Huw On 30 January 2015 at 02:39, miyazaki kiyotaka wrote: > Dear All xMCAers, > > We have regrettably inform you that Naoki Ueno, one of the most active and > influential researchers in Japanese activity theory, has passed away on > 27th January because of pancreas cancer. As we in Japan didn?t have any > information on his health problem, the news was a big surprise for us. He > had been the militant critique of the cognitivism since his graduate > student days. It was after his return from sabbatical stay at LCHC in 1989, > however, that his work became very productive and influential in Japan. He > introduced the ideas of situated approach to Japan, and shocked us. He has > remained at the front of the activity theory research and stimulating us > not only in Japan but also internationally until his young death at 64. As > he has many friends and comrades internationally, we tell all of you this > sad news in xmca network. > > Kiyotaka Miyazaki > Waseda University, > Japan. > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Jan 30 07:16:47 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 15:16:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: References: <974007D9-7E6B-468C-89DB-FCA6E88832CF@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: The video suggests it permits the user to organise annotations so that they are related to each other by virtue of their shared categories (folders). Is that all that is required? On 30 January 2015 at 12:23, Martin John Packer wrote: > Huw, > > Take a look at Docear, which is a combination reference manager and > mind-mapper. I can never get it to work, but it's one model. > > Martin > > On Jan 30, 2015, at 6:32 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > On 30 January 2015 at 01:53, mike cole wrote: > > > >> Go for it, Huw! Set up one of those start-up sites and see what you can > >> raise. When you become part of the 1% do we get a %? :-)))) > >> > >> > > With some of both the world's top 1% cultural psychologists and the > world's > > top 1% programmers for acquaintances, what could possibly go wrong? > > > > Huw > > > > > > > >> mike > >> > >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Huw Lloyd > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Martin, > >>> > >>> If you have something specific in mind and you're able to pool a large > >>> source of (presumably frustrated) donors, then I could write/produce it > >> for > >>> you all. Part of the issue, as I see it, is that everything is related > >> to > >>> everything else. So the issue becomes how things are related not that > >> they > >>> are related. On a similar theme I am thinking of starting up an > >>> educational news website, because there is so much trash around and so > >>> much bureaucracy in and around traditional education. > >>> > >>> Huw > >>> > >>> On 29 January 2015 at 17:06, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >>> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Simply that BookEnds is much better! I used EndNotes for years, and > it > >>>> was clunky and its developers upgraded it very slowly. Perhaps it has > >> now > >>>> improved... BooksEnds is very stable, it handles over 11,000 > >> references > >>>> quickly, it can insert citations into a text with a single key-press, > >>> it's > >>>> possible to read and annotate a pdf, and create notes, all within the > >>>> program. It automatically finds citation data from Google Scholar and > >>>> elsewhere. One can add tags and create groups easily. And, as I said, > >> it > >>>> will generate bibliographies virtually instantaneously in APA and many > >>>> other formats. > >>>> > >>>> However, Greg, do you know of anything that would build a semantic > >>>> network? BookEnds creates a tag cloud from selected references, which > >> one > >>>> can then dig down into. But that's not quite what I'm looking for. > >>>> > >>>> Martin > >>>> > >>>> On Jan 29, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > >>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Oh, and all three of the ones I mentioned have the ability to easily > >>>>> cite-while-you-write and to automatically create bibliographies. > >>>>> > >>>>> Martin, do you have any thoughts for why BookEnds over Endnote? > >>>>> -greg > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson < > >>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Just talking this over with my students yesterday. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Endnote is probably the most common utility. Here is a link: > >>>>>> http://endnote.com/product-details > >>>>>> Intro and training videos for endnote can be found here: > >>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/user/EndNoteTraining > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mendeley has a very friendly interface for reading and marking up > >>> pdf's. > >>>>>> You can store pdf's on your device or you can store them in the > >> cloud > >>>> for a > >>>>>> monthly fee. > >>>>>> http://www.mendeley.com/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Zotero is, I think, particularly easy to use if you are just looking > >>> for > >>>>>> an easy way to cite-while-you-write (the others have this capability > >>>> too), > >>>>>> but you have to use Mozilla in order to use it: > >>>>>> https://www.zotero.org/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There are other more stripped-down versions like Refworks, but for > >>> what > >>>>>> you want to do I'm guessing that Endnote is probably what you want. > >> It > >>>> also > >>>>>> looks like X7 version has cloud sharing too so you can store your > >>> entire > >>>>>> library in the cloud and access it anywhere and even share it with > >> up > >>>> to 12 > >>>>>> people! Mike, since you are a man on the move, I think you could > >>> really > >>>>>> take advantage of that... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -greg > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:30 AM, mike cole wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Dear Colleagues - In working through a recent review paper, I > >> began > >>>> to > >>>>>>> experience severe difficulties in keeping track of pdfs in > >> connection > >>>> with > >>>>>>> the refs. Are there any recommendations among you for a reliable, > >>>> pretty > >>>>>>> large (able to take several thousand refs/pdfs) > >>>>>>> utility that a non-adept could use effectively? I imagine others > >>> might > >>>>>>> have > >>>>>>> a similar question.... or will have soon enough! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks for any help on this. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> mike > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as > >> an > >>>>>>> object > >>>>>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>>>> Assistant Professor > >>>>>> Department of Anthropology > >>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>>>> Brigham Young University > >>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>>> Assistant Professor > >>>>> Department of Anthropology > >>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>>> Brigham Young University > >>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an > object > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >> > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Jan 30 08:01:14 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 16:01:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: References: <974007D9-7E6B-468C-89DB-FCA6E88832CF@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <88F20455-F923-46EE-BD93-063F1581B548@uniandes.edu.co> Most reference managers can handle that easily with tags and/or groups. I now exactly sure what more I want, but I think it would include notes about each reference. And also meta-notes, not attached to a specific reference but to a whole net. What would other people want? Martin On Jan 30, 2015, at 10:16 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > The video suggests it permits the user to organise annotations so that they > are related to each other by virtue of their shared categories (folders). > Is that all that is required? > > On 30 January 2015 at 12:23, Martin John Packer > wrote: > >> Huw, >> >> Take a look at Docear, which is a combination reference manager and >> mind-mapper. I can never get it to work, but it's one model. >> >> Martin >> >> On Jan 30, 2015, at 6:32 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >>> On 30 January 2015 at 01:53, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> Go for it, Huw! Set up one of those start-up sites and see what you can >>>> raise. When you become part of the 1% do we get a %? :-)))) >>>> >>>> >>> With some of both the world's top 1% cultural psychologists and the >> world's >>> top 1% programmers for acquaintances, what could possibly go wrong? >>> >>> Huw >>> >>> >>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Huw Lloyd >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Martin, >>>>> >>>>> If you have something specific in mind and you're able to pool a large >>>>> source of (presumably frustrated) donors, then I could write/produce it >>>> for >>>>> you all. Part of the issue, as I see it, is that everything is related >>>> to >>>>> everything else. So the issue becomes how things are related not that >>>> they >>>>> are related. On a similar theme I am thinking of starting up an >>>>> educational news website, because there is so much trash around and so >>>>> much bureaucracy in and around traditional education. >>>>> >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> On 29 January 2015 at 17:06, Martin John Packer < >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Simply that BookEnds is much better! I used EndNotes for years, and >> it >>>>>> was clunky and its developers upgraded it very slowly. Perhaps it has >>>> now >>>>>> improved... BooksEnds is very stable, it handles over 11,000 >>>> references >>>>>> quickly, it can insert citations into a text with a single key-press, >>>>> it's >>>>>> possible to read and annotate a pdf, and create notes, all within the >>>>>> program. It automatically finds citation data from Google Scholar and >>>>>> elsewhere. One can add tags and create groups easily. And, as I said, >>>> it >>>>>> will generate bibliographies virtually instantaneously in APA and many >>>>>> other formats. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, Greg, do you know of anything that would build a semantic >>>>>> network? BookEnds creates a tag cloud from selected references, which >>>> one >>>>>> can then dig down into. But that's not quite what I'm looking for. >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jan 29, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Greg Thompson < >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh, and all three of the ones I mentioned have the ability to easily >>>>>>> cite-while-you-write and to automatically create bibliographies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin, do you have any thoughts for why BookEnds over Endnote? >>>>>>> -greg >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson < >>>>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just talking this over with my students yesterday. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Endnote is probably the most common utility. Here is a link: >>>>>>>> http://endnote.com/product-details >>>>>>>> Intro and training videos for endnote can be found here: >>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/user/EndNoteTraining >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mendeley has a very friendly interface for reading and marking up >>>>> pdf's. >>>>>>>> You can store pdf's on your device or you can store them in the >>>> cloud >>>>>> for a >>>>>>>> monthly fee. >>>>>>>> http://www.mendeley.com/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Zotero is, I think, particularly easy to use if you are just looking >>>>> for >>>>>>>> an easy way to cite-while-you-write (the others have this capability >>>>>> too), >>>>>>>> but you have to use Mozilla in order to use it: >>>>>>>> https://www.zotero.org/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are other more stripped-down versions like Refworks, but for >>>>> what >>>>>>>> you want to do I'm guessing that Endnote is probably what you want. >>>> It >>>>>> also >>>>>>>> looks like X7 version has cloud sharing too so you can store your >>>>> entire >>>>>>>> library in the cloud and access it anywhere and even share it with >>>> up >>>>>> to 12 >>>>>>>> people! Mike, since you are a man on the move, I think you could >>>>> really >>>>>>>> take advantage of that... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -greg >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:30 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear Colleagues - In working through a recent review paper, I >>>> began >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> experience severe difficulties in keeping track of pdfs in >>>> connection >>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> the refs. Are there any recommendations among you for a reliable, >>>>>> pretty >>>>>>>>> large (able to take several thousand refs/pdfs) >>>>>>>>> utility that a non-adept could use effectively? I imagine others >>>>> might >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> a similar question.... or will have soon enough! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for any help on this. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as >>>> an >>>>>>>>> object >>>>>>>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an >> object >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >> >> >> From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jan 30 08:08:34 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 08:08:34 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Naoki Ueno passed away In-Reply-To: References: <9BE72742-050F-4FD1-A41F-92CC6FB9472A@waseda.jp> Message-ID: The news of Naoki's passing is very sad, Kiyoo. He was a wonderful colleague with a great sense of humor, a marvelous intellect, and a manner of driving a car on American streets that all who were around at the time will remember. For those of you who never met, or even heard of, Naoki Ueno, put his name into the search facility at lchc.ucsd.edu and you will be able quickly to get some feeling for the times and his contributions to an earlier generation of xmca. For some idea of his earlier work, see http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Journal/f95.html :.....( mike On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Thank you, Miyazaki, for reporting this. > > It seems that whenever I am writing something lighthearted, I hear news of > someone trying to do good things dying. Somehow we will have to be both. > > Huw > > On 30 January 2015 at 02:39, miyazaki kiyotaka wrote: > > > Dear All xMCAers, > > > > We have regrettably inform you that Naoki Ueno, one of the most active > and > > influential researchers in Japanese activity theory, has passed away on > > 27th January because of pancreas cancer. As we in Japan didn?t have any > > information on his health problem, the news was a big surprise for us. He > > had been the militant critique of the cognitivism since his graduate > > student days. It was after his return from sabbatical stay at LCHC in > 1989, > > however, that his work became very productive and influential in Japan. > He > > introduced the ideas of situated approach to Japan, and shocked us. He > has > > remained at the front of the activity theory research and stimulating us > > not only in Japan but also internationally until his young death at 64. > As > > he has many friends and comrades internationally, we tell all of you this > > sad news in xmca network. > > > > Kiyotaka Miyazaki > > Waseda University, > > Japan. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jan 30 08:51:12 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 16:51:12 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback In-Reply-To: <54CB7C70.4020202@open.ac.uk> References: <1422311143825.20352@unm.edu>, <1422401645485.14058@unm.edu>, <1422571330358.2180@unm.edu>,<54CB7C70.4020202@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1422636671448.65116@unm.edu> Rob, Truth be told, on this thread suddenly I have more of a problem with this word "intrusion" than I do "indifference." Intrusion is the new "in-" word! If you were so inclined, you could read The Riddle of the Labyrinth by Margalit Fox. It's a fun read, I have mentioned the book before, I should get commissions for selling the book here. Kober gave a talk at Yale about Linear B, and came to be known as the expert, at least here in the States. Apparently Kober and Ventris had a rocky letter correspondence, but it is clear that she was willing to share. Everyone agrees were it not for her, Ventris would not have broken it. Even with help from Chadwick. So you have to wonder, if the facts show that she was a part of the party, why she was never mentioned? Oh I know, it's that way of some folks have a tendency to focus on the butter, instead of the cow, the milkmaid, and butter churn. Why, the butter just appears in little squares wrapped in foil! Remove the foil and there's the butter!!! There. I have discovered butter. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+annalisa=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of rjsp2 Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 5:43 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: now out in paperback I had to look up Alice Kober. Cigarettes again - somewhere there is a paper waiting to be written about the contribution of tobacco paper and packets to academic endeavour. This BBC article is a good summary of the story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22782620 In my youth I was well aware of both Ventris and his Cambridge collaborator Chadwick. Needless to say the intrusion of a woman into their research efforts was never mentioned, despite Ventris properly acknowledging her contribution. One of Chadwick's key contributions to the decipherment was the introduction of cryptological methods honed at Bletchley during the second world war. He was one of many Cambridtge dons who found their way there. I was taught by several of them in the seventies, including briefly Chadwick, whose teaching skills, sadly, did not match his research abilities. (The same could be said of many Cambridge dons, unfortunately.) Rob On 29/01/2015 22:42, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Alice Kober -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. From arips@optonline.net Fri Jan 30 09:24:51 2015 From: arips@optonline.net (Avram Rips) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 17:24:51 -0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Chomsky, Vygotsky, and phenomenology Message-ID: <0bkqps6dtyepkiv7getmytok.1418815961767@email.android.com> He also wasn't concerned about culture but universal grammar rules. On December 17, 2014, at 5:49 AM, Carol Macdonald wrote: Hi I do know that Chomsky and Piaget are diametrically opposed (I wrote a lot about that long ago). But Vygotsky vs Chomsky I have given less thought to. The real sticking point is the specificity of the language that Chomsky posits. But remember Chomsky was working with a narrow palette. He knew nothing about psychology at all in the 60's. And he probably thought he didn't have to. As for our symbolic capacities, it seems he didn't give it any thought. He was also working in a vacuum when he talked about the development of language - he thought we had a very impoverished input from others. And we know now that that is absolutely not the case: Children get a very rich input from their caregivers. So perhaps we should not really be giving Chomsky much of a platform on XMCA. Carol On 16 December 2014 at 21:38, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > > I do not want people to come down on...thinking out loud about another way > to resolve the controversy between chomskyianites and vygotskyites...i > think it can be done through phenomenology (arrogance of youth maybe, but I > am going to try it).... > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: "Dr. Paul C. > Mocombe"
Date:12/16/2014 2:01 PM > (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Chomsky, > Vygotsky, and phenomenology
>
Is it really the case thay chomsky and Vygotsky diametrically oppose > one another? As I read Vygotsky it appears as if something is missing. > That something for me was the internalization process. I was reading his > concept of internalization as though he was suggesting that it took place > among an empiricist view of the human being as a "blank slate." hence my > questions in the previous thread. If chomsky is right, which I think he is > to some extent, does that change Vygotsky or can we synthesize the two? > I am working on a paper to attempt to do just that through > phenomenology.... > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jan 30 09:23:53 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 17:23:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: <88F20455-F923-46EE-BD93-063F1581B548@uniandes.edu.co> References: <974007D9-7E6B-468C-89DB-FCA6E88832CF@uniandes.edu.co> , <88F20455-F923-46EE-BD93-063F1581B548@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <1422638632917.12571@unm.edu> Huw, 1. It would be great to be able to highlight a PDF while reading, and possibly add a note to tag it, then later to be able to collate and organize those notes (from the PDFs) without losing where they come from, without having to put anything in folders at all. Just leave the highlighting in the PDF so the context isn't lost. The PDF(with its highlights and tags), being housed in the reference DB, would be searchable at anytime. A search list or filtered list of these highlighted texts/quotes could allow clicking on the entry and then open the PDF and take you to where it's located in the paper. I suppose what I'm getting at is to try to reduce the need to file anything. Who has time for that? Can the search facility be the focus for organizing? Do your search and then save the search list to reference in the future if need be. 2. Auto-generated citations would be good too, but I think that's an easy reach, isn't it? 3. Papers (the now-Springer software) has a cool search feature that allows searching the internet for recent papers by the author. Sometimes it doesn't always work, but even finding one or two new entries makes it worth the crufty list that is sometimes produced. Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jan 30 09:56:20 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 17:56:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] I like the idea of "xe" as genderless article in English. Message-ID: <1422640580361.93544@unm.edu> What do you think, fellow xmcars? "Xe" would be great because to pronounce "x" is in-between "h-" and "sh-" The possessive "xer" I prefer over "xim", although it should probably be "xits." I just never liked "they" or "them" because it is plural and therefore confusing. It's the best option I've learned about. But the violence still has to go. I learned about "xe" here: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/magazine/the-fire-on-the-57-bus-in-oakland.html?? Kind regards, Annalisa From jwmuic@gmail.com Fri Jan 30 10:16:30 2015 From: jwmuic@gmail.com (Jose W. Melendez) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 12:16:30 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I like the idea of "xe" as genderless article in English. In-Reply-To: <1422640580361.93544@unm.edu> References: <1422640580361.93544@unm.edu> Message-ID: Hi Annalisa, This has been a recurrent conversation in the Queer community. A synopsis of genera neutral pronouns for English can be found at https://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress.com/tag/ze-and-zir/ Saludos, Jos? On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:56 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > What do you think, fellow xmcars? > > > "Xe" would be great because to pronounce "x" is in-between "h-" and "sh-" > The possessive "xer" I prefer over "xim", although it should probably be > "xits." > > > I just never liked "they" or "them" because it is plural and therefore > confusing. > > > It's the best option I've learned about. > > > But the violence still has to go. I learned about "xe" here: > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/magazine/the-fire-on-the-57-bus-in-oakland.html > < > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/magazine/the-fire-on-the-57-bus-in-oakland.html?action=click&contentCollection=Magazine®ion=Footer&module=MoreInSection&pgtype=article > >?? > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jan 30 10:34:59 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 18:34:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I like the idea of "xe" as genderless article in English. In-Reply-To: References: <1422640580361.93544@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1422642899515.56796@unm.edu> Awesome sauce! I think then not to create additional options, that I'd defer to "xir" over "xits" which sounds like pimples (zits). The reason I like X- instead of Z- is that it has an appeal of contraction, I'm not sure what the technical term is in linguistics, but like saying "Xmas," the X in this case standing in for the person whose gender may or may not be known. But ze, zir, zirs is good too, and so I guess I am adding to the pot by attempting a hybrid of ze/zir/zirs and xe/xem/xyr/xyrs by proposing this: xe/xir/xirs. That combination isn't covered on the page you sent. I believe mine is more ecological. I also want to say that discussion considering the content of the article link I sent may also be considered a standing and open invitation, because there is A LOT there to discuss than just genderless articles. But regardless! :) Thanks for this, Jos?! On Friday, January 30, 2015 11:16 AM, Jose W. Melendez wrote: Hi Annalisa, This has been a recurrent conversation in the Queer community. A synopsis of genera neutral pronouns for English can be found at https://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress.com/tag/ze-and-zir/ Saludos, Jos? On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:56 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > What do you think, fellow xmcars? > > > "Xe" would be great because to pronounce "x" is in-between "h-" and "sh-" > The possessive "xer" I prefer over "xim", although it should probably be > "xits." > > I just never liked "they" or "them" because it is plural and therefore > confusing. > > It's the best option I've learned about. > > But the violence still has to go. I learned about "xe" here: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/magazine/the-fire-on-the-57-bus-in-oakland.html > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Jan 30 11:46:48 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:46:48 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: <1422638632917.12571@unm.edu> References: <974007D9-7E6B-468C-89DB-FCA6E88832CF@uniandes.edu.co> , <88F20455-F923-46EE-BD93-063F1581B548@uniandes.edu.co> <1422638632917.12571@unm.edu> Message-ID: Defrosting the digital library: Martin On Jan 30, 2015, at 12:23 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Huw, > > 1. It would be great to be able to highlight a PDF while reading, and possibly add a note to tag it, then later to be able to collate and organize those notes (from the PDFs) without losing where they come from, without having to put anything in folders at all. Just leave the highlighting in the PDF so the context isn't lost. The PDF(with its highlights and tags), being housed in the reference DB, would be searchable at anytime. > > A search list or filtered list of these highlighted texts/quotes could allow clicking on the entry and then open the PDF and take you to where it's located in the paper. > > I suppose what I'm getting at is to try to reduce the need to file anything. Who has time for that? Can the search facility be the focus for organizing? Do your search and then save the search list to reference in the future if need be. > > 2. Auto-generated citations would be good too, but I think that's an easy reach, isn't it? > > 3. Papers (the now-Springer software) has a cool search feature that allows searching the internet for recent papers by the author. Sometimes it doesn't always work, but even finding one or two new entries makes it worth the crufty list that is sometimes produced. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jan 30 11:55:08 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 11:55:08 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: References: <974007D9-7E6B-468C-89DB-FCA6E88832CF@uniandes.edu.co> <88F20455-F923-46EE-BD93-063F1581B548@uniandes.edu.co> <1422638632917.12571@unm.edu> Message-ID: Hi Martin Don't floods often occur not too long after a sudden defrost? mike On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Martin John Packer < mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > Defrosting the digital library: > > < > http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000204 > > > > Martin > > On Jan 30, 2015, at 12:23 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Huw, > > > > 1. It would be great to be able to highlight a PDF while reading, and > possibly add a note to tag it, then later to be able to collate and > organize those notes (from the PDFs) without losing where they come from, > without having to put anything in folders at all. Just leave the > highlighting in the PDF so the context isn't lost. The PDF(with its > highlights and tags), being housed in the reference DB, would be searchable > at anytime. > > > > A search list or filtered list of these highlighted texts/quotes could > allow clicking on the entry and then open the PDF and take you to where > it's located in the paper. > > > > I suppose what I'm getting at is to try to reduce the need to file > anything. Who has time for that? Can the search facility be the focus for > organizing? Do your search and then save the search list to reference in > the future if need be. > > > > 2. Auto-generated citations would be good too, but I think that's an > easy reach, isn't it? > > > > 3. Papers (the now-Springer software) has a cool search feature that > allows searching the internet for recent papers by the author. Sometimes it > doesn't always work, but even finding one or two new entries makes it worth > the crufty list that is sometimes produced. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jan 30 14:38:02 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 22:38:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: References: <974007D9-7E6B-468C-89DB-FCA6E88832CF@uniandes.edu.co> <88F20455-F923-46EE-BD93-063F1581B548@uniandes.edu.co> <1422638632917.12571@unm.edu> , Message-ID: <1422657482784.19412@unm.edu> Hello all, What seems problematic about these solutions in Martin's link (pun intended there, as solutions and floodplains go) is that they are closely coupled with sundry corporations. Is there an OpenSource solution for a refDB as we are thinking about? Participating with corporate and closed code on these kinds of reference DBs furnishes the opportunity for them an ability to "watch" what researchers are searching for in their own stash of cold storage. That seems problematic to me. (Maybe people are already thinking this?) But here's my question: Is it possible to hook on to Open Journal somehow? I was looking at Hau and found this: http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/about/aboutThisPublishingSystem which led me to this: https://pkp.sfu.ca/about/history/ and this, which has some interesting costing information, fyi: http://pkp.sfu.ca/files/Library_Hi_Tech_DRAFT.pdf I realize these are publishing systems, but doesn't it make sense to have a refDB cooperate with the architecture of Open Journal? Given the great butter Huw will churn out, the skilled milkmaid that he is :) it is entirely possible that lots of researchers and students would pile high the butter on toast, muffins, bagels, and scones with much delight. Now, if that were to happen, this may be their intro to the Open Journal system possibly inspiring more researchers to start new journals on said platform, or to switch over to it. Such is my prefiguration attempt? Hope the dam didn't break there? Kind regards, Annalisa From miyasan@waseda.jp Fri Jan 30 16:47:22 2015 From: miyasan@waseda.jp (miyazaki kiyotaka) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 09:47:22 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Naoki Ueno passed away In-Reply-To: References: <9BE72742-050F-4FD1-A41F-92CC6FB9472A@waseda.jp> Message-ID: Dear Huw, Thanks for your response. I will tell your message to my Japanese colleagues. Kiyo Miyazaki 2015/01/30 22:15?Huw Lloyd ????? > Thank you, Miyazaki, for reporting this. > > It seems that whenever I am writing something lighthearted, I hear news of > someone trying to do good things dying. Somehow we will have to be both. > > Huw > > On 30 January 2015 at 02:39, miyazaki kiyotaka wrote: > >> Dear All xMCAers, >> >> We have regrettably inform you that Naoki Ueno, one of the most active and >> influential researchers in Japanese activity theory, has passed away on >> 27th January because of pancreas cancer. As we in Japan didn?t have any >> information on his health problem, the news was a big surprise for us. He >> had been the militant critique of the cognitivism since his graduate >> student days. It was after his return from sabbatical stay at LCHC in 1989, >> however, that his work became very productive and influential in Japan. He >> introduced the ideas of situated approach to Japan, and shocked us. He has >> remained at the front of the activity theory research and stimulating us >> not only in Japan but also internationally until his young death at 64. As >> he has many friends and comrades internationally, we tell all of you this >> sad news in xmca network. >> >> Kiyotaka Miyazaki >> Waseda University, >> Japan. >> From miyasan@waseda.jp Fri Jan 30 16:56:03 2015 From: miyasan@waseda.jp (miyazaki kiyotaka) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 09:56:03 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Naoki Ueno passed away In-Reply-To: References: <9BE72742-050F-4FD1-A41F-92CC6FB9472A@waseda.jp> Message-ID: Dear Mike, Thank you for your warm message and the introduction of Naoki to those whom don?t know him. His driving on American streets! Yes, I myself had a honor to be in his car when I visited LCHC?.I will tell your message to my Japanese colleagues. Thanks, Kiyo Miyazaki 2015/01/31 1:08?mike cole ????? > The news of Naoki's passing is very sad, Kiyoo. He was a wonderful > colleague with a great sense of humor, a marvelous intellect, and a manner > of driving a car on American streets that all who were around at the time > will remember. > > For those of you who never met, or even heard of, Naoki Ueno, put his name > into the search > facility at lchc.ucsd.edu and you will be able quickly to get some feeling > for the times and his contributions to an earlier generation of xmca. For > some idea of his earlier work, see > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Journal/f95.html > :.....( > mike > > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> Thank you, Miyazaki, for reporting this. >> >> It seems that whenever I am writing something lighthearted, I hear news of >> someone trying to do good things dying. Somehow we will have to be both. >> >> Huw >> >> On 30 January 2015 at 02:39, miyazaki kiyotaka wrote: >> >>> Dear All xMCAers, >>> >>> We have regrettably inform you that Naoki Ueno, one of the most active >> and >>> influential researchers in Japanese activity theory, has passed away on >>> 27th January because of pancreas cancer. As we in Japan didn?t have any >>> information on his health problem, the news was a big surprise for us. He >>> had been the militant critique of the cognitivism since his graduate >>> student days. It was after his return from sabbatical stay at LCHC in >> 1989, >>> however, that his work became very productive and influential in Japan. >> He >>> introduced the ideas of situated approach to Japan, and shocked us. He >> has >>> remained at the front of the activity theory research and stimulating us >>> not only in Japan but also internationally until his young death at 64. >> As >>> he has many friends and comrades internationally, we tell all of you this >>> sad news in xmca network. >>> >>> Kiyotaka Miyazaki >>> Waseda University, >>> Japan. >>> >> > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science as an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Jan 31 14:43:31 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 15:43:31 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Larry, I guess it was you who got the Mobius strip into this thread a few days ago, which I geriatically and vaguely reacalled after my wife showed me earlier today the attached from Vimeo. Until now, I have never really understood where Bach?s Crab Cannon got its name. I love how the video makes that clear. Some years back a musician friend of mine told me that he saw his guitar fretboard like a mobius stip, no top or bottom, an Eternal Golden Thread, as Hofstadter would have it. Many years ago I remember Vera John Steiner's writing and talking about the INTERLACEMENT of biological and cultural factors in human development. How beautiful this cluster of metaphors. How generative. How creative. It just occurred to me that the efforts on another thread to create an architecture for a data base seem to be working for a mobius kind of seamlessness. Don?t bother stop me. It will all pass by tomorrow night. Henry http://vimeo.com/69715960 > On Jan 25, 2015, at 9:35 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > I have imaginally been walking with Zinchenko who is telling me about his > chats with Schpet and Vygotsky. > Zinchenko is engaged in rehabilitating the centrality of the meaning > of "meaning" to processes of phenomenological historical understanding, and > interpretation. His conversation is in the form of a rejoinder [or > joining back] with Vygotsky and Schpet with who he wants to bring out their > mutually shared thesis on the relation of thought and word. > Zinchenko uses metaphors to poetically embody his attempt to have > "meanings" more modest place with Vygotsky take on a more prominent and > central quality. > > Zinchenko wrote: > "A good image for the mutual relationships of meaning and sense is a Mobius > strip. In the process of understanding or thinking, we encounter > oppositely encountered *acts of making sense of meanings and sense giving > meaningful signs to senses *[authors emphasis], which are transformed into > each other. In Russian, 'meaning' ['znachenie'] and 'sign' ['znak'] have a > common root and, hence, the untranslated italicized phrase sounds like a > Russian pun. On the outer side of the strip may be meaning, which is > transformed into sense as a result of the act of making sense, and this > *becomes* the internal side of the *same* strip. Assigning a meaningful > sign to sense makes an *analogous *transformation. Anyway, it was highly > productive for Vygotsky to change the *focus* from *'meaning*' to sense. *Such > a change *brings his views closer to those of Shpet. [page 228] > > I will pause here but want to point out how the metaphor of the Mobius > strip has a similar quality to the hermeneutical movement of "fusions of > horizons" > > Larry > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Thank you, Martin! >> Henry >> >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 1:49 PM, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >>> >>> This is the information I have, Henry. >>> >>> Freiberger-Sheikholeslami, E. (1984). Gustav G. Shpet: Hermeneutical >> logic and philosophical semiotics. In J. Deely (Ed.), Semiotics 1984 (pp. >> 381-391). Bloomington: Semiotic Society of America. >>> >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>> >>>> Martin, >>>> Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings and >> dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and his >> context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the eyes of >> hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes article was >> written? >>>> Henry >>>> >>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer < >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as Larry >> points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a little >> background: >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. >>>>>> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that Shpet >> and >>>>>> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". >>>>>> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet >> disagreed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph >>>>>> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the Approaches >> of L. >>>>>> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain [which I >>>>>> associated with the other thread on rain] >>>>>> >>>>>> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there is a >>>>>> long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is hard to >>>>>> overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with Aleksandr >> Potebnya. >>>>>> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the various >>>>>> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their preference >> to the >>>>>> word, although they understood it differently. Let us start from >>>>>> Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in thought >> is >>>>>> successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a thought >> with a >>>>>> cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition from >>>>>> thought to language is a very complicated process of *dismemberment* >> of a >>>>>> thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, Vygotsky >> wrote, >>>>>> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the >> motivation of >>>>>> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If something >> can *pour >>>>>> itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can >> understand the >>>>>> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is *expressed >> *in a >>>>>> word" [emphasis in the original] >>>>>> >>>>>> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation >> *behind the >>>>>> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and >> language as >>>>>> oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place the >>>>>> approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present them as >>>>>> mutually complimentary approaches. >>>>>> >>>>>> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of >>>>>> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within words. >>>>>> Polyphonic notions >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 31 15:59:03 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 23:59:03 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> , Message-ID: <1422748745267.38210@unm.edu> Hi, I would like to offer (with kindness, not adversity) that I don't think this is exactly right, mike, that meaning infuses the structure of motor and perceptual activities, because we have not included affect here. The body isn't a machine that just acts in activity without feeling. We know for example from Damasio that affect is required to reason, which means we sense and feel *before* we reason, if it is allowable for me to connect sensing with feeling and affect. Did Vygotsky know this? Or Shpet? I wonder why there hasn't been more climbing on board of Damasio's work. This seems to be a huge discovery. It is my sense (!) that sensing is not solely perceptual, but references memory as well. Learning and memory-making have important connections to affective experiences. Is it possible that Vygotsky was using "sense" as a way to discuss thinking with the body, but with feeling, in the moment of NOW as one faces one's environment? That these impressions are made in a unique manner that pertains only to the person. In other words, the process of structure-creating is phylogenetic, the scenario in which this process takes place is ontogenetic, and therefore the resulting manifestation is particular to the person and one's environment? We all have faces with certain properties: two eyes, a nose, a mouth, cheeks, etc., yet the face itself is unique to each person, despite family resemblances. If this is so, it could explain experiences of "race" or "gender" without there actually being a location for these experiences of "race" or "gender" in the body (explained genetically, for example). In this way, the experience is experienced by the experiencer at the moment of the experience. It is not pre-programmed, not totally. Let me try this way: because I have a female body, I will not feel danger any differently than other humans in a war zone of bullets flying, but I may feel danger differently walking down a dark street that a man may not. So it's because I have a female body, but not because I have a female body, that I have these experiences. And yet on a given night I may not have this experience at all walking down a dark street, because on that particular night, I feel completely safe. If affect were not important, then I could not have these experiences that I experience. It is this disconnect (removal of affect from the equation of being myself) that perhaps is something along the lines of the double-consciousness that African Americans experience (as Paul has explained), but I certainly do not want to speak for African-American experience, just that in my imagination, I can see connections and parallels. This dualism (the split of thought and affect) can only be eradicated when we reunite the affect (which actually has never been separated in experience, but is separated out in the manner of propaganda functions, a reality that is not really real, along the lines of C'est ne pas un pipe and yet, here is a pipe). I believe that this is the antidote, to remove the confusion by looking for wholeness in thought and affect. It is a removal, in order to unite. Because we have 450 years of Descartes to face, it is a slippery endeavor. Meaning: this isn't easy if we look inside our own culture which has no means for filtering this out. This is why I offer it may be useful to look to the East because I don't believe there is the same urgent project to separate mind from body. This is my sense. I could be wrong. Those people in the East are people too, after all, aren't they? :) What can be learned from comparing and contrasting? I'd think a lot! Isn't it true that otherness can only arise by removal of affect? Furthermore, isn't it possible to rationalize the unethical once the affect has been removed? These are questions I would invite further exploration, if there is interest. Kind regards, Annalisa From Peg.Griffin@att.net Sat Jan 31 16:03:50 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 19:03:50 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Naoki Ueno passed away In-Reply-To: <9BE72742-050F-4FD1-A41F-92CC6FB9472A@waseda.jp> References: <9BE72742-050F-4FD1-A41F-92CC6FB9472A@waseda.jp> Message-ID: <00fb01d03db2$8ff697c0$afe3c740$@att.net> Thank you for letting us know about the loss of Naoki Ueno. It is a deep loss for many of us. He helped me so much to think about Sayeki-san's developing kobito theory and to recognize its power when studying mathematics and science learning. I am quite sure that some of the kobitos that Ueno-san sent into the world during our problem solving talks remain active in my life events even today. Peg Griffin Peg Griffin, Ph. D. Washington, DC 20003 -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of miyazaki kiyotaka Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 9:40 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Naoki Ueno passed away Dear All xMCAers, We have regrettably inform you that Naoki Ueno, one of the most active and influential researchers in Japanese activity theory, has passed away on 27th January because of pancreas cancer. As we in Japan didn?t have any information on his health problem, the news was a big surprise for us. He had been the militant critique of the cognitivism since his graduate student days. It was after his return from sabbatical stay at LCHC in 1989, however, that his work became very productive and influential in Japan. He introduced the ideas of situated approach to Japan, and shocked us. He has remained at the front of the activity theory research and stimulating us not only in Japan but also internationally until his young death at 64. As he has many friends and comrades internationally, we tell all of you this sad news in xmca network. Kiyotaka Miyazaki Waseda University, Japan. From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 31 16:20:07 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 00:20:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Naoki Ueno passed away In-Reply-To: <00fb01d03db2$8ff697c0$afe3c740$@att.net> References: <9BE72742-050F-4FD1-A41F-92CC6FB9472A@waseda.jp>, <00fb01d03db2$8ff697c0$afe3c740$@att.net> Message-ID: <1422750008862.97175@unm.edu> Is it possible that there will be something in MCA about Dr. Ueno so that those of us who could not know of his work could learn? I am hoping... Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jan 31 16:22:32 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 16:22:32 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Naoki Ueno passed away In-Reply-To: <00fb01d03db2$8ff697c0$afe3c740$@att.net> References: <9BE72742-050F-4FD1-A41F-92CC6FB9472A@waseda.jp> <00fb01d03db2$8ff697c0$afe3c740$@att.net> Message-ID: Your memories have sparked a connection, Peg, that I had not made before. The interconnectedness, from our perspective, of the work of our Japanese colleagues. For those who do not know the work of Yutaka Sayeki. In my next note I will post the paper he gave at ISCAR a few years ago. Ueno's work out to be of interest to xmca members if they are not too ploughed under. Posted lchc link in prior message. mike On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 4:03 PM, Peg Griffin wrote: > Thank you for letting us know about the loss of Naoki Ueno. It is a deep > loss for many of us. He helped me so much to think about Sayeki-san's > developing kobito theory and to recognize its power when studying > mathematics and science learning. I am quite sure that some of the kobitos > that Ueno-san sent into the world during our problem solving talks remain > active in my life events even today. > Peg Griffin > > Peg Griffin, Ph. D. > Washington, DC 20003 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of miyazaki kiyotaka > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 9:40 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Naoki Ueno passed away > > Dear All xMCAers, > > We have regrettably inform you that Naoki Ueno, one of the most active and > influential researchers in Japanese activity theory, has passed away on > 27th January because of pancreas cancer. As we in Japan didn?t have any > information on his health problem, the news was a big surprise for us. He > had been the militant critique of the cognitivism since his graduate > student days. It was after his return from sabbatical stay at LCHC in 1989, > however, that his work became very productive and influential in Japan. He > introduced the ideas of situated approach to Japan, and shocked us. He has > remained at the front of the activity theory research and stimulating us > not only in Japan but also internationally until his young death at 64. As > he has many friends and comrades internationally, we tell all of you this > sad news in xmca network. > > Kiyotaka Miyazaki > Waseda University, > Japan. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jan 31 16:30:40 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 16:30:40 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Imagination Message-ID: Attached is a paper by Yutaka Sayeki, our long time colleague brought to mind by Peg's note on the death of Naoki Ueno. As you will see, his work has everything to do with imagination, as the book title indicates. Sayeki-san's "imagination based" theory is pretty amazing. At least encountering it was for me. I actually solved a physics problem of the kind I ALWAYS blow. The Newsletter article referenced in his talk gives a couple of concrete data examples. For discussion if people are interested. mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ISCAR Sayeki.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1315207 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150131/b4b174bb/attachment-0001.pdf From miyasan@waseda.jp Sat Jan 31 16:41:57 2015 From: miyasan@waseda.jp (miyazaki kiyotaka) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 09:41:57 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Naoki Ueno passed away In-Reply-To: <00fb01d03db2$8ff697c0$afe3c740$@att.net> References: <9BE72742-050F-4FD1-A41F-92CC6FB9472A@waseda.jp> <00fb01d03db2$8ff697c0$afe3c740$@att.net> Message-ID: Thanks, Peg, I will pass your message to the Japanese colleagues. Kiyo Miyazaki 2015/02/01 9:03?Peg Griffin ????? > Thank you for letting us know about the loss of Naoki Ueno. It is a deep loss for many of us. He helped me so much to think about Sayeki-san's developing kobito theory and to recognize its power when studying mathematics and science learning. I am quite sure that some of the kobitos that Ueno-san sent into the world during our problem solving talks remain active in my life events even today. > Peg Griffin > > Peg Griffin, Ph. D. > Washington, DC 20003 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of miyazaki kiyotaka > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 9:40 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Naoki Ueno passed away > > Dear All xMCAers, > > We have regrettably inform you that Naoki Ueno, one of the most active and influential researchers in Japanese activity theory, has passed away on 27th January because of pancreas cancer. As we in Japan didn?t have any information on his health problem, the news was a big surprise for us. He had been the militant critique of the cognitivism since his graduate student days. It was after his return from sabbatical stay at LCHC in 1989, however, that his work became very productive and influential in Japan. He introduced the ideas of situated approach to Japan, and shocked us. He has remained at the front of the activity theory research and stimulating us not only in Japan but also internationally until his young death at 64. As he has many friends and comrades internationally, we tell all of you this sad news in xmca network. > > Kiyotaka Miyazaki > Waseda University, > Japan. > > From Peg.Griffin@att.net Sat Jan 31 16:45:35 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 19:45:35 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Imagination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010801d03db8$64ec29e0$2ec47da0$@att.net> Just to add to the material for thinking with, I am pasting in here a couple of abstracts from joint work involving Yutaka Sayeki and Naoki Ueno Peg ___________________________________ Date: Thu 16 Feb 89 11:23:36-EST From: Marc Vilain Subject: BBN AI/Education seminar: Sayeki & Ueno To: ai-f...@G.BBN.COM BBN Science Development Program AI Seminar Series Lecture MENTAL MODELS AS THEATER YUTAKA SAYEKI, NAOKI UENO, University of Tokyo National Institute of Educational Research BBN Labs 10 Moulton Street 2nd floor large conference room 10:30 am, Tuesday February 21 This talk will focus on the understanding physics problems, taking a model of the theater and combining it with kobito theory in which point of view has a critical role in understanding objects and environments. In Theater, as Peckham (1965) describes, we have an enormously rich variety of metaphors for new features for computer interfaces that can aid in understanding: Actors, Directors, Stage Conductors, Audience, Critics, Stage, Stage-Setting, Background, Foreground, Scenes, Play, , Casts, Casting, Script, Scripting, Rehearsal, Dramatist , Improvising, Ad-lib, Show, and so on. In kobito theory as elaborated by Sayeki, "point of view" and active participation in different modes of activities (such as "throwing in, " "acting out," and "feeling about") is considered to be crucial for exercising roles of actors, viewers (audience and directors) in order to get deep understanding. The following features are found in the notions elaborated by Peckham, Ueno, and Sayeki: (1) Every "view" must be a view from a particular vantage point in situ playing a particular Role, that can be shifted, moved, exchanged, or replaced. The important point here is is that we actively choose and try out taking a variety of vantage points, in order to delineate the critical "invariant structure" (cf. Gibson) of the scene. Shifting vantage points can yield "insight" into a solution as Peckham described, too. We need "tools" and "stages" for searching and trying-out possible vantage points. (2) We learn more from observing the continuous changes of scenes, or movements of objects along with our own movements and actions upon the objects, rather than fixed "representations" or "snapshots" of objects . (Here again, we take a Gibsonian view, rather than the "representationalist's view" of cognitive science.) (3) We learn and think by acting, participating, and changing in a broad domain of activity, rather than simply watching or manipulating objects in your hands or on your "desktop," without moving your original position. An important point here is that we occasionally change the domain of activity, such as working at the desk, travelling by car, train, and airplane, attending conferences, working at home at night, and so on. Current interface technology assumes an "armchair viewer" at the fixed position. (4) "Representation" is NOT a thought by itself; it is a medium of thoughts. "Representation" should be "social" from the beginning and be used "socially." It must be deeply rooted in cultural, "shared" knowledge, as well as triggered by the materialized "form" or appearance of the object to be represented. In the presentation, we will explain a number of misunderstandings of physics problems as either (1) miscasting of actors, or (2) mis-staging of the environment. Thus it would be possible to "cure" some of the "conceptual bugs" by re-casting or re-staging the situations. We shall illustrate these points by the use of 3D Logo. __________________________________________________________ Mediation as a generative model for obtaining an area Yutaka Sayeki, ?, Naoki Ueno?, Toshihiko Nagasaka? doi:10.1016/0959-4752(91)90005-S Abstract In Japanese elementary schools, the standard method employed to instruct students to calculate the area of a parallelogram is what can be called the ?paper-cut model?. However, this method of instruction has many shortcomings. Following the Cavalieri method, we developed an alternative, ?a deck of cards model?. Here, the side of a deck of cards represents the area to be calculated. One can physically generate various shapes, all of which have the same area, by transforming the side and without adding or taking away any cards. Three fifth-grades with a total of 104 students were randomly divided into one experimental and two control groups. Each pupil was supplied with a real deck of cards and was encouraged to experiment with constructing areas of different shapes. In cooperation with the teacher they could also establish that the area remained invariant through the transformations. Post-tests carried out one week after the instruction showed that the ?deck of cards model? was a superior instruction method in several respects. Address for correspondence: Y. Sayeki, Faculty of Education, University of Tokyo, Hongo, Bunkyo-ku, Tokyo (113), Japan. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 7:31 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Imagination Attached is a paper by Yutaka Sayeki, our long time colleague brought to mind by Peg's note on the death of Naoki Ueno. As you will see, his work has everything to do with imagination, as the book title indicates. Sayeki-san's "imagination based" theory is pretty amazing. At least encountering it was for me. I actually solved a physics problem of the kind I ALWAYS blow. The Newsletter article referenced in his talk gives a couple of concrete data examples. For discussion if people are interested. mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jan 31 16:49:27 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 16:49:27 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: <1422748745267.38210@unm.edu> References: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> <1422748745267.38210@unm.edu> Message-ID: ?Annalisa -- The way you have posted your note leaves me clueless about why you are addressing me, or what it is that I wrote that you are addressing. We certainly agree that emotion and cognition are mutually constituted. Clue me into the message that gave rise to these thoughts and suggestions. mike ? On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 3:59 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi, > > I would like to offer (with kindness, not adversity) that I don't think > this is exactly right, mike, that meaning infuses the structure of motor > and perceptual activities, because we have not included affect here. The > body isn't a machine that just acts in activity without feeling. > > We know for example from Damasio that affect is required to reason, which > means we sense and feel *before* we reason, if it is allowable for me to > connect sensing with feeling and affect. Did Vygotsky know this? Or Shpet? > > I wonder why there hasn't been more climbing on board of Damasio's work. > This seems to be a huge discovery. > > It is my sense (!) that sensing is not solely perceptual, but references > memory as well. Learning and memory-making have important connections to > affective experiences. > > Is it possible that Vygotsky was using "sense" as a way to discuss > thinking with the body, but with feeling, in the moment of NOW as one faces > one's environment? That these impressions are made in a unique manner that > pertains only to the person. In other words, the process of > structure-creating is phylogenetic, the scenario in which this process > takes place is ontogenetic, and therefore the resulting manifestation is > particular to the person and one's environment? We all have faces with > certain properties: two eyes, a nose, a mouth, cheeks, etc., yet the face > itself is unique to each person, despite family resemblances. > > If this is so, it could explain experiences of "race" or "gender" without > there actually being a location for these experiences of "race" or "gender" > in the body (explained genetically, for example). In this way, the > experience is experienced by the experiencer at the moment of the > experience. It is not pre-programmed, not totally. > > Let me try this way: because I have a female body, I will not feel danger > any differently than other humans in a war zone of bullets flying, but I > may feel danger differently walking down a dark street that a man may not. > So it's because I have a female body, but not because I have a female body, > that I have these experiences. And yet on a given night I may not have this > experience at all walking down a dark street, because on that particular > night, I feel completely safe. > > If affect were not important, then I could not have these experiences that > I experience. It is this disconnect (removal of affect from the equation of > being myself) that perhaps is something along the lines of the > double-consciousness that African Americans experience (as Paul has > explained), but I certainly do not want to speak for African-American > experience, just that in my imagination, I can see connections and > parallels. > > This dualism (the split of thought and affect) can only be eradicated when > we reunite the affect (which actually has never been separated in > experience, but is separated out in the manner of propaganda functions, a > reality that is not really real, along the lines of C'est ne pas un pipe > and yet, here is a pipe). I believe that this is the antidote, to remove > the confusion by looking for wholeness in thought and affect. It is a > removal, in order to unite. > > Because we have 450 years of Descartes to face, it is a slippery endeavor. > Meaning: this isn't easy if we look inside our own culture which has no > means for filtering this out. This is why I offer it may be useful to look > to the East because I don't believe there is the same urgent project to > separate mind from body. This is my sense. I could be wrong. Those people > in the East are people too, after all, aren't they? :) What can be learned > from comparing and contrasting? I'd think a lot! > > Isn't it true that otherness can only arise by removal of affect? > Furthermore, isn't it possible to rationalize the unethical once the affect > has been removed? These are questions I would invite further exploration, > if there is interest. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jan 31 16:53:19 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 16:53:19 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you for the video and for the reference to Vera's use of the term "enlacement" to describe the relation of phylogeny and cultural history, Henry. I have been accustomed to thinking in terms of "entanglement." What I like about enlacement is the that it provides an aesthetic quality to the their mutual engagement, and culture is all about aesthetics. Separately on the mobious bach mike On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 2:43 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Larry, > I guess it was you who got the Mobius strip into this thread a few days > ago, which I geriatically and vaguely reacalled after my wife showed me > earlier today the attached from Vimeo. Until now, I have never really > understood where Bach?s Crab Cannon got its name. I love how the video > makes that clear. Some years back a musician friend of mine told me that he > saw his guitar fretboard like a mobius stip, no top or bottom, an Eternal > Golden Thread, as Hofstadter would have it. Many years ago I remember Vera > John Steiner's writing and talking about the INTERLACEMENT of biological > and cultural factors in human development. How beautiful this cluster of > metaphors. How generative. How creative. It just occurred to me that the > efforts on another thread to create an architecture for a data base seem to > be working for a mobius kind of seamlessness. Don?t bother stop me. It will > all pass by tomorrow night. > Henry > > http://vimeo.com/69715960 > > > > > > On Jan 25, 2015, at 9:35 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > I have imaginally been walking with Zinchenko who is telling me about his > > chats with Schpet and Vygotsky. > > Zinchenko is engaged in rehabilitating the centrality of the meaning > > of "meaning" to processes of phenomenological historical understanding, > and > > interpretation. His conversation is in the form of a rejoinder [or > > joining back] with Vygotsky and Schpet with who he wants to bring out > their > > mutually shared thesis on the relation of thought and word. > > Zinchenko uses metaphors to poetically embody his attempt to have > > "meanings" more modest place with Vygotsky take on a more prominent and > > central quality. > > > > Zinchenko wrote: > > "A good image for the mutual relationships of meaning and sense is a > Mobius > > strip. In the process of understanding or thinking, we encounter > > oppositely encountered *acts of making sense of meanings and sense giving > > meaningful signs to senses *[authors emphasis], which are transformed > into > > each other. In Russian, 'meaning' ['znachenie'] and 'sign' ['znak'] have > a > > common root and, hence, the untranslated italicized phrase sounds like a > > Russian pun. On the outer side of the strip may be meaning, which is > > transformed into sense as a result of the act of making sense, and this > > *becomes* the internal side of the *same* strip. Assigning a meaningful > > sign to sense makes an *analogous *transformation. Anyway, it was > highly > > productive for Vygotsky to change the *focus* from *'meaning*' to > sense. *Such > > a change *brings his views closer to those of Shpet. [page 228] > > > > I will pause here but want to point out how the metaphor of the Mobius > > strip has a similar quality to the hermeneutical movement of "fusions of > > horizons" > > > > Larry > > > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > >> Thank you, Martin! > >> Henry > >> > >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 1:49 PM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> This is the information I have, Henry. > >>> > >>> Freiberger-Sheikholeslami, E. (1984). Gustav G. Shpet: Hermeneutical > >> logic and philosophical semiotics. In J. Deely (Ed.), Semiotics 1984 > (pp. > >> 381-391). Bloomington: Semiotic Society of America. > >>> > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >>> > >>>> Martin, > >>>> Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings and > >> dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and his > >> context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the eyes of > >> hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes article was > >> written? > >>>> Henry > >>>> > >>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer < > >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as Larry > >> points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a little > >> background: > >>>>> > >>>>> Martin > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss > >> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. > >>>>>> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that > Shpet > >> and > >>>>>> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". > >>>>>> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet > >> disagreed. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph > >>>>>> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the > Approaches > >> of L. > >>>>>> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain [which I > >>>>>> associated with the other thread on rain] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there is a > >>>>>> long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is hard to > >>>>>> overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with Aleksandr > >> Potebnya. > >>>>>> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the various > >>>>>> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their preference > >> to the > >>>>>> word, although they understood it differently. Let us start from > >>>>>> Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in > thought > >> is > >>>>>> successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a thought > >> with a > >>>>>> cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition from > >>>>>> thought to language is a very complicated process of *dismemberment* > >> of a > >>>>>> thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, Vygotsky > >> wrote, > >>>>>> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the > >> motivation of > >>>>>> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If something > >> can *pour > >>>>>> itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can > >> understand the > >>>>>> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is > *expressed > >> *in a > >>>>>> word" [emphasis in the original] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation > >> *behind the > >>>>>> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and > >> language as > >>>>>> oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place the > >>>>>> approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present them > as > >>>>>> mutually complimentary approaches. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of > >>>>>> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within words. > >>>>>> Polyphonic notions > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jan 31 17:05:31 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 17:05:31 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Henry- That video of the bach mobius strip was AMAZING! Aside from the pure pleasure of the music, the magic of music's underlying structure being unfolded for you by coordination of visually represented flowing movement using the spatiality of the musical notation, illustrates a really important example of inter-modal coordination through artifacts all with their own looooooong (in some cases) histories. That is an experience well worth sharing! Thanks. mike On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 2:43 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Larry, > I guess it was you who got the Mobius strip into this thread a few days > ago, which I geriatically and vaguely reacalled after my wife showed me > earlier today the attached from Vimeo. Until now, I have never really > understood where Bach?s Crab Cannon got its name. I love how the video > makes that clear. Some years back a musician friend of mine told me that he > saw his guitar fretboard like a mobius stip, no top or bottom, an Eternal > Golden Thread, as Hofstadter would have it. Many years ago I remember Vera > John Steiner's writing and talking about the INTERLACEMENT of biological > and cultural factors in human development. How beautiful this cluster of > metaphors. How generative. How creative. It just occurred to me that the > efforts on another thread to create an architecture for a data base seem to > be working for a mobius kind of seamlessness. Don?t bother stop me. It will > all pass by tomorrow night. > Henry > > http://vimeo.com/69715960 > > > > > > On Jan 25, 2015, at 9:35 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > I have imaginally been walking with Zinchenko who is telling me about his > > chats with Schpet and Vygotsky. > > Zinchenko is engaged in rehabilitating the centrality of the meaning > > of "meaning" to processes of phenomenological historical understanding, > and > > interpretation. His conversation is in the form of a rejoinder [or > > joining back] with Vygotsky and Schpet with who he wants to bring out > their > > mutually shared thesis on the relation of thought and word. > > Zinchenko uses metaphors to poetically embody his attempt to have > > "meanings" more modest place with Vygotsky take on a more prominent and > > central quality. > > > > Zinchenko wrote: > > "A good image for the mutual relationships of meaning and sense is a > Mobius > > strip. In the process of understanding or thinking, we encounter > > oppositely encountered *acts of making sense of meanings and sense giving > > meaningful signs to senses *[authors emphasis], which are transformed > into > > each other. In Russian, 'meaning' ['znachenie'] and 'sign' ['znak'] have > a > > common root and, hence, the untranslated italicized phrase sounds like a > > Russian pun. On the outer side of the strip may be meaning, which is > > transformed into sense as a result of the act of making sense, and this > > *becomes* the internal side of the *same* strip. Assigning a meaningful > > sign to sense makes an *analogous *transformation. Anyway, it was > highly > > productive for Vygotsky to change the *focus* from *'meaning*' to > sense. *Such > > a change *brings his views closer to those of Shpet. [page 228] > > > > I will pause here but want to point out how the metaphor of the Mobius > > strip has a similar quality to the hermeneutical movement of "fusions of > > horizons" > > > > Larry > > > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > >> Thank you, Martin! > >> Henry > >> > >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 1:49 PM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> This is the information I have, Henry. > >>> > >>> Freiberger-Sheikholeslami, E. (1984). Gustav G. Shpet: Hermeneutical > >> logic and philosophical semiotics. In J. Deely (Ed.), Semiotics 1984 > (pp. > >> 381-391). Bloomington: Semiotic Society of America. > >>> > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >>> > >>>> Martin, > >>>> Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings and > >> dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and his > >> context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the eyes of > >> hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes article was > >> written? > >>>> Henry > >>>> > >>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer < > >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as Larry > >> points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a little > >> background: > >>>>> > >>>>> Martin > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss > >> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. > >>>>>> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that > Shpet > >> and > >>>>>> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". > >>>>>> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet > >> disagreed. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph > >>>>>> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the > Approaches > >> of L. > >>>>>> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain [which I > >>>>>> associated with the other thread on rain] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there is a > >>>>>> long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is hard to > >>>>>> overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with Aleksandr > >> Potebnya. > >>>>>> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the various > >>>>>> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their preference > >> to the > >>>>>> word, although they understood it differently. Let us start from > >>>>>> Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in > thought > >> is > >>>>>> successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a thought > >> with a > >>>>>> cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition from > >>>>>> thought to language is a very complicated process of *dismemberment* > >> of a > >>>>>> thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, Vygotsky > >> wrote, > >>>>>> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the > >> motivation of > >>>>>> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If something > >> can *pour > >>>>>> itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can > >> understand the > >>>>>> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is > *expressed > >> *in a > >>>>>> word" [emphasis in the original] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation > >> *behind the > >>>>>> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and > >> language as > >>>>>> oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place the > >>>>>> approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present them > as > >>>>>> mutually complimentary approaches. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of > >>>>>> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within words. > >>>>>> Polyphonic notions > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 31 17:19:41 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 01:19:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> <1422748745267.38210@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1422753581382.87549@unm.edu> Hi mike, I'm sorry for confusion, and I will do my best to clarify. I am responding to a part of your previous post in this thread. You had written: *Meaning *is not just a property of thinking. Meaning penetrates [infuses] the structure of motor and perceptual activities. So we are talking, so to speak, about "zhivanie" followed by "perezhivanie" (living and living through, System 1 and System 2 in current cog sci jargon? I found that I couldn't place affect in this representation, and yet affect is present, particularly in "living and living through." I had thought there might have been a jump from thinking to "motor and perceptual activities," without a space/place for affect. So I was adding how I saw the affect as a part (constituted with) of this, in addition to motor and perceptual. It was something I was responding to in the words themselves. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 5:49 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] ?Annalisa -- The way you have posted your note leaves me clueless about why you are addressing me, or what it is that I wrote that you are addressing. We certainly agree that emotion and cognition are mutually constituted. Clue me into the message that gave rise to these thoughts and suggestions. mike ? On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 3:59 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi, > > I would like to offer (with kindness, not adversity) that I don't think > this is exactly right, mike, that meaning infuses the structure of motor > and perceptual activities, because we have not included affect here. The > body isn't a machine that just acts in activity without feeling. > > We know for example from Damasio that affect is required to reason, which > means we sense and feel *before* we reason, if it is allowable for me to > connect sensing with feeling and affect. Did Vygotsky know this? Or Shpet? > > I wonder why there hasn't been more climbing on board of Damasio's work. > This seems to be a huge discovery. > > It is my sense (!) that sensing is not solely perceptual, but references > memory as well. Learning and memory-making have important connections to > affective experiences. > > Is it possible that Vygotsky was using "sense" as a way to discuss > thinking with the body, but with feeling, in the moment of NOW as one faces > one's environment? That these impressions are made in a unique manner that > pertains only to the person. In other words, the process of > structure-creating is phylogenetic, the scenario in which this process > takes place is ontogenetic, and therefore the resulting manifestation is > particular to the person and one's environment? We all have faces with > certain properties: two eyes, a nose, a mouth, cheeks, etc., yet the face > itself is unique to each person, despite family resemblances. > > If this is so, it could explain experiences of "race" or "gender" without > there actually being a location for these experiences of "race" or "gender" > in the body (explained genetically, for example). In this way, the > experience is experienced by the experiencer at the moment of the > experience. It is not pre-programmed, not totally. > > Let me try this way: because I have a female body, I will not feel danger > any differently than other humans in a war zone of bullets flying, but I > may feel danger differently walking down a dark street that a man may not. > So it's because I have a female body, but not because I have a female body, > that I have these experiences. And yet on a given night I may not have this > experience at all walking down a dark street, because on that particular > night, I feel completely safe. > > If affect were not important, then I could not have these experiences that > I experience. It is this disconnect (removal of affect from the equation of > being myself) that perhaps is something along the lines of the > double-consciousness that African Americans experience (as Paul has > explained), but I certainly do not want to speak for African-American > experience, just that in my imagination, I can see connections and > parallels. > > This dualism (the split of thought and affect) can only be eradicated when > we reunite the affect (which actually has never been separated in > experience, but is separated out in the manner of propaganda functions, a > reality that is not really real, along the lines of C'est ne pas un pipe > and yet, here is a pipe). I believe that this is the antidote, to remove > the confusion by looking for wholeness in thought and affect. It is a > removal, in order to unite. > > Because we have 450 years of Descartes to face, it is a slippery endeavor. > Meaning: this isn't easy if we look inside our own culture which has no > means for filtering this out. This is why I offer it may be useful to look > to the East because I don't believe there is the same urgent project to > separate mind from body. This is my sense. I could be wrong. Those people > in the East are people too, after all, aren't they? :) What can be learned > from comparing and contrasting? I'd think a lot! > > Isn't it true that otherness can only arise by removal of affect? > Furthermore, isn't it possible to rationalize the unethical once the affect > has been removed? These are questions I would invite further exploration, > if there is interest. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 31 17:39:43 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 01:39:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> , Message-ID: <1422754783108.50208@unm.edu> Henry that video is just loopy! :) Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jan 31 17:42:42 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 17:42:42 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: <1422753581382.87549@unm.edu> References: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> <1422748745267.38210@unm.edu> <1422753581382.87549@unm.edu> Message-ID: Hi Annalisa Yes. I agree. How can you have meaning without affect? I am always deeply suspicious of any level 1-level 2 analysis, even as I use them. We murder to dissect. The introduction of ethics into the discussion echoes the conversations going on at LCHC and its relation to affect certainly seems worthwhile if others pick up this thread. mike On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi mike, > > I'm sorry for confusion, and I will do my best to clarify. I am responding > to a part of your previous post in this thread. You had written: > > *Meaning *is not just a property of thinking. Meaning penetrates [infuses] > the structure of motor and perceptual activities. > > So we are talking, so to speak, about "zhivanie" followed by > "perezhivanie" (living and living through, System 1 and System 2 in current > cog sci jargon? > > I found that I couldn't place affect in this representation, and yet > affect is present, particularly in "living and living through." I had > thought there might have been a jump from thinking to "motor and perceptual > activities," without a space/place for affect. So I was adding how I saw > the affect as a part (constituted with) of this, in addition to motor and > perceptual. > > It was something I was responding to in the words themselves. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 5:49 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or > not] > > ?Annalisa -- The way you have posted your note leaves me clueless about why > you are addressing me, or what it is that I wrote that you are addressing. > We certainly agree that emotion and cognition are mutually constituted. > > Clue me into the message that gave rise to these thoughts and suggestions. > mike > > ? > > On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 3:59 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I would like to offer (with kindness, not adversity) that I don't think > > this is exactly right, mike, that meaning infuses the structure of motor > > and perceptual activities, because we have not included affect here. The > > body isn't a machine that just acts in activity without feeling. > > > > We know for example from Damasio that affect is required to reason, which > > means we sense and feel *before* we reason, if it is allowable for me to > > connect sensing with feeling and affect. Did Vygotsky know this? Or > Shpet? > > > > I wonder why there hasn't been more climbing on board of Damasio's work. > > This seems to be a huge discovery. > > > > It is my sense (!) that sensing is not solely perceptual, but references > > memory as well. Learning and memory-making have important connections to > > affective experiences. > > > > Is it possible that Vygotsky was using "sense" as a way to discuss > > thinking with the body, but with feeling, in the moment of NOW as one > faces > > one's environment? That these impressions are made in a unique manner > that > > pertains only to the person. In other words, the process of > > structure-creating is phylogenetic, the scenario in which this process > > takes place is ontogenetic, and therefore the resulting manifestation is > > particular to the person and one's environment? We all have faces with > > certain properties: two eyes, a nose, a mouth, cheeks, etc., yet the face > > itself is unique to each person, despite family resemblances. > > > > If this is so, it could explain experiences of "race" or "gender" without > > there actually being a location for these experiences of "race" or > "gender" > > in the body (explained genetically, for example). In this way, the > > experience is experienced by the experiencer at the moment of the > > experience. It is not pre-programmed, not totally. > > > > Let me try this way: because I have a female body, I will not feel danger > > any differently than other humans in a war zone of bullets flying, but I > > may feel danger differently walking down a dark street that a man may > not. > > So it's because I have a female body, but not because I have a female > body, > > that I have these experiences. And yet on a given night I may not have > this > > experience at all walking down a dark street, because on that particular > > night, I feel completely safe. > > > > If affect were not important, then I could not have these experiences > that > > I experience. It is this disconnect (removal of affect from the equation > of > > being myself) that perhaps is something along the lines of the > > double-consciousness that African Americans experience (as Paul has > > explained), but I certainly do not want to speak for African-American > > experience, just that in my imagination, I can see connections and > > parallels. > > > > This dualism (the split of thought and affect) can only be eradicated > when > > we reunite the affect (which actually has never been separated in > > experience, but is separated out in the manner of propaganda functions, a > > reality that is not really real, along the lines of C'est ne pas un pipe > > and yet, here is a pipe). I believe that this is the antidote, to remove > > the confusion by looking for wholeness in thought and affect. It is a > > removal, in order to unite. > > > > Because we have 450 years of Descartes to face, it is a slippery > endeavor. > > Meaning: this isn't easy if we look inside our own culture which has no > > means for filtering this out. This is why I offer it may be useful to > look > > to the East because I don't believe there is the same urgent project to > > separate mind from body. This is my sense. I could be wrong. Those people > > in the East are people too, after all, aren't they? :) What can be > learned > > from comparing and contrasting? I'd think a lot! > > > > Isn't it true that otherness can only arise by removal of affect? > > Furthermore, isn't it possible to rationalize the unethical once the > affect > > has been removed? These are questions I would invite further exploration, > > if there is interest. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jan 31 17:44:50 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 17:44:50 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] You find the darndest things on Face book Message-ID: Pirates? What pirates? mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Daniels Cole Wertsch Cambridge Companion to Vygotsky.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2597544 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150131/719a6328/attachment-0001.pdf From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 31 18:41:31 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 02:41:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: You find the darndest things on Face book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1422758490615.47721@unm.edu> And now we will: shave his belly with a rusty razor! Early in the morning! From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 31 18:46:18 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 02:46:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> <1422748745267.38210@unm.edu> <1422753581382.87549@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1422758778013.75557@unm.edu> Thanks mike! I hope expansion of this discussion will happen. I will begin a new thread?. Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 6:42 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] Hi Annalisa Yes. I agree. How can you have meaning without affect? I am always deeply suspicious of any level 1-level 2 analysis, even as I use them. We murder to dissect. The introduction of ethics into the discussion echoes the conversations going on at LCHC and its relation to affect certainly seems worthwhile if others pick up this thread. mike On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi mike, > > I'm sorry for confusion, and I will do my best to clarify. I am responding > to a part of your previous post in this thread. You had written: > > *Meaning *is not just a property of thinking. Meaning penetrates [infuses] > the structure of motor and perceptual activities. > > So we are talking, so to speak, about "zhivanie" followed by > "perezhivanie" (living and living through, System 1 and System 2 in current > cog sci jargon? > > I found that I couldn't place affect in this representation, and yet > affect is present, particularly in "living and living through." I had > thought there might have been a jump from thinking to "motor and perceptual > activities," without a space/place for affect. So I was adding how I saw > the affect as a part (constituted with) of this, in addition to motor and > perceptual. > > It was something I was responding to in the words themselves. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 5:49 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or > not] > > ?Annalisa -- The way you have posted your note leaves me clueless about why > you are addressing me, or what it is that I wrote that you are addressing. > We certainly agree that emotion and cognition are mutually constituted. > > Clue me into the message that gave rise to these thoughts and suggestions. > mike > > ? > > On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 3:59 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I would like to offer (with kindness, not adversity) that I don't think > > this is exactly right, mike, that meaning infuses the structure of motor > > and perceptual activities, because we have not included affect here. The > > body isn't a machine that just acts in activity without feeling. > > > > We know for example from Damasio that affect is required to reason, which > > means we sense and feel *before* we reason, if it is allowable for me to > > connect sensing with feeling and affect. Did Vygotsky know this? Or > Shpet? > > > > I wonder why there hasn't been more climbing on board of Damasio's work. > > This seems to be a huge discovery. > > > > It is my sense (!) that sensing is not solely perceptual, but references > > memory as well. Learning and memory-making have important connections to > > affective experiences. > > > > Is it possible that Vygotsky was using "sense" as a way to discuss > > thinking with the body, but with feeling, in the moment of NOW as one > faces > > one's environment? That these impressions are made in a unique manner > that > > pertains only to the person. In other words, the process of > > structure-creating is phylogenetic, the scenario in which this process > > takes place is ontogenetic, and therefore the resulting manifestation is > > particular to the person and one's environment? We all have faces with > > certain properties: two eyes, a nose, a mouth, cheeks, etc., yet the face > > itself is unique to each person, despite family resemblances. > > > > If this is so, it could explain experiences of "race" or "gender" without > > there actually being a location for these experiences of "race" or > "gender" > > in the body (explained genetically, for example). In this way, the > > experience is experienced by the experiencer at the moment of the > > experience. It is not pre-programmed, not totally. > > > > Let me try this way: because I have a female body, I will not feel danger > > any differently than other humans in a war zone of bullets flying, but I > > may feel danger differently walking down a dark street that a man may > not. > > So it's because I have a female body, but not because I have a female > body, > > that I have these experiences. And yet on a given night I may not have > this > > experience at all walking down a dark street, because on that particular > > night, I feel completely safe. > > > > If affect were not important, then I could not have these experiences > that > > I experience. It is this disconnect (removal of affect from the equation > of > > being myself) that perhaps is something along the lines of the > > double-consciousness that African Americans experience (as Paul has > > explained), but I certainly do not want to speak for African-American > > experience, just that in my imagination, I can see connections and > > parallels. > > > > This dualism (the split of thought and affect) can only be eradicated > when > > we reunite the affect (which actually has never been separated in > > experience, but is separated out in the manner of propaganda functions, a > > reality that is not really real, along the lines of C'est ne pas un pipe > > and yet, here is a pipe). I believe that this is the antidote, to remove > > the confusion by looking for wholeness in thought and affect. It is a > > removal, in order to unite. > > > > Because we have 450 years of Descartes to face, it is a slippery > endeavor. > > Meaning: this isn't easy if we look inside our own culture which has no > > means for filtering this out. This is why I offer it may be useful to > look > > to the East because I don't believe there is the same urgent project to > > separate mind from body. This is my sense. I could be wrong. Those people > > in the East are people too, after all, aren't they? :) What can be > learned > > from comparing and contrasting? I'd think a lot! > > > > Isn't it true that otherness can only arise by removal of affect? > > Furthermore, isn't it possible to rationalize the unethical once the > affect > > has been removed? These are questions I would invite further exploration, > > if there is interest. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 31 18:51:31 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 02:51:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] The ethics of affects and the affect of the ethical In-Reply-To: References: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> <1422748745267.38210@unm.edu> <1422753581382.87549@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1422759090911.10953@unm.edu> Hello fellow xmcars: To echo the questions I'd posted on the previous thread: "Isn't it true that otherness can only arise by removal of affect? Furthermore, isn't it possible to rationalize the unethical once the affect has been removed? These are questions I would invite further exploration, if there is interest." Kind regards, Annalisa On Saturday, January 31, 2015 6:42 PM, mike cole wrote: Hi Annalisa Yes. I agree. How can you have meaning without affect? I am always deeply suspicious of any level 1-level 2 analysis, even as I use them. We murder to dissect. The introduction of ethics into the discussion echoes the conversations going on at LCHC and its relation to affect certainly seems worthwhile if others pick up this thread. mike On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi mike, > > I'm sorry for confusion, and I will do my best to clarify. I am responding > to a part of your previous post in this thread. You had written: > > *Meaning *is not just a property of thinking. Meaning penetrates [infuses] > the structure of motor and perceptual activities. > > So we are talking, so to speak, about "zhivanie" followed by > "perezhivanie" (living and living through, System 1 and System 2 in current > cog sci jargon? > > I found that I couldn't place affect in this representation, and yet > affect is present, particularly in "living and living through." I had > thought there might have been a jump from thinking to "motor and perceptual > activities," without a space/place for affect. So I was adding how I saw > the affect as a part (constituted with) of this, in addition to motor and > perceptual. > > It was something I was responding to in the words themselves. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > >On Saturday, January 31, 2015 5:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > ?Annalisa -- The way you have posted your note leaves me clueless about why > you are addressing me, or what it is that I wrote that you are addressing. > We certainly agree that emotion and cognition are mutually constituted. > > Clue me into the message that gave rise to these thoughts and suggestions. > mike > > ? > > On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 3:59 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I would like to offer (with kindness, not adversity) that I don't think > > this is exactly right, mike, that meaning infuses the structure of motor > > and perceptual activities, because we have not included affect here. The > > body isn't a machine that just acts in activity without feeling. > > > > We know for example from Damasio that affect is required to reason, which > > means we sense and feel *before* we reason, if it is allowable for me to > > connect sensing with feeling and affect. Did Vygotsky know this? Or Shpet? > > > > I wonder why there hasn't been more climbing on board of Damasio's work. > > This seems to be a huge discovery. > > > > It is my sense (!) that sensing is not solely perceptual, but references > > memory as well. Learning and memory-making have important connections to > > affective experiences. > > > > Is it possible that Vygotsky was using "sense" as a way to discuss > > thinking with the body, but with feeling, in the moment of NOW as one faces > > one's environment? That these impressions are made in a unique manner that > > pertains only to the person. In other words, the process of > > structure-creating is phylogenetic, the scenario in which this process > > takes place is ontogenetic, and therefore the resulting manifestation is > > particular to the person and one's environment? We all have faces with > > certain properties: two eyes, a nose, a mouth, cheeks, etc., yet the face > > itself is unique to each person, despite family resemblances. > > > > If this is so, it could explain experiences of "race" or "gender" without > > there actually being a location for these experiences of "race" or "gender" > > in the body (explained genetically, for example). In this way, the > > experience is experienced by the experiencer at the moment of the > > experience. It is not pre-programmed, not totally. > > > > Let me try this way: because I have a female body, I will not feel danger > > any differently than other humans in a war zone of bullets flying, but I > > may feel danger differently walking down a dark street that a man may not. > > So it's because I have a female body, but not because I have a female body, > > that I have these experiences. And yet on a given night I may not have this > > experience at all walking down a dark street, because on that particular > > night, I feel completely safe. > > > > If affect were not important, then I could not have these experiences that > > I experience. It is this disconnect (removal of affect from the equation of > > being myself) that perhaps is something along the lines of the > > double-consciousness that African Americans experience (as Paul has > > explained), but I certainly do not want to speak for African-American > > experience, just that in my imagination, I can see connections and > > parallels. > > > > This dualism (the split of thought and affect) can only be eradicated when > > we reunite the affect (which actually has never been separated in > > experience, but is separated out in the manner of propaganda functions, a > > reality that is not really real, along the lines of C'est ne pas un pipe > > and yet, here is a pipe). I believe that this is the antidote, to remove > > the confusion by looking for wholeness in thought and affect. It is a > > removal, in order to unite. > > > > Because we have 450 years of Descartes to face, it is a slippery endeavor. > > Meaning: this isn't easy if we look inside our own culture which has no > > means for filtering this out. This is why I offer it may be useful to look > > to the East because I don't believe there is the same urgent project to > > separate mind from body. This is my sense. I could be wrong. Those people > > in the East are people too, after all, aren't they? :) What can be learned > > from comparing and contrasting? I'd think a lot! > > > > Isn't it true that otherness can only arise by removal of affect? > > Furthermore, isn't it possible to rationalize the unethical once the affect > > has been removed? These are questions I would invite further exploration, > > if there is interest. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jan 31 18:56:51 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 18:56:51 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Imagination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, Kobito theory is an *amazing* imagination based theory. The Japanese infused "sense" of inner form as deeply,* deeply *participatory. The way of projecting and becoming the presence of the object. I noticed that the earlier discussion on the list with Jessica Benjamin's notion of "surrender" to a third space could be linked to Kobito theory and Noddings sense of "caring for" as surrender [not submission]. However, Sayeki's introduction where he guides us through the process of entering the inner form of the "teacup" and come to "feel" through attunement the history and origin of the teacup as an imaginal enactment is moving "beyond" our Western notions of objects. He is saying "We become the object and feel what the object feels. Thank you for the Cambridge book on Vygotsky. I would recommend others reading Vladimir Zinchenko's chapter 9 in conjunction with Sayeki's kobito theory and try to "feel" the intonation and rhythm of this Japanese way of understanding inner form. I think Zinchenko would agree with Kobito theory as his chapter is also exploring the inner form of objects. Peg, thank you for these abstracts. The question of "ethics" as enacting particular "values" and how we "ought" to act is highlighted in Kobito's ethic of care of all existence through imaginal participation. I would suggest that "third spaces" as ethical imaginal "spaces" [zones] share this ethic of "caring for". The notion of "hybrid" spaces as inclusive imaginal places becoming forms and becoming actualized [ subjective, intersubjective objective is embodied in the story of the shrine-carpenter who imagines each tree continuing to "live" in the wooden shrine that has existed for a 1000 years. There is a deep wisdom/knowledge in caring for that in the act transforms the person who "surrenders" to the inner form and its geneology. Larry On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 4:30 PM, mike cole wrote: > Attached is a paper by Yutaka Sayeki, our long time colleague brought to > mind by Peg's note on the death of Naoki Ueno. > As you will see, his work has everything to do with imagination, as the > book title indicates. > > Sayeki-san's "imagination based" theory is pretty amazing. At least > encountering it was for me. I actually solved a physics problem of the kind > I ALWAYS blow. The Newsletter article referenced in his talk gives a couple > of concrete data examples. For discussion if people are interested. > > mike > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 31 19:06:35 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 03:06:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Imagination In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <1422759994419.37857@unm.edu> Is feeling "surrendering" or just feeling? If feeling is just feeling, then is there a need to surrender? Kind regards, Annalisa From bferholt@gmail.com Sat Jan 31 19:33:52 2015 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 22:33:52 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Imagination In-Reply-To: <1422759994419.37857@unm.edu> References: <1422759994419.37857@unm.edu> Message-ID: I have been thinking all weekend about Yitang Zhang's description of solving a math problem that had not been solved in over a century. It was just in the New Yorker and it was odd to read both what Mike and Peg sent, above. and this in one weekend. They both remind me of Martin Buber's I and You relationship with the cat ... relationships with numbers, cats and teacups sounds like Alice in Wonderland. Zhang was in a friend's back yard, taking a several week break from thinking about the problem, and then, he says, "I see numbers, equations, and something even -- its hard to say what it is. Something very special. Maybe numbers, maybe equations -- a mystery, maybe a vision." Buber says of, perhaps, surrendering -- the power of exclusiveness has seized me. And then there is play, which is often dialogue with an object, no? Always? When Harriet the spy tries out being an onion, for instance. THanks for these, Beth On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 10:06 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Is feeling "surrendering" or just feeling? > > If feeling is just feeling, then is there a need to surrender? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jan 31 19:37:26 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 19:37:26 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Imagination In-Reply-To: <1422759994419.37857@unm.edu> References: <1422759994419.37857@unm.edu> Message-ID: I would suggest it is a "moral" or "ethical" disposition as a way of "approaching" the other that is asymmetrical and enacts a relational ontology. As I read Kobito Theory it also is an active process of imaginal "projection" that *ex*presses a deep felt relation towards the object. Surrender is not a "feeling" it is an active process of "approaching" what is other and entering into a deep engagement with what is other through this act of imagination. However by this act of "surrender" [not submission] to a thirs place it is possible to "realize" [open an imaginal space] AS a place in which BOTH persons enact the realized "hybrid" third place and in this enactment experience a felt connection to a novel formation. I understand this "place" in a way similar to imagining the "inner form" of the teacup. It is an ethical act. It is radical perspective if we have a relation to the imaginal informed by empirical notions of some phenomena as objective and real and other phenomena are subjective and private. Kobito Theory is enacting a different ethical focus and approach to the other [material and social] Larry On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 7:06 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Is feeling "surrendering" or just feeling? > > If feeling is just feeling, then is there a need to surrender? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From ewall@umich.edu Sat Jan 31 19:43:28 2015 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 21:43:28 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Imagination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <744F5ABA-629B-4115-8E51-8B517787825B@umich.edu> Mike This may not be exactly what you are pointing at, but I always tell young people, who are beginning to take reasonable courses in college level physics, to more or less forget the mathematics and put themselves into, more or less concretely, what is happening. They usually don't believe me until after taking a course or so. Something like this works in mathematics also, but the 'objects' are less tangible (this is probably not the right word). Ed On Jan 31, 2015, at 6:30 PM, mike cole wrote: > Attached is a paper by Yutaka Sayeki, our long time colleague brought to > mind by Peg's note on the death of Naoki Ueno. > As you will see, his work has everything to do with imagination, as the > book title indicates. > > Sayeki-san's "imagination based" theory is pretty amazing. At least > encountering it was for me. I actually solved a physics problem of the kind > I ALWAYS blow. The Newsletter article referenced in his talk gives a couple > of concrete data examples. For discussion if people are interested. > > mike > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 31 20:18:25 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 04:18:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Imagination In-Reply-To: References: <1422759994419.37857@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1422764304371.62253@unm.edu> Dear Beth! Don't go away! I would suggest that when there is a collision of sameness in the timelessness of now, that it means that there is a now-ness that for the most part of all infinite parts (objects like onions) exploding all about, means above all all-ness, that you, above all, are on the right track! :) This means that the sychronicity of events is not something that can be planned, nor can it be *merely* a coincidence, but that there is a flow of events (in the stream of time) that means there is meaning there and here and everywhere all at once! This is to say that consciousness is not "inside" us or that everything "outside" is nothingness, but rather that consciousness is ALL THERE IS: there is no inside/outside. We are swimming in consciousness, a knowingness of all that was, is, and, will be. If there is no inside nor outside, then how does one surrender? What does one surrender to? There is just is-ness, which is a vision of joy! It's about the connection to the thing... Kind regards, Annalisa On Saturday, January 31, 2015 8:33 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote: I have been thinking all weekend about Yitang Zhang's description of solving a math problem that had not been solved in over a century. It was just in the New Yorker and it was odd to read both what Mike and Peg sent, above. and this in one weekend. They both remind me of Martin Buber's I and You relationship with the cat ... relationships with numbers, cats and teacups sounds like Alice in Wonderland. Zhang was in a friend's back yard, taking a several week break from thinking about the problem, and then, he says, "I see numbers, equations, and something even -- its hard to say what it is. Something very special. Maybe numbers, maybe equations -- a mystery, maybe a vision." Buber says of, perhaps, surrendering -- the power of exclusiveness has seized me. And then there is play, which is often dialogue with an object, no? Always? When Harriet the spy tries out being an onion, for instance. THanks for these, Beth On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 10:06 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Is feeling "surrendering" or just feeling? > > If feeling is just feeling, then is there a need to surrender? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From dkirsh@lsu.edu Sat Jan 31 20:35:47 2015 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 04:35:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Let me add my thanks, Henry. And for those who've not caught Douglas Hofstadter's literary rendering, this will surely enchant. http://genius.com/Douglas-hofstadter-crab-canon-annotated Achilles, Tortoise, and Crab are characters who reappear throughout Hofstadter's Pulitzer Prize winning book, from which Crab Canon is taken: Hofstadter, D. R. (1979). G?del, Escher, Bach: An eternal golden braid. New York: Basic Books. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 7:40 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] Henry that video is just loopy! :) Annalisa -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 7:06 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] Henry- That video of the bach mobius strip was AMAZING! Aside from the pure pleasure of the music, the magic of music's underlying structure being unfolded for you by coordination of visually represented flowing movement using the spatiality of the musical notation, illustrates a really important example of inter-modal coordination through artifacts all with their own looooooong (in some cases) histories. That is an experience well worth sharing! Thanks. mike On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 2:43 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Larry, > I guess it was you who got the Mobius strip into this thread a few > days ago, which I geriatically and vaguely reacalled after my wife > showed me earlier today the attached from Vimeo. Until now, I have > never really understood where Bach?s Crab Cannon got its name. I love > how the video makes that clear. Some years back a musician friend of > mine told me that he saw his guitar fretboard like a mobius stip, no > top or bottom, an Eternal Golden Thread, as Hofstadter would have it. > Many years ago I remember Vera John Steiner's writing and talking > about the INTERLACEMENT of biological and cultural factors in human > development. How beautiful this cluster of metaphors. How generative. > How creative. It just occurred to me that the efforts on another > thread to create an architecture for a data base seem to be working > for a mobius kind of seamlessness. Don?t bother stop me. It will all pass by tomorrow night. > Henry > > http://vimeo.com/69715960 > > > > > > On Jan 25, 2015, at 9:35 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > I have imaginally been walking with Zinchenko who is telling me > > about his chats with Schpet and Vygotsky. > > Zinchenko is engaged in rehabilitating the centrality of the meaning > > of "meaning" to processes of phenomenological historical > > understanding, > and > > interpretation. His conversation is in the form of a rejoinder [or > > joining back] with Vygotsky and Schpet with who he wants to bring > > out > their > > mutually shared thesis on the relation of thought and word. > > Zinchenko uses metaphors to poetically embody his attempt to have > > "meanings" more modest place with Vygotsky take on a more prominent > > and central quality. > > > > Zinchenko wrote: > > "A good image for the mutual relationships of meaning and sense is a > Mobius > > strip. In the process of understanding or thinking, we encounter > > oppositely encountered *acts of making sense of meanings and sense > > giving meaningful signs to senses *[authors emphasis], which are > > transformed > into > > each other. In Russian, 'meaning' ['znachenie'] and 'sign' ['znak'] > > have > a > > common root and, hence, the untranslated italicized phrase sounds > > like a Russian pun. On the outer side of the strip may be meaning, > > which is transformed into sense as a result of the act of making > > sense, and this > > *becomes* the internal side of the *same* strip. Assigning a > > meaningful sign to sense makes an *analogous *transformation. > > Anyway, it was > highly > > productive for Vygotsky to change the *focus* from *'meaning*' to > sense. *Such > > a change *brings his views closer to those of Shpet. [page 228] > > > > I will pause here but want to point out how the metaphor of the > > Mobius strip has a similar quality to the hermeneutical movement of > > "fusions of horizons" > > > > Larry > > > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > >> Thank you, Martin! > >> Henry > >> > >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 1:49 PM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> This is the information I have, Henry. > >>> > >>> Freiberger-Sheikholeslami, E. (1984). Gustav G. Shpet: > >>> Hermeneutical > >> logic and philosophical semiotics. In J. Deely (Ed.), Semiotics > >> 1984 > (pp. > >> 381-391). Bloomington: Semiotic Society of America. > >>> > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >>> > >>>> Martin, > >>>> Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings > >>>> and > >> dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and > >> his context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the > >> eyes of hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes > >> article was written? > >>>> Henry > >>>> > >>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer < > >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as > >>>>> Larry > >> points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a > >> little > >> background: > >>>>> > >>>>> Martin > >>>>> > >>>>> On Jan > >>>>> 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss > >> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. > >>>>>> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that > Shpet > >> and > >>>>>> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". > >>>>>> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet > >> disagreed. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph > >>>>>> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the > Approaches > >> of L. > >>>>>> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain > >>>>>> [which I associated with the other thread on rain] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there > >>>>>> is a long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is > >>>>>> hard to overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along > >>>>>> with Aleksandr > >> Potebnya. > >>>>>> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the various > >>>>>> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their preference > >> to the > >>>>>> word, although they understood it differently. Let us start > >>>>>> from Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous > >>>>>> in > thought > >> is > >>>>>> successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a > >>>>>> thought > >> with a > >>>>>> cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition > >>>>>> from thought to language is a very complicated process of > >>>>>> *dismemberment* > >> of a > >>>>>> thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, > >>>>>> Vygotsky > >> wrote, > >>>>>> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the > >> motivation of > >>>>>> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If > >>>>>> something > >> can *pour > >>>>>> itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can > >> understand the > >>>>>> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is > *expressed > >> *in a > >>>>>> word" [emphasis in the original] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation > >> *behind the > >>>>>> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and > >> language as > >>>>>> oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place > >>>>>> the approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to > >>>>>> present them > as > >>>>>> mutually complimentary approaches. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of > >>>>>> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within words. > >>>>>> Polyphonic notions > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jan 31 22:00:18 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 22:00:18 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Imagination In-Reply-To: <1422764304371.62253@unm.edu> References: <1422759994419.37857@unm.edu> <1422764304371.62253@unm.edu> Message-ID: I am imagining Yutaka Sayeki's presentation of participation by entering the inner form of the teacup and then moving to the external vantage point but with a new "sense" of possibility and a new approach to the teacup as object as enacting a Mobius strip type of oscillation? Also the way Yutaka Sayeki's connected Noddings notion of "caring for" and the shrine carpenter's "caring for" the shrine [object] as showing us a "disposition" or character type that embodies "bestowing care" on the "other" [material or social objects] and in this way, approaching the other through creating a "mutual space" that the participants come to inhabit as an "actual place" The possible and the actual as a Mobius strip. Peg shared the ethical principles of Sayeki's articulation of kobito theory in order to arrive at "deep understanding": In kobito theory as elaborated by Sayeki, "point of view" and active participation in different modes of activities (such as "throwing in, " "acting out," and "feeling about") is considered to be crucial for exercising roles of actors, viewers (audience and directors) in order to get deep understanding. Larry On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Dear Beth! > > Don't go away! > > I would suggest that when there is a collision of sameness in the > timelessness of now, that it means that there is a now-ness that for the > most part of all infinite parts (objects like onions) exploding all about, > means above all all-ness, that you, above all, are on the right track! :) > > This means that the sychronicity of events is not something that can be > planned, nor can it be *merely* a coincidence, but that there is a flow of > events (in the stream of time) that means there is meaning there and here > and everywhere all at once! > > This is to say that consciousness is not "inside" us or that everything > "outside" is nothingness, but rather that consciousness is ALL THERE IS: > there is no inside/outside. > > We are swimming in consciousness, a knowingness of all that was, is, and, > will be. > > If there is no inside nor outside, then how does one surrender? What does > one surrender to? > > There is just is-ness, which is a vision of joy! > > It's about the connection to the thing... > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > On Saturday, January 31, 2015 8:33 PM, Beth Ferholt > wrote: > > I have been thinking all weekend about Yitang Zhang's description of > solving a math problem that had not been solved in over a century. It was > just in the New Yorker and it was odd to read both what Mike and Peg sent, > above. and this in one weekend. They both remind me of Martin Buber's I > and You relationship with the cat ... relationships with numbers, cats and > teacups sounds like Alice in Wonderland. > > Zhang was in a friend's back yard, taking a several week break from > thinking about the problem, and then, he says, "I see numbers, equations, > and something even -- its hard to say what it is. Something very special. > Maybe numbers, maybe equations -- a mystery, maybe a vision." > > Buber says of, perhaps, surrendering -- the power of exclusiveness has > seized me. > > And then there is play, which is often dialogue with an object, no? > Always? When Harriet the spy tries out being an onion, for instance. > > THanks for these, > Beth > > On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 10:06 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > Is feeling "surrendering" or just feeling? > > > > If feeling is just feeling, then is there a need to surrender? > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Assistant Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jan 31 22:46:29 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 06:46:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Imagination In-Reply-To: References: <1422759994419.37857@unm.edu> <1422764304371.62253@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1422773189261.94017@unm.edu> Yutaka Sayeki's method of throwing the self into the cup is a refreshing cup of tea! :) I might up the ante by imagining the cup caring for me. The shrine caring for the carpenter. The listserv caring for the subscribers of the list! :)